Talk:Tamil Nadu (1983: Doomsday)

This is the right page, Imp? If not... sorry, I mistook it for another. GunsnadGlory 19:39, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

This is it. Just readying up the page for some serious editing by 3 editors. :D Imperium Guy 19:44, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

3? oh, you mean LG. I found a Coat of Arms (sorta). Hope you like it! GunsnadGlory 19:46, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Population? 2 million?

'Prime Minister'...Yusuf Eqbal?

maybe not that title, course... GunsnadGlory 19:53, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Pop, probably. Leader... I think the present one might be good. However, that is debateable. We will have formation date in 1984. Lets see what else! :D Imperium Guy 20:12, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

I thought Tamilian Rupee was out? GunsnadGlory 01:49, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Pakistan is a greater enemy of India and it uses the Rupee, so I think the Rupee could work here aswell. Imperium Guy 12:59, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Thing with that one, is that the rupee is in place in both very much as a legacy of the Brits. I really have to think that these guys would use something different. Lordganon 14:35, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm kinda clueless on what to have as a currency. :/ Imperium Guy 14:11, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'll dredge something up. Lordganon 21:08, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Population?
Now, of course I realize you just created the page and it is a work in progress, but OTL, Tamil Nadu has over 72 million people living in the state. How in the world would that be reduced to such a small number? Vladivostok 20:39, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, did not know that. Ta!! :D Imperium Guy 23:46, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ack. My bad. Still, 72 million seems a bit too high, in the initial die-off. 65 million seems more... reasonable GunsnadGlory 00:21, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

There wouldn't be a die off...maybe people would stop having kids but nobody would starve or die of radiation. Although India has poor living conditions there wouldn't be any starvations other than maybe a couple hundred peasants who get screwed out of food but 72 million seems reasonable. Arstar 00:33, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about, Arstar? There was starvation and a major civil war in India post-DD. As I've said before, please read the articles.

I've given it a population based on what I noted for Chennai on the Cities page, and extrapolated on a comparison basis from there to the state population otl.

Lordganon 02:07, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

LG what crack are you smoking? You may think you've read every article and know every detail but''' you dont. '''Since Mitro's step down as the de facto leader of the 83DD community you just constantly ridicule everyone on everything which is why most of the 83DD folks are gone.

have and read and re-read the articles over time and I didn't remember seeing anything about starvation. But just to make sure I was right I decided to double-check and NOWEHERE is "starvation" mentioned. Food riots are mentioned, but that is much different from flat-out starvation. As I understand India exports billions in food OTL so although there'd be shortages the principle we use when writing American nation-state articles of throwing in random starvations to make it seem more apocalyptic just wouldn't cut it in India. Arstar 07:18, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Now I know you're trying to be mad at LG, but the UIP article states this: With a massive drop-off in food imports, and fertilizers, a food shortage began to occur.

That does seem to imply, at least to me, that there was not enough food. Furthermore, through a quick Wikipedia search, I found this line:  In India, the second-most populous country in the world, 30 million people have been added to the ranks of the hungry since the mid-1990s and 46% of children are underweight. And that is just in OTL.--Vladivostok 08:41, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, Vlad. Thank you for that, lol.

Arstar, India imports a lot of its food, and a ton of fertilizer too. It's only reached any form of self-sufficiency food-wise - and that, in things like wheat and rice - in the last few years, and even that is highly debatable. Vlad's figures were worse in the 1980s, too.

In the period from 2001-2003, India had 217 million undernourished people. That's after years of progress since 1983. And those are conservative figures. Screw with the food supply at all, and it's going to be really bad.

Quit saying things like that, Arstar. Most of us are still here. And those that are not have absolutely nothing to do with me.

And, for the record? I knew that the article said that. Guess why? Because I wrote it. Quit acting like you've read everything that's gone on since you left.

Lordganon 08:57, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

If people have flamed enough, I would like to know a number please. Imperium Guy 12:32, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Barely 60 million seems a little low, LG.... Arstar is right (somewhat) in that it only says there is a food shortage... not a real starvation. That ought to be reworded (though far be it for me to contradict canon), as of course a massive famine would set in place. Still, 12 million dead seems a little extreme... GunsnadGlory 01:47, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Arstar's not at all right - he missed the whole thing entirely, quite frankly.

Imp, I attached a number when I first posted on this section.

It's pretty reasonable, Guns. Food and fertilizer imports are going to be heavily disrupted, for at least a year, along with the movement of such goods in general. Add large-scale fighting on top of that - with a lot of violence on the Other Indians in the region by the Tamils - and it's going to fall badly. The growth rate's also not going to be nearly as high as otl, so the recovery will be slower, too.

Lordganon 09:47, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Was just about to add that, lol. But just to add another factor, it is also not inconceivable that a lot of people would simply move from Tamil Nadu, due to this violence, not agreeing with the countries new found independence, etc.--Vladivostok 09:51, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, oops! I think that around 8 million died while 4 million migrated to explain the lower population. :D Imperium Guy 14:49, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

The state had a population in 1983, based on a population of 48,408,077 in the 1981 census, and an average growth rate (extrapolated and rounded from the 1981-2011 figures) of around 1.63% a year, of 50 million.

Now, post-1983, that growth rate is going to be decreasing the first couple of years, and then grow practically nothing for the next few years, until around 1989, or so. And it's going to be reduced until the last few years, I'm sure. Heck, this last couple years it's probably a little higher, given the changes in global climate.

Assuming eight million deaths, which I agree is likely a decent number, and a decreased rate of growth (less food, worse medical care, more fighting, migrants, higher mortality rates, etc.), the population works out nicely.

Lordganon 15:35, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, it does. :D Imperium Guy 15:48, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, under that argument probably.

As for the 'President', still, wouldn't Yusuf be a better candidate? 98.14.126.83 01:25, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

He'd not be in the area. He was in the city of Ranchi at Doomsday, and given things... I have to doubt he'd even remain alive today.

Lordganon 02:38, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Leadership, and Currency
Haven't got to the currency bit yet, but will add it under this topic later on.

Anyhoo....

Way I figure it, while rebels would likely be the overall cause of separation, they'd no doubt be joined by a fair portion of the actual government.

I suspect that most that went over would be from the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam Party, and similar ones.

So....

First leader, likely Muthuvel Karunanidhi. Given his age, and everything else, I rather doubt he'd be in power at all today, or even alive. He'd likely have attempted to keep up some semblance of democracy, though this would have slipped as time went on, given the chaos, and been lost.

A few options for the current leader, in the order of likelihood that I suspect:

T. P. M. Mohideen Khan

M. K. Stalin

Durai Murugan

Thangam Thennarasu

I. Periyasamy

Thoughts?

Lordganon 08:24, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

All righty... currency.

Most states, doesn't seem to be much on what they used.

Overall....

There's 7 other ones I see mentioned. Note, that they do all have Indian origins, so take what I have here with a grain of salt. They are:

Hon - no idea exactly what it is/was.

Paisa - the equivalent of cents under the rupee.

Mohor - A denomination of the Nepalese Rupee.

Sukaa - Another denomination of the Nepalese Rupee.

Shivrai - Special coins made for the coronation of Chhratapati Shivaji Maharaj.

Pie - A former denomination of the Indian Rupee mid-century, out of use 1957.

Anna - A former denomination of the Indian rupee mid-century, out of use 195. Pages also list translations into Tamil, and it seems to have some meaning today, unlike the rest.

How would "Anna" sound, subdivided into "Pies" and "Paisa"?

Lordganon 08:39, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking that Anna would be the best one. In our time, 16 annas make up a rupee and annas are still used by people when they talk abot money. So I think Anna, divided into pies and paisa is the way forward. As for the leader, who do you think would be the likeliest leader? That would be our leader as I know nothing about the people mentioned. :D Imperium Guy 12:39, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed on the "Anna."

I believe, myself, that T. P. M. Mohideen Khan would be the best candidate for the leadership.

Lordganon 17:13, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it looks good. I'll just wait until Guns gets round... (hopefully sooner than later!!) Just out of curiousity, was there actually someone named MK Stalin?? :O Imperium Guy 22:07, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, yes there is. Look him up on wikipedia, lol. Lordganon 07:16, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. Various events prevented me from coming on till now.

I agree that Khan would be best, and same for anna. GunsnadGlory 17:25, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Economy
TN has all the basis for a 'thriving' economy (I imagine some industry would have been rebuilt), but would the govt allow free trade? Depending on the kind of restrictions the dictator places on the economy, it could thrive or it could die.

Speaking of dictators, when this rebellion takes place, maybe the rebels will agree to back down on the issue of re-unification in return for a democracy... GunsnadGlory 19:19, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it would allow "free" trade. I think its possible that it might trade with the SAC and maybe other survivor nations, not the UIP though.

When the rebellion takes place, it will be a fight to the death, I don't think people who have waited all their life for unification would want to "give it up" for democracy in Tamil Nadu. :D Imperium Guy 19:24, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'd imagine some free trade, but about as much as most countries of this nature allow. With the SAC, of course, getting all access.

You're both reading more into a rebellion than would be the case. The non-Tamil minority is the segment of the population that a portion of which would be geared in the direction of rebelling. Somewhere a touch less than the 11% that is non-Tamil otl.

Any rebellion by these guys has no chance of succeeding. But, they'll try anyways.

Lordganon 00:08, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

It could survive.

If the UIP sees an opportunity.

GunsnadGlory 02:00, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

The UIP would be nuts to go after these guys like that. These are the strongest remnant besides the UIP itself, and any rebellion won't last very long, honestly. Lordganon 02:10, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well, they were some Tamil elements as well, around 6-9%. Whether the rebellion will succeed is unknown. We will only know when the time comes. :D Imperium Guy 23:53, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Even in the unlikely event some Tamils support it, am open rebellion has virtually no chance of winning in this context. Lordganon 08:09, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The UIP would have a chance. even 5% of the population revolting is an excellent time to invade, and they have a ready made excuse: peacekeeping. GunsnadGlory 18:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

As I said, when the time comes, it will all be seen. Until then, things will go as normal in both countries. :D Imperium Guy 19:53, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that they wouldn't do it. The rebels wouldn't have a good track record, given the make-up of this nation, and intervening on their behalf would be bad internationally.

Add to that that by the time the UIP could even try it, these guys would have crushed the rebellion.

Lordganon 00:26, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Who says they have to do it now. Let them bide their time, to a time more suitable (ages away...). :D Imperium Guy 17:39, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

That could, as Imp said, be decided when the rebellion comes, but yes, I see your point. GunsnadGlory 19:59, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Indian Coalition
I feel it makes little to no sense that all the remainders would simply abandon each other to fate.

Some sort of Coalition, between Andhra Pradesh, Tulu Nadu, and the 4th state (I don't remember its name) would probably occur. Together, they might present a bolder front to the UIP, which would now be EVEN MORE hesitant towards attacking.

Thouhgts? GunsnadGlory 22:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. The idea is good, however the countries are Nationalist. Maybe some sort of Federation or Confederation might do, where the nation can govern themselves, but more pressing matters like the military are decided by the Confederation/Federation government. More coming up soon... :D Imperium Guy 13:17, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

No way on all counts. Imp's got it more or less dead on, plus most of these guys aren't going to like each other at all, either.

In their minds, the SAC links would be more than enough. However, in reality..... not true at all.

Lordganon 14:27, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I meant exactly what Imp said. xD 98.14.126.83 00:30, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Fertilizers, Foodstuffs, and Medicines
I pointed this out and I will put it here again that there's no way any nations would be trading those items in the eighties or nineties. Every area of the world that survived was second/third world country so if they somehow managed to survive they would definitely hoard any goods as possible, especially in Southeast Asia where famine occurs regularly. While to you it may seem practical so your nation can grow remember this isn't a roleplay and we have to try to be as realistic as possible. Your gonna have to delete those lines on both this page and Gansu. Arstar 21:04, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Who said anyhting about them geing able to smooth sail through the 90s? They have only managed to grow crops successfully in the later half, having to rely on SAC aid. And it either LG or Guns who put that line there, not me. Gansu is a different matter and it will be dealt with as well. Imperium Guy 21:28, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

And why did you delete mine and LG's comments on the Indian coalition thing? Imperium Guy 21:29, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Oh sorry I didn't mean to delete those lines. My computer has too many key combinations that always end up pasting, deleting, or closing something :\ Arstar 21:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Arstar, you're very wrong about that one. Bare minimums of contact with the ANZC and SAC are in place in 1986/1987, something you'd know if you'd been around the last year. By 1989, they are going to be beginning to get small shipments, just as this thing says, as those nations export the tiny amount of surplus they possess.

And Imp is exactly correct about Gansu.

Lordganon 21:54, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, that's okay then, if you didn't deliberately delete it! :D Imperium Guy 22:02, February 16, 2012 (UTC)