Talk:1983: Doomsday

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=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
Archives: Page 1 Page 2

Is the ADC larger?
According to the Western Sahara (1983: Doomsday) article, the was part of an international force that kicked the Sicilians from Gibraltar in 2005. This makes me wonder whether Rif would actually be a part of the when it was formed in 2007. They would be enemies of Sicily as well and several current members of the ADC were part of that international force. I think it is likely that Rif was a founding member of the alliance. Mitro 17:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * All right then, I don't see why not. --DarthEinstein 17:25, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

And what about Bermuda and the East Carribean Federation? They seem to be prime candidates for an enlargement of the ADC, or perhaps observers.--Vladivostok 20:42, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bermuda was only discovered in 2009, so though they might be a potential member in the future, some time will need to pass to take care of the preliminary negotiations. As for the ECF, well the ADC was pretty much created to fight and contain expansionist Sicily. Canada is a member though despite not being anywhere near Sicily, but I think that is because they have a lot to lose if the route through the Mediterranean Sea is blocked. Would the ECF have the same interest? Mitro 15:48, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * The ECF might be more affiliated economically with the SAC because it is so close. Canada on the other hand was fairly isolated before the late 80s when they contacted the other future members of the ADC. So I think that Canada would have more trade going on with the other ADC members than the ECF would. Also, is it possible that a few of those French and Spanish successor states might be part of the ADC? Monaco and Andorra especially, since they are apparently the gateways in to former France and Spain. --DarthEinstein 16:18, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we can make an argument that anyone who was a target for Sicilian aggression was a founding member of the ADC, or at least joined later. Mitro 16:19, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Granted, the ECF would be economically closer to the SAC nations, but perhaps it would try to uphold stronger relations with with other nations in the Anglosphere. And one other thing I've been meaning to ask: How strong are the ADC and ANZC ties today? Would they support them in a cold war against SAC? Sort of like OTL Great Britain supporting the U.S.?--Vladivostok 08:39, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Only 2 nations in the ADC are technically a part of the Angloshere (Canada and the Celtic Alliance), but I could see them join a revitalized Commonwealth of Nations. As for the ANZC, the article does say that they are close with the ADC, but SAC nations have aided the member states of the ADC in conflicts against Sicily. Mitro 04:36, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Anglosphere" is i think an issue some people would love to discuss...
 * Given the old NATO structures and fellow associations (ANZUS, Commonwealth etc.) a close tie (as always stated) in between ADC and ANZC seems natural, at least militarical... this should stay and being kept. They are just natural allies in a world with few alternatives...right number 3 or for along with Siberia, right behind SAC and ANZC.--Xi&#39;Reney 23:35, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

the nations of the ECF currently place a role as the middle ground for several nations in OTL (in particular, Cuba and Venusalua on one side and the US on the other). It is possible they have a less neutral and relaxed mentality in TTL, but why not? I can't see them strong enough to pick a side without being thoroughly absorbed, so its quite possible they have good relations with most everyone, like in OTL. I could see them joining or staying out of the alliance, but I don't really seeing them to commiting to anything.128.187.80.2 17:16, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like the idea of the East Caribbean states as a middle ground, although there's really only one big dog in town now, and that's South America. So you could ask, the middle ground between who and whom? There are also signs that the ECF is acting as sort of a regional power in its own right, as the chief representative of Anglophonery in the Caribbean. It is mentioned, for example, as being very influential in Haiti and the Neth. Antilles. The ECF is still small and poor, no doubt, but they seem to have a certain prestige that lets them punch above their weight diplomatically - another great old English tradition! But I also don't see them joining the Atlantic Defense Community. The ADC powers actually see themselves as neutral players between South America and Australia-New Zealand, despite their natural friendliness with the latter. If the ADC expanded into the Caribbean, South America could well see them as a threat, and that would sour relations between the two blocs.
 * On the other hand, I proposed that Luxembourg was invited to join the ADC as an observer only - it's not strong enough to participate as a full member - and that it will probably get this status sometime this year. I saw this as a gesture toward a founding member of NATO that had made it through the cataclysm successfully. Are there any other potential observers that can be described as "friends of the ADC"? Benkarnell 23:02, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Would Woodbridge be a possible candidate for ADC observer status?? Verence71 12:21, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Germany
Prussia is going to start moving west and south, and I wanted some input on which areas might have survived Doomsday. I made up a rough map of possible political boundaries down the road. This would be after the area has stabilized into more or less solid political units (how stable they are is up for debate). Nations in the map are: That map wouldn't be accurate until probably 2020 at least, but thats the basic idea. Right now Prussia is beginning to expand into its claimed territory, and will likely encounter Weimar and Northeim as they are beginning to solidify their control on their areas. The protestent churches in Hesse are further integrating into a single United Hessian Church and are acting a unifying influence on the surviving populace. The Württembergs in Ravensburg had been gathering a private army with their money and influence in order to keep the area safe for themselves and have been pressured into using it to tame the surrounding lands. The Rheinland Confederation is in its infancy, and Bavaria is undergoing reconstruction with aid from the Alpine Confederation. North Germany I would think is beginning to take control of the lands between their controlled regions. Anyone else want to add to this, rip it apart, etc? --Oerwinde 08:13, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rheinland Confederation - An alliance of small municipalities and city states with a rotating capital.
 * Northeim - A city state based out of the city of Northeim
 * Weimar - A city state based out of the city of Weimar
 * Hessen - A protestent theocratic republic
 * Franken - Northern Bavaria decides against joining the Alpine Confederation and becomes an independent republic
 * Saar - Small feudal nation, ruled by the Sheriff, who was head of a military unit that survived DD and was able to establish order through brute force and oaths of loyalty. Not evil, just does what he thinks needs to be done.
 * Württemberg - Constitutional Monarchy based out of Ravensburg.
 * Alpine Confederation - Southern Bavaria joins the Alpine Confederation in 2015.
 * Württemberg - Constitutional Monarchy based out of Ravensburg.
 * Alpine Confederation - Southern Bavaria joins the Alpine Confederation in 2015.

i like the idea. but i hop no one develops it to the extent of the nations shown in the map. as of 2009, Germany is in a very rough way. HAD 00:15, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes its in a really bad way right now, but we have 3 major nations now that will be a major stabilizing influence, either gobbling up territory, or uniting others so to not be gobbled up. Radiation isn't even a factor anymore. The map was only a guideline anyway, theres obviously room for more city states and such, though I would have the Alpine Federation, Prussia, and North Germany being the dominant.


 * Maybe the North German Foreign Office has made maps like this showing their vision for the next decade in Germany. (Prussia's Foreign Office probably has maps that look very different indeed ;-)) Now do all of these states exist right now in some form? They would all need some sort of justification, of course, to make sure everyone agrees with their creation. I personally have no problem with them. Probably Germany's map looks a lot like France or Spain - tiny permanent settlements that claim larger regions of the country. Benkarnell 14:57, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well Württemberg right now is only a small region surrounding Ravensburg. As momentum builds smaller communities join willingly and warlords surrender in exchange for amnesty. I figured it would be something similar to Prussia only on a smaller scale. The old royal family plays a major part in the establishment of the nation and in thanks the monarchy is restored, although in a similar role to modern monarchs. They wouldn't be established as a nation until about 2014-2018. Saar is well on its way, and the Rheinland Confederation will have begun forming in the south of the area in response from Saar aggression. Hessen doesn't exist yet, but the protestent church there is starting to band communities together. I would say possibly the outline of a nation sometime by 2016. Weimar and Northeim would exist but to a much lesser degree, probably only controlling a third or less of the territory on the map. Franken would be established sometime after the Bavarian vote in 2015 with joint aid from Prussia and the Alpine Confederation. --Oerwinde 20:04, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

North Germany in my perspective is heading for a Socialist rule. It seems that a socialist party would be able to gain a foothold with mass unemployment. I also think that North Germany and the Kingdom of Prussia may have a war on their hands. I think North Germany and Prussia would dived the land between themselves and the Alpine Confederation. Cheifaugust 23:19, January 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Prussia and N.Germany will have high tensions in the next couple months but the Prussian Reichstag will force King Christian to abdicate, and his son will be much more diplomatic.Oerwinde 19:55, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

mass unemployment doesn't normally lead to socialism. the UK had mass unemployment in the thirties and the communists only got one MP.HAD 18:19, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * About North Germany - wouldn't Schleswig-Holstein petition for admission to the Scandinavian Countries? Up until WWII it was part of Denmark, wasn't it? Louisiannan 16:46, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Spiritualism and local cults
Moved to Talk:Religion (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 04:02, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Adopting Mexico
Per Mitro's suggestion elsewhere on the talk page, I've contacted Guinesscap on his talk page, requesting his permission to adopt Mexico. I want to retain the established history, while further developing the country page. I have ideas for Mexico's involvement in Texas, the southwest, and the south US, as well as for American refugee influence in its culture and politics, but would like his permission and blessing. BrianD 21:10, January 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I haven't heard back from Guinesscap, so I would like to go ahead and adopt the article, if that's okay with everyone. If this is approved, would I put a proposal tag back on the country page? BrianD 02:32, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want. When I semi-adopted Luxembourg I just put "This section is a proposal" next to the section that was mine (since the rest of it was canon).  Benkarnell 03:05, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

New World Map
Due to size, the discussion for the new world map has been moved here: File talk:World83DD v1.2.PNG. Mitro 17:57, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * We really need to get this finished. The old map is way to out of date. Mitro 03:03, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Riley.Konner 18:28, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * New version under construction: File:World map feb 10.png. Discussion can move to File talk:World map feb 10.png. Benkarnell 16:32, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like itOwen1983 16:43, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Good job on the map, Ben! BrianD 00:08, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Fabulatious! this is brilliant. well done ben!--HAD 11:04, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Great map and thanks for adding Woodbridge :) Has anyone thought about adding regional map ie for North American, Europe and Africa?? Verence71 13:34, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * North America.Oerwinde 08:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I love the new map, but I have a few issues with it.

1.The borders for Virginia and Lincoln are still too small.The Lincolnites control every part of Nebraska the NAU doesn't, and Virginia controls the portion of Kentucky on the Cumberland Plateau. Both nations should have their borders be up to the borders of their neighboring nation (NAU for Lincoln and Kentucky for Virginia)

2.The Assiniboians control not only a larger territory in Canada, but a chunk of North Dakota large enough to get the Lakotans riled up.

3.I am seeing nations that as far as i can tell do not have articles to back up their existence. For example, I couldn't find any refrence to Mali

Yankovic270 02:10, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mali is mentioned on the West African Union page as a potential member along with Burkina Faso. Oerwinde 08:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the WAU page is where the existence of Mali, Burkina Faso, and Benin is mentioned. It also says that Sierra Leone is in "political turmoil" which I took to mean it's disunited like South Africa and Angola and Liberia. I admit that I assumed the boundary for Mali, but it's the natural one (following the northern edge of the Niger valley) so I think it's OK. The only other border that I completely made up was my old nemesis, German Southwest Africa. I would have liked to mark it as one of the italic nations (we know it exists, but have no idea of its location or size), but I had to mark it purple to show its membership in the New Union.
 * As for the size of Lincoln and Virginia, I know we've talked about that a lot, but it's been a while, so a refresher can't hurt. Virginia's borders were made by Darth Einstein in his original (File:Doomsday 2009.png, and they seemed about right: basically West Virginia, plus a bit more in all directions. It's already the largest nation (by territory) west of the Mississippi. I thought consensus opinion was that this is the most likely and correct size for it, but then again, I don't remember if that's consensus or just my own opinion.
 * For Lincoln, I admit I did shrink Darth Einstein's borders for it. My thoughts: (1) the size I depicted is already quite huge for a city-state; (2) Lincoln would have little need to expand much beyond that (it's all pretty much nomad-inhabited prairie anyway), and indeed expanding needlessly would only create extra expense; and (3) even if it did expand, it's probably not going to pay much attention to the old Nebraska border, which is at this point a fairly meaningless straight line.
 * Anyway, that was what I was thinking. I honestly had thought the matter was settled but I see I was wrong. I'm more than open to correction if I was too hasty. 207.177.213.142 16:23, February 3, 2010 (UTC) (Benkarnell)

Virginia would still have a border with the neighboring Kentucky, due to its territory in the former US state of the same name. If you had read the article I created on Lincoln you would have known that it is not just a citystate. It is an independant republic governed by the remains of the Nebraska state government. As such most of its citizenry, while gaining an independant identity as Lincolnites, believe that Lincoln is the sucessor to the old US state they feel it is their duty to reclaim as much of the state's territory as possible. And since the Lakotan territory disputes with Assiniboia are now canon they need a cause. namely the Assiniboian territory in North Dakota. I keep bringing these issues up because I want my ideas to be properly illustrated. The borders i decscribed are what I consider my nations to look like.

Yankovic270 17:27, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

well, how the borders would be drawn depend on who is drawing the map. In modern times, we would probably do this fancy dotted line thing and then color the area the color of the audience's choice--- or whoever administers the area. I also think that part of this is the inner struggle for greatness, where a writer proposes an idea, an the rest of us say "that's too big, too fast, and too advanced". then we kind of scuffle over it until map's come out. Quite personally, I do not see how a state where people worship Abraham Lincoln is going to thrive. Exist-- possible. grow to the size of the state of nebraska? Highly unlikely. Religions historically don't "pop" into existance, particuarly dramatically new ones.Desert viking 20:38, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * This map is supposed to be totally unbiased in that it shows effective control, not claims. No doubt Lincoln's home-made maps show it encompassing all of Nebraska.  And DV, I think that "Lincolnism" is a religious movement within the republic that is still in minority. I'm sure it gets lots of attention and is something of an embarassment for mainstream Lincolnians: I can imagine that many people in North America believe Lincoln to be full of people worshipping Abe. But it's not the official state religion or anything... at least, that was my understanding when I read it (and yes Yank, I've read it, many times).  @Yank - being an "independent republic" does not preclude being a city-state: Rome and Athens managed just fine as both for quite a long time, as has Singapore more recently.  I had honestly thought that in the discussions of it everyone agreed that it couldn't take up all of Nebraska.  As for Virginia/Kentucky - are they supposed to be touching?  I admit I haven't read Kentucky's page; I think most of it was written while I was not active.  Benkarnell 22:40, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Victoria Flag
The Citizen's Congress currently going on now will eventually propose that the government of Victoria adopt a federal system in order to provide regional autonomy. As this is a huge change it will basically require a huge ammendment to the Victorian constitution. With the addition of US territory and a new direction for the country, the government will take proposals for a new national flag and hold a referrendum on which flag to adopt. I have a few choices I've come up with and would love some other contributions. The only thing I wasn't able to do with the new flag choices that I wanted to do was incorporate some british elements. The color is all I was able to keep for that. I've got the red, white, and blue representing both british and american origins, the maple leaf denoting the canadian origins, and the 7 stars which will represent the 7 provinces. If you want to contribute it doesn't have to look anything like the ones I've made or incorporate any of the elements, as long as it looks good and is representative of the country.--Oerwinde 11:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I most like the current flag, but I guess that's just the Anglophile in me. If you really want to change it, I'd say go with number 3. --DarthEinstein 21:19, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well its a referrendum so if the concensus is to keep the current flag, thats what it will be.--Oerwinde 21:42, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I also really like the current flag but it should have an element of the American in it. Maybe a burger.... Bob 12:18, January 9, 2010 (UTC) I have made a flag myself Bob 13:10, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I like the fifth option the best. Is it ok if I add one of those slick polls to the discussion page? --Yankovic270 15:31, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Which flag should Oerwinde use for Victoria? Current Flag Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4 Option 5 Option 6 Added another one inspired by Mumby's--Oerwinde 10:40, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

I like flag 3 for simplicity. it could be easily recognized when folded up in the breeze, and won't get confused with anything else. (and I like the look)

option 3 is flag 3, right? --HAD 11:00, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

can we please get this finished? HAD 11:23, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well, it looks like option 3 is the winner. The general election is the 2nd wednesday of February, so it will likely be changed after that.Oerwinde 12:09, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

sweet. i assume the victorian army has by now dealt with its lack of equipment and purchased some new stuff from the CANZ, perhaps even the USSR? HAD 13:02, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would think so. Mostly light attack craft rather than large tanks, but yeah. CANZ is probably the major supplier of ground vehicles and helicopters, where Viking Air is the supplier of fixed wing, and Esquimalt has its own shipyards.Oerwinde 05:28, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

thats cool, then. HAD 13:17, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Creating A Flag
Now that Bentwaters/Woodbridge is canon it seems that it should have a flag however I'm no good at the graphics jiggery-pokery. If I gave the idea of what I would want it to look like could someone make it for me?? Verence71 16:13, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I went and made one before fully reading this line. So yeah, let me know what you want it to look like I'll see what I can do. In the meantime this is what I came up with.

Strangely enought that's more or less what I had in mind with one minor alteration. Instead of having Bentwaters-Woodbridge in the scroll I was thinking of having the nation's motto ie Strength Through Adversity which translates into Latin as Vires Per Adversum. It also occurs to me that the shield and scroll could also act as the nation's Coat of Arms. If you're able to sort that out could you be so kind as put the flag and CoA into the nation infobox??

Verence71 19:26, January 23, 2010 (UTC)



Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Article of the Month: South America
Trying something new here, if it works we might stick with it. Anyway this month's article of the month is. While no one is required to work on this article, we do ask that you please take some time to add to this article and hopefully through a group effort we can turn this stub into a good article. Mitro 13:30, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2

Fairmont Whiskey Company
I have three questions to ask:

1. Is anyone from West Virginia and presumably able to survive Doomsday?

2. Would you like to be the millionaire CEO of a sucessful Post-DD whiskey company?

3. If so, then what is your actual birth name (not username) or a variation of it?

--Yankovic270 23:03, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're better off making up someone. BrianD 00:26, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Travels in the Southwest
I've written a blurb on a travel narrative that surfaced in Hawaii in the late 80s from an unknown North American source. My goal is to offer a glimpse into minor, unofficial contacts between the regions that passed under the radar of officialdom, and look at how people got their information in that period. Please read and critique. Benkarnell 06:04, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Good stuff. Is this legit, though, and where exactly did the author go?BrianD 04:10, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's as legit as anything in that genre can be: fact and fiction are probably quite liberally interspersed, but there's useful stuff in there for people experienced in extracting it. Assuming there is a single author, he could be anywhere - languishing in a Bay Area prison - living out a quiet retirement - reigning over a Sierra Nevada clan as its king - dead. He seems like the kind of person who could end up in unexpected places ;). Benkarnell 23:21, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

I wonder though where he went in the book: what else is there, other than the Navajo Nation?BrianD 23:24, January 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Small places: villages, farmsteads, and of course large regions with no permanent residents, just nomads. Most of them gone by now, although not all of them. I don't think that the Navajo Nation is in the book. In its modern form, it was reconstituted in 1989; the book was (probably) written in 1988. And if "Davis" had written about a thriving republic in Navajo country, Ozzie-Kiwi explorers would probably have looked for it. Davis' book is a fairly typical example of travel narratives of the time: exciting and based in some truth, but not very helpful as a guidebook for future travelers. Benkarnell 14:44, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Did "Davis" then travel Arizona and New Mexico? And, when you read this what would you find that had a base in actual fact? BrianD 00:29, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Utah and Oil
Utah may actually enter the Doomsday world with working oil industry. Its not there now, but in 1983 there was an oil refinery in roosevelt, 150+ miles east and two major mountain ranges away (one running north-south, the other East west) from the nearest nuke. in OTL the refinery went bankrupt because of the low quality of the oil. in this TTL, I could see it becoming a major industry, and perhaps with people going to the effort to conquer the oil shale--- which was possible in 1983, but not economically feasible. with a low source of oil and a large amount of machinary that would become availible with more fuel, the post DD-Industry might be started, though it appears that all of Utah's neighbor's except Dinetah already have oil (west texas, NAU). Desert viking (this was just recently added to the archives by DV, moved here by me to create discussion, Mitro 05:17, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is oil capacity out toward vernal, and I would presume that whatever could be salvaged of the refineries due north of the SLC Int'l airport were salvaged and moved south toward the new capital and population centers. I don't know how much the oil-shale and oil-sands will have been tapped just yet, but I would imagine that if they haven't been working on it since the turn of the millenium, they're just about there at this point.  I don't know that the oil will be going outside of Utah and Dinetah, especially not to the NAU with the ongoing Idaho/Wyoming border dispute, but I could see it starting to trickle over to West Texas with the new trade agreements.  I also don't see Utah importing oil - with the collectivization that took place following DD, it's most likely going to be government run cars that have oil, and coal-powered trains are likely the norm, since there are huge coal deposits in Carbon County (where it gets the name). Louisiannan 19:26, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Empire of Greater Germania
Daeth to bigs brothers, GemrMania uber alles yalls, ANarhcy, Anaekcy, Oceansia sucks!

Haha, sorry but couldn't help myself. Anyway, do you remember this troll we had a few months back? I was wondering what you guys would think if I took his "proposal" and turned it into a science fiction book/series published in the Doomsday universe? Mitro 20:48, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

possibly the best idea involving the worst idea ever to come out of this. how about having a WW4 involving the USSR, the Empire, The CANZ and the SAC, with The ADC as well. and the NAU Could fight the "war of american unification", like OTL Prussia did. HAD 20:59, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Germany has to rule all of Europe, with pomp and circumstance and an iron fist. There also have to be secret military bases hidden under rubble or in out of the way places (like Siberia or Yellowstone National Park) with super-advanced technology, and cloning, so the Germans can repopulate the world quickly.BrianD 21:36, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yikes, I forgot about that conversation. A lot of you need lessons on how to Not Feed the Trolls.  This guy was taking everyone for a ride, I think.  Benkarnell 21:39, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

The first I thought was "Oh this guy's back, I never got to have my fun with him...". But as long as we're getting propaganda novels, I'd like to include a "Despotate of Byzantium" that pushed the Turks out of Anatolia, and into someplace bad... like Persia, and now rules an empire from Morocco to Iraq, Somalia to Bosnia to be included :D
 * I'm only half-joking too...

Mr.Xeight 00:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

as long as the french get bombed, i'll be happy! :)LOL!?!--HAD 16:02, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations. Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines. nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean. Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s. Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * what happened to the satalites already orbiting? most of the communications on the ground would be gone, but would it be possible to rework the systems?Desert viking 18:16, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation. Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, this is an old proposal but it's good that it waited so long. The Alaska paragraph can now be brought into line with what we now know about that conflict.... whatever that is. Benkarnell 19:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

New British elections
British elections coming up! Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * See 2009 Realm of New Britain General Election (1983: Doomsday) for the article in question. Mitro 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the Anglo-Africans just continue parties popular among them, such as the Progressive Federal Party, instead of copying British parties for no apparent reason? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * We've already noted that British people from the UK came to New Britain. Many of these people would have been politicians, with a collapsing government and civil disorder, when an existing stable party community arrives, it only makes sense that they would take root and stabilise political aggravations. Bob 13:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh sure, that make sense. It's the Anglo-Africans I'm talking about however. Why would they conform to a model identical to the one previously used in Britain and forget everything about their own political history? Especially given the fact that they form the majority of the population, that just doesn't make sense to me. Also, given the fact that South Africa used a system of proportional representation and I've never heard of any country that moved from a proportional system to a district system as rigid as the British one (correct me if I'm wrong on this though), my estimate is New Britain would definitely have more than just two to three political parties. You may even want to spice things up by adding an ethnic Xhosan party, openly supportive of KwaXhosa. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:38, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is I've put in alot of information into the table but it doesn't come up. Can anyone help? Bob 11:34, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

There would be a large Xhosa population, given NB's location. But Karsten, a couple things: South Africa's state collapsed and there was a lot of population displacement, so it's plausible that NB wouldn't resemble South Africa too closely. Though since most people would be used to a PR government, I would expect them to keep that. Benkarnell 18:23, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I think kertens got a good point a political parties should reflect the ethnic diversity in NB --Owen1983 18:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Bob 16:38, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there would be an "Afrikaans National Party" in New Britain. The history suggests that most Afrikaaners were replaced by Anglo-Africans.  Mitro 02:59, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

This is another very, very old proposal. Bob, have you thought about Karsten's point about a PR system? Benkarnell 19:08, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

A PR system allows more parties more seats. This leads to weaker governments and less control. The government will spend more more time bickering than getting things done. This is precisely what New Britain doesn't need. Bob 17:54, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that your own personal politics or what the people of NB decided? The British refugees come from a country with a long history of being under a PR system.  South Africa where NB is located, has one as well.  It seems implausible that these people would forget centuries of political history and try a whole new system.  Mitro 19:11, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually British elections have always been run on a first past the post system. Elections for the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly are run using a mix of first past the post and proportional representation. The Northern Ireland Assembly is elected using Single Transferable Vote. However none of those devolved assemblies existed in 1983 Verence71 12:54, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Question: would the UK manage to evacuate 900k to southern Africa? Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

answer: they couldnt becuse it would be impossible a more realistic figure would be 200 max becuse with fual souces gone and there would nned space for machinary and crops--Owen1983 17:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I just started with 900k to provoke debate. I agree that it should be smaller, but 200 is a gross underestimation. Your average British ship houses and provides for men in excess of 300. I think the bar should be set about 300k and we can discuss from there. Bob 16:36, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

200 would be about right due to food been rationed and coal or diesel needed to make the journey--Owen1983 13:11, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Even if you can organise an exodus of about 200k brits to southern Africa (use cruiseliners etc. and it goes okey..) what would you do with the problems in te host nation?? food, shelter, public opinion, neigbour states reaction?? As far as imagine 200.000 of mainly white people of the "Empire" -though long gone- nearing the shore of southerm africa...a HUGE conflict potential IMO.--Xi&#39;Reney 00:32, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought we had nixed the whole idea of a coordinated mass evacuation of Britain - a LONG time ago. My main problem: why, why, why, why would they just up and decide to go to South Africa? They had no idea that a pro-British state was taking shape down there! South Africa may have drawn some British refugees, but I personally have huge problems with the idea of a single Moses-style exodus to New Britain. Small numbers of refugees from Britain to SA would probably have landed first at the cape, but would have found their way to New Britain eventually given the anti-White climate in Cape Town. Bob, we have been over this endlessly, month after month after month. Please stop pushing for it. Benkarnell 19:26, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have altered it so its a few thousand. The government and supporting troop as well as bureaucrats and the like. The population of New Britain has increased as Brits from ANZC Celtic Alliance and other places flood into New Britain.
 * The numbers from other parts of the world would be small though. The CA and ANZC are major world powers with a large economies. Would that many people really prefer a small refugee state in chaotic Africa where most of the population is Xhosa or Anglo-African? Mitro 19:13, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe New Britain sets up a major operation to begin moving more people from mainland Britain who don't want to be a part of the Celtic Alliance, Clevelande/Northumberland/Albion, or Bentwater/Woodbridge. With a major waystation in Avalon, Guinea-Bisseau.Oerwinde 20:16, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it would depend whether they thought Bentwaters/Woodbridge would be big enough to worry about Verence71 16:20, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I question the whole operation, I mean, who would want to leave their home they've always known for some seemingly backwards African country that's got an identity crisis when they could have a more stable life where they've always lived. That's my thought. I wouldn't leave my home and move to the opposite ends of the Earth just because they promised to be the "same-old Britain".Louisiannan 22:45, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because your home is now an even more backward and unhealthy place which offers you much less opportunities. New Britain is located in former South Africa, probably the most developed country in pre-DD Sub-Saharian Africa, barely a backward country. Even the Britons would know this fact. Grand Prince Paul II. 22:57, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Here's a new proposal I cooked up. Are there any problems with this?

--Jnjaycpa 05:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

If you're looking for a handy Romanov this guy was a pretender/claimant to the Russian throne in 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Vladimir_Kirillovich_of_Russia

Verence71 11:31, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

this artle would clash with the Socialist Siberia (1983: Doomsday) articl but there might be room for it in SW Russia --Owen1983 14:35, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

As long as it stays in southwest Russia only and isn't too big (since this region was nuked fairly badly), I think that this would be fine. I look forward to its continuation. --DarthEinstein 15:21, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Not sure that Armenia and Azerbaijan would be so chummy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian-Azerbaijani_war_(1918%E2%80%931920)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_War

Verence71 19:41, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

No one in the Caucuses is exactly chummy with each other. In fact the region is a tinderbox of ethnic-hatred and violence. Not trying to make the region look bad or anything (I hear the people are friendly and the scenery is breathtaking) but look what happened our timeline. As soon as the Soviet Union collapsed (and in some cases even before) the region immediately descended into war. Literally everyone was fighting with another ethnic group at some point or another. Given this I have to wonder how stable a region like this would be.

Now there are a few people who I could see joining (or at least tolerate) a Russian based state if things got really bad (mainly Abkhazians, Ossetians, and perhaps Armenians). Others would violently oppose such a country (Georgians, Azerbaijanis, and Chechens). Given this I think sutch a state could work out, but it would need to be revised. Also I need to see if there are any major targets in the regon outside the major cities that would get blown up.--ShutUpNavi 02:24, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

It depends how the various elements of the Federation joined. As Shutup said some parts could join of their own free will whereas others, such as Georgia could be forced to join at gunpoint

Verence71 12:48, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this page needs a little more before it can graduate. There are lots of questions here, including what nations it is in contact with.  Although I suppose we could graduate the article and simply recognize that there is some kind of federation there, leaving the details for later.  Benkarnell 22:15, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

What's the final verdict here? Is it too ASB for the Caucasus to cooperate like this? One solution could be to make it a small federation with a misleading name, like the New Union of South Africa. (Which should probably be called "Union of Four White and Coloured Microstates in and Around the Cape Area"). So the Caucasus Federation could only contain some smallish communities but claim the entire region. Benkarnell 04:50, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * So we've got to do something with this. As it is, anyone could adopt this idea and do whatever they want with it.  By the same token, we could reject it and leave the Caucasus wide open.  My vote is leave as this stub page. Benkarnell 00:30, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * IMHO, I don't think such a state is realistic. The ethnic tensions I think would be enough to prevent any type of union.  Mitro 00:47, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

this is the basic idea for a survior society in china-- very open to suggesting at this point.
 * It's wickedly dystopian, along the lines of Thunder Bay and aspects of Superior's history - I like it. I don't know enough about Chinese history or culture to say whether it's a realistic Chinese dystopia, though. It also seems quite large - I'm wary of creating large survivor states in China before we nail down more of its history. Benkarnell 22:11, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

yea, the size kind of bothers me, though its sparcely populated--I think. I'm kind of hoping that this will start chineese history for this TL-- when I went through this site for the first time, the abscence of any information on China after DoomsDay stuck out like a sore thumb. As far as I can tell, China was suprise attacked by the USSR, which caused a total government breakdown. A coastal few towns seem to have survived, as they are mentioned in tiawan's article, but under the impression there is no larger (or at least better) civilization in the interior. Some stuff on the edges has been claimed by the USSR, but they have simply stayed away from going farther south into manchuia--implying it not worth it due to the state of things. China has a history of major Civil wars (all of the most deadly conflicts of the last two hundred years are european conflicts or chinese civil wars), and they have a history of war lords. As for Chinese culture, my idea is that the culture was in flux at that point, and Hong Long (the emperor) got rid of those who opposed it. but I do think it could be smaller are you thinking population (its at about a twentieth or less of what the area would be now) or land holdings?Desert viking 05:33, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess the area: it seems like a really big chunk of China, especially for a monarchist revival like this. Given China's decades without a monarch, and the long ideological purge wrought by the Cultural Revolution, it seems like a would-be monarch would only be able to maintain control of a smaller group). But I'm not dead set against it, and it could work given enough justification. It's a revival of the warlordism of the 1930s, in a way. Did any of those warlords pretend to be "emperors"? What would they be most likely to call themselves in a post-Communist China ruin? Benkarnell 03:37, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The warlord era, at least in the north was fought over who controlled the Beiyang Government. None of the warlords claimed to be Emperor but a lot of them called themselves or were called Marshal something. I would imagine that in a post-Doomsday China the warlords would call themselves Marshals and would all claim to be the legitimate government of the People's Republic Verence71 18:57, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's mostly what I was thinking. We've played with reviving monarchies in various places (Prussia, Luxembourg, New Britain, Orleans), and I've been guilty of it myself (Hawaii, Cocos Islands).  But China seems an unlikely place for it to happen, what with the legacy of communism and its impact on the public consciousness.  It's for the same reason that we haven't had any monarchies arise in the former USA (except Hawaii, where I honesly believe the restoration was justified, even likely).  I like the idea of a Marshall running things in this region.  And then I'd be more OK with a largish survivor state in Anhui.  Benkarnell 03:15, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created. --Fero 18:26, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Federation of Greece
Awhile back I decided to have the CoG host a referendum on whether to tighten the power of the "central" government and make the nations come together into a Federation. Well, it was supposed to be New Year's Eve, 2009, and I suppose the time's come to write an article on the Confederation of Greece becoming the Federation of Greece. Now the CoG's page will become obsolete and I'll create a new article. Though one problem is; will I have to go back and now change every mention of the "Confederation" to "Federation", or only from henceforth when Greece is being mentioned say "Federation"? Mr.Xeight 01:01, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think that you would only need to change things that refer to them in the present. Anything that happened in the past would continue to reference the Confederation, as thats what it was then, mentions in foreign relations and such would need to be changed.--Oerwinde 08:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Oer. Mr.Xeight 16:25, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, if the referendum was just a couple weeks ago, the new government won't poof! into existence right away. There will have to be new elections, and all that.  Check out the transition process from US history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_the_Confederation.  It took a couple of months. Benkarnell 19:41, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

East Tennessee
Article I created for the provisional nation of east Tennessee. --BrianD 15:53, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the way they informally drifted toward nationhood: no grand nation-building or even an official naming, just a "hard decision". That's how a lot of the survivor communities probably evolved. I admire your persistence! You started with a broad sketch of the entire region and haven't once stopped filling in the details. I have trouble doing that (that's why I've stuck to tiny islands and isthmuses). Benkarnell 00:05, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ben, thanks! That seems to be the best way for me to deal with all the articles; I come up with ideas from time to time, and this method helps me to be faithful to updating them. BrianD 00:18, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

May I ask editors to review the East Tennessee article, as well as New Montgomery, Selma, Louisiana, Lake Arthur and American Comics and tell me on their respective talk pages, what they believe needs to be worked on/completed for the pages to be considered complete and ready for approval? (I'm listing them all here, in lieu of sending six different messages for each one). I would greatly appreciate your input. BrianD 02:35, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems odd that Knoxville and Oak Ridge would not be targets. Why do you think they would be missed? Mitro 02:55, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

New Montgomery
Article I created for New Montgomery, in southwest Alabama.--BrianD 05:08, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * This basically works, and the internal history of Alabama is probably typical for many US states that attempted to hold things together. The one objection I have is to New Montgomery as a "tent city". Just because they're violent and racist doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to build houses, especially given 20 years of existence. We should avoid stereotyping the stereotypers, if you follow me. Benkarnell 03:33, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ben. No intentions to stereotype; I thought because of the location it started out as a tent city, and also these was kind of like the rag-tag fleet in Battlestar Galactica: everyone fled with what they could carry on their backs, looking for safe haven. I'll revise, to eliminate the stereotypes and build in buildings for homes, businesses, churches, schools, etc.BrianD 05:37, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

A Proposed Add on -- a bio of a rogue leader
It took be a while to figure some of the formatting out, but here is my next page. I will put a link to it from the main page when it is approved.

The picture I used is an alteration of a shot of a guy named Kai Dupe, a picture that came up when I searched photos for a "black male." I altered the picture so that the result looks like a thinner relative of his with a slightly wider nose. However, I did not seek permission (the caption said it "may" be protected), so what I need is a stock photo that is public domain. This handsome man with a graying beard captures the charisma that I see needed in this man.

I hope the bio is satisfactory. I tried to make it from a fully neutral point of view, not even mentioning the carnage and slavery that his reported to have happened under his reign! --SouthWriter 03:44, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to add the link: Find Jibril Zahur here. SouthWriter 18:12, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've decided to change the character to a real character with real possibilities to have been in the right place to fulfill the role of my fictional one. The rogue leader is Royall Jenkins, leader of the United Nation of Islam. I set up a page for him. I hope you like it. I rewrote the takeover of Anderson to be less bloody because in OTL Jenkins is a respectable religious leader (for the most part).SouthWriter 20:33, January 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * So if you are using a real person this time, does that mean you have no more use for the Jibril Zahur article? Mitro 20:49, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose he can be put in "limbo" just in case we get some flack from the Royall Jenkins and the United Nation of Islam. I've changed the article to take out most of the bloodshed (the deaths occurring as white citizens fought in defense of their property) due to the generally peaceful nature of the real UNOI.  Besides, if they are so violent, they would not have lasted until the present.  I'll take the category tags off of the Jibril Zahur article to keep it from coming up in search engines.98.84.38.13 02:45, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Selma
My proposal on a survivor community in Selma, Alabama.BrianD 04:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Slavery was abolished in 1993... does that mean that Selmans(?) enslaved whites before that? Benkarnell 03:40, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, because the "CSA" was doing it to African-Americans. I'm still working on this idea, so while the idea of a black community (Selma) and white, racist Confederate community will stick, the details will change. There's a lot of anger there over things that happened in the first decade after Doomsday, but potential for Selma to eventually join the "greater community of nations" in the South. Not so much for New Montgomery, whose leaders are bound and determined to resurrect the Confederacy. BrianD 05:41, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Lake Arthur
My proposal for the survivor community of Lake Arthur, Louisiana.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Louisiana
My proposal for the known-only-until-now-to-locals state(s) of Louisiana.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Natchez
My proposal for the survivor community of Natchez, Mississippi. Bonus points for the first editor to identify the real-life counterpart to Natchez's mayor.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Nanchung
a resilient group of chinese who have built a nation around a leader in resonse to threats from the Dragon Kingdom.Desert viking 00:57, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Parthenopean Republic
So,i've done a new article.For now it's only an idea.If the Second Sicily war gets approved,i think it's pretty much likely to exist.

My article about a small town in Illinois that survived Doomsday. Mitro 00:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Korea
Moved Discussion to: Talk:Korea (1983: Doomsday)

This is one of those general articles. Thoughts and comments welcomed. Mitro 02:56, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

American Comics
What happened to the DC and Marvel comic book characters in the 1983:DD world? BrianD 07:40, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Added a base Comic Books article, as well as an article for my own company. Comic Books (1983: Doomsday), Omega Level Comics (1983: Doomsday)Oerwinde 06:44, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created Riley.Konner 08:57, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, Riley. Though it is a quaint little "town" with its own post office, it is hardly likely that less than two dozen people would dare buck the system at the risk of annihilation. A bunch of "hippies" in the mid-eighties, the townspeople mostly ran restaurants and craft shops. The dairy farms had been converted to other uses long before 1983. If the town limits extended to the coast (it is not clear from the maps I've seen) then they may have had a chance to be self sustaining. The farms began producing grapes and wine in the late 1980's though, and would indeed have been valuable to the Chumash Republic. I don't think the "townspeople" would risk their very existence as a peaceful village just because the "state" wanted to use that land.SouthWriter 18:00, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thee have been many instances in OTL where small towns didn't like there government, despite there similar size and population they still tried to fight thre superior government. Riley.Konner
 * Any more objections? Riley.Konner 21:37, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well did SouthWriter accept your explanation? Mitro 16:19, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haven't heard from him since... Riley.Konner 16:36, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It still strikes me as a bit far-fetched, really, and in the face of the (frankly, unbelievably) large military response from Chumash, I'm left wondering if this article should hold. Louisiannan 17:39, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

this is a really silly idea. tiny town V nation-state? how is this in any way plausible? a platoon of armoured cars could take out harmony, let alone the entire chumash army, which, by the way, could not be composed entirely of Spec Op like troops. HAD 20:14, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Article I made. Riley.Konner 23:27, January 28, (UTC)
 * Any more objections? Riley.Konner 21:37, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

this article deserves a chance Owen1983 16:52, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Iceland
When the Doomsday crossfire began Iceland was not targeted for it was of no importance, but Neskaupstour was hit by an Unfuctenal IBCM that was headed for Quebec, but fourtanetly it was a small IBCM (meaning it only was powerful enough to destroy a city). Mass panick still developed and many of the people believed that more where headed there way, but a man named Joseph Kennly(an American traveler) told the people that "to other nations, we are not of importance which is what saved all of us except for the people of Neskaupstour, who we will mourn for". Kennly was voted and made president of the republic two days later and the nation started its transmissons throught the world, even if they had few transmissoners they would and will find survivers.


 * Fascist, please put proposals under the proper heading, and please use the signature w/timestamp button to "sign" your posts at the end, so we know whom we're talking to. Thanks! --BrianD 01:12, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

We agreed that in order not to create a monster made up of "me, too!"s that there were to be no missiles that missed their target. Neskaupstour would be saved.
 * This is a question I've always wondered and am too lazy to create a section for; how many missiles did both sides have? The nuclear missile map makes America look like it's dying of chicken pox, Europe has on average two bombings per country, China is pretty bad, and even far off Australia was (if memory serves right) four or five bombs. When exactly are both sides going to run out bombs and how exactly were sad bombs deployed if major cities were the first targets?

Mr.Xeight 01:38, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * funny answer-- there were more nuclear bombs in the world that efficient means to disperce them--there are more bombs that missles. so many, in fact, that when the SALT talks were initiated, it was missles that were limited, not bombs. the limits were placed in respect to existing missles, which were a little over 1,500 each (if I remember right). now, each missle has from five to thirty war heads, which gives us around...30,000 nuclear bombs (did I do the math right there? so lets assume 5 heads per bomb and 1,500 total missles. that gives us...7,500? I must have made a mistake, that's a lot! some one google it Desert viking 02:19, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

(Back on topic) Regarding what MrXeight said, yes, we did enact a general "don't use malfunctioning missiles as a plot device" rule, mostly to prevent a situation where everyone's hometown was miraculously saved and the capital of a thriving republic. And only one other person has tried to do the opposite situation, a malfunctioning missile that hits the wrong place, and that's Ubiratamuniz in the. We rejected that, unfortunately, after Ubirata had gone silent and was no longer participating, but we did it mostly because it seemed unlikely for missiles aimed at the US to land in Brazil of all places. However, missiles would have been flying thick over Iceland on that day, and it seems very plausible for one to land there by accident. My vote is to allow it.

Now, Iceland's history is already partially written, by Realismadder, as part of his creation of the. So he does have to give the OK for somebody else to work in his area. And whatever you decide to do with Iceland, it has to stay within existing canon; so Iceland has to co-found the NU in 1990, and its current president has to be Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson. Benkarnell 04:20, January 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * So what's the story on this one? Does the original poster (FascistBritain, wasn't it?) want to create a page and explore this scenario, or has the idea been dropped? Benkarnell 00:33, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hurricanes
This is assuming that the hurricanes would have happened in TTL as they did in OTL. BrianD 06:27, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_hurricanes
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Texas_hurricanes_%281980-present%29
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Florida_hurricanes_%281975-1999%29
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Carolina_hurricanes_%281980%E2%80%93present%29
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Maryland_and_Washington,_D.C._hurricanes_%281980%E2%80%93present%29
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Delaware_hurricanes
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_England_hurricanes
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canada_hurricanes
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_America_tropical_cyclones


 * Thank you Brian. I spent all day building a raw data base -- cut and paste -- of articles and paragraphs of all the storms (except the South American ones) that you listed.  I am going to paste the raw data as a "proposal" for the time being.  Here's the link: http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Hurricanes_%281983:_Doomsday%29


 * Weather patterns were definitely affected by the war, which is why we've already got the page.  I'm not sure whether that would make hurricanes more or less frequent, or more or less severe.  But they definitely should not happen in the time, place, and manner as in OTL - the blasts and their aftermath had too great an effect on temperatures, etc. Benkarnell 15:09, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Olmsted
My proposal for a theocratic dictatorship in former Minnesota. --Jnjaycpa 21:02, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

From the short stub, I have doubts that this would happen. However, this free ebook may give you a little insight into the megachurch that has developed out of the former "First Baptist Church there in Rochester, MN. A short history is found at the church's website with a link to a downloadable book.

I picked this church from the ten that google earth brought up because it had no denomination attached to it. It changed its name to Autumn Ridge Church. In order to have a viable "theocratic republic" you have to have a megachurch already established with a near fanatical following. We are trying to deal with the believable rather than the fanciful here. I doubt if a megachurch (especially Baptist) would become an "Old Testament" Church in the way your envision. You might get a "Reformed" Church (that believes in what we call Christian Reconstructionism ) that would set up such a republic, but such churches tend to be small.SouthWriter 00:31, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, stranger things have happened. But it's true that most USAmericans would hold on to at least some of the political ideals they were raised on, freedom of religion first among them. OTOH, a self-governing, autocratic religious community is not at all hard to imagine, especially in a post-apocalyptic world. People gather around a charismatic leader or organization, which slowly increases his/her/its degree of control. There doesn't even need to be an established church before 1983. However, a community of 25,000 seems a tad high for such a community... in a wide-open world like this, it would be fairly easy for the disaffected (i.e. anyone who did not buy into the regime's spiritual claims) to leave for another town. And it seems hard to believe this many people sticking around in a place like this. Then agiain, it is a very different world. I'm on the fence. Benkarnell 00:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Point noted. I'll probably cut it down to about 10K. In my storyline, the Rochester government falls apart and a charismatic preacher joins with a National Guard unit takes over. The city was largly abandond and the people left and the survivors went to the countryside.--Jnjaycpa 01:24, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. And I was thinking: if the settlement is prosperous and successful, or at least more so than its neighbors, it may well be fairly big. Some people may well put up with living there if it beats leaving. I was also thinking: I'm surprised we haven't seen more communities like this. Imagine after the collapse of civilization. People would come together to live with others who shared their religious views. Naturally they would govern themselves in a way that we might call a "theocracy". There wouldn't have to be antything insidious or sinister about it - it would just be people regulating their own religious community. The American frontier was filled with settlements like that. If it's a small community where everyone basically holds the same beliefs, it doesn't have to degenerate into an oppressive dicatorship. Problems will only start to arise when the younger generation grows up, and they question the norms and beliefs of the foundrs. Benkarnell 23:22, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I decided to change the name to Christian Republic of Olmsted. --Jnjaycpa 05:50, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

International Falls
My proposal for a survivor community along the U.S.-Canada border in former Minnesota (I had hinted at it in a couple of other places on the Wiki). BrianD 22:09, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

An article based upon the survivor community mentioned in the 2009 WCRB report on the southern United States. --GOPZACK 22:14, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Texas
A Small nation (Capital is Corpus Christi) that survived the doomsday crossfire (dont worry no malfuctionnal IBCMS) (idea from FascistBritan) oh and p.s. if you want to see all the land it has left then go to new pics because for some reason the flag wont appear on this suggestion page(pic name is RepublicofTexas.png)
 * The Naval Air Station Corpus Christi is located just a few miles from the city. I have feeling that would make it a target. If you are interested in working on Texas, talk to BrianD, he had been the caretaker of the area. Mitro 23:42, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still am. Corpus Christi would undoubtedly have been a target. And whomever you are, please sign your posts so we know whom we're speaking with. BrianD 23:51, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

An article on space exploration in the post-Doomsday world. Mitro 03:01, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * A good exercise would be locating the astronauts of the US space program - especially those that died in OTL in the space shuttle disasters. If state captitals were all targeted, the even Christa McAuliffe perished, for she was teaching in Concord, New Hampshire.  I think the rest of the Challenger crew were either at a space center or in a large city that was targeted.  But what of others since then? Just wonderingSouthWriter 03:27, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the Vermont article, I have Concord as having NOT been hit, albeit fallen apart in the ubiquitious chaos that plagued much of America. McAuliffe may have survived. --BrianD 03:30, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Stadiums
Here's a place to list all the stadiums and other sports facilities in the Post-DD world. --Jnjaycpa 01:17, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Would that include teams as well?? Verence71 21:40, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Teams generally are covered in the sports by country article. This looks like an article for stadiums, arenas, etc. the teams play in. BrianD 21:53, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Karelia
A proposal for a survivor nation in the former USSR. --Jnjaycpa 05:11, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Territorially speaking is it based around this part of Russia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia?? Verence71 20:23, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I assume that in a large region between the killzones of Leningrad and Murmansk there would be some survivors. The only question I have is if there are any potential targets in that region.Jnjaycpa 20:48, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

This link might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Military_District Verence71 21:00, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. After a little research I found that there was a minor military airbase in Petrozavodsk, which means it was nuked. For the moment, I'll assume no other nukes fell in that region.Jnjaycpa 01:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

70% or so of the population of Karelia is ethnic Russian so surely Russian would be the main language??

Ethnic Karelians themselves are about 10% of the population so maybe at some point post-Doomsday there could be an armed uprising among them Verence71 16:02, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

The Panama Canal again
I've gone ahead and written up a very long proposal for the Panama Canal. It was a pretty big undertaking (took me a couple of days), because it brings together some major events in the history of South America, Australia-New Zealand, the USSR, even France. It mostly drew on Lahbas' ideas: XiReney and I both argued for a different course, but Lahbas was so damn convincing... This hopefully won't contradict a whole lot of canon material. Darien and Costa Rica, yes, but I wrote those pages and am willing to change them if this gets accepted. The biggest change is that the USS Benjamin Franklin sailed around Cape Horn instead of through the Canal... that may push some things back by a couple of months but otherwise should leave the timeline intact. Read and comment please (please!). Benkarnell 05:44, January 31, 2010 (UTC)