Talk:Virginian Republic (1983: Doomsday)/Archive

--HAD 11:11, November 24, 2009 (UTC)To the author: I'm afraid Mitro is right. Without significant changes, there is no way this article can fit into the Doomsday timeline. It is simply a fact of the world that the major cities of the US - including or especially Washington - were completely irradiated during the war. That alone makes much of this page unworkable. Benkarnell 23:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I saw the message you left on Marc's talk page, which tells me you wouldn't mind changing some of this page. Here are the problems, as I see them:
 * It makes no sense for the area to be spared the very worst of the Doomsday attack. This was the nerve center of the US government and military.  If anything, the USSR would send more missiles than strictly needed, just to make sure the US was decapitated.  I'd expect targets in not only Washington, but Alexandria, Annapolis, Camp David, and the many military bases throughout Virginia.  The Chesapeake region likely had one of the lowest survival rates in the world.
 * Totally made-up people. Since this is alternate history and not simply fiction, it's best to find someone from that era who may have survived.
 * Saying that what is basically a barbarian survivalist state has a government "based heavily on Rome" without explaining why they would choose such a model. Why are they thinking in such classy terms?
 * Low cancer rates: no way. As said, this was one of the hardest hit places.  Radiation doesn't last forever, but there are probably still dangerous zones.
 * Size: a regime like the one described would probably be much more local.
 * Overall, if there is anything in the Washington region, it consists of people repopulating the area after decades of abandonment. There is also the climate to consider: if ice caps are melting, a lot of the tidewater region may be underwater.

That said, there are some workable points:
 * Fiefdoms set up or ruled by rogue elements within the military: this is something we have not explored enough.
 * A total autocracy held together through sheer force: this probably describes most of the world right now, but in general people have focused on the more pleasant areas.
 * Relations with the CRUSA: While I'm not sure how they would have heard of this group at all (it's based in Australia), if a state like this did hear of them, they wouldn't like them, that is for sure.

I hope you're willing to do some rewriting! Assuming you are, welcome to the project.

PS: Please consider getting a user name. That way, we can leave you messages and can know what to call you.

Benkarnell 03:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If the anon is willing to make this article plausible I would drop the curent setup and move the state to the Appalachians. That area might survive relatively intact, but Pittsburg, Washington, etc are nuclear deathzones.  In fact the whole eastcoast of the US in this ATL is the worst place to build a survivor state.  Remember this is a dystopia so consider the scope when writing.  Mitro 16:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I've already moved it to the West Virginia/ Kentucky area. And I am changing the cancer situation to them euthanizing anyone who has cancer. And the Richtofen charector is me trying to write myself into my nation's history. --69.168.164.130 01:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

And the Washingtonian Empire is now more like a tribute to George Washington than the irradiated pile of rubble that shares his name. --69.168.164.130 01:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

And I chose survivalist kingdom because this region was super barbarious and unruly, and the punishment needed to be extreme to actually stick. And Rome was the perfect example of one of those kinds of states. Thanks for the heads up, I'll include why they chose it in a little bit. --69.168.164.130 01:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

And can either of you look at Neues Deutschland, my newest creation? I want it to be better than the Virginian/Washingtonian Empire. I don't want Germany to be destroyed again. --69.168.164.130 01:56, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I specifically re-placed it so that it was in the gap in the Nuked Places map in the US. --69.168.164.130 01:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That map is not complete and is constantly being updated. Don't rely on it to say that the area wasn't nuked. Research the area to see if their were targets and also consider the effect of radiation.  Furthermore I would really consider whether the cities you added would survive.  In any post-apoc fictional world, cities are horrible places to be, even if they are relatively small.  The big question to ask is: how do they take care of themselves when the world infrastructure collapses?  Mitro 03:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

My new username is Yankovic270. I didn't get the email confirming it, so don't try to email me.... yet. --Yankovic270 02:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Rome and other issues
I'm not sure if Rome works for this nation. Your essentially trying to put an ancient system of government on a population that has been indoctrinated to believe deep in their bones that rule by an autocrat overlord who rules arbitrarily is wrong. That being said, yes having the world nuked will change people's priorities. However its one thing to be a strongman/dictator/etc., but to create "royalty" is pushing it. Whoever tries to do it will be laughed out of office and sent straight to the gallows by his own men.

One more thing, even if said emperor kills all the leaders in a sneaky meeting, its unlikely that it would be that easy just to "annex" them. Didn't the leaders have second in commands or some other form of successor? To be able to survive to create a functioning entity in post-Doomsday America you would need to have some smart (and vicious) SOBs running those states. They wouldn't allow everything just to collapse if they kicked the bucket. That being said why did the leaders themselves go, why not just send some representative instead of risking a dangerous trek across apocalyptic America? Also why would all of the survivors states go to talk? What would they have to gain from such a meeting? Its quite likely that there could be other states who said no and kept their guys at home. And what stops them all from gaining up on their betrayer, looting his country and killing its leader? Mitro 03:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are so smart then YOU can suggest an idea thats decent and isn't taken allready. I'm so clueless. --Yankovic270 05:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Stop being so cocky, it makes us less inclined to help you. We were all clueless at one time, so don't worry about that. Just leave your ideas on the page's talk page and we can help you there. The group doesn't particularly enjoy when ideas are put up without permission. If you put your idea onto the page, then that's Step One of what could be not much more, or could be many; it depends on how much you want to bend to reality and accepting criticism. Now before you go placing angry messages on my talk page again; know this. I had the same problem, it's not a serious one. Mr.Xeight 05:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yankovic270 your attitude is unconstructive. I regret being too hasty when I proposed this article for deletion, but you need to learn to take criticism instead of becoming defensive.  Mr. X is right, we all had at one time or another some idea that we thought was great be struck down.  For example my ideas on the Falkland Islands were rejected outright by the group not that long ago.  Yeah it sucked, but we learn to become better writers because of it.  Both Ben and I have given suggestions on improving your article, and you have shown promise by trying to make changes, but leaving angry and sarcastic messages on talk pages is not a step in the right direction.  Since 1983: Doomsday is a collaborative project, each member has some say in what is regarded as canon.  If you don’t feel you can participate in such a system then I suggest taking your ideas to your own TL.  I’m still willing to work with you, however, so feel free to message me with any questions or comments.  Mitro 13:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

What I said was that if he thought that the article could use some changes then he can do it, and I won't stop him. If Its going to make it better, then I approve it wholeheartedly. I mean, it is better than bashing my creation to bits. C'mon, give it your best shot. Fire away! As long as it comes out more realistic I don't care what you do. Just don't delete it. --Yankovic270 22:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not my job or anyone else to improve your article. If you want to continue working on this project then your response to criticism should not be "well you do it then."  That just tells me you are not serious about your work so why the hell should I care?  That being said I would check out Talk:1983: Doomsday. I think I've said everything I need to say about this article.  I wish you luck getting it approved by the community. Mitro 01:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If the Empire is baswed on the old Roman one, why not have a flag and coat of arms based on it?

First of all, Mumby, the second flag is a Byzantine invention, so the mutatant Southerners would probably go for the first one, second the notion of an ancient Roman-based empire in Kentucky or wherever the hell this is supposed to be is pure ASB anyway. Mr.Xeight 17:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah... Can you help me with that? I have no idea on how to insert images. And besides I am slowly changing it so that it isn't quite so Roman-inspired. And can anyone tell me who was Fort Campbell's Commanding Officer in 1983? I want to get rid of Richtofen. He only served to fill the vacuum caused by me not knowing who was in charge of the fort at the time. --Yankovic270 21:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Richtofen's Subsitute
I have decided on the subsitute for the fictional Richtofen. I have chosen US Army General Edward C. Meyer. It is plausible that he escaped the destruction of Washington by having an inspection of Fort Campbell at the same time the bombs started droping. And the takeover is more plausible by the fact that military discipline and training, not to mention weapons can always defeat ex-bikers armed with squirrel guns.

Confederate Flag
Er... Why does Virginia have the Confederate flag? No where in the article is it mentioned that Virginia was based in any way on the Confederates. Also, I thought they were based out of West Virginia, which separated from Virginia during the Civil War. --DarthEinstein 23:21, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

I know about West Virginia's secession, but I had the leader Thompson declare it a sucessor to the confederacy. Thus the Confederate flag. --Yankovic270 23:29, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

That's fine with me, but it doesn't mention anywhere in the article that he did that. --DarthEinstein 23:31, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

I will add it, but I think that there are so many states claiming to be the sucessor to the United States, so I thought it would be interesting to see the South finally rise again. --Yankovic270 23:35, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

true. but why not design a new flag? abd a new seal? --HAD 09:12, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Sure, but as I said before the Virginian Republic has officially become an heir to the confederacy. Thus it uses the last flag used by that nation before being returned to the union. --Yankovic270 11:39, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with some of the recent edits to this article. The whole neo-Confederacy really doesn't bother me that much, but the massive expansion undertaken by Virginia is just too optimistic.  There is no way Virginia has the means to rebuild Richmond so quickly that they would be willing to move their capitol there.  Also no way would the people of WV support moving the center of power away from their state.  As I have said before Virginia is likely to expand into the area, but it will take time.  I have made changews which IMO is more plausible.  Mitro 13:24, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

I wrote that they resettled Richmond, not reconstructing it. I thought that it would have been abandoned, relatively intact, as it is not abig enough target compared to other sites in the area. And what wuld you say to the Virginians reclaiming Newport News, Virginia? It is one of the few ports I know of in Virginia. --Yankovic270 13:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * An abandoned city would still need to be reconstructed. Without a populace to repair damage caused by weather, fires, looters, etc. there will need to be reconstruction performed.  Furthermore it makes no sense to move the capitol into chaotic Virginia.  West Virginia is still the core of the Republic.  This is where all the power and resources are.  Post-Doomsday, Virginia is nothing compared to WV.  Thompson would be foolish to move the capitol there, no matter how Neo-Confederate he is being.  Maybe in a decade or so this would be possible, but not now.


 * As for Newport News it would be targeted by the Soviets. According to Wikipedia: With many residents employed at the expansive Northrop Grumman Newport News Shipbuilding, the U.S. Army base at Fort Eustis, and other military bases and suppliers, the city's economy is very connected to the military.  Mitro 15:51, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Why make Thompson so eager to restart the confederacy? Why not have a bunch of white supremacists somewhere in Alabama or Georgia do the same thing? I believe the idea of Thompson as a rogue general running West Virginia as a dictatorship is good in and of itself. That said, if you're insistent on pursuing this, it makes some sense that he hid his neo-Confederate views all this time, and decided to finally push them forward because he had enough symphathizers in and outside of his military to do this and keep his hold on power. I agree completely with Mitro, though Thompson's ambition makes sense as well. It's one thing to claim a territory, quite another to actually take control of it (as I hope to show with west Texas). They could easily excavate the ruins of Richmond now, but rebuilding it will take money, resources and time, and people to do all the work and live there once the capital is rebuilt. Same with Newport News.--BrianD 19:46, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

i agree with BrianD. the expansion of the state has been far to rapid and the relocation of the capital is just a bad idea. --HAD 13:40, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Is there any port in Virginia WITHOUT a giant Commie bullseye painted on it? --Yankovic270 15:07, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

No. --HAD 15:11, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't there be a small, older port that still survives? --Yankovic270 15:18, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if there is it will take time before Virginia can use it. They will need to rebuild and repopulate the interior of "East" Virginia before they can do the same on the coast.  This is not something that will happen next month or even next year.  Remember this TL is happening at real time.  Mitro 16:24, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Don’t mean to intrude on the discussion, but as a lifelong resident of Virginia, all of our major ports are unfortunately concentrated in the Newport News region. In an attack, it is pretty much of a foregone thought that northern Virginia, the Tidewater region, and Richmond are goners. As someone who grew up in northern Virginia where both the Pentagon and the CIA were not far away, it was not a comforting thought. Just as a suggestion, you may want to look at Danville, Roanoke, or Lynchburg as places that may have survived and could be incorporated if you have not done so already. Especially, Lynchburg since that is a Christian conservative bastion.--Fxgentleman 16:57, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Ellection Time!
The Virginians are to hold a free ellection at the end of the month. At which time Thompson would peacefully step down (though the title remains). I want to know who would be good Presidential candidates for the Democratic and Federalist parties (Thompson is not running). I want the Federalists to win, but Democratically this time. Maybe for the Federalists you could have the next person in control of the 101st Airborne. --Yankovic270 14:40, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay. This is because they want membership in the LoN, right? I can't think of any other reason. PS: Election has one l. --DarthEinstein 03:37, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Population
Isn't the population of Virginia a bit too high? This is a state surrounded by radiation zones, in the hardest hit part of North America. --DarthEinstein 03:37, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I divided the comnbined modern populations of East and West Virginia in half twice. Now its barely larger than the modern population of West Virginia. --Yankovic270 13:42, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, it just looks funny to me because now it's the most populous North American nation north of Mexico (discounting those that haven't listed their population). --DarthEinstein 15:07, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Darth, it does seem way too high. The population of "East Virginia" shouldn't even be considered, only the parts that are actually a part of the Republic.  Second if you count the radiation, lawlessness, diseases, radiation, famine and the fighting to establish the republic, I wouldn't put Virginia's population over 1.5 mil.  Mitro 22:05, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions
I have two suggestions I wanted to pass along which occurred to me after I posted my earlier thoughts for the Virginian Republic. Lexington, VA is the home of the Virginia Military Institute. So there is a possibility that if it was in session at the time, some or all of the cadets and instructors might have decided to stay there and maybe bring in families or friends if they lived nearby and work with the local community to turn VMI/Lexington into a fortified community. It is also worth mentioning there is a Massanutten Military Academy near Woodstock. I would imagine either or both facilities would be something a militaristic society such as the Virginian Republic would be interested in, since I would imagine they would want to start military training early with children. You would have to research this to see if it is workable. Also, after reading the Cave City article recently, I had got to thinking about the potential of the caverns we have here. Virginia has quite a number of large underground caves such as Luray, i.e. the famous Luray Caverns, New Market, and Natural Bridge. I have been inside many of them and they are huge and beautiful. I think it is feasible people might have used them for shelter. I have not had a chance to do any research on the subject since I am focused on my work on the Middle East as well as doing research on the feasibility of an American survivor state idea. You may want to run with this and maybe create a survival community that is incorporated with your nation. Good luck I and hope this helps. --Fxgentleman 00:03, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Power and energy
Quick question: where is the gasoline coming from? The electricity's easy, since the Republic is in the heart of coal country - the 101st could have been able to get a power plant running again. But WV isn't an oil mining-and-refining area, is it? Benkarnell 01:38, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

They would either ration it brutally or if even one engineer surived, develop some form of steam power system for vehicles. The fuel? The region's abundant coal supply. They would also try to find fossil fuels in the Atlantic or somewhere else in the region. There are bound to be potential black gold mines in the eastern US. --Yankovic270 01:47, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

And if there are any undiscovered oil deposits in the area that are off-limits due to enviromental issues, that means nothing to the Virginians. If it meant fuel for their jeeps and maybe even a couple of tanks, then they would say "Screw 'em" to nature. The Virginian media would depict it as a great victory, and would generally gloss over any enviromental damage. --Yankovic270 01:55, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm... I wonder if it is actually possible to create a steampunk-like automobile. It might be neat to see, though it would take a whole lot more than one surviving engineer  - the Virginians would have an entire industrial system and infrastructure to build, mostly from scraps.  Now the planes - I definitely don't see those using any kind of alternate fuel.  There will have to be a way for the Virginians to get hteir hands on stockpiles somewhere.  Benkarnell 02:02, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Ironic how a community with a name with such pacifistic implications like Woodstock would have a military facility. And it is also ironic that I am waxing nostalgic for a decade in which my father was a toddler, and I was in the -30 range. --Yankovic270 02:14, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Why create a new type of tank? sounds rather pointless. --HAD 15:38, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

It amy seem that way, but it isn't. Thompson has just stepped down, as what is better going-away gift to a former militaristic dictator than a new weapon with his name on it? --Yankovic270 15:51, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

then why not a version of the M60 WITH SOME PRETTY BELLS Attached?--HAD 15:54, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Because I think that even is small amounts it is cheaper to make a WWII-level tank than anything state-of-the-art before DD. Besides, it is not like there are many nations still making tanks in any amounts, so I don't think competition is a problem. --Yankovic270 16:12, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

fair enough, but if uou want cheap and chearful,, why not a bog standard M4 sherman? why a hybrid? --HAD 11:10, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

Its because it is not a Sherman, it is a new model of tank, a one that is named after the now-former President General Thompson. Thus it needs to be distinct from the Sherman, even if it means only taking a few traits from the German tank. Hopefully the new tank would have the best of both worlds. --Yankovic270 16:22, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

the best points about the sherman were that it was/is cheap and reliable. --HAD 16:36, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

But its main weapon was a lousy pogun. The thin armour and extremely flammable engine made it basically a mobile crematorium if hit. It may have been cheap to make, but so was the T-34. And the Soviets got way more bang for their buck (or Ruble). Yankovic270 17:05, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

thats my point. why create a hypbrid using sherman parts? --HAD 12:52, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Because of its ease of production and the fact that it is an american tank. The Virginians also want to emphasize their continuing of American traditions. The tank both shows their gratitiude to Thompson and their respect for American ideals. They respected American ideals all through Virginia's history. The militarism was used very reluctantly, and only because of the necessity of the situation did they create the system. --Yankovic270 13:49, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

then why not a better tank, like the M26 Pershing? --HAD 10:42, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Fine. I'll make it a hybrid of the Perhsing and and a Tiger tank. --Yankovic270 13:37, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Thats better. just make sure to use the Tiger 2. tiger 0ne= not that good --HAD 14:49, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

And since BrianD had written that Virginia explored parts of neighboring states (Ohio, Maryland, Pennsylvania), I may have them plan to expand to these regions as soon as possible. The M31 Thompson tanks would be used as a way to keep more rbelious territory in line. --Yankovic270 13:50, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Oh I agree. The Germans called it the "King Tiger" for good reason. But are there specimens of the King Tiger at the Ordinence Museum in Maryland? --Yankovic270 14:53, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Or could the Virginians slyly examine the specimen at the Patton Museum of Caavalry and Armor in Fort Knox. --Yankovic270 14:58, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. i wounder if Kentucky would allow a view "tourists" a vist?--HAD 14:06, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Portland
Thanks to Owen1983 the diplomat, we have a deal. I wasn't going to do it this quickly, but I think it will work out well. I must say that working with Virginia was one option I was strongly considering for Portland. Not agreeing to it right off wasn't due to any issues I had with you personally (I don't): it's recognizing that this timeline happens in real time, and that such process in real life rarely happen in hours or days. We're usually talking months of negotiations, if not years.

This is how I see the scenario developing:

Any questions or comments, let me know. --BrianD 15:33, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Portland takes Virginian offer of military aid and, if it's still on the table, infrastructure aid as well. LoN insists on oversight, including peacekeeping troops, to make sure that everything goes well. This is good for Virginia, because it gives them yet another opportunity to show the LoN and the world it really does intend to do good here in this situation.
 * It also opens doors for Virginia to interact with Mexico, which really IS the LoN here. A lot of people leading the LoN are going to be, like McAllister, former Americans, or sons and daughters of those American refugees. They have a vested interest in keeping the peace and developing the region, too.
 * Portland continues to discuss its future, which can go one of two ways: the capitol of the Republic of Tennessee, which includes western and eastern parts of the state....or the capitol of a Republic of Tennessee which includes just the middle and western portions.
 * Whatever Portland becomes, it probably will join the "Dixie Alliance" led by Virginia that you have proposed. This is in recognition that working with Kentucky and Virginia, and whatever Blue Ridge and eastern Tennessee end up becoming, gives Portland far more benefits than non-benefits.
 * The status of east Tennessee and Blue Ridge probably won't be decided before the spring, perhaps the summer. Remember, these citystates are discovering for the first time what all has happened since Doomsday, and who else is left on the continent besides themselves. They're going to want to get to know everyone in the region and decide what is best for them. Not now, but eventually (in the spring) they probably would join the Dixie Alliance too.

Recent Virginian Expansion
I have to object to Virginia controlling all of the state of Virginia. They are moving too quickly to plausibly get that far. When this article was canonized we had established there 2009 borders as just WV with a few counties in some surround states. Now in just a few months of real time they are controlling all of Virginia? There is no way they were able to reconstruct enough of the state to plausibly do so. Mitro 00:19, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

The are thousands of refugees in the West Virginia area that would be eager to get back to their homes in East Virginia. --Yankovic270 00:28, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * No, because they are already are home. Some of those refugees have been living in WV for over 2 decades now.  They have built homes, established roots and generally been relatively successful.  Would you really abandon all of that to start all over again in a devestated post-apocalyptic wasteland?  What about the twenty-somethings who are the children of those same refugees?  There home isn't east, its right there where they were born.  Finally their motivation is not the point, there is no way Virginia can expand that quickly no matter how much the people want to.  It will take time to rebuild the infrastructure and make the area profitable again.  The type of expansion you suggest would take several years, not a few months.  Mitro 00:51, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind. I see your point. --Yankovic270 01:32, November 21, 2009 (UTC) :An idea for expansion into Virginia could be to establish outposts along a road to the coast. Establishing major outposts in a coastal town as well as in the interior. Over the years Virginian influence could expand, and a port could be built in the coastal town giving Virginian access to the sea. This wouldn't give huge areas of territory but would allow expansion into Virginia plausibly. Something like this. --Oerwinde 20:21, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * After checking google maps, expanding to the coast via southern Virginia ain't gonna happen. Too many military installations, wouldn't be anything left. The central coast of VA should be ok though. Maybe towards Tappahannock.--Oerwinde 20:38, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

New map of former USA and Canada: [[File:USACanada83.png]]
i created a new map to paste in there all new norther america nation, because we know limit inter brasil-venezuela, but what is the fontier canada-superior? where is easter texas? delmarva and virgina are in the same place? Dineta have sea cost? who of them have contact to great mexican republic? i paste North American Union in blue, around whyomyn, add your country and upload a new version of that file, i was count 23 entities in former USA and Canada, where?--Fero 01:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Assiniboia has most of Manitoba, except for the Hudson Bay coast. Virginia has a good chunk of Southeast Ohio, most of Virginia, all of West Virginia and all of Maryland not under Delmarva control. And Lincoln has all of Nebraska not under NAU control. --Yankovic270 01:32, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * okey, you can paint the map to we all read that easyly and clearly--Fero 02:24, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * look this, is relevant--Fero 02:53, November 24, 2009 (UTC)