Talk:Russian America

Some new ideas
I have some new ideas for the timeline. None of which are canon, but I want to figure them out before I finalize any.


 * With a greater Russian presence in North America, the US would have to abandon all their movements westward. Because of which, the US would move southward, annexing, , , among others. The US would also help to create a "sphere of influence" in the region (much like Cuba in OTL). The US would assist in the Canadian rebellions and the Texas revolution.
 * Canada: I am not too sure if I really want to take an idea from the Maple Uprising timeline, but I can see this escalating into a similar outcome. Upper and Lower Canada gain independence. English speaking UC (OTL Ontario) is annexed into the US (or remains under British control), while LC (OTL Quebec) becomes a pro-American "Republic of Canada." The Maritime Provinces become a Dominion of the UK, while the remaining portions of Canada continue to be under British control. Again, I really don't want to take the ideas from another timeline, but this is an idea I had.
 * Texas: Texas would gain their independence as in OTL, but the US is reluctant to annex the nation. After years of waiting, Texas gets quite comfortable being their own nation.

Nations list quicky ideas
Here are a couple of ideas I have for several nations in TTL, giving a quick history.


 * Alaska: You can guess
 * Canada: TTL Canada would be more like OTL Quebec. The Canadian rebellions would be taken seriously by the US and would allow the two Canadas to become independent. Upper Canada (OTL Ontario) would be annexed into the US, while Lower Canada (Quebec and Labrador) would become the "Republic of Canada."
 * Borealia: Rupert's Land and the Arctic Islands (which remain British) are united to form the Dominion of Borealia. It acts much like OTL Canada.
 * Acadia: Or the "Maritimes Union," would be an autonomous Dominion of the UK, made up of the and includes Newfoundland Island. This would be this timeliness "Canadian Confederation."
 * United States: The US would much like OTL. Excluding the area gained by the Texas annexation, California, and Oregon. It would expand north to include Upper Canada, and south to include Cuba, Hispaniola, and Puero Rico.
 * West Indies Federation: With greater US presence in TTL, the WIF would remain intact.
 * Texas: Texas would gain its independence as in OTL, but the US would be more reluctant to annex the republic, because it would lead to not only war with Mexico, but maybe Russia.
 * Mexico: Mexico includes the border it originally had, excluding Texas and Central America. It would be a commonwealth of Russia up until the late 1870s.
 * Belize and the Mosquito Coast: With greater US presence in the Caribbean, and loosing the two Canadas, the UK would be more defiant in keeping its claims here. Belize already exists in OTL, but the Mosquito Coast would also exist as a nation.
 * United Provinces of Central America: Or whatever they want to call themselves, would remain in a federation, in fear that the pro-Russian Mexico would annex them again.
 * Colombia: With Spain humiliated by the loss to Russia and Mexico, the independence movement for Colombia would gain greater moral by the Colombians. Because of which, Bolivar's "Gran Colombia" would remain a federal nation, even expanding to include more states.

--NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:02, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Update on Texas. I am rethinking that the Texas Revolution would be a failed rebellion in TTL. However, it would be movements such as Texas and other secessionist movements in Mexico that would lead to a successful Mexican Federation. I will still need to work out the Mexican states, but Mexico would actually be an important and rich nation in TTL (as opposed to the chaos in Mexico today). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:57, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * A few thoughts:
 * Is it possible that Labrador would be part of the Maritimes Union as well as Newfoundland??
 * If not could there be some form of secessionist movement within Labrador to join the MU??
 * Would there still be an American Civil War?? Verence71 10:56, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Would there still be an American Civil War?? Verence71 10:56, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Mosquito Coast
At the moment I am creating a proposal page for Mosquito Coast:0:0 and was wondering if you could add the following: The Cabezas Incident; it is a failed attempt by the former nation of Nicaragua/ before becoming part of the Federal Republic of Central America/ to annex Mosquito Coast. Great Britian, refusing to let such a thing happen, reinforces its colony with millitary personel. This is actualy an POD from OTL since Mosquito Coast is actualy annexed with Britian doing nothing about it (for some reason, apparently) For more info on the real event, just go look up Mosquito Coast yourself (was I being rude there?). BlackSkyEmpire 20:39, February 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, very nice. Please, feel free to work on it. I have been fascinated with the Mosquito Coast for a while now (primarily since it has the word "Mosquito" in it XD). Interesting POD. That is exactly what I was hopping would happen in TTL. You say it gains its independence? You mean it becomes a republic? Wow, now I am really interested. If you are interested in making a new flag for this, I have an idea for a flag with a mosquito on it (just popped in my head). No need to be sorry, you were only making a statement. That is the only flaw of the internet, you can't decipher ones expression. But anyway, have fun. I can't wait to see what you have in mind. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:49, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

POD proposal
Here is an prposal; it is a fragment of my opinion on how the Russians expand from Fort Ross: In OTL, Ivan Kuscov, founder of Fort Ross, failed to set up a settlement in Bodega Bay (in which he managed to proove was crawling with many Beavers and Otters; He actualy managed to bring back many beaver skins and 1,160 otter pelts!!). But what if Ivan manages to convince some of the local Russians at Fort Ross to settle there with there families and friends and to take advantage of the wildlife? Let us find out: After succesfully managing some local Russians into settling at the bay, Ivan returns to Russia where he publishes a book called Новая Земля, Новые Возможности (New Land, New Opportunities) in which tells the reader of the beauties, marvels, and opportunities of the land around Fort Ross. Ivan's book becomes very popular following its publication due to Ivans ability to "Express the world around him and giving a accurate and exciting view of what land in America is like. By 1813, Fort Ross has transformed from a small trading post to a large settlement with a small cluster of towns around the area as well; Ivan now is very popular and known across Russia (In fact, a few months before his death, Ivan would actualy be visited by the king of Russia; Alexander the I). Later in that year, Ivan led an hiking expedition from Fort Ross into OTL Sacramento Valley; Ivan later described the area as shown: "There miles of plains beyond the eye could see or the legs could travel and beyond that where mountians reaching far into the heavens; never in my life has such beauty been beheld before my eyes, I will remember it as long as I live". After returning to Fort Ross, Ivan would continute to lead eleven more trips across the land; he would travel across most of OTL California with only the edges of and southern area of OTL California unexplored by him. In 1825 Ivan Kuscov would die by natural causes; he will forever be remembered as the pioneer of California.

The Importance and Growth of Alaska
In OTL, Alexander Andreyevich Baranov was rumourd to have transferred money to the U.S. under his name, he was later removed in which destroyed Russia's chance to expand; but what if Alexander managed to eliminate the rumours and proove himself innocent?? Let us explore this as well:

(Sorry, I will do more work tommorrow, but I hope you enjoyed this whole thing so far. :) ) BlackSkyEmpire 02:21, February 4, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Reply to all
Sorry for the delay, but I have been sick these couple of days. But I have read both of your of your suggestions. I am really amazed and intrigued at the idea. My interests were set primarily at politics, I never really read much about Baranov of Kuskov. Those two divergence would make great PODs. With Kuskov persuading more to go to the Ross Colony, and Baranov remaining Governor of Russian America, this may persuade Spain to act violently to secure their interests in America, leading to war and a Russo-Mexican alliance. Very interesting. Sorry, sill a little sick, so I can't think of any way else to express my approval. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:48, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

More updates
Here are a couple updates, plus some key events in Alaskan history that I have been too busy and preoccupied to state yet.


 * Colombia: With the moral or Royalists loosing in Mexico and Oregon, moral would rise for the other independence movements in the Americas. Colombia would be an interesting difference from OTL, as with Spain moving most of its supplies towards the joint war with Russia and Mexico, Colombia would be able to defend themselves with relative ease (compared to OTL). Despite some fear of the Russians, many Colombians believed that they were a blessing in disguise. Not only that, Bolivar would even make comments towards Royalists that he would seek Russian assistance if Spain continued to fight. Because of this, Bolivar's "Gran Colombia" would be allowed to remain a federation, without fear from external forces. Despite a minor border dispute between Mexico and the UK, Colombia would be able to retain its original border, and would be able to grow. With more success in Colombia, and possibly from fear of the Russian presents, Peru and Bolivia would not alienate themselves from Colombia, allowing them to become part of a greater federation. I'm still working out a possible map, but I predict it would retain the original three provinces, plus Bolivia (called Bolivar in TTL), Peru, and maybe Panama would gain "departmenthood."
 * Russian-American telegraph: I predict that the Russo-American relations would be much friendlier after the 1850s and 1860s. Because of this, plus with an American presence in Russian America, the Russian-America telegraph would not only be complete, it may in fact beat the Trans-Atlantic telegraph to become the first telegraph to connect North America to Europe.
 * Trans-Alaskan pipeline: I am not much into oil, but this would play an important role in the Alaskan economy and history. I will need to do more research on it before I can determine if there are any changes.

That's all for now. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:46, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

Oblasts to states
Just something I have been deciding on for weeks now. I believe it seems more likely that Alaska would be made up of states rather than oblasts.

Alaska is now divided into states. The Russians use the word государство rather than the word штат (which is used in other nations). The states are divided into oblasts, which act like counties. Because these states act as sovereign nations, singular words are commonly used for the states (rather than full words as would be the case for using oblasts).

The use of the term state is in reference to the fact that Alaska was formed by the unification of [than] independent nations. Unlike Russian oblasts (and other federal subjects), the states have similar patriotism for their state (just like in the US). The State of Vancouver would be the only exception in both cases. In both English and Russian, it would be called the "State of Vancouver" (Ванкуверский штат), and is divided into counties. This is similar to how several states of the US refer to themselves as "Commonwealths," and how Louisiana is divided into parishes (rather than counties). The reasoning for this comes from the same reason for Louisiana (English nostalgia and heritage). I will be working on updates later. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:59, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

States to Governorates
Again, change the status of the Alaskan subdivisions. First from oblasts to states, not states to governorates. The main reason for this, I began to think about what an oblast really was. Here's my logic... England is divided into counties. When the English set up colonies in Americas, they were organized into counties, which were organized into provinces. In the case of Russia, the Empire was divided into oblasts (and governorates). When Russia sets up colonies in America, they would be organized into oblasts, which would be organized together into governorates? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:12, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

On the state/province level, it'd be "Governate." The was the Russian Empire version of it, anyways. Oblasts were actually under the Governates, kinda like the counties. So yeah, more or less what you describe. Lordganon 00:34, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here's Nuckie!!!
I have been getting back into the timeline again. I still believe A LOT needs to be done for the timeline. Articles to be cleaned, information to be updated, and stuff. Here are a couple of announcements and stuff to be coming up in the near future.


 * Alaska to Alyeska: I don't know why I want to do this, maybe for a sense of change between ttl and otl. But I am going to be doing this due to history and to differentiate the mostly Russian-speaking nation to the now English-speaking state of the USA. You can read more about my justification here, but I think the name is an interesting change. Obviously, this is only a change for the English language, with the Russian name remaining the same as it has always been. I hope you enjoy the change to the Alaska:Alyeskian Democratic Federative Republic:0 as much as I feel.


 * New Governorate of Queen Charlotte: After doing some more reading on the Queen Charlotte Islands, I am more confident that the British would have colonized the islands more extensively than otl, and the answer is simple: the Russians are Coming! The population would be much, much larger (preferably over a million permanent residents). Though the islands would have a growing Russian population, I predict it would remain dominantly English, adding to the Anglophonic community of the ADFR. Still a lot to do, but I have already updated the flag to now have 18 stars. This also makes me happy, not the number of governorates can be counted by nines (3x3=10 XD). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Other stuff: Other things I have in mind, but not too much detail at the present are... the US WILL get Texas, just not all of it; Chile and Argentina may merge to be one nation; and a lot more to come. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

No Japanese Expedition?
Hello there nuke. Since not many people been on the talk page, I thought I accompany you.

I was thinking about the Matthew Perry expedition that caused the westernization of Japan. However, since the OTL Western USA Coast now is part of both Mexico and Russia, I doubt that expedition will occur in the timeline. What do you think?

RandomWriterGuy 20:30, November 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess not. I never heard of him. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:51, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

That's surprising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_C._Perry

Pretty famous, imo.

Lordganon 22:04, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I am very suprised about this Nuke. Let me give you a small summary about who he is.

Matthew Perry was sent to Japan by the USA government in 1852 to ask the Japanese to open up trade to the west. Concerned about the events in China, Japan reluctantly agreed.This led to a domino effect that caused Japan to be one of the strongest countries in Asia.

Without this expedition, what do you think mught happen to Japan?

RandomWriterGuy 03:55, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Why am I not surprised that everybody is making a big deal about this. Я люблю Россию, нет Японию!! Но, я люблю хентай (ХР)


 * I had an idea for another timeline, but it could maybe be possible for this timeline... maybe. I AM NOT PROPOSING THIS YET, SO DON'T TAKE THIS LIKE IT IS GOING TO BECOME CANON OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE.


 * Russia would be the ones who open up Japan to the west. This Russo-Japanese cooperation could eventually lead to no Russo-Japanese war, Russia could peacefully expand into Manchuria, and Japan would keep Korea (not to mention other potential land grabs in China... maybe). The war with Germany and Austria would still lead to the Russian Revolution and the formation of the Soviet Union (maybe now with a Manchu SSR). Because of the closer relations with Russia/USSR, nationalist Japan may either remain neutral during WWII, or may even side with the Allies. The Empire of Japan still exists (whether that would be better than OTL Japan), which includes Korea, Taiwan, and the Kuril Islands (НЕТ САХАЛИН!!!). Maybe this could lead to the continuation of the USSR (rather than it collapsing completely).


 * This is just an idea I had for another timeline. I have already made canon that Japan invades the Catherine Archipelago and goes to war with Alaska, and that the US would still gain Hawaii (it just doesn't become a state). But for a long time, I have considered how a vast Russian colonial presence in the Pacific would affect the ambitions of Japan. In Russian America Expansion (this timelines evil twin [I say that with no disrespect]), Alaska actually sides with Japan, and both stay out of WWII, and become the rulers of the Pacific.


 * In other words, I am open to any suggestions, as long as they don't completely diverge from what is already canon. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:34, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not a big deal, was just a surprise, lol.

Siding with the Allies might be possible. If they get their resources from the USSR, that might be an option. But it meaning the USSR avoids collapse would be unlikely. Then again, however, Imperial Japan would, if close to the Russian Empire, possibly have a very.... ugly reaction to the formation of the USSR. Debatable, really, as to their actions. But, overall, I think we can safely say they would not join the Axis here.

Lordganon 05:22, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I guess the "not collapsing" idea was a long shot. I remember watching an alternate history about Japan siding with the Allies (over on YouTube), and it looked interesting. Another idea I thought of... what about China? Could it at all be possible that China sides with the Axis (being a reverse for ttl). If the USSR were to collapse, than it may be interesting so see (at least my idea of) an independent Manchuria which speaks both Manchu and Russian. Also, maybe I could combine the ideas from another timeline I had, having a pro-Russian state in Asia. Ooh! Now I am getting a little exited about the aspect (don't take that as canonization yet). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:31, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

About the only way to possibly avoid a collapse is China-esque reforms, but.... with all of the nationalities, it's unlikely to work.

China could side with the Axis. If Japan doesn't start invading, there'd be a large opening with the Nationalists for a German alliance. Heck, they would have done that otl if it wasn't for the Japan bit. A Soviet Manchuria - which, as you say, would be Manchu-Russian after the collapse - would only make that worse.

Lordganon 05:52, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "make that worse."? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:26, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Reasons for China to join the Axis, and the likelihood of it happening. Lordganon 23:31, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

OH!!! I thought you were saying that it would not work or something. But just to clarify (because I am apparently stupid XD)


 * A Soviet-controlled Manchuria would encourage the Chinese to join the Axis (and leaving Japan open to being an ally).

That's correct, right? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:47, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

It would definitely encourage it, so long as Japan does not invade in the 1930s. A Japanese invasion of China before the war, as in otl, would put the situation to that of otl. Lordganon 23:57, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now I am getting interested in this idea. You mentioned that Japan would most likely take the collapse of the Russian Empire negatively. How so? Would it be (more or less) like OTL, in which Japan occupies Vladivostok and such? This could also allow the continuation for Japan to invade the Catherine Archipelago (since it would have been under communist control, but it would have to be much, much earlier). This also leave open the possibility of incorporating another timeline idea I have had. Pretty much, incorporating my former "Dalnevostok" timeline, in which the Far Eastern Republic remains independent, and parlays it to becoming a full SSR of the USSR. While the idea of the FER (as it was in OTL) made it seem impossible to become an SSR, it could if it were to include Manchuria. So my idea for this could be:


 * China invades Manchuria, which the USSR would reoccupy in the mid 1940s (like OTL). With no communist China (most likely), the USSR would annex Manchuria. It would be combined with Outer Manchuria (the Far Easter Republic [more or less]), creating a greater Manchu SSR.

I even have some interest in my former "Roosevelt's Germany" into this timeline (maybe). While I know very little about China being an axis, I would assume that even if the US were to get involved, Japan would pretty much annihilate China (as proven in OTL). So more anger would be focused on Germany (rather than divided between the two [I am still surprised Italy is still considered an innocent bystander XD]). With that, the idea of divided Germany into six, separate states (rather than simply dividing Germany into "temporary" occupation zones). This could be possible, and I love the idea of incorporating old timeline ideas into here, but here is another major question that should be answered before this... if Japan is an ally... will the US get involved in the war? (let alone Alaska). I have already made mention that Hawaii, the Philippines, and Guam would still become US territories, so an American presence in the Pacific will still be active (more or less in comparison with the British). I would assume Pearl Harbor would not happen (at least not a Japanese-lead one). So what (if anything) would encourage the US to go into war against the Axis? I have no dough the USSR would be able to defeat Nazi Germany on their own (granted it would take much longer), but this would lead to a timeline much similar to the Atlantic Iron Curtain. I dough the Germany would invade Great Britain (especially is the USSR is even more of a juicy target than OTL). Quite confusing. Any thoughts? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:18, November 22, 2011 (UTC)



(UPDATE: I came across this image a while ago. Seems fitting for this discussion). --NuclearVacuum(Talk) 00:27, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think Japan would still invade China that is not held by Russia because they had always wanted to do that.

About the Russian expedition to Japan thing, I might contradict this since before the otl American expedition, there has been no records in history Russians have ever contacted with Japan. I think the country might invade it instead.

--RandomWriterGuy 00:29, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Whoa, Nuke! Slow down, lol.

Japan could be seen as taking it more negatively, if there is much better terms between the two. Lord knows, they weren't happy about it otl. My line of reasoning, besides good relations, is that if they are on good terms, and the Soviets execute the Royals, the Japanese will take it even worse than otl. The idea of executing royals is not something that will fly well. They'll get over it, mind. Any territory seizing would be like otl, though would take a couple more years to be returned. Afterwards, they can probably continue to get resources from the Soviets - they have the good relations beforehand going there way, after all.

Nor is China in the post-war period capable of invading much of anything - too weak. It'd be a sort of movement ala~ regaining Danzig was in Germany in the 1930s.

China would be getting help from the Germans on a vast scale. And with no communists, they are a match for Japan - remember, the Nationalists did hold their best troops back in that war to face Mao's troops. Japan and the USSR would win in the end, but.... it would take some time.

More anger would indeed be on the Germans. The idea of a six-state Germany is appealing too, lol.

Correct, no Pearl Harbor by Japan - though some sort of similar action by China may not be out of the question. The US, however, would still more than likely get involved. Either one of the Axis does something stupid, or FDR gets a declaration. But Pacific involvement would be more limited. Call in 1943 they get involved, at the latest. Mostly in Europe, though.

Yeah, that image is more or less what I meant, lol.

A German invasion of GB is pretty much impossible.

Japan's ambitions were for both resources, and mostly Korea besides that. Thing is, the quest for resources otl and the militarism in place meant that they continued. Not the case here. Nor have they "always wanted to do that."

Russian contact with Japan was only a matter of time.

Lordganon 01:53, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow! I almost fried LG's brains out XD


 * I never really considered much about China, so forgive me for implying that they were weak. I am also pretty confident that the Russian Empire would leave Korea alone if Japan agreed to leave Manchuria alone, and allow the Russians a presence in the Pacific. I also have another idea for Japan, granted it would be going against what I have already said up their (in Russian mind you XD). As you said, if Japan were to occupy part of Russia and Manchuria (to give it back later), than maybe it could be parlaid into Japan gaining all of Sakhalin under good terms. Again, a reversal idea. In OTL, Russia agreed to give Japan all the Kuril Islands in exchange for all of Sakhalin. After the Russo-Japanese War, Japan gained southern Sakhalin. When WWII ends, Russia annexes Sakhalin back, and all the Kuril Islands. In this case, the Japan would occupy Primorie and Sakhalin. When Japan gives it back, the USSR could agree to hand over the entire island as some compensation, especially if they both fight Nazi-supporting China. I could also see Japan being more independent from the west. Democratic and capitalist, yes... but would probably be less intimidating than NATO (maybe a good buffer state between them and the American-controlled Pacific. Just an idea. Granted, Japan's sphere of influence could still cause some concerns within the USSR, but you never know.


 * Not that it has any purpose for this discussion, but I just realized that this would make Japan a permanent member in the UN, and would allow them to continue their nuclear program (IN NORTH KOREA... I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE THAT IS WHERE JAPAN CENTERED THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM XD). This would also give China the excuse to readopt their "five races" flag (I love that design).


 * I just got a devilish idea. Since it seems the timeline is going to be chaining (maybe), maybe I could bring back another idea I originally had canon here, but got rid of. Maybe under the same idea, Fort Elizabeth (in Hawaii) could be successful here (since the POD is still after the failure of 1817). Granted, if it were to become successful, I don't think it should be added as a new governorate of Alaska, but rather a Russian colony which would gradually gain independence. It could be possible, but not too sure. Also, though I dough it, do you think there is any possible chance Russia could gain more in the Pacific (maybe the Philippines or something).


 * I am shocked you like the Six-Germanys (Germanies?) idea. It could also lead to less tension in Europe between East and West (to a degree). I don't want to write more... in fears I will fry your brain further XD (Sorry about that again) --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:24, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry about my head, lol. Too much post to easily reply to is all, lol.

Well, if they are on better terms like that, there's no Russo-Japanese War. Overall, I figure in exchange for selling the Japanese resources, Japan would pull out of any controlled areas easy enough. Agreed on Korea and Manchuria. Japan would have the Kurils, and the Russians all of Sakhalin.

Yep, nukes and a Permanent member :D

Hawaii is a bit of a stretch, truthfully. Anywhere else in the Pacific would be much too far as well. Beyond the ability of Russia to do it, if that makes any sense.

I've actually ran them splitting Germany up, after either of the world wars, on some level thought my head on several occasions, and its an idea I like. Of course, I prefer dissolving it into the kingdoms, etc. after WWI, but I'm a monarchist, so that's not shocking, lol. It's a concept I like, and feel would have been a better solution than what was actually done otl.

Lordganon 08:48, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I just want to be getting this cleared, so here is a bullet list.


 * With no Pacific-bound USA, the US would not lead the area of Japanese westernization. Only three other powers could have done this: Great Britain, Russia, and Spain. Out of the three, I personally believe Russia would make a better candidate, as they are similar in this aspect (eastern nations moving westward). With this, the Russians and the Japanese would have a great alliance during the 19th century, and are still friendly today. With no Russo-Japanese war, Russia would be able to retain all of Manchuria, while Japan would be safe to capture Korea without fear.


 * When the Russian Empire collapses into civil war and finally into a communist state, Japan would take it negatively, which would only get worse when it is confirmed that the communists kill the royal family. United with the White movement (initially). Japan would occupy Vladivostok and that region, as well as the Catherine Archipelago. Japan would eventually give the area back.


 * With no conflict between the two, the USSR and Japan would begin with great relations during the Cold War.

As for what causes the US to get into WWII, I have no defined idea. As for Hawaii, I have been doing some reading, and I think I have an even better idea that simply a Russian Hawaii.

When the Russians arrive to Kauai (for various reasons), King Kaumualii would eventually butter up to them. Kaumualii wanted to keep his monarchy in Kauai, but the other Hawaiian islands (ruled by Kamehameha I) were threatening to invade in order to unite all the islands. Kaumualii believed having a Russian ally could secure his reign, and keep Hawaii out. RAC sponsor Schäffer would work with, and would eventually be allowed to build a fort on the island. Schäffer was quited to have told Kaualii that the Tsar would back him, when in reality, Tsar Alexander was angered about this move. The project failed, and the rest is history. But with a successful Ross Colony, and more colonists to Russian America, Tsar Alexander may look differently at the idea, and eventually agree to support the idea. Russia would gain an anchorage in the middle of the Pacific, Kauai would remain separate from Hawaii, and Russia gains a new colony (more or less). While I greatly believe the Russian culture and language would soon outnumber the natives (as in OTL with English), Russia may be more willing to cooperate with them. Much like the UK in OTL, Russia would allow the monarchy to rule the islands. I could even see Kauai becoming a protectorate of the Empire (much like what Uzbekistan was back than). With the islands separated from both Eurasia and America, they would not be affected (greatly) by the revolution, and would remain a kingdom to this day. I even found out the island had a Russified name during the early 19th century: Atuvai (Атувай). It comes from the fact that the Kauaian name for the island is Tauai (sine the island used "T" more than the other islands which used "K"). Seems like an interesting name. It wouldn't be alone, Fijians call their islands Viti. It is still a work in progress, but I love the idea ^_^ --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:02, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Great relations after WWII would probably be an exaggeration. Definitely, they would be better than in otl, but the communist thing would keep things a certain distance away.

US entry into the war would be one of three things: Something like Pearl Harbor, Something like unrestricted submarine warfare, or convincing enough people and getting a declaration. The latter two options being the most plausible, of course. Probably, it ends up being a combination of the two. Really, otl, following the start of American ships escorting some convoys (before Pearl), all it would take would be one, small, accident to get their entry.

With Hawaii, it's a question of force projection - just too far away from Company and Imperial bases. Kamehameha I - British-backed - would more than likely, despite any Russian aid, be able to still control the island. King Kaumualii was actually at the time subservient in all manners to Kamehameha - he had sworn allegiance in 1810 to him. Heck, the R-A Company was on good terms with Kamehameha. They were not inclined to piss him off. Schaffer also gave that king a literal fortune in company property, without permission.

But, the idea floundered otl, not for any of that. The foreign minister had a report drafted for the company by the ambassador in London, which was what decided things. To quote: "The directors of the Company now leaned to supporting Schäffer and requested tsar's approval to proceed. The approval depended on the opinion of foreign minister Karl Nesselrode who in turn relied on the opinion of Count von Liven, the ambassador in London."

The content amounted to "...according to the ambassador, the disadvantages and risks of a Russian protectorate over Kauai outweighed any possible gains." Basically, it would piss off the Brits, among others.

On some level, I've no doubt it would be feasible. But.... overall, not financially viable, or a good idea politically.

Lordganon 18:33, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I am not too organized in writing on talk pages. As for Kauai... S***!!! Figures, because I was just getting into the idea of a divided Hawaii. I even began an Atuvai:article:0 because I like the idea (I even found a flag that would have been perfect for Atuvai). But in the end, you are right. After doing more reading myself, I have ironically came back to the same reason I abandoned the idea long ago. Schaffer had no connection to reality, and I would greatly support that Hawaii wasn't worth a war with either the UK or the US. In the long run, I need to go back to the true purpose of this timeline, a Russian nation in the Pacific Northwest.


 * Now then, back to Asia. I have made this map to show how I could see the continent in ttl. Japan would keep Korea, Taiwan, and the Kurils. Excluding Tibet and Uyghuristan, China would now be a federation (with large backing from Japan). With a Japan-backed China, Stalin may be more inclined to annex Mongolia in ttl (it's a surprise it didn't happen in otl) and Uyghuristan. Since the Buryats and Mongols are ethnically similar, Buryatia (which was originally called the Buryat-Mongol ASSR) is transferred to the Mongol SSR. When the USSR collapses, they become independent nations. Mongolia and Manchuria may continue to hold strong relations with Russia (such as Kazakhstan and Belarus in otl). With the recent push to create a Eurasian Union, I could see Manchuria being a strong supporter, and maybe could have been a member of the with Russia and Belarus when it formed in 1994.


 * Germany is obviously not in this map. But as for it being divided, just look at for more information. Before I forget, I dough any of the German states would be transformed into a monarchy (but I am a republicanist... if that's a word). XD --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:44, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry for breaking into the conversation and sorry if I'm wrong (this is not my area of expertise and my bias as a parliamentary monarchist is probably blinding me... :P) but I believe Bavaria and perhaps (somewhat unlikelily) either Prussia or Saxony, as the historically most conservative regions of Germany, might retain a limited monarchy. Not sure though. Fed (talk) 23:52, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking that the Spanish-American War would go as it did in OTL, however, the Philippines would not be targeted by the US. Is it possible that Russia might invade and conquer the islands?

RandomWriterGuy 02:36, November 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. As LG already made mention, it is pointless to think. The only reason I thought about it was only if Hawaii would become Russian, but this idea is also a bust. No need to go further on the idea. Besides, I am still confident that both would eventually end up American. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:17, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Just put in blank lines every few sentences, or between thoughts, if you remember =) No worries, though.

Sorry it took so long to reply, been busy.

Yeah, Russian annexation of Mongolia and Urg~ would be likely. I can definitely see them adding that one area to it, as well. Manchuria, though, would really not be expanded like that into otl Russia. By the time any such annexation of Manchuria would occur, that region would be heavily populated by Russians already. With Mongolia, without Japanese armies next door, it would be annexed, no question. A Japanese-backed China - without the three areas, probably not a federation, honestly, but it could be, I suppose - after WWII would be quite likely. Tibet would probably end up a British protectorate, just before WWII, if Russia annexes Manchuria, as well.

Manchuria would likely be part of it with Russia and Belarus.

A few of the German states probably would end up with monarchies. Bavaria, for instance, would be - there was actually a popular movement there to do it after WWII otl. Here, American pressure is lessened on one hand, and on the other federal pressure goes away against it, too. With the British Mandate not joining the rest, a monarchy there - the Brits are, after all, inclined that way - makes sense on some level, too - and, of course, it would be some sort of Hanoverian/British royal invited by the people to do so, as well. (and the word is "Republican, fyi)

Nor would I be counting Austria in all of this, either.

Germany's boundaries, unlike Roosevelt's proposal, would be like otl, I'm sure. As for the states.....


 * Russian Mandate --> Prussia, maybe Saxony too
 * British Mandate --> Hanover, maybe Oldenburg too
 * French Mandate ---> Rhineland and Baden(-Wurrtemburg, add a bit of the US one if this is added to name)
 * American Mandate ---> Hesse and Bavaria

Prussia, Hanover, Bavaria, Rhineland, and Baden would be the most likely. I recall seeing a few timelines in the past based on this, which only had four states. However, the French mandate is not only two separate pieces, but the French would prefer as many little bits as possible.

For the Philippines, however...

The American ability to beat the Spanish fleet there would be unchanged. But, without a west coast, the troops they used to conquer it would really be infeasible, at best. A US-allied Filipino Republic would be the most likely outcome. Though, I can't help but think that Japan may well have gotten involved, somehow....

Lordganon 08:45, November 25, 2011 (UTC)



I would prefer to keep the divisions of Germany the way I initially planned them to be in my former timeline. This would mean that Germany is divided into six sovereign nations (Austria, Bavaria, Hanover, Hesse, Prussia, and Saxony) and two international zones. The international zones (I believe) should be later merged into one of the sovereign states (my support would be Hesse, since it is small). The Iron Curtain would most likely follow the same line as OTL, so Prussia and Saxony would become communist (maybe Austria too... maybe). But... I am open to new ideas. Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't call me a Republican, because I am certainly not one (American political joke, you laugh now XD). Did Bavaria really want to go monarchy? I didn't know that. While I would rather they be republics, I don't think there would be much difference between a German republic and a German monarchy (since the Chancellor is pretty much the main political leader in Germany today). I also prefer to include Austria in the bunch for two main reasons. The first being that Austria (for all intensive purposes) is a German state (not to mention they willingly joined Germany [in comparison to Czechoslovakia and Poland]). The second being that Austria WAS treated the same way in OTL as did Germany. Austria and Vienna were similarly divided between the four allies. Had it not been for Austria agreeing to remain neutral from NATO and the Warsaw Pact, we could have very well seen the creation of an East and West Austria in OTL.

Glad you like the idea of a Greater USSR (Великосоветский Союз?). I also have a new idea for the USSR. With Germany more peaceful (in comparison with OTL), and a powerful Japan, I believe the USSR should continue to exist in one form or another. Granted, not a communist state, but definitely a state. This is also due to the fact that (as I have learned greatly from my New Union timeline), most of the republics of the USSR didn't want to become independent. I have also read that had Mongolia joined the USSR, they would have probably been the most resistant to collapse and would have maybe remained in Russia (or so I have read). While it could easily be that Dalny (the Russian name for Port Arthur) could end up under a similar agreement as with Baikonur and Sevastopol, I think they would also want to remain closer to Russia. So in a nutshell, the USSR would live on here.

My main idea would be that the USSR would be economically stable in TTL. With no major occupation in eastern Germany, economic cooperation with Japan and Alaska, Gorbachev would come to power and only have to implement political reforms and more freedoms to the people. With a stable ruble, the people would feel more comfortable being in the USSR (minus communism), and it remains a nation (minus the Baltic States and maybe Moldavia). I'm sure you (LG) would not like the idea, but I have other ideas. I don't have enough time to write them down now, so I will wait to see what you guys think before I make mention of them. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:24, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Before I forget to mention it, my support for the continuation of the USSR relies on one crucial fact... what will Japan become here? Will Japan become the third Superpower, or will it be (more or less) like OTL China (in which is is growing into one gradually). I know without US occupation, the Japanese economy may take longer to get to where it is today, correct? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Neo-USSR?


I have decided to make a subsection (so continue from down here). Anyway, I don't have a lot of time to write, but after thinking about it, I am now interested in incorporating another idea that I have had in mind for a while now, but I never got around to it. In a nutshell, with large Russian migration to Russian America, Siberia and the Far East would also have a population growth and a greater infrastructure than OTL. It was even said in OTL that the Russian Far East was quickly developing prior to the Russian Revolution. What would this mean? What I have in mind, this would mean a greater population and more republics in the region. Along with Manchuria and Mongolia, I am thinking about adding Chukotka and Yakutia as republics. Yakutia would be OTL Yakutia, while Chukotka would incorporate OTL Kamchatka, Magadan, and the northern half of Khabarovsk (not to mention Chukotka). This would also lead to a greater desire to retain a USSR. I am also considering (potentially) incorporating some ideas of the timeline A Red Century and (to a lesser extent) Russian America Expansion. With no major conflicts in Germany after WWII (i.e., no occupation zones) and a "better" relation with Japan, the USSR may initiate economic and political reforms earlier than OTL. I like the idea that Brezhnev is assassinated, and his successor reforms the USSR earlier, so I may add this (similar to how I incorperated portions of the Maple Uprising in TTL. Whether or not Afghanistan would join the USSR (as in ARC), that would be up to debate and consensus here. But in the long run... да СССР... нет СНГ!!! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:26, November 25, 2011 (UTC)