Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't somebody updating that map above? RandomWriterGuy 06:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I tried to do it, but is impossible to add those letters.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

How about trying to create a different kind of map? Would that be easier? RandomWriterGuy 04:54, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I'd still keep that for historical reference, I mean a lot of the nations on that map still exist & its useful for getting a rough idea for what an unknown country is; plus when this is map game is turned into a proper time line, it would be useful to chart the history of the world. But by all means make a new map RNG with the "modern day" countries labelled with numbers or something, I might give it a try myself you know, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:22, February 25, 2012 (UTC).


 * Scrap what I said about me making a new labelled map, I just got my first semester exam results & they weren't so good so I'm doing more uni work now so I shan't have the time to make this map for the foreseeable future :P VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:56, February 27, 2012 (UTC).

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common, electricial experimentation

 * All of Russian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Swedish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of French territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hungarian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Persian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Prussian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Chinese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hanthawaddian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Bharatian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Korean territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Nipponese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Vvietnamese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Incan territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Itsaygahian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Neue Brandenburian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Spanish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Napolitian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns, electricity used in cities

 * None

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about electricity? we have to assume that something like the voltaic pile eventually was discovered?i mean, already is 1818 and nothing about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:58, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Stability for non-player nations
Just to clarify: from this point on, the population and time ruled factors in the algorithm will be replaced with bonus points for player nations. For non-player nations, it will go as follows:

2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points

Any problems with this system?

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I tweaked it slightly just a second ago, and it is correct as above. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Stability for Player States
Okay, time for the new system. This should be a lot more simple and a lot fairer.

System on Stability
The new system will distinguish government stability score (GSS) from common stability score (CSS). The sum is overall stability score (OSS).

Government stability score is basically the stability curve. The formula is 10*d^1.25/1.2^d where d is the number of decades the government has been in power, rounded to the nearest year. It is rounded to the nearest 0.1.

Common stability score starts at zero, and measures the stability of the common people. This number starts at zero. Economic improvements, propaganda, and religious revivals are +0.5 per year. Expansion and war are -1 per year. Make the most out of your expansion, and choose wisely guys.

When OSS reaches 0, you get a mod rebellion, so you can always change governments before then to keep this from happening.

System on War Algorithms
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/z+y)*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. But you still lose -1 CSS for each turn you take during the war. However, it should be noted that the person who chooses how long the war is going to last is the winner. The winner may not hold the war if their OSS goes to zero. A country fighting on multiple fronts will lose twice as many OSS each turn.

If your OSS reaches zero during a war, you will have a rebellion during the war but it will not affect your overall score.

System on Rebellions
For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Why this works:
 * The stability scores are much lower and much less variable.
 * It actually takes into account usage of resources.
 * It prevents people from accumulating huge stability scores and wielding them against blank player nations who only have the stability curve.
 * It discourages too many changes of government because countries are most vulnerable as soon as they change government.
 * Rebellions have a good chance but they won't necessarily take over the entire country or completely be annihilated.
 * It's possible to keep your stability score artificially just above zero, but if you get invaded, you're screwed.

Discussion
How long will it be until the entire chart is completed? LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:26, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Problem with Stability Curve
I have identified a problem with the stability curves (both the NPC one and the one that factors into the full-on player stability): both make many real-world events impossible to replicate in-game unless every player agreed beforehand. For example, Napoleon only had held on to his government for a few years before he went around conquering places, yet he still managed to conquer many many nations in a very short time. Under the current stability system if the algorithm was used for every conflict, his war could not be replicated, he would have lost every war he fought. Same goes for Hitler's expansion in World War 2. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:16, February 8, Here's an idea, if someone decides to pull a Napoleon, is let them cash in points that they accumulate during the game. These points can only be lost by spending them on a 'free takeover of a country of reasonable size (Sweden can't take over Russia, Korea can't take over China, ect.), keep a large empire together, or save their economy if everyone else's is in the crapper, to get these things, we should have done something big (.a quarter of a token per small sized nation we take over, 1 for every medium sized, and 5 for large empires taken over) like take a nation over or kept our nation together since a certain date (3 points for the people who joined when the map game was made a year ago). This is like an 'implausibility token' of sorts, though we should not hand them out like candy. CrimsonAssassin 02:37, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Iukcasin
Can I join please? I saw this map game and I thought it looked like fun. If I can join I would like to be Indonesia? Iukcasin 18:32, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there is no Indonesia.the closer to Indonesia (in what is the bigger nation of the area) in this game right now is Pahang, but it is being invaded by Naples and other nations.In the other hand, there are at least three states on the islands of Java and Bali that you can control if you must conrol a state on the Indonesian area.And remember: Be plausible.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:23, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can I be Rhineland, and if so how would you suggest going about reforming Germany?Iukcasin 18:11, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

You can be Rhineland, although I fear that it may be a bit difficult to play as a small and landlocked nation. Reforming Germany would be dificult, especially with the Swedish influencing Hanover into working for them. You might be able to have dynastic union with Westphalia and then be able to expand from there, or attack Westphalia, but either way its a lot of war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:48, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Can I be Burma?Iukcasin 19:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why not. CrimsonAssassin 19:04, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwill
I think we should keep an eye on Saamwill. He has shown an increasing disregard for the rules, and his irrational descisions are violating the simplest rule of all. The unwritten rule of plausibility. I think he may become the next banning if he doesn't start following the rules better.

Yank 22:41, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well tell him then! That's the simplest way... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:17, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

He also frequently edits past turns. Now, I can accept people editting a couple hours late, but almost a day after it's passed? And sometimes even after several days have passed? That is a problem. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:46, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sometime implies that I have done it more than once... I only edited days several days ago once, but, now I know, I'll just have to miss a turn. Moreover, if something isn't plausible, you just them... I do admitt however to posting almost a day late. My schedule only allows me a lot of the time to be able to check every 2 days. Saamwiil 05:31, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Bulgaria

 * Location: 5
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Bulgaria(L)/Dobruja(M)/Moldavia(M)/Wallachia(M)/Persia(M)/Naples(S)/Jerusalem(MV)/Ricasolia(S)/Russia(M)/Lithuania(M)/Hungary (S)/Tuscany(SV)/Lombardy(SV): 32
 * Expansion: -0
 * Puppet States:-0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: (14 if we use generator, if not TBD)
 * Motive (Life or Death):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Total= 81

Turan

 * Location: 4
 * Turan(L)/Mesopotamia(MV)/Ottomans(MV)/Prussia(S): 10
 * Expansion: -1
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: 31
 * Motive(Political):5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:5
 * 1*9=9
 * Editcount:321
 * 321/9*pi=112.05
 * Total= 64

Result
Bulgarian victory. Bulgaria is entitled at most ((82/(82+64))*2)-1=12.32% *1.5= 18.48%Turan. Now, using the RNG, the war will last 6 years, letting Turan get (18.48)*(1-1/(2(6)))=16.94% of Turan's territory (plus the half of Bulgaria which they already own. Bulgaria can't expand into Turkish territory beyond the Bulgarian portion)

Discussion
I need to know how to handle rebellion stability. Because Bulgaria hasn't lasted a year yet, so giving it a stability score of 0 seems like it would be unfair. Furthermore, Detectivekenny said that he was making the area owned by the revolting nation equal to half the area they want in order to make it so they can't totally crush the nation they are fighting against. So having it be just 0 from the curve seems to be totally unlike what he was talking about. For the only other algorithmed revolt in game, he used a random number generator for the result, so should it be used? We need to determine what to do, but from Kenny's posts on this subject it is apparent that he had no want for us to just give them a 0 in stability making it very hard for them to win any war. I'm leaning towards a random number, maybe 10-20 or something? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:40, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think Turan's location should be changed to 4. I think we should use a random number generator like Random.org to decide Bulgaria's stability. You should set the minimum at 10, and the maximum at 30, and generate a random number that way.Flagmania 19:52, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

You're right about the location, I'd transferred it over from another algorithm. Currently the random chance seems the best idea due to the precedent, but I'd like more imput. Anyways, I already generated the number if we use that method, to get 14. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:15, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia is Turan's ally. And, Mesopotamia and the Ottoman empire are helping. Saamwiil 05:56, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia hasn't mentioned a single thing on the game page about helping Turan in the war. If no one else has any ideas, I'll do the random generator as the official one. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:35, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the revolters are not the Turkish puppet governments that Turan set up, its the Bulgarian people themselves, so it is just one revolt. Furthermore, your set-up with a Macedonia makes no sense, the Macedonians lived further to the west, so splitting it in the first place was pointless. Your entire claiming of Bulgaria in one turn was implausible and we should have stopped it then, but I decided to be nice and give you a chance to not lose everything. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:49, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Saam, I'm go to say this once: The moderators of this game have made a ruling about your ridiculous attempts to go around the rules of this game. Quit complaining. Lordganon 18:03, February 11, 2012 (UTC) There are not 2 revolts, there is one revolt of Bulgarian People vs. the GTA. So either we use Turan as a representation of the GTA, or we don't have any representation of the GTA so I treat it as an NPC revolt and make it automatically successful. Your entire taking of Bulgaria was messed up, you had two nations which years before had been at war, including a nation founded after revolting from Turan, give up their sovereignty to a sworn enemy. It's highly implausible and we should have stopped it then. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:48, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I know where Macedonia is, I had to give it a name that's distinguish it from a more Turkish Rumelia.
 * 2) I didn't claim all of Bulgaria in one turn. There was an armstice, and 2-3 years later, they formed under 1 government.
 * 3) If the people are revolting against the local governments then the algorythim shouldn't be against Turan, it should be against the local governments.
 * 4) I'm not complaining people, I'm just stating some incompatabilities in the revolts. BIG DIFFERENCE. I was going to go along and just accept the losses before I noticed them. -Unsigned post by Saamwiil

Fair, enough. But, shouldn't the other 4 states also be giving help, (according to the GTA constitution, if attacked every member nation must go to war.) Therefore, the following states shoul be included as helping Turan: Rumelia, Macedonia, ICR & Turkish Coast. Sorry for the inconvinience, but I keep noticing things... Saamwiil 15:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Rumelia and Macedonia I didn't include because the vast majority of their population and the majority of their armed forces will have joined up with revolt, so those states will have collapsed into civil disarray practically. ICR I didn't inlcude because (unless I missed it) Deansims himself didn't post that he was helping and its a player nation. What's the Turkish coast? LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:44, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, for member nations its kinda automatic. Kinda like if someone attacked the USA, all states would go to war. And the Turkish coast was another state carved out of Rumelia to protect the Turkish majority near the coast.Saamwiil 16:42, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, carving out new vassals out of your territory in the middle of a war is kind of cheap. It would be like if Naples was in a war and I decided to split 3 small Italian nations away from Naples to help in the war. Since the ICR is a player nation, you can't control Deansims' nation. One misconception I think you might be laboring under is that there is a significant Turkish population in Bulgaria. In OTL, only 10% of the population of Bulgaria is Turkish, and that is with 200 additional years of Ottoman rule that this alternate Bulgaria didn't have. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:36, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The thing about no new vassals made to help you in the war was already done, when in an earlier war Russia tried to get an NPC nation to become their vassal in a very close war, so it's already a precedent and if someone else pulled a vassal out of no where in the middle of the war I'd strike it down just the same. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:44, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I didn't think of the benifits at the beggining of the war, besides forming a safe place for Turkish citizens. And, Turan has a much stronger assimilatory stance than the Ottoman Empire, almost cruel in fact. But there also has been a lot of migration to both Greenland and Bulgaria. And, even before the 2nd war, Turan had conquered the coast. All these thing attribute to a Turkish majority around the coast.Saamwiil 18:08, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia is sending supplies...Saamwiil 22:29, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I added Prussia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:01, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The war has now ended due to a mutual treaty, here is the new map:

I found it more plausible that there would be an enclave of the area for the large Turkish minority to flee to, and both nations would want the war to end as early as possible. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:13, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Swedish colonies
Hey Collie, sorry to boher you but the recent expansion with Thorlaand and Asgard in meant to be a 2 to 3 pixel wide line trying to reach the other colony. Also Wonderlaand is expanding over across to the other side of the map. Thanks! Scandinator (talk) 23:55, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't knew that first one, but it wouldn't be a bit difficult to communicate with the westernmost parts, given that the capital of your colony is probably on Galapagos?at least before the technology is good enough, something that happened on the western most parts (hypothethical example: Hanthawaddy declares war on Sweden and invades Wonderlaand from Bi Hloa) would take months to arrive on the capital.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:44, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

True, which is why the capital is to be moved after I gain Fiji.Scandinator (talk) 13:26, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also I noticed that you forgot Svalbard. Sweden annexed it in 1802.Scandinator (talk) 07:07, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Full
Can somebody please move the already finished threads except for the important enough to be kept here?the page already hit 172,000 bytes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:11, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

I have done so. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:18, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:38, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

In-game currency
I've been reeding some post, and I think it would be a good idea to have an in-game currency, such as a Common World Currency (CWCs). This system should be used because it would make transaction between x number of countries a lot easier. E.g. China would buy Kazakhstan for 50CWCs. Due to the complexity, however, I propose that everyone gain the same amount every year, and the amount may be boosted with economic activity. Say we all get 1WCW a year. To make it more realistic however, moderators may judge how much the nation already has.

I believe this is a good idea, we should look into it. Saamwiil 16:50, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

This seems very complicated to account for, as it would require us to keep track of our nation's economies from year to year. If we were an electronic video game, then that would be a great solution, but stability is already controversial and complicated as it is.

Maybe the size of the territory should factor in? Like for ever X number of pixels in the nation, that nation which sells it away would gain that number of stability points and the nation that gets it loses that much stability points?LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:40, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nag, that would waver stability too much. Saamwiil 18:15, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Losing/gaining a large amount of money would make your nation much less/much more stable. The only problem I see is that it makes all land equal in value, which is not. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:32, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think that making a simple system for money wouldn't be to complex. Just start it ina year in the future. (5 years from now). Each player'd get 1 CWC a turn, and an extra .5 for economic activity. I think it'd be simple enough.Saamwiil 18:50, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

There's too many factors going into the economy, it would be like the old stability system. There's the amount of industry, the amount of agriculture, the amount of foreign trade, the quality of the banking system, plus the victories in wars that would give them more money and the amount of colonial profit for each nation, there's too many factors. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, how about everyone gets x amount in their own currency. The value of your currency is y depending on your activities in the recent years (e.g. wars, economic growth).

Paying for something would look like:

(x/y)*z where z value of target person's currency. Saamwiil 22:27, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

But wars and such differ so much, the value of the currency has too many factors going into it. I like a stability bonus/detractor better, it is much simpler. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Revolt Moderator
Since in recent years with the Bulgarian revolt and the Indian protests against Persia and other moderator events, and I was leading the discussion of future events, I seem to be handling a bunch of minority-sovereignty/rights revolts/protests in nations, so I was wondering if I should get the official title of "revolt moderator" to determine when minority groups begin protesting for independence and/or more rights. I plan on most revolts occuring after other siginificant revolts occur in the area, or when the main nation is destabilized by losing a war or a bad economy or natural disaster or something. Is this all right with everyone? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with it as long as you read back to the start of PM. Due to changes in history some ethnical rivallies and disputes have never started, e.g. the OTL Croats/Serbs was the result of some Slavs(Croats) abandoning the other group of Slavs(Serbs) to the Ottoman Empire. But in this case the Ottomans never reached that area. However some like Greece/Turan will be there.Scandinator (talk) 05:09, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm taking into account changes due to the alternate history. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Industrialisation
Just a heads-up, spain dosent appear in any of the "Max. industrialisation levels for the worlds nations" sections, and I'm a bit confused about that. Can someone put it in, and also, is there a page on the stages of industrialisation, what they mean, and any benefits? if so, please put a link to it so I can find it. ManofSteele 05:46, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Your on stage 2. I was moving them today for 1810. I've added some of the info for the stages into the titles but to qualfy for stage 3 you must complete the Barcelona to Lisbon railway.Scandinator (talk) 08:35, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Talking about it, am i doing what i need to do to complete the stage 2? and, in realistic dates, the Zagráb-Buda railway should be finished about when, if started in 1810?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

When does Korea start industrialization? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 23:18, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Korea can get straight into Stage 2 NOW. The length of the railway is short Collie, so I'd say 2 to 4 years.Scandinator (talk) 05:38, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Is Nippon stage 1 or 2? Cause Nippon is in both of those lists.... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:30, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Stage 2.Scandinator (talk) 20:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Really? But Nippon only entered stage 1 in 1800, I thought stage 2 would begin in 1830? Or can you like skip ahead if you improve your economy a lot like I've done? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:18, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody expects the Spanish Industrialism! CrimsonAssassin 02:35, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I decided to move Nippon to Yellow due to its recent gains in Kamchatka and also its proximity to China and Russia. Scandinator (talk) 08:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well I guess a thank you is in order: thank you Scan! Oh and does the tripled expansion count for colonial expansion? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:30, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:33, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Prussian-Brandenburg War (1805)
I first wanted to apologize, I had posted something earlier today, and either I did something wrong or it didn't get saved, so I reposted in 1809, I hope this doesn't piss anyone off. Secondly, can I get a war algorithim or something for the invasion of Brandenburg, so I know how much territory I can take? Clearly, I want as much as possible, but I'm not quite sure how much I would be allowed to take. JonAllenMichael 04:56, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia

 * Location: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Prussia(L)/France(M)/United Principalities(MV)/Mecca(MV)/Neue Brandenburg(M)/Nippon(M)/Chamoru(MV)/UAA(M)/Sweden(M)/Denmark(MV)/England(MV)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/Arabia(MV)/Flanders(MV)/Fjordlaand(MV): 37
 * Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States:-0
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Stability: 21
 * Motive ( Political ):5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * UTC: 14:42
 * Edit Count :198
 * 198/32*pi= 1943.8 6 0%
 * Total= 89

Brandenburg

 * Location: 5
 * Brandenburg(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: 25 (government not changed since AGC days)
 * Motive( Life or Death ):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:1
 * Total= 55

Result
Prussian victory. Prussia can annex 23.1% of Brandenburg with a six year war Prussia annexes 19.2% of Brandenburg.

Discussion
thank you! And sorry if I drove you guys mad, it was my fault for not knowing how the algorithim worked. Next time, I'll post earlier. I'd like for Prussia to take as much of the coast as possible, and then symetrically move west. Heck, I'll even take Berlin if possible. Like I said, the point of this war was an attempt to shift the balance of power in Eastern Germany over to Prussia, hopefully I did that. JonAllenMichael 14:57, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I know it won't make much of a differnce, but Turan was sending supplies.

Map Issues
Hey Collie, sorry to trouble you again but Sweden is missing Hanover (1809), South east Greenland (1806 to 1809), Svalbard (1802) and one round of expansion from Thorlaand of 15250 sqkm. Scandinator (talk) 06:51, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also, France must be coloreted in Russia's color. --Galaguerra1 16:47, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

And New madrid Expanded 1550 SqKm three times, i.e. 4650 SqKm. Also Spain took that old ACG colony down near Perth. ManofSteele 22:39, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also Chamoru's expansion into Micronesia has again been disregarded. Those two little islands southwest of Chamoru were invaded by Chamoru. I thought I had rectified this in 1805, but it seems to have been of no-avail. The 1805 map has how it should be in Micronesia if you want reference, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:54, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also Naples, Vietnam, and Persia's expansion into Pahang was not shown. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:25, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Done!!! I've fixed all the issues raised here. Scandinator (talk) 06:01, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Except you actually made it worse, if you looked at a map of Southeast asia, you would find that Thailand does not control all of mainland Malaysia, nowhere near that amount. I'm undoing your update to the map, due to the fact that that there is no way that we would have taken that much from Pahang.. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:31, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

NVM, I didn't see where Collie gave you permission, so sorry for that. But we need to fix the map, but I can't count the pixels, so if you could make a new version that can have the right Vietnamese land? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:55, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithim
Ok, what can I do to get an algorithim call for the Prussian-Brandenburgian War? I've messaged the mods, I've posted on talk, and I've posted on the game's page. I'm about to say I just took over the whole thing, since I've been trying to get this arbitrated for 3 days now. I want to work on my country, but it is kind of hard when I declared peace 2 years ago, and I have no idea how much territory I can take. I'd totally RP it, but since this is my first time attacking a stronger country than I with the algorithim, I didn't want to be accused of being "implausible." Can someone please, tell me how to get an algorithim going? Do I just do it myself or what? I didn't post in 1809 or 1810 waiting for a response. Will someone please help me? JonAllenMichael 16:20, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I made one.Is incomplete, off course, but you'll have an idea. I need the mods to complete it. --Galaguerra1 16:53, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Do we typically need to make our own like that and let the mods complete it for us? Also, mods, is it cool if I wait till you arbitrate what happens in the war before I make my posts? JonAllenMichael 20:26, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

There is no rule saying that players cannot make their own algorithms. Anyone can make their own algorithm a moderator just has to check to make sure it is fair. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:16, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I just didn't know, thanks for making things clear! JonAllenMichael 06:38, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, can I have a mod fill in the the Prussian-Brandenburgian War algorithim up top? JonAllenMichael 06:39, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Russo-Turksh War(1812)
future algorithm section for the enevitable war that will be caused by Turan exploding bombs in crimea, therefore initiating an act of war that killed russian citizens, therefore declaring war on Russia. Turan has decided to go foarward even further...oh well, I guess it means war. STOP BREACHING RUSSIAN SOVREIGNTY!

Russian Empire

 * Location: 3


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Poltical): 5


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Update: 10


 * Russia(L)/Poland-Lithuania(M)/France(M)/Sweden(M)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/Fjordlaand(MV)/Swedish Arabia(MV)/Persia(M)/China(M)/Kazakhstan(MV)/Armenia(MV)/Arabia(MV)/ Iroquois Confederacy(SV)/ Burgundy(MV)/United Principalities(MV)/Mecca(M)/Malouinas(SW)/Naples(M)/Lombardy(MV)/Tuscany(MV)/Israel(MV)/Egypt (S):51


 * Chance:9


 * 2055 edits
 * 2055 edits


 * 3:11=3*1*1=3
 * 3:11=3*1*1=3


 * 2055/3*pi=215199.0 9 66%
 * 2055/3*pi=215199.0 9 66%


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 16
 * Population Ratio(was this decided on? cross out if not):1:10?=10pts?


 * Puppets: -1


 * Total:104(114???-population ratio actual factor decided on or not?)

GTA

 * Location: 5
 * Elevation: 2


 * Motive(Political): 5


 * Expansion:-4(war with bulgaria-military actions)


 * Military update: 0


 * Turan (L)/Rumelia(MV)/Ottoman Empire(MV)/Mesopotamia(MV) /Crimean Rebels(M )/ICR(M)/Wallachia(MW)/Moldovia(MVW)/Haiti(M)/Malouinas(S): 21


 * Chance:1


 * 369 edits
 * 369 edits


 * time: 16:18=1*6*8=42
 * time: 16:18=1*6*8=42


 * 369/42*pi=2660.1 1 35%
 * 369/42*pi=2660.1 1 35%


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:29


 * Puppets:-1


 * Total:68

Result
Russian Victory. Russia is entitled to ((104/(104+68))-0.5)*2*1.5=31.39% of Turan. How long the war will last and the exact amount of territory that can be taken is Lx's to decide.

Discussion
Sweden will withdraw only if Turan gives up colonizing Greenland. Scandinator (talk) 00:55, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Untill then, does Russia have the Support of Swedish Vassals or puppets?(material support would be fine, doesnt have to be military)-Lx (leave me a message) 01:00, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Military support from all Swedish states but Hanover since it is too new.Scandinator (talk) 01:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Before anything, I would like to know where the stability numbers for Russia and Turan came from...the economic and other things and propaganda/revivals(governement reforms)...you know...I would just like to see that graph filled in for at least Russia and Turan so i could see the exact numbers and the exact factors...please...it drives me crazy otherwise...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:57, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

How is it life or death for Russia if Turan are just trying to take Crimea, at most Ukraine? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:05, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

becasue turan "attacked first" by blowing up bombs in Russia-Lx (leave me a message) 15:07, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm seriously tired of your tipical argument that "the propaganda convinced the people that it is life or dead". Really, Russia was only menaced lika that during the Northern Wars. The people is not so stupid to belive that every war that Russia joins in is a menace to the sovereignity of the country. --Galaguerra1 17:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

How the heck is Malouinas helping both sides at the same time. BTW, this would be political for both. The Neapolitan urge for the Russians to totally destroy Turan is just their opinion, not Russias. And we really do need that stability chart filled out. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:26, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

What I think we should do is add a category in the motive for something like an act of war being commited against a nation but not realy a threat to sovreignty type of thing(aka, turan exploding bombs in Crimea and creating the CPA)-Lx (leave me a message) 22:48, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

GTA has an armt, and ICR has posted already that it is in the war. Moreover, in the rules, it says you may form allaince with NPC nations. So, I do believe, Tuareg, Brunei, Morocco & Shahzrur may join the war. Saamwiil 03:09, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

The GTA is an alliance between nations, not a nation itself. It can't fight in the war. You are not allowed to control NPC nations and make them help you in a war. Especially since 1 of those nation isn't even Muslim, 1 can't even contact your nation, 1 is in a war by itself and can't help you, and one was formed by enemies of the Turks that broke away in a war and will not want to back a losing ship. Add this to the fact that you didn't even try to build any relationship up with these nations prior to the war, I am going to rule no on letting you get them to join. You brought this on yourself for picking a fight with Russia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:26, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Wait up, if Mesopotamia and the exclave are vassals, then why Rumelia is a vassal? at best it would be a puppet state, as more than two vassals are not allowed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:12, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I added the -1 for the puppet. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:26, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

So, Lx, how long will this war last? What are your demands? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:50, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, GTA is a nation (besides its name). Each member nation has to supply a certain amount to the government, depending on how Turkish they are. Ironically, the more Turkish you are, the more you supply. Anyhow, GTA DOES have an army. ~Saamwiil

The GTA has no territory, therefore it can't be a nation. All of its forces are from other nations, and thus would go under the nation they came from. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:03, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to say this one last time. Saamwiil, the moderators have ruled a decision. One that I agree with, for that matter. So, quit arguing with them. I won't tell you again. Lordganon 01:27, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Question
When is it okay for Finland to let a colony independent? And how long should the colony that declared independent wait before creating another colony elsewhere (or if not, then never mind)? (Anyway, I also plan to keep Hyvinkää [OTL Timor] until 1975 and I would like to keep Sätōri [OTL South Georgia island] as a part of Finland if its okay.) -Kogasa 10:03, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

The only rule about this is that after 1945, there can only be 3 colonies, and those can't be large.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:20, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

No I meant that if it's okay to let a colony declare independent now, even if they are still small, that's what I meant. I also wonder if a former colony (who had declared independence) could be able to create a colony, or no. -Kogasa 20:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well, i assume that you should jst make your colonies grow a bit more, then wait some years to ddeclare pne of them independent.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:24, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization Question
So, if on the Industrialization page, only Prussia is listed under label 2, should I assume that my colonies have not yet reached level 1? Also, do I need to state that my colonies enter into industrialization, or is it simply implied over time? JonAllenMichael 15:29, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

The colonies are kind of implied over time. And yes your colonies are only in Stage 1. Scandinator (talk) 00:51, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok cool, I figured this was the case. JonAllenMichael 04:04, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues/ TL
I have some concerns about the map: first of all, if Jerusalem is owned by Naples isn;t it supposed to change color to the one of Naples'? Second of all, what are those bright pink territories in the Andes and Arabia?

Also, I propose we make a TL out of the map game. That wat, we could retell the story in history mode, and it will keep the game from going defunct.

RandomWriterGuy 01:02, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

...Pink is the unfortunate colour of Sweden's puppets... Scandinator (talk) 01:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam and Pahang
Look at what I actually posted! I said Vietnam got the part of Pahang which was part of OTL Thailand, not the entire mainland! I repeatedly stated this fact! All Thailand controls is a small sliver of land on the north-east part of the mainland Pahang about the size of Hanover (prior to Swedish vassalization). Why can't people read my posts and then look at the algorithm to see that taking all of that is more territory than we could have taken from the war?LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:46, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Treaty of Sevostopol
This treat wil end the Russo-Turkish war of 1812. The winning coalition states are free to add any additional things. Taking territory from Turan would be plain useless. the territory isnt that big anyways. It is signed in the Newly founded City of Sevostopol in Crimea.

Peace Conditions

 * 1) The Great Turkish Alliance will scede its easternmost outlet ot the Mediterranian sea to the United Principalities.
 * 2) Turan will relinquish any claim it has to the island of Greenland to Sweden.
 * 3) Any ships flying the flag of the GTA will not be allowed in the Black sea for 20 years.
 * 4) The Crimean People's army will be disbanded, and the leaders will be deported to Turan, and never allowed to enter any domain of the Russian Emperor.
 * 5) The GTA will abolish and make ilegal the Trade, sale and ownership of Slaves.
 * 6) To maintain order in the ICR, Russian military officials will remain in the region to make sure rebels dont act up.
 * 7) The GTA will cease to claim Constantinople as its capital.
 * 8) Any more conditions?
 * 9) Any violation of this treaty will be a direct decleration of war against the nations of Sweden, France, Naples, and Russia.

Signatories
Alexander I, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, France, High Tsar of Poland-Lithuania and Tsar of Burgundy-Lx (leave me a message) 02:10, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Co-signed by the French Viceroy Constantine Romanov and the French Prime minister (Talleyard??? if not insert name herre):

Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord, Prime Minister of the French Empire and Chancellor of France.

Joachim Murat, Gran Maester of the Order of Saint Robert III and Captain Regent of France.

Alexandre Pétion (Alexander I), President of the Republic of Haiti and Emperor of Haiti.

Henri Cristophe (Henry I), King of Haiti and Emperor of Haiti. --Galaguerra1 03:30, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden: Wilhelm the First; Emperor of the Swedes, Norweigians, Vandals, Goths, Flems and Dutch; Overlord and protector of the Saami; High Shogun of Finland; Lord Protector and Grand Duke of the Baltic Alliance; Sultan of Arabia; Sun Lord of Fjordlaand and Supreme ruler of all the Swedish Colonies. Scandinator (talk) 05:13, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Naples: Vincentio Paradiso, Chancellor of Naples and Overseer of Lombardy, Tuscany, and the Neapolitan Empire

Turan:

By the name of the Great, Might Shah of Persia- RandomWriterGuy 02:13, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I would like take care of the "protection" that the russian monarchy will have over the ICR. So, if it's possible, change the 6 clause to "Charles-Victoire-Emmanuel Leclerc, High Admiral of the French Armada will become Lord Protector and Supervisor of the Incan-Colombian Republic to keep the order and asure the fulfilment of the

treaty".

We also need another clause: "The territory sold by Turan to the ICR will be given back to Turan or will become an independent state".

I would also like a clause that demands the turkish sultan to recognise Ahmet of Mecca as the true Caliph of Islam. --Galaguerra1 03:30, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Since Naples actually attacked the ICR, they would probably be the ones to occupy it (especially since Deansims wants me to control his nation while he's gone for the next week, and I want an IC reason to do so). LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:41, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

I invaded the ICR two turns before you did. I have asked many times the ICR to join the French Parliament in the past centuries, and a french officer would be a direct representative of the Emperor of Russia himself. I don't want to control the nation, so you can do during Deansims' absence though I've occupied it (I just posted the past turn). Anyway the ICR will be still independent, just under russian-french protection.--Galaguerra1 03:48, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Can you control it then? Because I want an IC excuse to do so. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:21, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

An occupation is excuse enough. Anyway, I used to have a formen incan colony,France is a democratic government and, as occupied country, the ICR will be treated with respect and the occupation will be only formal. You can control the ICR though it isn't part of Naples, but, plausibly, I'm in charge of the occupation. --Galaguerra1 16:53, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

The Neapolitan troops there would help the occupation anyways. But Naples still has former Incan territory and is almost as democratic as France is, so I don't really see how those are any reasons. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:13, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

It looks like everyone has agreed except for Turan itself. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Expansion
I am having a problem with expanding a colony. Russia, Sweden, Vietnam, and China all know how to do it. How do I do it? How do I expand my territory in an overseas land? Someone tell me, I'm confused! RandomWriterGuy 03:32, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

For areas that are black on the world map:

For areas that are gray:

The numbers are the amount of square kilometers you can expand. Check the industrialization section for any bonuses. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:43, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Just wondering, what is the expansion rate into black for the mother country itself? Zagoria 04:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whatever you can plausibly take and control. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:12, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Naples

 * Location: 1


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Social/Moral): 6


 * Expansion: -1


 * Military Update: 5


 * Naples(L)/Lombardy(MV)/Tuscany(MV)/Israel(MV)/Nippon(M)/France(M)/United Principialities(MV)/Mecca(MV)/Neue Brandenburg(M)/Sweden(M)/Fjordlaand(MV)/Hanover(SV)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/Swedish Arabia(MV)/Russia(M)/Poland-Lithuania(M)/Kazakhstan(MV)/Armenia(SV):42


 * Chance:3


 * 2869 edits
 * 2869 edits


 * 3*1*6=18
 * 3*1*6=18


 * 2869/18*pi=500.73
 * 2869/18*pi=500.73


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 32


 * Puppets: -1


 * Total:98

Pahang

 * Location: 5
 * Elevation: 2


 * Motive(Life or Death): 10


 * Expansion:-0


 * Military update: 0


 * Pahang(L): 4


 * Chance:8


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:0.1^1.25/1.25^0.1*2.5*7=0.96, round up to 1


 * Puppets:-0


 * Total:32*1.5=48

Result
Neapolitan victory, Naples can take ((98/(48+98))*2)-1=34.24% of Pahangese territory. The war will last 3 years (ending 1819) so that means I can take (34.24)*(1-1/(2*3))=28.53% of Pahangese territory. This plus the 16.69% from the last war means that the Pahangese government has fallen.

Discussion
Change of plans, have to take advantage of the civil disarray. This should be easy, as their government fell a year ago so the government ruled is only 1, giving them a low low stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... how high is the stability? And anyone who wishes can help out, even sending supplies will be enough to push Naples over the threshold and give me enough to take control of the whole nation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:37, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon will send you military aid if we can get the Lingga islands. Nippon would also establish a formal military alliance with Naples too, and support you in future wars. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:10, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

If Russia can get some territory count me in!-Lx (leave me a message) 00:48, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

France will help you, or at least, if I'm buzzy, send supplies. --Galaguerra1 01:37, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm.... what to give Russia? Perhaps the islands to the west of Sumutra? I'll make a map in a second. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:42, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Here is a map:

LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:55, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Persi asks to join. RandomWriterGuy 01:59, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Supplies or military? (same question goes to France & Russia, plus confirmation on vassals) LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:03, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Military. France, the United Principalities, the Caliphate of Mecca and Burgundy, they're all helping you. --Galaguerra1 03:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg will help too. I don't need any territory but I will offer Naples a military alliance.Zagoria 04:15, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

I added them all, except Burgundy, because I don't know is it a vassal or in dynastic union with France?LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:21, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

I know it may be a little bit of a big ask but... can Sweden get Java? Scandinator (talk) 07:05, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that Java is part of Pahang. the last time i saw it, it was another nation, i think that was called Pedang, or something.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:29, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Java isn't part of Pahang. Pedang never was a nation, in OTL it is a small town on Sumutra or a village in Nepal. Java has two former Mayan colonies, Kelapa and Bali. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:10, February 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sunda is the nation on Java according to the labelled map at top of page, but there seems to be two nations on Java & I'm not sure which one is which. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:23, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I looked at it more, and turns out there are three nations on Java, that tiny little bit of land to the furthest east is its own nation, Bali, the nation on the main part of Java that is on the northwest is Kepala, and Sunda is the main territory. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:33, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can Russia ger a bit more territory in the south or is that out of the question. either way russia is helping, Military: Russia and Poland-Lithuania, Kazakhstan and Armenian Supplies. Iroquois wont do anything casue, well ,theyre in north America!
 * I really want this to be a fairly large Neapolitan territory, that's why I'm trying to give other people areas to the side that aren't part of the main Pahang nation or are on the edge. Naples will help Russia conquer any other NPC nation to be a colony free of territorial demands though. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:33, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Southern Swahili nations(and perhaps african great lakes) I chose you!!!!-Lx (leave me a message) 03:07, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon's vassal Chamoru is sending Naples aid too, it would send troops but is already committed troops to Finland's war, and Chamoru is only a small nation; <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:56, February 23, 2012 (UTC).

Persia joins, yet Naples will give the country much needed supplies. The reason is, why? RandomWriterGuy 04:56, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

The War is already over, you joined too late. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:57, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Finland
Total:81
 * Location: 1
 * Attacker's advantage: ?
 * Motive(Political): 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Update: 15
 * Finland(L)/Nippon(M)/Chamoru(MV)/France(M)/Burgundy(M)/Sweden(M)/Hanover(SV)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/ Swedish Arabia(MV)/Fjordlaand(MV): 25
 * Chance:2347/24 x pi = 307,2 2 1582
 * Editcount:2347
 * Time: 0x3x4x2 = 24
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 23

Ternate
Total:35
 * Location: 5
 * Motive(Life Or Death): 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Update: 0
 * Ternate(L): 4
 * Chance: 6 (random)
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: ?

Result
Unless that Ternate has at least 5 more stability points than Finland, Finnish victory.

Discussions

 * According to the labeled map at the top of the talk page, the nation in the Maluku Islands is Ternate. Also remember to add Nippon to the algorithm as we are sending you military aid. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:54, February 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the map is very out of date, so I can't be for sure if it's really Ternate or not, we will see. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 15:01, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, is really the Ternate.Ah, and i added the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:30, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Right now, i also added your chance and motives.the only thing lacking is stability.for now, for a ampler victory, you will need a bigger stability, though the Ternate is around basically, since 1500, unchanged. they shouldn't have a big stability.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:44, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

France and Burgundy will help Finland. --Galaguerra1 20:46, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and Nippon's vassal, Chamoru can send you military aid too, its army could do with some more battle experience :P Also I think Sweden should be aiding Finland too <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:16, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Rotterdam Conference
Attendees: Sweden (Host), Nippon, Finland, Hanthawaddy, Naples, Hungary, Russia, Spain, Persia

So what's the agenda then? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:33, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

How to split the archipelagos in the Pacific and Indonesia (excluding Sumatra and Brunei) between us so as to prevent potential conflicts. Scandinator (talk) 12:39, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well I want Nippon to have all of the Bismark archipelago and to split New Guinea between Nippon & Hanthawaddy. I also want a few more islands in Indonessia too, but I'm not sure on their names atm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:55, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

All Finland really wants is all the Sulawesi island that Finnish colony Kōshi is on (and the islands extremely close to it, as in a few metres away from the island); all of Timor where Finnish colony Hyvinkää is on, of course most of the Maluku Islands (except the islands I offered to Nippon), and parts of the Lesser Sunda Islands. That's all she (Finland) really wants. -Kogasa 12:58, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Naples wants to be part of this conference, they have territory in that area. Naples will be content with those small black islands which are just east of Sumutra and some territory of Borneo. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:48, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary has a colony in the South Island of New Zealand.if this counts here, so, Hungary would like to say that the only territory that Hungary wants in the Pacific is the South Island.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:32, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Until Lx is back, I supose I have to represent him. Russia has a colony in New Zealand and other in the former Pahang. I don't know if hw would want any more land, but at least those are russian claimed territory.--Galaguerra1 01:33, February 27, 2012 (UTC)



Sweden would like the North Solomon Islands, Solomon Islands, the islands off New Caledonia and thats it. Here is a map of the claim areas so far. There may be errors...Scandinator (talk) 05:23, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Give Nippon those islands near the South Eastern tip of New Guinea and add Nippon's gains from the Ternate war I'll be alright with this claimed territory map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:42, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

I dunno which ones Finland is giving to you. But Sweden is happy to give Nippon the islands south of the Bismarck Archepelago in exchange for a Swedish trading post/port on the Nipponese home islands. Scandinator (talk) 11:23, February 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's planned split of the Maluku Islands:


 * Basically the red areas on the Maluku island is what Nippon's talking about.. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 15:04, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Im back and I want more territory in polynessia. this is not a fair division especialy for certain islands northeast of Austrailia. Im sorry if this sounded rude but I do want a fair share of Oceanea.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:59, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

I also am colonizing Australia too. May I have a voice in this? RandomWriterGuy 15:57, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah that's alright Scan, just have Sweden request a trading post in game. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:49, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy with this division of the area. ManofSteele 22:25, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

What land to I get? RandomWriterGuy 22:30, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

@Lx, Sweden has colonized Vanuatu and the islands off New Caledonia already and is moving into the Solomons Hanthawaddy holds OTL Noumea. If you want more land you can try to take the rest of New Caledonia if you wish but in respect to the islands... there aint many left.

@RWG if you wish sincce Joseon pops in irregularly maybe I can carve a little from the Western part of the Joeson claim. If you want you can instead have Borneo instead. Scandinator (talk) 01:32, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Russia will have the rest of Polynessia, and I propose this, and Scan, you have no colonies on the nroth coast of Austrailia, if anyone deserves it its DK, and if he doesnt come back any time soon, then well you can have it.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:54, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

That was actually Korea I believe, not Sweden, which does in fact have a colony on northern Austrialia, so the old proposal could still stand. Persia also wants a colony on Australia as well, although no unclaimed location has been given. Perhaps we should wait for the Persians to decide? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:11, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Karratha is the location of Persia's Australian colony.

For the claims, okay. If I can sum it up, here it is: Persia has the black part of Borneo, northwest Australia (the one with purple stripes), and New Caledonia. Good? RandomWriterGuy 04:54, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

@RWG-New Caledonia is split between Hanthawaddy (main island already colonized) and Sweden (outlying islands already colonized). @Lx-Fiji is Swedish already and so is Vanuatu and Sweden has established itself on the southern part of the solomons. the purple in Australia is actually Joeson and in Indonesia - Finland. Finland already claims all of the lesser Sunda Islands. So discuss extra Russian claims with Kogasa. Sweden controls all of Polynesia east of Vanuatu already. Scandinator (talk) 05:46, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

how do you control Islands that you dont kn ow exist yet?r-Lx (leave me a message) 11:40, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

If it's settled or conquered, is not unknown.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:49, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Superfast expansion
OK, I was looking at the algorithm, and I realized that massive expansion sprees, like those of Napoleon or Hitler, simply could not happen unless all nations were player nations that all agreed to get conquered. So I made a topic earlier, but the only solution was something Crimson made which I got a general idea of but am still confused. Does anyone have any ideas how to create such sprees? That ususally then end in the conquerer's lands either being broken apart by micronationalists or having surrounding nations crush them, so maybe give people bonus expansion as long as they lose all of it within 10 years and come out weaker in the end? Any ideas? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:40, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Let's make a hypothetical Europe example. if say, Spain, conquers France, Naples, Sweden and the German states, this means that only Spin will be able to post during this period which the said player nations (the german states don't count except for Prussia) are conquered?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:28, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, I believe the only way to do this is by establishing a table that shows a perfecionality of nation's army. For example, at Napoleon;s time, France had the best army in the world. If your army is large enough (which the table should show), you can take down multiple countries in one turn (only those who have a much lower ranking). I mean, this is how Napoleon was able to squash numerous countries, right? RandomWriterGuy 16:00, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

That seems like it would just be stability. My current idea is that you could sacrifice future stability points for a future increase. For example, lets say a nation has 30 stability points. They then give 20 up in ten years for having 50 in ten years. So for the next decade, you would have 50 stability points, but when its over you only have 10 left. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:51, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

I also have another addition: you know how the Aztecs and Incans fell to the Spanish even though they have small forces? I got a good idea: all nations with an industrial color of green, blue, or purple can be squashed immedietly in one move. How about that? RandomWriterGuy 19:42, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Second Spanish-Moroccan invasion
Hey guys, I do not know how to do the algorithm for wars, so can someone do one here for my second invasion of morocco? ManofSteele 22:28, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Unfair Targeting of RandomWriterGuy
In my opinion, the recent moderator event was strongly biased against Persia. Persia spent a great deal of time and effort bringing East Yemen and North Brunei out of civil disarray, if you read my moderator event which had them join Persia, the people there voluntarily wanted to join Persia. Their revolts make no sense whatsoever. Furthermore, having them occur at the same time as the Indian revolt seems to me to be unreasonable. RWG has not done any sort of actions to merit having all of his non-Persian territories revolt at once like that, and to me this seems biased and downright mean. I propose having the biased and contradictory East Yemen and North Brunei events deleted. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:05, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Having so much expansion without a single algorythm just ain't right. LLB you must remember the Persian homeland is not a fertile place. Also the current Persian population is over 50% Indian. It is not a MASSIVE co-oridinated rebellion but small groups rebelling at the same time. It will most likely last for a year except in Brunei and will die out soon. I'm keeping Brunei in revolt as I do not think its fair for DK to leave for two months and his nation remains intact whilst the Brunei player leaves for a month and its half conquered. Scandinator (talk) 05:36, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, Lurk. Scan's not being fair again. Lordganon 05:55, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I try to take OTL Lithuania with support of the algorythm... and get raged at. He tries to take Malaysian Borneo, Yemen and half of East Africa all whilst expanding into India without ONE algorythm... and I'm the unfair one... Scandinator (talk) 05:58, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are. Because you are intentionally screwing someone with a moderated event right after a moderator event aided them. Lordganon 06:17, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

TOTALLY UNFAIR SCAN. And thanks Lurker for backing me up. What the f#&k did I do to make these people angry?! RandomWriterGuy 06:31, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I give up. I'm saying Persia is just expanding uncontrollably and these revolts were gonna be a little wake up call and end the following year. Scandinator (talk) 07:13, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

The Indian revolt I have no problem with. It's the Yemenese and the Brunei revolts, both of which occured after the people voluntarily came under Persian rule becuase the Persians gave them fast amounts of aid after having civil wars. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:31, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Expansion
It is now 1820, and I feel something very implausible happening. Many nations have not expanded! Take that pink nation in OTL USA for example. Why haven't they expanded? Just because the person is inactive does not mean his nation will not expand. Also, why haven't some colonies declared independence, such as the Chinese Mexico colony or Chile colony? They seem ripe for the taking because of two things: If I've insulted some people, sorry, but I'm simply trying to say what I think is implausible.
 * 1) So far away! China is so far away from Mexico, and even more from Chile!
 * 2) Nationalities! Chinese people are so different from Latino people that they cannot effectively mingle with the people.

PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:41, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Tsalagi? inactive? --Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:04, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

China is just as similar to the native Americans as the Spanish were. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:32, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm planning a revolt, don't worry. I just want to connect my California colony with my Baja colonies and connect THOSE with my Mexican colony. So to sum it up, yes, they will revolt eventually and I've got a plan for it. CrimsonAssassin 15:06, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

And Itsaygahi has expanded slightly along its borders, political instability is the reason they can't expand massively. Also, you were gone, so you probably didn't see that independent colonies are in the same color as puppet states. Many colonies have become independent like the Hungarian Newfoundland, Neapolitan Cuba, the Swedish South American Territory, and French Haiti. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:11, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

In fact the entire french America is free. Haiti, Nouvelle-France and Malouinas are three separated but allied states independent from each other. An I think Fjorlaand is a vassal of Sweden, so is not really "free". --Galaguerra1 05:35, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

The system in Fjordlaand is the Incan noblity rule the nation and any laws or decrees must pass the Swedish governor who in reality is merely a figurehead as he passes almost all laws and decrees. Scandinator (talk) 09:26, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Detectivekenny
Detectivekenny is gone. He stated he would be back sometime in February, yet it is now March. I sent him a message on his talk page, but he did not respond. I thus think that we should now consider making his nation an NPC.

However, in honor of his long service to this map game, and the fact that he may return in the future, I propose that none of his nations/colonies loose their total sovereignty. Thus, they could become vassals or puppets, but not be totally conquered and absorbed into another nation, so he could have a way to get it back. One idea I had for Hanthawaddy was for instead of it being broken apart and colonized, we could carve "spheres of influence" out of it like what happened in China during this time.

So, how long should we wait before making him an NPC, and should we adopt my no-total-sovereignty-loss idea? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:32, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'd wait for St. Patty's Day before making it an NPC. CrimsonAssassin 04:21, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

When this day is?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:31, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

March 17. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:43, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say do it on April 1st. So if he comes back to find his country in tatters, we can just say it was an April's fools :P But in all seriousness, I'd give him the rest of March. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:59, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

All the rest of March seems like too long, I was thinking maybe two weeks at the most. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:09, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I'm Back
Well, it's a bit overdue, but I am officially back. I stated earlier that I have taken up several new responsibilities in my personal life, and they appear to be much more than I had ever expected. So from now on I will be sparsely active but taking any questions. I will also resume work on my own timeline, which I found some flaws which I found. But I am here to stay, and I am glad to see everything seems to be working smoothly. I applaud you, Collie, Scandinator, LurkerLordB and everyone who kept this game afloat while I was gone. I will also resume control of Hanthawaddy, but I may not be active every day between school and extracurricular activities. Please address any issues below. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:18, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

DK, Sweden is attempting in game to obtain Toeh Ngoa Nyoing and Iceland. I did not directly attack but have awaited your return. Thus almost 40 years of persuading the peoples of the two lands can they be added to Sweden? Also please check the Treaty of Rotterdam regarding Australasia and Oceania's colonization Scandinator (talk) 05:56, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I will accept personal union, but I kind of want Toeh Ngoa Nyoing to maintain its culture. You can apply the Latin name Polaria, which is a direct translation of Toeh Ngoa Nyoing, which means "land of the north star." <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:54, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Is semi autonomy within the Swedish Empire ok? Scandinator (talk) 07:44, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yes under these conditions: I'm fine with the first but I wish to retain them till the end of days as they are on the Scandinavian Peninsula. Scandinator (talk) 11:46, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I can control the actions of the Nauns/Polarians.
 * 2) I can gets independence when the climate is right :) <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 08:21, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Then I would prefer to keep the country thank you very much. I need the area to be culturally intact because it's basically my free space for cultural creativity, and if its culture is threatened then I wish to be able to pull out. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:01, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon

 * Location: 2


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Social): 6


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Update: 15


 * Nippon(L)/Chamoru(MV)/Sunda(MP)/Finland(M)/Kazami(MP)/Vietnam(M)/Neue Brandenburg(M)/France(M)/Burgundy(MV)/Mecca(MV)/United Principalities(MV)/Burma(M)/Ngainkeh rebels(M)/Korea(M)/Persia(M)/China(M): 43


 * Chance: 2337/21 x pi = 349.614382
 * Time:1x3x7 = 21
 * Editcount:2337


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 21


 * Total: 99

Hanthawaddy

 * Location: 2


 * Motive(Moral): 6


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military update: 0


 * Hanthawaddy(L)/Persia(MW): 6


 * Chance:1393/32 x pi = 136.757455
 * Editcount:1393
 * Time:8x4x0 = 32


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 30


 * Total: 59

Result
99/155 = 0.619354839 - 0.5 = 0.119354839 x2 = 0.2774194

Nipponese victory. Nippon has right to 27.7% of Hanthawaddian territory (9,556 pixels)

Discussion
I've done the bits of the algorithm that I knew what to do but I've left some of it out if I was unsure on (e.g. stability) & to let the mods do it for fairness (e.g. chance), <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:39, March 3, 2012 (UTC).

I think you don't have any puppet, but a vassal state, and that doesn't count as puppet. Also, Brugundy, Mecca and the United Principalities will be helping you ^^. --Galaguerra1 19:50, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that the Republic of Kazami (Finnish Puppet State) will also help in your war. -Kogasa 19:51, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I do have a puppet state, I did a coup in Sunda which was in civil dissarray so a Nipponese puppet government took over in 1821. But I know Vassal states help in wars, but puppets do as well then I take it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:20, March 3, 2012 (UTC).

Neue Brandenburg is giving full support to Nippon in the conflict.Zagoria 04:44, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Take what you want of the Pacific colonies. But can Ngainkeh become independent once you're done with it? I actually wanted a war so I could shed off my colonies and let Bengal become a mid-wealthy state. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 07:06, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually going to let you keep south Hgainkeh, and I've been planning this war for a while & all the talks of dividing your empire were worrying me :O but its worked out alright for me I guess. Sorry about this, returning & then finding you've just been invaded :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:01, March 4, 2012 (UTC).
 * I guess I should of read the game before posting here :P Rather than let Hanthawaddy keep south Hgainkeh, I'll turn it into a Nipponese puppet state. I didn't read the stuff about them wanting independence, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:10, March 4, 2012 (UTC).

Right I've done some more of the algorithm, but I'm not sure if Hanthawaddy has any allies aiding them, and what some of Nippon's allies are doing who haven't said anything (China, Korea Persia, Prussia and Naples). Otherwise a mod needs to do chance, and stability as I haven't the foggiest how to do stability, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:48, March 4, 2012 (UTC).

Can a mod finish the algorithm? I wanna know if I've won or not cause I need to word my posts appropriately; <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:43, March 5, 2012 (UTC).

Right well thanks to Scan for doing the stability :D

Now would a mod mind doing the chance for Nippon & Hanthawaddy? Also how does this whole percentage take-over thing work? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:42, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Right. the only thing it is lacking, is the quantity of pixels that Nippon will annex.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:06, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the chance collie (and the maps while I'm at it), but how do we get the quantity of pixels Nippon can annex? Plus I can chose to end the war whenever I choose to right? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:31, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

How much land does Korea get? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 23:38, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Add China to this. CrimsonAssassin 18:30, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I added China to the algorithm I think I re-did it alright. Just changing 96 to 99, the rest of the victory formula keeps it the same right? Anyway how do I work out 27.7% of Hanthawaddian territory then? Do I find out how many pixels Hanthawaddy takes up, and work out 27.7% of that? E.g. if Hanthawaddy was 1000 pixels, Nippon would get 277 pixels of Hanthawaddian territory? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:47, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I would think so. I have the map of Hanthawaddian territory crooped and ready to could but I am detered by the huge size of it and how long its going to take to count!! :/ Imperium Guy 21:49, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well using PaintShopPro and its pixel counter, Hanthawaddy has 34,497 pixels and 27.7% of that is 9,555.669, so I'll round up to 9,556. So Nippon can annex 9,556 pixels of Hanthwaddy territory. Any mods feel free to check the math. I'll do a peace treaty below which will detail how these 9,556 pixels of Hanthawaddy are split up. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:13, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thank god, I had only managed 210px!! :/ And couldn't these be taken from its colonies as well? :D Imperium Guy 22:24, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I included Hanthawaddy itself, all her colonies, vassals and puppets. I didn't include Hanthawaddy's European Toeh Ngoa Nyoing vassal as Sweden has taken that over in the middle of the war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:19, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues
I have some issues with the map. Yank 16:12, March 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) For a few years the New Lithuanians were expanding their territory in the OTL Phillipines. I don't really see any change from the last map.
 * 2) I had been expanding my Kenian client state for a few years after I founded it, and yet there is no change from it's original size.

--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:06, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm trying to figure out how to expand New Lithuania without having to take territory from Satotochi.
 * 2) i expanded it. but it may be because i originally put their borders somewhat sm aller that in the mapo, because i didn't downloaded the map directly.

This is what I think the Kenian borders should lie. Keep in mind I intend to split the former Kenyan kingom between my colony and my client state within a few years. Wether or not one thas more territory than the other is another question entirely. Also keep in mind the fact that these borders are the borders of Kenia in 1630, not the borders of Kenia in either 1632 or 1635.

Yank 04:08, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Could Bharat be added to the map, or should I add it myself? :/ Imperium Guy 09:53, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

I will add.providing that you are not going to go away in one week.and, i also need to invent a new color for you.i can add former Yemen's color.Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:39, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Look at other map games for evidence that I am not going away in one week!! :P And I added in Bharat because... well I don't know but I added it in. :D Imperium Guy 21:31, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Can somone please make an algorithm for the Burma vs Pegu war.
If somone will do this for me I would be thankful.

I've done the layout for you, have a look in the algorithm section in the rules page you can find out how to do the basics. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:47, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Burma

 * Location:


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive:


 * Expansion:


 * Military Update:


 * Burma(L)/: 4


 * Chance: (To be done by a mod)


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:


 * Total: ...

Pegu

 * Location:


 * Motive:


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military update: 0


 * Pegu(L): 4


 * Chance: (To be done by a mod)


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:


 * Total: ...

Result
The War isn't over yet & algorithm not completed

Stability
When does that go up? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:33, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Talking about stablity, I would like to know what's mine [Bharat's stablity]. :D Imperium Guy 21:43, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

The Treaty of Kyoto
This treaty is that of the surrender terms of Hanthawaddy, and the division of the 27.7% of Hanthawaddian territory (9,556 pixels) which Nippon is now entitled to take.

Nippon
Nippon shall take 6,088 pixels of Hanthawaddian territory in form of Hanthawaddy in the form of Hanthawaddy's territory in her Central American, Northwestern Colombia, Aden, Socotra, Karafuto, Ishigaki Island, Andaman islands, Nicobar Islands, New Caledonia, New Guinea, and Australian colonies. Nippon also takes Hanthawaddy's land claims (which were determined in the Rotterdam Conference) in Australasia, Indonesia, Oceania and New Guinea; thus giving Nippon exclusive dominance over Eastern Australia, New Guinea, far eastern Indonesia and New Caledonia.

Vietnam
Vietnam shall take 290 pixels in the form of the Hanthawaddian territory on the Kra peninsula.

Neue Brandenburg
Neue Brandenburg shall take 8 pixels around Laskreng as a trading base in Bengal.

Could I have Laskreng?Zagoria 03:41, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes you can <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:10, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Finland
1st

She (Finland) wants OTL Sydney as a shipping port (read: Finland does not want to own Sydney, only a trading post) and also wants 1000 pixels of Hanthawaddy's colony on OTL Venezuela's coast (it will be turned into Finnish colony called Käwäshiro).


 * Please note that Hanthawaddy's Venezuela colony including the islands off the coast of it, is only 647 pixels. Is that alright with you? Or wanna take some other territory? Otherwise the trading post in Sydney is fine.


 * Sure, I can take the islands too then. It's fine with me.
 * Oh, I read wrong. I thought the islands off the coast were 647 more pixels, my bad. Yes, it is al-right with me, I don't mind. So it's all of Hanthawaddy's Venezuela colony (which totals 647 pixels) and a trading post in Sydney she (Finland) wants then.
 * Yes that 647 pixels includes the islands (which I believe are OTL Dutch Antilles) off the coast of Venezuela. Have a look at that map I posed below, it shows exactly what 647 pixels Finland is getting in Venezuela at the moment, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:03, March 9, 2012 (UTC).

Persia
Persia demands the control of a part of Hanthawaddy's South American colony.


 * That is almost his entire nation, and his government is not overthrown. Plus, the entire Bengal region by far surpasses the pixel amount, even if that was the only territory being taken. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:56, March 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Changed it. Better? RandomWriterGuy


 * I changed my claim. Is it valid? RandomWriterGuy 04:48, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

France
Some pixelf in the south of the peruvian colony. Enough to connect the coast and the uncolonized land so I could keep expanding. --Galaguerra1 02:17, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Korea
May I have either Central America (Panama) or that Columbian colony? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:14, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nippon got those, please refer to the map in the discussion bit of the treaty of kyoto to see whats up for grabs

How about the Peru one then? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 18:21, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Peru would be fine, where abouts exactly you want your 500 pixels in Peru though? Also look at France's claims as they are also taking part of Peru, just to make sure your not going after the same bit of land

Burma
5th

China
6th

Discussion
Right I've delegated territory to Nippon, Vietnam and Neue Brandenburg. This territory totals 6,386 pixels, meaning there are still 3,170 pixels left to be delegated. I've put the remaining 6 player nations in the order to dibs/pecking order for the division of those 3,170 pixels (I numbered them too).

Now I have no real preference how these 3,170 pixels are delegated between you guys, so you can freely negotiate how you all wanna divide the 3,170 pixels between yourselves. Play nice, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:07, March 8, 2012 (UTC).

What's left of the grabs now? Nippon, Vietnam, and Bradenburg got theirs. What's left? RandomWriterGuy 03:29, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can Sweden take New Caledonia? Scandinator (talk) 06:02, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Right following Finland's gains, there are now 2,523 pixels left to be divided. I've put a map up here as you can see, which shows the world currently following the division of Hanthawaddy.

Also RNG I think all of the Bengal region (except the area now controlled by the other coalition members) the Assamese region, and the Burmese region would be more than 2,523 pixels. Also please bare in mind that you may greatly annoy the other players who you are dividing these 2,523 pixels with by taking all of the 2,523 for yourself.

And Scan, since Sweden didn't participate in the war, they have no say in this treaty, its going to Nippon. However Nippon would be willing to negotiate with Sweden for New Caledonia in game, once this war is over. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:10, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can China take the Peru colony? CrimsonAssassin 17:45, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

The Peru colony is 4,531 pixels. You can certainly have a bit of it, just not all of it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:51, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

France would like to have a bit of the peruvian colony. Is that possible? --Galaguerra1 19:10, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah you guys can have 2,523 pixels of Hanthawaddian territory to divide up between yourselves. These pixels can be anywhere which Hanthawaddy controls, it can be anything you like, and you can share the pixels between yourselves anyway you like. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:42, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Just a bit connecting the ocean and the uncolonized land. I'll wait until everyone else choose their part and I'll have the ret ^^. --Galaguerra1 19:48, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

First of all Von, it's RWG, not RNG. Just saying.

I'll just shirnk my claims to just the Bengal region. I'll take out the Burmese and Assamese part. RandomWriterGuy 22:24, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

The Bengal region is a huge region, of territory, taking it would divide his nation in two and you don't have the power to control that many people. Even just that would probably surpass the 2523 limit by a huge amount. That is the heart of his nation, you couldn't take that unless you had enough to overthrow his government, which you don't. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:56, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, lord. Well, I'd prefer to keep the region of Bengal, especially around the core cities of Pengalla (Dhaka), Pahkarkayn (Bakarganj), and Chittagong. Those would be the ones with the heaviest fortifications. Other than that, I would like to peacefully occupy the remote Surin islands off the coast of Burma, as a place to conduct trade. Personally, when I made the rules, I had it in mind that you shouldn't be able to declare war on a country and its colonial empire at the same time. This is because if someone has a large country, and they lose 1% of their country, then they may have lost all their colonies! But these are your decisions xD <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:29, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry RWG I'm forever doing that :P But if you guys add your claims to the map above / look what land is free for you to claim, then this will go much smoother. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:32, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Right I'm thinking I'll give you each 500 pixels and give Persia that extra 25 (RWG/Persia did sell Brunei to Nippon after all to be placed higher in pecking order) so if you guys just add your 500 pixels to the map just here, then that'd be great. Note I'm only doing this to speed it up, or else you'll all be negotiating for ages :P Also note that this map is the most up-to-date in terms of dividing Hanthawaddy, and Nippon's, Vietnam's, Neue Brandenburg's and Finland's claims are already present on this map, so pick a bit of Hanthawaddian territory and add your claims! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:46, March 10, 2012 (UTC).

If you think I cannot have Bengal, what else is left for me? RandomWriterGuy 18:46, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying you can't have Bengal, you just can't have all of it as its too big. As for what's left, I have repeatedly said to look at that map I posted showing the division of Hanthawaddy so you can see what's left. If its in Hanthawadian colours still, its up for grabs. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:49, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I chose my claim: a part of Hanthawaddy's colony in South America (the Andes). Is it valid? RandomWriterGuy 16:54, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

WOAH, Korea DID NOT gain ALL of PERU as it is shown in the current map & how Pita claimed in 1835. They are getting 500 pixels in Peru, as are Persia and France. Burma is going to get a bit of Hanthawaddian OTL Burma and China can have a bit of a border change with Hanthawaddy. These negotiation are taking too long, so I'm just going to do that, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:32, March 12, 2012 (UTC).

How will it be like?
Hello. I'm thinking about create a Napoleon-like character, a conqueror, may be in the 1850's or 60's, but I need to know how will be the algorithm. I need to know to decide if I'm staying with Russia in personal union or I will become independent. --Galaguerra1 18:09, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, f you do stay in union with russia, upon Maria's Death, Paul will reunite the two nations(although his position would be practicaly the same as before, instead now he is emperor of france instead of viceroy), after that union, Paul decides to get rid of Salic Law(or something like that, or putting in exeptions that would allow women to be empress under circumstances X, Y or Z, or whatever), Paul, who at this time will be having a difficiancy of children, would place a certain ambitious french General on the throne of viceroyalty. one again, Paul gives birthto a daughter, and Paul is assasinated, and his pregnant wife becomes empress(never herd that one in russian history before). The French General, after taking over much of Europe(including the German States), decides to declare himself Emperor of France and re-instate Salic law, but now in a much, much stricter way as before. these two things make him many enemies, expecialy russia. the General then decides to March on moscow, captures the city, but most of his invading force is killed by the russians' scorched earth strategic retreat tactics, and good old general Winter. The Russians then launch a massive counter-attack and drive the french out of tha nation, and alog with a coalition of other nations, re-carve the map of europe while the French general is sentanced to perpetual exile in the work camps of siberia for high treson(since Paul would have declared an official Morratorium). This general could possibly excape and return, only to fail and be executed by another coalition nation that does not have a moratorium like russia. Does this sound like a good story or good enough reason for some guy like this to surface???-Lx (leave me a message) 20:57, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'll have Naples temporarily fall without an algorithm (for at most 7 years though). However, we need to address the issue of temporary superfast expansion like Napoleon or Hitler. I suggested sacrificing stability points in 10 years in the future for a brief 10 year boost in stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:00, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

If you agree with supporting me during my expansion, is not necesarry to emancipate from Russia. In fact it would be plausible, an ambitious general trying to expand an already large empire. --Galaguerra1 02:16, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Should such a conflict develop Sweden shall declare total neutrality but will eventually get involved as Naples and Prussia fall. The Swedish lands in Europe may be conquered but Iceland, Denmark, Scandinavia and Greenland will be defended by the powerful Swedish navy. If the French attack via Finland then Scandinavia will fall with pyrrhic victory but Stockholm, Malmo and Oslo will hold out as they are easily defended. At the first sign of the general losing control the Swedes will liberate themselves and their former empire and drive into France and Russia (if they are supporting France still). However we will only annex up to the OTL French and Lithuanian borders as their armies will be worn out. Scandinator (talk) 11:27, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

If Russia supports me, Sweden would fallmuch easly. You're borders are close, so the most of OTL Sweden and some parts of Norway would be occupied, and obviously all Flanders, Denmark, etc... However, I'm avoiding the algorithm as much is possible, I'll use it against the weak states and in the final years of the war to decide a winner. --Galaguerra1 16:27, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

If sweden is pulled in I'm ok with the above happening without an algorythm, but Denmark, Malmo, Stockholm, Oslo, Iceland and Greenland will remain free. Scandinator (talk) 04:46, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

But in this final algorythm, who will be the contestants? --Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:29, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

May be we can use a coalition algorithm as I proposed a while before, summing up the countries in the both sides to decide the winner. --Galaguerra1 17:47, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

German Moderator Events
The last several moderator events involving Germany make no sense, as whoever did them did not read my post where I stated that Austria took over Bavaria, not the other way around. Thus, Austria has no reason to break away from itself and fall under the influence of Hungary. Furthermore, Bavaria, if it just broke away, would be weak and unable to conquer all of that territory. I'm sorry, but when you don't read other peoples' posts, big mistakes like this get made, so I suggest the past several events be vastly altered, or else this game will make no sense. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:41, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, sorry I got Austria and Bavaria mixed up. I've added that Bavaria launches a coup a toppling the Austrian Emperor and reinstalling their own. In order to keep the army from launching a counter coup they are sent to Saxonia before news of the coup trickles out. Scandinator (talk) 22:11, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Ivory War
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: normal; ">Sorry for be so late in doing this algorithm, but I really spected some one else to do make it for me. Also I didn't know the name of the state I'm invading (I don't know it even now). --Galaguerra1 17:47, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Haiti

 * Location: 2
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Haiti(L)/Nouvelle-France(M)/Malouinas(M)/Itsaygahi(M)/Tsalagian vassal(M)/Other tsalagian vassal(M): 19
 * Expansion: -5
 * Puppet States:-0
 * Military Expansion: 9
 * Stability: ???
 * Motive ( Political ):5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: ???
 * Total= 39

Ivory Coast State

 * Location: 5
 * Ivory Coast State(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: ???
 * Motive( Life or Death ):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:???
 * Total= 29

Result
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: normal;">Well, it seems like Haiti will win after a... more than two decades war :P

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: normal;">Also I do not have the start years so... no stability ! Scandinator (talk) 10:55, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: normal; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">Well I need to know the names of the two tsalagian vassals and remind me if other state cooperated. Didn't Ricasolia and Isloque supported me? --Galaguerra1 17:47, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Who's in Charge Here
This is something which was brought to my attention when I came back. I'll start by congratulating you guys on how smoothly the game has been running, and how the industrial and stability systems seem to be working well. However, one thing I noticed since I came back is that everyone seems to be acting solely in the interest of their own countries —which is fine. But we are missing one thing and that is leadership. To be honest, the division of Hanthawaddy was carried out incorrectly, and no one seemed to care —I don't mind because I'm trying to shed off territory anyway. But we are missing leadership. I know I appointed Collie to act as the moderator-in-chief, but I haven't heard from him.

Since I am physically unable to take the role as moderator-in-chief, would anyone else wish to act in that position in my place? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:20, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I may do it, if no one else offers No offense to Scandinator meant, but since he is already in control of so many things like stability and industrialization, I think that the "head moderator" should be someone else in order to balance it out. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:51, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind and it would a great opportunty for me. I am planning on launching my first ever map game after PM finishes. Industrialization is pretty much over with little to do until 1900 and stability shouldn't be too hard too finish uploading today. Yes the table is going up as we speak. Scandinator (talk) 04:45, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

"the table is going up as we speak"=:) :) :) LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:47, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean, you haven't heard from me? --Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:27, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, stability is almost finished. I have no more time today and will launch it TOMORROW! Scandinator (talk) 12:10, March 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I just haven't seen much of you in above posts. I appreciate the work you've done on this game, updating maps and everything, you've been the main person keeping us together. But I would like to see you take a greater role in moderation: facilitating discussions, controlling plausibility, and stuff like that. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 07:36, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, i will try to do it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:20, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues
Just a heads up, nothing Spain has done in the last ten years has shown up on the maps. Am I invisible or something?! Morocco should have been conquered and divided, New Madrid (south west Africa) has expanded 8 x 4650 =37200 Sq Km, and New Spain (OTL Adelaide) has expanded 2 x 4650 =9300 Sq Km.ManofSteele 00:34, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have been confusing New Madrid with New Spain, so i probably added New Madrid expansion on New Spain, and i added New Madrid expansion on New Lisbon by accident.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:53, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Communism (Or Something Similar)
It's getting around the time Karl Marx wrote the Communist manifesto, and I was thinking that we should include either Communism or an ideology similar to Communism. They could be a radical branch of the Levellers that arose in Itsagahi. Does anyone have any ideas on how to incude proto-Communists in our map game?

Yank 02:09, March 12, 2012 (UTC)'

I was intending, at some point, to have some kind of socialist revolution (although it will probably not be until the 20th century). That's why I was having Neue Brandenburg have an absolute monarchy and semi-feudalism. I think at this point it is too small to be a large international center of proto-communism though, so it would be interesting to have some other countries have some sort of proto-communism in the next few decades.Zagoria 04:12, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

This timeline WILL have a USSR. Scandinator (talk) 05:59, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, but which nation could collapse and form a USSR-like union? Russia seems to be more advanced in this timeline than in real life, so it might not be them unless they stagnate for the next 70 years or something. If we want a different name we could call it Collectivism or something. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:43, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Persia?LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:44, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Itsayghi, Neue Brandenburg, and a few nations and colonies in the Americas could collapse around the same time and form a "Progressive Confederation" against the old world or something.Zagoria 14:13, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry guys, I've got a few "interesting" political ideologies and successor states that I'm going to develop via Nippon & her empire. I hope you appreciate the stuff about Shogun Tokugawa Ienari being the father of the new Japanese empire, and social stratification act be brought in too. I mean to bring in some of the racism of the time which has been overlooked quite a lot I think, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:20, March 12, 2012 (UTC).

At least from the Vietnamese, it looks like Collectivism is the name. As for racism, there has been plenty from Naples, who 110 or so years ago waged genocide against Muslims, and who enslaved people who were not European Christians in their colony of Ricasolia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:28, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ah before my time then lol, eh regardless I'll be sure to make things interesting for you all, and when the game is over; the resulting timeline should be rather awesome :D <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:35, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Colour changes
Hey collie, since Turan isn't coming back can I steal his color? Scandinator (talk) 11:03, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, i don't think that you are Scan, all the edits by this IP connect with edits by Spain.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:20, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

If it is Scan, and if you allow him to take green, then can Finland have purple (Sweden's current colour) then? So I can see what colonies and puppets I maintain allot easier. -Kogasa 07:28, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking in put former Yemen's color on you after you cease to be in union with Sweden.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:05, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

It is me. We share an IP address when at school. Note: I did that post via iPhone and he posts via his laptop soo... interesting fact there! I also agree with collie's proposal as there is TOO much purple. Scandinator (talk) 11:01, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Sure, that will work fine too. -Kogasa 14:46, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Persia

 * Location: 3
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Persia(L)/Yemen(MV)/Bharat(M)/Israel(MV): 11
 * Expansion: -1
 * Puppet States:-1
 * Military Expansion: 14
 * Stability: ???
 * Motive ( Religious ):7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * 4*4*6=96
 * Editcount:3014
 * 3014/96*pi=98.63
 * Total= 47+Stability

Adal

 * Location: 5
 * Adal(LV)/France(M)/Mecca(MV)/Burgundy(MV)/United Principalities(MV): 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: 2
 * Motive( Life or Death ):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:4
 * Total= 32

Result
It looks like Persia will win, unless their stability is negative or more people come to help Adal.

Discussion
Persia's stability is too low. Since this is the first time it has happened I will allow Persia till 1840 to withdraw otherwise their front will collapse and Persia's government will be toppled.Scandinator (talk) 22:16, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever happens, Adal couldn't possibly take any territory from Persia other than maybe Yemen. Can the stability table please go up, so RandomWriterGuy can see why his stability is so low and not cause a great big scandal like last time? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:37, March 13, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I've decided to double check the table to make sure I've got everything correct so that there is no controversey. And I'm going to say that Persia cant lose any land to Adal but their government may collapse a be replaced with maybe a civilian or military one or even an Islamic fundamentalist one.Scandinator (talk) 00:31, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Adal is a french vassal, so the expansion of France must be counted in Adal's side. --Galaguerra1 16:43, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

Adal isn't a French vassal. The extremist Muslims there do not trust the caliphate due to the French domination. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:03, March 14, 2012 (UTC)

In the year 1835 was psoted the following: They'll join as a puppet of the Caliphate, but the Caliphate's condition in a couple years will depend entirely on you...

They've not rebelled yer, in fact, the persian attack just made the union with the protecting Caliphate stronger. Adal is a french undirect vassal, and in a couple of years I'm planning a rebellion to turn the Caliphate independent from France. --Galaguerra1 21:34, March 14, 2012 (UTC)