Talk:South Florida (1983: Doomsday)

First, it appears that a better equivalent would indeed, as I summized, be "Southwest Florida" (that wiki article includes all but the tip of the state, plus a county or two above your chosen counties).

And now, my population estimation. Using the population increases for Florida from 1980 to 2000, and interpolating for counties either from the 2000 census or the 2007 estimates given, I get a populaton of about 495,000 in 1983. And then come the refugees from Miami-Dade (98,000), Broward (622,500), and Palm Beach (135,500). The survivors from Miami-Dade county are less because the population was so clumped around Miami. As you can see, Southeast Florida would have a massive refugee problem. The population east of the Everglades would triple to 1,351,000! Assuming just for simplicity that this population is halved in the seven years between DD and 1990 to 675,500, and increases by 1% a year, the population would be 810,600 in 2010.

I think that would be right, but you seem to forget that most of the lands of the Everglades (West of Lake O.) are not suitable for farming, with the exception of lands near Naples. Arstarpool 22:10, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the "Okee Raiders" would have most likely salvaged the abandoned cities of southwest Florida. These bandits could become a real threat to the Bahamas and the whole Caribbean area.SouthWriter 17:58, March 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with that South. What do you think the population of the "Okee Raiders" should be? Also what are your general thought on the article? --GOPZACK 18:14, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hard to tell about how many renegades would come out of the suburbs of Ft.Lauderdale to begin terrorizing the Okeechobee shore. They would also seek to work their way up and down the Atlantic coast north of Ft. Lauderdale (up toward Cape Canaveral). The Beach towns of Indian River, St. Lucie, and Martin Counites would be at their mercy as well. I'd say have a look at crime statistics for the area, extrapolate gang strength, and then figure the number of survivors and refugees between Ft. Lauderdale and Brevard County. Figuring the worst scenario, have a high yield bomb take out the Cape from about five miles inland. That would completely destroy Titusville and launch facilities and leave about fifty percent of the population of Cocoa and Merrit Island down towards Palm Bay. West of the Cape would recieve a double hit, being towards Orlando, which would have been bombed as well.


 * In general, your article seems okay, so far. The Raiders may not be too much of a problem to the Republic if they can hold their own on the east coast. If Bahaman and Cuban forces give them to much grief, though, they could head across the state as a force much like a hurricane (the likes of which the young Republic will indeed have to deal even before the Raiders come hunting).

I think that the Okee Raiders could be easily defeated, given the large amount of population of RSF it would be able to defeat them in a heartbeat.

Quick Question: What would be the biggest city? I live in Miami/Kendall, but assuming that area would be toast i can only leave to assume that Florida City would be the biggest city. Arstarpool 22:10, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Population
BIG WORRY: 800,000 people? In swamp-infested, malaria-ridden, hurricane stricken Florida? Not likely, by any stretch of the imagination. It's only with modern technology that Florida can have such a dense population. They're not going to be able to maintain enough food to feed themselves, the population, IMO should be tens of thousands, AT MOST. Louisiannan 15:51, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * For all population concerns talk to SouthWriter, he has done some absolutely brilliant work in regards to that and has helped me with the populations for many articles including this one. --GOPZACK 21:13, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Louis does have a point. Some of the local population levels in the US are a product of modern technology. Would Las Vegas be as large or popular as it is without air condition? Mitro 22:09, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Goodd point Louis. Seeing that you dropped this note on top of the notes I wrote about the onslaught of hurricanes the area has seen. However, the first, and biggest, did not come until 1992, almost nine years after doomsday. Since the survivors had by then figured out that they had better build housing tough enough to withstand hurricanes that were sure to come, I'd say that they would have been more or less ready when by then.


 * That many people, though, is a problem. They would have probably been migrating up the coast through the ruins. The area above Tampa would have been a lot better suited for a settlement than the Everglades. At least a few cruise ships would have been available to move the more fortunate of the refugees to Mexico, Jamaica, and even Cuba. Perhaps a population of between 50 and 100 thousand would be the most that could safely stay in South Florida.SouthWriter 02:51, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * South you've inspired me to begin writing up an article for survivor state north of tampa centred in Gainesville but extending to the
 * Florida1.gif


 * sea. Something like this. --GOPZACK 21:21, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Some guy named Perryz (seems to be Hispanic) has started work on the page already. I suggest you go over there and manage it. He is new (I've seen you and him on the same talk page, in fact), but he did put the page up first. You can help him make it more acceptable to canon, SouthWriter 21:10, April 7, 2010 (UTC)



"Andrew" - 1992
Just as the Republic was beginning to get on its feet, it received a wallop. The hurricane which we call "Andrew" came ashore near Miami and blew away whatever wasn't permanently built to withstand 150 mile per hour winds! We can hope that ham radios were picking up warnings coming in from the Bahamas and Cuba, but it could not have been easy for the struggling survivors. The date, for reference, was August 24, 1992. The storm would go on to hit Louisiana a few days later.

We've had this discussion before, and I concede that with nuclear summers following the nuclear attacks we would not have the same weather. Warmer temperatures in the southern hemisphere (especially at the equator) would probably intensify hurricane activity. For simplicity's sake, though, we ought to assume OTL hurricanes at least the same intensity. SouthWriter 02:12, March 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree South, feel free to write up a section on that. --GOPZACK 02:33, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * As you can see in the entries below (changed from major to subheadings) I spent about an hour following up on the idea. I will see what "damage" I can do tomorrow with these storms.SouthWriter 03:41, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

"Charley" - 2004
Most of the Republic dodged this one, but two towns in the northernmost county were flattened by Hurricane Charley on August 13, 2004. This storm would cut a path across Florida and hit the South Carolina coast (uninhabited in TTL). )

"Jeanne" - 2004
The Republic again "dodged" a storm a month later in the third week of September. The storm turned north at Lake Okeechobee, dumping "tons" of rain from the Republic of South Florida all the way to the Virginian Republic. SouthWriter 02:29, March 19, 2010 (UTC

"Katrina" - 2005
It is not often that we get such a warning of upcoming disaster as we did in OTL with this killer storm. Almost lost in the coverage was the damage the Category 1 storm did in south Florida before heading into the gulf. The southernmost county of TTL "Republic of South Florida" was among the first American counties to sustain damage and death on August 25, 2005. The storm would go on to devestate the city-states of Mississipi just as they were becoming power brokers in the area. It would probably not be until contact was made with the the League of Nations that any real progress would be made in rebuilding what those city-states had accomplished in twenty years.

"Wilma" - 2005
The Republic took a direct hit with this one. The storm came in from the West, having intensified unexpectantly. Hitting Collier county, south of the capital, the storm spent four and half hours crossing the peninsula. About half of that time was between landfall and Lake Okeechobee. The storm hit on October 24, 2005. SouthWriter 03:28, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

Education
How is it that there would be such a low literacy rate in this developing nation? Are you assuming a large migrant population of Haitian and Cuban immigrants that were not able to escape on cruise ships after DD? If that were the case, a republic probably would not arise here.

I don't think such "pride" in illiteracy would abound. The children would not be forsaken to the ways of the wild after DD. After a republic was established the next generation would be educated to at least a level of basic literacy. SouthWriter 21:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

What I meant to say is that the area of the Everglades is an area where people do not seem to be putting an effort towards vigourous education, while they are focused mainly on survival rather than in the more northern parts which are more stable than the south. Arstarpool 03:30, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

East Caribbean Federation
As an English-speaking country with a Caribbean coastline, S. Florida is a strong candidate for an alliance with the. I think it's an old idea that the ECF has some presence, or at least some close ties, with survivors in this region, and it would be a good way for them to expand their influence in the face of aggressive Cuban exploration. It would also help us see how bits of the US became integrated in regions transcending the old borders. I think it's very possible that we'd see both Bahamians and Cubans exploring this area from the early 90s onward. Benkarnell 20:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. In fact the sooner the survivors can establish themselves the better when it comes to Cuban excursions onto US soil. In the early nineties this land was still under the authority of the American Provisional Administration. I am somewhat shocked that the Benjamin Franklin did not head up the eastern seaboard before making the trek across the Atlantic. But that ended up adding to the mystery of the developing 'superpower' which became the Virginian Republic! :-)
 * --SouthWriter 03:12, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about this for an explanation: the explorers had re-provisioned somewhat while rounding South America, but some necessities were running low. Since the West Coast had been so desolate, they didn't want to risk being stranded off the East Coast with no way to re-stock on essentials, and decided to head in the other direction, hoping for the best. Sort of a stretch, but it would have been a safe bet at least that Ireland was doing OK. Benkarnell 18:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the fact that this exchange is taking place under the heading of the East Caribbean Confederation gives a clue to the fallacy of that scenario. The article, after some discussion if I remember the article on the Panama Canal correctly, states that the ship made it through the canal and thus would have had to make ports of call all over the Caribbean on the way to its next stated destination. To be fair to them, we will have to assume that the decision to head east instead of north from the Bahamas would have been based on the radio signals they received from the Azores. They had enough stores for at least sixteen months, and they could not have been out more than six months with their limited stop in the Pacific Northwest. SouthWriter 19:24, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * That was, in fact, one of the instances where we had to make a "deep change" to canon because what was written was just so implausible. The Canal was bombed, so the ship had to go around. Benkarnell 19:37, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I read the following at the Timeline: "After a hard passage through a bombed and nearly unusable Panama Channel, the Franklin approaches Continental Europe." I naturally assumed that the consensus of that discussion had been resolved. I remember doing comparative measurements concerning the notion of going around Cape Horn. I think the discussion was in the Panama article talkpage. If this sentence is not true, then the whole dynamics of the trip changes. Ports of call along South America will have to be accounted for. This would be in the early stages of the relations between the southern "superpowers," but contact would have been with the more friendly of the nations on the west coast and then Brazil on the east coast. Plenty of places to restock during the extra time, if need be.


 * I can see how the decision to "give up" on the American east coast might have been far more likely by then. The Franklin would have been leaving Brazil for Cape Verde before making its way to Europe. Radio contact with northern nations on both side of the Atlantic would then have been possible, just as the article indicates. I guess that sentence in the original article needs to be edited, and perhaps a paragraph about the trip around SA be put in as well. SouthWriter 20:35, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the Timeline right now is sort of like a cluttered garage that needs cleaning out. That one line of canon was precisely the issue in the long-drawn-out discussions over Panama. The final decision was that we'd have to reluctantly reverse it, since Panama City, as a major US base, would definitely be a target, rendering the canal impassable. I guess I forgot to change it on that page. The updated version is in, specifically in the last paragraph of the section "Colombian Intervention". The Franklin anchored in the Gulf of Panama and moved on around South America.
 * Hm, the actual Benjamin Franklin page also still has the old route, actually a copy-paste from the Timeline. I think that I was just fatigued after writing the enormous Canal Zone page and never bothered to re-trace my steps. It might be worthwhile to check with others who are involved with that part of the world, but I am just about certain that the new story, in which the Canal was first re-opened in 2000, is now the accepted version. Benkarnell 20:55, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Good enough. I figure if you add a few stops along the SA coast, you'd add an itenerary to the mission, learning a little about the nations that survived, setting the stage for future international agreements that lead up to the LoN. Looking at the map, it would definitely be closer to go to Europe rather than back to North America. You might even be able to work in a stop in western Africa! SouthWriter 03:14, April 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * How nice it is when the pieces fit together like that :). I'll try to make the changes today. Benkarnell 13:29, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to remove that content but based on some of the discussion above, it seems plausible that East Florida would join the ECF. Mitro 13:07, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

In order to resolve the conflict, I wrote in that the ECF is a major trade ally, but has shown no interest towards annexation. Arstarpool 22:14, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think "annexation" is the right word for the Federation. A nation joins the federation as an alliance, but does not become an extension of said federation.  A member state of the League of Nations first either applied or was invited to join, but that does not make the joining a political union.  The same thing occurs with the North American Union and the Dixie Alliance -- Member states are not "annexed." SouthWriter 22:59, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Facist dicatator?
Hey, I'm in my picky mood. I looked up facism -- it's a nationalistic obsesion. How can a small village have a leader who is arrogant and fighting for an organic social order. Are they all hispanic? Or white? And does the village consider its way of life essensial for its corporate identity?

Like I said, I'm in my picky mood. Disregard this if a better word (I have no idea what!) is not forthcoming. :-) SouthWriter 23:14, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Miami Springs, where El Dorado sprouted up from, is a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. Among the thousands of Cubans that live there, there are many who were in fact expelled from Cuba by Castro after the Cuban Revolution. My idea was that one of these ex-Commies would come into power by force....and I never really finished the idea. Arstarpool 23:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Flag
I think I mentioned it somewhere before, but if not -- I don't like the flag. I know the republic has had a rough time of it, but going from a bright, clearly decernable cross with seal, to a dark stripes on a dark background with the seal barely visible against the field, is going too far to the "dark side" for the former "sunshine" state. I understand the blend of stripes with shield, but not the disapperance of the white for the blue (and a darker red, or crimson on top of that). Here is a flag reclaiming some of the white, but keeping the other colors essentially as they are. The yellow fringe is not necessary, but helps contain the white edges. The 13 stripe motif is gone, but the old design obsured them anyway. I thoght about several variations, but placed this one here for your consideration. The seal could be centered on the tri-colors; the bottom white sripe coulbe removed and the other colors broadened; the seal could be centered on the bi-colored (blue & crimson); or the original red could return in place of the crimson.

Just some thoughts. SouthWriter 14:23, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, I like it! I had originally scrapped the background of the flag from a pic of the althist: "Heartland", and did little changes. I will take the design you gave me and the other one that we made and I will try to toy around with it and see what I get. Arstarpool 23:22, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I look forward to what you come up with. Any flag I don't have to change the seal on is easy.  I don't have the right software to write on a curve, so it's better for any writing around the edge of the seal  to stay the same. SouthWriter 02:27, June 8, 2010 (UTC)