Talk:Atlantic Islands

I stole the basic idea from a Google Group soc.history.what-if thread. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.what-if/browse_frm/thread/39ca382a93013185/1153c0580feb791f#1153c0580feb791f

The folks on that group are usually very good but the format is such that ideas pop up and then are never seen again. It seemed to me that the answer to the "What if" depends a lot on exactly where the new islands were located. What the heck; I own a copy of Photoshop and was bored, so I looked at some maps of the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, pushed up some sea mounts and see ridges up in elevation so they became islands and made a new map. AirshipArmada 07:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, not so much butterflies as albatrosses in this case, I think. When exactly did these islands appear *there*? --Sikulu 13:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I happen to be one of the folks on that group (I call myself Analytical Engine on the google groups, if you should ever see me around there.) --Sikulu 13:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The islands drawn are where sea mounts exist in OTL, some of which come very close to the surface. Deep sea currents should be the same as in OTL but surface currents may be altered (at least effected) and so on. This could arguably effect the shape of shore lines and weather. Also fish populations would be effected. Of course, for the islands to exist at all there would need to have been greater volcanic action in areas, which would also spawn butterflies, or albatrosses, of its own. So this timeline can not be accurately mapped (as if any ALT is ever really accurately mapped!) but it still may be fun to explore.
 * To proceed I'll assume that currents, weather, and geography is the same as OTL with the exception of the new Islands themselves.
 * In OTL the Canary Islands didn't effect the course of history until relatively late, and the Azores Islands even later. The islands in this ATL factor in sooner because: the Ampere Islands are well place for early use, and the Greater Azores Islands would be discovered sooner (because they are more numerous and because the Amperes could be used as stepping stones). AirshipArmada 17:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Out of curiousity, when you say "very close to the surface" do you mean to the point that you could easily build a platform on it (such as the one built by the japanese and british during WW2) or "very close" relative to the sea bed ? If the former, could make for another althistory where a nation decide to *build* itself some "oversea colonies" --Marcpasquin 02:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The POD is: long, long ago plate tectonics and other geological forces were a little bit different so some sea mounts were a bit bigger than OTL. In OTL the Ampere Seamont raises 4000 meters but then stops 57 meters below the surface of the ocean. If it was 2% bigger we would have a nice island there. The Mid Atlantic Ridge pokes above sea level in a couple of places, in this ATL it pokes above sea level in a lot more places. I'm not interested in the geology so much as how such islands might have effected human history. AirshipArmada 20:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

When I first saw the POD the naive part of me briefly fantasized about Phoenicians in the New World. With just a moment's reflection, however, I realized that would be well neigh impossible. The mid Atlantic Islands would not be discovered until European ship technology was up to the task. The islands, as I've placed them, are too far south for the Norse to stumble across them. So we have to wait for the Basque. The Basque don't have the boats necessary until about the 12th century. In OTL they may started fishing in Newfoundland by 1372; the new islands might move this up by a century. But the Basque had a discrete culture and language, so information about the islands would not easily leak out to other peoples. Also the Basque didn't seem to be great empire builders, so all we get in this timeline are some fishing settlements which are perhaps temporary.

Serious settlement of the New World is still dependent on the course of events in Europe. Do we still have to wait for the late 15th century Spain for such a surge? Maybe Philip the Fair of France could have sponsored something at the end of the 13th century. Or maybe people fleeing the Black Death or the 100 Years War could have headed across the ocean in mid 14th century. AirshipArmada 20:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Romans
Could the Romans have managed some measure of colonisation? After all, their shipbuilding technology was only reached by Europeans again in the late Middle Ages. --Sikulu 11:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * From what I could glean, Roman rudder and sail technologies weren't really that bad, but their ships nonetheless were not very sea worthy. The Romans also had a short "sailing season" - late May to early September. They are unlikely to colonize the Greater Azores. Prevailing winds and currents in the band of the islands actually goes from west to east. If anyone were to accidentally make it to the islands then they should be able to return to Europe without much trouble. So in ancient times there may have been legends of the existence of the Azores islands but they are too difficult to reach to be of use. AirshipArmada 22:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The Ampere Islands are well placed though. Where are the Madeira Islands *there*. --Sikulu 08:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * And remember: the Romans feared the ocean. They only used their ships for sailing along the coast, so if nothing else, superstition would probably have kept them from going west.
 * And @Sikulu: Only reached again in the late Middle Ages? Not true. Look at the Vikings. --Michael riber 16:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant with hulking-great-big ships. Viking technology was good, but nowhere as advanced as that of the Romans. --Sikulu 10:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it would be more probable that the Carthaginians set up some colonies there. It would be strange to have the Carthies island hopping their way to America. The Roman Empire was mainly focused the east and the greek areas. Iberia was taken to oppose the Carthaginians but I don't think they would have gone any further. - GiantMonkeyMan

Idirisids & Berbers
Don't forget Morroco. Easy access to North America might involve the Berbers and lead to a Muslim North America by the 13th Century.


 * I think the Idrisids were too early to have the technology to reach the Greater Azores but the Ampere Islands would have spent much of their history under muslim rule. Maybe the Almohads (12th & 13th centurey) could sail the Atlantic. Looks like I need to do some more reading : cool. AirshipArmada 21:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * To me, the Berber scenario seems more probable, and would also be more interesting (after all, althists aren't always completely truthful). --202.40.134.252 02:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I like this idea quite a bit... I'm new to the Althistory wiki, but I may be making my first alt soon about a Muslim colonization of North America. Atinoda 22:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Cold war crises, submarines
Lets say the islands are claimed by the following countries in the 20th century

Kelvin, Greater Bermuda, and Corner Islands = USA, 51st state of the Bermuda triangle Greater Azores, Ampere islands= Spain.

They are both NATO members. these islands would be lands of these countries. There exist treaties which ban warsaw pact submarines from approaching 500 miles of a NATO member coastline, (this is to avoid a submarine killing the entire chain of command in Russia or the US and help stop a nuclear holocaust caused by less senior military leaders). these islands look close enough together that the south atlantic would be closed to Soviet Subs, but the north atlantic open to NATO subs. This could impose a sense of superiority in the NATO navies. this could be in part transfered to the NATO leaders. the opposite would be true for the Soviets. this could;

(a)Lead to the breakup of the USSR sooner due to increased pressure of nuclear surprise attack and complete NATO dominance of the atlantic.

(b)Lead to a war over the islands between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

(c)A first strike attack by NATO against Russia, because they believe of their complete dominance of the oceans and the inability of Russia to retaliate.

(d)A Strike by Russia against the US to end once and for all the imperialist arrogance.

I will adopt this
however any editor who wants to stay and edit is more then welcome--Owen1983 16:54, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I have done a few edits to this timeline. I'm not sure that these Islands would have made too much difference to the course of history, but they would have made life easier for the countries of North West Europe. I will do some more thinking and edits. Probus888

I will take this
Since the Owen 1983 drunkyard has been kicked off for months, I will take this project

I am open to any ideas on this article,

If you are intrested in this page then contact me

Alexanders 03:01, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Countries
Okay, so so far this timeline only touches on the archipelagos in the Atlantic but not actually about the countries in those archipelagos, so I decided we have a map of nations. I have created a basemap for the island nations and even oversea territories that countries may have. I would doubt that each country would be composed of one whole archipelago, similar to the Caribbean.

Looking at the timeline, I assume only the Kelvin Islands would remain a territory/state and the other three archipelagos would either become independent or a dependency of another country (like Greater Bermuda might choose to become a territory of the UK again) but these are just suggestions. Since there are sure to be a lot of island nations in the Greater Azores archipelago, I suggest colouring the nations in different colours for detail, and once everyone who wants to contribute is finished with their country, I will make the final detailed map. ChrisL123 00:49, July 2, 2011 (UTC)




 * I don't think we need to rush about drawing country borders. This ATL is so full of possibilities that there will probably be thousands of changes in the posessions, indigenous people coming and going, colonial powers, both ancient and modern... If the POD dates back to our entire history, consider how many people may have found the islands, maybe as early as 2500 years ago or more. I'd rather enjoy the way ("them weird historians"! lol) and create as many plotlines as possible - I'd think onwards, not backwards, if you know what I mean. Parsifal br 23:54, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

What about South Atlantic?
Hmm, very interesting ATL. And yes, first thing that comes to mind is, "Phoenicians in America!", and I don't think it is absurd to consider such a thing. Maybe they did not have the necessary naval technology to cross the seas, maybe they did... but considering that people got to Australia and Southeast Asia many thousand years ago, or to Polynesia for that matter, this is not at all absurd.

Anyway, I believe a few things might be taken into consideration:

1. If indeed some people has sailed across the ocean way before modern European nations, all would change. These nation names seem too OTL-like, considering the aburdly strategical position of these islands. They would probably be the site for countless wars, and could change hands very often. It is even possible that a civilization settled there could subsist way after it was wiped out in its original place. So, if Phoenicians did get there, they would likely be still there after Romans.

2. Even if that did not happen, and the Portuguese or Spanish were the first ones to reach these islands, a whole part of colonialism would be focused in taking control and keeping these islands. They would be considered to be almost like a small continent, and a very valuable one.

3. What about South Atlantic? There are a few undersea mountains that could follow the same rule. Namely, there are a few mountain chains that might be over water: These islands would make colonization very different in scenario 2 because they could be occupied much like Sao Tome island - it was both a production site and an outpost for delivering slaves. In scenario 1, they could be the starting point for some African colonialism.
 * A chain that starts at mid-Brazil coast and goes east until Trindade Island;
 * A chain that surrounds Brazilian coast, from Salvador up north to Sao Luis;
 * A chain that starts at the border of Angola and Namibia and goes southwest until Gough Island - and then it turns southeast and reaches almost as far as Bouvet Island;
 * A smaller chain between Sao Tome and Saint Helen islands;
 * Maybe a small chain by the coast of Sierra Leone.

Anyway, a thriving idea. Parsifal br 18:25, July 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, I don't think anyone's considered the South Atlantic idea. The colonization of the islands, etc. are all dealt with in the timeline page, which is open to editing. The nation names and borders are also open for change. I think all the editors will need to discuss this timeline's history and colonialism so we can determine the modern-day borders. But if it's alright with the other editors, I will start on the South Atlantic Islands map. ChrisL123 18:45, July 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Who's to draw the South Atlantic islands? Anyway, there are a few nice maps around that may help:


 * http://www.keypetroleum.com.au/images/fig-Bathymetry.pdf.
 * http://www.cartografia.org.br/xxi_cbc/046-H02.pdf, last page (text is in Portuguese)
 * http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/c/ce/Atlantic_bathymetry.jpg (this one is great!)
 * There will probably be a relatively large landmass close to southern Brazil and Uruguay, if we consider high tectonic activity to be as old as it takes. It would be a nice thing, actually.


 * One more thing: how far does this "higher volcanic activity" go, worldwise? Is it only in Atlantic Ocean? There are other places where it would be interesting for it to have happened, such as Indian Ocean. Parsifal br 23:13, July 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll draw up the maps if that's alright with everyone. And thank you for the maps! I've been trying to find maps like these but I've been calling them "topographic" instead of "bathymetric." Heh.


 * And I think the timeline will just deal with the higher volcanic activity in the Atlantic Islands, what the original creator AirshipArmada had in mind. It would be interesting though, wouldn't it. ChrisL123 00:05, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

Indigenous Peoples of the (North) Atlantic Islands
There's been so many ideas for "indigenous peoples" living in the Atlantic Islands that I finally decided we need to sort them out. So with information on OTL Atlantic Indigenous peoples in the islands and what people have discussed throughout the timeline I've come up with this list below. If anyone wants to add on to the list, just do it. By the end of the week or so I hope we can finally establish who these people were. The South Atlantic Islands will have to be done later. ChrisL123 03:03, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

(List of people are in order of when they settled on the islands.)










 * (none in OTL)
 * (none in OTL)




 * (none in OTL)
 * (none in OTL)


 * I was thinking that given the number of islands, maybe a new group of indigenous people along the lines of the Polynesians or Taínos might form. Currently none of the listed civilizations could be considered "seafaring" or anything of the sort, except the Phoenicians, Greeks, Norsemen, and Carthaginians, and those came much later, so this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Generally every large archipelago in the world has had some sort of seafaring civilization. But unlike Polynesia, it might actually be the intersection of two such civilizations: the American and the European. Maybe we might see the rise of great native empires as a result? Think Srivijaya. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:27, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

Islands are small
Islands are small: When we plan the civilizations that will settle in the islands, we have to keep this in mind: although they may be numerous, the islands are pretty small and distant. Of course they can be larger than in OTL, since volcanic activity is greater, but they probably will not be large enough to support millions of inhabitants. Most of the islands in OTL are too small to support any inhabitants at all, and this will be so too in this ATL. Most of them even lack sufficient water sources! Take, for instance, these examples:

¹ The State of Rhode Island was placed here only for comparison purposes, since it's the smallest state in USA; and, despite its name, it's not even an island, anyway... :P

So the islands will be more of strategical interest than as centers of civilization. In modern times, they will probably be too small to accomodate entire independent, powerful countries. They will probably be colonies or poor countries. Of course this needs not be the case in ancient times, when colonies were as large as a small town. So, Greeks and Phoenicians could build powerful colonies there; British and French, not quite... Parsifal br 05:38, July 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I see your point, but the fact that colonial powers won't want colonies in the islands as bad as the ancient empires isn't as true as you think. Colonial powers like Spain, Portugal, Britain, France, etc. wanted all they could get. Just take the Caribbean as an example; however insignificant and small the islands were, the colonial powers were fighting over them for years, changing hands until the countries' independence, and almost all of them are independent countries today, however powerful. Most of these islands are bigger than the Caribbean countries so they should have populations in the 100,000s, at least. ChrisL123 06:07, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Very true, but actually I didn't mean to say they wouldn't be interesting for modern colonial powers, only that these islands are too small to hold strong and powerful independent countries. But as for plantation colonies, they are not only interesting, they are probably perfect, if climate conditions help. In fact, these islands would likely remain as colonies for much longer than American countries. They are closer to Europe, and they would certainly change hands very often. This might even lead to very interesting mixes of cultures, since some islands could have had 3 or even 4 owners in its history, and a mix of ancient cultures, European influence and African traditions. Parsifal br 13:07, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing that the sovreign nation of Nova Roma would remain somewhat independant. And given how the Romans were Christians long before Nova Roma was colonized I would guess that the colonial powers of Europe would leave them alone. They might end up being the semi-independant protectorate of one of the nations for a while, but they would become independant in the end.
 * Yank 11:15, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

Climate
Thought I'd jot a few notes down here:


 * The existence of the Atlantic Islands and the undersea mount would weaken the Gulf Stream north of them.
 * The islands would have almost tropical climates due to the Gulf Stream.
 * Northern Europe would have a much colder climate due to the Gulf Stream.
 * The North Atlantic Gyre would be split in half.

I have a map although it probably is not totally accurate, because I don't know much about climate:

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 07:16, July 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about climate myself either, but I've noticed there's a very interesting thing about Gulf Stream: it does cross all major islands in North Atlantic, "bigger islands" and Antilles included. In this map, by the way, we can see that Jamaica is on its way, but the stream is so wide that it is probably no big deal. Jamaica is probably the biggest island on the stream's way. In this other map , we can see that the stream splits in the Antilles, which makes sense, and then rejoins. Between Cuba and Florida the stream is very narrow, but it is probably faster. So the stream probably adapts to the obstacles. But yes, the climate of the bigger islands would most likely be tropical, and they would be wonderful fishing places.


 * An interesting thing to consider is that, since the stream is so powerful, navigation would be somewhat difficult from Amper Islands to Bermuda, but would be easier the opposite way. (At least this logic works in South Atlantic.) This might pose a few difficulties to colonization of the islands, since it would be harder to reach them from Europe. It would require a certain amount of naval technology for a civilization to reach the islands. Some of them might get it, of course, but not every one of them.


 * The easiest way to reach America would be, ironically, from possible bigger islands close to Sierra Leone. This coul make it easy for African colonization, as well as slave trade.


 * I drew a map based on the fist link I included, which shows the bigger islands and the stream:


 * Stream-Isles.png


 * Parsifal br 14:16, July 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I see your point with the current adapting to the islands, but, it is important to note that we are not just talking about a few islands, but rather an entire undersea plateau between Spain and America. The "reef" would definitely absorb some of the current and weaken it, as well as preventing much of it from travelling north. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:29, July 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, we'll have to define how high the plateau really gets. If it's really very high, then you're right, it will probably interfere with the stream to some extent. But in the beginning of this page, Airship Armada wrote:
 * In OTL the Ampere Seamont raises 4000 meters but then stops 57 meters below the surface of the ocean. If it was 2% bigger we would have a nice island there. The Mid Atlantic Ridge pokes above sea level in a couple of places, in this ATL it pokes above sea level in a lot more places. 
 * If we take this as canon (I don't know if it will be), then a 2%-higher mid-Atlantic riff won't be as high as to have a strong influence in the stream (which runs close to surface). I actually believe that having a very high mid-Atlantic riff is a different POD than having more islands than OTL. The effects are also radically different: severing the Gulf Stream versus having stepping stones between two continents. I personally prefer the idea of mountains being slightly higher (maybe 5%), but "God" here is more of a committee... :) Parsifal br 00:43, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

Map Game, anyone?
Alright, since we've established the small details like climate and island Natives, we still have the issue of colonization and the current nation borders (yes, I'm intent on finishing it once and for all.) I suggest that we play a little map game. The editors that wanted to contribute to the Atlantic Islands timeline could choose a colonial empire and colonize their own islands, you know, the usual Map Game thing. I'm still working on the blank map that we'd use but I wanted to bring it up before we actually start it or anything. Is everyone okay with the idea? ChrisL123 05:17, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should start around 1400, because Madeira was colonized soon after, and end around 1800, and then the islands start gaining independence. Also I think the main powers should be: Portugal, Netherlands, England, France. Spain might do the Canaries but they were technically not supposed to because of the Treaty of Tordesillas. Also, the United States would have a small say but in general should leave this to the Europeans. Also they would be more interested in the Americas (TTL when and how did they discover America?). Minor powers might be Denmark, Sweden, Scotland. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:24, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, for me the most interesting possibility, one I'd like to develop, is that there may have been some kind of earlier exploration of the islands, from Americas (Aztecs or others), Africa (Mali Empire) or from Arabs, not to mention ancient exploration. These are all viable conjectures, and they might influence the way colonization is developed there - unless, of course, we consider that modern Europeans would arrive and destroy everything there was there, as they did to many places. Parsifal br 23:10, July 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's possible, but we have to realize that those empires were all land-based and did not usually send major oceangoing expeditions. While it is true many coastal people would have had the technology to explore widely in the ocean, I would call it unlikely the empires would form colonies. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:17, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

It seems like you've done alot of work here, and i wouldn't want to barge in. But i'd love to join this. I'll add my name to the map game list. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:27, July 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is an open timeline, which means anyone can join and contribute, so you won't be barging in. The map will hopefully be finished by Sunday the latest, and when that's done we can begin. ChrisL123 23:54, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

Check your sandbox i posted a comment there, can't wait for sunday! Marcus/Michael Villanova 00:00, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I said I should be done the map in the next hour or so, so when I'm done we can start the game! ChrisL123 20:33, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

Economy
What would be the major sources of income for these nations? Are there any resources present that would make the islands valuable or were they just valued for trading? I would guess that Nova Roma's premier source of income is tourism. After all, who wouldn't want to experience living in a long-extinct culture?

Yank 11:09, July 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, tourism would be a major source of income, especially for Nova Roma. Fishing would also be a good. As discussed above, the ocean currents being cut off by the islands would mean the islands would be most likely tropical. The tropical-ness of the islands could mean tropical fruits, vegetables, etc. could be exported. ChrisL123 17:22, July 8, 2011 (UTC)