Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3
 * Archive 4

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Maps
Land Acquired (post year, then your nation, then what has changed)

Creator: SwankyJ (talk) 21:45, March 31, 2014 (UTC) Deleted by SwankyJ. SwankyJ (talk) 16:12, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

The Mapuche area is no longer colored in. That must be fixed. IhaveSonar (talk) 23:23, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

DO NOT ERASE: hey guys please post in the land acquired system. SwankyJ (talk) 17:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Hey guys. I think that i should have at least some more land. i have expanded for some time. Spartian300 (talk) 12:36, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

The current map deals with everything thus far minus expansion, which I shall be doing ever so carefully for a short while. Kunarian TALK 16:02, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

No spar 100px in one turn as the Mayans is ridiculous. SwankyJ (talk) 17:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Swanky you are not a mod, you are a mapmaker, the expansion is an issue for a mod to solve not you. If they agree with you, great. If not then it's their decision. But it is not your place to make that decision. Kunarian TALK 17:26, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

And neither are you which means you have no right to cross me out, as I didn't cross him out just argue, I will talked to MP an hour ago, and he said it is implausible. I will have him post later that this is not allowed. And for future reference Kun, anything even slightly under discussion or debate is not to be added to the map until it is final. SwankyJ (talk) 17:46, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then say that so that it can be confirmed if challenged. Don't just try and muscle in as if it is on your own authority and don't once again try to act like you're some kind of boss. Seriously or I will simply not include you for the sake of actually getting things done. Kunarian TALK 21:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Two things: I am that guy (talk) 15:58, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) My now-former lands in Bremen were ceded to Hesse, not the UNC.
 * 2) Lippe and Bruchhausen were annexed last turn
 * As far as I can see from the treaty the lands were ceded to UNC, as the treaty of Weimar was reversed. And on Lippe and Bruchhausen, they are annexed. Kunarian TALK 16:02, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Treaty of Weimar is hereby null. Revisions to the Treaty of Weimar will be made, granting the pieces of Bremen that had been purchased by Hamburg to Hesse."

I am that guy (talk) 16:13, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Roger. will fix. Kunarian TALK 17:07, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Paderborn, Munster, Berg, have been annexed into the nation, and Cleves-Mark is a vassal. All my other vassals have been annexed into the nation aswell. I also colonized Bear Island Blocky858 (talk) 17:31, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

There may be controversary, as we mapmakers must check with mods for an official answer to make sure it is safe to put, as Kun and I cannot make those decisions. SwankyJ (talk) 03:32, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Ukraine broke away from Muscovy and into several states: Kiev, Chernigov, Volhynia and the Azovan Khanate. This occured in a mod event in 1457, and the map is now contradicting my post. Also please remove the line seperating Moldavia from Wallachia, Moldavia was annexed in 1421. Stephanus rex (talk) 22:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks SrEX. I'll get on it. SwankyJ (talk) 03:32, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Marrikuwuyanga need to be added to the map controlling the Australian Tiwi islands - and I think some Nivkh expansion has gone unaccounted for - Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:59, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Noted. Thank you Mod Lemming. SwankyJ (talk) 03:32, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey, Guys! I exist! That's Ayutthaya. It's basically where Thailand is. Actually, it basically is Thailand. Color me... umm, in. :D
 * 23:51, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, I have already added you. SwankyJ (talk) 03:32, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Can you give me my brittany and Armagnac please, I haven't been able to log in a Computer to add it on my own. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 13:25, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe you have that right anyway (not trying to send aggressive at all), but yes it was in the old 1460 map, but landmass was messed up and I forgot to move every change/expansion over. You will see it in 1465, I apologize Sine, as Kun and I just figured out a system in which we can support and coexist with one another. SwankyJ (talk) 14:37, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Note to self: Morocco is annexed with the left part of the southern Gibraltar. SwankyJ (talk) 14:45, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Note to self: Colorado needs to be broken up. SwankyJ (talk) 14:45, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Note to self: Ayttuhaya receives small islands on their coast. SwankyJ (talk) 14:45, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Ethiopia is supposed to have all the land that Ms put them at on his WIP map. Also you completely forgot that nation north of Persia. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk)

Also Thuringia is supposed to be independant of Hesse. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk)

Can the Koryak Cnfederacy go one the map? Its borders are as seen here. Krasnoyarsk (talk) 20:37, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Can I exist again? People put me on the map, take me off, put me one- make up your mind, people.

17:59, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Goddamit. The map fixed was fixed for Banu Sulym and now it has been changed again? Could you please fix this? Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:43, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Could the Mughal Empire's color be changed to mughal green? It would be more logical since it's the representative color of the empire Sky Green 24 17:56, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

{{legend|#01411c}}

The Ukraine thing seen in a mod event a while ago is not portrayed on the map. I propose the division is something like that on the attached image, with the Muscovite part being split into three. Fed (talk) 23:48, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Khmer Empire is a vassal of China, Taibei united with Tainan a while back. Sukhotthai is a Ming vassal. Qara Del is annexed into China and the Hosokawa Clan lands are part of Ming China. These are issues that have been stretching back for some two decades... Scandinator (talk) 01:32, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Couple things: I am that guy (talk) 03:45, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Scandinavia's Bremen land hasn't changed from the treaty of Weimar, the Hamburger Bremen lands were given to Hesse.
 * 2) Mecklenburg is in a personal union with Hamburg.
 * 3) Magdeburg is a vassal if Hamburg.

The Mughal Empire lost Jaunpur, Delhi and Bahamani in a war, so they all three should be represented as independent states on the map. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 23:23, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Could the Koryak Confederacy go on the map? Its borders are as shown.

According to Swanky, who apparently can't edit right now, this is the current map for 1465.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:07, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Seriously? I've been around for a while now, and I kind of want to exist on the map. Its possible that my nation was confused with Mangut Nivkhgu, the blue nation on Sakhalin Island. Krasnoyarsk (talk) 00:25, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but that Koryak map is wayy too big. You control far less than that.

Also, once again, Ukrainian collapse was not shown. I proposed a division last map but it was completely ignored. Fed (talk) 00:38, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

That's really too bad, because it makes my last twenty posts ASB as hell. At least someone recognized I exist, though.Krasnoyarsk (talk) 10:39, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Jan Mayen is universally acknowledged to be an Oldenburger possession (it's called Neu Baltrum in-game). As well, Scandinavia agreed in 1468 to sell Oldenburg the Greenlandic island of Ammassalik, on which my whaling post, Dietrichdorf, sits. Callumthered (talk) 05:53, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Land Aquired/Issues for 1470 PLEASE POST PICTURES
Hey! Kedah has been annexed to Ayutthaya over the past 15 years, Padang has gotten 20% of Sri Vijaya and been Vassalized, the rest of Sri Vijaya and Aceh have also been vassalized- could you fix those? Thanks!
 * As part of the Compact of Philadelphi:PMIIIAlexandriaYemenCompactofPhiladelphiLandTransfer.PNG
 * Yemen cedes the land between OTL Wadi Harim to OTL Wadi Mawza to Alexandria, the border with Yemen will be approximately 10 miles off the coast. g greg e   (talk)
 * Yemen cedes OTL Brimin Isle, in middle of OTL Bab el Mandeb Strait to Alexandria. g greg e   (talk)  not on map! all good!! Alexandriaexpansion1470.png
 * ​Alexandria's 200px expansion from 1465 to 1470...as roughly seen on the right. Should encompass the city of Jerusalem and the region of Judea. As my map making and identification skills on the map are not as good as our mapmakers...please adjust my image accordinly...thanks! g greg e   (talk)    done thanks feud!
 * Cuzco will topple the Ayamra government around LAke titicaca (not the entire thing, just the north.), and vassalize them. Cuzco also expanded south into the area between the Ica-Nazca and Chiribaya (i know its mountinus but it's not signifgantly diffrent than the elevation around Cuzco), I will get a picture soon.

00:19, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of errors in Germany. For starters Thuringia is supposed to be independent of Hesse and Saxony is independent of Austria. The nations of Furstenburg, Konstanz, Kempter, Ulm, Eurtemburg, Baden, and Breisgau should be united into one nation and a vassel of Austria. Tr0llis (talk) 02:45, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Here is a map explaining the locations of Oldenburg's two small colonies, Neu Baltrum (otl Jan Mayen) and Neu Borkum (otl   Ammassalik Island). Callumthered (talk) 03:32, April 14, 2014 (UTC)



Ethiopia still needs to be fixed. It expanded to its modern western border I think. Tr0llis (talk) 10:39, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
If you want to update the map, please list the changes you've made in the Notes section, along with your signature; this enables me to update the color key and change log accordingly, preventing confusion for readers. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:58, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

The map is now updated for 1460. TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

All regions are shown according to the plurality religion in the province.

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in gold, and Sedevacantist states are shown in pale yellow. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Reformism is red. Sunni Islam is lime green; Shia Islam is dark green; Ibadiyya Islam is forest green. Hinduism is sky blue, while Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink. Other religions will be added as needed.

Notes

Issues and Discussion
 * The Koryak Confederacy is Shinto. Krasnoyarsk (talk) 20:38, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Added. TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Chatagai split has been resolved by painting each section the religion of its "owner." TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aragon is now Western Church, as is its colonies. Aragon's Italian and French regions are still Catholic. TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Safavid Persia is now Shia. TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Kongolese kingdom is now Catholic. Since it's Castilian-influenced, I'll probably switch it to Western Church in the next update. TankOfMidgets (talk) 05:17, April 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be honest France is only nominally catholic,i've essentially started to make france religion shift from Rome to itself hence in my previous map it was in dark yellow shade, (While britain was in red shade as their canterbury papacy was essentially another religion) Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)
 * i noticed a small issue with the cultural map flanders is flemish which is a romanized sub division of Dutch culture. only the wallon parts are french. With Blood and Iron (talk) 19:53, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wanted to thank Tom for his work on this important area. I would also like to remind people of the page: Religion (Principia Moderni III Map Game), and ask them to edit their own religious sects. By keeping this page up to date, we can make religious maps more easily. 08:21, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

=General Discussion=

Safavid Empire (Attacker)
Total: 75
 * Location: Close to location (+4)= +4
 * Tactical Advantage: High Ground (+2), Siege weapons (+5)= +7
 * Nations: = Safavid Empire (L+5) Mughal Empire (M+3) Southern Chatagai Khandate (M+3)= +11
 * Military Development: Safavids (+6), Mughals (+4), SCK (+4)= 0
 * Economic Development: Safavids (+8), Mughals (+2), SCK (+4)= +14
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: Safavid (Attacking to enforce Political Hegemony +7) Mughals (Aiding an Ally +3) = 10
 * Modifiers: Non Democratic Government Supported by People (+4) Troop Morale High (+5)= +9
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 1065
 * UTC: 20:17 (21*17) = 357
 * Total: 1065/357*pi (3.14159265359) = 9.36722689075
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: Safavids (-1), Mughals (-1), SCK (-1)= -3
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Mansurryia Caliphate (Defender)
Total: 105
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: (City walls +4)= +4
 * Nations: Mansurryia Caliphate (L+5), Yemen (M+3), Assyria (+3), Armenia (+3), Ottoman Empire (+3)= +17
 * Military Development: Mansuriyya Caliphate (+8), Yemen (+0), Armenia (+6), Assyria (+6), Ottoman Empire (+8)= +28/14=2
 * Economic Development: Mansuriyya Caliphate (+2) Yemen (+0), Armenia (+6), Assyria (+6), Ottoman Empire (+8)= +22
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: Defending Core/ Heartland from possibly fatal attack (+9), Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed (+7) Defending territory not owned by nation more than 20 years (+4), Economy (Assyria+Armenia) (+6), Aiding an ally (+3)= +29
 * Modifiers: Non-Democratic government supported by people (+4)= +4
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 9899
 * UTC: 20:17 (21*17)= 357
 * Total: 9899/357*pi (3.14159265359) =87.0668347
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: Ottomans (-1)
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
Discussion Fix it if I did something wrong. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 22:44, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

you did, you were only alive 5 turns, yet you somehow pgraded 7 different things, you can only upgrade once a turn.

Added Yemen, and a few others may join in. TBD. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 00:30, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

How can it be a possibly fatal attack, it's not even near a possibly fatal attack. Sky Green 24 19:25, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

At this point Pita gets 18%.--Yank 23:28, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

And I remind you again, it shouldn't be defending core from possibly fatal attack, it shouldn't have ever been. Also, the Mughal Empire sent siege weaponry in 1466 so that would be a +5 aye? Sky Green 24 16:23, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

The Ottomans are sending military aid to the Mansuriyya. ChrisL123 (talk) 20:05, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Sky: When the Safavids invaded Mesopotamia in 1508, they sacked Baghdad and took it over for themselves. I think that qualifies as a fatal attack. Also added +5 for siege weaponry. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 20:52, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Mansuriyya and Co. takes 22.47% of Persian territory. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 20:56, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Vassalization reminders
Reminder

When it comes to major religions like Christianity or Islam, the main way to vassalize those states if your the opposite or different religion is more leaning towards war unless there are certain conditions. This applies to everyone so in all honesty do not vassalize those areas. Im looking at you Hungary

I made a new section at the bottom of this page for the mod event. Now, I would like to know how focusing on trading in the vassal would lead to muslim resentment. The high amounts of trading does bring christianity and helps it expand very quickly - but I do not see how trading can be something which the opposng religion tries to target as it would lead to many of them going hungry and stuff. Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:08, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Padang (Attacker, ish)

 * Location: 20 (Ayutthaya: 20, Padang: 20, Kedah (LV))
 * Tactical Adv: 5 (siege equipment)
 * Nations: Padang (LV), Kedah (LV), Ayutthaya (L): 11/5 => 2
 * Mil Dev: 10 =>10
 * Padang: 1 turn: 2
 * Kedah: 1 turn:2
 * Ayutthaya: 3 turns: 6
 * Econ: 25/0 => 25
 * Padang: 1 turn: 2
 * Kedah: 1 turn: 2
 * Ayutthaya: 3 turns: 6
 * Larger Trade Empire: 5
 * Much larger economy: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Padang: 7 (Political Hegemony)
 * Kedah: 3 (Aiding an ally)
 * Ayutthaya: 3 (Aiding an ally)
 * Modifiers: 9
 * High Morale: +5
 * Non-Dem Support: +4
 * Chance: 6
 * Edits: 7424
 * UTC time: 10:44 = 440
 * (7424/440)*3.141596 = 53.0672925091
 * Nation Age: +5
 * All Nations are Mature
 * Population: 29
 * Combined Population: 9 digits (8 mil from Ayutthaya, 1 mil each from the other two)
 * Over 10x Opponent Population: 20
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Number of Troops: 70,000/10,000 => 7
 * Result: 134

Sri Vijaya

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Adv: 0
 * Nations: Sri Vijaya (L): 5 => 0
 * Mil Dev: 0
 * Econ: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 9 (defending from potentially fatal attack)
 * Modfiers: -5 (Low Morale)
 * Infra: 14
 * Chance:  7 (see above)
 * Nation Age: -15 (REALLY, REALLY, REALLY OLD!)
 * Population: 6
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Troops: 10,000/70,000 => 0
 * Result: 56

Result
(134/(134+56))*2-1 = 41.05%

(41.05)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 34.08%

The Allies can take 34.08% of SV, 20% to go to Padang, and the rest to be made a vassal of Ayutthaya.

Koryak-Tlingit War
Koryak Confederacy

Tlingit
 * Location: far from the location of the war: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege Equipment: 5
 * Nations Per Side on the War: 4 (Koryaks)
 * Military Development: +1 (8/6)
 * Economic: +14 (7 yrs)
 * Expansion: -2
 * Motive: Total: +11 +7 (hegemony) +4 (non Dem supported)
 * Chance: Chance:7
 * Edit count=85
 * 1*1*1*2=2
 * 85/2*pi=
 * NPC Bonus: N/A
 * Special NPC Bonus nations :N/A
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population:+2:
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 15,000 / 7000 =2.14 = +2
 * Total: 67


 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: High ground/Ambush 2
 * Nations per side: Haida :+5 (L) +5/1 = 5
 * Military Development: 4/2 = +0
 * Economy: +12 (6 yrs)
 * Infrastructure: 6/2 = 3
 * Expansion: -0 (no expansion)
 * Motive: Defending heartland from non fatal attack +5
 * Chance: +6
 * Edit count=
 * 1*1*1*2=2
 * 85/2*pi=
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -0
 * Troops strength: 7000/15,000 = 0
 * Total: 48
 * ===Result ===
 * ((67/(48+67))x2)-1
 * =(0.165217)x(1-1/(2 x 2))
 * Koryaks can take 12.39% if war lasts 2 years.
 * Baranof and Chichagof islands is approx. 12%.
 *              Discussion
 * If I messed up on this, please tell me and feel free to fix it, because I'v enever done this before.
 * If I messed up on this, please tell me and feel free to fix it, because I'v enever done this before.

WTF?
Could it be explained to me why the Italian portion has christians and the Hungarian portion doesn't? Could it also be pointed out to me where Aragon took land from Banu Sulaym? Because right now this seems to be crossing a limit. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:58, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

It was done, you vassalizing them in the first place was barely doable, they were a disorganized state and are Muslim. Also Italy controls much less than you do hence has less muslims. The area you control as well is larger and has more than likely more muslims than the Italian/Former aragonian area had. This also isnt just you so calm down. Most people are agreeing that your random vassalization of vastly differently cultured, or different religions is highly implausible and outright ridiculous Stay in your locale Imp

Just to say, it is quite ridiculous that the Hungarian area has trouble while the Italian area doesn't. Although Hungary could easily just decimate the population and kill all the Muslims, which is exactly what Castile and to some extent Venice have done in Morocco. Kunarian TALK 19:17, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Kun. And I could say the same for Castile. Just because you were there for 30 years doesn't fix it either. And because it is on the coast and not all that big, I could do exactly what Kun said - yet I was being nice to them and focusing on trading. They want to rebel and screw their economy up - fine with me, I can kill em all and reopen trading by transporting peseants or Serbians (whichever one is the cheapest option). And it is not implausible - Hungary is transforming, and is extending its reaches - plus I am pretty sure if Banu Sulym isn't my locale - then what the hell is Castille doing in Alexandria? Banu is directly south of me - and a good trading region for my goods. Not so random now, eh? :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:24, April 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * And don't give me that naval superiority bullshit. You may have a good navy - but so do other powers. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:25, April 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes it is random... It is not directly south, its a good ways south. Whereas in my case Morocco is literally in my backyard. You can Swim across the straights of Gibraltar and get into morocco. As it stands as for my involvement in alexandria im not vassalizing the area and all i did was send aid to them. Outside of Cyprus which was given to me following a minor war im next to non existant in that area. So no as much as i would love to move on the holy land with my massive navy and army i cant cause its not really doable. Same difference with Hungary which according to multiple people is not in the best situation to have an african vassal especially the Berbers who you havent been fighting for nigh on 200 years like all the spanish kingdoms have. The Castilians gained their different religious vassal through war previously and as of right now neither of those areas are led by muslims any more and in the case of Morocco they are still being chrisitianized into the minority. -Feud


 * I don't need to fight anyone - the Berbers and Arabs do not get along. All I need to do is support one side over the other in whatever situation which is going on. My situation is perfectly fine - you see Sicily has Hungary friendly ports, and the numerous local ports of Banu Sulaym help my ships stay in the region and solve any problems occuring. As long as my conversion is peaceful and through trading - most of the local citizens will not have a problem until it is too late. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:01, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Thing is imp that there's a Christian invader of their lands. At this moment they wouldn't give a shit about Arabs. And you own the mostly desertic are which even harder to keep and the region with a bigger Muslim presence. And to be honest the only reason Granada is christian is due to their uprisings. And morocco like feud has said is far from being fully christian Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 18:20, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Screw this, I'm going to war. Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:22, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Duplicate and minor map changes
When the current map has been slightly altered - reupload it onto the old map, rather than making a new map. Where this reupload button is found is shown in the following picture. Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:25, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Result
No one going to do this? Spartian300 (talk) 15:08, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Bad idea...

I dont think you should follow through with this. Im not a mod but if you give me the numbers I will plug them in for you. Also you should have used the cod for the algo. Also Sine you should sign your name.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 18:56, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

I agree Spar, you have seen how the mods are treating Soconusco at the moment, there is a reason I didnt take military action, even if I won i'd be crippled by the mods once again. They are organized and have bonuses to their state now, wait later, and I will attack with you, and we can split it, you can have Soconusco and i'll take Atlocuapo. SwankyJ (talk) 23:33, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Okay Spartian300 (talk) 09:40, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Attacker (Kingdom of Georgia)
Total: 40
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 + 5 = 7 (High Ground, Siege Equipment)
 * Nations: Georgia (L), Rani (MV), Amier-Kavkasia (MV) = 7/5 = 1.4 ~= 1
 * Military: 8/3 = 2.667 ~= 3
 * Economy: (6 + 5)/3 = 11/3 = 3.667 ~= 4 (larger economy; multiple currencies, gold reserves, trade vs. isolated Azeris)
 * Infrastructure: 0 (attacking)
 * Expansion: 0 (no recent expansion)
 * Motive: 2 (economic, non-dem government supported by people, low troop morale b/c chance = 0)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count=220
 * UTC: 17:54; 1*7*5*4=140
 * 220/140*pi=0.5 0 0
 * Nation Age: 0 (maturing nation - 1413)
 * Population: 9 (1,663,000 = 7 digits; superiority +2)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Troop Strength: 20000/22500 = 0.889 ~= 1

Defender (Sultanate of Azerbaijan)

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (plains)
 * Nations: Azerbaijan (L) = 5/7 = 0.714 ~= 1
 * Military: 3/8 = 0.375 ~= 0
 * Economy: (3 - 2)/6 =1/6 = 0.166 = 0 (smaller economy)
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0 (no recent expansion)
 * Motive: 0 (defending heartland from non-fatal attack; troop morale low)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count=220
 * UTC: 17:54; 1*7*5*4=140
 * 220/140*pi=0.5 0 0
 * Nation Age: 0 (maturing nation - 1415)
 * Population: 7 (1,129,000 = 7 digits)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Troop Strength: 22,500/20,000 = 1.125 ~= 1
 * Total: 27

Results
(2*(40/(40+27)))-1 = (2*(40/67))-1 = (2*0.597)-1 = 1.194 - 1 = 0.194 = 19.40%

(19.40%) * (1 - 1/(2 * 3)) = 19.40% * (1 - (1/6)) = 19.40% * (5/6) = 16.16%

Georgia should win the war, and can take up to 19.40% of Azerbaijan. Assuming the war lasts 3 years, Georgia will gain 16.16% of Azerbaijan's territory.

Discussion
I think I've done the algorithm correctly, but I could use a mod to check it over and make sure that I'm following the new format properly. TankOfMidgets (talk) 20:33, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Georgia proposes the following cession of lands by Azerbaijan to the Principality of Rani in exchange for peace. (I've run the numbers; the dark-orange area would be the land I take, which is 16.16% of Azerbaijan's territory.) TankOfMidgets (talk) 20:44, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Safavid-Mansuriyya Peace Treaty
Some concessions I want from the Persians:


 * No tariffs or restrictions on Caliphate exports into Persia for the next 25 years. No guarentee on Caliphate tariffs.
 * A small strip of land on Persia’s southern coast.
 * Withdrawal of Persia from Mesopotamia.
 * No expansion into Mesopotamia.

PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 21:50, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Persia accepts this offer for peace Toby (talk) 21:52, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The Caliphate wishes for only the best of relations between our nations in the futuer. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 21:54, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Moderator Actions
Not trying to point fingers. But if you see something implausible point it out at that time. You cannot simply wait 20 years (days) later while the player continues to do turns off that, and then come out and say it is implausible because it screws up a whole chain reaction of turns. SwankyJ (talk) 23:31, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Mods, unless you're a Mapmaker, don't post over the map. I have given MP permission as my parents currently have me on lock down for getting a C in english. I will be making maps soon, hopefully. My responsibilities go to Kun and MP  for now. SwankyJ (talk) 23:31, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

As it stands im trying the best i can, i can only catch so much, if some other moderators would be a bit more proactive this could be avoided much easier

I agree SwankyJ (talk) 01:50, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Resigning
I am resigning as mapmaker, and considering to resign from this game altogether, as all people do is ignore what I say, and my new ideas. Yet I have had to continue to argue with so many. It is nothing but stress. SwankyJ (talk) 16:16, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Personal Responsibility
Okay, guys, I've noticed a giant trend for a while and I think it's time that I spoke up. A lot of players constantly complain about various mod events or arguments about plausibility. They give mods (who are here to keep the game plausible) crap and throw tantrums like bratty children. I think it's time we grow up just a little, don't you?

Guys, if mods are telling you something's wrong, 9 times out of 10, they know what they're talking about. Try listening to them and think critically about your nation and its actions rather than argue about everything they say. If you ACTUALLY think a mod is wrong, ask the others. We WANT to help you or we wouldn't have joined the force. Keep the game plausible. Listen to constructive criticism and your nation will be the best it can be. Don't make the game a chore.

Bananananananana BAT-CRIM 16:38, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

Hungary
Result: 75
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (Got my Seige equipment ready)
 * Strength: Hungary (L), Poland (MS), Croatia (MS): 15/3 = 5
 * Military: 20/10: +2
 * Economy: +10 +15 (Much larger economy, Larger Trading Empire): 25/10 = +3
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +6 +4 +5: +15
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit count: 10,127
 * UTC Time: 01:05 = 5
 * (10,127/5) * pi = 6362.98176
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 27
 * Participation: 10
 * Number of troops: 60,000/25,000 = 2 (means nothing in the end really)

Banu Sulaym
Result: 42 x1.5 Popular revolt Bonus = 63
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Banu rebels (L): 5/1 = 5
 * Military: 10/20 = 0
 * Economy: 8/25=0 (smaller economy)
 * Infrastructure: 10
 * Expansion: 0 (Govt change so I don't think it counts)
 * Motive: +5 (Premptive strike)
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6 (no more than 500k)
 * Participation: 10
 * Number of troops: 25,000 (note not all of these are regulars its a popular revolt so their numbers can still swell to larger numbers than normal)

Result
((75/(75+63))*2) - 1 = 0.0869565

Hungarian victory. Hungary wins/retains: 8.6%, depending on how long the war lasts.

Discussion
Multiple things were wrong that have been corrected, Chance and troops needs to be done for either side but for the most part its done. Also you forgot a popular revolt bonus.

10%? That is impossible - even for a popular rebellion. Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:22, April 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * 5% is better. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 01:26, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

To me, the most plausible result is probably like OTL Vietnam War, Soviet-Afghan War, or the American Revolutionary War. The insurgents/natives will continue fighting for their independence in a war of attrition, something that the Hungarians will eventually find impossible to fully defeat.

In most cases of this kind of warfare, the war will grind on until it eventually becomes an economic drain on the Hungarians. At some point, the Hungarian people will get fed up with a war in which no progress is being made and would be forced to withdraw.

I am just thinking of it from their perspective, and do not deny that Imp gets 8% in the algo. I am just pondering plausibility and wondering how this would end up - I doubt "nationalistic" forces would let a bit undera tenth of their land remain under Hungarian rule. 03:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo (Attacker)
Total: 62
 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Nations: Oyo (L) = +5
 * Military Development: 20/6 = +3
 * Economic Development: 20/6 = +3
 * Economic Bonus = +5 (?)
 * Expansion: -1 (?)
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +3 +7 +5
 * Chance: +4
 * Edit count: 4,916
 * UTC: 0*5*4*5 = 100
 * Total: 4916/100*pi = 154.4406948504844
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7 (9,415,548)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 225,000/100,000 = +2.25 = +2
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Mali (Defender)
Total: 48
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Mali (L) = +5
 * Military Development: 6/20 = 0
 * Economic Development: 6/20 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Motive: +9 +4
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +10 (20,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 100,000/225,000 = +0.4 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((62/(48+62))*2)-1 = 0.1272727272727273
 * (12.7)*(1-1/(2*9)) = 11.9944444444444444

The war with Mali will last nine years, after which Oyo may claim 11.9% of Mali's territory.

Discussion
Wrong algo is wrong... A few things: I fixed a few of these issues, notably the ones in italics.
 * How can you field an army twice as large as the Malian Army in an invading war when the Malians have a population twice as large as you?
 * Their motive would be 10 (defending from war that will overthrow culture, etc) with non-democratic support of 4.
 * Furthermore, care to explain your motive? Is it aiding kinsmen or hegemony, in which case you never had any hegemony to enforce.
 * You messed up on economic/infrastructure/military development.
 * Assuming you posted all of the past 10 turns, you would have total of 20 points to spend in total, or about 10 in each category.
 * For Mali's development, they should have 4 infrastructure points, 6 econ and 6 mil points.
 * Do you really have a large economy? They have 2x as many people as you, which alone should give them a substantially larger economy. Of course, various development has taken place in your nation, but we cannot assume that Mali has also been stagnant. European trade with Mali would have helped it as much (if not a bit less) as it would help you.

04:08, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Rex, I don't have time for your nonsense, yet again. Seriously, don't you have anything better to do than follow me around and bug me about my actions? And stop editing my algo. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 06:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I want fair algorithims. And a state taking over a state of 2x as many people and a presumably equivalent economy is just implausible. You made a number of mistakes, and if you must be rude to me about it, I shall bring it up to the moderator staff, who I was helping out. 06:55, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Im inclined to agree with the changes, and i think troops would be relatively equal in this situation since mali has 20,000,000 and France has that same number and is plausibly fieldng 100,000 troops tops. Regardless results i believe need to be redone, and considering they are over double your population.. that will definitely pose issues later no offence. As it stands, more unlikely things have happened but that kind of society never lasts too long anyways

Not Milanese, for a second I thought Oyo was fighting Milan! Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I must disagree for these reasons. Even during the civil war, Mali wasn't able to field more than 100,000 men because of its vast size, lack of readily available resources, and the fact that it didn't fight wars often as it was protected by the desert on one side, and the jungles on the other. Attrition isn't factor as the Mali people have nowhere to go and only one way out: the desert. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:00, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Malians never fielded more than 100,000 men OTL, and their in the middle of a civil war, also OTL.
 * I stated that my reason for invading is to enforce regional hegemony, not to conquer the country. So they don't get +10.
 * Read the above.
 * I posted on every turn, and I'm aware of the rules. They get don't get infrastructure since their an NPC.
 * Oyo is smaller, but it trades with Europe and the surrounding region, while Mali's double pop is dying from famine and a civil war. Bigger nations don't mean bigger economies. China had four times the American population yet their nominal GDP is half that of the United States.

We established over chat that Mali is not in a civil war (for those who do not chat as often as others). Furthermore, we discussed the differences time and industrialization have made in warfare, refuting most of Viva's claims. And yes, NPC get infrastructure. You are mistaken. 00:13, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

We could sit here and debate into eternity, but at the end of the day, arguing will never work. I could throw sources at you all evening, but it'll never sink. I stated that I was going to be a better person, and I'm sticking to that. So congratulations Rex, you won. I mean, what was I thinking? It's not like I was ever going to win or do anything of worth in this game. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:46, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Last time I checked, I am not Mali and I am not being invaded by you, Viva. Therefore, how could I have won? And its not like I have any reason to take interest in Mali but I merely want a legitimate game. I do not appreciate you calling me out because I care about making sure algorithims are proper. Please refrain from rude comments like the one you just made, or just do not direct them at me passive-aggressively. Thanks, 05:45, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Oh my. I didn't know that saying you won was an insult. Seems like someone has a soft skin. Well when you make it a habit of basically following me around in games, on talk pages, and in chat, plus PMing about it and using terms such as "Vivempires" that you know very well would anger me deeply, and bother the mess out of me because you don't like something, don't expect anything else. That's typically the price paid for bothering someone like that. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:53, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

The term vivempire is pretty well acknowledged to be a "slang" term in the Principia Moderni community. Anyone who looks at this map will understand just what we are talking about when we say Vivempire. 22:32, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

And anyone who looks at that map will see my empire is far from being the largest nation on the map. Imp practically has a lands on every single continent, Collie controls half of South America, Crimson basically rules a third of Asia, and Scan rules a mega-empire which in pieces can win wars on their own. And this says nothing of Scraw controlling half of North America and Cal/Andrew ruling most of Western Europe. But no. I control a chunk of Africa, something I was repeatedly too to focus on since "Viva has land to expand on in Africa, why does he need colonies," was the most common response. And as such, the implausible empire name isn't named after Imp, Scan, Crim, Scraw, Cal, or Andre, but after me. Yeah, because that clearly makes sense. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:35, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

So far as I know (and I could easily be wrong), Mali was fighting a guerilla war in the north and against the Songhai in the east at the time, so I doubt they would be able to field a very large army (100,000 men?) against another attack from the south. Krasnoyarsk (talk) 19:41, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Cuzco(Attacker)
Total: 70
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Cuzco (L) Wanka (MV) = 6
 * Military Development: 12
 * Economic Development: 18+5+3+1=27
 * Expansion: -1
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 3+7=10 (Modifers) 10+4+5=19
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count: 275
 * UTC: 21:19 = 18
 * Total: 275/18*pi (3.14159265359) = 47.972
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 2,500/1000= 3
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1

Aymara (Defender)
Total: 43
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations:Aymara (L) = 5
 * Military Development: 4
 * Economic Development: 5-2=3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive: 7+4+4=15 (modifers included)
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +2
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 1000/2,500=0.1
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
Cuzco will take 21% of Aymara's land. The Northern Aymara government collapses after the two wars with Cuzco.
 * ((70/(43+70))*2)-1 = 0.23
 * (0.23)*(1-1/(2*6)) = 21%

Discussion
If I understand things properly here, this applies only to the Norhtern most areas of the Aymaras, the part the centrilized. Not the enitre thing.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 21:18, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

So the first time i didnt round for the number of troops thing, b.ut because i rounded in the decimal place for the maximum precent, it made no diffrence in the end. Today is the day of Reckoning sir, You screwed up... '' You screwed up... '' 00:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

France

 * Location: close the location of the war +3
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege equipment +5
 * Nation Per Side: France (L), Burgundy (MV), Sardinia (MV)= 7/5 = 1
 * Military development: +20/7 = 2.85 =+3
 * Economic: +20/7 = 2.85 = +3
 * Motive: Attacking to enforce political Hegemony +11 (Non demo,supported by people)
 * Chance:7
 * Edit count 2408
 * 2408/18: 133,77
 * 133,77*pi :420,2752
 * Nation age:+5
 * Population:+28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 200.000/ 50.000 = 4
 * Total: 80

Tunisia

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +3 Fortifications?
 * Nation Per Side: Tunisia (L) = 5/13 = 0
 * Military development: +7/20 = 0
 * Economic: +7/20 = 0
 * Infrastructure +6
 * Motive: Defending Heartland from attack that will not cripple/ destroy nation +5
 * Chance:5
 * Nation age:+0
 * Population :+6
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 50.000/200.000 = 0
 * Total:40

Discussion

 * Anything to say? Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)
 * France annexes the entirety of tunis (doubling the score of your enemy = 33%) Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

Algo changes from non mods
Thanks, Sine, I appreciate it. But, anyway, in your algo you need to change your econ/mil development scores. I know that you used the example algo made by Feud, but that is actually wrong. The rules are quite specific about a turn --
 * This is for you rex... Lol Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

"Each nation has one turn during which it may do one of the following actions. With that in mind, you can only do mil or econ, and not both. So, you'd have a 10 in mil dev and a 10 in econ dev.
 * Work on the nation's military
 * Work on the nation's economy
 * Work on the nation's infrastructure
 * Expand the nation
 * Start or remain in a conflict."

Other than that, I do not see any problems. 06:15, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Welp, I have further scrutinized the algo and have noticed another couple minor flaws. Again, minor.

The first is that Sine forgot that we are doing 10 year - not 15 year - periods. So, Tunisia should have 4 infra, 6 (for 3 years) econ, and 6 (again, for 3 years) mil. This is pretty much a wash, but still should be corrected.

The second issue is that Sine forgot to add the economic bonuses. He has a much larger economy (+10) and is a larger colonial/trade power (+5).

Thanks, 06:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

As i stressed to you before hand the rules need to be changed and i reaffirmed with Sine that 20 years is essentially the upper limit allowing for 20 and 20 in two categories or 14 14 and 12 for any variation of the categories. This needs to be fixed but as the man that wrote the algo... i am correct. The other area regarding 10 years needs to be changed. Also if your not a mod DO NOT edit the algos of a war that does not concern you. Its annoying and uneeded. Leave it up to Mods to handle and bring it up to them to fix.

Centrlized Aymara State southern border
So a long, long time ago, a mod told me that the Ayamras in the north had centrilzed around lake titicaca. The southern border of this was never expalined or mentioned. Any mod (the one who did it is unknown to me) want to help me out here. Other wise Im going to wing it for the Land Aqired section. "Today is the day of Reckoning sir, You screwed up... '' You screwed up..." '' 19:39, April 14, 2014 (UTC)