Talk:Commonwealth of Kentucky (1983: Doomsday)

Go Cats :)--BrianD 00:52, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Fort Knox Problem
Makes sense that the soviets wouldn't attack Fort Knox. I mean, what is the point of gold when no one is alive to spend it? Fortunately this is not the case. --Yankovic270 20:00, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yes that was my theory behind it as well. If you have any comments, questions or anything you'd like to see added please let me know and I'll figure a way to put it--GOPZACK 20:15, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

From Wikipedia page on Mitch McConnell: "From 1978 until his election to the Senate, he was the Jefferson County Judge/Executive, the top political office in Jefferson County, which includes Louisville." So it doesn't look like McConnell survived. I'm having a hard time finding a suitable replacement for McConnell; perhaps the mayor of Elizabethtown can serve as your president?--BrianD 21:38, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

McConnell was just a fill in until I verified if he was alive or not I will find a permeant one soon --GOPZACK 23:22, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Just saw your map. Looks like they have the gold and the military, and all the bourbon (Bardstown) they can stand :) You would have final say, but on the sports by country article I wrote up basketball and horse racing as the main sports; Ellis Park is in Henderson, on the west side of Owensboro, across from Evansville. If Evansville didn't get hit (or hit by a small bomb), Ellis Park may be salvagable for the resumption of the horse racing industry. --BrianD 00:40, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Thats a great idea I support that! Thank you for writing that section. I think football could also be somewhat popular as well don't you think?--GOPZACK 00:53, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * In 1983, college basketball was THE sport in Kentucky. Most people were die-hard UK fans. Horse racing had a following too, as did football and baseball (especially the Reds). Basically, any sport known and popular in America on Doomsday would probably be remembered in Kentucky, too.--BrianD 01:06, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah t'was my reckoning as well. Basket ball should be THE sport I just wanted to insure that other American sports were listed. Feel free to add that section in anytime--GOPZACK 01:01, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, that Fort Knox offers so many sports. I take it the high school association (KHSAA in OTL) is back up and running? Also, it might be worth your while to look at http://radiostationworld.com/default.asp and research the stations in the E'Town area. I would use at least the frequencies of OTL stations, if not the actual call letters.--BrianD 00:12, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Hey, great article, but there's a slight problem concerning Fort Knox. Here are the Soviet's missile targets from 1980 to the end of the Cold War:

KENTUCKY Primary: none Secondary: Fort Campell (Christian), Fort Knox (Harkin), Louisville, Richmond. Tertiary: Covinton (Cincinnati, OH.), Henderson (Evansville IN.), Owensboro, Paducah. Source: F.E.M.A. Archives; Library of Congress.

So you'll notice that Fort Knox is a secondary target, meaning it was probably the target of two to three misses. That kinda throws a wrench into that operation there :P. I suppose you could say that they missed, but with two missiles, that's unlikely. Thanks -Englishmanjacob 20:29, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

We were well aware of the Fema target lists on all 50 states when this article and others were written. This article in particular has been CANON (I.E a part of this timeline) for almost a year now. We've generally reached the consensus that not every target on the FEMA list was hit. I'd say about 90% or more of the Primary targets were hit, about 50-60% for the secondary and maybe 30-40 of the tertiary targets were hit.

We discussed whether or not Fort Knox was hit and determined that if there had been a "Second Strike" thats when Fort Knox would be hit but due to the sudden nature of Doomsday For Knox dodged a strike.

On that list above Louisville was hit as was Richmond (but with a non-nuclear ballistic missile). Covinton was destroyed as well during the attack on Cincinnati. --GOPZACK 20:46, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your input

If Richmond was hit by a non-nuclear missile, the monuments on the list could have easily been rebuilt as the Virginians gain control of the area.

Yankovic270 21:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Is this Richmond, Virginia we are talking about?HAD 21:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yank, Richmond Virginia would have been nuked. State capital. Home of one of the 12 Federal Reserve banks in the United States. BrianD 21:43, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Zack was referring above to Richmond, Kentucky, a town outside Lexington that is also the location of the Blue Grass Army Depot. BrianD 21:44, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying Brian, I was referencing to Richmond, Kentucky indeed. --GOPZACK 22:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Education
If Evansville has survived in this timeline, then that will have a major affect on your country beyond higher education; it has about 350,000 people in the area now in OTL. Even if you decide not to use Evansville, keep in mind that Owensboro has two colleges of its own - Kentucky Wesleyan and Brescia, as well as an extension of Western Kentucky University.--BrianD 22:18, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of this section could use a little rewriting, to reflect the 1983: Doomsday timeline more than OTL.--BrianD 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed sir --GOPZACK 19:14, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

All that gold!
Okay, now you have a "Secretary of Bullion." What do you do with all that gold? Unless the Commonwealth feels it has a moral obligation to the former US to just guard the stuff, it seems to me that Kentucky can trade with any nation in the world for whatever they need to become a first-rate nation.SouthWriter 17:05, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Can Kentucky trade with any nation? they seem to be landlocked, and I didn't see anything about foreign relations outside of the former Eastern US. there are a few nations they could trade with, but if they open the vaults they're mostly going to flood the gold market. If they have a reliable link with the ocean, then they could get some benefit out of it,(and still flood the gold market). They could feel an obligation to devote the Bullion to building up the entire former US, but that could lead to political complications.
 * The gold part always bothered me. Gold would be useless to the people of Kentucky after Doomsday. With your nation destroyed after a nuclear war, are you really going to give up the limited supply of clean water, food and medicine because someone offers to trade it for a gold bar? Mitro 18:43, February 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, after deciding that it was strong enough to start expanding into surrounding "unclaimed" territory -- and establishing contact with neighboring nations (Virginia and Superior, for instance) -- it seems feasable that trading could begin into the markets in at least those nations. Though landlocked, Kentucky has access to the Mississippi River, giving it a pathway to Superior to the north and Lousianna to the south (to name just the canonical nation-states). With the help of Louisiana, Kentucky would certainly clear the debris in the delta to open the travel to the Gulf of Mexico. The Ohio River, the northern border of pre-1983 Kentucky, reaches north all the way into southern New York via its principle tributary, the Allegheny River. A little ways up the Mississippi, the Missouri River flow down from the heart of the territory of the "Provisional United States of America" (part of the North American Union). After tweny years, one would hope that this bastion of America would head down river to see what was beyond their bombed out borders. It being upriver, the contact would probably ben from the PUSA and not from Kentucky (at least not until a good source of fuel was developed.


 * On the point of "trade" for basic materials with gold, this certainly would not be the case. However, once an established, healthy state has been established, a controlled introduction of gold to the markets of the surviving world (SAC and ANZC especially) would certainly be a priority. The possession of the gold, in fact, might even be an incentive for a solid alliance with the PUSA who would have "claim" on the gold since the dissolution of the USA in 1995. In fact, if the Kentucky government agreed, the wealth represented there its value to the electronics industry probably being greater than any percieved "worth" as its rarity has given to jewelry and such) could be used as the "glue" to bring willing states back to a permanent union. Some states, such as the Virginian Republic and a reunited Texas would probably elect to remain separate at any rate.SouthWriter 19:48, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro, Kentucky as it is now TTL has access to the Ohio River, which is connected to the Mississippi. Getting through Louisville and northern Kentucky/Cincinnati might be tricky, but I would guess the radiation there is negligible in 2010. I'd think that the CRUSA would be screaming about the gold, and I wonder if the ANZC (as the legit successor to the US government) would see itself as the bonafide owner of the gold deposits. BrianD 20:10, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Southwriter, I was thinking the same thing about using the various rivers for trade. I still at this time am unsure what to do with all that gold. I could see Kentucky even joining the provisional USA. Perhaps the ANZC will claim it I'm not sure, only time will tell. I've got to give it sme thought.

Mitro, I agree that intail the gold just took up space but know that humanity is beginning to recover from Doomsdays now all that gold will come into play. GOPZACK 20:42, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Expansion
The article speaks generally of expansion without opposition into areas north and west of the Ohio River. It then says that "contact was made" with Cape Giradeau, Missouri. The map reveals that the Commonwealth seemed to have claimed the territory and THEN explored it. This Commonwealth is not expansionistic like its neighbor to the east (Virginian Republic) so how is this justifiable. It seems that Joplin and Cape Giradeau need to work towards claiming at least southern Missouri -- including the corner surrounding Cape Giradeau.SouthWriter 22:09, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I also think that this is way too optimistically big, but the size is pretty safely canon now. A lot of this was written when I was absent from the project. Benkarnell 22:20, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well if the size is to big of a problem for you we can always do what we did to Prussia. Mitro 23:14, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Kentucky is not expansionistic like Virginia is because the don't use force to acquire territory, all the land they have was acquired is through diplomacy or simply strolling in and finding nobody there. All expansion in South eastern Ohio, southern Indiana, and South Illinois has only yielded extremely small groups of survivors that were in the mood for surviving under better living conditions. As for Missouri if Kentucky were Virginia they would have kicked the crap out of Cape Girardeau and taken it over by force not entering negotiations set for the spring on a political union. Also as you know Joplin & Cape Girardeau haven't the power to claim or govern Missouri. Any issues about who owns what in Missouri that Joplin or Cape Girardeau will be determined in these negations. It is also only the South-east corner under Kentucky control as they seek to have a clear way to the Mississippi river so they can have peaceful trade down the line with other nations. Keep in mind while Kentucky maintains a strong military they do not have it "enshrined" in them like Virginia or love to wear their military uniforms at all times. --GOPZACK 00:23, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Heyyyyyyyy! That is seriously offensive Zack! The Virginians aren't like that at all! The Virginians would only "kick the crap out of the" Cape Girardeauans if the Cape Girardeauans had the brass cahones to attack them first. And the Virginians have good reasons to treat the military as they do. In the begining of the Virginian Republic they were one faction among many. To deal with this they developed a militaristic society. They did this so that they could restore order to the state of West Virginia, and the way they decided to do that was to pacify the many bickering warlords of the area. They suceeded, and thanks to their militaristic society they had the swiftest economic recovery of a post-US American state. And if you would read the page for Virginia you will see that time has mellowed them. Their scouting expeditions have shown that when they find large survivor state they genuinely offer to help them back on their feet. Portland is the biggest example of such. They became expansionistic to help bring their prosperity to the surrounding territory, and to make sure that there are no armed gangs destabilizing the region. They only fight when absolutely necessary. They do not "shoot first and ask questions later." And the government, while with militaristic overtones, is a virtual copy of the US government. It may have started as a militaristic dictatorship, but that was during the time needed to establish the nation fully. When that period was over, Thompson reestablished a constitution and willingly stepped down to his democratically-ellected sucessor. In fact, I would think that a militaristic-flavoured democratic government would be an improvement over the current US government. I believe that it would definitely bring corruption to a minimum, and would make the government run as smoothly as a well-maintained machine.

I hate going off on tirades like this, but the Virginians aren't as bad as you make them out to be. They are not the American answer to the Nazis.

Supersonic91 02:09, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Problem with article
There has been some objections to the current size of Kentucky, particularly in the above section and here. Until this dispute is settled I have marked Kentucky as a proposal (similar to what we did with Prussia, Iran and German Southwest Africa). Mitro 19:49, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Kentucky's Airforce
I'm sorry I didn't catch this or bring this up earlier.

HOW can Kentucky support/service/fuel this monstrous amount of aircraft, tanks and vehicles?
 * By this I'm meaning, where is the industrial, refinery, resources capacity in the state that existed prior to DD to support all this stuff. The incredible volume of this aircraft and such is FAR too optimistic in my opinion - it's about as believable for me as the 100,000 man detachment from Superior to help cosh the Canadians who've been menacing Saguenay. Louisiannan 22:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * They COULD be getting part of it from the shale and coal in the area. It's not easy, but I believe you can make gasoline from coal and shale (didn't Germany do so in WW II?)BrianD 22:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a stretch, but possible. Utah's doing it for their federal vehicles, but the program had already started prior to Doomsday AFAIK. Remember, though, they can't just refine it for gasoline, this is high-grade, high-quality jet fuel that they're going to have to reach, and the refining process after 25 years is going to be hard to come by unless they've somehow bootstrapped themselves up to it. I think it's MUCH more believable for this timeline to revert to WWI and WWII type of war-making, simply because the infrastructure is no longer there.
 * For that matter, the return on investment of using air-power when soldiers and ground vehicles would suffice make me wonder if they'd even have them in working order. The only real need for airstrikes is if someone else has them, and AFAIK, the only people that have functional airplanes in the US to date are Superior (somehow - I don't get it) and Utah. Louisiannan 22:16, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Alaska and Texas have functioning jet fighters of the old F-5A Freedom Fighter kind. By "functioning airplanes" do you mean jets? Because the NAU has F-4 Phantoms.HAD 22:22, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I question the feasibility of that, too. This is a dystopia. Louisiannan 22:31, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think enough people have died to give this TL the distinction of being dystopia. I wouldn't worry about a few fighter jets ruining that. GOPZACK 22:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Louisiannan if you had looked looked in the "economy" section you would have noticed the following
 * "Oil and gas are produced from more than 1,500 pools in Kentucky from rocks of Cambrian to Pennsylvanian age. Most oil is produced from Mississippian limestone and sandstone in eastern and western Kentucky or from Ordovician limestone and dolomites in southern Kentucky. Most natural gas is produced from the Devonian black shale in eastern Kentucky."

With that said, let me be clear just because there is a large variety of vehicles do not mean that they are available in large quantities. Remember there is also a tank museum on the grounds of Fort Knox and those that were on display were restored to working order over the years. Brain is also right I'm sure there is some oil being extracted from shale and coal as well--GOPZACK 22:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * And oil extraction is all well and good, but I don't know that anyone, short of ANZC has the production capacity to make jet-flight engine parts, or modern machinery - We're looking at a significant set back, and I don't know that they would use these jets against minor targets - they'd pull out the stops in a real war, but minor conquest efforts, I doubt. It's a waste of resources. Louisiannan 22:31, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The 2 B52's were the only aircraft used during the whole war that were from Kentucky. It was hardly a massive bombing campaign. The only other airborne equipment used were helicopters during a few missions.


 * Also some of these fighter jets came from Godman Army Airfield that were built before DoomsdayGOPZACK 22:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine, and fine, I'm just saying let's keep this closer to the feel of the timeline. Pardon my saying this, but this isn't a military conquest wank-fest. I'm afraid if we're not careful we're going to have little would-be warlords flying whole squadrons of F-15s and platoons of M1 Abrams tanks all across North America as they have their little God-complex.
 * I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just worried that the timeline can head this way very quickly if we don't course correct.
 * I think the ground forces mentioned were much more realistic than others suggested in other skirmishes in the timeline - when I saw the sheer volume of aircraft suggested that Kentucky had I could only balk, hence my reaction. Louisiannan 22:45, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh it's perfectly understandable, I have no hard feelings at all. I can assure you that Kentucky is not now and will never be "ittle would-be warlords flying whole squadrons of F-15s and platoons of M1 Abrams tanks all across North America as they have their little God-complex." As for the rest of the would be contributors who knows what may come down the pike in the future. So I take it you've dropped your objection to the Virginian- Jackson war article? --GOPZACK 23:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * If it's two B-52's or WWII equivalent tech, yeah, I'd be okay with that. Louisiannan 00:13, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Subdivisions
How many subdivisions is Kentucky divided into? Mitro 18:34, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the Commonwwealth is divided into four potential states and one sure allied nation. I figure that Portland is going to end up as the capital of what might as well be called West Tennessee, so the other areas around the main state of Kentucky would be Indiana (Bloomington), Ohio, and Girardeau (the city-state of Cape Girardeau being awarded control of all the area west of the Mississippi presently claimed by the commonwealth). Part of the former state of Tennessee closest to the established nation of East Tennessee might need to be ceded to them in the interest of good international and regional good will.

That's the way I see it coming together, but its up to Zack. SouthWriter 19:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is rough map I made but you have given me a few ideas to think about South. --GOPZACK 19:55, April 12, 2010:(UTC)


 * If I am reading the map right, you have a state surrounding Cape Girardeau. Is there any reason why Kentucky "needs" this land? And also, in the east, is that far eastern section different color than the western section? SouthWriter 01:07, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Something screwy happened with the colours when I saved it so I numbered them instead. As for Cape Girardeau the long term plan was for them to become a subdivision of Kentucky.GOPZACK 01:12, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems odd that the Cape would let themselves be surrounded like that even if they do have good relations with Kentucky. IMO some of that territory circling the Cape would be Cape territory and not a part of Kentucky. Mitro 01:29, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, exactly what are the boundaries of "state 4"? And is "state 8" the rest of Indiana (as yet undiscovered)? SouthWriter 03:28, April 13, 2010 (UTC)