Talk:Second Sicily War (1983: Doomsday)

War in the Mediterranean!
As of 9:33 PM (Eastern European Time) men from a Sicilian ship attempted to board a Greco-Libyan oil-freighter. Fortunately, the Greeks, Egyptians, and Libyans on the freighter (with 2 casualties) were able to fend off the attack, killing 3 and capturing 2. The other four men were able to flee back to their own vessel. Originally the crew believed them to be pirates, until the flag of Sicily was seen hanging from their stern. The oil-tanker was able to sail to the Greek-mandate of Cyrenaica, and the government in Skyros was radioed, alerted to the violence. At midnight, Saturday October 10th, an emergency meeting was convened of the different delegates of the new Confederation (I've decided to strengthen Greece into a Confederation, if that's okay) of Greece. At 12:30 the Confederation of Greece declared war on Siciliy, giving it 24 hours to apologize and meet the earlier demands given to it, to which they did not respond. The Atlantic Defense Community at its member states were alerted. Mr.Xeight 20:26, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Since Sicily is such a fascist and presumably militaristic, nation, I believe the Greeks would have their hands full. I can definitely see the Greeks, who I think are overextended, franky getting, the tar, stuffing and snot beaten out of them. --Yankovic270 00:49, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Overextended is right! Maybe not so badly as you say, since they've probably got the sea power to maintain themselves, but Sicily will probably be able to resist anything they can throw at them on the land. Benkarnell 00:52, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Because the Alpine Confederation, Egypt, Pais del Oro, Celtic Confederation, and Portugal won't also take on Sicily right, Yankovic? Let's see Sicily defend its northern borders from the Austro-Swiss and its southern borders from the Greeks, Egyptians, and Spanish. Mr.Xeight 02:27, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now this is the second big war going on right now. I think the Saguenay War's being done right - discuss it on its own page, and talk about likely outcomes before posting news events. What shall we call it? Benkarnell 03:24, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Since the Saugenay War is going on right now, should we wait to iniate the war so as not to steal the spotlight of the North American War? Mr.Xeight 03:29, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, history marches on. If the inhabitants of 83DD are to have their war, there's precious little we can do to stop them, here on this side of the dimensional divide. I think we can handle it. (It might be a good idea to clear out some old discussions and proposals right now, however...) Benkarnell 03:32, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

It's funny how both countries' national teams are in the same group trying to qualify for the World Cup, and war breaks out. I believe protocol would be to suspend play until hostilities cease, even though I don't have them going head to head in the final week of group play.--BrianD 03:45, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Who even put Sicily as a team in the world cup? They're a pariah state who's remained totally silent when asked why they're terrorizing the Med. I doubt they'd even be in any inter-European soccer league what with being the monsters of the Mediterranean. Mr.Xeight 03:50, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know who put together the list of "European countries invited to the event". I decided to build on what little had been posted about the World Cup, and had all the European nations listed competing (albeit putting them into qualifying rounds). I thought about leaving them out, but North Korea is as close to a pariah in the real world as I can come up with, and it regularly competes in international sporting events. I figured Sicily was in a similar situation, and that FIFA and the other European member nations would allow them to compete, if for no other reason than to open lines of communication between the two sides. If Sicily's participation isn't realistic, however, I can easily switch them out, perhaps with Prussia.--BrianD 04:01, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, well then I suppose you're right. But how would fans react to the temporary suspension of their game? Has this happened in our world? Who do you see winning the 2009 FIFA world cup? Mr.Xeight 04:07, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you brought up the point, Mr.Xeight. It's worthy of discussion. Fans would be disappointed, obviously. Sicily would probably use suspension of its match for propaganda purposes. As far as has it happened, I need to investigate that. Brazil tops the current FIFA World Rankings, and would be even more of a powerhouse in 83DD. Italy is fourth, by the way...Sicily probably wouldn't be 4th in our world, but in 83DD it might be one of the top sides. But as far as winning its group, I haven't decided yet.--BrianD 04:15, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

I believe that Sicily could repeat the North African campaign of WWII by invading the Greek mandates in North Africa from its pre-existing beachhead of Tunisia. And I would think that the Atlantic Alliance (I have forgotten the real name) would be more focused on the Sanguenay/Gape War in Canada to notice. --Yankovic270 03:13, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Alpine Confed. is tied up with sending its troops to wherever a 3,000 mile away area there's fighting in, nor would Egypt, Portugal, or Spain. Besides, even if say the Libyans (who don't have an established nation we know of) don't side with the Greeks, they'll still attack the Sicilians. And any Arab Tunisians not happy being under Catholic Sicilian rule might do them in from within. Mr.Xeight 03:19, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

It just seems that since the Italians prtetty much reverted to fascism, they would recycle tactics from WWII. On that note, I think an invasion of Eithiopia could be added to the article on Sicily. It is not a demand or anything, just a polite suggestion. And I think THIS war is between Sicily and Greece ONLY. --Yankovic270 03:47, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * First off, Greece is a member of the ADC an organization specifically created to contain Sicily. Even with the Saguenay war, it seems unlikely that they would do nothing now. I agree with Mr. X that the Alpine Confederation would get involved. Second off, just because they are fascists doesn't mean they will copy every page in Benito's playbook. A political ideology doesn't mean military tactics would revert back to a previous era and there has been 40 years of technology and tactical improvement to account for. Also remember that the mafia wasn't exactly allies of the fascists in WWII. Third, why should they go for Ethiopia? Do they have a navy to do it? Is the Suez even open for them? What is there that they need that they can't get from North Africa or Europe? Ethiopia is to far away for the Sicilians to consider. Mitro 04:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mitro. So far, only the Celtic Alliance has committed itself to helping Canada. Sicily strikes much closer to home for most of the Atlantic countries. Actually, two simultaneous wars is a good way to highlight the weakness of the ADC: there really is no way for the countries to fight two wars at once. They'll have to divide their forces. The total lack of support for Canada, an ADC member, suggests that future ggressors need not take it too seriously. Benkarnell 18:47, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

So what you're saying is I brought down an organization? Interesting...
 * Anyway, we all know who's going to win this. You've got Alpinians and Spaniards out for revenge, Greeks out for land, Tunisians out for independence, and everyone else because they're allied to the main defenders. I've designed a plan, one immediately after the war, the 2nd what the Greeks expect the peninsula to look like 10 years after.

Mr.Xeight 21:49, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Here it is.


 * Hurrah! I go away for Thanksgiving (yes, it's early in Canada) and I find a new war waiting when I get back! I'm glad someone took it upon themselves to continue this. In-universe, do you think that maybe Sicily was waiting for something to distract the ADC before they struck? Or was it just good timing? In Canada, since obviously less help will be given then the Canadians would like, this war could make the Canada First Party even more popular, maybe culminating in Canada leaving the ADC. --DarthEinstein 22:39, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, we should make a page for this war, like we did with the Saguenay war. --DarthEinstein 22:45, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with DarthEinstein - the war in Canada was probably seen as the perfect time to strike for Sicily. I should revise what I said earlier. The ADF did commit troops to help Canada; it was just that only the Celtic Alliance sent a serious amount. And everyone seemed OK with that; it was the agreement made last month at the emergency meeting in the Azores. Sicily, then, may have miscalculated: all ADF members in its neighborhood still have most of their troops at home. So if anything, this might strengthen the ADF if Egypt, Libya, or Tunisia want to become members. Benkarnell 20:00, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

First off I'm offended all of this happened when I was away, such as the naming of the war, moving it to a new page, and even writing the news article on the main page. Second, I never had Sicily declaring war on anyone using the North American War as a distraction. I was just fed up by nothing happening in the ADC-Sicily Cold War and decided to take matters in my own hands. I regrettably never followed the Canada-Saugenay War, only skimming the talk page. And if you all have read the article on the "start" of the war, it was started by Sicilian privateering gone wrong, they never intended the ship to be able to flee to friendly territory. I'd also like to tell you I'm going to brood off in the corner for awhile, as I'm not to happy my brainchild was tampered with without my permission, regardless if the 1st Sicilian War and the idea of an evil-Sicily in general were not of my creation. Mr.Xeight 01:37, October 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Halt all work until Mr. Xeight gets back as far as I'm concerned. I would suggest leaving it as is for Mr. Xeight to make edits to later, or for debate once he returns. I like this idea, but the originator of the idea should be given leverage over the content. Lahbas 02:00, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

That was completely unnecessary for me to say. I'm not mad, hurt a little bit, yes, but I didn't mean what I said. I don't it'll be right for me to pull my complaint, that's what I'm going to need to keep me in-line. I'd like to propose an invasion of Sicily. The Alpinians coming from the north, Iberian nations (if they can even contribute) from the west and hit Campania. Whereas I'd propose any troops stationed with Greek North Africa move on, taking Italy from surprise (sort of) from Calabria. Incase of a Sicilian invasion, I'd propose any Egyptian and Libyan soldiers stay where they are, sending naval support instead. Finally, Libyan border raids on Tunisia might be nice, as well stirring up tension between Arab Tunisians and their Sicilian overlords.
 * I hope you all don' think I'm a war-enthusiast dork now :D, or a whiny person, which again I apologize for.

Mr.Xeight 02:08, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

I'll take all the blame, since I think I did every one of the things you;'re upset about. The news items are direct quotes of your posts, so I figured they were OK. Everything else is completely tentative. This page exists mostly because discussion was going too long. The text in the mainspace (the non-Talk stuff) I kept very short because it hasn't been written yet. Sicily's taking an opportunity t ostrike during another war was a very recent idea from DE that seemed (to me) to unify recent events. Chnage it, and move the page, no problem. I;m sorry. Benkarnell 02:16, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

New Material
With my page on the Greco-Sicillian war no longer needed, i have transferred all material here, and will now post all my edits and additions here. --Das Taub 22:57, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Why has all my work on this page been removed? i have spen a awful lot of time researching and writing it, to make it fit in with the rest of the TL. does it not fit up to standard? i am slightly miffed. i would like to have my stuff added back on, so i may continue to do my best to make this page a worthy addition to this TL. --Das Taub 22:33, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Mr.Xeight felt that his work was being hijacked - this whole thing was his idea, after all, and he wants a chance to write it. Benkarnell 22:44, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean no disrespect for Mr Xeight. i saw an opening that to my eyes no-one was using, and so i resolved to fill that opening. if Mr Xeight would be so kind, i'm sure we can work together on this page, to make it one of the best in the whole of 1983 doomsday. --Das Taub 22:05, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

i personally think portugal spain paris del oro and the alpine confed will join greece in this war and dont u think siclly would be in correspondence with supperiour and sangey just a thought--Connornics 22:25, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

I've already established Spain & Portugal giving support, as well as the CA possibly donating some medical supplies & medics. Mr.Xeight 23:34, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

whos going to win and what happens after thats the big question


 * Sicily, like the two American nations, is a very regional country. I doubt Sicily would even know how to contact Saugenay and Superior, although it's possible. Now they do have a common enemy, after all: the Atlantic Defense League. On the other hand, I am guessing that the ADL nations will be dividing their forces, with the Celtic Alliance and Canada sending most of the troops to the American war, and Greece and the others sending most forces to the Mediterranean. Benkarnell 23:39, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

i personally think that the ADC may set up an iltallian republic after the war --Connornics 23:39, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Connornics haven't you even read my proposals? SCROLL UP, please. Mr.Xeight 01:02, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Aha, I missed that one too. Can you explain what the colors mean, please? I find it very likely that the Sicilian regime won't be totally wiped out, but merely kept from interfering outside their own backyard, as it were. An "Iraq 1992" solution. Even with two strongish countries and a few weaker ones as enemies, I don't know that the coalition will be enough to totally topple the Sicilians. Benkarnell 01:11, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * I never had any idea's for what happened later on in the war. my ideas were a Sicilian joint Naval and Land campaign to conquer Egypt, with the sea component defeated by the Hellenic Navy (Second Battle of Cape Matapan) and the land campaign steamrollering to the El Alamain Position, before foreign intervention comes to the Aid Of Greece. i Researched modern Naval OOBs for the Cape Matapan Battle, and hope it sounds realistic, and would like it to bee re-added back in. i assume it could be canon, and not upset the ide's of the conflict Mr Xeight has. --Das Taub 01:25, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

ok i mean if you had been to ar twice with someone and you had a chance to go for it you probably would--Connornics 19:15, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe. I would hope that after theevents of Doomsday, humanity would have moved away from total war - at least in the "more civilized" parts of the world, those with at least some stability. The Atlantic Defense countries, I'd think & hope, would not make annihilating Sicily their main goal. And removing the "mafia" regime would probably involve annihilating the island. Benkarnell 20:37, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Das Taub I warned you once, stop interfering with my article. Why the hell would Italy eb so stupid as to attack a peninsula in the Peloponnesus, the tip of the most WARLIKE nation in Greece. I don't want you messing around my article, so please stop. Mr.Xeight 23:24, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to put a color-code on the Greek proposal antebellum. The light orange that corresponds with Tunisia is Tunisia, immediately liberated. The blue in the first map is an LON-administered zone, whereas the sky blue in the 2nd is the Republic of Sicily. In both the 1st and 2nd maps the red is the FoG (by January '01 Greee will become a federation, or at least we hope so). The green in the 2nd map is the Republic of Benevento, an old nation. The beige is the Papal States, or the Republic of Rome, I haven't decided. Finally, the magenta is obvious. I was thinking of adding a 3rd buffer-zone, Tuscany because personally I believe the Greeks will be nervous there are two large forces on the Italian Penisula. I was thinking of Greece keeping Calabria, Apulia, and the region in between whose name I do not remember. Mr.Xeight 23:36, October 28, 2009 (UTC) Mr.Xeight 23:36, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

good idea but papal sates would the catholic chuch be able to hold together and country and would the ADC allow a theocracy

I never thought of that. I believe Xi'Reney might have to decide. Since Catholicism is mainly regionalized now, I was thinking the surviving Orthodox Church in the CoG/FoG might persuade (or pressure) this brand of Catholicism into unification. Mr.Xeight 00:04, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

I Spent Ages writing and researching that Material. i will not let all my hard work go down the drain. the naval attack was meant to draw out the Greek navy so it could be destroyed. cut me sone slack, and just allow all my hard work to be included. --Das Taub 00:58, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Would you please stop?!
 * You are taking over this project, ruining it for me. You have no idea how htis war is going to plan out, I have no idea how this war is going to plan out. So until you stop trying to take this article for your own, you are not working on this. I don't your like ideas, I thought I made that pretty evident.
 * Your work is not wanted, no matter how long it took you to research it.

Mr.Xeight 01:02, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

I will not stop until my ideas are accepted, or i am kicked of this wiki.--Das Taub 01:14, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Why do you find it neccessary to make my life more stressful than it already is? How about I create articles on each of your articles on an enormous Greek empire that takes over Italy, Brazil, North Africa, East Africa, and Indonesia? Would you like it? Mr.Xeight 01:39, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

now now boys this is a wiki not a playground fight any way lets get back on the uissue on wther to divide iltaly--Connornics 02:05, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

I mNever said that Greece would steamroller Sicily. i had the exact opposite view. Greece would defeat the naval attack, but lose Libya and Egypt, before Greece's allies came to the rescue. sorry i lost my temper back there. can we just work out a peaceful solution? --Das Taub 02:13, October 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed. The place to discuss it is on this page. You both know what each others' plans are for the course of the war. Following the procedure we've been using for the (stalled) Saguenay War, MrX8 as creator does have veto power, more or less. But throwing out solid, well researched ideas out of hand is probably a poor use of that power. Taub edited the page in good faith having no idea that it was being "saved".
 * If I may offer suggestions of my own, I'll repeat that I do not think Greece and the A.C. will be able to wipe away the current Sicilian regime. I don't think it's possible without a bloodbath, I don't think either side wants a bloodbath, and I think the League of Nations would intervene to prevent a Total War from erupting. That is most of the LoN's reason for being, after all - to prevent wars, but to contain and limit them wherever possible. I don't see Greece all-out annexing Italy, either. As someone mentioned already, they must be stretched thin as it is, administering two large pieces of Libya plus the land around Suez. Containing Sicily will probably be their best hope.
 * Another suggestion is that the Yugoslavs be brought into it. Instability in the Mediterranean must affect them. Benkarnell 02:30, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

the slavs my act but in what way peackeepers or by chooseing a side--Connornics 16:19, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

We have no idea about the Yugoslavs, there was a page on the "South Slavic Union" but someone poked a major hole in it about the bombings of some grain-proudcing state, their bread-basket. So there might be some tiny statelets, survivor colonies is more like it.
 * As for my decision on the bombardment of "help", itstands, whether it be deemed a poor decision or not.

Mr.Xeight 00:07, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

so whos going to win this war and what happens afterward --Connornics 00:41, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

The ADC hopefully, only because they have sheer size on their side. Sicily loses its mainland & Tunisian possessions, and is administered by the LoN for awhile. The FoG/CoG gets the southern tip of Italy, 3 republics are made, and to the north the Alpinians move in. But this war is going to take some time, months, maybe a year, as wars don't generally go so clean-ut and nice to the winners. Mr.Xeight 00:57, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

In an effort to get back into the details of DD...Mr.Xeight and Taub please step back from this style of harsh discussion. It does no fit int the way we always handled those things. Agreed that being the first to write/start something gives you a sort of "last word". But not the right to say "my idea is the only acceptable way". So would you two please come to reason and try to co-work this article as both your suggestions seems to be usseful and I do not want researched stuff "going down the drain"?? Maybe you even find a way to include your differing ideas into the story itself, like being propaganda on either side... "The americans are dying a the thousands on the gates of Baghdad"...?

Concerning the events in the Second Sicily War my remarks:

1. A papal state in the aftermath being installed I would indeed believe unrealistic... First due to Rome itself having been destroyed in Doomsday, secondly because of the structure of Catholic Church in this world being radically changed (South America being the overwhelming centre of the religion with the rest being in a Catholic Diaspora...space for further exploration...

I agree to the above mentioned point the ADC being at the very limit of its capacities fighting two wars... So I would guess the main part of the war would be carried out by the Alpine Confederation from the NOrth and the Greeks from the south.

2. I think some factors influencing the whole war have been left out until now: - Alpine Confederations established status as protector of the Northern Italy regions maintained in the earlier war! - Position of the SAC and the ANZC even though I would guess them trying to maintain formal neutrality apart from logistical support by the ANZC...imagining them protecting the Suez Channel Zone and trying to secure Aid Convoys shipping throughout the Mediterranean would at least limit Sicilian naval activities not being willing to risk open war declaration by the ANZC.

The outcome I guess would be a general "tactical victory" of the ADC and allies (after months!). After intense diplomatic pressure from SAC /ANZC not to go further: Resulting in Mainland Italy 8northern part) being put under some kind of LoN-headed admistrated territory, (north being occupied by Alpine, or like a NOrthern Italy city state coalition headed by Venice and Milano...) but Sicily itself (plus southern Italy) being allowed to continue, maybe with Tunisia or territories having voted in PLebiscite??... Some ideas to add to the discussion... --Xi&#39;Reney 23:10, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

If is okay Mr. Xeight I think that Sicily should be wining the war for the initial months launching assaults into both Northern Italy, North Africa (Libya, Egypt), and maybe even into Greece. Because Sicily is a facist power it is most likely to be a strong military power. Therefore it is most likely that they would dominate the Greeks and Alpine until a major victory turns the war around in the Greek's favour and Sicily quickly collapses. --DjBarca

To answer your questions & comments, Xi... 1. Then I suppose that tract of land I drew on the map will be a "Central Italian Republic", or a "Roman Republic". 2. Greece owns the Suez Area but the LoN and I believe even the Oceanians having benefits there. So if the Sicilians go anywhere near Suez, they might just in-fact run into Australians and New Zealanders. 3.Xi'Reney you foret, Greece is just as land-and-power-hungry as Sicily, only Greece bet on the right horse. No way will the Greeksset by and let the LoN draw up a map for a war the Greeks won themselves. I plan on Greece taking the southern tips of Italy for itself and forcing Sicily only to control the island of Sicily, which will be LoN administered for awhile. I also plan on a massive-scale proselytizing of Italy. There's an Italo-Greek Catholic Church in the south that might be pressured into reuniting with the Orthodox Church, as well as trying to convert Latin Rite Catholics, too. Mr.Xeight 03:43, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Changes to Sicily
Hey guys i'm modifying the Sicily republic to a neutral state.I do not think this article is needed anymore.Nomad
 * Please don't make such changes without discussing it with the group first. That content was part of established canon since this timeline was adopted by Xi. Mitro 18:34, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Finally!
Hopefully when I get home tonight I can start writing a page for the war! Let me just say; lots of phoney wars and surprise attacks. Mr.Xeight 19:14, November 26, 2009 (UTC)