Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Maps
Land Acquired (post year, then your nation, then what has changed)

1450 - 1459

 * (late on this, sorry) Cuzco did have a war for three years, taking 12 precent of the Aymara northern state from 1446-1449.

1450 - 1459

 * I think Oldenburg's 1449/1450 acquisition of Neu Baltrum (otl Jan Mayen) fits into this category. Callumthered (talk) 12:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

Part of the Treaty of Weimar was that Hamburg acquired southeastern Bremen. And Hamburg has since annexed Saxe-Lauenburg. I am that guy (talk) 00:14, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

For whatever reason Sicily has been taken out of the Aragonese color.

03:31, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because is not under your rule, long time ago Aragon and Sicily take separate ways. Quashi (talk) 16:24, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Amd why is venice taking land from Zeta??????Quashi (talk) 16:34, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

United Ulster and Munster via Personal Union with Local's permission. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

Munster/Eire fully expanded to hold all of Mayo (Western Ireland disunited clans). Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

The Koryak Confederacy isn't on the map. Krasnoyarsk (talk) 19:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Tibet has Taungoo as a vassal as of 1447 or 8      Jbwncster (Talk)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
As Rex is out and the religious schisms seem to be heating up, I went ahead and updated the religious map to reflect the 1435 political boundaries. All colors reflect the region's majority religion to the best of my knowledge. TankOfMidgets (talk) 06:53, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

It's good, but Oldenburg isn't Protestant, although I can understand why you'd think it is. Sedevacantism is just Catholicism which doesn't recognise any of the current papal claimants as legitimate popes. Other than that, it is the exact same as Catholicism. Callumthered (talk)

You also colored a bunch of states protestant that are Catholic in the lowlands. For example you colored Cologne, which in reality is so Catholic it's run by an archbishop. Not to mention it is an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. Mscoree (talk) 14:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Also why are a bunch of nations in Swabia colored different? Mscoree (talk) 14:07, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I can basically sum up these issues as "I was working off the 1427 map." I've gone back and post-scanned, and the map has been adjusted accordingly. Reformism is now limited to only Brabant-Holland-Hainaut; Oldenburg and Osnabruck are now shown as Sedevacantist (marked as a sub-branch of Catholicism), and Bavaria and its vassals are now correctly displayed as Catholic (since the Bavarian player hasn't yet announced his conversion in-post). TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:37, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in gold, and Sedevacantist states are shown in pale yellow. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Protestantism is red; I will add more sub-shades if more *Protestant sects arise. Sunni Islam is lime green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green. Hinduism is sky blue, while Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink.

Notes
 * Nations whose churches function autonomously but that otherwise hold similar beliefs have been lumped together under their "mother" church for ease of reference. For those curious why all the Orthodox states are orange even though they're administratively independent, or why France is listed as Catholic even though they're busy autonomizing the French Catholic Church, now you know.
 * I've only marked nations as "Western Church" if I found that their players officially stated their states' conversions in-game. This list includes England, Castille, Prussia, Munster, and Bavaria. I couldn't find a UNC response to the Western Church's conversion request, so the UNC is listed as Catholic.
 * Hinduism got a color change because I had a very hard time distinguishing Hindu military-green and Islamic lime-green on the map. On a related note: if you're a South/Southeast Asian nation, do me a favor and make sure I've listed your religion right; I made my best guesses, but I may be wrong.
 * If you're playing any of the "Native American" civilizations: I got to your religions last, which means you drew pink as your color. If you don't like it, I sincerely apologize. I also apologize for lumping your nations together as "pagan" nations - feel free to post the names of your religions in place of the "X region pantheon" descriptors.
 * Yes, China is listed as "Confucian," which is my catch-all term for the spiritual medley that is Chinese liturgical tradition. Japan is likewise "Shinto" even though it should probably technically be Shinto-Buddhist. It's easier to refer to them this way.
 * Oman is Ibadi, not Sunni, and has been for centuries; I've noted this because it's functionally a separate sect from the Sunni tradition, unlike the other non-Shia Islamic jurisprudence schools. Also, I don't see a single Shia state in existence at this point in time, so I don't yet have a Shia category.
 * Oriental Orthodoxy is a catch-all for the various "non-Chaledonian" churches: the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, the Nestorians, etc. Armenia was Oriental Orthodox, but was reconciled to standard Orthodoxy at the Council of Batumi, so it's listed as regular Orthodox. The Oyo Orthodox Church is also listed as standard Orthodox, since it (presumably) hasn't yet had time to go "heretic."
 * The Phillippines don't match any of the other religions on the map. This is because I couldn't figure out what they were, and didn't want to list them under another heading, so they're a different shade of blue from all the other Buddhist states. Related note: someone convert them so I can color them properly.
 * i made 1427 and i'll remake 1435   Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)
 * I updated a few mistakes and issues people were having and did a few countries new additions for 1445-46. You're welcome to use it.  SwankyJ (talk) 21:16, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * um the reformed church als oneeds its own colour. With Blood and Iron (talk) 11:07, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bavaria is Sedevacantist for now. My duke officially converted in 1436, while most of the Bavarian population belong to Reformed (gold colored) groups.
 * For the millionth time, Sedevacantist  isn't a religion. You can't convert to it, so that will be retconned. Mscoree (talk) 22:27, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, then Bavaria is reformed/Western church.
 * Reformed and western are too different things. I think you mean western. Mscoree (talk) 22:31, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've allowed Dutch reformists (as named by Nk) to preach in Bavaria years ago, but I've also followed France's example of distancing myself from Rome and constructing a unique state religion, so I guess it would be Western.

=General Discussion=



Ocean Currents and Discovery
Hello Fellow Voyagers! Like most of you, I am intersted in the Age of Exploration, but I would like this pivotal era to be tackled plausibly.

Note: I do not intend to harrass Viva, but he has just given me the reason needed to propse this idea which would help the game a ton.

Now, as some of you may have experienced with me, Viva claims to have sailed around Africa (over 150 years before progressive Europeans under Dias sailed to the Cape of Good Hope.) He also claims to have reached India (about 160 years earlier than De Gama's famed voyage).

Now, Viva will tell you that he has European technology. He will tell you that he has been trading (both overland and via sea) with Castille. I do not doubt that he has been trading and has some European technology. But lets be frank, he doesn't have 1500s era ships.

Now, we are also experiencing a little bit of fun with the Chinese voyage which has already taken place. This can trigger exploration by other people (like my Mamluks), and this is actually plausible. Lets look at ocean currents, shall we? (Those of you from PM2 may recognize these arguments - Viva made them frequently when defending his Vivempire.)



I do not pretend to fully understand this map, but I assume that the arrows indicate which direction the currents go. So, from China, for instance, the treasure fleet can go via the South Equatorial, then down the Aguinas, to the Benguela, and then just do some hard sailing the rest of the way. And from the Mamluks, we were in line when we sailed from the Aguinas to the Benguela, stopping at Kongo, and then going to Benin.

But as for Viva? He would have to sail against the Benguela, and then against the Aguinas, and then against the N. Equatorial. '''Plausible for war canoes? No.'''

How can we counter this problem in the future? Good question. I propose use of this page: Discoveries ; which will be laid out so that a player proposes a discovery (tech or geographical) and then a mod procedes to say aye or nay. A successful proposal would include: Thanks! (TL;DR We need a better system of discovery in order to prevent Viva from sailing to the moon. JK Viva, you are just the example, no hard feeling intended.)  07:31, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Achievement/Discovery
 * OTL Date of Discovery
 * ATL Proposed Date
 * ATL vs OTL facts which Change Things
 * Proof of plausibility (Use of maps, diagrams, Wikipedia, etc.)

One an ENTIRELY unrelated note, I will be really busy this weekend, and out of town, and camping, so I have asked MP to post for me. Please, mods, do not go to harsh on me/him since it'd be hard to handle any issues as I'll be out of town. 08:12, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

I would have to agree some people do seem to be doing exploration and naval technology unrealistically. Kunarian TALK 08:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I really like the Discoveries page proposal, sounds like a great idea. Fed (talk) 15:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Time to handle stuff. Trade between Africa and Europe had been commonplace for centuries before anyone bothered to sail around West Africa, chiefly through the Sahara Desert. I've stated this on multiple occassions, but appearently it isn't sinking into your heads (not directed at Rex). Unrelated note, Rex, this is like the 500th time you've brought this up. What's your deal?

If you would be so kind as to direct your attention to the right, you'll there is a map showing the trade routes between West Africa and North Africa. Three of those trade routes land smack dab on top of Oyo territory (once the mapmakers correct the map, you'll see Oyo controls the entire coastline of West Africa), meaning that I can and always have had the ability to trade with Europe, just as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai did in OTL. Also, when I began trading with Feud, I requested missionaries as well, which he sent, meaning that Catholicism would have plausibly reached Oyo. Additionally, like Ethiopia, Oyo would have accepted the belief because of their leader. Most historical conversations failed when the leader, the person to whom the looked too for guidance, refuted the belief. King Ezana of Axum accepted it, and converted, leading to his people embracing Christianity. Oranyan was baptized, and embraced the belief, as did his nobles, but for some reason that was deemed ASB. I don't know why, but I think some of the mods better pick up a book and understand it IS plausible.

Now on the matter of the ships. Early in the game, my nation had large canoes much greater in size than a Viking longship (about 60 feet long and carrying 120 men according to OTL examples regarding African military technology). These ships were not sailing against the current as the current is most powerful away from the coast. The canoes I used were used to reach Angola, and stuck to the coast, not away from it. Nowhere did I ever use the canoes to reach Europe or the Middle East, and only made my move to South Africa in a prolonged voyage, but aways had my men stop to forage for supplies and food, since these were professional warriors trained to survive away from home (like in OTL West Africa).

On the matter of the "15th century vessels", they aren't "15th century vessels". Their indigenous craft built by the Oyo for long-distance trade, not European ships. The Oyo sent a trade delegation to Castille in the early 1400s after Mali tried to hike up the toll for trade (in-game post), forcing the Oyo to search for a way away the Mali. Given the importance of the gold trade to OTL West African economies, Oyo had a plausible reason to search for another way. This resulted in them reaching Morocco on their own through the desert (as the Tuaregs would support anyone with enough money though the desert), and seeing how trade was conducted aboard actual ships. Given that Oyo possessed an OTL industry Mali did not (as Oyo and West Africa in general, were historically more urbanized that the rest of Africa), and possessed a natural port for shipbuilding, which the Oyo had engaged in, but not on a seriously level.

Thus, when need to get around the hostile desert arose, as well as need to trade with someone other than the Mali to sustain the economy, the Oyo turned to the sea. Since Oyo and Castille were trading by land, there were many members of the Oyo nation working in Castille (as would be normal for trading missions). Thus, many had much time to observe the workings of ships from their locations, and could give that information to the men heading back to Oyo. Over the next thirty odd years, Oyo spent that time working to build their own ships, not copies of European ships. In the same manner in which the Japanese had the atakebune, the Chinese having the junks, the Arabs the dhow, and the Indians the boita, the Oyo had the yanyan and the nlanla, ships built out of neccessity. They saw the wealth of Europe and North Africa, and needed that wealth to sustain their own. Rather than allow themselves to lose that window of opprotunity, the Oyo made the jump to build ships by trial and error, and got these two classes of ship.

Now onto the currents. The currents would present a problem for manpowered ships such as canoes, but for sailing vessels, no. Being heavier and powered by wind, sailing ships, especially those situtated near the equator, would have an easier time rounding the Cape of Good Hope as opposed to one coming straight north, such as those from Europe. So if anything, an Oyo ship would be able to make the trip as opposed to one from say, England. Now you say "progressive Europeans" in such a way as to indicate that Oyo is neither progressive nor able to do anything seaworthy as it is not European. For the last thirty years, Oyo had a progressive emperor who focused on modernization, and traveled frequently so as to understand as much about his world to help his people advance. If anything, Oyo is just as progressive as any European nation. You speak of fame and progression, but you forget one simple fact. Europe was far removed from South Africa and didn't know about the Cape of Good Hope.

Europe had no reason to round the cape of Africa as it traded through the Byzantine Empire for centuries. Only when the Ottoman Empire took over and threatened the European trade routes did the latter make attempts to get around the Cape, which they only discovered after the fall of Constantinople. Note how Columbus only made his trip fourty years after the city's fall, and only when it became appearent that the Turks wouldn't be good partners. That's the only reason Europe turned to the sea. Before that, all trade went through the East. When the East turned red, the Europeans turned West. Unlike the Europeans who had no logical reason to round the cape, the Oyo are in a position of strength, as they had knowledge of the cape (which Europe did not as they hadn't explored the area yet), and they have good relations with the Arabs and the Europeans. Since the Oyo are located far from Arabia with whom they trade greatly, they have a reason to turn to the sea to reach them, and a monetary reason at that.

So my reasons are perfectly plausible and grounded in fact rather than fiction. Recap time. Europe only turned to Africa after the Turks refused them access to the East, prompting the attempt to find a way to reach the then fabled India. Oyo turned to the Cape out of necessity as it needs to trade with Arabia and Castille without making long trips through the desert, and thus turned to the sea. Since Oyo knows about Europe, it has a reason to trade with Europe. Since Europe has no reason to go around the cape (as the East is still accessible), and most of Africa remains unexplored by Europe, they have no reason to go so far south unless they are trading with Oyo.

Now, I'm sorry about the wall of text, but it was important for my explaination. I think I've explained my point nicely enough Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:39, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yes Scraw. 35 years, just like Japan. Like Japan, Oyo had both an incentive and foundation to do so. Oyo possessed the economic capital to pay for the modernization, the government stability and popularity to push through reforms, and many of the required industries already existed in Oyo (iron foundries, as well as advanced woodworking and stonecutting). Oranyan made education compulsory early in his reign long before the modernization efforts came, and like Japan, sent scholars, experts, and merchants throughout the world (known world) to learn what they could and return with that knowledge. Like Japan's Charter Oath with legalized the pursuit of modernization (effectively demanding Japan modernize), Oranyan decreed that modernization would be the sole focus of his government from the beginning of the game. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:50, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.


 * 20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

The number of tribes that were actually a threat are small, since most of those 30,000 tribes were very small, number only a few thousand members at the most. The Yoruba who make up the majority in the Oyo Empire, a heavily centralized empire OTL and ATL, numbered in the millions for centuries. Only the Akan are a threat, and I've mostly pacified them. Plus, most of the Akan lived in the interior since they had no reason to live on the coast. Most of the food they act was grown or hunted in the interior. Only when the Europeans arrived did the Akan move toward the coast due to the presence the coastal "factories", where the slave trade and Afro-European trade took place. And back to the tribes issue, most of the tribes are related, and OTL didn't fight one another because of that. Their tribal status had more to due with location rather than ethnicity, something any person would be to look up on the internet.

Plus, because of the Oyo and Castille trade agreement, Oyo gets weapons (non-gunpower) and armor, meaning Oyo is leagues above any of the tribes that they out-number and out-tech. Fun fact by the way, most of the 30,000 tribal groups appeared when empires such as Oyo, Benin, Songhai, and Mali, broke up into mini-empires, which the modern ethnic groups of Africa were formed. That only took place in the late-1500s and mid-1600s, far from where I am now. Those tribes also broke up even further with differences in language and belief, another result of the collapse of West African kingdoms during the Colonization era. So there are no massive tribal groups as you and others would like to believe. So you, Scraw, have nothing to fight with, since OTL invalidates everything you have claimed. Your argument has been invalidated. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Oh. Insults. Classy. When that is your only fallback, you've lost all credibility. You asked me only question, a question I couldn't see since my internet is derpy. Oranyan made education compulsory because he needed as many thinkers as possible as he knew he couldn't rely on Europe for all of his knowledge. If he wanted to advance, he needs to have people who can read, write, and record all of the information needed to make it happen. Another fun fact if you didn't notice (which I suppose you didn't), in Judea, all parents were required to teach their children. The Aztecs (as I suspected), are regarded as the first nation to formally make acquiring an education compulsory throughout the social ladder, as well as create an entire system for it. This took place nearly a hundred years before Scotland passed the Education Act of 1496, the first European nation to do so. And Scraw, just because EUROPE isn't doing something doesn't mean the BIG, VAST, HIGHLY DIVERSE WORLD isn't doing something they aren't. China was the most advanced nation on the planet, and Europe wasn't doing a thing the Chinese were. Does that now mean that China can't do any of the stuff they did because Europe isn't? That belief is ignorant and ludicrous.

You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained). So get your facts straight and do your research before stating something that is clearly incorrect. And maybe when your manners improve, I'll change my tone. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the note of insults. Viva, lately in chat and elsewhere you have been quite aggressive, calling people names on the chat who are simply asking about your nation. Now we even have you attacking Scraw for something he didn't even say. It seems like any time someone brings up your nation you go into a fit of roid rage. Mscoree (talk)

"You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained)."

Let's re-read what I've said so far.

"Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

Now where in all those statements did I say that Africa had 30,000 tribes?

Let's go over what Guns said.

"Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

As you can see, you have confused me for the more ignorant Guns.

21:20, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed I have. I apologise for the mix-up. Your lightsabers confused me. Scraw, go back to black and white, its easier and cooler that way.

Ignorant, my ass.

Let's look at the statistics from 1800, shall we? That's the earliest we can really get.

There were 10,000 distinct kingdoms or other such groups, and approximately 3,000 ethnicities (sorry, I accidentally added an extra zero earlier).

Now, even assuming there were half as many groups- and I see no reason why that would be so- then you should STILL have massive issues.

You currently control large parts of Nigeria and Benin. These two areas historically had about 400 ethincities between them. Nowadays, there are only really three major ones left.

You made a trade agreement with Castille... seriously? That IS ASB. In conclusion; there is a REASON that the biggest African empires OTL were Muslim ones in North Africa.
 * 1) You underestimate the racism of this time. People in Europe considered people from the next town over 'untrustworthy foriegners'. Keep in mind that these are people of the same culture, religion, superstitions, skin colour, and general geogrpahic area as them. You have NONE of those in common.
 * 2) There is very little you could offer them. You do not have the capacity to actually send shipments of gold over to them, and in any case, they have no reason to trade. They have steel and guns. You have wooden spears and war chants.
 * 3) The Oyo were heavily centralized OTL because they were very small. If you only rule over people of your own tribe- as the Oyo did, OTL, over the Yoruba- then that's fine. You, however, also control the lands of Hausa and Igbo.
 * 4) Also note that Gunpowder is not a big advantage at this point. Steel and etc is more important.

I'm not even going into your ridiculous conversion to Catholicism.

In conclusion, I think you were railing against the correct idiot in the first place. I completely agree with you over education- in most of Mali, for instance, people are extremely literate, partly due to the effects of the Songhai or Mali empires (and please note that the second of those was Muslim, and the first declined due to them- kind of like Axum).

21:54, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Once again, this is 1436, the height of the Sub-Saharan African empires. Not 1800 during their great declines (and long after the point I stated many collapsed into mini-empires). You say 1800 is the earliest you can get when countless history books state that there were only a handful of ethnic groups in Africa as a whole, and only by the 1600s did that number increase. Historically, most of the empires in West Africa were highly contained ethnic groups, which were large and possessed a signle language, hence the reason they succeded as empires. However, after their collapses, they broke up, and their people began speaking dialects of the original language, leading to the formation of the numerous tribes. So I have no issues as most of the people in West Africa are either Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Hausa, or Mandinka. I only have three of them in my empire and the Yoruba outnumber them all.

Now, having a trade pact with Castille isn't ASB as you want to believe.

The reason the Muslin ones were bigger is because they were the most aggressive and controlled nearly all of the trade routes in Africa. Henceforth the reason Oyo turned to the seas. And please, tell me why the conversion makes no since. Don't bring it up and say its stupid without giving a reason. If that's all you've got, then your argument makes no sense and only reinforces the stance that Oyo can convert (as you haven't provided a reason why they cannot).
 * 1) Castille traded with Mali and Songhai for centuries, as did many other European empires, and numerous maps of the era showed Mali under Mansa Musa on the same tier of power and respect as European kings (one such map showing him the same size as European kings north of his lands).
 * 2) You don't know that. For all you know I could have thrown them to Castille. There was a clear route to the north (as I just put on page not more than an hour ago), and Oyo being the dominant power in the region, can enforce its trade hegemony on these routes. If you read the posts between me and Feud, I have been trading ivory, gold, diamonds, and exotic fruit with him, things the Europeans literally killed each other over during the time. I have both the capacity and power to trade with them. Also, your statement of Oyo only having "wooden spears and war chants" is incorrect in the highest degree. Benin, Oyo, and Ife all possessed iron age weapons of the same quality as the Europeans (in fact if you did the research you'd see that Oyo and Benin warriors wore and wielded iron armor and weapons). And FYI, the Europeans also wooden spears (wooden shaffs with pikes, spears, and glaives attached to them) and war chants (taunts and drums to frieghten and provoke the enemy). And only a few people have guns right now, not all of Europe.
 * 3) So were half of the European natons Guns. The Yoruba are the largest ethnic group in West Africa right now (OTL and ATL), and make up most of the population in Oyo. There's a good reason it has traditionally been called Yorubaland. Also, the Igbo are to the east of Oyo in Benin, and the Hausa are far north of Oyo. Only the Akan and the Mandinka are in my lands, and their far smaller than the Yoruba (as they have been historically).
 * 4) I don't think I traded for gunpowder yet. Where did you read that? If anything, all I asked from Feud were armour, weapons, and missionaries.
 * One question: What happen to tiny oyo-man ship when big venetian trade lords decide they no like oyo-man trade monopoly in the western coast of Africa? Kunarian TALK 22:49, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter- there were still THOUSANDS of ethnic groups. The kingdoms were caused by the falls- because the ethnic groups previously subjugated rebelled and broke off!

Exactly. Large, and possessing a single langauge and group. You're large, but have lands of 4 tribes. Not one. Each has a different language. Yes, the Yoruba outnumber them- but not enough to actually subjugate them.

Trading with Castille and actually having an agreement with them are two different things. Yeah, and that still applies. The Muslims nations are more advanced than you, they still control all the land trade routes, and the Oyo don't have the technology to enforce hegemony on them, certainly not over Mali- which, please note, is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than you. As for the sea, please. Canoes? Over open sea? I think not.
 * Yes, they did- but they never formalized anything. Mansa Musa, by the way, was a MALIAN king, not one of the Oyo. He was a Northern African Muslim power with basically the same technology as many of them- no gunpowder, but steel and etc. Which the Oyo did NOT possess OTL, and there is no conceivable reason for that to change. Note that I said Steel, NOT iron. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference there- if you do some research, you'll see why. Iron is much softer and weaker than steel.
 * No, you cannot enforce those land based trade routes. You're the dominant power in OTL Nigeria and Benin. You do not have the power to punch through the lands of the Mali empire, which, FYI, is much stronger than your little titch empire. And I said STEEL, not Iron. SIGNIFICANT difference. The Spanish won in the Americas because they had STEEL. The Incan and Aztecs had other metals. Steel was much stronger.
 * 1) Actually, no. At this point in history, most European nations only control their own ethnicities. That changed over the next few hundred years, after they new technologies of the time made it easier to move information and people. Your lands DO infringe on some of Igbo territories, and while you outnumber the other three, it's not enough of a majority to subjugate them. You WILL lose those lands, if the mods ever get their act together.
 * 2) My bad. I was wrong there- I misread your post- missed the non-gunpowder part.

Why the honest fuck would they convert? They have NO reason! It's like Britain suddenly deciding to convert to Islam in the 12th century. Contrary to what you seem to think, most of the powers in your region are either Muslim or Animist.

22:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

You continue to say thousands as if there were thousands when there were not. These thousands of ethnic groups only popped up during the 17th and 18th centuries after the African empires broke up and isolation took effect. So hundreds in the 1400s is the correct estimate, but nowhere near thousands. And even so, the Yoruba still outnumber them hundreds to one. Most of the population as I already told you, resided in West Africa, which was the most urbanized region in Africa, period. Those numerous tribes resided int he Central African interior where isolation broke up the populations into tiny groups, which broke up further as new settlements were established. So the ethnic group issues would only persist in Central Africa, not the develop regions of West Africa.

On Castille: The Muslims are on the same tier as Oyo, if not below. The Oyo and Benin empires were considerably more advanced that Mali, Mali only considered the most advanced as there is more information on them. However, recent discoveries have shown that the African empires south of Mali were more advanced than previously thought, and possessed better city building skills than even the Mali. And if you read my post on the African war canoes, in spite of their name, they were as big and deep as a Viking longship, which we all know sailed over over water. Also, I made very clear that the vessels stuck to the coast, where they would be safe. I also stated that they landed regularly to forage for supplies. Go back a few paragraphs and you'll see that very statement.
 * 1) Regardless, the Mali were black, just like the Oyo. So the point is moot, as the Castillians still traded with the man regardless of his ethnicity. Even if the Castillians were racist (a phenomenon that only emerged during colonization and their history with the Moors), you can't control what two players do as the action, ethnicities aside, is plausible in spite of your opposition to it. And Oyo and Mali are right next to each other, they share a border. Oyo and Benin were in fact more advanced than Mali in that they utilized more technologies than Mali, and had more cities (Mali only had three large cities as opposed to the dozens that existed in Oyo and Benin). And I believe iron and steel is where I got mixed up. The West Africans did have steel swords, as evidenced by the Akan akrafene sword, which was made of steel.
 * 2) You have no idea what I'm capable of, and the idea you can dictate what i can and can't is is hilarious. Mali is less populous than all of Oyo, and nowhere near as urbanized or militarized as Oyo. OTL, Oyo could mobilized 180,000-250,000 men. Mali could only mobilize 100,000 men. Mali wouldn't be able to make a dent into West Africa. And my empire is much larger than Mali on the map, do in no small part to the fact that the mapmakers didn't expand Oyo to its proper size (as has been the case with many other players' nations).
 * 3) Your statement on the size of the Yoruba is once against incorrect. Though I control three ethnic groups, the Yoruba expanded into land that neither the Akan nor the Mandinka resided in. The latter two groups lived in the interior where food and water were more accessible given their technologies, but the Yoruba and the Igbo resided on the coast as they had greater knowledge and technology needed to harness the ocean's foods and resources. Remember, the Yoruba and the Igbo lived along the rivers where they built their cities. The Akan and the Mandinka resided in the interior far from rivers and the ocean, and had no interest in it. I expanded along the coastline for a reason Guns. So I do outnumber the other tribes significantly given the spread of the populations of the time. Fun fact, Mali is the Mandinka homeland, meaning I have yet to expand considerably into their lands yet.
 * 4) Understood.

Ethiopia had no reason to convert either. But they did. Men came in and the preached to the people. The people liked what they heard, and converted, like the Ethiopians did. So your point once again is moot. And have you ever thought for a moment that Oyo wants to be set apart from the other nations around them? Your replacing plausibility with your own feelings of what you think is right or wrong. The missionaries can reach Oyo, and the Oyo can choose if they want to convert. I made sure that they did, like the Ethiopians did OTL. For every example you give, there is an OTL example that proves it wrong.

Wow, wrong on so many counts. 00:17, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Hundreds or thousands, the Yoruba did not outnumber the Igbo and the others enough to subjugate them. I don't know where you got your statistics from- mine say that the Yoruba were the most populous- but outnumbered the Igbo only about 4:3, and the Madinka 2:1.
 * 2) Mali WAS stronger- that's not even a question. Larger population, similar technology- less centralized, but FAR richer. I have NO CLUE where you are getting your stats from, but they are totally incorrect.
 * 3) Even if they were not they would still be strong enough that you CANNOT force a land route through their territory OR dominate it. And as for sea routes, the opposing navies- like that of Venice- are way more advanced. Again; CANOES.
 * 4) I don't know what you mean here- I said that some of your land had a Igbo, Madinka, and Akan ethnicites. Then I said that you could not subjugate them.
 * 5) Mali isn't the Madinka homeland in 1400. It was AFTER they caused the FALL of the Mali Empire- in some 150 years- that they moved into that area. Currently, they are much closer to you (not directly on your lands but certainly a sizable portion of their population).
 * 6) Far above, actually. Please note again- Bonoman, Oyo, Axum, Songhai- they all fell OTL for ONE reason. The Muslims. Until the 1800s, when the Europeans came in- your lands were Muslim. Same shit's happening ATL, without some serious cataclysm, because like or not they ARE stronger than you overall.
 * 7) Which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT reason why converting to Catholicism is stupid!
 * 8) No missionaries from Europe yet.
 * 9) The more powerful Muslims are on your borders and ARE trying to convert you.
 * 10) Ethiopia was different- they converted under Axum, before the foundation of Islam. It spread south via the Byzantines. There are NO major Christian, forget Catholic, powers near Oyo- THERE ARE Muslim ones.
 * 11) Basically, my point is, if you open your nation to Islam more, your nation is perfectly plausible- so far, eventually, with your expansion, the other tribes will revolt. But a Catholic nation in West Africa?
 * 12) Annoys the Muslims.
 * 13) Has no reason to occur.
 * 14) And makes it impossible to have a proper land trade route North.

Let's begin.
 * 1) Historically, the Yoruba were the largest, and the Igbo were contained within the area of Benin, which is OTL Igboland. ATL, the Yoruba expanded farther west to expand their settlements, while the NPC Igbo remained in their location. So ATL-wise, the Yoruba are bigger than the Igbo. Plus, Oyo is located on the western end of Igboland, meaning that there are either a handful or no Igbo in my lands, making them a minority if that. As for the Mandinka, they moved further south OTL after the fall of Mali, since at the time, the region wasn't heavily settled. However, a map by the Brits only goes to prove that the Mandinka reside in the fringes of my empire, and are thus a minority. Your using modern statistics which have no bearing on a time before the disruption of the demographics of the time.
 * 2) I believe I told you in chat that I was wrong. You were there but you didn't respond. But Mali got its gold from southern West Africa, where it was mined. The West Africans sold the gold to Mali, who exchanged it salt. From there, the gold went north to Europe and the Middle East. So in reality, all Mali has too its name is salt (still very valuable), but I control the flow of gold.
 * 3) You completely ignored my earier points. I stopped building canoes when I started building larger (read, NON-EUROPEAN) ships with sails. I have canoes (war canoes at that) which are still larger than those used by Mali's river canoes. The may be canoes, but for the third time, they were (OTL and ATL) as big and as deep as longships. Again; LONGSHIPS.
 * 4) I don't even know what is going on, but all I can say is that this map shows that only the Akan lay in my way. And unlike the unified Oyo, the Akan were divided into numerous petty kingdoms, and aren't even shown on the map because none formed a major empire with the exception of inland Bonoman, and the recent Ashanti Empire. The Ashanti only gained a coastline after defeating the petty kingdom of Denkyira, which itself was not that powerful. So I have Akan in my lands, but they aren't a major threat. If they did arise, then they'd be shut down swiftly.
 * 5) Once again I would direct you to the map I brought up. They moved south only after Mali's fall (as you and I already mentioned), but that only proves my point that the Mandinka aren't the numerous in my lands since most of them still reside within Mali, which is still intact.
 * 6) Oyo fell because the neighboring Nupe (fellow Yoruba) took over the kingdom. Bonoman fell because the Ashanti rose in their place and took over. Axum fell because Queen Yodit (Jewish) invaded and cut Axum off from the world leading to a dark age (she is directly responsible for Ethiopia's backwardness). Songhai fell because Morocco sought to control the lucrutive gold trade, and Songhai was already Muslim.
 * 7) I already made the decision to convert to Islam since its safer and closer to Oyo. Plus, Oyo was never converted by the Muslims, nor did they ever try even though Oyo was close to Mali. This was something I already explained two weeks ago, and which the French even recorded in the 1600s when the visited the universities of Oyo-Ile. They stated only a handful Muslims were in Oyo, and they only served to teach the people algebra, nothing more.
 * 8) Converting to Islam will only aid my nation (henceforth my late and admitted needed decision). It'll permit me to justify my expansion to sate the mods, and allow me to expand violently if needed.

Even if you think converting to Christianity is possible, which it may barely be, the fact that Oyo would even want to is implausible and ASB. Why would a nation dominated by another religion, and surrounded by that religion, convert to another, other then to distinguish themselves but inadvertently make their lives harder. You stated that states like Mali traded with Castile for years, and notice how Mali never converted to Christianity during their brief encounters. Your contact is even less, having just created a sea route to Castile, so you would have very little reason to convert to Christianity. It may be possible, but it's also implausible and a bad move as a player anyway. Mscoree (talk) 01:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo had several religions, none of them very dominant. In fact, the Yoruba religion was highly diverse, and as Wikipedia put it plainly, had no one founder. People worshipped as they went, and who they worshipped was their own deal. The belief varied from region to region, and thus, no one party dominated the other. Mali never converted because it was already Muslim. Where do you ever read of a Muslim nation converting to Christianity? Nowhere. Only animist nations, such as Oyo, ever did. In any case, I've made the decision to convert to Islam for plausibility's sake. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

I read these rants in PMII, so I really don't want to read them again. Two things:

1. No one should even be thinking of new world exploration right now, save the Chinese Voyage spinoff. Not the Malmuks, not the Africans. No one. Last time I checked, the rules only allow for OTL events/discoveries to happen at max 5 years prior to OTL.

2. If this is going to cause problems, the mods can do do new world exploration just like nuclear weapons and space ships - they pick the nations. Which would, frankly, work better and more smoothly.

Cour *talk* 20:14, March 10, 2014 (UTC) 21:20, March 10, 2014 (UTC) Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:53, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) The Yoruba did outnumber the other tribes but, again, not so significantly that a general uprising could be contained. You've got maybe 75% of the population (my other stats were for the total population, this is just the Oyo population itself) in the Yoruba- 25% is still a sizable and significantly destabilzing minority. What's more, the Madinka moved NORTH after the fall of Mali- they caused it, by encroaching on Malian territory. But that was 150 years after the POD- hasn't happened yet. As of the 1450s, the Madinka are square bang on your territory.
 * 2) My bad there- didn't see that.
 * 3) STILL not a match for the traders of Venice or England, who made such switches hundreds of years ago. So regardless, your ships are slower and would lose in an actual fight. Don't piss off the English.
 * No, because a combined general uprising is beyond the power of any pre-modern government to contain. Before we had the ability to kill hundreds of people in a few minutes, it would be impossible for a revolt of even 5% of the population to be properly contained.
 * 1) All of those nations were weakened before the actual fall due to Islam. The Oyo are the only ones where the fall, too, was not directly orchestrated by the Muslims. The Songhai were NOT Muslim- that was the Mali, which came after them- and the Morrocans who attacked were MUSLIMS, who had been encroaching on their territory for some time. Axum fell after a long series of border wars with the Muslims from Arabia. Bonoman was weak from wars the Muslims first.
 * No, they moved NORTH after the fall of the Mali- the Mali fell OTL due to the raids from the Madinka moving north!
 * 1) Yeah, education in Africa was historically a lot better than it is currently.
 * 2) Good.
 * 1) At this time, most of the region (once again it was called Yorubaland for a reason) was unsettled, or setted by the Yoruba. The Mandinka live farther to the northwest, and are nowhere near my lands with the exception of my small border with Mali. And the Mali ARE Mandinka. Most of their population was Mandinka, and only the lands to the southwest of Mali are Mandinka. Everything south of them is Akan (OTL Ghana).
 * 2) Understood.
 * 3) I never said they were the same strength as European ships. And once again, you don't know what my ships are capable of, and are going solely on personal opinion rather than fact. I never published any details of the ships, so you have nothing to compare my ships to other than the fact that they are the same size as carracks and galleons. And speed is entirely dependent on size and the number of sails. As for England, their navy was garbage in the 1450s, and wasn't a match to anyone OTL. In fact, the English only began to build better ships in thr 1500s, but even then they were constained purely due to the fact they were destitute as a nation because Europe isolated them after Henry VIII split from the Catholic Church. Everyone hated them. Even in ATL, England's navy is still no match for any of the other nations despite the growth. Too be honest, both Oyo and England are on the same level navy-wise purely because the Castillians burned down the English navy before the game's start, forcing the English to start from the beginning, long before they established a true shipbuilding industry (which only emerged under Henry VIII and Elizabeth I).
 * 4) There have been countless uprisings throughout medieval history, and none of them turned out well for the peasents. The last man to stand up to the English king was actually killed when he and the King of England came close to "negotiate" the terms for peace. Even the Hussites who put up a good fight were eventually massacured to a man by the Germans and the Austrians. There has never (as for as I know) been a successful uprising by the serfs in any medieval nation, with the first such to succede taking place in France. In 1783. Containing a rebellion, especially when I have most of the population on my side, is well within my means.
 * 5) Bonoman was never attacked by the Muslims. Ever. It was destroyed by the Ashanti, who themselves weren't even Muslim. Oyo was destroyed by a fellow Yoruba kingdom which wasn't Muslim, and that nation in turn was destroyed by the British, not the Muslims. Like I said before, the Muslims never advanced south of Sokoto, which was the capital of the Sokoto Caliphate, and itself located in northern Nigeria, removed from the animist nations of southern Nigeria. On Songhai, it was indeed Muslim. Askia the Great was a Muslim, and though he didn't force his people to convert to Islam, he did enforce its protection in Songhai. The upper classes of Songhai were Muslims, while a considerable portion of the lower classes stuck to their traditional beliefs. But for the most part, Songhai was a Muslim nation. In fact, the second sentence in Songhai's Wikipedia page states, and I quote: "From the mid-15th to the late 16th century, Songhai was one of the largest Islamic empires in history."
 * 6) I'm not trying to be rude Guns, but I don't know where your getting your information from. Mali didn't collapse from Mandinka raids north, as its population was Mandinka. The British maps of the region in the 1800s that I showed not to long ago even call the land of Mali "Mandingo", showing that it was the Mandinka homeland. Mali collapsed because the last Emperor of Mali had three sons who fought amoungst themselves, and allowed the city of Gao (the capital of Songhai) to break away, and eventually invade and conquer Mali as it descended into civil war. Mali fell from the inside, not from the outside.
 * 7) True that.
 * 8) I suppose so.
 * I agree, I even suggested a method of doing such things, which was simple. However it was not taken onboard in any manner. Kunarian TALK 20:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't ranting, stating my defense. As for new world exploration, I don't think that was the goal of anyone until 1500. And finally, the latter suggestion would be rather unfair to the players who have spent their time developing their navies for that purpose. For instance, the mods would most likely select Collie because his nation is Portugal (and a fellow mod), even though Collie hasn't focused on developing his navy. On the other hand, Feud would probably be passed over even though making his navy a first-class force was his goal. I believe that the mods should stay out of the matter of who discovers what, since most explorations were by mistake, and many nations are better placed to find these new lands as opposed to the ones the mods may pick (most of whom I have a strong feeling would be European like the last game). Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:09, March 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * One by one.
 * One by one.


 * There's a reason that some nations are more likely to discover the new world than others. And mod intervention would help prevent everyone from discovering and colonizing within a year or two of each other. It goes unspoken that this would lead to chaos and a 'Scramble for America' (which would no doubt be riddled with ASB claims). - Guns 02:49, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Viva, you are not only advocating ASB on this talk page, again, but are making an ass of yourself. Cut it out. Lordganon (talk) 10:32, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't start the argument so I don't know why your pinning this on me, plus, let's just be honest here, your claim of ASB is tenious at best. All I'm advocating is the actual usage of existing edvidance to back my claims. I don't see whats wrong with that. And I don't know why you and the others fear looking at the links which say your wrong (seriously Guns just said Songhai wasn't Muslim, when the very second sentence of its Wikipedia page says it was one of the largest ISLAMIC empires in history). Don't call it ASB unless you have proof its ASB. Everything I've said is backed by proof. Most of what Guns said I've just disproved. I've proven everything I've said is both plausible and accurate. You have not. And please tell me LG, since your so intelligent (not an insult), why is it when the others provide information with no sources and routinuely proven they are wrong (as Guns just did), called plausible and creditable, but when I provide sources, and regularly research the regions I'm working in, I'm called ASB and making an a** out of myself? I mean, what are you guys afraid of? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:45, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I quoted multiple sources, actually, and you disproved nothing.

Unfortunately, a large part of my argument was somehow deleted?

See where it says " One by one."?That was me, actually, not LG.

I had a bunch of sources in there too, but I can't undo that without deleting his post, so...

About the Songhai- meant Ghana. My bad there. Still in the original Malian territory, so it makes no difference. Their fall WAS caused by Muslims. Not even a question...

Actually, no. Very little you said was plausible OR accurate.

And it's "you're", not "your".

We're afraid of you saying idiotic things like that. We've all quoted a number of sources, no one else agrees with you- generally, in this situation, it means that you're wrong. Stop with the Africawank.

21:38, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, if your post was accidently deleted, just go into the page history, open that edition of the page, and copy it back to where it was I can do it for you if you want. Mscoree (talk) 22:16, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it looks like it might still be there, although you signed with five tildes instead of four. Mscoree (talk) 22:21, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

What sources did you use? All of the sources I used I linked you too. I didn't ask about the One by one thing. I thought it was a troll so I ignored it. I thought you meant in the context that the nations were destroyed by crusading Muslims, but that point is moot now. Everything I said came from a history book, research site, or publication on the continent, all from people who study Africa for a living. So what I said was plausible and accurate, unless you can prove otherwise. I don't care about grammar right now, so the point is moot. The people who don't agree with me are the same ones who say Songhai wasn't Muslim (even though it was), or that there were 3,000 tribes in Africa in the 1400s (even though there weren't as those were formed in the 1600s). So in the situation, the guy who study's Africa routinuely and actually links his sources is generally correct, unless of course, you can prove otherwise. I'll be an Africawank because I can prove said wank is plausible. You cannot. I mean, you said Mali wasn't Mandinka even though from its own medieval constitution, the people referred to themselves as the Mande. They were Mandinka. When you make such a massive assertion that a major empire wasn't what it says it was, even though historians say they were, how on earth can you tell me anything about a continent you just proved you know nothing about? That, Guns, was idiotic, far from anything I've said thus far. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:02, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Overall, Viva, you haven't proven Guns wrong on anything - more or less the opposite is true, actually. Your bias on the matter is so incredibly obvious that it disturbs me. And here I thought you had gotten better about it. Guess not.

You're trying to get a "wank" in without plausibility. ASB.

And, you're still acting like an ass here. Cut it out. Final warning.

Lordganon (talk) 12:13, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

I Have a Question
If I quit as the Ashikaga state can I come back and pick a new nation to play as in pm3 - Scarlet (aka Shadow)

Umm... not really. Cour *talk* 20:05, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Venetian Empire
Total: 91
 * Location: 10
 * 10 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 10 (Aegina) + 10 (Athens) + 10 (Candia) + 10 (Corfu) + 10 (Kaffa) + 10 (Ragusa) = 80/8 = 10
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 1 (Attackers) + 1 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 28
 * 4 (Venice, L) + 4 (Epirus, L) + 3 (Aegina, LV) + 3 (Athens, LV) + 3 (Candia, LV) + 3 (Corfu, LV) + 3 (Kaffa, LV) + 3 (Ragusa, LV) + 1 (Naxos, SV) + 1 (Negroponte, SV) = 28
 * Military Development: 9
 * 16 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 8 (Aegina) + 8 (Athens) + 0 (Candia) + 20 (Corfu) + 8 (Kaffa) + 8 (Ragusa) = 88/10 = 8.8 = ~9
 * Economic Development: 10
 * 6 (Venice) + 12 (Epirus) + 14 (Aegina) + 14 (Athens) + 12 (Candia) + 2 (Corfu) + 14 (Kaffa) + 12 (Ragusa) = 74/10 = 7.4 = ~7 +3 (Venice, Kaffa) = 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 0 (Defenders only)
 * 5 (Ragusa)
 * Motive: 13
 * 3 (Economic) + 5 (Democratic Support) + 5 (High Morale) = 13
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit count: 1632
 * UTC: 10:26 = 1*2*6 = 12
 * Total: 1632/12*pi (3.14159265359) = 427.25660088824
 * Nation Age: -1
 * -15 (Venice, Antique) + 0 (Epirus, Maturing) + 5 (Aegina, Mature) + 0 (Athens, Maturing) + -5 (Candia, Young) + 5 (Corfu, Mature) + 0 (Kaffa, Maturing) + 5 (Ragusa, Mature) = -5/8 = -0.625 = ~-1
 * Population: 7
 * 7 (7 digits) = 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -6
 * -6 (6 vassals)

Morocco
Total: 59 x 1.25 = 73.75
 * Location: 25
 * 25 (Morocco) = 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 2 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 4
 * 4 (Morocco, L) = 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/88 = 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/74 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * 5 (Morocco)
 * Motive: -7
 * 8 (Defend, not cripple) + -10 (Government not supported) + -5 (Low morale) = -7
 * Chance: 6
 * Nation Age: 5
 * 5 (Morocco, Mature) = 5
 * Population: 9
 * 7 (7 digits) + 2 (larger by less than 5) = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
Venetian Victory


 * ((91/(73.75+91))*2)-1 = 0.1047040971168437
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*1)) = 0.0523520485584219 = 5% (one year)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.0785280728376328 = 8% (two years)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 0.0872534142640364 = 9% (three years)

Discussion
DO NOT EDIT. I or an agreed mod shall edit the algorithm. Please comment if you wish to be added in some form. Kunarian TALK 12:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Im sure you have more population Quashi (talk) 16:41, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know I only have around 2 and a half million over my whole empire, as my page says. The Moroccans were powerful and able to resist Castile before they entered a period of civil unrest (they are in it now, as with OTL) and if Castile has around 4,500,000 just in Castile and they were able to resist that for a while then surely Morocco has something close to that. I'm pretty sure that they have more in simple terms. Kunarian TALK 17:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Alteration to Expansion Rates
Hey, I wanted to suggest the alteration of the expansion rules, to all you to take territory in the black through military campaigns, you know, like in OTL. I don't recall reading anywhere where nations peacefully expanded into unknown lands by tiny amounts, taking hundreds of years to grow to the size of Texas. That just doesn't make any sense. Most of the large empire in history expanded to conquests (like Russia, the Mongols, Rome, China, United States, Ethiopia, Egypt, so on and so on), and did so in short amounts of time. You could slap a greater penalty onto the expansion rates, such as -2 or -3 for every armed expansion. The expansion rate would be double or triple that of the peaceful expansion, but you'd suffer more issues since you just conquered a chunk of some tribe's land. Just a thought. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:50, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the expansion stuff is not that easily solved. We have to take into account the power of the nation doing the expansion, the population of the land being expanded into, and what kind of land it is. For example, if a very powerful nation expands into a desert with a zero population and owned all the habitable land around it (ex: Australia) it would be fairly easy to take the remainder in a short period of time. However, if a mediocre nation with little to no present influence in the area attempted to do the same, it would be harder.

18:27, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Understandable. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:04, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Viva, when the Tsardom of Russia was established they expanded an average of 35,000 square kilometers per year into Siberia. Also, I calculated how many square kilometers one pixel on the map is equivalent to, it's ~72 square kilometers. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Ottoman-Georgian Land Transfer
Chris - as I couldn't find a user page for you, I'll just post a map of the "land corridor" I'm asking for here. The area I'd like to purchase is in burnt orange; it roughly corresponds to the area east of Lake Van. I imagine the area is sparsely populated at this point in time, but I would of course be willing to repatriate any Turks in the corridor to the western side of the border line at my own expense, and would grant your merchants trade access through the corridor. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:52, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes that looks fair (after all, the Empire probably wouldn't have won if it wasn't for the Georgians in the coalition; we owe you something). Agreed. ChrisL123 (talk) 23:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Spread of movable type printing
Okay I think we need to manage this carefully, especially as in PM3 there seems to be a habit of everyone suddenly getting all the technology.

In OTL, the spread of Movable type printing was SLOW. I mean so slow that by 1890, it still wasn't present in Brazil, most of Africa, a lot of Asia and hadn't even spread to most of the Balkans or Ukraine, Belarus and such.

Considering how slowly it spreads, the country of origin ( which it looks like there might be two atm, both Venice and Pskov, fun things happen ) would have a monopoly for about 20 years as it spreads around their nation (NOT THEIR VASSALS).


 * Was invented in Mainz, followed by another independent design in Venice. Mscoree (talk)
 * ummm...are you guys forgetting somebody here? Pskov invented the press aswell...-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 16:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * No you didn't. It's been retconned, as I've said many times. Mscoree (talk) 18:11, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was told that Hesse was getting the Printing Press. Blocky858 (talk) 20:50, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

After the 20 year start-up period, just like in OTL, it'd spread to about 3 nations adjascent to the country of origin (again not to their vassals), these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated neighbours too. During this time the country of origin can spread the technology to its vassals that share a land border with it.

After this it would take about 10 more years to spread to 6 more nations, these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated nations within the trade range of the current holders of the technology. During this period the country of origin can spread it to all their vassals and the first takers can spread it to their vassals that share a land border with them.

Then another 10 years later, it spreads again. Then there's a period of stagnation in the spread. And so on and so forth.

I'll make a table because I really think this needs to be managed carefully so we can enjoy the realism and constraints that do actually come with such developing technologies.

Keep in mind the spread might not be to player nations, but to relavently advanced nations

I really suggest we adopt this or we'll miss out on the interesting situations that arise out of such constraints rather than having every nation doing everything itself. This will also encourage players to work together to make interesting history.

Of course the decision upon where printing spread should happen upon reaching the next stage, because players may be able to change their policies to get the technology. We should not decide eveyrthing for all the stages immediately as that removes part of the fun. Kunarian TALK 10:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Kunarian that technology needs to be regulated to some degree. Maybe not just for printing presses, but for all major technologies. I think this system might be more of a guideline then a set-in-stone system, regulated by the moderators for implausibility, but it is definitely a start. Mscoree (talk) 19:59, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, however this system is simple and makes life easy without being annoyingly fiddly. Kunarian TALK 20:04, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I also think this would be a great idea, however in a map game, there is a fine line between overregulating and having too many rules, and having too few rules on this. When it comes to technologies, discoveries, etc, I think there should be a system of this sort where it is simple and easy to work with, but prevents loads of ASBdom. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * Exactly, this doesn't have a million special rules or a group of requirements that everyone will work towards (breaking the RP and making the game more about min-maxing). It is just a case of regulating the spread of technology so that it spreads in a similar fashion to how it did in real life, rather than the rather predictable "1440: one nation has a printing press, 1450: every nation on earth has one!" that Principia Moderni can sometimes fall ill to. Kunarian TALK 21:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

My main problem is with the inital spread. You see, what if it is a great mighty nations surrounded by a bunch of nations of peasants and weak economies? I think it should spread to major trade partners and powerful nations after leaving the mother nation. Trade can take things really far, y'know?

21:30, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Scraw, althought the above model makes sense in general. For Mainz for example, they are surrounded by small states of the Holy Roman Empire, so it would take decades for the printing press to leave central Germany. In this specific case you'd think it might spread to Austria, given that Mainz is one of their biggest allies and nearly a vassal at this point, or at least to some of the major states of Germany. I think we should use this model, but also consider spreading the invention manually through moderator events at times, following any OTL trends. Mscoree (talk) 22:43, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Um, sorry, but the The printing press didn't spread slowly, it was only limited by the travelling technology of the time. So I don't think this idea makes much sense, Fed (talk) 23:08, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * So it spread slowly. As it was limited by the travelling technology of the time. So it makes perfect sense. Kunarian TALK 23:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also can I just say that if you don't have any system in place soon, then it'll become unmanageable. If you won't accept a perfectly logical and reasonable system then at least present one of your own. Kunarian TALK 23:14, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * A system can still be useful. Perhaps this GIF will help us adjust it. Mscoree (talk) 23:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I used the gif to make it. This is the closest you can get to it. Kunarian TALK 06:38, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

You're giving 15 HRE states and Austria a press by 1500, while IOTL all of the capitals of Western Europe had aress by this time. Fed (talk) 12:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm getting the feeling you haven't read any of this. If we look at the two origins that are appearing ATL (from Mainz and Venice) then we end up with something (assuming nothing changes in game, which it will almost certainly) like this:
 * 1440: Mainz, Venice
 * 1460: Mainz, Venice (and adjacent vassals), Austria, Byzantine Empire, Milan
 * 1470: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and adjacent vassals), Byzantine Empire (and adjacent vassals), Milan (and adjacent vassals), Hungary, Italy, Castile, England, UNC, Brabrant-Holland
 * 1480: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and adjacent vassals), Italy (and adjacent vassals), Castile (and adjacent vassals), England (and adjacent vassals), UNC (and adjacent vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and adjacent vassals), Bavaria, Prussia, Aragon, Portugal, France, Provence
 * 1490: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and adjacent vassals), Prussia (and adjacent vassals), Aragon (and adjacent vassals), Portugal (and adjacent vassals), France (and adjacent vassals), Provence (and adjacent vassals)
 * 1500: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and vassals), Prussia (and vassals), Aragon (and vassals), Portugal (and vassals), France (and vassals), Provence (and vassals)
 * If I remember Fed, England, Castile, France and the UNC aren't 15 HRE states, so there goes that theory of yours. AND LOOK! Practically all of Western Europe has printing presses, shock. and. horror. It spreads not to the person next to them like some dead snail being kicked along as slowly as possible like you suggest, but along logical lines of trade and vassalage. Obviously the mods should make minor changes (such as filling in all the minor states that are unconnected to players so that they get them) but shouldn't be throwing the printing press around as they see fit nor planning a very long OTL based line of nations that shall and shall not get it when and where.


 * Further the spread is gradual and easy to track. Compared to what a adhoc on the go player spread will be, which is everyone has one in their back garden before the end of the year. And a completed mod iron fisted direction destroys player creativity and means that we might as well not play and just go get out a game of Risk, because removing player influence on the soft side of the game (technology and culture) turns this into a war game only with mods telling you what you'll be doing outside of wars. I can play a war game anytime, and I won't waste time on a war game online where I might get f'd over because OTL or a mod says so. Kunarian TALK 12:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I sound a bit sharp but I get a bit fed up when I present a system that does exactly what OTL does and then someone doesn't read or look at what I've done and blurts out falacies. That sort of thing really rubs me up the wrong way. Kunarian TALK 13:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now adjusted as Fed recommended, I think this system will work very well and be very plausible. We can try out it out on the printing press and see how it goes. Mscoree (talk) 18:15, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

No need to be rude. I did a mistake, so sorry, Your Almighty Highness. May I apologise or are you preparing the execution? Fed (talk) 18:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look I'm sorry I don't want to have an issue, I just got riled up and didn't control myself. Kunarian TALK 22:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You should check this out, especially since it shows which areas already had the printing press by 1500.

Oyo (Attacker)
Total: 100*125
 * Location: +20
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Nations: Oyo (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +16
 * Economic Development: +14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +16 (+7 +4 +5)
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit count: 4,755
 * UTC: 2*2*1*2 = 8
 * Total: 4755/8*pi = 1867.284133477556
 * Nation Age: 0 (1400)
 * Population: +9 (5,710,442)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Benin (Defender)
Total: 63
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Benin (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +3
 * Economic Development: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: +2
 * Nation Age: 0 (1180)
 * Population: +7 (2,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * (125/(63+125)*2)-1 = 0.3297872340425532
 * (32.9)*(1-1/(2*7)) = 30.55%

Oyo can claim 30.55% of Benin.

Georgian-Jochid Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 69
 * Location: 17
 * 20 (Georgia) + 20 (Armenia) + 15 (Gordyene) + 15 (Adiabene) + 15 (Ardalan) + 15 (Golden Horde) = 100/6 = 16.667 ~= 17
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * 1 (attacking) + 2 (central coordination) + 2 (high ground)
 * Nations: 4 (Georgia, L) + 3 (Armenia, LV) + 3 (Gordyene, LV) + 3 (Adiabene, LV) + 3 (Ardalan, LV) + 4 (Golden Horde, L) + 1 (Adyghea, SV) = 21/4 = 5.25 ~= 5
 * Military Development: 62/5 = 12.4 ~= 12
 * 12 (Georgia) + 14 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 6 (Jochid Ulus) = 62
 * Economic Development: 72/5 = 14.4 ~= 14
 * 10 (Georgia) + 10 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 16 (Jochid Ulus) + 6 (Mamluk aid per Treaty of Adana) = 72
 * Expansion: -15 (Georgia: 1426, 1427, 1433, 1434; Jochid Ulus: 11 turns over past 15 years)
 * Infrastructure: 0 (defender only)
 * Motive: 7 (economic + non-democratic governments supported by people)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.0 6 0
 * Nation Age: -2
 * 0 (Georgia: maturing nation, 1412) + 0 (Armenia: maturing nation, 1412) - 5 (Gordyene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Adiabene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Ardalan: young nation, 1427) + 5 (Jochid Ulus: mature nation, 1440s) = -10/6 = 1.667 ~= 2
 * Population: 17 (7 digits + 10 for 5x superiority: Georgian coalition has 1.35M, Jochid Ulus should have ~4.6M, Azerbaijan has 1.175M)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2 (Georgia and Armenia - 1426)
 * Vassals and Puppets: -5 (2 vassals and 1 puppet)

Sultanate of Azerbaijan (Defender)
Total: 54
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (central coordination)
 * Nations: 4 (Azerbaijan, L) = 4/21 = 0.2 ~= 0
 * Military Development: 5/62 ~= 0
 * Economic Development: 5/72 ~= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive: 7
 * 8 (defending heartland from non-fatal attack) + 4 (non-democratic government supported by people) - 5 (low troop morale: lower development numbers on all fronts and chance below 1)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.06 0
 * Nation Age: 0 (maturing nation - 1414)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
If my calculations are correct, the Georgian-Jochid Ulus coalition should win the war and can take up to 12.20% of Azerbaijan, depending on the war's duration. Assuming the war takes 3 years, the Georgia-Jochid coalition can take 10.17% of Azerbaijan.
 * ((69/(54+69))*2)-1 = [(69/123)*2]-1 = (.5610 * 2) - 1 = 1.1220 - 1 = .1220 = 12.20%
 * (12.20%)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 12.20% * (1-[1/6]) = 12.20% * (5/6) = 10.17%

Discussion
Mods - I went ahead and constructed the algorithm for my war to give you a starting point. Depending on who else joins the conflict, the numbers here may change. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Adjusted for Jochid Ulus' entry into the war and for provisions of the Treaty of Adana. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:29, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

So, given that my coalition will have fought for 3 years, here's my proposed territory change. The burnt orange portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to Georgia, while the dark yellow portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to the Jochid Ulus. You can count pixels if you're curious - 10.17% of Azerbaijan is 267 pixels, which I've split evenly between myself and the Ulus (and yes, I'm OCD enough that I actually counted pixels). If I can get a mod's approval for this, we can wrap the war up quickly and easily. TankOfMidgets (talk) 17:53, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Castile (Attacker)
Total: 133
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Castile (L), Granada (MV), Cyprus (MV), Austria (L), Luxembourg (M), Brandenburg (M), Bohemia (M), Moravia (M), Venice (L), Aegina (MV), Athens (MV), Candia (MV), Corfu (MV), Kaffa(MV), Ragusa (MV), Naxos (MV), Negroponte (MV) 62/4 = 16
 * Military Development: 116/10 =12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 16
 * Aegina: 8
 * Athens: 8
 * Candia: 0
 * Corfu: 20
 * Kaffa: 8
 * Ragusa: 8
 * Economic Development: 121/10 = 12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 6
 * Aegina: 14
 * Athens: 14
 * Candia: 12
 * Corfu: 2
 * Kaffa: 12
 * Ragusa: 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Castile: 5
 * Granada: 5
 * Cyprus: -5
 * Population: +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Morocco (Defender)
Total: 79
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Morocco (L) = 4, 0
 * Military Development: 10, 0
 * Economic Development: 10, 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 10
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Vassals and Puppets: 1.25

Discussion
'''Somebody check this please?? -Feud'''

You need to add in Venice. Kunarian TALK 06:51, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I will add Venice soon, but just so you know, Feud and I agreed I will be granted the city of Melilla as a Gibraltar-sized port city on the coast of Morocco. Any other acquisitions you wish can be granted. Mscoree (talk) 10:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't because if you look at my earlier war with morocco I conquered it already. Kunarian TALK 12:24, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here's a map of land you can and cannot take from Morocco because of the war I fought with them before this one: Sorry if this causes issues but I won't be giving up any of that land. Kunarian TALK 12:28, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kun we agreed Morocco is mine, and taking away large portions of Morocco which are originally is mine isnt okay. Undercutting my influence in the Area isny okay in the slightest.

Also we didnt take the whole country but Kun i hope you realize that the land near Tangiers i enumerated before that i wanted that land... your seriously making it ridiculously hard for me to take jack shit When ive led 2 out of the three wars against morocco.

I'm not wanting to cause conflict but I declared war prior to this war and took those lands. As of that war they are mine, end of. But I am willing to do is exchange those lands for something of equal worth, I don't want to undercut your influence but I can't give them up for nothing. I won't hold them against you or refuse a reasonable exchange, but I'm not giving up lands that took me three years to take without at least equal compensation. Kunarian TALK 15:54, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ive Resolved to take the nice long segement next to your two areas on the atlantic. I Would be willing to purchase the areas under Tangiers though.
 * Purchase it for what? if soft play such as money was worth anything in the hard aspects of the game I would consent but I need some land in exchange, or assistance in taking land. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind exchanging Melilla for an area of equal size on the coast? Mscoree (talk) 17:47, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I might exchange it for that, it depends on the division of Morocco and the lands you offer. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can pick any area of equal size to replace the one I'm taking, plus some more lands depending on what we obtain now in this third war. Mscoree (talk) 18:06, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, Venice still needs to be added, we could have 20% of the land or more. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Final division, including the lands gained in Venices war, asuming we get 20% or more with the addition of Venice with vassal support. Kunarian TALK 20:26, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Moscow Land Purchase
We offer to purchase this plot of land (Land wanted is in green). We offer 5,000 Zolotnik coins for the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

I agree with your offer, since I do not need that land.  ...  Razor   -  the Razor    01:49, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Feud called this implausible on chat, and I'm inclined to agree. You're not selling half of your nation. Fed (talk) 12:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also 5000 Zolotniks is equivalent in modern worth to about 1,000,000 dollars. That's how much you might buy a very expensive house for. Not half a nation. Kunarian TALK 12:25, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be fair, he's selling an area that I estimate at first glance is probably around 500,000 square miles maximum, for about one dollar per square mile. This area is a sparsely inhabited section of northern Siberia of little to no use at the moment. In OTL the Louisiana Puchase was more than 800,000 square miles, and sold for only three cents per acre (forty two cents in modern dollars roughly), so about nineteen dollars per square mile. Adjusted to 1800's dollars, and factoring in the vast resources and significance in the central united States, as opposed to northern Siberia, I'd say it's not that bad of a deal. Mscoree (talk) 18:04, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Louisiana territory was sold to get rid of a financial burden on the French. It was colonized, then determined it wasn't worth keeping, whereas this is  half  the actual country.
 * But also while Louisiana was colonized to some degree, the area in question is basically just abandoned, aside from maybe a few towns and some natives. Perhaps Razor and Ed can adjust the borders slightly to a more plausible level if there are disagreements. Mscoree (talk) 18:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I knew the Louisiana purchase would be brought up. Louisiana was a colony, with under 10,000 inhabitants of white nature, that was going to be lost one way ornanother in the next ten years, served absolutely no economic or military purpose after the fall of Haiti and was, all in all, useless. IIRC, the territory you're selling holds several cities (Ustyug, Vologda), is relatively populated (today that area holds a few million inhabitants), and it's part of Novgorod's heartland; it's been Novgorodan since Kievian Rus'. Very different from Louisiana. Fed (talk) 18:45, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. To be honest when Ed came to me with this original idea I had no idea he was taking so much, which is why I'd recommend he takes less. As for the concept itself, I think it's fine. Mscoree (talk) 19:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I edited the map so there is less land in the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Also I own Ustyug and Vologda and they both belonged to Muscovy prior to this purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

So is this thing actually happening? Mscoree (talk) 01:34, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

So Moscow is now in Africa? ok. SwankyJ (talk) 23:41, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

No you are looking at the wrong map,here this is the correct map,  ...  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.8em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Razor  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.8em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;"> -  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.4em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">the Razor

Future plans
On a completely unrelated note to everything, I hope I can prove to people in this game that I would be Mod material. I love PM, and would happily mod for the next PM4 (although I would probably not play due to time commitment issues I see in the future combined with being able to be a better unbiased mod), I would have tried to put myself forwards to mod for this if I felt well enough at the time but I didn't.

However on a side note, I would just say that if I ever decide to leave as Venice, I would almost certainly act as an informal mod or put myself forwards to mod because I think that I would be able to do a pretty good job. The effort I put into Venice would go into making mod events and replying to players and I would not want to leave this game (co-operative timeline as I call it) with one less contributer. However i don't think I could do it atm because I'd not have enough time and Venice, being a main nation in history, could cause me problems with accusations of bias. So for the now I'll do Venice only.

I just want to put this out there because to be honest, a statement of intent helps people mull the thoughts over before it happens and so people can be aware of it and assess me before anything does occur. So reply or not, or just read. I'm just speaking my mind. Kunarian TALK 13:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the topic of Kun as mod, I'd have to agree. Kun has quite helpful, friendly, kind, etc. while pointing out implausibility and sharing my goal of making this game balanced between power-gaming and role-playing, not an easy task. The posts he posts as Venice are very detailed and plausible and he shows a great understanding of history at the time. However, I believe this is his first game, and we'd need to wait and see if Kun is truly mod material over the next batch of turns. Mod events are some of my favorite parts of a Map Game, and I believe Kun will excel in that category. If a vote comes out when Kun has been active in-game for longer, I'd definately support him. Macedon_Shield.png<font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!! Rome_Shield.png
 * On a quick fact check, this is my third Principia Moderni nation, I've played Venice in PM1, Prussia in PM2 and Venice again. Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Kunarian is a very helpful and friendly player. he shows initiative by thinking through systems for inventions, and it seems he would be a nice addition. Mscoree (talk) 14:10, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I support Kun as a mod. He's plausible and tries to ensure everyone else is without bias. He uses facts and potential exceptions to adhere to OTL while also making way for the possibility for ATL to take place. I vote for Kun as mod. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:08, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I approve. 9/10 would vote for.

20:40, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think Kun would be a very good mod too, but after today's debate about Morocco I think the mod system should be reorganised in order to avoid any Nova-like cases again.

Unable to post
I will be offline due to an unforeseen commitment, so will be unable to post until at least Easter. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

I may be able to take charge of your nation until that time. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

About A Mod Event I Want To Happen
Can you make a mod event where all the other states of japan attack me and I lose. I want toswitch my nation to Munster in Germany. - Scarlet (A.K.A Shadow)

Timurid Vassalization and what's wrong with it
With both Timurid players, I have noticed a problem with their vassalizations. They are all literally "We influence x for x turns of three". To me, this seems like a very implausible way to vassalize nations left and right. They do not even state what this influence is, so it's entirely possible that the "influence" is unrelated to the "vassalization". But rather than make that the main point, here is my main point. The Timurids, for both players and every turn, have implausibly expanded through vassalizing nations on their borders. They have not built alliances, not gained royal marriages, they do not even had trade rights in any of the nations, yet they are able to sway the Kings and Sultans and Rajas to become their vassals through "influence"? I believe some rules need to be established on vassalizing criteria that is a little more strict than allowing "We influence x for x turns out of x" to pass as plausible vassalization, and to punish those who have been doing this knowing fully well how unfair and implausible it is to players who actively seek to build relations with nations before they attempt to vassalize them. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 00:08, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I do agree, specifics are good. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:26, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I could try and argue with this, but due to recent private events I won't bother with it. I'm just going to say that if we are going to make vassalization actually plausible and fair, we shouldn't take in just the ratio of teritory between the one vassalizing and the one being vassalized. We should also take into consideration the difference in population and the difference in religion and culture. Now I know that this will hurt my plans, but I really do think we should do this in a fair way. Although I do have a question... If this was such a problem why didn't you say anything earlier?

I've tried with earlier talk page posts, and some of the very early vassalizations were fair, but many of the recent ones have not been at all (Some of Nova's too). When I've tried to talk to mods about it on chat without having to make a talk page, all I've gotten before was "Yeah, that's not right" and no follow up. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 12:10, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I see, the problem of mod inactivity is familiar. Although I will try to make my posts more detailed and plausible in order to both make the game fair and to make it more interesting.

That still ignores the fact that the Timurids vassalized most of Northern India in 30 years... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 13:02, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

It took the effing British Empire at least two hundred years to solidify their control over India. And that was the entire flipping subcontinent. We should drive them back to their border. --Yank 22:37, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

France (Attacker)
Total: 65
 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations:France(L),Burgundy (LV),Bourbon (MV), Lorraine (MV), Berry (MV) = 13/4 = 3.25 = +3
 * Military Development: +30/10 = +3
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: -3
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit count: 3909
 * UTC: 6:31 (10)
 * Total: 3909/10*pi (3.14159265359) = 1228.0485
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +28 (16.900.000 - 18.000.000 Pop here Demographics of France 1400-1450)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -4

Tunisia (Defender)
Total: 77 *1.25 = 96.25
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Tunisia (L) = 4
 * Military Development: 10/30 = 0
 * Economic Development: 10/0 = 10
 * Expansion: 5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +8
 * Chance: 8
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7 (A few people told me that tunis had 1 million to 1.5 million so whatdahell lol)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result
The Tunisians can take up to 19.254 of France and Co., presumably along the French coast of the Mediterranean.
 * ((96/(65+96))*2)-1 = 0.19254
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion

 * Only other mods may fix this, However if you are an user and want to point out a mistake please post it in user corrections. STILL NOT FINAL Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

User corrections

 * Anything you may wanna say
 * Well, Tunisia is an NPC, and has not been to war in the past 15 years, so it had 15 years of development. This means (as per the rules) 5 years of Infrastructure, 5 of Mil., and 5 of Econ. I have gone ahead and reflected this in the algo. I also added the *1.25 bonus for Tunisia. Thanks, 06:34, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * So essentially i don't take anything nor the tunisians do (I mean they have a million and a half population in comparision to france near 18 millions it would be stupid or ASB for them to take even the smallest part for longer than a few years). Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)
 * If you had made Burgundy not a leader your score would go up by about twenty points. Mscoree (talk) 03:31, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ashikaga

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 1 (attacker)
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 8/10 = 0
 * Economy: 8/8 = 1
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 654
 * EST time: 9:13=9
 * Chance: 460/12*3.14159268 = 120.4277194
 * Expansion: -6
 * Motive: 3 (economic)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 7 (5 + larger)
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 32*1.25= 40

Hatekeyama

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 0
 * Nations: Hatekeyama (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 10/8 = 1
 * Economy: 8/8 = 1
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Chance: 7
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 13 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack, High Morale)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 5
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 57*1.25 = 71.25

Results
If the war lasts one year (the minimum), Hatekeyama will take 13.9% of the Ashikaga lands.
 * (71/(40+71))*2-1 = 0.27927
 * (0.27927)*(1-1/(2*1))= 0.139

Discussion
Ummm.... I don't even..... how...? But seriously, this algo needs a massive revamp. Here are a few fun facts about what your algo states: Well, jokes aside, I guess I will fix this algo also. 06:54, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hatekeyema has a population between 10 and 99.
 * You have a population between 10,000 and 99,999, but it is also less than 5 times as great as the population of Hatekeyema (10-99)
 * You state that Hatekeyema has not done anything in the past 15 years. Comeone, lets get some scores for infra., mil., and econ. dev.
 * Hatekeyema's location is not where it is being invaded!?! Raise it to 25.
 * A new tactical advantage is +1 for being defender?
 * The thousandths place of 120.4277194 is apparently 2, not 7.
 * 20+1+1+2+9-5-1+10 (37) times 1.25 is equal to 149, not 46.25
 * How does an attacker get an infrastructure bonus, when this is prohibited?
 * How do you have Econ./Mil. scores that high...???? I would love to know, so I can win my next algo!

Mamluks
Total: 64*1.25 = 80
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Mamluks (L), Venice (S), Epirus (S), Roman Empire (S), Aegina (SV), Athens (SV), Candia (SV), Corfu (SV), Kaffa (SV), Naxos (SV), Negroponte (SV), Ragusa (SV)= 18/8 =>1
 * Military Development: 14/10 = 1
 * Economical Development: 17/10 = 1
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 8 (Hegemony, High Morale, Guerilla)
 * Chance: 8
 * Edits: 3311
 * UTC: 11:39 = 13
 * 3311/14*pi (3.14159265359)
 * Total: 742.9866
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 9 (7 digits, larger)
 * Recent Wars: -2

Rebels
Total: 62*1.5 (Bonus given by mod event) 93 = 93*1.25 (No vassals) = 116
 * Location:25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Oman (L +4),  Yemen (L+4) = 8/18 => 0
 * Military Development: 10/14 = 0
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Economical Development: 10/14 = 0
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Infrastructure: 10
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Expansion: -20 (They still expanded, which would drain resources/population, etc.)
 * Motive: 14 (Fighting for survival, Guerilla, Support)
 * Chance:6
 * Total: 742.9866
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6 (6 digits)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -10

Results
(116/(116+80))*2-1 = 18.3%

(18.3)*(1-1/(2*12) = 17.5% if the war lasts for 12 years (Ms told me 10+)

Discussion
Why exactly did you split all the rebelling nations into separate algorithms? They're all fighting together against you. You also need to add recent wars for yourself, as well as several other things. Mscoree (talk) 00:08, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Also you forgot a few rebelling states, and all of which have a x1.5 bonus. Mscoree (talk) 00:11, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

wrong motive bro, theirs is atleast 10 and for yemen and oman their nation score is 4 as both are allies. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

Alright, i tried to correct this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:27, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Collie, I do not think you understand the way this war is being fought. There are 3 different wars going on. One in Nubia (which already ended, the algo. was a bit late in coming). There is one in Yemen, and there is one in Oman. All of these wars are independent of each other. Also, Nubia never declared independence. (Check the mod events, if you'd please.) The worst it can be is in partial disarray, but I have taken care of that. The inclusion of Nubia was done prior to me finding it out they never were truly independent. Come on chat if you care. 07:33, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

You know what, now that I look back, I can see a better picture of events. So, Nubia never declared independence, so we can rule them out. I declared war (well, invaded, because I do not recognize them as independent states, so I did not "declare" war, but am still waging it) the very year that those states rebelled - 1438. This gives them 0 turns for development. As for expansion, Yemen expanded 10 turns of the 15 turns prior to the war, as did Oman. So, that is a -20 on their expansion. 09:05, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

U only have -1 in recent wars? really? Quashi (talk) 17:50, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Just because they expanded under your leadership does not mean that they get a penalty. If anything you get the penalty since you were technically the one expanding, or just not at all.They are all also fighting in one war, not separate. Also -1 for recent wars is way off. Mscoree (talk) 20:12, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Also again they all have a x1.5 bonus. You didn't even include all of them, plus they are NPC's, so they get NPC values, not just zero. This algorith, still requires heavy work. Mscoree (talk) 20:14, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

At this point all you get is 14%.--Yank 22:28, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

And now it's 8%. I doubt it's worth it now.--Yank 23:28, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Plus half the stuff still needs to be added. Mscoree (talk) 01:21, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I finally got around to fixing some of the stuff. May still be some errors, but definitely a lot closer.Mscoree (talk) 03:11, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

There are disputes upon whether either side should have any development. One fair thing to do would be to just have both sides be zero. This algorithm is currently locked until more moderators can view it. Mscoree (talk) 04:13, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

To account for a giant loophole in the NPC rule, the mods have decided to set the rebel scores all at five, which should have been done in a moderator event anyway, according to Rex. Mscoree (talk) 04:31, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Because of both the stubbornness of the mods in dealing with this algo and the unilateral decision to add +5 points to each of the defending nations (including Swahili, which was not invaded, but again, the mods are being stubborn). To be specific, by the mods I mostly mean Ms, but Sine and Fed were also there. Anyhow, by your adding of these +5 development scores, which was approved by three mods in a spontaneous move on chat, the results of the algorithim are irrevocably changed.

When I declared war, I knew that their development scores would be reset to 0, and since no mod event stated that their economies/militaries/infrastructures had increased, I assumed that the only real different would be the *1.5. Furthermore, the declaration of war took place when MP was taking care of my nation, and I went along with the intervention. Since then, and having made an algo to resolve the problem of who won the war, I have gained better understanding of how the mods planned to break up my nation.

So, I apologize for the huge debate on chat. My points were mostly accepted until the mods decided to add the +5s. I feel that this algo is reall improper, for a number of reasons (Expansion, Recent Wars on the attacker side and Development Scores, Expansion, and Motive on defender side), and on top of that, the stubbornness and resistance to initial perceptions, coupled with the decision to add +5 to each Development Score has really made it so that the situation when my nation declared war (1438) is completely different from when I originally declared war.

The decision to declare war was very tactical, based largely on the fact that the defending states (Oman and Yemen) would be fighting separate wars and based on the fact that they would have 0s for their developments, as well as having -10s for expansion each.

I would like to bring up a few issues with the way in which the revolutions in Oman and Yemen took place. Prior to the revolutions, Oman and Yemen had expanded huge amounts. This expansion was made up of settlers from Medinan/Meccan Arabia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Egpyt, and Iraq. These peoples are culturally, religiously, and linguistically the same as the Mamluk Sultanate. As such, I would like to suggest that those states decided not to secede from my empire, and remained, annexed by the Sultanate (the Mamluks get Yemeni expansion and Mesopotamians get Omani expansion).

As a result of this retcon the following actions will take place: I also feel that this retcon is important because many of my previous turns said that I made amazing gains, when this algo (proper or not) states that I clearly lost.
 * In 1438, the Mamluks recognized the independence of the Omani and Yemeni states.
 * I will be able to change the Mamluks posts from 1438 onwards in order to make them more accurate and reflect this retcon.
 * Yemen and Oman will grow friendly with the Sultanate following the decision by the Sultan to allow them to peaceably leave.

TL;DR - A last minute change to "fix a loophole" changed the situation so badly that the war conditions were completely different from when I initiated the war. In order to correct the issues caused by both the stubbornness of mods in correcting the algo and the +5's added by three mods spontaneously on chat over 5 years after the war began, the war should be retconned.

Thanks, 05:51, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Just one last thought, the retcon will also give exactly what would have happened otherwise (I lose Yemen and Oman). So, the retcon merely eliminates the war. 06:03, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

These states definitely fought a war for independence, so removing this algorithm doesn't really make sense. As for stubborness, I'm the one who listened to you for several hours in PM, and afterword I had to go. I am still open to fixing some things if need be. Keep in mind though that you get the penalty for expansion, since you expanded. While independent Oman and Yemen have not expanded. The recent wars may not be correct if we go bck to 1438 and do fifteen years before that, so that can be corrected. As for the fives, that was decided by all the mods, but it can be adjusted if need be. Five is actually less in some cases than what it was before, and from what you told me, was the standard amount. Mscoree (talk) 12:56, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly its not the mods fault you didnt think through a war which regardless you were going to lose.... it seems your hasty actions should not be retconned particularly because youll learn nothing about being overexpansionist unless you actually lose this war. Not to mention youll set a precedent that everyone can request a for retcon a hastily entered war with which you entered with pretty much minimal knowledge of the situation and no consultation on scores, status of the states etc etc. Considering if a player of my caliber had done it mods would have let me burn and die i figure that we shouldnt be coddling you and striking these kinds of deals especially when you gained Oman Implausibly, and attempted to say you did an entire demographical replacement of Nubia in 3 decades ( which is wholly ridiculous) Nothing against you rex but if we let you off were gonna have newer guys begging to be let off left and right cause of their inability to judge wars correctly.

No. Just no. As Feud said allowing you to retching this war would create a precedent where people can charge into a war and undo it when they get their ass kicked. You can't take it back after you do your Leeroy Jenkins routine. You should count your blessings that all they can do is kick you out of their nations.--Yank 19:18, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Can I just say that the Roman Empire and Venice and all their vassals just sent aid to the Mamluks. Kunarian TALK 21:16, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so if it seems that a retcon is not going to work, then I will fight this algo. Firstly, I still think it is unfair to add a +5 bonus five years after the war began. The mods have just decided to add five points to each state. Furthermore, I am not invading Swahili. So, they need to be dropped. As for expansion, the Mamluk Sultanate did not expand for 20 years of the past 15 (that isn't even possible). In fact, Oman and Yemen expanded for 10 years of the past 15, so they should each get a -10. You say it depends on them being independent, but I feel that their expansion would have the same toll on the economies/militaries.

In addition, I think that the states should not have a +5 for military. In our nations, furusiyya is a big thing. It is a code of ethics which all soldiers/warriors/Mamluks uphold. It is much like OTL Chivalry or Bushido, and demands loyallty to the Emir. When the Emir was deposed, the military would actually attack the locals. So there is that... 22:21, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Rex please stop randomly changing things in the algorith,. You're just causing an edit war, so please discuss them first. Mscoree (talk) 22:51, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

MP asked me, as a neutral person who thinks you're all implausible assholes, to solve this algo for you guys. However, I would like to have it written out here- would any one object?

23:09, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ms agreed with him, too, so I'm editing this algo.

23:15, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Guns has been granted permission to fix this algorithm. All others should refrain from editing (notice the "Locked"). Any unauthorized edits will be removed. If Rex continues to edit he will likely be banned, as at this point he has been openly defying numerous moderators.

Now to Guns, here is the correct nations per side for the Mamluks:

My population is incorrect. I have around 10,000,000 people on my side (between Egypt, Cicilia, and Mesopotamia). This would give me a score of 8. The population of Yemen and Oman, if you include only those under the new revolutionary governments (remember, this is people under the new govt.'s in 1438, not this year), it would be about 500,000. This is about the population of Sana'a and Muscat and the surrounding region, all that they would control after 1438. 23:36, March 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mamluks (L), Venice (S), Epirus (S), Roman Empire (S), Aegina (SV), Athens (SV), Candia (SV), Corfu (SV), Kaffa (SV), Naxos (SV), Negroponte (SV), Ragusa (SV). Mscoree (talk) 23:34, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Rex edited the algo again despite warnings from no less than 4 mods not to do so. And he did it twice. At this point, some punitive action might be called for.

00:03, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, I was trying to put the end date on the war. 00:16, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

That's what you did the fourth time, yes. The first three times, you edited the algo. If you want something changed, put it in the discussion section, get a mod's approval, and then I'll add it.

00:25, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all of your patience and ongoing assistance. I was stubborn. I demanded that the algo be perfomed my way. I would like to especially apologize to: I am sorry, 01:12, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ms - You were much more patient than I gave credit to you for being
 * Guns - I made you get upset, so I am sorry
 * Sine - I am sorry that I had to clash heads with you, mi amigo :D
 * Fed - I am sorry for also fighting with you, amigo
 * Others - If I did not list you and I took it out on you, please accept my apology.

It's okay, I'm just glad that it's all over. I accept your apology. Mscoree (talk) 01:14, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ryukyu and China
in OTL Ryukyu is a Vassal state of the Ming Empire(1429-1644) if no one realized, they paid tribute to china in exchange for knowledge and ships. <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)

Ming China does not have them as a vassal at the present. But it is within our sphere of influence and also a tributary state (but not a vassal). Scandinator (talk) 00:27, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ashikaga Shogunate
On the Japan talk page for Principia Moderni III, it says that the Shogun controls "t he state of Toki (...) Also the state of Shiba has been taken over" as well as the home state of Ashikaga. Is this the case? If so, does this mean I can add them as my vassals on the country list? Ozymandias2 (talk) 22:36, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

No they don't. Shadow (now Scarlet) attacked them but only took small parts. 23:50, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Who is the country in blue in Japan on the world map? Ozymandias2 (talk) 13:08, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

That was my former nation, the Hosokawa Clan. They are, apart from you one of the most influential clans as they more or less led the war against the Ashikaga shogunate alongside China.

Ozy, who is the Yamana clan? SwankyJ (talk) 17:54, March 16, 2014 (UTC)  someone is posting as them but no one is listed, I think they should be crossed out if more turns come out. B/C we dont know whom is posting as that clan.

I've no idea... I was wondering the same. Do you think their turns should be taken in to account? Also, does anybody have any knowledge of Japanese naval capacity in this period? I can't find anything online and have just avoided the subject for fear of implausability. Ozymandias2 (talk) 18:16, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese navy was negligible and wasnt really a force to be reckoned with until they westernized.

Wilster plays as the Yamana from what I understand. Mscoree (talk) 19:31, March 16, 2014 (UTC) f

The Japanese had a fairly significant navy as early as 1590s. This even included early warships clad in iron plates! Krasnoyarsk (talk) 11:18, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

With military support from the Ashikaga, could a mod suggest how many years would it realistically take to cement Ainu control over Hokkaido? Ozymandias2 (talk) 00:28, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

<span style="font-size:28px;font-family:'TrebuchetMS';color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;">Algorithm reformation
<span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">There’s a need for reformation in this algo, i’m not the only one to know that it is too defender biased, which is quite obvious for the fact of Tunis getting nearly 20% of france algo wise in a war in which france would’ve probably broke tunis twice in real life, i believe that the algo should be reviewed and that we should be the ones to avoid ASB empire from working instead of blocking any sort of bellic expansion which is caused by this algo. I hereby open a poll to see if any of you agree with me on this points.- Sine

<span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">Aye

 * Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 04:40, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * compared to the algorithm of PM2 or PM1, this algorithm is not user friendly and a nightmare and a half when it comes to realism. Kunarian TALK 06:54, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mscoree (talk) 12:08, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * part of the reason I've abstained from any wars is this algorithm is not user friendly. I support I revamping of the system.ALLONS-Y! (Basically, RUN!) 19:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

<span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">Nay

 * <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">Scandinator (talk) 07:41, March 18, 2014 (UTC) (It slowly gets more tilted to the attacker as time goes by. That was a deliberate move and the harshness of the algorithm is meant to discourage wars in general as at the time they were costly and one nation would be attacked by opportunitic nations very often)
 * <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">Macedon_Shield.png<font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!! Rome_Shield.png Despite the fact that the algorithm is biased toward the defender quite obviously, the rapid rate of vassalization/expansion into unclaimed territory balances it out. Besides, we already have a couple ASBempires, making wars easier will only create more problems, not less, given that major wars were not super prevalent at this time in history, with history being biased toward the defender at this point in time. Maybe once we get to that era.
 * <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap;">Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 19:41, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm currently working on a algorithm that should be much more realistic and usable, if people wish I could finish it up quickly so that it can be a candidate for the reforming of the algo. Kunarian TALK 06:54, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

I made a bunch of suggestions earlier. Everyone ignored it.

20:52, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey I made suggestions too, we all got ignored. Too many of the mods are doing nothing, either that or they're doing a lot very secretly. Kunarian TALK 21:15, March 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * I've listened to a lot of the suggestions but rather than go, "This needs an overhaul becuase I lost to Tunisia which is African and therefore poor (tech was on par with Europe at the time)" It should be, "Here is a suggestion to an improvement. Is it suitable?" If it is possible since I'm the main mod working with the algorithm, any major reform be discussed with me and then posted here for a vote? I do have some small issues I wish to fix including the ease of use and I do welcome suggestions. And rather than "This is what I think should be done" I believe that PM3 users and mods can work together to make this game great! Scandinator (talk) 07:41, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * First off all, i never said i would have implicitly win and completely annex them i meant that by their population size they should've lost, I mean, I'm almost 10 to 15 times their population size, and its just plainly implausible for them to (algo wise) gain 20% of france, I mean i would have said nothing if they had gained 5% or 10% because is relatively plausible, but 20% is essentially implausible, especially if we compare their populations. its like mexico defeating the USA if the USA had invaded them during Pancho villa's and Zapata's era. and I could believe it if i had a depleted nation from another war or anything, but this essentially implausible. How can a nation smaller in population with the same technology beat someone bigger when if it had happened in OTL it would have either been a truce or a defeat. that's my logic, and i didn't knew you were the main mod with algo's, i just wanted to throw this into the view of other mods. and i don't have any suggestions outside fixing that, I'm not an algo expert like Guns lol. but i knew that the result was just implausible, and that i wasn't the only one to have pointed some things of the algo (others requesting the reformation or alteration of some parts of it such as feudal, Swanky and guns) and i know africa has the same tech at this time, but same tech with less people is always going to be inneffective against bigger nations. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)
 * Just to say that all of OTL France has a population of about 13,300,000 at this time. You control probably about 80% of that so 10,640,000 directly and indirectly. Tunisia has a population of about 1,000,000. So yeah, 10 times their numbers but not 16 times. Also consider that you would only have an army of around 100,000 men maximum but a fleet that would at max (and I really mean squeezing people in) only be able to carry 50,000 at a time and even then they'd be ridden with disease. Tunisia would easily be able to muster a force of up to 20,000 men and they'd have the advantage on their home ground, being well supplied, not to mention that their forces would be augmented with religion fervour. I'd say that it would be a close one really. But France losing by about 20% is a bit out of reach. Also the USA and Mexico are bad comparisons, Mexico is not on the same tech level and not across a sea where it would be hard to get supplies easily. But yes... there is an issue but I think in different places to what you think. Kunarian TALK 18:26, March 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * There's no sea between them but indeed a huge desert (minus texas which is relatively nice) and Mexico and the USA aren't on the same level but indeed on the same technological path (at the moment the only real difference being the massive capability of the USA to make the guns while mexico's lack of that and off resources to purchase enough of them to defend if needed) and the were both modern gunpowder able nations. but we all know that if it had happened mexico would had been utterly beated. and kunarian, i never implied to take over all of Tunisia (It would have been cool though lol) but i'm more than certain that i would probably have kept a few cities or atleat 5% of the region if it had happened in OTL (With some luck offcourse) and I'm confused now about the population of france right know, I took the near 16 - 18 million from Wikipedia and it says this population so i used it. 1400 - 16.600.000 - 1457 - 19.700.000, well either way, there's just no plausible way that in a war Tunisia would have defeated france in such way, I mean, anything from 5% to 10% is plausible, 15% is believable but 20% just points that there's something wrong going on here.

Venetian Morocco
Is there any good reason why my expansion in Morocco was crossed out. I've unstruck it but I thought I'd ask Moderators as well to settle this. Kunarian TALK 09:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Although I'm not the one who crossed it, nor do I think it's necessarily implausible, I have to say that as Venice you're not really supposed to be expanding into Africa. Venice historically had trade posts all over the Mediterranean, but didn't feel the need to conquer large areas off them. Doing so would require a lot of resources and that generally goes against the Venetian principles of trade. Also, where exactly are you expanding into? Along the West African coast? That area isn't easily colonized. You can't just say "We expand x pixels". For example, I have spent several turns sending expeditions and establishing trade companies, just to explore a future area, never mind colonize it. Aside from trade posts really, randomly settling Africa is somewhat implausible for this time. Mscoree (talk) 12:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not for Mods to decide what players can and can't do. Give realistic reactions yes but nto to tell them they can't do an action that is plausible. I have the resources and the motivation (gold, ivory and slave trade).
 * I'm not randomly settling Africa, I find it rather unfair that Castile and France should be allowed to do so and I'm not, yet I am not just doing it "for the empire". The OTL principles of Venetian trade (as vague and meaningless a term as that is after 50 years or so of a completely different history) have changed in ATL quite a bit and I want to establish my control over that part of the coast for the various economic reasons that I have.
 * Also I am not Austria, I have territory right next to it. I have ports right next to it. So that is not a good reason for trying to write this off.
 * So after a mini-rant let's list the issues and deal with them:
 * Not supposed to be doing it: Not a reason I will take seriously, you could use that for anything that goes astray from OTL. Austria's defence and centralisation of the HRE in this game was something that was "not supposed to happen" but it did because the right circumstances were present nor "should" Austria have got involved in Morocco but you did because this isn't OTL and things have changed and you are allowed to make your own decisions as a player.
 * Venice historically had trade posts all over the Mediterranean, but didn't feel the need to conquer large areas off them: True, historically, expect for the bit where they tried to take over northern italy and greece. What I am doing is establishing my control over the west african coastline, that is all, building port settlements to act as hopping stones of trade and to ensure that I can have access to various goods in Africa.
 * Doing so would require a lot of resources and that generally goes against the Venetian principles of trade: Venice spent 10% of all of its revenue on its fleet and arsenal. That is a lot of resources, I think that this argument falls flat as Venice was (and why am I even having to argue from an OTL point of view here, it's been 50 years almost of completelty different history!) very ready to invest in expanding its trade influence.
 * Also, where exactly are you expanding into? Along the West African coast? YUP!
 * That area isn't easily colonized: Then apply a penalty! but don't just go "nope cause Venice!" because to be honest that just stinks of double-standards and people being held back in the future because at some point they'll do something that a mod decides is against the OTL equivalent of their nations OTL philosophy as the mod understands it.
 * You can't just say "We expand x pixels": I haven't, I've been establishing my control over the coast using my fleet and by sending Venetian expiditions. I've put more effort into my attempts to expand along my nations borders than some people have put into their entire nation.
 * I have spent several turns sending expeditions and establishing trade companies, just to explore a future area, never mind colonize it: Well good for you. I'm not Austria, I have a fleet of thousands whereas you do not and I have a trade empire, never mind companies, that has been around longer than the HRE has been a thing. On top of that I have ports and settlements and people right next to the land. I think that the capabilities of Austria are shadowed massively in this regard by the capabilities of Venice and other Sea based nations like Britain or Spain or Portugal.
 * Aside from trade posts really, randomly settling Africa is somewhat implausible for this time: why? because spain was doing just that at this time OTL! Also this isn't random, it's to secure trade! I'm not building puny little trade posts either, I'm building hopping stones (aka small ports) to better control said trade that I am interested in. Venice did this all along the eastern Adriatic coast OTL! Give me a penalty if you really think its hard to do so, I think there's something in the rules about 75% off for difficult areas for colonisation.
 * So please stop trying to bind players rigidly to OTL, firstly because its illogical in what is supposed to be both a game and an ATL and secondly because you can't micro manage the game to that scale and so it'll produce too many difficult double standards. Simply react realistically to their actions. Venice expands along the African coast to secure trade and you consider it difficult for Venice to do so? 75% penalty! not "Nope never happened". The former makes the player feel that it is a difficult task and wonder whether turns are better spent elsewhere (you could say realistic), the latter makes players feel like they do not truly get to make the decisions and makes the game less meaningful. Kunarian TALK 13:21, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * god someone give me a sedative, I know this is a game but it activates a part of my brain that just produces stress sometimes. :L Kunarian TALK 13:34, March 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * I believe the main issue at hand is the idea that colonies on the mainland should not generally be established until 1500, as the rules states. You and Castile have land there because you won it off Morocco in a war, but further expansion south would pretty much be a colony, is what the mods are thinking, I think.
 * France should not have a colony there, either.
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:50, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well as long as the restriction is universal. Kunarian TALK 23:40, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Again, I started off my statement by saying, "nor do I think it's necessarily implausible." I was just noting the fact that it would be difficult for Venice to expand regularly into Africa. Mscoree (talk) 10:36, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

I think I'll just say this again. And LG and Guns can't say I'm wrong, because unless they can prove the did the research, they can't say anything. European colonization was a result of necessity, not a point in time where they could travel beyond their own seas. The territories Genoa held in the Black Sea were the same distance from that as Mauritania is from Venice. And given that the Venetians were better sailors, they could reach those lands faster and safer than the Genoans ever could. As for Europe as a whole, when the friendly Byzantine Empire was destroyed, and the more hostile Turks in control of the lucrutive Silk Road that began at Constantinople, the Europeans now found themselves cut off from the East by the Turks. Thus, when Columbus showed up, he was seeking aid in finding a sea route to the East by sailing West (thinking he would show up in China).

The colonization of the New World didn't begin because the Europeans or the other nations didn't have the technology, it didn't happen because there wasn't a big enough reason to do so. Why sail into a vast and empty ocean you know nothing about and see no profit in exploring, when you could simply trade with the people you on the trade routes you know to be highly productive? When that question was answered by "because there be angry Turks out there", the Europeans turned west with the hope of finding a way to China. The ships Columbus used to reach America were the very same ones the Europeans were using at this point in the game. They can reach any part of the known world because the Europeans know were their destination is, not because there's some mystical cloud floating over Africa blocking any attempts to sail around it. In closing, the Europeans didn't sail around Africa because they didn't know if it had an end, and crossing land to reach India was faster and safer.

Thus, to say Castille or Venince can't go certain places when they routinely travelled to place much farther away, and much more primitive nations such as the Phoenicians travelled greater distances in poorer vessels regularly, is both unrealistically and restrictive to the umpth degree. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:16, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

FYI
Due to outside circumstances I will have an extended absence from PMIII, plus my account is acting up. Daeseunglim

Cuzco.
Hello. I know i have been absent for a while due to a combination of internet and personal troubles, but Cuzco has expanded greatly beyond what is shown on the map. Cuzco expanded into Aymara territory while they where still decenterlized. I did not use an algo because I was told i would not need one. I was not told otherwise while I did that, so I'm assuming that my expansion still stands. Could it be added to the next map?What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 22:13, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

The northern portion of the Aymara's have centralized and are resisting your expansion. Scandinator (talk) 07:18, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

I expanded before that, but for the sake of things, I will re-do it.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 18:58, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Overexpansionism
A warning to the North and Central American States. You are overexpanding into hostile terriotry without algorithms. Mods have noted this and unless you wish to fix the issue. Mods will take action. Scandinator (talk) 07:42, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Cuzco war of expansion. (Cuzco vs Aymaras)
==N/A War (Year Begin-Year End)== ===Nation One (Attacker)=== *Location: 0 *Tactical Advantage: 0 *Nations: 0 = 0 *Military Development: 0 *Economic Development: 0 *Expansion: 0 *Infrastructure: 0 *Motive: 0 *Chance: 0 **Edit count: 0 **UTC: 0 (0) = **Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) = *Nation Age: 0 *Population: 0 *Participation: +10 *Recent Wars: 0 *Vassals and Puppets: 0 Total: 0 ===Nation Two (Defender)=== *Location: 0 *Tactical Advantage: 0 *Nations: 0 = 0 *Military Development: 0 *Economic Development: 0 *Expansion: 0 *Infrastructure: 0 *Motive: 0 *Chance: 0 **Edit count: 0 **UTC: 0 (0) = **Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) = *Nation Age: 0 *Population: 0 *Participation: +10 *Recent Wars: 0 *Vassals and Puppets: 0 Total: 0 ===Result=== *((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0 *(0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0 ===Discussion=== So I may seem like a dumbass right now, but I can't find the algorithim information. Also if I'm doing this wrong I aplogize.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 19:12, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

You're supposed to copy the above code (not while editing, just viewing), then paste it here in source and add the relevant information. Mscoree (talk) 20:33, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

Note: Cuzco player will receive no help from the Ica-Nazca, as they have cut relations with them. SwankyJ (talk) 02:01, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Chagatai concern
For the last few turns, we all have noticed that the Chagatai have been influenced by multiple nations. Me, the Timurids, Fedelede, the Jochid Ulus and of course Ninjasvswarriors, the Alliance of the Four Oirats. Now due to reasons which I do not feel the need of saying, I think it would be wiser to split up the Chagatai khanate through some means, since I don't really need all of it. I have made a map of not one, not two, but  THREE  different splitting I would easily approve. Although each might be negotiated, my primary concern is that I get a belt which allows me to have a border with China, and by belt I don't mean a tiny little corridor.

Although the first option would be the more realistic one, I am willing to accept the second option with ease. I will of course, leave this open for discussion.

Discussion
Ow. My eyes. T-T Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:05, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Still don't know if the Timurids even have trade rights in the Khante, so theres that.

Yes they do, and let's not ignore the fact that the khan who ruled 'till 1402 was chosen by Timur in OTL (in the 1380s, not sure exactly when). Anyways, even though the relations have been damaged a bit I don't see why I shouldn't have trade rights. And sign your stuff

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate#Chagatayid_rule_continued_in_East_Turkestan Here is something I have learned. ] While a khan was installed in the 1380s by Timur (After several decades of having Khans that fought Timur), the rival khan family that fought against Timur before he reinstalled some devout Timur-lover still maintained a high position within the Chagatai Khanate, and chose all the successive Khans after the 1380s Timur one, which I would assume would be an unfavorable, Timur hating Khans. This cycle was broken OTL in the 1420s when a different Khan rose to power that wasn't part of the rival Dughlats. However, I don't remember a mod event stating otherise, so for all intents and purposes, the Chatagatai was still ruled by the Timur-hating (Cause ya know, he took half their lands) Dughlats. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 02:24, March 20, 2014 (UTC) (<--- There's the sig, by the way)

Georgian Vassal Consolidation
Mods - assuming my vassalizations all proceed as planned, I'm going to have a total of 10 nations to run by 1448 (Georgia, Armenia, Gordyene, Adiabene, Rani, Van, Ossetia, Dido, the Avars, and the Leks). Given that half of these "states" have fewer thab 50,000 people, I doubt they can really contribute effectively to a war, and I don't want to "cheat" the algorithm by adding loads of small states to my wars. So, with your permission, I'd like to consolidate the smaller ones along cultural lines; I tend to do exactly the same thing for each of the "mini-states" anyway, so it really just saves me a lot of flavor text writing.

What I'm thinking is this: Let me know if this is plausible - if it is, it would let me spend more time actually contributing to the game and less time thinking up local variations of doing exactly the same thing. TankOfMidgets (talk) 23:04, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Archduchy of Assyria: Would include Gordyene, Adiabene, and Van, all of which would be plurality "Assyrian" culture when combined; Van is exclusively Turkish at present, but as it only has 25K people, that's not saying much. I'd establish this state through a dynastic/personal union between Gordyene and Adiabene, and would add Van to it as a vassal; for simplicity's sake, I'd like to enact the same policies across all three. Given that I have
 * Principality of Vladikavkaz: Would include Ossetia, Dido, the Avars, and the Leks, all of which are/were small, disorganized chiefdoms along my northern border. Given how small these chiefdoms are (Ossetia, the largest, has 45K), I'd really like to just combine them into one overarching polity.

I find both of these moves to be entirely plausible. The only objection I would express is that "Vladikavkaz" is a Russian word meaning "King of the Caucasus." From my brief search, the Ossetian term is a secondary term. Furthermore, the city was build in the 1700s. I think that the name needs a bit of a redo, at the very least because the Russian influence would simply not exist. Thanks, 00:37, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Fair point - the absence of Russians in the Volga is something I haven't yet adjusted to. I've decided to go with "Amier-Kavkasiis" - Georgian for "trans-Caucasus," if it's a plausible name. Hopefully I'll come up with a better name that actually relates to local cultural traditions, but in the meantime geography is a decent enough stopgap for my purposes. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:43, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Seems plausible enough. My only objection is that you change Archduchy to Duchy or Grand Duchy, since Archduchy is a term made up by the Habsburgs and is unique to their nation. It doesn't really have any meaning beyond that. Grand Duchy would probably make more sense for your nation. Mscoree (talk) 18:46, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. Grand Principality would work - it's a Slavic title, and Georgia has enough contacts with Moscow and the Ukraine that it fits better than the Western-inspired Grand Duchy. I'll amend the title in this year's orders. TankOfMidgets (talk) 20:30, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Cuzco(Attacker)
Total: 87*1.25= 108.75
 * Location: 25 (Capital close to location)
 * Tactical Advantage: 3 (attacker's advantage and co-ordination)
 * Nations: Cuzco (L)  = 4
 * Military Development: 12
 * Economic Development: 18+1=19
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 9
 * Motive: 3+4=7
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count: 220
 * UTC: 0 (0) = 8
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) = 86.3775
 * Nation Age: 0 (300 years old)
 * Population:
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Aymara Defender)
Total: 64*1.25=80
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Aymara (L) = 0
 * Military Development: 5
 * Economic Development: 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 6
 * Motive: 5+9=14
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +2
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result

 * ((108.75/(80+108.75))*2)-1 = .15
 * (.15)*(1-1/(2*1)) = .07
 * (.15)*(1-1/(2*2))= .11
 * (.15)*(1-1/(2*3))= .12

If the war lasts 1 year, 7% will be gained, then 11% then 12%. What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 16:27, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
So I tried to do this in the other section, but it went all screwy like on me, so i made a new one. Also where do I find the information I plug in? How long does development last. I suck at this I know.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 20:09, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

Alright so I filled in my information, but I don't know anything about the Aymaras, so I could use some help there.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 01:49, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

So you're attacking and your location is 25? And the defender has 20? Idk about that. SwankyJ (talk) 02:47, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

It goes by capital I thought. Since Cuzco is just a city with a few outlying districts, It would be 25 for me. I was unsure where the Aymara Capital was.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 19:36, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Infrastructure is only applicable to defenders. Not sure on the rest, looking in to it.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 19:59, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

I Know, I includeded it there because it was in the code, but I did not count it in my addition. Also I did my math wrong on the adding, I will double check my math on the chance (I did it by hand...)What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 20:10, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

I gave them a 2 for popoulation, figured that the Aymara's had more than me, but only part of them centrilized so Im just going to assume that they would get 2. What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 01:13, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Bahamani bickering
Now, although the Vijaynagar thing was deemed invalid for the Timurids during Nova's stay here, I do have to add that I had Bahamani as a vassal when I took Timurids up. Now, even though I annexed them, and even though I asked Mscoree two times to fix the map, they are still not on it. Now, the Bahamani Sultanate's territory was north of Vijaynagar (the extremely light green-yellowish nation in south India). As far as I've been informed by Fed, it is okay I annex it. And if one wishes to question if I could hold that territory I have worked on my navy so I could maintain stability in said region.That would be all for now, thank you for your precious time.

Sincerely,

Sorry, wasn't sure which part you were talking about. I will add it. Mscoree (talk) 23:21, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

There is a section for this kinda thing... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 05:29, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140130191806/althistory/images/0/03/India_labelled.png you can see Bahmani on the map. Also Eip, I know there's a section for this, but since this also puts in question my ability to even have it as a vassal I thought it'd be better to put it here. -Sky

Mod Nominations
Hello everyone. Given that Nova is no longer actively contributing to the wiki, I believe that it is fit to establish elections to choose a replacement fourteenth moderator. I personally am nominating Feud, but I am doing a more general election thing so that the democratic tradition is upheld or somesuch. I believe that I got approval from other mods to do this in mod page. Here it goes:

Feudalplague
Feud has consistently proven himself as an ASB detector extraordinaire, as well as offering to help several users in doing disting things, relating to either ideas for plausible decisions, graphic work (maps) or moderation of disputes. Henceforth, I believe he deserves to be a mod.

All those in favour

 * Fed (talk) 01:23, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mscoree (talk) 01:27, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * ALLONS-Y! (Basically, RUN!) 01:33, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 01:55, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * 02:01, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * SwankyJ (talk) 02:44, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 02:45, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * 06:53, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Scandinator (talk) 14:50, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:33, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Macedon_Shield.png<font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!! Rome_Shield.png
 * Cookiedamage (talk) 20:04, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cour *talk* PMII_Mayan_Flag.pngCaborr_Flag.png 21:44, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Quashi (talk) 02:09, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kunarian TALK 08:52, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:07, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 06:48, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Feud has shown immense interest in the subject of PMIII modhood, and frankly, has done a better job without modhood than many mods are doing at the moment (no offense). He has my vote. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * I support Feud mainly because he puts other mods to shame for inactivity and despite that sometimes he can be rigid and inflexible in his view of how things should be in the heat of the moment, once he's calm he's very level headed. I want more active mods and more mods that actually READ players posts, not just copy paste from OTL. Kunarian TALK 08:52, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Population Statistics
If you want any about your nation or cities please don't be a stranger. Just hit me up here or on my talk page with a message. I have several sources and can give you a good idea of your nations population, its spread and growth. Kunarian TALK 07:07, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

My short absence (SOLVED)
From Friday, (tomorrow) untill Sunday/Monday I will be in Germany and thus I shan't be able to post. Now, I am asking for someone to post for me for those few turns (I will give instructions about it once someone accepts). I hope someone helps, thank you

Swanky agreed to help.

Religious Map
Sine - with your permission, I'd like to take over the religious map-making position. I know you said you'd update the map for 1435, but it's 1447 and we're working off a map that's 20 years out of date. I'm perfectly willing to do the job, and I imagine you're busy enough modding the game as-is; I just don't want to "steal" your job without letting you know what's going on. TankOfMidgets (talk) 23:54, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Mod inactivity
For the past two years, I've asked for a mod response for a marriage between the Ashikaga Shogunate and the Date clan. So far there has been no response, either negative or affirmative. Any chance of something being done...? Ozymandias2 (talk) 00:08, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

We have a bunch of requests coming it at all times, it often takes years for something to be verified. There should be no issue with the marriage as far as I can see, but I defer to other mods just to make sure[http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andr3w777 ALLONS-Y! ] (Basically, RUN!) 00:26, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Seems fine to me as well. Sorry for the delay in answering. There are usually a lot of posts to sort through and sometimes requests can get lost. Mscoree (talk) 00:37, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Wait- this game has active mods?

Huh! I played for half a month, and I only ever noticed one. :)

20:31, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of inactive mods, shouldn't we remove the mods who don't care enough to do their jobs?--Yank 20:38, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Emergency Absence
I need to take a week long leave of absence, a close family member is dying and I have to see her before she goes. This is not how I planned spending my spring break. i won't be able to post until my return next Monday or Teusday. I have placed a request on the mod page for a mod to post for my nation in my absence. Thank You all in advance.[http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andr3w777 ALLONS-Y! ] (Basically, RUN!) 20:12, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Monaco Issue (SOLVED) or Can Vassals Vassalise?
I would like several unbiased mods to deal with the Monaco issue. Quashi claims to have annexed it despite the fact that he used Genoa (a vassal) to vassalise and then annex it. My logic says that a vassal cannot vassalise.

Also Monaco was never a colony of Genoa as Feud has claimed.

Further I do not trust Feuds judgement on this, no offence to him, Quashi is too close of an in-game ally to him and unfortunately Feud is not averse to bias like we have seen other mods be in the past.

So considering this has some effect on the games rules I think that the issue should be considered by various mods and a decision should be made and added to the rules page so that issues like this in the future can be cleared up in a similar manner. Kunarian TALK 10:44, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure why he would even want to annex Monaco in the first place. It's supposed to be neutral. Unless someone says otherwise, I don't believe vassals are allowed to vassalize, else nations would expand exponentially. Mscoree (talk) 12:54, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

From this, I would say the Monaco was part of Genoa. However, it seemed more like basically family property under the sovereignity of Genoa at this point. From that link, it seems as if Genoa held substantial interests in Monaco since at least 1191. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 14:30, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly I think it depends on the situation. The fact that Monaco is a small city state compared to Genoa makes it seem rather easy for Genoa to vassalize it, whether it is a vassal or not. Vassal states have their own interests and actions as well, and I don't think the rules forbid it, but I could be wrong.

That being said, this obviously cannot apply everywhere, and it makes logical sense that the vassal can only vassalize states smaller or weaker than itself, otherwise it may drag itself and its lord nation into a war that they may not want.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 14:49, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * To note: when Genoa "started vassalising" they were a destroyed nation. Having it decided on soft factors like weakness/strength or misleading factors like pixel size will only cause problems. For instance, if Athens was independent and I wanted to use my vassal of Naxos to vassalise them and we went by if your vassal is bigger in pixels you can then I could despite that Athens is bigger in population and no way would ever plausibly submit to Naxos. If Athens was independent and I decided to vassalise them with Attica, a more populous vassal than naxos and with land abilities, and we go by strength then how do we decide if Athens is weaker? if I claim enough that they are? this would be less of an issue with a nation of several million population however you can argue for ages about whether someone is technically weaker or not.


 * I already think the current vassalise system is shaky but at least it is definitive and clear cut. We need clarity here. Kunarian TALK 15:44, March 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * To clarify, I did say "smaller or weaker," which in the case of Athens it would be weaker and therefore still be legitimate. On whether it is weaker or not, since that was your vassal in the first place, you have the say in the matter, but if it wasn't, then I am sure mods can examine the situation and determine the stronger.


 * On the issue of Genoa, yes it was destroyed by war, but I do believe Naples invested heavily in its reconstruction. And to be fair, even in its destroyed/partially reconstructed state, I find it unlikely that Genoa would be weaker than Monaco, which has little to commend it in terms of military power.


 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 15:49, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Athens isn't weaker though. Athens has a local population that rivals Attica and many city with walls and fortifications, along with money due to trade revenues. while Attica lacks this, having a sparse population that may be large once brought together but is also poor. So you can already see the issues with using soft factors especially using "weaker". Also leaving it to mods isn't the best idea, especially as we've already seen the issues of mod bias damage the game and reputation of mods and have already seen how easy it is to accuse a mod of bias.


 * If you do it on soft factors still, Genoa had no right to vassalise and annex Monaco (it didn't even do it when it was weakened in OTL) because Monaco was a neutral trading territory. So will that be taken into account? It is a perfectly reasonable point about the implausibility of annexation.


 * Once again I prove from the above that we cannot rely on soft factors and must have a clear rule else we end up with enternal arguments taking up mod time as well as game breaking abilities to vassalise exponentially. Kunarian TALK 16:06, March 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Its personal property the same principal applies with Castile and Morocco since the Prince of Morocco is a Castilian noble, he still owns the territory in castile since it wasnt stripped from him when he was given the ability to rule morocco. If the Grimaldis were not stripped of their personal property in Monaco (and it wasnt picked up by Italy) then its part of Genoa proper because it was personal property. Nuff Said -Feud
 * It was never part of Genoa on the map. Retroactively changing it because a mistake was made on behalf of the mods is a bit much. By that logic we should give all the islands that are Ottoman in the Aegean to the Romans, because they were supposed to be Genoan and the Romans planned to conquer them as reward for their part in the Genoan war. They were OTL supposed to be part of Genoa so why not? Kunarian TALK 20:50, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Okay the Monaco issue is solved. Although it might be worth continuing to pursue a clear line on vassals vassalising. Kunarian TALK 12:18, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Dialogue for peace between the Netherlands and the HRE
Karl formally wishes to open up peace talks with the Holy Roman Emperor, and offers the following terms:

 1. the concession of Liege to the Kingdom of the Netherlands in return for Dutch forces withdrawing from Munster, 

2. The HRE recognize the seperation of the Lowlands from the Empire, inexchange the Netherlands will cease all actions against the HRE and respect the territorial integraty of the Empire,

3. The Emperor will recognize Karl van Nassau and the house of Nassau as the legitimate soviergn of the Netherlands, 

4. The HRE will grant trading rights to the North Sea Trade League in the Northern German States in exchange for a promise of ceasing all blockades on North German Ports, 

5. no monatery compensation will be demanded by either side of the conflict,

'''6. the strongholds in Luxemburg, and Cleves are to be dismantled in exchange for a promise that the Netherlands will not militarize their eastern border for a period of 20 years, unless provoked ot do so by German aggression. '''

Albert II likewise would like to pursue peace, but disagrees witht he sixth point, stating that any fortifications there are serving for those states protection, just as they had during the war, and just as they had years prior. In that regard he asks that this point be removed, and in exchange offers a non aggression pact for twenty years to ensure that these fortifications are not used to continue hostilities. Mscoree (talk) 15:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

As a compromise Karl offers the following point, That no Austrian or german coalition forces be stationed at the fortifications for a period of 50 years, along with the non aggression pact. With Blood and Iron (talk) 16:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Albert II agrees to this term, stating that garrisons in the above nations shall be limited to that particular state's personal garrison. and that Austrian and German coalition forces shall not use these forticiations as agreed. Mscoree (talk) 16:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

With Albert agreeing to terms Karl van Nassau proposes that the peace talks end with the Treaty of Brussels stipulating the above clauses. - NK

Albert II signs the Treaty of Brussels. Mscoree (talk) 18:24, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Spring Cleaning
I think we need to remove the mods who have no interest in actually using their mod powers for anything. The abuser Dean/Nova may be gone, but I think apathy is only a step above outright abuse. For better or for worse Ms has been working his ass off, and he's pretty much one of the few mods actually using his power. --Yank 00:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

We are, but you won't see it. Ms is a big part of the go-between. Cour *talk* 21:52, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Christian Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 119 (Plus chance, a bunch of nations, and other)
 * Location: 17.333 ~= 17
 * Roman Empire: 25
 * Albanian (Rebels): 25
 * Venice: 25
 * Georgia: 15
 * Armenia: 15
 * Assyria: 20
 * Rumania (Wallachia/Moldavia): 25
 * Austria: 10
 * Grand Duchy of Moscow: 20
 * Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 20
 * Luxembourg: 10
 * Brandenburg: 10
 * Bohemia: 15
 * Moravia: 15
 * Trier: 10
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Roman Empire (L), Venice (L), Epirus (L), Aegina (MV), Athens (MV), Candia (MV), Corfu (MV), Kaffa (MV), Naxos (MV), Negroponte (MV), Ragusa (MV), Valona (MV), Georgia (L), Armenia (LV), Assyria (LV), Rani (MV), Amier-Kavkasia (MV), Austria (L), Rumania (L), Albania (Rebels) (L), Luxembourg (L), Brandenburg (L), Bohemia (L), Moravia (L), Silesia (MV), Lusatia (MV), Trier (L), Muscovy (L), Lithuania (MV), Netherlands (S), Hamburg (S) = 90/4=23
 * Military Development: 418/32 =13
 * Roman Empire: 16
 * Albania (Rebels): 2
 * Venice: 4
 * Epirus: 8
 * Georgia: 12
 * Armenia: 8
 * Assyria: 10
 * Rumania (Wallachia/Moldavia): 3
 * Austria: 16
 * Grand Duchy of Moscow: 30
 * Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 2
 * Luxembourg: 16
 * Brandenburg: 16
 * Bohemia: 16
 * Moravia: 16
 * Salzburg:16
 * Gorizia:16
 * Augsburg:16
 * Patria del Friuli:16
 * Chur:16
 * Württemberg: 16
 * Electorate of the Palatinate:16
 * Oettingen: 16
 * Ulm: 16
 * Cilli: 16
 * Mainz: 16
 * Hohenlohe: 16
 * Strassburg: 8
 * Metz: 4
 * Silesia: 16
 * Lusatia: 16
 * Trier: 16
 * Zweirbrucken: 0
 * Julich: 0
 * Economic Development: 372/32 = 12 + city scores (Antwerp, Kaffa, Venice) = 17
 * Roman Empire: 14
 * Albania (Rebels): 2
 * Venice: 14
 * Epirus: 14
 * Georgia: 8
 * Armenia: 12
 * Assyria: 10
 * Rumania (Wallachia/Moldavia): 12
 * Austria: 14
 * Grand Duchy of Moscow: 0
 * Grand Duchy of Lithuania: 0
 * Luxembourg: 14
 * Brandenburg: 14
 * Bohemia: 14
 * Moravia: 14
 * Salzburg: 14
 * Gorizia: 14
 * Augsburg: 14
 * Patria del Friuli: 14
 * Chur: 14
 * Württemberg: 14
 * Electorate of the Palatinate: 14
 * Oettingen: 14
 * Ulm: 14
 * Cilli: 14
 * Mainz: 14
 * Hohenlohe: 14
 * Strassburg: 6
 * Metz: 4
 * Silesia: 14
 * Lusatia: 14
 * Trier: 14
 * Zweirbrucken:
 * Julich:
 * Muscovy: 0
 * Lithuania: 0
 * Expansion: -4 (Georgia)
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 10 (Religious, support) May I argue another thing? The Romans are also fighting to liberate their people as well, so would kinsmen under distress work as well?
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Roman Empire: 5
 * Albania (Rebels): -5
 * Venice: -15
 * Epirus: 0
 * Georgia: 0
 * Armenia: 0
 * Assyria: -5
 * Rumania (Wallachia/Moldavia): 5
 * Austria: 0
 * Grand Duchy of Moscow:
 * Grand Duchy of Lithuania:
 * Luxembourg: 0
 * Brandenburg:
 * Bohemia: 0
 * Moravia: 0
 * Salzburg: +5
 * Gorizia: +5
 * Augsburg: +5
 * Patria del Friuli: +5
 * Chur: +5
 * Württemberg: +5
 * Electorate of the Palatinate: +5
 * Oettingen: 0
 * Ulm: 0
 * Cilli: 0
 * Mainz: 0
 * Hohenlohe: 0
 * Strassburg: -5
 * Metz: -5
 * Silesia: 0
 * Lusatia: 0
 * Trier: -15
 * Zweirbrucken: -5
 * Julich: -5
 * Muscovy:
 * Lithuania:
 * Population: 29
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3 (Georgia)
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Ottoman Sultanate/Empire (Defender)
Total: 61(+chance)*1.25 = 76
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Ottoman Empire (L), 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 4
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +5 (151 years)
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result

 * ((W/(L+W))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion
This is a work in progress. Mscoree (talk) 02:12, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

If the Christians are going to use vassals, they don't get *1.25, they get -1 for EACH vassal. Also, a wide-scale crusade like this hasn't happened since the 1200s. I'm not really sure how plausible it is to have all of these countries against the Ottomans at this point in time. I mean, to my recollection, there was barely a response to the Fall of Constantinople; would there really be this much response here? ChrisL123 (talk) 05:07, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * We get the bonus since none of them are a leader. Also the plausibility of this algorithm is being question. Mscoree (talk) 13:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey if its considered implausible that everyone else is involved, I'll happily take the Ottos on alone or with Roman help. Kunarian TALK 14:27, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * ATL is different, people rallied behind the Romans. Also concerning the *1.25 and -1, you only get the penalty if you have vassals as leaders. Kunarian TALK 12:17, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * From the rules: "x 1.25 if only your main nation is fighting," and "-1 for every vassal involved." ChrisL123 (talk) 19:14, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I added the -28 for the vassals. I mean, unless the rules were changed recently, in which case please change it back. ChrisL123 (talk) 19:52, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chris the minus only applies when vassals are leaders. Kunarian TALK 20:52, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

We had quite a heated argument both in chat and in the moderator page, and this algo and the war are represented are retconned and in lockdown until further notice. Fed (talk) 05:08, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Any update in status? Kunarian TALK 12:17, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I'd just like to ask something here since I couldn't get a good answer on the moderator page. How should we adjust this algorithm so that it is plausible, in terms of changing nations. It has been said that it is implausible because of the number of leaders, but I'd like to point out that there are only three independent (de jure) realms (four if you count Trier as independent) that are leaders and are answering the so called crusade. You'll notice that all three are personal allies, so it's basically just a small, private crusade, not one in which all of Europe, including people who hate each other get involved. They are also supported by the pope, who has the incentive to call such action considering he has personal interest in the Albania area, and would most likely want that pacified. In addition to those three nations there are three eastern nations (four if you include Albania which is fighting for independence basically) who are attacking the Ottomans for their own reasons, independent of this crusade or the western nations. Note, they are not allied, but rather co belligerents. Just like how in the Invasion of Muscovy the UNC and the Golden Horde were co belligerents not allies. The remaining nations that are leaders are nations in personal union with some of the others. For example, Bohemia, Luxembourg, Brandenburg, and Moravia are the same ruler as Austria, as are Venice and Epirus. Again, just like the Invasion of Muscovy, these nations are counted independently, just like how the nations of the UNC were and the nations of Poland and Lithuania were. With that said, what exactly is the limit that would make this plausible? I know that in some wars against the Ottomans in the 1500's there was basically this amount of states and more (although some at differing points). Also, it should be noted that having this many nations actually brings down our scores, but we chose to keep them and not have only the high ranking people as to not give ourselves a big advantage. I am also aware that this so called coalition will likely collapse. People will drown in the river, armies will get drunk and accidentally kill the other. I think we were all going to play around with this, and generally have some crazy crusader high jinks not seen since the third and fourth crusade. Anyway, I hoped that cleared some stuff, and my original question still remains. What do the sides need to be changed to? Mscoree (talk) 13:24, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Could I be apart of this cursades please. - Scarlet

As a means of comparison:
 * Third Crusade: 9 leaders
 * Ottoman–Habsburg wars (as a whole): 12 leaders
 * Little War in Hungary: 6 leaders
 * Ottoman–Venetian War: 10 leaders
 * Great Turkish War: 12 leaders

NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 13:35, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Also we should have something a bit closer to 140 rather than 119. There are calculation issues. Kunarian TALK 14:26, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * When I first calculated the algorithm we were missing several pieces of information. Several nations didn't have their scores in for example. Mscoree (talk) 14:53, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I added a war to that list. Granted for the most part those wars against the Ottomans are defensive, but the point still remains that a large quantity of states could contest the Ottomans. Mscoree (talk) 14:59, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

The military and the economy are wrong, you must only count leaders Quashi (talk) 16:34, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Could Foix and Andorra send some troops for the cursades please. - Scarlet

I realize the war is in lockdown at present, but Georgian numbers are now accurate, in the event that it does occur. TankOfMidgets (talk) 20:04, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I posted this on the mod page, and I will now post it here for the benefit of the non-mods.

<p dir="ltr" id="docs-internal-guid-48eb7b7c-f0cc-9305-95b1-d48844629c45" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">So I hear there is some talk of retconning this war, and reducing the power of the Venetians and Romans in Greece. To counter, I do point out that every nation involved in the war both had a legitimate reason to get involved.

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">Venice wants to help the Albanians. The Roman Empire wants to help its ally Venice as well as reclaim its lost territory. Austria has found a convenient time to finally fulfill the crusading obligations that the Pope has been continuously agitating for. Romania sees an excuse to gain land in Bulgaria. Muscovy and Georgia both want to support their Orthodox brethren, and the latter also has the added incentive for more land for either itself or its vassals. All the states have a legitimate reason to get involved in this war, and even though they have different goals, they still have a major incentive to cooperate. Likewise, there is a major incentive for all members involved to start the war. Also, the retcon of the war goes against the rules, as it is clearly stated that “Wars can only be retconned if <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">all <span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;"> players involved agree to do so. “

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><span style="font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">On the other side regarding the control of Venice and the Romans in Greece and other areas, both of these areas have been under their control for quite some time. For the last 200 hundred years, Greece has been under either Roman or Western control. While there have been revolts on both sides, the increasing economic power of the two states helps offset that. Furthermore, both Venice and the Roman Empire have had revolts in that part of their Empires as well. There was the Latin Revolt in Roman Greece and the Venetian Civil War that also took place in Greece. Both of these were player-created, and I at least figured the Latin Revolt into my calculations as a recent war. And looking towards the other parts of the Roman Empire, the other ethnic groups are not a major factor. Sinope has a significant Greek population that helps the Empire maintain control there. Also, most of the Turks would likely have fled the area once the Romans came in. The Crimean Goths are not a major issue either, as they are Orthodox and have been granted citizenship just like the Latins in Greece. In addition, I have spent over two decades integrating new territories to the Empire. Taxes have been lowered, and the Empire is more economically active than it has been in many years. Not much breeding ground for major revolts, at least on my end. -MP

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">

<p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;">"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:17, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I want to second what MP has said. But I will say that if it is such a big issue that some of the people aren't directly next to the Ottomans then we can remove them from the Algo, reduce it to the original four coalition members of Venice, Rome, Wallachia/Moldavia and Georgia. I don't want to do this because it is perfectly plausible that many nations would join this war, as many nations supported Constantinople when the Ottomans besieged it at the beginning of the game.

Also may I say those styling this as a holy war are wrong. As the declarant I, Venice, never spoke of anything holy. This is a war to assist in the creation of an independent Albania and to weaken the Ottoman grip in Europe.

I'll argue further that the reduced coalition is completely plausible. Venice and the Romans at least should not be told they can't fight the Ottomans, OTL we fought a dozen wars against them and we have no plans to absorb the Ottomans into a Roman-Venetian super state. The only places we are targeting are Greek or non-Turk.

So could the mods please give a good detailed explanation as to why they think COMPLETELY retconning this war is logical or even fair or bound by the rules. Reducing to the four player coalition is logical and agreeable.

Also I have heard various arguments, such as this being illogical as the Ottos are a buffer against the Mamluks. If you honestly think that the Ottos are a buffer between me and my ally, then you are very very wrong. And frankly it sounds like an attack on Rex at the expense of Venice, Rome and all the other logical participants. Kunarian TALK 21:32, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't have a problem with the war itself. The Ottomans had been challenged military-wise for centuries. If it wasn't called a "Crusade," I could see it as a logical part of history. I would be against its retcon. However, what I do have to bring up is the plausibility of some of these nations being involved in the war. Can we say that, for example, Austria's many tiny vassals in the HRE could plausibly give a relevant amount of manpower and military might to influence the outcome of the war? Could they even realistically travel hundreds of miles to get even close to Ottomans? That was my biggest beef with this war. But that's just my thoughts. ChrisL123 (talk) 22:00, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

The name should probably be changed since this isn't primarily for religious reasons, and crusade is used very loosely. As for the states in Germany, keep in mind that during the 1100's these states contributed significantly especially in the Swabia area where most of my vassals are. In 1146 a diet at Speyer under Conrad III caused the entire HRE to get involved in the Second Crusade, while in the Third Germany personally sent 100,000 men. We also are using Venice's ships, so if in the 1100's we were able to send that many men, we should have the ability to now. Plus, it seems they are being removed from the military development section, so in most cases they hardly add to the algo, and even decrease from it a bit. Mscoree (talk) 22:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I could agree to a reduced coalition. Reduce it to only the nations under a direct threat from Ottoman influence. Cour *talk* 22:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I do respectfully point out that the Normans were not in the line of fire from the Seljuk Turks yet they still went on the First Crusade anyway. Simply not being close to the problemd does not mean one cannot try to solve it firsthand.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:17, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Difference being that the Normans also controlled England, and large populations, and could travel via sea. Austria's many vassals can only travel through land, and don't have large populations.

22:59, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Venice is shipping all of the German soldiers via sea, just like how Venice shipped 100,000 Germans in previous wars. Mscoree (talk) 23:02, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

100,000! Hot damn, that's a lot! I think everything Ms is saying makes sense. *stifles giggle*

23:03, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if you are serious or not, but I'm trying to illustrate that previously Venice shipped 100,000 German soldiers, so they can do so again, especially since they have way more ships, and I'm not even sending that many men. Mscoree (talk) 23:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, no seriously.

Here are the arguments I've heard in favor of letting this war continue: And here are the ones against: Which I particulary have a problem with because it's the same type of thing that caused the GCC and every other kind of shit that ended PM2.
 * It's logical, because that many troops can and, historically, have been moved through Europe to attack the Mid East.
 * It works, because some of those Crusades did actually succeed (The first three especially).
 * It's somewhat strange, yes, as the Muslims have kicked the Christians out of their last city in the Holy Land, but it still works as this is there to save a Christian force, ie the Romans. Note that the Genoese and the Venetians did attempt something like this in OTL- they failed. However, with more men, it is plausible.
 * "GOD AND ALIEN SPACE BATS AND DEAATH TO MSCOVITES!"

In conclusion, Fed, you're reverting to your Caliphial self.

23:10, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

In defense of my vassals, they hardly contribute to the algorithm, and in some cases even hurt our side. If you really want me to remove them I will though. Most of them are also from Swabia too, an area that historically supported crusades and efforts into the Middle East. Anyway, for the sake of ending the arguing, we have agreed to remove all Austrian/German vassals except the two belonging to Bohemia. Mscoree (talk) 23:26, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

My points against:

To summarise, the idea that a Crusade can be called just for the lolz 200 years after the last real Crusade is completely and absolutely ludicruous; there is no reason to do it, there is little true incentive to anybody but Venice and Byzantium, and all in all, it would put together wayy too many enemies.
 * 1) It is implausible for nations to send troops in a crusade 200 years after the last crusade with little incentive (except OMIGOD THEY EBUL MOZLEMZ KILL and an island in the Ionian Isles as if that was a legitimate incentive ever), with nations whose inhabitants have not seen a Muslim since 1099 (Brandenburg for one) sending troops just because Ms controls them.
 * 2) All of Europe unifying against a common threat when half of it was at the other halve's throat just five years before; especially when, unlike the OTL Turkish wars Ms and his  puppets  friends with the exact same arguments that all act in perpect coordination were after a series of extremely offensive manouevres by the Ottomans; meanwhile, IATL the Ottoman Empire has not only been peaceful but rather cooperative with the Christians.
 * 3) A magical pan-European crusade, when after the fall of Acre every single Crusade was extremely small and localised.
 * 4) There is no particular reason for Christian states to want to weaken the Ottomans, given that they are not a current threat to anybody at all (they opened to negotiations with the Byzantines) ffs

Am I really the one "reverting to Caliphal self"? Because last time I checked, I'm not the one painting his colour across the land implausibly fast, nor am I the one vassalspamming in order to win a war...Fed (talk) 23:41, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well... Fed. That's "lulz". Spell it right, God...
 * 1) Actually, it was just 175 years. Also. EBUL MOZLEMZ KILLL.
 * 2) That's  sockpuppets . Make it clear.
 * 3) Was it Acre?
 * 4) For the shit and giggles.

You're right.

REX! STOP EMULATING THE CALIPHATE!

01:29, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Fed this isn't even a crusade in the sense you think. It's basically just called that here for lack of a better name. Brandenburg is in a personal union with me, so naturely I would have them send aid, just like how Poland and Lithuania both sent aid against Muscovy. This isn't all of Europe, it's three independent de jure realms, as I said above. Also we definitely do have reasons, as we heavily detailed. It has nothing to do with "OMIGOD THEY EBUL MOZLEMZ KILL", in fact they're hardly religious reasons at all. Also if you want to report me for sockpuppeting go ahead on the TSPTF talk page. Seems you finally have enough proof to do so. Mscoree (talk) 01:39, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion this war is fine. However, the sheer number of Austrian and Venetian vassals needs to be lessened slightly. Hence the recent event. Its also about time Gorz and Salzburg unite with Austria.

My African outpost and conflicting mods
As some May or may not be aware, I, as Hamburg, have been investing in exploration down the African coast for years, finally setting up an outpost in otl Monrovia, Liberia in 1444. For the past few years it has served as a stop for my ships to and from the Oyo. Just now, Ms has decided to retcon it. I immediately got on chat to ask him about.

When I did, I was asked by Feud to talk. He was concerned by my posts of mapping the Kongo, saying only Castile has the ability at the moment to reach said region. We agreed and I wasn't going to make any more mention of it until years from now when it becomes more viable to reach the area.

I then contacted Ms, who appeared to be in a pm with feud as well, about it. He told me that I couldn't set up an outpost "at this time" and he and Feud both agreed that its implausible. I then reached Feud, and he replied he never said yes or no. Please note: Feud did later say an outpost further north might make everyone happy.

Meanwhile, Oldenburg has an outpost in Greenland.





What I want is a solution.

Firstly, please stop using Oldenburg as some sort of evidence backing up your claims in Africa. Oldenburg has ONE small whaling post in Greenland, which consists of one warehouse, one customs house and a few actual houses; all made with the permission of the UNC. There is a fundamental difference between Oldenburg's whaling post in Greenland and your alleged post in Africa, namely, the length of time that Europeans have known about and visited it. The Norse settled Greenland in the 980s: over four hundred years before the game even started. Europeans have only been exploring that far south down the coast of Africa for a very short while, therefore knowledge of it is still quite limited (not necessarily in terms of who knows it, but in terms of how much is known about it).

I agree that for now, only Castille should be able to build trading posts that far south. Naturally, this will change with time. I think if your outpost was North of that band of grey countries, then it would be more acceptable. Callumthered (talk) 06:20, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

And what about Portugal? i have been doing pretty much what the Portuguese have done in OTL more or less on schedule, and the Portuguese already had trading posts in Africa of 1445.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:37, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

You're right, Portugal should probably also be allowed to have outposts south of the grey band at this time. So in my opinion, Castille and Portugal should be the only two nations allowed to have trading posts south of the grey band of nations until 1460 ish. Maybe sooner. Although I don't think those posts should expand to encompass large territory. Callumthered (talk) 08:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry guy, when I was responding to you I was in the middle of a conversation on the moderator page. When I asked Feud on there he said no, so I'm not sure what's going on. Mscoree (talk) 13:08, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, Cal. Oldenburg has one small outpost in Greenland (yes, I also know of the Norse settling there.) just as Hamburg has one small outpost in Africa. I have worked to expand Hamburgs reach via sending explorations (some in conjunction with Venice) down the coast for years, and with the African market proving it can be a worthwhile investment. I chose otl Monrovia, Liberia because it was situated about midway between the Oyo and those northern nations, and had no intentions of expanding it until we get further into the colonial age.

So what's going on? Any other mods care to input, as here one says no and another says he doesn't mind?

I only have an issue with how far south it is. In my humble opinion, you could probably have as many as three outposts (North of the grey band) so long as you're sensible about them (and you sound like you would be). I think the best course of action is to have your outpost north of the grey band, wait a decade, continue exploring, and then establish one in Liberia. (By the way, I only stressed the "one"ness of my Greenlandic outpost because I thought you were questioning its legitimacy). I don't think ten years could have that much impact. It's not like all the land in Africa will be gone by then. Callumthered (talk) 01:07, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Sicily
Is Sicily a part of Aragon or independent? It seems everyone I ask says something different, and I can already see an argument forming in the map issues section. So I ask here for everyone's thoughts on the matter. Mscoree (talk) 16:28, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well long time ago they split, and also Aragon never post as Sicily because he does not own that island, and fyi i stat the vassalization of Sicily in 1417, 33 years ago!!!!! Quashi (talk) 16:41, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I do post as Sicily. It is an integrated nation in the Crown of Aragon, which includes Navarre, Aragon, Sardinia, and Sicily. Sicily and Aragon have been in personal union since the death of Martin of Aragon and the accession of Martin of Sicily to the combined thrones of Aragon and Sicily. Therefore whenever I post as Aragon I also post as Sicily. Anyway I don't want to start a war so if you could kindly stop infringing on Aragon's rights as a sovereign state that would be great. Also I'd like to point out that Sicily is culturally closer to Aragon at this point in time as Sicily and Italy have always had their differences due to Sicilian isolation and ancient Greek influence over Sicily. tl;dr Sicily and Aragon have been one nation for nearly half a century and I don't want a war.

17:01, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

No, you post this and kill ur king Martin of Aragon in 1402:

§    <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Aragon expands military and infrastructure. Martin of Aragon dies and he is succeeded by his son Martin of Sicily. Sicily and Aragon are now in personal union. Martin II announces that he will be succeeded by whatever monarch of Navarre, since he does not have a successor. This resolves the succession crisis. Aragon continues to influence the islands of Corsica and Sardinia, now having established proper control over half of each island. <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Aragon also expands north into unorganized Basque territory.

 § <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">(*Hang on. How can Martin of Aragon just fall down dead? In the real life timeline he didn't die until 1409? And he died while at Sardinia. Additionally, he has a heir, Peter, as he didn't die because the game starts at beginning of 1400 right?  <span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">ASB?*) 

§   '<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">Well, this is not OTL. He could have very well have died in 1402. ''<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">Still, Martin has a successor. '''

§    '''<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">Fun fact, Aragon is now ruled by the King of Sicily. Scraw has eliminated himself from the game! '''

§    '''<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;border:1ptnonewindowtext;padding:0cm;">Well, he can stay, but he is going to have to share his monarchy with DatStar. '''

And then in 1407:

This is Sicily's post in 1411: So is no way that Aragon rule over Sicily, and in the year of 1417 DatStar stop posting, so i start the vassalization of Sicily that same year, and im doing that for 33 years, i belive is fair the mods let me complete the process. Quashi (talk) 20:14, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aragon and Navarre expand military. Sardinia is fully stabilized. Expansion into Libya continues. Economic influence over Carthage continues to expand. Trade arrangements are signed with the leader of Carthage. The navy begins to be improved. I have found a way to resolve my whole succession nonsense with Sicily. So, here's how it'll work. Peter is currently nine (ten?) years old. His regent will be Charles III of Navarre. Once he comes of age (15), he will become the king of Sicily and Charles of Navarre and Aragon. Sicily will just be Sicily and Aragon will cease claiming Sicily. May God damn European succession problems and other users messing your shit up to hell. That is all.
 * Sicily expands its naval forces. Due to the cultural differences with Aragon, it is decided to re-split the two nations after the heir comes of age. However, Sicily would like to maintain close relations with Aragon.

Taken out of context much? Dynastic union is the key word here. Now again, I don't want to fight you and I don't think you want a war either, so I think it's best if both of us let it go and recognize Sicily as a nation independent of both our nations. It seems like a fair compromise since neither of us will control it.

20:21, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Expansion
How does one go about expanding in to an area marked as dark grey on the map? Is an algorithm needed and if not, what are the rules for how much can be taken per year?Ozymandias2 (talk) 20:43, March 23, 2014 (UTC)