Talk:Saguenay War (1983: Doomsday)

Archive (Note: I think this is the first Doomsday article that needed an archive besides the portal page.)

Hopefully this conclusion will be acceptable for everyone
Okay, there are lots of opinions and lots of possibilities. I though, as progenitor of this idea, that I should try to resolve them into one master plan that will (hopefully) be acceptable for everyone.
 * Point 1: After the initial Republican Guard forces that came to aid Saguenay, more Superior armies start arriving about early October, mainly by the St. Lawrence.
 * Point 2: Saguenay's forces are not concentrated in Gaspe; some are in Saguenay proper. Canada also stages raids against Saguenay proper territory. Some are successful, others less so, but the result is that more troops from Gaspe are brought back to Saguenay, and when the Canadians destroy Saguenay's secret naval base, getting troops to Gaspe suddenly becomes a lot harder.
 * Point 3: Saguenay forces also attack north Quebecl; though this is largely just pillaging, and not actually conquering.
 * Point 4: After the election on the 6th, the Canada First Party wins. They introduce military reforms such as mass conscription and convert many factories to military ends.
 * Point 5: Aroostook (which many seem to have forgot about) decides to eventually enter the war on the Canadian side. Their forces aren't that large, but Canada decides to take all the help she can get.
 * Point 6: For their major offensive, the Canadian army decides to wait for Spring. The reason? Their conscripts will be more trained, and ADC reinforcements will probably have arrived by then.
 * The Showdown: Canada begins its invasion in the spring. All winter, Superior reinforcements haven't been able to use the St. Lawrence, so supplies and whatnot are not in abundance. However they are still a match for Canada. When Canada begins its invasion, they are ready. Canada pushes forward to the city of Gaspe, the major city of the region. When they finally get there, they face a battle like Stalingrad; they fight for every building, every street, etc etc. They finally get the enemy forces out of Gaspe (the city), but there are still lots of forces on the peninsula.

However, an armistice is called by the Saguenay. They meet with the Canadians and ask the international community for mediation. ADC nations, obviously not wanting to send more troops, urge Canada to accept mediation. The major parties of the war (Saguenay, Superior, Canada, some ADC nations) meet with LoN representatives. They sign the treaty of Bermuda (they don't have to meet in Bermuda, I just picked somewhere not involved and close by).

This treaty states that Saguenay is recognised by the LoN and may apply for membership, same with Superior. Gaspe is returned to Canada, and Canada must allow LoN agents to investigate the Canada First Party to find out whether they are responsible for the assassination. A group of LoN peacekeepers will be stationed at the border, as well as in Gaspe. Saguenay is granted a corridor of territory in order to have official sea access (sort of like Poland after WWI). Canada drops claims on the coastal regions of Lakes Huron and Superior. Canada is allowed to expand along the St. Lawrence, and Saguenay must stop supplying the Lawrence Raiders. Thus, an uneasy peace comes over the North American region. --DarthEinstein 13:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm supportive of most of the ideas. Mitro 13:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

And I support ALL of them. --Yankovic270 13:57, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I still feel like your optimism for Superior's forces is too high, and your cynicism of Canadian forces too low. But like Mitro, I'm supportive of MOST of the ideas. Louisiannan 14:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Supportive of the principle but worried that we are over optimistic not only about Superior's forces but everyones, including the Celtic Alliance. Given the need for full engagement in food production across the northern hemisphere are we ahead of ourselves in relation to military affairs? Though military conscription is compulsory in the Alliance much of the work undertaken relates to food production, social care, and medicine.Mjdoch 15:49 September 30, 2009 (GMT)


 * I am fine with every part except where Canada gets to expand into the St. Lawrence region, and Aroostook joining the war on the side of Canada. Saguenay would not accept the idea of being surrounded on three-sides by what has become its arch-enemy, and woul argue that its ethnic ties to the region make it rightfully theirs. Aroostook............they just don't seem to really have a real reason to go to war. Unless there was a direct attack against them, or something similar to the reason the United States entered the war in WWI, they probably would prefer to be neutral, and send aid to Canada, or like previously suggested, allow volunteers to fight on both sides similar to the Spanish Civil War.


 * On another note, the minute Superior hears that the ADC is going to deploy, they are going to get as many men (and supplies) up to Gaspe and Saguenay as possible. I forget the numbers that I had listed previously, but at most they would double, possibly an increase in 50%. Supplies can also still reach the troops, it is just not in bulk, or efficent. The methods are similar to how the Germans managed to send supplies during the Winters in Russia throughout WWII. Though it is archaic, it will make sure that there is no extreme shortage, but rather a level that would request moderation. Lahbas 14:59, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Lahbas that Aroostook would not join the war, though they would be more supportive of Canada in the long run and any volunteers Saguenay and Superior get would be a few diehard French-Canadians. I agree that Saguenay would hate to have the St. Lawrence under Canadian control but it seems to be one of those situations they can do little about.  Canada outnumbers them in population by at least 4 to 1, plus Superior could only keep it forces there for a limited time and I doubt the Superior people would support keeping a significant amount of their military there just so another nation can get the land.  Furthermore the LoN is going to be a lot more sympathetic to a nation that existed pre-Doomsday and a nation that is on their high council.  A compromise might be having the area come under LoN jurisdiction with the former combatants working together to clear out the Lawrence Raiders and then putting a LoN sponsored state in the region (similar to the MSP or RZA).
 * I, however, still disagree with you about the size of Superior's population and the forces they can commit to the region. Superior is starting to look similar to some of the early versions of New Britain (no offense Bob), but in this case I'm going to defer to Darth's judgment at least on the case of Superior troop levels.  As I have said before there is just way too many people involved in this idea and since this was originally Darth's idea I think we should all let him have the final word on what goes into the war, unless someone can prove by using a reliable external source that he is wrong.  Mitro 15:30, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, so my conclusion seems to generally accepted, save on the Aroostook issue and the part about Canada expanding into the St. Lawrence. About Aroostook, I was basing its involvment off a recent WCRB news headline (see the main page, saying that Aroostook was angry at Saguenay for their support of the Lawrence Raiders. I don't mind so much about the issue, though, so if others think it should stay neutral I'm fine.


 * About the St. Lawrence, Saguenay and Superior really have no basis to expand there. The successor of the Quebec government is the Gaspe government, which is part of Canada, and Canada was the main player in opposing the Lawrence Raiders (Aroostook helped too).


 * And since no one objected about this point, I take it that the negotiations happening in Bermuda is fine with everyone? And one final thing: We need a Canada First Party leader. I was going to use Rick Hillier, but apparently he's in south Germany at Doomsday so someone else is needed. If we can't find anyone else, then I suppose we can say he returned to Canada (he would have had some incentive, as he is a native Newfoundlander), but someone actually in eastern Canada at Doomsday would be preferable. --DarthEinstein 17:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * But Again, Canada would then surround Saguenay on three sides, which for them I would think would be unexceptable. Possibly make it a demilitarized zone? That or an independent state in its own right, under the administration of the LON, similar to Kosovo before 2007. I don't really to be honest known who that issue would be resolved. Any possible solution seems to me like the Daytona Accords in regards to the Balkans. Lahbas 17:16, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Canada already surrounds Saguenay on 3 sides according to the map on the Canada page. While its tentative control rather than the solid control of the maritimes, they still control the area, and with the peace agreement basically establishing the status quo, Canada wouldn't cede part of their territory. They may renounce claims to areas they don't control, but they wouldn't cede anything.--Oerwinde 18:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Where is Marcpasquin for all this? Isn't he from OTL Saguenay? I would like to get his perspective on all this. Mitro 17:26, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Global Map, Canada is almost ready to envelope Saguenay, having already made it half-way around, while much of its established territory is still lawless. I think that it would be in the best interests of those involved if Quebec were givern autonomy from the Canadian government, though not independence, and be jointly administrated by Canada and the LON. This would, in a way, assuage Saguenay from having to deal with pure Canadian forces around its nation. At the same time, Canada would really not be able to complain, because it is simply allowing LON administration of a state that technically "exists", but remains largely ungovernable. The Lawrence Raiders would begin to be cleared out by forces from Superior (most of whom are returning home), the Celtic Alliance, Canada, and Aroostook. Saguenay would be blocked by Canada in any regard, though it would likely end its aid to them.

Can we end this war, please? its getting a bit multinational in sclace, with the ADC deploying. i agree with Darth's ideas for ending this. --HAD 09:59, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Black op
An interesting idea that I had earlier however, is based off of plans I was reading about WWII. Is it possible for the Republican Guard to hop into St. John, capture the leadership of the Canada First Party, and bring them to trial in Saguenay? That, or they are used as a barganing chip in negotiations. Lahbas 20:21, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * That I think is too action movie-ish to be plausible. Yeah I have heard of plans like that before, but I can't think of any time in history that such a plan was successful.  Just too many variables to consider, too many things that can go wrong (I mean come on the Canadian military and security can't be that useless or the RG that good).  And who are the leaders of the CFP?  The Prime Minister, the movers and shakers in Parliment, the head of the party organization, or the financers?  And what evidence does Saguenay and Superior really have that the CFP were behind the assasination, the assasin was just a member of the party.  If a registered Republican killed President Obama today, would that really mean the Republican party was behind the assasination?  With little probable cause if Superior was successful the LoN would explode in outrage and Saguenay would suffer the brunt of it while Superior suffers minimal damage.  Any trial meanwhile would be a farce due to the lack of evidence (plus any "confessions" would assume to be forced).  Let investigations and trials happen after the war.  Mitro 22:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not that fake. This is plan for the British that would have lead to the assasination of Hitler:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Foxley

Such a plan could have succeeded, but the British were fearful of making Hitler a martyr to the Nazi cause, and that anyone who would take his place would run the war better than he.

Thinking on the topic more, I think you are right in regards to my initial proposal. There would be no point kidnapping members of the Canada First Party, since no major connection can be drawn. However, there is the possibility of the Republican Guard being tasked to "remove" high ranking officers in the Canadian Army and Navy, for strategic purposes. Though it may be looked down upon, it could be considered "justified" given that it is war, just like shooting down Yamato's plan was "justified" for the Americans during the Pacific Conflict. Lahbas 01:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said the WWII plan was fake, I said your plan was implausibe and I also said I couldn't think of OTL plans that were ever successful. Also while "all is fair in love and war" intenionally killing high ranking officers won't give Superior any friends in the world.  If Superior really wants to be accepted to the LoN as you suggested before, if such a plan was ever discovered it be a major black eye for them.  Mitro 01:52, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be more interesting if the Canada First Party actually was behind the assassination of Tremblay. Maybe it was orchestrated like the Reichstag Fire to provoke Sanguenay and catapult the CFP to power. There are bound to be people in the CFP ruthless enough to carry this plan out. If the hypothetical commando raid happens it could fail in its main objective, but succeed in finding this information. I think pretty much everyone who jears about it would be outraged. If they found out that the war was started with fraud, the Canadian's allies might turn on them. Just an idea, of course. --Yankovic270 03:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure on whether to support that idea or not. For one, I agree it would be interesting for such a development. Throwing the Canada First Party out of politics and turning them into a pariah would definitely help the images of Saguenay and Superior, and not necessarily hurt that of Canada (since it was done outside of the government). At the same time, it would allow for Canada to remain on the world stage, since it is likely that the CFP will withdraw Canada into isolationism following the conclusion of the conflict.


 * But then there are the opinions of others that I must consider, and I doubt this idea would pass. A commando operation would not be searching through files the same time it is meant to capture five high level politicians. As a compromise, might we have a spy network in St. John that uncovers some dirty connections between the assasin and the CFP? If you guys say no, then fine. Lahbas 03:21, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

That is a big YES on my part. As a left-winger I despise parties founded (at least partially) by the military. That reminds me too much of how the Nazi Party got started up. And this new information may be just the thing to spice up the war. I want the CFP just as dead as the Mexico Primero Party. We could have the leader of the CFP (lets give him the nickname of The General until we figure out who he is) commit suicide before he is captured. --Yankovic270 03:38, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Bias should not be part of the decision making, you should know. Lahbas 03:41, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

The "rabid anti-Canadian" part was a joke. Sorry if it was misunderstood. --Yankovic270 03:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * When did the CFP become founded by the military? Also may I remind you that it was Saguenay that attacked first and Superior that joined the war on their side despite not being attacked or threatened by Canada.  Yankovic, for someone who claims to be "left-wing" you sure picked on odd side to root for.  Mitro 13:13, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * He's referring to Rick Hiller, who Darth Einstein suggested be the creator of the Canada First Party. Anyway, the idea would have to be accepted by Darth Einstein for their to be any foundation, so I wait for his comments on the matter. Lahbas 17:00, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah IC, damn this page is getting too long. Still Darth also found out he would be in Germany in Doomsday which means he can't be the founder, we need a new guy.  Mitro 17:15, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

What about Charles H. Belzile? The Commanding Officer of the Canadian Land Forces Command, the official name for the Canadian Army. --Yankovic270 18:28, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I actually like that choice. He could have survived Doomsday while at St. Hubert in Quebec, though that is questionable. His possible return time to Canada is also very much in line with the establishment of the Canada First Party in 1991. Lahbas 19:55, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Thank You. That means a lot to me. And Belzile, as the previous supreme commander of the army, would have quite a few supporters in the army. Give these people weapons and Voila! Instant enforcers. And in keeping with my theme of comparing the CFP to the Nazis, what would the Swatstika-analog logo be? I allready know what the derogatory term for a CFP member would be. "Firster" or something along those lines. --Yankovic270 20:50, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I did not find out that Hillier was in Germany, that would be Oerwinde. And I did not suggest that he be the creator, though he could be, but I suggested that he be the current leader.


 * About Belzile, I kind of did not want two French Canadian PMs in a row, but if he's the best we got, then I suppose we should go with him. Looking at him, he is a bit old, 76, and with a likely lowering of life expectancy I'm not sure whether he would be alive or in any condition to lead a nation. I decided to look at some chiefs of the Canadian Defence staff. See this page for the whole list. I think Natynczyk and Murray are our most likely candidates. Check it out and tell me your ideas.


 * And let me be clear: the Canada First Party is not the Nazi party. They are not interning French Canadians in concentration camps, or stopping free speech, or laughing manically behind the scenes and plotting to take over the world. Under them, Canada would be more heavily governed, true, and they are right-wing, true, but... they are not Nazi.


 * About the capture of the "General", it seems unlikely. I can think of no major wars in which the leader of one country was actually kidnapped by the enemy. Obviously, there would be spying by both sides, though, but I would like to say this: the assassin of the Saguenay Prime Minister was not following orders of the party, though he was a member.


 * Seems Lahbas isnt the only one who writes a lot. :)--DarthEinstein 21:03, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Very well. I only wanted the CFP to incorperate Nazi-like traits, like the creation of a crisis to get into power, and the overtly militristic themes of the regime. But I also don't think the CFP would create a French Canadian holocaustmfor a simple reason. They did not have time for one. The Nazis needed years of indoctrinating the masses with propaganda. Time is a luxury thusly denied by the pre-existing War. And what would be a worse way to weaken French Canadian ties to the government than to try to round up and kill them. And it would provide the Sanguenayans with ANOTHER justification for the war. --Yankovic270 21:24, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait!!! What would happen is intelligence learned where the Canadian Counter-Attack was going to be lead? That would be another possible twist. Something along the lines of D-Day, without the diversion of German forces to Calais. (Historically, the Allies succeeded in making Hitler believe the invasion was going to be at Calais using dummy fleets. Despite the protests of his generals, the experianced units were moved there. Even as the invasion was ongoing, Hitler refused to allow them to move, believing that D-Day was a diversion for the real invasion at Calais) Lahbas 21:27, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * What if... the Canadians leaked false intelligence of a plan to invade Saguenay proper instead of Gaspesie, leaving less forces there for a strike? That would be like a D-Day with the diversion of German forces to Calais. --DarthEinstein 22:43, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Good idea, but I still think my idea has a shot. Drop all refrences to Nazism, but it wasen't confirmed nor denied that the CFP leadership wasen't involved in the assassination. That was left ambiguous. --Yankovic270 21:32, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * True, it was left ambiguous, intentionally. If Saguenay knew absolutely for sure that the CFP was not involved, then they might not attack, for fear of further isolating themselves from the international community. However, behind the scenes (on the talk pages) I did say that they were not involved. But how about a compromise. How about, there is a certain group of members that are responsible, though not including the leadership. Perhaps this group could even try to overthrow the government of Canada, or do terrorist attacks on Saguenay. The Republican Guard could capture some members of this group, put them to trial in Saguenay courts, and have them executed (is there capital punishment in Saguenay?). --DarthEinstein 22:43, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * That would open a whole can of worms you know? You would have investigations going into the Canada First Party, regardless if they are guilty or not. Lahbas 23:02, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

And what would happen if the coup by the more guilty CFP members suceeded? --Yankovic270 23:34, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I doubt they would succeed, as they do not control the majority of the party. That is evident, because they are not the party leaders. But of course they would not try if they did not have a chance of success. This would probably happen sometime in the winter months, as the radicals would not want to do this while Canada's forces are campaigning, because they want to win the war too. If the government wins, then they would get an increased legitimacy because they can say that they have now eliminated those who actually did carry out the assassination. --DarthEinstein 00:13, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Creator
Before (too late!) this idea gets carried very, very far, I want to ask whether anyone has contacted Marc Pasquin about it. He created Saguenay, and on a very basic level it is "his"; at least, I'd assume his permission would be necessary to add a major war to the canon. This is especially true with Saguenay as the main aggressor in the war; for all we know, the Saguenayan government as he envisioned it would never involve themselves in such an undertaking. Now, a ton of writing on the war already exists, and IMO is quite good. Marc's reasonable and would probably not want to waste all that work. But it's common courtesy to get his permission before messing up his end of the sandbox so thoroughly. Benkarnell 01:51, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I left a message on Marc's page about the war, but haven't heard any opinions from him as of yet. Mitro 14:02, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * All right then, we'll just keep this page a proposal until it gets his approval. I have no objections. --DarthEinstein 16:08, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll try to find him using other channels. Honestly, I think the whole thing is extremely cool, but it would be a shame if it did not fit with what he had in mind for Saugenay.  Benkarnell 21:35, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Marc has not responded to my email. Benkarnell 02:26, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

ANZC, SAC response
How are the major powers of the world responding to the war? My first thought is that both would be naturally sympathetic to Canada, for reasons already explained. Canada is a founding member of the LoN, and even though the LoN is dominated by Australia-NZ and South America, Canada has weilded enough clout to prevent recognition of Saugenay despite its being a healthy, functioning country. Furthermore, great powers are normally suspicious of any events that rock the boat. Finally, the leaders in both southern continents have been almost desperate in recent years to find common ground; stability in North America is definitely something they agree on. On the other hand, while the leaders in South America would generally support Canada, the rank and file, and populist politicians like Chavez, are likely to see it as just another (relatively) rich Anglo nation. Neither ANZ nor SAC are likely to provide any support more concrete than words and maybe small teams of diplomats. But if the war drags on, both may be persuaded to send material help to Canada. I agree with Dan that Saugenay's best bet is to get the LoN involved as soon as possible and take what it can while it's ahead! Benkarnell 05:52, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

[Edit] I'll add that the Nordic Union shouldn't be underestimated. It's definitely more focused on internal matters than external, certainly, but it's also one of the larger and wealthier power blocs of the world at this point. If it feels that ADF security is being threatened, it could really make things difficult for Saugenay. Eventually. (It would definitely take a while.) Benkarnell 06:01, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the most likely outcome of this war is LoN inspired peace. However, there has been implications that a rift is growing between the ANZC and SAC and I think the fact that they have done nothing as of yet (which OTL is because we haven't written anything yet) should be seen as a sign that the rift is starting to become a problem.  In the "Aftermath" section of this article we should mention that the fact that the LoN took so long to intervene was because the two power blocs were unable to work in concert.  Mitro 14:05, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. If you look up and see my conclusion that I wrote, calling for international mediation is exactly what Saguenay will do. However, where the large power blocs are concerned, remember that Canada isn't First World here. I'm not actually sure how interested nations outside of the ADC would be about it. --DarthEinstein 16:12, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's not at all surprising that the SAC and ANZ aren't involved. Canada's not an ally of either one, after all, and it's awfully far away from either one of them.  Is Canada closer to either power in any meaningful way?  The SAC has the advantage of proximity, while the ANZC has a shared culture & language.  If it were established that Canada was a close ally of the South American bloc, for example, It might be possible that the ANZ would be tempted to support Saugenay to increase its power in the region.  But that would really be a whole lot of expense for very little gain.  A more likely scenario would be that each great power would wait it out until one side was definitely winning, and then race to support the winner and thus increase its own influence in the region at the expense of the other.  Barring that, they seem much more likely to be sympathetic to the side that was the non-aggressor, and which will promote greater stability (and thus more reliable future trade): Canada.  Benkarnell 21:43, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Election
Since no one responded to my suggestions about the leader of the Canada First Party, I have decided to use Walter Natynczyk, current OTL Chief of the Defence Staff for Canada. --DarthEinstein 21:36, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Vermont
I just read the Vermont page, and I've decided that it would make a better place for the peace talks after the war than Bermuda as I said earlier. --DarthEinstein 14:45, October 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you use Vermont for the peace talks, it might be worth exploring the diplomatic angle, and how Vermont, as the Switzerland of the region, relates to each of the parties, and whether it merely gives them a place to settle their dispute or plays an active role in resolving it.--BrianD 03:59, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you're the author of that article, what do you think? --DarthEinstein 18:18, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Vermont holds its neutrality, and what it sees as its obligation to help negotiate peace, in the highest importance. It wants to have good relations with all countries, so it can be in a position to talk with any nation about sticky issues and be heard. This does not mean it approves of whatever those countries may do but believes that being on good terms with those countries and keeping lines of communication open will work best when it comes to hashing out difficult and complex situations, like the Saguenay war. Vermont's relations with Saguenay are complicated, given the nation's history with warlords and groups believed to be the Lawrence Raiders or associated with them. But Vermont thinks its interests, and the entire region's interests, are better served by it acting as a neutral party, not picking a side but helping everyone negotiate a peace that they can live with, and that will benefit all of the survivor states in the region. Does that make sense?--BrianD 21:58, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, not every state can be on one side or the other. How about when Saguenay proposes international mediation, several governments, including Vermont, volunteer cities to be used for meeting, negotiating and signing the treaty. Because of its proximity to the nations involved and its neutrality, Vermont is picked and they sign the treaty of ...er, Manchester. --DarthEinstein 23:29, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Vermont would agree to that, and I would go along with it. Might Vermont also be asked to help send peacekeepers into the Gaspe region, or have any such involvement (politely) declined by the LoN as Vermont is not (yet) a member?--BrianD 03:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, does it have troops to spare? If so, then perhaps it would. Also, perhaps it would be allowed in to the LoN because of its efforts in mediating the conflict. --DarthEinstein 04:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it would be able to spare some military troops for peacekeeping purposes, especially since warlords and the Lawrence raiders are no longer a threat.--BrianD 05:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Status
has the war ended?--HAD 15:43, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, its theres just nothing noteworthy happening at this time. I think it sposed to be ending in the spring.--Oerwinde 16:48, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I've been meaning to write some more but I've been busy lately. I'll make a sort of "war update" soon. --DarthEinstein 17:02, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Administration of Gaspe

 * Assuming at this point that Saguenay and Superior have effectively managed to completely occupy the Gaspe peninsula, can we have them establish an local administration? I was thinking of an independent nation, which would have elections in either December or January, following a mixed-presidential system similar to France. At the same time, Superior and Saguenay probably have begun an advance into New Brunswick, though limited to taking strategic assets within the territory. Lahbas 02:25, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * That could work, to an extent. I'm not sure whether they would have elections, but creating a puppet state seems plausible. Also by this time Canada has mostly got their act together defense-wise, though definitely not attack-wise. Besides, any large shift of the Saguenay and Superior armies would leave Saguenay proper less defended. Also you might have missed it but in the news I did mention that the Canadian navy destroyed the Saguenay naval base a week or so ago. I'm (hopefully) going to do some serious work on the Saguenay war this weekend. --DarthEinstein 03:09, November 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the RSA (Republic of Superior Army) is extremely mobile, largely being based on helicopter transport, similar to the United States in Vietnam. However, this advantage will certainly be lost by the time the Winter storms fall in, though it aids in some of their logistical problems now that I think about it. A number of bases along the St. Lawrence were the helicopters refuel, then move on to the next base, until the reach Saguenay or Gaspe. Just for the know-how, these are made up of modernized UH-1 Iroquois, UH-60 Black Hawks, and CH-53 Sea Stallions. Heavier equipment is handled by C-5 Galaxies.


 * Alright, this is how I see the war now, or at least a short time in the future. The Gaspe Peninsula, while stil under occupation, has been given partial independence as the Republic of St. Lawrence. Parts of New Brunswick are under occupation, but the Republic of Superior has decided to cement its holdings in Gaspe rather than continue to advance. Thoguh there has been no general advance in the Western Theater, Saguenay has managed to occupy a significant amount of land. The red sectors are actually RSA forts that act as a lifeline for the RSA forces in the Gaspe Peninsula, i.e., refueling stations for transport helicopters shuttling supplies and troops eastward. Lahbas 08:11, November 5, 2009 (UTC)




 * I think you're overestimating Saguenay and Superior's power and underestimating Canada's. Though Canada was taken by surprise, Saguenay has decided to hold onto what it has and not overextend itself. I did say that on the western front they did not advance, they just attacked in small raids to disrupt Canadian power. On the western front it is a stalemate so far, with most of the fighting going on in raids on both sides of the border to destabilise the other. Full-scale occupation is not going on except in the Gaspe peninsula. --DarthEinstein 17:08, November 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Link to the proposed administration in Gaspe. Lahbas 08:28, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

RSA Raid on Canadian Navy Base

 * Thought it would be interesting if a significant force went and attempted to destroy a number of Canadian ships, specifically its aircraft carriers. The attack on the base fails to meet all its objectives, but the facility is significantly damaged, and one of the aircraft carriers is sunk in the harbor. Lahbas 02:17, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

So is this raid the straw that broke the csmel's back? I don't know about you, but the Canadians have taken many severe, embarrasing defeats. Even my heavily militaristic Virginia has a breaking point (for morale). When will Canada reach its? --Yankovic270 02:39, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

The RSA hasn't declared war, as far as I know. They have only recognised Saguenay. And again I think you are underestimating Canada. --DarthEinstein 03:11, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Republic of Superior has been at war with Canada since September. Lahbas 04:15, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, it's not very realistic for such a small country to score so many endless victories against a much larger country on the latter's own territory. I know the UP is much more crowded now than pre-DD, refugees and all that, but it can't possibly have the manpower or the industrial capacity that Canada has.  DE is right - the element of surprise will have worn off by now, and the hard facts of numbers will now be playing a role.  Superior most likely sees Gaspe as a hostage that it can hold in exchange for Saguenay's full independence - they are unlikely to set up some kind of puppet state on the peninsula, since they're probably not going to keep it.  ANd who would they get to vote?  Gaspe is a loyal part of Canada: the people have no reason to participate in some sham splinter government created by the occupiers.  Benkarnell 04:20, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've already explained much of what in regards to the Gaspe Peninsula in the St. Lawrence article. Also, Superior is the economic and military equal of Canada in the region. The only problem is that it is not able to bring it full military force to bear in that theater. Lahbas 04:27, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now see, that does not make sense. How is Superior the economic military equal of Canada - without some serious "nation-wanking", that is?  Refugees and stabilization, sure - but Canada has had just as long as Superior to develop, and it started out much stronger.  Benkarnell 04:33, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it is because the economy has for a long time been geared as a war economy, over a domestic economy (because there really was no major chance of international trade until 2002, and even then transition has been slow since the only major path is through the St. Lawrence River zone). Also, the military is extremely mobile (helicopters being preferred over trucks in most operations), well trained, and well-armed. These are what I base my allegations on. Canada, meanwhile, has been living on a largely domestic economy for some time, and has not concentrated on its military. Canada will overpower Superior at some point in the future, but that may not be for a number of months, or at least the next year. (Based on the transition of the US economy in WWII). Lahbas 04:44, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

what carriers? the canadian military has no carriers, does it? and i agree with Benkarnell. SUperior has been having it fAR to easy.anyway, the Celtic Alliance has stated top deploy. --HAD 09:41, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Ben. S and S can't win this war in the long run and its ability to inflict large losses on Canada has ended.  Mitro 14:41, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

@Lahbas: You say that Canada has not focussed on their military. This is untrue. They have been fighting the Lawrence Raiders and have been petroling the border with Saguenay since at the latest the mid-90s. Canada is larger, less nuked, and has been in contact with the outside world for a long time. Add to that the fact that the militaristic Canada First Party is in power, and the time for Saguenay and Superior to take easy victories is at an end, though they will be able to hold on to Gaspe for a while. --DarthEinstein 17:04, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Oh and sorry about saying that the RSA hadn't declared war. I got them confused with something else. --DarthEinstein 17:11, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also don't forget they are a member of the ADC, which means they probably beefed up their military in response to the first Sicily crisis. Mitro 17:53, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Chicoutimi Air Raid
Anyone mind if I add this addition. Since we haven't seen much of the Celts in the conflict so far I decided to add some info about them. Would it be O.K if I could have them launch an air raid against Saguenay with some Mirage III and Saab Gripen fighter aircraft? Most of it would be aimed at the city of Chicoutimi. I figured it would take this long for the Celts to ship over the aircraft needed for this kind of operation. Is it ok if I add this to the WCRB NewsHour page?--ShutUpNavi 15:49, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. On a side note there has been a lot of info that has been written about this war on the news page that has not been added to this article.  Mitro 16:00, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * I can understand Mirage III's being in the Celtic Alliance air force, but not Saab Gripens (they did not enter the prototype stage until the late 1990's). Also, I am thinking of Superior launching counter raids against Newfoundland, with F-16's, F-18's, and recently developed F-20 Tigersharks. These wouldn't start for a week or two however. Lahbas 16:06, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * A brand new jet for Superior? Not sure how likely that is.  I would think that the Celtic Alliance would have access to the most advanced jets (even if they are fictional models) then Superior.  Mitro 01:20, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * This jet was being developed in the 80's before Doomsday, though historically it never entered service. Basically this had entered testing in 2000-2001 and is only since the beginning of 2008 entering service, though in limited amounts. The Saab Gripen that is suggested for the Celtice Alliance did not even appear on the drawing boards until the 1990's. Lahbas 01:31, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok but why would Superior have access to the designs or even a working model? As far as I can tell there were only 4 prototypes in existence before the proposal was dropped in 1986.  Now Northrop was located in California, one of the prototypes operated outside of Edwards Air Force Base in California in 1983 (which would have been destroyed probably on Doomsday) and the last surviving model (OTL) is in California.  I can't find any evidence that any info on the jets to make a mass produced model would be anywhere near Northern Michigan.  Mitro 03:57, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wel......something like it then. Lahbas 05:16, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Also the designs for the Gripen began in 1982 with approval from Swedish Parliament. As Sweden was not attacked on Doomsday I don't see why it wouldn't go into production eventually. Even if it was delayed it could still enter production around 2005.--ShutUpNavi 17:04, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Well what about the Saab Viggen? Brillant aircraft, in service with the RSAF in 1983, a well made, effective aircraft? or how about a Modinized F104? both Canada and Norawy used them in 1983.--HAD 15:28, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * O.K I'll use the Saab Viggen instead. Not sure about the F104 as it is an interceptor aircraft (i.e not good for ground attack). But perhaps it could find some role in the war.--ShutUpNavi 15:41, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

the CF-104 was a strike/recon version. the Candians operate them as there Main airrcraft, alongside CF-5's at the moment, i would presume.--HAD 16:01, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I have several points to make......

1) I though the Canadian Navy might have gotten a few of the Royal Navy's carriers. You really isn't a mention of the Royal Navy's composition in the Canada page, though I admit I forgot that if they did have any, they would have been lost at Halifax and Victoria.

2) I am growing unsure as to the size and intensity of the Celtic Alliance deployment, with the Second Sicilian War going on in the Mediterranean. Would they intervene there first to protect Greece?

3) The raid I envisioned was supposed to be a draw. Superior would succeed in sinking several of the docked vessels, but they would be driven off before they could finish the job, with quite a few of them becoming POWs.

4) I didn't say Canada wasn't a military power. It will take some time, however, to gear the economy back to it, and I don't believe they were heavily involved in the First Sicily Crisis like the European wing of the ADC. You mention the Raiders, but they have been a declining power outside of the central region for several years now, which might mean that Canada no longer required, and therefore spent, those resources. Lahbas 19:38, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not in position to respond to (1) or (3), so I'll just comment on the other two. (2) Chronologically, the Celtic Alliance convinced the ADC to aid Canada before war with Sicily broke out again.  The more southerly nations were very lukewarm in their response to the summons, though, probably because of their (justified!) fears of renewed war with Sicily and their desire to defend their home fronts.  So now the ADC is basically split between two wars, with Canada & the C.A. fighting in Saguenay, and the southern members fighting Sicily.  The C.A. is basically Ireland, with some smallish settlements in Scotland, Brittany, and sundry islands.  So it's not huge by any means, but chances are good that they certainly have some remnants of the British navy.  (4) I just think that being a large nation in a very rough world meant that Canada /had/ to be quite focused on defense, continually, for a while.  I don't see them letting their guard down as the Lawrence attacks subsided.  Benkarnell 22:02, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Benkarnell's points, and I'd like to add that Ireland and Canada are the two English-speaking members of the ADC, and there was quite a bit of Scottish and Irish immigration before Doomsday to the regions that the Canadian Remainder Provinces controls. So the link between them might be stronger than that with the other members. About the other two: (1) Much of Canada's navy does come from the pre-Doomsday navy, definitely. But carriers, I'm not sure about. Canada definitely has an air force, but I think that they would be able to land on dry land most of the time, so need for them wouldn't be very high. In regards to (3), I suppose such a battle could occur, as a draw. Though would they be able to get their ships their, as all of them would be based in the Great Lakes? It could be done, I suppose, but they do have to sail through two nuked cities; it would be fairly difficult. But all in all, it would be possible I think. Obviously both sides would be hurt. Both sides would probably proclaim a victory against the other, wartime propaganda being what it is. --DarthEinstein 22:33, November 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * When I had imagined the raid, it involved about 1500 men in helicopters descending upon the naval base, attempting to sabotage as many vessels as possible, including the principal naval facilities, and then retreating. While the por is significantly damaged, including quite a few of the vessels, including the flagship of the Canadian navy destroyed, many of the objectives are not met, and the attempted retreat results in over a third of the attacking force being captured. Lahbas 16:23, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * The outcome seems way too successful to be plausible, despite some failures. Mitro 01:18, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

i AGREE with Mitro. the CF's would intercept any heli asult. about aircraft: what about the Saab Viggen? --HAD 16:13, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure how to do this, so bear with me. Anglo-Canadians, most members of the Canada First Party, set up an insurgency against the occupation forces and the Republic of St. Lawrence under some "symbolic" name. However, they view the Franco-Canadian community as aiding, rather than resisting, the occupation. This is largely because of they prominent lack of action (though not complete) on the part of the Franco-Canadian community, participation in the "Milice Populaire" by Franco-Canadian nationalists, and cultural connections to the people to Saguenay. As a result, they also commit domestic terrorism against Franco-Canadian communities, though this creates a division among the insurgent forces themselves. At the same time, this creates problems for the Canadians. The ties to the Canada First Party in regards to the insurgents, especially those committed domestic terrorism, legitimizes the claims of the "S-S" League of the CFP being a terrorist orginisation. At the same time, those actions committed by the more radical wing of the insurgency would drive the Franco-Canadian community more in support of the Republic of St. Lawrence, feeling they have been betrayed by the Canadians (they would still hold animosity toward Saguenay and Superior however). Lahbas 16:23, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Assassination attempt?
In light of the recent statement by the Canadian Prime Minister (I cannot spell his last name for the life of me), I could easily see an angry supporter of the Anti-Canadian alliance assasinating the Prime Minister. And no, not with a pie to the face, but a gunshot or a bomb (Can you say Guy Fawkes?). There are bound to be people who disagree with the war. This number will undoubtably skyrocket as the number of defeats go up. In every warring nation there is allways dissent bubbling just below the surface. And this dissent might turn violent. --Yankovic270 23:53, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps an assassination attempt, but I don't want him actually dying. And also the number of defeats are not going up. Recently Canada started bombing Saguenay and the Saguenay naval base was recently destroyed. And his name is: Nat-ync-zyk. His name's Polish, I think. --DarthEinstein 00:57, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

I would still love to see a group causing chaos behind Canadian lines. Some group of Anti-War rebels who ironically try to stop the war with violence. Among other things I would love a Guy Fawkes-esque detonation of Parliament. It could happen, as the level of explosive technology has advanced greatly. The amount of Semtex or other more unpleasant explosives could be in a suitcase and still do enough damage to the Canadian Parliament to kill at least most of the MPs. This could through the government into chaos, thus greatly helping the S&S side. These rebels would probbably be supplied secretly by the S&S side to destabilize Canada long enough for the S&S defences to be stablilized. --Yankovic270 01:12, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would there be such a movement in Canada? They are on the defensive, attacked by an enemy who only had the flimsiest excuse to do it.  Meanwhile Superior has only a slight majority of people in support of the war (according to their legislature's vote) and I still haven't heard any dissent in that direction.  Mitro 01:17, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I was going to use the raid on the Canadian naval base as the reason for an uptick in dissent within Republic of Superior. However, it seems that idea has seemingly been rejected. Lahbas 01:24, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Warring nations don't usually have huge dissenting parties when they're actively defending themselves. That tends to unite them in patriotic defense of the homeland. It takes a pretty radical pacifist to say that countries should willinly allow themselves to be conquered. Benkarnell 06:32, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Mitro 15:22, November 9, 2009 (UTC)