Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Former US/Canada
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Alaska
As the Alaska Article is still marked as proposal and I am going through the Soviet Siberia material now I would like to place some critical remarks on the SIberian attack on Alaska and the "Alaska territory" as a whole.


 * 1. motivation for Siberia? I have strong doubts that after a nuclear holocaust and after only a few after Doomsday the Siberian Government - barely able to have survived- would have any true motivation to get real and formal influence in Alaska...
 * VAST territories are around them on the same continent in Western and Southern direction, furthermore most of them old Soviet/Russian territory potentially welcomeing every Soviet Successor with open arms. This territory being full of resources and of future high potential would me as Siberian leader interest more ! And there NO force would be really able to set up resistance...
 * Alaska must be heavily radiated and nuked, given the important military infrastructure (radar, NORAD, Air Force, Nuclear Bomber airports etc.)


 * Alaska is seperated from Siberia by a harsh and COLD water. Every transportation and later military operations will face severe harshness-


 * I especially object the depicted Alaskan Invasion in 1989..reasons:


 * Military:ANZUS PAct/ANZUS order already placed in 1984 gathering a lot of military hardware from U.S. / NATO and a succesful reorganisation into the Commonwealt Army (even though not named that yet) should be fairly enough to 5 years later outclass or at least match any Siberian Expeditionary force, although I do not know that much about the Soviet Pacific Fleet and the capabilities...


 * Any tries in this direction from Siberia would be met with fierce and decisive resistance from the Provisional Bush Administration and Australia /New Zealand and the Alaskans as well.


 * Focussing on Mongolian, Mandchurian or other territories in the region does seem moch more realistics IMO, if you need sth. to happen.


 * Economy: **Imagine a government just reestablished a few years ago in country which is still rebuilding its economy in 1989...and heavily depending / interested on selling its raw materials and importing food...And simply asked: Who would pay the necessary funds for the large military operation?


 * Inner politics: I would suppose a population and especially the military (if not the generals, then the normal soldiers, see 1917 revolution) would never support such a military adventure. The forces would emphasize the importance of securing the homefront.

This a few arguments I would bring up against the Soviet/Siberian presence in Alaska in general and the depicted invasion in general.--Xi&#39;Reney 21:56, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * We would need to establish, then, just what was hit in Alaska, as well as the yield of each explosion. Your arguments make much sense, Xi'Reney, but I keep thinking that no one knew the state of the entire world in 1984 and that the oil in Alaska would be attractive to someone. Indeed, in the "free Alaska" article it's established that the country sells the oil along the pipeline. And, although it's true there is oil in Siberia, they probably had no idea of the status of the world's biggest sources of oil, namely the Middle East. The thought might have been that they needed to get their hands on as many resources as they could. And, though it was a U.S. state, Alaska is much closer to Siberia than Arabia, Indonesia, Venezuela or Nigeria, and Siberia may have thought it would run only into deer, polar bears and a few people whose arms would offer no resistance to the Siberian military might. In other words, Siberia could have thought things would go one way, and they actually went another.--BrianD 22:17, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Taking your point Brian I agree with an ambivalent position in Siberian strategy...and not ruling out the Siberian interest...But retrieving and protecting the Alaskan oil would surely be a top priority for the ANZUS nations...sending everything militarily useful they get up there. Hawaii becoming the crucial strategical point/port etc. This even IMO heightens the probability for the scenario described above.

and where else to get it from then territory nominally in their control? I invented some "Australia expanding into Indonesia for getting oil very eraly in TTL." BUt imagine a country like Australia and New Zealand trying to maintain a vast fleet coming in from all over the world...They would naturally launch very early (1984/85) a mission to secure the reachable oil...this Operation "Oilwell" or sth. alike would get top priority...!!! Establishing ports in Alaska/ securing what they have...statining carrier groups in and around Alaska, submarines etc. Then establishing a regular shipping route for oil crossing the Pacific.. !

because the Commonwealth would run out of oil quite quickly and all US fleet would be stranded somewhere, hindering all serious tries to maintain some influence/way to protect things... I will put this on the FUndamental talk as I would guess oil (and other resources) would be at least in the short run be a top priority (after restructuring at least to the minimal level of stability.) for all and every entities playing mroe than a local role... We should have listened to MAD MAX... damn-.. :) --Xi&#39;Reney 18:29, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Xi'Reney,the attack,considering all the vast resources the USSR has on its own continent which I did mention on their page,seems to make no sense. But simply consider the fact that 6 years after the nuclear exchange,the Siberians didn't know whether to trust the Australians or not,as they were allies of the Americans. They would attack out of fear,sort of a shot first,ask questions later tactic. When I started writing,there was no mention of the Australians being anywhere near Alaska,not until 1987,so I assumed that some help would come from the Socialist Union. I took into account everything already said on this subject in the TL,and wrote something corresponding to that. I'm glad that a discussion has finally started on seeing what to do about Alaska and the distribution of resources in the world.--Vladivostok 19:27, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Hellerick's grand master plan for Alaska was/is that the West Alaskans actually sought out the Soviets, looking for aid. I can certainly imagine a small Soviet ship either deliberately exploring the coast of Alaska, or else blown off course. When it finds people they say, "We're starving, we have no medical supplies, please, help us." Either that, or some Alaskans themselves sailed to the Russian coast looking for somebody who could help them. Either way, the Soviets were established in Alaska by the late 80s, when the ANZUS nations were finally made aware of their presence. There was fighting, and a cease fire border was drawn. I think that's a damn good story, personally. And it's perfectly plausible, because oce the Soviets were established on the west coast, they would not want to leave and might well defend their position if attacked or ordered to get out. Benkarnell 23:19, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good points, all. Xi'Reney, I would expect the APA to have sent something up there c. 1984 or 1985 to examine the state and see which natural resources (oil) were still salvagable. --BrianD 00:16, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Virginian Expansion
Inspired by what BrianD added to the WRCB report for the deep south, I may add to the Virginian Republic at least plans to expand into Ohio, Maryland and Pennsylvania. While the Virginian territories in "East" Virginia and Kentucky are expanded. --Yankovic270 18:35, November 11, 2009 (UTC) This is my idea on the territory that Virginia at least claims in Ohio. They have simmilar claims in other states, and the territory they have now is developed enough for them to even think of expanding --Yankovic270 03:25, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Texas
I'm considering building towards a reunification of West Texas and eastern Texas into a Republic of Texas. Please let me know if you think it's realistic, or if the two countries need to be split. They're not at war, and there's no reason for anything beyond a few eastern Texans being mad that West Texas didn't get out there sooner.--BrianD 15:35, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Also, a unified Texas would give me an excuse to use Clint Dempsey in the timeline; he's a soccer/football player for the U.S. men's national team and for Fulham FC in England. I've established West Texas as having tremendous interest in soccer, and see its national team as influenced by the Mexican style (since many of the players are immigrants or sons of immigrants from Mexico) and a possible dark horse in the CONCACAF region. --BrianD 19:56, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

On a more serious note, I want to establish Mexico as a West Texas ally. I've spent much time in the history of West Texas explaining how the split between the two countries occurred, and the conservative-led government's staunch isolationism as a reason why relations never were reestablished. I also want to establish how, as Americans gained power and influence in the government and in society, Mexico began to look north. To see what was there and, if anyone was alive, to establish relations. There is still the 'your war' anti-American sentiment among a few Mexicans, but everyone pretty much understands that the Soviets fired the missiles in offense. I want Mexico to be a player in North America initially in two ways: reestablish good relations with West Texas (with G.W. Bush playing a big role in mending fences), and a proactive role in leading LoN aid and reconstruction efforts in the southern U.S.. --BrianD 19:56, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Wait, don't the Texans not like the Mexicans because the Mexicans pulled out of the northern states leaving Texas on its own? --DarthEinstein 20:13, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

That was the government, Darth. The two peoples never had any problem with each other. Although I never really fleshed it out, the chaos in Mexico following the Mexico City earthquake, combined with anti-American sentiment among some influential Mexican military leaders, led Mexico to pull away from West Texas. The military leaders were angry over what they saw as the "forced" abandonment of their territory, and deaths of some of their people, as a result of the "American" war. They managed to convince enough of the other military and government leaders that West Texas would probably die off sooner than later, and mexico needed to tend to its affairs rather than those of a dying nation. Although the military enforced the 'ban' on West Texas, many people, who had relatives on either side of the Rio Grande, found ways to evade the Mexican guards (West Texas looked the other way). West Texas leaders realized that officially they could say 'no relations with Mexico', but that actually enforcing it among its own people would be impossible. Therefore the official position on isolationism in regards to politics and trade, while looking the other way in regards to informal meetings between people. In short, the people wanted to get out there long before their government would let them. --BrianD 20:29, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Southern United States/Portland/"Southern Pact/Dixie Accord"
There seems to be an opportunity developing to examine on how nations deal with other newly discovered nations in this timeline. Specifically, I'm talking about Zack's Kentucky and Yank's Virginia in regards to the city states I proposed for the southern U.S. On Zack's talk page Yank mentions making Portland an ally by diplomacy or force, and he said "Personally I am hoping for the latter, because my army has not had any combat experience since the last cell was eradicated in '94".

I say that the entire community needs to get involved in discussions for this one, and for the following reasons:


 * All of the citystates in America remember growing up in a free country, where each person had liberties and rights protected by law.
 * If this was real, and Virginia and/or Kentucky were to take Portland or Morristown or Asheville by brute force, they probably would be able to do so easily. They also would show the people whose territory they subjugated, as well as the rest of the world, that they are not democracies, but brute military dictatorships.
 * I would think that if Virginia rolls into Tennessee and North and South Carolina and starts taking other territory by force that they could kiss their chances at being in the League of Nations goodbye.
 * Neither Virginia nor Kentucky may really care.
 * Another important point that I want to emphasize is this: Yank has established Virginia as having a variant of the Confederate flag, and Thompson as desiring to reestablish the Confederacy. Now it is probably true that in 1983 and even now, there are a few whites in the South who would want to see the CSA established, the vast majority are loyal Americans who do not want to see the country return to the days of slavery and segregation.
 * ANY military force rolling in with the Confederate flag is not going to be received very well.
 * And you probably will have some level of resistance in any such scenario.
 * This is why I established the info on the Newshour page, and the Portland page, about the League of Nations being aware of the situation in the south and offering aid to all interested city states. It's also why I made the point on Cave City's page, and the Portland page, about these city states wanting the same freedoms they enjoyed before DD under the Constitution, not to be subjugated by the Soviets, Cubans, Virginians, anyone. The LoN knows more about Virginia than the people in Portland and Hattiesburg do (although Virginia's reputation as a militaristic nation state has gotten to the folks in Portland), and knows that without going into the region with some type of peacekeepers one of the more powerful nation states nearby can take these towns at will. Cuba, Mexico, West Texas, Superior (if it was inclined), Vermont are too far away to send forces to one of these towns before Virginia and/or Kentucky establish themselves there.
 * Then it becomes a game of 'yeah, and what are you (LoN) going to do about it? What if we want to reestablish the ENTIRE United States?
 * I believe Kentucky and Virginia should continue their plans, and that the League of Nations needs to be formally established as having ongoing concerns in the region, therefore all of the territory not under Kentucky and Virginia control as of a certain date (perhaps October 15, November 1) as under LoN protection, with the aim of modernizing each city state and giving them the option to join Kentucky, or virginia, or each other, or go it alone.
 * Any action by Virginia and/or Kentucky to take LoN-protected - and former U.S. - territory by force needs to be condemned unilaterally by the LoN. George H.W. Bush, as the last President, should also condemn any force by nations in the former U.S. to take other nations in the former U.S. by force. The CRUSA should also condemn such tactics.
 * Finally, the LoN, Bush, CRUSA, and other non-LoN members in the area should condemn Virginia's apparent attempt to reestablish a racist militaristic nation state in the Confederate States of America. It should be especially condemned as something that is against American principles of liberty and freedom and a repudiation of President Lincoln's emancipation proclamation and all subsequent actions by the U.S. government to end slavery and segregation.
 * That said, let's see what Zack and Yank have for this. This could be a good scenario to work through.--BrianD 19:10, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Left this on the Portland talk page: "Remember that the people in these city states who were alive during DD lived in a nation where they had rights guaranteed by law. America was not militaristic, and though there were elements of racism (including the Klan and the Rebel flags) in the south, most people were loyal to the United States. I can imagine that some elements in the south would be happy to live under the Confederate flag in a nation led by the good President-General. I can also imagine that many people would not be so happy - including the sizable minority of African-Americans, and lesser minority of Latinos, that live there (the south isn't all lily-white, after all). Portland would be more willing to unite with Kentucky, where the American ideas of freedom and liberty seem (to them) to be given more than lip service, or form a state of Tennessee or coalition of Tennessee and North Carolina (with Morristown and Asheville) with Mexican, Jamaican, and even Cuban peacekeepers than a militaristic force branding itself as the successor to the Confederacy."--BrianD 19:27, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Speaking for Kentucky and Kentucky alone:


 * I do not support the idea of establishing some racist military dictatorship based off or named after the Confederate States of America.


 * I do not believe in military force against the good people of Portland. Tennessee unless they actively provoke us.


 * I want to help Tennessee liberate the rest of the state from warlords who do not support liberty and freedom.


 * One day I want to expand the ideals of liberty to other survivor city states in North Carolina, South Carolina and Missouri and help them modernize their communities.


 * I'll let Yank throw in his two cents on how Virginia feels--GOPZACK 19:33, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Let me make myself clear. Virginia is not involved in former Tennessee for territorial gain. They are involved to help the Portlanders reclaim the former state. They are attempting to gain an ally for the Southern Compact/Dixie Accord. And if the Confederate flag is so offensive, I will change it, but let me explain first. The Confederate flag was the last flag flying over a Virginia independant of Washington. Though they are militaristic by necessity, that doess not change the fact that they had free Congressional and Presidential ellections. And the rights that had been eliminated, again out of necessity, have been restored. Rest assured that Virginia is not an evil dictatorship. And while the Virginians are interested in expanding into neighboring states, Tennessee is not one of them. Yankovic270 20:04, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the clarification, Yank and Zack. I could be wrong regarding the misgivings people might have of Ky. and Va., but I don't think I am. Yank, you may be looking at the Confederate flag from a Canadian perspective; being an American and a southerner, more or less, and having studied some American history, the rebel flag would be a flashpoint at the very least. You'd have people supporting it, and old Dixie, yes, but just as many people, and probably more, against any country flying that flag, especially with tanks rolling in (although the rebel flag would be welcomed in Toccoa and 'New Montgomery').--BrianD 20:13, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as Tennessee, it's not a given that the entire state would fly under its banner; I believe that Morristown and Asheville might enter into some type of alliance. There would have to be negotiations with Virginia and Kentucky, and the LoN, with Portland, Morristown and Asheville regarding borders, benefits/detriments to independence, one state, two states, union w/Ky. or Virginia. This could go any number of ways, including another option that no one's really thought of yet: they might want to rejoin the United States.--BrianD 20:13, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me but that is not an option. The United States have been dead and buried in this timeline for 13 years. Face it. The US is gone, and despite what the CRUSA thinks, it is not coming back. I do not hate America, its just that it is not plausible that the United States would come back. --Yankovic270 20:21, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

personally I'm still open to the return of the United States one day--GOPZACK 20:25, November 13, 2009 (UTC) since these States are independent nations I cant see them rejoining a future USon the other hand before rebuiding can begin law and order needs to be brought to the region and the only way is to join forces like countries in Europe have --Owen1983 19:00, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally agree more with Yankovic here. The US has actually been gone not 13 tears, but 26 - that's how long it's been since the US effectively controlled the area.  And for most of that time, you have to think that the people were used to some variation on anarchy or rule by strongmen.  There are memories of the USA, but very dim ones.  And most people of military age would have no memory of it at all.  Probably, this is how communities have been interacting in that part of the world for years: take what you can, give nothing back.  As for the League of Nations - remember, it is only one year old, plus a little bit.  If you think about it, it's been around only a little longer than... oh, Barack Obama.  And not nearly as long as the iPhone.  The Virginians probably know about it, but they realize the League is overtaxed as it is, dealinng with various wars around the world, trying to establish all-new bodies for everything from health to space travel.
 * That said, everyone needs to remember that this should not work like some kind of role playing game. the object is not for "your" country to "win".  We're trying to create a story and a world here, that's all.  Benkarnell 20:40, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that the US will likely never return to its full borders, but remember that in a sense it still does exist in the Provisional Government of the United States of America of the NAU. Sorry, just a technicality. --DarthEinstein 20:46, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yank, I understand. The U.S. wouldn't come back, at least in this generation. Yet, as Darth points out, the U.S. still exists. Remember, these people by and large had no knowledge of anything outside their immediate borders (or the neighboring city state, in a few cases). They're finding out about the APA, Bush, the ANZC, South America, Europe, the LoN for the first time. If people hear that some sort of U.S. government still exists, some naturally would be interested in considering joining it. And, they may not realize the extent of the LoN's power that Virginia would. As far as lawlessness, I see some as lawless, and some as being relatively peaceful and mindful of the old ways. There is a certain amount of bending or breaking the rules to survive, but unless you're constantly under threat of attack, or you have a dictator, I see no reason for a community with no threats to have anything other than normal laws necessary to govern itself.--BrianD 20:58, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

The lawlessness of the region was exacctly why Virginia is a militaristic nation. The stiffer penalties imposed by them were the only way to restore order. Now that the region is more pecefull, the rights and freedoms of the old US are being restored. Though there is still a sense that true sucess in Virginia, man or woman, is reached through two tours of duty. My Virginia is totally without rascism or sexism. No matter who you are you have a chance for sucess... if you served in the army. Basically you cannot enjoy your new rights and freedoms if you don't fight to protect them. It must not be so bad. Exercise, the best of everything under the sun, and no real danger. --Yankovic270 21:09, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right, certainly in regards to much of the country. One thing a more powerful country can do is convince the 'weaker brother' that there are bonafide, legit benefits in having the more powerful country join up with it. Keep in mind, too, that there are all kinds of rumors floating around down there, some accurate, some not - and Virginia is the 'recipient' of the true and false rumors as much as anyone. I would think in any such scenario, that there would be a period of feeling the other party out, and misunderstandings would go along with that. Perhaps the citystates will come to believe that they are better off being under the protection of the LoN, or under the protection of fellow former American states. And that all negotiations, talks, etc. are just beginning.--BrianD 22:09, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

I have decided that I will not change the flag. When I saw the Virginian flag I realized it looked too much like Kentucky's. Yankovic270 01:36, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, Zack. Going forward, I believe that Portland will take up Virginia's and Kentucky's kind offer. There will need to be talks with the communities in east Tennessee and western North Carolina, whom may want their own union. Whether they'll call it Appalachia, or Carolina, is up in the air. There will be oversight by the LoN's southern U.S. command (which is led mostly by former Americans who immigrated to Mexico), whose primary concern is that the discovered survivor communities retain the liberties and freedoms they did pre-Doomsday. Whatever political entity will guarantee that, the LoN - and Mexico - will give its blessing to.

Population of Superior
Lahbas and I have been debating the population of Superior for some time now. We had finally come to an agreement of 1,400,000 but now Lahbas believes that there would 300k more people living there due to the fact that the winds would not carry that much fallout into the area. What do you all think the population of Superior is? Mitro 15:28, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Gosh, even 1.4 million seems ridiculously high. The UP today has only 300,000!  The all-time high was in the 1920 census, and that was only 332,500 .  The 1980 census counted 320,000 people.  I understand that Superior absorbed lots of refugees.  But this would be balanced by a number of factors.  First and foremost is the carrying capacity of the land.  It's not the most hospitable place to raise crops or people.  Superior sponsored a massive agricultural program, yes.  But nature imposes its limits.  Hand in hand with carrying capacity is the problem of limited resources.  Hunger would be a problem not just in the camps, but among the Yoopers themselves.  There would not be enough food to sustain an ordinary American diet.  Crops would be limited by the land, whose already low arability would be worsened by windborne radiation - a real factor even if winds dispersed the worst of it.  The article mentions fish, but the Great Lakes would not be as bountiful as they once had been because of the pollution from Doomsday.  Lake Superior, which is (I think) not bordered by any direct targets, would be better off than Huron/Michigan, but still affected.  And that doesn't even take into account the scarcity of medical supplies and new clothing, all of which would formerly have been imported into the UP, and which would contribute to a lower population.  Finally, birth rates everywhere will be lower because of background radiation, the scarcity of food and supplies, and the overall more chaotic state of the world.  Higher death rates, lower birth rates... even with the refugees, Superior would be lucky to maintain the 320,000 population level through the 1990s, followed by some growth as standards of living genuinely improved in the 2000s.  But not to the point of 1.4 million.  Not even to one million.  I do not doubt the virility of the rugged men of Superior, nor the nubility of Superior's lovely women... but one can only produce so many babies in circumstances like this.  (And, indeed, many of the rugged men of Superior, with their tragically irradiated sperm, are probably not as virile as they appear at first glance.)  Benkarnell 16:04, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you completely. I used similar arguments when Lahbas originally listed the population as 7 million.  Arguably we also have to take into account the parts Superior controls outside of the UP (northern Wisconsin, northern LP Michigan and tiny enclaves in Ontario).  Still I understand your point that even that wouldn't rise the number that high.  Mitro 17:22, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, yes. Those outlying areas would be the only ones to experience population growth due to refugees.  Superior's policy was to settle refugees in Mackinaw and Wisconsin, so the UP itself would have experienced a steady decline throughout the 80s and 90s due to low birth rates and high death rates.  The population loss for the Republic as a whole would then be offset by the new settlements outside the original borders.  But in the camps, birth rates would be even lower than in the UP itself, and death rates much, much higher, especially infant mortality.  You're looking at a return of third world diseases, both in the camps and in the UP, until enough experts can be drafted to re-invent some modern cures.  A year 2000 population of 200,000 in the UP, and 100,000 in the outlying areas, seems generous, IMO, and then you have to add a decade of natural growth and immigration from lawless regions.  Half a million is the highest estimate that sounds plausible to me, but then, the thought process I just went through is hardly scientific.  Benkarnell 19:12, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing I shot myself in the foot here. Anyway, I removed the proposal. It's back down to original numbers. A lot of my orginal reasoning is on the original talk page. The large population of the region before Doomsday, as a whole, is a major cause in my stubborness. As it is, I cannot realistically see the population being below 1.4 million given its circumstances. Lahbas 21:32, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * By "the region" you mean the entire Great Lakes region. But there;s a difference: the Great Lakes region as a whole can support a large, dense population.  The Upper Peninsula cannot.  Neither can the heavily wooded territory regions.  I'm not disputing that lots of refugees came in the direction of the UP - maybe, maybe, maybe 4 million of them.  But hardly any of them would have lived, because the land cannot support that many people.  You say that famine was "averted early on" without explaining how.  The Yoopers would have had an extremely difficult time raising enough food for themselves, much less millions and millions of refugees.  The land and the lakes are not unlimited.  Indeed, with the radiation, they are more limited than ever.  And if, by some miracle, there were enough fish that first year to feed that many people, well, there would have been none left the following year.  They'd all be eaten.  Any number with six figures seems completely absurd in that area, given the survival needs of the people, the ability of the land to provide for them, and the downward pressures on the population for years after the event.  Benkarnell 22:05, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Sicily Republic Racist?
Apparently someobne is offended by the article: Forum:Sicily Republic. Mitro 15:39, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. I can see why someone would think that... but still, some places should become dictatorships. It's mostly in the hands of a few people what a country becomes after doomsday, in my opinion. We can add some stuff about internal dissent, of course. The freedom loving people of Sicily fighting against their overlords. But I think the overall idea should stay. --DarthEinstein 17:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Hey man i'm the one who wrote the message on the forum.I've modified already the article.Call it vandalizing or not but i do not like the place where i live ruined in that way.I'll learn ya guys something new:in the elimination of the Italian state,it would be eliminated the Mafia/Camorra etc too,since it's the Italian state who maintains it and is because of those organizations the south is almost under developed.Believe me guys,i live here and i know more or less how it works the italian state.Nomad
 * I have reverted the edits you have made to Sicily because it has gone against the established canon of this TL. I ask you to please review  and QSS and QAA, before further edits are made.  Some respect needs to be given to the established history of this TL before you begin changing it or else this TL will become very confusing.
 * Now on to your concerns: it is one thing to change something that is implausible and another to change it because it is offensive. If you have sources that you can present that show that the current version of Sicily is implausible, then maybe we would be willing to listen to your changes.  Saying you live there, however, isn't good enough.  We need facts not questionable eyewitness testimony.
 * Furthermore realize that the current version of Sicily has been around for a while and to change it now to some neutral nation that has never caused anyone any problems would tred on the work of over a dozen editors. So try to relax and not unilaterly change things, because such behavior doesn't make us supportive of your opinions at all.  Mitro 18:47, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Well,seems like i cannot modify Sicily.What about i create a Neapolitan Socialist Republic that takes Southern Italy?
 * The article is protected due to your most recent edits, but that will only last a week. In the meantime I suggest you discuss your changes to Sicily on the article's talk page.  Mitro 19:15, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Carthography
Section Archives: Page 1

New Map
I think whoever creates the maps for this timeline needs to get started on the new one, as there are a ton of newly confirmed nations to be added to the map. --Yankovic270 03:10, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think anyone would create the maps - as long as it fits with canon and it's approved by the community. I might want to try my hand at some mapmaking myself... --DarthEinstein 03:25, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * XiReney and Fero made the first few world maps. The latest one is mine, and since last June it's become very out of date.  Problem is that I was not following 1983DD for most of August and September, when the flury of activity really began.  I've been trying to read all the new pages from August or later, but just keeping up with current proposals is difficult... anyone is free to ad some or all of the new nations.  Or maybe it would be best to break down the labor?  North America is the worst offender; maybe I can upload a world map with just North America updated, and others can take it from there.  Benkarnell 16:39, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've actually already started a new map. I decided to build it from the ground up; that is, I'm getting the information from the individual articles instead of from previous world maps. I started with the Americas, and they're about half complete, and I haven't started on the Old World. --DarthEinstein 16:44, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, then. Ground up is probably best: I tried hard to keep it free of errors, but they crept in anyway.  Are you still going to include flags?  They have been sort of a tradition so far, but now there are many, many more of them.  Benkarnell
 * I'll try to put the flags in, but first I'm going to get all the borders. After the borders, then I'll get the names and flags. I also thought of creating maps for each continent simply by slicing up the world map, which we can put on the pages for each continent. --DarthEinstein 17:11, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Hey Darth! What is the soonest time you can estimate the map being finished? --Yankovic270 21:13, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure; so far I've drawn the borders of most nations in North and South America, as well as the Alpine Confed, Celtic Alliance, and the small French nations. After I'm done the rest of Europe, I'll move south to Africa, then to Asia and Oceania. After that, I'll fill in the names and flags. So... there's still lots I have to do. By the way, if you notice any nations missing from the list, put it on. I'm using it as a referance to find all the countries. --DarthEinstein 21:31, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Could you post an image of the North American section on my talk page? I'm curious on how my nations look. By the way, Assiniboia has the borders of the old Red River colony. --Yankovic270 21:44, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said, I haven't put the names or flags in yet, but if you want me to get a partially finished version, that's fine. --DarthEinstein 02:17, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say (as a comment after a long time), you might put it in a partially finished version when the names are done. Then we could decide if we insert the flags as well... But I would guess a separate map with flags would me optically more proper. I offer to do the "FLAG MAP Work as a first contribution after a long absence. --Xi&#39;Reney 17:55, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Great to have you back! Also, here's a map update: I've drawn the borders for the North and South American and European countries, as well as the African ones except in South Africa, which has really confused me. After I'm done drawing borders in Asia and Oceania, I'll put the names in, and leave a space under each name for a flag. --DarthEinstein 19:50, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I just did a whole lot of work on the map, and I think it's ready for people to see the first version. As you can see, the countries are not yet labeled. I'd like to hear any concerns over the borders of the countries first. If you've been following the TL you should be able to recognise most of the countries. The darker grey regions between the NAU and Utah, Utah and the Navajo Nation, and Aceh and Indonesia, represent condominion or contested territory. Any suggestions for the next version are appriciated. --DarthEinstein 23:14, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a little jarring to see so much of Africa, China, Europe, even the eastern U.S. in dark grey. That aside, the map looks good.--BrianD 23:18, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

I like the map as well but I have some issues. I may have relented on NAU Nebraska, but I respectfully want all of non-NAU Nebraska to be under Lincolnite control, that would give the Lincolnites both more territory and a border right next to the NAU. Plus the loosly-bound nation of Cave City, like the Okanogan to Victoria, is a potential site for future expansion of Virginia. That warrents, at least until official control is obtained, those dots of colour you see marking influence. --Yankovic270 02:19, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Right; I haven't added any "influence dots" yet, so I'll do that for the next version. I'll expand Lincoln also, but keep in mind that the map I built this off of didn't have state borders, so it will be approximate. --DarthEinstein 02:25, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a problem with zones of influence. The map ought to represent definite borders for each country; in some areas (like India, Sikkim) these zones can literally change by the day, or a country can claim influence that it can't realistically maintain. The issue should be discussed, though.--BrianD 02:40, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. The last map did not include claims for that very reason.  Now that we have dozens of new countries, we have to pick and choose what information to show.  This is really good!  It looks so clean, and the colors are easier to distinguish.  THe small changes I'd recommend:
 * Sikkim's independent government was overthrown a couple of weeks ago, IIRC.
 * I don't think that the North American UNion overlaps with Utah; that was an error on my map.
 * The NAU might more accurately be shown as three countries with a common color, like the Nordic countries. (I'm pretty sure that when I made the other map I hadn't actually read the NAU page.)
 * More of central Italy should be no-man's land. My map used diagonal stripes only because the Alpine and Sicilian colors were too hard to tell apart when I used dots.
 * But basically... wow! Benkarnell 03:24, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks about Sikkim, I did not hear about that. So it's part of the UIP now?
 * I'll fix the Utah-NAU border.
 * I'll separate the states for the NAU. While doing this, I tryed to decide what to do about Siberia. With the addition of Mongolia, Uyghuristan and Khazakhstan to it, I thought I might want a solid border like with the Nordic Union and, as you said, the NAU. But I thought they might be too centralized a state for that. What do you think?
 * I based Italy off of the page; for territory it said that they owned it up to Milan. I did think this was odd, and I guess you agree. So will they extend to, say, the ruins of Rome? Also, don't you think Sicily might be able to control the nearby Tunisia also?
 * Thanks for the help! --DarthEinstein 03:42, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, that is odd about Sicily. I think the no-man's-land as I had described it was based on the previous map. Maybe Sicily only claims Italy up to Milan?  Or, Milan was the high-water-mark of their advance, but is not securely under their control?   And I know I have heard something about Sicily controling at least part of Tunisia.  As for the Siberian states, I'm not sure, since that's a family of articles that I also have not read yet.  (Sorry!)  Finally, can I suggest a darkish blue for the NAU?  Benkarnell 04:03, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Okay here's the next update on the map. I haven't added names yet, but I have corrected a few things and added the dots representing influence. If there are any countries I've missed or made the borders wrong for a country let me know. --DarthEinstein 18:40, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good. A couple things I'm now noticing, and sorry for not seeing them before:

Benkarnell 22:05, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Namibia's situation is still far from certain. Same iwth South Africa, actually, but at least this approximtes the countries we know are there.
 * The Yugoslav Union is smaller - I think it may have lost Slovenia & Dalmatia for unknown reasons.
 * Manitoba/ Assiniboia is small, but not _that_ small, I think.
 * I don't think Sicily would control all of Tunisia, on its exact original borders.

Wow,this is exactly what I envisioned the USSR would have in terms of land.It's great,good job.--Vladivostok 19:37, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you missed . Also I know  is pretty small but is there any way you can make sure its identified on the map?  [EDIT] Never mind.  When I zoom on the map I see that you did mark it.  Mitro 20:33, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Zanzibar will be labeled, though I know right now it's practically invisible from a zoomed out point of view. From what I read about Algeria, it is divided into city-states, and so I wasn't sure how to make any borders. I decided that once I got to the name-adding stage I would just write "Algerian city-states" in the region. And thanks about the USSR, I was unsure if that was accurate. Should the different republics be separated by black lines, though, like with the NAU and Nordic Union? Also I'll correct Tunisia, Assiniboia, and the Yugoslave Union. With regards to South Africa though, I understand that it is in a state of canonical flux or something, so maybe I should just keep those borders for now and it can be corrected later when it calms down. --DarthEinstein 22:28, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,the Union isn't as decentralized as the NAU or the Nordic Union,I think keeping it this way,with the colorless borders in the middle would work fine.--Vladivostok 22:33, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Once I find a decent map of BC, I'll actually mark New Caledonia/Prince George's borders, as they encompass a lot more than marked. --Oerwinde 20:10, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bc2010.png shows how BC will be divided next year, but also shows the borders of Prince George/New Caledonia. --Oerwinde 21:37, October 31, 2009 (UTC)



I respectfully wish that whoever is creating the new map use these borders for Assiniboia. It is an old map of the Red River Colony, another name given for it was Assiniboia. --Yankovic270 20:34, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll do that. --DarthEinstein 20:43, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. Just a small note on North Germany, though it is not (yet?) included on the map in the article itself, the nation has recently expanded to the formerly Dutch province of Groningen, it might be nice if that were reflected on the map. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:58, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * It is included, just very small. I'll be sure to make the change. --DarthEinstein 16:24, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

I think we recently agreed that Belize is smaller, mostly coastal, and that a lot of the inland territory was lost. I could be wrong. Benkarnell 14:07, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I really think Assiniboia is too large. Mitro 15:04, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

It is not like I am claiming all of Canada between Vctoria and the Remainder Provinces. I don't think Assiniboia's claim is excessive. The only impact is Winnipeg, as they pretty much made the area around it just as much a no-man's-land as the area around Chernobyl. And they did not claim it all at once. Maybe they started with what is shown on the new map so far, and just recently reached these borders. --Yankovic270 15:27, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think my biggest problem is that you are basing this on a vague and old colonial map and not on any other evidence on how far the nation could extend its borders. Furthermore what about the Lakota?  They managed to take over most of North and South Dakota and yet that map makes it look like that never happened.  Mitro 15:37, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Ok fine. get rid of the colonial map. But Assiniboia still controls at least a small chunk of North Dakota. You said that the Lakota took over most of the Dakotas. It is possible that there is a a small piece that is not in Aboriginal hands. --Yankovic270 15:43, November 3, 2009 (UTC) Umm,there have been some changes to the Kazakh article that were unavoidable,since the regions I picked would have been severely bombed. Here's a map detailing what the Siberians would control,bordered in black. The bombed regions are a closed zone in the USSR. That will be shown in more detail,once Hellerick makes a map showing this.--Vladivostok 20:48, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Can someone give me a report on how the map is coming? Mind that Assiniboia needs to be enlarged and given at least a small piece of North Dakota. But Lets face it. The new map so far only gives the Lakota a small portion of the dakotas. It still is plausible that Assiniboia can get as much North Dakota as possible.And while the southern border of Assiniboia is in question, the Northern isn't. I'd like that border to follow the colonial map as much as possible. --Yankovic270 22:10, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I've enlarged Assiniboia and I've added the new borders for Prince George. I think I'm going to go ahead and add the country names soon. Once that's done I'll upload it again. --DarthEinstein 00:34, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear contamination map


I have made this map of the nuclear contamination after the war. Of course it should not be taken to seriously, but it gives us idea of which area can be re-populated, and which cannot. Unfortunately it show us that many regimes created in Europe and ex-USA seem very implausible (especially the Alpine Confederation). On the other hand it shows us some surprisingly clean areas (e.g. in western Ukraine and Montana). — Hellerick 08:44, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * May I ask where you got your information?--BrianD 16:56, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * What information? This picture is based on File:1983nuked2.PNG, the red dots for nuclear strikes were Gausian-blurred in Photoshop (thus imitating the contamination being spread) and isolines of "contamination levels" were added. The ICBM markers are larger, thus they produce a larger contaminated area. That's why I said that this map should not be taken to seriously, but still in shows which places are more likely to be contaminated than the rest. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 19:16, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Are the isolines done by hand?--TEAKAY 00:02, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

There is a difference between radiation from elsewhere, and an actual nuclear impact. A state can survive radiation fairly easily, but an actual impact often destroys the chance for an organized government. The only exclusion to this "rule" is Lincoln, the destruction of Omaha did not affect it, as its capitol is Lincoln. --Yankovic270 19:48, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't understand Yankovic's comment. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 13:24, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he means that because Lincoln is west of Omaha, it didn't get affected by the blast nor by the fallout.--BrianD 14:18, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * THere's also wind patterns to consider, and this map doesn't show the recently "discovered" impacts all over the Middle East. But overall it's quite helpful.  I'm once again feeling skeptical about, for instance. Benkarnell 11:14, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously no Luxembourg is possible, in fact I think it would be one of the most "hot" regions of Europe.
 * I can take into account the winds if necessary (I guess it would make eastern Canada and northern Russia more polluted, and it probably would destroy the western Ukrainian "oasis"). If I'll be given am updated map of nuclear strikes, I'll make an updated map of the contamination. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 13:23, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * This does help to show what I've feared for a while - that our survivor states in Europe and northeastern America are altogether too optimistic. It's time to talk about what changes are needed for the Alps and similar places.  Benkarnell 16:19, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

i thought most of the detonations were airburts, not ground detonations so there would not be that much fallout. anyway, surely nations like the Alpine Confed have been canon for to long to alter. --HAD 16:47, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

The original nuke map needs a redo anyway. There were many areas hit that weren't included as well as some areas that shouldn't have been hit. Juneau for instance.--Oerwinde 19:53, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to this map, only Luxembourg is completely and totally impossible, and maybe San Juan. Those countries affected however should represent the contamination in their articles, especially Victoria, where it appears it may block, or at least delay, its proposed expansion into Washington. Lahbas 00:39, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, to add to my previous statement, Central Coast and Eastern Texas would be impossible, though the latter could still potentially survive depending on the exact level of contamination. Lahbas 00:42, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Luckily East Texas is pretty much a wasteland as is. C. Coast isn't canon yet, so we don't really know where that;s going to fall.  Luxembourg, now... that's going to be tough to explain away.  I had my doubts about it in the beginning, but consensus was that it could survive.  Looking at the devastation implied by that map, though... what do you all think?  Benkarnell 03:31, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * East Texas was never intended to involve people rebuilding over the ruins of Dallas and Houston and Austin. I picked Tyler, Nacogdoches, etc. after looking at the FEMA maps and list of targets for Texas, because it seemed to be the one area that would not get hit and could build some type of society if it survived the fallout and lack of food and chaos. I gave it 80,000 people and that might be generous. I'd hate to lose it, but I think I've done it in the most plausible way possible (however, I could easily be wrong about any or all of it).--BrianD 04:18, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Playing around with the map made by Hellerick, I added wind patterns (taken from Wikimedia Commons). And the maps looks like this. Has with Hellerick nuclear contamination, it should only taken has an idea, not a reference. --JorgeGG 15:11, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Talk Page -Talk
'''as there is no Talk page for this Talk page (:P) I explain it here: I tried to restructure the Talk Page a bit by sorting the discussions into categories oriented at the Main Page structure...all felt a bit chaotic for me and some discussions i was not able to find again...hope this is okey for everyone... if not simply tell and we roll it back...'''--Xi&#39;Reney 19:38, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure thing. Let me take this time to say that anyone can archive, and anyone can graduate, if it looks like a discussion has died, or there is clear consensus.  As a group gets bigger and more complex, it's natural for a hierarchy to emerge, but XiReney and Mitro and I are not the bosses of the timeline.  Personally, I would welcome the help!  With the new format, we can probably make our archive pages "open" like the formal proposal pages: they don't have to be archived a page at a time, and new archival pages probably only need to be created if the old one feels full.  But what should we call the archive pages?  "Countries Archive 1"?  "Society archive 1"?  Benkarnell 20:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Latest archive (Nov 14)
I've begun to archive everything according to the new system. Discussions are now stored section by section. As always, I apoligize if I archived discussions that you had wanted to remain active. You can find them in Page 1 of the appropriate sections if you want to resurrect them. Benkarnell 15:46, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Article proposals left alone...
Drawing what Ben asks below (Northumbria being obviously left alone?) I propose regarding proposals which have been left alone should be treated this way If for a certain time no work has been done on a proposal (or if other proposals making decisions necessary !!):


 * NOtify o the User on his talk page /per E-Mail.
 * If no reaction or a "I dont care" is the answer I think we should go the WIKI-way...offering the article for adoption by someone else. If no one is interested, then we should put the proposal aside and archive it.

We need to find some rule as proposed content have influence on other proposals. And no work should be halted/slowed down by pending proposals not worked upon. (hmm... interesting... a proposal veto or a proposal fillibuster (Wikibuster)) --Xi&#39;Reney 22:22, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * My instinct says to leave it to the creator. It's different from other Wikis - this is somebody's creative output.  This is unlikely to happen too often.  Most people at least wait around long enough to discuss their own contributions.  Something similar happened with Brazil and with MediFleet, but the objections were small enough that we could change it ourselves.  When the questions are bigger, though... I'd rather not mess with someone else's story.  I think it's best to handle this case by case, rather than formulate a new rule.  Benkarnell 23:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

ANZ template
I made a template for the ANZC states based on the new Soviet one. The problem is that it looks ugly next to the main 1983Doomsday template, all those different greens. But I think it's necessary, especially as articles get written for all the island states. Can anybody tinker with the colors or layout to produce a better visual effect? Benkarnell 19:16, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Ideas for Films
This is a space to put ideas for post-Doomsday motion pictures. --Yankovic270 17:37, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

My idea is a post-DD spy thriller, where an Australian James Bond-type has to prevent a Neo-Nazi organization from creating a "Fourth Reich" in the United American Republic. This film could also be used to help bridge the gap between the SAC and the ANZC. --Yankovic270 17:48, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * This based on your earlier ideas for Neues Deuchland? :) In a movie form, it could work, though. --DarthEinstein 20:46, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

What should the movie be called? And does anyone have any ideas of their own? --Yankovic270 21:06, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Star Wars
I've been thinking recently about the status of the Star Wars franchaise in the TL. The third movie (Episode VI) had just been released half a year earlier, and had apparently not made it to Australia yet, though was available in the United States and (presumably) Canada. Because we Canadians get all that stuff at the same time as the Americans. So perhaps sometime in the 2000s, a group of Australians travel to Canada and find the long-lost Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. This triggers a renewal of interest in the franchaise in the ANZC, and eventually a prequel or sequel trilogy is started. New books could be written too. There is the pesky issue of copyright of course... some fans would likely not accept the "new Star Wars". However, a large issue is: where was George Lucas? I don't know, but if he was somewhere in the US I think we can count him out of the picture. So I'm going to assume that he died on Doomsday or in the aftermath, unless evidence comes up that he was somewhere where he would survive. Anyway all thoughts welcome, I will hopefully start an article on it this weekend if I have time. --DarthEinstein 21:02, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Musicians in 1983: Doomsday timeline
From the Celtic Alliance and New Britain pages, it's been established the following bands exist in TTL:
 * U2 (they almost HAVE to be the biggest act in the world in TTL)
 * Barbara Streisand
 * Barbara Dickson
 * Enya
 * Dave Matthews
 * Runrig
 * Sheena Easton
 * Shop Assistants
 * Christy Moore
 * Kate Bush

I've also established that the following bands and singers known in America probably survived in Australia:
 * Keith Urban
 * Savage Garden
 * Silverchair
 * Catherine Britt

Anyone else you can think of? Keep in mind they would have had to been in a non-bombed area of the world on Doomsday.--BrianD 02:11, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Was Manchester nuked? If not then the members of Oasis might have survived and founded their group, though they likely would have a different name. --DarthEinstein 02:15, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's been established, Darth, despite a recent attempt to revive Manchester.--BrianD 01:53, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Manchester was hit by a 2kt nuclear bomb and noal house woud have been close to the city so it inprobable the Noal would have survived --Owen1983 14:41, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Of course, there would be bands exclusive to the 1983: DD timeline. Acts that wouldn't have existed in our world. Like The Four Horsemen or Doomsday. I bet there would have been a massive increase in the amount of emo, goth or death metal bands than in OTL. --Yankovic270 03:09, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, as a way to address the phenomenon. I wonder though how today's musical trends would have developed, if at all, in TTL. You'd have a lot more regionalism, I think, in terms of pop music. Global music would just now be taking off. By the way, everyone, I do want to develop this idea in depth on down the road; right now, I'm working on U2 and some other projects, but I'd like to work on a database of pop, rock, country, opera stars, and other musicians who currently exist in TTL, and especially to get an idea of how pop music has developed in the last 27 years, and which regions (Australia, Brazil, Celtic Alliance, Singapore?) have the greatest influence on pop and rock music.--BrianD 01:50, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple of thoughts - Keith Urban, though a country star in OTL, I would think is a pop star down under in TTL (he does have the looks and the voice to pull it off, and there's not nearly as much competition for him to fend off). Also, I'll do a Wiki search on Mexican, South American, South African, Singapore and Aussie/New Zealand pop stars. Those, IMO, are the most likely to be alive. And, maybe, we could have some Nashville country stars c. 1983 survive and live in Portland.--BrianD 01:53, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

And with Central Coast there is a chance that Weird Al is alive and making his unique brand of musical comedy. --Yankovic270 03:34, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Literature
Given that in the post DDay world, much of the mainstream entertainment such as movies and television would be unavailable or very limited in some regions, I have felt reading might emerge as a popular form of leisure. This said, I have been thinking what might have happened to some of the popular authors at the time. One author in general was horror novelist Steven King who lived in Bangor, Maine. Although I could not track down where he was at the time, he “could” have been at either of his residences in upstate Maine with his wife and survived. I have also discovered during my research on Delmarva that Tom Clancy was living in adjacent Calvert County, MD and was probably still working on his first book which wasn’t published till 1984. As such, I think he might have survived and I am looking into the possibility of bringing him into my nation if feasible. All this said I believe this to be a subject worth looking into long term. If anyone has any thoughts on King or any possible surviving authors, I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 01:39, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * That would potentially place him in TTL Aroostook.--BrianD 01:45, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Where would Harry Turtledove be on Doomsday and would he have survived DD? I would think that an alternate history novel of a world where Doomsday did not happen would be a bestseller. What would it be called? --Yankovic270 02:17, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually tried researching where Tdove would be and as far as I could tell he was most likely in LA in 1983. Mitro 14:11, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

So if not Turtledove, who would be the author of the alternate history novel I mentioned? John Birmingham? Douglas Niles? There must be some author that imagines a better world. Our world may not be oerfect, but it is a whole lot better than the 83:DD world. --Yankovic270 14:49, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Sports by country: football
American football, not soccer ;) Yank's entry for Lincoln mentioned the Lincoln Cornhuskers joining the "hypothetical football league". I'm almost certain he's referring to an idea I put on my talk page for a feature article on a Superior businessman who had an idea of reforming the NFL, with teams in existing survivor countries. In TTL, I think this would be impractical because the travel costs for teams travelling cross-continent would be too prohibitive (remember, none of these countries are New York or LA). I do think that forming a North American football league, consisting of teams in the NAU, Lincoln, Deseret, West Texas and perhaps Dinetah would be more doable. I also think that Lincoln's support - based in the OTL rabid support locals have for Nebraska University football - would help spur the league into a top-flight league. Your thoughts?--BrianD 05:54, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Olympics?
I took this from the sports by country talk page, and wanted to replicate it here so everyone had a chance to see it. In TTL, it's been 29 years since an Olympics have been held. I've stuck with canon in keeping the first games post DD in 2010, and placed the next games in 2016. Should I dream up something to postpone the games to '12? --BrianD 23:17, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Olympics will in 2010? i think the right time is 2012, like in our timeline, 2 years before/after fifa worldcup and others competicions, Pan American Games are in 2011, every 4 years, because america cannot send 30 football teams to ANZC, or 30 Rugby teams, i think we must read Multi-sport event wikipedia to do a reasonable calendary--Fero 23:08, November 17, 2009 (UTC) Hi, Fero. You're right, the Olympic cycle would put the summer games in 2008 or 2012. When I started on this timeline I saw that the first games post DD were listed as being in 2010; I chalked it up to the butterfly effects of Doomsday. I'm having reservations about it being in the same year, and same time, as the World Cup. But I don't want to automatically change it without taking it before the community, so I'm going to list this on the main 1983: Doomsday talk page. Your suggestion of a sports calendar is a good one.--BrianD 23:17, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Aids/HIV ?
Just a thought that came to me...what would be the importance of AIDS resp. HIV in this Timeline?? giving the early 80´s point of Doomsday I doubt that it would be as widespread as today...even in Africa?? Do not know too mcuh about the state in then 1983 so I ask around? anyone any idea? --Xi&#39;Reney 19:13, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

there are meny factors why aids isnt widespread now is the USA was completley destroyed and people that survived were struggling to survive and having sex was not inportent in the first 2 years deaths occured from hunger radiation not from aids--Owen1983 00:08, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

And Virginia has mandatory euthanasia for fatal, cureless diseases. They may not know what is is but the moment a Virginian doctor sees an AIDS patient, he is looking for the surgical tubing and lethal injection. --Yankovic270 02:00, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Owen, you said that having sex was not important in the first two years, however, with general lawlessness rape would become more common (sadly). But since this world is much less globalised it wouldn't spread very easily to other communities. So maybe communities suffering from AIDS would mostly die out before transmitting it to other communities? --DarthEinstein 02:35, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Mythbusters?
Just out of Curiosity, what happened to the Mythbusters cast? Jamie Hyneman might be alive in Superior. Is it a Myth Confirmed or Busted on Savage, Bellechi, Byron and Imahara surviving Doomsday? And if so, s it possible that they could make a Doomsday version of Mythbusters. With all the survivors of the event there are bound to be many, many DD-related myths to test. --Yankovic270 00:12, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Anyone? --Yankovic270 16:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * I could imagine something alike being existent, espcially in Commonwealth Television...!! But when did mythbusters be estabishled respectively what was the cast´s then work or relation to TV?--Xi&#39;Reney 19:46, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

disabled sport
any ideas --Owen1983 18:30, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

New TL
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline(Evil_Empire) Fellas I request you all to leave suggestions and all improvements are welcome MC Prank 16:06, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations.  Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines.  nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean.  Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s.  Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation.  Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

War in the Mediterranean!
Discussion moved to Talk:Second Sicily War (1983: Doomsday). Benkarnell 19:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Tibet
This is an independant country in the Himalayas, authored by Vladivostok. --DarthEinstein 15:55, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am guessing that much of the PRC apparatus in Tibet was destroyed along with Lhasa - is this why the Dalai Lama was able to come back so early? Did he face opposition from PRC officials? It seems like the Tibetans made an awfully fast transition from "waiting for the PRC" to "inviting the Dalai Lama". Benkarnell 14:19, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,Tibetans want to be free even now and I think they would quickly jump at the chance to become independent. Three months isn't really that short a time to figure out that help isn't on the way,they had plenty of chances to figure out what happened to the rest of the PRC--Vladivostok 15:02, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * But even with Lhasa gone, there would be oyal PRC officials, soldiers, party members, and functionaries. What happened to them?  Benkarnell 14:13, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,I tried to address this by having the military leader of the Chengdu military district attack the newly formed country. After fierce resistance by the Tibetans and seeing how hopeless the situation was,Fu Quanyou agrees to help the government and integrates his forces into the structure of the country--Vladivostok 09:27, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * And many of the diehards could have fled north, where Communist rule survived in Xinjiang. OK, that answers my only concern. Benkarnell 04:00, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

If there aren't anymore objections I think we should graduate this article. Mitro 16:07, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Portland, Tennessee
Proposal for survivor community north of Nashville, close to the Tennessee-Kentucky border. I'm going to develop it and hang onto this one for awhile, and tie it in to the WCRB article I've started.--BrianD 04:05, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

The Republic of Iowa
I object fiercely! I want a chance to give the doomed nation a makeover. I shall no longer be called New Germany. It shall be called the Republic of Iowa. I take the information in the article, and someone else changes the name of the page itself. --Yankovic270 01:20, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

I would rather New Germany died by my hand then by anyone else's. Though New Germany is dead, that doesn't mean my article is. --Yankovic270 01:42, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Article suggests a survivor state on the Central California coast. No offense to the author but I do not find this nation to be plausible as is. There is near 1 million people living in this nation and I don't think post-Doomsday California could support such a population. Mitro 20:27, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am going to change the population number to 85,000 User:Riley.Konner

Other than a simple population reduction I believe this idea is fine. No matter how hard hit an area is, there will allways be survivors. It's simply human nature. --Yankovic270 20:32, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, there would be survivors. Maybe 20,000-30,000 made up into nomadic tribes that were in constant war over resources. There would be no stable government, if there was one, the land would no longer have been arable, and the desert for all purposes would expand west because of this. Lahbas 22:58, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually that is not a bad idea for the region Lahbas, a small population made up of rival gangs, nomads, tiny hamlets, etc. fighting over resources. Probably not all that different from what the  article looks like.  But an organized nation state is implausible.
 * What does the creator of the article have to say about all of this? He seems to be ignoring the discussions happening on the article's talk page and this page.  Mitro 00:36, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I was waiting for you all to finish If the Central Coast gets accepted then I will begin work on a nation in Santa Cruz which is pretty much what you all talked about. If you actually read the article the nation isn't a superpower as you describe it to be it is a cultural advocate. User:Riley.Konner
 * As of now I can't support the article. It is too optimistic.  The place would have more in common with Road Warrior then what the article suggests.  Mitro 18:42, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * But Santa Cruz would make more since for a road warrior nation, this is because during the years 1982-1985 Santa Cruz was the most dangerous city in the U.S.User:Riley.Konner

Plus if any of you where going to make a nation based off of the region you live in you would probably write the article to the near exactness I have.User:Riley.Konner

I agree with the sentiment. It is what made me decide to create Assiniboia. I do live in Southern Manitoba. --Yankovic270 04:15, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Please check out the newly written article and give me your criticism. User:Riley.Konner 8:05, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that Weird Al might be allive in Central COast? If not then that is fine. --Yankovic270 00:09, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can find any proof that Weird Al might be alive then I'll add a celebrity section to my article. User:Riley.Konner

I cannot find out where "Weird Al" was on Doomsday. My only source of information, the internet, has turned up nothing but countless pages on his albums. --Yankovic270 17:32, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to his website he did a live show in New York in July and December in 1983, but I can't find any info on what he was doing between those times. Its possible he was still in New York, or he could be home in Lynwood, a suburb of LA.  Either way I think its very likely Weird Al would be dead in this TL.  Mitro 18:21, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry Yank the only celebrities that would be alive that I can think of would either be actor or UFC fighter . User:Riley.Konner

Do you know of any celebrities from West Virginia or Nebraska that would have survived? --Yankovic270 02:03, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

There is currently a dispute about whether this article should remain in canon. Please see the article's talk page. Mitro 14:54, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

There is a dispute about the plausibility of this nation. I marked it as a proposal until the dispute is solved. Please see the article's talk page for more info. Mitro 03:02, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion moved to. It had just gotten really, really long, and we seemed to be arriving at a consensus anyway. I'm planning on writing an article in the next couple of days, but they're going to be very busy. If someone else wants to write it based on our discussion, I won't mind. Benkarnell 15:51, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Suez Canal
And now the Suez Canal. According to, El-Cairo, and perhaps Alexandria (not clear in the text) was nuked. This would leave the Suez Canal has a no strike zone. No problem here, it was spared because of tactical issues. It is obvious, considering that the USSR needed a fast and short route to India and Asia for its Black Sea Fleet and supply line. Therefore... get ready for this question... Who controls afterwards the Canal, before giving up the control to the LoN? Egypt? or we get another conflict in Middle East for the control of Suez. --JorgeGG 19:27, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

The Confederation of Greece does. Mr.Xeight 21:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Guyana Cooperativa & French Guyana Suriname (1983: Doomsday)
Why exactly is Guyana not a member of the South American Confederation? It's one of the earliest country pages we have, yet it's never been explained. Is it only a matter of time, do you think?

Along the same lines, with the SAC such a powerful and prosperous organization, have any neighboring states (Central America, the Caribbean) requested membership? Or candidate/observer status? Benkarnell 03:09, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * I have always thought that the natural expansion of the SAC would take it north into Central America and even Mexico. I think Colombia annexing that Costa Rica island is a good example of that.  Mitro 15:08, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * I never developed the Guayana cooperativa to more than a 3 - lines- status... It was created even before Fero added the South American Confederation so it is more a relict country...I tried to give this another destiny than Being absorbed into a unified South America due to French Guyana being always something special as a French territory...

referring to my established description of Guiana Space Centre (1983: Doomsday) and the events between the French Foreign Legion and BRazilian forces "KOrou incident".... the Korou Space centre being a cornerstone for International Cooperation and crucial I would propose the following:

and the Korou Space Centre after the Korou Incident be put under joint French-Brazilian administration in the first place. This later being modified into SAC-French/RTE administration, but NOT becoming part of SAC because resistance from European remainder Government. Suriname (or a leader) seeing advantages of turning to neither European influence nor SAC proposes merging the territories forming some kind of a "South American Switzerland" in 2002. PLebiscites in both countries decide by tight margin to form a unified government declaring "eternal neutrality". The Country being reorganised in a way like pre DD-Switzerland. BOth SAC and European Remainders accept because of Guiana Space Centre and to have a neutral buffer in between. IN the following it would copy Swis strategies and offer attractive tax conditions etc.... becoming an important international HUB, at least in between European and South American Trade. A lot of European Refugees enter and help boost the economy to a relatively rich country.
 * French Guyana& Suriname merging

After the foundation of the LoN in 2009 Suriname/French Guyana place themselves under LON direct administration, giving a basis for international organisations and a precedence for a sovereign nation putting itself under jurisdictional orders.

I would keep the name by communities after a brief stage of civil war starting to cooperate and calling itself Guyana Cooperativa firstly being drawn into the SAC becoming a member state going the "normal way". Maybe a internal political dispute about joining Suriname/French Guyana might arise in the 2000's feeling unimportant along the SAC...
 * Guyana = Guyana Cooperativa

This would be my idea i will start working on now... I reverted the Guyana cooperativa back to Proposal status and insert the pages about French Guyana and Suriname according to above mentioned ideas. PLease keep the pages themselves intact until I announce my proposal work being finished!!!

ANy comments, especially on the idea of converting French Guyana/Suriname into a "international model/precedence state" are welcome. Also keep in mind the proposal of the LoN AUthority for Spatial Operations. But please plce them here !!!--Xi&#39;Reney 20:52, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ;Thank you... and I am feeling the vibe of working on DD again... yeahay...


 * the separate country pages are opened and in proposal status now. --Xi&#39;Reney 21:51, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Wait, isn't the Guyana Cooperativa the former Guyana and Suriname? If so, why do we need an article for Suriname? --DarthEinstein 22:00, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Because I propose a fundamental change in the situation reverting what was somehow canon before regarding Guyana cooperativa..! An Suriname being not that spanish-like many of its neighbours i believe it an interesting move to vary it a bit!...--Xi&#39;Reney 18:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say that I don't like the idea of French Guiana being under direct administration of the LoN. We talked about that idea with the Celtic Alliance berfore, and came to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense for a relatively developed nation to willingly give up its own self government.  It's not as though it were a sensitive, small area like the Canal Zone or Malta - it's a big country, and one with a history of democracy.  Besides which, it would put the country's fate in the hands of who-knows-what faction that happens to be in control of the League.  I think French Guiana is able to declare itself a neutral nation without becoming LoN territory.  Switzerland, after all, managed to do that in OTL, and Vermont is starting to do that in TTL/.  Benkarnell 23:08, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ceding sovereignty indeed just doesn't make sense to me. Even the current LoN territories would be sui generis entities in International Relations which would require a profound restructuring of the way we think about sovereignty. Employing this principle on a country scale seems, at least for the coming decades, just one bridge too far to me.


 * I must admit that I already had some ideas on the Guyana Cooperativa as it used to be, though I never posted them for fear of turning the place as incomprehensible as South Africa due to my lack of time to actually write an article about it. Now that it is being discussed anyway I feel I might as well post it:
 * Venezuela claims the part of Guyana that is west of the Essequibo river, I believe I have seen on several maps that the Venezuelans would try to reclaim the area which I guess makes sense.
 * In a desperate attempt to fend of the invasion, Guyanan authorities might seek help from Suriname.
 * Military dictator Desi Bouterse of Suriname, though not formally speaking in charge surely the 'strong man' of the country at the time, could send his military to the east bank of the Essequibo river. Since I reckon the Venezuelans just won't be interested in conquering the east bank and won't bother crossing it the Surinamese troops won't meet much, if any, resistance. Something I guess one would exploit by claiming this to be a 'tremendous military victory'.
 * The atmosphere created after the invasion will have brought the two countries together, paving the way towards the union as used to be described in the article.
 * Because the country was created after a Venenzuelan invasion, this also gives us a plausible reason for the country not being a member of the SAC.
 * Anyway, it's just an idea. Feel free to comment or to just ignore it. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:08, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Your objections are very plausible. I would propose to merge everything together and get a derivated guideline to which I would base the proposal articles:


 * Guyana and Suriname: maintain from first day on a strong cooperation (as it was established back in May 2008 when I started working on Country Profiles...Guyana Cooperativa even outdates ANZC, SAC, Indonesia and Hawaii...would be a shame to throw away oldest canon parts!)
 * They finally and quickly unite (GUYANA COOPERATIVA) and are able to fend off the Venezuelan attack as Karsten describes...Then an informal "peace/stalemate" is more or less lasting over the years...resulting in Venezuela formally blocking every initiative admitting the Guyana Cooperativa to the SAC though Brazil, French Guyana and other states maintain friendly relations with the GC... a bit feels like a post-doomsday Taiwan, no? leaving space for internal political disputes about joining the SAC or not)


 * French Guyana: Resulting from the "Korou Incident" and the following treaty Brazil guarantees French Guyana's Sovereignty which the Local administration (encouraged by the remains of France and the RTF --- sth. which I completely missed out until now) preserves throughout the years. Some point in 2001 or 2002 French Guyana (then lead by the former Commander of the French Foreign Legion) encouraged by the growing own importance at the SAC/European - Hemisphere Crossing (Guyana Space Centre etc.) proclaims its independence, declaring neutrality and giving itself a constitution modeled on the old Swiss one. International Organisations and also Companies (drawn by special tax laws, especially Commonwealth Multinationals open their dependencies) settle in and around Korou... --Xi&#39;Reney 20:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Makes perfect sense I'd say. Let's go for that :). --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 16:47, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the Cooperativa interested in joining neutral French Guiana? I ask because of the 3 stars on the flag and the undertanding till now that there was a movement for all three to unite somehow.  Maybe the Cooperativa government and the French government have agreed in principle to pursue unification, but have been unable to make concrete progress.  Central America made a similar agreement in the 1990s.  Benkarnell 19:33, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I have been working on the Chile article. I am not an expert on the region so feel free to change or add things to it. Mitro 23:24, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone object to this being added to canon? Mitro 17:49, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * More of a question than an objection: why did Chile democratoze in the late 80s, to the point where Pinochet willinly held a plebiscite on his retention and honored it by stepping down? What caused this democratization?  Benkarnell 17:36, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * My original draft had it happen in the 1990s, but Jorge suggested that even Doomsday wouldn't have prevented democratization from happening in the 1980s. Since I'm not an expert on the region I decided to defer to him.  Mitro 18:50, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, then. I guess someone else can come along to add the whys and wherefores.  But it's nice to have a basic frame to work with, to know when & how Pinochet was ousted.  I think it can be graduated pretty safely.
 * I'm glad we're gradually getting a fuller picture of South America. We're still not sure exactly how democratic-as-of-1990 Venezuela became a People's Republic (canon!) that went around invading Guyana in the 2000s.  Benkarnell 23:52, November 16, 20f09 (UTC)t if he lost and
 * Since the question is the air, the answer. Pinochet's Constitution called for plebiscite to be held in 1988, if he continued for another 8 years. His treated it has was mere a formality, he could win it easily. How ever he lost it. Basically because, has all latinamerican dictatorships, the supposed dangers of communism and cold war conflicts disappeared in 1988. The 1988 plebiscite, also makes a wonderful POD (what if he won, what if he lost and made an autocoup, what if..) For more details [here] and here. Besides in OTL it was already anomalous Pinochet's Dictadorship. --JorgeGG 03:01, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. And it makes sense that he would have lost the vote in TTL as well.  But with the rule of law generally weakened everywhere, this seems like the sort of TL where Pinochet would try an autocoup.  It could be interesting to explore a story unfolding from there, unless you think it's unlikely in this world.  Benkarnell 03:37, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Rather unlikely. The countries in south america would more likely suffer an major economic crisis. Their main markets and suppliers (Europe and USA) are gone. Historically militar ydictadorships in the South are bad economic administrators and the business elite would become critical of their mismanagement and would look for others to solve the problems and build stabler corporate network, and new trading blocks. The weakness of despotic power is that it can't give an efective economic governance in the long run. It can control labor unrest, but not productivity. The rule of law could become a necessity, but has a shared (democratic) task. --JorgeGG 11:19, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Delmarva
In addition to my ongoing work on the Middle East, I have created a survivor nation on the former US East Coast, Delmarva. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Delmarva_(1983:_Doomsday) I have already opened a discussion page and laid out some of my thoughts. Since this is still a work in progress, I welcome your feedback and suggestions. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 03:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Afghanistan has been described as a lawless region in this TL, but I have been wondering about what actually happened post-Doomsday. There were Soviet troops located in Afghanistan at the time of Doomsday, would they have tried to return home or would they remain behind and try to carve out their own territory? Also would the US lob any nukes toward Afghanistan to destroy these forces? Thoughts, comments, questions? Mitro 15:02, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Given the scale of the war that was like a Vietnam for the USSR, I would try get out quickly (perhaps to Siberia or a planned rendezvous point - perhaps a military message sent from the surviving Army command in Siberia) with as much personal and equipment. That would toppled down the so called Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, government that only survived thanks to the Soviet forces. The vacuum of power wouldn't be necessary be filled by the Taliban. Perhaps a long civil war, with Pakistan ambiguous on whom to support. --JorgeGG 15:15, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

I have been pondering this point as well. I think it is likely the US would have attacked Soviet Middle East client states on DDay. I have already incorporated this thought into my work on Syria and the soon to be article on North Yemen. These weapons would have stuck key Soviet targets in the country and facilitated the collapse of the Soviet backed communist government, which was already being propped up. I would see this opening the door to Islamic rebels who were already fighting the communists at the time to eventually take control of the nation at some point and impose an Islamic government. However, there might be a distinct possibility some surviving Soviet forces and Afghan communists might try and create a smaller sub state, akin to something of a warlord, in an isolated section of the country. Though the arguement of trying to withdraw what was left is very logical, if the surviving Soviet command could reach them.--Fxgentleman 15:56, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * So what do you think the targets in Afghanistan would be? Kabul seems like as the capital of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, but would there be any other targets?  Mitro 16:17, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say main target Kabul (2.5 to 3 million of habs) and secondary one, Herat (it seems it was the main access route to USSR). The rest of the country has less then 500 thousand in the next major city. They had a guerrilla warfare so they spread along the country, but the command post is in Kabul. Soviet war in Afghanistan. --JorgeGG 16:34, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

My knowledge being limited in this area, I did some online research and one particularly helpful book was “Afghanistan: The First Five Years of Occupation” The writer stated the three principal Soviet military bases were Dasht-e-Kiligai in Baghlan Province astride the north-south highway; Bagram AFB, 45 miles north of Kabul; and Shindand AFB in Farah Province, 60 miles south of Heart. He also adds, “Soviet army contingents were in all major cities and provincial capitals; at all airfields, and at strategic points along major highways, such as the Salang Pass Tunnel on the main north-south highway. About one-third of the Soviet ground forces were based in the Kabul area….One section of the country, the 185 mile Wakhan Corridor in northeast Badakshan province, was occupied by the Soviets in 1980 and administered solely by them.” The book is very interesting and can found at Google books. Taking all of this into consideration, I would wager taking out Kabul and Herat, along with a number of major bases, especially airfields, might be enough to bring the whole system crashing down. Of course, this is speculation on my part. --Fxgentleman 16:57, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, Fx.  And most survivors would had for Siberia fast as they could.  But probably some troops were stranded in Afg, too - some interesting Soviet-tribal statelike entities might emerge.  Benkarnell 00:58, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Tennessee/Blue Ridge
Proposal pages for the Morristown and Asheville areas I referred to in the 2009 WCRB report on the southern U.S. I wrote up. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Tennessee_%281983:_Doomsday%29 http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Ridge_%281983:_Doomsday%29 --BrianD 00:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Micronesia
Federated States of Micronesia (1983: Doomsday) - I'm sorry to add to the tsunami of new articles, but I've been thinking about this one for a while. A lot of this has been established as canon or been assumed in discussion already. The biggest surprise is that annexation did not finally happen until 2001, not 1995 - the issue was too contentious in Micronesia. The other slightly unusual thing is that the FSM includes the Marshalls and Marianas. Benkarnell 19:57, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= ''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

As a beginning to explain what I mean:

Exact POD definition
Since a long time a TL-inconsistency was September 26th, 1983 being defined as the POD of this ATL..but in fact the POD must be "several days earlier" as defined on the start page. I inserted September 19th decision being made to send Colonel Petrov on a training seminar somewhere else as a provisional explication. Any other versions you might think of? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * hmm. seems like I am too concerned about things no one else is concerned about...I should not spend so much time on them...hmmm...or dramatize them  ...did I loose the feeling for the 1983: Doomsday Timeline...?--Xi&#39;Reney 18:19, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it does seem like a minor technicality; it means you had to change a couple of notes on what, exactly, the POD was. Are you saying there are other butterfly effects from those two days, between the time Patrov was reassigned, and when the blips appeared on the Soviet radar screen?  I think that the two colonels' schedules would have been affected, and their families, and maybe some internal Soviet memos would read differently, but I think the rest of the timeline itself, after the missiles were launched, would be unaffected.  Benkarnell 19:37, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

I afree with ben on this i dont think the date would make that much difference --Sultanate of Luxombergha (Pure Arabica):Owen1983|Owen1983]] 02:10, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Oil Race!!
Originating in the Alaska discussion above I would like to draw your attention to the question /importance of oil in TTL. Giving the cataclysmic dimensions of our Scenario (and learning from Mad Max :P) I would guess that retrieving (or securing) access to oil would be a crucial point for at least the would-be-global player in Geopolitics after 1983...First I try to get an image of the situation in the main oil producing regions, then the necessities/perspectives of the most important nations (again, just from memory, serious backing with figures and fact later.)


 * Middle east: the major producer of oil in then 1983...The whole region plummeted into chaos, largely affecting (at least for the first time) the oil production. ALso if you loose all your main clients every business and first goes down the drain. So Oil production would drop sharply, at least in the major countries like Saudi-Arabia, Iran etc. Taking into account a possible nuclear-going war from Israel, the American based in the region being hit..we would have a large chaos in that region...


 * USSR/ Caucasus... though loosing most of the market in the first moment, the existing oil-producing infrastructure would largely be intact IMO. Allowing for a quite fast recovery and build-up of production, benefiting mostly the Siberian Soviets...

Alaska (:P) would be largely intact though taking a time and a large engineering effort to reinstate significant poduction.. they together would be TOP PRIORITY for the ANZUS (Australia/NZ/APA) to be secured.
 * US: a bit divided... Texas/Mexican Gulf would be out of the game for the next decade at least until the surrounding nations and most important the remnant US entities recover in production and create interest in producing oil again. Until that, regional importance. Maybe interference/operations from Mexiko or even tries by the ANZUS /or European nations trying to protect the oil.


 * South America (espec. Colombia/VENEZUELA)... Able to nearly maintain the level of production. Vital importance for all SAC nations and industries! Large potential for especially Venezuela getting influence


 * South East Asia (Indonesia, Brunei etc.) ... as established quite chaoic but rebuilding to Brunei (1983: Doomsday) and Indonesia (1983: Doomsday) and the need for oil/fuel by neighbouring ANZUS/later Commonwealth should lead to a significant production being maintained.

Now some countries perspective:

they are dependent from importation...IN the first time after Doomsday, trying to upkeep industrial production and military power they will HAVE to reach out for something overseas... First wouñld be Indonesia (and the region) of course but then (and adding Hawaii to the game) securing US Oil (also to protect someone else laying the hands on it) they would reach out for Alaska and (to a smaller extent) the Gulf of Mexiko. High motivation in the early years coming from the rival SAC having their "on oil well in the garden" and the Siberians in the North. Middle East virtually out of reach.
 * APA/ Australia/NEw Zealand/ Hawaii... Having not really a large domestic production (though some NZ oil is OTL being found in NEW Plymouth)


 * European Remainder&Canada entities...would strongly rely on the Celtic Alliance/Nordic Union production in the North/Barent Sea and aiding in Securing the Gulf of Mexiko and maybe trying to get some influence in the Middle East, especially as ADC later on...


 * Siberia: has a head on because of HUGE domestic potential or large resources in relatively close reach.


 * SAC: as explained has the vital resource on the doorstep... maybe some domestic discussions and problems because Venezuela trying to play out its influence.


 * OPEC: a bit hard to think... with world communications largely down and the global oil market (and stock markets) wiped out I doubt the Opec would exist, at least effectively even though Vienna is largely intact (Alpine Confederation).

role of the LoN ? I would doubt that even after 27 years the major nations would allow or cede any control of oil resources to the LoN...more than a puppet "LoN OIl Organization" would me be more than an illusion.

PLot perspectives? Getting the control on oil would be a major motive in the post-Doomsday world, given Nuclear power being quite discredited and "Green technology" (at least until the 2000`s) not getting dynamic due to technological loss...the "Race to the Middle East" or a possible try by Greeks, Egypt, Iran to get hand on the wells in the Arabic...a lot of potential for worldwide stories and impact. --Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

I saw a map that showed a petroleum deposit lining the east coast of America. And Virginia is just the kind of nation to abuse, and ignore the enviromental side effects. --Yankovic270 02:19, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I can see some sort of global role for Indonesia, as it was OTL a member of OPEC until 2008. In regards to the Gulf of Mexico, the only real players in the region would have been Mexico and Cuba. Mexico would have been the more stable of the two nations and therefore able to establish a foothold there above everyone else.--BrianD 02:43, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * This may be helpful for editors in developing scenarios. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Oil_fields_by_country --BrianD 02:48, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Another thing to consider is oil shale reserves. How difficult it would be to extract usable petroleum from shale needs to be determined, but they could be of interest to nations post DD looking to find oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_reserves --BrianD 02:50, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

The NAU likely has oil - the Alberta oil sands. Could also explain why they are such a large stable country. --DarthEinstein 03:27, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

For awhile, I have laying out where I planned to take the nations of the Middle East I am working on, specifically those of the Arabian Peninsula, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, etc. Part of this revolves around the effect of Doomsday on the oil market. In 1983, much like today, their economies revolved largely around the production, refinement, and shipping of oil and natural gas to nations such as the US, China, Japan, India, and Western Europe. Additionally, the revenue derived from this helped to fuel the vast modernization and public works projects which transformed these countries. With Doomsday, these customers are essentially gone. I see their economies taking a nosedive, as revenue drives up. Nations will still be buying from them, but not at the same rate. For the most part I see countries reaching out to local sources, such as the Celtic Empire going to the North Sea; North America and South America to Canada, the Gulf of Mexico, Mexico, and Venezuela; Russia their own fields; and ANZAC, most likely Indonesia. With many sources and few customers, the customer is in the position to shop around for the best price and quickly whatever is left of OPEC vanishes as everyone is out for everyone else. More than likely we would see regional cartels. My future for the Arabian Peninsula is for their economies to dovetail. This in turn halts internal projects. Also, with companies laying off thousands of workers competition for jobs will become intense and as a result, populations go nativist in that they expel the thousands of foreign workers in ugly and violent purges in order to preserve jobs for nationals first. The royal families/sheiks/emirs will suddenly find themselves poorer as their overseas bank accounts and gold supplies evaporate overnight, impacting their hold on power. As a result, these nations band together and form an Arabian Union, a la OTL European Union, which will allow them to combine resources and survive for the foreseeable future while ensuring those in power, stay in power over time. They had started to move in a similar direction a few years earlier and I see the process being accelerated by events. Before I publish my articles for these nations, I thought it best to lay out my mindset and this section seemed the best because of the topic and the role it plays. I would appreciate any input regarding where I am going. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 03:40, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

When it comes to fuel I see Virginia either importing from their close friend Kentucky, or attemppting to find and alternate source of fuel to get an atvantage. Lincoln woyld get it from the NAU. Yankovic270 03:49, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Doomsday Report outdated and confusing
The Doomsday report and especially the nuked points map is IMO not really useful and just adding to confusion and getting in the way of advances. This map was quite auickly made by Fero without having been discussed within here too much. And as current problems ar based on this (radiation ways etc.) I suppose we need to thoroughly revise the Report and specifically the map... --Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, the whole article needs to be revised to take into account all of the new targets that have been mentioned on other articles. I have marked is as a proposal until the dispute is over.  Mitro 19:14, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea on the map. I had asked Fero where he got his information, and it seemed from his answer as if everything was based on his conjecture of where the fallout would have gone. I didn't challenge him on it, largely because I thought it was seen as his proposal. But with it being seen as canon, if it is going to be canon it needs to be discussed by the entire community. --BrianD 19:19, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

the articles needs to be consistent to avoid confusion --Owen1983 02:13, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Problems with the Timeline

 * Before we progress any further, we need to discuss two major points in the timeline


 * 1) According to the timeline, there is a nuclear summer during the following year after Doomsday, with tempatures 10-25 dgerees above normal, average, whichever. This brings up the rate at which ice is melting at the caps during that one year. Normally this would be unimportant, but we need to know how high the sea levels are going to rise and their effects on global geograhpy, at least in the immediate aftermath (since atfer this point tempatures are going to go down to unrecorded lows, but only after a number of years). Here is a document that showed areas in the Southern United States that would be effected in a small rise: http://blogs.trb.com/news/specials/newsillustrated/blog/2008/05/sea_level_rise_will_we_be_subm.html


 * 2) What happened to India? There is only a very small chance that it got nuked by China (whose entire arsenal was based on bombers at the time, many who probably did not get off the ground), and almost no chance by any other nuclear power. Pakistan did not have nuclear weapons until 1998, so India likely would have pushed to recapture the remainder of its disputed territories. Still, it is possible that the economic collapse could have resulted in enough social unrest to tear apart the nation, even with a stable government. This is a big "if" however. Lahbas 00:24, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) The Climate page addresses most of this. Louisianan has thought it through fairly well.  Since we've never actually had a nuclear war, all ideas about their effects on the climate are basically hypothetical, so I believe we picked a theory and went with it.  What is written is written (QSS), and anything else can ad to, but should not really subtract from it.  Nuclear Summer, I think, probably led to some genuinely abnormal weather patterns but not large-scale melt.
 * 2) Again, what we have is that India fell apart and Pakistan did not. Now, both of those key pieces of info predate 90% of the total content of the project.  The best answer is that the "if" you speak of came true.  It may be that we need to add some more support structure to the why and wherefore of it all, but it would be very, very hard to retool something that is so foundational to the TL.  Benkarnell 01:37, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright then, but we have to imagine that in the first year those areas would be flooded, only to largely recede over the next couple years. However, what should be noted is that the lack of high levels of carbon dioxide, which would stunt plant growth (it has been proven that ALL plant life grows better in enviroments richern in Carbon Dioxide). We also should assume that, as a result of Global Cooling and increase in glacial ice, the sea levels have lowered by about 5-10 meters over the years. Lahbas 02:48, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * When I first started working on the TL the timeline said India fell apart, had a brief period of reunification under the UIP and then fell apart again shortly thereafter. I did some work on India, I created the map of balkanized India, but I really did not go into detail about how it happened.  Later MCPrank came in and began taking the India article in a different direction with the UIP, now armed by ANZC, retaking the breakaway states.  For some reason Prank and I got into an argument about whether India would have collapsed following Doomsday.  Deciding to stick with canon, I did some research and discovered that early 1980s India was not a very stable place and there was a lot of social unrest.  There was the rise of insurgents in Punjab; violence in Assam between native villagers, refugees from Bangladesh and other Indians; tensions with the Sikhs after Operation Bluestar; abuse of civil liberties; and Indira Gandhi would have been assassinated by her own Sikh bodyguards in 1984 touching off the death of over 3000 Sikhs. Consider the political and economic effects of Doomsday, this social unrest could only get worse.  Meanwhile if we consider Jorge's recent map on wind patterns, India would receive fallout from the nuclear strikes in China which would only make things worse.  I think it is plausible that India would collapse, it fits with the general them of the TL for one thing, but we do need some detail on how exactly it happened.  Mitro 15:33, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am with you on the collapse of India. seeing Wikipedia pretty rough times. To many ethnic and religious clashes between groups and also to consider some communist guerrillas warfare in some states. Perhaps in a future development in can be inserted a charismatic leader modeled in the M. Ghandi to once again unite India. Bangladesh also. I think Pakistan would also take advantage on the Kashmir to integrate it completely and has a payback on the failed intents of 1947, 1965 (and 1999 in OTL). --JorgeGG 16:07, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm glad you agree with what we have! According to current articles, Pakistan did annex the entire Kashmir and has begun sort-of expanding into Afghanistan. Benkarnell 16:39, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

So most of us seem to be in agreement over what little we have about India... but it really needs more detail, in my opinion. Also look at my articles and ; two states that border India and should be referenced in India's page. These pages also explain the creation of one of the breakaway states of India. --DarthEinstein 17:10, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you add such info? As the author of those articles you are in the best place to properly explain it.  Mitro 18:31, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I am finding references in the and  that India was nuked during Doomsday.  This seems unlikely to mean, I believe India was a member of the non-aligned movement.  I know Lahbas mentioned that China might have done it, but again that doesn't seem that plausible to me either.  Mitro 18:47, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I added the information about Sikkim; I also added sections where the different breakaway states can be elaborated upon. About India being nuked, I don't see any reason why they would be nuked... then again, I don't really know much about the region at all. My articles about Bhutan and Nepal were really just stabs in the dark aided by Wikipedia. If India wasn't nuked, though, it would be the most populous region in the world, I think. And as a safe (radiation safe, that is) region, India would attract a lot of refugees fleeing China. The Chinese populations of Indochina would also increase, I think. Come to think of it, what is in Indochina? This region hasn't been explored yet, does anyone have any ideas about how to proceed with it? --DarthEinstein 20:01, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * It might be worthwhile to do a little region-by-region planning, similar to what's been done in the Middle East and the northeastern part of Asia, and to a lesser extent in Central America and parts of the USA. There are a few regions of the world that are totally untouched: mainland Southeast Asia, like you say, but also China, Eastern Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa aprt from Angola, South Africa, and Liberia.  It might be good to just come up with some vague plans for what is in there.  Of course, it's not like there's any rush.  If 5 years go by before we have any contributors interested in, say, Cambodia, it's not as though something terrible will happen.  We're all just having fun, after all.  Benkarnell 22:10, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, in reagrds especially in low-lying regions, will we see new bodies of water? (like in Florida, Louisiana, Netherlands, Belgium, etc.) Lahbas 01:42, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, on that last note I meant in regards to the geographical damage done by nuclear detonations. Lahbas 14:49, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

there are minor hiccups but louisianan has don a great job but we need to determin indias fate and region planning

There is an article on an emergency broadcast message warning about the impending missile attack. There is a chance that Weird Al may have heard it and evacuate the city. Would he have enough time to get to a safe place? Like upstate New York or Vermont.

ps: move this message into the Central Coast part of this talk page

--Yankovic270 06:19, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Bush Family
- President and First Lady Confirmed Alive


 * Dorothy Walker Bush - In Greenwich, Connecticut during Doomsday. Almost assuredly dead
 * George Herbert Walker Bush – Removed by Secret Service to Mount Weather on Doomsday. Survived
 * Barbara Pierce Bush - Removed by Secret Service to Mount Weather on Doomsday. Survived
 * George W. Bush - In Midland, Texas during Doomsday. Likely to have Survived
 * Laura Lane Welch Bush – In Midland, Texas during Doomsday. Likely to have Survived
 * Barbara Pierce Bush – With Family. Likely to have Survived
 * Jenna Welch Bush – With Family. Likely to have Survived
 * John Ellis Bush - In Miami, Florida during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely Dead
 * Columba Bush – In Miami, Florida on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * George Prescott Bush – With Family. Likely Dead
 * Noelle Lucila Bush – With Family. Likely Dead
 * Neil Mallon Bush - In Denver, Colorado during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely Dead.
 * Sharon Bush – With Neil. Likely Dead
 * Marvin Pierce Bush - In Ft. Worth, Texas during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely Dead
 * Dorothy Bush Koch - In Boston, Massachusetts during Doosmday attending college, which was hit. Likely Dead.


 * Nancy Walker Bush Ellis - In Milton, Massachusetts during Doomsday. Likely Dead.


 * William Henry Trotter Bush - In St. Louis, Missouri during Doomsday, which was hit. Likely Dead


 * Jonathan James Bush - Unsure (May have been in New Haven, Connecticut, in which case he likely would be dead, or New Haven, Maine, where he would likely be alive)
 * Josephine Bush – Unsure, same as above.
 * William Hal Bush – With Family. Unsure
 * Jonathan S. Bush – With Family. Unsure

Kennedy Family

 * Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy - Either at Brookline or Hyannis Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead


 * Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis - Likely in New York City on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Caroline Bouvier Kennedy - Likely in New York City on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * John Fitzgerald Kennedy Jr. - Interesting Development! (Would have been at the University of Delhi in India on Doomsday. Whether he would survive the social turmoil that followed is another matter) Possibility of Survival


 * Rosemary Kennedy – At St. Coletta School for Exceptional Children in Jefferson, Wisconsin on Doomsday. Likely Dead


 * Eunice Kennedy Shriver - Likely in Washington D.C. on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Robert Sargent Shriver Jr. - Likely in Washington D.C. on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Robert Sargent Shriver III - In New York City on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Maria Owings Shriver - Likely in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Timothy Perry Shriver - Likely attending Catholic University of America in Worcester, Massachusetts. Possibility of Survival
 * Anthony Paul Kennedy Shriver - Either at North Bethesda in Maryland or attending Brown University in Washington D.C. Likely Dead


 * Patricia Helen Kennedy Lawford - Lived in New York City. Likely Dead
 * Peter Sydney Vaughn Lawford - Lived in Los Angeles. Almost Certainly Dead (due to health complications at the time)
 * Christopher Kennedy Lawford - Unsure. Likely Dead


 * Ethel Skakel Kennedy - Lived at the Kennedy Compound in Hyannis Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Kathleen Hartington Kennedy Townsend - Lived in New Haven Connecticut on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Joseph Patrick Kennedy II - Likely lived in Cambridge Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Robert Francis Kennedy Jr. - Unsure (Sure traveled a lot) Likely Dead
 * David Anthony Kennedy - Unsure (Spent time during September 1983 at Spofford Hall in New Hampshire, but can't find the time he left) Likely Dead
 * Mary Courtney Kennedy Hill - Either Washington D.C. or Bethesda, Maryland. Likely Dead
 * Michael LeMoyne Kennedy - Lived in Cohasset, Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Mary Kerry Kennedy - Unsure (Started traveling with Human Rights Delegations around the globe) Possibility of Survival
 * Christopher George Kennedy - Attending Boston College in Boston, Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Matthew Maxwell Taylor Kennedy - Likely attending Georgetown Preparatory School in North Bethesda, Maryland. Likely Dead
 * Douglas Harriman Kennedy - Still attending Georgetown Preparatory School in North Bethesda, Maryland. Likely Dead
 * Rory Elizabeth Katherine Kennedy - Unsure, though likely with family. Likely Dead


 * Jean Anne Kennedy Smith - Lived in New York City on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Stephen Edward Smith - Lived in New York City on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Stephen Edward Smith Jr. - Unsure. Likely Dead
 * William Kennedy Smith - Attending Duke University at Durham, North Carolina on Doomsday. Possibility of Survival
 * Amanda Mary Smith - Likely remained with the main family. Likely Dead
 * Kym Maria Smith - Likely remained with the main family. Likely Dead


 * Edward Moore Kennedy - Likely in Washington D.C. Likely Dead
 * Joan Bennet Kennedy - Lived in Boston, Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Kara Anne Kennedy - Attending Tufts University in Medford, Massachusetts on Doomsday. Likely Dead
 * Edward Moore Kennedy Jr. - Either Attending St. Albans in Washington D.C. or Wesleyan University in Middleton Connecticut. Likely Dead
 * Patrick Joseph Kennedy - Unsure. Likely Dead


 * These hurt to write. Lahbas 06:50, November 17, 2009 (UTC)