Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Second Chinese Algorythm
Hey, I don't know if I have the authority to do the chances or not and I don't know if I need the chart used in the previous algorythm for the Chinese conquest of Central America. Anywho, can someone make an algorythm please? CrimsonAssassin 12:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Anyone can do the algorithm, it is just preferred for you to show your work. I will do it when it comes time for the weekend. In the meantime, feel free to strategically choose a starting year. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:26, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1464


 * 2x2x1=4


 * 1464/4=366 xpi = 1149.822911213864328


 * Chance= 8


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 38

Mayans

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 2 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 28

Result
Decisive Chinese victory. China is entitled to 15.15% of Mayab's land.

38/66= .575757

.575757- .5= .075757

.075757 * 2= 15.15%

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1476
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1476/4=369 xpi = 3641.884024001972777
 * Chance= 7


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 37

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 1 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 29

Result
Decisive Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 12.12% of Aztec Territory

37/66= .5656

.5656 - .5= .0656

.0656 * 2= .1212

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1477
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1476/4=369.25 xpi = 1160.033087338031065
 * Chance= 5


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 35

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 33

Result
Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 2% of Aztec Territory

35/68= .5147

.5656 - .5= .0147

.0147* 2= .02

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1465


 * 2x2x1=4


 * 1464/4=366.25 xpi = 1150.608309377261686


 * Chance= 6


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 36

Mayans

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 4 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 30

Result
Decisive Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 9% of Mayab's land.

36/66= .5454

.5454 - .5= .0454

.0454 * 2= .09

Kunarian's potential rule violations
Kunarian has recently begun to violate numerous rules of this game. First, he has added way more vassal states than the current limit (2, according to the rules page), as well as the fact that most are not contiguous to his nation. Once more, for many of those he didn't give any sort of RP reason for the conquerings (He just proclaims that Venice rules over Savoy, without mentioning any dispute, dynastic union, or other reasons for his domination) He has also gone over the current maximum number of allowed colonies per 50 year period, edited the main map without permission (resulting in the huge mix-up that occured earlier), as well as shown unrealistic strength for a nation that just fought for its independence (within a few years of a revolution against the Papal states, he defeated a much larger nation and then began to conquer other Italian states as well. Something must be done. LurkerLordB 21:13, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * About Savoy, these are claims they had ben not made yet.

And, the rules state that is possible to make supernational confederations, and his may be one, (the states on a supernational confederation won't count as vassals).--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Venice would not rule over the other ones, but in this case, Venice controls the other states, even if loosely. LurkerLordB 21:23, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry posted before you two but there was an edit conflict.

I have explained they are not vassal states but you fail to recognise this fact, I asked DK and Collie about it and there was a resounding answer that I had to make a Union like the Holy Roman Empire or have 2 vassals so I made a Union. Also the Union of the northern states is easily likely to happen due to events thanks to the HRR and Naples itself. Also I have only made claim to Savoy not conquered it, I made that clear, DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CLAIM AND A CONQUEST? Also I have conquered one colony and established two the conquered one does not count. I have edited the map as it says in the rules, to give a map detailing my moves, did you read them enough? The algorithm states that I won against Hungary and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conquests. Also I didn't conquer them, you saw how well that went with Milan, I incorporated them into a Union. Something must be done about your lack of understanding of my moves. Kunarian 21:24, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Now for the unpdated post, Venice controls them as a central government and can control them quite well due to the benefits Venice has brought and the security that the northern states have always striven for. Kunarian 21:25, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

A Union would have all the states equal, not Venice ruling over them. Also, you can't just claim nations and not expect them to resist at least some. There is a reason why all the Italian states didn't unite before, and there is a reason that in real life they only united after several foregin invasions, revolutions, and wars. There is absolutely no reason why the northern states would react in response to Naples, because Naples signed a peace treaty with all of them after getting Corsica that they would expand no further into Italy. Yankovic, who is on the moderator list, stated that taking colonies by war is not an exception to the 2 colonies rule. I do not understand "and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conflicts". Please explain. Also, there is no reason to shout at people with capital letters. LurkerLordB 21:36, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I changed the title and some stuff that I was afraid may have been too confrontational. LurkerLordB 21:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the rules stating that it is okay to have more than 2 colonies if you conquer one. Personally I would love to be able to use conquest to establish/expand colonies. I would finish off the Morrocan Marinid Sultanate and be done with it. Regardless it is still a violation of the rules, and should be punished as such.

Yank 21:45, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Its a confederate union were they have flexibility that gives them contentment to be part of the union, however Venice being the big breadwinner makes the rules so to say, what your saying is like saying that Prussia didn't rule over the states in Germany as key holder during the first decades of the German Empire. The northern states value security and soveriegnty over all things and so being in a Confederate Union is about as far as they would go plus the Papal states tried to conquer them quite violently so too, also Naples ripped up the treaty saying that they would defend the nations of italy and not expand so naturally they are going to be even more drawn to a Union. Also look on DK's talk page and you will see that Yankovic is suspended for the time being of his moderator priviledges. Plus the rules themselves clearly states that ESTABLISHING only counts and conquering is very different to that. Basically about the rule, I can assume that DK thought that the previous war algorithms which made nations with vassals or in personal dynastic unions lose 33% of their warscore was a bit unfair and unrealistic after Venice's crushing victory so removed it in the latest renewment of the rules.

Also thank you for change some things, makes it less of an arguement and more of a debate.

Btw Yank it's not a violation of the rules so lets wait for DK to come along and sort this ok, I think we both got in our points. Kunarian 21:47, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I calmed down and see that I may have overreacted a bit. I didn't see what DK posted on Yank's page, so I will wait for the moderators to decide this policy. I will accept your dominance of the north Italian states as long as you RP the two small ones and South Savoy joining (perhaps with some resistance). I did see your point on the main page about the Mamluk colonies, I got a bit impatient after several years of posting "Naples prepares its forces, if the Mamluks are going to send troops to free their colony", so I just said that they won and if someone ever made an algorithim I lost later I would have them break free. I'll have some general colonial resistance along the line. Just as long as you RP the occupation of Savoy and the two little states well, and perhaps show some problems with disunity, I will drop my claims against you, and will have more colonial dificulties (like that one recession earlier from overexpansion). However, in-game hostilities between Naples and Venice may continue... LurkerLordB 21:59, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already begun deeply RPing them to join, for instance Milan would not join completely at this time at all. Also Savoy would not join at the moment as it is split into two major zones of influence, French and Italian. Also we need to RP the Venetian troops conflict in Cuba, because we both know why they are there and it has something to do with the words: Claim, Bahamas, Declined, Aggressive and Colonialism. And I understand about tensions so don't worry. Kunarian 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about this, the only known example of this case of colony conquering before Venice was when France bought a Brandenburgian colony in the 1580s.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:49, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the colonization rules either confirming or refuting that colonies by conquest are immune from the normal rules of colonization. I'm inclined to believe that they aren't, as it would create an all-to-convienient loophole to an imprtant rule of the map game. And my name is still part of the list as the punishment was only until I got a better attitude, and I have. I no longer wish to invade Kunarian's precious Ireland. I still think that Kunarian's actions are still highly hypocritical. Even if we discont his actions in North Italy (and I don't think we should), he still has given Christian Spain support to invade the equally Christian sovreign nation of Portugal. The fact that he stood to prevent my invasion of Ireland and supports of Spain's invasion of Portugal stinks of favoritism and prejudice. He trots out messages of Christian unity only when they serve his purposes. In other words Kunarian has become another Janusary.

Yank 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

But Yank, loophole or not its how things actually worked OTL and how things should continue to work ATL, maybe a better thing to do would be to say that conquered colonies have penalties for a time such as limited expansion. There is no difference between Portugal and Ireland but the situation that it is occuring under, it could more be seen as a unification of the lands and plus it could be for more logical reasons that the invasion of Ireland. Plus I act as the Doge is supposed to and this new Doge is Christian with a strong sense of Unionism as I have RPed in game. Also no, Janusary did stupid mad things like revive his emperor while talking to his magic cat and firing missiles from the future. I simply have been very sucessful with my resources. Kunarian 22:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian may be advancing a little fast, but he is definately not doing the ridiculous stuff that Janusary wasLurkerLordB 22:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember when he presented the keys of Delhi to the ghost of Jehoichim? Lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:19, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Or that time when Jahangir (which was, anyway?) resolved to get from India to Torquay in a rowboat?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:22, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I read his stuff and could not stop laughing, they were very entertaining especially the Emperors cat one. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * What year was that???Scandinator

If you feel I am going too fast then I will slow down but I need to be able to work with nations because when conflict arises you need to move fast and so Venice has had to, It had a war with Hungary then wanted to secure itself against HRR and then moved to stop European expansion by outside powers and now it claims are actively being challenged and violated not even negotiated. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

From what I see, there's not a real problem, but I'm going to clarify a few rules. Colonies gained by conquest are just like any other colony. I remember stating that explicitly back during the Mughal War. Also, Kunarian, it is okay to have a loose confederation, but you can't simply annex other countries. I can kind of understand that Venice is kind of the liberal of the game, but normal old conquest of nearby nations rarely fails. Another option, a major personal union of Milan and Venice might cause many other nations to become sattelites, and eventually be incorporated after several decades. Be creative. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Mamluk Cuba War
Next turn I will post that the Venetian aid to the Mamluk resisters caused a conflict. Be warned, the Mamluk Cuba war will be very messy... LurkerLordB 22:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Posted about it, I think we should make this conflict slowly evolve to be one of the most bloody proxy wars in history, would be pretty interesting actually. I think we should make it last and make it interesting and entertaining. Kunarian 22:38, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

My main idea is that it won't just be a war between Naples and Venice over that colony, that the native tribes and Mamluks will all revolt turning it into chaos. LurkerLordB 22:52, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Considering Venice supporting all these other wars it would make sense for it to be a Venetian-Mamluk-Native Coalition using both conventional and unconventional warfare Versus Naples and turncoats using conventional warfare primarily. And for there still to be a balance of power that would even out every time a new side joined their rivals joined the other side. Kunarian 22:58, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, with all of the other wars, Venice probably wouldn't be able to declare a full-fledged war on Naples, their military would be too divided. So that is why the fighting would be restricted to the Caribbean colonies. LurkerLordB 01:42, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

The revolts have begun, if Venice keeps on supporting the Mamluk-Venice faction, then the revolts could escalate up to full-on civil war in Ricasolia. LurkerLordB 01:59, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Future of the Bahamas
I think we need to discuss how we are going to divide the Bahamas between Naples, Venice and Vietnam. I see the Bahamas as being a future source of conflict, and I wish to nip that conlict in the bud. I want to know what Naples and Venice control in the island chain. I do believe that there is enough to split between the three of us.

Yank 02:50, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Naples controls a portion of the big island in the south, Venice controls the small ones in the middle. Of course, this may change after the Ricasolian war, so maybe we should wait until then. LurkerLordB 02:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should decide the divide now then RP out a nice proxy war like we are now and then end up with our nations agreeing on a treaty which devides the Bahamas as planned, so heres my proposal keeping in mind that I have given Venice every middle island already colonised and all those above. feel free to modify if you disagree. Kunarian 06:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm OK with the division plan for the Bahamas. I plan on taking a portion of Hispaniola to link them with the Lesser Antiles.

Yank 04:03, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Savoy division
Apparently Venice will go to war with Savoy, and I want propose a possible post-war division of its territory.

It's only an approximation. I want give to Venice the most of the territory, give a mediterranean coast to Burgundy (In such case I'll have to give a little territory) and some lands for me. As I said, the map is only an approximation, but the black lines represent the proposed borders. --Galaguerra1 23:18, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

It's sort of awkward that Burgundy is divided in two like that.LurkerLordB 23:44, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Awkward, but no problems. Check out Spain's borders in OTL at the time. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  04:43, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the Venetian proposed borders based on the Savoy Proclamation. It gives France the north, Venice the south and Burgundy a small enclave due to their lack of claim (as in native population) to the area, it is small yes but provides the nessesary tunnel to the sea however it will require France to hand over a tiny piece of land. Kunarian 00:29, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree with yout proposal. By now...lets wait the Jaeden's opinion. --Galaguerra1 01:58, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. (Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos 17:56, September 29, 2011 (UTC)).

Venetian

 * Close to the location of the war: 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Venice, Milan, France, Burgundy: 12
 * Side with greater population: 2
 * Military Expansion: 9
 * Territorial Expansion: -2
 * Motive is political: 5
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 245/960*pi = 0.8017606251% → 0
 * Editcount: 245
 * Time: 18:35:24 → 1*8*3*5*2*4 =960

Total: 40
 * Country does not rule said area: 0

Savoy
Total: 29
 * At the location of the war: 5
 * Savoy: 3
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Territorial Expansion: 0
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance (random.org): 6
 * Has owned the area for 151+ years: -5

Result
(2*40/(40+29)-1)*1.5=0.23913043478260869565217

Major Venetian victory

Venice has taken 23% of Savoy

Discussion
Hey. Savoy is in unity fine. Also, even if there wasn't full unity, you would do the 1.5 multiplier at the end, to the final result. So you would calculate (2*40/(40+29) - 1) * 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I already put that there was strife between the french and Italian parts of the nation. Kunarian 23:52, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Do I need to do another algorithm? I know that I will get the ten percent needed to overthrow their government. Kunarian 20:52, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

The other people should pitch into the war effort if they want territory. With three people each having a separate algorithm, you need only a total of 60%, which divides it more evenly among everyone. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:29, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

In such case I want my own algortihm ^^ --Galaguerra1 04:46, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

We already worked out a way to devide it. I would simply take it then split the territory up afterwards. Kunarian 19:59, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Swedo-Russian War (continued)
Sweden lost the war. But in all fairness, LurkerLordB said something about Sweden's side having an extra vassal up their sleeve?

Well, hate to make up rules halfway through the war, but it is only fair that because Sweden dropped out of the war:


 * 1) Sweden surrenders any chance of winning. This goes without saying.
 * 2) Sweden surrenders any territory it lost if it loses. This also goes without saying.
 * 3) The war algorithm starts again, with the opponent having attackers' advantage. If Sweden drops out of the war, it would be a perfect opportunity for Russia to go in and take territory in real life.  Dropping out doesn't make you immune unless you do diplomacy.  There has to be some "catch" to dropping out.  However, this may be strategically beneficial because you will be against a weaker opponent if you got a disadvantage in the chance or military updating section.
 * 4) Sweden has the opportunity to declare truce for any length of time with Russia's agreement, which Sweden can use to update their military. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  04:41, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

And if Joseon plans on taking any territory, they have to do their own algorithm. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:42, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

StarkBlack's Inactivity
Shouldn't the Ottomon EMpire be listed as inactive? I thought I remember StarkBlack being gone for at least a week. If not, when will Stark be officially listed as inactive?

Yank 17:57, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

Give it awhile. I want to have fun slowly collapsing his empire. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:53, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

First Kulin War


This was awhile ago, but I forgot to post it. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:36, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Can I Join?
My name is SliceB00m, I want to join because a friend recommended me. I want to be Scotland.SliceB00m 20:33, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome! Feel free to add yourself to the country sign-up. Make sure you are familiar with the and procedures, but you should be able to catch on pretty quickly. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:36, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Also, doesn't Scotland control Ireland in this game too as the Keltic union? LurkerLordB 12:47, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, since the Kelts went inactive, the things had been a mess.apparently Ireland is independent, given that Vietnam almost went at war with Venice over that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:34, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I believe Scotland is an Anglo-German puppet and Ireland is in severe disarray. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:16, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Things change. Japan went from a major colonial power to a Vietnamese vassal state. Besides, Zagoria hasn't said a word about Scotland for centuries. It is very apparent that Scotland isn't on Z's list of priorities. SO, it'd be very easy for the Scots to take full independance from the Anglo-Germans. They might be able to sweeten the pot by gving the portions of former England they stole all those years back in exchange for their independance.

Yank 21:40, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Scotland isn't marked on the map as a vassal state, and Zagoria has been inactive so long, it should be easy to break away from his nation. LurkerLordB 22:21, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Eldwolf
NVM, an admin dealt with the issue. LurkerLordB 23:00, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Zagoria
Zagoria has been gone for two weeks. I thought that a user is declared inactive if they miss half that time. I know Zagoria's Anglo-Germany is an important nation, but why are we suspending a rule for a user's benefit?

Yank 16:22, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

True, he went away with no warning, and it is doubtful that he will come back. If he is rendered inactive, will his nation stay together, or will England and Germany (and maybe Denmark) break apart into their own nations after the civil disarray? LurkerLordB 00:19, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Absence
I have to leave temporary the game for study Problems, I guess I will return Within a week the Map Game. I'll let Galaguerra control Burgundy in my absence, as a personal union. Greetings :D! (Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos 18:26, October 3, 2011 (UTC)).