Talk:1983: Doomsday

Revised Introduction
edited and revised the introduction. Thanks for any feedback concerning writing style:) PLease correct mistakes as this is the principal page of this ATL. Have fun reading and enjoy the ATL !:) --Xi&#39;Reney 14:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The original ?
see what i find the day after is the most close i feel, look the date --Fero 07:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * read through this. veryvery intersting. are really impressing similarities to the course of the nuclear exchange... but your title ""the original"" ^^ first the POD of our ATL is quite different and a Real event - there has been intense military build up and conventional warfare before the commando to a first single and then total exchange. And the date... hmm sort of coincidence I suppose.

Remark 1: In General there are a lot of scenarios depicting a war - both conventional and nuclear- between the US and USSR in literature and often set in the mid - 1980's as tensions were high (see Perhshing II - stationing in Germany). E.g. I read a less-known book "The 3rd World War" by former NATO General Sir John Hackett describing conventional - only one exchange destroying Birmingham and Minsk- setting all in 1984. the "Woverine" film suggested a WWIII with US invasion.

Remark 2:

in the timeline discussion page the first remarks are the whole "Doomsday" scenario to be extremely similar to the "On the beach" scenario. Unfortunately the original author was no registered user so we can'T ask him...

Remark 3:

I researched a little bit in the very first versions of this ATL (when only the Timeline existed)... I compared to WIKI and found that the introductory text was nearly exactly the Wikipedia text as in the article about the Colonel.

So I still consider this a lone-standing and independent ATL, which did not copy -the furthest adapt details- from other ideas or copyrighted material around ;) --Xi&#39;Reney 11:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * yes that is soooooooooooow similar to In the beach, maybe not a copy but very influence, and yes, war betwine USA an URSS un a clasic movie plot. (is a classic plot here too, in alt his) aniway i am WCRB CCSA - WCRB Comando Central de Sudamérica, Argentina Fero reporting and you have a great español --Fero 12:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

cold war 1979-1985
and a good map, maybe base of explication because this is nuked and that not, and why here come a soviet missil and there a american missil --Fero 07:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * will examine this. thanks for the hint !! :)

We love Nuclears Alt Historis
1983 is very nuclear, fear run our blood and we like that, for this you are invited to
 * UKend Monday June 23 of 2008, 7 nuclears explosion blow up in the United Kingdom, only in bigges cities of England. A empire without king who brothers nation present herself to protected, the fall of the 5th economy and second military spender of the world.


 * and in the other side Nein: In 1921 promising German theoretical physicist Albert Einstein dies in his first visit to the USA. He never makes contact with Ernest Rutherford or Leó Szilárd and the Manhattan Project never born. A world without useful atomic energy or Nuclear Bomb, a world without the Person of the Century.  --Fero 04:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

please someone delete NUN (New United nations) we are not in there, now we are in League of nations --Fero 05:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

some ideas

 * the netx edition of world map 1983, push the flag of ANZC betwine Australia and N zeland, in the see, ´cause is hard see the limit australia/australia flags, they are in simil color. that happen with Pais de oro too, the flags orange/brown is hard to see is U push in the country with orange/bronw too. --Fero 00:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don´t now how, but, Madagascar was surviver, that isle have a good lonely loock, not like the frontier wars across all the rest of africa, is a recent idea, just a minute ago.--Fero 00:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i think we must delete the excesives "identical" old images of World map 1983. push "Template:Delete" betwine and administrator will delete them, do it U because u was do that maps, is your desicion --Fero 00:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

World Map, next edition

 * south america, sound more green, not red, they are not soviet, S America, is very jungle, and follow Brasil, and is the colour of our new flag --Fero 00:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * add, "french" flag realy have red line --Fero 00:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * a question mexico country was nuked? and Mexico DC(the city)? --Fero 00:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * add Madagascar(the bigger isle in east of south africa, their speak a little french, but i dont think they get in the french union, her independence in 1969 was violent, they "hate" french. --Fero 00:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Mexico was supposedly not nuked, if there were no secret U.S. plans to avoid Mexico from taking advantage of the destruction... this will need some research. You think in Spanish sources might be something about this?
 * French flag ... the detailed explanation what stands for what part of the R.T.A. still needs some time as it is a bit complicated^^ As my brother (§jurimo§) currently got flags in geography classes in school I will let him work on more flags as he seems to really like it:) Hope this is ok for you...^^ --Xi&#39;Reney 08:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Plus, on at least one version of the map, red means underwater areas. South America isn't underwater!  I will also add: indicate somehow that the northern islands of Hawaii aren't actually part of the Hawaiian state anymore. Benkarnell 01:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The editions I made for northern Europe should be included as well.

--> a lot of interesting points and details... will update the World Map today/tomorrow and include all things mentioned here and in profiles. As you can see for Indonesia there are ideas for


 * A.Regional political maps (Northern Atlantic, Oceania, South East Asia, MSP (U.S. west coast), South America, etc.)


 * B.Recon maps (showing the routes of expeditions, WCRB recon missions (Nimitz, Franklin) and similar)


 * C.Theme maps (wars (Sumatra war 1992)), Transportation & Trade map (NOrth atlantic)

and more ^^ --Xi&#39;Reney 08:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

South America
Very nice flag, fero ! :) Just one question: I think we better move the "South America" to "South American Confederation" (o algo de que tu piensas que esta lo mejor. solo no utiliza CSA) :) to differentiate the organziation from the region! I leave this to WCRB South America ^^ :) Also it seems you speak Brazil/Portugues?

Might you translate "Portugal Intermin Government" in Portugues?


 * what and where is "Portugal Intermin Government" ?--Fero 18:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * this means "Portugal temporary/provisional/ government" gobierno provisionario portugueso ... algo asi en portugues necesito.:) Xi&#39;Reney 19:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

okey i will write S American Association not in South America article and now i wan write a list of Head of State in 1983 afer doomsday, in Doomsday (1983: Doomsday) of course everybody can help, and add a wikipedia hipervincule is good in there --Fero 18:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * thank you... a nice idea the Head of State list!

Great new world map, i think do it in png ever is easy to see in everywhere (svg need a good machine and siome progran... and i was cleam up my pc, y lost some programs). and delete old version is good too. plus i am seeng all the indonesians, is okey--Fero 18:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * thank you ^^ ... think png is really the best to upload. Before this i just forgot to export it from inkscape and so the svg versions were uploaded. --Xi&#39;Reney 19:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Creator...
oh, see you found the unkown creator of this timeline or at least the IP ^^ good idea ben, have not thought about it yet... ^^ thank you --Xi&#39;Reney 16:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * May as well give him (her?) credit. It looks like quite a lot was written before you took over last spring and got the rest of us excited too.  Benkarnell 18:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting topic Ben ^^. For me in general it's ok if we credit to him/her? as it was his unique idea as I dont want to claim this TL for me (how could I?:). I just think that like I described in the Disclaimer on  the Portal Page that a lot of work and new stuff has been made by us since last spring. I would think if we credit the initial Doomsday idea and the Basic timeline as well as the US History especially to him/her would be suitable in order to avoid the whole tl being claimed by someone that cant prove to be the original author. The last activity of the original author was the comment to allow extension and modification see Talk:Timeline (1983: Doomsday) Really a lot of ideas have been inspired from the original timeline and small hints within. This is the way I would think appropriate, but I am open to any suggestions. --Xi&#39;Reney 19:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Question: Corcega, Javanese Empire?
Hey,,,

what country/territory is Corcega and Javanese Empire supposed to be?? :) Thinking of more details to come ? :)--Xi&#39;Reney 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"Head of State before doomsday list" based in | Category:Heads_of_state_by_country-wikipedia
"Head of State before doomsday list" based in | Category:Heads_of_state_by_country-wikipedia I was write the same in Doomsday talk (and that jamaican run realy fast!)--Fero 19:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

What time? in where? hours?
All that is initial seccion of United states article, a the question is time from where? 3:00 washintong or 3:00 moscow?, ¿los angeles, or London or Sidney? is not the same, we need a exactly time, remember the hour of 11/9 in new york, if that was in the night the situation is not the same, what time sistem we gonna used, from where, we must traslate that time to the others points in the world--Fero 03:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

'''Doomsday, Sept. 26, 1983

The fatal decision to launch the nuclear missiles at the United States is given.

Nearly 1100 Soviet ICBMs in staggered waves are on their way.

12:38 pm: NORAD launch detection satellites report the incoming 1100 ICBMs from the Soviet Union.

It is apparently, to them, a Soviet FIRST-strike and President Reagan is immediately awoken and rushed to "Marine-1", to be evacuated to the Boeing E-4B Nightwatch "National Airbone Command Post" permanently standing by. He arrives twenty minutes later and the aircraft takes off at about 1:09am.

En route, the President is informed by Secretary of Defense Weinberger and the NORAD generals that the launch is confirmed and that it was total. Reagan gives the launch codes and orders a full retaliatory strike, including "city-buster" missile attacks from the American submarine fleet.

A minute later the first Soviet missile detonates in Beijing, China and nearly simultaneously  by one at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska.

Doomsday clock strikes

Doomsday. Over a period of two hours, from approximately 1:15am until 3:10am, over three thousand nuclear weapons detonate all across the Northern Hemisphere. NATO commanders are ordered to launch tactical Pershing-I missiles at Soviet tank yards, and Warsaw Pact commanders respond with the launch of their Pioneer missiles.

No American citizen was given much warning of the attack. Some cities did receive alerts and while local mayors and fire chiefs were scrambling to remember where the air-raid siren was, they were either destroyed or missed in the attack.

EMP (electro-magnetic pulses) from airbursted weapons destroy some 70% of the electronics across the United States. Radios, televisions, are rendered useless.

Final death toll on that first day is 1.53 billion people world-wide.

Aftermath - September 1983-March 1984

After a week in the National Airborne Command Post jet, President Reagan is transferred to the still-surviving Mount Weather command bunker. (Oddly, though known to the Soviets for years, no attack on the facility was made.) Vice-President George Bush is relocated to the Greenbrier Hotel facility (this was to have been the Congressional relocation center, but no evacuation of Congress was possible).

Attempts of co-ordination of remaining police, fire, and especially National Guard units in the United States proved only marginally successful. With the widespread death, starvation, and fall-out, few National Guardsmen report for duty. Most couldn't, but many (with no safe zones for their families) refused. Chaos reigned.''' --Fero 03:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC) IS TIME TO ANSWERS


 * Addressed that in latest revision Fero !now the Doomsday is set to 00:40 GMT+3 (Moscow Time). If any suggestions for cnahges, please say :) ^^ --Xi&#39;Reney 16:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Alternative History:Ideas
hi again people, hey, add your ideas in there, that alt histories who are in your imagination but you no have time to write them, let comunity know that, and they gonna adopted, an grow up them --Fero 01:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

TIMELINE VERSION DISCUSSION
Hi, I have revised, restructured and reworked the General Timeline once more(2 hours in Word ^^). Hope it's right and correct now. Slight details might need change of course, will review later. Just please tell me if any problems with viewing it as I got the 34kb size warning ^^:)-Xi&#39;Reney 16:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Greetings from the last WCRB TimelineKeepers session...


 * It's great. It really helps coordinate all the different countries.  I added Hawaii's biofuel plant (1997), the treaty over uninhabited islands (2005), and a note about what's happened in Guam and the Marianas (1995).  Benkarnell 16:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * see Doomsday (1983: Doomsday) to see a list of Doomsday nuked event start time, based in |list of time zone Wikipedia open to help--Fero 17:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Doomsday... Background and General Course Discussion ...
A puzzling question I have :) I am currently digging deeper (i mean really digging) for delivering a bit of background of the exact course of a World War III event like our "Doomsday" on September 26th 1983 and the following days, weeks and month. THis is due to the fact we've been largely focussing on the Current situation of the world 25 yrs after...

So I would like to hear your opinions if the focus (in the next time) should be laid more on the event/pod itself or the current situation??

I am still quite undecided as i have ideas for both but wont be able to spare time for both, especially for the upcoming 25th "Anniversary and the League of Nations ceremony... If you have any suggestions I would be hapy to hear ! --Xi&#39;Reney 15:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I found it easier to start at the POD and work my way forward when I wrote the overall story for Hawaii. By doing it that way, I found some really interesting things that really added depth and color to the story, like the powerful agricultural labor union that controlled all the available food, or the fact that the highest-ranking surviving royal united both of Hawaii's royal family lines.  So I'm all for starting from the beginning and working forward.  At the same time, it will be fun doing the TL in "real time".  I'd say, don't worry to much about regions that haven't been worked on.  For example, we should not feel the pressure to write any news on Madagascar until somebody has really worked out its history, and done it right.  Benkarnell 20:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you Ben for the suggestions. Now i feel much surer when focussing on working on the

POD - near time and backgroung material :) So this will become priority one!! thank you! :)!!--Xi&#39;Reney 21:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Video Simulation, Documentation, Newspapers etc.
Another Subject I am thinkig about (thought it a surprise but dont have any experience in it so oyumight help... (BEN?) I am thinking about a fictional documntary (footage) about the fonudation ceremony on September 26... I have ben browsing youtube & friends for hours this weekend and found a ton of documentaries of nuclear explosions, world war 3 scenarios etc... thinking this is possible but anyone got any suggestions for programs? copyright-free material and so on? Perhaps you guys on Bethisad have some experience in doing this?

!!!Thanks for your help!!!--Xi&#39;Reney 15:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. odd but interesting thing i found is a game called superpower 2.... anyone know more about this, got experience?? ON youtube there are a lot of videos of fictional wars recorded in this game ^^ :) just thinking about something creative  thanks a lot--Xi&#39;Reney 15:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I saw something about an IB movie long ago, but it's gone now. I don't know anything about video, so I couldn't do a project like that.  Sorry :-/  Benkarnell 20:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I played that game but it seemed really complicated and it was hard to really do anything fun because if you declare war on anyone, often even when I'm with a coalition of what would be considered the good guys, suddenly things change and Vietnam and Norway is invading ME while all my forces are busy elsewhere. Then everyone is at war with me and I'm kicked out of all international organisations and the economy collapses.  The military unit customisation part is also so detailed it's hard to cope with.  The best way to get territory seemed to be researching technologies and then selling it in exchange for land.  The economy controls are also sort of confusing because you have to use trial and error to figure out where to set inflation and stuff.  Eeech :[--TEAKAY 17:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Just got me a game called "Supreme Commander 2020"... a bit of course and different two Superpower 2 but it's a damn complicated game with everything in that a country's leader should be confrontated with... Started with Australia/ New Zealand and I start feeling what hard work our dear PM Hawke had back then in the first 1 year after Doomsday....a lot of ideas coming from this...:)--Xi&#39;Reney 21:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Guayana Esequiba
information: Guayana Esequiba territory reclamed for venezuela in OTL / conquest by venezuela for president Luis Herrera Campins in Doomsday TL, is spanish (español) article you can find more information and images, in worldmap 2008 that territory in the west of Esequibo river, primary the northwest of Guyana, i paste that in 1983: Doomsday talk and anothers Disputes territories --Fero 06:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Population
, 16 millons in 1983, australia population 1983 17 millions, without nuclear attack, see that in your work --Fero 06:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mutlilanguage Expansion
Hi...just inserted a hint to the now progressing German version of our DD^^^. That's also the reason why I have been quite quiet the last days as I spent ours working on the German Timeline translation... (!!!9 pages in Word...!!!) As it is now nearly completed I hope its okay to have inserted it here. This is also thought to make a bit Propaganda for the German AH wiki. The English Version remains 100% top priority, it just was a lot of fun writing the TL in German.Also gave me a lot of new ideas and details for the work back here. Hope this is ok for you !@Fero: Espero que esta accetptable que he empezado propagar version alemana... podria ser que empezamons en espanol?= Feel free to post your comment regarding this topic ! --Xi&#39;Reney 21:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC), WCRB EX² HQ
 * Es klingt wie Spaß :). My only second language (good old deutsch) is both poor and slow.  I might like the challenge of putting Hawaii into German... later.  Benkarnell 21:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Timor East and West
i suport a East Timor/portuguese revolution agianst indonesians, but i was see our timeline, word "timor" is just 1 time "2007 Asia/Oceania *East Timor and Vanuatu are fully integrated into the ANZC." really way how? i think we must work in that, in the right way --Fero 07:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In general I would agree to you... and integrating East Timor into ANZC was the easiest way to be honest^^ If you look through the Aceh profile and the Indonesian provincial Map I put the Indonesian government retreating its forces back to the core islands around Java, Sumatra. So it would be very likely East Timor revolting just like Aceh and parts of Borneo/Kalimantan did. I am just puzzling how to adjust the position of the ANZC in this situation. I would suggest - as it is- that Timor puts itself under ANZC protection right after the revolution... Later, after the Franklin Recon Mission (1994 or sth.) reestablished contact to the Portuguese and Brazils the Timoreans could join them :) ... just go ahead if you want and write it :p --Xi&#39;Reney 07:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Demography population 1983
i find a reasonable base/source to do our timeline "realismatter",... wikipedia coommoms demography --Fero 05:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Very good material! Thank you Fero!! Will start integrating as I have time (removal preparations)... :( --Xi&#39;Reney 07:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Need help.
Hi I’m trying to write an article on how Siberia and the Russian Far East survived (although all of its cities destroyed) and became its own country but I need someone to help uploading the flag of Siberia onto this Wiki for me. Every time I try to do it it doesn’t let me. The flag can be found here. Thanks if anyone helps me.--ShutUpNavi 15:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I like that idea! It will be nice to see how things play out in the country that, truthfully, started the whole ATL.  Are you sure, though, that they would choose a flag that was only used for a year in 1918?  Would anybody even remember it?  On the other hand, it is easy to make and has some obvious Siberian symbolism (green forests, white snow).  I can upload the image, but can you share your basic plan for Siberia? Benkarnell 15:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a quick preview of the article right here. I’ll add more to it later. In the mean time feel free to add on to it if you wish. Thanks for the picture by the way.

Oh and although the flag is not totally widespread, it is still used as a symbol of Siberia to this day. --ShutUpNavi 16:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * OK. I like the idea so far.  My one suggestion for a flag would be to add some sort of Communist symbol (a hammer and sickle, etc.) since they are still a Socialist republic.  Benkarnell 16:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

O.K then. How about we put a big red star in the middle of the flag inbetween the green and white?--ShutUpNavi 17:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Or it could be like the flags of Hungary and Bulgaria during the Soviet era: a fairly ordinary flag with the Communist coat of arms.
 * Another question that I have is on the internal effects of the bombs. Exactly what was bombed and what was spared?  I think we can assume that the major industrial centers of Siberia were wiped out; so it would make sense for the main remaining city to be an unimportant port.  But even if the new republic was declared already in 1984, I'd think it would take a _long_ time and a lot of work for it to actually control anything.  Besides the collapse of the infrastructure and the EMP's effects on electronics, there would be radiation poisoning and conflict with survivors who leave the radiation zones seeking food and resources.  At the beginning, could the Republic have consisted of only a small area around Sovetskaya Gavan, which gradually linked up with other surrounding cities?  Benkarnell 16:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I was going to write about the after effects of doomsday on Siberia and how all the leaders tried to rebuild the country through all the fallout and climate change, with disastrous results (think the soviet response to the Chernobyl disaster, only on a much bigger scale). Now that I think of it though 1984 is a bit early for Siberia to start to be its own country, thanks to points you brought up. Might have to change that.--ShutUpNavi 01:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, some leaders could certainly have declared the new nation in 1984. Declaring something, after all, doesn't take much work.  But the process of making the nation a reality could take years or even decades.  Benkarnell 04:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

New Idea.
I have a new idea. I was just thinking of it and since the Middle East was relatively neutral in the cold war the Middle East nations should have survived the nuclear war (although the radioactive fallout might have been bad). I'm thinking about creating pages for these nations, where things turn out very different then OTL thanks to lack of foreign involvement in the wars there (e.g. Iran-Iraq war, Gulf War, Afghan War). I probably won't start on it right away, but would it be O.K if I eventually add this to the timeline?--ShutUpNavi 00:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi ShutUp ! Of course no problem to insert the Middle East ! Another white spot on the world map to be filled!! Just go ahead :) Oh, and dont forget to create your WCRB identity/division etc !! You earned it well with all additions made, thank you for the new ideas to 1983: Doomsday !! --Xi&#39;Reney 04:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)