Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

Scotland was influenced by England for ten years before being vassalized for a further seven. It should now be the colour of England(Red).[http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andr3w777 ALLONS-Y! ] (Basically, RUN!) 03:17, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The Coulnty of Flanders (not including Artois) needs to be added Brabant-Hainaut-Holland lands. Nkbeeching (talk) 15:35, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Bah Everything east of OTL french border with belgium, the flanders county territories within the french borders remain mine! Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

Ragusa is my vassal but on the current map its grey and on top of that My conquests in Morocco need to be added. Kunarian TALK 06:35, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Also, I concluded a deal with the Ottomans this turn regarding the area around the Black Sheep Turks. The burnt-orange area at right has been transferred from Ottoman control to mine. Not sure what I'm going to do regarding internal organization, so just leave it separate from my other regions for now. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Riga's been absorbed by Prussia, and Courland has been vassalized by Prussia.--Yank 23:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

As Bengal, Aohm/Ahom and Koch have been my vassals for a few turns, Arakan and Garjat were integrated into my nation, and I've expanded about 2000km into the Andaman Islands. Also, when someone put Orissa as my vassal, they removed the nation they conquered in the 1410s, and made them pre-1410 size. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 23:57, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Once again, Siberian expansion is not present. I believe I've expanded for enough to reach the sea by now. Fed (talk) 23:58, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been able to edit a lot lately, but I've noticed two things. First, the Aztecs are expanding exponentially, while my nation (Zapotec) has remained at a standstill. The other is more of an inquiry. How are these small tribes (Colorado, Cahokian) developing into such large nations so quickly, and plausibly? Their size on the map alone is astounding. Cour *talk* 20:16, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

My colony in Azores, that as of 1440 includes the islands of Santa Maria and São Miguel is missing.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:51, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
As Rex is out and the religious schisms seem to be heating up, I went ahead and updated the religious map to reflect the 1435 political boundaries. All colors reflect the region's majority religion to the best of my knowledge. TankOfMidgets (talk) 06:53, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

It's good, but Oldenburg isn't Protestant, although I can understand why you'd think it is. Sedevacantism is just Catholicism which doesn't recognise any of the current papal claimants as legitimate popes. Other than that, it is the exact same as Catholicism. Callumthered (talk)

You also colored a bunch of states protestant that are Catholic in the lowlands. For example you colored Cologne, which in reality is so Catholic it's run by an archbishop. Not to mention it is an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. Mscoree (talk) 14:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Also why are a bunch of nations in Swabia colored different? Mscoree (talk) 14:07, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I can basically sum up these issues as "I was working off the 1427 map." I've gone back and post-scanned, and the map has been adjusted accordingly. Reformism is now limited to only Brabant-Holland-Hainaut; Oldenburg and Osnabruck are now shown as Sedevacantist (marked as a sub-branch of Catholicism), and Bavaria and its vassals are now correctly displayed as Catholic (since the Bavarian player hasn't yet announced his conversion in-post). TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:37, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in gold, and Sedevacantist states are shown in pale yellow. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Protestantism is red; I will add more sub-shades if more *Protestant sects arise. Sunni Islam is lime green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green. Hinduism is sky blue, while Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink.

Notes
 * Nations whose churches function autonomously but that otherwise hold similar beliefs have been lumped together under their "mother" church for ease of reference. For those curious why all the Orthodox states are orange even though they're administratively independent, or why France is listed as Catholic even though they're busy autonomizing the French Catholic Church, now you know.
 * I've only marked nations as "Western Church" if I found that their players officially stated their states' conversions in-game. This list includes England, Castille, Prussia, Munster, and Bavaria. I couldn't find a UNC response to the Western Church's conversion request, so the UNC is listed as Catholic.
 * Hinduism got a color change because I had a very hard time distinguishing Hindu military-green and Islamic lime-green on the map. On a related note: if you're a South/Southeast Asian nation, do me a favor and make sure I've listed your religion right; I made my best guesses, but I may be wrong.
 * If you're playing any of the "Native American" civilizations: I got to your religions last, which means you drew pink as your color. If you don't like it, I sincerely apologize. I also apologize for lumping your nations together as "pagan" nations - feel free to post the names of your religions in place of the "X region pantheon" descriptors.
 * Yes, China is listed as "Confucian," which is my catch-all term for the spiritual medley that is Chinese liturgical tradition. Japan is likewise "Shinto" even though it should probably technically be Shinto-Buddhist. It's easier to refer to them this way.
 * Oman is Ibadi, not Sunni, and has been for centuries; I've noted this because it's functionally a separate sect from the Sunni tradition, unlike the other non-Shia Islamic jurisprudence schools. Also, I don't see a single Shia state in existence at this point in time, so I don't yet have a Shia category.
 * Oriental Orthodoxy is a catch-all for the various "non-Chaledonian" churches: the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, the Nestorians, etc. Armenia was Oriental Orthodox, but was reconciled to standard Orthodoxy at the Council of Batumi, so it's listed as regular Orthodox. The Oyo Orthodox Church is also listed as standard Orthodox, since it (presumably) hasn't yet had time to go "heretic."
 * The Phillippines don't match any of the other religions on the map. This is because I couldn't figure out what they were, and didn't want to list them under another heading, so they're a different shade of blue from all the other Buddhist states. Related note: someone convert them so I can color them properly.
 * i made 1427 and i'll remake 1435   Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

=General Discussion=

Yemen (Attacker)

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage : 1
 * Nations: Yemen (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 14/14=1
 * Economy: 10/10=1
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 777
 * UTC time: 12:40=8
 * Chance: 777/7*pi=305.127186
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: 3
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 7
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * 30*1.25=37.5

Mamluk Sultanate (Defender)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage : 5
 * Nations: Mamluks (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 14/14=1 
 * Economy: 10/10=1+5=6
 * Infrastructure: 6
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 3969
 * UTC time: 12:40=8
 * Chance: 3969/7*pi = = 1558.62266
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 8 (Defend) + 4 (Sipported Gov) +5 (High Morale) = 17
 * Age: 5
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 8+10 = 18
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * 87*1.25=108.75

Results
If results stand, the defending Mamlukean army can overthrow the Yemeni government in 2 years. (I have yet to decide what to do with Will. I may just repulse the attack and not carry on.)
 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((137.5/(37.5+137.5))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.5714*(1-1/(2(2))
 * 0.4286

Discussion
Yeah for the sake of not killing people off and the sanity of the middle east not becomming the way the HRE and central europe was, you maintained your honor, you drove them off, i dont see any reason to carry on really.

Yes I agree with Feudal.

01:42, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Can I switch my nation to Cyprus
Oct is threatening mp about killing his nation and stuff and it is getting stupid and annoying. If I can switch my nation to Cyprus then I can stop this and oct can get banned out of the game. - Shadow

What in hell are you trying to say? Oct is trying to kill MP's nation so you want to switch to Cyprus so that Oct will be banned? How does that sequence of event even occur?

17:50, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I believe Genoa was conquered, Oct is playing as a government in exile in Cyprus at the moment, and now he wants to switch to Cyprus itself. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Oct is to implausable and wants to take out mp who is a very good map game player. So by me switching my nation I can kick oct of getting the nation he wants. - Shadow

That's umm, no, that's not fair to Oct. Also, you already have a nation.

20:54, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I want to switch my nation. - Shadow

Nooooooooooo. I keep telling you this.

23:08, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Wow shadow spreading rumors to switch nations, if I was LG I would be like "Two Weeks to think about it". Than ban you. OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Florence

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Florence (L), Siena (LV), Pisa (LV), Modena (LV), Sovana (MV), Roman Empire (L), Naples (L), Swiss Con (L) = 28/19= 1
 * Military: 78/50= 1
 * Florence: 14
 * Siena: 10
 * Pisa: 8
 * Modena: 4
 * Sovana: 0
 * Roman Empire:14
 * Naples:14
 * Swiss con: 14
 * Total: 78
 * Economy: 78/52= 1
 * Florence: 14
 * Siena: 10
 * Pisa: 8
 * Modena: 4
 * Sovana: 0
 * Roman Empire:14
 * Naples:14
 * Swiss Con: 14
 * Total: 78
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: (Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed): + 7 x 8= 56
 * Chance: (2931/15)*pi= 613.8 6 2= 6
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Wars: 0
 * Vassals/Puppets: -4
 * Result: 102

Savoy

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Savoy (L) Piombino (MV) Dodecanese (MV) Provence (L) Anjou (MV), Avignon (S) = 16/24= 0
 * Military: 50/64= 0
 * Savoy: 10
 * Piombino: 8
 * Dodecanese: 4
 * Provence: 14
 * Anjou: 14
 * Avignon: 0
 * Total: 50
 * Economy: 52/64= 0
 * Savoy: 12
 * Piombino: 8
 * Dodecanese: 4
 * Provence: 14
 * Anjou: 14
 * Avignon: 0
 * Total: 52
 * Expansion: -1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack) 9 + (aiding ally) 5 = 14
 * Chance:(53/15)*pi= 11.099966 = 9
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals: -3
 * Result: 65

Results

 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((102/(65+102))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.22155*(1-1/(2(2))
 * 0.165 = 16.5% = 16.5%

Discussion
Corrected the algorythm.Just because you can say you update military and economy in a same turn, does not mean that both will be counted in the algorythm.either one counts or the other.The motive was also done wrong.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:24, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Algo needs to be updated following the entry of the Swiss into the war. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 19:35, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

add me in too. Spartian300 (talk) 20:42, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, since the war appears to be concluded, unless others join in, let us now begin the treaty provisions of the war. Any objections? "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:12, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Fine by me Quashi (talk) 23:25, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Roman Proposal: Other proposals will be considered. If this is too harsh (and I know it can be), let me know proposed changes.
 * Savoy shall yield the Duchy of the Dodecanese to the Roman Empire.
 * Savoy shall yield the Duchy of Piombino to Naples.
 * Savoy shall cease any and all claims on Cyprus or Montferrat, and also Savoyard influence shall not pass into Greece or the Eastern Med.
 * Savoy will not imped Neapolitan diplomats or donations to other nations, save for those that enter Savoyard territory.
 * Savoy will turn over its trade fleet to Naples, its military fleet to the Roman Empire.
 * Savoy will turn over Swiss land to the Confederacy.
 * Florence will receive reparations for damages in the war. Small amounts of territory can also be ceded to Florence, in a way that Florence and Savoy can jointly decide.
 * There will be a 15 year truce between all signers of this treaty.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:54, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I feel like I got ripped off bit time in my own war. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 00:47, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I hate to point out this fact, Crimson, but our victory was not total, and without our help, you would have lost. If you want, I can transfer their naval fleet to you, unless Naples objects. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * The algorithm had been botched. I would have won. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 05:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all Quashi (talk) 00:19, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

None of his vassals would technically be leaders unless he stated that they were leaders in the game. This point was made very clear last game. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 01:06, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I will accept the Roman proposal if all of you give me a 15 years truce. --Zengu (talk) 04:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, knew I was forgetting something. That was part of it. Done deal then. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 05:02, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Done Quashi (talk) 05:10, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Naples

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Naples (L), Genoa (LV), Corsica (LV), Mantua (LV), Ferrara (LV), Zeta (LV) = 19/4 = 4.75 = 5
 * Military: 74/12= 6
 * Naples: 14
 * Genoa: 10
 * Corsica: 10
 * Mantua: 14
 * Ferrara: 14
 * Zeta: 12
 * Total: 74
 * Economy: 74/12= 6
 * Naples: 14
 * Genoa: 10
 * Corsica: 10
 * Mantua: 14
 * Ferrara: 14
 * Zeta: 12
 * Total: 74
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: (Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed): + 7 x 5 +  (troop morale) 5 x 5= 35 + 25 = 60
 * Chance: (392/64)*pi=19.241 = 4
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Wars: -1
 * Vassals/Puppets: -5
 * Result: 117

Rome

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Rome (L) 4/19 = 0
 * Military: 12/74= 0
 * Economy: 12/74= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack) 9 (troops morale) - 10 = -1
 * Chance:(428/64)*pi=21.008 = 0
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals: 0
 * Result: 35

Results

 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((117/(35+117))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.769736*(1-1/(2(1))
 * 0.38 = 38%

Discussion
After 1 year of war, the Pope is held in the Vatican City and forced to abdicate his position. Thus begins the search for a new Pope who is at the level of the post, and to bring all believers to a new church. Quashi (talk) 22:01, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

With the pope(s) deposed, I hope that we can meet at the Council of Constance and elect a sole one. Mscoree (talk) 22:06, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly Quashi (talk) 22:16, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

You're forgetting the vassals of the Papal States, who will undoubtedly help their master. CrimsonAssassin - I have special eyes 00:37, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

This seems flawed to me. Also, ShadowKnight is Naples right? I think he is doing this cause he hates me.Spartian300 (talk) 08:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

No, the last turn he annex all his vassals, so is only Rome Quashi (talk) 00:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Solution to the Russian Question.
Why you Don't Bring a Razor to a Guns Fight

Russia (Attacker)
Total: 39*1.25 ~ 48.75 ~ 49
 * Location: 15
 * Muscovy: 10
 * Novgorod: 20
 * Tver: 10
 * Pskov: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker)
 * Nations: Muscovy (L) Novgorod (L), Tver (L), Pskov (L), Ukraine (MV), Pereslavl-Ryazanski (MV) = 20 + 4/6, 20.66/7 ~ 2.9 ~ 3
 * Military Development: 36/14 ~ 2.5 ~ 3
 * Muscovy: 11
 * Novgorod: 13
 * Pskov: 6
 * Tver: 6
 * Economic Development: 40/14 ~  2.8 ~ 3
 * Muscovy: 8
 * Novgorod: 10
 * Pskov: 14
 * Tver: 8
 * Expansion: -8
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 11 (Econ, Support, morale)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count: 453
 * UTC: 11:13= 6
 * Total: 453/6*(3.14159265359) = 237.190245346
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Muscovy: Maturing, 0
 * Novgorod: Maturing, 0
 * Pskov: 0
 * Tver: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Moscovy: -4
 * Novgorod: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: 41-2 (Ukraine, Ryazan)*1.25

Golden Horde (Previously UNC) (Defender)
Total: 62
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (capital)
 * Nations: UNC (LW), Golden Horde (L), Schleswig (MVW) Holstein (MVW)  Perm (MV) Bremen (MVW) Lubeck (MVW) = 7 + 0
 * Military Development: 14, 0
 * G-H: 14
 * Economic Development: 14, 0
 * G-H: 14
 * Expansion: -6
 * Infrastructure: 8
 * Motive: 8 (Defending heartland)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 6804
 * UTC: 11:13 = 6
 * Total: 6804/6*(3.14159265359) = 3562.56606917
 * Nation Age: 5
 * G-H: 5 (mature)
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1 (Great Perm)

Result
((62/(49+62))*2)-1 = 0.11711711711

(0.11711711711)*(1-1/(2(6)) = 0.10735735735

Discussion
The UNC will take 15% of Novgorod, including the city itself.

The G-H will take 5% of Muscovy.

PEACE I'M OUT I'M GUNS

23:23, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

No. Guns, you can't just decide unileteraly that you dont like that Russia is fighthing against you and you are now loosing, so you decide to delete them and post them on another algorithm. THat is not how life works. be of going away now, you are not fighting with the golden horde, they are fighting their own war, not yours, you have nothing to do with the G-H, and you cannot just remove them from the algorithm because you want to win. This is very infantile behavior-Lx (leave me a message) 23:55, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

It was actually decided by the moderators that there would be different algorithms for each region, sort of like different theatres of battles, for plausibility reasons. They are all basically part of the same war, just divided into certain areas. I will work to fix this algorithm. Mscoree (talk) 04:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * And we will also let Guns edit. Only to keep it fair. :) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course. Mscoree (talk) 14:43, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Added all my vassals. Sorry, forgot to yesterday.
 * Anyway, still a victory. By quite a margin. May I enquire how the fuck Tver is leading in this war?
 * 18:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * You guys do realize that by doing this you are esentialy giving Guns an advantage because it is like he is not fighting two fronts, and that one has NO impact WHATSOEVER on the other?-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 20:07, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

So nope. So utterly nope.

Anyway, things to fix: Since 2 nations are on the UNC side, the maximum ammount of Development turns counted should be 30(the total should add to 30), there are 13 and 9 in military and economic, that adds to 22 turns...another 8 for saami expansion...that gets to 30...the maximum...and then you add 7 for infrastructure bringing the total over the limit to 37...Also, we should define "heartland" as I do not believe that Finland, into which Russia is invading the UNC, does not seem like a "heartland". Anyway, pskov was de-facto independant since 1328 anbd even when moscow appointed their Namestnik for like what, one year, the veche still held power, the namestnik was simply the veche did not chose the prince, no real change in the legislative capacity...anyway if that counts as recent change of gov. pskov gets +5, also, why does muscovy and novgorod have odd score is military or economic... since those each turn gives you 2...same with the G-H and UNC scores, they are odd numbers...anyway, TL:DR odd numbers need to be fixed, UNC side development scores need to be fixed(either remove infrastructure or fix the military/economic) and the question: Since there was minimal governement change(in terms of legislative body, the onily change is how the comparatively weak Head of State is chosen) since pskov's de facto independance from Novgorod was in 1328, does 1328(instead of the treaty that formaly recognized and granted Pskov de jure aswell as de facto indpependance in 1348?) count as "Governement change" therefore granting pskov a +5 in age.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:14, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I have just found out today that I'm still in the war with the Golden Horde in this algo. However, I have also noticed that the UNC has collapsed and is in a civil war (Denmark and Norway vs Sweden). Due to their domestic issues, should the UNC be taken out of the algo? I am only asking moderators and players not affiliated in the war due to keep out bias opinions. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Yea for the sake of it all the UNC did collapse and there really isnt any way for them to continue a war as i bet the unified army started killing eachother or would be more worried about going home to their respective countries. Just my two cents but seriously most nations pull out of wars when the collapse.. IE Russian empire in WW1

I agree. The UNC is dead.--Yank 02:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

That is how coalition algos work, apparently.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 02:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

These are my calculations, correct me if I'm wrong. Fed (talk) 03:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

so what does any of this actualy mean? and does Russia get to take UNC/Swedish/Danish/Norwegian territory, considering that Russia started fighting them in the first place?-Lx (leave me a message) 04:44, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kono confussion
The daimyo of Kono dies, and his daughter, who is married to the Hosokawa ruler, is forced to give her lands to her husband, merging the two Daimyos under the Hosokawa.

This is what the mod event states, yet Kono is a vassal according to the nations list.

Kono (Vassal of Hosokawa)

I'm not sure if this is correct, maybe I'm wrong. But I think I'm literally controlling Kono, why can't I integrate into my daimyo?

Don't forget to sign your posts.

Normally, it would take ten turns for a vassal to merge with its liege nation. If this is in fact what the mod event says, and the Kono Daimyo has no heirs, then I guess it wouldn't be too far fetched of an idea.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 15:25, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ulster (Attacker)
Total: 46.25
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Ulster (L), Munster (S), England (S) Wales (S) =
 * Military Development: 15/5=3
 * Economic Development: 15/5=3
 * Expansion: -10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5
 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 1440
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +5, +2 = 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 37*1.25

Breifne (Defender)
Total: 37.5
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Breifne (L) = 4, 0
 * Military Development: +5. 0
 * Economic Development: +5,0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: +
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 30*1.25

Result

 * ((71/(125))*2)-1 = 0.136
 * (13.6)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 6.8

Discussion
Probably wrong. Can someone fix it?

We are all union members so wales, England and Desmond should be thereBowties are Cool (talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Munster (Attacker)
Total: 111
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Munster (L), Ulster (S), England (S) = 8
 * Military Development: +8
 * Economic Development: +18
 * Expansion: +0
 * Infrastructure: +1
 * Motive: Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5, Economic +3
 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Troop Morale High + 5
 * Results=17
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 960
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=18 (10:36 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 167.5 5 1608191
 * Chance= +5
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +5, +2 = 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Thomond (Defender)
Total: 85
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (Capital in Central Region)
 * Nations: Thomond (L) = 4
 * Military Development: +8
 * Economic Development: +10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +5
 * Motive: +9 (Defending heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Non-Dem government supported by people +4
 * Troop Morale low -5
 * Total: +8
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 960
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=18 (10:36 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 167.55 1 608191
 * Chance= 1
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result
((111/(85+111))*2)-1=0.13265306122

(0.13265306122)*(1-1/(2*4))

0.11607142856

Discussion
Finished! Finally! Need a mod to review it. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

MS is killing PM3
Thanks to the delusions of grandeur from one MScoree PM3 is going the way of the dodo quicker than PM2, proving that the worst enemy to map games is a corrupt mod.
 * 1) He clearly uses his position as a mod and player to galvanise his nations grip on the HRE and is doing ASB things to try and ensure it is his own little kingdom to rule.
 * 2) He is manipulating algorithms and is making the war with the UNC and its allies and their allies (that's where I come in) biased in his favour all because he is terrified of losing. The whole splitting up the algorithm defeats the point of coalition wars and is coming across (whether it originally was intended or not) as a way for MS to have the HRE fight with their full power three different groups of opponents.
 * 3) He is deliberately manipulating people, telling people lies and making promises he can't keep and is even threatening people. I've been told he has threatened new players such as the player of the Swiss Confederacy.

He has even stooped so low as to force a unification event on the player of Bayern-Landshut (who didn't want nor agree to it but now clearly feel stuck), which is completely ASB, to weaken the UNC side in the coalition war.

All these three things are harming the game. They are harming what should be a map game with minimal conflict, they are harming the community of the map game and just making people argue and they are harming the reputation of moderation concerning the map game. Of course some people are going to have a breakdown over certain things that happen but what is currently happening is threatening to kill PM3 in its crib or severely cripple it into the future.

MS must be removed as a mod. Final. End of.

Giving him a chance has already been done and he has continued to abuse powers.

If there are any mods out there I suggest you deal with this before it really does implode. Kunarian TALK 17:49, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

This very turn we just had a moderator event that weakened the Holy Roman Empire. I'm not terrified of losing, in fact it is clear that we did not win the algorithm and I am fine with that. The splitting up the algorithm was Fed's idea, and agreed upon by several moderators and a bunch of other people. It is done for plausibility since in the early 1400's it makes no sense to have a giant multi-alliance coalition war. Venice has no relations with Scandinavia, except that they are co-belligerents, and so on. It should also be noted that me or the HRE is not even in all of the algorithms, so it' not like we're just dividing one side, but rather we are dividing everyone into a specific theatre of war. Whether or not I'm manipulating people in game is kind of irrelevant since in-game kings and rulers will manipulate eachother. It's not like people didn't threaten each other in real life. Also Switzerland and I are allies who are working together, and Dae isn't exactly new here. I didn't write the unification event for Bavaria, Dean did, who has no interest in this area. I was actually the one who contested all of those events and questioned their plausibility. I hope that helped to clear some things up. Mscoree (talk) 18:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that MS, you are not the one to do such things. And justifying being destructive to the game by saying "in-game kings and rulers will manipulate eachother". IN GAME IS VERY DIFFERENT TO OUT OF GAME. Concerning my war that I am part of with Bavaria and the UNC. How come Bavaria can fight a war in the north but I can't? How come Bavaria called me into the war but I have to fight a separate front? Kunarian TALK 18:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was in the mod page when the event about Bavaria was created.Mscoree wasn't even there when it happened.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:31, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe you are in two wars currently. Mscoree (talk) 18:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. I am in one, you are trying to manipulate things to be your way however. Kunarian TALK 19:40, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Splitting up the algo helped us, in a way.

But we won both regardless. 16% in the HRE, undisputed, and 14% in Russia, not yet confirmed.

18:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

All the things you mentioned tend to help you more than they help ms. Tr0llis (talk) 18:17, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

For

 * Cour *talk* PMII_Mayan_Flag.pngCaborr_Flag.png 20:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC) Sorry to do this, but it is a constant issue. We can't afford to have this kind of leadership in the game.
 * Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 21:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC) Ms is a hell of a guy and I want him on the mod team. I really do. However, the amount of times this has come into question makes me believe that he may not necessarily be the right choice at this time. In my opinion, these mod votes should have been based on unanimous decision anyway.
 * Fed (talk) 14:14, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * ~Scraw (Ms, removing votes is cheating, stop)

Against
05:22, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sims -The Rainbow Machete Piq 28524 400x400.png
 * Scandinator (talk) 05:37, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 17:28, February 22, 2014 (UTC) Make it stop, for the love of god. End the damn feuds.

Abstain
(Meaning you forefit your right to vote)

Discussion
Scraw, you are not a mod, as it states, you are ONLY A MAPMAKER, therefor you may and cannot vote in the mod section of this impeachment. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Crim, you voted twice.i had to remove one of the duplicates.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. Signed name after the commentary by accident. Thanks for catching that. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 13:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Against

 * this is stupid, are you guys that disappointed that you're not world empires?
 * NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 20:41, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Razor (talk) 20:42, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tr0llis (talk) 20:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Teh Squirrel (talk) 21:11, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Millgy (talk) 21:22, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mapd00d (talk) 21:31, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * SwankyJ (talk) 00:17, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Abstain?

 * 06:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Voting is too mainstream.
 * Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog) I never wanted ms as mod, and all the controversy has been constant from the start, but there is no point voting, as the Msgang dominates. Also, what Rex said.

Discuss
For all the reasons I listed above, plus every other one on this page including practically forcing guns to leave. Kunarian TALK 20:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Who is forcing Guns to do anything? You guys are just showing that you people have a vendetta.

Guns beat me in a war, therefore I am forcing him to leave? Mscoree (talk) 20:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware that player votes had value in these mod impeachments. Either way, I abstain.

Ms, you would not be banned from the game.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 20:21, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Player votes don't count, we just want to see what the general populace thinks. Cour *talk* 20:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Is he being impeached because you're mad at him? You realize how childish that sounds, right? NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Considering this is the third time this issue has come up, it's not just one person. Ms is very polarizing, and it's causing chaos. Cour *talk* 20:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Does Euc even play the game?

20:42, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

If he isn't, then he can't vote. Cour *talk* 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I play as the Electorate of Trier. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Would like to point out that only the Ms gang is opposed to his impeachering..

20:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

At Cour, honestly certain people just hate ms personally. As long as he is a mod, people who dislike him will find reasons to complain, but so far every single one has been resolved. Tr0llis (talk) 20:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

^ Totally untrue. Nothing has been resolved.

20:53, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * What issue do you have? I'd be happy to resolve it. Mscoree (talk) 20:56, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that every time some one votes similarly to ms and friends the "ms crew" apparently grows. Tr0llis (talk) 20:55, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

It's a coincidence how the entire "Ms crew" voted against impeachment within half an hour of it being posted. Cour *talk* 20:56, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

It's a coincidence that everyone so far against MS voted within a half an hour too. Tr0llis (talk) 20:58, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Because they were, I don't know, on chat at the time? Besides, Ms magically has internet connection back.

20:59, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I just restarted my router and am able to reconnect again. Earlier I was having trouble loading the site.I am not sure about ms but he might be having similar issues. Tr0llis (talk) 21:01, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I thought Ms was the one having connection problems.Cour *talk* 21:02, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

You just added that last part, distinguishing between you and Ms. What's going on? Cour *talk* 21:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I believe more than one person can have internet connectivity problems. Mscoree (talk) 21:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

That's not untrue, but I find it interesting that Euc, speaking as if he were you, had internet problems right after you had them, and then Trollis magically had them while confusing himself with you.

Also, who in hell is Teh Squirrel?

21:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

He's a new user who joined on the 11th. No connection that I see. Cour *talk* 21:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Things are not looking good.While Kunarian seems to have a personal feud against Ms for some reason, Ms's actions continue instigating controversy, which seems to lead to those feuds, and there is also the sockpuppet issue.i'm not saying that you guys are sockpuppets, but you are acting very suspiciously.The only thing you guys did right now was to reiterate things that Ms has already said, or would say, or try to answer to the suspicions.Nothing was proved last time, but, seriously, you are just attracting suspicion to yourselves and Mscoree by now, notwithstanding the fact that four of you five play as electors of the HRE and you four voted for Austria last election.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:39, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, this is insulting. You think I'm a sock puppet of Ms? Do you realize how incredibly ridiculous that sounds?
 * Who said i was talking about you?And i don't remember saying that i think you (Non Euclidean and the last four) are sockpuppets.i'm saying that in light of Mscoree's past accusations of having sockpuppets, you five act in a way that attracts suspicion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Most of the other players have ignored this section or declined to vote at this point, but the overwhelming majority of those who have voted against. Now why is that? Cour *talk* 22:03, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to note that all those nations voted for my ruler in OTL. Also we're in a skype call right now, as Local, NK, and Crim can vouch for. Mscoree (talk) 22:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

And in any case, those votes don't count. The score is currently 2-0 in favor of impeachment.

22:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need an abstain section, since not voting is basically abstaining. Mscoree (talk) 23:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference. If you vote to abstain, we can have some form of closure, instead of just blatantly not voting. Cour *talk* 23:55, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

The majority of the mod events in the HRE have been done by mods with no connection to it (aka moi). Ms Has done few, if any of the events. In addition he is absolutely correct with the split algorithms, the two fronts are a world away at the time and thus support to one would take months or years from the other. I'm voting against impeachment since Ms contributes heavily on the mod page in discussion and general organisation. Scandinator (talk) 05:37, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

With the insight from Scand, I vote, as a non-mod, who doesn't count for anything, to abstain. I can see both sides of the issue with equal clarity. Ms is definitely alienating me, and I think, people like me who used to be happy to associate with him, by his newfound association with players under 200 edits who claim to be IRL friends. I am curious - does Ms have any of your accounts' passwords?

I also think Ms is a constant source of controversy and that a great deal of this could be avoided should Ms be relegated to just an important nation. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: Important Players should not be Important Mods. A great example of this would be Collie, who is (almost) always neutral. Another would be Scand, who, while controlling powerful states, is unbiased in most all situations. These are players who have moved beyond conquest. Ms wants to unite the HRE, which is an admirable goal, but would place a great deal of possible God-Modding (which NotLAH was infamous for, in the later years) in his hands.

Now, with all that being said, I am abstaining not because I think Ms should remain as a mod, but because I lack all information. Being a regular player w/o access to the mod page, I cannot comment on the level of activity Ms has put forward to make the game better. I can only imagine he has worked hours to better the game in just the first two or so weeks. As a result of an innate respect for most authority, and a lack of complete understanding, which Scand brought up, I hereby abstain. I would urge all non-mod players to do the same, seeing as we lack all vital knowledge which could make a difference. 06:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, the Player Vote is meaningless, right? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)
 * Yes. Kunarian TALK 23:03, February 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * At this point, I would like to state that this impeachment has failed, as it has only garnered a 60% majority, not the 66.6% supermajority required by the rules.\
 * 23:24, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Never the less, the point is made clear. MS MUST be clear and transparent in his actions as mod and should directly avoid further mishaps by large margins. Otherwise I do not think next time he shall have such a close shave. Kunarian TALK 23:31, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * So can we close this vote for good then? Mscoree (talk) 15:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not over until this is resolved Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Can I point out that the vote is not even close to being over. Most of the Mods have not voted, they either need to vote, or abstain, I think. Also, why does it need a supermajority? A majority of the voting Mods are against him. Shouldn't that be enough? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

We have already had the Scraw discussion, further down the page. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Ms and his total Bull
I'm done. I can't deal with his metagaming anymore. Fuck him, and fuck this game. As Oscar Wilde said, either he goes or I do.

19:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Guns we still have 600 years to go. Plenty of time to achieve greatness. Maybe you didn't collapse all of Germany yet, but you still have plenty of time to do so. You don't have to conquer the whole world in a day. You won the war, and be happy about that. Mscoree (talk) 20:11, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, could you please stop acting like you had nothing to do with this? It's not that he won; it's how he won, and tbh, you kind of screwed around a bit,

20:13, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

A bit, my a$$. You're worse than the Caliphate. In 15 days you did what it took the combined efforts of the entire Caliphate over 100.

20:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, it's not your fault. Let me put it this way.

All this game has caused is never-ending arguments that make this wiki a nightmare, for me at least.

And since I'm the one who always calls your bullshit, I'm the one who gets flagged as "Anti-Ms", I get flagged as an a$$hole, and I don't want that. Nor do I want to be involved in continual arguments. I use this wiki as a place to relax is free time; having a screaming match with you is not my idea of relaxing.

If I stay here, I will end up calling your BS, so fuck this. I'm done. I'm out of the game and I don't want to argue with you or anyone else over this.

Call me selfish, call me childish, I don't care. I'm done with you, and I'm done with this fucking map game.

20:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I'm the caliphate, given I haven't expanded at all through war (with algorithms) at all. Also I'm the one who can't even go on chat with out having to deal with all caps yelling cursing at me. If you don't want to be flagged as "Anti-MS" then don't make things like this section where you literally say "Fuck him" and " either he goes or I do". Why can't we just end the war. Relax man. (MS asked me to post that) NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:38, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why is Ms speak though Euc?

20:40, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to add the thing at the end. MS is apparently having connection problems and asked me to post for him. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Mm.

20:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, I think we have already proved that they are not sockpuppets. maybe NE left his account logged in on a computer and Ms edited it? Or maybe NE was telling the truth? Now is not the time for insinuations, methinks.

BYE BYE GUNS, GTFO! Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:26, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

And here we see a shining example of the species known as Optmius maximus modimus or Mod the Best and Greatest.

05:31, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Oh do shut up. This is more of a Guns vs Dean issue, not one which concerns mod powers, just as you and I dont get along. Personally i think you are both so up in your own little egos that you cant stand to lose, no matter if in real life or in a petty little map game such as this. If PM3 dies, its becasue of the likes of you. Sims -The Rainbow Machete  05:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Going to warn you once guys - cut the behavior out. Lordganon (talk) 05:50, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Cr*p, I didn't see this. I'm done then. Last comment at the end of this page was posed when I didn't see this. I'll leave it there for reference.

05:52, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dean, you are not helping. Furthermore, I would like to take a chance to defend Scraw. He lost his nation in PM2, and what did he do? He rebuilt. That is more than what I can say about you, after losing your Turkish state. (Ironically, both of you betrayed me, and then were betrayed within 2 weeks). Anyhow, Guns won the war, but was forced into a massive loss via the Treaty of Danzig.

Calling either of them poor losers is not only a personal attack, but also untrue. 06:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Guns won the war by 1% then agreed to a treaty that was basically white peace, as written by Bavaria (who is on his side), then quit before he had a chance to debate it. I too was destroyed in PM2, at the time a small Atlantic city state of a thousand people, and by Collie of all people. Mscoree (talk) 13:28, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I can't recall you playing in PMII.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I played twice. Once as the island nation of Cape Vert that you conquered, and a second time as Nouvelle France. Mscoree (talk) 22:49, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Roman-Neapolitan Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 75*1.25 = 93.75 = 94
 * Location: (15+20)/2=17
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Roman Empire (L), Naples (L) = 8/4= 2 <this should be 4 and shouldn't there be vassals?
 * Military Development: 24/10= 2
 * Roman Empire: 12
 * Naples:12
 * Economic Development: 22/10= 2 <shouldn't this be 28/10 and therefore 3? you round up
 * Roman Empire: 14
 * Naples: 14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Political Hegemony) +7 (Morale) +5 (Supp Gov) +4 (Aiding Ally) +5 (Morale) +5 (Supp Gov) +4 = 30/2 = 15 <you don't divide the motive by the other side either this should be an average of the motives of the Roman Empire and Naples
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 6128
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=15 (0:35 UTC)
 * 6128/15*PI= 1282.7 9 46666
 * Chance= 9
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 7 + 10 = 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -7
 * Naples: -2 (Morocco), -2 (Genoa), -1 (Savoy), -1 (Rome) = -6
 * Byzantium: -1 (Savoy) = -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Cyprus (Defender)
Total: 81*1.25 = 101.25 = 101
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 4 (Capital in Central Region, High Ground)
 * Nations: Cyprus (L) = 4/8=0 <this should be 4
 * Military Development: 10/30=0
 * Economic Development: 10/30=0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive:
 * 9 (Defending heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Non-Dem government supported by people +4
 * Troop Morale High +5
 * Total: 18
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 2,206
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=15 (0:35 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 461.7 8 933333
 * Chance= 8
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6 This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:51, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so a few things need to be changed. I've gone ahead and made the following changes. Thanks, 00:48, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Defender Tact. Adv. - Need to add 2 for High Ground, Nicosia is on the large Cypriot plateau, and has a high elevation. They are also a freaking island, so you are going from 0m to 220m high in a steep march.
 * Defender Mil/Econ/Infra. Dev. - Since Cyprus was a NPC prior to Oct's take over, they get the NPC development bonuses until the first turn Oct played as them (1414).
 * Attacker's Infrastructure - It sounds funny saying that; only defenders get infrastructure.
 * Defender's Motive - They have higher scores in Infrastructure, so Cyprus has everthing needed for High troop morale.


 * Since when you can change other player algo? You are no Mod Rex Quashi (talk) 03:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't see that one coming.

Shouldn't the fact that cyprus is in the middle of vassalization be taken into account somewhere? Jbwncster (talk) 01:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Wow, I really suck at this.

I didn't realize this was a coalition until now, lol.

I should never do algos again.

St. John's needs to be added.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Who is he? Quashi (talk) 03:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

An ally of mine. Someone joined as them today, and apparently noticed this.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Quashi, I am simply correcting many integral errors in your algo. I am also being considered for possible nomination for algo moderator, so there's that. Anyhow, more errors include: So, with a total of 7 years of war between you two, there are 23 years where you could develop econ/mil scores. This amounts to 46 total points, which we can split 22/24.
 * Attacker's Mil/Econ Scores - If 1 year of development is 2 pts, how did you get 15 points each? It would be 14 and 16, but you cannot develop in a war, so that would reduce Naple's scores.
 * Defender's Mil/Econ Scores - The nation of Cyprus expanded its military/econ/infrastructure every year since 1400. It matters not if a player joins; Cyprus still developed every year prior to (and after) Oct's assumption as the new player.
 * Attacker's Motive - The average of your two nations' motives is what your score should represent. Same with Attacker's Location.

Please do not revert back to the old version without explaining the changes back. As far as my knowledge of the algo goes, this is currently accurate... 07:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

This algo is wrong btw... The nations per side score is not divided by the other side. I've highlighted the issues. Kunarian TALK 08:54, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it is divided. The rules say: "The aid scores for both sides will be completed, then the larger side will be divided by the smaller one. The result, rounded to the nearest whole number, will be the number of points the higher scoring side gets on the algorithm. The lower scoring side gets none."--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:02, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's for military aid and supplies. Not for the leaders. Kunarian TALK 10:11, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This makes no sense.After all, it would only encourage everybody who enters to be a leader to avoid this.I attribute your confusion to bad wording of the rule in itself.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:52, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would think that the head mod would understand the algo. Thanks, though, Kun, for your input. 21:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Someone has changed the result of the algo, and as such I have changed it back. The net result would likely not be different, as the current algo neglects the involvement of the Knights of St. John.
 * "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:38, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Vijaynagar (Attacker)

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Vijaynagar (L), Venad (LV), Bengali (M) 3
 * Military Development: 3/26 = 0
 * Economic Development: 2/30 = 0
 * Expansion: -7
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Motive: Economic (Gains land, resources, etc): 3
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit count: 174
 * UTC: 8:42 = 64
 * Total: 174/64*pi (3.14159265359) = 2.7 1 875
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1
 * Total: 39

Maldivian Defensive Coalition (Defender)

 * Location: (15+25+10)/3 = 17
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (Coordinated)
 * Nations: Timurid Empire (L), Maldives (L), Mamluks (M) 10/7=1
 * Military Development: 3 (Maldives) + 12 (Timurids)/3 = 5
 * Economic Development: 3 (Maldives) + 14 (Timurids)/2 = 8+7 (City bonuses) =15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3 (Maldives)
 * Motive: 10+5+5 (Defending, High Morale, Non-Dem Supported) = 20
 * Chance: 8 (NPC as main leader, so thousandths place used)
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 8+2 = 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 196*1.25= 120

Result
In two years, the defensive coalition can overthrow the government of Vijaynagar.
 * ((126.25/(42+126.25))*2)-1 = 0.50074
 * (0.50074)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.37555

Discussion
I need help with this algo please, I've never done this before Jbwncster (talk) 01:44, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just a warning, the Timurids and the Mamluks will get involved if you do not withdraw at once. 01:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's implausible for you to even know they exist at this point Jbwncster (talk) 01:23, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yes we do, and were coming for you. Although technically were just going to help fortify the Maldives. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   07:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so here are the Indian state's actions since Jb took over: So, according to the rules, mil/econ development cannot take place in the same year as expansion. Prior to Jb taking over the Indian state, however, there were 10 years, which is the same as 4 years of Infrastructure, 3 years of econ, and 3 years of mil.
 * 1410 - Expansion
 * 1411 - Expansion
 * 1412 - Expansion
 * 1413 - Expansion
 * 1414 - Mil/econ
 * 1415 - Expansion

Yes, and these should be divided by two.The chance is also being done wrong.i don't know how you all are getting into your heads that you are supposed to sum the numbers of the UTC time instead of multiply them.The Maldivian coalition also don't get high ground.The Timurids and Mamluks are invading by sea, and the Maldives are nowhere near getting high ground for themselves.And the Larger Empire refers to Colonial Empires.none of you have them.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:16, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I was told that the timurids can't help them yet by 2 mods but someone erased their post.

Also Bengal is my ally and they sent 1,000 Mercs but I guess you all didn't see that. I am also told that the Timurids don't have a navy right now. Jbwncster (talk) 15:10, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

The Timurids do not have an appropriate navy for such an expedition, although I guess you guys figured that out.

Bengal can do whatever it damn pleases. Jb never said his plan was to kill all the Muslims there, just to stop Islam from expanding in its own nation. If Yemen and the Mamlukes can go to war with each other, then Bengal and the Maldives can as well.

I do think this warrants further consideration by the mods, since two said otherwise, unless there is something I am unaware of. I think Viva may have changed his mind, but I am unsure.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 15:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

My Islamic soldiers were sent to defend Vijaynagar, not to help exterminate Maldivians. They were sent to return the favor of them helping Bengal against Jaunpur. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't going to exterminate anyone besides the casualties of war lol, Just wanted to change the government and take land. Jbwncster (talk) 16:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC) 
 * Nkbeeching: it had trading ties with most of the islamic world but it was way to out of the way for them to help the islands
 * dean might be able to help though i dont know, but no way rexi can help

<p class="continued" data-user="Nkbeeching" style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:-15px;padding-right:15px;padding-bottom:16px;padding-left:55px;min-height:0px;position:relative;top:-15px;"> I was told I could post this on chat Jbwncster (talk) 19:25, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Collie, we are not invading via sea. As we have been told regularly, we lack a navy able to capable all of our troops, so we are invading via land. Samarkand has a high enough elevation to count for high ground. In addition, we have larger empires (both colonial and otherwise). I am simply sending aid, not going to war, to boot. 21:05, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Explain to me how can you invade a group of ISLANDS by land? Jbwncster (talk) 21:15, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

We are not invading the island. We are invading your nation (however you spell it!) by land in order to stop your invasion of the island. Once we have wiped out your nation and overthrown your government, we can force the cessation of your invasion, at which point we will have successfully defended the Maldives. 21:35, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Still, you do not get high ground.just because you are on the defender's side doesn't mean that nothing you do can be considered a invasion.You youself just said you are invading Vijayanagar.you don't border them, and the Timurids neither, so you'd have to reach them by sea.Vijayanagar is not even attacking you directly, for your high ground to be considered valid.The nation for which high ground would be vaild has its capital on a low spot, if it has any capital at all.And you are not realizing you and the Timurids do not have colonies.You yourself tried to say you did not have colonies when i said it was implausible just three turns or so ago.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:03, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Several issues with what Rex has previously said. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:33, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Samarkand is no longer the capital of the Timurids, since it has been moved.
 * 2) If you claim that you can't attack them by sea, then how can you by land, when there are several large nations in the way. You have at least three or so nations in the way, and that would prevent you from bordering them and invading them.
 * 3) Neither of you have colonial empires. No one in the world does.

So does this mean dean and rex cant attack? Also eip add yourself to my side as military aid. I'll post more after i get off work Jbwncster (talk) 02:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

If you are attacking me and not helping in the Maldives war where is the separate algorithm anyhow? Jbwncster (talk) 04:09, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that there is need for a separate algorythm.The Timurids joined the Maldives in the war as leaders.And,they can attack.the means by which they'll do that is what disqualifies them from high ground.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:38, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Quashi (talk) 02:50, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Razor (talk) 03:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * 06:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbwncster (talk) 15:15, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 21:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 21:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Nay:
Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Comments:
Examples of my maps Civilizations: The Dawn, New Darkened Ages and Some in the map contest. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

And this one, I missed it Civilizations: The Dawn Geography

While the content of the maps are good, you have been kinda late with CTD maps, so you really have to push yourself to be on time with PMIII. Cookiedamage (talk) 02:44, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

If you actually read our posts and update the map when nations expand, you have my vote. Someone, changed the map several times but neglected expansion in the map updates. Razor (talk) 02:55, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Excuse fucking me, I have not laid a single damn finger on the map because of the unholy shitfest that is known as Europe. Don't even.

02:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Is it a decision for the public, or the mods? And I agree with Scraw, it's a bit of a complicated process. Though, I'm not objected to adding another person to help. Cour *talk* 03:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, then don't work on the map. Razor (talk) 03:06, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I don't. That's what I just said.

03:11, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Then why are you listed as "(Mapmaker only)" on the Main page? Just wondering.Razor (talk) 03:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sine if you promise me to update map whenever nations expand I will vote for you. I trust you, that you will do this. Have my vote. Razor (talk) 03:19, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I am a mapmaker but the map is very complex and I'm not even sure of the identities and locations of some nations.

03:18, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, ah makes sense. I apologize. Razor (talk) 03:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scan asked Scraw and others not to work on the map as of yet on the moderator page until they had gotten a chance to get used to the job. Also the map is a very difficult job, so I don't blame Scraw for being hesitant to edit in complex areas like Europe. Mscoree (talk) 03:27, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I realized that and I apologized. Razor (talk) 03:28, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Accepted. I also apologize if I came off as too harsh.

04:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Is Scand going to post a map for 1415? Because I feel that it is important that we do not get too far behind. To help, I am happy to vote Sine to the Mapmaker post! 06:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Almost done. I had a migraine yesterday and there is a lot of territorial changes but I'm almost through. Scandinator (talk) 07:48, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

A Thought on the MS Controversy
MS, he has done a magnificent job on this wiki, a great job. He helps, he does great timelines. Yet ever since his clash with LG everyone has treated him like crap, thinking him unfit for much of anything. It is not right for you to treat a person so helpful, its like how all people treat there mothers when growing up, you treat them like shit when all there trying to do is help you do the right thing, or to teach you something. My point is all of us are acting like children here. We need to think, let us not treat MS as a disobedient child treats its parents, lets treat him as a freind treats a freind. Should you not learn to calm down, and treat him with the respect he deserves, I will nominate myself for impeachment and see where it takes us. Sims -The Rainbow Machete  05:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, Sr. has spoken. Ms is no parental figure. If anything he is that troublemaker in school who always convinces you to do something wrong and then tucks in his shirt and puts on his scholarly face when you get caught by an authoritative figure. I am not unsure that most people here will agree that you might as well be impeached, considering that you don't do mod things.

/Ye I just saw what LG said. I'll just step out of here now.

05:51, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

LG, i care nothing for your opinion, and your thought of as an ass by a large chunk of this wiki. Step out now. All you do is try and bash someone for sticking up to you. Get out, and make it seem like your tail isnt between your legs. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:56, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

And LG, it seems your trying to bash me as well. Dirty there reputation so they cant stand up to you? You would make a fine politician. And since when did you give a damn about map games anyway? Was it when it involved your rival, MS, or when it apeared you could knock him down a few pegs and make yourself look better to the crowd which has tried numerous times to impeach you, an act I would love to see suceed. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   06:03, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dean, that's enough. LG was trying to calm a fight in a section labeled 'Ms and his shit'. I think we all could use a second or two to catch our breaths here and calm down. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 13:35, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

A formal apology
I feel that after having calmed down after the whole terrible incident that occured over the past days that I have been a little out of hand. I'll make this apology only once, as I'm sure my temprament will get the betterment of me at least one more time over the course of my time in this game. I stand resolute in my belief that MS should not be a mod for his own sake as much as everyone elses. What I do regret is that I simply lost control. I would have followed Guns out of the game had I not just left this alone last night and rested, so I'm still in it for the meantime.

I hope that we can all recuperate and pick up the pieces, as this game should be one of the best ways to make a fun and varied timeline in a way that involves everyone. Rather than a ground for bickering, grudges and upset. Kunarian TALK 09:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I accept your apology. Mscoree (talk) 13:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Not entirely sure it was aimed at you, Ms, but hey. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)
 * Truthfully it was aimed at everyone and anyone. Kunarian TALK 17:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

We need more of this. This is a game, remember, and the point is to write history, not become the strongest nation in the world.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 17:46, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Italian League discussion
In the interests of fleshing this out so that we can properly use it as part of the game, I'm opening this discussion section. I propose setting up a constitution for the league so we can have a methodology for the league

Venice's Proposals
Many of these are taken from the original post and then expanded upon.

Concerning defining the members
 * 1) Florence, Milan, Naples and Venice shall be known as chief members of the Italian League.
 * 2) All vassals of the chief members shall be considered protectorate members of the Italian League.

Concerning defining the methods of the League
 * 1) When border and claim disputes occur, any chief member may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a representative to discuss the issue until it is resolved. Upon resolution of the issue, all respresentatives of the chief members must sign the resolution to make it valid.
 * 2) All chief members must agree to an economic deal between the members of the League. When a chief member wants to make a revision to the economic deal they may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a reprentative to consider revisions. Upon consideration of the revisions, all chief members must sign the new economic deal to make it valid.
 * 3) All chief members must agree to an alliance to defend all other chief members and protectorate members of the League.
 * 4) When concerning other matters, any chief member may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a representative to discuss the issue until it is resolved. Upon resolution of the issue, a supermajority of the respresentatives of the chief members must sign the resolution to make it valid.
 * 5) All valid resolutions, economic deals and alliances must be defended by all chief members.

Discussion (league players)
Here is a section for the nations that are invited to be part of the Italian League.

This will be a good league, but at this time we lose Florence, and Milan is not very active, so we only have 2 real players here. I hope we can make it work anyway Kun - Quashi
 * We can, technically me and Florence are in the league. But Florence might be joining with me soon properly so we don't have to worry on that front. But we shall make the league work, even with 2 players. Kunarian TALK 18:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion (non-league nations)
Here is a section for the nations that are not invited to be part of the Italian League.

Scandinavia and England
How is it exactly plausible for England to rule the Kalmar. England can't plausibly play as the Kalmar, as they are two whole separate nations with barely any cultural ties. Furthermore it is pretty much meta gaming if a player just leaves the game and says something like: "I quit! Let <Insert Name> play as me." and then proceeds to write in their turn that their king and all their heirs die, so this means <Insert nation name here> can rule over my nation. User:Edboy452    (talk) 22:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed.

23:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I also agree that it is implausible for the UNC to hand its nation to England. Mscoree (talk) 23:19, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It seems odd to me too. I'll gladly assume control of the KU if needed. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 23:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Crim plz. I think it's best for it to become special NPC.

23:22, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No joke, the KU was going to be my first choice before Guns took it. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 00:08, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * But will you drop Florence?


 * 01:36, February 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd have to, but it's not like Italy'll be totally empty without me. We have plenty of good players there. Making the KU an NPC nation seems silly when someone (me) is very willing to play it. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 01:44, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought you wanted to unite Florence and Kalmar. K that's way better. No objection.
 * 01:47, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Very funny Crim.

The King of England, though not the closest in Line to the individual thrones, was related to Eric of Pomerania- and there would be no other claimants, as Eric himself had no family, save for his adoptive mother, Margaret. Who is dead as of 1412.

And seriously, STOP CALLING IT THE KALMAR. Do you call the USA the Philidelphia Union, because the Constitution was written there?

23:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It was kalled the Kalmar Union in OTL.

23:31, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

No, that's what historians called it, because it's no longer around, so we aren't sure what they actually would call themselves.

23:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

They called it The Youmaycallusthekalmarunioninthefuturebutwecallourselvesomethingdifferentbutwealsomostcertainlydidnotcallourselvestheunitednorsecrownbecausethathasinitialsandwedonotlikeinitialsoracronymization Kingdom.

01:36, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Just like MP and his Romans. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Hey now, that is completely different, lol

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:48, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

'''I would like to defend my control over the former UNC, the English Royal family is the only other nation in Europe with ties enough to assume control, also I do not plan on retaining control indefinitely they will eventually be released under the condition that they remain friendly with Albion and maintain alliances. I know I cannot possible hold those regions indefinitely, though when the split does occur( probably within the next 20-30 years) I will retain Iceland and a Crown holding and possibly Denmark, everything else will revert to being independent.'''Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

In OTL the end of Eric of Pomerania's reign ment the start of one of many civil wars in the union. Considering that this event happened twenty years earlier, it seems like this war would start early as well. When you leave the game you can't just hand your nation to someone, even if they are losely related. Mscoree (talk) 13:09, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Then I will let them go, though I do request I at least retain Iceland. I assumed things would still go as otl, just possibly delayed. Unlike the other European nations I have a claim, it was not unusual for other nations to make a royal claim when no other heir is present. I would very much like to hold them for a time then let them rebel away. I didn't plan on keeping them forever.Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:13, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Currently Norwary, Denmark, and Sweden are all rebelling and at war with each other. If you want to swoop in and seize Iceland from Norwar then go ahead. Mscoree (talk) 13:15, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I love how you rebel away all these territories without even deciding to ask me about it. There was nothing terribly implausible about me retaining, then letting them go their merry way, you made a ruling without me being present to defend my side, forgive me for being a little irritated. You go vassalising the HRE and yet I'm the implausible one for holding on to a nation for a short period of time WHO IS RELATED TO MY KING? This is ludicrous. I told you, they will rebel, but I feel like my claim is a legitimate claim, and I'm not done arguing my case( forgiveness if this sounds rough or crass it is quite early hereBowties are Cool (talk) 13:20, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

All three of those nations elected their own king (like OTL) who they hoped could be the sole king. I was under the impression that England never actually acquired the UNC since that was deemed implausible yesterday, as several mods agreed. Just because your king is loosely related to their king does not mean you can take their entire nation when they leave the game. If that was the case I could inherit all of Europe. Even if you did acquire the entire UNC somehow, it is quite clear that none of the three kingdoms would recognize you; some Norman who is just now adopting the use of a Germanic language. For all intents and purposes assume that you never did own the UNC, but now that they are in upheavel you could attack and seize some stuff, like Iceland possibly. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok. I agree that they might not recognise a Norman claimant I forgot about that rid bit of history( pretty big oops if you ask me, must be the morning) is it possible for me to war with Norway then? Also as they are npc and in a civil war, how does one work this? Do I use an algorithm? I'm a bit foggy on the rules at the moment, a long night.Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:30, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yes all three are NPC's that you can declare war on. You still need to use an algorithm, and I think since they were recently a player nation that you use the UNC's score. If not you use one third of your scores for each. Mscoree (talk) 13:44, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

NOVA IS BEING ASB
Nova is being completely ASB with this war she forced her way into. Also in 1411 she went and reditted her post to add herself into the war that Bengal started and I was never added into the algo as helping. Nova has been deleting posts and forcing her way into wars when several mods have told her not to. Is there anything that can be done? Jbwncster (talk) 03:50, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

oh god, not this again...

First things first, keep it damn civil, you two. First person to break civility will suffer my wrath.

Second, i will explore the validity of your claims tomorrow, when I will be able to, unless another unbiased mod wishes to take on this task before hand.

I swear, this game has created more rivalries and feuds than any other...

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:54, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Also, use correct pronouns and name, considering Nova recently came out as transgender. Cookiedamage (talk) 03:56, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

No one officially said you had my land yet either, I'll be on chat if anyone wants to discuss anything civilly as well. Jbwncster (talk) 04:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I will allow the both of you to post your respective arguments here and ONLY here. ONE SINGLE POST EACH. NO INSULTS OR ANYTHING. Lay out why you think you should be allowed to do something or why someone should not be allowed to do something. If I return and find out that there is more than that here, I will not be amused, and actions will be taken that will not be kind.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Jbw, you were defeated in the war. Writing this in cap locks because you lost the war will not change its outcome, true, it may damage my reputation, but thats neither here nor there. If you have an issue, simply open a new section stating Problems With Sims or whatnot, or message other mods about it. This isnt the way to go. Nova   04:12, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I just wish she'd wait until the disputes are taken into account before I'm wiped from the game. Jbwncster (talk) 04:23, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

In a war you wouldn't have a reason to join. the maldives are a bunch of small islands that are far enough from you to not to care about them you have more issues on your own lands than in there, and Vijaynagar is too far from you to annex it and too big for the Maldives to annex it, I mean, if it was a bigger Muslim state and or closer to you i would see you joining the War, but they are just a puny island in the middle of nowhere that can't be reallistically in any harm to you, You just want to take over india and starting with Vijaynagar is a good choice, but that is Metagaming specially for the implausible alliance part Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 18:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nations have used crazier alliances, its a casus bella and a good one. Nations in OTL have jumped at chances like this, when the enemy launches an attack agaisnt a helpless state, and they attack in order to help "save" the little state, taking spoils of war without much international backlash. Considering how turbulent politics and war are, it makes sense. Nova   18:18, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah,but you are not an ally of them. and Vijaynagar is not a sworn enemy of yours, your sole intention to help someone you didn't care of is implausible, and the maldives is  an example of that. You have no reason outside of metagaming to join the maldives side. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Recent wars had them joining the war against the Timurids vassals, therefor making them an enemy of the Timurids. Nova   19:08, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Technically it didn't count as I wasn't added into the algorithm Jbwncster (talk) 21:57, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I calling BS on this... there is no plausible explanation for you to be involved in the maldives other than you share an overarching religion (as does 95% of europe which still goes to kill eachother). You have no reason and would liek a true mod consensus on whether its plausible. Dean cant even hold the territory if he does take it....

GUESS WHO'S HERE TO RUIN EVERYTHING
I'd like to become more active and play as the kingdom of Georgia, beautiful caucus nation. OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 04:14, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Good Luck Oreo, I have always wanted to see an Empire arise from the Caucasuses. This will be interesting to say the least. Nova   04:25, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oh... uh, sorry, didn't realize you wanted Georgia before I signed up for it. I'd offer to retract and hand you the spot, but I already input this year's orders and got a response from Muscovy. Please accept my humblest apologies! TankOfMidgets (talk) 02:34, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I have decided to not play... rip  OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 21:05, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Ashikaga

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L +4)
 * Military Development:= 14/3 = 5
 * Economic Development: = 16/3 = 5
 * Expansion: -1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: Economic 12 (Gains land, resources, etc): 3, Pre-emptive Strike against a nation rapidly building military forces: + 5, Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Chance: 9
 * Editcount: 363
 * UTC time:21:02
 * 363/4 x pi = 285.099533
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: x1.25
 * Total: 62x 1.25 = 77

Hatekeyama

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 
 * Nations: Hatekeyama (L +4)
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economic Development: 3 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Motive: Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: = 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: x 1.25
 * Total: 53 x 1.25 = 67

Result

 * ((77/(67+77))*2)-1 = 2,74%
 * (2.74)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 10.965

Discussion
So I win 11% of the Hatekeyama's land right? - Shadow

No.You won only 6,9%.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:19, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Venetian Civil War (1417-14??)
And so the long planned civil war begins. Finally the nobles have had enough and wish to unmake Michiel as Doge, however he has consolidated his power so much that he cannot be removed by traditional systems. His struggles to eliminate dangerous enemies and aim to reform the governments across the Empire have erupted into a full blown conflict. Giovanni Pieromo sits exiled in a hall in Aquilia, masterminding his allies schemes while the Doge sits in his Palace, digging his hands deeper into the Republic one day at a time. Nobles in Venice are divided but side more with Giovanni but the rich city merchants are fully in Michiel's lap. Across the Empire people declare their allegiances and make bold moves to help their allies. But who will win? I don't know. But I do know that it'll be quite the ride.

Here's something to keep track of the conflict. I'll also add people that join in with their nations.


 * Declarants and their allegiances
 * Doge of Venice, Michiel Roscol:
 * Venice
 * Nobles of Venice (minority) - having secured Veneto, they rest in Venice
 * Merchants of Venice - in Corfu, helping to defend it
 * Aegina
 * Rettore of Aegina and Venetian Poténsa of Athens, Frederico Doro - in Athens with an army
 * Rettore of Aegina, Geragio Doro, son of Frederico - with his father in Athens
 * Athens
 * Venetian Poténsa of Athens, Jacopo Dal Sol - killed in the 2nd Battle of Athens
 * Attica
 * Nobles of Attica - in Athens, fortifying the city
 * Kingdom of Candia
 * King of Candia, Egidio Morosini - imprisoned by forces loyal to Pieromo in Candia
 * Epirus
 * Governor General of Epirus, Christofo Roscol, younger brother of Michiel - in western Epirus with an army and forces from Prevezo
 * Epirus Free Ports
 * Nobles of Epirus (majority) - Titani locking down in their city, Preveza staying alert
 * Naxos
 * Duke of Naxos, Giovanni II Crispo - under guard in Naxos
 * Negroponte
 * Gastàldo of Negroponte, Rizardo Lacaris - in Negropont, turning the capital over to Roscol
 * Foreign Support
 * Hamburg - help sent was defeated by the Free Port Saranda
 * Knights of Saint John - 500 knights of the order have captured Naxos, further forces are arriving to assist
 * Hungary - showing support
 * England - showing support
 * Exiled Noble, Giovanni Pieromo - killed in the 2nd Battle of Treviso
 * Exiled Noble, Viti Pieromo:
 * Venice
 * Nobles of Venice (majority) - leaders imprisoned by forces loyal to Roscol in Venice
 * Athens
 * Claimant to Aegina and Poténsa of Athens, Teodor da Vale - killed in the 3rd Battle of Athens
 * Kingdom of Candia
 * Nobles of Candia - ruling through the captured king, waiting to evaluate the situation
 * Epirus
 * Southern Nobles - deafeated and killed or imprisoned
 * Epirus Free Ports
 * Nobles of Epirus (minority) - in Saranda they are fortifying
 * Naxos
 * Duke of Naxos, Giacomo I Crispo - killed in the Battle of Naxos
 * Negroponte
 * King of Negroponte, Nicolo Zorzi - Marching on Negropont
 * Peloponnese territories
 * Nobles of the territories - Fortifying their holdings
 * Foreign Support
 * Naples - sending their fleet to support Pieromo and blockade Venice, a small force has been repelled from Corfu by lies on another nearby island ready to attack
 * Neutral:
 * Athens
 * Roman Poténsa of Athens, Alexios Psellus - freed once more by forces loyal to Roscol
 * Corfu
 * Nobles of Corfu - in Corfu, recovering from another sudden invasion
 * Son of Napolitan noble - imprisoned by forces loyal to Corfu in Corfu
 * Kaffa
 * Governor General of Kaffa, Victor Borozzi - in the town of Kaffa, having crushed the rebels
 * Rebel leader, Grisigon Mamoli - fleeing to Genoa across the Black Sea, hoping to gain support
 * Self-proclaimed Protector of the Crimea, Stephen of Theodoro - protecting Kaffa


 * Battles (in chronological order)
 * 1418
 * 1st Battle of Treviso - decisive Roscol victory
 * 1st Siege of Saranda - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of the Aeginetan Gulf - Pieromo victory
 * Siege of Rethymnon - indecisive
 * Battle of Santi Apostoli - Pieromo victory
 * 1st Battle of Athens - decisive Roscol victory
 * 1419
 * Battle of Pieromo House - decisive Roscol victory
 * 2nd Siege of Saranda - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Corfu - Corfiot victory
 * Seige of Prevezo - Roscol victory
 * 2nd Battle of Athens - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Marathon - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Candia - decisive Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Naxos - Roscol victory
 * 1420
 * Battle of the Ionian Sea - decisive Corfiot victory
 * Battle of Kaffa - Kaffan victory
 * 2nd Battle of Treviso - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Titani - Roscol victory
 * 3rd Battle of Athens - Roscol victory
 * Battle of Thebes - Pieromo victory
 * 1421
 * Battle of Venice - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Othonoi Island - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Negropont - Roscol victory
 * 3rd Battle of Seranda - indecisive
 * Battle of Sitia - Roscol victory

Discussion
So Michiel. Very Roscol. Wow Venice.

02:05, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Currently I'm gunning for Michiel, although it does concern me that Pieromo is winning many battles. Especially I didn't expect them to conquer Aegina. Currently Pieromo does outweigh the Roscol supporters in sheer military strength however I don't know how long that will last. Btw I am using a randomiser with modifiers to represent the strength of certain forces to decide the battles, so ultimately I don't know who'll win. I'm not just messing with you. :L Kunarian TALK 15:43, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can we have a third candidate? Naples will send support soon! XD Quashi (talk) 18:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who knows, a third may arise. Currently there is only Michiel Roscol and Giovanni Pieromo and they have support of most of the Venetian nobles. Only Corfu and Kaffa remain in the middle, and Corfu is considering becoming seperatist (which may or may not happen depending on whether they think they can get away with it, and its too soon to tell that) but Kaffa is dealing with a rebellion. Where would a third candidate come from? Kunarian TALK 18:29, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure, but remember that corfu was napolitan until 1398... because the internal crisis, but now that the kingdom prospers... who kwnos. From corfu may come the new candidate, but i hope no a separatist one. Pieromo will restore the nobility? left the republic? Quashi (talk) 20:52, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * However Corfu experienced plagues of despair under the rule of Naples and placed itself under the protection of Venice, who knows maybe adventurers will threaten it again now that the eyes of Venice do not watch its children so closely... Giovanni Pieromo is against the lesser nobles (most of whom support the Roscols) and believes in establishing a more hereditary republic, preferably with him at the head. Kunarian TALK 21:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I myself are leaning mostly towards Roscol, only because the Doge has helped out the Empire greatly so far. It is thought by several Roman nobles that joining the war on the side of the Doge will allow the Empire to regain several Pieromo territories in Greece. However, some do find the idea of a "hereditary republic" alluring. While unlikely to cause the Romans to enter a civil war on their own, it may garantee their eventual involvement. And what is the story of the rebellion in Kaffa?
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:24, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Roscol has certainly made many friends and many enemies but his treatment of the elder Giovanni Pieromo and the Bastards rebellion shows that he cannot tolerate rivals. In Kaffa, a Genoan noble who was part of the old regime has revealed himself and plans on retaking the colony and is marching on Kaffa itself, he still has support as the colony is freshly Venetian however the good Governor General is fortifying as we speak and so who knows the rebellion may be crushed or Kaffa may be temporarily occupied. Kunarian TALK 08:26, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Concerning the areas Naxos has occupied being considered neutral on the map. We must wait for the various players to declare or not declare allegiance to the new Duke of Naxos. Kunarian TALK 10:31, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have may some Godmodding
Recently, in the 1417 turn, I posted a diplomacy asking for a reply by a mod since it was to NPC nations. For an odd reason, Garjat turned down my alliance offer due to my war with Jaunpur. That however, makes no sense since Garjat AIDED me in my war AGAINST Jaunpur. Next, three relatively small nations declined my alliance proposal, offering trade instead, but I control the trade of two of those nations, and they also said they could "Hold their own" against the Timurids. So I got to checking what mod replied and I was met with a bit of a problem. The person who added the diplomacy was not logged in at the time, and had the IP of 216.157.209.62. By asking around, Scraw comfirmed the IP to be Nova's, and a search on the IP determined it to be from Michigin, the same state Nova lives in, as confirmed by MP, which is considerable evidence already.

Assuming this is Nova who made the edit, I detest it for a number of reasons.
 * 1) Nova has made multiple statements of wanting to conquer India, both publicly and privately to me, offering me a place in Iraq and support in conquest if I was to switch from Bengal to Iraq to favor her preferred conquests.
 * 2) Nova's recent controversial interventions in India against Vjayanagar confirm this suspicion.
 * 3) Depriving Bengal of allies for reasons that make no sense (See above about Garjat especially) further proves the point of wanting to conquer India, as little allies for Bengal would make Bengal a very easy target for Nova's Timurid's.
 * 4) The act of logging out and not posting with username information, and allowing only IP to show only proves guilt and the knowledge of wrongdoing, rather than absent-mindedly forgetting to log in. (Post before the mod diplomacy addition, and Post  that created the diplomacy.) Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 02:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

<p style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;">I have also had several posts, along with other mods, deleted by dean. My 1415 post was removed and dean just removed feds post about not having my nations just yet.

Examples of Deans not so handy work:
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/index.php?title=Principia_Moderni_III_%28Map_Game%29&diff=926388&oldid=926385
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/index.php?title=Principia_Moderni_III_%28Map_Game%29&diff=922902&oldid=922899
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Principia_Moderni_III_(Map_Game)?s=wldiff&diff=0&oldid=926447

Jbwncster (talk) 02:05, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

So deleting posts, posting without a username (aka posting with your ip) attempted or possible godmodding, Implauso invasion of Vijanagar (a Timmie invasion is logistically impossible i did all the factors up and it doesnt equal out to a hospitalble way for the Timmies to plausibly take them) Screwing other players out of their nations by essentially leaving them weak... isnt that the grounds for a certain action to be taken??

Impeachment of Nova
You've seen the evidence. I don't think there's any way you can deny that Nova is not mod material.--Yank 02:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Only mods vote Jbwncster (talk) 02:47, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Aye

 * I see some pretty damning evidence. I must side here I am afraid Bowties are Cool (talk) 03:53, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbw is right. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 07:21, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Stop removing my votes.
 * Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 04:00, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Nay

 * Scandinator (talk) 04:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:00, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Scraw please move your vote. You technically aren't a moderator. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 02:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I have voted in other impeachments thus far. I don't see why you're voicing your objection now.

03:24, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Deanova you can't vote. It's about you. Plz.

03:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

You cant vote. Your only a mapmaker. It states so. And jbw is only doing this becasue i destroyed him in a war. Also i was logged out because they were changing my username and my account was locked. And for gods sake its NOT DEAN. Deanova is an even greater insult, its like calling me some half and half beast. -Nova 03:30, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

OK fine, Nova. Jeez, calm the heck down, will you? I have to get used to calling you nova out of the blue. Also, you should've objected to my voting when Ms was on for impeachment. Enough with double standards. Please point out where it states that a mapmaker cannot vote. I would also like to point out that I have access to the mod page and am treated as a mod in all respects save that I cannot make mod events, which I don't want to anyways.

03:45, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

He can vote nuff said, hes on the list under moderators which entitles him to a vote. That is a double standard at its finest if Scraw couldnt vote. and considering neither collie nor scan have said anything about scraw voting before this i think you need to calm it down

I've viewed the evidence and I do not believe it is grounds to remove her as a mod. She has a proper explanation for several of the accusations. However I would ask her to refrain from modding in India due to controversy. Garjat is also a vassal of Orissa and thus that is the real reason of the decline. Posting without a username is due to the current migration of her account. And the examples of her removing posts are most likely due to edit conflicts and attempting to correct your post (Jbw's) changing the page to source mode. Scandinator (talk) 04:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

The issue is resolved. All sides have come to an understanding and agreement. Scandinator (talk) 05:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

This is literally the third impeachment of a mod to occur in PMIII (fourth if you count the re-impeachment of Ms) and it hasn't even been a month yet. :/ Cookiedamage (talk) 05:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

My opinion: people are too quick to impeach mods. The problems should be discussed civilly as much as possible with the mod in question.

I agree with I Am That Guy. An effort should at least be made to reconcile the issue, as it appears Scan has done. Mscoree (talk) 11:37, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Resolved? Still haven't gotten a reason on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable", and they "Can hold their own" versus the Timurids. Hold their own, you know, Koch and Aohm, the two nations rely on me just so they get enough food to feed their people? (And just to clarify, I wasn't the one who did this impeachment, I attempted to resolve it by posting on the talk page about why I thought it was unjust of Nova to do mod actions in India, considering it looks very bad when the person that wants to take over all of India starts depriving a person of allies with shoddy reasons through mod powers.) Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 13:16, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I really should take up Orissa again and kick Timurid ass... Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

No thanks lol.

04:06, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Aye

 * Jbwncster (talk) 03:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 05:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC) (Still haven't gotten a response on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable". And Nova saying that she deleted Fed's post about crossing out the Vijayanagar vassal posts because "Rex told her Fed was out to get her" doesn't sit right with me as a reason.)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 05:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC) (Still haven't gotten a response on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable". And Nova saying that she deleted Fed's post about crossing out the Vijayanagar vassal posts because "Rex told her Fed was out to get her" doesn't sit right with me as a reason.)

Nay

 * <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor Nabil.png  03:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Wohoo 2k!
Yeah!

Yey! <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor

Treaty terms

 * The Maldives will remain independent
 * Vijaynagar will pay tribute to the Timurid Empire for 15 years
 * Vijaynagar will recognize the Maldives and Jaffna as sovreign states

Signatories
Timurid Empire Vijaynagar Maldives (MOD-signed)
 * -Nova
 * I will only accept this if nova can behave like a civilized person Jbwncster (talk) 16:58, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Scandinator (talk)

Meta-game Treaty

 * The impeachment of Nova will be removed as it is a) not approved prior by two mods. b) had insufficient and misunderstood evidence
 * Nova will no longer mod in India.

Discussion
I support this treaty. I think it's better to talk out disputes then try to quickly impeach someone. Mscoree (talk) 15:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

It helps in talking out problems with a persons actions when all things are addressed, but instead it seems that only a few things have to be addressed for the whole thing to be resolved. And let me be clear again, nobody who posted about the problems with Nova's actions created the impeachment. Yank created the Impeachment. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Firstly the Treaty is implausible and its biased towards Nova, Which i can't allow. Last time things like this turned PM2 into a shithole of ASB which was the reason we started this earlier. and he can't gain anything at all from a war he shouldn't have won, because he shouldn't have joined. Laws are for Everyone and Metagaming is Certainly outlawed. Including to us mods. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 17:02, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Scan wrote it all. I didnt write the thing. And how is it biased, I wrecked JBWs nation, the only reason Im not annexing it is becasue I cant hold it. -Nova

I don't think I should lose Jaffna, I won't sign if I do, also nova keeps saying I don't have Venad as a vassal and keeps erasing my claims.Jbwncster (talk) 19:13, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'll do everything else but give up jaffna Jbwncster (talk) 03:35, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

To late now. You wouldnt accept the treaty, so im taking a northern strip of your land. -Nova 03:45, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have been at work since 5pm eastern so I couldn't do anything and I just got home 30 minutes ago Jbwncster (talk) 03:54, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well since you have proven you hate me and are taking it out on me via chat and my nation and you aren't going to stop no matter how many people tell you to or how many things people are willing to compromise on maybe I should just leave the whole wikia and never come back if that's how the community is treating people Jbwncster (talk) 04:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Come on, Jb, don't be like that. We still have Steam Age in the works.

I guess I can't reason with someone who just takes things into his own hands and does what they want. Jbwncster (talk) 05:18, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''since nova won't do any negotiations and has already tried to take land without proper reasoning can we scrap this war and go back and I won't attack them? Jbwncster (talk) 06:03, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''He's going to just take them by force so if any mod wants to do something they can. Jbwncster (talk) 06:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Nova, consider this a first warning. In addition, the treaty terms will hold. Jaffna is a stable state and thus land seized from it would mean war, that term is to smooth out continuity. You should be able to take all of Lanka soon. Just give it a little while. Scandinator (talk) 08:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Nova, you have seen what Scan said, have been warned by LG, and now you just posted a new picture taking even more land... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'ii'''

'''i was warned about swearing, not PM3. And as it seems jbw still hasnt signed the treaty. Henceforth I dont have to follow it. I have logs proving i tried to negotate with him and you can ask Andrew and Rex both that i tried to negotiate and he would not. -Nova 15:56, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

It was all one sided, you kept trying to take land and even more land and you won't even consider that you shouldn't have bothered in the first place, now you keep taking everything and won't accept the fact that you can't just take anything until everything is settled Jbwncster (talk) 15:58, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''You wouldnt accept a fair treaty that took nothing. So i had to take land. You continue to insult me and call me ASB instead of offering a reasonable counteroffer. You just say implausible when the mods are split half and half on the war, making it valid. You scream in order to be heard, bashing me and turning the wiki agasint me. Now for all your trouble Im taking you over. -Nova 16:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

Nova,  '''I have logs of Crim telling you to just entertain the idea of his counter-offer, for the sake of negotiations, for at least thirty minutes, and all you said is "No". I also have logs of you harassing Jb to the point of him wanting to quit, to where you in fact encouraged him to leave the wiki. Ask Feud, ask Jb, ask Crim, ask anyone who was on when we all tried to get you to negotiate, but you spent then entirety of the time saying "No, he won't sign." Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:05, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Yeah, i did encourage him to leave. He harrases me as much if not more than i do which i have logs of. He said "i should just leave", rage quitting because he lost. So yes, i said he should leave, ive been told as much in the past, yet no cared then. Why does it matter now. -Nova 16:11, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'(NEW POST) Nova, you threaten to quit the wiki very often, and all people do, is encourage you to stay on, to not feel bad, to not feel sad. All we try to do, is keep you on when you rage so you don't quit. Please, attempt to show the same compassion we show you. I believe I've sent you PM's in chat twice before, to say everything I could to keep you on the wiki when you want to leave it for good. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 22:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'

Now he won't listen to scan and is saying he's just going to take the land and move on and won't talk more about it Jbwncster (talk) 16:17, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''You wouldnt listen to Scan and sign the treaty in which you lost nothing at all. A dumb move on your mark. -Nova 16:20, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''I'm fine with the original treaty just not losing my expansion in jaffna, that was the only thing I wasn't ok with and when dean found out he assumed I didn't like the whole thing and wouldn't even negotiate. Now if dean is willing to negotiate on this page for everyone to see and not in chat I'll be willing to continue talks Jbwncster (talk) 16:22, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

N'''ow he wants to ban me from the whole game because he can't negotiate. I have posted a screenshot of DEAN banning me because he can't be civil.'''



I knew you were gonna try that. You edited another players post twice. You were warned. Then you did it again. Now your banned. -Nova 16:49, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Dean keeps crossing out posts and saying he's going to take land no matter how and won't even listen to Scan about accepting the treaty Jbwncster (talk) 17:12, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have a suggestion to both of the players. Due to the recent information I have gained whilst observing the argument between Jbwncster and NovaSims I have noticed two important things. Nova's argument is that Jbw took too much time to sign the treaty, which was according to Jbw physically impossible due to him having real life duties. Yet, according to Jbw, he also did not sign the treaty due to him not wanting to lose Jaffna. Now, since Nova is technically the winner of the war, (s)he should be the one who is able to change the treaties. After another discussion with the partakers in the war, I have come up with a reasonable suggestion for both players. All terms that have been decided beforehand remain, and multiple ones are added. First of all, Jbwncster, henceforth known as the loser, will also have to give up Venad, due to the fact that he has lost between a nation multiple times bigger than him and I myself do not believe the leader(s) of Venad would choose to stay. Second of all would be that the loser is forbidden to vassalize nations for the next fifteen years. Thirdly, NovaSims, henceforth known as the winner, will not be able to vassalize or conquer any nation that the loser lost untill the loser pays off his tribute. Last but not least, both the winner and the loser are not allowed to in any way insult eachother on the PMIII map game or its talk page, or they will be punished accordingly by the moderators of said map game. That would be all ladies and gentlemen, I hope you give it a thought or two. Thank you in advance.

Cheers -

Im for it. -Nova 17:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not allowed to have a marriage then this game is over for me, Also if I can't have vassals or anything for 15 turns by then all the europeans will be in india and can destroy me anyhow. Jbwncster (talk) 17:40, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

The comments above have been taken into consideration. Jbwncster's vassalization ban could be lowered to 10 years rather than 15 and marriage has not and shan't be prohibited by the treaty.

If the proposal is accepted, I will also, as its creator make sure its terms are followed.-

Also can we just have a mod decide what to do? Since nova won't reason with me. Jbwncster (talk) 18:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Im trying to reason with you. You wont budge  -Nova 19:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

You don't try to reason, you are trying to halt his expansion by using your mod powers, and Scan doesn't want to slap your hand from doing it because you are a mod, But i believe this treaty and the war should've been retconned from the beginning, and the continuous discussion about this proves my point. IF YOU ANNEX HIM I'LL THUNDERSTORM YOU. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 00:32, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I keep getting my posts crossed out and I feel dean just wants to abuse his mod powers and just cheat all the way. He won't reason with anyone unless they bow down to him and give him everything. Jbwncster (talk) 01:14, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Anti-Godmodding/Bias Rule
I believe we all have seen the recent events involving Nova, previous to that Scan alleged De facto 1-turn vassalage period and Ms Russia's invasion which dragged a Huge part of the HRE. I believe that some of this issues could have been easily solved if the mods were not to meddle in their regions or regions where they show direct pretentions (Saying for an Example that i can't post something like Bourbon collapses and its absorbed by France, nor Bourbon joins the side of france against a war with the Castilians or Aragonese) this would be to avoid any further crisis from coming out of people fighting over implausible events or biased events that for now have given an advantage or influence of the mod nation. In this case the rule could be applied in a fairly simple way. For an instance France cannot be involved in any mod event in the french states and or about the french unification process. the Timurids can't be involved in events relative to persia or northwestern india, the rule also would imply that mods can't use their modhood to like Nova allegedly did halt everyone else expansion within india. To be short
 * 1) Mods can't meddle in the events related to their nations or to nearby nations that are within the claimed area or territory that's targeted to expand.
 * 2) Mod nations can't join wars implausibly to nations historically ignored by most of the nations or a relatively ignored by the nations nor enemies being attacked by Player nations (at least not without previous plausible vassalage attempts)
 * 3) No hyper vassalizations to NPC nations, Interventions are plausible without algorithms if there's is no intention to annex them or vassalize them immediately, or initiating this way the vassalization. a minimum period of vassalization for a nation half of your size would be 5 to 6 turns, However this may change depending if other mods agree.
 * 4) No mod-puppeting. This implies that no nation NPC or Player can be forced by a mod to join a war, and that even if alliance, there has to be an implicit declaration by the player nation for them to be considered in the algo. or a message from itself in the algo discussion to be accepted as part of the algo.

Mods may agree on this and vote if you like to do this and players can ( and please do it) give me their opinion in order to fix and expand this rule. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk) 17:45, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Good proposal; well thought out.
 * Bowties are Cool (talk) 23:50, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not Bad. Note that this rule may be undone by a mod vote if necessary. Cour *talk* PMII_Mayan_Flag.pngCaborr_Flag.png 00:41, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Quashi (talk) 18:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kunarian  TALK<span style="background-color:rgb(242,242,242);line-height:14px;"> 18:29, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbwncster (talk) 19:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 21:55, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cookiedamage (talk) 00:40, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor Nabil.png  04:53, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not know why this was not accepted earlier. 05:42, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not know why this was not accepted earlier. 05:42, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Fun fact, in England, voting is done in Ayes and Noes rather than Yays and Nays. Kunarian TALK 18:34, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

No wonder their Empire fell apart *lamepun*

The HRE has never invaded Russia. Mscoree (talk) 22:02, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese civil war
As we all might know, Shadow has been attacking multiple daimyos since the beginning of the game. Now, due to the fact that he is destabillizing his authority within a region where the local leaders held on to their independence very strongly.

Therefore I suggest a mod event in 1419 that would start the Japanese civil war, and maybe even create alliance between multiple daimyos, for example an alliance of the southern daimyos. Also I'd be happy if mods checked shadows posts more often as nearly every one of his posts contains something ASB.

That would be all, thank you in advance ladies and gentlemen.

i whole heartedly agree with this idea. Nkbeeching (talk) 19:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

im for it. Ill take care of the issue. -Nova 19:41, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

There is no need for a civil war. How else would I get more land without war. Sti this stupidness now. - Shadow

it isnt stupid its the natural result of your bloody expansion. every action has a consequence. Nkbeeching (talk) 23:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

massive chinese fleet?
i can understand alot of things in pm iii but you know if its impossible for westerners to reach the orient dont you think it should be the same in reverse. i mean sure the chinese had the money to support a massive fleet at the time, but to make it all the way past the cape of good hope with current tech is a bit impossible dont you think. Nkbeeching (talk) 00:30, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Having the Chinese fleet arrive in Europe might be a bit too much, too soon. Mscoree (talk) 00:46, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. The Ming Dynasty was a huge funder of exploration voyages. Their principle commander, Zheng He, lead the fleets all throughout the Indian and Pacific Oceans. It is even believed he reached North America sometime in otl 1420s. I see no reason why they can't reach Europe.

I find it plausible. As previeouly mentioned, it is believed that Zheng He reached the Americas, Europe is not out of the qeustion.Bowties are Cool (talk) 01:06, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, reaching the americas is not as vast a distance as crossing the Indian ocean, then rounding africa, and then sailing up the same continent, all without ports capable of supplying or supporting such a fleet.

It was difficult for the Portuguese to do it at first, and that was with single ships. Having a massive fleet would have a lot of logistical and supply problems.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:13, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Just going to say, Zheng He did not discover America. The claims that he did all come from one of those "popular history" books and have mostly been debunked IIRC. Fed (talk) 01:18, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Grant, hard evidence supporting a Chinese voyage to North America is scant. Most of it comes from stones found off California congruent with Chinese anchors from the time. But it is believed that the Chinese were more than capable of traversing open ocean to North America.

Treasure ships can have enough supplies to last them a year, if they restock in one of the many ports of the Indian ocean trade network, they may be set for long voyages, however Europeans were attempting to circumnavigate africa since 1425 but only succedded when Vasco de gama did it in 1498...so ya...if they succeded in 1425 then it could have been possible but in 1419...well, treasure ships do have MUCH more supplies, so its'' theoreticaly possible... ''considering Europeans hade MUCH MCUH smaller hulls therefore less supplies(ceveral months max) compared to the YEARS lifespan of Treasure ship food if dried...so maybe but now would be stretching it...but not by much...-Lx (leave me a message) 03:45, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

There is a fleet of over 500 ships, they've failed to circumnavigate Africa twice already but figured out they can get supplies in Mozambique. The supplies there can last a year and the ships are twice the size of European ships in the 16th century that went to the Americas. Massive fleets also mean that they can supply each other. Scandinator (talk)

He did not even make a voyage in the general direction of North America. Quite literally, that "author" is a fraud. So, for that matter, is those "stones."

Zhang He did not reach the Americas. Simple. Even trying to say that he, or any other Chinese explorers, sailed in that direction is an outright lie.

Overall, far too soon for Chinese explorers to be anywhere near Europe.

On the contrary, the Chinese vessels did not have the ability to supply each other. In truth, they consumed far more than their European counterparts.

There is a very good reason why Europeans made it first, even ignoring the Ming shutting down exploration - European ships were far, far, far easier to supply, and resupply. Remember, smaller ships, but also far smaller crews, and far easier to repair/maintain. Sure as heck didn't have to cannibalize ships like the Chinese did on their voyages.

European ships were also much faster, and far more seaworthy. Comparing the Atlantic Ocean to the waters Chinese ships sailed in is like comparing a tiger to a housecat.

Basically, African stops on coastline without ports was feasible with regards to resupplying for the Europeans, but not the Chinese.

Lordganon (talk) 09:52, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

based on what lg stated can we get a rollback on the chinese passing the cape of good hope. Nkbeeching (talk) 18:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, uhm, not sure why LG is getting involved in map games, but since he is pretty much the senior historian of the wikia, I assume we shall follow his judgement?

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:16, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how they could not support each other using the smaller boats. In this ATL the Ming have not had to shut down naval exploration and a naval focus, the Mongols have not attacked nor the Timurids. Considering these ships are built to weather typhoons then its not too hard to imagine them sailing the south Atlantic. And supplying in Mozambique which was a Swahilli trading port, for the voyage to Oyo is plausable. The length and difficulty of the voyage means it is unlikely to occur again in the PM3 ATL in its current form but its just a nice shake up of the old Euro-centric POV. Scandinator (talk) 04:10, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I do try to keep half an eye on the big games, if for no other reason than I can have half a clue in advance when problems are coming. Hence, why almost all of my posts on these talk pages are warnings.

This case, could not stand to see people preaching that bull as fact.

Scan, you can't "support" them with smaller boats. All that really does is shift supplies around the fleet, which does nothing. If you're referring to them sending smaller boats to the coast to try and get supplies, it's still the same problem. A question of scale, if you would - just not possible to get the needed supplies. You'd end up consuming more sitting there gathering them than you would get by gathering more.

The Ming not shutting that down is more or less irrelevant. Solves more or less nothing about the problems with the ships and naval methods.

Actually, they weren't really built to weather typhoons, so to speak. What they were built to do is, in that regard, not take too much damage or sink because of them while sitting at anchor in port. Those ships, imo, have a really bad track record when hitting storms/bad weather while at sea. Heck, they didn't really tend to even be out all that much, by comparison, at that time of year.

The ocean that the Chinese ships normally traveled in is also far shallower than what the western Europeans sailed in. Normal conditions out that way are pretty tame. The Atlantic is not.

With regards to Oyo, they would be incapable of supplying a Chinese fleet with more than water (even that somewhat iffy) on a real level. You're also exaggerating the Swahali trading ports - they were small ports, little more than glorified trading posts. On the edge of the world, so to speak. While they could probably get some supplies there, especially water, the amount would be severely limited.

Lordganon (talk) 08:48, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

New event
Hello, recently i'ben notified that soon I will be traveling for work and apparently I'm going to Manaus, so i will not be present to be posting. So I created an event in my last post, it was something that had already been planned some time ago, but it was not going to give in these conditions, but the general idea of the event remains. Provence will pass through a small crisis of succession, where the lower Angevin line will disappear, and a personal Union is created. I hope that through this can consolidate the Angevin family. I already ask Quashi that he post for me, and not destroy my nation XD, i hope i can come back soon. Mawilda (talk) 04:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Page of the Week/Month
Hi fellow PMIII'ers! I am just wanting to toss around an old idea which has been incubating in my mind (and I am sure that of others, since I got the idea from them) of having a Page of the Week (or Month)!!! This would operate similarly to the wiki-wide TL of the Month, except we would want to keep on top of it.

We can make pages for our nations, our vassals, our colonies  (later on), our wars, our treaties.... so many pages!!! Now, the page of the week could be determined by the mods, or the players, or both (or we could rotate it).

Now, what would this do, should you have the page of the week? Maybe a couple of good mod events, a "Get out of a Mod Event" -free card, or a bonus in the algorithims. That is all up to you... I just wanted to get the idea out there, in order to help encourage development of pages. 08:22, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like the idea of a page of the month, as it motivates people to develop some cool pages. I don't think it would carry a bonus to get out of a mod event or add points to an algorithm however. More like a honor to have than a bonus. Mscoree (talk) 11:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like this idea although I don't think we should reward people with something like that. Maybe only that they have their chance on the max in their next algo, but that should be it. If we give them too useful rewards people will just start making and editing pages in order to get the reward.

I personally like that idea, as some map games have "Pages of the Month", and due to the high amount of pages that spawn off of a Principia Moderni game, I think that there will be no shortage of material. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

Okay so how about we start proposals here? Mscoree (talk) 20:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

We are supposed to nominate pages below, are we?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:51, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Proposals

 * Portugal Family Tree (Principia Moderni III Map Game) (perpetually under construction)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:50, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hesse (Attacker)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Hesse (L) Nassau (LV) Frankfurt (LV) 10/4=3
 * Military Development: 20/3 = 7
 * Economic Development:  16/3 = 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 4
 * Editcount:117
 * UTC time: 08:42
 * 117/64 x pi = 5.74322407
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 16
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: -2

Score: 84

Brunswick-Gottingen (Defender)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Brunswick-Gottingen (L) 4/7=0
 * Military Development: 3/30 = 0
 * Economic Development: 3/30 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 3
 * Motive: (8-5)=3
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0 (1387 - Take over by Burghers)
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals And Puppets: x1.25

Score: 65

Result
84/149 - 0.5 x 2 = <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:30px;line-height:30px;white-space:nowrap;">0.43624161073

<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:30px;line-height:30px;white-space:nowrap;">0.43624161073  x 1.5 (civil disarray bonus) = <span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:30px;line-height:30px;white-space:nowrap;">0.6543624161

Hesse can take 65% of Gottingen's territory, depending from how much the war lasts.

Discussion
Went ahead and tidied this one up, from both formatting and error standpoints. 08:55, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Other errors corrected.Brunswick-Gottingen must be about half your size, so i'd estimate they have half your population, so your bonus is only a two.And population is not like development, meaning that the smaller side does not get 0.And i had to fix the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:56, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

@The half the size part, just wondering if you included Nassau. Also, what do you mean depending on how long the war lasts for the results? Do I get more land if it continues longer, or? Blocky858 (talk) 06:01, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but since Gottingen is in civil disarray, the calculations for war years will be (p)*(1-1/(x)).--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:06, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

So how much land do I get each year? Just add another 9%, or? Also, is it where I need 33.33% land to annex someone or do whatever I want to their government? Or is that a score thing? Blocky858 (talk) 23:34, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

It's like that:If your war lasts 5 years,k the calculations go like;(9)*(1-1/(5))

Which will give out: 7,2%.

The maximum lands you get is 9%, regardless of how much the war lasts.If you want to topple their government, you should declare another war in less than 30 years.Then you join the results of this war with the ones of the other.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:27, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Okay thank you. I just gained a bunch of land so do I will put that in. Blocky858 (talk) 07:38, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

A Question
With Yemen, my former nation, now a part of the Mamluk Sultanate, I'm thinking of choosing a new nation. I wanted to ask if the nation in southern Hokkaido the Ainu nation? If that is so, I've basicly decided between either choosing one of the Rajput states in Northwestern India, the Ainu nation, or the Uesugi clan. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 10:15, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently Yemen is coming free soon. Wait maybe? Up to you.

15:48, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'

I wouldn't bother with india, nova won't let anyone have it and he'll find a way to make your life hell Jbwncster (talk) 16:08, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

If you would wait, you will find that your nation will actually have the revenge of a lifetime...more or less...

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:23, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Another Question
Are there still spaces open in this map game? If so, I would definitely be interested in joining. RevenantAscension (talk) 17:17, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of spaces open. But you should choose your position wisely.

New players are always welcome. Just take a look in the nations list on the main page for a list of still open nations. Mscoree (talk) 20:00, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Go for it. Lots of slots open, expecially if you are inventive. Obviously a lot of the power slots are taken but you could have plenty of room to spread out in, say, Sub-saharan Africa, South America, parts of North America, Oceania. Sky is the limit - although I would caution aginst jumping into Europe at the moment given the situtation. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:25, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Don't bother with India, Nova can't be reasoned with. I quit if nothing is done to make this game better. I can't even have a nation because someone keeps land grabbing and won't listen to anyone. Jbwncster (talk) 03:11, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

So if someone took Tibet how would they protect themselves? Jbwncster (talk) 03:35, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

60 Editors
What. The. Fux. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 03:32, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

PITA! :D We beat the record, so yay. Jump in if you want to. Fed (talk) 03:35, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Ye we have between 59 to 62 at any given time although it may (read: will) drop down to 20 - 30 range.

03:36, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you should stay a while, lol.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:38, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I tried last time but school was too much... I think I will stay this time tho. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 03:44, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Also I found the mod google doc and requested access... are you guys using it? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 04:09, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Of course.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:14, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I have added you to the document. Mscoree (talk) 15:08, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Mod Response for Bavaria
Hey guys. Can a mod please write up a response to this offer I wrote the NPC Pfalz (copied straight from game):

"In dynastic news, Heinrich XVI sends letters to the various lords of Pfalz (with whom Bavaria is linked via dynastic union), offering them assistance in setting up a government. In return, they would accept Heinrich as their true lord under a personal union. ''' Can a mod respond to this, maybe in the next mod events?" '''

I already asked the past few turns but I don't think any mods saw it, so I decided to put it here. Typing up a mod event for 1421 would be fine too.

Thanks!

Cookiedamage (talk) 05:49, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I already asked on the moderator page. I would accept but I need to make sure everyone else is in agreeance first. Mscoree (talk) 11:41, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for responding! Sorry if I sounded pesky, didn't know you needed wider agreement :P Cookiedamage (talk) 00:53, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Impeached
Mscoree has been. I don't know where people got the "supermajority" thing from, but it is not on the Rules Page. To vote a Mod in needs a Supermajority, but to vote them out mentions nothing of the sort, so I assume it is a straight up Majority. In which case, 3 - 2 is a Majority. Ms has been impeached. So... Shouldn't he not be a Mod now? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

I was under the impression that it needs a supermajority, just like the TSPTF. Mscoree (talk) 21:23, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

There is no mention of it, so I don't think it does. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)


 * There should be a sufficient number of moderators at all times.
 * Anyone may comment on a post believed to be implausible, but only moderators may roll them back or cross the post out.
 * Moderators are in charge of inducting new members.
 * Moderators should be active often to inspect moves for historical implausibility.
 * Moderators may cause natural events, revolts.etc. Moderators may cause events affecting all players of a certain region or only players who have expanded implausibly.
 * Moderators may have specific roles, which they are in charge of.
 * Inactive moderators may be removed.
 * Moderators may be impeached. The impeachment procedure can be initiated by any player but must be approved by at least two other mods. Only moderators (minus the one being impeached) can vote on whether the impeached mod will or will not be removed.
 * A moderator may propose that an user be banned from the game, either temporarily or permanently. The moderators will vote upon this.
 * The above can be avoided if an user has broken the rules in a severe way (e.g. sockpuppeting), then the said user can be automatically banned by any moderator.

The bolded rule is the relevant one, and as can be seen, does not require a Supermajority.

Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

That would mean Nova would also need removing, since that vote had a majority against her.

Didn't see that. I guess so, then Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Although not specifically stated in the rules I think a supermajority should be necessary for the same reasons it is used by the TSPTF. Mscoree (talk) 22:31, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

We are not the TSPTF.

22:34, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not just saying this because I voted for ms. I have to say that from what LG explained to me, I think that a supermajority is important. If there is no quorum then anyone can just spam through something. Seems like a logical thing to follow. Tr0llis (talk) 22:39, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

These are not the mods you are looking for.

22:38, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Anyone can just spam through something... Because that has never happened on PM3 before. No one got into Modship by Spamming through... Especially not Ms. Not at all. Not even slightly. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Also, LG was explaining why the TSPTF should vote, not why they should have a supermajority.

22:43, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, he was explaining why it was important for TSPTF votes to be counted separately, not where they should vote at all. Of course they should be able to vote. He talked about a precaution set up, so that TSPTF members had to have a 2/3 vote to ensure that nothing was spammed through. Mscoree (talk) 22:54, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I think it'd be quite a murky act and one that truly stinks to change the rules resulting in a different result than what was voted for. Kunarian TALK 09:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

This isn't really changing the rules. The rules don't state how the voting must be conducted, so I am just proposing that we use the wiki's rules. Seems that would be a fair thing to do, and so far most of the moderators seem to be in agreeance. Some who even voted against me (such as Scraw) wrote in the discussion that we need a supermajority. Mscoree (talk) 16:10, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

If it does not say that it is a supermajority, it is a majority. That is... pretty obvious, TBH. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Also, the page states explicitly in the places where it is a supermajority, and it does not do so here, so it is not relevant.

Nova's Gotta Go!
I don't know why we need to continue to go over this, but Nova's recent behavior should make this clear. She's not mod material and everyone should know this. --Yank 00:56, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. It is a shame that our own head mods cannot realize this.

01:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Based on what? It's my understanding Nova and Jbw worked out their crap.

The fact that it got that bad to begin with should be a sign that Nova simply does not have what it takes to be mod. Nova's abusing her mod powers to further her personal goals, and that should be absolutely unacceptable. Mods should be above harassing other players to get what they want.--Yank 01:40, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Although I'm a neutral player in this feud, I agree with Yankovic, her mod events are bias. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Can you point them out to me?

we didn't settle anything I just gave up cause you can't reason with an immature person. Jbwncster (talk) 04:53, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I havnt made any mod events recently. If you want me gone Yank, make another impeachment attempt. Otherwise, please stop griping on the talk page, its cluttering it up.And I recently tried reconcling with JBW, I offered my nation to replace his, as a peace offering. It wasnt accepted. -Nova 04:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think he rejected cause that's meta as shit.

05:10, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

For God's sake people, can we stop putting up impeachement attempts because of the most inconsequential reasons? The problem between Jb and Nova is being worked on, and honestly this just works to fuel the flames. Fed (talk) 05:20, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't directly set up an impeachment because at this point those tend to fail regardless of how deserving the recipient is. You do realize that your metagaming is one of the reasons why you get nominated for impeachment. And weren't you quitting anyway? --Yank 05:20, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Im not leaving the game. And honestly, I just want this whole mess to be done with. Its caused more issues than its worth, seeing as I have to give up the spoils anyway. -Nova 05:24, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how giving Jbw his country is meta-gaming. And I'm with Nova, this thing should be done with.

Mod response
can someone respond to tibet 1420? Jbwncster (talk) 06:22, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I have replied to it. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Treaty Terms

 * 1) The Ashikaga clan returns all lands conquered after attacking the Shiba, Toki and Hatekeyama daimyos.
 * 2) In order to stop halt the Shogun from trying to start the war again he will submit his navy to the Hosokawa-Kono Clan.
 * 3) The Shogun's army mustn't be stationed near the the daimyos border (atleast 5 miles/kilometres?) for the next 15 years.

Toki, Shiba, Hatekeyama and Emperor (Mod-signed)

 * -Mscoree (talk) 15:41, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I will not begivin up my land that I won fair and square! I will not give up my navy. You are out of your mind. This is the worst treaty I have seen in my life. I would rather give you some of my money and some goods instead of land. - Shadow

First of all, if you don't accept you have 3 angry clans around you waiting to attack. Secondly, because of you messing with Vietnam there is now a chance of Ming China sending military to Japan. Finally, if you don't sign it I can easily as Kampaku get not only the daimyos but the Emperor too against you.

Also my treaty isn't the worst you've ever seen and I am surely NOT out of my mind so please don't insult me.

One, I am not in Vietnam so China is not a problem. Two, I can kick you out of your position any time I want. Three, The Emperor is on my side. Four), I am not giving up my land final. - Shadow

shadow, you cant remove sky from his position without instigating a war with him. at that point youll be dragged into a war you can not win its either accept the treaty or face the lose of your position and lands. and the emperor can choose to side with the kampaku should he wish to. Nkbeeching (talk) 21:03, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Roman Empire
Total: 128.75
 * Location: +20
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Nations: Roman Empire (L) Knights Hospitaller (L), Theodoro (MV) = +5
 * Military Development:
 * Romans: +15
 * Knights: +6
 * Economic Development:
 * Romans: +18
 * Knights: +5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit count: 27
 * UTC: 0*9*4*9 = 324
 * Total: 27/324*pi (3.14159265359) = 0.2617993877991667
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +8 (180,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Achaea
Total: 85
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Achaea (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +2
 * Economic Development: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: +1
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6 (100,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Discussion
Here you go SwankyJ. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

You need to add the motive modifier, and also Roman Empire is joining Quashi (talk) 21:13, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Saved for a later turn, lol. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:23, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

This was for Roman Empire, I was supporting. I edited it and need the finishing touches.

Knights Hospitaller (Attacker)
Total: 77 x 1.25 = 96.25
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Knights Hospitaller (L), Roman Empire (L), Castile (L), Granada (MV), Georgia (M) = 17/4 = 4
 * Military Development: 50/10 = 5
 * Knights: 10
 * Roman Empire: 16
 * Castile: 24
 * Economic Development: 36/6= 6
 * Knights: 0
 * Roman Empire: 14
 * Castile: 22
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: + 12 (aiding oppresed kinsmen, High Morale)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count: 17
 * UTC: 15:49 = 180
 * Total: 17/180*pi (3.14159265359) = 0.296705973
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Knights: +5
 * Romans: +5
 * Castile: -5
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -5
 * Vassals and Puppets: x1.25

Cyrpus (Defender)
Total: 60 x 1.25 = 75
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Cyprus (L)  = 4 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 10
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 9 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Chance:
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Discussion
Correcting many mistakes in the algorythm.Does Cyprus have a player?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

So, this algo is partially wrong still, as I told Ms, who was in charge of the algo, that Trebizond no longer exists and cannot be a part of the algo, and I never once mentioned Theodoro sending troops to this fight. Therefore, unless I am mistaken, which is very possible, we should not get a minus 2 but instead get the 1.25 multiplyer. Also, my motive is not to get land, but to free the Greek population of cyprus from Serfdom, which is a policy that the Latin government of Cyprus supports. I hope this changes things.

As of now, the only thing I have changed is the vassal multiplyer and the vassal minus two. I have no idea how the nations thing would change, so if someone could help with that, I would appreciate it.

Also, just suggesting this, since it is not obvious to me, but the government of Cyprus was not really supported by the Greek population, and in OTL the Latin government had to put down several rebellions. Not sure if that modifyer is already factored in, but I want to hear people's opinion on it.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 17:39, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

First of all you get the x1.25 even if Theodoro was aiding. That modifier is only not used if they are fully in the war (L). Having (MV) is fine. Second, it was my impression (unless I misinterpreted the rules) that only the aid on each side is divided by the other, not all nations per side. The rule state "he aid scores for both sides will be completed, then the larger side will be divided by the smaller one," which I assumed meant military and supply aid, not L. Mscoree (talk) 21:09, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Knights of St John are my Protectorate... I can still easily be involved in this war. (Im Castile and i offered to him 1 or 2 turns ago.) So technically Castile could easily be involved in this algo.

So what is the result? Our score turned out better, so is Cyprus finally declared defeated? SwankyJ (talk) 21:51, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

If it matters, and it's not too late to join, Georgia is also sending supplies to help the Knights' coalition. TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:54, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Cyprus is malmuks ally and you are malmuks ally you should not dare. <font color=Purple face="Algerian">OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Casstille can not help in this becuase the war has started AND there has not been a post of invasion. <font color=Purple face="Algerian">OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Actually Oct, Castile and the Kingdom of Georgia are both allowed to help adding to my attack, so upping the score even more, you lost. You died. SwankyJ (talk) 23:17, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

According to the rules, the way coalitions work is that anyone can join in at any time and leave at any time they so please, so yeah, he can join.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:32, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed the thing with Georgia and the Canaries Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Knights Hospitaller (Attacker)
Total: -- x 1.25 = --
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Knights Hospitaller (L), Roman Empire (L), Castile (L), Granada (MV), Canaries (MV), Georgia (S), Theodoro (MV) = --/-- = --
 * Military Development: --/-- = --
 * Knights: 12
 * Roman Empire: 17
 * Castile: 25
 * Economic Development: 40/-- = --
 * Knights: 2
 * Roman Empire: 15
 * Castile: 23
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: + 12 (aiding oppresed kinsmen, High Morale)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count: 17
 * UTC: 15:49 = 180
 * Total: 17/180*pi (3.14159265359) = 0.296705973
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Knights: +5
 * Romans: +5
 * Castile: -5
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -5
 * Vassals and Puppets: x1.25

Cyrpus (Defender)
Total: --  x 1.25 = --
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Cyprus (L)  = 4 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 10
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 9 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Chance:
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result
So, obviously, not the most unbiased mod here, but since I don't know how the algo averaging works, and the last algo resulted in a victory and we have only gained supporters, I think we can assume that we win again, unless some other faction comes to Oct's aid. Let me know what you think.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:42, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

I crossed the canaries for an obvious reason, but yeah you pretty much fucked up Oct again lol Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Where in the World...
...is northern Mesopotamia? I mean no offense - I'm just genuinely confused as to where these rebellions my doomed glorious kingdom has apparently inspired are happening. I'm currently guessing that "northern Mesopotamia" means the former Emirate of Mosul, which Mesopotamia annexed in 1419 - which I'm interpreting as the light-gray region wedged between Mamluk-teal Mesopotamia, Timurid-red Persia, and the Timurid-red White Sheep Turks on the 1415 map. Is that an acceptable approximation? If not, please let me know ASAP - my plans for this turn hinge on where northern Mesopotamia is relative to me. TankOfMidgets (talk) 01:28, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured out how to read a map. TankOfMidgets (talk) 03:48, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

...I'm assuming the White Sheeps, right? ChrisL123 (talk) 05:33, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Current State of Affairs in PMIII-ville
So, what's going on in the world? I really don't have to have to read through like 1000+ posts to figure it out, so could someone tell me just a very brief outline of what's happening? Like in Europe and Asia. Also, is China inactive? I keep posting things about China and China isn't posting anything back. Thanks y'all PitaKang- My Life for Aiur!  En Taro Tassadar 04:32, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Also, why did PMII end? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 04:35, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

We all voted to end PM2. Generally it was because of ASB and implausibility, which had made the game less fun for many. Mscoree (talk) 04:39, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Two things Pita, I'm currently having connectivity issues with the net. Thus the lack of time to reply to most things since I have to catch the ten second window my internet works in. Two, Korea is my vassal, you can't just grab if without asking or signing. Scandinator (talk) 10:56, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

No rules against taking vassals. Hell, Guns took a vassal of Denmark as his nation. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 15:30, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

I will admit it was my mistake in not signing, however. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 15:32, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Actually Guns quit the game a while ago, and he forgot to remove his name from there. That is supposed to be Crim's. Mscoree (talk) 17:25, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake again. But still, there is no rule against taking control of a vassal, no? Again it was my mistake not to sign up, but I don't see anything wrong with singing up as a vassal. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 23:38, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly, but you have to ask the player of the suzerain nation first.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:53, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm... may I see the rule that states that? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 22:54, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

I understand what you mean Pita, as all the reading of past posts turned me off to PMII after I left early on. Basically Europe is full of wars, as most of the power players are there. Poland-Lithuania took over Muscovy early on, but later got trampled. Naples conquered much of Italy, save the north. The Timurids have their eyes east, on India, conquering in that region, while revolts happen in the west. Oyo is one of the few player nations in Africa and the only one in Sub-Saharan Africa, and they are trying to become Catholic and Europeanized rapidly. Austria is working on creating a tighter HRE, while they fought a war with the Kalmar Union turned United Norse Crown in the north. Castille took over Gibraltar, and the Mamluks are looking to become a major power in the Middle East and Africa. The Golden Horde and Four Oriats (Horde between Mongolia and the Golden Horde) are slowly settling down, and the Golden Horde has pushed west. Venice is a powerful trading power across Europe, but England and the UNC are looking to establish their own trade empires. Holland is expanding and religiously reforming and Byzantium/Eastern Rome continues to hold on, and with the aid of other European nations, is able to take back land from the Ottomans. Two nations in Ireland, Munster and Ulster are expanding, and they have joined the United Kingdoms of Greater Albion, a UK-esque organization with England and Scotland, though tensions do remain. Catholicism has split into Western and Eastern, with Eastern being the traditional form, and Western being the new form that is widespread in the British Isles and Western Europe. Cahokia is expanding heavily in America, as are the Zapotecs. That's basically it. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * Venice is a powerful trading power across Europe <that's me, right there :D Kunarian TALK 20:25, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Just because I'm wondering, how was my summary? <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * Pretty damn good, I want moar. Its great to just have these little moments of recognition when in game a majority of players don't get involved with you. Kunarian TALK 20:41, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Ottomans

 * Location: (15 + 20 + 20)/3 = 55/3 = 18
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacking) + 2 (central coordination) + {[2*2]/3 = 4/3} (high ground - Georgia and Armenia only) = 4.333... ~ 4
 * Nations: Ottomans (L), Golden Horde (M), Georgia (L), Armenia (LV)= 14/10 = 1
 * Military Development: (10 + 2 + 8)/20 = 20/20 = 1
 * Economic Development: (8 + 2 + 3)/16 = 13/16 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: [11 (Ottomans: enforcing political hegemony, non-dem popular government) + 11 (Georgia: liberation of Orthodox Assyrian kinsmen, non-dem popular gov't) + 11 (Armenia: liberation of Orthodox Assyrian kinsmen, non-dem popular gov't)]/3 = 33/3 = 11 (not counting morale/guerilla factors)
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit count: 2528
 * UTC: 4:21 = 8
 * Total: 2527/8*pi (3.14159265359) = 992.350579
 * Nation Age: [5 (Ottomans) - 5 (Georgia: 12 years since independence) - 5 (Armenia: 12 years since independence)]/3 = -5/3 = -2
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1; Ottomans get x1.25 bonus for only fighting with main nation, 25%/3 = 8.333%.
 * Total: 54 * 1.083 = 58.48 ~ 58

Mesopotamians

 * Location: 25+15/2 = 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * Nations: Mesopotamia (LV), Mamluks (L), Cyprus (M) = 10/12 = 0
 * Military Development: 6+14/20 = 1
 * Economic Development: 2+14+6/16= 1
 * Expansion: -5(Mesopotamia)-8(Mamluks) = -13
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: to be explained.claimed 14.
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit count: 2910
 * UTC: 7:47 =
 * Total: 2910/196*pi (3.14159265359) = 46.6430338
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1
 * Total: (39+motive)

Results
Ignore the war algorithm; this war has been resolved by the Treaty of Adana and ended in 1427. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:33, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Sorry about this going on top of the page. This was done on mobile, so it is probably messed up. Please fix it, if you can. 07:00, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Ottoman are being aided by Georgia (M) and Jochid Ulus (M). The economic development, according to the rules, should only add +4 with those city bonuses for the Mesopotamians (Aleppo, Baghdad, Alexandria). Also, where did the -7 motive come from for the Ottomans? We're fighting for territory of similar culture (+5), fighting for political hegemony (+7), I'm supported by the people (+4), and I'd have high troop morale (+5) if my chance is greater than +4. ChrisL123 (talk) 07:11, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

As this is my first time using this algorithm, I'm not sure I understand the rules correctly, but I get the impression that you have to recalculate the algorithm every time someone actually joins the war directly. Is that correct? TankOfMidgets (talk) 07:55, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Also - and without intending to make any accusations about anyone's character - I think it'd be best if we got a moderator from outside our region to run the numbers on this. That way, regardless of how the war ultimately turns out, no one can complain about the outcome being "biased." TankOfMidgets (talk) 08:07, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

And while I'm at it, how about we wait until the aforementioned mods show up and determine the war's final outcome before we go around dictating the "results" of an unfinished conflict? Because retroactively applying the results of 2 years of war seems a bit much to me. TankOfMidgets (talk) 08:12, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Two things: 1. I am on mobile, so it is kind of difficult for me to get into any real discussions. 2. I fixed the military aid issues, and the economic bonus of 9 comes also from the Red Sea, Mogadishu, and Mombasa bonuses (which my states control, and have been accepted in the past).

As for motive, how can you be popularly supported when you are getting sparked this badly??? Would your people support lengthening of an aggressive war which you are getting DESTROYED in? You have low morale, because you meet that motive's criterion. You also only get one main motive, which is economic (you want land). Finally, I am waging a guerrilla war. 08:27, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I will be tomorrow night. As for the current war, the algo is correct by my full understanding. Until then, 08:34, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I'd contest some of your judgments here - most notably, that it's a bit difficult to fight a guerilla war when you're advancing into enemy territory - but as I'm about to force you to recalculate your algorithm anyway, it seems like overkill. I'll probably add this to my list of orders tomorrow morning (it's past 3 AM here, and I need some sleep), but I'll post this now, before the chance totals are calculated and the outcome of the conflict is actually decided, to demonstrate that I intended to join the war before learning who won:

'''When word of the ongoing Assyrian genocide reaches T'bliisi, a furious King Giorgi immediately mobilizes the entire Georgian army and declares war on Mesopotamia; the Georgian logistical train suffers due to the lack of preparation time, but the King will brook no delays. While there is some doubt as to whether the Ottomans or the Mamluks committed the atrocity, the Georgians decide that securing northern Mesopotamia will stop the slaughter regardless. The Armenians, with whom Georgia has formed a dynastic union, are called into war by the Georgians.'''

Here are these two nations' stats and the motives I intend to use, for the record:

Georgia: Capital close (+15), Attacking (+1), Coordination (+2), High Ground (+2 - debatable, I will try and get heights to justify this tomorrow), Leader (+4), Development (6 military, not counting this turn's as it's canceled by my DoW; 4 economic = +12/+8 to the relevant scores), Motive (liberating oppressed religious kinsmen = +7; non-democratic gov't supported by people = +4, guerilla war -5; total +6), possible High Morale (Georgian infrastructure > Mesopotamian/Mamluk infrastructure; base motive > 5; would add +5); Young Nation (independence from Timurids in 1411 = 11 years old; -5); Population 364,431 (don't know your pop, can't give pts.); no war/expansion penalty (only gave supplies to Venetians, no military aid); no vassal/puppet penalty or bonus (fighting alongside Armenia, not exclusively main nation).

Armenia: Capital close (+15), Attacking (+1), Coordination (+2), High Ground (+2 - debatable, I will try and get heights to justify this tomorrow), Leader (+4), Development (4 military, 4 economic = +8/+8 to the relevant scores), Motive (liberating oppressed religious kinsmen = +7; non-democratic gov't supported by people = +4, guerilla war -5; total +6), possible High Morale (Armenian infrastructure > Mesopotamian/Mamluk infrastructure; base motive > 5; would add +5); Young Nation (independence from Timurids in 1411 = 11 years old; -5); Population 346,209 (don't know your pop, can't give pts.); no war/expansion penalty; no vassal/puppet penalty or bonus.

This post was completed at 09:27 UTC, and was my 27th edit. TankOfMidgets (talk) 09:28, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Corrections in many places.Since the war started in 1420, only development from 1404 to 1419 will be counted.Coincidentally, you started playing in 1404.

So,You didn't post in 1417, which means that you can only have 28 points at max for the Mamluks.Since Mesopotamia only appeared in 1411, it would only have 9 turns worth of development.Since you didn't post for three turns, this number is reduced to six.Since you developed nothing in Mesopotamia in 1411 and in 1414, this number is reduced to four.from those, you only developed economically once, in 1419, and of all the other turns, you expanded your military three times.Aside from that, you expanded directly as Mesopotamia in 1412, 1413 and 1419 and expanded by vassalization (because it still counts as expansion) in 1416 and 1413.

As to the Mamluks, you expanded directly in 1404 and 1405, expanded by vassalization in 1405, 1406, 1407 (in which you vassalized two states at once, 1412 and 1414.

And as for the Ottomans, they didn't post in 1406, 1408, 1412, 1413, 1418 and 1419.

And please, explain how did you obtain the motive scores.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:05, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The motive scores are very wrong. So are the development scores (I don't see how would he get 11 points). Also, if Georgia and Armenia are joining the war, that needs to be factored in. I don't want to, given that I'm involved and I might appear biased. Fed (talk) 17:41, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course.And the 9 is because pf the sum of the 2 with the alleged 9 in bonus that he has.Of course, since he lost Mombasa and Mogadishu by mod event, and maybe the Red Sea opening, he'd only have a 3 or 6.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:27, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

I am placing this war on hold. This algo is totally f*cked up and needs to be fixed immediatley. -Nova 18:20, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, i already kind of fixed it.It used to be a lot worse before i touched it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:27, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Cyprus is helping its ally the malmuks because the king thinks that if the Ottomans win the catholics cannot go safely into Juerslum. <font color=Purple face="Algerian">OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Cyprus doesn't exist anymore. Mscoree (talk) 20:42, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Ottomans are invading Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq), not the Holy Land. ChrisL123 (talk) 20:44, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

If catholics cannot go safely to Jerusalem with the Ottomans, the Mamluks would make it equally, if not more, unsafe.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:11, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

CYPRUS IS GONE Jbwncster (talk) 22:35, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

no jb u r really funny, one of your greatest aspects. Cyprus and Malmuks have a safe catholics deal. <font color=Purple face="Algerian">OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

You do realize that the Mamluks have openly declared their intent to genocide the Christian Assyrians? Because you seem to be fighting this war on the logic that the Ottomans are a bigger threat to Christianity than the Mamluks, which doesn't really make sense in light of the aforementioned declaration.

Of course, if you're fighting this war because the Ottomans are a bigger threat to Catholics than the Mamluks, you might possibly be right... but I feel obligated to point out that neither the Papacy nor your Catholic subjects are likely to be overly impressed by that logic, O mighty "Crusader" king. TankOfMidgets (talk) 22:47, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

I agree as well, the Mamluks are a much more poseable threat to Christianity than the Ottomans. I will be joining the Kingdom of Georgia sense they are a Eastern Orthodox nation, mainly the fact that they are Christian at all. SwankyJ (talk) 23:20, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Georgia welcomes the famous and noble Knights of St. John to the battlefront, and offers the Grandmaster whatever supplies and assistance he may need in his campaign of liberation. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:48, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

You do not know about the genocide!!! Every nation on earth thinks that the Ottomans killed the Christians, the State went to great lengths to make this clear. Furthermore, Mesopotamia is not a vassal, rather independently governed in a PU. 07:09, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

One more thing -- my post about the massacre was actually crossed out. Therefore, I never committed the genocide and Georgia/Armenia cannot plausibly join in the war. 07:15, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

It was crossed out because your whole post was claiming victory before its confirmation.that didn't happen, because the algorythm that said you had won was wrong in just about everything except participation.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:56, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

I tried to make it as clear as I could in my war declaration that - regardless of what actually happened - I'm using it as an excuse to liberate northern Mesopotamia. Either you tried to repress the Assyrians, and I need to liberate them from you, or you failed to protect them from the Ottomans... in which case, I (being a good, Christian ruler) clearly need to liberate them from you and protect them myself. The only thing a successful "blame the Ottomans" strategy would accomplish is maybe stopping me from making a coalition with them... but I can assure you that Georgia's royal propagandists heralds are hard at work convincing my population that we have always been at war with Eurasia you're responsible for the Assyrians' misery, because that's the story that better suits my geopolitical goals. TankOfMidgets (talk) 15:06, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

A mod event stated that "Protests begin in the mostly Assyrian North Mesopotamia, with the Assyrians wanting their own Christian kingdom as they have seen the success of independent, Christian Armenia and Georgia." So the Georgians can easily join the war to ensure this region is stable from the Mesopotamians, it's not implausible. Not sure why they were removed from being a leader in the coalition. I'm assuming that St. John will still be sending aid? ChrisL123 (talk) 21:00, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

In light of Collie's comment above explaining why your post was invalidated, I've restored my nations as leaders and recalculated the equations accordingly. Thanks, Chris, for pointing that out. Word of advice, Rex: next time you decide to change my half of the algorithm, get a mod's approval first. TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:39, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

While waiting for this conflict to be resolved, I went ahead and added the Ottoman coalition's claimed motive scores and redid the nation ages for ease of moderator calculations. Chris, let me know if I've made false assumptions about your motives; mods, let me know if I'm claiming anything that I can't support.

I'd also like to ask a few questions about issues that confuse me a bit on the algorithm scoring: No hurry on responding - we seem to be fairly deadlocked anyway. TankOfMidgets (talk) 03:39, February 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Do Dynastic Union and/or Personal Union states count as vassals? I'm assuming they both do.
 * 2) Can you claim the x1.25 score bonus if you're fighting with multiple nations that are unified rather than vassalized/puppetized? Or is it exclusively restricted to one-nation-per-player? I'm assuming the latter rule is in effect here, which is why I didn't claim the bonus for myself.
 * 3) What thresholds are there for "government/war supported by people?" I'm guessing it's a subjective, mod-determined value rather than an objective one.
 * 4) Is equality in development fields enough to claim the high morale bonus? I'm assuming not. If not, does infrastructure count for determining superior development for that bonus? I'm still assuming it doesn't.

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, February 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, they count.
 * No.
 * 1) I don't know.
 * 2) I also don't know.

I went ahead and added the high ground bonus for Georgia and Armenia (Tbliisi's lowest point is 380m; Yerevan is 989m; Cairo is 23m and Baghdad is 34m). It only changed the equation by 1 point, but it's there. On a related note: curse you, rounding functions! TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:32, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

As Rex hasn't posted lately, it'd be a big help if a neutral party could step in and finish his half of the algorithm. The war's reached turn 4, and it's a bit hard to describe it or make plans for the future when I don't know the outcome of the fighting. TankOfMidgets (talk) 03:51, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

BTW, can somebody please explain to me how does the Mamluks get a 10 in economic development? Fed (talk) 03:57, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I think the logic behind that was [16/13 = 1] (Development) + 3 (Red Sea) + 2 (Alexandria) + 1 (Aleppo) + 1 (Mombasa) + 1 (Mogadishu) = 9, with another point getting thrown in from somewhere - rounding, maybe.

The thing is that the rules say you "get economic bonus points for controlling crucial trade routes and locations"... right beneath the section that says you get "+2 for each turn dedicated to improving the economy in the last 15 years."

Which means the equation should probably be [16 (Development) + 3 (Red Sea) + 2 (Alexandria) + 1 (Aleppo) + 1 (Mombasa) + 1 (Mogadishu)]/13 = 24/13 ~= 2 rather than 10. There's also the fact that the Mamluks lost control of Mombasa and Mogadishu by mod event while this war raged, and debatably lost the Red Sea Opening (depends if you need control of the southern short of not - if you don't, they still have it.)

That being said, I'm not going to change his side of the algorithm without explicit mod approval - given that I complained about it earlier in this discussion, I'd rather not make myself a hypocrite over this issue. -- TankOfMidgets (talk) 04:41, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

What do you think the Mamluk-Jalayrid motive should be?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:46, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

For the Mamluks, I'd say aiding an ally: they're in this war to defend their vassal Mesopotamia, but as they're not defending their own land per se, I don't think any of the land-defense motives apply. I would say that the Mamluk government is still supported by its people - we haven't heard of any uprisings in Egypt, after all, so the Mamluk Sultanate itself is still stable.

For the Jalayrids/Mesopotamia, it's a bit more complicated, and dependent on whether Assyrian/Kurdish northern Mesopotamia counts as "heartland" territory. If it's not, then the Mesopotamian motive is defending non-heartland territory held for more than 20 years; if it is, then their motive should be defending heartland territory from a non-fatal attack (as my coalition has neither the will nor the ability to take all of Mesopotamia). I'd also say that the Mesopotamians should get the "war not supported by people" penalty, in light of the Assyrian/Kurdish (are the Kurds still rebelling?) unrest - it's not enough to constitute a full loss of support for the government, but the fact that the Assyrians are fleeing to the invading countries rather than from them suggests which side of the war they'd rather be on.

Assuming all these motives are acceptable, the calculations should provide the following result if I've done the math right:

Motive: [5 (Mamluks' motive: aiding an ally) + 4 (Mamluk non-dem popular gov't) + [5 or 8] (Mesopotamian motive: either defending non-heartland territory held over 20 years or defending heartland territory from a non-fatal attack) + 4 (Mesopotamian non-dem popular gov't) - 2 (Mesopotamian war non supported by people)]/2 = [16 or 19]/2 = 8 or 9.5 ~ 10

Also, a couple of minor points: as Cyprus was conquered by the Knights Hospitaller last turn, and has thus far not re-entered the war, does Cyprus now count as withdrawn from the war? If so, that would raise my side's nation score by 1 (14/10 = 1.44 ~= 1 --> 14/9 = 1.55 ~= 2) and our overall score by 2 (54 * 1.083 = 58.48 ~= 58; 55 * 1.083 = 59.65 ~= 60).

Finally (and my apologies for asking so many questions!), how are we going to resolve the territory changes at the end of the war? -- TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:18, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so I am back from mobile, and I will now be able to really argue my points. Prepare yourselves... 22:16, February 26, 2014 (UTC)



Ok, so here is what I was thinking....I will concede defeat at the hands of the coalition. The following map will be the official map of all holdings for all parties. involved in the war. The algo will be disregarded. Instead, the

Ottomans will gain all lands that were in contention (Dulkadir and the Turkomen) as well as the secure claims on Erzincan and be granted Mardin.

Armenia will gain Azerbaijan, Leks, Avars, Dido, and Ossetia.

Mamluk expansion will be recognized, and the mod events of 1419 will be invalidated. (They were implausible, as explained by myself and Viva, and then promised to be corrected by Ms.) In addition, Tekke will be recognized as owned by Cicilia, not the Hospitallers. (It isn't plausible for the Christian knights to take them in one year.

In addition, the Mamluks will cede 50% of all economic boons for 30 years (This means, I will give you the economic bonuses from Mogadishu, Mombasa, Red Sea Opening, Alexandria, Aleppo, and Baghdad for 15 years). The Mamluks will also be forced into defensive alliances with the Ottomans and the Georgians, while the Ottomans and Georgians will only have to agree to a Non-Agression Pact.

The Mamluks also promise to grant the Assyrian/Chaldean/Babylonian Christians their own nation, near OTL Mosul. It will be merely a puppet state, with minor oversight by the Mamluks. All Muslims currently there will be requested to relocate, and the Georgians will be able to have oversight over the new state.

22:46, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Only thing I will point out, as an outside observer, is the Tekke issue. Technically they can, as the state was disorganized and therefore could not mount any effective resistance. It's in the rules, and as such it is valid.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:57, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to agree, but I need time to evaluate the provisions in detail, this turn's deadline is in an hour, and I'd like to grab some grub before I start analyzing the viability of each point. So I'd like to extend a provisional cease-fire between all parties to this war while we hash out the points of the peace treaty. -- TankOfMidgets (talk) 23:13, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

MP, Tekke is 3x the size of the Hospitallers. In addition, I expanded there prior to the turn of the Hospitallers. Finally, it is crazy to think they would let themselves be taken over by Crusaders, so they would welcome the Cicilians (their ethnic, religious, and cultural counterparts) over the Hospitallers. I would be happy to let him have a small part of the region. 23:29, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

As for you, ToM, come onto chat once you consider it, and I'll make it worth your time. 23:32, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Rex, the rules clearly state that any nation can expand into any disordered nation by 200 pixels a turn. Tekke is less than that, and as such the Knights can expand into it. And regarding the ethnic population, I think they might not want to be a part of you. There are Armenians, Greeks, and Turks down there. Two of those are christians and the Turks would more likely than not align with the Ottomans.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:03, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

MP, ok, that is all great and everything... but I expanded into Tekke first. My post was first, so I did it first. Tekke is a Muslim state, as is Cicilia. Both are primarily Turkish/Armenian. Cicilia expanded there first, not the Hospitallers. 00:09, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

See this: Treaty of Adana (Principia Moderni III Map Game). 01:58, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I've seen, and added a counter-proposal on that page. Jump on chat if you're free and we'll talk. -- TankOfMidgets (talk) 02:17, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

central asian alliance (name up for debate)
would it be plausible to have a central asian alliance type thing for military and/or trade near tibet and the surrounding nations? Jbwncster (talk) 23:32, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. They pretty much all hate each other. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 19:37, February 25, 2014 (UTC) What about all the former and current Khan countries? <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;">  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)

Nope. The Khan countires if you havnt noticed have been warring with eachother. You have a better chance of the Detroit Lions winning the superbowl 5 years in a row. -Nova 20:09, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Won't be able to post tonight as bavaria
Hey guys I wont  be able to post tonight as bavaria. If anyone can post for me please mention it under this topic and i'll give you permission. Thanks a lot guys! :) 70.192.72.11 20:53, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

forgot to log in whoops :p Cookiedamage (talk) 21:27, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

I can post for you. Do you want me to just post the same turn you wrote for the previous turn? Mscoree (talk) 23:35, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Korea
Alright, I have just found out that I cannot take control of a vassal of another nation. I apologize Scandinator, although please note I was unaware of that rule. I hope I haven't offended you too much. Effective now, I take control of Brittany and relinquish Korea. Thank you! PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 23:03, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

No problem! Good luck with Brittany and apologies for booting you into the melee in Europe! Scandinator (talk) 09:27, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Draka
Far be it for me to criticize plauisbility, but why is there a South African supernation taking over half of India and the Mid East?

00:01, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Draka isn't from South Africa. It is basically the renamed Timurads, and basically only controlls OTL Timurad territory and northern India. Whether they can hold onto all of that though is another matter, and I believe some moderator events and actions by the player have already been planned to eventually collapse/reform this large nation. Mscoree (talk) 00:08, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Ahh, ok. Can I ask why the Timurids have been named after an SM Stirling novel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Domination

00:10, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

I asked Nova the same thing when I saw it the other day. It's a tribute to Stirling from what she tells me. Mscoree (talk) 00:16, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

it's deriative. And insanely implausible. What are you mods doing? ... cocaine?

00:28, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I just noticed the entire "Draka" BS... I don't think it's not allowed per se, but it is frowned upon. If Battle for Earth can have Star Wars stormtroopers called Regenetech, Nova can have his (her?) Dominion of Draka. It is very impluasible though. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 01:24, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Easy guys. It was just a tribute to Stirling, as his books are interesting regardles of there plausibility, and as youve noticed, Ive returned to Timurids. Its not as if I was going to try and take over the planet. Id be slaughtered. That and the King is named Draka, so it wouldve ended after Draka died and returned to Timurids.

-Nova 20:05, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

Still, I don't think that's allowed/plausible.

Pita, just want to say that some German soldiers were also called stormtroopers.

21:45, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know the Germans had clones, battle droids, star destroyers, and Death Stars too. Man, they must have been busy trying to win that war. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:02, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

I'm just saying that there have been instances like this before. The entire Battle for Earth map game franchise is a giant nerdgasm where people pit their favorite sci-fi universes against each other with different names. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 02:16, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Mod Responses
I think when Mods respond to player events they should leave their name so we know who's criticizing our post. Anyone else think the same? It's like the judges at Sochi, who were allowed to vote anonymously so were able to give a 0 to Kim Yuna. Anonymity creates corruption. Not that I'm saying it's a big problem here. It's just a mod recently made a mistake on my post and it would be helpful to know who he/she is. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 02:10, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

We have a few dedicated ASB sniffers that run around catching what mods dont catch and reporting it. Sorry if i came off like an asshole ive just been reporting everything i see as ASB or implauso. Dont take it personally please :(

Good idea Pita... I'll bring it up on the mod page, if you haven't already that is. And maybe have the mod events tagged? I'm all for it (although as the bringer of chaos I think a lot of people will criticize me for it...) Scandinator (talk) 09:29, February 25, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. It sets up some accountability for actions. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 02:17, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Royal Marriages
How do they affect nations and how do they affect vassalization and annexing and war and invading nations? This hasn't been really clear. <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)

Well uhh... Let's look at an example. There are two nations. Nation A and Nation B. Leader A has a son and Leader B has a daughter.

If son A marries daughter B and Leader B dies, daughter B inherits the kingdom and through extent so does her husband. Once the two have a child he will be Leader of both nation A and nation B, effectively uniting two nations. I think... 17:35, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Healing the Schism
So, reflecting a possible scenario discussed on chat, I thought we could possibly bring this issue forward to the community in order to see what they think.

So, as the title suggests, this concerns the mending of the East West Schism between the Roman Catholic Church of the West and the Eastern Orthodox Church of the East. With the recent resurgence of the Orthodox church under the Roman Empire and the recent troubles of the Catholic church, it could be conceivable that the two could try to reconcile differences between them in order to face their threats together, some of which include the Muslims in the Middle East and the "heretical" Albion church.

And so, Quashi and I were bouncing some ideas around in chat about how to do this, and we thought of some ideas. I will list them below. I would like to know what you think. Alright, those are my basic ideas for the political reconciliation. I know not much about the religious differences, but this is a start. Let me know what you think.
 * The two heads of the churchs will become part of a Pentarchy (named in reference to the Pentarchy of old) that at this time will only comprise the two leaders of these churchs. Over time, if more classical Pentarchy cities are reclaimed by Christianity, they may join as well, or if a city is important enough it can join the Pentarchy as well.
 * The two leaders will be de facto equal, but the Pope of Rome will be de jure superior, due to the idea of Rome being the "First among Equals."
 * Each will have a title of "Patriarch" of their respective city.
 * The two leaders will meet at times of crisis or controversy in order to find common resolutions that will be acceptable to the two churchs.
 * Regarding the power of the Roman Emperor over the Patriach of Constantinople, the Emperor will be forbidden from intervening in such meetings in order to find a purely spiritual conclusion.

On a side note, this may mean that we need no Reformation, since we will have a united church in the south and the Albion church in the north.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 02:56, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

This may prevent the reformation as we know it, but Albion's separation may eventually lead to a different reformation in the west. Sounds interesting to me. Mscoree (talk) 03:00, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah MP we have these crazy nutters in England, France, and the Netherlands going off to make their own churches.

03:21, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

We ain't any more crazy you and Scan were in PM2, AND SCAN WAS ITALY, which should've stayed catholic. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Considering Venice invaded the Papal States in PM2 and booted the pope to Avignon, nope. The Italian Church is best church!. Scandinator (talk) 07:45, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

yeah the netherlander nutters are breaking away from the roman catholic church no matter what. seeing as the reapporachment still does not cover the fundamental issues of the church. Nkbeeching (talk) 17:29, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ye what Scan said also Avignon collapses on itself so everyone flocked to Germanic. So plz, it's not like we were making three new churches when three were currently in operation.

22:41, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I have my own fun Reformation events that will soon be racking the Middle East... Not to mention republicanism and other things typically not associated with the Middle East. I intend to secularize, relatively, so it'll be interesting to see how things turn out in the West. 23:26, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Japan and The Timurids
Seeing how Japan is becoming overcrowded (Shadow, Ratc and probably soon enough Scan) and seeing how Nova is planning to leave the wiki the Timurids will be an open spot. So I'm asking if I can switch from Hosokawa to Timurids. 16:35, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Go ahead and take the Timurids. Hosokawa will become an NPC. -Nova 16:37, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough SwankyJ (talk) 21:23, February 26, 2014 (UTC)     but I dont decide.

Is Shadows Last Post Plausible?
Its in 1425 turn, tell me if he is plausible or not, as he will not stop challengin me and the parts I crossed out. -Nova 18:09, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

No, it isn't.but seriosuly, no matter how implausible his post is, he keeps arguing viciously with everybody who contests the plausibility of his post.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:24, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Could I just add something? Better say yes cause I'm doing it anyways. Shadow has been implausible nearly every single turn. You should at least give him some sort of punishment cause he obviously doesn't learn anything out of you crossing his turns out. 20:29, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I am not implausible at all, I will stop all of this crap you say I am doing ok. No need to ban me for this. - Shadow

You have made the same implausible turn after Nova already crossing it out multiple times (i.e. the building of six ships). Just saying. 14:11, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

State of PMIII Address
I was wondering if we could create a State of PMIII Address every month, basically outlining the events of the past month in game for those who don't read many posts, or are new and are not looking to go through archives of posts. I believe they should be not long, but short enough to outline in detail the past events. Any comments? <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

This is something that the moderators could possibly arrange. Sounds like a good idea and could be a useful tool to inform people of important announcements. Mscoree (talk) 22:11, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Good idea Quashi (talk) 23:50, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I personally thought of this because I never rejoined PMII after I left because of all the reading and catching up I had to do. This will help immensely. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

This would definitely be a good idea. I'll support it. Cookiedamage (talk) 06:01, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Brittany
May I be added to the map? Please note that I have just absorbed Penthièvre. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 01:02, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Tekke
So in 1414, the Mamelukes posted that Cicilia expanded into Tekke fully annexing its government, this isn't allowed, right? -- SwankyJ (talk) 01:05, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

No. i think that Tekke is already being controlled by some other player, and even if it wasn't he would need a war.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Collie, Swanky was a bit misleading in what he said. Firstly, nobody was playing as Tekke when Cicilia expanded into the unorganized state. Swanky said "annexing its government," but seeing as how it was unorganized, it could not have a government.

As your fellow mod, MP, said, "Rex, the rules clearly state that any nation can expand into any disordered nation by 200 pixels a turn. Tekke is less than that". So, I was able to expand 200 pixels into Tekke, and effectively annex it as a result of taking all of its land by expansion into an unorganized state. 08:47, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Then why were the Knights controlling them, then?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:58, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I, my bad, failed to remove the state of Tekke from the list of nations. As such, I can only assume that Swanky was under the impression that he controlled those states. I was actually posting mobilely during that time period, so I informed him as soon as I could access chat.

I also did not read any posts other than my own, and as such I was unable to detect his claims. It was a misunderstanding, but now that he is gone, I wish my claims to be the only legitimately recognized claims. Thanks, 22:24, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Brittany (Attacker)
Total: 65+TBD
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1+2+0= 3
 * Nations: Brittany (+4)= 4
 * Military Development: (TBD)
 * Economic Development: (TBD)
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: (TBD)
 * Motive: Economic (+3), taking territory of smiliar (+5), non-democratic government (+4), Morale (TBD)= +9+TBD
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 8928
 * UTC: 1*3*1= 3
 * Total: 8930/3*pi (3.14159265359) = 9351.47413219 =7
 * Nation Age: Mature nation (+5)= 5
 * Population: Digits (+5), More population (+2)= 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Maine (Defender)
Total: 67+TBD
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Maine (L+4) = 4
 * Military Development: TBD
 * Economic Development: TBD
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +5
 * Motive: Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack (+9)= 9
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: Mature nation (+5)= 5
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

TBD

Discussion
This is my planned invasion of Maine... can a mod help me? Since I wasn't here, will my nation count as having done theh NPC military/economy/infrasturucture development thing? And can a mod whose experienced in this algo see if everything I have done up to here is correct? Thanks. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 02:02, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Since you are not an NPC I believe you have to start from zero and start expanding. I could be wrong about that, and it could be that you start the game with NPC values. As for Maine the NPC rule should apply to them based on yours. I will look over the algorithm, although I ask that a few others look it over since I am not the best at algorithms. 02:18, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you start with the NPC values,a nd then add the player values as time goes on.and plus, wasn't Maine controlled by a player nation?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:05, February 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay so he gets whatever the NPC values would be, plus his development as a player. Mscoree (talk) 11:33, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

i think maine is part of france or part of Provence and anjou. and Pita don't war with me. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Ming (Attacker)

 * Location: ~21.5
 * ​Ming: 15
 * Korea: 20
 * Hosokawa: 20
 * Oda: 25
 * Toki: 25
 * Takeda: 20
 * Kamakura: 20
 * Isshiki: 25
 * Kamakura: 20
 * Hatakeyama: 20
 * Shiba: 25
 * Tactical Advantage : 3
 * Nations: Ming (L), Korea (LV), Haixi Jurchens (MV), Tainan (SV), Hosokawa (L), Oda (L), Toki (L), Takeda (L), Kamakura (L), Isshiki (L), Kamakura (L), Hatakeyama (L), Shiba (L) : 46/32 = ~1.5
 * Military: 11+0+13+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3/35 = 1.5
 * Economy: 0+11+1+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3/25 +4 = 5.5
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Chance: 7
 * Opponent Edit Count: 385
 * UTC time: 9:24
 * Chance: 385/72*pi=16.798794050445422177890523646703
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 9.5 +5 (troop morale high) =14.5 
 * ​Ming: 11
 * Korea: 7
 * Hosokawa: 9
 * Oda: 9
 * Toki: 10
 * Takeda: 9
 * Kamakura: 9
 * Isshiki: 10
 * Kamakura: 9
 * Hatakeyama: 10
 * Shiba: 10
 * Age: 3
 * Ming: 0
 * Korea: 0
 * Hosokawa: 5
 * Oda: -5
 * Toki: 5
 * Takeda: 5
 * Kamakura: 5
 * Isshiki: 5
 * Kamakura: 5
 * Hatakeyama: 5
 * Shiba: 5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 9+20=29
 * Vassals & Puppets: -3
 * Total =  91.5

Ashikaga Shogunate (Defender)

 * Location: 20.5
 * ​Ashikaga: 25
 * Ouchi: 20
 * Amago: 20
 * Yamana: 20
 * Akamatsu: 20
 * Shimazu: 20
 * Kikuchi: 20
 * Shoni: 20
 * Otomo: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 1
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L), Ouchi (L), Amago (L), Yamana (L), Akamatsu (L), Shimazu (L), Kikuchi (L), Shoni (L), Otomo (L): 32/42 = 0
 * Military: (11+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3)/52 = 0 
 * Economy: (1+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3)/36 +1 = 1
 * Infrastructure: (0+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3)/1 = 24
 * Chance: 3
 * Opponent Edit Count: 2324
 * UTC time: 21:17
 * Chance: 2324/14*pi=521.5043804959056775847988016244
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 7-5 (troop morale low due to lower scores in both development categories) = 2
 * ​Ashikaga: -8
 * Ouchi: 9
 * Amago: 9
 * Yamana: 9
 * Akamatsu: 9
 * Shimazu: 9
 * Kikuchi: 9
 * Shoni: 9
 * Otomo: 9
 * Age: 3
 * ​Ashikaga: 5
 * Ouchi: 0
 * Amago: 5
 * Yamana: 0
 * Akamatsu: 5
 * Shimazu: 5
 * Kikuchi: 5
 * Shoni: 0
 * Otomo: 5
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 8
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total = 69*1.25 =  86.25 

Results

 * ((y/(y+z))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((91.5/(91.5+86.25))*2)-1*(1-1/(8))
 * 0.02953586497890295358649789029536*(7/8)
 * 2.5844%
 * Ming China annexes all outlying Japanese Islands controlled by the defending side. Other Daimyos reclaim lands from the Ashikaga. The Ashikaga coastline is layed waste to. Overall confidence in the Shogun falls further.

Discussion
This should be a flawless algorithm. If there are problems can I be notified of them? Scandinator (talk) 12:58, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

You forgot to add the Shiba clan to yourself. They've been Hosokawa allies and should be against the shogun too. 13:09, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Okie dok. Scandinator (talk) 15:52, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Also I as Hosokawa ruled both Hosokawa and Kono. They were connected through a ruler (his regent to be exact)

Does this mean that I lost all of my land and can't play as the Ashikaga anymore. - Shadow

You only lost 2.5844%. You need to lose atleast 33% or 34% to lose as far as I recall.

Hailstormer
It frustrates me that Hail can expand so fast and still have the gall to call any attempt to slow his overly-speedy expansion "god-modding". --Yank 17:37, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

I just noticed that... how the hell did he get his nation all over the Midwest that fast? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 22:00, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

I agree.

02:12, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

It has much to do with the fact that even then North America was sparely populated, and much of the region controlled by Hail was dominated by a single super-culture that collpased shortly before Europeans arrived in the region. Most of the natives are located along the more fertile East Coast. Besides, Hail is expanding according to mod-sanctioned events, and hasn't done anything implausible as far as I have been able to find. Everything he has done thus far has been entirely within the reasonable limitations of the Cahokian civilization. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:39, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Just because they were "mod sanctioned" doesn't mean that they should have happened. Giving Hail the ability to gobble territory ridiculously fast isn't something a plausible map game should do. And now because of how huge his "vassals" are he's going to need to spend most of the upcoming century trying to get them back.--Yank 22:23, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Genetics
Is it plausible to have someone discover basic genetics at this point? It doesn’t take technology to notice such things, just a sharp mind. By basic I mean Mendel-level study where they grow plants and record traits. Nothing more than that. Thanks! PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 21:47, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'll take the silence as approval and have Hansen de Vois discover Mendel's Laws 400 years before OTL :) PitaKang- My Life for Aiur!  En Taro Tassadar 01:31, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I believe there is a rule that inventions/discoveries need to be roughly fifty years early at max than from OTL. Mscoree (talk) 01:33, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

But really, basic genetics like this isn't useful at all practically; and anyone could have discovered it earlier if they were smart enough. Of course, Mendel was helped out by Darwin and others he built on, but I feel like anyone could really have thought about this if they had been interested. I don't know, if the rest of the mods say I can't I'll retract it. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 02:07, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Ms is right. Discoveries cannot be this far removed from their place in OTL. Cour *talk* 02:09, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

All right, I'll post something next year about how de Vois was killed in a tragic monastary fire. :) PitaKang- My Life for Aiur!  En Taro Tassadar 13:18, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Can I Choose A New Nation Please
I am f*cked in japan, because of the war with Ming China. Ming China will attack me again and I will lose anyway. So to make it easier I will give my land to Ming China and choose a new nation. - Shadow

Language please. I fixed it to make it (slightly) less obscene. This is a high quality map game, not one for punks who cannot watch their toungue. Thanks, 22:43, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that. - Shadow

What Rex said. Why do you think I quit? (Sorry, but this was just perfect..)

23:24, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

I am not a quiter like you guys no offence. I still want to play, but as a different nation - Shadow

There have been a few requests like this lately. I thought the rule was that you were not allowed to switch unless your nation was destroyed. It may very well have changed, but that was the last that I had heard of it. Cour *talk* 02:08, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

He lost 2.5%. I think that should clear stuff up. 13:38, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

That war was the first of the Ming invasion. Ming China will crush me in the next attacks. Why can't I just give my land to him and choose a new nation please. - Shadow

Just make an event where a Ming sympathizer takes power in a coup and makes his nation a Chinese vassal.--Yank 02:04, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yank is right let Ming China take me over. I really want to switch my nation. I will be more plausible in the next turn I can come back in from this ban or you could let me be a new nation in this turn 1428 and I will be less stupid and not bother you with implausible posts and stuff. I already lost due to China so why not let me start fresh again. I would like to turn a new leaf. - Shadow

The rules are the rules. Plain and simple. No acceptions. Unless your nation is destroyed, you cannot switch. Cour *talk* 17:10, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

The Map...
I am playing as the Aztecs. And the map was updated but not fully yet. I don't know if it is still being worked on or not, but I am not colored in on the map. And I would like to be. Also Tibet also has not been colored in. I may be mistaken as I only glanced at it. But a few minor things are missing. I am aware that the mapmakers have a difficult job. SwankyJ (talk) 01:29, March 1, 2014  (UTC)


 * I have colored Tibet and the Aztecs. Let me know what other errors there are. Mscoree (talk) 13:16, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Cuzco has expanded quite a bit.What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 02:21, March 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * How far has Cuzco expanded?  Mscoree (talk) 13:16, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * 400km into the Ayrmaras territtory (I was told i would not need an algo because they are fractured) and to the coastline east of the Ica Naza.

I unfortunately cannot make the current map due to internet issues. I can't upload anything more than a turn and that is iffy as it is. Scandinator (talk)

Don't worry Scan. I've handling the map for now. Mscoree (talk) 13:12, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hey Ms, u miss the Modena border in Italy! Quashi (talk) 15:19, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hey so the Aztecs have expanded 200 pixels equally around my starting place. And then 200 more pixels north west. SwankyJ (talk) 17:38, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Ming (Attacker)

 * Location: 20
 * ​Ming: 20
 * Qara Del: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 3
 * Nations: Ming (L), Korea (MV), Haixi Jurchens (MV), Tainan (SV), Qara Del (LV): 12/4 = 3
 * Military: 11+0/21 = 0
 * Economy: 0+11/1 +4 = 15
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Chance: 6
 * Opponent Edit Count: 2324
 * UTC time: 9:24
 * Chance: 2324/72*pi=101.40362954087054841926643364919
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 9 
 * ​Ming: 11
 * Qara Del: 7
 * Age: 0
 * Ming: 0
 * Qara Del: 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 9+20=29
 * Vassals & Puppets: -4
 * Total =  91

Mongol Khanate (Defender)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage : 0
 * Nations: Mongol Khanate (L): 4/12 = 0
 * Military: 21/11 = 2 
 * Economy: 1/11 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 1
 * Chance: 2
 * Opponent Edit Count: 2324
 * UTC time: 9:24
 * Chance: 2324/72*pi=101.40362954087054841926643364919
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 9-5 (troop morale low due to war penalty) = 4
 * Age: 0 (1368)
 * Recent Wars: -12
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 6
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total = 38*1.25 =  47.5 

Results

 * ((y/(y+z))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((91/(91+47.5))*2)-1*(1-1/(8))
 * 0.31407942238267148014440433212996*(7/8)
 * 27.481949458483754512635379061372%
 * Ming China restores the pre-war Oirat/Mongol border. The Mongol Khanate is forced to sign a truce with both parties to not war with either side while the Oirats and the Ming will respect Mongol terriotorial soverignty.

Austrian Vassalization
Hey guys

Do the basic vassal rules still apply? As in, does your target for vassaliztion still have to be contiguous to your own, considering that Austria is vassalizing/influencing nations like Burggrafschaft who have a border with Bavaria rather than Austria. Also, the nation of Burgau is colored with Austrian orange on the 1427 (???) map even though I began vassalizing it in 1416, to which I finished vassalizing in 1422.

Cookiedamage (talk) 16:26, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Vassals have to be continuous with your own borders, which mine are. In my turns I list a few states that I have interest in, but vassalize them one at a time, starting with the one connected to me. I also have been influencing Burgau since 1416 and finished in 1419/20, so it is my vassal. Mscoree (talk) 16:40, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

If you check the 1416 section, you'd see that I had begun vassalizing Burgau before you did. Yes, you had mentioned influencing them, but I claimed it earlier than you. Also, you declared Burgau your vassal in 1418, not 1419 or 1420. Since there is a three year minimum, it still is my vassal since I not only began earlier but I actually followed the rules. Cookiedamage (talk) 16:57, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

I have been influencing them since 1416 to the present. I might have gotten the date wrong in which I should have officially vassalized them, but given my size it was either one or two turns before you. Speaking of which I was thinking our two nations could disucss borders in the future. If you give me Burgau I will relinquish claim over Oettingen and Burggrafschaft for you to take for example. Mscoree (talk) 17:00, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

I have already begun vassalzing Oettingen and you have no legitimate claim on Burggrafschaft because of non-continguity. I still claim Burgau to be mine since your declaration of suzerainty over them was still against the rules, and in my opinion, your suzerainty should be nullified. Cookiedamage (talk) 17:07, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

It's nut null just because I accidently miscounted. I've still been influencing it just as much as you have, and since I am larger I would have finished before you. Mscoree (talk) 17:12, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

So be it. I say we wait until a non-biased mod advises us on what to do, because it's obvious that the vassal rules need to be updated. Cookiedamage (talk) 17:18, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

GQM sayeth Austria cannot vassalize Burgercraft. Only puppet. Also Burgau is Bavarian. That is all.

18:05, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw you're not a moderator. Mscoree (talk) 18:10, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

As the first unbiased mod in this situation, I think it would be fair for the vassalization to take longer for both parties, since there are competing influences in the nation.

What say the other mods?

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 18:48, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

This sounds fair. Maybe even a civil war in the nation between the competing factions within said nation. If you both are influencing one nation, they won't just drop everything and choose one side just because that side has been there a year or two in advance. Cour *talk* 18:57, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

Okay that sounds fair. I'll try to find some way to set up this crisis in-game. Mscoree (talk) 18:59, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, and I say an unbiased mod create a mod event, preferably in the upcoming five turns, - Someone

I'd just like to point out that something like this actually happened in OTL to some degree. Burgau created tensions with the Bavarian Wittelsbachs, who wished to annex the region. The Bavarians attempted to purchase the territory in 1418, but this was resisted by the Imperial Cities of Augsburg and Ulm, with the support of several other cities. For that reason, being one of a long line of attempts for Bavaria to annex the region, I'd imagine that the locals would not be happy with Bavaria acquiring Burgau. Mscoree (talk) 23:39, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Cookie and I have been talking this over and we have decided a plan for the future. Here's the summary: Over the next few days I will be making moderator events about the Burgau civil war, eventually allowing them to go to Bavaria probably within the next five years. Mscoree (talk) 01:41, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Burgau has civil war and eventually joins Bavaria as vassal.
 * Oettingen remains an Austrian vassal, although cut off and unable to vassalize from it.
 * Bavaria will continue to vassalize Burg and Bamberg.
 * Hohenhole will continue to be vassalized by Mainz.

Hamburg (Attacker)
Total: 72 x 1.25 = 90
 * Location: 18
 * Hamburg: 20
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 3 (attacker, connected Capital)
 * Nations: Hamburg(L), Brunswick-Lüneburg(L) = 8/4 = 2
 * Military Development: 16/3 = 5
 * Hamburg: 10
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: 6
 * Economic Development: 16/3 = 5
 * Hamburg: 10
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 8 = 0 (Attackers don't get infrastructure)
 * Hamburg: 5
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: 3
 * Motive: 15
 * Hamburg:17 (Hegemony, Troop Morale, Support, Similar culture)
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: 22 (Hegemony, Morale, support, aiding ally, similar culture)
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit count: 680
 * UTC: 19:58
 * Total: 680/360*pi = 5.93411946
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Hamburg: +5
 * Brunswick-Lüneburg: +5
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: only nation * 1.25

Saxe-Lauenburg (Defender)
Total: 64 x 1.25 = 80
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Saxe-Lauenburg (L) : 4 = 0
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economic Development: 3 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Motive: 9 (defending from potentially fatal strike)
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: Mature Nation: + 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: Only nation * 1.25

Result
90/170 -0.5 x 2 = 0.05882353

Brunswick-Luneburg can take up to 5,8% of Saxe-Lauenburg, depending in how long the war lasts.

Discussion
Your algorythm had many mistakes.i corrected them.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:44, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

Hesse (Attacker)
Total: 90
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Hesse (L), Nassau (MV), Frankfurt (MV), Austria (L), Salzburg (MV), Gorizia (MV), Augsburg (MV), Burgau (MV), Aquila (MV), Chur (MV), Württemberg (MV), Bohemia (L), Moravia (L), Brandenburg (L), Luxembourg (L), Trier (L), Spoonheim (MV), Brieg (MV), Falkenburg (MV), Glogau (MV), Liegnitz (MV), Oels (MV), Opole (MV), Rativor (MV), Severien (MV), Strehlitz (MV), Teschen (MV), Troppau (MV), Palatine (MV), Oettingen (MV), Mainz (L), Cologne (L), Heinsburg (MV) =84/4, 21
 * Military Development: 56/14 = 4
 * Austria: 16
 * Hesse: 30
 * Trier: 12
 * Economic Development: 32/12 = 3
 * Austria: 14
 * Hesse: 0
 * Trier: 18
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 7 (Attacking to enforce political hegemony)
 * Chance:
 * Edit count:
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Austria: 0
 * Bohemia: 0
 * Brandenburg: 0
 * Moravia: 0
 * Luxembourg: -5
 * Hesse: +5
 * Population: 2
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Saxony (Defender)
Total: 48.75
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Saxony (L), 0
 * Military Development: 14 = 0
 * Economic Development: 12 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion
Burgau and Oettingen are technically independent, esp. Oettingen. Oettingen should not get an MV considering it does not border any Austrian lands and will be my vassal upon 1430. Cookiedamage (talk) 21:58, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Burgau and Oettingen are Austrian vassals for all intents and purposes, although Burgau will eventually not be. Oettingen was vassalized when it bordered Austrian land. When it ceases to border Austrian land then Austria will no longer be able to vassal off of it. Also moved your comment to the correct section. Mscoree (talk) 22:07, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Oettingen never bordered Austrian land. Ever. Unless of course you mean the border with Burgau (which is, as far as I know, disputed between Bavaria and Austria.) So, I don't think you should be shadily adding disputed vassals to your war algo in the midst of a dispute. Cookiedamage (talk) 22:10, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

It's not that shady. Burgau was considered Austria's vassal for years since he finished vassalizing it first, upto when you started claiming it was yours. During that time he vassalized Oettingen via this link, and this only became a problem when you gained interest in that area as well. It seems like Austria is now basically relinquishing those vassals to you after this point, and you're not even in this war, so what's the problem? NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 22:22, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Oettingen wasn't mentioned at all until 1427 when I FIRST mentioned it as being vassalized by Bavaria. If you don't believe do an F3 word check and type in Oettingen and you will find that Oettingen was first mentioned by me in 1427. MS literally threw Oettingen in his massive pile of vassals in 1429 WITHOUT ever mentioning it by name ever before. It was literally annexed within one year and if that's not shady AND a breach of the rules I don't know what is. Cookiedamage (talk) 22:34, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Actually I first began vassalising them 1421, it's just that I spelled the name wrong for several turns. Mscoree (talk) 00:55, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Vassalization Rules (Straighten 'em out)
Hello! It's me again! I was just questioning the rules of vassalization of NPC's. I see many different nations simply saying "We begin influencing/vassalizing x", "We start the process of vassalizing y". I believe that posts like that are completely unfair to players to who play plausibly when vassalizing, such as by begining trade relations, creating alliances, gaining military access, placing advisors, and giving gifts. A person playing plausibly like that will end up taking up to 3 or 4 turns to START vassalizing (Assuming mods respond to their diplomacy on time). A player who does not play plausibly like that will have a vassal in just three turns, making it completely unfair to players who wish to build relations over time and plausibly, and will in fact encourage good players to forgo the route of relation building in favor of simply saying "We begining influencing/vassalizing x". Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 22:03, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

I agree, should take someone at least 3 turns to start to vassalize because they have some sort of presence or influence on a nation. <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)

Although I agree that it is important to build relations before vassalizing, the rules sort of already cover this by deeming that vassals need to be plausible candidates. Also if you're requiring three turns before vassalizing, that's essentially the same as just requiring six to vassalize. Mscoree (talk) 04:25, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

I personally think that the vassalisation period should be doubled. With 6 at the minimum turns for vassalisation.

Either that or vassalisation should be something that requires a full turn. That way you have to choose between vassalisation and development points or border expansion or colonisation instead of having people develop and vassalise to crazy amounts. Kunarian TALK 06:53, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

But there are also the size rules.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:05, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Size rules are good and all but makes no difference if you can just vassalise and develop at the same time, otherwise why not always be vassalising? which is a pretty ridiculous notion. Change the name to Principia Vassallos if you're content with the game just becoming a race to vassalise all nations on the map. Kunarian TALK 08:54, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Principia Clientium rather. Mscoree (talk) 13:17, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Also it might not be a bad idea to create a mini-algo to deal with conflicts of influence, such as when you are trying to vassalise a nation someone else is too. Kunarian TALK 09:02, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

That's a possibility. Nations definitely competed for vassasls in real life. Algorithm or not it let to some interesting situations, like the one in Burgau, which I thought was handled pretty well. Mscoree (talk) 13:19, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, aside from the various issues raised about bias, that one's looking interesting and fun (<this fun is possible through mediation). i still think a mini-algo would at least sort out issues people have if they both want to vassalise one nation, further on top of this it would reward players who take an active interest in realistically RPing vassalisation but would of course need to be wholly grounded in realism. Kunarian TALK 15:41, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well I mean, I'm sitting here developing friendships with nations by sending gifts, getting trade influence, creating converts, getting alliances, and military access. And then I end up going through a 20 turn vassalization procedure AFTER doing all that (It takes so many turns, lack of mod responses). Then there are other nations that literally have had no diplomatic relations with any nation until they simply say "We influence x (Turn one of three)". I mean, if that's all it takes, I'll gladly stop trying to build relations with nations that have no players and simply state I'm vassalizing them. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 22:03, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * If the mods are so complacent to allow for such a pathetic method of roleplaying (the "we influence this and that for x number of turns") take primacy over actually building relations then if I were you I'd stop putting so much effort in. Kunarian TALK 08:52, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * We aren't that complacent. If you vassalise too fast and too much expect events. The only reason there aren't as many is that a lot of the other mods are blocking some of my severe events and pandering to keep players in... Scandinator (talk) 12:11, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe Mods need to let some of these events happen, after all players can smack down events (if its plausible) and just forcibly or diplomatically revassalise in a single turn. However not having these events can cause issues, one thing I've noticed with the new map is that Austria alone seems to be vassalising half of Germany, which is crazy! Of course if there's no war, good economic relations and vassal-leige relationships are stable there's no reason for vassals to try and break away BUT if a leige has just dragged vassals into a war they don't want (for cultural/economic reasons or simply too much war has occured recently) or if a leige is not economically important to a vassal to any significant degree (or even is inhibiting a vassal economically) or if a leige is simply not on good grounds relations wise (violently crushing a rebellion in a vassal is such a thing as this) THEN something should happen.


 * Of course events shouldn't be random and for the lols, a players actions should decide whether their vassals are going to break away. Kunarian TALK 12:47, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Players need to accept that events happen. The timurids and mamluks need to be put in check <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;">Flag_of_Tibet.svg <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)  RustySilverGear.png 13:13, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to say that my newly acquired territroy is not comprised of vassals. Those lands I inherited. As for events, someone attempts my impeachment everytime I try to do something. Mscoree (talk) 13:08, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then you should avoid doing confrontational events for nations that are near Austrias sphere, which is the HRE and neighbours of the HRE. Also about the inherited thing, if they are not your vassals are you in personal or dynastic union with someone? Still it looks like a lot of vassals for Austria... Kunarian TALK 14:40, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have a good amount of actual vassals too. The ones I inherited from Bohemia I am merging into Silesia soon enough. Bohemia, Moravia, Luxembourg, and Brandenburg I believe are in personal union, since my king is their king currently. Mscoree (talk) 21:32, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Aymara State question.
So I noticed that in response to my Alliance with the Ica-Naza, the Aymara have formed a centerlized state around Lake Titicaca, the map for has not added Cuzco expansion yet, and my alitly to aprroximte in Kilometers is bad, So can someone tell me how close I am to that, because ive taken 800km from the Aymaras while they where fractured.A more centerlized state means that I have to use an algo now right?What is this????Is this a signature??? (talk) 20:02, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Savoy (Attacker)

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Savoy (L) 4, d'Asti (MV) 2, Montferrat (MV) 2 = 8 -> 8/16 = 0
 * Military: 10 -> 10/48 = 0
 * Economy: 10 -> 10/42 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 3 (Gains land) -5 (low morale)
 * Chance: (64/8)*pi= 25.132 = 3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Wars: 0
 * Vassals/Puppets: *1.25
 * Result: 47

Genoa and Friends (Defenders)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Genoa (LV) 3, Corsica (MV) 2, Tuscany (MV) 2, Ferrara (LV) 3, Modena (MV) 2, Naples (L) 4, Zeta (MV) 2 = 16 -> 16/8 = 2
 * Military: 48 -> 48/10 = 4.8 = 5
 * Naples: 16
 * Genoa: 16
 * Ferrara:16
 * Economy: 42 -> 42/10 = 4.2 = 4 + 2 (Genoa)
 * Naples: 14
 * Genoa: 14
 * Ferrara: 14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 8 + 8 + 8 = 8
 * Chance:(472/8)*pi= 185.3485 = 4
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 9 +10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals: -3
 * Result: 76

Results

 * ((z/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((76/(76+47))*2)-1*(1-1/(4))
 * 0.235772358 * (1-1/(4)) = 0.176829268 = 17,6%

Discussion
Added to the 16% from the last war, Savoy is now part of Naples. Quashi (talk) 02:06, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Corrected some mistakes in the chance (the chance number is supposed to be the second number after the point.the third number is only used for NPCs.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

I only declare war on Genoa, not Naples, why is he attacking me? --Zengu (talk) 01:36, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Genoa is a vassal of Naples, so you essentially attacked Naples by invading Genoa. Mscoree (talk) 01:40, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Signatures
Could everyone make sure their signature doesn't mess up the page. I don't know whose it is but I think Jbwncster is the guilty one at the moment when it comes to making the page go spaz. I've had to put 8 of these things: < / span >, to make this section readable. Kunarian TALK 14:42, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Firearms, Hand Cannons and Arquebus
People seem to be equipping entire armies with these. As if the firearm/hand cannon was the turning point in warfare at this time, as if firearm/hand cannons are economical for armies at this time and as if the firearm/hand cannons are even effective for large scale warfare at this time.

It worries me that people seem to either be being silly and thinking that these weapons are the kill all or just being asb (as in preparing for the future when firearms are actually effective for equipping to entire armies).

The real game changer of this time was the Pike, it effectively countered the dominance of heavy cavalry, whereas firearms did not. They were too slow, too inaccurate and didn't actually have the punch to go through quite a lot of armour. The term bullet-proof comes from when smiths would shoot a bullet at their armour to prove it could stop a bullet.

A bow is way way more effective than firearms at this time, it not only shoots faster, it is accurate, longer range and the power you can put behind one can punch through armour (although normally requiring a special armour piercing arrow).

Please remember this, especially considering that when you come up against an army of heavy horse, armoured men-at-arms and bowmen. I really don't want to see any ASB this side of 400 year long game saying that your army of hand cannoneers slaughtered them down to the last man, even a phyrric victory in such a battle would be asb. The hand cannoneers would be riddled with arrows while getting into position, then maybe they'll get one shot off, it'll fail to weaken the enemy and then the hand cannoneers'll get charged by the cavalry and viciously killed while fumbling with bags of powder.

At the very least put Pikes in front of them, then I can somewhat accept the lunacy of trying to equip your armies with firearms at this time. The pikes uber effectiveness will balance out against the firearms ineffectiveness. Firearms will be a weapon

Of course I am just talking about the people who are equipping their armies en mass with this, hand cannons and arquebusiers are appearing now and should be but not at the main weapon of warfare.

TL;DR:
 * Firearms are not the kill all. Pikes, bows and horses are still the main thing and each is better than a firearm at this time. They will remain better than a firearm up until around 1650.
 * Around 1650 the standard army will be Pikes, firearms and horses, because firearms are now much more effective as they do actually become accurate with the invention of the flintlock musket.
 * Around 1690 plate armour will become so inneffective it will leave use almost completely. On top of that the roles of Pikeman and Musketeer will join together with the invention of the bayonet.
 * Then it'll be pew pew and neigh neigh with little armour for around 100 years until we get to the industrial revolution with BOOM BOOMS.

Could the mods take note and keep an eye on players trying to rush a few hundred years ahead in technology. Kunarian TALK 14:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

well kun while they werenta game changer they did infact affect the way the battles played out one could outfit a arquebus army in a matter of months, mixed with cannons it allowed for a terrifying force, and dont forget by the 1500s firearms were alot more coming, in large groups they could be destructive as was shown by the japanese during the sengoku period. also the hungarians employed mass firearms to devastating effects during the hungarian ottoman war. while they were inferior in rate of fire to arrows they were faster then cross bows, and they had a greater pysch affect Nkbeeching (talk) 14:22, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Arquebus were innaccurate, cannons are a different matter as they fired large enough balls to be effective but even then they were used primarily against castles until later for a good reason. And you must link me to these battles that you quote where they were the main fighting force because I can't find any! Don't try and argue against history, history will beat you down! Do not try and argue that it is logical to have armies wholly of cannons and arquebus at this time, economically and militaristically its not practical and it's incredibly ASB especially if these armies are somehow beating armies of bowmen, pikemen and horse. Please don't try and jump a few hundred years ahead because you think guns are cool. Kunarian TALK 14:51, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * kun i never said exclusively made up of firerms im saying that during this period there were being incorperated into infantry forces. And i used 2 very strong historical examples which you just tossed aside. The Hungarians employed firearms to be used by one in every three men within their army to be used as the troops approached their enemies. Im  not saying that firearms replaced swords, pikes, and all of that im saying that their importance in warfare began to geow in this period. my dutch forces for instance, are infantry, with firearms, swords, pikes, etc, while supported by archers, and light calvary. The traditional midevil warfare was on a decline already in this period though it would not go away completely until much later. Also the Sengoku periood in japan was from 1460s to 1580s Oda Nabunaga employed mass arquebus tactics followed by strong swordsman charges to devastating effects. Firearms in mass use at the time may have been inaccurate at a long distance, but close up they were devastating to infantry, when properly used and followed up by solid attacks from other types of troops.  Nkbeeching (talk) 14:59, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't worry if you're not making armies exclusively of firearms and if you're not substituting firearms for bows. My issue is only with those that are doing those things. And you're right the importance did grow but they never became revolutionary until around 1650, until then they were just another type of weapon in the armoury of an army. Also traditional medieval warfare was on the decline because of Pikemen at this time, not firearms, pikemen were ending the dominance of the knight.


 * Trust me, you're not the person I look at when this issue arises in my mind. You're actually doing the development well. And by the looks of what you're writing you understand how they work as part of warfare. Which is not as the bread and butter of your army. Kunarian TALK 15:18, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * oh im know they werent revolutinary until the rise of muskets and bayonets, but those forces that did embrace them had a decisive advantage when used properly against a purely traditionally armed force. Nkbeeching (talk) 16:41, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bows are still a better artillery weapon at this time. Guns are good for shock tactics, you are right. Kunarian TALK 21:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am.  22:37, March 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * The first recorded mass use of the Arquebus was in the Hungarian Black Army in the late 1400s, so no one should really be having those yet.
 * As far as I know, most armies are just saying that they are introducing them as a regular weapon, not a weapon used by all, but I could be missing some stuff.
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:26, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Ocean Currents and Discovery
Hello Fellow Voyagers! Like most of you, I am intersted in the Age of Exploration, but I would like this pivotal era to be tackled plausibly.

Note: I do not intend to harrass Viva, but he has just given me the reason needed to propse this idea which would help the game a ton.

Now, as some of you may have experienced with me, Viva claims to have sailed around Africa (over 150 years before progressive Europeans under Dias sailed to the Cape of Good Hope.) He also claims to have reached India (about 160 years earlier than De Gama's famed voyage).

Now, Viva will tell you that he has European technology. He will tell you that he has been trading (both overland and via sea) with Castille. I do not doubt that he has been trading and has some European technology. But lets be frank, he doesn't have 1500s era ships.

Now, we are also experiencing a little bit of fun with the Chinese voyage which has already taken place. This can trigger exploration by other people (like my Mamluks), and this is actually plausible. Lets look at ocean currents, shall we? (Those of you from PM2 may recognize these arguments - Viva made them frequently when defending his Vivempire.)



I do not pretend to fully understand this map, but I assume that the arrows indicate which direction the currents go. So, from China, for instance, the treasure fleet can go via the South Equatorial, then down the Aguinas, to the Benguela, and then just do some hard sailing the rest of the way. And from the Mamluks, we were in line when we sailed from the Aguinas to the Benguela, stopping at Kongo, and then going to Benin.

But as for Viva? He would have to sail against the Benguela, and then against the Aguinas, and then against the N. Equatorial. '''Plausible for war canoes? No.'''

How can we counter this problem in the future? Good question. I propose use of this page: Discoveries ; which will be laid out so that a player proposes a discovery (tech or geographical) and then a mod procedes to say aye or nay. A successful proposal would include: Thanks! (TL;DR We need a better system of discovery in order to prevent Viva from sailing to the moon. JK Viva, you are just the example, no hard feeling intended.)  07:31, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Achievement/Discovery
 * OTL Date of Discovery
 * ATL Proposed Date
 * ATL vs OTL facts which Change Things
 * Proof of plausibility (Use of maps, diagrams, Wikipedia, etc.)

One an ENTIRELY unrelated note, I will be really busy this weekend, and out of town, and camping, so I have asked MP to post for me. Please, mods, do not go to harsh on me/him since it'd be hard to handle any issues as I'll be out of town. 08:12, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

I would have to agree some people do seem to be doing exploration and naval technology unrealistically. Kunarian TALK 08:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I really like the Discoveries page proposal, sounds like a great idea. Fed (talk) 15:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Time to handle stuff. Trade between Africa and Europe had been commonplace for centuries before anyone bothered to sail around West Africa, chiefly through the Sahara Desert. I've stated this on multiple occassions, but appearently it isn't sinking into your heads (not directed at Rex). Unrelated note, Rex, this is like the 500th time you've brought this up. What's your deal?

If you would be so kind as to direct your attention to the right, you'll there is a map showing the trade routes between West Africa and North Africa. Three of those trade routes land smack dab on top of Oyo territory (once the mapmakers correct the map, you'll see Oyo controls the entire coastline of West Africa), meaning that I can and always have had the ability to trade with Europe, just as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai did in OTL. Also, when I began trading with Feud, I requested missionaries as well, which he sent, meaning that Catholicism would have plausibly reached Oyo. Additionally, like Ethiopia, Oyo would have accepted the belief because of their leader. Most historical conversations failed when the leader, the person to whom the looked too for guidance, refuted the belief. King Ezana of Axum accepted it, and converted, leading to his people embracing Christianity. Oranyan was baptized, and embraced the belief, as did his nobles, but for some reason that was deemed ASB. I don't know why, but I think some of the mods better pick up a book and understand it IS plausible.

Now on the matter of the ships. Early in the game, my nation had large canoes much greater in size than a Viking longship (about 60 feet long and carrying 120 men according to OTL examples regarding African military technology). These ships were not sailing against the current as the current is most powerful away from the coast. The canoes I used were used to reach Angola, and stuck to the coast, not away from it. Nowhere did I ever use the canoes to reach Europe or the Middle East, and only made my move to South Africa in a prolonged voyage, but aways had my men stop to forage for supplies and food, since these were professional warriors trained to survive away from home (like in OTL West Africa).

On the matter of the "15th century vessels", they aren't "15th century vessels". Their indigenous craft built by the Oyo for long-distance trade, not European ships. The Oyo sent a trade delegation to Castille in the early 1400s after Mali tried to hike up the toll for trade (in-game post), forcing the Oyo to search for a way away the Mali. Given the importance of the gold trade to OTL West African economies, Oyo had a plausible reason to search for another way. This resulted in them reaching Morocco on their own through the desert (as the Tuaregs would support anyone with enough money though the desert), and seeing how trade was conducted aboard actual ships. Given that Oyo possessed an OTL industry Mali did not (as Oyo and West Africa in general, were historically more urbanized that the rest of Africa), and possessed a natural port for shipbuilding, which the Oyo had engaged in, but not on a seriously level.

Thus, when need to get around the hostile desert arose, as well as need to trade with someone other than the Mali to sustain the economy, the Oyo turned to the sea. Since Oyo and Castille were trading by land, there were many members of the Oyo nation working in Castille (as would be normal for trading missions). Thus, many had much time to observe the workings of ships from their locations, and could give that information to the men heading back to Oyo. Over the next thirty odd years, Oyo spent that time working to build their own ships, not copies of European ships. In the same manner in which the Japanese had the atakebune, the Chinese having the junks, the Arabs the dhow, and the Indians the boita, the Oyo had the yanyan and the nlanla, ships built out of neccessity. They saw the wealth of Europe and North Africa, and needed that wealth to sustain their own. Rather than allow themselves to lose that window of opprotunity, the Oyo made the jump to build ships by trial and error, and got these two classes of ship.

Now onto the currents. The currents would present a problem for manpowered ships such as canoes, but for sailing vessels, no. Being heavier and powered by wind, sailing ships, especially those situtated near the equator, would have an easier time rounding the Cape of Good Hope as opposed to one coming straight north, such as those from Europe. So if anything, an Oyo ship would be able to make the trip as opposed to one from say, England. Now you say "progressive Europeans" in such a way as to indicate that Oyo is neither progressive nor able to do anything seaworthy as it is not European. For the last thirty years, Oyo had a progressive emperor who focused on modernization, and traveled frequently so as to understand as much about his world to help his people advance. If anything, Oyo is just as progressive as any European nation. You speak of fame and progression, but you forget one simple fact. Europe was far removed from South Africa and didn't know about the Cape of Good Hope.

Europe had no reason to round the cape of Africa as it traded through the Byzantine Empire for centuries. Only when the Ottoman Empire took over and threatened the European trade routes did the latter make attempts to get around the Cape, which they only discovered after the fall of Constantinople. Note how Columbus only made his trip fourty years after the city's fall, and only when it became appearent that the Turks wouldn't be good partners. That's the only reason Europe turned to the sea. Before that, all trade went through the East. When the East turned red, the Europeans turned West. Unlike the Europeans who had no logical reason to round the cape, the Oyo are in a position of strength, as they had knowledge of the cape (which Europe did not as they hadn't explored the area yet), and they have good relations with the Arabs and the Europeans. Since the Oyo are located far from Arabia with whom they trade greatly, they have a reason to turn to the sea to reach them, and a monetary reason at that.

So my reasons are perfectly plausible and grounded in fact rather than fiction. Recap time. Europe only turned to Africa after the Turks refused them access to the East, prompting the attempt to find a way to reach the then fabled India. Oyo turned to the Cape out of necessity as it needs to trade with Arabia and Castille without making long trips through the desert, and thus turned to the sea. Since Oyo knows about Europe, it has a reason to trade with Europe. Since Europe has no reason to go around the cape (as the East is still accessible), and most of Africa remains unexplored by Europe, they have no reason to go so far south unless they are trading with Oyo.

Now, I'm sorry about the wall of text, but it was important for my explaination. I think I've explained my point nicely enough Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:39, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yes Scraw. 35 years, just like Japan. Like Japan, Oyo had both an incentive and foundation to do so. Oyo possessed the economic capital to pay for the modernization, the government stability and popularity to push through reforms, and many of the required industries already existed in Oyo (iron foundries, as well as advanced woodworking and stonecutting). Oranyan made education compulsory early in his reign long before the modernization efforts came, and like Japan, sent scholars, experts, and merchants throughout the world (known world) to learn what they could and return with that knowledge. Like Japan's Charter Oath with legalized the pursuit of modernization (effectively demanding Japan modernize), Oranyan decreed that modernization would be the sole focus of his government from the beginning of the game. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:50, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.


 * 20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

The number of tribes that were actually a threat are small, since most of those 30,000 tribes were very small, number only a few thousand members at the most. The Yoruba who make up the majority in the Oyo Empire, a heavily centralized empire OTL and ATL, numbered in the millions for centuries. Only the Akan are a threat, and I've mostly pacified them. Plus, most of the Akan lived in the interior since they had no reason to live on the coast. Most of the food they act was grown or hunted in the interior. Only when the Europeans arrived did the Akan move toward the coast due to the presence the coastal "factories", where the slave trade and Afro-European trade took place. And back to the tribes issue, most of the tribes are related, and OTL didn't fight one another because of that. Their tribal status had more to due with location rather than ethnicity, something any person would be to look up on the internet.

Plus, because of the Oyo and Castille trade agreement, Oyo gets weapons (non-gunpower) and armor, meaning Oyo is leagues above any of the tribes that they out-number and out-tech. Fun fact by the way, most of the 30,000 tribal groups appeared when empires such as Oyo, Benin, Songhai, and Mali, broke up into mini-empires, which the modern ethnic groups of Africa were formed. That only took place in the late-1500s and mid-1600s, far from where I am now. Those tribes also broke up even further with differences in language and belief, another result of the collapse of West African kingdoms during the Colonization era. So there are no massive tribal groups as you and others would like to believe. So you, Scraw, have nothing to fight with, since OTL invalidates everything you have claimed. Your argument has been invalidated. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Oh. Insults. Classy. When that is your only fallback, you've lost all credibility. You asked me only question, a question I couldn't see since my internet is derpy. Oranyan made education compulsory because he needed as many thinkers as possible as he knew he couldn't rely on Europe for all of his knowledge. If he wanted to advance, he needs to have people who can read, write, and record all of the information needed to make it happen. Another fun fact if you didn't notice (which I suppose you didn't), in Judea, all parents were required to teach their children. The Aztecs (as I suspected), are regarded as the first nation to formally make acquiring an education compulsory throughout the social ladder, as well as create an entire system for it. This took place nearly a hundred years before Scotland passed the Education Act of 1496, the first European nation to do so. And Scraw, just because EUROPE isn't doing something doesn't mean the BIG, VAST, HIGHLY DIVERSE WORLD isn't doing something they aren't. China was the most advanced nation on the planet, and Europe wasn't doing a thing the Chinese were. Does that now mean that China can't do any of the stuff they did because Europe isn't? That belief is ignorant and ludicrous.

You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained). So get your facts straight and do your research before stating something that is clearly incorrect. And maybe when your manners improve, I'll change my tone. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the note of insults. Viva, lately in chat and elsewhere you have been quite aggressive, calling people names on the chat who are simply asking about your nation. Now we even have you attacking Scraw for something he didn't even say. It seems like any time someone brings up your nation you go into a fit of roid rage. Mscoree (talk)

"You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained)."

Let's re-read what I've said so far.

"Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

Now where in all those statements did I say that Africa had 30,000 tribes?

Let's go over what Guns said.

"Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

As you can see, you have confused me for the more ignorant Guns.

21:20, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed I have. I apologise for the mix-up. Your lightsabers confused me. Scraw, go back to black and white, its easier and cooler that way.

Ignorant, my ass.

Let's look at the statistics from 1800, shall we? That's the earliest we can really get.

There were 10,000 distinct kingdoms or other such groups, and approximately 3,000 ethnicities (sorry, I accidentally added an extra zero earlier).

Now, even assuming there were half as many groups- and I see no reason why that would be so- then you should STILL have massive issues.

You currently control large parts of Nigeria and Benin. These two areas historically had about 400 ethincities between them. Nowadays, there are only really three major ones left.

You made a trade agreement with Castille... seriously? That IS ASB. In conclusion; there is a REASON that the biggest African empires OTL were Muslim ones in North Africa.
 * 1) You underestimate the racism of this time. People in Europe considered people from the next town over 'untrustworthy foriegners'. Keep in mind that these are people of the same culture, religion, superstitions, skin colour, and general geogrpahic area as them. You have NONE of those in common.
 * 2) There is very little you could offer them. You do not have the capacity to actually send shipments of gold over to them, and in any case, they have no reason to trade. They have steel and guns. You have wooden spears and war chants.
 * 3) The Oyo were heavily centralized OTL because they were very small. If you only rule over people of your own tribe- as the Oyo did, OTL, over the Yoruba- then that's fine. You, however, also control the lands of Hausa and Igbo.
 * 4) Also note that Gunpowder is not a big advantage at this point. Steel and etc is more important.

I'm not even going into your ridiculous conversion to Catholicism.

In conclusion, I think you were railing against the correct idiot in the first place. I completely agree with you over education- in most of Mali, for instance, people are extremely literate, partly due to the effects of the Songhai or Mali empires (and please note that the second of those was Muslim, and the first declined due to them- kind of like Axum).

21:54, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Once again, this is 1436, the height of the Sub-Saharan African empires. Not 1800 during their great declines (and long after the point I stated many collapsed into mini-empires). You say 1800 is the earliest you can get when countless history books state that there were only a handful of ethnic groups in Africa as a whole, and only by the 1600s did that number increase. Historically, most of the empires in West Africa were highly contained ethnic groups, which were large and possessed a signle language, hence the reason they succeded as empires. However, after their collapses, they broke up, and their people began speaking dialects of the original language, leading to the formation of the numerous tribes. So I have no issues as most of the people in West Africa are either Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Hausa, or Mandinka. I only have three of them in my empire and the Yoruba outnumber them all.

Now, having a trade pact with Castille isn't ASB as you want to believe.

The reason the Muslin ones were bigger is because they were the most aggressive and controlled nearly all of the trade routes in Africa. Henceforth the reason Oyo turned to the seas. And please, tell me why the conversion makes no since. Don't bring it up and say its stupid without giving a reason. If that's all you've got, then your argument makes no sense and only reinforces the stance that Oyo can convert (as you haven't provided a reason why they cannot).
 * 1) Castille traded with Mali and Songhai for centuries, as did many other European empires, and numerous maps of the era showed Mali under Mansa Musa on the same tier of power and respect as European kings (one such map showing him the same size as European kings north of his lands).
 * 2) You don't know that. For all you know I could have thrown them to Castille. There was a clear route to the north (as I just put on page not more than an hour ago), and Oyo being the dominant power in the region, can enforce its trade hegemony on these routes. If you read the posts between me and Feud, I have been trading ivory, gold, diamonds, and exotic fruit with him, things the Europeans literally killed each other over during the time. I have both the capacity and power to trade with them. Also, your statement of Oyo only having "wooden spears and war chants" is incorrect in the highest degree. Benin, Oyo, and Ife all possessed iron age weapons of the same quality as the Europeans (in fact if you did the research you'd see that Oyo and Benin warriors wore and wielded iron armor and weapons). And FYI, the Europeans also wooden spears (wooden shaffs with pikes, spears, and glaives attached to them) and war chants (taunts and drums to frieghten and provoke the enemy). And only a few people have guns right now, not all of Europe.
 * 3) So were half of the European natons Guns. The Yoruba are the largest ethnic group in West Africa right now (OTL and ATL), and make up most of the population in Oyo. There's a good reason it has traditionally been called Yorubaland. Also, the Igbo are to the east of Oyo in Benin, and the Hausa are far north of Oyo. Only the Akan and the Mandinka are in my lands, and their far smaller than the Yoruba (as they have been historically).
 * 4) I don't think I traded for gunpowder yet. Where did you read that? If anything, all I asked from Feud were armour, weapons, and missionaries.
 * One question: What happen to tiny oyo-man ship when big venetian trade lords decide they no like oyo-man trade monopoly in the western coast of Africa? Kunarian TALK 22:49, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter- there were still THOUSANDS of ethnic groups. The kingdoms were caused by the falls- because the ethnic groups previously subjugated rebelled and broke off!

Exactly. Large, and possessing a single langauge and group. You're large, but have lands of 4 tribes. Not one. Each has a different language. Yes, the Yoruba outnumber them- but not enough to actually subjugate them.

Trading with Castille and actually having an agreement with them are two different things. Yeah, and that still applies. The Muslims nations are more advanced than you, they still control all the land trade routes, and the Oyo don't have the technology to enforce hegemony on them, certainly not over Mali- which, please note, is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than you. As for the sea, please. Canoes? Over open sea? I think not.
 * Yes, they did- but they never formalized anything. Mansa Musa, by the way, was a MALIAN king, not one of the Oyo. He was a Northern African Muslim power with basically the same technology as many of them- no gunpowder, but steel and etc. Which the Oyo did NOT possess OTL, and there is no conceivable reason for that to change. Note that I said Steel, NOT iron. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference there- if you do some research, you'll see why. Iron is much softer and weaker than steel.
 * No, you cannot enforce those land based trade routes. You're the dominant power in OTL Nigeria and Benin. You do not have the power to punch through the lands of the Mali empire, which, FYI, is much stronger than your little titch empire. And I said STEEL, not Iron. SIGNIFICANT difference. The Spanish won in the Americas because they had STEEL. The Incan and Aztecs had other metals. Steel was much stronger.
 * 1) Actually, no. At this point in history, most European nations only control their own ethnicities. That changed over the next few hundred years, after they new technologies of the time made it easier to move information and people. Your lands DO infringe on some of Igbo territories, and while you outnumber the other three, it's not enough of a majority to subjugate them. You WILL lose those lands, if the mods ever get their act together.
 * 2) My bad. I was wrong there- I misread your post- missed the non-gunpowder part.

Why the honest fuck would they convert? They have NO reason! It's like Britain suddenly deciding to convert to Islam in the 12th century. Contrary to what you seem to think, most of the powers in your region are either Muslim or Animist.

22:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

You continue to say thousands as if there were thousands when there were not. These thousands of ethnic groups only popped up during the 17th and 18th centuries after the African empires broke up and isolation took effect. So hundreds in the 1400s is the correct estimate, but nowhere near thousands. And even so, the Yoruba still outnumber them hundreds to one. Most of the population as I already told you, resided in West Africa, which was the most urbanized region in Africa, period. Those numerous tribes resided int he Central African interior where isolation broke up the populations into tiny groups, which broke up further as new settlements were established. So the ethnic group issues would only persist in Central Africa, not the develop regions of West Africa.

On Castille: The Muslims are on the same tier as Oyo, if not below. The Oyo and Benin empires were considerably more advanced that Mali, Mali only considered the most advanced as there is more information on them. However, recent discoveries have shown that the African empires south of Mali were more advanced than previously thought, and possessed better city building skills than even the Mali. And if you read my post on the African war canoes, in spite of their name, they were as big and deep as a Viking longship, which we all know sailed over over water. Also, I made very clear that the vessels stuck to the coast, where they would be safe. I also stated that they landed regularly to forage for supplies. Go back a few paragraphs and you'll see that very statement.
 * 1) Regardless, the Mali were black, just like the Oyo. So the point is moot, as the Castillians still traded with the man regardless of his ethnicity. Even if the Castillians were racist (a phenomenon that only emerged during colonization and their history with the Moors), you can't control what two players do as the action, ethnicities aside, is plausible in spite of your opposition to it. And Oyo and Mali are right next to each other, they share a border. Oyo and Benin were in fact more advanced than Mali in that they utilized more technologies than Mali, and had more cities (Mali only had three large cities as opposed to the dozens that existed in Oyo and Benin). And I believe iron and steel is where I got mixed up. The West Africans did have steel swords, as evidenced by the Akan akrafene sword, which was made of steel.
 * 2) You have no idea what I'm capable of, and the idea you can dictate what i can and can't is is hilarious. Mali is less populous than all of Oyo, and nowhere near as urbanized or militarized as Oyo. OTL, Oyo could mobilized 180,000-250,000 men. Mali could only mobilize 100,000 men. Mali wouldn't be able to make a dent into West Africa. And my empire is much larger than Mali on the map, do in no small part to the fact that the mapmakers didn't expand Oyo to its proper size (as has been the case with many other players' nations).
 * 3) Your statement on the size of the Yoruba is once against incorrect. Though I control three ethnic groups, the Yoruba expanded into land that neither the Akan nor the Mandinka resided in. The latter two groups lived in the interior where food and water were more accessible given their technologies, but the Yoruba and the Igbo resided on the coast as they had greater knowledge and technology needed to harness the ocean's foods and resources. Remember, the Yoruba and the Igbo lived along the rivers where they built their cities. The Akan and the Mandinka resided in the interior far from rivers and the ocean, and had no interest in it. I expanded along the coastline for a reason Guns. So I do outnumber the other tribes significantly given the spread of the populations of the time. Fun fact, Mali is the Mandinka homeland, meaning I have yet to expand considerably into their lands yet.
 * 4) Understood.

Ethiopia had no reason to convert either. But they did. Men came in and the preached to the people. The people liked what they heard, and converted, like the Ethiopians did. So your point once again is moot. And have you ever thought for a moment that Oyo wants to be set apart from the other nations around them? Your replacing plausibility with your own feelings of what you think is right or wrong. The missionaries can reach Oyo, and the Oyo can choose if they want to convert. I made sure that they did, like the Ethiopians did OTL. For every example you give, there is an OTL example that proves it wrong.

Wow, wrong on so many counts. 00:17, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Hundreds or thousands, the Yoruba did not outnumber the Igbo and the others enough to subjugate them. I don't know where you got your statistics from- mine say that the Yoruba were the most populous- but outnumbered the Igbo only about 4:3, and the Madinka 2:1.
 * 2) Mali WAS stronger- that's not even a question. Larger population, similar technology- less centralized, but FAR richer. I have NO CLUE where you are getting your stats from, but they are totally incorrect.
 * 3) Even if they were not they would still be strong enough that you CANNOT force a land route through their territory OR dominate it. And as for sea routes, the opposing navies- like that of Venice- are way more advanced. Again; CANOES.
 * 4) I don't know what you mean here- I said that some of your land had a Igbo, Madinka, and Akan ethnicites. Then I said that you could not subjugate them.
 * 5) Mali isn't the Madinka homeland in 1400. It was AFTER they caused the FALL of the Mali Empire- in some 150 years- that they moved into that area. Currently, they are much closer to you (not directly on your lands but certainly a sizable portion of their population).
 * 6) Far above, actually. Please note again- Bonoman, Oyo, Axum, Songhai- they all fell OTL for ONE reason. The Muslims. Until the 1800s, when the Europeans came in- your lands were Muslim. Same shit's happening ATL, without some serious cataclysm, because like or not they ARE stronger than you overall.
 * 7) Which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT reason why converting to Catholicism is stupid!
 * 8) No missionaries from Europe yet.
 * 9) The more powerful Muslims are on your borders and ARE trying to convert you.
 * 10) Ethiopia was different- they converted under Axum, before the foundation of Islam. It spread south via the Byzantines. There are NO major Christian, forget Catholic, powers near Oyo- THERE ARE Muslim ones.
 * 11) Basically, my point is, if you open your nation to Islam more, your nation is perfectly plausible- so far, eventually, with your expansion, the other tribes will revolt. But a Catholic nation in West Africa?
 * 12) Annoys the Muslims.
 * 13) Has no reason to occur.
 * 14) And makes it impossible to have a proper land trade route North.

Let's begin.
 * 1) Historically, the Yoruba were the largest, and the Igbo were contained within the area of Benin, which is OTL Igboland. ATL, the Yoruba expanded farther west to expand their settlements, while the NPC Igbo remained in their location. So ATL-wise, the Yoruba are bigger than the Igbo. Plus, Oyo is located on the western end of Igboland, meaning that there are either a handful or no Igbo in my lands, making them a minority if that. As for the Mandinka, they moved further south OTL after the fall of Mali, since at the time, the region wasn't heavily settled. However, a map by the Brits only goes to prove that the Mandinka reside in the fringes of my empire, and are thus a minority. Your using modern statistics which have no bearing on a time before the disruption of the demographics of the time.
 * 2) I believe I told you in chat that I was wrong. You were there but you didn't respond. But Mali got its gold from southern West Africa, where it was mined. The West Africans sold the gold to Mali, who exchanged it salt. From there, the gold went north to Europe and the Middle East. So in reality, all Mali has too its name is salt (still very valuable), but I control the flow of gold.
 * 3) You completely ignored my earier points. I stopped building canoes when I started building larger (read, NON-EUROPEAN) ships with sails. I have canoes (war canoes at that) which are still larger than those used by Mali's river canoes. The may be canoes, but for the third time, they were (OTL and ATL) as big and as deep as longships. Again; LONGSHIPS.
 * 4) I don't even know what is going on, but all I can say is that this map shows that only the Akan lay in my way. And unlike the unified Oyo, the Akan were divided into numerous petty kingdoms, and aren't even shown on the map because none formed a major empire with the exception of inland Bonoman, and the recent Ashanti Empire. The Ashanti only gained a coastline after defeating the petty kingdom of Denkyira, which itself was not that powerful. So I have Akan in my lands, but they aren't a major threat. If they did arise, then they'd be shut down swiftly.
 * 5) Once again I would direct you to the map I brought up. They moved south only after Mali's fall (as you and I already mentioned), but that only proves my point that the Mandinka aren't the numerous in my lands since most of them still reside within Mali, which is still intact.
 * 6) Oyo fell because the neighboring Nupe (fellow Yoruba) took over the kingdom. Bonoman fell because the Ashanti rose in their place and took over. Axum fell because Queen Yodit (Jewish) invaded and cut Axum off from the world leading to a dark age (she is directly responsible for Ethiopia's backwardness). Songhai fell because Morocco sought to control the lucrutive gold trade, and Songhai was already Muslim.
 * 7) I already made the decision to convert to Islam since its safer and closer to Oyo. Plus, Oyo was never converted by the Muslims, nor did they ever try even though Oyo was close to Mali. This was something I already explained two weeks ago, and which the French even recorded in the 1600s when the visited the universities of Oyo-Ile. They stated only a handful Muslims were in Oyo, and they only served to teach the people algebra, nothing more.
 * 8) Converting to Islam will only aid my nation (henceforth my late and admitted needed decision). It'll permit me to justify my expansion to sate the mods, and allow me to expand violently if needed.

Even if you think converting to Christianity is possible, which it may barely be, the fact that Oyo would even want to is implausible and ASB. Why would a nation dominated by another religion, and surrounded by that religion, convert to another, other then to distinguish themselves but inadvertently make their lives harder. You stated that states like Mali traded with Castile for years, and notice how Mali never converted to Christianity during their brief encounters. Your contact is even less, having just created a sea route to Castile, so you would have very little reason to convert to Christianity. It may be possible, but it's also implausible and a bad move as a player anyway. Mscoree (talk) 01:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo had several religions, none of them very dominant. In fact, the Yoruba religion was highly diverse, and as Wikipedia put it plainly, had no one founder. People worshipped as they went, and who they worshipped was their own deal. The belief varied from region to region, and thus, no one party dominated the other. Mali never converted because it was already Muslim. Where do you ever read of a Muslim nation converting to Christianity? Nowhere. Only animist nations, such as Oyo, ever did. In any case, I've made the decision to convert to Islam for plausibility's sake. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

I read these rants in PMII, so I really don't want to read them again. Two things:

1. No one should even be thinking of new world exploration right now, save the Chinese Voyage spinoff. Not the Malmuks, not the Africans. No one. Last time I checked, the rules only allow for OTL events/discoveries to happen at max 5 years prior to OTL.

2. If this is going to cause problems, the mods can do do new world exploration just like nuclear weapons and space ships - they pick the nations. Which would, frankly, work better and more smoothly.

Cour *talk* 20:14, March 10, 2014 (UTC) 21:20, March 10, 2014 (UTC) Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:53, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) The Yoruba did outnumber the other tribes but, again, not so significantly that a general uprising could be contained. You've got maybe 75% of the population (my other stats were for the total population, this is just the Oyo population itself) in the Yoruba- 25% is still a sizable and significantly destabilzing minority. What's more, the Madinka moved NORTH after the fall of Mali- they caused it, by encroaching on Malian territory. But that was 150 years after the POD- hasn't happened yet. As of the 1450s, the Madinka are square bang on your territory.
 * 2) My bad there- didn't see that.
 * 3) STILL not a match for the traders of Venice or England, who made such switches hundreds of years ago. So regardless, your ships are slower and would lose in an actual fight. Don't piss off the English.
 * No, because a combined general uprising is beyond the power of any pre-modern government to contain. Before we had the ability to kill hundreds of people in a few minutes, it would be impossible for a revolt of even 5% of the population to be properly contained.
 * 1) All of those nations were weakened before the actual fall due to Islam. The Oyo are the only ones where the fall, too, was not directly orchestrated by the Muslims. The Songhai were NOT Muslim- that was the Mali, which came after them- and the Morrocans who attacked were MUSLIMS, who had been encroaching on their territory for some time. Axum fell after a long series of border wars with the Muslims from Arabia. Bonoman was weak from wars the Muslims first.
 * No, they moved NORTH after the fall of the Mali- the Mali fell OTL due to the raids from the Madinka moving north!
 * 1) Yeah, education in Africa was historically a lot better than it is currently.
 * 2) Good.
 * 1) At this time, most of the region (once again it was called Yorubaland for a reason) was unsettled, or setted by the Yoruba. The Mandinka live farther to the northwest, and are nowhere near my lands with the exception of my small border with Mali. And the Mali ARE Mandinka. Most of their population was Mandinka, and only the lands to the southwest of Mali are Mandinka. Everything south of them is Akan (OTL Ghana).
 * 2) Understood.
 * 3) I never said they were the same strength as European ships. And once again, you don't know what my ships are capable of, and are going solely on personal opinion rather than fact. I never published any details of the ships, so you have nothing to compare my ships to other than the fact that they are the same size as carracks and galleons. And speed is entirely dependent on size and the number of sails. As for England, their navy was garbage in the 1450s, and wasn't a match to anyone OTL. In fact, the English only began to build better ships in thr 1500s, but even then they were constained purely due to the fact they were destitute as a nation because Europe isolated them after Henry VIII split from the Catholic Church. Everyone hated them. Even in ATL, England's navy is still no match for any of the other nations despite the growth. Too be honest, both Oyo and England are on the same level navy-wise purely because the Castillians burned down the English navy before the game's start, forcing the English to start from the beginning, long before they established a true shipbuilding industry (which only emerged under Henry VIII and Elizabeth I).
 * 4) There have been countless uprisings throughout medieval history, and none of them turned out well for the peasents. The last man to stand up to the English king was actually killed when he and the King of England came close to "negotiate" the terms for peace. Even the Hussites who put up a good fight were eventually massacured to a man by the Germans and the Austrians. There has never (as for as I know) been a successful uprising by the serfs in any medieval nation, with the first such to succede taking place in France. In 1783. Containing a rebellion, especially when I have most of the population on my side, is well within my means.
 * 5) Bonoman was never attacked by the Muslims. Ever. It was destroyed by the Ashanti, who themselves weren't even Muslim. Oyo was destroyed by a fellow Yoruba kingdom which wasn't Muslim, and that nation in turn was destroyed by the British, not the Muslims. Like I said before, the Muslims never advanced south of Sokoto, which was the capital of the Sokoto Caliphate, and itself located in northern Nigeria, removed from the animist nations of southern Nigeria. On Songhai, it was indeed Muslim. Askia the Great was a Muslim, and though he didn't force his people to convert to Islam, he did enforce its protection in Songhai. The upper classes of Songhai were Muslims, while a considerable portion of the lower classes stuck to their traditional beliefs. But for the most part, Songhai was a Muslim nation. In fact, the second sentence in Songhai's Wikipedia page states, and I quote: "From the mid-15th to the late 16th century, Songhai was one of the largest Islamic empires in history."
 * 6) I'm not trying to be rude Guns, but I don't know where your getting your information from. Mali didn't collapse from Mandinka raids north, as its population was Mandinka. The British maps of the region in the 1800s that I showed not to long ago even call the land of Mali "Mandingo", showing that it was the Mandinka homeland. Mali collapsed because the last Emperor of Mali had three sons who fought amoungst themselves, and allowed the city of Gao (the capital of Songhai) to break away, and eventually invade and conquer Mali as it descended into civil war. Mali fell from the inside, not from the outside.
 * 7) True that.
 * 8) I suppose so.
 * I agree, I even suggested a method of doing such things, which was simple. However it was not taken onboard in any manner. Kunarian TALK 20:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't ranting, stating my defense. As for new world exploration, I don't think that was the goal of anyone until 1500. And finally, the latter suggestion would be rather unfair to the players who have spent their time developing their navies for that purpose. For instance, the mods would most likely select Collie because his nation is Portugal (and a fellow mod), even though Collie hasn't focused on developing his navy. On the other hand, Feud would probably be passed over even though making his navy a first-class force was his goal. I believe that the mods should stay out of the matter of who discovers what, since most explorations were by mistake, and many nations are better placed to find these new lands as opposed to the ones the mods may pick (most of whom I have a strong feeling would be European like the last game). Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:09, March 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * One by one.
 * One by one.


 * There's a reason that some nations are more likely to discover the new world than others. And mod intervention would help prevent everyone from discovering and colonizing within a year or two of each other. It goes unspoken that this would lead to chaos and a 'Scramble for America' (which would no doubt be riddled with ASB claims). - Guns 02:49, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Viva, you are not only advocating ASB on this talk page, again, but are making an ass of yourself. Cut it out. Lordganon (talk) 10:32, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't start the argument so I don't know why your pinning this on me, plus, let's just be honest here, your claim of ASB is tenious at best. All I'm advocating is the actual usage of existing edvidance to back my claims. I don't see whats wrong with that. And I don't know why you and the others fear looking at the links which say your wrong (seriously Guns just said Songhai wasn't Muslim, when the very second sentence of its Wikipedia page says it was one of the largest ISLAMIC empires in history). Don't call it ASB unless you have proof its ASB. Everything I've said is backed by proof. Most of what Guns said I've just disproved. I've proven everything I've said is both plausible and accurate. You have not. And please tell me LG, since your so intelligent (not an insult), why is it when the others provide information with no sources and routinuely proven they are wrong (as Guns just did), called plausible and creditable, but when I provide sources, and regularly research the regions I'm working in, I'm called ASB and making an a** out of myself? I mean, what are you guys afraid of? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:45, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I quoted multiple sources, actually, and you disproved nothing.

Unfortunately, a large part of my argument was somehow deleted?

See where it says " One by one."?That was me, actually, not LG.

I had a bunch of sources in there too, but I can't undo that without deleting his post, so...

About the Songhai- meant Ghana. My bad there. Still in the original Malian territory, so it makes no difference. Their fall WAS caused by Muslims. Not even a question...

Actually, no. Very little you said was plausible OR accurate.

And it's "you're", not "your".

We're afraid of you saying idiotic things like that. We've all quoted a number of sources, no one else agrees with you- generally, in this situation, it means that you're wrong. Stop with the Africawank.

21:38, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, if your post was accidently deleted, just go into the page history, open that edition of the page, and copy it back to where it was I can do it for you if you want. Mscoree (talk) 22:16, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it looks like it might still be there, although you signed with five tildes instead of four. Mscoree (talk) 22:21, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

What sources did you use? All of the sources I used I linked you too. I didn't ask about the One by one thing. I thought it was a troll so I ignored it. I thought you meant in the context that the nations were destroyed by crusading Muslims, but that point is moot now. Everything I said came from a history book, research site, or publication on the continent, all from people who study Africa for a living. So what I said was plausible and accurate, unless you can prove otherwise. I don't care about grammar right now, so the point is moot. The people who don't agree with me are the same ones who say Songhai wasn't Muslim (even though it was), or that there were 3,000 tribes in Africa in the 1400s (even though there weren't as those were formed in the 1600s). So in the situation, the guy who study's Africa routinuely and actually links his sources is generally correct, unless of course, you can prove otherwise. I'll be an Africawank because I can prove said wank is plausible. You cannot. I mean, you said Mali wasn't Mandinka even though from its own medieval constitution, the people referred to themselves as the Mande. They were Mandinka. When you make such a massive assertion that a major empire wasn't what it says it was, even though historians say they were, how on earth can you tell me anything about a continent you just proved you know nothing about? That, Guns, was idiotic, far from anything I've said thus far. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:02, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Overall, Viva, you haven't proven Guns wrong on anything - more or less the opposite is true, actually. Your bias on the matter is so incredibly obvious that it disturbs me. And here I thought you had gotten better about it. Guess not.

You're trying to get a "wank" in without plausibility. ASB.

And, you're still acting like an ass here. Cut it out. Final warning.

Lordganon (talk) 12:13, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

I Have a Question
If I quit as the Ashikaga state can I come back and pick a new nation to play as in pm3 - Scarlet (aka Shadow)

Umm... not really. Cour *talk* 20:05, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Venetian Empire
Total: 91
 * Location: 10
 * 10 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 10 (Aegina) + 10 (Athens) + 10 (Candia) + 10 (Corfu) + 10 (Kaffa) + 10 (Ragusa) = 80/8 = 10
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 1 (Attackers) + 1 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 28
 * 4 (Venice, L) + 4 (Epirus, L) + 3 (Aegina, LV) + 3 (Athens, LV) + 3 (Candia, LV) + 3 (Corfu, LV) + 3 (Kaffa, LV) + 3 (Ragusa, LV) + 1 (Naxos, SV) + 1 (Negroponte, SV) = 28
 * Military Development: 9
 * 16 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 8 (Aegina) + 8 (Athens) + 0 (Candia) + 20 (Corfu) + 8 (Kaffa) + 8 (Ragusa) = 88/10 = 8.8 = ~9
 * Economic Development: 10
 * 6 (Venice) + 12 (Epirus) + 14 (Aegina) + 14 (Athens) + 12 (Candia) + 2 (Corfu) + 14 (Kaffa) + 12 (Ragusa) = 74/10 = 7.4 = ~7 +3 (Venice, Kaffa) = 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 0 (Defenders only)
 * 5 (Ragusa)
 * Motive: 13
 * 3 (Economic) + 5 (Democratic Support) + 5 (High Morale) = 13
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit count: 1632
 * UTC: 10:26 = 1*2*6 = 12
 * Total: 1632/12*pi (3.14159265359) = 427.25660088824
 * Nation Age: -1
 * -15 (Venice, Antique) + 0 (Epirus, Maturing) + 5 (Aegina, Mature) + 0 (Athens, Maturing) + -5 (Candia, Young) + 5 (Corfu, Mature) + 0 (Kaffa, Maturing) + 5 (Ragusa, Mature) = -5/8 = -0.625 = ~-1
 * Population: 7
 * 7 (7 digits) = 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -6
 * -6 (6 vassals)

Morocco
Total: 59 x 1.25 = 73.75
 * Location: 25
 * 25 (Morocco) = 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 2 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 4
 * 4 (Morocco, L) = 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/88 = 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/74 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * 5 (Morocco)
 * Motive: -7
 * 8 (Defend, not cripple) + -10 (Government not supported) + -5 (Low morale) = -7
 * Chance: 6
 * Nation Age: 5
 * 5 (Morocco, Mature) = 5
 * Population: 9
 * 7 (7 digits) + 2 (larger by less than 5) = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
Venetian Victory


 * ((91/(73.75+91))*2)-1 = 0.1047040971168437
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*1)) = 0.0523520485584219 = 5% (one year)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.0785280728376328 = 8% (two years)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 0.0872534142640364 = 9% (three years)

Discussion
DO NOT EDIT. I or an agreed mod shall edit the algorithm. Please comment if you wish to be added in some form. Kunarian TALK 12:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Im sure you have more population Quashi (talk) 16:41, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know I only have around 2 and a half million over my whole empire, as my page says. The Moroccans were powerful and able to resist Castile before they entered a period of civil unrest (they are in it now, as with OTL) and if Castile has around 4,500,000 just in Castile and they were able to resist that for a while then surely Morocco has something close to that. I'm pretty sure that they have more in simple terms. Kunarian TALK 17:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Alteration to Expansion Rates
Hey, I wanted to suggest the alteration of the expansion rules, to all you to take territory in the black through military campaigns, you know, like in OTL. I don't recall reading anywhere where nations peacefully expanded into unknown lands by tiny amounts, taking hundreds of years to grow to the size of Texas. That just doesn't make any sense. Most of the large empire in history expanded to conquests (like Russia, the Mongols, Rome, China, United States, Ethiopia, Egypt, so on and so on), and did so in short amounts of time. You could slap a greater penalty onto the expansion rates, such as -2 or -3 for every armed expansion. The expansion rate would be double or triple that of the peaceful expansion, but you'd suffer more issues since you just conquered a chunk of some tribe's land. Just a thought. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:50, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the expansion stuff is not that easily solved. We have to take into account the power of the nation doing the expansion, the population of the land being expanded into, and what kind of land it is. For example, if a very powerful nation expands into a desert with a zero population and owned all the habitable land around it (ex: Australia) it would be fairly easy to take the remainder in a short period of time. However, if a mediocre nation with little to no present influence in the area attempted to do the same, it would be harder.

18:27, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Understandable. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:04, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Viva, when the Tsardom of Russia was established they expanded an average of 35,000 square kilometers per year into Siberia. Also, I calculated how many square kilometers one pixel on the map is equivalent to, it's ~72 square kilometers. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Ottoman-Georgian Land Transfer
Chris - as I couldn't find a user page for you, I'll just post a map of the "land corridor" I'm asking for here. The area I'd like to purchase is in burnt orange; it roughly corresponds to the area east of Lake Van. I imagine the area is sparsely populated at this point in time, but I would of course be willing to repatriate any Turks in the corridor to the western side of the border line at my own expense, and would grant your merchants trade access through the corridor. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:52, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes that looks fair (after all, the Empire probably wouldn't have won if it wasn't for the Georgians in the coalition; we owe you something). Agreed. ChrisL123 (talk) 23:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Spread of movable type printing
Okay I think we need to manage this carefully, especially as in PM3 there seems to be a habit of everyone suddenly getting all the technology.

In OTL, the spread of Movable type printing was SLOW. I mean so slow that by 1890, it still wasn't present in Brazil, most of Africa, a lot of Asia and hadn't even spread to most of the Balkans or Ukraine, Belarus and such.

Considering how slowly it spreads, the country of origin ( which it looks like there might be two atm, both Venice and Pskov, fun things happen ) would have a monopoly for about 20 years as it spreads around their nation (NOT THEIR VASSALS).


 * Was invented in Mainz, followed by another independent design in Venice. Mscoree (talk)
 * ummm...are you guys forgetting somebody here? Pskov invented the press aswell...-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 16:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * No you didn't. It's been retconned, as I've said many times. Mscoree (talk) 18:11, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was told that Hesse was getting the Printing Press. Blocky858 (talk) 20:50, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

After the 20 year start-up period, just like in OTL, it'd spread to about 3 nations adjascent to the country of origin (again not to their vassals), these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated neighbours too. During this time the country of origin can spread the technology to its vassals that share a land border with it.

After this it would take about 10 more years to spread to 6 more nations, these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated nations within the trade range of the current holders of the technology. During this period the country of origin can spread it to all their vassals and the first takers can spread it to their vassals that share a land border with them.

Then another 10 years later, it spreads again. Then there's a period of stagnation in the spread. And so on and so forth.

I'll make a table because I really think this needs to be managed carefully so we can enjoy the realism and constraints that do actually come with such developing technologies.

Keep in mind the spread might not be to player nations, but to relavently advanced nations

I really suggest we adopt this or we'll miss out on the interesting situations that arise out of such constraints rather than having every nation doing everything itself. This will also encourage players to work together to make interesting history.

Of course the decision upon where printing spread should happen upon reaching the next stage, because players may be able to change their policies to get the technology. We should not decide eveyrthing for all the stages immediately as that removes part of the fun. Kunarian TALK 10:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Kunarian that technology needs to be regulated to some degree. Maybe not just for printing presses, but for all major technologies. I think this system might be more of a guideline then a set-in-stone system, regulated by the moderators for implausibility, but it is definitely a start. Mscoree (talk) 19:59, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, however this system is simple and makes life easy without being annoyingly fiddly. Kunarian TALK 20:04, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I also think this would be a great idea, however in a map game, there is a fine line between overregulating and having too many rules, and having too few rules on this. When it comes to technologies, discoveries, etc, I think there should be a system of this sort where it is simple and easy to work with, but prevents loads of ASBdom. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * Exactly, this doesn't have a million special rules or a group of requirements that everyone will work towards (breaking the RP and making the game more about min-maxing). It is just a case of regulating the spread of technology so that it spreads in a similar fashion to how it did in real life, rather than the rather predictable "1440: one nation has a printing press, 1450: every nation on earth has one!" that Principia Moderni can sometimes fall ill to. Kunarian TALK 21:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

My main problem is with the inital spread. You see, what if it is a great mighty nations surrounded by a bunch of nations of peasants and weak economies? I think it should spread to major trade partners and powerful nations after leaving the mother nation. Trade can take things really far, y'know?

21:30, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Scraw, althought the above model makes sense in general. For Mainz for example, they are surrounded by small states of the Holy Roman Empire, so it would take decades for the printing press to leave central Germany. In this specific case you'd think it might spread to Austria, given that Mainz is one of their biggest allies and nearly a vassal at this point, or at least to some of the major states of Germany. I think we should use this model, but also consider spreading the invention manually through moderator events at times, following any OTL trends. Mscoree (talk) 22:43, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Um, sorry, but the The printing press didn't spread slowly, it was only limited by the travelling technology of the time. So I don't think this idea makes much sense, Fed (talk) 23:08, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * So it spread slowly. As it was limited by the travelling technology of the time. So it makes perfect sense. Kunarian TALK 23:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also can I just say that if you don't have any system in place soon, then it'll become unmanageable. If you won't accept a perfectly logical and reasonable system then at least present one of your own. Kunarian TALK 23:14, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * A system can still be useful. Perhaps this GIF will help us adjust it. Mscoree (talk) 23:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I used the gif to make it. This is the closest you can get to it. Kunarian TALK 06:38, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

You're giving 15 HRE states and Austria a press by 1500, while IOTL all of the capitals of Western Europe had aress by this time. Fed (talk) 12:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm getting the feeling you haven't read any of this. If we look at the two origins that are appearing ATL (from Mainz and Venice) then we end up with something (assuming nothing changes in game, which it will almost certainly) like this:
 * 1440: Mainz, Venice
 * 1460: Mainz, Venice (and adjacent vassals), Austria, Byzantine Empire, Milan
 * 1470: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and adjacent vassals), Byzantine Empire (and adjacent vassals), Milan (and adjacent vassals), Hungary, Italy, Castile, England, UNC, Brabrant-Holland
 * 1480: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and adjacent vassals), Italy (and adjacent vassals), Castile (and adjacent vassals), England (and adjacent vassals), UNC (and adjacent vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and adjacent vassals), Bavaria, Prussia, Aragon, Portugal, France, Provence
 * 1490: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and adjacent vassals), Prussia (and adjacent vassals), Aragon (and adjacent vassals), Portugal (and adjacent vassals), France (and adjacent vassals), Provence (and adjacent vassals)
 * 1500: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and vassals), Prussia (and vassals), Aragon (and vassals), Portugal (and vassals), France (and vassals), Provence (and vassals)
 * If I remember Fed, England, Castile, France and the UNC aren't 15 HRE states, so there goes that theory of yours. AND LOOK! Practically all of Western Europe has printing presses, shock. and. horror. It spreads not to the person next to them like some dead snail being kicked along as slowly as possible like you suggest, but along logical lines of trade and vassalage. Obviously the mods should make minor changes (such as filling in all the minor states that are unconnected to players so that they get them) but shouldn't be throwing the printing press around as they see fit nor planning a very long OTL based line of nations that shall and shall not get it when and where.


 * Further the spread is gradual and easy to track. Compared to what a adhoc on the go player spread will be, which is everyone has one in their back garden before the end of the year. And a completed mod iron fisted direction destroys player creativity and means that we might as well not play and just go get out a game of Risk, because removing player influence on the soft side of the game (technology and culture) turns this into a war game only with mods telling you what you'll be doing outside of wars. I can play a war game anytime, and I won't waste time on a war game online where I might get f'd over because OTL or a mod says so. Kunarian TALK 12:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I sound a bit sharp but I get a bit fed up when I present a system that does exactly what OTL does and then someone doesn't read or look at what I've done and blurts out falacies. That sort of thing really rubs me up the wrong way. Kunarian TALK 13:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now adjusted as Fed recommended, I think this system will work very well and be very plausible. We can try out it out on the printing press and see how it goes. Mscoree (talk) 18:15, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

No need to be rude. I did a mistake, so sorry, Your Almighty Highness. May I apologise or are you preparing the execution? Fed (talk) 18:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look I'm sorry I don't want to have an issue, I just got riled up and didn't control myself. Kunarian TALK 22:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo (Attacker)
Total: 100*125
 * Location: +20
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Nations: Oyo (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +16
 * Economic Development: +14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +16 (+7 +4 +5)
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit count: 4,755
 * UTC: 2*2*1*2 = 8
 * Total: 4755/8*pi = 1867.284133477556
 * Nation Age: 0 (1400)
 * Population: +9 (5,710,442)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Benin (Defender)
Total: 63
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Benin (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +3
 * Economic Development: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: +2
 * Nation Age: 0 (1180)
 * Population: +7 (2,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * (125/(63+125)*2)-1 = 0.3297872340425532
 * (32.9)*(1-1/(2*7)) = 30.55%

Oyo can claim 30.55% of Benin.

Georgian-Jochid Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 69
 * Location: 17
 * 20 (Georgia) + 20 (Armenia) + 15 (Gordyene) + 15 (Adiabene) + 15 (Ardalan) + 15 (Golden Horde) = 100/6 = 16.667 ~= 17
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * 1 (attacking) + 2 (central coordination) + 2 (high ground)
 * Nations: 4 (Georgia, L) + 3 (Armenia, LV) + 3 (Gordyene, LV) + 3 (Adiabene, LV) + 3 (Ardalan, LV) + 4 (Golden Horde, L) + 1 (Adyghea, SV) = 21/4 = 5.25 ~= 5
 * Military Development: 62/5 = 12.4 ~= 12
 * 12 (Georgia) + 14 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 6 (Jochid Ulus) = 62
 * Economic Development: 72/5 = 14.4 ~= 14
 * 10 (Georgia) + 10 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 16 (Jochid Ulus) + 6 (Mamluk aid per Treaty of Adana) = 72
 * Expansion: -15 (Georgia: 1426, 1427, 1433, 1434; Jochid Ulus: 11 turns over past 15 years)
 * Infrastructure: 0 (defender only)
 * Motive: 7 (economic + non-democratic governments supported by people)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.0 6 0
 * Nation Age: -2
 * 0 (Georgia: maturing nation, 1412) + 0 (Armenia: maturing nation, 1412) - 5 (Gordyene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Adiabene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Ardalan: young nation, 1427) + 5 (Jochid Ulus: mature nation, 1440s) = -10/6 = 1.667 ~= 2
 * Population: 17 (7 digits + 10 for 5x superiority: Georgian coalition has 1.35M, Jochid Ulus should have ~4.6M, Azerbaijan has 1.175M)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2 (Georgia and Armenia - 1426)
 * Vassals and Puppets: -5 (2 vassals and 1 puppet)

Sultanate of Azerbaijan (Defender)
Total: 54
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (central coordination)
 * Nations: 4 (Azerbaijan, L) = 4/21 = 0.2 ~= 0
 * Military Development: 5/62 ~= 0
 * Economic Development: 5/72 ~= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive: 7
 * 8 (defending heartland from non-fatal attack) + 4 (non-democratic government supported by people) - 5 (low troop morale: lower development numbers on all fronts and chance below 1)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.06 0
 * Nation Age: 0 (maturing nation - 1414)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
If my calculations are correct, the Georgian-Jochid Ulus coalition should win the war and can take up to 12.20% of Azerbaijan, depending on the war's duration. Assuming the war takes 3 years, the Georgia-Jochid coalition can take 10.17% of Azerbaijan.
 * ((69/(54+69))*2)-1 = [(69/123)*2]-1 = (.5610 * 2) - 1 = 1.1220 - 1 = .1220 = 12.20%
 * (12.20%)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 12.20% * (1-[1/6]) = 12.20% * (5/6) = 10.17%

Discussion
Mods - I went ahead and constructed the algorithm for my war to give you a starting point. Depending on who else joins the conflict, the numbers here may change. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Adjusted for Jochid Ulus' entry into the war and for provisions of the Treaty of Adana. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:29, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

So, given that my coalition will have fought for 3 years, here's my proposed territory change. The burnt orange portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to Georgia, while the dark yellow portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to the Jochid Ulus. You can count pixels if you're curious - 10.17% of Azerbaijan is 267 pixels, which I've split evenly between myself and the Ulus (and yes, I'm OCD enough that I actually counted pixels). If I can get a mod's approval for this, we can wrap the war up quickly and easily. TankOfMidgets (talk) 17:53, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Castile (Attacker)
Total: 133
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Castile (L), Granada (MV), Cyprus (MV), Austria (L), Luxembourg (M), Brandenburg (M), Bohemia (M), Moravia (M), Venice (L), Aegina (MV), Athens (MV), Candia (MV), Corfu (MV), Kaffa(MV), Ragusa (MV), Naxos (MV), Negroponte (MV) 62/4 = 16
 * Military Development: 116/10 =12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 16
 * Aegina: 8
 * Athens: 8
 * Candia: 0
 * Corfu: 20
 * Kaffa: 8
 * Ragusa: 8
 * Economic Development: 121/10 = 12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 6
 * Aegina: 14
 * Athens: 14
 * Candia: 12
 * Corfu: 2
 * Kaffa: 12
 * Ragusa: 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Castile: 5
 * Granada: 5
 * Cyprus: -5
 * Population: +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Morocco (Defender)
Total: 79
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Morocco (L) = 4, 0
 * Military Development: 10, 0
 * Economic Development: 10, 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 10
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Vassals and Puppets: 1.25

Discussion
'''Somebody check this please?? -Feud'''

You need to add in Venice. Kunarian TALK 06:51, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I will add Venice soon, but just so you know, Feud and I agreed I will be granted the city of Melilla as a Gibraltar-sized port city on the coast of Morocco. Any other acquisitions you wish can be granted. Mscoree (talk) 10:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't because if you look at my earlier war with morocco I conquered it already. Kunarian TALK 12:24, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here's a map of land you can and cannot take from Morocco because of the war I fought with them before this one: Sorry if this causes issues but I won't be giving up any of that land. Kunarian TALK 12:28, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kun we agreed Morocco is mine, and taking away large portions of Morocco which are originally is mine isnt okay. Undercutting my influence in the Area isny okay in the slightest.

Also we didnt take the whole country but Kun i hope you realize that the land near Tangiers i enumerated before that i wanted that land... your seriously making it ridiculously hard for me to take jack shit When ive led 2 out of the three wars against morocco.

I'm not wanting to cause conflict but I declared war prior to this war and took those lands. As of that war they are mine, end of. But I am willing to do is exchange those lands for something of equal worth, I don't want to undercut your influence but I can't give them up for nothing. I won't hold them against you or refuse a reasonable exchange, but I'm not giving up lands that took me three years to take without at least equal compensation. Kunarian TALK 15:54, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ive Resolved to take the nice long segement next to your two areas on the atlantic. I Would be willing to purchase the areas under Tangiers though.
 * Purchase it for what? if soft play such as money was worth anything in the hard aspects of the game I would consent but I need some land in exchange, or assistance in taking land. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind exchanging Melilla for an area of equal size on the coast? Mscoree (talk) 17:47, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I might exchange it for that, it depends on the division of Morocco and the lands you offer. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can pick any area of equal size to replace the one I'm taking, plus some more lands depending on what we obtain now in this third war. Mscoree (talk) 18:06, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, Venice still needs to be added, we could have 20% of the land or more. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Final division, including the lands gained in Venices war, asuming we get 20% or more with the addition of Venice with vassal support. Kunarian TALK 20:26, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Moscow Land Purchase
We offer to purchase this plot of land (Land wanted is in green). We offer 5,000 Zolotnik coins for the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

I agree with your offer, since I do not need that land. <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.8em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Razor  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.8em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;"> -  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px yellow, 0 0 1em #0FF, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.4em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">the Razor    01:49, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Feud called this implausible on chat, and I'm inclined to agree. You're not selling half of your nation. Fed (talk) 12:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also 5000 Zolotniks is equivalent in modern worth to about 1,000,000 dollars. That's how much you might buy a very expensive house for. Not half a nation. Kunarian TALK 12:25, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be fair, he's selling an area that I estimate at first glance is probably around 500,000 square miles maximum, for about one dollar per square mile. This area is a sparsely inhabited section of northern Siberia of little to no use at the moment. In OTL the Louisiana Puchase was more than 800,000 square miles, and sold for only three cents per acre (forty two cents in modern dollars roughly), so about nineteen dollars per square mile. Adjusted to 1800's dollars, and factoring in the vast resources and significance in the central united States, as opposed to northern Siberia, I'd say it's not that bad of a deal. Mscoree (talk) 18:04, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Louisiana territory was sold to get rid of a financial burden on the French. It was colonized, then determined it wasn't worth keeping, whereas this is  half  the actual country.
 * But also while Louisiana was colonized to some degree, the area in question is basically just abandoned, aside from maybe a few towns and some natives. Perhaps Razor and Ed can adjust the borders slightly to a more plausible level if there are disagreements. Mscoree (talk) 18:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I knew the Louisiana purchase would be brought up. Louisiana was a colony, with under 10,000 inhabitants of white nature, that was going to be lost one way ornanother in the next ten years, served absolutely no economic or military purpose after the fall of Haiti and was, all in all, useless. IIRC, the territory you're selling holds several cities (Ustyug, Vologda), is relatively populated (today that area holds a few million inhabitants), and it's part of Novgorod's heartland; it's been Novgorodan since Kievian Rus'. Very different from Louisiana. Fed (talk) 18:45, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. To be honest when Ed came to me with this original idea I had no idea he was taking so much, which is why I'd recommend he takes less. As for the concept itself, I think it's fine. Mscoree (talk) 19:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I edited the map so there is less land in the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Also I own Ustyug and Vologda and they both belonged to Muscovy prior to this purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Future plans
On a completely unrelated note to everything, I hope I can prove to people in this game that I would be Mod material. I love PM, and would happily mod for the next PM4 (although I would probably not play due to time commitment issues I see in the future combined with being able to be a better unbiased mod), I would have tried to put myself forwards to mod for this if I felt well enough at the time but I didn't.

However on a side note, I would just say that if I ever decide to leave as Venice, I would almost certainly act as an informal mod or put myself forwards to mod because I think that I would be able to do a pretty good job. The effort I put into Venice would go into making mod events and replying to players and I would not want to leave this game (co-operative timeline as I call it) with one less contributer. However i don't think I could do it atm because I'd not have enough time and Venice, being a main nation in history, could cause me problems with accusations of bias. So for the now I'll do Venice only.

I just want to put this out there because to be honest, a statement of intent helps people mull the thoughts over before it happens and so people can be aware of it and assess me before anything does occur. So reply or not, or just read. I'm just speaking my mind. Kunarian TALK 13:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the topic of Kun as mod, I'd have to agree. Kun has quite helpful, friendly, kind, etc. while pointing out implausibility and sharing my goal of making this game balanced between power-gaming and role-playing, not an easy task. The posts he posts as Venice are very detailed and plausible and he shows a great understanding of history at the time. However, I believe this is his first game, and we'd need to wait and see if Kun is truly mod material over the next batch of turns. Mod events are some of my favorite parts of a Map Game, and I believe Kun will excel in that category. If a vote comes out when Kun has been active in-game for longer, I'd definately support him. Macedon_Shield.png<font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!! Rome_Shield.png
 * On a quick fact check, this is my third Principia Moderni nation, I've played Venice in PM1, Prussia in PM2 and Venice again. Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Kunarian is a very helpful and friendly player. he shows initiative by thinking through systems for inventions, and it seems he would be a nice addition. Mscoree (talk) 14:10, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I support Kun as a mod. He's plausible and tries to ensure everyone else is without bias. He uses facts and potential exceptions to adhere to OTL while also making way for the possibility for ATL to take place. I vote for Kun as mod. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:08, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I approve. 9/10 would vote for.

20:40, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think Kun would be a very good mod too, but after today's debate about Morocco I think the mod system should be reorganised in order to avoid any Nova-like cases again.

Unable to post
I will be offline due to an unforeseen commitment, so will be unable to post until at least Easter. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

I may be able to take charge of your nation until that time. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">''BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

About A Mod Event I Want To Happen
Can you make a mod event where all the other states of japan attack me and I lose. I want toswitch my nation to Munster in Germany. - Scarlet (A.K.A Shadow)

Timurid Vassalization and what's wrong with it
With both Timurid players, I have noticed a problem with their vassalizations. They are all literally "We influence x for x turns of three". To me, this seems like a very implausible way to vassalize nations left and right. They do not even state what this influence is, so it's entirely possible that the "influence" is unrelated to the "vassalization". But rather than make that the main point, here is my main point. The Timurids, for both players and every turn, have implausibly expanded through vassalizing nations on their borders. They have not built alliances, not gained royal marriages, they do not even had trade rights in any of the nations, yet they are able to sway the Kings and Sultans and Rajas to become their vassals through "influence"? I believe some rules need to be established on vassalizing criteria that is a little more strict than allowing "We influence x for x turns out of x" to pass as plausible vassalization, and to punish those who have been doing this knowing fully well how unfair and implausible it is to players who actively seek to build relations with nations before they attempt to vassalize them. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 00:08, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I do agree, specifics are good. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:26, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I could try and argue with this, but due to recent private events I won't bother with it. I'm just going to say that if we are going to make vassalization actually plausible and fair, we shouldn't take in just the ratio of teritory between the one vassalizing and the one being vassalized. We should also take into consideration the difference in population and the difference in religion and culture. Now I know that this will hurt my plans, but I really do think we should do this in a fair way. Although I do have a question... If this was such a problem why didn't you say anything earlier?

I've tried with earlier talk page posts, and some of the very early vassalizations were fair, but many of the recent ones have not been at all (Some of Nova's too). When I've tried to talk to mods about it on chat without having to make a talk page, all I've gotten before was "Yeah, that's not right" and no follow up. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 12:10, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I see, the problem of mod inactivity is familiar. Although I will try to make my posts more detailed and plausible in order to both make the game fair and to make it more interesting.

That still ignores the fact that the Timurids vassalized most of Northern India in 30 years... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 13:02, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

France (Attacker)
Total: 88
 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations:France(L),Burgundy (LV),Bourbon (MV), Lorraine (MV), Berry (MV) = 13/4 = 3.25 = +3
 * Military Development: +30
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: -3
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +28 (16.900.000 - 18.000.000 Pop here Demographics of France 1400-1450)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -4

Tunisia (Defender)
Total: 54
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Tunisia (L) = 4
 * Military Development: 0?
 * Economic Development: 0?
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +8
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7 (A few people told me that tunis had 1 million to 1.5 million so whatdahell lol)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((88/(54+88))*2)-1 = 0,2394366197183099
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion

 * Only other mods may fix this, However if you are an user and want to point out a mistake please post it in user corrections. STILL NOT FINAL Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

User corrections

 * Anything you may wanna say

Ashikaga

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 1 (attacker)
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 41
 * Economy: 41
 * Infrastructure: 20
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 654
 * EST time: 9:13=9
 * Chance: 460/12*3.14159268 = 120.4277194
 * Expansion: -6
 * Motive: 7 (economic, high morale)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 7 (5 + larger)
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 255.42= 255

Hatekeyama

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 1 (defender)
 * Nations: Hatekeyama (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 0
 * UTC time: 9:15=9
 * Chance: 460/12*3.14159268 = 120.4277194
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 9 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 2
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 149.42= 149

Results

 * (255/(255+149))*2-1 = 1.5843
 * (58.43)*(1-1/(2*1))= 29.215