Forum:Help With "A Violent Peace"

Given that my previous Point of Divergence was too ASB, I am requesting help with my ATL, A Violent Peace. I also would like to delete the articles I had for it. so if someone could tell me how, that would be great. The timeline I want is somewhere in the 1900s, where an incredibly influential person is able to begin a slow, in some cases painful process of changing the way people think, as in racism, sexism, etc. What I am looking for is not Utopia, but improvement on OTL. Also, where the UN is more effective, aswell, but no to the point where no one will vote on the measures.

There could be the Axis winning WWI, but that is all too common, and it was for colonialism, if I'm not mistaken. Napoleonic victories are also common, but I doubt that would lead to advancements in the fields of human rights and such.

What are some suggestions?

Canuck2012 (talk) 22:33, July 18, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Really, there's no way that the UN could be made more effective without infringing on "national rights" - and there's no way that any power would let that happen.

Was the "Central Powers" in WWI, not the Axis.

Really, for it to be faster than otl really isn't possible. Heck, that it happened so fast otl was unlikely - and we are still seeing the impact of that one today.

Lordganon (talk) 23:04, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

As for deleting the articles, just add the template and it'll get done. Lordganon (talk) 23:04, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

That is true. I never really thought about it, but things have moved very quickly, compared to say centuries and millenia.

But what PoDs exist for the early 20th century? The Central Powers winning is overdone, the Axis winning is overdone. I'd like a PoD before 1950.

Could China reforming after the Boxer Rebellion have pretty far-reaching consequences? What about a reformed Russia?

24.222.254.109 00:09, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

For the outcome you desire, there's not really any possible PoD.

The Boxers and Russia in that manner could have far reaching consequences, but... not anywhere near in the manner you desire.

Lordganon (talk) 00:50, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think any PoD could really progress change in a considerable way, unless JFK survived the assassination. ~Can

Without the "boost" his assassination gave to Johnson, it would likely actually hurt things in that direction. Lordganon (talk) 01:02, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting. Most people say had he not been assassinated, there would have been more progress.

How about this for a first PoD:

The Boxers before the PoD had two aims: Destroy the Qing and Banish the Foreigners. After much hesitation, Empress Dowager Cixi decided NOT to support them, and instead backed foreign interests, as a political move.

OTL, after Imperial support, they went solely for ridding China of foreign influence. But without that support, they continued to fight the Empire.

The movement continued to spread and by the midyear, China was in full-out revolt. The Boxers took Beijing, splitting China into two halfs. Fighting continued until 1902, when the Qing fled to Taiwan.

The Boxers set up a republic, but democratic it wasn't. It was super-nationalist and foreigners were rounded up and mass-muredered.

An international force declared war on China, taking over Guangzhou, Shanghai, Hangzhou, and Dagu. The Boxers sued for peace, and apologized for the atrocities, signing yet another Unequal Treaty. The government than began to extend rights to foreigners, and China declined even further.

In 1905, a group of people dissatisfied with the position China was in, began a series of revolts throughout the country.

In Chongqing, the riots escalated, and surprisingly, the army in the region aided the rebels, triggering the Chinese Civil War.

The revolutionaries were led by Sun Yat-sen and Song Jiaoren. The victories in and around Chongqing caused the collapse of the Boxer Regime, and the creation of the Republic of China.

Thoughts?

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:32, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Most of the damage and deaths were because the "Empress" supported the Boxers and had the armies join them. The Imperial Army would likely destroy them here.

The powers at hand would not do such a thing - the "Open Door Policy" - and would not be anywhere nearly that quick.

Boxers were really only in Northern China.

The Qing wouldn't flee to Taiwan - not only is it a "no" in general, but it's also put of Japan by this point. Manchuria, or bust.

Sun and Song would not have survived the Boxers - and they certainly would not have been at that location.

Lordganon (talk) 01:45, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oops. Forgot Japan had Taiwan, cause of the First Sino-Japanese War.

Okay, the Boxer Rebellion is a complete and total failure. Howeve, foreign influence continues to suckle China dry, causing further dissent. Sun and Song form the Tongmenghui earlier, and in uprisings in wherever-they-were, overthrew the Qing in 1905.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:54, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

No rebellion would be that fast - and foreign powers may well be willing to help suppress it.

Lordganon (talk) 02:08, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

So if the Boxers are defeated in 1900, the Xinhai Revolution will still take place in 1911-1912? Is there any way that the revolution could take place earlier on?

Canuck2012 (talk) 14:25, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

If the Empress sides with the "foreigners," bet on the revolution occurring even later. Lordganon (talk) 05:38, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

But what could speed up the Xinhai Revolution?

And on another note, if Tsar Nicholas II, following the 1905 Revolution, gave up more power to the State Duma, could the Russian Revolution be prevented? Or is that just something that'll happen inevitably?

Canuck2012 (talk) 17:51, July 20, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Not much could speed it up. Doubt anything, really, could do it.

The Tsar actually did give them a lot of power - in theory. He just took it back within a couple of years.

The Revolution was not inevitable. If he had kept the reforms in place he'd have been fine.

Really, there are many, many factors that if removed from that equation would have prevented the Revolution.

Lordganon (talk) 23:03, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the Russian Revolution could occur, then end swiftly. There were two major points this could have happened:

A: Stalin could have been killed. Anywhere anytime. He was always in the front lines. One lucky shot from the Whites could've ended the Revolution right there.

B: If the train carrying Trotsky to the signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk had crashed, the Central Powers would not cease attacking Russia, and without having the assurance that the combat would only be between Whites and Reds, the Whites and Reds would be fighting each other and the Central Powers, and both sides would be weakened and the Reds would collapse in the end due to having to have so many defenses.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:48, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

...I did say that there was many factors.

And the second wouldn't do it - someone else would go.

Lordganon (talk) 02:50, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Chamberlain doesn't go easy on Germany in 1938. None of the powers were really prepared for war- but the Axis were worse off than the Allies. Also, USSR doesn't get involved- they can't gain any land from Chechoslovakia. But neither do they really care about felling Germany- the Allies will do it for them. As a result, they never became as great a power, because most of East Germany is NOT under their control. Earlier breakup. Also, no clod war, because America wouldn't get involved either- and thus never develop nukes (They would still be developed, only a bit later. Maybe against Japan.). Japan attacks, but Germany and Italy are in trouble by now and decide not to piss off the Americans. Britain and America collaborate to keep India and the Phillipines (respectively) out of Japanese hands. Again, Russia probably doesn't get involved. Nuke dropped on Toyko. Or Hiroshima. Or Osaka. Or Kyoto. Wherever. Japan falls. Capitalist pigs rule the Earth =D The Royal Guns (talk) 14:42, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

That's quite an interesting turn to WWII. Though, we'll have to wait and see what LG thinks. Plus, I kinda want an earlier PoD. But that could do.

How about this:

Empress Dowager Cixi continues fighting the Boxers, instead of OTL.

The Boxer Rebellion is crushed in 1900, with help from foreign powers.

Cixi continued to heavily prosecute dissidents and suspected revolutionaries. Cixi dissuaded any reform, which many Chinese viewed as vital to China's future.

After the defeat of the Qings in the Sino-Japanese War, the New Army was formed, under the command of a Yuan Shikai. The New Army was stationed around Beijing.

During the following years, people grew more and more discontented with Qing rule, and many Western-educated felt the days of monarchy were over.

During these times, a revolutionary group emerged, called the Tongmenghui. It was formed from the grouping together of several other groups, and included intellectuals such as Sun Yat-sen, Song Jiaroen, Qiu Jin, Liao Zhongkai, and Wang Jingwei. By 1902, they had infilitrated the New Army.

As Cixi's tyrannical rule further pulled China downward, the Tongmenghui grew in strength and popularity. In September 1904, during a military parade, a gunman underneath Yuan Shikai's New Army assassinated Empress Dowager Cixi.

During the next few weeks, Emperor Guangxu struggled to keep the country together, but revolts in Guangzhou, Pingxiang, Liuyang, Liling, and the defection of the New Army to the Tongmenghui prevented much progress. The New Army attempted to take Beijing and Tianjin, but despite being better equiped and trained, ultimately failed, forcing the New Army, now dubbed the Revolutionary Army, to join with Tongmenghui forces down south.

The revolts were either put down or appeased by promises of reform. Unlike Cixi, Guangxu didn't have the revolutionaries executed, but asked for them to come to Beijing for suggestions for reform.

In January 1905, under escort of the New Army, Sun Yat-sen, Song Jiaoren, and Qiu Jin made several demands for reformation: Of all 11 Points, only three were effectively put in place by the Emperor by April 1905. They were the creation of a constitution, abolish foot-binding, and freedom of speech and religion. These improvisations were too little too late.
 * A constitution protecting the rights of all Chinese peoples
 * Install Han officials in the Qing Court
 * Establish a Senate
 * Reform the military along Western lines
 * End appeasement of foreign powers
 * Nationalize the industrial sectors
 * Demand foreign powers to re-sign Unequal Treaties
 * Reaqcuire foreign concessions in China
 * Abolish Foot-binding
 * Allow women to marry freely and divorce
 * Allow freedom of speech and religion
 * Allow parliamentary elections

On May 4th, 1905, mass uprisings occured in Wuhan, Chongqing, Guangzhou, Hangzhou, Chengdu, and Guilin. The most succesful was the Wuhan Uprising, where the Revolutionary Army led the people to victory. The Revolutionary Army proved to be formidable in the south, taking roughly Hubei province. Of all uprisings, only Wuhan, Guangzhou, Guilin, and Chongqing were succeses. Sun Yat-sen demanded the Emperor to abdicate the throne. The call for abdication quickly spread across the country, and a month later, he accepted, and the Qing government collapsed, and a Republic of China was proclaimed by Sun Yat-sen.

All would not be well. Conservative members took over Beijing, Xinjiang, Manchuria, and Tibet, and Inner Mongolia, sending China into another Warlord Era.

I will make a post about Russia later. I don't have time right now.

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:23, July 21, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Here's a map of post-Qing China:



Following the 1905 Revolution (Russia), Tsar Nicholas II realized that the old ways were dead. If there wasn't any substantial reform, Russia would end. So, under the October Manifesto, he created the National Soviet, wrote a constitution, enabled the post of Predsedatel', or Chairman, allowed parliamentary elections, granted universal male suffrage, and implemented economic reform. In OTL, he did this, but took back power shortly after. In ATL, he kept the reforms in place, transforming the absolute monarchy into a more liberal, constitutional monarchy.

The first Chairman of the Empire of all the Russias was Georgy Lvov, of the Kadets. He would successfully implement women's suffrage in 1912, which was one of the Kadets' primary aims.

Canuck2012 (talk) 20:42, July 21, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

If you want a really old one,

The Confederates are not pushed back at Antietam. As a result, the Brits decide that the CSA can win this war, and starts aiding them. However since popular opinion is against slavery, it is not military aid. The Confederates lose the war anyway because of this, but it is much, much, much later- 1880 ish- due to guerrilla warfare. As a result by WWI AMerica is weakened and still split and as such decide not to intervene in the War, which ends in a ceasefire in 1923. As a result, no nazi Germany. Germany never decidesto send lenin back to Russia, so as a result no USSR and thus no cold war- or at least not of the brutal proxy war kind.

hows about that?

The Royal Guns (talk) 09:32, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

...Guns, that "WWII" post made no sense. Moreover, you're basing it on several incorrect assumptions to boot.

Sun did not hold that influence that early - he could not have made such demands or moves. Same goes for the others.

Revolts would not have happened that fast - Imperial support for the foreign intervention would have made it take longer.

No way that Georgy Lvov gets that kind of role, or women get the vote.

...Guns, that ACW post makes little sense too.

Can, choose one PoD and work with it. Not two, not three, not four - just one. More than one, and it's not plausible.

Lordganon (talk) 08:13, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sticking with Russia.

Reforms are implemented, and save Russia.

1908 sees elecetion, Kadets win.

1906-1908 sees the restructuring of Russian subdivisions.

Russia supports Republic of China in 1912, and sends aid to fight warlords. This is mainly a move to secure an ally in Asia against Japan, and also regain Sakhalin.

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:00, July 23, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Wait! I just noticed that the Warlord Era only started after Yuan's death! So, after the Republic's founding, could the conservative members of the military forms little cliques? Or should it be that Yuan declares himself Emperor, and loses control of the majority of China?

Quite honestly, I like alternative 2.

Canuck2012 (talk) 00:33, July 24, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Kadets would not win.

For Russia, it's better if China is somewhat divided.

...No, the "Warlord Era" started before his death. They rebelled before it, not after.

Lordganon (talk) 02:37, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Find a point where a progressive movement got snuffed out in OTL, and let it succeed. Some options: 1) Russian Revolution of 1905 succeeds. 2) Russian Revolution of 1917 continues on a democratic Duma track without falling prey to the Bolsheviks. 3) TR wins the 1912 election. 4) William Jennings Bryant beats McKinley. 5) Hitler dies in a Nazi vs. Communist street brawl in the early 1920s, so Nazism is snuffed out and the Weimar Republic survives. 6) Woodrow Wilson handles the politicking for the League of Nations better and gets the Republican Senate to approve it [and doesn't suffer a stroke]. 7) Archduke Ferdinand doesn't get killed in 1914, and instead of WW1 we get a bunch of internal democractic revolutions in Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia.

Darkhorse08817 (talk) 06:31, July 24, 2012 (UTC)darkhorse08817

Hmmm...interesting. From all the information I've got, the Warlord Era started after Yuan's death. But it started before? Personally, I think that makes more sense.

And I like the idea of Russia helping out China. It'd be a move against Japan. Plus, the Soviets aided China with Operation Zet in the Second World War, so why couldn't Imperial Russia in the Warlord Era? I'm fairly certain it was known back than that Japan had interest in China.

And do you know where I can find a map of China during the early warlord period, around 1912? All I can find are post-1916 ones.

Canuck2012 (talk) 16:14, July 24, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Well... the "Era" itself technically starts afterwards. But, realistically? All of the warlords had already revolted by then, so it did actually start before his death.

You're mistaking Imperial Russia, for the Soviets. Different goals. The Empire wanted China to profit, the Soviets wanted to install a communist regime. The Russians would actually benefit more from a divided China, in many ways.

Google "1912 China map" and you'll find some. Wasn't divided, really, into warlordships until the imperial declaration by Yuan.

Lordganon (talk) 20:30, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...but I really want Russia to support the Republic...

If they did get support from Russia, wouldn't China have decent trade relations with them? That could account for that, I guess.

Or would Japan be more willing?

24.222.254.109 21:30, July 24, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

There is basically no trade relations.

Russia would neither support or oppose the republic.

Japan benefits from China being weak.

Lordganon (talk) 21:52, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

Aww...that's cruddy. Who would support the Republic and help with the centralization of the Republic's govenrment?

On another note, which political party would win the Parliamentary Elections of 1908 in Russia?

24.222.254.109 22:50, July 24, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Out of curiosity, how does this make a change for the better OTL?

The Royal Guns (talk) 08:25, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Something to do with being more "peaceful," Guns. That usually seems to be Can's goals, anyway.

Can, I really doubt that anyone would support and help them.

Conservatives would win. Kinda hard for them not to when most of the voters in Russia, noble or not, leaned that way at the time.

Lordganon (talk) 10:00, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Okeydoke.

Oh no, not entirely. There'll still be wars, lots of wars, and massacres.

I'm just trying to create a more internationally oriented world than OTL.

Plus, Utopias are bo-ring. :)

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:44, July 25, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

More international oriented = same degree of plausibility as utopia. Lordganon (talk) 23:19, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

What would have happened had Yuan Shikai died of liver failure earlier? Canuck2012

Depends on the "when." Lordganon (talk) 01:22, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

How about the middle of 1912, or early 1913, or even the start of 1914. Just anytime prior to his declaration of Imperial Restoration. I know warlords may still break away, but perhaps things won't be so bad as OTL.

Canuck2012 (talk) 21:15, July 26, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Would be worse - those that opposed or revolted in those years, but failed, would be added to the mix. Lordganon (talk) 07:54, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Why would it be worse? Shikai fragmented China. Although...the Beiyang Government will still be in the north.

What could help the Republic of China eliminate the Warlords earlier and reunite the Mainland? I could see possibly Russia supporting Shikai's Empire and the US supporting the Republic.

On a different note, is it possible for the monarchies in Portugal and Spain to survive, and ultimately form a United Kingdom of Spain and Portugal in say the 30s/40s? Or could Iberian Unification be accomplished through the Republican system?

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:11, July 27, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Yuan defeated several rebellions during his rule. Add all of those guys to the warlord numbers. Much worse.

No one would help them do it.

While it is possible for the monarchies to survive, the idea that they would merge is not.

Lordganon (talk) 08:13, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Right, so anyway, how does this make the world more peaceful? I really don't see this, Can.

Ehh... in the 30s and 40s, the Spanish were no longer under a king...

The Royal Guns (talk) 09:00, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

...Not what he was saying. His PoD's are in the 1900s/1910s, remember. Portugal became a republic in 1910, and Spain in 1931. Lordganon (talk) 09:16, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't really think so. But it would be cool if Spain and Portugal could form an "Austria-Hungary of the West."

How could the monarchies of both nations survive?

So China will basically go on as normal? Or could the Republic perform a more succesful, what was it, Northern Expedition?

However, without the threat of Japan and the Communists (due to Russia reforming in 1905-08), couldn't Chiang unite China by 1940?

And would Chiang democratize according to Sun Yat-sen's Principles?

If not, how could Lin Sen or some other more liberal (I think Sen was more liberal?) Kuomintang gain power?

And Russia staying Monarchic pretty much takes care of the whole "more peaceful" thing. Though, it's more like a violent peace, lol.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:19, July 29, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Was enough attempts to restore their monarchies otl - and it was restored in Spain, remember. Wouldn't take much.

China would change little.

Try China reunited by 1930 or so, without the communists being nearly so big.

Chiang would institute some reforms without needing to keep up such military readiness - and the Japanese would have a much harder time, as he wouldn't hold back his "good" troops to "fight the communists."

Lin Sen was only marginally more liberal than Chiang.

Not really more peaceful - just the violence shifts to other areas than otl. It more or less averages out.

Lordganon (talk) 08:49, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

But I want to know how the countries can survive.

Could Portugal somehow reform herself to combat the power of the Church, the country's instability, and cutting Joao Franco's power without causing a Spanish-type civil war?

And could Spain reform along Republican lines and introduce universal suffrage?

I mean, yes, they can reform, but who would initiate the reforms, and what would cause the reforms in the first place?

China, of course, won't become a Western democracy. But would it be more along the Three Principles's lines?

And will Italy invade Ethiopia? If they do, can Ethiopia beat Italy?

Canuck2012 (talk) 17:42, July 29, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Oh! I forgot, is there a possibility of Tibet going under Warlord control during the 10s/20s?

Canuck2012 (talk) 21:08, July 29, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Portugal, best way would be to have the assassination of Dom Carlos I and his heir not happen, or only hit one of them.

Spain, have them do better in the "Rif War," or be smart and avoid it in the first place.

Note, however, not to include it in other PoD's.

Suffrage eventually happens in Spain - it is democratic to do so, not "Republican." Who does it is pretty irrelevant.

No real way to avoid all those in Portugal - just have to find a way to weather it.

...Err... China would end up democratic, like the "West." It's part of those three principles, even. Even Chiang did want some part of them put in, eventually - and with no communists, he'd likely actually do some of them.

Italy would likely still invade Ethiopia. And would still win.

No chance, even remotely, of that happening in Tibet.

Lordganon (talk) 06:26, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to write all that down.

Could China win the Sino-Tibetan War of 1930-32?

Or should it just wait until the 50s?

And would China form a sort of Soviet-style Republic system, say, comprised of China, Tibet, Xinjiang, and Manchuria (originally)? Or would the old province-level administrative divisions remain?

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:58, July 30, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

There would not even be such a war.

Something akin to otl China's setup. Not that most of those regions would be part of china, though.

Lordganon (talk) 05:58, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

The Sino–Tibetan War began in 1930 when the Tibetan army under the 13th Dalai Lama invaded Xikang and Yushu in Qinghai in a dispute over monasteries. Ma clique warlord Ma Bufang secretly sent a telegram to Sichuan warlord Liu Wenhui and the leader of the Republic of China, Chiang Kai-shek, suggesting a joint attack on the Tibetan forces. Their armies rapidly overwhelmed and defeated the Tibetan army.-Wkipedia

Tibet invaded China. If China was more united and less warlords, couldn't Tibet eventually be reconquered?

And the reason I asked about the administrative stuff was for flag reasons. It'll be a challenge designing flags for each Province. But would China have SARs as well? --Canuck2012 (talk) 15:09, July 31, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

When can it be possible for the Low Countries to reunify into the Netherlands? Or can Belgium enter personal union with the Netherlands, and Germany annexes Luxembourg, and after the Great War, Luxembourg is ceded to the Netherlands?

Is it possible to stop Norway from seceding from Sweden?

Is it possible for Korea to resist Japan's annexation? I doubt so.

Can the Congo Free State throw off Belgium? Very unlikely, but I'm curious.

And when can the Central American Federal Republic be formed, as well as the Caribbean Union between Cuba, Haiti, and the Dominican? I could see these occuring after America and Mexico mishandle the Tampico Incident in 1914, leading to America to invade Mexico in support of the Revolutionaries (and establish a puppet regime). Highly unlikely.

Canuck2012 (talk) 02:57, August 1, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

...Tibet would not do that to a more united China. Nor does any of the reasons for why such an invasion would be impossible change.

SARs would be very unlikely. Have to doubt that either one of them joined China here, either.

Belgium, anytime after the 1500s, would not stay with the Dutch. Too many people would not go along with it. Nor would Germany do that.

Not possible to stop Norway, more or less and independent nation in its own right by that point, from doing it.

Korea was far weaker than Japan.

The Congo could not do that.

The answer for the last two is "not at all."

Lordganon (talk) 05:40, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Never, or just not in this timeframe?

Canuck2012 (talk) 20:54, August 1, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Not in that timeframe, any time after that, or any point prior to it following the mid-1800s - and that is only possible in Central America. Lordganon (talk) 07:19, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Though why wouldn't Germany annex Luxembourg? Yes, they technically did after the start of WWI, but than they achieved independence afterward. I'd like to see Luxembourg a part of another nation, aswell as Monaco, Andorra, San Marino, and the Central Americas (united).

Have no idea how this could be plausible, 'cause I hate things where people just say a country wages war on another countryjust 'cause. It's one of my pet peeves. I like wars to have a purpose behind them, even if it's not right.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:24, August 3, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

...Because Luxembourg would not want it? And they had been independent since 1815.

Virtually the same concept applies for Monaco, Andorra, and San Marino.

They will not join other states. Heck, they've refused the concept many, many, many times.

Central America will not reunite - too many differences that date back to before it was a unified state, and that government did nothing to keep it intact, only making things worse.

Lordganon (talk) 04:52, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

As with Luxembourg, Monaco, San Marino, and Andorra, I meant being annexed by Germany, France, Italy, and Spain respectively.

Of course they'd never want to be a part of each said nation!

22:08, August 3, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Also, could the Sauds, after uniting Nejd and Hejaz in '26, start a campaign of industrialization and modernization in an attempt at reuniting the peninsula, similar to OTL Hitler's attempts? I could see sometme between 1938-1945-ish the Sauds attack Yemen, sparking war with Britain and France, leading to the Saud's defeat and establishment of either an Al-Rashid dominated constitutional "Arab Federation", or simply a republic, also by the same name.

Or simply, Britain forms an Arab Federation in the south, and there are two Arabias.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:57, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

...Nor would those powers want to annex them.

The Saudis barely controlled what they had. Nor would they have any motive to do such a thing, which would have actually threatened their rule and brought down foreign intervention onto them.

Brits would not establish a republic. French would not have cared much. Nor would the Saudis have done such a thing in the first place.

Lordganon (talk) 07:47, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

So I take it no for Arabian unification, either?

Though I could see a constitutional monarchy backed by Britain formed in the south, probably with a rival king at the throne.

Canuck2012 (talk) 20:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012