Talk:The Greater Americas (Map Game)

Muisca Confederation
You should add the Muisca confederation in South America in OTL Colombia. LurkerLordB 23:09, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK. ForsakenPear 11:21, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

FLAGS
POST YOUR FLAGS HERE.

Resignation
I am going to resign now because this Map Game has become defunct. RandomWriterGuy 23:13, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

There are three active players, with you that would make four. Far from defunct. LurkerLordB 23:22, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I am planning to join up. I am currently controlling the Mongols as a mod. :D Imperium Guy 22:40, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I wish to joine but I don't know how to. Any ideas? Monster Pumpkin 19:14, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm back! RandomWriterGuy 22:54, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Level of Technology
What is the level of technology for American nations? Do they have horses or gunpowder? Horses seem most unlikely because they were extinct in the Americas until the Spanish colonization. Monster Pumpkin 18:08, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Like it says in the intro, tech is at about 1700s OTL, so we have developed gunpowder and some types of guns. ForsakenPear 19:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

But do we have horses? Monster Pumpkin 20:06, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

No, because before the europeans arrived, there were no horses in the americas. But you could say explorers have discovered horses and have learned how to tame them. ForsakenPear 20:09, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Olomec Conquests and Taiwanese Colonies
I just secured the Southern and Central parts of the Olomec Empire and established colonies in Northern Taiwan. Can someone add that to the map? RandomWriterGuy 02:18, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Europe
Just so I understand the situation is reversed and the Americans have AD1700's like technology while the Europeans have AD812 tech. This is because I have joined as England and I whould like to know where I am tech-wise.

Another question is does Christianity exist? And finally is the situation in Europe alot like AD812?

If this is so I have an idea as to the actual date being AD812 while the Americans have just rapidly advanced much more than Europeans than in OTL. Bobalugee1940 21:22, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

The UK is around 14oos tech while the Franks were 1500s and the Mongols were 1600s. The Americas are in the 1700s however. Imperium Guy 10:43, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

What is the real year? 168.184.220.4 14:13, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Exact date is unknown, but 822 is about 1760s. Thats why I put in that earthquake (Lisbon Earthquake 1755).FP 21:12, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Population/army size
This is just to get a rough idea of the scale of things. It says in the country description page that Patagon starts out with a small population and small army. How big would those be? Similarly, how large would a "large" population or army be? I have the same questions about the navies.68.80.240.184 03:22, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

The size of the population is in comparison to the size of the country. A small country with a small population will have less people than a big country with a small population. It's basically population density. The army and navy sizes are in comparison to to the population. FP 21:01, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm
This is the new Algorithm as approved by Imperium Guy, Monster Pumpkin and ForsakenPear.

Location
Capital - +8

Inside Home Territory - +6

Borders - +3

Sea Invasion - +0

Motive
Life or Death of the Nation - +10

Protection of Current or New Government or an Ethnic group - +7

Fighting on behalf of a good Ally - +6

Fighting to preserve the nation's borders -+5

Fighting on behalf of a neutral or distant Allied nation - +4

Fighting to gain territory - +3

Industry and Infastructure
High level of industry and infastructure - +4

Medium level of industry and infastructure - +2

Low level of industry and infastructure - +1

None at all - -2

Population
High level of people - +4

Low level of people - +1

Disipline of the Army
Elite - +3

Trained - +2

Untrained - +1

Size of the Army
Divide the size of the army by 100 and add to the score.

Luck
A number between 1-10 from Random.Org

Best of Luck. Monster Pumpkin

If I may make a suggestion, I think that industry, discipline, and population should be considered more heavily, since they basically decide how much damage and how many losses an army can endure before it collapses. 68.80.240.184 23:55, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Europe
Location: 3

Motive:3

Industry and Infranstrucure: 2

Population: 3

Displine of the army:3

Size of the army:20,000/100=200

Luck:5

Result: 219

United Amazon
Location: 6

Motive:5

Industry and Infranstrucure: 2

Population:4

Displine of the army:2

Size of the army:30,000/100=300

Luck 8

Result: 327

Disscusions
The ?s need to be filled in with someone who has this knowledge. Like a mod.

In order to complete the Algorithm, I need to know Amazon's army size. Monster Pumpkin

Final Result: The Amazonian forces were lucky, and several villagers reported the attack to the authorities as they saw the Europeans cross the border. Previous warning of an invasion resulted in readiness for the Amazonians, and they manage to repel the assualt with medium losses. The discpline of the Europeans proved to be their greatest advantage, but it was not enough.

Cease Fire Talks and UA-European Peace Talks (G-S is mediator)


Well...

Well, here is my proposal.

The Incan Empire declares that their gains from this plan are not enough, as they must be punished more for unwarranted attacks and the murder of civilians. Monster Pumpkin 19:04, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

What will you give the G-S to join the war against Europe, the more of the HKE I get, the more colonies and support I will be willing to rpovide. DeanSims 19:07, February 12, 2012 (UTC)



The best way forward, for both sides. Everone gains something, except me, lol! :D Imperium Guy 19:09, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

that actualy seems fair except for the Incas gaining part of the Baltic coast, that could spark future wars, give me the proposed portion of the Incan coast and I will trade a few colonies. DeanSims 19:10, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

You can get the coast, but you will never establis colonies on South America. You will also cede a small portion of the conquered west to the Amazonians. Thats it really. :D Imperium Guy 19:12, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Stop posting before I can say somthing. Why are the Europeons getting land. They are losing. Plus, why are people getting land they didn't explore.TacoCopper 19:14, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

They are Europeans, they know the lands of Euro'pa better than us. As well as this, if you want any land yourself, state your claims. :D Imperium Guy 19:17, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Here is another proposal

This is the Euro prposal for a whole new world. Bobalugee1940 19:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

not on your life. G-S will delcare war on Europe very soon now.... DeanSims 19:20, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I like how you made it fair by the way. TacoCopper 19:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

But I want Indochina and India! :( -- Imperium Guy 19:23, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

no fair, G-S is getting screwed over, change it or G-S joins the Allies agaisnt Europe. DeanSims 19:25, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, stop talking about dividing up the world. We are talking about war gains. ( To Europe) Look, you are going to lose land because you are fighting three American and one Europeon nation. We can divide up the world later.TacoCopper 19:26, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The Incas reject this plan outright, as not only does Europe gain large amounts of land, but they also take Rome from the Empire. Monster Pumpkin 19:28, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Taco. For all you know, the world could be like this! Think about it guys. Imperium Guy 19:32, February 12, 2012 (UTC)



What about a Status Quo Antebellum thing with an official appology from the Europeans.

Rejected by the Incas. You killed refugees. You will lose something. Monster Pumpkin 19:35, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

What is the King abdicates and gives his throne to his brother? Bobalugee1940 19:38, February 12, 2012 (UTC)



to late, the G-S has declared war and has massivley invaded you. DeanSims 19:39, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have a better idea. That just means you still get to keep land. This is better. TacoCopper 19:40, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Not necassary, official apology and money, in large amounts, given to the victims and their families. Also, Europe should be more careful in declaring war. Imperium Guy 19:42, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I propose that we stop talking about how to divide Europe until we defeat them. Monster Pumpkin 19:43, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

We are going to defeat them, I just want a headstart on the messy process of dividing Europe. BTW, I looked at Imperium's map again, I just lost my back up colony if that happens.TacoCopper 19:46, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The map was just a warning. I still think that taking away all of Europe's lands is not good. The continent is franmented. I think they should keep the empire, but no more conquering of territories, NPC or otherwise should be allowed. Imperium Guy 19:51, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The Incas outline their demands. These are what they expect to be granted, but not the limit of what they want.

1. Amazon's French colony

2. OTL Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Macedonia.

3. OTL Russia, Belerus, and Ukraine. (By Russia I mean Russia in Europe, not Asia)

Monster Pumpkin 19:54, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The French colony is debateable. Ukraine, Belaurus and Bulgaia are yours. Romania in the G-S's and we haven't even discovered Russia yet. Imperium Guy 19:56, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

the G-S's demands are below

I will willing to give up the French colony, if my settlers can back to my nation. Otherwise, it will still remain mine. I don't want a Europeon colony anymore, too much trouble. I just want to beat the Europeons, grow my African colonies, and keep building factories. Europe isn't going to remain under Europeon control.TacoCopper 20:03, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The new Incan Plan. Monster Pumpkin 20:14, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

i like it. DeanSims 20:23, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Very good. Unless other nations put forward any complaints or alternate suggestions, this will be the division plan upon the conclusion of the war,. Monster Pumpkin 20:29, February 12, 2012 (UTC)



Roll Back
could we roll back and void all this crap about the war, I actually am pretty sorry I did this and if we roll back I pormise I won't persue ambitions in France. Bobalugee1940 20:12, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

How about this, you surrender, but don't lose any land. Just stop attacking people.TacoCopper 20:14, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Deal. Bobalugee1940 20:15, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Slow down, neither of you are mods, so this would only affect Amazon and Europe. You would still have to contend with the Incas and Germans. Monster Pumpkin 20:16, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Okay how bout the Incans and the Germans just simply accept the offer as well with no hard feelings, also for the Germans, if they want land I suggest you head east to the Black Sea. Bobalugee1940 20:18, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I want more land DeanSims 20:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Then invade east, reach the Black Sea or attack the Balkans and take land there, I don't want it anyway. Bobalugee1940 20:22, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I am a mod, and I approve this. But you have to stop attacking people, you have a nice large empire. :D Imperium Guy 22:13, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that a roll back would be neccesary now that the conflict is almost over. Monster Pumpkin 22:17, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. No rollback. :D Imperium Guy 22:23, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Can i create a new nation called Anatolia that will be in the modern day Turkey?

And you are? FP 14:48, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Muisca Split
My proposed alternative split of the Muisca: FP 15:38, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I propose this split instead, as the goal of the Empire was to get to the Caribbean Sea.

Monster Pumpkin 20:23, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. FP 10:38, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Key
This is the industrialization plan.
 * Yellow is the countries with the least difficulties to industrialize
 * Green will have mild difficulties
 * Dark Green will have some trouble industrializing
 * Grey cannot be counted unless a nation has been discovered or an area has been colonized

Regards. Imperium Guy 17:02, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Why would the Incan Empire have difficulty industrializing at home when historically the had the second best road system of ancient cultures? Building railroads seems almost the same idea. Monster Pumpkin 20:17, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you are in an ongoing war. After the war is over, you will be "in the yellow". :D Imperium Guy 21:28, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

What war? I believe that the war with the Muisca ended last year. Monster Pumpkin 21:36, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ummm... why is the HKE split? Bobalugee1940 22:01, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing split as sifferent coloured. Well, your mainland, things would be smooth but on the land in Eu'ropa, you will have logistical problems and the occasional sabotage. :D Imperium Guy 22:19, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Location
Capital - +8

Inside Home Territory - +6

Borders - +3

Sea Invasion - +0

Motive
Life or Death of the Nation - +10

Protection of Current or New Government or an Ethnic group - +7

Fighting on behalf of a good Ally - +6

Fighting to preserve the nation's borders -+5

Fighting on behalf of a neutral or distant Allied nation - +4

Fighting to gain territory - +3

Industry and Infastructure
High level of industry and infastructure - +4

Medium level of industry and infastructure - +2

Low level of industry and infastructure - +1

None at all - -2

Population
High level of people - +4

Low level of people - +1

Disipline of the Army
Elite - +3

Trained - +2

Untrained - +1

Size of the Army
Divide the size of the army by 100 and add to the score.

Luck
A number between 1-10 from Random.Org

Europe
Location - +6

Motive - +5

Industry - +2

Population - +4

Discpline - +2

Army size - 10,000/100=100

Luck - +9

Result - 128

Incan Empire
Location - +3

Motive - +3

Industry - +4

Population - +4

Discpline - +3

Army size - 11,250/100=112.5

Luck - 1

Result - 130.5

Discussion
Europe has been specifically working on its discipline, in the lsat war it was 3 so in this one it should be 5 or 6 Bobalugee1940 00:28, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

If you looked at the algorithm it only goes up to +3. Monster Pumpkin 00:40, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

tha at least put it up to a three Bobalugee1940 00:57, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

1. That really won't make a difference.

2. I made it a two because chances are your most elite troops are in Eastern Europe, not on the French Border. Monster Pumpkin 01:17, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Europe heading east
I'm going to go slightly east to get around the Gulf of Finland to unite Scandinavaia to the rest of Europe. Also I was wondering if it quld be okay if attack European Russia. Bobalugee1940 20:39, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I will accept Finland, but do not head into Russia. The Empire has commercial interests in the area in the form of furs. Monster Pumpkin 20:48, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Coding problems
There seems to be code problems for the TL part of the Map Game. RandomWriterGuy 05:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Changes to the Algorithm
Let me begin by saying that having an algorithm in the first place is an excellent idea and greatly streamlines the normally messy PvP process. However, I have to say that the current formula is too unbalanced. According to the algorithm, the sheer size of the army is by FAR the most important thing; even when everything else is added together, it's often still too little to affect the outcome of a battle. This seems immensely unrealistic to me. For instance, the current algorithm doesn't even take into account how well equipped an army is; as of right now, an army of 10000 soldiers with daggers would defeat 1000 with miniguns, whereas in real life the opposite would happen. If you want proof of what I am saying, consider how a few hundred OTL European colonizers, just because they were armed with guns, were able to defeat African armies, who were armed with spears, that numbered in the thousands.

I feel that a more realistic algorithm would feature proportions more like this: For every 100 points the size of the army would add, another 100 would be added by how well equipped an army is, another 50 for population size and another 80 for levels of industry, and another 50 for all the other factors. (These proportions may not be the best, but the point is everything is significant enough to play a role in the outcome.)

Also, I think we need to really establish exact army sizes, so we don't have cases where one person thinks a "big" army is 500,000 and another person claims their "big" army is eight million. It would also help to prevent cases where one person would establish a colony with no defensive force, another person would attack with 50,000 troops, and then the first person could just claim they had 1,000,000 troops there all along.

Just my thoughts. IhaveSonar 01:54, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Here is my idea. We establish population counts for all nations and their miltary size is a certain percantage of that. Like, 10% during large civil unrest, 15% during minimal unrest, 20% at normal, 30% at draft for 18-30, 35% for 18-40, and 40% for 18-50. Just my thoughts. These will not be exact, and might need some adjusting, but if we improve it, we could have a better algorithm than we do now.TacoCopper 15:16, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Instead of the algorithim become too great with numbers, we should have the "100" be changed into a "10". I also agree to the idea of army sizes. :D Imperium Guy 21:58, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, just as long as everything remains proportional. IhaveSonar 00:04, March 1, 2012 (UTC)