Board Thread:Timeline Discussions/@comment-7559950-20130911012534/@comment-32656-20130917113847

Spain would have been a complete non-factor, imo. Weak military, unstable country, and the military having to keep the population from revolting. Heck, the war, while declared over, still was even being fought in the 1940s to some extent, and rebels still fought into the 1950s. Think of it as being akin to Bush declaring Iraq over.

The Spanish Navy was, following the civil war, incredibly antique and only having small vessels in it. A virtual non-factor, and the Brits would have easily torn it apart. Air Force and Army, same way.

Gibraltar is a fortified peninsula. Ridiculously easy to defend. Would take years, at best, to take it.

Think of it this way - the Axis were unable to take Malta. Gibraltar would have been worse.

Spanish would have been entirely unable to block the straits there, whatsoever.

Moreover, the Germans and Italians would have had to commit both industry and troops to help the Spanish out. Only way Spanish forces would have been of any use, and needed to combat the rebellions that would have been sparked and the Allied invasion that would not doubt come. Allies would have supported that like in France, only to greater effect. Would have meant that resources for the so-called "Atlantic Wall" would have been even more diluted and under-defended.

Division Azul? Ha. That group, despite being equipped by the Germans, was inept, at best. The Soviets killed or wounded basically all of them in the only battle they really fought, and a breakthrough almost occurred - had a pair of German divisions not been rushed there, they would have, and Leningrad would have been freed from the siege a year early. To put that into perspective, the same concept, though in far greater numbers and on a larger scale, was used to surround the 6th Army at Stalingrad.

Overall, Spanish involvement would have hurt the Axis more than it helped. Would have led, quite frankly, to the war ending sooner.

There is no way that such an alliance against the Soviets happens.

Americans would have joined the war eventually irregardless of Pearl. The concept was getting to be more and more in favor in the US, and by Pearl they had been fighting an undeclared war in the the Atlantic with the U-boats for a while, even suffering some small losses. Was only a matter of time until something happened that draws them in.

Don't know where that 110 number came from Guns, but it's wrong. Prior to the German invasion, there was 168-200 million people in the USSR, depending on if you include the new annexations or not. More than twice as much as Germany, either way.

Military? Twice as many people served in the Soviet military than in the German one, and on the eastern front, the Soviets outnumbered the Germans at all times, even during Barbarossa. Just under twice as many troops on that front through most of that period of the war, going up to more than three times as many troops by the spring of 1943. And, more importantly, the Soviets did not mobilize as much as they could have, either. They could have easily moved more from points eastward, as well.

The Germans were massively outnumbered in every way, shape, and form. Guns, your figures are just wrong or misleading, depending on the figure.

Oil can very easily just get shipped around Africa. Or, better yet, from the US, where much of the oil they did use came from. Or, heck, straight from the oilfields on the Gulf. ridiculously easy. Even without Gibraltar, that strait would still be usable, even.

Why on earth would Chiang do that? There is literally no way he would do such a thing. Or, for that matter, be forced into that position - it's basically impossible for the communists to have much power prior to the Soviets gifting them it on 1945.

OM, that is not by military historians. Not even remotely. Nor does it have a single iota to do with Gibraltar. That is someone's fantasy story.

North Africa at that timeframe had very little oil, ffs. And what there was, had to be refined in Europe. Think about that.

Moe oil in Libya would not have done the Italians any good - their troubles there had absolutely nothing to do with a lack of fuel. Same goes for the Germans both there and in Europe, until near the end at least. Would need to go to Europe for refining anyways. Does nothing one way or the other.

Germans in Turkey? Given their views, not happening. And even if they did, the terrain involved is easy to defend. Remember, any troops there would have to be pulled from elsewhere, rendering the point moot. Sending German troops there only screws that attacks in Russia even more. Turkish troops are poor quality, at best, and would only be cannon fodder. Nor would they be able to send many, since they still needed them to hold down their own country. Supply lines for both them and the Germans, poor at best.

Neither one of those "events, RD, are "minor." Or would make real any difference. Axis still lose.

Once again, guys: It's not possible for the Axis to win on the scale that they intended. Can they "win" in some form? Sure, but you need to first set a victory "condition" that's not insane first. And what they tried otl is not going to work.