Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3
 * Archive 4
 * Archive 5
 * Archive 6

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Location Bonus: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Motive Modifiers: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Location Bonus:
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Motive Modifiers: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

Ms, just remmeber to clear this area of solved issues once you make a map so you can see new issues. Anyhow, I will be camping for a few days and need the map to stay accurate, so here is the 1565 map if everything stays as it is.

Thanks, 21:18, July 11, 2014 (UTC) Please add the L'nu Empire. It's borders are as seen below. I believe there has been objection to the configuration of my expansion, so I'll explain myself here.The area in question was/is composed of barren and inhospitable boreal forest, sort of like an Arctic version of the South American Chaco, the only practicable settlement is along rivers and the coast. Firstly, they are the only practicable transportation routes- thus the only places food or supplies can be brought. Secondly, there is no plausible reason for a nation to expand off into the taiga. The only territory worth settling, and thus the only territory that would plausibly be settled, is along rivers and the coast. I would have been happy to have the nation expand normally, but doing so simply seemed implausible itself. Moreover, those lines represent about thirty turns worth of expansion. Seriously, I feel a little surprised that thirty turns of expansion can be discarded on the basis of having happened in the wrong configuration. Please add it to the map. Krasnoyarsk (talk)

This is the correct border for the Tartary. We reached the Pacific and vassalised the Jurchens in the 1550-1559 period. Fed (talk) 23:38, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
If you want to update the map, please list the changes you've made in the Notes section, along with your signature; this enables me to update the color key and change log accordingly, preventing confusion for readers. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:58, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

The map is now up to date for 1475. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:48, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

All regions are shown according to their plurality religion.

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in dark gold, and Catholic states whose churches function independently of the Roman Church are shown in pale yellow. Ludwigism is shown in bright gold. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Reformism is red. Sunni Islam is lime green, Shia Islam is forest green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green, Assafi Islam is bright green, and Paganistic Islam is mint green. The Mastorava is teal blue, Hinduism is sky blue, and Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink. Other religions will be added as needed.

Notes Issues and Discussion
 * Added coloration for the Mastorava, Assafi, and Paganist-Islam sects.
 * Switched pale yellow from Sedevacantist to independent-Catholic.
 * Venice is still "Catholic" for the time being, but it will be shown as independent-Catholic when the Venetian player announces that his church takes orders from him instead of Rome.
 * Ayutthaya and its vassals are now Buddhist.
 * Tartary and its vassals are now Mastoravic.
 * Added Ludwigism Blocky858 (talk) 00:45, May 17, 2014 (UTC)



Spain has expanded in south africa, and buenos aires, has expanded kongo, and Morocco, and has conquered part of the Mayans. Please add this to the map MS

Scratch the mayans being partly conquered, they were outright conquered. Also Mapuche were taken by Spain, and their color needs to be moved to OTL Sau Paulo in Brazil as im moving them since me and Sonar are at an understanding. -Feud

Can some one put my colony up on the map it is in east Africa.- Scarlet

Mod Event Grievances
Just so that it doesn't clutter the page, please post your mod event questions, comments and grievances here. This -should- be archived every five years.

1548
Viva is so going to be pissed.

'''What do you know - another biased mod event! SwankyJ (talk) 21:36, June 29, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''I'm not recognizing this event. I had four other mods say I could go into Australia, and here you are punishing me with ridiculous and implausible actions. How would sending a war party off to another land magically destablize the country back home? Most of the Maori don't even know about the adventure, and yet it's effecting them all? How stupid is that? And when did I ever say this was a confederacy? My nation has been getting stronger-not weaker, and the fact that you're trying to change that through a silly event, and yes it is silly, confounds me. ~Viva'''

'''While I can't outright delete this I think we should still strike these from the canon. Regardless of what you think of the guy this rampant Viva-bashing needs to stop. -Yank'''

'''Enough, It has been said that NO ONE! NOT EVERY SINGLE NATION ON THE FACE ON EARTH CAN TRY TO CONQUER OR COLONIZE ANYTHING that certainly includes you, you can do it eventually and earlier than anyone, but not this soon, Further more when you asked me i told you that you shouldn't not go to austria anytime soon, and honestly at this moment i'm just starting to believe you want to get pitty to eventually try to impeach feud or to get away with your plans every fucking time. Plus the event has the basin that you are sending them to their dead and that even with your development things like this would essentially look as if the mission was cursed by the gods, Just stop doing it and wait, like everyother player is Jeez! The event Stays, Deal with it Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 01:20, June 30, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''If I wanted to have Feud impeached, I would have just set up a vote to do it. The fact that you believe I'd sink to your level to do something I never intended shows how insecure you really are. I think it's funny that you believe I want Feud impeached, when all of the other players think he should be impeached. I'd love to see that happen, but I wasn't the first to pitch the idea. I really think you are truly blind since nowhere in my posts did I ever say I was going COLONIZE or CONQUER Australia you dolt. Tell me, please, where I said that was what I was doing? When did I ever say that was my plan to colonize the place NOW? I said I was waiting until I united the island, but like everything else, I guess you just decided not remember that too. ~Viva'''

'''Thing is viva you aren't trustworthy furthermore hadn't we stopped you you would probably be pulling some implaussie empire. The reason why you are bitching is that, that when you are trying to do it we block you I mean even by know you don't have a good reason to travel at the continent even if for trade its hardly ridiculous you have better reasons to conquer your homeland and something I wanna make clear no one can get to mainland Australia now not China not Spain and certainly not me so neither should you specially with less than 20 years of advance out of nowhere (considering that prior to that the Maori were nothing technologically speaking) something you are ignoring and blatantly ignoring and viva the "I'm a genius you are nothing to me" behavior only makes you look bad and is the reason why everyone ends up ganging up against you. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 04:27, June 30, 2014 (UTC)'''

(I seperated the arguments, it was killing me to see them merged into one) - Eip the Eagle

'''I find that downright hilarious Sine. You deny the fact that most of the players agree with me, and you still act as if you can read my mind. I never said I knew everything, and I always gave proof of my information, something you and the other mods have still refused to do. Your actions continue to defy logic, and I honestly don't understand why you continue to promote your ridiculous belief that I'm "untrustworthy", when you and the mods continue to change rules, abuse loopholes, and metagame the mess out of PMIII for your own benefit. If you truly read my posts, you'd see I wasn't in Australia to take over anything, trade with anyone, or claim stuff for myself. Final thing, my behavior isn't getting people to gang up on me. It's always the same people, you and the mods. Everyone else supports me, but you refuse to see that. If I sound hostile, it's because I am. I've been saying the same thing for the last two years, but it never sinks, you keep ignoring it. ~Viva'''

=General Discussion=

On the rules of PMIII
A few days ago, I was on chat when the subject of ATL and OTL came up. I was told that the history of PMIII should resemble what happened in OTL, which understandably enough irritated me since the name of this wiki is "Alternate History". However, that peaked my concern about the way this game and many others have been going for the last two years I've been here. Because of that, I've seen countless games and TLs where history is different, but "not that different", and nowhere else has that been most evident than in the Principia Moderni games, more specifically the second and third. I'll point out the issues one by one and let you all decide whether or not I'm correct.

Alternate history vs. Actual history
At this point in the game, history is unfolding pretty much the same way it did in OTL. Britian, Spain, France, and the Netherlands are still the major colonial empires of the game, and everyone else is just in their way. China is xenophobic and crumbling from the inside out. Japan is isolationist, and divided. Africa has regressed into a period of European colonialism. And the Middle East is a backwater of conflict and disarray. Nothing has changed. The only major difference I can probably point out is the fact that the Tartars instead of the Russians dominate Eurasia. Any attempts to change the status quo have been met with criticism. Oyo was hampered at each and every corner with a countless array of negative events to prevent it from doing anything "un-African", and keep it constrained to the African continent. Hamburg attempted to build a colonial empire and was shot down each time it attempted to strike a soft target overseas. Bengal was attempted to unite India, but a series of mod events prevented it from breaking the power of the Indian League in spite of the fact India was unified under several empires throughout history. I mean, what's the point of having alternate history if the people in charge are hellbent on preventing that from happening?

When I was playing as Oyo, Reximus would harass me for performing actions he deemed "incorrect" of an African nation. Building warships? Colonizing lands? Expanding beyond your OTL borders? Sweet mother of Jesus! HERESY!!! Last I checked, the point of alternate history is to perform actions contray to what happened in actual history. Performing actions to prevent Africa from becoming the cesspool it is today would be considered alternating history. However, it has been deemed implausible by some based entirely on the fact that it's Africa, and thus unworthy of developing into anything else. Yes, I do mean because its Africa. That has been the sole argument of some, foremost of them being Reximus. Now some detractors would say I mention this because I'm mad the mods won't let me do what I want. Well unless you can read my mind and tell me you know what I'm thinking, I'd suggest said people shut up and go elsewhere. But in all honesty, this has a much greater point in my argument. That point is, people say something is impossible, and then do all in their power to prevent it from happening.

How can you say something is impossible if you never even let it happen? It's one thing to say a broke nation is going to the moon. There are reasonable constraints to that. It's another to say a nation with the desire and the resources cannot colonize/expand/conquer based solely on the opinion of another person. Which brings me to my next point.

Nation expansion
Now the problem with this, and yes, there is a problem, is that the rules make no sense and are reasoned from a top down perspective. For instance, the rules only allow you to expand 5,000 km at a time. That makes no sense at all, because at that rate of expansion, it would have taken the British approximately 1,458.53 years to colonize all of Australia. Now move from the British point of colonization in 1788, the British would finish their colonization in the year 3246 AD. Ridiculous, yes? The rules make it seem as if some group of politicians constantly look over a map and say; "Okay, we've expanded by 5,000 square kilometers. Good, we're done for this year gentlemen." Unrealistic and completely implausible. Nations claimed huge chunks of land for themselves, and whatever was disputed over was either fought over with guns and steel, or in the backroom of some hotel in a capital somewhere. If you simply have to keep these rules, then make them more reasonable. Make desert and tundra expansion faster. Allow islands to be claimed in a single sitting instead of having to meticulously move across them in ten years time. Don't force someone to have to slowly settle all of the land they taken simply by encircling what they've claimed already. Those huge pockets of land taken centuries to claim with the current rules. At least make a rule that speeds up settlement if you don't want automatic claims.

Now on the topic of conquest, let me to start with the stupid "no invasion of Europe" rule. If France can attack China, then China can just as easily attack France. It has the ships, the manpower, and the resources to make it happen, yet, the moderators say that it cannot happen using arguments from everything such as "Europe is too populated", "Europeans would unite against the attackers", "There's no reason for you to invade Europe", "It's too far away" (then why are you attacking the attacker on the otherside of the world, dumba**?), or "There's a magically invisible barrier protecting Europe against China, Africa, India and Cthulhu". However, its perfectly okay for the Europeans to attack anyone, anywhere, at anytime. Logic would dictate that if France can use a series of refueling stations to move its invasion force to China, then China could use its own series of jumping points to invade France. But no, that wouldn't make sense because France would be open to Chinese invasion, and all of Europe could be colonized by angry foreigners fed up with European imperialism. Let's just be straight and honest. You don't want Europe to fall because you believe in the infallibility of the European powers, and don't want to be on the opposite end of the stick.

Colonization. The stickler. PMII colonization was fun, for me at least, since it was fair and everyone got a chance to expand at the same rate. It was all about who got to where and when. Now, only a few select nations, mostly mod nations (Feud/Spain, Sine/France, Ms/Austria, Andrew/Britain, Collie/Portugal), are allowed to colonize huge swathes of land. The other nations in the "minor" and "other" categories, have the resources or cultural desire to colonize at the same rate, but are restrained by some stupid rule to simulate "realism", even though realism is determined by what already happened, instead of what could have happened, thus making it "real". We've seen Britain colonize the mess out of Africa, and thus we deem that realistic. We haven't seen China colonize America, but they demostrated their ability to do so based on the fleet they built, thus making that realistic. But we have yet to see Iran colonize Vietnam, and thus deem it unrealistic. The colonization rules are highly opinionated and biased toward already established powers. Why can't Hamburg invade and conquer Yemen, but the Netherlands, right next to Hamburg, is allowed to conquer Java? Both have reloading ports midway across Africa, while Hamburg has the benefit of using the canal to reach Yemen. What sense does it make to stop them from completing their mission?

Closing statement
At this point, I've made my argument. Judge me wrong or not, but I hold on to my views based entirely on what has happened since this game's start. I could go on to talk about the events and the flame wars (the ones I wasn't apart of), but my fingers are tired, and my eyes are sore. Gentlemen. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:54, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I pretty much agree with all of the points you made, and it does seem like most of the mods are pretty euro-centric in their mindsets, even if just a little. I also feel that most of the mod presence being in Europe makes them pretty bias as well, seeing as how they want to succeed individually with their own nations. Cookiedamage (talk) 02:13, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, OTL. Because we all remember when the Wittelsbach king was eliminated from the Polish throne replaced by Józef Szczuka. Or when the Kalmar Union remained united into the sixteenth century and became a single nation, as well as annexing East Karelia. Or, you know, when a centralised nation formed in Australia. Or, for that matter, when Rome controlled Crimea and Egypt in 1550, and Hamburg invaded Somalia. Of course, who could forget the time the Tatars were converted to Christianity by the Byzantine Empire, after they vanquished the Ottomans from Europe? Or, of course, the bitter annexation of Colombia by France, and the vassailation of the Mapuche. Or the glorious war between Austria and the Tartary over Muscovy. Who could ever forget that?

Ah, yes, Eurocentrism. That's what you call when we don't permit Oyo to conquer the Mississippian Civilisations or expand halfway accross West Africa when nobody did something among that lines. Of course, just because the two largest nations in Earth are not Indo-European that means we're totally Eurocentric!!! And because we didn't allow you to have ships of the line within 15 years of taking Oyo we're evil racists. Sure. Obviously. Fed (talk) 04:08, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Viva... there-s a reason why Europe has the headstart, the two biggest nations that can colonize have had an advantage, and take Ms out of there, we kicked his attempt to a colonial empires 50 after the time he wanted to do it lol. Spain and france had colonies since nearly when the game started, the reason we expanded so war is because we used a loophole (free to be used by anyone) and our prime positions to colonize, for an instance, I used the Quimbaya, made by yet another mod who at the moment i barely knew much of (i only knew he was colombian lol) to expand the colony to the size i desired lol same does feud. Like i said Loopholes, they are not illegal and good way to do as you desire. and like Cookie said, having all mods in europe is obviously going to give a head advantage to europe, plus we have all the most plausible and or experienced players in europe, while the rest of the world has octs or newbies. I mean, China had scan but then he got busy, and then china went NPC for half a century, thats the kind of things that fucks up other nations powerwise, i believe someone had said last PM2 "Mods will always have the advantage cause they will always know how things should be and will avoid the problems" which most of the players dont, this pm3 has been different from others cause it is filled with shitstorms and players that ignored the mods calls.finally to talk about colonization you have to see the state of the top colonizers from other PM games, In PM1 Asia colonized america mostly cause of China (Zheng he i believe) and europe colonized later on eventually, there was a stronger presence of asia because of this and because big asian empires focused in outside expansion, Europe had less players and all of the players of the games were newbies. PM2 europe had less of a chance to be the at the top because of three things 1. The big powerfull nations were taken by newbies or non-constant players, E.g Spain, France and England, the power centres from europe were in germany, scandinavia and italy and they left room for outside empires to grow 2. the caliphate fucked up European Politics and impulsed certain empires to power 3.Many good players were outside of europe,E.g Crim on China, Kogasa on Japan, Imperium in India and Viva (Good players though exagerated with your empires) in ethiopia, these three nations countered those in europe and with the fact that europe had gangrape wars gave them the chance to grow stronger, in a simple sentence, europe wasnt estable enough to allow empires to grow and thrive for long periods of time. In pm3 however theres a difference, most of those players are in europe and havent left any room for others to grow powerfull, mostly from fear of caliphates, Impempires and Viviempires from growing up in the game, that with the fact that europe is stronger than ever before and newbie players have the outside dominant nations has locked colonization and powerbalance solely in one place, Europe, like it had in OTL Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 04:26, July 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * For a time Sine, a large number of players were outside of Europe, and sought to colonize by fast-tracking their development. There were plenty of players who remained highly active throughout the start of the game, but slowly left after their efforts to expand were either aggressively hindered or simply unrewarded. Sky is one good example of a good player who's nation was punished repeatedly for trying to expand. Also, even players in Europe were denied the ability to colonize based solely on the opinions of others. Pskov, as I mentioned, was denied the ability to colonize simply due to its size, even though it was about the same size as Denmark, which in OTL had a colonial empire. Pskov had the benefit of a large forest which could support a large fleet, and a population base that was large enough to sustain the economy needed to run such an empire. Pskov had about half a million people, and Denmark only about 700,000 people. Both were close enough to do the exact same thing, yet Denmark (as an extension of Scandinavia), was allowed to colonize, while Pskov was not. Hamburg had a huge navy from what the mods themselves stated, yet Hamburg was only allowed a "tiny" colony in Greenland, and its later colonization and foreign expansion checked by the mods. Also, several nations had "prime positions" across the map. Oyo, Hamburg, China, Bengal, heck, even Madagascar, all had good locations. Wind and ocean currents, population bases, resource access, and political will, gave all of these nations the ability to do as much as the major colonizers.
 * Some out of European nations should be allowed, as China. China actually had a pretty damn good fleet, but stopped sailing west to focus on mainland Asia. None of a Savid African colony s***. Saturn (Talk/Blog) 23:43, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * However, the European nations were once again selected over any other nations which worked hard to colonize. All Spain, Britain, and even France did was "build more ships, hire more men". The other nations put extensive work into their development, but never recieved anything for it. Finally, the issue with mod calls is that said calls are often built on lousy information or general disinterest with facts. Feud told me not two days ago, that the Maori couldn't have sailed vessels. Yet, the very same person who said proudly "I do more than Google sh**", didn't even bother to look up his information on Maori vessels, and didn't know the Maori historically had sailed vessels with masts. The mods often state they know more about the player's nation than the players themselves, even though the person playing the nation will always do the research on them to know what to do with it. Oyo's expansion was condemned because its OTL self didn't expand beyond its borders. Yet, putting the fact that this is ATL aside, Oyo never expanded because it was in a constant war with its neighbors, and its land was so rich that more land wasn't needed for food or resources (mind you West Africa was by far, the most urbanized place in the world). Yet, the mods made no effort to learn about this, and simply punished Oyo for trying to expand.
 * So like I stated above, the game feels Euro-centric, and that is the problem with the rules as many players see it. The rules seem geared to aiding European nations in getting ahead, or preventing other nations from challenging them. You need only look at the events of the past to see proof of that. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:20, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

For the most part i agree with what sine, and fed said.. You pretty much say our colonies and territorial extent shouldnt be this large, when by the 1550's OTL empires were around this size/maybe a tad smaller. My colonies in particular are not huge but just stretch across alot of coastline. its nothing like conquesting the Aztecs and Inca like OTL. when you say ATL you pretty much assume everything HAS to be different. Sorry that Western Europe manage to replicate colonial dominance like OTL. Colonialism wasnt fair, the Age of Exploration wasnt fair stop making it out like it needs to be fair when the OTL theme was the point of the major monopolizing powers preventing others from breaking into the colonial empire buisiness. As for your point of China being unable to invade France its purely logistical. the Chinese cant even do that in the modern age... Back in the Day people like France and britain used locals as military troops. Look up Sepoys and its already been done in Game. China cant invade europe because right now that superiority attitude in europe exists, and no good amount of europeans would flock to a chinese banner. Ships or no ships the logistics of transporting and army that distance is absolutely impossible for either side. There is a reason why in the case of india and Asia troops and supplies were recruited and built locally. Along with this not many of these troops can be recruited as of present. Your complaining you didnt get your ridiculous empire, thats all this is. No more of this foolishness from you period. Im 100% done with it as it every other mod, especially after i had sine, and multiple other mods confirm the fact that you STRAIGHT UP LIED to my face about the australia junk.

Oh? And what exactly did I lie about? You and what other mods? It could just be you and Crimson. That could be mods. You have to clarify. And tell me, what is it that I want to do? It's already been confirmed that I can go to Australia before anyone else, and I already said I don't plan on being there for another four or five decades. So that isn't the issue. So what is it that your not letting me do? How is my empire ridiculous? I haven't built one yet. So that certainly can't be the problem either. So please tell me, what is it that I'm doing or that I want that I'm trying to "hide" behind my argument here? What "secret motive" do I have? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:20, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Wait, you consider me a good player? Cool. On the subject, I do recall the recent Maori vessels issue where someone actually confirmed Viva's stuff. As for the OTL vs ATL & Fed's comment on it. If I recall correctly, Scandinavia was united by a player who happens to be a moderator. The Romans were powerful because Chris was inactive and similar details would follow. However, there we have a somewhat relevant issue. Most NPC nations do  nothing . For example, the Bahmani and Vijaynagari rivalry was completely forgotten. And as for the centralized nation in Australia, it is also a nation that own timor (not sure if directly tho) and has had contact with the Dutch. Many players cut deals, sacrificing their nations sovereignity in return for having the option to continue playing as the nation. The games is different because to players of major powers, it's important to grow and grow and find out how to retain their colonies post-decolonization, while players of smaller powers are just trying to survive.

Sky Green 24 - Join the party  12:04, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Of course NPC nations do nothing. What do you want from us, for us to write a mod event about all fifty-something NPC nations? That's hardly fair, given that most players copy-paste posts, and more than one don't even bother reading mod events related to them.

As for sacrificing sovereignty and whatever, sure. What do you expect, for us to allow any small nation to create a large pan-continental empire? ''It's general plausibility to say that small nations will fight to survive, while large nations will thrive. Actually, it's not general plausibility; it's common sense.'' Fed (talk) 19:04, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

There is some legitimacy to what Viva said, but there is also a lot of truth in Fed and Feud's statements. Really, we all just need to realize that Map Games are bound to become ASB to some extent due to the absence of NPCs, and that is not the mods fault.

I also feel that part of Viva's frustration may come from his success in PM2 ad Ethiopia, but I would like to reiterate that PM2 and PM3 are COMPLETELY different monsters altogether. There is a reason PM2 is marked ASB, and that is (much as Sine pointed out), many early European players were iffy at best, and (lets not forget) the Caliphate.

Anyhow, I agree with the mods, generally speaking, in that there will be few powers who will emerge in the first 200 years that were not in the top levels of OTL society. Its all about the long-haul with these other nations, by 2000, Oyo could've easily been a world-class power. 19:44, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

My "success" in PMII has nothing to do with PMIII. The issues are the same because the people in charge are the same. The game is run by a handfull of players who play the most powerful nations in the game, and refuse to do anything that could hamper their growth. All events are either aimed toward limiting the growth of other nations, or a fake attempt to show they aren't biased by passing an event that "sorta" hurts their own nation. As I mentioned in the past, Scan only hurt his own nation when he was accused of being biased, but the earthquake he hit his tiny, far-flung backwater colony in Mexico, was small, and he rebuilt quickly after that. Crimson put spies in England, from China, when Ethiopia invaded, and used a genocide in the land to declare war on Ethiopia, in a region that had nothing to do with China. Yet, when any nation attempted to get involved in a war that was far from their shores, but that they could reach plausibly, Crim and other mods stated that the war had nothing to do with them, and they had no reason to join the fight.

As for Feud, he has taken over the Maya, Oyo, Italians, and Filipinos, yet he hasn't had a single major rebellion to put down. The only thing he encountered was his run in with Congolese tribals, who did no damage to his nation whatsoever, and that he has not encountered again. Somehow, his colonies are perfectly happy with his brutal conquest of their lands, yet when Oyo and Hungary did the same, the people hated them no matter what either nation did to please them. It's impossible to develop a nation when the moderators stomp on every attempt you or anyone else make to do so. Just call it what it is. Bias. Plain and simple. They did it in this game, the last game, the game before that, the AvA games, the Vive games, and the TEvCP games too. We have the same mods in every game, and we end up with the same problems in every game. The problem was well known long before I got here. All I did was make it a sore point for those abusing their power when I showed up. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:26, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Viva, there's one thing, in OTL spain did most of that and it didn't had major revolts until its power began to fail in europe (the only major uprising i remember in Spanish america is the one of tupac amaru in 1750 peru) further more viva, You can't be seriously comparing a world power than in OTL proved to handle even 3 times the size of Spains current colonies and lands with a bigger foe than Spain has right now. According to your ideas Spain should have not lasted more than 50 years in OTL cause it had half of europe against them for good period of time and prior to that it had the Ottomans who were nearly as big if not more than them, you can't compare a culture that in otl hardly managed to project any power and expect it to be allowed to Conquer half of West africa and whine about a culture that Actually projected power around half of the world, when its projecting power in a little less area than it did in OTL. the reason it happens is because as mods we have to cross reference otl with certain cases (Spain being the example of a nation that did had a great deal of power in OTL and so with a good player it happens again in ATL) and cases like oyo's where it can achieve it, with a longer time period (Which you didn't fully cause you were trying to seize power in west africa since 1450) further more. and Viva you are quite Wrong. we don't have the mods in every game. feud wasn't a mod in TEvCP nor in any vive game and only in AvA in which the game went relatively fine (Setting aside germany lol) and in prior PM2 the mods were far from us. the only two mods that remain from the last game mods are Fed, and Collie and both of them were idle. in fact the mods who let PM2 get fucked up where Yank (By being idle and by allowing some events go as it wasn't supposed to, to say it nicely) and Imp, who you were allied to who grew an empire several times bigger than Spain's, thing is you don't like to get slowed by mods ruling and you ignore them, which eventually leads to you getting mod targeted, and my final comment is that We never said no one else in europe could colonize, we said that no one else in europe could colonize PRIOR to 1600. because in OTL even england and france waited until at least 1580 to start any attempts, in ATL spain, france and england face no more turmoil nor conflict which allowed the three of us to go, and a strong netherlands followed as well as a unified Scandinavia, and viva all you are trying to do is get everyone's attention into the mods so that no one focuses on you. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 00:42, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the "Speedier Exansion into Central Australia/Desert/Arctic etc." I am somewhat in agreement with you in certain circumstances. The Australia example is a good one. Britain arrived in 1788, claimed all the land East of 135*E and no-one challenged their claim. Such claims are all well and good, but there is nothing to actually stop another country from violating those claims except fear of war. In the case of Australia, the only nation which really had a remote chance/interest in colonising Australia was France, and after the French Revolutionary & Napoleonic Wars, they were too stuffed to risk it. In a hypothetical case where, let's say, (otl) Hamburg laid claim to all of Australia East of 135*E, basically any nation could have established a colony in that territory without Hamburg being able to stop them. So what does this mean in terms of the expansion rates? Well, I think we need to view the coloured regions as what our friends in the Berlin Conference would  have called "Effective Occupation". Sure, I may lay claim to all of Labrador (and other countries might recognise my claims if they feel like it), but the only areas in which I have "Effective Occupation" are the regions which are coloured. Now we get to the scenario where I agree with you. Let's say it's 1900 and Spain, Brunei, and Schaumberg-Lippe all control large areas of Australia, and all generally accept each other's claims. In such a case, I think the annoying "black spots" could be filled by mod event after an agreement amongst the parties is reached.

With regards to other things, I have a few thoughts. Firstly, Oyo is not Ethiopia. Ethiopia was a large, fully centralised, powerful, modern nation otl, and when it became powerful in PM2, it kind of made sense; of all the nations in Africa it was the one best poised to do so. Oyo is a whole other kettle of fish. It started miles behind Ethiopia, yet it was somehow expected that it would outshine Ethiopia's grand achievements of PM2 in minimal time. The other thing; don't lump all the mods together as some kind of ignorant scum, it should be noted that I backed up the fact that the maori actually did have such large boats. And I must say, I was extremely surprised when I discovered it was in fact true, so people shouldn't be disparaged because they shared my initial surprise/shock/disbelief. Perhaps sources could be provided (such as the ones I did) when bringing up surprising otl facts which on the surface appear completely implausible, but which were achieved by the same group in the same time period. I'm not suggesting referencing everything we do (or providing maps of currents...), but just things which are surprising. Callumthered (talk) 08:51, July 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * About the effective occupation, that was my method to do the map back in the second game.And part of the reason why i didn't tolerate straight-line border such as what Cour tried to do with his eastward Mayan expansion back then. (Your claims can be as straight-lined as you like, but no nation would be able to keep their settlements in a perfectly straight line from the others that belong to them) --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:48, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Cal, Oyo was also a modern, centralized government as well in OTL, not physically as large as Ethiopia, but was a population larger than Ethiopia's in 1400. The region Oyo was located in had a population of some ten million people, living on extremely fertile and mineral-rich land, while the whole of Ethiopia was home to about four million people (going on the fact Ethiopia only had seven million people by the 1800s) spread across highly mountainous terrain. Oyo had the same level of technology as Ethiopia, but lack the overall contact with the world, and thus its capabilities were only recently discovered. In-game, Ethiopia was whiped constantly early in the game, and constantly suffered setbacks that took the aid of Orissa to counter, while Oyo had more than a hundred years of peaceful growth and development. By 1500, Ethiopia was a rump state trying to fend off an invasion from Arabia, while Oyo was setting up colonies in the Americas. Finally, Oyo was not subject to the constant droughts, invasions, and setbacks Ethiopia suffered throughout the game. Ethiopia was invaded on three seperate occassions by 1500, while Oyo had conquered four nations in the same time. So your correct. Oyo is not Ethiopia. Oyo was strong, modern, and powerful. Ethiopia had been run over by three empires, turned into a vassal, and by the constant reminders of others, its population "ravaged" by the Caliphate, its navy "destroyed", and its people "terrified".

And to Sine, the Spanish suffered multiple rebellions in spite of their strength. The, the (twice), the , and the. But I'm not saying Spain shouldn't be powerful as it was in OTL. I'm saying it shouldn't be given a pass simply because it was in OTL. You have other nations in the game being crushed by constant uprisings because of "overexpansion", but Spain, Britain, France, and the Netherlands have suffered not once. None of those nations started off great, but had to work at becoming the empires they were. You have countless nations in the game striving to do the same thing, and you punish them for trying to become something youAnd I believe they shouldn't be. And if you paid attention to my previous post, I never said you don't allow other nations to colonize (except Pskov), I said you restrict their ability to colonize effectively or control where their colonies are able to be established. You did it with Hamburg, Oyo, Madagascar, and Hungary. Feud never answered my question, so now I'm asking you. How I'm I trying to get attention off of me? Everyone knows where I am, everyone knows what I do in my posts. Yet, you assume that I'm trying to shift attention from myself onto someone else for what reason? No one was focusing on me before this, why would I need to go through all of this trouble just to make sure it stays that way? I already told you my plans in chat. What could I possibly be up that I don't what people's attention, especially if what I'm doing is already bland and low-key? Answer me that. Because clearly I'm up to something. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:08, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Viva, Don't drag my nation into it, I have actually had numerous civil wars, political upheaval and several costly wars in Europe which are reflected in my colonization. I am behind Spain and France because I realistically dealed with my threats at home. I dislike your cloaked insinuations and assumptions.FOR THE GLORY OF THE PARTY!,LONG LIVE THE PARTY! 14:38, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

ummmmm in sorry in what moment have i been overexpanding out of all the countries mine has had one of the slowest expansions and i have 3 colonies one of which im still putting down a revolt (sunda) which i started myself in my own turn. the other one which i control through proxy, and the final one which i control due to the fact that it is purely dutch and im about to get into an indian war again caused by my own hand. mods have never had to really regulate me in any game since i control what occurs in my state well and actively create different events on my own. we have had this issue before Viva in AvA revolutions were you were turkey. With Blood and Iron (talk) 14:52, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

As One of those Small nations who had to cut a deal to survive, i am bassicly a colony ATM. That may change later, but for now I am bound 100% to Spain. And I am just pulling out of what was bassicly a civil war, so while the mods aren't sending events at the major powers, things still happen. Two wrongs may not make a right, '' but it makes me feel a lot better in the end! '' 15:50, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well then I'm sorry Andrew, but I've had to deal with the same cloaked insinuations and assumptions from the mods as well, such as the retarded (yes I said retarded), belief that if unchecked I WILL create a massive empire that breaks logic. Feud said it hismelf, as if that car accident now gave him the ability to see into the future. Sine himself just said that I'm up to something, but won't say why or with what end. As for you Nk, we only had this issue when I called the mods out for their one-sided actions, such as saying I couldn't use nukes to fight Egypt because there was a limit on how many I could use because of fallout, yet when the mods invaded my nation, they liberally used nukes on every city in complete disregard of their previous mandate against their use. When they started a Bulgarian uprising in my lands, I moved to put them down, but no matter what I did, the mods wouldn't let me stop them. Yet, when one of the mods had an uprising in their lands, they crushed it, and then used events to support their actions in doing so. I raised a fuss about it, but I was shut down. Everytime I said Turkey could do something, I always had a source. When I said Turkey was more populous that Iran, I gave a source. When I said Turkey had a large military, I gave a source. When I said Turkey could invade Egypt, I gave a source (I don't remember if that was an issue thought). Whenever the plausibility of my actions were question, I always gave a source proving I was acting plausibly. You remember what you want to remember. I have always played by the rules, told the truth and then given sources that prove it's the truth, and studied every nation carefully before choosing it and playing it. I wouldn't have selected the Maori if I didn't know that had ships (so don't say your "shocked" I was telling the truth), or the Oyo if I didn't know they could be developed and expanded plausibly. None of you have paid attention to my playing style from any of the other games I've been it. You know my actions from only one game, PMII, and even then, you let your opinions and personal feelings get in the way. That ruined the game, not me. So don't tell me I did something wrong when I didn't.  Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:22, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

You might not like limitations (to be fair, no one really likes having them), but they are absolutely necessary, in order to not let the game collapse into anarchy.

In a game with no expansion rules, if someone starts expanding more than the rest, the other players, even if they are usually plausible, will follow suit to not get left behind, after all, map games are about competition, deep inside.So, soon the expansion reaches implausible levels because one wants to keep up with the others' expansions.

Just before i joined the original PM (or was it while i was playing the early stages?) i joined a map game called Imperial Europe 2, playing as Hungary.No soon as i entered, the game died.Seriously.Three turns into my participation, everybody else stopped posting.The game was already about to die anyway, but this is beside the point.So, for the next 15 turns, i was the only player.Then i lost interest too and left it for dead.After i left it, more people entered.I must have been jinxing that game.What i just said might seem unrelated to the matter at hand, but, what happened later is.

The map game had some rules and moderators to ensure some degree of plausibility, but, after everybody left, there was nobody else to enforce them.then in 1453, Remedello (a player who used to run around map games playing nations in the Italian Peninsula and being all-around implausible, back in the day.) entered.With no one else to keep him in check and no expansion limits (plausibility was at the player's definition, practically), in only seven years, he, who started playing as the Republic of Genoa:



became this:



In 1457, Scandinator joined the game.and in order to not get left behind on the expansion, he began expanding implausibly too.After all, no one was there to enforce the rules that existed.So,given more 15 years....



It came to the point that later they had to make independence movements in their own nations to not let the game die.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:46, July 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * Jesus Christ, how did expand like that so fast? Saturn (Talk/Blog) 21:10, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against useful limitations. I'm arguing against unfair and unfounded limitations. Nations that have worked hard as establishing a strong, modern navy, are routinely passed over for certain colonization benefits by already-established navies from historical powers. Let's look at Eip's Bengal. Boy worked hard to expand his navy, yet he wasn't allowed to do anything significant with it. India's nations all had blue water navies for centuries, and established empires which control entire portions of Southeast Asia and Indonesia. Yet, when Eip turned that power onto the Indian nations neighboring him, he was called out for it, and limits were placed on his expansion. Indian powers who did not even like each other now work together against him? They wouldn't even do that when they were fighting the Mughals. And Pskov. It had the same capabilties as the Danes, the resources, the same manpower, and even the region, but because Pskov was "too small", it was denied colonial access. It had no enemies, and was developing greatly, but because peoples opinions, not facts got in the way, Pskov was kicked to the side. The moderators (you know who you are), put bogus limitations on nations which had the ability to do what they wanted, but were limited because a few knuckleheads didn't like what they saw. That's what I'm arguing against. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:37, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

So your throwing out has Spain and her empire has had no revolts or bad events. heres a few, some mod created and self created. Mayan (mod) Uruguay attacks (mod) Congo attacks, in which i lost territory (mod) Moroccan attacks (mod) Barbary pirates on malta (mod) Incan revolt (edge created it and did it himself) Mapuche unrest (self) Madagasikara unrest twice over that invasion of Zimbawbwe and then the recent one in which it fully reverted to my control, I had a near revolt in Seville over my union with Austria, large scale disease issues with settlers in South Africa. The list does go on but at this point its redundant. The fact is, your ignoring things unless they help you. Pskov had to go through straights, and had scandinavia as a bad guy against it, which means no he cant really colonize cause the straights can be blocked easily. I have no other issues to bring up cause your just going to keep throwing bogus claims and ad hominem attacks. Not to mention your unhealthy obsession with my Empire which your just trying to draw attention too because you want to make me a target so you can do whatever you want. Seriously the more comments you make the more its becomming borderline harassment. -Feud

Like you said Feud, the more powerful and bigger you become, the your actions are scrutinized and the more you are hated. Besides, you spearhard 90% of the moderator actions, and your the same-proclaimed "ASB-hunter", which in your case would be an oxymoron. But hey, you pushed me out of the game because I criticized your actions (which wasn't the aim of this post, since it was a critique of the rules and not the mods), so I guess it doesn't even matter anymore. I'm not in the game, and now you can run around building empires to the moon. Mission accomplished. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:45, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Swedish War of Liberation (1555-???)
Ok, so first of all, Scandinavian Empire controls Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It's that includes Danes, Norwegians, Swedes and even three other ethic groups. Just since the Engelbrekt crises, Nordics stopped the revolts and moving it's capital to Stockholm and makes Swedish as the primary language of the Scandinavian Empire.

Second, to based realty OTL for Swedish War of Liberation, The Swedish nobleman Eric Vasa (OTL: Gustav Vasa) and other his men in Uppland started an rebellion with  same name. The goal of the war is to match from Uppsala into Stockholm takeover Scandinavian government and then splits into three states, Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

And the third, If Sweden has won the war, The Scandinavian Empire collapses and Eric4e play Sweden here. This is an ongoing war.

Eric von Schweetz, You Young and Sweet Boy! 11:30, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Needless to say, uh, no. CrimsonAssassin-See you, space cowboys 13:42, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Sweden is the leading force in Scandinavia would prevent any such rebellion, at least regarding the creation of an independent Sweden. Could it happen in Denmark or Norway, yes, but in Sweden, not likely and not for independence.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 18:40, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Camping
I'm going to be camping for a week, but I will try to make minor edits to the wiki to avoid losing my progress for the Wiki Hero badge. Dax is free to copypaste as me for the intervening days. --Yank 21:28, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Main Map
I have returned to making the map, and have uploaded a version for 1559. This was done because the previous map being used was so beyond repair that I basically had to redraw a new map. On the map in use there were hundreds of thousands of square miles drawn in the ocean, continents stretched and moved, and entire landmasses added or deleted. I have redrawn the continents and for the time being I ask that Swanky abstain from editing the map to prevent this problem arising again. Since the map issues section was also outdated I have cleared it so that we can start fresh. Please post any problems you have there with specifics or maps and I will update the map for next turn. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 20:35, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Roman Empire (Attacker)
Total: 122
 * Location: +20
 * Location Bonus = +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Nations: Rome (L), Netherlands (L), Urdustan (L), Egyptian Loyalists (M) = 18/5 = +4
 * Military Development: 34/10 = +3
 * Economic Development: 24/7 = +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7 +3 +3
 * Modifiers: +4 +5 +6
 * Chance: +4
 * Edit count: 6808
 * UTC: 1*8*0*2 = 16
 * Total: 6808/16*pi = 1336.747674102545
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +28 (74,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 198,000/17,000 = +12
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Egypt (Defender)
Total: 45
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Egypt (L) = 5/18 = 0
 * Military Development: 10/34 = 0
 * Economic Development: 7/24 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Motive: +9
 * Modifiers: -2 -5
 * Chance: +7
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +7 (4,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 17,000/198,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
The Roman Empire may take 34.5% of Egypt, toppling the government and retaking the lands.
 * ((122/(45+122))*2)-1 = 0.4610778443113772%
 * (46.1)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 34.575%

Discussion
Done on request for MP. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:27, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, discuss first before making changes. Thank you.

Alexandria, Judea, and Aiguptia, as entities, no longer exist. The former two were both merged into Egypt proper, and Judea is literally part of the Empire and under military occupation.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:51, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Damascan-led coalition (Attacker)
Total: 132
 * Location: +20
 * Location Bonus: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Nations: Damascan Sultanate (L), Tartary (L), Mansuriyya Sultanate (L), Urdustani Empire (L) = 20/7 = +3
 * Military Development: 89/6 = +15
 * Economic Development: 69/6 = +12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7 +3 +3 +3
 * Motive Modifiers: +4 +6
 * Chance: +1
 * Edit count: 1,318
 * UTC: 2*0*5*5 = 50
 * Total: 1318/50*pi (3.14159265359) = 82.8123823486324
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28 (66,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 310,000/65,000 = +5
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Safavid Empire (Defender)
Total: 55
 * Location: +25
 * Location Bonus: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Nations: Safavid Empire (L), Bukhara (MV) = 7/20 = 0
 * Military Development: 6/89 = 0
 * Economic Development: 6/69 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Motive: +9
 * Motive Modifiers: -3 -5
 * Chance: +2
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +7 (2,500,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 65,000/310,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
The Damascan Sultanate may claim 34.3% of the Safavid Empire, toppling the government.
 * ((132/(55+132))*2)-1 = 0.4117647058823529%
 * (41.17)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 34.3083333333333333%

Discussion
Done on behalf of Swanky at his request. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:00, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Why does Damascan have a population of 66 million, I mean is that not too much? RexImperio (talk) 11:00, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

It is Damascus plus the Tartarty plus Mansuriyya plus apparently Urdustan. Fed (talk) 16:34, July 12, 2014 (UTC)