Talk:Moderator Page (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

'''ONCE AGAIN, EVERYTHING DISCUSSED HERE IS SECRET, MEANING NO COMPLAINTS. Moreover, you cannot contact any one moderator via their talk page, or anything. You will not like the result of violating that.'''

First things first!
OK guys welcome to our first official mod meeting! lol. Here you all may freely and calmly point out things that need our immediate attention. A few things I can think of right off the top of my head are: and so many more.... let us begin!AP (talk) 06:43, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Mayan Empire
 * The extremely large German colony in Antillia
 * The overzealousness of personal unions, most of which need to be broken by now
 * The lack of Indian attacks
 * The Incan Empire fiasco

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:32, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) what is this Incan empire fiasco?If you are referring to the part of the Aymarás breaking up, you should have came up with that earlier.
 * 2) I think that the German colony has expanded legitimously, when it comes to expansion rates, except for those times when he tried to expand 3000 sq km, but then, i made sure that the correct number was displayed on the map, But, he didn't annex the Iroquois.instead, he got a sizeable portion of their territory, and an outlet to the Lake Erie, according to the future 1585 map.
 * 3) It's not easy to break up a personal union.The only way to do it are by means of revolt, like OTL Portugal did in 1385 and 1640, but not every revolt is successful.
 * I don't think he's talking about rule breaking. We mean as in Indians need to attack this German colony the most desperately.
 * Also look at the proposed Ammendments for Talk Pages on PMII Talk Page.  Saamwiil, the Humble 12:29, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried, but i couldn't understand your point.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * We also need to clarify things. Like my colony is also supposed to be bordering Lake Erie but somehow the German colony is on its way to Michigan. We need to set up a colonial limit like at the Appalachians to prevent extreme expansion inland. Yeah, I propose the Huron Indians attacking and defeating the colony, taking control of the Canadian peninsula(their tribal land) and a very small part of western New York. But maybe not that much since its player loves to complain.
 * Aragon and Navarre need to break away and form Spain already. And we need to clarify Brandenburg's personal union with Austria. Austria was actually in personal union with Castille until their "last ruler died and was married to Bran.'s ruler." It actually never happened. People always find a way to evade the rules. Never mind on the Incan
 * AP (talk) 03:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, this thing is very chaotic (MP tries to form an peronal union with Castille, he leaves, Mawilda tries to form an personal union with Aragon and Austria, is rebuffed by everybody else.)but he said that the Austrian player left his nation to be controlled by whoever was the Emperor.And Spain in OTL basically formed with most of the Iberian peninsula on control of one nation.Aragon and Navarra only control less than one fourth of the Peninsula.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:35, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of of having more organised discussions, so that people don't have to repeat their argumetns over an over agains. Sample

XXXX's side/ For ZZZZZZ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

MMM'side/ Against ZZZZZ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyways, I'll begin on and Indian attack for the German colonies. Also, I am starting a new surge of Kappelism by a guy in Switzerland called Marex. Tired of Venetian missionaries abusing him to convert he has a 'holy dream'. This Marexism shpuld be kinda like OTL Mormanism in beliefs. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:55, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

A surge of Kappelist sentiment should occur at the turn of the century. They should rebel or something. Also, it is a bit implausible that a lot of nations(Venice in Milan/Genoa, Saxony in Altmark) are converting the people back to Catholicism. Conquered peoples don't comply, especially when it comes to the Reformation.AP (talk) 06:32, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

1590 will start Marex's dream, in 1595 he will have a small following, in 1600 (HRE's break up) he has a fairly large following in mainly Switzerland (still a minority), and a few in other countried 1606 he is assassinated by a Catholic Missionary who views his Christianity as a threat to Catholism (he is indeed a branch of Kappelism). The clear successor is the scond in command, the marexist High Priest of Yahavi. After that I'm open to suggestion on what is to happen to the groop. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:22, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I think the Indian attacks are overkill. The Indians driving out the Germans from Canada was fine, but pushing further east(more than the Iroquois homelands) is implausible. The new Kappelianism thing seems fine, though.AP (talk) 04:55, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

They aren't going to win anything in OTL New York, but they can keep them out of Canada, which SS seems to be having a fit about, because expanding implausibly is his 'God given Right'. I would like you to look at the key word in my mod event, 'try'. Saamwiil, the Humble 13:10, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

C'mon, it's not like he's taken all of Quebec in a single year. I do agree he's rather landhungry, but pushing them out of Canada should be enough. If you don't feel comfortable with letting him stay in OTL US then have the tribes that pushed 'im out of Canada form a kingdom or something. Fed (talk) 02:53, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

That's all I was planning on doing, Canadian tribes can't push him out of New York, many have already died to keep him out of Canada. Also, it has been made clear that he is reading the mod page. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:42, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

You don't have the right to post mod events, Saammy. Not to mention the fact that you quit the game, and thus no longer have a right to push your agenda on us. Even LG told you flat out that you were wrong. So why do you have to insist to stick around? --Yank 18:15, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, what should Marex's last name be? Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Marex never was a first name.this should be his surname, if we really want to be generous.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:07, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

Players violating the explicitly stated rules
So I won't name names, but there have been a few times already where players have a) Read the discussions here b) metagamed as a result and c) Have contacted a mod on their page regarding the discussions. We need to come up with an appropriate consequence to deter any future violations from any player. Should we let them off with a warning or do we act?( which would reinforce our ideas immediately).AP (talk) 23:57, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

It happened?Well, what is your suggestion? (on a side not, we need more mods here.there's only me and you here, and Saam isn't a mod.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:21, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

You should have notified the other mods that this page was here you know. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:41, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I made an announcement on the talk page...AP (talk) 09:16, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Also Collie, I wanted to get the other mods' opinions before I did anything; you know, to avoid the annoying bias complaints.AP (talk) 09:19, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Johan Marex
How the mod events will go, I will make a page for what the Johanist believe:

1590
A man by the name of Johan Marex, a noble weary of Catholic Missions in Switzerland from Venice to try reconvert him, says that in his dream, he saw God, and he is to bring true Christianity to earth. By the year's end, most of his family has converted to the new branch.

1592
Johan Marex has had many private talks with his friends concerning this new faith and many convert, but a majority exclude him from many of society's pleasures. Marex begins writing 'the Book of Laws' which he says to be the words of Yahavi (the holy trinity). There are many sections advocating the act of the rich giving to the poor, some sections making it sound mandatory.

1595
The city of Zurich has a relatively large Marexist/Johanist population, however still a minority. The message is very popular amongst the poor for its avocation of compassion, and the mandatory giving of those who have much to those with nothing. Albeit, the wealthy and the Catholics develop a rich hate for him.

1596
Johan Marex has set up small bases around Switzerland, some Churches are ordered to be built to house. Many of the rich in Bern 'see the light', amongst them Adolf Bernman who becomes, who in exchange for the tile 'High Priest of Yahavi', has given all of his personal wealth to the church coffers boosting its wealth. Marex also makes himself a distinguished feature by making his public hatred for Venice more obvious, and says that the Swiss Cantons must remain fiercely independent.

1597
In his centre of operations, Bern, Marex has encouraged converts from all over Switzerland to move to Bern, so that he may have a strong base, and that the word of Yahavi may spread more quickly. Using Swiss mercenaries, Marex has killed many of Bern's rich Catholics, adding loads of money to the Church's coffers. Most Kappelist are left alone, but some of the more rich are publicly harassed. Catholics, almost defenceless move mostly to Zurich.

1599
Marex has had 3 attempts on his life and becomes very paranoid, some of the revelations are abstract, adding mysticism to the new branch. Many chapter are set up in Burgundy.

1600
Bern has become crowded by member of Johanism, making the city very unsanitary, causing many sicknesses, before the city can expand to fit the new population's needs. Lucerne also becomes a major centre for Johanist

1606
Johan Marex is assassinated by a Catholic priest while making a cermon in Venice, a move he knew was risky. He is suceeded by Adolf Bernman, the Priest of Yahavi.

Discussion
So is this Saamwill's idea? How is he allowed on this page as he is not a moderator? Scandinator (talk) 10:03, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think that he considers himself to be a mod, as he hhit the 5 points on the voting.However, in reality, he isn't a mod because he hit 5 votes one day after Fed had hit 5, and the election was supposed to choose only two mods.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:43, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ideas
We should plan out larger events(I'm talking revolutions, secessions, wars, and major stuff not "The Sultanate of Microland-state annexes Reallylittletown" if you know what I mean. We can begin by planning certain events in the coming 17th century. I am writing in a long-overdue Dutch/Flemish revolt sometime in the 1690s. How long should I make it last? A bigger question is who will get Burgundy's colonies? If the Netherlands and Flanders gain independence, then Burgundy will become landlocked and no longer able to administer them. Tough question this is.AP (talk) 09:25, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Some of the Burgundian colonies are rather large. These would lose some area back to unexplored, and other parts to other colonizers. The core of the colony would likely ceade to France as they are closest in culture. The Dutch and Flemish will also leave the HRE. Scandinator (talk) 09:56, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I guess that the newly-independent nations would get some, but they would probably be reduced on size.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:59, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant late 1580s or 1590s. They(Burgundy I mean) are definitly losing the war, though. I might write it in next turn. About the colonies, I agree. The only thing that I see bad coming out of this is the immense amount of complaining that Burgundy's player likes to do--knowing him, he's going to metagame and give his "Coastal Colonies" (as he likes to call them) further autonomy.AP (talk) 19:52, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps just have part of the Netherlands gain independence (e.g. just Friesland). Otherwise Burgundy's colonies could be invaded by other nations, sold, the small ones collaspe, or they decide to join France or someone. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:04, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I was planning to centralise a bunch of the Colombian Andes into a Chibcha Confederation, so maybe that would take a bit of the inside parts of the Colombian colony, and another part can be annexed  by Cyprus; the rest should become part of the successor states or leave Burgundy with a small amount of ports. Fed (talk) 21:16, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to have the Netherlands and Flanders win their independence. Burgundy will lose its coastline, but it can always expand south and gain a Mediterranean coastline either through war or diplomacy so it's not that bad.AP (talk) 02:41, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

I have another idea.we could make Flanders and Holland (they don't have any reason to be called Netherlands controlling only half of the area.) split after the revolution is victorious.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by split?AP (talk) 08:17, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

That only after they are victorious, those nations will form.until then, will be major independentist revolt on certain cities (Hague, Brussels, Flanbders, etc.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:04, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

HRE break up
Okay Scraw has a plan to break up the HRE as seen here. I would like to break it up as soon as we can. But apparently Scan and AP are stopping this plan from succeeding. So yeah can you just let this plan be carried out, otherwise the HRE will never break up. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:58, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

I retconned the independence of North Bavaria, which is implausible and would not set the collapse back.AP (talk) 03:55, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

To be quite honest I didn't look too much into the matter. I just want it gone so just letting you know. I agree that is quite implausible, perhaps we should just end it ourselves. I mean I don't see how North Bavarian independence is so detremental to their plan... Guess we'll wait and see for a little while longer. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:43, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

More ideas
Here is where y'all post your ideas.

Here's a few:

Since this whole German thing, Aragon needs to break away and join Iberia or something. It's been way too long. If they choose to go to war, they will lose anyway.

We need to start having some of the ethnically Russian states join the RF.

A colonial restriction on colonization past the Appalachian mountains.

Anything else?

AP (talk) 03:25, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well, about England.Thay can't just stay fragmented forever, and i doubt that some player will enter as some nation there, what with Persia.So i thought on Wales annexing or vassalizing Wessex/Winchester and Mercia/Tamworth, and maybe expanding outward.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:34, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds cool. Like Wales dominating southern England. Also, what about Scotland? They haven't made a move in ages. BTW I think that the Apache player is being a bit implasusible... They are incredibly isolated and crossing hundreds of miles of unforgiving desert to contact Cyprus. In fact, he had his chief convert to christianity... I dont think this is plausible at all. They are too far inland for anything to be happening atm. Even when they contacted the Spanish, the Apache kept to themselves were around until the US obliterated them in the Red River Wars.AP (talk) 02:26, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

About Scotland, the problem is that Lurker is still around, but doesn't post.About the apache, Really.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:38, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Well just send Lurk a message then to let him know. Its not really a problem, but remember Northumberland has a player too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:38, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the Northumbrian player is basically inactive.20 days absent, at minimum is enough?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:19, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... China has had a long history of revolts, maybe we should do something with that? Scandinator (talk) 14:45, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah perhaps the north revolts and the Mongols regain independence? This could start a revolution and a new dynasty coming to power... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:50, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Metagamers
Looks like we have a fresh case of metagaming. A player has seen this page and has metagamed accordingly. Thoughts?AP (talk) 06:54, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well tell us who and what he did so those of us who haven't been playing for the past few days can find out. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:39, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Scraw read this page and that we were going to have Aragon revolt from Brandenburg. He then proceeded to ceding the throne of Aragon to his king's brother that very same turn. Eventually, i'm having Aragon join Collie's Iberia.AP (talk) 18:24, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget that Navarra is also on this personal union.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:16, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Rules
I think that it's about time to add the NPC bonus to the rules page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:58, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and a few of the other rules we decided upon on the talk page. We can use this oportunity to refine a few of the "precident rules" too. E.g. give a time limit to the algorithm score totaller (so you can join up wars into a larger series of wars to conquer another nation) and perhaps rise the 33.33% on these wars to 40%? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:47, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

And the NPC chance rule too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:00, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

So we doing this or what? A fair few important rules need to be added.

Plus can some of you come and intervene in making sure that this algorithm is correct too? We're having disagreements. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:52, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Ottomans=Christians?
What is going on with this Kingdom of the Romans. It was implausible when it became a Caliphate but now it just went off the deep end by converting to christianity out of the blue.AP (talk) 21:20, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Hit them with a civil war, divide it into Muslim and Christian parts. Crimea would rebel away too. It is implausible but a Christian coup d'etait makes a lil' sense. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

Yank
I'm sick to death of his bias towards certain countries. Something needs to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:48, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I agree, the mod events from the past two years(1603-04) have been extremely biased. I say negative mod event and, if he continues with his antics, a removal of moderatorship. I propose that (since he's all but ignored his "New Manchuria" colony) that colony be destroyed by something like Indians, natural disaster, etc. OR We could have Korea declare its independence.AP (talk) 05:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say Korean independence would be more likely. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:22, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I've dropped the last mod event. I promise not to pick on Von any longer. Yank 21:08, February 6, 2013  (UTC)

Thank you and make sure this doesn' happen a third time please.AP (talk) 02:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Map Issues
We need to stop having two maps, it's confusing and misleading. I'm getting rid of one of them.AP (talk) 02:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Why is everybody posting their own maps lately seeing they are almost equal to the original?there is a "Upload a new version of this file" button on the file.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

According to the rules, anyone is allowed to edit the map for their own nation. But there should be a limit. Also, we will from this point on we will NOT have two maps at once. I will leave one map up.AP (talk) 05:05, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I know, but people should not ignore this button and start to post their own maps in an different name when this map only includes changes to their nation and they are not the mapmakers.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:23, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I've updated with some of the missed out mod events, war results and most annoyingly, several things which I have to keep adding to maps as they aren't being carried over. Use this new updated 1605 map for the 1610 map because I am tired of having to constantly keep updating these maps to fix the same issue again & again, just because you keep forgetting to check to see if it is updated. The map get updated every year. If you are wondering why these changes are being made, I will explain the reason behind the changes you don't understand e.g. the mod event in 1584 destroyed Yaroslavl, Rostov and Vladimir so that is why they shouldn't be there. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:02, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I've also updated too. Use it for the 1610 map, I don't want to have to make the exact same changes to this map that I've had to do the past few maps. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:25, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Industrialization
OK we are a century away from this, but it's good to do things ahead of time.

These are the areas that should be able to industrialize when 1700 hits:

1) Northern Germany, this includes Denmark

2) Northern Italy

3) France(I think)

AP (talk) 04:04, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

We start industrializing in one location. It spreads out from there. At the moment, Brandenburg, China, Scandinavia and Venice are in prime position to start it. Only one of these nations will begin the Industrial Era. All four mentioned nations will likely hit at least 9 on the table by the start of the 18th century. Scandinator (talk) 09:22, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

If it starts in China then that could be very interesting. But I think it is too early to think about this stuff. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:53, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Russia
To begin with, I would like to point out that I'm doing this from a mod point of view given the fact that I have excellent relations with Russia in game. The Russians have illegally blocked the expansion of Cypriot and Dutch colonies in the Gulf of Mexico. How should we go about this?AP (talk) 01:39, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

I've had a look at the map and that is just a dick move. Undo his colonial expansion like it never happened expand his colony inland a bit instead but not as much as the rest of the land. I'd hit Russia with a negative mod event too. Perhaps Moscow tries to rebel away? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:03, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

All of these break-aways.
Two nations have broken away from the Catholic Church for the mere sake of having the "religious freedom in terms of science" point on the industrialization chart. It's more implausible for Italy, with their nation being overwhelmingly Catholic and the fact that Italians pride themselves on the notion that they are the seat of the Catholic Church worldwide. Germany is on the border. For now it's just Northern Germany, which was originally Protestant so I guess its fine but still a thinly veiled way of getting points.AP (talk) 01:51, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well use a mod event to punish them then. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:25, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Super Implausibility!
Has anyone else noticed the sheer implausibility of the Apache? I've read their posts and they make the Mayans seem plausible! We need to do something. Now.AP (talk) 02:23, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

I, for one, ignore everything he does.sometimes, i expand his nation a bit.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:17, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Schism
Given this year's event, does somebody think that a Western Schism-like schism within the Catholic Church would be possible?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:16, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

It already kind of happened, Germany and Italy broke away. The remaining Catholic nations will have to be the British ones, France, Ireland, and Iberia(including Aragon). Are you planning to break away Collie? If you do, i think Castille and Leon will revolt.AP (talk) 01:36, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

No.I was just thinking if would be possible for a antipope to appear somewhere.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

Problems in India
I know that none of you bother to read Orissa's posts, but has anyone noticed what they are doing? Supposedly, they vassalized the Netherlands! How do we go about reversing this(assuming all of you agree with the fact that that is majorly implausible)? If not, i'll just have a nationalist revolt.AP (talk) 04:56, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is implausible.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:04, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

THey've done many other questionable things too. But I've not been able to get online this week so couldn't do anything sooner. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:03, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I was going to make an event but was not sure whether you guys called it implausible. Fed (talk) 00:08, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

He's posted three times as the Dutch. I warned him twice, if he posts again it's a ban. And I totally agree with Von. He's complaining that I'm biased when I clearly just enforce the rules. So he breaks the rules and blames me when I strike it out?AP (talk) 02:24, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Now I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm loosing interest in this game fast, there are too many people breaking the rules, not enough respect for the mods, a horrible situation concerning the maps needing to be constantly updated for things which have already been fixed, excessive colonization, all player nations thinking they're super powers (especially the European ones) and many actions way ahead of their times. I have lost a lot of hope for this game. I think we need to bring many more punishments against players for these rule breaks and ensure that the game doesn't become more implausible than it already is. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:53, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Willster
He have a problem.Willster22 (Granada) has switched nations for no apparent reason, given that his nation still exists.And now he's saying that he can do it because there is nothing on the rules about it.And in fact, we have nothing in the rules that says explicitly so, but his action is forbidden.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:28, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

THen just add it to the rules, it is a rule. Everyone else knows it is as does the rest of the mods. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:02, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Then what are we going to do about his actions?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:34, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Rule-Breaking/Punishments
So, Von's suggestion has inspired me to do this.So, what should be done if people start to post too early again? Airlinesguy just has posted 15 minutes before the turn started.what should be done in this case, as in, if either he or somebody else starts to do this frequently?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Just remind him when to post, that isn't a massive rule break, it harms no one. If he keeps doing it then we can punish him but this isn't a major problem really. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:38, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Puppet States
As it is being shown, people alre already starting to get these.i propose that the rule that we used for this on the first game be resurrected: For each puppet state a nation has, one point is deduced on the algorythm for the nation.

Although i question whether this point would be deduced if the puppets enter on the war, on in every situation?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:14, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say all situations, as they still have to spend large amounts of resources to ensure that they keep control over their puppets. This would effect their ability to wage war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:20, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lx
Given the state of the map issues discussion in 1635, i am trying to make a map that, well, adds their gains without violating rules, or be implausible.And again, there is the Russian issue.obviously, this is one of three or four issues with it, but it can be summed up as: Lx went to war with three states, could not win by enough, changed his govenrment mid-war to get a x1.5 bonus, and now he claims to have annexed them because their capitals can't exist, as they didn't historicaly existed or were important until the 18th century.the latter still sounds like a good point, but he's also contsting the result of the algorythm, so what should i do? add them, or keep my version?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:41, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lx has been very annoying with his constant complaining and he has broken the rules so I rule that he shouldn't get his way. His reasoning doesn't matter, he broke the law. He is highly implausible as well as rapidly expanding Russia he is also expanding his colonies. He is over-extending his nation too much via implausible actions and breaking the rules. Russia should go into an economic downturn as they are doing too much at once. This would serve as punishment for his rule breaks. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:29, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

You bettter do this event yourself, as as soon as the map comes up, he is going to complain again about that and the colonies.i'm dealing with enough complaining already from him and Scraw.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:43, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really fancy being the bad guy again, any other mods fancy doing the event? I mean I don't mind but if someone else does it he can't complain about "bias". Also what do the rest of you think about this? Any other thoughts/ideas? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:49, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

But how we're going to get the other mods here to answer you? there's been five days that the only people around here are me and you.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:46, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'll message them. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:29, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I have to say that I'm not fond of his disrespect on the talk. What sort of punishment are you considering? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 19:41, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

it is on Von's reply to my post.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:44, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 19:49, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I honestly think Lx has had it hard enough... He had to deal with the massive Caliphate which got him starting all over again and then several implausable states appeared out of his territory. I think we should just do a direct negotiation with him instead of appearing high and mighty and issuing bans... Anyways, I'm settling into university and my activity should increase soon. Collie I need to take over the map again since there are colour problems... and hordes of angry people with map problems... Scandinator (talk) 21:53, March 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Look, i know what i'm gonna do on the map.and i'm trying to fix the color problems.And, what you are planning on this plague? is it a conspiracy against me? (sorry, i got my reasons to be paranoid about things.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:49, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I do agree with Scan a bit here. The caliphate messed everyone up. If they had balkanized Italy or Scandinavia, we'd both be scrambling to do what Lx is doing. Not to mention that eastward expansion has been halted by all this, they should be nearing the Pacific in a few years.AP (talk)

The latecomers apparently have missed the point.the point of this discussion, initially, was know if i should add his conquest of the three states bordering Moscow at east on the 1590's, which never happened because he tried to get the 1,5 bonus by changing his government/having a revolt with the war already going on.And at the same time, those three states have no place that can be a capital to them, according to Lx.Later on, i try to make an event throwing Komi into civil disarray, to solve this problems, and then he starts to complain that i'm acknowledging that state's existence.It was not exactly about him, it was about the map.And all opinions i got unitil now is Von saying that i shouldn't add.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:49, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Excatly, he fixed the algorithm to have it tweaked in his favour by using an illegal move. However I am now thinking we should change this war to him conquering just one of those 3 nations and then send Russia into an economic depression for 5 years. I think we say Komi got conquered in that war where Russia invaded the 3 states and the rest managed to repeal LX's invasion. I think this is a better compromise then what I suggested earlier. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:16, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but your suggestion can't be done. in 1630, i added his territory conquered...without the 1.5 bonus.in my version, they invaded those three, and only took small parts of each one.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Actually that is probably a better idea, a bit of each of the 3. I like it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:15, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Discussing Controversies
Now, i had this idea, and the idea is take the problems on the map and discuss how they should be dealt with.this is supposed to reduce the stacked-up errors and ommissions on the map.Obviously we'll start with past problems.My idea is me taking those past problems here and then, we reach a conclusion in what to do.since the 1640 will be up today, there will be no time to add things in 1640.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:14, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Khandesh Question
So, the first problem will be Khandesh.During the famine of 1630-1632, Orissa apparently "expanded into Khandesh, provided its people with food and removed its king", on Imperium Guy's own words.

So, i would like to know whether i should add this on the map.at the same time, this sounds illegal (expanding in a stable nation with no war?) and almost convincing (what if this is inciting khandesh's people to join his nation?).And there is no precedent to situations like this, so i need third opinions to whether his expansion should be added or not.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:14, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

To conquer another nation you should either enter dynastic union, vassalize them or war with them. What Imp did does make sort of sense but it is breaking the rules. Perhaps we only allow that for nation's in civil disarray? I mean the King and his supporters wouldn't be happy with Orissa coming in & changing everything about. A war would happen. Hence what Imp did is illegal in my views but we should allow this if the state is in civil disarray. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:10, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand
The Second problem is New Zealand and Orissa.the discussion on that war back on the talk page already is telling enough so i don't nned to tell details.the point is: should i add his gains on the map?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:15, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

No one should have visited New Zealand as in OTL it was visited in 1642 and not until 1769 was it revisited and the coastline mapped. Not only that but is an awful place to colonize when you compare it to the spice islands or expanding into India. Imp is making a stupid move, implausibly. If I was active when all of that was going on then I would not have allowed it. But perhaps it should be allowed since no issues where raised earlier. Maybe we just use a mod event to have the Maori kick the Indians off the island and then enshrine that no one is allowed to re-visit New Zealand until 1760?

Any other mods got thoughts on this matter? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:56, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yo, that's exactly the reason why i'm asking you this.somebody made an event destroying his colony on New Zealand, he delclared war on the Maori, and now we come to this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:07, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I've added a mod event, I expect you to back me up if it kicks off. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:57, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Civil Disarray
We need to crack down on these people taking advantage of the civil disarray rule. We need to dictate that they do not expand into a nation by 10,000 sqkm and instead will have to expand using their colonial rates. Also, we should limit the amount of expansion into a disarray state to ONE at a time. That way we don't have Pegu and Gujarat being expanded into by the same nation. Lastly, we should establish a precedent that,to expand into a nation in civil disarray, one needs to ''already have a colony there. ''For example, Germany has no colony near Pegu yet is expanding into it. Same with Gujarat, but that violates the blocking of colonies rule.AP (talk) 04:29, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly.And i think that states on civil disarray that were stable nations shouldn't stay too much time on this situation, as in some cases, a new government would form.Although i disagree with the Guujarat part, as he even though actually has a colony on India, just south of Mysore, he himself said that he is expanding Mysore, which is his puppet, into the area.Although i agree with you on Pegu., as he tried to claim that Bone is expanding there even though Bone is nowhere near Pegu.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:37, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yep I agree to. Founding a colony then expanding it into civil disarray regions by the colonial expansion rate is exactly what I've done with my Bengkulu colony. Though that thing about Mysore puppet expanding into Gujarat is questionable if you consider the vast distance between the places. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:56, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention that expanding into Gujarat, which is supposed to be Portuguese, is just a dick move. So I'm adopting this resolution and enforcing it this turn.AP (talk) 18:06, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Coupling Results
Now, there are a lot of people declaring wars agains the same country one after another.However, some peopel are claiming to have conquered a country in the second war even if the last war was 40 years ago.So, do we have a limit for that (until how much time results of different wars agains the same country can be coupled to topple the enemy's government)? if no, what it should be?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:58, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Taken from the "other" section of the algorithm rules on the rules page: ''You can add together winning percentage scores in order to total 33.33% if all of the wars happened within a 30 year period. Meaning if in two wars with 14 years between them both score 17.00%, then added together we get 34.00% which is enough for the losing nation's government to collapse. You can use any number of wars as long as they take place in the 30 year period. This 30 year period starts from the end of the first war. The nations must be the same nations fighting in all of the wars for this rule to apply. For example, if England invades France and wins by 28.50%, Germany cannot use the 28.50% combined with their war victory of 21.28% against France. The exception to this rule is if the original nations are both part of a larger coalition of nations e.g. Germany and England invade France. Sending military aid or supplies does not count as being part of the coalition.''

The limit is 30 years. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:27, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Too many vassals
I've noticed that several nations have way too many vassals, some that are too small to make a major contribution in a war(but the algorithm is blind to this). AP (talk) 20:37, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I think that the problem there isn't that nations have too many vassals, but that we aren't regulating plausibly concerning which nations can help in a war. Some nation in India or Asia shouldn't be getting involved in wars in Europe for example. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:15, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Enforcing Rules
"Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles)".That's what the rules say about how to calculate chance on the algorythm.and yet nearly everybody is still using their total number of edits like they don't know how to find their main number (and i know that at least one user doesn't know how to find it).so, from 1651 on, i will be enforcing this rule.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:47, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

I also don't know how to do this. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:05, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

This just helps prove my [thesis?}.Well, the way it is done is more like that:

Digit http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Editcount and digit an user's name on the bar.then you will see the quantity of edits. the main page edit s are the ones on a section "(Main)", right below the total number.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:21, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I'll bare that in mind, though I don't see why we don't just use the edit count on the top of our user profile pages. Everyone knows where that is. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

Because it is not useful for finding out how many edits in main pages the user has.Me, for myself, i got 4125 edits on main pages right now, and my total number is 6694.The top-page editcount says i got 6688 edits and does not go further in detail. this means the top-page editcount omits certain things even from the total number, and you can't find out how many edits on main articles does one have with it.That's why usual Edit count is used.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:53, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

I meant to use as the number that we use in the chance calculation not how to work out the edits for main pages. As in does me using my main edit count of 3,845 opposeed to using my total edit count of 6,635 really make a difference? Its just being used to create a random number afterall and the total edit count changes more often so it creates more random results. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:27, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

But the number of main page edits is the number that must be used to work out the chance. And, a number change makes a difference.various algorythms have been changed with the use of one over the other.And, with this last point, then you are talking about changing the rules.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:13, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

France
This nation has been balkanized twice already. It's kinda ridiculous. I think we should allow a regular player(like Burgundy) to reunify France under one banner.AP (talk) 00:45, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the part that this seems ridiculous, but France has already been united.There ain't no more claimants.Be aware that: Occitans ≠ French. So, Aquitaine and Toulouse's independences are legitimate, while La Marche and Angoulême are just states founded by warlords that weren't deposed.in fact, La Marche is a French vassal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yes but they are part of the overall cosmopolitaine cultural group.AP (talk) 23:29, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed it shouldn't be balkanized again. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:38, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

I also agree, but the current divisions already sound good enough.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

I think this should be all-encompassing... not just for France. Inactivity shouldn't always lead to total collapse.AP (talk) 07:44, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

I also agree with that. and plus, some of those nations that fall into civil disarray should eventually stabilize, either whole or splitting itself into some states, but we can't have a state on civil disarray for over 100 years, or something like that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:14, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Map Problems
I noticed that some users are undermining the colonial expansions of others(myself included). I believe that this constitutes a violation of the map rule "Anyone may edit the map on behalf of their own country," since they are editing another country's colonies simply to benefit themselves.AP (talk) 23:29, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Care to name these users so that we are on the same page? Because if they've been warned before then they should be severly punished for continuing to break the rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:28, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Aragon
So, back in the more ideas section, two months ago, AP said :

"Aragon needs to break away and join Iberia or something. It's been way too long. If they choose to go to war, they will lose anyway."

The first part is not important, as they have already broken away, so let's focus on the last part.after all, last time that we made Aragon independent, Scraw simply recurred to the algorythm and took it back. Whoever made that event, in this case, the procceedings with a possible Branedenburg-Aragon war should the same as with the Netherlands when they declared independence from Burgundy: If they (in this case, Brandenburg) choose to go to war, they will lose anyway.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well, this got dated fast, as he has already given up.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:56, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Tierra del Fuego
Is it possible to colonize this area yet? I mean it wasnt colonized until very late in OTL... but Japan has established a colony there. Thoughts?AP (talk) 23:44, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Yes and no. It was discovered in 1520 by Magellan and people knew it was there. But they were scared of the natives, it was mountainous & cold and so people didn't colonize it because they saw little worth in the island. However it is strategically important for Japan, especially if they want to reach the Atlantic. So I'd allow it but make sure that they don't go crazy with it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:27, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

So native attack a few years from now?AP (talk) 22:12, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

If the Japanese expand too much and don't have good relations with the natives then please do. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:00, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Industrialization
OK so now that we have a pretty good idea of where countries stand in terms of industrialization(and the fact that we are about 40 years away from 1700), we need to come up with an orderly way of conducting this. A rough outline would be something to do.. Should we have one country begin and then the next can begin like 5 or 10 years later? We also have to be very realistic with this, every nation will want to be industrializing and that frankly won't happen. This is why we plan things a while before.AP (talk) 00:03, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

Any ideas at all?AP (talk) 05:41, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Not with me.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:09, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Who will start? Perhaps we do it in the order of the nations with points in the list of industrialization points. Not sure what we do if its tied mind you. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:14, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

We should start with the top scoring nation's ''continent. ''If i have 12 points then we begin there and spread geographically. At least, that's what the rules say.AP (talk) 22:58, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Other undefined situation
Well, since the 1600's, AP has been trying to annex the Incas, which are his puppets, even though they (the inca) are about the size of his colony, and annexing them when they are not vassals, would,theorically, violate the rule about not annexing stable nations with no war.So, would that be allowed?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:35, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

No it shouldn't be allowed as the Inca are powerful enough to resist this as they wouldn't like to lose further powers to the Scandivians. Hence a revolt and war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:39, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

They're not powerful at all. They're weak and subjects of the Viceroy... This is exactly what the Spaniards did, they didnt straight up annex them, they kept several weak rulers for a couple decades, but they were nominally part of New Spain. This is equitable to like the Indians in the English American colonies revolting-- very unlikely. They've been practically destroyed by disease and can't do much.AP (talk) 17:25, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

They'd still kick off after losing yet more power. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:47, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't really make sense... They're powerless and 90% of their population died when the Europeans arrived. There's a reason why native empires never really rose again OTL and ATL.AP (talk) 22:56, April 6, 2013 (UTC)