Talk:1983: Doomsday/Archive 7

Religion
Hi all, don't contribute alot to discussions...hence I make a lot of mistakes. I've noticed that religion has not been a point of discussion in the TL and wondered what people thought? I've posted a proposal on the and Catholic Church, I'll also expand on a religious stub for the, but would really like to see something on other christians, buddhism, Islam and indigenous religions of Australia 22 September 200 9 15:38 Mjdoch

I brought up religion and foreign embassies a month or so ago, no one focused on it much. Mr.Xeight 17:22, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I would see a rise in atheism in the areas less affected, and a rise in religion in those more affected. From a "If there was a god he wouldn't let this happen" kind of opinion, but in the more affected areas, religion is all the people would have left.--Oerwinde 20:33, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Just to remind folks that unhelpful comments such as the one listed under the Celtic Alliance and Europe really are not part of the TL rules..."Today, it offers hope and social welfare that contrasts the nihilism of the few remaining atheist circles". Sorry but if people happen to be athiest so what, it is not our place to judge peoples moral or social parameters. We must be mindful that christians fire atomic bombs too. Would fellow users be ok if this was removed? Mjdoch 30 September 2009, 16:11 (GMT)
 * IMO I think the events of Doomsday might actually weaken the numbers of athiests in the post-Doomsday world. Like the old saying goes "there are no athiests in foxholes" and I guess the Earth just became one big foxhole for the survivors of Doomsday.  Sure people are going to ask "how could God allow this to happen" but the need to survive will cause people to turn to things to keep them going more then just food or shelter can, such as faith in God.  That being said I agree that the line you quoted comes off as too POV.  It almost sounds like an advertisement for the Catholic church.  Mitro 17:19, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Although the Islamic world is also affected by nuclear war, it is less so than Christianity. This is mostly seen through the eyes of Muslims as a proof of the righteousness of God, an "aleiah", but then there are multiple trends ranging from radical Islam to secularism in those countries that are forced to accommodate large groups of refugees and thus become multi-ethnic nations, the first group includes Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, countries of the Arabian peninsula and many other nations in the islamic periphery, the other group includes Egypt, Lebannon, Western Sahara (Pais del Oro), Rif and others.

On the other side, Judaism has not yet said anything, it seems that Israel not only survives but even magnifies; Would be fall into the hands of radical Jewish tendencies? Will build the third temple?Tristanbreiker 10:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Movies
whith Hollywood/Vinewood gone how will the film industry develop--Owen1983 16:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please try to follow the right format when adding new topics. That being said, Australian and South American movies would come to dominate the world film market but it would be a while after DD before they reach a world wide market.  Mitro 16:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What, no Bollywood? Louisiannan 22:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I think India needs to focus more on its mutinous warlords first. Mr.Xeight 00:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever dude, but Bollywood would still exist, I am not a fan though. Despite the warlords, it'll be there, I am Indian so I know more about this stuff. Obviously, Bollywood will emerge as the world leader in film industry, it is next to Hollywood anyways. MC Prank 16:40, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know India *here*, Prank. You don't necessarily know what Xi'Reney and the others have understood India to be following Doomsday.  I think that Mr. Xeight may be closer to the truth of the matter -- Bollywood as it is today may be some ways off yet. Louisiannan 17:34, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Louis is right. It has only been since 2003 that  has received a stable government (the UIP) in the post-Doomsday world, but that was shortlived and the rump UIP has only tenous control at best.  Such an atmosphere is not conducive to a major movie industry in any country.
 * Furthermore India's nuclear weapons are still unaccounted for in this TL. Which warlords have them?  Have they ever used them?  Could Bombay/Mumbai being a radioactice crater, a target of a Delhi warlord?  I still think any movie industry will be farther south in South America or Australia/New Zealand.  Both are part of the "first world" in this TL and thus have more time and money to spend on entertainment then war-torn (potentially radioactive) India.  Mitro 18:09, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah alright, whatever, but man I didnt think that this idea of India being divided into warlordships and breakaway states is plausible. First of all, in 1983, one party, Congress ruled almost all the states, i.e. they won elections in all the states. Though the constituion of India, made it more or less a federal country but before 1990s, India was practically a unitary state. The Central Govt. (i.e.Federal Govt) had strict control over the states. Moreover, guess what, Indira Gandhi, the most authoritarian & pro-unitary Prime Minister the country ever had, was in office on 26 Sept. 1983. Anyways, now that you have done this, I'm telling you, warlords cant have nukes. There are no nukes assembled, the nuclear core is kept separate and the fission device separate. No single warlord can have it alone. There would be, at most a dirty bomb. Although if warlords collaborated, they could have proper nukes. MC Prank 15:50, September 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * The early 1980s wasn’t exactly a period of peaceful unity for India. There was the rise of insurgents in Punjab; violence in Assam between native villagers, refugees from Bangladesh and other Indians; tensions with the Sikhs after Operation Bluestar; abuse of civil liberties; and hell Indira Gandhi would be assassinated by her own Sikh bodyguards in 1984 touching off the death of over 3000 Sikhs.


 * Factor in the current events and it is not exactly that hard to believe that India would collapse after Doomsday. Though not directly targeted, they would suffer all the effects of the radiation clouds engulfing the northern hemisphere.  Radiation poisoning would kill many people and seriously effect the food production of India leading to famine and violence as people tried to get food to feed their families.  The loss of the large economies of the US, Europe, USSR, China and Japan would also cause India’s economy to take a nose dive and lead a significant percentage of the population being unemployed.  It wouldn’t be difficult to predict that some secessionists or power-hungry generals would take the opportunity to assert some control over their specific areas.


 * Maybe you are correct about India’s nuclear weapons (I will have to look it up), but it doesn’t seem like it would be difficult to get the specific parts and rebuild the weapon. Mitro 16:10, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

It is not maybe, I am correct about India's nukes, and as for the Indian ballistic missiles, they were not fully developed yet. 2-3 or more warlords would have to collaborate together could have proper nukes though. Getting nuclear weapons wont be very difficult, but it wont be easy either. Also, the Emergency was imposed in 1977 not in 1983. Its Operation Bluestar that takes place in 1983 MC Prank 05:06, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming the Indian air force had bombers that could also deliver the weapons. Also all of the events I refereed to happened roughly between 1980 and 1984 and are meant to show that the Indian political scene was unstable enough during the early 80s that the political, economic, and environmental implications of Doomsday could splinter the country.  I never mentioned the Emergency which lasted from 1975 to 1977, I'm not sure why you brought it up though I apologize if I accidentally referred to something that happened back then.  Blue Star also took place in June 1984, not in 1983.  Mitro 21:27, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Okay I'm confused. How did a discussion of the Post-Doomsday film idustry turn to the totally unrelated subject of nuclear weaponry? Can we go back to discussing what the Post-Doomsday filmakers would put on the silver screen. Obviously not anything like The Terminator, because the film's future is too much like this timeline's present. --Yankovic270 22:09, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Well, there could be both optimistic & pessimistic alternate history films, one with a failure in the Cuban Missile Crisis and one in which DD never happened. Talking about Sci-Fi, what about some movies with an A.I. force trying to take on the dismantled and nuclear war-torn humanity. -- MC Prank 14:07, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alternate history films aren't that popular, really. I don't see why they'd become popular in this timeline. Superhero films, however, would probably exist. Romances will probably always exist. --DarthEinstein 16:02, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

How about a sci-fi film where a guy fom "our" universe got transported to the 1983: Doomsday universe, where he has to stop an evil plot orchestrated by a fictional group of Neo-Nazis in Argentina to take over and establish a "fourth reich" in South America. The Neo-Nazi leader could be based on Josef Mengele, Klaus Barbie or any of the other Nazis who escaped to South America. Or He could be an entirely fictional character like Arnold Toht from Indiana Jones or Deathshead from the Wolfenstein video games. When I say "like", I mean "similar to" and not completely copying. --Yankovic270 20:04, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Is anyone there? Anyone? --Yankovic270 12:55, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * About your idea above: I would try to stay away from anything involving "our" universe. The rest of it looks fine, though, because in movies the most crazy things can happen. --DarthEinstein 13:09, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

By "our", I mean what the people in the 1983: Doomsday universe imagine our universe to be. Either that or the guy is from a near to far distant future of the Doomsday timeline. When the effects of Doomsday (ie Radiation) have finally vanished. --Yankovic270 16:33, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

And my nation of Virginia would likely produce a propaganda film describing its rise to power, and how "terrible" things were before they "rescued" Virginia. --Yankovic270 14:35, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

"Dust" of USA
In 1983 the US had a population of around 230,000,000 and had maybe thousands of nuclears weapons rain down from the sky onto their hapless soil. How big was the attack? How many people died? How many survived 1983? In order for a natural evolution of the population of the bombed-out remains of the US, how many people should survive and how many people should each splinter-nation have in its boundaries? Am I correct when I say Superior has 6,000,000 citizens? What about the other nations within the former United States? You can count it, I however question it.Fero 04:00, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Superior has that many citizens specifically because it receives refugees from both the US and Canada. At the same time, abortion has been discouraged in recent years in the Republic, resulting in a nice baby boom. Lahbas 13:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * we have a lot of "countries" in the Canada-USA frontier, some of them are weird, but i think we need a place to the arround 6 millions peoples ive in southwest of USA, Gulf of Mexico states, "black states" (i must not use the N word because is nasty in english), what all that people do where they go, where they stay, what is not destroyed in that zone CSA region need a living town--Fero 02:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's true, though I don't know much about the region. Though, maybe there could be a nation called "Aztlan", named after the mythological Aztec homeland. Or maybe an Apache country. DarthEinstein 02:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * we dont need aztlan, we have not nuked Mexico, i am talking about Texas, Florida an the land betwine them, there is nothing aztec--Fero 03:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, race issues will certainly heat up again in the South, after having only been settled in the last couple of years, and there will likely be “white” and “black” nations dotting the landscape, no one big nation like there is in the North. Texas is a wasteland, having been a major population center, as well as being a supplier of US oil. Florida would suffer a similar fate, but mostly on the southern tip. The Deep South is what would largely escaped unscathed, except for major cities like Birmingham and Atlanta. I’ve largely finished Superior, so I may take up a drafting of the region sometime this week and present a format. Lahbas 03:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think groups like the Klan would be easily able to sieze power in the unaffected parts of the South. I see a considerable portion of western Texas not even being touched by nukes and also parts of New Mexico and Arizona. A fascist state in this part is very much plausible. What about the White Republic of America or something like that? User_talk:MC_Prank


 * I think Texas will be largely on its own, though, given that to get to the more "ripe" prospects to the west there are large deserts, whereas there's much arable and usable land to the north and east that will likely draw Texan attention more than the blasted deserts of the west.


 * Speaking of which...whoo-boy, what a mess Phoenix and Santa Fe would be! Louisiannan 18:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

What if we have a citystate in the midwest lead by a former criminal? And could have people used the underground facilities of Alcatraz as a bomb shelter? If so I can see a small amount of people scratching out a primitive existance on the island. They could use Peruvian terrace farming techinques and hardy crop varieties. --Yankovic270 21:22, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

And since Alcatraz Island has had tours since it was closed 20 years pre-DD, it is plausible that the people surviving are tourists who were allready on the island. Also another factor that makes it plausible as a impromptu bomb shelter is the network of tunnels that the island hosts. The Civil War fort under the prison could be turned into a bomb shelter. And potentially the wind patterns could have blown the fallout/radiation away from the island. --Yankovic270 21:41, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Is everyone speechless because of how good the idea is? --Yankovic270 20:13, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... a nation of tourists on Alcatraz? I kind of like the idea. Also, if you want to get the attention of people, try making proposal pages for these ideas. --DarthEinstein 21:53, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

I'll create it with the way I usually do it. By inserting it on the Domsday Nation page. And the creating it after. --Yankovic270 14:11, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I know its not entirely accurate, but http://www.carloslabs.com/node/20 shows that a bomb targeted on San Fran, would leave Alcatraz in the shock zone of the bomb destroying any quake proof buildings on the island.(based on the Ivy Mike 10.5 mt bomb simulation, as the common bombs during the cold war were 7-10 mt.)--Oerwinde 08:01, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

And I might place the Republic of Lincoln in Lincoln, Nebraska. Was there any atomic impacts near the city/town? --Yankovic270 13:44, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like Omaha would likely be the closest target.--Oerwinde 17:10, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone see any merit to a survivor state in western Texas? The FEMA target map does list hits in Amarillo and Lubbock, but none in Midland nor Odessa, nor Carlsbad NM.--BrianD 04:51, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * When I first started editing here I proposed that area would ask for help from Mexico, but it did not garner that much interest. Mitro 12:49, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm interested, but my main question is could a group of communities survive in that area for this long? If so, then I propose there are people there, but their living standards are 18th century. They did ask for help from Mexico, but when Mexico triaged the border states the Texans considered that as Mexico saying 'no' and going its own way. The Texan leaders also were resolute to stick to themselves and, if anyone survived elsewhere in the US, that's fine, but western Texas is going to do its own thing. 27 years after DD, though, the kids are taking over leadership of the de facto Republic of West Texas and are interested in exploring points north, west, east and south to see what they can find. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them ran into parties from Dinetah or Deseret or the NAU....--BrianD 14:24, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Just created a page with a very rough outline for the history of the Republic of West Texas (1983: Doomsday).--BrianD 15:43, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Also, on the world map for the timeline I noticed several dots in Florida and southeast Georgia. Are those intended to be Cuban settlements, or representative of survivor communities?--BrianD 04:52, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Cuba has been scouting out the area. I believe they stand more for just "presence" or "influence."  Mitro 12:49, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like they've established quite a presence, and that no Americans survived in that area (because people aren't going to take kindly to Communist invasion). In canon, has it been established that the deep South is totally depopulated?--BrianD 14:28, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

I do like the idea of survivor states like West Texas that are being discovered as the other states gain the means and time to more easily explore their respective regions.--BrianD 01:03, October 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I would assume that some communities in the South still exist, though there is likely to be heavy racial infighting due to old habits. Cuba would have no interest in Florida. Their only community in the entire state, of any major size, is in Miami, which would be destroyed. Lahbas 03:27, October 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * But Cuba went all the way up into Georgia, and somehow uncovered the secret formula for Coca-Cola (which is a neat little twist for this timeline). They might have initially been interested in survival of any former Cubans, as well as the opportunity to see if there was anything salvageable in Florida. --BrianD 04:59, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

I made the map, and based on the Cuba page added the dots to show that Cuba is the major (only?) economic force in the area. The Cuba page specifically says it has not created any actual colonies (yet). Benkarnell 20:54, October 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't see why Cuba wouldn't want to explore U.S. territory and expand at the same time. A good question to ask is are there any locals, or descendants, of locals left, and what would Cuba do with them (and vice versa)?--BrianD 21:01, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

World Population
I think the total world population for this timeline is way to low. Even in the worst situation I found that the population must be higher. Africa alone has a higher population then the world in this timeline. Assuming only one sixth of the people in Asia survive (which is unrealisticly low) that would give us about 500 million people. Add on South America (about 300 Million) and we have 800 million. If this is true then there would be no one left in North America, Africa, Europe or Oceania.

Obviously that's not the situation. I'm not sure what the total world population would be, but I think it would have to be more than 2 Billion. Ether way wee need to change what we have now.--ShutUpNavi 19:16, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

U agree on 2 billion--Owen83 19:10, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

You have to remember that India was spared nuclear strikes. India's population as of 1983 was 730 million. 800million survivors would mean only 70 million survived outside India.--Oerwinde 08:08, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Even in India, people would die due to the nuclear fallout from the strikes on China MC Prank 16:54, September 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I figured the Himalayas would keep most of the fallout out of India. Most of it would get blown onto Vietnam and Cambodia. Even if some of it does hit india, I don't see more than 200 million dying in india, which would still lead 5/8 of the world population in India. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Indian empire anyone?--Oerwinde 18:35, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The fallout depends on the size of the bombs that struck. There would be effects on India, but unless there were direct hits, I'll bet that most Indians didn't get any more radiation than a chest x-ray, if that. Louisiannan 22:54, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Checking some maps of wind patterns in the pacific, it seems that during the colder times of the year, the coastal winds around china would blow down towards indonesia, carrying the fallout more towards there and the phillipines, during warmer times of year it would blow northern, carrying it more towards Korea and Japan.--Oerwinde 08:14, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Another reduction of populations would be due to the possible failure of the Monsoons(due to the climate chaos after the nuclear summer)and the following famines, small scale battles for food resources and disease that would happen due to the collapse of the medical systems in India. this could kill tens of millions possibly?--Smoggy80 16:34, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Its still not enough to explain the magnitude of deaths. 800 million is just not a realistic number. In 1983, India and Africa, two regions that were relatively untouched, had a combined population of around 1.2 billion. Modern day is over 2 billion. If you take into account South America's stated population of 350 million, and don't count any population outside of only India and Africa, it means nearly 1.5 billion people die in Africa and India alone. Once the rest of the world is taken into account, that number jumps a bit more. 800 million is not a realistic population number. Considering the damage done, and comparing to OTL population of over 6 billion, I think around 2 billion is a fair number. That would put 3/4 of the world population in India, Africa, and South America, which seems about right to me.--Oerwinde 18:10, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Alright here's my view on what the world population would be.

Europe-Likely suffered the worse as it saw a large amount of Nukes used over a small amount of space. Many small nations like Holland and Belgium have been almost completely wiped off the map. Even "Well off" countries like the Celtic Alliance and the Nordic Nations suffered millions of deaths. Also take into account that there might have been large scale immigration from here. I am not an expert on climate, but given how northern the European countries are any change in climate could be devastating. A total European population of only 60 million seems likely.

North America-The US, Cuba, and Canada are gone dropping the continental population by over 300 million. Still Central America and the Caribbean would retain most of there population leaving the continent at around 200 million people.
 * My only problem with this is that Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean (minus Cuba) don't equal even 200 million today. I realize that you are only listing estimates, but considering the climate changes and refugee problem, there populations should have shrunk (at least for  since they are going to have a lot of American refugees).  Plus places like  have been going through and on going civil that would no doubt effect their population.  Mitro 22:15, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

South America-Likely handled the war the best, the population would be around OLT’s 300 million.

Africa-the situation would have been horrible here, but then again it’s not much better OTL. Given increased warfare and lack of foreign aid I can see most African countries loosing around 1 to 3 million people each. Add in decreased birth rates and Africa has about 900 million people left.

Asia-Over half of China is gone, as well as parts of Japan. Still the Indian sub-continent would retain most of its population, even in the event of political collapse, wars, and climate change. Southeast Asia's would drop by a few million thanks to damage spilling over from China. The Middle East and Central Asia remain big question marks as we can’t seem to figure out if they blew up, collapsed, were taken over, or are perfectly fine. Add in the variables and a population would be somewhat over 2 billion.

Oceania-Even if the population increased it would still be too small to really count.

So this would give us a total world population of (and this is only a very rough estimate) closer to three and a half Billion.--ShutUpNavi 13:46, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

The total for the entire north of the former country of England, now the Kingdoms of Cleveland and Northumbria are only - Cleveland 198,000 and Northumbria 29,000 making a total of 227,000 down from pre-dd population of 3,500,000(ish) i would guess that the total population of the former England would roughly be 4 million (down from 55 million pre-DD)--Smoggy80 18:38, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Korea
According to the nukes map Korea was not nuked at all! I know the map isn't supposed to be 100% accurate, but I'm just asking whether there was a reason for this, or just an oversight. If the latter we have to figure it out, if the former... we still have to figure it out. --DarthEinstein 02:27, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. I totally agree with you on that Darth. There should be a nation in this impact-free zone. Either it be that Korean gov't in exile on Jeju-do or a (reluctant) union of North and South Korea done for survival's sake rather than anything else. The Federation/Republic of Korea. --Yankovic270 00:09, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably it would be best to track the history step by step. Both China and the US were out of commission quite quickly, so just after Doomsday would seem the perfect opportunity for either the North or the South to launch an all-out attack on the other side.  Benkarnell 21:45, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Stalled Proposals
The proposal category is starting to get very crowded. Though I'm not asking people to stop creating new proposals, if you do get the opportunity please try to complete any unfinished proposals you may have and nominate them for graduation. If you don't think you can continue working on any of your old proposals then please say so and maybe another editor can pick up the slack and finish it. Hopefully we can shrink both the proposal category and this talk page. Mitro 16:55, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

African Expedition Force
This is an idea that I've had for some time. I had the idea of a group of Masree, Greeks, and Libyans to go through the heart of Africa, to remake contact with nations who haven't seen foreigners since 1983. I was thinking they might start in southern-Egypt and work their way all the way to Cape Town. As for the route, they could go straight down, or around maybe going west to Algeria, Pais del Oro, skirt around the Sahara, down to Kinshasa-Brazazaville, and so forth to Cape Town, going into the east African coast, to Somalia (how friendly would it be?) and right back to Alexandria. What do you guys think? Mr.Xeight 00:43, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * A perilous journey, but one that's definitely overdue! Probably most of Africa has kept in touch with foreigners (people from nearby regions), but not with the international community that has formed.  This sounds like a job for the Greek, Libyan and (What's Masree, please?) branches of the WCRB, which could provide funds and technology from a wider area than the individual governments.  Benkarnell 22:01, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Return
I'm back from a long time away. Whaddidimiss? Benkarnell 13:13, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Welcome back. We got a lot of new faces, a lot of new articles and the war in Saguenay is still going on. Mitro 15:28, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, um, that was premature. I'll be out of town and away from my computer for a week... carry on, then.  Benkarnell 11:31, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Happy Doomsday
26 years ago a nuclear war was averted by the actions of one man. I plan to toast Colonel Stanislav Petrov at 6 pm Central time and I hope you all will join me. Many of us are alive today because of him, plus we got a great POD out of it! Mitro 16:31, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Cheers at 1 hour and 14 minutes late! Mr.Xeight 00:14, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

WCRB Update
There has been a large number of new contributors as of late, so if there is a "command post" you want to claim please do so and I will add it. If you have no idea what I am talking about, see the bottom of this page or the bottom of the article. Mitro 22:09, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Location of Famous People on Doomsday
I have been reading through newspaper articles as part of the ongoing research I am doing and came across information concerning the whereabouts of certain historical figures on Doomsday and wanted to pass it along to everyone. Since I could not tell which section among the discussion pages was appropriate for such info, I hope it is okay in listing it here. I discovered neither President Ronald Reagan nor Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger were in Washington DC during the time Doomsday would have occurred. Apparently, President Reagan flew to NYC on September 25, 1983, staying overnight at the Waldorf Astoria. The next morning he gave a speech before the UN General Assembly, which addressed of all things US proposals to reduce the number of medium range nuclear missiles in Europe, before flying home the same day. As for Secretary Weinberger, he apparently had flown to China to discuss forging a new military relationship between the US and China. He arrived in Tokyo on September 24, moving on to Peking the next day. The articles I was reading also said Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and Moroccan King Hassan II were both in NYC and met with Reagan. Prince Sihanouk of Cambodia was also in NYC as well. I could see this being a possible problem with the original intro. I would imagine there would be contingencies to evacuate the president in such a situation, probably by emergency helicopter to the airport so he could board Air Force One. But if I understand correctly, he would have to be flown to where NECAP was stationed. Since I don’t know where it was, unless someone else knows, I can only wonder if there might be enough time to this. As to Weinberger being absent, I do not know if it would have much of an impact. As a final afterthought, if anyone does revise the pre-Doomsday section in the future, they may want to add something about the USSR shooting a South Korean passenger plane on September 1, 1983. It was a significant incident at the time and did ratchet up the East-West tensions. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 02:03, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you provide links to some of these articles? I would be interested in reading them and referencing them in articles.  Mitro 02:07, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

I will see what I can do. I located the articles through an online fee for service newspaper database system called ProQuest. Our library allows any local resident with a library card to access for free the Washington Post and NY Times online. I will see if I can post links you can access. If I can, where should I post them? In the off chance the links do not work, I also have PDFs of the articles that can be emailed. --Fxgentleman 03:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Just put the links here. Mitro 13:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

I posted the weblinks in question earlier, but have since removed them because for some reason they no longer function. I had tested them and they were okay, but when I just checked again they were all non-functional. So short of sending the articles by PDF, I am afraid I can't help you. By the way, when I was assembling the links earlier, I ran across another piece of information on a famous person I had not seen previously. Apparently British PM Margaret Thatcher had flown to Ottawa, Canada on Doomsday eve and as such would not have been in London. --Fxgentleman 02:55, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for this! If we do have to change the Reagan info, we'll be tinkering with some of the oldest material in the timeline!  I don't see that as a huge deal, though, because even as it is Reagan's only significant act in the TL is dying.  If he does it earlier, so be it.  GHW Bush plays a much larger role, but you don't mention him being away from Washington DC, which is what the timeline assumes.
 * Thatcher in Canada could have much more wide-ranging implications. Ottowa was a target, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had time to get out.  I wonder if she might end up in one of the two versions of Canada (one on the Atlantic, the other out in Alberta)... or someplace else entirely.  (Hands off, Bob, there's no way we're sending her to Africa! :-P
 * I agree that she would likely be able to get out in time, being the UK's PM. I doubt she would go north, as there isn't much there. That could be a plus, though, because there wouldn't be any bombs going off there. Going north would lead her to lawless regions anyway. She could try for the east, which will be chaotic as well, with Ottawa, Quebec and Montreal all being hit. But she might reach the Canadian Remainder Provinces still. Or perhaps south... but that doesn't make sense, because she'll know that the US will be much harder hit than Canada. West is a possiblility too... she'd want to stay away from Toronto, and might reach the Superior-controlled coastline of the Great Lakes. So it seems to be a choice between the Canadian Remainder Provinces or Superior, or heading off into the north. Sorry if I seem indecisive, but I'm finding it hard to put myself into the mind of a head of state in a foreign country during a nuclear holocaust. --DarthEinstein 00:06, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way I integrated her into my history of the new Canadian Prime Minister on this page. --DarthEinstein 20:39, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think anything has been written on Hassan II, I. Gandhi, Secy. Weinberger, or Sihanouk yet, but if any of them survive in the places they're stuck in, we could have interesting stories.
 * And thanks for the bit on the South Korean plane. It definitely adds context and should be added to the intro.  Benkarnell 22:11, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Glad the information can be of some help. I have been pouring through news articles of the August-September 1983 time period in regards to my the stuff I am writing on the Middle East and thought it might help. I know recently someone raised the question as to what might have happened to Liberia. I noted that Samuel Doe, who headed the nation at the time, was also in NYC on Doomsday. You figure these things would have some type of effect on certain places, going leaderless all of sudden. I know it plays into what I am writing on Jordan since King Hussein was in Asia at the time and would have survived and most likely gotten home to help rally his crippled nation. By the way, the evening of September 25 was also the night of the Emmy Awards in LA, so alot of celebs would have been there and perished. --Fxgentleman 23:53, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Leave of absence
Due to a family emergency I will be away for an indefinate period of time. I might drop in to see what is going on, but participation will be low. I'll try to return as soon as I can. Mitro 21:33, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankfully the emergency was able to resolve itself and I can return to my regular level of editing, though my weekend was shot to shit. Mitro 13:57, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Leave of Absence

 * I had planned to make a significant to many of my proposals and pet projects on this forum during this week. However, my grandfather passed this morning, and I have decided to put my contributions to this forum on hiatus until the situation within the family calms down. Lahbas 21:52, October 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * I’m sorry to hear that man. I don't think anyone can blame you for not being here. Either way you have my condolences, and I hope you make it through the next few days alright.--ShutUpNavi 00:54, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that as well. We Greeks say "Zoe sa sas" which abstractly would transate to remember their life. Though it doesn't help much, a great many people here can sympathize with you, myself included. Mr.Xeight 20:53, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, I am back. I'll start a blitz tommorow, hopefully. Right now, Thunder Bay is my target. Lahbas 21:58, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian Earthquake
did you guys here about the earthquake in indonesia last week? theres info on the tsunami in samoa but not the indonesian earthquake.--HAD 11:19, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know who wrote the blurb on the Samoa tsunami, but whoever it was finally motivated me to flesh out Samoa's history and government, so thank you! The tsunami in Indonesia was on the same day as the one in Samoa, and it was a good deal worse.  With the lack of infrastructure, Aceh and the I.I.I.L. are still recovering from the tsunami of 5 years ago.  The wave last week could have potentially major consequences in both countries.  The I.I.I.L. just put a new constitution into effect this year, and its democracy, such as it is, is still very fragile.

Benkarnell 18:08, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

i don't think a tsunami hit the Indonesia. just a really bad earthquake. this could have bad consequences for the region, although the CANZ would probaly send aid.--HAD 09:36, October 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right. I was away in the woods for a week and cut off from news, so forgive me. Finally reading some news articles on the quake, it actually was centered near Padang, which is exactly on the demarcation line between Acehnese and Indonesian controlled Sumatra *there*.  So we might actually have touching stories of cooperation between the enemy countries.  This was prefigured by this year's constitution, which does not mention the laim to Acehnese-occupied Sumatra. Amid all the crises in the world, maybe Aceh and Indonesia are coming closer to reaching an acord. Benkarnell 14:04, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Categories for images
We've done a fairly good job of putting maps and flags into subcategories of Category:1983: Doomsday: putting htem all in the category makes it easier to see the scope of the TL visually, and allows them to be sampled in other pages more easily. But there's no place to put the rapidly growing collection of photos (not including portraits, which go in the People category). What would you say to putting them into Category:Media (1983: Doomsday)? Photos are media, after all. Benkarnell 22:03, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

Election time
As you may know, in TTL there was an election in Canada two days ago. I've already figured out who's winning, but I'm wondering how long it would take for votes to be counted? Especially due to the large size of the two northern provinces. Should the results be announced now, or in a week, or sometime else? --DarthEinstein 18:32, October 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably methods for counting aren't as advanced as we use *here*. Ballot boxes also need to be collected from remote areas and outposts only partially under Government control.  A week should do it.  Benkarnell 18:35, October 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * If they have a phone system, it shouldn't be too different than what we have now. We still use paper ballots and count by hand (worked the election a few years ago). Then election officials report by telephone from each voting station. Unless the phone system hasn't been re-established by 2009 I don't see it taking more than 1-2 days.--Oerwinde 18:50, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

I suppose I'll post the results today then. --DarthEinstein 19:46, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Hello, introducing myself
I also am following the guidelines re: introducing yourself. I'm BrianD, I'm from Kentucky and if this timeline had actually happened I would have been vaporized by one of the nukes hitting my hometown. This entire timeline is amazing, and I've followed it pretty closely for months. Following sports is a hobby of mine, and the role of sport in international politics and affairs has always interested me. I've seen a few references to sports in the various articles - hockey leagues in Canada and Victoria, the World Cup in the Celtic Alliance - and posted an idea I had regarding qualification for World Cup 2010 in this timeline (I wish I had posted it a few months earlier, as qualification for the real World Cup is coming to a close). My thoughts are regarding sports that, now that the various nations have recovered from Doomsday and established themselves, that there is momentum towards reestablishing major international events like the World Cup and the Olympic Games and (on a lesser level) events like Tri-Nations rugby. I assume FIFA already has been reestablished, and that someone - the LoN, perhaps the people who run FIFA itself - will soon reestablish the IOC.

On a national level, I'll also assume that if Cleveland has a three-tiered soccer league, then Celtic Alliance, Alpine, Nordic Union and probably Prussia have professional leagues as well (and that the South American and Mexican leagues are going strong). For Australia, given how quickly the A-League has become popular there in the real world, I'll guess there's some kind of equivalent in the DD world (along with ANZC's rugby and footy leagues). I don't have many ideas for the former U.S., save that any organized sports in the former U.S. so far has been played at the youth and amateur levels; people are just now beginning to consider professional sports as a viable option. Reestablishing the NFL, MLB, etc. and NCAA Division I college sports would be decades away; you'll first see something like the Pacific Baseball League and Victorian Hockey League then, perhaps in a decade or two, regional leagues.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I welcome your feedback. Thanks for the opportunity to read this timeline, and to contribute.--BrianD 03:16, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Welcome. I look forward to working with you.  Mitro 14:50, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * The former American Samoa created the American Football League in 1991 for diehard enthusiasts of our barbaric version of the international pastime. It's become quite popular over the years, especially in the ANZC, and I wouldn't be surprised if some Pacific coast cities have teams as well.  Despite frequent requests, the AFL is still HQed in Pago Pago.  Benkarnell 22:09, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * More popular than footy and rugby? Interesting (now I'm wondering how Doomsday affected rugby and Australian rules football - the two most popular sports in Australia - and how American football and soccer have impacted the sports scene in ANZC). How many franchises are in this league, and where are they located? --BrianD 23:48, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, no no no no no, not more popular than the regular sports. I just meant that it's quite popular considering it was started in Samoa, of all places.  The AFA is _the_ American Football organization for the Pacific.  Probably it spread first among US immigrants, and then among [www.eteamz.com/nz-american-football/ the relatively few Ausso-Kiwis] who are American football fans.  Benkarnell 02:11, October 10, 2009 (UTC)