Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Algorithms
Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 4]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 5]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 5]

Abbasid Invasion  of Cyprus

 * 1420
 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate
 * Result: 16
 * Population: 7 (3.5 million)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * War exhaustion: -3
 * Kingdom of Cyprus
 * Result: 10.1
 * Population: 0.1 (50,000)
 * Motive: 7 (existential religious)
 * Government: 5 (elective monarchy)
 * War exhaustion: -2
 * Siege of Framagustra
 * Abbasids
 * Result: 4
 * Navy: 3 (100 ships)
 * Location: 4 (major city by sea)
 * Attrition: -3 (enemy coast)
 * Blunder:
 * Cyprus
 * Result: 3.5
 * Navy: 0.06 (2 ships)
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Blunder:
 * Seige of Nicosia
 * Abbasids
 * Result: 14.09
 * Military: 6.09 (20,000)
 * Location: 8 (seige to capital)
 * Blunder:
 * Cyprus
 * Result: 13.8
 * Military: 1.8 (6,000)
 * Location: 12 (seige to capital)
 * Blunder:
 * Final result
 * Cyprus: 9.1 (casualties: 200)
 * Abbasids: 15 (casualties: 350 troops, 6 ships)
 * Result: Abbasids win 164%, taking both cities but not able to annex Cyprus

​Discussion
-You didn't add Cypriot defense and/or stats -Da Kaiser (talk) 02:40, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Nor the naval force of the Hospitallers, Naxos, the Papal materiel aid etc. Callumthered (talk) 03:54, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I believe Famagusta is currently a Genoese property, but I'm not entirely certain. 05:56, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

This algorithm is so wrong. The population of Cyprus is 50k in the algorithm, and I'm going to assume it is a Non-Feudal State. This means it can raise a maximum of 1k troops.

So please explain to me how Cyprus is sending 5k to defend Constantinople and still has 6k left to defend themselves

I was under the assumption that I had a population of 75,000. And I took Fatmagusta from Genoa in the War of 1404. -Da Kaiser (talk) 14:22, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I personally dont have a clue how much your population is. The algo said 50k so I assumed maybe it is 50k. Anyways, I think you might win this if your allies that Callum mentioned help out.

Does the algo need to be fixed or not? cause Cyprus seems to have surrendered -Nate

In case it isn't clear, the hospitallers, Naxos, and Papacy are all fighting the Ottomans, not protecting Cyprus, although the Ottoman's 60 ships are not in the algo either -Nate

King Janus despaired, however Prince James may not agree. Also I'm fighting the Ottomans in a different war with my navy which is why the Abbasids made it to Cyprus. If my fleet was there even without my army, I could have won. My only real allies are Aragon and Rome. -Da Kaiser (talk) 03:38, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Gurkani Conquest of Gazaria [1420]

 * 1420
 * Pre-War Stage
 * The Gurkani Sultanate = +105
 * Population = +104 [Gurkani Population ~ 52,000,000]
 * War Exhaustion = -3
 * Casus Belli = +1 [No Connection]
 * Government = +3 [Iqta]
 * Republic of Genoa = +4.5
 * Population = +0.5 [Genovese Population ~ 250,000]
 * War Exhaustion = -0
 * Casus Belli = +2 [Non-Existential Threat/Defending Colony]
 * Government = +2 [Merchant Republic]
 * Siege of Theodoro
 * ​The Gurkani Sultanate = +43
 * ​Army/Naval Size = +45 [Gurkani Army ~ 150,000]
 * Location = +4 [Sieging Major City]
 * Great General = +0
 * Blunder = /
 * Attrition = -6 [Mountains]
 * Republic of Genoa = +4.8
 * ​Army/Naval Size = +0.3 [Genovese Army ~ 1000]
 * Location = +12 [Very Well Fortified City]
 * Great General = +0
 * Blunder =/
 * Attrition = +0
 * Casualities
 * ​Gurkani: /
 * Genoa: /
 * Final Score
 * ​Gurkani: /
 * Genoa: /
 * Result

Bruneian War/Bruneian Revolution(1421)

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: 27.3
 * Population: 10.15 million (Total Empire Population); 7,105,252 (Core Empire Population) = + 20.3
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Beli: +2 (Crushing Rebellion)
 * Government: +7 (Theocracy)
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: 12.42
 * Population: 710,525 (Total Population) = + 1.42
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Beli: 2 + 6 = 8 (Patriotic Rebellion/Survival)
 * Government: +3 (Iq'ta)

Java Sea Front

 * 1421
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of the Java Sea
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: -2.4
 * Army/Navy Size: 426 ships (Total Empire); 298 ships (Core Empire); 80 ships (deployed, regular Majapahit); 5 ships (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = + 2.5
 * Location: 0
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: -4.1
 * Army/Navy Size: 30 ships (Total) = +0.9
 * Location: 0
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -5

Borneo Front

 * 1421
 * Battle Stage
 * Fall of Kota Batu
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: +20 (PLACEHOLDER)
 * Army/Navy Size: 203,007 (Total Empire); 142,105 (Core Empire); 45,000 (40,000 deployed, 5,000 reserve, regular Majapahit); 10,000 (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = +15
 * Location: +8
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: +15.8 (PLACEHOLDER)
 * Army/Navy Size: 19,211 (Total) = +5.7
 * Location: +12
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2


 * Final Stage:
 * Majapihut
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 31.3 (casualties: 7,000 troops, 5 ships)
 * Brunei
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 5.5 (casualties: 16,000 troops, 10 ships)
 * Overall Result: 400% for Majapihut

Discussion
As previously mentioned, these are all placeholder results until a moderator arrives to fix them. Oh and the lack of attrition in Kota Batu is due to the location near the Brunei River, so.........I am unsure if that accounts as coastal attrition or not. I am also unsure about Casus Beli, regarding the Majapahit Empire and the Brunei Sultanate. Any errors? Tell me in here or chat. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:08, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Could another 6 be added to my Causus Belli? I would say this would count as a patriotic revolt; perhaps the title "Bruneian War for Independence" is more fitting. -- Orange (→My wall!←) 18:06, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The reason it's a patriotic rebellion is because at the current era, Brunei is one of your vassals; this was a plan to gain independence. -- Orange (→My wall!←) 18:15, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

And you are still dead already. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 09:25, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

The Greek Crusade

 * 1421
 * Pre-War stage
 * Crusaders
 * Result: 19.28
 * Population: 3.64 million (Denmark: 800,000, Norway: 600,000, Ragusa: 500,000, Genoa: 100,000, Papacy: 1.5 million, Rhodes: 70,000, Thringen: 40,000, Naxos: 30,000) = 7.28
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Ottoman Empire
 * Result: 18
 * Population: 6 million = 12
 * Motive: 3 (non-existential historic rival)
 * Government: 3 (Sultanate)
 * Battle of Geleta
 * Crusaders
 * Result: 19.04 + blunder
 * Military: 46,500 (Demnark: 1,000, Norway: 1,000, Thringen: 500, all others: 15,600) = 13.95
 * Note: currently 46% of total military. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
 * Navy: 153 ships = 4.58
 * Note: currently 100% of total navy. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Attrition: -3 (coast)
 * Blunder:
 * Ottomans
 * Result: 28.06 + blunder
 * Military: 18 (60,000)
 * Note: For the record, the Ottoman turn post is actually sending 100,000
 * Navy: 7.56 (252 ships)
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Blunder:
 * Final stage
 * Ottomans:17 (casualties: __)
 * Crusaders: 12.2 (casualties: __)
 * Final result: Ottomans win 138%

Discussion
I have a great many issues with this algo but am not currently able to state them all at this time. I will do so shortly, hopefully tonight. I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions here.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:56, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, as I was saying earlier, there are some issues here that I think need to be addressed: That should be it. I await objections.
 * While my first objection was going to be the number of ships the Ottomans possessed, I now see that they have had a naval concentration for the last decade, so I recant that. However, that does bring into focus the issue of why they have such a large army alongside it. If they are a naval concentration and previous mods have said that 110,000 troops is the most the Ottomans could raise under an army concentration, I am skeptical they can maintain a large fleet and army at the same time.
 * Secondly, why is the Ottoman army counted in this algo? This battle takes place in Constantinople/Istanbul, and as Bozi himself said, the Ottoman army is at the Balkan border, all 110,000 or so of it. Not withstanding the previous issue of size, it should be clear that the army isn't where the fighting is.
 * And if someone were to say "well, it counts the entire military of the Ottomans" then I ask why the entire military of the Crusaders is not counted as well? I doubt this will be an actual objection, but it merits a response all the same.
 * I am skeptical of the size of the Crusader's forces regardless of whether they are all counted or not. The current Papal navy is around thirty ships, yet the entire coalition is given a value of 32. This coalition, I might add, includes the Mediterranean nations of Ragusa and Genoa, both of which are at the height of their power and have long naval traditions. And those are just two nations of the nations involved. While I understand that the entire navy of every nation will not necessarily be involved, only 32 ships? Really?
 * The population of the Papal States is definitely not correct. Italy in total has a population of 14 million, and the Papal States owns most of the center, including major cities like Rome, Ancona, and Bologna. Definitely more than the mere 80,000 I am presented with.
 * I believe the Teutonic Order needs to be counted in the algo as well, as I remember Eip saying he would support the crusade. If he said otherwise to someone else, please inform me.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC) Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:34, August 7, 2016 (UTC) "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * The Ottomans have more ability to support troops than the crusaders because it is the one being invaded. That's why we have a Holy War penalty in the first place. It's not reasonable to send most of your military across Europe just to attack Muslims, but it is reasonable to deploy military which is already there due to the Siege of Constantinople. In fact, if Bozi was not navy concnetration he could send much more military, about 130,000. So 100K is actually reasonable. If you don't believe me, check out the OTL Seige of Constantinople, the Ottoman military was usually around 100,000-120,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
 * I will try to fix the population and troop numbers for the Crusaders, but I don't have information for all of them. Oct has claimed that he has a navy of 3,000 ships, which I find very hard to believe without a source.
 * Keep in mind though, that battle occured when the Ottomans didn't have a fleet of 252 or more ships. As per the concentration system, if one is strong the other must be weaker. Since the Ottomans are naval and have been for more than a decade now, the army must be weaker as a result, otherwise the system is broken. Scraw agrees with me on this. And of course, that is dodging the location issue, which we have currently tabled.
 * Sky says that he has a total fleet of 144 ships, but he's only contributing a hundred. I don't think it would be unreasonable for Genoa and the rest of the coalition to create a fleet comparable to that of the Ottomans, if they chose to do so.

For the next round, please be sure to add the 4.5 million Milanese population, and our contributions o10k men and 50 ships. 03:44, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Also add the 40k men and 30 ships from Aragon please. —  T  I   M  (TSW • AH • MGW • Contribs ) 05:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Burgundian Invasion of Pomerania

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Burgundy (Attacking)
 * Result: 13.6
 * Population: 9.6
 * War Exhaustion: -2
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government: 3
 * Pomerania (Defending)
 * Result: 4.6
 * Population: 1.6
 * War Exhaustion: -4
 * Casus Belli: 4
 * Government: 3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Burg Stargard
 * Burgundy (Attacking)
 * Result: 10.5
 * Army/Navy Size: 9
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: 0
 * Pomerania (Defending)
 * Result: 1.3
 * Army/Navy Size: 1.8
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: 0
 * Outcome:
 * Naval Battle of Stettin
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 23.1 (+10% Naval Concentration: 25.41)
 * Navy Size: 120 ships = 3.6
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great Admiral: 20 (John de Luxembourg)
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: -3
 * Pomerania:
 * Result: 0.52 (+10% Naval Concentration: 0.572)
 * Navy size: 34 ships = 1.02
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great Admiral:
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: 0
 * Outcome:


 * Final Stage:
 * Pomerania
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Result:
 * Casualties: total
 * Burgundy
 * Cities Occupied: Burg Stagard
 * Result:
 * Casualties:
 * Final result:

Discussion
Promotion of John de Luxembourg to great admiral approved by MPmod. I am that guy (talk) 00:17, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Blunder done by Natemod. I am that guy (talk) 00:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I think Hussite rebels count too.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:18, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Invasion of Epirus

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
 * Result: 8.06
 * Population: +0.06
 * War Exhaustion: +0
 * Casus Belli: +5
 * Government: +3
 * Epirus (Defending)
 * Result: 6.4
 * Population: +0.4
 * War Exhaustion: +0
 * Casus Belli: +3 (Existential threat to land not historically connected to defenders)
 * Government: +3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Arta
 * Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size: +0.12 (400)
 * Location: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition: +0
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size: +0.09 (300)
 * Location: +4
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition: +0
 * Final Stage:
 * Duchy of Naxos
 * Result:
 * Epirus
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion
NathanialPrice (talk) 01:42, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Bahmanid Conquest of Khandesh [1421]
Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Khandesh Sultanate


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids
 * Result: +37
 * Population: +34 [Bahmanid Population ~16 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -1
 * Casus Belli: +3 [Attacking Historical Enemy]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Khandesh
 * Result: +11
 * Population: +3 [Khandesh Population ~1.5 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +5 [Existential against Historical Enemy]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Asirgarh
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +72.5
 * Army/Navy Size: +72 [Bahmanid Army= 170,000 men and 700 elephants]
 * Location: +4.5 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: -0
 * Khandesh (Defending)
 * Result: +26.38
 * Army/Navy Size: +24.38 [Khandesh Army= 11,250 men and 700 elephants]
 * Location: +6 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: -0
 * Casualties: (difference of 45.62)
 * Bahmanids: 11,220 men, and 46 elephants
 * Khandesh: 2,250 men and 140 elephants
 * Final Score:
 * Khandesh loses w/score of -34.62. Over 200% score difference.
 * Overall Result: Khandesh is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Castillian Reconquest of Morocco [1422]

 * Pre War Stage
 * Castile:17.6
 * Population:8.6
 * War Exhust:0
 * CB:+3
 * Government:+5
 * Berber Morocco: 13.8
 * Population:3.8
 * War Exhust:0
 * Cb:+3+2
 * Government:+5
 * Castile Marches on Fez
 * Castile: 16.5
 * Numbers: 45k men=12
 * Location:+8 (Assault on City)
 * Attrition: 0 (Battle Takes place in city)
 * Blunder:5
 * Morocco:15
 * Numbers:3
 * Location:+12
 * Blunder:0 (NOTE: Blunder was not actually done but i wanted to do this before i went to bed. If another mod really wants to do it or if someone else gets involved, than Blunder will need to be done)
 * Final Stage
 * Castile
 * 17.6+3.7=21.3
 * Morocco
 * 13.8-1.5=12.3-15 (Capital Occupied)=-2.7+3.7=1
 * Result
 * Castile takes Fez and Morocco collapses.

Are you sure you won't suffer attrition? The city of Fez is surrounded by the Atlas Mountains so I am not sure how you managed to skip over the Mountains. Your algo justifies it by saying "Battle takes place in city" which is quite amusing because for the battle to take place within the city, it would mean your army crossed over the mountains and toppled the city gates to enter the city... neither of which happened. So, as far as I see it, you should suffer -6 in Attrition

Current Map
1420



Changes to Current Map
I believe the mods had Bengal annex Odissa, Ava, and Arakan, as well as Delhi annex Gwalior, Gondwana, and Dhundhar. Gujrat is also now a vassal of Delhi.The Guardian of Forever (talk) 04:02, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The Ica-Nazca have been a Chimu vassal for a while, and been expanding north torwards the Chimu border while the Chimu had already expanded south torwards them for a ways, they should have a small border touching. - -Nova

Korea expands into Manchuria.

France annexed all of English mainland in 1417 (excluding the Channel Islands). NicDonalds  12:29, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Leaves of Absence
If you plan on leaving the wiki for a while and will not be able post in the game for a while, please leave a message here telling us for how long you will be leaving and whether or not you have someone else you would like to play as your nation.

I will be leaving today (thursday) and will return on sunday. It will be very nice if someone does my turns for me. - Scarlet Outlaw

AM will be posting as Milan for the next week, as I will be out of town without my laptop or phone. Thank you, Andreas! 22:39, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

I'll be on holiday for 4-5 days, so I'll leave control of Pskov with Thewolvesden for the time being. EDIT: Seems my laptop is breaking down, battery dead and one of the two hinges is destroyed. Unknown when it will be fixed. Supergamer1 (talk) 13:10, July 24, 2016 (UTC)

I have to break off my Pacific Northwest trip due to a bronchitis. I need to fly back to Vienna and I need people to post for me and the guys I promised to post for, Rex and Super. AM, the King of the Banat (talk) 06:45, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

I could do that Andy, just tell me what should i post on chat.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:36, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

I am dealing with some issues IRL and the Past few days have told me that the likelyhood of me being able to post untill at least monday will be hampered significantly.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:48, August 5, 2016 (UTC) I will be gone canping from August 7-August 13, if someone could post as Denmark that would be grest. -KawaiiKame.

General Discussion
I just noticed the Roman Empire's post for this year and it seems the player is ignoring what happened when I was the Roman Empire.Such as the fact that in growing fear of Papism we cut funding the Catholic ones when earlier the Romans were reconciliating with the Catholics. Weird. --The Epic Dragon (talk) 17:43, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Still possible to join?
Hi. I missed the start of the game due to injuries (wasn't able to use my PC because of it), so just wanted to know if it was still possible to join the game. Zamarak500 (talk) 02:57, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

It is still possible to join the game! It's never too lae. -KawaiiKame

New Reference Maps?
Can we get some more reference maps, specifically for south america and central america? -Nova

I fully agree on this proposal. Also, on the reference map of India, there seems to be more states than on the signup list for South Asia, and no sign of Delhi? Could we have a more labeled version of that?The Guardian of Forever (talk) 02:57, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, reference maps of Central and South America are dearly needed. Cour *talk* 23:32, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.
 * Benin
 * While I understand West Africa had a history of ship building, I find in highly unlikely that, at this point in time, your nation would allow its Land Based power to take a back seat to Naval based power. ~Edge
 * Burgandy
 * Same situation as above, Burgundy doesn't have really any reason to focus on its navy. I understand Flanders gives you acess to the sea but by the same vein, the bulk of your nation is land locked. ~Edge

Discussion
The reason I made burgundy navy focused is because it's set a new focus on its maritime economy by way of the low country possessions, already wealthy trade cities on their own. It's been expanding its merchant fleet these past few years, and when there's a large merchant fleet, a sizable navy is needed to maintain its merchants safety. Since the income from the low country territories is quite substantial, safeguarding the sources of that income would be a reasonable course of action, hence, naval focus. I am that guy (talk)

Ok I will accept that response. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I decided on the naval focus given that Benin's army is the largest in West Africa and the nation has no major enemies on its borders to contend with. Given that the Oba has the last say on all military affairs, he can easily define the needs of the nation's defenses now that Oyo (Benin's only real enemy) is gone. Benin has jungles on both sides, two weak kingdoms to its north, and nothing but water to its south. As the Oba knows of the wider world around Benin, and does not trust Mali with trade with Morocco and North Africa, using the sea route Benin discovered would have been the most realistic choice for the nation, securing the trade needs of the empire. The army is strong, but not needed for the foreseeable future. Focusing on the sea is the only rational choice for Benin at this time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:55, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain where you got those ship designs from? I looked online for historical West African ships and found nothing of that size.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:50, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

There is a Nigerian forum which pulled together the research on traditional West African ship designs here. I based the designs of the Benin vessels off of that information, as well as the information that states such as Mali and Benin had sailing vessels for trade along the Niger River, while Mali itself had ships not unlike those in North Africa and Iberia. Given Mali used the Niger for trade with the south, Benin would no doubt have routinely witnessed these vessels firsthand coming down the river, and learned from their designs and operation. Further, an excerpt from the Journal of African History states that African war canoes were rather massive at 80 ft in length and 7-8 ft wide and typically had sails for navigation. Also, they had to be deep to carry 100+ men, their food, equipment, sleeping mats, and weapons so as to prevent capsizing ("...sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats." –Journal of African History). Such vessels like these here have been built for ages in West Africa (the latter image showing a traditional shipbuilder), and were typically equal to are larger than vessels such as the caravel, which itself was typically about 40-50 ft long. These vessels here were actually built for deep-water seafearing and are rather large in size, and their designs have not deviated from those of the past. Though these modern designs use motors, in the past sails would have been present on them. Thus, it would not have been to difficult based on the knowledge possessed at the time to increase the vessels in terms of size and depth, as the knowledge was fairly common for the West African kingdoms of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:30, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw those designs on the actual website that you mentioned earlier, but the main question I have is where you are getting the size. You mention yourself that these vessels could manage 100 or so men, but I question the notion that you are able to build ships with five times that number or the motivation to do so. If you could provide some sort of proof in those issues that would be good.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:57, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Can you add the Chimu Empire, and give us concentration on Army Building? -Nova

I've switched to army since it will be easier to get it passed and less controversial. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:30, July 31, 2016 (UTC)

I've added Mogadishu with naval focus, can some mod approve this? - Fallacyman (talk)

I added the Majapahit with a naval focus. Any moderators to approve? Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:16, August 7, 2016 (UTC)