Alternative History talk:TSPTF

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There's a Problem
As we've no doubt seen, the AltHistory Wiki is currently a very toxic community. Users openly attack admins over games and petty squabbles while the weird internal politics somehow divide the TSPTF. There are two main reasons for this and I think both need to go. So much of the wiki's activity comes from map games and chat. We're barely an alternative history wiki. We're a chat room where people come to play text-based EUIV and argue about whatever map game is being played. Every once in a while, someone makes a new ACTUAL althistory and it's just ignored and never read. Administration is more interested in playing map games than actually working out the kinks to the wiki or helping users with their real alternative histories.

This is why I call for the removal of all map games from this wiki. This wiki is about seeing what happens after you change one or more things in history (a PoD). In map games, the PoD is basically "everything after this year is different for some reason." That is not alternative history. That's gaming. We are not a gaming wiki. I propose all map games be moved to another wiki and all current participants in the game be notified of such action. This wiki could be the Map Game Wiki or it could be another wiki that is officially associated with ours.

I also propose getting rid of chat for at least a few weeks. Imp suggested this and I'm simply expanding upon this idea. If map games are the cause of this toxicity, chat is the wiki's outlet. As it turns out, ridding the wiki of the cronies was only part of the problem. There are alternative chats through which users frequently communicate with each other. I'd suggest using those until we sort out whether or not chat should stay and go. If it does stay, something drastic needs to change. We have a kick button and a chat ban button. They both need to be used a LOT more when things go sour.

Will we lose traffic? You bet. This measure is basically bringing us back to the sleepy wiki we were before map games got so big. But here's the thing: it's traffic I don't really want on the wiki. The people we would be losing are toxic and they're the people who are only here for map games (and should be on our associated wiki). Lovely people, some of them, but the wiki is for alternative history, not some weird, gigantic, map-game-related squabble. You have friends? Get their contact info: Skype and Discord are a thing.

I've got some happier ideas, too, but I want to bounce this whole thing off the administration first before I call for an official vote or do anything else related wiki revamping.

Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 17:23, May 28, 2017 (UTC)


 * Completely in support. As an olive branch, PMIV will not be shut down but will be the last map game on this wiki for the forseeable future. Close down chat whenever you feel fit Crim. Wait it might have to be me. Now I know Scraw doesn't really have a problem with closing down chat, in his words it would mean less work for him. I definitely think it should be closed down, before we set up a discord link or whatever. Those who still wanna stick around for that probably wanna stick around the wiki for alternate history in general. You have my support. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:14, June 2, 2017 (UTC)

I personally enjoy them (albeit a bit much) but they are kind of my holdover while i wait to get off the ground here in my post grad years so i can actually start writing on my Timeline alot more. It does indeed keep me here. If i didnt work 50-60 hours a week id probably write on my timelines a bit more, but games like PMIV i do notice cause problems, but nothing that hasnt been mediated by some of the veteran users adopting the "okay whatever kid" stance on alot of stuff which i think is fine. If anything i think chat needs to be removed in favor of a fully fledged Discord server. (See Halo Wikia for the perfect example of how to implement a discord server).

Outside of that maybe we should actually offer some incentives again, in my opinion traffic while increasing but of less creative individuals is purely cause we havent really offered incentives to do anything. There are no contests anymore, there are no blog posts, its a whole host of stuff thats completely unrelated to map games. We need to bring back some livlihood to all corners of the wiki and map games i think keep a user base around enough to allow us to harness it and really bring some real life here. I want to see an active wiki, not a sleepy one. We just have to direct the energy and people in a more positive way towards creating new content or being active in our blogs or maybe taking notice of people who can make flags, coat of arms etc etc and appropriating their skills or having them be our go to people for picture creation content.

If anything we just need to steer the horse back in the right direction, not cut one of the stirrups.

I agree with the concern about the wiki, but I must respectfully disagree with the removal of map games, at least for now, as long as PMIV is running. Me personally, I don't like or hate map games, but it still has become a core to the wiki. Map Games is completely abandoned for the reason that using two wikies for practically the same community is not practical.

In my opinion, it's a drastic move that, like Feud says, is not the best course of action. Feud is right here, imo, and I'm one with his opinion.               Deadly State of Mind    Leader of the Knights of Scraw.  23:36, May 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * The fact that it's the core is the problem. We're the althistory wiki, not the map game wiki. The map game wiki is dead because most reputable people here saw it as a festering hive of idiots lacking regulation or structure or real association with our wiki (or, at the very least, just weren't interested.) That's our reputation as a community. Not a place of real alternative history. There are no incentives we can offer. None that we haven't tried. Incentives are attacking the symptoms, not the disease. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 09:35, June 2, 2017 (UTC)

I have no voting rights in this, but I argue in the negative based upon the conclusions rendered via the text based system of communicating and responding while we motivated the user base as to emphasis the meaning of our motivational speaking abilities to enhance our projections as to the rendered long term future of this means so as to achieve the best end result. Also, Pinochet was here. &#123;&#123;SUBST:GBSig&#125;&#125; (talk) 23:44, May 31, 2017 (UTC)

So somehow the platform is the cause of the toxicity. The fundamental issues with your proposal is that all your propose is taking the issues, and pushing them somewhere else. There is no solvency for your proposals. Thus I must oppose both. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL
 * Would you prefer they're deleted altogether and not moved/saved? Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 09:35, June 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * I would prefer you to come up with actual soultions since all you are doing is making noise about issues, but there is no solvency for these issues. You want to get rid of chat, but you also must realize that there is nothing different about discord that is going to fix the issue? Your entire proposal on that issue is just to move to another platform. That doesn't fix the issue. And Kicking and Banning people more often also won't fix the issue. I find it odd that two users who are infrequently on chat seem to know that shutting it down would fix it. Map games are not the cause of this wiki's toxicity. They haven't been in a long time. I know you haven't been active much, but since the cronies have been banned and PM3 has ended, the frequency of map game related drama has plummeted. Yes, it still happens, but you are never going to remove all of the toxicty from a community unless you just ban people you don't like. Do you know what causes far more drama on this wiki than map games? Politics. Are you going to propose banning all political discussion on the wiki? When I banned the N-word from chat, it caused more drama than the biggest feud in Pm4 ever did. Map Games are not the cause of drama, they are just scapegoats for people to blame for their own contributions to the toxicity. In fact, more recent drama (such as the one between Ace and UR) comes from users who don't play map games. So maybe we should be banning timelines? (I'm being sarcastic here.)


 * So instead of putting words in my mouth give me specifcs. What kinks have we overlooked or what users have reached out to help to have been ignored because of map games? Give me specific examples, names, times, everything. You are using extremely vague rhetoric to support already weak arguments. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I understand no voting rights but that's beside the point. If you don't want to do something don't. Many of the people supporting these proposals here obviously never go on chat or map games, so why does it matter to them? Yeah maybe map games can get a little bit odd but they are alternate history since they start at a point in time and stop in 2018 like a normal tl and they have attracted traffic before for tl's but most of all if you don't like them don't play them. The quality of tl's is not hurt by mapgames, the same argument applies with chat. Arguments from chat rarely spread over to the actual wiki itself, it exists as a seperate entitity which your under no obligation to go on and many don't.

I hear proposals to set up a discord link or something, then surely chat would still exist? Chat and map games are the more aggressive and heated parts of this wiki but if you don't like them leave them alone and they won't hurt you. More than enough people enjoy them and this wiki is not soley for the exclusive use for a couple of people who are happy to sit and write tl's alone in silence. We all know removing chat and map games at the least will drive down traffic signifcantly which is not a good thing for the quality of new tl's. Person67 (talk) 16:53, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually it would be exceedingly good things for TL quality. People would actually spend time on making their TLs noteworthy. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:58, June 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * Do you really think that people not playing map games is going to lead directely to them spending that time on TL's or people will just come here less often. People put as much time into tl's as they want, a lot of the most obvious ideas such as WWII and Civil War have been done enough that people are running out of creativity. You can't just blame map games for declining tl quality. They're basically two seperate things and currently the wiki does both of them. Changing that won't help. Person67 (talk) 17:03, June 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * That is the point. If people cannot think iof TLs, then perhaps them not coming here is not a bad thing at all. This is an alternate history wiki, not the map game wiki. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:07, June 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * As long as I have been a part of the alternate history wiki we have never said either write a TL or go away. Fine I haven't written a good TL yet and with my abismal writing skills I may never actuallly manage that, I don't think therefore I should just leave for map game wiki which is shite especially when I have no interested in post modern map games. This wiki can be whatever our community wants it to be. Person67 (talk) 17:13, June 2, 2017 (UTC)

We have a real problem but it is not the problem you think of. The real problem is a growth in bad new users which exceeds the number of new good users. Map games did not even bring some of these people here; they did in fact come to write trash. We have all seen the pages I speak of, poorly named, rife with spelling errors, nonlinear and nonsensical. Similar users play map games. Illiterate, ignorant, and gleefully so. This is the crop of new users. Maybe they came here for map games but they stayed because they found their brethren here.

Scrawland Scribblescratch 00:48, June 3, 2017 (UTC)

Why dont we require a certain amount of edits to play a map game?

user talk: Warrioroffreedom123 00:53, June 3, 2017 (UTC)warrioroffreedom123

Further comments. There is only one map game currently active on this wiki and it has been like that for quite some time. Yet the problem remains. Map games are not the problem here. The problem is that we are a small community and the low (nonexistent) threshhold for entry make this site an easy target for low energy trolls and vandals.

Scrawland Scribblescratch

So I promised some happier ideas, too. Here goes: Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 05:30, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * The 'demilitarization' of the TSPTF: This, I think, could help the wiki more than anything. Right now, we're kind of a police force (literally, our titles are named after police ranks.) And, to quote NWA, fuck the police. The primary job of constables and TSPTF members shouldn't be discipline and keeping map games in order. On the TSPTF main page, there are a whole lot of tasks that people are signed up for that I kinda rarely see people doing except for a few cases (in which case I thank you). But even then, that's not police work. I think the primary duties of a TSPTF member need to fall under one of two categories: maintenance and article assistance. Punishment and bans will come when they come. We all need to be doing our part to ensure the wiki's running well. That's making sure there aren't duplicates, deleting pages that need to be deleted, reverting vandalism, and the whole shebang. But a lot of that stuff can only be done by LTs. The constables can revert things and they're chat mods. Especially if we get rid of chat, there isn't much constables can do. As a history wiki, however, I think maintenance is only half of what the administration should be doing. Which brings me to my next point.
 * Putting an emphasis on history: As an alternative history site, a major function of the TSTPF needs to be ensuring accuracy in TLs and helping users - old and new. When I first joined, it was a bit more common for people to aid each other in TLs (generally through posting something on the talk page), but this has kinda fallen out of practice. I think if we made historical accuracy a major function of TSPTF members (especially constables), this wiki would see some great stuff.
 * Streamlining the TSPTF talk page: It's a mess, especially with about a year's worth of cronies and ace (and reaction memes - come on, guys) clogging the page with useless shit. We could organize it a bit better, which I'll be doing once I archive this page.

As a way to tackle chat, Feud (with some input from me) has created an Althist Discord to replace chat and all its problems. In a bid to make this an improvement over chat, the discord will be only semi-affiliated with this wiki. So although all the TSPTF roles will be accurately represented in the tier system, there will be no toleration of blowback from discord onto this wiki (as you will read on the welcome page created by yours truly) as there has been with chat.

If this is successful (which is does seem to be with our beta testers so far), this wiki replace chat and we may perhaps implement it in a way Halo Wiki has. However, this may not happen as discord may be deemed a priviledge and not a right (this is something that is still being discussed). We may choose to have it in such a way that only users who have effectively contributed be allowed the link onto the discord, although currently this is not the case.

The link shall be provided to users after they vote on the Featured TL page. :) Impishly yours, Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:13, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

So I still don't have an explanation of how moving platforms solves any of the issues we currently have with chat. All you guys are doing is scapegoating the platform and not providing a solution. I expected more. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I am just an ordinary user and I have seen these problems since I came around and I have only stayed because some of the great work that exists here, and the few kind creative users I have gotten to know here. I would suggest that along with moving chat and mapgames this website not just orient itself to be a "history" but a "writing' community. We should infrastrature on this website that helps us become better writers and for us to help each other.

I have a problem with current ASB system because often I have seen articles posted ASB without much explanation, now if a user wishes to create an ASB creative timeline that's fine but too often an idea has been branded ASB aganist the will of the writer. In this case if an idea has  a problem the community should reach out to improve said idea, rather than tear it down with a tag. While I personally dont like Chat, I think we need some page or system so that users talk to each other more about articles and writing skills.

Though someone reached out for me to be on Chat before, I tried going there and I was appaled by how people behaved to each other, though I tried to make some good conversations and to try to help people get along I just didn't want to spend my valuable time there.

I think we should introduce a writing workshop in order to do this. Mechanics, style and page layout really define timeline as much as the content, and if we are here to write about history more creatively we should work to better ourselves. This should focus on not "this is wrong, you're wrong' but in assistance of each other. Much of this too could only be accomplished by the attidude users and admins carry on this site. I was happy to see the suggestion of demilitarizing the "TSPTF", I hope in the future TSPTF members- all of them do behave better ethically- and not just go by the law because what they do here inspires everything else.

We should all be here because we want to be here, and we enjoy each's other company working together.

Have a nice day,

Stepintime

Navboxes
Apologies if this is not the right place to bring this up but have anyone else's NavBoxes been replaced by redirects at all? Just wondering if there's a quick fix I don't know about or perhaps there's a new template everything needs to be changed to. Many thanks for your time.

for instance

Yan Hoek (talk) 11:21, June 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * This is a problem caused by User:KaiserIgnore. He moved the Navbox template, originally named Template:Navbox, to Template:Reversal, apparently so that he could use the root Navbox template for his own timeline (Reversal). When, I presume, he realised that this is not the way things are done, the template was moved again, but not back to its original title of Template:Navbox, but to Template:NavBox. Because he left several redirects in the wake of these blunders, it is irreversible unless an admin steps in to rectify it. —  THE TIM TAM  IS MY   SPIRIT ANIMAL  (TSW • AH • MGW • Contribs ) 12:15, June 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Second WikiBuilder1147's report. Tried a reversal but it didn't work. Admins must steps in to rectify it --JorgeGG (talk) 16:52, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted all of Kaiser's edits to their original configurations. It may take a while before everything is back to normal (since the coding will need to reset for all pages). I've also banned Kaiser for his vandalism (whether intentional or not) and protected the template itself to prevent this from happening again.

Please let me know if I've missed anything. Terribly sorry for the annoyance. -- 19:47, June 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot!!!!! :D --JorgeGG (talk) 20:12, June 12, 2017 (UTC)

Discord
I would like to receive the rank I was elected to, Lieutenant, that Josh, Crim, and others received on the discord that Scrawland Scribblescratch has openly denied me.

If they didn't go through his stupid rules, then neither should I.

- UR 02:33, June 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * You do know that's not how it works, right? -- 02:46, June 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * No just every TSPTF member except myself is exempt from the test. Seems fair. -UR 05:37, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

Might as well ask this here: is the Discord an official part of the wiki? Personally I find it less useful than chat at the moment. It seems like the only thing Discord offers that Wikia doesn't is channels, which seem pointless to me anyway. And at the moment we're in this confusing limbo of using both forms of chat at the same time. So are we completely transitioning to Discord? Thanks, sorry if this isn't the right place for this. Hquvfrioyle Lilenofryn (talk) 03:12, June 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * No, it is not! -- 03:41, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

As above. The Discord is not required to do anything because of the Wiki or vice versa. Problems from Discord are not supposed to be brought here and bringing them here accomplishes nothing as it will have no effect on what happens inside the server. Autonomy.

06:30, June 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * UR, what "test" are you talking about? The rules have been laid out for all to see. I've been here for a decade now, and I can assure you that no user had been promoted by any other means. I certainly wasn't, Crimson and Josh certainly weren't, and neither will you. -- 06:42, June 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * Considering the last time i discussed this with scraw, bringing a discord problem here or screenshots etc etc is grounds for a ban be lucky there isnt a wiki ban and a discord ban over your head right now.


 * Is it grounds for a ban just for me or for everyone? Because it seems like I'm being held to a very different standard. - UR 18:39, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

Feud, while I do agree that Discord drama has no place here, I don't believe this is justification for a ban. Perhaps if this becomes a continuing trend than it may be necessary, but not from this one rant. -- 23:01, June 15, 2017 (UTC)

The golden rule of the discord is "What happens on Discord stays on Discord." This is due to the very obvious premise that eventually not all our users are users from our wikia. Ideally this is to attract more than just users from our wikia, and more just those who are interested in alternate history and history in General. The rule has its basis in this which is why the reasoning is so drastic. Sorry if it seems so overbearing but we have the rules for a reason same as here. I see no reason to not uphold the rules

Re: Please delete my accidentally uploaded image?
I accidentally uploaded a image. Can the mods please remove it from the wiki?

I would gladly help, but I'll have to know who you are and what file you want us to delete. SkyGreen24 16:05, June 16, 2017 (UTC)

Improving navbox
I was trying to do some work on our navbox and I noticed, it's awful.

The template is old, and honestly, we could do something simpler and yet still good, if not better, with another type of template like this

SupremeSensualSamrāṭSky 21:08, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

Not an admin but I like the one we currently use a lot more. Hquvfrioyle Lilenofryn (talk) 00:11, July 12, 2017 (UTC)


 * While I'm opposed to your recent actions regarding the template's protections, I see nothing wrong with starting a conversation. The biggest issue that should be addressed is how your proposed alterations will affect the hundreds of articles which use the current coding. I must insist that you refrain from any further alterations until this can be answered. -- 05:03, July 12, 2017 (UTC)

Nuclear Vacuum Appears To Have Deleted A Timeline For No Reason
I heard that this timeline (http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Dale_Earnhardt_Survives_the_2001_Daytona_500_Crash) was a really good NASCAR timeline so I went to see what it was all about, and apparently someone named Nuclear Vacuum deleted it. I'm wondering why as from what I know it was within the Wiki's rules and had a legitimate title that did not warrant deletion. Empireofbrentz (talk) 14:44, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

Oh, you guys have a reddit? https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistoryWiki/ that's some weird stuff for an althistory wiki.

Also, in that subreddit I found an archived version of the timeline mentioned before, so that's good. I'd still like to know why it was deleted though, as Dale_Earnhardt_Survives  appears to have been within guidelines for this wiki.


 * I removed the timeline in question because it had been marked for deletion for over a month by that point. I marked the timeline for deletion because it did not meet the standards of this site. The title was far too long (going against site norms) and all of the information was crammed into a single page (as opposed being spread out across several pages). The creator of this timeline had the option and time to address these concerns, but has not been active for months. After a month of being inactive, it was removed (as is the norm when dealing with articles marked for deletion).


 * If the original author (or anyone, for that matter) wishes to continue and expand the timeline (provided the aforementioned issues are addressed), I would be more than happy to revert the deletion.


 * As for the subreddit and archived site in question, please take both of them with a grain of salt. Both were established by trolls and banned users from here, and they are mostly uses to vent their frustrations (to put it mildly). Neither of them have any affiliation or support from this Wiki. -- 15:07, August 7, 2017 (UTC)


 * Alright. Thanks for the heads-up on those 2 other links. As a question, the original title was simply Dale Earnhardt Survives, right? And that would address the length of title issue, and also I think you just fueled those banned users and trolls to come back by deleting it as it appears one of them seems to be expressing their opinion pretty strongly on that subreddit. Why haven't you guys gotten rid of that subreddit yet if it's causing these sorts of issues?


 * Also, I don't think by the look of things that the DifferentHistory Wiki is used to vent the owners' frustrations and tbh I think you should see some of the work on there, it's quite impressive. Empireofbrentz (talk) 15:48, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

The full title chosen by the original user was Dale Earnhardt Survives the 2001 Daytona 500 Crash (which stretches to include two rows). The title was never altered during its lifetime. From the looks of things, the timeline was altered when "archived" on the other site (it looked very different when it was deleted).

The primary reason neither of those sites have been removed is because we have no control over them and they don't break the rules on Reddit or Wikia. There is very little we can do, so this is why we don't associate with them.

As for the archive site, it is operated by a user who nearly got banned globally for orchestrating a series of attacks on both users here and the site itself. They also appear to be the sole person responsible for resurrecting and archiving this timeline. I would highly suggest you stay clear of them. -- 16:56, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

Alright, will stay clear of them so I don't get in trouble here. It is impressive that they archived the original timeline and are expanding it though, That must be a lot of work. Empireofbrentz (talk) 17:27, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

We do not have a subreddit. That is not our subreddit.

Scrawland Scribblescratch 22:23, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

The Discord Problem
Alright,

So, I'm gonna say this straight off the bat, and people are gonna be like "oh this is just because we refuse to give you mod powers," but plenty of people will agree with me when I say this; the Discord is killing the wiki. New users can't socialize with anyone because nobody uses chat, the Discord isn't even official, its a toxic environment, and nobody talks to each other on it (the only thing I use Discord for is PMs and that's about it). Hell, this thing isn't even part of the wiki.

That's all I have to say about that. 22:15, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

United Republic, you've been gone from the wiki from what I know since a few weeks to a month ago, what's with the sudden return? Empireofbrentz (talk) 14:35, August 22, 2017 (UTC)

This is quear
I think you need to look in to this online troll site. They are foul mouthing the Wiki.

00:48, September 12, 2017 (UTC)