Talk:Moderator Page (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

'''ONCE AGAIN, EVERYTHING DISCUSSED HERE IS SECRET, MEANING NO COMPLAINTS. Moreover, you cannot contact any one moderator via their talk page, or anything. You will not like the result of violating that.'''

First things first!
OK guys welcome to our first official mod meeting! lol. Here you all may freely and calmly point out things that need our immediate attention. A few things I can think of right off the top of my head are: and so many more.... let us begin!AP (talk) 06:43, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Mayan Empire
 * The extremely large German colony in Antillia
 * The overzealousness of personal unions, most of which need to be broken by now
 * The lack of Indian attacks
 * The Incan Empire fiasco

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:32, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) what is this Incan empire fiasco?If you are referring to the part of the Aymarás breaking up, you should have came up with that earlier.
 * 2) I think that the German colony has expanded legitimously, when it comes to expansion rates, except for those times when he tried to expand 3000 sq km, but then, i made sure that the correct number was displayed on the map, But, he didn't annex the Iroquois.instead, he got a sizeable portion of their territory, and an outlet to the Lake Erie, according to the future 1585 map.
 * 3) It's not easy to break up a personal union.The only way to do it are by means of revolt, like OTL Portugal did in 1385 and 1640, but not every revolt is successful.
 * I don't think he's talking about rule breaking. We mean as in Indians need to attack this German colony the most desperately.
 * Also look at the proposed Ammendments for Talk Pages on PMII Talk Page.  Saamwiil, the Humble 12:29, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried, but i couldn't understand your point.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * We also need to clarify things. Like my colony is also supposed to be bordering Lake Erie but somehow the German colony is on its way to Michigan. We need to set up a colonial limit like at the Appalachians to prevent extreme expansion inland. Yeah, I propose the Huron Indians attacking and defeating the colony, taking control of the Canadian peninsula(their tribal land) and a very small part of western New York. But maybe not that much since its player loves to complain.
 * Aragon and Navarre need to break away and form Spain already. And we need to clarify Brandenburg's personal union with Austria. Austria was actually in personal union with Castille until their "last ruler died and was married to Bran.'s ruler." It actually never happened. People always find a way to evade the rules. Never mind on the Incan
 * AP (talk) 03:38, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, this thing is very chaotic (MP tries to form an peronal union with Castille, he leaves, Mawilda tries to form an personal union with Aragon and Austria, is rebuffed by everybody else.)but he said that the Austrian player left his nation to be controlled by whoever was the Emperor.And Spain in OTL basically formed with most of the Iberian peninsula on control of one nation.Aragon and Navarra only control less than one fourth of the Peninsula.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:35, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of of having more organised discussions, so that people don't have to repeat their argumetns over an over agains. Sample

XXXX's side/ For ZZZZZZ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

MMM'side/ Against ZZZZZ

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Anyways, I'll begin on and Indian attack for the German colonies. Also, I am starting a new surge of Kappelism by a guy in Switzerland called Marex. Tired of Venetian missionaries abusing him to convert he has a 'holy dream'. This Marexism shpuld be kinda like OTL Mormanism in beliefs. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:55, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

A surge of Kappelist sentiment should occur at the turn of the century. They should rebel or something. Also, it is a bit implausible that a lot of nations(Venice in Milan/Genoa, Saxony in Altmark) are converting the people back to Catholicism. Conquered peoples don't comply, especially when it comes to the Reformation.AP (talk) 06:32, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

1590 will start Marex's dream, in 1595 he will have a small following, in 1600 (HRE's break up) he has a fairly large following in mainly Switzerland (still a minority), and a few in other countried 1606 he is assassinated by a Catholic Missionary who views his Christianity as a threat to Catholism (he is indeed a branch of Kappelism). The clear successor is the scond in command, the marexist High Priest of Yahavi. After that I'm open to suggestion on what is to happen to the groop. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:22, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I think the Indian attacks are overkill. The Indians driving out the Germans from Canada was fine, but pushing further east(more than the Iroquois homelands) is implausible. The new Kappelianism thing seems fine, though.AP (talk) 04:55, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

They aren't going to win anything in OTL New York, but they can keep them out of Canada, which SS seems to be having a fit about, because expanding implausibly is his 'God given Right'. I would like you to look at the key word in my mod event, 'try'. Saamwiil, the Humble 13:10, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

C'mon, it's not like he's taken all of Quebec in a single year. I do agree he's rather landhungry, but pushing them out of Canada should be enough. If you don't feel comfortable with letting him stay in OTL US then have the tribes that pushed 'im out of Canada form a kingdom or something. Fed (talk) 02:53, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

That's all I was planning on doing, Canadian tribes can't push him out of New York, many have already died to keep him out of Canada. Also, it has been made clear that he is reading the mod page. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:42, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

You don't have the right to post mod events, Saammy. Not to mention the fact that you quit the game, and thus no longer have a right to push your agenda on us. Even LG told you flat out that you were wrong. So why do you have to insist to stick around? --Yank 18:15, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, what should Marex's last name be? Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Marex never was a first name.this should be his surname, if we really want to be generous.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:07, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

Players violating the explicitly stated rules
So I won't name names, but there have been a few times already where players have a) Read the discussions here b) metagamed as a result and c) Have contacted a mod on their page regarding the discussions. We need to come up with an appropriate consequence to deter any future violations from any player. Should we let them off with a warning or do we act?( which would reinforce our ideas immediately).AP (talk) 23:57, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

It happened?Well, what is your suggestion? (on a side not, we need more mods here.there's only me and you here, and Saam isn't a mod.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:21, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

You should have notified the other mods that this page was here you know. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:41, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I made an announcement on the talk page...AP (talk) 09:16, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Also Collie, I wanted to get the other mods' opinions before I did anything; you know, to avoid the annoying bias complaints.AP (talk) 09:19, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Johan Marex
How the mod events will go, I will make a page for what the Johanist believe:

1590
A man by the name of Johan Marex, a noble weary of Catholic Missions in Switzerland from Venice to try reconvert him, says that in his dream, he saw God, and he is to bring true Christianity to earth. By the year's end, most of his family has converted to the new branch.

1592
Johan Marex has had many private talks with his friends concerning this new faith and many convert, but a majority exclude him from many of society's pleasures. Marex begins writing 'the Book of Laws' which he says to be the words of Yahavi (the holy trinity). There are many sections advocating the act of the rich giving to the poor, some sections making it sound mandatory.

1595
The city of Zurich has a relatively large Marexist/Johanist population, however still a minority. The message is very popular amongst the poor for its avocation of compassion, and the mandatory giving of those who have much to those with nothing. Albeit, the wealthy and the Catholics develop a rich hate for him.

1596
Johan Marex has set up small bases around Switzerland, some Churches are ordered to be built to house. Many of the rich in Bern 'see the light', amongst them Adolf Bernman who becomes, who in exchange for the tile 'High Priest of Yahavi', has given all of his personal wealth to the church coffers boosting its wealth. Marex also makes himself a distinguished feature by making his public hatred for Venice more obvious, and says that the Swiss Cantons must remain fiercely independent.

1597
In his centre of operations, Bern, Marex has encouraged converts from all over Switzerland to move to Bern, so that he may have a strong base, and that the word of Yahavi may spread more quickly. Using Swiss mercenaries, Marex has killed many of Bern's rich Catholics, adding loads of money to the Church's coffers. Most Kappelist are left alone, but some of the more rich are publicly harassed. Catholics, almost defenceless move mostly to Zurich.

1599
Marex has had 3 attempts on his life and becomes very paranoid, some of the revelations are abstract, adding mysticism to the new branch. Many chapter are set up in Burgundy.

1600
Bern has become crowded by member of Johanism, making the city very unsanitary, causing many sicknesses, before the city can expand to fit the new population's needs. Lucerne also becomes a major centre for Johanist

1606
Johan Marex is assassinated by a Catholic priest while making a cermon in Venice, a move he knew was risky. He is suceeded by Adolf Bernman, the Priest of Yahavi.

Discussion
So is this Saamwill's idea? How is he allowed on this page as he is not a moderator? Scandinator (talk) 10:03, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think that he considers himself to be a mod, as he hhit the 5 points on the voting.However, in reality, he isn't a mod because he hit 5 votes one day after Fed had hit 5, and the election was supposed to choose only two mods.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:43, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ideas
We should plan out larger events(I'm talking revolutions, secessions, wars, and major stuff not "The Sultanate of Microland-state annexes Reallylittletown" if you know what I mean. We can begin by planning certain events in the coming 17th century. I am writing in a long-overdue Dutch/Flemish revolt sometime in the 1690s. How long should I make it last? A bigger question is who will get Burgundy's colonies? If the Netherlands and Flanders gain independence, then Burgundy will become landlocked and no longer able to administer them. Tough question this is.AP (talk) 09:25, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Some of the Burgundian colonies are rather large. These would lose some area back to unexplored, and other parts to other colonizers. The core of the colony would likely ceade to France as they are closest in culture. The Dutch and Flemish will also leave the HRE. Scandinator (talk) 09:56, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I guess that the newly-independent nations would get some, but they would probably be reduced on size.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:59, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant late 1580s or 1590s. They(Burgundy I mean) are definitly losing the war, though. I might write it in next turn. About the colonies, I agree. The only thing that I see bad coming out of this is the immense amount of complaining that Burgundy's player likes to do--knowing him, he's going to metagame and give his "Coastal Colonies" (as he likes to call them) further autonomy.AP (talk) 19:52, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps just have part of the Netherlands gain independence (e.g. just Friesland). Otherwise Burgundy's colonies could be invaded by other nations, sold, the small ones collaspe, or they decide to join France or someone. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:04, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I was planning to centralise a bunch of the Colombian Andes into a Chibcha Confederation, so maybe that would take a bit of the inside parts of the Colombian colony, and another part can be annexed  by Cyprus; the rest should become part of the successor states or leave Burgundy with a small amount of ports. Fed (talk) 21:16, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to have the Netherlands and Flanders win their independence. Burgundy will lose its coastline, but it can always expand south and gain a Mediterranean coastline either through war or diplomacy so it's not that bad.AP (talk) 02:41, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

I have another idea.we could make Flanders and Holland (they don't have any reason to be called Netherlands controlling only half of the area.) split after the revolution is victorious.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by split?AP (talk) 08:17, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

That only after they are victorious, those nations will form.until then, will be major independentist revolt on certain cities (Hague, Brussels, Flanbders, etc.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:04, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

HRE break up
Okay Scraw has a plan to break up the HRE as seen here. I would like to break it up as soon as we can. But apparently Scan and AP are stopping this plan from succeeding. So yeah can you just let this plan be carried out, otherwise the HRE will never break up. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:58, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

I retconned the independence of North Bavaria, which is implausible and would not set the collapse back.AP (talk) 03:55, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

To be quite honest I didn't look too much into the matter. I just want it gone so just letting you know. I agree that is quite implausible, perhaps we should just end it ourselves. I mean I don't see how North Bavarian independence is so detremental to their plan... Guess we'll wait and see for a little while longer. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:43, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

More ideas
Here is where y'all post your ideas.

Here's a few:

Since this whole German thing, Aragon needs to break away and join Iberia or something. It's been way too long. If they choose to go to war, they will lose anyway.

We need to start having some of the ethnically Russian states join the RF.

A colonial restriction on colonization past the Appalachian mountains.

Anything else?

AP (talk) 03:25, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well, about England.Thay can't just stay fragmented forever, and i doubt that some player will enter as some nation there, what with Persia.So i thought on Wales annexing or vassalizing Wessex/Winchester and Mercia/Tamworth, and maybe expanding outward.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:34, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds cool. Like Wales dominating southern England. Also, what about Scotland? They haven't made a move in ages. BTW I think that the Apache player is being a bit implasusible... They are incredibly isolated and crossing hundreds of miles of unforgiving desert to contact Cyprus. In fact, he had his chief convert to christianity... I dont think this is plausible at all. They are too far inland for anything to be happening atm. Even when they contacted the Spanish, the Apache kept to themselves were around until the US obliterated them in the Red River Wars.AP (talk) 02:26, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

About Scotland, the problem is that Lurker is still around, but doesn't post.About the apache, Really.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:38, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Well just send Lurk a message then to let him know. Its not really a problem, but remember Northumberland has a player too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:38, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the Northumbrian player is basically inactive.20 days absent, at minimum is enough?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:19, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... China has had a long history of revolts, maybe we should do something with that? Scandinator (talk) 14:45, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah perhaps the north revolts and the Mongols regain independence? This could start a revolution and a new dynasty coming to power... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:50, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Metagamers
Looks like we have a fresh case of metagaming. A player has seen this page and has metagamed accordingly. Thoughts?AP (talk) 06:54, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well tell us who and what he did so those of us who haven't been playing for the past few days can find out. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:39, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Scraw read this page and that we were going to have Aragon revolt from Brandenburg. He then proceeded to ceding the throne of Aragon to his king's brother that very same turn. Eventually, i'm having Aragon join Collie's Iberia.AP (talk) 18:24, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget that Navarra is also on this personal union.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:16, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Rules
I think that it's about time to add the NPC bonus to the rules page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:58, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and a few of the other rules we decided upon on the talk page. We can use this oportunity to refine a few of the "precident rules" too. E.g. give a time limit to the algorithm score totaller (so you can join up wars into a larger series of wars to conquer another nation) and perhaps rise the 33.33% on these wars to 40%? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:47, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

And the NPC chance rule too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:00, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

So we doing this or what? A fair few important rules need to be added.

Plus can some of you come and intervene in making sure that this algorithm is correct too? We're having disagreements. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:52, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Ottomans=Christians?
What is going on with this Kingdom of the Romans. It was implausible when it became a Caliphate but now it just went off the deep end by converting to christianity out of the blue.AP (talk) 21:20, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Hit them with a civil war, divide it into Muslim and Christian parts. Crimea would rebel away too. It is implausible but a Christian coup d'etait makes a lil' sense. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

Yank
I'm sick to death of his bias towards certain countries. Something needs to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:48, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I agree, the mod events from the past two years(1603-04) have been extremely biased. I say negative mod event and, if he continues with his antics, a removal of moderatorship. I propose that (since he's all but ignored his "New Manchuria" colony) that colony be destroyed by something like Indians, natural disaster, etc. OR We could have Korea declare its independence.AP (talk) 05:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'd say Korean independence would be more likely. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:22, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I've dropped the last mod event. I promise not to pick on Von any longer. Yank 21:08, February 6, 2013  (UTC)

Thank you and make sure this doesn' happen a third time please.AP (talk) 02:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Map Issues
We need to stop having two maps, it's confusing and misleading. I'm getting rid of one of them.AP (talk) 02:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Why is everybody posting their own maps lately seeing they are almost equal to the original?there is a "Upload a new version of this file" button on the file.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

According to the rules, anyone is allowed to edit the map for their own nation. But there should be a limit. Also, we will from this point on we will NOT have two maps at once. I will leave one map up.AP (talk) 05:05, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I know, but people should not ignore this button and start to post their own maps in an different name when this map only includes changes to their nation and they are not the mapmakers.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:23, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I've updated with some of the missed out mod events, war results and most annoyingly, several things which I have to keep adding to maps as they aren't being carried over. Use this new updated 1605 map for the 1610 map because I am tired of having to constantly keep updating these maps to fix the same issue again & again, just because you keep forgetting to check to see if it is updated. The map get updated every year. If you are wondering why these changes are being made, I will explain the reason behind the changes you don't understand e.g. the mod event in 1584 destroyed Yaroslavl, Rostov and Vladimir so that is why they shouldn't be there. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:02, February 9, 2013 (UTC)