Talk:United States Atlantic Remnant (1983: Doomsday)

Wouldn't this fall under the jurisdiction of the American Provisional Administration post-Doomsday? Then all the territories would become independent or associate themselves with another state, like ANZC. Caeruleus 01:48, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, the APA was only based in the Pacific. Puerto Rico is independent, and the US Virgin Islands are ECF-Associated, but they can still govern Navassa Island, Gitmo, and the US Virgin Islands (to a certain extent for the USVI though). If you want, you can work on it with me and help me fill it in more. Arstarpool 01:50, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gitmo would be overrun by the Cubans the moment the missiles were detected by Cuban radar systems. Navassa Island would probably reach out and join Haiti or Jamaica or everyone there would die of starvation. And if Puerto Rico is indenpedent and the US Virgin Islands are associated with the ECF, what's the point? Not to tear you down or anything, but it seems unrealistic and unnecessary. Caeruleus 02:25, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Caeruleus. Gitmo would be under Cuban control (as discussed on the South Florida talk page) and if there were any American soldiers left alive, they would have left Cuba a long time ago. Also you are forgetting the . Any American naval forces would have made their way to Australia. Mitro 03:37, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * With all due respect to the Gathering order, I think that the the immediate situation at Guantanamo Bay would probably have come to a head before that controversial call by the Bush administration. Facing confusion at the loss of most of their government, the Cubans may have not had been able to respond by invading a heavily armed US Naval base. The forces there would have held their own, probably having been on high alert like every other base in and around the US at the time. The nuclear blast at Santiago would have provided enough confusion on the eastern side of the island.


 * By the end of 1983, the forces at Guantanamo would have implemented emergency maneuvers throughout the Caribbean, most likely first on Hispaniola and Jamaica. At the same time radio contact with US forces on Puerto Rico and in the US Virgin Islands would have established a network among all US citizens in the islands - both US and foreign owned. Little Navessa Island, however, would probably be ceded to Haiti in the name of international harmony rather than become a strategic resettlement location.--SouthWriter 23:41, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A quick comment, I will not give up Navassa Island, as it is one of the few islands that the USAR will control should Zack not allow me to use the USVI. Instead, Navassa would house a small port/Navy base and a little community around Lulu Town, nothing more. Besides, as I can see Haiti fared worse in this timeline than in real life! Arstarpool 23:49, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gitmo would be overrun by the Cuban forces stationed outside it. That's the one thing the Cubans were ready to do throughout the Cold War. Idk about Navassa Island. An island that small and isolated would have a very difficult time surviving. I could see the population easily dying from famine. Caeruleus 23:52, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wrong, wrong, wrong. When a nearby city essentially gave Gitmo a "radioactive shield", plus a mine field and a cactus curtain it would be impossible, and literally impossible for the Cuban forces to take over. Believe me, I am both a Cuban-American and an American who has had family in the US military since the American Civil War, and every war after it. So when Santiago was nuked the Cubans would not be like "okay, our families just got blown up, lets go kill the greengos!' they would probably be busy choking on radioactive dust and crying for their families. And the Cuban military put together is about the size of the Tennessee National Guard I read once, so they would not be in a position to take over.


 * And Navassa Island is uninhabited. However, after only today asking an inside source I found out that Navassa Island was the "back-up Gitmo" in case the Cubans took over Gitmo. Arstarpool 23:58, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Okay...? The Cubans would bomb Gitmo as soon as the missiles were picked up on radar, so it would certainly see significant damage from that. Also, I'm pretty sure the Cubans stationed a large military force outside Gitmo that was ready to assault the base at any time. Even with nuclear strikes in the distance, there's no reason why they wouldn't assault Gitmo.
 * And if Navassa Island is the "back up Gitmo," that could make for an interesting article, but I still see the whole USAR idea unnecessary. Caeruleus 00:03, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

You are over-estimating the Cubans forces. They are a weak and cowardly army that are not even well-fed sometimes! The Cactus Curtain and the Mine Field was/is not like the DMZ between North and South Korea. The Cubans are just mad that they have the Americans have a piece of their soil and probably would attack it, but the Mine Field and the Cactus Curtain guaranteed that they would never enter the base. Arstarpool 00:12, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Arstar here, Caer. The Cuban would not have had the troop strength nor the air power in the wake of the unprovoked attack by the US missiles. I doubt if the military would have had time once they realized that they had been targeted. It's not like they'd have much time, being as close as they are to the silos in Missouri. With all those missiles in the air, picking one out and judging its trajectory would probably have been impossible anyway.


 * The "back up Gitmo" angle is unusual, but it does not show up on the Navassa article on Wikipedia. Your inside info needs to be sourced before we chance that in this time line. I wrote it out of the synopsis I just put on the American diaspora article in favor of Jamaica. We would need the resources of that friendly island so close to Cuba.--SouthWriter 01:17, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if Gitmo can't be taken by Cuban forces, rhen this is viable. It'll be interesting to see it when complete. Caeruleus 03:02, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if Gitmo cannot be taken immediately after Doomsday, it makes no sense that it wouldn't happen later. We are talking about an isolated military outpost that is cut off from its nation. We have soldiers who have no idea if their families are even alive and no supplies are likely to be arriving anytime soon. In all likelihood Gitmo would have been abandoned and it would have been occupied by the Cubans once they restored order to the island. Mitro 17:53, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Flag
I think the flag is inappropriate. This Remnant is not a nation, as such, but rather a group of Americans, acting on orders of the US government in time of need. I am not sure how this will work out in connection with the Gathering Order, but in those months after Doomsday it could have been a plan that helped organize Americans outside the "kill zone" on the mainland. If any flag was used during this period, it would have been the 50-star US flag (as was flown by the APA and the PUSA during that period).

If this is meant to represent the present day configuration of the Remnant, then perhaps some sort of flag can be flown by those conclaves of Americans that refuse to be assimilated after the Gathering Order officially calls their protectors away. Which brings up the "mutiny" question again. Would the Caribbean forces consider abandoning known US survivors to bolster the government a half a world away? SouthWriter 02:18, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

It is the American equivalent of the RTFA. That is as simple as I can put it. The soldiers at Gitmo helped unite the American people scattered throughout the small abundance of Atlantic Territories under a single, functioning government that promises to keep America alive in the Atlantic, but only as it would be practical for the Virgin Islands, Navassa, Gitmo, and any other territory. However once the Gathering Order was sent out the troops were dumbfounded on whether they should set out or to stay and protect the Americans they can. About a third of the soldiers set out, although only a fraction of them reached Australia. However those that did notified the APA of the Remnant's existence, but due to communication difficulties the Remnant stayed detached from the APA.

However the Puerto Ricans, although they no longer had the American tit to suck the sweet milk of welfare money from, used this to establish themselves as an independent nation out of the hands of America. Rather than fight a bloody war, a demarcation line was set between mainland Puerto Rico and the "Puerto Rico Virgin Islands", with the Remnant keeping the PRVI. However, the East Carribean Federation was founded soon after. In order to keep themselves better cared for, the Remnant decided to join the Federation under special conditions which allowed them more wiggle room than the other members.

In the present day, they control the following areas:

Gitmo

US Virgin Islands

Puerto Rico Virgin Islands

Navassa Island

As you can see they have a small sphere of control, so I want a flag that is based on these lands. Arstarpool 02:41, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think it will work, but it is a great idea. This is going to have to be a loose-knit organization rather than a string of islands making up a "Micro-America" in the Atlantic. Even if it can work, there probably cannot be a presense in either Guantanamo or Navassa Island. Guantanamo would almost certainly be considered Cuban territory after the unprovoked attack on the island by at least two nuclear bombs. The treaty of 1902 would certainly have been considered broken by this provocation. As for Navassa, the island is tiny and too close to a voliatle Haiti for a safe haven for Americans. Any settlement there would be dependent on Jamaica for support anyway.


 * I have not sought to edit this article yet, but I am working on what I hope is canon-friendly changes to the "American diaspora" article that I hope can incorporate this idea. It is far better to work with the group than insert novel or unique concepts into the established time line. I think the US Armed forces of the Caribbean, lead by the Guantanamo Bay command, can be a big help in stablelizing the American diaspora (aka Remnant) in the area. But forming a new nation out of those people is not the way to go. SouthWriter 03:09, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

How About Now?
I've answered most if not all questions regarding plausibility, so I will show the answer to those questions.

Wouldn't Navassa Island be Haitian? No, they would not be. Haiti would have as bad as an American survivor state without any food imports and would be focusing on keeping their own borders from collapsing. Anyways, the remnant was formed in 1983 so if they did try to conquer it they would be slaughtered by the Americans.


 * What is the meaning of "keeping their own borders from collapsing? And wouldn't December of 1984 be a little early to form this organization? SouthWriter 05:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there are many rival militant factions in Haiti, each fighting against each other, so basically it would be a miracle if the Haitan government managed to keep the whole place under control.

They could not be a "Micro-America": Well, they are not a nation, rather a bunch of united territories. They are associated with the ECF, but separate in many ways. And the Remnant is only made up of the Spanish VI, US VI, Navassa, and Gitmo! And only three are populated, so they would be pretty close-knit together and would not stray.


 * If it is not meant to be a "micro-America," then why did the military establish a capital city, a distinct flag, and government officials? SouthWriter 05:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Gitmo would be seized: I laugh at this question. As I once read, the Cuban military is about a little bit weaker than the Tennessee National Guard, and there are over 3,000 US Troops at Gitmo, and a mine field, and the Cactus Curtain, so any Cuban that makes it trough will be shot on sight. Read up before you object.


 * Why do you assume you are an expert on Cuba and the policy of the US military at Guantanamo Bay? SouthWriter 05:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did I ever say that? No. You can learn a lot from retired soldiers and Wikipedia. I'm no expert, but I pretty much know the most about the base of everyone here. Arstarpool 23:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

'''Hey! USVI is ECF Territory:''' I had Zack's permission under certain conditions to use them, so that is my answer to that question.


 * Why do you think you can manipulate previously established material for your own purposes? SouthWriter 05:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify something, I said Arstar could use the USVI so long as it did not contradict canon. --GOPZACK 22:18, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did I violate canon whatsoever? No. No canon was contradicted because in reality the USVI are not mentioned in the entire timeline other than the word appearing on older versions of the ECF. And Zack, the caretaker and contributor of the ECF allowed me to "use" the USVI so long as they were associated with the ECF in some way. Arstarpool 23:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Please do not post a whole paragraph on why you disagree. Post small answers and post them tone neutral in question form and I will get to them below. Arstarpool 23:17, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your request to answer with questions "tone neutral" was a bit odd. It is very hard to disagree just by posting short questions. I am sorry if my questions seem anything but "tone neutral." It just seems that you are "trying to hard" to get your way on this. SouthWriter 05:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Adoption
I'll adopt it, otherwise, this worthy effort will have to be marked obsolete. I say that because it's creator has done what he can with it, but has not met the key objections that the community has brought against it. This is not meant as a slight on the creator's attempts, but the look and feel of the article may change quite a bit to bring it in line with what had been before this article was proposed. SouthWriter 17:20, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I've decided to go it alone, thank you. I am, however, willing to reach a compromise between how you percieve the USAR and how I percieve it. I have seen it cannot govern all the territories, but at the same time I do not like your idea of it essentially becoming the "CRUSA" of the Caribbean. Anything in between may, just may be okay with me. Arstar 02:17, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why didn't you send this to my talk page. I completely missed it until today. And that AFTER I finally began working on the article. I am going to send the work I did on it this afternoon to my sandbox and let you see what you think. I am disappointed that you did not seek further discussion (I see you took out a lot about Guantanomo, but have not given up on it). The article will not work with Guatanomo remaining.


 * However, I did notice that the US Virgin Islands are NOT listed on the ECF page, so it is reasonable to locate the USAR as the "provisional" government in the USA (the only 'legitimate' one until they learn of the re-instituted USA). By the way, I don't see any reason why the reunification of the USAR can't be immediate. Any way, so my work this afternoon and evening won't go to waste, it is for view by all at my sandbox. I am sorry that I did not notice this last month when you decided to deny the "adoption" plea to me, Arsta r. I hope that we can work together, now, to make this idea a reality. SouthWriter 03:12, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * PS, I completely misread the timestamp! I struck through instead of deleted to remind myself of how flawed I am. A little humiltiy goes along way, you know. Anyway, I still hope we can work together. SouthWriter 03:19, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I will combine the current revision on the actual page with your sandbox revision to create a compromise on my sandbox. We both have different views on what would happen, but I think we can meet halfway on something decent. But there's no way Haiti (of all places!) would be able to take control of Navassa. They would be weaker or on par to with an American survivor state (they were already starving so I can't see how the could survive further without international aid). Just because some "third world" nations in this TL are more powerful than in OTL, this does not apply to Haiti which is just as weak or weaker in this timeline. But I recomend you read the Haiti article through and then tell me what you think. Navassa Island has limited freshwater resources so it would be hard for them to maintain a military presence, but the ECF could possibly help the USAR establish something on the island.
 * I will combine the current revision on the actual page with your sandbox revision to create a compromise on my sandbox. We both have different views on what would happen, but I think we can meet halfway on something decent. But there's no way Haiti (of all places!) would be able to take control of Navassa. They would be weaker or on par to with an American survivor state (they were already starving so I can't see how the could survive further without international aid). Just because some "third world" nations in this TL are more powerful than in OTL, this does not apply to Haiti which is just as weak or weaker in this timeline. But I recomend you read the Haiti article through and then tell me what you think. Navassa Island has limited freshwater resources so it would be hard for them to maintain a military presence, but the ECF could possibly help the USAR establish something on the island.

PS: When we reach a compromise you will have full caretaker rights on the article. I'm just sticking with it to see through it fits in the loose framework of how I originally thought of it as. Arstar 03:32, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * The USVI have been listed as part of the Caribbean Federation since the beginning. If you look at the bottom of the versions before August 2010 the last bullet point says "US and British Virgin Islands." So while technically a breach of canon, the fact that the ECF is very underdeveloped (one of XiReney's early stubs) gives it a little more "wiggle room." Plus, this idea is very, very cool.


 * But regarding the Guantanamo base: the biggest question is, how do the troops eat? Where does their fuel and power come from? And why was the base not a target, anyway? If it were not a nuclear target, why would the Cubans hurl themselves across the Cactus Curtain rather than simply blockade it? At the very least, you'd think the Gitmo troops would take what they could and relocate someplace where they were not surrounded by a large perpetual enemy. And that was 27 years ago, mind. Where are the fresh troops coming from? There are just too many factors against the Americans at Gitmo to explain it away by saying, "The Cubans are weak and cowardly."


 * On a related note: There were survivors among the Americans in Panama. I wrote, "The Americans were also soon torn by factions of their own, with many choosing to cross the isthmus to make their way out of the country. Many ended up in former American territory in Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Those troops that remained were soon indistinguishable from the other guerrilla groups fighting for advantage in the countryside." In light of this, I'll change this part so that almost all of the Americans who left Panama ended up in the VI's, or even Navassa.


 * I agree that Haiti would have neither the means to take Navassa, nor any reason to try. Bigger problems, and all that. Benkarnell 03:34, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, guys, I made slight changes to South's revision and my revision. This is my "compromise", tell me what you think? It gives up Gitmo which is the main objection and keeps Navassa. Arstar 03:51, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, guys, I made slight changes to South's revision and my revision. This is my "compromise", tell me what you think? It gives up Gitmo which is the main objection and keeps Navassa. Arstar 03:51, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm still surprised Gitmo wasn't a nuclear target. The logic of the arms race was that it didn't matter that it was located on an island favorable to the USSR: you just blew up everything. Benkarnell 04:03, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Ben, but we have it established that they survived. Now I've compromised with Arstar and I think we can make this work.  The troops do not stay in Cuba, but leave for Navassa (I assume) and for the USVI.  We can haggle over whether the USVI are to be sovereign or just autonoumous, but the "military government will suffise for now. SouthWriter 05:23, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't get me wrong, I like this a lot. But established where?  I really want to know why.  It just seems that Guantanamo would be one of the very most obvious targets.  Benkarnell 05:55, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Government
There's not much on the government yet. It seems to me that the USAR would have a very militarized government. By now probably democracy has been instituted, but the military were the ones who founded the state, and are no doubt the real power behind the government. I can imagine most of the elected officials being men with military backgrounds, including a great many who enlisted after the mid-80s. And most of the new guard are probably black West Indians who speak a creole. That's my take on it, anyway. Benkarnell 04:01, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Bravo! Yes it is a heavily militaristic society. My guess goes loosely at around a fifth of the soldiers are White Hispanics or Caucasians. Remember it was the twilight of that years tourist season so there would still be thousands of whites from abroad. And the rest are most likely Afro-Caribeans who speak a new dialect, Virgin Islands English, as their main native language. The VI Creole language was already beginning the process of decreolization (as of 2010 most of the younger black generation in the USVI speak a mix of American English and the VI Creole) and as a successor to the United States the government probably encourages American English. But my guess is that 40% speaks Virgin Islands English, 20% American English, 30% Creole, 5% Spanish and 5% Queen English.

The soldiers probably are 75% blacks with the rest Whites or White-Hispanic like I said above. Arstar 04:54, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Panamanian survivors
Do you mind if I add a short section about the survivors from Panama? Benkarnell 04:01, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Sure. By the way, what do you think would be the USAR's glance on the Panama Canal? Would they claim it, be a joint-control member, or just leave it to the South Americans? Arstar 04:22, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there's no way they could be a joint-control member. The canal was refurbished entirely by Colombia, Ecuador, and Venezuela, and they have jealously guarded their status as the "builder nations." But would the USAR claim it? That's tricky. Here's what I think. If the USAR wants any hope of using the canal for commercial purposes, they'd have to drop their claim. But maybe they're small enough that they have no reason to use the canal: in that case they may as well keep claiming it! What have they got to lose? Benkarnell 05:22, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * The miltary government, turned democratic (see above), would probably not wish the bother of "claiming" all of the former US' territories. Carter had signed the treaty back in the 70's that honored the 99 year lease. The rebuilding of the canal gives those that rebuilt it control (along with LoN oversight). Trade going out of St. Thomas would mostly be in the Atlantic, so they would have no big reason to use the canal. When they needed to go to ANZC, the trip is just as close to go around Africa. When trade begins with the Pacific Rim, I suppose some they will want to be on good relations with the SAC. But by then, they will be part of the USA, and new treaties will be made for use of the canal that has gone over into the hands of its rebuilders (and according to treaty out of US control in 1999). SouthWriter 05:34, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point about Carter's lease. The ANZC's claim on the Canal Zone was based on some very shaky interpretations of that treaty (basically, that ANZC = USA, but Colombia =/= Panama). So you're right: the Atlantic Remnant would definitely not claim the Canal. Its commercial use would be covered by the League of Nations-brokered treaty saying "the SAC may not discriminate against the ships of any nation passing through the Canal Zone, except in case of war." Benkarnell 05:44, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you going to write the section or not? Arstar 20:19, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you going to write the section or not? Arstar 20:19, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

constitutionality
In such an insanely unusual time of war, I'm not sure that the constitutionalality of the president's actions would be what would raise the most ire. The abandonment would be the problem, but surely with nuclear hell raining down, Reagan/Bush/whoever had the authority to do rather extraordinary things. No? Benkarnell 20:24, October 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose so. Under the War Powers clauses a lot of things are done - with or without constitutional authority.  However, General Order 0001-1984 was technically not in a time of war.  The government, in the name of its own security, was calling its troops away from their duty "on the front lines" as it were to bolster its own existence in exile.  Those troops stranded in Europe and South America (west coast) may have been one thing, but those in the Caribbean had ports of call all over the east and south of the US.  Their first duty would have been to the US, not to the president thereof.  I think a case could have been made to a federal court -- if one could be found. SouthWriter 21:13, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * No court would hear such a case due to the political question. Furthermore the President is the Commander in Chief for a reason.  The soldiers' duty would be to follow his orders.  Mitro 21:15, October 15, 2010 (UTC)