Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labelled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stability
Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points. If your points drop below 1000, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 500, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely.CrimsonAssassin 15:19, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds all good. We should be able to incorporate it every five years. Maybe a couple of edits to the formula:
 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 cash crops and spices, 50 other non-staple food/mining/guano)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)

Stability = Status Quo/(Territory+log(Population))
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * +25 economic improvement
 * +30 religious/moral revival
 * +25 infrastructure
 * +10 war
 * 100*percent won in a war
 * -500*percent lost in a war

Stability will be placed in the key beginning 1700, and implemented the same year. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:44, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population)/Territory + 1)*500
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.

I think we could use more additions or subtractions, like this:

Penalties: Benifits: CrimsonAssassin 01:05, September 16, 2011 (UTC) I want to kind of avoid that becoming too complicated or subjective, but here's my opinions: Benifits: Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:09, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50
 * Major invasion= -100
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100
 * War won= +50
 * Improvements= +30
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every trade route= +5
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20
 * Penalties:
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20 (sure)
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20 (this would encourage people to cut wars short rather than make them plausible) From what I've seen, most wars last around five years, but whatever you think the average war lasts on PM is fine.
 * Nearby unrest= -10 (not sure what you mean) A nearby nation has a civil war or breaks down
 * Minor invasion= -50 (makes sense, but realize expansion already kills you in wars. This interferes with the war algorithm anyway.) By this, I mean a border skirmish that ended up going into your territory.
 * Major invasion= -100 (differece between major and minor?) If a big chunk (maybe more than 15%) is captured or if a major city is captured.
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (would be unfair for smaller countries, and very subjective. Do you mean internal or external?) External. Most countries have a fine network of trade with other countries from what I've seen.
 * War won= +50 (I'd prefer if it depends on how well the war was won. An easily won war would have minimal effect, but a long, dragging war would be damaging even with victory) I guess this could be taken off.
 * Improvements= +30 (sure)
 * Every alliance= +10 (makes sense, but only as a one time thing)
 * Every trade route= +5 (vague. I don't think most people are going to make a list of trade routes and if they do they will probably overestimate. But I agree we need something like this.) Maybe financial alliances or something?
 * Every vassal= +20 (Vassals don't help with stability. This is more of a power issue) Yeah, this is kind of stupid
 * Every colony= +20 (I wouldn't say colonies count as stability, more as power like vassals) So is this

Posted clarifications in bold.

If this is too complicated, the mods can always zap countries back in line CrimsonAssassin 04:21, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

This means that we're gonna have to use full turns in each turn to not lose points?And, about economic points, and if you don't have any idea about what are the resources of your country?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:29, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it's no big deal. It simulates most countries' rise and decline. Most European countries don't have that many resources, unfortunately, but if you get a colony you can add the resources. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:17, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 16
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1560
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1560/4= 390 xpi = 2450.442269800038726000861838958
 * Chance= 8


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 52

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 4
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 31

Result
Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 25.3% of Aztec Territory

52/83=.6265

.6265-.5= .1265

.1265* 2= .2530

Treaty of Tallinn
This treaty, signed in the Capital of Estland, Tallinn, officialy ends the Third Russo-Swedish war. This treaty will determine the fate of Denmark, Estonia, Oldenburg, Doitsuchou, Livonia(liflandia)/Courland.(loopholes are in brackets)

Peace Terms

 * 1) Sweden and her coalition powers (those whom fought at Sweden's side) MUST akgnowledge their defeat in this conflict, and take on the burden of being responsible for this war. This includes providing war repatriatons of 1 million kronars to Russia, 2 million kronars to the AGC and half a million to Naples.(notice I said faught, not supported)
 * 2) The territory of Livonia is either become a vassal of or be annexed by Lithuania.
 * 3) The Gulf of FInland Islands are to be annexed by Russia, and the Islands of Saaremaa and Hiiuma are to be incorporated into Livonia.
 * 4) The Anglo-Geman Commonwealth will Be Granted the Eastern Oldenburg and Prussia
 * 5) Sweden will retain full control of Western Oldenburg, Doitsuchou, and Estland Proper(not including islands of Saaremaa and Hiiuma).
 * 6) Estland is not to engage in any military conflicts whatsoever against Russia, Anglo-Germany, Naples, China, or Hanthawaddy, same goes for Denmark (although this refers to the official danish army, you can still use it if you make a greater Swedish army)
 * 7) Estland will be allowed to remain Sweden's Vassal, and will not be annexed into Sweden Proper
 * 8) Denmark is to join in Personal Union or form a supernational confederation(like the KU before it) with Sweden, and not be annexed into Sweden Proper
 * 9) Sweden and Sweden Alone must rebuild any Neapolitan ships sunk, and help rebuild any Anglo-German ships sunk in some way or another(this can be covered by war reperations, and is included in the 2 million kronar reperations, if you dont want to send your craftsmen to rebuild them and keep them in sweden to rebuild your navy).
 * 10) Swedish military outposts in Estland must remain at an equal number or less than Russian ones(notice I said Swedish and not Estonian)
 * 11) Any violation of this treaty must be interpreted as an act of war, but a benifit of the doubt must be considered(comunications, even between generals to the king werent stelar in the 1680s)

Principia Moderni-related notes
Sweden can use this treaty in being angry so they attack Russia again around 1710 or something, so there can be an armed conflict that Russia wins under Peter I or something, as long as its orchestrated and everyone knows it's happening, like an extention of this war, like WWII was to WWI

Signatures
Signatory States: Winning Coalition, Loosing Coalition and neutral observer states.

Russia/Anglo-Germany (victorious) Coalition
Please sign as your king/leader/emperor's name and title(of a regent is present write the Regent's name and Title after the Name of the actual de jure ruler), folowed by 3 tiles. Vassals/Puppets may sign, and in the same manner as main nations. Use Russia and Kazakhstan's signaturea as examples.

Peter I and Ivan VI, Tsars of all Russias and Lithuania, Dominators of Livonia, Grand Dukes of the Caucasus, Chrimea, and the Far East, Rulers of Siberia and all their Posessions. Sophia Alexeyevna Romanova, Regent of all Russias and Lithuania.LxCaucassus

Anzer Talkan, Khazar of Kazakhstan and Vassal to Russia LxCaucassus

Ankar Azal, Emir of South Armenia(puppet to Russia) LxCaucassus

His Royal Majesty Angelo Entori King of Naples, Sovereign of the Neapolitan Empire, and Protector of the Faith. LurkerLordB

Pope Urban VI, Archbishop of Rome, Head of the Catholic Church, and Master of the Papal States. LurkerLordB

Suryamala, Emperor of Hanthawaddy, Bengal, and their possessions. Detectivekenny

His Majesty the King of the Germanic peoples and Emperor of the Imperial Anglo-German Commonwealth, Frederick the first, R. I.Zagoria 00:13, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Swedish (Defeated) Coalition
Please sign as your king/leader/emperor's name and title(of a regent is present write the Regent's name and Title after the Name of the actual de jure ruler), folowed by 3 tiles. Vassals/Puppets may sign, and in the same manner as main nations. Use Russia and Kazakhstan's signaturea as examples.

Robert Bertrand, King of France as Robert III and King of the Burgundians as Robert I. Galaguerra1 01:17, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Christina Alexandra, Queen of the Swedes, Norweigns, Goths and Vandals, Grand Princess of Finland, Duchess of Estonia, Holland and Karelia and Supreme ruler of the Swedish colonies.Scandinator

Discussion and Proposed Changes

 * You really wouldn't need all the free-ports stuff added, you could just say that you won't restrict German Ships sailing through the Danish islands. LurkerLordB 16:18, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, since for Brandenburg, Jutland is crucial for communications with England, it is very necessary.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:24, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that, even though I won the war, I am losing more territory then I gained? I would like control of at least part of eastern OTL Netherlands.Zagoria 19:08, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, they probably should give you a passage to the Atlantic there. If Zagoria doesn't accept the treaty, doesn't that mean that Germany keeps all of their prior territory, and then takes however much they earned from winning the war from Sweden? LurkerLordB 19:21, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Since Anglo-Germany wants more, Naples and the Papal states withdrew from the treaty until Anglo-Germany's demands are met.LurkerLordB 21:41, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

To make it fair, Anglo-Germany should probably be given at least equal to the amount of territory they lost, if not a little extra since they actually won.LurkerLordB 21:41, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

If the Commonwealth don't have a coast to the Northern Sea, it will be de facto separated from its british territory, then Sweden will control the communication between the two provinces. May be, the Commonwealth can keep Holstein --Galaguerra1 22:11, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

BTW who removed me kinda saying that I control the Finnish Gulf Islands?(contro the Gulf of Finland). oh ya and I think I should Control Saaremaa and Hiiuma islands, which is what I meant in the COntols the entrance to the Gulf of finland term that Somebody erased. and at least give AGC control of the Trait of Jutland.LxCaucassus 22:22, October 16, 2011 (UTC)



I propose this(and edit treaty accordingly if approved)LxCaucassus 22:44, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Naples and the Papal States will re-approve of it now that Germany has access to the atlantic. LurkerLordB 23:23, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Commonwealth will approve this treaty.Zagoria 00:09, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Since Anglo-Germany now has a seaport, shouldn't the "free port" stuf be removed?LurkerLordB 00:50, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me, i forgot to delete it.

Sweden rejects this edit and proposes that sweden retains the Netherlands and Doitsuchou and Oldenburg is split between the two nations. AGC thus gains Hamburg and other Altanic ports. I will post a map at around 5:00 UTC

Can I have OTL Friesland and Groningen too? Sweden is still getting far more territory than the Commonwealth, and plus Denmark has a much higher population and agriculture than Prussia. This way the Commonwealth gets more territory and population while Sweden gets to retain Amsterdam and the major ports.Zagoria 02:44, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

How about this new treaty:

LurkerLordB 02:01, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

The Incas ridiculous violations of the rules
Whoever plays as the Incas just recently came back and decided to godmod his empire to extents that make Januasary seem like a moderator. I think that the Inca's last turn should be revoked, and the user should either be temporarily banned from the game until he can learn to play by the rules, or the Incan Empire should be broken up and destroyed. LurkerLordB 18:13, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) He stated that he already industrialized, despite the fact that industrialization is not scheduled to start until 1700, and begin in Russia and slowly spread outward from there.
 * 2) He brought his nation out of civil disarray without even mentioning it.
 * 3) He claims that his nation upgraded its military while he was gone, while in fact, if you don't post, your nation doesn't upgrade anything.
 * 4) He conquered two powerful kingdoms, Manoa and the other one I can't spell, without an algorithm or even a war.
 * 5) He expanded his nation more than twice its normal size in one year, a feat that is impossible and could never have occured.

dude, i have been expanding for at least 15 years and, probably more, as well as modernizing my army, navy and industrilaizing, no one ever update my maps and if I need to keep writing the exact same thing over and over and over and over, well you get the picture, check the archives. DeanSims 18:25, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

The moderators said you went into civil disarray, the Incas have been fighting eachother for the past decade or so, no time to improve. Plus, you still ignored the algorithm, as well as the rule that you cannot industrialize until after Russia (which will occur in 1700). You also did not post any of those past 15 years. If you didn't post it on the game, it didn't happen. LurkerLordB 19:19, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the moderators already overruled your actions and reverted them. LurkerLordB 20:08, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Not posting does not mean free expansion and industrialization. Not posting means "minor economic and military upgrades" at best. In fact, you didn't reply to my notice on your talk page, so I put your country into civil disarray. You're just going to have to work with what you got, starting from scratch. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:44, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Division of France-Burgundy
I just want clarify the borders of Burgundy, now that is independent.

France conserves: Burgundy obtains: So I avoid any error in the next map. P.D.: Flanders is a colony? In thaht case, Jaeden would have four colonies--Galaguerra1 18:52, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) France
 * 2) Haiti
 * 3) New France
 * 4) East Algeria.
 * 1) Franche-Comté
 * 2) Flanders
 * 3) Cote d'Ivoire
 * 4) Guinée
 * 5) West Algeria

No, flanders is a extension of Burgundy, a exclave between France, Sweden and Brandenburg.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:04, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Industrializations


The map you have all been waiting for. It tells exactly when you may begin industrializing. But understand the stages of industrialization:

1) Beginning of industrialization: People move into the cities, and the steam engine may be utilized. Mass production may begin to replace cottage industries on a small scale.

2) Industrialization on a mass scale: Huge factories in cities, Industrial Revolution. Mining and hydraulics.

3) Fully industrialized: Trains and other steam-powered vehicles commonplace. Factories are scaled back and are made more efficient.

4) Transition from coal to other fossil fuels. Automobiles, etc. From here countries can make slow introductions of modern-day technology as long as it does not surpass OTL.

Here are the minimum dates:

Note: Any of this may change. Countries which make significant diplomacy, e.g. become vassalized under an industrial nation may industrialize sooner, although this will take a toll on the existing nation. There are other ways, too such as getting out of civil disarray, so if you have a question, ask. Also, if you have anything to add, please comment. Thanks! <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:50, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
The Russian Capital Will be moved to St Petersburg, it would make sense that St petersburg and Villnus were incorporated into the purple zone as lithuania has much coal(although siberia has ample wood and combustibles). Please, I want Siberia by 1700(Siberia-World's largest forest-wood-steam power), so please dont wage war on me untill 1710 and I wil use the multiple rivers to capitalize on gains faster(siberia literaly has hindreds of those!)and I have been expanding(by that point) into siberian territory for over 150 years!LxCaucassus 22:59, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Could nations that lose/win wars move up or down on the scale? Also, what in-game differences does it make to be industrialized? Such as having a bonus in wars against nations that are further down the scale. (Naples seems to be fine on the scale). Also, that map is now out of date, as the treaty map was changed to give Germany more territory. Actually, how do all those little nations in former Turkey industrialize before Naples? If they are moved back, I will be fine. LurkerLordB 23:17, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

I understand Sweden is bordering the "Cradle" of Industrialization, I do not understand why they are red, I believe that only Russia and her affiliate states(close vassals like livonia(basicaly part of Lithuania) and Lithuania as it is in personal union thus an exteniton of Russia itself) should be red as the "initiators" of the Revolution, and Sweden should be Orange as before because it is not an Affiliate of Russia. But ultimately, its up to the mods. LxCaucassus 01:26, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

@LurkerLord B Well, I've been basically going off this map. There appears to be a linear relationship between distance from the "cradle" and industrialization time. Basically on that map, darkest green is "cradle of the Industrial Revolution." Next darkest is "countries industrialized by the mid-19th century." Then "countries industrialized at the end of the 19th century." The lightest shade is "countries weakly industrialized at the end of the 19th century." Seeing that this timeline would be more focused on eastern Europe, it is natural that the Turkish states have access to the technology first.

The method I used to determine when countries industrialize is:
 * Countries or colonies industrialize one step later than their first neighbor to industrialize.
 * Colonies/Vassals industrialize one step later than their home countries.

But of course, the map only shows the minimum date. For example, I doubt Bhutan would begin industrialization by 1775. It's hardly industrialized in OTL today. For blank (non-player) nations, I think I will have the industrialization occur at least 15 years later than the minimum, more so for the Turkish states, so don't fret. And I encourage some people to restrain.

Less industrialized countries will have the benefit of cultural unity and linguistic bonuses (colonies and nearby countries will be more likely to highly esteem your culture — more details later). Industrialized countries will receive colonial bonus as follows:
 * Stage 1: none
 * Stage 2: Expansion inland (on pixels that do not share a face or corner with the sea) is tripled.
 * Stage 3: Expansion inland is quintupled.
 * Stage 4: Expansion inland is septupled, and coastal expansion is doubled.

@LxCaucassus the "initiation" area is the heartland containing St. Petersburg and the surrounding area. Considering how close Sweden is to St. Petersburg, it is natural that Sweden begins to industrialize 25 years after Russia. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:30, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

It just seems strange that a tiny, landlocked indian nation would industrialize before a nation with large amounts of trade and an overseas empire. Trade and empires should probably factor in as well. LurkerLordB 01:37, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

@DK Russi will probably keep St Petersburg a bit less industrialised as it is a capital and industrialisation is well, naturaly a bit filty, but will still have it as a cradle because, well, its the capital, so I dont think that the "cradle"(purple) zone will go up to the kola because, well, its cold and well, not many people live there but archangel will be incorporated as a large port city, so the "initiation"(red) zone shouldnt go to sweden as I understand it, the cradle zone is where the first steps into industrialization occur, and the Initiation zone is where the actual first industrializations occur, so Sweden should be in the "Interception"(orange) zone as when true Russian Industrialization occurs in 1725 then Sweden can look at it and as Russia's direct neighbor "Intercept" Industrial Tech.LxCaucassus 01:48, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

@LurkerLordB There are some problems with that argument. The Moluccas Islanders conducted lots of trade but didn't industrialize much. Spain and Portugal had huge empires but didn't industrialize until later. Meanwhile, the landlocked country of Switzerland was among the first to industrialize. If you plant a colony close to Russia or a Russian colony, it might get you industrialized quicker.

Persia is definitely in the lineup to be industrialize. Kashmir, if that is what you are talking about, will probably not industrialize for several decades after what is shown by the map, even though it borders Persia. The map was drawn objectively without respect to culture, etc.

@LxCaucassus draw a map, but don't upload it over my map. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:50, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

I was actually talking about the Rapjts. But I get your point. LurkerLordB 01:55, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

I came up with neat names for the color stages, if everyone agrees, then they will mabe become official?

Purple: Cradle Zone (the Cradle of Industrialization: where It all began)

Red: Initiation Zone (initiates true large scale industrialization)

Orange: Interception Zone (intercepts industrial tech from initiators)

Yellow: Impact Zone (impact of Industrialization in Interceptor and Initiation/Cradle nations initiates industialization

Green: Immediate Fallout Zone (industrialization falls out into these nations, after every impact, there is fallout)

Turquoise: Scattered Fallout Zone (After Every impact there is fallout, and this fallout gets to its destination longer and further, and with less stuff, so longer to industrialize)

Blue: Catalyst Zone (the Impact(and its Fallout) acts like a catalyst here and initiates industrialization here)

Indigo: Fumble Zone (Industrialization just accidentally “fumbles” into the hands of these nations)

and here's my map proposalLxCaucassus 02:25, October 17, 2011 (UTC)



Vietnam is set to conquer a goodly portion of Persia in a war. Wouldn't that affect Vietnam's industrialization at all?

Yank 02:36, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

First, I'd like to say that I am grateful for having a good chunk of my territory in the Orange zone. I'd just like to request that the coast of China be more industrial. With the bout of colonialism and the massive amount of ship building that went on during and a bit after the later days of the Ming Dynasty, these cities would be a bit more populated and productive than they were OTL. Other than this, I have no complaints. CrimsonAssassin 03:33, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

This map is a bit outdated.Hungary annexed Galicia, and now has a land border with Lithuania.Thus shouldn't affect my industrialization?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:29, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

It would make sense if Sweden was red as I own the area around OTL St Petersburg.Scandinator


 * you're not getting my point: industrialization starts in the capital, then spreads to all of Russia, Initiating the revolution, then Neighboring naitons, like sweden, all "Intercept" the Industrialization in 1750. Its only light industrialization then, a bit more than venice, except with more machinery. IN OTL Industrialization stayed in england for pretty much the first 50-75 years. Itl go to Lithuania and Livonia because well, they're in personal union and like an extention to russia.LxCaucassus 00:24, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

How would having a nation be half-industrialized (like Russia and China at certain points) affect them? Do they get half the benefits of whatever step they are on, or what? LurkerLordB 21:31, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

@Crimson. It is up to you if you want to industrialize more along the coast than inland. Like you can industrialize Canton, Shanghai, and Amoy, but you probably won't have as many resources to use in the steppe. Use your best judgement.

@LxCaucassus. I am planning to not overcomplicate this. While your ideas are there, it is more relevant when a country can industrialize than how. This is just a matter of keeping plausibility.

@Scandinator/@Lxcaucassus. I'll make a compromise. Estonia can industrialize at the same time as red. But the rest of Sweden will industrialize with the orange.

@Yankovic270/@Collie Kaltenbrunner. The map is just a guideline. If the borders happen to change, it will affect how quickly you industrialize.

@LurkerLordB. Let's keep it at that you get the benefit one step before the colony. So if you have an orange country and a yellow colony, you get the benefits of the orangeness for that colony. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:44, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea. Western China saw a lot of activity military-wise along the Russian border when tensions with them were high. When tensions with Russia lowered and deals were made, the military members probabally stayed in the area. Eastern China saw tons activity because of said ship building. I'm thinking for plausibilities' sake. Is it okay to do both or something? CrimsonAssassin 01:42, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

The money has to come from somewhere. Looking at most industrial patterns in China today, I would guess the industrialization would start in East China, but of course it would have to be brought over via trade routes with Russia. So if you want to weakly industrialize in the west with orange, strongly industrialize on the coast with orange, and industrialize the rest of the country with yellow or later I'm fine with that. Just know the main concern here is budget and transportation. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:51, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I believe Sweden would be able to industrialize at the same pace as Russia as Finland is within 100km of St Petersburg and the people would easily send the info to Sweden. I propose Sweden, Finland, Estonia are red and Norway, Denmark, Doitmania are orange Scandinator

Persian War
I've created this section for the algorithm for the upcoming Persian War.

Yank 02:39, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Time for Colonial Expansion to pick up
http://thebrightestman.wikispaces.com/file/view/European_Empires_1700.gif/36083069/European_Empires_1700.gif

From this map, you can see how big the European empires were in 1700. All of them are huge compared to the current colonial empires that exist in this game. Should expansion be increased somewhat? (perhaps after 1700, if you want a nice round number) And before people say that it will increase with industrialization, note that none of the nations with empires on that map were industrialized yet (Britain was half a century later). LurkerLordB 02:27, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

The map is a little deceiving. There are many different types of colonies. It is clear that most of the inland areas on the map weren't settled at all by Europeans. For example, Zimbabwe did not have any Portuguese settlements, but they did have suzerainty over the Mwanamutapa kingdom. The intensive settlements, that are reflected by countries that still speak European languages like Latin America, South Africa, Quebec, and the United States, are the type of colony that exists mostly in Principia Moderni. Some countries have gained suzerainty over other countries, like China and Central America, Hanthawaddy and parts of Australia/Australasia, and others.

While you do have a point, just understand that for now we assume the maps are drawn differently. The Principia Moderni map is a little bit more precise and less Eurocentric, as is clearly and purposefully the case with the map you have shown, because the map intended to show European empires rather than a holistic map of the world.

In 1700 or 1716 (the halfway point of the game) I will permit players to make large claims. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:47, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Issues with the new Map
I have a problem with the new map made for 1690. In 1686 I quite explicitly state that Vietnam takes control of Joseon's Asian colonies after they went back to being the world's "Hermit Kingdom". And later in the same turn the Chinese buy Hawaii to provide a convienient half-way point to California. Are we trying to keep Joseon's Empire in stasis (no matter how imblausible that is), or are we going to understand that the status quo doesn't matter as much when the user PitaKang has definitively left the picture.

Yank 18:41, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Also, I established a colony on the Flaklands at 1689 --Galaguerra1 21:18, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian Banned
Since Venice's user, Kunarian, has been blocked for a month (and since he is avoiding the block by using anonymous IPs, he'll probably be blocked for longer), should Venice be rendered inactive now, as it is obvious he will be missing far more than the 1 week of inactivity? Also, shouldn't we stop him from editting this page anonymously, as that would just be awarding him for circumnavigating a ban, instead of appealing it like normal? LurkerLordB 20:48, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Well considering he has unrightfully banned me and I have taken it up with the other Brass, then we should wait until they have dealt with it before you take any action considering that the only reason I am curcumventing it is because he has unrightfully banned me. You need to look over the situation and then look over thing that have happened in the past you'll see that Lordganon has done this before and there have been complaints. Its hardly awarding me also, its simply acting neutral. - Kunarian

Ah, I didn't know you were protesting the ban. However, I would recommend not blatantly violating the ban, as that makes it seem as if you are the one who is violating the rules. I do think a month seemed unfair for what you did, maybe a couple days, but not a whole month. LurkerLordB 21:04, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

The only problem is that I can't protest it on my actual account and he doesn't want me to even be allowed the chance for my case to be looked over so continually blocks every IP, the only reason I am anoning is because he isn't letting me protest it. My only worry is that the other Brass may not be active enough. - Kunarian

Actually, I've done nothing wrong. He very badly ignored a warning, and is now spouting off about it, getting the block lengthened each time. For what he's done now, I could ban him permanently if I wanted. Haven't yet, but it's getting tempting. Nor has there ever been "complaints," so I really don't know where he got that from. Lordganon 21:27, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not the block was just is not to be discussed on this page. In either case, Kunarian will serve his blocking. He has proved a fine member of the game so I don't see any reason to extend his time off the game or give him any of the consequences of banning. So we'll preserve Venice as is if and until Kunarian returns, unless it is clear that he will not return until the game is over. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:26, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, Kenny. On all counts, actually. Lordganon 22:28, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I assume that he won't be allowed to edit the game until his ban is up? LurkerLordB

Correct. There's no point to it, otherwise. Lordganon 22:43, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian, I know you may have some legit things to say, but what's done is done. Just take your punishment, because arguing only exasperates the situation. I'd also prefer people to not talk about this matter on the talk page. CrimsonAssassin 23:26, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Now, Kunarian had someone edit this page for him. Should this be allowed? (I am using this talk page as it directly affects this game, and this game only) LurkerLordB 22:19, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Simply put, that's an attempt to go around the block. It's been extended to that account. Lordganon 08:17, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Persia
I have officially signed up for this game and I am playing as Persia. I just want to remind you, nothing else more.

RandomWriterGuy 22:44, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam currently has some dispute with Persia, and is about to attack. You should probably find out the cause of the tension and seek to resolve it before you are conquered. Welcome to the game! LurkerLordB 22:50, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam, What Is It
(This is for the player of Vietnam ONLY)

Vietnam, what is it? LukerLordB said about some grievances to me. Tell me it.

RandomWriterGuy 23:01, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Well this stinks. I had planned on conquering Persia. The first time Kunarian doesn't interfer with with me i find out Persia is occupied. This development is really pissing me off. Yank 03:18, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still attacking Persia. I've invested too much time and money to simply call it off, especially after the aborted Vietnamese-Irish War. Yank 03:24, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Be nice. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:30, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I've calmed down somewhat. I just think it's kind of infuriating the way that every time I make such a big effort to win a war, something goes wrong. First Kunarian intervenes to save a country seemingly without an alliance or anything in the way to justify the intervention, and now the nation I plan on attacking has become played. It's like somethng is trying to thwart my every move. How long is Kunarian being banned for?

How about you hit the Mamluks???Scandinator

I could attack the Mamluks, or I can attack the Irish while Kunarian is still banned. That's why I asked how long he is banned for. Is he only banned a few days, or is he really banned a whole month?

I don't know but you will be supported by Sweden :D Scandinator

Second Algerian War
I need somebody to make the algorithm for this conflict. I'm supported by Burgundy, Venice (confirmed before the ban of Kunarian), Milan, Naples and the Papal States (I think). --Galaguerra1 02:26, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Naples and the Papal states are with you. LurkerLordB 02:28, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

This is my first algorithm as Minister of War Scandinator

France
Total: 62
 * Location (close to the location of the war): 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * France, Burgundy, Venice, Milan, Naples, Papal States, Doitmania, Sweden, Estonia, Denmark: 24
 * Motive (religious): 7
 * Population (10,000,000 to 100,000,000): 8
 * Military Expansion: 8
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 1
 * UTC time: 18:19
 * Edit count: 166
 * (166/72)*pi=724.3 1 1%
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Ziyyanids
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total: 43
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Ziyyanids: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (100,000 to 1,000,000): 6
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 9
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Ruled area for 150+ years: -5

Result
To be redetermined, but French Victory. (62/(62+43)*2)-1= 18.095% of Algerian territory.

Discussion
The war is being fought on Ziyyanid territory.so both countries not ruling said area is impossible.even if it was on the french colony, still some country has to rule the area, The motive is definitely religious.

Very good (because I win (?)). So, Burgundy will receive the half of the whole algerian territory...I annex Algeria or Can I make it a vassal? --Galaguerra1 16:46, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * It will be part of your colony, but if you want, you can turn your just-conquered part and your already-owned colony into a vassal.it still will count for colonial expansion anyway.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:38, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Naples and the Papal States just pulled out of the war because their king was assassinated by the Hafsids and they must concentrate all forces on attacking them. LurkerLordB 21:18, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Now I have the Commonwealth on my side! ^^ --Galaguerra1 17:14, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Naples
Total: 60
 * Location (close to the location of the war): 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Naples, Papal States, Sweden, Denmark, Doimaina, Estonia: 18
 * Motive (religious): 7
 * Population (1,000,000 to 10,000,000): 7
 * Military Expansion: 10
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 4
 * UTC time: 21:17
 * Edit count: 783
 * (783/14)*pi=175.70 4 7
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Hafsids
Total: 34
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Hafsids: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (100,000 to 1,000,000): 6
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 5
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Ruled area for 150+ years: -5

Result
Crushing Napolitian victory. Naples can annex (60/(60+34)*2)-1= 27.65% of Hafsid territory.

Discussion
I am still confused how to get that second number for the chance thing. Naples wins either way, but it may determine whether or not it is high enough for the gove to be overthrown of Hafsids. Also, I thought that somewhere someone said that colonial expansion didn't count as expansion on the algorithm, but if it does, then I get -10 I believe. I still win though, but more narrowly. The Hafsid chance was generated off of this website, www.random.com I think. LurkerLordB 21:59, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

i think that the following number should be counted if the hundredth is zero.recalculating, you got roughly 27% of Hafsid territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:53, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

You did well for a first algorithm. Colonial expansion does not count and you overestimated you population. OTL Italy today only has 46 million. You would have around 6 to 8 million at most. Scandinator

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. LurkerLordB 01:43, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

The Hafsid total is 34, in fact.So, at best, you conquered only 24% of Hafsid territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:09, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, how did I miss that...Scandinator

I added the new numbers from Sweden and all joining, to take 27% of the territory. If it is alright with Scandinator, I won't give you any territory right now, but one I manage to topple the Hafisd government it can be divided, OK? Of course, if anyone else would like to join in the war, they would be welcome to do so. LurkerLordB 22:55, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Persia
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total: 53
 * Location (next to the location of the war): 4
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Persia, Sweden, Denmark, Doimaina, Estonia: 15
 * Motive (political): 5
 * Population (10,000,000 to 100,000,000): 8
 * Military Expansion: 1
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 9
 * UTC time: 22:23
 * Edit count: 140
 * (140/24)*pi=1832.5 9 57%
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Kashmir
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total: 30
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Kashmir: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (100,000 to 1,000,000): 6
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance (random.org): 1
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Result
Persian victory. Persia can annex (53/(53+30)*2)-1= 27.711% of Kashmiri territory.

Discussion
Fight them one more time and you will win. Scandinator

Vietnamese-Keltic Union War Part Deux
This section is for the previously cancelled Vietnamese-Irish War. With Kunarian out of the way I can finally do what I wanted to do before he meddled in my business.

Yank 16:35, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Why is the algorithm only half done? I want to know how much territory I am going to gain, and wether I'm going to be able to take over Ireland by the time 1695 rolls around.

You should take Ireland before Kunarian's return, if you wan not problems with Venice. Also, add Algeria, my vassal, to the algorithm. Sctoland became independent a couple of turns before... So.... it will afect the algorithm, or Scotland is again part of the KU? --Galaguerra1 01:49, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam
Total: 68 (so far)
 * Location (other side of the world): 1
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Vietnam, Sweden, Denmark, Doimaina, Estonia, France, Algeria, AGC: 24
 * Motive (religious): 7
 * Population (10,000,000 to 100,000,000): 8
 * Military Expansion: 15
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 2
 * UTC time: 16:57
 * Edit count: 4089
 * (4089/210)*pi=6117.1 2 969%
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Ireland
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total: 31
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Ireland: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (1,000,000 to 10,000,000): 7
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 1
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said countryhas ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Result
Vietmanese victory. Vietnam annexes (68/(68+31)*2)-1= 37.37% of Ireland

Discussion
Sweden wishes to keep two bits of Ireland: OTL Northern Ireland + Donegal and the counties of Cork, Limmerick and Kerry Scandinator\

I would like to purchase your territory in Ireland for a very hefty sum. I had allready annexed enough to pretty much take over all of Ireland. I will recognize your claim to Scotland in exchange for sole ownership of Ireland. I'll do (almost) whatever you want in exchange for the territory.

Yank 14:42, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that Sweden is allowed it's own war with Ireland when they are allready listed at participating in my Irish War?

Yank 14:47, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Swedo-Irish War
Sweden

Total: 66 (so far)
 * Location (near the location of the war): 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Vietnam, Sweden, Denmark, Doimaina, Estonia, France, Algeria, AGC: 24
 * Motive (social): 6
 * Population (1,000,000 to 10,000,000): 7
 * Military Expansion: 9
 * Expansion : -2
 * Chance: 8
 * UTC time: 20:46
 * Edit count: 562
 * (562/48)*pi=3678.2 8 13%
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Ireland
Total: 30
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Ireland: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (1,000,000 to 10,000,000): 7
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said countryhas ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Result
Swedish victory. Sweden annexes (66/(66+30)*2)-1= 37.5% of Ireland

Swedo-Scotish War
Sweden

Total: 54
 * Location (near the location of the war): 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Sweden, Denmark, Doimaina, Estonia: 12
 * Motive (social): 6
 * Population (1,000,000 to 10,000,000): 7
 * Military Expansion: 9
 * Expansion : -2
 * Chance: 8
 * UTC time: 20:46
 * Edit count: 562
 * (562/48)*pi=3678.2 8 13%
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said country does not rule said area: 0

Scotland
Total: 31
 * Location (at the war): 5
 * Scotland: 3
 * Motive (life or death): 10
 * Population (100,000 to 1,000,000): 6
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Expansion : 0
 * Chance: 2
 * Participating in the war: 10
 * Said countryhas ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Result
Swedish victory. Sweden annexes (54/(54+31)*2)-1= 27.05% of Scotland