Talk:North Pennsylvania (1983: Doomsday)

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Police State
I highly doubt that popular mayor Louis Tullio would have taken on the role of dictator as to demand the shooting on sight of petty theft and vandalism. Furthermore, I don't think that state police (who would have been under authority of now-dead administrators in Harrisburg any way) would obey such harsh orders. An authority structure based on the major of a single city over several counties is questionable; though the recently elected, an so-far untested, county executive Judith Lynch probably would have been less likely than long-time major Tullio to mount such an effort.

In my opinion, order could surely have been maintained with less violent actions. If the authorities had been so hard-nosed, I doubt if they would have been able to remain "in power" for long any way. A "state"-wide populace of a half-million, or more, could not be corralled into such subservient mass of humanity - even a willing army of gun-toting, and trigger-happy, police. --SouthWriter 16:02, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Cars
Just to clarify where are the resources coming from for these 1500 cars produced every year? --GOPZACK 17:00, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Here is your answer:

Steel mines are in somewhat of an abundance in Pennsylvania, so that should clarify some of it.

Glass for windshields and spotlights is imported from Toledo.

Lubricants, oils, and gasoline are found in hundreds of gas pools across Pennsylvania. Arstarpool 17:06, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * First, "steel mines" do not exist. Steel mills do, but what we need are "iron ore mines" which are not that abundant in the area. On the far shores on Lake Superior, on the other hand, you can find a lot of iron ore. We can assume trade with Superior would facilitate the steel industry in Pennsylvania. Also, you have to consider coal mines to provide the best source of carbon for most steels. Other minerals, especially metals, need to be available for many of the grades of steel produced in the mills.


 * Also, "gas pools" do not exis t!! I took the liberty of changing that to "oil fields" in the article. "Natural gas" is also very abundant, but that is not the same thing as "gas" in the sense used here. Gasoline and diesel have to be refined from crude oil, of which the nation has to be the best source east of the Mississippi. There are also refineries in the NW corner of the state, so fuel oils should not be a problem. SouthWriter 17:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Abundant or not, they exist in the NW corner of the state. You're idea with Superior is good, but remember they are in a full-blown war right now and most metals are prolly going to war efforts. I'm just going to shrink the size down to "1,500 cars have been produced from the factory". Arstarpool 18:16, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * My first reading I missed what you were referring to. You are saying that there is iron ore for the mining in amongst the oil and natural gas. This is good, I couldn't find reference to them in my short search, but it still will be necessary to go to other sources for materials needed to keep the steel mills going. In house materials would probably last only for a short while.


 * My point was is are no such thing as a "gas pool." I even looked it up -- nada. It is not a term that is used for natural gas even. "Gas" is gasoline, and it does not exist in "pools," because it would evaporate much too fast and endanger all life within the fumes due to both affixiation and cumbustion danger. What do exist are "oil fields," or better, "oil deposits." Most of these have been found already and are actively being drilled. Your section of Pennsylvania was the birthplace of the oil industry and still has producing wells. Sorry, I misread your reference to the iron ore deposits.


 * Actually though, I don't think "full-blown war" is accurate for the state of affairs between Superior and Canada. The Republic is backing the breakaway nation, but not at the expense of international relations. They would probably not even have the facilities to build vehicles of their own. Their best bet is to provide the raw materials to those nations that are both friendly to them and willing to build vehicles to replace the ones they wear out. SouthWriter 02:01, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ecology vs. Survival
I find it a little odd that the government would "ban" powered fishing boats from its harbors - even at a late date of 2006 - when fishing is a major source of food and income for so much of the population of the nation. At the same time, the "discovery" of gravel in the lake provides a source for foundation material for road repair. I would think that road repair would mostly be by the application of petroleum-based blacktop to the roads as they weathered. The dredging of the lake (rather than the wilderness strethching into the interior) for gravel makes NO ecological sense.

In fact, ecology probably would be the last thing to be considered in a world that was fighting to survive. The "natural wildlife" would be considered "fair game" in the ongoing struggle up until recent times, at least. The harvesting of the Great Lakes would be far more important than their use for transportation, though transport of goods to and from Superior and Toledo would definitely be via the lakes. SouthWriter 17:06, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How 'bout now? Basically I "restricted" rather than banned in order to keep local fishing stocks alive and healthy. Arstarpool 18:23, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oil Industry Profits
Your comment about the "very, very large profits" that Pennzoil and Quaker State would make is off base. Market forces in the post-apocolyptic age would be vastly different. This is especially true for the case of a self-sufficient nation-state using most of its oil for its own survival. The abundance of the commodity, and the efficiency of its refineries, would lower the price of most of the oil to such an extent that the "Big Oil" bosses would probably be working for the state. As the capacity to actually ship the oil and the refined fuels to other markets increased, then the profits would increase, but only as far as the market would allow.

Most independent nations would have learned to utilize what resources they had, and by the time trade agreements were made with other nations, the demand would have lowered, keeping pricing to a reasonable point. By 2000, I suppose, profits of surviving or new oil companies would begin to increase, but not nearly to the point they are in OTL (which, by the way, are not that high compared to many less essential commodities). SouthWriter 17:59, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You will have to delete Pennzoil from the text. The company had been moved to Houston, Texas, in the 1970's. From what I can tell, though, Quaker State was still operating as such in the state from which it took its name. SouthWriter 14:33, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Oil Refineries
Good news! With all that oil, you also have two refineries. You need to play up the following locations -
 * Bradford Refinery (American Refining Group), Bradford 10,000 bbl/d (1,600 m3/d)
 * Warren Refinery, United Refining Company, Warren 70,000 bbl/d (11,000 m3/d)

Together these two refineries produce 80,000 barrels per day. That is 17,600 m3/d (17,600,000 liters!). That is

4,643,799 ½ gallons, or enough fuel oil to fill 23,219 200-gallon fuel tanks PER DAY! I think the million or so people of the nation are safe in their oil furnaced homes in the winter (assuming the pumps are running). Vehicles powered by diesel and gasoline would have enough -- 232,190 20-gallon tanks PER DAY. That's one car for each family of four. The trucks and trains, of course, use a lot more fuel, as would the power plants and factories. But I think there is plenty to go around -- as long as the oil wells don't run dry.

With trade agreements, you could have quite some leverage with the other nation-states of the region. SouthWriter 16:17, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, South! Yet another good discovery by you :-)


 * Actually I was thinking the trains could run on steam or coal, so as not to use up all the precious gas there, and most factories could run on some other natural gas, but whatever is realistic I will try to do. Arstarpool 16:28, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Again, you have to have a source for the coal. You would have to trade with the Virginia Republic or some other place for the coal to run steam engines. Besides, it is the diesel trains that are already running. Steam engines are a thing of the past and conversion is not an easy thing to do. Factories might very well be running on natural gas -- worth looking into. SouthWriter 16:58, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

London had to make due with what they had and started making Biodiesel for use in generators and their own diesel engines. By the time the two nations meet, their processing will have advanced and they could start selling biodiesel for use in the diesel locomotives.Oerwinde 08:48, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Other cities
What happened to the towns of Erie County. Union City, though a lot smaller than Meadville, was closer and could have absorbed many of the refugees before they got to the larger town. As people sought refuge, they would first go to nearby towns. They would only go further when those towns proved hazzardous. The radiation from Erie would mostly have gone to the north, according to the prevailing winds of the area. The area of West Pennsylvania would have probably had to contend more with the radiation and refugees from the Pittsburgh area. This also goes for Oil City and Warren, each even further away than Meadville.

I recommend Google Earth (or Mapquest if you must) to estimate the particular influx of refugees into the area. Writing out Erie is going to be a pain, and a port city is a must, but this project is definitely doable. Don't worry about rushing it to canonization, though. Just enjoy it. It's a good addition to the Great Lakes community. SouthWriter 17:09, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I beg of you, please help me with this. I can only log on for like 30 minutes a day and even then I am rushed. Arstarpool 21:40, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, Alex. I think I'll spread the folks abandoning Erie along the coast first, and then down into the county. The smaller towns will be overwhelmed, of course. So the bigger towns you mentioned will be the seat of the new government. I'm working on the Caribbean this evening, though, and it may be a few days before I can get much done on West Pennsylvania. SouthWriter 01:00, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is "Lake Erie City" a new city built from the ruins of the abandoned city of Erie? Or perhaps Lake City renamed after receiving the bulk of the refugees? SouthWriter 01:45, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

A new city on the "little Penninsula" on Lake Erie that incorporates the extreme north of former city of Erie. Arstarpool 02:23, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * It might work as a refugee camp, but why a new city. If the city of Erie had to be abandoned due to a hit in its southside region, I'd think that utilizing existing cities would be a lot more efficient. I'd say build up Lake City instead. It's a safe distance (and down wind) and on the coast rather than inland as the new capital at Warren is. I can see the smaller city accommodating the refugees while co-oprating with the government that had escaped to Warren (in good time) to exploit the resources available by way of Lake Erie. SouthWriter 02:51, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Arstar that plan just might work! Here's a map I put together (Hopefully it posts, this wretched internet on the airplane is awful) I centered a 650kt strike over the Erie International Airport (the most likely target in my mind). Anyway the one thing that may complicate things is that pesky fallout. Hope this helps! --GOPZACK 02:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC) Screen_shot_2010-08-21_at_10.49.05_PM.png


 * Oh there is this handy box at the bottom with some more info




 * Good software. Similar to that which I usually use. If the airport was the target, then the eastern side of town would indeed be free to be salvaged as the new port. The blast would force most of the refugees east and south, cutting off the westernmost towns, like


 * Screen_shot_2010-08-21_at_10.56.14_PM.png


 * Lake City, from the bulk of the survivors of Erie. But I'm still not sure this should be the "largest" city of the state. SouthWriter 03:20, August 22, 2010 (UTC)



Forgiveness Policy?
Sounds like a Soviet reeducation camp to me. I don't see it being that effective. The only way most of the raiders will go away is by force I'm afraid. --GOPZACK 03:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Pothier indeed it is a reeducation camp. It will be sponsored by the Amish and the other minor Penn. Dutch groups that are all about helping people and this would be a great opportunity to employ these former thugs and raiders. While many would decline, many who are tired of the "shoot, stab, rape" life would opt in for the program and they would be trained in St. Marys, a city which was once swarming with raiders itself can redeem itself under North Penn control and with help of the Amish and Penn Dutch it can become a potential site for new business. While in the reeducation camps they will learn (or re-learn) the basics of society, laws, and ethics. They will also receive job training and schooling if possible, and religious intervention for those who are deemed "totally f****d". So out of a state that might have 15,000 raiders left they have already redeemed around 500 and counting. Virginia used similar methods but more brutal ones. Arstarpool 03:48, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind it will be in Clarion. Arstarpool 04:23, September 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah seems someone has been looking at my facebook page. St. Mar's is occupied by a joint force from Oil City & State College so anything done there will have to be done with the consent of State College. Also North Pennsylvania (If that name sticks & if it is graduated) will be a much weaker state then your original proposal so it will be cheaper and easier to kill the raiders, as sad as that is to say. --GOPZACK 15:44, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Weaker it will be, but not as much as you think. There is still oil, minerals, and wood mills and industry and oil refineries, all in other cities.
 * Weaker it will be, but not as much as you think. There is still oil, minerals, and wood mills and industry and oil refineries, all in other cities.

Other Objections
Before I make the main page long with peoples objections I would like you to post your objections here. Please do not make it mega long just list what you want changed and I will most likely change it. Arstarpool 20:17, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

I still think London would have gotten to Norfolk county first now that most of Eris was destroyed or abandoned. They wouldn't have the resources to annex that area. --GOPZACK 20:29, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Is that it? Really, is that it? There's no more objections? Arstarpool 22:28, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ok... heres a few more


 * Why would they offer annexation to Ithaca ind Binghamton? That makes no sense at all


 * The Line "Pennsylvania also contacted the Commonwealth of Kentucky via Virginia in 2002. The two nations had a lot in common, as both had retained their statehood names and had both been spared attacks on important locations." is first of all incorrect it implies Erie was spared an attack and secondly is a bitter shot at the survival of Fort Knox


 * Line "In 2007, it was a founding member of the United Communities along with Toledo and London-Ontario. St Marys was chosen as a capital, but eventually it was decided that Niagara Falls would be the perfect capital since it is a Canadian-American city and would not favor Canadians or Americans." is flawed because the Untied Communities is not canon yet and why would they consider a destroyed town that was once a raider hub as the capital?


 * What kind of planes does North Pennsylvania fly? Do they have propellers or jet engines? Where/how do they refine the jet fuel?


 * Who is buying the cars they are making?


 * Also the most liberal areas of North Pennsylvania were destroyed when Erie was attack so the GOP would have more of a presence.
 * Finally you do realize that you have to wait a bit before graduating it after asking "Any objections"? Also you have to address these objections, don't you know? --GOPZACK 22:41, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

That's it for now. --GOPZACK 22:39, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, let me answer the questions:

1. Deleted

2. Deleted.

3. Changed to make more sense.

4. Whatever was left over in airports that wasn't lost to EMP's. Those that could be repaired were repaired with help from Toledo and once the Wesleyville industry was opened back up there were even more planes repaired. There are also two oil refineries in the nation plus lots of gasoline so I guess making jet fuel wouldn't be impossible.

6. That's a non-issue. You know how things were back then with everyone voting back then for Reagan?

7. I do know that.

8. Norfolk County, probably the largest issue, well this was written in during the first drafts of the article and London came a bit after. If London had wanted it, they should have come before Pennsylvania and taken it when QSS and QAA is in the way. Pennsylvania cooperated with Toledo a lot early on and they did a check on Norfolk and it wasn't doing so well. While London was repairing the area around Aylmer, Norfolk became depopulated when its citizens decided to move to London territory, further worsening the conditions in the area. Eventually the citizens of Norfolk were offered a referendum to join either Toledo, Penn, or remain independent and they chose Pennsylvania due to the proximity and that Pennsylvania was more rural and had a wider food base they chose Pennsylvania, unlike Toledo and London, which had extreme food shortages (it says it right in the article). While I admit that this annexation occurred shortly after London expanded remember that the London article is not yet filled in, it makes no mention of claiming or controlling Norfolk.

Guys tell me if there are any more problems because I would like this article to be pretty plausible when I ask to get it graduated. Arstarpool 23:11, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

You didn't answer the point about cars.

...the part about Norfolk in the article makes no sense - it is contradictory. Given those choices, they'd have joined London before this state.

It would be more likely to have propeller planes in the region survive. And it makes it sound better, given the unknowns with being able to make jet fuel or not.

Lordganon 00:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the cars are mainly bought with Toledo who helps make the cars with their manufacturing of glass.

Read it now. Fixed. Guys I am going to play the QSS and QAA card and if London-Ontario wants to start a border dispute we can take it to the brass. Norfolk has pretty much been in this article since it was created.

Okay, propeller planes are cool. Arstarpool 00:47, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Guys I don't want to sound repetetive but I am basically going to keep on asking about objections until all the major and moderate ones are answered. So any other objections? Arstarpool 00:47, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

The QSS & QAA card? You do realize that London is canon and North Pennsylvania never has? London has precedent right now. Besides that its simply not possible with Erie for the most part out of the picture. --GOPZACK 00:52, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

North Pennsylvania came first. You stated on the California-Sierra dispute that its whatever article was made first has precedent and now you are stating its the canon that comes first? This whole time London should not have been graduated if that is the case. Arstarpool 01:15, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Somehow you have overlooked the first sentence of this the entire time:

" By a narrow margin, Norfolk County became a Pennsylvanian protectorate, but they promised to return control to Canada if they ever came into contact with them. They rejected joining London-Ontario since the state was focusing on repairing its own lands. They later came into direct contact with of London-Ontario after Norfolk-Ontario requested to open trade relations. London accepted. This was a major event in Pennsylvania since they could now use Norfolk County, Ontario as an international trade hub across Lake Erie."

Zack, its a protectorate! It is not fully part of the nation, but receives aid from Penn and such. If they want to pursue trade relations with London they can do so, but they are part of the North Pennsylvania article. They don't need Erie, they just need access to Lake Erie in general. Even then as a protectorate they don't need 24/7/365 access to the rest of Pennsylvania. Arstarpool 01:15, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * When the vote (not an "ultimatum") gives only a 40% plurality, there should at least be another vote. Personally, I don't think that a struggling American state government, less than seven years after major disaster, would be seeking to expand into Canada. It is too ambitious of a project. If anything they would be treking further into the interior of Pennsylvania itself to find resources. especially after the devesatating winter of 1986. SouthWriter 04:17, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I reached my breaking point. You guys are right, its implausible, but I have decided to let pursue its own independent destiny apart from London and North Penn. However Pennsylvania's eyes are not off of Ontario, believe me, if Superior could do it I'm sure that Pennsylvania could do it albeit on a much smaller scale. Arstarpool 04:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I reached my breaking point. You guys are right, its implausible, but I have decided to let pursue its own independent destiny apart from London and North Penn. However Pennsylvania's eyes are not off of Ontario, believe me, if Superior could do it I'm sure that Pennsylvania could do it albeit on a much smaller scale. Arstarpool 04:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)