Alternative History talk:TSPTF

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Owen
What about getting a vote of the TSPTF members? and try and find one that'll vote to keep Owen on this Wiki?--Smoggy80 18:20, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I vote to block him - For going against canon numerous times, despite repeated warnings!--Smoggy80 18:20, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I vote to block him - For bizarre behavior, going against canon, and causing unrest throughout the community! I am in favor of a permanent ban in fact! --Arstar 18:36, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I vote to block him- For all the reasons noted above. --Zack 18:40, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * While his antics can be humorous, all the stuff he does isn't contributing at all. His continuing to do articles that repeatedly he is told can't exist I would categorize a spam and therefore I vote to block him as well.Oerwinde 21:36, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I vote to leave him to his antics. His articles are frivolous, his grammar is atrocious, but he is neither a troll nor a smammer. It is obvious from his attempts at articles and his comments on talk pages that he is "intellectually challenged." He is managable without blocking him. SouthWriter 16:04, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think South has a point. He does seem a bit, um, challenged when you think about it. But at the same time sometimes I think he is just a troll who takes pleasure in his awful grammar and ruining and distracting us from our work. What to do? Unblock him? Or keep him where he is? Arstar 01:49, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * What's done is done. A precedent has been set; if you undo the "permaban", then you not just allow Owen back in, but you also send the message that a permanent ban can be undone. Is that the message you want to send Owen?BrianD 02:07, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have little say in his ban, as I only have rollback rights and no banning powers so I could not undo his ban even if I wanted to. But if he does have some sort of condition than that changes it. Arstar 03:00, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * If we did agree that we had made a mistake, there'd be no shame in undoing it. People make mistakes. But I support the ban. It wasn't his spelling or his frivolousness: it was his constant lying about things. See above, where he tried to convince everyone that he was the original creator of Doomsday. I admit that the lies were obvious enough to hint at some kind of handicap, but let's face it. It's not a hard lesson to learn not to lie. He was banned several times for trying to pull ruses like that, but he didn't take the hint. Benkarnell 03:09, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to clarify my earlier comment. Given the seriousness of Owen's actions, a precedent has been set (I don't know of anyone else who's been permanently banned). If you unban him, you basically say that a permanent ban can be undone at any time and make it useless as a tool. I don't know that Owen is "challenged"; if he is, that should be taken into consideration, but it still wouldn't overrule his ban because, as Ben said, it's not a hard lesson to learn not to lie. --BrianD 03:19, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if Owen is challenged, there is the argument that someone with a mental handicapped should not be treated any differently from someone without one. Certainly we should have patience, but they should not be given special treatment for breaking the rules. The problem is Owen has been given special treatment since he got here because we always thought he did have a mental handicap. I support the ban. Owen's alleged handicap is not serious enough that he cannot learn right from wrong. Whether its lying or stealing others work, there comes a point where we need to use our blocking power. Mitro 13:24, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact is that he received several short bans for the same behavior. This was in my opinion the way bans are supposed to work. Benkarnell 13:43, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

So what if Owen is mentally handicapped in some way? he should be treated exactly like anyone who does not have a handicap, why should he get special treatment? plus how do we know that he actually is handicapped and just badly educated, generally messing around or just doing it to be annoying?

Can we just not lay this all to rest, have a simple democratic majority vote of TSPTF members of wether or not Owen stays or goes? after all we are the ones entrusted with some powers (however small) over this Wiki, shouldn't we have some democratic powers?--Smoggy80 16:06, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, Smoggy, I am just one vote. And I didn't say he was "mentally" challenged - only "intellectually" so. According to what I read (I think on Wikipedia, maybe on a news link), there is a large segment of the population in his area that are under-educated. And, consequently, unemployed. Owen has nothing to do, so he's online. I'm not bothered by his antics, but his lying and stealing need to be addressed. Since he's the first to be permanently banned by an administrator on this wiki, if that is to be an option, so be it. A super majority of administrators should be enough. SouthWriter 16:47, October 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually User:Calthrina950 was the first to be banned for 1000 years. Mitro 17:41, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I thought the only reason there was all this discussion was the fact that banning him for life was a precedence? if its been done before why can't it be done again?--Smoggy80 19:15, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with SouthWriter a 3/4 majority is what should be in place for 1000 year bans. We should, just to confirm and be fair hold a quick vote here amongst us TSPTF members as to whether the permaban should be upheld. Zack 19:59, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Hamster1983 is Owen's newest account. Guys, should we ban this account to? Arstar 21:14, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Not yet, but let me know if it does anything untoward. --Zack 21:18, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like Zack's idea but I just wanted to say a few more things in regards to it. I think its fair to say that all bans less than permanent are at the discretion of the individual admin. They should only be second guessed if there is obvious bad behavior on the part of the admin. That being said any permabans will always immediately be put to a vote which would require a 3/4 vote to approve. Sounds like the start of our Block policy.
 * @Arstar, how do you know its Owen? [EDIT] Never mind it is Owen. I blocked that account as well since he is sockpuppetting. Plus now that I have looked at Wolfworld it is actually plagarized from this site http://www.wolfram.demon.co.uk/ah_wolfworld.html Mitro 21:22, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I saw this policy on Wookiepedia and I think we should adopt it due to the Owen block. Check out Alternative History:Equality. Mitro 21:52, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you Mitro. I think we should set up the equality rule as a replacement for NCNC and to set permanent guidelines for this wiki. Below I've set up a place for TSPTF members to vote confirming the Owen ban. For all major issues I think the 3/4 super majority vote should be in place. --Zack 22:51, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait why is the equality policy as substitute for NCNC? They both cover different things. One is how we deal with people with mental and physical handicaps. The other is used to prevent discussions over OTL politics and religion from turning into flame wars. They are both able to coexist. The conventions meanwhile act as a permanent guideline. Mitro 23:01, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

My apologies I thought it was "general" equality. --Zack 23:04, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Zack 22:51, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Supporters

It's regrettable that it's come to this, but I don't see any other choice here. BrianD 23:00, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

He's been warned enough times and just not learned his lesson from his short term bans, it's time for him to go--Smoggy80 15:21, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with everything said above.--Vladivostok 16:10, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Objectors

Owen's sockpuppets investigation
New user today: User:Hamster2010. Very similar to Hamster1983. Please keep an eye on this one, its likely an Owen sockpuppet. Mitro 20:22, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also keep a watch on User:Endoftime1983. He wrote an article for 1983: Doomsday that was later obsoleted. He has a similar writing style as Owen and Owen made some heavy edits to that article.
 * There is also a new user called User:Zh'xonRomulus‎. He should be watched as well because of Owen's Star Trek fascination. Mitro 21:16, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Keep an eye out for Owen sockpuppets. I recently prevented him from being able to leave anymore messages on his talk page, so he is likely to return to using sockpuppets again. Mitro 20:27, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok so Hamster2010 was another Owen clone. Mitro 02:53, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Owen taunted Mitro, and then asked me to reinstate him, failing to "sign" (he put his name in the text to Mitro) from the same anonymous source. SouthWriter 15:09, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Owen taunted Mitro, and then asked me to reinstate him, failing to "sign" (he put his name in the text to Mitro) from the same anonymous source. SouthWriter 15:09, October 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just want to point out to everyone that the comment that was left on Owen1983's user page abusing Mitro was NOT me!! by the spelling it was Owen USING my sign in. i dont think anyone with half a brain would have been fooled, but someone with half a brain may have written it--Smoggy80 16:55, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Smoggy, I knew it wasn't you. In fact Owen was not signing as you but actually suggesting you would be someone to replace me on the Brass. So take it as a compliment :-)
 * Also, I think Hamster2009 is an Owen puppet. Any objections? Mitro 18:46, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I object until there is any clear cut evidence such as gibberish posts or bizarre complaints calling for Owen to be unblocked. If/when that happens then by all means block him for a 1000 years. --Zack 19:18, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

As hamster1983 and hamster2010 are both his i would expect it will be--Smoggy80 19:10, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well Hamster2009 did start labeling several new articles with the deletion template saying the articles were not AH (despite the fact that they were). Mitro 20:25, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then block Hamster2009 for being a "troll". --Zack 20:28, October 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I blocked him for inappropriate username. With that name, if he wasn't a sockpuppet of Owen, he was somebody trolling by using a name that obviously sounded like an Owenclone. Benkarnell 03:04, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Found another Owen clone. He is calling himself Owen1984 now. You should see the nice message he left on my talk page. Mitro 22:10, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

As weird as this may sound, Mitro, that is not Owen. The language and format is just not him. He would have put a link in their somewhere to a random word and he would have written it in his signature "--" closing marks. That's either someone on this site trying to be funny or a new user who found out about Owen. Arstar 07:29, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Either that, or Owen has started to learn how the English language works much too late. Fegaxeyl 09:35, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting point Arstar. However Owen has shown that he knows how to use copy and paste. The first line of his rant sounds like him (he even mispelled dictator) but the rest could have been copied from somewhere else (God knows the internet is full of such things). That being said I won't rule out someone else being a troll, nevertheless he still gets blocked. Mitro 12:49, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not objecting to the ban. But how about the lack of his signature "--" (without a period followed by his username)? But then another sentence gives me another vibe, "In closing, mitro, I used to like you," (notice that the only word misspelled is your name, likely he added that to the sentence)? But on another note, when will he give up? Arstar 04:14, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not objecting to the ban. But how about the lack of his signature "--" (without a period followed by his username)? But then another sentence gives me another vibe, "In closing, mitro, I used to like you," (notice that the only word misspelled is your name, likely he added that to the sentence)? But on another note, when will he give up? Arstar 04:14, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Owens posting again on blogs (Arstar's blog), just as a anon wiki contributor at the mo, so everyone keep an eye out a new sockpuppet may be in the making--Smoggy80 19:25, November 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you Smoggy, I blocked the ip address. Mitro 19:43, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

So that means that Owen is finally gone? Good. The fellow (I wish to call him something worse, but I don't want to sink to his level) has been acting like a cockroach for far too long. Every time we moved against him he'd scurry away and pop up sometime later. Now his 1000-year long ban can finally take effect.

Yank 20:29, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably not Yank. Owen appears to have access to several ip addresses. The only thing we can hope for is that he continues to blatantly state who he is, so that we can block him. Eventually we will get all of them. Mitro 20:31, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep an eye on 86.179.253.54, it may be another Owen IP. Mitro 14:37, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Well I might just be jinxing myself and the wiki, but Owen appears to be gone. Whether we got all his ip addresses or else he just grew bored, I don't think we will be seeing him for sometime. Mitro 17:47, December 10, 2010 (UTC)BlackSky

{C}We've got another potential sock-puppet called "CommanderZeta" sounds Star Trekish like the Commander Data one he made. Plus there are some weird edits. Keep an eye on the account for now. --Zack 01:39, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm...well his edits do not seem that disruptive and his language is certainly better than Owen's. I will keep an eye him though. On that note, I have a feeling that Owen is going to become a mythical figure in this wiki. We are going to hear the words "Owen-like", "Owenish" and "he's another Owen". I can't wait until we get a newbie who asks us who Owen is? Mitro 21:53, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

I dont know much about this Owen, but I have been here long enough to know who he is: a troll that thinks that by attacking us over and over again he is achieving some thing; solution? We let him create his own Althstory wiki so that he can cuss, ban, and reject anyone who even enters the wiki while also trying to show the world his althistory work, which no one will see because of his shanagins. BlackSkyEmpire

Well I spoke too soon. 86.178.0.235 just left a message on Smoggy's page, signing his name as Owen1983. I gave him a 1000 year block. Mitro 17:01, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to make an executive decision as part of the Brass (other Brass can disagree with me if they feel I am wrong). I ask that no member of the TSPTF speak to Owen, that time has long passed. If you have the power, block him. Constables should report back if they find evidence of his presence, but they should also not speak to him. Mitro 16:06, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

LG blocked 212.219.142.33‎ for Owen like edits. After looking over his contributions (which go back a few months) I am in agreement that this is likely an Owen IP address. If there are no objections we can extend the ban to be permanent. Mitro 18:27, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

I am highly offended. :'(. I was just trying to give the Venusian Haven timeline new rescources. I is not Owen!! (note: punctuation mistake was deliberate) That was me on a different computer in a time when I did not have a user name. Imperium Guy 21:36, August 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * No objectionsOerwinde 18:30, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

I am concerned about User:The Republic of freedom. He seems to be very similar to Owen: he is English, bad spelling and grammar and is infatuated with 1983: Doomsday. Maybe I am overreacting, but please keep an eye on him. Mitro 14:27, February 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Benkarnell 14:49, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why the sigh? Mitro 15:13, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * You know. It just doesn't end with that guy. I'd say he can't take a hint, but there's no hinting about it. Over and over he's been told to leave and never come back. Benkarnell 04:47, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Due to Pita trolling Owen's talk page on the Alien Species Wiki, Owen has once again been active. He has already left two messages on my talk page. Keep an eye out for Owen-like edits by anons. Owen is still likely to sign as himself. Mitro 03:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

TSPTF Signature
{C}Just an idea so that its easier to notice us from the normal population. I'm going to make a prototype one here: Arstar 04:08, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to make one the signature coding is (NO SPACES) [ [ F i l e:180px-Tsptf.jpg | 25 px ] ] [ [ U s e r:USERNAMEGOESHERE]]

Is there any way to make a wiki code (like maybe 5 tildes) to make the signature easier? Better yet, perhaps a button only available for TSPTF members? SouthWriter 16:12, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

You should consult with Vegas, I think he did the 1983DD Badges for the site. If anyone is a pro on coding signatures on this wiki it should be him. But this signature is much easier than it looks. All you do is you click "more", then click "Preferences", then copy-past the signature coding above into the box that says "Signature". Check off the "Custom Signature" box and then save your preferences.

Better yet, why don't we have badges for each of the ranks, like the Brass holds a real flashy badge, the Leutenients a silver badge, the constables some other badge and the retired Officers Emeritus hold an "Honorary" badge? Just an idea, Arstar 20:33, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I can add a template to create the sig now. However adding wiki buttons is a lot harder and if its posible i will try. Images arn't rearly my thing though, i'l tell you when its done, I might have to create indivitual templates though--Vegas adict 20:39, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally, I prefer looking like just another user. People can look at my user page if they like. But I'd rather not proclaim I OUTRANK YOU every time I want to add some kind of (possibly inane) comment to a talk page.
 * Actually, the more I think about it the more I want to discourage anyone from putting rank into sigs. A signature like that seems like it would stifle debate. It adds a whole new dynamic to situations where rank is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who's an admin when you're just talking about alternate-history issues as opposed to wiki policy. Benkarnell 20:45, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said it was just an idea, so don't get all mad.However I have seen it done on several other wiki's. But your right it is kinda bragging. But I mentioned it because before some troll says something he shouldn't he'll see the insignia and see that there are active admins who can ban him at any moment. Arstar 20:50, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I sit next to a real life internet troll at work. They don't care about admins banning them. For them, getting banned is a sign of honor. My co-worker showed me his 6 different user names on a forum and also the conversation he had on another forum where is banned. Seeing the badge is just going to incite them more. Mitro 20:54, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay...that's kind of...yea. Should we scrap the badge sig then? Arstar 20:57, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay...that's kind of...yea. Should we scrap the badge sig then? Arstar 20:57, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay...that's kind of...yea. Should we scrap the badge sig then? Arstar 20:57, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to come off as mad - probably the capital letters were a bad idea :(. But in cases where rank does matter - trolls, for example - then I think you can say something like "Stop now - I'm an admin here." But the problem with putting the badges in the signature is that they show up everywhere. Maybe it would be appropriate to "flash a badge" when leaving warning messages on user pages? That can be done without a template, certainly. Like this. 180px-Tsptf.jpg Benkarnell 20:59, October 11, 2010 (UTC) [EDIT] On the other hand, Mitro has a point: trolls are only interested in causing trouble, so maybe the badges wouldn't be much of a deterrent. Benkarnell 20:59, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great idea! So when we go to leave a warning we click the "Custom Signature" box in the preferences section? Arstar 21:01, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going back to my "Arstarpool" signature then since having the badge sig in the box doesn't allow me to use my Arstar sig. &#91;&#91;File:180px-Tsptf.jpg&#124;25px&#93;&#93; &#91;&#91;User:Arstarpool&#124;Arstar&#93;&#93; 21:03, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going back to my "Arstarpool" signature then since having the badge sig in the box doesn't allow me to use my Arstar sig. &#91;&#91;File:180px-Tsptf.jpg&#124;25px&#93;&#93; &#91;&#91;User:Arstarpool&#124;Arstar&#93;&#93; 21:03, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going back to my "Arstarpool" signature then since having the badge sig in the box doesn't allow me to use my Arstar sig. &#91;&#91;File:180px-Tsptf.jpg&#124;25px&#93;&#93; &#91;&#91;User:Arstarpool&#124;Arstar&#93;&#93; 21:03, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever
I am little concerned about this TL. Though I realize the deletion policy says we don't delete article because they are offensive, I worry that this TL might cause some issues. Considering the creators previous edits, I'm sure that he is writing a white power wankfest. Mitro 14:11, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. It seems to be "Mr.r"'s baby, and he's been banned for adding ethnic stuff to things without permission before that was as close to offensive as this place should get.

Way I figure it, he's seeing how much he can get away with.

Lordganon 14:17, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well it still sets bad precedent to start deleting articles because some people find them offensive. Let's adopt a wait and see approach. If it looks like he is just trolling, than we will block him and delete this TL. Mitro 14:31, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks like something of a nonsense project: nothing really even written yet. What are the policies regarding outright racist/hateful projects? That is comepletely different from, say, that timeline a lot of people wanted to delete that portrayed Barack Obama as a communist dictator. The TL is much too short to have crossed the line yet, but I think the line certainly exists. Benkarnell 14:59, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mitro - wait and see, if he crosses the proverbial line then take appropriate action. --BrianD 16:57, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, if a Communist America can pass the muster, a hyper-conservative one could as well. I couldn't find the time line with Obama as as communist dictator (which would be interesting to persue, or at least read). However, there is a time line that presents a Socialist USA (Marx comes to America). I'd say that if Mr R has been banned for adding stuff without permission, it doesn't mean he should be banned for creating his own stuff. Segregation, as such, is the norm in the south in the "Two Americas" time line. And lest we forget, ethnic groups are self-segregated in societies all over the world today. Official segregation is also the law in other places.


 * The "line" that must be drawn in this wiki is any that overtly proclaims superiority of one ethnic group over another. This would be like a Nazi wiki that seeks to justify those views as good and wholesome. A "white power" wankfest, as Mitro puts it, probably should be avoided or even banned. A "separate but equal" treatise, on the other hand, would be fine.SouthWriter 17:30, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

I personally don't care if Obama is portrayed as Communist Dictator or a TL that has segregation in it. I don't think its a stretch to say all of us think segregation is evil & that President Obama is not a Communist dictator.

With that said South raises an interesting point there are a tone of anti-American, anti-conservative timelines floating about where Fox News is shutdown, George Bush is assassinated & so on. Nobody (and rightfully so) is calling for those TL's to be censored and deleted. So why such outrage when a crazy conservative TL comes along? If we agree that it is offensive then we don't have to contribute to it. We can ignore it and not make it a "featured timeline". I may very well be our bias showing seeing as must of us are left of center, but nevertheless we don't have to have an NPR style freak out and start blocking and banning people for their work. My issue with "Mr. R" was that he inserted gibberish & removed content from pages. --Zack 18:26, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * A dystopic "always-segregated USA" TL is absolutely acceptable, as are Nazi victory TLs, Communist World Revolution TLs, and, well, nuclear-holocaust TLs. Crossing the hypothetical line would be a TL that talks about how great the US would be if only the pesky black people were out of the way, or something like that.


 * The Obama TL is called "2009: Second American Revolution." A quick glance shows its overblown ludicrousness and lack of research (a 2009 PoD that results in a Soviet state in the USA), and on the side it offended a lot of people. But as I said then, "I do not believe we have a policy of deleting ATLs just for being really stupid." If we did, well, we'd have a mighty big deletion job on our hands. :)


 * Mr.r has made a couple of weird and disruptive edits to other people's projects without asking. But this new mini-project of his is in no way deserving of deletion. Nothing outright racist or hateful at all in its current state. Benkarnell 18:43, October 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Aye. But it's definitely something that should be watched. Lordganon 02:33, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Short Wiki break
Just to let everyone know i'm taking a two week (or so) wiki break due to tree felling season, i'll be mainly offline from the end of this week till mid - end Dec. I'll keep popping in from time to time so if you leave me a message i'll get back to you eventually--Smoggy80 16:30, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

Due to heavys snows over here in the UK i'm back early from my wikibreak--Smoggy80 12:38, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

New user
Keep a look out for Garrett Roesler. He is a new user who has been leaving some offensive and inappropriate comments on several talk pages. LG and myself have already had to warn him about his behavior. If he keeps it up, please hit him with a short ban. Mitro 14:16, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

New AH Wiki
This is probably not a big deal, but I thought it would not hurt to bring it to the attention of the rest of the TSPTF.

It all started a few days ago. An anon created a new TL called 9/11/2001 was MUCH worse. Jazon Naparleon took offense to this article and left a message on the talk page. He mentioned how offended he was and he blamed the new wiki format on what he felt was a recent string of bad TLs that have been created. Personally I thought his logic is flawed and his reaction was completely unwarranted and unfair toward the anon. Nevertheless, Jazon called for a rebellion against wikia and its new format. Furthermore, he shared his ideas with several other editors and for a short time left his message in the forum.

Most editors either declined to participate or else left messages calling for restraint. I thought Tbguy1992's response was very good actually and South had a good suggestion of creating a "writing club" to help improve the writing skills of new editors. Sadly both Arstarpool and Red VS Blue agreed to join him in his rebellion. He used his talk page at the Anti-Wiki Alliance to discuss his rebellion. Notice the use of "his Mitroness", it sounds like he does not have a high opinion of me.

However, his rebellion culminated in simply creating a new alternate history wiki here.

So maybe it is my time to overreact, but here it goes: should we be worried about this? Are we going to lose editors over this? Will editors want to transfer there TLs over there, especially the featured TL Superpowers? Or is nothing going to come of it? Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Mitro 16:00, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Jazon is mentally with it, I'm sorry to say. I think 9/11/2001 was MUCH worse is a fine TL and I look forward to see how it plays out, its a shame that it caused such an outcry. Perhaps its just as well the disgruntled editors leave so they don't cause a ruckus around these parts. Personally I'm not terribly worried. --Zack 16:52, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I am at least going to suggest that we don't allow him to solicit new members for his wiki by leaving messages on user talk pages. He already did this for a few people, but I let it slide because he confined it to his friends. If he or others expand their recruitment, I will warn them that they should keep their solicitations to the forum, blog or just leaving a link on the online AH list. The first warning will be friendly, the second not so much and if there is a third time I will block them from editing. I feel it is only fair since I have followed the same route for other editors who tried to drum up support for their off-wiki sites. Mitro 17:12, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I side with Mitro on this. If these other editors feel that strongly, then while I'd hate to see them leave, I believe they should leave this wiki and start their own, with our blessing and no hard feelings on our part. They get to do alternate history according to their vision, on a wiki that works for them, and those who remain here get to do the same.BrianD 18:10, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not disloyal to althistory.wikia, but I did sign up at Jazon's site just to see what's going on there. So far, I have not figured out how to add articles to the new wiki. The "main page" is the only one up to be edited, and there does not seem to be any way to rename a page. The format there, though, is a lot less crowded. The sidebars are smaller, as are the ads. There are tabs rather than buttons. It is attractive, and I signed in as SouthWriter so they know who I am. But again, don't worry -- I'm not leaving "our wiki" just yet. SouthWriter 18:56, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone is accusing you of disloyalty South. No one is required to edit only one wiki, even if they are an admin. There is also no guarantee that Jazon's project will succeed either. That being said, it is still possible that Jazon's wiki and this place could exist side by side. From Jazon's rhetoric, I get the idea that he wants to limit the wiki only to experienced editors who are solid writers. Thus this place can remain open and attract new users, while experienced editors can always take a trip to the "other wiki" when they want to get away from it all. There are down sides to that setup. We might suffer a "brain drain" as our best editors leave for the more exclusive wiki. Also it might cause some resent between the editors who are not and the editors who are part of the "secret society".
 * Nevertheless if it does turn out that we will be directly competing with this other wiki than we will have to decide what are our options. At the moment I see nothing wrong with adopting a "wait and see" approach. Mitro 19:14, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

i for one will not be leaving this wiki--Smoggy80 19:46, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Heh. You know, funny as it may sound, I like the new layout here, lol. Dont think his shoutwiki looks that great, either.

Lordganon 20:47, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It reminds me of monobook, which I used for a short time after they finally did away with monaco. In the end I found the new format to be closer to monaco than monobook was. Mitro 21:58, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I ain't leaving Wikia anytime soon, but I am still a tad pissed that they removed Monaco which was much better for this kind of Wiki. But a "Secret Wiki Society" does exist, and it's off anything related to Wikia (including ShoutWiki) and on an actual website.
 * I'm not moving over to this new Wiki at ShoutWiki, either. So consider me one of the more "lax" members of this rebellion. I might make an account over at S-Wiki but I've ultimately decided to keep my "HQ" if you will on the Wikia system.
 * And Jarzon calling you "his Mitroness", I've seen other people say that before. Personally I think it's a tad rude but I can see why some people call you that, because many see you as that you are the de facto caretaker of the Wiki.
 * Arstar 01:07, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh, I try not to be. In terms of seniority, both Louis and Ben are superior to me. Mitro 02:08, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're a heck of a lot more active than they are, Mitro. Lordganon 02:41, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, the wiki consensus is the true caretaker of the wiki and the TSPTF carries it out. Anyone can do what I do with no problem. Mitro 02:47, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, you're one of the seniors at this point, Mitro. You're one of the "Illuminatus" of this wiki, just as I'm one here and with Ill Bethisad. You're someone who understands the underpinings of the whole and seeks to maintain the spirit of things. Louisiannan 03:41, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone for your kind comments, but let us get back on topic. Mitro 14:52, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm curious, how has the "rebellion" gone towards creating a new wiki? I was under the impression that we were going straight to Wikia to reinstate the old skin. In any case, a sister site could be to people's benefit, particularly if it acts as a kind of "Club" for more dedicated writers. However, I am interested to know what Jazon had meant by "the tech support people are transporting all the articles from here to there"; that needs some clarification. Red VS Blue 04:10, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I am also curious about that. What does he mean by articles? Does he mean a few select ones, or does he mean all of the articles on the wiki? All 12,000 of them? That is a big issue. I don't think people want there transported to another wiki without their permission. [EDIT] Never mind, I just saw the message he left on RVB's talk page. He does intend to transfer all 12000 articles. Mitro 14:52, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that in violation of the copyright laws in place on this wiki? Or do we have none of those? Red VS Blue 23:30, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone for your kind comments, but let us get back on topic. Mitro 14:52, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm curious, how has the "rebellion" gone towards creating a new wiki? I was under the impression that we were going straight to Wikia to reinstate the old skin. In any case, a sister site could be to people's benefit, particularly if it acts as a kind of "Club" for more dedicated writers. However, I am interested to know what Jazon had meant by "the tech support people are transporting all the articles from here to there"; that needs some clarification. Red VS Blue 04:10, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I am also curious about that. What does he mean by articles? Does he mean a few select ones, or does he mean all of the articles on the wiki? All 12,000 of them? That is a big issue. I don't think people want there transported to another wiki without their permission. [EDIT] Never mind, I just saw the message he left on RVB's talk page. He does intend to transfer all 12000 articles. Mitro 14:52, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that in violation of the copyright laws in place on this wiki? Or do we have none of those? Red VS Blue 23:30, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Man alive, we best put this down soon. --Zack 21:06, December 2, 2010 (UTC) I have no problem with Jazon starting his own alt-history wiki, but to take our work - the work that he had little or nothing to do with, and create a situation where it can be altered without regard for those who worked on it previously? That isn't right at all. It's as if one man (boy?) owns the wiki and can unilaterally move it without consent of anyone else who works on this TL. I wasn't even asked to join in this "rebellion" and I know other editors weren't, and yet our work is affected by this. I don't want to leave Wikia. I have no problem with Wikia. I have a big problem with what Jazon plans to do. This is a precedent that we can't let slide. --BrianD 22:10, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I left a message on his talk page asking him to reconsider transferring all of the articles and instead just transfer those articles/TLs he controls. He has not yet replied, does anyone know of any other ways to contact him? I was considering contacting Shout Wiki and ask if they can stop until we sort this out, but I am not confident they would listen. Mitro 21:11, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing I can suggest at the time being is that everyone who opposes this massive transfer should message both Jazon and ShoutWiki and tell them what you think. I do plan to email the ShoutWiki staff as soon as I can. We might also want to see if Wikia itself can do anything to stop this. Mitro 22:24, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

We ought block Jazon that will slow him down a bit from copying the format directly. --Zack 22:30, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Even as an anon he can still view the wiki and access the code. However, judging from his most recent message to RVB, he is not the one doing it but the ShoutWiki staff are. Mitro 22:34, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Is there anyway to prevent anons from editing articles? That would filter out the run of the mill spammers and Jazon types. --Zack 22:44, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we go through every single article and change the protection status to prevent anon and new users from editing the article. If we do that I predict this place would be dead in 6 months and it won't stop what Jazon is intending to do. Right now we need to reason with him and appeal to ShoutWiki to intervene by not going through with the transfer. Mitro 22:48, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, after reading everything about this, I'm really starting to worry. I mean, how can ShoutWiki actually transfer anything by simply getting a request from a user? I mean, he's not even an admin for Christ's sake! I find it hard to believe they would listen to one person. This would mean that any potential troublemaker could create an account, contact ShoutWiki and transfer data and we wouldn't know about it until it's too late! Scary thought.--Vladivostok 07:40, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree Vlad. But at least Jazon appears to be apologetic (see my talk page). I think he plans to contact Shout and get them to stop. At least we can prevent it from happening this time. Mitro 14:19, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Bigdee4198
I blocked Bigdee4198 for one year for vandalism, check his contributions for the reason why. I know that a year ban is kind of harsh for someone with only four edits, but when you see his contributions you will understand why. Mitro 14:49, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Upcoming wikibreak
I am going to be married in about 2 weeks, thus as the day gets closer I am going to be spending less and less time here. So please make sure you are taking care of the responsibilties you signed up for. I hope to return to a more active status soon. Mitro 17:31, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mitro! Arstar 03:58, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

The Stirling Awards
Nominations for the 1st Annual Stirling Awards of Alternate History have begun! Mitro 23:19, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

To clear things up
First of all I am not racist and I will NEVER slurs on my TLs. Second of all I very sorry about my bad edits it will never happen again. --mr.r 13:38, Decamber,16, 2010

Owens back
he messaged me on my talk page his new IP is 86.178.0.235--Smoggy80 12:31, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I already blocked the ip address (see the Owen sockpuppet investigation section). Mitro 16:04, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who is owen? mr.r 21:29, December 24, 2010
 * He's a guy who has been bugging people and not following rules for some time, and we banned him back in October, but he's come on through different IPs and usernames. Arstar 03:09, December 25, 2010 (UTC)



74.118.195.117
It's not Owen, but this user IP edited a page and made it into some sort of advertisement. I rolled back the edit, but could someone ban it?

Lordganon 03:14, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

On it. BrianD 18:23, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

I found owen
Hey TSPTF look at this http:// aliens.wikia.com/wiki/user:1983 mr.r 11:24,january,6,2010
 * Um...Owen is only blocked on this wiki, he can still access the other wikis operating under Wikia. In fact I believe Owen1983 is an admin on the Alien Species Wiki. So thanks for finding him, I guess, but what do you want us to do? Mitro 16:36, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it means he will stop buging this wiki (maybe for good). mr.r 11:42,January,6,2011
 * He was an admin there long before his block, it didn't stop him then. Mitro 16:52, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point. mr.r 16:57 January 6, 2011
 * Listen I appreciate you trying to help, but don't worry about Owen. He was before your time here. Mitro 17:03, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

TSPTF Call Out
If you are a TSPTF member, please respond to this message. I am looking to see who is still active. Mitro 15:26, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Still here and kicking. Lordganon 17:07, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Да, я! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:16, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm here, though I've been a bit busy outside the wiki for quite a while. I do want to get back to 1983:DD and help out elsewhere where needed. BrianD 17:18, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Still around.Oerwinde 18:19, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * New member, reporting for duty. Red VS Blue 22:32, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Still here--Smoggy80 12:11, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Still here, Exams and Website work have been ocupying me recently thoughVegas adict 19:35, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still alive. Not receiving emails from the Wiki as usual however. --Zack 17:24, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I have that problem too. Mitro 17:47, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, anymore actives out there who still need to sign in. Mitro 15:20, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry Mitro, I missed the memo. I'm still around, currently freer than I have been in a while. Working on Nuke's "Two Americas" presently, though I really want to get back to 1983DD soon. SouthWriter 21:22, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Louis, Ben, Mr X, Vlad and Yank have not responded to the Call Out and thus are now on inactive status. If they respond soon I will reinstate them as active admins, but until then we need some new members.

If we follow the 1 admin for every 1000 articles rule, we need four new Lts. I will be making the announcement to the entire community soon, but if there is anyone you think is good for the job, nominate them soon.

Also we need a new member for the Brass. For those who don't know, the Brass are just like Lts, except they grant user rights and make the final decision in any issues that the community is divided on. So far such issues have never come up (Arstar's impeachment trial being the closest), but in case they do I think it would be better to have at least an odd number of Brass. So if any current Lts meet the qualifications and want the job, I would highly reccomend finding someone to nominate you. I might be willing to do the nomination if someone contacts me. Mitro 16:17, January 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, IIRC I said a while ago that for the forseeable future I'd be Inactive. That may not be true forever, but it's certainly true now. Long live the New Guard! Benkarnell 14:51, January 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ben and when you do return I will return you to active status. Anyway, are their no opinions or suggestions for new TSPTF members? I asked Jorge if he was interested? Thoughts, comments or suggestions? Mitro 15:24, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've asked King and Smoggy about it. Was going to a couple days back, but forgot, lol. Thanks for reminding me. As for others.... how about someone else with the map games (Maybe BoredMatt or Fedelede?), and maybe Tbguy1992, Mister Sheen, Mumby, Katholico, or Red? Not interested in Brass myself, but surely someone is worthy and would do it. Lordganon 16:02, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I actually messaged Oer to see if he had anyone to suggest from the gamers (we need more of them active in the administration of the wiki considering how large of a community they are). I asked Jorge if he was interested. The other people you suggested are good recommendations as well, Katholico in particular since he is already admin on the Spanish wiki. Mitro 16:14, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Smoggy declined for the moment (avenue for the future, then), and Jorge said he didn't have time.... I've asked Katholico now as well. Lordganon 23:15, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Fedelede would be a good choice I think, he was pretty active on multiple areas of the wiki. BoredMatt is pretty prolific on the map games if you want to pull from there. Seems more level headed than most of the Map Game crew as well.Oerwinde 10:03, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

I AM ALIVE! So the Call Out was on email, huh? I don't get emails from the wiki. {C}--Yank 02:07, February 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * No actually, the call out was just a message I left on this talk page to see who was still watching. I later contacted those members who did not respond on their personal talk pages. Anyway, I will return you Yank to active duty. Mitro 14:26, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Tbguy1992 is interested in being a part of the TSPTF. I am going to post his nomination soon. If you guys have any as well, please post them as well. Mitro 20:02, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Katholico is interested as well, and I'll nominate him sometime soon too. King's on the fence, but I think he'd like to be a constable if nothing else. Will keep informed. Lordganon 06:14, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

King has agreed to be nominated as well. Lordganon 08:04, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Kath has now been nominated on the page. Lordganon 08:46, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I just nominated Tb. We only have one more position (assuming all three guys get in). Mitro 14:07, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I'd say on of the map guys, then. Oer, which would be the best choice, in your mind? King has been nominated now too. Lordganon 22:51, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I nominated BoredMatt, for being an extremely active map gamer and one of the more level headed of the bunch.Oerwinde 04:30, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm actually quite happy with being moved into the retired-folks category and retaining my rights for none other than reasons of pride, if no one else minds. {C}Mr.Xeight 04:52, February 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've been sort-of active lately, but I am about to go completely inactive again for at least the next month and a half. This website is one of several that I am giving up as a way to help with my Lenten contemplation. Benkarnell 05:09, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

user
Hey, some guy just made a page call butts you should block him.Mr.r 02:24, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Done and thank you. Mitro 02:55, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Map Games
Michael Douglas made a blog post that made me curious. Apparently he was insulted on AH.com for being from this wiki. Here is an example he used:

"I'm mad right now cause you think your the shit. You come from fucking althistory wiki which is a bunch of shit and all you do is play fucking map games."

Now I have not seen the actual post (but I assume that I could get the link from Mike) or the context for which it was made, however, I can't help but take away from the statement the use of the Map Games in the insult. They really have become popular on this wiki. Nevertheless they have caused some issues. I would like to ask: what are your opinions on the Map Games as they are now? Mitro 01:51, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorta new to this site, but from what I've seen:

I have tried to creat e more complex map games that are plausble and have an enourmous array of options, but everyone has said it either was overly complex (although it really wasn't), or I should buy some game that you can do stuff like it. It really annoyed me that when I tried to push the boundries of map games a bit, everyone shot it down. Its like the people dont want a new gweneration f complex map games, but to stick with the implausible, boring old map games. Also, I am fairly offended by the post, even though It wasn't directed at me. It seems like everyones ignoring the dozens of good TLs that this wikia has turned out. We dont only play map games. Roguejedi 16:30, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) They usually last from 2-5 turns, with a small minority making it past 10. We need to focus energies to make them better, rather than continuously moving on.
 * 2) There is little creative value. It is usually focused on expansion, and once there's no more expansion, people get bored. If we could add more creative value, they would not be a such a low form of entertainment.
 * 3) People do not want to create articles to accompany the map games. I was thinking a cross between community timelines like DD, and map games. We could have a main timeline page while people should develop their own articles. Like how there's pages like Hanthawaddy (Principia Moderni) on the game Principia Moderni.
 * 4) Imo we should try to model them more on what Conworlds is doing. Like Future World or Pangam-Pangat. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:44, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I actually really like the idea of what Principia Moderni is doing. If people were more into it and updated the articles for their nations it could really grow, creating history sections that describe events in the map game with more detail. It could be a model for future map games.

I think map games also get a bad rep because the majority of players don't care about how plausible their posts are as long as their favorite nation becomes a superpower. Just like every other althist you need to do a little homework before you post.Oerwinde 18:48, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Gamers certainly are in need of an intervention. They are getting a bad reputation both on and off the wiki. Nevertheless, any real change needs to come from within the community. Rogue and Kenny, you both have some good points, I just wish there were more of you. If the TSPTF tries to impose changes it will either kill the games or drive them to their own wiki. Still if we hear more negative things about the wiki because of the map games we may have to intervene.
 * That being said I do plan to begin a campaign to cull the large defunct game list. Most of those games barely got past turn 1 and have not been updated in months. They are cluttering the wiki and I am going to delete them. Mitro 19:24, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have an interesting idea. How about, you start a map game like thing in a certain year, and every week or so you do ten years. People then create articles on what happened in those years, like a normal alt history, but people decide what happens and over time it evovles. If I could get some support on this I think we could get it off the ground. I think you should delete the defunct map games, but not the ones that have done well and have been creative. It will help give map games a better reputation. Roguejedi 20:09, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * O I don't plan to remove games that were played for a while, like Europe 1430. But the ones that barely got past turn 10? Yeah they are gone. Mitro 20:23, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I meant, but how do you like my idea of a creation of a game where every week is ten years and you create articles about those ten years. Roguejedi 20:34, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't actually play the map games, so I am not the person to ask. But hey I support anything that makes the games more plausible. Mitro 20:55, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I really don't agree with that as that would simply clog up the wiki with useless Map Game pages.I mean, most map games don't get past turn 10. They'll just be sitting there, useless. PitaKang 21:37, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried that on Conworlds but the problem is people will tend to procrastinate until the last day of the week, and the six days in between make it moribund. Didn't make it past the first week, even though everyone had good articles. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:20, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe if we could get some of the better editors (not only the ones doing the map games), then we could do it. Also, if a week is fairly empty, then we could go back to it. I was thinking of only inviting the really good and plausible editors that dont give up on map games. Roguejedi 22:49, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I still dont think it's a good idea. I mean, creating a new page for every year would kind of clog this wiki up. I mean, Europe 1100 was due to end in 911 days. 911 more pages? And that's one map game. There's 3 active games here, and if they keep on doing this, most of the pages here will be map game pages. Also, another problem is that it's extremely annoying to have to switch back and forth to look at years before, and all in all, I think it's a waste of space. I mean, a map game page will have like what, 10 posts? Then it's done. It's just too little to make a page for. That's just my opinion. PitaKang 22:58, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * What we could do is have a legit timeline with lots of information articles with the map game as the skeleton. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:37, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * That could work.... PitaKang 23:39, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm game to try it Roguejedi 00:13, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Another thing I've noticed in the last week or so is duplicate games. The duplicate Explorers or Europe 1430 are different as the original games went for quite a while, and trying to recreate them after they die is fine, but for instance the Massive Impact games, the first one went like 3 turns, so someone rather than trying to get people to actually use the old one created a new one. If a map game was stillborn, instead of creating a new identical one in order to try again, just try to revive the original.Oerwinde 08:34, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm game to try it Roguejedi 00:13, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Another thing I've noticed in the last week or so is duplicate games. The duplicate Explorers or Europe 1430 are different as the original games went for quite a while, and trying to recreate them after they die is fine, but for instance the Massive Impact games, the first one went like 3 turns, so someone rather than trying to get people to actually use the old one created a new one. If a map game was stillborn, instead of creating a new identical one in order to try again, just try to revive the original.Oerwinde 08:34, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Another thing I've noticed in the last week or so is duplicate games. The duplicate Explorers or Europe 1430 are different as the original games went for quite a while, and trying to recreate them after they die is fine, but for instance the Massive Impact games, the first one went like 3 turns, so someone rather than trying to get people to actually use the old one created a new one. If a map game was stillborn, instead of creating a new identical one in order to try again, just try to revive the original.Oerwinde 08:34, February 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's best, as you say, if changes come from the community. And in this case, from the map-playing subculture. So I'm glad to see some mappers here part of the discussion.
 * One simple step could be adding a guideline: "If you do not wish to continue work on your map game, please add a template to the page so an admin knows it can be deleted." Or something like that.
 * The problem of duplicate games can also be first addressed with a guideline and community standards. "Before you create a page for a new game, look through the archives to see if it's been done before."
 * But I don't think we should worry too much if someone at AH.com is saying insulting things about our wiki. There are a lot of very large egos at that site, and generally speaking, if something exists, you can be fairly sure somebody at AH.com has said something rude about it. Benkarnell 16:47, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Calthrina950
It appears Catherine has been active on another wiki called Novelas. Her reputation is so good there she actually has supporters asking to reverse the ban here. You can see the message I received here. Mitro 14:43, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

She been banned for over a year now, she's due an appeal to her sentence, she may have calmed down and matured in that year, we could cut her ban from 1000 year to 1 year (provisionally) and relese her on probation immediatly.

However if she acts up again, she gets three warnings, then she's gone again and the 1000 year ban kicks in again and this time, no appeal.--Smoggy80 18:39, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

That not only sets a bad precedent, but also would be bad judgment.

I agree with Mitro's opinion, as expressed on his talk page and that of the person who asked, that this is simply an attempt by the head admin of the novellas wiki to get Catherine's work moved off of there. I've skimmed through her "althists" on there, and the only one that would be allowed on this wiki at all - the rest are future histories, impossible, or racist and religious extremism - is the Russian one that has been heavily criticized on here anyways as being heavily biased in favor of Russia, with virtually no other content to it other than the Russian Empire.

The one story in particular, the "American Empire," shows she has not changed, but is rather laying low.

Catherine insulted most of the active users on this wiki at one point or another, and quite offensively. Refused to follow the rules, and kept violating them, as well.

A year, or even two, is not enough time. 1000 years might sound like too much, but it is just what they deseve for their actions. I do not care how "good" they seem to be elsewhere.

And, looking at their talkpage last night, I saw a reference to Catherine being banned on the nationswiki as well, though when I looked there I could not find any record of them there. Take that as you will, but if the allegation/note was true, we were not the first to dispose of it.

Lordganon 21:59, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

To add, the same user that asked about Catherine used "Beside that, Novelas is trying to tone down conworldish projects" as a note when he removed a dead link from the conventions page earlier. Lordganon 22:04, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that info about the Nations Wiki LG. I did some investigating and found out she was blocked...as a sock puppet account. Her primary account on that wiki is User:Youngla0450, which is an account on this wiki as well. I went and permanently blocked that account as well in case she tried to use it again. Mitro 23:34, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

possible trouble causer
the IP address 68.38.233.201 has been causing some trouble by doing edits on various pages (lordgannon's and southwriter's in particular), and not making a user name, despite repeated requests, could the TSPTF do a 'official' post on the user page? or possibly a week ban for not following procedure despite warnings?--Smoggy80 17:39, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

It's not really any pages in particular or created by any one user that they seem to edit, though they do seem to be attached to Delmarva for some reason. As I told them in the latest warning, a block on them - minus the usual thing preventing account creation - will follow the next time that they do it. Since the last one - done by Zack - was a week, this next one will be whatever is the next longest. Couple weeks, I figure. Lordganon 04:33, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

And before anyone says something about them being Owen or the like, their IP traces back to New Jersey. Not a shocker, that one. Lordganon 04:34, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

I rolled back the last edit he/she did on Delmarva. For anyone who's not familiar with this situation, he/she is making numerous minor edits that contradict what Fxgentleman has put in, and despite Fxgentleman's requests to not make any such edits. The anon editor has also ignored requests to give him/herself a username and is ignoring any attempts by editors to interact with him. BrianD 05:39, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

troll master
Hey some guy blanked uk zombie page and put a message saying he is the troll master. This guy sounds like owen.Mr.r 19:17, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I already reversed the edit and blocked the anon for a year. And no he is not Owen, it is not his style and the ip address does not match ones he has used. It makes no sense to accuse every anonymous troll/vandal to be Owen since he never actually vandalized pages on this wiki. Also Mr. r you came after Owen, so why the hell do you keep mentioning him? Mitro 19:20, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I ment that he is like Owen and I did not know you blocked him until after I made this message.71.174.89.240 20:58, February 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, your obsession with Owen just makes it seem like you're one of his sock-puppets. Just stop and let the admin take care of him. We need to get past Owen. PitaKang 21:02, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

SayNoToTheism32
This guy, whose very offensive "timeline" I added a deletion template to - which he removed without changing a thing in the rest of it - spent about 20 minutes, logging in and out, extensively vandalizing my user page, making it even more offensive than his "article." I undid all the edits - had to do that individually to the blasted things - and have now blocked him. Feel free to edit the time its for.

Also, you guys need to pay more attention to things going on - Brian at the very least was online during this >.>;

Lordganon 10:43, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well at least we have a new member for the Wall of Shame. Mitro 14:18, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

A anon, IP 202.14.33.189, just posted on the banned user's article trying to defend it. IP traces to the New Zealand, like the other anon IP the guy used, so it's more than likely the same person. I've added a block there as well. Lordganon 22:01, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

LG: my apologies for not seeing it, and deleting it sooner. I would have been upset too. You're right, we need to pay more attention...in my defense, I was probably looking at the wiki during the few minutes I had to spare that day. Wish I had noticed what that jerk was doing. BrianD 02:33, March 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, that happens. Anyways, I really hope he doesn't come back. Anyways, only 2 months, and already a Wall of Shame! Lol. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 02:41, March 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * ::Some of whom had earned their places long before we put it up. BrianD 02:45, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

No worries, Brian. Lordganon 19:36, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Alternative History:Adoption Policy
See the link above. I wrote down the unofficial policy we have been using for adopting timeline. Please read and comment. Mitro 21:38, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Looks fine by me. Lordganon 19:38, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

I would make it mandatory to announce adoptions on the portal page talk page. This would prevent someone from arbitrarily adopting pages without anyone else's knowledge (or claiming such). 99 percent of the time this wouldn't be a problem, but there's always that 1 percent who could cause some trouble. Otherwise the policy looks good. BrianD 22:05, March 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wanted to promote people using the banner by making it as easy as possible. I feel that if someone puts the banner up than whoever takes it down gets to adopt the article, period. I think if we make it mandatory to leave a message after doing that we are giving others the chance to object to who wants to adopt the TL, and I think that would mean a lot of unecessary headaches. Mitro 03:47, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes more sense, now that I think about it, Mitro. BrianD 19:34, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

Crimson and Monkeys
We may have an abuse of multiple accounts to investigate. Recently User:1000Monkeys nominated User:CrimsonAssassin to be a Constable to the TSPTF. Pita opposed the nomination, stating that Monkeys is Crimson's little brother and Crimson sometimes even uses the account. Certainly it is possible that two people can use the same computer to edit the wiki, but this is certainly suspicious. We should investigate to learn more about whether these two editors are actually different people. Mitro 17:18, March 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. BrianD 19:34, March 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * What's so suspicious? My little brother nominated me. CrimsonAssassin 19:54, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * It is suspicious because the only proof we have that both accounts are used by seperate people is your word. Use your common sense Crimson, don't people who use sockpuppets never admit that they are pretending to be someone else? Unless there is some hard evidence that it is really your brother on that account, there is no way to dispel that suspicion. For example, I am assuming that you both live together since you are both underage, meaning you likely use the same ip address or else an address located in the same city. That right there is suspicious, especially since it is difficult to prove that it is really a seperate account. Perhaps it is not enough evidence to block you, but certainly it casts enough doubt on your nomination to the TSPTF. Mitro 20:25, March 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Crimson admitted that he once used the 1000Monkeys account as a sockpuppet. He alleges however that he turned the account over to his brother after learning that making sockpuppets is a bannable offense. Since I had no way to prove he was telling the truth even now, I blocked the 1000Monkeys account and removed Crimson's nomination to the TSPTF. I think we can close this nomination now. Regardless of whether Crimson is still telling the truth, there is really nothing more we can do to confirm or deny what he is saying. I ask only that you keep a look out on Crimson and any similarities he might have with new users that might join this wiki for now on. Mitro 18:52, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Unexpected wikibreak
So my computer caught a pretty nasty virus. It was so bad I had to take it to geek squad. It should be there for the next three to five days. Right now I am leaving this message with my new phone which despite its advanced capabilities is still not very effective when it comes to wiki editing. Keep the place in order while I am gone and remember to play nice kids. Mitro 13:34, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, we'll be good! :) PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:28, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright I'm back. Got my computer back sooner than expected. Now I just need to wade through everything on my watchlist. Mitro 16:40, March 23, 2011 (UTC)

possible Owen clone
I've had a message from a new user called User:Wingman1, it wasn't abusive or anything, however the spelling was poor and his user page has a Startrek picture attached, now I know that bad spelling and Startrek references does not make an Owen clone but its a user to maybe keep an eye on--Smoggy80 16:50, March 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * He's clean. He is actually from South Carolina. Mitro 16:53, March 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thats a relief, thought he was back for a horrible moment--Smoggy80 16:54, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

User:Vhaul
I think he/she might be a clone of User:Anonymous History Guy. His first edit on this wiki was signing up for the Axis vs Allies Map Game. Now that is all right. I signed up for a map game as soon as I joined. However, this user seems to know how to sign, first of all (It took me several weeks to figure out), and has the signature so that when he signs, Vhaul goes in the back right after the timestamp, just like AHG. Also, he voted in the Talk:Axis vs Allies against the reversal of AHG's edits, and that was his third edit. Just some suspicions. Thanks, PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:53, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the evidence so far is a bit definitive. Vhaul joins AHG's 1080 map game, posts immediately after AHG, and if you check the writing style, it's really similar. Connects clauses a lot. Writes a little bit like a story rather than neutrally. Pro-drop. Overuses commas. Just putting in my two cents; I don't want to get caught in the middle of a TSPTF brawl. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:20, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Seeing the argument on the Axis vs Allies page, I'm inclined to agree with you guys. But, there is no definite proof at this time, so there's not much that can be done about it at this time. Lordganon 11:13, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Actually I found out that Wikia will check user accounts if asked to see if one is a sockpuppet. I will go and do that now and see what happens. Mitro 13:56, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, on both map games, Vhaul and AHG writes like this:

China invades Hawaii. Armies roll through Honolulu. US resistance crushed. Nuke sent to Washington DC, and etc. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:51, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

More evidence. Their userpages are both in the same format (introduction including what country and age, then a sentence on opinions, then they left favorite pages untouched). AHG has been known for taking initiative on AvA, where he creates the Apostolic Palace. Then Vhaul creates the Apostolic Palace on 1080. Both times the term is used incorrectly, and a quick Google Search seems to point at Civ 4. Third piece of evidence, they always post right next to each other, like within an hour or so. And Vhaul comes right after AHG. And not to be stalker-like, but AHG claims he is Irish, but the IP points to the United States. I mean, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but this looks pretty suspicious. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:23, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I just got contacted by wikia. The account is indeed a sock puppet. Please block both accounts permanently. Mitro

I put a 1-year ban on both accounts (I didn't see a permanent option on the pull-down menu). BrianD 01:36, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think he means 1000 years. Permanent is only for anons. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:50, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't see 1000 years on the pull-down menu either. First time I've banned someone (and only because of Mitro's note and the fact that I haven't seen any other admin on here for awhile). BrianD 02:09, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

You type it in manually, Brian, and permanent = 1000 years. And while the IP location checks out as Mitro, you guys need to check and make sure, in the future, if you didn't. I've made it a 1000 year ban each. Lordganon 07:17, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Lesson learned. BrianD 17:54, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Suspected that HerMajestyShip was a sockpuppet of this guy, and I had his IP traced. The response:

"Yes, your guess is right. HerMajestyShip is an IP address in the same range as the one used by Anonymous History Guy. It's likely a sockpuppet."

Extending his block to permanent.

Lordganon 03:46, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

My resignation
Dear TSPTF members:

I regret to inform you that I am resigning from the TSPTF. With the complete understanding that I may be accused of being a wiki diva, I leave this message to explain the reasons for my departure to avoid unwarranted speculation.

I never actually wanted to be an admin. I originally gained the position due to my annoying habit of leaving messages on Louis’ talk page asking him to ban various anons I caught vandalizing articles. After receiving the position I decided to make the best of it and correct the glaring errors of the wiki.

However as time went by the nature of my contributions to the wiki began to change. The events of my real life have been unprecedented. In less than a year I have started my career as an attorney, married my college sweetheart and said goodbye to someone very important to me. As my free time became scarcer, I found myself carrying out only my admin duties without anytime available to be creative. Being an admin is truly a thankless job and, though it may be selfish of me to say this, not fun at all.

I felt this way for several months now and I have been debating with myself about what to do. I came close to doing it during the review of Superior in the 1983DD TL, but again stuck with it. Recently I tried to revitalize my creative spirit with the 1983DD TL, but my heart was never really in it. I feel I was doing it to relive the “golden age” of the TL when I first joined, but that era is over and I think it is time for me to leave it to the next generation.

I have recently begun something I never thought I would be able to accomplish. I always had the dream to be a published author and now it looks like that may be a reality. I have started work on a novel and I have already written 50 pages. I wish to fully commit to this goal, but I feel I will need to leave this wiki to do so.

I had some great times here and made some good friends. I wish you all the best of luck and I am sure that as members of the TSPTF you will carry out your duties to best of your abilities. In the meantime, Oer as the senior member of the Brass, you are in charge. If I can have one last request, when May rolls around please nominate LG to be a part of the Brass. He is one of the most dedicated admins on this wiki and he will make a perfect partner.

If anyone needs to contact me, either message me on Facebook or shoot me an email at mitro85@yahoo.com.

Thank you and good luck.

Mitro 07:30, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Say it isn't so! =(

Lordganon 07:57, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

What LG said :-(

BrianD 17:22, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

NOOOO! Don't go, Mitro! PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 02:49, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for everything you have done for the community, Mitro. You have truly been a great example for the next generation of contributors. I have known you for almost a year now and you are one of the greatest admins this site will ever have.

Good luck, and don't forget to drop in from time to time, Arstar 03:11, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Mitro, if you ever finish your book, please email me a title, so I can purchase it, and good luck! You will come around to say hi some times, right? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:12, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

I perfectly understand, Mitro, and wish you the best on the novel. I have four partially finished novels - three of which I started back when you were in diapers. :-( {C}I want to thank you for your final act of creativity on 1983DD - the American Spring. It will breath some breath into the time line, giving an avenue for creativity among the editors - new and old. SouthWriter 16:34, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Unexpected. I haven't been checking in as much due to a Dragon Age II addiction so wow. Good luck Mitro.Oerwinde 22:45, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Featured TLs
Hey guys, I forgot about one last item of business to take care of before I really can retire. I was the official moderator of the featured timeline process, so someone will have to step up and take that over. It is not difficult, just moderate the elections and randomly select from the featured list of TLs which ones should be on the main page. The current policy I followed was that every TL would get a chance to be featured once before I started over again. Currently we have a half dozen that have not been featured. 64.213.188.134 15:18, March 29, 2011 (UTC) (Mitro)

Will do, Mitro. Lordganon 15:24, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

User:Zortaw
I think we have a sock-puppet of AHG. Once again, their writing style is similar, lots of clauses.


 * Utrecht is united by tribes in Utrecht, with the capital of Amerongen. Utrecht begins focussing on the trade by sea. By giving the lowest prices on Utrecht's ports alot of ships go to Utrecht. Making a very stable economy. Investing in it's army Utrecht is a stable nation. Going in the future full with hope..

That was his first post on the 1080 AD Map Game. Like Vhaul, he signed up for 1080 MG first, but doesn't seem to know how to sign. Then again, could be pretending since he's most likely read our conversation upstairs. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 20:57, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, Pita. I can't look into it now, but if LG doesn't beat me to it, I'll do so as soon as I can. BrianD 21:27, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Sent wikia a message about it. Hear back from'em in a couple days~ Lordganon 05:47, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

"Thanks for contacting Wikia. According to a CheckUser search, there are no IP matches between Zortaw or any other user, including Anonymous History Guy. I hope that helps."

Given the context of the last one I sent, that means the IP is not from Ireland at all.

Lordganon 08:41, April 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Guess I was wrong. I'll keep an eye on him, though. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 15:04, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

Rebelsoldier
I have numerous things to bring up, regardless of if I am in the TSPTF or not. We've got a new guy called Rebelsoldier. He's a nice guy and all, but the moves in the map games he does are implausible. So implausible, in fact, that I am still amazed at some things he did. For example, I play as the US in the Civil War Map Game. I think everyone should know who he plays as. Once, he tried taking New York in one turn with 3 ironclads! Also, once I was pushing into Richmond and he posted ABOVE me, saying that the capital was moved to Alabama before the Union got there. And then, he took back Virginia (which was entirely Union by now), took over the Arizona territory, and took Deleware all in one turn.

So the Civil War map game is the new Imperial Europe 1.

Also, there is a new guy called... drumroll please...

Confederatesoldier

Sockpuppetry, anyone?

CrimsonAssassin 18:24, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

More evidence. CS has edited RS's post, by adding The CSA offers Argentina an allaince.

Then, he posts: Argentina: Argentina accepts the CSA's offer of allaince, and Brazil, French Mexico, Brazil, and the CSA officaily form the American Powers

PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 18:28, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

When he's banned, the games that have been messed up by this will be restarted. I've got a migraine trying to keep him from running loose and wrecking other map games! CrimsonAssassin 18:33, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've sent a note to wikia about it, to see if their IPs match. I'll keep you informed. Lordganon 19:50, April 7, 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, you are correct. They do share the same IPs. Feel free to reset the games. They've been perm banned. Lordganon 15:27, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

IP 76.252.71.77 has been included, for obvious reasons. Lordganon 15:29, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

HORRRAAAAAAYY!!!!!! Which games should I reset? I might take control of the Civil War Map Game. CrimsonAssassin

I figure whichever ones he made and screwed up, with permission of the other players, of course. Lordganon 19:02, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

New User Southerndude just made the exact same edit as Reb tried to do. More than likely a sockpuppet, so he has been blocked too. Lordganon 20:00, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

You guys might want to check this out http://implausablealternatehistory.wikia.com/wiki/Implausable_Alternate_History_Wiki - Mitro

Not shocked to see it, but there's nothing wikia will do about it. Best to just ignore it, it will go nowhere. Lordganon 09:52, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

I would investigate into JSimCox. He's adopted CSA in Civil War Map Game, and then Argentina (which Rebel did). Also he brought up implausibility chances as a "good idea", which is something SouthernDude put on Implausible Althist wiki. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:20, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

I've made an inquiry with wikia to find out if they are likely the same or not. Be a couple days~ Lordganon 07:47, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

JSimcox, Southerndude, Rebelsoldier, and Confederatesoldier are the same person.

Kind regards,

Angela

Angela Beesley {C}Wikia.com, co-founder

Block added to him as well.

Lordganon 12:47, April 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should IP ban him. CrimsonAssassin 16:02, April 26, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, an IP banning comes with every account block. Not much that we can do about it besides that. Lordganon 08:44, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

User:Batmanary has suggested that User:Ceaser1345 is another Reb clone. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:21, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. I'd already thought the same and sent wikia a message couple days ago, lol. Should find out soon. Lordganon 08:50, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

Or yesterday, lol. Odd, never got a response on Sunday before, lol. Yes, it's him. Lordganon 10:26, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I think DeanSims might be a Reb clone. He has a name in common with JSimcox, a Rebelsoldier clone. Also, when joining Principia Moderni, he's trying to be Incan, disregarding that it had since been taken over by China. There is also the fact that I caught Reb and he's probably angry with me and out to get me.

-CrimsonAssassin

Heh. Maybe, I'll ask. Though, I can definitely say that the user "TheLastAmerican" is, lol. Lordganon 21:26, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

OOoh. Bad move, Reb!

-CrimsonAssassin

Wikia says that he's using a suspicious IP setup, like he's trying to hide something, but that he doesn't match Reb, Acerus~ or AHG, or any of their puppets. Keep an eye on him, as while I can't block him right now, he's up to something. Lordganon 01:58, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

upgrade on english language
have "we" a template or category to put articles with "awful" use of english language? --Fero 22:17, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Why not just correct them? CrimsonAssassin 22:19, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Thats what I do. Half the articles started by Owen are nearly unrecognizable from when he wrote them because people corrected the grammar and spelling mistakes. Theres a Stirling award for best copy editor for it as well.184.65.10.42 23:29, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Stick the "grammar" template onto it. Lordganon 00:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC) thank youFero 04:10, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Special:Leaderboard on others wikias
Hi everybody, I ask if somedody here can copy paste what it need to make efective Special:Leaderboard stuff on future.wikia.com --Fero 04:29, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Hi to everyone, just a question? I was looking at some articles and when I select edit; they use to show the editor/author. Now they don't, what happen? And when are they going to show all the achievement badges?

Peacedarer 17:15, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wikia changed things slightly, and the latest Firefox change made things even worse. Just click the "History" button and you'll learn the same information.

The badges? It shows all that you can get.

Lordganon 17:51, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

User:JohnAllenMichael
I think he might be a Reb clone. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:24, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Sent a query for that account. I don't quite see the similarity myself, but a query is simple enough of a thing to do. Lordganon 04:39, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Trace comes back as not a Reb clone, in the least. Thank you for pointing your suspicions out, however. Lordganon 08:45, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Greetings
I'm planning to spend some regular time on the wiki for the foreseeable future and will be happy to get back to doing active administrative work, if I'm wanted/needed.

I do not plan to do much in the way of 83 Doomsday collaboration - mostly some tinkering or expanding on my own pages, and some other writing. And plenty of looking around - I've missed a lot of new content around here. Benkarnell 05:01, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Could always use the help. South's also away right now, some sort of trip, so it'd be much appreciated by me, lol. Lordganon 06:05, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Imperium Guy
Hello everybody. I am not the kind of person to do this, but I feel it has gotten completely out of hand. Imperium Guy has practically taken one of my timelines and has become to morph it into his/her own. This includes:


 * 1) Cannonizing pages and images without consent.
 * 2) Expanding on articles which already have caretakers.
 * 3) Reuploading already existing files (from the same timeline).
 * 4) Contracting with other users as if he/she were an admin.

And above all, creating and attempting to expand the timeline outside this wiki.

I am feeling completely stressed out from the situation. I just spent the last two hours correcting mistakes and deleting duplicates. I am not sure what is to be done, but something must be done about this. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:34, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can definitely warn him to not touch it ever again.

Past that, up to you. Could block him for a touch, if you want.

Lordganon 22:21, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't want to block him. After all, his/her heart was in the right place. I think I would rather discuss the situation with him/her, explaining the line not to cross. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:11, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * I just wrote them, telling the lines not to cross, as well as some rules to follow. I told them that if this continues, I will be bringing up disciplinary actions. I will also be protecting several crucial articles for my timeline to prevent any expansion (for about a week). If this isn't okay, I will not do so. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:28, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Power to you, Nuke. Lordganon 19:10, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

User:Biaksh
It's come to my attention that this new user, Biaksh, has vandalized the Nepal article on the World of the Rising Sun timeline. Since it's pretty obviously a troll/vandal, I just wanted to post it here in order to ask for somebody of the higher levels of the TSPTF to block him. Fed (talk) 02:49, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. If you'd take me up on the offer, you'd be able to to it yourself, lol. Blocked him for a week. Lordganon 05:18, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I think that a new user, Nepalmypride might be sock-puppet. He upload flag of Nepal and posted the flag on this image. Just though I let know... 9 もりや すわこ 12:54, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that one seems pretty obvious. Going to do a month ban on both and ask wikia for conformation. If they are, a year. Lordganon 14:21, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Wikia traced the two accounts and couldn't find anything similar/in common between them, IP-wise. Pretty good indicator normally, but I'd still bet money on them being the same person. So, the month stands, but I won't extend it at this time. Lordganon 06:18, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's odd, maybe he must have had switched his IP to a whole new address (don't know if possible)? Or maybe he moved to a whole new location and done it that way? 9 もりや すわこ 07:37, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Well, given what they've been able to tell me in the past, the IPs are similar in neither location of origin or IP number in general. Even if he used a different comp across town, or was able to change the IP on his router a touch, they'd have been able to tell me that they were related. That being said, mind, their traces can't tell anything about re-directs from what I've seen, so.... that may not mean too much. As I said, as far as I'm concerned its the same guy, but I have no definite proof of it, at this time. Lordganon 07:54, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * He's probably on a Proxy. No use in finding connections that way. --XterrorX 09:17, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * ...Which is what I just said. Lordganon 13:04, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Whoops, didn't notice "or was able to change the IP on his router a touch". =p --XterrorX 14:51, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not sure about this, but Leyla Abbasova May be similar to Nepalmypride. It uploaded an image and posted it on this map. Also, I'm beginning to think that Nepalmypride is not similar to Biaksh; or if all 3 are similar. 9 もりや すわこ 13:22, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Leyla'd be unrelated. But still banned, obviously. Lordganon 20:36, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

New suspected sockpuppet?
I've been starting to get curious. Is this user and this user similar in any way? I'm noticing a similarity between the two (especially the edit summaries on map games). Just though I'd take note, and sorry for any disruption I may cause. 9 もりや すわこ 19:21, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Sent a query into wikia. Lordganon 20:37, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

I had a feeling he was up to something. CrimsonAssassin 21:16, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Wikia can't find any connections, but I really have to think they are the same person, given how they both post. Leave a note on my page if you see anything else. Lordganon 07:20, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

I found another one that is similar, The River Nile-2. His edit summaries are similar to the last two. -Kogasa 14:52, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

User:DeanSims
I know it’s only a hunch, but I’ve been having thoughts that he might be Reb back. He’s extremely implausible on map games. He’s not nearly as implausible as him, but then again, we can’t be too careful. Also, could you check out him and this IP: 213.81.114.236, just to make sure the contributor is not Reb or Dean, as if it is, he would be cheating in the map game.. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:31, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

See the section called "Rebelsoldier" above. Already did that once, no reason to do it again. Lordganon 21:38, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Oh. --PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:44, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

User:Regentage
Maybe a sock? He's only made 3 edits, but all of them have been adding the 1983DD Germany template to nation profiles on Germany. Seems suspicious on how he knows how to do that on his first edit. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 01:14, September 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * By the looks of it, he's just a German-speaking appreciator of Doomsday with Wiki editing experience; apparently gained through previous contributions to the Creepypasta Wiki. Note that his first edit here isn't necessarily his first within the greater Wikia community. --XterrorX 02:17, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Harmless. Lordganon 05:35, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. I talked with him, and it seems true. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:11, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

RandomWriterGuy
I am letting everybody know that I have blocked RandomWriterGuy for one week. I am not proud of what I did, but his harassment has to stop. I have blocked him for the following reasons:


 * Continuing to not me about every "little" thing about my timeline.
 * Adding useless and copied content to articles.
 * Harassing and pressuring me to alter content.

I hope this is enough, because I still feel bad about what I have done. But I think many will agree with me, this needs to stop. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:09, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think some of his edits are attempts to get badges for the sake of getting badges as well. Like this random edit he did on the Principia Moderni Map game page to delete one letter to get the "edited a map game" badge. You should add that to the list as well. LurkerLordB 21:14, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. You already know that you have my support. Though, I'd have done longer, myself. Lordganon 01:55, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Eldwolf's Profane Flaming
Eldwolf, when I attempted to give him advice over how to play a map game, decided that the proper way to thank me for taking time to try to help him was to tell me to "get the f*** off my back b****" here. I am pretty sure this goes under the no harrassment rule. LurkerLordB 22:16, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Blocked for a few. Lordganon 22:50, October 2, 2011 (UTC) {C}We probably need to extend his block to be a permanent one. An anon has been going on a massive campaign of sabotage against Principia Moderni. He had replaced the main page with " would like to make 1 thing clear to all you low life pieace of shit. I hope you all burn in mother fucking hell. I want to join this game to have fun. From motherfucking day 1 you guys have been mean to me. Now your game is gone. Ban me now bitch"  {C}Yank 01:08, October 4, 2011 (UTC) {C}O_o I have been reverting his vandalism, and I agree. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 01:13, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. 1000 years.

Guys, I now have to fix your undoing. A lot of stuff that was already there is now gone. Yank, use your rollback next time, lol.

Lordganon 01:35, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Owen Clone?
There is a new user who is generally polite, thankfully. However, I have a feeling that he might be an Owen clone. Not only do they share the trademark '1983', but this user has poor spelling/grammar. Martin1983.

CrimsonAssassin 21:23, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

It also has the name Martin, which Owen has tried to use several times. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:35, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I do know that it's not him, more likely than not. Behavior is just too different, you know? And as much as he is an... idiot, I suppose is the best word, Owen does know procedure and wiki code. This guy doesn't seem to.

But rest assured, I am keeping an eye on him.

Lordganon 06:01, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

II was reading the wall of shame page. And his name came up why did he do those things he must of thaught what he was doing was foolish.Martin1983 09:43, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

say its not true! he's not back again!--Smoggy80 16:53, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. I've sent a query to wikia - him finding this and posting? Owen behavior. And, normally, Owen will post as an anon and defend himself. Note the lack. Lordganon 19:42, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

And Owen would have fought tooth and nail over an idea, no matter how implausible. As seen by his irrational need to see his home city survive Doomsday, no matter how many times we teel him it was struck. Martin didn't show that tendancy. When people said his Las Vegas page was too implausible (and badly spelt) he simply agreed and left it at that.

Yank 19:49, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Rhea, Oct-05 03:59 pm (UTC): {C Hi Lordganon,

''Unfortunately we're not able to check. Owen1983 hasn't edited since October 2010, and CheckUser results only go back by about 3 or 4 months. Sorry.''

Best regards,

Brandon Rhea {C Wikia Community Support

I know that I can still get them to trace, guy is just too damned lazy to go to the AS Wiki like the rest to get the IP. Can't push this guy, though, he's an ass. But, so you guys know the answer.

Lordganon 08:27, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

If we can't prove he's an Owen clone, but we still suspect he is then we'll have to keep an eye on him and treat him like any other new editor, if the new guy misbehaves then treat him fairly without tarring him with the Owen tag.--Smoggy80 16:45, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Holy crap! Brandon Rhea is everywhere! He runs that Star Wars RP site I go to all the time! O.o CrimsonAssassin 02:47, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Openly admitted to Ben that he was Owen. Perm block added, and articles deleted as per policy. Lordganon 08:50, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Broken redirects
I'm just curious, but should the Broken redirects also be deleted or leave them be? Because I noticed a few broken redirects that were not deleted from seeing the Special page for it. Just thought I'd point it out. And sorry if I marked a few, just decided since they lead no-where, I'd mark it up for deletion..and if this was a bad idea I'm sorry again... -Kogasa 16:38, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

Eventually, probably deleted. Power to you to mark them if you want, but it's not something high up on my to-do list. Lordganon 20:17, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian
Fair warning, guys: This guy got himself blocked after ignoring a warning, and now is freaking out/whining about it, quite loudly. Lordganon 21:23, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I swear, it's like he doesn't even get the point of a block. I originally gave him a week and he's kept posting on other IPs since. Between these two posts I found two more. Now, it's a month. Lordganon 21:30, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Frankly your first block was OTT and I protested and you continued to block every IP I tried to voice my opinion on. You are the problem here not me, heated debates happen everywhere and you insult me then I insult you and somehow mentioning the insult got me banned. Your abusing your power, simple. - Kunarian

What did he get blocked for originally? I looked over his last edits, and seemed just an argument over plausibility, not anything worth a whole week of a block. If the arguments were getting heated, maybe a day to cool off would be necessary, but a week seems excessive. LurkerLordB 22:01, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me? You are trying to get around a ban given to you after you entirely ignored a warning. There is no denying that.

I understand that you don't want to be banned, but really? Going as far as to claim that you've been insulted and abused? Really?

Really doesn't get the point of a block, eh?

Lurker, the block length doesn't matter. Fact is, he's trying to get out of it by violating it. As for what it was for, it was for insults he made during said debate, after being warned to quit.

Lordganon 22:06, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

True, I guess that now it is too late. I think a week was too long initially, but any sympathy he would have gotten from that was squandered by coming back on the IPs. Did you let him edit his own talk page when banned? If so, then you didn't try and silence his arguments, and he does deserve to get banned. LurkerLordB 22:08, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I think this should not be blamed on anyone. Kunarian is the LG of Map Games and he got frustrated because he did not want to change the map over and over again. Everybody has bad days. Although I do think a day might have been the best option. And Kunarian using anons, well he does have a lot of map games to tend to, so it would be understandable (he hasn't even finished the rules for Radioactive Tides, lol :D). Hope you consider this please. :) Imperium Guy 22:09, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

No. As a general rule, people who are blocked are not allowed to edit anything. I can only think of a single case where they remained able to edit it, and that was when I allowed Alex the right because it was a day block for a procedural matter he kept not not following (eight or so times, and after several warnings, if I recall). Note that he almost made me extend both by the extent of the protests over the matter.

I really wouldn't compare him to myself, at all. As for the IP's, the answer is no. If he'd have done a single complaint, then I might have reconsidered. But this? This is nuts. And allowing him to edit at all defeats the purpose entirely.

Lordganon 22:14, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to see the argument in question. Quite frankly if I understand this, it shouldn't be allowed for someone to block someone they are arguing against without consulting the community first, because that way it prevents abuse of power. I agree he probably should have been more compliant, his actions are explainable. I am curious as to whether he was allowed to edit his talk page, because if he wasn't then his actions are definitely excusable. It is important he has a chance to appeal. If not, he should have used his talk page to appeal. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:16, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Even with the editing turned off for the account, he still could have left anything there as an anon. Yet, he did not.

Lordganon 22:20, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

From what I see, he's only complained here. Him being compared as in being a great mod on Map Games is the context I compared it to. Kunarian is not a bad guy, he's just frustrated (if a little bit much). I do not think power has been abused, just a little stretched. :) Imperium Guy 22:22, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, it's been a lot more than here. All the map games he plays, my user page among others - all after the map games - there's been a lot. Basically, it's whining about actually having a warning acted on, and then not letting them go around the rules as an anon. Lordganon 22:27, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

@LG How was he supposed to know to post on his talkpage as an anon? He wanted to appeal and you gave no guidelines to him whatsoever on how to do so. Thats why there are the Miranda Rights. And how come you didn't bring this up to the community first? He's clearly not so harmful that he needs to be blocked immediately? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:30, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Calm down, Kenny.

Actually, you'll note he posted everywhere else as one. So, he knew he could. But he decided to spam the wiki about it. There's no guidelines about that, at all.

There was no need to bring it up with the community. As far as I was - and am - concerned - he went against a warning. Simple fact. And then he violated the block. Also simple.

Lordganon 22:36, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian was frustrated because he wanted the Central Powers to come of stronger in his map game. He might have possessed a good argument when he was banned that the ban was excessive, but ban evasion is a big no. He has complained on Oerwinde's talk page (and the Principia Moderni page, but that is excusable since I brought up what happened to his nation because he couldn't play while banned). Was he allowed to edit his own talk page when blocked? I think only the worst trolls should be not allowed to do that (people like Eldwolf) LurkerLordB 22:39, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

As I said Lurker, virtually no one that is blocked is allowed to edit their pages on their account. They can still normally do it as an anon.

Lordganon 22:42, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Okay I skimmed through the argument so I have a better idea of what's going on. LG, since you are not a part of the New Ottoman Empire, I assume you were trying to mediate the discussion. While Kunarian could have phrased himself more carefully, it appears as if you ended up inflaming the discussion, good intention or not. When you blocked him, it didn't solve the problem but only made him more angry.

I would even go so far as to say it is excusable that he continued to fight back, because the decision to block him was very unilateral. If I were him, I would be thinking WTF. His evasions of the block were a combination of his strong feelings about the topic and his unsureness of what to do. You should have let him edit his talk page. Maybe some people who want to appeal to their block don't want to give away their IP address? It is at least decency. Like LurkerLordB said, the only people who should be kept off their own talk pages are those that can't be trusted not to replace their entire talk page with profanity.

And you can't block him over one incident like this. It is clear that we should block people who have behavior like this on a normal basis, but who knows what could have happened? It could have been him in his right mind or someone else in his account, or even just a bad day in general. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:32, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

True, I cannot see any reason not to allow users to edit their own pages on their main accounts but to allow them on IPs. The results are the same, but by blocking the main account you give a sense of being unable to protest. It's not like it is hard to allow them to edit their own pages, it takes 1/4 of a second of extra work to uncheck the box to disallow them. LurkerLordB 01:13, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm in favor of taking a TSPTF vote to possibly release him on charges. If he really is so bad that we need to block him, he would probably do the same things again, and then we could worsen the consequences because he has been made aware of the policies. If he is acquitted and this never happens again, then it was best that he wasn't blocked at all because he understood his mistake. He has contributed greatly to the site as an up-and-coming map game player, and we shouldn't block him for a month on account of one incident. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:37, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Actually Kenny, it is simple. He was given a warning. Within 15 minutes, he went against it. And, for the record, I did not give him one after the first comment.

If you violate a warning, the punishment is simple. He can't even say I didn't warn him what would happen. Past that, complaining is one thing - what he did, differently entirely. It passed "one incident" the second he kept doing it. As for "It could have been him in his right mind or someone else in his account, or even just a bad day in general," one and three are no excuse, and two is a blockable offense in its own right - and a lot longer than a month.

As stated, virtually no one gets to edit their page. Do you know why? Because of exactly this. They turn their own pages into hate-rants. And in this case, note that he was banned for that type of reason. No way on earth that is changing. Heck, of all the user bans - and not just random IPs - we have, more than half, by my guess, raise hell all over. Primarily, this means their user pages.

And, I've reason now to suspect that he replaced my user page with trash.

As for IPs, they get banned almost instantly, to prevent the spread of the trash. The only way to turn off IPs is for the entire wiki, which just is not happening. So, we're left with the current situation. And, btw, he's used multiple IPs to "protest" all over the wiki, and to get around the block in general to play map games.

He was given a chance. And he decided to ignore it. After the original short block, he then decided to ruin even that by his actions, and mostly by simply pretending the block didn't exist. That's why it's currently at a month, rather than the original short block. His actions, simply put, dictated an extension. Heck, it's not even the protests that are the large part of that, but ignoring it in general.

Lordganon 07:17, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I like Kunarian but I think he has created a stock puppet by the name of LeonidaS. :/ Imperium Guy 20:23, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

He knows Kunarian IRL. There's really nothing we can do if the IP check turns up negative other than request that he doesn't post for Kunarian. CrimsonAssassin 20:38, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, its not a stock puppet!! :D Imperium Guy 20:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't conclude that so early.It's useless asking to a sockpuppet if he is a sockpuppet, because he always will say that he is not.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:19, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

It seems suspicious that someone would contact another person in real life to post for them on a wiki map game. I just cannot see that happening (unless Kunarian is totally obsessed). LurkerLordB 21:04, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

He contacted me on another wiki and said that he was obsessed to the extent that he would do so. An IP check is definitely needed now. LurkerLordB 21:27, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry guys, he's not a stock puppet. Look herw:http://conworld.wikia.com/wiki/Future_World. He created this. Imperium Guy 21:34, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Did you even check the history? LeonidaS has never editted that page. LurkerLordB 21:37, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm familiar with Kunarian on Conworlds. I don't ever remember seeing LeonidaS on Conworlds. Kunarian has no history of sockpuppeting. Also, Kunarian rarely or never edited on Alternate History before joining Principia Moderni. And it would make sense for him to be using other people to edit in protest to the ban. There is no definitive evidence of his sockpuppeting so we'll just deal with it fairly and drop the case until suspicious circumstances turn up.

I don't understand the problem with freedom of speech. Allow him to defend himself on his talk page, and if he abuses it, take away the privilege. The only reason you are taking away the privilege is to effectively silence dissent. He did nothing wrong on his userpage or talk page, so how can we take away the rights to defend himself just because there is a chance he will decide to dissent? Ignore it? More like he was crushed and began taking steps to get rid of the ban which he believed was unjustified.

You were arguing against him, and you unilaterally blocked him. Maybe it would be okay if you warned him and someone else blocked him, or someone else warned him, and you blocked him. But there are no checks on your power. That's my problem. That's why I'm proposing a TSPTF vote (or any vote for that matter). If the community believes you are justified, I will gladly stand back. But if not, we need to give Kunarian justice. And you are aware that you can't refuse this proposal or this site is officially a dictatorship. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:38, October 19, 2011 (UTC)'

I'm not part of the TSPTF, but I'd agree that Kunarian should be able to edit his talk page. CrimsonAssassin 00:04, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that all the TSPTF should vote on whether or not the ban is justified. I also agree that we should make it a rule that if people are banned, unless they are straight-up vandals LurkerLordB 00:07, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

For the record, Oer has stated that he supports my decision.

Perhaps you guys have missed it: No one is allowed to edit their talk pages after a block. He can gladly post a complaint - which he did - elsewhere, or even on his page, as an anon. Which he did. Numerous times, in addition to ignoring the block. No dissent has been cut off, at all. This has been the practice for years.

Again, let me state this: He was warned, and then he preceded to ignore it. The context has nothing to do with it. There are numerous checks on my "power." Notice how this posts exists and that I was the one who started it? That, and other mechanisms, are already in place. As for a vote, there is absolutely no need for one.

Whether or not the other person is a sockpuppet is entirely irrelevant. It's still an attempt to go around the block and continue to post, and thus gone.

Lordganon 09:07, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm missing something, but it appears that Oer said the ban was excessive, and he would bring up the fact that it was excessive should the block become controversial. But he said he would respect your decision by not reverting it immediately. I wouldn't call that support. Testimonial is bad. If he has an opinion, let him say it himself, don't try to give the illusion of support. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:36, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * What Kenny said above, as well as this: What difference exists between letting them edit their own pages on an IP and on their main account? They can still "turn their pages into hate rants" as an anonymous user as well as a logged-in user. It is the same effect, except it makes it seem like they don't have a way to appeal. Kunarian caused this great big problem anyways, even unallowed to edit his own talk page. If you let them edit that, then perhaps this would be concentrated on their talk pages and not spread all over. LurkerLordB 22:43, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Has this just been dropped now? The controversial, excessive ban is still in place, as is the strange policy of only letting banned users edit their talk pages as anons instead of logged-in users. Yet no explanations for my points, as well as Kenny & Oerwinde's have been provided. Such explanations must be given in order to refute Kunarian's claims that abuse of power has occured. LurkerLordB 03:28, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that most of the discussion on Oer's page has nothing at all to do with Kun. And that he respects my decisions.

To quote about Kun: "Kunarian on the other hand looked like a twit, though I think maybe a month is a bit much." The response being, on my part, "Kun's started as a week. His actions after the fact changed that." No which there is no comment.

The respect part, again, is about something else entirely, having to do with a difference of opinion about something else.

As for the pages? See that Kun posted everywhere? There's no benefit to allowing them to post on their pages. On each occasion that I've ever seen where it was allowed, it has spread. And this one would have, too. And, remember, that as anons they still have the block applied to them as well. That is final.

With regards to "abuse," I quote myself from earlier: "Again, let me state this: He was warned, and then he preceded to ignore it. The context has nothing to do with it. There are numerous checks on my "power." Notice how this posts exists and that I was the one who started it? That, and other mechanisms, are already in place."

All your points have been explained.

And, now from South, after he's read everything: "It would seem that you have things under control. I don't follow the map games anyway. I am sorry if I misjudged you. Have a good day."

Indifference, if not support, which means a lot coming from South. That is now 3 of 5 current administrators.

Lordganon 03:53, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

OK, now that they sent their opinions back, I say leave the ban in place. However, Kunarian did all of that as an anon! It helped in no manner to disallow him from editting his talk as a logged-in user, and probably just made him think he had no voice. LurkerLordB 11:33, October 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * On the whole, I've been staying out of this particular issue, because I couldn't really care less about the Map Games. While I agree that banned users should be allowed to edit their talk pages, you can't say that LG is "abusing his power" by not letting Kunarian edit his talk page, because (as he pointed out) that has always been the wiki's policy. If you want to argue that the policy should be changed, be my guest, but it would be a completely separate issue. Mister Sheen 11:49, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say indifference from 2 administrators constitutes a democratic majority, but whatever happens must. Although I suggest next time there needs to be a check on unilateral warnings/blocking, and let the blocked person know of his rights ahead of time so they don't spazz out and get further blocks because they didn't know the rules. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:38, October 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, it hasn't always been the Wiki's policy. I remember reading through Calthrina's protests and it appears as if she was allowed to edit her own talk page. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:54, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think Calthrina went through a few shorter blocks before her permanent ban, and it wouldn't surprise me if she kept protesting against them even when she was unblocked again. I'm not certain, though; I wasn't really involved with that, either. The point still stands: Kunarian being banned from editing his own talk page wasn't a special case of LG "silencing dissent", it's standard procedure. Mister Sheen 23:28, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Sheen's more or less right. The blocks on her and Owen, and all the trash they did, would be the basis of the policy, as that's when it starts appearing in the logs. Others since then have done nothing to help it, whatsoever.

And, it was not unilateral in the least. Nor was their reaction not "knowing" the rules - it was ignoring them entirely on their part.

Lordganon 23:53, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Should Banned Users be able to edit their own talk pages?
Due to the fact that this issue affects more than just Kunarian, I decided to move the discussion from his section to one of its own. The question is, why are banned users unable to edit their own talk pages when logged-in, but are able to edit it as anonymous users? Currently, LordGanon has provided two reasons for the policy: Users would edit their talk pages to create massive protests, and that is the way the wiki policy has been for years. However, as can be seen from the above Kunarian controversy, forcing him to edit his talk page as an anonymous user did absolutely nothing to restrict on the amount of complaining, and in fact created the image that opposition was being "silenced", perhaps making him even angrier. That leaves "that is the way we've always done it" to be the only remaining argument against allowing such edits to occure, an incredibly flismy argument at best.

Of course, the obvious response to this may be to simple forbid the editting of talk pages by anonymous users as well. However, I feel that this would be overly repressive. There are legitimate cases of biased moderation, misinterpetation, and other such events which would result in unfair bans. Furthermore, blocking all forms of dissent could lead to the user turning against the wiki and going Eldwolf on us. Therefore, giving the user some manner of communicating with the wiki following their ban is indeed necessary.

Reasons to allow banned users to edit their own talk pages, logged-in: Should a user abuse the edit the talk page capabilities, then they could be banned from that as well
 * 1) It lets them see that they are allowed to appeal their ban.
 * 2) It could help to concentrate their complaints on that page, instead of all over the wiki
 * 3) It causes no problem which letting them edit their pages as an anonymous user doesn't.
 * 4) It helps make sure that it is actually that user posting, instead of an imposter under an IP.
 * 5) It saves admins .5 seconds of time when they don't have to click that little box to activate the talk page ban

If there are any additional reasons for or against this feature are existent, then feel free to post them. LurkerLordB 01:01, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

First off, this is an admin policy - not even a wiki one in general. Therefore, it is up to the admin team to decide.

Past that....

It's not a question of "would." It has happened several times in the past. Kun being able to do it is because he manipulated his IP address to do so. Do you know how often it happens, to that extent? He's literally the second user and the third time it's happened.

It's also not a question of anyone being "silenced." He was able to very freely post a complaint off his account. He, however, was unable to complain once like a normal person - note, too, that the complaint was not removed? - and entirely ignored the block besides. This is the case for all blocks - if they have a complaint, it will become known. Yet, Kun went so far beyond that it's actually disturbing. That's his problem, not ours.

We actually can't make it so anons cannot edit talk pages. There is two settings with anons on this wiki. Exactly two. We can either let them edit the wiki, or not. That's our choices.

They can communicate. As Kun so deftly showed us. To say otherwise is entirely lubricious.

As for your list....

They can appeal. That much is pretty obvious. Posting as an anon, which with the case you are tripping over worked pretty well, is appealing the block. As you've seen, it's pretty obvious that it will be noticed and talked about.

With a normal, civil person, the complaints do stick in one place. Kun got so incensed at a legitimate block that he was no longer either. That's pretty obvious. He is virtually the only case where that has occurred. And that only because of the dozen IPs.

Three is not a reason.

It's pretty obvious when someone complains under an IP about a block that it is that person. If you want to get technical, we can have wikia match the IPs to the account, or just use a locator ourselves to find where the IP is from, and match the locations if we have one. But, as I said, it's pretty obvious.

Five is not a reason, either.

Overall, it is not "blocking all forms of dissent" that "could lead to the user turning against the wiki and going Eldwolf on us" - but allowing them to edit their page, is. All it does is keep the ball of garbage rolling. And, for the record, Eldwolf? Try looking at Owen1983 or Calthrina950 to see what happens when it's allowed.

We are not going to go through all of that Owen trash again. He was originally allowed to edit his page, which led to him going on for months, continually spammming, sockpuppeting, and posting trash, because he was encouraged by all of it. Have a look at it. That is why we don't allow it. For a very, very, good reason.

Lordganon 02:07, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

But, would Owen have not done any of that if he editted as an IP? If there was all of these months of sockpuppets and spam, wouldn't he have done this whether or not he could edit his page as an anon or as a user? Number 3 is very important, as it demonstrates that restricting them to their IP accounts has no different result then the main account. Own and Calthrina probably would have done the same thing, just using their IP accounts instead of their main ones. Number 5 was just pointing out that it really isn't any sort of special thing the admins have to go through to let this happen, so it would be easy to change the policy. LurkerLordB 03:35, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Owen never actually did any of that after the right being removed. Nor did the other. He did not post once on his own page after its removal, nor did the other on theirs.

Actually, the third one is not valid - We ban the IPs, too, as we see them, to prevent it. As with Kun, it's a way around the block, which will not be tolerated.

As stated: to be able to edit their own pages encourages them to continually post garbage. This has been seen to be the case each time.

Lordganon 06:36, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

You do have good points, but what if there is a genuine case of misinterpetation of something and someone gets wrongly banned? LurkerLordB 14:41, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

The way I see it is: Ultimately, letting banned users edit their talk pages isn't going to miraculously solve any problems, but it could give legitimacy to appeals; help concentrate spam; and make the spam easier to punish. Mister Sheen 16:43, October 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * We allow banned users to edit their talk pages:
 * Best case scenario: they appeal their ban legitimately and in the correct place.
 * Worst case scenario: they log out and spam everywhere as an IP (less likely to happen if we don't force them to use an IP; but can still happen).
 * Most likely scenario: They stay logged in and spam their talk pages with garbage (not too disruptive, as it is confined to a single talk page; and easily fixed by a more severe ban on their main account).
 * We do not allow banned users to edit their talk pages, and make them use an IP:
 * Best case scenario: they appeal their ban, hopefully in the correct place.
 * Worst case (and most likely) scenario: they spam the whole wiki with garbage (very disruptive and happens pretty much all the time).

I see it as a matter of privacy. People who don't want their location given away shouldn't be detracted from having an appeal. And anyone sane enough to care about their privacy will likely be sane enough to discuss in a calm manner. What annoys me, LG, is that you always treat people as simple organisms with no sense whatsoever. I understand there are exceptions, but most people who are blocked are perfectly sane and are willing to discuss and follow the guidelines of the community, as with Kun, but are momentarily angry because of the block — and I may add, because of not being allowed to edit their talk page. They shouldn't be punished by making them give away their location and IP address to the Internet. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:22, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * I can see your point about privacy; but I definitely don't think we should let anyone appeal a block because they were 'momentarily angry'. It doesn't matter how long you were 'angry' for: if you broke the rules, you broke the rules. The only reason you should appeal a block is if you didn't deserve it; and if somebody's only defence is that they're normally a rational user, then their block is completely justified. Mister Sheen 23:15, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * In my examples, we're assuming the block was unjustified or only partly justified, which is bound to happen sooner or later, as we came pretty close during the Kunarian case. If the block is completely justified (if everything was black and white), then hypothetically, it wouldn't matter what people write on their talk page. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:15, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

There is always ways to complain about blocks. To say otherwise is foolish, at best. And, if it is truly unjust, someone else can and will notice it. This wiki is a community, remember?

Sheen, we have had a single person spam the wiki with complaints - Kun. Even Owen did not do that, though his sockpuppeting is something else. It is far, far, away from being likely that a user will do what Kun did. No other blocked user has ever done anything like that at all. We are talking about a single occurrence, which is more than likely never happening again.

As stated before, there is no set place to appeal a block. If someone wants to appeal, they can post almost anywhere and do it as an anon. It matters not where, because someone will see it.

So, by allowing them to edit their pages, the only difference is that they fill it with crap. And that is not a good thing.

As stated before, all I have to do to get a location is ask wikia about it. This is the internet. If you are worried about your location, you're not on it or you are hiding behind a dozen routers. Simple truth. Privacy is a non-issue, because it does not exist.

Sheen has it bang on about anger. And, as I already noted, blocks can be easily protested.

No matter how justified the block - and, Kun's is entirely justified, for the record - people continue to complain. Owen's block, which only a fool - or Owen, lol - would argue is not justified, was protested and insulted quite.... vigorously? despite how massively justified it was, and still is. There's been a few others where they've left hate mail on their pages, on admin talk pages, other talk pages... list goes on.

Really, if someone gets mad about it, they will be an ass no matter what we do. Now allowing them the privilege - and that is exactly what it is - of editing their talk page doesn't confine the trash. It just spreads it, and attracts attention from other users, who comment on it and encourage/spread it even more. Again, look to Owen.

And, as stated, if the block is unjustified, there are mechanisms in place. We have far more than one admin around here, and even more people than that who can block. Beyond that there is the junior members of the team, and dozens of users beyond that. If something is truly unjustified, it will be heard, and loudly. Simple fact.

Lordganon 05:22, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * You're arguments make sense, but you can't be insensitive to privacy, LG. You realize how much money is spent yearly by organizations to promote internet safety and privacy? Also, Wikia policy on Special:CheckUser: "For privacy and trust reasons, its use is limited, but any admin of a wiki may request a check from Wikia staff when necessary." Privacy does exist, and we are no one to go against Wikia policy. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:00, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. Millions - possibly billions, even - are spent on the promotion of internet privacy and security a year. Three guesses as to why the number increases every year.

Actually, we're not going against policy. I suggest you read that description again. As even that description says, I and any other admin can ask them a lot of things. IPs being visible has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Privacy doesn't exist. Sure, there are blocks up, true enough, but does it exist, truly? No.

I'm not insensitive to the matter. Just realistic enough to know that the information is already available. You need to recognize that fact, along with remembering that most people don't notice, and even less care.

Lordganon 04:27, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

IP Blocked
Hi all. I am appealing a ban on one of my IP's. I tend to use two IP's, one school and one home and my school one got blocked by a TSPTF at around 23:00 UTC 30 October. He marked me as spam... but I was editing my talk page and Principia Moderni... I need that IP open to access PM during the day in Australia.Scandinator

No IP was blocked at all on that day, and all of the ones around it were definite spam, having nothing at all to do with either of those pages.

And, all trace back to the USA, but two. One from Italy - which is a fake and I know it - and another from NZ that wrote "Jew" all over my user page.

At this point, you're going to have to tell me the IP, since the info you gave has no reference point in the block logs.

Lordganon 12:13, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Sure i'll try to record it tomorrow. And the user that blocked meScandinator 09:36, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

No worries the problems gone already thanks for the support.Scandinator 10:50, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Eldwolf Is Back
Just told me IRL he has a sockpuppet. Be on the lookout, guys. CrimsonAssassin 17:49, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Owen1983
(Note: I am not a member of the TSFTP, but this maybe important)

I have found Owen1983 in this wiki. I did find that he is more popular on this wiki. I also discovered his grammar and spelling did imporve a bit. Is this possible Owen did have a change of heart, and if so, is it possible he can come back to this wiki?

RandomWriterGuy 22:17, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Please don't provoke him. Just leave him be. CrimsonAssassin 01:58, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Owen somehow managed to weasel his way into being in charge of that wiki long ago. His... idiocy? works well there.

His spelling and grammar have not improved, at all. Heck, the posts that have decent versions of either that I've seen him do on there - whenever I look in on it to make sure that he isn't trying something - are all ones that are actually copied from elsewhere word for word.

There are a number of things that I've seen him pull in the last year, including trying to copy, word-for-word, timelines from this wiki to other ones.

In short, he's not had a change of heart, at all. Nor is he ever coming back.

As Crim said: Leave him be.

Lordganon 03:19, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

You know what, I guess I have no choice either. I'll agree with you.

RandomWriterGuy 22:10, November 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * His spelling and grammar were irrelevant, anyway. Those things are annoying but not bannable. Benkarnell 05:04, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

2012 Stirlings
Hey, someone drop me a message when the nominations start, will ya? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:46, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I will try to remember to do so. Lordganon 23:11, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Secondary IP blocked
Sorry, its me again the IP I mentioned eariler is still blocked but my school has a couple of different IP's. The one I need unblocked to post during the day is 153.107.33.152. Thanks.Scandinator 06:55, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and the block was by a guy called Charitwo. He has only 13 edits... How is he an admin??Scandinator 06:59, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Charitwo is a member of the Global Spam task force, and has powers over all wikis.

When I look up that IP in the block logs, the message I get is "The requested IP address or username is not blocked."

Nor has Charitwo ever blocked anyone on this wiki.

Talk to wikia, as your problem has nothing to do with us. By my guess, it'd be a global block of some sort - in which case, it'd be something they would not reverse.

Lordganon 07:36, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not member of TSPTF, but this is important
I've discovered an (likely) ASB-ish and future history timeline: United We stand, Divided We fall

Of course, see the world map of that TL, and there's written like this: "The world in 2020"

Wijata Mateusz 09:19, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

ASB is not a reason to get rid of anything.

Thank you for letting us know, but we do look for these things and will notice them on our own. As an fyi.

Lordganon 14:23, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I forget to say, that TL is very implausible Wijata Mateusz 20:09, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that it shows the world in 2020 means it violates the "no future history" rule of this wiki.

Yank 21:06, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

DeanSims
Recently, I heard that DeanSims has been cheatin gon map games and often denies that. I've been to th talk pages of Greater Europe and Fractured America, and he has been cheating and fasly accusing and all of that stuff. Is it possible we should ban him? RandomWriterGuy 20:52, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

A one off incedent happened on FA but that was one off. He doesn't cheat on map games. I've played with him, I know. Imperium Guy 20:55, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

That's not entirely true. I remember one incident in FA, he was at war with me or someone else (I forget) and he was saying the most implausible things, claiming he had conquered countries, without making an algorithm. When I questioned him on it he said that he could do whatever he wanted because he's the mod and he created the game. I almost called him on that but he deleted the posts and his implausibility. But this post is pretty null and void since the TSPTF doesn't deal with implausibility on map games. ChrisL123 21:00, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

No, he did not cheat at any magnitude on Fractured America that could warrant being banned, he just controlled my nation for 1 turn and made a single implausible post. I don't know what exactly is occuring on Greater Europe, but I cannot find any complaints on that talk page other than his editing of an algorithm slightly to his advantage, an issue that appeared to be resolved within a couple posts. You were not involved within either of these issues, therefore there is no reason for you to be the one posting this. If he really had been cheating enough to be suspended (which he wasn't!) then those he cheated against or who called him out on it would be the ones to post this, not people who have absolutely no involvement. LurkerLordB 21:03, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, he's done nothing to ban him over.

Actually, if someone is consistent with being ASB, and ignores directives to stop from the game moderators, they can come talk to us about it. Normally, we won't deal with it, but if they continue to refuse to follow the rules, you can at the very least ask. If it happens, you can ask me and I will warn them, on a case-by-case basis - but such a request must come from the mods of said game.

Lordganon 21:22, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Tagging ASB Timelines
Can we tag any timeline found ASB? I did a few already. RandomWriterGuy 23:31, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

...And none of the ones you did were actually ASB.

Take it to the talk page of the timeline if you feel it is such.

Lordganon 00:06, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

RWG, slightly outlandish timelines are not ASB. Nor are timelines you don't like. Fed (talk) 00:09, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Iam not saying I hate htese timelines. I am just saying that they are too ASB to be real. RandomWriterGuy 00:25, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Um, I wonder, in which way are a timeline where a new Chinese dynasty arises or Temujin is stopped, or even more outlandish TLs such as Sonic starting in 1929, New Orleans being destroyed by Katrina (it nearly did OTL), or the Allies dividing Europe into tiny are comparable to this sort of stuff, at any level. Seriously. Fed (talk) 00:49, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I've got to say, if I was the author of an article and someone just dropped ASB on it like that, I would be very unhappy with the user and this site. If I was an anon here and someone did that to me, I wouldn't have come back. This leave horrible impressions on this site and its editors. CrimsonAssassin 17:55, December 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. Some writers deliberately aim for ASB (Zombie timelines and the like), and they can choose to place their pages in the Alien Space Bats category.  But do not go moving other people's pages into that category, that would be very rude.  Benkarnell 08:04, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion to Owen
I recently typed a message to Owen about how he deserved to be banned from this Wiki. I also told him for the next Stirling Awards, I will nominate him fo the best ban.

I also told him (and something no admin did before) that to put him in the admins' shoes and how he would like it if someone like him did bad stuff in the wiki and he had to handle it.

Just a reminder, nothing else more.

RandomWriterGuy 00:33, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

He won't be eligible.

He knows full well what it would be like - he admins the Alien Species Wiki. His behavior had no excuse, whatsoever.

Nor was it your place to say anything to him at all, RWG. That's overstepping your boundaries, and presenting yourself as something you are not. It's not breaking any rules, technically, but.... please don't do it again.

Lordganon 01:12, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I recently got a message from Owen, saying he is sorry for his actions and said how being banned helped him learn his lesson. Check out my page in this wiki to find the evidence. Yet his grammar still didn't improve. What do you think about it?

RandomWriterGuy 03:10, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

RWG, let him be. Fed (talk) 03:18, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Heard it all before. He's lying through his teeth to you. As myself and Fed have now said, let him be. Lordganon 03:23, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

This is the second time that you have attempted to get him unbanned off of this wiki RandomWriterGuy. Why do you want him back so bad? LurkerLordB 03:33, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want him badly. I'm just saying if he's learned his lesson so he can come back. RandomWriterGuy 05:21, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

The whole point of banning for so long was that the previous shorter bans had not caused him to learn his lesson that writing rubbish and more importantly writing Highly offensive messages on peoples talk pages was totally unacceptable!

He is incapable of learning this lesson, hence the life ban. He also repeatedly devised sock puppets to spread more abuse and nonsense once banned.

He will not be unbanned however much you seem to like him and fight his corner...EVER. leave him be! and please do not bring this before the TSPTF again as we will not change are minds.

He has been banned for a completely valid reason and for the correct amount of time --Smoggy80 17:57, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Fine. I'll agree to keep his ban.

RandomWriterGuy 22:47, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Lord Phoenix
I have some breaking news: Lord Phoenix, an admin of Alien Species Wiki, has responded to my message to Owen. Here's the mesage.

Apparently, he does want to speak to this wiki about Owen and see if it is true. When he comes, make sure you tell him everything.

RandomWriterGuy 22:30, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

He believes that you were harassing an admin. Instead of Owen breaking a rule, this time it was you. He now wants to chew the admins here out because of what you told him and may block you if you don't. CrimsonAssassin 22:46, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

That's what happens when you attack the banned users at other wikis, RWG... We told you to let him be didn't we? (Now we're going to get a "close encounter"... Sorry, had to do that. :P) Fed (talk) 22:52, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. CrimsonAssassin 22:53, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

I am very sorry. i was not trying to be rude. I was just angry at him. RandomWriterGuy 22:59, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Fine. I see the ordeal has been dealt with earlier so RWG will not be punished for any of his actions. Even so, your wall of shame is a great way to feed the trolls, but it's not my place to tell you how to govern your wiki. Lord Phoenix  at your service

I have no control over what he does in this wiki but uf he he herasses me on ASW I will block him 65.49.14.59 07:14, December 3, 2011 (UTC) Owen1983
 * I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. RWG from my cursory look at his edits has been a drag on the wiki's reputation.  Block him and be done with him.  Mitro 15:02, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

War of the Gods Map Game
Currently, there is a map game being made called "War of the Gods". It is a good idea, and similar roleplays are really fun on other forums. However, its not alternate history, it's just a mythological fantasy game. Even if a history element is brought in, it violates the "No Cross, No Crown" policy. Therefore, it seems like it should be deleted. LurkerLordB 18:35, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

For starters, you're wrong about it violating NC/NC.

But, you're right about it not really being alternate history.

Lordganon 21:23, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Gah, I'm starting to regret ever introducing the NCNC terminology... I'd like to quote it: "discussions on religion and politics should center on our fictional timelines and not devolve into debates on politics and religion in real life (OTL)... it's a general rule of thumb or a guideline, not an ironclad law." You really can't really "violate" it because it's not a "policy." It's a standard of behavior.  Maybe our wiki's at the point where folks have trouble understanding loose standards and self-regulated behavior; if that is the case, I guess we need to scrap it and write some actual "rules."
 * LG's right, of course, that this sort of fantasy seems to go beyond "wacky ASB alternate history" and become something else. But of course that's not a clear distinction either.  Benkarnell 14:14, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Lordganon
Fellow althistors, today I bring up in question an order to impeach User:Lordganon from his position as Brass and move him to Lieutenant, and I do so as humbly as possible. User:LordGanon (we may refer to him from now on as LG) has been an extremely dedicated and hardworking TSPTF member. However, if we were to compare him to two of the requirements for impeachment. we would see he exhibits a superlative in both:


 * They have have not been fair, restrained, and/or constructive in their dealings with other editors.
 * They consistently refuse to follow the conventions and guidelines of this community.

He has a large reputation around this site for repeated unconstructive criticism, and inability to cooperate with the community. He also has been known for his extremely condescending tone of voice, which he often uses against newer members of this site. It is not the content of the arguments but the way in which he puts them across, arrogantly and unrestrainedly, that is highly objectionable. I could easily reopen old scars, and incorporate old arguments into this impeachment request, but that would just cause more pain to the community. I am focusing on something very specific and that is LG's overall behavior and interaction with other members.

I bring this up now, during an ongoing argument, because I continually see the same problem rearing its head, and that is that LG has significant power in that he will often maintain his own policies regardless of what the community wants.

I have compiled a list of times when he has contradicted all or a significant part of the community. They are based on my personal experience, and are by no means exhaustive. I cannot stress enough that him having such an active position will almost surely cause him to be against the community occasionally, but what we are focusing in on is his handling of each dispute. Please know I am taking this extremely seriously and for that reason I have included any and all evidence that exists, for reference.


 * The notorious Castellón argument: essentially this was a question of whether the article Castellon (1983: Doomsday) should be graduated and how. Relevant discussions: 1 2 3 4
 * The Macau argument: a question of whether I had permission to move the capital of Macau to another town, possibly Kaiping or something. This is an example of him taking a small change onto a site-wide level, and at least two other brass and most community members disagreed with him. Relevant discussion can be found here: 5 6 7 8 (appears to have erased so I found it in history) 9.
 * My own nomination for Constable. He didn't necessarily do anything wrong besides vote and voice his opinions, but I am nevertheless including it here for completeness. 10
 * The Kunarian argument: Of whether he should have been blocked, and of whether blocked users should be allowed to edit their own talk pages. 11 12
 * The current Stirling Award argument, debating whether Principia Moderni should be exempted from the strict rules of creation for the Stirling Awards. 13 14

You may note that LG "won" four out of five of these arguments, with the exception of the constable nomination, and all of which involved other brass. But how is it possible that he would win the other four, if we are a fair and democratic community? Essentially he will continue arguments until their results have satisfied him. Most decidedly this ends up hurting the community in the long run, with so much time going into destructive arguments instead of constructive articles. Is this how our site is destined to run?

An outline a list of traits that make him unsuitable for office at the moment:


 * Inflexibility: The current argument on the Stirling Awards is only one example of his treating people essentially like numbers. He will always follow canon, rules, and other established things to exactness, and is unwilling to deal with the human aspect. Same often applies to his blocking patterns, in which he often blocks without considering each individual case carefully. My own personal anecdote is when I had prepared several maps of Macau, that were based on my knowledge of the region, including my first .svg map, all of which which took an excessively long time. LG had insisted that the borders did not match up exactly with what was put in a previous map, although they were very close, so I must immediately change them. There went hours of my work… That is not the whole story, but he clearly did not care, if you would read the discussions. LG lacks the human aspect of TSPTF, and lacks restraint in carrying out policies. He treats his job as a formula, and not interaction with human beings. Exhibit A Exhibit B. Compare to "canon": Exhibit C. Relevant discussion can be found here: 15 16 17 18 < (18 also applies to the Macau argument above)
 * Overall tone of voice: the biggest complaint is how he speaks to other users. He constantly uses condescending remarks. Many of the comments are particular hurtful and insensitive. One only has to read a short excerpt of any of his discussions above.
 * Article vigilantism: He especially operates on 1983: Doomsday, harassing newer users on the details of their articles. While his arguments are often valid, he rarely to help work with the contributors to canonize the article. I find it no coincidence that 1983: Doomsday has not found any major new contributors in the past months.
 * Autocracy: At this point he has on multiple occassions blocked other users against which he was arguing without a third party. As we have seen above, he has severely abused his power by refusing to collaborate. There is nothing wrong with him not agreeing, and it is not totally bad that he makes his own executive decisions. The issue is that he has never sincerely honored anyone's protests, including other Brass. Every time someone proposes a vote for any non-conventional purpose, he will usually respond something to the effect of "That's not how it works around here, we go by consensus." Powergaming?
 * Misrepresentation others' opinions: This is maybe one of the more serious infractions. When in an argument, he will constantly create the illusion of support by citing other users. This has occurred in Castellon, Macau, and also on the Scramble for Africa (Map Game) talk page. He will phrase his statements as "xxxx, and User:xxx will agree with me." Even when offering quotes, he will take advantage of ambiguities in others' wording. The worst part is that he uses others in this way without them knowing. User:Oerwinde and User:Southwriter may check the talk page for the Stirling Awards and judge whether my statement is accurate in regards to the particular case. He also has misrepresented my own opinion to my face, and this is especially true in the Castellon argument.
 * Attempts to psychoanalyze others: This came up in each of the above five arguments, except maybe the Kunarian one. He has accused me and others several times of bias, when trying to argue. During the Macau argument he told me that I have some connection to the city/town of Kaiping, even after repeatedly I would say I have absolutely no connection.
 * Always having to have his way: Must I say more? I can't recall any major instance where he admitted he was wrong, unless it was to cover up another wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I focused mainly on my on anecdotes because they are most readily available to me. He has carried this reputation since before I joined, and on channels which I do not follow. I am aware that I am not alone in feeling repeatedly harrassed by him, and I will not hesitate to say that his behavior in the above cases is not acceptable against any user in any case.

In general, he would become a better contributor without holding such a high position on the site. His work has proved to be exceptional, and he has proved to be the most dedicated member in his duties, and I commend him unconditionally. However, if he is to continue holding a major position in the TSPTF, which is essentially built on interactions with other contributors, he must learn to make everything more positive. I do not believe that any of this will completely stop if LG is moved to Lieutenant. Nor do I think that moving him to Lieutenant should affect his continuous dedication to the site. Moving LG to Lieutentant will give him the opportunity to have more feedback from the community, and thus bring back the synergy our community has been known for. Once he comes to this realization, I will be the first to see him placed back in his position as Brass.

Althistors, please vote below. I do not expect you to read through all evidence, but at least get an idea of what is going down here. I ask that you do not feel pressured in any way by me or LG, but that you only use your best judgement based on the evidence provided and your own personal experiences. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:50, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I do disagree with him on the Stirlings thing, but that alone isn't enough to impeach someone. Kunarian was asking for it with his behavior, so that's no problem for me at least. I can't judge him on those older things though, so I'll wait and see as too how this goes before casting a vote. LurkerLordB 02:32, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not so much as an impeachment entirely, more of a downgrade, if that's the right word. I think I'll stay neutral in this (since I should be affirmed a constable in a day or two). ChrisL123 02:52, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow. I am surprised that Kenny actually stooped this low. Technically, since he didn't come even close to even making an attempt at trying to follow the rules Mitro put up at the top of this section, I really should remove it for that reason - and a good one, may I add - but I suppose that would only prove his point. I can definitely say that almost none of that post is actually true. He's using bits and pieces of things in an attempt to prove a point. I suppose now instead of actually editing on Thursday, I now need to respond to all of these false accusations. How pleasant. Lordganon 07:40, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * After reading through the ones that were before me, I still can't really decide. The thing with Peru sending wheat to Spain seemed sort of overblown and ridiculous, but I couldn't tell whose fault it was. The moving the capital part was different, for it seemed that Lordganon was in the right, but he went overboard by accusing Kenny of being biased because his ancestors were from a place vaguely near the area in question. The map game one I couldn't make any sense of, so I won't be voting to impeach Lordganon, but I won't be voting against it (unless one of the two has sort of ridiculous behavior in the discussion, then I may vote against that person) LurkerLordB 18:33, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * As the person who wrote this policy I probably should comment, which LG is right about Kenny not following the rules. First rule states "User who feels a TSPTF member should be impeached from his position, must first contact the TSPTF on their talk page with their complaint and attempt to work out the issue with them." That has not happened. If Kenny still wants to address this issue, he should move his complaint to the TSPTF talk page. If the TSPTF is not able to come up with a resolution, then a vote can be brought to the community. Mitro 21:57, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * We may have our ups and downs with LG, but I think he is an good contributor to the wiki and helps users, both old and new. Enclavehunter 23:37, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, this is a very controversal issue. There will be for and against. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 10:34, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously, why are people still discussing this here, did no one read my post? I bolded the important part in case you missed it but I will say it again: this should be on the TSPTF page! Mitro 14:18, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, just so you guys know, I would like to address that I will not be mounting any further arguments on the topic… I am at the point where I no longer have time to do extensive discussions. For that reason, whether or not this goes through, I will simply comply with anything the admins tell me to do, because I have no time to do otherwise in my contrbutions. And I apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused by posting this in the wrong place. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:03, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * While it appears that I am one of the few people who actually got real asistance along with his criticism, I agree with this proposal. I have seen at least one bright-faced new user become discouraged from posting due to his cruel insults. To be properly "criticism" would mean that he would actually attempt to guide the user to making it better. He has mostly not done so, and has only expressed a desire to prove his superiority over the victim by putting their creations down. I not only agree to this proposal, but think it's not going far enough. To be a proper impeachment would mean that his membership in the TSPTF be totally revoked until he learns to play nice with others. If he was any worse than he is we wouldn't be impeaching him. We would be discussing the possibility of blocking him.Yank 22:00, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Has anyone actually read the process of impeachment? First, this is the part where calm and reasonable minds can discuss the proper course to take. The whole point of bringing it to the TSPTF in the first place is to avoid impeachment unless there is no other way to resolve the issue. This is not a vote, Yank. That comes later only if negotiations here break down. So before thinking up of punishments, why doesn't everyone pump the breaks and come up with an actual solution. Mitro 00:21, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would not have posted this if I had not believed impeachment was the only option, but if I can be proved wrong, it would be all the better. At any rate, I cannot participate in any further discussions for at least two weeks. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:18, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think some people just need to understand that this is the internet. Our own little corner that we like to keep a bit tidier than the rest, but the fact remains. If LG comes off as harsh, well, in his position if he was a softie people would walk all over him. He might be too rough at times, but his dedication to this place more than makes up for a few scrapes that people have encountered, in my opinion. At most, LG is a necessary evil, because without him and guys like him, the cogs and gears start spinning every which way, and there'd be utter chaos. The people need someone to keep things running smoothly, and they need to think that that someone is doing his job, or else they lose their faith in the system. LG can indeed seem to be the crotchety old cop who's too old for this crap, but that's because he's only recently stepped into the shoes of Mitro, who was practically a god among men when he was Adminning. No one, certainly not LG is going to look good trying to follow that act, but the point is he is doing what he is because he shows undying loyality to this wiki, not to people's feelings. If you feel he has hurt you in the past, think about whether or not he really, truly was trying to hurt you, or if he was just throwing the book at you and you failed to catch it. He's not a bad guy people, and he's sure as hell not a tyrant; if he was, I'd probably be permabanned for a rebellion that I may or may not have started some time ago. You're overreacting, is what I'm trying to say. Jazon Naparleon 04:52, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * @Mitro Thanks for the help. Can always rely on you for an even voice. @Enclave Thank you for your support. @Chris Good call on your part. @Lurk Neutral is good enough for now, I guess. @Imp I suppose that you could say that, lol. @Jason Thanks for the support. And I think that sums up a lot of things pretty good. Everyone's got their own style of management/adminship, and this is mine, which a lot of people do tend to forget around here. @Yank Have to say, that is rather disappointing, considering the number of times I've helped you, defended you, ignored outbursts, tried to keep order in response to said outbursts, and ignored violations. But, you're entitled to your opinion. @Topic Have to say, this is taking longer than expected to reply to, lol. Lordganon 08:26, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * @LG thanks for empowering (nearly) everyone to enjoy freedom of speech… @Jazon, you have valid points, but I will make a small interjection. During your "rebellion," he could not have been a tyrant because he was a lieutenant (or lower?) at the time, and therefore still had people (brass) who could put a check on him. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 08:33, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * To be completely honest LG, I find that in these last two posts in the topic, you're tone has actually improved, and you appear to be more meticulous with your wording to avoid offending anyone, what I would always expect from a Brass. Whatever you are doing, would you please continue for the rest of your time on this site. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 08:43, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * The only way I think this can be resolved is putting less pressure on LG. See some of the trolls he has had to face. Anybody would get pissed at times. I think we need more people to do the patrolling he does and I think the new TSPTF members could possibly the answer. I have to agree with Jazon and I will have to say that Dk also has a fair point, but in my opinion more people patrolling and helping is the answer. (Serious Issue, no smiley!) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 10:41, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this could be achieved by promoting a new beauracrat or two? That would lighten the load on LG while, for want of a better phrase, make it easier to keep him in check. South and Ben were both absent for the last few months so obviously there wasn't anyone to properly contest LG, or support him. Promoting a more active member may go some way to helping the situation overall. Fegaxeyl 15:00, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Then I'd like to withdraw my support for this proposal. If LG is truely getting better I would like to apologize for my rudeness.

Yank 15:23, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree on promoting a beauracrat or two. BTW, I didn't exatly mean it as keeping him in check. What happens is: pressure -> frustration -> and so on... So less pressure. I have noticed that LG is always better when they are others patrolling with him. It gives him time to contribute more and do what he wanted to when he first joined the site. People with me? [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 16:25, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Mitro pulled out because of lack of time to actually contribute, so I think this would be a move of mercy. I think we still operate on a basis of 'as many admins as needed', but in fact it should be 'more than necessary'. It's not exactly as if we have to make any sacrifices to support a larger force of empowered users, which will cut their workloads equally and give everyone more time to contribute. I agree with Imperium Guy. And forgive me if this sounds like a snipe, but if we give LG and our other admins the chance to be creative, then perhaps new users will receive genuinely constructive criticism, since they'd have the time to consider it and even help out to some extent. Fegaxeyl 21:06, December 16, 2011 (UTC)