Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

Sign Up?
I really want to sign up for this game, seeing how sucessful the last one was. However, I'm afraid I'll screw up the rules (which seem solid but are extensive and complicated) and be a detriment rather than an asset to the game. Should I sign up? CourageousLife (talk) 02:26, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

It will be fairly easy to learn all the rules, especially since many won't come into play until later. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:04, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to sign up for this game. The first one sounded really interesting, but by the time I heard of it, it was already in the 1950s. Ehh... do I sign up here?

The Royal Guns (talk) 13:08, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Is there a rule against copy and pasting moves for turns? If not, there should be it makes the game horridly boring. PM I towards the end got really boring because all you would ever see was "amp up the military." It would be better and more interesting if people varied their posts.AP (talk) 17:18, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Though it is boring, there's no real rule against it. The main trouble with copy-pasting is that often that means the player doesn't read other peoples posts. But that doesn't need a specific punishment, as it usually brings about its own punishment. (see RWG's Persia in the last game)

TBH, I'm starting to get a bit bored with PM1, that's why I can't wait for this one to start. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:56, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Amazing how I feel the same. Right now I'm waiting for 1999, I'm going to create a 9/11-esque Red Claw terrorist attack. Just to spice up the game a little bit.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Erm...are we going to paly this here or is there going to be a page for it (and not Lurk's subpage)? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:29, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to move the page, changing it's title from "User:LurkerLordB/Principia Moderni II" to "Principia Moderni II (Map Game)" when the last turn begins in PM1, with the game beginning 24 hours later as PM1 closes. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:34, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

IKR! The first one has got boring, the only reason why I am not warring over the significant amount of territory lost. :P Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:56, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Moderator-in-chief
Last game we had a moderator-in-chief, Detectivekenny. Though we don't really need one, it did make some things easier. To clarify, the powers a moderator-in-chief would have: I nominate myself to be lead moderator, as I have taken a fairly leading role in developing this game. However, other long-term, active moderators of the last game, such as Collie, Yankovic, or Crimson could be the leader as well, if they wanted. Would people want a leader, and does anyone else want to be the leader? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:31, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) To appoint moderators
 * 2) To moderate other moderation (say whether a mod event/ruling should be valid)
 * 3) Provide basic leadership (sometimes, just having one person to be the leader helped make things easier)

I think we should abolish the post. I believe we should simply have capable moderators (meaning those who are capable to do their assigned jobs) who are also able to balance each other out. If everyone does want a chief, though, you have my vote, Lurk. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:47, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I could have a shot at being a mod once again? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 01:27, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

You are still signed up as normal mod, would you want to run for mod in chief? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:45, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Naw, I think you'd make a better 'in chief. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 03:04, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Lurker, you've got my vote. You've done a heck of a lot since Kenny left. However you won't receive any additional powers. I'd also like to ask if I could get the role of PM tutor for new players. I find I am relatively proficient at teaching other people... Scandinator (talk) 06:23, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I vote for Lurker.i ain't focused enough to do this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:56, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Time Zones?
Hey everyone, since there is a lot of attention here I propose to change the start time of a turn from 00:00 UTC to 12:00 UTC. This allows for me to consistantly post the disaster events (which affect the entire spin of the turn) and also allows less confusion since a turn will start on the same date for everyone instead of year x starting today at 10am for me and yesterday at 4pm for LurkerLord. If this happens I will be happy to start off each new turn and post maps at the start of every 5 years since the turn starts at 10 (or 11 during DST) pm which is a much easier time for me to edit than 10am or 11am (I am in class or exams :S). Since I will be graduating in 4 weeks and won't start uni till March its not a major issue atm but will become one after I start university. Scandinator (talk) 06:37, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Actually 0000 UTC is a bad time for several players who live in the UK or far west, like California or the Pacific Coast. I agree in changing it to 1200 UTC. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:42, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Omg, that would make things SOOO much easier for me (and probably Von) to post!! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:58, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Having it start 12 hours earlier makes it so I can't post any moderator events, as I will be in school at 8:00 AM for me, so I would prefer keeping it at 8:00 PM for me, when I can easily edit. However, if more people will prefer to have an earlier start, I can adjust. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:05, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I also wouldn't be able to do those events on lurk's place, as at 12:00 utc, i would be unavailable.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:21, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps another time would work? I would be availible for usually a couple hours before 0:00 UTC, and usually for up to three hours after. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:32, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well then lets see when the mods can post. My times are between 2000 to 2130 and 0600 to 1300 UTC(one hour earlier between October and April). Changing the time will affect several mods and players so we will have to see when is the best time and not everyone will be happy... However the mapmaker and disaster mod need priority and later so will the revolt mod. Since Lurker and Collie live about -5 and me on +10 I suggest a time of 1000 UTC? Scandinator (talk)

To be honest, shifting the time more than a 3 or so hours away from 0:00 won't really help me at all, so if you need it changed, we could probably change it then.

Or, we could do the thing where we make the mod events and the new turn before people can edit it, so we all can post events without having to wait for the new turn to begin. The only problem with this is that people could meta-game and see events coming up that would effect their nation and edit their turn accordingly.

Also, for this game, can we please enforce the rule where you can edit only on one turn at a time? Maybe two hours max grace period where someone can edit the just-ended turn, but we had things like people editing the last turn 9 hours after it ended and stuff. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think Scan's second idea works better. And come to think of it, if we switched to 12 UTC, I wouldn't be able to post until 17 UTC, my free period.

Argh...oh well, I suppose whatever works best for the mods is best for us.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

So we change it to 21:00 UTC? That way I can update first thing in the morning and LurkerLord as soon as he gets back from school. Collie is this time ok? Scandinator (talk) 05:24, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hrm... I think maybe 20-21 UTC would be the best- it would be 5-6 ish in DC and that's the time I'm most active. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:07, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

20-21 UTC is great. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:44, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

21:00 UTC it is :D Scandinator (talk) 23:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

OK, now that we have settled on a better time, can we establish an end to posting stuff after a turn ends? Exceptions such as replying to something, clarifying something, changing a name, or moderation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:19, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should keep the times the same... Saamwiil (talk)

@ LurkerLord, one hour at most, I'm sick of these discussions on banning so we delete the post the first time and then ban on the second for three days. Obviously moderation, and minor changes are allowed.

@Saamwill, this decision was made to allow at least four mods to be on at the start time (Lurker, Pita, Collie and I). Therefore I won't miss out on posting the mod event (lol at PM epidemics) and thus it is more fair and consistant. Scandinator (talk) 06:58, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wait...we're starting at 5 or 4 PM eastern time depending on daylight savings... I would rather 12:00 UTC (7 or 8 AM)...so that I can edit at 9 or 10 PM on the next turn...when I am usualy active...but 21 UTC can work.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:15, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

That was the best time for the most moderators to be able to post moderator events and maps, 12:00 UTC is a horrible time for me. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:24, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

TBH I was okay with the old time, but maybe instead if a mod event is planned for the next upcoming turn/year we should just post it while the current turn is going on. E.g. if I wanted to add a mod event about an earthquake happening in Greece in 1451, then I would post the mod event during the 1450 turn. By doing this we stamp out the time zone problem completely and people know for definite what is happening mod event wise during that turn. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:22, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Conquest of Constantinople
In 1453 the Ottomans captured constantinople and dissolved the empire in month and some days. I was wondering if it was such a short war that an algorithm wasn't needed, I wanted to follow some of the empire's early historie. Saamwiil (talk) 22:55, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

The seige lasted for a year. Ottomans have 13 military points in the algorythm if they wish to attack Constantinople. Scandinator

Well from Friday April 6, 1453 to Tuesday May 29, 1453. Saamwiil (talk) 11:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Making algorithm Better
I was just wondering about a few thing that could modify the algorithm to make it more historically accurate: Just some sugestions... Saamwiil (talk) 23:20, August 29, 2012 (UTC) LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:39, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Golden Age, say like a 50 year period where nation gets +15 war score, (can also do other stuff)
 * Tactics, say 1 point for every ten years researching Officers.
 * Navy size, navies have won a lot of wars, say this counts as military research so your military research score doesen't go down (but doesn't go up), but you can say count the navy for the last 20 turns or something.
 * Overall preparedness- the average city wall to a city in your nation is very thick vs. very thin,
 * Best Leader- the best leader a country would ever have, great commander, this could say give a 3 point bonus.
 * If your capital is near the border with another country you could lose 4 points.
 * Being awesome- +500 lol, jk
 * Leader of faith- Like the Papal states, or the Ottoman Empire after they beat Persia.
 * 1) We currently have a system implemented that your score is raised if you have a government change, have an unstable government, and then have a popular revolt (like what happened with Napoleon or Hitler) for about 10 years, as those are small periods of intense military power. Nations that are neither new nor really old already have a bonus
 * 2) Tactics would fall under the preparing the military bonus.
 * 3) Naval power would fall under the preparing the military bonus.
 * 4) Overall preparedness would too.
 * 5) Best leader won't work, as then everyone would always have a great leader arise in their nations before they had any wars.
 * 6) A badly situated capital could be a small factor, but I can't think of any historical scenario where this makes a big difference. If the area is taken or attacked, the government can leave.
 * 7) (joke)
 * 8) This would just encourage more people to join you in any war motivated by religion.

Also, military updating was changed to +2 instead of just +1, so developing your navy and training leaders (which could be part or all of your update) would count more important. You could build up your navy, army, and train leaders all in one turn if you wanted, it would just still count as 1. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:50, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

What I meant for best leader would be like a period of 10 years in your nation history which you could use, like Suleyman the Magnificent or Queen Elizebeth. And for navy, a nation could have a strong army and no navy to support it therefore useless, I personally think they should be two. Btw, thx for telling me about the change! I would've been lost... Saamwiil (talk) 04:28, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Start Date
So, will we start tomorrow? The Royal Guns (talk) 00:43, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Depends what time zone you are in whether it is tomorrow or just later today. Going by Wiki time (UTC) it is later today, going by my time zone it is tomorrow. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:11, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

1450 mod events
Im pretty sure that the description for the Original Principia Moderni was like the Mod events from 1450 but for the nations of the people that joined in the Original PM. what I'm saying is that it would be better if the Description were to be deleted and switched to the Mod events regarding each Nation. And Also, the Russians at that point just paid tribute more like a bribe to the Golden horde just for insurance so that they would not have to deal with war...the states in Russia actualy led their own foreign policy and everything. -unsigned post by someone

If you are equating the 2 lines in the original PM intro about the current state of the world to Scandinator's much more detailed summary, then it should be obvious why we are switching. However, we aren't going to delete the intro of the original game, it is 592 days too late to add moderator events to that turn. The Russian event says nothing about them going to war with the Golden Horde. Also, I would say having to pay a large tribute to prevent yourself from being conquered would fall under being dominated by the Golden Horde. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:26, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Time?
Right then, it is now well past 03:00 UTC. Start?

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:40, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

We start at 21:00 UTC. That means in 18 hours. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:42, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. My bad. I spoke twelve hours early. I incorrectly thought it meatn 2100 EDT, not 2100 UTC.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:44, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really understand the whole UTC, EDT, etc thing. The Royal Guns (talk) 12:51, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

UTC = Universal Time Coordinate

EDT = Eastern Daylight Time

Basiclly it has to do with time zones. -Kogasa 2012年9月04日 21:54:14 (JST)

AHH thank you. The Royal Guns (talk) 14:30, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hype
Just a few hours left until the game starts. Anyone got some good music to listen to for anticipation? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 20:17, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NwP3wes4M8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot9LhcVWF2s

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:18, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HN-SG55F0

Or at least it's mine anyway, lol. -Kogasa 2012年9月05日 05:20:32 (JST)

GANGNAM STYLE! LOL! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:56, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Atlantic islands
On the map, what about the Atlantic islands? they are shown as not being settled, but in 1451, there already were towns on Madeira being recognized a such (ex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machico), and the Azores (at least the eastern islands) were already being settled by 1450.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:43, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. - how many military points Portugal has on the algorythm?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:46, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Castille

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: Castille (L), Milan (S):6
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 7 (religious)
 * Chance:4
 * Edit count=95
 * 2*1*5*6=30
 * 95/30*pi=9.94
 * Nation Age: 5 (Old nation)
 * Population:17
 * 7 digits in population
 * More than five times larger than Granada +10
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:54

Granada

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Granada (L), Aq Qoyunlu (M), Marinids (M), Zayyanids (M), Mamluks (M):15
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance:5
 * Edit count=335
 * 2*2*1*6=24
 * 335/24*pi=43.85
 * Nation Age: +5 (Old Nation)
 * Population:7
 * 7 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:58

Result
Currently Grandan victory. Granada can take ((61/(61+54)*2)-1=6.08% of Castillan territory at most, depending on how long the war lasts. Granada can determine how long the war lasts.

Discussion
First Algorithm! You get to be used as the example algorithm on the rules page! Also, remember, that other nations can still come in and send military aid to Castille or Granada. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:57, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Milan said they supported Castille. It is implausible for them to send military aid, but not implausible for them to send supplies since they are a center of trade, so that is what I put them down as. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:36, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Can I end the war so I can build up my infastructure and economy then attack Castille again when I'm stronger. Will Granada still existing effect the formation of Spain? But if I can still end the war it's over now. And I will not stand for it if Castille immediatly attacks me again. Willster22 (talk) 23:56, September 4, 2012 (UTC) P.S Before the war ends add the Mamluks.

You can end the war in 1451 if you want (it needs to last at least 1 year if you want any territory) LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ok the war ends in 1451. But my question still stands, will Granada surviving effect the formation of Spain? Willster22 (talk) 00:53, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Spain was formed by Aragon and Castille entering dynastic union. As both are player nations, they could either join in union like OTL or not. As for Granada surviving, in OTL they survived until 1492, so this victory does not mean they have won... LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:25, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't this war effect the real-life Granada War as me winning this war would demoralize Castille. If I prepare for a future war I could declare war later and gain more territory then change my name to Andalucia. That would probably stop Spain from forming. Muslim Europe! (: (Well I guess more like Muslim Spain ): Willster22 (talk) 01:35, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

We'll have to see what happens. By the way, the Arabic name for Andalucia was Al-Andalus, so if they remain Muslim they would probably use the Arabic version. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:39, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry forgot so later when I gain more territory in Spain I will be renamed Al-Andalus. Willster22 (talk) 01:40, September 5, 2012 (UTC) P.S and will the war end at the beginning of 1451 or the end?

No, it will be most likely be called Andalucía; yes, the official language of most taifas (including Granada) was Andalusian Arabic, but the main language spoken by the people was a Romance language,. Sure, the ruling elite would officially call it Al-Andalus, but Andalucía would stick rather quickly. Fed (talk) 02:07, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter for territory purposes. You can have it end whenever you want, you won (albeit narrowly). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

By the percentage how many pixels can I take from Castille? Willster22 (talk) 01:47, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

So a higher a elite of nobles, generals, and emirs that speak Arabic and lower classes that speak Mozarabic. Now that will change in a few decades as Arabic shall become more enforced and Islam shall be taught in school strictly. Everybody has to know the first half of the Koran in Grade 3 now. Jk!! Mozarabic will still be latinized just so I have something to use for names as finding transliteration for Arabic is impossible but Mozarabic will have more principles of Arabic added to it, including righting from the right to the left. Willster22 (talk) 03:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I have some trouble figuring out how Milan is helping Castille in military or supplies since they don't have a coastline and just got owned by Venice a few years ago .-. Scandinator (talk) 07:06, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy with the result and i think that really it feeds more divergence and the future itself with this result in the iberian peninsula. But one thing I would advise is that "Do not get ahead of events," I know this with defeat, but the events and what will happen will not have to determine one, if not several. I from Andalusia (Andalucía is the name in Spanish) and the term of al-Andalus (al-Ándalus in spanish) is of the muslim territories in Iberia, NOT THE SOUTHERN AUTONOMOUS COMUNNITY OF THE SPAIN: ANDALUSIA. Greetings, Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos (talk) 10:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC).

If the war lasts for one year, Granada gains 210 px or 10,500 sqkm of area, if it lasts for two Granada gains 315px or 15750 sqkm. And I cbb going further. The maximum is 419px though. Scandinator (talk) 11:41, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

It will last for 2 years then with me gaining 315px so then I can look much for threatening on the map. Willster22 (talk) 13:14, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Morroco AND THE Marinids are the same people!!!!!!!!! Willster22 (talk) 13:58, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly.The Marinids are just their ruling dynasty.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:55, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Aragon
Hey everyone, a topic of somewhat importance.

AwesomePeruvian is taking a break from the site. It's quite a long one. He's asking me to take care of Aragon for him. I think I should give it to someone else, but he asked me to do so.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:48, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

In 1451 I could post something about Aragon's monarch suddenly dying and having his heir want to marry into another family, which could put it in dynastic union with whichever nation is the nation of the person who will control it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Actually he asked me to get Castille into the HRE somehow. I think if you could do that it would be good.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:45, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Castille into the HRE???? No way is that happening. Only states bordering the HRE that are christian and Frankish, Germanic or Italian can enter. And the Emperor would not let a large state join, they would be a challenge to his power. Scandinator (talk) 06:44, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

To get Castille into the HRE would require them to annex like all of France and Aragon. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:48, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sign Ups
Ok, we have 42 sign ups as of right now. I don't care whether its the Queen of England herself signing up or Obama, but I'm removing anyone from the map and list if they haven't posted by 1455 or told us they are on wiki break. I'm literally out of colours with the map... Scandinator (talk) 07:46, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Missing islands on the map
Hey there are a fair few islands missing off the map completely, can we add these islands onto the map? From what I see we're missing the following:
 * Bermuda
 * St. Helena
 * Tristan da Cunha islands
 * Crozet islands
 * The Seychelles
 * The Maldives
 * The Cocos islands
 * The Lakshadweep islands
 * The Chagos archipelago
 * Palau
 * Charoline islands
 * Northern Marinanas islands
 * Marshall islands
 * Nauru
 * The Gilbert islands (and the rest of the islands in Kiribati too)
 * Tonga
 * All the small Fijian islands to the east of the main island of Fiji
 * The Cook islands
 * Most of the islands in French polynesia
 * Easter island

There are some more of I'm going out soon so I need to cut this list short. Anyway any chance of having these islands added to the map? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:39, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Depends.one pixel is equivalent to 50 sq km. so islands with much less than 50 sq km (i will try to give a margin of error) won't be shown.one example is the Mariana islands. only five of them 15 will be able to be shown: Pagan, Agrihan, Saipan, Tinian and Rota.This rule also is why the island of Corvo, Azores, also can't be shown.it has only 17 sq km, which would mean that it could be represented with 1/3 of a pixel.However, Palau is big enough to be shown.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'll try to add ones that are larger than 30sqkm this weekend. Scandinator (talk) 22:03, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues
I thought I'd create this section to deal with various issues we find on the map (maybe the above section should be moved here). Anyway,

Can a color for Majapahit be added to the map? Perhaps a dark purple.Flagmania (talk) 20:27, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we have any colors left.i will try to get a color for you and your vassals.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:33, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I am considering making a permanent map issues section at the top of the talk page so we don't have a new one of these every five days. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:38, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

The color for Majapahit and its vassals can be the same one. Also, the Ottoman's eastern border is different on the Europe map than on the world maps.Flagmania (talk) 21:16, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, this is because the EWurope map is earlier than the world map, so the Eastern beyliks hadn't been added. and i couldn't edit the Europe map, as i don't have the means to add back those characters..--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:41, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

China

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: China (L), Dai Vet (MV): 6
 * Military Buildup: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5 (Moral Friend)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count=2,627
 * 2*1*1*7=14
 * 95/30*pi=9.94
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population:+18
 * 8 digits in population
 * Population is between 5-10 times larger than Oirat
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total: 60

Oirat Khanate

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Oirats (L): +4
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: -5 (Ancient Nation)
 * Population:7
 * 7 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:35

Result
Chinese victory