Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flip back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

Can I get the UER's borders in? Scandinator (talk) 11:07, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

If I could have Bonoman (Dahomey) colored in Ethiopia's color, I'd very much appriciate it. I've controlled that stupid piece of land since the 1820s, so I don't know why it keeps getting uncolored. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:06, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you actually think that they, who fought (in a way) against you just to form their nation, would just willingly submit to you?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:37, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why didn't you say anything about it two months ago? Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:40, November 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have been telling you.you didn't notice.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:56, November 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then please, enlighten me. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 07:25, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

I held control of the bottom half of East Falkland Island whane Rex's De Mor Tir became independent. Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:57, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

On the next map if you could add Wales, Britanny and Ireland to German colours,  that will be appreaciated. They rebelled away from the Northern alliance and reqeusted to join the Commonwealth of Britannica. Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 04:14, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

And Oldenburg also asked to join Saxony. Callumthered (talk) 04:19, November 20, 2013 (UTC)

Just a heads up for the next map: 22:10, November 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ostkasodan (land gained from Kasodani) will be expand into the gap created under the Plains Lakota.
 * The River Lakota will focus on expanding north of Ostkasodan, towards the Chinese territories.
 * Novomoskovsk should be a client state by 1893.

Labelled Map
































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<p style="font-size:13px;">New labelled maps :P Scandinator (talk) 16:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">I think it may be time to update the maps as a lot of territory changes have occurred in the last 50ish years.Andr3w777 (talk) 01:00, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the Europe labelled map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:09, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

It has been updated again. However, some parts might not be fully accurate. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:08, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map


<p style="font-size:13px;"> Colors:

<p style="font-size:13px;">Catholic - Light Blue <p style="font-size:13px;">Reformed Churches - Blue <p style="font-size:13px;">Apostolic Church - Deep Purple <p style="font-size:13px;">Kappelists - Dark Blue <p style="font-size:13px;">Eastern Orthodox - Mustard

<p style="font-size:13px;">Ethiopian Orthodox - Yellow <p style="font-size:13px;">Islam - Green <p style="font-size:13px;">Nestorianism - Light Green <p style="font-size:13px;">Hinduism - Teal <p style="font-size:13px;">Buddhism - Pale Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Taoism/Shintoism - Light Purple

<p style="font-size:13px;">Carthaginian Nestorianism - Light Red <p style="font-size:13px;">

<p style="font-size:13px;">So, after my last Religion Map was received pretty well, I have decided to make... another religion map! Along with this map, I will add a little bit of commentary, ever so boldly of myself following my latest ban! Anyhow, this is all to be taken in an ATL fashion, and not as a violation of NC/NC. As always, mods may feel free to remove this map or invalidate/change it.

<p style="font-size:13px;">So, lets go into a continent-by-continent ananlysis of the world map as shown by religion!

<p style="font-size:13px;">Europe - There is only one faith in Europe, and that is Christianity. But ever since the Great Schism in the late days of Rome, the Christian Church has been divided. This division grew even further with the arrival of Kappel, and the later reformation of German and Italian churches. Later even, Brython co-founded the Apolstolic Church, which is located out of Europe but centered in the Americas.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Stability - Divided into 3 primary groups of Christians, 8/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Devotion - Weak faith is present in secular states like Italy, 6/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Asia - Now, Asia is the largest continent, and also the most diverse religiously. Moving east from Europe, first Eastern Orthodoxy is prevalent, then Nestorianism in the Levant and in Persia/Baghdad. Next is Islam in Arabia and Central Asia, followed by Hinduism and Buddhism, and finally the unique religions of Taoist/Shintoist faith of Japan.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Stability - Islam is falling, or may rise again?, 6/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Devotion - Strong faith in Eastern Asia, 8/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Africa - By far the most prone to religious conflicts *Looks to mods for events* Africa houses a large variety of religions. South Africa, which had largely been Nestorian, is now shifting Hindu, and Mali still clings to Islam, although isolated by Christian nations. The unique Ethiopian Orthodox is common in the interior, and is most likely the most practiced African religion. Carthage's recent Nestorian conflicts are intriguing, and Madagascar still holds Islam dear, as well.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Stability - Crazy colonization has lit a match!, 3/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Devotion - In order to survive, drastic measures may be needed, 9/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Americas - I will not go into a ton of detail about religion in American colonies. Naturally, they mimic their motherlands. I will, however, express the distinctly American religion, which is Apostolicism. This religion, co-founded by the Selk'nam, has spread to encompass Kappelist beliefs, which have intrigued the average Mayan, and also now the Apache peoples.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Stability - Devout Christians make the majority, 7/10

<p style="font-size:13px;">Religious Devotion - The Apostolic Faith in addition to motherland faiths, maintain religiosity, 8/10

<p style="font-size:13px;"> <p style="font-size:13px;">That's All Folks! 09:43, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Mostly good although only the Apache, not the Mayans, are Apostolic (not for lack of trying on my part), I think at this point Tojiko in Africa may also be majority-Apostolic although that's Kogasa's call. He's been building more churches than temples there lately. Also the south American Japanese ex-colony Byakuren has conerted to Buddhism from Shintoism - that's what spurred their independence. Commandante Lemming (talk) 13:48, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Actually, Byakuren converted from Taoism to Buddhism. As for Tojiko, they are a majority Apostolic (mainly Jīdūhist and Amaterasuist), with a decent amount of Shintoism. -Kogasa  2013 September 26, 17:58 (CET)

<p style="font-size:13px;">I fix what Commandante Said, The mayans are mostly germanic and Keppelists. and Carthage is due to being Isolated, in the sense of religion,(Due to lack of contact with the Levantine) Carthaginian  Nestorianism, Influenced Heavily by Catholicism. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:34, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Good fix but.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Tojiko (Japanese Aftrica in OTL Namibia) needs to be Dark Purple (Apostolic).

<p style="font-size:13px;">Byakuren (Japanese South Chile), should be Light Green (Buddhist).

<p style="font-size:13px;">Should Maya be Kappelist dark blue or royal blue Germanic.

<p style="font-size:13px;">Also a number of nations have regional religious divisions so we can talk about whethr that is good to include (for instance my West is Taoist)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:14, September 26, 2013 (UTC)



<p style="font-size:13px;"> <p style="font-size:13px;">I made this map, using the latest 1730 map, and the old Religion Map as a guide. I do not claim this to be official, but please add/edit/update it as you feel needed to do so. If the mods don't like this, please take it down, but I only want to help. Reximus55 (talk) 10:35, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Update time? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:38, March 24, 2013 (UTC) <p style="font-size:13px;"></li> <p style="font-size:13px;"></li> </li>

Industrial Algorithm Modifiers and Industrial Era areas and rates.
I have a proposal to modify the algorithm to put into perspective the colonial wars of the 18th-20th century. An algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. Nations with two stages use the higher when defending and the lower when attacking. Scandinator (talk) 04:59, April 28, 2013 (UTC)



Stage 1

 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Stage 2​

 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Stage 3

 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Railways appear
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Stage 4​

 * Civilian railways appear allowing easier access
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Stage 5

 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Stage 6​

 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Stage 7

 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
I'm extremely confused. Also, I think the industrialization chart should be corrected, as Scandinavia has been vanquished.

16:08, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see no need to remove them, as they have already been removed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I like this one better than it's predecessor, mainly beccause there are more divisions here, allowing for a more accurate representation of the country's standing. Albeit, there are a few things that could be amended. CourageousLife (talk) 16:22, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Much better. And what is confusing Scraw? It is pretty simple to understand once the map is up showing industrialisation levels. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:27, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's for the map.


 * 17:16, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

It needs some corrections, as some characteristics are too late or too early for their times.Such as: We should move the appearing of railways to stage 4, and their spread to 5, to start with, After all, when we talk about railways, this implies steam locomotives, necessarily.And, steam locomotives in 1770?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't too far-fetched. A viable steam engine existed in 1782, it just took a while(about 20 years) before people to realise it could be used for rail transport. A two-cylinder steam engine was invented by a Russian in 1766...it had great potential, and could have perhaps accelerated the development of the steam locomotive by a phew decades(maybe only 10 years to say: put it on a fracking train) but The Empress ditched the designs in favor of a more "Brittish" system(i.e. hydraulicaly cooled that required close water supply...this lagged locomotive construction). So...RUssians could have built locomotives in the 1770s...but the empress wanted to stay close to brittain, and brittish-style tech, so that slowed many things...and because of that, the twocylinder stam engine was scrapped.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unlike the last game, the East is on better footing with the West, and thus will breed even more competition. I think this is completely fine if you ask me. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I've done the research in the industrial era. For whomever industrializes first, these technologies do not suddenly appear. It is gradual in within each stage. Scandinator (talk) 11:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would think that, like in PMII, crimson would be a fraction of the main natino around the nation's "heartland/capital" area, and the rest of the nation would get industry red. And colonies would industry get a colour under their founding nations, etc... However, I am worried about the ammount of colours...in any case, I do believe that orange and yellow(or at the least orange) should get planes at the same time as red and crimson...technology and trade would change to the point that...well...those nations could do thema t the same time...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel like one of these (red, yellow, orange) should be removed. Also, shouldn't Europe (closer to Italy) be receiving industrialization faster than the Middle East?

21:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not that the map is bad, but I would say that the coast and Dehli should be joined up as they are prime industrial locations. Doesn't really change anything, but it looks nicer, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian Federation should really industrialize earlier than its vassal of Baghdad I think. Albeit just industrializing along the coastal regions like Oman and Qatar where the majority of my urban population lives. The Nejd won't see industrialization for many years later. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

China would industrialize quicker than the yellow rate due to their extensive trading, especially with Orissa and Italia. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I too feel that China should be in orange.

I also find it strange that both Georgia and Austria are in orange while Germany itself is in yellow. Not to mention that Germany was higher than Russia on the chart and closer to Italy than Russia.

21:25, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Aren't any of these going to be addressed?

17:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd so something about it since I'm a mod, but I'm not sure if I have clearance for this map. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 18:20, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll edit it since, not only does it seem like the plausible thing to do, but worst-case scenario, they'll revert it and yell at me a little. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 16:53, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be less of orange China, as lots of those areas would be presently unsuitable for industrialization.

22:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a buffer between red and yellow.

CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 05:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I like how Germany is on the same level with the Dimurat and Siberia.

23:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

As per my post on the page I'd like to propose that the point on Steel and Glass is changed to "Steel and Glass become mass producible". Also I now have both light green and yellow industrial stuffs in my nation so how does this affect my industrialisation? Kunarian TALK 06:54, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Based on precedence, I'd say no, as I've conquered both orange and red territories. I'm in orange, so realistically speaking, I only got red land but no red rights. So I'm pretty sure the answer is that you will not advance.

21:06, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

I just want to propose one change. I think orange should enter Stage 6 in 1900, and Stage 5 in 1865.

18:34, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Guys i think France Should as of 1820 - 1830 be entering the Red stage, after all the Industrialization process as a player nation has grown eversince 1720 if not earlier, and france has enough resources from their relative states ( Such as the colonies or Vassals). Sine dei gloriem (talk) 03:55, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't france be entering red, or have some patches of land in Red ?. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:53, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

Th Selk'nam are shown here in my map color not with an updated industry score (doubt I've passed most European powers for industrialization). Am I still sky blue or should I move forward? Commandante Lemming (talk) 02:47, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Special NPC bonus nations
Hey so these nations are special Non Player Countries because these nations used to be part of a powerful empire which ruled lots of the world, hence they are stronger than normal nations.

This bonus is worked out like the normal NPC bonus; where in every very year that a NPC nation is not at war or expanding, or having a disaster, it will build up one of the three development areas (military, infrastructure and economy). The number of total buildups will be divided into the three categories as evenly as possible, with preference going infrastructure>economy>military. With their final score will be divided by two then rounded to the nearest whole. However the special NPC bonus doesn't divide by two, so it is just the number of total buildups.

E.g. If a nation existed for 15 years, or spent 15 turns not doing anything, this would mean that the infrastructure, military and the economy were updated in five turns each. The NPC nation would receive fifteen points of bonus, five for each department (economy, infrastructure and military).

The nations with this special NPC bonus are as follows:

The Middle East Africa
 * The Republic of Turkistan
 * The Sultanate of Baghdad
 * The Sultanate of Kuwait
 * The Kingdom of Dimurat
 * Mangystau
 * Ha'il
 * Buraydah
 * Khafji
 * Saudi Arabia
 * Ar Rayn
 * The Arabian Federation
 * Oman
 * The Emirate of Shaybah
 * The Caliphate of Hejaz
 * Najran
 * The Emirate of San'a
 * Aden
 * Hadhramaut
 * Salalah
 * Socotra
 * The East African Federation
 * Sukuma
 * The Kingdom of Nyamwezi
 * Mbeya

Protectorate rules
Seeing how some nations are getting protectorates I think we should make the rules about them clear. As far as I'm concerned they aren't as good as vassals so they should be treated as NPCs in the algorithm, but the protecting nation should always help out their protectorate in any wars they are in and if you don't then the protectorate treaties will end as you failed to protect them.

Extending there treatment as NPCs you can't post turns for them either, and they can only give +1 to algorithm strength scores as (P) and they must be close to where the war is happening otherwise they don't get involved (e.g. Normandy's Mogadishu protectorate can't send aid to Normandy's wars in Europe).Protectorates get a -3 algorithm penalty in all wars due to their reliance on their protector.

They are shown in the colour of the protecting nation on the map so players know if other PNs are protecting them, and also you can only have a maximum of 5 protectorates. If you have 3 or more protectorates you also get a war algorithm penalty of -2 for having protectorates as your military will be stretched trying to protect these far off nations. It'll take a 4 year minimum to establish a protectorate too. You can also then peacefully turn your protectorate into a vassal or puppet after 15 years of that nation being your protectorate. You can do it sooner than 15 years if you like but an algorithm will be needed.

Thoughts on these new rules? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:24, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think that this is good enough.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:51, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay and also they should expand like NPCs since players can't post for them and because the protectorate is weak relying on another nation for protection.

I'll add this stuff to the rules page in a few days to give other people a chance to comment on these new rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:30, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

PMIII Proposal
Hey all. PMII is in its last 200 turns and boy has it been a ride. I have a few ideas I wish to share for PMIII. Anyone else is free to add their own ideas so long as you sign after them.
 * 1) Earlier start time. We have had 1420 and 1450. I think its time to unwind to 1350 for some more interesting situations worldwide. Scandinator (talk)
 * 2) A slight rewrite of the algorithm to include national unity (or something similar). Scandinator (talk)
 * 3) Debuffs for all areas of the world until they fulfill a set of requirements. Scandinator (talk)
 * 4) Rethink industrialization concept. It was good on paper, but was rather sloppy in its execution. Some prior forethought into the matter to avoid the confusion and debate in the next game would be nice. Vivaporius (talk)
 * 5) Improve and refine colonization concept for PMIII. While I agree that it rather water-tight as of now, I think some further discussion on the matter as to how to improve it would be a significant development for the future game. Vivaporius (talk)
 * 6) Allow further technological advances. Of course the system now is good, but if nations in Asia become world powers, the progress of science is a whole load faster, especially if the government emphasis is on the subject. Otherwise we will be stuck with laptops in 2013, not building terraforming stations over Venus. ;) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 06:51, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7) Firm (but hopefully not restrictive) rules on expansion and colonization for tribal nations (Selk'nam, Koori, etc.) and non-OTL powers (Ethiopia, Maya, etc.). Address in advance whather or not European and Asian nations get special privileges to avoid recriminations and arguments over whether non-European powers are to be considered ASB. This seemingly has been a major problem in this game, with certain players demanding that African/American/Oceanian powers be allowed to rise. and some insisting that European powers should not be subject to off-continent attack, or that they should always behave as superiors when relating to non-Europeans. Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:40, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) I would like for there to be at least one mod who does not play as a nation, who would be completely unbiased. They handle the algorithms where one or more mods are in the conflict, so there's no way that it could swing one way or another because of what user is playing. CourageousLife (talk) 20:29, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9) Expansion from land to coast should be harder and slower, but inwards expansion from coast to land should be easier. (This means through black areas.) ~ Scraw 21:46, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 10) In the algorithm, the development scores should range based on how much total, not just 15 years. For example, if a weak nation has +15 military and a strong one has a +5 even though it has one of the most powerful militaries in the world, this is not fair. Each nation should have individual development scores, which can be assigned everytime a map is made. ~ Scraw
 * 11) Dare I suggest moving at two years per turn? That would allow the game to finish in in one year instead of two. Commandante Lemming (talk) 02:40, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds good - I'm a little iffy on technical advances earlier for Asia as they would probably tip the balance in favor of Asia over Europe (which isn't neccessarily BAD, but it might be a bit unfair to players in Europe). Personally I was planning a PM3 strategy contingent on a mid-1400s start, but I think I can probably play in the same region with an even stronger chance of accomplishing my goal with an earlier start. My only question then would be whether a jump-start in technology would also enable a jump start in colonization. Just for the sake of gameplay, if we set colonization limits at 1500, some players may get boxed in and bored in the first 200 turns. I personally am not too worried about that (yeah I'm dropping hints) but I probably would be if my plan was to play a relatively small European nation in OTL France or Germany. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:13, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

All I know is that I want to be Florence. Also, I remember Scan wanting to be China in PMII. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 14:30, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well if we're calling nations I'm looking at my options in Siberia as the Golden Horde starts to collapse. I think it's an underexploited region that would make a nice follow up to my Selk'nam adventure, so I may discuss what nations can be carved out at the point of divergence. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:43, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

For me, if we're going to start in 1350, probably i'll call Portugal again.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:12, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Korea next game if it's okay. -Kogasa  2013 September 10, 18:00 (CET)

I'd like to call Britain/England.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 16:06, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Ethiopia once again. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:03, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Scotland. Yank 17:44, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought you'd wanted to be Japan next game? -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 19:55 (CET)
 * I'd like to call the Kalmar Union. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 18:16, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I'm going to be Japan they're going to Christianize ASAP. Even if it's a hybrid religion like Jiduhism. Yank 20:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, will you be choosing Japan or can I have it? The only reason why I didn't choose it was because I though you'd wanted it. -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 22:10 (CET)
 * I'd like to stick with Europe for once. For now I'm going for Scotland. We'll see when PMII comes around. Yank 20:17, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. In that case I'll call Japan for PMIII. If you ever change your mind let me know. -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 22:21 (CET)
 * I'll put in my reservation for the Mayans again (or Aztecs, depending on when the start date is). CourageousLife (talk) 20:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

If we're doing round robin - anyone have their heart set on Russia? I don't want it, but the presence, or lack thereof, of a strong Russia is going to be a big factor in my game, and if there is russian player I will want to talk to them before the game starts. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:59, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well he hasn't posted yet but I know that Lx will be pissed if someone takes Russia. Unless you do something like the Russian Confed. from early on in this game (before your time I think) The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 21:41, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I say that the start should be in 1400. Also, regardless of the start time, I wanted England, but that is unfortunately taken so I shall settle on China if still available. If not, (in order of preference) Vietnam, Korea, Ottomans, or Mughals.

Scraw 21:46, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

The Mughals came in 1517, while the Ottomans were pretty disorganized until 1420 ish. Korea is taken, I believe. But have fun with China. I NOW HAVE THE COOLEST SIG ON THE WIKI!

China it is then.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:00, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * China's claimed by Scan. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 22:01, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Plz. Has he said it yet? If you really persist on this, then I'll just move on down to the Crown of Aragon.
 * Scraw 22:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I claimed it a year ago :P Scandinator (talk) 09:53, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Do it! Also, your sig has gone massive- YET AGAIN!

Dammit! Thought I fixed it...

~ S 22:08, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Make it into a template

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:19, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

That's how it already is...

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry I'm not going to steal Russia, I was just going to see who was playing it becasue I intend on building an Asian Siberian power behind Russia - the idea being to seewhat happens in a timeline where Russia doesn't have unimpeded access to Siberia and the Pacific - but I don't want to get blown off the map by and angry Russian player either. If there's a strong Russian player then I'll likely back off and build an Asian nation in the OTL Russian Far East. If there isn't, I might just play as the Samoyedic peoples in the Urals and stop the Russian Empire from forming in the first place. But if Lx wants to keep Russia then I'll build something further East (Actually, if Lx wants to have some real fun and we shift back to 1350, I would encourage him to play as the Golden Horde, prevent it's demise, eliminate the nascent Russian Empire at it's origin, and build a Muslim power in East Europe - now THAT would shake things up.) Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:31, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Matter of fact, I'll just take Aragon. Lemming, I suggest Manchuria or Korea.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:33, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

@Scraw

Well, clearly not...

@Lemming

Don't worry, Lx won't flip. But really, take one of the Siberian peoples then, not one of the proper Rus.

Hey! Just had an idea.

Why not start PMIII now?

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:35, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I won't be taking an established nation. If I'm starting in 1350 in a baren wasteland I'm starting from scatch. I'm thinking maybe the Koryak peoples on Kamchatka could adopt Chinese and Japanese influeance and build a Buddhist Asian nation on the sea of Okhotsk - or Maybethe Evenks on the Amur River. That oughta be a nice suprise for the Russians when they arrive 300 years later :-) I'm playing the tribal game this time - it'll be even more fun if I do it from the get-go.

And I'd be all for starting it now but not for wrapping up PM2, I want to finish this sucker out.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:41, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I agree.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:43, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ik, that's what I was suggesting. Run 'em simultaneously. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:44, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

That won't work as the players will immediately move to PMIII and let PMII die. That's what happened to all the other major map games the moment PMII began. Also, Scraw when I read your rule proposal, it almost entirely mirrors the current war between Ethiopia and the Sino-German Alliance. There have been many examples of a minor power defeating a major power throughout history. Greece vs. Persia, Japan vs. Russia, Switzerland vs. Holy Roman Empire, any number of barbarians vs. the Roman Empire. By assign individual development points, that in and of itself is unfair, as it doesn't permit a minor power to grow and become a major power. England was at one point a minor power, and could have been destroyed by Spain, but it became a major power after facing the odds and dethroning the world power of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of making it easier for colonies to conquer native nations, but your example works too.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:37, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I can wait another 200 days. Though I somehow doubt it will get that far... The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:49, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Guns plz. PM always lasts.

~ S 23:51, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw, you have one example of that.

One data point a trend does not make. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:58, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I actualy posted before, stating my desire to, for the moment, be set as a russian nation, seeing as we do not know what the start date would be, therefore almost impossible to form strategy as a response to Leming's first querry on Russia. unfortunately, editconflict happened and I closed laptop as soon as I saw page reloading(most of the time meaning edit was submitted, only to find out now it did not go through. The Muslim GH option looks like it might be interesting, to change things up(i did despotic Muscovite russia, now i'm doing mercantile, democratic novgorodian russia)...but i will wait first so that I know what time period. For the time being put me down as a russian state(due to the fact that different time periods yield different balances of power in russia and in eastern europe/northwestern asia in general)-Lx (leave me a message) 00:56, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh right, another thing, we probably shouldnt start PMIII before PMII finishes...running two (extremely) similar map games simultaneously, and expecting people to pay as much attention to one as the other is an absurd idea. you can at best hope for half copy-pastey and half actual edits, with the ones copy-pasting in PMIII actual editing in PMII and vice versa, and an eventual loss of intrest in one or the other, to the detriment of both. I want maximum success for both games, so I humbly suggest to wait out PMIII untill PMII finishes.

'''On a completely unrelated sidenote: I am posting this here because I know ceveral BFE contributors are also PMII contributors. you do not need to read this if you are not interested in Battle for Earth.'''The New BFE map game was delayed and never started due to summer and many people being gone...this should not be the case anymore...It would be best if people running the game would know who is still in, and perhaps new people that would like to join, please say so on the talk page of Battle for Earth Strikes Back. I want to start this up ASAP, and ask players to at least add a bit of history to the BFE: Prime Timeline, and do some personal alien nation history(or human nation history with alien artifacts left behind...) to add to the BFE Universe. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:06, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well Guns, if you're really itching for action, PM2 itself has a bunch of prime real estatem, especially in Central Asia, why not jump into the sandbox? I know the timeline has gotten pretty complicated and some weird moves have been made, but that happens with any game. I know I'd personally love to have a Persian or Dimurati player back in the game, that or take over one of the "ASB" colonies and see what you can do with it. You know you want to give in to the crazy. 200 turns isn't that long and the game could proably use a little new blood. Seriously though, we need more people who want to do serious alternate history in this game, it would enrich the timeline, and I think you could have some fun until we get PM3 going later. Commandante Lemming (talk) 02:40, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

If we're calling stuff can I call the Byzantines? :D Airlinesguy (talk) 12:54, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh i call the Ottomans :D And if i cant have them then ill take Venice or the Papal States :) DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 16:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

The Ottomans were pretty disorganized at the time, assuming we're starting at 1350, though you're welcome to give it a shot. You never know what you could pull off. Though I'd advise against claiming the Italian states ;) CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 20:43, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I also advise against Italy and the Ottomans. Italy will have two powerful nations with players in there already (me and Crim), so not the best move. Ottomans are randomly dead. I suggest a small state in Central Germany to get you started.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought you were going to be Aragon :( CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 23:56, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am. I have Naples and Athens! :P
 * Scraw 23:57, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Naples was captured by Aragon in 1442 by Alfonso I. Even then, it was a dependency. Athens, on the other hand, was captured by Aragon in 1311. However, Florence captured the city in 1388. After some wars with Venice over the city, Florence finally came out on top and controlled the city until 1458. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:46, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dang. I'll make it a point to speed that up XD.
 * Scraw 00:48, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd advise against that ;) CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:52, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

In fact, you cannot play as the Ottomans if we start in 1350 because OH HEY THEY DIDN'T EXIST YET.

Othman I, the founder of the Ottoman Empire (ish, until 1420 it was disorganized and unimportant) was born in 1356 so ATL wouldn't be born at all; thus no Ottoman Empire would exist.

But I recommend we start in 1400 anyway because that was around the founding of the Kalmar Union.

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:21, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think 1400 is a good year to start.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:26, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

CORRECTION!!!! I WILL BE PERSIA!!!!!!! Either 1350 or 1400 ill still be a powerhouse :) DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 17:23, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

So as far as I can tell, Kogasa and Crim like 1400, Collie likes 1350, Scan has no opinion, and neither AP nor Lurk have posted in, wow, months now. Persia. Yeah, umm, no. That was 1500s. At this point, Persia was really weak. It was the Safavids who made Persia great again, in 1501. At this point you have a disorganized state recovering from the Ilkhanate. Still, it could be powerful. Have fun, Dean. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 19:11, September 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Really.Persia in 1350 will be divided among the Jalayrid, Chupanid, Muzaffarid, Hazaraspid, Baduspanid, Bavanid, Mihrabanid, Injuid and Kartid dynasties's domains, aside of the Gilite, Sarbadar and Shabankara kingdoms.don't forget Shirvan as well.It makes for a more interesting scenario, while in 1400 you'll have the Timurids in their peak.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:54, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Care to explain yourself in why you were deleting my reply?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:01, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Collie. Not intentional. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 13:33, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

If Airlines doesn't takes Byzantium i would like to have it, but I call dibs on France or Spain. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:12, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Spain is not a country. Byzantium was never the name of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was as good as dead. Iberia already houses Portugal and Aragon, so unless you want to be sandwiched in by them, I suggest France.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  01:16, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * And don't forget Navarra.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:01, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * OH Please start in 1400, oh please oh please :) Ill be a good Perisa XD Also, i can finally establish that Middle Eastern Empire i wanted to make in PM2 without the threat of Europe crusading me lol. And i promise NO CALIPHATE lol, im gonna be an Empire, pure and simple, and once i reahc my desired borders, which actually arent that insane, ill stop expanding and focus completley on staying on peaceful relations with everyone and get rich from trade, might establish a colony or two in East Afirca for trading bases, but otherwise stay totally focused on the homeland. DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 14:24, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: Am i Muslim at this time?


 * So, I am interested (obviously) in joining PM3 when it comes out. I am just considering nations to be. I enjoy European history from 1400-1800 the most, with Western History from 2000 BC-Present being interesting, also. I was thinking of being part of the HRE (Saxony?) or the Teutonic Order. Any other suggestions? Thanks,  (PS. I am also thinking Burgundy, but want to hear your thoughts)


 * I would also like to claim the Romans, but seeing as how two people claimed that already, I doubt I would get it. If not, I would like to call something Mongol, maybe the Golden Horde.
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:39, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lx may take Golden Horde but you could probably have some un with split-off in Siberia - that or unite a tribe like the Buryats or Yakuts in Siberia. I think I've setttled that I'm playing as the Nivkh people on the Amur River so OTL Russia could be crowded. (which I like) Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:16, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Scandinator

 * 1) Earlier start time would mean a new scenario. 1350 means Europe is at its lowest point while the Middle East is collapsing. 1400 means the Middle East has collapsed while Europe is at its most fractured. Both present interesting options for gameplay and opening moves.
 * 2) National Unity is important as if there are multiple ethnic and cultural groups unintegrated into the nation then there will be dissent and rebellion within your nation at peace and at war. However this will be hard to implement and maintain.
 * 3) Debuffs. The regions and nations of the world were good and bad at various areas. Certain areas fielded excellent cavalry, others had immense navies while others had archers and infantry beyond compare. Each area was ahead in its own field but behind in others; until you manage to work around it then you are weaker in a certain way in the algorithm or in another way.
 * 4) I fully support a rework of the industrialisation chart and implementation. Stricter guidelines and harsher penalities for those that step out of plausibility are also required. Some of the steps on the chart were only achievable near the end and it was obivous that some people were doing things just for the table and hadn't done research into what was possible or not.
 * 5) A rework of the colonisation system is also required. We have tiny nations like Cyprus with large colonial empires. True there were cases of such in OTL but they were single territories and/or scattered islands (Belgium and Holland). Im unsure about how to go about this though...
 * 6) Technological Advancement beyond OTL is a good point and should be implemented although carefully monitored to avoid exploitation.
 * 7) Firm rules on continental expansion are required especially for tribal nations. Mods should be very strict with the original size of the nation. In addition, continental expansion rates should be of a proportional value to the main nation instead of the current one value fits all.
 * 8) The idea for a neutral mod is good but implausible. They would soon lose interest.
 * 9) Im not quite sure what Scraw means, but currently all black land is the same, it completely ignores terrain. I believe that expansion in deserts, mountains and other difficult terrain should be slower while coastal and river expansion should be faster and easier.
 * 10) An algorithm rework on that scale will be open for corruption and misuse. Population covers for that at the moment
 * 11) Nonononononono.

Kogasa

 * 1) To be honest I liked it better starting around the 1400s. I think the next game should start in 1400.
 * 2) That can possibly work.
 * 3) I personally like to think that any nation I play, unless I mention something different, goes on similar to OTL. That includes industrial.
 * 4) I agree. What Scan said above.
 * 5) I think colonisation is fine the way it is now. But that's just me.
 * 6) I fully agree with this one. Why be limited to technology OTL when we have industrialisation earlier than OTL?
 * 7) Again, what Scan said.
 * 8) It would be difficult. I disagree.
 * 9) Once again, what Scan said. Actually now thinking about it, my expansion on Kamchatka was limited due to terrain, and I couldn't expand the full 10000 sq km maximum (it was cut to 5000 sq km maximum). But I guess that's a different story.
 * 10) No. I agree with Scan above on this issue.
 * No.

CrimsonAssassin

 * 1) It's Principia Moderni (beginning of the modern) for a reason. 1400 is a good start date.
 * 2) This is going to be a pain to work in. I remember trying to integrate stability into algorithms in PMI not going very well.
 * 3) This could be interesting, but I don't think it should be a debuff. I think we should reward players for completing goals (like Italy unifying or Britain having a huge empire)
 * 4) This
 * 5) What would really help is a mapmaker for Europe and one for Asia.
 * 6) This
 * 7) What Scan said, but also we shouldn't give non-European powers special treatment.
 * 8) He/she would lose interest quickly
 * 9) What Scan said
 * 10) From what I've seen, most people who aren't in PM say that they haven't joined because they think it's too late. It's never too late, of course, but with a rule like this, new players would quickly be overwhelmed. Even with an NPC bonus, it'd be a pain.
 * No

Collie Kaltenbrunner

 * 1) Both 1350 and 1400 are good start dates.But i favour personally 1350.
 * 2) This is a good idea, but wouldn't it be difficult to implement?
 * 3) What is that?
 * 4) I agree with Scan again.
 * 5) I guess so.
 * 6) We should be careful with that.
 * 7) I agree with Scan.
 * No, it wouldn't work.for instance, in PMI, by the 1950's, i basically had lost all interest in the game when the expansion possibilities had ended, and the only thing keeping me from leaving was the fact that i still needed to make the maps, and even then, my posts became strictly copy-pasting.Okay, this might not be the best example, but you get the point.Why somebody would try to moderate a game that he has no involvement on?
 * 1) I agree with Scan again.Expansion through the Appalachians and the Sahara, for example, really should be more difficult.Also, inland Africa and Australia, up to a point.
 * 2) I will go with Scan's opinion.
 * 3) And the scale of posts would double, since we would have two years in one post.For some, nothing would change, as their posts are already copy-pasting, but some would be stuck with walls of text.And then we would have to rework the algorythm and the colonial system, just for starters.Your idea had good intentions, but it is simply impracticable.

:The Semi-Official Claims for PM3
In the following format claim your nation in PM3

Nation Name: Your signature

Europe
**Brabant -- **Naples <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#202020 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color=maroon face="Helvetica">"I can feel your anger.   <font color="#ff0000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> It gives you focus...makes you stronger." **Navarre <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#202020 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color=maroon face="Helvetica">"I can feel your anger.   <font color="#ff0000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> It gives you focus...makes you stronger."
 * Roman Empire (Byzantines): Monster Pumpkin (talk) 00:33, October 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * England: I claimed England first! Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 17:28, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Florence: CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 19:44, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Bohemia:
 * Moravia --
 * Silesia --
 * Lusatia --
 * Brandenburg --   This is UglyTurtle, Signing off.
 * Luxembourg --
 * Bohemia's close to Hungary, right Imp? 
 * Rex does not control all of these states.
 * "Vassals", apparently. Hey, but I could use a bunch of them. I want the Baltic under my control, and some of these look awfully tempting, you know.
 * We can add our vassals?
 * I think so, but, the fact is: Brabant is independent, and in 1406 will be under Burgundian control.Bohemia can't control it.And also, you should give Luxembourg and Moravia to UglyTurtle, as in 1400, they are in personal union under Jobst of Moravia.
 * Russians(for now)-Lx (leave me a message) 19:59, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Crown of Aragon ~ Scraw 21:28, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Athens <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#202020 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Seal.png|15px|border|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color=maroon face="Helvetica">"I can feel your anger.   <font color="#ff0000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> It gives you focus...makes you stronger."
 * Sicily <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#202020 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Seal.png|15px|border|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color=maroon face="Helvetica">"I can feel your anger.   <font color="#ff0000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> It gives you focus...makes you stronger."
 * Sorry, but, since the game starts in 1400, Navarra and Naples are nowhere near being under your control.
 * Portugal: --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:34, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Castile : -#LivinLikeFeudal (talk) 20:32, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we start in 1400, the Kalmar Union. If in 1350, Denmark.
 * France:Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:26, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Teutonic Order: Yank 22:50, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Republic of Genoa:Flag of Nazi Austria (No Belgium).svgCancom2.jpgian, Hail Marius (Play With Oct!)Cancom2.jpgFlag of Nazi Austria (No Belgium).svg 02:07, September 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hungary: (maybe) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:48, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Croatia (PU): [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:37, October 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lordship of Jever : Callumthered (talk) 22:34, October 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Papal State:

Africa

 * Ethiopia - Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:26, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Asia

 * Ashikaga Shogunate/Japan - Kogasa
 * China - Scandinator (talk)
 * Empire of Trebizond:
 * Nivkh People (Amur River area): Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:18, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * if I can't get back England( someone removed my claim) then I will take Nippon( Japan)Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) (I already claimed Japan though. -Kogasa)
 * Vijarayana empire  Praetorian_Flag.png RoG_Flag.png Mafia (Questions?) Falklands Flag.png

Middle East

 * Perisa/Timurids: DS|The Rainbow Machete 19:38, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yemen: Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 03:42, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

North America
ApacheGrantzu (talk) 22:04, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mayans/Aztecs (depending on start date) - CourageousLife (talk) 02:37, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of start date, the Aztec Triple Alliance wouldn't have formed yet, unless you want to start really small.
 * ​Would it be feasable for me to wait to enter the game until the Aztec Triple Alliance forms in 1428? CourageousLife (talk) 21:10, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

PMIII Changes

 * 1) The start will be in 1400. I advise no-one to take the Golden Horde or the Empire of Timur the Lame. They will all be broken-up to smaller states as the Golden Horde is too disunified and the Timur Empire, too reliant on Timur himself for stability.
 * 2) In the light of national unity being ignored in PMII. It will be integrated with expansion.
 * 3) There will also be special algorithm modifiers to work for. Examples include the unifications of France, Iberia, Italy, UK, Germany, Scandinavia, Russia, India, etc. With each of those worth about 1-5 points while you hold it. And the control of key trade routes and points, like the Oresund, Gibraltar, Malacca, Aden, Venice, Bombay, Hangshou. etc. With each trade area worth an extra 1 or 2 points.
 * 4) The industrialization chart will be reworked and any nation that attempts to get the points ahead of time or without an appropriate reason will be heavily penalized.
 * 5) The colonial system will be reworked based on distance, security, and naval and economic strength.
 * 6) Technology will be allowed to advance past OTL but will be heavily monitored. The Industrial Era will start in 1700 like PMII but depending on which nation's get it sooner, then the process can be accelerated and we might need Mars and Moon maps.
 * 7) Tribal nations will start as that. One tribe, no larger than 4 px in areas with good land and about 100 in desert and badlands. Expansion from that will be at either 1% of current size or 1px, which ever is bigger. (Which will also be the rate of land expansion for all countries in their home continent.) You can convince other tribes to join you which would take several years. Thanks to this rule, nations like the Koori Union will be unable to form and expansion will be based on your current size and not the one size fits all policy that PMII has. I believe it effectively shows the challenges that tribes face in attempting to modernize and catch up from hunter-gatherer societies to a centralized or feudalized kingdom and nation.
 * 8) Terrain will be implemented on the map for colonial expansion.
 * 9) Start time will be changed back to 00:00 UTC to prevent confusion.

Discussion
All these points seem pretty good. Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:56, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

I still prefer 1350.We should do a votation among the mods for that, as there are still some mods (Yank) who haven't expressed if they prefer 1350 and 1400.Scan is fine with either of them, and Kogasa and Crim prefer 1400.for me, 1350 is a more interesting scenario, and prevents us from dealing with Dean as the Timurids, or something like that.The rest sound like good ideas.But i think that if we implement terrain on the actual map, mapmaking will be much more difficult.terrain modifiers are important, alright, but there must be another way of implementing those without complicating the mapmaking process.And i think that technology advance should not be too far from OTL, otherwise PMIII will eventually fall into the ASB category, and this means that the game is a failure, no matter how long it lasts.I remember Imperial Europe II.that's the best example of that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:49, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

I would like too it too start in 1350 and if i'm allowed to say, for national unity you should give some sort of bonus, for a period longer that 15 years. that or add a score per the times a nation is bigger in size than the nation they are fighting. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:42, September 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I still think it should be 1400. 1350 isn't really beginning of anything new. The game is meant to start right after the end of the black death, and I think 1350 will lose that. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:03, September 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I concur with Imp, 1350 is a mess, I personally feel 1400 serves better.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 17:21, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:08, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree with firmer tribal rules, but I have to say this suggestion is a bit restrictive for those of us that play that game. I really don't think the goal should be to PREVENT something like the Koori Union from forming but rather to force it to take time and Normal steps toward civilization. For instance, if Hail had started building hte Koori in 1400 with the goal of making them a standalone civilization by 1700, I think that should be achievable. A lot of us play with the express goal of forcing a major flip in the progress of history - that shouldn't be impossible, it should just take a lot of time and patience. As an addendum, not all "tribes" are created equal. The group I plan on playing in PM3 is significantly more advanced than the Selk'nam when I started and could eaily be made more powerful with just a few tweaks to the Progress of neighboring China and Manchuria. If the goal is to force the game to flow along the OTL timeline, what's the point? Commandante Lemming (talk) 19:31, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

And is nobody going to comment on my other suggestions, or: if we implement terrain on the actual map, mapmaking will be much more difficult.terrain modifiers are important, alright, but there must be another way of implementing those without complicating the mapmaking process.And i think that technology advance should not be too far from OTL, otherwise PMIII will eventually fall into the ASB category, and this means that the game is a failure, no matter how long it lasts.I remember Imperial Europe II.that's the best example of that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:19, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

I do think limits on tech are a good idea - some advancement ok but not sure how moon colonies would look - there are space-themed games for that. I don't do mapmaking so the use of terrain is up to y'all. Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:32, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against terrain, but we should have more rivers. Such as the Nile or the Mississippi.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #00ff00; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#0000ff" face="Helvetica">"Fear leads to anger. <font color=navy face="Helvetica"> Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to    <font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> suffering."  20:29, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, the river exists, although actually showing them on the map would be very useful, As long as they are not used implausibly.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:47, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

I would like to suggest a relatively fundamental change to the forthcoming installment. The proposal is so that even though you may fail to post for a day or two, your nations' colonial growth and their economic/militaristic development will not simply stop.

This feature is, in and of itself, implausible. We must strive to make nations without players just as formidable as nations with players. I will also suggest more mod events. Also, we should get rid of infrastructure as a point on the algorithims, since it is rarely ever used. Thanks for listening, Sept. 28, 2013


 * No. Do you realize that if it was like that, inactivity would be non-existent (because if you can just not post, there is no way for inactivity to exist), and nobody would have any motivation to post regularly, just for starters?.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:45, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

Portugal
Total: 64 x 1.4 = 89.6 = 90
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: Portugal (L), Brasil (M), León (MV), Castille (MV), Aragon (MV), Granada (M), Barcelona (SV), Majorca (SV) = 18/8 = 2
 * Military Development: 10/3 = 3
 * Economy: 20/4 = 5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit Count: 5205
 * UTC Time: 21:00
 * 5205/2 x pi = 8175.99488
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Post-A'Asabist nations
Total: 34
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: L = 8/18 = 0
 * Military Development: 6/2 = 3 = 3/10 = 0
 * Economy: 8/2 = 4 = 4/20 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 8/2 = 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
90/124 -0.5 x 2 = 0.451612904

Portugal can get 45,1% of the post-A'Asabist states.

(45,1)*(1-1/(4)) = 33,82500

The war has to last two years in order to annex the state completely.

Rex / De Mor Tir
Hey all - saw the stuff about Rex. Just so you all know, I have a long standing deal with Rex that he can take over the Falkland Islands (De Mor Tir) as an independent nation if he gets blown off the map. If he doesn't get banned, I'm going to honor this deal with the condition that he stays my vassal and that he doesn't start any wars of expansion (he wouldn't have the military force to do so anyway). He's interested in playing this nation and interested in staying in the game, and seeing as he'd be essentially playing a nation on par with Hong Kong or Singapore in OTL, I think it's a good "training nation" for him regarding how to use  soft rather than hard power. I'll take responsibility for whatever he does, and part of the deal I offered him is that if things go South I will take him out myself.

Hopefully that's a significantly harsh deal to keep him in the game - I really do think he can be a positive contributor here.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 05:08, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Just keep in mind that a lot of us are going to scrutinize on wether or not he proves that he can avoid his past mistakes. Yank 02:16, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

International Time Standardizing Conference
Ohai. Neu Berlin, inspired by Russia, has decided that the whole dangfangling world needs to standardize time. All heads of state or government are invited to meet in Neu Berlin and discuss how time should be organized globally. Neu Berlin proposes a +x -x system like Russia, but centered on another city. Neu Berlin proposes the cities of Venice, Novgorod, or Neu Berlin as the location of the zero hour.

22:15, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

The Selk'nam dissent, saying that none of the major powers should hold the zero hour - instead it is suggested that the zero hour be set at Jerusalem, a city acknowledged by all Christians as holy (and conveniently located between the Asian and European powers). Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:23, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Neu Berlin, even though majority Christian, says this is offensive, since many nations, Neu Berlin included, have no state religion.

22:25, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

A Selk'nam delegate becomes incensed at this remark and declares that he wishes to "take the proposal from the honorable delegates from New Berlin, wad it into a tiny ball, and personally shove it up their blasphemous rear ends!" This delegate is immediately removed by his fellow Selk'nam negotiators, however the Selk'nam stand by the proposal that the zero hour should not be held by any major power's capital and should be located between major powers. Another proposal is made seeking to draw the line through the middle of the Atlantic as to give no-one primacy - with the main clock being located on the Portuguese Azorean islands. Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:32, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Germany will not allow religion to interfer with matters of the state. Germany believes that the meridian should go through the city of Bristol.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 00:48, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

<Guns pops out from alternate dimension>

<Slaps delegates like Lincoln>

Put it in the Ocean, fools!

<Pops back into OTL>

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  00:53, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

While the Mayans are fond of the idea of a zero-hour at Jerusalem, they agree that it should be seperate from religion, and shouldn't be any nation's capital. The Mayan delegates back the proposal of puting it in the Atlantic Ocean. CourageousLife (talk) 03:06, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Neu Berlin would like to support the idea of a meridian in one of the two major oceans, but argues that this would make it complicated to tell time when at sea.

03:12, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Most Holy Emperor of Ethiopia, while intrigued by the idea of having the zero hour at Jerusalem, believes that it should be centered on Venice for the following reasons: Neu Berlin is not relevant enough to be granted that honor, Jerusalem is too closely associated with a single major religion, and finally, Venice is the dominate power of the globe and has thus earned that honor by right. We have made our position. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:36, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Saxon delegates believe that having the "Prime Meridian" in the middle of the Atlantic ocean is the best option. Contrary to what Neu Berlin says, this would not cause any problems. All that would be required is for one clock in every maritime city be synced with the time at that oceanic meridian. Ship's chronometers would then be synced to those clocks, therefore allowing them to determine their longtitude compared to the Atlantic Prime Meridian. Callumthered (talk) 03:43, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

China proposes that the meridian be defined by an important colonized island, such as Dongfang (Middle of the Pacific) or <whatever the hell Bermuda is right now> (Middle of the Atlantic)  CrimsonAssassin  - "I have special eyes"   03:45, November 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Portugese Azories have been proposed as well. CourageousLife (talk) 03:46, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Shogun Rokkaku Takahito of Japan refuses to partake in the International Standardised Time, and will continue to have his nation continue its old practice of telling time. -Kogasa  2013 November 13, 05:53 (CET)

'''Japan has problems. '''

The Selk'nam point out that the Azores option would prevent any nation's mainland from holding the meridian (the only other landmass on the Prime Meridian would be Greenland). This would not be the case with Bermuda, in which case the Meridian would bisect Atlantia an run through New Berlin. The idea of a mid-Pacific meridian is questioned as there would be few nations close to the meridian given the ocean's size, and also the greater isolation of the Meridian island. Commandante Lemming (talk) 04:00, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

A delegate from the Attican Union is forcibly removed after reportedly telling a Japanese delegate to, "come off it, you stuck-up stubborn isolationist son of a she-guanaco!" :-P Commandante Lemming (talk) 04:04, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Saxon delegate agrees that the Azores is probably best, as it would allow an actual population to keeo the time. Callumthered (talk) 04:08, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Mayan delegates will support the Azores as the location of the zero-hour. CourageousLife (talk) 04:16, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

If such a comprimse is best, then so to do the delegates of His Imperial Majesty of Ethiopia agree with Azores as the location of the zero hour. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:39, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Hellenic Union's delegates agree to a meridian based in the Azores. Airlinesguy (talk) 07:24, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Italian Empire and all its associate territories declare that they will follow Venezia Mean Time. Scandinator (talk) 10:48, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Russian Delegation notices somehting, if you put the prime meridean anywhere, then you will always create an "International date line" exactly 180 degrees from the meridean...Russia suggests we set the In. Date line in such a way, as to make it more convenient and so nations do not need to change dates in the middle of their territory, in the middle of oceans for the Int date line is proposed.(Actualy, this is why GMT/UTC works so well, Since the date line ends up being between Russia and Alaska)-Lx (leave me a message) 13:56, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Bavarian Germans agree that it is to be free from the mainland grasp of any world power, including Italia and Germany, and thus the Azores would fit better. Bavaria asks Japan to reconsider, as the timeline is in neutral areas and would v astly improve the speed of Japanese industry as well as the aid they recieve from European nations.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 15:00, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Selk'nam delegates note that the Azores would work well with the "date line concept" as the "date line would only run through the Russian Far East, and would pass between Austalis and the Maori Lands (it's only a one time zone offset from OTL, only country on a different side of the line is New Zealand). However, it is noted that the Azores Meridian could also be used as the dateline, caluculating "true midnight" rather than "true noon". Under the proposed "True Midnight" method, the date line would be at the Prime Meridian and time zones would be numbered from UTC +0 just East of the meridian to UTC +24 just West of the meridian (In OTL we separate the meridian and the dateline and number zones from UTC -12 to UTC +12). It is suggested that the "True Midnight" system would be a more efficient solution to the date line problem as it would merge the Prime Meridian and the dateline, and the dateline would then only run through the Azores and Greenland. Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:13, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Empress Go-Shōtoku apologises for the Shogun's ignorance and will think about establishing a time zone for Japan soon. As for where to set the date line, absolute neutral areas work best. -Kogasa  2013 November 13, 21:31 (CET)

Russia proposes, ithat if we must move the prime meridian away from novgorod,  that we set the Prime Meridean at a neutral spot, the Bering Strait.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:06, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The United Maharajya thinks it would be best to have the International Date Line run through the Azores. We are also interested in looking into the True Midnight method - but are currently leaning toward the true noon method. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:19, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Neu Berlin supports True Midnight through the Bering Strait.

22:08, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Italia cites that the International Date Line will have sever consequences for the "Empire on which the sun never sets" with either option cutting between Atlantic trade or through the colony of Pacifico. Scandinator (talk) 00:38, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Selk'nam delegates point out that the Bering Straight would be a very remote and inhospitable place to staff a universal clock and time service. The Asores on the other hand are remote but populated and have a good climate, which would make the "Time Islands" an attractive place to both live and visit.Commandante Lemming (talk) 03:32, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Do colonies and vassals get a vote below, or just main nations? CourageousLife (talk) 03:38, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

@Lemming: Would cross through New Zealand, New Zealand is perfectly good as well.

'''@CL: Vassals, yes. Colonies, no.'''

03:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Whichever location is chosen, that meridian becomes the Prime Meridian, or 0.

Azores - 28th Meridian West

Bering Straight - 169th Meridian West

CourageousLife (talk) 04:03, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it looks like we're going to have absolute midnight, so we won't have an IDL or anything.

04:14, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

True Midnight-

 * Bavaria
 * Neu Berlin
 * Russia and Asociates
 * Japan
 * Mayan Empire
 * Zapotec
 * Lakin
 * New Ceatl (Madura)
 * Selk'nam Haruwin
 * Yagich Rafael
 * Attican Union
 * Kanada
 * River Lakota
 * Saxony

True Noon-

 * Tojiko
 * Himekaidou
 * Kasodani
 * Greater Transcaucasia

Azores-

 * Bavaria
 * De Mor Tir
 * Italia
 * Siam
 * Malacca
 * Aymaras
 * Oaxaca
 * Selk'nam Haruwin
 * Yagich Rafael
 * Attican Union
 * Pure Science
 * Eternal Matter
 * Britannica
 * Carthage
 * Australis
 * Saxony
 * Hellenic Union
 * Cyrenaica
 * Athamos
 * Tamania
 * United Maharajya
 * Maharajyan Uttarshina

Bering Strait-

 * Neu Berlin
 * Tojiko
 * Himekaidou
 * Kasodani
 * Russia
 * Ukraine
 * Belorussia
 * Eesti
 * Baltica
 * Kazakhstan Federation
 * Japan
 * Mayan Empire
 * Zapotec
 * Lakin
 * New Ceatl (Madura)
 * Kanada
 * River Lakota
 * Greater Transcaucasia
 * China
 * Korea
 * Myanmar

1888
Once again, another round of voting.go to Olympic Games (Principia Moderni II Map Game).--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:10, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

UER
Just an fyi, the UER is the bigger but kinder brother to the OTL USSR. And the breakup will be messier XD Scandinator (talk) 12:35, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

What. do we already have communists in 1890?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:33, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, an equivalent, but yes. They're called Equalists. CrimsonAssassin - "I have special eyes"   14:43, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Everything in this timeline has advanced further than OTL On a side note, Germany recently had a mild series of revolts, but the Eqaulists are not done, they ask for Eqaulist aid to overthrow the capitalistic and corrupt system.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 18:44, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Karl Marx (Founder of Communism) was in the mid-1800s, long before the 1890s. And Socialism existed even prior to that. So.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  19:35, November 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * What Andr3w said below.there were no countries following communism in 1890 in OTL.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:22, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

I know this, I was referring to its popularity, which was not terribly noticed OTL until the Bolshevik revolutions.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 19:55, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Actually an earlier emergence of pseudo-communism could be fun. It wouldn't have been impossible (French revolution happened OTL and that was a similar radical strain) and the 1890s aren't that far ahead of the real life Russian revoluition - plus russia was not Europe's most advanced country at the time - so Italia being the venue makes it mor plausible. Plus we've already had Pure Science ideology take over several countries and that one is also based on Fascism and Communism (I should know since I invented it). Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:56, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Is it possible that some of the republics of the UER would not like Equalism, and would then revolt from the UER?

22:06, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Socialism was prevalent in many countries however.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  22:07, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

But someone has to be Finland and the Baltic States and Transcaucasia, no?

22:16, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone post a list of the new Equalist nations? CourageousLife (talk) 22:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Just everything green on the map since it's Italia right now Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:31, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Nigeria & Mali
Total: 57 x 1.6 = 91
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Nigeria (L), Mali (L) = 8/4 = +2
 * Military Development: 5/3 = +2
 * Economy: 5/3 = +2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3 +3 = +6
 * Chance: +2
 * Edit Count: 3,900
 * UTC Time: 2*2*4*8=128
 * 3900/128*pi=95.72040116407031
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28 (55,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -10

Bonoman
Total: 39
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Bonoman (L) = 4/8 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/5 = +1
 * Economy: 3/5 = +1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +7 (2,150,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Nigeria and Mali may claim 33.33% of Bonoman, toppling its government.
 * ((91/(39+91))*2)-1 = 0.4 = 40%
 * (40)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 33.3333333333333333 = 33.33%

Labelled Map/20th century plans
Just because this gets brought up every now and again - is there any way to do a new labelled map since our last one is like 200 years old? Is thre any way to crowdsource it to take work off mapmakers? I know my territories confuse people and a few others confuse me.

Also, since we're about to hit massive tech advancements and a lot of changes, should we have a discussion about who's planning what for the 20th Century. I know some of that is strategic and secret but I know some of us probably have plans that we don't mind putting out publicly because we know others will want to help - I know I have a few of those that I don't mind everyone knowing about becasue I think you will have fun with them. So is there anything I can help all of you with? (or fight you on to give you a straw man?). What are everyone's national priorities moving past 1900? I think we can probably have a better 20th Century if we have collaboration on events.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:29, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes good god we need a new labelled map.

Also, no to that second part.

22:35, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I figured not a lot of takers on that second one - I'm probably on of the few who doesn't mind having my plans out in the open because I'm not planning on conquering anything.

If anyone wants to know, my plan for the 20th Century is to become the OTL Macau and base my ecoomy on casinos and tourism - oh and I'll be antagonizing the enviro-movement with all the potential ecological problems I've been quietly seeding for the last 200 years...I would appreciate y'all's help on those.

I meant little stuff like that. But then again my goal in this game is to influence the timeline in entertaining and unexpected way - I'm not aiming for great power status, I'm just aiming to drive global history in ways that seem odd. I'm not a power player so much as a mischief maker, and so-far i like my results :-)

Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:45, November 21, 2013 (UTC)