Talk:Gansu (1983: Doomsday)

Lanzhou
Lanzhou was nuked.

Moreover, this proposal lies in a small open area between three nations, two of which would have actively moved against it long ago. Have a look at the China article.

Nor does those boundaries make any sense at all, Guns. There's no way a state is going to look like that.

It's just not plausible, Guns.

Lordganon 00:09, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

... Ok, Lanzhou I guess.

The states bordering it would have been pretty weak immediately post-dd, and Gansu is pretty large anyhoo, I'm sure it could survive. Against the full force of Tibet, maybe not, but it only borders the sphere of influence. Same for the PRC. GunsnadGlory 19:20, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

So wait, would the area be anexxed by the three nations in some form? Oh, the flag and CoA need changing. :D Imperium Guy 19:34, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't find anywhere with a Gansu CoA or flag, and honestly, my efforts on GIMP or Photoshop leave much to be desired. I cannot photoshop a flag for my life, and a CoA will be even harder.

There were more nations, of course, but basically, yeah. Most of inhabitable China would have been annexed by these three countries. GunsnadGlory 19:41, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Flag
I can help for a flag. Tell me what do you think (reasonably) how Gansu's flag would look? :D Imperium Guy 19:43, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Imp, I really owe you one.

As for the flag, I imagine some similarity to China's, so say 12 gold stars in a circle, with a dragon in the center, against a red background.

If you are willing to do the CoA too... 2 tigers and a dragon? GunsnadGlory 19:57, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Gansu is HUGE. It is way larger than the PRC, way too far from Tibet, and could easily hold off Ugyhur. GunsnadGlory 20:06, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Kind of realised that, you map is VERY misleading!! The flag is under construction, BTW!! :D Imperium Guy 20:11, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Here is the flag, ta da!! The best this is, its editable!! :D Imperium Guy 20:27, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

The main point
...You guys have kinda missed the point.

Not only is those borders not at all plausible, but there's no way on earth that they could hold them.

The PRC would have fought this nation long ago. It may not control much, but it's gone beyond its borders several times, in large numbers.

More than anything, however, is that it is not Ugyhur. The Ugyhurs are actually part of the Soviet Union. Which calls itself the claimant to the PRC's territory, and claims all China. Simply put, there is no way that they would possibly allow such a thing to exist. And it's something that they've shown several times, now, as being something they take very seriously. Sharing a border with them is a deathwish. Heck, in coming years the two closest Chinese states will get roasted by them, even.

This is something that, simply put, there is no way can exist here.

Guns, you've got to remember, that just because there is no state in a spot, does not mean that one can exist there.

Moreover, the PRC remnant is pretty weak, and in all likelihood, will not be around long. China'll be left in far more than three states, in the end, too.

Lordganon 03:14, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Hey LG, its been mentioned a couple times, but I went to look but couldn't find it, could you point me to where it states the USSR considers itself the successor to the PRC? Oerwinde 11:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Then the China map is goung to need changing for the south-western part to be Tibetian Influence, a small northern portion Soviet and a small eastern portion PRC control. Imperium Guy 11:29, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

The PRC can go beyond it's borders whenever. It stands zero chance against Gansu.

Ugyhur might, but that would require a full scale war.

Tibet would worry about the USSR influence right on their borders, and would probably support Gansu.

Love the flag, Imp. GunsnadGlory 19:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Guns. Although he needs to go to "great" detail how it was formed, which I might add to and it would definately not control the whole of the region properly, but with firefoms, it is still possible that this state could and would exist. Imperium Guy 19:27, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Re PRC vs Gansu: Keep in mind that Gansu doesn't exist yet, and has to pass community consesus before it does. The PRC remnant is both more populous and more developed, and Gansu had its major transportation and industrial hub nuked, essentially splitting the province in half, which would hinder any growth as a unified state. The area is also where clashes between the PRC and the Imperial Chinese leadership lead to the Imperials fleeing east I believe, I may be wrong on that though. There is a lot to work through before we can grad this.Oerwinde 19:42, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. :D Imperium Guy 19:45, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

To clarify my more populous comment as the article has a wildly inflated population. Lanzhou was the largest population centre and the centre of the province's nuclear power. Nuking it would cast immense clouds of fallout all over the southern part of the province, which was the most densely settled and agriculturally rich. This would essentially kill the food supply and result in millions of deaths due to radiation. The Yellow River would be contamimated affecting water supply for at least the first few months, but likely longer. Also, the population in 1983 was around 20 million, so cutting out about 6-8 million due to the south's annihilation puts that at around 12-14 million, with little food and water that is not going to grow until those supplies can be stabilized. In fact it will drop.Oerwinde 19:56, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well the one-child policy would be abolished. BTW, I haven't read about the one-child policy on any Chinese article posrt-dd. So we would have starving, then no growth and then slow but steady growth. So it will fall to 12 million then not grow and then grow. That would give us a present population of around 18-20 million. :D Imperium Guy 20:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Oer, to answer your question about them claiming to be the successor, you're right, it doesn't say so on the Socialist Siberia page, I'll add that in. It does however state that Taiwan and Siberia are at odds over their claims in China. Also, the map of the USSR has the rest of China outlined gray, signifying their claims. And guys, LG has about it being way to close for comfort to the PRC and the USSR. The territory should be revised a bit.Vladivostok 21:34, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I have got the territory near the USSR and the PRC as firefoms to make it look like they are no threat while the main territory is inside that. And I have to agree with guns about the Republic being able to hold of the PRC if they ever came, which they haven't. :D Imperium Guy 22:04, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nearly doubling in population in that time would be unrealistic without stable sources of food and fresh water. Not to mention all the cancer without access to decent medical care. The 12 million would be after the immediate bombing and radiation deaths. Starvation and lawlessness would result in even more population decline, lets say another 4 million over the first 10 years. Without food you can't have rapid population growth because that would just cause more starvation so the growth rate won't be like OTL when it was like 15%

Now with the major transportation hub linking north and south destroyed, and no fuel coming in, transportation between north and south is going to make uniting it very difficult. The PRC is going to be much more organized simply because they won't have gone through a revolution establishing a democracy, and their territory is mostly loyal communists. Keep in mind that a lot of the Chinese have been indoctrinated, so a large % of the population truly believes in the communist ideals. Encountering the legitimate remains of the PRC would cause a lot of unrest in a fledgling republic because a large % of the Gansu population would see them as the legitimate government rather than the Gansu government.Oerwinde 09:15, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Another note, Gansu has through history seen hampered growth and development due to common drought, famine, and earthquakes. I didn't see its large population growth until resource extraction began expanding in the region. With no reason to extract these resources with no one to buy them and no local use for them, there would likely be an exodus of people as well to more fertile lands.Oerwinde 09:27, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Vlad's got it, Oer, plus he's said that on talk pages before.

Guys, the one-child policy was only started in 1979. And barely enforced in rural areas, at the time. It had no real effect on this area by the time of Doomsday. The population would not have an increase in rate of growth because of a lack of that policy, as it was barely in existence.

As I've said already, the PRC remnant, while pathetic compared to Siberia, is probably the strongest of the mainland powers, or not far off. It also has a history of large, heavily armed, bodies of troops moving around outside its borders. They'd have fought this thing long ago.

Again, such a state cannot possibly exist so close to Siberia.

Really, this thing has powers that would be hostile to it on three sides. It occupies a tiny strip between them, and one in a very odd shape, at that. No chance at all of defending itself.

You're over-inflating any power anything here would have, Guns and Imp.

Oer is right as well, that this is an area where the Imperials and PRC fought a bit before the Imperials fled east.

Population is more than double what it would have, as well.

Overall, this thing really just isn't possible, guys.

As I said before, every spot on the map isn't going to have a state. This is one of those spots, honestly.

Lordganon 12:22, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Gansu could be made like this as well. The Imperialist fought over 20 years ago, with the PRC not even covering its present area. Fine, another a quarter of the present population gone. Tibet won't be harsh, after it becomes democratic and the PRC is still a bit away, same with Siberia. :D Imperium Guy 12:31, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Drought
Drought can be negated due to the increase in rainfall in many regions of the planet. You are right about the infrastructure and other topics, so I am trying to incorporate all these into the article to make it more plausible. The resources would be bought by Tibet due to their need for construction due to the immigration happening in their country. They would trade these for fertilizer. I think the final population now shold be around 15 million, no less. :D Imperium Guy 11:11, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

...Except that the rainfall increases don't start for at best, a decade after DD. Lordganon 12:09, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Who did this?
Who is this? Someone just wrote something rather rude on the article, I think his username is Griffin3. ? I've put the WIC template in place. GunsnadGlory 20:54, February 14, 2012 (UTC)