Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Archives: to 10/27/16 ● to 12/22/16 =Algorithms=

Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 2]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 3]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 3]

Year One, 1664
Pre-War Stage
 * English Arcadia: 85.16
 * Population: +29.16
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 47.4
 * Population: +1.4
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +20

Battle Stage
 * English Arcadia: 26.36
 * Troops: +28.36 (2.4*1.4+25)
 * Location: +2
 * Blunder: -4
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 3.2
 * Troops: +1.2
 * Location: +4
 * Blunder -2

220% for English Arcadia

Battle Stage Two
 * English Arcadia: 25.36
 * Troops: +28.36 (2.4*1.4+25)
 * Location: +2
 * Blunder: -5
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 4.2
 * Troops: +1.2
 * Location: +4
 * Blunder -1

223% for the English

Battle Stage Two
 * English Arcadia: 27.36
 * Troops: +28.36 (2.4*1.4+25)
 * Location: +2
 * Blunder: -3
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 3.2
 * Troops: +1.2
 * Location: +4
 * Blunder -2

231% for English Arcadia.

674% total for the english.

Bilzen Front
Pre-War Stage
 * English Arcadia: 85.16
 * Population: +29.16
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 86.2
 * Population: +30.2
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30

Battle stage Battle stage pt 2 Battle stage pt 3 Battle stage pt 4
 * Burgundy: 26
 * Army: 6 (10,000), 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -1
 * English Arcadia: .3
 * Army: .3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -4
 * Result: 131% Burgundian victory
 * Burgundy: 26
 * Army: 6 (10,000), 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -1
 * English Arcadia: .3
 * Army: .3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -4
 * Result: 131% to Burgundy
 * Burgundy: 25
 * Army: 6 (10,000), 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -2
 * English Arcadia: .3
 * Army: 1.3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -3
 * Result: 130% to Burgundy
 * Burgundy: 24
 * Army: 6 (10,000), 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -3
 * English Arcadia: .3
 * Army: 1.3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -4
 * Result: 130% to Burgundy, 522% total victory Bilzen is liberated.

Kobec/Avalon Front
Pre-War Stage
 * English Arcadia: 49.36
 * Population: +3.36
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 86.2
 * Population: +30.2
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +20

Battle stage Battle stage pt 2
 * Burgundy: 28.4
 * Army: 6 (10,000) * 1.4, 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -1
 * English Arcadia: .3
 * Army: .3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -4
 * Result: 230% Burgundian victory
 * Burgundy: 26.2
 * Army: 6 (10,000) * 1.4, 25 (50 ships)
 * location: -4
 * Blunder: -3
 * English Arcadia: 3.3
 * Army: .3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -1
 * Result: 209% Burgundian victory, 439% victory Kobe /Avalon falls

Bilzen Front
Pre-War Stage
 * English Arcadia: 85.16
 * Population: +29.16
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30
 * Burgundian Arcadia: 86.2
 * Population: +30.2
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +20
 * Tech: +30

Battle stage 101% to Burgundy
 * Burgundy: 26
 * Army: 3 (10,000), 28 (50 ships + advantage)
 * location: 4
 * Blunder: -1
 * English Arcadia: 33.8 - 25% (siege detriment) = 25.35
 * Army: 35 (70 ships), 4.8 (16k troops)
 * Location: -4
 * Blunder: -2
 * Casualties: 500 to Burgundy, 4,000 to England (1-1 siege detriment)

Battle stage 2 108% to Burgundy
 * Burgundy: 31
 * Army: 3 (9,500), 28 (50 ships + advantage)
 * location: 4
 * Blunder: -4
 * English Arcadia: 30.6 - 25% = 22.95
 * Army: 35 (70 ships), 3.6 (12k troops)
 * Location: -4
 * Blunder: -4
 * Casualties: 500 to Burgundy, 3,000 to England

Battle stage 2 Casualties: 450 to Burgundy, 2,250 to England 110% to Burgundy
 * Burgundy: 31.7
 * Army: 2.7 (9,000), 28 (50 ships + advantage)
 * location: 4
 * Blunder: -3
 * English Arcadia: 28.7 - 25% = 21.525
 * Army: 35 (70 ships), 2.7 (9k troops)
 * Location: -4
 * Blunder: -5

319%, Burgundy holds Bilzen, England is repelled with heavy losses.

Discussion
The presumption that we move no troops is false, we can see you coming from a long way away because you have to sail from Burgundy to Arcadia we can move troops to defend. I also have 50 ships in the region which you have ignored. Your population is not that high considering your colony has less population and you have to take 60% of your home population score away. Also I don't think you can include ships in a land attack. Person67 (talk) 08:09, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

You can include ships in a land siege if the target is a coastal city, and Feud upheld the current numbers. I am that guy (talk) 15:18, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Fine but how many times have I said, your not allowed to delete someone else's algo. Your allowed to place comments in the discussion but your not allowed to change it like you just did. This is very annoying. Person67 (talk) 16:19, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Scandinavian Invasion of Prussia

 * Pre-war stage
 * Scandinavia: 51
 * Population: 20
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 15
 * Technology: 10
 * Burgundy-Prussia: 112
 * Population: 50
 * Government: 7
 * Economy: 25
 * Technology: 30
 * Battle stage
 * Battle of Neumünster
 * Scandinavia: 6.5
 * Army size: 15
 * Location: -3.5
 * Blunder: -5
 * Burgundy-Prussia: 19.8
 * Army size: 12 * 1.4 = 16.8
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder: -1
 * Result: 229% Prusso-Burgundian victory, Scandinavia is forced to retreat from Holstein.

Prewar Stage

 * Sicily: 71
 * ​Population: 26 (6,500,000)
 * Government: 5 (Elective Monarchy)
 * Economy: 20 (Tier IV)
 * Technology: 20 (Tier IV)
 * ​Italian League: 42
 * ​Population: 16 (4,000,000)
 * Government: 6 (Oligarchy)
 * Economy: 10 (Tier III)
 * Technology: 10 (Tier III)

Battle Stage

 * Battle of Ancona (1667)
 * Sicily: total 47 - blunder
 * ​Army size: 15 (65,000 troops, deploying 75%)
 * Navy size: naval 31 (610 ships, deploying 10%)
 * Location: 1 (Near Coast)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: blunder score
 * Italian League: 38 - blunder
 * ​Army size: 9 (30,000)
 * Navy size: 28 (370 ships, deploying 15%)
 * Location: 1 (Near Coast)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: blunder score

Final Stage

 * Sicily: 118 - blunder
 * Italian League: 80 - blunder
 * Final Result: 147.5%

Discussion
This is my first algo run of the new algorithm, so please feel free to suggest improvements! 03:35, May 6, 2017 (UTC)

Aryavartiya-Orissi/Andhra War

 * Pre War Stage
 * Aryavarta (Attacking)- 96
 * Population- +50
 * Government- +6
 * Economy- +20
 * Technology- +20
 * Orissa and Andhra (Defending)- 35
 * ​Population- +16
 * Government- +5
 * Economy- +7
 * Technology- +7
 * War Stage
 * Battle of Kurupam 1666
 * Aryavarta: 62
 * ​Troops 60
 * Location +2
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Orissa and Andhra: 9
 * ​Troops 7
 * Location +2
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: 360%. Decisive Aryavartiya victory. Orissi and Andhra forces retreat with 35% casualties.
 * ​Aryavarta Score  158
 * Orissa and Andhra Score 44
 * Battle Tier
 * Siege of Paradwip 1667
 * Aryavarta: 71
 * ​Troops 75
 * Location -4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Orissa and Andhra: 8
 * ​Troops 4
 * Location +6
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: 400%. Decisive Aryavartiya victory. Paradwip remains under siege.
 * ​Aryavarta Score  169
 * Orissa and Andhra Score 45
 * Battle Tier
 * 2nd year of the Siege of Paradwip 1668
 * Aryavarta: 71
 * ​Troops 75
 * Location -4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Orissa and Andhra: 8
 * ​Troops 4
 * Location +6
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: 400%. Siege score crosses 500% (800%). Paradwip falls and Orissa and Andhra surrender and are annexed by Aryavarta.
 * ​Aryavarta Score  169
 * Orissa and Andhra Score 45
 * Battle Tier

=Complaints and Upgrades=

Changes to Current Map
'''This is the section where you add expansion, complaints, or changes for the map in the PMIV Map Game. Please make it easy to understand for the mapmaker the expansion that you committed. This means including the name of your nation, and maybe an OTL location, and sometimes a reference map. Note, color requests will not be granted, as we already follow a color scheme.'''

Requested Changes/Errors for Next Version
99%, if not all of the Maghrebi colony (Emirate of Oyo) should be ceded to Benin as agreed upon by all three parties: Bozi (Maghreb), Me (Benin), and Nathan (The Caliphate, the Maghreb's liege).

 Consul Ioshua  Vae victis!   00:11, April 22, 2017 (UTC)

Treaty of Vasiligrad <---

Sticking in a map of updated Anangu in case anyone wants to pick it up. I didn't have anything to go by as "expected" borders but I tried to have more dense states near less arid climates Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  17:50, April 8, 2017 (UTC)

Forgot to add a map when the Turkman Sultanate became indepedent -Nate



As per the peace terms with Scandinavia, Holstein, Schleswig, and Oldenburg should be colored Prussias color. I am that guy (talk) 07:42, February 26, 2017 (UTC)

Saxony has now a player and isn't coloured in, I don't care about the colour you guys pick Teutonician (talk) 08:57, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

' ABSOLUTELY NO ANTI-ALIASING. THIS CREATES GRAINY UNEDITABLE SHIT MAPS. IF YOUR MAP IS USING ANTI-ALIASING YOUR CHANGES WILL NOT BE REFLECTED. '

18:53, March 24, 2017 (UTC)

Ancona/Marche and most of Emilia-Romagna (specifically Ferrara, Forlì-Cesena, Ravenna and Rimini.), basicly the Adriatic coast of the Papal States is now Venetian after our agreement.  Ungern Von Sternberg   A Man's GREATEST Joy is Crushing his Enemies   13:02, March 30, 2017 (UTC)

However Bologna is to remain within the Papal States. Callumthered (talk) 06:50, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

Two Sicilies has acquired OTL Saint Croix (ATL Santa Croce), and has settled OTL Tobago (ATL San Gennaro). 05:10, May 3, 2017 (UTC)

Two Sicilies has also acquired Benevento (the little enclave on the peninsula) from the Papal States. ~Rex

Changes Completed/Fixed in Next Version
This section is only for the mapmaker to post which changes were added to the next map, PLEASE DO NOT WRITE YOUR REQUESTS HERE.


 * Russian colonization of Siberia
 * Zayiyr vassalization of Tio
 * Anglo-Burgundian colonial claims
 * Scandinavian Hudson Bay colony and Labrador expansion
 * Iberian colonies in California and expansion in Mexico
 * Decolorized Indochina
 * Polish occupation of Danzig and East Prussia
 * Bengali Palau Belitung
 * South Australian civilizations

Mod Event Complaint
When complaining, please include the year of the event that you are complaining about.

Anangu Kingdom - 1569

 * I'm assuming this has been happening for a while, but I just noticed it in 1569 and the map complaints page. What is this bs with the Anangu Kingdom? A civilization of this size could not, and should not, exist in Australia in the given time period. It especially should not be developing at the rate that the mods are claiming. Cour *talk* 02:53, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, plus the population growth rates are grossly exaggerated. It is unlikely for a state to go from a few dozen thousand to approaching two million within a century, and certainly impossible if it is in the pre-industrial age.
 * I don't want to start an argument as I am not wedded to the Anangu Kingdom, but I will give some explanation. The original tribe I started playing as, the Ngarrindjeri, started in 1440 with a population of 6,000.  The total population of southern Australia, including all tribes (that I estimated), was about 300,000. After the Ngarrindjeri developed agiculture, that knowledge spread across the rest of Southern Australia to all the tribes. Thus, all of Southern Australia's population began to increase exponentially from the food production, eventually devleoping cities and city-states. The Ngarrinjderi themselves, which was only one city-state among many, rose in population from about 6,000 in 1440 to now roughly 200,000 in 1570. The total population of Southern Australia, from all the tribes rose from about 300,000 in 1440 to now 1.8 million in 1570. As for its size, there is a reason I didn't post a map until this point. The South Australian Civilization was only a collection of dis-united city-states until around 1560. Rather than one nation conuqering that  whole area, which would have been impossible, the Anangu Kingdom formed as a result of multiple unions and conquests internally that unified the city-states together, just like any other civilization in history. As a single, organized state, the Anangu Kingdom first appeared in 1560, before conuqering other more tribal areas nearby (and I don't expect it to last very long before fracturing). Also, the fact that the South Australian Civilization is only bronze-age technology helps its unification. If the city-states were very well developed like China or Italy, it would have been much harder for them to conquer or unify with each other. Now, I will admit that I compressed the usual timeline of civlization growth for the sake of creating something interesting for the game, so again I'm not completely wedded to it if anyone else doesn't really like the idea. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  13:17, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

Bengal events 1604-1605
Bengal doesnt have 300,000 troops. There are 10% Muslims in Aryavarta and that is 10 million so they have an army of 100,000. I had 50,000 troops there already and I should also be give a chance to put up my troop numbers. I swear Scraw had approved me having a 1 mil army. So I retain West Bengal and East Bengal is independent not its vassals. Also since there are 10 mil Muslims they create their own army and Hindus are not loyal to them. There are 100,000 Burmese troops and I will use them in the algo. Secondly I have clearly stated that there are 1300 ships in the Bay of Bengal so no Rashidun troops reach Bengal. You have adjusted my algo to 800,000 troops. Now there are another 200,000 and 100,000 Burmese. So due to me having only 1 million. There is no invasion of South Bahmani. As a result there are even more troops in Bengal.

There is no way there will be more than 10% Muslims in Aryavarta also Bengal has 10 million that is all the Muslims. No Hindus support the rebellion and they definitely do not join their army. Muslims ruled solidly for at least 400 years in India under the Mughals and still they were just 25% in 1947.

I had clearly stated that my navy is in the Bay of Bengal and I swear that Scraw approved me having a 1 mil army. Also I have changed the algo. Nate and Warrior adjusted my algo to 800,000 but I have 200,000 more.

As I am not absolutely non feudal that is why Scraw has allowed me to use the 0.01 of my population.

Dev271 (talk) 07:14, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

Various miscellaneous complaints (mostly Rajput) - 1623
^^ SALTY AF

We didn't mean that all the military revolted, just the Rajput loyal to the nobles of Maratha. All that would cause is decreasing your mlitary by 60%.
 * Where a nation like Swahili (3 million = 280 ships) can send 800 ships. Where special nations are exempt from questions on their population. From the wikipedia, the Ottomans (1600) had a population of 26 million but today the country that mirrors it is at 50 million and still the mirroring country is smaller than OTL Ottomans(Anatolia, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Moldavia, Bosnia,Wallachia).
 * Again from Wikipedia - When OTL Persia under the Safavid dynasty under its greatest extent under Shah Abbas 1 (1588-1629) had a population of 3.2 million, but the country that mirrors it which is smaller boasts of a population of 15 million. According to Ottoman pop. in 1600 the smaller country should have 10-15 million.
 * These two mirroring countries deploy forces larger than they can. Where the countries who dont have a reason for naval growth can take up Malay islands. But another country in the South of India is told that it is too far from Java to care about it. (Drake and France). This is implausible af.
 * Aryavarta has had 5 Rajput kings out of 7. These were kings of the Rajput nations themselves. They integrated them during their reign. Rajputs are adequately represented in the council I dont even touch Maratha territory. Marathi is not even spoken in my nation.
 * My army is not composed of the Rajputs. This was senseless considering the amount of Rajputs my council has and that they have a different province - Rajputana and the Rajputs are its governors.
 * Persia- At max 3 million. Not 15 million. Warrior says it is 15 million.
 * I accept that India had a pop. of 100 mil. (Moreland's estimate is highly debated though). But the North would have 60 million because of density differences. Also I promise to the mod council I will not expand more (except Ahom). Let me have my nation as it is now and I will lay low. I promise.
 * I do agree - DrDrake
 * Actually Dev, I cannot find the ridiculous 3 million pop claim. I searched for it. And, feud says my nation is at 11 mil, nate says it is at 15 mil, when rimp ruled it and it had a lot of territory it was at 35 mil. 3 mil is ridiculous, sources can be very shaky. The population of Iran has not been that low since the Mongol Conquests. ~Warrior
 * Iran proper has a population of four million or so. However, Iran in-game also has parts of Pakistan.
 * The part of Pakistan that Iran has is not the fertile areas. It is Balochistan and the Tribal area not having more than 500,000 people.
 * He's literally holding the entirety of the Indus River valley. If that's not "fertile", I don't know what is.
 * Yes, you are correct, Iran proper has about 4 million however, due to the indus river, I have an additional 10 mil or so. ~ Warrior

I believe in OTL the middle east, Zanzibar and Persia did have lower populations than ATL, and this is primarily due to the 50 million poeple of the Timurid Empire not collapsing in war and famine as OTL. The Caliphate's population in the middle east was reduced to 30 million in the early 16 century and has been growing at the same rate as OTL, just with a higher principle. It is also compensated by the fact Swahili adapted more advanced agricultural methods than OTL relative to their area, so their population increased as a result. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:29, March 11, 2017 (UTC)

Also, I have indus river, another 10 mil people. So Iran has more people than OTL, plus the 10 mil in the indus river. So even more than 15 mil dev. ~Warrior

Asside from those two issues, there really isn't anything implausible about the revolt as posted. The Maratha, as you know, broke off at the same time OTL, and was about the same scale and structure.

Now, if you promise, as you say, to leave Bengal as it was before and expand nowhere except Assam as you said, then we would cause the revolt to resovle itself. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  19:38, March 11, 2017 (UTC)

So it appears dev is right about the Indus. However, the confirmed population of Gurkani following the treaty of Batman was 19 million after its signing. I also have sindh now, and qatar. The reason it is so much higher than OTL is as nathan said, " 50 million poeple of the Timurid Empire not collapsing in war and famine as OTL." So my population is somewhere around 20 mil. enough said.

user talk: Warrioroffreedom123 08:40, March 12, 2017 (UTC)Warrioroffreedom123

Sakhan Events 1644-5
I'm not going to strenuously oppose this, but I'm just a little unsure how there is suddenly a large number of firebrand Orthodox in Sakha after approximately one year of Russian Orthodox proseletysing, when the local (Nestorian) Sakhan Church of the East has been solidly established for ages and ages, and has had the support of the Papacy (through the Korean/Japanese Missions) for over eighty years. Maybe I missed how long the Russians were sending missionaries but like, I'm not seeing it. Callumthered (talk) 07:18, April 6, 2017 (UTC)

^^^ Agreed.

Distance and geography. Russia borders Sakha and is thus able to directly influence them, while Papal missionaries have to circumnavigate Africa, India, Indochina, and East Asia to reach Sakha (it's a bit out of your range). General534 (talk) 04:15, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

Except that there have been strong Catholic bases in Korea and Japan for over a century...Callumthered (talk) 05:51, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

Maghrib Naval Invasion of Benine

 * ===Pre War Stage===
 * Mahrib: + 34.5
 * Population: + 4 million (16)
 * Government: +5
 * Economy: + 3.5
 * Technology: + 10
 * Bernie :P: 23
 * Population: + 2 million (8)
 * Government: +5 (council?)
 * Economy: +3
 * Technology: +7
 * Naval Insion of Benie
 * Maghrib: +41.
 * Army Size: 12 (40,000)
 * Navy Size: 10.3 (100 ships)
 * Location:Near a city: +3.5
 * Great Leader: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Benine: 5.22
 * Army Size:  2.22 (7,405)
 * Navy Size: 0
 * Location: Near a city: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Result
 * Maghrib: 75.5
 * Benine Score: 28.5
 * Battle Tier: Tier 1
 * Casualties:
 * ===2nd MAGRIB SEA INASION===
 * ===Pre War Stage===
 * Mahrib: + 34.5
 * Population: + 4 million (16)
 * Government: +5
 * Economy: + 3.5
 * Technology: + 10
 * Bernie :P: 23
 * Population: + 2 million (8)
 * Government: +5 (council?)
 * Economy: +3
 * Technology: +7
 * Naval Insion of Benie
 * Maghrib: +41.
 * Army Size: 12 (40,000)
 * Navy Size: 10.3 (100 ships)
 * Location:Near a city: +3.5
 * Great Leader: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Benine: 5.22
 * Army Size:  2.22 (7,405)
 * Navy Size: 0
 * Location: Near a city: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Result
 * Maghrib:75.5
 * Benine Score: 28.5
 * Battle Tier: Tier 3:
 * Casualties:

Maghreb invasion of Haratin Tribes

 * ===Pre War Stage===
 * Mahrib: + 34.5
 * Population: + 4 million (16)
 * Government: +5
 * Economy: + 3.5
 * Technology: + 10
 * Haratin: 9.2
 * Population: + 50,000 (0.2)
 * Government: +Tribal (5)
 * Economy: + 2
 * Technology: + 2
 * Invasion of Haratin Tribes
 * Maghrib: +13.5
 * Army Size: 10 (10,000)
 * Location:Near a city: +3.5
 * Great Leader: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Benine: 5.22
 * Army Size:  2.5 (5,000)
 * Navy Size: 0
 * Location: Near a city: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Result
 * Maghrib: 48
 * Benine Score: 14.42
 * Battle Tier: Tier 3

Discussion
As I said, there is no such thing as a Haratin tribe. General534 (talk) 20:35, March 29, 2017 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin

~Warrior

Maghreb invasion of DaharaEdit

 * ===Pre War Stage===
 * Mahrib: + 34.5
 * Population: + 5 million (17)
 * Government: +5
 * Economy: + 3.5
 * Technology: + 10
 * Dahara: 9.2
 * Population: + 50,000 (0.2)
 * Government: +Tribal (5)
 * Economy: + 2
 * Technology: + 2
 * Invasion
 * Maghrib: +13.5
 * Army Size: 10 (10,000)
 * Location:Near a city: +3.5
 * Great Leader: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Dahara: 5.22
 * Army Size:  2.5 (5,000)
 * Navy Size: 0
 * Location: Near a city: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Attrition: +0
 * Blunder:
 * Result
 * Maghrib: 48
 * Dahara Score: 14.42
 * Battle Tier: Tier 3

Prewar Stage

 * Belka: total score: 113.4
 * ​Population: no penalties = 46.4 (11.6 million)
 * Government: +7 (Absolute Monarchy)
 * Economy: +30 (econ tier 5)
 * Technology: +30 (tech tier 5)
 * ​Croatia: total score 29.8
 * ​Population: no penalties = 4.8 (1.2 million)
 * Government: +5 (theocracy?)
 * Economy: +10 (econ tier 3)
 * Technology: +10 (tech tier 3)

Battle Stage

 * Battle of Zagreb (1664)
 * Belka: total score * penalties = total score
 * ​Army size: 40,000 troops = 12.4 +4.8 (professional)
 * Navy size: N/A
 * Location: -4.5 (location name)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: TBD
 * Croatia: total score * penalties = total score
 * ​Army size: 24,000 = 7.2
 * Navy size: N/A
 * Location: +6 (location name)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: TBD

Final Stage

 * Belka: 126.1
 * Croatia: 43
 * Final Result: 293%

Belka offers reparations to families of the war dead and reparations for damages to croatian land if they surrender now and become an imperial province

Prewar Stage

 * Belka: total score: 113.4
 * ​Population: no penalties = 46.4 (11.6 million)
 * Government: +7 (Absolute Monarchy)
 * Economy: +30 (econ tier 5)
 * Technology: +30 (tech tier 5)
 * ​Croatia: total score 29.8
 * ​Population: no penalties = 4.8 (1.2 million)
 * Government: +5 (theocracy?)
 * Economy: +10 (econ tier 3)
 * Technology: +10 (tech tier 3)

Battle Stage

 * Battle of Zadar (1665)
 * Belka: total score * penalties = total score
 * ​Army size: 40,000 troops = 12.4 +4.8 (professional)
 * Navy size: N/A
 * Location: -4.5 (location name)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: TBD
 * Croatia: total score * penalties = total score
 * ​Army size: 24,000 = 7.2
 * Navy size: N/A
 * Location: +6 (location name)
 * Great leader: N/A
 * Blunder: TBD

Final Stage

 * Belka: 126.1
 * Croatia: 43
 * Final Result: 293% +293% = 586%

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

African Sultanate of Maghrib | Navy | 1605 | 1635 | -

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.

Colonization and Contact Confirmation
In order for you to colonize or explore another region of the world, you must be confirmed through this process. Message me with any questions or concerns. Add more rows as needed.
 * 1) You must follow all rules laid out in the rules page.
 * 2)  You must show two things to colonize: Capability and Motivation. If you lack one, you can not colonize
 * 3)  Your reasons must be confirmed by 3 mods. Even if you have waited 15 turns for an answer, it does not matter. Pester a mod into giving you a yes or no.
 * 4) Mods can say no. If one of them says no don't try and pretend they ignored it.
 * 5) You can only seek to confirm the nation you play as and nothing more.
 * 6) When seeking confirmation, you want to include the date you would begin colonizing. If you want to do it right away, put the turn of your request.
 * 7) If a mod finds this date to be too early or too late even, they should inform the player as such. Not every nation colonized at once so if you decide to try in jump in right away, even if you have the means and the motive to do so, you may be rejected because of the date.

'''IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY VOTES, IT MEANS YOU CANNOT COLONIZE OR EXPLORE. DO NOT TAKE SILENCE AS APPROVAL.'''

Access for Landlocked polities
Requiring 2/3 approval of mods, which currently means 4 mods.

Augsburg
Mods only
 * Yes
 * No
 * I know you would be able to make tiny ports like OTL Malta or something, but that gets so minor it might as well not even be mentioned Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  00:58, November 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 22:45, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Deadly State of Mind (talk) 14:15, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Abstain

Tier Upgrade
When requesting an upgrade, use the following format:

*Nation (player) **Current tier and tier you would like to be upgraded to **Provide reasoning **Mod response here

Economic Tier Upgrade

 * The Caliphate
 * Tier 4, trying for Tier 5
 * Tier 4 was the tier for the Caliphate back before the Persian War. Since then, The Caliphate has dominated the Silk Road trade by land, via the Compact of Beyrut, and by sea, via the Arab-Indian Company. Not to mention the exclusive trade deals with Bulgaria and the creation of the Bank of Cairo
 * Mod response: Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Norway -- Dream_Helix_Fossil_Sprite.png Praise Helix Welcome my children Tumblr_n1i7boISUv1rvlenbo1_500.gif
 * Tier 3 trying for 4
 * Norway has inherited and now owns sweden a tier 4 economy since we have it is only natural that we now become a tier 4 economy.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:49, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier II
 * Because of substantial trade with East Asia, mining activity, development of settled agriculture due to reforms. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy and more modern technology, plus greater political organization and technology than most tribes, that facilitate economic development.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod


 * Malaya (Sidewinder)
 * Upgrade from unknown to Tier II
 * Trade hotspot in Straits of Malacca, as well as upgrades in trading ports.
 * Mod response: Approved -Nate


 * Korea
 * Tier 4, trying for Tier 5
 * Korea is now China. Self-explanatory.
 * Mod Response: Approved -Nate
 * Kingdom of England and Ireland
 * Tier 3 and I would like to be tier 4
 * Well I now control Ireland, I have been doing trade with Asia, Africa and Arcadia. I got money from the loss of Avalon. I built a load of canals, my population grew. I am pursuring merchantile policies. Similiar and no longer existing European nations are listed as Tier IV and Tier V
 * Mod response: Approved -Nate
 * Tondo
 * Tier 2 and would like tier 4
 * Trade hotspot between the west and the orient. Tributary status under China provides much wealth for the nation. Tondo is also a major trading partner for multiple European nations. Tondo also has settlements in Borneo, a very resource rich area.
 * Mod response:
 * The Punjab Confederacy
 * Unknown- Should be Tier 3-(Tier4 in near future)
 * The Confederacy of Punjab has benefitted immensely from the English trade enclave in Bilaspur as well as trade agreements with several nations, such as England, Burgundy, Venice, Aryavarta (?) and Bengal. Two major ports have been built or expanded recently increasing international trade, while state roads are beginning to be developed. A merchant fleet is being built, while piracy has helped reduce nearby competitors, though trade allies (England, Burgundy) are unscathed due to deals with the pirates. Cotton plantations are being built, while infrastructure has also been build
 * Tier 3 Approved
 * Bengal Sultanate Adolf Coffee (talk) 23:09, May 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Tier 3 trying for Tier 4
 * The nation itself has expanded on setting up trade routes to make trade easier. Educational facilities have been made. Trade in the Med. and the Indian Ocean has expanded with a production of a variety of wanted crops. Influence and tech have helped the nation grow as a whole from other nations such as France and England. Many jobs have been made for people and production of currency has spread to become a more common use in the nation itself. Newspapers are commonly used in the nation to deliver local news and etc. which had become a booming industry. Coastal Towns and cities have become hotspots for business. Weaponry is also made based on French and English weapons. Shipyards have also expanded to create more ships to be used in trade. Silk is commonly traded with nations who make and participate in trade deals in our nation as well. Also, city upgrades have grown more common making the construction business more common and creates more money for the nation. Mines have fueled the development of high-priced jewelry as well. It only seems reasonable that as much as my nation has grown, it remains in Tier 3 but I hope by looking back at what my nation has done in the past decades, it is easy to say withought a doubt my nation deserves Tier 4.
 * Mod Response: approved -Nate

Tech Tier Upgrade
Mod response – Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC) Knights Hospitaller Unknown to Tier III (or Tier II if mod decides) The Knights have been weakened but we still have retained modern technology and have been taking in skilled immigrants building small universities and schools. We have also been building up infrastructure
 * Delhi Raj (Dev271 (talk) 10:27, December 31, 2016 (UTC))
 * Unknown (Delhi is not listed). Delhi should be Tier IV.
 * Because of the use of gunpowder, artillery, firearms, communication and postal system from sultanate times, not a feudal nation.
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:47, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier 2
 * Because of substantial contact with East Asian nations which has resulted in adoption of modern technology to some degree, incentivized by mining and immigration to profit from it. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy since before they migrated to Siberia (http://www.geocurrents.info/place/russia-ukraine-and-caucasus/siberia/the-yakut-sakha-migration-to-central-siberia).
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Korea
 * Tier III to Tier IV
 * Korea has independently discovered gunpowder during the late 14th century, and during the same period Korea was one of the first countries to mass-implement the usage of naval artillery. In the 15th century, Korea had the first armoured ship (the "turtleship", though this is the slightly different older model mentioned in the Annals of Joseon), measured meteorology (creating the first Korean rain gauge) for agricultural purposes, and made various astronomical clocks to measure astrology. Not to mention, Korea also uses advanced firearms (such at the matchlock whose blueprints were obtained from Gurkani merchants), and locally-produced gunpowder weapons; all with the access to China, the most advanced national technologically in-game.
 * Mod response – Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Knights Hospitaller
 * Unknown to Tier III (or Tier II if mod decides)
 * The Knights have been weakened but we still have retained modern technology and have been taking in skilled immigrants building small universities and schools. We have also been building up infrastructure while we are also reorganising our military. We are non-feudal and try to encourag innovation. We are at least a tech level above the natives and higher native civilisations and are probably Tier III. If Tier III is deemed too high please place the tech at least at Tier II.
 * Tier II approved -Nate
 * Malaya (Sidewinder)
 * Unknown to Tier II (Or which every Tier the mod decides on)
 * Malaya has implemented Chinese and Aryavarta technologies into its navy, and has state capitals that are quite developed. Firearm technology has been encountered and replicated, from China or Gurkani. Trade from Europe also brings technological progress to some extent.
 * Tier II approved -Nate
 * Japan (KawaiiKame)
 * Unknown to Tier IV
 * Japan has implmented Burgundian naval designs, recieved the idea of heliocentrism from Korea in Busan and the Papal States in Nagasaki, and has recieved technological advancements from Burgundy, Korea, Iberia, and the Papal States.
 * Mod response:
 * Korea
 * Tier 4 to Tier 5
 * Korea is now China. Self-explanatory.
 * Mod response –Korea has independently discovered gunpowder during the late 14th century, and during the same period Korea was one of the first countries to mass-implement the usage of naval artillery. In the 15th century, Korea had the first armoured ship (the "turtleship", though this is the slightly different older model mentioned in the Annals of Joseon), measured meteorology (creating the first Korean rain gauge) for agricultural purposes, and made various astronomical clocks to measure astrology. Not to mention, Korea also uses advanced firearms (such at the matchlock whose blueprints were obtained from Gurkani merchants), and locally-produced gunpowder weapons; all with the access to China, the most advanced national technologically in-game.
 * Tondo
 * Unknown to Tier 3
 * The influx of Chinese and European trade has bode well for Tondos technological achievements. The navy is very advanced for the standards in its region, implementing some european designs.
 * Mod response
 * The Punjab Confederacy
 * Unknown- Should be tier 3-4 (Mods Call)
 * The Confederacy has expanded technologically with many universities being opened up for research. Also foreign naval designs have been integrated with native designs creating a hybrid design. The main ports are also highly sophisticated taking 12 years of labour to build and integrates modern English technology. Trade has also helped to spread technological ideas. Former part of Aryavarta and so retains a postal system. With the former territories lacking infrastructure for firearm production, and with most of it wrecked by the Rebellion, the Confederacy utilises English aid to create firearms, and artillery and so are up to a modern standard. Naval academy trains officers to a high standard, while the Army is elite and highly trained.
 * Tier 3 Approved
 * Athabaskan confederation
 * tier one to be tier two
 * I on my own discovered agreculture and Metal working also i created a form of writing wich is a combination between hirglyps and a alphabet.also I founded the Religion of chipmunkism and because of it i got my first official laws i also got 4 villages one with a population of 7 500
 * Approved -Nate

Discussion
=Information and Resources=

Current Map
1654

Algo
For the algo please see the Rules and Algorithm page for everything you need.

Rules and Algo page

=General Discussion=

Leaves of Absence
I will not be online because of internet problems as I am attending a wedding. I will be back online by 4 February. --Dev271 (talk) 16:55, January 28, 2017 (UTC)

Quitting/Resigning as Mapmaker
Due to the fact that the moderator team is at best inconsistant, and the fact that as of late they have started using there mod events to alter the actual internal affairs more than they should have, I resign as China and herby give up my mapmaking duties.

Also due to the fact this was the only part of wiki I was active on, I also feel it is prudent to leave the wiki once and for all.

-Nova 19:21, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Nova: *is barred from colonizing a bunch of useless islands* *quits*

I am that guy (talk) 19:38, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * IATG, please refrain from being rude. Thank you. 23:02, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Now that the mapmaker left, who will make the new maps?

MagnusWiki (talk) 17:34, December 23, 2016 (UTC)

It was handled very poorly in my opinion. General534 (talk) 03:46, December 25, 2016 (UTC)

Point still stands, we need a new mapmaker. It's been 10 turns since we've had a recent map. Cour *talk* 19:44, January 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ambiguity of the Rules
Hello,

Since the War of Austrian Succession, Feud and I have noticed a lot of things have been understood by feud when he made the original algorithm which, by one way or another, didn't make it into the final version on the Rules and Algo page. I have mentioned a few under the Polish War discussion section; however, both he and I have noticed many others since that proves the rules page is not the way Feud originally intended.

One obvious solution would be for Feud to go through and re-write the whole rules page to match his original intention. However, until that is complete (as it could take a long time), I suggest that we stick to the way the rules are laid out on the page now, considering that's the way the rules are currently set up to do. Why do I suggest this? Well, as long as the algo is only fully understood by one person (Feudalplague), then we essentially are playing with blank dice: only one person knows how who wins or loses. It's only a temporary solution, of course, unitl the algo and rules page is sufficently revised.

I have suggested this to the other mods in chat already, and both Scraw and Edge have concurred with my temporary solution Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  04:25, January 24, 2017 (UTC)

Hospitaller ninja assassin inquisitors
Due to the rise of the nobility in our colonies, it seems sensible to set up an organisation to deal with corruption. I am planning on an organisation which is like an anti corruption independent commission, but with a license to kill. They shall consist of a fanatical group of elite warriors. Eventually I am planning on this becoming a spy or warrior society. Which parts seem sensible? RedDragon2000 (talk) 08:56, February 10, 2017 (UTC)

Establishing a local Inquisition under the authority of your local clergy or highest-ranked Knight is sensible. Callumthered (talk) 22:43, February 12, 2017 (UTC)

Going Away For The Weekend
I will not be around for the weekend so who ever can do my posts for Siam I will be happy. - Scarlet Outlaw

The Indian Ocean slave trade
Can we talk about how the Rashidun Caliphate (major participant in the Arab slave trade), the Deccan Sultanate (major participant in the Arab slave trade), and the Swahili Coast (literally the last place on Earth to abolish slavery) are all outlawing slavery in the year 1630? I don't see a plausible reason why this would happen, nor a way for it to be enforced without rustling a lot of jimmies.

As Oman, I find it worrying that the greatest supplier of slaves in the region, Swahili (and also the one to gain the most profit from the slave trade) is outlawing slavery before me, seemingly on a whim.

General534 (talk) 10:55, March 20, 2017 (UTC)

Event suggestions

 * With the defeat of Mali in the war against Benin, several vassals and neighbors seize the opportunity and invade, including the Fula nomads of the north, the former Malian province of Kaabu, the former Malian vassal state of Masina, and the Mossi kingdoms north of the Volta. The largest of these, Great Fulo, begins to eclipse Mali as the regional hegemon.




 * Border friction grows along the Russo-Mongol border as Russian colonists encroach on Buryati and Mongol territory near Lake Baikal. Fed up with Russia's expansionism and anti-Turco-Mongol stance, Mongol tribesmen attack the settlement of Irkutsk, driving settlers from the area. The Great Khan calls for an end to Russian expeditions into Mongolia and proclaims he will extend protection to all neighboring khanates and tribes in Siberia. High profile missionaries are also expelled from the khanate. Skirmishes continue throughout the year.


 * The Sultanate of Gowa (Makassar) conquers the neighboring states of Wajo, Bone and Banggai, uniting all of south-central Sulawesi. In their conquests, they also capture most of the island of Buru, surrounding the Japanese colony on the west end of the island.


 * A new Muslim state forms in northern Sulawesi, centered around the city of Gorontalo.


 * The Lesser Sunda Islands revert to native rule after the Rashidun-aligned emirate is overthrown. A new state, the Sultanate of Sonbai, begins to assert its dominance over West Timor and parts of the declining Wehali kingdom in the center. Several Hindu (Gunturist or otherwise) kingdoms also appear on the island of Bali, firmly rejecting Islam and viewing themselves as the successors to the Majapahit. Due to extreme distances, the exact details of these events are unknown to the Rashidun.

General534 (talk) 21:41, March 26, 2017 (UTC) user talk: Warrioroffreedom123 12:42, May 1, 2017 (UTC)Warrioroffreedom123
 * Desperate for land, realising they cannot defeat a settled enemy, due to the innovation in modern tactics and the fact that steppe tactics are obsolete, The Great Khanate invades the Kingdom of Tibet. While remaining mostly Buddhist, a Nestorian Minority grows in Tibet, especially from the non Buddhist Bon population. This also leads for Nepal to be on the Khanate's doorstep.

Iberia against France
So in 1636 I have someone post an algo claiming in 1634 that Iberia has attacked France. I look back and I do find a turn by Iberia which mentions attacking France but here are my objections.

1. The post was written well after the the previous turn had ended by at least 24 hours. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Principia_Moderni_IV_(Map_Game)?diff=prev&oldid=1432678 how are we supposed to respond to things if people post them in turns before well after the turn has rolled over. The turn rolls over you more or less need to not post in the old turn especially not 24 hours after and when other parties involved have made their own turns.

2. The player who created the algo used some crap here, no mention of Montpellier was made at all. A different city was mentioned, you can't hold something if you don't take it. Then there is the fact that the player who made the algo presumes it his right to just control France's forces and have them attack the Iberian forces without consulting and just assuming it because it benefits the algo.

3. Edge isn't playing as Iberia. He played briefly for a few turns a number of decades ago. This is the first post he has made in a long time and it is a copy and paste turn which is out of date except for a single sentence in which he attacks France even though they are allies. You can't just have a player drop in for one turn launch some invasion then not post again. I understand people have commitments to IRL and I get that but that means you need to make sacrifices in PMIV. You can't just drop in declare war because someone ask you to and then not do anything else.

Person67 (talk) 23:08, March 27, 2017 (UTC)

In case it's not clear, I'm the player Person is referring to (one might say, "I am that guy"). This is my response. 1. I'm not going to defend, and as such I didn't assume the offensive took place in 1634, nor did I say that it did. Maybe Edge misplaced the turn, maybe he thought he was putting it in 1635, idk.

2. Because of Edges lack of specifics in his turn, I had discussed the algo with him, in which I mentioned how it was unfolding and where it was taking place. I mentioned Montpellier by name. As well, it was a turn for France that you posted, Person, after I invoked my alliance with Iberia, where 140,000 troops were stationed in Montlucon to counter a possible Iberian incursion. Am I wrong in assuming that French Army would do the very job it was assigned to carry out?

3. Are you saying Edge shouldn't be allowed to post as the nation he's signed up for?

I am that guy (talk) 00:13, March 28, 2017 (UTC)

To clarify, the turn was misplaced. and I also had an alliance with Burgundy. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL 00:45, March 28, 2017 (UTC)

I posted Oct's turn for him because he was unable to post the turn but it was Oct's turn. You can't have an algo which is different to what the turn says nothing said in chat is official, yes you are wrong in assuming they would do that because Oct knows how the algo would go and so wouldn't do what you want them to do. They were to counter an Iberian inavsion however they chose to. Iberia is also allied to France yes I am saying Edge shouldn't be allowed to make one post which is all copy and pasted except for declaring war on France.which was done in one sentence. He isn't really playing as Iberia. Person67 (talk) 06:47, March 28, 2017 (UTC)

Im inclined to agree. If your going to play as Iberia, commit, not this halfass you have been doing. Anything before 1637 cant be counted due to Edges seeming inability to find the time to actually detail an invasion or anything of the sort. Its absolute horse shit that you can copy paste a whole post and then declare war in a sentence with no other details. Even if the declaration of war is legitimate, you need the details in your turn to consider any algo you do legitimate. We just went through this with Dev and he did some of the same thing.

If you are going to press the issue of detail, lets compare declarations of wars. From England: Lets take this back to grade school and analyse this passage for a second. All this post really says is that war is declared and cities are reinforced. If you are going to press the Issue of detail, than England's declaration of war is also null and void because they also provide the same amount of details that I do in my initial deceleration of war. So if you are going to demand that my deceleration is discounted, the same must be done of Englands. All of the detail of their war plan comes from the French deceleration, but even then the details are scarce. All this turn says is the amount of troops being sent to invade, that war is declared, and the marching path of the troops. It then specifies which city is attacked depending on what circumstances. While this is more detail than my post yes, its not a significant amount of extra detail that the point is lost on what is happening. If anything, there is no extra detail. Lets take a hypothetical and say Oct didn't order that they pick the city based on where the defenders are and he just deceived to attack Abbeville regardless of defender amount. Literally the only extra details is that Oct leaves his war plan open to attacking a different city. To compare: Lets break this down piece by piece to show you how similar they are. First the Deceleration. Top will be mine, bottom will be Oct's: Now the troop count: Now the marching path: So when you remove the conditional in his war plan, there is clearly no extra detail in either Oct's or Persons deceleration. Lets take it a step further and look at Person's declaration, because there is no details of what he is doing in the war. All his deceleration says is that he is defending. So if there needs to be details in my turn to consider the algo legitimate, than the first turn of this war is completely illegitimate under your own standard. So at that point, none of this war is legitimate because there was no details in the aglo of the first turn. That is of course you rule my turn to be illegitimate on the grounds that it lacks detail, because clearly there it no additional detail in Octs turn over mine, and there is even less detail in Person's turn.
 * Under the presumption France is with us we declare war on Burgundy once our intentions are obvious. We hold 10,000 men at Portsmouth and 15,000 men at London. Meanwhile in Briton Isles we brace ourselves for another war with the Germanic empire and the people are told of the great quest for British survival. The colony in Arcadia is told to brace for war.
 * A french army of 360,000 men supported by an english army of 40,000 men cross into Burgundy. We declare war on Burgundy. This forces advances to the Somme at Hangest Sur- Somme and then chooses to either attack south or north on Ameins or Abbeville depending on where Burgundy stations less troops. If both cities have the same amount we attack Abbeville.
 * A french army of 360,000 men supported by an english army of 40,000 men cross into Burgundy. We declare war on Burgundy. This forces advances to the Somme at Hangest Sur- Somme and attacks Abbeville.
 * War is declared upon France, and an army of 150,000 is ordered across the border from Barcelona to Perpignam, circumventing the Pyreenes.
 * War is declared upon France,...
 * We declare war on Burgundy.
 * and an army of 150,000...
 * A french army of 360,000 men supported by an english army of 40,000 men cross into Burgundy
 * is ordered across the border from Barcelona to Perpignam, circumventing the Pyreenes.
 * This forces advances to the Somme at Hangest Sur- Somme and attacks Abbeville

So if you are going to bitch about how I don't have enough details then I would think you would do your job as an unbiased mod and rule Oct and Person's deceleration as invalid as well. Your inability to find the time to formulate a valid argument that doesn't contradict itself is a far bigger concern than my inability to find the time to write a new turn. At least when Viva gave an argument that bad, he had the sense to make it so long the average person wouldn't read it. You instead just cuss and act angry and throw your mod status around, instead of giving a thought out argument that doesn't contradict everything else about this war. And given our interactions in the past couple weeks, I doubt you have more of an argument to support your point than that, because every time we get into an argument on chat, all you are capable of saying is "Shut the fuck up" in a variety of different ways. Now I'm not saying you are dumb, or that you are a bad person, or that you didn't design a great algo, you just suck as a mod. You're inability to formulate a good argument to support your rulings is the exact reason why people didn't want you as mod during the start of the game. You're either going to shift the goalposts of your argument or you are just going to ignore my argument. Yes, I sound like Viva. No, I do not care. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL 17:07, March 28, 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe ill just retcon the whole thing and have it all redone and make all of you explain in further detail what the fuck is going on. The fact of the matter here is now that its at my attention everyone needs to be dealing with more detail. The fact your directly targeting me is proof im right. You are being lazy, and then i get complaints cause you are lazy. Then i find out everyone has been lazy and there is no actual details which means im stuck with two options. Iberia gets to attack, or i retcon the whole war at this point and make you all do it the right way. As it stands id rather just let iberia attack and call it a day cause redoing the whole war is a pain in the ass. But at the slightest hint of a lack of details, i will fuck all of you up. No bias, no sides, just pure unadulterated terror that happens cause you all want to be lazy with posts.

New Map Of Siam
After beating Cambodia in a war this is how the map should look like i outlined the map. - Scar



Sitting out
Well, after not posting many turns and being inactive I might decide to sit out in PMIV. After playing for about 30 days I might call it a stop for me. So far I might return sometime but it's not the end for me. I'm currently busy however. :| Great showing. B23 (talk) 11:09, April 9, 2017 (UTC)

​Quitting
I am leaving the game for an undisclosed period of time in order to focus on study, as well as perhaps starting on several timelines. RedDragon2000 (talk) 06:14, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

Help with posting
Hi, I'm new to this, but I don't think I can edit yet because I'm not autoconfirmed. I was wondering if someone could post the following turn for Baden on my behalf? SchismaticHeretic65 (talk) 15:03, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

"In Baden, mounting discontent at the oppressively harsh taxation of Margrave George Frederick is brought to a head by several bad harvests, which drive increasing numbers of peasants into debt or starvation. Many complain to their priests or to the Abbey of St Peter Im Schwarzwald, but are generally told to remain obedient to their rulers - and increasing anger grows at priests as well as local Abbeys are particularly greedy in taking advantage of indebted peasantry to expand its properties. Waldensians, who have moved north from Italy and been living in isolated communities in the Black Forest for decades, take advantage of this discontent to preach against the church and temporal establishment; this finally explodes into real anger after men hired by the Abbey of St Peter beat to death a peasant who refuses to leave his land, which he lost to the Abbey through debt. In response, a local mob attacks, and accidentally burns down, the Abbey. Terrified and realizing that they will face vicious reprisals, the peasants decide they have no option but to revolt for real, and enthusiasm develops under radical Waldensian preacher Ulrich Jenatsch, who leads 3500 peasants against George Frederick’s capital of Baden-Baden, capturing him, while mob violence begins to seize church and margraviate lands across Baden. George Frederick, no fool, agrees to the peasants’ demands, renouncing 3-quarters of his own land and agreeing to abolish church ownership of land within Baden entirely, abolish tithes, and agree to accept the oversight of a Diet of peasant leaders, led by Jenatsch, whose first action is to send an envoy northward to Scandinavia to inquire about getting priestly aid in helping him formulate a strong theological foundation for a new Church. Jenatsch, having paid attention to recent international events, instructs his envoy to note that Scandinavia would be justified in responding to the Papacy’s interference in its internal affairs with interference in Catholic lands. He seizes the Lictenthal Convent in Baden-Baden, expelling the nuns and allowing the local population to plunder it, and renames it the Freiekirche or “Free Church”."

Rejoining approving
Hello moderators. I would like to rejoin principia. The problem is, I have used my free switch up. So I would like to do what I did last time. Get three mods to approve me back into the game.

user talk: Warrioroffreedom123 21:03, April 30, 2017 (UTC)Warrioroffreedom123

Joining
Hi Mods- would it be possible to join as the pirate state under the Dread Pirate Roberts, referenced in this most recent turn? In hopeful anticipation of the success of this request, could I also ask for a few clarifications? The turn states that two treasure fleets were successfully raided. From this I assume that the pirates have sufficient equipment and numbers to overcome a well guarded and large fleet (twice); from what I could work out, one of the three Spanish treasure fleets complete with escorts, slavers and supply ships OTL numbered between 30 and 90 ships and was worth a veritable fortune. A single one of the prized treasure galleons could be worth up to $2 billion in today's money. How big are we to assume these fleets in particular were? The largest fleets came during times of war when Spain needed all the funding it could get, but even in normal times the fleets carried 6 months worth of treasures. On top of this, these fleets carry the treasures of all of Iberia rather than just Spain, making them larger than OTL. Secondly, is this Pirate Republic sponsored, at least in part, by the English? I draw this conclusion since the attacked fleets were Iberian and French, and the majority of pirates in the Caribbean were part state-sponsored privateers. Yours, - His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Romanus (talk) 13:30, May 1, 2017 (UTC) UPDATE: sorted w Feud