Talk:1983: Doomsday

Archive 1

Need help.
Hi I’m trying to write an article on how Siberia and the Russian Far East survived (although all of its cities destroyed) and became its own country but I need someone to help uploading the flag of Siberia onto this Wiki for me. Every time I try to do it it doesn’t let me. The flag can be found here. Thanks if anyone helps me.--ShutUpNavi 15:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I like that idea! It will be nice to see how things play out in the country that, truthfully, started the whole ATL.  Are you sure, though, that they would choose a flag that was only used for a year in 1918?  Would anybody even remember it?  On the other hand, it is easy to make and has some obvious Siberian symbolism (green forests, white snow).  I can upload the image, but can you share your basic plan for Siberia? Benkarnell 15:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a quick preview of the article right here. I’ll add more to it later. In the mean time feel free to add on to it if you wish. Thanks for the picture by the way.

Oh and although the flag is not totally widespread, it is still used as a symbol of Siberia to this day. --ShutUpNavi 16:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * OK. I like the idea so far.  My one suggestion for a flag would be to add some sort of Communist symbol (a hammer and sickle, etc.) since they are still a Socialist republic.  Benkarnell 16:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

O.K then. How about we put a big red star in the middle of the flag inbetween the green and white?--ShutUpNavi 17:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Or it could be like the flags of Hungary and Bulgaria during the Soviet era: a fairly ordinary flag with the Communist coat of arms.
 * Another question that I have is on the internal effects of the bombs. Exactly what was bombed and what was spared?  I think we can assume that the major industrial centers of Siberia were wiped out; so it would make sense for the main remaining city to be an unimportant port.  But even if the new republic was declared already in 1984, I'd think it would take a _long_ time and a lot of work for it to actually control anything.  Besides the collapse of the infrastructure and the EMP's effects on electronics, there would be radiation poisoning and conflict with survivors who leave the radiation zones seeking food and resources.  At the beginning, could the Republic have consisted of only a small area around Sovetskaya Gavan, which gradually linked up with other surrounding cities?  Benkarnell 16:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I was going to write about the after effects of doomsday on Siberia and how all the leaders tried to rebuild the country through all the fallout and climate change, with disastrous results (think the soviet response to the Chernobyl disaster, only on a much bigger scale). Now that I think of it though 1984 is a bit early for Siberia to start to be its own country, thanks to points you brought up. Might have to change that.--ShutUpNavi 01:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, some leaders could certainly have declared the new nation in 1984. Declaring something, after all, doesn't take much work.  But the process of making the nation a reality could take years or even decades.  Benkarnell 04:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I just got back and noticed you changed the flag for me. Thanks a lot. It looks far more communist now while keeping a Siberian flavor to it.--ShutUpNavi 17:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

New Idea.
I have a new idea. I was just thinking of it and since the Middle East was relatively neutral in the cold war the Middle East nations should have survived the nuclear war (although the radioactive fallout might have been bad). I'm thinking about creating pages for these nations, where things turn out very different then OTL thanks to lack of foreign involvement in the wars there (e.g. Iran-Iraq war, Gulf War, Afghan War). I probably won't start on it right away, but would it be O.K if I eventually add this to the timeline?--ShutUpNavi 00:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi ShutUp ! Of course no problem to insert the Middle East ! Another white spot on the world map to be filled!! Just go ahead :) Oh, and dont forget to create your WCRB identity/division etc !! You earned it well with all additions made, thank you for the new ideas to 1983: Doomsday !! --Xi&#39;Reney 04:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Alright Thanks. I’ll get on it as soon as I can.--ShutUpNavi 03:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Canada
It occur to me that a place which is both so large and have such a low density of population as Canada would require lots of largely autonomous regional government. With that, some might feel the urge to go at it alone and one such place I would propose would be the Republic of Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean in the Quebec region of the same name. With both the commercial (Montreal) and political (Quebec city) capitals probably destroyed, the survivors might have moved up north to a region which would not have attracted nukes. the survivors would have been joined by remnant of the local units of the canadian army and of the Militia. They would be opposed by the loyalist quebec government in Kuujjuaq (the largest village in the northern Quebec region of Nunavik).

Other places with self-declared states would be in Alberta (with its vast reserve of petrol) and in some First Nations reserves.

Finaly, with the goverment being up north, it might contain a lot more inuits in the public service.--Marcpasquin 15:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Cyprus
I noticed Cyprus is one of the nations represented on your map, what do you have in store for them? Mr.Xeight 03:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure that whoever added it, it was because Cyprus is an island nation that would not have been bombed. Why?   Want to have a go? :)  Benkarnell 05:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

You know me that well? Mr.Xeight 14:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Cyprus is included as I thought it to be surviving (similar to Sicily). though not having wirked out sth. specific yet, look at the Atlantic Defense Community (1983: Doomsday) to find a short description about the Suez channel zone under ADC, LoN administration. Maybe Cyprus could serve as the gatekeeper to the channel, reconstruction haven, adc outpost/ally against Sicily aggression which i intend to be the mediterranean 'evil' state. That would be my suggestion (along with greek, turkish cooperation, unification) similar to Celtic alliance... BUt feel free to insert whatever you like  :)  Greets XI'Reney (not logged in, sry)

Cyprus (1983:Doomsday)

What would have happened to the rest of Greece and all the Greek (and Turkish controlled Greek) islands? Mr.Xeight 16:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the only way Greece & Turkey could cooperate on Cyprus is if something REALLY bad happened to each of their mother nations. Mr.Xeight 16:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Then again, since Geece and Turkey were both NATO members at the time they would have both been hit by nukes at least once or twice. To make things more complicated there is Northern Cyprus as well which declared its independence from the rest of Cyprus on November 15, 1983.--ShutUpNavi 18:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

No one takes N Cyprus seriously so it's not a country. And wow since it was stolen in 1983, it would have never happened. Mr.Xeight 19:10, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * XiReney was talking about Greek and Turkish Cypriots cooperating, wasn't he? I believe that Greece and Turkey themselves were essentially wiped out by Warsaw Pact missiles.  Individual Greeks and Turks are no doubt wandering around still, but I don't think either country had anything that wuold make them fare better than the rest of Europe.


 * The fact is that North Cyprus was only one month away from declaring independence as of Doomsday. I'm not familiar with the history, but a quick glance at Wikipedia says that this came six years after a Turkish invasion, during which the Greeks and Turks had conducted a lot of frustrating negotiations.  The sudden change in the status quo caused by Doomsday cuold have either (1) brought out the best in the two sides as they realized that they had to depend on one another for survival; or else (2) brought out the worst in both sides as each saw the war as an opportunity to wipe the other out.


 * If a genocidal war did ensue, I'd imagine that the balance of power would belong to the Greeks (in the absense of any Greek or Turkish allies on the mainland). However, the strongest military power at the time may have actually been the two British bases.  Cut off from Britain, the commanders could have taken over the entire island to prevent aforementioned genocidal war.


 * [EDIT] The British bases may have been targets. That changes things, and it may be that Cyprus is too irradiated to be a viable country in this timeline.


 * Just some ideas to be taken or left. Benkarnell

Personally I would like the idea of Greece, Britain, America(there's like 1-2 bases there), & Turkey to finally cooperate in Cyprus and turn out really successful. But how would that happen. Even at the very least I would not want a genocide to happen as Cyprus would not survive. And what about the rest of mainland Greece, Turkey, & the Balkans? Crete might be another good candidate. Mr.Xeight 20:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that most of the nations in the LoN are actually unions. What if all the Greek, Turkish, & maybe even Malta and/or any other Meditteranean islands (or nations) that survived could join together with Cyprus jumpstarting the notion of peace & unity and become the capital of this union. Mr.Xeight 20:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * HEy all, good points in this discussion...Yeah Ben I was talking about a cooperation between those. I also see the risk of fatal hits and/or a genocidal war on the island but all your researched facts and your ideas put together I would believe a) no nukes would hit cyprus and b)all remaining forces/ institutions on the island formally being ALL NATO members' forces -despite all greek-turkish resentments- would likely be fast to cooperate- so a joint 4-Nations - military council or sth alike maintaining public order I would consider to be likewise.


 * c) I would agree to Turkey and Greek being virtually wiped out by Soviet Missiles and/or actions of Warsaw Pact forces out bulgaria, romania or sth so Cyprus would be left on it own.


 * d) I like Mr.Xeight idea of a union in the mediterranean as well... (general remark: weve got a majority being unions (formally) in the whole doomsday but as described in the profiles and following the trends in all survival-posta-a-nucelar-holocaust literature that would be likely to happen.

that mediterranean Islands Union might be formed a few years after DD of course perhaps step by step like this: 1.new Delphic Federation (like the ancient Ahens-lead on) (Greek Aegean Islands, centered on Crete) 2.joined by the Turkish Aegean Islands + East Coast 3.Cyprus joining in 4. maybe the adriatic east cost (former yugoslavia) 5. Malta, Tunisia, Suez Channel Zone

Such a Federation would likely be supported by the ADC/ANZC countries to counter the expansion and aggressive Sicily Republic (which I Intend to be trying to conquer Italy, Austria, the Alps etc.) and deliver a real frontline around the Italian Peninsula and a new war potential.

That's my thought about that in the moment.. open for any suggestions, critics of course :) Feel free to start the first post-Doomsday European Large Scale Conflict! :)--Xi&#39;Reney 23:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

So let's see... Mr.Xeight 00:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Aegean League-Every surviving part of Greece & Turkish Isles
 * Some clever name for the surving Turks
 * Cyprus
 * The rest of the surviving Balkans

If you’re going to have the Sicily Republic be aggressive and expansive, why not have them take over North Africa (eg. Libya, Algeria, and Tunisia)? Just an idea.--ShutUpNavi 15:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking, why not make a confederation out of the remaining Greece, Cyprus, & Malta. What do you think about them being "positive conquerors" by occupying the parts conquered by Sicily for themselves, but being good sports about it. Mr.Xeight 02:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Found something.... anybody knows about that??
hi all...

found that here when googling 1983 Doomsday... ... seems like a worked out somehow edited version of our timeline in pdf....Anybody of you guys heard about that... knows that site... made it ??

the version seems to be from around April, May or something...

user put it online is that one : jb2ookworm

not mocking about... just wondering...--Xi&#39;Reney 04:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it could be the same person who anonymously wrote the original timeline on this site. Or it could be a copycat.  Is there any way to contact "jb2ookworm" and ask who s/he is?  Regarding the content itself, I love what the writer did with the pictures.  Obviously his/her timeline has diverged significantly from ours, it has kept the "NUN" name while we replaced it with "League of Nations", and it speculates on the future while we aren't moving beyond the present day.  Benkarnell 12:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I added a comment asking about it. Benkarnell 13:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you Ben !! awaiting his response. Just doubt that it is our mysterious doctor emeritus as the Timeline Version He used is one of the early versions with some of my first editions in it (the Ireland Satellite retries was something I added quite early but removed then. So he made know changes himself aka copycatted the timeline apart from the - very good indeed- picture works. I might be able to trace it back in the edit history but dont thinks its necessary because I doubt any bad intentions by him. So let#s await his reaction and keep us updated ... Thank you--Xi&#39;Reney 21:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think we could all do a better job than just one person? We have an entire community behind us!Unforgiveable 04:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Could you specify this a bit further, Unforgiveable --Xi&#39;Reney 23:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

New Live Section... WCRB WorlWideNet Newsbar
hi every1

time to introduce a 'live' element to our ATL... The WCRB WorldWideNet Newsbar.

Intended for live updates and real-time-information...test will be the Mediterranean crisis currently building up...

that bar should be easy to update and bringing a direct element to the ATL. :) Feel free to insert... but sth. like only 10 messages in the 1st category, then maybe an News Archice thanks for comments if you like the idea... Cheers --Xi&#39;Reney 04:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

New Live Section... WCRB WorlWideNet Newsbar
hi every1

time to introduce a 'live' element to our ATL... The WCRB WorldWideNet Newsbar.

Intended for live updates and real-time-information...test will be the Mediterranean crisis currently building up...

that bar should be easy to update and bringing a direct element to the ATL. :) Feel free to insert... but sth. like only 10 messages in the 1st category, then maybe an News Archive thanks for comments if you like the idea... Cheers --Xi&#39;Reney 04:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Guideline for News section?
I just removed all pages that are more than 1 month old from the "news and updates" section. I hope that's all right with everyone. Benkarnell 12:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Accepted. Good Idea! --Xi&#39;Reney 04:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Sultanate of Brunei-Sarawak and Mindanao / Minor Issues on the Middle East
With this scenario, it's very likely that Mindanao Island would also become part of this Sultanate, as the Philippine government in Luzon Island would be decapitated by USSR nuclear strikes on Clark Field, Subic Bay and very likely Manila. Furthermore, the Mindanao populace, once released from any influence by the Philippine gov't would more naturally gravitate towards such an alliance. However, part of the territory could be disputed by rump warlords in the Visayan islands.

It's very likely that the Soviets would lob some tactical missiles towards Turkey and Israel; once Israel hears of the nuclear exchange, it's also very likely they would have done a blitz of their estimated 50 warheads on Middle East states (Syria, Jordan, Iraq AND Iran in particular) therefore also devastating the area. There would be likely a small remnant of Soviet troops tied up in Afghanistan; India would also suffer from Chinese nuclear strikes as well.

Why would Israel launch nuclear missiles into the Middle East just because turkey got nuked? It wasn’t aligned with anyone so they would not have any reason to get involved with shooting off WMD’s, especially with against other middle eastern states that are neutral and have no nuclear weapons. Also China and India had little to do with each other, so having China nuke India after a soviet attack would be as stupid as the US using nuclear weapons on Nicaragua after being attacked from the USSR.--ShutUpNavi 00:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I could add to that: the USSR had no real reason to nuke China, but they did.


 * Honestly, the POD is a little "ASB", if you will - there's a couple things there that, like you said, are less than 100% realistic for a real scenario like the one described. But the point is to create a situation where nuclear war affects all the major centers of power and/or population; if the Doomsday narrative needs to be tweaked to allow that, so be it.  Me, I'm fine dealing with the world that emerges after that war, even if I know the original premise is a little shaky.  --Benkarnell 07:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Would a weakened Turkey be open for Greek occupation? If so, I got some things in-store. Mr.Xeight 01:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mindanao/Philippines: Just go ahead whoever wrote it (please login/register) as that ideas sounds good


 * Israel : unlikely to attack its neighbours in the middle of WW3 as they would soon suffer from the combined fallout radiation from their weapons and the Soviet/ US ones... think they take shelter...well prepared they were, training in civil defense and everything... a wise politician at that time would see that keeping the 50+ WMD's would be a better card to play   both as offensive (no one else within 2000-3000 kms having nukes, Isreal even stronger than before??) as well as defense: no more protection from the mighty USA...which neighbour would try to get himself nuked by Israel when EVERYONE has seen the effects of bombs raining down..


 * Greek/Turkey --> I dont know in depth if greece would be attacked as well as a NATO member close to USSR, Black Sea Fleet etc...maybe someone got some details/ facts regarding that? we also have had a discussion about cyprus, greece and turkey and started the Aegean League comprising some territories of the area... i think here Cyprus (1983: Doomsday and the discussion...?? also keep in mind Sicily 1983: Doomsday and the mediterranean in general (Yugoslavia, the whole Balkan..., Suez Channel Zone etc.) :)
 * Shaky POD premise:... :) Yeah that's right... the initial POD makes it a bit difficult to explore everything a 100% correct. But i doubt that a 100%... or even 95% approach is feasible as the event was without ANY foreplay, political tensions or something alike...There might be the necessity to implement certain minor POD's slightly ahead of 26th September 1983 to justify everything that has been worked out...
 * But in General I agree to Ben that the setting as it is works fine until now with our main work focussing on the world's reaction in the last 25 years...so if a fine adjustment in tehe POD needs to made (someone wants?) thaht will be fine... That's my thought for that... greetz from NZ--Xi&#39;Reney 04:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This may be a good summary of the events of 26 September :-D. Benkarnell 06:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well even if this time line is ASB can you please leave the Middle East alone for now? For the sake of the story I think it would be interesting to see how this region would play out on its own (i.e without foreign interference). I already have the first article up about the first gulf war (which is OTLs Iran-Iraq war).--ShutUpNavi 21:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

In 1983 conflics, after 1983 conflict, real world/doomsday
Copy-paste list of Ongoing Conflict in 1983 from wikipedia.--Fero 22:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Chadian Civil War (1965-1993)

Cold War (1945-1991)

Namibian War of Independence (1966-1988)

Second Malayan Emergency (1967-1989)

South African Border War (1965-1989)

The Troubles in Northern Ireland (1968-1998)

Lebanese Civil War (1975–1990)

and copy-paste list of wars/conflicts in 1980-1989 from wikipedia --Fero 22:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Doomsday list of conflicts

First Gulf War (1983: Doomsday) on 22 September 1980 - December 16th 1987, in Iran, Iraq, Kurdishstan territories, result to Kurdish-Iranian Victory

conflicts
this timeline deals with a hypothetical nuclear war in 1983 since the worl was devestated mankind has more inportant things to do like surviving so many conflicts post 1983 didnt take place Chip2008

Survival needs coming into contact with another person's needs can create warfare. They can be named like our wars that did happen, just for different reasons. Mr.Xeight 02:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Layout changes
To straighten up the Portl Page a bit,I redirected a few contents to their own pages. Will continue doing this in the next time. Feel free to commnt about that.--Xi&#39;Reney 11:27, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Foundation expansion
Hi every1...

inserted a new news structure. I also got the idea to start working on a few non-political resp. non-military themes like sports,culture,climate..."everyday catastrophes" (rude word). Please feel free to join in on these themes as you like.,, :)

Thank you--Xi&#39;Reney 11:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Founder of the feast
As the original author of "1983: Doomsday", I'd like to compliment those who taken it and expanded it into the great althist that it is. All I did was read about Stanislav Petrov and make the leap to "What if it happened otherwise". But my "successors" have fleshed it out into a "real alternative universe". Great job all. 97.82.131.34 01:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As you seem to be authentic (sorry for looking up your IP's edit history, always a bit difficult with the anonymous ones :)..... Thank you for your appreciation!! The original ideas always represented the nucleus of the work done and lot of the original content can still be found throughout the Timeline by our WCRB (1983: Doomsday) (which still bears the original name... :)
 * I'd love to see one on my "1989: Wipeout" (Ebola pandemic) or my "One Small Step for a Socialist..." (USSR wins the Space Race) althists, if you guys are interested in those ideas. 97.82.131.34 03:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

So cheers and thank you --Xi&#39;Reney 21:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)