Talk:Legacy of Rome

I've just thought of something, LG. After the revolt which deposes the Bosonids, could the claimant seek France's help in regaining the throne? Weren't the Bosonids related to the Royal Family? If they accept, would it be in Otto's interests to intervene on behalf of Oberto and the Pope?

Canuck2012 (talk) 18:29, March 30, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

No, they really were not related. One member of the family - different branch than the one you're dealing with here, fairly far removed - was elected king of France for a while, but only because he had married a daughter of the last one, who had deposed the king before him (and the son of that king succeeded Rudolf). His children were not even considered for the role. His enemy, for all purposes, succeeded him to the throne, and this was a few years prior to the PoD. Lordganon (talk) 11:33, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

Besides that, would there be any benefits for the French to support Bosonid claim to the Italian throne? Would there be benefits for Otto I to support the Pope and Oberto?

Canuck2012 (talk) 19:48, March 31, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

On both counts, not really. Lordganon (talk) 13:41, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

So, a three way war for the Italian throne or HRE title is probably not feasible?

Canuck2012 (talk) 21:42, April 5, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Pretty much. Lordganon (talk) 06:54, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't mean a three way more. But I'm pretty sure you got what I was asking anyway.

Canuck2012 (talk) 12:46, April 7, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Ayup. Lordganon (talk) 00:00, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, would a succesful conquest of Brittany by Charlemagne change history enough that the current POD is nullified, or would that be doable?

Canuck2012 (talk) 23:42, April 8, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Would more or less nullify it, but the man never tried to do that, and had no reason to do so. Given the beatings his grandson and son got, however, he'd have either lost or took massive casualties to do it, had he tried. Lordganon (talk) 10:36, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. If Burgundy invaded Italy to put the Bosonids back in power and secure the title of Emperor, would the French or Germans intervene?

There's also something that I've been thinking about.

During the Crusades, the Dome of the Rock was temporarily converted into a church. Is there any possibilty that negotiations could share the building between Christians and Muslims? Could that be extended to Jews, probably later on?

Canuck2012 (talk) 23:12, April 11, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

No on all counts. Lordganon (talk) 10:29, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Having Christian and Muslim access to that site would be a stretch, too, wouldn't it?

Is there any possibility for a Third Temple to be built around that area at some point?

Also, would it be acceptable to have a "Current News" section that is named The Observer? It's not exactly original, as an existing newspaper is called that, but The Observer fits all too well as an organization that, for the most part, observes international events unbiasedly.

Canuck2012 (talk) 19:49, April 15, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Yup.

No.

Power to you.

Lordganon (talk) 12:45, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, since the HRE is going to stay Italian, would Germany have a stronger, earlier influence and control of the the North March, Silesia, and Pomerania?

Also, I'm still really not sure about how I have Oberto I negotiating with Lothair of France and Otto for them to recognize him as the Holy Roman Emperor. They're too powerful to simply be bossed around by such a small kingdom, with a king who really hasn't that much information about him. Or a picture. Or statue. Anything, really. Unless they were agreeing to divide Burgundy between themselves, and/or leave the Pope to decide who is the rightful claimant. And I honestly can't see why they'd just randomly divide Burgundy, unless some kind of incident peeves off all three parties, which I can't imagine. Or bilateral negotations between Italy and France/Germany eventually involves the other.

One last thing, would there be any real attempts to build a Third Temple in Jerusalem? I think I read somewhere there was a proposal to build it on or around Mount Sibai? Though, this would depend on a lot of things.

Oh, and can the Abbasids realistically reconquer the Umayyads by the end of the 10th Century?

Canuck2012 (talk) 21:01, April 17, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Germans already more or less controlled those areas, or would not do so for centuries.

Yes, really does not work.

No.

No.

Lordganon (talk) 09:20, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

So, than I really need to rework this timeline.

Could Papal backing prevent France, Germany, or Burgundy from invading or asserting their claims?

As an alternative, you don't suppose Adelaide could succesfully break it off with Otto if she wanted to?

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:07, April 20, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Not really.

Hinder, yes, but not necessarily prevent.

No.

Lordganon (talk) 10:35, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

But if Oberto can't persuade Germany, France, and Burgundy to renounce their claims, doesn't that make this TL implausible?

Just out of curiousity, with or without Papal support, could Italy realistically defend themselves against Germany and Burgundy if they attacked, using the Alps?

Also, say Germany allies with Burgundy to counter France, would France renounce claims to gain Italy as an ally, particularly if they could hold out against both Burgundy and Germany?

Also, how realistic would it be to have a monarchy-majority world?

Canuck2012 (talk) 20:50, April 22, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Germany wouldn't be at war with Italy, imo. And Italy wouldn't need outside support to beat Burgundy. Invade it, yes - but not to defend itself from it.

France would really not have a thing to renounce. They could support Italian claims, mind.

To have most nations be monarchies is not impossible.

Lordganon (talk) 03:17, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't Germany attempt to invade Italy to reclaim the throne?

If France supported the HRE, could that lead to alliance?

Could Burgundy and Germany ally to counter the Franco-Roman alliance?

If they go to war while Hugh Capet is alive, could France and Italy defeat Germany and Burgundy, with peace talks renouncing French claims to Lorraine and establishing Burgundy as a French vassal?

I ask this because I'm debating whether or not a US, if OTL colonization takes place, or a US analog, will become a republic or be granted self government. If that happens, could whatever power that is gain control over the OTL US, Canada, and Alaska? Or is that way too large a territory?

If Russia comes to be, and becomes an empire, and succesfully reforms at some point, would the Baltic states, if part of the empire, be granted self-government?

Also, if in this TL a pope condemns slavery, would it be illegalized in most European countries? Obviously, the slave trade would still be in place, and it would still exist in those counries where it was illegal.

Canuck2012 (talk) 15:59, April 26, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Difficult to try, and would lead to open revolt in Germany.

No.

In theory, but not really. It's a question of temporary switches between powers. Much like Europe prior to the 1800s.

Burgundy has equal rank to France. Can't be a vassal. Nor do the French have any claims to Lorraine at this time.

It is highly unlikely that a US would exist. Much more likely is that it ends up split between several powers.

Unlikely that the Baltic states are part of it. Self-government would depend on the Russian regime.

No Pope would condemn it.

Lordganon (talk) 11:43, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

So, Burgundy plays France and Germany off eachother until Burgundy is weak enough to be overcome by one or the other?

Would a British North America encompassing Adams-Onis US, perhaps including Alaska if that's not too stretchy?

EDIT: I'm having a crisis. I want to do this timeline, but I'd like my (first) TL to be similar, yet different than OTL, as in OTL patterns appear, as well as a certain fraction of OTL people (who lead different lives in most cases). I fear that this POD simply goes to far back for that to be considered non-ASB or a featured timeline, so if I want a timeline that is similar, yet different than OTL, with OTL patterns emerging as well as people, would I need to have a POD closer to the modern era for it to be conceivable?

Certain PODs I've thought of are having Napoleon toned down. Basically, having the Kingdom of France reform after Louis XVI abdicates in favour of the next-in-line when revolutionaries come knocking-literally, redrawing the map of Europe and ensuring that France is the dominant power for at least half a century.

Only problem is, there's FTBW.

Other one would be playing the Civil War out differently so that by its end, the Confederates are in no bargaining position and viewed as traitors to the Union, and/or Lincoln (or equivalent) is not assassinated, leading to different outcomes for Reconstruction.

Here's an interesting thread on the topic. http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=300668

Or both. Only problem is, I like the ideas of a HRE in Italy and a Spanish Empire that includes Portugal's, among others.

Should I be worrying so much about how ASB-non-ASB this tl should or shouldn't be, or should I just gor for it and see where I end up?

Also, is there a way to get rid of disambigurations after you rename a TL? 'Cause I seriously do not feel like just deleting things all the time. Complete waste of time.

(Sorry about the length: this has been bothering me for a while)

Canuck2012 (talk) 19:48, May 1, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

More or less. For it to survive is going to take all three of the other kingdoms more or less collapsing. It getting split, ala~ otl, is more likely, though.

A BNA that size isn't impossible. However, you've got to remember that a scenario where the continent is much more split up than otl is more likely.

No, you do not need to reform anything. Current PoD is good for that goal.

That France scenario really isn't happening.

Only difference in that USCW bit is Lincoln surviving - and that would basically invalidate the rest of the same statement.

Go for it, and stop worrying about it.

The redirects, you mean? Just unclick the box to leave one.

Lordganon (talk) 01:45, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Why can't the France scenario not happen? If France had someone who was higher up than Napoleon, could France not defend herself as well as mildly dominate a good portion of Europe? I hope you know that I'm not saying it'd be a France-wank. In this scenario I'd imagine French hegemony to be limited to Spain, Italy, Germany, and the Low Countries, while their interests would be preserving their European status quo and building her African empire.

What do you mean Lincoln's survival would invalidate the rest of the statement? The thread has some pretty interesting, believable scenarios.

I think. How do you do that? Just Rename Page?

Canuck2012 (talk) 16:05, May 4, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

That's not really what you said about France before.

French Revolution successful at all, Kingdom doesn't reform without external force.

Recent part, certainly possible.

Learn to ignore a lot of those guys on AH. First guy that posted has it in a lot of ways. Essentially, with Lincoln not dying, Reconstruction is extremely moderate, far more so than in otl. The traitor bit is essentially what happened otl.

Yes, Rename page.

Lordganon (talk) 09:04, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to a power equivalent to the British Empire's.

But if the French revolutionaries' original demands were met, could France not reform into a constitutional monarchy?

Which recent part, sorry?

So if Lincoln was still around, things would stay the same? No possibility of a situation like in Britain or France?

The only boxes that I can find are to follow the page and rename the talk page. I can't find anything that gets rid of the redirects.

Canuck2012 (talk) 19:57, May 6, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Too much. You saw how that went down otl.

Last France bit.

No, if he was still around things would be better. Problems would not go past 1870, then, with regards to politics, rather than persisting.

Should be right between those boxes. If it is not there, switch browsers.

Lordganon (talk) 09:28, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Can you clarify? Do you mean too much as in the British were too powerful?

Okay.

So, would you say that the situation in the US would be comparable to Britain or France?

Also, slightly irrelevant, but the Book of Negroes is being filmed where I live within the next three weeks.

Could Columbus or some equivalent make contact with the Aztecs roughly around 1492 after discovering the Caribbean?

I've used IE, Yahoo, and Bing, and nothing.

Canuck2012 (talk) 00:52, May 9, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

The French constitutional part. Didn't say anything about the British comment.

No.

Not impossible, but doubtful. Take a few voyages first.

Yahoo and Bing are not browsers. In Chrome, the button is there.

Lordganon (talk) 08:04, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so are you saying that the French revolutionaries' demands were too much to make it viable, or what?

If French kings went down more the English path, could a consitutional monarchy be established by that point?

Can you elaborate on how much things would be better, than?

Okay, so say a voyage tours the Caribbean in first somewhere in between 1492 and 1495, second 1496 and 1498, and third in 1502, would the second or third have been more succesful in establishing contact?

...did you do some editing, 'cause there's only now a Follow Page box and there are less entries in the Move Log.

Canuck2012 (talk) 22:35, May 9, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

In the situation of France, yes, they were too much. Too much change, too fast, equals chaos.

Probably.

Reconstruction would be better, be less hate. Have a look at Reconstruction, and it would be a far milder version of that with Lincoln alive.

Third. But the Aztecs, in truth, were inland - it would be contact with one of their subject peoples there.

No.

Lordganon (talk) 08:10, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, say the French have a limited form of parliamentarianism by 1789, could a French Revolution occur, but much more moderately, to adopt a much more consitutional system?

When I have more time,I'll take a more in-depth look.

Between 1502 and 1520, could it be reasonable to have the Spanish found trading posts along the coasts?

Strange.

Canuck2012 (talk) 15:29, May 10, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

If that were the case, there would be no Revolution.

Not in Mexico.

Lordganon (talk) 09:21, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Is there any real way to have a more moderate French Revolution at all?

Could they found missions, than? Could they function as trading posts, and sort of like embassies?

I've been thinking, is In Company With Wolves badly worded? Would it be better for it to be worded like In the Company of Wolves?

Canuck2012 (talk) 00:51, May 12, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Not really. All or nothing kind of thing.

No, and No.

No, and No.

Lordganon (talk) 07:51, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

How realistic would it be to have a monarchist restoration without Napoleon going crazy (figuratively)?

Say Spanish seek trade instead of conquest in this TL, could, with new ideas and innovations from the Spanish changing Aztec society, could the reigning monarch be assassinated, and, seeking their chance, their subjects rebel. Could the reblling tribes succesfully defeat the Aztecs? Would they destroy Tenochtitlan? After the Mexica and Christian massacres, would Spain intervene? How long would it take to conquer Mexico, if the assassination, rebellion, and massacres occur roughly between 1519-1521?

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:04, May 13, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

All you need is the French to lose.

Not happening. Spanish would never do trade.

Lordganon (talk) 13:57, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

What if the French monarchs did have a parliamentary system, but kept dissolving them for whatever reasons, and were completely composed of the aristocracy. Could, a French "Revolution" occur? I mean in the same way that people call the 1837 Upper and Lower Canada Uprisings as Rebellions. The only demands the "revolutionaries" would to be represented in the parliament and have the monarch bound permanently to a consitution. Could a Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen come about or would this France be more moderate?

I'm debating whether or not to keep China imperialist in this TL. If not, I'd have a Republic, I'm kind of partial to having an authoritarian Republic that democratizes in the 70s, though since there won't be a USSR, there'd be no PRC, and democratization would probably occur a long time before than.

I guess I could also have both for a time, if the Imperialists somehow entrench themselves in Manchuria.

Here's the flag I think I've finally nailed.

Yes, it's based off of the Five Races flag, but meant to invoke more a message of unity and harmony, as exemplified by the Taijitu in the middle. If I remember correctly, the number nine was associated with the Emperor, hence the nine-point star and nine orbs. Not sure what they represent. I did have some influence from Code Geass's Chinese Federation flag.

Could it be potentially used alongside the Dragon Flag, with the Dragon Flag being the symbol of the Imperial Family?



Canuck2012 (talk) 00:11, May 14, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

One of the hallmarks of the Parliamentary system is that they can't do that. And, before you think it, they'd have gotten that ability at some point, just like the Brits did, in similar compromises. The mere fact that it is such a system means that they have the rights, etc. you mention already.

The two events in the Canadas were indeed rebellions. Just really pathetic ones.

China has been imperialist for millennia, and still is today despite their squawks to the contrary. No way that changes. Government type, more or less irrelevant.

Nice flag.

Not impossible for it to be flown as well, but... kind of unlikely. There is a reason why royal symbols tended to turn into national flags and crests.

Lordganon (talk) 10:04, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Wasn't that the case with the early English parliament? Wasn't it suspended at quite lengthy times until the Civil War?

So, no democracy in China? I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I also have an idea, though I'm not sure how feasible it is. Say Chinese history goes much the same until between the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion, where some form of Consitutionalist group gains enough influence to be considered a major player in the Xinhai Revolution. Since it's a big enough group, a provisional government is declared to basically prevent China from descending into civil war, which lasts for a few years before the Beiyang Army (or some ATL form) seizes Beijing and declares martial law throughout China. Would they have enough power to challenge Consitutionalist and Kuomintang power to the point where the only way to achieve a counter-coup would be to agree to work together, along with other fringe groups and Tibetan autonomists and Mongolian independists?

The only reason I'm designing new flags is because the OTL one is horrid in my opinion. This is the only one I've been satisfied with for over a two or three year period.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:08, May 15, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012

Suspended, not really. Sent to new elections, yes. English law meant that they had to be called for a ton of things, more or less preventing any such suspensions.

The French equivalent, however, was suspended for decades at a time.

"Imperialist" is not a kind of government. Rather, it is a governing philosophy. It's been in place in China for millennia, no matter the government. Any democracy in China needs to be somewhat along those lines. You mistake "imperial" for "imperialist." Difference concepts.

Wouldn't even have enough power to establish a provisional government.

Lordganon (talk) 12:48, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

So if a French king has suspended the Parliament for some time before 1789-1792, could there realistically, if there are similar conditions to OTL, be a revolt to limit the King's power and enfranchise the people? If the King stpes down, would that automatically lead to a Republic, or if a member of the family is well liked by the people, who supports Enlightenment ideals, could be put on the throne?

Okay, that makes more sense. Guess I got confused by the wording.

So at most, if the "consitutionalists" are a major player, China would simply collapse into civil war?

In this scenario, would it be feasible to have the Imperialists make arrangements with Tibetans to have Tibet become autonomous of China, like some equivalent of a territory? This would come in handy so they wouldn't be fighting against so many different groups and could provide relief as well.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:12, May 16, 2014 (UTC)Canuck2012