Talk:DME (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

Discussion of the plans
Can we not just have a pact to all support one another against non-Muslim aggressors for the time being? It provides the same benefit of protection plus we retain greater control of our respective nations.

An idea I have for an interesting way to establish this caliphate is we have a rise up and re-establish the great Muslim caliphate. The Mahdi establishes a large caliphate after taking over all of our nations, and then goes on to big himself up with religious feelings after people start thinking its the. As the supposed end of the world draws closer all of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgment occur and the Muslim world gets ready for the end of the world. Then when nothing happens and the world doesn't end, a huge renaissance of liberal thinking takes place as it turns out the Mahdi was a fraud and the world doesn't end. The caliphate then enters a period of civil disarray, which ends up with it either collapsing and we divide the territory up between ourselves or we form a federation like caliphate. For me it seems more likely the Mahdi being caught out as a fraud to throw the caliphate into civil disarray, and then a bunch of local warlords & leaders fight for control, ending up in a series of successor states.

Anyway what you guys think of that? The eschatology has always interested me so I figured using some to create this state would be interesting. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sound intesting for an Althistory! But, I was planning something a small bit more prestigious, say like the Caliphate (as said). But the idea you presented was very similar to what I did at the end of PMI. Saamwiil (talk) 20:23, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to go ahead with this plan you certainly have my support. We could stretch it over a few decades as we have this Mahdi rise to power, and then when his caliphate extends over the entire, we can have that when the Mahdi is in control upon the earth for certain time, seven, nine or nineteen 7, 9, 19 years, after which ensues the death of all civilization just preceding the Judgement. During this period we have the other signs being noticed but then eventually nothing happens and the thing collaspes in on itself.

Just wondering how you intend to make it more prestigious? This plan half includes the Caliphate going super expansionist, trying to take over all of the world. I can't really think how much more prestigious we can get lol. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

For the Mahdi, we could have the 1428 Catalan Earthquake, the 1481 Rhodes Earthquake and 1509 Istambul Earthquake, and some big fire-war for the smokes. The sun rising from the west might be the discovery of the Americas if the Muslims have a part on it, or Granada/Morocco/Mali rising under a ruthless pan-Islamic leader (which can be the Fake Messiah). That or a new Christian Crusade (the Messiah being Jesus). Gog and Magog might be an Uzbek resurgenece seeking to restore Timur's Empire or even more, the Mongol Empire? (in which case Gog and Magog might be the Uzbeks and their leader, the Uzbeks and the Hindu or the Uzbeks and the Mongols). It's the Beast and Jesus which I can't see coming back.

Though if we skip those two we might be in a pretty good position to put a fake Mahdi in and create the DME. Fed (talk) 23:09, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, can there not be a fake Mahdi, maybe something slightly more moderate, like a fake decendant from Muhammad. Saamwiil (talk) 23:14, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

A proper descendant of Muhammad might happen in the, and it'd be cool to have a new Caliph, but a unified nation wouldn't be able to exist because a descendant of Muhammad would make everybody Shi'ite and nobody wants that if you're Sunni. Fed (talk) 23:38, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

True dat man, but Sunnis wouldn't mind, as long as they're not the only choice... Let's see..... How about a slow building, through marriages. Saamwiil (talk) 23:42, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's more likely, and with the three earthquakes and some of the prophesies being fullfilled, we can also have an extremist faction believing that the Hashemites are actually the Mahdi, leading to them to add the title of "Mahdi" to the full title of the Caliph.

I also believe we could do some sort of personal union with maybe some sort of more individual national rights. Fed (talk) 23:49, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Customs Monetary Union Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:50, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I was planning to keep individual national rights. We'd only adopt things a majority of us voted on... Saamwiil (talk) 23:51, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

So we could vote for something like the Geneva Convention except name it the Medina Convention. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:52, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well something less formal. Say I married the Mamluks and the Marininds marry Granada.

Nasrids. not Granada

Hm? Saamwiil (talk) 23:57, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah we can always make up an even worse earthquake if necessary, natural disasters probably won't happen exactly how they did in OTL so I can always do a mod event for 3 large devastating earthquakes. We could use a huge wildfire in southern Sudan for the "Fire from the west of what is now Yemen" and this could be the smoke too. If not we could have a big volcano explosion which is mostly ash.

The beast we could have as people living in the desert claiming to have seen it and maybe even a copycat serial killer? As for Jesus, someone could claim to be him but I'm not too sure if we'd be able to have him do miracles & stuff. TBH if we get the other stuff done then this stuff can just be from misinterpretations of people who are all caught up & flustered with the approaching end of the world. We'd just keep this stuff vage, but not sure how we have Jesus assist the Mahdi in restoring Islam, unless we have a fake Jesus too.

As for a fake descendant from Muhammad, we could include this in with this plan, as in the Shia view of the Mahdi and, has the Mahdi being an infallible male descendant of the founder of Islam, Muhammad, was born but disappeared, Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi. Besides there have been many potential Mahdi in OTL, so if his and his father's names were the same as Muhammad's and his father's, and he had come to Mecca from the north, then they can sort of begin claiming to be Mahdi. Give the Mahdi more success in battle than the potential Mahdi in OTL, and more people will believe & support their divinity.

We can always do other caliphate stuff after this plan, and you'll have my support if you want to do your own caliphate plan later on. But I think this plan is too awesome not to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my point was for a more mild thing if we didn't want to follow all those clues as precisely so that it was somewhat more plausible. But I'm all for the Mahdi, and it being around the 1490s (so that either Granada/Morocco/Mali rises or America is discovered, and thus "the sun rises from the west").

BTW, another coincidence; the Marinid's symbol was a star. Maybe the Mahdi is a Marinid after a Marinid marries a Hashemite? Fed (talk) 00:07, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah he can be. Like you say, yeah we won't be able to have it precisely, but if most the stuff happens and we have all the hype, we can just have much of that stuff as vague gossip which is sensationalized into near-fact. Its just the Jesus helping the Mahdi I'm struggling to work out, I mean we could always make a divergent timeline where Jesus really does come down to Earth and the day of judgement actually happens. Otherwise Jesus not appearing and the world not ending could be the cause of the Mahdi to loose followers, until it slowly just collapses on itself. That coupled with a few battles being lost and the Europeans managing to push us back. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:30, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, for late response had to make Moroccan Tea and eat KusKus with the family. Hmm. All good ideas. Trying to fuse and integrate. Maybe in the same year, there is 3 earthquakes near the capitals of this nation, and they take it as a sign of God, including the death of the heir. And say the daughter of the Mamluk Sultan claims to be a heshimite and the Maranid King marries her. Making him king. Then my heir dies so a daughter marries a Prince of Oman. After 20 years, the same things happen to those unions... Saamwiil (talk) 00:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You can just take over Oman by conquest. It'll be easier, and I wanna get rid of the Nabhan Dynasty and establish a new dynasty anyway. You can simulate wars if both sides agree to the outcome so this should speed things up, otherwise we'll loose the Timurid/Mongol threat VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:12, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So I conquer you. Mamluk makes Granda a semivassel. I have no sons, mary the Mamluks. We'll see about the Maranids. We have to make the DME more contiguos before we include them (Say annexing the Hafsids, which might take time). Saamwiil (talk) 01:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Right then, until then I'll continue to expand into the Bedouin territory. Perhaps the Mamluks start a war against the Hasfids now? Also I think we should re-organise this stuff into a clear time frame plan of what we do, so we all know what we need to be doing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:36, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'm going to post a plan and move all of this to the talk page, fine with you. ~Saamwill

Fine by me.

If y'all still want a Turko-Mongolic threat to arise, I will see what I can do. Do you have a specific time you want? (preferably in the next couple decades before the khanates all start getting crushed by the Chinese and Russians)LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ottomans
Oh and try get DeanSims on-board with this plan could someone? His Ottoman Empire will be an important asset to the caliphate. Anyway I'm going to bed now so you'll have to wait a few hours for anymore output from me VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:45, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we will before colonization.

The plan & rough outline of each stage
I'll conquer some of the Smaller Turksih states after expanding, about another 3 years or so. Saamwiil (talk) 17:26, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I amended a bit because us people in the plan mean we can go for a multiple of plan goals with our individual nations. This will not only arose less suspicion, it also means we don't risk overstretching ourselves. So basically since these things are sure-fire to definitely happen we should pursue the more difficult goals which aren't entirely in our hands (e.g. conquering NPC nations), plus otherwise if you conquer me dead early on, I don't have much to do in the game & I don't wanna get too bored. Plus if I stay allied with you and remain independent you get a higher score in the algorithm from military aid being sent to you from your allies.

Anyway specifically on Aq Qoyunlu conquering Oman, I plan for Oman to continue expanding for a while until border disputes and rivalry ends up with war breaking out. Basically Oman starts to get too cocky with its navy, so You & the Mamluks defeat me on land but Oman's greater naval strength allows Oman to put off an aquatic invasion by your Turks, then you plot with another Omani noble family to have them overthrow the Nabhan Dynasty, and this new Omani noble family who consqired with you stages a coup and overthrows the Nabhan & bows down to Aq Qoyunlu to become a vassal state.

Basically stage 1 is take over the near-by NPCs, expanding into the unclaimed black territory as much as possible. This period should also allow us to build up our infrastructure. E.g. I plan for Oman to become the dominant naval power in Arabia and the Indian Ocean, to give the future caliphate a nice building block to build a strong navy and large trade empire/income/connections. Plus we can use this stage as a building period to make sure we have other Muslim nation players on board with the plan who are yet to declare loyalty in joining the plan.

Stage 2 is when we join together either via marriage, vassalization, puppet states or conquest. The marriage unifying Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks, is the final joining peace. The new Barbarian khanate rises in the east too, perhaps lead by another great military genius like Gengis Khan or Timurlame.

Stage 3 is when the caliphate is formed, a short civil war may break out as this is formed. Then a new caliphate comes to power after he dies, and the future Mahdi comes to become the Caliph. The Mahdi caliph's authority is solidified by great military victories and some of the signs of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgement, to the point he goes and declares himself the Mahdi.

Stage 4 is when the Mahdi now rules over nearly all of the Ummah, and he wages many successful wars against the Barbarians, Europeans, Africans and Indians. This period of super expansionism lasts nine years as foretold by the hadiths, as the muslim armies spurred on by the Mahdi try to conquer the world & make it Muslim, ready for the day of judgement. More hadith signs are noticed and the caliphate goes mental with religious duty, feelings and terrified celebration as the day of judgement is nearly upon them.

Stage 5 is less mental super-expansionism, and the Mahdi begins to loose some support. The caliphate expands more slowly and battles begin to be lost. This will probably be when the Holy Roman Empire ends up unifying, and they push us out of Europe. This period lasts ten more years, and as the 20th year of the Mahdi's rule takes place, most people begin to question whether he really is the true Mahdi as the day of judgement still hasn't occurred. Perhaps a huge natural disaster happens so people think its the day, but it really isn't?

Stage 6 is the downfall of the Mahdi's caliphate, the Mahdi is found to be a fraud (perhaps a fake Jesus who claims to be divine is caught out, and the Mahdi looses his legitimacy). We all split up, as the empire looses even more against its enemies, and factions in the caliphate split it up between themselves, as it all collapses in on itself.

So is this okay with you all? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:52, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So you do want me to make a strong barbarian khanate? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:11, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

When we're just about finished with stage 1, yes please. I'm thinking a new military genius leader likened to Gengis Khan, Atlia or Tamerlane takes over. This could happen as he tries to establish a new great khanate/hoard as the other ones around him seem to be failing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:18, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we're underestimating what the Christian nations will do in the north. We barely held the Muslim foothold in the Iberic Peninsula, and now all the nations in the area noted this, forming alliance and whatnot. Though Christian Nations are no threat right now, France and England and their respective coalition practically dividing the powerful nations of the Christian World, Christian Nations as they grow stronger will take tough action. Ianian58 (talk) 20:32, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but since anti-European expansionism will last ~20 years, then we will most likely take them by surprise. And the conquest will not take long; we'll just take a large swathe of territory then collapse and lose it.

This Mahdi caliphate is a simulated special event like the Mesheryakovist wars in PM1. This plan isn't designed to make an ever lasting caliphate to rule the world, so we will conquer bits of Europe but eventually as the Mahdi is seen not to be the real one then the whole thing looses speed until it collapses in on itself. We already know Europe will win eventually, but this plan will deal them a deadly blow which will put them a couple of years behind such as stopping them collonizing the Americas as easily as many Europeans will die. Plus the players taking part in this plan will be able to carve out larger successor states as the caliphate collapses.

The only way this plan actually lasts forever is if the day of judgement actually happens and the world ends. This plan will lead to much less fundamentalist Islam, as the thing just turns out to be a lie and people start questioning more about the religion (e.g. if that guy really wasn't the Mahdi, how do we know the prophet really was a prophet?). Oman for one is going to be much less conservative & religious for one, and more secular atheist nation, allowing it to be more scientific in the future. Everyone else is free to do whatever they want with their nations, but that is what I'm planning to take from the failure of this caliphate.

It also gives us a better foundation for a EU-esque caliphate in the future. This is not an end-game project, its just a special event to spice things up and make things easier for us Muslim nations in the future. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:06, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, since the leader will probably be an exile from the fallen Oirats Khanate, he would be Buddhist. So you said you wanted there to be two threats to Islam (Gog and Magog), so the two threats would be the Mongols and the Buddhists. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be a redundancy? I mean, the Buddhist would be the Mongols wouldn't they?

Maybe the Uzbeks and the Uyghurs (Oirats) could work... Fed (talk) 01:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, since the Empire is in a bit of tough times with Italy, it's not like they will really be able to field their full strength if we sneak in a few troops into Malta and Sicily. (OF COURSE, this is an entirely "me speaking as Fed" post, not as me "speaking like the Mamluk Sheik", since it's a secret event as of now) Fed (talk) 01:47, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Their should be 2 or 3 Caliphs before the fake MAHDI, the third one not leaving a successor, therefore allowing the fake Mahdi to rise to power due to loyalty of followers against many weak pretenders to the throne. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, while we have the first 2 or 3 Caliphs we assimilate all the other territories into the Caliphate, and then once we get the Mahdi we start a huge war campaign against Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:22, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Then one after, which the Empire would fall apart with. First the farthest Territories, Morocco and Granada, then Oman revolt, then finally the split between the Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu. This would all take about 10 years in my mind.Saamwiil (talk) 07:05, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm thinking the great generals split up the caliphate between themselves too. We'll have a large civil war/power vacuum. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Positions in the caliphate
No semi-vassal. I want to be my own independant country. In this Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks get to go super expansionist and get to have lots of fun conquering while I get stuck as a cruddy vassal. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 22:22, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's why you're a semi-vassal. You can do whatever you want, we just need you to officially be a vassal so that we can have every muslim country apart of it. However, you should focus on your navy, and exploration, so you can get lots of land in the New World. Saamwiil (talk) 04:08, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

The Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu join together to form the caliphate, you as a vassal of the Mamluks then join the caliphate too. If you don't want to become a vassal then be assimilated into the caliphate like that, you could have Granda be conquered by the caliphate or your leader declares loyalty to the caliph and has Granda join the caliphate. Like Sammwill I also recommend you focus on your navy, and exploration, so Granda can get lots of land in the New World. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:17, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

So, I think I (Morocco) should try to counter European Colonism on important costal areas in the sea. Ianian58 (talk) 18:21, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead, the more the merrier, eh? Saamwiil (talk) 07:03, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking perhaps once the caliphate itself is formed, we each post as one of the caliphate's great generals waging war on one of the many fronts of the caliphate. Any other thoughts on what we're going to do individually when we're one big caliphate? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:11, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that could work, but I think more as posting as provinces of the Caliphate, which will slowly increase in number as the end of the Mahdi's rule approaches. So an activity per province, if we post as generals, it would show a lack of support from the other generals, which I don't think would be accurate. Saamwiil (talk) 20:19, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Bit of a problem
Okay guys, we have a bit of a problem for our contiguous DME, which is the Pope has invaded Tunisia. We need to act quickly to make as much of the problem end IMO, so I'm invading Tunisia this turn if there's no objections and advise the Marinids to do the same. Fed (talk) 01:00, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I will send you military aid. However, we must also help Tunisia against the Pope. Making it more of a 3-way war... The pope must not have Muslim lands! Saamwiil (talk) 01:06, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

So we side with the Hafsids and help them throw the Pope out but refuse to return their lands? Fed (talk) 01:43, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, about. And take some if possible. Saamwiil (talk) 01:49, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Be sure to write your support in the war. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that everyone show support for Tunisia, we can begin to weaken European powers. Saamwiil (talk) 02:47, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry but I am not joining this plan. But this does not effect our alliances in-game so no meta-gaming. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 03:01, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Why you not joining this plan then? You realize if your not on board then you'll just have to be conquered as we invade Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:21, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Can't support much, Maranid isn't exactly a peacful, stable, growing kingdom. Ianian58 (talk) 22:32, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay. Just invite some Mamluk advisors, (Aq Qoyunlu is more of a federation), and focus on your navy and exploration.Saamwiil (talk) 03:28, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah once your country is part of the caliphate, Maranid's instability & stuff won't be a problem as the caliphate can just use its vast resources to help you out. Until then just focus on making your country better, a bit of expansion and keeping the Christians at bay! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Titles
So, who like tha Caliph title?Saamwiil (talk) 21:59, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I like it. Also are we going to try push onwards with this plan a bit quicker? Lurk is building up the new Mongolian threat to us so we need to unify fairly soon. Are you & the Mamluks ready to unify soon? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

No. I feel comfortable with 10 years. I need to build up my army. Also note, Georgia might be a problem, they have shown intrest in Trebizond, which is in Anatolia... Saamwiil (talk) 20:46, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is the sort of time length I had in mind so that's fine, I was thinking like we were gonna be another 20 years or something, 10 is okay.

We're going to need to invade Georgia anyway, but the Georgian Kingdom collapsed into anarchy by 1466 and fragmented into three independent Kingdoms and five semi-independent principalities in OTL so they are quite weaker than us so they shall not be a problem. After all in OTL by the beginning of the 16th century, the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire subjugated the eastern and western regions of Georgia, respectively. Anyway just another war for the caliphate to win. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:45, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, should I start souring our relations with you? Saamwiil (talk) 21:10, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:41, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I was planning to wait for you all to get more unified like you wanted, but I was afraid that if I waited, the Chinese would integrate the Oirats faster and then be able to annex all of the central Asians. Godeng and Mamash won't extend their empire that far west until 1470 or later though, it will take them a while to subjugate the Golden Horde and the remains of the Temurids. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:28, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is enough for me; I just have to take as much Marinid and Zayyanid land as possible and marry a Marinid to a Hashemite if possible, as well as land said Hashemite in the throne. Fed (talk) 00:34, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking of making the Zayyanids and the Marinids pledging alliegence to the Caliphate. Both are allies. I think also we should postpone major warfare in Tunisia until '65, when I'll take a lead. I've been working on my military, so we could get more land. Saamwiil (talk) 00:46, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, one of yyou guys should convince the Tutonic order that the pope doesn't care for them anymore, and make them Muslim. I think it is logical, Brandenburg declared war on the Teutonic Knights and the Papal states didn't even show support. Saamwiil (talk) 21:16, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, the Mamluk Sultanete will have to give up 3 cities for the common good of the Calipate. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, each should be an independant state/capital. However this is for the future.

Also, Fed, Muhmmad(pbuh) didn't have any sons that live, he did however have 6 sons that died in infancy. So give me feed back! Saamwiil (talk) 22:37, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I never said he did... Anyways, I really doubt that the Teutonics would become Muslim. And yes, I'm willing to give up Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem. Fed (talk) 22:57, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I was meaning on the long term. Saamwiil (talk) 23:20, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I would replace "Sultan of Sultans" with "Khalifa and Mahdi of Dar al-Islam, Protector of the Holy Cities Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem" or somesuch since _______ of ________s is a Persian term, and Sultan is an Arabian one. Fed (talk) 02:46, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

We're assuming. One of the inicial 3 might be of Persian origins. And I already have Khalifa in its English form, "Calip of the Muslim World"Saamwiil (talk) 10:28, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

It's not that you're adding a Persian title, it's that you're adding a Persian form to an Arabic title, which is a bit anachronistic. Fed (talk) 02:43, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

I see. I was just following the lead of the Ottomans. Saamwiil (talk) 03:03, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

1965 and leta man
Are you planning a revolt lead by Aq Qoyunlu instead of a war? Saamwiil (talk) 23:23, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Government
So hey guys, I thought it was close enough so we should start being more precise about our government I have made the following two pages so that we can refine it:
 * Imperial Courte of Muslims
 * The Constitution

Discussion
Surely the constitution would mostly be just sharia law? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:30, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's the law. The "Constitution" is a mear treaty. Saamwiil (talk) 01:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

HRE expansion
Okay, we've got to start quickening up the unification; the HRE is going all Crusader on the whole world, and Russia is starting to attack the Mongol hordes all around. We'll be up in the middle of a Crusade and thus in a huge disadvantage in our huge expansion frenzy if all of Europe keeps moving around. Fed (talk) 01:53, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, do you want me to marry next year? Saamwiil (talk) 01:56, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Rather in two years' time, so that I can finish the civil war and take Cairo first, as well as a year of consolidation. Fed (talk) 02:05, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Our war with the Hafsids should end in 73.Saamwiil (talk) 02:15, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually in 70. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:23, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Unless there are any other problems, I could once again join in and declare war on the Hafsids, and unify the Maghreb once and for all. Fed (talk) 00:33, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, its fine. I'm able to take 24% of their territory but only take 3 so I can show friendship. Then they pledge alliedgence to the DME. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:38, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I have a question: why are all of you coming in to help the Crimeans of all people, but are letting the Ottomans die? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:11, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I decided to, Oman also did so bcause it's my vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:57, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well I was at war when the Ottoman war started but now I'm free to help them. I'll send some military aid their too, as my forces go to help the Crimeans. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:45, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

The ottoman Empire asked for alliances all muslim nations and for help against the treacherous and backstabbing Christians (Talk)dean

Hm. Can't this war. It would be better to loose this war for your nation to better integrate into the empire. Also, I'd like to take an offensive war, not a defensive one. Later, my military build up will really come in handy. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:41, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

But my question is why did you all decide to defend the Crimeans against the Europeans instead? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:55, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone, check the imperial courte for the latest issues in our new state. Always changing. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:01, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

We've begun
Shall do. Also have the Caliph agree to the demands of Shaybah's Emir. They're not much and its just a formality to make it seem more realistic having Shaybah pledge allegiance as now they have more of a reason to do so. Woo, its all coming together now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:47, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Also shall do. It would be nice/cool if we all posted as "DME province of XXXX", give it a more unified feel. I also volunteer to roleplay the Caliph these first five years, then Von, then Fed, then Dean. I propose this Caliph live 23 years, any objection? Saamwiil, the Humble 01:31, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well rather than DME isn't it "the Hashemite Caliphate province of XXXX"?

Also Dean seems to have left our group. Shall we just conquer the Ottoman's then? He seems quite against the idea of having to share power and being subordinate to the Caliph. We could try to convince him but if he still refuses to join back, then what? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:55, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if he refuses to join the Caliphate and the Mahdinate (we are still having a Mahdi, aren't we?) then we'll have to conquer the Turk by force.

BTW, have all player-controlled Muslim nations but the Ottomans joined the Caliphate? Fed (talk) 20:15, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

the Ottoman Empire will join the caliphate on 1 condition, the condition is that all conquest in Europe are ceded to the Ottoman Empire and that we start a holy war against a Christian nations for revenge. (DeanSims: Talk)

Are we still going to make a Mahdinate or will we stay with the Caliph? If we do, I imagine we'll need to start the events and the "beast" soon (as Alodia I imagine I have the responsibility of reporting a few of those) so that the Mahdi can rise as soon as Marwan dies off. Fed (talk) 22:43, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, we're having 3 caliphs first, this is the first of the three. He will die in about 20 years.

Oh, alright. So three caliphs and then the Mahdi? Fed (talk) 22:46, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Enough time to do Harb ul-Muqadisa, (Holy War)! Von, you should focus on India and Africa, Shaybah expands into Africa while Oman tries to rise Muslims in India convert them to Islam. I and Fed will focus on our military to hold back the Christians, and to spread Islam through Northern and Western Africa and Europe.

We have to have the Hafsids and Zayyanids take over Morocco and Granada first, and try to get Mali or Songhai to join us so we get a good hold in the territory (since they're NPC, whoever holds the Caliphate at the time is also who controls them, right?) While that happens, I believe we should take over Anatolian states as quickly as we can to prepare any attack against the Otts and the Balkans. Fed (talk) 00:00, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

So, I am not an expert on Islamic prophecy, dos the Gog/Magog part require the Dual Khanate to begin the war? If you want them to attack one of you (don't worry, it will happen in six years and they will lose), Aq Qoyonlu is going to be the ones to get attacked I'm afraid. If you don't need them to attack you, I won't. (if it wasn't obvious that the two conquerors, Mamash and Godeng, were supposed to be that part of the prophecy, I don't know what to say...)LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to use Shaybah to expand into the black areas of Arabia. Then a small bit of colonization in Africa but not much. Oman was going to increase its colonies along the East African seaboard and try to get some of those states to convert and join.

Also seeing that Our Brave Old World who controlled Bahmani said he was interested in the DME but now left before actually joining, I think we might be able to get Bahmani to join the DME fairly easy as if the player was still here they would have joined. Then we use Bahmani to expand from in India... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:36, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Made a Caliphate page. Of course, anyone's open to edit and add as they wish, as well as correct mistakes. Fed (talk) 00:56, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The arabic for Hasemite Caliphate is wrong, but I'll fix it.

Perhaps add a map of the Caliphate but with the regional boundaries for each of the provinces in it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Persians and other ethnicities
Hey Von, I was wondering if you could make an event which drives more Turks by mongol horde into Circassia and northern Aq Qoyunlu.

Also, the Muslim world as of now is operating like seperate factions working together. We need to slightly more unify it by encouraging immigration. This would also help bring down the risk of a Iranian revolt. -unsigned post by Saamwiil

Letting a bunch of Turks come charging into Iran and letting them steal the Iranians' land is only going to make the Iranians angrier at your government and make them want to revolt. Anything which could be seen as an outright attempt to annihilate their culture is going to cause them to revolt. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:54, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

What about the Syriacs/Copts/Syrian Turks? They've been moving into Mesopotamia for a while, so it wouldn't look as an attempt to do anything, and they're as civilised as Persians, so they wouldn't be afraid of barbarians around... Fed (talk) 02:58, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I also want Araabs to immigrate... As for the Turkes Persian land, they wouldn't. Generals would be rewarded with territory, soldiers would go to mostly Turkish districts, or become lower class in Persian majority areas. I plan for the same with Arabs. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:02, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Syriacs and whatnot aren't moving into Mesopotamia, that's where they've lived for literally thousands of years. They also are a tiny minority.

Any attempt to destroy the Iranian culture (and yes, spreading them all around the middle east and north Africa so they'll not be a majority in any area is an attempt at destruction) will be met with revolt, the Iranians historically resisted the numerous efforts to destroy their culture for the thousands of years they have existed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:12, September 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean the Syriacs that have been living everywhere, I meant those that have risen in Syria and spread to Mesopotamia. I know the Syriacs have been living there, look at Saint Muhammad for God's sake! xD Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also, historically, immigration failed to destroy the Iranian culture. The Arabs tried moving in when the Caliphate ruled over them for almost three centuries, the Turks tried it when they ruled over them for two and a half hundred years, the Mongols tried in their brief rule when they came in, Timur brought in armies of Turks and massacred entire Iranian cities and he still failed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:16, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't plan on destroying them. Only not make them as dominant. Maybe like 1/3 to each ethnic group, not specifically in any area. Over a long period of time. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:33, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really even want the Turkes to be dominant. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try and reduce the Iranian strong majority areas to a fraction of their OTL areas? Like maybe reduce them to Isfahan, Fars, and the areas to the east. They would revolt trying to take it all, but then you could force them into the smaller area and the rest of the Iranians would immigrate. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

How about we just give the Iranian's their own Province? The Qoyunlu will still rule most of Persia but this way we stop them from revolting. You can still control both nations and it gives us more allies too! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to have the Iranians be independent right now, you can wait about 100 years if you want to drag it out, so they would still be part of the Caliphate until the second half of the sixteenth century. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:57, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Russia
FYI, both Muscovy and Novgorod are behind you. Partially. Somewhat. You don't need to worry about us attacking you. Unless you attack us fiirst.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:14, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

No more wars under Marwan guys, besides the Mongols. I think Qoyunlu will be maxed out. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:07, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Could someone else just not start a war?

Also I think we really need a map of the Caliphate and its current provinces so we can visualize this stuff better (well so I can visualize it better), but I may end up making one later today if I finish my other work for the day.

Also I was thinking since we have each province in the algorithm, what if we split up the bigger provinces? Not only would that please local rulers and make us more democratic but we get more allies in the algorithm. I'm saying this because a war against the HRE is going to be very dependent on the amount of allies we got. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:54, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am fully aware. I was planning on dividing Qoyunlu in th south a small bit. And we could do Hejaz as an independant kingdom. It would be better administratively, smaller revolts, which works well for me. The algorithm also works. Saamwiil, the Humble 11:59, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

There's loopholes that Circassia could use for Islamic law on assimilation. Anyhow, as you guys might now, we have the right to annex Georgia, but haven't done so completely. They'll be joining if thyou guys are okay, and they are okay. Trebizond will become a vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 12:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

For example, Christians are bound to their laws not Islamic laws. This practice was practiced (repitition ;) ) by Muhammad (pbuh) himself, if I got history down right. The Jews betrayed him, and they were subject to their own law, not Islamic.

Well I agree and disagree with the whole genocide thing here, but either way looks like its going to happen. Anyway I'm completely fine with Georgia becoming part of the Caliphate, we won so they should be annexed by us. If he doesn't want to then he could always go and find another country to rule. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:24, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do believe that they should rule themselves internally and have the rights of Muslim provinces except for voting on the Imperial Court, since they're Christian and everything. Also, since the Khans annexed Crimea, that means that they're about to strike on either the Rus' or us pretty soon. Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. Perhaps this is just where we put all of the Christians who refuse to become Muslim? You know and keep the rest of the DME nearly all Muslim. Basically like using Georgia like a "Nazi-Ghetto" state but for the Christians. This way we don't have to kill them and they are put in one place to rule themselves and to not bother the Muslims. This might end up causing more revolts though if we concentrate them all in one place but hey, we can always crush a little revolt. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK, on the subject of splitting up big nations, I don't want you to break the DME nations into a ton of tiny provinces, each giving a +3 to the algorithm so you get a huge bonus. Splitting a few would be fine, but if the number starts getting ridiculous you'll have to go the way of the HRE with only the player ones contributing to wars. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah don't worry, I certainly wasn't planning on going into city state size states. It was more for national groups being able to rule themselves and to split up some of the bigger states like the Mamluk state into more manageable sized provinces. Shaybah and Oman shall not be getting split up for example. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:20, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Secret Novgorod Diplomacy to the DME
[Secret Novgorodian Diplomacy]Yes, Russia(or at least Novgorod) is getting annoyed and find the khanates to be an increasing neusance(and as I understand to the Islamic Caliphate aswell), so lets fight a common foe, just rip them apart, in say a combined war, we can take the north, while you take the south and we singn a non-agression agreement where we will not take sides in wars against each other unless you impede on the rights of Orthodox(NOT CATHOLIC) Christians, and we impede on rights of (insert denomination/all) muslims.(i.e. tolerate that specific faith and allow the members of said faith to be part of the governement and run things...). This agreement will go both ways. Message me or on the novgorod talk page if you are uncertain about something. You know what they say, an enemy of my enemy is my friend Let's end the mongol threat once and for all-Lx (leave me a message) 21:17, September 28, 2012 (UTC)