Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Colonies and Collapsing Mother Countries
I was wondering if there should be some rule about what happens to a colony when the mother nation collapses. For example, Japan still has a global empire, despite the fact that Joseon and Vietnam are invading it from both sides. Should the colonies be reclaimed by the natives, become idependent, or be snatched up by other colonial powers once the main nation goes down? LurkerLordB 19:46, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should a Mother country collapse like japan, the colonies should break off and depending on whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have not accepted colonists culture (return territory back to original state), whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have accepted colonists culture (and vice versa (become an independant nation either aligned or un-aligned with the mother country)) and whether they are mainly inhabited by colonists with colonists culture (will remain by mother countries side until the end) appropriate dealings should be exacted, for instance a colony heavily populated by japanese with a heavy japanese culture won't suddenly become say dutch again or won't turn back into unpopulated lands. Kunarian 20:05, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

In real life, there was no "rules" about this topic. Usually the colonies just go into limbo. When Napoleon invaded the Netherlands, suprisingly many of the Dutch colonies continued as normal, and the Dutch regained control later. Should Vietnam and Joseon capture Japan, the colonies become independent. Because of colonization's extent during this time (which didn't affect social structure too much, unless the colonies are Spanish style encomienda states, in which they would be fully independent, although this is not the case with Japan), the colonies would probably collapse into weak quasi-independent duchies overlapping with local countries. Or Vietnam/Joseon can capture the colonies, but they have to be allowed to by colonial restrictions. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:31, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Edits
Guys, I thought it was clear enough that anything on the page preceding the actual game is to be kept presentable at all times and in most cases only to be touched by mods, unless you're signing up. Don't post personal comments in the area or remove anything, especially the map. Feel free to upload your own maps as long as they are in the correct format, but don't remove the key or anything. We want to keep the game presentable for possible new recruits, and I can't be on at all times to make sure this is kept. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:19, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, just didn't know where to submit maps. Kunarian 01:21, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

You were right to upload it in the correct name, but you don't need to do anything else. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:10, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I want join
Hellow! I want join this game (as France) but i don't understand the colonisation system. Can somebody explain it to me? Thanks ^^ --Galaguerra1 02:28, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

We already have someone playing as France. Would you like to play as another nation? Just look at the map included at the top of this page and see if you like any of the other, unused nations.

Yank 02:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, in the list of nations in Europe, France's user has been removed due to inactivity, so you can play as France. The map just hasn't been updated. (France and Burgundy both need to be recolored light grey) LurkerLordB 02:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Map problems
OK, when Kunarian uploaded the new map, he forgot to add a bunch of stuff to the map (such as all of Russia's expansion for the past decade, and all of the expansion of Ricasolia on Cuba, the division of Japan, and Hungary's civil war is over now). I don't want to seem insulting to him, but the past two maps are both messed up and now have numerous revisions because he wasn't paying attention to what other people had posted. I think the last two maps he made should be deleted and then recreated so that they are accurate without having to wait more than a week for the wikia images to auto-update themselves. LurkerLordB 16:18, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think he was trying to do the entire map. Rules prohibit non-moderators (or non-mapmakers for that matter) from editing countries other than their own. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:50, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your complaints but as DK said I was just trying to do my Venetian moves. Kunarian 18:57, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't i said that if i missed somtehing you could just point that out?anyway, as LurkerLordB said, you could upload it with other name.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:14, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be a good idea next time to upload it as a different name and not use it as the official map if you are just going to show your parts instead of everything else so no one is confused. LurkerLordB 19:07, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

However, this part of him editing only that and trying to post it as map of the game (he could have gotten a other title, instead of using the template.matter of fact, the color the he puts to venice in the map doesn't even match the key.) without any updates... {C}i talked to him that if i made a mistake in Venice's territory he could talk to me about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

China also captured a fair amount of Guatemala, Honduras, and the southern Yucatan. CrimsonAssassin 16:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * My version of the map has this updates.but the display of the upside of the main page has his map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I just want to point out that we need to remove the colour for the Kelts from the key. What I don't understand is that the Kelts haven't been playing for centuries and they are still mentioned on the key. And the fact that Switzerland/Burgundy is still on the map even though the player quit months ago.

Yank 19:01, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I still say that deleting the map entirely and then uploading a new one will be better due to the horrendous lag that wikia has. LurkerLordB 00:50, September 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Leave it be for now. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:40, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

In-Game Discussion of 1660

 * I have repeatedly said that New Lithuania controls ALL territory south of the Joseon colony. Why does the map maker repeatedly ignore that long thin island to the west of the other Phillipine islands?
 * Calm down. That wasn't Collie or me who uploaded the map. And also, you should really try to learn the name of the island before trying to make your case. Just saying. It makes you seem unworthy of owning it. -DK
 * It's name is Palawan. I think I asked for it by name once, but no one listened.
 * Okay, found it in an earlier post. Sorry about that, it will be on the next map.
 * Fixed it.
 * Also, Sweden annexed East and West Doitsuchou.
 * Also Nippon is the vassal state of Vietnam, not Joseon. Why is it coloured in Joseon's purple instead of Vietnam's blue?
 * Wait.Kunarian made the map, and in my version it is still in gray because i don't know how it is gonna be divided. can somebody inform me what territories go to each country in the division of japan?
 * Actually, in the new map, the southern part of Japan appears to be of a different shard of purple than either Vietnam or Joseon.
 * That's not the point. I look at the map and the colour for Nippon looks more like Joseon's than Vietnam's. Shouldn't a Vietnamese vassal state have a colour simmilar to Vietnam's? It worked that way for New Lithuania, so why not Nippon?
 * Its supposed to be the Nipponese Vassal of Vietnam. However I could not find the map colours and so tried to improvise and came up with something that is almost indistiguishable from Joseon and hard to see as related to Vietnam much to my discontent.
 * Where is located your Nuovo Venetia colony? there are two russian colonies in north america.
 * Its below the most southern north american Russian colony.

(-unsigned)

In-game discussion is okay on the page, even though it breaks the flow, but if you put in on here, make sure that you put whose post it is in reply to, and what year. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * In the archive last time some guy was posting a bunch of the stuff taken from the page onto the talk page to try to clear it up. I just thought that such a large coversation (more than just 1-3 lines) was taking up space. It related to the map problems, so I just moved it under that. BTW, how do you archive a talk page? The little number is there but red, and all the stuff is still on this page. LurkerLordB


 * Yeah, Oerwinde. He's the chief of the map games, but I figured the conversations didn't bother me too much. I appreciate you trying to undertake the work of the mods but for now I would prefer if you would just kind of learn what's going on first. And to answer your question, archiving is done manually via copy/paste. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:15, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Chinese Wars
Excuse me for the delays, but I finally got time to finish the two algorithms for the Chinese wars:

{C}

To CrimsonAssassin, there is a program called ImageJ which is useful for calculating the amount of pixels, to make it easier for you to deal with such a large amount of new territory. Also, out of 2,539 territory gained, Hanthawaddy is going to take 1/4, or 635 pixels as part of the deal, leaving you with 1904. Feel free to use these pixels in any way you want. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:30, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take Guatemala and Honduras. CrimsonAssassin 16:16, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for a treaty. It would make the game more interesting then doling out OTL countries, and it gives you a bit of extra territory if you want it. I have the Mosquito Coast and Panama, so I'm fine. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:55, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds great. CrimsonAssassin 17:35, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Can I Join?
Hey i'am new to this wiki but I know Crimson irl. He will show me around the site. Do you mind if I join as Japan?Eldwolf 16:53, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Go for it, man. CrimsonAssassin 16:55, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Be aware that Vietnam and Joseon are in a war against Japan and Vietnam installed a vassal state on Southern Japan.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:01, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not at war with Japan. Japan is dead as a country, as it had collapsed into a Sengoku-type situation. I am at war with the states occuping former Japanese territory. The war is mostly over, as only a thin strip of territory is uncontrolled.

Yank 02:14, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

new nation?
since I can't be Japan i would like to Spain if thats ok? also i'am not trying to be a dick but your really should show Japan as being owned not as a unused country.Eldwolf 15:42, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Dude don't worry, play spain, its a good and interesting choice. I find it annoying that they didn't even try and roleplay you out but then again at least you can have your way in spain. Kunarian 16:20, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the agreement between Joseon and Vietnam for the division of Japan was made not long ago, and before that, it was in civil disarray.And, the list of nations is largely outdated. {C}P.S. - Spain also is on civil disarray.but this doesn't matter.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:18, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

The reason it is shown as being unused is because of a huge confusion due to a mistake in uploading the map earlier. Hopefully by the next map-time this tiring saga of the map troubles will be over. LurkerLordB 21:35, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Cuban Crusade
So, should an algorithim be made for the Cuban crusade? I assume that the Mamluks would still be in contact with their colony (although they may not be able to supply much aid due to recently being in civil disarray and badly losing a war with the Ottomans. LurkerLordB 23:57, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Basically. I'll do it this weekend if I have time or you can do it. Yeah, some Mamluks would still there but seeing that the Sultanate is now several small states, the numbers might be more limited. Incidentally, does anyone own/have heard of FileMaker Pro? It's something I've been using to make the algorithms easier to calculate. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:10, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

The motive for Naples is religious by the way. The one for the Mamluks will differ depending on whether or not it is Naples vs. Colony or Naples vs. Mamluk empire. Vs colony the Mamluks will fight in self defense, Vs. Empire it will be political or economic wish to retain control over the colony. I can't post again until this war is over, because it has dragged on for too long. LurkerLordB 01:48, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

It will be "Mamluk settlers," not the actual Mamluk Empire fighting. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:10, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

The New Algorithim should be added to the Rules page so it can be more accesable. LurkerLordB 04:18, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

For the sake of posting, I am going to assume that Naples has occupied the Mamluk colony, as there have been no algorithims and this war should have ended several years ago. If the algorithim turns against me, I will state that a revolt broke out later. LurkerLordB 01:31, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm
Could you show me how you do it on a website like that so I can do it for AvAr? Thanks! PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 01:03, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese-Irish War
I've postponed the start of the war until 1686, which is the earliest I can make a new colony anyway. I do believe that the resulting twenty-three years of military expansion would make my victory much more certain than it would if I did it now.

Yank 03:23, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, usually we don't delete talk messages but since it was just you and me I will allow it. Also, Hanthawaddy can offer support via Iceland and nearby places. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:46, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Issues With the New Map
I have a problem with the new map. Nippon is simply not big enough. At least the last map showed that Nippon controlled former Japanese territory up to the Edo line, even if it was in the wrong colour. The Nipponese should have control of the territory up to the Sendai line. It's reasonable, as most of the Japanese people think that Nippon is a Japanese state, and not an invading force like Joseon. So that they will not resist Nippon the same way they do to Joseon.

--Yank 15:57, September 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * in my current edition of the 1665 map (already on the making) i extended yout territory to the Sendai line, but, it is a straight line?i want to make sure that i won't make a mistake giving more territory to Nippon on the east coast.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:02, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want it to be perfectly straight. I want there to be something of a curve in it, as the line was surveyed human surveyers, and so there's going to be imperfections just like any other border.

Yank 16:14, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

No one conquers half of Japan in 5 years. Not Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and not Minamoto Yoritomo. There isn't that kind of power imbalance. Just spread it out. The Japanese are in civil disarray and they got guns. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:01, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Also sweden has had control of West Doitsuchou for a while but it hasn't been on the map. Scandinator

Try twenty years (or so). The Vietnamese have aided the Nipponese regain their territory on and off since 1641. So it's not so implausible.

Yank 02:33, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm Poland/Hungary vs. Moldavia
I resolved to make one because Poland just left a war with the former government of Hungary. {C}I don't know if it's correct, because they say something about 1.5 if the country isn't in full unity, and i didn't understand how to apply it in a algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:32, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Moldavia
Total:29
 * Next to the location of war:4
 * Strength:3 (Moldavia)
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Life or death:10
 * Chance (random): 7
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5
 * Participating on war:10

Poland
Total:32
 * Close to the location of war: 3
 * Strength: 6 (Poland, Hungary)
 * Greater population: 2
 * Expansion of military:2
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Owned area for 0 years:0
 * Chance: 4
 * Editcount:1793
 * Time: 16:55
 * 1x6x5x5 = 150
 * 1793/150 = 11,953333333333333333333333333333 x pi = 37,5525042
 * Participating on war:10

Result

 * 32/62 = 0,516129032
 * 0,516129032-0,5 = 0,016129032
 * 0,016129032 x2 = 0,032258064 - 2,22%
 * Area of Moldavian territory:1883 px.

Polish victory. Poland is entitled to 3,22% of Moldavian territory, or 60 px (3000 sq km).

Venice's extra Colony
Venice seems to have an extra colony, since according to the External territories page, they have founded three colonies within a couple decades, when the rules say you can only have 2 per 50 years. Where did this colony come from? LurkerLordB 21:39, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

I have already explained this, one was conquered not founded. Terra di Calore was taken from Hungary the other two were esstablished by Venice therefore it is allowed. As the first colony I established was Nuovo Venetia in 1660, I will have to wait until 1710 to establish a new colony. Kunarian 21:43, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, okay then. Sorry, I didn't see the first explanation. LurkerLordB 21:43, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, problem sorted. Besides Venice had no plans beyond these colonies so it would be a while before they set out again anyway. Kunarian 21:48, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Note you can't conquer a colony and expempt it from the 50 year rule. However, everyone is allowed a free colony. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:22, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

How can conquered colonies not be exempt from the 50 year rule? I didn't establish them, I simply took them over. So what does that mean, that someone who established two colonies isn't allowed to conquer colonies? Kunarian 00:11, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

What he is saying is that you can estabilish a new colony already in 1702, and not in 1710, since Terra Di Calore technically was the first colony, although it was conquered from another nation's colony.this means that Terra Di Calore enters within the 50 year rule, so you can estabilish a new colony 50 years after the "founding" (in this case, capture) of Terra Di Calore.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:06, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

How many times do I have to repeat? Towards the beginning of the game, everyone got a free colony as a gift. So now everyone who joins has a free colony, that doesn't count for the 50 year rule. But it doesn't matter whether you conquer or found a colony, the 50 year rule still applies. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:49, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Altair & HRR
Since Altair, the guy controlling the Holy Roman Republic (at least, I think it was him) has been gone for quite some time, are the former papal states now "open" again to players or expansion within? LurkerLordB 21:59, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

By 1670 if theres no sign of Altair000, the Papal States will reemerge. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Venetian - Vietnamese War
Rolled back.

Venetian - Vietnam war talk (in character)

 * The Vietnamese-Irish War hasn't started yet. I'm delaying the start of the war to 1686 so that I have a better chance of winning. But make no mistake. I intend to capture either all or most of Ireland for their barbaric actions. The fact that you, as good Christians, can support what is effectively government-sanctioned murder is disgusting.
 * Keep in mind that Venice will and can defend its Christian ally, Ireland. It won't matter much more in 1686 due to the fact that by then Venice will be stronger than it is now by an even larger factor and Ireland will be then almost untouchable. Also these times are not ones of moral questioning by far off nations that have no right to be interferring in such distant lands against established nations. The Venetians will defend Irish soveriegnty, tradition and christianity to the last man.
 * Vietnam is Christian as well in this timeline.
 * I know hoever, the Doge believes that Vietnam is not a true christian state as true christian states do not attack other christian states, its also another reason why he looks down upon the invasion of Milan by the last Doge. He also believes that Vietnam should not be recognised as a true christian state as it started practicing recently unlike Ireland or Venice who have done so for more that a millenia.
 * Typical Catholic nonsense. Believing that you are superior simply because your enemy is of a different sect. You over-estimate your power. The Vietnamese will not invade Venice directly, but they will not be cowed by them. Furansuchou, Vietnam's enclave in Europe, is a fortress not so easily penetrated. By the time war occurs their defenses would be so much more formidable. I pray you lose this war, as it would teach you a lesson in humility you clearly need. And I suggest you read up on conflicts such as the Thrity Years War, which was "waged" with Christians on both sides. And why would a "true Christian state" tolerate what Ireland is doing to every shipwrecked sailor discovered on their shores? Even Venetian sailors have become victims of Irish butchery.
 * The Venetians will teach you not to think so highly of yourself. And your statements against the Catholic nations, I hope that they will asist me in our war against you, to prove which are the true nations of God.

'''Remeber, I had no quarell with you. YOU chose to stick your nose where it didn't belong, and intervened in favor of a nation of murderers. They killed your sailors and you still help them. Your doge is either evil or insane.'''

Yank 20:15, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''My people do not judge the morals of a nation by the criminals who abuse its governments leniency and gifts of freedom. We judge it by the governments who act criminal when they are asked to be moral. {C}Kunarian 20:29, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''These aren't just a pack of thugs. They are a pack of murderers sponsored by the Irish government . It's the Irish who are acting criminal, and the Vietnamese who are justified. '''

Yank 20:39, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''There is no evidence that the Irish Government is sponsering them, they simply aren't combating it. And it is silly that you would declare war over a few criminals actions and try and represent them as the entire Irish nation. Also the Doge thinks that this is just a Vietnamese ploy to gain territory in europe. Kunarian 20:46, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Then your doge is an absolute fool. Ireland is a blank nation. That means it can been "filled in" by anyone who wants to do so. And they are a pack of thugs and criminals. You had no business meddling in my affairs. Why can't you stay of of my business? There are plenty of nations that you can ally with. '''

Yank 20:52, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Just because you say one thing doesn't mean its absolute, I like Ireland and can fill it in too with things, just because you said criminal, doesn't mean that there can't be an alternate side to the story. Besides you are and have been meddling in the affairs of europe which the Venetians hate more than anything, especially the Doge. This was never about allies but imperialism and the way that some nations do need oppose it. Kunarian 20:57, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Europe had been imperialist for centuries. I wanted to bring Imperialism back to the continent that spawned it. And you forget that you did not type one single word even implying a relationship between Ireland and Venice. You just stuck your nose where it didn't belong. Your behavior is really starting to piss me off.'''

Yank 21:03, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''I established that there were both Irish Citizens in Venice and Irish Mercenaries in the army, and good ones at that, I also established that we had limited trade with Ireland, clearly the Venetian Government is on good terms with the Irish Government and the Venetian people are on good terms with the Irish people. Venice is involved trade wise with almost every major and minor soveriegn nation it can be, Venice is the trade capital of the world at the moment due to its huge comercial fleet, so Venice naturally wants to defend its interests. Also the Venetian Doge hates the fact that nations he considers non-christian are being given free will to colonise lands they have no natural right to. Kunarian 21:13, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''You're willing to overlook the fact that the Irish government has at least encouraged the murder of Venetian sailors? And for the last time "Non-Catholic" does not mean "Non-Christian"'''

Yank 21:16, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''There may be factions within that encourage it like there are extremist factions within all our governments however the main front of the government does not support it nor look down on it, it is neutral. And Non-Catholic does not mean Non-Christian, however Veitnams actions could hardly be called Christian, the pope would look down on such heavy violence proposed against another Christian nation. As far as Venice is concerned Vietnam should be Excommunicated. Kunarian 21:20, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''How can Vietnam be excommunicated when they aren't even Catholics! They have their own Christian Church to follow. The only non-Christian behavior is done by Ireland. This isn't about religion. It's about you being an oppportunistic greedy idiot who used any half-baked he could get his hands on to steal another user's territory. All over a country that ceased to be a factor in international relations centuries ago!'''

Yank 21:30, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Excommunication is not limited to Catholics and excommunication has other penalties other than simply being shunned by the Church, plus the fact that Vietnam does not follow the Pope is more reason for Venice to fight agianst it in favour of Ireland. This is about a number of factors, not just territory, besides, I would seperate the territory and give some back to natives (eg: South Afica, South America), some to nations (eg: France, Spain) and keep only a little territory for myself (eg: Carribean Islands). Also you made it a major international factor by planning a war agianst it on such a scale. Kunarian 21:37, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''I just wanted to neutralize you, as I had no intentions of actually fighting you. But apparently the best I could do was to get the others to not jump on the "We Hate Vietnam" bandwagon. '''

Yank 21:50, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Then why not let this war go through, then we can rebuild relations between the west and east. Because the Catholic nations don't want anything other than Catholics in Europe preferably and so they haven't jumped on a "We hate Vietnam" bandwagon but a "We prefer Catholics" Bandwagon. Kunarian 21:53, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Besides, I had no interest in Italian territory. Ireland was to be the full extent of Vietnamese imperialism in Europe. '''

Yank 21:54, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Problem is Venice doesn't know that and I don't even know that now. Ireland could have been the final prize or the first stepping stone and still could be either. If you want I can give you the demands and concessions on each side so that you can get a view of what will essentailly happen in the end and whether you want to renegotiate it. Kunarian 21:58, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

Algerian War
Putting up a section for a war the Vietnamese and the French have started in the Ziyanid Sultanate in Algeria.

Yank 22:39, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

The war algorithm must be done for a mod or I can do it? --Galaguerra1 17:43, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

if you be impartial and knows how to do it, you can. read the rules in how to make a algorythm on the top of the page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:33, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I prefer that a mod does it :P --Galaguerra1 20:31, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I've more or less pulled back Vietnam's support of the war to material support only.

Yank 02:17, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden

 * Location: 3 near the location of the war
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden, Joseon, Venice, Milan: 12
 * Military Expansion: 11
 * Territorial Expansion: -1
 * Motive is religious: 7
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 445/90*pi = 1553.34303% → 4
 * Editcount: 468 - 23 = 445
 * Time: 2:59 → 2*5*9=90

Total: 42
 * Has owned the area for 151+ years: -5

Russia

 * Location: 3 near the location of the war
 * Russia/ Two Vassals, Hanthawaddy, Lithuania, China, France: 21
 * Greater Population: 2
 * Military Expansion: 1.5
 * Territorial Expansion: -8.5
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 708/4*pi = 55606.1899% → 8
 * Editcount: 708
 * Time: 11:40 → 1*1*4 = 4

Total: 42
 * Has owned the area for 151+ years: -5

Result
Draw. Any additional concessions may be made by treaty.

Discussion
I made a few changes off the top of my head. Note that if the war includes Swedish soil, which is not up to you, it will change the location up a bit. Wait for him to reply before putting the total. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:07, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I had to change it a bit, since China declared support for Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:21, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden should also have Venetian support btw Kunarian 21:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Can I see the math for whoever did chance? Is Russia's chance 0 or to be determined? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:52, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Russia actualy did expand its military, It did check my posts, for the last 3-4 I have been updating it and for the past 15 years there should be some more updating the navy and the sort...and I still dont understand why its -5 points for controling the area for 151+ years I would have thought it waould have been better becaus eit gave time for the natives of the area to accept the governement and Russia(being Russia) will have alot of that going on...(I just want an explination for the -5)

Wait, the -5 was intentional? I thought that he just accidentaly hit - instead of + in front of the five. It does make no sense that ruling for a long time would hurt you. LurkerLordB 00:48, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

My point Exactly, and even if it werea typo would somebodyu please clarify that.LxCaucassus 01:06, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Now that I think about it the entire control scale doesn't make sence. Come to think of it, things like this only come to mind(pardon the language, couldnt figure out another way to say it like i actualy wanted to), When your ass is on the line, and how is my chance 0? i dont think thats possible.LxCaucassus 01:21, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Minus 5 is accurate. The reason is to simulate the natural rise and fall cycle of empires. But the chance is at 0 until you respond to the war. It is possible, but there's only a 10% chance it will happen. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:28, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * but -5 isnt realy realistic... having an area for that long shouldnt hurt you. at all...and thats not a realistic scale...empires last for 4-5 centuries in their prime(usualy). 150 years shouldnt logicaly be bad to the people... and I think that part should be replaced by stability.LxCaucassus 01:40, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I calculated it and it was 0. I'll post the calculation. Scandinator

I was looking over Lx's past posts, and he did expand his navy 2 turns recently, so his score should be 2 higher. Still would lose, but slightly better. LurkerLordB 01:35, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Actually those turns were combined with expansion so being the nice guy I am, I will give Russia 1 more point Scandinator


 * His edit count was 708, but it looks like that didn't change the result. It is important to use Special:EditCount and subtract the contributions that occurred in between. Also, this is for Collie, did we ever decide whether to use the full time (11:40:45) or just the hour and minute (11:40)? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:41, September 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't it the opponents edit count????Scandinator


 * Yeah but his current edit count is 732 and he has made 24 edits since then, so that makes 708. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:48, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I found where I told Collie from now on we would use 4-digit time. Which I recalculated and actually that brings chance to 9. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:46, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, I expanded military more than 1 time in the past 15 years(updated navy at least 2 times and military expansion for the past years or whatnot). Sorry if IUm being a bit exessive, it just hasnt been the greatest day in the worldLxCaucassus 01:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I checked adn its actualy 2... I thought I had wrote more expand military... oh well. and -5 still doesnt make sense. hanthawady also helped Russia. so it should only be a 1 point victory.LxCaucassus 02:02, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well, three turns were used both for military and expansion, so I'm going to count them as 1/2 each. We've applied -5 consistently since the creation of the algorithm. We may eventually phase it out for stability, but if you disagreed with that part of the algorithm, you should have spoken up earlier, back when it helped you win against the Mughals. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:10, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Any more objections? Seeing that this algorithm has been highly controversial, we'll give it until 0:00 UTC tomorrow before it becomes official. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:14, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Hanthawady was standing firm as Russia's ally and the strength/participation only mentions china, lithuania, me and 2 vassals, correct me if Im wrong and you just frogot to put the word Hanthawady in the algorithm expination thing adn added the 3. and True to the -5 part... wont complain about that anymore now that I think about it... Stability would be more reliable source for that stuff. though, cant wait to industrialize in 1700!LxCaucassus 02:28, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

France just joined with Russia, they get another +3, it is now 44 on both sides, meaning a draw! LurkerLordB 03:05, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Cool. But I want this to be drawn out really long. Think Great Northern War. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:31, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * yes... that war was about this area and would make russia better and if it lasts untill 1682/85 or something that would be perfect because of Peter the Great. If everyone agrees then the war will last that long.LxCaucassus 16:38, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

WTF. Russia is counted twice in the algoritm......Scandinator

Russia/ Two Vassals, Hanthawaddy, Lithuania, China, Russia: 21

It should be 18 and thus sweden is winning by 3 points.Scandinator

France and Hanthawaddy are not counted, even if they stated their firm support.LxCaucassus 16:38, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm supporting Russia. --Galaguerra1 19:59, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think they just accidentally put Russia instead of France. I fixed it, so it is now 21. Sort of sad that the big plot to gain "vast amounts of territory" from Russia resulted in the attackers gaining nothing. LurkerLordB 21:31, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Technically you need to add Milan in as there is an agreement that whatever war the other is involved in they have to be to, forgot about that for my other wars. Kunarian 21:42, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, do vassals of everyone count, not just the main nation? If so, then the Sweden Side would go up 3, resulting in a victory. Still seems far from being the massive victory that was promised. LurkerLordB 02:12, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

You can put your vassal there if you want. But it would detract from your vassal's well-doing. Also, since Russia attacked into Swedish territory, the distance to the location and ruling time by default are maximized, to "near the location of the war" and "151+" years, which would mean Russian victory for now, unless there are any more additions to allies. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:41, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden just dropped out of the war, but Joseon is continuing it, so it is still on, just without Sweden. Of course, Joseon will go down if they continue fighting. LurkerLordB 23:38, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't drop out of the war. I tried to end it and pulled troops back to the original front.Scandinator

More updates to the algorithm
Well, I was waiting for a period of peace but doesn't look like that's coming anytime soon…changes will be effective to all wars that have not yet started:


 * Instead of doing population as simply the greater population getting more points, we could instead take the number of digits in the country's population. This is not too hard to estimate, but when in doubt, halfway in between is always an option. For example, if China (pop 1,300,000,000) today declared war on San Marino (14,000), China would get 10 points and San Marino would only get 5. This is until we can get an effective system of power. I assume most players have between 1,000,000 and 99,999,999 people so it doesn't make too much of a difference. It just seems natural that a small duchy should not go up against a huge superpower. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:43, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Would this be effective for the Ottoman-Hungarian War?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Check the time you declared war against the time I made that post. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:16, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Darn! I was hoping this was going to be effective in the war I'm in now lol! CrimsonAssassin 02:20, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Algoryth: Hungary vs. Ottoman Empire
This will be provisory.if i get allies, or they get allies, it will be changed. The location of the war is on the Hungarian borders and OTL Western Greece.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:08, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary
Total = 43
 * Far from the location of war:2
 * Strength:15 (Hungary, Poland, Venice, France, Hanthawaddy)
 * Military expansion:3
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance:1815/240xpi = 23,7582944 = 8
 * Editcount:1815
 * 6x5x8 = 240
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 0 years:0

Ottoman Empire
Total = 22
 * Close to the location of war:3
 * Strength:3 (Ottoman Empire)
 * Motive - Religious:7
 * Greater population:2
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance (random):2
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5

Result
43/65 = 0,64516129 0,161538462 x 2 = 0,323076924 = 32,3%
 * 0,661538462-0.5 = 0,161538462
 * Ottoman area:36564px

Result: Hungarian victory.Hungary may annex 32,3% of Ottoman territory, or 11,810 px (530,150 sq km).Additional concessions may be made via treaty.

Discussion
Note that the Hungarian motive is political, since the objective is conquer the parts of Europe (Balkans) owned by the Ottoman Empire.not taking all the empire.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

May I join the War however in a "I'm going to also take land style" which will still {C} give you support however I would also like to take back some Venetian lands, displayed in the map here, just say if it causes any problems. Kunarian 15:51, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Venice
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total = 44
 * Far from the location of war: 2
 * Strength: 12 (Hungary, Poland, Venice, France)
 * Military expansion: 9
 * Motive - Political: 5
 * Expansion: -2
 * Chance: 207/7xpi = 92.9013828: 8
 * Editcount: 207
 * 1x7x0x0 = 7
 * Participating on War: 10
 * Owned area for 0 years:0

Ottoman Empire
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total = 29
 * Close to the location of war: 3
 * Strength: 3 (Ottoman Empire)
 * Motive - Religious:7
 * Greater population: 2
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance (random): 9
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5

Results
44/73 = 0,618421053
 * 0,618421053 - 0.5 = 0,118421053
 * 0,118421053 x 2 = 0,236842106 = 23,6

Result: Venetian victory.Venice has right to 23,6% of Ottoman territory, or 8629 pixels.(430,145 sq km).additional concessions may be made via treaty.

Discussion
Minor changes due to the time tht you actually declared war, which influenced on the Venetian chance.i also did the chance for the Ottomans at random.org.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:57, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm:Portugal x Spain
Since Portugal is a player nation, this requires a algorythm.still not complete.waiting for Sevestron to respond to the declaration of war (or not), so we can calculate the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:01, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Spain

 * Next to the location of war:4
 * Strength:6 (Spain, Venice)
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance:7/30 x pi = 0,733038286 = 6
 * Editcount:7
 * 1x6x5x1 = 30
 * Owned area for 0 years:0
 * Participating on war:10
 * Total = 32

Portugal

 * At the location of war:5
 * Strength:6 (Portugal, Vietnam)
 * Motive - Life or Death:10
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance: 7 (random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5
 * Participating on war:10
 * Total =33

Result
33 / 65 = 0,507692308 Result: Portuguese victory.Portugal has right to 1,53 % of Spanish territory, or 172 pixels (8600 square kilometers).
 * 0,507692308 - 0.5 = 0,007692308
 * 0,007692308 times 2 = 0,015384616 = 1,53%
 * Spanish area - 11262 pixels.

Discussion
Some moderator needs to finish this LurkerLordB 22:02, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

The Potuguese have been bolstered with Vietnamese supplies and soldiers. Shouldn't this affect the strength of Portugal?

Yank 02:08, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I back out of the conflict before Veitnam got involved in the war so i shouldn't loose any land! Eldwolf 19:47, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, the are no concessions either side. Kunarian 20:02, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Second Chinese Algorythm
Hey, I don't know if I have the authority to do the chances or not and I don't know if I need the chart used in the previous algorythm for the Chinese conquest of Central America. Anywho, can someone make an algorythm please? CrimsonAssassin 12:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Anyone can do the algorithm, it is just preferred for you to show your work. I will do it when it comes time for the weekend. In the meantime, feel free to strategically choose a starting year. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:26, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1464


 * 2x2x1=4


 * 1464/4=366 xpi = 1149.822911213864328


 * Chance= 8


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 38

Mayans

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 2 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 28

Result
Decisive Chinese victory. China is entitled to 15.15% of Mayab's land.

38/66= .575757

.575757- .5= .075757

.075757 * 2= 15.15%

Discussion
Mayab is in civil disarray. Keep that in mind. Also, you are getting close to finishing the war. Let me recheck the calculations and yoy might be done in one more algorithm. Keep in mind the Spanish conquest of the Mayas was drawn out over several hundred years. The Aztec conquest was relatively quick but suppressing the rebellions took several more years. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:45, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1476
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1476/4=369 xpi = 3641.884024001972777
 * Chance= 7


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 37

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 1 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 29

Result
Decisive Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 12.12% of Aztec Territory

37/66= .5656

.5656 - .5= .0656

.0656 * 2= .1212

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1477
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1476/4=369.25 xpi = 1160.033087338031065
 * Chance= 5


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 35

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 33

Result
Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 2% of Aztec Territory

35/68= .5147

.5656 - .5= .0147

.0147* 2= .02

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1465


 * 2x2x1=4


 * 1464/4=366.25 xpi = 1150.608309377261686


 * Chance= 6


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 36

Mayans

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 4 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 30

Result
Decisive Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 9% of Mayab's land.

36/66= .5454

.5454 - .5= .0454

.0454 * 2= .09

Kunarian's potential rule violations
Kunarian has recently begun to violate numerous rules of this game. First, he has added way more vassal states than the current limit (2, according to the rules page), as well as the fact that most are not contiguous to his nation. Once more, for many of those he didn't give any sort of RP reason for the conquerings (He just proclaims that Venice rules over Savoy, without mentioning any dispute, dynastic union, or other reasons for his domination) He has also gone over the current maximum number of allowed colonies per 50 year period, edited the main map without permission (resulting in the huge mix-up that occured earlier), as well as shown unrealistic strength for a nation that just fought for its independence (within a few years of a revolution against the Papal states, he defeated a much larger nation and then began to conquer other Italian states as well. Something must be done. LurkerLordB 21:13, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * About Savoy, these are claims they had ben not made yet.

And, the rules state that is possible to make supernational confederations, and his may be one, (the states on a supernational confederation won't count as vassals).--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Venice would not rule over the other ones, but in this case, Venice controls the other states, even if loosely. LurkerLordB 21:23, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry posted before you two but there was an edit conflict.

I have explained they are not vassal states but you fail to recognise this fact, I asked DK and Collie about it and there was a resounding answer that I had to make a Union like the Holy Roman Empire or have 2 vassals so I made a Union. Also the Union of the northern states is easily likely to happen due to events thanks to the HRR and Naples itself. Also I have only made claim to Savoy not conquered it, I made that clear, DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CLAIM AND A CONQUEST? Also I have conquered one colony and established two the conquered one does not count. I have edited the map as it says in the rules, to give a map detailing my moves, did you read them enough? The algorithm states that I won against Hungary and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conquests. Also I didn't conquer them, you saw how well that went with Milan, I incorporated them into a Union. Something must be done about your lack of understanding of my moves. Kunarian 21:24, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Now for the unpdated post, Venice controls them as a central government and can control them quite well due to the benefits Venice has brought and the security that the northern states have always striven for. Kunarian 21:25, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

A Union would have all the states equal, not Venice ruling over them. Also, you can't just claim nations and not expect them to resist at least some. There is a reason why all the Italian states didn't unite before, and there is a reason that in real life they only united after several foregin invasions, revolutions, and wars. There is absolutely no reason why the northern states would react in response to Naples, because Naples signed a peace treaty with all of them after getting Corsica that they would expand no further into Italy. Yankovic, who is on the moderator list, stated that taking colonies by war is not an exception to the 2 colonies rule. I do not understand "and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conflicts". Please explain. Also, there is no reason to shout at people with capital letters. LurkerLordB 21:36, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I changed the title and some stuff that I was afraid may have been too confrontational. LurkerLordB 21:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the rules stating that it is okay to have more than 2 colonies if you conquer one. Personally I would love to be able to use conquest to establish/expand colonies. I would finish off the Morrocan Marinid Sultanate and be done with it. Regardless it is still a violation of the rules, and should be punished as such.

Yank 21:45, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Its a confederate union were they have flexibility that gives them contentment to be part of the union, however Venice being the big breadwinner makes the rules so to say, what your saying is like saying that Prussia didn't rule over the states in Germany as key holder during the first decades of the German Empire. The northern states value security and soveriegnty over all things and so being in a Confederate Union is about as far as they would go plus the Papal states tried to conquer them quite violently so too, also Naples ripped up the treaty saying that they would defend the nations of italy and not expand so naturally they are going to be even more drawn to a Union. Also look on DK's talk page and you will see that Yankovic is suspended for the time being of his moderator priviledges. Plus the rules themselves clearly states that ESTABLISHING only counts and conquering is very different to that. Basically about the rule, I can assume that DK thought that the previous war algorithms which made nations with vassals or in personal dynastic unions lose 33% of their warscore was a bit unfair and unrealistic after Venice's crushing victory so removed it in the latest renewment of the rules.

Also thank you for change some things, makes it less of an arguement and more of a debate.

Btw Yank it's not a violation of the rules so lets wait for DK to come along and sort this ok, I think we both got in our points. Kunarian 21:47, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I calmed down and see that I may have overreacted a bit. I didn't see what DK posted on Yank's page, so I will wait for the moderators to decide this policy. I will accept your dominance of the north Italian states as long as you RP the two small ones and South Savoy joining (perhaps with some resistance). I did see your point on the main page about the Mamluk colonies, I got a bit impatient after several years of posting "Naples prepares its forces, if the Mamluks are going to send troops to free their colony", so I just said that they won and if someone ever made an algorithim I lost later I would have them break free. I'll have some general colonial resistance along the line. Just as long as you RP the occupation of Savoy and the two little states well, and perhaps show some problems with disunity, I will drop my claims against you, and will have more colonial dificulties (like that one recession earlier from overexpansion). However, in-game hostilities between Naples and Venice may continue... LurkerLordB 21:59, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already begun deeply RPing them to join, for instance Milan would not join completely at this time at all. Also Savoy would not join at the moment as it is split into two major zones of influence, French and Italian. Also we need to RP the Venetian troops conflict in Cuba, because we both know why they are there and it has something to do with the words: Claim, Bahamas, Declined, Aggressive and Colonialism. And I understand about tensions so don't worry. Kunarian 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about this, the only known example of this case of colony conquering before Venice was when France bought a Brandenburgian colony in the 1580s.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:49, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the colonization rules either confirming or refuting that colonies by conquest are immune from the normal rules of colonization. I'm inclined to believe that they aren't, as it would create an all-to-convienient loophole to an imprtant rule of the map game. And my name is still part of the list as the punishment was only until I got a better attitude, and I have. I no longer wish to invade Kunarian's precious Ireland. I still think that Kunarian's actions are still highly hypocritical. Even if we discont his actions in North Italy (and I don't think we should), he still has given Christian Spain support to invade the equally Christian sovreign nation of Portugal. The fact that he stood to prevent my invasion of Ireland and supports of Spain's invasion of Portugal stinks of favoritism and prejudice. He trots out messages of Christian unity only when they serve his purposes. In other words Kunarian has become another Janusary.

Yank 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

But Yank, loophole or not its how things actually worked OTL and how things should continue to work ATL, maybe a better thing to do would be to say that conquered colonies have penalties for a time such as limited expansion. There is no difference between Portugal and Ireland but the situation that it is occuring under, it could more be seen as a unification of the lands and plus it could be for more logical reasons that the invasion of Ireland. Plus I act as the Doge is supposed to and this new Doge is Christian with a strong sense of Unionism as I have RPed in game. Also no, Janusary did stupid mad things like revive his emperor while talking to his magic cat and firing missiles from the future. I simply have been very sucessful with my resources. Kunarian 22:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian may be advancing a little fast, but he is definately not doing the ridiculous stuff that Janusary wasLurkerLordB 22:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember when he presented the keys of Delhi to the ghost of Jehoichim? Lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:19, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Or that time when Jahangir (which was, anyway?) resolved to get from India to Torquay in a rowboat?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:22, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I read his stuff and could not stop laughing, they were very entertaining especially the Emperors cat one. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * What year was that???Scandinator

If you feel I am going too fast then I will slow down but I need to be able to work with nations because when conflict arises you need to move fast and so Venice has had to, It had a war with Hungary then wanted to secure itself against HRR and then moved to stop European expansion by outside powers and now it claims are actively being challenged and violated not even negotiated. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

From what I see, there's not a real problem, but I'm going to clarify a few rules. Colonies gained by conquest are just like any other colony. I remember stating that explicitly back during the Mughal War. Also, Kunarian, it is okay to have a loose confederation, but you can't simply annex other countries. I can kind of understand that Venice is kind of the liberal of the game, but normal old conquest of nearby nations rarely fails. Another option, a major personal union of Milan and Venice might cause many other nations to become sattelites, and eventually be incorporated after several decades. Be creative. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Mamluk Cuba War
Next turn I will post that the Venetian aid to the Mamluk resisters caused a conflict. Be warned, the Mamluk Cuba war will be very messy... LurkerLordB 22:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Posted about it, I think we should make this conflict slowly evolve to be one of the most bloody proxy wars in history, would be pretty interesting actually. I think we should make it last and make it interesting and entertaining. Kunarian 22:38, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

My main idea is that it won't just be a war between Naples and Venice over that colony, that the native tribes and Mamluks will all revolt turning it into chaos. LurkerLordB 22:52, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Considering Venice supporting all these other wars it would make sense for it to be a Venetian-Mamluk-Native Coalition using both conventional and unconventional warfare Versus Naples and turncoats using conventional warfare primarily. And for there still to be a balance of power that would even out every time a new side joined their rivals joined the other side. Kunarian 22:58, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, with all of the other wars, Venice probably wouldn't be able to declare a full-fledged war on Naples, their military would be too divided. So that is why the fighting would be restricted to the Caribbean colonies. LurkerLordB 01:42, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

The revolts have begun, if Venice keeps on supporting the Mamluk-Venice faction, then the revolts could escalate up to full-on civil war in Ricasolia. LurkerLordB 01:59, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Future of the Bahamas
I think we need to discuss how we are going to divide the Bahamas between Naples, Venice and Vietnam. I see the Bahamas as being a future source of conflict, and I wish to nip that conlict in the bud. I want to know what Naples and Venice control in the island chain. I do believe that there is enough to split between the three of us.

Yank 02:50, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Naples controls a portion of the big island in the south, Venice controls the small ones in the middle. Of course, this may change after the Ricasolian war, so maybe we should wait until then. LurkerLordB 02:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should decide the divide now then RP out a nice proxy war like we are now and then end up with our nations agreeing on a treaty which devides the Bahamas as planned, so heres my proposal keeping in mind that I have given Venice every middle island already colonised and all those above. feel free to modify if you disagree. Kunarian 06:53, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm OK with the division plan for the Bahamas. I plan on taking a portion of Hispaniola to link them with the Lesser Antiles.

Yank 04:03, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Savoy division
Apparently Venice will go to war with Savoy, and I want propose a possible post-war division of its territory.

It's only an approximation. I want give to Venice the most of the territory, give a mediterranean coast to Burgundy (In such case I'll have to give a little territory) and some lands for me. As I said, the map is only an approximation, but the black lines represent the proposed borders. --Galaguerra1 23:18, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

It's sort of awkward that Burgundy is divided in two like that.LurkerLordB 23:44, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Awkward, but no problems. Check out Spain's borders in OTL at the time. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:43, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the Venetian proposed borders based on the Savoy Proclamation. It gives France the north, Venice the south and Burgundy a small enclave due to their lack of claim (as in native population) to the area, it is small yes but provides the nessesary tunnel to the sea however it will require France to hand over a tiny piece of land. Kunarian 00:29, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree with yout proposal. By now...lets wait the Jaeden's opinion. --Galaguerra1 01:58, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. (Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos 17:56, September 29, 2011 (UTC)).

Venetian

 * Close to the location of the war: 3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Venice, Milan, France, Burgundy: 12
 * Side with greater population: 2
 * Military Expansion: 9
 * Territorial Expansion: -2
 * Motive is political: 5
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 245/960*pi = 0.8017606251% → 0
 * Editcount: 245
 * Time: 18:35:24 → 1*8*3*5*2*4 =960

Total: 40
 * Country does not rule said area: 0

Savoy
Total: 29
 * At the location of the war: 5
 * Savoy: 3
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Territorial Expansion: 0
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance (random.org): 6
 * Has owned the area for 151+ years: -5

Result
(2*40/(40+29)-1)*1.5=0.23913043478260869565217

Major Venetian victory

Venice has taken 23% of Savoy

Discussion
Hey. Savoy is in unity fine. Also, even if there wasn't full unity, you would do the 1.5 multiplier at the end, to the final result. So you would calculate (2*40/(40+29) - 1) * 1.5. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I already put that there was strife between the french and Italian parts of the nation. Kunarian 23:52, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Do I need to do another algorithm? I know that I will get the ten percent needed to overthrow their government. Kunarian 20:52, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

The other people should pitch into the war effort if they want territory. With three people each having a separate algorithm, you need only a total of 60%, which divides it more evenly among everyone. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:29, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

In such case I want my own algortihm ^^ --Galaguerra1 04:46, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

We already worked out a way to devide it. I would simply take it then split the territory up afterwards. Kunarian 19:59, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Swedo-Russian War (continued)
Sweden lost the war. But in all fairness, LurkerLordB said something about Sweden's side having an extra vassal up their sleeve?

Well, hate to make up rules halfway through the war, but it is only fair that because Sweden dropped out of the war:


 * 1) Sweden surrenders any chance of winning. This goes without saying.
 * 2) Sweden surrenders any territory it lost if it loses. This also goes without saying.
 * 3) The war algorithm starts again, with the opponent having attackers' advantage. If Sweden drops out of the war, it would be a perfect opportunity for Russia to go in and take territory in real life. Dropping out doesn't make you immune unless you do diplomacy. There has to be some "catch" to dropping out. However, this may be strategically beneficial because you will be against a weaker opponent if you got a disadvantage in the chance or military updating section.
 * 4) Sweden has the opportunity to declare truce for any length of time with Russia's agreement, which Sweden can use to update their military. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:41, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

And if Joseon plans on taking any territory, they have to do their own algorithm. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:42, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

StarkBlack's Inactivity
Shouldn't the Ottomon EMpire be listed as inactive? I thought I remember StarkBlack being gone for at least a week. If not, when will Stark be officially listed as inactive?

Yank 17:57, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

Give it awhile. I want to have fun slowly collapsing his empire. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:53, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

First Kulin War


This was awhile ago, but I forgot to post it. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:36, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Can I Join?
My name is SliceB00m, I want to join because a friend recommended me. I want to be Scotland.SliceB00m 20:33, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome! Feel free to add yourself to the country sign-up. Make sure you are familiar with the and procedures, but you should be able to catch on pretty quickly. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:36, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Also, doesn't Scotland control Ireland in this game too as the Keltic union? LurkerLordB 12:47, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, since the Kelts went inactive, the things had been a mess.apparently Ireland is independent, given that Vietnam almost went at war with Venice over that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:34, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

I believe Scotland is an Anglo-German puppet and Ireland is in severe disarray. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:16, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Things change. Japan went from a major colonial power to a Vietnamese vassal state. Besides, Zagoria hasn't said a word about Scotland for centuries. It is very apparent that Scotland isn't on Z's list of priorities. SO, it'd be very easy for the Scots to take full independance from the Anglo-Germans. They might be able to sweeten the pot by gving the portions of former England they stole all those years back in exchange for their independance.

Yank 21:40, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Scotland isn't marked on the map as a vassal state, and Zagoria has been inactive so long, it should be easy to break away from his nation. LurkerLordB 22:21, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Eldwolf
NVM, an admin dealt with the issue. LurkerLordB 23:00, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

Everybody be on lookout for now.now that he was banned, he might use sockpuppets.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:00, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Zagoria
Zagoria has been gone for two weeks. I thought that a user is declared inactive if they miss half that time. I know Zagoria's Anglo-Germany is an important nation, but why are we suspending a rule for a user's benefit?

Yank 16:22, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

True, he went away with no warning, and it is doubtful that he will come back. If he is rendered inactive, will his nation stay together, or will England and Germany (and maybe Denmark) break apart into their own nations after the civil disarray? LurkerLordB 00:19, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I think that will be like this.i just am in doubts about Denmark, since they would have to conquer territory from Sweden, and would be conquered by them soon.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:16, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Absence
I have to leave temporary the game for study Problems, I guess I will return Within a week the Map Game. I'll let Galaguerra control Burgundy in my absence, as a personal union. Greetings :D! (Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos 18:26, October 3, 2011 (UTC)).

On the map...
Milan is a vassal of Venice, and the Papal States are a vassal of Naples, but are unmarked on the map. Just wanted to make sure the next map included them. LurkerLordB 02:56, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1477
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1481/4=370.25 xpi = 1163.174679991620858
 * Chance= 8


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 42

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 4 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 32

Result
Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 13.5% of Aztec Territory

42/74= .5675

.5675 - .5= .0675

.0675* 2= .1351

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1482
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1482/4=370.5 xpi = 1163.960078155018307
 * Chance= 7


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 41

Mayans

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 2 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 28

Result
Decisive Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 18.84% of Mayab's land.

41/69= .5942

.5942 - .5= .0942

.0942 * 2= .1884

Discussion
I seriously think that it's about time that the Mayans and Aztecs fall. It's at the 20 year mark and this would NOT take as long. Not only do the Chinese have guns that the Aztecs and Mayans DON'T have, but they have naval expertise and deadly combat skills, both hand-to-hand and ranged. CrimsonAssassin 03:12, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Algerian War (Algorythm)
For making it, i need to know when the war started and who is on France's side, for starting--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:25, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

The war started at 1667, and I'm fighting with support of Burgundy, in personal union with France. --Galaguerra1 16:36, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Zayyyanids
Total=39
 * At the location of war:5
 * Strength:3 (Zayyanids)
 * Population:6 (lower than 1 million and higher than 100,000)
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Life or Death:10
 * Chance (random):5
 * Participating On War:10

France
Total=45
 * Far from the location of war:2
 * Strength:12 (France, Burgundy, Naples, Venice)
 * Population:8 (more than 10 million, and less than 100 million)
 * Military expansion:1
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Religious:7
 * Chance:56/12 x pi = 14,6607657 = 5
 * Editcount:56
 * 0x3x2x2=12
 * Participating On War:10

Result

 * 45/84 = 0,535714286
 * 0,535714286-0,5 = 0,035714286
 * 0,035714286 x 2 = 0,071428572 = 7,14%

French victory.France has right to 7,14% of Zayyanid territory.

Discussion
This algorythm enforces the new rules for population, it is based on a estimative of the population at the time.But it may be subject to error on the algerian part (it may be more than 1 million), especially that there are no places to look up Algerian demographics from before the 19th century.Looking at Demographics of france, I also assume that the French population in 1667 must be no lower than 10 million.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:04, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I think that Vietnam and Naples are supporting me (or just Vietnam, materially) --Galaguerra1 20:08, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I think that Vietnam stopped to support France.you can see thuis on the "Algerian War" section.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:46, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget Venice, troops are already there :D Kunarian 20:09, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

But, the vassals will be present (respectively, Papal States for Naples and Milan for Venice)?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:41, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Even then, if the vassals of each state involved are present, you failed to overthrow the government, since in a situation of Strength 21 for France, they still would get only roughly 17% of Zayyanid territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:46, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

In such case, I'll take that territory (17%, if the two states and the respective vassals support me) and I can annex the rest in the coming crusade. --Galaguerra1 22:16, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

1,000th Edit
Congratulations, Principia Moderni, on your 1,000th edit on your talk page! CrimsonAssassin 21:26, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

I salute this article O, - O, 7 I cry at its beauty. But yeah this is brilliant, glad its such a long lived game. Kunarian 21:34, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

There are only two problems: 1, there is now a glitch that to edit a single section on its own, you need to edit the one below it instead, and 2, now you can't see if any recent edits have been done to the talk page by looking at the number of edits at the top. LurkerLordB 22:47, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Ending the Ricasolia/Bahamas War
OK, the war appears to be winding down, and negociations are beginning to end it. Here is my proposal (which will be supported by the in-game Neapolitans): Naples will get the whole Mamluk colony on Cuba, however, they will be unable to control the parts deeper in the jungle, and will lose some land. In return for Venice supporting this decision and recognizing Naples as having a claim over Cuba, they will recognize Venice's claim over all of the Bahamas, and give them that part of Ricasolia (which was founded entirely to spite the Venetian claims). LurkerLordB 22:40, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, this is good, by the way the General will be hailed in Venice as a war hero and bringer of peace and will be given the seat as governer of the Bahamas colony. It will be interesting to read about that in the history books. :D Kunarian 22:52, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

He ought to mention in the negociations that he is not to be punished for his actions, or else Naples will pressure the Pope into excommunicating him. LurkerLordB 23:58, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Russia
Close to location of War: 3

Attacker’s Advantage: 1

Russia/Lithuania: 6

Updating military: 8

Population: 2

Expansion: -4

Participating in War: 10

Religious War: 7

Does not rule said area: 0

Chance: 6

<p style="text-indent:.5in">Edits: 1060

UTC time: 1:42

1*4*2=8

1060/8= 132.5

132.5*pi= 416.261…

Grand Total: 39

Ottoman Empire
At location of War: 5

Ottoman Empire: 3

Strength: 0

Expansion: 0

Life or Death: 10

Has Ruled area for 150+ years: -5

Participating in War: 10

Chance: 3(random)

Grand Total: 26

Result
39/65=0.6

Crushing Russian Victory; Russia may annex 219384 px or 60% of Ottoman Territory, any additional concessions may be made by treaty.

Discussion
Dude you can't annex any of the territory you see on my talk page, plus you need to have a war with the smaller nations as they are the only ones that actually border you. AS IN not a war with the ottomans but with the small states you actually did declare war on. Kunarian 00:06, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

The Ottoman war isn't over yet, just because you made the plan for division doesn't mean it is done yet. Russia invaded the northern parts, taking advantage of the chaos from the Bulgarians invading the European parts and Venice invading the middle-eastern parts, they attacked the Caucasus parts. It's very realistic any bordering nations would jump in to try and seize territory from an empire that is collapsing. LurkerLordB 00:10, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you LurkerLord, arent the small states supposed to be created AFTER the war was over as a concequence? So..the Ottoman Empire Still Exists Therefore Russia cans still wage war on them. Either way the ottoman empire will no longer exist as a nation...at all. It will be annexed by Russia and the Remenants made into a Turkish Puppet state(that is to say, the parts that will not be taken by venice, hungary etc...)LxCaucassus 00:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Okay but there are already small nations that have broken off, what happens there? My biggest problem is that you are ignoring the break away nations that have already formed, saying they are still part of the ottoman empire, not waging wars against them because you don't want to is not a good enough reason. Kunarian 00:27, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

The Ottoman Empire will still maintain loose control untill it is finaly, well, defeated, and thus, untill war's they are part of the Ottoman. And if you realy want me to go to war with each state individualy, why dont you do 10 algorithms for each, even if Common sense dictates that if a naiton is just in the middle of loosing a war then they will still retian control over the rest of their empire, and only when that governement is destroyed will the nation break apart, even if the capital is captured. Especialy in 1676.LxCaucassus 00:39, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I gave you the offer on my talk page Kunarian 00:45, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Inactivate Janusary
Wow, I can't believe someone hasn't noticed before right now, but the Mughal empire is still listed as being taken, despite the fact that its user hasn't been active for weeks (and he didn't exactly leave under the best of circumstances either). LurkerLordB 01:43, October 5, 2011 (UTC)