User talk:Mr.Xeight

WEW
You were talking about our history stuff here?Airiph-althist 03:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Nvm, we hve our own private website. All of people here are helping us fine tune what we've got on groups.yahoo.com/ They all worked on how to make the CSA happen and are working on how the Byzantine Empire was able to survive on the site. Mr.Xeight 03:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I found your mapAiriph-althist 03:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That one's old. I'm making one now. China's completely different. I don't want to spoil the surprise. Lot more African free states too. Mr.Xeight 03:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

AS long as my Cape towns stay EXACTLY the sameAiriph-althist 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC) I told you, IT'S BIGGER. My eyes are going I can't get it the same so I just expanded it. Mr.Xeight 03:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Then you make it close Ill edit itAiriph-althist 03:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Small pages
What about the small pages you started, like Japanese Empire? --Max Sinister 13:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What about them?--Mr.Xeight 18:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, they don't have anything of content besides some (admittedly nice) flags. Why don't you add some text to it, and a timeline? Are they supposed to exist in the same world?--Max Sinister 10:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW - your TL The Commonwealth of Nations is pretty short either. If you are still interested in writing this AltHist you are given four weeks time to let us know and to start writing on, otherwise it will be deleted.--Max Sinister 11:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I've got too much on my plate, atm :( So for now I think it would be better if I save the flags to one page (the Byzantine's page isn't too short is it?) and come back in the future. Sorry. Hope to be back soon. Mr.Xeight 01:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

New America
Eastern America

Quebec
how loyal it stays depend largely on what happen in France itself. *Here*, many people were horrified when they learned that the king had been executed leading me to believe that they would have probably fought against the republicans had they had not been conquered.Priests, who used to hold a lot of power in the province used to say that the motherland was royalist France not the republican one. Its hard to say if they would have won thought, on one hand the government of France would have had to send lots of troops to quell the insurgency and great-britain might have taken this as an excuse to re-invade Canada. On the other hand you didn't have that many people inhabiting the colony.

If however the government had stayed royalist, you probably would have a pretty loyal province.--Marcpasquin 13:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

heh heh... I guess "assasinators" isn't very good grammar eh? XDUnforgiveable 01:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

EtP: Byzantines
I think I may have found their key to survival in EtP, and it comes from a much stronger Muslim Spain. The Emirate of conquers southern France sometime in the 1100s. The massive European effort to unseat the Muslims in France would mean a totally different course for the Crusades, and the bizarre Constantinople adventure of the 1200s would likely not have happened. That does still leave the Ottomans to contend with farther down the road, but I think EtP will have a strong vibrant East Rome well into the 1400s, at least. Benkarnell 20:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they could survive. If the war was to fan the hatreds of Christians & Muslims even more, that would mean aggression on both sides. Now who would have more soldiers fort their faction, the Middle East, or all of Orthodox & Catholic forces working seperately but for the same goal of the destruction of the Ottomans & Islam. If it so bad, Israel itself could be more influenced by Europe. Mr.Xeight 23:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Huh, you're right about the aggression. Certainly in the new Crusader kingdoms of France: sort of a "Gallic Inquisition" in the 1200s. I'll have to pursue that Crusade in more detail before I can know how the later ones turn out. But I definitely like the idea of no Fourth Crusade to Constantinople. Assuming the Ottomans would still come to power later, the Byzantines would at least still be united, and Greece wouldn't be peppered with miniature despotates and Italian colonies. I don't think that the crusade in France would necessarily lead to more fanaticism among the Greeks or Turks, though - but probably among the French Christians and Spanish Muslims. Benkarnell 02:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

But one key factor in the Spanish Inquisition (we're reading The Pit and the Pendulum for Halloween tomorrow so I found out today) is the Spanish saw what happened to Greece and thought along the lines that "These guys are Muslims & Jewish too. That means they're Ottomans and working with them!". Of course there were dozens of other factors, just curious. Of course if we play this very right, could Greece evolve into (albet) (very) small colonial empire in the 1800s? Mr.Xeight 23:40, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oy, I'm still sooo far from that point :D. All I can say is that EtP will have next to nothing that resembles OTL colonialism. The Norse are colonizing America in earnest from 1100, but they mainly establish settlements and, later, kingdoms that are independent... it is the 1100s, after all. German merchants will follow in the later medieval era, and by then Arab merchants of Andalusia might be sailing around as well, I don't really know. So the colony building going on is more about trade than anything else, and it's not really controlled by anybody. Medieval Greece/Byzantium was a fairly important exporter even in OTL when the empire was falling apart, so you can bet that a lot of Greek trade goods made it to America. But I don't believe they were heavily into sailing at that point, were they?


 * After c. 1500 I don't even want to speculate, since by then _everything_ will be so totally different. Benkarnell 02:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * [EDIT]: And I didn't know that about the Inquisition, so I suppose Crusader Gallia couldn't be _exactly_ like Inquisition Spain. And I know that medieval southern France was OTL a very complicated place, religion-wise. There were a couple of major monastic movements, plus the Cathars (I don't even actuallly know what they believed yet), plus the Waldensians (ditto). Adding a Muslim conquest and a full-blown Crusade to that mix... look out, I guess. Benkarnell 04:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I've added a little section at Eleventh Century (Ethelred the Pious). I don't think that anything can happen to change the Battle of Manzikert (1071 is too early for any changes to drift that way). But events in France will definitely change the course of the Crusades, so we won't have Venetians taking the Empire over. Benkarnell 21:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)



Re:German
I speak German... slowly and painfully, but I can do it online OK. Do you need a hand with something? Benkarnell 05:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Have you ever seen one of those signs that tell you're entering the borders of like a city, state, nation etc. I was wondering how would you say "Welcome to the Byzantine Empire" in German? Mr.Xeight 05:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Most German signs just say the name of the place you're entering: "Bundesrepublik Deutschland", "Freistaat Bayern", "Berlin", etc. "Now entering Greece" would probably be "Sie treten in das Byzantinisches (or Griechisches) Reich". "Welcome" would be "Wilkommen in das Byzantinisches/Griechisches Reich". Benkarnell 17:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just my two cents: That's not correct German (I'm from Germany). This should rather be "Sie betreten nun das Byzantinische/Griechische Reich" and "Willkommen im Byzantinischen/Griechischen Reich". Declination, casi, you know.--Max Sinister 12:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

So really the sign would just be Byzantinisches Reich. Thanks! What's in-store for the German Empire in EtP? Mr.Xeight 18:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The Gallic Crusade (in southern France, mid-to-late-1100s) is currently just some doodled maps. But if all goes the way I'm imagining, medieval France disintegrates, with the eastern parts joining the Holy Roman Empire. That would make "Germany" even more unweildy. So who knows? Benkarnell 19:07, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

PS-1 Kerenaike
Could you post something on our thread on alternatehistory.net about Kerenaike first before posting an article? I just want to make sure that everything doesn't conflict with each other, and the easiest way to do that is to post on this thread: http://alternatehistory.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=109543

Oh yeah sure. Sorry about that. Mr.Xeight 01:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Help
Looking for a person with an immense amount of knowledge on France, or at least a native of France or the Francophone nations. Mr.Xeight 21:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * what do you need ? --Marcpasquin 18:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Franz Lives!
I am working on Franz Lives!, a scenario where Gavrilo Princip's gun malfunctions and thus Franz Ferdinand lives. Could you help? Buk5 21:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

What do you need help with? Mr.Xeight 21:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Just on the Great war, the Russian constitution laid down by Alexei, the Nations in the Space race etc. I am just trying for a less ASB version of princip arrest. Buk5 21:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, sure. Any special plans for any nations? Mr.Xeight 01:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

IB.Greece
Do you still keep up with Conculture discussions? The idea of Greeks in Florida has again been floated, take a look: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conculture/message/32638. If you're interested in sketching the details of a plan, now is a good time for it. Benkarnell 03:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Inca flag
sure, just send me the original and I'll see what I can do --Marcpasquin 12:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Mexique
They few difference this would cause in my mind is:


 * a possible escape route for the nobles of France during the revolution
 * a better relationship with the natives as the french didn't have the equivalent of the conquistadors
 * possibly a few major infrastructure projects in the metropole
 * more blacks in mexico with the importation of slave to work in mines and plantation (the french would probably not use the natives)

--Marcpasquin 18:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

What would France call Mexico? I was thinking of making a TL where Napoleon does no go for Russia, but quits while it's ahead, taking everything west of the Confederation of the Rhine, and making everything west of Prussia a puppet states. This and of course much earlier breakaways with France owning Mexico and the Carribean.


 * I'm not sure what exactly this concept of French Mexico is about, but originally the letter x in Mexico did stand for sh-sound (there was no better way to express this sound in Spanish, see Name of Mexico). Therefore the French would spell it Mechique or something crazy like Mechiqueaux if you want to preserve the last vowel of the Nahuatl name. (Whoah, "Mechiqueaux"! I like it!) — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 18:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks I just thought I could slide by with a translation :) The French Mexico goes with my Chinese Empire thing. I just have one question, how would you pronounced Mechiqueax (Mexico?) and Mechique? (Mecheek?). I really have no knowledge of the French language at all, everything I do doing with France I named is via Google Translation Mr.Xeight 19:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Another little snag I've hit is changing in naming influential people in Mexico and South America. Their names obviously have to change since Spain was not the leader of Mexico & Central America. Another thing is what would mestizos and mulattos be called?

I think changing Mexico to a French nation is too much of an undertaking. Mr.Xeight 19:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Uh, your French is that bad? I don't speak it either, but I can read it at least. The correct name of Mexico in Nahuatl is "Meshiko", both English /meksiko/ and Spanish /mekhiko/ are results of misconception of the letter "x" in it. (BTW, the same goes for "Texas".) "Mechiqueaux" is how you spell in French something which is supposed to be pronounced /meshiko/ (and its adjective form would be "Mechiquelais", /me-shi-ke-le/). Actually the French have too many variants to spell the syllable /ko/, the shortest of them is "co", the longest of them is "queault", you can choose any of them. Anyway, since French Mexico never had letter "x" in its name, it's obvious that in could not appear in its "Anglosized" variant (I guess you meant "Anglicized"). — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 14:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * mestizos and mulattos would be called, respectively, métis and mulâtre.--Marcpasquin 16:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Greater France
To be able to have a socialist government under a monarchy, your best bet is to get inspired by some one party communistic government *here* who had a one leader-for-life like yugoslavia.--Marcpasquin 16:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

PS-1 Greece
Can you point me to a link to the PS-1 page you mean? I haven't followed that at all beyond my own 2 little countries, and even then I have no idea what sorts of wars they've been put into by the regular writers. What went wrong? Was it like IB, where at first you just made it too intense, too much, too fast?

I don't think the ancient Greeks used flags really. I think that the Vergina Sun on the Macedonian flag has been connected to the ancient kings of Macedon, including Philip the father of Alexander. It seems that ancient Athens' symbol was an Owl, which appeared on the coins throughout their empire. Coins in general might be a good place to look for symbols of ancient cities and kings and so forth. There are tons of ancient coin pictures online. Benkarnell 04:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

To let you know
In [War of Die Welt]] the actual Japanese Supranational alliance is Japanese SPhere.--Jakezing2 23:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry about that. Mr.Xeight 00:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

thanks for letting me now
--Owen1983 21:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

VC's Cyrenika
Yes, it's in Afrika, but as of 2005, in VC it was held by the Greeks. --Louisiannan 22:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)



Ah sorry, I should have looked at how other nations' colonies were filed. By the way, would you mind if I pitched some ideas to you for VC's Greece and Cyrenaica? Mr.Xeight 21:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Pitch away -- but keep in mind that I see Greece largely following our Greece's path. --Louisiannan 14:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

British Republic Idea
The concept sounds good it would be my pleasure to contribute.Remeber that Scotland came the nearest it ever has to Socialist revolution just after WW1 and that was after winning it,imagine what might happen if we lost. Red guy ~2 08:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for actually listening :)! I suggested Scottish independence on a site called Alternate History in which British-held Celtic lands formed into a federation. A rather rude, anti-communist (his username was "I Blame Communism") Scotsman said that all my ideas were pure stupidity. He said that British nationalism was so set into Scottish and Welsh society that seperating them from Britain I might as well have pigs flying through the streets of Edinburgh or Cardiff. I read that the Scottish Socialist Party was a huge advocate of Scottish Independence. I'd like to learn more about Scotland's socialist revolution. Mr.Xeight 23:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Would the Treaty of Versailles even bother with the the areas that make up the UK and Ireland? Or once England's colonies have been divied up or set free they wouldn't care much about anything else. Yeh Im a frequent used of Alternate History,look me up im called The Red.Btw I get along quite well with I Blame Communism and I can tell you that his names a joke he doesnt go all out on anti-communism.But I dont think your idea for a Celtic Federation is very feasible,an alliance perhaps or a customs union makes sense though.

Scotlands encounter with Socialist Revolution climaxed on "Bloody Friday" where a General strike in Glasgow led to tanks being deployed on George Square.Of course with a much worse economic situation this could evolve into something much more violent.

Also remember the the SSP are a bit of a fringe party,but yes they do support independence,Any socialist revolution would be localised to Scotland with little chance of it spreading south so yes there would be independence. Red guy ~2 09:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

If Scotland does receive independence, what would you say to Northern Ireland and Wales, both still British controlled? I very much doubt the Protestant Northern Irish would very much want to be part of the same country as their southern Catholic not-so-brethren. Mr.Xeight 16:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ireland will probably be same as OTL unless theres some sort of term where all of Ireland needs to be granted independence,which there might be :p.Welsh independence just isnt happening,unless theres some massive catastrophe or its a term which it probably wouldnt be remember that even in the 90s a referendum for a bit devolution for Wales barely through on the Welsh vote.

Red guy ~2 19:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Fero
I know that his english ability is bothersome to you -- but you still should play nice and not delete his message. --Louisiannan 14:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Why (not to be to you of course, Dan; you've been nothing but help for me on this site and IB)? He has listened to literally nothing I've said. Besides just as in our world the events the days before DD were rumors though in this world they've been adopted as canon, so too is the fact that Cyprus was spared from nuclear explosions. Mr.Xeight 14:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

nowiki
If I may ask, why do you keep putting the "nowiki" marks around your links? That is probably why the double brackets aren't working. Mitro 19:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry; what are those? Mr.Xeight 19:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Try editing your user page, you should see them around the Confederation of Greek link you tried to make. Mitro 19:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

New
I don't think I suggested dropping the new, I though you wanted them to be named new? No biggie, name them what you like. Mitro 22:40, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Name calling
Even if you despise someone, there is no need for name calling. Just ignore the bugger if you can otherwise show that you are the better man and avoid insults.--Marcpasquin 14:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand. Would you care for me to apologize, I think I'm ready to if the wikia needs. Mr.Xeight 19:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey Brian
Hey man, this is the only place i can find you and the wowwiki people hate it when we spam the talk pages but mind getting back on ? airiph-althist 02:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC) ...Wow, that kinda sound gay...ick!

I'd be glad to help; but you do know that "Brian" is one of my many pseudonyms, right? :) Ioannis/John is my real name, with Constantine, Brian, Mr. X8, Mr. Xeight, and many others being my pen-names. Mr.Xeight 14:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Meh I'll call you a lot. Not to sound impatient but are you going to reply on that site? airiph-althist 14:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Flags
Hey Ioannis, whats the reasoning behind changing the colours of the egyptian flag? and why readopt the lybian monarchist flag ? --Marcpasquin 14:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought of changing the the colors of the Egyptian flag to "more Greek-friendly" colors. Though if that doesn't actually make sense, would adding "The Republic of Egypt" in Greek? As for Libya; they were more pressured into dominance by the Moreons, they led an expedition into North Africa without the rest of the GC and any salvagable land they took for themselves, with the Despot's nephew as king of this new land. Mr.Xeight 16:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * if egypt is a mandate, maybe the could do like other mandatees have done in the past and simply add their flag in canton

like in this example (I've also added the greek name below the eagle)--Marcpasquin 16:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

New Britain
I've altered the History a tad. If you could check through and tell me any alterations I should make on the talk page I would be much obliged. Bob 14:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Apology
I apologize for any trouble and/or stress I have caused anyone in my 1 year and a bit I've been here. I made a major mistake, I eschewed quality, and replaced it with mere quantity. The complaints about my quality are of course, completely accurate. I am only sorry that I am a cause of any stress to others. I will freely admit that I was ignorant of the standards that were expected of the work I created, this is wholly my fault, and I do apologize. As you can probably tell, English is not my first language (I am a teen-ager learning it at school), I was using this wiki to practice making readable sentences. As this is not, and never was, the purpose of this wiki, I misused this public idea-sharing space. Ladon 23:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * W̙̝ͧ̃͗i̢̖̰̝͙͖̺̟̼̿̽͐́ͅt̥̥̪̼̰ͯ͒̄̊̀ͬ͗̂h̴̡͍̹̺̃ͫ̈̌̀ ̖͚̓̾ș̛̞̫͙͇͉̾͐̎̀̂ĩ͕͍͖̦ͭ͌̀ͯ̕ͅn̖͈ͩͣ̄̋̋ͤ͡c̵̛̘̞͆̓̐̀̓̍̏ḙ̵͔̬͔͚͈͎̑͆ͪ́̑̋̆̓r͕̣͚̅͛͐̇͌̚e̷͕̓ͤͭ̈̌ ͔͚̯̰ͯͧ͐̀ả̋̓̔ͬ̓̀̀ͅp̨̩̗͔̈́̈ǫ̗̥̰̥͈̾̃̕l̦̙͙͍̗͌̆ͨ̏ͪ̈́̚͝o̸̶̳̙̰͙̘̥̤ͮ͋ͪg̪̹̝͔ͤ̊̊i͍̐͘e̸̿͂̂͗͏̬̹̦̼̫s͚͕̩ͥ̃̌̿͐̽̊́,̶̯̫̣͇͉̹ͧ͑̓͛ͬ̌

No, Ladon, the fault is mine.
 * Who am I to judge? Just because your stories aren't my favorites doesn't mean a thing. I'm sure the Chinese replacing the Mongols because of Genghis Khan's death is highly fantastical, some other Mongol would rise up in his place. There's no standard, only users who never find happiness in the world such as me. If you're leaving because of my rant, I implore you to stay. Who are any of us, who am I to judge? You didn't misuse, if anyone did it was me. This site is for people to have fun dreaming of what could have been, not for new people to create stories, only to be smashed by people who have a greater knowledge of history.
 * And if you want to see wasted space, go to Groups.Yahoo, search for the conculture group, then search Greece. There you'll find wasted space.
 * BTW, what country do you live in?

Mr.Xeight 23:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Your comment about Greece
I've just read ur comment about what about Greece in the Aztec Empire timeline (I think that the commen is from March or May..hehe)......I've no time....so....I was thinking if u can help me creating other nations profiles in the Aztec Empire Timeline--Ed9306 16:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure. My specialty (in my opinion :D) is SE Europe but I'd be glad to help you with any nations you like. Mr.Xeight 16:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Your idea in of Greece in this timeline seems preetty good to me......thank u so much--Ed9306 19:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

No problem, if you have any other nations you'd like to flesh out, don't hesitate to ask me, I love this kind of stuff :)

I you don't mind, I'd like to find a monarch to replace the Republic's President, maybe design a flag, and even figure out what areas it controls. I was also wondering; could the Aztec Empire be the one of the first to recognize the new nation? Not they'd have to do anything I was envisioning it much like our world's American Independence. The first nation to recognize the US was Morrocco, a nation that had little-to-no historical contact with the British colonies in America, and did not contribute anything to the war effort. The only thing the Aztecs would gain is another friendly nation in Europe, likewise the Greeks would get a nation they're good terms with in the Americas. Otherwise it's just a symbolic measure. Mr.Xeight 19:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I figured out that Petros Mavromichalis would rise to power in the First Hellenic Republic, as for who would replace his family at the Congress of Vienna, I don't know. Maybe they just decide to keep the family as the rulers, but marry him into some European blood. Mr.Xeight 01:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Well.......About the Greek goverment, you must decide all the details....because you are the specialist (hehe).......About the French participation during the war, well, it can be for the same objective of Russia and UK, to dismantle the Ottoman Empire.........About Greek colonies, I think that Greek colonies in Africa would be more credible for a nation that has just been born, and without much power, as well as having close enough to Africa in order to colonize it; and also that Asia is too far (don't you think?)--Ed9306 21:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback, would you mind if I made a page for AE Greece? Mr.Xeight 22:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure.......create the page...--Ed9306 23:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Nomination
Thanks. Mitro 19:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Flag
I've uploaded a corrected version of the egyptian mandate flag--Marcpasquin 19:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

hey you got problem im not going to copying from wikia anymore


 * You do not have to apologize, as some of the criticisms were justified. There is every right to question why civilization would exist in a city that has been completely and totally decimated. The idea is that, while people do live outside of the city during the first couple of years, the breakdown of law and order, along with rouge elements and bandits, drives people into the safe, yet unhealthy, conditions of former Chicago. This also results in an increasing difficulty in retrieving supplies and resources, due to almost the entire population living within the city itself. The infamous three mobs eventually form, providing security for different quarters of the city and ensuring that supplies keep flowing in, but at the same time attacking supply lines of the others. This Civil War continues until the intervention by Superior.

Superior does not annex the territory because the people do not want them there. It is kind of like relations between Iraq and the US; they are happy that we liberated them, but they do not want us to stay. Plus, Superior is already having trouble maintaining connections between the states and all of its different colonies; it does not want a massive state almost totally disconnected from the Republic.

The flag was a screw-up, and that will be fixed, though I will mainly change the color-scheme, not the design. Basically, the “red” bars symbolize the blood that was lost during the “mob wars” in the three sections of the city. The “blue” bars are the bodies of water that divide the city. The stars historically represent different times in the city’s history, though I probably should add two more. The gold star, however, represents the city’s rebirth, and the founding of the Republic of Lincoln.

The coat of arms was adopted through a referendum in honor of the ancestry of most of the Republic’s inhabitants. The compromise was that the Harp not be put upon the nation’s flag, as many state officials had originally desired to do, and I wanted to do.

I would like to discuss it in greater detail with you and whoever else lives in that area. Lahbas 04:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

House of Bourbon-Grecia
it would probably look something like this with the inescutcheon being defeced to show wich branch of the bourbon it came from.
 * for the flag, Iwould recommande the plain white cross on blue. Have you decided which bourbon house has married into the royal familly ?--Marcpasquin 14:57, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I've actually decided that Greece is given independence after the battle of Orlov, and as such during the Congress of Vienna, Charles II is given the throne of Greece, his mother the Duchy of Lucca, and Empress Josephine taking Parma. After both his mother and Josephine pass on the title to him, he rules both the duchies and Greece. Though of course with Italian Unification, he loses both and now the House of Bourbon-Grecia is now the daughter house of Bourbon-Parma. Your idea got me to thinking about what to use, and I have a few sketches. BTW, would you think it's still likely Charles II would still marry the same woman he did *here*, or marry maybe someone like a Greek noblewoman? Mr.Xeight 19:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * from what I read, it doesn't seem to have been a marriage based on love, so anything is possible.--60.242.115.64 20:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Cryptic Rédaction
I have read this article Cryptic Rédaction i can understand and speak French anyways I read it i and sorry for bieng rude but what were you talking about are you trying to understand something in French I can Help you--Owen1983 00:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

That message was private; which is why I wrote it in French. I don't really understand what you're trying to say, but if you can read French you'd know I said "I'm using Google Translate, I can't speak a word of French". The phrase "Google Translate" in a message written in French is usually a big reds flag. Call my crazy, but methinks you don't speak French, only that you're trying to find out what it means. Even no French-speakers tell you, there are some things called "Babel Fish" and "Google Translate". They don't always take into account syntax, but they get the job done. Mr.Xeight 02:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

your right
I am getting tired of this its just pointlesss I haave nothing against Dan he is a valued editor and an Admon everyone neeeds to chill out --Owen1983 16:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding New Chicago

 * Following the temporary shelving of the Republic of Lincoln, I had created a substitute in the Republic of Superior’s history, known as the Republic of Wisconsin, based out of Madison (I was hoping for a different name, but there are no others for the region, and control extends out of Madison itself). Therefore, I am not sure if this is going to conflict with your idea. Quincy had been regarded to me before as a possible location in Illinois itself. The only major problem I see to it is, depending on the time they get up there, they may be picked up by RSA patrols along the border of the Republic of Superior (which is debatable, after all, it is lines drawn on a map, always differing from one map to the next). In that case, they would be transferred to one of the many refugee camps set up along the Western Border. However, I would like to see you develop your idea further anyway, as, considering the proposed size, it would be relatively small town of a couple hundred people, maybe a couple thousand, and there is the chance they were never noticed until later. The RSREF (Republic of Superior Expeditionary Force) Wisconsin was entirely centered on Madison, and might have easily missed it. Lahbas 01:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds great, which is what I was going for. I was thinking about a sort of flag of Chicago being made from old jeans for the blue, cotton T-shirts for the white, and bits of red cloth for the stars. But as far the the proposal goes, all I want is a small town with as you said, no less than 300 and more than 3,000 inhabitants, some descendants from the bombing survivors, some from the Northwooods inhabitants that allowed the Chicagoans into their home. Do you know when the RSREF will happen onto the self-sufficient city? Mr.Xeight 02:31, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

is actually just what I was looking for; a small fort with a timber wall in a drab, coldish climate. I have to raise two concerns; one, is that copyright infringement? Two, I'd need someone to turn the tiny British flag into a Chicago one; something that might be a mammoth undertaking since the flag seen is so tiny. Mr.Xeight 02:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is hard to see, but I have found closer pictures, and found that this is what it is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British-Red-Ensign-1707.svg) A British colonial flag flown over the United States before the Revolution. If you have inkscape, you can actually take this and manipulate it to a level that is unseen in most other programs, but the file has to be SVG, like the one I gave you. I especially love it when doing makes, as most mistakes you make cannot be seen unless you zoom in by 2000%.

Regarding copyright laws, I would just consider that all “pictures” mind you, not text, is in the public domain. If you mean the fort……..I highly doubt it. 

The Republic of Superior might come across it, but then it might not. We are going to have to debate that one, because almost all the colonization efforts are happening in the East, due to the Republic of Wisconsin, the North American Union, and Thunder Bay all being located to its West. As I said before, it could be something as simple as a patrol getting lost or moving off their charted path. Just pick up any map of the area you wish to put the “town”, “fort”, pinpoint where it would be, and then we will work out its possible discovery. Lahbas 03:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... Oneida County, Wisconsin on the banks of the Chippewa River seems a good place, I doubt they'd have to worry about radiation there, the whole county has 36,000 thousand people as of 08-09, so it'd be even lower in the late 80s-early 90s so that might actually be an ideal place.
 * I just have a question; even if a car were to be hollowed out of the engine and anything else but the metal shell, seats, etc, would a small team of horses or cows be powerful enough to pull it?

Mr.Xeight 04:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

i think Oxen will be used like in medeival times they used to pull big wooden carts i think they have enouth strength to pull a hollowed out car --Owen1983 19:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would assume so. Buses are also possible, but only with a large team of oxen, horses, etc. Where you will find that many horses or oxen is the real question, though this depends entirely upon how many people are making the initial move. Lahbas 18:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Greece in Franz's World
I've seen that you have edited a few of the articles in my new TL. I wonder if you would be interested in writing the Greece article for the TL since you are obviously interested in that nation. I foresee an eventual collapse of the Ottoman Empire after another Russian-Turkish war. Its likely that Britain, France, and Italy would intervene in the war to prevent Russia from taking all of the Middle East. Greece (which already got Macedonia after the Third Balkan War) would probably be given some territory along the Turkish coast, plus Thrace and Constantinople. Though Russia would most likely love to have it I think Britain wouldn't allow it, but Greece would be a good compromise. What do you think? Mitro 00:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Funny you should ask that.
 * I've been meaning to ask you for about a week now, but I'm sure you know how that goes; homework and all that. But yes, I'd be very happy to accept your offer and find your ideas interesting. In 2009, if Greece were to take control of E Thrace (European Turkey), Constantinople alone would more than double the population.

Mr.Xeight 20:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Greece in Finland Superpower
To answer your question earlier about Greece's position in the Finland Superpower world, I have set up a page for Greece, feel free to add anything to it. Iamtheggman 22:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd be much obliged, what do you see; a republic or kingdom? Mr.Xeight 22:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Republic: the people deposed of the kingdom, or monarchy, earlier than our timeline, in 1958 (instead of 1975). In 1960, Russia did an expansionist campaign, via though the Slavic countries, in order for the country to have a 'warm water port', something they had always wanted (they invaded Afghanistan trying to get that, in our timeline). When the Russians came across Greece in 1962, the people united against the invaders. They still lost half their territory, but remained independent, and a republic. Iamtheggman 22:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't you going to work on it? (Greece (Finland Superpower)) Iamtheggman 21:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is going to be tough, Greece is the poorest country in Europe, and raising a poor nation out of poverty takes decades here. I was thinking of asking you if Greece could become a protectorate of Finland, maybe even a member state of its empire. Mr.Xeight 22:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's what I do, I copy off the history of a country from Wikipedia, then I read it (too get a good sense of how this nation ticks and works), then I compare it to my timeline, and see where everything fits, and then use the alternate timeline as a backbone for my country. For example, say one country declares war on several countries, I take a history file from one the countries, read it, and summarize the closest way of how that country would react in this war. It really works, as I have done massive pages in just hours of computer time. Try it! Iamtheggman 00:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Would you be up for a little bargaining? For instance, maybe Greece isn't a 3rd power as FS lists it as, and/or maybe even Cyprus joings Greece in an effort to combat the USSR? These are possibilities mind you, and I'm still supportive of a Finnish protectorateship. Mr.Xeight 01:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cyprus was itself invaded by Soviet Union, since they thought with an island, they could invade it from all sides of the border. But, it did not work, a strong resistance formed and drove Soviet Union out. (This happened in 1972)


 * Greece isn't really a third power, considering its people are pretty well off for a nation that lost half its land and continuously repels minor invasions. This is basically what Greece has gone through:


 * Early people's revolution of the monarchy.
 * Invasion by Soviet Union
 * Half its land lost
 * Not a third power, but close.
 * (Also anything that's listed on the infobox)


 * Those are the guidelines, everything else is up for the imagination. Iamtheggman 23:11, September 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess you're not going to work on it. Iamtheggman 00:00, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Well today was "national quiz day", so this week has been shere Hell. But I have been meaning to apologize, I haven't thought of anything productive in terms of FS Greece, just a designing a more republican-oriented flag. Mr.Xeight 00:44, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay, take your time. Iamtheggman 00:56, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I have an idea for a flag...
 * I used the Byzantine Flag as my backbone, and I tried to stick "Victory or Death, With your shield or on it" into the white squares of the top left and bottom right cantons, but my computer just isn't cooperating today. Right now I just need to lie down now and start brainstorming a different approach.

Mr.Xeight 01:36, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * A Byzantine Flag sounds interesting, you can show me what you mean, when you're computer starts working.Iamtheggman 18:11, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

What I imagined was a Byzantine Flag-esque, I thought of red for revolutionaries lost, white for righteoussness and Orthodoxy, and gold for-well everyone loves the color gold. [EDIT] I just designed a very nice flag. I have the phrase "Niki EE Thanatos, Tan H Epi Tas" (Victory or Death, With It or On It" and St. George (who's really the patron saint of nearly every European country) in the center. The main flag is white, the writing is gold, and I'm trying to think howe to include red into it. I thought maybe the horse could be red, which was the color of Saint Thimitri's horse, but I don't actually remember what he's the patron saint of, etc. Mr.Xeight 21:46, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, you can put it on the articles infobox.Iamtheggman 23:33, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I also had my first idea for FS Greece!
 * I see a rise in conservatism; afterall the most "liberal and politically superior" USSR invadaded and stole ancestral lands from Greece, why would they want any political idealogies similar to theirs? I'd have to change the president and PM, they're both from quite liberal parties.

Mr.Xeight 23:52, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Go right ahead, you know more about Greece than I do. Feel free to add anything. Iamtheggman 06:15, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Idea?
If there was a greater Muslim (or maybe the Aragonese did not enter into personal, or France, basically any empire) threat to Spain, thus weakening it and not allowing to pay Columbus to sail to "Japan", would it be possible that the Aztecs were not conquered by the Spanish; but the British? Maybe after the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 instead of Britain solidifying its naval power in the North Atlantic, they would be able to sail west of the established Indies and onto Aztec soil. Or maybe instead of this theory, the Spanish are routed once and for all on the Sad Night and post Sp. Armada defeat England decides its strong enough to take on the Aztecs.


 * Thoughts, comments, ideas, criticism?

Mr.Xeight 02:52, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Franz's World
My process of creating the history of the individual nation first and the TL second, means that I do not have a definite idea of what the world political situation is yet. If you have any specific questions I may be able to answer you. Also there will not be any World Wars in this TL, it is one of the major themese of this TL. I will take a look at Greece soon as well to see what you have done, I have just been busy as of late. Mitro 23:31, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

I completely understand, I've been having one of the worst school years to date this year, and I'm drowning in homework. I'm sorry though, I didn't mean to pester you. Don't worry about looking into it, this is your TL, not mine, and I'm still thrilled you let me into it and giving virtually no constraints on my creative process :D Mr.Xeight 00:24, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus (1983: Doomsday)
Are you planning on doing anymore work on Cyprus (1983: Doomsday)? I'm trying to clear out the proposal category because of its size. Mitro 16:50, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Map of Franz's World
A world map would be nice, thanks. Here are the answers to some of your questions:


 * The Irish Free State does not include Northern Ireland, that is a part of the UK.
 * India does include those nations mentioned. See India.
 * Those other members of the IFB should be ok. If you think there may be other feel free to list them.
 * Korea and Taiwan are still a part of Japan.
 * Its actually called the "Pan-Asian League." Member include Japan (which controls Taiwan and Korea directly), Manchuria, Philippines, Siam, and Indochina. I'm not sure if Indonesia and its neighbors might be members. Feel free to add them if it makes sense.
 * Greece is a strong ally of Britain, I doubt anyone would want to war with it.
 * Russia in this universe is pretty much the pre-Revolution Russia though it has a few autonomous territories that should be mentioned. See the Timeline.
 * Tibet is independent. Also there will be a Uyghuristan.

Feel free to work the map in which way you think best. I will suggest corrections if I think it conflicts with the TL I am trying to create. Mitro 20:46, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Here are my comments and questions:
 * What is with the different color schemes for the Commonwealth nations. I think one shade for all of them is best.
 * Brazil will not control Uruguay. They haven't done so in OTL and I don't think history has change enough to make it likely.
 * As you pointed out the borders of Europe don't match the pre-WWI borders of Europe. If I may suggest, you might want to try this site for a good template map: http://www.lordsander.net/maps.htm
 * Austria-Hungary should control Bosnia.
 * Why did you choose those African territories to remain French?
 * Portugal colonies should be split between Germany and Britain, I plan for Portugal to go bankrupt and to have Germany and Britain carry out their plan to purchase the colonies.
 * Give South Africa all of Britain's South Africa territories.
 * Why does Ethiopia control Somalia?
 * Afghanistan would not be under Russian control. By the time of the POD it was already British influenced and I don't see that changing.

Mitro 22:28, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Iglesias ortodoxas en Chile
¿Has visto esta página?. Creo que te puede ayudar. --JorgeGG 02:39, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Name and Map
Is your name really John Constantine? Like the comic book character?

On another note, I saw your map and I have a few questions and comments but due to the late hour I am going to leave it for another day. Thanks again for your work. Mitro 05:35, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yes it is, but I've never heard of anyone in a comic named "John Constantine", would you be able to tell me what comic it is? And I did notice some mistakes on there, such as Italy and Germany & Poland. 14:10, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Constantine. Mitro 18:40, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

Historia alternativa
practicar, español, disfrutar historias alternas? porque no estas alla? dale tanto ingles me esta comiendo la cabeza, cree vareias historias en español, un poco de ayuda para hacerlas crecer vendrian muy bien. comenza un titulo nuevo en español (agrega Historia Alternativa a favoritos), algo q tengas en ingles aqui y sera un placer hacerlo crecer alli, posdata este mensaje a sido copiado y pegado asi que pùede tener mala redaccion, your spanish is not the problem. a good idea about your place in the world is welcome--Fero 18:59, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

sorry about the typo but You are begining to get on my nerves see here http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:1983:_Doomsday#Religion:_Unification_of_Orthodox.2FCatholic_Church_.3F

and here http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Mitro#It.27s_not_me.

Catholic Church
I noticed you marked it for deletion and you stated that nearly every world was spelled wrong there are no spelling mistakes The reason it was left is a user suggested reubfucation with the orthadox church I am interested in this idea so please remove the delete taf --Owen1983 17:29, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

That's the thing, Owen, you're wrong!
 * It's "Orthodox Church", not "orthadox cherch" or however the Hell you spelled it! You need to learn that you are really getting on the nerves of others. You know what I did when I realized I was a menace to various internet groups? I found someone who could help me so I didn't scream out whatever the Hell I wanted. You need to find one of those.

Mr.Xeight 23:36, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Revert?
Why did you revert my edit on 1983: Doomsday? All of those article had been graduated so I was listing them on the main page like ususal. Mitro 13:36, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Mitro, that's impossible. I would never do that, you know me; yet there it is, in my list of contributions. The only thing I can think of is that when I pressed the history tab (which I do frequently to read added material) I must have accidentally pressed "rollback". I'm so sorry for that, I had no intention. Mr.Xeight 14:13, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, I figured it was an accident but I wanted to double check in case I was mistaken. That rollback button can cause problems, I made a similar mistake on the WCRB news page. Mitro 18:02, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Vostochny Cosmodrome
Umm,why did you revert the change? It's still a proposal and I wrote the article, I just added a link to a page previously mentioned--Vladivostok 16:45, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

MR X you should have asked vlad if he want the change to the article revertin before going ahead and messing with others work please revert the changes and ask next tim OK --Owen1983 17:02, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Vlad, that edit truly wasn't me. I've left a message on the main talk page explaining everything, and I'm truly sorry to whatever's been happening.
 * And Owen, shut up! You have no authority around here, no one respects you, and you've vandalized on your own free volition before!

Mr.Xeight 19:46, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok, no problem Mr.Xeight, I just couldn't figure out what I did wrong in the article, no harm done.--Vladivostok 21:18, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

please accept my apologie
mat told me about somone has got access to your account what i suggest you do is go here

Proposition
Hey Mr. Xeight. Well, from the looks of things you've resolved your security troubles :) That's really good to hear. Anyways, now that you're back, I have a small proposition for help with my the Superpowers timeline. I'll tell you more about it if you're interested. I'll tell you though it is definitely Greek related :) more specifically though, it has to do with the Greek language. Just contact me if you want to help. Red VS Blue 23:46, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful. I've made a link to an Achaea page on the one of the Roman Empire, so that's ready for whenever you want to make the page :). Anyway, the Proposition I have is that I was wondering if you could make a Greek section for the Translations page. As I've said, Greek is a popular language for the upper and middle class in the TL and I figure many words would have come into common use, despite being still entirely Greek words. So kinda like how now we use Latin in everyday speech, like de jure or subpoena, even though we're still speaking English. You can add any terms you want, though keep in mind that this isn't a vocabulary for the language, just terms that are in use by Latin citizens. So pick words for whatever reason you want, historical significance, sounds interesting, you like the word, etc.

Oh, one more thing. I'm gonna be putting up a flag for the Roman Empire, and I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

Thank you very much for this. Red VS Blue 00:53, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, these are words I've just thought of now. So, what do you think? Mr.Xeight 01:25, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hrysostomos-which means "Gold-Mouth". I'd think it would have something to do with politics, maybe the Head-Senator in Rome, or of the Provinces. Like the US' Speaker of the House.
 * Kleftis/Kleftoi-It means thief. I'd picture this to be a slang word.
 * Presbyter-Used instead of "priest".
 * Ierapostolos-Used instead of "missionary", derived from the Greek word for "Apostle".

Oh, the flag, I'm so happy you asked!
 * I have to be quick so I apologize, I'd envision a red flag with a 2 headed Eagle (Rome and Constantinople, thought it may have to be 3 for Carthage), grasping the world in it's hand. The Palaiologos Crest on Wikipedia is close to what I imagine, and the Flag of the Greek Orthodox Church as well. In one hand you could have the world, and the other the sword. Oh and instead of the Byzantine Empire style crown, I'd think a gold laurel-wreath that the average person associates with Emperors might be best. Good luck! I might suggest purple, but that's too somber of a color for me.

Mr.Xeight 01:30, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I'll put up the Greek section for the Translations page as soon as possible, and I'll add those, and any other words you happen to think of :) haha well by opinion on the flag I meant the one I had made already :P Still, I really like the ideas you've got there. I'll try to apply them as best as possible, though I'm using Paint so it'll be a bit of challenge to say the least lol. Your suggestion about the eagle is perfect though cause I was thinking the eagle in my flag was too bland, and needed some kind of distinguishing feature. Thanks again :) Red VS Blue 01:57, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Im glad your back Mr X
great news that a well respected editor has returned to 1983 Doomsday --Owen1983 22:41, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Anon edits
Anon edits shouldn't be reverted just because they were made by an anon. For example, the Kurdistan article in 1983: Doomsday was empty. As long as the person follows the editorial guidelines they should be allowed to edit. Now if they were to change established canon, such as how that same anon did to Egypt, that is a whole other story. Mitro 15:14, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoa slow down there Mr. X. Some of those edits you reverted on Egypt were Louis' and furthermore I kind of agree with the anon. I really don't think Israel would fire its nukes during or immediately after DD and the Israel article that was graduated to canon seems to support that idea. I think we should discuss this first, hence why I marked it as a proposal. Mitro 00:36, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply to your first edit, this holiday season has been Hell, you of all people know how Chicagoans and our weather can be.
 * If they're Dan's, I apologize. What I'm mad about is that a person who doesn't even take the time to create an account and establish himself to the community just charges in and makes edits he's discussed only with himself. You know I hate people like that; I myself could have just wrote a huge Greek empire ruling the Med with an iron fist, I could have written my idea of complete Greek subjugation of Sicily, but I did not; I discussed and fine-tuned my ideas and created a happier community. Until he establishes himself and gives us the courtesy, I'm more than content to undo his edits.


 * I've also been meaning to ask you; what's the technology's like in Franz's World? There's the old saying "Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.", which seems real with no World Wars. But you mentioned Japan overcompensated the small size of its empire with building technology, and the main page says that technology isn't so much behind us as it went a different way. Does FW have the iPod, the plasma screen TV, corner-shot weapons, etc? I'd also like to apologize for harrassing you about Greek colonies, my intention wasnever to make you uncomfortable, so I apologize again.

Mr.Xeight 00:56, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

I accept
I would love to help you with this Time-line. But expect me to be busy sometimes, as I have to work on homework and my own timeline as well.


 * Damn, looks like Kagemoto beat me to it :P In any case, I accept as well, my current timeline is large enough that I can take a little less focus off it, so this would be an interesting change. Besides, I now mostly just write there when something good comes to me.

One thing which I think will especially help is I have this book called "What if?" that details several alternate histories through different academic essays. Anyway, one of the essays is about a possible Chinese colonialism over a century before Columbus' voyage. It was actually my favourite alt history in the book and so I'd be more than happy to co-create a timeline that's in similar spirit :D Red VS Blue 04:48, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

oops, I kinda forgot to sign my name... But anyway, that makes four of us, right? Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 05:05, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Four? You (Kagemoto), me (Red) and X. Who's the fourth? Red VS Blue 15:24, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

That's great! Thank you, you guys! Now what I was thinking was that we butterfly the An-Shi Rebellion away. The instigator lived in the barracs I believed, disease can kill him off. Now I believe the Tang were in power then, though it might be the Song (just looked it up, it's the Tang). So without this, the Tang wouldn't be greatly weakened, which means they can build up. Now some-time later, they could be powerful enough to expand. Which leads me to a dilemma; do they want to expand west to European and Persian markets? Or East to the Indies? I was thinking they go west in the 11-1200s, and they interact with the Byzantines, other Europeans, Arabs, Persians, etc. In the 1400s (their dying days I would assume. A seven-hundred year empire is long enough) a Columbus-type figure has a crazy idea, instead of going west and using the Byzantine Suez-Canal (that'll be explained later I suppose), or around Africa (I'd love to see Chinese colonies in Africa, maybe around the Cape of Good Hope), they decide to sail east, through whatever they call the Pacific, and end up in California. Though of course after they lost their western conquests and putting too much of their resources into building up their African & American colonies, they collapse into various city-states, and eventually the Japanese lap up what's left. Thoughts, ideas, additions, criticisms? Mr.Xeight 16:37, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, here are some other ideas I was thinking of. If the Chinese go west, they can help the Europeans. The Turks going ino Anatolia might actually be forced somewhere else, or else accept the Emperor in old Constantinople. You have Greek manipulation and Chinese strongarm tactics, they might choose to go north, or curiously as I was thinking, northwest, into say the Pannonian Basin (that encompasses Hungary, Transylvania, Galicia, and bits of Serbia, Croatia, ad Bosnia). I was thinking the Crusades, with Chinese help would be immensely successful, and with no Battle of Mankizert (very bad for Byzantium), no crusades turning on the Greeks, and strong allies, Byzantium could even go on to re-conquer North Africa later on (the Levant would be make up of Crusader states, no doubt a mix of Greek, Western European, and Chinese sovereignty), build a Suez Canal that would widely control trade there and halt any reason to search for America, at least for some-time. Eventually Portugal would go on to circumnavigate Africa, discover the Chinese settlements, do something to them (maybe try to conquer them), and Spain would then find someone else to go west, Columbus was old and arthritic even in 1492. Mr.Xeight 17:06, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

In OTL, An Lushan rose to power by fighting against the Khitans, so in this Time Line An Lushan could have been killed while fighting the Khitans and so the rebellion never happened. However, the question is not where the Chinese want to expand, it's why they want to suddenly expand. Perhaps legend says that a Tang Emperor dreamed of a large empire, and began conquering Tibet and Mongolia. There has to be a reason. After that are hundreds of years of undecided events (perhaps China starts conquering the Middle East). That Columbus-like figure would be Zheng He, who in OTL was a famous Ming Dynasty admiral and eunuch. Chinese hegemony around the world is pretty lame, no offense. You have to remember how strong Byzantine and the Islamic empires were. I expect the Mongol Empire to be present as well, although it would be weaker as it was unable to conquer China and the Middle East. Also, the Germanic tribes of Europe played an important role in European and world history. I'm sure the Chinese wouldn't help the Europeans, they have no reason to actually. They would try to force the Europeans into submission, to "pacify all under heaven". Please also understand that quick communications like phones and those stuff weren't invented then, so it would be INCREDIBLY hard to run an empire that large for so long. The Mongol Empire lasted less than a century before it collapsed into several independent Khanates. Also, I suggest you put the PoD to a later date. If you make the PoD on a date thousands of years ago you will have to slowly build thousands of years of history, and that is a really hard thing to do. My XI: Serica & Romanum timeline's second PoD was only 600 years before the 21st Century, and look how much work I have to do! Speaking of my timeline, I would like some help on it as well, after we agree on and establish the base of this timeline. Cheers for our Alternate Histories!--Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 23:48, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Zheng He! That's the man I was trying to remember that started Chinese colonialism in the ATL from that book. I was a little bothered cause I couldn't remember it :P Anyway, from my research into that, during Zheng He's early years, the Chinese had the largest navy in the world, their Treasure Ships having been the largest wooden ships ever built. This should just give you a little idea of what I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zheng_He%27s_ship_compared_to_Columbus%27s.jpg. So if Zheng He's colonialism happens, I imagine that the Chinese would create a coastal-ly dominant empire, similar to the British of the 1700's and 1800's. The Indonesian islands would be colonized by the Chinese, and the Southeast Asia's east coast (ie Vietnam) would be conquered to increase control of the area.

As for the Byzantines and the Caliphates, the latter would probably get the short end of the stick. If China tried expanding into the Muslim world, during the crusades, this would put the muslims in a most unfavorable position. So, depending on the time period, permanent crusader kingdoms or the Byzantines would take over that strech of the Middle East where Jerusalem is located. I can't see a new Byzantine domination of Egypt however, Islam there was too strong by that time and no control over it could be held for long. The Chinese on the other hand would have less problems controlling muslim territory due to their previous experience with them in their home lands, and in Indonesia.

Oh, as for Chinese colonization of America, that would probably happen some time around 1420's-1430's. Definitely before Zheng He dies, but a while after colonization of Indonesia was underway. Also, the Chinese did historically reach Somalia, so a colony would be founded there, bringing them into trade with the Byzantines through the Suez Canal X mentioned.

I can't wait to get this timeline up and running :D

Cheerio

Red VS Blue 00:16, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Arabs are a proud race, I don't think they can be easily controlled. And also, Zheng He died in 1433, and he was appointed as the admiral in 1405. If he lived longer, he could have explored the Americas (by going up north to Alaska; to go straight across the Pacific Ocean would be too far). Zheng He only had a limited supply of men, he couldn't have colonized Somalia with a small number of sailors. If he had lived much longer that might have been possible. Also, about Mr. Xeight's "Genghis Khan Who?" page, there is a section called "The An-Shi Rebellion". In it, it says the Chinese colonists 'breeding the natives out'. Chinese people aren't rats. They can't possibly do that. And also, even in ancient times, overpopulation was a problem, as it caused famines.--Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 00:41, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

It seems my AH is more ASB than I imagined. After I read everything of Kagemoto's, it appears than the only diagnosis is a complete redo. The title of the project was just to show the Genghis Khan was a nobody, the Chinese took his place as transcontinental conquerors, and I believed I killed off his grandfather. The breeding out I completely forgot about, though maybe that's the reason the Chinese do expand. Perhaps we might look at lebensraum for a second, if we get rid of the An-Shi Rebellion, that's another 33-36 million people alive in China, in 3 generations, there's quite a bit more people than here's China. Famine is a big reality. Maybe the Chinese want the grazing grounds of the Mongols and Turkic Tribes. An Emperor might use the excuse his people are starving and the whole spheel about that it's the Divine Right of the Han Chinese to expand, dating all the way back to the Mandate of Heavan that says the people can revolt against emperors who cannot lead. These displaced peoples who create a tremor across Europe, they'd all rush west, away from the Chinese. Europe might be permanently scarred, there goes my idea of a Grand Europe. I don't think the Chinese could live to see the 1400s now, afterall if we look at the Mongols, they lived fast & hard, their empire lasted I believe 70 years before Ghenghis Khan's sons each wanted daddy's throne and split the empire. From then on in Mongolia was forever cast out of the international scene. If they even make it the 1400s, I don't think they could spare a Turkic slave to sail around the east for them. As I said above, we MUST redo the whole timeline, it's shoddy. I've alos thought about the other comments about Kagemoto. I thought that if the Spanish could cross the Atlantic, the Chinese could cross the Pacific. I guess I was wrong, dead wrong. The Aleutians are small, they couldn't really support a major Chinese colony. They might be like the Russians, only use the waters for fishing and the forests for wood. Thoughts, criticims, diagnoses (which actually is the plural of "diagnosis", I looked it up)? Mr.Xeight 01:42, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

You're right, the emperors would want the grazing grounds. That would be a good excuse for any emperor to invade other territories. I suggest a plot where Genghis Khan is killed while trying to unite the Mongols, and so the Mongols are greatly weakened. The PoD would take place at the same time as the Song Dynasty (a dynasty I am familiar with- I did extensive research on the Song Dynasty when I was setting up the basic outlines of my timeline). From there, we could say the Song managed to overcome the Jurchen/Manchu Jinn Dynasty and also conquer Mongolia and Eastern Siberia. They would then form an effective cavalry from the captured horses. Then they would expand towards Europe after 'discovering' an alternate way to the west (besides the Silk Road)(another possible Chinese victim is Tibet, although I already have that as a part of my timeline, so to distinguish yours from mines and create an original piece we should avoid the idea of China invading Tibet for the moment, originality is important. A war takes place between the Russians and the Chinese. You can decide what will happen. I dislike alternate histories that center on only one group, like this AH about the Chinese Empire I once saw. In that TL, the Chinese suddenly, unexpectedly, and unreasonably conquers the world somehow. The last part was the worst. "Robert The Bruce rebelled and sailed to Beijing and besieged it. After a bloody battle, the Chinese win and the Chinese empire lasts forever." You see? And anyway, Zheng He wasn't scorned upon as a Turkic slave. He was captured by the Ming army and made a eunuch at the age of 11 (according to Wikipedia; may or may not accurate). As part of services to the Ming Emperor, he was given the Chinese name and in 1405 was sent on his first naval expedition. We can only assume he was favored by the Emperor because of his high intelligence or cleverness, and even if the Song Dynasty survived to then he probably would have been appointed. But there's a problem as Zheng He was only there because his grandfather served in the Yunnan Mongol garrison (the precious Yuan Dynasty put them there), and in this time-line the Mongols are defeated and never establish the Yuan...--Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 00:05, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

There must certainly be some way, though perhaps slightly outlandish, that would allow for the person of Zheng He to arrive in China. I don't know his history, but if he's a turk than his having been born would most likely not be affected by a lack of a Mongol Empire. A conquest of his homelands by the Chinese ATL could lead to his capture, and then his appointment to the royal court. This is just a potential idea anyway. Red VS Blue 00:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there would be any significant reason for Zheng He to be there if his granddaddy was in the Mongol army. And also, even if he somehow ends up there, he wouldn't have been captured and made a eunuch because a revolt by the Mongol remnants wouldn't have taken place.

Sorry I haven't been able to respond in a few days, next week is final's week :/
 * I'm for Kagemoto's idea of the Chinese wanting Mongolian grazing grounds and that's why they expand, but we need a valid reason why. So I suppose if we go with Genghis Khan dying whilst trying to unify the Mongols, and China moving in to prime Mongolian real-estate. However I think that's as far as they'd go. Typically (I might be over-generalizing) but the Olde Empires of the Chinese tend to built up, not out. They're content with what they have, not like us damned Europeans who take, and take, and take and then move on when the money's gone. So once they get the lands of the Mongols (maybe even the Jurchen), they might move to modernize, not conquer-ize. However, maybe later on the Chinese could go west (well easr), through the route Kagemoto proposed. Though the Chinese were great mariners, maybe they might trace the western coast of North America. I've looked into (I know it's a myth, but still) and . I was also thinking. I was also thinking that the Chinese might look into Indonesia, not neccessary colonizing it, but establishing economic strongholds there. Who knows, they might even leave a significant amount of their culture into the Indonesia one, we might even see in the 2000 Census saying Indonesia is 86% Mahayana Buddhist instead of Muslim.
 * As for Zheng He, I suppose it might be someone else who becomes a great sailor, I mean it's not like he would be the only person in the world of the Chinese to become a sailor and have some conspiracy theories saying he established a colony in the Americas in 1421. Kagemoto, I'd also like o agree with you this AH won't focus solely on the Chinese, I love Greece and Europe too much :D
 * I also would like to apologize that I didn't reply to helping you sooner My expertise is Greece (which I'm sure you know why :D), but I'd like to venture out to Western Europe as well.

Mr.Xeight 01:53, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they could modernize with their traditional Confucian values... the traditional values called for people to study the works of ancient 'sages' and dead famous people, and discouraged creativity. I don't think they would allow modernizing. In my opinion, the reasons why the Europeans were (and are) so damn good at killing and making new technology are: 1.) the competition and rivalry between several European states during the Middle Ages to colonial times. 2.) the traveling they did. When they traveled, they discovered new customs and ideas, like Greek and Muslim ideas. This is how the Modern Age of Europe began, I suppose. (the mountains of Tibet discouraged the Chinese from traveling too much on land) 3.) Europe is made up of many different cultures and conflicting religions, unlike the Chinese hegemony in the Far East. Mr. Xeight, I think you should know the reason why Greek democracy started. I know how Chinese monarchy started; it started with the tribes of Huangdi and Yandi. After a few hundred years of absolute Shang rule, the Zhou kings took over. Then came the Spring and Autumn Period, and the Warring States Period and Confucius. Later came the tyrannical Qin Dynasty and the peaceful Han Dynasty. By the end of Han it was already several hundred years of absolute monarchy and belief in the "divine right to rule"-like concept. Compare this with the beginning of Greek civilization to the development of Greek democracy and I'm sure you'll find something different. --Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 02:37, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting points. I do completely agree that China would have a hard time expanding over land. It's what is considered, in geopolitics, as an island. It's surrounded on all sides by impassable terrain : the Himalayas, the South-East Asian jungles, the Siberian tundra and Mongol Steppes and then the Ocean of course. This leaves the only plausible line of expansion being across what is now their border with Kazhakstan. They could expand a little through the Mongol steppes, but no real civilization can firmly establish themselves there. I figure if we want to see how the Chinese could expand, we should get a good map showing all the geography of Asia, showing rivers, terrain and the like. It would make this a lot easier.

As for how Chinese colonization will start without Zheng He or the dynasty he was part of, I'll leave that up to you two. I can't think of anything good at the moment.

I'd be more than happy to really develop the effects on European history of this timeline later. It will be a fun undertaking I can imagine.

Red VS Blue 03:25, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the Grand Duchy of Russia
Of course! I always use Wikipedia when summarizing events that happen both before and after the PoD. I'd like you to adhere to the OTL actual Grand Duchy of Moscow most of the time. The only main differences are that they defeated the Mongols quicker than they did in the OTL, and that it participated in the First Silk War. Also, please write it in your own words, because if we don't then we're just really repeating the same things over and over again. Thanks again!Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 01:57, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

I am nt taking down anything
Owen1983 15:57, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

hey!!
hello.....I think I'll need ur help with a brazil's page on mi TL please =D Aztec Empire --Ed9306 01:50, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi....I would prefer a brazilian kingdom.....no very powerfull......but still being a kingdom.......about greece...... think the idea of a powerfull greece is great....but it maybe had a lot of changes during the WWI againist the otoman emopire

by the way.....ur spanish is well.....but try to make it less formal....u trated me like an old man hehe.......bt it still be great! :) --Ed9306 06:30, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello......ur ideas seems fantastic to me....but I need to read them before all....so.....can u make the article? so I can read and then we can chat about it.....(i really liked the idea of a Spain in revolution......Navarras and aragon's revolutions with no succes......cataluña's revolution succes!)--Ed9306 04:23, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

About Brazil
I have just created the article of brazil in the Aztec empire TL.........but i just made the nation info chart........now is your turn to write the history about brazil........is there any war between bazil and incas?? finish the article please :D --Ed9306 21:20, February 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I liked all ur ideas, seems great to me =D ; the wars and a powerful Brazil......but there is a detail....I don't understand Brasil puede ser mas de los Estados Unidos brazil can be more from USA?...........The Republic of Catalunya and Aragon > La República de Cataluña y Aragón. I perfectly know the Triple Alliance War (they taught me that at school) so it can be funny creating it with those diferences......By the way> slavery=esclavitud..... slave=esclavo...... issue=asunto......... loyal=leal....... Los incas instead las incas........ in english there only exists one conjunction:and.....but in spanish we have y and e....both meaning and..... but when the next word starts with an 'i' sound u need to use e: for example....un Brasil mas blanco e indio, instead: un Brasil mas blanco y indio........I hope this is usefull for u =D--Ed9306 05:37, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * The noblity issues are in your dependents; about black people in brazil....it's a good idea, but I can't give mozambique to Brazil cus I've already created a country ocupaying that space: UNEA =D--Ed9306 18:09, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Panthenopean Republic
this article was created by me but i was'nt loggidin the IP was 82.57.95.78 --Owen1983 02:27, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Laying it on awfully thick, wouldn't you say? You can't block people anyway, can you? Benkarnell 02:33, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Only because I have a rather selfish vendetta to fill. I cannot, but I hope someone would because he still does have a dozen pages he said he contributed to when in reality he hasn't even touched. Mr.Xeight 02:43, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ghenghis Khan Who? What?
Hey X. I've just been popping on and off this site to write my articles, and now that I finally have a little vacation, I've settled down to check how things have been doing. Anyway, I've noticed that it's been pretty stagnant for the past two months. Though I of course take some blame for not having engaged in it for some time, I have no illusions that I was more than the third biggest contributor to it. In any case, you can answer this whenever you have the time, I'm not really in any particular hurry, I'm a slow methodical writer, so you can take your time.

As an aside, since I'm always looking for second opinions, I was wondering what you thought of my recent addtitions to my own Superpowers timeline. I've been making little additions to the detailed timeline pages and I'm still not sure on how good their quality is.

Thank you and good day :)

Red VS Blue 15:00, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

I have vacation as well, so I have plenty of time to write articles. I request that both of you stop editing or writing the articles in my timeline, as I prefer to do it independently. However, you can always comment on it on my talk page.

Meanwhile, we haven't worked on Genghis Khan Who? very much. Kagemoto vi Brooklyn 01:07, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks your concern, guys. I too have a three-day weekend, but with Monday being my birthday and having a ton of homework, I'm swamped for the weeken. I think Genghis Khan Who is done before it started. You two both have your own TLs that are growing significantly, and I'm attached to too many other TLs at once, and then highschool and a birthday to the mix. And Red, I would love to look over your new changes, but today is supposed to be my day of homework and Sunday is when I'm going out for my birthday dinner because Monday begins Great Lent (a dinner without animal products, wine, or olive oil doesn't sound very appetizing, does it?) And how have you two been, I noticed your TLs are coming along wonderfully. Mr.Xeight 19:58, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I see. Well it's good to at least know that book's been closed then. I guess we did get a little too caught up in the initial planning and basically just blocked ourselves like that :( Quite a shame.

Well of course, you can throw in comments any time, there's certainly no urgency for it :P

Anyway, I wish you a Happy Birthday, and I hope you don't aggravate yourself too much with all the work you've got :P

Have a nice weekend, both of you.

Red VS Blue 00:06, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

2010 Olympics
If you get the chance, please check out the new page on the 2010 Winter Olympics (1983: Doomsday). I wrote a description of the Torch lighting and relay through Greece that touches on your area. Benkarnell 17:52, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK. Well, the Torch Lighting has been a part of the Olympic ceremonies for a long time, and there would have been a lot of comment if it didn't go forward in the traditional way. But on the other hand, hm, if Moreos is "that way" (and it sounds like there may be a component of religious fundamentalism to boot)... I don't know. It sounds like they'd be really opposed to it. Maybe the Torch Lighting would be held somewhere else, or maybe they just dispensed with the usual togas and lit the Torch in modern athletic wear, or something.
 * Actually, that does add an interesting angle to this whole thing. And that also makes the Kerkyrans' trireme voyage to the Morelan coast a sort of insight into Greek politics. What better way to stick it to them than by invading their shore with a trireme! Benkarnell 18:43, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

I actually think that the most realistic thing to do is to have the rather-grumpy ruling party grumble about it in secret. Afterall, can you imagine what'll happen when the whole world is denied the opening to athletic compeitions that can bring the world together after a nuclear Holocaust and the world has been without such games it seems to love for nearly 20 years? They'd be up the necks in international incidents! They might be rather bad people, but I suppose they're not complete loonies. Mr.Xeight 18:54, February 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, so most of that is moot points now? OK, I don't have to change anything :). So is this Nikolaos Michaloliakos the Despot now? As far as style of address goes, even if "Despot" is closer to "Lord" than "Duke" in the traditional Byzantine structure, I can't imagine Nikolaos would accept a demotion in the name of historical accuracy. "Lordship" sounds like how you'd address someone who owns a fairly ordinary sort of manor, not a sovereign like "Highness". Maybe Nikolaos actually uses some sort of Byzantine style of address, which is translated as "Highness" or something similar in Western languages. WP makes it sound like the Byzantines used an elaborate system of titles and styles, but doesn't go into detail. So I don't know what he'd likely choose. Benkarnell 04:06, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I've been playing around with ideas for a flag of Moreos. This one takes the "meander" symbol on the Party's flag and extends the ends of the symbol to the edges of the flag, like the crosses on early Greek Republic flags. The colors are red and gold to feel more "Byzantine" than "Nzi". I also have a version in blue and white. And it's textured... I've been sort of obsessed with textures lately, and can upload a more normal-looking one if you prefer. Is this a good idea? Benkarnell 05:04, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I have to say, either which one is chosen, it's a beautiful picture and thank you :D
 * Now these guys aren't Byzantine-lovers like I'd think, they're more into the ancient ways BS (I'm actually one of the biggest haters of Ancient Greek culture you'll ever find. Surprising, I know). So in reality they might want to choose the blue and right. But then again they need to keep power by appeasing the people, they did it before my rejecting their neo-pagan roots and accepting a corrupted Christianity, much like some Nazi parties do today. So they might go back to both equally. So my vote is for the red and gold. HOWEVER, you are the creator, and I think it's ultimately up to you; you've already done the Saltire, I trust your decision either way. And the texture is fine, in reality flags are all clothy like the ones above, not two dimensional ones like displayed on the site!

Mr.Xeight 01:31, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just don't understand that - I guess it's because I was one of those kids who was captivated by the myths when I was around 9 and basically never looked back :). The philosphy, the architecture... Anyway, I think they're not likely to go out of their way to emphasize the Byzantine heritage (the name of the Despotate does that quite enough already). Blue and white are the default colors of Greece if you ask me. But you like the basic design? Benkarnell 02:09, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, thanks and you're welcome. As for the flag idea, the shape came from that neo-Nazi party's flag. I just changed the red-white-black colors to something more Greek. Benkarnell 18:55, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Unstable Earth
Yeah, you can join. Welcome! Dr. 8-Bit 00:40, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer 1453 to Oghuz; there's probably a US, as my guiding principle is to make ATL as similar as possible to OTL while still keeping all PODs (thus there was most likely an Etruscan Empire which acted as the Roman Empire, etc.) There's almost certainly a Britain as there have been no changes to remove it; though because London was founded by Romans the capital might be in a different city. (Or London might exist with the etymology being from Etruscan rather than Latin.) I also like the moving around ethnicities idea. Dr. 8-Bit 01:46, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Aragon idea does indeed sound interesting, even though the only main changes are purely linguistic; as a language geek, it'd be hard for me not to find that interesting. :) Dr. 8-Bit 04:03, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

As I said earlier, I'm treating the original POD as if it causes barely any changes - essentially, the Etruscans replace the Romans, and conquer the same areas; Etruscance languages replace Romance languages, but are very similar to Romance (being Italic; they also have the same sound changes to derive them from Etruscan as it would take to derive a Romance language from Latin; i.e. if you know all the sound changes that caused Latin to become Portuguese in OTL, you can apply those to Etruscan to get ATL's Portuguese.) The only real change is that Mushroomism - worship of the Mushroom God - is a major faith, replacing Christianity. A map would be useful, and because new PODs can spring up at any time, you shouldn't wait until we have every POD. I think you should hop in and start editing the world! Dr. 8-Bit 23:47, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds logical, and could make for some interesting crusade-style wars, and the existence of Christianity means that there might still be a World War II, with Mushroomian Nazi Germany persecuting Christians instead of Jews. I'm not sure whether you should Judaize or Christianize Arabia, however. Also, Aragon might become the same religion as the Arabs due to Arabic conquests. Also, in your world map, what do the red and yellow represent? Dr. 8-Bit 01:30, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Toyotomi Japan
I offer my services in the area of the history of Britain and her empire. I can also make some good maps. The offers there. Bob 20:12, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oh no, I realise that Britain itself has long since disintegrated. I just thought that I could help on some of the past history stuff. You know create former countries pages. That kind of thing. Bob 12:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I habe had an idea. How about we split up a page like England for example into it's former nations like the Republic of Great Britain. I think it would make things a lot more concise because the England page includes the aforementioned former country despite the fact that it included Scotland and Ireland. It just makes more sense. Bob 18:28, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The new pages that I have created are at the moment entirely established histroy. I will add more details later and maybe add my own nation. But I am happy for now. Bob 19:10, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking about doing a page for a British government-in-exile that would inevitably be formed thanks to all the revolutions my homeland has had. What do you think? Bob 22:10, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

That is no Quebecois flag it is a British republican flag. Try researching things before you get angry with me. Besides the quantity of flags is minute in the TL. If no one can be bothered to put flags on thats not my problem. And who is Mr. Dan, user wise. Your manners are admirable but is damn confusing. I apologise if I had a bish. Bob 17:34, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

WEWW
Would you like me to delete the other articles in the TL? Mitro 23:53, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll just delete the aritlces. The images themselves will remain on the wiki. Mitro 05:07, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

A Viking Civilization
I appreciate the edit, my mistake. However, I would also like to thank you for your interest and invite you to contribute to the timeline, as I made it with the intention of it being a fully open TL. I've looked over some of your other work and you seem to make solid, well-thought out AltHists. KingSweden 00:35, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

If you ever have the time or the inclination, feel free to edit away - remember, the idea is a world where England does not exist because the Vikings overran the Isles and made it a Nordic culture. How does this effect the rest of Europe? I look forward to seeing what you can come up with KingSweden 16:25, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Also...
I can see that Greece and the Mediterranean are your specialties. Would you mind having a look at my larger TL Napoleon's World and recommending what I can do in this territory? I envisioned a nominally Turkish-controlled Greece and a "Roman Republic" in southern Italy that splits the leadership of the country between a President/Consul and the Pope. Let me know what you think, this is your area. KingSweden 00:42, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

I figured that Napoleon's efforts to control continental Europe would require assistance from alterior powers - a nominal alliance with Turkey against Russia would have been worth forgoing the Greek freedom fighters. My intention was also to have Turkey and France fight several minor wars, and over time have the ethnic minorities in eastern Europe, having seen the French Imperial treatment of Russia, come to fear France. Since this is a TL defined by its "Super-Nations," it would be considered the norm in modern day to live in a country not completely linguistically or culturally hegemonous. Keep in mind, much of European nationalism and the idea of the "nation state" was fueled by competing European powers. Since there is only ONE European power in this TL, I found it safe to assume that individual cultures would matter less in overall policymaking. Just a thought. KingSweden 16:29, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Maps of USGA
The map of the United States of Greater Austria is taken from, and edited on Inkscape (mainly changed the colors, added a few more cities and added state capitals). I also made another version for my own timeline. --JorgeGG 20:29, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Hey there
Actually I was waiting for you....that's the reason I haven't started the Brazil's page =D, please go and start it --Ed9306 18:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

partner?
Since you put the offer up, I could work with you on the Serica&Romanum timeline. I have good knowledge of general history, but specialize in Northern Europe and Celtic countries. This would be my first article (I've only been brousing this site for a while), but I do write short stories on occasion. My knowledge of general history is focused mainly on 1000-onwards. However, my dad was an engineer (and I intend on becoming one), so I have a pretty good knowledge of that side of alt-history. I take it that you're in Spain, so you may not get this for a while.

Sorry, but Serica and Romanum is not my TL, that's Kagemoto Vi Brooklyn's, but thank you for your offer anyway. I do believe he has voiced his opinion that he does not want other contributors on his AH, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. And I'm actually Greek from the United States, I just happen to be able to communicate in Spanish with some proficiency :)

71.239.255.38 21:30, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Map Game
Would anyone be up for a new map game? I'm involved in a map game/althist in 1452 where numerous nations colonize the globe. That made me think of a map game of my own...

1203: The Map Game
What I'm thinking is that pre-Fourth Crusade the North America is discovered, with various nations coming together and colonizing the New World. Now this will draw attention away from Byzantium, so they'll be saved. Though they may not immediately colonize the New World, they might go other places. Is anyone interested?

Warning
Keep it realistic, no large pan-european empires. 00:16, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Genghis Khan Who
Hi, I am willing to help in any way I can on this TL. Bob 11:22, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, no its alright. Toyotomi is one of my all time favourite alternative histories. It would be an honour to help. I take it you got rid of my little additions. Thats alright. Bob 08:28, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

I was just creating former country pages. I thought it would make sense if we had separate pages for the Second English Commonwealth and stuff. That way you could track the development of nations. But now that I think about it makes more sense for all the information on a country to be on one page. Also in my opinion, the North American Confederation and Oregon have a somewhat more British feel to them because of their legacies. Bob 11:52, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Please
Please read Russian Empire (Constantine's Russia) and give me a lengthy article of advice on it. Please? --Catherine 16:07, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

For good sakes man, please read and comment on the article I told you about. I am tired of waiting for this shit. --Catherine 03:17, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry for leaving you the rude comment. And other people who read it says it has good vocabulary, grammar, organization, etc. And I am actually quite a good writer Mr. Know it All. --Catherine 12:54, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal COA
Please check your 1983 Doomsday article on Greece, I left you a proposal COA.

Sorry
Look, I'm sorry for being a big jackass about the Byzantines, I see that you're the real player for them now, so I'd like it if I could play again, this time I'll be China

-Ownerzmcown 14:12, June 13, 2010

Federation of Greece
I think some history needs to get written about the Federation of Greece. Its set up to be a major political and military power in the region, but the way its written up on the page it seems to be pretty small and weak. This needs to be rectified. Can you describe the controlled territory a bit better, maybe I can make up a map for the page.Oerwinde 08:51, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well only two nukes means they fared better than most.07:59, July 1, 2010 (UTC)Oerwinde

Look, I'm sorry about not going over the whole mention of you in you article of the Kingdom of Macedonia, but if you'll let bygons be bygons, then I'd like to mention Greece in my article with your permission, and I'll make it interesting.

Really Sorry

Ownerzmcown 19:57, July 3, 2010 (UTC) 19:57, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Farewell
Greetings John, I as well as any other person know how outside matters can be like that, they are after all more important usually. However, feel no regret John for what you haven't accomplished, instead look at what you have accomplished. You advised me over a long period of time when I myself was having problems staying connected here, and without someone to talk to and give me more reason to work, my timeline would never have gotten this far. It's now one of the largest timelines here, up there with Doomsday and Aetas ab Brian and I want you to know that you have played an important role in getting it there. No regrets my friend!

Please though, one last time reconsider staying. You're a good member of this community and have more to contribute by your presence than some even have by there work. In either case, I sincerely hope you get this message.

As well, your name (John) as well as my own name (also John haha) are immortalized in the name of the current Roman emperor in my timeline, someone who will heavily feature in my later works. Through this and other things, I know that I will not soon forget you and your help here. Good luck on the rest of your endeavors, and Godspeed.

Cheers my friend, Red (aka John) Red VS Blue 13:11, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm delighted to here it John! =D

It really is a good time for you to stay. The wiki is, as you have pointed out, failing and I've done my best to at least give it another decent timeline. I even hope that my little project for the map games will help push that into a better direction. In any case I'd be glad to have you on board again! =D Also, it's interesting to see that you have such a strong view on humanity. There are few people one can find on the internet with a nose for philosophical deliberations. It's a good trait, don't lose it my friend.

Anyway, I'm more prepared to work with you this time around as I've been getting a better hang of collaborating with others on this site, especially as it relates to my own timeline.

I'm sure you'll have a great time on your trip, Greece is a beautiful country, albeit one in a bit of rut right now. Have a safe flight, and I eagerly wait to work with you again!

Happy Trails!

Red VS Blue 01:47, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Greece (Wasteland Europe)
Seeing as you like to work on Greece in various TL's i was wondering if you would like to help me with the Social Republic of Greece in the Wasteland Europe TL. For background info to greece's curent situation you might want to look at the Greek Intervention section of the Yugoslavia (Wasteland Europe) article.--Vegas adict 20:55, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Macedonia
What do you think of Macedonia taking a chunk of former Greek territory?

Yankovic270 04:20, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Orthodoxy and the Sundered Veil
So I've started a new timeline called Sundered Veil in which magic is released into the world in the 1400s, I'm currently figuring out how the various religions would deal with this. So far I have a new protestent religion emerging that embraces magic as a gift of god, the Catholics accepting only those effects deemed holy or miraculous such as healing and such, and in fact reforming the church to emphasize clergy who were capable of such feats, but I figured I'd consult the expert on Orthodox Christianity on what the Orthodox reaction to it would be. Your help would be appreciated.Oerwinde 07:26, July 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I knew the main difference between the catholics and the orthodox was mainly that Orthodoxy believed the church was the way it was because god wanted it that way, and the catholics would reform whenever new teachings got popular acceptance. I was kinda hoping they'd reject all magic, but thats why I asked.Oerwinde 18:23, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

TSPTF Responsibilities
If you are receiving this message, you are a member of the TSPTF. In an effort to keep this wiki in tip-top shape, I have made a list of responsibilities on the TSPTF page that I hope you all volunteer to do (at least three of them). If we work together we can make this place into a quality wiki. Mitro 22:17, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Greece
Hey, I am interested in adopting Greece. Arstarpool 07:10, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Helping Expand - Sure, I don't mind at all. I'm in kind of a dull spell here on the wiki and would rather help others expand than work on my own at the moment anyway.Oerwinde 06:06, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite!! I'm still trying to think of a plausable way for Macedonia to control all that land, but I can't!!! Haha, can I write some of the articles on the islands (and help you out with figuring out how much territory Macedonia could possibly control)?

Anyways, thank you!!! BoredMatt 15:35, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

While i have no intrest in Greece itself I was wondering just how much land around the Suez it controls as i have several countries in the area. How would they react to a communist country to the south anexing eastern Sudan?Vegas adict 18:17, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

That was about what I thought, thanks for confirming it anyway.Vegas adict 21:20, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Greece members
Hi, might I create the flags of the members of the Confederation? Please answer me. VENEZUELA 02:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Also I read what you answered to Arstarpool, so might I adopt it? But it would continue yours but also mine, a joint article. VENEZUELA 02:55, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, but that mean that I can edit and create things for the History of Greece, because i have imagine many things on how this countries were created. VENEZUELA 03:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

And also it's ok what I put in my Kabylie article? VENEZUELA 03:59, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Please! create your blog now! that I wan't to show you my ideas. sorry if i am bothering you! VENEZUELA 04:08, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

If you want i might do it? VENEZUELA 04:17, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Also might I start to add the flags? VENEZUELA 04:20, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

You go to Blog next to Talk page and click it, and then at the end you click create new blog next to a pencil.

What about a coptic flag for Egypt? The Lybian flag the same but without the moon and the star, and finally the one of Thrace being a green-white-green flag? VENEZUELA 05:12, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Here are my flags already chosen:


 * Moreos flag83dd.png or Moreos flag blue83dd.png Despotate of Moreos
 * Flag of Greece.png Hellenic Republic
 * Agion Oros Flag.jpg Agion Oros
 * (dai)egyptflag.png Egypt
 * 800px-Flag of Libya 281951 29 svg.png Lybia
 * Thrace 83DD.png Thrace

I've got an outline of the possible territorial history of the states:


 * Blue:Hellenic Republic


 * Orange: Despotate of Moreos


 * Teal: Kérkyra


 * Green: Delian League


 * Red: Dodecanese Republic


 * Purple: Holy Mountain


 * Indigo: Thrace Reclaimation Zone


 * Pale Green: New states by constitutional reform

Oerwinde 06:37, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cyan: Macedonia

About Africa, that means that I can start writing in the article, but i want to know how it could be a LoN mandate if the land in Egypt was taken in 2003, and the LoN was created in 2008? VENEZUELA 17:56, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

I already changed it, so can I start writing about Africa? VENEZUELA 18:05, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well first i was thinking that Gaddafi's Lybia collapsed after Doomsday, because of panic, oil crisis, economy collapse, ect...

And the Greek government escaped to Creta. Algeria was turned into a rump state, and Egypt was taken by a Islamic Revolution.

Then in 1987, a new nation call Despotae of Morae discovered a Lawless Lybia, in which caos was taking everything, and they discovered the Greek ruins at Cyrenaica so they established a small country in Cyrenaica and Tripoli, and with time they expanded.

then i'm going to add the part of the Israeli-Egyptian war, in which Egypt moved south, and the part of the Hellenes arrive in Egypt, then the museum, and then the Kabylie part (well not in that order). VENEZUELA 18:14, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

ok, I'm going to start. VENEZUELA 18:37, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

What about now? VENEZUELA 20:31, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

In regards to shifting the map borders, go for it, its your country we're just helping.Oerwinde 23:37, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

How do the image of the cathedral in New Cairo is? VENEZUELA 01:07, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Here is the image please add it and its caption because I don't understand Coptic and Greek Orthodoxy (I'm Catholic). VENEZUELA 01:28, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Remember to add the cathedral! VENEZUELA 22:47, August 17, 2010 (UTC)



What was the name of the first king of Morea?Oerwinde 04:47, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Fellow John!
I'm glad to hear it =D Well, I've just finished updating some of the provinces which I've done so far so as soon as I add a link on the main Roman Empire page, you can write out one of the articles and I'll come in and help develop it. I've been kind of cowering away from the daunting task of writing provinces pages, so having a little help would be great!

Oh you honor me too much! I'm not sure I would be the best successor, but if that's what you think then I will do my best, I can assure you. I will need a little bit of help however to get into the position as the full extent of my involvement in 1983 is going on a blog and saying its not dead =P So please forgive any ignorance on my part on what's happening in that timeline.

I actually have a little request of my own for you. I've been meaning to start a minor timeline beside my major Superpowers one, and I'm wondering if you'd like to help me develop some pages for Greece? You can get more info on my plans on my "Ideas" page (linked from my User page), but in summary it examines an early union of the British crown (in the 1500's instead of 1600's) and the quicker development of Great Britain as a great power. I don't know anything about Greece in that time period, so your help would be very useful =D

Red VS Blue 18:29, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Of course! I don't know this period of history like I know ancient Rome, so you can throw your support in anywhere if you'd like. I do however wish to keep this timeline as a personal project of mine, so I apologize that I won't be making you a co-editor. But who knows, I've never fully collaborated on a timeline before, so depending on things go, and on how willing you are, I may change my mind about that. I'm writing out the main page now, so you can take a look and tell me what you think once its posted.

I've called it Fidei Defensor since Tudor Rose has apparently been taken already. Thank you very much for accepting! And I also look forward to trying my hand at 1983:Doomsday. It will be an enlightening experience I'm sure. Red VS Blue 21:31, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Hey John, I just saw a message you'd sent someone about how things were going badly for the Federation of greece. Since you've recruited me as well, I was wondering what I can do to help now. Red VS Blue 02:38, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

It is true I am very busy with social matters, and then even here I now have two timelines to attend to, but I'd hate to miss an opportunity to help out a friend, so I'll do what I can to promote the Greek Federation =D The thing I need help with though is how to approach the situation, I've stayed mostly clear of the 1983:DD community and I haven't the foggiest idea of how to deal with them haha

Ah, yes Fidei Defensor. Well lets see. Greece I leave completely up to you. I imagine having a Holy League being created sometime late-1500's to fight the Ottomans after their Siege of Vienna, but that's the extent my POD will have had so far on anywhere near Greece. In fact, at the point I've reached right now, the area around Greece is exactly the same ATL as it is OTL. As far as I can tell, the POD has had no effect on it yet. Aragon I believe is part of the Habsburg monarchy am I right? I'm still not entirely sure what will be happening there, but I do expect a strong Spanish threat to the British in their colonies.

Finally the French Protestantism will really be quite a nice piece to write. I'm still working out the details, as a lot of research is needed for me since I'm not all too familiar with this period in French history, but what I know so far is that the French government will continue to tolerate, and eventually actually encourage the Huguenots in their own country. I'm thinking that if Henry IV still comes onto the throne of France, then he'll actually take the step of converting the country to Huguenot Protestantism. Anyway if you'll help me we can probably work the whole thing out pretty soon.

The great thing about this new timeline is that the POD only gradually affects the rest of the world, given how small a country England and Scotland were to begin with. I've been having a lot of fun now with slowly changing historical trends and having little events occur opposite to OTL to reflect the completely opposite style in which Great Britain is governed. So just a little thing to keep in mind about the timeline hahaha Red VS Blue 01:21, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oooooooo =D That's rather fascinating. I've been working up to some kind of Franco-Ottoman alliance and the news that it actually almost happened OTL helps that a lot! Well I was looking for another Protestant ally for France and a free Aragon actually works very well, though it can't be too powerful, at least for the time being, since I don't think the Spanish/Austrians should be weakened too much yet.

I really like your idea of making it a religiously liberal country for Abrahamic religions. Its a unique concept and, I know you're hinting at this, I think you should help in creating details for this country. Do you mind if I make a blog to discuss how this will play out? I don't intend on making any nation pages until I, God willing, reach the present day the timeline, so a blog would help us to discuss things about it before I write it into the main storyline. Alternatively though, and I'd like your opinion on this, I could make the timeline so that there's a nation page for each century (so like Great Britain (1600), then later Great Britain (1700)) or something like that.

I'm glad you brought this up though, it's opening up a lot of things for the timeline =D Red VS Blue 01:57, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

hahaha Ya, I gonna figured you'd be happy lol I'm gonna make a blog page to discuss this if you don't mind =D

Ok, so lets see if I can organize all that now lol

I don't think too many places would join Aragon in the split. Possibly Sardinia, if they're internal politics make that possible, but I'll leave that up to you. Up Malta would never join a country like Aragon haha Back then they were a Catholic haven against foreign religions, and they basically hated the Muslims (especially after the siege). I could see them joining only out of protection, but I already have plans for who they'll turn to (Great Britain, just like they did later in OTL)

I definitely agree with that, the Aragonese culture will try to separate itself as much as possible from the Spaniards (will they just call themselves Castille afterwards? Or would Old Spain still be Spain, do you think?). I'll think about some of the other stuff once we have a blog page to work on =P

Although, I'm not to sure about bringing Greeks into Aragon (especially if they're bearing gifts! Beware! =P ). Well it sounds like Aragon has become kind of a refugee state, but Ottoman controlled Greece is pretty far, and I don't know if any countries had policies of dropping off their troublemakers in their allied countries. Anyway we'll see haha Red VS Blue 13:50, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Greece and Alliances
I figured you'd get to my work eventually - and the reaction I expected too, lol.

I don't have complete control over Georgia, by any stretch, though I'm the only one who's really done anything with it, so I guess what I say may as well go. I'd figured good relations, mostly in light of Turkish ambitions, with possibly some shipments of supplies coming from Greece in some form - likely ammo and fuel, in exchange for minerals of some sort.

No reason for Transylvania to not be - its fine by me, and something that I wrote into the article anyway.

Heh. I suppose it might sound a bit like that with Rhodope, but besides the awkwardness of the first contact, I'd envisioned fairly good relations. As a matter of fact, I'd say that Rhodope actually wants good relations, lol. Basically, trading partners, and possibly allies of some sort after the war is finished. Return of Greek territory temporarily within Rhodope territory is something we'll need to discuss eventually, but not an issue, really.

And yeah, to say that Vidin is NOT a friend of Greece is probably an understatement, lol.

You may want to look at the Turkish Sultanate page, fyi - Caer is doing things that you may want to look at.

And, I wouldn't mind helping you with the Greece article either, if that's all right.

Lordganon 07:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of a Black Sea Alliance, of sorts. Though I have to admit, my current planning has Rhodope applying to join the ADC after the war is over.

Heh. I figured that there'd be at least something in the Turkey article you'd take issue with. Been painfully obvious how they feel about things too.

Great! I'll let them know. I'm sure I can add something to the war, I'm a pretty good strategist. But, I suspect I'll filly out the histories, and continue to fix anything Ven wrote - it's something I've done for all his Caucasian states. I can say that insomuch as they could help, Rhodope would aid Greece - the Sicilians sunk a ship carrying artillery for them in the 1st war, and they'd love to return the favor.

Worst thing ever to be hit like that. Wish I could help with the religion, but that's far out of my league - my degree was much more rooted in the history of trade than anything else!

And thanks for the adjustment, not something I'd have noticed.

Lordganon 08:36, August 20 (UTC)

For sure - and I can say right now that Transylvania and several of the Caucasus states would join a Black Sea Alliance as well. Georgia and Armenia, anyway, though I can definitely say any of the others would too - Ven has given me the authority ;)

Heh. I hear you - I've been trying to get Caer to recognize that he's empire-building and whatnot for a while, but he's too blasted oblivious and pig-headed to see it. I've given up on it now, more or less.

I'll have to have a good look at the Saguenay War - its start/end states will play a role on how much reinforcements the Celts and Nordics can send. I've decided to ignore Caer on this completely. =)

Black Friday? I know the reference, but I couldn't find anything in the article about it. Could you outline it for me?

One thing I do try to do when reviewing articles for people is to keep as much the same as possible - have a look at the Caucasus states, as examples - while still fixing them to make some sort of sense.

I'm perfectly willing to help - way I figure things, all of this is great practice for my research and historical skills until my paperwork from immigration comes in and I can get into my masters program.

Like I said, I'll have to think a bit about the war - I've a couple or other projects I'm trying to get off the ground, if only to claim their territory. But I should have something Sunday or so, easy.

Lordganon 10:11, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

My apologies for the length and rambling, fyi.

Eh, dont worry about it. I knew at least one of them would prolly take that badly - while it was a good try, it did read as being a little mean - so I'm not too surprised. To be frank, in my opinion Caer is a hothead who can't admit he isnt quite right and unwilling to compromise - you only have to see my discussions with him to notice that. I doubt he'll agree with your apology, etc, even though he said he'd think about it. And it does seem like he is purposely trying to mess with you, however much he denies it.

Honestly, I like how the borders are now, though some adjustments in Anatolia and Southern Albania are likely in order.

That being said, we can likely work with Owner, so long as Macedonian control of parts of Northern Greece are accepted. And you've done that, so...

I'd be willing to have Rhodope work with Greece in Thrace, somewhat - though until the Vidin War is over, it wouldn't be much - maybe some settled refugees, but not likely much more. But Rhodope will basically support Greece in most things - a good part of their government is a Greek Party, so the government does have a lean to that direction.

But, this wouldn't be some sort of Union, but maybe some sort of joint project at the behest of the Patriarch. That would work well. Some sort of name with "Orthodox" in it would work. End result would be the city under Greek control, but with all decisions having to be approved within the city/project by the Rhodopian and Macedonian representatives as well. But definitely the headquarters of the project would be there.

Basically a project to rebuild Orthodox sites in the region destroyed on DD, starting with Constantinople..

Looking at Cyprus, between the tow sides (Turkish and Greek), the military numbers would be about equal. Despite the destruction of the British bases on DD, some of the hardware would surely survive, and given their locations, anything left would have ended up in the arms of the Greeks, more likely than not. Add the number disparity to that, and a near-genocide of the Turks living there is not impossible.

I'd figured that Tunisia would end up after the war being under the administration of the Rif Republic. They are in the ADC and Muslim, after all.

A Greek apology to the Turks from those parts of the Confederation would be a good idea.

Shrinking the Greek territory near Rhodes down to only being the coast sounds good.

I don't know if you've seen my logic for the Edirne strike, but it basically is that it is a regional centre, and its elimination would, with the radiation, prevent any Turkish attacks along that border, fleeing up Bulgarian troops for attacks into Yugoslavia.

While the full extent of Vegas' offer is out of the question, the thought of the Greeks at the LoN supporting them, in light of the past, sounds reasonable enough to me.

Caer needs to learn to butt out of the business of others, and to merely advise things, like the rest of us try to do when our interests are not directly affected. As a matter of fact, their aid in the Constantinople Project may be a good thing.

Call it the "Orthodox Reclamation Project" maybe? Though, I've no idea how to get Turkey involved then. May even be a better idea to put the area under LoN control except the city itself, but under joint control of the regional nations.

Looking at things, and thinking about it, with their recent conquests there is no chance that Macedonia/Turkey could effectively intervene in the 2nd Sicily War without losing their newly conquered territories.

Of course, the Reclamation Project would need to be in control, a least to a certain extent, of the coastline of the strait as well. Insuring the neutrality of the waterway, that kind of thing.

And, as you may have noticed, I will defend the Bulgarian borders quite vigorously. Please remember that, eh?

Just remember, the only way they can actually have a war with Greece is if we let them - and that's not acceptable, so....

Lordganon 08:31, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Suppose I should also add my future intentions with Rhodope. Next after Vidin, and fully securing the region between the two, will come an expedition to the northwest, to investigate rumors of survivors, and west, to scout out a port location. Northeastern Thrace will be included in this.

Lordganon 08:33, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the Warm Welcome!
Καλός Ēρθατε, indeed!

Thank you for welcoming me to the Wiki. Sadly, Greek is a language that is not my first, but I can speak a little. I am an avid scholar on the fine history of Byzantium and its successor states. Truly a wonderful part of history that all Greeks should be proud of. I would love to do a TL with you sometime. Alternate histories on a much stronger, stable Byzantine Greece are what I'm here for. As for the image, I thought it was a rather wonderful example. Truly captures the natural daring of the last Christian emperor that day of the fall. I haven't been able to locate many sources on the later Greek armies, either. However, I noticed they were replacing the 'legionary' with the 'hoplite' again as time went on. --Emperor of Trebizond 23:02, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

A Divided Caliphate
Hello, Mr. Xeight!

I wanted to invite you to a TL in which the Caliphate falls apart on 750. If you would be interested, please contact me! Fedelede 23:06, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

That would be an interesting prospect. What about if we plan everything on my blog? There is a a page about it there, and I prefer that than going over user pages to see the whole discussion. Fedelede 02:09, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Egyptian Flag on the Federation of Greece
I thought you could use This flag

on the Egyptian state of the Federation of Greece. Fedelede 13:19, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

This is the flag I made. I was going to go with by the time they became a state it was made up of mostly copts, with the muslim population mostly migrating along the Eonile due to the radiation on the nile from Cairo, but with the Greek cleanup efforts the Copts migrated to the delta hoping to live without persecution. The Blue and White stand doubly for Greece, for which they owe their state, and the newly purified nile, and the black stands for Egypt, or Kemet. Egyptians referred to the country as the Black Land due to the silt left by the nile during the floods. The coptic cross representing the coptic majority.Oerwinde 19:24, August 29, 2010 (UTC)



More Greece Stuff
I have Euboea as part of the Hellenic Republic because it made more sense than being part of the Delian League. With the HR moving on mainland Greece and being rebuked by the Moreans, Attica and Euboea are large developed areas that would be high priority targets of the HR. Its proximity to Athens would also likely ensure that it is much less stable than many of the other islands, making it unlikely to house the capital of the Delian League. I chose Syros because it was one of the more important islands, and a center of local government. Euboea also has a large enough population and land area that direct democracy wouldn't be very realistic.

Also, I was thinking that Lesbos and the northern Aegean islands might have formed their own state, with the Delian League being more centered around the southern islands.

The flag of Agion Oros I made because wikipedia shows the flag is the same as the Hellenic Republic but I wanted to incorporate the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church in there as well so I combined them. Also the flags I have are those of the states post federation, they may have used different ones prior to statehood. I've been looking at altering the saltire as well for the federation, since there are more states and the Saltire doesn't really have any history in Greece.Oerwinde 21:34, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, did this up for the flag of the Greek Federation:

The Blue and White and the greek cross obviously for Greece. The black for Egypt. The Byzantine B's to signify Cyrenaica and Morea, and the double headed eagle for Agion Oros. Each star represents a state, and the crown represents the monarch.

Oerwinde 21:51, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Me and Lordganon were actually thinking you'd be best to do the Holy Mountain article anyway, since being a theocracy and us knowing very little about Orthodoxy. I just went with Agion Oros because its a cooler name than Holy Mountain.Oerwinde 00:41, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yes - While I could manage to write a state around it, I've no doubt that even with wikipedia I'd get all the Orthodox parts wrong. I'd much prefer if you did it.

Those flags are very good.

Lordganon 04:18, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Mercenaries
Do you think the Greeks have had the need to use mercenaries in any of their 1983: Doomsday conquests? In Africa, maybe? --Emperor of Trebizond 01:31, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Holy Mountain
Would you mind if I worked on the Holy Mountain article for Greece? Arstarpool 04:34, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Owen
If you are receiving this message you are a member of the TSPTF. Owen, which is already causing ruckus, wants to be part of the TSPTF again ! He claimed that he did not vote for Smoggy so he could gain respect but then wrote on Louis' page what I am about to write below:"since I successfully nominated Smoggy, can I join the TSPTF now?" - Owen1983He doesn't get it, this guy. I suggest you respond to him. He does not get how we function, he does not understand how to write alternate history, hell, he barely knows how to write English, and he is a grade-A spammer. Some people are already complaining again and hes only been back for about a week or so. Please respond, Arstarpool

Coptic Church/Greek Church
Ok, so heres a question from an ignorant athiest. Doing some research into the Coptic Church, seems the major difference between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox is that Eastern Orthodox believes Jesus was both fully divine and fully human, while the Oriental Orthodox believe he was both combined. Why is this such a big deal? It doesn't seem like that big of a difference so as to cause a schism and lasting separation of the churches. Would there be any way for the Greek Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches to allow communion between the two?Oerwinde 07:17, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Patriarch
How does the relationship between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the others work? Is it some sort of seniority thing?

Lordganon 14:31, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

So basically a first among equals, but only in a technical sense? And would the others be more likely to listen to him as a result?

Lordganon 23:35, September 15, 2010 (UTC)