Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page Location Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stability
Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in from 1700 onward. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points you lose. If your points drop below 500, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 300, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely.
 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 important metals, e.g. iron, copper .etc)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)
 * trade routes (50 for each major trade route - note a long border does not mean lots of trade)

Stability = Status Quo + Penalties to stability: Benifits to stability:
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population) (rounded)/Territory)*500 which is the nations status quo
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50 (border skirmish)
 * Major invasion= -100 (15% of territory lost or one major city captured)
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (as decided by mods)
 * -500*percent of territory lost in a war
 * War won in less than 5 years= +50
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every major trade route= +5 (mods decide your number)
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20
 * Stability greater than 1500 for the last 25 years= +150
 * Economic improvement= +25
 * Religious/moral revival= +30
 * Infrastructure= +25
 * War= +10
 * Military development/expansion= +20
 * 100*percent of territory won in a war

Stability of Player-States and Bonus Angorithm Points

 * All Metals+Soil Quality


 * Stability - Status Quo'

Stage 1

 * Heartland of Russia only.

Stage 2

 * None.

Stage 3

 * None.

Stage 4

 * None

Mamluk Crusade Planning
I decided we needed an official planning section for the Mamluk crusade. If we manage to overthrow the government, this is the current division of Mamluk territory:

Of course, we probably would be able to negoriate to give other people who join territory as well, or we could make a treaty/pay them off for their aid instead.

To everyone entering the war: I want this to be a long war. It is an enormous amount of territory to conquer, and it is a powerful empire. Unlike the Ottomans, who were cobbled together from numerous different ethnic groups that easily splintered away, the Mamluks are united by thier Arab descent. It will take a long time to overthrow such a nation, and longer still to subjugate the people. Furthermore, it has become sort of boring that all of the wars recently, even the 2 "Great Northern Wars" ended after two years. I am thinking that this should last like 10 years. It will be more fun that way. LurkerLordB 03:06, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

And worse; they are in civil disarray.it will be more difficult yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:38, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the Crusade may actually require a series of short wars to take all of the nation. LurkerLordB 13:29, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree, the war should last ten years. Anyway, I thought about it and I want a little more territory, specificlly, a few lands down to Qatar and Bahrain. When do we start the crusade? After the Great Northern War? Now? Anyway, I want to iniciate it (considering that Naples and Sweden/Denmark will be in a sort of post-bellum state). Also, I would like to divide my conquest lands in two vassal states: Egypt, ruled by the Patriarch of Alexandria (as vassal to the King of France and the Pope) and Arabia, ruled by a Caliph of Mecca and Medina. Is this possible? --Galaguerra1 19:59, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

In part, this will not be possible.Alexandria will go to Greek control, and it's of Greek interest that the Patriarch stays on Egyptian lands. {C And, if i get that amount of territory on Egypt, and not too many people enter, i will make a vassal state called Egypt.but Arabia can be made.oh, and you already don't have a vassal in Algeria?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:44, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think that perhaps we should actually not choose any land right now, until it is confirmed who is going to enter. If no one else does, you can ask if Scandinator would let you take that territory. I am making an algorithm to determine if we will win now... LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Crusaders (led by France)

 * Near the location of the War: 3
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France/Algeria/Burgundy/Naples/Papal States/Jerusalem/Hungary/Greece/Sweden/Estonia/Netherlands/ Scotland: 36
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: y (depends when the war begins)
 * Stability: 36
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: TBD (x)
 * Total=102+x+y

Mamluk Empire
I assumed tha *1.5 for civil disarray was to the final result. LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Mamluk Empire/Yemen/Jysan/Fartak/Assyria: 15 (the crusade is against the "Rome" of Islam, all Muslim states nearby will try to help)
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Total= 49*1.5=73,5

Jaeden CC (Burgundy) just confirmed me that he will be on our side (and he wants no territory gains). May be the user of Persia wants to participate. --Galaguerra1 01:40, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

If Persia joined it, it would be easy just to extend their territory that will border the Mamluks after they conquer Shahrzur just down some. LurkerLordB 17:22, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

You know what, I think I should join the war on the Crusaders' side. What do I have to conquer?

RandomWriterGuy 22:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

You could probably just extend your territory from Shahrzur down some ways. LurkerLordB 01:12, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

What territory of the Mamuluk Empire can i have?

RandomWriterGuy 22:34, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of Rome
I commented in boldLxCaucassus 11:13, November 4, 2011 (UTC) {C
 * 1) Russia and her supporters will acknowledge defeat. fine, OK
 * 2) Livonia and the Estonian Islands will be handed over to the Baltic Alliance See comment below
 * 3) Lithuania will be split with the smaller Northern section becoming North Lithuania - a puppet state of Sweden see comment below
 * 4) Sweden's remaining annexable territory quota will be taken from the Finnish border.
 * 5) Russia, Lithuania, Armenia, Persia, AGC, Greece, Kazakhstan and China will not attack Sweden and her dominions, France, Algeria, Yemen and Vietnam. Fine but you know there will be wars between Russia and Sweden. lots happened in history. I'll try to mimic those a bit like in 1809 when Alexander took finland to protect petersburg. for the rest of the lifetime of Peter I, II, Catherine I, Elizabeth I will not incite war
 * 6) Russia must pay 1.5 million kronars to Sweden and her allies and send men to rebuild the damage to Swedish infrastructure. how bout 5-10 million(rubles) and I get to keep livonia
 * 7) Persia will return the Swedish India colony. Sorry but I did not realize the war was over until right now. Please, I want to cancel the Persian invsaion of India. RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * 8) Russian and Lithuanian military bases and manpower in Kola, St Petersburg, Lithuania and within 100 km of the Baltic alliance will not excceed those in Finland, Baltic Alliance and North Lithuania. uh... I need the baltc ports to survive!
 * 9) Sweden is allowed to keep the strange contraptions found in St Petersburg (steam engines)...Sure...but there werent any...it was only in archange, St petersburg wasnt built enough to have those yet. and I dont think you would need to ask to keep them...you can say strange contraptions found near St Petersburg being transported to Archangel... itll take you some time to learn to use them though.

Again, a list of demands, without even an attempt at negotiations. I suggest you change your tune, Scan - you have been warned, remember? Lordganon 11:29, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator, it's too late, you aren't going to gain anything, and you both are losing Finnland. The deadline was two days ago, you failed to meet it, therefore, Finnish independence. + what Lordganon said. LurkerLordB 20:23, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the new map that DK added, with Finland becoming independent. I think we should probaby make a short rule stating that neither Russia nor Sweden can take Finland as vassal for full-on territory for the next 50 years or so, because it wouldn't be much of a punishment if Sweden could immediately declare Finland a vassal 1 year later. LurkerLordB 21:18, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I also recognize Russian defeat.

RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Lx, I don't care if you and Scan keep debating this and looking for a solution but you have lost the right to do so on this talk page. When you agree on something on your own talk pages, I'll gladly change the map and remove Finland. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:24, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Since Finland is already independent, then it seems to be too late to give it back to them. The deadline was three days ago, so Finland should be independent already. LurkerLordB 22:50, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

wait, the bold was me discussing his terms, I believe that he posted that, I responded proposing something else and then I want to wait for him to approve or suggest something else, we are doing diplomacy now... please wait untill scan responds to the bold before banning us from discussing this from this page.LxCaucassus 23:14, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Too late, Lx. A ruling has been made by Kenny, and I will back him in enforcing it.

Take it to your talk pages. And keep it civil - the walls have ears.

Lordganon 23:46, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I won't delete Finland but I may give you a chance to reclaim territory. Any further discussion on the topic henceforth will be dropped. Further argument will see immediate blocking. It is about time this page got archived, it is way past 100,000 bytes. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:45, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yemen
I would like to ask, what painting programs do people use for drawing such beautiful maps? For example, I use Paint.NET for that. Doctor261 11:57, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I Have to answer, as mapmaker.in my case, nothing special.just MS Paint.however, these that i make are all variations of the first map, drawn by Detectivekenny.but isn't difficult.just download the map and edit it on Paint.every map must be saved as .png on the file's template.However, if you are going to edit the maps, i think that you should simply leave it to me.the last time that this happened, the maps became too much confusing, since both mapmakers were posting different maps each time.if i miss something, tell me.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I use Paint.NET as well. Per Kenny's suggestion, I am archiving everything except this treaty, the Crusade, and the labelled map, as everything else is either from past stuff or can be found on the RUles page (no reason to have algorithm, stability, and industrialization in 2 places) LurkerLordB 14:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, check the link below my post. This is how Yemen borders looked in 1700. Did something happen in another way alt-historically in this map-game before? 

Doctor261 14:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

That is not the way the borders looked, that map is a map from modern times with the European empires (the colors) imposed on top of it. None of the nations on that map had borders like that during that time period, except for the ones in colors. LurkerLordB 15:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

The borders were probably very loose then. Yemen probably controlled a few cities, towns, and villages, and the nomads wouldn't be under any jurisdiction. Much of Yemen is the Rub-al-Khali, as you probably know. But LurkerLordB is right, the map is just colors superimposed on present-day borders. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator's Misuse of Moderator powers
Recently, Scandinator has been misusing his powers as "disaster moderator" to his advantage. He made up a famine in Germany these past couple turns, despite the fact that no real famine happened there in history during that time. Now, this is alternate history, so there could be famines that didn't happen in real life, so that is not the real problem. The real problem is that he recently stated that the famines are making Prussians wish to rejoin Sweden. I say it is abuse of moderator powers to cause disasters that only occur in one nation that have no historical basis in an attempt to seize land from that nation. Mod-created Disasters should either be historical, be region/continent wide, or be used to punish players. Scandinator's recent actions are not historical, and are focussed on one nation that violated no rules. This makes it obvious that this is nothing more than a build up to a Sweden/German war in an attempt to seize back territories taken from them fairly in a war.

This is an addition to the controversy involving the stability which Scandinator has been handling, which resulted in the administration of this wiki becoming involved and nearly banning him. It seems as if Scandinator is incapable of using his moderator powers in a fair and unbiased manner, and therefore I feel it is sadly necessary for him to be removed from his position. LurkerLordB 15:36, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree. There was in fact a famine in East Prussia from 1708 - 1711, which killed 41% of the population (250,000 people). It is also true that the AGC did very little about it, even if they were inactive. He probably shouldn't have mentioned his own country, but there's nothing really wrong here. After all, he's put a lot of work into discovering every natural disaster, something which I just could never do no matter how much I tried.

An argument takes two people. He obviously put a lot of time and effort into the stability system, which was based on something I concocted and makes sense, as well as being accurate. So what about one argument? Everyone gets in arguments. He is still relatively new to the game and has been getting better all along. In this case he just needs a slap to the side of the face to not mention his own country. Same thing happened in India a little while ago, and Hanthawaddy could have invaded, but he didn't mention Hanthawaddy at all, which is OK. But he shouldn't mention Sweden at all. In a journalistic article, the writer can't mention himself at all, no matter how relevant his name is to the story. Same principle applied here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)