Talk:1983: Doomsday

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=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
Archives: Page 1 Page 2

Virginian Expansion
Inspired by what BrianD added to the WRCB report for the deep south, I may add to the Virginian Republic at least plans to expand into Ohio, Maryland and Pennsylvania. While the Virginian territories in "East" Virginia and Kentucky are expanded. --Yankovic270 18:35, November 11, 2009 (UTC) This is my idea on the territory that Virginia at least claims in Ohio. They have simmilar claims in other states, and the territory they have now is developed enough for them to even think of expanding --Yankovic270 03:25, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

And would it be plausible for the Virginians to take over the US Virgin Islands? Is anyone still reading this part of the talkpage? If no-one objects, I will add it to my article. --Yankovic270 21:46, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be, because the Virgin Islands have been established as part of the East Caribbean Federation.--BrianD 21:53, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops. I meant, no it would not be plausible. The U.S. and British Virgin Islands are in canon part of the East Caribbean Federation. --BrianD 22:04, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Damn it. I want to be able to expand Virginia overseas. it would have been a lot more plausible if they claimed caribean territory than anywhere else. It there any part of the Caribean (other than Cuba) that is not part of the cursed ECF? If not, is there anywhere else I could have Virginia expanding? How about Africa? There are massive amounts of government-less land. Maybe former Gambia or Sierra Leone. --Yankovic270 22:19, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Virginia certainly is ambitious, isn't it? One question people are going to ask is how Virginia is going to get down to the Caribbean or over to Africa, and another will be how they are going to govern the area they conquer? Not to mention, why would Virginia be interested in any overseas territory? What is the attraction to them?--BrianD 22:30, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

I think Virginia expanding overseas is not plausible. Africa is not completely government-less; most of what looks like that is simply because people have not been writing about it. Virginia, though a local power, is not exactly a superpower that can create satellites on other continents. Furthermore, why would they want to? Just to have more land? They should be looking after themselves, and maybe annexing bordering regions if they seems promising. --DarthEinstein 22:28, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

The problem is where would Virginia expand? The East Coast was littered with impacts, especially the Northeast and New England. I suppose there is potential of expansion into former Ohio. In fact me and Zack are planning to partition the former state between Virginia and Kentucky. It seems that only the capital of Columbus was hit, so we would naturally avoid the area. I could officially annex parts of North Carolina, but I would need more territory in Maryland to even think about Pennsylvania (Though sections of the central part of the state might have survived.) --Yankovic270 22:45, November 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * One thing about Columbus, really about any area that was blasted 26 years ago: it may be salvageable. Read the Victoria article in regards to how that country salvaged Seattle and Vancouver. Also, when you consider Maryland keep fxgentleman's Delmarva proposal in mind. --BrianD 22:58, November 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Virginia has no coastline and no navy. Colonies are impossible. Benkarnell 23:23, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Not true. I had recently expanded the Virginian Republic to include the rest of the former state of the same name. I have relented on the colonies for now. Yankovic270 23:44, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * This is for the best, they wouldn't be worried about overseas expansion, they would be trying to claim any local valuable land as it would be much easier.--Oerwinde 02:48, November 21, 2009 (UTC)



This is the current situation in Virginian Ohio. The dark red is the territory allready part of the Virginian state of Ohio, the lighter red is the newer territory. --Yankovic270 23:57, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Is it implausible for Virginia to take over the part of Maryland not in either Virginia or Delmarva? It would make sense, as Twenty-Six years is well enough to bring radiation levels to a minimum. --Yankovic270 04:52, November 22, 2009 (UTC)



This is the current situation in Ohio. The Dark Blue is Kentucky's territory, the Dark Red is Virginia's. --Yankovic270 03:25, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to feel like a broken record here but there is no way that Kentucky or Virginia could control Ohio like this. It would take too long to rebuild the infrastructure of the area, pacify any local communities or recolonize abandoned areas.  Not only that but Ohio would be hit hard by DD.  Kentucky and Virginia can claim portions of it, maybe even control some small enclaves and send explorers/traders through the area, but not directly control it.  Essentially its the same argument I have used for why Virginia doesn't control all of "East Virginia" or Maryland.  Way too optimistic. Mitro 03:33, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree with Mitro. I mean, at this rate Virginia will cover the entire US by next year! --DarthEinstein 03:41, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

If no one at all is alive in Ohio, then it wouldn't really take much to control it, would it? I'm wondering though what's in Ohio that's worth claiming, other than bragging rights for having territory. Is anyone left? What value is there TTL in gaining access to Lake Erie...does it give both countries a port for easier trade with Superior, Vermont, Aroostook, Saguenay, Canada, et al?--BrianD 03:48, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

That is not true. There is only a single target in the whole state, so the entire state couldn't be depopulated. That seems to be overly negative. I admit Virginia advanced in Ohio much too quickly. :ets retool it so that Virginia expands slowly, county by county. How long would it take to get the portio0n of Ohio shown on the most recent map? --Yankovic270 03:55, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * We do need to establish who (or what) is there, but it isn't likely that Ohio would only suffer one hit. Cincinnati is listed as a target in the North America section. Cleveland, as the largest city, and Columbus, as the state capital and the home of then-Rickenbacker Air National Guard Base, would have likely been hit. Wright-Patterson AFB near Dayton definitely would have. If Kentucky and Virginia go into the area, my opinion is that they would run into small survivor communities near rivers (like the Ohio) or along Lake Erie between Toledo and Cleveland. --BrianD 04:03, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Brian. Ohio has three large cities plus several air force bases.  As for how long it would take Virginia to get that half of Ohio, my guess is 10-20 years.  Mitro 04:07, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

OK, Yankovic. You're really starting to wear me out. I try to be the nice guy here, be collaborative and follow the WikiWay and all that, but it frankly is not much fun having to check back here every few hours to respond to dreams of your nations expanding to ridiculous sizes with ridiculous numbers of troops. I'm starting to get fed up with begging you to tone everything down. No more begging: Stop it! Benkarnell 05:43, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Bens right. its implausible that Virginia could grow that fast. --HAD 11:07, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Bases in Newfoundland
Both Goose Bay and Gander were active military installations at the time of Doomsday, and might have been nuked. Gander was one of the largest CF bases at the time, and would grow to be the largest the following year, and Goose Bay was an airbase used by both the Canadian Air Forces and NATO. Lahbas 21:27, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well we already established on the and  articles that strikes on military bases would be airburst.  I don't see why a similar situation would not apply to these bases.  There would no doubt be some destruction to the surrounding area but I don't think it would change the history of Canada too much.  Mitro 23:52, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also of interest are Camp Gagetown in New Brunswick, which was the major training center for the Canadian Armed Forces, but could quickly transition into a full-fledged base; CFS St. John's provides and interesting case to me, as it was, while not a naval base, important in a supporting role to the naval forces from Halifax, as well as NATO forces in the North Atlantic (or so it appears); CFB Greenwood in Nova Scotia, largest Air Base on the Atlantic Coast; CFB Winnipeg, headquarters for the Air Command of the Canadian Forces; CFB Cold Lake in Alberta, largest CFB Air Base and testing ground for the AGM-86 cruise missiles; CFB Comox in British Columbia, main Air Base on the Pacific Coast; CFB Moose Jaw in Saskatchawan, though a training facility, appears to have had a level of supply that the Soviets would not have left untouched; CFB Shearwater, a possibility; CFB Bagotville, a major Air Base in Quebec, may prove problematic as it is located in Saguenay CITY; CFB Suffield in Alberta, largest Canadian Forces base in the country, operated jointly with the United Kingdom; CFB Shilo, a possibility, though it is mainly there in the case of a civil or military emergancy; CFB Wainwright, a possibility; CFB Valcartier in Quebec, a possbility; CFB Borden in Ontario, a possibility, as it was a significant training facility; CFB Kingston, base for the Communications and Electronics branch of the CF (not sure what it is, but it seems important); CFB Petawawa, a relatively large CF base in Ontario that served as the base for the Special Service Force at the time; CFAD Dundrun, a possibility; CFB North Bay in Ontario, controlled the Canadian Norad sector, and basically any other warning systems surrounding Canada; CFB Trenton, main route for troop deployment within Canada and abroad.


 * A LOT of bases that are tempting targets. Lahbas 02:31, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * North Bay was targeted according to canon. Mitro 02:36, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * CFB Cold Lake would likely have been hit. Comox, while the main base in the pacific, was stationed with search and rescue, coast guard, and fighter interceptor aircraft. Not a threat and therefore not a likely priority target. From what I've learned from my grandfather who was in the Airforce, and a guy at work who was in the army, Canada was never percieved to be a real threat as we lacked offensive capability. Targets within Canada would likely have been chosen in order to weaken our ability to aid in the defense or rebuilding of the US, hence the major cities and North Bay being targeted.--Oerwinde 08:55, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Carthography
Section Archives: Page 1

New Map
I think whoever creates the maps for this timeline needs to get started on the new one, as there are a ton of newly confirmed nations to be added to the map. --Yankovic270 03:10, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think anyone would create the maps - as long as it fits with canon and it's approved by the community. I might want to try my hand at some mapmaking myself... --DarthEinstein 03:25, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * XiReney and Fero made the first few world maps. The latest one is mine, and since last June it's become very out of date.  Problem is that I was not following 1983DD for most of August and September, when the flury of activity really began.  I've been trying to read all the new pages from August or later, but just keeping up with current proposals is difficult... anyone is free to ad some or all of the new nations.  Or maybe it would be best to break down the labor?  North America is the worst offender; maybe I can upload a world map with just North America updated, and others can take it from there.  Benkarnell 16:39, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I've actually already started a new map. I decided to build it from the ground up; that is, I'm getting the information from the individual articles instead of from previous world maps. I started with the Americas, and they're about half complete, and I haven't started on the Old World. --DarthEinstein 16:44, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, then. Ground up is probably best: I tried hard to keep it free of errors, but they crept in anyway.  Are you still going to include flags?  They have been sort of a tradition so far, but now there are many, many more of them.  Benkarnell
 * I'll try to put the flags in, but first I'm going to get all the borders. After the borders, then I'll get the names and flags. I also thought of creating maps for each continent simply by slicing up the world map, which we can put on the pages for each continent. --DarthEinstein 17:11, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Hey Darth! What is the soonest time you can estimate the map being finished? --Yankovic270 21:13, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure; so far I've drawn the borders of most nations in North and South America, as well as the Alpine Confed, Celtic Alliance, and the small French nations. After I'm done the rest of Europe, I'll move south to Africa, then to Asia and Oceania. After that, I'll fill in the names and flags. So... there's still lots I have to do. By the way, if you notice any nations missing from the list, put it on. I'm using it as a referance to find all the countries. --DarthEinstein 21:31, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Could you post an image of the North American section on my talk page? I'm curious on how my nations look. By the way, Assiniboia has the borders of the old Red River colony. --Yankovic270 21:44, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said, I haven't put the names or flags in yet, but if you want me to get a partially finished version, that's fine. --DarthEinstein 02:17, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say (as a comment after a long time), you might put it in a partially finished version when the names are done. Then we could decide if we insert the flags as well... But I would guess a separate map with flags would me optically more proper. I offer to do the "FLAG MAP Work as a first contribution after a long absence. --Xi&#39;Reney 17:55, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Great to have you back! Also, here's a map update: I've drawn the borders for the North and South American and European countries, as well as the African ones except in South Africa, which has really confused me. After I'm done drawing borders in Asia and Oceania, I'll put the names in, and leave a space under each name for a flag. --DarthEinstein 19:50, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I just did a whole lot of work on the map, and I think it's ready for people to see the first version. As you can see, the countries are not yet labeled. I'd like to hear any concerns over the borders of the countries first. If you've been following the TL you should be able to recognise most of the countries. The darker grey regions between the NAU and Utah, Utah and the Navajo Nation, and Aceh and Indonesia, represent condominion or contested territory. Any suggestions for the next version are appriciated. --DarthEinstein 23:14, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a little jarring to see so much of Africa, China, Europe, even the eastern U.S. in dark grey. That aside, the map looks good.--BrianD 23:18, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

I like the map as well but I have some issues. I may have relented on NAU Nebraska, but I respectfully want all of non-NAU Nebraska to be under Lincolnite control, that would give the Lincolnites both more territory and a border right next to the NAU. Plus the loosly-bound nation of Cave City, like the Okanogan to Victoria, is a potential site for future expansion of Virginia. That warrents, at least until official control is obtained, those dots of colour you see marking influence. --Yankovic270 02:19, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Right; I haven't added any "influence dots" yet, so I'll do that for the next version. I'll expand Lincoln also, but keep in mind that the map I built this off of didn't have state borders, so it will be approximate. --DarthEinstein 02:25, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a problem with zones of influence. The map ought to represent definite borders for each country; in some areas (like India, Sikkim) these zones can literally change by the day, or a country can claim influence that it can't realistically maintain. The issue should be discussed, though.--BrianD 02:40, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. The last map did not include claims for that very reason.  Now that we have dozens of new countries, we have to pick and choose what information to show.  This is really good!  It looks so clean, and the colors are easier to distinguish.  THe small changes I'd recommend:
 * Sikkim's independent government was overthrown a couple of weeks ago, IIRC.
 * I don't think that the North American UNion overlaps with Utah; that was an error on my map.
 * The NAU might more accurately be shown as three countries with a common color, like the Nordic countries. (I'm pretty sure that when I made the other map I hadn't actually read the NAU page.)
 * More of central Italy should be no-man's land. My map used diagonal stripes only because the Alpine and Sicilian colors were too hard to tell apart when I used dots.
 * But basically... wow! Benkarnell 03:24, October 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks about Sikkim, I did not hear about that. So it's part of the UIP now?
 * I'll fix the Utah-NAU border.
 * I'll separate the states for the NAU. While doing this, I tryed to decide what to do about Siberia. With the addition of Mongolia, Uyghuristan and Khazakhstan to it, I thought I might want a solid border like with the Nordic Union and, as you said, the NAU. But I thought they might be too centralized a state for that. What do you think?
 * I based Italy off of the page; for territory it said that they owned it up to Milan. I did think this was odd, and I guess you agree. So will they extend to, say, the ruins of Rome? Also, don't you think Sicily might be able to control the nearby Tunisia also?
 * Thanks for the help! --DarthEinstein 03:42, October 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hm, that is odd about Sicily. I think the no-man's-land as I had described it was based on the previous map. Maybe Sicily only claims Italy up to Milan?  Or, Milan was the high-water-mark of their advance, but is not securely under their control?   And I know I have heard something about Sicily controling at least part of Tunisia.  As for the Siberian states, I'm not sure, since that's a family of articles that I also have not read yet.  (Sorry!)  Finally, can I suggest a darkish blue for the NAU?  Benkarnell 04:03, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Okay here's the next update on the map. I haven't added names yet, but I have corrected a few things and added the dots representing influence. If there are any countries I've missed or made the borders wrong for a country let me know. --DarthEinstein 18:40, October 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good. A couple things I'm now noticing, and sorry for not seeing them before:

Benkarnell 22:05, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Namibia's situation is still far from certain. Same iwth South Africa, actually, but at least this approximtes the countries we know are there.
 * The Yugoslav Union is smaller - I think it may have lost Slovenia & Dalmatia for unknown reasons.
 * Manitoba/ Assiniboia is small, but not _that_ small, I think.
 * I don't think Sicily would control all of Tunisia, on its exact original borders.

Wow,this is exactly what I envisioned the USSR would have in terms of land.It's great,good job.--Vladivostok 19:37, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you missed . Also I know  is pretty small but is there any way you can make sure its identified on the map?  [EDIT] Never mind.  When I zoom on the map I see that you did mark it.  Mitro 20:33, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Zanzibar will be labeled, though I know right now it's practically invisible from a zoomed out point of view. From what I read about Algeria, it is divided into city-states, and so I wasn't sure how to make any borders. I decided that once I got to the name-adding stage I would just write "Algerian city-states" in the region. And thanks about the USSR, I was unsure if that was accurate. Should the different republics be separated by black lines, though, like with the NAU and Nordic Union? Also I'll correct Tunisia, Assiniboia, and the Yugoslave Union. With regards to South Africa though, I understand that it is in a state of canonical flux or something, so maybe I should just keep those borders for now and it can be corrected later when it calms down. --DarthEinstein 22:28, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,the Union isn't as decentralized as the NAU or the Nordic Union,I think keeping it this way,with the colorless borders in the middle would work fine.--Vladivostok 22:33, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Once I find a decent map of BC, I'll actually mark New Caledonia/Prince George's borders, as they encompass a lot more than marked. --Oerwinde 20:10, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bc2010.png shows how BC will be divided next year, but also shows the borders of Prince George/New Caledonia. --Oerwinde 21:37, October 31, 2009 (UTC)



I respectfully wish that whoever is creating the new map use these borders for Assiniboia. It is an old map of the Red River Colony, another name given for it was Assiniboia. --Yankovic270 20:34, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll do that. --DarthEinstein 20:43, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. Just a small note on North Germany, though it is not (yet?) included on the map in the article itself, the nation has recently expanded to the formerly Dutch province of Groningen, it might be nice if that were reflected on the map. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:58, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * It is included, just very small. I'll be sure to make the change. --DarthEinstein 16:24, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

I think we recently agreed that Belize is smaller, mostly coastal, and that a lot of the inland territory was lost. I could be wrong. Benkarnell 14:07, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I really think Assiniboia is too large. Mitro 15:04, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

It is not like I am claiming all of Canada between Vctoria and the Remainder Provinces. I don't think Assiniboia's claim is excessive. The only impact is Winnipeg, as they pretty much made the area around it just as much a no-man's-land as the area around Chernobyl. And they did not claim it all at once. Maybe they started with what is shown on the new map so far, and just recently reached these borders. --Yankovic270 15:27, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think my biggest problem is that you are basing this on a vague and old colonial map and not on any other evidence on how far the nation could extend its borders. Furthermore what about the Lakota?  They managed to take over most of North and South Dakota and yet that map makes it look like that never happened.  Mitro 15:37, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Ok fine. get rid of the colonial map. But Assiniboia still controls at least a small chunk of North Dakota. You said that the Lakota took over most of the Dakotas. It is possible that there is a a small piece that is not in Aboriginal hands. --Yankovic270 15:43, November 3, 2009 (UTC) Umm,there have been some changes to the Kazakh article that were unavoidable,since the regions I picked would have been severely bombed. Here's a map detailing what the Siberians would control,bordered in black. The bombed regions are a closed zone in the USSR. That will be shown in more detail,once Hellerick makes a map showing this.--Vladivostok 20:48, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Can someone give me a report on how the map is coming? Mind that Assiniboia needs to be enlarged and given at least a small piece of North Dakota. But Lets face it. The new map so far only gives the Lakota a small portion of the dakotas. It still is plausible that Assiniboia can get as much North Dakota as possible.And while the southern border of Assiniboia is in question, the Northern isn't. I'd like that border to follow the colonial map as much as possible. --Yankovic270 22:10, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I've enlarged Assiniboia and I've added the new borders for Prince George. I think I'm going to go ahead and add the country names soon. Once that's done I'll upload it again. --DarthEinstein 00:34, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Simply put, I still want Assiniboia's borders to bear some resemblance to the map I had chosen. --Yankovic270 04:42, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, they will. --DarthEinstein 05:23, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Again I ask, why should they? Your map is an old map of the colony, it has nothing to do with the present TL.  Mitro 15:17, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just because it's a map of an old colony doesn't mean it can't roughly coincide with this country. Yankovic just happened across a map which looked like what he wanted his country to look like. --DarthEinstein 17:01, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

The map shows the borders of the last incarnation of Assiniboia, the Red River Colony. Anyone who has even a basic knowledge of the history of the area would understand that this Assiniboia would mimic the borders of its predecessor as much as possible. Yankovic270 17:21, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why would they micmic the borders of the old colony? The likely expansion of the place would be a sphere, not a the shape the map represents.  The old colony map represented a vague idea of the boundries of the colony not based on geography and other factors.  Mitro 18:08, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Mitro, the borders follow a natural watershed; take another look at that map. I don't know hther a confederation of Manitoban towns would be able to, or have a need to, incorporate settlements from North Dakota, especially since the Dakotas were a region of heavy fighting in the late 80s.  (Or am I wrong?)  But the Red River Colony was not a "map coloring exercise" colony; it was indeed based on natural geography.  Yankovic, obviously that's too huge. Or were you joking?  Benkarnell 02:17, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

No I never joke when it comes to my nations. I only changed my idea because of how important the one complaining about it was in the wiki. Now that I have some support I hearby go back to my original idea. Except Assiniboia contains absolutely no former American territory. Yankovic270 02:30, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * As I look at the map again I can see that it did follow the natural geography. That being said it is still too large for the nation in question.
 * When did I become "important"? I don't even have full admin powers.  Sure I'm active but I'm not the boss of 1983: Doomsday or even this Wiki.  Hell I'm going to be gone for a month soon, but I'm sure you guys will survive without me.  Mitro 05:57, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I allready promised I would abandon any claims to former American territory. Yankovic270 13:18, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * @Yankovic: please do not take criticism to personal here...even though I understand if it touches "your" nations...No one offended you in person. And changes are generally to be made out from discussions and consensus reached, not by decision of someone considered "important" (@ mitro: your long and always fruitful contributions earned you some reputation within this (and the WCRB),, nothign bad about it)...No one is the "god" or "omnipotent institution" of this Timeline, neither Mitro, Benkarnell, me (though a few times I was tempted to think that, I openly admit) or someone else. If I am called upon, I try to find a settlement and thats it basically. I give my comments, and if in a rare situation a decision is needed to be done, ok... but that´s it. --Xi&#39;Reney 21:00, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

New map of former USA and Canada:
i created a new map to paste in there all new norther america nation, because we know limit inter brasil-venezuela, but what is the fontier canada-superior? where is easter texas? delmarva and virgina are in the same place? Dineta have sea cost? who of them have contact to great mexican republic? i paste North American Union in blue, around whyomyn, add your country and upload a new version of that file, i was count 23 entities in former USA and Canada, where?--Fero 01:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Assiniboia has most of Manitoba, except for the Hudson Bay coast. Virginia has a good chunk of Southeast Ohio, most of Virginia, all of West Virginia and all of Maryland not under Delmarva control. And Lincoln has all of Nebraska not under NAU control. --Yankovic270 01:32, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * okey, you can paint the map to we all read that easyly and clearly--Fero 02:24, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * look this, is relevant--Fero 02:53, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yankovic, after reading the discussion about Virginia's borders, I think the general consensus is that you're waaaaaaaay too optimistic, and Virginia as it stands would be hard pressed to control ONE of the three territories you say it's claimed - let alone all three. There's just too much population in that area for an easy assertion of control. Louisiannan 20:02, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

You can look at the map on the West Texas page for the borders of east and west Texas, relative to the former TTL (current OTL) state of Texas. If I can find a free equivalent of MS Paint for Mac OS X, I'll add Texas/Vermont/northern townships to the map.--BrianD 04:50, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added Utah and adjusted borders. From the Utah article, we know also that there are City-States in Idaho that aren't part of the NAU or Deseret.  We also know that there is some sort of government centered around Spokane. Louisiannan 23:56, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, but as I said on the discussion for the new Virginian flag, I have absolutely no artistic talent. The maps I created were with MS Paint, and Virginia's borders aren't exactly easy to plot. Yankovic270 00:08, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

New Virginian flag
Now that Virginia is officially starting to help the other survivors states in the South, they need a more politcally correct flag. Their current flag is offensive everywhere but the "Neo-Confederate" states. And no, I will not accept either Virginia or West Virginia's flags. Inspired by the little contest for the new flag for the NAU (and by the fact that I don't have an artistic bone in my body), I will take ideas for the new flag. Post your ideas either here or on my talk page, and I will judge them fairly.

PS: Owen1983, since you were disqualified for not being inivited, consider this an invitation.

Yankovic270 02:33, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, here's my contribution. The blue field is the blue of the West Virginia and Virginia flag, the Cardinal is the state bird of both Virginias, Kentucky, and Ohio, and the stars represent the parts of each former state that are part of the republic. --Oerwinde 11:56, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

i like this flag. its unique.--HAD 12:21, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

We need at least two more flags for me to make a desision. HAD, why don't you make the flag you talked about in the Virginia talkpage. Yankovic270 12:44, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oerwinde, thats a very pretty flag. Benkarnell 15:33, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Until there are other actual choices, I will uses Oerwinde's flag. Yankovic270 00:21, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

i don't know how to crate flags. like i said, i like this falg. its cool. ho and bye the way, box containig info on North American Nations has'nt had the flag changerd.neither has THE WCP page been updated --HAD 10:22, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Nor do I. That is the whole point of this little contest. With only a single candidate, this contest isn't very much of a contest. For one thing, there needs to be other choices. I like Option 1, but where's Option 2, 3 or 4? --Yankovic270 20:18, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Flle spelling standard
I think we should make some file spelling standard for uploaded files... it drives me crazy guessing names, or browsing through the galleries (not complete anyway...) sth. for flags, for maps, pictures etc. like 83DD_map_XYZ!"$·%%, 83DD_flag_xyzº12345, 83DD_photo_dasiud, 83DD_coa_ABCRUNFURSOMETHING... with 83DD btw the easiest abbreviation Ive seen so far. suggestion --Xi&#39;Reney 20:13, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Template:MeCaCa83 Mexico Caribe and Centroamerica
almost, paste that where must be, thank U, and we have a lot of unwrited territory in that reagion, 50.000.000 peoples who we nont now if are alive (of course they are) and how--Fero 13:22, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Template:SouthAmerica83 Template South America target
a little help to finish this is welcome--Fero 21:56, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Latest archive (Nov 25), sub-sub-sections
I archived lots of huge discussions. As always, feel free to rescue your discussion if you were not satisfied that it was concluded. I also got rid of the sub-sub-sections in the "Politics" discussion; they made archiving difficult and would never stay the same, anyway. Benkarnell 17:46, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1

Fashion??
How does the world dress 26 years after a Doomsday event?? Are we all wearing radiation protection suits? Are all children Gothics? Or are the eighties somehow goin on (cruel...)?? The one account the original TL (before my interaction) was that people in Australia are getting used to wear thick layers of clothes all the time... Weird... just browsing through some non-political topics ... at least a nudist movement would be quite unlikely to survive, giving UV intensity...--Xi&#39;Reney 20:39, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Everyone in Virginia wears one variation or another of a military uniform. They wear uniforms even after the President-General started loosening the iron fist. Now they wear them of their own free will. --Yankovic270 21:30, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

in Mancunia

People were pretty much what they want in Greater Mancunia but thay were radiation shoots when they go on a pilgrimidge to old Trafford because there is still radiation there Owen1983 17:16, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Owen, we have told you numerous times that Mancunia is too implausible to a be a part of this TL. Please stop bringing it up.  Mitro 17:20, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Celebrities
I am curious. What happened to the various celebrities of each survivor state? I think that, if aplicable, there should be a "Celebrity" section to each nation. --Yankovic270 00:46, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Religion: Unification of Orthodox/Catholic Church ?
As much as I may be opposed to it, I still think it should be proposed...
 * With Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism in tatters (Australia, Greece, New Zealand, Turkey being the strongest vestiges of Orthodoxy, South America being the strongest of Catholicism) the two religions might be more prompted to unite the Ancient Churches. Of course whoever is the caretaker of Catholicism might want to discuss it as obviously everyone here is going to have a different idea. Though there are still a great many matters that would need to be taken care of. Would the new South American pope even want to relinguish power to nothing more than "First Among Equals".

Mr.Xeight 02:57, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * How can Turkey have the strongest vestiges of Orthodoxy? What about all those people in Socialist Siberia?--Vladivostok 13:50, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Could someone shed some light on the proportionalities/basic principles in the Orhodoxy? Like numbers of followers in each country? And international hierarchy in between the Orthodox Church??

I would really welcome it if we treat the religious topics in a careful way (evolving them through rational discussion) as it is too simple to offend some readers/contributors with this issue !!--Xi&#39;Reney 20:49, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say it had a BIG population, only that there more Greeks who jumped ship from the Motherland and headed East. Northern Greece certianly doesn't, nor Thrace, nor Yugoslavia, they're all dead! And didn't the USSR surpress Orthodoxy anyway? Besides, are there even a lot of Orthodox Christians in the Russin Far East? I could just be stereotyping here, but I'm guessing the great percentage of the native Turkic Tribes of Siberia and the like are animists or shamanists? And of course you have to take into affect whether any Orthodox Christians in Siberia could even communicate with their Western brothers.
 * Xi, I can look it up. If all else fails, I can inquire to my priest, I'm sure he can direct me to an Inter-Orthodox website.
 * To answer about inter-Orthodox hierarchy, it's complicated... Let's use me for example. I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian under the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North & South America (now called "The Americas"). I can attend liturgy at an Antiochan, or Russian, or Ukrainian, or even an Oriental Orthodox (who are not in-communion with us.). I can even receive communion from any of the above churches (though receiving from an Oriental Orthodox church is frowned upon). That's about it. We're "expected" (a great deal of rules are unwritten and unofficial, they're more like guidelines you're expected to folow) to only get confession from our own subsect, meaning I can not receive confession from a Russian Orthodox priest. Unless there's a shortage in the area, priests from their respective sects give liturgy at their own church. I know of some saints who were Greek that became Patriarchs in Russia, but of course this was hundreds of years ago. There is an inter-Orthodox Group I know of, SCOBA (Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas).
 * Doomsday might change all of this. For all we know the surviving Russian and Serbian monks who were forced to leave Mt. Athos might be able to hold liturgy in Greek churches now.

Mr.Xeight 23:29, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any ideas at all? Is the caretaker of DD's Catholicism interested? Mr.Xeight 22:58, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

i have not had much thaught on catholism but but I agrre reunifications a logical step --Owen1983 00:25, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

You did not just say that...
 * You do know that there are other Christian religions out there besides Catholicism & Protestantism right? You do know that there Orthodox Christianity is the 2nd largest Christian religion? You have no idea how much that angers me to see so much ignorance in Western Europeans and Americans who choose not to look beyond their own life.
 * Do not come to my page and give me an apology, in-fact don't bother responding to this comment. Just be more informed next time you open your mouth to comment.

Mr.Xeight 00:35, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

As a Protestant, I feel like anything I have to say on this matter is limited at best. But I'm not inclined to believe that even a nuclear war would necessarily lead Roman Catholicism and the various branches of Orthodoxy to seek to become one Church. I am inclined to believe that adherents of Catholicism and Orthodoxy would continue to follow their own faiths.--BrianD 01:02, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Owen 1983 is being his usual, irksome self again causing ditress for all. This time he created a page for the "Catholic Church", giving it only a completely made up timeline and a horrific stream of sickening typos.
 * Xi'Reney, have fun trying to discipline him; as if any attempts have been successful in the past. Hopefully this time he won't say I'm in cahoots with him trying to off one of DD's integral parts of the interworkings of the creative process.

Mr.Xeight 01:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Xeight...agree, the Catholic Church thing is quite awfully made...though yet solved. if I should alone be trying to discipline this TL, the discussions and all around it...then I would have a new full-time job... which I would love to do indeed :) I think the wiki dynamic regarding corrections/discipline is quite reliable in this...even though I tend to believe that you will have a close view on his behaviour/contributions, out of personal motivation, won´t you?...--Xi&#39;Reney 20:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense that there would be a vestige of Eastern Orthodoxy in Turkey. After all, the religion was officially started in the city then known as Constantinople. --Yankovic270 21:32, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

And what about the Mormons? Or the Baptists, Lutherists, Anglicans and other Protestant sects? They did not vanish after DD. In fact, I think Utah might have made Mormonism their official religion. Yankovic270 21:49, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Video Games
To make myself clear before there are any misunderstandings, this is not about the '83: DD timeline being turned into a video game. This is about the video games made in the timeline. For instance, I imagine a video game version of the Virginian propaganda film "Rebirth of a Nation". In it you play former President-General Thompson as he travels from Kentucky into West Virginia, and as he defeats the "evil" warlords. Any other ideas? --Yankovic270 00:46, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

The video game industry for this timeline looks bleak. North America was just getting into the video game crash of 1983 when DD happened. Nintendo might still be around as they are based out of Kyoto. However, thanks to Japans isolationist policy they are unlikely to spread out of their home market and save the video game industry like they did OTL. Thus I am wondering if video games would even exist as a popular form of entertainment 83DD TL. The one silver lining might be that Europe had a fairly robust computer game market at the time, so assuming there are a few video game developers left in the Euro-Atlantic fringe we might see a few computer games coming out every now and then, but nothing compared to what we see today.--ShutUpNavi 18:37, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Revitalising idea: 1983: Doomsday TL in Videogames?
As I finally aquired a version of Supreme Ruler 2020 I wanted to revive a discussion we head breifely a time ago.. Does anybody have an idea to work out a plausible and workable realisation of the 1983: Doomsday TL into a suitable videogame? By building a mod, a scenario etc.? I am no computer geek so I would have had more ideas yet as this keeps me fascinating... to imagine interacting in the world of 1983: Doomsday...

Some possibilities I would see:

Does anybody have any ideas of this? Or anywhere someone tried this before? Il bethisad or so? Maybe some Timelines from this wiki have been used somewhere? --Xi&#39;Reney 19:47, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Civilization IV: here I even started creating a world scenario mirroring the World in 2008 of 1983 DD, but it was when so many things were not described yet so I kind of let it go down the drain...also because of the details of CivIV were at that point overwhelming...just do have no access to it right now...
 * Supreme Ruler 2020: tentativly started to find sth. to do it with this game as it would be the closest plausible idea I can imagine...but there is no map editor/easy scenario editor and the modding by editing files is scary for me...
 * Superpower 2: fairly unuseful as far as I know the game...only for maybe a Doomsday simulation I could imagine


 * It sounds good in principle... but modding a game is a lot of work. I've tried modding Civ 4 before, I created a "Canada" faction... but this is much more complex of course. It would be a project spanning several months as far as I can tell... perhaps even a year. Also there is the question of which countries to add as factions. Technologies would be tricky as well... I'd assume that the game would progress in months from September 1983. Since technology isn't improving at a very fast rate in this TL, technology would be sort of useless. We could replace it with something else I suppose... though what I don't know. Culture would also be problematic. In Civ 4, culture determines control over the surrounding regions, however that doesn't translate well into this TL. So we could replace culture with, say, self-sufficiency? Or something like that. Anyway, those are my ideas. Those other games I haven't heard of. --DarthEinstein 20:35, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I think the best way to achieve the territorial extent and smaller nations etc. would be to mod Hearts of Iron 3. Its a WWII game, but heavily modable. The game is super complex though.--Oerwinde 22:14, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

my idea would be A GTA game GTA Arostook were you play a drug dealer in a post DD city--Owen1983 01:07, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear Holocaust Bibliography ..Amazing collection
foun in wikipedia a potentially interesting: Nuclear Holocaust Bibliography... Have a look ... Did anyone see this before?? Anybody knows who is teh author of this? Might be something useful... :)!!--Xi&#39;Reney 21:54, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just going through letter "a" takes me a long time... This is definitely an amazing collection which took a long time to write...Fascinating...--Xi&#39;Reney 22:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Continued this sunday on letters c,d and e... took me about 2 hours, with looking up some of the books/stories mentioned. Just can recommend this again !--Xi&#39;Reney 20:42, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I read a few pages on that site, Xi'Reney. Amazing resource. I recommend Warday by Streiber. I don't necessarily agree with his premises, but it probably accurately reflects the effects of even a limited nuclear war on the U.S.--BrianD 22:34, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Cricket
Cricket would be popular in the Indo-Australian sphere at least and also in New Britain. It is the national sport of Australia, so I think it has a chance of retaining its earlier position.--MC Prank 15:58, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Economic question - which currency has replaced the US dollar?
Discussion moved to.

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

I'm creating a page on CANZ Armed Forces.--MC Prank 15:25, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

India articles
I added information on Khalistan and Operation Red Blood which was blank before that. Any ratification problem --MC Prank 15:25, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 05:56, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/India_(1983:_Doomsday), here. --MC Prank 07:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * See also Republic of Khalistan (1983: Doomsday) and . Mitro 03:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations.  Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines.  nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean.  Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s.  Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation.  Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

War in the Mediterranean!
Discussion moved to Talk:Second Sicily War (1983: Doomsday). Benkarnell 19:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Article has been completely rewritten. User:Riley.Konner 10:39, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

There is currently a dispute about whether this article should remain in canon. Please see the article's talk page. Mitro 14:54, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Discussion moved to. It had just gotten really, really long, and we seemed to be arriving at a consensus anyway. I'm planning on writing an article in the next couple of days, but they're going to be very busy. If someone else wants to write it based on our discussion, I won't mind. Benkarnell 15:51, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Guyana Cooperativa & French Guyana and Suriname
Why exactly is Guyana not a member of the South American Confederation? It's one of the earliest country pages we have, yet it's never been explained. Is it only a matter of time, do you think?

Along the same lines, with the SAC such a powerful and prosperous organization, have any neighboring states (Central America, the Caribbean) requested membership? Or candidate/observer status? Benkarnell 03:09, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * I have always thought that the natural expansion of the SAC would take it north into Central America and even Mexico. I think Colombia annexing that Costa Rica island is a good example of that.  Mitro 15:08, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * I never developed the Guayana cooperativa to more than a 3 - lines- status... It was created even before Fero added the South American Confederation so it is more a relict country...I tried to give this another destiny than Being absorbed into a unified South America due to French Guyana being always something special as a French territory...

referring to my established description of Guiana Space Centre (1983: Doomsday) and the events between the French Foreign Legion and BRazilian forces "KOrou incident".... the Korou Space centre being a cornerstone for International Cooperation and crucial I would propose the following:

and the Korou Space Centre after the Korou Incident be put under joint French-Brazilian administration in the first place. This later being modified into SAC-French/RTE administration, but NOT becoming part of SAC because resistance from European remainder Government. Suriname (or a leader) seeing advantages of turning to neither European influence nor SAC proposes merging the territories forming some kind of a "South American Switzerland" in 2002. PLebiscites in both countries decide by tight margin to form a unified government declaring "eternal neutrality". The Country being reorganised in a way like pre DD-Switzerland. BOth SAC and European Remainders accept because of Guiana Space Centre and to have a neutral buffer in between. IN the following it would copy Swis strategies and offer attractive tax conditions etc.... becoming an important international HUB, at least in between European and South American Trade. A lot of European Refugees enter and help boost the economy to a relatively rich country.
 * French Guyana& Suriname merging

After the foundation of the LoN in 2009 Suriname/French Guyana place themselves under LON direct administration, giving a basis for international organisations and a precedence for a sovereign nation putting itself under jurisdictional orders.

I would keep the name by communities after a brief stage of civil war starting to cooperate and calling itself Guyana Cooperativa firstly being drawn into the SAC becoming a member state going the "normal way". Maybe a internal political dispute about joining Suriname/French Guyana might arise in the 2000's feeling unimportant along the SAC...
 * Guyana = Guyana Cooperativa

This would be my idea i will start working on now... I reverted the Guyana cooperativa back to Proposal status and insert the pages about French Guyana and Suriname according to above mentioned ideas. PLease keep the pages themselves intact until I announce my proposal work being finished!!!

ANy comments, especially on the idea of converting French Guyana/Suriname into a "international model/precedence state" are welcome. Also keep in mind the proposal of the LoN AUthority for Spatial Operations. But please plce them here !!!--Xi&#39;Reney 20:52, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ;Thank you... and I am feeling the vibe of working on DD again... yeahay...


 * the separate country pages are opened and in proposal status now. --Xi&#39;Reney 21:51, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Wait, isn't the Guyana Cooperativa the former Guyana and Suriname? If so, why do we need an article for Suriname? --DarthEinstein 22:00, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Because I propose a fundamental change in the situation reverting what was somehow canon before regarding Guyana cooperativa..! An Suriname being not that spanish-like many of its neighbours i believe it an interesting move to vary it a bit!...--Xi&#39;Reney 18:44, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to say that I don't like the idea of French Guiana being under direct administration of the LoN. We talked about that idea with the Celtic Alliance berfore, and came to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense for a relatively developed nation to willingly give up its own self government.  It's not as though it were a sensitive, small area like the Canal Zone or Malta - it's a big country, and one with a history of democracy.  Besides which, it would put the country's fate in the hands of who-knows-what faction that happens to be in control of the League.  I think French Guiana is able to declare itself a neutral nation without becoming LoN territory.  Switzerland, after all, managed to do that in OTL, and Vermont is starting to do that in TTL/.  Benkarnell 23:08, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ceding sovereignty indeed just doesn't make sense to me. Even the current LoN territories would be sui generis entities in International Relations which would require a profound restructuring of the way we think about sovereignty. Employing this principle on a country scale seems, at least for the coming decades, just one bridge too far to me.


 * I must admit that I already had some ideas on the Guyana Cooperativa as it used to be, though I never posted them for fear of turning the place as incomprehensible as South Africa due to my lack of time to actually write an article about it. Now that it is being discussed anyway I feel I might as well post it:
 * Venezuela claims the part of Guyana that is west of the Essequibo river, I believe I have seen on several maps that the Venezuelans would try to reclaim the area which I guess makes sense.
 * In a desperate attempt to fend of the invasion, Guyanan authorities might seek help from Suriname.
 * Military dictator Desi Bouterse of Suriname, though not formally speaking in charge surely the 'strong man' of the country at the time, could send his military to the east bank of the Essequibo river. Since I reckon the Venezuelans just won't be interested in conquering the east bank and won't bother crossing it the Surinamese troops won't meet much, if any, resistance. Something I guess one would exploit by claiming this to be a 'tremendous military victory'.
 * The atmosphere created after the invasion will have brought the two countries together, paving the way towards the union as used to be described in the article.
 * Because the country was created after a Venenzuelan invasion, this also gives us a plausible reason for the country not being a member of the SAC.
 * Anyway, it's just an idea. Feel free to comment or to just ignore it. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:08, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Your objections are very plausible. I would propose to merge everything together and get a derivated guideline to which I would base the proposal articles:


 * Guyana and Suriname: maintain from first day on a strong cooperation (as it was established back in May 2008 when I started working on Country Profiles...Guyana Cooperativa even outdates ANZC, SAC, Indonesia and Hawaii...would be a shame to throw away oldest canon parts!)
 * They finally and quickly unite (GUYANA COOPERATIVA) and are able to fend off the Venezuelan attack as Karsten describes...Then an informal "peace/stalemate" is more or less lasting over the years...resulting in Venezuela formally blocking every initiative admitting the Guyana Cooperativa to the SAC though Brazil, French Guyana and other states maintain friendly relations with the GC... a bit feels like a post-doomsday Taiwan, no? leaving space for internal political disputes about joining the SAC or not)


 * French Guyana: Resulting from the "Korou Incident" and the following treaty Brazil guarantees French Guyana's Sovereignty which the Local administration (encouraged by the remains of France and the RTF --- sth. which I completely missed out until now) preserves throughout the years. Some point in 2001 or 2002 French Guyana (then lead by the former Commander of the French Foreign Legion) encouraged by the growing own importance at the SAC/European - Hemisphere Crossing (Guyana Space Centre etc.) proclaims its independence, declaring neutrality and giving itself a constitution modeled on the old Swiss one. International Organisations and also Companies (drawn by special tax laws, especially Commonwealth Multinationals open their dependencies) settle in and around Korou... --Xi&#39;Reney 20:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Makes perfect sense I'd say. Let's go for that :). --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 16:47, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Is the Cooperativa interested in joining neutral French Guiana? I ask because of the 3 stars on the flag and the undertanding till now that there was a movement for all three to unite somehow.  Maybe the Cooperativa government and the French government have agreed in principle to pursue unification, but have been unable to make concrete progress.  Central America made a similar agreement in the 1990s.  Benkarnell 19:33, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is what has been established before, right... as we seem to have consent that the Cooperativa is NOT part of the SAC...

an idea would be to introduce the unification idea of being brought up from a major party/movement in the 2000´s seeing the success of French Guyana in recent years...holding this flag as symbol...this based on having a small and low voice being not in the SAC... a bit hard to imagine the reaction in French Guyana (not pissing of the SAC?) I would favorize general welcome and some talks beginning in 2006...but not advancing to much... I will write this into the proposal pages :)--Xi&#39;Reney 20:10, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

sorry i was not read all that thrad but Guayana Cooperativa is just because some time post doomday venezuela conquest quicly and easy Guayana Esequiba, and the rest of damaged Guyana find a better her future join with suriname, i dont remember is we write that deeply in the canon but that is was we talk in talkpage many time ago many times, details are open to your work, and i am fero--190.48.146.41 22:40, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Delmarva
In addition to my ongoing work on the Middle East, I have created a survivor nation on the former US East Coast, Delmarva. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Delmarva_(1983:_Doomsday) I have already opened a discussion page and laid out some of my thoughts. Since this is still a work in progress, I welcome your feedback and suggestions. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 03:28, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Tennessee/Blue Ridge
Proposal pages for the Morristown and Asheville areas I referred to in the 2009 WCRB report on the southern U.S. I wrote up. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Tennessee_%281983:_Doomsday%29 http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Ridge_%281983:_Doomsday%29 --BrianD 00:30, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Russian SFSR,Ural Territory,Manchurian Socialist Republic
Are there any objections to these articles being considered as canon?--Vladivostok 16:46, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * A small thing, could we rename the Russian SFSR as just "Russia." It would be a lot easier to remember when linking.  Also is it possible to provide a list of targets hit in Manchuria?  Other then that I am ok with graduating these articles.  Mitro 18:08, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure,no problem,I'll rename it now. Yeah,the Manchurian target list is still a work in progress,that's why I wasn't too specific in the economy section of the USSR on what industries it has now. I'll work on the specific list,do you want me to add it to the article,or just write it here purely for reference?--Vladivostok 19:34, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I would like to bring up some thoughts about this...It is not that I am somehow anti-commi, anti soviet or that the articles are not well written...

I just have a bit of doubts about that many Soviet/Communist/ Socialist states emerging (respectively Soviet expansion that rapidly and nearly automatically..

I try to imagine the situation in Far East Asia, Especially the Soviet Union after a nuclear holocaust...it was a very centralised state, being focussed on Moscow in general and the few large cities especially... IN between you have vast vast spaces of -if any- small isolated pockets of civilisation. And in theory you belong to one immense nation and live in a strong political system guarded by security mechanisms (army, KGB etc.)...But in reality you are somehow lightyears (or thousand kilometres) away from the political theatre. The people in this region stick to their own (folks and people) and somehow get along with the system forced upon them.

IN US Wargames everything would be focussed on taking out the important targets, and Cities like Moscow, Vlavistock, Irkutsk, Yekaterinburg, St. Petersburg (Petrograd) and military targets spread out about the vast territory... with the aim to make out as much of the appartschicks as possible, hoping for the systenm to be taken out...

What I am aiming at is that I have strong doubts a Soviet (Socialist) System even with democratic face would be that easily manifested and especially be accepted and welcomed by the people. Keep in mind the contrast between he Soviet system ruling the people (especially in the Satellite states and east of the Ural) formally being an atheistic, equal, socialist system on the one hand and the babylonic diversity of different nations, religions, traditions, ethnicities in the mosaiced USSR, even in RUssia itself...

With Socialist Siberia I get along very well, plasubly explained, well maintained etc.. So given a Soviet authority surviving there and able to establish order, food supplies, security, reganing some military strength, rebuilding the infrastructure etc...ok...rhen setting out to "reestablish a soviet/socialist system, if necessary by force (the Alaska conflict which I still "

but now imagine the reaction of the surrounding regions meeting someone trying to reestablish some variation of the System which
 * caused WWIII
 * suppressed entire ethnicities (respectively their traditions) for decades
 * costed millions of people their lives (in history)

of course in the first time (months, years) you take: food, water, help, shelter etc. (The one's bread i part, his song I sing a German saying) but on the long run I would have strong doubts the Soviet System would be that easily spread out again and accepted in all those territories!! So I object to the quickness and easiness communism is restored...Keep in mind the Soviet Union OTL falling apart wihin a few years and conflicts going on until today...

This is the content- and logic-based objection...And I am not accusing anyone of establishing influenced by his own favour for possibly his own country --Xi&#39;Reney 20:00, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

But there is also a general concern I have - and always had from the first day on- about large power blocs (naming/behaving themselves empires or not) in this Timeline being introduced, becoming canon...I always fear something too strong would negatively impact the diversity and space for creative exploration and imagination of this Timeline and reinfluence a lot of the work on especially smaller regions/countries / commnuities...

This is a personal dislike i freely admit...but it was always my guidance in my work on the 183: Doomsday Timeline of not letting it become a world dominated by 2 or three powers to the extent USA, Soviet Union had in our world...rather more a bit more fractured and variable...to vary it a bit from the dominating "Soviet World Rule", "American Empire", "NAzy Germany Victory", "3-4-5 powers have a nuclear/space race to dominate the world", etc scenarios...I am not dreaming of an egalitarian world as you all know...(damn the world is nuked for large parts!!)

But this is my personal concern about this Timeline/Scenario and I wanted to remind you of this... --Xi&#39;Reney 20:00, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,I personally believe that the break up that happened here,probably wouldn't happen in the TL. The reason being,other than the changed circumstances,that people would probably want to become a part of any country that has a plan and leadership after such a drastic event as a nuclear war. People wouldn't fight over ethnic differences and such,rather petty disputes after a doomsday-like event.In fact,I think that this would bring people closer together. I agree that the Soviet Union had a very centralized government and I tried to come up with a solution to that. A man from the old regime,in this case Aliyev,survives the war and manages to organize the remaining population and military,who were starting to fight each other without strong leadership. Most military installations would get destroyed,but since the USSR launched its missiles first,it would have some,albeit small,time to save some men and material. Granted, the Chinese would be angry to say the least,but they would also try to fight for their own survival and would eventually learn to live together with the nations of the USSR. The Uyghurs I would see readily join Siberia,as well as the Mongolians and Kazakhs. The Manchurian part would be a bit reluctant but their desperate situation would probably bring them around. I know the USSR seems far-flung, but seeing as how a lot of areas currently in the Union weren't bombed, the first strike doctrine,the communist system in place and the people's resilience, I think they would have a good chance. Not all nations bombed would necessarily disintegrate into small waring states. Amalgamations would occur somewhere.--Vladivostok 20:19, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism is the only kind of government that can survive in the extremal situation the nations of the former Soviet Union and China found themselves in. After the initial shock, and the chaos following, they gladly welcomed the power that brought order, stability, and... well, food. Don't take the word "Socialist" too seriously. Just like in the OTL, there were nearly no real (sincere) communists among the elite. The people of Siberia tend to see the time before the war as their golden days, when everything was alright, they tend to idealize it forgetting about the troubles they had then (because they were nothing comparing to what they had after the war). When they Socialism, they mean "the brilliant past we've lost and will regain", not a social formation. On the other hand, "emergency socialism", is how this nation's system can be described.

Don't forget that the Soviet Union had been preparing for the war. Of course most statesmen were killed, but backup government schemes were developed in advance. No matter how few political and military leaders survived the war, they already were instructed how to coopereate with each other. So it was relatively easy to restore the government. — Hellerick 03:28, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

British elections
British elections coming up! Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * See 2009 Realm of New Britain General Election (1983: Doomsday) for the article in question. Mitro 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Growing National Liberalist party in New Britain. Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Iowa
I Have created this artical here http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Republc_of_Iowa_%281983_Doomsday%29%29 what do people thin I Know Yankovic expressed interest in thi article

Criminal State
I want to create a nation lead by Criminals in the United States. I have two ideas for the nation: 1. A mafia state simmilar to that of Sicily. Could be lead by survivors of the Chicago Outfit or other mafia families. 2. An "Aryan Republic" lead by members of the oh-so-infamous prison gang the Aryan Brotherhood. --Yankovic270 16:08, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds good so far. Could you make a proposal page? --DarthEinstein 16:56, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * you mush find the biggest prison in USA and let them free town around gonna down by the fist of..."alcatraz"?, wikipedia say "As of 2004, the three states with the lowest ratio of imprisoned to civilian population are Maine (148 per 100,000), Minnesota (171 per 100,000), and Rhode Island (175 per 100,000). The three states with the highest ratio are Louisiana (816 per 100,000), Texas (694 per 100,000), and Mississippi (669 per 100,000).[16]", have fun--Fero 18:20, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

sounds like a good idea i think thay would want to get of the mainlan the logical choice would be ellis island but thay would need more resources getting there so i suggest misissipi--Owen1983 18:54, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * new jersey prison parody--Fero 19:04, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is something that I have proposed over the years, largely as an object of amusement. Basically, family members and relatives of those people who have edited the Alt-Hist forum, as long as they were in a location that would enable their survival, are added into this list of "Honorary Citizens", since they are among the few REAL COMMON people we know would live after Doomsday. These people would be listed under the name of the editor. Bascially included would be there names, their location on Doomsday, their current residence (or at death), and if the editor desires a brief biography on that person, mainly aimed at explaining Post-Doomsday Survival. Currently, I myself do not know of anyone who would have survived (most of my family is based in Massachusetts), but I am pretty sure the case is different for others. Lahbas 02:25, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I like this idea! It continues to push the limits of "creepy Internet behavior", of course, since we're no longer dealing with local politicians who, while very obscure, are nevertheless public figures.  These are going to be 100% private people, so we have to be extremely careful when adding to this page.  I'm personally planning on misspelling or altering the names of anyone I add (which is what I do with my own name on the Internet).  Benkarnell 02:30, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Can we include what we could imagine their occupation after Doomsday? I have an Uncle in Kelowna, and I imagine him to be the Okanogan ambassador to Victoria. And I made my Grandfather the first Prime Minister of Assiniboia. --Yankovic270 02:45, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think its a reat idea as long as there kosha with it but its a bad idea to use there rel names--Owen1983 19:12, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

This is a great idea. I agree we shouldn't use real names unless we get permission from whoever we are writing about. I would also like it if editors from this TL could add in themselves. I am sure some of us could have interesting stories of survival to tell.--ShutUpNavi 19:45, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Basically I agree, just do not get to euphoric to get people you know, your family or even yourself promoted to sth. important if you have no plausible story!!!

This bares some sort of spoil risk. This is a wiki, no personal "I Rule the World" story place!!! I can see some of you guys becoming some brave alt-history writers :)!! Me myself...probably dead, being only 4 months old...and in Western Germany close to British forces Bases nin Westphalia...--Xi&#39;Reney 20:03, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I guess it pays to be born in rural Manitoba. Did you survive Mitro? How about you Darth? --Yankovic270 21:17, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

No, neither me nor my family is alive in this TL, save possibly my great grandmother in St. John's. --DarthEinstein 22:52, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much my entire family was on Vancouver Island. Extended family as well. Except great grandparents who were in the White Rock/Tsawwassen area which was on the very outer fringe of affected area of the Vancouver bomb, so its possible they survived. So I'm doing rather well. Likely working in a factory or on a farm in Comox Valley, Dad likely still fixing cars.--Oerwinde 10:38, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

My whole family lives in very rural Lincolnshire, so who knows whats happened to me Bob 11:15, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Superior elections
Lahbas has created two articles regarding elections in Superior: 1984 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday) and 1988 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday). My one objection is with the 1988 article, because Dennis Kucinich would be in Cleveland during DD and would most likely be dead. Mitro 03:05, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Kucinich has been part of the Superior family of articles for a long time - I guess you didn't notice it before. It looks like he was elected to the Cleveland City Council in 1983.  I would assume that took place in November, except it was a special election to fill the seat of a dead councilman.  Based on this list from Cuyahoga County, "special elections" only occur to elections not in November, and so this one probably was on June 17.  Therefore, on DD Kucinich, a former Mayor, had been on Cleveland's council for a couple of months.  I suppose the next thing to look for would be any trips or vacations he could have taken around this time.  I say this because Kucinich has been part of the canon for so long, and since he founded one of Superior's political parties, there has been quite a lot written based on the premise that he survived and made it to the Mackinaw refugee camps.
 * How's this: we don't use it often because it's a lousy plot device, but for cases like this it might be useful. Fatalities in a blast zone are never 100%.  Small numbers may have survived - possibly, if they have several rounds of good luck, for years.  Kucinich woul probably have radiation scars and suffer from one or another type of cancer if he survived, but he could have, at least long enough to be active in Superior politics in the late 80s and early 90s.  Maybe Lahbas can dd that he died already from post-radiation complications.  I could remove his pic from the portrait gallery, since he would look so different from OTL.  Benkarnell 18:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well crap, this is what I get for not properly reading articles. Yeah I'm ok with that plot idea, as long as it is elaborated on somewhere.  Mitro 18:54, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article on Soviet Alaska created by Vlad. Mitro 03:10, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Fero. Mitro 03:13, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Owen. Has potential to be a general article that can be inserted into the main template. Needs a lot of work though. Mitro 03:14, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article by Smoggy. Proposal was on hiatus but is back as a proposal. Mitro 03:17, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I still like it - just enough medieval flair to be interesting, but within the bounds of reason as well. I still would like more explanation of just how and why the two kids' falling-in-love will lead to outright unification.  Whose idea it was, what steps are being taken, etc.  But since Smoggy contributes sporadically, I support graduating the article and allowing her to make changes to it knowing that it's already canon. Any objections? Benkarnell 18:05, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article, created by Bob, has been a proposal for a long time. Nation itself is canon but I don't many people have gotten a chance to review the article. Mitro 03:19, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Overall I think this fits with what's already known. One or two minor changes:


 * I thought that New Britain was mostly Anglo South Africans, not "survivors from the UK". The shiploads of refugees were nixed, I thought.
 * Regarding current events: I know that N.B. withdrew from KwaXhosa (and, apparently, the hitherto-unknown Orange Free State) in order to appease the League of Nations, of which it is an applicant member. But it seems unlikely that they left nothing whatsoever behind to take their place.  At the very least, some military observers from one of the multinational groups in South Africa (the mainly White/Coloured New Union or the mainly Black Azanian League).  Or the LoN, but they seem quite overtaxed these days.  I suppose they could get help from the ANZC and SAC troops that occupy Cape Town, as well.  At any rate, I don't understand how KwaXhosa could become a failed state barely a month after the occupation ends, unless NB wanted to leave the state destabilized (and why would they want that?).  Benkarnell 18:23, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * No there were some refugees that settled there from the UK, but they were mostly members of the government, military and a few experts, and of course their families. But these aren't the huge number of people that originally settled there in the old versions of the article.  NB is primarily made up of Anglo-Africans and Black Africans with the UK refugees forming a sort of elite upper crust.  Bob and I never did however establish just how many UK survivors did arrive.  Mitro 18:36, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Lahbas. Mitro 03:20, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Since this describes an organization that is just a proposal in-universe, I think it falls within Lahbas' area of creative control, as creator of Superior. Now I don't think that an organization like this has much chance of becoming reality, unless major changes are made to assure potential members that it is not a threat to their independence. Benkarnell 18:10, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I must say I have my doubts on the plausibility of such an organisation. With so much unclaimed and unoccupied land around in North America, and therefore a multitude of chances to expand, an International Relations system that is about as anarchic as can get, and nations not being all that interdependent, I don't see what the incentive for these nations would be to cooperate, and I would say they certainly wouldn't do it on a scale as large as this. I think this organisation is overly idealistic when it comes to the specific circumstances of this timeline. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 20:03, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Mjdoch. Mitro 03:21, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me for saying this, but when are they going to make a descison? Its not like they are overflowing with candidates here. I see only one. The Camerlengo Oscar Sheid (or howevee you spell his name). Please pick him officially as Pope, and lets get on to other issues. Like the official recreation of the Vatican as a city-state. In a process that normally takes a week, this one is taking way too long. --Yankovic270 20:49, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the first Pope in 26 years. It's a huge decision.  Probably some of the cardinals would be overly cautious, and others would be backing a home candidate and prevent a consensus from emerging.  Scheid is the only cardinal we've really heard of, but he's certainly not the only one who has done heroic things to help the world since Doomsday.  Benkarnell 21:02, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Superior military articles
See: Republic of Superior Air Force (1983: Doomsday), Republic of Superior Army (1983: Doomsday) and Republic of Superior Navy (1983: Doomsday). There have been some objections regarding the size of the Superior military and the number of vehicles they command. Mitro 03:24, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Canon nation that is finally being fleshed out by Brian. Mitro 03:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 03:27, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. New Jersey, as always, got the worst of it, lying as it does in the middle of several major metropolitan areas.  It looks like Yank hasn't developed it, anyway.  But based on the infobox, it looks like it was part of the "ethnic Americans re-create Old World culture" craze, something that's been rejected overall.  Benkarnell 18:01, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It is because they are lead by a group of the American Mafia, many of which came from Italy. Sicily specifically. It isen't implausible that some of these mobsters have fond memories of home. --Yankovic270 18:18, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * If anybody survived in NJ, organized crime bosses would likely be the ones running things soon afterward. But they'd be the bosses of a hardscrabble shantytown, nothing like the rulers of a modern nation-state.  They'd probably use barter (or an economy of "you eat what we say you eat"), not some newfangled "lira" currency.  And like all simple societies, theirs would probably be fluid, mobile, and impermanent.  I could see the mafia guys running their shantytown for a few years after DD, but after that things would probably change as they ran out of bullets and their mechanical devices stopped working and people came and went from the area in search of a land that could yield more food.  Rembember, Yank - this is post-apocalyptic fiction. The whole point is that society collapses and we have to start over from a primitive state.  It's the same reason, by the way, that Virginia can't be the mechanized modern state that you've been trying to describe.  In the affected areas, people are only concerned with food and security, and they have to get both without relying on modern technology.  Benkarnell 18:52, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Brian. Mitro 03:28, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I'm relisting this because I not only added the history from 1992 to today, but I also changed the outcome. It was completely unrealistic for the country to stay disunited for so long. I tried to keep certain things: there's ongoing tension with Nicaragua, a separatist government in Limon, and a couple odd areas (like the Nicoya Peninsula) that remain outside the control of the government. But overall, the country is recovering after many long years of war and unrest. Vladivostok, I hope this can help you work out Nicaragua in more detail. I tried to maintain a strong socialist presence and have the USSR play an important regional role. Currently there's a right-of-center president after 8 years of Sandinista predominance. This is just owing to the swing of the political pendulum. Benkarnell 15:30, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Population table, in World Country profiles
i think add population numbers in the countries table is good, how many you are is a basic data, not in a exactly number but talk about millons, 33.000.000 or 2.000.000, is not the same, with that our world will be sow more realist, i think. List of countries by past and future population, wikipedia--Fero 20:11, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Timeline update
We have expanded the history of this world by a lot these last few months. New nations created by editors have given us a better understanding about what is happening in different parts of the globe. The problem is the itself omits a lot of important material from these articles. Now I am not saying we copy and paste the history sections of these articles into the TL, but I think that we do need to update the Timeline to better reflect the new histories that have been written. Mitro 15:58, November 25, 2009 (UTC)