Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page Location Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stability
Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in from 1700 onward. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points you lose. If your points drop below 500, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 300, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely.
 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 important metals, e.g. iron, copper .etc)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)
 * trade routes (50 for each major trade route - note a long border does not mean lots of trade)

Stability = Status Quo + Penalties to stability: Benifits to stability:
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population) (rounded)/Territory)*500 which is the nations status quo
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50 (border skirmish)
 * Major invasion= -100 (15% of territory lost or one major city captured)
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (as decided by mods)
 * -500*percent of territory lost in a war
 * War won in less than 5 years= +50
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every major trade route= +25 (mods decide your number)
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20
 * Stability greater than 1500 for the last 25 years= +150
 * Economic improvement= +25
 * Religious/moral revival= +30
 * Infrastructure= +25
 * War= +10
 * Military development/expansion= +20
 * 100*percent of territory won in a war

Stability of Player-States and Bonus Angorithm Points

 * All Metals+Soil Quality


 * Stability - Status Quo'

Stage 1

 * Heartland of Russia only.

Stage 2

 * None.

Stage 3

 * None.

Stage 4

 * None

Mamluk Crusade Planning
I decided we needed an official planning section for the Mamluk crusade. If we manage to overthrow the government, this is the current division of Mamluk territory:

Of course, we probably would be able to negoriate to give other people who join territory as well, or we could make a treaty/pay them off for their aid instead.

To everyone entering the war: I want this to be a long war. It is an enormous amount of territory to conquer, and it is a powerful empire. Unlike the Ottomans, who were cobbled together from numerous different ethnic groups that easily splintered away, the Mamluks are united by thier Arab descent. It will take a long time to overthrow such a nation, and longer still to subjugate the people. Furthermore, it has become sort of boring that all of the wars recently, even the 2 "Great Northern Wars" ended after two years. I am thinking that this should last like 10 years. It will be more fun that way. LurkerLordB 03:06, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

And worse; they are in civil disarray.it will be more difficult yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:38, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the Crusade may actually require a series of short wars to take all of the nation. LurkerLordB 13:29, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree, the war should last ten years. Anyway, I thought about it and I want a little more territory, specificlly, a few lands down to Qatar and Bahrain. When do we start the crusade? After the Great Northern War? Now? Anyway, I want to iniciate it (considering that Naples and Sweden/Denmark will be in a sort of post-bellum state). Also, I would like to divide my conquest lands in two vassal states: Egypt, ruled by the Patriarch of Alexandria (as vassal to the King of France and the Pope) and Arabia, ruled by a Caliph of Mecca and Medina. Is this possible? --Galaguerra1 19:59, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

In part, this will not be possible.Alexandria will go to Greek control, and it's of Greek interest that the Patriarch stays on Egyptian lands. {C {C And, if i get that amount of territory on Egypt, and not too many people enter, i will make a vassal state called Egypt.but Arabia can be made.oh, and you already don't have a vassal in Algeria?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:44, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think that perhaps we should actually not choose any land right now, until it is confirmed who is going to enter. If no one else does, you can ask if Scandinator would let you take that territory. I am making an algorithm to determine if we will win now... LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Crusaders (led by France)

 * Near the location of the War: 3
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France(L)/Algeria(MV)/Burgundy(M)/Naples(M)/Papal States(MV)/Jerusalem(MV)/Hungary(M)/Greece(MV)/Sweden(M)/Estonia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/ Scotland(MV)/Persia(M)/Yemen (M)/Spain(M): 39
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 8
 * Stability: 56
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * Editcount:205
 * 0x2x4x5 = 40
 * 205/40 x pi = 16100.6 6 23
 * Total=130

Mamluk Empire

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Mamluk Empire/Jysan/Fartak/Assyria: 12 (the crusade is against the "Rome" of Islam, all Muslim states nearby will try to help)
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Total= 46*1.5=69

Result
Crushing Crusader Victory. The Crusaders are entitled to ((136/(136+69))*2)-1=32.68% of Mamluk territory, a vast amount, but not enough to win the war,

Discussion
I assumed tha *1.5 for civil disarray was to the final result. LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Jaeden CC (Burgundy) just confirmed me that he will be on our side (and he wants no territory gains). May be the user of Persia wants to participate. --Galaguerra1 01:40, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

If Persia joined it, it would be easy just to extend their territory that will border the Mamluks after they conquer Shahrzur just down some. LurkerLordB 17:22, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

You know what, I think I should join the war on the Crusaders' side. What do I have to conquer?

RandomWriterGuy 22:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

You could probably just extend your territory from Shahrzur down some ways. LurkerLordB 01:12, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

What territory of the Mamuluk Empire can i have?

RandomWriterGuy 22:34, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

What he said.But, bad news here, we will have to wage two wars, because in the best of cases, with Persia helping and Yemen out of Mamluk's side, we stlll would get only roughly 25% of territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:12, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I calculated it to be 32.68, just barely not enough to win the war. Although if one more person would help... LurkerLordB 19:59, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not on the Mamuluk's side. Besides, I also want to conquer it. Can you leave the Shia areas of the Mamuluk Empire and its holdings in the Arab Peninsula for me to conquer. I promise to support you in the crusades.

RandomWriterGuy 02:51, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest we take all of Egypt and Libya (if that is 32%) over the next 4 years and if there is extra then Persia and Naples get their share and France as well up to the 32%. After a break of 3 years recontinue the war and win!!!! :PScandinator 11:19, November 8, 2011 (UTC).

I think that this accounts for 40%, or something.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:58, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

O.K., remember what I said: all Shia areas and the Arab Peninsula portion are mine. RandomWriterGuy 14:56, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

No, you can't get the whole of the Arab Peninsula, that would be way to big. There really aren't any Shi'a areas, on account of this being OTL Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I say just extend your border downwards a bit. How about this: LurkerLordB 01:31, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I have a new proposition: The proposition of LLB, but a few lands of mine territory to Yemen, my own land increase to Qatar (I hope you have no problem with that, Scandinator) and divided in the two vassal states I mention before. What other countries can we call to help us? When will the war end? I'm thinking in 1720... --Galaguerra1 03:13, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

1720 seems good, 10 years of war should be enough. It might take longer to subjugate the Mamluk people, but with Vassal states resistance will be a lot lower. If Scandinator is willing to lose that much land, the new thing is fine. If he isn't, then I don't know what you could do, except maybe give him all the Sinai, and extend his portion of Arabia south, so France is like a U-shape covering Qatar. But if he is fine with less, then we don't have to do that. If other people join though, I don't know. Do the Mamluks have any colonies left? LurkerLordB 03:25, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. there is one near Tsalagi, other in Florida and other on OTL Delaware.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:42, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of Rome
I commented in boldLxCaucassus 11:13, November 4, 2011 (UTC) {C
 * 1) Russia and her supporters will acknowledge defeat. fine, OK
 * 2) Livonia and the Estonian Islands will be handed over to the Baltic Alliance See comment below
 * 3) Lithuania will be split with the smaller Northern section becoming North Lithuania - a puppet state of Sweden see comment below
 * 4) Sweden's remaining annexable territory quota will be taken from the Finnish border.
 * 5) Russia, Lithuania, Armenia, Persia, AGC, Greece, Kazakhstan and China will not attack Sweden and her dominions, France, Algeria, Yemen and Vietnam. Fine but you know there will be wars between Russia and Sweden. lots happened in history. I'll try to mimic those a bit like in 1809 when Alexander took finland to protect petersburg. for the rest of the lifetime of Peter I, II, Catherine I, Elizabeth I will not incite war
 * 6) Russia must pay 1.5 million kronars to Sweden and her allies and send men to rebuild the damage to Swedish infrastructure. how bout 5-10 million(rubles) and I get to keep livonia
 * 7) Persia will return the Swedish India colony. Sorry but I did not realize the war was over until right now. Please, I want to cancel the Persian invsaion of India. RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * 8) Russian and Lithuanian military bases and manpower in Kola, St Petersburg, Lithuania and within 100 km of the Baltic alliance will not excceed those in Finland, Baltic Alliance and North Lithuania. uh... I need the baltc ports to survive!
 * 9) Sweden is allowed to keep the strange contraptions found in St Petersburg (steam engines)...Sure...but there werent any...it was only in archange, St petersburg wasnt built enough to have those yet. and I dont think you would need to ask to keep them...you can say strange contraptions found near St Petersburg being transported to Archangel... itll take you some time to learn to use them though.

Again, a list of demands, without even an attempt at negotiations. I suggest you change your tune, Scan - you have been warned, remember? Lordganon 11:29, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator, it's too late, you aren't going to gain anything, and you both are losing Finnland. The deadline was two days ago, you failed to meet it, therefore, Finnish independence. + what Lordganon said. LurkerLordB 20:23, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the new map that DK added, with Finland becoming independent. I think we should probaby make a short rule stating that neither Russia nor Sweden can take Finland as vassal for full-on territory for the next 50 years or so, because it wouldn't be much of a punishment if Sweden could immediately declare Finland a vassal 1 year later. LurkerLordB 21:18, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I also recognize Russian defeat.

RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Lx, I don't care if you and Scan keep debating this and looking for a solution but you have lost the right to do so on this talk page. When you agree on something on your own talk pages, I'll gladly change the map and remove Finland. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:24, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Since Finland is already independent, then it seems to be too late to give it back to them. The deadline was three days ago, so Finland should be independent already. LurkerLordB 22:50, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

wait, the bold was me discussing his terms, I believe that he posted that, I responded proposing something else and then I want to wait for him to approve or suggest something else, we are doing diplomacy now... please wait untill scan responds to the bold before banning us from discussing this from this page.LxCaucassus 23:14, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Too late, Lx. A ruling has been made by Kenny, and I will back him in enforcing it.

Take it to your talk pages. And keep it civil - the walls have ears.

Lordganon 23:46, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I won't delete Finland but I may give you a chance to reclaim territory. Any further discussion on the topic henceforth will be dropped. Further argument will see immediate blocking. It is about time this page got archived, it is way past 100,000 bytes. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:45, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yemen
I would like to ask, what painting programs do people use for drawing such beautiful maps? For example, I use Paint.NET for that. Doctor261 11:57, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I Have to answer, as mapmaker.in my case, nothing special.just MS Paint.however, these that i make are all variations of the first map, drawn by Detectivekenny.but isn't difficult.just download the map and edit it on Paint.every map must be saved as .png on the file's template.However, if you are going to edit the maps, i think that you should simply leave it to me.the last time that this happened, the maps became too much confusing, since both mapmakers were posting different maps each time.if i miss something, tell me.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I use Paint.NET as well. Per Kenny's suggestion, I am archiving everything except this treaty, the Crusade, and the labelled map, as everything else is either from past stuff or can be found on the RUles page (no reason to have algorithm, stability, and industrialization in 2 places) LurkerLordB 14:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, check the link below my post. This is how Yemen borders looked in 1700. Did something happen in another way alt-historically in this map-game before? 

Doctor261 14:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

That is not the way the borders looked, that map is a map from modern times with the European empires (the colors) imposed on top of it. None of the nations on that map had borders like that during that time period, except for the ones in colors. LurkerLordB 15:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

The borders were probably very loose then. Yemen probably controlled a few cities, towns, and villages, and the nomads wouldn't be under any jurisdiction. Much of Yemen is the Rub-al-Khali, as you probably know. But LurkerLordB is right, the map is just colors superimposed on present-day borders. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Also I use Pixelmator, which costs money but has served really well as a cheaper alternative to Photoshop for Macs. I occasionally use Inscape which is free for vector imagery (smooths out lines a bit and is good for some maps but its's really complicated). Some people I know are happy with the Gimp which is another free software similar to Pixelmator. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:17, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator's Misuse of Moderator powers -Situation Clarified, NVM
Recently, Scandinator has been misusing his powers as "disaster moderator" to his advantage. He made up a famine in Germany these past couple turns, despite the fact that no real famine happened there in history during that time. Now, this is alternate history, so there could be famines that didn't happen in real life, so that is not the real problem. The real problem is that he recently stated that the famines are making Prussians wish to rejoin Sweden. I say it is abuse of moderator powers to cause disasters that only occur in one nation that have no historical basis in an attempt to seize land from that nation. Mod-created Disasters should either be historical, be region/continent wide, or be used to punish players. Scandinator's recent actions are not historical, and are focussed on one nation that violated no rules. This makes it obvious that this is nothing more than a build up to a Sweden/German war in an attempt to seize back territories taken from them fairly in a war.

This is an addition to the controversy involving the stability which Scandinator has been handling, which resulted in the administration of this wiki becoming involved and nearly banning him. It seems as if Scandinator is incapable of using his moderator powers in a fair and unbiased manner, and therefore I feel it is sadly necessary for him to be removed from his position. LurkerLordB 15:36, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree. There was in fact a famine in East Prussia from 1708 - 1711, which killed 41% of the population (250,000 people). It is also true that the AGC did very little about it, even if they were inactive. He probably shouldn't have mentioned his own country, but there's nothing really wrong here. After all, he's put a lot of work into discovering every natural disaster, something which I just could never do no matter how much I tried.

An argument takes two people. He obviously put a lot of time and effort into the stability system, which was based on something I concocted and makes sense, as well as being accurate. So what about one argument? Everyone gets in arguments. He is still relatively new to the game and has been getting better all along. In this case he just needs a slap to the side of the face to not mention his own country. Same thing happened in India a little while ago, and Hanthawaddy could have invaded, but he didn't mention Hanthawaddy at all, which is OK. But he shouldn't mention Sweden at all. In a journalistic article, the writer can't mention himself at all, no matter how relevant his name is to the story. Same principle applied here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's been hard to find that many sources for the famine, but eventually I managed to find it. It still seems sort of like a land grab, that the famine happens and then Sweden posts that the people of Prussia are considering joining Sweden again, it just seemed unfair to Anglo-Germany to use a moderator action as an attempt to gain land. However, now that I found that the famine was real, I apoligize for exagerrating it beyond its true size. LurkerLordB 23:38, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yet More Issues with the Map
I haves some more issues with the map. It's not about my territory for once, but about the absence of a player nation. Finland had gained a user controlling it, but as of yet is not on the map. Are we adding it after the borders are hashed out, or is this a mistake? By they way I do believe the second option is the better one.

Yank 08:09, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Finland should be red, we don't have any reds. And Sweden should stop trying to retake them and accept that they lost it as punishment. LurkerLordB 12:42, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I will define the color.as for Finland's absence i did not added it because in part, i want to make sure that Finland's creation won't be reverted.and in part because i forgot to even download the proposal map to copy the area and paste it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Finland already has a player, its too late to revert it at this point. LurkerLordB 19:49, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Here's another issue: I conquered several Indian kingdoms. Will this be put on the new map?

RandomWriterGuy 02:59, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Collie, hate to put you on the spot, but really everything should go on the map, unless someone disputes it. You can't really ignore posts. I'm not singling out a specific incident, just in general. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:16, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

And i'm trying to know if conquering the Rajputs so fast is actually plausible.since Multan and Sindh are small kingdoms, this would be easy, but the Rajputs?compared to other Indian kingdoms, they are medium-sized, so i think that this would deserve a algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:36, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'll make one. Also Sweden managed to annex Livonia minus Riga and around 100px of Lithuania as well as the Estonian Islands.Scandinator 06:50, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

As has been stated elsewhere, Not one bit of that was agreed to by anyone. You stating something does not make it true.

I'm feeling lenient today, so you're just going to get this warning: You were told by myself and Kenny to cut that out. I suggest you listen for once.

Lordganon 07:40, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Me and Lx already agreed to that.Scandinator 08:24, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Not only was there no agreement there at all, but the entire process was rendered moot by the Finland solution.

So, no. That is not something you two agreed to. A simple reading of it all shows otherwise.

One more word about that and you'll get a vacation. I am sick and tired of it.

Lordganon 08:45, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Actualy, we did agree on that, I got to keep what I wanted: the coastline and he got to be happy and annex part of Livonia. Although I never agreed to the islands... oh well, I gues they could turn out to be a natural border dispute between the 2 nations, like the kurils with Russia and Japan, but are so insignificant that tey wont start a war. Lithuania part was kind of in exchange for the Pup of land that Estonia has that is part of OTL Russia.-Lx (leave me a message) 12:06, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

All of the sundown kingdoms were affected by the famine. in fact,Scandinator told me about this and what to do. If you have complaintments, send them to Scandinator, not me. RandomWriterGuy 14:54, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Even then, a algorythm is needed, because is impossible that even affected by famine, the Rajputs wouldn't put up any resistance and given the size of the kingdom, it would take two or three years to conquer.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:47, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Not unless you're China. Tell you what, Persia: If you want to, I'll split the Rajputs with you and you can have it now. I just need some territory touching the Mughals. CrimsonAssassin 16:02, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

This is true.Persia only updated their military on four years out of fiteen.that's a reason in why Persia wouldn't get much if a algorythm was made.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:04, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Actually Lx, you responded to his demands by offering him part of Livonia - but he never responded to you. Nothing was agreed on. He's still going off saying that his demands, which you did not agree to, happened in their entirety. Reminds me, that I have to go on this blasted thing and edit that.

Lordganon 17:21, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I have removed/edited the lines. Kenny specifically said what the result was, and you two haven't decided anything since then. So, a draw with the loss of Finland. Lordganon 17:35, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

The Indian kingdoms I conquered were small. This should have gave me easy victories.

RandomWriterGuy 23:02, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

This gave you easy victories, until you combat the Rajputs.as i said, they are medium-sized (almost, if not, the size of Poland).but, you should dedicate more time to upgrade your military.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:02, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

China
Next to the Location of the War: 4 Updating military: 4 Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Rajput

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population (10,000 to 100,000): 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Chinese Victory. China is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Rajput territory. The Rajput empire collapses.

Hypothetical Vietnamese-Korean (Joseon) War
This a section on a potential future war I'm planning with Joseon. With Pitakang pretty much gone for good, I realized that Vietnam may be looking apon Joseon's many territories covetingly. This section is for the algorithm so that I can see what the results would be for such a war. Keep in mind I allways use 15 years to build up my military, sans colonization.

Yank 19:52, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, just leave their motherland. Pita might be back during Christmas break. Oh and I'll take Taiwan. CrimsonAssassin 21:52, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

He still looks around, just saying… But do what you want. Keep any test algorithms off the page. You can do them by yourself or in your sandbox. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:51, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Pita! CrimsonAssassin 02:52, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

All I really want are the colonies. I'll let him have his homeland if (or when) he returns. But not really for Vietnam's sake. I'd give Kamchatka and Korean Japan to Nippon, and the Phillipine colony to New Lithuania. And it's no longer hypothetical. I'm going to start my traditional preperations in 1715. Yank 04:08, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take his Colombian colony :P Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:15, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

The war is definitely no longer hypothetical. I have set the ball rolling, and will attack Joseon in 15 turns. Can I count on Hanthawaddy and China's support in this war?

Yank 03:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

St Petersburg Convention
this conferance is hosted by Peter I of Russia himself to discuss colonial claims to America amongst all european states. this conference will only encompas continental North America

North America
The Commonwealth controls Wolkenland (OTL Eureka, CA) and I was hoping to encompass roughly the OTL State of California. That is all I was considering ruling in North America, however.Zagoria 04:16, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Since the Commonwealth, Hungary and Russia have colonies on southern Africa, we should divide it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:30, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Greece wants to make a clear division between the Russian colony soth of Neos Prezeza and Neos Preveza.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:30, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

How about this? -Lx (leave me a message) 12:13, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Can't you change a bit of this? was proved that is almost impossible reach the great lakes with Labrador, so i was thinking if you could give Neos Preveza a outlet to the Great lakes.but for this to work, you would have to cede that peninsula where is the area of Toronto.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:59, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

well, I gave you a first map didnt I, take it and edit it to let me know what you want! change this map a little, thats wat its there for is it not? When we reach a decision on the map then only wioll we attempt to put it in treaty form to make an article about it.-Lx (leave me a message) 17:35, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

France has sent the Archbishop of Avignon, Jean Bertrand, as ambassador. France is agree with the proposed division. The cardinal asks the representatives to consider Florida. The potential colonists in that peninsula can be Itsyaghi, Naples or France itself. --Galaguerra1 18:19, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone's made some drastic jumps here. Can I have some Great Plains territoy? CrimsonAssassin 19:29, November 9, 2011 (UTC)



Well, i'm willing to give my chunk of territory on the Great Plains.it's actually impossible reach the Great lakes from there, given the current rate of expansion.so, there's my proposal.along with a outlet to the Great Lakes, Greece/Hungary would gain parts of OTL Michigan and the peninsula where it is Toronto, and other cities, in trade for it's territory inland of the Great Plains, which will be divided between China, Sweden and Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:10, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I am completely satisfied with the new proposal. CrimsonAssassin 20:57, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I like this but with one condition: can Russia please have the horseshoe Niagra falls???? I like them better that the American falls...XD(Im Canadian-Russian)-Lx (leave me a message) 22:44, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I am satisfied with North America, but since Hungary (I think) will get a large chunk of North America, and has colonies in Brazil, can the AGC have the a large part of Brazil (that was going to be my principal colony). I would upload a map but I do not have any software for it.Zagoria 00:20, November 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * all you need is paint or photoshop... but i'll do something for you-Lx (leave me a message)

Naples' only claim in the North-American are is the island of Cuba, so they won't dispute this at all. Perhaps sending a message to Itsagahi would be a good idea? They have claimed the rest of Florida a couple times in-game, I know that. LurkerLordB 00:58, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam's claim is to the region known in OTL as New England. Which means I want all (or most) of the OTL states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Massachusetts. Plus the healthy portion of New Brunswick on the map.

Yank 04:08, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

China and Itsaygahi have by far the strongest claims to the continent, but Russia and Sweden hold vast swathes of territory in this scenario. Itsaygahi wants access to the Great Lakes at very least. Mumby 19:19, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

True, Itsaygahi does have the largest amount of territory in North America other than China, so they should bet some expansion. I'll make a proposal. LurkerLordB 20:55, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

the thing I dont like about this is the fact that Russia's colonies are seperated by Itsahagi, I would like them to be one contigious thing...somehow...excluding of course Russian America.that can stay there. I would like the south part of RUssia's eastern claim(gulf of mexico touching) and Novorossiya/canada to be one mass. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:37, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Technically, they can go through the Great lakes on boats to be reconnected. You must understand Itsagahi has a much stronger claim to the continent than you do. Perhaps you could get MIchigan back, as he just wanted to go up to the Great Lakes? Would Michigan give you enough of a connection? LurkerLordB 16:52, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

How about this new picture? By the way, do not copy and paste these maps to the main one! Some one did the stupid antializing thing (probably because it was the default of their program) so now it will mess up the borders if you do that. LurkerLordB 17:18, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

South America
well, since we are discussing America, why not do south america too!(this is mostly here since Zagoria asked)-Lx (leave me a message) 02:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

If we will discuss South America too, I want Tierra del Fuego and the Falklands. --Galaguerra1 02:50, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

take it by all means but post a map so we can see...I put it on the map so ya if there are no objections this pretty much does it...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:56, November 10, 2011 (UTC)



I feel like it's a little bit too early so Hanthawaddy isn't going to ratify the treaty. There's nothing wrong with the treaty, just keep in mind further developments might interfere, and I would watch the South American kingdoms ;). Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

There's a lot less south American colonization than the north American one, I agree with Kenny, we shouldn't use the South American one yet. LurkerLordB 02:28, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * looks greedily at the Incan Empire* CrimsonAssassin 00:10, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am fine with this map.Zagoria 01:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Indian Wars
Fine. I will make the algorithms that you asked for. Now will my conquests be recognized? Now are you happy?

Sindh-Persian War
Next to the Location of the War: 4

Updating military: 4

Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Sindh

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Sindh territory. The Sindh empire collapses.

Multan-Persian War
Persia

Next to the Location of the War: 4 Updating military: 4 Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Multan

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population (10,000 to 100,000): 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Multan territory. The Multan empire collapses.

Gujrat-Persian War

Persia

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 5
 * Expansion: 5
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 10 (Random)
 * Total= 55

Gujrat

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Total= 38

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (55/(55+38)*2)-1= 100% of Gujrat territory. The Gujrat empire collapses.

Persia

 * At the Location of the War:4
 * Strength:3
 * Expansion:5
 * Military Expansion:5
 * Population:4
 * Motive:10
 * Participation:5
 * Chance:5
 * Total=41

Malwa

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 2
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Total=35

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (41/(41+35)*2)-1= 100% of Malwa territory. The Malwa empire collapses.

Note: I actually had to do some copying from the Chinese-Rajput war. If this is illegal, tell me.

What the heck? Persia has a stability score of 29, not 74. You wouldn't use the same chance as China, due to the fact that you declared war at a different time, therefore getting a different chance. There is no way that Persia has 10 digits of population either. Also, you need to declare war on each one seperately, you can't attack them all at once. If you did, then you would probably have to divided your algorithm by however many wars there were. You better edit these ridiculous algorithms to make them follow the rules. LurkerLordB 00:19, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

LurkerLordB be nice, it's his first time :/. But yeah, there's quite a bit wrong with the algorithm. The fact that you attacked all the states at one would fall under implausibility. Population and time ruled have been phased out. And you didn't include the stability for the opponents, which is controlled by the stability curve. Leave it a little while and I'll edit it. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:31, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

While I am grateful that you used my template, please do not do that again. You do not have the same figures as I do. CrimsonAssassin 00:37, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I am very sorry. Also, each war took at different times. Can you also teach me on how to make one? I did read the rules on it, but I am confused.

RandomWriterGuy 19:21, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'm Done
I'm done. I am just confused about everything. I had made my move recently that got deleted. I made my war alogrythms but they were too implausible and got many people angry. I felt that this is enough for me. I am no longer playing Principia Moderni. I am just going to go somewhere else that is more suitible for me.

RandomWriterGuy 04:26, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * China, Anglo-Germany, Hanthawaddy: 9
 * Far from the Location of the War: 2
 * Updating military: 5
 * Stability: 74
 * Participation: 10
 * Political: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * (1708/3)*pi=1788.6 1 3417443788815


 * Total: 106

Mughal Empire

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Mughal Empire: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0.5992*8 ~ 5 pts
 * Population (10,000,000 to 99,999,999): 8
 * Stability curve (1713 - 1526 = 187 yr): 0.5992


 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 3 (Random)
 * Total: 36

Result
2 [ 106 / (106 + 33) ] - 1 = 52.518%

China has fully defeated the Mughal Empire and thus has rights to control and decide on the fate of the territories that comprise the Mughal Empire.

Discussion
I'll give Hanthawaddy the Eastern part (anything east of the eastern former Rajput border) since I know they were fighting the Mughals too. CrimsonAssassin 22:58, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't Anglo-Germany join in the War too? LurkerLordB 23:19, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Please I beg use the stability curve. And the population is 10,000,000-100,000,000. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:53, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

The above calculation is done correctly, using the stability curve. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:10, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I was also fighting, yes. Zagoria 01:39, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

How you will divide the territory?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:09, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

LxCaucassus
Lx has recently posted an addition to his 1714 post that effectively forces Finland to become a Russian vassal state against it's will. Are we going to do anything to address that?

Yank 16:54, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you have a look at his talk page, and that of the Finland Player as well. It's very willing. I undid your "undo."

Lordganon 17:46, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Persia and CrimsonAssassin
I have given up control of Persia to CrimsonAssassin of China. Because I have resigned, I demand this be recognized.

RandomWriterGuy 17:55, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

While I can't say no, this is as difficult as it can get. China has no major overland routes to Persia (if they did they would be very difficult), and no cultural ties. This would make Persia almost impossible to control. For now the bestthan can be expected is vassalization, and full annexation can be completed later. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly.think that China would annex Persia withiut resistance is impossible.the most probable option would be vassalization, but China already has two vassals. only if they either annexed Tibet or made Persia into a puppet state.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:02, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I am honored. I have been planning to annex Tibet and Manchuria at some point, though I have gotten messaged regarding my rapid expansion within the last few years. For details, read the message I left on DK's talk page. At any rate, I've been expanding pretty quickly lately and when the current Emperor croaks, I'm slowing down. Regarding vassalization, I could make Persia a vassal, though I feel that I'd need to ask other people if they think I should do this. CrimsonAssassin 03:44, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think is very good that you receive the persian territory, I also think you should join us in the crusade, then we win...NOT. Really, Had Persia any reason in game to give you the control of the nation? --Galaguerra1 04:16, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

It's sort of random for a nation just to declare themselves a vassal of another one, especially if the nations possess no cultural ties. I say Persia shouldn't be vassalized, and the Indian states conquered by Persia should re-gain their independence. LurkerLordB 14:02, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I'd say make Persia an NPC nation at this point. China's getting too big too fast. CrimsonAssassin 15:36, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Halfway Point
Congratulations to all players. By 1716, we will have completed 297 turns, which means we have reached the midway point in the game. In 1720 (which will also be the 300-turn anniversary), if anyone wants to change their color on the map, let me know. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:08, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Huzzah! Will expansion levels increase now? Maybe they should br doubled. LurkerLordB 22:28, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

That will come exclusively with industrialization. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations, everybody! I'd like to say that this is my favorite map game of all time. CrimsonAssassin 03:52, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I must say, this Map Game made me feel welcome in this wiki, and I hope to enjoy the uncoming 297 turn (well... we will play 2012 as last turn! The supporters of the theory of the end of the days in that year will be happy). Congratulations to the old and new players! --Galaguerra1 03:55, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Marinid-Vietnamese War (1697)
i just realized that i forgot posting this one.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:52, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Marinids
Total = 30
 * At the location of war:5
 * Marinid:3
 * Expansion:0
 * Military expansion:0
 * Motive (Life Or Death:10
 * Participating On War:10
 * Chance:7 (Random)
 * Ruled area for 151+ years:-5

Vietnam
Total = 30
 * Other side of the world:1
 * Vietnam:3
 * Motive (Political):5
 * Expansion:0
 * Military expansion:6
 * Chance:5 (4109/4 = 3227.2010 5
 * Editcount;4109
 * Time:2x2x0x0 = 4
 * Participating On War:10
 * Ruled area for 0 years:0

Result
30/60 = 0.5 - 0,5 = 0 Draw. territory returns to status quo ante bellum.

Discussion
Stability is not counted because the war was in 1697, when stability wasn't estabilished yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:19, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Return
The reason I had resigned because my conquests were not recognized and my alogythms were not plausible. During my temporary resignation, I thought of what I had done and I thought I should re-join the game. I did see that my conquests were finally recognized in the map, so I thought I should rejoin the game. Also, I really do want to apoligize for the implausbiel alogythms I made. I promise to be more plausible.

RandomWriterGuy 19:17, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back... LurkerLordB 20:18, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back! But if I were you I would seriously slow down the invasions. The Indian States aren't going anywhere, and if you continue too many invasions, you will end up with a mod disaster or rebellion that will cause you to ragequit… Be careful. There is more to this game than expansion, and there is also power and economic prosperity that will help you in the long run. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:58, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back. I am rather relieved that you chose to come back; I was put in a sort of difficult situation regarding making you a vassal. CrimsonAssassin 03:42, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Swedish Nobility

 * Close to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden(L)/Estonia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/Scotland(M): 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: ?
 * Stability: 79
 * Motive (Political): 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: ?
 * Editcount:?
 * ? x pi = ?
 * Total=?
 * Total=?

Finland

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Finland(L)/Swedish Loyalists(M)/Hungary (S)/Naples(M)/Papal States(MV)/France(M): 17
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: ?
 * Stability: 6(or 64)
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: ?
 * Editcount:?
 * ? x pi = ?
 * Total=?
 * Total=?

Result
????

Discussion
Scandinator, you will need to update Finland's stability first, as you forgot their trade routes with Naples & via the northwest passage in the calculations. Also, Sweden's stability should be lowered on account of having a civil conflict, if it hasn't been already. LurkerLordB 01:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

@LurkerLorkB. Finland has no MAJOR trade routes via the Northeast Passage or one to Naples. If you consider it a nation of less than a million people could not possibly have much to offer...Scandinator 01:41, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I stated in-game that Naples asked to make a trade route with Finland, and they agreed. A trade route was established, you can stop trying to retcon in-game events. Also, they have the northeast passage, as Russia stated. Also, how is the Anglo-german route closed? The Anglo-Germans have ports on the Baltic, you cannot claim to have closed the Danish straights on them. You need to stop trying to restrict trade with Finland, its obvious that you are doing it solely to lower their stability score so that you can retake them in one war and get around your punishment LurkerLordB 02:23, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Actualy, doing a war with FInland, since their confederation with Russia resulted in war with russia whn you invade finland, so...think about hat for a sec...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I still think Scandinator is abusing his moderator powers yet. He just says "oh, no one would want to trade with Finland) and takes away all of the northeast passage trade routes, then he uses his "stability master" powers to attempt to shut down the Neapolitan and AGC trade routes with them as well! LurkerLordB 04:50, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Scan, you are abusing your powers. Not only that, but those trade routes have been declared. Try that again and you will have time to think about it. I am sick of your behavior. Lordganon 07:35, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Like Kenny said. Finland to Naples trade goes via AGC. There is no direct route so therefore no trade route.Scandinator 11:27, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary supports Finland, only giving supplies.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Is Everyone forgetting that Russia and FInland are now ina Confederation? One military, one power, two flags. it is in my understanding that FInland would get the Russian Stability number becuse Russia is kind of close and Russia has much more troops going to the borders to reinforce them.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

No, he did not say that.

It is painfully obvious that such a route is possible, by simply looking at that list.

Lx, both are still played by separate players. Thus, two numbers.

Lordganon 15:25, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't the stability score of Sweden be much lower, as they are currently in a civil war? Perhaps divided in two, to show that they are only part of Sweden, not the whole thing? LurkerLordB 16:49, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Mapmaking
@Collie, you're a talented and dedicated mapmaker but what I don't get is how you cannot understand that you need to check the map to see if anyone uploaded over it. This is at least the 5th time I had to tell you. I just redid the entire map for 1715 because I had smoothed out the coastlines a bit in 1710………… Do you not understand this? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:47, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot to check, like the last times.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:33, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: can you explain me why the map had 82 colors last time and now there are 379?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:05, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Either it was resized in the wrong way, or someone drew/filled in a spot with antializing enabled, which creates lots of different shades blending colors together at the borders. LurkerLordB 16:44, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

The Map Changelog

 * I've added Yemen expansion to the north-west to the map. Doctor261 11:32, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * please, don't disrupt the map format like that, I was already adding it to the 1720 map. and, please, take note that expansion on grey areas is half of certain number, so 20 px will be counted as 10 px in fact.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * You should probably leave map-making on the main map up to Collie & Kenny. You can make your own map to show what you want, but don't edit the main map.  Last time someone did that, it caused great confusion. LurkerLordB 16:45, November 13, 2011 (UTC)