Talk:New Union

Flag contest: "union banners"
Greetings everybody. I am proud to announce the start of a new contest for the New Union timeline. I believe this is the first contest for the timeline, and I am quite exited. First off, a back story.

A while ago, I had an idea for the union republics. As someone with OCD, I think you can all understand why I am a huge fan of the SSR flags. Synchronized, standardized, uniformity. I am all for the republics wishing to move towards developing their own identities, but I found it rather sad that these flags would simply be thrown away into history. Than an idea struck. At least for Russia and the Ukraine in the waning days of the USSR, both republics would officially adopt two flags. As well as using their SSR flags, they also adopted national flags. Obviously, this would not last, and the national flags would rise as the sole flags. But for this timeline, why not have this "cooperation" continue.

I introduce the "union banners" (a working name). As you may have guessed, they are just the SSR flags (but without the red star). They are considered a secondary flag of their republic. Despite being a secondary flag, their modern use is very limited. The only way I can give an example would be... Imagine Canada. Originally, their national flag was a red ensign with the confederate shield. Today, it is the maple leaf flag. Just imagine Canada having two flags used officially. The red ensign would continue to be used as Canada's representation within the Commonwealth, while the Maple flag would be used for its sovereignty and everything else. I know it sounds confusing, so to simplify it more, these "union banners" are used primary for ceremonial purposes, and represent the republic within the USSR as a whole (while their national flag represents the republic as a sovereign entity).

Here is a list of "union banners" that are pretty much a given, plus several that I have designed. Excluding the nine ones already used prior and Karelia, I have designed ones for Chuvashia, Tatarstan, Udmurtia, and Yakutia (which are primarily based on proposed flags for those republics).

I have restrained myself from thinking of any further designs, because I would love to make designing a "union banner" for each republic as a contest.

Rules

 * The flags must have a standardized ratio of 1:2 (preferably 1200x600 px)


 * The color scheme is to be standardized by these colors:
 * {{legend|#cc0000|Red}}
 * {{legend|#007fff|Light blue}}
 * {{legend|#003399|Dark blue}}
 * {{legend|#009900|Green}}
 * {{legend|#ffd700|Gold}}
 * {{legend|#ffffff| White }}
 * New colors can be added, but any new color must be a direct color and not a variant of any other color or any color already mentioned. The color red is mandatory for all flag proposals. Thought it is not mandatory, it would be appreciated that red be the primary color for the flag (unless justifiable to choose another color). Please make note of any color change of this manner, and explain the reasoning in the Comments section below.


 * The flag must have a hammer and sickle in the upper-left hand corner of the flag, and must have a similar ratio to that of the other flags. It is not required to be gold in color, but it would be appreciated if any color change can be justified (as in the case of Georgia). Please make note of any color change of this manner, and explain the reasoning in the Comments section below.


 * You are allowed to make as many entries as you wish, but please limit it to one republic per user.


 * All entries must be titled as the following "File:REPUBLIC-USERNAME.SVG" (an example would be ""). I will personally change the file names of the selected designs upon the end of the contest.


 * It is greatly appreciated that the flag be in the vector format (SVG). But because many don't know how to do this, this is not a requirement and may be submitted in any format that Wikia will allow (PNG, JPG, GIF). I will personally convert the selected designs upon the end of the contest.


 * The following republics are off limits: Artsakh, Azerbaijan, Belorussia, Chuvashia, Karelia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Pridnestrovie, Russia, Tajikistan, Tatarstan, Turkmenistan, Udmurtia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, and Yakutia. The following are off limits because there is already a design for them (as you can see in the boxes above). No proposals will be accepted for this republics.

Criteria
I will be judging the entries on the following criteria:


 * 1) Originality and Uniformity (the uniqueness of the flag, yet uniformed with the other flags)
 * 2) Patriotism (the flags ability to express the republic and union in a balanced manner)

Conclusion
The winning designs will have the privileged to be used in the timeline. The designs which are not used will be put into storage, allowing them to be used later on, or in other timelines for this website. All designers will be given a big thanks, and the appreciation form all.

This contest will officially end on October 1, 2011.

Entries
You may add all entries in the box below. It is appreciated that you add the name of the republic, as well as your signature.

Comments
I hope you all like the idea, and I am very eager to see how this contest will turn out. In all, have fun. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:54, September 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am letting everybody know that I have updated the rules. Several of the entries seem to be conflicting, so I made it easier to understand. Please look at them before adding any new ones. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:02, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, does this mean Pridnestrovie will get a non-union banner flag? ChrisL123 19:35, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Primary USSR flag change proposal: I recently designed a new flag for the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics that is in the flag proposal gallery just above these comments. The red portion of the flag and the hammer & sickle obviously have the same meaning. I added two blue strips, one at the bottom and the other at the top. There is a total of ten starts, 5 on top and 5 on bottom, representing the original ten Republics in the New Union Constitution. Experiment632 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why yes it will. I have a design in my head that I think will look good. Just need to design in XD Thank you for reminding me. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:45, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

you can add comments to flag designs in this section

In the works
Hello everybody. I have been wanting to write this for a while now, but life and all. Anyway, there are a lot of changes to the timeline going to be taking place real soon. Adding new ideas, finishing up old projects, and more. Here are the two current projects that I am working on at the present.


 * Greater Karelia: After talking about it with Fedelede, will be getting a makeover. The biggest change will be that the republic will be admitted much earlier than previously stated, and will regain the Karelian Isthmus though compromise. I am also happy to announce that Fedelede may come onto the timeline as the Karelian expert and caretaker.




 * Iraq: It has already become canon, just not written out. I have been finalizing some things for Iraq, but I am happy to announce that it is looking great. For a reminder, the POD would involve the proposed coup against Hussein in 1995-ish would be taken seriously by the CIA (rather than OTL). The coup would be successful, and Hussein will be dead. A transition government takes place in Baghdad, and peace talks between the Kurdish separatists take place. By the end of the millennium, it would be agreed to reestablish Iraq as a federation of three republics. One Kurdish state, one Arab Sunni state, and one Arab Shia state (not to mention Baghdad becoming a federal district). My main focus was to finalize the borders, and I have even been looking into the naming issue. Here is a detailed idea for the three republics.
 * Kurdistan: Pretty much self explanatory. As part of compromise, it will be bordered to virtually govern the Kurdish-majority governorates and portions of another.
 * Babylonia: This would be the Shia-dominated state in southern Iraq. I think calling it anything except "Shiastan" is better. I chose "Babylonia" as a potential name. The name is a historic name for the region in the bible, and would be in sync with the other nations which also named themselves after biblical places (Syria and Israel).
 * Assyria: This would be the Sunni-dominated state in central Iraq. Just like Babylonia, Assyria is the biblical name for the region.

If anybody has any better names for these two republics, I would love to hear them. I will update this section with several of my new ideas later on. TTFN --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:36, September 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I did feel like calling Babylonia Basra (named for the largest city in the region of the same name), or Mesopotamia. -- RandomWriterGuy 01:34, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

I have to say Nuke, more of the Kurd areas would probably be in the Kurdistan section. Lordganon 22:48, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Name change poll
After thinking about it, and further encouraged by the comment I got, I am getting more interested in another naming idea I had for the two Arab republics. My idea: Lower Mesopotamia and Upper Mesopotamia. I don't know why, but I love the idea of using "upper" and "lower" in regional names (maybe because they are rarely used these days). Since most names with these "articles" are based primarily on rivers, Mesopotamia seems like a good candidate for these names.


 * Upper Mesopotamia is the Sunni state in the north (upper referring to the fact that it is further up from the mouth of the rivers).
 * Lower Mesopotamia is the Shia state (lower because it is lower down the rivers).
 * Mesopotamia can thereby be used as a united term for Iraqi Arabs (regardless of religious belief).

It makes more sense. "Mesopotamians" is often used to refer to Arab Iraqis in many aspects. Babylonia seems like a weird name, and Assyia is often used to describe to the Christians in northern Iraq (the Assyrians).

But I have decided to make a poll.

Which naming group do you want to be used. Assyria and Babylonia Lower Mesopotamia and Upper Mesopotamia Other (write suggestion below)

Have fun. Vote or die! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:53, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Purpose of the United Democracies (and Others)
(Note: From now on, I'll only send a post here once a week)

I want you to give you info on the new article I created-the United Democracies.

The United Democracies is similar to the United Nations, except that the organization is made out of liberal republics and has fewer flaws than the United Nations.

United Nations is the world's most important organization, but has major flaws, including the fact it is too bureaucratic, too slow and too incompetent in solving urgent humaniatarian or political crisis situations.

During the Rwanda Genocide, the world's liberal democracies wanted to use sanctions or military inteference, but the nations who opposed this plan were authoritan governments and dictatorships. The USSR and US realize that the United Nations' goal is to spread democracy around the world, but this goal, along with others, have been hindered by authoritan governments.

Knowing they have to take the situation in their hands, every liberal democracy creates an organization known as the United Democracies, with similar goals as the UN, but the organization bans authoritan governments or dictatorships, so that the goal of preserving and spreading freedom can be achieved.

As the years pass, more nations (new democraitc governments) began to join the organization. And in 2000, it is offical that the UD (short for the Un ited Democracies) is a more reliable organization then the UN.

Do you like this idea? (P.S. This is based on the Concert of Democracies; I am trying to nake this as my own as possible.)

I also have a few questions for this Timeline: RandomWriterGuy 19:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) How can Bin Laden get to Somalia if he has to crosss multiple borders? Getting to Pakistan was easy for him in OTL, but to reach Somalia, he has to cross several nations, and may get captured in his journey. The sea is also a bad option, since warships can capture him too. So since Somalia will have many dangers just to reach there, how will bin Laden get there?
 * 2) Will the U.S. economy recover and be off better than OTL?
 * 3) Will crime decline in the USSR?
 * 4) Will the timeline of technology be effected (aka new stuff invented earlier or later)?


 * For the record, there is nothing wrong with writing here more than once a week. The only thing I had trouble with was the fact that you uploaded your ideas in multiple sections. Do as I do, make one section and make a bullet list (makes it easier to keep track of ^_^).


 * I have had a long day to try and get the UD into my head. So far, I am beginning to get its main idea, but still a little fishy to me. So far, everything seems okay, and I can see Gorbachev going along with the idea, especially around the end of his term as President. The only things I would like to suggest and state are...


 * I can see English, French, Spanish, and Russian being the dominant languages, but why Portuguese? While Brazil and Portugal would be prominent members, not too sure if this is enough to make it a dominant language. But again, my love is in Russian, not Portuguese... so maybe I should just shut up. If I may make a suggestion, I think German should be added, because the [now] united Germany would play an important role in this organization (I would assume). The German name would be Vereinte Demokratie (by the way).
 * Bullet lists are cool.
 * My butt hurts.


 * Other than that, I am beginning to like the idea. My only question would be... is this organization a cooperator with the UN, or a rival? I also hope you don't mind, I added a proper infobox for the article. I would also suggest taking a look at the global map I made for the timeline. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:36, September 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Before I forget to answer them:
 * The question on Bin Laden makes pretty good sense. It makes even less sense when the nation bordering the two is a major Soviet ally. I guess we need to look further into this.
 * From what I have read on alternate history forums, the US economy would not begin to fail as in OTL. At the very least, it would go threw a minor recession. But my understandings on economics is practically none.
 * My focus has been more on politics and not too much cultural. But if I had to guess, the economic positives and a higher moral, I would be confident that crime would not be as rampant as it was in the 1990s.
 * I suppose so. I have already had in mind two technological expansions for the USSR. These include an expanding car industry which become more global than OTL, and the expansion of the GLONASS system (the Soviet's response to the US' GPS system). I also though it would be interesting that because SAKA is more focused on the people, they would make the GLONASS system available to the people of the USSR much earlier than the US did in OTL. When I mean "avaliable," I am referring to the people being able to pinpoint their location within centimeters, rather than the first GPS systems for the US.

--NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:49, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

I am glad you supported my UD article, and I'm here to respond from your message. Yes, I am thinking German can be added, but due to the large number of its speakers, Portuguese is why I chose it, but for the same reason, I migh add Japanese.'

To answer your question whether the UD is an ally or rival of the UN, the UD is an ally of the UN (and the UD acts as a part of the UN). For example, during the War on Terror, both the UD and UN supported the war. But when the UN fails to make the best decision for handling ant crisis, the UD takes the crisis in their own hands. Here are some examplese (and possible New Union proposals):

Venezula: Hugo Chavez has been accused by the international community for supporting drug cartels in Colombia. After a terrorist bombing in government buildings in Cali, Colombia during 2008, January 17th, Colombia accused Venezula of this, along with the international commun ity. The US and USSR want to declare war on Venezula to stop Hugo's injustice. But other nations refused this, which were authoritarian governments. Because Colombia's crisis was fueled by Hugo and the Colombian government seeking revenge, the UD decides to take control of the situation and declares war on Venezula. After months of fighting, Hugo is outsed from power and a new, democratic government takes place.

Zimbabwe: Zimbabwe is in a deteriorating situation, yet its leader, Mugambe, has ignored this. In order to end such injustice, the international community has pressured Mugambe to hand power to Tsvangirai. After months of pressure, Mugambe agreed, but later tried to assasinate him, forcing Tsvangirai and his family to flee to South Africa. Angered, the US and USSR want military action to destroy the Mugambe government, but China opposed this, forcing the UD to take the situation in their hands. After months of fighting, Mugambe is outsed from power, and Tsvanirai takes power.

I really hope this answers your question.

RandomWriterGuy 19:17, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

Balance of Power
Hi, I wanted to make a broad governing statement that might help you extrapolate what happens after the New Union Treaty. Sure, the Cold War might be over. But in ttl, the Soviet Union still went through a period of weakness in which the central government sought to consolidate its power under a new framework. This was the only reason that the Soviets would have gone along with the American model and conformed to the West. It was likely a tactic to go along with the temporary unipolarity of the international system, which became bipolar once more after the USSR's consolidation and the St. Petersburg Compromise. Once this occured, a balance of power would have to be maintained somehow.

I propose the easiest way to maintain the balance being an arms reduction treaty. The USA, a maritime power, would have to put a cap on its expeditionary forces, while the USSR, a predominantly land-based power, would have to put a cap on the number of naval vessels that could be deployed. Satellite technology would be developed to help enforce this balance, making sure that the opposing sides are keeping up to their treaty obligations.

A whole Neutral Bloc, in addition to what you have already in ttl could be created surrounding the Soviet Union and including some North American countries, like China, Mexico, and Iran. These would be powers that didn't wish to be part of either camp and would seek support from the superpowers regardless of alignment. They would also have the side-effect of containing the two superpowers geopolitically, balancing between both powers while holding back their power.

What do you think? This would maintain the bipolarity of the Cold War, but I could see a WWIII sparking easily. Another option, a little less realistic IMO, is to have a formal alliance between the superpowers, although this type of arrangement seems too much like friendship. It's up to you. Hope to see your thoughts. Gatemonger 23:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)1. Canada

2. United States

3. Mexico

4. Belize

5. Guatemala

6. Honduras

7. Nicaragua

8. El Salvador

9. Costa Rica

10. Panama

11. Bahamas

12. Jamaica

13. Dominican Republic

14. Antigua & Barbuda

15. St. Kitts & Nevis

16. Dominica

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">17. St. Lucia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">18. St. Vincent & the Grenadines

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">19. Barbados

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">20. Grenada

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">21. Trinidad & Tobago

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">22. Guyana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">23. Suriname

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">24. Colombia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">25. Ecuador

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">26. Peru

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">27. Bolivia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">28. Paraguay

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">29. Uruguay

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">30. Brazil

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">31. Chile

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">32. Argentina

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">33. Mali

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">34. Senegal

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">35. Cape Verde

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">36. Sierra Leone

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">37. Liberia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">38. Ghana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">39. Benin

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">40. Ethiopia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">41. Sao Tome and Principe

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">42. Republic of the Congo

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">43. Tanzania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">44. Angola

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">45. Zambia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">46. Malawi

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">47. Mozambique

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">48. Seychelles

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">49. Comoros

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">50. Mauritius

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">51. Namibia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">52. Botswana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">53. South Africa

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">54. Lesotho

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">55. Australia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">56. New Zealand

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">57. Papua New Guinea

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">58. Vanuatu

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">59. Nauru

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">60. Tuvalu

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">61. Kiribati

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">62. Samoa

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">63. Tonga

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">64. Indonesia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">65. Philippines

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">66. Vietnam

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">67. Laos

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">68. Cambodia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">69. South Korea

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">70. Japan

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">71. Maldives

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">72. India

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">73. Bangladesh

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">74. Afghanistan

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">75. South Yemen

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">76. Israel

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">77. Iraq

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">78. Turkey

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">79. Georgia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">80. Armenia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">81. Cyprus

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">82. Mongolia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">83. Soviet Union

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">84. Estonia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">85. Latvia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">86. Lithuania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">87. Norway

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">88. Sweden

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">89. Finland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">90. Denmark

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">91. Ireland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">92. Iceland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">93. United Kingdom

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">94. Romania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">95. Bulgaria

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">96. Greece

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">97. Albania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">98. Yugoslavia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">99. Croatia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">100. Slovenia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">101. Hungary

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">102. Austria

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">103. Czechoslovakia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">104. Poland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">105. Germany

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">106. Netherlands

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">107. Belgium

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">108. Luxembourg

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">109. Liechtenstein

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">110. Italy

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">111. San Marino

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">112. Malta

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">113. France

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">114. Spain

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">115. Portugal

Here’s another list of countries that join the organization over time and how and when:

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">1. Taiwan: 1995, February 3rd (UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">2. Switzerland: 1995, May 1st (Was interested in the UD, though it did not want to get involved much)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">3. Egypt: 1995, September 15th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">4. Vatican City: 1995, December 1st (UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">5. Cuba: 1996, October 4th (When the political reforms finally were in effect)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">6. Singapore: 1998, September 5th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">7. Kenya: 1998, October 7th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">8. Rwanda: 1999, May 13th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">9. Burundi: 1999, May 13th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">10. Hong Kong: 1999, August 12th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">11. Macau: 1999, August 12th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">12. Uganda: 1999, September 21st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">13. Kuwait: 1999, November 14th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">14. Qatar: 1999, December 1st (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">15. UAE: 2000, January 16th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">16. Thailand: 2000, July 1st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">17. Fiji Islands: 2000, July 24th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">18. Solomon Islands: 2000, August 4th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">19. Jordan: 2000, October 13th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">20. Somalia: 2009, September 11th ( Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">21. Sudan: 2009, September 11th (Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">22. Tunisia: 2011, March 19th (Zine El Abidine Ben Ali resigned as President, allowing a new, democratic government to form)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">23. Libya: 2011, September 8th (Rebel side ousted Qaddafi, allowing a new, democratic government in the country)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I do have possible proposals, including:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Haiti: 1996, April 13th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Venezuela: 2008, July 13th (Hugo’s overthrow allowed a new liberal democracy)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Zimbabwe: 2011, February 9th (Mugabe’s overthrow allowed a new liberal democracy)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">American and Soviet Spheres of Influence:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I was wondering that if you can make a map showing the American and Soviet spheres of influence. That way, I can know who’s on the USSR’s side and who’s on the US’s side.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I also have a proposal for two organizations: SCSTO (Soviet Collective Security Treaty Organization) and the ACSTO (American Collective Security Treaty Organization). The members of the two organizations will represent the sphere of influence they are in. (Nations in the American Sphere of Influence will be in the ACSTO, and Nations in the Soviet Sphere of Influence will be in the SCSTO) Because of this NATO would be disbanded and incorporated into the ACSTO. For the Neutral Bloc, if they are going to remain neutral from both organizations, I believe they should no longer be in the Soviet Sphere of Influence.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Pashtunistan:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Because this government is run by radical Islamists, I was wondering how that will affect the War on Terror. Supporting and praising the 9/11 and Moscow Metro Bombing attacks, they opposed the War in Sudan, but when the War in Somalia occurred, Pashtunistan invaded Afghanistan to draw the Soviets from the war, causing the third war in the War on Terror, the War in Pashtunistan, where the country was quickly overrun by Afghan and Soviet troops, but the Pashtuns were also supported by the Iranian and Pakistani governments, straining their relationship with the Soviet Union. Eventually, the Islamic regime is rid of in Pashtunistan, and the Soviets fight insurgencies in the country.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Compromise before the St. Petersgrad Compromise:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I do feel that autonomous republics under 600,000 will not be able to get their populations up quick enough to become republics. So in this compromise, the USSR makes this compromise to those ASSRs so they don’t have to wait, since their populations were small. Republics over 600,000 will just have to wait.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Religion (Christianity fastest growing religion?):

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I am not trying to be offended here, but I thought this because with the reformation of the USSR devout Soviet Christians are more willing to spread their religion. As a result, many Christians in the USSR began to travel worldwide to spread their religion, causing Christianity, not Islam to be the fastest growing religion.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I would love to give you more, but this is all what I can think of. Good luck!

<p style="margin-left:.25in">RandomWriterGuy 23:21, September 28, 2011 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">You may want to add a list of suspended/kicked off nations, if there were some unstable ones (such as in Africa) where the legit government was overthrown. LurkerLordB 23:38, September 28, 2011 (UTC) -->

Some More Stuff That Took So Long To Make
I really want to tell you about some important things. Now, I had to put this separate because it would take so long to make.

UD Membership:

To give you the number of nations who joined at the first meeting in the organization, here they are:


 * I have hidden the list (but it is still here). The reason is because he way you coded it glitches my computer, and I am too lazy to fix over a hundred nations.<!--

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">1. Canada

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">2. United States

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">3. Mexico

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">4. Belize

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">5. Guatemala

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">6. Honduras

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">7. Nicaragua

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">8. El Salvador

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">9. Costa Rica

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">10. Panama

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">11. Bahamas

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">12. Jamaica

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">13. Dominican Republic

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">14. Antigua & Barbuda

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">15. St. Kitts & Nevis

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">16. Dominica

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">17. St. Lucia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">18. St. Vincent & the Grenadines

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">19. Barbados

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">20. Grenada

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">21. Trinidad & Tobago

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">22. Guyana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">23. Suriname

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">24. Colombia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">25. Ecuador

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">26. Peru

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">27. Bolivia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">28. Paraguay

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">29. Uruguay

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">30. Brazil

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">31. Chile

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">32. Argentina

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">33. Mali

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">34. Senegal

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">35. Cape Verde

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">36. Sierra Leone

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">37. Liberia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">38. Ghana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">39. Benin

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">40. Ethiopia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">41. Sao Tome and Principe

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">42. Republic of the Congo

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">43. Tanzania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">44. Angola

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">45. Zambia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">46. Malawi

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">47. Mozambique

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">48. Seychelles

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">49. Comoros

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">50. Mauritius

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">51. Namibia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">52. Botswana

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">53. South Africa

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">54. Lesotho

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">55. Australia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">56. New Zealand

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">57. Papua New Guinea

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">58. Vanuatu

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">59. Nauru

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">60. Tuvalu

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">61. Kiribati

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">62. Samoa

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">63. Tonga

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">64. Indonesia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">65. Philippines

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">66. Vietnam

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">67. Laos

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">68. Cambodia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">69. South Korea

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">70. Japan

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">71. Maldives

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">72. India

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">73. Bangladesh

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">74. Afghanistan

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">75. South Yemen

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">76. Israel

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">77. Iraq

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">78. Turkey

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">79. Georgia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">80. Armenia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">81. Cyprus

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">82. Mongolia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">83. Soviet Union

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">84. Estonia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">85. Latvia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">86. Lithuania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">87. Norway

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">88. Sweden

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">89. Finland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">90. Denmark

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">91. Ireland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">92. Iceland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">93. United Kingdom

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">94. Romania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">95. Bulgaria

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">96. Greece

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">97. Albania

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">98. Yugoslavia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">99. Croatia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">100. Slovenia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">101. Hungary

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">102. Austria

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">103. Czechoslovakia

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">104. Poland

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">105. Germany

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">106. Netherlands

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">107. Belgium

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">108. Luxembourg

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">109. Liechtenstein

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">110. Italy

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">111. San Marino

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">112. Malta

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">113. France

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">114. Spain

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">115. Portugal

Here’s another list of countries that join the organization over time and how and when:

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">1. Taiwan: 1995, February 3rd (UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">2. Switzerland: 1995, May 1st (Was interested in the UD, though it did not want to get involved much)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">3. Egypt: 1995, September 15th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">4. Vatican City: 1995, December 1st (UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">5. Cuba: 1996, October 4th (When the political reforms finally were in effect)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">6. Singapore: 1998, September 5th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">7. Kenya: 1998, October 7th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">8. Rwanda: 1999, May 13th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">9. Burundi: 1999, May 13th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">10. Hong Kong: 1999, August 12th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">11. Macau: 1999, August 12th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">12. Uganda: 1999, September 21st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">13. Kuwait: 1999, November 14th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">14. Qatar: 1999, December 1st (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">15. UAE: 2000, January 16th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">16. Thailand: 2000, July 1st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">17. Fiji Islands: 2000, July 24th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">18. Solomon Islands: 2000, August 4th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">19. Jordan: 2000, October 13th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">20. Somalia: 2009, September 11th ( Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">21. Sudan: 2009, September 11th (Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">22. Tunisia: 2011, March 19th (Zine El Abidine Ben Ali resigned as President, allowing a new, democratic government to form)

<p style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">23. Libya: 2011, September 8th (Rebel side ousted Qaddafi, allowing a new, democratic government in the country)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I do have possible proposals, including:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Haiti: 1996, April 13th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Venezuela: 2008, July 13th (Hugo’s overthrow allowed a new liberal democracy)

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Zimbabwe: 2011, February 9th (Mugabe’s overthrow allowed a new liberal democracy) -->

<p style="margin-left:.25in">American and Soviet Spheres of Influence:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I was wondering that if you can make a map showing the American and Soviet spheres of influence. That way, I can know who’s on the USSR’s side and who’s on the US’s side.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I also have a proposal for two organizations: SCSTO (Soviet Collective Security Treaty Organization) and the ACSTO (American Collective Security Treaty Organization). The members of the two organizations will represent the sphere of influence they are in. (Nations in the American Sphere of Influence will be in the ACSTO, and Nations in the Soviet Sphere of Influence will be in the SCSTO) Because of this NATO would be disbanded and incorporated into the ACSTO. For the Neutral Bloc, if they are going to remain neutral from both organizations, I believe they should no longer be in the Soviet Sphere of Influence.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Pashtunistan:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Because this government is run by radical Islamists, I was wondering how that will affect the War on Terror. Supporting and praising the 9/11 and Moscow Metro Bombing attacks, they opposed the War in Sudan, but when the War in Somalia occurred, Pashtunistan invaded Afghanistan to draw the Soviets from the war, causing the third war in the War on Terror, the War in Pashtunistan, where the country was quickly overrun by Afghan and Soviet troops, but the Pashtuns were also supported by the Iranian and Pakistani governments, straining their relationship with the Soviet Union. Eventually, the Islamic regime is rid of in Pashtunistan, and the Soviets fight insurgencies in the country.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Compromise before the St. Petersgrad Compromise:

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I do feel that autonomous republics under 600,000 will not be able to get their populations up quick enough to become republics. So in this compromise, the USSR makes this compromise to those ASSRs so they don’t have to wait, since their populations were small. Republics over 600,000 will just have to wait.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">Religion (Christianity fastest growing religion?):

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I am not trying to be offended here, but I thought this because with the reformation of the USSR devout Soviet Christians are more willing to spread their religion. As a result, many Christians in the USSR began to travel worldwide to spread their religion, causing Christianity, not Islam to be the fastest growing religion.

<p style="margin-left:.25in">I would love to give you more, but this is all what I can think of. Good luck!

<p style="margin-left:.25in">RandomWriterGuy 01:32, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * The idea of that American sphere grouping is, honestly, ridiculous. The Soviet one staying intact is bad enough, but you're talking about independent countries. They would never agree to something, especially named almost the same as Soviet one.


 * The idea that the Soviets would invade an area that they pulled out of like that is even worse. That's like shooting yourself in the foot, stopping the bleeding and getting it almost healed, and then doing it again.


 * There are reasons for Islam to grow faster. It has absolutely nothing to do with the religion spreading. Which won't change.


 * The terms of the compromise are different than what you suggest. Irregardless, your belief holds little truth to it.


 * And, overall, the idea that, even atl, the Americans and Soviets would both join such a thing makes no sense. The American people and government would never do it.


 * And, quit that format stuff, please. All it is is extra garbage that clutters the page. -- Lordganon 03:26, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Lordganon. In fact, he took the words right out of my mouth (more or less). While there will be several Soviet allies that would be willing to continue cooperation with the USSR, there is no way that all of them would be willing to spark a second Cold War. I am very happy the way NATO, the CSTO, and the Neutral Bloc are the way they are. I have no intentions of changing what is canon for them, nor do I have any intentions of them being dissolved to form a SCSTO or an ACSTO.


 * I was also going to be bringing this up, what exactly is the United Democracies. I am supportive of an organization that works on American-Soviet cooperation, but what exactly are they cooperating on? Do you really expect that this organization would be "declaring war" on other nations? That is one level of crazy, but the other thing is that the American and Soviet definition of democracy can be two different words. I also have some concerns for the two nations that you used as references: Zimbabwe and Venezuela. While I know nothing about Zimbabwe, Venezuela would most likely have had cooperation with the USSR (because Chavez is socialist). Granted, I am confident that the USSR would be against him supporting drug cartels and supporting acts of terrorism upon his neighbors, but I am pretty confident that the USSR would not agree to launch any attack on a nation without hard evidence. At the very least, they would agree on some sanctions, but nothing more. I like to see the USSR more or less like OTL Russia. Despite the fact that Russia has been moving back and fourth between nostalgia and progress, they still haven't launched an invasion of any nation (other than what once made up the USSR). Gorbachev feared that the USA was moving towards becoming the "global police," taking it into their hands to protect the world. With the USSR gone, Gorbachev's fears came true. With the USSR in tact, I am confident that they would work on counteracting the USA in many ways. I am confident they would support them on some wars (like the war of Sudan after 9/11), but nothing else without evidence (like OTL Iraq, or your suggestion of Venezuela).


 * I would also like to leave the aspects of religion to their bare basics for this timeline.


 * As for Pashtunistan, absolutely not. I consider the divide between Afghanistan and Pashtunistan to be something like Cyprus in OTL. While I agree the Pashtunistan would be a semi-safe haven for terrorists organizations, I highly dough they would go to war against the north, and fear a second Soviet war. Neighboring Pakistan and Iran help keep Pashtunistan surviving, I dough they would need to consider a war.


 * That is pretty much it. And for Lordganon... what do you mean by "The Soviet one staying intact is bad enough"? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 14:03, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Please, I am super sorry for the back texting content. It was all done on Microsoft Word. Also, I also apoligize for my bad ideas.

But I was thinking if you can give the list of nations in the American Sphere, and those in the Soviet sphere. That way, people will know which country is on which side.

For the United Democracies, what the Americans and Soviets are co-operating on in this organization is similar to the United Nations. The United Democracies acts as a part on the UN, but, here's a acatch. If the UN fails to make a decision in order to handle a political or other severe crisis, than the United Democracies steps in and takes care of the problem. The UD is aiming for peac like the UN, in a similar matter, but with more success.

--RandomWriterGuy 17:11, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * No worries. No need to be sorry. You have to break some eggs to make an omelet. As for the spheres of influence... there isn't really any (at least not in the manner you want). Rather than a definitive sphere, all nations cooperate equally with the US and USSR. For instance... France. They are a member of NATO, yet equally worked with both the US, UK, and the USSR. But if you really need a defined border, I would probably say that... the former communist states (other than China) and pro-socialist nations (like Venezuela and even Nicaragua) are part of the Soviet sphere, while the US sphere would probably remain in North America and the Pacific region. Western Europe could also be in the US sphere, but the EU is currently growing into a power of itself. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:21, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Nuke, what it is, for all purposes, is a "New Warsaw Pact." Armenia, as otl, makes a little sense. Mongolia, in the overall context, does as well. But I just don't see the others, and the concept overall, as making much sense.

As Nuke said, the concept of "Spheres of Influence" makes little sense, overall. Yes, they have a little more influence in certain areas, but it's not a "sphere" or anything. That translates, much more so, into real power over certain areas.

There's really no need for any group like that. As seen often otl, the powers will act on their own. The West may have cared about Rwanda enough to try and get UN intervention, like otl, but as they did many times, they could have simply ignored the failure and went in anyways, but they did not. Why on earth would it be different here, especially in that context? There's no need at all for it. t would also mess with international law, and replace the UN. There's no doubt about that.

As I said, why would the Americans and Soviets do this? Neither public would go for the concept, nor would they in most of those nations. They are democracies, many of them not by much - there is no way that they would support random interventions.

Lordganon 22:12, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

List of UD member nations
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">I did give you the list last time for the members of the UD and future members. I was wondering f you can respond to it this time, so I thought I made the list, but the context is more appropriate.


 * 1) Canada

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 0.25in; ">Those above were the members when first founded. Here are the members that join the organization over time, with their date of entry and reasons:
 * 1) United States
 * 2) Mexico
 * 3) Belize
 * 4) Guatemala
 * 5) Honduras
 * 6) Nicaragua
 * 7) El Salvador
 * 8) Costa Rica
 * 9) Panama
 * 10) Bahamas
 * 11) Jamaica
 * 12) Dominican Republic
 * 13) Antigua & Barbuda
 * 14) St. Kitts & Nevis
 * 15) Dominica
 * 16) St. Lucia
 * 17) St. Vincent & the Grenadines
 * 18) Barbados
 * 19) Grenada
 * 20) Trinidad & Tobago
 * 21) Guyana
 * 22) Suriname
 * 23) Colombia
 * 24) Ecuador
 * 25) Peru
 * 26) Bolivia
 * 27) Paraguay
 * 28) Uruguay
 * 29) Brazil
 * 30) Chile
 * 31) Argentina
 * 32) Mali
 * 33) Senegal
 * 34) Cape Verde
 * 35) Sierra Leone
 * 36) Liberia
 * 37) Ghana
 * 38) Benin
 * 39) Ethiopia
 * 40) Sao Tome and Principe
 * 41) Republic of the Congo
 * 42) Tanzania
 * 43) Angola
 * 44) Zambia
 * 45) Malawi
 * 46) Mozambique
 * 47) Seychelles
 * 48) Comoros
 * 49) Mauritius
 * 50) Namibia
 * 51) Botswana
 * 52) South Africa
 * 53) Lesotho
 * 54) Australia
 * 55) New Zealand
 * 56) Papua New Guinea
 * 57) Vanuatu
 * 58) Nauru
 * 59) Tuvalu
 * 60) Kiribati
 * 61) Samoa
 * 62) Tonga
 * 63) Indonesia
 * 64) Philippines
 * 65) Vietnam
 * 66) Laos
 * 67) Cambodia
 * 68) South Korea
 * 69) Japan
 * 70) Maldives
 * 71) India
 * 72) Bangladesh
 * 73) Afghanistan
 * 74) South Yemen
 * 75) Israel
 * 76) Iraq
 * 77) Turkey
 * 78) Georgia
 * 79) Armenia
 * 80) Cyprus
 * 81) Mongolia
 * 82) Soviet Union
 * 83) Estonia
 * 84) Latvia
 * 85) Lithuania
 * 86) Norway
 * 87) Sweden
 * 88) Finland
 * 89) Denmark
 * 90) Ireland
 * 91) Iceland
 * 92) United Kingdom
 * 93) Romania
 * 94) Bulgaria
 * 95) Greece
 * 96) Albania
 * 97) Yugoslavia
 * 98) Croatia
 * 99) Slovenia
 * 100) Hungary
 * 101) Austria
 * 102) Czechoslovakia
 * 103) Poland
 * 104) Germany
 * 105) Netherlands
 * 106) Belgium
 * 107) Luxembourg
 * 108) Liechtenstein
 * 109) Italy
 * 110) San Marino
 * 111) Malta
 * 112) France
 * 113) Spain
 * 114) Portugal

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 0.25in; ">The list of nations below aren't part of the list above because I want to make sure they were canon enough:
 * 1) <span style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; color: rgb(58, 58, 58); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">Taiwan: 1995, February 3<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">rd (UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)
 * 1) Switzerland: 1995, May 1<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">st (Was interested in the UD, though it did not want to get involved much)
 * 1) Egypt: 1995, September 15<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Vatican City: 1995, December 1<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">st  <span style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; color: rgb(58, 58, 58); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; ">(UD allowed it to join under certain conditions)
 * 1) Cuba: 1996, October 4<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (When the political reforms finally were in effect)
 * 1) Singapore: 1998, September 5<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)
 * 1) Kenya: 1998, October 7<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Rwanda: 1999, May 13<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)
 * 1) Burundi: 1999, May 13<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Political situation stable and democratic enough)
 * 1) Hong Kong: 1999, August 12<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)
 * 1) Macau: 1999, August 12<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Interested in the UD, though decision was approved by China)
 * 1) Uganda: 1999, September 21<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Kuwait: 1999, November 14<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)
 * 1) Qatar: 1999, December 1<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">st (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)
 * 1) UAE: 2000, January 16<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Government made reforms when it began to get interested in the UD)
 * 1) Thailand: 2000, July 1<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">st (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Fiji Islands: 2000, July 24<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Solomon Islands: 2000, August 4<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Jordan: 2000, October 13<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)
 * 1) Somalia: 2009, September 11<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th ( Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)
 * 1) Sudan: 2009, September 11<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Political situation was soon stable enough for democracy)
 * 1) Tunisia: 2011, March 19<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Zine El Abidine Ben Ali resigned as President, allowing a new, democratic government to form)
 * 1) Libya: 2011, September 8<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Rebel side ousted Qaddafi, allowing a new, democratic government in the country)

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0.25in; ">Haiti: 1996, April 13<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Popular protest forced changes and reforms in the government)

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 0.25in; ">Venezuela: 2008, July 13<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Hugo’s overthrow during a revolt by his people allowed a new liberal democracy)

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 0.25in; ">Zimbabwe: 2011, February 9<sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">th (Mugabe’s overthrow allowed a new liberal democracy)

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 0.25in; ">RandomWriterGuy 22:28, September 29, 2011 (UTC)