Talk:13 Fallen Stars

Any chances of a map? --VonGlusenburg 19:38, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

I adopt this TL out of the kindness of my extremely large heart. Bobalugee1940 18:40, May 30, 2011 (UTC)

Nuke here


Greetings all. I am happy to announce that I have become the caretaker of the 13 Fallen Stars timeline. I have always been a particular fan of this timeline since I came across it about a year ago, and I have been of the timeline for a few months now. After talking with Bobalugee1940 on the matter, he has allowed me to take over. I am honored to be here, and I hope to get this timeline up and running.

I do have big plans for this timeline, starting with updating the articles already in place. I also plan to create a map of this timeline, in order for all of us to better understand what is going on. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:30, December 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I can see European conflict in the America's since the Monroe Doctrine would never exists, then again James Monroe could gain a strong arm in politics. The Carolina's and Virginia would engage in a long-term competition for control of trade involving products such as Cotton and Tobbaco; The Cotton War's, I daresay, would wear off in the mid/late 1800's. I don't have very plausible idea's but I still would like to see something similar to my "Cotton War" idea at the very least. However, this is your timeline and you should try to to satisfy everyone (including yourself). I admit that I love reading through your existing timelines and would love to see what you plan to do to expand this. BlackSkyEmpire 02:41, December 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Glad to see you are exited. I do have some plans for Carolina and Virginia, but nothing on the order that you propose. My understanding (and interest [nothing against them]) is very limited on the southern states. But what I do know about TTL is Virginia goes into bitter wars with the British Empire in North America, and Carolina witnesses a terrorist movement by . If you are interested, you are more than welcome to get involved in this timeline (I am completely open to outside work). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:48, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

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What is going to be happening


Like I mentioned before, I have big ideas for this timeline. The first things I have to work on would be how the butterfly affect really affects this timeline. With no US, the French Revolution would be a bust. Any revolutions in Latin America would be pointless, with all of them becoming commonwealth-like nations of Spain. Europe remains a hodgepodge of small nations and divided peoples. Monarchism is the most popular form of government, and what we know as the thirteen colonies become more like OTL Latin America (divided and unsure). I have to admit, it took me a long time to be able to see myself in this timeline, as it is completely alien to me.

Okay, on to the main event. I have uploaded a map showing how I see North America. It is based on the nations list, but also my own ideas put in mind. The only new country I added to the list is the. This was a proposed nation of Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. Unlike the proposal in OTL, it would be a Canada-like confederation of Spanish commonwealths. Other than that, I don't see much else to add or remove at the present. My only concern would be New Spain. I am wondering if it could remain a united entity, or whether it would eventually be divided into its three main regions (California, Guatemala, and Mexico). Yes, I know very little about monarchism, so my understanding towards this dominion would be limited. I also am curious if France could actually hold onto Louisiana. Granted, there is no way it would become part of any post-US nation, but could a poor and war ravaged France (no Napoleonic Wars, but still war ravaged) hold onto it for long. Could it fall under British or Spanish possession? One of my favorite ideas at the present is that it would become a safe haven for revolutionaries of France (maybe Napoleon himself), and become an independent republic. Just a thought, I will see what you all think.



I have currently updated and, giving them new information boxes and flags. The new flag of Carolina looks a lot like the Stars and Bars of the Confederate States of America, and it seems appropriate. For this timeline, the flag is based loosely on the former flag of the United States. The three stripes (bars) represent the three founding states. A circle of eight stars represents the eight states currently in the confederation. The flag of Pennsylvania is based on the flag of Philadelphia. This seemed appropriate, since the flag of New Netherland I heavily based on the flag of New York City. I currently don't have TTL symbolism for the flag, but all in good time.

I also have an idea for Virginia, but I want to see what you all think. Basically, it is the Confederate flag (a rectangular version of the CSA battle flag). The battle flag originated in Virginia (I never knew this until recently), so it seemed appropriate. Much like OTL, the flag originated from war in TTL. My back story for the flag would be it came out during the Second Northwest War. The original coloring was blue with a red cross, but Virginia reversed this because it looked too much like the British flag. The twelve stars don't represent any subdivisions of Virginia, but officially represent the thirteen colonies which revolted against Great Britain. This is compared to OTL flag of Honduras, which has five stars on its flag to represent the five Central American nations which once formed the. Similar to OTL, the flag was originally a battle flag, but an altered versions was eventually adopted as the national flag. I would love to know what you all think of this particular idea before I make anything canon, but I love the idea.

That's it for now. TTFN. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:31, December 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * I just noticed the map and how Nova Scotia and New Brunswick aren't apart of the map. It dawned on me then that the only reason the colonies stayed with Canada in the first place is because of the possible threat of an American takeover. Without the US there would be no threat for those colonies of course, but what of Quebec? Surely the fact that there's no threat to the colony as well as the fact that these smaller American colonies had gained independence would influence Quebec too to either become independent or not join Canada. That could possibly mean Quebec would be independent in "modern-day" TTL. Just a thought of course, not trying to push you into it. (Also, if you don't want this comment here I could move it to a new section.) ChrisL123 05:43, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Prepare to kill me, for I have an ambitious idea, and it will greatly affect the timeline (and I am looking forward to it). Chris, you have inspired me ^_^



Okay, okay. Onto business. Chris does make a good point (I should know, he is the Canadian expert). With no US, there may be enough reason for Great Britain to not divide the (at least not initially). Not to be a British hater or anything, but I can envision the British acting "cocky" about the former US and its remaining colonies. I mean that the UK could adopt a policy in which they truly believe that given time, the independent colonies would come crawling back to Great Britain (this obviously doesn't happen).

The second half of this idea involves around the failure of the French Revolution. The timeline doesn't exactly mention why this happens, but I believe this is a given. The failure would be seen by the French people in America as outsiders affecting the fate of France itself. By this time, Louisiana is under Spanish control (the failure of the revolution would mean France never regained it, and obviously the US never bought it), and Canada is under British control. Both regions were lost to them in the 1760s, when France lost the Seven Years War. Despite a decline, I can see the French population remaining strong enough to make change. With the ideals of the American Revolution still fresh, Britain still recovering, Spain focused on potential revolution in South America, and most likely backing from many of the now independent British colonies and especially France; I believe we can witness a "Second French Revolution" breaking out in America. Similar to Haiti, war would break out across Louisiana and Quebec. The revolutions would be successful, with the two French regions gaining independence. With them independent, this would further encourage the British and Spanish to allow political change in their [remaining] colonies. I can see the Loyalists from the Thirteen colonies (who emigrated to Quebec during the war), being more encouraged to flee Quebec rather than fight. Winnipeg would become larger, and I would love to see Rupert's Land and the North-Western Territories become the Dominion of Borealia. I know this makes it sound a lot like my Russian America timeline. But unlike which, the French population in America would boom after the revolutions. With only a few decades between the occupation and independence, there may be enough incentive to "purge" the English culture form the French land, and so on. Both would be republics (most likely federations).

I am exited about this idea. I hope you all like it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:19, December 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hm, very interesting idea. If you like, I could help out with the Canada-side of the timeline. ChrisL123 21:43, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

It is certainly a new twist on the Balkanized North America trope. I will be following this. Mitro 01:58, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't the nation be called the Kingdom of Borealia, as the Americans were the primary reason Canada was declared a "Dominion" rather than a "Kingdom" Also I would think that "Assiniboia" would be a good name, as it was what the Earl of Selkirk officially called his land grant in what was then "Rupert's Land".

Yank 02:19, December 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * It could only be called a kingdom if it was ruled by a king (or queen), which it wouldn't be since the British Empire would rule over it. And I doubt that the whole country would be called Assiniboia since that was only the Manitoba part of the country, but of course that's all up to Nuke. ChrisL123 02:32, December 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * It could be a kingdom, just that the current British monarch would be the king and would have a longer title. Mitro 02:40, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I am a republican. If I had it my way, the United Kingdom would be called the United Republic (this is joke, you laugh now!). But seriously, I believe it should only have the name "Kingdom" (or Empire in the case for Brazil and Mexico in OTL) if it were run by their own royalty, not a monarch who is an ocean away. I believe "Dominion" or even "Commonwealth" is a better title. Like Chris said (as I was the one who told him this), Assiniboia is more of a regional name. Granted, it was used to describe the entirety of Rupert's Land, but this nation would incorporate that and the North-Western Territory. That would be like uniting the colonies of Australia into one "Commonwealth of New South Wales." But than again, they united the two Canadas and the Maritime Provinces into a larger Canada, so maybe I should shut up.

Ironically, this timeline has practically giving all the nations "Kingdom Status," while still being ruled by their motherland. Like I mentioned before, I am a republican, so all this monarchism is confusing me (I know very little about it). All I do know is that England and Scotland (not to mention Ireland and Wales later on) agreed to share the same monarch and are granted "British" citizenship. While Canada still recognizes the monarch of England as their head of state, they are independent from the UK. So unless the UK wants to become the "United Kingdom of Great Britain, Ireland, and Canada," let's keep "Kingdom" out of the names. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:41, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

What would be a good idea for a capital for Louisiana? I seriously doubt either Baton Rouge or New Orleans will suffice, as they are too close to New Spain. I do believe that the (now abandoned) settlement of Fort Orleans is a proper candidate for capital status.

Yank 04:15, December 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Baton Rouge would be a bad idea... considering it is in West Florida XD But in all fairness, top choice is St. Louis. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:50, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure? St Louis lies directly on the Mississippi River, which is the border with Canada.

Yank 13:08, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Besides we need to make the changes to the Canada article, as well as the timeline. Not to mention actually creating the Louisiana page.

Yank 03:36, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

No need to worry. There is no rush, we have all the time in the world (or at least another year before the [joke]). But anyways, I have been doing some thinking and I have more ideas to announce. First off, I updated the main map, to show where we all are. For the capital of Louisiana, I have now been thinking about making it OTL (but with a new name). The biggest reason is simple... it's called the "Paris of the Plains." If that isn't a good enough reason, it is located on the Missouri river (giving it great access to the world via the Mississippi), it has become a railroad hub in OTL, and it is witnessing a boom (not to mention its flag is based off of France's flag). My two other ideas involve the states of New England and Carolina. But I am tired, so I will write them in greater detail tomorrow.

Also before I forget, any objections to the flag proposals? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:51, December 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just a note, Oregon was the name given to the Columbia territory by American settlers. If there are no American settlers, the region would maintain the British name. Likely Columbia or British Columbia.Oerwinde 11:13, December 21, 2011 (UTC)



Here is my Carolina proposal. was established by the unification of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia (not to mention all of its claims to the Mississippi river). Tennessee would be split off of North Carolina (as in OTL), but the remaining states are tricky. The page says that Mississippi and Alabama are added, followed by a divided West Florida and East Florida. As a Floridian, we all learn that the Florida panhandle once stretched all the way to the Mississippi. While West Florida wanted to become part of the US as their own state, there were many things that helped to prevent this in OTL. Border disputes between the US and Spain, the need for water access, among other things.

When it comes to this timeline, I think there could be a way that West Florida would have a better chance at becoming a Carolinian state. First, it should be known that the northern border of West Florida has been debated early in OTL. It wouldn't be until 1795 (I believe) that Spain would agree on the 31st parallel (which is the modern day border for Florida (not to mention the Florida portion of Louisiana). However, since the US didn't exist, there may be no such treaty, and the dispute would remain until West Florida declares independence. West Florida would want statehood, and (being admitted as an English-speaking state) would want the British border (which is further north). Since the region was highly disputed to begin with, I think Carolina would eventually agree to West Florida's border (maybe with a minor border correction). East Florida would follow, and a new question comes to mind... what will become of the western portions of Georgia? (i.e., Alabama and Mississippi). With no defined access to the ocean, I dough Alabama would gain statehood, and would remain part of the Mississippi Territory (or its equivalent). Because of which, I propose the larger state of Yazoo (one of the proposed names for Alabama and Mississippi). This region is most noted for a huge scandal that happened in the 1790s. But aside from that, I believe this name would be resurrected.

So the only major change would be that the state number goes down to seven instead of eight (making a good match to the original Stars and Bars XD). What do you all think? I am still working on my New England idea, so I will write that later. Also, FIND THE EASTER EGG!!! XD --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:41, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Looks fine, Nuke. Can't see the EE, mind.

Somewhere around K-City would be a good spot for the capital. Though, it'd almost for sure start out in New Orleans. Call it moving inland to be more secure, I guess.

Lordganon 07:30, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry I missed this but perhaps it would be more plausible to use that design if the stars represented something more closely related to Virginia, like its own subdivisions. Also if the stars represent the 13 colonies that revolted against Britian, why is there only 12?  Mitro 17:34, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about 12 stars? There are 13. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:37, December 27, 2011 (UTC)