Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

Initial Discussions
We agreed that we would not make the page until 1 January 2014. Sorry that memo was not communicated here. Mscoree (talk) 19:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Its under construction, these things aren't done overnight. Scandinator (talk) 01:44, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

Im claiming the Timurids just so ya know. DS|The Rainbow Machete 22:42, December 27, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being mostly useless last game, I'll try to use my brain this time :D Airlinesguy (talk) 15:15, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

One last warning to anyone claiming anything in Italy. Don't want to ruin the game for anyone, but your game will be pretty short if you're in Italy. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 14:03, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Korea is not a vassal to china. Japan owns korea. ShadowKnights1234 12/29/13 10:20 (EST)

Aborigines? Mafia CBA doing his signature. Don't judge Him. This Sig is inspired by Guns. 16:05, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

The nation list is not complete. This page is under construction. Mscoree (talk) 16:12, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Can I add the Aborigines? And under what name should I add them, if I can add them? Mafia CBA doing his signature. Don't judge Him. This Sig is inspired by Guns. 16:13, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Shadow, Korea was always a vassal of China up until the 1910s. Japanese never able to successful invade and conquer Korea, and it remained under Chinese protection until 1912 when Japan annexed it following the collapse of the Qing Empire, which could no longer defend Korea. And besides, the first Japanese invasion of Korea didn't take place until 1593, two hundred years from the game start, and before that, Japan wasn't even unified. As of 1400, both China and Korea are in better positions that Japan. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:26, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe in PM4 Ill be a mod lol DS|The Rainbow Machete 12:54, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

^Weep for this game's future.

Genoa is not a French vassal, hell it even was a naval supperpower at that time. OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Actually, Oct is right. Genoa wasn't a vassal until the Doge (wow such Genoan. Much naval. Wow) of Genoa signed Genoa as a French vassal in 1458. That being said, Oct, it really went downhill since it had a really costly war with Venice. That and the rising Ottomans killed the power Genoa held in the 14th century. That being said, it isn't impossible to get it back. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 16:20, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Of course, Genoa will most probably be devastated after with someone else, am I right, Crim?

17:31, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

lol. Doge... Much Map Game. Many ASB. Very PMII. 17:58, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

So Caliphate. Such Wales. Much ASB wow doge.

18:11, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

GUYS, can we just get this organized? I swear, the Soviet Union was better off then this.

I believe Lx claimed Novgorod. Out of tradition we should respect this claim.

21:09, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Numerous parts of Eastern Europe seem to be missing from the list. For example, I don't see Poland-Lithuania or Moldova anywhere. 77topaz (talk) 23:42, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

The nation list is not complete. This page is under construction. Mscoree (talk) 23:44, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Mmmm... a Labelled map please. because france is certainly causing some confusion to me. 0.o to many states and idk for sure which ones i control. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 00:23, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

Once the official map is done and colored, a labeled map will likely follow. Mscoree (talk) 00:29, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

@Oct, My apologies, I took information from the wrong source.

@Everyone else, I'm creating the nations list as I work trough what is on the map and what isn't, the map is slightly larger and much more complex this time around with the borders completely accurate to the start of the 15th century. A labelled map will follow the completion of the game map to my satisfaction. Scandinator (talk) 04:43, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

The Luxembourg states have their own section, but Luxembourg also appears in the main HRE list; and, Limburg appears twice in the HRE list. 77topaz (talk) 05:43, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

Scandinator, why you do this? Mscoree (talk) 15:49, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

The extra Luxembourg section should be removed (it is superfluous now) and Millgy's stuff should be moved around to the new section(s). 77topaz (talk) 19:56, December 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Consider it done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:32, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was halfway through cleaning the HRE list... Its a nightmare. Scandinator (talk) 14:04, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * What did i do wrong? I just took off the Luxembourg-ruled states section, seeing that all of the states already had a counterpart in the rest of the list.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:54, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

My Opinion on Yall (Holding Nothing Back)
My Opinion on All of You

Where the hell am  I on that list? Spartian300 (talk) 13:48, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Sicily
I saw the discussion on Sicily's status.But, to clarify, since we can't use the sign-ups list to do that:

According to Feudalplague: "Dynastic union means owned as far i know.. that means Aragon pretty much owns Sicily"

Sine replied with: "Not quite, Otherwise Half of france would already be mine lol) Personal Union does mean Aragon Owns Sicily. Else means that if Sicily's king dies it means Aragon may take over it. or that Aragon and Sicily are allied or just Sicily is under its influence."

According to Scan: "Dynastic Union means the two nations are governed by two different people that are related somehow, it meant almost squat in European politics though"

However, i noticed that Sicily is a different case.in 1400, the Sicilian monarch is, who will rule until 1401 in OTL.of course, after 1400 anything can happen here, but, as of 1440, Maria is married to and as of 1 January 1400, has a heir,, that in OTL will die between August and November 1400.However, Martin of Sicily is the heir of the King of Aragon, , who in OTL became King of Sicily in 1409..Okay, all of this looks like unnecessary exposition, but: This is a case where the Dynastic Union will lead to a Personal Union in a few years, regardless of what happens (Maria of Sicily is the last legitimate scion of her branch of the House of Barcelona, and niece of Martin of Aragon, so even if the heirs do not survive, Sicily falls back into Aragon anyway.).So,what should we do?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:11, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Spartian300 (talk) 13:45, January 1, 2014 (UTC)Let the Papal States turned it into a Vassal. It's the only solution.

I didn't understand.I have done this section because DatStar is selecting Sicily, but, if he keeps his choice, he will have no nation to play with, as Aragon and Sicily will fall into personal union relatively soon.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:55, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Peter died in an accident. ATL he will likely survive as most 2 years dont get spears through the head as a cause of death. Thus Sicily can remain independent from Aragon. Scandinator (talk) 14:07, January 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * What i was saying is that regardless of his survival, Sicily will enter a personal union under Aragon.After all, he is his father's only heir, and said father is also the only heir of Peter's grandfather.So, if Peter dies, as soon as Martin of Aragon dies, Martin of Sicily becomes king of Aragon, and when Martin of Sicily dies, Peter becomes King of Aragon and Sicily.Considering that Martin is 44 years old in 1400.And if Peter dies, Martin of Sicily most likely will become King of Aragon and Sicily anyway. So, Sicily will have a very short run as a independent state on this game (no more than 30 years, probably).And i don't know what should be done in this case.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:42, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Should we  start the game now? It IS January 1st. - Spartian
 * Not yet.Neither the map nor the rules are ready.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:42, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

So in conclusion the nation of Sicily is open for someone to play as it, however their playtime may be cut short by Aragon taking them over. Mscoree (talk) 14:29, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was Spartian who asked that. Mscoree (talk) 16:10, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Don't bother asking me; I'd be biased in such a situation, but Martin of Aragon has no direct heirs, so really it has to go to them (Sicilian monarchs) sooner or later after which they are in union.

18:40, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Martin's only heir is married to the Sicilian queen and will keep the throne in case of her death.Anyway, I am trying to figure out whether i should advise DatStar to move to another nation, since Sicily is not going to last too long.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:46, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Choosing a nation
I chose Ming-China yesterday, but today I look again and Scandiator erased my name and put his name there, did he reserved it or something? Some clarity please.

Mr YOLO (talk) 15:43, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

I told you on your talk page.Scan claimed China officially two days before you, and had claimed it unofficially three months ago.However, you didn't see it because he was reworking the nations list at the time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:47, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed.

18:36, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I understand. I will pick another nation.Mr YOLO (talk) 08:13, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yo!
Hey guys! I think I'm having a good timing on returning, eh? :P Wondering if anyone still remembers me. o.O Lots of new faces.  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 16:12, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

You do realize those new faces find this creepy?Spartian300 (talk) 16:33, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Creepy is my profession. ;)  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 16:38, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

I see the Doc is back in town. ;)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:50, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Imp, Indeed. ^.^  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 17:35, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Just shut up, dear God, I feel like I'm Griff from Red vs Blue.

Spartian300 (talk) 16:33, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Sign your posts Spartian, as per regulation.

And don't be rude.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. "

Good old brotherhood sense. Love you guys!  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 18:05, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Look at Spartan, thinking he is an important user, swaggering around like his 171 edits mean something. Welcome back Doc, just hang around this time round lol. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:36, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Good to see you back, but this is not the place for this conversation. CourageousLife (talk) 18:37, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

^ thats how i feel about this conversation.Spartian300 (talk) 18:43, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Spartian,



That's new.I don't think i ever saw a player making trouble before the game even starts.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:43, January 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * ^ Where on earth is this side of Collie? I would like to see this side of Collie more often please ;) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:06, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Wosshappening here??
Woah! I guess the vote was a success... but I can't make heads or tails of what happened! Someone want to fill me in?

Also, can I say that it's not really fair that the votes were carried out over break? I, for one could not post. I don't really care about myself, the modships look alright, but there were many users who could not post.

22:00, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Also, didn't Lx claim Novgorod?

23:27, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

No. Mscoree (talk) 23:33, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

Well that expressed worlds, and those worlds better not be the worlds I think they are, or else, you sir are in for a world of hurt.

23:37, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

The nations list is still under construction, and there are claims all over the place. 77topaz (talk) 23:57, January 1, 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about other worlds. Those too though.

At this point, I need to drop that metaphor.

00:02, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

A Question
Forgive me for being an ignorant newbie, but what do the dark gray states mean on the map? Is the meaning different from PMII (fragmented)? Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Hi Bfo, good to see that you are back! Dark gray states are still fragmented as they were in PMII. This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 01:41, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yup, rejoined at just the right time. Was worrying about missing the PMIII bandwagon. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Hey!
So I thought that since I finally had access to the Internet for the first time in ages, I'd check out what had happened on PMII. Well, boy was I in for a surprise! Anyway, since PMIII is going ahead, I just want to Briefly say a few things. Firstly, the current working map is really very nice; the German Kleinstaaterei are much more accurately portrayed this time around. Secondly, seeing as we aren't meant to edit the German States section, I'll use this page to advertise the fact that I (un)officially claimed the County of Oldenburg on the PMII talk page, and fervently wish to play as that state this game. My final point is that I don't think the "Australian Aborigines" should be a playable nation. I think that the whole Koori Union thing really took away a lot of PMII's plausibility. The simple fact of the matter is that the Aborigines (through no fault of their own) simply did not have any domesticable animals or plants (or oftentimes enough water) to independently create a state-based agricultural civilisation. That's not to say that someone couldn't play as one of the individual tribes and carve out a regional kingdom. So that's all I have to say, I'll be back to normal activity in about five days. Callumthered (talk) 09:59, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't need domesticable plants or animals to establish a state. The Comanche relied on buffalo while the Tonga relied on fish. All you need is a food source, and if the Aborigines run across southeastern Australia, then they can find some type of food source to use to feed their people. If not, then there is always the sea. A nation-state isn't a simplistic "Option A" or "Option B" thing. It can be established under any circumstances regardless of environment. The Inuit could have established their own nation, but they lack the will and motive, as well as communication over vast distances. Same with the Aborigines. They need a reason first, then everything else comes after. Finding and exploiting a stable food source could be the business of such a government. As time passes and need increases, it could begin to stretch out its responsibilities to grow into a nation-state one would recognize, should as developing a standing army to end disputes between tribes, a common currency for easier trading, and a system of laws that could be enforced in all tribes so that travelers need not adapt themselves to the customs of a foreign tribe. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:51, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah it was a bit of a mess. As for the Aborigines, I don't think we should strike them from the playable list just because of the Koori Union. You can plausibly build something there if you want, just not as quickly as some would like. I actually gave some thought to playing as the Papuans myself  this go-round (not much, but thought about it). Plus, the Selk'nam were in about the same shape as the Aborigines when I started with them and I was able to semi-plausibly ramp them up based on interaction with neighboring colonies. It's a bit of a strech, but if you really wanted to, you could spend a few hundred years domesticating wallabies (Roos might be a stretch) and staging some sort of Neolithic Revolution in what is now Victoria - or wait until post colonizatin and adopt technology from the colonists. Anyone who is crazy enough to play there would be very heavily supervised, and in that particular region we have a good number of self-proclaimed Australians palying the game who could help regulate it (that and I do quite a lot of Australian-related stuff myself). But I think we should leave tribal options open for those who want to hack it. Commandante Lemming (talk) 16:06, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Category
Is there a reason why Lordganon changed the "Principia Moderni III" category to "Principia Moderni III map game"? It's been an unofficial rule that game categories are specifically not named that, and games have been renamed from it in the past. Unless Lordganon wants to rename basically thousands of items, I advise against this move. Mscoree (talk) 15:14, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

The Principia Moderni category was agreed to only be put on the (hasn't happened yet) timeline version. Same with PMII. And I think it will be the case with PMIII. It has always happened, so I am not sure what you are talking about Ms, sorry. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:04, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about, but PM2, PM, and PM3 until now all did not have "map game" in the title. Neither has pretty much any other map game that did it correctly (a few examples: NotLAH, AvA, and all its other games in the series) Mscoree (talk) 19:13, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Where?
Where is my beautiful Hungary? :'(  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:09, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

The map isn't done yet. Mscoree (talk) 19:14, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Well, Hungary is on the map, at least.However, it still isn't in the sign-ups list.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:23, January 2, 2014 (UTC)