Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3
 * Archive 4
 * Archive 5

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Modifiers: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Modifiers: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 0/0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

The Tartary's Siberian territories have been expanded by 18500 square kilometres since the 1492 turn. Please add. Also, Bfox's African colony seems to have deleted, but I don't know what that is. Fed (talk) 22:14, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Please make Vorlayacor approximately 1/2 the size of the old Mapuche territory; as of right now, it's so small as to be hardly even noticable. IhaveSonar (talk) 19:24, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
If you want to update the map, please list the changes you've made in the Notes section, along with your signature; this enables me to update the color key and change log accordingly, preventing confusion for readers. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:58, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

The map is now up to date for 1475. TankOfMidgets (talk) 19:48, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

All regions are shown according to their plurality religion.

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in gold, and Catholic states whose churches function independently of the Roman Church are shown in pale yellow. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Reformism is red. Sunni Islam is lime green, Shia Islam is forest green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green, Assafi Islam is bright green, and Paganistic Islam is mint green. The Mastorava is teal blue, Hinduism is sky blue, and Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink. Other religions will be added as needed.

Notes Issues and Discussion
 * Added coloration for the Mastorava, Assafi, and Paganist-Islam sects.
 * Switched pale yellow from Sedevacantist to independent-Catholic.
 * Venice is still "Catholic" for the time being, but it will be shown as independent-Catholic when the Venetian player announces that his church takes orders from him instead of Rome.
 * Ayutthaya and its vassals are now Buddhist.
 * Tartary and its vassals are now Mastoravic.

Spain has expanded in south africa, and buenos aires, has expanded kongo, and Morocco, and has conquered part of the Mayans. Please add this to the map MS

Scratch the mayans being partly conquered, they were outright conquered. Also Mapuche were taken by Spain, and their color needs to be moved to OTL Sau Paulo in Brazil as im moving them since me and Sonar are at an understanding. -Feud



Mod Event Grievances
Just so that it doesn't clutter the page, please post your mod event questions, comments and grievances here. This -should- be archived every five years.

1485

 * These Batman events are not funny and don't seem to be contributing a single thing to the game that can't be achieved through actual creative/original events. Cookiedamage (talk) 01:06, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^ Exactly. You're not being funny, all you're doing is making this game implausible. I mean, FFS, WE HAVE A GOTHAM.  01:14, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think they're being made to be funny or implausible, they're just creative/original events. Gotham, from what Andrew tells me, if a plausible name for an English town. Keep in mind though that Gotham has nothing to do with Balthasar, and he just made that in his turn, not a moderator event. From what I've seen they've actually contributed a lot to the game, progressing actual major events, like wars. Mscoree (talk) 01:39, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Events aren't made to amuse you. If you don't like them just don't read them, but the events themselves serve a purpose in the area. You can't remove an event just because it affects your area and you don't like it. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk)
 * It doesn't affect me. And seriously if you want to serve a purpose is it possible to actually create mod events instead of create derivitive, implausible events?Cookiedamage (talk) 02:17, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * No one will answer my question of what's implausible. Assume they weren't named similarly to Batman, then what? You'd notice that the events are actual events that create a lot of tension and circumstances in Germany. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk)
 * It doesn't matter, this problem has already been resolved. Mscoree (talk) 13:50, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * By deleting them and making ACTUAL events?  21:17, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

=General Discussion=

Australian Aboriginal Tribes
European nations were not allowed to come into contact with the Aborigines of Australia until the 18th Century, this made Australia pretty much undiscovered. I think the Aboriginal tribes were controlled by moderators by now, which is why most of Australia is black which I think signifies unexplored areas. Now unlike the Europeans, the Aborigines however do know a little about Australia and where what tribe is settled so would it be possible for me to utilize this map of Australia? (I'll edit it so as to unite the northern tribes into Marrikuwuyanga)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cfphle&s=8

- RexImperio (talk) 10:56, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Black signifies areas which are in a tribal, non-state-like form of government, as the Aboriginal groups were prior to European colonisation. You'll notice that on the map, the Marrikuwuyanga are light grey, to signify that (thanks to mod events) they are essentially an organised, state-style government (although still quite underdeveloped). After you've played as the Marrikuwuyanga for a while, it will be coloured in a distinctive colour to show that it is a player-controlled nation. You'll notice that around where Sydney is otl, there is a dark grey section of land which represents the Tharawal, who are semi-organised, but still essentially tribal.

A much better and more accurate map is this one from the ABC's Indigenous site.

Oh, and in future, please sign posts on the talk page by leaving four ~ in a row (or pressing the "Signature" button in the top panel). Callumthered (talk) 10:11, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Edited in my signature + thank you -RexImperio (talk) 10:56, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

Hungary
Result: 87
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 7
 * Nations: Hungary (L), Poland (MV), Croatia (MV): 9/3 = 3
 * Military: 20/3: +7
 * Economy: +20 +15 (Much larger economy, Larger Trading Empire): 35/3 = +12
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +6 +4 + 5: 10
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count: 10,213
 * UTC Time: 00:40 = 4
 * (10,213/4) * pi = 8021.27144278
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 27
 * Participation: 10
 * Number of troops: 55,000/10,000 = 5.5 = 6

Banu Sulaym
Result: 28
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 + 2 (being invaded from the sea, open ground)
 * Nations: Banu Sulaym (L) = 5
 * Military: 3/20 = 0
 * Economy: 3/20 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +9 -5: 4
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6 (no more than 500k)
 * Participation: 10
 * Number of troops: 10,000/55,000 = 0

Result
((87/(87+28))*2) - 1 = 8

Hungarian Victory. Hungary can claim 8% in their war against Banu Sulaym.. They can burn. It will take  years to tumble them:

*(1-1/(2(12))) =

Due to negotiations with Alexandria, lands shall be transferred to the nation in the east as per this map.

Discussion
Negotiation, not "negociation".

Also, "they can burn"?

The Anon Grammar Nazi Who is certainly NOT Guns

Don't like em. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:35, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Really? You seemed so friendly towards them! (This is sarcasm).

22:57, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

No two motives over 5 are allowed. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:56, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Both sides only have one nation. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

20:58, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Nevermind. I think I understand. But to avod fuure confusion, they should be labelled, instead of just numbers. (Like what are your goals). There are some problems with the algorythm that I'm tweaking, but he should still be able to conquer them. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:08, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Impo, Modifiers are a seperate section than motive- look at the rules.

21:23, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

The war will not be taking 12 years, nor will Banu Sulaym have *1.5 - the first revolt happened 25 years ago. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:38, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

12 year war between a major regional power and a bunch of disorganized rebels who have no serious weaponry (like artillery, etc).

2/10 would not call plausible.

(Also, before you draw up comparizons to the Vietnam war, the Viet Cong and the NVA were heavily armed, outnumbered the US troops, were extremely well organized, had huge amounts of popular support, knew how to fight in the terrain, and were supported by the OTHER major world power).

22:50, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

Resignation
Sorry everyone, I have not been able to post for the last week or so due to an illness in the family, and with exams and everything coming up I do not have the time to post. I think it is best that I take time off and resign from the game. I will probably be able to come back in about 50 turns or so, as a different country of course.

I have one request: please do not chew up and spit the Ottoman Empire up in less than a decade. The Ottomans at this time were at a high point in their political and territorial influence, and it is unfortunate that I will have to miss out on this. Obviously they're destined to fall, but at least try to be plausible about it (I remember my nation was taken over in less than one turn last game, lol.)

Hope to be back soon. Good luck to everyone in Arabia, may you give the Europeans a hard time--just don't attempt to create another Caliphate ;)

ChrisL123 (talk) 02:58, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Oh no, Chris :(

I hope you're back soon, and I wish you good luck. Fed (talk) 03:03, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Ahh, pity. See you next time. I recommend something in India or SE Asia, it's amazing.

22:07, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Bye Chris! Cour *talk* 23:00, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

France

 * Location: close the location of the war +4
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege equipment +5
 * Nation Per Side: France (L), Africa(LV), Sardinia (MV)= 9/5 = 1.8 - 2
 * Military development: +20/7 = 2.85 =+3
 * Economic: +20/7 = 2.85 = +3
 * Motive: Attacking to enforce political Hegemony +11 (Non demo,supported by people)
 * Chance:6
 * Edit count 2445
 * 2443/10: 188.0769
 * 188.0769*pi :590.861
 * Nation age:+5
 * Population:+28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 200.000/ 40.000 = 5
 * Total: 82

Tunisia

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +3 Fortifications?
 * Nation Per Side: Tunisia (L) = 5/13 = 0
 * Military development: +7/20 = 0
 * Economic: +7/20 = 0
 * Infrastructure +7
 * Motive: Defending from total annihilation +10
 * Chance:1
 * Nation age:+0
 * Population :+6
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 40.000/200.000 = 0
 * Total:42

Result

 * If this is alright (Which i'm dubious of) i should get 32% which added to the 18% i got from tunisia last time should mean 50% and allow me to topple the tunisian hafsid government, which means that the wars of north africa are over with me lol!

Discussion
Anything?? Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 04:31, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

Grats Sine. You deserve it after 3 whole wars. Just wait until the next round of Jihad is declared, lol. 07:35, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

Attacker (Marrikuwuyanga Empire)
Total: 163
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Nations: Marrikuwuyanga (L), Ayutthaya (M) = 8/5 = 1.6 ~= +2
 * Military Development: 24/12 = +2
 * Economic Development: +12
 * Economic Bonus: -2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +119
 * Edit Count: 38
 * UTC: 10:11(1*1*1)
 * Total: 38/1*3.14 = +119
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 5 (40 000) +2 = +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 1800/180 = +10 (800 Marrikuwuyanga, 1000 Ayutthaya)
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Defender (Yolngu)
Total: 54
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Yolngu (L) = 5/8 = 0.6 ~= 1
 * Military Development: 12/24 = 0.5 ~= +1
 * Economic Development: +14
 * Economic Bonus: +5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +7
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 0
 * UTC: 0
 * Total: 0
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +4 (9000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 180/1800 = 0.1 ~= 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
((163/(163+54)*2)-1 = 0.5023 %

So basically 50.23% of Yolngu territory is conquered. The state soon collapses and is declared part of the Marrikuwuyanga Empire

War lasts for 2 years in which Marrikuwuyanga conquers 37% of Yolngu territory

Discussion
Anything wrong?

http://www.abc.net.au/indigenous/map/

This is the Aboriginal Australian Map All of Australia North [Including Tiwi] is under Marrikuwuyanga control. In Arnhem, the following states are NOT under Marrikuwuyanga control

Reximperio
 * Nunggubuyu
 * Ngalakan
 * Dangbon
 * Rembarnga
 * Ngandi
 * Ngalkbun
 * Wardilninyakwa

Troop numbers seem a bit low.

Please write in what motive and modifiers you're giving yourself and your opponent (also, modifiers and motive are different sections).

Apart from that, looks good- but I'm not a mod.

23:29, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

I think the troop numbers are probably about right. Remember the tribes they are fighting are stone-age bands (I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it's just a fact). Callumthered (talk) 02:06, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Exponential population growth
After some random discussion on the chat, I wanted to know what formula is used to determine the growth of population.

I mean, it could increase by a few percent every year, but as far as I know it should be this

Pt=P0*e^(r*t)

With Pt being the current population

P0 starting one

e being... well e

r growth per year

and t being time.

I wish to ask the mods, what is the % of r for nations?

Sky Green 24 15:15, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

Depends on the nation and the time period.

Any algo for population would be either very innacurate or ridiculously complex, so I don't think there's any point.

The mods will correct implausible population growth. Think about 1% for this time period (not counting additions, of course- for instance, my nation has expanded quite a bit over the last 40 years, which is why it's population has doubled.

23:23, May 9, 2014 (UTC)

ASB Mod Event
My sultan did denounce Christianity in 1497. So can you cross out this event for 1498.Since the assassination of my leader the new leader went to fix the proble and put things back to normal in my country. - Scarlet

Even if you did happen to denounce Christianity in your nation, the Muslim zealots would still be infuriated by your alleged freedom and tolerance for the heathens. Upon further inspection however it's clear that you never actually did denounce Christianity, in fact in the turn right after the assassination you claimed you were converting to Orthodox. Mscoree (talk) 14:54, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

They wouldn't be infuriated by tolerance because jizya, but Ms is right. 201.233.153.178 15:43, May 10, 2014 (UTC) ^That was me. Fed (talk) 15:46, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fed, he removed Jizya, that is what I was talking about when I said he was giving greater freedom to the them. Mscoree (talk) 19:35, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Castile
Location:  +2


 * Castile: 2


 * Aragon: 2

Attacker: Nations Per Side on the War: +5 Military Development ​Economic Locations Bonus: +9 Economic Bonus Expansion N/A
 * Seige Equipment: 5
 * Castile (L) Aragon (L) 10/2
 * Castile: 20 Aragon: 20= +40/6 = +7
 * Castile: 20 Aragon: 20 = +55/6 = +10
 * Economic bonus +15
 * +5
 * Straits of Gibraltar
 * +2
 * −Seville (Castile)
 * −Barcelona
 * Much Larger Economy +10 Castile, Aragon
 * Larger Trade Colonial Empire +5: Castile, Aragon

Motive Chance Nation Age Population  +8 Participation  +10
 * Attacking to enforce political hegemony: +7 (Castile)
 * Aiding Ally (+3) =
 * Modifiers:
 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 8
 * Edit count=x
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=y
 * x/y*pi=z
 * Chance=Hundredth place of z
 * Castile: +0
 * Aragon: +0
 * +2 less than 5 times

Recent Wars: N/A

Number of Troops: +0 Total: 76
 * 12,300 / 25,000 =
 * Castile: 12,000 (Includes recruited auxilaries)
 * Aragon: 300

Mayans
Location:

Defender:
 * +5

Nations per side: Mil development: 
 * +2 (high ground ambush)
 * Maya: +5

Econ Dev:
 * +12/2 = +6/40= 0

Infra Dev: Expansion: N/A
 *  12/2 = +6/55 = 0
 * -2 (smaller economy)
 * +8/2 = +4

Motive: +9 (they are being conquered lol) Nation Age: 
 * Non dem supported +5

Population: +7
 * Antique nation (-15)

Participation: +10

Troops:  Total: 34
 * 25,000/12,300 = +2

Discussion
((76/(34+76))*2)-1 = 0.3818181818181818

(38.18%)*(1-1/(2*4)) 0.334075 = 33%

Mayans lose resoundingly and Castile conquers them

I have a question.. Doesn't the defender get location bonus? Because the attacker got location bonus in this one. Also, is it possible to develop both Military and Economy in one turn because I have been developing my Military only - RexImperio

German Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 92
 * Location 3
 * Hamburg: 5
 * Magdeburg: 3
 * Bavaria: 2
 * Trier: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * Nations: Hamburg (L5), Mecklenburg (L5), Magdeburg (LV3), Bavaria (L5) Munich (LV3), Wurzburg (LV3), Trier (L5), Julich (LV3), Zweibrücken (LV3), Brandenburg (LV3), Bohemia (L5), Silesia (LV3), = 46/8 = 6
 * Military dev: 240/260 = 0
 * Hamburg: 20
 * Mecklenburg: 20
 * Magdeburg: 20
 * Bavaria: 20
 * Trier: 20
 * Munich: 20
 * Wurzburg: 20
 * Brandenburg: 20
 * Silesia: 20
 * Bohemia: 20
 * Zweibrücken: 20
 * Silesia: 20
 * Julich: 20
 * Econ dev: 240/140 = 2
 * Zweibrücken: 20
 * Silesia: 20
 * Julich: 20
 * Hamburg: 20
 * Mecklenburg: 20
 * Magdeburg: 20
 * Bavaria: 20
 * Trier: 20
 * Munich: 20
 * Wurzburg: 20
 * Brandenburg: 20
 * Bohemia: 20
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +55
 * Hamburg: 7+4
 * Mecklenburg: 5
 * Magdeburg: 5
 * Bavaria: 3+4
 * Trier: 3+4
 * Munich: 3
 * Wurzburg: 3
 * Brandenburg: 3
 * Bohemia: 3
 * Zweibrücken: 3
 * Silesia: 3
 * Julich: 3
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age: 2
 * Hamburg: 0
 * Mecklenburg: 0
 * Magdeburg: 0
 * Bavaria: 5 (unified 1415)
 * Trier: 0
 * Munich: 0
 * Wurzburg: 0
 * Julich: 5
 * Zweibrücken: 5
 * Brandenburg: 0
 * Bohemia: 5
 * Silesia: 5
 * Population: 7
 * Recent wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Troops: 115,300/60,000 = 2
 * 20,000 from Hamburg and Mecklenburg
 * 5,000 from Magdeburg
 * 10,000 from Trier
 * 30,000 from Bavaria
 * 1,300 volunteers from Buxtehude
 * 3,000 lansquenets from the Luneburg area
 * Black Guard, numbering 6,000
 * 20,000 from Brandenburg
 * 20,000 from Bohemia

Russian Coalition (Attacker, Russian front)

 * Location: 4
 * Pskov: 5
 * Novgorod: 5
 * Lithuania: 4
 * Ukraine: 4
 * Tver: 4
 * Yaroslavl: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * Nations: Pskov (L), Novgorod (L), Lithuania (LV), Ukraine (LV), Tver (LV), Yaroslavl (LV) = 20/14= 1
 * Military dev: 120/20 = 6
 * Pskov: 20
 * Novgorod: 20
 * Lithuania: 20
 * Ukraine: 20
 * Tver: 20
 * Yaroslavl: 20
 * Econ dev: 120/20 = 6+1=7
 * Pskov: 20
 * Novgorod: 20
 * Lithuania: 20
 * Ukraine: 20
 * Tver: 20
 * Yaroslavl: 20
 * Motive: 5
 * Pskov: 7+4
 * Novgorod: 3+4
 * Muscovy: 3+4
 * Lithuania: 3
 * Ukraine: 3
 * Tver: 3
 * Yaroslavl: 3
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age: 2
 * Pskov: 5
 * Novgorod: 5
 * Lithuania: 0
 * Ukraine: -5
 * Tver: 5
 * Yaroslavl: 0
 * Motive: 6
 * Pskov: 3+4
 * Novgorod: 7+4
 * Lithuania: 3
 * Ukraine: 3
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Troops: 50,000/20,000 = 3

Total: 58

Scandinavia (Defender)

 * Location: 3
 * Nations: Scandinavia (L), Schleswig (LV), Leubeck (LV), Bremen (LV), Albion (L), Scotland (MV), Wales (MV), Brittany (MV), Netherlands (L), Prussia (L), Courland (LV), Ossel-Wiek (LV), Eire (LV) = 38/13 = +3
 * Military dev: 260, 1
 * Scandinavia: 20
 * Schleswig: 20
 * Leubeck: 20
 * Bremen: 20
 * Netherlands: 20
 * Prussia: 40
 * Courland: 40
 * Ossel-Wiek: 40
 * Albion: 20
 * Eire: 20
 * Economic dev: 140, 0 (Albion and netherlands are added, Prussia is too cool for economic dev)
 * (Sorry their scores were never posted -Feud)
 * Motive: +59
 * Scandinavia: 5 +4
 * Schleswig: 5
 * Leubeck: 5
 * Bremen: 10
 * Netherlands: 3
 * Prussia: 3 +4
 * Courland: 3
 * Ossel-Wiek: 3
 * Albion: 3 +4
 * Eire: 3 +4
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age: -2
 * Scandinavia: 0
 * Schleswig: -5 (founded 1058)
 * Leubeck: 0 (independence in 1226)
 * Bremen: -5 (founded 1180)
 * Population: 7
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Theaters of war: -5
 * Troops: 60,000 (Disputed)
 * Troops: +35,200
 * 25,000 from Prussia (half of army, other half sent to Russia)
 * 10,000 from Hungary
 * 200 from Roman Empire
 * Total: 79

(For Russian front) Please note I did not include the Scandinavian vassals, reasons below
 * Nations: Scandinavia (L), Prussia (L), Courland (LV), Ossel-Wiek (LV) = 14
 * Military dev: 140, 0
 * Econ dev: 20, 3
 * Motive: 14
 * Scandinavia: 5
 * Prussia: 3
 * Courland: 3
 * Ossel-Wiek: 3
 * Nation Age: (again, all 0s)
 * Participation: +10
 * Troops: +25,000 from Prussia and co. added to what ever plausible sized army is at the front.
 * Total: +42

Result
Do we need to do the equation?

Discussion
Sorry but the Russians may not join this war, they would need to wage their own war on Scandinavia and as they are 1. Russian and this is an HRE war not a Russian one. 2. They are located on the Eurasion front and not the Eastern European front. Russian forces would need their own algo against scandinavia as well as their own war. This is non negotiable.

I believe that this war isn't separate. We declared war as a direct result of the war in Germany to aid our allies against a mutual enemy. I don't see why we would make a separate algorithm. We basically made two and put it in one, using the new fronts system that you yourself pioneered. If you don't want us to use that then remove it from the rules, but we will follow the rules and use the front system. Fritzmet (talk) 22:09, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

For one, 10,000 troops are coming from Hungary - so less points there. Plus, Hungary will be an (M) too, so this algo needs to be changed. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:30, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Two algos are definitely necessary. ~Fed, whose internet is acting up and logging in is nightmarish

England, Scotland, Wales, Dublin, Brittany the Kingdom of the Eire and the French vassals of Burgundy and Loirraine are in, if you could add them to the algoALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!! 22:35, May 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Due to deliberating, Albion should not be added to the algo just yet. Cookiedamage (talk) 23:22, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

the netherlands are also joining as leaders on scandinavias side. With Blood and Iron (talk) 22:50, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Not that I'm involved, but we need to define "non-lethal". As the one who wrote that motive section, I meant that the difference between the scores is less than the lower value. To put it in another sense, winner/loser is less than one.

Course, I defer to Feud here.

23:51, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Is it really possible for Scandinavia's vassals to send support to the Russian front? And why are they listed as fives and fours when their capitals (including Scandinavia's) are a thousand miles away? It's also impossible for Scandinavia to send 50,000 to both fronts, let alone 60 or 70. Scandinavia also clearly has four vassals, and Bremen should at most be 9, not 10. Also, what's with all these 5 motives when at most they should be three?

I haven't got to the Russian algorithm yet, as that may be removed, but I fixed some things in the German one. Mscoree (talk) 00:25, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Burn Scandanavia. Bring back the UNC.

Also, burn Hamburg. I've done it twice, I figure third times the charm.

00:36, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

After much delibration I have decided to declare my full support for Scandinavia. Both military and supplies. I also beleive Eire will also support me in this solemn endeveour. ALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!! 01:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

^So Albion would under (M) and (S)? Cookiedamage (talk) 01:21, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

M all vassals I can put in without penalty are also MALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!!

Let's start out by saying that Ms deserves to be impeached for starting this powder keg when he not only knew that one of his cronies wanted to attack me, but for subsequently having nations under his own watch (Brandenburg and Bohemia) attack me. Ms is a corrupt mod. I have pointed this out time and again. Not sure why other people haven't listened to me. Secondly, the other nations on my side need to be added. Andrew said that Albion, Wales, Scotland, and Brittany are supporting me against the Germans. Netherlands and all of her vassals have declared war as well. Prussia and Mazonia also need to be added. All of these guys are leaders. Hungary is aiding me with troops, as is the Byzantine Empire. There are the sides of the war. Sigh... Bananananananana BAT-CRIM 03:02, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

MS didn't start anything. He made an event that was later removed anyway, so its involvement is irrelevant. Austria isn't even involved, nor are his "cronies" (although every time you disagree with someone that definition grows). Based on the behavior I've seen from you this evening I'm not sure who the real bad mod is. You spent all this time insulting, harassing, and "acting drunken", to the point where Feud and everyone else in chat had to ask you to stop. And now the algorithm is locked for the night until you can calm down thanks to your immature behavior. Overall this is not the behavior I'd expect from a moderator, let alone an admin, and I recommend you spend the time this algorithm is locked to actually take a step back from things, lest you make things even worse for yourself. Fritzmet (talk) 03:09, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

^^ Plus Albion's support and the Neth. will be added tomorrow. Cookiedamage (talk) 03:11, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Note how I said Brandenburg and Bohemia. Not Austria. I don't think you know what I mean by cronies. As explained MANY TIMES, they are people who follow Ms constantly, not people I disagree with. I spent absolutely zero time harassing anybody. The sorts of insults I flung were, to be honest, earned and deserved due to peoples' inability to actually read. If you think that was bad, you are not going to like LG. I was, to be honest, being an ass. The algorithm is locked because Ms is biased and you people think I'm biased. It's to prevent a shitstorm. If you would read into a situation instead of just scratch the surface, you would know this. I know your reading comprehension is not top-notch, however, so I'll sum it up. Fritz, you're wrong about everything that you said. Bananananananana BAT-CRIM 03:22, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

There's literally no point in arguing with you when you try to justify rude, insultive behaviour as well as trying to get us to believe you're not biased. Cookiedamage (talk) 03:30, May 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Here we go again, but whatever. Here feud I saved you some trouble:
 * (for German front)
 * Nations: Scandinavia (L), Schleswig (LV), Leubeck (LV), Bremen (LV), Albion (M), Scotland (MV), Wales (MV), Brittany (MV), Netherlands (L), Prussia (L), Courland (LV), Ossel-Wiek (LV) = 34 -12 (six vassals) = 22, 0
 * Military dev: 220, 0
 * Scandinavia: 20
 * Schleswig: 20
 * Leubeck: 20
 * Bremen: 20
 * Netherlands: 20
 * Prussia: 40
 * Courland: 40
 * Ossel-Wiek: 40
 * Economic dev: 100, 0 (just Netherlands is added, Prussia is too cool for economic dev)
 * Motive: 5
 * Scandinavia: 5
 * Schleswig: 5
 * Leubeck: 5
 * Bremen: 10
 * Netherlands: 3
 * Prussia: 3
 * Courland: 3
 * Ossel-Wiek: 3
 * Nation age: (I believe they're all 0s)
 * Troops: +35,200
 * 25,000 from Prussia (half of army, other half sent to Russia)
 * 10,000 from Hungary
 * 200 from Roman Empire
 * (for Russian front) please note I did not include the Scandinavian vassals, reasons below
 * Nations: Scandinavia (L), Prussia (L), Courland (LV), Ossel-Wiek (LV) = 16, 0
 * Military dev: 140, 0
 * Econ dev: 20
 * Motive: 4
 * Scandinavia: 5
 * Prussia: 3
 * Courland: 3
 * Ossel-Wiek: 3
 * Nation Age: (again, all 0s)
 * Troops: +25,000 from Prussia and co. added to what ever plausible sized army is at the front.
 * First, I would like to point out the implausibility associated with Crims vassals, currently being invaded, sending support to the Russian front.
 * Second, I would like to point out Prussia is now also fighting a two-front war, as they are fighting both Brandenburg and the Russian states.
 * Third, there's almost no possible way Crim can have 70,000 troops fight on the Russian front. His entire army might, and that's a big might, be 70,000 strong, which comes out to around 3% of a population of 2.5 million, which I doubt Scandinavia has. The prospect of using the entire army numbers for a single front, when it can't possible accomplish, is insane.

albion also joined the war this turn so they also need to be addedWith Blood and Iron (talk) 10:53, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sending 10 dragons to aid Scandinavia, +10 for each dragon (jk). But as far as I've read on the 1498 turn, Novgorod is attacking to aid Hamburg (Motive: Aiding an ally), which doesn't really seem like a good reason to break a treaty. But anyways, another thing is that I don't see why the rest of Russia would suddenly rush to aid Novgorod in aiding Hamburg. And furthremore, Scandinavia is in some trade/military alliance with Albion and Netherlands. So no matter how the war ends most Russian nations would have issues when it comes to trading with the west. I just think it's a fool's move to do what they are doing Sky Green 24 11:26, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Um Akbion should be a leader as well, I have a vested interest in retaining the status quoALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!! 16:25, May 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * You just said you're sending military aid.
 * ^^ Sending military aid and/pr declaring support does not make you a leader in a war. Cookiedamage (talk) 16:45, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Let him do what he wants with his nation. Also, add in Azov and Perm, as it seems Fritz's deal does NOT include vassal states. Fed (talk) 16:45, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

We're not going to randomly add Albion to leader status when he has not explicitly declared war. What that is is essentially manipulating the algo based on decisions said in chat or on talk pages. So no, he cannot just do what he wants with his nation unless he details it on the main page first. Cookiedamage (talk) 16:48, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Novgorod isn't just aiding an ally. Their primary motive is taking back lost territory. Tr0llis (talk) 16:49, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Bah ok, this is muh more calmALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!!

KARMA, BITCH!

Told you to keep calling it the UNC.

Oh, no!

Hehehehehe

21:08, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Ayutthaya (Attacker)
Total: 94
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (siege weaponry, I've talked about it each turn since, like, 1485)
 * Nations: Ayutthaya (L), The Majapahit (LV), Siak (LV), Holland (M) = 14/5 = 3
 * Military Development: 52/4 = 13
 * Ayutthaya: 10 turns: +20
 * The Majapahit: 8 years: +16
 * Siak: 8 years: +16
 * Economic Development: 61/3 = 20
 * Ayutthaya: 10: +20
 * The Majapahit: 7: +14
 * Siak: 7: +14
 * Much Larger econ: + 10
 * Straits of Malacca: + 3 (You guys need to update that section, BTW)
 * Expansion: - 2 (War of Pre-Emption)
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: Taking Territory of Similar culture but not part of nation: +5
 * Modifiers: Support: 4
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit count: 7884
 * UTC: 12:05 = 10
 * Total: 7884/10*(3.14159265359) = 2476.83164809
 * Nation Age: (5+5+0)/3 = ~3
 * Ayutthaya: Mature (+5)
 * Siak: Mature (+5)
 * The Majapahit: Old: +0
 * Population: 8+20 = 28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 65,000/20,000 = 3
 * Recent Wars: -2 (War of Pre-Emption)
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Pagaruyung(Defender)
Total: 27
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: +2 (high ground, since some of my invasion is seabased, though not all.)
 * Nations: Pagaruyung (L) = 5/14 = 0
 * Military Development: 4/48
 * Economic Development: 3/61 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 4
 * Motive: +9 (defending from fatal attack)
 * Modifiers: Low Morale: -5
 * Chance: 1 (see above)
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +5 (mature)
 * Population: 6 digits
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 20,000/65,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((94/(94+27))*2)-1 = 55.4%
 * (55.4)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 41.55 % after two years WHOA LOOK SAME RESULT

Discussion
This algorithm needs a lot of work. Mscoree (talk) 02:15, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so I have gone ahead and taken care of a few things. Firstly, you messed up the location. You would get a 4 and he would get a 5. You get a 14 for 5+5+5-2-2+3 for nations per side.

Then there are development scores. According to the NPC bonus, the NPC gets dev. scores for each year not in a war, so they get 20 years worth of dev. 7 years go into infra., 7 towards econ., and then 6 into mil.

You do not get high morale seeing as your chance is under 4. Furthermore, I'd assume the other nation would have support in defending the motherland. I had a mod's ok to do this, but all decisions can be debated, in theory. 02:46, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Read the rules Rex. For the 20 years, the scores are then divided by 2 and rounded to the nearest whole number. The military score will not be 14, but in fact 4. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:55, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

And I am having serious worries about the counting ability of some. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:58, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

^ Same. I'm not sure what you're counting, Rex.

Agh, I forgot that about the Location.

This new rule is extremely stupid; it allows for Vivimpires once more.

I'm fixing it.

Furthermore, as the rules clearly state, NPCs don't get support unless the mods say so in a mod event.

20:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Alexandria (Attacker)
Total: 64 so far
 * Location: 5+3+3+2+5 = 3.6 = 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Alexandria (L) +5, Roman Empire (M) +3, Mughal Empire (M) +3, Ethiopia (MV), Alexandrian Aiguptia (LV) = 11/3 = 4
 * Military Development: 8 turns = 16/10 = 1.6 ~ +2
 * Economic Development: 2 turns = 4/5 = .8 ~ +1
 * Economic Bonus: +2 Alexandria, + 10 Much Large Economy, +5 Larger Trade +17
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 6 turns = 12 NA
 * Motive: +7 Enforcing Political Hegemony
 * Modifiers: 0
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit count: 2790
 * UTC: 810= 8
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =1095. 630437939513
 * Nation Age: 0 (mature)
 * Population: +18
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 49/10 = 5
 * 15,000 Alexandria
 * 10,000 Christian Aiguptia
 * 10,000 Ethiopia
 * 10,000 Roman Empire
 * 4,000 Mughal Empire
 * Recent Wars: Aiguptia -4 (Ls), Ethiopia -2 (L), Aiguptia (-2) -8
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Islamic Aiguptian (Defender)
Total: 22 * 1.5 Popular Revolt Bonus = 33
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Aiguptian rebels (L) +5 = 5
 * Military Development: 10/16 = 0
 * Economic Development: 5/4 = 1
 * Economic Bonus: -2 Smaller Economy
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Motive: Aiding religious kinsmen who are being oppressed +7
 * Modifiers: -5 Troop Moral Low
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: -10 Newborn
 * Population: 1,000,000 +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: TBD/10,000 =0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((64/(33+64))*2)-1 = .319587 so far.
 * (.32)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0
 * Rebellion is halted. I was told by mods that i only have to win a popular revolt rebellion in order to hold onto control.

Discussion
This is only the start, feel free to add the rest Sky Green 24 19:32, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Do I even need an algo? g greg e  (talk)  19:41, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I think you are done. As far as I know if you win a rebellion you win.ALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!! 20:40, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

You did screw up a bit.

For economy, you can only recieve ONE of those bonuses; ie, +5 OR +10, not both.

Furthermore, Ayutthaya sent you some supplies and some ships to aid with transport.

21:17, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Ayutthaya (Attacker)
Total : 109
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (siege weaponry)
 * Nations: Ayutthaya (L), The Majapahit (LV), Siak (LV), Holland (M) = 14/5 = 3
 * Military Development: 52/4 = 13
 * Ayutthaya: 10 turns: +20
 * The Majapahit: 8 years: +16
 * Siak: 8 years: +16
 * Economic Development: 61/3 = 20
 * Ayutthaya: 10: +20
 * The Majapahit: 7: +14
 * Siak: 7: +14
 * Much Larger econ: + 10
 * Straits of Malacca: + 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: Taking Territory of Similar culture but not part of nation: +5
 * Modifiers: Support: 4, Morale: +5 = 9
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count: 7893
 * UTC: 8:36 =  144
 * Total: 7893/144*(3.14159265359) = 172.198547325
 * Nation Age: (5+5+0)/3 = ~3
 * Ayutthaya: Mature (+5)
 * Siak: Mature (+5)
 * The Majapahit: Old: +0
 * Population: 8+20 = 28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 85,000/20,000 = 4 (I explained the troop increase in my turn)
 * Recent Wars: -4 (War of Pre-Emption, Pagaruyung)
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Selebar (Defender)
Total: 33
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0 (Not attacking by sea this time)
 * Nations: Selebar (L) = 5/18
 * Military Development: +3/52 = 0
 * Economic Development: +4/61= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Motive: 9 (defending against lethal attack)
 * Modifiers: Low morale: -5
 * Chance: 8 (see above)
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -5 (Ancient)
 * Population: 7 digits
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 20,000/85,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((109/(33+109))*2)-1 = 53.5%
 * (53.5)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 40.125% 2 year war.

Ayutthaya (Attacker)
Total : 114
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (siege weaponry)
 * Nations: Ayutthaya (L), Siak (LV),  The Majapahit (LV), Aru (LV),Holland (M) = (5+5+5+5+3-2-2-4)/5 = 3
 * Military Development: 62/4 = 16
 * Ayutthaya: 10 turns: +20
 * The Majapahit: 8 years: +16
 * Siak: 8 years: +16
 * Aru: 5 years: +10
 * Economic Development: 71/3 = 24
 * Ayutthaya: 10: +20
 * The Majapahit: 7: +14
 * Siak: 7: +14
 * Aru: 5: +10
 * Much Larger econ: + 10
 * Straits of Malacca: + 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: Taking Territory of Similar culture but not part of nation: +5
 * Modifiers: Support: 4, Morale: +5 = 9
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 7903
 * UTC: 12:36 =  36
 * Total: 7903/36*(3.14159265359) = 689.666853926
 * Nation Age: (5+5+5+0)/3 = ~5
 * Ayutthaya: Mature (+5)
 * Siak: Mature (+5)
 * The Majapahit: Old: +0
 * Aru: +5 (Mature)
 * Population: 8+20 = 28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 90,000/20,000 = 5
 * Recent Wars: -6 (War of Pre-Emption, Pagaruyung, Selebar)
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Tulang Bawang (Defender)
Total: 21
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0 (Not attacking by sea this time)
 * Nations: Selebar (L) = 5/15 = 0
 * Military Development: +3/52 = 0
 * Economic Development: +4/61= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Motive: 9 (defending against lethal attack)
 * Modifiers: Low morale: -5
 * Chance: 6 (see above)
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -15 (Antique)
 * Population: 7 digits
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 20,000/90,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((114/(21+114))*2)-1 = 68.8889%
 * (68.889)*(1-1/(2*1)) = ~34.4445% One turn, What's it called FALLS.

Possible Treaty-breaking penalty
In the recent war, two non-aggression pacts were broken: Novgorod->Scandinavia, and Prussia->Hamburg. Issues (especially the Novgorod one) were raised on chat, ranging from "they can't do that", to "they can break the treaty". Either way, I believe this will set a dangerous precedent, therefore, I'm suggesting a penalty be put in place if a nation breaks a non-aggression pact. The amount will be up to the mods.

Aye

 * Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:48, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Callumthered (talk) 12:14, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 13:02, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mscoree (talk) 14:10, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tardis.pngS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!!Tardis.png 14:35, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Batmanlogonobackground.pngananananana BAT-CRIMBatmanlogonobackground.png 19:06, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fed (talk) 11:59, May 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fed (talk) 11:59, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Aye

 * I completely agree. In OTL, when an alliance was broken nobles would be greatly distraught. Futhermore, other nations would stop respecting a nation, an effective death notice for some time in the future. Think of what would happen if the US elected a new leader and he declared war on traditional leaders. In EUIV, a pretty historically accurate game, stability drops when a treaty is broken. 06:40, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * With Blood and Iron (talk) 11:40, May 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * If people are allies as well you should also have the penalties. [[Image:Flag of Russian Alaska (HR).svg |40px|link=User talk:Octivian Marius]] OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM  [[Image: Flag of Italy (Federalist Italy).svg|40px|User talk:Octavian Marius]]
 * One of the major problems I have with this game. Bfoxius (talk)
 * One of the major problems I have with this game. Bfoxius (talk)

Nay

 * I like the principle, but we already have a modifier that can be adapted for this- the War and Government not support by people mods. Just apply em here.
 * As the point above, however, broken treaties are a fact of history. Some nations do it more repetitevly than others.  Saamwiil, the Humble 02:27, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I assume we're just going to add a subtraction in the algorithm. Another alternative would be to have some sort of revolt if a nation does it twice within a certain amount of time. I think it should also be dependent on the level of treat. Breaking a trade agreement or something minor should be no effect, and maybe from a minor war (less than a certain amount of points in the previous algorithm) can have a lesser affect than a major war. Just some ideas there. Mscoree (talk) 14:47, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

A points hit in the algorithm could work, and for repeat offenders, possible revolts. It is a logical step, there are several games like EUIV that illustrate the instability of breaking a treaty, not to mention OTL instances in which the aggressor nations were looked on with distrust following the event. I don't think penalties should exist for breaking something minor like a trade agreement or cancelling diplomatic relations, only if they break alliances and Non aggression pacts.ALLONS-Y!!,Basically, RUN!! 14:50, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Probably something like this:
 * Minor Agreements (Trade, Relations, etc): 0
 * Minor War (Victory less than 15%): -1
 * Major War (Victory over 15%): -2
 * Second Offense within current reign and/or ten years (Of either of the last two): -4

The numbers may be tweaked, but I think something like that makes sense. Also possible revolts, apply as needed, for two or more offenses, and of course the general distrust other nations will surely feel. Mscoree (talk) 18:20, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

or the nations could get an automatic "War not Supported by People" in their motive? with stacking in the past 15 years?-Lx (leave me a message) 00:02, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Guys- as Lx said, there is already a modifier for this.

00:20, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Guns we aren't sure of the system yet. You basically just voted no but yet in the comments described how we could implement this with the already existing system, so which are you? Mscoree (talk) 10:40, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

I'm saying "we already have this, there's no reason to change the rules".

20:28, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Editing Past Turns
Hey, guys. Something that I noticed that was happening big time during the last major war: people editing past turns. We used to crack down on this hard in Principia Moderni II and I'm not sure why we aren't now. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why a user may want to edit a past turn. However, it's up to a user to make sure that his/her post remains on the page. Mods will help you out on this, but it ultimately falls on your shoulders. During this war, I saw people posting in turns that were over, adding things to their posts or even adding posts in general. We allow a window of opportunity after midnight UTC to add or edit your posts. Let's stick to this window.

We are going to start cracking down on this again. Apologies to anybody who was unclear on this rule.

Thanks,

Bananananananana BAT-CRIM 19:20, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

As it stands, nobody is allowed to edit a previous turn after 06:00 UTC (about midnight in some areas). However, since many may not have been able to make their edit before that time, some go ahead with it either when they wake up, or when they have the time (since many of the players have jobs, at least I hope they do). So it truly depends on the situtation of the player. It would be up to the mods to figure out the time tables of each player, and depending on their circumstances, I can possibly see some allowances to the rule. But like I said, it all depends on the individual player's circumstances. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:28, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

The accepted norm since Lurk cracked down hard on past turns' is you are allowed ~1 hr after the end of the year to post. Not much more. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:24, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Uhh... not to nag, but for some ~1 hr after the end of the year is 3 A.M. What I would like to suggest is that for players with that issue, they are allowed to post their turns 'till 6 A.M. UTC, but aren't allowed to declare war, offer treaties, trade agreements etc. if they post after the new turn starts Sky Green 24 15:24, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

May i have Michigan?
I would like Michigan as a nation soon, after it gains independence. Is this alright? In the mean time, with the mayans dead, i would like to be the Vatican City again. May i?

There will be no jumping around to different nations. The rules technically don't allow it, unless the user's first nation is destroyed. Once you commit to a nation, you cannot change. If you're waiting for a nation, you may not sign up as another nation in the meantime, you will just have to wait. Cour *talk* 21:44, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Location
Look, I'm not trying to be annoying about this- and it works fine for now- but this kind of "location doesn't matter" attitude is what led to the Caliphate and the Vivimpires (no offense intended, Viva; it's just the common lingo). At the present moment, Castille could probably annex the Fusahito Theocracy, or at least get a percentage north of 33%.

However, I do see some of the reasoning for the switch from multiple of five, so instead let me suggest this:

Location is done in PENALTIES, of power of two. Alternately, multiples of four. Thoughts, anyone?
 * At Location of War: -(2^0) = -1 (You still have to move your troops, after all)
 * Bordering Location of War: -(2^1) = -2
 * Near Location of War: -(2^2) = -4
 * Close to Location of War: -(2^3) = -8
 * Far from Location of War: -(2^4) = -16
 * Other side of the world: -(2^5) = -32
 * At War: +20
 * Bordering War: +16
 * Near War: +12
 * Close to War: +8
 * Far from War: +4
 * Other side of the world: +0

I have to say, it matters less right now, but in the next couple of centuries- especially in the 1600s and 1700s, before industrialization- location implausibility will become huge.

23:04, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

The Caliphate was, besides Ethiopia, completely contiguous and only declared war on contiguous states, so no, that doesn't support you, but I do see a need for distance to become a factor. Being able to lead a war half a continent away should be made harder. A continuous penalty of one though wouldn't make sense, as it would basically make participation a 9. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:21, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

The penalty system is much better/plausible/makes sense. The invader is the one that has to deal with transporting soldiers, resources, provide shelter thus it would be simple to say that the invader must suffer penalties. But that's only my opinion

~ RexImperio

I prefer the penalty option. The defender will always get a minus one- but hey, they have to move their troops too; and the attacker can get a -2 at best, since they still have to move across the border.

20:59, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Teraty-Breaking Proposition...and something more
as you guys know, History is not all sunshine and butterflies, and, sometimes, despite some nations' best intentions, and learders' competance, sometimes politics, intrigue, and downright bad luck ruin crops, spur religious fundamentalism(decrying the governement as sinful, and detatched from devine will), or simply rival politicians looking for vengance(I'm looking at you Congressman Underwood). so I hereby propose that a system, combining ruler age, political family/dynasty, reign length, war outcome, warmongering, treaty-breaking, and base "revolt risk" and perhaps more to combine to a chance to have a negative mod event hit every nation, and, if not dealt with, be headed for full-on rebellion.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:24, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

100% agreed. Bfoxius (talk)

Questions
1) Is there a certain limit to the number of wars that may take place in let's say '10 years'

2) I have seen some people expand 1000-4000km while some expand 50km. Any particular reason for the difference?

3) How do we know which nation has a stronger military or economy other than the point system? I mean if a tribal nation and a nation in Europe develop their economy each turn, they'd end up with equal points..

4) If one army uses gunpowder weaponry whilst another uses swords, where one the algorithm would the former gain a bonus?

5) When PvP wars end and one nation gets 33% 34% land from the opponent, will the loser have all of his land annexed? Or to show plausibility and also role play; will a treaty be formed?

~ RexImperio

1. There isn't necessarily a limit, but at the same time you need to make sure it's plausible. Having too many wars will bankrupt your nation and heavily lower your stability. Having more than two in a decade, especially expansionist/offensive wars will likely collapse your nation.

2. Details on how fast you can colonize can be found on the rules page. Some nations can expand faster than others, and older colonies can also expand faster. This again comes down to plausibility too, meaning even if a nation is allowed to expand say 5000 sq mi, it doesn't mean they can/should expand by that much constantly.

3. This is something that is often criticized about the algorithm. For the most part anyway a nation that has a higher quality military will feel that effect somewhere else in the algorithm, such as number of troops.

4. That currently isn't accounted for in the algorithm, but perhaps that can be a new addition soon.

5. If a nation gets 34% or higher in an algorithm it means they topple to enemy government. From here you can theoretically do whatever you want, such as annex all their land, but in practice for plausibility the gains have to make sense, and the attacker must be capable of actually taking that particular land. Either way a treaty is usually formed.

Anyway, I hopes that helps to answer some of your questions. Mscoree (talk) 18:00, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, it was indeed helpful - RexImperio

'''Actually, no. '''Technology IS factored in, as a country with better tech will have a much bigger economy, population, and thus more troops, etc.

When industrialization comes in, that'll grant a multiplier.

20:58, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Ayutthaya (Attacker)
Total : 111
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (siege weaponry)
 * Nations: Ayutthaya (L), Siak (LV),  The Majapahit (LV), Aru (LV),Holland (M) = (5+5+5+5+3-2-2-4)/5 = 3
 * Military Development: 62/4 = 16
 * Ayutthaya: 10 turns: +20
 * The Majapahit: 8 years: +16
 * Siak: 8 years: +16
 * Aru: 5 years: +10
 * Economic Development: 71/3 = 24
 * Ayutthaya: 10: +20
 * The Majapahit: 7: +14
 * Siak: 7: +14
 * Aru: 5: +10
 * Much Larger econ: + 10
 * Straits of Malacca: + 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: Taking Territory of Similar culture but not part of nation: +5
 * Modifiers: Support: 4, Morale: +5 = 9
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit count: 7917
 * UTC: 9:01 =  9
 * Total: 7917/9*(3.14159265359) = 2763.55433761
 * Nation Age: (5+5+5+0)/3 = ~5
 * Ayutthaya: Mature (+5)
 * Siak: Mature (+5)
 * The Majapahit: Old: +0
 * Aru: +5 (Mature)
 * Population: 8+20 = 28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 97,000/20,000 = 5
 * Recent Wars: -8 (War of Pre-Emption, Pagaruyung, Selebar, Tulang Bawang)
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Tulang Bawang (Defender)
Total: 20
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0 (Not attacking by sea this time)
 * Nations: Selebar (L) = 5/15 = 0
 * Military Development: +3/52 = 0
 * Economic Development: +4/61= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Motive: 9 (defending against lethal attack)
 * Modifiers: Low morale: -5
 * Chance: 4 (see above)
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -15 (Antique)
 * Population: 7 digits
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 20,000/97,000 = 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((111/(20+111))*2)-1 = 69.5%
 * (69.5)*(1-1/(2*1)) = ~34.75% One turn, What's it called FALLS.
 * Jakarta goes to the Dutch, the rest to Ayutthaya.

Albion

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege equipment, ambush +7
 * Nation Per Side: Albion (L), Scotland (L), Wales (LV), Eire (L) Brittany (MV) =  20/10 = 2
 * Military development: 80/40 = 2
 * Albion: 20
 * Scotland: 20
 * Eire: 20
 * Wales: 20
 * Economic: 80/40 = 2 + 15 = 17
 * Albion: 20
 * Scotland: 20
 * Eire: 20
 * Wales: 20
 * (larger colonial empire + much larger economy)
 * Motive:
 * +3 +3 +3 +3 = 12
 * Chance:
 * Nation age: +5
 * Population:+27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent wars: -2
 * Number of troops: 90000/20000 = 5
 * Total:
 * Number of troops: 90000/20000 = 5
 * Total:

Hamburg

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nation Per Side: Hamburg (L), Mecklenburg (L): 10/20 = 0
 * Military development: 40/80 = 0
 * Hamburg: 20
 * Mecklenburg: 20
 * Economic: 40/80 = 0 -2 = -2
 * Hamburg: 20
 * Mecklenburg: 20
 * Smaller economy
 * Motive:
 * +9 +9
 * (modifier) +3
 * Chance: ?
 * Nation age: +0
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent wars: -4 (two leaders)
 * Number of troops: 20,000/90,000 = 0
 * Total:
 * Total:

Discussion
Imp will come and fix things

Anti-Venice (Attacker)
Total: 92
 * Location:
 * Milan: 5
 * Austria: 5
 * Roman Empire: 5
 * Crete: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (siege weaponry)
 * Nations: Milan (L), Austria (L), Roman Empire (L), Crete (L), Padua (LV), Swabia (LV), Albania (LV) = 29, 2
 * Military Development: 140/56 = 3
 * Milan: 20
 * Austria: 20
 * Roman Empire: 20
 * Crete: 20
 * Padua: 20
 * Swabia: 20
 * Albania: 20
 * Economic Development: 140/56 = 3
 * Milan: 20
 * Austria: 20
 * Roman Empire: 20
 * Crete: 14
 * Padua: 20
 * Swabia: 20
 * Albania: 20
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 61
 * Milan: 5+4
 * Austria: 3
 * Roman Empire: 5+4
 * Crete: 9+4
 * Padua: 5+4
 * Swabia: 3
 * Albania: 5
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Milan: 5
 * Austria: 0
 * Roman Empire: 0
 * Crete: -5
 * Population: 8+2=10
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 125,000/15,000 = 8
 * Milan: 20,000
 * Austria: 20,000
 * Roman Empire: 40,000
 * Padua: 5,000
 * Swabia: 20,000
 * Albania: 10,000
 * Crete: 10,000
 * Recent Wars:
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Venice (Defender)
Total: 40
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Venice (L), Epirus (L), Candia (LV), Kaffa (LV) = 16, 0
 * Military Development: 56, 0
 * Economic Development: 56, 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 12
 * Motive: 9 (defending against lethal attack)
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age: -3
 * Venice - -15
 * Epirus - 5
 * Candia - 0
 * Kaffa - 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 15,000, 0
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Discussion
At this point you can get 39%. Enjoy your piping hot slices of Venice. --Yank 00:45, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

France

 * Location: close the location of the war +4
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege equipment +5
 * Nation Per Side: France (L), Burgundy(LV), Lorraine (LV)= 11/11 = 1
 * Military development: +54/42 = +1
 * Economic: +60/60 = +1 (Much Larger economy, Larger Colonial Empire) +15 = 16
 * Motive: Attacking to enforce political Hegemony +28, (Troop morale high)
 * Chance:
 * Edit count 2445
 * 2443/10: 188.0769
 * 188.0769*pi :590.861
 * Nation age:+5
 * Population:+28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 200.000/ 25.000 = 8
 * Recent wars:-8
 * Total: 98

Trier

 * Location: at the location of the war +5
 * Tactical Advantage: no defense, Open field +1
 * Nation Per Side: Trier (L), Julich(LV),Zweibrucken (LV)= 11/11 = 1
 * Military development: +42/54= +0
 * Economic: +60/60 = +1
 * Infrastructure:15/0 = 15
 * Motive: 12
 * Defending Heartland from attack that will not cripple/ destroy nation: +5 +5  +5 = 15
 * +3 (Non demo,supported by people)
 * Low morale -6
 * Chance:
 * Edit count 2445
 * 2443/10: 188.0769
 * 188.0769*pi :590.861
 * Nation age:+3
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops:  25,000/200,000 = 0
 * Recent wars:-18
 * Total:  37

Result
(98/(98+37))*2)-1 = 0.4518 45% of Trier can be annexed, therefore causing a fall in the government.

(45.18)*(1-1/4)) = 33.885

In two years, France can overthrow the government of Trier, and establish it as their puppet or vassal.

Discussion

 * Hells yeah niggas lol

Algo Editions by non authorized

 * If you arent fed or imp paste here your edits

A few changes:

France
 * Location: close the location of the war +4
 * Tactical Advantage: Siege equipment +5
 * Nation Per Side: France (L), Burgundy(LV), Lorraine (LV)= 11/11 = 1
 * Military development: +54/42 = +1
 * Economic: +60/60 = +1 (Much Larger economy, Larger Colonial Empire) +15 = 16
 * Motive: 9
 * France: 3 (Economic/territorial gains)
 * Burgundy: 3 (Aiding Ally)
 * Lorraine: 3
 * Chance:
 * Edit count 2445
 * 2443/10: 188.0769
 * 188.0769*pi :590.861
 * Nation age:+5
 * Population:+28
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 200.000/ 25.000 = 8
 * Recent wars:-8
 * Total: 79

Trier
 * Location: at the location of the war +5
 * Tactical Advantage: no defense, Open field +1
 * Nation Per Side: Trier (L), Julich(LV),Zweibrucken (LV)= 11/11 = 1
 * Military development: +42/54= +0
 * Economic: +60/60 = +1
 * Infrastructure:15/0 = 15
 * Motive: 14
 * Trier: 9
 * Julich: 5
 * Zweibrucken: 5
 * +3 (Non demo,supported by people)
 * Low morale -6
 * Chance:
 * Edit count 2445
 * 2443/10: 188.0769
 * 188.0769*pi :590.861
 * Nation age:+3
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of troops: 25,000/200,000 = 0
 * Recent wars:-3
 * Total: 55

I thought there was a tactical advantage for defenses too? I have been building defenses non stop since about the beginning of the game. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 00:53, May 14, 2014 (UTC)