Talk:Atlantic Islands (Map Game)

Ends in 1800
The map game ends in 1800, but do you continue after that. Like still create history and eveything? Marcus/Michael Villanova 01:42, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes. The map game is just for us to observe colonization efforts and to decide on borders. Once the game is done, the country you get out of it is yours. ChrisL123 01:57, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

And nothing is set in stone right? I saw on a proposal page that there is a extinct country called Dutch Azores, i'm wondering if I could still inhabit the Azores and called Dutch Azores. Since it was a proposal I was wondering if I couldn't still do it. I'm new to map games to so I'mnot in know either =]. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:12, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nothing in the nations page for this timeline is being kept for sure, except for maybe Nova Roma. Anyway, since you are the Netherlands in this map game, it is your decision where you want to colonize the islands. It is possible to colonize some of the Azores and call them Dutch Azores, and it is up to you if the inhabitants of the island want to be independent or not. ChrisL123 18:43, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

How to select?
I'm new to map games, how do I select a country? Do I have to simply add my name beside it? I'll pick Portugal... :) Parsifal br 03:40, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am too, I have to rely on other map games for me to understand how they work. But you did it right :P ChrisL123 03:55, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Good. And by the way, the map looks just beautiful... :) Parsifal br 03:58, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Questions on the mapboard
I know this would complicate the game immensely, but I have a few doubts concerning the game and the further ALT we'll derive from it


 * Like what? ChrisL123 04:21, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I accidentaly published it before I finished writing. I was going to write this:

Questions on the mapboard I know this might complicate the game immensely, but I have a few doubts concerning the game and the further ALT we may derive from it. I think they would all add up for credibility, to make it look like more than a game - a believable timeline instead. Please give your opinions on each of the items below.

America (and Africa)
I know the focus is the islands, but I can't really think of their colonization without relating it to the colonization of America (and Africa, for that matter). Are we going to focus only in the islands? I think that, since the existence of the islands would change a lot about colonialism, we might as well focus on the whole continent. Parsifal br 04:36, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I assume the islands could be used as stepping stones to the Americas, but I think these early settlements of the Americas (like OTL New Netherland, for example) would be lost to either the UK or France through wars to claim the land. ChrisL123 05:06, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Timing
What about the beginning of the colonial enterprises? I don't ask this because I picked Portugal, but are all countries supposed to start at the same time? It makes no sense in OTL, since Portugal started its expansion by 1415, and most countries only did it more than a century after that. Actually, the other countries did not even exist by 1415! USA is a dramatic example (and I even believe that such a different conformation of the Atlantic could lead to no USA at all)...

Again, not saying this because I have picked the pioneer country, but I suggest that each country should enter the game by the time they actually launched their colonial enterprises in OTL - maybe a few years earlier, but surely not 150 or 250 years before. It would sound too unlikely to make it for a believable timeline. Parsifal br 04:36, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, no, I didn't mean it like that. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. One of the reasons we started so early is because of Portugal (and maybe Spain.) They were the first country to really start colonizing the islands of the OTL Atlantic. I suppose we could start around the 1600s when the rest of the colonial powers came to the Americas, and you would have first pick of the islands (being Portugal.) USA will most likely not have a lot of work to do but I do think they will have claimed some islands. ChrisL123 05:06, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Previous inhabitants
Are the islands supposed to be uninhabited by 1400? Or are we free to make up their histories prior to that? Making up a few ancient civilizations that would have been dwelling in the islands (provided, of course, we are able to explain their arrival there - hard task) sounds compelling. Anyway, they would probably be an "accessory", since they would likely be crushed by colonial expansion, but they would allow a great deal of creativity about "Ancient history" or "Pre-modern history of the Atlantic Islands" (nice name for a page!) to arise. Parsifal br 04:36, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the aboriginal peoples can be dealt with after all the nations are finished, that way we can look through the maps to sort out who went and settled where. There will be an article of the aboriginal peoples on the islands (as seen in the portalbox), and there should be a bit of information on the nation articles. ChrisL123 05:06, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of Tordesilhas
Treaty of Tordesilhas was signed only in 1494, way after our game starts; shouldn't it be left for that moment? I mean, if the ocean is different, maybe so could be the treaty.

(This question relates to the "Timing" section above, since otherwise Spain would simply be in a disavantage position. If anyone is allowed to go for any island EXCEPT FOR Spain, since the beginning, that would be somehow unfair. Not to mention it would be way too anachronic). Parsifal br 04:50, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * In OTL, Spain did claim the Canary Islands in 1402. In the ATL, I assume they would also claim other Atlantic Islands, possibly up to the Azores. In OTL, the treaty didn't make it that Spain had to give up the Canaries that were already a Spanish colony, so as long as Spain gets some colonies in the ATL, they should be fine. ChrisL123 05:06, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Only Portugal (and Maybe France and Spain) might be prepared for colonisation of the islands (no interior troubles). Also, are you Portugues (or Brasilian) Granero 05:08, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Pirates
Can their be a nation of pirates due to the fact their is a many more islands which increase the chances of pirates hiding and thus make them a much greater risk Whitesight 14:50, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh no, I doubt that could ever be possible. They might be able to claim a few islands for a little while but once the colonial powers arrive there's no way the pirates could maintain their islands and would be taken over. ChrisL123 17:36, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Pirates were very important around this time. Many nations paid pirates to plunder the superpower of the time i.e. Spain. Also pirates had bases on Port Royal, Tortuga, New Providence and on the Barbary Coast of North Africa.

Main timeline
I'll gladly take Denmark in the Map Game for the sake of getting the borders drawn up, so would that mean that I'd get the Danish nation in the main timeline? Would Denmark even be able to maintain a colony long enough for it to declare independence? I'm not saying they wouldn't have colonies, but based on Denmark's track record in the Caribbean and Asia, their colonies would probably end up being sold/annexed to Britain pretty quickly. - Mister Sheen 20:19, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you don't necessarily only get the Danish nation. This is an open timeline, so I'm sure you can contribute to any island nation you wish to contribute to. ChrisL123 20:45, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Questions
1. what is first "dibs"?

2. Could it not possible that France can colonise some of the Brasilian islands in the north, because they are close to French Guyana? Granero 20:46, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1. Heh, sorry, I'm a colloquial kind of person. All it means is France, along with Portugal and Spain, get the first pick of islands since the three powers would have been the first nations to colonize the islands from 1400 to 1600 (when the other powers emerged.)


 * 2. Oh, yes, I forgot all about French Guyana. Yes, you are welcome to colonize those islands as well. ChrisL123 20:49, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I would like to colonis Corner Islands, but can I rework the map and give French names, and also to make the pages of the towns? Granero 20:44, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

Game
Game on? I got Pink! Horay! And we've eliminated USA (Thank God, even though I live in the USA). Hopefully we can get this started soon =]. Good luck to all! Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:54, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, now that everyone is signed up, there is just one more thing to do before we begin. We require Spain (BSE, who I assume is BlackSkyEmpire), Portugal (Parsifal br) and France (Granero) to claim their first set of islands. Portugal and Spain started in the 1400s and sailed south-west towards South America, so I assume they wouldn't be able to get a lot, maybe up to Azores.


 * To the three editors, just copy the image to paint, colour the islands you want corresponding to the colour you have beside your name on the sign-up list and save the file as .PNG. Then just upload it here and I will sort out the islands. Once they get their islands the rest of us can begin. ChrisL123 21:05, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Nice. Okay. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:09, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Game on
I may start, but I want to understand this: by1600, Portugal had already claimed the Azores, Madeira and the islands in African coast (Fernando Poo, Sao Tomé), as well as many parts of Africa (Angola) and America (Brazil). Am I supposed to claim this all from the start? Or do we have to develop a "foreplay" that goes from 1400 to 1600? Parsifal br 23:05, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, doesn't matter. We could put the maps in a gallery for the editors to see the evolution of the claims Portugal had from 1400-1600, but you probably will have most of those claims when we start. ChrisL123 23:17, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Game on! I don't know how to make it, since it is my first map game, and what I'm creating now is more of a scenario for the game than the game itself. I figured out that, since the game actually starts in 1600, I could fast forward the previous scenario, and make five movements at once, each one a decade long. That´s what I did. Please tell me if this is the right way. I just added it up to 1450, so there will be more to come. Parsifal br 01:49, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's perfectly fine, in fact it's easier to read. It gives a great introduction to the game, too. Do you have your map ready? ChrisL123 16:53, July 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, not yet. I tried to edit it, but could not get a good image definition. What's the software people use to edit maps? I tried it the simplest way (MS Paint... :$... lol ), but the map had not enough image definition for me to color the islands, which were too small in scale. Parsifal br 17:26, July 12, 2011 (UTC)===Whose idea was this?===


 * Oh, it's not that complicated. Click the map on the page, and the image will pop up. In the corner you should see a little piece of paper with a magnifying glass. Click that and click the image again. Now, just right click and press "copy." All you need to do now is paste it to MS Paint (it's my favourite mapping tool :P). Now, click the green colour and the paint bucket and click any island you think Portugal would colonize. The black islands should then turn green. If you're confused as to what I'm saying just message me and I'll take images to show you ;) ChrisL123 17:41, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

Whose idea was this game?
Yeah, it seems you've made alot of moves. In any case, sidenote: apartently this is an old idea from 2007 i'm glad we're reviving it. =] from a guy Owen 1983, he was on wikination for a time being. Also another sidenote, what was the User:Catharinia950 banned for? On Wikination she was banned for trying to make a coup to overthrow the admins, had a sockpuppets, and vandalised the wiki. I just want to be in the know =]. Marcus/Michael Villanova 16:59, July 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I was allowed (or supposed) to make so many moves at once. I figured out there would be no problem, since in OTL none of these islands were claimed by any other nation at that time. The only other claim was made by Spain (Canary Islands). But, if anyone (especially Spain) wishes to contest any claim, please do. Parsifal br 17:26, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that Catharinia950 did the same thing, except she was implausible when it came to map games, would always deny it, and swore at other users when they told her to change their ways. I don't know her personally but I had read her map games, comments, and her talk page. ChrisL123 17:10, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Like Chris said, Catherine was banned for messing up a bunch of map games; not taking any criticism or advice; and being wildly abusive to almost the entire editing body of this wiki, especially to anyone who made any kind of spelling/grammar mistake (even non-native speakers, who are a pretty big proportion of the membership). It was kind of hypocritical, since her own grammar was questionable anyway. - Mister Sheen 17:14, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah sounds like her. In any case @ChrisL - When does the Netherlands come into play? Marcus/Michael Villanova 17:21, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

The game is going
I've added more moves, but I'm still sticking to 15th century, no need to rush. I've added the papal bulls that granted Portugal the monopoly of South Atlantic, but don't worry: they will be revoked by 1600, so the game may involve the entire ocean. :) Parsifal br 19:49, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

Good!=] I hope the Netherlands can gain some island space on the Azores. That's all I really want =] Marcus/Michael Villanova 20:16, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've written some ideas that could make for guidelines to the players, but they got pretty big. Where should I put them? Here, or should I create another page for it? Parsifal br 23:04, July 12, 2011 (UTC)

Umm...Well Chris is the moderator so it's up to him. Marcus/Michael Villanova 23:10, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, well, the page is getting pretty full. If you'd like, Parsifal, you could put them in a new page. ChrisL123 23:37, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Great, I just did it. It's here . Everyone please fell free to add comments, suggestions or criticisms. Parsifal br 02:50, July 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I must say, Parsifal, for a new editor on the wiki, you've done an amazing job. I have absolutely no problems with it whatsoever. ChrisL123 03:13, July 13, 2011 (UTC)

Morocco?
One of the ideas I floated (and which was floated in some early posts in the Talk page) was that the Amperes were conquered by Muslims in the Middle Ages, and would have probably been Moroccan or an independent emirate of some kind by the 1400s. I would like to officially request to post as Morocco. I also humbly request that these dates be worked into the TL: And ultimately, I'd hope to see Morocco participating in the colonies game alongside western Europe.
 * 1430s: Portugal builds trading posts on what it calls St. Peter Island.
 * 1440s: Morocco and Portugal fight a war, and Morocco cedes St. Peter Island and the right to build a post on St. Paul.
 * 1450s: Portugal conquers the rest of the Amperes.
 * 1480s: Morocco builds a fleet to reconquer its lost provinces. Failure, but the beginning of a new naval tradition.
 * 1490s: Morocco fails to capture Madeira but finds success off the Amperes. They are again partitioned between St. Peter (Portugal) and Al-Amrokhi ("St. Paul") (Morocco).
 * 1500s: Morocco contests the Canaries with Spain. Moroccan ships get involved in the slave trade.

Eventually, the islands could still embrace the idea that leads to the "Nova Roma" idea. Maybe despite sometime Moroccan rule, they come to be inhabited mainly by a mix of Western Europeans who find a common identity in "Roman" things. I've always wanted to create a country where people spoke Lingua Franca...

I understand if this gets rejected. But that's my idea. Benkarnell 03:36, July 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I really like the idea of Morocco being one of the elements in the game. I guess Moroccan context back in the 1300s and 1400s is worth a careful look. How far in the ocean had they gone up to 1500? As the ruler of Portugal, I would like to make allegiance with Moroccans, but my subjects back in 1450 would never accept this... :)


 * The biggest trouble Moroccans would face is they are Muslim, and so they would not be considered equals by European powers. Moroccan claims would probably not be acknowledged by them. Every land claim could be seen as provokation, and might lead to attacks from some European power. Pope Nicholas V issued a papal bull in mid-1400s that allowed Christians to enslave Muslims. If Moroccans fought over Ampere Islands, they might be enslaved if defeated. And if they won, they probably would enslave Portuguese or others. That, of course, would add up to the game, and would complicate it immensely. I think it's an interesting route to think of. Parsifal br 15:24, July 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Europeans respected Muslims if they were strong enough. European powers spent an awful lot of time fighting the Ottoman sultans, for example, but they also spent a lot of time courting them as allies in their wars against each other. It's a fallacy to assume that pre-modern people spent all their time seething in religious hate. They had to be pragmatic, too. I don't see Morocco becoming one of the great powers, but I would definitely like it to be part of the game, fighting all the time over the Amperes and Canaries and trading with other islands, maybe attempting colonies in America. Benkarnell 15:37, July 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * For me, this is just perfect. To have a powerful Muslim state overseas sounds great. Parsifal br 17:38, July 13, 2011 (UTC)

A big map
I created a big blank map to help us dimension the gameboard. It's a world blank map including the greater islands. ChrisL123, I didn't mean to go over yout work, bur I figured it would be interesting to have a scalable map if we are going to conquer so many small islands. This is only a suggestion, of course.

I tried to remain as faithful to your drawing as I could, but I included a few elements in South Atlantic: an archipelago close to Sierra Leone, a mountain chain from Namibia heading southwest, two strategical islands in the middle of the ocean, mid-way from Cape Verde and Brazilian coast and a small island south of Greater Azores and Canary Islands.

The map is here:



Parsifal br 17:47, July 13, 2011 (UTC)