Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Canada & Delmarva Contact
I have a question concerning Canada and diplomatic relations, but I am unsure as to who to address it to. I am in the process of writing my section for Delmarva regarding diplomatic relations. My intention has been for Delmarva to make contact with Brazil during their 1989 expedition along the US East Coast, thus opening up political and trade relations with them and South America.

This in turn influences an age of exploration as their vessels begin reaching out and making contact. I had hoped for contact with Canada by 1990, especially because of how close the two areas are. However, when reading through the Canada article I note they don't "find" Delmarva until 1995 after visiting everyone else in the world. You mean some small group from Canada, separate from the fleet doesn't get curious and visit the area earlier? That does not make much sense.

Secondly, if I establish relations with S. America, Delmarvan representatives will be there in 1994 during the Canadian visit, so they couldn't just find Delmarva the following year anyway. I would like to suggest contact earlier between the two areas, so they already know and have contact. However, I would be okay with the "official fleet" not visiting until 1995. Who could I discuss this matter with. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 14:28, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

To start off, I'm the one who put that in the Canada article, and all things considered, am probably more or less its caretaker at this point. So, I suppose that it'd be me.

At any rate....

It's already been canon that Brazil didn't find anyone substantial for a very long time. Despite the Brazil article referring to "Canada," other articles indicate that none of their explorers made it even to the Outer Banks before outside contact was established by other means with these areas. The same goes for the "New York" line in the Brazil article, which actually violates a great deal of canon elsewhere..... guess I'll edit that part right now.

The Bermuda article refers to it establishing contact with Delmarva in 1990. At the same time, outside contact beyond that is only referred to as being really done in the 2000's. Thus, we need to assume that Delmarva itself only did so between those two dates.

Brazilian explorers only ran into the Outer Lands, Outer Banks, and Elizabeth City after 2000, in a few cases after others already had done so. To find Delmarva through exploration in 1989 but not these obvious ones is just not possible. Discussion about EC has indicated that the Outer Banks did indeed have some outside contact, despite their isolationism, between 1990 and 2000, but that it amounted to little. That's the "contact" the Canada article refers to.

The Canadian fleet simply went to the nearest source of contact, radio transmissions from the Azores, that they already had. From there, their path is logical. At that point in time, the Canadian government really only controlled the Maritime Islands and parts of the coastline, too, so they really weren't exploring too much. Remember, the main goal of the fleet was to re-open contact with the West Coast, not exploring, and along the way they reopened contact with others that they knew about due to contact with Portugal and the Celtic Alliance.

And, Canada establishes contact with the outside world, except the Celts, Nords, and Portuguese, in 1991. Everything north of southern North Carolina was unknown until this point, having been assumed destroyed, and it is only from there that anything is discovered about the North Atlantic. Going from that, Delmarva cannot be in contact with either Canada or anyone else at that time, since if that was the case, none of this would be true, and the Franklin would have went up the East Coast, which it did not do. The same goes for the Nimitz in 1993.

As to it not making sense, why on earth would Canadian vessels explore down a destroyed coastline, into what is another country, when they have the same type of thing at home that they need to deal with? And, knowing of other countries elsewhere, why would they go elsewhere, when they are of no use to them? Simply put, they wouldn't.

1995 is a very logical date, in light of what all other articles say. 1989 is not. Contact, by canon, is not possible with outside until at least 1994. I took all of this into account when I put the 1995 date in, and there is no reason at all for it not to stand.

Lordganon 02:06, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

LG, my apologies for taking so long to respond. Between my job and being out of town for several weeks in the Northwest, I have not had a chance to return to our discussion until now. In regards to the matter here is my thoughts. If you look at the US East Coast following the war, Delmarva is in the best position early on of any of the survivor nations to begin exploring the coast and embarking on trade exploration voyages. They have a number of small ports along with a fair number of vessels including some freighters and several coast guard cutters they could utilize. Now, I think it would be fair to say for the first five years, roughly 1983-1988, they concentrate on working on their own affairs. However, at some point, given their maritime resources as I mentioned, I find it implausible Delmarva would not try to launch sea explorations and instead do absolutely nothing for 12 years. Also consider this, Delmarva lacks energy deposits such as oil, coal, or natural gas that other areas have. Given the importance of fuel and other items of commerce it would be in their best interest to launch sea expeditions in the hope of locating other nations and establishing trade to obtain these. Given Delmarva's access to the coast and their maritime resources it would be logical for them to pursue this path than trying to carry out major land expeditions to old areas of the US. Logically, South America would be a destination for such expeditions given their resources of oil and gas.

Taking all I have said into consideration, I believe about 1989 Delmarva would be stable enough and desirous of seeing if other countries still exist and initiate trade voyages like the times of past. The arrival of Brazil about this time would nicely fit in. I raised the question of contact between the two nations to the writer of Brazil sometime ago and they had given me the okay to work it in as long as I could find a good anchorage spot for the aircraft carrier, which I think the Norfolk-Newport News roadstead would work fine for. My intention was to have the Brazilians go up the coast to NY as the article stated and miss Delmarva due to bad weather and by chance make contact on the way back. This would mark the beginning of close relationships between the two and help open inroads into SA for Delmarva. Even if this were to not happen, I am of the firm belief Delmarva would still initiate trade and exploration voyages south no later than 1990 due to contact with Bermuda and the reasons I already laid out towards the Caribbean and South America and have a presence there in time for the arrival of the Canada Navy.

As for Canada, it had just seemed plausible contact would have already been established, before 1995 most likely through contact by fishing boats at sea or radio even given it is just over something like 200+ miles to Canada. Heck, I could even see Delmarva sending an expedition there to explore. Your point is taken in regards to how the Canadians might view the condition of the East Coast post World War III, but given there were survivors in Maine and Vermont they would have made contact with before 1995, I can't help but believe they would have sent someone to explore the East Coast earlier rather than ignore it. However, you are handling Canada and as such, I can only suggest.

The thing to remember as I know you do, where as certain points will always remain canon or unchanged in this scenario, other parts are subject to changes depending on the development of other articles which did not exist at the time the original piece was written. This is something we have observed from time to time. I studied up on contacts between the various nations and noted gaps or unclear areas regarding contacts. I want to resolve this issue as it applies to Delmarva, but do it in a manner that is logical and makes sense along the lines I have laid out above. I look forward to your thoughts on the matter. --Fxgentleman 03:33, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

No worries Fx.

Canada only came into contact with Vermont and Aroostook in 1997. So, no reason to explore from there.

Canadian fishermen would not go south. The fishing there is overfished, and there wasn't much in the first place. They'd all go to the Grand Banks, like they have done for centuries.

Outside of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, Canadian control of the coastline would not have come until the 1990s. One heck of a lot more than 200 miles.

Delmarvan radios were fried. Canadian ones were not, and they heard signals from the Azores. They have no reason at all to head south when they have signals from the east.

Delmarva would have had access to several off-shore test rigs at the time. They've all been abandoned, etc. since 1984, but several were producing at the time. That's in addition to the tankers that would have been in the region. And, why on earth would they have wasted the fuel? They've every reason to believe the outside world gone, including South America - and there is no point in using up your fuel like that in such an event.

Bermuda makes contact with Delmarva, after a fashion, in 1990. Yet, they know nothing of the outside world until much later. Thus, Delmarva cannot be in contact in 1990 with the outside world. And, that contact was short and would have encouraged nothing.

Canada has been in contact with parts of the outside world since 1986, though only by radio. Contact south of the Azores only came in 1991. As the articles say, and noted by myself, why would they waste effort on ruined coastline when they knew where others definitely were? Simply put, they would not.

As I said, the Brazil stuff was not possible and has been removed/edited to make it so it was. I don't know who put it in originally, but I'd like to know what on earth they were thinking. That was the one and only reference to such an event, and was and has been contradicted virtually everywhere else.

Given Delmarvan areas of control, it is 100% impossible to get to NYC without spotting them, going up the coast, bad weather or not. And the same thing applies to the other states I listed the first time, between Georgia and Delmarva, and up to NYC. And yet, they were not in contact with these areas until the late 1990s at best.

You exaggerate the extent of the shipping. Remember, any modern, or more modern, vessels would be fried. And, the vast majority are only short-range - with the ones that aren't using up so much fuel that they simply wouldn't do it with their limited supplies - when you need fishermen for food, you're not going to waste fuel on other things.

As stated, neither the Franklin nor the Nimitz went up the East Coast of North America, instead heading to Europe. If Delmarva had been known, they would not have done so without going there first. Yet, they obviously did not. That means that there was no contact with Delmarva at that time. And this is something long, long, held in canon. And it ain't changing. The contact dates here are all very clear.

Simple logic, Fx. Canon, long enshrined, and in many places, says it has to be after 1993, even though the Delmarva article did not exist at the time. I fully realize that you do not think it plausible, but this is how it must be - and, for the record, I don't agree with you that it is not plausible, either.

Thus, 1989 is impossible. And, as I said, 1995 very reasonable. But, either way, it has to be after' 1993 that Delmarva gets to be in contact with the outside world. Not before.

Lordganon 05:20, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Nordic Union Presidency
Mentioned this on the Nordic Union talk page, suppose I should ask here since it'll be more noticeable, and to follow things I've said in the past, lol.

Anyhoo, the NU presidency, which is elected for three year periods, is up at the end of the year. Currently, it is held by Halldór Ásgrímsson, of Iceland, since 2008. There's no limit on terms, but most of them only have served a single term, which is the usual for most international organizations.

Given recent developments, I'm thinking that a change would be in order, probably to a Finn.

Thoughts?

Lordganon 06:29, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

After hunting around, I believe that Sauli Niinistö of Finland would be a good choice for the new leader. Would that be all right? Lordganon 08:15, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Population Redistribution
I've been looking over a lot of the nation articles in this TL, and I have to say the population of most countries seems... I don't want to say implausible, but strange. Some places seem to high, others to low; so I ask that we implore, not force, people to go back over the countries they've made with other people who have made countries in the same areas and redistribute the populations more so they are equal. Riley.Konner 12:01, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Examples? I've never noticed anything that odd, for the most part. Lordganon 19:29, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say the west coast being the prime example; the current survivor population is set at five million, and with most of the population in OTL being centered on the west coast don't you think it seems likely that those survivor states on the coast would have a higher population? The only explanation would be people just left, which wouldn't make any sense, or they all somehow died off (which I guess would be the best explanation). Riley.Konner 14:56, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Most of California's loss (the greatest population density on the west coast) is due to the strategic importance of the state to the US, coupled with most of the people being concentrated in major population centers. In 1983 there were about 25 million people in California. Add in the populations of Oregon (a mere 2.5 million) and Washington (another 4.2 millon) [these also being in population centers, some of which were targeted], and you get about 31.5 million people, 80% of which were in targeted areas (25.2 million). Lets assume, then, that 80% of the 25.2 million people die either directly or within a few years. That leaves about 5 million survivors plus the 6 million or so not effected directly by the disaster of doomsday. The 5 million fight with the 6 million for the resources available (as we see in the articles about the area). It is concievable, then, that there would be massive death. Whether or not half of these people would die and then not begin repopulation (say 1% per year?) is another question.


 * I don't know if the estimate of 5 million on the west coast is accurate, but it seems within reasonable perimeters. The west coast might very well have lost people in whatever boats were available (see the articles on South America and the immigrant crises there). Many would disappear statistically, not wanting to be counted. The figures given in many articles are the assumptions of the "WCRB" and those have been known to be inadequate based on many factors - not the least the lack of resources. SouthWriter 00:36, July 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * And you don't find just the little bit weird that those who would remain have just not found a country or (god forbid) been enslaved? I don't debate your statistics, but it's been 28 something years; it seems implausible that no one has found someplace to live on the west coast or anywhere else in the country. Also only a couple thousand, or even more likely only a couple hundred, would have probably found there way to South America. Some people will stay isolated some people will migrate.


 * I think you both might be taking this wrong way, I'm not saying every article has a population problem (that statement is debatable) that makes it implausible, Im saying that no one has done a good sweep through of there articles. Riley.Konner 21:02, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well for starters, the 5 million you quote is California on its own, according the the US state chart, not the West Coast. Considering that, at best, the survivor states in California come to about 2.75 million - the figure is closer to 2.6, but we'll go with the higher to make the math simpler in comparison- the 5 million has to be an error.

Most of the population is in the major cities - LA, SF, Sacramento, SD, SJ, and Oakland, along with a raft of smaller cities with between 150-500 thousand people in them, which all either went "Boom" themselves or caught full-on radiation/fires from the bigger cities.

In California, which is more urbanized than the other two states, at about 97.5 percent since the 1980 census being in urban areas of 50,000 or more, and more compact around the targets, the number in nuked cities/suburbs of them (LA, for instance, given it is so dry, would have uncontrollable wildfires for a long time afterwards, killing whatever is left... repeat elsewhere in the south), the deaths would be in the region of 90-95% or maybe even higher within the first couple of weeks. Let's go with about 91%, here, towards the low end of the range but not quite at it.

That leaves about 2.25 million survivors, of which we can safely assume 500-750 thousand die within a year. Gangs, hunger, radiation... that kind of thing. Call it 500k.

Assuming a decent growth rate - call it 2%? - on that 1.75 million, that gives us about 2.73 million people in California today, more or less within my parameters. Chalk the difference up to a combination of a touch more than 91% and a touch more than 500k.

Oregon is stated to have a population of about 1,598,861 on the same page.

Washington is unknown from that source, but cribbing from other articles, I expect it's population is between 1-1.75 million, largely in Pasco and Victoria. I figure 1.25 million works here, myself.

Gives us about 5.58 million total. Makes sense, then, though thank you for pointing out the California error. I'll fix that tomorrow.

Anything else? I'm willing to show why those are the figures given, and change things, quite readily. I've had a look through everything here, and for the most part, things should be right, but as I said, if something needs changing, I've no problem doing it.

Lordganon 05:18, July 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Those all seem like logical and well calculated statistics, so I'll take your word for it and agree with you. Although you forgot to consider migration in and out of the region that seems like a moderate to small factor, but a changing factor none the less; what do you think it would be considering migration? Riley.Konner 23:09, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Don't really consider migration to be an issue in the region. That's more of a Gulf Coast thing, atl.

At most, I'd say that would change the net result to 5.5 million, but I doubt it would impact it at all, being that those would be included in the 500k reduction most likely. The west coast is pretty isolated from the rest of the world, if you think about it, and most people with boats the live through the first few weeks would stay put. The San Diego strikes would isolate the Mexican border, and mountain ranges or desert would have much the same effect elsewhere. But, my figure is an estimate - I figure the number would lie anywhere between 5.5 million to 5.6 million, given the data.

Lordganon 06:31, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Atlantic Defense Community
Well two things here:

First, we've discussed expansion before, but it never got anywhere. There's countries interested in joining, and with the war over, it seems like it could actually happen now. Have a look at the ADC talk page for more. I'd like to see some expansion, at least to allies of current members, and hopefully another NA member too.

Second, who is this Secretary General? Never even heard of him, and the only Daniel Perry google or wikipedia can find is a American journalist/Congressional worker/executive, and given his work and when he was appointed to a federal task force, he was at the Capitol on Doomsday, being an assistant to the majority whip. Can't be him, so who is it? Really don't know, lol.

Thoughts on someone else for the position, or where they should be from, in light of this, knowing the name is only mentioned in two spots and can be easily replaced?

Lordganon 19:29, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

I know you're against using fictional characters LG, but not everyone of importance in this timeline is going to be someone with a Wikipedia article.

Anyway, with the Mediterranean Defence League being host to nations openly hostile to ADC member nations, they look like a possible future threat. Especially Turkey, who has been openly hostile to Greece and friendly towards Sicily. So enemies of Turkey and Macedonia are likely potential members of the ADC, especially once the planned conquest of Serbia goes through, Macedonia will not be looked at kindly by neighboring nations.

I know Croatia and Slovenia have expressed interest in joining, possibly Rhodope. Egypt might as well, but with likely good relations with Turkey as well as Greece, they might want to just stay out of it. Tuscany is a likely new member. Venice and Genoa I believe are too far in bed with the AlpFed, so unless they come to the ADC as a way of attaining full independence from the AlpFed, I don't see them joining.Oerwinde 06:46, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Haven't bothered with wikipedia, past a certain point. More or less useless for that work. I've got a list here of people that all work, cribbed from military websites, just have to think of which ones are best to present here. Most of the guys I have listed do not have articles on wikipedia. Canada, North Germany, the Celtic Alliance, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland all have entries on the list. It'll get changed to someone good, I assure you.

As for members, we have a list of applicants on the ADC page, along with reasons for/against various ones joining scattered through it. Egypt has as of yet held no interest - with good reason, I'd think. Tuscany has not applied, nor are they a good candidate, in my opinion. You're right about the Venetians, though the Genoans are much more independent, being so entirely - not that the principle does not apply there too, lol. Vlad is on record as saying, now, that Croatia and Slovenia are not joining. Rhodope has applied.

Lordganon 08:14, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

List I have compiled, organized by country. Otl positions included in brackets. Note that this is not the full list, just those more likely off it to be heading such an organization.


 * Denmark
 * General Knud Bartels (otl nato head candidate) (danish chief of defense otl)
 * Finland
 * General Mika Peltonen (commander of the Multinational Task Force North of EUFOR otl)
 * General Gustav Hägglund (former finnish chief of staff and chairman of the European Union Military Committee otl)
 * Admiral Jan Klenberg (former finnish chief of staff otl)
 * Norway
 * Air General Lars Myraune (also a politician otl) (former major general otl)
 * Admiral Torolf Rein (former norwegian chief of staff otl)
 * General Sverre Diesen (former norwegian chief of staff otl)
 * North Germany
 * Admiral Michael Mollenhauer (deputy commander of NATO Joint Command Lisbon otl)
 * Sweden
 * Admiral Håkan Syrén (former Swedish chief of staff and chairman of the European Union Military Committee otl)
 * General Karl Engelbrektson (commander of the Nordic Battle Group otl)
 * Air General Owe Wiktorin (former Swedish Chief of Staff otl)
 * Celtic Alliance
 * General Jeremy Mackenzie (former Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe otl)
 * General James Sreenan (former irish chief of staff otl)
 * General Dave Ashe (Irish Deputy Chief of Staff for Support otl)
 * General Colm Mangan (former irish chief of staff otl)
 * Portugal
 * Air General Tia Charles (otl Chief of Air Personnel)
 * Greece
 * Admiral Ioannis Zotos (Head of the Navy Economic department otl)
 * Air General Fotios Krevaikas (Head of the Greek Air Force Supply Command otl)
 * Canada
 * Commodore Daniel Sing (Director General Maritime Force Development otl)
 * Colonel J.D. Bernier (Defense Attache to Australia otl)
 * General D.W. Thompson (Deputy Director General International Security Policy otl)
 * Air General D.A. Davies (Senior Delegate - Air Force Strategic Engagement otl)

Now, my goal here is two things: One, to remove the fictional Perry. Two, it has now been four years since the ADC formed, and given that it is based on NATO and they have a four year limit, customarily, for their Secretary-General position, we need a new one here, too.

Now, a Canadian or a Greek, in my mind, would be unlikely. Rule them out, I think. Of the rest, one of the Nordics would be most likely, probably Sweden. Of those, I think an Admiral is most probable, followed by an "Air" General (that here is merely used to show which are air force), and lastly an Army General.

I think that Admiral Håkan Syrén of Sweden would be a good replacement for Perry. Will make it so that ADC movements make more sense, too.

As for his successor.... Well, I'm inclined to not have it be a Nordic, if the first one is. Not done in NATO, not likely done here. The Canada and Greece stuff still applies, of course. Leaves us a choice between the Celts, and Portuguese, with maybe the North Germans included. Despite him being an Army General, I'm of a mind, then, to have the next ADC head be General Jeremy Mackenzie of the Celtic Alliance.

And before someone starts up about it, let me say that Perry is on the ADC article, and referenced in a couple more war articles. Nowhere else. It's an easy thing to do, to switch the names, and will have virtually no impact. Other than to make it so that we're not using a fictional or dead character where there is virtually no need to do so.

Thoughts?

Lordganon 14:44, September 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Great research, LG, and I concur that whenever possible real, live persons should be used. I have enough trouble keeping up with my American projects - some of which have a low profile, making identifying 'real' people very diffiecult. SouthWriter 15:45, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

League of Nations Secretary General
King George Tupou V, current Secretary General, has only a couple months left in his three year term - the page says late fall, which I take to mean sometime in November. Now, the successor is pretty much set in stone - the LoN page says that the current High Commissioner of French Polynesia will succeed him. That'd be Cedric Wairafea, also the head of the RFTA. I'm thinking November 18th or so for the date.

At that time, I'd like to replace him on the RFTA page with someone else, as it's not a position he could keep as the S-G, unlike the King. My pick would be Edouard Fritch, unless someone objects.

Lordganon 14:44, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives:Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Maps
Couple months back it was pointed out that with the amount of detail in NA and Europe now in the timeline, having a labeled world map in those areas is almost impossible. Now, I haven't got a world map done yet, though maybe in the next couple weeks, but here's a up-to-date map of North America. Europe will be forthcoming.



Let me know if I missed something somewhere.

Lordganon 15:09, March 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Amazing map LG! Mitro 15:18, March 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Good map, though Pasco is a bit large and Hattiesburg is a bit small (its supposed to control down to the gulf. Also, unless International Falls/Ft. Frances has incorporated the counties/districts around them - "string of communities" - that looks a little large as well. Overall, though, with these adjustments are minor. SouthWriter 20:22, March 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent work! West Texas controls the El Paso region, and jointly administers the remainder of New Mexico with the Navajo Nation. Technically, all of the Texas republics (save Dos Laredos) jointly administer "unincorporated" Texas. By the way, Dos Laredos really only covers the OTL Laredo Texas and Laredo Mexico city borders; it doesn't go down to the Gulf.
 * Hattiesburg does go down officially to the Gulf. Louisiana covers the entire state.
 * There are a number of small yet-to-be-written-on communities in former North Carolina.
 * Isn't there another survivor state in Iowa? What about the northern Indiana survivor states?:
 * BrianD 20:35, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the size of Pasco is more or less correct given the cities and towns listed in the article as being under its control.

The Int. Falls article really isn't complete, but definitely makes in sound like it controls more than just those settlements.

I actually included everything on the latest version of the Texas maps I could find (as a side note, please make one of these besides that whole Texas map you have up right now that's easy to find, lol). Joint areas like that, which outside of the colored areas is largely in theory, aren't getting colored. I'll add the El Paso region, however.

I'm well aware of the communities mentioned in the NC article, but I did not include any of the unmade things anywhere, so they won't be either.

Hattiesburg will be edited.

Larado on the map actually doesn't go farther than the city. If you look smaller you'll find another state, your Rio Grande Republic, between it and the Gulf instead.

How on earth could Louisiana cover the whole state? That makes no sense given what the article says.

Nope, only Lincoln and the Quads in Iowa. And nothing in that area of Indiana. Those things, which the creator refused to make plausible, were obsoleted long ago, and I've no hope of Yank's Indiana thing going anywhere either.

Lordganon 11:38, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Updated for Hatt~ and Texas. Expanded Louisiana a bit as well. Lordganon 11:48, March 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just noticed an error. is missing from the map. Mitro 14:31, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, its there. Little Violet thing, west of the USA and southeast of Oregon. Lordganon 14:43, March 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, excellent, I have gone insane. That is the only logical explanation for how I missed that, haha. Mitro 14:50, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

My apologies, LG, regarding the Texas map. I will get to it no later than mid-week. As your map is covering areas that each nation controls in practice, Louisiana is accurate (it does claim the entire state, however). I didn't see Silver City, New Mexico on the map. --BrianD 20:51, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Like with the NC article communities, there's no article for it at this time, so it's not on the map. I may do those type of communities later, but way I figure it, it will just confuse people. Lordganon 01:39, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Texas, I've started a map like you suggested. Before I upload it I want to review it, including possibly designating where the various survivor states surrounding Texas are. It should be much preferable to the "red Texas" map I have on the West Texas page! BrianD 06:40, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

No doubt, lol.

Map of Europe:



Lordganon 10:03, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

LG, once again, excellent work! May I ask which tools, software, et al you're using to make these maps?

BTW, I've uploaded my Texas map....which is not nearly as nice as these two! :) BrianD 17:53, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

GIMP. Just as good as Photoshop, but doesn't cost a dime. I'll update the map as per the new Texas map you did. Lordganon 01:33, March 29, 2011 (UTC)



Voila. A world map. As noted before, the detail needed to read all of the tiny names just isn't there. All are marked in some fashion, mind, though not always readable. Obvious that we need some sort of caption with links to Europe and North America maps under it as well. Much better map, I think. What about you guys?

Lordganon 20:16, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Excellent map! Finally it's easier to tell what territory is taken. I was wondering if we wanted a blank map that we could use for maps showing statistics and international organizations, much like. It would greatly enhance the articles and provide quick reference for articles like the League of Nations. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:07, April 9, 2011 (UTC)



The map I used as the basis for this. Works perfectly for that type of thing, with the sub-boundaries and all.

About the only thing wrong with the map I made, to me, is that the areas considered uninhabitable for various reasons aren't marked except for the Dutch Wastelands and the Marianas. Meh.

Lordganon 04:30, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Think I will do one of the major uninhabitable zones, lol. Sounds interesting, I think.

Something that has long bothered me is the lack of an updated India map. Now, that changes, lol.



Modern map. I'll be adding it to the appropriate pages, to go along with the 2009 map already on the India page.

Lordganon 15:31, April 9, 2011 (UTC)



This is more what I had in mind. It's a little messy, so I'll be fixing it up later. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:00, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I assume this map shows the uninhabitable zones mentioned above. The problem is, the areas you show are just areas not yet dealt with. This is especially true with Africa, which has had no nuclear explosions. Maps that show "unihabitable zones" would have to be on a local level, marking places where bombs took out cities and surrounding dead areas. By now, very little land that received fallout blown in the winds is uninhabitable. SouthWriter 20:45, April 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * The grey part can be considered "uncontrolled," "lawless," "uninhabited," "unknown," or "unaddressed," according to the WCRB. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:53, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Almost all of that is simply "unaddressed" by us, not the WCRB. Nor unknown. No need for a map like that, as zones that have been looked into by various powers covers the vast majority of that area you mark erroneously as "unknown." Lordganon 16:53, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for the constructive criticism… Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:02, April 10, 2011 (UTC)



Current Map of Africa.

Lordganon 14:24, April 26, 2011 (UTC)



Current Map of South America.

Lordganon 16:58, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Foreign Fonts
I'm guessing this is the best place to bring this up. In discussion below, I am assured that the wiki is perfectly able to read foreign fonts (Japanese, in this case), and I sort of figured it could, but I don't know how to make my Firefox browser read them. Can anybody out there help me with the settings. --SouthWriter 03:54, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you use Windows 7, Vista, XP, then the fonts should be automatically installed al-ready. If not, the you can look here It contains download links to the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese fonts to make them at least read-able. If this doesn't help enough, let me know. 9 もりや すわこ 10:25, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Can you describe what the font look like, South? Does it look like what is described in the link "9" gave you? Lordganon 14:12, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * The link is to Wikipedia's Help page, which instructs one on how to install the fonts. Not having my install disk handy, I used the online links and downloaded the install programs. The instructions say I may have to restart my computer to get them to work. Since I have to install security upgrades anyway, I'll do it before leaving the house this morning.


 * 9, if you tell us how to pronounce your user name, I can call you by some other 'nickname.' :-)


 * SouthWriter 14:17, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Did the downloads work? Can you see the Japanese, Korean, Chinese scripts now?
 * As for my user name (It's Hiragana, the text), it translates to 'Suwako Moriya'. But, I prefer that I be referred to as just 'Kogasa' instead, please. ^^; 9 もりや すわこ 19:36, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. Now the fonts show up just fine. Interestingly, my computer had the Hindi, Arabic, Hebrew, and Greek (to list one's I've seen), but not the East Asian ones. This is in Windows only. I haven't attempted to check my Linux system yet. And welcome, Kogasa, to our community.SouthWriter 02:14, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Contest
For those of you that didn't notice, read, etc. the new community message.....

Mitro is holding a contest with regards to 1983: Doomsday at his blog. Have a look here. The contest will run until September 26th.

Basically, an interview with a person who survived DD.

Lordganon 13:40, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Biased 'Reporting'
This is just a tiny thing, and I am not being spiteful in the least, but a recent news item had a concluding remark that introduced an opinion. In a recent news post of mine (a rarity), I was at pains to be unbiased in what could be a 'touchy' subject. I guess what I am saying is this: News Reports are to state 'facts' in such a way as to convey information as unbiased as possible. Of course, total neutrality is impossible, for the very choice of headlines is 'editorial,' but we need to refrain from introducing opinion whenever possible. SouthWriter 16:32, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

You know, you could just say the post and that it was me that made it. It is meant to be a "public opinion" or "opinion of those at the trial." Lordganon 20:51, September 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I could have, but as I said, it was a tiny thing, and this note here was a general reminder. There is enough biased reporting in the real world, so I was making the point in a general way to keep the News Headlines here from following that trend. The fact is, this avenue of keeping the timeline current is not utilized enough, and I am as guilty as anyone. You utilize it better than anyone, LG, and I did not want to 'call names,' for I respect your talents far too much to be petty. SouthWriter 00:59, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2;

Music Festivals
Sorry if this isn't the right place to mention this, but I got an idea for you Doomsday people: music festivals! I was having a quick read through to see if you had anything about music festivals but I couldn't really find anything; but music festivals are a fairly big cultural thing you guys seemed to have overlooked. VonGlusenburg 15:04, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to do up a proposal. I'm sure this kind of thing would have been pretty big early after doomsday as a way to keep morale up.Oerwinde 22:38, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

There's a couple of articles on musicians that I recall hint at this kind of thing. Start there when making the article. Lordganon 04:28, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I can do a proposal but don't expect it to be brilliant, my knowledge on the whole Doomsday time line isn't that good, especially the finer details. But I'll look at those musicians articles to start from, thanks for the hint LG! --VonGlusenburg 16:15, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I got a bit wrote down on a notepad here at home, but I was wondering what to call the article. I say this cause this isn't my time line & I would rather one of you guys give me a name to call it, so you don't have to bother about moving pages & renaming it in the future. Personally I was thinking of expanding the article to music in general as well, seeing there isn't a page for music, and having music festivals as a sub-section, along with a list of musical artist profile pages. So I ask: --VonGlusenburg 11:41, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Should the music festival article be expanded to music in general?
 * If so, call the page: Music (1983: Doomsday)
 * If not, call the page: Music festivals (1983: Doomsday)

How about a "Music" article, with a "Festival" sub-section, and then the title of that sub-section is a link to a "Music Festivals" article? Lordganon 15:15, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I can do, proposals I'll try to get done for the end of the week, but I'm starting uni next week, so I will be rather distracted for a while after. Heck distracted now with stuff. But yeah, please bare with me. --VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:34, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3

Mexican Space Program
First, I would like to apologize for earlier and now. I'm entirely new at this, as some of you could already tell. Please excuse me, if I make any mistakes in procedure. I did my best to follow instructions.

Also, I'm not sure if I can still propose this idea, but I'll give it the old college try.

The idea that I would like to be incorporated into the timeline was of an independent Mexican space program apart from the LoN Space Authority. I thought of Mexico having the highest influx of American refugees in the world I thought, how about scientists too? Mainly survivors from NASA facilities in Texas, Alabama, and if possible even Florida. Though, SouthWriter was right about not talking 28 years to start a space program in Mexico. I believe that due to the chaos during the first Post DD years, the 1985 Mexico earthquake and the Yucatan War would have delayed such a movement from getting too much political support. Also, Mexico would have a significant head start on their space program do the many NASA technicians having settled in Mexico Post DD.

I think that Mexico would recognize that the SAC and USSR could have a technological advantage by having their active space programs. It would give Mexico a goal to reach and could stimulate the Mexican economy as well as a technological edge. Also, it start a Post DD space race. The only thing that they would lack is a spaceport, which I think could be place in a OTL Naval Facility in Anton Laredo, about 10 miles from Veracruz City. Its reminiscent of the old Kennedy Space Center. When I read the original Space Exploration 1983 DD article, I thought that if possible that Mexico could send an astronaut into earth orbit by 2015.

I also Thought that the way that Mexico could start its own space program would be by a collaboration of pre-existing research going on at the Universidad Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM) (National Autonomous University of Mexico) surviving NASA technicians and scientists trying to continue what they started in the former US.

I really hope you like this idea, and well I also hope I can still propose it. I have other ideas as well that I would like to propose in the near future. Libra-11 (Talk | contribs | block)


 * It sounds feasible to me. Also, you can go ahead and start writing the article, or have someone else write it, before general community approval is given. However, until general approval is given it remains a proposal and cannot be graduated. Caeruleus 16:55, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Given where NASA scientists would have been, there's really no chance of any making it. Virtually all NASA facilities in the USA were hit at least once. Given what they were doing at the time, and the problems just found with Challenger, it's likely they'd have been on base, and, if not, at home nearby, too.

Even White Sands was hit - note the strike on Las Cruces, NM, on the strike list, and that is literally right next to it and actually refers to a strike on White Sands - and the odds of any scientists getting out are really too remote. Between that blast, the El Paso blast, radiation, and the desert in general, it's just too unlikely.

The two people you quoted in the newsbit, there's a pretty good chance that they are dead. The researcher, Robert Zubrin, more likely than not was working in aerospace at the time, and not likely anywhere near Mexico, either, meaning death or more simply distance away from much of anywhere put him out of things. Odds are better for Rodolfo Neri Vela, who was indeed most likely in Mexico, though may have started his training for his spaceflight by then, but I wouldn't assume he would be involved if I were you - his degrees and most of his work seems to lead more towards communications than space. Though, who knows, you may have found something about Zubrin that indicates it is possible. But, it needs it.

Mexico would literally be starting with nothing, other than a base to start research and facility construction at. 2015, or indeed, any time before around 2030 or so, would not at all be realistic for Mexico. And by that time, it's likely that the rest would already have managed it, making it really no point.

I also read on a talk page something about you believing Challenger to have survived. While you are right about it's transit - I believe - being at such an altitude, the EMP blasts would have brought it down. Really not much chance of it taking the impact well, if it did not land in the water.

Mexico starting an agency alongside the other effort, much like the Canadian space program in relation to NASA, that makes things and trains people for it, makes sense. So does launching their own satellites, largely for communications, which Rodolfo Neri Vela would be especially good for. As a primary goal, that makes more sense, and is more realistic, than putting people into space. Then there is no need for that undercurrent or movement stuff, which is, quite honestly, a reach. This, all it is is wanting Mexican satellites, independent of anyone else. That's perfectly understandable and reasonable - call it military purposes, if nothing else.

Lordganon 18:35, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * One thing about survivors is that if one is fairly certain his area is going to be a target, then evacuation becomes a priority. All too often it is assumed that ANYONE in a target area (apart from high officials) would stay put and be destroyed. Evacuation on short notice, of course, leads to chaos. There is no way to know who will escape, so it is easier to assume no one did. That squelches any meaningful story from being written about survivors. That being said, Robert Zubrin received his M.S. in Nuclear Engineering at the University of Washington (Seattle) in 1984. That would mean, in all likelihood, the promising carreer of this 'rocket scientist' was snuffed out in the bombing of that city. Rodolfo Neri Vela, on the other hand, is a good choice. He most likely was working in Mexico in 1983 (becoming a payload specialist in late 1985 in OTL). His work was not just in communications, but in antenna design for satellites and ground stations.


 * The Challenger shuttle was in post flight inspection on September 27, 1983 after a safe night landing on September 5th. Normal protocol, I believe, would have been to fly the craft to Kennedy Space Center before the inspection. From what a Google search found, the craft is prepared for transport (takes about a week) and flown across country making several fuel stops (as much as 3 days). That would get the Challenger to the KSC by September 15, 1983. It would have been in the final days of post-flight inspection when the assembly building would have been destroyed.


 * Had the Challenger been in space, though, it would have been safe, for the blast's shockwaves over the USA and/or Russia would not have reached through the rare atmosphere in the area where they flew. The EMP only works because of the blast's effect on the atmosphere below it. For a similar reason, the Soviet space station in use at the time was not harmed by the nukes in space.


 * As far as a movement 'under the radar,' so to speak, I offered that as a suggestion only to get around the lack of mention of an effort so far in the history of Mexico post-DD. Yes, a 'reach' of sorts, but respecting the desires of Mexicans in a world that seems to have left them behind for the most part. I agree, though, that the nation would not have the resources to put a man into space on its own. I am not sure about whether it would take until 2030 -- almost 50 years! ?? -- to get a man back in space, though. Dreams do not die that easy, and science does not entrophy that fast. It is all a matter of priorities, of course, and politics surely would play a role. I'd say the international effort would be on track to return men to space by 2020 at the latest. Just my opinion, of course, but there it is. SouthWriter 21:26, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Assuming Mexico could develop the necessary technology to launch satellites into space, putting a man into space between 2015 and 2025 is plausible. The technology to launch people into space has been around for 30 years prior to Doomsday and there has been development since then. Maintaining a single human life in space is a feat, but it's not overly complicated. I could see Mexico putting a man in space by 2015, but it would a simple, barebones mission with a small crew that would basically go up and say "We made it." and then come back to Earth. Any longer term or more complicated missions would obviously take many more years to occur. It could even occur earlier if little or no attention was paid to the safety of the astronauts. But if it was done, it would essentially be a wate of money to enhance national pride and international prestige, though the technology to make it possible would aid the Mexican economy and tecnological development. Caeruleus 23:57, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

South, my reference about Challenger was to a note he had left on Brian's page saying that it was in transit between the two places on the plane at the time. Kinda figured it wouldn't be, but had to say what the likely fate would be if it was, lol. Knowing that info, it was definitely in hangar at CC, being studied by engineers, and given what they found wrong, odds are it was a ton more than usual too, lol. As you say, if it has been in space it'd have been fine.

Given that the man graduated with his BS in the early 70s, I thought he'd have done the PhD about 1980. Heh. Must have worked a little bit first somewhere.

Training for NASA missions takes about 20 months, back and forth from Houston. I'm aware of the time gap being longer than 20 months, but we don't know when he started his training. The training taking 20 months doesn't necessarily mean Rodolfo started it 20 months before he left for space and not earlier. But, odds are very good he'd have been in Mexico, so he's good.

Well, the Americans and Soviets only managed it as fast as they did because they took all the German scientists. Seem to recall reading that they both had things sped up by at least 5 years, despite the near-unlimited funding. Most countries that launched satellites did it through one of these powers, or got tech from them. China in 1970 seems to have been the first one otherwise, and they likely had spies to help them, still lagging 12/13 years behind.

Mexico has neither, and rocket formulas weren't something that are out in the open, so to speak. As I said, satellites make a ton of sense, especially for the military.

Note that I was referring to Mexico doing it by 2030, not the world. Specifically mentioned the rest by saying that "it's likely that the rest would already have managed it" by 2030. Won't be any better than the early programs, but I'm sure they'll manage it by 2020, if not by 2015.

Satellites are a lot easier than astronauts. With Astronauts, you not only have to have life-support, and supplies, but you also need to ensure they can come back. Took the Soviets 3 years to do the research, and another to design, Spudnik, with, once again, unlimited resources and German scientist-captives. Add to that that a large majority of space research, technology, and scientists went "poof."

They have to do it all over again, and establish the industry to support it. Then, too, research into rockets in the USA/USSR had started in earnest in the aftermath of the war, though work had begun in the 20s - and took until the mid-1950s to get right. 4 years on top of that for the satellites. With, the unlimited funding and the scientists. Mexico has neither, though we can safely assume the 1920s work is known, since model rockets use that same knowledge and are quite easy to understand.

If we assume a launch date for the first satellite to be about 2018 or so, that's 7 years. The 4 years for the satellites is too much - probably more like one or two. Call it one, since we're being optimistic here. The rockets, took 9-10 years - probably a touch too much, here. I'd say with some being known, and a couple surviving NASA scientists - I'm sure that there would be a couple, though I assume myself they'd be with the other projects, though again, benefit of the doubt here - we can probably cut that in half, give or take. Gives us about 6 years or so..... 2017, which by the time Mexico approves funding and the like, gives us 2018. Add in room for errors, etc., we have a first launch of a satellite anywhere from 2017-2022. More or less, 2018. LoN space teams are, about this time, getting back into space.

On top of that, 3.5 years for the Soviets to get a man into space after Sputnik. That really cannot be rushed, and realistically, would take longer for Mexico, more likely than not, due to funding and industry. With room for errors, we're looking at a 2023-2031 or so range. Probably closer to the end, if they were to even bother. Leaves us around 2030 or so for Mexico to launch its own Astronauts.

By that point, the first LoN space station is likely being put in orbit if it has not been already. If Mexico wants Astronauts, they could already have them long before 2030, with that program - though not their own. Satellites, however, would already be there, and serve much more useful purposes.

Easy choice, in my mind.

Lordganon 06:22, July 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Good analysis, LG. I'd say you have it about right. Mexico, if it has not been working on the program before now, would most likely be up and ready with its contacts with the SAC and the ANZC to go it alone with satellites. Its industry could be a boom to the struggling new nations in North America as well. See what thinking optimistically can do for the time line! :-) SouthWriter 15:42, July 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * About the Shuttle, I wrote the following offline, preparing to post it on Brian's page, but instead figured this would be the best place for it. It has to do with not the Challenger, but its new-born 'baby sister' Discovery.

The Shuttle was at the Orbiter Processing Facility (note picture caption "September 1983") at KSC when the inspection was done, having been transported there at least a week prior to the inspection, which was finishing up on the post-flight inspection. Libra's information, unfortunately, is flawed. Perhaps it is the inspection that was scheduled to be completed on September 26th, and Libra assumed that had been at Edwards.

There would not have been time to move the orbiters in storage at the OPF facilities in Florida before the center was destroyed. Even if Reagan had declared it a priority, it could not have been done. Unfortunately, the two space shuttles there were destroyed. However, remarkably, the Discovery had not left the facilities in Palmdale, CA, where, on August 12th, it had undergone its final testing before overland transport to Edwards Air Force Base in November of 1983. Palmdale is separated from Los Angeles by the San Gabriel Mountain Range and so would be shielded from destruction. There is no telling the fate of the orbiter or anything else after that, but this could be a factor in whatever transpired with Mexico and its involvement in any "space race" in the 21st century of TTL. SouthWriter 16:09, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like what he did, true enough.

Lancaster-Palmdale was hit by its own nuke, unfortunately.

Lordganon 17:24, July 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, all that research shot down by a late entry into the "hit list" (Feb. 25, 2011) by none other that "Mr. Nuke'em" himself - Lordganon!  Seriously, LG, I am not angry but it seems that you slipped in the enlarged list of hits - by far twice as many as the original article had - while no one was looking. I admit, I forgot to check the list when I looked up Palmdale, but for goodness sake, how'd you justify enlarging the list that far without any discernible discussion (I looked)? Just wondering. SouthWriter 18:05, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. When I made it so the California entry could graduate, there was a large number of strikes that I added. Previously, there had only been 5 in the entire state, missing pretty well all the military bases, which obviously wasn't working. It amounts to most cities, etc, and almost all bases in the state, as is the case with pretty well all of the other ones. Something I've done for a few areas, actually, that were very short of targets. Note that I did go through proper graduation protocol with this.

For Lancaster-Palmdale, it was pretty simple. Not only is Edwards AFB just a few miles outside of the two city limits, but Air Force Plant 42, a major - and that's a bit of an understatement, to be honest - aerospace facility, is right between Lancaster and Palmdale. Add to that the civic population, and there's a big juicy target, that levels both cities.

Lordganon 19:44, July 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * I had forgotten about the archived proposal discussions. I see where you were quite active in the adding of a strike on every single base in the state - it seems - on a first strike basis. It was overkill, but then, so is the whole premise of this time line. It was not just you, of course, that pushed Arstar. Mitro brought it up, and Zack jumped right in. I must have been asleep or something when the discussion was going on! :-)


 * Anyway, what's done is done. Finding the newly minted space shuttle was a pleasant surprise, but losing it to a masochist USSR first strike list that includes every single possible strike on th FEMA map, is almost too much to take in. Why did California have to be different than other places where some FEMA strikes were avoided. What happened to our discussion on primary, secondary and tertiary targets? All I can say is, Wow! I don't want to change what has been written, but sheesh! :-(


 * SouthWriter 20:45, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, far from every base. Just that California is so full of the blasted things that it seems that way, lol - the number of strikes on that list now is only 31 - not including multiple ones on LA and SD, mind, but that's minor - which on the map would be the number in the Greater LA area alone, adding maybe one or two from nearby. Believe me when I say that there was a great deal of discretion used in making that list. But, as I said, the Palmdale one was unrelated to that, with the aerospace facilities.

Perfectly willing to remove targets from the list if you find one that you don't think is reasonable, though.

Lordganon 02:05, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

McDonald's
I'm thinking about writing a page about a Virginian businessman bringing back the old McDonald's resteraunt chain. What I need to know is how many of the franchises existing at the time survived Doomsday. And just how many I can have under the company's full extent in the present day.

Yank 02:33, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Well, so far this is what I've found:

1983 McDonald’s restaurants are now located in 32 countries around the world. The new Hamburger University opens in Oak Brook, Illinois. There are 7,778 restaurants at year end. Chicken McNuggets are introduced into all domestic restaurants.

So, 32 countries around the world. and arround 7700 restaurants when the bombs fell. Just about any decent sized survivor town would have had at least one franchise. I'll look around to see just how the food distribution network worked. SouthWriter 03:47, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

From Wikipedia, the headquarters is in Oak Brook, IL, a suburb of Chicago and most probably destroyed. The franchises, especially in the US, are mostly joint ventures and agreements, with only 15% owned directly by the Corporation. Also, about food distribution:


 * "As a matter of policy, McDonald's does not make direct sales of food or materials to franchisees, instead organizing the supply of food and materials to restaurants through approved third party logistics operators."

Long story short, a particular franchise might be able to retain the logo, and the food chain, after the Corporate headquarters is destroyed. With restaurants in 32 countries, you can be sure that the authorities in those countries would have a hand in the operations of surviving stores. As for someone 'taking over' the franchise, I'm sure some of the Corporate hierarchy would be of the 'jet set' and have been visiting or even living in the southern hemisphere by 1983 (Kroc died in OTL in January of 1984 and he was not the active leader then). I would suggest that the Virginian who wishes to become a mover and shaker in the world of 'fast food' contact some of the international big wigs still running the restaurants in the twenty or so nations not bombed out of the running. SouthWriter 04:03, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed with South.

Though, I should add, that barring proof that one of the hierarchy survived, it seems like the ANZC branches would be the headquarters of the majority of surviving branches. But, there will be regional McDonald's chains still, much like several companies have done atl, in that they fragmented.

Lordganon 09:00, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Why not have your Virginian businessman call his group of franchises McDonald's, while allowing for the probability of others in the former U.S. to do the same? BrianD 03:47, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia has a list of countries in which McDonalds has restaurants. Also the McDonalds corporate site lists international leadership. The bios seem to indicate that regional directors did indeed live outside of the United States. The list indicates that the only South American nation to have McDonalds in 1983 was Brazil. However Central America had franchises (Costa Rica, Panama, and El Salvadore). Mexico was late in the getting its first McDonald's in OTL (Oct. 29, 1985). Australia had the franchises starting in 1971, and New Zealand in 1976. There were franchises in the Nordic Union (Sweden and Denmark, with one scheduled to open in Norway on November 18, 1983) and in the Alpine Confederation (Switzerland and Austria). There were franchises throughout the Pacific area, from Japan to Malaysia, many of which could come under the international oversight of McDonalds Australia (or ANZC in TTL).

Perhaps a general page on McDonald's would be in line, with McDonald's of Virginia becoming a division of the international organization after coming in contact with the ANZC. The link shows all the stores in OTL at the present time. I figure that whoever organizes the stores under one corporation in Virginia would do it before knowing anything about whether the international chain existed. SouthWriter 17:53, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

"Fundamentalist Preacher Predicts Doom"
I was reading this on the WCRB news page, and it kinda scared me; I mean will North America be destroyed at some point? Because what that preacher ranted about seemed kinda insane. Riley.Konner 21:02, August 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * This was presented as a secular news report of the apparent prediction of the earthquake that shook the east on August 23. It seemed insane to the reporter, so it was called a 'rant.' But then, the earthquake came soon thereafter. The 'apostles' of Olmsted are sent out by the theocratic government there, but speak on the behalf of God and are not spokesman for their earth-bound superiors. This is strictly TTL, and the preacher is imaginary. It was my way of including the earthquake's impact on TTL. I await Yank or Brian's imput as to reporting 'from the ground,' in East Virginia. SouthWriter 15:05, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Pages up for adoption
I'm going to get very busy in the next few months (government cuts at where I work, etc) anyway i'm looking to put some of my DD pages up for adoption to cut my workload on this site, these being:
 * Libya
 * USSR
 * Escaped exotic animals
 * Niger

I'm also turning over pages, previously adopted by me, back up for adoption
 * Japan
 * Egypt

Anyone interested please conact me via my talk page--Smoggy80 18:40, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Escaped Exotic Animals can likely just get turned over to the community. I'll talk to you about Egypt. Lordganon 07:42, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Also Libya, Egypt and Japan have already been adopted out, this still leaves the USSR. I'm going to keep hold of Niger and unless anyone has any problems with it start doing some more work on it with some unification of tribes in the south--Smoggy80 16:35, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Naming Conventions
I'm thinking of expanding on some of the characters and comic books published by Omega Level Entertainment and am wondering how to deal with the article names. On Wikipedia a lot of the caracters use common names and the article indicate them as comic characters by formatting as "Cyclops (comics)" or such. As this would only be part of the 1983: Doomsday timeline, it already requires (1983: Doomsday) in the title. So how would I go about denoting that its a comic character while also maintaining timeline naming conventions?Oerwinde 08:50, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

About the only way around that I've seen on here is Smoggy's article. That'd be an option.

Past that..... well, it would look a little wrong, but you could still do the brackets. Maybe use hyphens or "...in..."

Then too, mind, most of the ones like that on Wikipedia really would not be an issue here. I'm sure there's a couple where it would matter, but I figure there won't be many.

Cyclops (comics) (1983: Doomsday)

Way I figure it, that is best.

Lordganon 09:58, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Lancaster Trading Company
Okay, first off, this isn't a proposal, just an idea. Basically, every time I look at a map of Lancaster's territory I can't help but notice that it has a lot of ports for its size. Excluding the abandoned docks in Preston, there's a total of three of them and good sized ones at that. Therefore I thought that I should try to capitalise on such a large asset by having Lancaster doing a fair bit of trade, both with it's own exports and as a sort of middleman for European countries who for one reason or another can't do their own shipping, thereby bringing a lot of money into Lancaster. The problem is that despite looking through various nations profiles I can't work out who the best ones to do business with would be. The most likely canditate I could spot was Georgia, since they need fossil fuels and one of Lancaster's exports happens to be coal, but given that I'm not sure how to get there by ship that may be a moot point. Therefore I thought I'd best ask for advice on the matter. I just hope that it's forthcoming.Tessitore 22:24, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'd forgotten than Ven put that in the article. Heh.

Ignore the Georgia line, Tess. I've found and already used a solution elsewhere that Ven did not know about. Note, too, that they have coal. They'd take oil/gas, but coal isn't really needed.

You could probably send it into the Baltic, mind. I know at least Novgorod would probably appreciate it, even if you have to drop it off in Finland or Estonia and it be hauled overland.

Lordganon 01:08, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

 Yeah, Novgorod could work, for one thing Lancaster could probably do with a supply of Baltic timber (as could other British survivour nations to whom they could sell it on to). Speaking of which, does Novgorod's territory include Vyborg? If it does then it'd make things a lot easier.Tessitore 17:17, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

We could work something out in the regard of tea. I'll have a think about it. Georgia really lacks a port of any size, mind, though they are working on that.

Vyborg is the capital of Karelia. Closest Novgorod comes to that, in terms of areas under complete control, is the southern reaches of Lake Ladoga and the ruins of St. Petersburg.

But, as with trade with the rest of the Nordic Union, goods can be hauled overland by sledge or carts easy enough. They have a semi-permanent garrison set up at the ruins of Sosnovy Bor which has some port facilities in the summer. The wood would do you nicely, for the coal.

Lordganon 07:18, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS=

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

Obsolete article resurrected by Arstar. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question concerning this article, who currently is the caretaker? I ask because amongst my other work I have been studying up on Iceland out of curiosity and feel I could flesh this out more so it would be realistic. However, I don't wish to intrude on someone else's project. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 15:43, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it is Arstar. I think if you ask though he would be willing to let you takeover. I do believe he is trying to shorten his list of proposals. Mitro 19:32, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I spoke with him and he gave me the okay to move forward.--Fxgentleman 03:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thought I'd leave this note here - that I left on its talk page quite some time ago - but the strike list on this article isn't plausible. Lordganon 07:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

An obsolete article resurrected by myself. Its a brigand group made up of former fraternity guys who banded together shortly after Doomsday when chaos broke out across Central Illinois. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Defunct state, armed faction sans territory, something else? Benkarnell 23:06, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * More like what I am doing with the Chinks in Eureka. Just another group of survivors who became hard cases. Mitro 04:20, November 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello, I have a few ideas that in process that would help expand and grow the Illini Republic area. I may start contributing soon, I just need to finalize how I am going to approach the topic. I am open to discuss, contribute, collaborate, or critique.
 * Jroak 06:48, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Considering our rules, the only thing you're doing is discussing. Lordganon 07:24, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

The history of the Illini Republic can be made in narrative form, with bits and pieces of documentation and documentaitonal clippings chronicalling post-Doomsday events. Based on the Doomsday history of Illinois, a timeline of events can be established chronicaling the evolution of a midwest unversity town into a land of lawlessness. I am approaching this from three lines of ATL historical narrative.

1. At the time of Doomsday, a senior undergraduate student at the University of Illinois, who is originally from Chicago, now finds himself in the role of a student, refugee, graduate student researcher, and later one of the last official administrators of the University. The role of the University during this time, its attempts to stay neutral, and an evacuation of "knowledge," both books and people, to Purdue University in West Lafayette, IN shortly before the local civil government collapsed in 1986.

2. An Illinois Central Gulf railroad engineer whose knowledge of the region's current and former rail routes allows for resource scavenging and for those who want out, a less vulnerable way to travel than staying on the main roads. With help from other surviving Champaign-Urbana (C-U for short) railroad workers, many of whom would have been incapacitated from the strike at Chanute AFB, if they had been on yard duty that night, prove valuable in this capacity. Air Force technicians who were in Champaign at the time also prove helpful to keeping basic machinery usable. But not everyone wants to play nice with this collective knowhow of knowledge.

3. Bulletins and minutes from post-Doomsday news spreads and campus meetings.

Premises (Still formulating details)

The C-U area would have been immensely affected by a strike at Chanute Air Force Base in Rantoul, IL. As a training base for aircraft, ICBM, and eletronics maintainance, its target value would to be deny repair and recovery. I'm going to life hard and say it received two hits in the 100Kt range.

Aside from flash and blast damage, if the winds were from the south, this would blow some of the short term fallout away from C-U. I'll deal with this detail when I find out what weather conditions were like that day.

Any college town (and rural area) for that matter will have more than its fair share of 20 year old vehicles. 1983 C-U will be no different. Vehicles that survived the EMP and can run are highly sought after. Unfortunately this will create some initial problems in post-Doomsday.

Refugees from Decatur would probably find it easier to come to C-U via I-72. Refugees from the Chicago area are few in number and start to die relatively quickly. Refugees from Indianapolis travel west on I-74. Those who settle in Danville have fare better than those in the C-U area.

Any thoughts? Jroak24.1.29.37 07:34, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

The majority of that is things that aren't possible, or are at best logic holes. The three points are not possible.

Past that....

Winds go east-northeast. Meaning that the area gets whacked with radiation from Springfield and Decatur.

Only blast, and likely bigger than that.

No fuel, no vehicles. Simple.

Only survivors from Decatur could get there, at all. And that's kinda doubtful

And you've missed the point of this. These are brigands in the ruins. With little to nothing to do with the previous inhabitants.

See previous statement, too.

Lordganon 07:57, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 15:00, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I plan on contributing to this page. Benkarnell 23:03, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take suggestions, and I know you asked me a while back to edit it but I'd rather see what your plans are before you edit it. Arstar 21:48, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take suggestions, and I know you asked me a while back to edit it but I'd rather see what your plans are before you edit it. Arstar 21:48, December 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've posted my general idea to . Benkarnell 17:54, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 16:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is this going anywhere? Lordganon 14:59, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be willing to allow someone to work the kinks out of it. I just have one request. I request that it is not to be annexed by another nation.

Yank 15:05, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose in light of that, and time passed, would there be objections to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon 05:13, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Put up for adoption. Lordganon 11:44, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 15:00, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Could someone rename the file "Gettysburg"? I'm having trouble renaming files at the moment. Arstar 22:26, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Done.

Lordganon 22:30, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. If someone is interested in adopting this page, let me know. My only guidelines is that its going to be based in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and is a recently reestablished city-state. Arstar 22:57, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

I've been looking into making a state here for a while - but those conditions dont fly with my plans. A shame.

Irregardless, my research into the area shows that the radiation from strikes in Maryland and DC would have passed to either side, for the most part. The area would have been lightly irradiated, but by no means rendered uninhabitable by it.

Lordganon 23:21, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

...Which is why its recently resettled, but recently can mean a lot of things. Any reinhabitation happening after 1999 is my only request. Arstar 01:43, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

I more-so meant that there'd be no need to resettle it, as no one would have left originally.

No matter.

Lordganon 01:51, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone interested in adopting this article? --Zack 03:11, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

I know LG has shown interest in it, but I don't think he's gotten around to working on it so far. Arstar 22:30, December 25, 2010 (UTC)

Like I said before, my idea for this nation doesn't fit with your requirements/guidelines. Without those I'd gladly take a crack at it when I have time. Lordganon 13:58, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

My feelings on putting an article up for adoption before it becomes canon is that whoever adopts it can do whatever they want with it.Oerwinde 01:53, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Smoggy. Mitro 03:34, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 03:42, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Armachedes.

Lordganon 05:26, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Seoul
It is a city proposal by me, PitaKang. PitaKang 01:24, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's ready. Any objections? PitaKang- (Talk|Contribs) 21:51, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

Same one as I've told you several times now with regards to the terrorists. Lordganon 05:08, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

So.... no more objections? PitaKang- (Talk|Contribs) 22:30, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * What does LG have to say? Mitro 03:05, March 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * He's fixed it, though sloppily. Lordganon 11:05, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you guys have any suggestions to make it better? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:29, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

There's now a whole series of objections to this on its talk page. Lordganon 13:13, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed those objections, so are there any more? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:20, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

You have fixed one of those objectives, and smoggy just gave you a couple more. The article is still somewhat unrealistic in its wording and what it seems to say. You also still neglect to mention that the entire region is under military control, and that your presented view of the area is thus too... pleasant, I suppose, is a good word. 

Also, Desert was indeed correct about much of the article being things that should be on the Korea article. They should be removed to that location.

Lordganon 02:25, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Is this page going to be amalgamated into the Korea page? as it doesn't really add anything that is not already on the Korea page (in fact in places it contradicts the Korea page)--Smoggy80 16:32, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Parts of it are going to have to be, but most of it would form the article still. Pita seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, however. Lordganon 16:59, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

The_Former_Beatles_(1983:Doomsday)
I started an article on the actives of the Former Beatles(Paul, Ringo,George) following the 1983 Doomsday Event. I hope to finish it soon. Is this an acceptable topic to write about? If not please let me know. (Jer1818)


 * I've moved this section from the archive page to this one. Let's see where the page goes, since for now it's just a recap of the OTL biographies up to 1983. Benkarnell 04:56, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Welcome, Jer! I've made a few comments on the article's talk page. BrianD 06:49, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I updated Paul's and Ringo's Postdoomsday activities...read them and let me know what you think Jer1818 22:16, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Issaquah-Snoqualmie
I made an article stub for a survivor community in the Cascades near where I live. The geography of the area forms a pretty protected valley in Issaquah (It's located between two mountains and home construction on those mountains had yet to begin in earnest in 1983 - they arrived as a result of the Microsoft boom. This also means that the population would be smaller than in OTL, since Issaquah's growth spurt didn't happen until this past decade.) There are a lot of highlands and whatnot in Issaquah proper to protect the city from the shockwaves 25 miles away in Seattle, although some radiation would probably occur there too.

Snoqualmie itself is located further up the mountains, near the town of North Bend. Don't worry, I'm not trying to turn North Bend into a massive empire like *cough* certain people did, but its protected up in the mountains and is far enough away from Seattle to suggest that it would have survived almost completely intact. I propose Issaquah-Snoqualmie as a minor conurbation of small communities stretching through the Snoqualmie pass from up in the mountains to the foothills. Pasco is pretty far from this area but likely enjoys healthy trade with Issaquah-Snoqualmie thanks to their outposts in central Washington (Ellensburg), as is established in canon. Again, to reiterate, I'm not trying to transform the Issaquah-North Bend corridor into a mighty Cascade empire - it would be a self-sufficient, hectic and maybe even wild-west style survivor town in most of the 1980's saddled with refugees from the Seattle/Bellevue area.

On the note of Victoria, I doubt that at least until the mid-2000's or even now, they would have bothered crossing an irradiated wasteland to get to Issaquah, even though the communities between Issaquah and Snoqualmie technically fall within their claimed territory.

Issaquah, culturally, was much more of a rural and exoburban city in the 1980's, even though today it's full of rich assholes (My personal bias. Fuck those guys.)

KingSweden 19:53, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, looking at the much more zoomed in map on the Victoria History article itself I think it could work in some form. Issaquah is on the border line, and the other community is definitely outside of it. Though, that map is a little old, so.... Definitely could have lived through the blasts, etc. mind - radiation would have went to sea. Oer, thoughts? Lordganon 22:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've got no problems. Victoria is too busy with the Olympia and Aberdeen areas and bringing the newly aquired south into the fold, along with establishing a border with Astoria to worry about some small mountain towns.Oerwinde 09:54, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Superior Election Articles

 * 1984 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1986 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1994 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1992 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1996 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)
 * 2000 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)
 * 2004 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)
 * 2008 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)
 * 2012 Republic of Superior Presidential Election (1983: Doomsday)

Though created by an anon, they allegedly follow canon and were originally red linked. Mitro 17:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

The first two have no basis in canon at all - virtually no reference to numbers and political positions of the two parties or the like with the congress of Superior exist for that era that actually indicate things one way or the other like this. The independent numbers are.... not possible, either. The 1994 one is the only one with some actual accuracy as it currently stands, though even it has to be massively re-written. Lordganon 20:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well I think we should mark the first two obsolete and put the last up for adoption. Any objections? Mitro 18:31, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention to the newsbits and edits with Superior I've been doing lately, but I'm adopting these articles, and am going to be adding many more of them. Lordganon 00:11, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

President ones first, then congress, then governors. Lalalala.... 07:15, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

All right, I believe I'm done with the Presidential elections. The 2012 one is ongoing, obviously, but should be graduated too, I think.

Any objections to their graduation?

Lordganon 14:46, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Detectivekenny. Mitro 17:24, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Just so the community knows, I've renamed this to Pearl River Delta, which is going to be a general article for all the cities and towns in the area. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:22, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Crimson. Mitro 17:25, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Sunkist. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Article by South. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

I've worked on a few paragraphs. Let me know what you think. SouthWriter 01:46, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

This is an article by an ambitious and energetic young man going by the user name "God Bless the United States of America." We call him GB for short. He is very young and just learning the ropes, so let's all try to help him in this first attempt at a full article in 1983DD. This is a small isolated community on the coast of North Carolina. It needs help so as not to run all over what we know about Elizabeth City and the Outer Banks (OB being primarily "mine" so far). SouthWriter 14:07, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks South for getting the word out, well anyone can edit the article, I see it as a chance to be another collabertive article for the senior editors to join in to, and allow us young bloods to help. God Bless the United States of America 03:18, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Godzilla
An article on the Godzilla franchise by GB. Lordganon 14:10, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

The Ipswich Incident
Ongoing article. Semi-collaboration between Verence and I. Fegaxeyl 21:27, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

A Proposal by vegas that is attempting to fill in the "gap" mentioned by Brian earlier. Given all the work he already did in Botswana, and the current info on South Africa, it is really something I can't consider plausible in its current form. Lordganon 22:32, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

In the New Britain talk page we discussed that the Azanian League is centered around Johannesburg, and while nothing has been written on it, the AL's existence is pretty much considered Canon. So this could possibly be altered to be a constituent state of the AL, but currently doesn't fit.Oerwinde 08:09, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

An idea I've had since long ago for an ex-Soviet survivor state. Fed (talk) 01:41, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Proposal by GB not previously put here. It's got..... major issues, but is indeed a start. Lordganon 11:18, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Is GB still the owner of this article? I have read through it and would like to take it over and expand it based on research I have been doing and also bring it into line with what I am doing for Delmarva. If anyone can let me know, thanks.--Fxgentleman 13:24, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he is. And you are definitely the person who should take over and do the article. Lordganon 14:27, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Survivor state in former Slovakia, by Jnjaycpa. Here's hoping that it doesn't end up like all of his other proposals and he actually works on it. Lordganon 08:00, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Feg and Vegas. Lordganon 11:32, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

It appears to be all finished now, so any objections to graduation?--Smoggy80 14:54, August 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * One thing I noticed: No casualties or losses mentioned or listed on the template. I think it needs to be fleshed out just a bit, but I don't know much about 'battle articles' (the only war I did was incorporated into the main article).


 * Before we graduate this one, and the one below it, I thought I'd point out the irony of the two being adjacent: The Invasion of Kent & Superman! :-)


 * SouthWriter 04:56, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. And, too, the invasion goes from 15th May, 2011 to 2nd June, 2011, but only May 15th-17th is written down. Not even any idea what the consequences/results are, either.

Basically, it is over, but there's no events listed right now. We could probably get away with stubbing it, but... I would really rather avoid that.

Lordganon 06:54, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Article by a new user for the Nordic Union member of Denmark. Currently, it is horribly formatted and filled with errors in general. Lordganon 05:00, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

Article by me about post-Doomsday Tanganyika. Caeruleus 20:35, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:08, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

The idea that all of these states would have good relations with the Tanganyika remnant and join that organization makes no sense at all.

Same goes for the situation in most of these states. Have a good, hard, long look at where the economic power in the nation actually is, and where is actually poor: it's not how you show it, at all.

Lordganon 08:29, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * They have good relations with the Republic of Tanganyika for two reasons. First, they have to if they want access to their ports. With Mozambique having a civil war to the south and Kenya allying its export policy with that of Tanganyika's, if they want access to wider markets, they have to be nice to Tanganyika. Second, Tanganyika rejected its goal of reunification in 1990, which removed the immediate threat it presented to the newly indepedent states.


 * Tanganyika controls the ports, the commercial capital, most of the region's industry, and the only operational gold mine. At the very least, Tanganyika would be wealthiest because it could tax any exported through its territory. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. Caeruleus 16:32, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you have a good long look at your EAC article. It specifically states that unifying the area is its long-term goal. So no, it has not rejected it.

Ports are overrated whenever you write something. Note the big lake in the northeast? The population around that lake is self-sustaining, and not dependent on the rest of the area or those ports at all. Largest inland fishery in the world. There is no economic pressure that can be done to them, for they have no need to export.

Operational Gold mine? No gold mines were operational at the time. Most only opened in the late 1990s, and the others went out of business by the 1950s. And they would all be in the breakaway states, too.

Commercial Capital means little - and that city would be where most deaths and refugees occur. With exports and imports gone or sharply reduced, the "commercial" aspect goes.

So does industry, which is almost non-existant. Especially since until recently, there was basically nothing in that direction. Most of the exports and agriculture are from the breakaway states. Those on the lake are going to have a higher GNP ratio than Tan~ itself. It's also dependent on them for food, which you failed to notice.

Who's got the economic power? In some regards, Tan~ has some but overall? Not them, by a long shot.

And all that avoids entirely the aspect of relations in general. These states revolted. And you are trying to make them have good relations. That is ridiculous. A few of them, sure. But all? That is just not possible. Each and every time a nation has broken up, especially by force, not all of the parts have been friendly. And yet, you have them all loving each other. That's impossible and makes no sense whatsoever.

Lordganon 02:04, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Please read through the new updates. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:17, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement, though you missed the point about economic power, and population.

The states on the lake are not dependent on the rest of the nation, in any real way. The population overall fails to include any real number of deaths or refugees.

Lordganon 06:30, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * The economic power portions have been revised. The poulation is fine. It's 10 million less than OTL, which is more than enough to count for the number of deaths and refugees. Caeruleus 07:20, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No. Half the article reads like it is an article on the remnant, the other half reads like an article on the area. If it is overall, that may work as a population. But for the remnant, not in the least. By and large, it appears to be the remnant.

Lordganon 08:01, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the total population of the entirety of Greater Tanganyika. Caeruleus 08:19, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Then you need to re-write the article. That is only about a quarter of what it actually says. Most of it is an article on The remnant. Lordganon 09:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It progresses from talking about the remnant to the survivor states, while remaining somewhat focused on the remnant in the context of the other survivor states. After a certain point, "Tanganyika" stops referring to the remnant and begins referring to the region. I'll go through and change references to the region to Greater Tanganyika" in order to clarify that. Caeruleus 13:34, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better. Lordganon 19:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Article by me about Kenya. Caeruleus 19:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:06, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

That this remains intact while most of Africa collapses, despite the major drought just after Doomsday, makes no sense. Earlier on, you had a couple of the provinces go. And yet, then you had them re-join. That is not plausible.

Lordganon 08:33, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And, to add, there's several statements in it, such as "largest economy in East Africa" which are suspect, and probably not true at all. Lordganon 08:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the largest economy in East Africa OTL and that would hold true here as well.


 * As for the drought, droughts don't necessarily cause a collapse of government. The only thing that is assured to happen is a higher death toll for the duration of the drought. During droughts, Kenya does need food aid, but it still produces enough to feed a majority of its population. At most, only a few million have ever needed food aid and, even without aid, the situation could still be handled by the government. Caeruleus 16:04, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, you don't make statements like that. Ever. And, for the record, it is very likely that they are not the largest economy. With the reformation and such that occurred in Ethiopia, it is likely that it, Mozambique, or Madagascar hold the title anyways. Especially given the economic aspects relied on in Kenya, which would have collapsed the economy quickly.

You'll note that I did not say it collapsed. A dictatorship, with a coup attempt barely a year prior, in a multi-ethnic - very multi-ethnic - state with regional divisions. Otl, with massive relief getting sent to them, half of the herds died, and massive amounts of crops. More than half the country is drought-prone. The blasts are on record as warming the earth slightly, making it a touch worse. And, the drought ran from 1983 until 1985, too, throughout all of East Africa. To boot, after that period there was massive floods to make the effect even worse.

http://worldvisionnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/horn-of-africa-drought-map.png

and

http://writingtowellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/horn-of-africa-drought-map-29-july.jpg

While the two maps are from modern droughts, they show the at-risk areas well, in combination. That has long been the same. Think about it.

You have a few million starving people. And no food to give them. Did you know that the average person is only three meals away from civil disobedience? Do the math. Atl, they are going to have trouble feeding the army. Good luck keeping stability like that.

Collapse outright? Not likely. Remain whole? That's crazy.

Lordganon 05:03, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I've made some changes. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement. But you fail to actually take the droughts into effect, at all. Lordganon 06:31, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * There's not much to be said about the droughts other than that they happened and had some effects. Caeruleus 07:15, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Not what I mean. You do not go into details about its effects, and mention it in passing, for the most part. Not only that, but a population 2 million lower, only? A fair portion of the area is constantly fought over, a few massive droughts happened, along with general chaos, and only two million lower than otl? Not plausible in any fashion.

Lordganon 08:05, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I made a minor adjustment to the population. Still, nothing really needs to really be elaborated on about the drought. It happened, there was a famine, and obviously some people died and/or suffered because of it, which contributed to political instability. What else would you like included? Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you've not gotten the point. You just mention it. It's like a non-event. That just does not work. Lordganon 09:42, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a drought. They happen. It wasn't some seismic event. What happened and what it did are pretty basic. Do you want me to include specific information about what areas were affected and death tolls and such? Caeruleus 13:38, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A massive drought, causing many deaths and society-wide problems. And you just mention it. It's not a question of figures - though some sort of those is a must - but actually mentioning more than "it happened." Currently, you fail to do so. Lordganon 19:21, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better, but now you've made it sound like droughts never happen again. They will. Lordganon 21:57, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Article by an anon about the former state. Actually pretty good, only a couple minor things wrong with it. Lordganon 08:10, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Article by an anon. Only a single sentence, absolutely nothing else. Lordganon 14:34, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Brandon filling in the gap that's been around for this place for a while. Lordganon 02:21, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Article by GB, in the Channel Islands of California. Needs a ton of work, however. Lordganon 03:46, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this needs a ton of work. GB has asked me to oversee the development of this article due to his needing to concentrate on school work. I read the talk page, and the San Nicolas Island article on Wikipedia. The concept is challenging, to say the least. GB's only request is that it remain loyal to the CRUSA and eventually becoming a part of the USA. It seems much too small to pass as a state, much less a 'nation,' so it is going to have to end up 'attached' to some part of a willing Californian nation-state that joins the USA. I'm open to suggestions. SouthWriter 01:46, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Far as I know, the government at Placerville is the only one with any interest in the new USA, though that depends on how factions in the MSP play out. Lordganon 05:34, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. That's the "California" that matters anyway, as far as re-establishing a successor state goes. I have done some work on the article, bringing early contact with Mexico (via a plane out of Baja) and the rescue of about a hundred refugees stranded on uninhabitable Santa Barbara Island. It's going to take a lot of work just to make the island produce crops. Anyway, I am up way too late already. SouthWriter 05:47, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the name of the article to "Pacifica (1983: Doomsday)" and the 'long form' is now "United Islands of Pacifica." As a result of this article, I am creating another article which I am inserting below as a new proposal.

Avalon (1983: Doomsday)
This is an article I created to go along with Pacifica. The town becomes the name of the city-state that encompases the whole island known in our time line as "Santa Catalina Island." This city-state can stand alone if Pacifica fails to be canonized. SouthWriter 18:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Small state in central England, by Smoggy and Mumby. Lordganon 03:46, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Crim. A literal ton of problems, mind. Lordganon 03:46, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

An article by myself. Caeruleus 19:12, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

It is still ridiculously impossible. Simply put, it is not plausible that a bunch of breakaway states would agree to this when the major power is the one they split from militarily and the eventual goal of the organization is integration.

That is not plausible, at all. Some, maybe. But all, and many for reasons that make no sense locally? Not plausible.

And, you have no authority at all to include Zanzibar in this at all.

Lordganon 08:27, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And none of that changes with Kenya helping to "convince" them, either. Lordganon 08:30, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

The current goal of the organization is economic integration, which is desirable to all the states in the region. The coastal states want access to the resources of the inland states and the inland states need access to the ports of the coastal states for trade. The ultimate goal of political unification is far off and may never actually happen. Just because it's a stated goal does not mean that's the reason they joined or that they expect it to happen. Plus, the EAC is a regional embodiment of PanAfricanism, an ideology that is strong among the regional elite. Even if the organization is particularly popular, the political elite in several of these countries would push for membership, like with the OTL EAC and other regional supranational organizations in Africa. Caeruleus 16:18, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Really? Pan-Africanism? Do you have any idea at all how inflated that concept is? It would seem not. And, for the record, the political elite in the area otl do not support the concept - that will remain true here.

No. The stated goal of it, as it says on the article itself is economic and political integration. Which is precisely why many of the little states will avoid it like the plague. Little nation-states, joining a political organization whose eventual stated goal is political integration with a nation that they revolted from - that just doesn't work. At all.

Even without that being the stated goal, that is just not plausible. A few of the remnants, maybe. But all of them? That doesn't work, at all. Have a good look at that type of thing, overall, and you'll find that many of them cannot stand each other. Either they hate the remnant of the nation they revolted from, or one another. End result is the same. Which you have failed to understand or include, at all.

As already established, the inland states have no need for the coast, and vice-versa.

Lordganon 05:36, September 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I went through and made some changes. Any continued objections? Caeruleus 03:16, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you still fail to get the point about the states on the lakes - more so, Lake Victoria. They have little to no need for the coast, at all.

This also cannot graduate, sensibly, until the nations do.

Lordganon 06:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I edited the portion about the importance of the ports. If there's nothing else, this will graduate when the other articles do. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No, you removed it. That does not change the fact that they do not need them in any form, and that the article entirely fails to get that concept. Lordganon 09:50, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * The article isn't about the ports of East Africa. Since including them as a reason for Tanganyika's economic superiority was overstated, nothing else needs to be said about them once that portion was removed. Caeruleus 13:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

You frequently use words like "inevitable." While the port sections were removed, the article still reads like that is the reason for joining. At the very least, no motive is given. It also still sounds like economic reasons are why things are happening, which as shown is not. the case. Lordganon 19:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Economic reasons are why things are happening. Lowering trade barriers and increasing cooperation will result in accelerated economic growth in the region, regardless of whether or not the ports are particularly important. That's the principle reason most of these states are joining. There are other reasons, like security aid for Kagera and pro-reunification leanings for Ruvuma, but the economic advantages remain a major reason for membership. Caeruleus 18:46, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

You are not getting the point. It still reads like pressure is being applied, yet there is no pressure to apply. And, again, the use of words like "inevitable." Lordganon 01:21, October 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * The inevitable comment is made in specific reference to the future direction of the TFTA, not the EAC. Other than that, there are no references to pressure being applied. Caeruleus 03:26, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what that word is in reference to, at all. You use other words that mean the same blasted thing throughout, as well. The whole thing reeks of it. Lordganon 06:43, October 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you're talking about. It doesn't reak of that, at all. Caeruleus 14:42, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Oblivious, as usual, then. You are continually referring to future things in a definite manner that would be speculation. That doesn't fly. Lordganon 01:11, October 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not. The only future things the article refers to are in the "Future Developments" section, which makes perfect sense. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about. Caeruleus 22:33, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Again, you're failing to get the point. You are referring to things as definite. Doesn't work, or make any sense, especially in the future developments section. Lordganon 07:20, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

An article by myself after the post-Doomsday Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation. Any objections? Caeruleus 06:47, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

How on earth can an inland nation, more or less cut off from the outside world, especially one this poor, have any real increase in manufacturing abilities, or industry? Simply put, it won't. It would decrease. As in no fuel, or materials to make such things with.

You ignore entirely why the white population was leaving. And what would happen to them, being forced to stay.

That population is 100% unrealistic. Not only is that almost higher than the population of the entire country otl, but also ignores one simple fact: AIDS exists, and would be far worse.

Lordganon 08:22, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Small scale growth in industry, through the replication of existing industry, is possible even in relative isolation, though Zimbabwe still had access to the outside world through Mozambique. While the basic technology wouldn't have advanced much, if at all, since Doomsday. They have access to native and neighboring supplies to expand existing industry. I will clarify that section.


 * Actually, the population is fairly accurate. The OTL population doesn't include refugees that reside outside the country, most of whom fled during the 2000s with the economic chaos in the country. I accounted for the death toll during the two civil wars, kept the White population, and factored in the lack of refugees. I will revisit the figures though.


 * White Zimbabweans left because they lamented their loss of political dominance and feared what could happen. While low-level racism and civil strife existed, the mass, state-driven discrimination they feared didn't occur until the late 1990s OTL with the land seizures, which didn't occur in North Zimbabwe. Being forced to stay, White Zimbabweans would contribute to the nation regardless because their own prosperity depends on the prosperity of the entire nation. I'll also clarify those passages though.


 * As for AIDS, the first case of AIDS in Zimbabwe was in 1985, after Doomsday. With the collapse of global trade and travel, the virus would spread much more slowly. I will investigate more about that first reported case and AIDS's expansion paterns. However, the AIDS epidemic wouldn't be much worse because even in OTL, the problem was largely ignored until the early 2000s and Zimbabwe's health care system collapsed in the mid-2000s. Caeruleus 13:24, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

First reported case. In a time that AIDS cases went unreported, and almost nothing was known about it. By the end of the 1980s, 10% of the population of Zimbabwe had it. I suggest you look into how long these things went unidentified. The first recorded case in Africa - in retrospect, mind, from persevered samples - was in 1959. It's believed that one may have happened in the late 50s, too. I'm sure you can guess how rare preserved samples are. Spread to NA in about 1970, and existed in West African ports at that time.

To think that it was not present in Zimbabwe in 1983 is very foolish on your part. And without campaigns in the area against it and methods - imported methods - to help prevent it, it's going to be as bad or worse.

Your population is horrifically out to lunch.

How on earth do you get the idea that they have contact outside their small area of Africa? Mozambique barely has any in 1987. And you think Zimbabwe has it in 1985? That's not possible. They would literally be lucky to maintain what they have. Expansion just isn't possible on any real level.

And you assume that the white population would be all right? And that there would be no refugees? You have a Civil War. Do the math.

The violence against the white population likely would not get so bad, true, but as I said, they were leaving for a reason. And you, for some reason, think that would just go away. Simply put, it won't. And it will get worse, too, in the aftermath of Doomsday - who do you think will be blamed for it, and will get it by extension?

The idea that they have outside contact in 1985 is not possible, at all. And you should know better than that.

Lordganon 23:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll look into AIDS and add something about it.


 * "...horrificially out to lunch." I've got to say that's definitely a new phrase for me. Care to explain what specific problem you have with the current population numbers rather than making blanket opposition statements with no detail that make no sense, even if they are rather humorous?


 * Zimbabwe had native industrial capacities before Doomsday and had become largely self-driven in terms of industrial growth due to the isolation of Rhodesia. While the technology used would not have progress significantly, physical expansion of existing industry is well within the realm of possibility.


 * I never said the White population was "all right." The article states that they remained within the nation and contributed to economic growth. There would be issues, but the White population would have no where to flee to and would be too small to mount any significant military or political resistance. Ultimately, they would acquiese like the remaining OTL White population in Zimbabwe. And just because Westerners caused Doomsday doesn't mean the White Zimbabwean population would face massive retribution for it, especially since Zimbabwe never got nuked.


 * Like you said, the current Mozambique article makes no sense. They lost contact with everyone, even their neighbors, when they weren't even nuked. While I wait for someone to fix the article, I will continue on the reasonable assumption that regional communication would be minimally affected and communication with other unaffected states, like Nigeria and the Gulf States, would be reignitiated shortly after Doomsday. Caeruleus 00:39, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I never once said that Mozambique made no sense. How many times to I have to tell you to actually read things, and to not put words into my mouth? Jeez.

You really do fail to get the point. Contact between South America and the ANZC is barely functional in 1987. Nor is either in contact with the Gulf States at the time. And you're trying to say that this inland nation has contact with all of them, plus the Gulf States and Nigeria, in 1985, through a state fighting a massive Civil War? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? That is not remotely plausible, whatsoever. So long as you say things like that, there is no way this can ever graduate.

You have almost an extra three million people in Zimbabwe than in otl. I've already given ample reason why that makes absolutely no sense, but I'll repeat myself: Racial tensions, Civil War, refugees, no medicine, AIDS. As stated, out to lunch.

Expansion of industry? Not happening. An increase in goods made in the home? Maybe. But Industry? Just not possible. You have no fuel but coal, remember. Or any real natural resources besides a little coal, some diamonds, and some agricultural products.

You have a Civil War, to some extent caused by problems stemming from DD, and you think the white population would be not blamed? And that they wouldn't get attacked, even without any blame? Get real. Both would happen. This is a country where they had only just finished a different Civil War in 1980, against whites. And you're saying that they would be contributing? They can still flee south to the Pretoria area, under the remnants of the SA government, or more likely, die. There is a reason why Mugabe was able to do all of the garbage he did otl. And atl, it is still there.

Lordganon 07:08, September 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * I moved back the date of contact/trade with the wider world. That was somewhat implausible. As for the population, you're still not understanding why it's so high. OTL Zimbabwe has a population 12.5 million plus 3.4 million refugees who aren't counted in the national population figures and largely fled after the economy began to collapse. That makes the total number of Zimbabweans about 15.9 million OTL. You also have the white Zimbabweans population, another 300,000 people, who never left the country. Neither the civil war, racial tensions, or HIV/AIDS would cause, even collectively, substantial declines in the population, which is why the population is what it is. I've accounted for everything and the population of North Zimbabwe will stand at 11.1 million.


 * White Zimbabweans are not going to just stop working or work. If Zimbabwe suffers, they suffer, so of course they're going to contribute. As part of the negiotiations with the former Rhodesian government, the early Mugabe government agreed to actively work to maintain racial stability, for the good of the country. Also, state-sponsored racial discrimination didn't begin until the late 1990s when the economy was already declining and most of the Whites had already left. The post-Doomsday Zimbabwean government would have an economic interest in maintaining racial stability because of the skills the White population possess. Additionally, Mugabe was assasinated in 1991, which weakened ZANU and the strong authority figure who was necessary to lead efforts similar to the OTL land grabs and subsequent rise in racial tensions.


 * As for industry, I've clarified what type of industrial expansion would occur, but some type of expansion is assured. Coal is the only fuel source you need for industry in the country and most of their industry is low-tech or labor-based, which doesn't require any technology that was not natively available. Pre-Doomsday Zimbabwe also had one of the best established industrial infrastructures on the continent, whihc would give them a strong base from which to expand. Keep in mind, the level of technology most of Zimbabwe's industry uses is still at the 1980s-level. The resources to physically build the factories and such would also be available, either natively or from their more stable neighbors. 128.135.100.102 21:03, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, I'm not a bloody idiot. I know about the refugees. You, however, are failing to get the point.

The population is too high. You have a few losses from fighting in a civil war. No refugees from fighting, no AIDS/HIV deaths, no racial tensions, and you're even adding medicines to blunt the impact that would not exist. None of that is possible or reasonable.

The drugs used to deal with that virus were developed in labs, or had the related effects discovered in labs. Largely, these were in nuked areas. At best, that tech will be at about a 1990 level. And, with a global cutoff in contact, its spread outside of Africa has been curtailed, drastically, which when combined with the destruction of cities, where most of those afflicted were, and the likely - rapid, too - fate of anyone surviving the blasts with it in the Northern Hemisphere. Simply put, outside of Africa below the Sahara it's not a major issue.

Those afflicted with it in this area are not going to last even as long as in otl. Deaths are going to be major. And given that the reasons for it spreading in this area in Africa are cultural in nature, there will be just as much problems with changing that as in otl. More hospitals and schools? Maybe a few, but thinking that a large number is possible, or would actually help to the extent you say is just not possible. The number is barely going down otl, with a ton of outside money and aid. Here, that's not happening. And, 1981 recognition of it? Ha.

The SA border guarded? That has no net effect on them leaving, really. They are still going to keep fleeing. And, after the start of the civil war, they are going to flee in droves. They are in a position of wealth. Guess what happens to those people in Civil Wars?

Yeah, Mugabe did say that. And you believe it? He only kept that around for aid. Once that started to slip, so did the policy. Think about it. Note, too I never said state-sponsored.

You also fail to think about a Civil War. Massive fighting, lots of military and civilian dead. But, a ton of refugees too. Those near the front are going to flee. Agricultural production - which goes down overall anyways, lack of fertilizer, etc. - will drop drastically. That is always the case in such a conflict.

Note, I said a little coal. Nor do you at all mention that the industry is virtually the same level as at DD. Expansion past that, not happening. Stability by modern times, somewhat possible.

The majority of this applies to the South as well.

Simply put, you are failing to take into account everything that impacts this area and the people. You have dropped the population by nearly a million, overall. Needs closer to two.

Lordganon 07:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I will take another look at the population figures, but there won't be any major decrease in the population. The deaths from AIDS won't be that major. The issue was largely ignored until the late 1990s, even with the presence of medicine. Up until that point, the lack of drugs would neither hurt nor help the infected. Also, the total number of infected is about the same as OTL. The only difference is that South Zimbabwe has a higher infection rate while North Zimbabwe has a lower one.


 * White Zimbabweans are not going to flee to a collapsing South Africa where Whites are being slaughtered by Blacks and vice versa. The fact that there's a civil war has little to do with the White population. They are a non-factor in the war and the war actually would make their presence even more beneficial due to their technical skills. The racial tension would be an issue, but racial violence would only occur if the government allowed, even if they didn't sponsor it as you said. The government would have a vested interest in maintaining racial harmony, which even existed OTL despite the White flight.


 * Refugees will exist but they will be internally displaced persons (IDL). ZANU supporters in the south will flee north and ZAPU supporters in the north would flee south. The percentage of the population near the border is fairly small, in the few hundreds of thousands. Most of these would simply flee deeper into their respective countries. They wouldn't have any options to flee anywhere else anyway. Botswana is sealed, Mozambique and South Africa were in a state of civil war, and Zambia is too far away. Very few of the refugees would end up leaving the region.


 * Zimbabwe, before Doomsday, was agriculturally self-sufficient, including with regards to fertilizer due to the isolation of Rhodesia. Also, Zimbabwe produces enough coal to meet all its needs plus it has a hydroelectric power plant. Electricity would not be a problem for the country's industry. I will go into more detail about the state of the country's industry though. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Ignored. And with medicine, many died. Here, little to no medicine. Easy math to do. Figures are double, minimum. Same goes for the infected. Without the contraceptive campaigns of otl by aid groups - note, too, that the locals will not do this on their own, culturally - it will be higher than otl.

Collapsing stopping them? Not likely. At all. And, that ignores the Pretoria state. You also failed entirely to understand the point of a civil war. Everyone is fighting, and chaos ensues in any areas with it, especially, and a bit everywhere. They can, and will, be targets. The racial equality stuff was a ploy to get aid. Nothing more. Here, they have no reason to do so except a slight economic reason. And how long will that last? Not long. Especially in a civil war. Seriously, actually look at what happens in those. While the government will likely try to stop them, and denounce them, there will be mobs, etc. Whites will die, and the rest will fear for their lives. They will not sit around. Simple. Many will flee.

Really? You think that will be all that happens, only internal refugees? There is a Civil War. A heck of a lot more will flee elsewhere, being unable to get to the area controlled by their factions and facing death, etc. by staying where they are. Doesn't really matter what the situation elsewhere is, much. The place where they are is bad. No matter what, elsewhere may be better. It's an easy choice, repeated through history. They will leave. Simple. Even the Civil War in Moz~ may be a better situation. Even if not, it beats being killed by your opponents.

Civilian death tolls along fronts are sky-high. But, you never even thought of that.

Isolation? I suggest that you have a better look into that. They were largely isolated. That is one heck of a difference. They were agriculturally self-sufficient, true, but in fertilizer? I doubt it. Everyone can produce some, true enough, but the South African Government was, in fact, still involved with the Rhodesians, and they got supplies from there. You are exaggerating their industry.

That Dam is on the border with Zambia. It may remain operational, true, but not for long. It's called the situation in Zambia, plus parts - or the lack thereof. The coal is in the "south", and the power plant? Not even under construction in 1983. So yeah. One heck of a problem.

As I said, the overall population needs to go down another million. And you need to look at what actually happens in Civil Wars, especially in Africa.

Lordganon 11:07, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I've split up the Zimbabwe article into the two states, North and South Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 15:25, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

An article about the current governor of the Reading provisional gov't. Godfrey Raphael 10:23, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I added some info to Jones. Hope it fits with the TL. Godfrey Raphael 13:33, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Another ex-Ugandan state. Fed (talk) 19:07, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Germany
An article about the region of former Germany. Regentage 20:03, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me, now. Thoughts, guys? Lordganon 08:22, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

St. Lucia
An article about a member state of the East Caribbean Federation. Regentage 20:16, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

This article is an outgrowth of my ongoing work on Delmarva. Although I adopted the article on Norfolk Naval Base, I got to thinking there should a be a larger article looking at what happened to the entire region of Hampton Roads since it included a number of military sites besides the base. I will be updating the article on the base as well as adding to the ongoing work on Delmarva, New Jersey, and other peices. I have not been able to contribute for a while due to personal reasons, however I am trying to find the time to work once again. --Fxgentleman 05:28, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

=CURRENT REVIEWS=

Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the   template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed the proposal template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be mared as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the proposal template will be removed without having to change the article.

Celtic Church
Well, looking at the Vatican stuff, I've noticed some massive issues with this article too. Not a single thing that was taken up on the talk page of the article has been done, nor does it really make much sense overall. Kinda getting the feeling that I should go over all of Mjdoch's articles and have a close look at any of the religion stuff that was written for plausibility, lol. Lordganon 13:58, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

I thought it unusual that the Celtic Church would be the one and only church in Celtic Alliance, but it was Mjdoch's article and figured that Ireland was one place where such things might work out differently post-nuclear war than in most of the Western world. That said, I second your idea of reviewing the religion-related portions of Mjdoch's articles. I'd prefer we stay as close to his ideas as possible, but that does not preclude revisions for plausibility, whether it be on a minor scale or a major scale. BrianD 16:59, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, another project for me to look into, lol. Of course, as little as possible would be changed.

The idea of the Church itself is indeed plausible - it's kinda like the Anglican Church, given what all this says about it. But the idea that the Catholic Church would become part of this thing entirely is a touch ridiculous - some, maybe even many, yes, but not all. And, that is ignoring the extremely valid points that are on its talk page as well.

Lordganon 08:08, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

The biggest concern for me, besides keeping Lahbas's work largely intact, would be to clarify the reason behind the Celtic Church: the government only wanted to deal with one official organization, not hundreds claiming to represent Christianity (especially with the Protestant/Catholic divisions in northern Ireland, and lesser so in Scotland). That actually makes sense to me, as does the government's recognition that not everyone will choose to align themselves with the official state church.

It kind of makes sense to me that initially the various churches might join together, given that the Alliance didn't really know of survivors outside its borders for years. Once it became known that South America had survived largely intact, and that the successor to Rome had established itself in Rio, the issue of Roman Catholicism within the Alliance would have to be raised. Perhaps there is still a Celtic Church today, alongside Roman Catholic parishes, Orthodox churches and however many Protestant churches and denoms would have established themselves in the country.

Since Arstar is caretaker of Celtic Alliance, what does he think about this? BrianD 05:20, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, there really isn't a religion section to the CA article besides a link to this, and it's more of an independent article than anything. To me, that means it's only part-ways under his caretakership. And, on that note, as per his request, I'm watching his articles anyways, so the net result is that it'll just get changed. He's been on once in the last couple months, so I kinda doubt we'll hear from him anyways.

To a certain extent, that's my opinion on the article as well, though I'd make it more so one primary official organization, instead of two. Even with the government behind it, I find it highly doubtful that more tha half the population would go along with this. After re-connecting with the Pope, what you describe is my opinion too.

Lordganon 08:04, May 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Here again I think we're seeing the effects of changing assumptions. When the CA pages were written it was assumed that the people of Ireland had every reason to believe they were the last people on Earth - or close to it. In that context, the merging of the major churches is more understandable. Benkarnell 15:15, June 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * That more or less sums up what I've been working on doing with regards to the article. Will make a touch more sense in many regards like that. Lordganon 18:28, June 10, 2011 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1, Archive 2

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

Communication in the Post Doomsday World
I have a question that has been distressing me for sometime and I would like to put it out to all the major contributing writers, especially the long time writers, including those who just read rather than contribute at this stage. I say this because I would like the perspective on the subject from writers who contributed early on (Mitro, South, Ben, Yank etc.) and shaped this scenario, as well those who have been around for a year (LG, Caerelus, etc.). Because of how important I view this topic, this is why I am placing my question to the group here under fundamental issues versus elsewhere.

For those of us who actually remember 1983 (self included) it was not like our present 2011 in which everyone is connected. As much as we may like to think we were advanced technologically, we were not really in comparison to now. Communication (and I am not referring to mass media like TV) was primarily limited to telephone, radio,  and computer. It had to go through the atmosphere, ground lines, or be bounced off satellites. Satellites were used for a variety of purposes at the time much like now, but primarily for military defense, communications (such as cable TV, which was still in its infancy in many ways), and weather. The only way a USN ship could communicate with the US from say the Indian Ocean, would be to bounce a signal off an orbiting satellite than have it received by a ground station.

On Doomsday, we know the continental US along with chunks of Canada and Mexico got fried with EMPs when the Soviets detonated a nuke in the atmosphere silencing much of, but not all, communications. Thus someone in the MSP would not have a clue what was happening in Vermont, or someone in Delmarva what was occurring in Texas. The same goes for a chunk of the USSR. Now, the question to be asked is what happened elsewhere? We know for a fact a nuke, small or large going off, can still put the whammy on technology close by as well as some distance away. So places like Europe and Asia, primarily China, would see massive disruption, but nothing like the USSR/US unless nukes went off in the atmosphere high enough to cause widespread damage everywhere.

So, where am I going with this? The premise of this scenario has been the world sat around and figuratively sucked its thumb in a dark closet for many years, with A not knowing what B was doing until some brave souls decided to hop in boats and go poking around. I can buy this for some regions of the Earth, like those which got blasted to kingdom come (i.e. continental US). However, this makes zero sense for everyone else. Why? Satellites. We know at the time there had been anti-satellite weapon technology experiments for sometime by the US and USSR. Based on my research, it appears to have been limited in what existed and could actually work as of 1983. Now, it is possible that some satellites could have been taken out. But, there has never been any evidence of this in this scenario. In the Soyuz piece, the cosmonauts saw detonations on Earth, but to my knowledge (unless I missed something here) nothing in the atmosphere. So, in likelihood most satellites were still there to use, as long as you had the equipment.

So places like Australia, Africa, the Middle East, India, Indonesia, and South America to name a few, should have been able to reestablish communications a lot faster and get a very good idea of what was happening. Even places like Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico, should have been able to establish some kind of contact, and I am not talking militarily given many such places were hit. I can not conceivably see why what US ships and submarines which were still around could not have contacted each other in some way unless their tech was fried. These geographical areas I have just discussed should have been able to establish communication within weeks at the latest and coordinate rescue and aid if possible. In addition to this, what about undersea cables? They would have connected many areas and a place like Hawaii (given it had no atmospheric bursts) should have been able to talk with say Australia or Africa with South America. Heck, what about those areas of Maritime Canada which escaped getting fried by EMPs speaking with Iceland, Greenland, and say Scandinavia?

I know there are some writers who will say, Fx "what is written is written and should never, ever under any circumstances be touched, let alone adjusted or tweaked." However, with respect, I have always tried to root my writing in reality, which is what drew me to being a contributor given how that has been a cornerstone of this project most of, but not all of the time. I am not saying rip up the floorboards and tear down the walls, but consider putting in some support beams and laying fiber optic cables as one might do to an old house. I have been kind of quiet on areas which bothered me because they ran counter to what logic, my research, or common sense told me. This subject has been bugging me for some time. As such, this is why I am hoping to hear feedback from all writers, both old and new. Thank you for the time and my apologies for the lengthy verbiage. --Fxgentleman 06:27, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

For starters, the guys in space are only at DD over one area of the globe. They aren't going to see even a majority of the blasts. Nor are upper atmospheric detonations going to look much different, if at all, than the other strikes. And if a satellite gets whacked, in amongst the staring at nukes going off, would they notice? Not likely. And, there's a least two detonations, big ones in the atmosphere, making mass EMP. Who's to say there's not more? To say otherwise, really, is kinda silly, as between missile defenses, technical issues, aiming problems, and other such things, it can and will occur.

Sure, some satellites may get taken out by by weapons, though that's doubtful at best. But you're not thinking it through, either. The EMP detonations over the USSR and USA would fry any satellites over those continents, likely in a larger radius than the area effected on the ground. The other blasts generate more of it, though over smaller areas. Radio waves are going to be disrupted to some degree for years by all of this, combined with the particles thrown into the air. And how on earth can they tell where they are? No one left has any way of doing it that'd be operable for years - and by that point, the sats would be too old to function or have gone down. Plumes from the strikes, too, will damage and/or bring down others, to some extent.

Furthermore, the control centers for these satellites, along with the info of how to get into contact/control with them, were all destroyed. I'm well aware there is a couple left, but besides the ones in Australia, they're not doing anyone anything. And the ones there are very limited.

So, basically, the satellites that remain are almost entirely useless. The few left, and in range of control bases, are only in contact with the Aussies, who have no reasons to believe that, outside of the Southern Hemisphere, anything is left. And contact on some level is restored in that area by 1987, which you've missed entirely in all of this. And that basically includes all of those areas listed but Northern Africa and the Middle East. Even PR, Hawaii, and Alaska are included there - and for the two states, it'd be reasonable to assume destruction too. Overall, these places would end up barely communicating for a number of years - lack of fuel, remember, and barely satellites to use at all. Heck, most satellites need to be adjusted and moved pretty often - and they can't really do that.

US Vessels do not have infinite radio range, and need to use the aforementioned fried/damaged satellites to get very far. Same goes for the rest of the world navies. Most of these US vessels were destroyed in strikes. The survivors of those blasts would suffer immense damage, including fried systems for the most part, as, simply put, no EMP protection is perfect. Some of them - as has long been the case - will receive the special order - heck, most surviving ones would - but they could not communicate back. Most of these will not make it anywhere - fuel, and damage, plainly put. Subs are slightly better off, but not by that much. Other navies are slightly better off, but that brings us to another matter: lack of fuel. Either way, not any net help.

And, I know from past experience that radios, even government ones, can't go between continents on their own on any practical level. So there's no aid there, either.

Cables until the late 1980s underwater were not very reliable, and broke at lot, as they continue to do even today. Today, there's more than 50 breaks in the cables in the Atlantic alone every year, despite burying the cables starting in 1980 or so. Note that the burying, while helping with the breaks, mostly helped deal with faults in the lines developing, causing a change from 3.7 per 1,000 km per year from 1959 to 1979 to 0.44 faults per 1,000 km per year after 1985.

To quote wikipedia about breaks: "Cables can be broken by fishing trawlers, anchors, earthquakes, turbidity currents and even shark bites. Based on surveying breaks in the Atlantic Ocean and the Caribbean Sea, it was found that between 1959 and 1996 less than 9% were due to natural events."

The nukes going off, EMP, debris, waves, and everything else happening, would fry them and break them up. A few may survive, but not for long. I give them a month, at most. And before you say it, EMP and nukes kills the repair ships and their supplies of both fuel, in general things, and cables. Basically, by the time things dissipate enough to talk and it comes onto the agenda, no cables at all. And for the record, there's no real cables between NA and Greenland until much later - ice, y'know? Most cables, too are anchored in major centers, which got clobbered. So, not only are we talking about extensive, and in the long-term fatal (proverbially) cable damage, but the land access points are mostly toast. Even ignoring all that, you're missing, that the cables are useless if there's either no one on the other end, or it's missing entirely.

I think that kills off most, if not all, of your arguments. Past that, what's written is written. Everything is already rooted in reality. Maybe not your version, but that's your issue, not ours. Things may be slightly illogical, but still very plausible. You need to accept that.

Lordganon 08:15, October 9, 2011 (UTC)