Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''


 * I re-did the changes I did to the last map, can you make sure you use this the updated/corrected map as the basis for the next maps you make please? Basically I added Nejd province and adding Crimea & Al-Slaveit/Cossacks to the Caliphate too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:16, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Colonization Order
Tada! Here is a list of nations and the year they can start colonizing away from this main continent. Australia and Oceanic islands are not open to colonies yet.


 * European nations (including Moscovy and Novgorod) can establish colonies in the Americas from the first date, then can start colonizing in the rest of Africa and Asia 30 years later
 * Middle Eastern nations + Ethiopia & India can establish colonies across the rest of Africa and Asia from the first date, then they can start colonizing the Americas 40 years later.
 * Asian nations can colonize the West Coast of America, New Guinea and the East Coast of Africa from their first date, the rest of the world is opened 40 years later.
 * Tribal nations can colonize other continents after naval tech reaches a suitable level.
 * No coastline? Bad luck. DEAL WITH IT!

Europe

 * Austria 1535 (tiny navy, terrible position)
 * Bavaria
 * Brandenburg 1512 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Burgundy 1509 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Cyprus (too small a navy and a bad position to boot)
 * Denmark 1504 (large navy, ok position)
 * England 1502 (large navy, good position)
 * Florence 1510 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Georgia (about to get owned)
 * Granada 1507 (small navy, good position)
 * Milan 1520 (vassal navy, bad position)
 * Moscovy 1560 (recently established tiny coastline)
 * Naples 1508 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Novgorod 1525 (mid navy, terrible position)
 * Ottomans 1550 (mid navy, worst ever possible position ever)
 * Papal States 1525 (small navy, bad position)
 * Poland 1515 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Portugal 1499 (large navy, prime position)
 * Saxony
 * Scotland 1506 (small navy, good position)
 * Switzerland
 * Venice 1503 (large navy, good position)

Middle East

 * Ag Qoyunlu 1522 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Ethiopia 1536 (small navy, good postion)
 * Mamluks 1511 (mid navy, good position)
 * Oman 1515 (mid navy, good position)
 * Vijayanagar 1532 (mid navy, ok position)

Asia

 * China 1527 (mid navy, ok position, retarded naval growth thanks to emperor's land focus)
 * Japan 1502 (large navy, prime position in Asia)
 * Korea 1514 (mid navy, ok postion)
 * Majapahit 1518 (large navy, ok position)
 * Manchuria 1533 (small navy, good position but new nation)
 * Siam 1528 (mid navy, bad position)

Discussion

 * And América? aztec, chiche itza, inca? we have navy too Zetsura (talk) 17:31, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * YTour navies are rowboats, sailboats with very small sail, and rowboats. No colonial power there.[[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * im not sure about aztec and mayas, but the incas have ships, and they go to polynesia, acording the spanish cronist in 1460 aprox, the inca Tupac Yupanqui make a trip with 10,000 man to polynesia, and the Kon tiki voyague make in 1960 (in not sure the year) is an expample the this is totally real.Zetsura (talk) 20:51, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And what about the Zulu?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:56, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria can colonize sooner than the Papal States, despite the fact that the States have been improving military on both sides of the peninsula, have been establishing territories through with the encouragement of the navy, while Austria has a tiny sliver of coastal land and would have to go around an entire peninsula to get to the Americas? Other than that, perhaps we should make a sort of algorithm so we have a bit more reliability, not just mod assumptions. ChrisL123 (talk) 18:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anybody have noticed how all complaints until now have started with the letter A?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria, America, Aragon. XD [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And Aragon? Isn't Aragon in a good position to colonize Africa as well as in an insanely perfect place to colonize America? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aragon would be in a good position, but Portugal is still the best by far. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, but where is Aragon on the list? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be somewhere around 1505 and 1510.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyways, I changed the Papal States and Austrians around, because the Austrian position is worse than the Ottomans really, and the Papal states would have a bietter military. On the subject of having an algorithm, that seems a bit hard to make, one of the major factors is location, and that is hard to create any algorithm for. This is making me think that the position of having the first sailor to arrive in the Americas from Europe should be Portugal. Not only are they currently the ones with the earliest possible date, but Collie has had the Portugese to quite a bit of exploring already, more than many other nations with early dates. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I could try to make an algorithm, with all the key factors needed. Just note that tallying the results would probably be like golf, where a lower score means they get to start earlier. Sounds confusing, but hopefully I'll make it work. Stay tuned! ChrisL123 (talk) 19:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, but then again, most of the time, i'm just repeating here what the Portuguese explorers actually did during this period of time, and when it come to explorers, Colombo presented his exploration project to Portugal twice.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:48, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * well he did but i think you should make that colombus is represented by an rng with all the nations in western europe, the one with the highest score and the best points in the system in here can get being the first in reaching americas, after all i think it should be like in OTL, just a random lucky guy and a random lucky nation like spain Sine dei gloriem (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Few European nations are powerful enough to get Columbus to come to them. Moreso there was nothing lucky or random about it in OTL. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 19:57, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * i say lucky because as far as every european the world was flat and as it seems to happen in otl colombus was rejected a few times, because no one would pay for something they didn't thought possible such as this travel, and he was lucky enough to have convinced the kings of spain of doing it as far as i know Sine dei gloriem (talk) 20:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the first time that Colombo presented his project to Portugal, João II refused it after consulting experts, who told him that the travel distance that Colombo had planned was too low.in the second time, in 1488, he refused because a way to India (arond Africa) had already been discovered.Then, even the Castillian experts also told their monarch, when Colombo presented his proposal there, that the distance planned was too low.However, to keep Colombo from taking his ideas elsewhere, and perhaps to keep their options open, the Catholic Monarchs gave him an annual allowance of 12,000 maravedis and in 1489 furnished him with a letter ordering all cities and towns under their domain to provide him food and lodging at no cost.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:07, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought China had a large navy. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * HAD is the crucial word. Thanks to your emperor's idea that naval exploration is a waste of time after Zheng He's voyage, the Chinese navy has suffered to the point where Japanese pirates could shut down most Chinese shipping.Scandinator (talk) 00:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about the Zulu. We have a coastline and have developed are Navy from the beginning. Enclavehunter (talk) 21:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Developing a navy from scratch=shitty tiny naval with no capacity even after 20 years. Your best chance is to reverse engineer a modern ship. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Muscovy gets a coastline, it can colonize, right? (hint, hint) The Royal Guns (talk) 22:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * look, you wont have to worry about not having colonies as long as the the Commonwealth of Great, Little, and White Russia(Commonwealth/Confederation of All the Russias)[hint-hint invasion of poland]-Lx (leave me a message) 23:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes you can but I would recommend via Poland, You would have to beat and take over all of Poland and Lithuania... Go through the Crimea if you can. (hinthint, nudgenudge) Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well Novgorod has control over most of the baltic via the hanseatic league, and has de-facto control over the Hanseatic Navy, and the navy will be built up continuously as long as there are people that sign up, we will build more ships...although we do need to broker an alliance with Danemark or Sweden to pass through the baltic with warships, but we have no problem passing through the baltic with explorers or traders, all we need to do is install Hanseatic trade posts along the Kattegat strait, and we have de facto free passage, so long as the league has interest, and resources of a new continent are a strong motivator and I believe that the hasea will help a novgorodian expidition leave the baltic.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You and what league? Burgundy has no wish to be in a trade league considering they have the largest port on the Atlantic, Friesland is Burgundian now, Denmark trades through Stockholm, Brandenburg through Venice, Poland through Venice. All you have is Prussia trading through you. Even Scotland and England with their Novgorodian trade posts still send most of their goods to Antwerp. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Stockholm is a member of the Hansa, the hansa has an actual navy that patrols the baltic sea, Burgundy has trade agreements with novgorod and is still part of the league, and In northern germany, it is not venice who holds influence(eh-hem how can you control trade that far away eh?) in northern germany, but the New Hansa controled by Novgorod and the Imperial Trade Guild of the HRE(I think that is what it is called), that was formed because of the apparent demise of the Hansa...an oportunity novgorod took to take control of it. I think it was Lurker that said that it was impossible for venice's influence to reach that far north if novgorod was keeping the league alive, not to mention i spent the last 10 years at least trying to undo the dammage you did aswell as reorgonize the Hansa-Lx (leave me a message) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I now have Manchuria, do we get the "good position" perk? Thanks. Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 12:22, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You didn't take enough of Manchuria to make a difference. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Surely Korea is in a better position than Manchuria, Manchuria has very few warm water ports... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:10, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm planning on eventually crossing the Bering Strait to colonize the sleeper property known as Alaska. I'll just have to expand my territory until I can get to that point. Yank 02:52, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * We Muscovians now have a coastline. Uncross us please. (We have one on the baltic as part of the Poland treaty, and have a treaty with Novgorod allowing us to put our ships through their ports (and vice versa)). The Royal Guns (talk) 20:16, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey I think as Granada I deserve to be on this list. I have a pretty good position and my navy may be F'ing terrible but I'm working on it. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 21:51, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could I also have my navy updated? I've been continually expanding my navy for at least 15 years. Airlinesguy (talk) 09:51, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

Siamese-Malaccan War
can someone do the algorithm

Colonization Order Algorithm (Proposal)
As promised, I have written up an algorithm proposal that lists several key factors needed in order to successfully colonize. While it is mostly for American colonization, I have included some for south Asian nations. The algorithm works by tallying numbers that can be found through common sense, geographical details and player's turns. Unlike most algorithms, I'd assume players would want a lower score, because the algorithm determines the year by tallying up the results and adding 1500 to the total. I have included an example for Portugal and the Papal States.

Location
Add all that apply (e.g., Southern Europe and Central Mediterranean)
 * In Southern Europe (i.e., below the ): -3
 * In Eastern Asia: -2
 * In the western Mediterranean: -1
 * In Northern Europe (i.e., above the ): 0
 * In the center of the Mediterranean: +1
 * In Southern Asia: +2
 * In the eastern Mediterranean: +3
 * In Northern Africa: +4
 * In Western Asia: +5
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Touching the Pacific: *1.5

Travel

 * Traveling to Eastern Africa: +5
 * Traveling across the Indian Ocean: +8
 * Traveling across the Atlantic: +10
 * Traveling across the Pacific: +12
 * Traveling to Southern Africa: +15

Availability
Add all that apply
 * Ships must travel through a straight (e.g Gibraltar, Bosphorus): +5
 * Nations rely on a vassal for navy (e.g. Milan): +6
 * Ships must travel around a peninsula to colonize: +7
 * e.g., Novgorod around Scandinavia, Venice around Italy, Brandenburg around Denmark
 * Amount of coastland:
 * Miniscule coast (e.g. Austria) : +10
 * Little coast (e.g. Poland): +7
 * Nation's border halfly consists of a coast (e.g., Portugal, Papal States): +3
 * Majority coastal (e.g. England): -1

Naval establishment

 * Navy was created __ years ago:
 * 1-10: +40
 * 10-20: +30
 * 20-50: +15
 * 50-100: +5
 * 100-400: -3
 * More than 400 years: -4
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*x), where x is the number of turns of naval expansion
 * New to colonialism: +8
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Vassals/territories: (-0.5(x)), where x represents the number of vassals/territories
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(x)), where x represents the number of islands (on the map?)

Navy size

 * Tiny navy: +15
 * Small navy: +10
 * Medium navy: +5
 * Large navy: -3

Motive
Add all that apply:
 * For exploration: +2
 * Religious reasons: +3
 * For profit: +3
 * For land: +4

Other
Add all that apply
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2
 * In economic ruin: +8
 * Lack of funding due to wars: +5
 * Economically stable: -2

Examples
Note that these examples are for colonizing the Americas, as shown by +10.


 * Portugal: 1500-(3*1.5)+10+3-3+(-0.5*8)-1+(-0.25(9))-3+3-2 = 1496.25 or 1496
 * Aragon: 1498 to 1507
 * England: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.
 * Venice:  1500-3+1+10+5+7+3-3+(-0.5*10)+1+(-0.5*3)-3+3-1-2 = 1511.5 or 1512
 * Papal States: 1500-3+1+10+5+3+(-0.5*10)+(-0.5*3 territories)+1+10+3-1+5 = 1523.5 or 1524
 * Refer to this for a better detailed analysis.

Must say, it works out pretty well. But it's always opened to other factors. ChrisL123 (talk) 00:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
This needs some tweaking, We have Middle Eastern and Asian nations that need their own little algorithm for travel. Those numbers also have to separate for even the Europeans. Suggestion: BTW this is for reaching, NOT establishing colonies, you can establish a colony in an area after 40% of the number for the region in years has passed. e.g. For Europe: 4 years after reaching America, 10 years after crossing the Pacific. Rough numbers still. Scandinator (talk) 01:11, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're right, I never considered the other continents for that. Very nice. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

For Aragon, using this, I get -3.5 plus whatever the motive is, so earliest would be 1499.5 and latest would be 1501.5 for the Americas. Fascinating. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not quite, by my calculations it's 1500-3*1.5+3+10+6 (unless you want to the ships to go through Gibraltar) +3-4+(-0.5*9)+5-1-2 = 1511 for the Americas, plus the motive. Might be confusing, but if we get to accepting the algorithm, I could make a page for each nation for us to know the justification of the numbers. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do touching the Altantic and Pacific have *1.5 modifiers, if the lowest score is the best? Also, the straights and peninsulas should compound. For example, Moldova would have to go through the Bosporous, and through Gibraltar.
 * Also, I should really hope no one would get early than Portugal for Europe, with Norway and Castille's players being pretty much gone (I'm going to actually remove them from the list soon), there really isn't any serious competition. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is what I calculate for Aragon:


 * Location: (-3)+(-1)*1.5 = -4.5
 * Travel: Across the Atlantic: +10
 * Availability: Amount of coastland: +3 (Aragon's entire southern coast is longer in pixels than the border with France and Bearn, but the puny northern coast which borders Navarre (Navarre is NOT a vassal, it is a STATE of the Crown of Aragon, just like Aragon and formerly Naples and the such, which borders the Atlantic.)
 * Naval establishment: -3 (Navy was established in the late 12th Century, although comparable to the current Chichen Itzan navy then.)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*9) = -4.5
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3))= -1 (The islands off the coast.)
 * Navy size: Medium? +5 (Navy was pretty big, conquering half of the Mediterranean coastline countries, but I'll go with 5)
 * Motive: Depends. In most cases it would be 2 or the second three.
 * Other: Economically stable, -2; have a territory in the same continent; +1
 * The "won a war with the navy" one only counts in-game. ChrisL123 (talk)
 * Total: (Motive is 2, Navy size is 5) = 1506 (Motive is 2, Navy size is large) = 1498 (Motive is three, navy size is medium) = 1507 (Motive is 3, Navy size is large) = 1499

So at best, 1498, and at worst, 1507. Not bad. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 03:26, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoops, I did say military expansion, it should say naval expansion. And I counted 9 turns of naval expansion by Aragon, so (-0.5*9). I also fixed your calculations. Not bad indeed. ChrisL123 (talk) 03:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Those *1.5 are multiplying numbers that are negative, so it would increase their value negatively, which would benefit them. (e.g., southern Europe [-3] touching the Atlantic [*1.5] means [-2*1.5] = -4.5) As for Portugal, they should still be the winner. I've done Venice and Aragon, two big players that I could think of, and they're over, though England will still have to be calculated. ChrisL123 (talk) 02:52, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Note that I was referring to Portugal, assuming they don't get devestated by some war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

England would have...

England = 1500 + (0 x 1.5) + 10 - 1 - 4 - (1.5 x 11) - (0.25 x 3) - 3 + 3 - 1 + 2 - 2 =

1500 - 0 + 13 + 17 - 1 - 1 = 1528 I consider this algorithm brilliant, thoguh some things may be should be changed (something to make me reach America first, if possible ^^) in somethings, but I think is fair enough. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I expand my navy almost everyturn, I suppose it would be around 11 to 13 in the last 15 years... I calculate 11.
 * 2) I count Ireland, Man and the Dodecanesian Islands as colonized, that's 3.
 * 3) I expand for profit, to find a way to India.
 * 4) All my wars I have won with the navy, thoguh also every one that I've lost.
 * 5) I consider myself as economically stable.
 * 6) I round 16.5 (1.5 x 11) to 17.
 * 7) I round 0.75 (0.25 x 3) to 1.

You did a few things wrong. I'll show you:
 * In Northern Europe: 0
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Crossing Atlantic: +10
 * Majority coastal: -1
 * Naval origin: -4 (More than 400 years)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*11) = -5.5
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3)) = -0.75
 * Large navy: -3
 * For profit: +3
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2 (I think the English-Scottish incident counts as a loss?)
 * Economically stable: -2

-unsigned post by someone
 * Total: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.

The English-Scottish incident never turned into a full on war. However, I wouldn't know if the English navy should be counted as lasting for more than 400 years, they didn't have a full-on, modern navy until the reign of Henry VIII in OTL. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I think we might want to change the islands colonized thing to specify that it is islands a significant distance away from the mainland, like at least the north-south-length of Italy away, islands just off the coast shouldn't count. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:51, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, If you control an island a few km from your main nation, its not a colony. England for example can only claim that Greek isle. Scandinator (talk) 13:36, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also for the Venetian calculation, Venice is a coastal state, the entire nation is based off an archipelago off the Italian Peninsula. The navy has been around since the 9th century where it was used against Dalmatian pirates. We also have vassals and islands which a located far away from the main section of Venice.. Scandinator (talk) 13:49, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I still don't really see the need for this algorithm, the people who are going to be leading the list either way are going to be the same really. Also, I think that both this algorithm and the other list might be accelerating the process too much, this would have all of Europe colonizing the New World by 1540 or so, when historically only a handful of nations were able to colonize at all. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:55, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. look at Courland.they were pretty much as well-located as Novgorod, and only were able to colonize in the mid 17th century.and this having a large merchant fleet.and they failed eventually.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is if we forced players to wait months and months to expand they would not be happy. Scandinator (talk) 04:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Reworking the Algorithm (primarily for coalitions)
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Saamwiil brought up a really good point about the coalition algorithm currently putting a lot of very small states at an advantage compared to a single large one. Thus, I have come up with a new algorithm idea.

List of leader nations
Good? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:23, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Location: Works the same, (4 for close, 2 for far, etc.) in getting the numbers. Each leader has their own number. All the leader numbers are averaged (then rounded to the nearest whole number)
 * Tactical Advantage: The +5 for larger colonial empire goes to whatever side has the larger combined empire. The +1 for attacker's advantage remains. The +2 for high ground remains for whatever side has more cases of high ground
 * Strength: Remains the same
 * Military Development: Combined military development for each leader nation in the coalition for the past 15 years. 1 year is still +2
 * Expansion: Combined expansion for each leader nation over the last 15 years
 * Motive: Works the same
 * Chance: Works the same, whichever player nation declares war the first.
 * Nation Age: Average of the nation age bonuses rounded to the nearest whole number (so if one side has 2 normal nations (+0) and one old nation, they get 5/3 which is rounded to 2)
 * Population: The digits for the combined population of each side are used. The ratio bonus is the same as well.
 * Participation: Same
 * Recent Wars: Would use my proposal I have for all wars, -1 for each war you send military aid to in the last 15 years, non-compounding, -1 for the first year of a war as the leader, doubling each turn (so a 1 year war as leader gets -1, 2 years gets -2, 3 gets -4, etc.)

Sounds good. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:20, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Awesome!  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 03:29, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

How about we also add an economic development, and an infrastructure development, working the same as military, only 1 year= +1?

Also, about that compounding thing... won't that mean some major problems? A 6 year war would wipe out most nations... which it wouldn't OTL.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:30, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Economic development doesn't benefit the military though. People need to have a choice between building up their military and improving their economy. The problem is that currently we don't have any real in-game incentive for focusing on your economy instead of your military.

As for the compounding you are right, -64 for an 8 year war is bad, perhaps we should just have it be -1 for 1 year, -2 for 2 years, -3 for 3 years, then -3 for each additional year? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:37, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

The compounding thing is more for a modern war. Back in those days, wars were fought by tiny professional armies. This is the reason America and France won their revolutionary wars - more people to zerg rush with! Scandinator (talk) 00:21, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

But having long wars always weakened people. The Byzantines and Sassanids lost to the Muslims because they were fighting for so long. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:08, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

On the same note, wars in the earlier days lasted for decades. Wars in the modern era (the last two centuries) tend to last only a few years, and can be recovered from. Need I remind you about Japan's miraculous recover after WWII? It all depends on how long the war is.There needs to be strict punishments for wars that last over a decade or so.

Yank 02:21, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

True.. but if you're in the middle of a economic breakdown, you can't pay your soldiers, you can't afford to feed them, so you can't field an army. I like your idea with the compounding though.

Infrastructure, there should be one if you are attacked, because it's the single most important factor in getting troops to where they need to be to fight.

The Royal Guns (talk) 23:26, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

But I can't think of any incentive for people to build economy or infrastructure that would be different from military expansion. We need a way to differentiate between the three. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:39, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate
Total: 291
 * Location: 3 (Rumelia +4, West Qoyunlu +3, Anatolia +4, Syria +3, Persia +2, Iraq +3)
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: +86 = Ramazan (L), West Qoyunlu (L), Dulkadir (M), Candar (M), Karaman (M), Circassia (M), Georgia (M), East Qoyunlu (M), Iraq (M), Persia (M), Egypt (M), Syria (L), Pelestine (M), Tunisia (M), Tripolitania (M), Hijaz (M), Yemen (M), Hadramut (M),Oman (M), Shyabah (M), Nejd (M), Trebizond (MV), Rumelia (L) Anatolia (L), Crimea (M), Al-Slaveit (M), Alodia (MV), Granada (S)
 * Military Development: 176(West Qoyunlu +30), (Rumelia +20) (Anatolia +20) (Syria + 16) (East Qoyunlu +30) (Iraq +30) (Persia +30)
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: +3 (taking territory)
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count: 1067
 * UTC Time: 8:45
 * (8*5)(1067)/3.14 = 13592.3567
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * 8 digits in population
 * Larger
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-13 (Crimea -9) (Cossack -2), Gujarat (-2)

Holy Roman Empire
Total: 311 (not confirmed)
 * Location: 4 = (Byzantium 5, Venice 4, Muscovy 3, Cyprus 5, Papal states 4, Naples 4, Savoy 3)
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 125= Byzantium (L), Austria (M), Tyrolia (M), Salzburg (MV), Golden Khanate (MV), Papal States (L), Venice (L), Croatia (MV), Siena (MV), Ferrara (MV), Mantua (MV), Modena-Lucca (MV), Serbia (M), Naples (L), Savoy (L), Bosnia-Montengro (M), Florence (M), Piombino (MV), Milan (M), Genoa (MV), D'Asti (MV), Monferrat (MV), Cyprus (L), Pessaro (MV), Calais (MV), Swiss Confederacy (M), Saxony (M), Anhalt (MV), Baden-Wurttemberg (MV), Bavaria (M), Brandenburg (M), East Pomerania (MV), Burgundy (M), Friesland (MV), Luxembourg (MV), Aragon (L), Navarre (M), Muscovy (L), Novgorod (L), Poland (M), Pskov (MV), Ruthenia (MV), Rostov (MV) Yaroslavl (MV), Ukraine (MV), Ryazan (MV), Lithuania (MV)
 * Military Development: (Venice + 26) + (Cyprus + 26) + (Aragon +22) + (Papal states + 12) + (Musovy + 20) + (Novgorod +20) + (Naples +28) + (Savoy + 24)= 180
 * Expansion:-9
 * Motive:10
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 2903
 * UTC Time: 9:07 9*7 =63
 * 2903/63*3.14 = 144.68
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 8
 * 8 digits in population
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:337 (Portugal: -6), Poland-Lithuania (-6), Prussian war (-4)

Result
Yet to be confirmed.

Discussion
How it is possible having two leaders on a war?And, you forgot your war against Sind, and the Cossacks too.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:52, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

It's coalition warfare. I didn't forget Sind, because none of the the leaders got involved. And I'll add the Cossacks. Sorry 'bout that. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:59, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

If it is coalition, so weren't the leaders supposed to have their own sections?And, i'm sure that some of our states at least helped on the Sind war, though not leading--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:10, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, West Qoyunlu doesn't have vassals... And there's a new coalition algorithm. c.f. LukerLordB's post. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:35, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I was also under the impression each nation in the coalition would have its own section. Plus the Sind war only concerned the Indian provinces who are not involved in this war. There are a couple of middle eastern provinces which are helping in both wars but they were/are only supplying aid to both conflicts.

Also Saam, what happened to invading the Timurids? We can't really have two big wars going on or else they'll take advantage of us! I mean suppose I could use Gujarat and Persia to lead the Timurid war though but what happened to one thing at a time? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:45, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I thought this was a small bit more urgent than the Timurids. They're a gigantic obsticle to Caliphate's trade dominance and have ignored warning implying that they were soon to be at war with us. So, I put this on the table first. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:49, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well the Timurids also hinder trade, but those Byzantines are more of a threat. Suppose I'll wait a few years longer before starting a war against them with Gujarat and (with your permission) Persia. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:54, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I ahve to congradulate the HRE on fielding a strength force of over 100. That's massive. Saamwiil, the Humble 16:21, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

the Caliphate Just attacked Byazntium...the center of orthodoxy(even if russia is seperate, they are still fellow orthodox). Because of this Russia is thinking of helping...although not difinitive yet because the RF is the only european antion with a substantial borrder with the caliphate-Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I am reading the past posts, and i can't find any post related to Rumelia and Anatolia in 1488, 1489, 1486, 1485 and 1482.So, their development should be 20, both.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:45, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Still waiting for the confirmation of other palyers. 1 question: if you can set 3 leaders, can we set 3 defenders? Quiari (talk) 16:48, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

An why +20 on population?, is not supouse to be +10 if you have more population?, is acumulative? Quiari (talk) 16:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

It is 20, if the larger nation has over 10 times the population of the other nation.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:30, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I get this is a flaw in the algorythm, not a problem in the war, but how come Lorraine, Saxony, Switzerland, the Golden Horde, Salzbourg, et cetera for the HRE and Alodia, Hadramwt, Yemen, et cetera for the Caliphate participate? And how come aid from, say, Piombino or Trebizond, has the same amount of strength than aid from Egypt, Persia, Austria or Venice? Fed (talk) 21:24, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

In the HRE algorithm, I'm seeing many of the states are vassals, which is the only way all of them could be controlled without players. If so, then how come all of the nations in the Caliphate part of the algorithm are sending military aid without being vassals and without players? CourageousLife (talk) 21:26, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * ..I don't get where did you get the notion none of our nations have a player, for heaven's sake. And if you read my comment, you would've notice my complain also goes for the Caliphate. Fed (talk) 21:34, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am aware that you have three players. I had also read your previous comment and knew that you made statements about the HRE and the Caliphate. I was just under the impression that many more of the states were vassalized since an earlier conversation about all of the posts by members of the Caliphate. CourageousLife (talk) 21:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

This is true, for example: i can form a state in Naples, i will fragment all my kingdom in 50 small states, with no vassals, in this form i can sent 100 points in help?, but this is force the rules?... the caliphate have no vasal, all are equal they say... but.... Quiari (talk) 21:35, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

...You guys don't seem to get this: First of all, we have less provinces than you do, so I don't know what are you complaining with "... the caliphate have no vassal, all are equal they say...", and second, my complain also went for the Caliphate''. Fed (talk) 21:41, October 17, 2012 (UTC)''

Before a flame war happens. The Caliphate is structured in a similar matter, as far as I can see they are not really doing anything that bad. As Fed stated they do have less provinces than us. He also explained his confusion about the Caliphate. After last time, their is no further need to beat the dead horse as the expression goes.Andr3w777 (talk) 21:46, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

What nations in the Caliphate are main nations, and who are their vassals? CourageousLife (talk) 21:55, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Again, there are no vassals in the Caliphate. Fed (talk) 22:21, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Then how is the Caliphate controling so many countries when it only has three players? CourageousLife (talk) 23:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

They are not nations they are provinces. Players control provinces of the Caliphate. The Caliphate is the actual nation but we control each province of it. We treat the provinces as if they were nations, same thing which is done with the HRE, except we are more centralized. Seriously just read the Caliphate page or past game posts, its all there. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:13, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also while I'm here, are all of the HRE nations helping actual player nations? You guys have a lot of NPCs and I'm not entirely sure on all of the names of them so could this be checked?

Also are we sure that it is plausible for all those nations to contribute to the war effort? Some are quite small and/or far away. Remember we need to be strict with this as the algorithm is flawed as the algorithm gives the same amount of points for nations sending military aid even if the power of the aid differs e.g. Georgia sends 10,000 troops but Yemen sends 2,000 will still give the same amount of points even though Georgia is sending 5 times the amount of troops. So we need to compensate for this or else the results will be biased and flawed. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:33, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agreed, this is really flawed. For example, if the algorythm is translated into a 1700s Map Game, Courland and Poland will only have a point of aid in difference despite the huge differences. The algorythm is horribly flawed. Fed (talk) 23:54, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I highly doubt that these nations spread over three continents would suddenly decide to be happy and join into one nation... over even a supernatural/dynastic union. The Caliphate is pretty implausible to me, as I see it. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:35, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because continents, and not religion, language and culture, are the only things that matter nowadays, right, Pita? Plus it's not like Holland+Taiwan+Madagascar, it's a contiguous nation. Fed (talk) 23:54, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You do realize that Ottoman culture is radically different from Tunisian culture, and Oman's culture is also radically different from Palestinian culture? This would be something like Korea and China suddenly deciding to join because they have similar language, philosophy, and religion. Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:10, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well I don't think its plausible for Korea to colonize Taiwan and the Philippines in the 1400s either, especially seeing they have all that new land they just got from Manchuria. Regardless, those comments aren't helpful here Pita, put them somewhere else. This algorithm discussion thread is clogged up enough as it is. Try to keep things related to the war/algorithm itself rather than things said by the way.

Anyway I've done a quick look through the HRE nations and I'm a bit ignorant on a few nations on there, could someone inform me about these nations (I'd check myself now but going out soon, so apologies): Basically if its on this short list, its because I'm not sure about the player of the nation (i.e. NPC colour on map) or if it even exists. Apologises for my ignorance on this matter, but after the stuff against the Caliphate, fair is fair right? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)23:59, October 17, 2012 (UTC) VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 23:59, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Golden Khanate (Who controls & where is it?)
 * Bosnia-Montengro (I know both Bosnia & Montenegro exist, but I see no single nation called Bosnia-Montengro. Also who controls this country too?)
 * Palatinate (Which player controls this nation? It is an NPC on current map)
 * Provence (Which player controls this nation? It is an NPC on current map)
 * Pessaro (Where is this on the map & who controls it?)
 * Lorraine (Which player controls this nation? It is an NPC on current map)
 * Thuringia (Which player controls this nation? It is a civil disarray NPC on current map)
 * Wurttemburg ((Which player controls this nation? Where is it on the map too? I notice Baden & Wurttemburg are now one nation, which I assume is Baden-Wurttemberg, so where is the other wurttemburg nation?)

Some of them, Pessaro is an Italian military base-city state, Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 00:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but the ones I wasn't sure existed where the Golden Khanate, Bosnia-Montengro (I can see both Bosnia & Montenegro, but I didn't know they were a single nation, let alone player controlled ones), Pessaro, etc. I've added my problems with each of the nations onto the list to the list as well now to make things easier. Sorry for my earlier vagueness & stuff. I appreciate your help though :) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:34, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

There is no other nation. I merged the vassal states of Baden and Wurttemberg into one a good while ago. Also Thuringia is a vassal of Bavaria Proper.I think the Khanate is owned by Austria and Bosnia-Montengro by Venice or Naples? Sorry I got confused after trying to incorporate the Nassau/Ansbach/whatever it was called into Bavaria. Andr3w777 (talk) 00:39, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Pesaro! Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 01:01, October 18, 2012 (UTC)





For the Caliphate:

Military Development: +70 (West Qoyunlu +30), (Rumelia +20) (Anatolia +20)

That, my friends, is what we in the derogatory speech business call total bullcrap. That MD is only for the leader if I am not mistaken, meaning a 30, not a 70. Also meaning that the HRE wins. LOL XD ' FAIL. '

Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 01:41, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Lol FAIL? You seem tp be very well versed in derogatory talk. However, if you were as versed in wikia rules, you'd get that offensive behaviour is punished. Don't ever say something of the sort again. Fed (talk) 14:50, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well if you'd dug a little harder, you'd see that I didn't even coin that portmanteau. You can thank Pita for it. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 00:09, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations, you have achieved the record for most nations giving military aid on an algorithm ever.

Also, what is an R&A warning? The only way you can use the defending territory motive is if you are the defender, which the caliphate is not. So currently I am trying to find a way that you are helping out a religious or ethnic minority in Byzantium. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:35, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to point out the Imperial Government of the HRE has been centralizing with little objection over the last decade or so. While it does not put them under solid control of a player, the closest it could be seen as is something like Venice's "Diplomatic Union." Since they are not player nations, I don't think that it is right to add them to the algorithim yet.

The Golden Khantate is the former Austrian Territory near the Crimea.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:41, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

i think that the Caliphate have no real reason to use defensive, because the war against the otts were before their union in the caliphate, so there would be no offensive from our side, and with our win from the Empire and christianism what do we gain, exactly? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 03:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

3,666 + 1 + 75 + 70 + 0 + 5 + 5 + 0 + 34 + 10 - 3 - 2 = 198,66600 Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 04:04, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

why is everyone so biased against the Caliphate?? First its anti-Caliphate mod events, then ant-Caliphate mod events about loyal states revolting, then this?? This is an overly biased agaisnt the Caliphate, and the HRE has had no noticable penalties whatsoever, and those provinces are tiny as heck in he HRE, they shouldnt gain so many points, one of the Caliphates provinces has the population and territory of a third of the HRE, yet the HRE gains points act like the HRE has a bigger provinces and central government, which is implausable as the HRE states were agaisnt cenrtalization completley OTL. Stop being biased, do it RIGHT! (DeanSims: Talk) 11:29, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

No offense, but WE DID do it right. Each nation up there is controlled by a player in some manner. We have been around longer, we have a central government becuase, unlike OTL, we actually worked for it. Since majority of the HRE's members are indeed controlled by players, that means that they CAN join and support a centralised authority(which they obviously did). As for the mod events and stuff. Do not dare presume they are siding with us. We have had nations breaking away, civil wars, inter nation squabbles and revolt and discontent. It is only fair that the Caliphate (which is MUCH younger) get the same. Stop whining please. I may not agree with everything. But I do belive the algorithm is more or less right(minus the loopholes). Once again I ask you not to take anything offensivly. I understand how much you all have worked. But SO DID WE!!! You act like we sat there and did nothing. Read the(arguably) longest Constitution on the wiki. Read our organisational structure and how each nation contributes before making sweeping generalisations(to Saami, yes I know I did that before. I was ill informed and stand corrected. Sorry)Andr3w777 (talk) 11:55, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that the HRE has 40+ players, and yes, you have gotten mod events, but it's only when you're implausible while every time we blink a heretical, ahistorical and implausible branch of Islam appears and we lose a province. Fed (talk) 14:50, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Russia has declared a FULL war on the Caliphate, we are not a part of the HRE, and thus this would be a coalition war. Which I have mde. Though, I do agree that the HRE is a bit overmuch, you guys so don't have that many nations. You'd be more like 170 ish. Fortunately, Russia is here... The Royal Guns (talk) 19:13, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Okay then Andr3w if you have joined Baden and Wurttemburg got merged into the vassal state of Baden-Wurttemburg then why is there another vassal state called Wurttemburg as well?

Next, if the Golden horde is that Austrian/Venetian colony in Crimea, then why is a colony contributing to the war algorithm? If not a colony then what is it? Pretty simple/wrong name for Austria to call one of their colonies too.

Thirdly, there is no state called Bosnia-Montenegro but there are two states though, one called Bosnia and the other Montenegro. But they are not a unified state so B-M doesn't exist.

Fourthly, Pesaro is still not be found, where it is circled on the map posted by Bauglir Zero there is no Pesaro nation, just the Papal states. So I'm thinking this is a made up nation as it still isn't accounted for.

And finally, I still don't know who is controlling the nations of Palatinate, Provence and Lorraine. They all seem to be NPCs to me.

Apologises I didn't know Thuringia was a vassal of Bavaria, please update the nation list and the map to show this to avoid future confusion.

Anyway as it stands the HRE has broken the rules seven times as it stands in this algorithm, 3 counts of using NPC nations in a war to boost algorithm scores (Palatinate, Provence and Lorraine), 3 counts of making up a nation to use in a war (Pesaro, Wurttemburg & Bosnia-Montenegro), and one count of using a colony in the war algorithm (Golden Khanate). If you guys can't prove your innocence with these matters then I will be forced to punish the HRE severely for breaking so many rules. It is a joke that you guys complain about the Caliphate breaking rules, use abusive language then you go and break the rules in 7 different places in one algorithm. You guys have some time to prove your innocence but if you can't, then prepare to be punished.

Also Russia doesn't have a large population than the Caliphate, you forget that we have half of India, all the middle east and a large part of north Africa. Not to mention large parts of Europe too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:34, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * ya...the RF has 10-20 million people only. its not near 100 million.


 * But would that be fair if you punished them, since you're on the opposing side? I mean, if you have to punish them, at least let someone else do it so we don't get into a fight about whether it's fair or not. CourageousLife (talk) 20:09, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * So. A: Palatinate is a Neapolitan or Savoyan vassal, if I'm not mistaken. Provence: Milanese. Lorraine: English. B: Pesaro: It was actually created out of conquered lands. (If I am not mistaken, again.) Wurttemburg does not exist; ergo, I have removed it. Bosnia-M is just Venetian magical lands. C: Golden Khanate is an Austrian vassal. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 00:09, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I did update both the territories page and added a map. I was plain. I mentioned before that Wurttemberg shoudn't be up there seperate and thought someone would fix this. I have been explicit. Bavaria has done no wrong here. Also I think Austria clarified the whole Golden Khanate thing. I guessed. Don't take my word for it. And before you go all gung ho on the HRE i believe Savoy controls the Palatinate and Provence. and Passaro I think is a milanese holding. And Bosnia Montengro was created several years ago in game by Venice i beleive. Nobody has updated everything yet. I may only be speaking for myself when I say that I have no knoweldge of us tweaking the algorithm. I have been gone several days, been to the hospital. The last thing I need is you threatening to punish me. Andr3w777 (talk) 19:42, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

The map was not updated a long time, if you see the page of maps you will see the reclamations, and also, I THINK THE MAP UNDER THIS CONVERSATION, (was made by tipatai) is showing in some way the actual map, sure that need sonme change, but is ok. Finally, who is winning??? and when is over the war??? Quiari (talk) 20:09, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Golnden horde is controled by astria
 * 2) Bosnia-Montengro was created few years ago, after the repartition of that territory betwen Venece and Naples. Naples is in control.
 * 3) Pessaro belong to england, but is not show on the map, i dont know why.
 * 4) Lorraine is vasal of england. Palatinate and Provence are vasals of Savoy.
 * 5) IS A LOT OF NATION IN THE LIST THAT NOT SHOW TO WHO BELONG, PLEASE UPDATED. AND ALSO THE CALIPHATE, MUST SAY WHO IS IN CONTROL OF HIS PROVINCES, OVER ARABIA OR NEAR EAST.

The war won't be over until the issues about these rule breaking are sorted as they will affect the outcome of the war. Also the information about the Caliphate and its provinces is funnily enough on its nation page. Here is the province list. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:46, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Why is Russia even in the algorithm as a leader. We've agreed that their control of the coast is minor, and wouldn't play a large role. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:37, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter- we have a BORDER WITH YOU.

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:43, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

well i see a few reasonsfor the break aways from the caliphate, due to the differences between the shiites, the sunnites and jariyists, something similar would happen to the Byzantines if they haven't been trying to retie with romans pope, and the almost complete extermination of the catholic orthodox, while this has been never been done with the Caliphate, also i once read, somewhere that there would be no vassals in the caliphate, and i found that many nations in there have no player, and have become in the war greater participants, and aided, so If the Caliphate can use all their provinces why cant the HRE use there Duchies and Counties in the same way, when infact the entire empire has certan vassalization upon the emperor thus forced in the war, well thats what i think 186.144.118.166 01:49, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * "Differences between shiites, sunni and jariyists"; yes, diferences between 95% and 5% of the population. "Almost no nations have player", all the nations have a player, for God's sake. And "why can't the HRE use their Duchies and Counties in the same way" because not all of the HRE is player-controlled, not all of the NPCs singed the unified treaty and you have far more vassals and NPCs than us. Please try to check around both side's arguments before commenting, alright?Fed (talk) 03:06, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bedouin Nomads --
 * Oman (Caliphate) -- VonGlusenburg
 * Yemen (Caliphate --
 * Hejaz (Caliphate) --
 * Hadramaut (Caliphate) --
 * Shaybah (Caliphate) --
 * Palestine (Caliphate) --
 * Ak Qoyunlu --
 * Alaiye (Caliphate) -- DeanSims
 * Georgia (Caliphate) --
 * Ag Qoyunlu (Caliphate) -- Saamwiil (talk)
 * Ottoman Empire (Caliphate) -- DeanSims
 * Karamanids (Caliphate) --
 * Candaroglu (Caliphate) --
 * Dulkadir (Caliphate) --
 * Ramadanids (Caliphate) --
 * Trebizond (Caliphate) --
 * the rest that are being used in game are used by one of you i think saamwiil, but as they aren't vassals, and in your Caliphate, there aren't supposed to be vassals i think some should be erased from the algorythm then, for the same reasons the ones of the HRE are being rejected, so the only ones in the war would be the ones with players otherway would be a failure if the caliphate can use non-vassal NPC and the HRE can't Sine dei gloriem (talk) 15:43, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * The nation list hadn't been updated, I have now updated it. If you had bothered to look in this discussion thread, you would of found us answering this question several times. So as I told Quiari just a bit above this post, (seriously scroll up once or twice & its there) the information about the Caliphate and its provinces are on its nation page. Here is the province list. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:27, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Because not every NPC signed the treaty would be the foremost reason I can think of. I won't try explaining the Caliphate again. For that just look at the explanations we've been giving. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:35, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

well yeah,but this would not just be a war from the empire, if not from a religious perspective so i think they would join, but ok i think someone should either redo the algorythm that its not involved inthe conflict, and or put the arguments of the errors of it depending on from these ones who gets advantage the HRE resalted and the Caliphate in Cursive Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:53, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

firstly, the Caliphate does not have 10x the population of the coalition. to have 10x russia's population alone, by my estimates, the caliphate would have to have 100-150 million people. Add the HRE it would have to have at least 215 million population to have the +20. at most I give the Caliphate 2x or maybe 3x the population of the coalition(being verry generous, and thats only because of the Mughal empire's 50 million population in 1600).-Lx (leave me a message) 14:22, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Each of the Qoyunlus have a population of around 10,000,000, and that's an understatement. A lot of them are children, but that's the population. And so is Circassia, due to all the incoming tribes some years ago. The same with Georgia.

India 50,000,000, 4 Qoyunlus 50,000,000, Circassia 10,000,000, Georgia 10,000,000 so that 120M just counting those states. We still have the rest of the Caliphate to go to. Saamwiil, the Humble 14:50, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Uhmm, no. India must have the most population, arround 150,000,000 in all the sub contient by year 1500. And also regios so smallers like Circassia and Georgia no way they have so many population, muts be arround 8 millions between the 2. Qoyunlus must have in 1500 arround 30 millions, just like all Egipt... In all Russia must be like 12 millions, in alllllllll... and all europe must be like 80 millions at most by year 1500. Also im not part of any side Tipakay (talk) 14:59, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

In OTL, Circassi was flooded with immigrants. For many years, the government had almost no control because of them. And the Qoyunlus have had massive population increase, most of which are children, since every human is a child when they are young. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Okay the Caliphate is declaring full war on Cyprus and the Papal states as well now. That means Cyprus and the Papal states join the HRE algorithm score as coaltion leaders (as in their military development contribute to score), and the Caliphate provinces of Karaman, Ramazan and Syria are leading the invasion of Cyprus and Tunisia is attacking the papal states. This is happening because only nation leaders can loose territory hence we're bring Cyprus and the papal states fully into the war because otherwise we couldn't take their territory, which is something we want to do.

Furthermore since Russia has now joined the war, the provinces of Crimea, Al-slaviet, Candar and Circassia also join the war as algorithm leaders since they are fighting the Russians.

I'm updating the algorithm now, also going to give those rule breaks a thorough check through after. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:05, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I don't see how Novogrod is in the war as a coalition leader. They don't border the Caliphate, or have a coast. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:18, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

If the Caliphate can have 11 leaders, then why can't the HRE and Russia have that many? If you are attacking a province, such as Cyprus, you have one leader. Not Karaman and Ramazan and Syria. And, if you can have more than one leader, then shouldn't the other side be allowed to make more leaders? CourageousLife (talk) 18:11, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * You can have more than one leader, that is already the case in this war already as it is a coalition war. Leaders are the only state which can gain or loose territory in a war so he added Cyprus because we want to take Cypriot territory and we had a coalition of provinces leading the attack against Cyprus. This is perfectly allowed, two + nations can attack another one. No one has said the HRE can't add more leaders, they can assuming the new leader nations are close enough. Please read the rules and read properly what has been said in the discussion before commenting in the future as you are clogging up the discussion with your irrelevant, ignorant nonsense. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:36, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

As for the rule breaks, the Golden khanate/horde state was made a state of the HRE in 1483, however no one posts as this nation so it seems to not be a real nation rather a colony of Austria. Colonies do not contribute aid to the war effort. This still seems like a rule break to me.

Secondly according to you guys, "Bosnia-M is just Venetian magical lands which were created few years ago, after the repartition of that territory betwen Venece and Naples. Naples is in control." This didn't help my situation so I decided to look through old posts only to find that of the old Bosnian state which is shown on the map because it hasn't been updated, that the northern 25% of Bosnia joined Croatia and the rest joined with Montenegro to form Bosnia-Montenegro. So only Bosnia-Montenegro exits really with the nation controlled by the house of Naples/Savoy. Therefore it okay that Bosnia-Montenegro is in the algorithm as it is an actual country controlled by Naples/Savoy. Apologies this was not a rule break, just bad communication between players allowing multiple conflicting stories to exist. To solve his problem once & for all, I request the map be updated to show this. Also who controls it? Savoy's or Naple's player?

Thirdly, Palatinate is a vassal of Savoy after a dynastic union with Naples according to past posts. Erm, how does that work out? I'm still confused with this one.

Fourthly, Provence after controversially forced into the HRE was vassalized by Savoy. While this confirms that Provence is part of the HRE, it does bring up the question of the rules being broken as the HRE-Savoy force Provence to join the HRE. As you HRE guys keep saying, I thought you weren't allowed to force NPC nations to join your multi-national organisation. No you are not. So why has the Savoy forced NPC Provence to join the HRE then without an algorithm or anything? This seems to be a violation of the rules which was missed by the mods earlier. Punishment will soon be brought upon you for this.

Fifthly, Pessaro is meant to be an Itailian military base city controlled by England but it isn't on the map. I googled it and it should be in the northern part of the Papal states. The map needs to be updated to show Pessaro, otherwise no rule violation. However I am still not entirely sure how Pessaro came to be a nation still. Could someone explain with references to in-game posts please?

Sixthly, Lorraine is a vassal of England, but again I am suspious of how it came into being and if it should have been allowed to happen. Can I have some in-deepth analysis on this matter please?

Finally, the Thuringia issue I applogize for again. Please update the map to show Thuringia as a vassal of Bavaria. However I will say that vassalizing a nation should take longer than a year, so don't do that again Bavaria or else. Also Wurttemburg was shown to be put into the algorithm even though it didn't exist however you have come clean and removed it, I'll take it adding Wurttemburg was an accident but I express displeasure that I had to clean up this mess for you as I doubt you'd have removed Wurttemburg from the algorithm yourself without me calling you out on it. Anyway lets solve these last 6 issues, I think us mods missed a few things with some of these vasalization efforts, and I think justice needs to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:23, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Naples and Savoy are ruled now bye the same king, Pedro III, but first Pedro III was only king of Savoy and in this time is when the Palatinate become a vasal of Savoy: Tancred II father of Pedro gives this duchy to empower the new kingdom of his son. Montengro was a province of Naples, an later is formed a new kingdom with Bosnia under the crown of Felipe, brother of Pedro. Provence take time to be vasalized by Savoy, and in the last years the HRE make a pression to be a part of him. The 3 kingdom are part of the same royal house, byt with independent goberment, and Savoy has ony 2 vassals by now. Quiari (talk) 20:07, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

1.Thuringia actually took several (3 0r 4)turns not one. It was something that happened when I was expanding Bavaria's influence.

2.I never put Wurttemberg up there. I wasn't even on. I discovered it being up there after you made the comment and then removed it. I gave the Emperor permission to put my nations up while I am unavailable, so there was probaly confusion. I wasn't available for a day because I was out of town.

3.Thank you for looking over these things in an unbiased way.(no sarcasm I'm serious) There has been an aweful lot of confusion recently.Andr3w777 (talk) 18:39, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your support, however what you said about Thuringia seems to be a lie. I've just done a CTRL-F search for Thuringia on the game page, the first mention was in the nation list, then the 2nd mention was in 1484 as part of a post by Bavaria it said: "Thuringia is still being vassalized." Then in 1485 in Bavaria's post it said:"Thuringia becomes a vassal of Bavaria". This was vassalization in a year and it wasn't from a war algorithm either. Hence I suspect you've broke the rules. But I notice you say in 1487 that "Thuringia is officially recognized as a vassal to Bavaria." and 1487 is the first turn that you post as Thuringia. What do you have to say about this then? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:59, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * '87 was the correct date. I had intially intended it to be earlier, but I thought it too implausable. I thought I had removed the previous post. I assure you this oversight will not happen again. I am trying to build a respectable nation. I did not know the name of the region at first which is why that post alludes to"still beign vassalized. Scand sent me a list of the nearby nations after I had already began, hence the name appearing later. That was ignorance on my part.Andr3w777 (talk) 19:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also do a ctrl f and type Thuringen(that is the modern name for Thuringia) What will pop us should a post made in '82 or '83 talking about attempts to vasslise.Andr3w777 (talk) 19:09, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I thought that was the case, seeing you didn't post as Thuringia until '87. Well just go change your post in '85 then to say your still vassalizing Thuringia and this issue will have been solved. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:12, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ya...Novgorod is a leader too...since the mechanics of the Russian Federation allow for free transport of Local Druzhinas as armies throughout the Federation(well, its technicaly de jure one army...but controlled by the different states and other states dont have to do the same as the other ones stwitch makes them de facto seperate and controled by the three players therefore liable for seperate leadership)...and isnt there a basic convention and rule that prohibits esential vassals of others to become leaders? like chrimea and the Cossacks?-Lx (leave me a message) 18:35, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Novogorod is too far away to send troops via sea as you have only had a navy for a few years and it is a long journey by sea too. Novogorod is simply supporting the Musocovy army, if you say Novogorod is a leader then I guess every other Caliphate province in the middle east is as well as we too have a good infrastructure to allow other province's troops to go through the Caliphate to support the other provincial armies. Therefore that is why Novogorod is not a leader, the war zone is too far away to wage war in using 15th century technology/communications. Also there is no rule against vassals being leaders in wars, heavens knows where you got that idea from. Of course vassals can start and lead wars. Plus Crimea and Al-Slaveit are not vassals, they are full pledged provinces of the Caliphate. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:45, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, sure, that's cool. Let's go that way: every single player controlled province can be a leader. That'll be fun.

In any case, Novgorod is a lot closer than many of your middle eastern provinces. Since technically it's a single army, all this is is mobilization.

But, you know what, I'm fine. When does the Caliphate expire (Oh, and muscovy has in the 7s-8s... OTL it was in the 7 digits by now (not counting the territory of Novgorod).

Still, I do believe the above algorithm is biased, we need a mod who is completely unbiased to do this.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:10, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

And the Caliphate is gonna put more leaders or this is it?... what is the final score??? Quiari (talk) 20:07, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Time out--I used to know some nice people: namely Fed and Von, and Courageous, who are now going all nasty on the other side, moreso Von than the others. Don't get offended too much, Von.


 * What?? I am so so sorry if I came off that way! I didn't mean it like that! I wasn't getting nasty at anyone, and I'm definately not trying to pick a fight. I apologize profusely if I offended anybody, and I hope that no one thinks any less of me for joining the conversation! Really really sorry!!! CourageousLife (talk) 02:48, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm super mega offended now, I thought I was holding a lot back of my rage, hence now I wonder if my super mega offended-ness too much? Fufufufufufu~
 * But Courageous (and everyone else for that matter), if you take the time to read through past posts & try to answer your questions yourself, then this discussion & the war will proceed much quicker as then we don't have to keep going back to (re)answer questions. That is why I am getting irritated, because this discussion keeps going around in circles. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:54, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I have questions and comments. Naples and Savoy enter in full war... You should've read the discussion before, since a bunch of answers are there. Once again, you really should've read what was in the previous discussion and in the game. Also, sign your posts. Fed (talk) 23:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) If a jillion Caliphate provinces can all be leader, all the main player HRE states might as well be leaders too.
 * 2) Now is not the time to question if vassals or province states or new states or puppet states should have been created not; they were created so long ago, removing their existence would change everything since then.
 * 3) I suggest that we let Lurk do the algorithm, as I know that he plays for neither megastate and is not in the war at all.
 * 4) How on earth did the Caliphate come to control parts of India?
 * 5) How did the Caliphate force the Ottomans and Mamluks into a single nation?
 * 6) How is the Caliphate powerful other than having lots of people and land? The HRE has that too.
 * 7) As for Provence-Savoy and the such, Provence was first vassalized by Savoy, then Savoy decided to bring all of its lands into the HRE.
 * 1) A few provinces can be leader because they are those attacking, while only Cyprus and Byzantium are directly in the war right now. That's pretty much common sense.
 * 2) Agreed, I guess?
 * 3) Agreed
 * 4) The Caliphate come to control parts of India because there are Muslims in India. That's very straightforward. If you mean out of character, then it's because the player of the Muslim Bahmani Sultanate gave up but agreed to join his nation into the Caliphate beforehand.
 * 5) What? Okay, so there's a lot wrong between this, like 1) The wars between Ottomans and Mamluks were just for land, and hate didn't run between the two very deeply, and 2) the Mamluk State was abolished.
 * 6) Well, it has far more people and land than the HRE, so thusly more manpower, and more riches since it controls both the Silk Route and the western part of the Indian Ocean Trade Route. Furthermore, the Caliphate is a very centralised state for its age leading to more control and has a reason by which everybody flocks and allies with the Caliph.
 * 7) Alright.

I thought you couldn't have multiple leaders in an algorithm without making it a coalition algorithm. 77topaz (talk) 01:09, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

That algorithm was revised earlier. This IS a coalition algorithm.

I agree with the current total (yay for bias).

The Royal Guns (talk) 01:23, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that the four states that completly follow the Imperial government, Austria, Tyrolia, Salzburg, and the Golden Khanate, have all been building up their military for some time now.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:30, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Are you finished with this? the Caliphate controversy and this war already took up almost half of the talk page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:36, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

That's not how the population part of the new coalition algorithm worked, it was the number of digits of the total population of all of the states. So if all the Caliphate had 100 million people (which I imagine it would have less) it would get 9.

Also, I think I should have made this clear, you can't build up vassals militaries then have them join you. Vassals can only contribute military aid. Also, both sides had ridiculously large numbers of leaders in the coalition. Only the player nations of the DME are going to have their military aid counted, as only the actual Player nations should be leaders I'm counting nations broken away from player nations (like both Qoyonlus, Syria, Egypt, etc.) for this.

I am not done yet, I am still looking over the HRE states. However, let me say that the HRE's amount of vassalization has been nothing short of ridiculous in frequency and amounts. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:45, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Currently, I am suspicious of the +30s for military buildup for many of the HRE leaders. You can't be building up your military and be the leader in the war at the same time. Since it is incredibly tedious for me to go through and count up all of the valid years, I would like the players of those nations to go and subtract from their military buildup any year in whihc they fought in a war, expanded into unclaimed territory, or vassalized a nation (counts as expansion) because you can't build up your military and do those things in the same year. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:58, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Also, any years Cyprus built their military up before they had a player don't count, if any of their years are those. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:01, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove any years in which the nations were at war with someone, as those can't count.

Also, I could not find any instance of the Sibir Khanate being vassalized. They are too big for Russia to vassalize without a war in any case. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:11, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

There are 4 Qoyunlus. The rulers of which are all brothers. They're uncle is the ruler of Circassia. Saamwiil, the Humble 14:37, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll accept Iraq and Persia, but Circassia was only ever a vassal. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:18, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

The war against Sind was lead by Gujarat, Gujarat and the other Indian provinces are not involved in this war because they are too far away. So this recent war would not affect this algorithm since that war had none of the leader nations contributing to it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:09, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Persia, Iraq, and East Qoyunlu all are listed in that algorithm as giving military aid, and all of them are listed as being leaders here. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:18, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well they shouldn't be leaders! After looking threw the page history, I found that Saam has also taken off a few other nations from the list who are leading the war, not sure why he has done that. The leaders are ones closest to the war zone. The leaders should be Rumelia, West Qoyunlu, Anatolia, Ramazan, Tunisia, Candar, Circassia, Al-Slaveit, Crimea, Karaman and Syria. Persia, Iraq & East Qoyunlu are all too far away to lead the war, the provinces closer by should be the leaders. Why you done that Saam? Score boosting using Iraq, Persia and East Qoyunlu's higher military development scores? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:47, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Also you need to put bizantium like a leader, and Naples has develop his army more tahn 15 years, we must have 30 points there. Quiari (talk) 15:58, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Naming the New World
In my opinion I believe the honour of naming the new world should go to a HRE state (Bavaria, Florence, Naples or Venice) as although the Portugese were expert seafarers and navigators the name America originated from a mistake in a map produced in the HRE where the Florentine explorer Amerigo's name was used. I propose that each of the four players, plus Portugal can suggest a name and the rest of the players can vote on it. Scandinator (talk) 14:19, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

my suggestion is Antília/Antillia.It has even a "natural poetic counterpart" with África, Ásia and Europa.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:24, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest the Germanic term Geheimnis. Not only is it cool sounding, but it fits with the largely German nomenclature that came from German Cartographers.(Geheimnis means mystery or secret) The Latin word Arcanium I also like. :) Bavaria, Andr3w777 (talk) 15:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Tamriel. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 18:01, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Shining Continent-from cap diamand near quebec city...an entire clifface that was mistaken to be diamond but was realy quartz....Galifrey is a neat name too... or novus....Novus is good...from Novus Mundi...New world...Novus Mundi eventualy drops the Mundi...becomes just the continent of Novus...Northern and southen Novus.-Lx (leave me a message) 18:13, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about Alfheimr, after the world of the elves in Norse mythology? When the Norweigan explorer discovers America, the Native Americans remind him of the elves described in the ancient myths? CourageousLife (talk) 20:00, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Middle Earth. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 20:48, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I like Antillia the best of the names suggested so far, it matches the pattern of most other continent names like Collie said. I'd actually like for the two continents to be named something different instead of just North/South whatever, more variety. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:06, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

So would it make more sense for South America to be Amazonia? CourageousLife (talk) 21:32, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Amazonia is very good, i like it =) Quiari (talk) 21:40, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Antillia is fine enough, but it is a very recent name (for the first time originating in 1424 OTL) so I'm not sure.

I don't think they'd name it secret; "secret continent" doesn't send much of an appeal to colonists. So colonials are not too possible to adopt.

Tamriel, Middle Earth and Gallifrey? Really?

The Shining Continent sounds more of a nickname than a proper name, and Novus Mundi is a bit too bad on the tongue (much like "Georgium Sidis" didn't stick for Uranus)

Alfheimr would make some sense, but since they're Christian and not Pagan, it'd really be a bit strange for them to adopt the name unless the Renaissance takes an equally large amount of influence in Scandinavia rather than Italy.

Amazonia is based on female warriors, a culture that only occured on the Amazon River. I really don't think it'd make so much sense. Although this and Antillia, and Alfheimr to a lesser degree, make the most sense. Fed (talk) 22:17, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Name it after the explorer? Or other explorers to go to America perhaps. Then you can make up a surname and call it whatever if you name it after your made up Explorer. E.g. Explorer Frederick VonGlusenburg landed in OTL Georgia, discovering the new continent. He names the new continent (OTL N-America) Glussonia after himself. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:21, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * i think that Reginssonia sounds more like a Cambrian/Ediacaran fossil than a continent.like: "Reginssonia terranovica"--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:14, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I think Von's proposal makes the most sense. After all, America came from a misspelling of Amerigo. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:11, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

What were they called in the last game? CourageousLife (talk) 23:14, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * ....America. (sigh) Actually, I think it was never agreed upon, and Nippon used America for the country of the USA (in South America) after their colonies became independent and joined up. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 00:08, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, I did ask if OTL Americas continent had been named anything different but I was never told it was called anything different hence I called it the United States of America. I would have been willing to name it something else but nothing was said. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I also like the name Ardeus or Arcadia/Arcadea. Both are pretty good names.Andr3w777 (talk) 23:16, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Intresting that you say, I was reading some months ago that it is a common mistake (which I believed till then) that America was named after Amerigo. The book aregued that it was named after a man by the name Richard Amerik. Who knows though... Saamwiil, the Humble 23:19, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I still like the idea of naming it for something describing the people or the landscape, something in the new world as opposed to who discovered it. CourageousLife (talk) 23:41, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Why Bavaria? Anywho, I shall suggest a name I like for the hell of it: North America = Vinland. (Even if he didn't discover it, he could assume that this is the place and call it that. Atlantis works too, since the oldest myths of a land beyond Europe described Atlantis. Maybe NA = Vinland and SA = Amazonia or Atlantis? I think we should send more explorers out and name it after one who makes a super great discovery, like living nations in the New World, like the Maya or something, or maybe new species, etc etc. If you folks don't agree with any of those, I guess we should go with Von's idea. (A Glussonia-esque name.)

Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 00:08, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Land of the Shining Nipples. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 01:06, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the diffuse votation/suggesting stage up to now gave the results: Antillia (3) [for north America], Amazonia (3) [for South America], unespecified variation of explorer's surname (3), and Alfheimr (2). shall we organize this votation into a voting stage and closing the suggestion stage, as nobody is suggesting since almost one day ago?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Aw, I was just getting used to Atlantis. I guess we might as well set up with those 3/4 suggestions and vote on it. My vote goes to Amazonia for SA and surname variation for NA. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 20:31, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I love Amazonia for the south, and for the north... i dont know... Quiari (talk) 20:46, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

again, Antillia for the north, and...I don't know for the south.name variation, perhaps?(but whatever variation will be, Reginssonia is totally out of question.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:02, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Then let's put it to a vote CourageousLife (talk) 21:23, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Antillia for the North and Arcadia for the South. Arcadia is a pleasing soundign name and goes along with Antillia.Andr3w777 (talk) 21:25, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Voting
Leave your signature under the section you wish to vote for.

North America

 * Antillia
 * CourageousLife (talk) 21:32, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Andr3w777 (talk) 21:33, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yank 21:47, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 22:05, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:12, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Royal Guns (talk) 00:23, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:26, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * ChrisL123 (talk) 03:28, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Airlinesguy (talk) 04:42, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:05, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zetsura (talk) 15:36, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alfheimr
 * Fed (talk) 23:05, October 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Novus
 * -Lx (leave me a message) 22:19, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * 67.225.41.146 14:01, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Explorer's Surname
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]]
 * Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 21:42, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Quiari (talk) 21:49, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tipakay (talk) 22:36, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:23, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Saamwiil, the Humble 13:35, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

South America

 * Amazonia
 * CourageousLife (talk) 21:32, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Quiari (talk) 21:36, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tipakay (talk) 22:15, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * -Lx (leave me a message) 22:21, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * ChrisL123 (talk) 03:28, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Airlinesguy (talk) 04:43, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Saamwiil, the Humble 13:38, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zetsura (talk) 15:33, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Atlantis (Atlantia)
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]]
 * Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 21:42, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yank 21:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:12, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fed (talk) 23:05, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Royal Guns (talk) 00:30, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:26, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:07, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * 67.225.41.146 14:01, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Explorer's Surname
 * <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:23, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Arcadia
 * Andr3w777 (talk) 21:33, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 22:00, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Map
For PMI, anybody wiling to make a "modern" map of the world? Because the actual map still looks like the 1400s for some reason... it would be great to have a "modern" map. I can't, because I'm terrible at map making :D PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:20, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

By "modern" I assume you mean 1494, but I think that labeled maps are only updated every 50 years. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:20, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with the PMI map was that it was pretty much never updated. It stayed pretty stagnant for most of the game. --Yank 12:23, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah a new named map should be made out of the 1500 map. There are a fair few map problems which need to be sorted out first though, we should focus on getting the named maps as accurate as possible! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:21, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

I just put a map up... can you at least see that??', used please Tipakay (talk) 14:45, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

...I was talking about the PMI map guys. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 18:48, October 19, 2012 (UTC)