Talk:Knightfall

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=General Discussion=

Welcome
Welcome everyone to this timeline. Mscoree (talk)

This should be really interesting. Let's see what we can do. Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:56, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Hallo, gents. There are a couple of things we need to work out 'fore we get to it. POD is December 11th, 1241, where Oggy Khan survives.
 * 1) We need a peer-review process
 * 2) We need to agree on a general timeline for the first 100 years or so, so people don't get confused and start clashing their canon.

ATM, we're looking at the furthest reaches of the Mongols hitting South-Eastern France, Most of Germany- a few bits to the North-West would be spared, by and large- and most of Italy. They'll be keeping Eastern Europe up to about Poland. And, of course, Khanstantinople.

After that comes the Black Plague, which piggy-backs the horde. Based on estimates from OTL- from China and Europe- we estimated that in Germany, France, and Italy, we could be talking death rates of between 65-80% of the populace. The Mongols and the Plague combined killed something like 55% of the population of China around this time. In Europe, JUST the plague killed 65% or so. This primarily due to the fact that there are far more city dwellers in Europe than China. Since the Mongols would be sweeping the countryside, people would hole up in cities- where the plague would sweep deadly.

18:36, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

So is the whole Mongol Empire going to be divided between Genghis Khan's descendants (like Ilkhanate, Golden Horde, etc) or is it going to stay whole?

20:44, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

No way it would stay whole. The main difference in this timeline is that there will be at least one more khanate than OTL, and it will be in Europe. Other parts of Europe will be vassals/tributary states, particularly in Germany, similar to Russia in OTL. Lastly some areas in Europe will have been raided, but the extent of how far that goes is up for debate. That's pretty much what we brainstormed so far on chat last night (in between arguing with Pita). Mscoree (talk) 20:59, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, I was wondering if I could join the TL? U p v o t e a n t h o l o g y  ( <font color="#3C8D0D">T <font color="#FF0000">, <font color="#3C8D0D">S <font color="#FF0000">)'

=Proposals=

Upvoteanthology
Although he is relatively new, Upvote is a very hard worker and a great writer. I nominate him for entrance into this timeline.

Votes

 * Yes
 * No
 * No

General Timeline Proposal 1.0
In 1242, Batu Khan and the Mongol horde sweep into Balkanized Germany and Austria. Most of the Austrian countryside is overrun within two months, and Vienna is taken after a defector opens a backdoor into the city, allowing the Mongols to swarm into the city. Vienna is razed to the ground and its most of its civilian population executed. Most of the rest of the nation surrenders upon hearing of the fall of Vienna.

In Germany, initial success bogs down as too much time is needed to capture each individual principality, as there is no central authority to surrender to the invaders. Frustrated, Ögedei's forces are forced to leave behind hundreds of castles as they continue with their swift move westward. It takes them over six months to overrun (still with castles left behind) most of Germany.

In order to counter the Mongol threat, the Catholic Church declares a defensive crusade, calling on all Christian nations to fight the Mongol invaders. England, Portugal, Castille, Aragon, Leon, France, and even Sweden respond with by volunteering troops - with Venice staying out of the war. However, each clash between the Crusaders and the Mongols results in a decisive Mongol victory due to superior tactics. But, Mongol forces are losing the war of attrition, with many horses dying from starvation, overworking, and battle. Only 4,000 Mongols have died compared to 22,000 Europeans, but their original army was not all that large. More importantly, they are losing horses - the ideal ratio of 5-15 horses per soldier is reduced to 3, and the army has lost 15% of its manpower. All this sets up the final stand of European force in Germany.

On November 22, 1242, against the advise of his senior leadership, Batu Khan and his 29,000 Mongols and 31,000 Turkish auxillaries move into the Teutoburg Forest, determined to take out the last vestiges of Germanic resistance, who are holed up in teh forest. Lead by relatively unknown German commander General Adolf von Hohenstaufen, descendant of the Hohenstaufen royal bloodline, utilizes the thick foliage (which restricted Mongol horse movements greatly) and ambush with a nearly all-German force (the French army had fled the forest upon hearing of the Mongol advance) almost completely annihilates the Mongol force in a decisive engagement not unlike the first Battle of Teutoburg Forest. 11,000 Mongols are killed, an unprecedented number for a relatively untouched Mongol army. Of the original 31,000 Turkish auxillaries only 9,000 remained, with the rest having been killed, captured, or fled. Batu Khan himself nearly survives and retreats out of the forest, humiliated and defeated.

Now with a far smaller force than originally planned, Batu Khan is forced to retreat. However, good news arrives - Kadan, son of Ögedei, is arriving with one tumen - 10,000 men - of reinforcements. He still remains cautious, however, remembering his defeat in the Teutoburg Forest.

Then, in a surprise move on Christmas Day, 1242, the city of Venice reveals that they have sought and received a treaty of alliance with the Mongols - partly because of their desire to spite the church, and partly because the Mongols control the Silk Road, which Venice relies on for trade. Meanwhile, France has signed a non-aggression pact with the horde, seeking to break away from the influence of the Papacy. All French forces remaining (most had already left under various excuses) retreat back into France, leaving the Papacy bare to the Mongol threat. Faced with the threat of the Mongols and Venice, which the church has always had a strained relationship with, the Vatican reluctlantly invites Batu Khan for discussions of peace.

After a three-day negotiation, the Mongols sign the Treaty of the Holy See. What used to be the eastern part of the Holy Roman Empire is absorbed into the Mongol Empire, as well as Eastern Europe. France is kept mostly safe from Mongol raids, with most raids going towards the Low Countries, Italy, and even Switzerland. General Adolf von Hohenstaufen is given the kingship over what remains of the Holy Roman Empire, elevating the House of Hohenstaufen once more.

Meanwhile, reports begin circulating of a mysterious new plague...

PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

My first thoughts on this matter are in regards to your comments on the Holy Roman Empire. Although they aren't really centralized, the Holy Roman Empire had about as much of a central government as say France did, although many historians point to the current emperor at the time of this timeline, Frederick II, as being the start of decentralization. At this time Frederick II had a large army in Italy, which he would probably march north, along with additional forces levied from within the empire, and combat the Mongols. I think this invasion might temporarily end the feud between the papacy and the emperor, since both groups would have to band together against the Mongols. You'd probably see a large crusade, spearheaded by Germans (like many of Frederick's OTL ones), but including large armies from all across Europe.

I'd say a treaty is probably signed in Germany or in Padua, where Frederick II held court for long periods of time, and in the off chance it's held in Rome, they would probably not call the "Treaty of the Holy See". More like "of Rome" at the least, or a long Latin phrase.

Who is this Adolf guy, did you make him up? Also what do you mean by elevating the Hohenstaufens? They are already in control of the empire.

I have to think more on the actual timeline here, but from first glance those are my initial thoughts. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 21:56, December 15, 2014 (UTC)