Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common, electricial experimentation

 * All of Russian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Swedish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of French territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hungarian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Persian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Prussian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Chinese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hanthawaddian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Bharatian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Korean territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Nipponese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Vvietnamese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Incan territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Itsaygahian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Neue Brandenburian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Spanish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Napolitian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns, electricity used in cities

 * None

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about electricity? we have to assume that something like the voltaic pile eventually was discovered?i mean, already is 1818 and nothing about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:58, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Stability
2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Due to the vote, in which every voting player agreed, this system will now be used for all nations (however, some changes have been proposed based upon industrialization) LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:54, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm Results and Moderator Revolts
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/z+y)*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory.

For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Stability vote
Since the table is still not up, though its been promised for months, and since whenever Scandinator does promise a deadline, he partially fills the table up and then abandons it for weeks on end to become outdated, I have come to the conclusion he will never get it done, and thus the stability system will never work. Since whenever I attempt to simply bring this up he always makes excuse after excuse and delays for month after month, I am hearby just going to bring forward the motion to a vote to go back to the old system, which we could find out own stability and did not require all algorithms to wait for one player to come up with a number which we have no way to verify whether it is true or not. Voting will end this time tomorrow. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:33, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Return to the Old Stability Curve for the reasons above

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 22:37, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * RandomWriterGuy 22:40, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Galaguerra1 22:52, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * --Yank 23:43, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zagoria 03:33, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * if add bonus for pop. and industry-Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Scand's procrastination is absolutely disgusting. You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. --Yank 23:47, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Please note that I sympathize with Scandinator being too busy to work on the table. However, if you are too busy for months, too busy for the entire forseeable future, then you are too busy for the job. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:19, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

You sicken me! CrimsonAssassin 16:01, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The Thing is that Population and industrialisation, one of the greatest factors in warat this point in history, will not be taken into account,so add some sort of bonus in the algorithm(like a populaiton ratio bonus(10:1 ratio, nation with more gets 10 point bonus), and some sort of industry bonus, Scan is taking too long, and return to the old table or system would be easier. -Lx (leave me a message) 16:27, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The old stability system factored in population (the equation used the years of the government's existance and the digits in the population as variables). For the industrialization thing, if you can think of a bonus, you can propose it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, I forgot about eh multiplication that we got rid of. For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus-Lx (leave me a message) 01:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0)-Lx (leave me a message) 01:44, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, 24 hours have passed, and everyone is either in agreement or hasn't voted. Therefore, I hearby declare the new system null and void and a return to the stability curve hearby in effect. Lx, you should make a new section for "Industrialization Stability/Algorithm bonus" where we can discuss new ideas for that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:48, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have probably not heard from Scan for weeks. And he is the only person who is good for the stability. WHERE HAS HE GONE?! RandomWriterGuy 04:12, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea, Lx.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:36, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, calm down. He is in Orlando having a holiday (which he kinda deserves). You would know that if you read posts, lol. :P Imperium Guy 12:07, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Calm down?! Forget that! Freak the hell out.THIS IS A DISASTER! THE ENTIRE WIKI MIGHT SHUT DOWN!!!!!
 * You also don't need to react like those SOPA and PIPA bills were about to pass.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

People, keep calm and carry on. CrimsonAssassin 22:31, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

You forgot the crown Crim. It would be "[crown] keep calm and carry on. :P Imperium Guy 22:35, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nice no find this at the end of my holiday... Good to see you spent my 48 hours flying or in transit doing something useful. I was planning to update the table now that I am back in Sydney with my laptop but seeing as it is crossed out... Scandinator (talk) 23:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, we just wanted to make it clear that it was not being used. If we we put it in really small print instead, would it make you feel better? CrimsonAssassin 02:20, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization bonus for war
For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0), or we could just use the difference for all of the ones(not only if there is a -Lx (leave me a message) 14:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts? I guess I can make this a vote.

Discussion
I think that this only may be used by wars among player nations.A example of what might happen is if hypothetically, Russia, after updating their industry or similars for five consecutive years tries to invade the southern Shwaili state.given that the AI didn 't post, we will have to put their number of updates a 0. their bonus scores then become like this: SSS: (1x1+0)/R: (3x3+5).- SS: 1/R:14. This, if done correctly, can give a big advantage over industrially weaker states, specially if they are AI.somebody remembers when we used larger numbers for stability, the player nations came to have larger stability numbers than what could ever be acheived by a AI, and then we procceeded to invade such nations (Mameluks, Ottomans, Inca, Hafsids, maybe others). to avoid this to happen again, i think that we should use this bonus for wars among player nations, and not AI-plaayer nations, as i said before.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:50, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Or we can use a different system for the AI, and have their color be the Industry, but remember, in history, the European States dominated because of their Industrial Power, and the fact that the industrial armies of The Brittish and the french went up against the industrialy and technologicaly weaker nodal/nomadic states.

Franco-Vietnamese War 1866
France
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 47 (France (L), Malouinas (MV), Haiti (MV), Burgundy (MV), Nouvelle-France (MV), Venice (MVW), Sicily (SVW), Russia (M), South Africa (MV), Novorossiya (MV), Kazakhztan (MV), Poland (MV), Újfundlandi (MV), Italy (MV), Neue Brandenburg (M), Nippon (M), Finland (M), Persia (M), Yemen (MV))
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -4
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Puppet States: -4
 * Chance: 824/20*pi =129.43
 * Editcount = 824
 * Time:1*5*4 =20
 * Stability: 1.3^1.25/1.25^1.3*2.5*8=21 (rounded)
 * Total: 76

Vietnam

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 33 (Vietnam (L), Burma (MV), Kenia (MV), Taiwan (MV), Dravidia (M), Brunei (M), Newfoundlandian rump state [Ungava] (M), Uruguay (S), Sweden (M), Baltic Alliance (MV), Hanover (MV), Fjordlaand (M), Istoias (S)
 * Puppet States: -2
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -3
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Chance: 8057/8*pi=3,163.9765
 * Editcount = 8057
 * Time:4*2 = 8
 * Stability: 8.0^1.25/1.25^8.0*2.5*8=45
 * Total: 93

Result
Vietnam is most likely to be the victor.

Discussion
I know both nations have vassals and allies and whatnot, but none have posted that they are entering thus far from what I can see, so add them yourselves. (note, if you are in alliance with a player nation, even dynastic union, that player needs to post for it to be recognized). LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Old Russian colonies support france because they have to. Russians dont realy like it though, but the fracturing party after Mehseryakov's demise will not be good to Charles-Louis in the end.

Yank, I'm not planning keeping any territory I manage to conquest. Except may be Furanchesou, if you agree. --Galaguerra1 02:19, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

What year did the Russian and French legislatures merge? Because that's the biggest change in government I can think of recently. I need that for stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

1853 --Galaguerra1 02:39, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

OK, now they are complete unless more people join. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:42, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg enters the war on the French side... Sorry for being a little late...Zagoria 02:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Only 12 point difference. Could be tight... LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I just have 4 puppets, Nouvelle-France, Haiti, Újfundlandi and Malouinas, while Italy and Burgundy are vassals, unless you're counting Sicily and Venice, but they're administrated by Lurker. Also the provisional govenrment of Ungava should probably be on the vietnamese side.--Galaguerra1 02:51, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dayak Federation is supporting Vietnam--Sawdog88

The color made me think Adal was a puppet. Anyways, what is Ungava? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

The French took control of all newfoundland up to Saglek Bay. Ungava is all of Newfoundland which was not taken.It will be referred like this on the future, because after the war, The Newfoundlandians on the main island will form a government of their own, and will not recognize the Newfoundland Ungavan state, and they won't recognize the island state neither.think of Taiwan/China.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wait... South Africa? this means that the Russian colony there is independent now?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ya...they can do whatever but diplomacy is handeled by Russia. I planned to do this regardless of France, its about this time in history. -Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I added Nippon, Persia and Finland, are their vassals (if any) supporting me? I suposed Finland and Persia are supporting me as int he last turns, please confirm. --Galaguerra1 16:41, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I want to set out my territorial claims ahead of time. Yank 03:35, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I will give France Furansuchou, especially if the current Franco-Russian regime is taken down.
 * 2) I want Haiti, or just a portion of it.
 * 3) I want a portion of Russia's Novorossiya colony.

This wasn't supose to anyone to take any territory, in fact, I wasn't even planning to use algorithms until you create one. The Franco-russian union will fall, but I don't know what to say about the rest. I would like to have Furanchesou, but, if I must give you a part of Haiti, I prefer it the way it is. If you want territory, you can take it over, is your right, you made an algorithm, but you can't demand any territory from Russia. --Galaguerra1 03:59, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon's vassals & puppets I don't think would get involved as they are only really leaning towards this side because Nippon is forcing them. The Commonwealth won't be participating in the war on either side too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:16, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I will agree to witdraw all territorial claims, and the world returns to satus quo ante bellum. I still insist that the Franco-Russian-Italian union be dissolved, at which time I will sell Furansuchou to the post-Imperialist Frech regime.

Yank 23:40, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I already agreed with Galaguerra that the Italian portion, at least, would become free very soon after the war (this basically means all pre-war European Neapolitan territory, plus Tunisia and Pahang). RandomWriterGuy can keep Vicia though, I never really did anything with that land and I was planning on making them independent but a grey nation not controlled anyways. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:49, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Can I annex the traditionally english area of Calais? Scandinator (talk) 08:57, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer you to not. Besides, that city hasn't been english in centuries. --Galaguerra1 16:54, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Is it possible that the war would end in a stalemate instead? RandomWriterGuy 19:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

No. The entire French side is on the verge of collapsing into revolutions and smaller states, there's no way they could win, especially since with all the people withdrawing the algorithm difference will become huge. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:32, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

But Persia can keep control of Vicia, since I never really had anything to do with it. You can say the Incan remnant of the population decided they liked the Persians better than the Neapolitans. They'll still be heavily Catholic though. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:35, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe in the middle of the chaos the Incans deside they want their Independence back.-Tim

I can keep the Neapolitan South American colony, but the recent Vietnamese colony I took will be handed back to Vietnam. RandomWriterGuy 22:06, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I changed the result due to what is going on. RandomWriterGuy 22:06, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

France
We need to unite our forces to defeat this warmonger! Who's with me?

Yank 00:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia is with you. Istoias and Ricasolia are in conflict over which side to join. Naples would help Vietnam, but France already defeated them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:57, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

When's Scandinator coming back? He's kind of the Great Britain in my napoleonic plan. Also internal problem in the mesheryakovist faction will help you defeating me. Malouians will turn against France, and massive protest will be held. I hope you'll fegure out a plan to defeat France and take it to that outbreak point. --Galaguerra1 01:37, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Please note that my current Shogun is a bit of a tyrant, he's going to be on the French side and try carving out an even larger Nipponese empire by attacking Sweden in the South Pacific, Vietnam's Taiwan & New Lithuanian vassals (as well as blockading the straights of Malacca to stop Vietnamese aid reaching Europe), and Brunei too. However eventually Shogun Iemochi will be overthrown in a coup by the pro-emperor politicians and clans. There will then be a civil war very similar to OTL Boshin War, and the pro-emperor people will set up a new provincial government to rule Nippon until the civil war is over. The Tokugawa forces will be forced into retreat to Kamochatoka, where they will stay for a while, supplied by their Russian allies; but will fall when the Russians stop supplying them. Don't worry all the land I conquer in these next few years will be returned VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC).

Same here, my maharaja is tired of the mahajhapanas doing the decision making and he will also be toppled in a coup and be replaced by his son, although there won't be much of a civil war after that though 'cause he's going to have much of a following. :P Imperium Guy 13:33, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Why are you trying to attack France? RandomWriterGuy 17:14, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Because they are invading all sorts of nations? And we have talked about this sort of thing for months? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:12, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Scramble for Africa
Songonese scientists are coming in with breakthroughs with cinchona bark (native to OTL Ecuador) as treatment for malaria. As in OTL, this will be one of the main factors to kickstart the exploration and conquest of the interior of Africa. The technology shall become widespread and ready for use throughout the Americas in 1871. The technology is free to use by any European power or colony in 1875, and it is ready to use anywhere else by 1880. Thus, expansion in tropical or marshy areas will be multiplied by 1.5 until otherwise decided.

However, keep in mind that in order for the 1.5 multiplier to apply, you cannot create major settlements except along the coast (i.e. Mozambique, Senegal, etc.) —this is known as indirect rule, for the purposes of our game. This keeps the culture of the interior intact. If you wish to create settlements in the interior (i.e. South Africa), the 1.5 can not apply —this is called direct rule. You cannot mix and match.

More information: if your technological level does not include steamships, then you cannot benefit from the 1.5 multiplier. Also, you are advised to stay along major bodies of water. There is a reason why areas with major rivers were the most sought after in OTL. Do your research!

Make decisions wisely and let the Scramble Begin! Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:06, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have been waiting for this moment for a long time...-Lx (leave me a message) 03:08, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Why does Europe get a 6 year bonus? In this timeline, many Asian nations are advanced and industrialized, and have colonies in the Americas as well- In fact, the largest American colonial Empire is the Chinese one. Why then should Europe get the advantage? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:34, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

^ This CrimsonAssassin 13:52, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say any nation can get the bonus in 1875, since the European only seems to be either biased or simply tied into our timeline. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:34, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

The vote went through, any nation that has a colonial empire can get the bonus next turn. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:03, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

The Map Change!
I saw that Scan changed the map because he said that no Spanish territory takeover until MofS was back. Is that fair? I understand that he said it was not good how we were taking Spain's territory without the playing being here, but I had an algorithim and I only took over his colony. Imperium Guy 18:08, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Didn't Scandinator read the last discussion? There is no rule against attacking players who are not gone. You can say it is courteous not to, but there is no rule stopping it. Plus, Scandinator isn't even a mapmaker. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:36, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless if MofS was here or not, he would of still lost the algorithm. I agree with Imp, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:07, April 14, 2012 (UTC).

Ricasolia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: 12 (Ricasolia (L), Isolque (M), Istoias (M), Sicily (SV), Venice (SV))
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States: -0
 * Chance: 3673/48*pi =240.397288
 * Editcount = 3673
 * Time:1*6*4*2=48
 * Stability: 7.2^1.25/1.25^7.2*2.5*7=41
 * Total: 79

Persia

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4 (Persia (L), Yemen (MV))
 * Puppet States: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Expansion: -1
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 4051/36*pi=353.51
 * Editcount =4051
 * Time:1*6*2*3=36
 * Stability: 3.0^1.25/1.25^3.0*2.5*8=40
 * Total: 47

Result
Ricasolia crushes Persia.

Discussion
Wow, the Persians get crushed because all they do is try and gobble up more territory and never have anything actually go on in their nation. That and RandomWriterGuy apparently misses 72 days worth of the gameplay involving Haiti because of all the copy-pasta. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:04, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I canceled this war already. RandomWriterGuy 17:06, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Stop cancelling wars just because you realize that you are going to lose them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:29, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

So, the war stays cancelled or we carry on with it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:27, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I already retconned all of my posts, but how about this: next time something like this happens, the war won't be retconned unless all players involved (AKA anyone who responded) agree. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:08, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam

 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: 6 Vietnam (L), Kenia (MV)
 * Puppet States:
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -3
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Chance:
 * Stability: 8.0^1.25/1.25^8.0*2.5*8=45
 * Total:

South Swahili

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4 South Swahili (L)
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States: 0
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Scamble for Africa Vote
I see no reason why Europe should be allowed to start 5 years early, as many East Asian nations, such as China and Vietnam, have huge colonial empires as well. Thus, I move to allow all nations to begin using the modifier in 1875. Voting will last 24 hours. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:39, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

For

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * Maybe base the bonus off your industrialization stage? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Galaguerra1 23:00, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 09:05, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 13:49, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yank 15:57, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:12, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * RandomWriterGuy 05:00, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Against

 * Scandinator (talk) 23:28, April 18, 2012 (UTC) Yes but no Asian nation has had a large colony in Africa and held it for a long time. Contrast that with the Northern African colonies, New Songhai, the South African colonies. I'm saying at most Vietnam will also be included but not Nippon, China, Bharat, Persia and Korea; nations which have not ever expressed interest in Africa and have been more focused on the Americas till now. Maybe they can get a South/North America bonus? NOTE: Sweden has no interest in Africa at this point in time so this comment is on a neutral base.

Discussion
Lol I don't even have any colonies... :) PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:33, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * You still have one. a 1 px colony in Australia that you couldn't give to Sweden.this was because if i gave it, he would stay with 8 colonies--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:45, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam has a large colony in Africa and their vassal is quite powerful as well!! :P Imperium Guy 09:05, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Notice its the players with EUROPEAN nations opposing changing this? And so what if you haven't had a colony in Africa for a long time? You could say that every time someone sets up a new colony somewhere different. Giving the bonus to just European nations is just biased; I mean are you saying that one of the small German states or Balkan nations has more of an advantage/right than China, Vietnam, Nippon or Bharat in colonizing Africa? The bonus should be based on industrialization or strength of nation: after all not every European country in OTL had African colonies --VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:52, April 19, 2012 (UTC).

Austria-Hungary is the best example.But this part of strength is right.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:11, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Somebody can explain how i can use this bonus on my colonies?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:14, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

The current system is just based on geography, Scandinator. Currently, if a new player joined as Romania, he would have the bonus while Vietnam would not. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:17, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

24 hours have passed, and the vote is 7 to 1 in favor. Therefore, I'll amend the announcement. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I am indifferent to the colonies bonus, all my former colonies in Africa declared independance before this...-Lx (leave me a message) 12:18, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

And again!
Um, Persia gave me its Australian colony because I supported it in its invasion of the Swedish colony in Southy America but our troops withdrew when Persia declared that they had won!! :D Imperium Guy 11:39, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I too have an issue with the map, the Sultanate of Sokotara has been expanding into that grey nation in OTL Somalia and it hasn't been shown. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:29, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Imperium. We didn't really "won". It's just a withdraw because Russia was losing the war and I did not want to take any chances. ):

P.S. What is that orange territory on OTL Brazil? RandomWriterGuy 15:30, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg.Frankly, how you didn't noticed it until now?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh shame, looks like I have to invade it... only joking! :P Imperium Guy 17:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Nouvelle-Gascogne has expanded to get a way to expand (outlet ot the black territories), and shouldbe coloured blue. Songhay and Nouvelle-Normandie should also be blue. They are colonies of France, as Guiée, while Akon is a vassal.

And, RWG, don't be offended but... Do you even read other ones's posts or you just copy-paste not even reading the events? --Galaguerra1 18:13, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * What? you are trying to say that Nouvelle Normandie is expanding north?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:36, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

The copy pasting is just for colonial expansion. Nothing else more. RandomWriterGuy 05:09, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Request
Could a new industrialization map be put up as I think the old map is outdated by atleast 50 years. Thank you! :D Imperium Guy 18:27, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I will update it when i have the time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:29, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Updated.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:35, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Collie, much appreciated! :D Imperium Guy 10:50, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden and Russia
Sweden cannot take any territory from Russia unless LxCaucassus agrees, as the algorithm was between Vietnam and France, and thus, only France can be forced to lose any territory. No one else can lose anything without volunterily agreeing to. Since Lx has refused to give that land to Sweden, Scandinator cannot take it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:26, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Does this mean he's becoming increasingly implausible? --RandomWriterGuy 19:32, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, but see for yourself what happened when they both resolved to fight a ATL equivalent of the Great Northern War; Great Northern War (Archive Section 4) this is the worst case of what occasionally happens in wars between Sweden and Russia.read the posts below the algorythm to get a picture.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:57, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Scan, you need to cut this out. You've been warned before, for chrissake. Lordganon 19:40, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Then we go about this the old-fashioned way: Algorithims. Me and Scan are right now trying to establish a foothold against the Russians in the Americas. :P Imperium Guy 21:22, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Another Sweden-Russia war over Lithuania? This conflict has become horribly long drawn out (although not as ridiculous as the Venetian hatred of Vietnam). LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:25, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

But, regardless, it will take another algorithm to win any territory from Russia, you cannot take any territory from the current war, as its loser was France. If this turns into Great Northern war 5, I'm going to be mad, and so are the Swedish people, most likely. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:29, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Alright I'll stick with Calais only. Scandinator (talk) 22:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Also if I had been allowed to take the full algorythm bonus from the second war then none of the other two (3rd and 4th) would have started. I want Lithuania so that I can complete my original plan for the Baltic Alliance and Alaska because I was there first. Scandinator (talk) 23:24, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Since Galaguerra agreed to let you take Calais, you can keep that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:26, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

But Onguayal is at war with the Russian colony, so what should I do about that. I intend to capture the Russian colony, so... :/ Imperium Guy 11:49, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

That colony is actualy French. Russia has no colonies in South America. And Fine, I will let Scan have Alaska if he lets me have BC and The REst of the West Coast-Lx (leave me a message) 12:12, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

No we return to pre war borders. Scandinator (talk) 06:35, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I say Status quo ante bellum, meaning everything ebfore the war should be restored, including the Franco-Russian Union if they like. RandomWriterGuy 01:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Onguayal (L), Bharat (M), Manoa (MV), Jaffna (MV), Old ACG colony (MV), Old Hattanwaddy portion (MV), Sweden (M)/ UGS (MV)/ IEC (MV) Baltic Alliance (MV), Dravidia (M): 25
 * Military:7
 * Expansion:-6
 * Puppet States:-2
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 9
 * UTC Time: 19:19 = 81
 * Edits: 7734
 * (7734/81)*pi = 299.963 9 2
 * Stablity: 0.9^1.25/1.25^0.9*2.5*7=12
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 66

France

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: France (L), Akon (MV): 17
 * Military: 0
 * Expansion: -2
 * Puppets: -4
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: (No reply)
 * Stablity: 0.3^1.25/1.25^0.3*2.5*8=4.15
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 37+Chance

Result
Looks like Onguayali victory. TBD

Discussion
That colony is Russian. Lx you need to pay more attention. Its the one in the Andes. Scandinator (talk) 00:17, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ou yay! then send all of Russian Vassals and stuff to the aid, and the Colonies dont have much choice, thats Novorossiya, South Africa, Poland-Lithuania-Belarus(personal Union), Kazakhstan, The Iroquois and Armenia. That Sould do it. that would be 13 extra points, I guess...and if its in the Andes, I am pretty sure that it would count as High ground(becasue of the andes mountains being incredibly high), bit Heck, I'm not an expert about the geography of south America. Also, If a colony is being attacked, then I would assume its life or death, and the attacker would not get the Life or death motive(I know I tried to do this, but every time I declred war on Poland its because the throne of Lithuania was "Claimed" by poland...I know that' no better, but every time It was reduced to political motive, so this should not be an exception).-Lx (leave me a message) 00:21, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

and BTW, where is ONguayal anyways? I thought that colony was french...We were the same colour...and If I did get it its probablhy becasue of a tach or land trade, I did not establish any colonies, and did not aid in the war against Hanthawaddy, so...I did not think its mine...-Lx (leave me a message) 00:28, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

WTF? The colony in the andes is ''mine. ''I posted that the mapmakers should colour it blue (what they didn't). Is Nouvelle-Normandie. Seriously, I've been expanding it the last decades and no one know is mine?--Galaguerra1 01:58, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal is the country which is in the Bharati colour (although I think that is wrong as it is a semi-independent state). I think it is the French colony (sorry Gal, but I really need a link to the sea), because that is what Gal told me and so did Lx. :/ Imperium Guy 07:30, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The colony is French. it only was in Russian color last map because i forgot to color it..--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:02, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Could someone fill in the French military and expansion please? :D Imperium Guy 10:57, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, would Onguayal be able to become yellow on the industrialization map if it successfully captures the French colony and connects raidroads to the factories in the former French colony, transporting superior industrial techniqes and workers as well as equipment to build factories? And what happens if my majority is great enough for a government transplant of the French? :/ Imperium Guy 17:43, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The French and Russian stabilities are the same. Are any French vassals helping? I removed the Russian ones because they are no longer at war with Russia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:25, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I'l sell you the southern outlet to the sea, but I want to keep most of that land. I've worked hard to expand that colony, and you passed through mine, took the country I was planning to invade (Onguayal) without asking me, and then attacked me when I jsut helped you to obtain that land and didn't protest when you took it. I want at least make all that effot worth and keep most of the land. You'll have an outle to the sea and a way to expand south. --Galaguerra1 17:43, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

When you put it that way, it makes me feel bad. I will agree to your request, but on three conditions (the latter two are silly): I get the southern potion of the colony as shown on the map, cricket is made your official sport and you alert Bharat when you invade Aisac-Loirenne, so we can send you all the supprot we can muster. I think the conditions are not bad and although I might take quite a bit from your colony, you have to see I agreed to negociate and you retain the northern portion of you colony (I would have won otherwise). :/ Imperium Guy 17:59, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

O.o, sorry, I might have exagerated. I accept your terms. The next decade I will probably invade Rhineland, so I'll make you know. The next year, the first hindu cricket trainers will be requested, so France will beocme a part of the all mighty bharati cricket colonial empire (?). Thank you very much. I have sufficient land to keep expanding. --Galaguerra1 19:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the cricket colonial empire, but yes France will become part of the cricket playing nations. On top of that, I plan to have a South American Regional Cricket Championship. Glad you have accepted the terms, and the war will end in 1881. :D Imperium Guy 19:49, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Galaguerra, you did not post any such claim to being the one to conquer Onguayal, so stop acting like you are somehow wronged in it being taken over in the first place. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:38, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

The dark
It is 1880 and based on current colonization speeds by 2012 we will still have "unexplored" areas. I'm saying we really need to speed up all colonization. Scandinator (talk) 01:12, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, I'm having Dravidia expand Kongo as fast as I can into the Congo basin area, but otherwise much of Africa and parts of South America will still be "unclaimed". LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:38, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Here is my proposal: we have a African, South American,and Australian division conference for the next two turns after this one (1881 and 1882), in which the black areas are divided up. After which, colonial expansion within a nation's colonial claims from the conferences are not bound by colonial expansion, only by plausibility (like normal expansion). Also, expansion within grey areas within Africa and South America are still limited by the colonial expansion, but are treated as if they were black. Expansion in areas not claimed by your nation, and grey areas not in Africa or South America, would still follow the standard colonial expansion equation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:47, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

North America? I propose Hungary hosts it as it is in a central location. Scandinator (talk) 08:35, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary seems to be beginning a phase of turmoil, I think Naples might be a bit better position. :/ Imperium Guy 10:59, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Then either Naples or Bharat. RWG might do something random if we put it in Persia. Or he might copy paste and remain oblivious to the entire conference. Scandinator (talk) 11:02, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

If we have two positions, then one of the conferences should be solely for Africa and one for solely South America. Thoughts? :D Imperium Guy 11:05, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

No, Hungary accepts the part of host. explaining the recent events: i was thinking on a way to get Serbia to be independent, as i said that some nation would break off of Hungary in this century.as you know, is Serbia.i got to the conclusion that it will be promoted to a autonomous government on the model of Itsaygahi, but it later, will declare independence.the Albanian movement already stagnated, and will stay like this for some time, but by the time that this emnds, Serbia, Diocleia and Albania wll become something like autonomous provinces, on the way that you saw in Itsaygahi/Tsalagi. eventually, Serbia declares independence, and annexes Diocleia.Albania stays like this until the decolonization proccess begins, when the province will lose importance, and in some time, will also declare independence.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:00, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. i think that was me misreading it. But beware, I how have the oppotunity to establish 2 more colonies, so I will be establishing them. It just depends on what areas of Africa I could colonize. :D Imperium Guy 17:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I got it. Maybe by the 1890's, we can establish one colony per year and expand them in rates like 1000000x1000000 sq. mi. or other stuff. RandomWriterGuy 22:40, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * No.the maximum number of colonies that a nation can have is 7.and, don't forget that after 1945, you only can have 3 colonies at maximum.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:55, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well in OTL, nations had many colonies. Why can't we do the same thing. RandomWriterGuy 14:01, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then we are going to need new rules for expansion. and your proposal, concerning size of expansion, is way off.in one year you could expand one trillion square miles, according to your calculation.this is impossible, even in real life.if you disregard the multiplication, and expand one 1 million square miles, in 10 years, you could annex more territory that the Mongol Empire ever held at it's peak.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:18, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Since we are going for central location, the city where the conference would be held could be Pozsony, or Bécs.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:55, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Moving on. What will the date of the conference be? We are already late by about 10 years (I think) compared to OTL. :s Imperium Guy 17:30, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

How about we try to keep it as close to the OTL conference (1884-1885), and do it in, 1883?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:09, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

1883 sounds alright to me. So we will be discussing the fate of South America and Africa, correct? :D Imperium Guy 20:40, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Just start now cause its gonna last many in game years anyway. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:45, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Recent German moderator events
I crossed out Scandinator's recent German moderator events, due to the fact that they are implausible, potentially biased, and another moderator agreed. Here, I am stating my reasons for crossing out this event, as I feel moderator events should only be removed if a good reason is given.

Berlin and Silesia are rising nations, their governments would have the strong support of people who are grateful to be pulled out of decades of civil disarray. There is no way that they would suddenly just collapse and implode like that, since they had been doing so well and expanding for the past several years. The German people are tired of more than 40 years of civil war, anyone who wanted to pull them back into that chaos would have no support. It is clearly implausible

The reason I am bringing up the subject of bias is that, just after Scandinator makes a new German puppet state whose goal he clearly states is to reunite the German area, he has the few rival states which could unite large portions of that area collapse all of a sudden. To me, this implausible event seems to quite plainly be an opportunity for his German puppet state to suddenly swoop in and unite northern Germany. As he has shown a great interest in this area before, and there have been instances in the past of Scandinator being accused (by me) of misusing moderator powers in this area.

I personally think that it is unethical for moderators to be causing moderator events in areas which their nations are interested. If I had posted the event in which Itsaygahi broke apart, and then the very next turn launched a major attack from one of my nations into Itsaygahi, it would clearly have been me using my moderator powers to weaken my foe. If I had caused the Kongo nation to suddenly implode and go black on the map, right before I established my Dravidian colony there, I would have clearly been misusing my moderator powers. Unless the event is historical (like a natural disaster), no moderator should use moderator events to weaken areas in which one of their nations is attempting to expand in, especially if said event is implausible. To do so is unethical. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

This actually kind of reminds me of the Persian unrest incident. I mean, Scan cannot do it without evidence. In fact, he put it all there without proof, just like right now. SHould we bar him from non-disaster mod events? RandomWriterGuy 01:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Proof/evidence of what, exactly? Do you mean reasons? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

You can say that. RandomWriterGuy

I think stuff to do with Persia was because your stablity was low and I think he wanted you to work on your stablity or your country would break apart. I don't really think stablized German ststes would break apart again. :/ Imperium Guy 07:26, April 25, 2012 (UTC)