Talk:Saguenay War (1983: Doomsday)

Hi everyone. I was wondering what the community thinks about a war between Saguenay and Canada soon, probably around a week from now because that's when I'll be most available to work on it. Here's a partial timeline that I thought up in my head: Eventually (I'm not sure when) the Canadians will have an election and the Canada First Party will be voted in. They introduce mass conscription and significantly increase military production. Eventually a large invasion of Gaspe will bring it back into Canadian hands, but the Canadian army is worn out. Invasion of Saguenay proper is not feasible, and Canadians open up negotiations with Saguenay in about October or November.
 * 1) Sept 9: Saguenay Premier is assassinated by a member of the Canada First Party (not by the government, and by his (or her?) own volition. This person is captured by Saguenay officials and they learn he is from the Canada Remainder Provinces.
 * 2) Sept 10: An official declaration of war is sent by radio to St. John's.
 * 3) Sept 11: Saguenay troops mobilise and begin marching to the Gaspe peninsula.
 * 4) Sept 13: The first fighting begins on the Gaspe peninsula. The Canadian troops are unprepared as they have just recently learned that war was declared.
 * 5) Sept 16: The Gaspe peninsula falls to the invading army. Canadians are shocked that it was taken so easily. The Canadian government loses many supporters.
 * 6) Sept 24: The Canadians launch an attack on the Gaspe peninsula, which fails. From this time on, the war consists mostly of both sides using hit and run tactics against the other, the Canadians based in a fort somewhere in northwest New Brunswick.

This is all subject to change, of course. --DarthEinstein 14:52, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

seems a good idea I was thinking We could send LoN peacekeepers to the Zone and am LoN mandate to order seguerney to withdraw there forces fom cabadian soil--Owen1983 15:36, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea -- though Saguenay isn't recognised by LoN so they probably wouldn't comply. And any LoN peacekeepers wouldn't arrive immediately- I'm thinking sometime in early October. --DarthEinstein 16:41, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering that this war would effect both nations histories, I'm wondering if a seperate article covering the war is more appropriate, with a short summary on each nation article with a link to the war article. What do you think?  Mitro 17:18, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for a good war ;). Benkarnell 18:52, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Mitro: Good idea! --DarthEinstein 21:27, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, it is likely that Aroostook would enter the war on the side of Sagueney against Canada, due to the large Franco-Canadian minority, and political activism revolving around the question on annexation. However, this would be just as divisive as the War of 1812 for the United States. The Republic of Superior would send weapons and advisors to Sagueney, though not actual military units. This position is taken in order to possibly weaken Canada’s influence in the League will be marginalized, so as to allow their entry. In regards to Peacekeepers, only those from either the Celtic Union, Portugal, or the Nordic Union would be able to respond effectively, and with any speed. There is no way to ensure equality, without taking away equality. 23:10, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem with Aroostook is that it still is in the proposal stage. But assuming Aroostook does exist, I would think that they would not join right away, but would only join after a few weeks of debate. Their attacks would be concentrated on the Canadian portions of New Brunswick and also the province of Nova Scotia.--DarthEinstein 23:38, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * I take that back, the Republic of Superior would likely have sent Republican Guard previously to support the government of Sagueney, when in reality they are already fighting the Canadians. This is no small part due to the Republican Administration and Congress. They will likely take part in the war as an expeditionary force. However, if this were the case, Saguney would not be driven back, having been given the time to fortify, along with being equipped with “modern” weapons and training. In regards to Aroostook, they should already be canon. I thought I explained that the blast would moderately damage the area at worst, with fallout not being a major issue.Lahbas 00:48, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets not forget that there would also be non-French Canadians in Aroostook from New Brunswick (some NB territory is under Aroostook control). I think that would be enough to keep Aroostook out of the war or possibly tear the nation apart into sectional fighting.  Mitro 01:19, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey check it out I added a rough draft for the infobox we can use for the war. Mitro 02:21, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Lahbas: Why would Superior have modern weapons and training, and Canada wouldn't? Canada has had contact with the world at large for far longer. Canada, I think, outnumbers Saguenay. --DarthEinstein 02:38, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would assume that the Canadian Army would be rather small, with funds being spent in fields other than the military. I made a mistake about them not having modern weapons, but it could be that the obsolete weapons from one or two decades ago are still widely in use (due to much easier production). Sagueney, in the meantime, likely has a professional army, and devotes a large part of their budget toward the military. That, and both foreign and military aid from the Republic of Superior, and possibly from Aroostook, makes it at least equal in strength to Canada. Basically, it could be America’s version of the Russo-Japanese War. Lahbas 02:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the only one who has modern weapons at this point is Canada. As a member of the ruling council of the LoN and one of the founding members of the, I think they would have access to the best ANZC and SAC weapons that money could buy.  Meanwhile Superior and Saugenay are relatively small and isolated from world trade.  They won't have access to the markets necessary to support an advanced arms industry, at least one more advanced then Canada.  They may have a better trained military (Saugenay fearing Canadian annexation and Superior fighting to establish superiority around the Great Lakes) and that may make up for the tech advantage the Canadians will have.  Speaking of the ADC, I wounder if they would be involved in the fighting at all?  Mitro 03:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Republican Guard Companies never number lower than 800. Therefore, I would assume that there are 856 Personnel within the company at the start of hostilities. Additional forces may be sent by Superior, but it would likely be limited to Republican Guard, who are under the direct command of the President. As a result, there may be as many as five or six companies involved in the fighting by the time of the Canadian Counter-Offensive (Therefore, about 5,000). As for Aroostook, you are right on the mark; sectional differences between refugees would rip apart the confederation. However, the American and Franco-Canadian camps, who would tend to favor Sagueney (largely due to media campaigns similar as in the US during WWI), while the small Anglo-Canadian bloc favors Canada (Remember, a lot will have likely traveled back to Canada over the years, or at least into the newly established Nova Scotia). As a result, the government will likely be pressured into war much like the US was during the Spanish American War (Just without the Maine, ironically). A brief Civil War with Pro-Canadian areas would likely result, continued with an invasion of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Lahbas 02:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether the ethnic Americans would be fully behind Saugenay. I think they would be split as well and probably a slight majority closer to Canada. Honestly I think the division is deep enough that Aroostook will sit out the war, but "volunteers" for both side may cross the border to fight.  [EDIT] Also I'm not so sure about how many Anglo-Canadians will leave for Canada when French Canadians don't leave for Saugenay.  Some territory of Aroostook was formerly Canadian territory, and those Canadians could have lived there for generations.  Even then some of the refugees could have already established roots in Aroostook and it is really difficult to rip them out to go to Newfoundland or Prince Edward Island.  Many would already have an investment in Aroostook, maybe even some power.  Mitro 03:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

I think it might be feasible for Canada to retake Gaspe. First of all, Canada begins military production at the beginning of the war, and after the election in which the Canada First party comes to power, they start mass conscription and increase war production even more. Also a revolt in Quebec in support of the liberating army could distract the Saguenayans and Superiorians. And unlike with Saguenay and Superior, Canadian relations with Aroostook are fine, though individuals would obviously support one side or the other and go fight, as Mitro said. --DarthEinstein 04:02, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Why would there be a revolt in Quebec, when most of it is not even under the effective control of the government? In my mind, Franco-Canadians would volunteer to aid Sangueney rather than fight against them, and be used as a policing force against the Anglo-Canadian minority. The very battle-ground you are speaking of is where partisans are going to become a problem. Lahbas 04:10, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * A major point we have to make is if the Republic of Superior is going to send the regular army in or not. The Republican Guard is a definite, but the Armed Forces in general can only be forced into a combat zone with the authorization of Congress. There is a high chance it would be authorized, in which case 150,000-200,000 RSA soldiers enter Quebec. If not, the results are rather unpredictable, though a Canadian tactical victory is likely. Lahbas 04:30, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Language isn't everything. The people in Gaspe have grown up in Canada, and the Prime Minister himself is from Gaspe. And what I meant by a revolt in Quebec was a revolt in Gaspe. --DarthEinstein 04:42, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * A question I have is why invade gaspesie and not nouveau quebec since it is closer and thus easier to access by the saguenayan forces?--Marcpasquin 13:51, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Gaspesie is more populated and the main bulk of the army on the continent is there. On the northern borders there would be small skirmishes, but the main movement of the war is in Gaspesie. --DarthEinstein 15:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact that gaspesie is so heavily defended makes it all the more likely that saguenay would *not* attack it but would go after a better target. Also, nouveau-quebec has hydro-electricity dams which would make it a better target. --114.73.1.198 21:02, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * My reason for an attack on Gaspe is so that they could smash the large army in Gaspesie before they were ready. They would have to deal with the army eventually, so they wanted to do it when the enemies are unprepared. Though, you are correct - they probably wouldn't ignore Nouveau Quebec. I think that an army sent there would not conquer though, but merely pillage. They would want to destroy those dams you mentioned and cause general unrest, but the area is too large for an occupying army. --DarthEinstein 22:18, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Even with the war ending two months approx. after it started, I would still put my hypothetical money on the Saguenayans. The reasons are in the history books. The Americans were able to defeat the Brits after the Yanks adopted modern Guerrilla tactics. They were able to slaughter a large force of Brits and then sneak of into the woods to strike again. Transplant these highly effective tactics to this senario, and the Canadians don't have a chance. I don't want to seem unpatriotic, but the US military was better armed even in

And then there was the declaration of war from the CoG to Sicily, so there might be a war afterall. Mr.Xeight 02:05, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * The power of the American guerilla during the Revolution is a myth. The American Revolution was won primarily by set peice battles, specifically by the French.  If France had not supported the Americans during the war its likely that there would not be a USA.
 * As for this universe, if Saguenay has to resort to guerrila tactics, that means Canada has control over most of the country. No nation ever defends itself by using guerrial tactics, those tactics are only used after you lost the war and you are trying to drive out an occupying power.  Mitro 03:38, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

The Premier of Sagueney is supposed to be shot today. Just a heads up. In regards to guerilla tactics, that could easily be used by the Sagueyens against the Canadians in the Gaspe Peninsula. Even without popular support, Sagueney could operate a few supply bases outside of the peninsula, while the bulk of its forces take control of the country side, besieging the Canadians within the cities, and attacking them and their supply routes. The Republican Guard itself is trained in guerilla warfare, and may very well have passed this knowledge on. Lahbas 14:47, September 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll get to work on writing about the war soon, probably this afternoon. Guerilla-wise, once Saguenay has captured the Gaspe peninsula, taking the cities and driving Canada out, they can no longer use guerilla tactics as they become based in the cities, not in a moveable base. --DarthEinstein 16:32, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Despite my Canadian birth and upbringing, I wish that the Sanguenayans (is that the term?) win. Why? Because I like a good underdog and because of my political views (NDP) and my dislike of pretty much anyone who has recently lead Canada. Besides I don't think it is fair that Sanguenay has in my opinion allready proen itself to be a proper nation, and so the Canadian gov't has to learn the lesson that Sanguenay is here to stay the hard way. Wow! The elusive triple ryhme! Gold medal for me! [Mimics Crowd Cheering] --Yankovic270 19:15, September 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, no offense, but what you want doesn't have as much bearing on this as who is more likely to win. Canada, with modern technology, a larger population, and much more international support? Or Saguenay, a mostly unrecognised state which is mostly cut off from international trade and a smaller population, their only advantage being that of surprise.


 * That aside, I think that the result of the war will not be a victory for either, but rather a draw when the Canadians retake Gaspesie around November, both populations tired of war and other nations pressuring both to keep the peace. Perhaps the LoN will decide to recognise Saguenay in exchange for a cessation of hostilities too. --DarthEinstein 19:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * If the Canada First party enacts conscription and ramps up military production, I don't see Saguenay having much of a chance. Sure, they would give Canada a pretty big bloody nose at first, but I think if they are going to have much of a chance, they need international support. Especially with Canada being a member of the Atlantic Defence Community. With an official declaration of war against Canada, the ADC would either have to renege on its responsibilities, or support Canada. The best outcome I can see in this situation is Saguenay becoming an autonomous region within Canada. Unless Superior fully mobilizes, and then we have a much longer war on our hands with a much more cloudy outcome.--Oerwinde 08:06, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly! So if in October the Canada First Party is voted into office, and they start their uber-militaristic plans, but Superior also mobilises, then a large bloody phase of the war begins. Eventually, Canada takes control of Gaspe and meets hostility internationally in going into Saguenay territory. Having retaken their territory and with international pressure, they work out a peace treaty, probably granting Saguenay LoN recognition if not Canadian recognition. --DarthEinstein 11:57, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * With Saguenay technically being the agressor, and unrecognized internationally, and with Canada having the official claim over the territory, I don't see there being much international pressure to lay off Saguenay. This would be deemed an internal affair. I also realized that as Saguenay is unrecognized, their declaration of war may not bring in the ADC. But if Superior is going to go in, they would need a declaration of war against Canada, which would bring in the ADC. --Oerwinde 18:31, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have decided that the Republic of Superior is going to war with Canada. Troop commitment, due to its relatively isolated position, is likely going to be from 160,000-240,000. Lahbas 21:50, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * That is an AWFUL lot of troops, to mobilize, to support, or otherwise. For that matter, how is Superior funding all these "peacekeeping" wars they're involved in? They're doing so much nation building that I wonder how their own citizens are faring. Louisiannan 22:44, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The RSA (Republic of Superior Army) both has a massive reserve (About 400,000 men and women are able to be called to active duty through a confusing draft; they keep weapons and armor just in this case, after having previously served in the military, and remain on call until they are 35.) Currently, there are probably 140,000-200,000 active soldiers in all branches. In regards to peacekeeping, it is largely within its own soil, the only active one outside of its territory being the establishment of the Republic of Wisconsin. Since that experience, it has not actively pursued nation-building. In the case of war, however, the live hood of citizens goes down, similar to a change in lifestyle from something akin to the Roaring 20’s, to a WWII setting. Rations become a part of daily life in times of actual conflict, as the soldiers get the best of the materials. Also, in regards to equipment, the RSA is as modern as one can get in this day in age. It is not because they receive it by outside means, by the government had procured the manufacturing abilities through Aroostook by way of the League. Government companies such as Periapt (Vehicles), Riaston (Helicopters and Aircraft), and Levlon (Guns and Artillery) have designed and have been in the process of replacing the RSA’s older weaponry. By now, they are about 3/4ths of the way through. In regards to amount, I am leaning toward the former, with more probably being deployed if the ADC intervenes. Lahbas 23:28, September 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are my concerns, Lahbas -- 1) The land that's marked as being the territory of Superior is land that is fairly sparsely populated *here*, which makes me wonder if that land could even support 400,000 people, let alone a standing army of that size AND the wives, children and others who stay at home while this army's away. 2) I find 3.5 million people to be a huge nation -- how is Superior feeding its people? Where did all these people come from?   It's all too optimistic for this TL, in my opinion.  Louisiannan 13:56, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Louis and I have stated my own reasons for why I think Superior's population is too large. Furthermore a 160k-240k sized force that will need to be transported and supplied over a chaotic and damaged area at best.  Also why is Superior willing to commmit such a large force anyway?  As far as I can tell there relations with Canada and Saugenay have been nominal.  Also the vote to go to war wasn't exactly a shut out for the war hawks, there is a significant part of the population of Superior that does not want to go to war and yet the country is sending close to half their army to fight in a war for people they only have minimal contact with.  Mitro 14:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Michigan seems to have a pretty good agriculture, according to Wikipedia, so that would account for some of the population. But even though this region wasn't directly targeted, their agriculture would definitely take a blow from fallout. Numurous coastal cities on the Great Lakes were hit, so fishing would also suffur. --DarthEinstein 16:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

There also MIGHT be a trickling of Virginian volunteers going to fight for Sanguenay via Superior. But the official stance of Virginia is neutrality. Like the colonies that make up Canada in the US Civil War. They were neutral, but that doesn't mean that Canadians didn't fight for either side.--Yankovic270 00:17, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a little concerned about the number of people who are trying to get their creations to join the war in Canada. While some have valid claims to be involved (Superior, Aroostook, the ADC), others don't (Virginia, New Britain).  Considering the number of people wanting to contribute to TL-wide event, I think for the sake of plausibility that we apoint someone to be the final arbitrator on the war.  Since this was originally Darth's idea, I think its only fair that he has the final say on what happens in the war.  Mitro 14:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as ther Virginian government doesn't enter, I could be fine with small - very small - amounts of Virginian volunteers. The situation has a vague similarity to the civil war, but only very vague. --DarthEinstein 16:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly what Darth Einstein said. While the land is quite arable, and the fallout has begun to leave the area by around 1995 or so, though it never affected the established farms up in the Canadian territories. These colonies all around the Great Lakes region from the breadbasket of Superior. The fishing industry itself actually is quite prosperous. Though areas like Detroit and Chicago were hit, which woul result in radioactive material leaking into the Great Lakes, it is largely confined to within the coastel area, and maybe 10-20 miles north. Though this would have a deteremental effect on the fishing population, it is far out-paced by the lack of American consumers, and the presence of the Michigan fishing fleet, which would result in an explosion in animal populations within the lake. Kind of like what would happen to the Lobster and Cod populations off New England. As a result, the main source of food is within the Great Lakes themselves. You wonder why the area is so sparsely populated? It just is. There is no reason for it, other than people do not want to move there in our world. It is nice to be for a vacation, but it is not as easy as living in the suburbs or cities. As for the transportation of supplies and men to the conflict, what do you think they did in Burma during World War II? Or Papua New Guinea? It is difficult, but it is possible. In regards to the political and public perception of the war in Superior, a large portion of the population supports it, largely due to the bias of the National Broadcasting Service, which I have forgot to put into the main article. What they are divided on is whether the war is worth risking the international standing of the nation? In other words, will the war lead to their banishment on the international stage? Many hawks say that I will open new avenues of diplomacy for the nation, while doves believe that the war is a flaw in the Republic's foreign policy. Lahbas 00:40, September 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Darth also said "their agriculture would definitely take a blow from fallout" and I have to agree with him. Also while Michigan might have a good farmland as a whole, the Upper Peninsula is actually very difficult to farm at the best of times, and I have heard that first hand from an area farmer (though maybe he was just bitching about his own land).  Also you are leaving out the massive fallout that is effecting the entire northern hemisphere.  The fallout travelling with the weather will effect the Great Lakes and the UP as well.
 * Also to say that more people don't live in the UP just because its not as easy is a gross understatement. The farther north you go in the interior US the smaller the population density becomes.  It takes a high tech level and a strong national infrastructure to sustain a large population in some of these northern latitudes, and Superior is going to lack both of these come doomsday.
 * The analogy of WWII also does not apply here. The ations pushing troops across Burma and New Guenea were large world class empires that could draw upon a huge reserve of manpower and industry.  Superior is a small post-apoc state in the devestated North America.  It is not the British Empire or the United States or the Empire of Japan.
 * Also I wouldn't put that much faith in the NBS. Even Fox News couldn't get a super-majority of America behind the Iraq War, and I bet Superior will have their CNN or MSNBC as well.  Also the large number of nay votes you wrote on the news page is too large to be simply a "we worry about how the world will see us." Superior will have to deal with significant doemestic issues if it tries to put as many soldiers in the field as you suggest.  The 5000 RG force you originally added was more plausible then half the Superior army.
 * Back to the population issue, I'm sorry Lahbas but it just seems too optimistic for the UP and a few surounding counties to have such a population explosion after a nuclear war while every other nation on the continent suffers a drop. 7 million is to high, as is 3 million...but 1 million or 1.5, that I could live with even if I still think its a litle too high.  This TL is a dystopia, even if the world population might be up for discussion, we are still looking at a massive loss of life.  Don't get me wrong, Superior is an excellent article, but its actions in this war are too optimistic to be plauisble.  Mitro 02:59, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Darth! By the way, does anyone know what is the probable result of this war? Recognition or occupation of Sanguenay? Sanguenay annexing Gaspe? --Yankovic270 16:28, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we have an official name for the war? I want to create a main article for the war so we can have a central location for the info instead of having to search through several articles.  Mitro 17:09, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Sure we do! The Gaspe War. Its on the infobox. It describes the war well.--Yankovic270 23:39, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I wrote the infobox and added that name, but I did that for lack of a better name. Mitro 02:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, whoever made the infobox made up the name. The thing is, wars are usually named in hindsight, not while they're happening. Say we call it the Gaspe war now, but later it ends with Canada annexing Saguenay? Also, though the main action of the war is in Gaspe, there is definitely some fighting going on in the north too. Perhaps the "Canadian Civil War", as most of the world regards Saguenay as a rebellious part of Canada, as do the Canadians themselves. Of course the Saguenayans and Superiorians wouldn't like the name, they would most likely call it something like the "Anti-Canadian War", or somesuch. --DarthEinstein 23:48, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * History is written by the victors. I say for now, with Saguenay's status as part of Canada, and Superior coming on board, call it the Superior-Canadian War, and afterwards depending on the outcome it could be the Canadian Civil War, or the War of Saguenayan Independance.--Oerwinde 07:19, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

On a different note, I've been trying to find someone to be the new Canada First Party Prime Minister after the election. I decided to look amoung Canadian military officers since they seem like a militaristic sort of party. The best guy I got was Rick Hillier, but I can't figure out where he was on Doomsday. Hopefully Newfoundland, since that was his home, but he could also have been in Ontario or Germany (he was serving with Canadians in Germany). Even if he's in Ontario, I think he could get back to civilisation (ie Canada) as long as he's not in the middle of one of the nuked cities. --DarthEinstein 13:17, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

The CANZ and Canada both operate the same tank, the leopard 1, the same jet, the FA-18 and the same type of submarine, the british Oberon. How about A joint CANZ/Canadian production run for these, perhaps? Bombardier of Canada and Thale in Australia? and about the War, since superior got involved and that is a regonized state, i personally think the ADC would get involved.

Due to the size of the discussion I move it to its own article. I hope this article can act as a central location for all the facts of the war instead of having to read several different articles. Mitro 18:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)