Talk:Third Rome in Britannia

Props!
This is very interesting. I look forward to seeing the rest of the history take shape. Oerwinde 22:51, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely-minor nitpick, the monogram inside the eagle of the flag is of the Palaiologos Family, it's not really a universally-Roman symbol. Mr.Xeight 23:34, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

I understand your concern Mr.Xeight. Although I was going to explain that later in my timeline; I'll just go ahead and explain myself.

I had an idea for this timeline, that when the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire fell, Britannia (which had abandoned the name Western Roman Empire) offered asylum to the remaining members Palaiologos Dynasty. But in this timeline, the family died out just like in OTL. So later, Britannia adopted their coat of arms as a sign that the Empire of Britannia is the successor to both Roman Empires.

I hope that makes sense. I am completely new to this sight, and I'm still getting the hang of it. I read your profile, and I would like to let you know, I'm a big fan of Byzantine history as well. Intellectual Crusader 00:13, December 19, 2010 (UTC)Intellectual Crusader 19:14, December 18, 2010 (I don't know what UTC means!)

When you edit you can remove the 2nd explaination (as I just did) :POerwinde 00:24, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Oerwinde!!!! I really appreciate it!!! Intellectual Crusader 01:59, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely brilliant! Arstar 05:47, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

That's good to know-it's seems in the United States (and probably the West as a whole) knowledge of Greek history goes Period of the City-States lumped with 300, Roman conquest, 2010 economic-troubles. Even amongst Diaspora-Greeks their knowledge on Romania is spotty. Seems that alternate-historians and the clergy will have to carry on the light of Rome! Mr.Xeight 02:31, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

Language of Britannia
"Hey" to anyone following my alternate timeline. I have a concern that just recently dawned upon me. In OTL, the English language evolved from Old English which was spoken by the Anglo-Saxons. But in my alternate timeline, the Saxon invasions of Britannia are defeated by the "Western Romans" occupying Britannia. I was intending for English to still be a major language in my timeline, but that now seems very unlikely. I wrote in my timeline page, that the second Western Emperor in Britannia, Ambrosius Aurelianus, spared the Saxon women and children, and I'm going to explain that their culture (including their language) still became absorbed by the Romano-British culture. If I stick to this, will any of you buy it? I mean, does that seem like a logical explanation for the evolution of the English language?

I also thought maybe, I could make an alternate English language, one similar to OTL English, but with a lot more Latin influence; and maybe even Celtic influence. Intellectual Crusader 03:44, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think the modern British language would be a mix of celtic and latin. Depending on the history afterwards, As modern english was also heavily influenced by french after the Norman conquest.Oerwinde 05:04, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm just going to write that the Anglo-Saxons' culture was absorbed into the Roman culture along with the Celtic Britons' culture. Though I'll make their's less significant, I'll write later on that the greatest impact the Anglo-Saxons had on modern Britannian culture was the evolution of the English language. Which I will also put had heavy Latin and a little Celtic influence. I don't know if it's believable or not, but its my timeline, so I'm making it that way. I'll also explain later that the Norman invasion was defeated by the native Britannians, and they conquered Normandy in-turn. Intellectual Crusader 20:34, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well you already had them conquering Normandy, so thats no biggie, except I don't believe the natives were French at the time. This timeline pretty much ensures that the english language won't evolve into modern english, as it was the Norman Kings who influenced the language, and the Britannians conquering Normandy wouldn't bring French into common use. But as you said, its your timeline and you can do what you want. I don't see why you'd be so attached to them using modern English though. I'd think the timeline resulting in the British speaking something completely different would be more interesting.Oerwinde 00:18, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

@Oerwinde. Yeah I guess you have a point, I just thought it would be cool to still have an english speaking britain, but with a whole lot more Roman influence. Also about the Normans, I'm gonna write that later on that Normandy was lost to the Franks, then the Normans came and conquered it. Then they tried to invade Britannia under William The Conquer (just like in OTL), but he fails, and Britannia remains a Romano-British dominated culture. Also later on, I'll write that due to much intermarrying with the Celtic peoples, the "pure" Roman bloodline ceased to be, and know modern Britannians are a genetic mixture of Roman and Celtic origins, just like their culture. But I probably won't get to any of that for a while. Intellectual Crusader 18:05, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

You already have the Romano-Britains conquering Normandy and Brittany in 521. Which would ensure that Brittany remains heavily celtic rather than French dominated. Normandy would still be pretty celtic with some frankish and roman influences, and with the 2nd emperor being of celtic descent, you would very quickly have the empire dominated by celts, obviously educated in Roman style which would give it heavy roman flavour, but overall it would be a celtic empire. Which is pretty awesome. Having a celtic culture being a dominant power into later history is pretty sweet. Have a mixed military consisting of reformed Roman Legions, with a vanguard of Celtic berserkers.Oerwinde 18:23, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

@Oerwinde. Well really I wanted this to be a Roman-dominate culture at first. See after Juilus Nepos fled to Britannia, a lot of Romans from like Gaul, Italy, and even Iberia were immigrating to Britannia seeking to live under Roman civilization. But then they start inter-marrying with the Celts, and they gradually mix their cultures and bloodlines together. Really this isn't a Celtic Empire or a Roman dominated one. It's a mixture of both, combining their ways of war and government to create a hybrid people, both culturally and genetically. As for Normandy and Brittany being Celtic dominated, your sort of right, but the Franks take back those lands, and spread their own culture there until the Normans arrive and take it for themselves. Then we get to see William The Conqueror's EPIC FAIL to invade Britannia. But I do appreciate your input, keep rolling out suggestions. Also, I'm glad you noticed my reformed Legions; again combining both peoples together, Roman martial and discipline, along with Celtic strength and courage. Intellectual Crusader 19:22, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

The common folk would be celtic dominant, while the nobility would be Roman dominant. This would result in the Roman calendar being used, roman alphabet, etc. Roman nobility would desire some of the comforts of home resulting in the roman baths, roads, gardens, etc. (although a lot of the more notable roman achievements will have been abandoned by this time. The fall of the west will likely result in some asking why, leading them to reasons such as the roman economy's reliance on slaves and plunder, and the degeneration of the roman military from the highly disciplined legions to the pathetic levies of Rome at its fall, leading to a revival of some of the older roman traditions.) All this will lead to heavily roman influenced architecture and noble society, but the common folk will still be mostly celtic. And with marble not as accessible, you'd likely have more wood/stone amalgams in the architecture. After a couple hundred years the Nobility will have intermarried with some Celts, introducing some celtic traditions into noble society, while the commoners will have adopted some roman traditions. But the sheer number of Romans needing to immigrate in order to have an equal Roman/Celtic blend would be unrealistic. Oerwinde 20:45, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose your right, but I also thought that some of the common folk would be ethnically Roman as well. I didn't just want the nobles and Senators fleeing to Britannia. But I suppose I'l make most of the population pure-blooded Celts. But just imagining this alternate world, this Britannia in modern times, I was picturing like some people would be light-skinned with blonde or red hair. Obviously Celts. While others walking around would be olive-skinned with dark hair. The people of Roman/Romano-Celt descent. But I would still like to make their culture a hybrid of the two peoples. Intellectual Crusader 00:39, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

The thing with commoners is that they generally don't care who rules them as long as they're left alone. Many urban romans may have fled, but the farmers and such would have stayed. The urban Roman commoners likely would have settled near Londonium to be closer to the center of Roman culture on the island after that. Londonium and much of the surrounding countryside would likely have more roman descended people, while Wales, Scotland, northern England, Ireland and northern France would be mostly celtic. The center of trade and government being heavily roman would definitely contribuite to the romanization of southern England though, and likely the main port of Normandy would be heavily romanized as well from its connection with Londonium. Ireland, with the emperor importing roman settlers would likely have one or two heavily roman cities, but the rest would be mostly celtic, at least until raido/television is created. Then you would see the spread of a hybrid roman/celtic culture across the whole nation, as most media would come from Londonium. You also have to look at what normally happens with an invading force. You don't normally get an equal blend of cultures, you usually get some of the invaders' culture melding with the local, which is what you'd get here, though with the Roman advances you'd see a lot more Roman influences than you would normally.Oerwinde 01:04, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose your right. I guess, logically, this is the way for me to go. I did intend to have heavy centers for the Celtic populations. Like you said, Ireland, Scotland, maybe Wales....I'll just have to find a way to mold it all together. Plus I'll have to fit the Anglo-Saxons in there somewhere, because I wrote earlier that Emperor Aurelianus spared some of the Saxons and incorporated them into the Roman military. Though the percentage of Britannians of Anglo-Saxon descent will be much smaller than OTL England. Intellectual Crusader 02:53, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxons would likely settle in Anglia, resulting in the name, and it would likely be like Cornwall today. Its celtic culture is largely gone, but remembered, with a revival going on, the same could be in Anglia. Its Anglo-Saxon culture is largely gone, but remembered. Oerwinde 02:57, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Intellectual Crusader 17:26, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question: Does this new empire have/will have and foothold in OTL Low countrys and will they be able to keep it/exploit it? Will they create a colonial empire outside of the island in continents such as Africa, Oceania, and America? Will the empire react to the Mongol invasion and if so how? If you are saving some of this info up for later and dont want to spoil it then I can understand that. BlackSkyEmpire 02:21, January 2, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

@BlackSkyEmpire. Well not really the low countries, but it will hold the territories of modern-day Brittany and Normandy. I will write later on about the colonial expansion into the Americas, and I was hoping to add Australia and New Zealand into the Empire. I don't mind sharing this info but I can't think of where to go from there. I'm going to write soon about the failed Norman invasion of Britannia, then Britannia's participation during the Crusades, and then discovering and conquering the New World. But I'm a little stuck on what to do after that. Intellectual Crusader 15:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

The existence of a strong state in that region for so long will likely influence the region as a whole, meaning the formation of french and german states will be influenced by them. Meaning its very unlikely we'll end up with the Napoleonic wars, as France will likely not be in a position to take over Corsica, if its even still part of Genoa. Meaning the stage won't be set for WWI or WW2, so you'll have to come up with entirely new conflicts.Oerwinde 21:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

@Oerwinde. I suppose your right. I was planning on making a lot more colonial wars in the Americas, and maybe even in the Pacific regions. Intellectual Crusader 22:00, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Well think about it....Maybe the empire would participate on one side in the Hundred Years War and would result in a different outcome.....possibly some German sattelite states? Due to some problems with trade in the Mediterran the empire would support the newly formed Ottoman Empire in order for it to have more oppertunitys. The Black Death is more/ less worse in the empire then in OTL Great Britian. Will there be any divisions, possibly the existence of Scotland and Wales before they are reconqured by the empire or they stay independent. and the Mongol invasion is met by the Empire and begins to experience defeat by the well trained and fierce Roman soldiers and possibly pushed out of Europe. Maybe famous people in OTL or people who where close to being in that postion (maybe they where shot, died, so and so) are able to effect history in diffrent ways. Maybe the empire, Spain, and France would take steps to make sure that protestantism does not spread any more then it did in OTL. Maybe they discover the new world instead of Columbus. Maybe OTL Napoleon instead grows a love for the Empire istead of France and moves there while also making hius mark as a millitary genius in various wars resulting in either more territory, more allies, more sattelite states, or all of the above (maybe france would retake Normandy and Brittany and Napoleon re-retakes it in only a few weeks). These are just ideas anyways, but if you want to use them go ahead. BlackSkyEmpire 23:53, January 2, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

@BlackSkyEmpire. You have some very good ideas, and some of them I had already planned on using. Like for example, I wanted to use famous English people in OTL for my timeline; especially Richard the Lionheart. I might refer to him as Richardus, but I'm still debating that one. I definitely wanted to keep the Empire of Britannia Catholic, and have it as a major power against Protestant nations during the Counter-Reformation. I was also thinking of having Columbus still discover America, but he was being backed by Britannia, not Spain. And other explorers and navigators would explore for the Empire, like Amerigo Vespucci, Giovanni Da Verrazzano, etc. I was also hoping to write that for the most part Britannia wouldn't be as affected by the plague as in OTL, but thinking about now, it seems very unrealistic. As for the Mongols, I wasn't planning on Britannia facing the Mongol horde, but Britannia will take a greater part in the Crusades than OTL England. You have many good ideas my friend, keep them coming. Intellectual Crusader 19:13, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

Richard the Lionheart may have been born, but he wouldn't be part of the ruling class. He'd be Anglian, possibly a general who distinguishes himself during the crusades, but not likely emperor.Oerwinde 19:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

@Oerwinde. Well I wanted to make him a descendent of Roman Aristocracy, after all....this is alternate history. So this could be an entirely different person, who happens to be a military genius just like Richard I, and has the same name. Actually, maybe your right.......Crap! I'm running out of ideas for the future Emperors of Britannia! Intellectual Crusader 21:53, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

Just think of OTL leaders and rulers of Scotland, Wales, and England and use them. BlackSkyEmpire 22:21, January 3, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Actually.......I can use Richard I as an Emperor of Britannia. Because he wasn't Anglian, he was mostly a Frenchman, and he is known to have spoken French during his youth, but was ignorant in English. I can just simply substitute the French/Norman blood with Roman blood. And I'll say that he was born and raised in the province of Normandy. Intellectual Crusader 22:52, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

I was actually thinking he could be Norman after I posted my last post. And future Emperors were generally appointed by the senate on advice of the current emperor, so he could be a general who distinguishes himself in the crusades and is named successor to the emperor of the time. He would further tie the Normans to the empire as well, rather than just being a conquered people.Oerwinde 10:19, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Oerwinde. You have a good point. I was thinking of keeping the Normans in the Empire, but they would be segregated from the rest of the Celtic and Roman population until they've proven themselves to be "civilized" Britannians. Much like the surviving Anglo-Saxons centuries earlier. Intellectual Crusader 16:28, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

Citizenship
Arguably one of the worst things an emperor did was granting citizenship to all residents of the empire, the Normans having to prove themselves to the empire made me think of this. One of the ways Rome maintained a large volunteer army was to offer citizenship in return for a term of military service. This ensured that the army wasn't just filled with rabble, but of people who wanted a better life for themselves and their families. When Caracalla granted all residents citizenship, it began the degradation of the legions, forcing them to recruit many mercenaries, prisoners, and slaves. I think William the Failure should cause them to reinstate the old rules of citizenship. Requiring people to prove themselves before they can be considered citizens, or buy it, if they were rich.Oerwinde 18:43, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

More info on Roman Citizenship

That is a very good idea, and I think I'm going to use it. Making conquered people fight for the Empire in order to gain citizenship would be good for the quality and morale of troops. Maybe I could also divide people in the Empire of Britannia into Citizens and.......Residents? The residents or whatever I call them, will have to serve military service or some other government service in order to gain political rights within the Empire. Such as the right to vote, etc. That is a GREAT idea! I don't know if you've seen the movie Starship Troopers or read the original book, but gaining citizenship by doing military service is a central theme in the story. In the book, the government is a Roman style Republic governing over Earth. Anyways, I thank you again, you have been a great help to me and my alternate timeline. Intellectual Crusader 04:21, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think from what I gathered from the article above was that the military was composed of the Auxilia, and the Legion, the legion got paid more and commanded respect and such amongst the populace, while the Auxilia were the common grunts. Only citizens could be Legion, but serving a term of service in the Auxilia got you citizenship. You could also buy a citizenship but it cost a LOT. You could also be granted citizenship as a reward for exemplary service to the empire. This all sounds good to me. Oerwinde 08:28, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

This is all really good. I'm going to explain the re-implemation of Rome's old policies regarding citizenship in Britannia in the next update. But regarding the military, I didn't want to actually call the noncitizen soldiers Auxilia. I know that is what they were in ancient Rome, but we have to remember that Europe is advancing its military tactics and creating new fighting units that are adopted by other European countries. I wanted to keep the Legions, but combine Knights in there as well. But, I guess I could write that Britannian Auxilias were created centuries later to better organize the noncitizen fighters in the Empire, and that the Auxilia is basically the Light infantry of Britannia while the Legionaries are the Heavy infantry. I'll think about it and organize it all when I update, Thanks. Intellectual Crusader 18:23, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Hey everybody, sorry for keeping you waiting on updates. I've been sick lately, and I didn't even feel like getting up and walking around, let alone type on my computer. I've been shaking off the last of the sickness and, I though I'd update the article to the time of the Crusades. Don't worry I still want to add Richard the Lionheart as an Emperor of Britannia, and have him lead the Third Crusade, but I'll put that in tomorrow. Again, sorry for not updating the summary; if something like this happens again, I'll give you guys a warning so you won't think I abandoned the timeline or anything! Intellectual Crusader 01:43, January 12, 2011 (UTC)

Guys.......I had just updated my timeline to when Richard the Lionheart defeated Saladin and was about to capture Jerusalem, when I accidentally clicked Google Maps, one of my bookmarks. I didn't save a thing, and I lost it all! The summary remains unchanged for now. I'll just rewrite everything tomorrow after school, because I'm so mad with myself, I just don't feel like doing it tonight. Sorry, but like I said I'll rectify it tomorrow. See Ya. Intellectual Crusader 02:28, January 13, 2011 (UTC)