Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

Archives
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4

Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''
 * How in the world did Dakota get so big so fast?
 * They attacked and annexed Ute lands. Scandinator (talk) 23:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * I still think that this Ute conquest is unrealistic.even up to the 19th century, the Northern american tribes never subjugated each other to that extent.or, couple that with the fact that there are no traction animals on the area, so managing a empire becomes more difficult.or the fact that the Lakota have no centralized government.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:23, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * My genoan colony in east Cuba is missing. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 21:01, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 *  Isn't it is East Hispanola??Scandinator (talk) 23:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC) 
 * The outpost in East Hispaniola was a failure​, most people left and went to Cuba, so the big one is the cuban, the one in East Hispaniola still exists but its smaller than the map shows, and in the game is little more than a town with a few slave plantations. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 20:32, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alodia is a full-fledged part of the Caliphate now, not a vassal state. Fed (talk) 23:39, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Before you point this out today or tomorrow, i forgot it too for 1555.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie why didn't you use the map I uploaded for 1550 then? Why do you always do this and never use the maps which other people have uploaded and made? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:25, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because i always forget to check them.Ah, and your rendition of Akmola on the latest map fixing doesn't seem right, as according with this map, Akmola doesn't control its own capital.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay I expanded Akmola a bit more. Also did Vinland and Sumatra changes too. Note I just added the Vinland expansion event because the last time I did it, it seemed to be forgotten so I've just done it again, that's why I went back & added the mod event. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:34, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are the two light gray states in OTL Mexico? CourageousLife (talk) 20:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but they are independent states created by event.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where's Manchuria's New Harbin colony? The Manchurians should have a dot of territory in OTL Sonora based around the port of Guaymas. Yank 20:37, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know where this Guaymas was, so i put the colony on Baja California.Ah, and the 1000 sq km figure is to be divided among the colonies, not to be used simultanously by two colonies.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd still like it placed where it's supposed to be on the next map. Also there should be another Native Antillian country roughly in northern Indiana. Yank 05:03, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I ddn't add this country because i didn't know where was Indiana, as i'm not American.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:51, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You do know that both of those problems could be fixed by simply looking at a map? Yank 15:33, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither Nuovo Brescia (accidentally called Nuovo Padua a couple times) or Nuovo Firenze are shown on the map. One is on the East Coast of Lake Nicaragua the other is in West Papua (whereever in Papua, I don't care) Scandinator (talk) 09:20, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I added the one in West Papua but Lake Nicaragua is surrounded at all sides so I can't add that other colony of your's ~Von.
 * Did algorithm but was too lazy to calculate how long the war would take, but I had taken 37% at max. Enough time has elapsed in the game for me to annex it anyway. Please merge the Khosut Khanate with China. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 15:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed this ~Von.
 * I don't seem to find the (revamped) colony of New Alexandria; it's on eastern Sulawesi. Fed (talk) 05:20, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Its there, I've added some more expansion. You may need to zoom in a fair bit to see the colony. ~Von

1565 Map Issues


 * The Satomi clan annexed the Ōtomo clan back in 1561. The Ōtomo clan was located in Northern Kyushu. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2012年12月29日 06:42:24 (JST)
 * I've included a link to the wikipedia article on Guaymas here. now there should be no exucuse to get the location of my New Harbin colony wrong. Yank 19:53, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Colonization Order
Tada! Here is a list of nations and the year they can start colonizing away from this main continent. Australia and Oceanic islands are not open to colonies yet.


 * European nations (including Moscovy and Novgorod) can establish colonies in the Americas from the first date, then can start colonizing in the rest of Africa and Asia 30 years later
 * Middle Eastern nations + Ethiopia & India can establish colonies across the rest of Africa and Asia from the first date, then they can start colonizing the Americas 40 years later.
 * Asian nations can colonize the West Coast of America, New Guinea and the East Coast of Africa from their first date, the rest of the world is opened 40 years later.
 * Tribal nations can colonize other continents after naval tech reaches a suitable level.
 * No coastline? Bad luck. DEAL WITH IT!

Europe

 * Aragon 1505 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Austria 1535 (tiny navy, terrible position)
 * Bavaria
 * Brandenburg 1512 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Burgundy 1509 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Cyprus 1545 (tiny navy and a bad position to boot)
 * Denmark 1504 (large navy, ok position)
 * England 1502 (large navy, good position)
 * Florence 1510 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Georgia (about to get owned)
 * Granada 1507 (small navy, good position)
 * Milan 1520 (vassal navy, bad position)
 * Moscovy 1560 (recently established tiny coastline)
 * Naples 1508 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Novgorod 1525 (mid navy, terrible position)
 * Ottomans 1522 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Papal States 1525 (small navy, bad position)
 * Poland 1515 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Portugal 1499 (large navy, prime position)
 * Saxony
 * Scandinavia 1509 (rebuilding navy, good position)
 * Scotland 1506 (small navy, good position)
 * Switzerland
 * Venice 1503 (large navy, good position)

Middle East

 * Ag Qoyunlu 1522 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Ethiopia 1536 (small navy, good postion)
 * Mamluks 1511 (mid navy, good position)
 * Oman 1515 (mid navy, good position)
 * Vijayanagar 1532 (mid navy, ok position)

Asia

 * China 1527 (mid navy, ok position, retarded naval growth thanks to emperor's land focus)
 * Japan 1502 (large navy, prime position in Asia)
 * Korea 1514 (mid navy, ok postion)
 * Majapahit 1518 (large navy, ok position)
 * Manchuria 1533 (small navy, good position but new nation)
 * Siam 1528 (mid navy, bad position)

Other (must wait 30 years before reaching the rest of the globe)

 * Aztec
 * Inca 1530 (poor navy, can colonize Pacific areas)
 * Lakota
 * Maya 1560 (naval tech still terrible, can colonize Atlantic Areas)
 * Zulu 1550 (naval tech still terrible, can colonize Indian and Southern Atlantic Areas)

Discussion

 * And América? aztec, chiche itza, inca? we have navy too Zetsura (talk) 17:31, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * YTour navies are rowboats, sailboats with very small sail, and rowboats. No colonial power there.[[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * im not sure about aztec and mayas, but the incas have ships, and they go to polynesia, acording the spanish cronist in 1460 aprox, the inca Tupac Yupanqui make a trip with 10,000 man to polynesia, and the Kon tiki voyague make in 1960 (in not sure the year) is an expample the this is totally real.Zetsura (talk) 20:51, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And what about the Zulu?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:56, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria can colonize sooner than the Papal States, despite the fact that the States have been improving military on both sides of the peninsula, have been establishing territories through with the encouragement of the navy, while Austria has a tiny sliver of coastal land and would have to go around an entire peninsula to get to the Americas? Other than that, perhaps we should make a sort of algorithm so we have a bit more reliability, not just mod assumptions. ChrisL123 (talk) 18:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anybody have noticed how all complaints until now have started with the letter A?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria, America, Aragon. XD [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And Aragon? Isn't Aragon in a good position to colonize Africa as well as in an insanely perfect place to colonize America? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aragon would be in a good position, but Portugal is still the best by far. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, but where is Aragon on the list? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be somewhere around 1505 and 1510.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyways, I changed the Papal States and Austrians around, because the Austrian position is worse than the Ottomans really, and the Papal states would have a bietter military. On the subject of having an algorithm, that seems a bit hard to make, one of the major factors is location, and that is hard to create any algorithm for. This is making me think that the position of having the first sailor to arrive in the Americas from Europe should be Portugal. Not only are they currently the ones with the earliest possible date, but Collie has had the Portugese to quite a bit of exploring already, more than many other nations with early dates. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I could try to make an algorithm, with all the key factors needed. Just note that tallying the results would probably be like golf, where a lower score means they get to start earlier. Sounds confusing, but hopefully I'll make it work. Stay tuned! ChrisL123 (talk) 19:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, but then again, most of the time, i'm just repeating here what the Portuguese explorers actually did during this period of time, and when it come to explorers, Colombo presented his exploration project to Portugal twice.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:48, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * well he did but i think you should make that colombus is represented by an rng with all the nations in western europe, the one with the highest score and the best points in the system in here can get being the first in reaching americas, after all i think it should be like in OTL, just a random lucky guy and a random lucky nation like spain Sine dei gloriem (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Few European nations are powerful enough to get Columbus to come to them. Moreso there was nothing lucky or random about it in OTL. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 19:57, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * i say lucky because as far as every european the world was flat and as it seems to happen in otl colombus was rejected a few times, because no one would pay for something they didn't thought possible such as this travel, and he was lucky enough to have convinced the kings of spain of doing it as far as i know Sine dei gloriem (talk) 20:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the first time that Colombo presented his project to Portugal, João II refused it after consulting experts, who told him that the travel distance that Colombo had planned was too low.in the second time, in 1488, he refused because a way to India (arond Africa) had already been discovered.Then, even the Castillian experts also told their monarch, when Colombo presented his proposal there, that the distance planned was too low.However, to keep Colombo from taking his ideas elsewhere, and perhaps to keep their options open, the Catholic Monarchs gave him an annual allowance of 12,000 maravedis and in 1489 furnished him with a letter ordering all cities and towns under their domain to provide him food and lodging at no cost.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:07, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought China had a large navy. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * HAD is the crucial word. Thanks to your emperor's idea that naval exploration is a waste of time after Zheng He's voyage, the Chinese navy has suffered to the point where Japanese pirates could shut down most Chinese shipping.Scandinator (talk) 00:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about the Zulu. We have a coastline and have developed are Navy from the beginning. Enclavehunter (talk) 21:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Developing a navy from scratch=shitty tiny naval with no capacity even after 20 years. Your best chance is to reverse engineer a modern ship. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Muscovy gets a coastline, it can colonize, right? (hint, hint) The Royal Guns (talk) 22:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * look, you wont have to worry about not having colonies as long as the the Commonwealth of Great, Little, and White Russia(Commonwealth/Confederation of All the Russias)[hint-hint invasion of poland]-Lx (leave me a message) 23:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes you can but I would recommend via Poland, You would have to beat and take over all of Poland and Lithuania... Go through the Crimea if you can. (hinthint, nudgenudge) Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well Novgorod has control over most of the baltic via the hanseatic league, and has de-facto control over the Hanseatic Navy, and the navy will be built up continuously as long as there are people that sign up, we will build more ships...although we do need to broker an alliance with Danemark or Sweden to pass through the baltic with warships, but we have no problem passing through the baltic with explorers or traders, all we need to do is install Hanseatic trade posts along the Kattegat strait, and we have de facto free passage, so long as the league has interest, and resources of a new continent are a strong motivator and I believe that the hasea will help a novgorodian expidition leave the baltic.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You and what league? Burgundy has no wish to be in a trade league considering they have the largest port on the Atlantic, Friesland is Burgundian now, Denmark trades through Stockholm, Brandenburg through Venice, Poland through Venice. All you have is Prussia trading through you. Even Scotland and England with their Novgorodian trade posts still send most of their goods to Antwerp. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Stockholm is a member of the Hansa, the hansa has an actual navy that patrols the baltic sea, Burgundy has trade agreements with novgorod and is still part of the league, and In northern germany, it is not venice who holds influence(eh-hem how can you control trade that far away eh?) in northern germany, but the New Hansa controled by Novgorod and the Imperial Trade Guild of the HRE(I think that is what it is called), that was formed because of the apparent demise of the Hansa...an oportunity novgorod took to take control of it. I think it was Lurker that said that it was impossible for venice's influence to reach that far north if novgorod was keeping the league alive, not to mention i spent the last 10 years at least trying to undo the dammage you did aswell as reorgonize the Hansa-Lx (leave me a message) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I now have Manchuria, do we get the "good position" perk? Thanks. Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 12:22, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You didn't take enough of Manchuria to make a difference. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Surely Korea is in a better position than Manchuria, Manchuria has very few warm water ports... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:10, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm planning on eventually crossing the Bering Strait to colonize the sleeper property known as Alaska. I'll just have to expand my territory until I can get to that point. Yank 02:52, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * We Muscovians now have a coastline. Uncross us please. (We have one on the baltic as part of the Poland treaty, and have a treaty with Novgorod allowing us to put our ships through their ports (and vice versa)). The Royal Guns (talk) 20:16, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey I think as Granada I deserve to be on this list. I have a pretty good position and my navy may be F'ing terrible but I'm working on it. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 21:51, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could I also have my navy updated? I've been continually expanding my navy for at least 15 years. Airlinesguy (talk) 09:51, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you add Bengal??? Tipakay (talk) 15:11, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since Russia(novgorod) took over Prussia, do we not get a better position?-Lx (leave me a message) 13:22, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Muscovy has been working flat out on the nav since we got a coastline. Can we be upgraded?The Royal Guns (talk) 23:18, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * China's been exploring for some time and expanding its navy. Doing the algorithm for colonization, the numbers came out to be 1521 (lol June 1521). May I change the order to reflect this? Also, what about Hawaii? Since China's been exploring in that area, do they have to wait until 1521 or may they do that earlier? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 01:41, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Colonization Order Algorithm (Proposal)
As promised, I have written up an algorithm proposal that lists several key factors needed in order to successfully colonize. While it is mostly for American colonization, I have included some for south Asian nations. The algorithm works by tallying numbers that can be found through common sense, geographical details and player's turns. Unlike most algorithms, I'd assume players would want a lower score, because the algorithm determines the year by tallying up the results and adding 1500 to the total. I have included an example for Portugal and the Papal States.

Location
Add all that apply (e.g., Southern Europe and Central Mediterranean)
 * In Southern Europe (i.e., below the ): -3
 * In Eastern Asia: -2
 * In the western Mediterranean: -1
 * In Northern Europe (i.e., above the ): 0
 * In the center of the Mediterranean: +1
 * In Southern Asia: +2
 * In the eastern Mediterranean: +3
 * In Northern Africa: +4
 * In Western Asia: +5
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Touching the Pacific: *1.5

Travel

 * Traveling to Eastern Africa: +5
 * Traveling across the Indian Ocean: +8
 * Traveling across the Atlantic: +10
 * Traveling across the Pacific: +12
 * Traveling to Southern Africa: +15

Availability
Add all that apply
 * Ships must travel through a straight (e.g Gibraltar, Bosphorus): +5
 * Nations rely on a vassal for navy (e.g. Milan): +6
 * Ships must travel around a peninsula to colonize: +7
 * e.g., Novgorod around Scandinavia, Venice around Italy, Brandenburg around Denmark
 * Amount of coastland:
 * Miniscule coast (e.g. Austria) : +10
 * Little coast (e.g. Poland): +7
 * Nation's border halfly consists of a coast (e.g., Portugal, Papal States): +3
 * Majority coastal (e.g. England): -1

Naval establishment

 * Navy was created __ years ago:
 * 1-10: +40
 * 10-20: +30
 * 20-50: +15
 * 50-100: +5
 * 100-400: -3
 * More than 400 years: -4
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*x), where x is the number of turns of naval expansion
 * New to colonialism: +8
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Vassals/territories: (-0.5(x)), where x represents the number of vassals/territories
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(x)), where x represents the number of islands (on the map?)

Navy size

 * Tiny navy: +15
 * Small navy: +10
 * Medium navy: +5
 * Large navy: -3

Motive
Add all that apply:
 * For exploration: +2
 * Religious reasons: +3
 * For profit: +3
 * For land: +4

Other
Add all that apply
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2
 * In economic ruin: +8
 * Lack of funding due to wars: +5
 * Economically stable: -2

Examples
Note that these examples are for colonizing the Americas, as shown by +10.


 * Portugal: 1500-(3*1.5)+10+3-3+(-0.5*8)-1+(-0.25(9))-3+3-2 = 1496.25 or 1496
 * Aragon: 1498 to 1507
 * England: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.
 * Venice: 1500-3+1+10+5+7+3-3+(-0.5*10)+1+(-0.5*3)-3+3-1-2 = 1511.5 or 1512
 * Papal States: 1500-3+1+10+5+3+(-0.5*10)+(-0.5*3 territories)+1+10+3-1+5 = 1523.5 or 1524
 * Refer to this for a better detailed analysis.

Must say, it works out pretty well. But it's always opened to other factors. ChrisL123 (talk) 00:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
This needs some tweaking, We have Middle Eastern and Asian nations that need their own little algorithm for travel. Those numbers also have to separate for even the Europeans. Suggestion: BTW this is for reaching, NOT establishing colonies, you can establish a colony in an area after 40% of the number for the region in years has passed. e.g. For Europe: 4 years after reaching America, 10 years after crossing the Pacific. Rough numbers still. Scandinator (talk) 01:11, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're right, I never considered the other continents for that. Very nice. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

For Aragon, using this, I get -3.5 plus whatever the motive is, so earliest would be 1499.5 and latest would be 1501.5 for the Americas. Fascinating. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not quite, by my calculations it's 1500-3*1.5+3+10+6 (unless you want to the ships to go through Gibraltar) +3-4+(-0.5*9)+5-1-2 = 1511 for the Americas, plus the motive. Might be confusing, but if we get to accepting the algorithm, I could make a page for each nation for us to know the justification of the numbers. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do touching the Altantic and Pacific have *1.5 modifiers, if the lowest score is the best? Also, the straights and peninsulas should compound. For example, Moldova would have to go through the Bosporous, and through Gibraltar.
 * Also, I should really hope no one would get early than Portugal for Europe, with Norway and Castille's players being pretty much gone (I'm going to actually remove them from the list soon), there really isn't any serious competition. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is what I calculate for Aragon:


 * Location: (-3)+(-1)*1.5 = -4.5
 * Travel: Across the Atlantic: +10
 * Availability: Amount of coastland: +3 (Aragon's entire southern coast is longer in pixels than the border with France and Bearn, but the puny northern coast which borders Navarre (Navarre is NOT a vassal, it is a STATE of the Crown of Aragon, just like Aragon and formerly Naples and the such, which borders the Atlantic.)
 * Naval establishment: -3 (Navy was established in the late 12th Century, although comparable to the current Chichen Itzan navy then.)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*9) = -4.5
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3))= -1 (The islands off the coast.)
 * Navy size: Medium? +5 (Navy was pretty big, conquering half of the Mediterranean coastline countries, but I'll go with 5)
 * Motive: Depends. In most cases it would be 2 or the second three.
 * Other: Economically stable, -2; have a territory in the same continent; +1
 * The "won a war with the navy" one only counts in-game. ChrisL123 (talk)
 * Total: (Motive is 2, Navy size is 5) = 1506 (Motive is 2, Navy size is large) = 1498 (Motive is three, navy size is medium) = 1507 (Motive is 3, Navy size is large) = 1499

So at best, 1498, and at worst, 1507. Not bad. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 03:26, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoops, I did say military expansion, it should say naval expansion. And I counted 9 turns of naval expansion by Aragon, so (-0.5*9). I also fixed your calculations. Not bad indeed. ChrisL123 (talk) 03:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Those *1.5 are multiplying numbers that are negative, so it would increase their value negatively, which would benefit them. (e.g., southern Europe [-3] touching the Atlantic [*1.5] means [-2*1.5] = -4.5) As for Portugal, they should still be the winner. I've done Venice and Aragon, two big players that I could think of, and they're over, though England will still have to be calculated. ChrisL123 (talk) 02:52, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Note that I was referring to Portugal, assuming they don't get devestated by some war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

England would have...

England = 1500 + (0 x 1.5) + 10 - 1 - 4 - (1.5 x 11) - (0.25 x 3) - 3 + 3 - 1 + 2 - 2 =

1500 - 0 + 13 + 17 - 1 - 1 = 1528 I consider this algorithm brilliant, thoguh some things may be should be changed (something to make me reach America first, if possible ^^) in somethings, but I think is fair enough. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I expand my navy almost everyturn, I suppose it would be around 11 to 13 in the last 15 years... I calculate 11.
 * 2) I count Ireland, Man and the Dodecanesian Islands as colonized, that's 3.
 * 3) I expand for profit, to find a way to India.
 * 4) All my wars I have won with the navy, thoguh also every one that I've lost.
 * 5) I consider myself as economically stable.
 * 6) I round 16.5 (1.5 x 11) to 17.
 * 7) I round 0.75 (0.25 x 3) to 1.

You did a few things wrong. I'll show you:
 * In Northern Europe: 0
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Crossing Atlantic: +10
 * Majority coastal: -1
 * Naval origin: -4 (More than 400 years)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*11) = -5.5
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3)) = -0.75
 * Large navy: -3
 * For profit: +3
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2 (I think the English-Scottish incident counts as a loss?)
 * Economically stable: -2

-unsigned post by someone
 * Total: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.

The English-Scottish incident never turned into a full on war. However, I wouldn't know if the English navy should be counted as lasting for more than 400 years, they didn't have a full-on, modern navy until the reign of Henry VIII in OTL. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I think we might want to change the islands colonized thing to specify that it is islands a significant distance away from the mainland, like at least the north-south-length of Italy away, islands just off the coast shouldn't count. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:51, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, If you control an island a few km from your main nation, its not a colony. England for example can only claim that Greek isle. Scandinator (talk) 13:36, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also for the Venetian calculation, Venice is a coastal state, the entire nation is based off an archipelago off the Italian Peninsula. The navy has been around since the 9th century where it was used against Dalmatian pirates. We also have vassals and islands which a located far away from the main section of Venice.. Scandinator (talk) 13:49, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I still don't really see the need for this algorithm, the people who are going to be leading the list either way are going to be the same really. Also, I think that both this algorithm and the other list might be accelerating the process too much, this would have all of Europe colonizing the New World by 1540 or so, when historically only a handful of nations were able to colonize at all. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:55, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. look at Courland.they were pretty much as well-located as Novgorod, and only were able to colonize in the mid 17th century.and this having a large merchant fleet.and they failed eventually.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is if we forced players to wait months and months to expand they would not be happy. Scandinator (talk) 04:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Reworking the Algorithm (primarily for coalitions)
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Saamwiil brought up a really good point about the coalition algorithm currently putting a lot of very small states at an advantage compared to a single large one. Thus, I have come up with a new algorithm idea.

List of leader nations
Good? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:23, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Location: Works the same, (4 for close, 2 for far, etc.) in getting the numbers. Each leader has their own number. All the leader numbers are averaged (then rounded to the nearest whole number)
 * Tactical Advantage: The +5 for larger colonial empire goes to whatever side has the larger combined empire. The +1 for attacker's advantage remains. The +2 for high ground remains for whatever side has more cases of high ground
 * Strength: Remains the same
 * Military Development: Combined military development for each leader nation in the coalition for the past 15 years. 1 year is still +2
 * Expansion: Combined expansion for each leader nation over the last 15 years
 * Motive: Works the same
 * Chance: Works the same, whichever player nation declares war the first.
 * Nation Age: Average of the nation age bonuses rounded to the nearest whole number (so if one side has 2 normal nations (+0) and one old nation, they get 5/3 which is rounded to 2)
 * Population: The digits for the combined population of each side are used. The ratio bonus is the same as well.
 * Participation: Same
 * Recent Wars: Would use my proposal I have for all wars, -1 for each war you send military aid to in the last 15 years, non-compounding, -1 for the first year of a war as the leader, doubling each turn (so a 1 year war as leader gets -1, 2 years gets -2, 3 gets -4, etc.)

Sounds good. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:20, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Awesome!  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 03:29, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

How about we also add an economic development, and an infrastructure development, working the same as military, only 1 year= +1?

Also, about that compounding thing... won't that mean some major problems? A 6 year war would wipe out most nations... which it wouldn't OTL.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:30, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Economic development doesn't benefit the military though. People need to have a choice between building up their military and improving their economy. The problem is that currently we don't have any real in-game incentive for focusing on your economy instead of your military.

As for the compounding you are right, -64 for an 8 year war is bad, perhaps we should just have it be -1 for 1 year, -2 for 2 years, -3 for 3 years, then -3 for each additional year? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:37, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

The compounding thing is more for a modern war. Back in those days, wars were fought by tiny professional armies. This is the reason America and France won their revolutionary wars - more people to zerg rush with! Scandinator (talk) 00:21, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

But having long wars always weakened people. The Byzantines and Sassanids lost to the Muslims because they were fighting for so long. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:08, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

On the same note, wars in the earlier days lasted for decades. Wars in the modern era (the last two centuries) tend to last only a few years, and can be recovered from. Need I remind you about Japan's miraculous recover after WWII? It all depends on how long the war is.There needs to be strict punishments for wars that last over a decade or so.

Yank 02:21, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

True.. but if you're in the middle of a economic breakdown, you can't pay your soldiers, you can't afford to feed them, so you can't field an army. I like your idea with the compounding though.

Infrastructure, there should be one if you are attacked, because it's the single most important factor in getting troops to where they need to be to fight.

The Royal Guns (talk) 23:26, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

But I can't think of any incentive for people to build economy or infrastructure that would be different from military expansion. We need a way to differentiate between the three. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:39, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Massive Algorithmic changes
There has arisen a plausibility and fairness problem that I did not foresee. In the current war of the Caliphate and the Holy Roman Empire, the problem of people counting vassals and nations they are in union with as full nations, and adding their military development to the war, creates a problem.

I will state that the example given on this page, as to why the old coalition algorithm was bad, that convinced me to overhaul it was Saamwiil's; he brought up the good point that a league of San Marinos could overpower a China. And that is true; for every algorithm, each nation at least gets like 30-40 points at minimum, with several of these added together, China's +20 in population would be feeble, and the San Marinos would triumph. So I made the new algorithm, in which, I hoped, the problem would be solved. And it did help in regards to the population, and to nations giving aid, and chance, and many other aspects of the war. Yet there was one that I did not foresee.

Alas, for I realized that due to military buildup, the problem remained. The league of San Marinos, having built their military up for the past 15 years, would get a military buildup bonus in the hundreds. The same situation, which Saamwiil described, could occur. I had failed to prevent the implausibility and unfairness. I should have considered this when making the new algorithm for coalitions.

I thought of several solutions. I could make it so that military buildup has to be averaged, or something of that nature, but that would be unfair to players who spent many turns building up their militaries. I thought of making military buildup only be +1 instead of +2, like it was in the last game, but unfortunately that would only make it so that the League of San Marinos would require to double their numbers to overpower China.

And then a solution came to me, a radical solution, that could potentially alter the entire algorithm with huge consquences. We prevent the algorithm from simply becoming a game of adding numbers, of whoever can add and add the most 2's and 3's to their lists of allies and military buildups.

We keep the current score systems for military buildup, number of allies sending supplies or military aid, or expansion. However, for the actual number that goes into the total that will go into the results, we will not use the raw number of allies or military buildup. Instead, we will use the ratio between the two nations.

For example, let's say that China has, on its side of the algorithm, a combined ally score totalling to 22 and a combined military buildup totalling to 24. Meanwhile, the League of San Marinos combined total is 20 for allies and military buildup of 88. We would find the larger score divided by the smaller one, and round to the nearest whole number, and give that number to the side with the larger number. Zeroes, for the sake of this, will count as ones.

Allies: 22/20=1.1=1, so China would get +1 for having just barely more allies than the League.

Military Buildup:88/24=3.666...=4, so the San Marinos get +4 for building up their military more.

This type of system would have several benefits for the game: Also, on the subject on economic buildup and infrastructure: Economic buildup would function exactly like military buildup: +20 for each year involved in a war. However, players would still want to alternate between improving their military and their economy, because if a player only improved their military for 10 turns, and their economy for zero, and their opponent improved their military for 5 and their economy for 5, the player would only get +2 for their military buildup, while the opponent would get +5 for their economic buildup. Infrastructure would be a +1 for each turn, adding in total to the algorithm but only for defensive wars.
 * 1) It makes motive, location, chance, and expansion, currently dwarfed by the huge numbers generated by military buildup and number of allies, into play for the end result.
 * 2) It makes that population number the biggest number for most wars, which makes sense since population is a big factor.
 * 3) It allows us to differentiate between economic buildup and military buildup if we want to add economic buildup to the score.

To finalize a solution for the past wars problem: every war in the past 15 years that you or a vassal sends military aid to war, you get -1 for that war. Every war that you led in the past 15 years you get -1 per year. With the lower scoring algorithms (thanks to using ratios instead of enormous ally and military buildup numbers), these smaller penalties would work.

Would the players of this game be willing to implement such a drastic change? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:13, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'm in. Sounds all good to me. But can it be implemented after the Caliphate war? It's already confusing enough as it is. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 02:37, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course, this would be for future wars. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:06, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well what if China doesn't have any allies (or hardly any)? What do we do when we need to divide by zero? I assume you'd swap China & San Marino around as numerator & denominator, but still 20/1 = 20. Just because the league of San Marinos have more allies doesn't mean that they should be stronger than China. Now the bias towards large alliances is emphasized more. A more relevant comparison might be if the HRE decided to invade France. The HRE would still get a huge ally boost as they are all fragmented but as a single state still in terms of all the other factors similar to France. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:58, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * China, and all other nations, would get at least +4 for ally score, as it would have +4 for leading. So to get a score of 20, you would need to have allies totalling up to 80, which is usually unlikely. Even then, you getting an 20 point bonus for 80 ally points still makes the emphasis towards large alliances less than getting 80 points for that.


 * I really did not understand that last HRE and France sentance at all, I'm sorry. Can you try rewriting it? LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:06, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * The HRE & France example I was using instead of the league of San Marinos vs China example. The HRE would have a lot more allies/nation leaders in the event of a HRE-France war, and they'd get a lot more points than France because they are separate states. Even though a couple of HRE states vs France in terms of common sense would mean France should win but the algorithm would favour the HRE simply because they are separate states. As you say, this is made even worse because France is NPC so they have few allies. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:28, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is that problem exists in the current set up even worse. If we changed it to this, the problem would be less problematic than it is currently, though still existant. I can't think of any way to mitigate it without jacking up the population factor to be utterly powerful. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:08, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

I have noticed that this will make NPCs incredibly weak though. Perhaps we should give NPCs some sort of bonus to prevent them from being steamrolled? (but still being weaker than player nations). LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:06, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we could put a NPC bonus, but that should only apply to NPC nations which actually have a chance.

You used my idea =D

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:12, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I recommend we take out the Nation age thing, except for very new nations (0- 25), and very old nations (750+). Other than that, it shouldn't grant or take away points, because at that point it makes no difference.

Don't forget to add the changes to the rules page...

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:25, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't get the economy part... Also, I'm thinking: shouldn't we also cut down the amount of points given by allies. Ex. Military aid is now three, we should reduce it to two. Supplies is now 2, and it would be reduces to one. I believe this would be benificial because as said, they're not actually leading, it's just a few troops. Saamwiil, the Humble 19:33, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

i like the idea to remove nation age until it becomes a major factor(see Guns post) I also am for evening out the amount of points that NPC's would get so they don't just get steam rolled, as for the massive changes Lurk mentioned above, I agree that it is necasary, although I'm a little lost on how it works in relation to the current alogrithm, is the math any drastically different? And before we just all blindly vote on it, will it remove the nastyness that is the HRE-Caliphate war?Andr3w777 (talk) 20:57, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

The nation age thing is to encourage people to change their governments every so often, so that governments don't last forever.

Can you be more specific as to what you don't get about the economy?

If we did that, Saamwiil, we wouldn't be able to differentiate between vassals and major nations, and we wouldn't be able to show nations withdrawing from a side.

Does anyone have any ideas how to give the NPCs a slight advantage?

Andr3w777, I'll try to make a sample algorithm tomorrow or the next day.

It would not remove the HRE-Caliphate war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:08, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how working on the economy say for 5 and military on 5, vs economy for or military for 10. Saamwiil, the Humble 14:35, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

For NPCs, I guess you could give them an NPC boost, based on population (eg, +5 for 5 digits, +6 for 6 digits)

Still, as it is, it doesn't encoyurage the changing of government, because if they stay ancient they get minus 5, if they change they get minus 10.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:05, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwiil, if you work on the economy for five and military for five, and your opponent works on the military for 10 and economy for 0, He gets 10/5 for the military, so 2 points, while you get 5/1 for the economy, so 5 points. So you get 3 points more than if you just worked on one.

But after the -10 expires, you get -0, and then after that you get +5. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:58, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well, should we implement this for all future wars? (starting with the Indian war that just began)? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:19, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, there has been no large resistance to this change being enacted. The way I see it, this is the new algorithm. I would say the rules page could do with being updated with the new algorithm and the other new rule changes since the game's start. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:36, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

OK, this is now implemented, and will go into effect for all wars starting 1502 or later. The rules page should be updated, I will try to do it tomorrow if I can. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:26, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Bengal
Total: 66
 * Location: ((4+4)/2) = +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6 (Larger Colonial Empire & attackers advantage)
 * Strength: Bengal (L), Lanka (MV), Brunei (M), Deccan (L), Koli (M), Gujarat (M), Balochistan (M), Afghanistan (M), Yemen (M), Hadramaut (M), Shaybah (M), Oman (M), Persia (M), Tibet (M), Kashmir (MV), Nepal (MV), Bhutan (MV), the Shan Sultanate (MV), Ava (MV): 53 - 53/21 = (2.52) +3
 * Military Development: (7 years each - 14 + 14) = 28 - 28/6 = (4.6) +5
 * Economic Development: (0 years for Bengal and 7 years for Deccan - 0 + 14) = +14
 * Expansion: -2
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit Count: 113
 * UTC Time: 21:27 - 2*1*2*7 = 28
 * 113/28*pi= 12.678570352
 * Nation Age: (5 + 0): +5
 * Population: +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1 (Dimurats -1)

Hindustan
Total: 42
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Hindustan (L), Gajapati (MV), Muscovy (S), Poland (S), Novgorod (S), Baltica (SV), Moldova (SV), Ruthenia (SV), Luthuania (SV), Polish Prussia (SV), Ukraine (SV), Brandenburg (M): 22 - 0
 * Military Development: (3 years so score of 6) 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 9,428
 * UTC Time: 00:56 - 5*6 = 30
 * 9,428/30*pi= 987.297851268
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Following the 8 year long war, a Bengali-Caliphate victory was achieved.

((66/(42+66))*2)-1 = 0.22222222222 = 22.22%

Combined with the victory from the first Bengali-Hindustan war, a total of 34.22% has been achieved meaning that the Hindustani government is overthrown.

Hindustan and its vassals are therefore split between the Hashemite Caliphate and the Sultanate of Bengal.

Discussion
Just a quick rough algorithm for this war.

Well, as Hindustan seems to be shown as a union of 3 countries - I will use that in the algorithym. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:32, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to add in the Caliphate stuff tomorrow, I'm too busy tonight to be able to. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:34, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

If the Caliphate interferes in any way, I will forced to call upon my other allies. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:40, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

You are completely ignoring the technological constraints and geopolitics of the 1500s if you think its plausible for Russia and Europe to get involved in an Indian war. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:49, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

WAIT WHAT? THAT WAS NOT ME! I DID NOT POST THAT. The Royal Guns (talk) 15:15, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

K, guns! Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:54, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry, I thought someone was trying to pretend to be me. Sorry The Royal Guns (talk) 23:40, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

And you guys do not have the larger population. Hindustan easily would. Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:10, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * We discussed last war that the difference of populations is not as large as you put it to be, and since this is Bengal and the Deccan I would believe we could have the largest population. Fed (talk) 20:28, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Deccan has a lot of barren land, while Hindustan and its union country would infact have more as Hindustan's union country has the Yamuna flowing through it easily giving it a higher population than Deccan. So no, they would not have a larger population. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:45, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * What's more, you control part of the Deccan. The Royal Guns (talk) 23:40, November 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bengal has most of the Ganges running through it! Plus Deccan is a union country in the Caliphate. Our two countries have more people. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:30, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Three fleets from the Brandenburgian Phillippines have travelled to Hindustan to supply men and arms, on land only. M or MV? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 20:40, November 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * M mate. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:12, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Russia can sends part of their South atlantic(african) trade flotilla and can easily sends upplies through the khanates as they are in civil unrest and not very central.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:57, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

That's extremely implausible; Russia and Brademburg wouldn't care, as it would be "wolves killing each other", and since both supply spices through them and Syria is closer than Orissa they wouldn't be affected. You're just metagaming because you don't like the Caliph. Fed (talk) 21:16, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

How can that be metagaming? And no, for Brandenburg and Russia, if Hindustan wins then they will have an ally in the region so when they (Europeans) colonise they will have Hindustani backing. Plus, I did warn the Caliphate that if any of its member states interfered I would use my allies. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:45, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Russia can't possibly send any supplies through the Khanates. The Russians and Brandenburgians could send supplies to Hindustan, but military aid seems a bit much (maybe Brandenburg, but not Russia). LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:25, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Why? Russia has land not more than a few thousand km north of the Lands here. They are all fractured Khanates, who will be conquered over the next 15-20 years. A massive shipment of troops and weaponry would OBVIOUSLY be allowed through.

And in any case, Both Brandenburg and Muscovy have worked on their navies for 50 +years, AND we now control the Caspian, so via the Tigris-Euphrates we can get to the Persian Gulf, and once we're there... The Royal Guns (talk) 23:40, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

No the Caliphate controls the Caspian, we wouldn't let you through. And the Khanate territory is lawless, your army would be destroyed by bandits.

Plus Bengal-Caliphate has a large population than Hindustan. Also Hindustan has not worked on their economy in the past 15 years at all, so you get no points for it.

Furthermore it is meta-gaming because prior to this war, Russia and Brandenburg had no contact with Hindustan and have no influence in the region. Those two countries are trying to join solely because the players told each other about it, so since your nations had no relations prior to the war it is meta-gaming as your only getting involved via out-of-game activity. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:16, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Au contraire, my finely feathered British friend. Brandenburg has been to Hindustan and Bengal nearly ten times in the past, each time pushing for a trade right and/or an alliance. Only recently was the offer accepted by Hindustan, eliminating Bengal's chance for getting aid. Also, I have missed no more than seven turns throughout the whole games, and each had a little piece dedicated to building up the navy, since the army was already massive. On top of that the Teutonic Knights are under my command and they do have a navy. And I have a fleet in Japan for exploration of East Asia and three in the Phillippines, all can easily be sent off. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 01:17, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you noticed my plumage but you still ignore European countries don't get involved in Indian wars with so little on offer to themselves. The amount of money it costs you to send these exploration fleets is astronomically high compared to the benefits you'll get. Especially considering they'll be going up against the massive Caliphate Indian Ocean navy, so would loose almost instantly. It makes no economic sense. But I'm glad you agree Russia has no business there. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:29, November 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Who said the fleets were fighting? Just men and supplies to die in Indian hell. Most Kappelists and some Catholics. They're coming from the Phillippines anywho. And I get the Bengal Phillippines and some of Bengal's ports if we win by enough. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:02, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for not being here this weekend. Now: in what time Hindustan became a confederation or something, if in the previous war was one country with a vassal, and I have not seen his post in which part becomes a confederation to present so many leaders.... he lost the war, and a part of its territory, and was not playing for several days, so do not have much developed, then the difference in the score should be higher. Now that Brandenburg and Russia want to get into conflict is very unrealistic, and ask a MOD to rule. Russia must pass through nations and deserts and mountains, far from their territory to send troops or resources, meaning through kingdoms that he has no diplomatic relationship like the sultanate of Delhi (islamic country!!), while Brandenburg that only 10 years ago has left Europe and colonized a piece of Antillia, and it makes war on a foreign kingdom iroquis, decided to send a journey to faraway India with army and supplies? Impossible in every way to the year 1525 and also his imaginary colony in philipines against the rules..... so just let it end like this war must end, and stop doing post incredibly impossible. Tipakay (talk) 14:43, November 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Brandenburg is also Aragon. That answers all your questions. I don't control it, yes, but the Elector does, and the Elector I am and the Elector I shall be. And I will add that my nation is far more powerful than Bengal's. If it were plausible, I would go all out in a one-on-one war on you, no restraints to prove my point. But it's not plausible. There is no "imaginary colony" in the Phillippines, just a colony. My fleets take the Kappelists from there to India to fight, and the rest of the fleet goes to your Phillippine colony, kills anyone who tries to fight, pulls down your flag, and raises ours. Simple. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:02, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Bengal doesn't have any economic development score Tipakay as Bengal hasn't devoted any turns to economic development in the past 15 years. However I have just noticed by mistake that I've been counting each year of economic / military development as only being +1 when its actually +2 to the score. The algorithm has been updated and my mistake is now gone. So unless anyone else is sending aid, this war is over. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:49, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

A) Russia is sending supplies, at the very least- LURK said that was possible.

B) Russia Controls the North Caspian, and has, again, been working on the navy for 50 years.

C) 50,000 men versus a few thousand ragged bandits? Yeah, big challenge.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:22, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Your point B is moot, you only just got a Caspian sea port and you can hardly just carry your " 50 year old navy" over land to it from the Baltic. Plus the rest of the Caspian is controlled by the Caliphate. You think we'll just let you past? And these bandits are same ones which a few decades ago had an empire stretching to the Black Sea and you're on their turf: they'd tear you apart via constant raids and attacks. Plus after Russia declares that its going to take over that entire region in the next 20 years (which ain't gonna happen either) the main armies of the region would attack you too, not just bandits. You would not get through at all. This is the 1500s not the 1800s. Not to even mention the Caliphate ships in the Indian Ocean hopelessly outnumber you and wouldn't let you even reach India. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:15, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

All the states in Europe without seacoasts can't send supplies, they are too far away. They need coasts to do so. The Caspian Sea doesn't count, its a giant lake surrounded by the Caliphate and Muslim Khanates. The Tigris and Euphrates are nowhere near any Russian or other European nation or the Caspian sea, Guns that is simply not geographically true.

The Khanate armies would not let Russian forces go through their lands. You'd have to fight them in a series of wars first. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:21, November 19, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing that the Sultanate of Bengal was founded in 1352, it is an old nation so the Bengal-Caliphate alliance gets another +5. This means that our Muslim coalition get 22.22% of Hindustani territory, which combined with the 12% won by Bengal in the last war, we get 34.22% which is enough to overthrow the Hindustani government. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:12, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Too bad the two wars were seperated by a good twenty years, so Iam pretty sure even after your take a godamn fifth of my country, I'll still be around. We will wait, 50 years, or a 100, but when we re-emerge, things are going to be a heck of a lot different. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:00, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

So, we go the long way around.

Fine, then, overthrow them. But don't be an ass- let Imp stay as a player for that geographic area, even if it is withnthe Caliphate.

And why won't it happen over the next 20 (fine, 30) years? The Royal Guns (talk) 00:23, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Because I think your over-estimating your own war capabilities and under-estimating the capabilities of those Khanates.

As for Imp, its entirely up to him. We have not discussed what territory change overs are going to happen yet, but I'm welcome to let him have a province or two in the Caliphate assuming he doesn't try to sabotage us from the inside. But I thought he might want to use this opportunity to take over another nation instead. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:34, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Are we talking about the same person here? The Royal Guns (talk) 20:19, November 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * We should be, my first paragraph was referencing to you/Russia and my second paragraph was about Imperium Guy (Imp). Who are you on about? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:03, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Umm- no. I was making a reference to Imp and India. Which he seems to play quite a bit. Also, not the ENITRE reason, just a portion- that controlled by Russia and little bit more. ? The Royal Guns (talk) 20:27, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I declare this war to be over. The Hindustani government is overthrown and becomes subordinate to Bengal and the Caliphate. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:03, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

France?
By picking France, which parts of OTL France do I get? Stewdio333 (talk) 17:42, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well, there are two claimants to the throne of France.(Auvergne and Bourbon) it is up to you to decide which faction you want to play.Auvergne was the ruling house until the 16th century, but the Bourbon faction usurped the throne, and there's been a civil war, which cooled down sopme time ago, mostly because those factions were too exhausted to keep fighting then.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:55, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Breif Wikibreak
I'll be off until Sunday - Mayans. Keep expanding. CourageousLife (talk) 20:54, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Problems
There's a certain problem with Catholocism, and that's that everyone supports it. To date, almost no major Catholic state has even attempted tolerance, forget conversion- and the one that did, Saxony, then was forced to swiftly backpedal and destroy the Kappelist population due to the HRE threatening to send in the troops. Bavaria plans to become Kappelist, but seriously, some other states need to do this too. Otherwise, the reformation will be screwed off. Remember that the Reformation was one of the biggest keys to the eventual Imperial age of Europe.

Also, forget ye not that the majority of the population will be Kappelist, if Kappel protested the same things as Luther. The common people also think the Church is getting corrupt and extravagant.

The Royal Guns (talk) 21:06, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well, as a Catholic nation, Portugal at least tried to not to go to the extremes that Brandenburg went to.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:30, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Bavarian War (1529 - ????)
This war is retconned, it may occur for real if no reasonable agreements can be met.

=== Holy Roman Empire (led by Brandenburg) ===
 * Location:? 4 (surrounding Bavaria on all sides)
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Luxembourg (MV), Saxony (M?), Austria (M), Tyrolia (MV), Salzburg (MV), Venice (M?), Serbia (M?), Naples (M?), Savoy (M?), Bosnia-Montengro (M), Florence (M), Milan (M?), Swiss Confederacy (M?): Currently 40/25=,1.6~2 unless some people decide to go from M to L or S, and if others join the war
 * Military Development: Brandenburg (+28),
 * Economy: Brandenburg (+1),
 * Infrastructure: Brandenburg (+1),
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:


 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:

Total:? 58 flat, excluding possibilities and chance.
 * Nation Age: +5 (Brandenburg),
 * Population: +9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3 (It's three per war, right?)

Bavaria

 * Location 5
 * Tactical Strength 2
 * Strength: Bavaria Munchen(L), Bavaria Straubing(L), Thuringia(MS), Milan?, Genoa?, England? Calais? Naples? (25?)
 * Military Development: Bavaria (+23), Thurngia(+13?)
 * Economy: Bavaria +1
 * Infrastructure: +1
 * Expansion
 * Motive: 10 Survival
 * Chance:

Total?
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age +5
 * Population +10(historically more people than Brandenburg)
 * Recent Wars: no recent wars

Discussion:
I'm not good at this stuff so somebody please go over it

Also isnt technically wrong to put up people to fight unless they said they would? Alot of those people up top are my allies, so............ anyway just to let yall know it is complete hogwash for the HRE to declare war over a differnet branch of Christianity in the midst of the DME, never happened in OTL. I am doing what the mods wanted, having a KAppelist state, the reformation was supposed to win you know.

~ Andrew

Well, you did leave the HRE, which was unrequited for. Secession means war, plain and simple. Also, I think the ATL Brandenburg has more people than Bavaria, taking into account Courland and the such. I'm not even counting the colonies, and I don't think your population has 8 digits. Anywho, the HRE obviously has more peopl that you anyhow. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 17:20, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tis true thought you were doing individual states, anyway Munich is the OTL 3rd largest city, Bavaria today has about 12,595,891by contrast Brandenburg in OTL only has 2,495,635 The city of Berlin is independent but if you add it will only be 3,501,872 so that is about 6 mill or so, clearly Bavaria is more populated, even in this time.Anywho, if I lose will I be forced out of PM II? I do like this game.Andr3w777 (talk) 17:29, November 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, you can play as either a vassal state of Brandenburg or another country, if we win by enough, cause it looks like I'm the only leader at present. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 17:44, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

forgot to add Baden Wurttemburg into population in OTL around 10,786,227 here is the website http://www.citypopulation.de/Deutschland.html

These are present day numbers. The HRE hardly has over 20 million right now, if I'm correct. I'm sure you don't account for well over 50% of that. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 17:44, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;"> Just for the record, Saxony explicitly stated that it did not invade Bavaria. Only if I am actually obliged to as a member of the HRE (if so, please give me the reference), will Saxony, grudgingly oblige. Callumthered (talk) 17:50, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;"> See the game page, right below Bavaria's post. The Acting Imperial Government has declared war on the secessionist state of Bavaria. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 17:53, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;"> I'm not sure I want to be anyone's vassal, would that be temp? if not then I'm out. maybe I'll play as a tribe in America or Hungary, or something. I admit I'm a little pissed off, but what can you do? go with the flow.

<p style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;"> true very true, my point was I would probably still have a good number of people, I'm currently trying to find numbers for the 1500's, pretty difficult.

<p style="margin-top:1em;margin-bottom:1em;"> YOu did the military, economic, and infrastructure development wrong.--AP

Implausible Tolerance
As I had feared, players' dislike of getting into wars with each other has produced several examples of implausible religious toleration. I know that you all don't want it to happen, but people and rulers and religious officials are downright religious bigots at this time, and if the Catholic Church doesn't try to crush Kappelism violently, it means that the current Pope is insane. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:25, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) No Pope during this time would say anything like "tolerate those of different religions".? He would be calling for Catholic rulers to burn Protestants at the stake and to invade and subjugate Protestant nations.
 * 2) No nation is going to establish religious freedom, that idea is alien.? The idea of a secular state would be downright laughable.? ? ? A bare tolerance of minorities is the maximum, and that would only occur when it became brutally apparent that they would not be able to force them to conform.
 * 3) The current emperor of the HRE appears to be a do-nothing, who is barely lifting a finger to stop half his nations from going Protestant.

Meh, as soon as elections finish in the HRE, the Acting Emperor, who will become the Emperor, will go super tight on everyone, die, and then the HRE will be split apart as the states split apart based on religious sect around the same time the Caliphate collapses, allowing everyone to pick up the pieces. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:31, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * The same time the Caliphate collapses 'ay? How convenient... ~Von.

Also, I would start a Counter-Reformation if I could, but I can't. If I tried, I would be accused of more blasphemy than the Kappelists. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:38, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

The Pope never once said anything along the lines of being "tolerant to other religions." He said that Jesus was tolerant and never once waged war on the non-believers, unlike the constant Crusaders. You can continue the discussion under the Papal States' post. ChrisL123 (talk) 00:51, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think we might need to do a mod event to force this reformation to happen... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:10, November 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I think we might need to do a mod event to force the implausible Caliphate into plausibly collapsing. Btw, who said you could control all of India? You only won 22% anyways. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:49, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Caliphate is four-fold more plausible than the HRE in its current state, turning into a federation with one treaty and there is no civil war because of it, while the Caliphate has had numerous wars, mod events and marriages. On topic though, there should be some mod-events. I think the simple post of just keeping the Kappelist down isn't really enough considering how successful Luther was.? Saamwiil, the Humble 02:58, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Furthermore we already have the plan all lined out, your plan to collapse though during the reformation though seemingly isn't happening. Plus if you bother to read the results section and my posts in the discussion, you'll clearly see that it is the combined results with the last war against Hindustan. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:00, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that even allowed? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 03:12, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it has been done before if you noticed. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:36, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is? It has? That kind of sounds ridiculous. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 03:40, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Even though I agree with all of the above, I do cite the Mughals as a counter-example. ? Saamwiil, the Humble 02:42, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

The idiot who controlled the Mughals had his Emperor be restored to life something like three times because he was too lazy to either think up a new name or call him "the third". Not only that but he had ridiculously implausible posts fillled with rubbish like ghosts and other astronomically implausible things. It was only though the efforts of the saner users that he didn't devolve PMI into a ASB game like what the States of America games inevitably turn into. Only Eldwolf did more damage to Principia Moderni. Yank 02:55, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Eldwolf's stuff was all rolled back instantly, so he really didn't damage it at all.? ? ? LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:47, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

And I object to the States of America Slur. The first few were, apparently, impluasible, but the 5th was pretty good.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:32, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Muscovy

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Muscovy (L), Novgorod (L?), Poland (M), Baltica, (MV), Rostov (MV), Moldova (MV), Sibir (MV), Pskov (MV), Ruthenia (MV), Ukraine (MV), Lithuania (MV), Prussia (MV), Ryazan (MV): 31/4=7.75, so 8


 * Military Development: Muscovy (10), Novgorod (20)= 30/1= 30
 * Economy: Muscovy (20), Novgorod (20)= 40/1= 40
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6

Total:124
 * Edit Count: 2566
 * UTC Time: 20: 29
 * 43.663203
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Khoshut

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Khoshut (L):4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 4
 * Chance: 3

Total: 34
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * See above
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Russia can take ((147/(147+34))*2)-1= 62.43% of the Khnate of Khoshut, annexing it, dividing it down the middle (and yes, I want this shown on the map). The war wil last 2 years, annexing 46.8225% of the Khanate. And the rest of it, too.

Discussion
No the Khanate of Khoshut is right next to China, there is no way you can attack Khoshut. However the Khanate controlling the Eastern Caspian is the Khanate of Mangystau. Be warned, war with Mangystau means a war with the Caliphate as Mangystau are an ally of the Caliphate and we have been since 1520. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:44, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

You can't reach Khosut. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:04, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

He states pretty clear in the title of the section, the one controling the East Caspian, hinting that he has some ignorance to the names of the khanates. -Lx (leave me a message) 03:19, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Suppose I'm not invading Mangystau either,. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:17, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

Turns
OK, I think that the current turns set up needs some clarification and simplification. I was thinking of replacing the current section with this:

The following actions can only be performed once per turn: Only main player nations can perform these actions, vassals and NPCs in dynastic union cannot. If someone performs multiple actions on this list in the same year, only one of the events will be counted. Wars will supersede expansion which will supersede military, economic, or infrastructure build-up. Of the last three, whichever improvement/buildup is performed first in the post will be counted for the algorithm
 * Economic Improvement
 * Infrastructure Improvement
 * Military Build-up
 * Non-colonial expansion
 * Fighting in a war

This is to prevent people from maxing out their algorithm scores using vassals and dynastic union. It also would prevent people from doing 2-3 of these things in the same year and having unreasonably high algorithms. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:45, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

So only 1 of those actions in a turn? Okay duly noted. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:43, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

So I can expand a colony and develop my economy/military at the same time... but I can't develop my economy/military and my infrastructure? Then what's the point of infrastructure? No one will use it because it only gives a plus 1 per turn. maybe you should make it plus three, but only defensive.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:19, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

No then infrastructure would be over-powered, infrastructure already has the advantage of not being divided by the opponents score. Plus those were the rules anyway, Lurk is just clarifying & simplifying the current rules so players can understand these rules more easily as a few people seem ignorant to these rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:23, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

I thought that the original proposal for infrastructure was that you could develop infrastructure and Economy/military in one turn, thus accruing +3 rather than +2. Maybe we should go to that? Becuase frankly, not being divided is that much of an advantage. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:27, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

We need something to prevent people from building their infrastucture every turn. Perhaps have infrastructure be +2 as well, but not divided? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:19, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Right, but if you do that (buildup infrastructure every turn, along with military/economy) then it is useless if you want to attack, and will accrue only a small advantage anyway. Defender's advantage? Spreads to more than just a 5 vs 4 on the location thing.

By the way, about location, let's say I have a large empire, with my capital at one end. And opponent, with a capital closer to the far end of my territory attacks it. Does he get higher in location, even though it is my nation (not a clony or vassal, the main nation)?

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:07, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, Paraguayan War in 1864.Our capital was still on Rio de Janeiro, and they attacked at OTL Mato Grosso, and it took six months for the news to arrive to Rio.Well, this doesn't look like it has anything to do with your question, but it has. the example that i just gave is the best.your adversary gets a higher score in location, as his capital is almost on the battlefield, and thus, he will know what is going on faster.you, with a spread-out nation, with the capital far away from the battlefield, the news will take longer to arrive, and you will inevitably react more slowly.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:06, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with allowing you to do both, Guns, is then everyone would update infrastructure every single turn, so it would become pointless since everyone would get +15 for every war unless they missed a turn or didn't put infrastructure for some reason. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:59, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yes... ok, maybe if you update infrastructure then you cannot expand, colonially or not, because the money for expansion goes into the infrastructure. The Royal Guns (talk) 00:24, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Colonies expand constantly because the colonists themselves settle new areas, the main government doesn't spend any money. If they spend money on infrastructure, it will either come out of the economy or military budget. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:13, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

I for one think the current rules are okay, if you use a mix of them then its good and you can fight off your opponent on multiple fields. I'd maybe up infrastructure to 1.5 so every second turn of updating infrastructure you get an extra point. We would not round up infrastructure scores in my plan BTW e.g. 3 years of updating infrastructure gives you 3 points plus 1 bonus point, whereas 4 years gives you 4 points and 2 bonus points. Thus meaning the maximum score you could get for infrastructure would be 15 points plus 7 bonus points (+22 points in total).

Also wouldn't building up your infrastructure help you expand your nation? Perhaps you are allowed to expand and build up infrastructure too. Perhaps using a similar system to stop being from negating their expansion penalty with the infrastructure points. So again every 2 years of infrastructure expansion in a row you get a year's worth of expansion. So basically you can use your infrastructure bonus points to either expand or build up your defending nation's algorithm score. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:59, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain the infrastructure idea again? What you you mean by use the infrastructure points to expand? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:52, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Okay good infrastructure makes it easier for a country to expand right? E.g. railroads and telegraphs in the wild west USA in 1800s. That the base of my idea.

My idea is that you get +1 for improving infrastructure in a year as normal, and if you do it two years in a row then you get a bonus, this can be used to build up your infrastructure score with a +1 bonus or allow you to expand while you build up infrastructure at same time.

So build up your infrastructure for two years in a row and you get +2 infrastructure score for sure, your infrastructure bonus can then be spent on an additional +1 to your infrastructure score (so +3 for two years in a row of infrastructure expansion) or the bonus can be spent on expanding (so +2 infrastructure and one year's worth of expansion, -1 score).

Therefore you can build up infrastructure and expand at the same time, but expansion is limited to only 1 of the two years (or 1/2 a year at a time while you build up infrastructure if you'd rather think of it that way). This allows players to expand at a reasonable pace while being protected in the algorithm with infrastructure points, rather than having to expand one year and then build up infrastructure the next. This would protect players who want to expand their nation (e.g. Yank's Manchuria) in algorithm wars and still let them expand their nation too, without having the expansion penalties and infrastructure scores completely cancel one-another out in the algorithm - which is bad because it'd remove the negative effects of expansion. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:40, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

So what you would have would be to build up infrastructure for 10 turns, and for 5 of those turns also expand, giving you a final score of +10 infrastructure and -5 for expansion? Sounds reasonable, if we can enforce it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:33, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yes or alternatively you'd get +15 infrastructure if you didn't want to expand. I see it as quite reasonable but we'll just have to make sure that players see these new revised rules and we explain them in a simple manner. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:28, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg - Mecklenburg War (1532)
Can someone do this for me please? Thanks. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:53, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

lol laziness (which I now beat by not doing your algorithm) The Royal Guns (talk) 00:23, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

If the war began in 1532, how come you've been building up your infrastructure, economy, and military every year (which is against the current rules even) with no mention of any war in your short copy-paste posts? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:12, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Your short copy-paste post in 1532 didn't even mention a war. You want me to make up that a war has gone on for 1532 and retcon four years of peace for some reason? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:15, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Oh wait, I got the year wrong. If you look at the year 1534 it's there. I only intend(ed?) the war to last for that year. And what do you mean that infrastructure, economy, and military every year is against the rules? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 01:45, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:30, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg
Total: 71.5
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6 (Larger Colonial Empire & attackers advantage)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Luxembourg (MV), Bavaria (M) = 10/4 = +2.5
 * Military Development: (14 years - 28) = 28 - 28/1 = +28
 * Economic Development: (6 years - 12) = +12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Count: 8016
 * UTC Time: 1957: 9*5*7 = 315
 * (8016/315)*pi = 79.942.....
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +8
 * 6 digits
 * larger 2
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Mecklenburg
Total: 34
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Mecklenburg (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 2
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +4
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((71.5/(39+71.5))*2)-1 = 0.342723... = 34.27%, enough to take over all of Mecklenburg. DEATH TO KAPPELISM!

Discussion
If the war lasts one year, I think you only get *quick mental calculation* 17.135%. Sorry. The Royal Guns (talk) 19:48, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

What? I thought the year rule applies only after two or more years. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:33, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

If that was the case then why bother with the war years rule? Of course it applies, all algorithms have to do the second part of the algorithm! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:14, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 01:46, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

So 17.135%. I see how it is. Can someone explain how many pixels that is? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 01:47, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Mecklenburg is 352 pixels large and 17.135% of 352 is 60.3152. So you win 60 pixels from Mecklenburg. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:24, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

It's not so bad. You conquered *another quick mental calculation* 300 sq km from Mecklenburg...

Wow. That is kinda small. Sucks for you, I guess.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:28, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate (Led by Tunis)
Total: 78
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6 (Larger Colonial Empire & attackers advantage)
 * Strength: Tunis (L), Tripoli (M), Egypt (M) = 12/4 = +3
 * Military Development: (10 years - 20) = 20 - 20/1 = +20
 * Economic Development: (6 years - 12) = +12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 5147
 * UTC Time: 19:03 - 27
 * 5147/27*pi = 598.880643888555556
 * Nation Age: (0): +0
 * Population: +10
 * 8 digits
 * larger 2
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Algiers
Total: 39 (pending)
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Algiers (L)
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 6?
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((78/(39+78))2)-1 = 0.33.... = 33.33..., which I believe is just enough to annex the Algerian nation.

Discussion
Did I do this correctly? Because I have the impression that I did quite a few things wrong. Fed (talk) 03:12, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

No. population, for starters.you can't have 10 in population, as this would mean that your country has one billion people.even if counting the caliphate as a whole, one billion is more than the whole planet's population at this time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:48, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Tunis didn't help in the war against Hindustan so no points lost for recent wars. Also expansion only counts if Tunisia has expanded in the last 15 years which it hasn't. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:49, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Bonman
Total: 41
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Bonoman (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 2590
 * UTC Time: 20:16
 * 42.526
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6 (fact courtesy wikipedia.)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -0

Muscovy/Poland
Total: 109
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Poland (L), Muscovy (L), Novgorod (M), Baltica (MV), Rostov (MV), Ryazan (MV), Pskov (MV), Moldova (MV), Sibir (MV), Lithuania (MV), Ruthenia (MV), Ukraine (MV), Belarus (MV) : 31/4= 7.75~ 8
 * Military Development: 10 + 10= 20/1 = 20
 * Economy: 20 + 20 = 40/1 = 40
 * Infrastructure:NA
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * see above
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Result
Russia can conquer ((109/(109+37))*2)-1 = 49.31% of the Bonoman, depending on the duration of the war. The war will be 2 years, Russia will conquer (49.31)*(.75) = 36.2325% of the Bonoman, doing the same, it is split evenly between Aukso Zeme, the Polish Colony, and Zelta Zeme, the Muscovian colony.

Can't annex anything, implausible to do so anyways. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:08, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Do colonies count for strength?

Now, to swiftly address any problems here;

According to wikipedia, the Bonoman have a population in 6 digits, until the 17th century, when it climbed, then collpased along with the state.

Muscovy and poland have sopent the better part of the decade shifting sizable protions of their army over to Africa.

And all those states can send military aid because Russia is, de jure, one nation, as a result, I, Muscovy, caould invade a country I do not border, as long as it borders the Federation and I don't take any land. This si how they send aid; through Muscovy/ Poland/ Novgorod.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:31, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

No this doesn't feel right to me, regardless of the algorithm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:40, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

As we said various times already: Muscovy can't have colonies yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:04, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

This war may be now stricken from the record, but still once Muscovy is allowed to make colonies in a few wars, then this war again will still yield the same similar questionable results. I mean a Russian state becoming a colonial power and defeating a major West African power (who is allied with Portugal) in the 1500s? No that isn't right in my eyes. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:53, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Without counting the fact that the Russians only would be able to control the coast, and areas not far from it.the only country that i know that estabilished a colonial presence inland on Africa before 1850 was Portugal with Moçambique.And, you know that Bonoman extends quite far inland.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:10, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah exactly but this algorithm would have allowed Russia to take over all of Bonoman regardless of plausibility and Russia's poor colonial prowess. This algorithm didn't include the mod-given bonus points to Bonoman though so is incomplete but it wouldn't take long for Russia to annex it via the war algorithm.

I think we need to some rules to regulate wars against native powers as the current situation is very unbalanced as it is much easier to attack and annex a native nation then expanding a colony into unknown territory. For Russia to get a colony the size of Bonoman they either can invade & annex a native nation or expand inland for decades. I think this imbalance needs to be addressed. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:51, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, and remember that some of the states helping here are so small that their help would be insignificant.(Pskov, Ryazan, Rostov)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:03, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

You can't make colonies yet, and you won't be able to make a colony on Africa for I think 30 years after your main colonies, so you can't win any territory from the war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:07, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Poland can do so in 1515. It is now 1535. Only 20 years, yes, but the fact is, Africa is much closer than America.

The Royal Guns (talk) 16:50, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

We never said nothing about Poland.we are talking to you as if you are controlling Muscovy.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:24, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Well, either way I think I'm just going to forget this war :P. The Royal Guns (talk) 13:53, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

China
Total: 68
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: China (L): 4 = 0
 * Military Development: +12
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 2812
 * UTC Time: 36
 * 2812/36*pi= 245.39329283
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +20
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Khoshut
Total: 36
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Strength: Khoshut (L):4 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Chinese victory. War will last for four years. (calculations still being done)

Discussion
You did chance wrong for NPC, I have corrected it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:53, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

You get 37%. Yank 02:05, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Plan for NPC bonus
There have been calls for NPCs to have some sort of bonus in a war. My simple idea is that every year where the NPC is not mentioned as doing anything in an event, we count them as improving their infrastructure. So generally, that would give them around 15 bonus points each war. (note that the Mestizo and Zapotecs have been devestated by the plagues and can't build their infrastructure). LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:13, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it seems probable that they also would be building up their militaries sometimes.so i think that we would need to include this,but without them getting too overpowered.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:46, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but its also probably that they would be building up their economies too.

How about this: every year that they are not at war or expanding, or having a disaster, NPC nations will build up one of the three. The number of total buildups will be divided into the three categories as evenly as possible, with preference going infrastructure>economy>military. However, so they don't get overpowered, their final score would be divided by two then rounded to the nearest whole.. So lets say that in the past 15 years the NPC only expanded by mod event once, so they had 14 blank years. That would mean 5 infrastructure, 5 economy, and 4 military. DIvided and rounded, that would give the NPC 3 infrastructure, 3 economy, and 2 military. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I like it! We can always do mod events if they're building up just their infrastructure, military or economy for something special too. But yeah I'm all for this. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:52, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

i support this suggestion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:05, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK, so the next year (1542), this will be implemented. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:20, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Satomi
Total: 52
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1, +5 (Colonial Empire?) =6?
 * Strength: 4 Satomi (L)
 * Military Development: (1534-1538 = 4 years) 8
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 7,887
 * UTC Time: 08:50 = 40
 * 7,887/40*pi = 619.44353147156748179387170909814...
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Kagawa
Total: 38
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: 4 Kagawa (L)
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Result
((52/(38+52))*2)-1 = 0.15555555555555555555555555555555...; 15.55%

(15.55)*(1-1/(2x5)) = 13.995 %

Satomi Clan wins and takes some land.

Discussions
Not sure weather or not to use an algorithm or not, seeing as it was my whole nation and I'm trying to unify it. -Kogasa 2012年12月02日 18:18:21 (JST)

Yeah you control all of the clans in Japan so you can decide how they interact and you can simulate wars yourself. Perhaps you also do some posts for the other clans as well because they're bound not to be just sitting around not doing anything while this is all happening. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:18, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I could, but Scan said that most of it should be done with mod events.

Hmm... maybe I'll try doing that then. I want to have Japan reunite by around 1585-1590 so... -Kogasa 2012年12月03日 00:13:02 (JST)

Copy /Pasting
Is it acceptable to copy paste turns? I've noticed a substantial amount of people doing so.Andr3w777 (talk) 13:27, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's only unnacceptable when you refuse to accept the changing conditions of your nation and the game itself. It's when your posts become increasingly divorced from the game's "reality" that you should really do something original.

Yank 14:56, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

Is acceptable, but not recommended, and what Yank said above.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:14, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

When I do it I'll keep the same base format but I'll change around the areas my country is amping up and also usually have one or two nations with more interesting things going on rather than just building up the military. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:33, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

And other thing that i have been noticing is people posting on a turn well after it has ended.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:33, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Inactivity
I've got finals coming up and a speech analogous to a term paper in my public speaking class soon. I've got to cut my time on this site (miniscule as it already is) down until appx. December 14th. If it isn't too much to ask, I'd like to have China expand its military every turn, though focus on the navy every other turn. Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience, everyone. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 16:27, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Lakota
Total: 60
 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:3
 * Strength: 5
 * Military Development: 3
 * Economy: 1
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Expansion: -4
 * Motive: Expansion, Political.
 * Chance:0-9=6
 * Edit Count: 336
 * UTC Time: 12:08=16
 * 336/16xpi=65.97344573=7
 * Nation Age:18+?
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Ute Tribes Total:43
 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:5
 * Strength: 5
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 1
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: Life and Death
 * Chance:0-9=3
 * Nation Age:0
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:0

Results: The Laktoa victory and occupation of the Ute People.

Mayans
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Aztecs
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Korea
Yeah, I officially resign from the game. Sorry but I have absolutely no free time to really post any creative posts on PMII. I can barely manage AvARe, with all the headaches about Turkey and all that. So yeah, until next time!

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:43, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

HRE Election
Hey, it must be a new election for Emperor, because Bradenburg is doing to much and is not respecting the rules of the empire, he cant declare war and order any ination of any kingdom. several times i read he is making orders to invade, attack, and in his position he cant do it, so nothig he orders is legal. A election must be done for a new Emperor. Quiari (talk) 04:48, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm the Emperor. I tell the states what to do. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:52, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but who chose you as emperor and when? You are usurping a position that do not correspond in any way to you. And so, any order you pretend to give, as false emperor, is invalid. Quiari (talk) 04:57, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

The Emperor was killed and as Chancellor, Brandenburg now has the power of the Emperor until a new one is elected. Scandinator (talk) 05:20, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Since when he is on this position, by the way?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:14, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Since the last one died childless. Scan is right. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 20:32, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

And when the last emperor died?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:30, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Labelled maps
What happened to the updating of the labelled maps? :P 77topaz (talk) 08:43, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I does it tomorroes :C There goes my day... Scandinator (talk) 14:52, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

I was in the process of building a named map for 1500, which I will try to finish next week when I'm off for the holidays. Here is how much I got done so far:

I'll update this map to show the rest of the countries don't worry. I am quite confused to which central Asian Khanate is which though. But yeah figured I make one for 1500 since we missed that year out.

I trust you can do the one for 1550 Scan? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:16, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Moldavia go annexed by Poland/Muscovy. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:24, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

What are you on about? That is completely irrelevant! This is a map of the world in 1500 which is before that happened. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:01, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ava got mislabelled as Hanthawaddy again. 77topaz (talk) 01:05, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I got that down the next version, just trying to do the rest before posting V2. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

The next two weeks
due to exams, I have not been able to be as active as I would have liked. This trend may continue for about two more weeks, and perhaps I may be devoid of posting duing the holidays because I may go overseas. In that case, If I do not post before 15:00 EST I give Guns or Ced(if of course he even decides to show) permission to post in my stead.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:02, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Gone for a while
School has been piling up. I'm sorry I haven't posted in a few days. I probably won't be able to post again until the apocalypse occurs (AKA December 21, 2012). LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:18, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

Gotcha. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 03:21, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

The in-game apocalyspe is probably going to co-incide with the "21/12/2012 apocalyspe" at this rate lol. The Mayans knew all along about PM2! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:28, December 14, 2012 (UTC)

At this rate the game is going to end in 2013, not 2012.

Yank 04:17, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I meant about the Mahdi apocalypse, but on looking at the figures I think we're going to miss it by a couple of days :(

PM2 won't finish until 2014 anyway (assuming it lasts until the present day). 463 in game turns left which is 1 year and 98 days in real life. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:33, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Colonisation Table
In the rules of PMII, there is a colonisation table, which I think shows how much each colony can be expanded by in  a turn. But I don't get the table, because I don't know what the rate of expansion is (pixels? square kilometres? something i multiply?)

Here's the table:

Help is appreciated. Airlinesguy (talk) 04:55, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

sq km.it's even on the sentence before this chart: "Within each turn, you may expand colonies by a given amount in areas that are black or dark grey on the map. They are given in square kilometres. Only use numbers divisible by 50 in your turns (e.g. do not use numbers like 734, round to 750). This is because 50 sq km is equal to one pixel."--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

And this is not how much a colony can expand.this is how much all your colonies can expand.like: if you have three colonies, and 134 years have passed since your first colony's founding, the expansion numbers for all colonies, if summed, can't be higher than 4000, for an example.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

OK thanks Collie! :) Airlinesguy (talk) 21:00, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Map Labelling
Okay guys, we said we would update the labelled map every 50 years, and it has been over a hundred. The political scenario is quite different, for example in the Central Asian states. To avoid confusion, such as declaring war on the wrong state, as Muscovy did, we need to make the long due labelled map. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:27, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

No complete map I mean to say. Saamwiil, the Humble 01:38, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm getting it done... It's taking a while since the colonies and states are a little confusing especially with the nations and territories lists unupdated but at least Asia and most of Europe are done. I'll also fix the nations list up after the map is uploaded in a couple of days and everyone had better fix up the territories page *also puts on guilty face*. I'm also gonna be at a friends house (likely getting smashed) for a couple days so expect both the 5 yearly map and the labelled map on Wednesday night or Thursday morning UTC time. Scandinator (talk) 14:39, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

So i'd better make the 5-yearly map, if it's only going to be out by 1557.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Collie. You are amazing. I don't know how I could have done the map with a hangover D: Scandinator (talk) 13:20, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

My Absence
I would like to apologize about my absence, as I've gotten really sick lately. It's not fatal, but I want to warn that I probably won't be on for a while. I'm just typing this on the PMII talk page so that everybody can know that I'm still alive.

Please and thank you in advance. Stewdio333 (talk) 07:21, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

This is a very scary thing to post. Phrases like 'it's not fatal' and 'I'm still alive' make everyone feel like you're on your deathbed. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:44, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Sorry about scaring everybody, it's just that my departure was really abrupt, compared to the previous time. I haven't been using the computer alot, since I really need to get better, but I'm alright. I just got a really bad flu, though I am feeling better. Plus, I promised someone that I was going on a trip after I got better, so I still won't be able to post. I'm much better though, so I'll be back eventually. Thanks. Stewdio333 (talk) 08:46, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, thanks for warning us before we considered you inactive.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:10, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ethiopia
Total: 50
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +3 (Attacker's Advantage, High Ground)
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L) = +4 --- 0
 * Military Development: (8 years=16) 16/1 = +16
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -6
 * Motive: +3 (Expansion)
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Count: 1,341
 * UTC Time: 17:58 - ?
 * 1341/280 = 15.0459848
 * Nation Age: 5 (Old nation)
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Adal
Total: 75* 1.5 = 113
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (Larger Colonial  Empire)
 * Strength: Adal (L +4), Hijaz (M +3), Yemen (L +4), Hadramut (M +3), Oman (M +3), Shaybah (M +3), Nejd (M +3), Egypt (M +3), East Qoyunlu (M +3), West Qoyunlu (M +3), Persia (M +3), Tripolitania (M +3), Syria (M +3), Palestine (M +3), Algeria (M +3), Iraq (M +3), Koli (M +3), Nubia (M +3) 52 52/4 --- 13
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * See above
 * Nation Age: -10/2 = -5
 * Population: +9 + 20 =29
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Result
((113/(50+113))*2)-1 = 38.65

(38.65)*(1-1/(2(4))) yields 33.81% The war last 4 years.

The Caliphate may annex Ethiopia.

Discussion
I have no idea how to handle the chance part. I'm still a bit stumpped on that part. So if anyone could help, I'd be very appreicative. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 00:20, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Your nation age shouldn't be considered ancient.your last government change was in 1270 (deposition of the Zagwe dynasty), and thus, your nation age score should be +5, as you are thus, an old nation.you only get this -5 after 1570, unless an change of government happens beforehand.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:16, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Say, how do you handle the chance bit? I suck at math to say the least in the more complicated areas, and couldn't really understand how to handle that part. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 16:28, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Chance is:

Editcount on main pages divided by the digits of the time of the declaration of war (if it was 19:59, it will be 1x9x5x9, thus: 405) multiplies by pi.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:16, December 19, 2012 (UTC)\

So, by how many years this war will last?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:18, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I plan on it being over either this year or the next, given that I've taken more than 33% of Adal's land. I'm not going to fight the Caliphate and its crazy huge armies. And thanks for the explaination on the chance thing. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 21:58, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

So, if the war is going to alst two years, you get only about 17,8% of Adalian territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:42, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Forget that then, I'll just vassalise it then. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 22:49, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

You can't vassalise a nation which you have such big differences with (e.g. religion), especially if you've had about 4 wars with them. Adal hates Ethiopia and they wouldn't agree to this humiliation willingly. Then again if you've beaten them enough then I guess if you offer them no other choice they'd agree to. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:41, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

You can only use Religious if Adal is increasingly putting people of your religion in a bad place. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:23, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, the rules say nothing about multiplying the opponent's score by 1,5 if it is on civil disarray.it says that " The amount of initial territory you can take from them is multiplied by *1.5 due to lack of unity"--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:32, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliphate just went through a massive government change (and will again soon), so I believe thaat's the 1.5* modifier. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:51, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Now we are facing more trouble again, as we don't know who we going to use for the values since we have two or three leaders.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:23, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the Caliphate cannot annex Ethiopia unless they go through a very, very long war, because they need 33.333%, right, so they must fight for over 10 years! Look: (33.77)*(1-1/20)= (33.77)*(.95)= 32.815%!

So, unless you want to fight for 12 years- which is what you need- you cannot annex them.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:48, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

That algorithm ain't complete: military and economic development scores for the Caliphate aren't in that algorithm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:25, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

So, how many years ago this government change happened?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:37, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

ANYWAY, Adal isn't part of the Caliphate, they shouldn't be getting the bonus. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:44, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Read post from other nations, it might help you. You might have missed the part where the Caliph declared Yemen as a Leader in the war, hence Adal is not the nation getting the bonus, Yemen is. Saam

Oh. *sigh* you seem to be driving out everyone, hmm? First you annexed Imp - he actually left the damn game because of that. Now you go after Viva. Well, at least you're not annexing him (unless you fight a 12 year war. A one year war gets you 17%, a 2 year war gets you 23%, a 10 years war gets you 32.815%...).

But guys, seriously- at least offer him a playership. And a serious one, not a vassaldom like with Imp.

The Royal Guns (talk) 21:01, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Ethiopia and Adal were traditional enemies, and despised each other for more than a century and a half. Persecution of Islam in Ethiopia and Christianity in Adal were epedemic, and Adal at once point actually conquered Ethiopia for about 30-40 years if I remember correctly. Regardless, I'm not going to be playing as Ethiopia anymore. Its too close to the Purple Kingdom Eater. I'll be playing as the Swahili city-states, with whom I am better aquanted. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 21:00, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Why? You haven't been conquered! You'll make all of it back up when you collapse! The Royal Guns (talk) 21:03, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

I think I should say that I don't think it is possible for games to got to hell... That said, No, we didn't offer Imp vassalage. We offered him a legitmate place in the Caliphate, as long as he didn't try jeopordising us. The same goes for Ethiopia. Anyhow, we only need 4 years to conquer them. The algorithm is done. But that is ongoing, hence traditional enemies. It has to be increasingly. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:12, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. Misread that.

Cool, then. Leave. Reconquest and sieze back Africa when them Caliphials are rotting.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:55, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Excellent then. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 21:26, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Archiving
Couldn't help but notice that the page is blank, yet all the writing is still there under it. You guys took too long to archive it again. May want to do so ;) Lordganon (talk) 09:55, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't have any idea of what's happening.this "blank page" problem doesn't happen to me as far as i remember.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:09, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

It's a problem that happens whenever a page gets too big/full of code. Lordganon (talk) 06:43, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Russia
Total: 109
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6 (attacker, larger Colonial empire (Poland's Aukso Zeme))
 * Strength: Muscovy (L), Novgorod (M), Poland (L), Baltica, (MV), Rostov (MV), Moldova (MV), Sibir (MV), Pskov (MV), Ruthenia (MV), Ukraine (MV), Lithuania (MV), Prussia (MV), Ryazan (MV): 31/4: 8
 * Military Development: Muscovy (20) Poland (10): 30/1: 30
 * Economy: Poland (20): 20/1: 20
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 2696
 * UTC Time: 20:31
 * 13.660...
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -0

Abdurahimlyye
Total: 27
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Abdurahimlyye (4) :0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * See above
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Russia annexes ((109/(109+27))*2)-1 = 60.29% of Abdurahimlyyean territory, war lasts for 2 years, allowing us to annex (60.29) * (1- .25) = 45% of Abdurahimlyye, a time period which has already elapsed :)

Return of Granada
Hello, I'm back. Willster22 here. I can't login too my original account at the moment, but if I remember my original agreement for being a vassal of Naples was that I still keep most of my freedom. And Quiari I am sorry for not getting back to you on that, I was busy. The Emirate of Granada is back.

you are not his vassal anylonger and burgundy would like to open a new relationship with you Sine dei gloriem (talk) 20:43, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Granada is in a war of independence sponsered by Venice and Scandinavia.

Granada would love to begin relations with burgundy, and future apology if accidentally dissapear again, but it'll be a longtime till then again, so don't owry at the moment, Also "sponsored by Venice" I thought they were still on Castille's side from the coalition war where we lost.

they are, what he means by that its that he was funding movements to revolt against the napolitans aswell as the war against naples Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:08, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

No matter, I still want Gibraltar.

Venice/Scandinavian Coalition
Total: 85.5
 * Location: 7/2=3.5
 * Tactical Advantage: 6 (attacker, larger Colonial empire (Venetian/Scandinavian colonies))
 * Strength: Venice (L), Scandinavia (L), Modena (MV), Siena, (MV), Croatia (MV), Bosnia (M), Serbia (M), Granada (M)/ Cyprus (M)/ Burgundy (S)/ Portugal (M), Brandenburg (S), Luxembourg (M): 36/6 = 6
 * Military Development: 30+6/1 = 36
 * Economy: 10+0/1 = 10
 * Infrastructure: does not count
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 1577
 * UTC Time: 03:42 = 3x4x2 = 24
 * 1577/24 x pi = 206,42881727...
 * Nation Age: 0+0/2 = 0
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Naples
Total: 34
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Naples (L), Savoy (MV) : 0
 * Military Development : 0
 * Economy:  0
 * Infrastructure:  0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 8 (using Coalition's chance since Naples' player is not here)
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -0
 * Recent Wars: -0

Result
85,5/119,5 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,430962344

The Coalition wins 43% of Napolitan territory.

(p)*(1-1/(2x)) = (43)*(1-1/(6)) = 35,8%

Crushing Coalition Victory.

The war will have to last 3 years for the Napolitan government to be toppled.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:09, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
burgundy wants to participate,may i? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:29, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Cyprus does too. Airlinesguy (talk) 23:37, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

If you support us, of course! Scandinator (talk) 01:53, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if, on your own words, "knock Naples down a few notches" can be considered as a life or death motive for Naples.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:56, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

ok, if this is correct who gets what,?

The coalition gets 17% of Naples. Yank 21:39, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

would burgundy get the Panamanian colony of naples Sine dei gloriem (talk) 21:41, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

And Naples has 7388 pixels.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:42, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

The Papal States are now in the war. ChrisL123 (talk) 21:48, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

And Portugal too.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:29, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Cyprus is now M, JSYK. Airlinesguy (talk) 23:36, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

The Panama colony goes to Burgundy while Limon goes to Venice, Rio del Plata goes to Portugal, Venice annexes Sicily, Malta and Sardinia, Burgundy gets Frenchier parts of Savoy and the Papal States expand south, Venice takes the reaminder of Savoy and Southern Naples as puppet states in a new Italian League. Scandinator (talk) 01:58, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

may i request a part of the Savoyan Rio de la plata colony, i also want a southern outpost in america to start trading with asia Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:11, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Aragon-Brandenburg kindly requests part of Sicily and small islands, as we owned Naples first. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:29, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Russia will send aid. Well, at least I think so, Lx isn't around, right? 69.141.186.216 02:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

'''You're forgetting your kind co-leader, Scandinavia. '''

Burgundy, you're asking too much; The small part in Panama or nothing at all, your choice.AP (talk) 05:10, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

There is still the Napolitan African colony.we could give it to Scandinavia.And that other napolitan estabilishment on the Niger River (in which i also would be interested, but this is optional).--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Lol how could I forget Scandinavia... Hmmm, I'd prefer to keep Italian areas to myself, Milan or the Papal States. Maybe Portugal can have the part of the northern settlement on South America in OTL Uruguay and Scandinavia could take the southern half and the second settlement? That way you can colonize OTL Argentina and Chile - colder climates. And then those African colonies... one to Cyprus, one to the Pope? And then there is also the promise of Venetian help for your next conquest Scandinavia :D  Scandinator (talk) 13:07, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I give up this Niger river part, but i still want the other part of the Platan colony.However, with England out of the picture on colonization, i won't mind the Scandinavians colonizing below OTL Bahia Blanca.They might even have that OTL mar del plata attachment to the Savoyard colony.I don't even have any designs on Chile.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:11, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Ok guys, here is a final table of winnings:

VENICE: Limon, Sicily, Malta, Sardinia, rest of Savoy and Naples.

SCANDINAVIA: southern half of the settlement in Atlantia(Mar del Plata), Venetian aid

PAPAL STATES: Neapolitan African colony, expansion to the south.

BURGUNDY: Expansion into Northern Savoy, Panama colony

PORTUGAL: Northern settlement as you described above

ARAGON-BRANDENBURG: Small islands around Aragon's former holdings in Naples, awarded to ARAGON

BOSNIA, SERBIA, and GRANADA are now independent.

CYPRUS: Niger river establishment

So the war ends in 1559 or 1560?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:40, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Just edited Collie's list. Scandinator (talk) 00:03, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't my list and this also isn't my style.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:58, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, can Aragon also get Malta? Everything else we have sounds pretty nonexistant, as we're basically getting mountain islands and unprofitable icebergs. :( Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:19, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

I've been trying to get malta since 1450. I have no idea who posted the Aragon-Brandenburg section but I dont think there really is anything I can give at the moment except for those ships which count as an extra year of military expansion. Hmmm I'll help you with establishing another colony then...Scandinator (talk) 12:43, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, i suspect that Willster made that list.it isn't signed, and lately, he hasn't been signing his posts.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:31, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Russia offered military aid... The Royal Guns (talk) 17:18, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Mapmaking
Hey everyone, I will be unable to make the map for 1560 since it is Christmas Eve here in Australia and I'm cooking... Furthermore I will be going on holidays on the 28th till the 11th of January. I will leave Venice in the care of AP. Scandinator (talk) 15:02, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

So this means that i'll have to do the maps from 1560 to 1580, ain't it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:48, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

I will be unvailable from the 24 th(tomorrow) till the 11th of January. i leave my possesions in the capable hands of either Scraw or Lurk, this is for PMII and Medieval World. Thank YouAndr3w777 (talk) 17:36, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Gotcha. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:17, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

What 11th of January has that both of your absences only end this day?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:50, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * The 11th supplies over three straight weeks of vacation. I'm going to be on vacation until then too, but I've got me a Mac awaiting me. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:17, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * @#$% I have only till jan 3rd! The Royal Guns (talk) 17:18, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Anglo-Germany
I'm putting it out here. Scraw's Anglo-German Union won't work. First it came into fruition after many years of dplomacy between the two nations which Scraw has apparently decided to skip. Second, the English are a bunch of independance-minded states rather than one nation. You wouldn;t be able to con them out of independance so quickly after they won it. Thirdly it happened long after the Holy Roman Empire bit the dust. Yank 02:15, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

No idea what you're talking about. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:20, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I get what you mean now. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:22, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) The diplomacy is still ongoing.
 * 2) I'm saving it. It's not happening immediately.
 * So?
 * And,  most importantly , stop comparing this to OTL's Anglo-German Union. Name matters not.

The former English still said no. Yank 02:25, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Say what? Please clarify. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:28, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

They declined any proposal of Anglo-Germanism, and still, the English are most likely very strongly-independentist and looking for dominance amongst each other, thusly less than interested in the Germans (who are also low on prestige since the HRE's been crumbling apart for a few years). And an Anglo-German Union, despite it not being OTL's Anglo-German Union, would still need decades, maybe centuries, of negotiation. Fed (talk) 03:30, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

What Anglo-German union? are you talking about the time when England was in personal union with Hannover?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:29, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I assumed he was talking about, yes. Fed (talk) 21:12, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Unless its dynastic union following many decades of improving relations with one of the German states, then this isn't happening. No way it'd happen. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:15, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * ...But that's exactly what I'm trying to do. How does no one get this? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:02, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * You want a double dynastic/personal union? Is that allowed? Or even possible? ChrisL123 (talk) 19:27, December 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd guess it would be possible, but it would also be an extremely fragile state and most likely on the brink of overextension. Fed (talk) 21:12, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * And plus, that would be really lucking out for this to happen.this is something that usually only happens once per century or so. (Burgundy inheriting Brabant, Franche-Comté, Rethel, Nevers and Flanders on the 14th century, and Austria inheriting Castille, Aragon and Burgundy on the 15th century)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:00, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * My original plans were to have some sort of union by the 1590s, and then have the reigning monarch die in the early 1610s or 1620s and split England away from the existing union. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 07:05, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate
Total: 55*1.5 = 82.5
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire)
 * Strength: East Qoyunlu (L +4), Al-Slaveit (M for rest), Crimea, Georgia, Circassia, West Qoyunlu, Karamanm Cilesia, Iraq, Persia, Afganistan, Balochistan, Koli, Deccan, Gujurat, Nejd, Shaybah, Oman, Hadramut, Yemen, Hijaz, Palestine, Syria, Tunisia, Tripolitania, Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia, Rumelia, Wallachia, Candar, Anatolia = 100 = 100/8 = 13
 * Military Development: 24
 * Economy: 2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3 (defense at first, but almost immedietley more land)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 696
 * UTC Time: 06:14
 * 696/24 x pi = 91,1061869541040039154...
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 9 +20
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Timurid Empire
Total: 28
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (Attacker)
 * Strength: Timurid Empire (L +4), Aqmola (MV +2), Mangyastau (MV +2) = 8 = 0
 * Military Development: 2
 * Economy: 2
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 3 (acquire more land)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5
 * Recent Wars: -5

Result
((83/(28+83))*2)-1 = 49.54%

(49.54) * (1- (1/4)) After 4 years, the Caliphate annexes the Timurids, Aqmola and Mangyastau. Saamwiil, the Humble 18:10, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of War
I was going to instigate this war myself (hence I got the dual khans back) but you beat me too it I see. I've amended the Caliph's post for this year to be more inclined for this invasion. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:49, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Expatriate Kingdoms in the New World
I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks that all these new kingdoms of fleeing christians are implausible. I know that the christians in the Caliphate aren't exactly 1st class citizens, but they would never up and just leave their homeland--the only place they know. They wouldn't leave their homes for a place they don't know at all. Think about it this way, if the Balkan nations under Ottoman rule didn't like Islam being over their heads, why didn't they pack their bags for the New World? Because they were attached to their homes and they would never leave. Even if they could leave, a majority of them would not leave. I think those kingdoms should be retconned because they are simply implausible. I consulted LG on this matter and he also struck it down as implasible, not to mention that "not a word of that would have ever happened." Regards,AP (talk) 06:41, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

The Ottomans gave a lot of autonomy to the Millet System, which might be a contributing factor. Also, for New Georgia, the Caliphate's government funded its founding, which would give them the fund to do so. I'm sure they would rather be  majority and be in control under Christians than be a minority and be under the control of Muslims. Saamwiil, the Humble 19:03, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the very existance of the Caliphate should have been retconned a long time ago. Besides, as Saamwill says the Christians want to have a place where they aren't being lorded over by heretics. There's also the fact that the European nations grabbed huge chunks of the New World for themselves very quickly after the discovery of it. Plus there's the fact that the nation of Vinland is effectively another such expatriate state, and they have stood unchallenged for years in-game. Stranger things have happened in these games. I don't think this is as bad as repeatedly ressurecting your leader to avoid thinking up a new name. Yank 19:07, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think you all are missing the point here. They simply would not leave, even if the Caliphate gave them all the gold in the world. I'm sure the Balkan christians would have rather been a ruling majority but they never left nor was there any sort of feeling that would spur them to leave. As for the Caliphate, similar-sized caliphates have been around like the Umayyads and the Abbasids so it's not implausible.Where is Vinland?AP (talk) 19:24, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am perfectly fine with the expatriate kingdoms; what I'm not fine with is that I would believe that as soon as the empire stopped treating them like trash they'd stop leaving, since, like AP said, they'd be attached to their homes. New Georgia makes sense, since it was helped by the Caliph, and a few extremists leaving for New Syria and Nea Gyptios and New Judea or whatever also make some sense and I find it a cool idea, but it wouldn't be the whole population of Christians leaving for the Americas, it'd be a minority. Fed (talk) 19:31, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Why is it that the Caliphate can get away with "implausible religious tolerance" when the Holy Roman Empire can't? I sense a double standard that needs to be rectified quickly. Yank 15:35, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

It's not a "double standard", it's you have a vendetta against the Caliphate because they destroyed a kingdom whose name was Italian for "of Murad" and nothing else. Islam was far more tolerant than Christianity was at the time. Fed (talk) 17:15, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't change the fact that the Christians hate the Muslims and have for centuries. It doesn't matter how much better they treat them, as they are still Muslim heretics in the eyes of the Christians. Besides, after a while the expansion would cease being immigration-based and start being based on the natural expansion of population. I've gotten over Dimurat anyway. Dimurat actually means something in the divergent Dimurati language. What it means I don't know, but it means something other than what you say it does. I still say your nation was already bloated enough before you annexed the Timurids. Yank 18:03, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, alright. If being ruled by heretics is such a problem for Christians, then explain to me how they have perfectly lived in harmony with Muslim leadership, sometimes far more oppresive and with they being in far better conditions, for nine hundred years in TTL and over 1300 in OTL. And yes, I have no problem with expansion; I do have a problem, however, with Christians continuing to leave and leave Syria, Egypt and Palestine when it would only be an extremist majority. Fed (talk) 21:14, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Probably because they thought they had no other option. Now they do, and they're going to take it. Besides, the fanatical Mahdi is definitely going to make the Caliphate an unpleasant place to be for a non-Muslim resident. Yank 22:45, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so Greeks and Syriacs in the 1500s in OTL had less options than those ITTL, even if Caliphal interest is as low as any Muslim country's IOTL? And not really. They'll be pressured to convert because the end is coming, but the real pressure would be placed beyond the boundaries. Besides, they wouldn't risk losing everything and, after, be in extremely risky ships to a land they don't know just because some Muslim said 'oy, go convert' to them. Fed (talk) 01:28, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Fine. I'll retcon the recent surge in emmigration. As long as the existence of the nations themselves isn't challenged I'm fine with that. Yank 16:40, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Fed (talk) 17:51, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg
Total: 78
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Scandinavia (M), Luxembourg (S), Saxony (M), Magdeburg (S) = 14/4 = 3.5 ~ 4
 * Military Development: 26
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 8751
 * UTC Time: 16:35
 * 1*6*3*5 = 90
 * 8751/90 x pi = 305.4675...
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: 16
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: - 1

Erokees
Total: 46/51
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: Erokees (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Economy: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5/10
 * Chance: 7
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
((78/(78+38))*2) - 1 = 34.48%

Discussion
Infrastructure doesn't count for your score unless you are the defender.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:40, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:49, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.it's even on the rules.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:07, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

And plus, your capital is pretty much in the other side of the world, the chance for NPC's isn't random (is the number right after your number), and your score can only be 3 on motive, because you aren't defending your ownteritory, and fighting to help an ethnicity on their nation is pretty much implausible, since it is an native nation, after all.their motive is 10, as you already had shown pretensions of annexing them before, and all the other motives that give 7 do not apply.and, your ages are pretty much the same, as the formation of the Haudenosaunee and the last government change of Brandenburg happened on the same timeframe.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:28, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK. I'll fix the math in the morning; I'm going to sleep now. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 07:17, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK I'm doing this all over again. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 23:18, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Again, you did the economy wrong, the Haudenosaunee appeared in 1458, so it was more than 100 years ago.And there ain't no way their motive can't be 10, counting the precendents.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:44, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

No, it's five. I'm trying to get as much as possible, not all of it. And these advantages are becoming really implausible. How on earth can native tribes fight back armed Europeans? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 07:26, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in OTL, the Haudenosaunee themselves survived until the 18th century.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:39, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Notification
I might be a bit inactive the next week or so (I already was a bit) because of the holidays. 77topaz (talk) 03:03, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I also might be absent from today until tuesday, or it is thursday? i always confuse these the day before wednesday.but don't worry, the map will be ready before 1570 ends, and i already told AP to take my place on posting in case that i can't access the internet there.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:53, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The day before wednesday is tuesday. Also I can do the map if you want. You'll probably want to update your colonies yourself mind you, so take the current updated map for 1565 and upload it for 1570 with your colonial expansion on it and I'll do the rest. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:46, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Mahdiate
Total: 64*1.5 = 96
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (larger colonial empire, attacker) +6
 * Strength: Wallachia (M), Rumelia (L), Anatolia (L), Candar (M), Karaman (M), Cilesia (M), Trbizond (M), Al-Slaveit (M), Crimea (M), Georgia (M), Circassia (M), West Qoyunlu (M), East Qoyunlu (M), Iraq (M) Persia (M), Afghanistan (M), Balochistan (M), Koli (M), Gujurat (M), Deccan (M), Mangyastau (M), Dimurats (M), Bukhara (M), Xwarezm (M), Turkistan (M), Aqmola (M), Oman (M), Shaybah (M), Nejd (M), Hadramut (M), Yemen (M), Ehthiopia (M), Nubia (M), Hijaz (M), Egypt (M), Palesine (M), Syria (M), Tripolitania (M), Tunisia (M), Algeria (M): 122/22 -- 5.545 ~ +6
 * Military Development: +4
 * Economy: +4
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit Count: 5,961
 * UTC Time: 21:32 - 2*1*3*2 = 12
 * 5,961/12*pi= 1560.58615067
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 9 +20 = +29
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Byzantium
Total: 32
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Byzantium (L), Venice (M), Scandinavia (S), Papal States (M), Austria (M), Tyrolia (MV), Salzburg (MV), Cyprus = 22 -- 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 34
 * UTC Time: 21:32 - 2*1*3*2 = 12
 * 34/12*pi= 8.90117918517
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
((96/(32+96))*2)-1 = 0.5

(50)*(1-1/(2*2)=37.5

The Caliphate wins 37.5% following a 2 year war meaning that they can annex the Byzantine empire.

Discussions
I think you need a leader, else the military development scores and the economy scores can't be done.i assume the leader would be likely Rumelia, ain't it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:39, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say Rumelia would be the leader. Fed (talk) 17:51, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Rumelia makes the most sense.

Also wouldn't relgion be the reason? The Mahdi wants to spread Islam rather than gaining economic resources.

Also thank you very much for making the algorithm I was dreading doing it. --<font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:42, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The HRE states are missing. I'll add them. And can all the Caliphate states always give M or S in a war? Sounds kind of ridiculous... Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:55, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

That is a bit ridiculous, considering that most of the turns by the Caliphate in 1566 are "builds up its economy/military", with no word of being involved in the war, yet their names are still in the algorithm. ChrisL123 (talk) 19:21, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

What he said. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:34, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The Byzantium side has a larger colonial empire(Scandinavia, Venice, etc). Not to mention the penalties for recent wars on the side of the Caliphate. Isn't there penalties for having 3+ wars at once(Byzantium, Morocco, Adal, etc).AP (talk) 19:46, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

No you misunderstand the algorithm, its colonial empire of the countries which are fighting in the war only. So only the colonial empires of Byzantium and Caliphate are considered.

And the wars being waged at the same time are being done by different provinces of the caliphate so that stuff don't apply. Its the same as penalizing Venice for a war fought by Brandenburg just because they both in the HRE. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:22, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about the leaders here. And you guys don't have a colonial empire, just an empire. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:25, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * No you fool, we have colonies in Africa, 4 colonies to be exact. Socotora, Chomellak and two in South Africa. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

How are Ethiopia and Nubia going help you in this war with crossing masses of land and water? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:26, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The same can be said for Scandinivia, Austria, etc. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Cyprus supports Byzantium BTW. Airlinesguy (talk) 01:08, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Military aid I take it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. Airlinesguy (talk) 00:16, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

On the other algorithms, the coalition's colonial empire was considered. The penalties make no sense because there should be a hefty penalty for fighting a 3 front war. Wouldn't that be a bit difficult for anyone? And that example made no sense because the Caliphate is a single entity with provinces while the HRE is a loose federation of sovereign states.AP (talk) 01:17, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Byzantium are not fighting in a coalition. And my example makes perfect sense if that is how we've been treating the caliphate for the past 100 years. Please read the rules and check past examples properly before applying them to this case. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliphate gets 20% of Byzantium. Yank 14:24, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Mahdiate
Total: 13
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Wallachia (M), Rumelia (M), Anatolia (M), Candar (M), Karaman (M), Cilesia (M), Trbizond (M), Al-Slaveit (L), Crimea (L), Georgia (M), Circassia (M), West Qoyunlu (L), East Qoyunlu (M), Iraq (M) Persia (M), Afghanistan (M), Balochistan (M), Koli (M), Gujurat (M), Deccan (M), Mangyastau (M), Dimurats (M), Bukhara (M), Xwarezm (M), Turkistan (M), Aqmola (M), Oman (M), Shaybah (M), Nejd (M), Hadramut (M), Yemen (M), Ehthiopia (M), Nubia (M), Hijaz (M), Egypt (M), Palesine (M), Syria (M), Tripolitania (M), Tunisia (M), Algeria (M) 123
 * Military Development: 73
 * Economy: 2
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Muscovy
Total: 15
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Results
Pending

Discussion
Should we do the war algorithms for the invasions of Adal and Morocco first? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:46, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Kappelist League
Total: 30 (tentatively)
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (attacker) +1
 * Strength: Milan (L), Brunswick (M), Lauenburg (M), Hesse-Wolfenbuttel (M), Paderborn (M), Nassau (M), Strassburg (M), Munster (M), Breman (M), Altmark (M), Mecklenburg (M): 34 --> 0
 * Military Development: +12 -- 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +1
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +1
 * Edit count: 796
 * UTC time: 08:58
 * 8*5*8= 320
 * (796/320)*pi = 7.8147117258
 * Nation Age: +0 (or -10, depends on if changing to a Kappelist regime counts as a change of government).
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Catholic League
Total: 84 (tentatively)
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (larger colonial empires)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Luxembourg (L), Papal States (L), Provence (MV), Saxony (L), Venice (M), Siena (M), Modena (M), Croatia (MV), Burgundy (M), Calais (M), Magdeburg (MV), Aragon (M), France (M), Austria (M), Tyrolia (MV), Salzburg (MV), Mecklenburg (SW), Anhalt (MVW): 52/34 = 1.529 = +2 (ALL SET TO CHANGE)
 * Military Development: 26 (Brandenburg), 10 (Luxembourg), 28 (Papal States), 14 (Saxony) = 78/12 = 6.5 = +7
 * Economy: +8 (Luxembourg), +2 (Brandenburg), +2 (Pope), +0 (Saxony) = +12
 * Infrastructure: 12 (Brandenburg), 6 (Luxembourg), +0 (Saxony), +0 (Pope) = 18/1 = +18
 * Expansion: -1 (Brandenburg War in New World)
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: (Using Imperial government numbers) = +8
 * Edit Count: 8813
 * UTC Time: 1439
 * 1*4*3*9 = 108
 * (8831/108)*pi = 256.883...
 * Nation Age: [5 (Brandenburg), +0 (Luxembourg), +5 (Papal States)]/3 = 3
 * Population: +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Results
Crushing Catholic League victory, ((84/(84+30))*2)-1 = 47.37%

The war continues, and the League will determine when the war ends. ChrisL123 (talk) 21:04, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria
Total: 32+chance (tentatively)
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Bavaria (L): 4 --> 0
 * Military Development: +12 -- 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance:
 * Edits: 2039
 * Time:
 * Nation Age: +0 (or -10, depends on if changing to a Kappelist regime counts as a change of government).
 * Population: +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Imperials
Total: 41
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (larger empire: Austria (including vassals and the such)), +1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Saxony (L), Austria (L), Tyrolia (M), Salzburg (MV), Magdeburg (M), Altmark (MV), Switzerland (M), Croatia (MV) = 23/4 = 2.75 = 3
 * Military Development: 16 (Saxony) = 16/12 = 1.33 = 1
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 1
 * Edits: 8882
 * Time: 1457 (1*4*5*7 = 140)
 * 8882/140*pi = 199.311...
 * Nation Age: +5 (Saxony), +0 (Austria) = +5
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Discussion
Bavaria's government did not change, many reichstag members, as well as the royal family, were secretly Kappelist. (thank you for setting up the algorithm scraw, i'm not good at it.)

i should have a plus for infrastructure as I built it up too, it wasn't just the militaryAndr3w777 (talk) 01:01, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

can somebody please add my infrastructure years and figure our chance??Andr3w777 (talk) 20:40, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Mecklenburg
Total: 34
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Mecklenburg (L), Altmark (L): 8 --> 0
 * Military Development: +0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: +0 (or -10, depends on if changing to a Kappelist regime counts as a change of government).
 * Population: +4 (Meck.), +4 (Alt.)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

German Coalition

 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (larger colonial empires)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Saxony (L), Magdeburg (MV), Anhalt (MV): 12/8 = 1.5 = 2
 * Military: 26 (B), 10 (S)
 * Economy: +4 (B)
 * Expansion: -1 (B)
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 7
 * (8889/(1*7*5*5 = 175)*pi) = 159.574...
 * Nation Age: +5 (B), +5 (S): +10
 * Population: 8 (B), 6 (S): +14
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Total: 87

Result
((87/(87+34))*2) - 1 = 43.80%