Talk:Principia Moderni/Archive 1

Is the area directly above Venice unclaimed -Chicagoan 17:01, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
It's the "Small States"--you have to conquer it. Cosman246 15:25, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

2050
Sorry, but no future history, so it cannot end in 2050 PitaKang 19:43, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

But couldn't it be present day history by the time we finish. It will be at least 2011. even though it is currently 2010.Chicagoan 20:01, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

2050 is unrealistic. It must be moved to either "present," "2011," or "2012." Lordganon 20:04, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Joining
I'd be interested in helping get this off the ground by providing a better map and stuff. Is this game active at all? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:43, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

No, it kind of died before it got off the ground. However, might I suggest you join the States of America Map Game or the Travel (Map Game)? BoredMatt 01:54, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Not really what I was looking for, no offence, but thanks for the offer. This is a formal adoption request. If the author doesn't come back or respond within a week I'll create something similar. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 02:12, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Can I be Poland, on the list it was empty so I signed up but someone on the last tun said they were Poland, what nation can I be? The Aztecs or Inca could work too though. DeanSims 15:48, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

Start now
Let's start now we have enough players and everything PitaKang 05:22, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

If there's enough interest, I'll fix up the map. I'm interested unifying a few Mon States for my country. Is that allowed? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:29, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. No offense to the creator, but this map sucks. It would be very appreciated if you get a better map. PitaKang 05:32, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully it will attract more people that way lol. Does anyone know where an existing map might exist from that time period? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 07:28, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

The map is complete, the creator is long gone, and we have plenty of players. No reason not to start now. I'll have the 21st as the official start date, which will give more people a chance to join. If I don't get any replies I'll start posting on talk pages. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 07:30, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Just to put it out there, if anyone wants a nation not on the list, you can sign up for it, as long as it existed in 1420. Many Asian and African states were omitted on Cosman's sign-up list, so check the eastern hemisphere map for your desired nation. No micronations or microstates, though, although city states are allowed provided they expand during the game. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:05, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

May we begin? BoredMatt 01:36, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead; we're going on UTC time. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 04:08, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't have to do with starting time, but we need more nations in Europe. Otherwise some European nation will take over all of Europe because there is no one to oppose them. I suggest each user taking a European nation and not just Eastern ones Roguejedi 04:32, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to keep this game from turning into an imperial Europe game. This game purposely starts at 1420, when Europe and the rest of the world were about the same level of advancement. I don't see a reason why Europe should get any special privileges, just because it happened to dominate OTL between about the 1400s to the 1930s, and most people seem to treat it like the centre of the world. East Asia is slightly larger, it was just as advanced as Europe in 1420, and it only has two nations in game, and no one's complaining. Basically this timeline is unique in that it gives a chance for all nations to become superpowers, rather than only "Eastern" or "Western" nations. However, you bring up a valid point, in that with so few nations, there is nothing stopping the world from collapsing into a just a few superpowers. In order to keep this from happening, I'm going to say simply‚ don't be too big for too long. Everyone has been forewarned. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:21, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yes but the people in Europe will take it over and because it was the center of the world at that time, will declare themselves unstoppable. There is no way to correctly "manage" this game, because some people will be just as unrealistic as they want. Europe was the center of the world for a reason, and, for a long tme, Eastern powers were more advanced than the westerners. Europe had the money, the people, and accepted technology when they got it, unlike Eastern powers. It seems that this map game is so fucused on the Middle East and Asia that Europe has been excluded. Roguejedi 15:10, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Then how is it that there are the same number of nations (5 1/2) in Europe as there are in all of Asia? You can't say it's focused on The Middle East. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:28, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

You're right, I thought the Kalmar union was one country. Anyway, Each user should have two nations (one has to be a small one) because, as in all map games, many of the people will quit after a month or so. Then only four or five nations are being played and the world just becomes a bunch of superpowers, making the map game really boring. Then people start going to the moon and building things there and nuking the entire earth and sending spaceships to other planets and on and on and on. Roguejedi 16:28, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

My idea is you can have unlimited smaller spin-off states starting at a given date, like maybe 1650. Like how Mongolia came off China off Kyrgyzstan off the Soviet Union. But they have to come off your major state, not random. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 20:54, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Who would want to create a spin-off state. Many people will just keep their country the way it is, not weaken it by creating a spin-off state. Roguejedi 15:53, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Then why would they want two nations? If they wanted England as a first nation and France as a second, then it's as easy as invading France and splitting it off again. Also, eventually everyone's going to have to give up most of their colonies in the XX century which would create a ton of spinoff nations. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 17:45, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

They will refuse too. Give me one good expample from a map game on this site where a nation has freed moer than one or two of its colonies. In other map games, having more than one nation usually works well. Roguejedi 20:02, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'd support it if it retained plausibility (which it would). Anything's better than having the world degenerate into a mess of 10 or 11 superpowers. BoredMatt 21:16, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Modeling after the real world, I am going to allow people to hate on/cut relations with/pressure people who make gigantic superpowers. As a civil person, I'm going to decolonize a lot. And every one else should too. But lol, it doesn't even matter until after WWII. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:10, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

The question is, will they? And if they do, they are going to find a way to reclaim teh countries that they make or make them puppet states. We still need more nations in Europe, and I am vey worried by the KU, because it gets three turns a year and will conquer everything. Roguejedi 00:19, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

If you care that bad, I'll formally give you the right to annoy the heck out of people who expand too quickly. The KU really is within the rules, though. But it is in your best interest to ally with nearby Venice and other powers. Also if you want, as your OTL colony, Hanthawaddy can offer an alliance in the future. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 00:30, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but I'll join as Japan. Cosman246`

Expansion
Hey. Expansion is out of control. A more accurate figure to observe would be invading 1/30 of your country's size per year, not like 1/5. I've had to restrain a couple of invasions as you can see on the map. Again, the more you spread out your invasions, the better it will be for you in the future. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 16:32, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

This is what happens with most map games. I (England) have only invaded Scotland and s in the proccess of invading Ireland because of the wish to unite the British isles. The invasion of Brittany is going to be in a while because I am worried by the KU's rapid expansion. I think in a little while you should declare a period (10 or so) turns of peace and no expansion so countries can work on their economy and interior Roguejedi 16:49, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

That's an idea, but it would make the timeline look weird. I'm just going to say that in the future, "natural" events will benefit people who spend less turns on expansion and more on their economy and diplomacy. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:53, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

The people with more colonies would have more of a chance to be attacked by the natives in the area. If you have a lot of colonies, how about you have a greatly increased chance to have revolutions and native attacks, decmating the colony. Roguejedi 15:39, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but I'm going to leave it in a cloud of mystery for now. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 16:03, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

UTC


Find your region and time zone, then scroll to the bottom. The time at the bottom (off by exactly 12 hr) is when you can start making edits. So if I live in Sydney, Australia, I can make edits at 22:00-12:00=10:00, which is 10:00 AM. Kay? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:26, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Hello
Hi! I don't know if you can remember me from ConWorlds, but when I got on lately, the first thing I saw was you and superwarmonkey's conversation. I would like to enter this game as the Austrailian Aboriginals, talk to ya later. For the trees! - (Page-Land - Talk) 00:50, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Dai Viet/Vietnam
I'm planning on renaming Dai Viet Vietnam after I finish conquering what was the Khmer Empire. Also I'm planning on settling the island of Sumatra, as my empire (including former Khmer lands) stretches all the way to the Kra peninsula. This would mean that Sumatra does not fit either definitions of a colony (as it is seperated by only a thin strait). So does this mean am I allowed to go ahead with settling Sumatra?

Yank 21:41, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Most of Sumatra is part of either Aceh, Malacca, or some other sultanate. It's been pretty well settled by now. BoredMatt 21:50, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

That should be okay, if the strait to which you are referring is the Strait of Malacca. but try not to post too many "Dai Viet pwns xxx with firearms." I left a message on your talk page though, saying we need to Southeast Asia. To exactly what extent do you propose your country to expand? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:54, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I've conquered both the Champa nation and the divided remnants of the Khmer Empire (which I had die around the same time as in OTL due to it not even being mentioned in the states list). This is the extent of my plans for expansion. In terms of OTL nations I conquered Vietnam, Cambodia plus parts of Laos, Thailand, Burma and Malaysia. To make it fair I'm going to spend a few turns "digesting" my conquests.

Yank 02:59, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for Southeast Asia. I have lots of expansion into Tibet, but of course I need to have a reasonable distance around my capital at Pegu. Kay? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 04:43, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I would like a physical land connection with my territory in the Kra peninsula. I would like most of the former Khmer territory, as I was the one to actually fight the former Khmers for it.

--Yank 05:09, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

The former Khmer territory is roughly correspondent to present-day Cambodia. OTL present-day Thailand is under the control of Ayutthaya (Siam), Lanna (Chiangmai) and Sukhothai. The Khmer Empire lost much of its area to Ayutthaya. I'll give you a land route as long as I can have Krungthep. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:21, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

As what? A Hong Kong-esque enclave? If so, then my empire land connection has to be wider to prevent the enclave from severing it.

Yank 22:52, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bangkok is sort of inland, but it would make your land connection kind of small. I thought of an idea. We could create a temporary free-travel state co-ruled by our rulers, similar to Andorra. Let's call it the Kingdom of Singburi, co-vassal of our countries. It would take the role of a buffer state and no-man's land, and as long as we can avoid war it should maintain intact. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:18, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I accept the proposal for the Kingdom of Singburi. I'd even be open to it becoming another player nation.

96.63.34.186 03:54, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

My fleet is still in Mamluk territory. I could have Vietnamese traders discover the canal and help the English and the Mamuks. The thing is should I?

--96.63.34.186 03:48, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Cool. I'd rather not grant Singburi idependence, becayse if it turns against us, we're both screwed. I guess we could assist the British so the British don't have a monopoly. I need to recover from the war first, then claim my Sri Lanka colony. After that I'll send my fleets west. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:47, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

So when are you going to update the map? You still haven't included either the Kra peninsula or Sumatra. And I wouldn't worry about Singburri. We'd make it perfectly clear that if they rebel, they're the ones who are screwed.

96.63.34.186 18:06, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Singburi couldn't be nominally independent because it is regulated by both our countries. In maybe 10 years I will go forth and take Bangkok and Siam. Whenever you want, be it before 10 years or after, you can additionally claim Siam. We'll work out the partition, and create the Kingdom of Singburi to avoid war. I need to take a break from expansion first though. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:57, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

I have Ayuthaya fragmented. No one should be able to take the great kingdom over completely in one turn. Disputes should eventually create Singburi, but once I get ahold of Krungthep. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:54, February 15, 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to know some good Vietnamese names for my colonies.

Yank 18:31, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

A question
Would Genoa taking control of Corsica as a territory count as a colony? I mean territory like Genoa getting all tax money, and ensuring it's protection. Kind of like OTL Puerto Rico to the USA. Grazie per l'aiuto, Cloudslayer 06:26, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

No, it doesn't count as a colony. Well it kinda is but it's close enough not to be subject to the rules of this game. You could probably get away with as far as Crete or Gibraltar. By colony I mean no cultural connections if that makes sense. Like if you went as far as Cappadocia. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 06:57, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Am I still allowed to join in, or is it to late? -Sunkist- 17:35, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's never too late. By all means, pick a country, as long as it existed in 1435. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:39, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Prehaps the Old Swiss Confederacy? -Sunkist- 17:50, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Pick one canton of the Confederacy and use your first turn to completely unite the Confederacy. Then you should be good. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:07, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Uri, Schwyz, and Unterwalden were all kinda already in a union for economic and local reason when they signed the Federal Charter of 1291, could I be all three of them? -Sunkist- 18:09, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Use your first turn to insert a common supra-cantonal government and then yes. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:51, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Burgundy
Hello, everyone! My name's Sir Spart Sparklbox (SSS for short), and I'm taking over Burgundy, with Woogers' permission. I new at this, so I still have to get used to some things, but I'll try to do my best. --SSS-(Contact) 01:04, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

From the main page
Ok, I'm getting sick of seeing discussions on the main pages of map games. Thats what the talk page is for. Single annotations pointing out errors are one thing, full blown discussions are another. Oerwinde 20:33, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

1432

 * What Muslims? This is 1432.
 * What do you mean? Islam was started in the 9th century.The Crusades have already happened against Muslims in the 12th century-13th.
 * The Muslims no longer have an organized state? They have several factions. They have no caliphs. They're split between the Ottomans which are already taken, the Mamluks likewise, the Mongols likewise, and parts of South and Southeast Asia and Africa. They're not going to randomly send explorers to America, and if they could you would have to discuss with the other Muslim countries, and you would have to pick a specific country to control…
 * Islam started in the SEVENTH century, not in the Ninth.
 * Oh you're the Mamluks… This is why it's a good idea to include your country name in posts. And log in.
 * Am I allowed to start annexing the Phillipines as Dai Viet?
 * No. Pick a small area to start with, and you can colonize as early as 1434. You can't expand your colony past 150 sq mi until 1500.
 * As My post above said, it's just an outpost. Like what Japan is doing in Kamkatchka (though I fail to understand why Japan is more interested in Kamkatchka than the nearby islands of Hokaido or Sakhain). 
 * My colony is in India....'

The Ottoman Empire summon's a large army of over 100,000 to ivade and wipe out the Timurid's. The invasion is successful, with the Ottoman's taking over Baghdad, and expanding their borders all the way to Afghanistan.
 * @Japan I think he meant Joseon. Also follow the UTC guidelines and don't post until UTC 0:00. It's a measure to keep the game from going out of control and burning out. Also you're facing the Ainus, so it can't take one turn. @DaiViet Well by the word annex I assumed you meant administer from your capital city as a colony. Again, 1434, 150 mi kthx.
 * That's probably the most implausible thing I've heard in this map game. The Timurids are currently in their glory.
 * Yes You would have to: 1: Completely wipe out both the Golden Horde and the Mamluk Sultanate, and 2: Get your army of 100,000 to go through the entire Arabian Desert and, 3: the Timurids are in their glory, so you would have to defeat 3 major powers.
 * Agreed. Makes no sense, and would take about 20 years at least.

1435

 * About the map, England invanded Ireland and Wales, so put it on the map.
 * Any player can edit the map at any time. I just do it for everyone's convenience.
 * As you know, my paint program blends the colors, making maps look really bad.
 * That's strange. Usually that only happens in .jpg files. If not, try downloading the Gimp here.
 * I'm sorry, but im not going to download random things onto the computer. Thanks for updating the map

1439

 * Korea invented that in the 1200s!!
 * China makes claims of having invented it earlier. Probably the most common Chinese-Korean argument which I'm not going to get into.


 * I'm tired of this developments. They were all done hundreds of years after what you're writing. STOP THE IMPLAUSIBILITY.
 * I let it slide because the pharaohs had been working on it for thousands of years. So as long as he had permission from the Mamluks, it should be okay. China and Korea both have movable types already by OTL. But rest assured I have a plan for dealing with implausibility, which will be effective next turn.
 * Sorry, If you want me to I could extend the time its going to take to build the canal. How about 20-25 years?
 * Please do that, but I was more reffering by Japan who is developing a bunch of things either two hundred years after or four hundred before. Whoever has Japan has to study more about scientific development history.
 * Sorry, I was thinking about a Gutenburg press. Anyway, further physical discoveries are made. Korea, I'm sorry

1441

 * Whoah those are nowhere near each other. Like 2,000 miles apart. Not to mention the cultural differences between the Hindu Tenjikuminato and Muslim Pakistan. They would not be happy with Shintō control. Hindus might adapt but Muslims would be bitter.
 * I know--but trade has currency. The Indus River Valley port hasn't yet spread Shinto culture--this rule is informal. Where economics change, culture adjusts.


 * But the relations already exist with Castile, don't they?
 * It's more like a "re-establishing" of relations, but in good terms. I've just seceded from it, so I want to be sure I can have an ally as important as Castille.

1446

 * Chi Xiōngshǒu translates to Crimson Assassin in Chinese. I had to do that.
 * I think xiongshou makes sense but I don't think chi is a legit surname. You mean jī?
 * I think that Chi Xiōngshǒu refers to a group of Chinese assassins/spies, rather than an individual. So basically a medieval CIA or KGB.
 * Triads lol.


 * Let me remind you that Vietnam has owned the entire island of Sumatra since 1441.
 * I can't count it as normal expansion, it would have to be a colony on the following grounds: 1) incontiguity, because you don't own any Malay areas, 2) cultural, there are very few if any cultural similarities which implies that Vietnam views its culture as in a sense "better" than that of Sumatra, 3) reason for conquering, the only reasons are strategic and or economic, rather than normal political, cultural, or defence reasons, 4) politics, the island is not ruled by the same laws as the rest of the empire. Therefore it is a colony which means you are entitled to a small settlement until 1500. It would change if you conquered the area in between.
 * Hold on. Did you not read what I wrote in 1441? I conquered the entire freaking island! I didn't just set up a tiny outpost. How many times to I have to repeat it before it sticks? I only gave laws permitting Islam so that there wouldn't be an uprising. And I don't think Sumatra qualifies for either of the distance requirements to be a colony.

1447

 * Hey could you make a map with Joseon's expansion into Russia in it?
 * 1000th edit on pages! Sorry just had to do it :)
 * You no have Paint?
 * No I do, but it's been going crappy on me today. 
 * I wouldn't know what expansion you want. I could do it for you but it would be a lot better if you do it yourself. I could provide a blank map if you want.
 * Actually, I'm on a different computer right now, I'm going to try it.
 * Please observe the conventions that say we do a map once every five years. I have ability to do one every day, but it would detract from my school work. Also, please use naming conventions… When you said map I thought you wanted a small map of only Korea. I will add your Russian territory on the next map which will come at 7:00 PM EST on 18 Feb, 2011.


 * Càm ơn anh for the ethnocentrism… The Sumatrans actually had a pretty advanced states… Also I will say again, you cannot have Sumatra. You can have your colony, and you may begin expanding in 1500. No arguments until you conquer the peninsular Malays.

1452

 * In OTL, There was a country called Kingdom of Bosnia which existed until 1463. It exists in the game?
 * Yes

1453

 * Uhh, Japan did support the pirates IRL. That really pissed Joseon off IRL too.
 * Yes, but this is decades after the game started...You say we supported them for decades. 
 * Yes, you did. While you might have not have known about it, the Japanese government provided the pirates with ports, supplies, weapons, food, even men sometimes.
 * I do know about it--we changed the policy, it's 33 years after the game started
 * Piracy constitutes a turn. So if it wasn't a turn, it didn't happen. But that doesn't mean he didn't change his policy. This policy goes both ways: if you forget an OTL historical event during your turn, you forfeit it.

1454

 * Dissimilar religions don't combine well. Look at Islam and Hinduism in India. Maybe it would make more sense for it to be a monotheistic religion similar to Christianity.
 * Okay, sure


 * Sorry I gotta do it. I'm willing to negotiate on the talk page though.
 * Independence? Thirty years?! Please, let's negotiate. I think this is too much.

1455

 * No ports yet. Ports are colonies. Were ports founded the same year Columbus came back in OTL?
 * The ports I've been creating are more bases to rest and help feed Vietnam's traders. All the Vietnamese want is to makes sure that their merchants make it to the Aztec Empire and back alive. Besides, I've been sure to keep them within the size requirements.
 * I agree that they are less than colonies. However, what you talk about didn't start happening until the same time as colonies. Look at Dejima or Macao, they weren't formed until the mid-1500s. By all means trade with the Aztecs, but if this is going to be a potential colony or Dejima-style, just wait. I'm hoping to open up colonization by 1470-ish. Just wait. What you can do is gain a thorough knowledge of the Aztec coast.

1499

 * if i understood the rules well, you can have two colonies at once and only make a new colony 50 years after you first, or one at each 50 years?
 * Three.
 * Up to seven colonies at once. Your first colony is a free colony, and could have been made before 1465. The second and third could be made at any time after 1465. Your fourth colony has to be 50 years or more after your second colony, and your fifth colony has to be 50 years or more after your third colony. Your sixth has to be 50 years after your fourth. Seventh comes fifty years after fifth. If you want more, you have to grant colonies independence or give them away, but independence is only after 1776. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:12, April 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * This means that i can make a new colony now?

Moderators

 * I'm not sure that Cosman, even though he's the creator, should be a mod. He's been showing severe implausibility as his nation, Japan, and I think that even though he's the creator, he should only be an assisstant until we can determind that he is a plausible, rational person. Also, then what can the assisstant moderator do? PitaKang 22:10, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. It's a difficult question, because from a legal perspective, we accepted him as crewtor by signing up. However, let's just ask him to stop I guess. Assistant moderators do anything except edit rules, roll back edits. They can suggest mod actions but have to be approved. They can edit maps on a regular basis (normal people can only edit their own country), add members, etc. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 15:37, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking, would it be useful to have a mod page for a game? There the mods can decide on certain issues without clogging up the talk page or the main page.Roguejedi 23:27, February 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey DK, I think Cosman should not be a mod for these reasons:


 * 1) Displays severe implausibility on map games, including this one


 * 1) He's only been here since June, but has only made 56 edits


 * 1) Has no active TLs, only plays Map Games


 * 1) Seems to not know some basics on History and Science
 * 2) Is not active very much

Thanks! Here are my reasons. Please respond ASAP. PitaKang 01:29, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Fedelede 01:30, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I agree Roguejedi 18:55, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I have to say that I'm not very experienced here, so I agree that I need to not be a mod (this is Cosman). Just don't impose "rocks fall everyone dies" 66.235.60.26 06:56, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't meaning to do that, I was just asking for you to revert some of your edits, and wait until you're allowed to colonize. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 07:03, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Joining
Is is ok to join after the game has already started? If I can't play another state, then could I play as the Barbarians (to attack and destroy peaceful civilizations)???

68.93.193.252 01:07, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

You can always join. Create a user account first, though. Pick any country in 1451 that is not taken. Please observe the rules, and try to be peaceful if you can. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:45, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

May I join as an Amerind civilisation? Mumby 22:32, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I appreciate your interest. There's the Incas, there are three civilizations in the Amazon (Onguayal, Manoa and Tapajoso), or you could create another state out of tribes. The last one would be more difficult because you literally have to start as one tribe and unite. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:50, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

California Outpost/New Vietnam
I'm thinking about making my California outpost into an independant country by virtue of neglect. Can I have another post for writing about it?

96.63.34.186 01:21, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer if you wouldn't. The rules say that you can't have colonies until 1500, and they can't get independence until 1776. What I suggest you do is wait until about 1465 (that's when I'm allowing colonies for people who actually participate in the game), turn it into a colony, and then you will have an extra post. If you do something major in your own country, all you can do is build small buildings and add settlements. But if you do something minor, you can also do tiny and I mean tiny expansion. I take it you've read the rules, correct? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:35, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

War
Okay, so it appears we have our first real conflict between players. Japan vs. Brandenburg. So I have a rough outline of how we determine the outcome. It will be by points. The proportion of points will determine who keeps what territory. For example, Portugal and Nepal go to war (random example). Portugal has 5 points and Nepal has 40. Thus, it is Nepal's victory. Since Portugal got only 5/45 total points, that means it will lose 35/45 (the total number of points minus twice that much) of its territory. Note that if someone invades another country and loses, the defenders do not get to annex the attackers' territory unless it is nearby. If a country is victorious over a colony, it needs to take over 50% of that country's colony, which may be compounded over multiple wars as long as the wars occur within a hundred years. The formula makes more sense once you see how it works. Points will be awarded as follows. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:12, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground (capital is on higher ground than fought-over territory by at least 300m): 2

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Multiply

 * times 2/3 (country has vassals or is in personal union with another country)
 * times 1.5 (country is in civil disarray)

Discussion
Everyone okay with the rules? They should apply until we get into global wars. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:31, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Japan

 * Location: 1 (on the other side of the world)
 * Belligerents: 6 (Joseon, Japan)
 * Greater Population: 2
 * Motive: 5 (political)
 * Participation: 10
 * Ownership: 2 (7 Years)
 * Chance: 5 (see below)
 * Expansion: -5

Time of declaration of war: 2:27:33 UTC —2*2*7*3*3=252

User:Zagoria's edit count at the time: 9

252/9=2800%

2800*pi=8796.45943… > 5 pts

Total points: 1+6+2+5+10+5+5-5=

29 points

Brandenburg

 * Location: 4 (next to location of war)
 * Belligerents: 6 (Kalmars, Brandenburg)
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9 (see below)
 * Expansion: 0

Time of acknowledgment of war: 20:35:48 —2*3*5*4*8=960

User:Cosman246's edit count at the time: 52

960/52=1846.15384615385…%

1846.15384615385*pi=57.99863…

Total points: 4+6+1+10+10+9+0=

40 points

Result
Brandenburg Victory: Japan gives 31.88% (2px) of territory in Doitsuchihou to Brandenburg.

<small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:44, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
Pretty neat, but what about people like me, with 3,000 edits? Then it’s not fair, and besides, later, it will get to a point when everyone will be less than one. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 01:13, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

If you're less than one, you take the reciprocal. So if someone gets 0.0039481, it becomes 253.286… When you multiply by pi, it no longer matters. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:20, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Phillipine Compromise
What do you think of this?

Yank 01:06, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I like it! PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 16:27, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Rollback
I rolled back Lx's last series of edits, as in most of them he actually screwed your layout up, quite badly, may I add. Thought I'd leave a note~ Lordganon 12:31, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

New Ideas
Well, starting in 1500, I had a couple of ideas:

1) We use a larger map showing every country in the world.

2) In order to colonize or declare war, you have to have articles on your colonies and countries, and articles on each war.

3) Posts have to be longer than simply "France expands Indochina by 3*576 sq km."

Ideas? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:33, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

lxCaucassus
I think we need to keep an eye on LxCaucassus. Ever since he started posting this map game has gone down the toilet. His posts are long, droning, misspelled pieces of pro-Russia wank. I think we may need to consider banning him.

Yank 01:32, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

I would, but really there is no explicit reason to ban him without turning this into an autocracy. I'm excusing the wanking for a little while, because he joined late. But I'll leave him a note telling him to punctuate and spell correctly. Again, I would, but the grounds are too subtle to convict. However, he has incorporated history into his post rather than the usual "x invades x." <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:20, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

Lx has started to expand his colonies by 10px per turn! I seriously doubt that is within the limit set by the rules.

Yank 15:46, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

It's allowed. See 1500, I posted an update, because the map is about 10 times larger. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:53, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

You saw his posts? he is expanding his colonies 25 px per turn now.and he has only two colonies, when the maximum permitted is 10 px. go see the external territories page for this.Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:00, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I am roling 0.5 of a turn from my main nation, in the rules it says that you increase colony number by 2 if this happens, doing either continue statements or constructions of buildings in the capital or having the 0.5 turn for a personal union rolled over for the colonies.LxCaucassus 15:34, April 19, 2011 (UTC)lxCaucassus

Where this is in the rules?the only way that 25 px would make sense is in the actual map.in the 1000-something px map (original resolution), that i, at least use for reference, you would be able to take over the island of Newfoundland in only 4 years at this rate.in the 4000-something px map (the current), these 25 px would be equivalent to approximately 6 px in the 1000-something px map.Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:04, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I am using the 400-something pixel map... and here is the quote from the 1500 post allowing me to add my colony number by 2(in Italics): '''New rules: For a major turn in home country: Maximum total expansion if you have one colony: 1px. Ma(ximum if you have two colonies: 10px. Maximum if you have three colonies: 16px. Maximum if yo'u have four colonies: 25px. Maximum if you have five colonies: 31px. Maximum if you have six colonies: 40px.' Maximum if you have seven colonies: 46px. Maximum if you have eight colonies: 55px. Maximum if you have nine colonies: 61px. Maximum if you have ten colonies: 70px. Maximum if you have eleven colonies: 76px. Add two colonies if you have a minor turn in your main country (note the maximum is seven, but up to two vassal states count). Write pixels as x*50 sq km now.LxCaucassus 11:08, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

A "minor turn" allowing you to gain 25 px? Also, how are you able to recover from famine so quickly? Cosman246 01:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Once again, I think we need to keep an eye on Lx. Not only do his posts show a lack of attention to his spelling, but they have lost the weak grasp on historical accuracy that allowed them to squeak by. If it were possible to eject someone from the map game I would, as his wankish posts irritate me to no end.

Yank 01:31, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Leave him a message on his talk page. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:06, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

New Map
When somebody will post a new key and a new map?Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:55, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

I will. I just haven't been on my computer. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:17, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

Mod
You still accept applying for moderators?Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:35, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not DK, so I can't answer for him, but I'd support it. Cosman246 20:51, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. You're a good candidate, I'll add you when I get home. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:26, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

New Structure
This won't take effect until we approach modern times, but I was thinking that when we approach the present day, we go into more detail with our posts--monthly, for example. Furthermore, I was thinking that as more sections are completed, we start converting the older parts into a regular timeline. Once it's done, it will all be a regular timeline. What do you think? Cosman246 20:51, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

JSimCox
JSimCox has been traced by wikia and shown to be a sockpuppet of Rebelsoldier, and thus blocked permanently. Just so the users of this game know. Lordganon 12:52, April 26, 2011 (UTC)

Joining
Hey guys! I was reading through Alternate History websites and stumbled upon Map Games! I'm really interested in playing, and I was wondering if this particular map is still active? I see France has an opening, mind if I join them? Also, is there a page that can help out new people like me? I've read and understand the rules, and I can piece together how to play pretty well from that, I was just curious if there was something more in depth, such as what exactly I can do each turn, for this game as well as future map games. Thanks for hopefully letting me play! JonAllenMichael 03:26, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

By all means, sign your name! I think your best resource would be to read through earlier turns. France in this game was annexed by Castile in earlier turns, and then recently declared independence. Its player was blocked, so it fell into civil war, where it is now. Glad to have you! <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:44, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you kind sir! Forgive me if I mess up in the beginning by doing too much. Take it easy on me since it's my first time! JonAllenMichael 03:59, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and one further question. When I I join in 1527, do I get all of the French territory, or am I only going to get a certain amount, and then must expand into France proper? Clearly France won't be magically stabalized after years of civil strife, I figured I'd take a few years to stabalize and consolidate power, I just didn't know exactly what territory is mine technically, starting in 1527? I hope this was clear! 65.190.44.64 09:47, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

What you can do is start as a warring faction of France, take control of the government, and work on consolidating power. All the territory is yours, but you have a varying degree of control in different areas. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Southern France
So... I know I'm a new guy and I really don't want to be known as the guy to complain... as honestly I'm not. However, I was just curious as to the veracity of Naples pushing up through all of the rest of the Italian Pennisula and into Southern France in a year. To my knowledge, the cities in Northern Italy were some of the most heavily fortified cities in Europe. Also, you would have the Alps to contend with. Could an Italian army that had been on the pause for 17 years after conquering Rome have smashed through the multitude of forts, marched swiftly through the alps, and then started invading southern France, all in one year? The Americans and British combined couldn't even do that in World War II... and the Nazi's considered the Italian Front as their least important Front. Yes, I know you could say that the army prepped for 17 years, but also there would be some kind of alternate unification movement in the North since Naples took Rome. Rome is the Italian "holy city" and just by suggesting that you would want to invade and take it, the other provinces would probably be like "hey... they just took Rome and own the rest of Italy... maybe we should start coming together in a patchwork of alliances or at the very least start fortifying our towns even more than they already were." Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll gladly accept any arbitrated decision, I just felt like this needed to be pointed out. JonAllenMichael 19:22, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

What year is this? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:35, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

1529 ^^ I was just inferring that a much more mobile army took an extremely long time to push through, I was just curious how an army which is much slower would accomplish such a feat? Like I said... correct me if I'm wrong haha. I'm not trying to be a jerk. :( 65.190.44.64 04:55, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't notice that. I reverted the post. Highly implausible. It might be plausible if they spent 20 years saying only "Naples prepares an invasion of the Italian Peninsula" over and over every turn. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:28, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

England
England is inactive and up for grabs, right? Also, if Brandenburg conquered it and set up a puppet government would it be considered a colony? Zagoria 15:09, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. That would work, but keep in mind your expansion is still monitored at 1/2 rate because it is an "organized" area. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:23, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

May 25, 1535
Hey, whos the Emperor of the Timurid Empire? I'm the King of the Vijayanagara Empire and I want to call an alliance on May 25, 1535 after I defeat the Maratha Kingdom. Arceus The God of Pokemon 17:07, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thant.But he's inactive.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:25, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Timurid Empire is now a part of the Ottoman Empire. Feel free to negotiate with User:StarkBlack. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:48, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of Rajasthan
By the Treaty of Rajasthan, if Hanthawaddy, Japan and Vietnam are defeated, they must sign The Treaty of Rajasthan.

''By the Treaty of Rajasthan, if the opposing forces are defeated, they must sign this Treaty and never invade India again, while giving 10% of each country's territory under the control of "The Indo-European Alliance". If The Indo-European Alliance is defeated, Hanthawaddy, Japan and Vietnam controls the entire East, West, North, and Central India, which includes Kashmir, Rajasthan, Gujarat, West Bengal, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh and several miniature states. They are not given access to Southern India (Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra and Andra Pradesh).''

Signatures:

Indo-European Alliance - Foreign Invaders -  ADVICE 
 * 1) Vijayanagara Empire - Arceus The God of Pokemon 16:42, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) Mughal Empire - No signature
 * 3) Rajputs - No signature
 * 4) Russia -
 * 5) Portugal -
 * 6) France - No signature
 * 7) Ottoman Empire -
 * 1) Hanthawaddy -
 * 2) Japan -
 * 3) Vietnam
 * 4) Joseon

It is recommended that the Foreign Invaders reatreat from India permanently, as they will get crushed as well as lose 10% of their territories. However, if they are confident of their military strengths, they may attack though the stakes are high. If they attack and defeat the Alliance, its a major gain for them as they get access to several territories in one go, though they have to fight 3-7 armies for it.

If the Foreign Invaders do not sign this Treaty, they must leave India and never come back. (unsigned)

Technically you can't force anyone to follow the treaty, but I don't mind it being put in place. Just to dispel any misunderstanding, the Rajputs are a small depopulated group of kingdoms on the intersection of Tibet and India. The main Indian country is the Mughals, which just came to power a few years ago, but otherwise India is still split in several countries. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:22, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember posting anything stating that Vietnam has invaded India. I'm fairly certain I've reached the limit for my colonies at the moment.

Yank 03:44, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Idk, I requested help in conquering the Rajputs from Japan and Vietnam just because of geographic location, I think he took this to mean you were also invading. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:53, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Even if Hanthawaddy and Japan defeat Vijayanagara Empire, Russians, Rajputs and maybe the Ottomans, they still have to battle: Shuj-au-Dullah, Nawab of Oudh, Siraj-au-Dullah, Nawab of Bengal and Mir Jafar, Nawab of Bihar (who are the Daullah Armies, one combined Empire, controlling East India completely) and the Mughal Emperor Akbar. That'd be practically quite difficult to handle whole North India. If they wish to expand in Central, they have to defeat the Deccan Sultanate (Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat and Jharkhand) and King of Golconda, (Andra Pradesh) and the active power of the Vijayanagara Empire. So, let me get this straight, Hanthawaddy is invading North-Western India, with the help of the Vietnamese and Japanese armies? Arceus The God of Pokemon 16:06, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I still have yet to give any official support to the conflict in India. If there are any Vietnamese soldiers going to fight in India, they are doing so under their own initiative. In other worders they are volunteers.

Yank 16:31, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

How can your own soldiers fight voluntarily? You control them! If you support Hanthawaddy, we shall become Arch Enemies! Arceus The God of Pokemon 17:12, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

If I don't write anything about the conflict, Vietnam officially does nothing about the conflict.

Yank 13:14, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

You can't control blank nations like that, the only blank nation involved in this are the Rajputs kingdoms or if anything, a Rajput alliance. I have no intention of invading all of India. I am just invading northern Indian kingdoms with the support of at least Joseon. Also, seriously, stop being so immature about this arch-enemy stuff. The northern Indians don't even speak your same language family, don't necessarily have the same religion, a totally different culture, and are thousands of miles away. And I know for sure in the 16th century the concept of a unified Indian subcontinent was not considered. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:23, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Can I just mention that the russians refuse Russians and WILL NOT attack JAPANESE troops unless Vijayanagara gives an excelent and undesputable reason(if they are a direct threat to the nation of Vijayanagara, if the Japanese are at the borders of Vijayanagara and are ready to attack, unless Vijayanagara were the ones declaring war. IF the reason is that the Asians are invading north indian states, no support at all will be provided, because by the words of Boyar Shuisky "It is none of your concern, you should be wanting to conquer them yourself"). Members of the japanese royalty have russian blood, and the Japanese-Russian alliance outdates the Vijayanagaran alliance. However russia is perfectly fine in attacking vietnam and hathawady, wich they have no prior agreements, but will provide no support if japan is in the war. IN Russia's mind, japanese are not "foreign invaders"LxCaucassus 20:33, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, Mr. DetectiveKenny, but I'm an Indian by blood, speaks Hindi, same religion as the Rajputs (Hindus) and besides, this is an alternate timeline in which anything can happen. Its not necessary Britsh has to invade India or India has to be unified (mind you, under Emperor Akbar-Bashah, they were unified) or whatever. But still, I do not want my mother land invaded by Hanthawaddians (where are they from?) or the Japanese. Arceus The God of Pokemon 11:19, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article says that they came from Burma

Yank 13:14, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

I fully realize that I am not playing this game, but it is plainly obvious to me that Arceus, despite his choice of state, is pretty much doing this because he doesn't want his "homeland" to be conquered by people he considers to be "foreign." Not only that, but he missed Kenny's point entirely.

Kenny, I do realize that this is indeed your game and I have no mod control over it at all. But, given all things, I must say this: Arceus, cut it out - its alternate history, which means things will happen that you don't like, so get over it. Kenny, if you have any problems with him because of his bias past this post, tell me and it will be dealt with, if you catch my drift.

Lordganon 13:35, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

I would have to agree with you LG. I really don't have many limits on diplomacy in-game, because after all, it is your country. But this is sort of ridiculous. I understand if you want an alliance with the Rajputs or Mughals or something. However, bringing foreign elements, such as your own homeland, into this can become extremely implausible. By this I mean instantly becoming arch-enemy and assembling an alliance against any country that attacks India is compromising the plausibility of this game. By all means, funnel support in, but don't do it just to protect your homeland, find a legotimate motive. Everyone has a homeland, I have multiple homelands on three or four continents, and there's potential for butthurt, so just keep cultural ties out of this. And yes, Hanthawaddy is a Mon state in OTL Burma from around the city of Pegu (aka Hannthawaddy Pegu) a few miles from Yangon. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:16, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Are we going to settle this war with your algorithm? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 03:47, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Yes unless there are any objections. Once I get Filemaker Pro downloaded on my computer I can get it done effortlessly lol. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:18, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me like he's not stopping with it, Kenny. It's like all of India, however much it makes no sense, is all of a sudden behind him, and allying with him, still. And I have to say too that this new guy appearing is touch too convenient for him - guess we'll see what wikia has to say on that one, if you catch my drift. Lordganon 09:19, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Reaching the Pacific
LxCaucassus, that brings up an interesting point, but I would have to say that is extremely implausible to have that kind of expansion. Besides the fact that it's kind of weird the Russians would cut across geographic features like that, that's pretty much impossible to do. If you don't have a good road built, the natives of the area would assume control immediately. If you do have a good road built, like the Trans-Siberian Railroad, it might be a little bit more plausible, but a) it would take a ton of time to build and b) same applies, it is impossible to control something that far. Also, given the latitude, geography, and present technology, the amount of time it would take to travel that length would be close to 8 years one-way for civilians, maybe 3 or 4 for the military or merchants, assuming there is a good road. Seriously, how many OTL countries have a weird panhandle 10000 km long? What I would suggest is take the sea route and create a colony where your desired coastal port is. You can work two-ways then. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:17, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that is probably what i am going to put down as actualy happened, remember the Boyars WANT to reach it, doesn't mean that they will. Anyways, this might change when the tsar comes of age. I will set the date of stable siberian-pacific control to say... 1600 (if only one way, if 2-way 1560) ? sound good

1600 sounds much more reasonable for one-way. Two-way might chop off maybe up to five years, but it would give you a much more solid foundation on the other side, so it might go even faster with the flow of supplies. Colonial expansion doesn't change even if it's on your own continent ;). But make sure to keep on top of it, building roads and settlements as you go along. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:03, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Mughal Empire
Can I take over Mughal Empire? I'm a new player...so? May I?Frieza Sama 07:03, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Mughal Empire
Can I take over Mughal Empire? I'm a new player...so? May I?Frieza Sama 07:04, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes.Welcome to the game.and, be plausible.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:58, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Spain
Is Spain occupied by any other country? If not, I would like to take over the Spanish Empire. Head Chunin 13:51, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Nope, and I'm not a mod but be aware that Spain has been through several years of civil unrest that you are going to have to deal with. Also, and mods correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that you could ramp up your navy, improve your government, and send explorers to India all in one year. :D 65.190.44.64 16:56, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Quite implausible. The most that can be done in this turn is take cotrol of Castile. Btw if the player for Spain is hiding something, they'd best admit it now. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:05, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, if they don't admit it, wikia has already been asked and will tell me for sure in a couple days ;) Lordganon 20:11, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

Quittance
Hi! I'm quitting Prinicpia Moderni and my nation is a blank one. My armies have been stationed at China, so if anyone ever takes pver the empire, please make sure that 10% of their army is in China. However, as a blank nation, my amr ywill still fight against Hanthawaddy. I'm also cutting all alliance with all Nations, and if anyone wishes to conquer my nation, feel free to do so! Thanks a lot! Frieza Sama 07:53, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

P.S: Arceus, I'm not gonna invade china, you cant control it. :P

Arceus The God of Pokemon, Frieza Sama, Head Chunin
IP trace I had wikia run shows them to be the same person, as I - and Kenny, it seems - suspected. All have now been blocked permanently. Deal with this countries as you will. Lordganon 09:20, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

Just in case, can you check to see if the three are connected to User:Alternate History Guy? There are a few similarities that look suspicious. That way we know whether to look out for more AHG clones. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:00, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

I keep reading about this particular person constantly being banned. If I may ask, who is he and why does he just keep coming back? JonAllenMichael 17:25, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

Typical example of a sockpuppeteer. Plays only map games and uses sockpuppets to get more countries. His sockpuppeting was very sloppy, considering he joined his own map game and started posting immediately as both players. He's not the only one, unfortunately. I don't understand what goes on in the minds of sockpuppeteers, but it may have to do with compulsive lying. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:34, May 21, 2011 (UTC)

Done, Kenny. Like I said, feel free to leave notes about this type of thing on my talk page is you suspect something. I really don't look at the talk page of this game of yours that often, lol.

I kinda doubt that they are AHG clones, though I may be wrong there. This guy seems to really have an India fetish, which AHG lacked.

Jon, more or less what Kenny said. Sockpuppeters do it normally because we made them mad by enforcing our rules with the end result of banning them, or to try and gain advantage over everyone else on map games. Only really seen the latter lately, mind - and that's what this is. Call it a combination of greed and anger issues. Makes it worse that they still try to come back - when I look when our perm-blocked guys last logged on - they can do that, just not post - it's normally every day that they try, and we've even had one of them enlist someone else to beg us to drop their ban, for extreme offensive behavior, and let them come back.

Lordganon 02:22, May 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Vhaul claimed to be Indian, AHG claimed to be Irish-Indian. That's partly why I brought it up. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:27, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Wikia trace comes back as the AHG and Arceus accounts being entirely separate. Let me know on my talk page, Kenny, if you have any more suspicions, please. Your game, for some reason, seems to be a magnet for these guys, lol. Lordganon 08:48, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

"Rajput War"
This got pretty screwed up with Arceus' banning, so I'm going to just get this over with using Random.org instead of using the edit time.

Hanthawaddy

 * Location: 4 (next to the location of the war)
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Belligerents: 9 (Hanthawaddy, Joseon, Japan)
 * Greater Population: 2
 * Motive: 5 (political)
 * Participation: 10
 * Ownership: 0 (said country does not rule said area)
 * Chance: 0
 * Military Strength: 2
 * Expansion: -3

Randomly generated number: 0.5810959103 1/0.5810959103 =1.72088632

1.72088632*pi= 5.40632382… = 540.632382% > 3 pts

Total points: 33

Rajputs

 * Location: 5 (at the location of the war)
 * Belligerents: 6 (Rajputs and Mughals)
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6 (see below)
 * Ownership: -5 (said country has ruled said area for 151+ years)
 * Expansion: 0

Randomly generated number: 0.9336931058

1/0.9336931058 = 1.07101573

1.07101573*pi= 3.36469515…=336.469% > 6 pts

No full unity:

32 points*(2/3) = 21.33333 rounds to 21 pts

Result
Mon Victory: Hanthawaddy takes over 11.111% (103 px) of Rajput territory. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:30, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Arecus gave me a bunch of land in southern india

 * Arecus gave me 2 coastal provinces in exchange for his alliance. I have no idea how large they are and would like to know so I can add them to my indian colony here are their names:

<p style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">Travancore and Kanyakumari, I presume they are on the east coast so mods please give me an approx. ammount of pixels that they take up so i can add it to the external possesions page, ill look up maps of them and i am asking to pixelize. feel free to change the size of the area given. these provinces seem to be very big, approx 500 px., but im not sure.LxCaucassus 18:17, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

It would be against the rules to gain giant expansion from treaty like that. Also, I don't think they are provinces, the way he's been at it he's tended to use modern Indian provinces as his units of division. What he meant was he would cede you the towns and maybe a little bit of land around it, which is perfectly fine. Seeing that you already own Kanyakumari (which is on the southern tip) I would say 15 pixels (750 sq km) is max for Trivancore (which is on the south-west coast). I'll add it to the map in a few minutes. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:37, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Colonial Confusion
So... I really apologize for being a noob, but I think I might just be intepreting this wrong, but the way I interpret the post in the archives in the year 1500, my maximum colonial expansion since I have 2 colonies is 10px, but in the Rules section, it seems to be saying that my maximum colonial expansion with 2 colonies is 16px. Am I just interpreting this wrong? If you get mad at me for being noobish, will you at least give me credit for my crafty alliteration in the topic title? JonAllenMichael 07:00, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, no problems here, Jon. I wasn't the one who commented on your post lol. If you have two colonies, maximum is 10px, and 25px if you only use a minor turn in your main country. If anything that's my fault. I think I may have made the rules too confusing. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 07:06, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

haha ok, I think I get it now. Well, I hope anyways! JonAllenMichael 10:41, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of the Kola Poluostrov
This Treaty, Signed upon by The Tsardom of all Russias, the Kingdom of Hanthawady and at least 3 observer states and will decide the future of the kola peninsula, its administration, the rights and priviledges of the Mon residents and its judiciary system and how sentances are to be carried out. This treaty will come in effect only and emideately after all parties and a minimum of 3 observer states sign(signature now closed)

The Full Treaty of the Kola Poluostrov anc be found here

Discussion
Should I make this its own article or leave it on the talk page? One more thing, we are missing one signature for observer states to make treaty into effect. (—unsigned)

The article is here, is it ok?

Sould I move it to the the article page permanently(aka delete the Treaty on the talk page and just put a brief description with a link to the article) or should I leave the treaty in both places (-unsigned)

That's up to you. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

will doLxCaucassus 21:54, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

England (again)
I know Brandenburg and England do not share a border, but can they be united in a personal union (ie through marraige)? After all, GB and Hanover did it in OTL...


 * Good idea. It would make a good article. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:49, May 31, 2011 (UTC)

Map Trouble
What on earth is causing the map to glitch like that? And can it be fixed?

Yank 18:29, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry, lol. I forgot to upload the map. I'll get that done within an hour or two. It's done, it just needs to be uploaded. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:41, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

DK! You mean you can type all that on your turn but then you don't have enough time to upload a map!! How dare you!!! Jk, actually I've quite enjoyed your turns, I need to start writing more, I just haven't had much access to wifi, and when I do it's on an open connection that can shutoff at any second. JonAllenMichael 20:14, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Haha. The map usually takes about an hour, which is about 90% multitasking. I guess I just blanked out on uploading it, because it was getting late. I just felt like writing a lot on whaling. You don't really have to write a lot in general. I just don't want to see every day "England expands Hong Kong by 10000 sq km." <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:55, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

Janusary
Is it just me, or is anyone else pissed off at Jausary's obnoxious know-it-all behavior? --Yank 17:22, June 7, 2011 (UTC)

Janusary sends his love! It's hard not to display know-it-all behavior when the world around you act like sheep in a pen. You'd best grow out of it! Best regards. (-unsigned Janusary)


 * That didn't really help, btw. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:01, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Wazir is dead. I'm hoping to catch on. We aim to assimilate.99.30.228.74 19:11, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Give him time, newcomers need time to assimilate. We all know what that feels like. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:20, June 8, 2011 (UTC)

Business
Okay, I've just got a few things I want to take care of:

Hanthawaddy and Vietnam (and Japan, if I haven't already gotten an alliance, though I think I have), China would like an alliance.

China wants a better relationship with Russia.

I would like to apply to become a mod.

CrimsonAssassin 19:33, June 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * I kind of know where you're going this, so basically: alliance is accepted, but I need to keep my investments protected if you know what I mean. Also, we should think about dividing up Tibet. As for modship, I'll promote you to assistant mod but if we're going to think about total modship, I need to see better posts, meaning longer and more detailed, more interesting toread, more thought-through historically. I'm not putting you down, but I know you can do better. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:26, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. China will aid your country in the case of war or other difficulties. Tibet has already been divided up between us a while ago I believe. The posts I'm posting now are unoriginal because that's all I wanted to do. When the time comes, I could right several paragraphs if need be.
 * CrimsonAssassin 23:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * CrimsonAssassin 23:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * CrimsonAssassin 23:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, but not definitively, and a lot of Tibet is still in kingdoms. Also, I don't mind you having a small turn. If all you want to say is "China expands a little in the Inca Empire," you could easily write that in detail. "China expands 500 sq km in the Inca Empire, taking the city of OTL Cajamarca, getting rich minerals such as bronze for weapons. Chinese begin to grow potatoes in the local mountains. On the coast, Chinese-Incan culture begins to appear. The Chinese begin touring at high altitude and find it necessary to drink kuka mati, folk remedy for altitude sickness, to say healthy, leading to its growing popularity among Chinese. Coca leaves are in high demand and many Chinese become addicted. The Chinese also expand slightly north and find a salt flat in OTL Lambayeque which they name Sanjiao Hu, three-pointed lake, after the appearance of tree nearby mountains that rise above the "lakebed." The Chinese gain support among the tribes of its California colony by selling them salt in vast quantities. Work continues on both the northern and southern ports of the colony, in attempt to create a busy connection between the resources of the Incas and the rest of the world. Due to the scarcity of wood, docks are attempted to be constructed as jetties instead of docks, utilizing nearby rock formations. In both ports, both Chinese and Incas intermingle leading to a creole of Chinese and Quechua sometimes called "haihua," sea tongue, due to its eventual adaptation by many Chinese sailors…" I could go on forever, but there's no excuse for a mod to write only one sentence. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:33, June 8, 2011 (UTC)

Ironclads
Ironclads are a type of warship that uses technology from the Industrial Revolution, namely the steam engine. The steam Engine hasn't even been invented, hence, does not exist. The Ironclad warship is heavily reliant on 19th century technology. This is the 16th. Without the base of a stem engine, the entire principle of the ironclad does not make sence(no sails), the technology does not exist yet. Vietnam just popped it right out of the blue. technology 300 years ahead of its time. THe existance of the Ironclads(not Armored warships) does not make sence. Without the Steam Engine IT CAN NOT BE POSSIBLE. It took about 20 years at least to develop the propoltion system AFTER the invention of the Steam engine.(sorry if its a bit ranty, but its true)LxCaucassus 18:48, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't see that. I will allow limited amounts of metal on ships by 1600, but absolutely no use of the word "manufacture" on a national scale will be tolerated until 1750. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:19, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

I only used the name ironclad because it is a ship clad in iron.

Yank 20:26, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

I believe the Korean turtle ships were based on more ancient designs that may or may not have had metal hulls. That was intended as a friendly and potentially useful comment.99.30.228.74 19:15, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to follow technlogy down to the letter? For all we know technology went off into a tangent. Let us not forget that this complaint came from a user who started using a technology (rifling) centuries before it was commonplace. And there have been steam egine designs existing since ancient times. All it would have taken was for a Vietnamese inventor to get one of these designs and improve it.

Yank 20:34, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

The reason we use restraint is to prevent the world into turning into futuristic utopia by present-day. People would be too implausible. Change the word ironclad and manufacturing. I can approve of some technological tangents but most technological tangents involve people inventing stuff earlier to give themselves an advantage. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:09, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

The Diet of Toulouse
The Catholics first propose that the two faiths become one. They demand that any reference or influences to outside religions in the East Asian Church be completely removed from the faith. Also, they demand that the Pope in Rome should be recognized as the final authority on religious matters. Rome however, will listen to any other reforms proposed by the East Asian Church, so long as it doesn't come into conflict with the previous two terms. (p.s.- something just came up, so forgive me if I don't come back for a bit) JonAllenMichael 16:22, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Coming out with demands isn't going to help your case out at all. The influences of the various East Asian cultures (as well as the various local religions) are too deeply ingrained into the East Asian Church to be simply expulged. If the East Asian Church was to rejoin the Catholic Church (and that's a big if) these influences would spread to the rest of the church. That showed that you forgot how adaptive the early Christian church was. At least a third of the Christian traditions we celebrate today, such as Christmas (the date and Christmas trees), were influenced by pagan beliefs. On your other inconsiderate demands:
 * 1) If this is what you call "negotiation" then I'm afraid we will have no part of it. In other words, the East Asian Church will not join the Catholic church.
 * 2) If the East Asian Church will not join the Catholic Church, then I don't see the point in listening to the Pope in for any reason at all. We have Archbishop Nguyen for a leader. We don't need another.

If you actually post these demands then I think that there would be diplomatic repecussions. Relations between France and Vietnam would worsen dramatically and trade between the two nations would either slow or stop completely.

Yank 19:39, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

The Russians are siding with the East Asian Church and is asking them to accept the Russian church and be in full communion with it, as a seperate patriarchate of the same, holy, catholic(universal) and apostolic church.LxCaucassus 20:58, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I'd really prefer to keep the East Asian Church a 100% sovreign institution. I wrote the East Asian Church as an local equivilent of the Anglican Church.

Yank 21:10, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, clearly neither church is going to cave in a theological sense to the other, and that's understandable. Although the Papacy of course wishes to remain supreme in these matters, France is more concerned with keeping order in the South as well as maintaining their strong alliance with Vietnam. The Lords of France suggest theological "spheres". The Catholic Church will remain the state church of France, however they will tolerate and allow France to be a safe haven for the East Asian Church, so long as the alliance with Vietnam stands firm. All France asks in return is to allow the catholics in Vietnam and her colonies the same safe havens. If East Asian church members are persecuted, they will be allowed safe haven in France or her colonies, and if Catholics are persecuted they will be allowed safe haven in Vietnam or her colonies. Will this be a fair offer? JonAllenMichael 22:24, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer that the churches be united (So as to prevent further conflict) but I recognize that the East Asian Church has legitimate demands. I think that is a good plan. I reiterate that religious dissenters from any nation may have safe haven in Brandenburg, England, or their colonies.Zagoria 05:00, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully Vietnam will agree to this as well. Now that the royal crisis has past, the French are in a much better position to put down any potential rebellions, even though we of course would never want to hurt any Vietnamese person ever. I stress again that France has the utmost respect for its closest ally, Vietnam. JonAllenMichael 06:41, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It is a good idea.

Yank 12:41, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Hellenic Republic
Can I take over Greece or is it under the control of the Ottoman Empire? The flaming Quick Fire is here! Talk 07:43, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the map, which you've not done, it should be pretty obvious. Lordganon 07:46, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

StarkBlack has been inactive, which means I can fight for independence, isn't that correct? The flaming Quick Fire is here! Talk 07:55, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

Hmph. Never mind I'll take over Ethiopia. I have the entire Africa to conquer.

Mamluk Sultanate
BlackSkyEmpire has been inactive. Can I wage war with the Mamluk Sultanate and conquer it? (I plan to take control of the entire africa.) The flaming Quick Fire is here!  Talk 08:22, June 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * In your situation, This is impossible. you don't have a littoral, a army big or/well-equipped enough, or even a land border with the Mamluks.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:45, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

Although he hasn't made too many edits, he still comes on periodically and is an esteemed member because he was there at the start of the game. You may declare war but you have to observe the algorithms. But if you want to conquer all of Africa, I don't think this is the right game for you because we observe realism and no country has ever conquered all of Africa, let alone an African country doing so. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:15, June 25, 2011 (UTC)

Moderator?
I was wondering if I could apply for modship? I haven't been on since the beginning, and I have started a fair number of wars, but I believe I write detailed, lengthly posts, so I could be a good candidate. Zagoria 21:27, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I will add you when I get home in a couple days. Altgough I don't believe you've been here since the beginning. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:26, June 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * matter of fact, he himself said that he hasn't been on since the beginning.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:04, June 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I apologize for that. I've been on a busy schedule and am kind of tired.  <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  08:19, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

Peace?
So we've been in peace negotiations for over a year now, I feel like most countries in the OTL would have resumed military campaigning by this point. Shouldn't there be some sort of negotiations before the next year is up?? JonAllenMichael 04:41, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should just have status quo ante bellum.Zagoria 21:29, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, hopefully everyone else will come to some kind of conclusion rather soon. I'm a little worried about Spain anyways now :P JonAllenMichael 04:42, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, nothing like a crazy emporer to throw curveballs at negotiations Roguejedi 23:18, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Colonies
So I recently was given a colony by the Commonwealth, does this mean I can now expand as if I had 3 "natural" colonies? Also, my last colony was established in 1542, does this mean that I can establish another colony in 1592 even though I was just given one? JonAllenMichael 13:39, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, basically. It counts as a natural colony unless you were to incorporate into one of your existing colonies, except the only difference is that the fifty-year rule doesn't apply to that particular colony (although it still applies afterward). Exactly what colony is this? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 16:23, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Brandenburg gave me their colony in Western Africa for helping them to defeat the pretender that rose to the throne of the Commonwealth. So... I can now expand by 18*25 km sq and I can build another colony in 1592, at which point I'll be able to expand by 25*50 sq km?? (-unsigned JonAllenMichael)

Immediately. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:39, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Method for Calculating Pixellage
I found an easy method for calculating the number of pixels for a country without having to do it manually. Simply download ImageJ and the Color Counter plugin which counts the number of pixels of each colour. Open Principia Moderni in ImageJ, and colour each of the colonies a unique colour using the fill tool. Then, go into plugins>color>Color Counter, and find the correct Hexidecimal in the list (you will have to know the Hex, but you can easily find that using a color picker program). The number of pixels should be there. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:10, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

Can I Join?
Can I be Poland, on the list it was empty so I signed up but someone on the last tun said they were Poland, what nation can I be? The Aztecs or Inca could work too though. DeanSims 15:48, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you can.and Let me explain the situation tht you saw;Hungary conquered the Polish part of Poland-Lithuania and transformed it in a vassal state.right after, Russia invaded Lithuania and sparked a civil war there.so, Hungary, Poland and Russia are in verge of war, because Russia claims Poland as theirs.you can join as Poland-Lithuania, but be aware that what exists is only Lithuania, so would be more accurate to change the name.The Maya are already taken (the user is inactive, but he came back for one turn), the Inca are unoccupied but parts of it are being invaded by China.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:24, July 11, 2011 (UTC)