Talk:Capet' Sorrows

This timeline, tentatively called Capet' sorrow concern itself with the fact that France never unified.

One Possibility for this state of affair is for a more bloody "Fronde" that lead to the disintegration of the kingdom. Another one is that there is no central POD but rather a series of them whereby each time the king of France might have gained territories, it failed. Whatever the POD, I would like it/them to be a few centuries ago to allow for the devolepment of distinct cultures.

Follow a list of possible countries that might exist based on their cultural distinctiveness and/or historical autonomy:

- Normandy {C - Brittony {C - Euskadi {C - Occitany {C - Burgandy

Not sure yet what to do with the interior, I don't want to end up with a reduced "France in all but name" so I might have to find other ones or simply divide the left over amongst the other countries above.

The new countries' borders would not have to be limited to modern day France OTL nor would all the territories be part of a successor state (Savoy, corsica and avignon could be italian for example). Basicaly, the current outline of France OTL should be hard to place on a map of that world.

In terms of ramifications, if one go with the Fronde option, we probably would have a power vacuum which some of its neighbours might want to take advantage of. The successor states would, in any cases, be only second class countries at best (though this might change in time). They might ally themselves with other countries which could mean conflicts and the eventual annextion of some of them.

If we go with the second option, which I prefer, there would not be any sudden shock and the effects would be spread out more over time. Some might become big players (euskadie, Normandy and Brittony could become naval powers with each their own colonies in North america and elsewhere) While others might marry into other noble families giving rise to different Dynasties (think of the Bourbon *here*).

Any comments or suggestion is more then welcome. {C --Marcpasquin 16:56, July 11, 2011 (UTC)

If you're going to have an Occitania, Avignon would likely be part of that. Savoie and Nice would likely remain italian, resulting in a longer lasting Duchy of Savoy. Alsace-Lorraine may remain independent or become part of a German nation. Without the might of France to defend it, Britain would likely conquer Brittany and Normandy at some point. With colonization you might even see an anglo culture developing there. Though modern day would likely see it independent. That route Normandy and Brittany would likely be a single nation.

Occitania could possibly be a major power depending on the route Aragon goes. Without a unified french state, Occitania would likely develop closer relations with similar laguage groups such as the catalan. We might see a unified Occitania-Crown of Aragon and a major mediterranean/colonial power.Oerwinde 18:13, July 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * About your comments:
 * - Avignon: while it was physicaly within what would be Occitany, it belonged to the papal state *here* whch is why I mentioned it as possibly belonging to italy (assuming a resurgiamento). probably something to determine later
 * - Savoie and Nice: Agree with you
 * - Alsace-Lorraine: Could also be part of Burgundy
 * - Brittany: Must admit I would like to have it independent but its not really based on anything concrete so, yes, it might have been conquered by someone.
 * - Normandy: If the POD is early enough, there might not be any need for a conquest: the Norman would still be in control of both england and normandy if say, the angevin won or least made a good peace after the 100 years war thus retaining their both england and normandy without owing fealty to the kg of france.
 * - Occitania-Aragon: maybe, although just speaking related languages don't, by themselves, lead to political unions. Do you know of any specific historical momment when a link between the 2 entities might have happened ?
 * --Marcpasquin 22:41, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Avignon: Unless the Papal State exists in modern day, it would likely eventually be absorbed by Occitania. Especially if nationalism plays the part it does in OTL, as it would be entirely surrounded by Occitania.
 * Alsace-Lorraine/Burgundy: Burgundy could also be a major power if its control of the Netherlands persists as well.
 * Brittany/Normandy: I thought of that as well after I had posted. Now this is interesting. William the conqueror put his capital in England so he could be king, and was stripped of his rights to Normandy by the french king. With no french king would he have kept his base of power in Normandy and attempt to spread his influence in France, or stay in England? Staying in england, and no claim to a french crown, Brittany may be left alone.
 * Occitania-Aragon: I actually do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade#French_royal_intervention . During the Albigensian crusade the French c rown invaded and forced the count of Toulouse/Languedoc (About a third of Occitania) to sign a treaty that would result in the French crown inheriting the land. The count of Toulouse at the time was the brother in law to the King of Aragon, who came to his aid during the crusade. No Royal intervention would have led to Toulouse remaining independent.
 * Oh, and hell, the count of Toulouse was also the marquis of Provence, which is another third of Occitania.Oerwinde 17:16, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * how's this for a general framework:


 * In 1212, seeing his lands devasted by the crusaders, Raymond the count of toulouse return to hs domain with Peter the King of Aragon. The King arrive at Muret to confront the crusaders and agree with Raymond to lay siege. When the frenchs, straving and demoralised, finaly attempt a sortie, then are roundly trashed. News spread quickly of the reversal and within a year, all the town in toulouse return to their rightfull liege.


 * (--Would have to find a way to prevent any further crusades. from then on, peoples born *here* were not born *there* but the general framework stays the same--)


 * 14th century: no war of succession in brittany (--dynasty went better-). Brittany did however, due to its link with england, joined the anglo-normand side in a conflict with France (--Hundred years war in all but name--). The treaty that end the war leads to France recognising Normandy's independence (as a kingdom) in exchange for the English king abandoning his claim to the throne of France. Brittany declared itself an archduchy but stop short of renouncing its fealty to the King of France. (--Would be interesting to have a country which later on is completely sovereign but doesn't refer to itself as a kingdom, like monacco). During the same conflict, Navarre saw a chance to regain some of its lost lands, going north into gascogne then west to gain access to the sea.


 * 15th century: a bretton navigator find north america thnking it was asia


 * 16th century: one of the iberian kingdom unite the rest of the peninsula (including portugal) except for Aragon.


 * --Marcpasquin 23:51, July 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was going to suggest something related to the Albigensian Crusade. I actually put together a storyline kind of like as part of a group project - here's the page.
 * Otherwise, France could easily have disintegrated in the early 13th or late 12th centuries, back when it was heavily feudalized with the Normans/English controlling huge parts of it. The kings began expanding the demesne royal around that time, but you could have them be less successful and France fall apart in the 1200s. Benkarnell 02:59, July 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey Ben, my problem with France disintegrating suddenly is that it would leave a power vacuum that could too easily be filled by the Angevin who might take over and declare themselves king of all of France. you probably would then have a dual monarchy with normandy strictly a part of France and england might even be relegated to minor partner in the union (think of what happened with england and scotland *here*) So what you end up with is still basicaly France, with its parisian based culture/language, only with different borders. Same apply if France loses the Hundred Years war outright. This is why I would prefer a slow erosion of the kingdom so that you might never have anyone even thinking in terms of a renewed France (this would be like *here* having a politician exponing reuniting the Crown lands of Aragon).


 * Reading your page on Occitania got me thinking about the ramification of catharism in Aragon. If their population is large enough, the kingdom might become a lot more tolerant toward other religions then its neighbours and could avoid some of the worst impacts of the european Religious Wars (the kingdom might be moved to ally itself with one side or another based more on political ambitions then anything). Something else to consider is the social impact if the cathars keep expending. Some nobles converted but their right to rule is, afterall, based on a "right of the flesh" so someone at one point might start the idea that spiritualy inspired rulers and not materialy inspired ones should be in charge so there might be a current for establishing a theocracy. It might not need be like the papal states where orders and members of the hierarchy own the land but it could be that, similarly to what you have in Iran *here*, a council of the Perfects must approve candidates for offices and have the power to remove them also.


 * --Marcpasquin 15:57, July 13, 2011 (UTC)



Here is a working map of what western europe might look like in modern times. The grey area represent territories whose fate I haven't decided yet. Marcpasquin 19:03, July 15, 2011 (UTC)

Now the question of whether Guyenne would belong to Occitania/Aragon as it is Occitan in culture, or would it belong to the UK, as it belonged to England from about 1100 until France annexed it at the end of the 100 years war. Also, if Burgundy continues to exist, they would likely have a land connection to the Netherlands, as well as controlling slightly further west.Oerwinde 04:48, July 16, 2011 (UTC)