Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common, electricial experimentation

 * All of Russian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Swedish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of French territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hungarian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Persian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Prussian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Chinese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Hanthawaddian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Bharatian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Korean territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Nipponese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Vvietnamese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Incan territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Itsaygahian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Neue Brandenburian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Spanish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Napolitian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns, electricity used in cities

 * None

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about electricity? we have to assume that something like the voltaic pile eventually was discovered?i mean, already is 1818 and nothing about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:58, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Stability
2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Due to the vote, in which every voting player agreed, this system will now be used for all nations (however, some changes have been proposed based upon industrialization) LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:54, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm Results and Moderator Revolts
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/z+y)*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory.

For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Stability vote
Since the table is still not up, though its been promised for months, and since whenever Scandinator does promise a deadline, he partially fills the table up and then abandons it for weeks on end to become outdated, I have come to the conclusion he will never get it done, and thus the stability system will never work. Since whenever I attempt to simply bring this up he always makes excuse after excuse and delays for month after month, I am hearby just going to bring forward the motion to a vote to go back to the old system, which we could find out own stability and did not require all algorithms to wait for one player to come up with a number which we have no way to verify whether it is true or not. Voting will end this time tomorrow. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:33, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Return to the Old Stability Curve for the reasons above

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 22:37, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * RandomWriterGuy 22:40, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Galaguerra1 22:52, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * --Yank 23:43, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zagoria 03:33, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * if add bonus for pop. and industry-Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Scand's procrastination is absolutely disgusting. You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. --Yank 23:47, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Please note that I sympathize with Scandinator being too busy to work on the table. However, if you are too busy for months, too busy for the entire forseeable future, then you are too busy for the job. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:19, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

You sicken me! CrimsonAssassin 16:01, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The Thing is that Population and industrialisation, one of the greatest factors in warat this point in history, will not be taken into account,so add some sort of bonus in the algorithm(like a populaiton ratio bonus(10:1 ratio, nation with more gets 10 point bonus), and some sort of industry bonus, Scan is taking too long, and return to the old table or system would be easier. -Lx (leave me a message) 16:27, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The old stability system factored in population (the equation used the years of the government's existance and the digits in the population as variables). For the industrialization thing, if you can think of a bonus, you can propose it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, I forgot about eh multiplication that we got rid of. For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus-Lx (leave me a message) 01:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0)-Lx (leave me a message) 01:44, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, 24 hours have passed, and everyone is either in agreement or hasn't voted. Therefore, I hearby declare the new system null and void and a return to the stability curve hearby in effect. Lx, you should make a new section for "Industrialization Stability/Algorithm bonus" where we can discuss new ideas for that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:48, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have probably not heard from Scan for weeks. And he is the only person who is good for the stability. WHERE HAS HE GONE?! RandomWriterGuy 04:12, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea, Lx.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:36, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, calm down. He is in Orlando having a holiday (which he kinda deserves). You would know that if you read posts, lol. :P Imperium Guy 12:07, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Calm down?! Forget that! Freak the hell out.THIS IS A DISASTER! THE ENTIRE WIKI MIGHT SHUT DOWN!!!!!

People, keep calm and carry on. CrimsonAssassin 22:31, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

You forgot the crown Crim. It would be "[crown] keep calm and carry on. :P Imperium Guy 22:35, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nice no find this at the end of my holiday... Good to see you spent my 48 hours flying or in transit doing something useful. I was planning to update the table now that I am back in Sydney with my laptop but seeing as it is crossed out... Scandinator (talk) 23:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, we just wanted to make it clear that it was not being used. If we we put it in really small print instead, would it make you feel better? CrimsonAssassin 02:20, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization bonus for war
For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0), or we could just use the difference for all of the ones(not only if there is a -Lx (leave me a message) 14:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts? I guess I can make this a vote.

Discussion
I think that this only may be used by wars among player nations.A example of what might happen is if hypothetically, Russia, after updating their industry or similars for five consecutive years tries to invade the southern Shwaili state.given that the AI didn 't post, we will have to put their number of updates a 0. their bonus scores then become like this: SSS: (1x1+0)/R: (3x3+5).- SS: 1/R:14. This, if done correctly, can give a big advantage over industrially weaker states, specially if they are AI.somebody remembers when we used larger numbers for stability, the player nations came to have larger stability numbers than what could ever be acheived by a AI, and then we procceeded to invade such nations (Mameluks, Ottomans, Inca, Hafsids, maybe others). to avoid this to happen again, i think that we should use this bonus for wars among player nations, and not AI-plaayer nations, as i said before.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:50, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Or we can use a different system for the AI, and have their color be the Industry, but remember, in history, the European States dominated because of their Industrial Power, and the fact that the industrial armies of The Brittish and the french went up against the industrialy and technologicaly weaker nodal/nomadic states.

Franco-Vietnamese War 1866
France
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 38 (France (L), Malouinas (MV), Haiti (MV), Burgundy (MV), Nouvelle-France (MV), Venice (MV), Sicily (SV), Russia (M), South Africa (MV), Novorossiya (MV), Kazakhztan (MV), Poland (MV), Újfundlandi (MV), Italy (MV), Neue Brandenburg (M))
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -4
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Puppet States: -7
 * Chance: 824/20*pi =129.43
 * Editcount = 824
 * Time:1*5*4 =20
 * Stability: 1.3^1.25/1.25^1.3*2.5*8=21 (rounded)
 * Total: 64

Vietnam

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 16 (Vietnam (L), Burma (MV), Kenia (MV), Taiwan (MV), Dravidia (M), Brunei (M))
 * Puppet States: -2
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -3
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Chance: 8057/8*pi=3,163.9765
 * Editcount = 8057
 * Time:4*2 = 8
 * Stability: 8.0^1.25/1.25^8.0*2.5*8=45
 * Total: 76

Result
TBD, but it would take a lot to give France victory, especially if more nations help Vietnam.

Discussion
I know both nations have vassals and allies and whatnot, but none have posted that they are entering thus far from what I can see, so add them yourselves. (note, if you are in alliance with a player nation, even dynastic union, that player needs to post for it to be recognized). LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Old Russian colonies support france because they have to. Russians dont realy like it though, but the fracturing party after Mehseryakov's demise will not be good to Charles-Louis in the end.

Yank, I'm not planning keeping any territory I manage to conquest. Except may be Furanchesou, if you agree. --Galaguerra1 02:19, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

What year did the Russian and French legislatures merge? Because that's the biggest change in government I can think of recently. I need that for stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

1853 --Galaguerra1 02:39, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

OK, now they are complete unless more people join. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:42, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg enters the war on the French side... Sorry for being a little late...Zagoria 02:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Only 12 point difference. Could be tight... LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I just have 4 puppets, Nouvelle-France, Haiti, Újfundlandi and Malouinas, while Italy and Burgundy are vassals, unless you're counting Sicily and Venice, but they're administrated by Lurker. Also the provisional govenrment of Ungava should probably be on the vietnamese side.--Galaguerra1 02:51, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

France
We need to unite our forces to defeat this warmonger! Who's with me?

Yank 00:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia is with you. Istoias and Ricasolia are in conflict over which side to join. Naples would help Vietnam, but France already defeated them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:57, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

When's Scandinator coming back? He's kind of the Great Britain in my napoleonic plan. Also internal problem in the mesheryakovist faction will help you defeating me. Malouians will turn against France, and massive protest will be held. I hope you'll fegure out a plan to defeat France and take it to that outbreak point. --Galaguerra1 01:37, April 13, 2012 (UTC)