Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stability
Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points. If your points drop below 1000, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 500, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely.CrimsonAssassin 15:19, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds all good. We should be able to incorporate it every five years. Maybe a couple of edits to the formula:
 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 cash crops and spices, 50 other non-staple food/mining/guano)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)

Stability = Status Quo/(Territory+log(Population))
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * +25 economic improvement
 * +30 religious/moral revival
 * +25 infrastructure
 * +10 war
 * 100*percent won in a war
 * -500*percent lost in a war

Stability will be placed in the key beginning 1700, and implemented the same year. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:44, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population)/Territory + 1)*500
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.

I think we could use more additions or subtractions, like this:

Penalties: Benifits: CrimsonAssassin 01:05, September 16, 2011 (UTC) I want to kind of avoid that becoming too complicated or subjective, but here's my opinions: Benifits: Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:09, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50
 * Major invasion= -100
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100
 * War won= +50
 * Improvements= +30
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every trade route= +5
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20
 * Penalties:
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20 (sure)
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20 (this would encourage people to cut wars short rather than make them plausible) From what I've seen, most wars last around five years, but whatever you think the average war lasts on PM is fine.
 * Nearby unrest= -10 (not sure what you mean) A nearby nation has a civil war or breaks down
 * Minor invasion= -50 (makes sense, but realize expansion already kills you in wars. This interferes with the war algorithm anyway.) By this, I mean a border skirmish that ended up going into your territory.
 * Major invasion= -100 (differece between major and minor?) If a big chunk (maybe more than 15%) is captured or if a major city is captured.
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (would be unfair for smaller countries, and very subjective. Do you mean internal or external?) External. Most countries have a fine network of trade with other countries from what I've seen.
 * War won= +50 (I'd prefer if it depends on how well the war was won. An easily won war would have minimal effect, but a long, dragging war would be damaging even with victory) I guess this could be taken off.
 * Improvements= +30 (sure)
 * Every alliance= +10 (makes sense, but only as a one time thing)
 * Every trade route= +5 (vague. I don't think most people are going to make a list of trade routes and if they do they will probably overestimate. But I agree we need something like this.) Maybe financial alliances or something?
 * Every vassal= +20 (Vassals don't help with stability. This is more of a power issue) Yeah, this is kind of stupid
 * Every colony= +20 (I wouldn't say colonies count as stability, more as power like vassals) So is this

Posted clarifications in bold.

If this is too complicated, the mods can always zap countries back in line CrimsonAssassin 04:21, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

This means that we're gonna have to use full turns in each turn to not lose points?And, about economic points, and if you don't have any idea about what are the resources of your country?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:29, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it's no big deal. It simulates most countries' rise and decline. Most European countries don't have that many resources, unfortunately, but if you get a colony you can add the resources. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:17, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * Other Side of the World: 1
 * Strength: 9
 * Military Expansion: 16
 * Population: 2
 * Motive: (Political) 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:
 * Editcount: 1560
 * 2x2x1=4
 * 1560/4= 390 xpi = 2450.442269800038726000861838958
 * Chance= 8


 * Owned area for 0 years= 0
 * Total= 52

Aztecs

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 4
 * High Ground: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 31

Result
Chinese Victory. China is entitled to 25.3% of Aztec Territory

52/83=.6265

.6265-.5= .1265

.1265* 2= .2530

Treaty of Tallinn
This treaty, signed in the Capital of Estland, Tallinn, officialy ends the Third Russo-Swedish war. This treaty will determine the fate of Denmark, Estonia, Oldenburg, Doitsuchou, Livonia(liflandia)/Courland.(loopholes are in brackets)

Peace Terms

 * 1) Sweden and her coalition powers (those whom fought at Sweden's side) MUST akgnowledge their defeat in this conflict, and take on the burden of being responsible for this war. This includes providing war repatriatons of 1 million kronars to Russia, 2 million kronars to the AGC and half a million to Naples.(notice I said faught, not supported)
 * 2) The territory of Livonia is either become a vassal of or be annexed by Lithuania.
 * 3) Prussia is to be annexed by the Commonwealth of Anglogermany.
 * 4) Sweden will retain full control of Oldenburg, Doitsuchou, Jutland south to Holstein and Estland as well as a strip of coastline 35km inland from Oldenburg to Jutland to Doitsuchou.
 * 5) Sweden will allow the free use of all ports of AGC citizens and all AGC good travelling into Sweden or out of Sweden will not be taxed.
 * 6) Estland is not to engage in any military conflicts whatsoever against Russia, Anglo-Germany, Naples, China, or Hanthawaddy, same goes for Denmark (although this refers to the official danish army, you can still use it if you make a greater Swedish army)
 * 7) Estland will be allowed to remain Sweden's Vassal, and will not be annexed into Sweden Proper
 * 8) Sweden and Sweden Alone must rebuild any Neapolitan ships sunk, and help rebuild any Anglo-German ships sunk in some way or another.
 * 9) Swedish military outposts in Estland must remain at an equal number or less than Russian ones(notice I said Swedish and not Estonian)
 * 10) Any violation of this treaty must be interpreted as an act of war, but a benifit of the doubt must be considered(comunications, even between generals to the king werent stelar in the 1680s)

Principia Moderni-related notes
Sweden can use this treaty in being angry so they attack Russia again around 1710 or something, so there can be an armed conflict that Russia wins under Peter I or something, as long as its orchestrated and everyone knows it's happening, like an extention of this war, like WWII was to WWI

Signatures
Signatory States: Winning Coalition, Loosing Coalition and neutral observer states.

Russia/Anglo-Germany (victorious) Coalition
Please sign as your king/leader/emperor's name and title(of a regent is present write the Regent's name and Title after the Name of the actual de jure ruler), folowed by 3 tiles. Vassals/Puppets may sign, and in the same manner as main nations. Use Russia and Kazakhstan's signaturea as examples.

Peter I and Ivan VI, Tsars of all Russias and Lithuania, Dominators of Livonia, Grand Dukes of the Caucasus, Chrimea, and the Far East, Rulers of Siberia and all their Posessions. Sophia Alexeyevna Romanova, Regent of all Russias and Lithuania.LxCaucassus

Anzer Talkan, Khazar of Kazakhstan and Vassal to Russia LxCaucassus

Ankar Azal, Emir of South Armenia(puppet to Russia) LxCaucassus

His Royal Majesty Angelo Entori King of Naples, Sovereign of the Neapolitan Empire, and Protector of the Faith. LurkerLordB

Pope Urban VI, Archbishop of Rome, Head of the Catholic Church, and Master of the Papal States. LurkerLordB

Suryamala, Emperor of Hanthawaddy, Bengal, and their possessions. Detectivekenny

Swedish (Defeated) Coalition
Please sign as your king/leader/emperor's name and title(of a regent is present write the Regent's name and Title after the Name of the actual de jure ruler), folowed by 3 tiles. Vassals/Puppets may sign, and in the same manner as main nations. Use Russia and Kazakhstan's signaturea as examples.

Robert Bertrand, King of France as Robert III and King of the Burgundians as Robert I. Galaguerra1 01:17, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Christina Alexandra, Queen of the Swedes, Norweigns, Goths and Vandals, Grand Princess of Finland, Duchess of Estonia, Holland and Karelia and Supreme ruler of the Swedish colonies.Scandinator

Discussion and Proposed Changes

 * You really wouldn't need all the free-ports stuff added, you could just say that you won't restrict German Ships sailing through the Danish islands. LurkerLordB 16:18, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, since for Brandenburg, Jutland is crucial for communications with England, it is very necessary.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:24, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that, even though I won the war, I am losing more territory then I gained? I would like control of at least part of eastern OTL Netherlands.Zagoria 19:08, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, they probably should give you a passage to the Atlantic there. If Zagoria doesn't accept the treaty, doesn't that mean that Germany keeps all of their prior territory, and then takes however much they earned from winning the war from Sweden? LurkerLordB 19:21, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Since Anglo-Germany wants more, Naples and the Papal states withdrew from the treaty until Anglo-Germany's demands are met.LurkerLordB 21:41, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

To make it fair, Anglo-Germany should probably be given at least equal to the amount of territory they lost, if not a little extra since they actually won.LurkerLordB 21:41, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

If the Commonwealth don't have a coast to the Northern Sea, it will be de facto separated from its british territory, then Sweden will control the communication between the two provinces. May be, the Commonwealth can keep Holstein --Galaguerra1 22:11, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

BTW who removed me kinda saying that I control the Finnish Gulf Islands?(contro the Gulf of Finland). oh ya and I think I should Control Saaremaa and Hiiuma islands, which is what I meant in the COntols the entrance to the Gulf of finland term that Somebody erased. and at least give AGC control of the Trait of Jutland.LxCaucassus 22:22, October 16, 2011 (UTC)



I propose this(and edit treaty accordingly if approved)LxCaucassus 22:44, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Naples and the Papal States will re-approve of it now that Germany has access to the atlantic. LurkerLordB 23:23, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

The Commonwealth will approve this treaty.Zagoria 00:09, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

The Incas ridiculous violations of the rules
Whoever plays as the Incas just recently came back and decided to godmod his empire to extents that make Januasary seem like a moderator. I think that the Inca's last turn should be revoked, and the user should either be temporarily banned from the game until he can learn to play by the rules, or the Incan Empire should be broken up and destroyed. LurkerLordB 18:13, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) He stated that he already industrialized, despite the fact that industrialization is not scheduled to start until 1700, and begin in Russia and slowly spread outward from there.
 * 2) He brought his nation out of civil disarray without even mentioning it.
 * 3) He claims that his nation upgraded its military while he was gone, while in fact, if you don't post, your nation doesn't upgrade anything.
 * 4) He conquered two powerful kingdoms, Manoa and the other one I can't spell, without an algorithm or even a war.
 * 5) He expanded his nation more than twice its normal size in one year, a feat that is impossible and could never have occured.

dude, i have been expanding for at least 15 years and, probably more, as well as modernizing my army, navy and industrilaizing, no one ever update my maps and if I need to keep writing the exact same thing over and over and over and over, well you get the picture, check the archives. DeanSims 18:25, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

The moderators said you went into civil disarray, the Incas have been fighting eachother for the past decade or so, no time to improve. Plus, you still ignored the algorithm, as well as the rule that you cannot industrialize until after Russia (which will occur in 1700). You also did not post any of those past 15 years. If you didn't post it on the game, it didn't happen. LurkerLordB 19:19, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the moderators already overruled your actions and reverted them. LurkerLordB 20:08, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Not posting does not mean free expansion and industrialization. Not posting means "minor economic and military upgrades" at best. In fact, you didn't reply to my notice on your talk page, so I put your country into civil disarray. You're just going to have to work with what you got, starting from scratch. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:44, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Division of France-Burgundy
I just want clarify the borders of Burgundy, now that is independent.

France conserves: Burgundy obtains: So I avoid any error in the next map. P.D.: Flanders is a colony? In thaht case, Jaeden would have four colonies--Galaguerra1 18:52, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) France
 * 2) Haiti
 * 3) New France
 * 4) East Algeria.
 * 1) Franche-Comté
 * 2) Flanders
 * 3) Cote d'Ivoire
 * 4) Guinée
 * 5) West Algeria

No, flanders is a extension of Burgundy, a exclave between France, Sweden and Brandenburg.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:04, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Industrializations


The map you have all been waiting for. It tells exactly when you may begin industrializing. But understand the stages of industrialization:

1) Beginning of industrialization: People move into the cities, and the steam engine may be utilized. Mass production may begin to replace cottage industries on a small scale.

2) Industrialization on a mass scale: Huge factories in cities, Industrial Revolution. Mining and hydraulics.

3) Fully industrialized: Trains and other steam-powered vehicles commonplace. Factories are scaled back and are made more efficient.

4) Transition from coal to other fossil fuels. Automobiles, etc. From here countries can make slow introductions of modern-day technology as long as it does not surpass OTL.

Here are the minimum dates:

Note: Any of this may change. Countries which make significant diplomacy, e.g. become vassalized under an industrial nation may industrialize sooner, although this will take a toll on the existing nation. There are other ways, too such as getting out of civil disarray, so if you have a question, ask. Also, if you have anything to add, please comment. Thanks! <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:50, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
The Russian Capital Will be moved to St Petersburg, it would make sense that St petersburg and Villnus were incorporated into the purple zone as lithuania has much coal(although siberia has ample wood and combustibles). Please, I want Siberia by 1700(Siberia-World's largest forest-wood-steam power), so please dont wage war on me untill 1710 and I wil use the multiple rivers to capitalize on gains faster(siberia literaly has hindreds of those!)and I have been expanding(by that point) into siberian territory for over 150 years!LxCaucassus 22:59, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Could nations that lose/win wars move up or down on the scale? Also, what in-game differences does it make to be industrialized? Such as having a bonus in wars against nations that are further down the scale. (Naples seems to be fine on the scale). Also, that map is now out of date, as the treaty map was changed to give Germany more territory. Actually, how do all those little nations in former Turkey industrialize before Naples? If they are moved back, I will be fine. LurkerLordB 23:17, October 16, 2011 (UTC)