Talk:Principia Moderni/Archive 5

Stability
''' This system is the old one, and it is no longer in use. It has been kept in this archive for historical purposes ''' Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in from 1700 onward. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points you lose. If your points drop below 500, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 300, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely.
 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 important metals, e.g. iron, copper .etc)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)
 * trade routes (50 for each major trade route - note a long border does not mean lots of trade)

Stability = Status Quo + Penalties to stability: Benifits to stability:
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population) (rounded)/Territory)*500 which is the nations status quo
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50 (border skirmish)
 * Major invasion= -100 (15% of territory lost or one major city captured)
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (as decided by mods)
 * -500*percent of territory lost in a war
 * War won in less than 5 years= +50
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every major trade route= +25 (mods decide your number)
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20
 * Stability greater than 1500 for the last 25 years= +150
 * Economic improvement= +25
 * Religious/moral revival= +30
 * Infrastructure= +25
 * War= +10
 * Military development/expansion= +20
 * 100*percent of territory won in a war

Stability of Player-States and Bonus Angorithm Points

 * All Metals+Soil Quality


 * Stability - Status Quo'

Mamluk Crusade
I decided we needed an official planning section for the Mamluk crusade. If we manage to overthrow the government, this is the current division of Mamluk territory:

Of course, we probably would be able to negoriate to give other people who join territory as well, or we could make a treaty/pay them off for their aid instead.

To everyone entering the war: I want this to be a long war. It is an enormous amount of territory to conquer, and it is a powerful empire. Unlike the Ottomans, who were cobbled together from numerous different ethnic groups that easily splintered away, the Mamluks are united by thier Arab descent. It will take a long time to overthrow such a nation, and longer still to subjugate the people. Furthermore, it has become sort of boring that all of the wars recently, even the 2 "Great Northern Wars" ended after two years. I am thinking that this should last like 10 years. It will be more fun that way. LurkerLordB 03:06, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

And worse; they are in civil disarray.it will be more difficult yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:38, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the Crusade may actually require a series of short wars to take all of the nation. LurkerLordB 13:29, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree, the war should last ten years. Anyway, I thought about it and I want a little more territory, specificlly, a few lands down to Qatar and Bahrain. When do we start the crusade? After the Great Northern War? Now? Anyway, I want to iniciate it (considering that Naples and Sweden/Denmark will be in a sort of post-bellum state). Also, I would like to divide my conquest lands in two vassal states: Egypt, ruled by the Patriarch of Alexandria (as vassal to the King of France and the Pope) and Arabia, ruled by a Caliph of Mecca and Medina. Is this possible? --Galaguerra1 19:59, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

In part, this will not be possible.Alexandria will go to Greek control, and it's of Greek interest that the Patriarch stays on Egyptian lands. {C {C {C {C}{C}{C And, if i get that amount of territory on Egypt, and not too many people enter, i will make a vassal state called Egypt.but Arabia can be made.oh, and you already don't have a vassal in Algeria?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:44, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think that perhaps we should actually not choose any land right now, until it is confirmed who is going to enter. If no one else does, you can ask if Scandinator would let you take that territory. I am making an algorithm to determine if we will win now... LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Crusaders (led by France)

 * Near the location of the War: 3
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France(L)/Algeria(MV)/Burgundy(M)/Naples(M)/Papal States(MV)/Jerusalem(MV)/Hungary(M)/Greece(MV)/Sweden(M)/Estonia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/ Scotland(MV)/Persia(M)/Yemen (M)/Spain(M)/Tsalagi (M): 42
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 8
 * Stability: 56
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * Editcount:205
 * 0x2x4x5 = 40
 * 205/40 x pi = 16100.6 6 23
 * Total=133

Mamluk Empire

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Mamluk Empire/Jysan/Fartak/Assyria: 12 (the crusade is against the "Rome" of Islam, all Muslim states nearby will try to help)
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Total= 46*1.5=69

Result
Crushing Crusader Victory. The Crusaders are entitled to 30.6% of Mamluk territory, a vast amount, but not enough to win the war.
 * Mamluk Area: 71104px
 * 133/202 -0,5 x 2:0,306532664 = 31,6%
 * 31,6% of 71104 = 22468px

Discussion
I assumed tha *1.5 for civil disarray was to the final result. LurkerLordB 23:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Jaeden CC (Burgundy) just confirmed me that he will be on our side (and he wants no territory gains). May be the user of Persia wants to participate. --Galaguerra1 01:40, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

If Persia joined it, it would be easy just to extend their territory that will border the Mamluks after they conquer Shahrzur just down some. LurkerLordB 17:22, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

You know what, I think I should join the war on the Crusaders' side. What do I have to conquer?

RandomWriterGuy 22:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

You could probably just extend your territory from Shahrzur down some ways. LurkerLordB 01:12, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

What territory of the Mamuluk Empire can i have?

RandomWriterGuy 22:34, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

What he said.But, bad news here, we will have to wage two wars, because in the best of cases, with Persia helping and Yemen out of Mamluk's side, we stlll would get only roughly 25% of territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:12, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I calculated it to be 32.68, just barely not enough to win the war. Although if one more person would help... LurkerLordB 19:59, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not on the Mamuluk's side. Besides, I also want to conquer it. Can you leave the Shia areas of the Mamuluk Empire and its holdings in the Arab Peninsula for me to conquer. I promise to support you in the crusades.

RandomWriterGuy 02:51, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest we take all of Egypt and Libya (if that is 32%) over the next 4 years and if there is extra then Persia and Naples get their share and France as well up to the 32%. After a break of 3 years recontinue the war and win!!!! :PScandinator 11:19, November 8, 2011 (UTC).

I think that this accounts for 40%, or something.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:58, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

O.K., remember what I said: all Shia areas and the Arab Peninsula portion are mine. {C {C}{C RandomWriterGuy 14:56, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

No, you can't get the whole of the Arab Peninsula, that would be way to big. There really aren't any Shi'a areas, on account of this being OTL Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I say just extend your border downwards a bit. How about this: LurkerLordB 01:31, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I have a new proposition: The proposition of LLB, but a few lands of mine territory to Yemen, my own land increase to Qatar (I hope you have no problem with that, Scandinator) and divided in the two vassal states I mention before. What other countries can we call to help us? When will the war end? I'm thinking in 1720... --Galaguerra1 03:13, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

1720 seems good, 10 years of war should be enough. It might take longer to subjugate the Mamluk people, but with Vassal states resistance will be a lot lower. If Scandinator is willing to lose that much land, the new thing is fine. If he isn't, then I don't know what you could do, except maybe give him all the Sinai, and extend his portion of Arabia south, so France is like a U-shape covering Qatar. But if he is fine with less, then we don't have to do that. If other people join though, I don't know. Do the Mamluks have any colonies left? LurkerLordB 03:25, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. there is one near Tsalagi, other in Florida and other on OTL Delaware.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:42, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget! I'm in the war now since I had captured Baghdad. Will you count me?

RandomWriterGuy 01:36, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

You're counted already. Gr, if we can just get Itsagahi to join, we can take out their government! LurkerLordB 01:40, November 14, 2011 (UTC) Since we can gain only 22458 px now, there is a proposal in how the map should look like in 1720.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:02, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I thought Finland was sending aid to us. How much territory should we conquer to destroy the memluk government? --Galaguerra1 21:15, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

We won't win on the first take.we need to end the Crusade in 1720 and re-start it later, because we would need support of more two or three nations to reach 33%.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:22, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

That division seems to be good, actually, I like that shape of Jerusalem better, Sweden can just take the far eastern parts that would be added on later. Also, would Itsagahi get the Floridan colony after the first attack? It makes sense, due to the fact that it is so small, and that is all they are attacking, that they would gain control of it as well. LurkerLordB 01:32, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree. Anyway, when will we start the Second Crusade? 1730 or 1735 seem good to me --Galaguerra1 02:53, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

1730 would be good.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:52, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

I did conquer the Northern part of my part to conquer in the Mamuluk Empire, but why is this not recognized?

RandomWriterGuy 18:15, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

I updated the map based on what you said that you conquered.you can conquer the rest after 1730.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:34, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Treaty of Rome
I commented in boldLxCaucassus 11:13, November 4, 2011 (UTC) {C
 * 1) Russia and her supporters will acknowledge defeat. fine, OK
 * 2) Livonia and the Estonian Islands will be handed over to the Baltic Alliance See comment below
 * 3) Lithuania will be split with the smaller Northern section becoming North Lithuania - a puppet state of Sweden see comment below
 * 4) Sweden's remaining annexable territory quota will be taken from the Finnish border.
 * 5) Russia, Lithuania, Armenia, Persia, AGC, Greece, Kazakhstan and China will not attack Sweden and her dominions, France, Algeria, Yemen and Vietnam. Fine but you know there will be wars between Russia and Sweden. lots happened in history. I'll try to mimic those a bit like in 1809 when Alexander took finland to protect petersburg. for the rest of the lifetime of Peter I, II, Catherine I, Elizabeth I will not incite war
 * 6) Russia must pay 1.5 million kronars to Sweden and her allies and send men to rebuild the damage to Swedish infrastructure. how bout 5-10 million(rubles) and I get to keep livonia
 * 7) Persia will return the Swedish India colony. Sorry but I did not realize the war was over until right now. Please, I want to cancel the Persian invsaion of India. RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * 8) Russian and Lithuanian military bases and manpower in Kola, St Petersburg, Lithuania and within 100 km of the Baltic alliance will not excceed those in Finland, Baltic Alliance and North Lithuania. uh... I need the baltc ports to survive!
 * 9) Sweden is allowed to keep the strange contraptions found in St Petersburg (steam engines)...Sure...but there werent any...it was only in archange, St petersburg wasnt built enough to have those yet. and I dont think you would need to ask to keep them...you can say strange contraptions found near St Petersburg being transported to Archangel... itll take you some time to learn to use them though.

Again, a list of demands, without even an attempt at negotiations. I suggest you change your tune, Scan - you have been warned, remember? Lordganon 11:29, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator, it's too late, you aren't going to gain anything, and you both are losing Finnland. The deadline was two days ago, you failed to meet it, therefore, Finnish independence. + what Lordganon said. LurkerLordB 20:23, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the new map that DK added, with Finland becoming independent. I think we should probaby make a short rule stating that neither Russia nor Sweden can take Finland as vassal for full-on territory for the next 50 years or so, because it wouldn't be much of a punishment if Sweden could immediately declare Finland a vassal 1 year later. LurkerLordB 21:18, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

I also recognize Russian defeat.

RandomWriterGuy 21:40, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Lx, I don't care if you and Scan keep debating this and looking for a solution but you have lost the right to do so on this talk page. When you agree on something on your own talk pages, I'll gladly change the map and remove Finland. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:24, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Since Finland is already independent, then it seems to be too late to give it back to them. The deadline was three days ago, so Finland should be independent already. LurkerLordB 22:50, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

wait, the bold was me discussing his terms, I believe that he posted that, I responded proposing something else and then I want to wait for him to approve or suggest something else, we are doing diplomacy now... please wait untill scan responds to the bold before banning us from discussing this from this page.LxCaucassus 23:14, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Too late, Lx. A ruling has been made by Kenny, and I will back him in enforcing it.

Take it to your talk pages. And keep it civil - the walls have ears.

Lordganon 23:46, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I won't delete Finland but I may give you a chance to reclaim territory. Any further discussion on the topic henceforth will be dropped. Further argument will see immediate blocking. It is about time this page got archived, it is way past 100,000 bytes. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:45, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yemen
I would like to ask, what painting programs do people use for drawing such beautiful maps? For example, I use Paint.NET for that. Doctor261 11:57, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I Have to answer, as mapmaker.in my case, nothing special.just MS Paint.however, these that i make are all variations of the first map, drawn by Detectivekenny.but isn't difficult.just download the map and edit it on Paint.every map must be saved as .png on the file's template.However, if you are going to edit the maps, i think that you should simply leave it to me.the last time that this happened, the maps became too much confusing, since both mapmakers were posting different maps each time.if i miss something, tell me.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I use Paint.NET as well. Per Kenny's suggestion, I am archiving everything except this treaty, the Crusade, and the labelled map, as everything else is either from past stuff or can be found on the RUles page (no reason to have algorithm, stability, and industrialization in 2 places) LurkerLordB 14:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, check the link below my post. This is how Yemen borders looked in 1700. Did something happen in another way alt-historically in this map-game before? {C {C}{C

Doctor261 14:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

That is not the way the borders looked, that map is a map from modern times with the European empires (the colors) imposed on top of it. None of the nations on that map had borders like that during that time period, except for the ones in colors. LurkerLordB 15:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

The borders were probably very loose then. Yemen probably controlled a few cities, towns, and villages, and the nomads wouldn't be under any jurisdiction. Much of Yemen is the Rub-al-Khali, as you probably know. But LurkerLordB is right, the map is just colors superimposed on present-day borders. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:04, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Also I use Pixelmator, which costs money but has served really well as a cheaper alternative to Photoshop for Macs. I occasionally use Inscape which is free for vector imagery (smooths out lines a bit and is good for some maps but its's really complicated). Some people I know are happy with the Gimp which is another free software similar to Pixelmator. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:17, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator's Misuse of Moderator powers -Situation Clarified, NVM
Recently, Scandinator has been misusing his powers as "disaster moderator" to his advantage. He made up a famine in Germany these past couple turns, despite the fact that no real famine happened there in history during that time. Now, this is alternate history, so there could be famines that didn't happen in real life, so that is not the real problem. The real problem is that he recently stated that the famines are making Prussians wish to rejoin Sweden. I say it is abuse of moderator powers to cause disasters that only occur in one nation that have no historical basis in an attempt to seize land from that nation. Mod-created Disasters should either be historical, be region/continent wide, or be used to punish players. Scandinator's recent actions are not historical, and are focussed on one nation that violated no rules. This makes it obvious that this is nothing more than a build up to a Sweden/German war in an attempt to seize back territories taken from them fairly in a war.

This is an addition to the controversy involving the stability which Scandinator has been handling, which resulted in the administration of this wiki becoming involved and nearly banning him. It seems as if Scandinator is incapable of using his moderator powers in a fair and unbiased manner, and therefore I feel it is sadly necessary for him to be removed from his position. LurkerLordB 15:36, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree. There was in fact a famine in East Prussia from 1708 - 1711, which killed 41% of the population (250,000 people). It is also true that the AGC did very little about it, even if they were inactive. He probably shouldn't have mentioned his own country, but there's nothing really wrong here. After all, he's put a lot of work into discovering every natural disaster, something which I just could never do no matter how much I tried.

An argument takes two people. He obviously put a lot of time and effort into the stability system, which was based on something I concocted and makes sense, as well as being accurate. So what about one argument? Everyone gets in arguments. He is still relatively new to the game and has been getting better all along. In this case he just needs a slap to the side of the face to not mention his own country. Same thing happened in India a little while ago, and Hanthawaddy could have invaded, but he didn't mention Hanthawaddy at all, which is OK. But he shouldn't mention Sweden at all. In a journalistic article, the writer can't mention himself at all, no matter how relevant his name is to the story. Same principle applied here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's been hard to find that many sources for the famine, but eventually I managed to find it. It still seems sort of like a land grab, that the famine happens and then Sweden posts that the people of Prussia are considering joining Sweden again, it just seemed unfair to Anglo-Germany to use a moderator action as an attempt to gain land. However, now that I found that the famine was real, I apoligize for exagerrating it beyond its true size. LurkerLordB 23:38, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yet More Issues with the Map
I haves some more issues with the map. It's not about my territory for once, but about the absence of a player nation. Finland had gained a user controlling it, but as of yet is not on the map. Are we adding it after the borders are hashed out, or is this a mistake? By they way I do believe the second option is the better one.

Yank 08:09, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Finland should be red, we don't have any reds. And Sweden should stop trying to retake them and accept that they lost it as punishment. LurkerLordB 12:42, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I will define the color.as for Finland's absence i did not added it because in part, i want to make sure that Finland's creation won't be reverted.and in part because i forgot to even download the proposal map to copy the area and paste it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Finland already has a player, its too late to revert it at this point. LurkerLordB 19:49, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Here's another issue: I conquered several Indian kingdoms. Will this be put on the new map?

RandomWriterGuy 02:59, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Collie, hate to put you on the spot, but really everything should go on the map, unless someone disputes it. You can't really ignore posts. I'm not singling out a specific incident, just in general. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:16, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

And i'm trying to know if conquering the Rajputs so fast is actually plausible.since Multan and Sindh are small kingdoms, this would be easy, but the Rajputs?compared to other Indian kingdoms, they are medium-sized, so i think that this would deserve a algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:36, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'll make one. Also Sweden managed to annex Livonia minus Riga and around 100px of Lithuania as well as the Estonian Islands.Scandinator 06:50, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

As has been stated elsewhere, Not one bit of that was agreed to by anyone. You stating something does not make it true.

I'm feeling lenient today, so you're just going to get this warning: You were told by myself and Kenny to cut that out. I suggest you listen for once.

Lordganon 07:40, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Me and Lx already agreed to that.Scandinator 08:24, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Not only was there no agreement there at all, but the entire process was rendered moot by the Finland solution.

So, no. That is not something you two agreed to. A simple reading of it all shows otherwise.

One more word about that and you'll get a vacation. I am sick and tired of it.

Lordganon 08:45, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Actualy, we did agree on that, I got to keep what I wanted: the coastline and he got to be happy and annex part of Livonia. Although I never agreed to the islands... oh well, I gues they could turn out to be a natural border dispute between the 2 nations, like the kurils with Russia and Japan, but are so insignificant that tey wont start a war. Lithuania part was kind of in exchange for the Pup of land that Estonia has that is part of OTL Russia.-Lx (leave me a message) 12:06, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

All of the sundown kingdoms were affected by the famine. in fact,Scandinator told me about this and what to do. If you have complaintments, send them to Scandinator, not me. RandomWriterGuy 14:54, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Even then, a algorythm is needed, because is impossible that even affected by famine, the Rajputs wouldn't put up any resistance and given the size of the kingdom, it would take two or three years to conquer.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:47, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Not unless you're China. Tell you what, Persia: If you want to, I'll split the Rajputs with you and you can have it now. I just need some territory touching the Mughals. CrimsonAssassin 16:02, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

This is true.Persia only updated their military on four years out of fiteen.that's a reason in why Persia wouldn't get much if a algorythm was made.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:04, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Actually Lx, you responded to his demands by offering him part of Livonia - but he never responded to you. Nothing was agreed on. He's still going off saying that his demands, which you did not agree to, happened in their entirety. Reminds me, that I have to go on this blasted thing and edit that.

Lordganon 17:21, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

I have removed/edited the lines. Kenny specifically said what the result was, and you two haven't decided anything since then. So, a draw with the loss of Finland. Lordganon 17:35, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

The Indian kingdoms I conquered were small. This should have gave me easy victories.

RandomWriterGuy 23:02, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

This gave you easy victories, until you combat the Rajputs.as i said, they are medium-sized (almost, if not, the size of Poland).but, you should dedicate more time to upgrade your military.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:02, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

China
Next to the Location of the War: 4 Updating military: 4 Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Rajput

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population (10,000 to 100,000): 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Chinese Victory. China is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Rajput territory. The Rajput empire collapses.

Hypothetical Vietnamese-Korean (Joseon) War
This a section on a potential future war I'm planning with Joseon. With Pitakang pretty much gone for good, I realized that Vietnam may be looking apon Joseon's many territories covetingly. This section is for the algorithm so that I can see what the results would be for such a war. Keep in mind I allways use 15 years to build up my military, sans colonization.

Yank 19:52, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, just leave their motherland. Pita might be back during Christmas break. Oh and I'll take Taiwan. CrimsonAssassin 21:52, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

He still looks around, just saying… But do what you want. Keep any test algorithms off the page. You can do them by yourself or in your sandbox. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:51, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Pita! CrimsonAssassin 02:52, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

All I really want are the colonies. I'll let him have his homeland if (or when) he returns. But not really for Vietnam's sake. I'd give Kamchatka and Korean Japan to Nippon, and the Phillipine colony to New Lithuania. And it's no longer hypothetical. I'm going to start my traditional preperations in 1715. {C {C}{C Yank 04:08, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take his Colombian colony :P Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:15, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

The war is definitely no longer hypothetical. I have set the ball rolling, and will attack Joseon in 15 turns. Can I count on Hanthawaddy and China's support in this war?

Yank 03:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

St Petersburg Convention
this conferance is hosted by Peter I of Russia himself to discuss colonial claims to America amongst all european states. this conference will only encompas continental North America

North America
The Commonwealth controls Wolkenland (OTL Eureka, CA) and I was hoping to encompass roughly the OTL State of California. That is all I was considering ruling in North America, however.Zagoria 04:16, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Since the Commonwealth, Hungary and Russia have colonies on southern Africa, we should divide it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:30, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Greece wants to make a clear division between the Russian colony soth of Neos Prezeza and Neos Preveza.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:30, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

How about this? -Lx (leave me a message) 12:13, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Can't you change a bit of this? was proved that is almost impossible reach the great lakes with Labrador, so i was thinking if you could give Neos Preveza a outlet to the Great lakes.but for this to work, you would have to cede that peninsula where is the area of Toronto.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:59, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

well, I gave you a first map didnt I, take it and edit it to let me know what you want! change this map a little, thats wat its there for is it not? When we reach a decision on the map then only wioll we attempt to put it in treaty form to make an article about it.-Lx (leave me a message) 17:35, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

France has sent the Archbishop of Avignon, Jean Bertrand, as ambassador. France is agree with the proposed division. The cardinal asks the representatives to consider Florida. The potential colonists in that peninsula can be Itsyaghi, Naples or France itself. --Galaguerra1 18:19, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Everyone's made some drastic jumps here. Can I have some Great Plains territoy? CrimsonAssassin 19:29, November 9, 2011 (UTC)



Well, i'm willing to give my chunk of territory on the Great Plains.it's actually impossible reach the Great lakes from there, given the current rate of expansion.so, there's my proposal.along with a outlet to the Great Lakes, Greece/Hungary would gain parts of OTL Michigan and the peninsula where it is Toronto, and other cities, in trade for it's territory inland of the Great Plains, which will be divided between China, Sweden and Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:10, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I am completely satisfied with the new proposal. CrimsonAssassin 20:57, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I like this but with one condition: can Russia please have the horseshoe Niagra falls???? I like them better that the American falls...XD(Im Canadian-Russian)-Lx (leave me a message) 22:44, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

I am satisfied with North America, but since Hungary (I think) will get a large chunk of North America, and has colonies in Brazil, can the AGC have the a large part of Brazil (that was going to be my principal colony). I would upload a map but I do not have any software for it.Zagoria 00:20, November 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * all you need is paint or photoshop... but i'll do something for you-Lx (leave me a message)

Naples' only claim in the North-American are is the island of Cuba, so they won't dispute this at all. Perhaps sending a message to Itsagahi would be a good idea? They have claimed the rest of Florida a couple times in-game, I know that. LurkerLordB 00:58, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam's claim is to the region known in OTL as New England. Which means I want all (or most) of the OTL states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont and Massachusetts. Plus the healthy portion of New Brunswick on the map.

Yank 04:08, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

China and Itsaygahi have by far the strongest claims to the continent, but Russia and Sweden hold vast swathes of territory in this scenario. Itsaygahi wants access to the Great Lakes at very least. Mumby 19:19, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

True, Itsaygahi does have the largest amount of territory in North America other than China, so they should bet some expansion. I'll make a proposal. LurkerLordB 20:55, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

the thing I dont like about this is the fact that Russia's colonies are seperated by Itsahagi, I would like them to be one contigious thing...somehow...excluding of course Russian America.that can stay there. I would like the south part of RUssia's eastern claim(gulf of mexico touching) and Novorossiya/canada to be one mass. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:37, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Technically, they can go through the Great lakes on boats to be reconnected. You must understand Itsagahi has a much stronger claim to the continent than you do. Perhaps you could get MIchigan back, as he just wanted to go up to the Great Lakes? Would Michigan give you enough of a connection? LurkerLordB 16:52, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

How about this new picture? By the way, do not copy and paste these maps to the main one! Some one did the stupid antializing thing (probably because it was the default of their program) so now it will mess up the borders if you do that. LurkerLordB 17:18, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well? Is the new picture satisfactory for everyone? LurkerLordB 01:33, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Itsaygahi will, on principle, agree. I take it war may change how this looks in time? Mumby 20:00, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

South America
well, since we are discussing America, why not do south america too!(this is mostly here since Zagoria asked)-Lx (leave me a message) 02:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

If we will discuss South America too, I want Tierra del Fuego and the Falklands. --Galaguerra1 02:50, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

take it by all means but post a map so we can see...I put it on the map so ya if there are no objections this pretty much does it...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:56, November 10, 2011 (UTC)



I feel like it's a little bit too early so Hanthawaddy isn't going to ratify the treaty. There's nothing wrong with the treaty, just keep in mind further developments might interfere, and I would watch the South American kingdoms ;). Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:42, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

There's a lot less south American colonization than the north American one, I agree with Kenny, we shouldn't use the South American one yet. LurkerLordB 02:28, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * looks greedily at the Incan Empire* CrimsonAssassin 00:10, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am fine with this map.Zagoria 01:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Indian Wars
Fine. I will make the algorithms that you asked for. Now will my conquests be recognized? Now are you happy?

Sindh-Persian War
Next to the Location of the War: 4

Updating military: 4

Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Sindh

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Sindh territory. The Sindh empire collapses.

Multan-Persian War
Persia

Next to the Location of the War: 4 Updating military: 4 Population: 10 Stability Bonus Points: 74 Participating in War: 10 Political: 5 Ruled said area for 0 years: Chance: 3

(1689/60)*pi= 88.4 3 5833198552673 Grand Total: 110

Multan

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population (10,000 to 100,000): 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8 (Random)
 * Owned area for 151+ years: -5
 * Total= 36

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (110/(110+36)*2)-1= >100% of Multan territory. The Multan empire collapses.

Gujrat-Persian War

Persia

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 5
 * Expansion: 5
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 10 (Random)
 * Total= 55

Gujrat

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Total= 38

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (55/(55+38)*2)-1= 100% of Gujrat territory. The Gujrat empire collapses.

Persia

 * At the Location of the War:4
 * Strength:3
 * Expansion:5
 * Military Expansion:5
 * Population:4
 * Motive:10
 * Participation:5
 * Chance:5
 * Total=41

Malwa

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 2
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Total=35

Result
Overwhelming Persian Victory. Persia is entitled to (41/(41+35)*2)-1= 100% of Malwa territory. The Malwa empire collapses.

{C {C}{C Note: I actually had to do some copying from the Chinese-Rajput war. If this is illegal, tell me.

What the heck? Persia has a stability score of 29, not 74. You wouldn't use the same chance as China, due to the fact that you declared war at a different time, therefore getting a different chance. There is no way that Persia has 10 digits of population either. Also, you need to declare war on each one seperately, you can't attack them all at once. If you did, then you would probably have to divided your algorithm by however many wars there were. You better edit these ridiculous algorithms to make them follow the rules. LurkerLordB 00:19, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

LurkerLordB be nice, it's his first time :/. But yeah, there's quite a bit wrong with the algorithm. The fact that you attacked all the states at one would fall under implausibility. Population and time ruled have been phased out. And you didn't include the stability for the opponents, which is controlled by the stability curve. Leave it a little while and I'll edit it. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:31, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

While I am grateful that you used my template, please do not do that again. You do not have the same figures as I do. CrimsonAssassin 00:37, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I am very sorry. Also, each war took at different times. Can you also teach me on how to make one? I did read the rules on it, but I am confused.

RandomWriterGuy 19:21, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'm Done
I'm done. I am just confused about everything. I had made my move recently that got deleted. I made my war alogrythms but they were too implausible and got many people angry. I felt that this is enough for me. I am no longer playing Principia Moderni. I am just going to go somewhere else that is more suitible for me.

RandomWriterGuy 04:26, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

China

 * China, Anglo-Germany, Hanthawaddy: 9
 * Far from the Location of the War: 2
 * Updating military: 5
 * Stability: 74
 * Participation: 10
 * Political: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * (1708/3)*pi=1788.6 1 3417443788815


 * Total: 106

Mughal Empire

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Mughal Empire: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0.5992*8 ~ 5 pts
 * Population (10,000,000 to 99,999,999): 8
 * Stability curve (1713 - 1526 = 187 yr): 0.5992


 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 3 (Random)
 * Total: 36

Result
2 [ 106 / (106 + 33) ] - 1 = 52.518%

China has fully defeated the Mughal Empire and thus has rights to control and decide on the fate of the territories that comprise the Mughal Empire.

Discussion
I'll give Hanthawaddy the Eastern part (anything east of the eastern former Rajput border) since I know they were fighting the Mughals too. CrimsonAssassin 22:58, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't Anglo-Germany join in the War too? LurkerLordB 23:19, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Please I beg use the stability curve. And the population is 10,000,000-100,000,000. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:53, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

The above calculation is done correctly, using the stability curve. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:10, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I was also fighting, yes. Zagoria 01:39, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

How you will divide the territory?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:09, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

LxCaucassus
Lx has recently posted an addition to his 1714 post that effectively forces Finland to become a Russian vassal state against it's will. Are we going to do anything to address that?

Yank 16:54, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you have a look at his talk page, and that of the Finland Player as well. It's very willing. I undid your "undo."

Lordganon 17:46, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Persia and CrimsonAssassin
I have given up control of Persia to CrimsonAssassin of China. Because I have resigned, I demand this be recognized.

RandomWriterGuy 17:55, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

While I can't say no, this is as difficult as it can get. China has no major overland routes to Persia (if they did they would be very difficult), and no cultural ties. This would make Persia almost impossible to control. For now the bestthan can be expected is vassalization, and full annexation can be completed later. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly.think that China would annex Persia withiut resistance is impossible.the most probable option would be vassalization, but China already has two vassals. only if they either annexed Tibet or made Persia into a puppet state.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:02, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I am honored. I have been planning to annex Tibet and Manchuria at some point, though I have gotten messaged regarding my rapid expansion within the last few years. For details, read the message I left on DK's talk page. At any rate, I've been expanding pretty quickly lately and when the current Emperor croaks, I'm slowing down. Regarding vassalization, I could make Persia a vassal, though I feel that I'd need to ask other people if they think I should do this. CrimsonAssassin 03:44, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think is very good that you receive the persian territory, I also think you should join us in the crusade, then we win...NOT. Really, Had Persia any reason in game to give you the control of the nation? --Galaguerra1 04:16, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

It's sort of random for a nation just to declare themselves a vassal of another one, especially if the nations possess no cultural ties. I say Persia shouldn't be vassalized, and the Indian states conquered by Persia should re-gain their independence. LurkerLordB 14:02, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I'd say make Persia an NPC nation at this point. China's getting too big too fast. CrimsonAssassin 15:36, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Halfway Point
Congratulations to all players. By 1716, we will have completed 297 turns, which means we have reached the midway point in the game. In 1720 (which will also be the 300-turn anniversary), if anyone wants to change their color on the map, let me know. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:08, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Huzzah! Will expansion levels increase now? Maybe they should br doubled. LurkerLordB 22:28, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

That will come exclusively with industrialization. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:38, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations, everybody! I'd like to say that this is my favorite map game of all time. CrimsonAssassin 03:52, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I must say, this Map Game made me feel welcome in this wiki, and I hope to enjoy the uncoming 297 turn (well... we will play 2012 as last turn! The supporters of the theory of the end of the days in that year will be happy). Congratulations to the old and new players! --Galaguerra1 03:55, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Marinid-Vietnamese War (1697)
i just realized that i forgot posting this one.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:52, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Marinids
Total = 30
 * At the location of war:5
 * Marinid:3
 * Expansion:0
 * Military expansion:0
 * Motive (Life Or Death:10
 * Participating On War:10
 * Chance:7 (Random)
 * Ruled area for 151+ years:-5

Vietnam
Total = 30
 * Other side of the world:1
 * Vietnam:3
 * Motive (Political):5
 * Expansion:0
 * Military expansion:6
 * Chance:5 (4109/4 = 3227.2010 5
 * Editcount;4109
 * Time:2x2x0x0 = 4
 * Participating On War:10
 * Ruled area for 0 years:0

Result
30/60 = 0.5 - 0,5 = 0 {C {C}{C Draw. territory returns to status quo ante bellum.

Discussion
Stability is not counted because the war was in 1697, when stability wasn't estabilished yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:19, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Return
The reason I had resigned because my conquests were not recognized and my alogythms were not plausible. During my temporary resignation, I thought of what I had done and I thought I should re-join the game. I did see that my conquests were finally recognized in the map, so I thought I should rejoin the game. Also, I really do want to apoligize for the implausbiel alogythms I made. I promise to be more plausible.

RandomWriterGuy 19:17, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back... LurkerLordB 20:18, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back! But if I were you I would seriously slow down the invasions. The Indian States aren't going anywhere, and if you continue too many invasions, you will end up with a mod disaster or rebellion that will cause you to ragequit… Be careful. There is more to this game than expansion, and there is also power and economic prosperity that will help you in the long run. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:58, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back. I am rather relieved that you chose to come back; I was put in a sort of difficult situation regarding making you a vassal. CrimsonAssassin 03:42, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Swedish Nobility

 * Close to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden(L)/Estonia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/Scotland(M): 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Stability: (79)-Should be lowered due to civil war and numerous nations terminating their trade routes)
 * Motive (Political): 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Editcount:1119
 * Time:1*1*1*7=7
 * 1119/7=159.857143*pi=502.206025
 * Total=30+(79)=(109)

Finland

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Finland(L)/Russia(L)/Lithuania(L)Swedish Loyalists(M)/Hungary (S)/Naples(M)/Papal States(MV)/France(M)/Kazakhstan(MV)/South Armenia(SV): 29
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Stability: 6(or 64)
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:9
 * Editcount: 2589
 * Time= 1*1*1*2=2
 * 2589/2= 1294.5*pi=4 066.79169
 * Total=71(129)

Result
????

Discussion
Scandinator, you will need to update Finland's stability first, as you forgot their trade routes with Naples & via the northwest passage in the calculations. Also, Sweden's stability should be lowered on account of having a civil conflict, if it hasn't been already. LurkerLordB 01:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

@LurkerLorkB. Finland has no MAJOR trade routes via the Northeast Passage or one to Naples. If you consider it a nation of less than a million people could not possibly have much to offer...Scandinator 01:41, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I stated in-game that Naples asked to make a trade route with Finland, and they agreed. A trade route was established, you can stop trying to retcon in-game events. Also, they have the northeast passage, as Russia stated. Also, how is the Anglo-german route closed? The Anglo-Germans have ports on the Baltic, you cannot claim to have closed the Danish straights on them. You need to stop trying to restrict trade with Finland, its obvious that you are doing it solely to lower their stability score so that you can retake them in one war and get around your punishment LurkerLordB 02:23, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Actualy, doing a war with FInland, since their confederation with Russia resulted in war with russia whn you invade finland, so...think about hat for a sec...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I still think Scandinator is abusing his moderator powers yet. He just says "oh, no one would want to trade with Finland) and takes away all of the northeast passage trade routes, then he uses his "stability master" powers to attempt to shut down the Neapolitan and AGC trade routes with them as well! LurkerLordB 04:50, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Scan, you are abusing your powers. Not only that, but those trade routes have been declared. Try that again and you will have time to think about it. I am sick of your behavior. Lordganon 07:35, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Like Kenny said. Finland to Naples trade goes via AGC. There is no direct route so therefore no trade route.Scandinator 11:27, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary supports Finland, only giving supplies.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Is Everyone forgetting that Russia and FInland are now ina Confederation? One military, one power, two flags. it is in my understanding that FInland would get the Russian Stability number becuse Russia is kind of close and Russia has much more troops going to the borders to reinforce them.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

No, he did not say that.

It is painfully obvious that such a route is possible, by simply looking at that list.

Lx, both are still played by separate players. Thus, two numbers.

Lordganon 15:25, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't the stability score of Sweden be much lower, as they are currently in a civil war? Perhaps divided in two, to show that they are only part of Sweden, not the whole thing? LurkerLordB 16:49, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with Neapolitan-Finnish trade as long as the same ships that are leaving Naples are the ones entering Helsinki. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:13, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I actually put that it was the same ships, Naples bought them so that Sweden wouldn't be able to tax them the special Finnish tax. LurkerLordB 21:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Okay I'm going to just executively use the stability curve. Sweden, 20 bonus points. Finland, 8 bonus points. The formula I used was 5/2*d^1.25/1.25^d, where d is in decades ruled. I know I had the formula as without the 5/2 and I discovered that made my calculations flawed, because I accidentally left it out. The stability curve is 100% objective, so for now we're going to use it, until we can get an objective stability system. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:48, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

The Commonwealth is also in the war on Finlands side, as before I left for 3 days I put my armies at Russia's command.Zagoria 04:23, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking at the scores, and it seems that no matter what Scandinator loses. And didn't this war end already?

Yank 06:29, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it would be best just to leave the war alone, but it's up to Scandinator and Kogasa. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:23, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

???

Errr.... Scan's own posts on the page declare this thing over. No result is obvious.

Lordganon 06:36, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Mapmaking
@Collie, you're a talented and dedicated mapmaker but what I don't get is how you cannot understand that you need to check the map to see if anyone uploaded over it. This is at least the 5th time I had to tell you. I just redid the entire map for 1715 because I had smoothed out the coastlines a bit in 1710………… Do you not understand this? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:47, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot to check, like the last times.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:33, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: can you explain me why the map had 82 colors last time and now there are 379?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:05, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Either it was resized in the wrong way, or someone drew/filled in a spot with antializing enabled, which creates lots of different shades blending colors together at the borders. LurkerLordB 16:44, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

It May be. because i already saw two sections of a state bordering Yemen being in different colors, in the way that you wouldn't notice until you tried to fill it with other color, black spots on the littoral of the Inca, the area surrounding Neos Preveza having a different shade of black, etc...(right now, all those errors are corrected, but they were the only that i saw until now)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:25, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

It probably has to do with the black spots. When I smoothed off the coastlines, there was still some stuff left at the edge of the fringe, and although I tried to remove them there are still some left over. This can probably be fixed within the next few maps as you continue to notice the errors. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:34, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Collie, I found your problem. You have too many colors (more than 64) for the color counter to read them. So what I suggest (this is what I do) is copying a small chunk of the map that you are taking the pixel amount for, from Paint or whatever. Then go to ImageJ and press Ctrl+V to paste it. It should count correctly at that point, because there are less colors. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:19, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

It worked now, thanks.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:17, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

The Map Changelog

 * I've added Yemen expansion to the north-west to the map. Doctor261 11:32, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * please, don't disrupt the map format like that, I was already adding it to the 1720 map. and, please, take note that expansion on grey areas is half of certain number, so 20 px will be counted as 10 px in fact.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:08, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * You should probably leave map-making on the main map up to Collie & Kenny. You can make your own map to show what you want, but don't edit the main map. Last time someone did that, it caused great confusion. LurkerLordB 16:45, November 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry :( I just didn't find it in the rules :( Doctor261 18:16, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a section "Maps" on the rules page.However, i recommend that you leave the maps to me and tell me if there is something wrong.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:29, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

???… Expansion isn't really limited by pixellage as it is for colonies, so you can just write "Yemen expands northwest." And technically you are allowed to edit the map for your own country (although it's not that common and not necessarily recommended), but if it's a change for 1716, for example, it shouldn't go on the 1715 map. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:12, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Fifth Russo-Swedish War, Great Northern Continuation War, or the Finnish War of Sovereignty.
Just keep it on the main algorithm in the brackets and such, we don't need so much space taken up on the page by having the exact same algorithm with one set of parentheses removed twice on the same page. LurkerLordB 19:22, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Quick Note
For any further algorithms, the wars should be written with years (1701-) or (1701-1714), just to make the stability curve and other things easier to calculate. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:15, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Overcomplicated Code
Why do we need the needlessly complicated code for everthing we do? It used to be that we used the headings provided to us, and started each comment with a "*". Much of the time it seems like this fancy code screws up the game. Why can't we go back to basics and leave this code mess behind us?

Yank 04:50, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

How it screws the game?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:28, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

I think usually its just someone whose computer inserts HTML for them without them knowing, entirely on accident. It usually doesn't happen to me because I edit in code form instead of the Wikia form. As a matter of policy I almost always rollback the edits because I don't want to deal with the code. Just a note for Zagoria and Scandinator, I reverted your edits, even though it was Zagoria's fault :P <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:50, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I usually check to see if it inserts it, but this time I just checked quickly and where Iooked had no code.Zagoria 14:30, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Nation Pages
Most players of their map game have their own pages for their nations. Is it a requirement to make a nation-page for this Map Game?

RandomWriterGuy 23:09, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Officially, it is a requirement, although it's not really enforced at all. It would be nice to make a page, but no one really cares if you don't. LurkerLordB 23:11, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah it's required. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:13, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Also, it allows me to work easier on stability; speaking of which I need to update it...Scandinator 04:46, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Updated Industralisation
An updated map of the industrial process. Scandinator 10:50, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
The area around Beijing should be red due to a deal I had with Russia a few years back. CrimsonAssassin 13:42, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

That is true, it was for a "recolutionary piece of technology" to only be used in the capital, that tech is the steam engine, thus accelerating industrialization in Beijing.-Lx <sup style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">(leave me a message) 14:29, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

If everyone made a deal with Russia, then we'd all be industrialized by 1800. Sorry, but you just have to wait. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:55, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

But is there any way to speed up the industrialization?Flagmania 16:10, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

New Members
Wow.

I've read through the rules of this map game, and it seems awesome!

Whats the policy on new members though? I'm thinking about joining as Ethiopia.

Flagmania 18:16, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

You can join as which nation that is not listed as occupied on the members list.so, you can join as Ethiopia.and, be plausible.Ethiopia was recently unifided following a long period of civil disarray.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:41, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks so much!66.142.215.81 20:04, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Maya leftover
Wait...Now i realized that there are two unclaimed Mayan colonies on Java. what will happen to them?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:07, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

I guess they could be equated to small kingdoms. Let's call the one on the left Kelapa, and the one on the right Bali. Let's just say they slowly became independent, without a particular struggle, and are ruled by a Mayan royal family that is deeply intermarried with local upper classes. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:58, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Static West Africa
I just noticed that Senegal, Wolof, and the other West African nations haven't really been doing anything for the entire game. It is a bit unrealistic for them all to peacefully coexist and not war or expand at all. The South American kingdoms have been expanding and stuff by moderator actions, so maybe the West-African nations should too. LurkerLordB 23:33, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Leave me to it.Scandinator 06:21, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. the states on what today are Ghana, Benin, Togo, were constantly in war by the 17th century.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:09, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

You know, If it seems a bit unrealistic for there to be massive changes in borders in one year, you could always say that "communications between the west African states and the rest of the world have been restored, and the rest of the world discovers that...." LurkerLordB 23:56, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

No I'll deal with it. Please do not worry as it will be plausable.Scandinator 05:04, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Mughal Empire Division
Sorry it took so long for me to get the map to you guys. I've been super busy lately. At any rate, I purposefully boxed myself in so I don't get the urge to take any more of India. Again, sorry for the delay. CrimsonAssassin 13:45, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I tweaked the border a bit. Sorry to Zagoria, but a lot of the territory around the port of Laskreng (I think it's around OTL Paradip) is culturally and economically close to Bengal. I would gladly support Anglo-German expansion inland. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:17, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Scandinator
I think Scandinator just violated a rule. I thought that the rules prohibited unrealistic incorpartions. I just think that Hawaii is just too far from the Swedish colony of Asgard to be realistic It'd be more realistic for them to annex the former Japanese colony in Washington.

Yank 17:11, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree. There is no way that those two territories could be part of the same colony, they are too far apart. That would be like Venice trying to combine their Bahamas colony with their South American one. Unrealistic. LurkerLordB 17:44, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I thought it could work, but ... What are your suggestions? - Scandinator on iPhone

If you can't make another colony, you could always say that there were enough Koreans on Hawaii for it to be a country of its own, and then make it a puppet state. LurkerLordB 23:46, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Pita specifically stated that Joseon will retain contact with his colonies, so the only method of conquest would be through war or diplomacy with Joseon. And I would say the colonies are only slightly too far off, they are actually closer then they would seem. It is true that in OTL we have had arrangements such as the Philippines being governed from Mexico City. But this is because it was easier to access Manila via Acapulco.

I am just going to state that Hawaii is pretty isolated in general, so it's main function would be to connect Asia and the Americas. There really is no other significance that would be relevant for this time period. So if anything Hawaii's colony should be connected to an area with which Hawaii would strategically benefit. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:13, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, a tsunami destroyed the Hawaii colony a while ago. CrimsonAssassin 00:23, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Link me. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:48, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Re-reading it, it says New Denmark was destroyed by an huge earthquake and Hawaii was hit by the tsunami. I HAVE PROOF!

CrimsonAssassin 04:56, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Only New Denmark was destroyed, the other colonies, like Hawaii, just had expansion halted for 3 years as they rebuilt. So no, it was not destroyed. LurkerLordB 05:03, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

This is what happens when I try reading crap late at night. Disregard what I had said. CrimsonAssassin 05:11, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

New Denmark rebuilt after 15 years with Swedish help.Scandinator 05:21, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

The only one user still around would really benefit from Hawaii's annexation. And it's Crim. He needs Hawaii to serve as a link between China and California. {C {C}{C Yank 18:54, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

A lot of Asian nations need it for their colonies. I was hoping to create a port open to everyone who needs to cross the Pacific. CrimsonAssassin 16:03, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Ethiopia

 * Close to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Ethiopia(L)/Naples(S)/Sweden(M)/Netherlands(SV)/Scotland(SV)/Estonia(SV): 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 1
 * Stability: 7
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Editcount:144
 * Time:2*1*2*5=20
 * (144/20)*pi=22.6194671
 * Total= 43

Sennar

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Sennae(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 200^1.25/1.25^200*2.5*6=4
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:2
 * Total=35

Result
Ethiopian Victory. Ethiopia is entitled to (43/(43+35)*2)-1=10.26% of Sennar

Discussion
I'm going to look back at the rules............Flagmania 21:30, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I did this for you... you can basically just take all of Sennar, although it would probably take you 6 years to take all of it. LurkerLordB 00:34, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

The stability curve is only for the non-player nations. Stability is back in.Scandinator 08:10, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oh good. Was the stuff that was discussed with Kenny what was changed? Anyways, this means it would probably take you a couple tries to attack Sennar. I think you should have a war for 5 years, get the 10%, and then build up your military and increase trade before the next attack, then you will be able to crush Sennar. LurkerLordB 14:16, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Okay-thanks for your advice. I'll keep the war going and branch out to other nations.

Wait...I can't get the 10% now, I have to wait 5 years?-Flagmania

No, you can get it now, but you have to make the war realistic, no war will last only 1 year, 5 years is realistic, LurkerLordB 22:32, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'd like to confirm the changes first just so I know what's going on… I kind of was the one to pull the plug on the stability, so I might want to be the one to re-approve it before it goes back to use. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:15, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think I'll have it last 3-4 years, simply because I have so much stuff to do (get coastal territories, urbanize, centralize government, give the emperor complete power, develope ethiopian culture).Flagmania 01:23, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Persia

 * Next to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Persia(L):4
 * Expansion:-2
 * Military Expansion:2
 * Stability:28
 * Motive: (Religious) 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * Editcount: 719
 * 4*5=20
 * 719/20xpi =13.665928


 * Total=60

Shahrzur

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability:36
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 1 (Random)
 * Total= 65

Result
Shahrzur victory

Discussion
The war has begun again ladies and gentlemen! RandomWriterGuy 04:07, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

You probably will want to get a lot of allies to help you take down Shahrzur. Currently, Naples is too busy fighting Incas to help you. Maybe you could get Russia or China or someone else to help you? A couple allies should be enough to win, although I don't know if it will be enough to topple the government (unless you get a lot of allies, enough to win by 11%). LurkerLordB 04:27, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Iberian War
Spain
 * Next to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Spain(L)/Sweden(M)/Estonia(SV)/Netherlands(SV)/Scotland(MV):11
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:10
 * Stability:34
 * Motive: (Political) 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Editcount: 21
 * 22:31=12
 * 21/12xpi =5.49778


 * Total=84

Portugal

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Portugal(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 51.5^1.25/1.25^51.5*2.5*7=.024= 0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Total= 34

Result
Spainish victory. Spain can annex (84/(84+34)*2)-1= 42.37%. Spain can topple the current ruler of Portugal.

Sweden

 * On the other side of the world: 1
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden(L)/Estonia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/Scotland(MV)/China(M)/New Hanthawaddy(SV)/Naples(M)/Papal States (SV)/Jerusalem(SV)/France(M)/Spain(M):27
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:10
 * Stability:91
 * Motive: (Religious) 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Editcount: 712
 * 05:48=160
 * 21/12xpi =13.980087


 * Total=155

Inca

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Inca(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: (28.7^1.25/1.25^28.7)*2.5*7=1.923415= 2
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 2 (Random)
 * Total= 33*1.5=50

Result
Swedish victory. Sweden can annex (155/(155+50)*2)-1= 51.96%. Sweden can topple the current ruler of the Incan Empire.

Discussion
Their score can't be 33. They are in civil disarray, meaning that you must multiply their score by 1,5.and somebody divide their territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:46, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Current division: ]LurkerLordB 22:48, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I approve of this. Leave the Incans with Peru. 166.248.129.254 23:00, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Final division up. Hanthawaddy and Spainish claims are in as well.Scandinator 23:55, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Technically, that tiny grey area up north wasn't part of the main Incan Empire, but I doubt it would be able to stand against Hanthawaddy, especially with Spanish help. Poor Deansims, looks like he has lost his nation. :(. He could take a new nation now, right? LurkerLordB 00:09, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Meddling Italy
Why is it that the Italian states cannot stay out of Vietnamese business? First the aborted First Vietnamese-Irish War, and now the Vietnamese-Korean War. It's not like I go out of my way to meddle with the affairs of Venice of Naples. In fact, LurkerLord's involvement in this latest interferrance is an outrage, as I had helped the Neapolitan government survive their civil war. Why he decied to repay me by stabbing me in the back is a mystery. Let me make myself clear. I don't want to fight Venice or Naples. I have no feud with them.

Yank 22:52, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Venice wants a fight with you. You threaten my people, insult my queen and bring the severed heads of... wait a moment, wrong era. You took over Ireland, when the Venetians already stated their positions. You retain land in europe, when the Venetians find it an insult. You now attack their ally Joseon, whom they had aided before their fall into chaos. They will not stand for it, the Vietnamese can expect an Italian storm coming right at them. Kunarian 22:58, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

What the heck? Where did I ever state that Naples was helping Venice? I just stated that they were glad Venice was stabilized again and that Fuzolia, which is not under Neapolitan rule and is an enemy to Naples would join up with Venice for protection. I was going to help Vietnam in the war against Joseon, until you posted this! LurkerLordB 23:03, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly Venice was an ally of Joseon before the player left. Kunarian 23:11, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

You know Kunarian, you have reminded me why I treasured the month of your ban. The Vietnamese have attempted to coesist peacefully with the Venetians, but you refuse to "play nice". The behavior of the Venetians is more suited to a band of barbarians, rather than the ''"Most Serene Republic of Venice". ''If you are so angry at Asian counties owning European territory, then why aren't you harping at Hathawaddy? They own Iceland and parts of Norway. You do not get to dictate what people get to do in this map game. If you can't get that through your head you shouldn't be playing. And how is slaughtering the (non-existant) Vietnamese population of Venice supposed to get them to back down? It's more likely to make them want to kick your ass six ways from Sunday.

Yank 23:13, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I still want to know why you consider Naples to be interfering with Vietnam. I stated nothing of the sort. LurkerLordB 23:15, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I am not dictating anything. I am simply playing Venice. If you feel dictated then maybe you should back down. Also that asskicking from Venice will taste sweeter than cherry pie with whipped cream and sugar on the side. But yeah, we are ready for war, question is are you? Kunarian 23:19, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Also you should not repeatedly correct posts trying to cover stuff up. You should post a reply (IC) that states that a mistake was made. Kunarian 23:25, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I aplogize for lumping you in with Kunarian. I was just so frustrated with Kunarian interferring with Vietnamese business again that didn't see that you had nothing to do with it. The trade ban was mutual. That means that Venice was also devoid of Vietnamese traders. If "true christians" believe that mass murder is the only was to peace, then I think we should weep for humanity.

Yank 23:33, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

And "true christians" would not really use one or two groups of criminals actions to justify an invasion where you destroy a whole christian society and destroy a culture. Kunarian 23:38, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

But anyway you are taking too much of this personally. Kunarian 23:39, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be perfectly willing to turn the war into a second war with the Marinids if you are willing to give an apology to the relatives of the Vietnamese traders murdered on Venetian soil.

Yank 23:52, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I highly doubt you would have won the hypothetical Vietnamese-Venetian War, as the Vietnamese have spent twelve years rearming, and you have only spent one.

Yank 23:54, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Plus Vietnam has a much higher stability. LurkerLordB 00:02, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Keep this in character guys, it will prevent the argument from getting out of hand… <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:17, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that if the Vietnamese attacked me you would win either, more so If you attack Joseon, Then they are also involved. No apologies will be made, Venice lives on its feet, it doesn't die on its knees like the Vietnamese. However in the good faith of ending conflict, Venice will leave your european land alone and will not dispute it, should you leave Joseon alone, if it's colonies you want then feel free to invade the colonies, but the colonies only. Any mainland invasion of Joseon or Joseon Japan will be dealt with by the Venetians. I will slow down the damage between the two nations however the conflict between the people cannot stop only that between our militaries. Kunarian 01:17, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Also LurkerlordB you can't post for Yank, despite the good intentions. Kunarian 01:08, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't post for Yank, I re-added what he posted on his own that you deleted of the page. Deleting other people's turns off of the page is probably against the rules Kunarian, so if I were you I would stop that. LurkerLordB 15:15, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to meddle on this, but why are you trying to step to him again?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:47, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Me? I'm simply doing what Venice would have done if a nation it had been protecting had been destroyed and its culture replaced with a phoney Viet-Irish Culture. Honestly its as if I am the only one not bring OOC stuff IC and vice versa. Kunarian 18:16, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I understand about Ireland, but Joseon?i don't understand why a European nation would care about what was happening on Far Eastern Asia at the time, unless it was about colonies, and i don't remember you sigining any alliance with joseon to justify it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:49, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Very true, maybe if Yank fights a colonial war then says that the north japanese peacefully surrendered instead of fighting then Venice would have little reason to try and fued over that. Also it was an informal alliance. Kunarian 20:01, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I had no intention of invading Joseon proper, only the colonies. I don't know how you can allow me to attack their colonies, and yet not allow me to attack "Joseon Japan". Let me break it to you. Joseon's territory in Japan is a colony, and so is fair game. I plan on adding the territory to Nippon, as the Nipponese have wanted to reunite former Japan under its flag.

Yank 15:51, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Lurker quite simply if he would post randomly in an unorganised way, which causes my edit to accidentally undo what he has posted then it is his fualt. The Nipponese might as well be the Vietnamese theres no difference culture wise, the old japanese culture is gone exterminated by your schoolings. 82.27.26.38 16:51, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Kun, I really don't care about your excuse for acting this being that you are "in character." You need to watch your tongue, and check your behavior. I suggest you cut it out. Lordganon 17:54, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Point out what I have done wrong please then tell me how it is worse than what he has written, which was not in character but simply because he could not deal with the repurcussions of thumbing his nose at Venice in game.

I know you don't like me but be unbiased about this. Kunarian 17:58, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

I don't care about either one of you one way or the other.

You need to drop your attitude. I don't care about any "thumbing." You need to cut it out. End of discussion.

Lordganon 18:52, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Cut what out? you need to tell me or how can I? Its simple just tell me. Kunarian 18:59, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Look guys, your nations seem not to like each other at all. But don't make this a personal thing. It's one to say "The King of my nation announces that your nation is a horrible place" but its quite another to say "Your a horrible person".User:Flagmania

Its ok if Venice wants to be an annoying nation that gets in everyone elses business, but (and I'm not accusing anyone of this) its not ok to be specifically annoying and/or harrassing a player.-Flag

I have one thing to say, Venice has the right to its views, that I have noiced have been: a nation has no right to fight its way to sovreignty of another nation. period, especialy christian nations, and it has the right to be a nation that believes such. but what I would like to see is that with the change of a leader, some change in policy regarding meddling in others buisness, maybe a neutrality act or become a very expansionist nation for one ruler's reign. If venice did that, then I doubt anybody would have a problem with its attitude. -Lx (leave me a message) 00:58, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Righto, I'll play a more expansionary nation. And flag thanks for finally getting it. 82.27.28.206 07:09, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Korean War (1730)
This is a section for the algorithm for the Korean War. Just so Kunarian knows the war will take place mainly in Joseon's colonies, and will not involve the Korean homeland so that if/when Pita returns he can go back to playing.

Yank 15:57, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

That means it will just be political for Joseon, not life or death. It would be either political for Vietnam, or maybe social/moral if you stress the uniting the Japanese culture part as the main cause. If Venice interferes, the Papal States will help Vietnam. LurkerLordB 16:42, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Venice will fight if you touch free Japan, You already have destroyed the Japanese culture and replaced it with a vietnamese proxy culture, you will not be so lucky this time. I suggest that you be careful when deciding to commit yourself. 82.27.26.38 16:51, November 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Kunarian, stop making up baseless lies for the sole purpose of demonizing Vietnam. He posted nothing saying that they were destroying or even changing Nipponese culture at all. You need to stop with this sort of behavior now, I am sick of you making up lies against Yank due to your apparent vendetta against him for no reason whatsoever. LurkerLordB 18:32, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

In fact, the war should be phrased as "Vietnam vs. Joseon Colonial Administration," and it would be life or death. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:14, November 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't Pitakang say that Joseon would keep in touch with the colonies, so they would fight Joseon themselves? LurkerLordB 18:32, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

"Free Japan"? Are you serious? Northern Japan is Joseon colony, therefore they have had Joseon's culture imposed on them. Nippon is a vassal state, and so has a level of cultural autonamy similar to the OTL Dominions of the British Commonwealth. Plus I plan on having them declare independance at the earliest possible moment, and I want the Japanese Home Islands reunified before I do so. And the Vietnamese hardly "destroyed" the Japanese culture. If you paid the slightest bit of attention to what I posted, you would know I had the Vietnamese highly base their culture on Japanese culture. They are a semi-independant vassals state, and the Vietnamese allow them to practice their culture without persecution. Which is more than can be said about Joseon's colony. Let me ask you something Kunarian. Do you have a psychological need to butt heads with me on everything I do? I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm being overly confrontational, but I have a head cold, and am in no mood to deal with Kunarian's "delightful" (*sarcastic*) antics. It's just that its not fun playing with someone who believes that every major thing you do is reason to try to smash everything you built.

Yank 01:11, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I think Kunarian has something against you personally Yank, because this level of continued animosity is over the top, he seems to be ignoring all other expansion by other nations to focus solely on Vietnam, this seems like it is some sort of Vendetta. LurkerLordB 18:32, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

The war has officially begun. I think I'll be needing that algorithym now.

Yank 04:03, November 27, 2011 (UTC) The war has begun. That means we definitely need the algorithm. It's getting iritating that I'm getting no response. It's like the Marinid War all over again.

Yank 20:58, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Some Offtop stuff
http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4470803/What_we_talk_about_on_PM

Been mucking around with Wordle for a while, so decided to get one to show what we talk about, the bigger the word the more its used! Kunarian 17:33, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

And heres what went on in 1726 accidentally named it 1727, but hey have a look, two big words are arguing. :D http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4470819/1727_ Kunarian 17:37, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

and one last one for today, heres whats been going on since 1720. Remember bigger the word the more its said http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4470830/since_1720 Kunarian 17:41, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

LOL, how am I the main interest? Funny LurkerLordB 18:35, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

People must have been saying Naples alot. That or you sneaked in a couple every now and agian knowing I would one day do this. :P 82.14.50.56 18:46, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4475736/Incan_Fall theres another, showing the Incans fall and what we were thinking. :D Kunarian 11:39, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

1690-1719 Change
I want to give you some news about a change I made in the 1690-1719 section of the map game. While thinking of the Mamuluk invasion, I realized since Persia was Muslim, I really doubt they would really invade the Mamuluks. I did change things up in that section, in which the Persian emperor is converted to Christianity and turns the country from an Islamic country into a Christian country. I did this because things never made sense when the Persians supported the crusades. RandomWriterGuy 20:38, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

NONONONO!!! There is already a reason that we have and also NEVER change the archives without permission. The reason is that Persia is Shi'ite Muslim and the Mamluks are Sunni Muslim (kind of like Orthodox and roman Catholic difference - similar yet different).Scandinator 08:44, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

You are not allowed to modify your past turns other than fixing spelling mistakes or something. LurkerLordB 17:14, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I remember one time that this happened.Axis vs Allies.comes in a guy named AnonymousHistoryGuy, he takes Persia, changes the previous turns, already archived, to say that Afghanistan united with Persia in 1948, when he enters in 1951.result: he was banned.his constant implausibility also helped. {C}{C So, don't change the past. if we allowed it, we would be seting a precedent.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:20, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Please forgive me. I never knew this wasn't allowed. The reason I did this was because Persia supporting a Christian Crusade would be ASB since Persia's muslim. I changed it so that the balance could be more even. RandomWriterGuy 03:34, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Public scholing, Helthcare, and the such
ok...Public healthcare, public schooling and many governement social security programs were made because of the Industrial REvolution, Etheopia's not even close to that! It was beond peoples wildest dreams to have fre schools and medical expenses, now you're just pushing the limits of plausibility! Nations of the world, the only reson we had mandatory schooling is in part trying to prevent child labor and in part trying to conform people at a young age to be good sodiers, only talk when they have permission, stand in lines, trait, be diciplined, etc... but mostly it ws because people started frowning upon the idea of child labor... and public health plans only came into thought in the 1830s was it? Anyway, as I said, I believe that this is pushing the limits...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:20, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. France and Ethiopia are way beyond their times, I don't think that any nation could have such a development currently, not even Russia has industrialized enough. LurkerLordB 18:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well,as I tried to explain before, the public schools in Ethiopia (its spelled E-T-H-I-O-P-I-A not Athopia, Etheopia, Aetheipia, or Ethoipa) were in this time period public in name only. Their more like somewhat centralized schools for nobles' children. And (I realized I didn't put this in their before) they're not really mandatory.

If this is still too implausible though, tell me and I'll tweak it to make it more plausible.Flagmania 18:35, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

When I say "health plan" I don't mean a plan in the modern scence. I'm just saying that the State is expendind more money to the health of the citzens --Galaguerra1 19:22, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Conquest of New Songhay (1725 - 1729)
I just create this section to rembember the mods that they should do the algorythm --Galaguerra1 19:30, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

New Songhay
Total:37
 * At the location of war:5
 * New Songhay (L):4
 * Military development:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Life or Death:10
 * Participating:10
 * Chance (random):4
 * Stability: 24,1^1,25/1,25^24,1x2x5x7 =  4 ,3154693695536661229005651577793

France
Total:106
 * Far from the location of war:2
 * France(L), Algeria (MV), Arabia (MV), Burgundy (MV), Spain (M):13
 * Military development:3
 * Expansion: -1
 * Political:5
 * Participating:10
 * Stability:66
 * Chance:259/120 x pi = 6,7 8 060414
 * Editcount:259
 * Time:1x6x4x5 = 120

Result
106/143 - 0.5 x 2 = 0,48251748251748251748251748251748 Crushing French Victory.France has rgiht to 48,2% of territory, and therefore, can overthrow the current Neo-Songhayan government.

Discussion
Stability for New Songhay is to be defined, since that stability curve model does not make sense to me, and Expansion to France also is to be defined, since i don't know if the Crusades count as expansion.if so, it would be -7.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:50, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I have the support of my two vassal states: Arabia and Algeria. --Galaguerra1 20:54, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Now Spain is supporting me ^^ The crusade was a conquest, Does it counts as a expansion?--Galaguerra1 04:21, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

New Songhay was estabilished in 1485.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:59, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Wait, i got it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:38, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

West Africa Changes
Perhaps, after New Songhay is conquered, we could say something like "with communication restored with the west African kingdoms, mapmakers realize that the kingdoms have changed their borders greatly over the years and now look like [insert map]". This would make it more realistic, as it is strange that their borders would stay the same even after so long. I'll make a possible new map for the divisions if we decide to do this. LurkerLordB 00:22, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have a question: how historical do we want this? Do we want what actually happened during this time, or will we assume that the different occurences that have happened across the globe have resulted in a butterfly affect making west africa nothing like its OTL equivalent? If the latter, I can make a map, but if not, maybe someone else with more knowledge should. LurkerLordB 04:01, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

lets just assume trade and expansionism actualy got adopted by African kings and this happened:



Everyone ok with this?-Lx (leave me a message) 04:29, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

No, New Songhay would remain the same as ever due to not wanting to interfere with the French war that is going on right now. Such dramatic increases of size probably would have been noticed by the Europeans, I was thinking that they would be a little less dramatic. LurkerLordB 04:34, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree with the Luker's proposal. By the way, When will we put a new lavel map on the top of tha page? Some nations have appear and others disappear since the age in which it map was created. --Galaguerra1 04:38, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Here is the map with Labels:

LurkerLordB 04:41, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I have another idea, taking into account that well, some ations would like to take over others...-Lx (leave me a message) 04:57, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think that i'll use LurkerLordB's proposal at first.but is a big change, so it will take maybe 10/20 years to be achieved. since nations would like to take over others, this would have been done some 30/40 years after the first change,a t least, then we can go with Lx's second proposal.My only change to it would be that Benin annexes Borgu, not the opposite.But we better start to make changes right now.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:22, November 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, my idea was that it was unrealistic for the kingdoms to not have changed over the course of the game, so they would say that communications were restored when the French invaded New Songhay thereby they can add all the changes that have occured over the past 100 years or so to the map all ar once. LurkerLordB 15:19, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and Darfur is too way out west from its location.it should be in OTL Sudan, or something, not in the OTL Chad.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:29, November 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh. On the wikipedia article about the little nation that was there before it said they were a tribe of darfur, so I assumed it was there. LurkerLordB 15:19, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

How about we leave it to me. I won't say how yet, but by 1760 there will only be around 5 or 6 left at most and it will unfold in front of everyone. DK, it's your choice.Scandinator 12:18, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

5 or 6 states in a whole continet is too little.if this is at best, even worse, since probably it will be left only 2 or 3 states on the whole continent, on worst case.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:21, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think that it would be better to have the "communications restored" than having a the African nations suddenly come alive and start doing stuff. I agree with Collie, we need a lot of states. Scandinator, if you have any other ideas for the changes, feel free to post the new image here, but I think everyone should post their sample maps and we can decide what to do rather than just going "leave it to me" and not letting any one else give any ideas. You are in charge of a bunch of stuff already Scandinator, maybe you should let other people contribute some as well. LurkerLordB 16:58, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea, but preferably we don't have states named "North Kongo" and stuff. It should be named after the people living there or the capital city. Also, it would be implausible for all the states to be close to the same size, so we should have some more along the lines of city-states. But other than that, I'll leave this to the community to discuss. Unless this starts becoming a huge argument, in which I'll just take this into my own hands. Scandinator, feel free to help out, but don't create too many huge massive mega-empires please… <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:27, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think that Akon may take the burgundian colony of Cote d'Ivoire. I think Kenny is right, the African continent is still more primitive than Europe, so not all the state have grown, and the most of them must be city-states. --Galaguerra1 20:05, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest that Songhai remains whole and grows.-Scandinator

Yeah, but some large states ought to break up, that makes it realistic of rise and fall of Empires, so that is why I had Songhay grow and then split. Mega Empires is a bit unrealistic, even though it makes it easier to conquer lots of territory. LurkerLordB 21:58, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I made a new version, making some of the nations smaller like Kenny said, and changing a few of the names. If no one objects to the new changes, I will implement the "communications restored" strategy, as a moderator event. After that, we can slowly over the course of a few decades go to Lx's second idea. LurkerLordB 02:49, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Map changes
This is from 1717

Charles seizes the nobles assets and gifts 250,000 kronar to Finland as conpensation. He will give a furhter 250,000 kronar if the Finns give Sweden a strip of land 100 km wide (14 px) next to the Hanthawaddian colony to russia.
 * Finland accepts and gives them the land as well.

{C}{C Can we add it to the map.Scandinator 12:18, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

"Next to the Hanthawaddian colony to Russia"?Are you giving this strip of land to Sweden or Russia?and, how this strip of land must be?reaching the littoral, or other thing?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:55, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think he meant that it was next to Russia. And giving it to Sweden. Doctor261 17:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

I think something like this...Scandinator 21:36, November 26, 2011 (UTC)



Hungary
Total:159
 * Near the loaction of war:3
 * Strength: Hungary (L), Greece (MV), Egypt (MV), France (M), Arabia (MV), Algeria (MV), Sweden(S), Netherlands(SV), Scotland(MV), Estonia(SV), Persia (M):25
 * Military development:8
 * Expansion:0
 * Participating:10
 * Stability:99
 * Political:5
 * Chance:2099/210 x pi = 31,400 9 666
 * Editcount:2099
 * Time:0x6x5x7

Mamluks
Total = 37 x 1.5 = 55,5
 * At the location of war:5
 * Strength: Mamluk (L):4
 * Military development:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Participating:10
 * Stability: 48^1,25/1,25^48 x 2,5 x 7 = 0,049307044458438858629986173937
 * Life Or Death:10
 * Chance:8 (random)

Result
Crushing Hungarian Victory. Hungary can annex (159/214,5)*2-1 = 48.2517% of Mamluk territory. The Mamluk government collapses.

Discussion
i would advise that not too many people enter, since for countries on civil disarray the formula is something like this; {C}{C 1 - 100-result of first algorythm {C}{C 2 - result of the second algorythm as a percentage of the first result.subtract this percentage from the first result.

So, if too many people enter, probably we will not get all the territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:18, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

The islamic states were supporting the Mamluks because I was attacking the "Rom of the Islam" (Mecca), but now I own the holy land of the Islam, and the Mamluks are in a major civil disarray, so, they should be alone in this war... --Galaguerra1 07:33, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Now there is 41% of 69,4.we only have 40% left. this means that we should stop by those three nations (Sweden, Hungary and France), else we are going to get a result below 33%.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:08, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Cool. now nobody else enter, besides those who already entered--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:52, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden

 * Far from the location of the War: 2
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden(L)/Ethiopia(M)/Netherlands(SV)/Scotland(SV)/Estonia(SV): 10
 * Expansion: -2
 * Military Expansion: 8
 * Stability: 91
 * Motive (Economic): 3
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Editcount:737
 * Time:4*5*3=60
 * (737/60)*pi=38.5892297
 * Total= 131

Adal

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Adal(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 31.4^1.25/1.25^31.4*2.5*6=  1 .009901252204476728169696105063
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:5
 * Total:35

Result
Enormous Swedish Victory. Sweden has right to 57.83% of Adalian territory, or 1493 px. The Adalian government collapses.
 * (131/166)*2 -1 = 57.83%
 * Adalian territory:2581 px

Discussion
I'm still somewhat unsure of how to do chance.Flagmania 14:34, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

You made some mistakes on stability. Adal existed for 314 years before the war (it was estabilished in 1415). and the time for which the nation existed is divided by ten.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:28, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Somebody can decide what to do?Ethiopia was to be leading the war, and Sweden can't make another colony.not right now.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:13, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

1730 Map Issues
Well, as I explained on the page, there are some issues with the size of Ethiopia, namely a lack of the following things: I was happy though, to notice that Ethiopia's gains in Sennar were added to the map. I'll make a smaller map showing what Ethiopia really should look like. Since the rules say I can edit the map on behalf of my own country, that's means I can just fix the problem myself?Flagmania 14:47, November 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * The new capitol, Gananora around OTL Assab (with a little stretch of land connecting it to the rest of Ethiopia).
 * The Southern border should be expanded south a bit.
 * Depending on how the above war goes, all or part of Adal.

Also, about the rebellion in Southern China, the map for 1730 shows all the changes that have been made the previous four years...So it would show the world in 1729. Therefore, the Chinese rebellion wouldn't be shown on the map.Flagmania 14:51, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I usually put mod actions on the map, to be sure that i won't forget about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:20, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Also, I have conquered New Songhay... Is correct that the uncolonized lands in Terre de Feu, are now under my control?--Galaguerra1 18:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

New Sweden has 293px missing. It is the colony in Puget Sound, aka Seattle. Please add it...Scandinator 05:18, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

My computer's paint isn't working-so Collie, could you just make the changes?Flagmania 19:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Mod Rebellions
Not sure what is unclear. When there is a rebellion in your country because of a mod action, you basically have two choices: ignore it or launch a counter-attack, meaning an actual war with an algorithm. The rebellions are carefully researched for a reason, not so you can "execute the leadership" and "swiftly put down the rebellion."

Also just a note, I shrunk down the Inca remnant because it doesn't make sense for a country to own huge swaths of territory after only recently settling down. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:46, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

That's why i didn't added. it was too damn implausible.this, and the guy says he settles Colombia/Venezuela but winds up on Brazil/Guyana?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:11, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

China
Grand Total: 125
 * At the the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 8
 * Expansion: -2
 * Population: 10
 * Stability Bonus Points: 87
 * Participating in War: 10
 * Life or Death: 10
 * Ruled said area for 151+ years: -5
 * Chance: 6
 * (1798/56)*pi= 100.867564127758004334925585

Rebels

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Strength: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 97
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 5 (Random)
 * Owned area for 0+ years: +5
 * Total= 141

Discussion
I'm sorry, but there have been dozens of major rebellions in Chinese history, and a significant percentage were successful. By the way the algorithm looks, it would be impossible for a rebellion to be successful. So I'm going to arbitrarily pick 97 for stability, which was derived as a random number on random.org. I hate to go back on the system, but this is a mod action and this just isn't working. In fact, lets ignore this until I get home… <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:53, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I think that we need to have some effect of revolts within a nation to stability, preferably a drastic effect that would reduce stability by like 20% or something if you have a civil war or something. LurkerLordB 19:00, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I really hate to be the one to start an uproar. I really do. But there is no good reason to ignore the curve. How the hell is a 97 stability plausible for rebels from a largely agragian (save the coast, which is doing pretty well) area? Besides, I had a civil war almost a hundred years ago and the new system has been working out. Along with leftover culture and tons of money from the Kanxi Emperor, China is in a good position right now anyway. Yeah, Chinese history is dotted with rebellion, but you can't godmod a 97 stability for a rebellion. In fact, that makes it so it is impossible for China to win.

Just to make it clear, I'm not mad at the civil war. I wouldn't even be that mad if it went poorly WITHOUT godmodding. I'm mad that you godmodded a 97 into the stability like that. I'm not one for really fighting against moderation, but this is honestly one of those things I need to speak up about. So to sum it up: going around the curve like that is implausible and unfair. CrimsonAssassin 20:13, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Why not make it so that rebels lose stability much faster each turn so that it would have to be a quick rebel victory or they would lose. say some effect that would cause their initial stability to fall by 1 - 5 every turn. 82.11.97.219 20:29, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Only problem: we use the stability at the beginning of the war, so the stability fall wouldn't really do anything. If the nation doesn't attack them right away, then they are not rebels any more and they are their own nation, so it is a good idea that won't work. LurkerLordB 20:46, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * If we start manipulating algorithms just because 'one outcome is supposed to happen', where do we draw the line? If 'supposed to happen' was a justifiable reason, anyone could give themselves or someone else a stability bump in the right or wrong direction.CrimsonAssassin 02:07, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I've kind of had it with the stability system. I'm going to devise a new system for stability, with new systems for rebellions. The system will take into account how wars and expansion negatively affect stability more accurate. @Scandinator, I'm taking stability out of commission, for good this time, unless you can come up with something that pleases me… @Crimson, I know it's a bit unfair at the moment because you couldn't have expected this, so for now you have the option of taking the punishment to an extent that I want or you may get another rebellion in the near future. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:29, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Doing some research, I did see that there are going to be TONS of rebellions in the 19th century era. Only thing is that the numerous rebellions weakened the Qing Dynasty for most of that century. Seeing as how I did expand quite a bit in the late 1600s-early 1700s, I may in fact just deal with a rebellion that wins. Before I do so, however, I'd like to know what this rebellion hopes to achieve. Some changes I'm fine with, but an entire government/dynasty replacement is kind of iffy. I don't wanna start pulling new emperors from a new dynasty out of a hat (Though I just might push for a very effective female ruler of China) CrimsonAssassin 03:46, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Like any country/entity/organization, they mostly want as much power as possible. But I'm okay with you keeping them south of the Yangtze, but in this case they would control most of the southern provinces. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:55, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. As long as my beautiful country stays intact, next turn, I'll let them win and I'll integrate their antics into the empire. CrimsonAssassin 04:06, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nine colonies already?
I just realize that...I HAVE NINE COLONIES! In fact, I have five colonies: Haiti, Nouvelle France, Malouinas-Terre de Feu-Patagonie (All of them one single colony), Songhaï (New Songhay) and Guinée (wich I inherited from Burgundy). Also I have three vassal states: Burgundy, Algeria and Arabia. Then, my expansion rate is 3800 square kilometers per turn? Am I wrong? In case it is true... I can have more colonies or the vassals also count as colonies?--Galaguerra1 18:18, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Three plus five is eight, not nine. anyway, no, vassals are not colonies.but they count for expansion rate. you can have two more colonies, but the rules state that the maximum number of vassals that a nation can have is 2. you have three.i recommend that you install a puppet government in Burgundy instead of making it a vassal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:42, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Puppet states and dynastic union doesn't count as a vassal for expansion right? LurkerLordB 02:24, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

No, puppet states do not count as vassals, it's kind of a loophole to get around vassalization. As it is, you can still have two more colonies to make seven, but you have to get rid of a vassal, as Collie said. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:37, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Mmmm--- I counted it wrong (I counted Sote d'Ivore). Anyway, I'll do that, install a puppet government in Burgundy. --Galaguerra1 16:50, November 29, 2011 (UTC)