Talk:1983: Doomsday

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=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Khanate found in central asia by military expedition
The siberian army found a khanate when it was exploring the former Uzbek SSR,the Khanate of Aralia which its leader,Abdul Rahim claims that is the sucessor state of the Khanate of Khiva,Tuleyev announced that siberia would annex that region but the troops of rahim are equiped with soviet weapons so the siberian army will find resistence
 * Interesting, but you might want to talk to User:Vladivostok. He has pretty much has been the expert on the USSR and Northern Asia and he might have an opinion about what you are proposing for that area. Mitro 01:55, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Common currency for the SAC
According to the article, a common currency for the SAC nations (the Peso Real (PR$)) should have been implented this year. Which nations do you think adopted it? Or am I reading the article wrong and the currency shouldn't actualy be instituted until 2011? Mitro 17:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Is the ADC larger?
According to the Western Sahara (1983: Doomsday) article, the was part of an international force that kicked the Sicilians from Gibraltar in 2005. This makes me wonder whether Rif would actually be a part of the when it was formed in 2007. They would be enemies of Sicily as well and several current members of the ADC were part of that international force. I think it is likely that Rif was a founding member of the alliance. Mitro 17:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * All right then, I don't see why not. --DarthEinstein 17:25, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

And what about Bermuda and the East Carribean Federation? They seem to be prime candidates for an enlargement of the ADC, or perhaps observers.--Vladivostok 20:42, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bermuda was only discovered in 2009, so though they might be a potential member in the future, some time will need to pass to take care of the preliminary negotiations. As for the ECF, well the ADC was pretty much created to fight and contain expansionist Sicily.  Canada is a member though despite not being anywhere near Sicily, but I think that is because they have a lot to lose if the route through the Mediterranean Sea is blocked.  Would the ECF have the same interest?  Mitro 15:48, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * The ECF might be more affiliated economically with the SAC because it is so close. Canada on the other hand was fairly isolated before the late 80s when they contacted the other future members of the ADC. So I think that Canada would have more trade going on with the other ADC members than the ECF would. Also, is it possible that a few of those French and Spanish successor states might be part of the ADC? Monaco and Andorra especially, since they are apparently the gateways in to former France and Spain. --DarthEinstein 16:18, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we can make an argument that anyone who was a target for Sicilian aggression was a founding member of the ADC, or at least joined later. Mitro 16:19, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Granted, the ECF would be economically closer to the SAC nations, but perhaps it would try to uphold stronger relations with with other nations in the Anglosphere. And one other thing I've been meaning to ask: How strong are the ADC and ANZC ties today? Would they support them in a cold war against SAC? Sort of like OTL Great Britain supporting the U.S.?--Vladivostok 08:39, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Only 2 nations in the ADC are technically a part of the Angloshere (Canada and the Celtic Alliance), but I could see them join a revitalized Commonwealth of Nations. As for the ANZC, the article does say that they are close with the ADC, but SAC nations have aided the member states of the ADC in conflicts against Sicily.  Mitro 04:36, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Israel attacks
When the article was created, we came to the consensus that Israel would probably use its nuclear weapons on its neighbors after it lost the support of the US. Now I always thought this would happen later, maybe a few year after DD, but a closer look at the article says it happened on or shortly after DD. Thoughts? Comments? Questions? I marked the article as a proposal for the time being. Mitro 19:51, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Prior to writing the article on Israel, I carefully read up as to what their policies are as to the use of nuclear weapons. The understanding I got was a certain series of events would need to be met before they would be used. This is why a scenario in which they attack a neighboring state would have to have a logical basis. I honestly believe Egypt would have been attacked by the USSR for the same reason Israel and Jordan were on Doomsday, because of the close military relations they had with the US. This said, Egypt would have not been been in such a state to mount a serious attack post Doomsday which would have forced Israel to go nuclear. Even if they were to mount an attack, say over Israel moving into the Sinai, which is feasible, I believe Israel would be able to repulse them without resorting to nukes, where as Iraq moving against them would provide a correct scenario. I must confess to being a bit confused when I read the Egypt article before I started mine and was unsure of what to make of it, since it was my impression, right or wrong, it was a proposal at the time. I honestly think this article, as it applies only to this point, is something we may want to rethink for changing, which would have little impact since it only affects Egypt and Israel. Logically, I don't see Israel attacking Egypt at all. However, I will bow to the thoughts of the group as to this, since I will be returning to my article in the new year. --Fxgentleman 03:07, December 25, 2009 (UTC) this policy does sem consistent becuse the US was a key ally of Isreal and with the US gone Isreal would be in danger so the Isreali Prime minister would order a strike against Egypt--Owen1983 13:04, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

New country in Brazil
A separatist nation emerges in Brazil thanks to political instability after the assassination of the presidential candidate jose serra from psdb,the leaders of psdb have a special meeting in minas gerais and create the social republic of new brazil from the separatist states of paraná,sao paulo and minas gerais,its capital would be in uberlandia and its president would be the actual minas gerais governor from psdb,aécio neves,lula would refuse to recognize the new country and would declare war on the new nation


 * As I stated on your talk page this idea just does not make sense. Brazil in DD is one of the wealthiest and most powerful nations on the planet.  Ben actually said that is more likely to be the successor to the US then the ANZC.  Also as far as I can tell from looking at the, the country has not been suffering any political instability.  In fact the last 10 years has probably been to most prosperous for Brazil in this TL.  Brazil collapsing into civil war at this moment without any event leading up to it is pure ASB.  Mitro 21:44, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * The political instability that i'm talking is the dispute between the center-right PSDB and the leftist PT which culminates with the assassination of jose serra that is interpreted as a political crime by minas gerais governor aécio neves (who in OTL is addicted to cocaine,this is proven so he is a very unstable man) so it's not so improbable that he would claim that it was a conspiracy by PT and that he would create a great controversy that could even generate a civil war
 * The controversy is not enough to cause a civil war. Look at the assasination of JFK in the US.  Despite all the conspiracies revolving around that tragedy the US did not collapse into civil war.  A loss of a presidential candidate to one lone nut won't cause a collapse in Brazil either.  Also if this governor who so unstable, why would the people of the breakaway state even leave with him?  One crazy politician won't start a civil war either.  Mitro 22:26, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aécio Neves is completely mad but he is the second most popular politician of brazil,behind only the president.He has 80% of approval in all the PSDB-ruled states which includes sao paulo and minas gerais,the biggest states of brazil which have a combined population of 65 million,a third of brazil,são paulo has one third of the national GDP.He is the kind of politician who WOULD cause a civil war
 * He is mad and yet incredibly popular, sounds like your own opinion of him is affecting how you are viewing the situation. Either way there is no way Brazil could have a civil war because some nut shot a political candidate.  There is nothing in Brazil's history in this ATL to even suggest that the level of instablility exists to make this civil war plausible.  Mitro 00:08, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well,i guess i'll create another article if there's no chance of the social republic to emerge haha

is it me or is this guy getting annoying? he could at least do us the courtesy of signing his posts. --HAD 11:01, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
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New World Map
Due to size, the discussion for the new world map has been moved here: File talk:World83DD v1.2.PNG. Mitro 17:57, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Template:Nations 1983DD
new template, think about


 * This template is kind of large and unweildly. How can we use it?  Mitro 03:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe only on the main page of the timeline.--Oerwinde 07:06, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * There has to be a way to condense it similar to what has been done on WP. collapsing segments and such. Louisiannan 20:41, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Victoria Flag
The Citizen's Congress currently going on now will eventually propose that the government of Victoria adopt a federal system in order to provide regional autonomy. As this is a huge change it will basically require a huge ammendment to the Victorian constitution. With the addition of US territory and a new direction for the country, the government will take proposals for a new national flag and hold a referrendum on which flag to adopt. I have a few choices I've come up with and would love some other contributions. The only thing I wasn't able to do with the new flag choices that I wanted to do was incorporate some british elements. The color is all I was able to keep for that. I've got the red, white, and blue representing both british and american origins, the maple leaf denoting the canadian origins, and the 7 stars which will represent the 7 provinces. If you want to contribute it doesn't have to look anything like the ones I've made or incorporate any of the elements, as long as it looks good and is representative of the country.--Oerwinde 11:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
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New discussion page(s)
Considering how large this page gets, I'm thinking about splitting the discussion page into 7 seperate discussion pages based on the current sections on the talk page. You can check out my idea on my sandbox: User:Mitro/Sandbox. Feel free to make suggestions or even edit the page to help improve the idea. If you all like it, I will split the discussion page when we have consensus. Mitro 03:45, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know - archival might be a better fit, especially if something goes untouched for more than 3 weeks. Louisiannan 20:42, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
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Religion: Unification of Orthodox/Catholic Church ?
As much as I may be opposed to it, I still think it should be proposed...
 * With Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism in tatters (Australia, Greece, New Zealand, Turkey being the strongest vestiges of Orthodoxy, South America being the strongest of Catholicism) the two religions might be more prompted to unite the Ancient Churches. Of course whoever is the caretaker of Catholicism might want to discuss it as obviously everyone here is going to have a different idea. Though there are still a great many matters that would need to be taken care of. Would the new South American pope even want to relinguish power to nothing more than "First Among Equals".

Mr.Xeight 02:57, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * How can Turkey have the strongest vestiges of Orthodoxy? What about all those people in Socialist Siberia?--Vladivostok 13:50, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Could someone shed some light on the proportionalities/basic principles in the Orhodoxy? Like numbers of followers in each country? And international hierarchy in between the Orthodox Church??

I would really welcome it if we treat the religious topics in a careful way (evolving them through rational discussion) as it is too simple to offend some readers/contributors with this issue !!--Xi&#39;Reney 20:49, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say it had a BIG population, only that there more Greeks who jumped ship from the Motherland and headed East. Northern Greece certianly doesn't, nor Thrace, nor Yugoslavia, they're all dead! And didn't the USSR surpress Orthodoxy anyway? Besides, are there even a lot of Orthodox Christians in the Russin Far East? I could just be stereotyping here, but I'm guessing the great percentage of the native Turkic Tribes of Siberia and the like are animists or shamanists? And of course you have to take into affect whether any Orthodox Christians in Siberia could even communicate with their Western brothers.
 * Xi, I can look it up. If all else fails, I can inquire to my priest, I'm sure he can direct me to an Inter-Orthodox website.
 * To answer about inter-Orthodox hierarchy, it's complicated... Let's use me for example. I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian under the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North & South America (now called "The Americas"). I can attend liturgy at an Antiochan, or Russian, or Ukrainian, or even an Oriental Orthodox (who are not in-communion with us.). I can even receive communion from any of the above churches (though receiving from an Oriental Orthodox church is frowned upon). That's about it. We're "expected" (a great deal of rules are unwritten and unofficial, they're more like guidelines you're expected to folow) to only get confession from our own subsect, meaning I can not receive confession from a Russian Orthodox priest. Unless there's a shortage in the area, priests from their respective sects give liturgy at their own church. I know of some saints who were Greek that became Patriarchs in Russia, but of course this was hundreds of years ago. There is an inter-Orthodox Group I know of, SCOBA (Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas).
 * Doomsday might change all of this. For all we know the surviving Russian and Serbian monks who were forced to leave Mt. Athos might be able to hold liturgy in Greek churches now.

Mr.Xeight 23:29, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any ideas at all? Is the caretaker of DD's Catholicism interested? Mr.Xeight 22:58, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

i have not had much thaught on catholism but but I agrre reunifications a logical step --Owen1983 00:25, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

You did not just say that...
 * You do know that there are other Christian religions out there besides Catholicism & Protestantism right? You do know that there Orthodox Christianity is the 2nd largest Christian religion? You have no idea how much that angers me to see so much ignorance in Western Europeans and Americans who choose not to look beyond their own life.
 * Do not come to my page and give me an apology, in-fact don't bother responding to this comment. Just be more informed next time you open your mouth to comment.

Mr.Xeight 00:35, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

As a Protestant, I feel like anything I have to say on this matter is limited at best. But I'm not inclined to believe that even a nuclear war would necessarily lead Roman Catholicism and the various branches of Orthodoxy to seek to become one Church. I am inclined to believe that adherents of Catholicism and Orthodoxy would continue to follow their own faiths.--BrianD 01:02, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Owen 1983 is being his usual, irksome self again causing ditress for all. This time he created a page for the "Catholic Church", giving it only a completely made up timeline and a horrific stream of sickening typos.
 * Xi'Reney, have fun trying to discipline him; as if any attempts have been successful in the past. Hopefully this time he won't say I'm in cahoots with him trying to off one of DD's integral parts of the interworkings of the creative process.

Mr.Xeight 01:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Xeight...agree, the Catholic Church thing is quite awfully made...though yet solved. if I should alone be trying to discipline this TL, the discussions and all around it...then I would have a new full-time job... which I would love to do indeed :) I think the wiki dynamic regarding corrections/discipline is quite reliable in this...even though I tend to believe that you will have a close view on his behaviour/contributions, out of personal motivation, won´t you?...--Xi&#39;Reney 20:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense that there would be a vestige of Eastern Orthodoxy in Turkey. After all, the religion was officially started in the city then known as Constantinople. --Yankovic270 21:32, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

And what about the Mormons? Or the Baptists, Lutherists, Anglicans and other Protestant sects? They did not vanish after DD. In fact, I think Utah might have made Mormonism their official religion. Yankovic270 21:49, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Hey,really ist would be hard to unify the ortodxal and cathollics.I think that their may exist more different beliefs after Doomsday than before it. Despite that,i think we need an article for Ortodoxal Christianity,because there are still many in Greece,Siberia,and the survivors from Bulgaria,Serbia,Poland etc. --Zeifodd 12:47, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's an interesting thought, anyway. X8, did you have any concrete ideas regarding Catholic-Orthodox relations after DD? As an aside, did we even reach a consensus on whether the post-DD world was generally "more religious" or "less religious"?  Benkarnell 02:54, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt the Orthodox and Catholic churches would unite. Over the centuries the differences in teachings have gotten further and further apart due to the Catholic tendency to adapt Catholic teachings with societal advances, while the Orthodox church tends to try to keep to the original apostolic teachings. My opinion on the religiousness of the post DD world, I think depends on how heavily affected the region is. I think regions that were more or less unaffected might become less religious because of the whole "If there was a god how could he let this happen" type thing. Where more affected regions the survivors would likely have turned to religion either because they had nothing else or due to a view that god kept them safe through it all or something like that. Muslim nations would likely see the destruction of most of the Christian world as proof of Islam's truth, and would likely see a lot of new converts. Especially in Africa.--Oerwinde 08:19, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Ben, to answer your question, I've always liked Oer's idea the best. It makes sense and that's what I've based my few writing regarding religion on. But yes, Oer, you're right they are quite different, something that I see all the time at my my predominantly-Catholic school. What I'd see the reuniting as a purely (how should I put this. I can't really think of the right word atm) act of friendship. They would be reunited on paper, their formerly individual churches would carry on as they always have. Who would be able to stop them? I'm sure contact and travel are nigh-impossible from country to country, imagine crossing the Atlantic to boot. So it's really only an act of "Our churches are in tatters, let's unite not because we want to but because we have to". Or at least that's how I'd see it. Mr.Xeight 23:46, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I will try to outline my views on this matter. First, the differences between Catholicism, Orthodoxy and the Protestant churches is not confined to the question of the primacy of the papacy, there are also questions of dogma, which pose an insurmountable barrier to the union of the churches. Second, the lack of communication between regions of the world after the nuclear holocaust may frustrate the realization of the purpose of uniting the churches even in the event that it would raise. Third, the destruction of the ecclesiastical hierarchy of all Christian denominations, as well as seminars and church schools to the various religions lead to a phase of confusion, religious education seriously decay. Fourth, religiosity would be expressed with difficulties in a public way, not to say that is not published because it was the chase, but because the need would be difficult holding masses or religious events as we know them (migration, work forced, etc. ..) Fifth, most likely resurface millennial tendencies, according to which the DD. would indeed be the arrival of the third age of man and therefore the teachings and standards of the New Testament would have expired as well as the Old Testament for Christians. Heresies coming noww strongly. In conclusion. I do not think, in my opinion, it had a tendency to unity, but on the contrary, would produce a movement of fragmentation and church separate evolution so far known, they might even led to new churches and religions. It is true that there is a conclave in Rio de Janeiro, but it is possible for the survival of the Catholic Church in South America and other regions relatively well communicated outside these regions there is considerable room for speculation on this subject.--Tristanbreiker 18:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I took long to respond, what the song fails to mention is that it's also the busiest time of the year, and that's when with POST-BREAK finals!
 * But now I actually (thanks to Tristan's comment) that there wouldn't be a reuniting, but infact a seperating! The Celtic Church (1983:Doomsday is a prime example. Bulgaria, Serbia, Northern Greece, East Thrace are all gone, there's no reason to try to delve into their surviving religious community. What seems interesting to me is Europe's situation. The Patriarch of Venice is mentioned,, maybe he's become the de-facto leader of Italian Catholics of th Peninsula

status of historical artifacts and monuments
Doomsday certainly destroyed countless of these, so whats left? --User:WAJJER--WAJJER 01:28, December 13, 2009

no structures survived in Europe or North America but i remember a tv show frome the 1990s caled Buck Rogers in the 25th century which was set long after a nuclear war and it stated Mount rushmore survived so I guess it survived in this OTL--Owen1983 21:57, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Rushmore survived the war, but was defaced later during the violent period of Sioux nationalism. Benkarnell 22:03, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I think what you just described can be described as a war crime. And why on earth would the want to deface it? They have the huge statue of Crazy Horse, so they should be happy. I think we should have them intent to deface the monument, only to get twarted at the last minute. --Yankovic270 22:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Any historical monuments in West Virginia? Because they would survive Doomsday reletively easily. --Yankovic270 22:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Black Hills are just about the most sacred place in the world in traditional Sioux culture, and many Sioux see Mt. Rushmore as an unconscionable, if not downright insulting, scar on them - and that's *here*, not *there*, where there was a radical, militant, nationalistic movement that took hold among the tribe. There was a huge protest at the mountain in 1971 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rushmore#Controversy).  And Crazy Horse is (1) unfinished even today, and (2) opposed by many for the same reason they oppose Rushmore.  I would imagine that destroying Rushmore would symbolically show the Sioux nationalists' victory over the successors of the US and their purging of their new country of all US ifluence.  It's kind of like the Taliban destroying those Buddhas.  I'd imagine that the Lakotah Republic would have apologized for such an act, though, once moderates were in power and seeking to join the North American Union.  Benkarnell 22:54, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I would hunt down those responsible, try them and summarily execute them. I doubt there is a citizen in any of the American survivors states whose blood wouldn't boil over this atrocity. Hell, there might be a backlash against Native Americans. Scratch that. There will be a backlash on Native Americans. I could see mobs of angry citizens lynching any aboringinal they can find, and destroying all they own. Even will the apology, I doubt the ill will caused by this atrocity will go away any time soon. It is harsh, but pretty much any American I know whould be absolutely furious if anything happened to Mount Rushmore. I see the Virginian Republic expelling any aboriginals in its territory over this outrage. --Yankovic270 23:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I am not american but I think Mount Rushmore is a very inportent monuman to US history and ensuring there survival will preserve the past IMHO I would like to see Mount Rushmore preserved as a LoN world heratige site--Owen1983 23:17, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yankovic - this isn't real. Benkarnell 00:40, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Aren't you Canadian? Mr.Xeight 00:53, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it doesn't take an american to see that the sculpture at Mount Rushmore is as much a beloved symbol of America as the Statue of Liberty. Think of it this way. You are an American lets say, and someone defaced Mount Rushmore with graffiti or explosives. You would probbably be angry. If such an attack would happen in real life most Americans would be furious. I imagine the reaction would be the same in the 1983:Doomsday timeline. Yankovic270 01:36, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are overreacting Yank. Maybe OTL if someone destroyed Mt. Rushmore people would be upset, but would there be a huge backlash against Native Americans?  No.  Look at 9/11, probably the greatest tragedy in American history.  Was every single Muslim American rounded up into camps or did the streets run red with Arab blood?  No.  Was there some violence, yes but all things considered it certainly wasn't as bad as, lets say, what happened to the Sikhs when Indira Gandhi was killed in 1984.  I believe over 3000 people died.  Americans just aren't like that except for those few ignorant white trash yokels.  I don't think you truly understand the American mindset.
 * As for this ATL, consider this Yank, why should anyone care? If the Lakota do destroy the monument it could take years for the majority of Americans to find out.  Only the people of the PUSA would know about right away, but they would be enemies anyway so they have other reasons to hate them.  Furthermore there are a lot of American survivor states that don't even see themselves as Americans anymore (like the MSP), would the destruction of the monument really effect them?  Also there are Americans who have been born since DD who probably have never even seen pictures of the place, how could they get an attachment to it?  And why would all Native Americans be helpless?  Many reservations are away from targets and would have access to farmland and other necessities.  If anything they most Indians would be better off then non-Indians in North America.
 * It just seems odd that an ethinic American upon finding out the monument was destroyed would go psycho and kill the first Native American they see. Also compare the destruction of the monument to DD itself.  If Americans would go nutso on some Indians for blowing up some stones, what would they do to a citizen Socialist Siberia, the successor state to the USSR?  Mitro 05:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

We haven't even established any fate for Mount Rushmore, much less its destruction. And how would you, in a post-WWIII world, destroy or even deface the monument? That would have to be a pretty massive undertaking, and you'd pretty much be the only ones to know about it. I'd like to hear a realistic explanation of why, and how, Mt. Rushmore would be destroyed...if it's determined it wasn't, then Owen's idea of making it an LoN world heritage site is an excellent idea.--BrianD 06:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I'm no expert on blowing up monuments, but wouldn't conventional explosives, maybe dynamite used by firefighters and construction workers, be enough to damage the monument? Mitro 13:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Its possible the Statue of Liberty survived. Although it would be damaged. Most Berlin landmarks survived, I would guess the Pyramids would survive as well, they would be far enough away to escape with only superficial damage. Keep in mind that a lot of the suburban areas of major cities would survive mostly intact, while the fallout would push the population away or kill them, so any landmarks in the suburban areas of major cities would likely survive.--Oerwinde 07:58, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I think both Americans and Native Americans would be outraged i can imagine the culprits being tried and sentaced to hard labor reparing the damage they caused--Owen1983 18:37, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, why would they be punished? As Ben pointed out a lot of Native Americans don't like the monument to begin with.  Furthermore I doubt a sovereign nation is going to turn over its citizens to be tried for doing something that said nation probably approved of when it happened.  As for other Americans, why should they care?  Consider the Americans in Australia who integrated into Australian culture or the survivor states that have established new identities.  Why would they care?  Mitro 18:45, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

As major cites have been destroyed, major artifacts are now lost. so local museums, like my local bassetlaw museum, could have surived in the UK and in other nations. but due the chaos, they would be ransacked (remember what happened in Iraq after the invasion). also being used: in my museum a 5th century log boat would be used as firewood for any survivors, or using old farm tools. In the UK, Stonehenge could survive with some cathderals; Ely, Lincoln (?), Peterbrough. I'm only mentioning this as the 'Rushmoore argument' and others focuse on America. It is fine discussing about it, but I would like some discussions on a much, broader scope. This does sound like univeristy speack, since i am a student. --WAJJER 19:13, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with walker I think we are ignoring the topic becuse people are focusing on America

I'd imagine the artifacts in Berlin would take on increased value. The Berlin Wall might be a major historic site. Obviously as Switzerland was not attacked the museums and artifacts there would have survived. Same for South America. Perhaps the Great Wall of China as well? And, I'm wondering if it is possible that something survived in the ruins of the Vatican in Rome, perhaps in some kind of underground chamber?--BrianD 23:30, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for my behavior.I was reacting based on personal feelings. You see, one year me and my familiy went on a vacation to South Dakota, and we visited Mount Rushmore. It just became a cherished memory of mine. Everyone has an event,person or item that fills a special place in his or her heart. The sight of Mount Rushmore in the rain, looking like they were crying. That was, and is one of my most cherished memories. Yankovic270 01:49, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

so was Mount Rushmore destroyed? the NAU PAGE SAYS IT WAS. --HAD 13:45, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I added that, it just seemed like something they would do. Maybe they wouldn't be able to "destroy" the entire monument, but they probably deface it enough.  Mitro 00:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
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Wikibreak announcement
For a variety of reasons, I'm not going to be very active on this site for a little while. Part of it is that for Christmas I'm working in a shop instead of in classrooms, so I don't have access to computers in the middle of the day. But I'm also getting a little frustrated with certain aspects of 83dd and feel it's time to take a breather. This probably won't be as long as my last (unannounced) absence, essentially August-September... maybe five months is just the limit of my Internet attention span. I'll respond to any posts on my own talk page. All I ask is that everyone please, please do not leave Mitro to do all the archiving. He's busy too, and this page can get quite big. Merry Christmas! :) Benkarnell 22:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * So are you still on a wikibreak? Mitro 00:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like I'm back. :)  And not coincidentally, yesterday was my last day working at the mall.  Benkarnell 00:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Doomsday on Facebook
For all of those who use Facebook, I created a facebook group for Doomsday: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=215628041113

Hopefully it will help atract some new contributors! Mitro 19:58, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Merry Christmas, everyone!--HAD 13:20, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

were we live we have 3 days to go but merry christmas
 * Wishing everyone who reads this a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Or put differently: 'Zoalig Kerstmis en veul heil en zeg'n int Neijjoar!' --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 16:09, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Putting it differently again: 'ko salci la krismys. gleki .e ninyna'a gleki' (I'm just learning this language; I may have made a mistake... but Merry Christmas anyway!) --DarthEinstein 17:49, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas everyone, I'm off for a day of eating and drinking and I will see you all again on Sunday (I'll need Saturday to sober up). Mitro 19:08, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

US Military Bases
Do they have the facilities to manufacture their own ammunition if it became necessary to do so?? I only ask cos ammo supplies aren't infinite.

If push came to shove could they create such facilities??

Verence71 20:25, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Happy new year!!!
Happy new year, everyone!--HAD 18:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

India articles
I added information on Khalistan and Operation Red Blood which was blank before that. Any ratification problem --MC Prank 15:25, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 05:56, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/India_(1983:_Doomsday), here. --MC Prank 07:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * See also Republic of Khalistan (1983: Doomsday) and . Mitro 03:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * For Red Blood, why did India attack Arunachal Pradesh first? Wouldn't it make sense to first go after areas that are adjacent to UIP lands? Come to think of it, I thought the UIP was a pretty decentralized body for getting the different areas to agree with each other. How is it finding so much military success all of a sudden?  One success (Sikkim) seems OK.  But this step-by-step reconquest seems to be flying by awfully easily.  Benkarnell 02:58, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

It is easier to conquer Arunachal Pradesh as it borders the UIP from both sides, that is, if you have seen the map. Yeah, I realised my mistake. Now I'll Limit Red Blood to just Arunachal Pradesh and The current UIP members form a federal country. First, it stabilizes over a course of time and then goes on to re-claiming the break-away states. You were right this success was just too easy considering UIP just a provisional body. --MC Prank 16:26, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Even with the changes, it seems to be too much, too fast. That's two national governments completely wiped out in two months.  I'm sure they were far from being stable, modern powers, but then, India's UIP isn't very stable or modern either.  (EDIT) Also, wouldn't Manmohan Singh be a citizen of Khalilstan and not the President of India?   Benkarnell 13:23, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Manmohan Singh was the Governor of RBI, India's central bank in 1982, before that he taught at the Universty of Delhi, and also worked for the Foreign & Finance Ministries so there's a lot of chance that he could try to unify India OTL. And you must be knowing that all sikhs dont live in just Punjab. --MC Prank 16:20, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations.  Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines.  nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean.  Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s.  Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation.  Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

War in the Mediterranean!
Discussion moved to Talk:Second Sicily War (1983: Doomsday). Benkarnell 19:56, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

New British elections
British elections coming up! Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * See 2009 Realm of New Britain General Election (1983: Doomsday) for the article in question. Mitro 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the Anglo-Africans just continue parties popular among them, such as the Progressive Federal Party, instead of copying British parties for no apparent reason? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * We've already noted that British people from the UK came to New Britain. Many of these people would have been politicians, with a collapsing government and civil disorder, when an existing stable party community arrives, it only makes sense that they would take root and stabilise political aggravations. Bob 13:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh sure, that make sense. It's the Anglo-Africans I'm talking about however. Why would they conform to a model identical to the one previously used in Britain and forget everything about their own political history? Especially given the fact that they form the majority of the population, that just doesn't make sense to me. Also, given the fact that South Africa used a system of proportional representation and I've never heard of any country that moved from a proportional system to a district system as rigid as the British one (correct me if I'm wrong on this though), my estimate is New Britain would definitely have more than just two to three political parties. You may even want to spice things up by adding an ethnic Xhosan party, openly supportive of KwaXhosa. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:38, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is I've put in alot of information into the table but it doesn't come up. Can anyone help? Bob 11:34, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

There would be a large Xhosa population, given NB's location. But Karsten, a couple things: South Africa's state collapsed and there was a lot of population displacement, so it's plausible that NB wouldn't resemble South Africa too closely. Though since most people would be used to a PR government, I would expect them to keep that. Benkarnell 18:23, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I think kertens got a good point a political parties should reflect the ethnic diversity in NB --Owen1983 18:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Bob 16:38, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there would be an "Afrikaans National Party" in New Britain. The history suggests that most Afrikaaners were replaced by Anglo-Africans.  Mitro 02:59, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article on Soviet Alaska created by Vlad. Mitro 03:10, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to be annoying and stubborn, but. As I was re-reading the Authority for Space Operations page, I was reminded of another reason to at least be careful before we reject this page: the idea of a Soviet Alaska - and of some sort of Soviet-ANZUS conflict - has been embedded in the TL for some time.  It's not quite as bad as the Panama issue, but it's still significant.  I'm not sure how many pages we would have to look over and change if we now decide that there are not, and never have been, any Soviets in Alaska.  Benkarnell 17:01, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that you're fighting for the article to stay,I really am and I would be too, it's just that I can't come up with such a solid reason to still have it as canon.--Vladivostok 19:21, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd really rather not think of it that way. This canon issue, really, is what bothered me from the time that Alaska's existence was most recently questioned.  We started having proposals and canon for a reason.  We, as writers, were tired of not knowing what was "real" within the universe of 1983DD.  With a system of canon/QSS, you can be assured that what is written down is a "fact", and write freely based on that assurance.  It's like a pile of bricks, where every new item rests on what came before it.  When we start bringing long-established facts into question, like Panama and now Alaska, it's like reaching into the pile and pulling out a brick that's 4 or 5 rows down.  It doesn't affect just that one item, it also will move the ones resting on top of it.  The details of the Alaskan Autonomous Oblast or Territory or what-have-you were not fleshed out until very recently, but the existence of a Soviet Alaska, and of some kind of ate 80s/early 90s conflict over it, have been part of the body of knowledge for a long time.  The August world map includes it. (Yes, I know I also had a couple of non-canonical bits on that map, especially South Africa.  But the Alaskan situation was not mine; it was based on material that had already been discussed and accepted.)  I'll repeat that I have no idea how many pages that bit of information is currently affecting.  Definitely the George Bush article, for one.  But we are going to make a /lot/ of unpleasant work for ourselves if we get in the habit of debating and changing stuff that we agreed on already.  Benkarnell 19:55, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you Ben. When I came here I was working with previously established data and this removing of Alaska from canon was somewhat surprising to me. But now I seriously have doubts in the plausibility of Alaska. Back when Alaska and Socialist Siberia were made, more than half the articles we have just didn't exist. And Alaska wasn't really an issue, since there were no articles covering the area, except the ones established, it was regarded as the best option. But now, after fleshing out Siberia and the surrounding area, people started to take notice at a few of the flaws associated with the article. And so it had to be changed. I'm not saying we should just go and rewrite everything,I'm just saying that we should try to work out some of the inconsistencies from past articles, as well as be watchful of new articles.--Vladivostok 20:59, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * So Vlad, what do you want specifically to do with the page? Could we have a shrunken A.A.T. - the Alaska Peninsula, the land around Bethel, and the St. Lawrence, Aleutian, and Nunavak Islands, maybe?  Benkarnell 13:39, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,I'd hate to see all of the page just marked obsolete, a shrunken Autonomous Territory would work best. I just don't know anymore what the reason behind annexing the land could be. Maybe the small skirmishes led to smaller places joining the Socialist Union, that could be plausible.--Vladivostok 21:35, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

I changed a couple of things in the article to maybe make it a bit more palatable, basically making the territory smaller and generally toning it down a bit. Comments are welcome.--Vladivostok 21:09, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Zeifodd. Zeifodd

I checked it out and the country was hit by one nuke so with a bit of work I would think this would deserve graduation--Owen1983 22:19, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to believe that Bulgaria would only get hit by one nuke. Other Soviet client states were hit by several (like East Germany and ) and I can't think of a good reason why Bulgaria would avoid similar multi-strikes.  Also what does this mean: "Bulgaria somehow survived the doomsday for a week but after a mistake a bomb has falled in Blagoevgrad in the doomsnight."  It seems to suggest that Bulgaria was not actually attacked until a week after Doomsday which doesn't make any sense.  Mitro 15:25, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

It definitely needs work, and I agree that being hit by one nuke only is unlikely. I suggest that there are about four to eight targets, one of them being the capital. The other targets would be other important cities and strategically important locations, major ports, etc. I don't know much about Bulgaria so I can't give exact cities. --DarthEinstein 16:59, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

OK,you are right,there is information that a nuke has hitted Sofia: "Bulgaria somehow survived the doomsday for a week but after a mistake a bomb has falled in Blagoevgrad in the doomsnight." yeah this is weird maybe i wanted to :"Bulgarians have been hit by 5 nukes in the Doomsday.The capital and 4 other big towns were destroyed and abot 2.5 mln have died.Other 3 mln were hitted by the radiation,the other 1 mln have tried to evacuate in Greece,Africa or Turkey." So it's very possible that 500 000 people have survived(from 7.5 mln) and big part of tham want to come back if it's possible. Thanks and commen --Zeifodd 18:50, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry Zeif, but your article is still not entirely realistic. First of all, any surviving peasants would have now way of getting to Greece, Turkey, and especially not Africa. They could never get past the nuclear Hell that is Northern Greece. Going west to Serbia, not exactly better. Any survivors would be relegated to their original areas. Sorry, but I doubt any sort of organize government can exist in the Balkans; the only reason Greece survived is because of the islands and the south.
 * Sorry if some of my sentences are scattered-brained. My Mom has Greek Christmas songs blasting, and I mean quite literally too-loud to hear yourself think.

Mr.Xeight 22:56, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Yes.I see your point,but it is possible for people to escape,not many,might be 10000 but even if they hadn't,there is a huge number of bulgarian emigrants because of the communist government and even today in OTL they are millions.Really,may be the emigrants would prefer stay at safe in South America or Africa,but a little number of them is probable to try to get back their own land or something near it. But the radiation...is a problem.First they are in the western part of Balkans,so the only bombs have fallen in Bulgaria,Greece and Romania.They are less than 9 and it's still possible to make a little society.But really it can be very hard and dangerous to live there,so may be no more than 15-20 thousand people would come back at first.Would be that OK?Leave a shout --Zeifodd 14:47, December 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * It really depends on what would have been hit in Bulgaria. Sofia would have been destroyed, but given that Bulgaria wasn't the strongest of allies to the USSR most other urban areas would have been spared. Military bases on the other hand wouldn’t be so lucky. Anyone know what military targets there would have been?--ShutUpNavi 17:17, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

If you mean some military complexes and so on...it's hard to say.There are mainly army legion centers in several places,but some big goal-no.Nothing was too special or dangerous,except the nuclear electro central,so it's possible that no big attack over Bulgaria has been planned. However it seems possible for 10 thousand people to come back. Leave your idea. --Zeifodd 18:25, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Created by KingSweden 21:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC) A small survivor community in eastern Washington, presuming the Columbia River Valley wasn't hit too hard.
 * Pretty much all the strategic locations were in the Seattle/Tacoma area so it should be good. I guess this would be a state that developed sometime after Utah kicked Spokane's butt in 93? Likely Spokane's major rival at this point.--Oerwinde 11:52, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, a blurb should be added to the page that acknowledges the known history of Spokane. If Spokane was making raids as far away as Utah in the 90s, probably this area was under their influence as well.  Benkarnell

Dutch Wastelands
An article of mine. It's about the low-lying areas in the Netherlands that have become flooded into swampland Post Doomsday.--ShutUpNavi 20:09, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like it. Mitro 13:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd have to agree with Mitro here. And no matter how much I dislike the thought of Groningen being under water, it does make perfect sense. Since this is mostly built up from canon material, I see no objections to canonise this. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 12:23, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, I just checked it on this website and the city of Groningen is actually at an average height of over 6.5 meters above sea-level. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 12:38, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a lot of questions about the article. I think we should leave it as a proposal until Navi has a chance to answer a few of them.  Mitro 14:41, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Owen. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article on one of the fictional leaders of an MSP city state. Article created by an anon. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Zeifodd. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Question: would the UK manage to evacuate 900k to southern Africa? Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

answer: they couldnt becuse it would be impossible a more realistic figure would be 200 max becuse with fual souces gone and there would nned space for machinary and crops--Owen1983 17:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I just started with 900k to provoke debate. I agree that it should be smaller, but 200 is a gross underestimation. Your average British ship houses and provides for men in excess of 300. I think the bar should be set about 300k and we can discuss from there. Bob 16:36, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

200 would be about right due to food been rationed and coal or diesel needed to make the journey--Owen1983 13:11, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Formerly an empty canon article, but an anon has begun to expand on the history. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why are the US Virgini Islands a part of the ECF and not Puerto Rico in this ATL? The US Virgin Islands are practically right next door to Puerto Rico.  Meanwhile both countries have a lot in common being both former American territories.  Mitro 17:09, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. Also, do you think that maybe Puerto Rico would have been attacked on Doomsday? As a US territory, it would be a valid target for at least a nuke on the capital city, if not one or two more. --DarthEinstein 20:36, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Having been to both the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico I can tell you both have quite different cultures. Their status as US territories would not help unite them after what happened to the US in this TL. While I could see the US VI’s joining Puerto Rico I think it's more likely that they would join the British Virgin Islands and the ECF. They are even closer and almost culturally identical. Plus even in OTL the US VI has more trade and contact with the Anglophone islands than it dose with Puerto Rico.--70.249.158.139 21:27, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well in all honesty I am not an expert of the area, but I assumed that since both places would retain their American governments post-DD, there would be some level of cooperation. Its possible they would even retain contact with Reagan and Bush for as long as they remained on the mainland.  Mitro 00:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * The ECF seems like basically a federation of Afro-Anglo-Caribbean cultures, and the USVI definitely belongs in that category (here's a little descripion of the local creole.) PR's culture is OTOH definitely Hispanic.  My understanding of the ECF's history is that the original members of the West Indies Federation decided to revive it and approached the formerly American islands; the USVI said yes, and PR said no.
 * One thing I've been thinking about lately: some of us, especially Mitro, have been saying for a while that South America should have more places where it has extended its influence - not dependencies exactly, but associated states or observer nations, just like Australia-New Zealand has. It occurred to me that Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are natural allies of the SAC.  Benkarnell 18:23, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe Puerto Rico and other Hispanic states would have observer membership in the SAC. Mitro 23:32, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe eventually, but the SAC is still somewhat new. Wasn't it only established in 2004? They could apply for observer status in the near future, I suppose. --DarthEinstein 02:13, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, that is over 5 years. Enough time to attract observers, I'd think, especially if they already had economic ties with the South American countries. Benkarnell 02:35, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also the SAC is the world's largest economy. Having free access to that market would attract a lot of nations.  Mitro 02:58, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very well. What about the Central American nations too? --DarthEinstein 03:34, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Nicaragua and Costa Rica are spoken for: Nicaragua's more a Soviet ally, and Costa Rica has tried to balance Soviet and South American influences. Belize is an ECF member.  We still have no idea what the hell's going on in Panama, although the eastern end of it was annexed to Colombia.  But El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala are potential SAC clients.  Benkarnell 03:41, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Bentwaters/Woodbridge Military Government
It's been brought to my attention that Mildenhall was such a large base that it would be targetted on Doomsday so I've moved my survivor to another US base in Suffolk.

Verence71 10:32, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * So if the name was condensed would it be.... Bentwood? :P--Oerwinde 11:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Here's a new proposal I cooked up. Are there any problems with this?

--Jnjaycpa 05:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

If you're looking for a handy Romanov this guy was a pretender/claimant to the Russian throne in 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Vladimir_Kirillovich_of_Russia

Verence71 11:31, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

this artle would clash with the Socialist Siberia (1983: Doomsday) articl but there might be room for it in SW Russia --Owen1983 14:35, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

As long as it stays in southwest Russia only and isn't too big (since this region was nuked fairly badly), I think that this would be fine. I look forward to its continuation. --DarthEinstein 15:21, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Not sure that Armenia and Azerbaijan would be so chummy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian-Azerbaijani_war_(1918%E2%80%931920)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_War

Verence71 19:41, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

No one in the Caucuses is exactly chummy with each other. In fact the region is a tinderbox of ethnic-hatred and violence. Not trying to make the region look bad or anything (I hear the people are friendly and the scenery is breathtaking) but look what happened our timeline. As soon as the Soviet Union collapsed (and in some cases even before) the region immediately descended into war. Literally everyone was fighting with another ethnic group at some point or another. Given this I have to wonder how stable a region like this would be.

Now there are a few people who I could see joining (or at least tolerate) a Russian based state if things got really bad (mainly Abkhazians, Ossetians, and perhaps Armenians). Others would violently oppose such a country (Georgians, Azerbaijanis, and Chechens). Given this I think sutch a state could work out, but it would need to be revised. Also I need to see if there are any major targets in the regon outside the major cities that would get blown up.--ShutUpNavi 02:24, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

It depends how the various elements of the Federation joined. As Shutup said some parts could join of their own free will whereas others, such as Georgia could be forced to join at gunpoint

Verence71 12:48, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

China
Not that I'm volunteering but has anyone created anything about survivor nations in China??

Verence71 20:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only around the edges. There's a page for Tibet, and Siberia controls Xinjiang and Manchuria. --DarthEinstein 20:43, December 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, only a northern part of Manchuria is a part of the USSR. Anyway, what happed to the Republic of China? --Grand Prince Paul II. 22:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

From what I can gather China descended into chaos after Doomsday with elements of the PLA fighting each other so perhaps China had a repeat of the post WWI Warlord Era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era

Verence71 00:08, December 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Republic of China is the official name of Taiwan, People's Republic of China being mainland communist china. Taiwan wasn't hit, but probably would have gotten a bit of fallout. Other than that I could see it being a major stabilizing force in southern China, stepping in to "claim their right as the true democratic government of China".--Oerwinde 05:24, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

According to a Singapore expedition, the capital of Taiwan was nuked. It can be assumed that the Taiwan government collapsed afterwards. Perhaps if the other cities were spared, it could become a successful survivor nation. --Jnjaycpa 06:02, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * What possible reason could there be for Taiwan to be nuked? An authoritarian government undergoing massive democratic unrest, with much of the world not even recognizing their political independence couldn't be much less of a threat to the soviets or NATO.--Oerwinde 08:35, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be nuked by China, if by anyone. --DarthEinstein 22:42, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I just doubt Taiwan would be more than an afterthought when facing nuclear attack from abroad.--Oerwinde 00:33, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think that just Taipei being nuked that isn't too unreasonable, though. --DarthEinstein 00:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

FYI: Taiwan (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 22:45, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

,, and
Individual articles on the member states of the. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Formerly empty article expanded on by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Owen. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Western Africa
I created a bunch of bare bones articles for Western Africa as it hadn't been touched yet aside for Liberia. Nigeria (1983: Doomsday) Ivory Coast (1983: Doomsday) West African Union (1983: Doomsday) Anyone is free to contribute, as I'm pretty much just going off Wikipedia for my info and am not an expert by far, I'd just like to see Africa not suck for once, and figure the destruction of the western world and the status quo is a good place for a change in direction. So far the vision I have has this: The rest is pretty open. Likely the rest of the surrounding nations go to chaos, but the West African Union's main goal is to establish stable, effective, democratic government in the area and is working hard to spread this to the rest of the region. The articles that are there are mostly placeholders just establishing where I was going with it. Feel free to flesh them out if you feel like it.--Oerwinde 06:27, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nigeria have a western educated, charismatic leader, basically does a Martin Luther King Jr with big speeches and stuff advocating for Africa to step in a different direction. To put aside its history of bloodshed and with the western world gone, to step up and take its place as a leader in the world. Outlines reforms, gets lots of followers, gets assassinated. Sparks revolution in Nigeria and democratic government is put in place with effective anti-corruption laws and military reforms to avoid the long strings of coups.
 * Togo is eventually pressured into fully democratizing by Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, and Nigeria. Its heavy agriculture economy eventually makes it a major food exporter. This is the reason for the other four pressuring it to democratize.
 * Ivory Coast, being one of the few african countries that has a stable government and welcomes europeans recieves a large influx of european refugees that eventually leads to major modernization of industries.
 * Ghana and Senegal, being mostly stable, recieve aid from the new Nigerian government and Ivory Coast to maintain stable effective governments and form strong ties between the 4 nations.
 * Added Senegal (1983: Doomsday), Ghana (1983: Doomsday), and Togo (1983: Doomsday)--Oerwinde 07:48, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Expanded the article on Nigeria and West African Union, added Ambazonia (1983: Doomsday).--Oerwinde 03:24, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Added Islamic Republic of Cameroon (1983: Doomsday) as mentioned in Nigerian history.--Oerwinde 11:56, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I haven't had time to read all of these, but overall it's a great idea - great work! This was part of the original raison d'etre of the TL: to eliminate the Western powers and have traditionally weak nations step to the forefront of world affairs. I think that maybe we should tweak the pages on Liberia in response to this. ISTR that we have the League of Nations intervening there to end the civil war this year. It seems much more likely to me that the WAU itself would accomplish that: it would boost its prestige, and it would keep the LoN from having an unrealistically large number of actions and successes in its first 2 years of existence. Benkarnell 16:02, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * This could be the operation that Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, etc. are working on that causes Nigeria to enter Ambazonia on its own. Originally I was thinking Guinea and Guinea-Bissau.--Oerwinde 19:15, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * As the creator of the Liberia articles I have to say I'm ok with any changes made to them involving this new plot. Mitro 00:14, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

What would be the West African Union's relationship to the SAC, ANZC, Communist Bloc, and ADC? --DarthEinstein 20:29, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say right now they'd be mostly neutral with most. The Communist bloc is against the general political beliefs of the Union so they would be closer to the rest. Being mostly French and English countries I would put the ANZC and possibly the ADC as the closest relations. New Britain and the New Union of South Africa would be the major foreign focus though I think. Also for the forseeable future they will mostly be a regional thing, improving conditions in West Africa. Though they've expanded rapidly and been mostly successful in spreading stable democracy in the region, economic stability and self sufficiency is their goal now before they overextend. They would mostly likely seek some sort of cooperative agreement with the New Union of South Africa.--Oerwinde 08:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created. Riley.Konner 15:17, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any ojections as to why this article should not be graduated. Riley.Konner 13:27, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created. --Fero 18:26, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

,, &
Three more ANZC Associate States I made GOPZACK 23:31, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Norfolk's still just an infobox, but that 's OK for now. Tuvalu's good: I like that it still has such a "third world" feel, and I like all the cultural details.  The "economy" section mentions Taiwan - I think the consensus has been that there is no Taiwan government anymore, since even if it was not nuked it probably would have been invaded by Chinese at some point.  So the Tuvaluan workers probably didn't get any of those back wages.  Benkarnell 18:34, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You should get in on the discussion on Taiwan. So far its got Taiwan taking some advantage of China's situation and claiming some mainland territory.--Oerwinde 18:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions Ben, I have deleted the Taiwan references for now until what exactly happened to Taiwan has been confirmed. My plan is to finish Tuvalu today, then move on to Norfolk island and finally Kiribati. --GOPZACK 21:11, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate only, any objections? --GOPZACK 21:37, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. Mitro 00:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'll add Belau to that list - since I had written so much Palauan/Belauan history in the Micronesia article, I figured I'd create the page. Now the Cook Islands are the only ANZC state without a page, hooray! It's funny that we're learning so much about these Pacific islands, yet most of Australia and New Zealand themselves remains a mystery. I guess it's just a big prject to tackle, since they're so important to the TL. The basic theme for Belau is that it's a somewhat ornery client state, which is reflected in its decision to push the native spelling of its name. Benkarnell 17:46, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate only, any objections? --GOPZACK 22:21, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

The Piedmont Republic
This is where I should have put this discussion in the first place. I am just getting used to this wiki stuff.

In finding the Republic of Blue Ridge, I was elated. That is just north of me (my daughter lives there in OTL). I live in Greenville and wondered what would have happened in the upstate of SC.

The nearest thing to the upstate has been information that Charlotte was nuked, and that Anderson, SC, is an African-American racist city state. Toccoa, GA, turns out to be its white racist counter-part after the fall of the Athens-based provisional government of Georgia.

To the south, Augusta, GA, is gone, as is the SC capital of Columbia. The four uptate SC counties bordering NC - Oconee, Pickens, Greenville, and Spartanburg - form the home of South Carolinian refugees. The Oconee Nuclear Power station has been damaged, but not destroyed, leaving the area mostly "in the dark," literally, though at first some energy may have been coming down from unaffected coal-fired facilities in what became the Republic of Blue Ridge. That disappears as it is re-routed or destroyed by early vandals in that developing republic.

I need some help in setting up a page for the article. Can anyone help me develop the page based on the templates available? --SouthWriter 21:52, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I got you started. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Piedmont_Republic_(1983:_Doomsday) --BrianD 22:56, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Khanate of Aralia
Shouldn't we make this at least an article? NewsHour referred to it, and hence it is automatically valid, right? I just want a "green light" to make the article. :) Edward Hannis 01:56, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing is automatically valid when it comes to 1983: Doomsday. Please read the  for a better explanation.  Also you might want to talk to User:Jpsarmento who was the one who wrote the headline in the first place.  Mitro 01:58, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know that, sorry. I simply made the wrong assumption that NewsHour was only based on things that were true without change (permanent), that hence the Khanate existed for sure. I guess I was wrong. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 02:38, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi,answering your question,yes,i think we should make an article on the Khanate of Aralia but i'm new here so i guess i'll need some help Jpsarmento 1:11,January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Quad Cities Alliance
I need to know. What would happen to the Quad Cities area if Clinton, IA (about thirty miles northwest of Davenport) was nuked? Would Davenport still be standing?

--Jnjaycpa 05:02, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

An article on Haiti that I will expand on in the future. Thoughts and comments appreciated--Vladivostok 21:51, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Federation of Greece
Awhile back I decided to have the CoG host a referendum on whether to tighten the power of the "central" government and make the nations come together into a Federation. Well, it was supposed to be New Year's Eve, 2009, and I suppose the time's come to write an article on the Confederation of Greece becoming the Federation of Greece. Now the CoG's page will become obsolete and I'll create a new article. Though one problem is; will I have to go back and now change every mention of the "Confederation" to "Federation", or only from henceforth when Greece is being mentioned say "Federation"? Mr.Xeight 01:01, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think that you would only need to change things that refer to them in the present. Anything that happened in the past would continue to reference the Confederation, as thats what it was then, mentions in foreign relations and such would need to be changed.--Oerwinde 08:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Oer. Mr.Xeight 16:25, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Aragonese Statelet(s)
I don't think I've ever told anyone this before, but I'm a bit of an "Aragonophile, reading most articles pertaining to Aragon and its colonies on the Il Bethisad site, and I've read some article on the kingdom, empire, crown, and language on Wikipedia. I was wondering, would at all be possible to create an Aragonese Statelet somewhere in the Huesca Valley or any other Aragonese speaking area? I'd personally make it a crowned republic, only because I'm partial monarchies, a person can rise to the top in this topsy-turvy world, and because we all know, monarchies are fun! The only thing I'm picturing at the moment is that there would be an upsurge in the Aragonese language and a man who survived the Apocalypse and became the dictator making Aragon into a crowned republic taking power for himself. Is this okay to do? Mr.Xeight 01:01, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

The would suit me perfectly. Mr.Xeight 01:03, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the Spain page, it looks like most of the area is under the control of the Iberian Confederation.--Oerwinde 09:45, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

IMHO the argonese speaking people are going to want there own place and i think Mr.Xeight has a good idea --Owen1983 14:14, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Owen, Aragonese nationalism is almost dead. The Chunta Aragonesista would have to implement Aragonese back into society and eventually their plan of making Aragonese the most widely-spoken language would take awhile. It no doubt have to be forced to be spoken and taught at school, used for business, as a ecclesiastical language, etc until the people in the area who don't use it at home start to. Oer, I noticed that last night. Through the innacurate use of eyeballing, by the looks of it Zaragoza, the Chunta Aragonesista's HQ and the old capital of the Aragonese Empire is not under IC control, fortunately, though a good chunk of northern & western Aragon is, unfortunately. So, I suppose the CA (I'm too lazy to write out Chunta Aragonesista each time) could offer a stable government in Zaragoza, using Aragonese nationalism and the failure of the Castillian Government to take care of its people to get them control. Eventually they'd expand and this is where I can become most useful...
 * Power-struggles make strange bedfellows. You guys can all clearly tell as all-knowing gods of this alt-universe Greece is as land-hungry as Sicily. So, the Greeks could begin to look west for control. Now they see the Aragonese State, in-power, but vulnerable. So a partnership begins: Greeks and Aragonese working together to save Europe and Iberia. Now Aragon would be able to resist becoming a satellite-state of Greece, though Aragon becomes smiliar to Algeria, siding with Greece over Sicily and getting small-scale Greek aid, as well as Greece to recognize it as a sovereign nation, saying Aragon has right to the lands controlled by the IC, helping to stablize its control over any fringe lands, such as the coast, and an upsurg ein Greek merchants in the western port-cities.

Mr.Xeight 16:24, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Another possibility is that the Iberian confederation is an alliance of several Juntas in the region. Maybe an extremely nationalistic Junta joins the confederation, and maneuvers its way into the lead role, instituting some changes to the confederation including Aragonese as the national language. The IC was mainly formed to defend against Basque invasion, and they are less of a threat now, so the IC could be somewhat unstable at this point, nothing much has been written about it after 1997 except that it added a new Aragonese Junta in 2007. So this could be perfect. It looks like almost half of the confederation is Aragonese, so this could be plausible. Tristanbreiker is responsible for the corresponding articles though so you''d have to get his sayso I suppose. Zaragoza was hit according to the spain page so I don't think it would be a major hotbed of Aragonese nationalism, though it would be ripe for reclaimation.--Oerwinde 19:21, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Copperstown
Upon reading of the plans for a new baseball & football hall of fame it got me thinking about Cooperstown, could a city state there be possible? (I'm not to sure what was nuked in that area so if anyone knows let me know, thanks)--GOPZACK 17:37, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Saguenay War
if 1983 Doomsday was real what would you opinion be

here is my opinion Canada started the war not Saguenay it wouldd not surprise me if the assasination was sponsored by these Neo Nazi thugs who call themselves the Canada First Party --Owen1983 23:32, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI, the Canada First party are not "Neo-Nazi thugs" as you claim. They merely support Canadian isolationism.--71.52.245.246 20:43, December 29, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous92


 * If it were real I wouldn’t want either side to fight in this pointless war (if it were real, the war serves a good purpose for this timeline). Now if I had to take sides I would pick Canada. Regardless if the assassination was sponsored by Canada itself, Saguenay is still starting a war over the death of one man. Starting a war is hardly an appropriate response to that, and scores of innocent people are going to die as a result. And we don’t even know if it was just the political party or a lone extremist. The fact that Saguenay is carving out a puppet state out of former Canadian territory seems to prove to me they weren’t starting this war in defense. --ShutUpNavi 00:16, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

after reading this I am not going to take any sides becuse there both been stupid starting a war becuse one guy got shot and we are not sure if this was sponsored by Canada and i think Sagueney have reacted without understanding he fact and canada has acted on them there are no winner or losers in war only stupid poeple--Owen1983 00:58, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The war is being fought over for more than just the assassination, similarly to how the First World War was fought over for more than the death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. However I would not like to take sides. I would prefer to treat this with a neutral point of view. --DarthEinstein 03:10, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Saguenay feels threatened by Canada due to its claim on their territory, which is recognized by the international community, plus Canadian controlled territory surrounded them on 3 sides. Saguenay is the major stronghold of French separatism in Quebec, so there's years of resentment built up. The assassination was the spark on the powder keg, though obviously if they reacted so as quickly as they did they had been planning for it as an inevitability. Superior got on board as a means to solidify their hold on Canadian territory on the great lakes, and Canada is the defender. If I were to choose sides here I would be siding with Canada, but I understand why Saguenay did it. Superior I would see as opportunistic land-grabbers and what we know today as a "Rogue State"--Oerwinde 00:42, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Gathering Order
i think we need to talk about the gathering order. the amount of US kit the CANZ ended up with is quite important. --HAD 18:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to know is why did you remove the ships that you did? What was your reasoning?  Were they in South Pacific at the time, etc.?  Mitro 01:48, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

my reaeasoning is that we know for definate the the nimitz group survived doomsday, but that the other groups were nuked. as for the other ships,, apart from the Benjimmin Frabklin, i dpon't know what happened to them. and if i remember the guidelines: if in doubt, it weas nuked. --HAD 18:56, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless the ships were at port, its unlikely they were nuked.--Oerwinde 11:29, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

what if they were attacked from Soviet Submarines? Anyway, i thought from re ading the article reading the artile about the nimitz trhat she was the only surviving she and her battle USN battlegroup. --HAD 13:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

That's right, we've talked quite a bit about the allied ships after Doomsday, what happened to all the Soviet ships? Was there a "Soviet Gathering Order"? Could some of these ships have continued the war several months or years into the post-Doomsday world? --DarthEinstein 17:30, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I did mention some ships getting to safe, Siberian-controlled bases, but that's it. Are you looking for a specific number?--Vladivostok 17:42, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

what we need mis a group consenous on how many ships survied. even if say, 3 USN battlegroups ssurvived, i don't think the CANZ could afford to maintaki all those ships. i still thibnnk those ships we don't know about should not be included on the ,list. what we know is whart we see, in m,my opinion. aftere all, a USN aircraft catrrier/submarine/whatever is a very powerful thing. a single Kidd class destroyer could take out most of thwe BRAZILLIAN NAVY. --HAD 19:46, January 6, 2010 (UTC)