Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't somebody updating that map above? RandomWriterGuy 06:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I tried to do it, but is impossible to add those letters.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stage 1 - start of industrialization, steam engines discovered and produced, small cottage industries

 * Hanthawaddian colonies
 * Siena & Florence
 * Rest of Itsaygahi + vassal and colonies
 * Vietnamese colonies, vassals
 * Newfoundland
 * UAA
 * Spainish colonies
 * Prussian colonies

Stage 2 - urbanization, small factories near cities, experimentation with railways and steam powered ships

 * Hungarian colonies & puppets
 * Persian colonies, vassals & puppets
 * French colonies - New Songhai
 * Rest of Chinese territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Finnish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * Naples + vassals & puppets - Siena & Florence
 * Spain + vassals
 * Hanthawaddy main nation
 * Turan
 * Wallachia
 * Nippon
 * Joeson
 * Prussia
 * North-east Itsaygahi
 * Vietnam

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common

 * All of Russian territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * All of Swedish territory + colonies, vassals & puppets
 * Kanada
 * All of Hungarian territory - colonies, puppets
 * Toeh Ngoa Nyoing
 * West, north and east China
 * Persia
 * All of French territory + vassals & puppets

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns

 * None

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Stability for non-player nations
Just to clarify: from this point on, the population and time ruled factors in the algorithm will be replaced with bonus points for player nations. For non-player nations, it will go as follows:

2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points

Any problems with this system?

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I tweaked it slightly just a second ago, and it is correct as above. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Stability for Player States
Okay, time for the new system. This should be a lot more simple and a lot fairer.

System on Stability
The new system will distinguish government stability score (GSS) from common stability score (CSS). The sum is overall stability score (OSS).

Government stability score is basically the stability curve. The formula is 10*d^1.25/1.2^d where d is the number of decades the government has been in power, rounded to the nearest year. It is rounded to the nearest 0.1.

Common stability score starts at zero, and measures the stability of the common people. This number starts at zero. Economic improvements, propaganda, and religious revivals are +0.5 per year. Expansion and war are -1 per year. Make the most out of your expansion, and choose wisely guys.

When OSS reaches 0, you get a mod rebellion, so you can always change governments before then to keep this from happening.

System on War Algorithms
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/z+y)*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. But you still lose -1 CSS for each turn you take during the war. However, it should be noted that the person who chooses how long the war is going to last is the winner. The winner may not hold the war if their OSS goes to zero. A country fighting on multiple fronts will lose twice as many OSS each turn.

If your OSS reaches zero during a war, you will have a rebellion during the war but it will not affect your overall score.

System on Rebellions
For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Why this works:
 * The stability scores are much lower and much less variable.
 * It actually takes into account usage of resources.
 * It prevents people from accumulating huge stability scores and wielding them against blank player nations who only have the stability curve.
 * It discourages too many changes of government because countries are most vulnerable as soon as they change government.
 * Rebellions have a good chance but they won't necessarily take over the entire country or completely be annihilated.
 * It's possible to keep your stability score artificially just above zero, but if you get invaded, you're screwed.

Discussion
How long will it be until the entire chart is completed? LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:26, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Problem with Stability Curve
I have identified a problem with the stability curves (both the NPC one and the one that factors into the full-on player stability): both make many real-world events impossible to replicate in-game unless every player agreed beforehand. For example, Napoleon only had held on to his government for a few years before he went around conquering places, yet he still managed to conquer many many nations in a very short time. Under the current stability system if the algorithm was used for every conflict, his war could not be replicated, he would have lost every war he fought. Same goes for Hitler's expansion in World War 2. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:16, February 8, Here's an idea, if someone decides to pull a Napoleon, is let them cash in points that they accumulate during the game. These points can only be lost by spending them on a 'free takeover of a country of reasonable size (Sweden can't take over Russia, Korea can't take over China, ect.), keep a large empire together, or save their economy if everyone else's is in the crapper, to get these things, we should have done something big (.a quarter of a token per small sized nation we take over, 1 for every medium sized, and 5 for large empires taken over) like take a nation over or kept our nation together since a certain date (3 points for the people who joined when the map game was made a year ago). This is like an 'implausibility token' of sorts, though we should not hand them out like candy. CrimsonAssassin 02:37, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Iukcasin
Can I join please? I saw this map game and I thought it looked like fun. If I can join I would like to be Indonesia? Iukcasin 18:32, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there is no Indonesia.the closer to Indonesia (in what is the bigger nation of the area) in this game right now is Pahang, but it is being invaded by Naples and other nations.In the other hand, there are at least three states on the islands of Java and Bali that you can control if you must conrol a state on the Indonesian area.And remember: Be plausible.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:23, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can I be Rhineland, and if so how would you suggest going about reforming Germany?Iukcasin 18:11, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

You can be Rhineland, although I fear that it may be a bit difficult to play as a small and landlocked nation. Reforming Germany would be dificult, especially with the Swedish influencing Hanover into working for them. You might be able to have dynastic union with Westphalia and then be able to expand from there, or attack Westphalia, but either way its a lot of war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:48, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Can I be Burma?Iukcasin 19:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why not. CrimsonAssassin 19:04, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwill
I think we should keep an eye on Saamwill. He has shown an increasing disregard for the rules, and his irrational descisions are violating the simplest rule of all. The unwritten rule of plausibility. I think he may become the next banning if he doesn't start following the rules better.

Yank 22:41, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well tell him then! That's the simplest way... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:17, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

He also frequently edits past turns. Now, I can accept people editting a couple hours late, but almost a day after it's passed? And sometimes even after several days have passed? That is a problem. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:46, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sometime implies that I have done it more than once... I only edited days several days ago once, but, now I know, I'll just have to miss a turn. Moreover, if something isn't plausible, you just them... I do admitt however to posting almost a day late. My schedule only allows me a lot of the time to be able to check every 2 days. Saamwiil 05:31, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Bulgaria

 * Location: 5
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Bulgaria(L)/Dobruja(M)/Moldavia(M)/Wallachia(M)/Persia(M)/Naples(S)/Jerusalem(MV)/Ricasolia(S)/Russia(M)/Lithuania(M)/Hungary (S)/Tuscany(SV)/Lombardy(SV): 32
 * Expansion: -0
 * Puppet States:-0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: (14 if we use generator, if not TBD)
 * Motive (Life or Death):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Total= 81

Turan

 * Location: 4
 * Turan(L)/Mesopotamia(MV)/Ottomans(MV)/Prussia(S): 10
 * Expansion: -1
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: 31
 * Motive(Political):5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:5
 * 1*9=9
 * Editcount:321
 * 321/9*pi=112.05
 * Total= 64

Result
Bulgarian victory. Bulgaria is entitled at most ((82/(82+64))*2)-1=12.32% *1.5= 18.48%Turan. Now, using the RNG, the war will last 6 years, letting Turan get (18.48)*(1-1/(2(6)))=16.94% of Turan's territory (plus the half of Bulgaria which they already own. Bulgaria can't expand into Turkish territory beyond the Bulgarian portion)

Discussion
I need to know how to handle rebellion stability. Because Bulgaria hasn't lasted a year yet, so giving it a stability score of 0 seems like it would be unfair. Furthermore, Detectivekenny said that he was making the area owned by the revolting nation equal to half the area they want in order to make it so they can't totally crush the nation they are fighting against. So having it be just 0 from the curve seems to be totally unlike what he was talking about. For the only other algorithmed revolt in game, he used a random number generator for the result, so should it be used? We need to determine what to do, but from Kenny's posts on this subject it is apparent that he had no want for us to just give them a 0 in stability making it very hard for them to win any war. I'm leaning towards a random number, maybe 10-20 or something? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:40, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

I think Turan's location should be changed to 4. I think we should use a random number generator like Random.org to decide Bulgaria's stability. You should set the minimum at 10, and the maximum at 30, and generate a random number that way.Flagmania 19:52, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

You're right about the location, I'd transferred it over from another algorithm. Currently the random chance seems the best idea due to the precedent, but I'd like more imput. Anyways, I already generated the number if we use that method, to get 14. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:15, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia is Turan's ally. And, Mesopotamia and the Ottoman empire are helping. Saamwiil 05:56, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia hasn't mentioned a single thing on the game page about helping Turan in the war. If no one else has any ideas, I'll do the random generator as the official one. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:35, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the revolters are not the Turkish puppet governments that Turan set up, its the Bulgarian people themselves, so it is just one revolt. Furthermore, your set-up with a Macedonia makes no sense, the Macedonians lived further to the west, so splitting it in the first place was pointless. Your entire claiming of Bulgaria in one turn was implausible and we should have stopped it then, but I decided to be nice and give you a chance to not lose everything. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:49, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Saam, I'm go to say this once: The moderators of this game have made a ruling about your ridiculous attempts to go around the rules of this game. Quit complaining. Lordganon 18:03, February 11, 2012 (UTC) There are not 2 revolts, there is one revolt of Bulgarian People vs. the GTA. So either we use Turan as a representation of the GTA, or we don't have any representation of the GTA so I treat it as an NPC revolt and make it automatically successful. Your entire taking of Bulgaria was messed up, you had two nations which years before had been at war, including a nation founded after revolting from Turan, give up their sovereignty to a sworn enemy. It's highly implausible and we should have stopped it then. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:48, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I know where Macedonia is, I had to give it a name that's distinguish it from a more Turkish Rumelia.
 * 2) I didn't claim all of Bulgaria in one turn. There was an armstice, and 2-3 years later, they formed under 1 government.
 * 3) If the people are revolting against the local governments then the algorythim shouldn't be against Turan, it should be against the local governments.
 * 4) I'm not complaining people, I'm just stating some incompatabilities in the revolts. BIG DIFFERENCE. I was going to go along and just accept the losses before I noticed them. -Unsigned post by Saamwiil

Fair, enough. But, shouldn't the other 4 states also be giving help, (according to the GTA constitution, if attacked every member nation must go to war.) Therefore, the following states shoul be included as helping Turan: Rumelia, Macedonia, ICR & Turkish Coast. Sorry for the inconvinience, but I keep noticing things... Saamwiil 15:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Rumelia and Macedonia I didn't include because the vast majority of their population and the majority of their armed forces will have joined up with revolt, so those states will have collapsed into civil disarray practically. ICR I didn't inlcude because (unless I missed it) Deansims himself didn't post that he was helping and its a player nation. What's the Turkish coast? LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:44, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, for member nations its kinda automatic. Kinda like if someone attacked the USA, all states would go to war. And the Turkish coast was another state carved out of Rumelia to protect the Turkish majority near the coast.Saamwiil 16:42, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, carving out new vassals out of your territory in the middle of a war is kind of cheap. It would be like if Naples was in a war and I decided to split 3 small Italian nations away from Naples to help in the war. Since the ICR is a player nation, you can't control Deansims' nation. One misconception I think you might be laboring under is that there is a significant Turkish population in Bulgaria. In OTL, only 10% of the population of Bulgaria is Turkish, and that is with 200 additional years of Ottoman rule that this alternate Bulgaria didn't have. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:36, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The thing about no new vassals made to help you in the war was already done, when in an earlier war Russia tried to get an NPC nation to become their vassal in a very close war, so it's already a precedent and if someone else pulled a vassal out of no where in the middle of the war I'd strike it down just the same. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:44, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I didn't think of the benifits at the beggining of the war, besides forming a safe place for Turkish citizens. And, Turan has a much stronger assimilatory stance than the Ottoman Empire, almost cruel in fact. But there also has been a lot of migration to both Greenland and Bulgaria. And, even before the 2nd war, Turan had conquered the coast. All these thing attribute to a Turkish majority around the coast.Saamwiil 18:08, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia is sending supplies...Saamwiil 22:29, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I added Prussia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:01, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The war has now ended due to a mutual treaty, here is the new map:

I found it more plausible that there would be an enclave of the area for the large Turkish minority to flee to, and both nations would want the war to end as early as possible. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:13, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Swedish colonies
Hey Collie, sorry to boher you but the recent expansion with Thorlaand and Asgard in meant to be a 2 to 3 pixel wide line trying to reach the other colony. Also Wonderlaand is expanding over across to the other side of the map. Thanks! Scandinator (talk) 23:55, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't knew that first one, but it wouldn't be a bit difficult to communicate with the westernmost parts, given that the capital of your colony is probably on Galapagos?at least before the technology is good enough, something that happened on the western most parts (hypothethical example: Hanthawaddy declares war on Sweden and invades Wonderlaand from Bi Hloa) would take months to arrive on the capital.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:44, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

True, which is why the capital is to be moved after I gain Fiji.Scandinator (talk) 13:26, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also I noticed that you forgot Svalbard. Sweden annexed it in 1802.Scandinator (talk) 07:07, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Full
Can somebody please move the already finished threads except for the important enough to be kept here?the page already hit 172,000 bytes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:11, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

I have done so. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:18, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:38, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

In-game currency
I've been reeding some post, and I think it would be a good idea to have an in-game currency, such as a Common World Currency (CWCs). This system should be used because it would make transaction between x number of countries a lot easier. E.g. China would buy Kazakhstan for 50CWCs. Due to the complexity, however, I propose that everyone gain the same amount every year, and the amount may be boosted with economic activity. Say we all get 1WCW a year. To make it more realistic however, moderators may judge how much the nation already has.

I believe this is a good idea, we should look into it. Saamwiil 16:50, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

This seems very complicated to account for, as it would require us to keep track of our nation's economies from year to year. If we were an electronic video game, then that would be a great solution, but stability is already controversial and complicated as it is.

Maybe the size of the territory should factor in? Like for ever X number of pixels in the nation, that nation which sells it away would gain that number of stability points and the nation that gets it loses that much stability points?LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:40, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nag, that would waver stability too much. Saamwiil 18:15, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Losing/gaining a large amount of money would make your nation much less/much more stable. The only problem I see is that it makes all land equal in value, which is not. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:32, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think that making a simple system for money wouldn't be to complex. Just start it ina year in the future. (5 years from now). Each player'd get 1 CWC a turn, and an extra .5 for economic activity. I think it'd be simple enough.Saamwiil 18:50, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

There's too many factors going into the economy, it would be like the old stability system. There's the amount of industry, the amount of agriculture, the amount of foreign trade, the quality of the banking system, plus the victories in wars that would give them more money and the amount of colonial profit for each nation, there's too many factors. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, how about everyone gets x amount in their own currency. The value of your currency is y depending on your activities in the recent years (e.g. wars, economic growth).

Paying for something would look like:

(x/y)*z where z value of target person's currency. Saamwiil 22:27, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

But wars and such differ so much, the value of the currency has too many factors going into it. I like a stability bonus/detractor better, it is much simpler. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Revolt Moderator
Since in recent years with the Bulgarian revolt and the Indian protests against Persia and other moderator events, and I was leading the discussion of future events, I seem to be handling a bunch of minority-sovereignty/rights revolts/protests in nations, so I was wondering if I should get the official title of "revolt moderator" to determine when minority groups begin protesting for independence and/or more rights. I plan on most revolts occuring after other siginificant revolts occur in the area, or when the main nation is destabilized by losing a war or a bad economy or natural disaster or something. Is this all right with everyone? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with it as long as you read back to the start of PM. Due to changes in history some ethnical rivallies and disputes have never started, e.g. the OTL Croats/Serbs was the result of some Slavs(Croats) abandoning the other group of Slavs(Serbs) to the Ottoman Empire. But in this case the Ottomans never reached that area. However some like Greece/Turan will be there.Scandinator (talk) 05:09, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm taking into account changes due to the alternate history. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Industrialisation
Just a heads-up, spain dosent appear in any of the "Max. industrialisation levels for the worlds nations" sections, and I'm a bit confused about that. Can someone put it in, and also, is there a page on the stages of industrialisation, what they mean, and any benefits? if so, please put a link to it so I can find it. ManofSteele 05:46, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Your on stage 2. I was moving them today for 1810. I've added some of the info for the stages into the titles but to qualfy for stage 3 you must complete the Barcelona to Lisbon railway.Scandinator (talk) 08:35, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Talking about it, am i doing what i need to do to complete the stage 2? and, in realistic dates, the Zagráb-Buda railway should be finished about when, if started in 1810?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

When does Korea start industrialization? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 23:18, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Korea can get straight into Stage 2 NOW. The length of the railway is short Collie, so I'd say 2 to 4 years.Scandinator (talk) 05:38, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Is Nippon stage 1 or 2? Cause Nippon is in both of those lists.... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:30, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Stage 2.Scandinator (talk) 20:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Really? But Nippon only entered stage 1 in 1800, I thought stage 2 would begin in 1830? Or can you like skip ahead if you improve your economy a lot like I've done? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:18, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody expects the Spanish Industrialism! CrimsonAssassin 02:35, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I decided to move Nippon to Yellow due to its recent gains in Kamchatka and also its proximity to China and Russia. Scandinator (talk) 08:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well I guess a thank you is in order: thank you Scan! Oh and does the tripled expansion count for colonial expansion? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:30, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:33, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Prussian-Brandenburg War (1805)
I first wanted to apologize, I had posted something earlier today, and either I did something wrong or it didn't get saved, so I reposted in 1809, I hope this doesn't piss anyone off. Secondly, can I get a war algorithim or something for the invasion of Brandenburg, so I know how much territory I can take? Clearly, I want as much as possible, but I'm not quite sure how much I would be allowed to take. JonAllenMichael 04:56, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia

 * Location: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Prussia(L)/France(M)/United Principalities(MV)/Mecca(MV)/Neue Brandenburg(M)/Nippon(M)/Chamoru(MV)/UAA(M)/Sweden(M)/Denmark(MV)/England(MV)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/Arabia(MV)/Flanders(MV)/Fjordlaand(MV): 37
 * Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States:-0
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Stability: 21
 * Motive ( Political ):5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 6
 * UTC: 14:42
 * Edit Count :198
 * 198/32*pi= 1943.8 6 0%
 * Total= 89

Brandenburg

 * Location: 5
 * Brandenburg(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppets:0
 * Stability: 25 (government not changed since AGC days)
 * Motive( Life or Death ):10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:1
 * Total= 55

Result
Prussian victory. Prussia can annex 23.1% of Brandenburg with a six year war Prussia annexes 19.2% of Brandenburg.

Discussion
thank you! And sorry if I drove you guys mad, it was my fault for not knowing how the algorithim worked. Next time, I'll post earlier. I'd like for Prussia to take as much of the coast as possible, and then symetrically move west. Heck, I'll even take Berlin if possible. Like I said, the point of this war was an attempt to shift the balance of power in Eastern Germany over to Prussia, hopefully I did that. JonAllenMichael 14:57, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I know it won't make much of a differnce, but Turan was sending supplies.

Map Issues
Hey Collie, sorry to trouble you again but Sweden is missing Hanover (1809), South east Greenland (1806 to 1809), Svalbard (1802) and one round of expansion from Thorlaand of 15250 sqkm. Scandinator (talk) 06:51, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also, France must be coloreted in Russia's color. --Galaguerra1 16:47, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

And New madrid Expanded 1550 SqKm three times, i.e. 4650 SqKm. Also Spain took that old ACG colony down near Perth. ManofSteele 22:39, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also Chamoru's expansion into Micronesia has again been disregarded. Those two little islands southwest of Chamoru were invaded by Chamoru. I thought I had rectified this in 1805, but it seems to have been of no-avail. The 1805 map has how it should be in Micronesia if you want reference, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:54, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Also Naples, Vietnam, and Persia's expansion into Pahang was not shown. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:25, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Done!!! I've fixed all the issues raised here. Scandinator (talk) 06:01, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Except you actually made it worse, if you looked at a map of Southeast asia, you would find that Thailand does not control all of mainland Malaysia, nowhere near that amount. I'm undoing your update to the map, due to the fact that that there is no way that we would have taken that much from Pahang.. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:31, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

NVM, I didn't see where Collie gave you permission, so sorry for that. But we need to fix the map, but I can't count the pixels, so if you could make a new version that can have the right Vietnamese land? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:55, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithim
Ok, what can I do to get an algorithim call for the Prussian-Brandenburgian War? I've messaged the mods, I've posted on talk, and I've posted on the game's page. I'm about to say I just took over the whole thing, since I've been trying to get this arbitrated for 3 days now. I want to work on my country, but it is kind of hard when I declared peace 2 years ago, and I have no idea how much territory I can take. I'd totally RP it, but since this is my first time attacking a stronger country than I with the algorithim, I didn't want to be accused of being "implausible." Can someone please, tell me how to get an algorithim going? Do I just do it myself or what? I didn't post in 1809 or 1810 waiting for a response. Will someone please help me? JonAllenMichael 16:20, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I made one.Is incomplete, off course, but you'll have an idea. I need the mods to complete it. --Galaguerra1 16:53, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Do we typically need to make our own like that and let the mods complete it for us? Also, mods, is it cool if I wait till you arbitrate what happens in the war before I make my posts? JonAllenMichael 20:26, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

There is no rule saying that players cannot make their own algorithms. Anyone can make their own algorithm a moderator just has to check to make sure it is fair. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:16, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I just didn't know, thanks for making things clear! JonAllenMichael 06:38, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, can I have a mod fill in the the Prussian-Brandenburgian War algorithim up top? JonAllenMichael 06:39, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Russo-Turksh War(1812)
future algorithm section for the enevitable war that will be caused by Turan exploding bombs in crimea, therefore initiating an act of war that killed russian citizens, therefore declaring war on Russia. Turan has decided to go foarward even further...oh well, I guess it means war. STOP BREACHING RUSSIAN SOVREIGNTY!

Russian Empire

 * Location: 3


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Poltical): 5


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Update: 10


 * Russia(L)/Poland-Lithuania(M)/France(M)/Sweden(M)/Baltic Alliance(MV)/Fjordlaand(MV)/Swedish Arabia(MV)/Persia(M)/China(M)/Kazakhstan(MV)/Armenia(MV)/Arabia(MV)/ Iroquois Confederacy(SV)/ Burgundy(MV)/United Principalities(MV)/Mecca(M)/Malouinas(SW)/Naples(M)/Lombardy(MV)/Tuscany(MV)/Israel(MV)/Egypt (S):51


 * Chance:9


 * 2055 edits
 * 2055 edits


 * 3:11=3*1*1=3
 * 3:11=3*1*1=3


 * 2055/3*pi=215199.0 9 66%
 * 2055/3*pi=215199.0 9 66%


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 16
 * Population Ratio(was this decided on? cross out if not):1:10?=10pts?


 * Puppets: -1


 * Total:104(114???-population ratio actual factor decided on or not?)

GTA

 * Location: 5
 * Elevation: 2


 * Motive(Political): 5


 * Expansion:-4(war with bulgaria-military actions)


 * Military update: 0


 * Turan (L)/Rumelia(MV)/Ottoman Empire(MV)/Mesopotamia(MV) /Crimean Rebels(M )/ICR(M)/Wallachia(MW)/Moldovia(MVW)/Haiti(M)/Malouinas(S): 21


 * Chance:1


 * 369 edits
 * 369 edits


 * time: 16:18=1*6*8=42
 * time: 16:18=1*6*8=42


 * 369/42*pi=2660.1 1 35%
 * 369/42*pi=2660.1 1 35%


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:29


 * Puppets:-1


 * Total:68

Result
Russian Victory. Russia is entitled to ((104/(104+68))-0.5)*2*1.5=31.39% of Turan. How long the war will last and the exact amount of territory that can be taken is Lx's to decide.

Discussion
Sweden will withdraw only if Turan gives up colonizing Greenland. Scandinator (talk) 00:55, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Untill then, does Russia have the Support of Swedish Vassals or puppets?(material support would be fine, doesnt have to be military)-Lx (leave me a message) 01:00, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Military support from all Swedish states but Hanover since it is too new.Scandinator (talk) 01:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Before anything, I would like to know where the stability numbers for Russia and Turan came from...the economic and other things and propaganda/revivals(governement reforms)...you know...I would just like to see that graph filled in for at least Russia and Turan so i could see the exact numbers and the exact factors...please...it drives me crazy otherwise...-Lx (leave me a message) 02:57, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

How is it life or death for Russia if Turan are just trying to take Crimea, at most Ukraine? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:05, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

becasue turan "attacked first" by blowing up bombs in Russia-Lx (leave me a message) 15:07, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm seriously tired of your tipical argument that "the propaganda convinced the people that it is life or dead". Really, Russia was only menaced lika that during the Northern Wars. The people is not so stupid to belive that every war that Russia joins in is a menace to the sovereignity of the country. --Galaguerra1 17:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

How the heck is Malouinas helping both sides at the same time. BTW, this would be political for both. The Neapolitan urge for the Russians to totally destroy Turan is just their opinion, not Russias. And we really do need that stability chart filled out. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:26, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

What I think we should do is add a category in the motive for something like an act of war being commited against a nation but not realy a threat to sovreignty type of thing(aka, turan exploding bombs in Crimea and creating the CPA)-Lx (leave me a message) 22:48, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

GTA has an armt, and ICR has posted already that it is in the war. Moreover, in the rules, it says you may form allaince with NPC nations. So, I do believe, Tuareg, Brunei, Morocco & Shahzrur may join the war. Saamwiil 03:09, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

The GTA is an alliance between nations, not a nation itself. It can't fight in the war. You are not allowed to control NPC nations and make them help you in a war. Especially since 1 of those nation isn't even Muslim, 1 can't even contact your nation, 1 is in a war by itself and can't help you, and one was formed by enemies of the Turks that broke away in a war and will not want to back a losing ship. Add this to the fact that you didn't even try to build any relationship up with these nations prior to the war, I am going to rule no on letting you get them to join. You brought this on yourself for picking a fight with Russia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:26, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Wait up, if Mesopotamia and the exclave are vassals, then why Rumelia is a vassal? at best it would be a puppet state, as more than two vassals are not allowed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:12, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I added the -1 for the puppet. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:26, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

So, Lx, how long will this war last? What are your demands? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:50, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, GTA is a nation (besides its name). Each member nation has to supply a certain amount to the government, depending on how Turkish they are. Ironically, the more Turkish you are, the more you supply. Anyhow, GTA DOES have an army. ~Saamwiil

The GTA has no territory, therefore it can't be a nation. All of its forces are from other nations, and thus would go under the nation they came from. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:03, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to say this one last time. Saamwiil, the moderators have ruled a decision. One that I agree with, for that matter. So, quit arguing with them. I won't tell you again. Lordganon 01:27, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Question
When is it okay for Finland to let a colony independent? And how long should the colony that declared independent wait before creating another colony elsewhere (or if not, then never mind)? (Anyway, I also plan to keep Hyvinkää [OTL Timor] until 1975 and I would like to keep Sätōri [OTL South Georgia island] as a part of Finland if its okay.) -Kogasa 10:03, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

The only rule about this is that after 1945, there can only be 3 colonies, and those can't be large.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:20, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

No I meant that if it's okay to let a colony declare independent now, even if they are still small, that's what I meant. I also wonder if a former colony (who had declared independence) could be able to create a colony, or no. -Kogasa 20:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Well, i assume that you should jst make your colonies grow a bit more, then wait some years to ddeclare pne of them independent.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:24, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization Question
So, if on the Industrialization page, only Prussia is listed under label 2, should I assume that my colonies have not yet reached level 1? Also, do I need to state that my colonies enter into industrialization, or is it simply implied over time? JonAllenMichael 15:29, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

The colonies are kind of implied over time. And yes your colonies are only in Stage 1. Scandinator (talk) 00:51, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ok cool, I figured this was the case. JonAllenMichael 04:04, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues/ TL
I have some concerns about the map: first of all, if Jerusalem is owned by Naples isn;t it supposed to change color to the one of Naples'? Second of all, what are those bright pink territories in the Andes and Arabia?

Also, I propose we make a TL out of the map game. That wat, we could retell the story in history mode, and it will keep the game from going defunct.

RandomWriterGuy 01:02, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

...Pink is the unfortunate colour of Sweden's puppets... Scandinator (talk) 01:36, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam and Pahang
Look at what I actually posted! I said Vietnam got the part of Pahang which was part of OTL Thailand, not the entire mainland! I repeatedly stated this fact! All Thailand controls is a small sliver of land on the north-east part of the mainland Pahang about the size of Hanover (prior to Swedish vassalization). Why can't people read my posts and then look at the algorithm to see that taking all of that is more territory than we could have taken from the war?LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:46, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Treaty of Sevostopol
This treat wil end the Russo-Turkish war of 1812. The winning coalition states are free to add any additional things. Taking territory from Turan would be plain useless. the territory isnt that big anyways. It is signed in the Newly founded City of Sevostopol in Crimea.

Peace Conditions

 * 1) The Great Turkish Alliance will scede its easternmost outlet ot the Mediterranian sea to the United Principalities.
 * 2) Turan will relinquish any claim it has to the island of Greenland to Sweden.
 * 3) Any ships flying the flag of the GTA will not be allowed in the Black sea for 20 years.
 * 4) The Crimean People's army will be disbanded, and the leaders will be deported to Turan, and never allowed to enter any domain of the Russian Emperor.
 * 5) The GTA will abolish and make ilegal the Trade, sale and ownership of Slaves.
 * 6) To maintain order in the ICR, Russian military officials will remain in the region to make sure rebels dont act up.
 * 7) The GTA will cease to claim Constantinople as its capital.
 * 8) Any more conditions?
 * 9) Any violation of this treaty will be a direct decleration of war against the nations of Sweden, France, Naples, and Russia.

Signatories
Alexander I, Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias, France, High Tsar of Poland-Lithuania and Tsar of Burgundy-Lx (leave me a message) 02:10, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Co-signed by the French Viceroy Constantine Romanov and the French Prime minister (Talleyard??? if not insert name herre):

Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord, Prime Minister of the French Empire and Chancellor of France.

Joachim Murat, Gran Maester of the Order of Saint Robert III and Captain Regent of France.

Alexandre Pétion (Alexander I), President of the Republic of Haiti and Emperor of Haiti.

Henri Cristophe (Henry I), King of Haiti and Emperor of Haiti. --Galaguerra1 03:30, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden: Wilhelm the First; Emperor of the Swedes, Norweigians, Vandals, Goths, Flems and Dutch; Overlord and protector of the Saami; High Shogun of Finland; Lord Protector and Grand Duke of the Baltic Alliance; Sultan of Arabia; Sun Lord of Fjordlaand and Supreme ruler of all the Swedish Colonies. Scandinator (talk) 05:13, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Naples: Vincentio Paradiso, Chancellor of Naples and Overseer of Lombardy, Tuscany, and the Neapolitan Empire

Turan:

By the name of the Great, Might Shah of Persia- RandomWriterGuy 02:13, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I would like take care of the "protection" that the russian monarchy will have over the ICR. So, if it's possible, change the 6 clause to "Charles-Victoire-Emmanuel Leclerc, High Admiral of the French Armada will become Lord Protector and Supervisor of the Incan-Colombian Republic to keep the order and asure the fulfilment of the

treaty".

We also need another clause: "The territory sold by Turan to the ICR will be given back to Turan or will become an independent state".

I would also like a clause that demands the turkish sultan to recognise Ahmet of Mecca as the true Caliph of Islam. --Galaguerra1 03:30, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Since Naples actually attacked the ICR, they would probably be the ones to occupy it (especially since Deansims wants me to control his nation while he's gone for the next week, and I want an IC reason to do so). LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:41, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

I invaded the ICR two turns before you did. I have asked many times the ICR to join the French Parliament in the past centuries, and a french officer would be a direct representative of the Emperor of Russia himself. I don't want to control the nation, so you can do during Deansims' absence though I've occupied it (I just posted the past turn). Anyway the ICR will be still independent, just under russian-french protection.--Galaguerra1 03:48, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Can you control it then? Because I want an IC excuse to do so. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:21, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

An occupation is excuse enough. Anyway, I used to have a formen incan colony,France is a democratic government and, as occupied country, the ICR will be treated with respect and the occupation will be only formal. You can control the ICR though it isn't part of Naples, but, plausibly, I'm in charge of the occupation. --Galaguerra1 16:53, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Expansion
I am having a problem with expanding a colony. Russia, Sweden, Vietnam, and China all know how to do it. How do I do it? How do I expand my territory in an overseas land? Someone tell me, I'm confused! RandomWriterGuy 03:32, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

For areas that are black on the world map:

For areas that are gray:

The numbers are the amount of square kilometers you can expand. Check the industrialization section for any bonuses. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:43, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Naples

 * Location: 1


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Social/Moral): 6


 * Expansion: -1


 * Military Update: 5


 * Naples(L)/Lombardy(MV)/Tuscany(MV)/Israel(MV):10


 * Chance:3


 * 2869 edits
 * 2869 edits


 * 3*1*6=18
 * 3*1*6=18


 * 2869/18*pi=500.73
 * 2869/18*pi=500.73


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: ??


 * Puppets: -1


 * Total:34+Stability

Pahang

 * Location: 5
 * Elevation: 2


 * Motive(Life or Death): 10


 * Expansion:-0


 * Military update: 0


 * Pahang(L): 4


 * Chance:8


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability:0.1^1.25/1.25^0.1*2.5*7=0.96, round up to 1


 * Puppets:-0


 * Total:32*1.5=48

Result
Unless Naples has a negative stability or a bunch of people help Pahang for whatever reason, easy Neapolitan victory

Discussion
Change of plans, have to take advantage of the civil disarray. This should be easy, as their government fell a year ago so the government ruled is only 1, giving them a low low stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:35, February 21, 2012 (UTC)