Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Is the area directly above Venice unclaimed -Chicagoan 17:01, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

It's the "Small States"--you have to conquer it. Cosman246 15:25, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

2050
Sorry, but no future history, so it cannot end in 2050 PitaKang 19:43, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

But couldn't it be present day history by the time we finish. It will be at least 2011. even though it is currently 2010.Chicagoan 20:01, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

2050 is unrealistic. It must be moved to either "present," "2011," or "2012." Lordganon 20:04, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Joining
I'd be interested in helping get this off the ground by providing a better map and stuff. Is this game active at all? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 01:43, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

No, it kind of died before it got off the ground. However, might I suggest you join the States of America Map Game or the Travel (Map Game)? BoredMatt 01:54, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Not really what I was looking for, no offence, but thanks for the offer. This is a formal adoption request. If the author doesn't come back or respond within a week I'll create something similar. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 02:12, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Start now
Let's start now we have enough players and everything PitaKang 05:22, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

If there's enough interest, I'll fix up the map. I'm interested unifying a few Mon States for my country. Is that allowed? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:29, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. No offense to the creator, but this map sucks. It would be very appreciated if you get a better map. PitaKang 05:32, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hopefully it will attract more people that way lol. Does anyone know where an existing map might exist from that time period? —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 07:28, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

The map is complete, the creator is long gone, and we have plenty of players. No reason not to start now. I'll have the 21st as the official start date, which will give more people a chance to join. If I don't get any replies I'll start posting on talk pages. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 07:30, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Just to put it out there, if anyone wants a nation not on the list, you can sign up for it, as long as it existed in 1420. Many Asian and African states were omitted on Cosman's sign-up list, so check the eastern hemisphere map for your desired nation. No micronations or microstates, though, although city states are allowed provided they expand during the game. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:05, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

May we begin? BoredMatt 01:36, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead; we're going on UTC time. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 04:08, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't have to do with starting time, but we need more nations in Europe. Otherwise some European nation will take over all of Europe because there is no one to oppose them. I suggest each user taking a European nation and not just Eastern ones Roguejedi 04:32, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to keep this game from turning into an imperial Europe game. This game purposely starts at 1420, when Europe and the rest of the world were about the same level of advancement. I don't see a reason why Europe should get any special privileges, just because it happened to dominate OTL between about the 1400s to the 1930s, and most people seem to treat it like the centre of the world. East Asia is slightly larger, it was just as advanced as Europe in 1420, and it only has two nations in game, and no one's complaining. Basically this timeline is unique in that it gives a chance for all nations to become superpowers, rather than only "Eastern" or "Western" nations. However, you bring up a valid point, in that with so few nations, there is nothing stopping the world from collapsing into a just a few superpowers. In order to keep this from happening, I'm going to say simply‚ don't be too big for too long. Everyone has been forewarned. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:21, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yes but the people in Europe will take it over and because it was the center of the world at that time, will declare themselves unstoppable. There is no way to correctly "manage" this game, because some people will be just as unrealistic as they want. Europe was the center of the world for a reason, and, for a long tme, Eastern powers were more advanced than the westerners. Europe had the money, the people, and accepted technology when they got it, unlike Eastern powers. It seems that this map game is so fucused on the Middle East and Asia that Europe has been excluded. Roguejedi 15:10, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Then how is it that there are the same number of nations (5 1/2) in Europe as there are in all of Asia? You can't say it's focused on The Middle East. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 15:28, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

You're right, I thought the Kalmar union was one country. Anyway, Each user should have two nations (one has to be a small one) because, as in all map games, many of the people will quit after a month or so. Then only four or five nations are being played and the world just becomes a bunch of superpowers, making the map game really boring. Then people start going to the moon and building things there and nuking the entire earth and sending spaceships to other planets and on and on and on. Roguejedi 16:28, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

My idea is you can have unlimited smaller spin-off states starting at a given date, like maybe 1650. Like how Mongolia came off China off Kyrgyzstan off the Soviet Union. But they have to come off your major state, not random. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 20:54, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Who would want to create a spin-off state. Many people will just keep their country the way it is, not weaken it by creating a spin-off state. Roguejedi 15:53, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Then why would they want two nations? If they wanted England as a first nation and France as a second, then it's as easy as invading France and splitting it off again. Also, eventually everyone's going to have to give up most of their colonies in the XX century which would create a ton of spinoff nations. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 17:45, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

They will refuse too. Give me one good expample from a map game on this site where a nation has freed moer than one or two of its colonies. In other map games, having more than one nation usually works well. Roguejedi 20:02, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'd support it if it retained plausibility (which it would). Anything's better than having the world degenerate into a mess of 10 or 11 superpowers. BoredMatt 21:16, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Modeling after the real world, I am going to allow people to hate on/cut relations with/pressure people who make gigantic superpowers. As a civil person, I'm going to decolonize a lot. And every one else should too. But lol, it doesn't even matter until after WWII. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:10, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

The question is, will they? And if they do, they are going to find a way to reclaim teh countries that they make or make them puppet states. We still need more nations in Europe, and I am vey worried by the KU, because it gets three turns a year and will conquer everything. Roguejedi 00:19, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

If you care that bad, I'll formally give you the right to annoy the heck out of people who expand too quickly. The KU really is within the rules, though. But it is in your best interest to ally with nearby Venice and other powers. Also if you want, as your OTL colony, Hanthawaddy can offer an alliance in the future. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 00:30, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but I'll join as Japan. Cosman246`

Expansion
Hey. Expansion is out of control. A more accurate figure to observe would be invading 1/30 of your country's size per year, not like 1/5. I've had to restrain a couple of invasions as you can see on the map. Again, the more you spread out your invasions, the better it will be for you in the future. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 16:32, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

This is what happens with most map games. I (England) have only invaded Scotland and s in the proccess of invading Ireland because of the wish to unite the British isles. The invasion of Brittany is going to be in a while because I am worried by the KU's rapid expansion. I think in a little while you should declare a period (10 or so) turns of peace and no expansion so countries can work on their economy and interior Roguejedi 16:49, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

That's an idea, but it would make the timeline look weird. I'm just going to say that in the future, "natural" events will benefit people who spend less turns on expansion and more on their economy and diplomacy. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:53, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

The people with more colonies would have more of a chance to be attacked by the natives in the area. If you have a lot of colonies, how about you have a greatly increased chance to have revolutions and native attacks, decmating the colony. Roguejedi 15:39, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

That's a good idea, but I'm going to leave it in a cloud of mystery for now. —Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 16:03, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

UTC


Find your region and time zone, then scroll to the bottom. The time at the bottom (off by exactly 12 hr) is when you can start making edits. So if I live in Sydney, Australia, I can make edits at 22:00-12:00=10:00, which is 10:00 AM. Kay? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:26, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Hello
Hi! I don't know if you can remember me from ConWorlds, but when I got on lately, the first thing I saw was you and superwarmonkey's conversation. I would like to enter this game as the Austrailian Aboriginals, talk to ya later. For the trees! - (Page-Land - Talk) 00:50, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Dai Viet/Vietnam
I'm planning on renaming Dai Viet Vietnam after I finish conquering what was the Khmer Empire. Also I'm planning on settling the island of Sumatra, as my empire (including former Khmer lands) stretches all the way to the Kra peninsula. This would mean that Sumatra does not fit either definitions of a colony (as it is seperated by only a thin strait). So does this mean am I allowed to go ahead with settling Sumatra?

Yank 21:41, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Most of Sumatra is part of either Aceh, Malacca, or some other sultanate. It's been pretty well settled by now. BoredMatt 21:50, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

That should be okay, if the strait to which you are referring is the Strait of Malacca. but try not to post too many "Dai Viet pwns xxx with firearms." I left a message on your talk page though, saying we need to Southeast Asia. To exactly what extent do you propose your country to expand? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 22:54, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I've conquered both the Champa nation and the divided remnants of the Khmer Empire (which I had die around the same time as in OTL due to it not even being mentioned in the states list). This is the extent of my plans for expansion. In terms of OTL nations I conquered Vietnam, Cambodia plus parts of Laos, Thailand, Burma and Malaysia. To make it fair I'm going to spend a few turns "digesting" my conquests.

Yank 02:59, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for Southeast Asia. I have lots of expansion into Tibet, but of course I need to have a reasonable distance around my capital at Pegu. Kay? <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 04:43, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I would like a physical land connection with my territory in the Kra peninsula. I would like most of the former Khmer territory, as I was the one to actually fight the former Khmers for it.

--Yank 05:09, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

The former Khmer territory is roughly correspondent to present-day Cambodia. OTL present-day Thailand is under the control of Ayutthaya (Siam), Lanna (Chiangmai) and Sukhothai. The Khmer Empire lost much of its area to Ayutthaya. I'll give you a land route as long as I can have Krungthep. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 05:21, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

As what? A Hong Kong-esque enclave? If so, then my empire land connection has to be wider to prevent the enclave from severing it.

Yank 22:52, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bangkok is sort of inland, but it would make your land connection kind of small. I thought of an idea. We could create a temporary free-travel state co-ruled by our rulers, similar to Andorra. Let's call it the Kingdom of Singburi, co-vassal of our countries. It would take the role of a buffer state and no-man's land, and as long as we can avoid war it should maintain intact. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 23:18, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I accept the proposal for the Kingdom of Singburi. I'd even be open to it becoming another player nation.

96.63.34.186 03:54, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

My fleet is still in Mamluk territory. I could have Vietnamese traders discover the canal and help the English and the Mamuks. The thing is should I?

--96.63.34.186 03:48, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Cool. I'd rather not grant Singburi idependence, becayse if it turns against us, we're both screwed. I guess we could assist the British so the British don't have a monopoly. I need to recover from the war first, then claim my Sri Lanka colony. After that I'll send my fleets west. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:47, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

So when are you going to update the map? You still haven't included either the Kra peninsula or Sumatra. And I wouldn't worry about Singburri. We'd make it perfectly clear that if they rebel, they're the ones who are screwed.

96.63.34.186 18:06, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

Singburi couldn't be nominally independent because it is regulated by both our countries. In maybe 10 years I will go forth and take Bangkok and Siam. Whenever you want, be it before 10 years or after, you can additionally claim Siam. We'll work out the partition, and create the Kingdom of Singburi to avoid war. I need to take a break from expansion first though. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:57, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

I have Ayuthaya fragmented. No one should be able to take the great kingdom over completely in one turn. Disputes should eventually create Singburi, but once I get ahold of Krungthep. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:54, February 15, 2011 (UTC)

A question
Would Genoa taking control of Corsica as a territory count as a colony? I mean territory like Genoa getting all tax money, and ensuring it's protection. Kind of like OTL Puerto Rico to the USA. Grazie per l'aiuto, Cloudslayer 06:26, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

No, it doesn't count as a colony. Well it kinda is but it's close enough not to be subject to the rules of this game. You could probably get away with as far as Crete or Gibraltar. By colony I mean no cultural connections if that makes sense. Like if you went as far as Cappadocia. <small style="color:#AAAA00">—Detectivekenny; (info, talk) Preceding text certified by R. Xun as of 06:57, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Am I still allowed to join in, or is it to late? -Sunkist- 17:35, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's never too late. By all means, pick a country, as long as it existed in 1435. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:39, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Prehaps the Old Swiss Confederacy? -Sunkist- 17:50, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Pick one canton of the Confederacy and use your first turn to completely unite the Confederacy. Then you should be good. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:07, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Uri, Schwyz, and Unterwalden were all kinda already in a union for economic and local reason when they signed the Federal Charter of 1291, could I be all three of them? -Sunkist- 18:09, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Use your first turn to insert a common supra-cantonal government and then yes. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:51, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Burgundy
Hello, everyone! My name's Sir Spart Sparklbox (SSS for short), and I'm taking over Burgundy, with Woogers' permission. I new at this, so I still have to get used to some things, but I'll try to do my best. --SSS-(Contact) 01:04, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

From the main page
Ok, I'm getting sick of seeing discussions on the main pages of map games. Thats what the talk page is for. Single annotations pointing out errors are one thing, full blown discussions are another. Oerwinde 20:33, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

1432

 * What Muslims? This is 1432.
 * What do you mean? Islam was started in the 9th century.The Crusades have already happened against Muslims in the 12th century-13th.
 * The Muslims no longer have an organized state? They have several factions. They have no caliphs. They're split between the Ottomans which are already taken, the Mamluks likewise, the Mongols likewise, and parts of South and Southeast Asia and Africa. They're not going to randomly send explorers to America, and if they could you would have to discuss with the other Muslim countries, and you would have to pick a specific country to control…
 * Islam started in the SEVENTH century, not in the Ninth.
 * Oh you're the Mamluks… This is why it's a good idea to include your country name in posts. And log in.
 * Am I allowed to start annexing the Phillipines as Dai Viet?
 * No. Pick a small area to start with, and you can colonize as early as 1434. You can't expand your colony past 150 sq mi until 1500.
 * As My post above said, it's just an outpost. Like what Japan is doing in Kamkatchka (though I fail to understand why Japan is more interested in Kamkatchka than the nearby islands of Hokaido or Sakhain). 
 * My colony is in India....'

The Ottoman Empire summon's a large army of over 100,000 to ivade and wipe out the Timurid's. The invasion is successful, with the Ottoman's taking over Baghdad, and expanding their borders all the way to Afghanistan.
 * @Japan I think he meant Joseon. Also follow the UTC guidelines and don't post until UTC 0:00. It's a measure to keep the game from going out of control and burning out. Also you're facing the Ainus, so it can't take one turn. @DaiViet Well by the word annex I assumed you meant administer from your capital city as a colony. Again, 1434, 150 mi kthx.
 * That's probably the most implausible thing I've heard in this map game. The Timurids are currently in their glory.
 * Yes You would have to: 1: Completely wipe out both the Golden Horde and the Mamluk Sultanate, and 2: Get your army of 100,000 to go through the entire Arabian Desert and, 3: the Timurids are in their glory, so you would have to defeat 3 major powers.
 * Agreed. Makes no sense, and would take about 20 years at least.

1435

 * About the map, England invanded Ireland and Wales, so put it on the map.
 * Any player can edit the map at any time. I just do it for everyone's convenience.
 * As you know, my paint program blends the colors, making maps look really bad.
 * That's strange. Usually that only happens in .jpg files. If not, try downloading the Gimp here.
 * I'm sorry, but im not going to download random things onto the computer. Thanks for updating the map

1439

 * Korea invented that in the 1200s!!
 * China makes claims of having invented it earlier. Probably the most common Chinese-Korean argument which I'm not going to get into.


 * I'm tired of this developments. They were all done hundreds of years after what you're writing. STOP THE IMPLAUSIBILITY.
 * I let it slide because the pharaohs had been working on it for thousands of years. So as long as he had permission from the Mamluks, it should be okay. China and Korea both have movable types already by OTL. But rest assured I have a plan for dealing with implausibility, which will be effective next turn.
 * Sorry, If you want me to I could extend the time its going to take to build the canal. How about 20-25 years?
 * Please do that, but I was more reffering by Japan who is developing a bunch of things either two hundred years after or four hundred before. Whoever has Japan has to study more about scientific development history.
 * Sorry, I was thinking about a Gutenburg press. Anyway, further physical discoveries are made. Korea, I'm sorry

1441

 * Whoah those are nowhere near each other. Like 2,000 miles apart. Not to mention the cultural differences between the Hindu Tenjikuminato and Muslim Pakistan. They would not be happy with Shintō control. Hindus might adapt but Muslims would be bitter.
 * I know--but trade has currency. The Indus River Valley port hasn't yet spread Shinto culture--this rule is informal. Where economics change, culture adjusts.


 * But the relations already exist with Castile, don't they?
 * It's more like a "re-establishing" of relations, but in good terms. I've just seceded from it, so I want to be sure I can have an ally as important as Castille.

1446

 * Chi Xiōngshǒu translates to Crimson Assassin in Chinese. I had to do that.
 * I think xiongshou makes sense but I don't think chi is a legit surname. You mean jī?
 * I think that Chi Xiōngshǒu refers to a group of Chinese assassins/spies, rather than an individual. So basically a medieval CIA or KGB.
 * Triads lol.


 * Let me remind you that Vietnam has owned the entire island of Sumatra since 1441.
 * I can't count it as normal expansion, it would have to be a colony on the following grounds: 1) incontiguity, because you don't own any Malay areas, 2) cultural, there are very few if any cultural similarities which implies that Vietnam views its culture as in a sense "better" than that of Sumatra, 3) reason for conquering, the only reasons are strategic and or economic, rather than normal political, cultural, or defence reasons, 4) politics, the island is not ruled by the same laws as the rest of the empire. Therefore it is a colony which means you are entitled to a small settlement until 1500. It would change if you conquered the area in between.
 * Hold on. Did you not read what I wrote in 1441? I conquered the entire freaking island! I didn't just set up a tiny outpost. How many times to I have to repeat it before it sticks? I only gave laws permitting Islam so that there wouldn't be an uprising. And I don't think Sumatra qualifies for either of the distance requirements to be a colony.

1447

 * Hey could you make a map with Joseon's expansion into Russia in it?
 * 1000th edit on pages! Sorry just had to do it :)
 * You no have Paint?
 * No I do, but it's been going crappy on me today. 
 * I wouldn't know what expansion you want. I could do it for you but it would be a lot better if you do it yourself. I could provide a blank map if you want.
 * Actually, I'm on a different computer right now, I'm going to try it.
 * Please observe the conventions that say we do a map once every five years. I have ability to do one every day, but it would detract from my school work. Also, please use naming conventions… When you said map I thought you wanted a small map of only Korea. I will add your Russian territory on the next map which will come at 7:00 PM EST on 18 Feb, 2011.


 * Càm ơn anh for the ethnocentrism… The Sumatrans actually had a pretty advanced states… Also I will say again, you cannot have Sumatra. You can have your colony, and you may begin expanding in 1500. No arguments until you conquer the peninsular Malays.

Moderators

 * I'm not sure that Cosman, even though he's the creator, should be a mod. He's been showing severe implausibility as his nation, Japan, and I think that even though he's the creator, he should only be an assisstant until we can determind that he is a plausible, rational person. Also, then what can the assisstant moderator do? PitaKang 22:10, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. It's a difficult question, because from a legal perspective, we accepted him as crewtor by signing up. However, let's just ask him to stop I guess. Assistant moderators do anything except edit rules, roll back edits. They can suggest mod actions but have to be approved. They can edit maps on a regular basis (normal people can only edit their own country), add members, etc. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 15:37, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking, would it be useful to have a mod page for a game? There the mods can decide on certain issues without clogging up the talk page or the main page.Roguejedi 23:27, February 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey DK, I think Cosman should not be a mod for these reasons:


 * 1) Displays severe implausibility on map games, including this one


 * 1) He's only been here since June, but has only made 56 edits


 * 1) Has no active TLs, only plays Map Games


 * 1) Seems to not know some basics on History and Science
 * 2) Is not active very much

Thanks! Here are my reasons. Please respond ASAP. PitaKang 01:29, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Fedelede 01:30, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I agree Roguejedi 18:55, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Joining
Is is ok to join after the game has already started? If I can't play another state, then could I play as the Barbarians (to attack and destroy peaceful civilizations)???

68.93.193.252 01:07, February 21, 2011 (UTC)