Talk:Zaire (1983: Doomsday)

Ok this makes absolutely no sense. This article has absolutely nothing in it, and yet its canon! Can someone please adopt this article? --Yankovic270 18:54, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Any article that existed before the new proposal procedure was adopted was grandfathered in as canon, unless it was obviously contradictory. What this article should cover is only found currently on the : "The twin cities of Kinshasa and Brazzaville in former Zaire form a “Self – Defense Council” to at least try to re-establish control over a potentially hospitable region. The second peacekeeping mission is realized." However because it is an empty stub it will immediately become a proposal when someone adds to it. Mitro 20:43, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * So you can't add to it till you adopt it, and you can't adopt it till someone adds to it? GunsnadGlory 19:35, December 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, first off notice that I said the above over two years ago. A lot has changed. Read the, they explain the adoption policy. In fact, I do not believe this article has a caretaker, so you could probably easily take charge of it. Mitro 19:59, December 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't notice that. I thought it said 2011. I would indeed like to, as I am developing a similar article in the north.GunsnadGlory 19:35, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if I may make a suggestion, the info concerning Self–Defense Council of Kinshasa and Brazzaville should be split off to form its own article, while the article itself should be rewritten to reflect the break up of the nation followng Doomsday and the successor states to arise from it (ex. Hungary (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 19:39, December 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * That would indeed make sense. GunsnadGlory 15:13, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Renaming
I can't rename it, for some reason. Could anyone help?98.14.126.83 13:44, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sign up first. Only registered users can rename pages in wikias. Gettysburg flag.gif Godfrey Raphael 14:56, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoa, slow down their Tex. Why do you want to rename this article in the first place? Mitro 00:53, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, im sorry, I forgot to log on- that explains why i can't rename it. I was trying to follow your advice:
 * Well if I may make a suggestion, the info concerning Self–Defense Council of Kinshasa and Brazzaville should be split off to form its own article, while the article itself should be rewritten to reflect the break up of the nation followng Doomsday and the successor states to arise from it (ex. Hungary (1983: Doomsday).
 * GunsnadGlory 17:26, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

The article itself states that the Council is known internationally as Zaire. Hence the name of the article. This, like anything else, should be discussed before it is done. I've put the article name back, at least for now. Lordganon 18:00, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Gus if you actually read my advice you would notice that I never said to rename this article. I said that the info on the council should be "split off" which generally means "make a new article", not rename an existing article. No offense Gus, but this is the second time you misread something I wrote, please be more careful. Mitro 18:23, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I originally was going to do that, but I ran into a problem- what would I name the new article? GunsnadGlory 19:18, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

"Congo."

Taking care, or course, to note and remember that there is a nation called "Kongo" south of Zaire. A resurrection of the old Kongo Kingdom.

Lordganon 19:24, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

...I feel stupid for not thinking of that... shouldn't there be a proposal sign on this article? GunsnadGlory 19:37, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

There is no need at all for one. Lordganon 19:38, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

dose not make sceance to me
Back in 82 Brazzaville was ruled by the Marxist Congolese party of labor and Kinshasa was ruled by an anticommunist dictator. I doubt that they would easily agree to form a Self Defense Council

~anon

And if you'd have bothered to read it, you'd have seen that it was in 2007 that that occurred, not the 1980s, and that both of those governments you quote collapsed within a short time after Doomsday atl. Lordganon 03:56, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Communist Congo
In order for Kinshasa and Brazzaville to form an alliance, the Congolese Party of Labor would have to have lost control of Brazzaville. Maybe the People’s Republic of the Congo still exists north of Brazzavile. The new capital of the People’s Republic of the Congo could be Owando. The Owando government may be a member of CSTO. ~anon

Please register! Would be nice to have a name for attaching to these posts.

CSTO, probably not.

Find it unlikely that they would have survived. The people up there would be hungry, too, and after the - assumed - coup, the remnants of the previous government likely wouldn't be able to make it much of anywheres through the jungle.

Lordganon 01:07, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

The coup is practically certain, in fact. Power grabs would occur all over the country as Mobutu stopped being able to pay and feed soldiers. Maybe even earlier, in anticipation. GunsnadGlory 15:13, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Kisangani in 1983 Doomsday
In the OTL Kisangani is one of Zaires most prosperous cities. However, I believe it would not be in such great shape in 1983 Doomsday. Since it is a wealthy city and is also located between Isiro and Kivu, Kisangani would probably be invaded by one of those warlord states someday. ~anon

This city would in all likelihood cease to exist within a year. It's a very large city, in the middle of the jungle. Death will haunt it, heavily. Lordganon 06:53, January 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I smell an interesting article... Mitro 15:11, January 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * That need not be true (not about the article, about Kisangani). Although major fighting would occur, and disease would (probably) be rife, Mobutu's military was stationed here. One group will have gotten power, and the rest would follow. That is quite probable.
 * One interesting thing, though, is that the rest of Africa (most of it, anyway) has retained some semblance of ... unity? order? I'm not quite sure what the word is, but Zaire is a complete mess. The country is ruled by small groups of mini dicatators ruling city-states, or town states. The closest thing to a full country is Katanga, in the South, but that was a seperate part of the country all together, of a diferent class. GunsnadGlory 19:53, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

....Not at all what I meant, Guns. No food = death. Lordganon 08:50, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

That wasn't what I meant precisely... I'm aware of the lack of food, but with a military government, it would be easy to expand somewhat, beyond the jungle, not so far as so that individual commanders can split off, but far enough that farms can be made to service the city... and as for the anon... both Isiro and Kivu are far away, and Isiro, anyway, is not in any shape to take over half the country. I can't speak for Kivu, but having read the article, I doubt that too. Neither of them are canon yet, either, though I'm pretty sure Isiro any way is ready for graduation (hint, hint), though I can't speak for Kivu

And I have to agree with LG, it is a bit annoying not knowing who I am addressing.

GunsnadGlory 15:20, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Jungles are worthless for farming. All that manages is to burn out what little food could be found out there, making it faster. Lordganon 10:21, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I have read on the internet that Lubunga, one of the communes of Kisangani, supplies Kisangani with most of its agricultural crops. The people of Kisangani also grow crops on the island of Mbiye. Plus the Wagenia of Kisangani, are known to catch plenty of fish on the nearby Congo River.Goldwind1 16:26, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know that, but anyway, LG, I said beyond the forest. I said nothing about burning anything. In addition, of course, is what Gold said 98.14.126.83 22:15, January 15, 2012 (UTC) (Guns- I forgot to login)

Glad he finally registered - now, if he could keep logged in, lol.

Farming in the region is only possible on such a scale with modern techniques - which without question do not work within months. They then need to do slash/burn agriculture, which does not work. And fishing would never be enough.

The forest surrounds the city, Guns.

Lordganon 10:07, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, as I said. Expand BEYOND the jungle. GunsnadGlory 19:21, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Guns, they cannot do so. You're talking about a crazy level of distance. Lordganon 04:55, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Collapse of Zaire
I'm really confused here about when Zaire (the country, not the council) collapsed... I don't think there are any real figures, though Katanga hints towards 1984-1986... GunsnadGlory 15:55, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Within the first year is when almost all governments in Africa that collapsed did so - and the only one that did so afterwards was hit by an Israeli nuke in 1987. Bet on 1984. Lordganon 10:19, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Also, I asked this question before, but why does North and South Africa (the region, not the country) 'survive' in the main part, but central Africa just collapses? Is there any reason, or is that just editors choices...? GunsnadGlory 23:56, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Wait. Katanga, which is canon, states 1986.

Common sense states 1984.

HELP! GunsnadGlory 01:53, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

....You're not looking at what it says, Guns. Collapsing takes years. The original events would take place in 1984, but the collapse still ongoing in 1986 - if you look at Katanga, what it says is collapsing, not collapsed.

....You may want to have a good, hard, look at the maps again. Almost all African nations collapsed or had a entire change of government. North, South, Center.... everywhere. Have a look at the map on this page.

Lordganon 09:55, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Oops, didn't notice the collapsing vs collapsed.

Those states are still *more* intact than Zaire... GunsnadGlory 19:20, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

By and large, not really - some are better off, most are about the same. Have a look at some of the stuff about South Africa, for instance. The DRC is how it is because of all of its problems pre-DD. Tons of minorities, tons of rebels, bad histories.... you name it, they have it. Makes a ton of sense that they will be one of the worse off. Lordganon 06:18, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Bunia
Bunia is a city in Zairie that I feel may be interesting to explore what happens to it in 1983 doomsday. In the Otl, Bunia is known for its gold mines, fertile soil, and the Ituri conflict. In the 1983 doomsday timeline, Bunia would probably be a prize sought after by Isiro and the Republic of Uganda rump state. ~anon

Uganda is far to weak for such a thing. Isiro too.

That would be an exaggeration of the situation there. 2012 Bunia and 1983 Bunia are not the same - the situation you describe would not have been the case. As with most large cities in the jungle, or near to it, its people would die off.

Lordganon 09:58, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

And once again, anon, Isiro is NOWHERE close to as powerful as even Uganda or Kivu. Isiro cannot sustain a long war, because its industry is virtually non-existent. It has no wish to enter a war against a stable state like Uganda, EVEN if it was powerful enough. Fed and I are considering a short war between Kivu and Isiro, but Isiro's forces in there are mainly for blitz attacks. They can't sustain a war against even a very minor war against another tiny state like Kivu. In fact, its a given Isiro would lose that war. WHY would Isiro risk a war against a much stronger enemy? GunsnadGlory 19:18, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Now that I have given the matter some thought, I now see that even though the Republic of Uganda rump state is a shell of its former self, it is probably much stronger than Isiro. However, there is a faint chance that Bunia heard stories about Isiro’s imperial expansion and decided to offer Uganda a yearly tribute of gold in exchange for protection from the potential invasion from Isiro.Goldwind1 02:50, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

The mining areas are not actually at the city, but instead about 20 miles north - not a game-killer, but not helping it, either.

Isiro, imo, is by far the weakest of the post-Congo states. I expect that both of the larger Ugandan remnants could beat it up, to say nothing of the larger states in the region.

The mines, most likely, would have ended up abandoned - gold is not worth much of anything when there's no demand, after all.

Lordganon 07:24, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Isiro may not be the worst of - there will be hundreds of tiny villages that are ' self- suffieicnt...

In addition, Isiro is not all that weak - it doesn't have, factories, and so can't launch a sustained war... but it can inflict large amounts of short term damage. It would certainly take less causalties than Uganda, but would lose nevertheless.

Of course, this is all assuming that Isiro ever actually gets canonized... (hint, hint) GunsnadGlory 17:25, January 17, 2012 (UTC)