Talk:Holy Roman Empire (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

Aragon
While Aragon is in dynastic union with Brandenburg, it is not part of the HRE. Like how in real life Hungary was in dynastic union with Austria but wasn't part. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Will fix.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:16, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Right then. Makes sense.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:18, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Lack of a Capital
So I came up with a crazy idea tonight. Since the Holy Roman Empire has no capital (until we reach Rome), why not make one in a centralized location? Who's with me?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:32, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I propose somwhere in the Rhineland or Alsace-Lorraine.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:38, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking southern Wurttemburg. Nice and central to almost everything. I sort of have a naming scheme picked out.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:41, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I am in agreement with MP at least until we reach Rome, what is the name? These are not the droids you are looking for. 03:17, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

All right, as Pita says, let's blow up that bridge when we get there. In the meantime, let's discuss improving our nations and then start planning our battle plan. I have the first instances of our battle strategy mostly planned out on MP's talk page under the section "Das Plan" so feel free to check it out.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:21, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Posting
As all of us member state players know, the plan is afoot. So let's discuss it here, as our nations. Also, I have my post here, because I shant be up 9:00 EDT. If someone could kindly post for me, it would be highly appreciated. In other news, it says "first post" because I was about to post. Anyways, whomever posts for me, please remove that if someone else already has posted. (Which is very likely.)
 * Brandenburg (woohoo first post XD) decides to support Austria's claim to the throne, since they are German comrades, but is disappointed that its own house is not on the throne. To ensure continued existence of the HRE, all member states are strongly advised not to leave the Empire. Meanwhile diplomats are sent to Austria to discuss a possible centralization or strengthening of the Empire.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Time to Become Truly "Roman"
Unless anyone objects, I plan to have the current Holy Roman Emperor marry into the line of the Byzantine Emperors, so that the HRE will actually be "roman" in some sense. Trust me, this is legit and I have done my research. If it works, then perhaps we can salvage what remains of the Byzantine Empire.

Please keep this family tree here:

Helena Palaiologina, daughter of Theodore II Palaiologos, who was the brother of Constantine XI Palaiologos, the current Byzantine Emperor. She will marry the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick III the Peaceful.

Does anyone object to the plan?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:45, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Nay!

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:49, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg has spoken! And would the leader of Brandenburg offer a reason to this "nay?"

For the record, since Austria gets to conquer so little in the game, I figure that I won't need as much resources towards Germany, other than to help you guys.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:52, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I meant nay as no objection.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:05, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Accept my apologies, I misunderstood.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:07, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Good Idea. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 03:12, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

The upcoming world war
Hey when you guys planning on unifying? Cause us Muslims are planning a large empire as we go all super-expansionist as a supposed Mahdi appears. Perhaps you can use our Caliphate's European invasion as the necessary immediate cause for you guys unifying? Also don't worry it'll collapse after a decade or so, which then you guys will probably be the dominant world power. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:10, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. We will consider it.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:23, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unification Treaty
Okay, so the Byzantine annexation didn't really go my way. No matter. We are still somewhat Roman now.

More importantly, we have this. All player members need to see this. Let me know if you are here.

The treaty will be made when all are present, or tomorrow.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:41, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

What about by my requests in regards to all the other Bavarias near me. I am sending propaganda, how long till they agree with me annexing them? Also Hungary needs to be watched, I do not trust themThese are not the droids you are looking for. 23:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have not forgotten your wishes to become a united Bavaria.

You could probably do that now, but be careful.

Hungary will be watched with caution.

Even if you cannot annex all of Bavaria straight away, it is one of the provisions of the treaty, so we will support you.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:48, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

MAJOR CRISIS
Okay we have a problem. Venice and the Papal states are going to attack Genoa, our main financial supplier. So here is what we are going to do.
 * 1) Brandenburg holds off the war against the Teutonic Knights.
 * 2) Financial and military aid will be sent to the states in disarray (Saxony and Bohemia) if they also help in the war.
 * 3) We will divide the land after the war accordingly.
 * 4) If we work together, we should get Milan, Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Saxony, Bohemia, maybe Burgundy, Genoa, maybe Switzerland, and the other Italian states, along with England, so we should be fine. If we work together.
 * 5) Who's in? Sign below.
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk), Austria
 * These are not the droids you are looking for. 01:31, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Bavaria
 * Callumthered (talk) 01:35, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Saxony. (I will give whatever help I can, just not too sure how much that will be.)
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Branddenburg
 * Also, how do we (religiously) justify going to war with the Pope? Callumthered (talk)
 * We shall have to accuse him of betraying the beliefs of the Catholic Church. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the Teutonic War is over, but I need someone do me an algorithm. I don't fully understand the new one yet. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:39, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Or we could wait for them to attack first. The Teutonic war is over? Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:40, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 01:42, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Milan.
 * The Swiss Confederacy will provide military support, we are close to Venice and could participate in a invasion of mainland Venice, and for justification, we will claim that the papal states have become corrupted, focusing on politics far more than religion, and we have the right to ownership of Rome, however they(papal states) can stay in OTL Vatican City and maintain a defense force not to exceed 1,000 troops. I Am Walrus (talk) 01:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * We can decide the fate of the fallen after the war. What is important now is that we all work together. Remember, we will all share power after this war and unification (which does not mean we will take turns or anything like that), and the Austrian Emperor cannot rule forever. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:49, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
MP next year I plan on forcefully reunifying all of the remaining Bavarias, can you bring the might of Austria to bear?These are not the droids you are looking for. 01:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

If you help in Italy and the disorderly states, then I will. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:30, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I have already been sending aid since they asked (Saxony and Bohemia).

Swiss annexation of Savoy
I have plans to invade and conquer all of Savoy, with the first assaults beginning in 1457. Is this fine with you guys? I Am Walrus (talk) 14:49, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

ACTUAL UNIFICATION TREATY
Sorry about the obnoxious title, but this has to be obvious.

So let us get started, shall we?

The Basics
Under this treaty, all states will submit to a central authority that will in exchange grant the states a degree of autonomy.

The Emperor
The Emperor, or Kaiser, will be the head of state of the Holy Roman Empire. He will have an annoyingly long title, which I will not write out now.
 * Each state will agree that the Emperor is the highest level of authority in the Empire except for God. This will be changed to be on par with the Pope when/if we conquer him.
 * The Emperor will rule for life, or until he voluntarily steps down.
 * The Emperor will be elected by the Conclave of Kings, who will be the leaders of each state. Entry to the Conclave is hereditary, and each member must vote for someone other than themselves. I'm not sure how doges work, so if someone can explain that, that would be nice. Are they like dukes?
 * The Emperor is also in control of the military. The conclave declares war.

Religion
The official religion of the Empire is any form of Christianity. Other religions are allowed on the condition that they do not threaten the government or the state religion.

State's Rights
Each state has certain rights that are given by God and cannot be taken away by the state.
 * Right to govern internally within reason.
 * Right to maintain a state militia (friekorps, Gendarmes, etc) to help keep the police.
 * Right to choose a capital.
 * Right to pass local laws that do not contradict state law.

Rights of the Federal State
The state can do all of the below.
 * Create and maintain the armed forces for the general defence.
 * Issue a common currency.
 * Levy taxes to provide for the well being of all.
 * Direct foreign policy.

The Laws that Bind us All

 * The states must support the legitamate Emperor, regardless of who that is, unless he goes against the laws respecting the states.
 * The Conclave of Kings elects the next Emperor, nothing else.
 * Each state must pledge to help the Holy Roman Empire and each other in the event of war, calamity, etc.

Other Things (Federal Capital, etc)

 * The capital, until we claim Rome, will be a city built in southern Wirttemburg, named after Charlemagne, the First Holy Roman Empire. (Charlemagn? Need help with the name here)
 * There is one, and only one, Bavaria.
 * The current Emperor is Frederick III Hapsburg of Austria. Upon his death, that title will go to the Conclave of Kings, who will elect the next Emperor from among them.

Signatories
Sign here if you agree to the terms issued. Read carefully and understand what you are signing!
 * His Majesty Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III Hapsburg of Austria . Monster Pumpkin (talk)
 * His Highness the Electorate of Brandenburg, Duke of Berlin, King of the Crown of Aragon and Navarre, and its states, Karl I and Charles II or Brandenburg and Aragon [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.
 * Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan. Bauglir Zero (talk)
 * Cosimo de' Medici, Duke of Florence. Jslate17 (talk)
 * His Imperial Lordship King Andreas Kribt the Fierce, Lord and Protector of all Bavarias These are not the droids you are looking for.
 * His Majesty, the Elector of Saxony. Callumthered (talk) 04:56, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
If you have any doubts, please post them here, and they will be addressed. I know that the issue of Genoa and Savory and such will be brought up, but I will discuss that when someone brings it up.

Also, Aragon is in the Empire?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:21, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Darn it, I wanted to have a dynastic emperor, not an elected one. Also, may we invade each other? If not I want a bill saying that I can annex my hated enemy Pomerania, and that Luxembourg will be made a Brandenburgish vassal upon Brandenburgish revolution against Luxembourg, and that all playing member sates should be added to algorithms for individual states atacking other nations. Doges are basically dukes. Aragon can be a part of the Empire if you want, but soon Brandenburg and Aragon will basically be one. I'd also like assurance that everyone will help me, Brandenburg against Luxembourg. Deal? Only then I sign. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.23:30, September 9, 2012 (UTC) Also, the proposed title for Fred: His Majesty Graced by God, King of Austria, and Kaiser of the Germans, Imperator of the Holy Roman Empire, Representative of the men, Frederick III Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:37, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

i like the idea of a Kaiser but i'm still not sure about remaining in the Empire, maybe as part but my major concerns would be centering ourselves as world powers and in the case of any of the members of the empire discover america the rest of the empire has the same 15 years free travel and conquer deal or no? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:38, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have to have an elected Emperor, or else the other states would be mad, and we can't have that. If your king is wise, powerful, and supports the other kings in politics, then it is likely that yours will be elected.

Austria will help against Luxembourg, because of what is below.

This damn problem is annoying me. So let me reveal the basics of my plan:


 * States can take over other states for the sake of gameplay. These states will still exist in the eyes of the Federal Government, and history will remember them as still existing.
 * States should be taken over through subterfuge, not war.
 * Here is an example: Milan effectivly bribes the Doge of Genoa into supporting Milan indefinitly. Genoa is now under the influence of Milan (basically they are annexed at this point). The Doge of Genoa is still in the Conclave of Kings, and the Empire still has two administrative states, Genoa and Milan.
 * Bascially, Milan controls Genoa in game, but the HRE still counts Genoa as existing and lore-wise Genoa will still exist.

Is that fair?

Burgundy, can you address your concern more clearly? I don't understand.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

what i was trying to say, is if any of us manages to reach america shouldn't all receive some rights over it, after all we are a nation so to say it Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:48, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

We all will get some claim to it, we would be the same nation, after all. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:50, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Can I annex my enemy Wurttemberg?These are not the droids you are looking for. 23:54, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I'm hoping Aragon or one of our allies finds the New World. Regardless, I don't want to discover the new world, I jsut want us to have the most. After all, even if Portugal finds Cuba, we can get all of North America. Also, if I ain't there when the Americas are discovered, someone, pelase please please please post for Brandenburg that Brandenburg sends a fleet to OTL New York to found the colony Neue Berlin. Thank you if you can.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:02, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Time to flex the ole' noggin. I have a plan that will really benifit us. Burgundy is all seperate into two pieces. I think to ensure Burgundy's signing, let's assing it small strips of Liege, Luxembourg, Bar, and Lorraine. Also, can vassals "annex" other states? Cause I want Palatinate out of my way. Damn Palatinate. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:19, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Let me make this point blank: You can control other states if you want, but the empire and history will count them as still existing.

Agreed on the Burgundy proposal.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 00:55, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Most members states will vote against this in the Reichstag. If you force it through there will be a mass revolt. Controlling a horde of small states is against the rules since they=vassals and will screw with algorythms. Scandinator (talk) 06:05, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Doges are elected heads of state. Scandinator (talk) 06:14, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, thats not fair, we can find a solution. What if most non-player nations are not allowed to have an army (but police)?, I mean all their troops would be commanded by the Emperor, that gives the currently Emperor a strong army but still don't give us power over the algorithm. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 00:33, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

What states are electors? all of them?, the bolded ones? or the player nations?. In case we include non-player nations as electors how would we know their vote?.Example: If I have 2 vassals. Could they vote for me? Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 01:38, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

@Scan: Nothing is being forced. Yet.

@Bauglir: The armies are meant to be militias, we are supposed to be one nation after all. Don't worry, it will work out. There is a federal army under the Emperor and the conclave, and the militias are state controlled.

As to the electors, after they sign the treaty, they (the states) all have an equal vote.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:42, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

No one in this era is going to suggest any other official religion than the Roman Catholic Church. It would take the Protestant Reformation for them to accept other forms of Christianity as equal. And even then, it won't happen right away, the Southern Germans will try and fight the anti-Catholics for at least the first several decades at least, and many protestant monarchs will oppose Catholicism. Such a clause that states "all forms of Christianity will be accepted" would actually most likely be introduced after some sort of civil war over the reformation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:29, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

The marriage of Frederick III and Helena. Effectivly ended the holy schism, in their eyes. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 00:40, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Then we should have the Patriarch of Constantinople officially travelling to Rome to swear loyalty to the Pope. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 00:42, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, you were talking about the Eastern Orthodox, I thought this was some pre-emptive attempt to accomodate Protestantism. In that case, it seems rather silly for this to be an issue at all, the only areas with significant populations of Eastern Orthodox followers would be the Greek and other Balkan areas owned by the Venetians.

Having the Orthodox all reunite with the Catholics is unlikely at this time (other than the Orthodox who live in the Venetian parts maybe, but even then it would probably not be easy). It would be more likely for the Holy Roman Emperor to say something like "All states in the Empire shall be totally and eternally followers of the Church of Rome, with the sole exception of the Greek Churches within those formerly Eastern Roman states now pledged to the Republic of Venice, which may retain their Greek Christianity while within their native lands." LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:50, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that would make sense. In OTL the HRE and the Byzantine Empire were close to uniting the churches, but Ottoman attacks and general reluctance made that impossible.

No this is not an attempt to stop Protestantism. The kings cannot see into the future, now can they? :) Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:55, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Diplomacy
Any other nation may use this area for Diplomacy.

Allies

 * England

Trading Partners

 * France
 * Venice (de facto)

Discussion
What about the Holy League (Castillan proposal)? Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 02:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria personally supports the ideaThese are not the droids you are looking for. 02:39, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

What is that again? I never saw it. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 04:52, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you to not declare war on the Papal States and Venice, as Milan is getting into the war against Genoa, so it would help unifying the empire and Milan will become your main financial supplier, and its more related, as a monarchy, to your kingdoms, than Genoa, a republic, is.

Also, the Holy League (in fact League of León) will be a treaty which objective is to defend ourselves from the aggressions, specially the upcoming Muslim caliphate. The excuse to create it is the recent lost of Castille to Granada and to secure peace in Europe (since the Hundred Years War just ended and the unification of the HRE will cause many wars, we need to agree to not cause troubles between ourselves). --Galaguerra.

Now I remember Bauglir told me he was gonna support you against Venice and the Papal States, then I'll also support you, but I want some lands in the Aegean Sea and Greece, or at least the Aegean Sea. --Galaguerra.

...This is interesting. I'm gonna get attacked! So much for diplomacy Monster Pumpkin. You do realize that attacking the POPE and the most powerful trading nation simultaneously will not end well for either side? HRE states will revolt, France and Spain which are heavily religious regions will help (maybe/maybe not since they are player nations), Poland, Hungary, Denmark and France would view this as HRE aggression. European trade would be crippled allowing the Ottomans and Mamluks huge profits as they block trade with no one to stop them. The Renaissance would end as its heartlands are smashed by war. Christianity would crumble and Europe would be pushed back to the stage it was in 100 years ago. Also about Venice joining the HRE, I was considering it, but I'm no longer sure since you are so willing to backstab. Scandinator (talk) 05:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Scan, this was only if you attack Genoa. We know not to attack the Pope, if you looked back at our previous discussions, you would see that. And your actions towards such seemed to indicate that such a thing was no longer part of your goals. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 05:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Genoa is the last rival trade league in Europe after the Hansa were destroyed by Denmark. They also took Kaffa, a Venetian settlement and divert away some of my trade from the Levant. My primary goal right now is to get rid of the Genoan trade league and I don't mind if Milan takes Genoa and I only get the islands and Kaffa. In fact, that would be a good way to put away our past disputes. So Milan, treaty to take out Genoa? Scandinator (talk) 05:58, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Milan and I kinda have a deal on that already. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I also wanted an island in the Aegean Sea. --Galaguerra.

We will see. Right now we have to wait and see how Venice reacts. Probably nothing to worry about (I hope). Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC) {| class="diff diff-contentalign-left"
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Naming Convention
As a kind of wonder, is it possible to rename my nation once its demographics/size etc are different. I posted as the new Grand Duchy of Bavaria as it now contains two separate entities and one of them is a duchy, Just wanted to make sure the name was right.These are not the droids you are looking for. 06:10, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * colspan="2"|
 * class="diff-marker"|
 * class="diff-deletedline"|
 * class="diff-deletedline"|

I don't see why not. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * }

Perfect! It reflects this time period so well. Dukes were controllers of large provinces but by the 15th century the head of a town would sometimes be called a duke. Therefore several duchies tried to distinguish themselves. Austria led the charge as the Archduchy of Austria, followed by the Grand Duchy of Burgundy. Scandinator (talk) 06:29, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg!!!
Right then, I am the horse and I wish to throw off my master! I want to make Luxembourg lose power over Brandenburg! Come Germans, let's get Luxembourg off our case! Any help from y'all other states is appreciated, and I have a few things to talk with Bohemia. Does Bohemia have a player? Anyways, if we can get rid of Luxembourg, I would like some Austria, Bavarian, Saxon, Burgundian, and anyone else aid against the Teutonic Knights by the 1470s or 1480s. Meanwhile, I think we should be friendly with France and not England as France will be more beneficial to us and our plans. We also need some land route to connect the Empire with Aragon, which will get intertwined with the empire through union with Brandenburg. Another thing: I really need some sort of coastline, sea border, etc etc. So I want to know if I can sign a treaty with Pomerania to give me some small patches to land that connect to the sea in exchange for x% of the profits from future gains of the area. To expand, you have to be next to a damn ocean so that you can go places! You can't walk to America!

In other news, I want to know if you folks would be interested in getting a friend in the Indian region. My pick is Vijayanagar. If you all agree, I shall tell Imp that eventually we shall put his nation in control over all of India, Central Asia, and parts of Indochina and Persia? Sound good? It'll take a lot of helping shmelping.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:10, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

A friend in India you say???? Yes Bavaria supports you it will. Algorithm scraw will help. Yoda much thanks is givenThese are not the droids you are looking for. 04:29, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Right then! Since Aragon will, sooner or later, be somewhat a part of the HRE, it seeks HRE help against Navarre and maybe Bearn! Who is with Aragon, and who is with Navarre and/or Bearn? Any and all are welcome to answer to either call!

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:29, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

The irony here is Aragon has a royal marriage with a member of the Luxembourg royal family which rules over Brandenburg. Overthrowing them loses that marriage. Scandinator (talk) 05:36, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Say what now? The KING of the Crown of Aragon is married to the sole heiress of the Brandenburg electorate. (Fred).

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:47, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

So the original Brandenburg Dukes? If yes, then great!Scandinator (talk) 05:49, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.05:54, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Calais
Well, as you know, I want to join the HRE with the tiny state I will create, Calais, but I need to know if it is possible. I also think about the unification treaty above that there should be some clause stating that every state can decide who its ruler will be (as the Empire will be formed on republics, monarchies, aristocracies and ecclesiastical dominions) and there should be a parliament or Reichstag, like in OTL HRE.--Galaguerra

We'll take it! Also, all that is discussed in the treaty. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:05, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Technically, the King of England could also be the Prince of Calais, but to do so, he would have to acknowledge the Holy Roman Emperor above him. Such a thing was somewhat common then, but you don't have to, and find a different prince instead.

Even if you did declare the emperor your lord, England would still stay out of the HRE, sort of like Hungary years later.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:59, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

King Richard III will become Prince of Calais but, as soon as he dies, both England and Calais will separate, as England will be inherited by Edward IV and Calais will pass to Edmund of Rutland. --Galaguerra

Capital Question
Okay, now that we have mostly unified the HRE and Wurttemberg is now a stable area thanks to the Bavarian Annexation, I propose we construct a new city in Wurttemberg(as it is centrally located more or less) to become the Holy Roman Capital. I suggest using the name Imperiumstadt(Imperial City) as it reflects our Holy Roman heritage as well as the Germanic influences present in the region. The area that will become the city will become a sort of city state(modern examples include Berlin, Hamburg, Bremen) and will be under no state authority other than that of the Emperor. I am open to other names or places, but if you do not object(or want to add/remove something) please sign below.

Building a new city from scratch is a shit ton of work. Not only that but no-one will want to move in. Look at OTL examples of recently (last 100 years) built cities. e.g. Canberra in Australia.Scandinator (talk) 14:05, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Bavaria: These are not the droids you are looking for. 12:08, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay well what of Washington D.C, or Kyoto? Both were built as a capital and are both arguably beautiful cities. Last I checked D.C has a population of 5.58 million (7th largest in U.S. and Kyoto has approx. 1,473,746. It can be done. D.C was built 200 hundred years ago and Kyoto is much older than most European cities it can be done and be done right.These are not the droids you are looking for. 17:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking in the right state, but a bit more south.

How about a compromise: Thoughts?
 * Venice will become the capital of the Holy Roman Empire until the new one is constructed.
 * The new capital, theoretically, should be named after Charlemagne, the founder of the HRE.
 * Here is some name ideas: Carolin, Carolingin, Charlemagn, Karolin
 * Reasoning for a New Capital: A new capital would generally be needed, because if one state is selected to have the capital other states would be mad, jealous etc., and I don't want another civil war.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:41, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I am satisfied with moving it further south, that was just a rough drawing. Can we name it Karolin? I rather like that name.These are not the droids you are looking for. 19:44, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

THE CALIPHATE THREAT?!
As we are now fairly unified, I think it is high time that all of Europe with the HRE at the helm, needs to begin a massive military buildup in the event, however unlikly, that they will attack. We need to have some sort of protection internationally. I understand it may be many years before there is a REAL threat, but we must be careful. Any Ideas?These are not the droids you are looking for. 13:05, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Capital Nominations
Well, several people have asked for a HRE capital. I suggest you add your nomination and reasons and we vote.

Venice
Venice is the largest city in the HRE and second largest in Europe. It is also the largest centre of trade in the world. It's location as an archepelago allows for easy defense and it is almost impossible to take. Venice also is a centre of culture and learning and one of the hearts of the renaissance.

Scandinator (talk) 14:01, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Wurttemburg
The new city of Imperiumstadt would be centrall located and easily be defended by the mountains to the south, strong HRE allies to the north and east. It will be constructed for the SPECIFIC use if being the capital so everything the Monarch would need would be there. As it will hopefully be the seat of the Empire, much culture will flow through the region due to its proximity to Milan, Genoa, Bavaria etc.

These are not the droids you are looking for. 14:05, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

As following a compromise between Venice and Wurttemberg, I now nominate the city of Karolin(or whatever we will name it in Wurttemberg.These are not the droids you are looking for. 19:45, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Aachen
Aachen was the historical capital under Charlemagne and later it was place of Maximilian II's coronation. It is a Free Imperial City, not a state's capital (like Venice), I don't know the population at the time, but at the time of Napoleon it was 80.000, I think it is way lower at this time.

Augsburg
Another Free Imperial City, around 70.000 inhabitants, well placed and an ideal center for german culture and policy.

Frankfurt am main
90.000 inhabitants, I guess. Free Imperial City and an important center of trade.
 * Actually, I do rather like the idea of using FrankfurtThese are not the droids you are looking for. 19:28, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nuremberg
Also Free Imperial City and it has been seat for the imperial court.

Lübeck
An improtant Free Imperial City and center of trade as de facto capital of the Hanseatic League.

--Galaguerra1 (talk) 18:44, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Vienna
Vienna is a nice city at the time, and the capital of Austria, which is Number 2 in power (because of the Civil War) and the home of the Emperor. I predict the crown passing to Brandenburg or Bavaria when he dies, but Vienna is a good p;ace, and not far from the center of Europe. It was also the OTL Capital.

Variation
Let's move the capital to the state the Emperor is from. This would require every state making one city majestic in case they get the capital.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:24, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I rather like this idea, that way, all the major areas line Brandenburg, Bavaria, Venice and other areas may have a shot.Andr3w777 (talk) 16:16, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Munchen
The city of Munich is a quenticiental German City, yet with plenty of Italian culture and archetecture, making it unique in the regard that it can host BOTH sections of the Empire equally. It is a beautiful city and Houses the world's most elaborate Cathedral in the worrld and is a major centre of learning.Andr3w777 (talk) 16:16, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Berlin
Berlin is the center of Germans and basically the one palce all Germans can relate to. I understand our Western states and Italian states might not like this, but I think it's good, especially since Brandenburg is a rising state, having overthrown Luxembourg and defeated the Teutonic Knights.

Other nations in the Empire!?
So it seems that Venice decided to join the Empire.

Interesting...

Not that I am against it, but what other states have joined in the last few years? We need to keep track of the states here.

We already know that Aragon and Navarre were shut out, perhaps within reason.

So what else?

Is the Byzantine Empire in the Holy Roman Empire? Is Croatia?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:44, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Venetian Requests
Okay. Let's get started.

Equal Representation
That was the plan. Regardless of where the state was, it would be equally represented.

Venetian Expansion
Okay, so I have a basic plan here. Also, what are you going to do with the islands around the Byzantine Empire? Return them (hopefully)?
 * Milan vassalises Genoa.
 * Venice gains Kaffa and the Genoan Greek Isles.
 * The Emperor gains the land to the east of Kaffa, as he has plans there.
 * The Byzantine Empire joins the HRE as a state (still under Venetian influence, of course).

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:47, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, Is this okay?: Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 01:29, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Venice gains Kaffa and most Greek Isles.
 * England gains a few Aegean Greek Isles (this was my deal with Gala)
 * Frederick gets east Kaffa, eastern part of the Genoan Black Sea territory.

That looks fine.

What about this: Both Austria and Venice surrender their possessions in the area to the Byzantine Empire, in exchange for the Empire joining the HRE. Venice is the only one to gain from that, for the most part.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:43, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Would this plan work for Venice?



Not shown on the map is Kaffa, which would belong to Venice, and the Imperial Mongol-Tartar Frontier Territory, which would belong to the Emperor.

Let me know what you think.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:52, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Venice will keep its forts and possessions in Greece, this is to ensure the Byzantines can be swiftly defended if trouble arises. The Byzantines will join the HRE anyways along with Croatia. Venice gains the Greek Islands and Kaffa. There is no need for England to get involved. Venice thinks it would be in both it and Austria's best interests for Venice to take sole control of the entrance to the Sea of Azov so only one nation is defending it. Austria keeps the rest of the Eastern part of the Kaffa territory. Scandinator (talk) 06:07, September 13, 2012 (UTC)