Talk:1983: Doomsday

'''Before you start editing, please read the Editorial Guidelines.''' Archive 1 Archive 2

NEW WORLD MAP: ALL NEW ALL NEW


a bit propaganda :) our new world map .. to keep uo motivation

look at the files talkpage to discuss things :)

no words needed :) --Xi&#39;Reney 07:31, 13 February 2009 (UTC)CHeers


 * great map,--Fero 18:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC) now some points to next edition:


 * I think South American Confederation is not a nation, is just a "defense-commerce-humanitarian" alliance (is not sow great and deep like OTL European Union, loock more like NAFTA), and nations involves in there must be paint in diferent colors, like surviving NATO - State are not in the same color, with just push the SAC flag in there you say clear they are involv in SAC. --Fero 18:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * about timeline, we have too much about some nuked almost devasted european countries but there are almost nothing about African and Asian unattacked countries. --Fero 18:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * What/why is the paint Teritory? Siberia and Canada have some real countrol about all that colored space? not more not minus, Canada not take north of USA? in aniway? specialy unclear status when they have not a start to say that is the capital city--Fero 18:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


 * next time say "i and doing a new version of world map, what you think i must add or fix from old version?"--Fero 18:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I like it too. I love that we're getting so much use out of the flags - they've become one of the visual trademarks of the timeline. Here are my nitpicking suggestions. Benkarnell 21:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree that something should show the difference between territory a country claims and territory it controls. For claims, I'd suggest the stripe pattern used in Mexico.  This is most apparent in Canada and Siberia, whose governments likely control territories barely 1/8 as large as they claim, but also shows in Spain, Britain, and Scandinavia.
 * Guyana and Suriname should be one country. French Guiana should be striped Guyana and France.
 * Maybe add the names of the small island countries; put the names and flags in the spot of ocean where the islands would belong. Countries like Tahiti and Tonga are more important than ever in this world.
 * Agree that South America should show more than one shade of green for the individual, independent member states. You could maybe show the same thing with the Euro-Atlantic allies, perhaps coloring them in different shades of red.


 * Thanks for the ideas... very good points in it!

@Fero: Sorry for not asking you guys before doing it, was already worrying about it...But waiting until all responses then I would have missed the unique oppurtunity to use MS Visio for to make the world map for 2 days, and won't get it again before aprox. May as I have been travelling though New Zealand since October (and will stay until April) without a reasonable working PC...so i took the chance and made the best out of it...sorry for any inconvenience as I am not trying to dictate things regarding the TL without speaking to the fellow WCRB guys first!

@Ben: Thank you, too. The problem with displaying area controlled/claimed etc is that it take s so much time to edit every single shape in teh world map...:( but next edition will get this fixed.... Keep on throwing in, TY! --Xi&#39;Reney 23:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

World Map Version 2.0.2

 * STARTING WORK ON EDITION 2.0.2 of the world map!!!

!! please put all things you want to be changed/added or any hints you think worth mentioning here!!!! I will work through the new additions and -based on all related discussions- try to include all considered canon within. Anything which is doubtfully canon will and can be put on discussion here --> Canon? (1983: Doomsday).


 * Utah
 * Monaco -- more of France is forthcoming -- I just haven't written it yet. --Louisiannan 16:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

to the Canonizing
I suggest two weeks (or so) of proposing issues and themes, critical new points (e.g. new United states, South African War, Nuclear Weapons Proliferation) and discussion about it. After that, I would think we can make a voting (if decision is not clear) about certain points? Of course only registered users/WCRB members can vote?? What you think about that? Thx for any suggestion!!Xi&#39;Reney 09:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I like it -- much like the IB Proposal system. --Louisiannan 16:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You know what, it might be worth taking a look at how IB does things, because this project is becoming quite similar - at least in terms of it growing too large for any one person to be the sole referee of everything that's written. There are four IB members who have contributed DD material, I believe: Louisiannan, Carlos, MrX8, and me.  We're all pretty used to designing a world as a group.  The gist of IB's system:
 * Material that is accepted as "real" is QSS - Quod scripsi, scripsi, or "What has been written, has been written". Besides being a classy biblical quote, QSS means that nothing can be changed or thrown out without very good reason.
 * Each member has basically free rein over territory that is "his". Material written about one's own territory becomes QSS pretty much automatically.
 * Any new material that is outside one's own territory has to be proposed to the group. It becomes QSS if nobody objects to it.
 * Since some people's interest comes and goes, it's polite to wait for input from inactive members before fiddling with their work.
 * Again, that's just how we've handled a similar project.
 * Benkarnell 17:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would add that there are three official "referees" that more or less have the final say as far as IB is concerned -- these positions being by invitation of the original creators of the group. You may wish to select some fellow referees who understand the spirit of 1983 Doomsday and can help you better maintain the cohesive story.
 * I didn't even know that - I guess because you so rarely have to pull rank in IB. I suspect that displays of "hard power" would be more frequent in 83DD, since we're on an open wiki.  Benkarnell 19:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the three referees of IB prefer to act like the IB League of Nations...as a last resort, but firm and absolute. --Louisiannan 20:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

UAR
What about the UAR I don' see it on this map.??????????--Emanresu11 22:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * XiReney and I pointed out several inconsistencies at Talk:United American Republic (1983: Doomsday). What you've written goes way against a lot of previously written material: the Municipal States of the Pacific were one of XiReney's first creations when he adopted this timeline.  Several of the people the page mentions are most assuredly dead.  And it goes against the general description of the interior of the USA as "medieval."  As we point out at that other talk page, it certainly doesn't have to be thrown out, but a lot does have to change before we can work it into the 1983.  So it has been left off lists and maps and so forth until we can get everything sorted out.  Benkarnell 00:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Pakistan
Have begun developing the country page for Pakistan--Exvoxmachina 01:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Rearrangement
I think I will try rearranging the content on this page to draw more attention to the Editorial Guidelines. Several new pages have been created lately by people who didn't read them first, which has caused Pain and Suffering in various amounts. Benkarnell 16:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * very nice Ben!! good new layout! and thanks for all thework in the last weeks...! I will not have really much internet access until next month,so I won't be able to do much for the rearrangement as I intended.


 * But as i am indeed travelling to Tonga next month I will try to do some on-site research for the LoN-seat,live locations, and so on. so a detailed Tonga (1983: Doomsday) report and profile will follow upon my return.

But then I get into reall getting order into the TL!! cheers --Xi&#39;Reney 23:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Rhodesia?
Most people seem to have missed Rhodesia when a new user created it last month. Some aspects of it seem toreally conflict with the Celtic Alliance, and in general it doesn't sseem to address the presence of the black majority in the region. The writer didn't respond to a question on the article talk page, so I have left a message on the user page. But what are the opinions here on the country? Benkarnell 16:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

re Rhodesia
we could imagine Rhodesia never became independent in the 1983: Doomsday and Because of its location it was unafected by WW3 so it should stay Owen1983 21:10 18 March 2009


 * Oh, I think it should stay, definitely. The war would have spared it, and perhaps delayed the establishment of democracy.  It's a few details, like Margaret Thatcher escaping to Africa, that conflict with Celtic ALliance material.  Benkarnell 01:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Rhodesian update
Rhodesia has been added to Country Profiles 1983: Doomsday the Flage and capital city are the same also I have decided that the British royal family notably Queen Elizabath survived becuse when it came clear that London would be hit by a nuke the royals fled to Rhodesa aboard the royal yacht Britannia Owen1983 29 March 2009

American states
Though the United American Republic (1983: Doomsday) article has certain flaws, I wonder even with the devastation to the United States that there might not be more areas then just the MSP that survived, especially in places around the Great Plains. Thoughts? Mitro 22:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

while the devistation that the soviets enflicted on the IS some states were spared such as Florida, Louisiana Alabama, Montana, Goargia Montana became a republic Alabama Louisian Goargaia joined Alabama then louisiana and florida to join the S.A.R Southern American Republic Owen1983 13 Abril 5:32 2009 GMT


 * I'm not so sure about the southern states, but the areas of Montana, Wyoming, and eastern Washington/Oregon have the potential of surviving better then a lot of other parts of the old US. If any government came about its likely it would be very decentralized do to size and population of the area. Mitro 22:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I made some significant changes to the Municipal States of the Pacific (1983: Doomsday) article. If anyone could look it over that would be great. Mitro 20:29, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that a surviving polity in the West is a good idea. It's just that the suggested UAR has seemed more large, well organized, and stable than I'd expect, considering the feel of the Timeline so far.  Benkarnell 18:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. I found the UAR to be too optimistic.  Its more likely that smaller organized survivor territories exist on the continent, cut off by the devastation and shortage of replacement parts.  Here are some ideas I have been toying around with:
 * Republic of Aroostook - located in Northern Maine, this area may have survived relatively intact after the war. Though close to remnant Canada and the Atlantic coast, it may difficult to explain why they weren't discovered until now.  I'm toying with the idea that they may be under a severe anti-tech government to avoid another Doomsday.
 * Appalachia Emergency Zone - its a very rural area in the US and may have weathered the years as locals and skilled refugees worked together. Thinking of creating a "clan" structure to the government.  This may also be the place where that crashed Australian pilot ended up.
 * Free City of Quincy - looking at maps this town may have managed to survive Doomsday and have access to some land in Missouri for farming to feed its population. To be honest since my hometown was wiped out I'm hoping to find places nearby that survived.
 * North Star Republic - located around Upper Peninsula Michigan and covering other territories around there, I'm planning to structure the government based on the OTL organization that proposes this state.
 * "Western Texas" - this are probably survived relatively intact also, though I lack any ideas for now.
 * Lakota - the Sioux reservations would survive Doomsday and might be the foundation for a Native American state in the region of the Great Plains.
 * Deseret - yes its an AH cliche, but maybe a Mormon state could have been carved out of southern Utah.
 * Provisional Government of Montana - this may cover Montana and Wyoming and probably out of all the areas mentioned had the best survival rate. I'm hoping to have the expedition I mention in the MSP and Timeline articles run into these guys.


 * So what do you think? Mitro 19:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

ANZ-South American relations and the war
I just posted this on the News Page. Let me know if it fits with everybody's plans, since it involves several countries and individuals:


 * MONTEVDEO - In a rare display of solidarity, South American General Governor Íngrid Betancourt and ANZC Senior Ambassador Jonathan Hunt appeared together to speak out against the Rhodesian Kingdom's war of conquest in southern Africa. The two leaders, representing rival superpowers, appeared in a joint press conference televised live in the evening throughout the continent and, via satellite, in the ANZC as well.


 * Betancourt's strong denunciation of the war was as expected full of rhetoric decrying Rhodesia's "new imperialism", contrasting its "culture of obsolete British jingoism" with the "spirit of successful multiethnic cooperation" she described in South Africa, one of several countries invaded by the kingdom this week. Hunt's tone was less strident, appealing directly to Rhodesia "as a fellow English speaking nation, and as a fellow member of the global community" to restore sovereignty to South Africa and neighboring countries "quickly - immediately." The ANZC and Rhodesia are strong trading partners, but the outbreak of war appears to be hurting their relationship as the ANZC seeks to mend relations with its traditional rival, the South American bloc. Despite his conciliatory tone, Hunt stated that he "stand[s] by every word" spoken by Betancourt.

I see this as a complicated situation. The South Americans are naturally suspicious of Anglo expansion anywhere, and there is no doubt that Hugo Chavez and other radical-types will spin the war as one more example of the Worldwide Anglo Conspiracy. So I see the ANZC as trying to distance itself from Rhodesia as fast as possible, so as to continue fostering a better relationship with South America. Recent events like the League of Nations and the internationalization of the WCRB make it seem like ANZ is trying to reach out to other countries in general and S. America in particular.

In real life Hunt was a long-serving MP in New Zealand and High Commissioner to the UK, so he seems like a good choice for my invented post of Senior Ambassador to the South American Nations. And a universally loved, anti-corruption figure like Betancourt seems a good choice for the General Governor position, which I imagine is at least in large part ceremonial. Benkarnell 22:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

first the article is very well written and will give editors a springboard whe further develping this alt history i thaught who you used a real life politician was imaginative Owen1983 00:21 17 April 2009 (GMT)


 * Thanks! Well, you've done the same thing with politicians.  You have to for a timeline like this.  It's too late to make up totally fictional people.  Benkarnell


 * As I am leaving for Tonga tomorrow and did not and do nothave the time to review everything...I lay this Rhodesia imperialism in your hands Ben... the Senior embassador is ok, very well !


 * concerning the war-like itself... withouth in-depth view its hard to judge for me now but i would be doubtful that Rhodesia would be able to advance within 2-3 days as to conquer all... not to steamroll like this...!!!

SO please rethink that and be careful... this is NO PLACE for a !!Turtledove-Draka-like scenario!! and please no queen elizabeth surviving!! :) In two weeks ill be back to duty :) sorry for the silence. Xi&#39;Reney 06:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Here are my ideas for harmonizing Owen and Mumby's Rhodesia with established facts and XiReney's input:


 * 1) South Africa collapsed and was a civil war zone by 1985. Mandela was killed that year in Pretoria.  This has been part of the timeline since the beginning, even before that mystery writer copied an early version to Scribd and added some future-history elements to it.
 * 2) Some South African Anglophones did undertake a rescue mission to Britain in 1984, and did bring back some British refugees. It was not as large or as organized as implied, however, nor was it the initiative of Botha's government - the government's main concern at the time being its own survival.  I don't see them getting the Queen, but another royal or two is possible.  I can't find any evidence that Thatcher visited the Falklands in 1983, and even if she did, how would she have learned of the British survivors in Africa?
 * 3) The British refugees found South Africa to be more violent than they had expected,and were soon radicalized behind a sort of British nationalist feeling. They united with whites who had fled Zimbabwe and made their way to the coast - no douby Mugabe would have kicked them out of the country.  The heavily pro-White, pro-English Kingdom of Rhodesia was formed sometime in 1985-1990.  They adopted the orange stripey flag based on an early proposal for a British South African flag.
 * 4) Around the same time, an exhausted and harried Botha met with some surviving ANC leaders in Johannesburg to form a new Unity government built on an anti-apartheid basis. The new state has waxed and waned ever since but has never had much direct control outside the Rand area.
 * 5) A joint ANZ/SAC force captured Cape Town from a local warlord in 2006. The "RZA Provisional Government" has reached out to Rhodesia and to the South Africa government at Jo'burg, but the Rhodesians have not been interested and communication with the interior has been too difficult.
 * 6) Last week, Rhodesia attacked the South African government at Jo'burg and moved on into Botswana and Mozambique. The Rhodesians had faslely assumed that the Commonwealthers in Cape Town would support their expansion.  The attacks have proceeded at a shockingly fast rate, but it remains to be seen whether they will be able to hold onto these lands for any appreciable length of time.
 * Benkarnell

This is a map showing zones of control - not claims - in South Africa in 2008, and the Rhodesian attacks in 2009, under my proposal above. [EDIT] There are no doubt major local powers not labeled. These are the only ones known. [EDIT x2] I should specif that I'm not trying to dictate. The list above and the map here are my ideas, nothing more. It's ultimately up to the rest of you to decide what to do with them. Benkarnell 18:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I archived the page.
I decided to go ahead and archive all of the previous stuff into a new page, as this one was getting too long. If you need to see the old stuff you can find the link to it on the top page.--ShutUpNavi 18:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Unity League Flag Proposal
I propose the image I made as the Unity League's Official Flag. Mr.Xeight 19:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's weird, but I can see it actually happening in a post-Doomsday kind of world. You can actually make it by sewing together old flags - a real advantage!  But why not just use that seal in the middle for a "unity" flag?  Maybe this version is the "full" state flag, and the seal is more of a civil flag?  Benkarnell 16:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I suppose we could just make Northern Cyprus' coat of arms (albeit a recolored one and 1983 changed to 1987) the UL's Flag. I mean the one I designed is too long, it doesn't look very uniform when compared to the others.

Hellanic League
the Helanic League is a hypothetical post doomsday union batween greece and turkey --Owen1983 19:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Alaska?
What's up with Alaska? It gets one mention in the Timeline, but apparently all the information that has been written on it comes from the maps: 1) its an associated state of ANZC, 2) its claimed by Siberia, and 3) four locations in it were nuked. Am I missing anything about it?  I'm considering writing an article about it. Mitro 22:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. However I plan on having the Soviet Navy invade and take over the Aleutian Islands and Bering Sea coastline (towns such as Nome, Barrow, and Bethel, among a few others) sometime during the 1990's. Once the Soviets assume control they transform the region into one of there "Socialist Republics" and take over the large oil and fishing industries. This causes a lot of tention between ANZC, who says Siberia's claim on Alaska is illegal.

I'll write more about it when I go to work on the Soviet Siberia article, but it may be awile (I have a lot of other things to do first). Keeping what I said in mind you can do whatever you want with the rest of Alaska.--ShutUpNavi 23:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds cool, I will add it in when I make the article. I'll try not to go into to much detail, I'll just use what you've written here when making the history. Mitro 23:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And just for the hell of it, here is the flag for Australian Alaska. No idea how Soviet Alaska should look like though. Mitro 23:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)




 * Nice! I did some quick Wikipedia-ing, and it seems very likely that society could survive best in Southeastern Alaska.  There are no major bases there. The US Naval Forces Alaska are apparently headquartered in Juneau, but that seems like a minor force. Fairbanks, Anchorage, and some of the Aleutians are definite targets.  I wonder if the Kenai Peninsula would descend into chaos while the southeast escapes.  Benkarnell 01:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the map of nuked places in the timeline, it appears that Juneau was a target. Will that be a problem? Mitro 02:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

OK so I created the article: Alaska (1983: Doomsday). It is still small because I'm awaiting confirmations on the nuke strikes and more info on a Soviet invasion, but feel free to edit. Mitro 02:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If Juneau was a target, you're right... maybe the modern state is centered on the lower part of the Kenai Peninsula, south of Anchorage and all the bases? [EDIT] Scratch that.  That peninsula's smaller than I thought.  There are other cities in the southeast, and it looks like that might be the center of population after losing Anchorage, Juneau, and other bases.  Benkarnell 03:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Nobel Prizes
With the survival of the Nordic nations and royal families, probably te Nobels have continued to be given out each year. I'd imagine that given the realities of life after 1983, the Peace Prize became even more prestigious. With science declining, maybe the other prizes haven't been given out each year. Any ideas on who might be a post-83 laureate in this timeline? Peace laureates especially, but scientists and writers welcome as well! Maybe eventually we can make a separate page for them. Benkarnell

My first suggestion: GHW Bush, for his role in diffusing the Hawaiian Civil War in 1987. [EDIT] Nevermind - in 1987 I'm sure the Nordics had no idea what was happening in the Pacific. More likely that year would be whoever was responsible for getting the Greeks and Turks to form a league of unity after a millenium or so of fighting. Benkarnell 03:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Come on, NO suggestions? I'll throw some others out there: King Andrew, who did so much in the postwar period to get the former factions to cooperate.  The PM of Australia-New Zealand in 2007/8 (Keating?), since he did so much to organize the League of Nations.  Botha and whatever South African leaders came together to form the New Union of South Africa.  Benkarnell 20:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Some ideas : (to be continued)
 * 1st proposal .Peaze price laureate: King George Taufa'ahau IV. of Tonga, LoN secretary and decisive role in the foundation talks of the LoN. Maybe a shared price with the French Polynesian High Commissioner.
 * 2nd: New Category of "Preserving world's Heritage//Preservation of Scientifical Knowledge"


 * the leaders of the Brazilian Forces and French Foreign Legion at the Guiana Space centre agreeing on ceasing hostilities and allowing the centre to be used internationally
 * The Founders of the "Doomsday Library"
 * 3rd NEw category of "New Technologies/Energy" --> Solar, wind, geothermal, Hybride Technology etc. Laureates: Inventors
 * Category of "Medicine" --> Inventors of anti-radiation treatments, disease vaccinations etc.

Xi&#39;Reney 13:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Follow-ups on the Unity League
I'm having a little bit of trouble with some things, I wondering if everyone could help me.
 * 1. If the Nation was founded in 1987, how long it would it take to join the European-Fringe Group and the UN?
 * 2. When would Athens, Constantinople, Ankara, and Thessaloniki be repopulated?
 * 3. I'm REALLY having trouble figuring out who should lead first. I was wondering if the UN or ANZC or some sort of non-biased, third-party nation, federation, organization etc. could decide.
 * 4. With the Unity League being a successor state to both the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Seljuks, and Ottomans, I'd like to expand its borders into other lands. Would maybe something rather simple like the UN giving The League (shorthand name used by the natives. The rest of the world might say the UL) mandate-ship over the Suez Canal Zone?Mr.Xeight 01:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. If the UL was founded in 1987, I'd expect it to be a founding member of the ADC (I think that's the name), since Greece and Turkey were both NATO nations. For some reason I had thought that the UL was a much later creation. [EDIT] Even if it was, the Atlantic Defense Community was apparently only founded in '07, and I think the UL was definitely a stable country by then, right?  So you may want to edit the ADC page to add the UL as a founding member.
 * 2. Which cities were targets? The fallout would clear after a few years, I think.  The real barrier would be money and population, both of which would be really, really small.  There might be national pride motivation in getting the ancient capitals up to speed, or at least getting some sort of population back in them and building parks and memorials.
 * 3. If the League was founded in 1987, there wasn't a new global community yet, and I believe that a lot of countries weren't even sure who else was "out there" in the world. All of Greece/Turkey's European neighbors were probably even worse off - the only outside mediators might be coming from the Middle East or North Africa, about which we know little.
 * 4. If they expand, it would be because they've built a stable system in a lawless and chaotic part of the world. I doubt many people care much about the Ottomans and the rest.  But they'd seem like natural caretakers for Suez.  But it seems more likely to me that the UL took over the canal first back in the 90s or so, and have turned it over to the LoN in the past year.
 * I'd say to work out the history from the 80s to today and see how things play out. Maybe some of these questions will answer themselves.  Benkarnell 02:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Try this idea out: The Unity League was occupying the Suez region by 2000 or so. In 2008 the League of Nations pressured them to internationalize it - Greco-Turks still run the canal, but as a League of Nations mandate, with LoN troops and diplomats having automatic free passage and all that. Benkarnell 22:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

That is a perfect idea! Thanks Ben! I'd also like to ask if I can finalize the UL's "liberation" of Malta. Any objections? Mr.Xeight 23:36, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

UAR
The United American Republic (1983: Doomsday) either needs a lot of work or may need to be deleted. Mitro 21:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I have moved this page to the New United States of America --Owen1983 17:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

New people, new things
The "New Additions" list is out of date, and so is the list of members. I've been lax in adding my own contributions to the New Additions list, and I've lost track of just who is "new" - or even not so new. Can everyone not currently on the list leave a note and state their position within the WCRB? :) Benkarnell 16:51, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been doing some edits only recently so I guess I'm new. I'll take the North American command if no one wants it. Mitro 22:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole WCRB thing is completely non-serious. Are the California cities the main thing you've worked on? Benkarnell
 * California and Oregon, but yes though I've made minor edits here and there. Mitro 22:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

All right, I've "bump"ed this section to the bottom of the page. Here are the people that do not seem to be on the WCBR list:
 * Mitro - North American Command, Crescent City (for the MSP)
 * Guinnesscap - Mexico Command? Centroamerican Command?, Mexíca (for Mexico)
 * Mumby - Africa Command? South Africa Command?, Cape Town  (for Rhodesia, South Africa)
 * Smoggy80 - England HQ?/Subcommand/England Expeditionary Division, Middlesbrough (for Cleveland)
 * Mr.Xeight - Mediterranean Command, Istanbul (for the Unity League)
 * Exvoxmachina - Asia Command? South Asia Command?, Bela  (for Pakistan)
 * Hellerick - Vexilology office, Canberra or Aukland (for the ANZC flag)
 * Owen1983 - What's your area of focus?
 * Loughery111 - Rocky Mountains Subcommand/Expeditionary Division, Billings(?) (for the NUSA)

If your name is missing, or if you think your WCRB post is inaccurate, please chime in now. Benkarnell 20:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like mine. Mitro 14:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you've been the only one to respond. I'll just put this list on the page.
 * I think Southern Africa Command would sound better. Mumby


 * Don't forget me! I'm working on France/French Related things and Utah! --Louisiannan 16:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So what would you prefer? It's not really my job to fill the WCRB roster, but it's becoming a tradition that everybody locate themselves in one primary spot.  Benkarnell
 * Well that's going to be difficult. I'm quite enjoying working on both.  I'm going to have to think about it, I guess. --Louisiannan 19:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well no, lots of people work in a number of areas, but for WCRB identification purposes everyone has tended to pick one. Benkarnell
 * Then Gaulish Expeditionary Division, Monaco it shall be for me.  (but I'll still be spending a lot of time on Utah for now.) --Louisiannan 21:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering if I could change my post's name from Istanbul to Constantinople. Mr.Xeight 22:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to insert and change your position! No real control mechanism there... :) Xi&#39;Reney 21:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * First Istanbul, then Constantinople, then it's Istanbul, not Constantinople ... --Louisiannan 22:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

lol, Bo. I could go for Isantinople of Constanbul, but I think splicing together two words is just an insult to memory of a two-thousand year old city. Mr.Xeight 02:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that both names are valid, even here and now - they're just in different languages. I'm sure that in a Greek-Turkish combination state both Istanbul and Konstantinoupoli are used all the time, depending on the language of the speaker.  Benkarnell 02:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

That would be true. However what would non Greeks or Turks use? An international name is one idea, or preference of the speaker I suppose is another.


 * [Overdue reply] I can't speak for other languages, but since the English speaking world knew the city as Istanbul in 1982, they are most likely to continue calling it Istanbul after 1983. Benkarnell 15:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Satelital comunication
is there satelital comunication? when? where? i remember the first celular telephones in vietnam war, and "portatil phones in cars in the 80º movies. Was that tecnology survival post doomday? what in 1984? what in 2009? is that was going why League of Nations (1983: Doomsday) take sow many time? we say LoN start in 2008. If satelital intercontinental comunication was cut out long time why League of Nations (1983: Doomsday) take sow many time? There is not Morse code? i think USA and UK was have comunication in WW2 1940. Argentina, Australia, Mexico, Ireland, NZeland, India and others not heavy damaged nation was or not have telecomunication? how long time we need to make up LoN or have a FIFA World Cup or a Olimpics Game? when international organization can go on again? Timeline of communication technology, visit that --Fero 00:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fero, prior to the last 10 years, the only countries that were launching telecommunications satellites were France, the US, Germany, and Russia. Every single one of them was destroyed on Doomsday.  As for launching more, or FIFA or whatever else, folks have been concerned with surviving.  The rest is stuff that they just don't have time for, at present. --Louisiannan 14:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

ANZAF
I'm only mentioning this here becuase I made a fairly big addition to a page that isn't mine: Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand (1983: Doomsday). Mainly I designed a set of roundels for the ANZ's air force and the air militias of associated states. Benkarnell 16:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they're very beautiful! I just have a question, besides colorationn, did you base them off of some of the places' roundels in our world? Mr.Xeight 19:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. The colors come from the ANZ flag and only coincidentally look like Jamaica's.  The animals-replacing-dots idea comes from roundels of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, which are all based on the British RAF roundel. (The dot is replaced by a maple leaf, kangaroo, and kiwi bird, repectively).  I figured that the Australians and New Zealanders would adapt an already familiar system.  Benkarnell 02:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Netherlands (Antilles)
Seeing this project growing and growing, I figured it was about time I gave my two cents. I'm currently working on the Netherland Antilles article. Basically the idea is that whilst the Netherlands is almost completely destroyed by the Doomsday events, with lack of proper drainage finishing the job, the Caribbean parts of the Kingdom keep functioning and adopt the Kingdom of the Netherlands as their own, albeit with a Latin twist to it. In the early 21st century a new queen is finally found. Though the Willemstad administration still claims control over the Netherlands itself it has no factual control there, and neither does it seem to really aspire retaking control. For the Netherlands itself I envisioned only the northern parts to retain a population of any significance. Ultimately that would lead to the establishment of two new countries there: Friesland and Lower Saxony. Friesland encompassing the current province of that name, the "Noordoostpolder" and some new island in the former province of North Holland former by the land around them flooding. Though vast parts of Friesland lie below sea level it manages to keep dry feet by employing the old school method: windmills. Lower Saxony would evolve out of the German Bundesland of that name, which spread west of the border into the Low German talking areas here. I'm not completely sure yet how these countries should then react to each other really. Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on this? --Karsten vK (talk) 16:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

New world map, South America Detailer.
New map by Fero time to choice what use now, big detail change actualized in South america, rest not changed. Guayana Esequiba, "invaded" by Venezuela, Colombization of South Panama, big flag of every south american country, they are sow iindependient like France is independet in the real European Union --Fero 16:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Greece and Turkey still called the Delian League. Good to know someone notices me work :) Mr.Xeight 17:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

New Lands for the Hungry UL
I was wondering if the UL (which with no opposition now has its colonis of Malta and the Suez Canal Zone which now allows all ANZC, European-Fring Coalition, and LoN members to pass by as much as they want with no repercussions) now that the Sicily Republic has been taken care of, could now in fact return to an empire akin to the Byzantines of Ottomans. The Assyrian Republic, Libya, and the Middle East all seem ripe for the taking; maybe even taking Italy as a mandate with the Alpine Confederation. Mr.Xeight 19:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)



I'd like to add that with the exception of Malta, Armenia, and the Sinai; all of the provinces/colonies are purely proposals. Mr.Xeight 20:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Careful about wankage. The UL would have spent most of the last 20 years surviving.  Even the world's Great Powers (Siberia, ANZ, South America) have not expanded their territory other than a few small bases or modest colony efforts.
 * For the Balkans: annexation seems unlikely (wild, barbaric region), but how about puppet states or vassals? I'd think the UL would be after influence more than territory per se.  Benkarnell 02:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Once again you've saved me from dillusionment. How about Greece is "the Arsenal of Democracy". That way when it goes to war with Yugoslavia, Sadaam's Assyrian Republic, Quadhadafi's Libya etc it can instead set up as you suggested. Republics with pro-UL governments. However maybe some states could be outright annexed (such as the Suez Zone, maybe another piece of North Africa, Macedonia, &/or others). Protectorates could be an idea as well. On a completely unrelated note, what's happening with DD's Tibet? I noticed Lhasa was bombed. I would love to set up a truly peaceful Tibet where the Chinese sent there to breed out the natives ousted and a small, Buddhist, theocratic, states could emerge and be completely shut off from the outside world; maybe even unknown or "hidden". Mr.Xeight 02:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I frankly don't know how much of Greece would've survived with the nuclear exchanges -- Louisiannan 14:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I'd say Attiki and (sadly) Euboea would be destroyed in the Athens bombing, East Macedonia including Mount Athos would be destroyed in the Thessaloniki bombing. That's pure speculation on my part. I have no idea how big the radius of the bombs were, or how bad radiation would be. However what I can tell you is the Greeks of all the islands, Cypriot Greeks, and Greeks in the interior would carry on Hellenic Society. I can tell you is Constantinople was completely rebuilt to meet both the needs of the Greeks and Turks, including a new Hagia Sophia that has both liturgies for Orthodox Christians, and liturgies of Muslims. I was thinking it'd be around the size of Washington DC and around the same population, so I copied WDC's pop and area. The rest of the cities I gave a pop. figure on was I did in google calculator Anakara pop * (1/28) or Athens pop * (1/16), stuff like that. Either way I don't expect the UL to have the same population of our Greece & Turkey until 30 years from now, maybe more. Mr.Xeight 01:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

the alpine confederation has been deleted
this is annoying --Owen1983 20:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean? It was only moved a better formatted page. The Confederation is alive and well (much to my relief) Mr.Xeight 20:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I moved it so the name would match up. I thought I'd fixed all the redirects to it. Louisiannan 14:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Timeline_(1983:_Doomsday) and Overview Timeline_(1983:_Doomsday) ...
first i support the existence of a short/easy to read timeline, but the actual (may 17) Overview have 80% of longer of the original "literature" TL, i wish read fast, but all that "blablabla" is hard to my "illegal immigrant english", i love * and more * and "1997" and *16 june australia anex Nz, *20 august australian autoritis meet in hawaii, That is a Overview--Fero 04:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I started it and never really finished it. You're right about it.  If anyone else wants to contribute to making it shorter... Benkarnell 15:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Weather Patterns
While there was no nuclear winter, it's often been suggested that the effects of the nuclear blasts could change the weather patterns so that there is no longer a doldrums at the equator and that there would be a wider range from the horse latitudes in the north to those in the south, and that the monsoon weather would affect further north for this reason. What do we think? This is part of my idea for Utah -- with the restoration of Lake Bonneville (essentially). --Louisiannan 16:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a huge issue! While all of us are running around our own little countries, that's something that needs to be sorted out on a "world wide" level.  It occurred to me that many of the Pacific islands I've been writing about might actually be underwater due to the higher temperatures.  Benkarnell 17:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * At the same time, if the model I've proposed were to truly come to pass, you'd find a huge increase in glaciation in the northernmost and southernmost hemisphere (Scandinavia, Russia, Canada and the high mountains -- Rockies and Andes). This would suck up water into snow and glaciers.  I suggest that there is this change, and because of that, pluvial/endorheic lakes of the Great Basin and frankly, west of the United States, period will likely return.  Other lakes of similar nature around the world may likely see an increase of moisture and grow, like Lake Eyre in Australia, among others. Louisiannan 17:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps what is needed is a page on where you can sum up what would likely happen.  It's an extremely important topic, since it potentially affects every part of the world - again, I'll delete everything I've written on atoll islands if they're likely to be underwater.  The old text on the timeline mentions a rise of 10 to 25 degrees Fahrenheit - that's a devastating change beyond any predictions  I've heard for OTL's global warming.  Some text mentions falling temperatured by 2003.  If these numbers are utterly unrealistic, I say change them.  Benkarnell 20:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I would argue that an initial rise is likely, but with increasing rain and glaciation in the high mountains around the world, it may cool down some, too. I'll have to look up the file I found about it -- it was published in 1984 -- so I figured it was fitting to this TL.  I vote to hold off the deletion until we've decided what happens in climate. Louisiannan 21:19,18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * about sea level list of countries by highest point and lower point, Lists of countries wikipedia english; a good base to every ATL --Fero 03:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Sports (1983: Doomsday)
we must/should have that here, in plural with final "s". You are wellcome to plot there: *Lists --Fero 00:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * List of sports
 * List of basic sports topics
 * List of professional sports leagues
 * List of sports attendance figures
 * List of sportspeople
 * Timeline of sports
 * Related topics
 * Combat Sport
 * Disabled sports
 * Fandom
 * Female sports
 * History of sport
 * Multi-sport events
 * National sport
 * Nationalism and sports
 * Olympic Games
 * Spectator sports
 * Sponsorship
 * Sport in film
 * Sport governing bodies
 * Sports broadcasting
 * Sports club
 * Sports coaching
 * Sports equipment
 * Sports injuries
 * Sports league attendances
 * Sports marketing
 * Sports terms named after people

FIFA World Cup, and other sport WC, too

weather patterns
A lot of people have been purplexed about this issue but as i and a few other poeple are responsible for the Celtic Allience i have decided thay the country woll take a lead on this --Owen1983 16:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You'll want to comment on the proposal at then. --Louisiannan 16:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Urban Legend
BTW, this story about Colonel Petrov is a legend. The Early Warning System was not officially adopted at that time and gave a false signal while being tested — nobody was taking it too seriously. Standard routine checking proved the signal to be wrong. Yes, Petrov was supposed to report about any signal, even about a doubtful one, which he did not, but it hardly could have any consequences. His presence/absence could not start the war. — Hellerick 16:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * According to whom is it an urban legend? It seems to me that the whole story is fairly well substantiated, aside what the possible response of the Kremlin would be.  What have you found to make you think this way? --Louisiannan 19:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Urban legend or not, there is now an entire TL - nay, an entire universe - based on it. So I don't think it will change anytime soon.  Benkarnell 19:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Urban legend?...According to my knowledge Petrov is credited for his importance by all TV documentations available for the Sept 26th 1983 event. He even received a formal honour by the World Citizens organisation... so I think the knowledge is profound and approved. As Ben said we are way too far to change the POD substantially now...And maybe no one will ever now for a 100% if we now all end everythin about the near DD events in the 20th century. There are for sure moments we never had and never will hear about... no american military and no russian government will release any information confirming their failure if not pressured by media, world public in the case of Petrov...... --Xi&#39;Reney 10:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah there were many "nearly-Doomsday" events in history, on both sides.
 * Anyway, nobody needs Petrov not reporting about the false nuclear attack because he's afraid to be responsible for malfunction of his equipment, everyone wants him to be a dissident confronting the totalitarian regime to the save the world.
 * I don't mean to change anything. On the other hand a more credible explanation would not hurt. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 11:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Library project
One of the important problems of the post-Doomsday world is the massive loss of information. The Doomsday happened before most information was digitalized, back then the world of information still was ruled by the great paper libraries. Now the most prominent libraries of the Northern Hemisphere are destroyed, and huge amount of cultural, technical, and official information (in any form: textual, graphic, cinematographic...) is lost forever. I think it's a common practice now to send "info search parties" to the Affected Areas (as well as to search thoroughly through unaffected territories), in attempt to find documents, to systematize them, and to preserve them. Currently most discovered documents are digitalized, and while some of them become "classified", usually the info-searchers are willing to share them with the world. I think there should something like "The International Information Preservation Project" a.k.a. "The Doomsday Library", with most countries participating in it. — Hellerick 16:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That's really a good point. Probably that general idea was the original idea behind the expeditions that led to the WCRB - there just wasn't a lot of information left.  There would actually be a few major libraries left: New Zealand and South America come to mind.  Maybe the "Doomsday Library" (great name!) is an NGO that tries to get these two rival powers to share their wealth of knowledge rather than use it for exclusively national advantage.  Benkarnell 16:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Doomsday Library" not a good name to my, sow dark, i think must be something around recontruction maybe "Light Library" or like "Renaissance" a end to the new middle age--Fero 22:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I meant "Doomsday Library" to be unofficial name of the project — it does not have to be "politically correct".
 * Yes, many important libraries survived. The Hispanic world is almost unaffected, and the English-speaking world is still well represented. On the other hand many European languages became nearly extinct, with hardly any documents in them left. Huge amount of artwork is lost. We can't expect the pieces of Louvre and the British Museum to be found, but at least we can hope their replicas can be found. (BTW, yet one important thing that has to be found -- the International Prototype Kilogram.) I think Siberians were the first ones to organize info search parties into the Zone, trying to find Soviet documents. Later there were international expeditions to Europe. The southern powers provided technical help (digitalization, and organization of informational networks). In fact this world's Internet probably appeared as part of Doomsday Library project. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 14:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting... the Internet. Where would most of the experts be concentrated?  AIUI, the proto-Internet of the early 1980s was almost totally confined to the US.  Who would be left to build a new one? Benkarnell 15:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently someone was already thinking of an internet in this universe: Science & Technology (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 15:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's all well and good, but given that the major manufacturers of computer technology were all in the Northern Hemisphere, I would barely expect DD1983 tech to be equivalent to the late 80's -- MAYBE (and I stress MAYBE) equivalent to that of the early 1990's, like Windows 3.1 and dial-up, but mostly NOT like here, not even like the internet of the mid-90's. IMHO. --Louisiannan 20:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The Doomsday Library is an amazing idea. Any thoughts where it might be put? LoN HQ in Tonga would be a guess? or any remote island where it is unlikely to be destroyed in any future war? e.g. Easter Island? How would it be looking like? Microfilm? Discs? As a compromise for a formal name maybe sth. like "S.a.w.k." Saving all we know"-Project. I might think this to be initiated by an international private association rather then being started by distrusting and arguing governments growing. Maybe it will grow larger and larger maybe into a google-like conglomerate??!


 * Concerning the Internet I introduced the "The first worldwide communication network accessible via computer terminals in public sites worldwide was created in 2000. The Argentina-Chile - SAC initiated "Red Mundial de Communicacion" (REMUNDO), known just as REM.

Just a basic idea that an DD - Internet would be very limited in speed and access i thought about a very basic network only accessible in national libraries, universities and only to limited sites of those named institutions and from only the advanced countries (ANZC, SAC etc.). This would mirror somehow the Internet started in the first place, limited to CERN and other high.end institutions. I would also guess a major obstacle in international communication is the lack of satellite communication as nearly all rocket launch capabilities, knowledge and background have been destroyed, jammed or lost. Maybe the Guiana Space Centre could play a role ... look the Odyssey-rocket program.

This was all just a spontaneous idea from some time ago and not seriously researched canon content. All serious comments and critics welcome...!!!Xi&#39;Reney 13:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * @Dan - I think that the Internet of DD might be even less advanced than that. With the USA gone, they'd essentially be rebuilding fromthe ground up.  Maybe nothing more than ARPANET or some of the other early networks.  Definitely no computers with fancy graphics - the focus wuold be on information, raw and utilitarian.
 * @XR - I like the idea of Easter Island, not just because I'm something of a Rapanuiphile. It's the only Polynesian island that would be a part of South America, which might be a factor.

The Doomsday Library should not be located in just one place. It's rather about document sharing, not about document keeping: you have found something — share it with the rest. Technically it should be decentralized system of teletypes, telefaxes, and of course some primitive computer networks. That's why I believe it would cause development of technologies that will lead eventually to creation of Internet. Every member of the Library decides how to keep the information they received through the Library. I guess they create some kind of data centers in every country. — Hellerick 09:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Nukes map, reasonable correction


I think Japan (US allied ) must be nuked, and i say we must do a new map titled "1983Nukes2.png" --Fero 19:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

If Japan is nuked, that's fine. This map was initially created, from what I understand, to be a temporary guide. If you say Japan is nuked, tell us where the bombs fell. --Louisiannan 20:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * US military base in japan, wikipedia, USA Forces japan, wikipedia, and i will upload that image--Fero 20:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

List of USA military base in every where a good base to File:1983Nukes.png--Fero 21:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The map stills lists the nuke destined for Athens as way too far north. Unless its canon that the Athens nuke actually hit dozens of miles north, way closer to Thessaloniki that's fine with me. Otherwise I'd like to move it, that I can do. Mr.Xeight 23:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * you can upload a new version but in the description you must say what you was change, thank U for collaboring--Fero 03:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Ecumenical Council of the Falklands (formerly titled "Falkland Islands")
There seems to be some confusion regarding the Falkland Islands. According to the world map its a part of the Celtic Alliance. According to the country profiles its disputed between South America and Australia. Finally according to Falkland Islands (1983: Doomsday) the islands are a part of Rhodesia. We really need to come to a consensus regarding these islands since this problem is across several articles. Mitro 17:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * All the claims could be true... Louisiannan 19:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but the islands just don't have a unified history across the articles. For example according to the main TL the islands voted to join Rhodesia in 2003, but according to the Falkland article it was 1984.  Also it seems to be that the most logical owner of the islands would be ANZS. Mitro 19:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we need the Ecumenical Council of the Falklands to meet. --Louisiannan 19:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, nice. Mitro 21:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Called to order.
 * I think Argentina is most likely. It was stable and close, and the Falklanders needed supplies.  All those overseas powers would have been utterly incapable of helping Falkland out before the 90s or so, and by that time the Argentines would have gotten there and taken over.  I don't think the Falklanders would have minded, either - yes, I'm sure they were quite happy to be British in '82, and happy about winning the war and all that, but nuclear cataclysm tends to make people re-evaluate things.
 * Even if the Falklanders were keen on rejoining a British nation in the 90s or 00s, by then I doubt the Argentines were going to give them up. They had already fought one war over the islands, and were by then more willing and able to fight another than any other takers, IMO.  I don't see the Celts or Aussies risking a war, and the Rhodesians were probably not strong enough to take Argentina on.  Benkarnell 20:17, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * From a pure logistical standpoint of military support, Rhodesia, ANZC and the CA all have significant oceanic travel standing in the way of military conquest, whereas for the Argentines, it's a small strait away. --Louisiannan 20:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Falkland was conques in 1984, become argentine control and administration and flakpeople can choise, get in a shit and try come some british isle in the ocean, or become argentine citizen, maybe in the 90" and 00" South Africa (or brisih something), CANZ and Celtic do something, but in 80" falk become Malvinas. i will back later--Fero 20:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it unlikely that so soon after Doomsday that Argentina would launch a military conquest, especially considering that Argentina would have its hands full with the economic, political, and environmental problems caused by Doomsday. Also there would still be a British military presence so soon after the Falkland War, which makes me think that the island would be drawn toward Australia since its relatively intact and would have a strong military thanks to the Gathering order.  Still there are strong arguments that Argentina might gain control of the islands eventually, it just seems unlikely so soon after Doomsday. Mitro 21:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * However, the invasion of the Falklands was only repelled due to the quick action of the RAF -- there was no RAF, and Australia and Rhodesia were much more concerned with consolidation and survival than some far-flung set of islands that pretty much only produce sheep. --Louisiannan 21:24, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but 1984 still seems an unlikely time for Argentina to "conquer" the islands. Would they really expend the effort so soon after doomsday for islands that "only produce sheep" when they may not be secure enough to launch such an attack?  Despite not being targeted they too would be feeling the effect of WWIII, even if only indirectly.  I'd be happier with sometime later or a peaceful transition as suggested by Ben. Mitro 21:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose it comes down to this: Did Reynaldo Bignone lose the October 1983 election? Would public opinion have been swayed by the events of September, enough that Bignone would have remained in power instead of losing to Raúl Alfonsín?  If so, it might be more likely that military prestige/leadership would push for the effort.  I think what we have to do is decide what happened in Argentina before we can proceed with any sense of coherency.  And in so-doing we avoid the necessity to revisit what should otherwise be QSS.  Does that make sense?  (Little fuzzed--taking Benadryl because of stupid allergies.) --Louisiannan 22:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to this TL the elections were suspended, but according to the Argentina article Raul Alfonsin is president in 1984. Thought you would like to know.  Mitro 13:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * just say, that Discourse and Debate is nice... and Falklands was really conquest for a "few" army (a fraction of argentine army, the rest was stay in the continent) in 1982 and days before a great army (a fraction of UK army) reconquers there, but almost british army was fall in 1983, and in 1984 (or near) 2000 falklands "sheeper" have not much defence power for itself, that is what i think--Fero 04:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The size of the militaries is not my concern, what is in that in little over a year (or slighlty more) after a nuclear WWIII that Argentina will not be in the shape to conquer anything. The indirect effects of the war will hamper Argnetina to do anything outside its borders while its deal with its own interior issues for some time.  For Argentina to conquer the Falklands in 1984 will only work if the alien space bats lend them a hand.  Besides according to this TL Argentina would already be "absorbing" Uruguay in 1984 and digesting that would make a conquest of the Falklands even more problematic (not to mention odd that no one else in South America seemed to care that Argentina just invaded them for no reason).  A peaceful acquistion as Ben suggested would work.  Mitro 13:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned, I just want to be sure we think it through before we go making decisions willy-nilly and have to retcon a bunch of information. --Louisiannan 14:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree completely (especially since I found another inconsistency regarding the Falkland Islands) and some good research is needed. Either way though the map is going to change because I doubt the Celts are going to keep them. Mitro 14:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * @Mitro - I would think that by 1984 the Falklanders would be hungry and in need of electricity. According to Wikipedia, in the 1980s the islands didn't have a diverse agriculture and would have relied on imports for non-sheep food products.  Argentina could acquire the Falklands quite easily in the Aftermath era simply by saying, "You want our food and power, you follow our rules."  How could the islanders possibly say no?  They needed to live.  Benkarnell 15:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is essentially what I have been supporting, a peaceful acquisition, its the hostile, military conquest that Fero has suggested which I find unlikely. So should I begin changing the mentions of the Falkland islands or is there any other points?  (Note: I'm not very artistic so someone else has to tackle the map)  Mitro 15:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)