Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flip back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

I bought the OTL Falklands from Maharajya two years ago - and several formaer Welsh lands continue to be shown in Welsh blue. (Mauritius and reuinion as well as Falklands.) Commandante Lemming (talk) 13:38, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Saxony and Germanica entered into a land swap deal in 1821 whereby Saxont gave the Guinea Schutzgebiet (The Saxon colony made up of the former New Mecklenburg (Brandenburer colony) and Saint John (Italian colony)) to Germanica in return for the Germanic (previously Ethiopian and before that, Welsh) colony in Australis centred around the otl Joseph Bonaparte Gulf. If this change could be added to the next map that would be greatly appreciated. Callumthered (talk) 07:04, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, I traded the former Ethiopian-created colony in Australia (Borona was it?) to Bavaria in exchange for Bavarian Carthage. Or whatever you call that place between French Carthage and Cypretian Cyrenacia.

                "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:06, September 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * So basically, all of North-Western Australis is now owned by the Suddeutsches Reich (achievement unlocked!). Callumthered (talk) 00:08, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Labelled Map






















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<p style="font-size:13px;">New labelled maps :P Scandinator (talk) 16:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">I think it may be time to update the maps as a lot of territory changes have occurred in the last 50ish years.Andr3w777 (talk) 01:00, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the Europe labelled map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:09, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

It has been updated again. However, some parts might not be fully accurate. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:08, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map


<p style="font-size:13px;"> Colors:

<p style="font-size:13px;">Catholic - Light Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Reformed Churches - Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Kappelists - Dark Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Eastern Orthodox - Mustard

<p style="font-size:13px;">Islam - Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Nestorianism - Light Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Hinduism - Teal

<p style="font-size:13px;">Buddhism - Pale Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Animism/Indigenous - Yellow <p style="font-size:13px;">I made this map, using the latest 1730 map, and the old Religion Map as a guide. I do not claim this to be official, but please add/edit/update it as you feel needed to do so. If the mods don't like this, please take it down, but I only want to help. Reximus55 (talk) 10:35, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Update time? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:38, March 24, 2013 (UTC) </li>

Industrial Algorithm Modifiers and Industrial Era areas and rates.
I have a proposal to modify the algorithm to put into perspective the colonial wars of the 18th-20th century. An algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. Nations with two stages use the higher when defending and the lower when attacking. Scandinator (talk) 04:59, April 28, 2013 (UTC)



Stage 1

 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Stage 2​

 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Stage 3

 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Railways appear
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Stage 4​

 * Civilian railways appear allowing easier access
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Stage 5

 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Stage 6​

 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Stage 7

 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
I'm extremely confused. Also, I think the industrialization chart should be corrected, as Scandinavia has been vanquished.

16:08, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see no need to remove them, as they have already been removed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I like this one better than it's predecessor, mainly beccause there are more divisions here, allowing for a more accurate representation of the country's standing. Albeit, there are a few things that could be amended. CourageousLife (talk) 16:22, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Much better. And what is confusing Scraw? It is pretty simple to understand once the map is up showing industrialisation levels. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:27, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's for the map.


 * 17:16, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

It needs some corrections, as some characteristics are too late or too early for their times.Such as: We should move the appearing of railways to stage 4, and their spread to 5, to start with, After all, when we talk about railways, this implies steam locomotives, necessarily.And, steam locomotives in 1770?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't too far-fetched. A viable steam engine existed in 1782, it just took a while(about 20 years) before people to realise it could be used for rail transport. A two-cylinder steam engine was invented by a Russian in 1766...it had great potential, and could have perhaps accelerated the development of the steam locomotive by a phew decades(maybe only 10 years to say: put it on a fracking train) but The Empress ditched the designs in favor of a more "Brittish" system(i.e. hydraulicaly cooled that required close water supply...this lagged locomotive construction). So...RUssians could have built locomotives in the 1770s...but the empress wanted to stay close to brittain, and brittish-style tech, so that slowed many things...and because of that, the twocylinder stam engine was scrapped.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unlike the last game, the East is on better footing with the West, and thus will breed even more competition. I think this is completely fine if you ask me. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I've done the research in the industrial era. For whomever industrializes first, these technologies do not suddenly appear. It is gradual in within each stage. Scandinator (talk) 11:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would think that, like in PMII, crimson would be a fraction of the main natino around the nation's "heartland/capital" area, and the rest of the nation would get industry red. And colonies would industry get a colour under their founding nations, etc... However, I am worried about the ammount of colours...in any case, I do believe that orange and yellow(or at the least orange) should get planes at the same time as red and crimson...technology and trade would change to the point that...well...those nations could do thema t the same time...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel like one of these (red, yellow, orange) should be removed. Also, shouldn't Europe (closer to Italy) be receiving industrialization faster than the Middle East?

21:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not that the map is bad, but I would say that the coast and Dehli should be joined up as they are prime industrial locations. Doesn't really change anything, but it looks nicer, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian Federation should really industrialize earlier than its vassal of Baghdad I think. Albeit just industrializing along the coastal regions like Oman and Qatar where the majority of my urban population lives. The Nejd won't see industrialization for many years later. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

China would industrialize quicker than the yellow rate due to their extensive trading, especially with Orissa and Italia. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I too feel that China should be in orange.

I also find it strange that both Georgia and Austria are in orange while Germany itself is in yellow. Not to mention that Germany was higher than Russia on the chart and closer to Italy than Russia.

21:25, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Aren't any of these going to be addressed?

17:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd so something about it since I'm a mod, but I'm not sure if I have clearance for this map. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 18:20, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll edit it since, not only does it seem like the plausible thing to do, but worst-case scenario, they'll revert it and yell at me a little. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 16:53, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be less of orange China, as lots of those areas would be presently unsuitable for industrialization.

22:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a buffer between red and yellow.

CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 05:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I like how Germany is on the same level with the Dimurat and Siberia.

23:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

As per my post on the page I'd like to propose that the point on Steel and Glass is changed to "Steel and Glass become mass producible". Also I now have both light green and yellow industrial stuffs in my nation so how does this affect my industrialisation? Kunarian TALK 06:54, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Based on precedence, I'd say no, as I've conquered both orange and red territories. I'm in orange, so realistically speaking, I only got red land but no red rights. So I'm pretty sure the answer is that you will not advance.

21:06, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

I just want to propose one change. I think orange should enter Stage 6 in 1900, and Stage 5 in 1865.

18:34, August 17, 2013 (UTC)

Guys i think France Should as of 1820 - 1830 be entering the Red stage, after all the Industrialization process as a player nation has grown eversince 1720 if not earlier, and france has enough resources from their relative states ( Such as the colonies or Vassals). Sine dei gloriem (talk) 03:55, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Special NPC bonus nations
Hey so these nations are special Non Player Countries because these nations used to be part of a powerful empire which ruled lots of the world, hence they are stronger than normal nations.

This bonus is worked out like the normal NPC bonus; where in every very year that a NPC nation is not at war or expanding, or having a disaster, it will build up one of the three development areas (military, infrastructure and economy). The number of total buildups will be divided into the three categories as evenly as possible, with preference going infrastructure>economy>military. With their final score will be divided by two then rounded to the nearest whole. However the special NPC bonus doesn't divide by two, so it is just the number of total buildups.

E.g. If a nation existed for 15 years, or spent 15 turns not doing anything, this would mean that the infrastructure, military and the economy were updated in five turns each. The NPC nation would receive fifteen points of bonus, five for each department (economy, infrastructure and military).

The nations with this special NPC bonus are as follows:

The Middle East Africa East Indies and Australia
 * The Republic of Turkistan
 * The Sultanate of Baghdad
 * The Sultanate of Kuwait
 * The Kingdom of Dimurat
 * Mangystau
 * Ha'il
 * Buraydah
 * Khafji
 * Saudi Arabia
 * Ar Rayn
 * The Arabian Federation
 * Oman
 * The Emirate of Shaybah
 * The Caliphate of Hejaz
 * Najran
 * The Emirate of San'a
 * Aden
 * Hadhramaut
 * Salalah
 * Socotra
 * The East African Federation
 * Sukuma
 * The Kingdom of Nyamwezi
 * Mbeya
 * New Oman
 * Bengkulu
 * Jambi
 * Lampung

Protectorate rules
Seeing how some nations are getting protectorates I think we should make the rules about them clear. As far as I'm concerned they aren't as good as vassals so they should be treated as NPCs in the algorithm, but the protecting nation should always help out their protectorate in any wars they are in and if you don't then the protectorate treaties will end as you failed to protect them.

Extending there treatment as NPCs you can't post turns for them either, and they can only give +1 to algorithm strength scores as (P) and they must be close to where the war is happening otherwise they don't get involved (e.g. Normandy's Mogadishu protectorate can't send aid to Normandy's wars in Europe).Protectorates get a -3 algorithm penalty in all wars due to their reliance on their protector.

They are shown in the colour of the protecting nation on the map so players know if other PNs are protecting them, and also you can only have a maximum of 5 protectorates. If you have 3 or more protectorates you also get a war algorithm penalty of -2 for having protectorates as your military will be stretched trying to protect these far off nations. It'll take a 4 year minimum to establish a protectorate too. You can also then peacefully turn your protectorate into a vassal or puppet after 15 years of that nation being your protectorate. You can do it sooner than 15 years if you like but an algorithm will be needed.

Thoughts on these new rules? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:24, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think that this is good enough.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:51, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay and also they should expand like NPCs since players can't post for them and because the protectorate is weak relying on another nation for protection.

I'll add this stuff to the rules page in a few days to give other people a chance to comment on these new rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:30, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Change to Industrial Bonus
I would like to propose a change to the bonus in that population determines whether or not you get the bonus, instead of how many nations actually should get it by weight of numbers (having more industrialized nations on your side that it). My reasons for this are simple. During World War II, Germany was one of the most industrialized nations on Earth. However, it couldn't defeat the Soviet Union despite that since Germany's population was too small beat the vast industrial base and population of the Soviet Union. Even though the Soviets had fewer advanced factories or training, they simply had more factories to work with, and more people to man them all. Eventually, Germany was crushed by a tide of Soviet tanks that were being churnned out in the tens of thousands. The USSR's 200 million people and backwards industrial base, beat Germany's 80 million people and smaller yet more advanced industrial base. Henceforth, I believe that the industrial bonus should be tided in with the population size of the nation using it. Just a suggestion. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 13:50, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

There were many reasons for that. Foremost was the fact that by 1940, the USSR was one of the world's leading industrial powers. Spread out and poor but still an industrial power compared to most of the world. Furthermore was the fact that Germany had huge supply lines to fight in the USSR while the factories in the Ural mountains continued churning out tanks and aircraft and their supply lines shrank. Scandinator (talk) 15:31, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Even before the supply lines broke, and before the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Germans were still having manpower issues. They couldn't produce nearly enough tanks or aircraft to fight the Russians, even though they were technially more advanced and still had strong supply lines. In the end, it couldn't afford the manpower losses that the Soviets could. Heck, if the United States invaded Britain today, Britain's supply lines would service the entire nation. But the US would still will even though it was fighting across the Atlantic. Why? It can afford to build more guns, more ships, and more tanks at the end of the day, and can afford to lose more men, while Britain cannot. Germany had poor logistics yes, but the Soviet Union had to service the same amount of territory with fewer supplies and facilities (Germany still had more rails and ships than the Soviets, and its territory was more densely-populated). My point remains that the Soviet were still industrializing by the time of the war, they simply marshalled their manpower to advance it for the conflict. Its repeated numerous times in every history book about the war I've read. I should really learn how to minimize these walls of text. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:49, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

You're completely right also personally I think that there should be an increase to the population bonus as like it or not, it's largely the biggest nation wins the war throughout recent history. Kunarian TALK 15:45, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I concur. It's not entirely plausible either. I mean, how much of your population can you really have in the military and working in factories at any given time?

15:57, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

But then you cannot have a nation greater than you in population but say two levels below you in industry take you over. That has also never happened. The reason the Indians were under the Brits so long was becasue they were technologically superior (logistics and otherwise). :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:01, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yup. Industrialized nations can easily conquer vast portions of unindustrialized land (which is why I'm confused as to why Ethiopia can't expand any faster into the black lands). And to anwser your question Scraw, the Soviet Union had 12.5 million soldiers in its standing army throughout World War II, and at the time of its dissalution in 1991, it had about three to five million troops. So that was about six percent of its population in 1945 and five percent by 1991. As for factories, the Soviet Union had 80% of its population in factories in 1980. So to finish, you can have a lot of people in factories and in the military. You don't need millions of people on a farm really, and most modern first world countries get by comfortable with only 2-3% of their population working the fields. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:02, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

You understand that 1900s industrialization is different to 1700s industrialization right? Also the USSR is a communist government with a centrally planned economy. The examples you are using are quite irrelevant to our current situation of 1700s economics and technology, with the largely democractic and/or monarchies which most nations players have are. The industrialization bonus is to make it easier for industrialized nations to colonize non-industrialized nations as without this bonus, nations would have no points to show that they have more advanced technology. Your example of example of WW2 nations was fought between nations with a largely similar level of technology so the industrialization bonus wouldn't come into play, but things like recent wars and allies would, meaning the USSR would win.

Numbers isn't everything, if you have significantly better technology that more advanced nation will win - e.g. Britain vs Zulu or the Darleks invading Earth. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:01, August 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * United Earth still defeated the Romulans, even though they had superior technology. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:22, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose I'll use another example then. During the American Civil War, the North had three times the people than the South, four times the railroads, nine times the factories, and twice as many soldiers. This was in an era that was before the advent of electricity and the era of true mass production, so there is little to take away from it. Heck, even railways existed in the early-1800s, meaning that the economics, though not as rail-reliant as the 1860s, are still somewhat comparable. So the point still stands regardless, that numbers and industry still remain important as more bodies means more production, and more production means more guns, uniforms, and munitions. And on the Zulu, they were fighting a power that had a colony nearby, providing troops and ammuntion to fight a nation that was a pre-industrial power with a population of 500,000-1,000,000 people. The Boers were more numerous than them. Plus, the Zulu were fighting in a small area, and only fielded 14,000 to 20,000 men in the entire war, with the largest battles having no more than 4,000-5,000 warriors. The British fielded 1,000 troops at Isandlwana alone. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:29, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well this is awkward....
Hey all, is there some way the mods can respond on behalf of Brython to my royal sucession crisis while Rex is blocked. I've boxed myself into a situation that needs a Brythonic response and putting my nation on hold for two weeks is not a great option. I don't know what Rex's plan was as he mentioned "further negotiation", but I can tell you that this succession crisis has been in the works for "decades", it was planned at the time of the royal wedding, and the entire existence of Brython's Prince Atticus was my idea in the first place (his entire purpose in existing is to unify the dynaties while separating the lines of succession). Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:41, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Note of Leave
Hi everyone! While PMII has been super fun, I'll have to say I've gotten a bit unentertained by it. I'll be taking an indefinite, prob. permanent break, starting today, and I'd appreciate it if my country, Mali, and her vassals of Gabu, Mossi, and Wolof were handed off to a new player. Other than that, all the mods on this game have been great as well as all the players! Thanks for providing a super fun map/game experience.

Shawnguerra (talk) 18:59, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Shame to see you go :( <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:34, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

The stealing of Persia
Okay so Yank has seemingly stolen Persia from Warman555. Warman555 has posted as Persia as well, and there is also the algorithm on the talk page which shows that Persia is a player nation, and also Warman has posted on the discussion boards about advice for Persia too.

This behaviour is completely unacceptable as a mod. I can't find anything on their talk pages agreeing to the swap over, so I'm assuming the worse case scenario. If its been agreed to and I just didn't find the agreement then fair dos, and apologises for this post.

Otherwise what should we do about this incident? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:34, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't he going to be the Byzantines?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:51, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

He's seemingly done the right thing there and left them to Cyprus, but he's doing it again now basically. This is twice in a like week. It is a terrible standard for a mod to be setting. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:55, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I motion for a vote of no confidence against Yank. (Hope someone catches the reference in there.)

19:58, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Don't quote Phantom Menace, damn it! CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 21:03, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Folks, lets calm down. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:26, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I thought that warman was only listed as Persia because that section of the signup sheet wasn`t updated. It still listed 77Topaz as Tibet, after all. And I don`t remember him posting until AFTER I chose Persia. Yank 21:35, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I`m trying to become a more permanent part of this map game again, and yet every single nation I pick is taken. There seems to be quite a few novice map game users who post for a little while and them forget that his game exists. I`m net trying to abuse my status, but it is frustrating to have lost a nation to someone who can`t play the game properly.Yank 21:45, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I agree Warman555 is quite the novice but you can't just go and take another player's nation. Why not go for Baghdad next door? They're quite powerful. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:18, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I'll be Bagdad. Here's hoping It'll stick in tume for the next map. Yank 21:48, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Removing Posts
Someone has removed my posts from 1805 and 1806. I'm currently trying to find the perpetrator, but there's a bunch of history to go through.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:20, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

While we're discussing this, can someone from the mod staff give a brief note on how to handle edit conflicts. I got busted for accidentally deleting a post by Von and I'm re-arranging my process to try and ensure it doesn't happen again but I doubt I'm the only one who has done this. To review, my own process to avoid edit conflicts (now) is to copy my entire text before publishing. In the event of and edit conflict, I will exit the editor entirely, refresh the main PMII page, re-open the editor and paste my entry at the bottom. Is this a fool proof way of doing it? I don't think I'm the one who took out the posts in question but if I did I know I've been actively tweaking my process to avoid this. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:33, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Usually i copy my post and in case of edit conflict, i copy my post and add it to the present version.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:21, August 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * I always copy my post in case there is an edit conflict. If there is, I just post in the place/year I was going to be posting in. :) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:20, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * The proper thing to do is copy your whole post before you hit publish. Paste if necessary. If you conducted diplomacy, things can get a little messy. Never copy an entire year.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  16:48, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Malta
I was wondering if I could play as the nation of Malta. I didn't see it in the nations list, but I noticed no one had conquered the islands in recent years. Is it alright if I sign up as them? Mscoree (talk) 17:41, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

It's not even on the map. As far as I know, either Cyprus or Italy owns it.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  18:13, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Before I made my post I searched through some of the archives. I noticed that Italy had attacked the islands but withdrew, and I noticed that Napoleon never invaded the islands, therefore the Sovereign Military Order of Malta would still be in power. Mscoree (talk) 18:58, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, in this timeline, Malta was only briefly independent, as a pirate-controlled state, but it was quickly annexed by Venice and is under Venetian control to this day.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:05, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe this was sometime in the early 1500s. Also, we never had Napoleon, just two counterparts.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:13, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1576, in fact.Right after the Caliphate fell.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:30, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind then. Thanks. Mscoree (talk) 21:44, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Imperium Africana
Total: 85
 * Location: +2 (Ethiopia 1, Germanica 3, Neu Berlin 2, Neu Prussen 2, Maharajya 1, Rajputana 1)
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Kenya (M), Eritrea (M), Borona (M), Adal (MV), Warsangali (MV), Normandy (MV), Oyo (MV), Benin (MV), Yorubaland (MV), Beja (MV), Darfur (MV), Kitara (MV), Majeerteen Sultanate (MV), Ajuuraan Sultanate (MV), Germanica (L), Neu Berlin (L), Neu Prussen (L), Georgia (L), Chimu (M), Mysore (M), Orientalia (M), United Maharajya (L), Rajputana (L), Dahod (MV), Nepal (MV), Bhutan (MV), Mataram (M), Brunei (M), Naya Bihar (M), Sulwasi (MV) = 85/32 = +3
 * Military Development: 16/16 = +1
 * Economy: 14/14 = +1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: +3 + 7 + 7 + 3 + 3 + 3 = +26
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit Count: 3,050
 * UTC Time: 09:42 = 72
 * 72/3050*pi=0.0741621872322885
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +29 (355,587,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Great Brython
Total: 39
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Great Brython (L), Hobyo-Somalia (MV), Morocco (MV), Welsh Royal Coast (MV), New South Wales (MV), Oldeburg (MV), Liege (MV), Cleves (MV), West Munster (MV), Luxembourg (MV), Netherlands (L), Indonesia (MV), Kongo (MV), Warqama (MV) = 32/85 = 0
 * Military Development: 16/16 = +1
 * Economy: 14/14 = +1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 4
 * Motive: +10
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +8 (35,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
((86/(39+86)*2)-1 = 0.376 = 37.60%

37.60*(1-1/(2*5)) = 33.84

The Ethio-Aryan-German alliance destroys Great Brython. They can topple the Brythonic government if the war lasts for five years.

Discussion
LoL. Anyway since I'm not really around, some else really needs to keep Viva in check or else... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:09, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't worry. I've already nominated myself for the job. XD [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:12, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should treat Great Brhyton's chances as a NPC, as Reximus won't answer until 1814, at least, and we can't have wars with inconclusive results for four years, after all, when this happens, the war drags out for 10 years or so.Or it would be more plausible to make this war drag on?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:49, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why that's necessary. He has development for the last fifteen years, save for the few days that he has been blocked so far.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:53, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

What a surprise to see you two here. I just got back here to change the algo when I read the blog. I suspect Rex won't be around for a while. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:06, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Collie has a point. While he does have development for the last fifteen years, though, we could still expand his military/economy/all that good stuff as if he became an NPC on whatever day he was banned, which was the 24th or 25th. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 22:05, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Can I assume it's too late for other countries to join? Callumthered (talk) 23:27, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry man, Viva was quick with the Algo. XD [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:49, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dang. Well, I'll just have to hope that Brandenburg will trade Oldenburg for Khmer Koch or something (God damn Rex nd his banning! Oldenburg could have been mine years ago!). Callumthered (talk) 23:54, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Added my proposal to the chances.After all, they need one, and i am not surprised that you conveniently forgot the chance.I also adjusted the length of the war with the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:24, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Fifteen years? What kind of BS is this?!

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:10, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

It was incomplete.And, that was the truth.on that score it really would take 15 or 16 years to topple their government.Which was fitting, i mean, you are fighting a world power, and all...again, you left out his chance.And, Where is this Neu Preussen?I don't think it deserves a four, as it would have to be in Europe (Last time i checked it was in the Caribbean) for that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:38, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is. There's a Welsh colony right next to it.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:41, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think the Distance is taken in consideration from the capital distance to the frontline. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:09, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly.The Caribbean isn't a frontline.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:15, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * For Neu Prussen it is. There are several front lines in a war. Any area directly attacked is a frontline.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:30, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I fit was so, nearly every nation involved then would get a five in location, as Ethiopia borders Hobyo-Somalia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:21, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Claims
Since Rex is gone for a while, and we've clearly won a smashing victory, I think it proper to begin claim the lands of this vanquished foe. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:20, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ethiopia - Great Britain (England and Scotland), Brittany, Welsh Greenland, Ireland, Welsh Australia, Warqama (just taking that back) and Hobyo Somalia. Germany can have Wales. All of Wales Southeast Asian territories.
 * Germanica - Greenland, Ireland, Wales, Welsh Carribean, all of Welsh North Africa, Welsh Carribean, former Dutch European land.
 * Orissa - New Zealand, All of Welsh South America, and Kongo. Claiming for Mataram is the Welsh colony/puppet on Sumendang. As well as this the pretty self explainatory outpost in Bengal is also claimed.

Claim Discussion
Okay, I've ceded Welsh South America to Imp along with Kongo, and Wales is Scraw's. If there are no more claims to be made, then I shall call the wonderful little meeting to a close. We are adjured. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:43, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Sure. Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:45, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I would like to take this opportunity to point out an implausibility (which is not limited to this war). In the 1700s and 1800s otl, when a nation was defeated, it was very unusual for the entire home nation to be taken. Let's take France as an example. After they lost the Seven Year's War, they lost little to no territory in Europe, but lost basically all their colonies. After the Napoleonic Wars, France merely lost all the land it had gained throughout the wars. The nation-state of France remained intact. Again, after its defeat in the Franco-Prussian War, the Prussians/Germans did not annex all of France: just Alasce Lorraine. Even after the Nazis were defeated, Germany was not (permanently) occupied by the Allies, and at least West Germany was allowed to be independent. My point is, regardless of the Agorithm, it is implausible by this stage for an entire home nation to be annexed. Colonies, sure, it's only natural. Parts of the main nation, sure. But the entire country and all its colonies? I'm really not so sure. (Note how I don't say that it's implausible for Ethiopia to gain land in Europe, or for it to gain colonies.) Callumthered (talk) 23:52, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I say that Ireland or Scotland should receive independent. Also, Wales has a larger population than Normandy--easier to rebel. I wanted England, mainly because they're Germanic, like me.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:59, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

I'm just going to invade them later. I'd rather fight for them then let them slip away. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:02, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

But Viva, what exactly do you gain from Ireland or Scotland? Having an outpost in Europe, I can understand. But...these aren't the most useful places on Earth. Regardless, they aren't the actual home territory of Wales. Really, if part of Wales was to remain as a rump state, it would be otl Wales. Brandenburg could still get the "Germanic" English, and Ethiopia can still get their Northern paradises, whilst the Welsh retain their national homeland. It's a win for the coalition, a (sort of) win for the Welsh people, and a win for plausibility. Callumthered (talk) 00:20, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm with Callum.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:26, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I don't gain anything from either. I just want them, just like I wanted the other territories. The Scots and the Irsh can talk about being free and whatever, and them being a part of Wales proper doesn't matter at all (since they've been thoroughly defeated), it simply won't stop me from steam-rolling them now or later. And you seem to forget that Rome, Germany and Britain managed to take over huge swathes of territory relatively quickly. Rome fell after numerous invasions over a one thousand year period; Germany after a coalition of nations defeated them (Wales being the case here), and Britain after its overstretched empire could no longer be controlled. I will cede Wales to Scraw, but I fought for and won Great Britain and Ireland, and I expect to get my winnings over the next five years. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:10, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and on the topic of gains, you could probably ask the same question of Denmark, wanting a worthless piece of land known as Greenland, or Britain and its rabit desire to keep the equally worthless Falklands (taking them in the early 1800s by the way). What of the numerous nations who fought over the Pacific Islands, which possessed no useful resources at all? This took took place before the age of coal, which means their usefulness as recoaling stations was non-existant. I gain potatos and redheads from Ireland and lots shipbuilding in Scotland. There. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:14, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Strange how the examples you gave (Rome, Germany and Britain (which was, in itself, a strange choice)) are not in the time period we are talking about and in Rome's case was over a thousand years before the time we are currently talking about. Here is a fact: in the 18th and 19th and (to some extent) 20th centuries, when "civilised" nations went to war, they did not take the entirety of the main country. Even Nazi Germany created puppet governments giving the locals some semblance of retaining power (not that the Nazis were civilised).

The examples of Greenland and the Falklands have nothing to do with our discussion. They were practically uninhabited outposts and were not the main, homeland territory  of any nation. Your "example" of Britain "falling" after it overstretched its empire is, well, laughable. Sure the overseas empire crumbled, but  the main nation survived  which is my point. And just quietly, with regards to the Pacific Islands, did you not consider Guano? Or (because by the time they were fighting over them, this was an issue) coaling bases?

Let's assume, however, that you do (implausibly) annex all of Britain. There is going to be massive resentment. Brtain had a decent (and patriotic and nationalistic) population by this point and there would be constant minor rebellions, uprisings and strikes. Think Ireland otl but multiplied to early-industrial British size. Your population in Ethiopia is going to get slightly sick of the endless bloody repressions and reprisals your military will have to engage in to keep the locals in check. And your population will see that, despite their European race, the Welsh are a civilised people with industry, not some uncivilised primitives like those in your other colonies. Annexing Britain would be more trouble than it is worth.

Let me stress again that taking Welsh colonies makes sense and is the most plausible thing to do. However "steamrolling" over the main nation of Wales is implausible and will do you more harm than good. Take Cornwall, take part of Scotland or Ireland. But annexing the Welsh heartlands/all of the British Isles is implausible and will in the long run be harmful for you.

And you'd get more redheads from Scotland than Ireland. Callumthered (talk) 03:26, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I forget where my redhards are. Anyway, let's begin the long and difficult road of explanations. On your first point, since time period matters, let us discuss Caucausia. The Russians were notorious for booting the native population off of their lands, and wiping out resistance wherever it was. They annexed the entirety of the nation that resided there (the Caucausian Emirate), and did so with many other nations that were in Central Asia and Siberia as well. As for the Brits, they were notorious for taking over huge empires such as the Ashanti Empire and the Zulu Kingdom, as well as taking huge swath (albeit not all of) India. Look at the OTL Scramble for Africa, which the game is now entering. Huge pieces of land (such as Somalia, East Africa and Nigeria) were all home to huge empires which put up decent fights before being conquered.

As for my "laughable" statement on Britain being overstretched, look up your info (as I did when Scraw attempted to justify his oversized military in AvA2). Britain was overstretched. In fact, during nearly all conflicts Britain was engaged in, it had to juggle which colonies to defend and which to let go of until it could return to liberate them. Overall, Britain had a massive military force, its just that it was poorly placed and disproportionately so. Most of its soldiers came from India, and most of the equipment from the home isles. It took huge amounts of money to get these into the right places, and even so, it could only do so with a few areas (Egypt, India and Britain). Need I remind you of the Suez Crisis? Right after that, it was shown that Britain could no longer sustain its empire, and with that, it collapsed. Over a 10-20 year period (ten years if you really think about it), the entirety of the once mighty British Empire was reduced to a few scragglely islands and a funky near Argentina.

Now back to the point. As was the case in OTL Ethiopia during the Italian invasion, patriotism and nationalism don't protect you from a determined foe. All of Ethiopia was conquered by Italy, and though it only ever controlled a third of the country totally at any given time, that was only because the nation was so huge. However, whenever the patriotic Ethiopians turned up to fight, they got stomped. Patriotism gets you numbers (lots of willing recruits), not victories (no well-trained or equipped recruits). Only thing it does is annoy your enemy, and as has been the case in ever attempt to rebel, it either 1) Gets them to drop the colony let a rock and move on to better targets (OTL Britain dumped America for India), or 2) Gear up and raze every city, house and dog in the neighborhood (look at Norway, it had the longest uprising under Nazi Germany; two weeks). Look at France in Algeria. It only left when the people wanted their money spent elsewhere instead of the costly won. Look at Iraq, the United States didn't live because it lost. It left because the won cost to stinkin' much. A government that hits heavily and brutally wins a won such as that (OTL Boer Wars which literally broke the fighting will of the Afrikaners). OTL Kenya didn't break away because it won a war of independence, it did so because the fight against the Mau Mau was making the British look bad.

Now, as for war fatigue. This is the Age of Imperialism. War fatigue is a myth right now. The people want a war because it proves they are the best, they feel its their job to uplift the other nation, and they want the biggest empire on the block. Bloody reprisals are considered worth the investment, and the people aren't impartial when it comes to concentration camps (OTL South Africa for example). Next, you need to remember that Ethiopia is an African nation. Different culture and society. As has been the case throughout their history, war isn't considered much of a drain there. Society puts emphizes on never givingup (which is why they fought so hard ever when they were losing). Perfect example. Ethiopia was chasing the Italians out of the nation in 1895 and had no intentions on stopping. The only reason they did stopped was because they were going through a famine and couldn't maintain the momenteum as they needed food for the men and horses. The Ashanti, it took the razing of nearly all their cities to stop them from fighting. The Zulu didn't stop fighting until it became appearent it was totally pointless fighting the more numerous British.

Now you keep saying "implausible" "implausible", but you never say why. I'm ahead of Wales on the industrialization chart, and I had many many many more people to fund any war effort or die fighting for the "glorious empire". Was it implausible for the British to take over India with their tiny yet advanced armies? It took many decades, but the people didn't buckle under the cost or loss of life. Ethiopia is larger and more powerful than Wales, so I don't see how it would be implausible to conquer the entire nation. Its one more industrialized nation fighting a smaller and less industrialized nation. Me taking over an island with a population one sixth that of Ethiopia's is implausible? Nevermind the fact that Ethiopia has many millions of loyal citizens, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, hundreds of warships, and a culture that isn't afraid of a little decimation, but Britain having a highly patriotic population is going to prevent me from taking over? I'll reiterate: war weariness was not a major issue at the time. Cost was. Cost pushed the Soviets out of Afghanistan, America out of Iraq and Britain out of nearly all of its colonies.

I'm sorry about the text wall (its a thing), but you've stated as the sole basis of your argument, that patriotism (which historically has never won any wars), war weariness (which only truly took hold of nations after World War II), and implausibility (for which you have not explained why), will force the massive colonial empire that has only been engaged in two major wars over the last one hundred years, is incapable of conquering the tiny island nation with a population of 15 million? The Indians were equally patriotic, still didn't defeat the Brits. They were very numerous, with a population of 225 million. Still didn't beat the Brits. They were partially industrialized and even had a blue water navy. Still didn't beat the Brits. Recap. Britain: 15 million people, a military of 200,000 (at its post-Napoleonic height), and a navy of a thousand ships. India: 225 million people, several millions of professional warriors and soldiers, and a navy of several thousands of ships. Hmm. See a problem with that assessment? Once again I'm very sorry for the text wall. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:25, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Also, please don't think I'm being disagreeable. I'm just trying to take what I've earned in the war. The colonies are nice, but I fought for, won and now want the British Isles (I mean seriously, that's literally the only reason I fought this stupid war). I have Normany right next to it, and Yoruabaland, Oyo and Benin not to far away either. I don't see how keeping to population in line is going to be difficult. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:37, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Guys, guys, guys, tl;dr overload! Both of you are semi right, but we're going to act like this never happened. Court adjourned.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  05:02, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

No, Viva, I am basing my argument on the fact  that when civilised countries went to war with each other at this time, they  did not  take the entire main nation. Seeing as Ethiopia and Wales are/were on basically the same scale of "civilisation" they would simply not do it. Sure, you have the manpower to take them. But it was not the done thing. And if you are the civilised nation you aseem to be, you would accept that. But it's not just you; I think Wales' annexation of the Netherlands was wrong too.

And I said that your claim that  Britain  (as in the nation on the British isles) "fell" was laughable. Britain is, last time I checked, still a sovereign nation. The same one which (as I myself said) lost its empire. Almost like, say, Wales losing its empire but remaining a rump state.

Your point about India is a good one. however you fail to recognise that the British did, at least at first, keep the indigenous government structures through their use of the princes. And you also do not take into account the sheer length of time and the number of wars required to subjugate India. It took the Brits years of weaseling in with the local princes, then a war or two or five with a prince who wouldn't accept their rule. And also, India had stuff worth fighting for. Britain is nice, but nowhere near as valuable as India.

I do not think you are being disagreeable, and I hope you do not think I am. As you know, my nation has nothing to gain from you gaining or not gaining Britain. However I am pointing out what I see as a problem which has started to occur with more regularity in this game and which I think takes away from its plausibility. (I'm done now Scraw) Callumthered (talk) 06:09, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Understood. Though I am well read on the subject of the "princely states" permitted by the British to rule over portions of India (such as Hyderabad). I see Britain as a strategic holding, so that's why I'm interested in holding it. As far as that is concerned, I believe you have a valid point on the rest of the matter. I guess we're done here then. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 07:55, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

If by Sumedang you mean that country on Borneo, I think that blue country on Borneo is actually Bavaria, not Wales.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:21, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think Sumedang is what the Dutch used to call Aceh-Padang. I might be wrong.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  16:43, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Also, we forgot the Dutch Texas colony. I'll take that, as I'm closest to it.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:12, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well then, if that is the case, then I'll take Dutch Puerto Rico then, along with the Welsh islands east of Madagascar and east of Puerto Rico. I didn't even notice it was there until I looked for that Texan colony. Though I'm not sure if that belongs to Cyprus or not. Doesn't matter, I'll just hold onto it until told otherwise. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:54, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I meant Sundabang. Sundabang. Sorry. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:19, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I thought Puerto Rico was mine. Hence all Carribean territory.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:15, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

One thing, The texas colony was sold by the Welsh to the Russian Antilian independentist, But like Part of carthage it hasn't been added to the map yet, I know cause i also tried to buy it. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:01, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

I guess it is yours then Scraw. I didn't see that claim originally. My bad. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:55, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

No worries.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  06:14, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Anyone want Mauritius? I'm going for Reunion.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  06:32, September 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll take them. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 06:54, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, have both.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  06:56, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I already claimed them both dudes. Remember: "...along with the Welsh islands east of Madagascar (i.e. Reunion and Mauritius." Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:37, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. Ah.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  18:47, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Map Contest Crossover
That's right, the Map Contest this week is based on Principia Moderni II! Anyone who is interested can go to the Map Contest page to participate. CourageousLife (talk) 20:27, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

Time to see what people's motives are in the game and if they plan on touching my shit *reads* CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 22:03, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

XD I made you and Russia my long time allies and then Cold War enemy.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:35, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * And did you tell him what you did to me? *glares* CourageousLife (talk) 22:48, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * XD sorry. I tried to place one counternation on each continent, and you were the only major nation on the Antillian continent. Look at the map, you didn't even lose any land.
 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:07, August 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * :P I know CourageousLife (talk) 00:28, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Dean's inactivity and the UKA
Alrigh...I gave Deansims my Antillian Colonies(technicaly I gave him a movement...but whatever). I did so under the assumption that he will actualy play as them...so far this is not happening, the last time he posted as the "United Kingdom of Antillia" was in 1799. I assumed Dean will play as Antillia, expanding them, conducting diplomacy I neglected to so their position would be of more use. Obviously he has not done so(due to his last post being about 2 weeks ago. I am henceforth taking them back under my control, untill such a time when he actualy wants to play as them...-Lx (leave me a message) 03:50, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

No objection.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  06:13, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead. CourageousLife (talk) 15:43, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

I second this motion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:47, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

i was playing as them and expanding BUT NO ONE WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE MY MAP UPDATES AND EXPANSION OR EVEN RECOGNIZE MY INDEPENDANCE. Sorry caps lock. And whats the point if whatever you do is ignored? DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 17:08, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria
Total:58
 * Location: +5 (Suddeutches Reich 5)
 * Tactical Advantage: +5
 * Strength: Bavaria (L +4),Saxony (L +4), Bavarian Tyrol(MV +2)= 2
 * Military Development: 12/3 = 4
 * Economy: 14/3 = 5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: 4
 * Editcount: 1448
 * Time:03:36
 * 1448/54 x pi = 84.2412252
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +18
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

The Swiss Failures
Total: 33
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength:Switzerland (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 2
 * Editcount: 807
 * Time: 1:25
 * 807/10 x pi = 253,526527
 * Motive: +3
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
58/(58=33)*2-1 = 0.2747

Disscussion
Ok, wtf happened, I've been buried in University work, just to log on and find a tiny fly speck attack me? Very well then. Since I didn't start this war idk how to figure chance, and I AM SO not filling out the Swiss side.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 03:51, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

XD what a stupid move. Anyways, attackers can't get +10 motive, so I took it off from the Swiss side.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:53, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks lolTrust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 03:57, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Adding chance and other numbers.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:07, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Switzerland is the attacker. No infrastructure for them.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  19:13, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Forgot about that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:54, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Italia is sending supplies to my war see 1814 postTrust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 15:35, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

So when is this thrashing of a war ending, and what can the result be? Callumthered (talk) 11:09, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Apostolic Prime Bishop Election
Candidates: Brother Patrick (Irish but controlling Welsh order, controlled by Wales aka Scraw), (add others if desired)

Votes:

Selk'nam (Commandante Lemming): Brother Patrick Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:17, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Tojiko (Kogasa): Brother Patrick

Wales (Scraw): Brother Patrick (Scraw) 21:21, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Britain (Viva): Brother Fassil Mekonen (don't know if I'm suppose to add a candidate from Britain or vote for Patty McPatrick)  Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:14, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Coalition for Freedom

 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Germanica (L), Chimu (L), Orientalia (L), Neu Berlin (M), Neu Prussen (M), Mysore (M), Georgia (M), Walisisch Reichskommissariat (MV), Maroko (M), China (L), Manchuria (L), Korea (L), Empire of Vietnam (L), Tibet (MV), Badakhstan (MV), Laos (MV), Bone (MV), Formosa (MV), France (LW), Aquitane (MVW), Picardy (MV), Lorraine (MVW), Angouleme (MVW), Carthage (MVW), Toulouse (MVW), Tyrol (MVW), Neu Judea (MVW), Haut Bourgogne (MVW), Basse Bourgogne (MVW), Leptis (MVW), Numidia (MVW), Occitania (MVW), La Marche (MVW), Zululand (MVW), Musicas (MVW), Basotho (MVW), Venaissin (MVW), Myanmmar (L), Italia (M), Mayan Empire (L), Zapotec (L), Madura (MV), North Maori (MV) = 101/50 = 2
 * Military Development: 24/20 = +1
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +7 +7 +7 +5 +5 +5 +5 +5 +5 +5= +56
 * Chance: +1
 * Time: 1:10 = 1
 * Edit count: 6809
 * 1/6809*pi = 4.613.....
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +11 (428,000,000 - China, Germany, Maya)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -7
 * Total: 87

Imperium Africana

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Kenya (L), Eritrea (L), Borona (L), Normandy (L), Adal (L), Warsangali (MV), Oyo (MV), Benin (MV), Yorubaland (MV), Beja (MV), Darfur (MV), Kitara (MV), Brittany (MV), Hobyo Somalia (MV), Warqama (MV)  England (MV), Scotland (MV), Ireland (MV)= 50/97 = .515= 0
 * Military Development: 20/24 = 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +10
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +5 +5 +5 +5 +5 +5 = +30
 * Chance: +6
 * Time: 21:29 = 36
 * Edit count: 3,128
 * 36/3,128*pi=0.0361564371896547
 * Population: +9 (132,000,000 - Ethiopia proper and leaders)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -10
 * Total:61

Result
Coalition victory. The coalition gets to claim 17.5% ((87+61)*2)-1. If the war lasts for 5 years, the coalition gets 15.65% of Ethiopia's territory. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 20:20, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Yep. Good as done. Crim and I will divvy up the land later. Don't worry Viva, we'll leave part of mainland Ethiopia intact for you! No, everyone else may not join.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:31, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

So that was your plan. Right. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:36, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Quite so.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:27, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the algorithim since you either broke it or refused to use the right numbers. I broke Great Brython into vassals in the game, so you missed that. I have Brittany and Hobyo, so you missed that. I have infrastructure points as defender, so you missed that. And I'm fighting for the survival of the empire (as are the dominions), so you missed that as well. You jacked up the algorithim. Oh, and the royal court is in Addis Ababa, which is one of the highest capitals in the world. You missed that as well. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:36, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well OK then, you add your leaders. The main target of this war is England, which I assumed was a colony. So +5 motive.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:44, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

20/23 gives you 0 in military, Ethiopia gets -5 penalty for five years as a leader in the Welsh War, all your Dominions get -1 for military aid in the Welsh War.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:46, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

You round up from the points you get. Since I got 0.8, that counts as one, unless someone forget to teach you math. And I don't get five points since I only have three dominions. Plus, I'm fighting for national survival, since the empire is my nation. So that's ten points you just took away. If you really want me to be generous, I can lower it to +7 since I'm fighting for the safety of the minority Ethiopian population in Britain and Ireland, and those in the lands your trying to take, since as the homeland, its my duty to protect them. And since they since military aid in one war in the last 15 years, they only get one point each. Not two. Nice try though. That reminds of something, I'm fighting to defend my people in Britain, and your trying to remove them. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:52, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Riiiiiiiiiight, you just demonstrate your lack of an ability to comprehend. Allow me to quote myself.

Ethiopia gets -5 penalty for five years as a leader in the Welsh War

Any war you were a leader in within the last 15 years means -1 for each year spent as a leader.

Also I ' distinctly said that the Dominions each get -1. '

"all your Dominions get -1 for military aid in the Welsh War."

Also no one is attacking your main nation. I'm attacking England. +10 is LIFE OR DEATH. Do you understand the meaning of LIFE OR DEATH? I think not.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:57, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Also another flaw in your argument:

"You round up from the points you get. Since I got 0.8, that counts as one, unless someone forget to teach you math."

Read the rules. That's not how the algorithm works, Mr. Smart Aleck.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:59, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Also I'm fighting to FREE my oppressed brothers in England. You're fighting to PROTECT your people and land. +5.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:01, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hold on while I collect my evidence against you. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:09, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, China and France are ancient, with both having been around for the last 400-1000 years without any government change. So that gives you -10 points. Ethiopia's last government change was about 250 years ago. The great equalizer age is, no? Borona is fighting for its survival as you are actively trying to conquer it. +10 points. Ethiopia is trying to defend its people in Great Britain, as in your own words, your trying to "liberate" the nation, which has Ethiopians who just conquered inside. So they have no confidence you'll protect them from the angry locals. +7 points. Kenya and Eritrea are trying to aid them as well as dominions, so now thats +14 points. So since Ethiopia and two of its vassals are fighting to protect their own, and not the land you wanted, they now had to defending the minority population in England. So because you voiced your intentions ingame and on the talk page, I now have +31 points instead of the +25 I was trying to get. Thank you.

Recap:


 * China and France are old nations: -10 points


 * Ethiopia, Kenya and Eritrea are fighting to protect the Ethiopian minority in Britain from potential genocide: +21 points

Thank you for handing me the victory Scraw. Couldn't have done it without you. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:22, September 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Borona is the target of Chinese conquest: +10 points

France is not ancient. France became constitutional in the mid 1600s. I am attacking only your vassal in Great Britain and China is attacking your colony in Alaska. We  NEVER  targeted Borona, unless you call England Borona.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:28, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

And China isn't ancient either. Dynasty change. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 03:33, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, since I nor Ethiopia trust you, its open season. And you spoke openly of leaving me nothing but Ethiopia proper. So I don't know how you can explain that and say your only going after one nation. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:51, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Since we haven't attacked those areas yet, you can't say that. You're creating a paradox. Ever see Minority Report?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  04:01, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Its not a paradox. Ethiopians elsewhere in the empire fear that the conquering Ethiopians may be subjected to cruelty for whatever exposed actions they commited in Britain, and as a result, they don't want to see them harmed and are fighting to protect them from retribution. People of the 1800s weren't exactly know for their compassion, especially toward those of "colored" skin. Plus you stated that it was for racism, so the Ethiopians fear genocide (ever heard of what happened as a result of Nat Turner's rebellion). As for Minority Report, I think I've heared of it, but never saw it. Should I care? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:18, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

It is a paradox. If you know your future, you can change it. We're not going to commit genocide, we're trying to help free your stupid people from the oppression. Racism is a minor thing ATL, but you seem to have turned it on its head by discriminating against the English. You can't create some BS motive based on your predictions. Also you should watch Minority Report. It actually sums up the whole thing you're saying here about your motive.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  04:22, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hah! I didn't say that was going to happen. I said explictly that they thought it was going to happen. You (Germany) made race an issue, and in the past, you as well as other players said that race was an issue. So I'm not coming up with any of this. I'm only making it clear that it was you, not me, that stated as much. Also, given that the Ethiopians haven't exactly been kind toward the Brits, my people suspect actions against them, not for racial reasons, but for the fact that we were conquerers and they were victims. The fact that they they masscured fellow Europeans for the same reasons means that they wouldn't think twice about it if they were Ethiopian. And finally, you and Cal stated that the British were highly patriotic, so they would do anything for the homeland to free it. So if they will do anything to free it, I won't write it off that they may do something else as well. So I can't read the minds of the British people, and I can't change what the Ethiopians feel. The Ethiopians feel they may be subject to violent and vicious crimes, and you were the ones that enforced that by stating that race, nation and belief would be factors in that. Do I need to tell you what the Afghans, Iraqi and Somalis did to Americans they captured during wartime? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:27, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Stop creating oxy morons, dammit!

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  04:30, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

What? Its what I do best. It doesn't really matter anyway. Even with your puppets, you still can't beat me. You got the population wrong. And in order to get the +10 bonus, it needs to be 5-to-1, its only 4-to-1. That means you only get +2 points instead. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:06, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

How are you getting help from Ireland and Britain? You just took them over. There isn't a chance in hell that their militaries are loyal. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 17:06, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Just letting you know that the last WC was me. And and as it stands the Germans get 22%. Yank 17:32, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Good enough for me.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:57, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Would someone be so kind as to add me to the algorithm? CourageousLife (talk) 20:43, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Can I get a list of vassals?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:46, September 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * For right now, it's just me, Zapotec, North Maori, and Madura. I'm not forcing the Apache to join unless he wants to. You can add me as a leader, though. CourageousLife (talk) 20:55, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Its currently 14%, not 22. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:49, September 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Still not a problem with me!


 * <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:43, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm getting help since I established governments there and set up militia made of traitor Brits and Scots. I'm sure I mentioned that in the last three turns. So you can't exactly cross them out. Germany got the French on his side even though he had just invaded him. Take that in contrast to the Princely States of India that served the British immediately after being defeated. As history has shown, puppet governments are set up almost immediately after an invasion. Also, your nations only get +5 since the Germanic people of Great Britain aren't the minority. The Ethiopians are. " Social/Moral Kinsmen: Fighting for social/moral reasons to help a <u style="font-style:inherit;line-height:20px;">minority of your nation's <u style="font-style:inherit;line-height:20px;">main ethnicity/race in another nation= +7" This in contrast too: "S ocial/Moral Friend: Fighting for social/moral reasons to help an ethnicity/race in the nation= +5" So you can't get that bonus. That and the obvious fact that the Chinese aren't related to the Germans. So how they got a +7 bonus is beyond me. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:00, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

I did not just invade Frnace.....also, you keep contradicting myself. Allow me to requote:

Social/Moral Kinsmen: Fighting for social/moral reasons to help a  minority  of your nation's  main ethnicity/race  in another nation= +7

See that? Minority of YOUR nation's main ethnicity/race. YOUR in this case applies to my nation. My main ethnicity/race is Germanic. A minority of my nation's main ethnicity/race can be Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian, Flemish, West Germanic, Teutonic, etc. You have Anglo-Saxons in your nation, which are a minority of my majority. +7. You didn't object when we were fighting Wales, you hypocrite.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:43, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

You've contridicted youself again Scraw. You based your entire arguement on saving the  Germanic people . You said nothing of Anglo-Saxons. Your cheating to be honest. Your using a very broad and open term to gain a number of points that you shouldn't have. I think when they said race or ethnicity (and not ethnolignustic groups), they meant helping GERMANS and not ANGLO-SAXONS. They are Germanic in the sense that they speak Germanic languages. Race wise, they are not German anymore than they are Teuton. And I didn't say anything about the Welsh, moron. There with Ethiopians in Warqama, New Zealand, and Cambodia (Welsh territory). I was fighting for my people as the maps before 1720 can show you. So no, you don't get +7. To quote Wikipedia: "The Germanic peoples (also called Teutonic, Suebian or Gothic in older literature) are[1] an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group of Northern European origin, identified by their use of the Germanic languages which diversified out of Proto-Germanic starting during the Pre-Roman Iron Age." The definition of Ethnolinguistics: "the branch of linguistics concerned with the relations between linguistic and cultural behavior." They speak a branch of a branch of your language, but they aren't a member of the immediate German race. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:50, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

By that same flawed logic you get+5 as well. Anglo-Saxons are part of the Germanic race.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:57, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Under no flawed logic since the same Ethiopians in Britain are the same ones in Ethiopia. In fact, I transported them there from Ethiopia. So nothing you can say about that. +7. Your fighting for a subrace, I'm fighting for the main race. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:14, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

You sound like a noob. Defending your own race goes into +5. Here I was thinking you understood the game.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:15, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Defending your race which is a minority in another country gets you +7. Defending a race that isn't a minority gets you +5. Your exploiting a vaguely described rule to gain additional points (Mainland Germans fighting to defending Anglo-Saxons that are loosely connected through ancient ties). I'm using a clear-cut example of the rule (Ethiopians at home fighting to defend a small group of Ethiopians in Britain) to get +7. It doesn't even matter, even without the motive, you still lose. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:20, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

In what crazy backwards universe that you live in that you expect four of the world's foremost powers with aid from a superpower will be defeated by one nation and its worldwide empire?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:32, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Yo, my motive is +7. Wales and I were coming closer in Kappelism before they got taken out. They saved religious texts written in Mayan from the Isles. CourageousLife (talk) 22:36, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw, I'm not saying it, the algo is saying it. The algo says your two points short, and it also says that your tyraid of nations only got +2 points in the members section. So this is the same world that your trying to use to win. I didn't make it, the mods did. And Courage, Wales is owned by Scraw, you'd need to be fighting a nation that was increasingly discriminating against a minority of your religion. I wasn't targetting Kappelians, and had a deal not to harm them. So you don't necessarily get +7. " Religious: Fighting for your nation's dominant religion, against a nation which is  severely  increasing   discrimination, <u style="font-style:inherit;line-height:20px;"> increasingly   restricting access to or damaging holy sites, brutally opposing conversion attempts, or has recently changed its religion/denomination= +7" Ethiopia hasn't done any of those things. And since your Mayan, your not fighting for a minority of your nation, but of another nation. So at best, you get +5. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:42, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Recently changed its denomination. You changed the denomination of the government that rules Britain from an Apostolic/Kappelist one to an Orthodox one.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:46, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw, I just figured something out too. While your nation is related to the British, the British are not your main ethnic group/race. They are Anglo-Saxon, not Teuton (which is the main race of Germany). Adal, Borona and Eritrea are fighting for their nations' main ethnic group, the Ethiopians. So I get +7 on all of them. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:48, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Teutons and Anglo-Saxons are all Germanic......

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:50, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw, I just figured something out too. While your nation is related to the British, the British are not your main ethnic group/race. They are Anglo-Saxon, not Teuton (which is the main race of Germany). Adal, Borona and Eritrea are fighting for their nations' main ethnic group, the Ethiopians. So I get +7 on all of them. Also, Ethiopia doesn't have a state religion, and right before it industrialized, it had freedom of religion. I didn't convert anyone or anything after 1700. So while the government changed, the main/state religion did not. And it doesn't matter what your overarching cultural group is, only your main ethnic group/race. You are German, they are British. Your PRIMARY ethnic group is Teuton, their's is Anglo-Saxon. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:48, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

I am NOT Teuton. Poles are Teutons. Lithuanians are Teutons. Estonians are Teutons. Ukrainians are Teutons. Not Germans. But Teutons are Germanic. All Tetons and Anglo Saxons are Germanic, as are Germans and Flemish.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:56, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Once again, your using a very wide and very broad term to get extra points. The spirit of the rule is that you can fight for a race of your own people, not a group that happens to be related through ancient, read, ancient ties. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:02, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

So now I shall explain very carefully the point issue. Ethiopia and its dominions are fighting to protect the Ethiopian minority in Great Britain. This is a social issue to preserve the Ethiopian population there. Henceforth they all get +7. The Ethiopians have no state religion, and haven't had one for a century. Henceforth the Mayans do not get +7. The Germans and the British are only loosely related, and the spirit of the rules did not mean for the overarching race of the two, but the two as separate peoples. They are related, but ethnically speaking they are distinct and separate. Henceforth you get +5 since your fighting for a race which is not a minority in that country, but you are fighting to protect them on moral ground. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:10, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of what religion they are, your settlers in Great Brython have some kind of religion. Thus the religion of the people of the Isles is threatened. CourageousLife (talk) 23:19, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

My settlers have a religion, but they haven't changed or persecuted the population for their beliefs nor attempted to change the state religion. The rules make it clear that they have to have done that to justify your points. So rule-wise you don't get the +7 for making people think that in-game otherwise it'd be cheating. Anyone could sit here and say "well my people think their religion is threatened" and get +7 for that alone. But they aren't threatened, and weren't threatened, since the Ethiopians have no one religion. They have many. Orthodox just happens to be the largest of them. So since I'm neither persecuting members of other religions, attempting to force them to convert, nor have I changed the state religion, you do not get +7. Feeling threatened is one thing. Actually doing it is another entirely. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:28, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Should be working on the population soon. That's going to be a bitch to find out the populations. Populstat should be a big help in this endeavour lol. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:03, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

I already handled the Populstat deal (which is where I get all my population statistics). Also, Scan added himself and not his vassals for a reason, please do add nations without his permission. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:12, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Also Carthage, Occitania, Picardy  and Zululand declared war against Ethiopia and should be considered leaders as heading points for the fleets of france against Ethiopias holdings beyond their homeland. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:14, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of your vassals, Sine, you've made 15 sucessive non-colonial expansions in the last 15 years. That's 15 penalty points for your entire team. Also, I just realized that I set up dominions (self-governing territories) in Great Britain. And these dominions happen to be fighting for their survival. Thanks for jogging my mind Sine. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:29, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

you do know that i'm unsure if Zululand should be allowed  or carthage to join the war as they are far from the main front. i'm posting to know if they should be. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:41, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. I've won by a landslide thank you very much. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:44, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

You do know that you can't reallistically won by that much, its implausible. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:58, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Are you high? CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 02:24, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

^

Let's let someone who's not handle this.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:25, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Nope. But someone outside is smoking some weed. I think its funny that your mad that I had dominions in Britain before the start of the war and now I'm using them. That's like Iran building a new awesome tank (we know that's not possible but just saying) and getting mad that they are now using them to defend their nation. I legally had the points, and I'm using them to defend England. England is fighting for survival, and Scotland and Ireland (both under military governments), are sending troops and whatever supplies are avaliable to support them. You can't fault me for taking precautions ahead of time. You two are the only major critics, and yet you two are the only ones with so much to lose. Interesting. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:34, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between building a tank and killing the people inside someone else's tank and stealing it. Building a tank would mean you started it and it runs like you know it will. If you stole someone else's tank, you're going to need to know how to shoot and drive the tank so when the original owner's friends come to take it back and you're spinning it in circles, they're going to win. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 02:46, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well in this case, I took over the factory that makes the tanks (hostile takeover), and imported labor from the city I grew up into to run them. The workers and the suppliers were outsourced by my fellow city-folk, and though they aren't many, I still have enough to them to make it hurt the other guy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:48, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

In one year? My foot.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:49, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no goddamn way that your puppet regimes in Britain are secure enough after only a year. That means that you shouldn't have even 66, let alone this 99 bullshit you've pulled out of your ass. Your bull is going to ruin this game for the rest of us, so I request that you change your tune. Yank 03:00, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Here we go again. Its been three years. For three years I've been sending thousands of troops to contain British rebellions. Unlike the US in the 1770s, there are no vast forests that go on forever, no sparse populations and no lands that have plenty of hiding places. This is Britain. A flat little island with a population of 15 million sobs. I just invaded Ireland with 57,000 soldiers, and in the same period, only about 10,000 ever rose up against the British for the same reason. The Ethiopians are just as well-equipped and trained as the OTL Brits, and I've deticated more troops to fighting them. The Brits can revolt, but it wouldn't last long since these are fresh troops in the region. Now, let's use some OTL examples. Britain invaded India, which was 25 times its size land and pop wise. It established princely states in the same period, and had peace and quiet for the next 100 years. This happened in the same period as this war. Heck the "Imperial Century" of Britain began in 1815. Now as for more modern examples. Germany invaded and destroyed France much in the same way I invaded and destroyed England. Yet, Vichy France, Greece, and Romania all supported Germany, the cruel guys that just conquered them, almost immediately after they left. So puppet governments can be set up within a one or two, and there will always be those who may support them. Ever seen "Nazi Collaborators"? Modern examples not doing it for you? Okay. Belgium then. Belgium invaded the Congo, brutalized the people (all in the 1800s), and yet it still had an army of natives fighting for it and admiring it. Plenty of Indians supported the British, and there exist plenty of Brits who support the Ethiopians. Not many, but enough. That doesn't discount the tens of thousands of troops being diverted from crushing rebellions to fending off an invasion under the leadership of the local Ethiopian governments in Britain. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:20, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

So called "Nazi collaborators" only existed because lots of people were fond of Nazism in each country. You think 15 million white people are going to sit there and tolerate a black absolute state?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:24, September 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Absolute black rule? I wasn't aiming for that, and didn't you say race wasn't an issue in PMII? So you've just contridicted yourself. As for the collaborators, one Dutch man who governed the nation for Hitler did so for power, not for Nazism. When the Dutch took control, and he begged Hitler for protection, Hitler refused and he was executed. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:51, September 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * So those armies which the British raised from their newly conquered puppet states were a joke who didn't fight? Might I remind you the Indians didn't like the Brits but still fought becuase it was their job? How are the Welsh and English going to feed their families? By fighting for the Ethiopians and getting payed. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:56, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, that's enough. I'm locking this algorithm. Unless you are a mod, please do not edit this algorithm. Both sides have asked me to do so to ensure a quick end to this screaming match. MOD POWERS ACTIVATE CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 03:49, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

So we cool? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:19, September 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes. Like I was saying in chat, people take this game too seriously, like monopoly. The animosity between everyone OOCly has gotten out of hand. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 16:11, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Really.That Quashi/Hailstormer vs. Rex was an example of this; Rex repeatedly trying to take Quashi out of the game, and then Hailstormer metagaming and wiping out Rex's post.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:13, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that you've missed something important. Ethiopia's algorithm does not include nation age. When this is counted as a factor, all leader territories won in the Wales war recieve a -10, because they were formed less than 5 years ago. I also believe that participation is not just a mere +10, but a +10 for each leader, but I could be wrong on this fact. CourageousLife (talk) 15:16, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Participation counts for the whole coalition. And your algorithim does not include nation age as well. Plus, it would effect your own side as if Ethiopia gets all of the participation bonuses, it still comes out on top. Also, the nation age wouldn't heavily effect Ethiopia as most of the dominions are more than five years old. Plus, you also have a withdrawal penalty as Sine pulled out of the conflict with all but one of his vassals. Oh, and since vassals count as -1 point, that would count as -2 with the withdrawal penalty tacked on. I don't know about the latter, but all I can say is that it'd screw your side up more than me. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:34, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Nation age only counts for leaders. None of our leaders were captured from the Wales war, but 4 of yours were: England, Ireland, Scottland, and Khmer Koch. CourageousLife (talk) 16:09, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Why aren't there any economic scores? Did we forget to do them? CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 16:15, September 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * That and the population needs updating. CourageousLife (talk) 16:19, September 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but without France and Italia's vassals (as Scan did not commit them all), you still fall short of you desired 5:1 ratio to get your bonus. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:23, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

True. But if you use the points that you want, that keeps the war in my favor. Also, whoever added Romania and Scan's vassals need to understand that the man didn't pledge their assistance in-game. Their not a part of the war. As for you Crim, Scraw and Von stated that you can only use one at a time. Don't know what is up with that, but Von was very forceful and clear when he made his point. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:17, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Oh Crim, Zululand cannot serve as a leader as Sine stated that only Picardy would remain in the conflict as a military support (not full-fledged leader). Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:33, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I asked you on chat, but you were AFK lol. Thank you. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 16:35, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Courageous said he wanted Zapotec as a leader as well. Is there a limit on how many leaders can be in the war? CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 16:41, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Technically, there is. You can't just throw in a vassal as a lead unless it is the one declaring war, and even then it still counts as a vassal. There have been allowances for it in the past, but anything like that outside of those few rare allowances would be considered cheating. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:11, September 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then why are all of your vassals getting the perks of being leaders without the penalties? Barring the fact that some were directly declared war upon, you have several vassals listed as leaders. CourageousLife (talk) 21:11, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

I've added all of the proper points. This includes the populations of China, Germany, the Maya and Italy proper. I've done the same for the Ethiopians and the leaders on its side. I added the proper withdrawal points and the number of leader and vassal points that are alloed rule-wise. I only cleaned up the algorithm as best I could. Crim can of course reverse anything. I felt it to be a good place to start. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:20, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Now see here, if you can add vassals and stuff as leaders, so can we. Also Crim's leaders are all in full/personal/dynastic union with China.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  18:25, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  18:25, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

All of those in the leader bracket on my side were dominions. I only added my few dominions in as vassals to prevent them from incurring the penalties of war. Unlike yourself, I just have many more dominions than you. And as the points show, all of his dynasties are involved in the war as leaders, but it doesn't change anything as they already ahve the perks of being leaders. I already went over this with Crim in chat just an hour ago, the issue has been handled. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:30, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Viva, I locked this for a reason. Please don't edit the algorithm. I don't want another screaming match, though what I'm about to say will probably provoke one. Regarding the war, no matter whose side you're on, it's common sense that three world powers with help from a fourth one would take out one world power. Ethiopia and her vassals are outnumbered in almost every aspect. It seems to me that we need a limit on how many vassals can be leaders. Also, there is no logical way for Britain, Scotland, and Ireland to provide much to the fight after their recent capture. Three mods (Yank, Kogasa and I) agree on this thus far. I can understand being bitter over losing an algorithm or whatever because that's natural.

The proposed rule will be in a section I am posting under this war, but until we come to an agreement, Britain, Ireland, and Scotland will be removed as leaders. Again, several mods agree with this decision. This decision was made without bias towards either side in this war. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:30, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

And Khmer Koch is Saxon. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 01:23, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Why do you keep removing the +7 bonus when your attacking a nation where my main ethnic group is a minority? And England and company are puppet governments in the same way Vichy France and the Princely States were. They were set up quickly and contributed to the conflicts immediately. Heck, Vichy France was established the same year France was conquered. The Princely states were established the same way. The British can contribute to the conflict as they are defending themselves as they were the targets of the conflict. So they are not sending troops anywhere, but repelling an invasion on their own soil. Sounds more and more like your cheating and avoiding the fact that the rules discount my being outnumbered. And please explain to me why you removed half of my dominions, but kept all of your own. I'm serious, it seems that everytime you see me winning, you ignore the rules which say I win, and come up with your own to avoid defeat. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:31, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

We aren't ignoring any rules. In fact, we're following the most important rule: plausibility. Several mods checked this and agreed that the British Isles should count for leaders. There's no way they'd make a difference in the war to the same effect that they would when they're not recovering from a hostile takeover. I've told you time and time again why I edited the algorithm. Accusing us of cheating whenever something doesn't go your way is childish. As to why several dominions were removed, that question can be solved by simply reading the two posts above yours. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 04:17, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Right. So, why is it implausible for a puppet nation which is fighting to defend itself? Vichy France had 150,000 soldiers out fighting for Germany the same year it was defeated. Same for Hungary, Romania, Serbia and Croatia. Also, you still haven't explained why you lowered the motive for my nations from +7 to +5. And my actions aren't childish. When I got +7, you came up with excuses as to why it didn't make sense, and gave Scraw +7 when the main ethnic group of Germany wasn't Anglo-Saxon. You broke the spirit of the rules (in that it meant one ethnic group, not the one that belong to a certain branch), just to get +7. You spent absorbent amounts of time trying to find ways to get around the lack of leaders on your side, and simply turned your vassals into dominions. Vietnam and Zapotec were (MV) according to the history. How did they magically become leaders now? Why didn't they become (LV) according to the rules? Ajuuraan Sultanate, and the Majeerteen Sultanate aren't in the algorithm, and their all dominions. Why aren't they leaders? You got rid of my leaders and increased your own. That Crimson, is called cheating. Cheating or at least a gross lack of information. In regards to the unbiased part, I don't not trust Yank. And if you want to talk about being outnumber, Israel was always outnumbered, and yet always managed to win. And I'm not bitter about losing, something I can't understand why you fools can't get through your heads. I'm bitter about the fact that everyone keeps coming up with "special rules" or excuses as to why certain things can and cannot be done. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 13:54, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I did a little background research, and here is my defense. With that, I conclude my case. Gentlemen. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:20, September 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) First point is on the recent wars issue. Ethiopia was the only member of the empire serving as a leader during the Welsh War. Kenya, Eritrea and Borona were the only dominions serving as full military supporters, while I had the others serve as vassals to avoid war penalties (I took a gamble with fewer points). Thus, Ethiopia incurs two penalty points, while the other three incur three as they provided military aid. Scraw, however, has Germanica, Neu Berlin, Neu Prussen, and Georgia (all of whom are in the current conflict) as leaders, while the rest of his dominions served as military supporters. Thus Germany has in fact eleven penalty points instead of the seven shown. (Issue cleared up by Scraw)
 * 2) Ethiopia has fifteen infrastructure points, not ten. The rules stated it goes up to fifteen points, but I hadn't seen that when I posted the points the first time I saw the algorithm.
 * 3) Zapotec and Vietnam were originally vassals in the first redition of the algorithm. I'm not sure why they are leaders now, but it you want them that way, they have to have (LV) instead of (L), unless they were in personal union or dominions before the start of the conflict.
 * 4) Ethiopia, Adal, Kenya, Borona, and Eritrea all have Ethiopian majority populations. Since they are fighting to defend the British Isles which have minority Ethiopian populations, and their stated goal in-game was to defend the Ethiopians living there from the Germans, they should all have +7, not +5 in their motive section. Normandy is only serving as a military base, and since its serving to help the Ethiopians in Britain as part of its war plan, it keeps its +5 (as Ethiopians are a minority there as well). Also, given that England is fighting to defend itself frmo German attempts to flat out annex it, which was the stated in-game and out-of-game intent, English motive should be +10. And as Scotland and Ireland are puppet governments sending troops back to England, and were set up as dominions a year after the invasion, they should count as L, if not at least M, with +5 motive.
 * 5) And the most highly protested part is that of England, Scotland and Ireland serving as leaders. The main argument on the side of Scraw and Crimson is that there is appearent no way for them to contribute to the war. Well what has not been realised, or at least ignored, is the fact that both Scraw and Crimson stated that England was indeed the target of the invasion. As such, the local government I set up there a year after the invasion should serve as a leader in the conflict, as it is not sending troops abroad, and already had several tens of thousands of Ethiopian soldiers on the island for four good years before the start of the conflict. As I stated in-game, 57,000 soldiers had even been sent to Ireland, not from Ethiopia proper, but from Britain itself. After I captured Normandy, I fortified the region, and send 50,000 soldiers their after I won. Over a period of thirty years, it was used as a military base for Ethiopia in the region. When I invaded Britain (which was a long stated goal), the Ethiopians invaded from Normandy, and thus had all of the materiale needed to maintain a long-term government in Great Britain. Implausiblity cannot be called on to dispute a puppet government in Britain, as it had been a longtime tactic of conquerors across history, and these very same pupprt governments sent troops to aid their conquerors immediately after their defeat. Likewise, the Ethiopian government in Britain and its troops that remained after the invasion, have since be augmented by British soldiers that supported the new government, which has been a known case in the past OTL-wise before the invasion, Napoleon being the closest example for those who still wish to dispute this. One need only look at Napoleon's invasion of Russia, where nearly all of his puppet governments sent troops to assist him in the invasion even though they despised him. Of the 554,500 men of the Grand Armée, 254,500 came from the puppet governments, and from the same time period as the conflict now. So you can't dispute a puppet government serving as a major supporter, especially when its the intended target of that invasion.

Ffs, all the Dominions who were leaders in the last war are military aid now and all the Dominions who were military aid the last war are military aid now.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:15, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Right. Then if that is the case, then I shouldn't have a -10 war penalty since only three of my dominions were supporting the war like yourself. Plus, the rules clearly state, according to your own words, that any war you were a leader in in the last fifteen years, is added to the war penalty of the next war within that period of time. Changing their status does not remove the penalty, unless what you said was incorrect, in which case my penalty should be much lower. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:25, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Did you even read the rules page? Let me explain. By these rules, Ethiopia and the three dominions the were leaders in the last Celtic War EACH get -5, for five years spent as a leader. All your other leaders in THIS war each get -1 because they sent military aid to the Welsh War. Easy math.
 * For every nation that is a LEADER in your CURRENT coalition, you go back fiteen years. We shall take Nation X. These following penalties apply:
 * -1 for each war that X was sending military aid to in the last 15 years.
 * -1 for each year that X was a leader within the last 15 years.

As for me, Germanica was L in the Welsh War, and gets a -5. Chimu and Orientalia were M in the Welsh War, and L in this war, so they get -1 each.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:32, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:32, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

A simple yet polite "I think you misunderstand the point" would have been nice. Did your parents not teach you basic manners? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:55, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Er....I don't see which part of that was rude. The entirety of my statement was just clarifying the established rules.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:29, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

The way I read it sounded rude (given the past). Nevermind. Just a point of view. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:36, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Oh. I see.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:57, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

As for Issue #2, I can explain that as well. You can't build up anything during a war. Since Ethiopia had five years of wartime (Welsh War), the maximum infrastructure it can get is 10.

Issue #3: Vietnam is in dynastic union with China, the original MV was a mistake on my part. IDK about Zapotec.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:07, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

For Issue #1, I can and did build up, but not during the war. I built up each and every turn before the war. But your point makes a level of sense as far as I can tell. As for #3, now I understand. However, the same applies to Ethiopia. If you were to look at Ethiopia's territories page (which I update every ten turns), most of Ethiopia's territories are dominions or in personal union with it. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:58, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

So. . . are we gonna close this or what? CourageousLife (talk) 20:27, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Depends. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:16, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

So, we must close this war ASAP. It has dragged on too long and I don't know what to post. If we fight for five years, then we get 15.81% after all the math. If we count all the pixels and multiply by .1581, the freedom coalition gets 17,892 pixels if I am correct. Let the claiming begin.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:30, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

The war hasn't been decided yet, and the algorithm is not yet complete. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:03, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's complete. No one has done anything for the last two days.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

No one has done anything for the last two days because Crim locked the algorithm. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:34, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

The algorithm's looking pretty complete to me. It's time to wrap this up, unless anyone has any objections that haven't been clarified yet. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 17:08, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

The Coalition gets 18% of Eithiopia. Yank 17:51, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * 17.5%. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:52, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I just made my statement of all the issues with the algorithm, and Kogasa never added my dominions to the algorithm I asked about last night. Warsangali, Oyo, Benin, Yorubaland, Beja, Darfur, Kitara, should be (L), and should have +7 as motive as they are defending the Ethiopians of Britain (which Crim and Scraw stated on a number of occasions was the target of their invasion), and all have Ethiopian majority populations (and their in-game declaration was to defend the Ethiopian people living Britain). England should be (M) if not (L), and should have +10 as its motive as Crimson and Scraw stated that that was the dominion they were targetting for conquest (once again as can be found here and in our disscussion in chat). Scotland, Ireland, Brittany, Hobyo Somalia, Warqama are as they should be. Finally, the Ajuuraan and Majeerteen Sultanates are (M), and are missing from the algorithm. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:53, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

You don't just randomly get to make them all leaders. There's an unspoken limit, ya know? Same reason I only have three leaders. Also, no +10 for England, just +5 since we're working mostly for the English population, which is centered in and around the Yorkish lands. England is a vassal regardless, so its gets MV or LV. Where are these Sultanates, how long have they existed, and no, it's not possible for them to not have V.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:13, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't know. I haven't heard of this "unspoken limit". Stating that there is (especially since your not a mod) wouldn't change my decision as the rules and the examples of thoses in the past (Scan, Lx, Von to name a few), have made it clear no such limit exists. I can add them as leaders since they are my dominions and I have that right. My sultanates have existed for nearly a hundred years (I annexed them both after the war with Von), and yes, it is possible for me to add them in the war since they are my territories as much as Neu Berlin and Orientalia are your's. They've been in my previous wars, so I can add them to this one too. Plus, you added all of your dominions and nearly all of you vassals to your war in 1772, so I highly doubt you knew or cared about this "limit" at the time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:37, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Each of my territories was on the defensive in the 1772 war. Germanica (Bavaria, Saxony, Prussia, Netherlands, France, etc), Chimu (Italy), Orientalia (Orissa at first), Mysore (Orissa, later Siam), Georgia (Levant). As well as all the others I added in that one. Also if you read the discussion of that war you'll see me, Lx, Kun, and Von discussing it.

Scraw 03:05, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Am I not on the defensive as well? Is England not the target of your invasion? So why is it not (L) when it is both under attack and a dominion? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:10, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

You can't make a dominion out of it in one year, which you barely even had.

S 03:13, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

And this clearly shows my point. There exist no rule saying that I can't do that. So let's say this; I don't use England as a dominion, I still have seven other vassals I can use. Why can't I add them to the war? And more importantly, if my nation and dominions have stated their fighting to defend the Ethiopian minority in England from foreign aggression, why is my motive +5 when the Ethiopians are the majority ethnic group of my empire? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:27, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Because no one is out to kill Ethiopians as a whole. Or genocide/extermination. We're not Nazis or Stalinists.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:34, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't count. I can still use the motive for the same reason as you. The rule makes it clear that I can " social/moral reasons to help a minority of your nation's main ethnicity/race in another nation". Last I recall, the Ethiopians were in the war to help defend the Ethiopians of Britain. The rule doesn't apply to genocide. The Russians declared war on Austria in WWI to help the Serbs because they were Slavs like themselves. The Austrians weren't planning on any genocide, but the Russians declared their support for the Serbs anyway as one of the main reasons for joining the war (along with wanting to be the protector of Eastern Christians). Same case here. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:40, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

This war is over. The coalition gets 17.5% of Ethiopia's gains. 15.75% if the war lasts for 5 years. I have a headache. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 20:21, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

This is clearly cheating, or full-blown negligence. I just told you what was wrong with the algorithm, and how you left out my vassals and dominions, and your refusing to fix it. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:27, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

No, Viva, I was advised to lock it. We can work out the details later, perhaps in a chat with everyone in this war and an extra mod. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 23:19, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Claims
I have put this section up to show what I think the nations would initially plausibly gain and lose. Do not edit this section until the war is over.

Ethiopia will lose its Alaskan colonies to China, regardless of the outcome to the war. If Ethiopia wins the war, the amount of px the Alaskan colonies occupy will be added onto the amount Ethiopia can claim. If China and co win, then the amount of px gained will be taken away from the total no of px they can claim.

On the flipside, China would most definately lose its colony in South Africa to the Ethiopians. If Ethiopia wins the war, the amount of px the South African colony occupies will be taken away from the amount Ethiopia can claim. If China and co win, then the amount of px lost from the colony will be added to the total no of px they can claim

ASB
I just recently (yesterday, actually) took a look back at this game, to see what the world looked like  on the (roughly) 1 year anniversary of its birth.

What have you guys been SMOKING?

Guys, really, reality check here- ETHIOPIA, a country which is landlocked except for the Red Sea, has a colony in ''Alaska? And, though I may be mistaken here, Britain? ''

I'm not even going to start on the Koori Union but dammit what were the mods doing when the Koori Union was made?

Tojiko? Really? A Japanese colony in West Africa?

'Chinese Zululand'?

I mean, guys, I appreciate that I haven't been here for a long time, but honestly, there is no way in hell that the WELSH, of all people have a colony on Mada-effing-gascar!

Guys, really, it may be none of my business, but what are you doing? Don't you think that there's a reason that the Germans OTL never really had a colonial empire? Don't you think there's a reason the Ethipians didn't annex half of Africa and Alaska? It's beacuse, simply, it was way beyond their resources, beyond their means.

Start annew.

Guns plz. That kills most games. Koori, implausible, yes. Wales, implausible, most definitely. Germany, implausible, no. I used to own large Atlantic coast and I warred my way to controlling resources fast and efficiently. #BrandenburgKlingons

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:15, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Alaska is going to the Chinese. Chinese Zululand to Ethiopia. Guns, read up in game. Britain established a world empire on its own. What were THEY SMOKING? Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:17, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

That is true. I'm not suggesting that you retcon the game (wouldn't work at this point anyway), but that you literally start annew with PMIII.

Germany, Implausible, yes. Not as much as the others but Chimu just about kills your record.

Imp, the mere fact that they ESTABLISHED those colonies is stupendously ASB.

And if it had been Spain or France or Portugal or the Netherlands which established worldwide empires, I'd agree with you, it's perfectly plausible. BUT WALES?

The Brits, unlike the Germans, also had the ocean basically to themselves. The Germans have to go through the Strait of Denmark. Any idiot at war with them could cut off basically all their trade with 3 ships and a Molotov Cocktail (fire ships, that is).

Wrong again. I used to own Denmark and Norway and Sweden and Aragon and Aquitane and Luxembourg, all of which gave fine access to the Atlantic.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:29, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Guns, the entire matter had been resolved a while ago. I explained how Ethiopia could maintain its colonies, and Collie (or Scan I think), even cleared one of the Ethiopian dominions to possess a colony it established in Canada. Also, Ethiopia also controls Somalia and Kenya, meaning it has access to the Indian Ocean and historical ports. As for Germany, OTL-wise, it had a very large colonial empire. So I won't elaborate further on that matter. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:34, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

@Scraw

Well now that's just perfectly plausible; a huge, non-contigous nation with no less than 7 languages being used in different regions, united under one nation (yes, Scraw, that was sarcasm). And though you might say that England did a similar thing, the people the Brits were colonizing were for the most part extremely primitive; not so for this lot. While it is true that such a nation can exist, it won't do so for long; look at Austria Hungary, which WAS contigous and had only 5 different peoples.

@Viva

A) No germany didn't.

B) There is no possible explanation for that. ~Guns



Viva, let me handle this one. First of all, Ethiopia has been in close contact with the Indians for a good part of two and a half centuries. This means they have traded and have been able to expand their empire to richer areas and then expand. Plus, the Ethiopians have the sea with them - have a look on the map Viva posted up here on in the the last archive. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:38, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Guns, Luxembourg controlled Brandenburg and I turned that on its head. Boom. Luxembourg is German. The German states began to infiltrate France before its collapse and I just kept it as a vassal after that. Also Aragon and Brandenburg fell into dynastic union. Note that I lost all those lands after I no longer needed them. Although the mods unfairly hijacked Denmark from me.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:45, September 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I feel the same with the netherlands ¬¬ Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:49, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

France didn't became a world power because of Random quitting, then the collapse of france, Same for spain, (This one instead remaining until late 1500 when the portuguese invaded them) while this the Caliphate grew, Venice took over naples,Burgundy kept controlling the netherlands and Brandenburg asserted control in germany, England soon collapsed, AP and Scraw Attacked after the independence of the Netherlands, Luxembourg gain Picardy by then Brandenburg had control of new york in north america, France had control of Colombia and Venezuela (as well as the guyanas ) Portugal took brazil the incas were taken by AP (Ignoring a previous algo of mine that allowed me to take around 20% of the Inca's land, then France collapsed again and it was given to me after the second player quit the game, eversince i've been trying to get france back on its feet and help force scraw out of some territories non-germanic,Bavaria consolidated itself a kingdom in central germany, Italia took over the balkans until the Byzantines got independent rejoining the Hellenic Union., Wales took over in mod events of the England, and the Rex came and Vassalize (Faster than it should be allowed) the Maghreb African countries, then the things get like this. This are only the European events. oh and Russia falled to the caliphate in 1560 - 1580, who collapses due to the Mahdi and fractures and Causes the fall of islam. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:49, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

I will cede Germany. Having done more research, I have found that it was very possible for Gemrnay to do this, provided that the infighting ceased, as it did ATL.

Ethiopia? Imp, there is no way for even MODERN DAY ethiopia to support a colony in ALASKA. It just doesn't figure. Even with a huge amount of Indian help- ok, though India OTL was pretty isolationist and that wouldn't have changed, but I'll let it slide- well, even India couldn't reach Alaska. The technology simply didn't exist, and there was no reason for it to. Especially since any Indian exploration would logically occur towards the east- where as your map shows the Ethiopians rounding Tierra Del Fuego and heading North!

AND WALES? Vassalizing the Maghreb? What has he been smoking- LSD?

Ethiopia, having a colony in England?

NONE of you guys think that ANY of this is, well- insane?

England is not a colony.And i also thought that the Maghred part was kinda implausible, but there was nothing i could do about that.And, you focused so much on those few examples that you forgot some others like Cyprus having a colonial empire.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:03, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Im not playing and im really only interested in joining the pm iii if it happens but who cares if its really asb theve made it work either way and they are enjoying themselves, wouldn't you like to see an eithopian alaska XD doesn't matter if your smoking or not. Nkbeeching (talk) 21:06, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

@Collie

Oh, my bad then.

@nk

The point is that it is supposed to be plausible and it isn't. Someone should add the ASB tag.

ps the only reason germany didn't have a large colonial empire was because of the infighting like you said and after unification most of the world had alredy been carved up by the time bismark finally accepted the demands of the germans for the establishment of a german colonil empire but they did in the end though lost it after the first world war. they had a much better chance of creating a colonial empire then lets say Italy, and they certainly hd more resources then portugal or holland who at one point or another held large empires themselves. Nkbeeching (talk) 21:11, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

You deleted my earlier post, lol.

Actually, Portugal and Holland were both seafaring nations- Germany was not.

But yes, as I said, I cede that point. The others though are so wildly implausible that they make Operation Sealion look downright plausible.

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 21:17, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Sealion was plausible. Victory wasn't. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:22, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Lol. Fair enough. But you get my point.

Ah sorry my bad, well i only said they possessed greater resources, true those were sea faring countries, they had no other choice but to become seafaring countries. but back to the original pooint, who doesn't want to see an eithopian alaska or for that matter any country owning alaska it makes a great story. but i understand the point about plausibility not that i really care i just wanted to discuss something with domeone right now i didnt really have any interest in getting into deep talks, to bored from studying for my freaking finals. Nkbeeching (talk) 21:37, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

You have finals?

I just got back to school and have a s***load of hw already =(

yeah the endo f my first year in university, dont forget that south of the ecuador the seasons are different im eaving winter right now and going into spring, my vacatiions are december jan and feb.  yeah high school sucked luckily i finished two years ago Nkbeeching (talk) 21:54, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Just a thought here, but this is a game in addition to being a timeline. We're all playing nations which we've spent "hundreds of years" building up to be superpowers with very careful moves designed to shape the future. Hence, seeing as this game is now almost 400 years old and has a lot more detail and points of divergance than a normal timeline, it's not entirely ASB to do a lot of stuff we've been doing. We might push the limits of plausibility, but we try to do so by making moves subtly to enable us to do otherwise ASB things years down the road. I know I started making moves to enable my 20th Century post-whaling economy all the way back in the late 1600s. I don't know how many people are thinking that far ahead but the point is that the level of detail in this game enables a lot of developments that seem weird in OTL. But a lot of it is at least mildly plausibile, and since we've gotten this far down the road, I've been making the case - I think rightly - that introducing OTL constraints on development is ASB in itself at this point. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:01, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

And to a point, this is true. But no state the size of Wales, or as isolated as Ethiopia, could ever achieve such gigantic empires. Wales especially; they simply don't have the resources. Ethiopia might be plausible if you went back a few more centuries. But have you seen the Welsh? The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 18:18, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

LOL. Actually I thought the Welsh thing was quite plausible seeing as England itself had long since collapsed and splintered in the timeline. Wales might have been small compared to OTL England, but it was in pretty decent shape compared to the ATL post-English microstates of Lincoln, York, and Cornwall. I think Wales and Scotland in that situation would both be in pretty good situations to subdue the surrounding kingdomes and take primacy. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:36, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

PMIII Proposal
Hey all. PMII is in its last 200 turns and boy has it been a ride. I have a few ideas I wish to share for PMIII. Anyone else is free to add their own ideas so long as you sign after them.
 * 1) Earlier start time. We have had 1420 and 1450. I think its time to unwind to 1350 for some more interesting situations worldwide. Scandinator (talk)
 * 2) A slight rewrite of the algorithm to include national unity (or something similar). Scandinator (talk)
 * 3) Debuffs for all areas of the world until they fulfill a set of requirements. Scandinator (talk)
 * 4) Rethink industrialization concept. It was good on paper, but was rather sloppy in its execution. Some prior forethought into the matter to avoid the confusion and debate in the next game would be nice. Vivaporius (talk)
 * 5) Improve and refine colonization concept for PMIII. While I agree that it rather water-tight as of now, I think some further discussion on the matter as to how to improve it would be a significant development for the future game. Vivaporius (talk)
 * 6) Allow further technological advances. Of course the system now is good, but if nations in Asia become world powers, the progress of science is a whole load faster, especially if the government emphasis is on the subject. Otherwise we will be stuck with laptops in 2013, not building terraforming stations over Venus. ;) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 06:51, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7) Firm (but hopefully not restrictive) rules on expansion and colonization for tribal nations (Selk'nam, Koori, etc.) and non-OTL powers (Ethiopia, Maya, etc.). Address in advance whather or not European and Asian nations get special privileges to avoid recriminations and arguments over whether non-European powers are to be considered ASB. This seemingly has been a major problem in this game, with certain players demanding that African/American/Oceanian powers be allowed to rise. and some insisting that European powers should not be subject to off-continent attack, or that they should always behave as superiors when relating to non-Europeans. Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:40, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) I would like for there to be at least one mod who does not play as a nation, who would be completely unbiased. They handle the algorithms where one or more mods are in the conflict, so there's no way that it could swing one way or another because of what user is playing. CourageousLife (talk) 20:29, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9) Expansion from land to coast should be harder and slower, but inwards expansion from coast to land should be easier. (This means through black areas.) ~ Scraw 21:46, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 10) In the algorithm, the development scores should range based on how much total, not just 15 years. For example, if a weak nation has +15 military and a strong one has a +5 even though it has one of the most powerful militaries in the world, this is not fair. Each nation should have individual development scores, which can be assigned everytime a map is made. ~ Scraw
 * 11) Dare I suggest moving at two years per turn? That would allow the game to finish in in one year instead of two. Commandante Lemming (talk) 02:40, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

That all sounds good - I'm a little iffy on technical advances earlier for Asia as they would probably tip the balance in favor of Asia over Europe (which isn't neccessarily BAD, but it might be a bit unfair to players in Europe). Personally I was planning a PM3 strategy contingent on a mid-1400s start, but I think I can probably play in the same region with an even stronger chance of accomplishing my goal with an earlier start. My only question then would be whether a jump-start in technology would also enable a jump start in colonization. Just for the sake of gameplay, if we set colonization limits at 1500, some players may get boxed in and bored in the first 200 turns. I personally am not too worried about that (yeah I'm dropping hints) but I probably would be if my plan was to play a relatively small European nation in OTL France or Germany. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:13, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

All I know is that I want to be Florence. Also, I remember Scan wanting to be China in PMII. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 14:30, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well if we're calling nations I'm looking at my options in Siberia as the Golden Horde starts to collapse. I think it's an underexploited region that would make a nice follow up to my Selk'nam adventure, so I may discuss what nations can be carved out at the point of divergence. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:43, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

For me, if we're going to start in 1350, probably i'll call Portugal again.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:12, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Korea next game if it's okay. -Kogasa  2013 September 10, 18:00 (CET)

I'd like to call Britain/England.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 16:06, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Ethiopia once again. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:03, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call Scotland. Yank 17:44, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought you'd wanted to be Japan next game? -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 19:55 (CET)
 * I'd like to call the Kalmar Union. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 18:16, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I'm going to be Japan they're going to Christianize ASAP. Even if it's a hybrid religion like Jiduhism. Yank 20:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, will you be choosing Japan or can I have it? The only reason why I didn't choose it was because I though you'd wanted it. -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 22:10 (CET)
 * I'd like to stick with Europe for once. For now I'm going for Scotland. We'll see when PMII comes around. Yank 20:17, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. In that case I'll call Japan for PMIII. If you ever change your mind let me know. -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 September 10, 22:21 (CET)
 * I'll put in my reservation for the Mayans again (or Aztecs, depending on when the start date is). CourageousLife (talk) 20:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

If we're doing round robin - anyone have their heart set on Russia? I don't want it, but the presence, or lack thereof, of a strong Russia is going to be a big factor in my game, and if there is russian player I will want to talk to them before the game starts. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:59, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well he hasn't posted yet but I know that Lx will be pissed if someone takes Russia. Unless you do something like the Russian Confed. from early on in this game (before your time I think) The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 21:41, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I say that the start should be in 1400. Also, regardless of the start time, I wanted England, but that is unfortunately taken so I shall settle on China if still available. If not, (in order of preference) Vietnam, Korea, Ottomans, or Mughals.

Scraw 21:46, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

The Mughals came in 1517, while the Ottomans were pretty disorganized until 1420 ish. Korea is taken, I believe. But have fun with China. I NOW HAVE THE COOLEST SIG ON THE WIKI!

China it is then.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:00, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * China's claimed by Scan. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 22:01, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Plz. Has he said it yet? If you really persist on this, then I'll just move on down to the Crown of Aragon.
 * Scraw 22:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I claimed it a year ago :P Scandinator (talk) 09:53, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Do it! Also, your sig has gone massive- YET AGAIN!

Dammit! Thought I fixed it...

~ S 22:08, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Make it into a template

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:19, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

That's how it already is...

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry I'm not going to steal Russia, I was just going to see who was playing it becasue I intend on building an Asian Siberian power behind Russia - the idea being to seewhat happens in a timeline where Russia doesn't have unimpeded access to Siberia and the Pacific - but I don't want to get blown off the map by and angry Russian player either. If there's a strong Russian player then I'll likely back off and build an Asian nation in the OTL Russian Far East. If there isn't, I might just play as the Samoyedic peoples in the Urals and stop the Russian Empire from forming in the first place. But if Lx wants to keep Russia then I'll build something further East (Actually, if Lx wants to have some real fun and we shift back to 1350, I would encourage him to play as the Golden Horde, prevent it's demise, eliminate the nascent Russian Empire at it's origin, and build a Muslim power in East Europe - now THAT would shake things up.) Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:31, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Matter of fact, I'll just take Aragon. Lemming, I suggest Manchuria or Korea.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:33, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

@Scraw

Well, clearly not...

@Lemming

Don't worry, Lx won't flip. But really, take one of the Siberian peoples then, not one of the proper Rus.

Hey! Just had an idea.

Why not start PMIII now?

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:35, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I won't be taking an established nation. If I'm starting in 1350 in a baren wasteland I'm starting from scatch. I'm thinking maybe the Koryak peoples on Kamchatka could adopt Chinese and Japanese influeance and build a Buddhist Asian nation on the sea of Okhotsk - or Maybethe Evenks on the Amur River. That oughta be a nice suprise for the Russians when they arrive 300 years later :-) I'm playing the tribal game this time - it'll be even more fun if I do it from the get-go.

And I'd be all for starting it now but not for wrapping up PM2, I want to finish this sucker out.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 22:41, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I agree.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:43, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ik, that's what I was suggesting. Run 'em simultaneously. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:44, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

That won't work as the players will immediately move to PMIII and let PMII die. That's what happened to all the other major map games the moment PMII began. Also, Scraw when I read your rule proposal, it almost entirely mirrors the current war between Ethiopia and the Sino-German Alliance. There have been many examples of a minor power defeating a major power throughout history. Greece vs. Persia, Japan vs. Russia, Switzerland vs. Holy Roman Empire, any number of barbarians vs. the Roman Empire. By assign individual development points, that in and of itself is unfair, as it doesn't permit a minor power to grow and become a major power. England was at one point a minor power, and could have been destroyed by Spain, but it became a major power after facing the odds and dethroning the world power of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of making it easier for colonies to conquer native nations, but your example works too.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:37, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I can wait another 200 days. Though I somehow doubt it will get that far... The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:49, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Guns plz. PM always lasts.

~ S 23:51, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw, you have one example of that.

One data point a trend does not make. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:58, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

I actualy posted before, stating my desire to, for the moment, be set as a russian nation, seeing as we do not know what the start date would be, therefore almost impossible to form strategy as a response to Leming's first querry on Russia. unfortunately, editconflict happened and I closed laptop as soon as I saw page reloading(most of the time meaning edit was submitted, only to find out now it did not go through. The Muslim GH option looks like it might be interesting, to change things up(i did despotic Muscovite russia, now i'm doing mercantile, democratic novgorodian russia)...but i will wait first so that I know what time period. For the time being put me down as a russian state(due to the fact that different time periods yield different balances of power in russia and in eastern europe/northwestern asia in general)-Lx (leave me a message) 00:56, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh right, another thing, we probably shouldnt start PMIII before PMII finishes...running two (extremely) similar map games simultaneously, and expecting people to pay as much attention to one as the other is an absurd idea. you can at best hope for half copy-pastey and half actual edits, with the ones copy-pasting in PMIII actual editing in PMII and vice versa, and an eventual loss of intrest in one or the other, to the detriment of both. I want maximum success for both games, so I humbly suggest to wait out PMIII untill PMII finishes.

'''On a completely unrelated sidenote: I am posting this here because I know ceveral BFE contributors are also PMII contributors. you do not need to read this if you are not interested in Battle for Earth.'''The New BFE map game was delayed and never started due to summer and many people being gone...this should not be the case anymore...It would be best if people running the game would know who is still in, and perhaps new people that would like to join, please say so on the talk page of Battle for Earth Strikes Back. I want to start this up ASAP, and ask players to at least add a bit of history to the BFE: Prime Timeline, and do some personal alien nation history(or human nation history with alien artifacts left behind...) to add to the BFE Universe. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:06, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well Guns, if you're really itching for action, PM2 itself has a bunch of prime real estatem, especially in Central Asia, why not jump into the sandbox? I know the timeline has gotten pretty complicated and some weird moves have been made, but that happens with any game. I know I'd personally love to have a Persian or Dimurati player back in the game, that or take over one of the "ASB" colonies and see what you can do with it. You know you want to give in to the crazy. 200 turns isn't that long and the game could proably use a little new blood. Seriously though, we need more people who want to do serious alternate history in this game, it would enrich the timeline, and I think you could have some fun until we get PM3 going later. Commandante Lemming (talk) 02:40, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

If we're calling stuff can I call the Byzantines? :D Airlinesguy (talk) 12:54, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh i call the Ottomans :D And if i cant have them then ill take Venice or the Papal States :) DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 16:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

The Ottomans were pretty disorganized at the time, assuming we're starting at 1350, though you're welcome to give it a shot. You never know what you could pull off. Though I'd advise against claiming the Italian states ;) CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 20:43, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I also advise against Italy and the Ottomans. Italy will have two powerful nations with players in there already (me and Crim), so not the best move. Ottomans are randomly dead. I suggest a small state in Central Germany to get you started.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought you were going to be Aragon :( CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 23:56, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am. I have Naples and Athens! :P
 * Scraw 23:57, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Naples was captured by Aragon in 1442 by Alfonso I. Even then, it was a dependency. Athens, on the other hand, was captured by Aragon in 1311. However, Florence captured the city in 1388. After some wars with Venice over the city, Florence finally came out on top and controlled the city until 1458. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:46, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dang. I'll make it a point to speed that up XD.
 * Scraw 00:48, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd advise against that ;) CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 00:52, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

In fact, you cannot play as the Ottomans if we start in 1350 because OH HEY THEY DIDN'T EXIST YET.

Othman I, the founder of the Ottoman Empire (ish, until 1420 it was disorganized and unimportant) was born in 1356 so ATL wouldn't be born at all; thus no Ottoman Empire would exist.

But I recommend we start in 1400 anyway because that was around the founding of the Kalmar Union.

The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:21, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think 1400 is a good year to start.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:26, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

CORRECTION!!!! I WILL BE PERSIA!!!!!!! Either 1350 or 1400 ill still be a powerhouse :) DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 17:23, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

So as far as I can tell, Kogasa and Crim like 1400, Collie likes 1350, Scan has no opinion, and neither AP nor Lurk have posted in, wow, months now. Persia. Yeah, umm, no. That was 1500s. At this point, Persia was really weak. It was the Safavids who made Persia great again, in 1501. At this point you have a disorganized state recovering from the Ilkhanate. Still, it could be powerful. Have fun, Dean. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 19:11, September 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Really.Persia in 1350 will be divided among the Jalayrid, Chupanid, Muzaffarid, Hazaraspid, Baduspanid, Bavanid, Mihrabanid, Injuid and Kartid dynasties's domains, aside of the Gilite, Sarbadar and Shabankara kingdoms.don't forget Shirvan as well.It makes for a more interesting scenario, while in 1400 you'll have the Timurids in their peak.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:54, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Care to explain yourself in why you were deleting my reply?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:01, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

If Airlines doesn't takes Byzantium i would like to have it, but I call dibs on France or Spain. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:12, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Spain is not a country. Byzantium was never the name of the Eastern Roman Empire, which was as good as dead. Iberia already houses Portugal and Aragon, so unless you want to be sandwiched in by them, I suggest France.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  01:16, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * And don't forget Navarra.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:01, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * OH Please start in 1400, oh please oh please :) Ill be a good Perisa XD Also, i can finally establish that Middle Eastern Empire i wanted to make in PM2 without the threat of Europe crusading me lol. And i promise NO CALIPHATE lol, im gonna be an Empire, pure and simple, and once i reahc my desired borders, which actually arent that insane, ill stop expanding and focus completley on staying on peaceful relations with everyone and get rich from trade, might establish a colony or two in East Afirca for trading bases, but otherwise stay totally focused on the homeland. DS|Im Coocoo for Cocoa Puffs!! 14:24, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: Am i Muslim at this time?


 * So, I am interested (obviously) in joining PM3 when it comes out. I am just considering nations to be. I enjoy European history from 1400-1800 the most, with Western History from 2000 BC-Present being interesting, also. I was thinking of being part of the HRE (Saxony?) or the Teutonic Order. Any other suggestions? Thanks,  (PS. I am also thinking Burgundy, but want to hear your thoughts)


 * I would also like to claim the Romans, but seeing as how two people claimed that already, I doubt I would get it. If not, I would like to call something Mongol, maybe the Golden Horde.
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:39, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lx may take Golden Horde but you could probably have some un with split-off in Siberia - that or unite a tribe like the Buryats or Yakuts in Siberia. I think I've setttled that I'm playing as the Nivkh people on the Amur River so OTL Russia could be crowded. (which I like) Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:16, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Scandinator

 * 1) Earlier start time would mean a new scenario. 1350 means Europe is at its lowest point while the Middle East is collapsing. 1400 means the Middle East has collapsed while Europe is at its most fractured. Both present interesting options for gameplay and opening moves.
 * 2) National Unity is important as if there are multiple ethnic and cultural groups unintegrated into the nation then there will be dissent and rebellion within your nation at peace and at war. However this will be hard to implement and maintain.
 * 3) Debuffs. The regions and nations of the world were good and bad at various areas. Certain areas fielded excellent cavalry, others had immense navies while others had archers and infantry beyond compare. Each area was ahead in its own field but behind in others; until you manage to work around it then you are weaker in a certain way in the algorithm or in another way.
 * 4) I fully support a rework of the industrialisation chart and implementation. Stricter guidelines and harsher penalities for those that step out of plausibility are also required. Some of the steps on the chart were only achievable near the end and it was obivous that some people were doing things just for the table and hadn't done research into what was possible or not.
 * 5) A rework of the colonisation system is also required. We have tiny nations like Cyprus with large colonial empires. True there were cases of such in OTL but they were single territories and/or scattered islands (Belgium and Holland). Im unsure about how to go about this though...
 * 6) Technological Advancement beyond OTL is a good point and should be implemented although carefully monitored to avoid exploitation.
 * 7) Firm rules on continental expansion are required especially for tribal nations. Mods should be very strict with the original size of the nation. In addition, continental expansion rates should be of a proportional value to the main nation instead of the current one value fits all.
 * 8) The idea for a neutral mod is good but implausible. They would soon lose interest.
 * 9) Im not quite sure what Scraw means, but currently all black land is the same, it completely ignores terrain. I believe that expansion in deserts, mountains and other difficult terrain should be slower while coastal and river expansion should be faster and easier.
 * 10) An algorithm rework on that scale will be open for corruption and misuse. Population covers for that at the moment
 * 11) Nonononononono.

Kogasa

 * 1) To be honest I liked it better starting around the 1400s. I think the next game should start in 1400.
 * 2) That can possibly work.
 * 3) I personally like to think that any nation I play, unless I mention something different, goes on similar to OTL. That includes industrial.
 * 4) I agree. What Scan said above.
 * 5) I think colonisation is fine the way it is now. But that's just me.
 * 6) I fully agree with this one. Why be limited to technology OTL when we have industrialisation earlier than OTL?
 * 7) Again, what Scan said.
 * 8) It would be difficult. I disagree.
 * 9) Once again, what Scan said. Actually now thinking about it, my expansion on Kamchatka was limited due to terrain, and I couldn't expand the full 10000 sq km maximum (it was cut to 5000 sq km maximum). But I guess that's a different story.
 * 10) No. I agree with Scan above on this issue.
 * No.

CrimsonAssassin

 * 1) It's Principia Moderni (beginning of the modern) for a reason. 1400 is a good start date.
 * 2) This is going to be a pain to work in. I remember trying to integrate stability into algorithms in PMI not going very well.
 * 3) This could be interesting, but I don't think it should be a debuff. I think we should reward players for completing goals (like Italy unifying or Britain having a huge empire)
 * 4) This
 * 5) What would really help is a mapmaker for Europe and one for Asia.
 * 6) This
 * 7) What Scan said, but also we shouldn't give non-European powers special treatment.
 * 8) He/she would lose interest quickly
 * 9) What Scan said
 * 10) From what I've seen, most people who aren't in PM say that they haven't joined because they think it's too late. It's never too late, of course, but with a rule like this, new players would quickly be overwhelmed. Even with an NPC bonus, it'd be a pain.
 * No

Collie Kaltenbrunner

 * 1) Both 1350 and 1400 are good start dates.But i favour personally 1350.
 * 2) This is a good idea, but wouldn't it be difficult to implement?
 * 3) What is that?
 * 4) I agree with Scan again.
 * 5) I guess so.
 * 6) We should be careful with that.
 * 7) I agree with Scan.
 * No, it wouldn't work.for instance, in PMI, by the 1950's, i basically had lost all interest in the game when the expansion possibilities had ended, and the only thing keeping me from leaving was the fact that i still needed to make the maps, and even then, my posts became strictly copy-pasting.Okay, this might not be the best example, but you get the point.Why somebody would try to moderate a game that he has no involvement on?
 * 1) I agree with Scan again.Expansion through the Appalachians and the Sahara, for example, really should be more difficult.Also, inland Africa and Australia, up to a point.
 * 2) I will go with Scan's opinion.
 * 3) And the scale of posts would double, since we would have two years in one post.For some, nothing would change, as their posts are already copy-pasting, but some would be stuck with walls of text.And then we would have to rework the algorythm and the colonial system, just for starters.Your idea had good intentions, but it is simply impracticable.

The Semi-Official Claims for PM3
In the following format claim your nation in PM3

Nation Name: Your signature

Europe

 * Byzantines: Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:41, September 13, 2013 (UTC) ( I am willing to surrender this if someone else really wants it. (Could I have it? Airlinesguy (talk) 00:09, September 14, 2013 (UTC) )


 * England: TOB
 * Florence: CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 19:44, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Poland and Lithuania (Union of Krewo):
 * Russians(for now)-Lx (leave me a message) 19:59, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Crown of Aragon ~ Scraw 21:28, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Portugal: --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:34, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we start in 1400, the Kalmar Union. If in 1350, Denmark.

Africa

 * Ethiopia - Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:26, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Asia

 * Ashikaga Shogunate/Japan - Kogasa

Middle East

 * Perisa/Timurids: DS|The Rainbow Machete 19:38, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Germanica

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Germanica (L), Mysore (L), Orientalia (L), Neu Berlin (M), Wales (MV), England (MV), Maroko (M), Neu Prussen (M), Chimu (M), Georgia (M), Byakuren (S): 32/82 = 0
 * Military Development: 10/28 = 0
 * Economy: 0/0 = 0
 * Infrastructure 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +10 +10 +10 = +30
 * Chance: +4
 * Edit Count: 12,430
 * UTC Time: 17:27 = 98
 * 98/12430*pi = 0.0247687916373146
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -17
 * Total: 44

The Coalition

 * Location: +2 (+4 Saxony, Bavaria, Anhalt; +3 Cologne, +4 Tanimbarkai, Indonesia; +3 Orissa)
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Bavaria (L), Saxony (L), Anhalt (L), Cologne (L), Tanimbarkai (L), Indonesia (L), Orissa (L), Rajputana (M), Dahod (MV), Nepal (MV), Bhutan (MV), Mataram (M), Brunei (M), Naya Bihar (M), Sulwasi (MV), Rokkaku Shogunate (M), Okinawa (MV), Yorubaland (L), Darfur (L), Kitara (L), Benin (L), Ethiopia (M), Kenya (M), Eritrea (M), Borona (M), Adal (M), Warsangali (M), Majeerteen Sultanate (MV), Ajuuraan Sultanate (MV), Beja (MV): 88/32 = 2.75= +3
 * Military Development: +28/10 = +2
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7 +7 +7 +7 +3 +3 +7 +7 +7 +7 +7= 69
 * Chance: +3
 * Edit Count: 2,113
 * UTC Time: 14:23 = 24
 * 24/2113*pi = 0.0356830211482063
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +29
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -25

Total: 99

Result

 * ((99/(44+99)*2)-1 = 0.3846153846153846%
 * 38.46*(1-1/(2*5)) = 34.614%

Discussion
Assholes.

~ Scraw 21:51, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

If it's any consolation, Scraw, you won the war with that title. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:01, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Lol, it's not, but thanks anyways. :P

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:05, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a map game.

But if you want to join me in PMII exile, then I recommend you use my departure speech. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:09, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

lolk.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:10, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

I liked the old name better. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:15, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

You think that name will get you mod approval (well apart from one mod). Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:18, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Techno, Imp? Techno? What are you, Skrillex in diguise? The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 22:19, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

XD

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:20, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

That name isn't going to fly. Both you and Viva have been getting out of hand and it needs to stop. CrimsonAssassin- "I have special eyes" 23:17, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

How I'm I out of hand? All I did was state that what you did was wrong. Aside from that, i'm pretty pleasant right now. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:20, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

^ That was an interesting comment. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:21, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

OK Crim. Just got a tad bit bored.

Scraw 23:23, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

It is an interesting comment Guns. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:23, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

And that reply was just a thing of beauty. The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:25, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! :D Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:26, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Much welcome xD The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:32, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Nice try Scraw, but thanks to you and Crim, not of the (L) dominions I have were able to provide direct aid to the last conflict (no penalty), and joining as (M) doesn't incur a penalty. I made sure to check, and even asked Imp (feel free to speak to him for assurance). Funny looking back at it now. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:53, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, shit. Scraw, you are now truly screwed. You were banking on viva being, umm, viva... The one and only Guns, who is too lazy to go to source mod and type out his real sig. (talk) 23:56, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Boom. Headshot. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:58, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Let me quote the strength from the Celtic War: See that? Yoruba, Darfur, Kitara, and Benin all gave military aid in the Celtic War. -1 for each of them.
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Kenya (M), Eritrea (M), Borona (M), Adal (MV), Warsangali (MV), Normandy (MV), Oyo (MV), Benin (MV), Yorubaland (MV), Beja (MV), Darfur (MV), Kitara (MV), Majeerteen Sultanate (MV), Ajuuraan Sultanate (MV), Germanica (L), Neu Berlin (L), Neu Prussen (L), Georgia (L), Chimu (M), Mysore (M), Orientalia (M), United Maharajya (L), Rajputana (L), Dahod (MV), Nepal (MV), Bhutan (MV), Mataram (M), Brunei (M), Naya Bihar (M), Sulwasi (MV) = 85/32 = +3

And here's the strength from Me and Crim and our friends vs you: See that, too? More Yoruba, Darfur, Kitara and Benin sending military aid. Once again, -1 for each.
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Kenya (L), Eritrea (L), Borona (L), Normandy (L), Adal (L), Warsangali (MV), Oyo (MV), Benin (MV), Yorubaland (MV), Beja (MV), Darfur (MV), Kitara (MV), Brittany (MV), Hobyo Somalia (MV), Warqama (MV)  England (MV), Scotland (MV), Ireland (MV)= 50/97 = .515= 0

And here's a direct quote from the rules page:

Recent Wars And here's a link:
 * 1) Every war that you sent military aid to in the last 15 years is -1.
 * 2) Every year of war in the last 15 years that you fought as a leader is -1.

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Rules_(Principia_Moderni_II)#Recent_Wars

So, uh, yea, you're giving your pals a -8 penalty.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:09, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Vassals do not incur penalty. As I recall telling you on this very page, I rolled with my dominions as vassals to avoid the penalty in the Welsh conflict. In the last war, I tried to roll with them as military supporters, by Crim said it was retard (in his usual manner), and kept them as vassals. So, uh, no, I'm not giving my pals -8 penalty. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:17, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Yes they do. I speak from experience with Von; status does not matter. Note that I gave myself the appropriate -7 for Mysore and Orientalia.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:20, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

I speak form experience as well, and my vassals do not get the penalty. Kinda strange how you went from -8 to -20. But no, they don't get the penalty. And the proof in that is that Crim and Courage ran their vassals as (MV), but when they needed more points they rolled (L). (V) doesn't get a penalty, and that is quite evident in every war in the game, unless the vassals didn't use (V) in their strength points, at which the incur the penalty. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:25, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, they (vassals) do incur the penalty, as Von demonstrated to me in my first war after the First Big German War. I made my vassals into dominions, just like you, and I was informed that they incurred penalties just like any other state. And you can't hold me accountable for their actions.

Also, -25 comes in because Bavaria and Saxony both fought six years (1814 - 1820) in the war with Switzerland.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:29, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Still no, as you weren't saying that until I mentioned it. That alone shows that your looking for an excuse to create the penalty. But if it'll make you feel better, I'll roll with the penalty. Doesn't change anything. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:36, September 14, 2013 (UTC)