Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''

Scotland was influenced by England for ten years before being vassalized for a further seven. It should now be the colour of England(Red).[http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User:Andr3w777 ALLONS-Y! ] (Basically, RUN!) 03:17, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

The Coulnty of Flanders (not including Artois) needs to be added Brabant-Hainaut-Holland lands. Nkbeeching (talk) 15:35, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Bah Everything east of OTL french border with belgium, the flanders county territories within the french borders remain mine! Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

Ragusa is my vassal but on the current map its grey and on top of that My conquests in Morocco need to be added. Kunarian TALK 06:35, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Also, I concluded a deal with the Ottomans this turn regarding the area around the Black Sheep Turks. The burnt-orange area at right has been transferred from Ottoman control to mine. Not sure what I'm going to do regarding internal organization, so just leave it separate from my other regions for now. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Riga's been absorbed by Prussia, and Courland has been vassalized by Prussia.--Yank 23:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

As Bengal, Aohm/Ahom and Koch have been my vassals for a few turns, Arakan and Garjat were integrated into my nation, and I've expanded about 2000km into the Andaman Islands. Also, when someone put Orissa as my vassal, they removed the nation they conquered in the 1410s, and made them pre-1410 size. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 23:57, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Once again, Siberian expansion is not present. I believe I've expanded for enough to reach the sea by now. Fed (talk) 23:58, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been able to edit a lot lately, but I've noticed two things. First, the Aztecs are expanding exponentially, while my nation (Zapotec) has remained at a standstill. The other is more of an inquiry. How are these small tribes (Colorado, Cahokian) developing into such large nations so quickly, and plausibly? Their size on the map alone is astounding. Cour *talk* 20:16, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

My colony in Azores, that as of 1440 includes the islands of Santa Maria and São Miguel is missing.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:51, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I was just wondering if we will have a labelled map in 1450, as well as another mod-written update of events (much like we had in 1400). I think both of these features would really improve the quality of the game even further by keeping it current! Thanks, 10:10, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Religious Map
As Rex is out and the religious schisms seem to be heating up, I went ahead and updated the religious map to reflect the 1435 political boundaries. All colors reflect the region's majority religion to the best of my knowledge. TankOfMidgets (talk) 06:53, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

It's good, but Oldenburg isn't Protestant, although I can understand why you'd think it is. Sedevacantism is just Catholicism which doesn't recognise any of the current papal claimants as legitimate popes. Other than that, it is the exact same as Catholicism. Callumthered (talk)

You also colored a bunch of states protestant that are Catholic in the lowlands. For example you colored Cologne, which in reality is so Catholic it's run by an archbishop. Not to mention it is an elector of the Holy Roman Empire. Mscoree (talk) 14:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Also why are a bunch of nations in Swabia colored different? Mscoree (talk) 14:07, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

I can basically sum up these issues as "I was working off the 1427 map." I've gone back and post-scanned, and the map has been adjusted accordingly. Reformism is now limited to only Brabant-Holland-Hainaut; Oldenburg and Osnabruck are now shown as Sedevacantist (marked as a sub-branch of Catholicism), and Bavaria and its vassals are now correctly displayed as Catholic (since the Bavarian player hasn't yet announced his conversion in-post). TankOfMidgets (talk) 21:37, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in gold, and Sedevacantist states are shown in pale yellow. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Protestantism is red; I will add more sub-shades if more *Protestant sects arise. Sunni Islam is lime green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green. Hinduism is sky blue, while Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink.

Notes
 * Nations whose churches function autonomously but that otherwise hold similar beliefs have been lumped together under their "mother" church for ease of reference. For those curious why all the Orthodox states are orange even though they're administratively independent, or why France is listed as Catholic even though they're busy autonomizing the French Catholic Church, now you know.
 * I've only marked nations as "Western Church" if I found that their players officially stated their states' conversions in-game. This list includes England, Castille, Prussia, Munster, and Bavaria. I couldn't find a UNC response to the Western Church's conversion request, so the UNC is listed as Catholic.
 * Hinduism got a color change because I had a very hard time distinguishing Hindu military-green and Islamic lime-green on the map. On a related note: if you're a South/Southeast Asian nation, do me a favor and make sure I've listed your religion right; I made my best guesses, but I may be wrong.
 * If you're playing any of the "Native American" civilizations: I got to your religions last, which means you drew pink as your color. If you don't like it, I sincerely apologize. I also apologize for lumping your nations together as "pagan" nations - feel free to post the names of your religions in place of the "X region pantheon" descriptors.
 * Yes, China is listed as "Confucian," which is my catch-all term for the spiritual medley that is Chinese liturgical tradition. Japan is likewise "Shinto" even though it should probably technically be Shinto-Buddhist. It's easier to refer to them this way.
 * Oman is Ibadi, not Sunni, and has been for centuries; I've noted this because it's functionally a separate sect from the Sunni tradition, unlike the other non-Shia Islamic jurisprudence schools. Also, I don't see a single Shia state in existence at this point in time, so I don't yet have a Shia category.
 * Oriental Orthodoxy is a catch-all for the various "non-Chaledonian" churches: the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, the Nestorians, etc. Armenia was Oriental Orthodox, but was reconciled to standard Orthodoxy at the Council of Batumi, so it's listed as regular Orthodox. The Oyo Orthodox Church is also listed as standard Orthodox, since it (presumably) hasn't yet had time to go "heretic."
 * The Phillippines don't match any of the other religions on the map. This is because I couldn't figure out what they were, and didn't want to list them under another heading, so they're a different shade of blue from all the other Buddhist states. Related note: someone convert them so I can color them properly.
 * i made 1427 and i'll remake 1435   Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

=General Discussion=



Ocean Currents and Discovery
Hello Fellow Voyagers! Like most of you, I am intersted in the Age of Exploration, but I would like this pivotal era to be tackled plausibly.

Note: I do not intend to harrass Viva, but he has just given me the reason needed to propse this idea which would help the game a ton.

Now, as some of you may have experienced with me, Viva claims to have sailed around Africa (over 150 years before progressive Europeans under Dias sailed to the Cape of Good Hope.) He also claims to have reached India (about 160 years earlier than De Gama's famed voyage).

Now, Viva will tell you that he has European technology. He will tell you that he has been trading (both overland and via sea) with Castille. I do not doubt that he has been trading and has some European technology. But lets be frank, he doesn't have 1500s era ships.

Now, we are also experiencing a little bit of fun with the Chinese voyage which has already taken place. This can trigger exploration by other people (like my Mamluks), and this is actually plausible. Lets look at ocean currents, shall we? (Those of you from PM2 may recognize these arguments - Viva made them frequently when defending his Vivempire.)



I do not pretend to fully understand this map, but I assume that the arrows indicate which direction the currents go. So, from China, for instance, the treasure fleet can go via the South Equatorial, then down the Aguinas, to the Benguela, and then just do some hard sailing the rest of the way. And from the Mamluks, we were in line when we sailed from the Aguinas to the Benguela, stopping at Kongo, and then going to Benin.

But as for Viva? He would have to sail against the Benguela, and then against the Aguinas, and then against the N. Equatorial. '''Plausible for war canoes? No.'''

How can we counter this problem in the future? Good question. I propose use of this page: Discoveries ; which will be laid out so that a player proposes a discovery (tech or geographical) and then a mod procedes to say aye or nay. A successful proposal would include: Thanks! (TL;DR We need a better system of discovery in order to prevent Viva from sailing to the moon. JK Viva, you are just the example, no hard feeling intended.)  07:31, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Achievement/Discovery
 * OTL Date of Discovery
 * ATL Proposed Date
 * ATL vs OTL facts which Change Things
 * Proof of plausibility (Use of maps, diagrams, Wikipedia, etc.)

One an ENTIRELY unrelated note, I will be really busy this weekend, and out of town, and camping, so I have asked MP to post for me. Please, mods, do not go to harsh on me/him since it'd be hard to handle any issues as I'll be out of town. 08:12, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

I would have to agree some people do seem to be doing exploration and naval technology unrealistically. Kunarian TALK 08:25, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I really like the Discoveries page proposal, sounds like a great idea. Fed (talk) 15:22, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Time to handle stuff. Trade between Africa and Europe had been commonplace for centuries before anyone bothered to sail around West Africa, chiefly through the Sahara Desert. I've stated this on multiple occassions, but appearently it isn't sinking into your heads (not directed at Rex). Unrelated note, Rex, this is like the 500th time you've brought this up. What's your deal?

If you would be so kind as to direct your attention to the right, you'll there is a map showing the trade routes between West Africa and North Africa. Three of those trade routes land smack dab on top of Oyo territory (once the mapmakers correct the map, you'll see Oyo controls the entire coastline of West Africa), meaning that I can and always have had the ability to trade with Europe, just as Ghana, Mali, and Songhai did in OTL. Also, when I began trading with Feud, I requested missionaries as well, which he sent, meaning that Catholicism would have plausibly reached Oyo. Additionally, like Ethiopia, Oyo would have accepted the belief because of their leader. Most historical conversations failed when the leader, the person to whom the looked too for guidance, refuted the belief. King Ezana of Axum accepted it, and converted, leading to his people embracing Christianity. Oranyan was baptized, and embraced the belief, as did his nobles, but for some reason that was deemed ASB. I don't know why, but I think some of the mods better pick up a book and understand it IS plausible.

Now on the matter of the ships. Early in the game, my nation had large canoes much greater in size than a Viking longship (about 60 feet long and carrying 120 men according to OTL examples regarding African military technology). These ships were not sailing against the current as the current is most powerful away from the coast. The canoes I used were used to reach Angola, and stuck to the coast, not away from it. Nowhere did I ever use the canoes to reach Europe or the Middle East, and only made my move to South Africa in a prolonged voyage, but aways had my men stop to forage for supplies and food, since these were professional warriors trained to survive away from home (like in OTL West Africa).

On the matter of the "15th century vessels", they aren't "15th century vessels". Their indigenous craft built by the Oyo for long-distance trade, not European ships. The Oyo sent a trade delegation to Castille in the early 1400s after Mali tried to hike up the toll for trade (in-game post), forcing the Oyo to search for a way away the Mali. Given the importance of the gold trade to OTL West African economies, Oyo had a plausible reason to search for another way. This resulted in them reaching Morocco on their own through the desert (as the Tuaregs would support anyone with enough money though the desert), and seeing how trade was conducted aboard actual ships. Given that Oyo possessed an OTL industry Mali did not (as Oyo and West Africa in general, were historically more urbanized that the rest of Africa), and possessed a natural port for shipbuilding, which the Oyo had engaged in, but not on a seriously level.

Thus, when need to get around the hostile desert arose, as well as need to trade with someone other than the Mali to sustain the economy, the Oyo turned to the sea. Since Oyo and Castille were trading by land, there were many members of the Oyo nation working in Castille (as would be normal for trading missions). Thus, many had much time to observe the workings of ships from their locations, and could give that information to the men heading back to Oyo. Over the next thirty odd years, Oyo spent that time working to build their own ships, not copies of European ships. In the same manner in which the Japanese had the atakebune, the Chinese having the junks, the Arabs the dhow, and the Indians the boita, the Oyo had the yanyan and the nlanla, ships built out of neccessity. They saw the wealth of Europe and North Africa, and needed that wealth to sustain their own. Rather than allow themselves to lose that window of opprotunity, the Oyo made the jump to build ships by trial and error, and got these two classes of ship.

Now onto the currents. The currents would present a problem for manpowered ships such as canoes, but for sailing vessels, no. Being heavier and powered by wind, sailing ships, especially those situtated near the equator, would have an easier time rounding the Cape of Good Hope as opposed to one coming straight north, such as those from Europe. So if anything, an Oyo ship would be able to make the trip as opposed to one from say, England. Now you say "progressive Europeans" in such a way as to indicate that Oyo is neither progressive nor able to do anything seaworthy as it is not European. For the last thirty years, Oyo had a progressive emperor who focused on modernization, and traveled frequently so as to understand as much about his world to help his people advance. If anything, Oyo is just as progressive as any European nation. You speak of fame and progression, but you forget one simple fact. Europe was far removed from South Africa and didn't know about the Cape of Good Hope.

Europe had no reason to round the cape of Africa as it traded through the Byzantine Empire for centuries. Only when the Ottoman Empire took over and threatened the European trade routes did the latter make attempts to get around the Cape, which they only discovered after the fall of Constantinople. Note how Columbus only made his trip fourty years after the city's fall, and only when it became appearent that the Turks wouldn't be good partners. That's the only reason Europe turned to the sea. Before that, all trade went through the East. When the East turned red, the Europeans turned West. Unlike the Europeans who had no logical reason to round the cape, the Oyo are in a position of strength, as they had knowledge of the cape (which Europe did not as they hadn't explored the area yet), and they have good relations with the Arabs and the Europeans. Since the Oyo are located far from Arabia with whom they trade greatly, they have a reason to turn to the sea to reach them, and a monetary reason at that.

So my reasons are perfectly plausible and grounded in fact rather than fiction. Recap time. Europe only turned to Africa after the Turks refused them access to the East, prompting the attempt to find a way to reach the then fabled India. Oyo turned to the Cape out of necessity as it needs to trade with Arabia and Castille without making long trips through the desert, and thus turned to the sea. Since Oyo knows about Europe, it has a reason to trade with Europe. Since Europe has no reason to go around the cape (as the East is still accessible), and most of Africa remains unexplored by Europe, they have no reason to go so far south unless they are trading with Oyo.

Now, I'm sorry about the wall of text, but it was important for my explaination. I think I've explained my point nicely enough Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:39, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yes Scraw. 35 years, just like Japan. Like Japan, Oyo had both an incentive and foundation to do so. Oyo possessed the economic capital to pay for the modernization, the government stability and popularity to push through reforms, and many of the required industries already existed in Oyo (iron foundries, as well as advanced woodworking and stonecutting). Oranyan made education compulsory early in his reign long before the modernization efforts came, and like Japan, sent scholars, experts, and merchants throughout the world (known world) to learn what they could and return with that knowledge. Like Japan's Charter Oath with legalized the pursuit of modernization (effectively demanding Japan modernize), Oranyan decreed that modernization would be the sole focus of his government from the beginning of the game. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:50, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.


 * 20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

The number of tribes that were actually a threat are small, since most of those 30,000 tribes were very small, number only a few thousand members at the most. The Yoruba who make up the majority in the Oyo Empire, a heavily centralized empire OTL and ATL, numbered in the millions for centuries. Only the Akan are a threat, and I've mostly pacified them. Plus, most of the Akan lived in the interior since they had no reason to live on the coast. Most of the food they act was grown or hunted in the interior. Only when the Europeans arrived did the Akan move toward the coast due to the presence the coastal "factories", where the slave trade and Afro-European trade took place. And back to the tribes issue, most of the tribes are related, and OTL didn't fight one another because of that. Their tribal status had more to due with location rather than ethnicity, something any person would be to look up on the internet.

Plus, because of the Oyo and Castille trade agreement, Oyo gets weapons (non-gunpower) and armor, meaning Oyo is leagues above any of the tribes that they out-number and out-tech. Fun fact by the way, most of the 30,000 tribal groups appeared when empires such as Oyo, Benin, Songhai, and Mali, broke up into mini-empires, which the modern ethnic groups of Africa were formed. That only took place in the late-1500s and mid-1600s, far from where I am now. Those tribes also broke up even further with differences in language and belief, another result of the collapse of West African kingdoms during the Colonization era. So there are no massive tribal groups as you and others would like to believe. So you, Scraw, have nothing to fight with, since OTL invalidates everything you have claimed. Your argument has been invalidated. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:28, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Oh. Insults. Classy. When that is your only fallback, you've lost all credibility. You asked me only question, a question I couldn't see since my internet is derpy. Oranyan made education compulsory because he needed as many thinkers as possible as he knew he couldn't rely on Europe for all of his knowledge. If he wanted to advance, he needs to have people who can read, write, and record all of the information needed to make it happen. Another fun fact if you didn't notice (which I suppose you didn't), in Judea, all parents were required to teach their children. The Aztecs (as I suspected), are regarded as the first nation to formally make acquiring an education compulsory throughout the social ladder, as well as create an entire system for it. This took place nearly a hundred years before Scotland passed the Education Act of 1496, the first European nation to do so. And Scraw, just because EUROPE isn't doing something doesn't mean the BIG, VAST, HIGHLY DIVERSE WORLD isn't doing something they aren't. China was the most advanced nation on the planet, and Europe wasn't doing a thing the Chinese were. Does that now mean that China can't do any of the stuff they did because Europe isn't? That belief is ignorant and ludicrous.

You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained). So get your facts straight and do your research before stating something that is clearly incorrect. And maybe when your manners improve, I'll change my tone. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:05, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the note of insults. Viva, lately in chat and elsewhere you have been quite aggressive, calling people names on the chat who are simply asking about your nation. Now we even have you attacking Scraw for something he didn't even say. It seems like any time someone brings up your nation you go into a fit of roid rage. Mscoree (talk)

"You claimed that Oyo couldn't control the land it has because there are, according to your own words, 30,000 tribes (ethnic groups to be exact) in Africa. This is 1436, not 2014. There are not 30,000 tribes in Africa because the nations they hailed from are still intacted. You also claimed that Oyo would have to suffer numerous civil wars and that not having them would be "RIDICULOUS" (your words, caps maintained)."

Let's re-read what I've said so far.

"Listen here you little shit, where the hell do you get off talking to me? Let's go back and review what I said so far:

"All in 35 years. 10/10 would ask Michael Bay to direct.

18:45, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

"But why would he do that? Also, why would he make education compulsory? Even Europe's not doing that.

20:19, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

I would like to ask when and where I "claimed" anything. I merely asked a few questions which you didn't even answer. So please, get your facts straight.

20:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

Now where in all those statements did I say that Africa had 30,000 tribes?

Let's go over what Guns said.

"Viva. There are over 30,000 distinct tribes and ethnicities in Africa. The idea that one nation could actually hold that much land, and keep it from the massive civil wars you should be experiencing, without a significant advantage over the other tribes is RIDICULOUS. When the British invaded, they had the Maxim Machine Gun and the Rifle against assagai spears.

You have nothing, unless you count alien space bats.

20:11, March 9, 2014 (UTC)"

As you can see, you have confused me for the more ignorant Guns.

21:20, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed I have. I apologise for the mix-up. Your lightsabers confused me. Scraw, go back to black and white, its easier and cooler that way.

Ignorant, my ass.

Let's look at the statistics from 1800, shall we? That's the earliest we can really get.

There were 10,000 distinct kingdoms or other such groups, and approximately 3,000 ethnicities (sorry, I accidentally added an extra zero earlier).

Now, even assuming there were half as many groups- and I see no reason why that would be so- then you should STILL have massive issues.

You currently control large parts of Nigeria and Benin. These two areas historically had about 400 ethincities between them. Nowadays, there are only really three major ones left.

You made a trade agreement with Castille... seriously? That IS ASB. In conclusion; there is a REASON that the biggest African empires OTL were Muslim ones in North Africa.
 * 1) You underestimate the racism of this time. People in Europe considered people from the next town over 'untrustworthy foriegners'. Keep in mind that these are people of the same culture, religion, superstitions, skin colour, and general geogrpahic area as them. You have NONE of those in common.
 * 2) There is very little you could offer them. You do not have the capacity to actually send shipments of gold over to them, and in any case, they have no reason to trade. They have steel and guns. You have wooden spears and war chants.
 * 3) The Oyo were heavily centralized OTL because they were very small. If you only rule over people of your own tribe- as the Oyo did, OTL, over the Yoruba- then that's fine. You, however, also control the lands of Hausa and Igbo.
 * 4) Also note that Gunpowder is not a big advantage at this point. Steel and etc is more important.

I'm not even going into your ridiculous conversion to Catholicism.

In conclusion, I think you were railing against the correct idiot in the first place. I completely agree with you over education- in most of Mali, for instance, people are extremely literate, partly due to the effects of the Songhai or Mali empires (and please note that the second of those was Muslim, and the first declined due to them- kind of like Axum).

21:54, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Once again, this is 1436, the height of the Sub-Saharan African empires. Not 1800 during their great declines (and long after the point I stated many collapsed into mini-empires). You say 1800 is the earliest you can get when countless history books state that there were only a handful of ethnic groups in Africa as a whole, and only by the 1600s did that number increase. Historically, most of the empires in West Africa were highly contained ethnic groups, which were large and possessed a signle language, hence the reason they succeded as empires. However, after their collapses, they broke up, and their people began speaking dialects of the original language, leading to the formation of the numerous tribes. So I have no issues as most of the people in West Africa are either Yoruba, Igbo, Akan, Hausa, or Mandinka. I only have three of them in my empire and the Yoruba outnumber them all.

Now, having a trade pact with Castille isn't ASB as you want to believe.

The reason the Muslin ones were bigger is because they were the most aggressive and controlled nearly all of the trade routes in Africa. Henceforth the reason Oyo turned to the seas. And please, tell me why the conversion makes no since. Don't bring it up and say its stupid without giving a reason. If that's all you've got, then your argument makes no sense and only reinforces the stance that Oyo can convert (as you haven't provided a reason why they cannot).
 * 1) Castille traded with Mali and Songhai for centuries, as did many other European empires, and numerous maps of the era showed Mali under Mansa Musa on the same tier of power and respect as European kings (one such map showing him the same size as European kings north of his lands).
 * 2) You don't know that. For all you know I could have thrown them to Castille. There was a clear route to the north (as I just put on page not more than an hour ago), and Oyo being the dominant power in the region, can enforce its trade hegemony on these routes. If you read the posts between me and Feud, I have been trading ivory, gold, diamonds, and exotic fruit with him, things the Europeans literally killed each other over during the time. I have both the capacity and power to trade with them. Also, your statement of Oyo only having "wooden spears and war chants" is incorrect in the highest degree. Benin, Oyo, and Ife all possessed iron age weapons of the same quality as the Europeans (in fact if you did the research you'd see that Oyo and Benin warriors wore and wielded iron armor and weapons). And FYI, the Europeans also wooden spears (wooden shaffs with pikes, spears, and glaives attached to them) and war chants (taunts and drums to frieghten and provoke the enemy). And only a few people have guns right now, not all of Europe.
 * 3) So were half of the European natons Guns. The Yoruba are the largest ethnic group in West Africa right now (OTL and ATL), and make up most of the population in Oyo. There's a good reason it has traditionally been called Yorubaland. Also, the Igbo are to the east of Oyo in Benin, and the Hausa are far north of Oyo. Only the Akan and the Mandinka are in my lands, and their far smaller than the Yoruba (as they have been historically).
 * 4) I don't think I traded for gunpowder yet. Where did you read that? If anything, all I asked from Feud were armour, weapons, and missionaries.
 * One question: What happen to tiny oyo-man ship when big venetian trade lords decide they no like oyo-man trade monopoly in the western coast of Africa? Kunarian TALK 22:49, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter- there were still THOUSANDS of ethnic groups. The kingdoms were caused by the falls- because the ethnic groups previously subjugated rebelled and broke off!

Exactly. Large, and possessing a single langauge and group. You're large, but have lands of 4 tribes. Not one. Each has a different language. Yes, the Yoruba outnumber them- but not enough to actually subjugate them.

Trading with Castille and actually having an agreement with them are two different things. Yeah, and that still applies. The Muslims nations are more advanced than you, they still control all the land trade routes, and the Oyo don't have the technology to enforce hegemony on them, certainly not over Mali- which, please note, is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than you. As for the sea, please. Canoes? Over open sea? I think not.
 * Yes, they did- but they never formalized anything. Mansa Musa, by the way, was a MALIAN king, not one of the Oyo. He was a Northern African Muslim power with basically the same technology as many of them- no gunpowder, but steel and etc. Which the Oyo did NOT possess OTL, and there is no conceivable reason for that to change. Note that I said Steel, NOT iron. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference there- if you do some research, you'll see why. Iron is much softer and weaker than steel.
 * No, you cannot enforce those land based trade routes. You're the dominant power in OTL Nigeria and Benin. You do not have the power to punch through the lands of the Mali empire, which, FYI, is much stronger than your little titch empire. And I said STEEL, not Iron. SIGNIFICANT difference. The Spanish won in the Americas because they had STEEL. The Incan and Aztecs had other metals. Steel was much stronger.
 * 1) Actually, no. At this point in history, most European nations only control their own ethnicities. That changed over the next few hundred years, after they new technologies of the time made it easier to move information and people. Your lands DO infringe on some of Igbo territories, and while you outnumber the other three, it's not enough of a majority to subjugate them. You WILL lose those lands, if the mods ever get their act together.
 * 2) My bad. I was wrong there- I misread your post- missed the non-gunpowder part.

Why the honest fuck would they convert? They have NO reason! It's like Britain suddenly deciding to convert to Islam in the 12th century. Contrary to what you seem to think, most of the powers in your region are either Muslim or Animist.

22:41, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

You continue to say thousands as if there were thousands when there were not. These thousands of ethnic groups only popped up during the 17th and 18th centuries after the African empires broke up and isolation took effect. So hundreds in the 1400s is the correct estimate, but nowhere near thousands. And even so, the Yoruba still outnumber them hundreds to one. Most of the population as I already told you, resided in West Africa, which was the most urbanized region in Africa, period. Those numerous tribes resided int he Central African interior where isolation broke up the populations into tiny groups, which broke up further as new settlements were established. So the ethnic group issues would only persist in Central Africa, not the develop regions of West Africa.

On Castille: The Muslims are on the same tier as Oyo, if not below. The Oyo and Benin empires were considerably more advanced that Mali, Mali only considered the most advanced as there is more information on them. However, recent discoveries have shown that the African empires south of Mali were more advanced than previously thought, and possessed better city building skills than even the Mali. And if you read my post on the African war canoes, in spite of their name, they were as big and deep as a Viking longship, which we all know sailed over over water. Also, I made very clear that the vessels stuck to the coast, where they would be safe. I also stated that they landed regularly to forage for supplies. Go back a few paragraphs and you'll see that very statement.
 * 1) Regardless, the Mali were black, just like the Oyo. So the point is moot, as the Castillians still traded with the man regardless of his ethnicity. Even if the Castillians were racist (a phenomenon that only emerged during colonization and their history with the Moors), you can't control what two players do as the action, ethnicities aside, is plausible in spite of your opposition to it. And Oyo and Mali are right next to each other, they share a border. Oyo and Benin were in fact more advanced than Mali in that they utilized more technologies than Mali, and had more cities (Mali only had three large cities as opposed to the dozens that existed in Oyo and Benin). And I believe iron and steel is where I got mixed up. The West Africans did have steel swords, as evidenced by the Akan akrafene sword, which was made of steel.
 * 2) You have no idea what I'm capable of, and the idea you can dictate what i can and can't is is hilarious. Mali is less populous than all of Oyo, and nowhere near as urbanized or militarized as Oyo. OTL, Oyo could mobilized 180,000-250,000 men. Mali could only mobilize 100,000 men. Mali wouldn't be able to make a dent into West Africa. And my empire is much larger than Mali on the map, do in no small part to the fact that the mapmakers didn't expand Oyo to its proper size (as has been the case with many other players' nations).
 * 3) Your statement on the size of the Yoruba is once against incorrect. Though I control three ethnic groups, the Yoruba expanded into land that neither the Akan nor the Mandinka resided in. The latter two groups lived in the interior where food and water were more accessible given their technologies, but the Yoruba and the Igbo resided on the coast as they had greater knowledge and technology needed to harness the ocean's foods and resources. Remember, the Yoruba and the Igbo lived along the rivers where they built their cities. The Akan and the Mandinka resided in the interior far from rivers and the ocean, and had no interest in it. I expanded along the coastline for a reason Guns. So I do outnumber the other tribes significantly given the spread of the populations of the time. Fun fact, Mali is the Mandinka homeland, meaning I have yet to expand considerably into their lands yet.
 * 4) Understood.

Ethiopia had no reason to convert either. But they did. Men came in and the preached to the people. The people liked what they heard, and converted, like the Ethiopians did. So your point once again is moot. And have you ever thought for a moment that Oyo wants to be set apart from the other nations around them? Your replacing plausibility with your own feelings of what you think is right or wrong. The missionaries can reach Oyo, and the Oyo can choose if they want to convert. I made sure that they did, like the Ethiopians did OTL. For every example you give, there is an OTL example that proves it wrong.

Wow, wrong on so many counts. 00:17, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Hundreds or thousands, the Yoruba did not outnumber the Igbo and the others enough to subjugate them. I don't know where you got your statistics from- mine say that the Yoruba were the most populous- but outnumbered the Igbo only about 4:3, and the Madinka 2:1.
 * 2) Mali WAS stronger- that's not even a question. Larger population, similar technology- less centralized, but FAR richer. I have NO CLUE where you are getting your stats from, but they are totally incorrect.
 * 3) Even if they were not they would still be strong enough that you CANNOT force a land route through their territory OR dominate it. And as for sea routes, the opposing navies- like that of Venice- are way more advanced. Again; CANOES.
 * 4) I don't know what you mean here- I said that some of your land had a Igbo, Madinka, and Akan ethnicites. Then I said that you could not subjugate them.
 * 5) Mali isn't the Madinka homeland in 1400. It was AFTER they caused the FALL of the Mali Empire- in some 150 years- that they moved into that area. Currently, they are much closer to you (not directly on your lands but certainly a sizable portion of their population).
 * 6) Far above, actually. Please note again- Bonoman, Oyo, Axum, Songhai- they all fell OTL for ONE reason. The Muslims. Until the 1800s, when the Europeans came in- your lands were Muslim. Same shit's happening ATL, without some serious cataclysm, because like or not they ARE stronger than you overall.
 * 7) Which, by the way, is an EXCELLENT reason why converting to Catholicism is stupid!
 * 8) No missionaries from Europe yet.
 * 9) The more powerful Muslims are on your borders and ARE trying to convert you.
 * 10) Ethiopia was different- they converted under Axum, before the foundation of Islam. It spread south via the Byzantines. There are NO major Christian, forget Catholic, powers near Oyo- THERE ARE Muslim ones.
 * 11) Basically, my point is, if you open your nation to Islam more, your nation is perfectly plausible- so far, eventually, with your expansion, the other tribes will revolt. But a Catholic nation in West Africa?
 * 12) Annoys the Muslims.
 * 13) Has no reason to occur.
 * 14) And makes it impossible to have a proper land trade route North.

Let's begin.
 * 1) Historically, the Yoruba were the largest, and the Igbo were contained within the area of Benin, which is OTL Igboland. ATL, the Yoruba expanded farther west to expand their settlements, while the NPC Igbo remained in their location. So ATL-wise, the Yoruba are bigger than the Igbo. Plus, Oyo is located on the western end of Igboland, meaning that there are either a handful or no Igbo in my lands, making them a minority if that. As for the Mandinka, they moved further south OTL after the fall of Mali, since at the time, the region wasn't heavily settled. However, a map by the Brits only goes to prove that the Mandinka reside in the fringes of my empire, and are thus a minority. Your using modern statistics which have no bearing on a time before the disruption of the demographics of the time.
 * 2) I believe I told you in chat that I was wrong. You were there but you didn't respond. But Mali got its gold from southern West Africa, where it was mined. The West Africans sold the gold to Mali, who exchanged it salt. From there, the gold went north to Europe and the Middle East. So in reality, all Mali has too its name is salt (still very valuable), but I control the flow of gold.
 * 3) You completely ignored my earier points. I stopped building canoes when I started building larger (read, NON-EUROPEAN) ships with sails. I have canoes (war canoes at that) which are still larger than those used by Mali's river canoes. The may be canoes, but for the third time, they were (OTL and ATL) as big and as deep as longships. Again; LONGSHIPS.
 * 4) I don't even know what is going on, but all I can say is that this map shows that only the Akan lay in my way. And unlike the unified Oyo, the Akan were divided into numerous petty kingdoms, and aren't even shown on the map because none formed a major empire with the exception of inland Bonoman, and the recent Ashanti Empire. The Ashanti only gained a coastline after defeating the petty kingdom of Denkyira, which itself was not that powerful. So I have Akan in my lands, but they aren't a major threat. If they did arise, then they'd be shut down swiftly.
 * 5) Once again I would direct you to the map I brought up. They moved south only after Mali's fall (as you and I already mentioned), but that only proves my point that the Mandinka aren't the numerous in my lands since most of them still reside within Mali, which is still intact.
 * 6) Oyo fell because the neighboring Nupe (fellow Yoruba) took over the kingdom. Bonoman fell because the Ashanti rose in their place and took over. Axum fell because Queen Yodit (Jewish) invaded and cut Axum off from the world leading to a dark age (she is directly responsible for Ethiopia's backwardness). Songhai fell because Morocco sought to control the lucrutive gold trade, and Songhai was already Muslim.
 * 7) I already made the decision to convert to Islam since its safer and closer to Oyo. Plus, Oyo was never converted by the Muslims, nor did they ever try even though Oyo was close to Mali. This was something I already explained two weeks ago, and which the French even recorded in the 1600s when the visited the universities of Oyo-Ile. They stated only a handful Muslims were in Oyo, and they only served to teach the people algebra, nothing more.
 * 8) Converting to Islam will only aid my nation (henceforth my late and admitted needed decision). It'll permit me to justify my expansion to sate the mods, and allow me to expand violently if needed.

Even if you think converting to Christianity is possible, which it may barely be, the fact that Oyo would even want to is implausible and ASB. Why would a nation dominated by another religion, and surrounded by that religion, convert to another, other then to distinguish themselves but inadvertently make their lives harder. You stated that states like Mali traded with Castile for years, and notice how Mali never converted to Christianity during their brief encounters. Your contact is even less, having just created a sea route to Castile, so you would have very little reason to convert to Christianity. It may be possible, but it's also implausible and a bad move as a player anyway. Mscoree (talk) 01:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo had several religions, none of them very dominant. In fact, the Yoruba religion was highly diverse, and as Wikipedia put it plainly, had no one founder. People worshipped as they went, and who they worshipped was their own deal. The belief varied from region to region, and thus, no one party dominated the other. Mali never converted because it was already Muslim. Where do you ever read of a Muslim nation converting to Christianity? Nowhere. Only animist nations, such as Oyo, ever did. In any case, I've made the decision to convert to Islam for plausibility's sake. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

I read these rants in PMII, so I really don't want to read them again. Two things:

1. No one should even be thinking of new world exploration right now, save the Chinese Voyage spinoff. Not the Malmuks, not the Africans. No one. Last time I checked, the rules only allow for OTL events/discoveries to happen at max 5 years prior to OTL.

2. If this is going to cause problems, the mods can do do new world exploration just like nuclear weapons and space ships - they pick the nations. Which would, frankly, work better and more smoothly.

Cour *talk* 20:14, March 10, 2014 (UTC) 21:20, March 10, 2014 (UTC) Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:53, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) The Yoruba did outnumber the other tribes but, again, not so significantly that a general uprising could be contained. You've got maybe 75% of the population (my other stats were for the total population, this is just the Oyo population itself) in the Yoruba- 25% is still a sizable and significantly destabilzing minority. What's more, the Madinka moved NORTH after the fall of Mali- they caused it, by encroaching on Malian territory. But that was 150 years after the POD- hasn't happened yet. As of the 1450s, the Madinka are square bang on your territory.
 * 2) My bad there- didn't see that.
 * 3) STILL not a match for the traders of Venice or England, who made such switches hundreds of years ago. So regardless, your ships are slower and would lose in an actual fight. Don't piss off the English.
 * No, because a combined general uprising is beyond the power of any pre-modern government to contain. Before we had the ability to kill hundreds of people in a few minutes, it would be impossible for a revolt of even 5% of the population to be properly contained.
 * 1) All of those nations were weakened before the actual fall due to Islam. The Oyo are the only ones where the fall, too, was not directly orchestrated by the Muslims. The Songhai were NOT Muslim- that was the Mali, which came after them- and the Morrocans who attacked were MUSLIMS, who had been encroaching on their territory for some time. Axum fell after a long series of border wars with the Muslims from Arabia. Bonoman was weak from wars the Muslims first.
 * No, they moved NORTH after the fall of the Mali- the Mali fell OTL due to the raids from the Madinka moving north!
 * 1) Yeah, education in Africa was historically a lot better than it is currently.
 * 2) Good.
 * 1) At this time, most of the region (once again it was called Yorubaland for a reason) was unsettled, or setted by the Yoruba. The Mandinka live farther to the northwest, and are nowhere near my lands with the exception of my small border with Mali. And the Mali ARE Mandinka. Most of their population was Mandinka, and only the lands to the southwest of Mali are Mandinka. Everything south of them is Akan (OTL Ghana).
 * 2) Understood.
 * 3) I never said they were the same strength as European ships. And once again, you don't know what my ships are capable of, and are going solely on personal opinion rather than fact. I never published any details of the ships, so you have nothing to compare my ships to other than the fact that they are the same size as carracks and galleons. And speed is entirely dependent on size and the number of sails. As for England, their navy was garbage in the 1450s, and wasn't a match to anyone OTL. In fact, the English only began to build better ships in thr 1500s, but even then they were constained purely due to the fact they were destitute as a nation because Europe isolated them after Henry VIII split from the Catholic Church. Everyone hated them. Even in ATL, England's navy is still no match for any of the other nations despite the growth. Too be honest, both Oyo and England are on the same level navy-wise purely because the Castillians burned down the English navy before the game's start, forcing the English to start from the beginning, long before they established a true shipbuilding industry (which only emerged under Henry VIII and Elizabeth I).
 * 4) There have been countless uprisings throughout medieval history, and none of them turned out well for the peasents. The last man to stand up to the English king was actually killed when he and the King of England came close to "negotiate" the terms for peace. Even the Hussites who put up a good fight were eventually massacured to a man by the Germans and the Austrians. There has never (as for as I know) been a successful uprising by the serfs in any medieval nation, with the first such to succede taking place in France. In 1783. Containing a rebellion, especially when I have most of the population on my side, is well within my means.
 * 5) Bonoman was never attacked by the Muslims. Ever. It was destroyed by the Ashanti, who themselves weren't even Muslim. Oyo was destroyed by a fellow Yoruba kingdom which wasn't Muslim, and that nation in turn was destroyed by the British, not the Muslims. Like I said before, the Muslims never advanced south of Sokoto, which was the capital of the Sokoto Caliphate, and itself located in northern Nigeria, removed from the animist nations of southern Nigeria. On Songhai, it was indeed Muslim. Askia the Great was a Muslim, and though he didn't force his people to convert to Islam, he did enforce its protection in Songhai. The upper classes of Songhai were Muslims, while a considerable portion of the lower classes stuck to their traditional beliefs. But for the most part, Songhai was a Muslim nation. In fact, the second sentence in Songhai's Wikipedia page states, and I quote: "From the mid-15th to the late 16th century, Songhai was one of the largest Islamic empires in history."
 * 6) I'm not trying to be rude Guns, but I don't know where your getting your information from. Mali didn't collapse from Mandinka raids north, as its population was Mandinka. The British maps of the region in the 1800s that I showed not to long ago even call the land of Mali "Mandingo", showing that it was the Mandinka homeland. Mali collapsed because the last Emperor of Mali had three sons who fought amoungst themselves, and allowed the city of Gao (the capital of Songhai) to break away, and eventually invade and conquer Mali as it descended into civil war. Mali fell from the inside, not from the outside.
 * 7) True that.
 * 8) I suppose so.
 * I agree, I even suggested a method of doing such things, which was simple. However it was not taken onboard in any manner. Kunarian TALK 20:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't ranting, stating my defense. As for new world exploration, I don't think that was the goal of anyone until 1500. And finally, the latter suggestion would be rather unfair to the players who have spent their time developing their navies for that purpose. For instance, the mods would most likely select Collie because his nation is Portugal (and a fellow mod), even though Collie hasn't focused on developing his navy. On the other hand, Feud would probably be passed over even though making his navy a first-class force was his goal. I believe that the mods should stay out of the matter of who discovers what, since most explorations were by mistake, and many nations are better placed to find these new lands as opposed to the ones the mods may pick (most of whom I have a strong feeling would be European like the last game). Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:09, March 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * One by one.
 * One by one.


 * There's a reason that some nations are more likely to discover the new world than others. And mod intervention would help prevent everyone from discovering and colonizing within a year or two of each other. It goes unspoken that this would lead to chaos and a 'Scramble for America' (which would no doubt be riddled with ASB claims). - Guns 02:49, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Viva, you are not only advocating ASB on this talk page, again, but are making an ass of yourself. Cut it out. Lordganon (talk) 10:32, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't start the argument so I don't know why your pinning this on me, plus, let's just be honest here, your claim of ASB is tenious at best. All I'm advocating is the actual usage of existing edvidance to back my claims. I don't see whats wrong with that. And I don't know why you and the others fear looking at the links which say your wrong (seriously Guns just said Songhai wasn't Muslim, when the very second sentence of its Wikipedia page says it was one of the largest ISLAMIC empires in history). Don't call it ASB unless you have proof its ASB. Everything I've said is backed by proof. Most of what Guns said I've just disproved. I've proven everything I've said is both plausible and accurate. You have not. And please tell me LG, since your so intelligent (not an insult), why is it when the others provide information with no sources and routinuely proven they are wrong (as Guns just did), called plausible and creditable, but when I provide sources, and regularly research the regions I'm working in, I'm called ASB and making an a** out of myself? I mean, what are you guys afraid of? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:45, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I quoted multiple sources, actually, and you disproved nothing.

Unfortunately, a large part of my argument was somehow deleted?

See where it says " One by one."?That was me, actually, not LG.

I had a bunch of sources in there too, but I can't undo that without deleting his post, so...

About the Songhai- meant Ghana. My bad there. Still in the original Malian territory, so it makes no difference. Their fall WAS caused by Muslims. Not even a question...

Actually, no. Very little you said was plausible OR accurate.

And it's "you're", not "your".

We're afraid of you saying idiotic things like that. We've all quoted a number of sources, no one else agrees with you- generally, in this situation, it means that you're wrong. Stop with the Africawank.

21:38, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, if your post was accidently deleted, just go into the page history, open that edition of the page, and copy it back to where it was I can do it for you if you want. Mscoree (talk) 22:16, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it looks like it might still be there, although you signed with five tildes instead of four. Mscoree (talk) 22:21, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

What sources did you use? All of the sources I used I linked you too. I didn't ask about the One by one thing. I thought it was a troll so I ignored it. I thought you meant in the context that the nations were destroyed by crusading Muslims, but that point is moot now. Everything I said came from a history book, research site, or publication on the continent, all from people who study Africa for a living. So what I said was plausible and accurate, unless you can prove otherwise. I don't care about grammar right now, so the point is moot. The people who don't agree with me are the same ones who say Songhai wasn't Muslim (even though it was), or that there were 3,000 tribes in Africa in the 1400s (even though there weren't as those were formed in the 1600s). So in the situation, the guy who study's Africa routinuely and actually links his sources is generally correct, unless of course, you can prove otherwise. I'll be an Africawank because I can prove said wank is plausible. You cannot. I mean, you said Mali wasn't Mandinka even though from its own medieval constitution, the people referred to themselves as the Mande. They were Mandinka. When you make such a massive assertion that a major empire wasn't what it says it was, even though historians say they were, how on earth can you tell me anything about a continent you just proved you know nothing about? That, Guns, was idiotic, far from anything I've said thus far. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:02, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Overall, Viva, you haven't proven Guns wrong on anything - more or less the opposite is true, actually. Your bias on the matter is so incredibly obvious that it disturbs me. And here I thought you had gotten better about it. Guess not.

You're trying to get a "wank" in without plausibility. ASB.

And, you're still acting like an ass here. Cut it out. Final warning.

Lordganon (talk) 12:13, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

I Have a Question
If I quit as the Ashikaga state can I come back and pick a new nation to play as in pm3 - Scarlet (aka Shadow)

Umm... not really. Cour *talk* 20:05, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Venetian Empire
Total: 91
 * Location: 10
 * 10 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 10 (Aegina) + 10 (Athens) + 10 (Candia) + 10 (Corfu) + 10 (Kaffa) + 10 (Ragusa) = 80/8 = 10
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 1 (Attackers) + 1 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 28
 * 4 (Venice, L) + 4 (Epirus, L) + 3 (Aegina, LV) + 3 (Athens, LV) + 3 (Candia, LV) + 3 (Corfu, LV) + 3 (Kaffa, LV) + 3 (Ragusa, LV) + 1 (Naxos, SV) + 1 (Negroponte, SV) = 28
 * Military Development: 9
 * 16 (Venice) + 10 (Epirus) + 8 (Aegina) + 8 (Athens) + 0 (Candia) + 20 (Corfu) + 8 (Kaffa) + 8 (Ragusa) = 88/10 = 8.8 = ~9
 * Economic Development: 10
 * 6 (Venice) + 12 (Epirus) + 14 (Aegina) + 14 (Athens) + 12 (Candia) + 2 (Corfu) + 14 (Kaffa) + 12 (Ragusa) = 74/10 = 7.4 = ~7 +3 (Venice, Kaffa) = 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 0 (Defenders only)
 * 5 (Ragusa)
 * Motive: 13
 * 3 (Economic) + 5 (Democratic Support) + 5 (High Morale) = 13
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit count: 1632
 * UTC: 10:26 = 1*2*6 = 12
 * Total: 1632/12*pi (3.14159265359) = 427.25660088824
 * Nation Age: -1
 * -15 (Venice, Antique) + 0 (Epirus, Maturing) + 5 (Aegina, Mature) + 0 (Athens, Maturing) + -5 (Candia, Young) + 5 (Corfu, Mature) + 0 (Kaffa, Maturing) + 5 (Ragusa, Mature) = -5/8 = -0.625 = ~-1
 * Population: 7
 * 7 (7 digits) = 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -6
 * -6 (6 vassals)

Morocco
Total: 59 x 1.25 = 73.75
 * Location: 25
 * 25 (Morocco) = 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * 2 (Co-ordination) = 2
 * Nations: 4
 * 4 (Morocco, L) = 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/88 = 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * 10 (Morocco) = 10/74 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * 5 (Morocco)
 * Motive: -7
 * 8 (Defend, not cripple) + -10 (Government not supported) + -5 (Low morale) = -7
 * Chance: 6
 * Nation Age: 5
 * 5 (Morocco, Mature) = 5
 * Population: 9
 * 7 (7 digits) + 2 (larger by less than 5) = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
Venetian Victory


 * ((91/(73.75+91))*2)-1 = 0.1047040971168437
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*1)) = 0.0523520485584219 = 5% (one year)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.0785280728376328 = 8% (two years)
 * (0.1047040971168437)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 0.0872534142640364 = 9% (three years)

Discussion
DO NOT EDIT. I or an agreed mod shall edit the algorithm. Please comment if you wish to be added in some form. Kunarian TALK 12:07, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Im sure you have more population Quashi (talk) 16:41, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know I only have around 2 and a half million over my whole empire, as my page says. The Moroccans were powerful and able to resist Castile before they entered a period of civil unrest (they are in it now, as with OTL) and if Castile has around 4,500,000 just in Castile and they were able to resist that for a while then surely Morocco has something close to that. I'm pretty sure that they have more in simple terms. Kunarian TALK 17:28, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Alteration to Expansion Rates
Hey, I wanted to suggest the alteration of the expansion rules, to all you to take territory in the black through military campaigns, you know, like in OTL. I don't recall reading anywhere where nations peacefully expanded into unknown lands by tiny amounts, taking hundreds of years to grow to the size of Texas. That just doesn't make any sense. Most of the large empire in history expanded to conquests (like Russia, the Mongols, Rome, China, United States, Ethiopia, Egypt, so on and so on), and did so in short amounts of time. You could slap a greater penalty onto the expansion rates, such as -2 or -3 for every armed expansion. The expansion rate would be double or triple that of the peaceful expansion, but you'd suffer more issues since you just conquered a chunk of some tribe's land. Just a thought. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:50, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the expansion stuff is not that easily solved. We have to take into account the power of the nation doing the expansion, the population of the land being expanded into, and what kind of land it is. For example, if a very powerful nation expands into a desert with a zero population and owned all the habitable land around it (ex: Australia) it would be fairly easy to take the remainder in a short period of time. However, if a mediocre nation with little to no present influence in the area attempted to do the same, it would be harder.

18:27, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Understandable. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:04, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Viva, when the Tsardom of Russia was established they expanded an average of 35,000 square kilometers per year into Siberia. Also, I calculated how many square kilometers one pixel on the map is equivalent to, it's ~72 square kilometers. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Ottoman-Georgian Land Transfer
Chris - as I couldn't find a user page for you, I'll just post a map of the "land corridor" I'm asking for here. The area I'd like to purchase is in burnt orange; it roughly corresponds to the area east of Lake Van. I imagine the area is sparsely populated at this point in time, but I would of course be willing to repatriate any Turks in the corridor to the western side of the border line at my own expense, and would grant your merchants trade access through the corridor. TankOfMidgets (talk) 18:52, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes that looks fair (after all, the Empire probably wouldn't have won if it wasn't for the Georgians in the coalition; we owe you something). Agreed. ChrisL123 (talk) 23:43, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Spread of movable type printing
Okay I think we need to manage this carefully, especially as in PM3 there seems to be a habit of everyone suddenly getting all the technology.

In OTL, the spread of Movable type printing was SLOW. I mean so slow that by 1890, it still wasn't present in Brazil, most of Africa, a lot of Asia and hadn't even spread to most of the Balkans or Ukraine, Belarus and such.

Considering how slowly it spreads, the country of origin ( which it looks like there might be two atm, both Venice and Pskov, fun things happen ) would have a monopoly for about 20 years as it spreads around their nation (NOT THEIR VASSALS).


 * Was invented in Mainz, followed by another independent design in Venice. Mscoree (talk)
 * ummm...are you guys forgetting somebody here? Pskov invented the press aswell...-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 16:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * No you didn't. It's been retconned, as I've said many times. Mscoree (talk) 18:11, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was told that Hesse was getting the Printing Press. Blocky858 (talk) 20:50, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

After the 20 year start-up period, just like in OTL, it'd spread to about 3 nations adjascent to the country of origin (again not to their vassals), these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated neighbours too. During this time the country of origin can spread the technology to its vassals that share a land border with it.

After this it would take about 10 more years to spread to 6 more nations, these would be the most technologically advanced and liberated nations within the trade range of the current holders of the technology. During this period the country of origin can spread it to all their vassals and the first takers can spread it to their vassals that share a land border with them.

Then another 10 years later, it spreads again. Then there's a period of stagnation in the spread. And so on and so forth.

I'll make a table because I really think this needs to be managed carefully so we can enjoy the realism and constraints that do actually come with such developing technologies.

Keep in mind the spread might not be to player nations, but to relavently advanced nations

I really suggest we adopt this or we'll miss out on the interesting situations that arise out of such constraints rather than having every nation doing everything itself. This will also encourage players to work together to make interesting history.

Of course the decision upon where printing spread should happen upon reaching the next stage, because players may be able to change their policies to get the technology. We should not decide eveyrthing for all the stages immediately as that removes part of the fun. Kunarian TALK 10:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Kunarian that technology needs to be regulated to some degree. Maybe not just for printing presses, but for all major technologies. I think this system might be more of a guideline then a set-in-stone system, regulated by the moderators for implausibility, but it is definitely a start. Mscoree (talk) 19:59, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, however this system is simple and makes life easy without being annoyingly fiddly. Kunarian TALK 20:04, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I also think this would be a great idea, however in a map game, there is a fine line between overregulating and having too many rules, and having too few rules on this. When it comes to technologies, discoveries, etc, I think there should be a system of this sort where it is simple and easy to work with, but prevents loads of ASBdom. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * Exactly, this doesn't have a million special rules or a group of requirements that everyone will work towards (breaking the RP and making the game more about min-maxing). It is just a case of regulating the spread of technology so that it spreads in a similar fashion to how it did in real life, rather than the rather predictable "1440: one nation has a printing press, 1450: every nation on earth has one!" that Principia Moderni can sometimes fall ill to. Kunarian TALK 21:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

My main problem is with the inital spread. You see, what if it is a great mighty nations surrounded by a bunch of nations of peasants and weak economies? I think it should spread to major trade partners and powerful nations after leaving the mother nation. Trade can take things really far, y'know?

21:30, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I kind of agree with Scraw, althought the above model makes sense in general. For Mainz for example, they are surrounded by small states of the Holy Roman Empire, so it would take decades for the printing press to leave central Germany. In this specific case you'd think it might spread to Austria, given that Mainz is one of their biggest allies and nearly a vassal at this point, or at least to some of the major states of Germany. I think we should use this model, but also consider spreading the invention manually through moderator events at times, following any OTL trends. Mscoree (talk) 22:43, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

Um, sorry, but the The printing press didn't spread slowly, it was only limited by the travelling technology of the time. So I don't think this idea makes much sense, Fed (talk) 23:08, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * So it spread slowly. As it was limited by the travelling technology of the time. So it makes perfect sense. Kunarian TALK 23:12, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also can I just say that if you don't have any system in place soon, then it'll become unmanageable. If you won't accept a perfectly logical and reasonable system then at least present one of your own. Kunarian TALK 23:14, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * A system can still be useful. Perhaps this GIF will help us adjust it. Mscoree (talk) 23:23, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I used the gif to make it. This is the closest you can get to it. Kunarian TALK 06:38, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

You're giving 15 HRE states and Austria a press by 1500, while IOTL all of the capitals of Western Europe had aress by this time. Fed (talk) 12:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm getting the feeling you haven't read any of this. If we look at the two origins that are appearing ATL (from Mainz and Venice) then we end up with something (assuming nothing changes in game, which it will almost certainly) like this:
 * 1440: Mainz, Venice
 * 1460: Mainz, Venice (and adjacent vassals), Austria, Byzantine Empire, Milan
 * 1470: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and adjacent vassals), Byzantine Empire (and adjacent vassals), Milan (and adjacent vassals), Hungary, Italy, Castile, England, UNC, Brabrant-Holland
 * 1480: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and adjacent vassals), Italy (and adjacent vassals), Castile (and adjacent vassals), England (and adjacent vassals), UNC (and adjacent vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and adjacent vassals), Bavaria, Prussia, Aragon, Portugal, France, Provence
 * 1490: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and adjacent vassals), Prussia (and adjacent vassals), Aragon (and adjacent vassals), Portugal (and adjacent vassals), France (and adjacent vassals), Provence (and adjacent vassals)
 * 1500: Mainz, Venice (and vassals), Austria (and vassals), Byzantine Empire (and vassals), Milan (and vassals), Hungary (and vassals), Italy (and vassals), Castile (and vassals), England (and vassals), UNC (and vassals), Brabrant-Holland (and vassals), Bavaria (and vassals), Prussia (and vassals), Aragon (and vassals), Portugal (and vassals), France (and vassals), Provence (and vassals)
 * If I remember Fed, England, Castile, France and the UNC aren't 15 HRE states, so there goes that theory of yours. AND LOOK! Practically all of Western Europe has printing presses, shock. and. horror. It spreads not to the person next to them like some dead snail being kicked along as slowly as possible like you suggest, but along logical lines of trade and vassalage. Obviously the mods should make minor changes (such as filling in all the minor states that are unconnected to players so that they get them) but shouldn't be throwing the printing press around as they see fit nor planning a very long OTL based line of nations that shall and shall not get it when and where.


 * Further the spread is gradual and easy to track. Compared to what a adhoc on the go player spread will be, which is everyone has one in their back garden before the end of the year. And a completed mod iron fisted direction destroys player creativity and means that we might as well not play and just go get out a game of Risk, because removing player influence on the soft side of the game (technology and culture) turns this into a war game only with mods telling you what you'll be doing outside of wars. I can play a war game anytime, and I won't waste time on a war game online where I might get f'd over because OTL or a mod says so. Kunarian TALK 12:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I sound a bit sharp but I get a bit fed up when I present a system that does exactly what OTL does and then someone doesn't read or look at what I've done and blurts out falacies. That sort of thing really rubs me up the wrong way. Kunarian TALK 13:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now adjusted as Fed recommended, I think this system will work very well and be very plausible. We can try out it out on the printing press and see how it goes. Mscoree (talk) 18:15, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

No need to be rude. I did a mistake, so sorry, Your Almighty Highness. May I apologise or are you preparing the execution? Fed (talk) 18:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look I'm sorry I don't want to have an issue, I just got riled up and didn't control myself. Kunarian TALK 22:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo (Attacker)
Total: 100*125
 * Location: +20
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Nations: Oyo (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +16
 * Economic Development: +14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +16 (+7 +4 +5)
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit count: 4,755
 * UTC: 2*2*1*2 = 8
 * Total: 4755/8*pi = 1867.284133477556
 * Nation Age: 0 (1400)
 * Population: +9 (5,710,442)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Benin (Defender)
Total: 63
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Benin (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +3
 * Economic Development: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: +2
 * Nation Age: 0 (1180)
 * Population: +7 (2,000,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * (125/(63+125)*2)-1 = 0.3297872340425532
 * (32.9)*(1-1/(2*7)) = 30.55%

Oyo can claim 30.55% of Benin.

Georgian-Jochid Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 69
 * Location: 17
 * 20 (Georgia) + 20 (Armenia) + 15 (Gordyene) + 15 (Adiabene) + 15 (Ardalan) + 15 (Golden Horde) = 100/6 = 16.667 ~= 17
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * 1 (attacking) + 2 (central coordination) + 2 (high ground)
 * Nations: 4 (Georgia, L) + 3 (Armenia, LV) + 3 (Gordyene, LV) + 3 (Adiabene, LV) + 3 (Ardalan, LV) + 4 (Golden Horde, L) + 1 (Adyghea, SV) = 21/4 = 5.25 ~= 5
 * Military Development: 62/5 = 12.4 ~= 12
 * 12 (Georgia) + 14 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 6 (Jochid Ulus) = 62
 * Economic Development: 72/5 = 14.4 ~= 14
 * 10 (Georgia) + 10 (Armenia) + 10 (Gordyene) + 10 (Adiabene) + 10 (Ardalan) + 16 (Jochid Ulus) + 6 (Mamluk aid per Treaty of Adana) = 72
 * Expansion: -15 (Georgia: 1426, 1427, 1433, 1434; Jochid Ulus: 11 turns over past 15 years)
 * Infrastructure: 0 (defender only)
 * Motive: 7 (economic + non-democratic governments supported by people)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.0 6 0
 * Nation Age: -2
 * 0 (Georgia: maturing nation, 1412) + 0 (Armenia: maturing nation, 1412) - 5 (Gordyene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Adiabene: young nation, 1427) - 5 (Ardalan: young nation, 1427) + 5 (Jochid Ulus: mature nation, 1440s) = -10/6 = 1.667 ~= 2
 * Population: 17 (7 digits + 10 for 5x superiority: Georgian coalition has 1.35M, Jochid Ulus should have ~4.6M, Azerbaijan has 1.175M)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2 (Georgia and Armenia - 1426)
 * Vassals and Puppets: -5 (2 vassals and 1 puppet)

Sultanate of Azerbaijan (Defender)
Total: 54
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (central coordination)
 * Nations: 4 (Azerbaijan, L) = 4/21 = 0.2 ~= 0
 * Military Development: 5/62 ~= 0
 * Economic Development: 5/72 ~= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive: 7
 * 8 (defending heartland from non-fatal attack) + 4 (non-democratic government supported by people) - 5 (low troop morale: lower development numbers on all fronts and chance below 1)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 116
 * UTC: 0:17 (1* 7) = 7
 * Total: 116/7*pi (3.14159265359) = 52.06 0
 * Nation Age: 0 (maturing nation - 1414)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result
If my calculations are correct, the Georgian-Jochid Ulus coalition should win the war and can take up to 12.20% of Azerbaijan, depending on the war's duration. Assuming the war takes 3 years, the Georgia-Jochid coalition can take 10.17% of Azerbaijan.
 * ((69/(54+69))*2)-1 = [(69/123)*2]-1 = (.5610 * 2) - 1 = 1.1220 - 1 = .1220 = 12.20%
 * (12.20%)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 12.20% * (1-[1/6]) = 12.20% * (5/6) = 10.17%

Discussion
Mods - I went ahead and constructed the algorithm for my war to give you a starting point. Depending on who else joins the conflict, the numbers here may change. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Adjusted for Jochid Ulus' entry into the war and for provisions of the Treaty of Adana. TankOfMidgets (talk) 00:29, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

So, given that my coalition will have fought for 3 years, here's my proposed territory change. The burnt orange portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to Georgia, while the dark yellow portion of Azerbaijan will be ceded to the Jochid Ulus. You can count pixels if you're curious - 10.17% of Azerbaijan is 267 pixels, which I've split evenly between myself and the Ulus (and yes, I'm OCD enough that I actually counted pixels). If I can get a mod's approval for this, we can wrap the war up quickly and easily. TankOfMidgets (talk) 17:53, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

Castile (Attacker)
Total: 133
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Castile (L), Granada (MV), Cyprus (MV), Austria (L), Luxembourg (M), Brandenburg (M), Bohemia (M), Moravia (M), Venice (L), Aegina (MV), Athens (MV), Candia (MV), Corfu (MV), Kaffa(MV), Ragusa (MV), Naxos (MV), Negroponte (MV) 62/4 = 16
 * Military Development: 116/10 =12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 16
 * Aegina: 8
 * Athens: 8
 * Candia: 0
 * Corfu: 20
 * Kaffa: 8
 * Ragusa: 8
 * Economic Development: 121/10 = 12
 * Castile: 15
 * Granada: 15
 * Cyprus: 4
 * Austria: 15
 * Venice: 6
 * Aegina: 14
 * Athens: 14
 * Candia: 12
 * Corfu: 2
 * Kaffa: 12
 * Ragusa: 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Castile: 5
 * Granada: 5
 * Cyprus: -5
 * Population: +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Morocco (Defender)
Total: 79
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Morocco (L) = 4, 0
 * Military Development: 10, 0
 * Economic Development: 10, 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 10
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Vassals and Puppets: 1.25

Discussion
'''Somebody check this please?? -Feud'''

You need to add in Venice. Kunarian TALK 06:51, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I will add Venice soon, but just so you know, Feud and I agreed I will be granted the city of Melilla as a Gibraltar-sized port city on the coast of Morocco. Any other acquisitions you wish can be granted. Mscoree (talk) 10:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't because if you look at my earlier war with morocco I conquered it already. Kunarian TALK 12:24, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here's a map of land you can and cannot take from Morocco because of the war I fought with them before this one: Sorry if this causes issues but I won't be giving up any of that land. Kunarian TALK 12:28, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kun we agreed Morocco is mine, and taking away large portions of Morocco which are originally is mine isnt okay. Undercutting my influence in the Area isny okay in the slightest.

Also we didnt take the whole country but Kun i hope you realize that the land near Tangiers i enumerated before that i wanted that land... your seriously making it ridiculously hard for me to take jack shit When ive led 2 out of the three wars against morocco.

I'm not wanting to cause conflict but I declared war prior to this war and took those lands. As of that war they are mine, end of. But I am willing to do is exchange those lands for something of equal worth, I don't want to undercut your influence but I can't give them up for nothing. I won't hold them against you or refuse a reasonable exchange, but I'm not giving up lands that took me three years to take without at least equal compensation. Kunarian TALK 15:54, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Ive Resolved to take the nice long segement next to your two areas on the atlantic. I Would be willing to purchase the areas under Tangiers though.
 * Purchase it for what? if soft play such as money was worth anything in the hard aspects of the game I would consent but I need some land in exchange, or assistance in taking land. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Would you mind exchanging Melilla for an area of equal size on the coast? Mscoree (talk) 17:47, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I might exchange it for that, it depends on the division of Morocco and the lands you offer. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can pick any area of equal size to replace the one I'm taking, plus some more lands depending on what we obtain now in this third war. Mscoree (talk) 18:06, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, Venice still needs to be added, we could have 20% of the land or more. Kunarian TALK 18:00, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Final division, including the lands gained in Venices war, asuming we get 20% or more with the addition of Venice with vassal support. Kunarian TALK 20:26, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Moscow Land Purchase
We offer to purchase this plot of land (Land wanted is in green). We offer 5,000 Zolotnik coins for the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

I agree with your offer, since I do not need that land.  ...  Razor   -  the Razor    01:49, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Feud called this implausible on chat, and I'm inclined to agree. You're not selling half of your nation. Fed (talk) 12:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also 5000 Zolotniks is equivalent in modern worth to about 1,000,000 dollars. That's how much you might buy a very expensive house for. Not half a nation. Kunarian TALK 12:25, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be fair, he's selling an area that I estimate at first glance is probably around 500,000 square miles maximum, for about one dollar per square mile. This area is a sparsely inhabited section of northern Siberia of little to no use at the moment. In OTL the Louisiana Puchase was more than 800,000 square miles, and sold for only three cents per acre (forty two cents in modern dollars roughly), so about nineteen dollars per square mile. Adjusted to 1800's dollars, and factoring in the vast resources and significance in the central united States, as opposed to northern Siberia, I'd say it's not that bad of a deal. Mscoree (talk) 18:04, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Louisiana territory was sold to get rid of a financial burden on the French. It was colonized, then determined it wasn't worth keeping, whereas this is  half  the actual country.
 * But also while Louisiana was colonized to some degree, the area in question is basically just abandoned, aside from maybe a few towns and some natives. Perhaps Razor and Ed can adjust the borders slightly to a more plausible level if there are disagreements. Mscoree (talk) 18:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I knew the Louisiana purchase would be brought up. Louisiana was a colony, with under 10,000 inhabitants of white nature, that was going to be lost one way ornanother in the next ten years, served absolutely no economic or military purpose after the fall of Haiti and was, all in all, useless. IIRC, the territory you're selling holds several cities (Ustyug, Vologda), is relatively populated (today that area holds a few million inhabitants), and it's part of Novgorod's heartland; it's been Novgorodan since Kievian Rus'. Very different from Louisiana. Fed (talk) 18:45, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. To be honest when Ed came to me with this original idea I had no idea he was taking so much, which is why I'd recommend he takes less. As for the concept itself, I think it's fine. Mscoree (talk) 19:16, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I edited the map so there is less land in the purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Also I own Ustyug and Vologda and they both belonged to Muscovy prior to this purchase. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

So is this thing actually happening? Mscoree (talk) 01:34, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Future plans
On a completely unrelated note to everything, I hope I can prove to people in this game that I would be Mod material. I love PM, and would happily mod for the next PM4 (although I would probably not play due to time commitment issues I see in the future combined with being able to be a better unbiased mod), I would have tried to put myself forwards to mod for this if I felt well enough at the time but I didn't.

However on a side note, I would just say that if I ever decide to leave as Venice, I would almost certainly act as an informal mod or put myself forwards to mod because I think that I would be able to do a pretty good job. The effort I put into Venice would go into making mod events and replying to players and I would not want to leave this game (co-operative timeline as I call it) with one less contributer. However i don't think I could do it atm because I'd not have enough time and Venice, being a main nation in history, could cause me problems with accusations of bias. So for the now I'll do Venice only.

I just want to put this out there because to be honest, a statement of intent helps people mull the thoughts over before it happens and so people can be aware of it and assess me before anything does occur. So reply or not, or just read. I'm just speaking my mind. Kunarian TALK 13:27, March 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * On the topic of Kun as mod, I'd have to agree. Kun has quite helpful, friendly, kind, etc. while pointing out implausibility and sharing my goal of making this game balanced between power-gaming and role-playing, not an easy task. The posts he posts as Venice are very detailed and plausible and he shows a great understanding of history at the time. However, I believe this is his first game, and we'd need to wait and see if Kun is truly mod material over the next batch of turns. Mod events are some of my favorite parts of a Map Game, and I believe Kun will excel in that category. If a vote comes out when Kun has been active in-game for longer, I'd definately support him. Macedon_Shield.pngBow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!! Rome_Shield.png
 * On a quick fact check, this is my third Principia Moderni nation, I've played Venice in PM1, Prussia in PM2 and Venice again. Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Kunarian is a very helpful and friendly player. he shows initiative by thinking through systems for inventions, and it seems he would be a nice addition. Mscoree (talk) 14:10, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support. Kunarian TALK 14:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I support Kun as a mod. He's plausible and tries to ensure everyone else is without bias. He uses facts and potential exceptions to adhere to OTL while also making way for the possibility for ATL to take place. I vote for Kun as mod. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:08, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I approve. 9/10 would vote for.

20:40, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I think Kun would be a very good mod too, but after today's debate about Morocco I think the mod system should be reorganised in order to avoid any Nova-like cases again.

Unable to post
I will be offline due to an unforeseen commitment, so will be unable to post until at least Easter. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

I may be able to take charge of your nation until that time. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

About A Mod Event I Want To Happen
Can you make a mod event where all the other states of japan attack me and I lose. I want toswitch my nation to Munster in Germany. - Scarlet (A.K.A Shadow)

Timurid Vassalization and what's wrong with it
With both Timurid players, I have noticed a problem with their vassalizations. They are all literally "We influence x for x turns of three". To me, this seems like a very implausible way to vassalize nations left and right. They do not even state what this influence is, so it's entirely possible that the "influence" is unrelated to the "vassalization". But rather than make that the main point, here is my main point. The Timurids, for both players and every turn, have implausibly expanded through vassalizing nations on their borders. They have not built alliances, not gained royal marriages, they do not even had trade rights in any of the nations, yet they are able to sway the Kings and Sultans and Rajas to become their vassals through "influence"? I believe some rules need to be established on vassalizing criteria that is a little more strict than allowing "We influence x for x turns out of x" to pass as plausible vassalization, and to punish those who have been doing this knowing fully well how unfair and implausible it is to players who actively seek to build relations with nations before they attempt to vassalize them. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 00:08, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I do agree, specifics are good. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:26, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I could try and argue with this, but due to recent private events I won't bother with it. I'm just going to say that if we are going to make vassalization actually plausible and fair, we shouldn't take in just the ratio of teritory between the one vassalizing and the one being vassalized. We should also take into consideration the difference in population and the difference in religion and culture. Now I know that this will hurt my plans, but I really do think we should do this in a fair way. Although I do have a question... If this was such a problem why didn't you say anything earlier?

I've tried with earlier talk page posts, and some of the very early vassalizations were fair, but many of the recent ones have not been at all (Some of Nova's too). When I've tried to talk to mods about it on chat without having to make a talk page, all I've gotten before was "Yeah, that's not right" and no follow up. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 12:10, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I see, the problem of mod inactivity is familiar. Although I will try to make my posts more detailed and plausible in order to both make the game fair and to make it more interesting.

That still ignores the fact that the Timurids vassalized most of Northern India in 30 years... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 13:02, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

It took the effing British Empire at least two hundred years to solidify their control over India. And that was the entire flipping subcontinent. We should drive them back to their border. --Yank 22:37, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

France (Attacker)
Total: 65
 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations:France(L),Burgundy (LV),Bourbon (MV), Lorraine (MV), Berry (MV) = 13/4 = 3.25 = +3
 * Military Development: +30/10 = +3
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: -3
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit count: 3909
 * UTC: 6:31 (10)
 * Total: 3909/10*pi (3.14159265359) = 1228.0485
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +28 (16.900.000 - 18.000.000 Pop here Demographics of France 1400-1450)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: -4

Tunisia (Defender)
Total: 77 *1.25 = 96.25
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Tunisia (L) = 4
 * Military Development: 10/30 = 0
 * Economic Development: 10/0 = 10
 * Expansion: 5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +8
 * Chance: 8
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7 (A few people told me that tunis had 1 million to 1.5 million so whatdahell lol)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result
The Tunisians can take up to 19.254 of France and Co., presumably along the French coast of the Mediterranean.
 * ((96/(65+96))*2)-1 = 0.19254
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion

 * Only other mods may fix this, However if you are an user and want to point out a mistake please post it in user corrections. STILL NOT FINAL Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

User corrections

 * Anything you may wanna say
 * Well, Tunisia is an NPC, and has not been to war in the past 15 years, so it had 15 years of development. This means (as per the rules) 5 years of Infrastructure, 5 of Mil., and 5 of Econ. I have gone ahead and reflected this in the algo. I also added the *1.25 bonus for Tunisia. Thanks, 06:34, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * So essentially i don't take anything nor the tunisians do (I mean they have a million and a half population in comparision to france near 18 millions it would be stupid or ASB for them to take even the smallest part for longer than a few years). Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)
 * If you had made Burgundy not a leader your score would go up by about twenty points. Mscoree (talk) 03:31, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ashikaga

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 1 (attacker)
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 8/10 = 0
 * Economy: 8/8 = 1
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 654
 * EST time: 9:13=9
 * Chance: 460/12*3.14159268 = 120.4277194
 * Expansion: -6
 * Motive: 3 (economic)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 7 (5 + larger)
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 32*1.25= 40

Hatekeyama

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage : 0
 * Nations: Hatekeyama (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 10/8 = 1
 * Economy: 8/8 = 1
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Chance: 7
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 13 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack, High Morale)
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 5
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 57*1.25 = 71.25

Results
If the war lasts one year (the minimum), Hatekeyama will take 13.9% of the Ashikaga lands.
 * (71/(40+71))*2-1 = 0.27927
 * (0.27927)*(1-1/(2*1))= 0.139

Discussion
Ummm.... I don't even..... how...? But seriously, this algo needs a massive revamp. Here are a few fun facts about what your algo states: Well, jokes aside, I guess I will fix this algo also. 06:54, March 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hatekeyema has a population between 10 and 99.
 * You have a population between 10,000 and 99,999, but it is also less than 5 times as great as the population of Hatekeyema (10-99)
 * You state that Hatekeyema has not done anything in the past 15 years. Comeone, lets get some scores for infra., mil., and econ. dev.
 * Hatekeyema's location is not where it is being invaded!?! Raise it to 25.
 * A new tactical advantage is +1 for being defender?
 * The thousandths place of 120.4277194 is apparently 2, not 7.
 * 20+1+1+2+9-5-1+10 (37) times 1.25 is equal to 149, not 46.25
 * How does an attacker get an infrastructure bonus, when this is prohibited?
 * How do you have Econ./Mil. scores that high...???? I would love to know, so I can win my next algo!

Mamluks
Total: x1.25 = 48.75
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Mamluks (L +4) = 4/15 = 0
 * Military Development: 14/15 = 0
 * Economical Development: 14/15 = 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: -20
 * Motive: 13 (Hegemony, High Morale)
 * Chance: 8
 * Edits: 3311
 * UTC: 11:39 = 13
 * 3311/14*pi (3.14159265359)
 * Total: 742.9866
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -10

Rebels
Total: x1.5 (Bonus given by mod event) 87
 * Location:25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Oman (L +4),  Yemen (L+4), Swahili (L+4) = 12/4 = 3
 * Military Development: 15/14 = 1
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Swahili: 5
 * Economical Development: 15/14 = 1
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Swahili: 5
 * Infrastructure: 15
 * Oman: 5
 * Yemen: 5
 * Swahili: 5
 * Expansion: 0 (These nations while independent have not expanded once)
 * Motive: 9
 * Chance:6
 * Total: 742.9866
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -10

Discussion
Why exactly did you split all the rebelling nations into separate algorithms? They're all fighting together against you. You also need to add recent wars for yourself, as well as several other things. Mscoree (talk) 00:08, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Also you forgot a few rebelling states, and all of which have a x1.5 bonus. Mscoree (talk) 00:11, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

wrong motive bro, theirs is atleast 10 and for yemen and oman their nation score is 4 as both are allies. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

Alright, i tried to correct this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:27, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Collie, I do not think you understand the way this war is being fought. There are 3 different wars going on. One in Nubia (which already ended, the algo. was a bit late in coming). There is one in Yemen, and there is one in Oman. All of these wars are independent of each other. Also, Nubia never declared independence. (Check the mod events, if you'd please.) The worst it can be is in partial disarray, but I have taken care of that. The inclusion of Nubia was done prior to me finding it out they never were truly independent. Come on chat if you care. 07:33, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

You know what, now that I look back, I can see a better picture of events. So, Nubia never declared independence, so we can rule them out. I declared war (well, invaded, because I do not recognize them as independent states, so I did not "declare" war, but am still waging it) the very year that those states rebelled - 1438. This gives them 0 turns for development. As for expansion, Yemen expanded 10 turns of the 15 turns prior to the war, as did Oman. So, that is a -20 on their expansion. 09:05, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

U only have -1 in recent wars? really? Quashi (talk) 17:50, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Just because they expanded under your leadership does not mean that they get a penalty. If anything you get the penalty since you were technically the one expanding, or just not at all.They are all also fighting in one war, not separate. Also -1 for recent wars is way off. Mscoree (talk) 20:12, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Also again they all have a x1.5 bonus. You didn't even include all of them, plus they are NPC's, so they get NPC values, not just zero. This algorith, still requires heavy work. Mscoree (talk) 20:14, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

At this point all you get is 14%.--Yank 22:28, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

And now it's 8%. I doubt it's worth it now.--Yank 23:28, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

Plus half the stuff still needs to be added. Mscoree (talk) 01:21, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I finally got around to fixing some of the stuff. May still be some errors, but definitely a lot closer.Mscoree (talk) 03:11, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

There are disputes upon whether either side should have any development. One fair thing to do would be to just have both sides be zero. This algorithm is currently locked until more moderators can view it. Mscoree (talk) 04:13, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

To account for a giant loophole in the NPC rule, the mods have decided to set the rebel scores all at five, which should have been done in a moderator event anyway, according to Rex. Mscoree (talk) 04:31, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ryukyu and China
in OTL Ryukyu is a Vassal state of the Ming Empire(1429-1644) if no one realized, they paid tribute to china in exchange for knowledge and ships.  Jbwncster   (Talk)

Ashikaga Shogunate
On the Japan talk page for Principia Moderni III, it says that the Shogun controls "t he state of Toki (...) Also the state of Shiba has been taken over" as well as the home state of Ashikaga. Is this the case? If so, does this mean I can add them as my vassals on the country list? Ozymandias2 (talk) 22:36, March 15, 2014 (UTC)

No they don't. Shadow (now Scarlet) attacked them but only took small parts. 23:50, March 15, 2014 (UTC)