Holy Roman Empire (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

This page is not only a page of information about the Holy Roman Empire in Principia Moderni II, but it is also a safe haven for members to conduct diplomacy and discuss issues facing the nation. The things discussed here are SECRET  and are not public knowledge.

History
A history of the Holy Roman Empire, 1450 - ?

1450

 * Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III confirmed as the emperor.

1451

 * Frederick III announces his engagement to Helena Palaiologina, niece of Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI Palaiologos.
 * Construction of the Munich Cathedral begins.

1452

 * Marriage of Frederick III Hapsburg and Helena Palaiologina in Vienna.
 * Fall of the Byzantine Empire.
 * Frederick III adopts ceremonial position as the Emperor of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire. Succesion of Rome dispute hereby ended.
 * Anglo - Holy Roman Treaty signed, creating an alliance with England.
 * Greater French - Holy Roman trade begins.
 * Bishop Gregor Rus of Bavaria becomes Grand Arch Bishop of all Bavarias

1453

 * Birth of Frederick Constantine Hapsburg.
 * Bavarian Unification begins.

1454

 * Bavarian Unification is complete.
 * War of Imperial Succession.
 * Cambray joins the Holy Roman Empire.

1455

 * Birth of Maria Anna Hapsburg.
 * Aragon joins the Holy Roman Empire.

Map
This is the map at the start. Please keep this for record keeping. Don't forget to edit the full sized version.



Map at the end of 1454 showing the Bavarian Unification



Player Members

 * Austria
 * Bavaria-Munchen
 * Bohemia
 * Burgundy
 * Brandenburg
 * Milan
 * Saxony
 * Swiss Confederacy

Non-Player Members

 * German States
 * Altmark
 * Anhalt
 * Ansbach
 * Baden
 * Bar
 * Bavaria-Ingolstadt Collapsed and absorbed by Bavaria in 1456
 * Bavaria-Landshut Joined the Grand Duchy of Bavaria during war of unification
 * Bavaria-Straubing Annexed by Bavaria-Munchen as part of the Bavarian Unification Treaty
 * Berg
 * Brunswick
 * Breman
 * Brunswick
 * Cleves
 * Cologne
 * Friesland
 * Grisons
 * Hesse
 * Lauenburg
 * Liege
 * Limburg
 * Lorraine
 * Luxembourg
 * Magdeburg
 * Mainz
 * Mecklenburg
 * Metz
 * Munster
 * Nassau
 * Paderborn
 * Palatinate
 * Pomarania
 * Salzburg
 * Stassburg
 * Sundgau
 * Thuringia
 * Trier
 * Ulm
 * Utrecht
 * Valais
 * Westphalia
 * Woffenbuttel
 * Wurttemburg
 * Italian States
 * D'Asti
 * Ferrara
 * Florence
 * Genoa
 * Lacques
 * Mantua
 * Modena
 * Monaco
 * Montferrat
 * Piombino
 * Saluces
 * Savoy
 * Siena

Lack of a Capital
So I came up with a crazy idea tonight. Since the Holy Roman Empire has no capital (until we reach Rome), why not make one in a centralized location? Who's with me?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:32, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I propose somwhere in the Rhineland or Alsace-Lorraine.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:38, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking southern Wurttemburg. Nice and central to almost everything. I sort of have a naming scheme picked out.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:41, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I am in agreement with MP at least until we reach Rome, what is the name? These are not the droids you are looking for. 03:17, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

All right, as Pita says, let's blow up that bridge when we get there. In the meantime, let's discuss improving our nations and then start planning our battle plan. I have the first instances of our battle strategy mostly planned out on MP's talk page under the section "Das Plan" so feel free to check it out.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:21, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Posting
As all of us member state players know, the plan is afoot. So let's discuss it here, as our nations. Also, I have my post here, because I shant be up 9:00 EDT. If someone could kindly post for me, it would be highly appreciated. In other news, it says "first post" because I was about to post. Anyways, whomever posts for me, please remove that if someone else already has posted. (Which is very likely.)
 * Brandenburg (woohoo first post XD) decides to support Austria's claim to the throne, since they are German comrades, but is disappointed that its own house is not on the throne. To ensure continued existence of the HRE, all member states are strongly advised not to leave the Empire. Meanwhile diplomats are sent to Austria to discuss a possible centralization or strengthening of the Empire.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:00, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Time to Become Truly "Roman"
Unless anyone objects, I plan to have the current Holy Roman Emperor marry into the line of the Byzantine Emperors, so that the HRE will actually be "roman" in some sense. Trust me, this is legit and I have done my research. If it works, then perhaps we can salvage what remains of the Byzantine Empire.

Please keep this family tree here:

Helena Palaiologina, daughter of Theodore II Palaiologos, who was the brother of Constantine XI Palaiologos, the current Byzantine Emperor. She will marry the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick III the Peaceful.

Does anyone object to the plan?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:45, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Nay!

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:49, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg has spoken! And would the leader of Brandenburg offer a reason to this "nay?"

For the record, since Austria gets to conquer so little in the game, I figure that I won't need as much resources towards Germany, other than to help you guys.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:52, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I meant nay as no objection.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:05, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Accept my apologies, I misunderstood.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:07, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Good Idea. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 03:12, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

The upcoming world war
Hey when you guys planning on unifying? Cause us Muslims are planning a large empire as we go all super-expansionist as a supposed Mahdi appears. Perhaps you can use our Caliphate's European invasion as the necessary immediate cause for you guys unifying? Also don't worry it'll collapse after a decade or so, which then you guys will probably be the dominant world power. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:10, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. We will consider it.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:23, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Unification Treaty
Okay, so the Byzantine annexation didn't really go my way. No matter. We are still somewhat Roman now.

More importantly, we have this. All player members need to see this. Let me know if you are here.

The treaty will be made when all are present, or tomorrow.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:41, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

What about by my requests in regards to all the other Bavarias near me. I am sending propaganda, how long till they agree with me annexing them? Also Hungary needs to be watched, I do not trust themThese are not the droids you are looking for. 23:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have not forgotten your wishes to become a united Bavaria.

You could probably do that now, but be careful.

Hungary will be watched with caution.

Even if you cannot annex all of Bavaria straight away, it is one of the provisions of the treaty, so we will support you.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:48, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

MAJOR CRISIS
Okay we have a problem. Venice and the Papal states are going to attack Genoa, our main financial supplier. So here is what we are going to do.
 * 1) Brandenburg holds off the war against the Teutonic Knights.
 * 2) Financial and military aid will be sent to the states in disarray (Saxony and Bohemia) if they also help in the war.
 * 3) We will divide the land after the war accordingly.
 * 4) If we work together, we should get Milan, Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg, Saxony, Bohemia, maybe Burgundy, Genoa, maybe Switzerland, and the other Italian states, along with England, so we should be fine. If we work together.
 * 5) Who's in? Sign below.
 * Monster Pumpkin (talk), Austria
 * These are not the droids you are looking for. 01:31, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Bavaria
 * Callumthered (talk) 01:35, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Saxony. (I will give whatever help I can, just not too sure how much that will be.)
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Branddenburg
 * Also, how do we (religiously) justify going to war with the Pope? Callumthered (talk)
 * We shall have to accuse him of betraying the beliefs of the Catholic Church. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the Teutonic War is over, but I need someone do me an algorithm. I don't fully understand the new one yet. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:39, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Or we could wait for them to attack first. The Teutonic war is over? Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:40, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 01:42, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Milan.
 * The Swiss Confederacy will provide military support, we are close to Venice and could participate in a invasion of mainland Venice, and for justification, we will claim that the papal states have become corrupted, focusing on politics far more than religion, and we have the right to ownership of Rome, however they(papal states) can stay in OTL Vatican City and maintain a defense force not to exceed 1,000 troops. I Am Walrus (talk) 01:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * We can decide the fate of the fallen after the war. What is important now is that we all work together. Remember, we will all share power after this war and unification (which does not mean we will take turns or anything like that), and the Austrian Emperor cannot rule forever. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:49, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
MP next year I plan on forcefully reunifying all of the remaining Bavarias, can you bring the might of Austria to bear?These are not the droids you are looking for. 01:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

If you help in Italy and the disorderly states, then I will. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:30, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I have already been sending aid since they asked (Saxony and Bohemia).

Swiss annexation of Savoy
I have plans to invade and conquer all of Savoy, with the first assaults beginning in 1457. Is this fine with you guys? I Am Walrus (talk) 14:49, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

ACTUAL UNIFICATION TREATY
Sorry about the obnoxious title, but this has to be obvious.

So let us get started, shall we?

The Basics
Under this treaty, all states will submit to a central authority that will in exchange grant the states a degree of autonomy.

The Emperor
The Emperor, or Kaiser, will be the head of state of the Holy Roman Empire. He will have an annoyingly long title, which I will not write out now.
 * Each state will agree that the Emperor is the highest level of authority in the Empire except for God. This will be changed to be on par with the Pope when/if we conquer him.
 * The Emperor will rule for life, or until he voluntarily steps down.
 * The Emperor will be elected by the Conclave of Kings, who will be the leaders of each state. Entry to the Conclave is hereditary, and each member must vote for someone other than themselves. I'm not sure how doges work, so if someone can explain that, that would be nice. Are they like dukes?
 * The Emperor is also in control of the military. The conclave declares war.

Religion
The official religion of the Empire is any form of Christianity. Other religions are allowed on the condition that they do not threaten the government or the state religion.

State's Rights
Each state has certain rights that are given by God and cannot be taken away by the state.
 * Right to govern internally within reason.
 * Right to maintain a state militia (friekorps, Gendarmes, etc) to help keep the police.
 * Right to choose a capital.
 * Right to pass local laws that do not contradict state law.

Rights of the Federal State
The state can do all of the below.
 * Create and maintain the armed forces for the general defence.
 * Issue a common currency.
 * Levy taxes to provide for the well being of all.
 * Direct foreign policy.

The Laws that Bind us All

 * The states must support the legitamate Emperor, regardless of who that is, unless he goes against the laws respecting the states.
 * The Conclave of Kings elects the next Emperor, nothing else.
 * Each state must pledge to help the Holy Roman Empire and each other in the event of war, calamity, etc.

Other Things (Federal Capital, etc)

 * The capital, until we claim Rome, will be a city built in southern Wirttemburg, named after Charlemagne, the First Holy Roman Empire. (Charlemagn? Need help with the name here)
 * There is one, and only one, Bavaria.
 * The current Emperor is Frederick III Hapsburg of Austria. Upon his death, that title will go to the Conclave of Kings, who will elect the next Emperor from among them.

Signatories
Sign here if you agree to the terms issued. Read carefully and understand what you are signing! His Imperial Lordship King Andreas Kribt the Fierce, Lord and Protector of all Bavarias and future Sovreign of WurttembergThese are not the droids you are looking for. 23:46, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * His Majesty Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III Hapsburg of Austria . Monster Pumpkin (talk)
 * His Highness the Electorate of Brandenburg, Duke of Berlin, King of the Crown of Aragon and Navarre, and its states, Karl I and Charles II or Brandenburg and Aragon [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:30, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Francesco I Sforza, Duke of Milan. Bauglir Zero (talk)

Discussion
If you have any doubts, please post them here, and they will be addressed. I know that the issue of Genoa and Savory and such will be brought up, but I will discuss that when someone brings it up.

Also, Aragon is in the Empire?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:21, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Darn it, I wanted to have a dynastic emperor, not an elected one. Also, may we invade each other? If not I want a bill saying that I can annex my hated enemy Pomerania, and that Luxembourg will be made a Brandenburgish vassal upon Brandenburgish revolution against Luxembourg, and that all playing member sates should be added to algorithms for individual states atacking other nations. Doges are basically dukes. Aragon can be a part of the Empire if you want, but soon Brandenburg and Aragon will basically be one. I'd also like assurance that everyone will help me, Brandenburg against Luxembourg. Deal? Only then I sign. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.23:30, September 9, 2012 (UTC) Also, the proposed title for Fred: His Majesty Graced by God, King of Austria, and Kaiser of the Germans, Imperator of the Holy Roman Empire, Representative of the men, Frederick III Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:37, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

i like the idea of a Kaiser but i'm still not sure about remaining in the Empire, maybe as part but my major concerns would be centering ourselves as world powers and in the case of any of the members of the empire discover america the rest of the empire has the same 15 years free travel and conquer deal or no? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:38, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have to have an elected Emperor, or else the other states would be mad, and we can't have that. If your king is wise, powerful, and supports the other kings in politics, then it is likely that yours will be elected.

Austria will help against Luxembourg, because of what is below.

This damn problem is annoying me. So let me reveal the basics of my plan:


 * States can take over other states for the sake of gameplay. These states will still exist in the eyes of the Federal Government, and history will remember them as still existing.
 * States should be taken over through subterfuge, not war.
 * Here is an example: Milan effectivly bribes the Doge of Genoa into supporting Milan indefinitly. Genoa is now under the influence of Milan (basically they are annexed at this point). The Doge of Genoa is still in the Conclave of Kings, and the Empire still has two administrative states, Genoa and Milan.
 * Bascially, Milan controls Genoa in game, but the HRE still counts Genoa as existing and lore-wise Genoa will still exist.

Is that fair?

Burgundy, can you address your concern more clearly? I don't understand.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

what i was trying to say, is if any of us manages to reach america shouldn't all receive some rights over it, after all we are a nation so to say it Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:48, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Diplomacy
Any other nation may use this area for Diplomacy.

Allies

 * England

Trading Partners

 * France
 * Venice (de facto)

Discussion
What about the Holy League (Castillan proposal)? Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 02:37, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria personally supports the ideaThese are not the droids you are looking for. 02:39, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

What is that again? I never saw it. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 04:52, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you to not declare war on the Papal States and Venice, as Milan is getting into the war against Genoa, so it would help unifying the empire and Milan will become your main financial supplier, and its more related, as a monarchy, to your kingdoms, than Genoa, a republic, is.

Also, the Holy League (in fact League of León) will be a treaty which objective is to defend ourselves from the aggressions, specially the upcoming Muslim caliphate. The excuse to create it is the recent lost of Castille to Granada and to secure peace in Europe (since the Hundred Years War just ended and the unification of the HRE will cause many wars, we need to agree to not cause troubles between ourselves). --Galaguerra.

Now I remember Bauglir told me he was gonna support you against Venice and the Papal States, then I'll also support you, but I want some lands in the Aegean Sea and Greece, or at least the Aegean Sea. --Galaguerra.

...This is interesting. I'm gonna get attacked! So much for diplomacy Monster Pumpkin. You do realize that attacking the POPE and the most powerful trading nation simultaneously will not end well for either side? HRE states will revolt, France and Spain which are heavily religious regions will help (maybe/maybe not since they are player nations), Poland, Hungary, Denmark and France would view this as HRE aggression. European trade would be crippled allowing the Ottomans and Mamluks huge profits as they block trade with no-one to stop them. The Renaissance would end as its heartlands are smashed by war. Christianity would crumble and Europe would be pushed back to the stage it was in 100 years ago. Also about Venice joining the HRE, I was considering it, but I'm no longer sure since you are so willing to backstab. Scandinator (talk) 05:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC) Scan, this was only if you attack Genoa. We know not to attack the Pope, if you looked back at our previous discussions, you would see that. And your actions towards such seemed to indicate that such a thing was no longer part of your goals. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 05:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Genoa is the last rival trade league in Europe after the Hansa were destroyed by Denmark. They also took Kaffa, a Venetian settlement and divert away some of my trade from the Levant. My primary goal right now is to get rid of the Genoan trade league and I don't mind if Milan takes Genoa and I only get the islands and Kaffa. In fact that would be a good way to put away our past disputes. So Milan, treaty to take out Genoa? Scandinator (talk) 05:58, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Milan and I kinda have a deal on that already. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I also wanted an island in the Aegean Sea. --Galaguerra.

We will see. Right now we have to wait and see how Venice reacts. Probably nothing to worry about (I hope). Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC) {| class="diff diff-contentalign-left"
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Naming Convention
As a kind of wonder, is it possible to rename my nation once its demographics/size etc are different. I posted as the new Grand Duchy of Bavaria as it now contains two seperate entities and one of them is a duchy, Just wanted to make sure the name was right.These are not the droids you are looking for. 06:10, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * colspan="2"|
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I don't see why not. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * }

Perfect! It reflects this time period so well. Dukes were controllers of large provinces but by the 15th century the head of a town would sometimes be called a duke. Therefore several duchies tried to distinguish themselves. Austria led the charge as the Archduchy of Austria, followed by the Grand Duchy of Burgundy. Scandinator (talk) 06:29, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg!!!
Right then, I am the horse and I wish to throw off my master! I want to make Luxembourg lose power over Brandenburg! Come Germans, let's get Luxembourg off our case! Any help from y'all other states is appreciated, and I have a few things to talk with Bohemia. Does Bohemia have a player? Anyways, if we can get rid of Luxembourg, I would like some Austria, Bavarian, Saxon, Burgundian, and anyone else aid against the Teutonic Knights by the 1470s or 1480s. Meanwhile, I think we should be friendly with France and not England as France will be more beneficial to us and our plans. We also need some land route to connect the Empire with Aragon, which will get intertwined with the empire through union with Brandenburg. Another thing: I really need some sort of coastline, sea border, etc etc. So I want to know if I can sign a treaty with Pomerania to give me some small patches to land that connect to the sea in exchange for x% of the profits from future gains of the area. To expand, you have to be next to a damn ocean so that you can go places! You can't walk to America!

In other news, I want to know if you folks would be interested in getting a friend in the Indian region. My pick is Vijayanagar. If you all agree, I shall tell Imp that eventually we shall put his nation in control over all of India, Central Asia, and parts of Indochina and Persia? Sound good? It'll take a lot of helping shmelping.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:10, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

A friend in India you say???? Yes Bavaria supports you it will. Algorithm scraw will help. Yoda much thanks is givenThese are not the droids you are looking for. 04:29, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Right then! Since Aragon will, sooner or later, be somewhat a part of the HRE, it seeks HRE help against Navarre and maybe Bearn! Who is with Aragon, and who is with Navarre and/or Bearn? Any and all are welcome to answer to either call!

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:29, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

The irony here is Aragon has a royal marriage with a member of the Luxembourg royal family which rules over Brandenburg. Overthrowing them loses that marriage. Scandinator (talk) 05:36, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Say what now? The KING of the Crown of Aragon is married to the sole heiress of the Brandenburg electorate. (Fred).

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:47, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

So the original Brandenburg Dukes? If yes then great!Scandinator (talk) 05:49, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.05:54, September 9, 2012 (UTC)