Talk:Provisional Indiana (1983: Doomsday)

The Power of the National Guard
You have indicated that the governor and the whole government were destroyed on Doomsday. And then you introduce the National Guard as the security forces that take charge and allow the new government to finally come into being. I've noted that even in states that lose their sitting government, the National Guard seems to be the stand in armed forces. The problem is, they are under the authority of the Governor and the Adjutant General. The local command structure of the National Guard, and the State Defence Forces, if available, probably would not act "on its own," but might chose to work at the command of the highest local official available (even the mayor, if no regional state or federal official is available).SouthWriter 02:26, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Each unit has a commander, in which would take control, and try and meet up with higher command, which would of been in Lafayette or Fort Wayne, also if you think about Indiana's motto, "Crossroads of America." Indiana has a very big road system, which isent a hard drive from Lafayette to Terre Haute etc., and in this case the Mayors woulden't have a time span to create a government.--Sunkist- 02:37, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

And to Cannon, Indiana's Air National Guard wasen't hit.--Sunkist- 02:39, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Of course each unit has a commander. But the guard - both the National Guard, and the State Defense forces, work under a civilian command structure -- the governor and other elected officials to be exact. It cannot be expected for miltiary personnel to just "take charge" of a government in the United States. It may happen in certain cases, but not in an organized way between unitis. However, with is a contingency plan in place, certain things would immediately get done by prearrangment. A national emergency, like doomsday, would bring units together locally to control panic, etc., but the actual governing of the people will most certainly be by "civilians." A commanding officer who "declares martial law" on his own authority is tantamont to a military coup.

I'm not saying the National Guardmen would not "go rogue" and establish regional city-states, but I am quite sure that they would not be the vehicles used to bring the whole state together. Would the highest ranking commander automatically become the first governor (or "president")? When the mayors finally get together, who is to decide which one will be "in charge" ? And will the military junta that has come together in that particular area go along with this plan?

I just want this to be viable, so you can graduate it sooner, Sunkist. Work with us on this. SouthWriter 02:56, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

I was reading the earlier post which sunkist stated that the government was destroyed here is my problem traditionally the Head of state be that figurehead ot president is the commander of the armed forces but this article states that the government was destroyed with no CiG the army would go rogue --Owen1983 13:31, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Philip Sharp
Sunkist, Sharp was a US representative serving in Washington, DC in September of 1983, as was Senator Dan Quayle. As far as I can tell, Congress is almost always in session during the last week of September. You are going to have to come up with some local politicians who were in charge of major cities in order to man your government in 1984, or whenever you chose to bring this government together.

Also, you throw Sharp into the fray, commanding the National Guard, before you introduce him in the following paragraph. I separated the paragraph (a formatting problem) but have yet to rework that new section to be more readable. I have no problem cleaning up spelling and grammar, but I will never change anything substansive without first asking. Could you go over that paragraph about the guardsman establishing order - read it out loud and see if you wrote what you were trying to say. I had a little trouble following what you wrote. SouthWriter 04:59, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

it was stated early on in the 1983 timelone that evacuation of congress was not possible so its likely Philip sharp would have been killed when Washington was hit--Owen1983 13:35, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, Owen. Use a little spacing, okay?


 * Yes, it is assumed that most of Congress did not make it out. I am not sure how good an assumption that is, given they were not literally "in session" at the time. However, since they were scattered in their homes (hotels, condos, or wherever they lived while in Washington) on Sunday night, they would have been "on their own" along with the rest of the population. Most of those that escaped would have made it into the countryside of Maryland, Virginia, and West Virgina (as far as you can drive in an hour on back roads (or getting a headstart on the rest of the population on the larger highways). SouthWriter 14:09, August 25, 2010 (UTC)




 * [PLEASE use the [Enter] key at least once before responding!]




 * another problem I found is that government officials in congress would be evacuated because if the senate is dead including the president congress would be the defacto US government --Owen1983 22:25, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately for congress, it is a lot easier to evacuate the President and Vice President (separately) than it is to evacuate senators and representatives on such short notice. You have a point, though, about the government continuing without the president -- an order of succession is in place to fill the spot. This time line saved the presidency, though, and let the Congress fend for themselves. I figure some of them escaped, but as to who is anybody's guess. SouthWriter 01:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

To Kentucky's Cannon, Baron Hill is still alive, I'm putting him going with Baron back to Indiana.--Sunkist- 22:35, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * A case in point to the remark above. Baron Hill was probably in or around Washington at Doomsday. In order to have a plausible story, you would have him escape. That would probably mean being in the front of the line with a full tank of gasoline, and an older car that would run without its electronics. Large order, but it would get him out of town and on the way back to Indiana. Getting him to Lafayette, on the other hand, will take some doing. SouthWriter 01:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to bother you again, but who is this "Cannon" fellow? SouthWriter 01:32, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think this "Cannon" is Baron Hill, a young state rep from Seymour. So that leads to my next question - and possible answer. (I aim to please).
 * How did Sharp get back to Indiana? And you need to clarify that Hill would one day become a senator in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. In 1984 Baron Hill was a young man of 26, serving in Indianapolis (which was destroyed) or maybe home in Seymour for the weekend. If he was home, which is likely, you have to get him and Sharp together in the meantime. Sharp had to have called Hill just before he ran out the door to escape the Washington area. Weeks later they could have met in Seymour (assuming Sharp made it through the chaotic gangs of West Virginia and eastern Kentucky (see Yank's VR) . That in itself would be a thrilling paragraph. Is it feasable that Hill knew the congressman from another district? SouthWriter 02:17, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Philip Sharp and Baron Hill were both Reps at the time.--Sunkist- 10:35, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, nevermind, forget I said that.--Sunkist- 10:36, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was so looking forward to the adventure of getting Sharp back to Indiana! I think a US congressman making it home would make a good leader.  His knowledge of what is going on in the five hundred miles in between would be invaluable.  Contacts he makes in Kentucky in those weeks as the Fort Knox government gets started would be crucial.  You and Zack may be able to tweek his article to acknowledge some contact even early on. SouthWriter 16:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

VIABLE
I did some research and getting Phil Sharp back into Indiana would be viable becuse Indiana was a republican state since the 1930s --Owen1983 17:30, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Owen. But the fact that the man is a Democrat, and the ability to escape being vaporized to face unruly gangs in two states on the way home, have nothing to do with Indiana's overall political makeup. An idea of where Sharp was living among the suburbs of Washington DC would be a good piece of information. SouthWriter 18:27, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Phill Sharp
Phil Sharp would have been in Washington as congress was in session up to the 16rh of November of 1983 --Owen1983 01:15, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you read other posts, Owen, you would realize that that has been acknowledged. However, it is also been noted that DD was on Sunday, and Congress was not meeting that day. The congressman were in their homes in and around Washington at the time. Knowing that, Sunkist put together a scenario to get him back to Indiana. The following section contains my update of that scenario for due consideration. I apologize ahead of time for making changes where I felt warranted. I therefore, post it here rather than doing a radical rewrite of the affected paragraphs.

Then we could make an assumption that most members with transport headed to tho country, ie Virginia and Maryland. But it's safe to say that Washington had Communal fallout shelters for those who couldn't leave --Owen1983 14:55, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * We can assume that anyone and everyone with transport would hit the roads as soon as they believed Washington to be a target. And that would be anyone who had the TV on, and most likely those that only had radio.  To avoid panic, any shelters deemed capable of sustaining a direct blast overhead would probably be made available as well.  However, civil defense was not a big priority in the 1980's.  "Peace through strength" assumed no one would attack the strongest nation on earth.


 * As for congress and other officials, Greenbrier was available, but only in the case of an orderly evacuation in time of mounting pressure. A sudden attack like this one left no room for such an evacuation (since they were scattered to their homes).  Deep basements of some structures might have survived the numerous airbursts that struck, but if there were ground strikes (inefficient, but more certain) there was probably no hope within the metro area. SouthWriter 18:28, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Doomsday
Three nuclear blasts over Indianapolis completely destroyed the city. No known members of the government of Indiana survived. Grissom Joint Air Reserve Base was destroyed with Newport Chemical Plant, all in which were near the small cities of Peru and Brazil. Small villages began to be overrun with refugees, many who were barely alive. Gary and Fort Wayne were also attacked, further decreasing Indiana's already devastated population.

Philip Sharp's Escape
Like most Sundays while Congress was in session, politicians of all stripes were either at home or visiting friends locally on September 25, 1983. Such had been the case with Indiana's Philip Sharp, recently elected to the newly formed 2nd district. He had been elected to the former 10th district, but the 1980 census had changed that. A Democrat, he had survived the sea change that had propelled Ronald Reagan to office. The midterm elections of 1982, with the new districts, had assured him a job for at least the next two years. That is, until the missiles were launched toward the Washington, DC, area!

Sharp had been in Hagersdstown, Maryland, that evening, and had received a call from a panicked aid who lived near the capital. Moments later, the hotels lights had gone out and everyone had begun to scream and wail at the news that the missiles had been fired. He wasted no time. Grabbing his overnight bag, he headed to his personal vehicle. He said a quick prayer of thanks that it had not been deep in a parking garage. Not realizing the EMP had been what had knocked out the power, he was unaware of the advantage that his vintage 1968 Mustang carried. His family had kidded him when he had bought it, But its ignition had no electronics - just a straight switch. The eight track tape player, though, was hopeless. But it was not music he needed, but news. That, too, was not to be, for the radio's transistors had fused to the circuit board.

Within the hour, though, he had made his way to the Greenbrier Resort, hoping to find many of his colleagues there as had been set down in the emergency procedures manual. A handful of junior members of both houses had made it, as had the vice president and the leaders and whips of both parties. It looked like the facilities might last for several months with no problem. Vice president Bush and the other leadership had constant contact with President Reagan via a buried fiber optics network that had been impervious to the EMPs. Near the end of April, 1984, it had become obvious to most at Greenbrier and at the Mt. Weather bunker (where President Reagan and his top adviser James Baker were stationed) that the nation could not be run from underground hideouts. The government, it had been decided, would be moving to Australia! Sharp and some of the other younger congressman were aghast, and when offered a spot on the waiting plane, refused, choosing instead to make their way back to their home states.

The early years
After Doomsday, Sharp would play a major part in Indiana state politics. With the bombings of major cities and air bases in the center of the state, Indiana had become literally divided down the middle.

However, the first politician to shine was Mayor Sheila Klinker of Lafayette. She was able to keep the order by taking command of the city's National Guard units as the default commander in chief until the capital could be contacted. Emergency signals had been sent to nearby cities until the units from Richmond and the Fort Wayne area joined those of Lafayette. Officials of the Federal Communications Commission stationed in the city were able to find a sub-contractor to repair citizen band radios (the founder's of Wabash National Electronics having only just been licensed earlier in the year). By spring of 1984, in fact, Colonial Frank Marcus, of Fort Wayne, had taken command of the units throughout the northern parts of the state. Using the CB radios a communication network was in place by July.

That very month, the residents of Terre Haute, thought destroyed in a nuclear blast, made contact with Lafayette. The explosion that had been seen from afar had been at the Newport Chemical Depot, set afire by the thermal blast of a low yield nuclear detonation above a military base about ten miles north of Terre Haute. As Terre Haute was filling up with refugees from harder hit cities, volunteers had worked for weeks to contain the chemical fires. Roads out of town had been destroyed, but communications had finally been established. By October of 1984 communication had been restored in Crowns Point and in many rural villages that were hosting refugees from South Bend.

On May 9, 1985 representatives of every know surviving city and town, having talked previously via radio, had made their way to Lafayette where a modified Indiana state constitution was ratified and signed. The representatives, each having been elected by their respective cities, had also polled their constituency concerning a new governor (to be called President in the newly formed independent republic). Lafayette mayor Sheila Klinker had been the favorite of the majority due to her part in organizing the state's National Guard units. It was agreed that her time served so far would count towards her four year term and new elections were scheduled for 1988. During her time as president, the republic got off to a distinctly conservative direction with the Republican party being predominant in most state offices.

Philip Sharp's Return
The trip had not been easy, even though the US government had provided fuel efficient vehicles with large gasoline tanks and refurbished electronics. There was absolutely no guarantee that there would be any gasoline when and if the cars ran out of fuel. The maps had been marked as best as the vice president's staff could figure based on the flyovers that their small military helicopters had been able to determine. The eastern states were reachable, with luck, but the past the Mississippi was probably a pipe dream. Sharp was only two states away, less than five hundred miles to his home town. Driving nonstop, for almost twenty hours over back roads with abandoned cars every few miles, Sharp made it to Shelbyville, Indiana, which had become a regional capital. The local authorities, supported by local units of the Indiana's National Guard, apprehended him and held him for questioning. He gladly accepted their offer for shelter and a meal in a local jail.

Once he had established who he was, he began to inquire as to who was in charge. He had hoped that the capital, or at least some of the government there, had survived. But the news that the mayor of Lafayette had become the de facto leader surprised him. In the weeks following that, he began a tour of the surviving towns and villages of the state he had been sent to represent eight years previously. He had not "been home" for long since leaving over twenty years earlier to finish his schooling at Georgetown University and Oxford. He hoped, though, that he could put his doctoral work, and years of service in Washington, to work in what was now like one of the struggling nations of postwar Europe which he had visited in the seventies. As he saw the new republic taking shape, he was not satisfied with the direction into which the Klinker administration was leading it, so, in 1987 Sharp ran for the chance to be its second president. His tour of the republic paid off and he won the election. Klinker seemed to be relieved at the results.

Thanks SouthWriter, I don't mind you editing the page, feel free to whenever.--Sunkist- 02:29, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana's Plausibility (Or Lack Thereof)
What I can't get over is how this nation is still in the process of being graduated,while my Wabash Union was rejected on the spot. How is a nation pretty much controling the entire northern half of the state of Indiana more plausible than the centralized small cluster of counties I wrote? I found an impact-free zone in Indiana, and after I turn my back for short period it is made obsolete. It was the same formula I used for Vandalia, yet that nation suceceeded when Wabash failed.

Yankovic270 02:07, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Because it was written first, QSS and QAA. You are pissing a lot of people off, Yank, especially me after I rediscovered an old heckle you sent at me on the Provisional United States Talk Page and after you called me an asshole.

Also, you wrote Wabash just to make the Dixie Alliance larger, or more specifically the Virginian Republic. Also, this page is written by an Indianan Hoosier, not by a Manitoban Canook (neither are insults, btw), so by law of common nature he knows more on the area. Arstarpool 02:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * As much as I like watching two people on the internet be angry at each other for things that happened in the past...wait I don't like that. Seriously guys, keep this professional. Yank if you have actual plausibility issues with this article than point it out, don't complain about a failed article you made. Arstar, if you have an issue with Yank, rsolve it on each others' talk pages, don't drag it here. Mitro 02:23, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, this is kinda hurtful..--Sunkist- 02:28, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

If I said anything bad, I'm sorry, because I didn't try to upset you, I just went for Yank. I was just trying to defend your work but if I got you mad in the process I am sorry. Arstarpool 02:37, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I wrote Wabash, because I expected that Indiana would be the one quickly rejected, and I believed (and still believe) that no matte how devastated state is, there is always a community of two. I apologize for my rudeness earlier, it's just that it's around 9:30 at night and I'm kind of crabby.

Yankovic270 02:39, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I really don't care, once everybody says rude and nasty things before they think, they make it all better with a sorry note, I'm done with the argueing. I'm not going to allow Indiana become a puppet state of some other entity, with having Southern Indiana taken over by Kentucky I wasen't allowing that to happen to the rest of Indiana. (Please take no offense ZACK, love your work with Kentucky, I just want a independent Indiana.) Can we please return to making this nation become something more than a proposal?--Sunkist- 03:00, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words Sunkist. No offense taken at all. It was never my intention to swallow the state whole anyway. It would be implausible even if I wanted to! --GOPZACK 03:12, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I see, can't wait for Kentuckys election, I'm just dieing to see who wins.--Sunkist- 03:15, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

should be an interesting contest--Owen1983 13:39, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

You forgot that while the Virginian Republic has a decidedly more militaristic tone than the OTL US government, it is no longer a military dictatorship. They have had free elections, political parties have been re-established, and the Constitution (albeit a modified version) has been restored. Relations with Indiana would have improved after democracy was restored in Virginia.

Yankovic270 01:18, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yank, I like your works and all, but most people on this TL think differently about Virginia than you do. In your mind you used the military dictorship to "get through" the bad years and when things started going good you removed it. Well to everyone else, (I'm not saying my opinion here) some people think that it is a big empire that think its a militaristicly unstoppable and "American haters". Speaking of Yank, I was curious, why do they hate America so much? Arstar [talk] 01:29, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Changes
Alex, your highjacking of poor Sunkist's efforts are hardly helpful. He was doing well at implimenting changes I suggested, and now you have held him back from progressing to even a consolidated government in the course of 27 years. Why should central Indiana be any less able to survive as, say, Assiniobia (colder), or the Republic of Lincoln (smaller)? Sunkist had worked on setting up a communication system and assuring open roads with local members of the state guard. And you have convinced him that without your "serious changes" he will never see the article graduated.

I am sure he appreciates your help, but you have made his Indiana possibly the weakest nation-state yet. Hattiesburg and Natchez are stronger in some ways! I think you need to step back and look at what is there -- cities connected by roads on three sides of a bombed out center. Leaders that know each other and have contact with other American states that can help them grow. I have set back and watched this happen over the past week or so, and I thought I just had to say something since I had worked previously with him to bring this article up to par.

I don't have time, or the inclination really, to argue this. I just thought I'd let you know what I thought. No offense meant. I like what you've done with your own articles and like your new push for quality articles. I just think you are being a bit overbearing, that's all. Have a good day. SouthWriter 21:34, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Huh? South I only edited the history. Oh and I removed the bombed city thing because I was going to add something else in but I decided to call it a night (or morning). Don't worry, Indiana will not be weak; If Zack and Yank agree, I guess something could be worked so that it can join the Dixie Alliance soon, and I would have no problem with admitting another nation to the United Communities.

Sunkist still has full power over the article, If he wants the old version I can roll it back to its original form, but Mitro and others argued that it was not plausible in its original form.

EDIT: South, I am going to do what you did with Plymouth where you made your own version on your "Ideas" page and I'll just work on that, and if he wants I'll enact the changes to his article. Arstar [talk] 02:00, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

I've gone back with Arstarpool's changes, I've just keept the name. I would really like to get this rolling, anything I should take care of?---Sunkist- 20:18, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

...
Im sorry if I'm going to sound rude but what can possibly be done the third time this article has been revived that was different from the first and second? Arstar 01:55, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well, at the time it was denied I was gone for the time, and if you read over it, you can see it..shows when Superior meets the city states instead of a large Indiana..which was the big issue back then..then after hearing from the Superior Scouts, Indiana decided to form some type of nation, which could try and equal up to Superior or Kentucky.--Sunkist- 16:17, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

It shows no such thing, and contradicts canon as read in Superior, which is why it was made obsolete.

Lordganon 19:58, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

"In former Indiana, the expedition came across several nomadic clans that traveled over most of the Midwest, and were told that there were many such groups both South and West of their current location"

Theses 'groups' are the city states, and the clan gave very little detail over these 'such groups' and leaves room for Indiana's story. -Sunkist- 18:25, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

The "groups" they reference are other clans, Sun. Not city-states.

Lordganon 21:38, November 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * LG, give Sunkist a break! He quotes the articles ONLY sentence concerning other survivors and you have to insist on that passing statement being interpreted literally. Though QSS is to be taken seriously, such a passing statement can certainly be interpreted differently. The fact that one early writer did not foresee the possibility of survivors city-states in Indiana should not mean a Hoosier can't build something out of the ashes. The fact is, there would have been surviving cities, and they could have organized over the years. The "nomadic clans" of the Superior article need not have even KNOWN about the cities.SouthWriter 22:20, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing people REALLY REALLY don't want Indiana passed for some reason..but..I'm make sure it works.--Sunkist- 23:07, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing people REALLY REALLY don't want Indiana passed for some reason..but..I'm make sure it works.--Sunkist- 23:07, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sad I haven't seen this from the beginning, we have been so focused on the Superior History Page..that we missed a little bit more info on they're reports..please read Indiana 's main page..on its HISTORY after Doomsday. And that the fact that Wayne's Downtown area was destroyed by a low-yield nuke. I could of also had a large stockpile of VX if I wanted to.--Sunkist- 23:27, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure some one is going to bring up the issue of it being 'to big', which has been taken care of already, but oh well, and the fact the Superior argument is over with..I'm sure this time..it will be cannoned. Also, I'm working on the city-states to get in more depth of Indiana's history, --Sunkist- 00:16, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

My apologies south, it just doesn't seem to me like he gets any of this. That sentence seems pretty clear to me, mind.

Sun, you have not taken care of the size what-so-ever. These surviving city-states should remain as such, not like this. More articles like the "Wayne" one you just made, and one for each city-state, would be fine - as independents - but not like this. And I still cannot fathom why you think Fort Wayne would still be inhabited after a nuke destroyed half of it.

Lordganon 00:50, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure cities like Florence and cities in North Penn were nuked and were able to survive. If you read over the discussion you would see..YES WE HAVE. Why should they're remain as city-states..why can't they work together..why cant they function as one. Go read over the Indiana article, Fort Wayne is a very spread out city. the National Guards HQ is on the outskirts.-Sunkist- 01:00, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

My two cents: Actually no cities nuked in North Penn survived, Erie bit the bullet on the west side and the whole city was significantly destroyed. Reconstruction efforts are to begin in 2013. Florence wasn't nuked at all as earlier canon was discovered, revealing its full survival and I was able to keep it from being nuked at all.

To put it frankly the only city in the world to be repaired after any nuke after Doomsday is Panama City, which wasn't even directly hit and even then it had the support of all of South America in its rebuilding efforts. To be said honestly and rudely, why does this keep getting rejected if it was so plausible? And LG wasn't here the first time around.

Than what's the deal with the Congressman escaping the DC Metro Area in a 1967 Mustang (where'd you find that?) to get to the Greenbrier, only to reject protection and decide to go in a car back to Indiana? Arstar 01:19, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

South deserves credit, I see he's trying to keep an argument from erupting. So let's try to all cool down guys.

~Arstar

Well first, you rejected it..you alone..while I was gone and had no say. It you would also like to know, Fort Wayne was hit by a low-yield nuke..very small and with the help of the water might of kept it down, but also damaged the eco-system of the water. It also hints that it only hit the downtown area, and the fact the National Guard wasn't even at Fort Wayne, they were heading to Columbia City until returning back. When I'm talking about Fort Wayne, I mean the outskirts..not downtown or the urban area. But a lot of the population lives on the outer parts of the city and being able to survive. This was a very low power nuke. For some odd reason..it wasn't wasted on the near perfect Toledo..-

~Sun

Once again, calm down Sun.

You think, and have thought it repeatedly, that the matter of its size is solved, yet no one else does. You've been told this repeatedly, though have done little about it.

Sigh....

Lordganon 01:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Nobody said the size, the Indiana page says "there was a small air burst over Downtown" not "super micro blast".

Don't bring Toledo into this. Though it is effectively the largest city in Middle-North America, someone has to claim that title. Arstar 01:52, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Why do I need to calm down..I'm not the one having to sigh after almost ever comment. Also it says small, and I gave you small, the map is kinda small too so its not really accurate. Also the Toledo thing is a perfect thing..if went though canon SO easily..for some odd reason. And you can go look at a Fort Wayne its map, its very spread out. I also gave the city-states enough time to get this land.. 1983-2000 is when the basic counties around them were taken, and after 2001 they may begin to take county after country. I'm sure the California Republic is pretty big..what about..the Northwest Alliance..both pretty big nations. Why did they..simply 'work' they fact you just say "TOO BIG" is getting old and the fact I set of a confederacy at first and then progressed into a republic is something that could really happen. I was just hoping for some type of unified Indiana, and I'm getting stoned for it.--Sunkist- 02:03, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

See sun? That tone means you need to calm down. The sighing is because you don't get it.

Toledo isn't worth hitting, as has been discussed already elsewhere.

The California is not very big, and you just picked the Alliance out of a hat to spite me - there's nothing wrong with that size at all.

Tone back the size then sun. It's not too hard, at all.

>.>;

Lordganon 02:16, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I did..and you see you didn't like it..I might as well lead a strong questioning to WHY its so big..and that you should tone it down, its not hard at all, I've toned down Indiana tons of times and this is the reason its the size it is.--Sunkist- 02:21, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

The California Republic is very large, and has a nice beach front - fancy that.--Sunkist- 02:21, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

And also, why NOT to hit a large populated center..like they did with Louisville or Indianapolis,?--Sunkist- 02:23, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

You've taken out a couple counties from this overall - that's about it.

I am not going to debate the Alliance with you here, as you obviously only looked at the map.

The California Republic has no beachfront, besides a small area of the Sacramento river.

Louisville and Indianapolis have industry. Toledo really, doesn't not anymore.

Lordganon 02:33, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

While it may not have industry, it does have a large population. And if we want to go on about industry, why would Fort Wayne get hit?--Sunkist- 02:38, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sunkist, California is pretty small. Even then I've shrunk it numerous times. It controls the American River and has a Coast Guard station in the San Fransico Bay to make sure what few ships they have make it out to sea.

The NW Alliance is sparsely populated.

But now I've realized your just attacking our works to try to disarm us, Owen style.

Seriously dudes go pop some Valiums. And LG, try not to get heated up. [User:Arstarpool|Arstar]] 02:49, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Then you clearly don't understand 'dead space' like LG stated on Iowa. Indiana has small towns, its not all bunched up. Its fairly large for a fairly large state. I've srunk Indiana many times..still no place for an agreement, maybe if I got a larger map..and place that on there..it would look smaller..mhm. After the losing part of Superior article you attacked me over the size, which LG told wasen't the reason it was obsolet but the fact it was controdicting Superiors History. Well I'm going by Indiana's main Page. Its tells all about these areas surviving and nothing about Fort Wayne not being able to survive after a small low-yeild nuke attack. How can I chill when I'm being attack by two people at once..its not fair and I can answer all of them at once. You simply don't like me for personal reasons.--Sunkist- 02:59, November 22, 2010 (UTC)