Conclave of Kings (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

The Conclave of Kings of the Holy Roman Empire is perhaps the most important part of the Imperial government, responsible for electing the Emperor and admitting new states to the Empire. Every state has a representative.

Current Electors
These are the current electors at this time. The Bolded one is the state of the Emperor.
 * German States
 * Austria
 * Anhalt
 * Tyrolia
 * Saxony
 * Bavaria
 * Baden-Wurttemberg
 * Bohemia
 * Brandenburg
 * Burgundy
 * Calais
 * Pomerania
 * Saxony
 * Swixx Confederacy
 * Italian States
 * Milan
 * Savoy
 * Venice
 * Florence
 * Genoa
 * Greek States
 * Byzantium

Poland-Lithuanian Statehood (Opened by Austria)
This current issue is whether Poland and Lithuania should be allowed entry into the Empire. The Emperor suggests that if entry is permissible, the two regions be divided in needed to aid in governing.

Agree

 * Venice
 * Byzantium

Disagree

 * Brandenburg
 * Luxembourg
 * Bavaria
 * Milan

Discussion

 * Milan: Will this brings us problems with the Russians?
 * how would this effect our relations? I have been offered a most lucrative deal if Poland ever becomes an issue...
 * Too risky. Puts us on bad relations with the Russians, whose aid we will need in the future, and even worse with the Muslims, who will then use their war against Poland as the casus belli for attacking us. It also damages the relations of my nation(s) with the allies of my nation. I hereby give a negative vote on all accounts. ~ Wilhelm of Brandenburg, William of Aragon.
 * Think about it, the HRE nearly doubles in size and the way the Russians are treating AgentMars is appalling. They also say if Agent joins the HRE, they will annex all of Lithuania. That will shut them down for an eon with revolts and uprisings. The Muslims are out of most of their territory but the CALIPHATE is now operating in Lithuania. Not only that but Venetian spies have picked up info that the Russians are seriously considering a plan to ALLY WITH THE CALIPH and attack the HRE, they didn't hesitate to backstab Poland so think about your alliances carefully - who exactly does that trade deal REALLY benefit; you or Novgorod? Isn't it weakening the Imperial Trade Guild and the Venetian Trade League? We also weaken Russian Orthodox influence in Europe and allow the continuation of Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic healing to speed up with no Russian involvement. ~ Emperor Dimetri and Doge Pietro
 * Talking about AgentMars is meta gaming. Knowing that they will cooperate is metagaming. Poland was in their way of gaining a coast, and half of their trade depends on Brandenburg and the Hanseatic League. Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, regardless of which variation. ~ BrandenAgon
 * As appealing as it is to double the size of the HRE. Doing so would put us at the mercy of the Caliphate AND Russia. As it stands now, we can defeat the Caliphate if attacked, but if we push Russia away, who would be able to secure the region? We need the Russians. I do agree that we must be wary, but I feel we do need them ~King Andreas II the Merciful, Sovereign of all Bavarias.

Mongolian Statehood (Opened by Austria)
The Golden Khanate of the converted Mongols would prove to be an asset to represent Imperial interests in the Black Sea area, as well as supply our armed forces with excellent horses.

Agree

 * Austria
 * Tyrolia
 * Bavaria
 * Baden-Wurttemberg
 * Brandenburg
 * Luxembourg

War with Naples (Opened by Bavaria)
There is increasing fear that there will be a war between Naples and Venice, which ergo means, the rest of the HRE. Should we or should we not?

Favor

 * Brandenburg
 * Pomarania
 * Byzantium

Against

 * Milan
 * Genoa
 * Calais
 * Savoy
 * Bavaria- I have determined that the cost of war is too high and I do believe we have come to an agreement with Naples.

Neutral (For those interested in the developments, but don't wish to become heavily involved)

 * Florence
 * Austria
 * Tyrolia
 * Venice - We really do not wish to get involved. We are a nation of merchants and seafarers - not conquerors.

Discussion

 * Aragon's territorial claims are being endangered, and it seeks vengeance for the 50 year old secession. Brandenburg and Luxembourg obviously support it. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:39, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Baleares never belonged to Naples, a Mod just explained that to me. Quiari (talk) 00:25, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naples is a Milanese ally, and I hope Venice (plus Aragon) and Naples will solve their problems through negotiation.Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 21:03, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * I try see:


 * Hello, using a theme that is already open about me I would diplomatically solve the question of the Balkans. Venice is a great power (and also a major trading partner of Naples) and one of his vassals the Byzantine Empire has a great desire for expansion, your union with Epirus is a fact and there is no way to interfere there I do not wish to interfere, but otherwise Serbia can not belong to your sphere of influence, your vassal would be bigger than you. The Kingdom of Naples want expanding into this realm, without interfering with your policy to the south and east of the Balkans ... In this war that comes between HRE and the Caliphate, the best thing for you would be to expand the Byzantine Empire to the east and recover the territories of the Ottomans. Epirus I think it's yours, in the same way that Albania can be incorporated into your Empire I do not know whether or not easily, that's something we might see in the coming shifts. What do you say? Quiari ( talk ) 15:40, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to say anything. Just going to point out that Serbia doesn't have a coastline... (I assume he doesn't see Montenegro Quiari (talk) 00:25, October 9, 2012 (UTC)) You are free to try to take it but I fail to see how it will work. Scandinator ( talk ) 02:47, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Asti and Luxembourg are not electors (which means they are not members of the Conclave) and Aragon is not even part of the Empire. Besides that, we must convince Naples to find a pacific way out of the current sovereignty problem for the Bealeares Islands in which Naples has obviously no right of economy, culture nor history. The Venetian intention to make war with Naples is just another Imperialist attempt of the Venetians to expand their influence and have an Empire-inside-the-empire. -- Galaguerra1 (talk) 23:03, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Naples is not asking for the Baleares anymore, one mod explained to me that the territory was never mine. Sorry for that. Quiari (talk) 23:59, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * They seized the Despotate of Serbia, imprisoned Ektor's cousin and are crushing the Orthodox inhabitants under their heels. Byzantium wishes to protect their peoples and reunite the Southern Balkans. Scandinator (talk) 23:26, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * I went for Montenegro since I started the game ... When the Serbian player left, I started diplomacy there. Venice and the Byzantines in two or three turns annexed Epirus and Albania! Three turns! is this really that easy to do??? And now they come and say that Serbia-Montenegro are of them ... Quiari (talk) 23:59, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not only that, I have proof he is working with the Caliphate. See The High Imperial Court (Principia Moderni II Map Game) Scandinator (talk) 23:29, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Bitch, please... Quiari (talk) 23:59, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naples is guilty of crimes against Christendom. We MUST act.Andr3w777 (talk) 23:30, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * No crime as you can see... Quiari (talk) 23:59, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Pope supports a diplomatic way out of this conflict. We must find it, before feeding the imperialist ambitions of Venice. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:33, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is Bavaria supporting Venice? I think the Bavarians, as a diplomatic, peaceful and English and Milanese allied nation must support us. Also, according to Paragraph LXI of the Constitution war can only be declared with 2/3 of votes in the Conclave.


 * The total of electors is 18. The required majority is 12.
 * The Emperor has decided to remain neutral. We can't count neither the votes of Austria nor Tyrolia. That makes the de facto total of electors 16. Making the required majority ten or 11. I think ten is enough.
 * At the moment, there are nine votes. The required majority to declare war would be six. But, at the moment, you just have five votes in favor.
 * Bavaria sees that Naples was in talks with the Caliphate. In their favor I must say I don't know for sure their intent, but IF it IS hostile to the HRE, then I must support the war, otherwise, yes I agree with a diplomatic solution. Bavaria has always striven for a diplomatic means. Just look at our annexations every single one but one was a diplomatic take over.Andr3w777 (talk) 17:54, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * So far I do not know where you take it that I am hostile to the Holy Roman Empire. I've never planned anything against the HRE. I have never attacked a HRE member ... then you are accusing me of nothing, right? Quiari (talk) 18:50, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * NO - JUST BEING CAREFUL. JESUS CHRIST!! HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THAT!!!
 * The King of Naples has died, the King of Savoy, Pedro III is now King of Naples, (read my post) and now I request entry of Naples, the Holy Roman Empire. No more conflict in Serbia. My troops have come out of there and left the country to its fate ... what you say now? Quiari (talk) 19:09, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * I say withdraw fully from the east side of the Adriatic. Venice is not the Serene Duchy over the Adriatic for no reason... I am protecting Venetian and Byzantine interests in the area. You have plenty of room to expand uncontested to the south if you help us with the Caliphate. You can gain Tunisia and Algeria with Venetian help. Deal? That will give you a massive Empire in North Africa... an area I will not challenge you over. Scandinator (talk) 03:03, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, I understand your position and your intentions. I have no intention to challenge the supremacy of the eastern Mediterranean. I do not want to interfere with your interests, and I think it right to try to restore the Byzantine Empire and hopefully another player can come and take those reins. In the Black Sea you have your territory and I have no problems with you. At this time I have left Serbia: is what you have been claiming all along? I reject the Caliphate and want to join the Holy Roman Empire (still waiting to accept me ...) you propose that I withdraw from the Adriatic, but you have to understand that I've spent many turns here. I pledge before the HRE to protect the interests of Byzantium and the interests of the Empire. No territory of theirs is in danger. As proof of this, I have given Serbia. If you say you do not want those territories to Venice but to Byzantium then you should not see a problem. After the defeat of the Caliphate it would please me very much to see the distribution of North Africa. You offer me Tunisia, Libya or Algeria, but until we get to that, not only I will seek those territories. I'm proposing a status quo, you have your area of influence. You get the territories you wanted. I promise not to interfere in the eastern Mediterranean, or Black Sea, nor in the Byzantine Empire, or any other matter have those places (unless you specify more than one) and you then simply do the equivalent. I remain in the land where I am and I seek my own zones and enclaves, without harming you. No wars between our Christian nations, only prosperity. If necessary it can be pronounced HRE and the vote ended a dispute that may arise, always in search of peace, justice and balance of powers. Quiari (talk) 19:55, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Future War with Prussia (Opened by Brandenburg)
Prussia remains a threat to the interests of Brandenburg, and as long as it stands, the Germans are hindered. Brandenburg proposes a future war with Prussia in the case that it becomes a pressing threat.

For

 * Bavaria (with provisions)
 * Baden-Wurttemberg (with provisions)

Against

 * Venice (costly, too far and isn't Russia about to crush them?)
 * Byzantium

Decision
My provision that we attack ONLY if they become an increasing threat. I have heard of Russian plans to seize Prussia, Whether or not that is true, remains to be seen. We must play carefully in this matter, because the mods are threatening severe punishment on the HRE for continued conflicts. If possible, let us avoid war.Andr3w777 (talk) 22:51, October 8, 2012 (UTC)(Bavaria)

Russia is. No reason to hide it. Might like some support, too. But we are. No worries about further threats. The Royal Guns (talk) 19:29, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Change that, we already have. The Royal Guns (talk) 19:27, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Membership of Naples (Opened by Imperial Government)
Since this issue has gone on long enough, it should be answered. Should Naples be allowed to join the Empire?

Agree

 * Savoy
 * Milan
 * Genoa
 * Venice
 * Byzantium
 * Bavaria
 * Baden-Wurttemberg
 * Calais
 * Pessaro
 * Lorraine
 * Palatinate

Discussion
Since to let a state join the HRE is a decision of the Reichstag, all states may vote. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 21:44, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Membership of Aragon
Aragon asks to join the HRE since it is in union with Brandenburg, which is in the HRE.

Agree

 * Milan
 * Genoa
 * Tyrolia
 * Austria (Will Navarre join as well?)

Disagree

 * Calais
 * Pessaro
 * Byzantium

Abstain

 * Lorraine
 * Venice

Discussion

 * Milan: I see no reason to stop Aragon from joining the HRE - more lands and power to keep Europe and Christendom safe.\

Caliphate Invasion of Byzantium (opened by Bavaria)

 * The Caliphate has declared war on Byzantium, as Byzantium is a de facto member of the HRE I suggest we bring the full might of Europe down onto the Muslim Infidels.

Membership of Cyprus (Opened by Imperial Government)
As some of you probably know, Cyprus would like to join the Holy Roman Empire. It is a relic of the Crusades, with a Catholic government but an Orthodox people. Nevertheless, it has a prime position in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Agree

 * Austria
 * Tyrolia
 * Milan
 * Genoa
 * Brandenburg
 * Venice
 * Byzantium
 * Savoy
 * Naples

Succession to the Emperor (Opened by Brandenburg)
Emperor Frederick is on the verge of death. We need to name his successor so we don't fall into anarchy when he dies. UPDATE: Our great Emperor has died. Let us nominate whomever we see most fit to be our next illustrious Emperor.

Virtues
Frederick IV is the Electorate of Brandenburg. He has undertaken several projects to employ his people and has ensured that little to no people go hungry in his state. He has also funded three voyages to the mystical land of Antillia, which could possibly be a ripe land for our colonization. He has also eliminated the problems with Prussians and Luxembourgians. He has also brought us on to good terms with the Orthodox nations, so that they do not pose a threat to us. His wife is also the daughter of the deceased Emperor.

Vices
He is a northerner, and may be unable to relate well with the Italians, Greeks and Coptics. But his diplomatic skills are excellent, and he is on good terms with the neighboring countries, England, Scotland, and Norway.

Aye:
 * Brandenburg

Virtues
Frederick Constantine is heir to the thrones of Tyrolia and Austria when his father dies. He is a well educated individual who has taken many trips to Italy, Iberia, and the Papacy as well. He is a firm supporter of the war on the Caliphate, and is also married to Isabella of Castille.

Vices
He is an extreme Catholic, and views his father's efforts at reducing Catholic influence and size a problem. He does not have a high view of either his mother, an Orthodox Christian, or any of the non-Catholic states. He is also critical of Russia.

Aye:
 * Savoy
 * Naples

Virtues
Wilhelm Kribt is the heir to the thrones of the "Great Unifier" and held the nation together during his father's death during the plague. He is a loyal Catholic and was a great friend to the last Emperor. He was educated in Rome and London and is well educated, and is lauded as a man of diplomacy and peace, but is willing to fight to portect the Empire that he loves. He is Southern, meaning that he has good relations to the Italian States. And is directly allied to the Pope. And was also an aid in gaining the Russian Federation's support for the war.

Vices
He is sometimes seen as a Catholic Reformer and is sometimes accused of finding a peaceful solution too much. He is also somewhat frugal with funding.

Aye:
 * Bavaria
 * Milan
 * Genoa
 * Naples
 * Savoy

Amendment One
It is forbidden for states to leave the Holy Roman Empire for any reason, save that the central government is taking away the rights given to the people.

Justification
We cannot let our gains be defeated by some states acting selfishly. We all read the Constitution, and we all agreed. So therefore we are duty bound to defend each other.

Amendment Two
Declaration of the state religion of the individual states will be reduced down to the state level, so long as it is some recognized branch of Christianity.

Justification
We now have many states. Byzantium and Cyprus are both largely Orthodox, the Canary Islands are Orthodox, Alexandria is Coptic, and while the Golden Khanate is officially Catholic, it is highly suspected that they are in fact Nestorian. Therefore, our growing size needs to reflect the growing diversity of our nation, and so our law must adapt.

Amendment Three
The Constitution is the defining law of the country. The laws of government embodied in the document may not be changed, and this amendment must never be changed.

Justification
We know not what the future may bring. We need to make sure that unrest occurs after the current Emperor's death that the Empire fragments again.

Agreed To All

 * Austria
 * Tyrolia