Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't somebody updating that map above? RandomWriterGuy 06:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I tried to do it, but is impossible to add those letters.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stage 1

 * Russia main nation + Livonia, Lithuania, Armenia, Kazakhstan
 * Finland main nation
 * Estonia + Sweden - only on Scandinavian peninsula

Stage 2

 * None.

Stage 3

 * None.

Stage 4

 * None

Stability for non-player nations
Just to clarify: from this point on, the population and time ruled factors in the algorithm will be replaced with bonus points for player nations. For non-player nations, it will go as follows:

2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points

Any problems with this system?

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I tweaked it slightly just a second ago, and it is correct as above. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Stability for Player States
Okay, time for the new system. This should be a lot more simple and a lot fairer.

System on Stability
The new system will distinguish government stability score (GSS) from common stability score (CSS). The sum is overall stability score (OSS).

Government stability score is basically the stability curve. The formula is 10*d^1.25/1.2^d where d is the number of decades the government has been in power, rounded to the nearest year. It is rounded to the nearest 0.1.

Common stability score starts at zero, and measures the stability of the common people. This number starts at zero. Economic improvements, propaganda, and religious revivals are +0.5 per year. Expansion and war are -1 per year. Make the most out of your expansion, and choose wisely guys.

When OSS reaches 0, you get a mod rebellion, so you can always change governments before then to keep this from happening.

System on War Algorithms
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm. So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. But you still lose -1 CSS for each turn you take during the war. However, it should be noted that the person who chooses how long the war is going to last is the winner. The winner may not hold the war if their OSS goes to zero. A country fighting on multiple fronts will lose twice as many OSS each turn.

If your OSS reaches zero during a war, you will have a rebellion during the war but it will not affect your overall score.

System on Rebellions
For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Why this works:
 * The stability scores are much lower and much less variable.
 * It actually takes into account usage of resources.
 * It prevents people from accumulating huge stability scores and wielding them against blank player nations who only have the stability curve.
 * It discourages too many changes of government because countries are most vulnerable as soon as they change government.
 * Rebellions have a good chance but they won't necessarily take over the entire country or completely be annihilated.
 * It's possible to keep your stability score artificially just above zero, but if you get invaded, you're screwed.

Discussion
Please discuss here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:28, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

... after all my effort... ah well i understand. Especially since Hungary was going to get 114 points if I updated now Scandinator 06:22, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I like this system much better. The old one would have worked good in theory, but there were too many things which opinion could effect or were complicated. It would work well in a videogame or something though. LurkerLordB 21:59, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

My only question is how drastic does it have to be to be considered a change in government? LurkerLordB 22:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think mod rebellions should be like a civil war. CrimsonAssassin 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well, I can't think of a better way to give rebellions a chance without taking too much territory out of the nation. Got a better idea?

And a change in government would mean that the previous government wouldn't have wanted the change to happen. This is different from say, a new king that is much more well liked than his predecessor. Instead, the way you make your king more well-liked is with propaganda, which adds

One problem I am running into. Take the scenario: someone works on their economy one hundred years straight, and their stability is at 50 by the end of that period. Then, they go on a rampage, and because their stability is so high, they conquer about 20 countries with about 2 years each, and still have about 10 stability left, which makes it hard for them to be invaded. The only solution I can think of is another curve (yay). So when your Common Stability Score gets above 5 or below -5, additional quantities are square rooted. So instead of 8 stability points, it would be 5+√(3), and the person in the example would have 5+√(45) stability, which is about 11.7 instead of 50. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:12, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

If someone was working on their economy for a hundred years straight, they deserve a successful rampage if you ask me. CrimsonAssassin 02:30, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Crimson, both to make it fair to nations that works on their economy for a hundred years straight, and because I am tired of math. LurkerLordB 02:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Independence Movements
in response to some concerns, I'll address the issue of colonial independence here. I'm giving the honor of the first independent colony to Hungary, where possibly Öböl or Újfunlandi could be the first, or he can pass the honor to someone else. This should take place between 1750 and 1800. This will set off a series of rebellions. You are not forced to give up your colonies, but you can still control your independent nations. At that point, having a lasting cultural impact is more important than just having more territory. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:32, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to judge whether or not a colony is old enough to break away. One question: I assume this applies just to colonies, and not to other subjugated territories. LurkerLordB 02:53, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) It needs to be old enough to have a significant amount of people who were born in the colony and identify with it rather than the mother nation
 * 2) It needs to be big enough to pose a credible force capable of breaking away. A 10 px size colony is not going to be capable of breaking away by war, and at this time period, no peaceful break aways will work.

Anyone can have a subjugated territory declare independence at any time. I chose Hungary because they have a long colonial history and extensive settlement in Újfunlandi and Öböl. I am leaning towards Újfunlandi because it is literally the most largely settled colony in the game, but as you said, Lurker, there has to be a good reason for a break, so it is up to Collie. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "you can still control your independent nations."?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think what he means by that is the player has the option to control what their former colonies do even after they rebel. Question: if we made a colony out of a subjugated territory, (Aztecs, Incans, ect.) what would you say is a good time for them to rebel? CrimsonAssassin 12:34, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I say that for colonies to rebel, they ought to have been old enough for a whole generation to have lived and died in it. LurkerLordB 21:55, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'd say at least a century since the establishment of the colony. CrimsonAssassin 23:33, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Map Problems
Adal belongs to Ethiopia.Scandinator 09:32, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

No, he said on his post that he annexed 13,5% of Adal.not all of it. and Ethioipa led the war, not Sweden.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

And Vietnam has conquered Joseon's colonies in East Asia.

Yank 14:59, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, this was because i added on the original, and i started to edit on other file, and i thought that i'd added it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:46, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

And China puchased Tibet a while ago actually. CrimsonAssassin 16:53, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Another issue is that the new government in Itsaygahi has merged the vassals as autonomous provinces into Itsaygahi. Could this be shown on the map. Also, an autonomous province should exist for the Hurons which were a Itsaygahan protectorate under the Old Kingdom. Thanks. Mumby 14:18, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

How should a autonomous province be depicted?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:38, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Karafuto/Sakhalin
I want to know who founded the outpost on Karafuto, as I want to make a deal with them.

Yank 20:18, December 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Solution A: The island is divided similar to how it was divided between Russia and Japan in OTL. The other nation (presumably Hanthawaddy) gets the northern half, and Nippon gets the southern half.
 * Solution B: Hanthawaddy gets the current area around their enclave, and the Nipponese get the remaining 95%.

I'm fine just to take the two peninsulae on the east of the island. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:02, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

France

 * Location: 2
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France(L)/Burgundy(MV)/Algeria(MV)/Hungary (M):11
 * Expansion:-3
 * Military Expansion:6
 * Stability: 20.8^1.25/1.25^20.8*2.5*7=7
 * Motive: (Political) 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:8
 * Editcount: 417
 * 2*3*4*9=216
 * 417/216xpi =62.3830541
 * Total=42

Wolof

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Wolof(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 37.5^1.25/1.25^37.5*2.5*7=0.377095757=0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Total= 37

Result
French Victory, France can take (42/(42+37)*2)-1=6.32% of Wolof

Discussion
I classified the expansion into Arabia and Inca and Songhai as being expansion, because it was beyond the normal limits of colonial expansion. You would think that France would need to incorporate the Songhai territory into their own for a while first before any expansion, and that they would have trouble dividing their forces between the Arabian war and this one. I used the stability curve for Wolof, but I need someone else to make the French one (aka Detectivekenny) LurkerLordB 15:31, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Use the stability curve. The new stability will probably not be implemented until 1750 or later. And I will appreciate the war being written as Wolof War (YEAR), because it makes things a lot more convenient. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:30, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Glitch
After I did my edit, a glitch occured. How did that happened? RandomWriterGuy 06:59, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

This used to happen with Zagoria and Lx.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

What glitch? White screen glitch? If yes, I get it very often too.

Doctor261 (Talk to Doctor!) 09:53, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

No, there is a glitch where the guy edits the page, and the page turns into a mess of code, especially where the images are.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:26, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Taking WikiBreak
This year I am entering 9th Grade at an early college high school, and am taking college classes in addition to a full curriculum of AP High School classes. ince I have been having insane amounts of homework, I have simply not had the time to edit posts satisfactorily. I will attempt to come back during winter break and in the spring if I get more used to my college classes. Until then, the AGC is in a period of inactivity (and please don't invade my territory).Zagoria 01:05, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, College classes can be a pain. I know your pain. Good luck with them! CrimsonAssassin 01:01, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Hope you come back as soon as you are able! LurkerLordB 01:05, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Ethiopia

 * Close to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Ethiopia(L)/: 12
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 3
 * Stability: 7
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Editcount:144
 * Time:2*1*2*5=20
 * (144/20)*pi=22.6194671
 * Total= 43

Sennar

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Sennae(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 200^1.25/1.25^200*2.5*6=4
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:2
 * Total=35

Result
Ethiopian Victory. Ethiopia is entitled to (43/(43+35)*2)-1=10.26% of Sennar

Discussion
I changed the military expansion number to fit in with the turns I used, but I'm not sure where that factors inFlagmania 02:39, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Industrialization
Is Joseon under the "Beijing area" thing? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 02:39, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Detectivekenny ruled that the Beijing area thing was no good, but Korea wasn't part of it anyways. Korea will begin industrializaton at 1775. LurkerLordB 02:45, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

When was this decided? Besides, Russia gave China a steam engine years ago and nobody spoke up until now. CrimsonAssassin 02:49, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Read what DK posted on the last page when you did speak up:


 * The area around Beijing should be red due to a deal I had with Russia a few years back. CrimsonAssassin 13:42, November 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * That is true, it was for a "recolutionary piece of technology" to only be used in the capital, that tech is the steam engine, thus accelerating industrialization in Beijing.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:29, November 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * If everyone made a deal with Russia, then we'd all be industrialized by 1800. Sorry, but you just have to wait. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:55, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

He says you have to wait. LurkerLordB 03:09, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Two things: 1. The deal has been put in the game. Sorry, but it'd be stupid to go back ten or twenty years to when I made the deal. I can't wait if it already happened. 2. It's just Beijing being the city of tomorrow. (-unsigned)

I'm sorry, but if I let this one go then everyone will want to do the same. Maybe a deal was reached twenty years ago, but back then no one "knew" exactly what would come up. Beijing can still be a city of the future, but in other ways. As players of this game, we are biased in that we usually try to do what will create the best outcome based on what occurred in real life.

We explore alternate history with given assumptions about what would happen. Many timelines create a better outcome for a particular country by using OTL. For example, take a hypothetical alternate timeline (I'm cutting out a lot of historical precision) where the US never joined the Vietnam War and instead used the money to create digital technology, and by 1990 everyone had iPhones and iPads, and the US dominates technology instead of Japan. It seems like this was right to do, because the US did end up losing the Vietnam War, but hindsight is 20/20, and it's not like anyone could have foreseen the US losing (and disgracing itself to certain people) with 20/20 accuracy.

Almost everyone wants to become a liberal democratic, industrialized, technologically advanced, and developed nation. Face it.

Same situation here. Crimson, you and the rest of the community happen to know, assuming we have a decent knowledge of history, that the industrialized nations all had huge amounts of power (and still do). We all seem to know that's what's best. But if you are to journey into this timeline and ask your average mandarin what would be the best way to make China great, you might be surprised at what you hear. Very few Chinese without a Western education during this period wanted to industrialize. Industrialization, western ideas, etc. was either "useless" or "poisonous." Maybe they put more weight on moral achievements and it bit their back in the long run when the Europeans started dividing China into spheres of influence and China lost power.

So that's why I'm putting restrictions, because even in all plausibility, I can't have it so everyone takes the direct route to being a "liberal democratic, industrialized, technologically advanced, and developed nation," because not only would that be implausible, but we would be in science fiction realm by the time we get to present-day.

The rules are there for a reason.

No saying that Beijing cannot be the city of the future. Maybe there are a lot of progressive minded individuals in the city. But maybe their idea of "city of the future" is different. Maybe their idea is to look into navigational technology, city transportation, efficient city planning or government, or anything. If the purpose of this game is to be creative, I don't see how I am stifling creativity in any way. But industrializing just to get ahead in the game, and additionally bending the rules, is a no-no. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:31, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

The deal was a revolutionary piece of technology. China got the steam engine, but nothing else. I do see where you're coming from though. CrimsonAssassin 15:07, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Then let's say that Beijing found it useless until later. In Alternate History we sometimes neglect things that don't move the plot forward. By the way, I saw your nomination a little while ago, so thanks, I appreciate it. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:16, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, that seems fair. Oh and you certainly earned that nomination! Good luck. CrimsonAssassin 21:12, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Map Issues
Sweden's Arabian claim is not the agreed one. Sweden should get more of Saudi Arabia as shown in the map.

I assume that you are Scandinator.anyway, there are three maps proposed; this, one in which France gets OTL Qatar and the UAE area, and other one in your talk page (or it was Galaguerra's), and you and Galaguerra never agreed in which one to use, if i'm correct.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:32, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

I'm agree with this proposal, I will control the coast of the Persian Gulf anyway. --Galaguerra1 14:37, December 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * The image right there is the right one (it also has Jerusalem in the lighter color, which is good too. LurkerLordB 22:38, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

I will add it now that you agreed with one proposal.

Nippon has annexed the various island chains formerly owned by Japan, and has begun the process of absorbing Sakhalin/Karafuto.

Yank 15:29, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Division of Sweden
It is my (sad) understanding that Sweden is going to be divided between France and Russia. Ethiopia would like to prevent a possible war and act as a mediator. So we have a proposal

France Gets: Russia Gets: Hungary Gets:
 * The Netherlands (Part of Sweden)
 * Scotland
 * Western Denmark
 * A little bit of Norway
 * Thorland
 * Hodland
 * New Sweden
 * Arabian part of Swedish Afrika
 * Southern two thirds of Fjordland
 * Rest of Swedish Homeland
 * Estonia
 * Asgard
 * Swedish India
 * Northern Third of Fjordland
 * African part of Swedish Afrika

I gave Hungary that coast on Libya because I'd already given enough to both France and Russia, and thought another nation close by should get that. You can use my map as a basis for negotiations.Flagmania 23:17, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

I've started a local republican regime for the express purpose of allowing the leadership of Sweden to stay in Sweden's hands. Rest assured, I have no intention of making the Republicans a vassal or puppet of Vietnam, unlike every other nation interested in Swedish affairs. I just cannot sit back while France and Russia cut themselves enormous pieces of the Swedish pie.

Yank 01:34, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

I am going to say that this will most likely be a civil war...thats right a civil war, not somebody taking over another nation but one trying to get influence over its governement, and will most likely result in the war of Swedish Succession faught over on one side by russia and the other france... and one nation will gain religious(france=Catholic, Russia=Orthodox)/some other influence on the other nation. Not annexation, we(or at least Russia) wants to keep a sovreign(or in-confederation) Sweden!-Lx (leave me a message) 02:36, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

There would be a third faction, being the Republicans funded by the Vietnamese. I promise that, if the Republicans win I will not curtail Swedish independance at all. Regardless of what either Lx or say, the fact of the matter is that Swedish independance would be infringed apon as a puppet of either Russia or France.

Yank 03:12, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'm strognly desagree. Finland enter in a union with Russia already and the independence of it has not be infringed. As semi-democratic state, France will give even more freedom to the swedish than they already have. Anyway, is not my intetion go to war because of it, and I want you to not go to war neither. --Galaguerra1 05:13, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

No Sweden is NOT going to be split up. An there will be a War of the Swedish Succession, like the OTL Spainish one. I am still playing so the nation need not be carved up, Flagmania.Scandinator 05:48, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'm with Scandinator. The divison of Sweden is very unfair. RandomWriterGuy 05:56, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'm down with Scan. we shouldn't jump to conclusions.it's like trying to divide my nation when they got into a civil war.But, about the war; there will be only two factions?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:39, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

No. There will be three factions. The Pro-French Nobles, the Pro-Russian Clergy and the Nationalist Republicans I funded because Vietnam wants Sweden independant. I also agree that the division plan is unfair. It's not like what happened to the Ottoman Empire or Joseon, as Scandinator is still playing. I created the Nationalist Republicans to provide Scandinator with a "neither of the above" option.

Yank 06:45, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

If there will be a war, I'll obviously win. I have more allies and any of them will be benefited with a russian defeat. The swedish people will obviously support me. I'm a democratic state and historical ally of Sweden, I have even blood right to the swedish throne. Insted Russia is an autocratic empire under constant civil disarray and the traditional enemy of Sweden. And Vietnam, though is a powerful nation, is not so important in the swedish policy. The balance of power is on my side. Still, I must say it again... I want not to go to war But, if it's necessary, I'm gonna fight. --Galaguerra1 06:49, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

You know how you sound right now Gal? You sound like a hypocritical pompous thug who cares nothing about anyone else but yourself, and will not hesitate to step on everyone to get your way. Vietnam has not given support to the Republicans to gain control of Sweden. They gave support to help Scandinator fend off two greedy opportunists interested in taking the lion's share of Sweden for themselves. The Vietnamese are not interested in Sweden for the sake of territorial gain, but to help safeguard Sweden's sovreignty from foreign threats. Which is way more than what I can say for France or (to a slightly lesser extent) Russia.

Yank 21:10, December 9, 2011 (UTC) Does this mean it's loo late for me to ask for Sweden's Hawaii colony? CrimsonAssassin 21:14, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Mmmm...YES, I sound a little ( little ¬¬ ) bit hypocratical...Sorry. I was just saying that I have more in-game possibilities to win, or at least have the support of the swedish states. Anyway, you are not supporting officially the republicans, so I will not attack you (Vietnam is an ally of France, and is more suitable to me an allaince than a enmity). And I want not obtain territorial gains. It is anyway impossible, the war if for obtian the government of Sweden, not it's territory. I already have plans to give to Sweden a new independent monarch after the death of my current king (It is in the event of I win the war). --Galaguerra1 21:44, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Sweden's been very helpful to Ethiopia thus far, so Galag., Ethiopia's one nation that's going to fight with the Republican Swedes and Vietnam.Flagmania 22:15, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

If you check the history line, France has been the most feithful and helpful ally of Sweden in the last century. One of the kings of Sweden in fact was member of the House of Bertrand. So, the king of France is the legitime king of Sweden. Anyway, if you want to fight with the Republic, I'm no one to stop you. --

I support the French! they have the only legitimate claim to sweden. Kunarian 22:28, December 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actualy, Charles Peter Ulrich of Holstein-Gottorp(Peter III of Russia)'s Granduncle(Great Uncle) is the late charles XI, so he has legitimate claim to the throne.-Lx (leave me a message) 03:34, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

I say the vote thing should happen, but how? Each option gets a number, and we use a random number generator to see what the people choose? LurkerLordB 22:32, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

What if the Republicans re-establish an independant Republic of Scotland in exchange for renouncing their claim to the government of mainland Sweden?

Yank 00:16, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

I would accept that offer, but I seriously doubt that Venice be happy with it. --Galaguerra1 01:42, December 10, 2011 (UTC) As far as I'm concerned the only users who need to accept it are you and Scandinator. Kunarian needs to keep his nose out of other people's business. Besides I lost the ability to care what he thought when he decided genocide was a better way to get me to back down than actual diplomacy. He's on thin ice and he doesn't even know it. -- Yank 03:29, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Division of Madagascar
I just noticed that Naples already has a colony on Madagascar. Just to make a boundary, I thought Ethiopia and Naples should make a deal.

Option A: Naples gets just what it already has, Ethiopia gets the Rest of Madagascar

Or, more likely

Option B: We divide the island halfway.

Flagmania 22:08, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but King Carlo VII will make no treaty with the Ethiopians, and claims the island of Madagascar to be under his sole dominion. LurkerLordB 22:32, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

He will give the Ethiopians money for the colony however, equal to the amount it cost to found it. LurkerLordB 23:45, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hello May I join?
I would love to join this map game. If it's alright.

Yes you can join! I joined here recently-You just need to put your name next to one of the unclaimed nations, and create a page for your nation.Flagmania 02:55, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, Kurdistan. A surprising choice. You do know which nation on the map is Kurdistan? LurkerLordB 04:42, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Islamic World, north of Persia. Conwarlod96

French-Supporting Swedes

 * Location: 5
 * Purple Faction(L)//France(M)/Burgundy(MV)/Estonia(MV)/Arabia(MV)/Netherlands(MV)/Naples(M)/Papal States(MV)/Jerusalem(MV)/Vietnam(M)/Nippon(MV)/Venice(MW)/Fuzolia(MVW)/Milan(MVW)/Scotland/Ethiopia(M)/Nubia(MV):39
 * Life or death: 10
 * military dev: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Stability:((0.2^1.25) / (1.25^0.2)) * 2.5 * 9 = 2.87798158=3
 * Chance: 6
 * Total:60

Russia-Supporting Swedes

 * Location: 5
 * Green Faction(L)/Russia(M)/Lithuania(M)/Finland(M)/Kazakhstan(VM)/South Armenia(MV)/Iroquois confederation(MV)/China(M)/)/Venice(MW)/Fuzolia(MVW)/Milan(MVW)/Denmark(Charles Peter Ulrich)(M):32? I'm having adding problems
 * Life or death: 10
 * Military dev: 0
 * Expanion: 0
 * Stability:((0.2^1.25) / (1.25^0.2)) * 2.5 * 9 = 2.87798158=3
 * Chance: 7
 * Total:56

=== Republican Swedes ===
 * Location: 5
 * Republican Faction(L)/Vietnam(M)/Nippon(MS)Ethiopia(?)/Sennar(?)/Naples(M)/Papal States (MV)/Jerusalem(MV):12
 * Life or death: 10
 * Military dev: 0
 * Expasnion: 0
 * Stability:1.23734702=1
 * Chance: 7
 * Total:41

Result
Swedish Nobility Victory

Discussion
Okay, I have a few corrections to do with this algorithm. First of all, Venice has as vassals the Crusader States, Montferrat and...Siena? Anyway, there are three more countries on my side (two more, counting my vassals of Arabia and Algeria and Burgundy has sent military support). The name of my faction must be chaged to "Robert IV Bertrand" and a third republican faction must be added. May be the factions of Sweden (green, red and purple) should be added as vassals, and I thought the green faction was the pro-russian and the purple the pro-french. --Galaguerra1 05:34, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

The Venetian vassals ar Milan, Fuzolia, and the Crusader states (counted as one). You can edit the algorithm yourself you know. LurkerLordB 05:38, December 10, 2011 (UTC) How do we handle a three-way war? LurkerLordB 15:18, December 10, 2011 (UTC)'

Also, if Ethiopia joins (and currently we're probably going to join the Republican side, but we really just want a peaceful compromise) then our only Vassal, Nubia will join too.Flagmania 15:30, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

All of Venice and its vassals are joining in militaristically. 86.24.9.183 15:32, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

For Military development the leader should be counted. same with everything else. Kunarian 17:01, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, only problem is that the war is being fought through proxies (Vietnamese-controlled republican faction, French controlled monarchy faction, Russian controlled clergy faction) which makes it harder to determine who the leader is. LurkerLordB

We would use France for the french led faction as it is actually the french army and political leadership there leading the front and Russia for the russian led faction as for the same reasons however the Republicans would have no mil dev, expansion minuses and standard stability due to the fact that Vietnam hasn't actually sent troops or led the revolution politically, its the Republicans alone who rose up with Vietnamese supplies alone, they are doing the hard work alone unlike the other two factions. 86.24.9.183 20:13, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

no do it by the time the players who support it, theres too much room for manipulation of results. Plus the main armies of the factions should be the representatives as they are the ones fighting, the clergy and monarchy won't be on the frontline anytime soon. 86.24.9.183 22:38, December 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the factions that are fighting, even though they are puppets of other nations. They are NPC's, therefore they will do the NPC chance. LurkerLordB 22:42, December 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I don't trust the NPC chance you have done, if Ethiopia and Semnar join you and Vietnam win, it would seem that you have manipulated it to your own ends. First you deny the advantages Russia and France hold then you give the French the worst chance so the Russians beat them and give yourself the highest so that you can win by 1 if Ethiopia joins. 86.24.9.183 22:45, December 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, thinking about it, it should probably be the factions for all of them. LurkerLordB 21:54, December 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * For chance I'll just do a random number generator for all, as they have no players. LurkerLordB 22:20, December 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I redid chance as there were complints of bias.Scandinator
 * I am happy with the results. However if detective kenny feels that he should redo it in case of more accusations of bias, then I am fine with that. Kunarian 22:57, December 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I did no bias, if I did, I would have given Russia low enough to not win. But if you don't trust me, I guess you can. Technically, sinc eits a civil war Scandinator could decide the outcome however he wanted LurkerLordB 00:47, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still concerned how we will do the results. Unless something very strange happens, none of the sides will be able to get a majority of the points, which would make the result algorithm messed up. So how would the war result be decided (unless the three sides reach some sort of compromise)LurkerLordB 00:57, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have an idea. We divide the nation into three portions. The Repubicans get Scotland, the Russian Clergymen get Norway and Denmark, and the French get Sweden proper and Sweden's colonial empire.
 * Yank 01:07, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * the republicans get nothing. Its Frances and Russias decision on what happens. 86.24.9.183 01:19, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I was trying to start a civil discussion Mr. Doe. If you have nothing good to say you shouldn't say anything.Yank 01:26, December 11, 2011 (UTC) {C Exactly why would it be France and Russia only deciding? Because according to the new algorithm, Russia isn't winning either. I also didn't see where you were appointed in charge of this war, Kunarian. If anyone should decide, it should be Scandinator (as it is both his nation and he is a moderator) or a joint agreement by everyone involved, not just a normal user deciding what will occur in another nation just because he pleases. LurkerLordB 01:29, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

The Republicans have made a deal with the French. They will back them in the War of Swedish Sucession in exchange for an independant Republic of Scotland. I think the addition of Republican forces and their allies is more than enough to sway the scales in favor of the Pro-French faction.Yank 02:51, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Huzzah, Nobility Victory comes! Scotland is now an independent NPC. LurkerLordB 03:28, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

OMG the french might just win a war! its the appocalypse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1(this is a joke....interpret it as such!)-Lx (leave me a message) 03:36, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I won a war AGAINST RUSSIA!!!! I'm more than glad. I hope you will not attack me in revange D_D. Well, If you won't, you can consider the "northern wars fever" of the last century ended (by now). Anyway, when will I crush m weak and pathetic enemies? (It's a joke, please don't take it as vanity) When will the war end?--Galaguerra1 04:07, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps next year (1746)? Make it a three year war? That or the next year ('47). LurkerLordB 04:30, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'll audit the algorithm once finals end (on Wednesday, time permitting), because it appears we have this issue under control. Unfortunately I will be on vacation starting next weekend and for two weeks, so during that time I will have Collie in my position, and he will have final say. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:02, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

The war ins't over til the turn is over, so if russia accepts Venetian assistance, he can win. 86.24.9.183 13:36, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

You're telling me that Venice has withdrawn it's support of the French and their Swede allies just because I joined the bandwagon? Has anyone told you that you are disgustingly fickle? Yank 14:18, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Add China to Russia's side. CrimsonAssassin 14:19, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

good one yank, your response would be one reason why Venice does not wish to be on your side. Besides Venices greatest ally was Sweden, France was simply an ally and by betraying Venetian interests without adressing the Venetians themselves they lost an ally in exchange for an oppurtunist. Kunarian 14:24, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to say this one last time, Kun: lose the attitude. Lordganon 14:32, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a moment, he calls me distgustingly fickle, a clear insult and then my response is simply to explain why i did so and simply call him an oppurtunist which isn't even an insult but a character trait and you are telling me to lose the attitude? tell me what I need to stop please and I will. Kunarian 14:38, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I was going to apologize to you Kunarian, but I realized that I shouldn't. You are the very definition of "fickle"! You were one of the people who said "France is the only legit one!", and when I decided that I agreed with you you immediately changed your tune to "France sucks!". I would have thought you would have wanted to see France win at all costs.

Yank 14:43, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find that what I wrote was that it is Russia and Frances situation to sort out. You sided with France to grab an ally in europe in the form of a Republican Scotland. After the re opening of Vietnamese aggression towards Venice, we don't want you to have an ally in europe or to interfer in affairs that would not be yours (seeming as the two sides to begin with were actually russian and french and because of how much you complained when I got involved in anything that was mildly outside of europe or my territories). My attitude is not France sucks but one of "France made a poor decision" they would have most likely won without Republican assistance and if Venice did not make it clear enough that it was opposed to the Vietnamese funded republicans then I geuss that it could be my fault too. We aren't suddenly going to start jumping into wars on the side of Russia and we aren't going to suddenly start being aggressive towards France, we simply feel that it would be better if Russia won this one, at least then Venices interests are protected and if Russia were to also make a treat with the Republicans then Venice would sit this one out and eat cake. Its all a matter of situational politics, no matter how fickle Venice seems. Kunarian 14:55, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yank hit it on the head with the "fickle" comment. Nor was that offensive.

You and Lx had a discussion. You were the one that made that ugly, too.

Past that, you have consistently been offensive, and just mean in general, to the players of this game, especially to Yank, for no reason.

If you can't see where/how, at this point that is on you.

So, I repeat myself. Cut it out.

Lordganon 15:08, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

OK, this is official: you, Kunarian, have a vendetta against Yankovic. There is no way you are just roleplaying your nation correctly, you have a vendetta against him. I don't know why, but you have developed an irrational hatred against your fellow user, and this needs to end now. LurkerLordB 15:18, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Also, nice try, but your help is still counted, just a point taken away from each thing, if you withdraw. LurkerLordB 15:20, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Untill he officialy sends troops or ships its not military aid is it? and one more thing, Lets keep the kunarian discussions out of the war duscussions! its starting to irritate me, please have those non-war related dscussions outside of the war discussion section. is that OK with everybody?-Lx (leave me a message) 15:49, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Frankly Lordganon you have not stated what part of my attitude is a real problem so seeming as my last post seems to not have set upon anything then I assume it has solved something. By the way I hardly have a vendetta against him, I tried to re-intiate relations however he cut this off, if anyone has the vendetta it would seem to be he. Anyway, yes Lx is right we need to get back to the war not why me and yank find ourselves on opposite sides of a trench again. Kunarian 16:00, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Also, good try Kunarian, but the Republican faction still exists as Scotland, so you can't remove that either. LurkerLordB 16:04, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

good one. Kunarian 16:11, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

No, Kun, it has not.

I and others have told you repeatedly that you need to quit treating others as you are. You have failed to do so, despite having been told what the problem is, and it being obvious.

You do it one more time, and you will have a block. There is absolutely no reason at all for it, and it needs to stop.

Lordganon 16:18, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Can you give me a detailed explanation or just outline the problems with my attitude that you find on my talk page so that we can do principia moderni here not moderating. Its a reasonable request and should end the arguing here. Kunarian 16:23, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

I see absolutely no point at all in that. Everyone else can see it here, each and every time you have done it, and that's more than good enough. Lordganon 16:29, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that its not good enough. If you want me to stop something I am finding hard to see then you need to tell me what I am doing wrong. Its kinda like seeing someone throw a javelin wrong then just pointing at them and going "look at what they are doing wrong and if they do it wrong again, no more javelin throwing." If you truely want something to stop something then you tell someone what they are doing wrong. Kunarian 16:37, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

With the recent deal, Ethiopia and its vassal Nubia will give support to the French side.Flagmania 16:53, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

That settles it. Even with China (whose involvement makes no sense) and Venice involved the French still win. Next turn the war should be over and done with.

Yank 19:26, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, China is with Russia for several reasons. The first reason is that they have an alliance with Russia. The second reason is that they are getting steel and textile mills out of this deal. CrimsonAssassin 20:23, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yank, signing posts like that is screwing up pages.

Kun, the simple fact is that it is. If you fail to get it by now, that's on you. It's been pointed out to you more than enough, now.

Lordganon 23:58, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Joining as Japan?
Hey I want to join this game, and Japan seems to be free for me to take over. That o.k with the rest of you? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:57, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome, But well, Japan (or what is left of it) is a vassal of Vietnam right now.If you still want to play as Japan, you may have to ask to Yank (he controls Vietnam)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:55, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'm planning on having the Nipponese declare independance in a few years, so you can have it then.

Yank 13:56, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome. Please make yourself familiar with the rules. Other than that, have a great map game! CrimsonAssassin 21:55, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I'll just take it once Vietnam gives Japan independence, I can wait :) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:46, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

The only problem is that Japan was renamed Nippon by the Vietnamese (which is actually much closer to the name for Japan in Japanese) so maybe you should keep Nippon to reflect the long period of Vietnamese rule and to make it more accurate. LurkerLordB 00:07, December 13, 2011 (UTC)