Talk:1983: Doomsday/Politics 1

French settlements in Louisiana
OK, this is a fairly wild idea, and I'm really just wondering what the opinion is for its plasibility. We've been talking lately about Caribbean/Latin American influences on the southern coasts of the USA. We've also been talking about the situation in Central America, and ethnic enclaves in the USA, and it's all led to this. I've been looking around on some of the linguistic maps on Muturzikin. Now, that site definitely has a bias in favor of minorities, which means that small minority lannguages will appear on its maps as if they were spoken by larger numbers than they really are. But there is still a substantial Francophone presence on the southern coast of Louisiana. I'm imagining a situation where the French rump government in Martinique/Guadeloupe explores the area and forms ties to survivors there. Maybe, recently, even a "colony" - a settlement or two that receive aid and are made dependent on Martinique/Guadeloupe, and ultimately are considered French territory. It would sort of be a parallel to the East Caribbean Federation forming ties with English creole speakers on the Caribbean cost of Central America, an idea I proposed at Talk:East Caribbean Federation (1983: Doomsday). Benkarnell 17:12, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds like an interesting idea. I have no objections. --DarthEinstein 17:17, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about the Cajuns who live in southern Louisania. I actuly have a friend who is Cajun, so I know a little bit about the region. Language wise I cant see French making that much of a comeback. The number of speakers is to small and most are of the elderly generation. It might make somewhat of a comeback, but not enough to truly become a French speaking region again.

Hovever I could see the region falling under some kind of French influence, as the Cajuns still do identify themsleves as being part French. The Cajuns have a strange (but cool) blend of French and Southern American culture and are quite proud of it. I’m sure that they would welcome any real French with open arms. While I cant see any sort of neo-colonization I could see them helping the Cajuns to form their own survivor state (called Acadiana perhaps?).--ShutUpNavi 19:07, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Before we go any further with this what targets were there in Louisiana? New Orleans seems obvious, but are there any other targets that we know are nuked? --DarthEinstein 20:02, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Shreveport (Barksdale AFB and SAC base), England AFB in Alexandria, Fort Polk in Leesville, probably Baton Rouge (since it's the state capital). The FEMA map lists other targets, but it's possible those weren't attacked.--BrianD 20:15, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * You know what, this won't work at all. Caribbean France is/was too fractured to go exploring, there aren't enough French in the area, and it's very likely the communities that were there are gone now.  Benkarnell 04:41, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

British-Azanian Codominion over KwaXhosa
Surely this only makes sense. After a disastrous war like the Xhosans had and the amount of violent pressure groups, surely the LoN would intervene to stop chaos from ruling. It only makes sense for two local powers to take control. Also what precisely is so strange about New Britain annexing small areas in its vicinity- just as the SAC and CANZ do? Bob 17:09, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * Tricky. To be fair, I don't think either superpower has actually annexed anything other than uninhabited isalnds.  And superpowers usually get to behave differently from other countries, anyway.  It's not fair, but it's true.  And NB was in fact the aggressor in the KX situation, which might make others feel less sympathetic.  But then again... it _is_ a stable power in a region with few.  It may be able to present a case that co-dominion is the best way to go.  Now the Azanian League, AIUI, isn't really a country at all; it's an organization of mostly Black states in the former Transvaal region.   But maybe, the Azanian League and NB can be authorized to supervise elections and help with a provisional gobvernment in KX.  Like a condominum, but with the intent to leave soon... a lot like the RZA.  Benkarnell 23:11, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

Pitcairn Island
Hello. I'm about to upload a new-new version of the ANZC map (all 1001 versions so far have inexplicably omitted Alaska). I want to include one minor tweak to QSS before I upload. I would imagine that Pitcairn island, isolated and almost uninhabited, would be under French-Tahitian protection for a number of years after losing contact with the UK. But once the situation in the Pacific was stabilized with the formation of the ANZC, I would think the people of Pitcairn would prefer to be connected with this new English power, rather than the French. The easist way to do that, I think, would be to make Pitcairn a dependency of the Cook Islands, the nearest ANZC satellite state. Does this sound OK? Benkarnell 17:42, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hearing nothing, I'm going to upload it anyway :-P. Srsly, the volume of new material is making it hard to follow the discussions & proposals.  Benkarnell 13:05, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

And when you combine their flags, I think it's actually an improvement! (For a while now, I thought the Cook Islanders needed to put something in the middle of that circle.) "Frankenflags" are not always terribly realistic, but in this case I think it makes sense: by incorporating the two principal charges of Pitcairn's arms, the Cooks symbolize their union. And the charges themselves - an anchor for seafaring, a Bible for faith - could just as well be applied to the Cook Islanders, by all reports a very religious society. Benkarnell 23:39, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, give it to the ANZC... sounds most reasonable as the decisions whom is allowed to visit Pitcairn is still being made OTL in New Zealand...Just keep in mind the inaccessibility of the island making supplies a bit difficult, even though te Pitcairnians proved to be tough...Also the dark chapter of the abuse process against the mayor might be sth. to write about here. Adamstown needs to survive!!! The flag is also very suiting!

Hey Ben :-) personal Questions: You seem to be an island fan, at least in the Pacific right?? As I Am one myself the International Small Islands Studies Association might be sth. for you :) Discovered it during my thesis wor abotu the South Pacific and the Transportation... those guys have nice topics of studies :) just have a look.

Cooks Islands: I met a few from them in New Zealand... curious, a bi strange, but apparantly nice people :)--Xi&#39;Reney 23:31, November 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Yes, I really enjoy islands, for some reason.  Maybe it's growing up in the Midwest, everything big and flat and open, I like the idea of a small, self-contained society, I don't know.  And while I do enjoy learning about the Pacific, all islands interest me, no matter where they are.  But I can't believe they have a whole society devoted to them!  As soon as I find 20 extra dollars, I'm definitely joining.


 * I'm afraid, though, that I'm not terribly well versed in Pitkern history. What happened to the mayor?  Benkarnell 15:44, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Criminals taking over?
There is potential for small nations lead by former criminals. There are bound to be maximum-security prisons that survive DD. If any of the "supermax" prisons existed at the time, then there is massive potential there. Most of those facilities were fr away from large population centers, for obvious reasons. I could see one of these inmates declaring himself warlord over even a small city-state in the midwest. --Yankovic270 18:14, November 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yank, you don't get nations from those, you get thugs. Even if they formed a government, I couldn't imagine one more unstable. Lahbas 19:12, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

True, but for all the thugs there are in the prsions there are white collar criminals. The schemers. The men or women who can get the thugs to work for them. Why do you think organized crime is still arround? Because there are men or women (but usually men) who can give orders. --Yankovic270 21:50, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

i agree with Yankovic270. theres a hierachy in everything, even in prisons. --HAD 09:48, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

I have read (in a fictionalized account of a post-apocalyptic world) about these, for lack of a better term, fiefdoms run by former criminals who had naturally escaped from prison when they were abandoned. I could see Crime lords seizing control of territory in the midwest. It would be like an American, and less refined, version of Sicily. And what role is the Yakuza playing in post-DD Japan? For those who are not familiar with the terminology, the Yakuza is the Japanese Mafia. --Yankovic270 04:10, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I think the kind of order that would be imposed by criminals taking power in areas would actually be more common than just in prison areas. Basically you would end up with a new kind of feudalism, and criminals wouldn't be the only ones doing this. All over America and Europe there would be small groups led by an ambitious or talented leader. Sometimes encountering someone more ambitious or talented, and certainly some more powerful, and eventually some areas would have sort of feudal kingdoms, with groups led by one leader swearing fealty or some such thing to a stronger leader, eventually this system of control encompassing an area large enough to be called a country. Likely there would be several rival lords fighting for control etc. I think this would be just as commonplace as small municipal republics.--Oerwinde 07:31, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree here. We've focused so far mostly on the larger and more stable communities.  But for each of them there are probably several polities held together by strongmen.  And I like the idea of prisons as nucleii for a few of them, because it does make some sense.  In a post-apocalyptic world, the alpha dog of a cell block has a lot of what it takes to rise to the top.  Benkarnell 18:00, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I could see the Rat Pack regaining control of Las Vegas, because in my mind there is no logical reason thet Sin City would be nuked. There may be targets in Nevada, but I don't think Vegas should be one of them. If it is possible, what if it is a nation with Gambling being a major source of income? That would be veeerrry interesting. --Yankovic270 17:34, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Las Vegas is certainly not attacked, but everyone in it is dead meat anyway. Las Vegas is a bizarre service-economy anomaly.  It only exists because of tourism and entertainment: all foot, water, and supplies need to be shipped - and with DD, the people lose not only their only means of paying for all that (tourism), but also the infrastructure they need to get it all.
 * Imagine several thousand planeloads of people crash-landing in a random spot in the Nevada desert. That's basically the situation the Las Vegasians would have found themselves in after DD.  Benkarnell 18:00, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

And also due to the ruthlessness of these hardened criminal masterminds, I seriously doubt there is going to be competition for long. One of the warlords is going to kill the others. By the way, I need a suitable criminal mastermind to lead this "nation". The four questions I need answered before I can start on the article are:

1.Who is the leader?

2.What is a suitable name for the "nation"

3. Where is the nation?

4. How much territory should it control?

--Yankovic270 17:50, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * It depends on the criminal mastermind's political skills. You have to keep your lieutenants in check in order to stay in power long term.  Most of these criminal-warlords probably meet an untimely end at some point; seeing one last more than a few years would be a rarity.  But probably it would happen in a few places.  Benkarnell 18:00, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * You know what, I'm rethinking what I just said. The USA is severely depopulated.  If you're a hardened criminal mastermind, and you don't like the way your boss (a stronger hardened criminal mastermind) is running things, you have more than ample opportunity to pack up and leave.  So in a way, the prison folk are probably already accounted for: they are in the many "roving gangs" and "nomadic clans" that are mentioned so very frequently.  (And whether you call a particular group a roving gang or a nomadic clan probably depends largely on whether they're on your side or not.)  But I'll grant that there may be some criminal-ruled communities that stay in one place.  Benkarnell 18:11, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please answer the questions I asked? And I would want the "nation" to be in Las Vegas, because other than New York or Chicago it was the only city in the United States with a criminal underground strong enough to actually be in control of the city. --Yankovic270 18:13, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Nellis AFB is near Las Vegas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellis_Air_Force_Base --BrianD 20:12, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to think through the whole idea. The Las Vegas criminals probably died of dehydration along with everyone else.  As for other locations - how about somewhere along the US border?  Drug smuggling and all that.  Again though, that's mostly a lot of desert.  Benkarnell 18:30, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't there be even a "skeleton crew" managing the water supply? All you need is a small group of people to maintain and teach other people how to maintain it. --Yankovic270 18:37, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

I need at least a community or district where a supermax prison that was functioning at the time of Doomsday is. I at first thought that the supermax at Florence, Colorado was perfect, but it only opened in 1994. So that was immediately nixed. I want a place near a supermax prison, but of couse not near any impacts. --Yankovic270 13:43, November 8, 2009 (UTC)