Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flip back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

You expanded Baie d'Eric and Neu Berlin wrong. BdE is expanding north, not inland. And Neu Berlin is expand along it's side. You haven't even expanded either for this map. Aquitane and Angouleme are German, Chimu and Neu Mecklenburg are client states, I control all of Lanka, and you keep removing Von's mod events.

21:27, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I expanded both, but i don't remember France specifying expansion directions.and i don't think that you giving independence to your colonies like that would be allowed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:48, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

I thought we'd reached an understanding that you won't undo my changes again. Can I just do the map for 1760? That way I know it's going to be right. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:38, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tell me what i "removed" this time.I tried to correct what was apparently wrong last map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:48, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'm playing Prussia... so... a minor thing, can I be coloured in all nice and yellow. Preferably this yellow (hex : #FADA5E or RGB : 250, 218, 94) if you can. Thank you! :D Kunarian TALK 00:43, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * You need to keep playing fro more 5 turns at least to get a color.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:48, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Labelled Map






























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<p style="font-size:13px;">New labelled maps :P Scandinator (talk) 16:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map


<p style="font-size:13px;"> Colors:

<p style="font-size:13px;">Catholic - Light Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Reformed Churches - Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Kappelists - Dark Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Eastern Orthodox - Mustard

<p style="font-size:13px;">Islam - Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Nestorianism - Light Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Hinduism - Teal

<p style="font-size:13px;">Buddhism - Pale Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Animism/Indigenous - Yellow <p style="font-size:13px;">I made this map, using the latest 1730 map, and the old Religion Map as a guide. I do not claim this to be official, but please add/edit/update it as you feel needed to do so. If the mods don't like this, please take it down, but I only want to help. Reximus55 (talk) 10:35, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Update time? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:38, March 24, 2013 (UTC) </li>

Industrial Algorithm Modifiers and Industrial Era areas and rates.
I have a proposal to modify the algorithm to put into perspective the colonial wars of the 18th-20th century. An algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. Nations with two stages use the higher when defending and the lower when attacking. Scandinator (talk) 04:59, April 28, 2013 (UTC)



Stage 1

 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Stage 2​

 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Stage 3

 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Railways appear
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Stage 4​

 * Civilian railways appear allowing easier access
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Stage 5

 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Stage 6​

 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Stage 7

 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
I'm extremely confused. Also, I think the industrialization chart should be corrected, as Scandinavia has been vanquished.

16:08, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see no need to remove them, as they have already been removed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I like this one better than it's predecessor, mainly beccause there are more divisions here, allowing for a more accurate representation of the country's standing. Albeit, there are a few things that could be amended. CourageousLife (talk) 16:22, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Much better. And what is confusing Scraw? It is pretty simple to understand once the map is up showing industrialisation levels. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:27, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's for the map.


 * 17:16, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

It needs some corrections, as some characteristics are too late or too early for their times.Such as: We should move the appearing of railways to stage 4, and their spread to 5, to start with, After all, when we talk about railways, this implies steam locomotives, necessarily.And, steam locomotives in 1770?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't too far-fetched. A viable steam engine existed in 1782, it just took a while(about 20 years) before people to realise it could be used for rail transport. A two-cylinder steam engine was invented by a Russian in 1766...it had great potential, and could have perhaps accelerated the development of the steam locomotive by a phew decades(maybe only 10 years to say: put it on a fracking train) but The Empress ditched the designs in favor of a more "Brittish" system(i.e. hydraulicaly cooled that required close water supply...this lagged locomotive construction). So...RUssians could have built locomotives in the 1770s...but the empress wanted to stay close to brittain, and brittish-style tech, so that slowed many things...and because of that, the twocylinder stam engine was scrapped.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unlike the last game, the East is on better footing with the West, and thus will breed even more competition. I think this is completely fine if you ask me. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I've done the research in the industrial era. For whomever industrializes first, these technologies do not suddenly appear. It is gradual in within each stage. Scandinator (talk) 11:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would think that, like in PMII, crimson would be a fraction of the main natino around the nation's "heartland/capital" area, and the rest of the nation would get industry red. And colonies would industry get a colour under their founding nations, etc... However, I am worried about the ammount of colours...in any case, I do believe that orange and yellow(or at the least orange) should get planes at the same time as red and crimson...technology and trade would change to the point that...well...those nations could do thema t the same time...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel like one of these (red, yellow, orange) should be removed. Also, shouldn't Europe (closer to Italy) be receiving industrialization faster than the Middle East?

21:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not that the map is bad, but I would say that the coast and Dehli should be joined up as they are prime industrial locations. Doesn't really change anything, but it looks nicer, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian Federation should really industrialize earlier than its vassal of Baghdad I think. Albeit just industrializing along the coastal regions like Oman and Qatar where the majority of my urban population lives. The Nejd won't see industrialization for many years later. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

China would industrialize quicker than the yellow rate due to their extensive trading, especially with Orissa and Italia. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I too feel that China should be in orange.

I also find it strange that both Georgia and Austria are in orange while Germany itself is in yellow. Not to mention that Germany was higher than Russia on the chart and closer to Italy than Russia.

21:25, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Aren't any of these going to be addressed?

17:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd so something about it since I'm a mod, but I'm not sure if I have clearance for this map. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 18:20, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll edit it since, not only does it seem like the plausible thing to do, but worst-case scenario, they'll revert it and yell at me a little. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 16:53, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be less of orange China, as lots of those areas would be presently unsuitable for industrialization.

22:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a buffer between red and yellow.

CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 05:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I like how Germany is on the same level with the Dimurat and Siberia.

23:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Nation pages & PM2 awards?
Hey I was cleaning up the PM2 category just now and noticed a lot of the pages (especially for nations) are lacking content. Some pages have lots of content and are fantastic. I'd like to see all of the pages to the same standard and hence I'm thinking we do a PM2 awards to motive people into doing it.

'''Regardless of these awards, all players should update their nation pages so that nation history is easier for other people to learn about. It also helps in building the PM2 world too.'''

But these PM2 awards are just a for fun idea I had, we think up some categories for the awards (e.g. best nation page, greatest war, funniest post, largest nation, etc.) and then we all vote for which player, nation, etc. deserves the award. This game does have many months of content and I think we should highlight this more, and give credit where credit is due.

I was thinking maybe double colonial expansion rates for a year or a small algorithm bonus could be the prizes, which would be given out via mod event once the awards are given out.

What'd you guys think to the awards? Also please do update your nation pages!

--<font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:07, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'll be doing a full re-write and re-structure of the Venice page in my holidays. I think the algorithm bonus would be good. Maybe out of 5 for a nation's organization, with NPCs assigned the first decimal digit of the chance score divided by 2 as theirs. Scandinator (talk) 12:28, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking just like +3 economic development or something like that, nothing major. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:12, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I've fully updated my page and have been fairly detailed.Andr3w777 (talk) 02:43, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

I support double colonial expansion.

03:12, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

If we do double colonial expansion it will only be for a short while. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:09, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Alleged PMII ASB - ness
i have seen for a few times already Collie's post about Daxus labelling PMII as asb, taking this idea, what do you find ASB In the game, or that you find odd, that you think would never in any way have happened in OTL after the POD in 1450, i would like to know what you say guys. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well Tyrol, a majorly German state, being a French vassal, especially when in OTL they had a much stronger relationship to Bavaria and Austria. I'm still somewhat bitter I couldn't get Tyrol:(Andr3w777 (talk) 02:51, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

What I find a bit ASB was the Koori Union, allowing a massive colony in Australia. Also implausible was the Caliphate, and the exile states in Antillia/Atlantia.

03:10, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

i agree with the koori union, and the caliphate and must to point out the fall of spain, and the ottomans, i mean, both were the strongest nations of europe and the islamic world at their times and the english and french balkanization and later welsh supremacy on britain. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 06:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">There's also a line between that which is implausible and that which is impossble. There are a lot of OTL events that sound crazy in hindsight but every now and then you get black swan events. That and I have some sympathy for the Koori - if you make it possible to play tribes, chuckleheads like me will give it a shot, and we kinda have to write our own rules in terms of how to develop ourselves quickly without getting bounced. I know I crafted the Selk'nam strategy only AFTER reading all of the Koori, Apache, and Lakota history - and I still worry about getting dinged on the realism. Part of the problem is I think we don't have a lot of REAL history regarding tribes attempting to aggressively Eurpoeanize before the colonists reach them (which is the key "what if" of our entire game). By the way - I'm happy to accept any input on the conduct of the Selk'nam, as I am well aware of the fact that they have a lot of ASB potential...of course I'm still going to play hard and excecute my plans, but I'm always open to input seeing as past tribal players have been controversial. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Look. We found a cross-roads in time. Many had travelled down the most used path, yet some 25 of us were brave enough... to venture on the path less travelled on. The fun is in the journey, and the end is a bonus. So enjoy my fellow companions, for time is not done with us. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:34, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">If you are really strict with it, almost every map game is implausible. So don't worry about it, but some of the more implausible events include: the collaspe of England & the rise of Wales as the dominant nation in the British isles, the Mayan empire still existing, everything to do with the Koori, the Ethiopian colonial empire, the Indian colonial empire, the Cypriot colonial empire, the Caliphate (especially invading Russia), Italy's unification, the Balkans being a series of Italian vassals and other small states having colonial empires (japan, saxony, etc.) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:26, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Those are basically due to the lack of idiot emperors. When there are less idiots, there are more empires. History showed us that with Rome, the Mongols - even Oman. Plus, if this universe looked at ours, then they would say the stopping of Hitler was implausible, and a small chain of islands becoming the largest colonial power in history lunacy. Its just you viewpoint - and events which youthink will never happen, happen. Koori and Wales are the only two I would say are the worst ones. The Capilate could have happened if there were less idiots in OTL. Here they were - therefore it happened. India has had some good emperors if you know what i mean, lol), and has backed Ethiopia expanding. Ethiopia is like Russia - a developed country gets the chance to expand into the uncivilised lands around it. So critics like Dax should notice these points before commenting. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:46, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think Dax, like many others, just criticize because other map games that have come, and done events like PMII have been called ASB, even though the reason of how things came to be are like the ones here, so he is following the ASB standards of this wiki. and Like Von, i find odd cyprus, The maya empire and Englands collapse, though i find italy and germany's unification just a event caused by the Caliphate threat. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:20, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Allies
Well, I just want to establish a comprehensive list of who's allied with who. I think this would serve all the players well when it comes to player vs player wars. I'll start off by listing my allies.

23:24, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Germanic Reich (Brandenburg)

 * German Union (Bavaria, Saxony)
 * Russia
 * Welsh Empire
 * China
 * Cyprus
 * Arabia
 * Mayans
 * some others that I forgot

Cyprus

 * Brandeburg
 * Venice
 * Levantine Kingdom
 * Mayan Kingdom
 * Bavaria
 * maybe some others? I don't remember :P

Wales

 * Germany
 * Italy
 * Portugal
 * Spain
 * Maya
 * Selk'nam

Mononobe Shogunate

 * Italy
 * Myanmar
 * Orissa

Great Haruwin of th Selk'nam

 * Mononobe Shogunate
 * Wales
 * Magedeburg (which is now German Union, right?)
 * Friendly contact with Orissa, Netherlands, Portugal via their Atlantian colonies. We've also had indirect interaction with the Pope.

The Empire of Bavaria(German Union)
States that have pending Alliance requests from in game
 * German Union members(Saxony, Rhineland)
 * Brandenburg
 * Italia
 * France(trade deal)
 * Russian Federation
 * Arabian Federation
 * Cyprus
 * Levantine Kingdom
 * Maya Empire
 * Wales
 * China

United Maharajya

 * Ethiopian Empire
 * Italia

The Mayan Empire

 * Brandenburg
 * Cyprus
 * Wales
 * Bavaria
 * France
 * Anyone else I forgot...

Russian Realm

 * Italia
 * China
 * Germanic Reich

Posting for Wales/Rex?
Hey all  - Rex asked me to post for Wales while he's away. Happy to do so but I'm not a mod so I wanted to double check that I didn't need special dispensation for that.Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:09, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Protectorate rules
Seeing how some nations are getting protectorates I think we should make the rules about them clear. As far as I'm concerned they aren't as good as vassals so they should be treated as NPCs in the algorithm, but the protecting nation should always help out their protectorate in any wars they are in and if you don't then the protectorate treaties will end as you failed to protect them.

Extending there treatment as NPCs you can't post turns for them either, and they can only give +1 to algorithm strength scores as (P) and they must be close to where the war is happening otherwise they don't get involved (e.g. Normandy's Mogadishu protectorate can't send aid to Normandy's wars in Europe).Protectorates get a -3 algorithm penalty in all wars due to their reliance on their protector.

They are shown in the colour of the protecting nation on the map so players know if other PNs are protecting them, and also you can only have a maximum of 5 protectorates. If you have 3 or more protectorates you also get a war algorithm penalty of -2 for having protectorates as your military will be stretched trying to protect these far off nations. It'll take a 4 year minimum to establish a protectorate too. You can also then peacefully turn your protectorate into a vassal or puppet after 15 years of that nation being your protectorate. You can do it sooner than 15 years if you like but an algorithm will be needed.

Thoughts on these new rules? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:24, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think that this is good enough.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:51, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Prussia
Okay I'm back but unlike last time (and the time before) I actually have time now to do things. So I was wondering if I could take over Prussia, the user is inactive and it's grey on the map, I'd enjoy creating a rich history as the nation (maybe being a go between for Russia and Germany or something just as interesting) and I'd love to have something to do over the holidays that appeals to my more mechanical rules based side than creative writing I'm doing on other wikias. Kunarian TALK 20:05, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I was going to invade it as soon as I was done with Napoleon...so, er...you choice. Also Germany and Russia are long standing allies and share the same monarch for now.

20:17, July 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting... Well I hope to survive that brief encounter! Kunarian TALK 20:20, July 6, 2013 (UTC)