Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Countries/Regions/Politics
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2010 Toledo Confederation Presidential Election
So as mentioned on both the Toledo Confederation article and in the news, the Toledo Confederation is having an election. For about twenty years, the Democratic Party has had complete control over the government. Over the past few years however, their grasp has been slipping, especially after two schisms, resulting in the Labor Party and Liberal Party. Combined with the growth of the New Republicans (who are being backed by the Conservative Union, a libertarian organization, to displace the Democrats) this is a very real opportunity to end the Democratic oiligarchy. If the Democrats win, it will resecure their control and give them quite some time to regroup and attack their opponents.

The result of the election will also change how the nation is played for the forseeable future. I posted a poll on the Toledo Confederation discussion article, but it did not gather much attention. So, anyways, here is a poll. Please vote. You decide the fate of the Toledo Confederation. Minor parties have not been included in the poll for obvious reasons.

Who should win the 2010 Toledan Presidential Election? New Republican Party: Represenative Micheal R. Turner Democratic Party: President Micheal Bell Liberal Party: Senator Kristina Keneally

Please post any questions or comments here. Some discussion is already on the Toledo Confederation talk page. JackofSpades 02:00, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay, I was out of town for about two days. Looks like the Republicans are going to win this round. I'll try to get a news update up soon. JackofSpades 18:50, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Thunder Bay referendum
Thunjnder Bay was supposed to hold a referendujm on joining Canda, Superior or staying independent a few mountsh a go. what would be the result of this?--HAD 18:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously this has been forgotten, just like the war in Saguenay and the war in Europe, just one of many problems I guess. And I think no one can speculate on the outcome other than the author, although I think that the referendum would be directly connected to the outcome of the war--Vladivostok 19:48, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Become a protectorate of Canada Merge with Superior Stay Independent

Note:My browser had a spasm and marked "Stay Independent" when I meant to mark "Merge With Canada". Arstarpool 19:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as none of the options reached a 50% threshold shall we move the top two vote getters to a runoff? --GOPZACK 01:45, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --Lordganon 10:12, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Stay Independent

Resetting the runoff poll because the "merge with Superior" option officially lost. It had seven votes, the other two had eleven. Yankovic270 15:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

How the hell is Thunder Bay supposed to "Merge With Canada"? Most of Ontario is still outside of Canadian control. For God's sake the Canadians have yet to reclaim southern Quebec, let alone Ontario. I think that Thunder Bay should stay independant until at least 2020, when the Canadian province of Ontario is officially restored.

Yankovic270 22:58, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

So it's a problem with Canada when they are to "merge" with Thunder Bay, but not a problem when the Virginians control eastern Virginia which was ripped to shreds by nukes. I sense hypocracy...Arstarpool 02:48, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Thunder Bay merging with Canada....'''eventually. '''Let's be rational here. It would be much more convienient for both parties if they held off the merging until Canada reclaims the territory between itself and Thunder Bay. Which, at this rate of expansion, is around '''2020. '''And et tu Arstarpool? I defend the Commonwealth of California/Californian Republic and this is the thanks you give me? I try to be rational and you snap at me. All I'm saying is wait until its plausible. Which at the earliest is still ten years from now.

Yankovic270 02:57, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How about we bring back the more plausible possibility of them merging with Superior? Arstarpool 03:09, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I had that on the original runoff poll but Yank cleared it off, in defense of Yank it varies region to region as to who joins who & such. Thunder Bay is different then Virginia & such. GOPZACK 03:12, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You guys need to remember that while dormant, a debate is still going on as to the actual condition of Ontario after Doomsday, and how it was originally made much, much worse sounding than it actually would have been.

Also, Canada does control the Ontario coast of Hudson's Bay - and Thunder Bay is not all THAT far from there.

While it is more plausible for them to join with Superior, it would still make some sense for them to join Canada.

On another note, whoever came up with that date for Ontario in the first place was likely wrong in some regard - sure, southern would be out, but Northern Ontario, except for North Bay, would be fine to establish a minimal territory/province, on the same level as Quebec.

Lordganon 12:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

While they are "not all THAT far" there are no roads to create a viable connection between the two. GOPZACK 04:26, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. I think we should delay the vote until Canada actually controls the area in between itself and Thunder Bay. Until then, more practical voices will prevail over the blindly patriotic. Thunder Bay should remain independant, at least for now. I'm basically the practical person of the discussion, who noone listens to because the truth hurts. Thunder Bay can't and shouldn't rejoin Canada now. How many times to I have to say that it isn't practical at the moment?

Yankovic270 03:36, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be a tie, chaps.HAD 08:11, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

It is? I'm seeing 13-12 in favor of Canada (and I just voted in favor of Canada - however, the vote tally didn't change to reflect that). BrianD 15:23, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Never mind...the tally just changed. When are we cutting off the voting? BrianD 15:24, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no idea, but the vote is too close for this to be called a consensus. Also we must debate which is plausible. Yank makes a very valid point that there are no roads of use that would connect Canada's holdings along Hudson's bay with Thunder Bay. GOPZACK 06:11, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well, way I figure it there's gotta be a way we can combine the two - without it being something that happens in 2020.

Something along the lines of what the deal was with B.C. and the railroad when it joined Confederation?

Lordganon 07:08, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Madagascar Idea
I was wondering whether you'd be interested in an idea I had. What with Madagascar's economic problems, why not bring them into the African Economic Community. If they did that, I am sure New Britain would be willing to make political concessions. That way, Madagascar would recover, economically and politically, New Britain, KwaXhosa, Botswana and the RZA would be ardent supporters of Madagascar and they would be brought to the forefront of politics in Southern Africa. Not just that but Madagascar would become the largest nation in the union, giving it considerable leverage. Bob 10:05, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Bob. In OTL Madagascar had been slow to come over to the AEC. With the fall of its Soviet and French socialist support, though, I did not see that the People's Republic of Madagascar as being favorable to reaching out to Africa in that way. However, with the fall of the socialist republic, there might very well have been a change in this policy. The new democracy may have "worked better" in TTL.


 * Feel free to work on the period following 1991. I tried to imagine what would have gone differently, and came to the conclusion that Madagascar was fairly uninvolved in the affairs of the continent which was at the time in turmoil itself. Perhaps with different people arising to power (this is after 1983, so all's fair), there would be more co-operation. Anything has to be better than the nonsense that is happening there in OTL. Run your ideas by me on the Madagascar talk page. SouthWriter 15:48, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

East British expansion into Lincolnshire
I have written it down on the page. But I wanted confirmation as to whether this would be a sensible course of action. As East Britain is mostly based in Lincolnshire with some areas of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk, as well as Hull, it only seems natural for East Britain to take control of Lincolnshire. Bob 10:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

It could be done, but you'd need to make sure you do a good job with the locals. East Britain has only a population of 40,000, and would be incredibly thinly spread across Lincolnshire - unless you make sure the locals agree to become citizens of East Britain, you will have major issues in maximising the effectiveness of the land you've colonised. Fegaxeyl 08:44, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

A More Conservative America?
I've had this thought percolating in my mind for a while now but the recent discussion surrounding the Toledo election got me thinking about it again. With most urban more Liberal areas in America destroyed on Doomsday, leaving the rural, more conservative areas and mid sized cites (those swing districts you never hear the end of if you watch American TV in OTL) to fend for themselves. Most Democratic American survivor nations are run by Republicans/Conservative politicians. As I've done some research for some articles I've found that most are heavily Republican leaning or are home to those Conservative Democrats. Anyway I was wonder what you guys thought of this. --GOPZACK 02:30, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, that's pretty much it. With the urban areas gone, the rural conservatives would dominate most North American nations. Also, liberal ideas mostly center around stronger government and more expansive social policies. Post-Doomsday, almost all governments would become heavily centralized and powerful, but social programs would be disregarded, if they existed at all. The only exceptions to this would be areas like Toledo, the West Coast nations, and the northeast nations where more of the non-urban population was liberal/Democratic. Caeruleus 03:14, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think both of you pretty much nailed it. You also may want to consider the absence of American pop culture, which (IMO) is strongly influenced by those with a more liberal, non-religious mindset. Pop music, movies, TV, not to mention the internet....all butterflied away by Doomsday. Caeruleus I believe is accurate regarding the areas of North America TTL that would be more liberal, and I'd add Midland from Texas to that list....Midland is a place where conservatives and Baptists mix with liberals (who produce much of the art that comes out of that city). I would guess Yankovic's Republic of Lincoln would be liberal as well. Blue Ridge has a dynamic where the capital (Asheville) is more liberal, in keeping with its OTL equivalent, and the rest of the nation is more conservative. BrianD 04:17, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * A look at the county map for the US 1984 election may reflect this better than anything else. Of course, 800px-1984prescountymap2.png was the year that a very popular conservative (Reagan) won re-election, but it is the America as it was constituted (in OTL) soon after Doomsday. The blue counties are either in the urban areas or in areas where "minorities" are in the majority. It looks like Yank's Assiniboia was a hotbed of liberalism, as was the area of eastern Kentucky and West Virgina that becam his Virginian Republic. The Nebraska he transforms into a liberal utopia, though, seems to have voted for Reagan.
 * Interestingly, much of what Zack has as the failed "non-racist" CSA is populated by liberal voting blocks in the major cities! South Texas, with its heavy Hispanic population, votes Democratic though I doubt if they are "liberal" in the traditional sense (no irony intended). The "black belt" (original for the soil, but also came to apply to the African-Americans) in the south (AL-GA) includes Selma as well as my proposed (only on Georgia page) "New South." Toledo, indeed is liberal, Nuke-overlay-1984.png is Natchez, MS (!). I took the liberty of overlaying the US Nuclear strike map (as I had originally stored it on my computer) That map is to the right -- open it in a new tab to see the strikes (black dots). A look at the county maps for the 2000 (OTL) election gives a truer picture of the American dichotomy between urban and rural voting patterns. The population centers are shown to be the the most liberal -- and that election was a 50-50 in popular vote. SouthWriter 14:59, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use the 1984 elections as a measure for the location of liberals and conservatives in the country. 1984 was a realignment year where almost everyone voted Republican (remember, Reagan Democrats?), so many moderates and liberals who would have normally voted Democrat voted Republican. Otherwise, you are correct. Caeruleus 16:50, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Celtic Alliace FIFA 2010 LOGO
Hi I desing this logo for the FIFA 2010 World Cup. If no one objects i'm goign to put it in the page.VENEZUELA 22:24, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Excellent work, VENE. Thanks for taking the time to work these up!BrianD 00:03, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page

Food
Given that it's undoubtably a major issue in post-DD world, it might be interesting to look at it in more detail. Which countries are still suffering the most from shortages, which ones are doing okay, rationing and the extent thereof, national staples, changes in diet since before DD, which foods have almost vanished from many countries (eg, chocolate, coffee, tea, cane sugar, ect). Food production has probably changed in a few places as well, due to a combination of isolation, limited farmland, and climate change. What do you think?Tessitore 23:59, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

the Celtic allience and ANZ are doing okOwen1983 14:58, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have a brief section in the Toledo Confederation article on how food had been effected by Doomsday. A large portion of the population starved to death between 1984 and 1989 despite a quick response by local governments. Most farmland and livestock were destroyed by fallout resulting in government takeover. In the modern day, the federal government and most states have set up emergency stockpiles in case of another food shortage. I was considering adding something about the average Toledan's diet but was unsure where it would go or what it would be. JackofSpades 15:08, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've started a page on this as a Proposal (see below). Input would be appreciated.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've started a page on this as a Proposal (see below). Input would be appreciated.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Clothes
This has be brought up before but it didn't really go anywhere which is a shame since there's more to it then you'd think. For one thing cotton would become a rare commodity in places where it isn't cultivated (eg, Europe) due to the pre-DD trade network collapsing, and synthetic materials would probably also be quite rare in most places, which would probably lead to linen and wool becoming the most common types of fabric in a lot of places. Fashion would probably give way at least partly to practicality, although human nature would probably stop it from dying a death altogether. Climate change would have an impact (I'm seeing a lot of light fabrics with long sleeves and legs in summer, not to mention a lot of wide brimmed hats), while the long periods of isolation from the reat of the world would lead to regional styles developing. Despite what you'd expect from a world that's as messed up as this one, I'd imagine that there'd probably be a lot of bright colours rather then black, mainly because like shiny things, humanity seems to have an inbuilt attraction to them, plus when things are depressing you do what you can to cheer yourself up.That's just my thoughts on the matter though.Tessitore 23:59, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

I would imagine Virginian suits looking more like Colonel Sanders' famous suit than the traditional black tuxedo. It's a cultural icon, and the white color makes it much more practical when wearing outside. The overall stye of colthing is relatively anachronistic, as items from the 80's mixing with clothes styled after the Civil War-era.

Yankovic270 22:23, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Wool production is what made Britain rich in former ages, it would undoubtedly do so again. I can see British states leading Europe in textiles. Bob 10:21, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Now there's a nice idea. Tessitore 15:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

About wool - I am planning for a commune of Essex citizens to settle the Isle of Sheppey in Kent. Sheppey (deriving from the Saxon for 'sheep') would probably be the heart of a textiles industry, and the colonists there likely to hold a monopoly on the industry for a long time yet, with enough strength to be practically independent of government. Fegaxeyl 10:32, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * A monopoly in Essex perhaps but probably not as far as the the rest of the British nations are concerned. After all, Cleveland includes the Yorkshire Moors which are pretty much sheep central and wool is already one of their major exports.Tessitore 15:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

With all the sheep, and even the sheerers, you are forgetting the manuafacturing facilities. The wool could be worked on looms in small cottage industries, but would there be the large mills such as those in OTL in South Carolina, Mexico and Southeast Asia? Assuming enough looms to process the wool into fabric, there would then have to be factories to actually transform the cloth into clothing. International trade would have to develop before much more than primitive utilitarian clothing could be made. The preservation of old clothes, on the other hand, would certainly be encouraged in the meantime. SouthWriter 16:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine that textile mills would be more or less a certainty. England had them long before Mexico or South-east Asia after all (in fact we pretty much invented them), come to think of it some of them might still be around in TTL. Even if there isn't there's probably enough people with the necessary know-how, not to mention written information, to construct new ones. As for international trade, both people and their wardrobes managed for centuries without it. Do not underestimate what can be achieved with a sewing machine and some creativity, although as I said above cotton would probably be a lot rarer. You are probably right about old clothing being preserved though, with resources being a lot less plentiful then pre-DD I'd imagine that an attitude of Make-Do-And-Mend would apply to a lot of things.Tessitore 21:20, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of what you think about the Virginians, they do not wear military uniforms all the time. Just when they are working. When they have spare time they wear civilian clothes. Say a Virginian goes to a movie, he/she might wear a t-shirt and jeans. The guys working at the theater would wear uniforms (which is what an old-fashioned usher outfit looks like).

Yankovic270 17:36, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

In Cleveland wool is used most often for clothing, however using an idea the Germans thought of during WW1 many work clothes and military uniforms are made of nettle fibres as they are easy to produce and very hard wearing. There are also clothing made of flax and hemp --Smoggy80 17:35, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Smoggy, it seems great minds think alike. I was thinking about the 'nettle linen' and whether or not anyone would've used it myself.Tessitore 17:48, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Folklore
A possible addition to the already interesting culture section. Folklore is pretty much a universal human tradition and something with the cultural and psychological impact of Doomsday followed by a lengthy period of isolation would probably lead to a whole load of new additions. Songs, stories, urban legends, ect. There'd probably be some new superstitions as well, given the dangers of the post-DD world and the vunerablity of the population. I don't know about anyone else, but I think it'd be a good way of having a look inside people's heads.Tessitore 23:59, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Atlantic/Carribean American Authority for US Territories
I would like to make a page for the US's Atlantic and Carribean territories and a government they could form. This proposed "" would govern Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Navassa Island, Gitmo, Serranilla Bank, and any other territories for a certain period of time until little by little the organization was diminished to only a small area of control where they would remain to the present day. Please if anybody would like to work on this with me list your name below. Arstarpool 00:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your proposal conflicts with the Puerto Rico article somewhat. It pretty much states that the Commonwealth government was running itself up to 1984 when they established their independence. Also it has already been established on the South Florida article and talk page that the Cubans would control Gitmo. Mitro 04:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is some wiggle room here seeing as the Caribbean Federation is fairly vague. Also I think it should be a member of the East Caribbean Federation seeing at it has adopted its currency. Also I'd like to see what territories the controls now or has controlled in the past. --GOPZACK 18:05, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Zack, there were indeed quite a few territories in the western Atlantic and/or Eastern Caribbean. Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, working with the Consulate office in the Bahamas perhaps, could easily have established control over the islands in question almost immediately. Reagan's office could have had some contact with as many consulates as possible (though from reading this time line that is not so clear). These territories should have been very active in the days immediately following DD - receiving east coast refugees, sending relief ships (cruise ships that had off-loaded their passengers before returning to ports on the continental US, etc.
 * I will volunteer to help Arstar on this. If the article on Puerto Rico has to be changed, we will have to tread carefully because of QSS, but it is always possible that the original editor(s) did not take all pertinent things into account. --SouthWriter 20:02, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * So here is a loose history of the USAR, then:
 * It takes its roots in the Gitmo situation. Regardless of what happens with Gitmo, the US Navy will send some troops out to the Carribean to check on the islands.
 * Navassa Island is as always, quietly empty.
 * The US Virgin Islands are, well, in confusion and in water and food shortages, but have reached a level of stability.
 * Puerto Rico is in chaos because they actually were hit on Doomsday, but not in disarray.
 * By the 1980's, Puerto Rico will probably leave the remnant, or possibly even fracture into an American side and a Hispanic side.
 * Eventually the organization will join the ECF under, well, unique conditions regarding their soverignity (representation, political autonomy, etc.)
 * Ultimatley the Remnant will serve as a service to keep America alive (in a way) in the Atlantic/Carribean and to help refugees and stragglers that didn't make it to the Gathering Order (which would be almost all of the Navywith the Panama Canal closed they wouldn't want to trek aroung South America to get to Australia.)
 * If you are gonna work on it please do, as I can rarely log on these days and I need someone to help me work on my articles.
 * If you are gonna work on it please do, as I can rarely log on these days and I need someone to help me work on my articles.


 * Oh, and at the moment it controls Navassa Island, which would probably be repopulated by now at Lulu Town, Gitmo, assuming the Americans defeat the relatively weak Cuban army and others who made it through the Cactus Curtain and the Mine Curtain, and the USVI, assuming the ECF is modified to include the USAR under special conditions. Arstarpool 21:37, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

The Sultanate of Turkey is the successor state of the now defunct Republic of Turkey. I've started to write the article. Commentary and ideas are welcome. Most of the pre-Doomsday history is straight off Wikipedia. And I hope this doesn't conflict with any already accepted nations in this althist. I've accounted for the existence of Kurdistan, the Greek control of Rhodes and the (formerly) Turkish Straits, and the possiblity of an enlarged Armenia in eastern Turkey, though I'm not sure there's an accepted article about Armenia.

Caeruleus 22:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, its pretty awesome. Any objections? Arstarpool 17:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Heh. That Caucasian war bit is impossible, realistically, and the state is still too large.

Lordganon 03:03 June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if it included only southern Turkey, and shared little/no borders with Greece, then it would be acceptable. The Causcausian War crap should be taken out. Sorry, but I didn't read through the whole article, heh. Arstarpool 16:31, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

You have to erase the Georgian and Armenian things. There is a state on Georgia since much before you wrote this article. Fedelede 16:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Bye bye Turkish Empire I guess. Caucasian War portion removed. Caeruleus 18:29, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Still way too big as well as expanding too fast, and he's right about the strikes - dont know why I didn't notice before. You have to remember, the list is only a guideline, not anything definite. Some research is involved in this project, remember.

You need to take the criticism and work with it, not ignore it.

Lordganon 10:50, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Christ! He just gave himself nukes. Not getting graduated with that there, buddy.

Still needs to be smaller and expand less, especially with the new nuclear strikes. No way is that happening now. Add Edirne, in European Turkey, as well, please.

Lordganon 10:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know per our earlier discussion, I have posted my thoughts as you asked on your discussion page for Turkey. Please let me know if you wish to talk further in the future.--Fxgentleman 03:30, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Any other objections to its graduation? I believe I have fixed most of the previous issues. Caeruleus 15:42, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Um..... no, you haven't. It's still illogical for it to be that size. If I'd been the only one to say so, I'd let it slide, but I'm not the only one. Thus, I do object.

Lordganon 05:176, August 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * But it's not illogical for it to be that size. It makes sense and is explained in the article... Caeruleus 23:15, August 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * LG, you're the only one left who has signaled any opposition. So, last call, can it be graduated now? Caeruleus 20:19, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just think it seems too optimistic. Every rival just seems to fall over and submit.Oerwinde 11:44, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * And...? There are lots of optimistic articles in this TL. There is also always one state that always wins their battles to unite their nation (i.e. Genghis Khan and the Mongols, Red Army in China and Russia, etc.). Caeruleus 19:51, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, you're always complaining that Greece is ASB, so then why are you sinking to its level? Just because more than a couple of nations here are optimistic doesn't mean you have to make yours bigger than it should be out of spite or because you want your nation to bloody recreate the Ottoman Empire; ever heard of the "Would you jump off a bridge if..." saying? Mr.Xeight 21:59, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unlike Greece, I'm not creating an international empire and an entirely unrealistic Mediterranean superpower in a country that would probably revert to a Peloponnese War-like state. Also, to clarify, my main problem with Greece was not that it was unrealistic (lots of things in althists are), but that there was no detail on to how everything happen so it seemed as if it became a superpower from nothing. Now the article is much more detailed and I thank you, and the others who assisted you, for that.
 * The only reason this article is may seem optimistic, in my opinion, is because I didn't dwell very much on the famine, disease, death, and general destruction post-Doomsday. I also assume that Turkish nationalism remains relatively strong post-Doomsday, which is not unreasonable to assume. Between nationalism and pre-Doomsday preparations, I crafted Turkey to be reunited in a relatively short amount of time, which happened previously during post-WWI Turkey and during the initial Ottoman unification of the Turkish peoples of Anatolia in similar timeframes. Plus, Turkey isn't a particularly large nation, so unification can occur in a much shorter time period than it can in other nations. Caeruleus 22:09, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of Macedonia
Its a small nation in the southern Balkan peninsula, its a constitutional monarchy, based off mostly of the real Macedonia and headed by a real Yugoslav prince, living in Seville in 1983 which wasn't nuked (I checked). Ownerzmcown 02:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

You still dont get it - The list of targets is NOT COMPLETE. Seville is a major port and industrial center and as a result would have been clobbered. Also, you do not state how on earth he could have gotten all the way from there to Yugoslavia in the first place, or gotten all those men. And that's besides the fact that Yugoslavia was not hit at all and survived as a state until 1985.

The state is too large besides, and interferes with too much. Make it the size of modern Macedonia at MOST.

Lordganon 3:41, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Look, I know you're pissed about me saying Macedonia contacted Greece without talking to you, but I apoligized on the talk page. Plus, you operate a lot of countries who are large than Macedonia, and were established later than it. Ownerzmcown 3:47, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ganon, please STAY OUT OF THIS. You are out of place here. Coming from someone who just started, his article is pretty good. Yugoslavia was NOT HIT WHATSOEVER. While I agree the borders should be like modern Macedonia, you cannot diss him and saying that Seville was hit is totally false. Yugoslavia was NON ALIGNED. It would not be destroyed. Arstarpool 05:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Seville is in SPAIN, Not Yugoslavia.

Lordganon 10:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Tehnically, the Croatia article I'm writing has Belgrade nuked and since Yank is doing Serbia and I think he agrees as well it would be nuked. If Vienna was nuked, why not Belgrade? The USSR already had plans to attack both countries in case of a war.--Vladivostok 12:27, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you look on a map of Europe, the Greater Macedonia area is relativley small comapred to other nations. Ownerzmcown 12:50, June 28. 2010 (UTC)

I know where Seville is. And I don't know why a completely neutral, communist country would be hit by the USSR. Arstarpool 13:03, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then you'll have to ask yourself why Vienna was nuked. It was also as neutral as it gets.--Vladivostok 14:12, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, Vienna was nuked because the Soviets assumed NATO would violate the neutrality of Austria and move in for invasion through there. They took it out to neutralize a threat. If a neutral communist country is nuked it will be the allies that nuke it.Oerwinde 16:20, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I never really specifically stated who nuked Belgrade, just that it was obliterated. Now, in a conventional war, the Soviets, or NATO, which ever came first, would try to invade Yugoslavia. Now, that wouldn't happen during Doomsday. I just suspected that perhaps one of the superpowers, if not both, would try to take Yugoslavia out of the equation in Europe during the nuclear exchange.--Vladivostok 16:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

If I recall correctly we had a discussion on whether Yugoslavia was nuked about a year ago; therefore the caretaker of Macedonia and whoever else wants to prove his own opinion is true will have to dig through the Archives to the find it. Though I have to warn the caretaker of Macedonia; generally speaking when a nation is up for debate on whether it was nuked or not, I can't think of a time (remember I'm older and went inactive for months, I can't talk about the recent past) when any nation in question was spared; the council of contributors usually ruled in favor of any sort of bombings, probably based on the idea that NATO or the Warsaw Pact would bomb them "just to be on the safe side". Mr.Xeight 19:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the list of targets is unconfirmed, and needs to be updated. Spain is no exception, and I find it hard to believe that Seville would not be hit. Even it it wasn't, it is not explained how on earth he'd get there in the first place. If he were to somehow survive the hit, it is extremely unlogical for him to have not only made it to the bunker, but also survive with so many followers and gotten there in the first place.

And, as I noticed on the talk page for the article, it is illogical that a bunch of Greeks and former communist subjects would except him as king anyway. The chetniks from the war and the anti-royal propaganda afterwards would argue against it, anyway.

Lordganon 03:37, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think that I've got most questions answered in the article and that the major points of the article are finished, so I believe my article should be read over now and considered for the canon. Ownerzmcown 02:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This "bunker" seems a little fanciful. Did Alexander actually have one in Spain? Can you provide a source to prove it? Mitro 02:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I can in fact, not provide a source as of yet, but good reasoning, Alexander was and is a very important person in society, he is the Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, which although isn't a country anymore, he still is a high-ranking member of a historical society and would easily be given permission and money to build a bunker. Ownerzmcown 02:49, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * We can't just assume he would have a resources to build it even though he is a VIP. There were a lot of VIPs during the Cold War who had the resources to build nuclear bunkers and didn't. Assuming that this exiled royal did have a bunker without any source is too ASB. Mitro 02:55, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

You can't keep track of everything in history, Alexander lived in Spain, I believe as a guest of the King of Spain, and there is a distinct possibility he had hereditary connections to the Spanish Royal Family, the Spanish Royal Family was very important at the time, and probably had bunkers for multiple members, maybe even Alexander, I can't say exactly, besides the only way I'll really ever know is if I asked Alexander himself, besides, one, that will never happen, and two, it is in my opinion an interesting part of the story that makes sense in multiple ways. Ownerzmcown 21:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This TL is supposed to be as realistic as possible. Thus we try to keep it as plausible as possible. Article have been marked obsolete that assumed that a person or place would be overly-prepared for Doomsday when they were not. When Yank proposed a new Germany article he had the founder of Aldi apparently buy land in Saudi Arabia before Doomsday, even though there was no proof of this. An early version of the Republic of Indiana had Dan Quayle apparently knowing that Doomsday was going to happen and thus warn the Governor of Indiana to prepare for it. Again no proof that this happened, these were guesses and in my opinion bad guesses. With your assumption about Alexander you admit yourself that you have almost no way to prove that he had a fallout shelter/bunker. To just assume might be interesting, but it is not plausible. Mitro 02:56, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm ust saying, even today we know that everything in history was never written down, thats why we know what we do about Ancient Egypt and such, their are the parts of history we can prove, like Alexander was from Yugoslavia, and the parts we can't prove due to no documentation and have to assume, like Alexander, a crown prince, having a bunker. Ownerzmcown 07:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We make assumptions about ancient history for a reason, because it was really long ago. The year 1983 is not ancient history. Ben once found the names and location of the daughters of the governor of the governor of Bermuda. We don't just assume someone was somewhere or had something just because they were an important person. By 1983 the bunker craze was already long gone and if we assume one VIP had a bunker than we have to assume that every VIP has one, which does not make sense. If you can prove he had a bunker than great, but if you can't than its logical to assume that he did not have a bunker. Mitro 16:04, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Alexander was a member of the British Royal Family until 1972 when he married a Catholic dutchess from Brazil/Spain (not sure on that one) because he was a descendant of Victoria and Alfred, her second son, in the 1950's from fear of a Soviet nuclear threat, the British royal family built large underground cities and bunkers for each member of the royal family. If by 1972 he was living in Spain, he would still have an estate where he had access to a bunker because as a partial descendant of both the Spanish and British royal family, he would be given a bunker as both royal families thought important that all members have one. Ownerzmcown 13:45, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I've changed it so now it says he was having a bunker constructed prior to DD due to rising tensions between east and west and had it expanded upon days before DD and after it, too. Ownerzmcown 12:12, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still not convinced that Alexander would have a bunker. Where exactly do you draw the line on the British Royal Family? Most of the royals on the continent are related to them, would the British government shell out cash for all of their relatives, even those who are not even citizens of Britain? Mitro 21:21, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Look at an ancestry family tree for Alexander and he has ancestors who are British royals, and, although he wasn't a real king, he was a high-ranking member of society to many people, and was inevitably connected personally to members of the British Royal family, they would likely have given him a bunker, and if you read the article you'd see that I changed it to say he had one under construction due to recent tensions between the US and the USSR, and had it finished before DD. Ownerzmcown 22:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw that, but since it is information pertaining to pre-Doomsday it needs to be 100% factual, or else it becomes the POD of the TL if it predates the current POD. So again, do you have any source that states he had such a bunker? If not we are making assumptions. Mitro 22:21, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Look Mitro, many people don't know who Alexander is, I didn't know him until just a few months ago, I doubt with the resources I have that I could find out much about the bunkers of Europe's royal families, presidents have tons of bunkers that we probably don't know about, is that an asumption, yes, but is it true, its very likely, and its the same with Alexander, and people still do this with modern, history, we don't exactly know, so we must assume. Besides the timeline has hundreds of PODs, every country from this TL is made by a POD which makes mine insignifigant in my opinion. Ownerzmcown 00:26, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know history on every article remains the same until the ultimate POD of this TL. All other changes to history are based from that point. If that is not the case please point it out to me. As for your proposal, Alexander might not be that well known, but I have seen people find information on some pretty obscure topics on this wiki. If you have made a good faith attempt to find out whether Alexander prepared for some future nuclear conflict and did not find anything, then the most logicial assumption is that he did not have one. I'm not sure why its more logical to believe he did have one. Presidents have bunkers, but sitting presidents are different from exiled-heads of royal houses. Now we can continue this back and forth, but I would like to hear what the other editors have to say? Mitro 02:14, August 10, 2010 (UTC)'
 * Before I could write my article on the Piedmont region of South Carolina, I had to deal with a fictional uprising of African Americans that took Anglo Americans as slaves. While I was trying my best to use real people, a city-state in my "back yard" had been created that was rather implausible. I first created a character to take over Anderson, SC, but then was able to find a real person that who rose in importance AFTER 1983 but fit the need quite well (he was unaccounted for in 1983 and was from South Carolina originally). I say this to defend the survival of Prince Alexander. If he was in Seville, Spain, and it was not on a list of nuked cities, then QSS over-rules the more nebulous QAA. We should not assume an important European city was a primary target unless it has NATO or US troups stationed there. Spain was not a strategic threat to the USSR at the time, so Seville should be assumed safe. How Alexander got to Macedonia, and whether the Yugoslavs would accept him, are different questions. But I don't see any reason why he need have been in a bunker to have survived. SouthWriter 03:33, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Before I could write my article on the Piedmont region of South Carolina, I had to deal with a fictional uprising of African Americans that took Anglo Americans as slaves. While I was trying my best to use real people, a city-state in my "back yard" had been created that was rather implausible. I first created a character to take over Anderson, SC, but then was able to find a real person that who rose in importance AFTER 1983 but fit the need quite well (he was unaccounted for in 1983 and was from South Carolina originally). I say this to defend the survival of Prince Alexander. If he was in Seville, Spain, and it was not on a list of nuked cities, then QSS over-rules the more nebulous QAA. We should not assume an important European city was a primary target unless it has NATO or US troups stationed there. Spain was not a strategic threat to the USSR at the time, so Seville should be assumed safe. How Alexander got to Macedonia, and whether the Yugoslavs would accept him, are different questions. But I don't see any reason why he need have been in a bunker to have survived. SouthWriter 03:33, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

The Jordan article has the King return from Thailand to resume leadership of his country. If the Jordanian King can return from a country in another region, then it is plausible that Alexander could have returned from Spain.

Yankovic270 06:20, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm very sure I've got all points covered and that my article is ready to be graduated. Ownerzmcown 18:15, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we please drop the part about the bunker. If we assume South is right that he would have likely survived without it, why is it so necessary that he have it?  The fact that it is in the article and there is no proof he owned such a building is very implausible.  Mitro 18:40, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Me and Sunkist's proposal for a military alliance in Italy. Arstarpool 05:49, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * No mention of the Alpine Confederation? Kind of odd to me, since it has been stated time and time again that it is the principle contributor to North Italian stability in the face of the Sicilians.--Vladivostok 07:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is more of an Italian alliance to combat Sicily within the peninsula. That would be like having Pais del Oro in the Organization of British Nations. Arstarpool 07:08, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I wasn't thinking of them joining, of course not. But perhaps some funding would be in order. I mean the AC is de jure neutral but de facto it actively supports the ADC and northern Italy. Thus, I was thinking something along the lines of them being an observer. Maybe the ADC as a whole could be the same.--Vladivostok 07:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I'll write it in. Arstarpool 15:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 01:31, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

With Tuscany re-written to fit with canon, are there still any objections? Arstarpool 04:48, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * None here. --GOPZACK 05:19, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * For some reason..San Marino is a proposal...--Sunkist- 05:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion on whether San Marino was in Sicily, but I think its safe since canon makes no mention of San Marino at all. Besides, as caretaker of Sicily I would never add something in that would cancel out San Marino's existince.

Any other objections? Arstarpool 06:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

There's a simple solution to eliminate any troubles - change the Adriatic city that is on the Sicilian border in the Sicily article to one further south on the coast. Ancona or Fano would work nicely.

Lordganon 06:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be better to just maintain San Marino in its OTL borders as an enclave within Sicily. Makes it hard to be a full time member of the IPA but still. Also, objection to the article: New Rome is deep within Sicilian territory, the IPA likely has no contact. We need to iron out the Genoese state mentioned in the Sicily article, that would likely be a member of the IPA as well.Oerwinde 09:27, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I believe the Federation of Greece, which it seems from the little I've perused of goings-on from Italy hasn't been talked about a lot (doesn't surprise me-it seems I scare a lot of people, unfortunately), would want to be part of this alliance and work with both the anti-fascistic Italians and Alpinians who are also giving their men and other resources to the cause. Mr.Xeight 17:21, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Balochistan
Another country in Afghanistan. Any objection? VENEZUELA 01:14, July 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just think Afghanistan will be too crowed. Most of the country is not to suitable for life nevermind an organized nation. --GOPZACK 01:46, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Zack. Arstarpool 02:37, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objection to marking this as obsolete? --GOPZACK 14:47, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, but knowing Vene, he'll mark it as a proposal again saying that there are too many nations in America so there can be a lot of nations everywhere else. Arstarpool 16:23, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

VENEZUELA 16:13, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll have to tell him that the geography and conditions very by location. If he fails to realize this we can take further action. WE'll just have to wait and see. --GOPZACK 16:52, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact were Balochistan is located no parts were nuked. VENEZUELA 19:00, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh my God, I am about to lose my patience. So four nations will be able to survive in desert lands with little to no trade? Arstarpool 21:33, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * First what 4 nations? and second I never said they doesn't have trade. VENEZUELA 21:35, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is the Northern Alliance, Afghanistan, the other one you made, and Balochistan. It is logical that in a time like this, trade would be cut off. Use your head, Vene. Arstarpool 01:21, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * One nation in Afganistan tops! Pick one you think is most viable then the rest should be marked as obsolete. GOPZACK 01:42, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Zack, has anyone ever told you your right almost all the damn time? Arstarpool 02:17, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! As a matter of fact yes. Thanks! --GOPZACK 02:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm at my witts end with Vene. Any objections to making this article obsolete? Arstarpool 03:31, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, and wait until other people that are not you or Gopzack writes. VENEZUELA 03:33, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * What's your objection, Vene? Arstarpool 03:38, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair, before we mark this as obsolete lets here what Vene has to say. --GOPZACK 03:41, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting....Arstarpool 15:18, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Balochistan is to small, so in fact it can survive and be away from the radiation
 * there is no Northern Alliance (except in Canada)
 * the Baloch had live like in the 1 century for years, so in fact they can survive
 * The Baloch wouldn't care about the deaths because they just want a nation since the 18 Century.

A Baloch nation would be interesting, in that it would likely cause issues in Pakistan and Iran, as parts of them are part of the Balochistan region and have large Baloch populations.Oerwinde 20:07, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

That better guys? If so, any objections to graduation as a stub?

Will be making the other Afghan one more.... workable. It's just no good with that map.

--Lordganon 16:46, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I still have my doubts about the viability of another Afgahn survivor nation. Ven points out that "the Baloch had live like in the 1 century for years, so in fact they can survive" but they never had to deal with a nuclear war & the final point Ven makes lets of the impression that the Baloch are pretty heartless, which I doubt is true. --GOPZACK 17:57, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit - I completely disregarded the vast majority of what he said and wrote, and made it realistic. This as written now is essentially an Iranian puppet, honestly.

But, to only leave the area of Afghanistan as the "Northern Alliance" and the Pakistani-supported state being the only "nations" seems like it wouldn't be enough.

Lordganon 10:47, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Still I think the "Northern Alliance" and the Pakistani-supported state is enough unless Iran annexed the area seeing as they are as you say a "puppet" regime. --GOPZACK 23:11, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Northern alliance really is not defined at all in canon - its only really mentioned. But, in my mind it is led by Massoud and occupies the rough area the OTL Northern Alliance controlled when the attacks occurred in 2001.

But looking at the world map, the Pakistani-backed state only controls parts of east-central Afghanistan - and leaves plenty of space for other states.

This one here is up against the Iranian border, and is basically to prevent domination of the area by Pakistan. While they may be effectively allies, I see no reason why they'd want Pakistan to have total influence over the area.

Heck, I see an opening in the northwest where something else could exits, even if it is only under GLA control.

Lordganon 00:50, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I am going to revamp the article when I have access to a computer on a regular basis, so please refrain from editing until I do so. Arstarpool 05:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hows it looking? Better than before? Please do not leave a long comment because it is hard for me to view on the current device I am using but just tell me if you may. Arstarpool 22:27, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Better, I think, but Erie is still listed as the capital, which is a problem.

Lordganon 23:31, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

How about now? Any objections to graduation? If it is something regarding Erie please don't take it into account because when I have the time I will revamp the Erie part of the article. Arstarpool 23:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * We take everything into account when graduating. As for Erie, the part of rebuilidng it makes as much sense as Richmond being rebuilt by Virginia. WP is a small survivor state. They do not have the time or resources to commit to rebuilding a city destroyed by a nuclear bomb. Such energy could be spent doing a number of other more important projects. Mitro 18:32, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

With the destruction of Erie, why would WP still be reaching out to Norfolk County across Lake Erie. Also there are still a TON of references that need to be removed. --GOPZACK 18:38, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Invasion of Norfolk
A trio of invasions following up the recent invasion of West Suffolk, written by me, Verence and Bob respectively. Fegaxeyl 09:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Southeastern Cambridgeshire is completed. Objections to graduation? Fegaxeyl 11:55, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Isle of Eels looks done. Graduated. Fegaxeyl 10:05, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro reverted it to non-graduated. I got ahead of myself. Any objections to graduation? Fegaxeyl 16:21, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I graduated it. Mitro 16:10, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

True British Army (1983: Doomsday)
links into Essex and Woodbridge.--Smoggy80 19:51, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Katanga (1983: Doomsday)
My proposal for a breakaway satate in the former Democratic Republic of the Congo (which I'm assuming fell to pieces following Doomsday).

Yankovic270 19:48, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Me and JackOfSpades' proposal for a international organization in the Great Lakes region. Arstarpool 01:34, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to passing as a stub? Arstarpool 00:13, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we get a list of members, that way people don't have to consult the map. Mitro 15:02, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also London, Pennsylvania and Toledo should become canon first before this is graduated. --GOPZACK 19:00, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this proposal might actually conflict with this article: League of the United American States (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 16:03, August 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it does. The League of the United American States (1983: Doomsday) was a proposed idea as I recall and hadn't even been foramlly voted on by Superior's Congress. --GOPZACK 16:26, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that is my point though. The LUAS is a canon article and pretty much seems similar to this current proposal. If the proposal is graduated, than why would this organization even be proposed if Superior was already a member of the UC in 2007? Mitro 21:28, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * yeah but, LUAS does not even exist yet its a bill purposed by Harold Duke some right-winger in the Congress of Superior. With that said, I really don't know Superior would be a member now that I think about it. In fact I don't know why the other members would want Superior in it. Superior would dominate all decisions made in the UC. --GOPZACK 03:17, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar became caretaker of Superior, but he may not have been aware of the LUAS (which if I recall correctly was Lahbas' proposal). BrianD 03:49, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are their any articles he's not a caretaker of? ;) I think your right Lahbas did write that article. --GOPZACK 03:55, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

How does one become a "caretaker" of an article he has not edited? Arstar was appointed to look out for vandalism and "trolls" (which I assume are obnoxious articles offensive and totally irrelevant). I am hard-pressed to keep my own articles updated, much less hop around fixing elements of other folks' articles.

Apart from that, the UC seems workable. It is not the grand scheme to bring the USA back under a new umbrella (an idea I like, by the way). The UC is a locally based organization, and probably would have been founded some time before anyone knew of the LoN. --SouthWriter 04:36, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * He asked Lahbas for permission to adopt Superior (and Wisconsin). BrianD 14:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did Lahbas grant him permission? GOPZACK 01:19, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Zack, yes on Wisconsin, no on Superior. The latter was my misunderstanding. I got Lahbas and Superior mixed up with Mjdoch and Celtic Alliance. Lahbas did give Arstar permission to be caretaker of Wisconsin (with a couple of conditions), and Arstar did in fact ask him for Superior. According to their talk pages Lahbas never responded back in regards to Superior. So as far as I can tell, Lahbas is still caretaker for Superior.

Ah, I don't see any radical edits by Arstar on the Superior article so we need not worry about that for now. I still think this alliance can't work with Superior in it. Pennsylvania (if graduated) will be weaker then Arstar's original article, Toledo is in decent shape, Niagara Falls is small and London doesn't have much of an army so Superior would basically run that show with an iron fist. GOPZACK 01:22, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Waitasecond. Oerwinde makes reference to Arstar being caretaker of Superior. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Arstarpool#Superior.2FOntario.2FCanada.2FSaguenay_War BrianD 18:03, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the adoption rules somebody must ask somebody who hasn't edited in three months or more to adopt a page. If the editor does not respond in a week the article is theirs. Other than a few talk page related edits within the three months Lahbas did not edit, meaning that I am the current caretaker of Superior. However I will return it to Lahbas should he request for it to be returned. Arstarpool 03:37, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you plan to do with Superior? BrianD 20:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Rhodope-Vidin War
Call it the Bulgarian finale. Will be ongoing through the month.

Lordganon 02:20, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank and expanded by Ven. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Caeruleus. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Oer. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

List articles


I have a concern regarding the article dealing with National Historic Landmarks in Virginia. Several of those listed were located in Richmond, VA and likely destroyed along with the city on Doomsday. I mentioned it previously, but I noted they are still there. When this article is canonized, I believe this part should be accordingly adjusted. --Fxgentleman 04:46, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

So do I. I like Yank, but his insistence on Richmond having survived is almost as bad as Owen's perpetual attempts to retroactively save Manchester, England. BrianD 01:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I adjusted it so that Richmond was struck, but with a non-nuclear ICBM. I altered the page to make the landmarks in Richmond reconstructions of the originals.

Yankovic270 14:52, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Caeruleus. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Former obsolete article revived by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Former stub expanded on by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by BSE. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I did my research, and this is actually Bob's grandfather who died in OTL, but somehow managed to survive irridation and starvation. Arstarpool 23:39, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by BSE. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

New Afrika
A page I'm about to write on a African American survivor state in the United States.

--Yankovic270 21:17, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Without a set location this article is as good as nothing. Any objections to making it obsolete? Arstarpool 20:46, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstarpool we do not require articles to be completed shortly after they are created. Give Yank a chance to work on this article. Mitro 21:16, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Seriously what is your problem Arstarpool? You're been acting like an asshole for the past week or so. So what the hell is your problem? Anyway, I'm going to give to article a location and then I'm going to put it up for adoption.

Yankovic270 02:19, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Kola
Article I'm going to make about a survivor nation in the Kola Peninsula.

Sorry, forgot to sign. CheesyCheese 00:27, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Great idea. It seems that we have one former Soviet state for every five former Americans. That is an exagguration, but it is still great to have the region be fleshed out more.

Yankovic270 06:25, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

The First Coast
A new survivor nation in Florida.--Sunkist- 06:11, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Anything look out of place or something I need to change? Trying to get it canonized as fast as possible.--Sunkist- 20:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

If nobody objects I say we get it graduated pretty quickly because without this article graduated the Republic of Florida will have to wait a bit more. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, this article was just created a couple of days ago and IMO all North American survivor states should not be graduated quickly due to the huge debate that happened a few months ago. Lets give it some time for people to review. Mitro 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * How 'bout now, any objections to passing as stub? Arstarpool (August 21)


 * I agree that the First Coast would have arisen as some sort of community, but that it should be a new "nation" with which the two other Floridas reunite is still not proven. Just as likely, the governments in the larger states would combine and then admit the east coast communities. As for the Republic of Florida, there is no need to graduate that article before the details are worked out. --SouthWriter 23:39, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Article by me and Sunkist and Zack. It will be the result of a unification between First Coast, South Florida and Gainesville. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to stubby-ness? Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much I'm restating the same reasons that I had above. Mitro 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The nation-state of First Coast (East Florida) is itself still a proposal, not having proven its own viability. The date you give for South Florida joining up is in 1996. I am pretty sure you mean 2010. Before you run headlong into this reunification, let's see if you can make First Coast work first. Meanwhile, let's change "Gainseville" back to "North Florida" (Sunkist - formerly known as Perryz - is back and he's the reason Zack changed the name).
 * I haven't researched East Florida, though it looks okay in concept. A balkanized Florida, like a balkanized Texas, does not make sense. Therefore, once we have established "East Florida," we can work on pulling them together, but I think the capital should be in Gainesville (a split capital really isn't necessary). SouthWriter 02:04, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that a balkanized Texas does make sense, at least in the aftermath of Doomsday. The size of Texas, combined with the number of nuclear strikes on State, makes it likely that Texas would split.HAD 18:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that a balkanized Texas does make sense, at least in the aftermath of Doomsday. The size of Texas, combined with the number of nuclear strikes on State, makes it likely that Texas would split.HAD 18:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

The island-nation in the Mediterranian. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Could somebody please adopt this page and update it? Arstarpool 21:58, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'll do it.

Lordganon 10:17, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

A page on the former nation of Italy. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Please, can somebody make a map like they did with the China page? Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia (Rome)
A proposal for a small state in northwest Georgia that was part of the Muscle Shoals-based CSA. BrianD 04:34, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Alabama (Florence)
A proposal for a small state in north Alabama also part of the Muscle Shoals CSA. BrianD 04:34, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Mississippi (Corinth)
Another state that was part of the Muscle Shoals CSA, based in northeast Mississippi. BrianD 04:34, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Texas
A placeholder for the planned reunificiation of the various nation-states currently in former Texas, with an article that gives a brief overview of how the unification would happen, and potential political alliances, as of mid-August 2010. This is the article that Arstarpool started on his own initiative, but as it is dealing with articles I am the caretaker of, I have gone ahead and filled in the details. BrianD 20:24, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Emirate of Bukhara
An article by me. I would see it as a Siberian puppet, but I'm not sure. What do you think? Fedelede 17:09, August 16, 2010 (UTC) I like it, and Im glad to see you've returned to 1983DD, Fede. Arstarpool 05:12, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

2012 Summer Olympics
About the Olympics. VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Guyana Esequiba War
War mentioned at the Guyana Co-Operativa article

any objection to graduation ? VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why so soon, is there really no plans to expand on it? Mitro 02:24, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Caucasus Emirate
About crazy, Islamic state in the Caucasus, tiny but claims many lands that are not from them. VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * We need more ideas like these. Although it's not yet filled in I like it so far. Arstarpool 04:53, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * So Ven would you say this is a theocratic city state? --GOPZACK 16:26, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes. VENEZUELA 17:31, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Russian Democratic Confederacy
A Russian survivor nation located in European Russia.--Vladivostok 09:55, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

So, are there any serious objections to this article becoming canon?--Vladivostok 10:06, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is New Kiev? Mitro 18:47, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a Fictional Town. VENEZUELA 18:48, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Um...ok. But even a fictional town is rooted to one spot.  Where is it?  Mitro 19:01, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a few potential targets among the members of the Confederacy. Saransk has an air base near it and several factories. Cheboksary might be a target depending on the industry there. Rtishchevo also has an air base. Belgorod also has a reputation as an industrial center. Kurchatov has a nuclear power plant. Mitro 19:01, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * We did discus Saransk as a possible target, however the Air Base is a single air strip with no hangers or aircraft based there. Its factories are also not that large compared to other more important targets in the area. Rtishchevo's air base is also very small and looks to be a flight training center only. I cant speak for the other possible targetsVegas adict 19:42, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections other than the Potential targets in the list of states?Vegas adict 08:42, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

The air base at Rtishchevo is for training only, and a small civilian-type transport at that. Harmless, really.

You are right about Cheboksary, and that has been changed - when I was adjusting it for them I missed a heavy machinery plant there.

Belogrod is an industrial center of sorts, but it seems to mostly have to do with construction and agriculture, not heavy industry.

As for Kurchatov, It'd been agreed that the Soviets would not really have nuked nuclear plants in the USA, so I'd expect the reverse to be true here. Likely a cruise missile, at most.

I assigned locations (tentatively) for new Kiev and little Kazan as well, for them.

Lordganon 10:03, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is maddening about the Soviet Union with this TL is that we don't have a list of potential targets like the FEMA maps. If someone could find such a thing I would be eternally grateful.  Until then we just need to defer to the research of our editors.  I'm satisfied with the changes and your explanations, no objections here.  Mitro 14:01, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Duchy of Lancaster
An English survivour nation in the county of Lancashire. Just an introduction so far, I'll add more once I'm sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes.Tessitore 17:48, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I am glad to see another survivor community in Lancashire in my article it was originally thought Manchester was hit by 2 nukes but the nukes malfunctioned saving the city--Owen1983 23:07, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Owen, I believe that you've already been informed on a number of occassions that Manchester is toast in this timeline. Learn to take a hint will you. Tessitore 23:16, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Owen, Manchester is gone. G.O.N.E. H-Bombs tend to do that to cities. HAD 08:20, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

I plan it to be a sort of rump state comprised of the remnants of the US Military and initially the US's Atlantic territories until eventually it begins to deteriorate until it is comprised of two or three small islands in the present day. It will be kind of a mix between the APA and the CRUSA. Arstarpool 02:08, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I left my comments on the talk page. Mitro 04:18, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but was this article ever properly graduated? There is no record of it in the archives. Mitro 04:18, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually the more I read this article the less it makes sense to me. When I started editing it for grammar and spelling I tried to keep the part about the Crimean Tatars role in the government. But they were deported en masse to Central Asia and did not return until the time of Gorbachev. Mitro 04:40, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose I'm guilty of that, as I'm the one that originally proposed it be graduated as a stub. I think that was me, at any rate.

Figured I'd make it.... more realistic at some point, but never heard back from black. And the first thing he did when he came back was redo the parts I'd taken out because they were that way.

Lordganon 06:55, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed the parts about the Tatars. I don't think they would have anything to do with this country since there entire population would be in Central Asia. I am also wondering whether this country would be communist. Mitro 16:29, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduating this as a stub? Mitro 18:42, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

I recently noticed this article when you guys were adding categories, and I figured since it was already there, I'd revamp it into a article with a general Bulgarian overview. I'd meant to do one eventually anyway, and no time like the present!

Lordganon 23:35, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Food
I've started a page on this, since if there's a page on what people are drinking then there should really be one on what they're eating.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

International Health Organization
Page about WHO after Doomsday, based in Geneva.--Sunkist- 22:21, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Baron Hill
Page about Baron Hill's and political life after DD, and his role in Kentuckys Gov.--Sunkist- 22:21, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

San Marino
For some reason this page needs to be canonized again..--Sunkist- 22:21, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * This article is under review. See the talk page.  Mitro 18:44, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Genoa
Survivor State in Northwest Italy mentioned in a few articles.

Lordganon 07:03, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

PUSA Constitutional Convention and the "Decleration of Suceeding"
We need to talk about the above, guys. The second bit is the document that shows the the Conituaion Act is void and that the Consituion is back in force.--HAD 21:52, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Why are people ignoring this? This is important!HAD 21:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

HAD, would you link to the pertinent article(s)? I can't seem to find mention of it on the PUSA page. BrianD 00:52, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there is an article for it yet. Glad to see you've returned Brian :) --GOPZACK 01:13, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Zack, thanks. My return is not etched in stone. It all depends on how things go here in the short term. BrianD 20:26, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I forgot all about this. May need to backtrack a little. Mitro 13:04, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of PUSA, there seems to be some conflicts regarding the status of the Pasco Free State. The PFS article states that they joined the NAU (and I believe they are listed as members on the NAU article as well). Nevertheless, on the news page its mentioned that they were to have a vote on May 25th on whether or not to join PUSA, but there is no info on the outcome of the vote. I suggest a compromise: let the May 25th vote have 3 options (join PUSA, stay independent and join NAU, or keep the status quo). Let the May 25th vote outcome be to stay independent and join NAU. Thoughts? Mitro 13:52, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * The way I understood it is that Pasco (Which I am a joint caretaker of) voted to joint the NAU but left the door open to joining the USA (or the PUSA whatever it ends up calling itself.) I think we need to make that clearer then it was on the newsfeed or the respective pages in question. So I think Mitro they did indeed vote for your comprise plan. --GOPZACK 20:34, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * If there is no article, then HAD would you summarize the issue and your objections to it so we're all on the same page?BrianD 20:27, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have just had a look on the PUSA page. Apparantly, "On July 4, 2010, the leaders of the Torrington Constitutional Convention announced that it had been decided that the Provisional United States would declare itself the successor of the United States of America. All references to the nation being a provisional republic would be erased from the Constitution. " That is taken direct from the PUSA page. So I guess that A) Their is no issue any more. B)The PUSA needs to drop the P and C) The USA is back! HAD 08:13, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I added that, but South has raised some objections to it so it will likely be revised. Feel free to check out the PUSA talk page if you are interested in the outcome. Mitro 14:19, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who wants do the honours of putting on the main page that the PUSA is no longer Provisional, as well as updating all relevent articles and links and such and such?HAD 18:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the USA was my most recent project - before getting involved with the SNU-California debate - so I'll take on the revision of articles pertaining to that great country. I will move the article to "United States of America (1983: Doomsday)" this afternoon. I think all links will follow the move automatically. But if not, I'll fix it so that they do. All references in dated articles (historical references) will stay the same, so maybe changing sections that refer to the ongoing situation won't take long. SouthWriter 19:24, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, South. Your a good guy, you know? I bet you and me disagree on alot of things but your still are a good bloke. You've made me reconsider my views on the Southern United States thats for sure.HAD 19:58, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparantly, the hyperlink titles haven't updated. (See WCP). BTW, surely the fact that the USA has been reformed needs a WCRB news notice?HAD 19:56, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hyperlinks to "Provisional United States" should be redirected to "United States," for I have officially moved the one site to the other. I will insert the WCRB News article in line -- no need for the agent in Louisiana (aka Brian) to have missed all the news on that most historical of American days. SouthWriter 22:12, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, huh, what? :-) BrianD 00:03, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, Brian. Did I wake you? :-)
 * I think I remember right that you have the role as the WCRB rep in the south. I guess there is another rep closer to the USA, but I just naturally thought of you. But I think I got your location wrong. You're in Hattiesburg, right? SouthWriter 01:24, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Being WCRB rep is news to me! I did establish a guy named Brant McAlister (American expat living in Mexico) as the LoN's representative to the south. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes from. In TTL I likely got nuked. BrianD 01:45, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Brant is your alter ego. I thought that he was the WCRB man in the south. Sorry about your demise, man. So where were you on that fateful day? SouthWriter 03:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brant is not my alter ego. He's just a guy I created to serve as the LoN's representative to Louisiana, Texas, Hattiesburg, Blue Ridge, Piedmont, et al. I don't do role-playing on this wiki. Without giving away my personal business on the wiki, I would have been at home and gotten vaporized by the nuke that hit downtown and the nuke that hit the airport. BrianD 04:00, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, Brian. Did I wake you? :-)
 * I think I remember right that you have the role as the WCRB rep in the south. I guess there is another rep closer to the USA, but I just naturally thought of you. But I think I got your location wrong. You're in Hattiesburg, right? SouthWriter 01:24, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Being WCRB rep is news to me! I did establish a guy named Brant McAlister (American expat living in Mexico) as the LoN's representative to the south. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes from. In TTL I likely got nuked. BrianD 01:45, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Brant is your alter ego. I thought that he was the WCRB man in the south. Sorry about your demise, man. So where were you on that fateful day? SouthWriter 03:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brant is not my alter ego. He's just a guy I created to serve as the LoN's representative to Louisiana, Texas, Hattiesburg, Blue Ridge, Piedmont, et al. I don't do role-playing on this wiki. Without giving away my personal business on the wiki, I would have been at home and gotten vaporized by the nuke that hit downtown and the nuke that hit the airport. BrianD 04:00, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Brant is your alter ego. I thought that he was the WCRB man in the south. Sorry about your demise, man. So where were you on that fateful day? SouthWriter 03:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brant is not my alter ego. He's just a guy I created to serve as the LoN's representative to Louisiana, Texas, Hattiesburg, Blue Ridge, Piedmont, et al. I don't do role-playing on this wiki. Without giving away my personal business on the wiki, I would have been at home and gotten vaporized by the nuke that hit downtown and the nuke that hit the airport. BrianD 04:00, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brant is not my alter ego. He's just a guy I created to serve as the LoN's representative to Louisiana, Texas, Hattiesburg, Blue Ridge, Piedmont, et al. I don't do role-playing on this wiki. Without giving away my personal business on the wiki, I would have been at home and gotten vaporized by the nuke that hit downtown and the nuke that hit the airport. BrianD 04:00, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Brant is not my alter ego. He's just a guy I created to serve as the LoN's representative to Louisiana, Texas, Hattiesburg, Blue Ridge, Piedmont, et al. I don't do role-playing on this wiki. Without giving away my personal business on the wiki, I would have been at home and gotten vaporized by the nuke that hit downtown and the nuke that hit the airport. BrianD 04:00, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Future map
Due to size, this discussion has been moved to Talk:2010 WCRB report on the Future Geopolitical Outlook (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 15:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Space Operations in the SAC
The Space Operations article saids that the SAC launch their rockets in the Guiana Space Center, but why they couldn't use the Alcantara Launch Center in Brazil? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcantara_Launch_Center. VENEZUELA 21:55, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Construction started in 1982 so its possible Doomsday disrupted the planed launch center or scrapped it all together but it could be operational today. It would just come into operation later then in OTL --GOPZACK 05:16, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea with the launch center, it can be their commercial center, while the Guiana Space Center is under the juristiction of the LoNASO agency, as I have already started launching the GLONASS(GPS) satellites specifically from the ANZC, Guiana and the USSR.--Vladivostok 09:53, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Time for Cleaning WRCB Divisions
It's time to clean the WRCB divisions, some users like the one that have the Asia division has never create and article and has not enter the page like since 2008. It's time to eliminate this divisions because they are not controled. VENEZUELA 20:13, August 17, 2010 (UTC) THis are the changes I propose: VENEZUELA 20:27, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

WCRB Centroamerican Command - Mexíca Guinesscap = WRCB Mexican Command-Mexica Guinesscap

WCRB Asia Command - Bela Exvoxmachina = deleted

WCRB Rocky Mountains Expeditionary Division - Billings Loughery111 =deleted

Nobody should have the right to delete people's positions as it is there positions and not ours. Even if they did not create an article there are no requirements for a post that say you need to make a nation.


 * ...Yes they should, if they haven't contributed. Would you like it if someone was on your sports team but never did anything? Remember what the page says: "But It also serves us, the regular contributors, as a form of representation. The "WCRB" represents/acknowledges faithful and good contributors and assigns them an "identity" in between the organisation and also some special rights/functions." Fegaxeyl 11:22, August 23, 2010 (UTC)