Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Algorithms
Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 4]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 5]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 5]

1430 Coptic Revolt

 * Pre-War
 * Coptic Christians: 9.2
 * Population: 0.2 (100,000)
 * Motive: 6 (rebellion)
 * Government: 3 (warlord)
 * Caliphate: 17
 * Population: 8 (4 million)
 * Motive: 2 (rebellion)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Battle
 * Coptic Christains: 4.6 + bludner
 * Military: 0.6 (2,000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Caliphate: 7 + blunder
 * Military: 3 (10,000)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Results
 * Difference: 2.4
 * Coptics: 6.8 (casualties: 960)
 * Caliphate: 16 (casualties: 800)
 * Result: Caliphate wins 235%, putting down the revolt

Abbasid Invasion of Alwah (1432)

 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate: 19.6
 * Population: 7.6 (3,800,000)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Kingdom of Alwah: 12.5
 * Population: 1.5 (750,000) (just my guess)
 * Motive: 7 (existential historical land)
 * Government: 4 (oligarchy)
 * Battle of Dongola
 * Abbasids: 12.62 + bludner
 * Military: 9.12 (30,000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Alwah: 8.5 + blunder
 * Military: 4.5 (15,000)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Results
 * Difference: 4.12
 * Alwah: 8.38 (casualties: 12,000)
 * Caliphate: 16 (casualties: 4,000)
 * Result: Caliphate wins 221%, annexing Alwah

Totonacapan Unification War [1431]

 * Pre-War
 * Pro Unifacation Allies: (Mayapan, Totonacapan) 11,5
 * Population: 4,5 (Mayapan ~ 2.000.000 population, Totonacapan ~250.000 population)
 * Motive: 3 (War for a crown/Historical enemy)
 * Government: 4 (Council)
 * Cempoala: 9,8
 * Population: 0,8 (80.000)
 * Motive: 6 (Existential threat + Defending the Crown)
 * Government: 3 (Tribal)
 * Siege of Cempoala
 * Unificationists: 9,7 + blunder
 * Military: 5,7 (19.000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Cempoala: 4.45 + blunder
 * Military: 0.45 (1,500)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Results
 * Difference: 5.25
 * Cempoala: 4.55 (casualties: decimated)
 * Unificationists: 10,5 (casualties: 350)
 * Result: Unificationists wins 230%, Totonacapan annexes Cempoala

Discussion
Mods pls check this.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   02:12, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

Mogadishu Comoros War

 * 1431
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Mogadishu and Bahmanis
 * Result: 99.2
 * Population: +92.2[Mogadishu population ~ 1,100,000 Bahmanis-45 million]
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Attacking historic enemy (Swahili City States) +3
 * Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
 * Comoros
 * Result: 9.4
 * Population: 0.4 (200,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Existential Historic enemy +5
 * Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of  Comoros


 * Mogadishu and Bahmanids
 * Result:
 * Army Size: 40,000 = 12
 * Navy Size: 155 Ships (120 Mogadishu, 25 Bahmanis Ships)=4.65
 * Location: Near seat of government, along sea +4.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:  Naval -3
 * Comoros


 * Result:
 * Army Size: 4,000 Soldiers = 01.2
 * Navy Size: 24 Ships = 0.72
 * Location: Defending near seat of government +4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Mogadishu and Bahmanids
 * Comoros
 * Comoros

Discussion
Can someone please do the blunder? Fallacyman (talk)

Hindustan War [1432]
Bahmanids, Bengal, and Mogadishu vs. Delhi, Oman, and Garjat


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu (Attacking)
 * Result: +69.2
 * Population: +66.2 [Bahmanid Population ~32 million, Mogadishu Population ~1,100,000]
 * War Exhaustion: -1
 * Casus Belli: +1 [No connection]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Delhi, Oman, and Garjat (Defending)
 * Result: +147.2
 * Population: +130.2 [Delhi Population ~40 million, Bengal Population ~28 million, Oman Population ~600,000, Garjat Population ~1.5 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -1
 * Casus Belli: +5 [Non-existential, for historic lands]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Andhra (The Bahmanid army attempts to attack Bengal's army before it can link up with Delhi's)
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu (Attacking)
 * Result: +97.8
 * Army/Navy Size: +96.3 [Bahmanid Army= 200,000 men and 800 elephants+10% concentration, Mogadishan Army= 12,000 men]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Bengal (Defending)
 * Result: +80
 * Army/Navy Size: +81 [Bengali Army= 180,000 men and 900 elephants]
 * Location: +4 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 16.3)
 * Bahmanids, Bengal and Mogadishu: 13,200 men, 55 elephants (Bahmanid) 792 men (Mogadishan)
 * Bengal: 36,000 men, 180 elephants
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Someplace in the Indian Ocean
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu (Defending)
 * Result: -.8
 * Army/Navy Size: +4.4 [Bahmanid Army= 60 ships, Mogadishan Army= 80 ships+10% concentration]
 * Location: +0 [Far from coast]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Oman (Attacking)
 * Result: -2
 * Army/Navy Size: +3 [Omani Navy= 100 ships]
 * Location: +0 [Far from coast]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 1.4)
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu: 4 ships (Bahmanid) 6 ships (Mogadishan)
 * Oman: 20 ships
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Burhanpur
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu (Defending)
 * Result: +88.6
 * Army/Navy Size: +89.6 [Bahmanid Army= 186,800 men and 745 elephants+10% concentration, Mogadishan Army= 11,208 men]
 * Location: +4 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Delhi and Garjat (Attacking)
 * Result: +117.9
 * Army/Navy Size: +114.4 [Delhi Army= 260,000 men, 1,000 elephants, Garjat Army= 11,250 men and 100 elephants]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -0
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 29.3)
 * Bahmanids and Mogadishu: 37,360 men, 149 elephants (Bahmanid) 2,242 men (Mogadishan)
 * Delhi and Garjat: 17,160 men, 66 elephants (Delhi) 743 men, 7 elephants (Garjat)
 * Final Score:
 * Delhi score:129.5 Bahmanid score:39.9 Over 200% score difference.
 * Results: The Bahmanids surrender.

Abbassid-Yemen War

 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate: 18.6
 * Population: 7.6 (3,800,000)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * War Exauhstion: -1
 * Yemen: 12
 * Population: 2 (1 million) (just my guess)
 * Motive: 7 (existential historical land)
 * Government: 3 (Sultanate)
 * Battle of Sanaa
 * Abbasids: 12.3 + bludner
 * Military: 7.8 (26,000)
 * Location: 4.5 (capital)
 * Blunder:
 * Yemen: 12 + blunder
 * Military: 6 (20,000)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Results
 * Difference: 0.3
 * Cities Captured: 1
 * Yemen: 1.7 (casualties: 1,200)
 * Caliphate: 17.6 (casualties: 300)
 * Result: Caliphate wins 1000%, crushing Yemen

Abbassid invasion of Adal
Probably need to redo results as a result of blunder. 19:40, August 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate: 17.6
 * Population: 7.6 (3,800,000)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * War Exauhstion: -2
 * Adal Sultanate: 11
 * Population: 1 (500,000) (just my guess)
 * Motive: 7 (existential historical land)
 * Government: 3 (Sultanate)
 * Battle of Zeila
 * Abbasids: 6.5
 * Military: 7.8 (26,000)
 * Navy: 1.2 (40 ships)
 * Location: 4.5 (capital by sea)
 * Attrition: -3 (coast)
 * Blunder: -4 (Rexmod)
 * Adal: 6.13
 * Military: 3 (10,000)
 * Navy: 0.63 (21 ships)
 * Locaiton: 4.5 (capital by sea)
 * Blunder: -2 (Rexmod)
 * Results
 * Difference: 0.4
 * Cities Captured: 1
 * Adal: 10.6-10 = 0.6 (casualties: 700 men, 2 ships)
 * Caliphate: 16.6 (casualties: 1,400 men, 3 ships)
 * Result: Caliphate annexes Adal

Slight arithmetic error -Nate

Benin-Mali War (1435)

 * 1435
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Benin (Attacking)
 * Result: +50
 * Population: +40 (19,795,386)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +3
 * Government: +7
 * Mali (Defending)
 * Result: +50
 * Population: +40 (20,000,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +7
 * Government: +3
 * Battle Stage
 * Benin-Mali War
 * Benin (Attacking)
 * Result: +145.9
 * Army/Navy Size: +144.6 (395,908 troops/425 ships/+10% army concentration: +13.1)
 * Location: +4.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: 0
 * Mali (Defending)
 * Result: +32
 * Army/Navy Size: +30 (100,000 troops)
 * Location: +6
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: 0
 * Final Stage:
 * Benin
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Casualties: 90,000 troops dead
 * Result: 195.9
 * Mali
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Casualties: 30,000 troops dead
 * Result: 82
 * Overall Result: 238.9% in favor of Benin. Mali conquered and annexed by Benin.

Southern Front

 * 1437
 * Pre-War
 * Iroquois Confederacy Attacking
 * Result: +7.061
 * Population: 31,500/+0.061
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +3
 * Government: +4
 * Potawatomi Defending
 * Result: +6.004
 * Population: 6,000/+0.004
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli: +3
 * Government: +3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle for Grand River
 * Iroquois Confederacy Attacking
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,500
 * Location: Along the Grand River +1
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Potawatomi Defending
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,000
 * Location: Along the Grand River +1
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage
 * Iroquois Confederacy
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Potawatomi
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:

Saginew Bay Front

 * Battle Stage
 * Iroquois Attack
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,000
 * Location: Saginew Bay
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Potawatami Defense
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,000
 * Location: Saginew Bay
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage
 * Iroquois Confederacy
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Potawatami
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:

Western Front

 * Battle Stage
 * Winnebago Attack
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,500
 * Location: +2
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Potawatami Defense
 * Result:
 * Army: 1,000
 * Location: +2
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage
 * Winnepago
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Potawatami
 * Cities Occupied
 * Result:

Mogadishu Dar Es Saleem War

 * 1431
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Mogadishu
 * Result:  10.6
 * Population: +2.6[Mogadishu population ~ 1,300,000]
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Attacking historic enemy (Swahili City States) +3
 * Government: Absolute Sultanate +5
 * Dar Es Saleem
 * Result: 9.4
 * Population: +0.4 (200,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Existential Historic enemy +5
 * Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of  Comoros


 * Mogadishu
 * Result: 10.46
 * Army Size: 20,000 = 6
 * Navy Size: 120 Ships = 3.6*1.1=3.96
 * Location: Near seat of government, along sea +4.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition:  Naval -3
 * Dar Es Saleem


 * Result:3.34
 * Army Size: 4,000 Soldiers = 0.12
 * Navy Size:  24 Ships = 0.72
 * Location: Defending near seat of government +4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:  -2
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Mogadishu
 * Overwhelming Victory, Dar Es Saleem Annexed.
 * Dar Es Saleem

Discussion
Can someone please do the blunder? Fallacyman (talk)

War of Neapolitan Succession

 * 1437
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Naples/Milan/ Genoa /Bohemia/Hungary (Defending) Im out for now
 * Result: +47
 * Population: +36 (18,000,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +6 (existential defending the crown)
 * Government: +5 (despotic monarchy)
 * France + Castile + Burgundy (Attacking)
 * Result: +58
 * Population: +52 (16,000,000 for France, 5,000,000 for Castile, 5 million for Burgundy)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +3 (war for a crown)
 * Government: +3 (feudal monarchy)
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Turin (1437)
 * Milan (Defending)
 * Result: 50+5 (10% concentration bonus) = 55
 * Army Size: +48 (160,000; full Milanese Army)
 * Location: +4 (near a city)
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder: -2
 * France (Attacking)
 * Result: 38.5+3.9 (10% concentration bonus) = 42.4
 * Army Size: +42 (140,000; full French army, half of Castile, minus attrition)
 * Location: +3.5 (near a city)
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: -6 (crossing mountains)
 * Naval Battle of Elba (1438)
 * Burgundian led Fleet
 * Result: 31.9 (29+ 10% naval concentration)
 * Navy Size: 9 (300)
 * Location: 3 (coast)
 * Great Admiral: 20 (John de Luxembourg)
 * Attrition: -3
 * Blunder:
 * Neapolitan-Milanese-Genoese Fleet
 * Result: 28.58
 * Navy Size: 25.08 (836)
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great Admiral: 0
 * Attrition: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Final Stage:
 * Naples/Milan
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Result: 47 - 3.3 = 43.7
 * France
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Result: 47 - 12.6 - 18.68 = 15.72
 * Overall Result: Naples, Milan and allies win by over 200%.
 * 1438
 * Pre Battle Stage
 * Genoa: 7.4
 * Population:700,000 (1.4)
 * Casus Belli:+2+2=4
 * War Exhustion:0
 * Government:+2
 * Castile/Burgundy: 26.4
 * Population: 19.4 (about 5 million in each)
 * Casus Belli:2
 * War Exhust:
 * Government:+5
 * The Rape of Genoa
 * Genoa:9
 * Army: 20,000 Troops=6
 * Location:+6
 * Great Leader:No
 * Blunder:-3 (Sky did this)
 * Castile: 13
 * 35,000 Troops=10.5
 * Location:+4.5
 * Great Leader:Not Applicable
 * Attrtion:0
 * Blunder:-1 (Sky did this too)
 * Final Stage
 * Genoa:
 * 7.4-4=3.4-15=-11.6( Capital Occupied)
 * Castile-Burgundy
 * 26.4
 * Result: Genoa gets Rekt. Castile sacks the city and burns most of it to the ground, with the support of Burgundy as well.

Discussion

 * Can a mod redo and re-evaluate this algo (ex. It underestimates the French population, and doesn't include the Castilian and Lorrain populations). There are also other parts that need to be fixed. I request that a mod other than Rex does this so it isn't mod biased. Flippedlion.png NicDonalds  Lionsymbol.png 00:10, August 24, 2016 (UTC)

Issues with the algo Issues with the land war Algo. Issues with the naval Algo. I know that this took a long time to read but I hope you consider it and do what's best.
 * Plus, Italian population is inflated (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy); in 1500 the population of Italy was 11,000,000, and that was without wars between its people that caused them to become united under Rex. Flippedlion.png NicDonalds  Lionsymbol.png 00:13, August 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I made a mistake with the French population. It should be 15,000,000, according to  Castile has yet to declare war, and so had Lorraine (which is included in the overall French population, anyhow). According to another page on Wikipedia, the Italian population in 1300 was as high as 13 million, meaning it would be over 15 million in the 1430s. The wars that were fought were all relatively brief, and Italy did have its fair share of wars in OTL; in fact, times have been more peaceful in ATL than OTL, by any account. 00:27, August 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Things for an unbiased mod to change:
 * 1) I believe rex wants to send his full army
 * 2) Lorraine's army and pop. needs to be added, Scraw did mod response in chat
 * 3) Need to discuss with Edge, but can castile send more of their army.
 * 1) Attrition needs to be doubled for Castile as it crossed the Pyrenees mountains as well.
 * 2) France doesn't control all of France so therefore it's listed population should be lower. I also noted that Nic complained about Lorraine not being in the Algo, when Lorraine is also included in the total French population. Also speaking around 1/30 of the modern day French population is currently part of Italy, but because of the way demography is measured would be counted towards France.
 * 1) Naval concentration has never been counted In a single Algo that I have seen, and if it does Genoas forced concentration of naval should completely offset the Burgundian Algo.
 * 2) A great admiral is given by mod event, something that clearly hasn't happened for . Rather insignificant OTL and without a OTL equivalent he does not meet the great admiral requirements. Reading through IATGs turns I have discovered that Jean de Luxembourg has become a good admiral product of the Algo, not product of greatness.
 * 3) Naval size of Milan is also a issue. Milan is slatted at 336 ships which is implausible for a bathing of its naval power. After the war with Venice, Milan was able to capture the Venetian Arsenal, the fabled Venetian shipyard that could make a ship in a day. That, along with the fleet of Venice puts the fleet to at a minimum of around 300. Concerning other states that Milan has conquered such as the once great Pisa, Savoy, and Aquelia it should add at least a minimum 50 ships. Lastly the navy of Naples would be hovering at a minimum around 200. The Neapolitan navy was able to turn Naxos in the Aegean Sea into a client state despite the large Venetian presence in the region. During the Venetian war with the ability to capture the Ionian islanders as well as Durazzo would have prompted a naval expansion while Naples was NPC. The Ionian islanders also happened to have one of the Venetian arsenals, thus leading to a continued Naval expansion putting the size of the Neapolitan navy at 200.

-Guy
 * 1) Concentrations have always counted, if they're not, then it's an oversight on the part of the algo-maker. Milan is army concentrated, but you Oct have never chosen a concentration, so you don't get the bonus. Concentrations aren't assumed, you have to make the choice yourself.
 * 2) John de Luxembourg was made a great admiral by Nate, with MP and Sky as witnesses, he lead the Burgundian Navy to victory over Holland, Denmark, and Pomerania before he turned 21. He also devised the first line of battle with cannon-armed ships in history. In OTL, he didn't accomplish anything of note, but like Nate told you last night, that doesn't mean he can't rise to greatness in ATL, which is expertly what I've sponsored in him. Also, please point me to where the rule a great admiral or general has to have an OTL equivalent. I understand some people will give one, but equivalents will have less and less bearing as the game goes on.
 * 3) Milan has a maximum navy of 336 ships, according the rules. That is using the combined population of Milan and Naples as well. Milan isn't a merchant republic, so it's bound by the non-merchant republic rules. Yes, it probably did take a lot of ships from Venice, but as Milan is army concentrated, it would give maintenance and repair of these ships priority. So, due to the rules and Milan army concentration, it's navy is stuck at 336. And keep in mind that is the maximum amount allowed for its government and population, I know the mods have slashed navy sizes for army-concentrated states but I didn't do that myself.

As the mod who created concentractions, if you did not declare you did not get the bonus. Now Castile is fighting alongside French Troops, not invading seperatly, so they get one attrtion score. And pretty much every thing Guy has said. Response to IATG: More land algo complaints
 * 1) Firstly great Admiral has to be assigned through mod event, a chat "canon" doesn't cut it. Secondly your victory over the Pomeranian navy would have to deal with a algo victory not a "great admiral". For example if we allowed that I could assign a fictional person to fight and win every single naval battle simply won because I had more ships. A great admiral must also have a OTL equivalent which Jean de Luxembourg doesn't have. Lastly because of the absence of a mod event no users had a chance to protest the action.
 * 2) Secondly before the Spanish conquest in OTL Naples functioned like a trade Republic, colonizing Greece and establishing hegemonic power. Because of its conquests Naples would continue to function in such way, and perhaps expanding its navy. For example, the great Portuguese navy at its height would not qualify because it's a monarchy.
 * 3) One does not simply "loose ships", with the conquest of Venice Milan would've assumed total control over the navy of Venice numbering some 300+ ships, without being involved in any naval wars, those ships would still be present in the Milanese navy. The same applies to Pisa except on a smaller scale. With the production of one ship a day coming out the Venetian Arsenal and a stagnation of the operation being implausible so your argument is void.
 * 4) Also I forgot to mention the attrition loss of yours ships but you should loose 13.5 ships before the battle starts because of the percentage attrition.
 * 5) Lastly on the concentration it explicitly states that I can only have a naval concentration. I remember Edge stating that the concentrations aren't being used anymore except now he will deny this because it means destruction of his navy.
 * 1) If IATGs or my Naval algo concentration is counted, Rex would need his army concentration counted because France and Castile have naval concentration.

-Guy -Previously unsigned comment.
 * 1) You do realize John de Luxembourg has been recognized as a great admiral for twenty years now, by PMIV rules, it's considered canon. Second, it's been established mod events aren't the only way great admirals can be distributed. If you go to the mods and explain why a person of yours should be a great leader, they can agree like that. That's what happened when I went to Nate to ask about John de Luxembourg. He didn't immediately agree, but inter I explained further and he consulted the other mods, he agreed.
 * 2) milan is army concentrated, therefore, he doesn't have the ability to support a humongous navy. He decided to focus on his army, and like the concentration rules explained, his navy suffered. Without the funding that Venice threw into its navy, Milans navy won't reach the size, nor the production ability.
 * 3) You still needed to have posted that you're naval concentrated to get the bonus.
 * 4) France is army concentrated, you know.
 * 1) This was addressed on chat. His general has been confirmed as great by several mods. People had a chance to protest this action in the last algo he was labeled a great general. There is no argument here that actually makes sense.
 * 2) Naples is too large to function like a merchant republic. Look at the two most prominent trade republics, Genoa and Venice. Each had a population of under 1 million. Naples has at least 3 if not 4 million. But Naples by definition is not a trade republic because it isn't even a republic. We can't start making exceptions because a nation is "Like a trade republic" it either is or isn't a trade republic.
 * yes, Nations simply do lose ships. Naval ships require constant upkeep to maintain their seaworthy status. Given that Milan is an army concentrated nation, they logically wouldn't focus as much on the upkeep of these ships. But second, we can't cut the armies of nations that have a naval construction without cutting the navies of nations with army concentrations because than we create a system where nations with army concentrations are inherently better off and that means there is no cost to picking to an army concentration while the navy has the fault of cutting your army.
 * 1) Just because you can only have a naval concentration doesn't mean you can't not declare it. Everyone else had to. Hell we made Viva do it even though he wouldn't be approved for a naval concentration. But second, if we count the Army concentration of Milan, we must do the same for France.

I fixed some simple arithmetic errors in the Battle of Turin, and also used my whole army (as was intended). 00:00, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

I'm slightly skeptical with several things that are ongoing, namely the naval issue of Burgundy. That being said, I think it is therefore important to note that the entire armies of everyone involved should take place at Turin, which (I believe) should swing the number of troops in favor of the coalition.

In any case, we shall see how things turn out.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:01, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

The War of the Northern Lion (1418-1438)

 * 1418-1438 (1438)
 * Pre-War Stage
 * The Kingdom of England/The Kingdom of Denmark (Attacking)
 * Result: +14,4
 * Population:  +8,4 ( England 3.200.000, Denmark 600.000, Holstein 400.000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +3 (war for a crown)
 * Government: +3 (feudal monarchy)
 * The Kingdom of Scotland (Defending)
 * Result: +10
 * Population: +1 (500,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli:  +6 (existential defending the crown)
 * Government: +3 (feudal monarchy)
 * Siege of Edinburgh
 * War for Southern Scotland
 * The Kingdoms of England and Denmark (Attacking)
 * Result: +11
 * Army: +10 (24.000 (England), 9.500 (Denmark))
 * Location: +8 (Sieging a center of government/very well-fortified city)
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: - 6 (Mountains)
 * The Kingdom of Scotland (Defending)
 * Result: +10
 * Army: +1 (3.750 (Scotland))
 * Location: +12 (Very well-fortified city)
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: 0
 * Final Stage:
 * England/Denmark
 * Cities Occupied: ?
 * Result: +11
 * Scotland
 * Cities Occupied: England conquered Endinburgh, Scotland's capital
 * Result: +9-15= -6
 * Overall Result:1 800%  in favor of England and Denmark.

Discussion:
I would really appreciate some help with finishing this algo  SwankyJ   The Italian    Stallion   _ 09:01, August 24, 2016 (UTC)

Wait a second Denmark was distracted in various wars at that huge span this war covers. Also Great Generals must be delegated via event. If they were then this would be an awesome war. The first in PMIV with Great Generals on each side. Anyway there you go Swanky this is as far as i can help you with.              Ungern Von Sternberg   A Man's GREATEST Joy is Crushing his Enemies   10:12, August 24, 2016 (UTC)

Battle of the Strait of Luzon

 * Year 1438


 * Pre-War Stage


 * Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan, Ming China


 * Result: 224
 * Population: +215 (107.5 million)
 * War Exhaustion:0
 * Casus Belli: +6 (patriotic rebellion)
 * Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)
 * Empire of Japan
 * Empire of Japan


 * Result: 34
 * Population: +28 (14 million)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli:+2 (Non-existential, crushing a rebellion)
 * Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)

Result: 14.5-9.25= 5.25
 * Battle Stage
 *  Battle of the Strait of Luzon 
 * Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan, Ming China
 * Result: 14.5
 * Navy Size: +16.5 (500 ships, +10% naval concentration)
 * Location:+1 (Near the coast)
 * Great General:+ 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:-3
 * Japan
 * Result: 9.25
 * Army/Navy Size: 8.25 (250, +10% naval concentration)
 * Location: +1 (Near the Coast)
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: 0
 * Attrition:

Overall Result:224/28.75=779.13% in favor of Tondo. Naval superiority assumed

Battle of Maynila

 * Year 1438
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan, Ming China
 * Result: 224
 * Population: +215 (107.5 million)
 * War Exhaustion:0
 * Casus Belli: +6 (patriotic rebellion)
 * Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)


 * Empire of Japan (Attacking or Defending)

Result: 9.6-1.06= 8.54
 * Result: 34
 * Population: +28 (14 million)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli:+2 (Non-existential, crushing a rebellion)
 * Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of the Strait of Luzon
 * Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan
 * Result: 9.6
 * Army Size: +3.6 (12,000 soldiers)
 * Location:+6 (Near center of government)
 * Great General:+ 0
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:0
 * Japanese Garrison
 * Result: 1.06
 * Army Size: .56 (2000, lose 6% due to jungle)
 * Location: +4.5 (Near the center of government)
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: 0
 * Attrition:-4 (Jungle)

Overall Result: 224/25.46= 879.81% in favor of Tondo. Attempted Japanese attack on Maynila  rebuffed, and all Japanese forces in Luzon defeated,

Ragusan attack on Croatia

 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Ragusa
 * Result: 13.2
 * Population: 6.2
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government: 4
 * Croatia
 * Result: 9
 * Population: 2
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli: 4
 * Government: 3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Zadar
 * Ragusa
 * Result: 6.8
 * Army/Navy Size: 4.8
 * Location: 8 (capital)
 * Great General:
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: -3 (Coast)
 * Croatia
 * Result:13.51
 * Army/Navy Size: 2.25 + 1.26
 * Location: 12
 * Great General:
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition:
 * Battle of Zadar (Hungarian attempt)
 * Hungary
 * Result: 10.4375
 * Army/Navy Size: 2.4375 (army diminished due to mountain passing which I didn't include in algo)
 * Location: 8 (capital)
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Croatia
 * Result: 14.25
 * Army/Navy Size: 2.25
 * Location: 12
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 2.6775
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 9
 * Overall Result: 336.13%, Ragusa massively rekt, Croatia wins unconditionally.

Bahmanid invasion of Sindh [1437]
Bahmanids vs. Sindh

The Bahmanids are driven back, but soon return, and another naval action ensues. With the Sindhi Navy driven off, the Bahmanid army lands, and a battle ensues.
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +66
 * Population: +64 [Bahmanid Population ~32 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -3
 * Casus Belli: +2 [Trade War]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Sindh (Defending)
 * Result: +11.4
 * Population: +2.4 [Sindh Population ~1.2 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +6 [Existential, defending the crown]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa’]
 * Battle Stage
 * Naval action off Karachi (1st)
 * Bahmanids (Defending)
 * Result: -.8
 * Army/Navy Size: +1.7 [Bahmanid Navy= 55 ships]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Sindh (Attacking)
 * Result: +3.1
 * Army/Navy Size: +.6 [Sindhi Navy= 20 ships]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 3.9)
 * Bahmanids: 11 ships
 * Sindh: 2 ships
 * Battle Stage
 * Naval action off Karachi (2nd)
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: 3.7
 * Army/Navy Size: +1.2 [Bahmanid Navy= 41 ships]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Sindh (Defending)
 * Result: +2
 * Army/Navy Size: +.5 [Sindhi Navy= 18 ships]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 1.7)
 * Bahmanids: 3 ships
 * Sindh: 4 ships
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Karachi
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +34
 * Army/Navy Size: +39 [Bahmanid Army= 130,000 men]
 * Location: +3.5 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Sindh (Defending)
 * Result: +11.5
 * Army/Navy Size: +10.5 [Sindhi Army= 30,000 men and 50 elephants]
 * Location: +4 [City]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Casualties: (difference of 22.5)
 * Bahmanids: 8,580 men
 * Sindh: 6,000 men, 10 elephants
 * Final Score:
 * Bahmanids win with score of 62.9. Over 200% score difference.

Discussion
Sorry for posting this algo so late, but I was cut off from the internet for a while.The Guardian of Forever (talk) 04:12, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

Al-Najm's Persian Campaign

 * 1439
 * Pre-War
 * Abbasids + Ottomans: 35
 * Population: 24 (Abbasids 5 million, Ottomans 7 million)
 * Motive: 4 (reconquest of Abbasid lands)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * War exhaustion: 0
 * Persia: 53
 * Population: 48 (24 million)
 * Motive: 2 (non existential defending vassal)
 * Government: 3 (Sultanate)
 * War exhaustion: 0
 * Battle of Mosul
 * Abbasids + Ottomans: 81.5
 * Military: 33 (Abbasids 80,000, Ottomans 30,000)
 * Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
 * Great leader: 45 (MP approved)
 * Attrition: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Persia:
 * Military:
 * Location: 3.5
 * Blunder:
 * Battle of Tbilis
 * Abbasids + Ottomans: 24.5
 * Military: 21 (Abbasids: 20,000, Ottomans 50,000)
 * Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
 * Attrition: 0
 * Blunder:
 * Persia:
 * Military:
 * Location: 3.5
 * Blunder:

Discussion
Left Persian forces blank 'cause I know Persia needs to be judicious between both fronts -Nate

Croatian Attack on Ragusa

 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Ragusa
 * Result: 6.2
 * Population: 0.2
 * War Exhaustion:-1
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government: 4
 * Croatia
 * Result: 8
 * Population: 2
 * War Exhaustion:-1
 * Casus Belli: 4
 * Government: 4
 * Battle Stage
 * River battle
 * Ragusa
 * Result: 2.65
 * Army/Navy Size: 0.15
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:-2
 * Attrition:
 * Croatia
 * Result:7
 * Army/Navy Size: 2
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:-3
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 1.85
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 8
 * Overall Result: 432%, Ragusa massively rekt, Croatia wins unconditionally.

Current Map
1435



Changes to Current Map
'''Add additions, complaints, or changes under here. If your changes were removed, it's because they were added to the next version.'''

Leaves of Absence
If you plan on leaving the wiki for a while and will not be able post in the game for a while, please leave a message here telling us for how long you will be leaving and whether or not you have someone else you would like to play as your nation.

I will be leaving today (thursday) and will return on sunday. It will be very nice if someone does my turns for me. - Scarlet Outlaw

AM will be posting as Milan for the next week, as I will be out of town without my laptop or phone. Thank you, Andreas! 22:39, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

I'll be on holiday for 4-5 days, so I'll leave control of Pskov with Thewolvesden for the time being. EDIT: Seems my laptop is breaking down, battery dead and one of the two hinges is destroyed. Unknown when it will be fixed. Supergamer1 (talk) 13:10, July 24, 2016 (UTC)

I have to break off my Pacific Northwest trip due to a bronchitis. I need to fly back to Vienna and I need people to post for me and the guys I promised to post for, Rex and Super. AM, the King of the Banat (talk) 06:45, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

I could do that Andy, just tell me what should i post on chat.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:36, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

I am dealing with some issues IRL and the Past few days have told me that the likelyhood of me being able to post untill at least monday will be hampered significantly.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:48, August 5, 2016 (UTC) I will be gone canping from August 7-August 13, if someone could post as Denmark that would be grest. -KawaiiKame.

Due to my obvious over-involvement in the game (leading to some bad cases of bias), I am taking a week off from the game. Please, someone (probably Rimp, I trust him the most) leave me a message on my talk page if my nation is critically needed at any time -Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:24, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

As it stands today i found out some very bad medical news concerning one of my family memebers and i will be withdrawing from PMIV on these grounds. I will probably not be on as much but might still be around as i work on my TL and such. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Alright, THAT IS IT! I officially quit. I want nothing to do with PMIV and I much less want anything to do with any of the moderators involved and their rubbish. You know that? If you think I am arse, then you NOW made me one. For all I care, this game better be dead by the time I come back. And honestly, hopefully, I avoid this game like the plague and any subsequent games. Now, I am honestly done. D-O-N-E. Done! So, honestly, I can at best give you the mother of all insults if I could come up with one. Lousy wankers! Now, to the rest of you, I suggest you do the same. So, if anyone wants to boycott this game, feel free to. I know I will. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 03:24, August 14, 2016 (UTC)

I will not be able to post tomorrow. (Saturday) I already talked to LordMarlborough, and he will be posting for me.The Guardian of Forever (talk) 15:09, August 19, 2016 (UTC)

General Discussion
I just noticed the Roman Empire's post for this year and it seems the player is ignoring what happened when I was the Roman Empire.Such as the fact that in growing fear of Papism we cut funding the Catholic ones when earlier the Romans were reconciliating with the Catholics. Weird. --The Epic Dragon (talk) 17:43, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Still possible to join?
Hi. I missed the start of the game due to injuries (wasn't able to use my PC because of it), so just wanted to know if it was still possible to join the game. Zamarak500 (talk) 02:57, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

It is still possible to join the game! It's never too lae. -KawaiiKame

New Reference Maps?
Can we get some more reference maps, specifically for south america and central america? -Nova

I fully agree on this proposal. Also, on the reference map of India, there seems to be more states than on the signup list for South Asia, and no sign of Delhi? Could we have a more labeled version of that?The Guardian of Forever (talk) 02:57, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, reference maps of Central and South America are dearly needed. Cour *talk* 23:32, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

We need some reference maps over here. [North-Central-South America]   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   01:39, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Am I a Vassal?
Ok, can someone tell me if the Duchy of Athens (which I'm playing) is a vassal? Cause I got my post cancelled because I was said to be a vassal. However, when I read the list of nation, the Duchy of Athens is independent, although Athen is a vassal. I'm confuse, so if someone could help me on that, it would be great. Zamarak500 (talk) 07:11, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yes the Duchy of Athens is a Vassal of Genoa, the mods jus haven't updated the nation list so that is why Athens is still on there. -Oct

So Can I still play them or I need to chang esince they are vassals (and I fucked up when chosing my nation)? Zamarak500 (talk) 03:50, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Yes I listed some condtions on your tlak page.

Is The Roman Empire still a playable nation?
I was just wondering is the Byzantine Empire still playable and what is its curent state? I was just wondering as I have a deep love of all things Byzantine Related and when I saw it was open as a faction is such a popular map game I was a bit surprised if not a little suspicious. Thus I just wanted to check before I got my hopes up and posted as the Roman Empire in game. Thanks. The.Brick.Battle (talk) 01:36, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

No it is not. It got conquered by the Otties and then liberated by the Pope, you should talk to MP if you wanna play as his vassal. <span style="background:-webkit-gradient span style="background-color:black; border:4px ridge red; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;">  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: red; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Ungern von Sternberg   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: red; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   12:27, August 21, 2016 (UTC)

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.
 * Benin
 * While I understand West Africa had a history of ship building, I find in highly unlikely that, at this point in time, your nation would allow its Land Based power to take a back seat to Naval based power. ~Edge
 * Burgandy
 * Same situation as above, Burgundy doesn't have really any reason to focus on its navy. I understand Flanders gives you acess to the sea but by the same vein, the bulk of your nation is land locked. ~Edge

Discussion
The reason I made burgundy navy focused is because it's set a new focus on its maritime economy by way of the low country possessions, already wealthy trade cities on their own. It's been expanding its merchant fleet these past few years, and when there's a large merchant fleet, a sizable navy is needed to maintain its merchants safety. Since the income from the low country territories is quite substantial, safeguarding the sources of that income would be a reasonable course of action, hence, naval focus. I am that guy (talk)

Ok I will accept that response. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I decided on the naval focus given that Benin's army is the largest in West Africa and the nation has no major enemies on its borders to contend with. Given that the Oba has the last say on all military affairs, he can easily define the needs of the nation's defenses now that Oyo (Benin's only real enemy) is gone. Benin has jungles on both sides, two weak kingdoms to its north, and nothing but water to its south. As the Oba knows of the wider world around Benin, and does not trust Mali with trade with Morocco and North Africa, using the sea route Benin discovered would have been the most realistic choice for the nation, securing the trade needs of the empire. The army is strong, but not needed for the foreseeable future. Focusing on the sea is the only rational choice for Benin at this time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:55, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain where you got those ship designs from? I looked online for historical West African ships and found nothing of that size.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:50, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

There is a Nigerian forum which pulled together the research on traditional West African ship designs here. I based the designs of the Benin vessels off of that information, as well as the information that states such as Mali and Benin had sailing vessels for trade along the Niger River, while Mali itself had ships not unlike those in North Africa and Iberia. Given Mali used the Niger for trade with the south, Benin would no doubt have routinely witnessed these vessels firsthand coming down the river, and learned from their designs and operation. Further, an excerpt from the Journal of African History states that African war canoes were rather massive at 80 ft in length and 7-8 ft wide and typically had sails for navigation. Also, they had to be deep to carry 100+ men, their food, equipment, sleeping mats, and weapons so as to prevent capsizing ("...sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats." –Journal of African History). Such vessels like these here have been built for ages in West Africa (the latter image showing a traditional shipbuilder), and were typically equal to are larger than vessels such as the caravel, which itself was typically about 40-50 ft long. These vessels here were actually built for deep-water seafearing and are rather large in size, and their designs have not deviated from those of the past. Though these modern designs use motors, in the past sails would have been present on them. Thus, it would not have been to difficult based on the knowledge possessed at the time to increase the vessels in terms of size and depth, as the knowledge was fairly common for the West African kingdoms of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:30, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw those designs on the actual website that you mentioned earlier, but the main question I have is where you are getting the size. You mention yourself that these vessels could manage 100 or so men, but I question the notion that you are able to build ships with five times that number or the motivation to do so. If you could provide some sort of proof in those issues that would be good.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:57, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Can you add the Chimu Empire, and give us concentration on Army Building? -Nova

I've switched to army since it will be easier to get it passed and less controversial. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:30, July 31, 2016 (UTC)

I've added Mogadishu with naval focus, can some mod approve this? - Fallacyman (talk)

I added the Majapahit with a naval focus. Any moderators to approve? Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:16, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Can someone add the Wichita as army focused? -Da Kaiser (talk) 18:56, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

Mod Elections of 8/11/2016
Hi all. We have decided to have mod elections for a new moderator. Now the three canidates in question are Callum, Cour, and Nic, and they where decided from a list of 9 possible canidates selected by the mods.

To Vote, you need a google account. Either make one or use an existing one. If this is a problem reach out to me and we will talk. You will use this link.

The way voting works is simple. You rank the canidates based on your prefrence. Only ONE will be chosen as mod, so you need to rank them as your  first, second, or third choice. If you select two first choices, your vote will be thrown out. Every First choice gets a canidate three points, every second gets a canidate two points, and every third gets a canidate one point. This is to avoid a plurality.

Any questions approch me in chat or on my talk page. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL.

EDIT: We will use STV as it is more accurate. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

String of negative mod events
'''After the last couple of years of Benin's internal instability, lack of charismatic leadership, and crushing military defeat to the Songhai, the Kuzir religion begins to distabilize with 60% of the former empire converting to Islam (mostly under Songhai's control), a remaning 25% staying with the Kuzir religion (making a majority in the core of the empire), and the rest returning to the African traditional polytheism (mixed within the core and northern regions). Fearing the lack of popular support, the clerics among the regency council pressures the adolescent Oba to officially abolish the Kuzir religion and return to absolute rule, in hopes of restoring order.'''

Just make my game a "little difficult" as MP said, huh? Just admit, you are talking out of the bottom half of your body and making up excuses to make these negative events stick. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:22, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) "...Benin's internal instability..." Which you caused. You killed off the young, healthy Oba for no reason, and sparked an unrealistic rebellion during a regency over a 12-year old who wasn't old enough to rule as the source. The people would never rise up over a minor unfit to rule yet. Also, you have a group of people conquered by Songhai decide that the nation that improved their lives was worse than the nation that marched in and violently oppressed them.
 * 2) "...lack of charismatic leadership..." How are Prince Uwaifiokun (the man who opened Benin's view of the world), Okpara Maduka (the man who explored that world), and Mohammed Benken (a great military leader who saved Benin) not popular or charismatic leaders?
 * 3) "...crushing military defeat to the Songhai..." Songhai exploited a rebellion in Benin to declare independence, and was destroyed the following year. How as that a "crushing military defeat"?
 * 4) "Fearing the lack of popular support..." From the people who think God saved them from defeat by multiple enemies, and point to the three aforementioned men as saints for saving them?
 * 5) "...the clerics among the regency council pressure the adolescent Oba to officially abolish the Kuzir religion and return to absolute rule..." Why would the clergy want the religion that sustains them abolished? How did the 16-year old become Oba when he is not yet old enough to rule? What makes you think that Uwaifiokun would allow that when he and the warriors support the religion? Why would the people who see the Oba as the leader of their faith (in OTL and ATL) want him to destroy his own religion? And as a theocracy, the Oba is by default an absolute ruler, making the clergy's reasoning either ignorant or completely retarded.

Not a mod or anything, but to be fair, Viva has made some very good points - it would be very illogical for the Kuzir clergy to demand to the leader of the Kuzir faith to abolish the Kuzir religion. That's utter nonsense. However, it is plausible that several high-ranking people discontent with the ruling family could trigger a succession crisis over an heir too young to rule or to understand the implications of such a conflict. ~Tim

Exactly. Only thing is that those high-ranking naysayers were removed in the modded rebellion two years prior to this nonsense. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:22, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

That rebellion makes absolutely no sense. All of the afformentioned causes have been solved years ago, or just happen out of nowhere Erizium (talk) 10:59, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

All I can say is that Viva is being targeted through Mod Events a lot. Like.. a lot and there isn't even a genuine explanation behind it. Lets see

I can see some valid points in the above complaints. I definitely agree with Tim that the idea of the Kuzir clergy pressuring the Oba to abolish their own religion seems somewhat absurd (I always personally had an issue with the Kuzir religion just literally being made up one day and imposed on a whole state, but that's unrelated and canon anyway). So I think that bit at least needs to be removed. I can see how a religion created from scratch 15 years ago could quickly lose supporters, especially after the death of its charismatic founder and some internal instability. Now, as to the plausibility of past events, keeping in mind Rule 3, anything before 1428 (or 1429, I guess, depending on the construction of the phrase "two turns") should be deemed canonical. I can, however, see how this run of events looks like "targeting" or some such. I can also see how, what with the very fast pace of social change in Benin, some internal division would not be unwarranted. I would like to see the replies to the above complaints. Callumthered (talk) 13:05, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * On Turn 1427, the Mods killed off Viva's Oba for no reason at all, who was seemingly perfectly healthy as Viva has mentioned. The very same Mod Event then established a regency to control the state whilst Ministers and Generals fought to expand their influence at court. A reasonable Mod Event, excluding the shady sudden death of a young ruler.
 * On Turn 1428, officers and priest fearful for their life suddenly staged a revolt because they didn't like the regency and wanted the 12 year old controlling the state. This doesn't even make sense and it sounds almost as if whoever is writing these Events is adamant on destabilizing Vivas Empire by hook or by crook. The previous Mod Event established a regency and promoted infighting amongst nobles. Viva responded by empowering Prince Regent and stamping out on the disloyal nobles in order to restore stability which seems as a smart move. Somehow that resulted in priests and officers becoming fearful that the stability was a threat to them, and somehow this attracted the military and urban classes. Wow.. like .. wow. I wouldn't have complained if the Mod Event had stated something along the lines of "The nobles keen on restoring their influence in the regency council, hoping to remove XYZ Prince Regent stage a revolt" or anything even close to that. But no, the priests want the stable regency removed so that a 12 year old who doesn't have a clue how to govern starts to rule. Tell me, who exactly in Benin gains from a 12 year old ruling the nation? No one but the enemies of Benin and Kuzirism. If only the enemies of Benin benefit from it, why would the urban and military classes revolt? It doesnt add up
 * On Turn 1429, the rebellion turned from one that wanted a 12 year old to govern the state into one with religious and ethnic elements. Good thing the Events are making sense atleast, yet there is so much left out. Lets see, somehow a random local with the name of an otl future Emperor becomes Songhais ruler? What? So basically, all the other major families, religious leaders and military commanders in Songhai just decide to hand control to some most likely lowborn guy named Sonni Ali cause why not? What further makes little sense is that this Sonni Ali is suddenly a great politician and military strategist. Its almost as if they just wanted the rebels to have a +45 in the algo so they decided to magically make a random guy a Great General. Yet surprisingly, Viva isn't allowed to have a Great General and the one that Viva did have awhile ago was killed off prematurely.. I guess we now know why he was killed off so suddenly.
 * On Turn 1430, well Vivas already mentioned that year so I don't have to
 * What he said ^ -Bozistanball
 * I agree with Rimp, Viva recieved multiple events that made less sense year after year and they all were to dismantle Benin. 카와이카매] ([[User talk:|카와이카매talk) 22:04, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

Mod Event Complaint
''' Frustrated by the difficult terrain and slow travel for caravans heading to areas hit by the famine, many in Central Asia begin to seethe with discontent. This only intensifies as bands of riders begin attacking the food caravans, making off with their valuable contents before they can reach the major cities. '''

Now, I would just like to list a few points stating why the Mod Events make little sense.

-First of all, I would like to mention the 'Great Famine' I was given via Mod Event yesterday. The Event supposedly created a famine in Central Asia which stunted my population and threatened thousands of lives. This came as a surprise to me, especially when we consider that Central Asia has rarely ever been hit by a Great Famine throughout its history. Agricultural output has been sufficient to such a degree in Central Asia that the only otl Central Asian state to ever suffer a major famine was Kazakhistan, that too was because it was an artificial famine created by the Soviets. Moreover, when we consider the fact that almost all otl CAR states are agrarian in nature, it completely settles any question or debate in regards to the agricultural sufficiency of Central Asia. When we further consider that my nation controls the Fertile Crescent, the region known for being the most fertile and agriculturally important area in the Middle East; it clearly highlights the fact that my nation cannot be hit by a major famine because I obviously have the resources to feed my people. The reason I never raised the issue was because I assumed that the famine was perhaps similar to the ones European nations suffered every decade or so (which they aren't getting for some reason in PM4) so I decided not to outright criticize it. But after reading the very recent Mod Event, I've come to the conclusion that this is no more than a step by step process to promote unrest and discontent in my nation.. A plan who's very basis doesn't really make sense.

-Moving onto the 1431 Mod Event. I would first like to question what the Event means by "difficult terrain". Given that this Mod Event is centered in Central Asia, the logical conclusion is that it is referring to its terrain which has absolutely no major natural barrier of some sort that could obstruct transport. The area can easily be transvered through so I'm not sure where the difficult terrain part came into being. If the terrain was truly difficult to move through, it would never have served as the epicentre of the silk road. If anything, it would have been impossible for the Mongol armies to pass through this land to move South and West. Clearly, that isn't the case because there is nothing about the terrain that makes it impassable.

-The second part of the Mod Event speaks of slow travel for caravans heading towards area hit by the famine. Once again, this comes as a surprise to me as the area which has been supposedly hit by a famine was the same area that was full of routes that made up the Silk Road. If the area was truly so difficult to pass through, merchants would've utilized a sea route from the port city of Basra to India and onwards. They didn't because clearly, there is nothing wrong with the routes. When we further consider that I've been diverting funds towards developing the routes connecting the major cities of the Empire in order to promote the Compact of Iskenderun, for roughly 20 years now, it leads to further confusion as to how the caravans could supposedly not reach in time.

-Finally, something connected to my very first point. When we go through the list of major famines, the great majority lasted little more than a year. In fact, they ended within the same year. Yet somehow, Central Asia; a region that was never historically touched by major famines has somehow been hit by a famine in PM4.. and somehow the effects of that famine are now extending and stretching on and on. Hmm..?

The travel is slow because it needs to travel from areas such as inner Persia and Iraq to Central Asia. While it can be done, yes, that doesn't change the fact of the matter that it takes time to do so, especially when crossing the Persian mountain ranges. With trade goods like silk and porcelain, time is hardly important. When it comes to food, time is very important, especially to people who may be starving.

Secondly, I think it's important to point out that one, Kazakhstan was not the only place to suffer famine in Central Asia's history, nor were all of them a result of manmade issues. It should be pointed out that the famines in Kazakhstan that you mentioned, as well as the others that you did not, took place in the modern era, when advances such as irrigation should have helped mitigated the droughts that started them. Droughts can still happen, both now and then.

Thirdly, I find it interesting how everyone assumes that because they get one bad event, they are going to suffer major problems. That is not the case and people should know that there are examples of that, even as there are examples that prove otherwise. The point is, a single bad event or two should not be viewed as the disaster that it apparently seems to be viewed as.

Finally, if in the future you get another bad event that you believe to be implausible, by all means provide a feasible alternative that you believe is much more plausible. The mods cannot know every single aspect about every single nation, but as mentioned before, every nation will be smited from time to time. If you agree with that concept but disagree with the means, then provide an alternative.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:56, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

Going On Vacation
Since i will ot be here I would need someone to do my turns for me from Friday to Sunday. - Scarlet Outlaw

Mod Event Complaint
'''Angered at the draconian measures enacted during a time of crisis, many inhabitants of Central Asia begin to resent the continued occupation against raiders that no longer frequent the area. Some begin to grow angry at what they see as a Persian threat against their ways of life.'''

Now I don't want to criticize every single Mod Event that hits me but I would just raise some issues. First of all, I don't have a clue what draconian measures or which occupation this Mod Event is referring to. Not so long ago, Central Asia was hit by a famine and the people nearly died to famine due to raiders constantly attacking caravans carrying food. I responded by having the caravans armed, and ordered the Amirs of the Central Asian provinces to round up all those suspected of having engaged in attacks upon the caravans. I don't have the slightest clue why these people would sympathize for the raiders. As far as 'no longer frequent the area' is concerned, the people are still there. Raiders can't magically disappear and appear wherever they want. I'm going to assume that it means the raiders stopped raiding, which once again means that they're are still there.. they just aren't raiding anymore because it's not in their interests to attack the military. Like I said, I don't want to complain about every Mod Event and I decided to partially go ahead with this one by ordering the Amirs to no longer target suspected criminals which sounds like a dumb move but that is what this Mod Event is asking me to do... doesn't add up. Moving onto the second part, could you clarify what the Mod Event is referring to when it states "Persian threat against their ways of life" ? Which threat? Do they belong to completely different cultures which has resulted in a somewhat clash of civilizations? Not at all. Do they belong to completely different religious groups with one religion considering the traditions of the other religion as blasphemous? Not all all.. They're both Muslims. So I'm not sure what 'threat against their ways of life' means. Most importantly, when have I enforced Persian culture on the people in Central Asia? So I would really appreciate if this was clarified. Thanks

Now I complained against this event but never got a response. I didn't understand why but now I know the answer with the recent rebellions I got. It seems to me that the Mods couldn't even justify the uneasiness and discontent in my state because they knew they had no valid reason. Seems to me they chose to ignore my complaint so they could go ahead with the eventual revolt instead of properly explaining it.

'''Angered at continued rule by what they perceive to be Persian aristocrats and spoiled Turks, a general revolt breaks out in Central Asia. The appointed relatives of major cities like Samarkand and Bukhara are evicted or executed as they are seen as emissaries of the corrupt and foreign. The Gurkani Sultanate ultimately divides evenly in half by population, the western half (mostly in Iran) under Persia while the eastern half (mostly in Central Asia) under the newly formed Uzbek Sultanate.'''

Alright, so this is one of the worst Mod Events I have ever seen. Let's point out the very first thing about this Event.. The Mod Event created a revolt, executed all the Gurkani administrators appointed in those cities and then handed over the Event to me. Basically what the Event is telling me is that people decided to magically revolt for no reason, execute everyone whilst the Sultan and everyone else just kept watching. Lmao what? What Persian aristocrats is this Mod Event talking about? Each province has an Amir, Qazi and Dewan appointed from that respective province to represent their own people so I don't have a clue where the Persian part is from. When we further consider that a Majlis e Aam exists that consists of representatives from various tribes across the Sultanate to bring up any issue or problem directly with their Amirs or even the Sultan, it further makes little sense as to where the Persian aristocracy part comes from. As for spoiled Turks, what? There has not been a single mention of corruption in my nation, which while it may exists as it is natural, has never been extreme. This Mod Event literally has no valid casus belli for a revolt lmao. Basically, what the Mods are telling me is that the people woke up randomly angry one day, decided to kill all their rulers and declared themselves the Uzbek Sultanate. Why? No reason at all. Like, please explain to me how I am supposed to respond to this..? I doubt the Mods themselves have any clue what they would put in casus belli if they were asked to do the algorothm roght now. Finally, the Mods decided to just divide my nation evenly in half. As Viva mentioned, when has a nation ever magically split into two historically? The Events say it takes plave in Central Asia, and the successor state declares itself the Uzbek Sultanate but somehow the population is split into two. Now I know why the Mods did it.. They realize I have one of the largest armies so they decided to split my nation into two so that I won't be able to outnumber or even equal my opponents. Yet, they fail to consider that Persia abd the surrounding regions have always had a greater population than Central Asia. When we further consider that naming the rebel state 'the Uzbek Sultanate' gives the rebellion an ethnic element, we quickly come to the conclusion that other Turkic groups would never support the revolt. The Tajiks in particular are in fact culturally and linguistically Persian so that takes them out too. Are the Mods telling ne that a Pan-Uzbek rebellion somehow has 26 million people supporting it? That too ignoring how the revolt itself makes no sense and how the rebels somehow siezed major cities whilst the Sultan and the Imperial authorities 'silently watched'.

Meanwhile, the Jalayarid Sultanate declares its independence, and seeks the protection of its Arab brethren in the Caliphate against potential Persian invasions.

Once again, another classic case of Mods giving players rebellions but never bothering to read the playets turns even once. Remind me why there are Mods assigned for each specific region anyway if they aren't even going to read the turns of the nations in those regions..? So basically what the Moderators are telling me is that the Sultans niece, the Queen of the Jalayirids and her spouse (The Sultans son) decided to revolt against the Sultan. Why? No reason at all. Seems to me they woke up one morning as well and thought "Lets just revolt cause its funny LOL". Why exactly would they revolt against me? Have I persecuted them? No. Have I oppressed them? No. Have I promoted Persian or Turkic language/culture l in their territories? No. So why exactly are they revolting..? Lets look at it from a Mods perspective.

"Hey! We just gave Rimp a rebellion that split his population in two so he can't beat those rebels. But you know.. Rimp might find a way eventually.. I got an idea! We will give him two rebelliobs at the same time!"

That is honestly how I see it going. I honestly can't see how the Mods can justify this revolt. But thats just the first part. The Mods had to get Nathan involved in this revolt as well ofcourse as they needed to get a valid casus belli for Nathan to join in. So what do they do? They make the Jalayirids ask the Abbasids for help. What the Mod Event is bsically saying is that the Abbasids who have a historic claim on Iraq and particularly Baghdad are being asked for help against a nation that transformed the Jalayirids from a underdeveloped area constantly under Oghuz Turkic attacks to one that touched the Mediterranean and the Black Sea at the same time.. a nation whos navy was rapidly developed and for whom a massive trade network was developed to facilitate the spice trade. Why in the world would they ask the Abbasids for help? That too ignoring how the revolt has no valid casus belli in the first place. This makes as much sense as Finland asking the USSR to help invade Germany in WW2.

What does it have to be me though? Why didn't the Galicia magically (Jalayirids in this case) revolt when Edge got a Moroccon revolt? Why didn't the people of Grenada revolt for that matter? Why didn't the people of Tunis revolt after they freed thenselves from European rule only to be subjugated by Nathan? Why didn't Nathan get two revolts at the same time, perhaps a Tunisian revolt coinciding with his Coptic revolt? Why didn't he get a revolt when he drive thousands of Turks from his nation? I don't want to point fingers at other nations but all I am saying is that there are so many nations in this game, many players often performing implausible actions... yet it has to me getting these massive revolts simply because my nation is large and strong. Its almost as if there is a rule that states that if you become strong, you need to get a revolt but if I were to start pointing out how extremely implausible the nations of various Moderators were in the last major Map Game (PM3), they wouldn't be able to justify their actions other than a "Everyone else did it so why not me?". Its not about getting a revolt for me.. but if you want to give revolts, they should at the very least make sense. If there aren't any qualified Mods for specific regions in the Map Game, assign new ones. I would quite honestly prefer getting revolts from a Mod that knows what hes doing regardless of whether he borders me or not instead of a Mod whos only source of information is a 5mins skimming through the Wikipedia page.