Talk:Organisation of British Nations (1983: Doomsday)

OBN
In the last paragraph, are you saying that there is or isn't a chance of them becoming one nation? Louisiannan

Thanks for bringing that to my notice :) I've now edited the piece to make it a lot clearer. As the OBN currently consists of Woodbridge, Essex and East Britain myself and the creators of those two nations will put a whole lot more detail into the article over time Verence71 18:43, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

would it be possible for the Kingdom of Albion to have its southern boundary as the River Humber? as i think a major river would be an obvious boundary rather than just a line on a map.--Smoggy80 19:06, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

That's a question for East Britain to answer Verence71 19:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

i would like to ask for membership of OBN by Northumbria--Smoggy80 13:47, July 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * The King of Northumbria has made a royal proclamation that at the earliest possible time Northumbria will hopefully be accepted into the OBN--Smoggy80 15:26, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

would the OBN be willing to have a Fascist state as part of the OBN? don't you think other democratic members may have problems with that?--Smoggy80 13:47, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

What I think would happen is that Scotland could ask about joining but the other states would put it's membership on the back-burner until Scotland had adopted a fully democratic system Verence71 15:44, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Cleveland has held it's referendum and the results are that the voters have said yes to joining the OBN--Smoggy80 16:05, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

East Coast Mainline
Would it be posible to rebuild some BR lines to make a new east coast mainline linking hastings to Bourne and posibly up to cleveland or northumbria?Vegas adict 21:09, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

That's definitely an idea for the future. Verence71 22:21, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Cleveland is in the process of rebuilding railway lines (as well as engines) and are reusing lines as far north as Berwick (with hopes of linking up with Glasgow shortly) and as far south as the Sheffield/Bradford/Leeds wastelands.--Smoggy80 13:45, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Having had a look at a BR map from 1981 I suspect most of the lines needed would still be intact. The only major problem would be crossing the Thames and geting to Woolbridge or Bourne as there are no direct links to there by rail. Just something to think about, prehaps the FR (Southern Englands replacement for BR) could get to Sheerness or Whitstable the goods/pasangers be taken across and it could then be taken over by Essex?Vegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

How extensive is the FR?? Verence71 17:48, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

At the moment it only operates services within Southern Englands teritory but armoured trains have gone out into the rest of Sussex so the plan is still only an idea.Vegas adict 17:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Mention of armoured trains puts me in mind of the this Russian mini series The Last Armoured Train Verence71 18:39, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

A Royal Visit
I think we should invite King Andrew of New Britain round to the three core nations. Though part of the OBN's doctrine is to avoid excessive cultural distillation in the Celtic Alliance and New Britain, it can't hurt to invite the most famous Briton in the world back to his home country, and see some of the states that have rebuilt it. Basically, we would be showing the best bits of our nations to His Majesty - and also, due to the media coverage it would provide, it would act as an advert for voters in the Kingdom of Cleveland, who are due to hold a referendum on joining the OBN on October 22nd. This is the route I would propose: That's a proposal, and I'm sure you two can think of plenty more to include on the tour. But do we like the idea of a royal visit? Fegaxeyl 12:00, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * A possible visit to Southern England depending on how King Andrew chooses to travel (if he went in a boat, it would be a bit of a spiritual 'return to Britain', harking back to the Exodus).
 * Alighting in Southend, which Essex has mostly rebuilt from the ground up. He might also see the freighters we are rebuilding (indeed, if we transported him from Port Elizabeth to here in a freighter that would be saying a lot about our nations).
 * Travelling to Maldon, where Essex is constructing its two new airships. Ideally, one or both could be launched on the King's visit.
 * Following the River Chelmer into Chelmsford, to see the capital and make a speech of some sort.
 * A detour westwards to the site of the Battle of Takeley, which as we all know is where Essex defeated the TBA, showing our military strength.
 * A possible visit to Saffron Walden, though as this the site of a major defeat that might outweigh the sentiment from visiting.
 * Travelling to Haverhill, in the Codominion of West Suffolk, though only briefly.
 * A whistle-stop tour through the Codominions on our new rail line, into East Britain.
 * Stopping off at Ely to honour the graves of the Woodbridge troops near the city.
 * On towards Bourne, the capital, for another speech.
 * Possibly to the coast, and then along to King's Lynn.
 * Following the River Great Ouse southwards, passing into the Codominion of West Norfolk.
 * Into Woodbridge, possibly up to Lowestoft to see the launching of a new freighter.
 * Over to the airfields as a part of the nation's history, which is probably the only time we'll see the Stars and Stripes waving instead of the Union Flag on the entire tour.
 * Finally, into Woodbridge proper, to the capital of the OBN, to make one more, and by far the grandest speech, basically summing up how awesome our three nations are and hoping for closer trade links between the OBN and New Britain. Having the EAS Cavalier or some of Woodbridge's HC-130s flying over with confetti and suchlike, with a parade of the Royal Guardsmen and other soldiers, would be deeply gratifying and be a fitting climax to the showcasing of our nations' capabilities.
 * King Andrew then takes one of our freighters, or a New British one, back home.
 * It looks good to meVegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm all for the idea of a royal visit. No doubt King Andrew would have a sizeable contingent from the New British media with him who could take back news of the visit make the people of Britain aware of the existence of our nations. I have an idea for something else for the list. How a crossing of the Orwell Bridge?? Not sure where it would fit into the itineray though Verence71 17:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * That could happen on the way back from Woodbridge, though as it's after the climax of his visit it wouldn't hold as much significance. Fegaxeyl 18:01, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If Southern England is inducted into the OBN the King might visit Chichester cathedral which is due to be under control by the Federal Army by the end of the month and he could then go to Southend on the RNV Isle of Wight which is the Republican Navies flagship.Vegas adict 18:04, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore

I suppose while he is in Woodbridge King Andrew could:
 * Attend a football match between Woodbridge Town and an invitational XI from the the New British visitors
 * Attend or even address a meeting of the OBN's Council of Nations Verence71 18:34, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Something else that has just occured to me. While he's in West Norfolk, King Andrew could visit the old royal estate of Sandringham. Verence71 19:36, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Something has just occured to me too. Although probably not an 'offical' part of the visit and certainly not part of the tour, he could pay a visit to Cleveland, or more accurately it's royal family. As I've already said though, this wouldn't be part of the tour, just him taking the opportunity to visit family while 'in the area'.Tessitore 00:22, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly. The tour's hidden aim is to show off the OBN not just to the world, but also to Cleveland voters for the October 22nd referendum. King Andrew could always make a visit to Cleveland, which would be as much about visiting the family as it would be about carrying the message across to Cleveland - not that the OBN possesses the authority to make him do so. Fegaxeyl 10:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Do we have a proposed date for the trip yet?? I only ask cos if it's in October it might clash with the Europa Games that Woodbridge is thinking of taking part in. It wouldn't look good if PM Robson was not in Woodbridge to greet King Andrew but it might also be deemed to be a bit "off" if he didn't attend the EG opening ceremony. Verence71 15:48, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Assuming he does one or two thinks on our itinerary a day then we're looking about half a month to complete. Perhaps the later half of September could suffice, say from 14th-30th? If King Andrew makes his speech on the 29th that would leave the next day for him to cross the Orwell Bridge and board the ship that'll take him home (or to Cleveland for his quick visit, which would probably take a day or three to complete). That would leave just enough time for PM Robson to take a break then head off to the opening ceremony. Fegaxeyl 16:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Great :) Verence71 19:16, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Given that the visit begins on Tuesday, are there any final changes we wish to make? Fegaxeyl 12:22, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it's possible that there might be protests about the visit along the lines of having a go at Andy for doing a runner post-Doomsday Verence71 16:05, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, personally I don't think that'd be the sort of thing that'll lead to protests. Cat calls, smart arsed comments in the media and general mickey taking on the other hand... (for some reason, I can't help but imagine that New Britain is the butt of a fair few jokes in the British survivor states).Tessitore 23:34, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there any chance of Andrew spending some time in Cleveland? Queen Anne II is his only surviving sibling, plus he has two new Grandnephews to meet. It would be strange to travel all this far and not meet any of his surviving family? --Smoggy80 15:17, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Any ideas for his transportation up to Cleveland? Fegaxeyl 18:59, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that Andy is ending up in Woodbridge perhaps the New British ship that brought him to Southern England could dock in Lowestoft harbour and then take him up the coast to Cleveland?? Verence71 19:27, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought that was staying docked in Southern England, or going as far as Southend. Perhaps one of our freighters could take him there - rather than visiting Lowestoft before Woodbridge, he could do it the other way round, and then take the ship up to Cleveland, stay for a few days, then come back, up the Deben, travel across Orwell Bridge, back to Southend and finally home. Fegaxeyl 20:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's an idea and it would also show off to the world that we are not just agricultural societies, that we do have some industry Verence71 08:28, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Again theres still the RNV Isle of Wight, it might make up for the fact that he hasn't spent much time in Southern EnglandVegas adict 18:25, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would recommend that he lands in either Whitby harbour (if in a small boat) or Hartlepool (if in a bigger ship) then he could take the train to Middlesbrough (whilst taking in some of the sights of the Cleveish countryside and industry) to meet Queen Anne--Smoggy80 17:49, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

Southern England
As you may have guessed the Liberal party won the Southern England elections which means that they will apply to join the OBN. Do any of the original three OBN creators have a problem with this?Vegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't. When do you intend to hold the referendum for joining? Fegaxeyl 15:31, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as the Liberals made it one of thier election pledges to join the OBN and they were elected into power i'm not sure that they'd consider one necisary. If the OBN insisted however it would probabley be around the end of AugustVegas adict 15:41, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

The founding members created the OBN after the population spoke up, but as it was initially an idea thought up by the Essex government so that probably wouldn't count as a referendum. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Southern England part of the OBN by the end of the month - in which case, you might want to propose some sights for King Andrew to see in your nation in the section above. Fegaxeyl 15:51, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

OBN new flag
What with the possible admittance of three new states (Northumbria, Cleveland, Southern England) I have made this new flag. Basically, its got one star for each state in the OBN and it shows in gold the actual area of the OBN. Bob 11:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nice, though the territories of Southern England aren't shown. You'll have to consult with Vegas Adict over what exactly these territories are, because I believe he was invading Sussex... Fegaxeyl 11:51, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me Verence71 19:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

This will need another version with Lancaster and Rheged, assuming they eventually join. Fegaxeyl 10:30, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the symbol of brittannia, personification of the island. From the 50p coins.193.61.234.13 22:06, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Europa Games
The people in charge of this article have said they would be more than happy to have the nations of the OBN compete. They made the suggestion that we travel to the games together but compete as seperate nations. I was thinking possibly that we could all travel to the games on one of the converted boats we got from the Nordic Union Verence71 14:22, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

There's always the EAS Cavalier. Given that it was bought from Prussia and it would be flying the athletes there... Fegaxeyl 17:44, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Theres also the RNV Isle of Wight, giant hovercraft have quite an impresive impactVegas adict 18:38, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

What would be the passenger capacity of those vehicles?? Verence71 18:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

OTL crew of the Graf Zeppelin was 40, passengers 20, though with modern innovations from Germany this could probably be about a crew of 25, passengers 50 or so. But because it can fly it is more practical - and the RNV Isle of Wight would probably be, with all due respect, useless if the Atlantic was choppy (and it has far longer to go - across the North Sea, past Denmark, whereas the EAS Cavalier can just cut across the Low Countries and North Germany) As the scheduled royal visit leaves little time between its end and the opening ceremony the faster option would be better, though the bulk of attending teams could travel via hovercraft. Fegaxeyl 18:55, August 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hang on Fegaxeyl, the SR.N4 MKII (The model that the RNV Isle of Wight is) can operate in seas up to 11 ft 6 in (3.5 m) high and with 57.5-mile-per-hour (92.5 km/h) winds. It has a top speed of eighty three knots and original had a capacity of 245 passengers however i suspect the conversion to a military vessel will have cut the speed to seventy and the passengers to 170.Vegas adict 19:38, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

How about this?? Send most of the teams in the Isle of Wight and one of the converted freighters weeks before the start of the games so they can get in some training in Prussia before the games and then have dignitaries from the three nations fly over in EAS Cavalier nearer the time Verence71 19:03, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

The only countries attending for now to Europa Games are from the balkans, the Caucasus, prussia, and woodbrudge so please the country who is attending please write the name here: VENEZUELA 19:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Essex (though I'm not very good on sports, help would be needed)
 * 2) Southern England

Chairman
Unless anyone has better ideas, I'm going to put Simon Burns (current MP for Chelmsford) as the OBN's chairman. He'll be the one welcoming Southern England to the Organisation. Fegaxeyl 12:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

How about Bob Russell?? Verence71 19:20, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose he would do too, though the OBN's Britishness probably means that it would appeal to more conservative politicians - Simon Burns, or even OTL East Anglian UKIP members. Fegaxeyl 18:58, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

If it's Tories you're looking for how about Alan Haselhurst who at the time of Doomsday would have been MP for Saffron Walden for 4 years?? Verence71 19:44, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Russell (if I'm reading his bio right) would have been killed on Doomsday from the Colchester nuke. Haselhurst, assuming he survived, would be a viable candidate, but with his background in Saffron Walden he may have retired following the War to deal with rebuilding the town. That would leave Burns as the current Chairman. Fegaxeyl 16:03, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, Burns it is then. How about if Chairman of the OBN is a rotating post with each nation taking it in turns to have one of their citizens as Chairman?? Verence71 18:44, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of shropshire
is it OK for Kingdom of Shropshire to be a member of the OBN--Owen1983 13:20, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It should probably wait until the article is graduated. Mitro 14:05, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

As Owens been banned, again, and Shropshire's page been marked obsolete does anyone have a problem with me starting a page based around Staffordshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire?--Smoggy80 18:16, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Application for links with OBN
Due to the application of Northumbria, and the expected referendum in Cleveland to be positive toward a membership application of the OBN, The Rheged Co-Operative would like to set up links with the OBN with the hopes of a membership application in the near future.

I don't see an issue with this, though I thought the co-operative didn't see itself as a nation, so that could make representation somewhat more difficult... At this rate, the OBN might be comprised of every British (or certainly every English) state by the end of 2010, possibly mid-2011. Fegaxeyl 20:06, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that Lancaster is going to be holding a referendum on the matter as soon as the article graduates you're probably right about that. I did briefly consider having Lancaster as the 'British Switzerland' ie completely neutral, but it didn't fit or make much sense. For one thing the trade advantages alone would be worth it and for another, while they and the CA are getting on fine at the moment, it never hurts to have backup when you've got a much bigger and more powerful neighbor, particuarly since the area between Lancaster's southern border and the Mersey is going to become an issue in the future. Also they wouldn't want Cleveland to think they've gone one better then them. *grin* I don't think all the English states will be joining though, although the one that definitely won't (Matlock) is probably going to get ganged up on eventully.Tessitore 22:02, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that we could soon have 8 member states (Woodbridge, Essex, East Britain, Cleveland, Northumbria, Southern England, Lancaster and Rheged) it would make sense to increase the size of the Council of Nations from it's current 5 representatives per nation to something like 10. In that event perhaps each of Rheged's representatives could come from a seperate town in the Co-Operative. Verence71 19:52, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Matlock isn't really a real nation, just a tiny little city state. Basically an independent version of the towns of Rheged. There are doubtless dozens, possibly hundreds more like it scattered across the former UK. Fegaxeyl 20:00, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Matlock isn't really a real nation, just a tiny little city state. Basically an independent version of the towns of Rheged. There are doubtless dozens, possibly hundreds more like it scattered across the former UK. Fegaxeyl 20:00, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Scottish New State has made a number of reforms in an attempt to make themselves more desirable for membership. This is probably just because it wants some support before the planned takeover of the remaining areas of Scotland. Bob 17:53, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, depending on how relations with the Celtic Alliance go, the OBN might simply want an ally in the form of Scotland, rather than bothering about their exact politics. Though it's likely they'd try to ensure that Scotland is a stable democratic state, post-Doomsday (even 27 years hence) you'd want as many allies, and as many resources, as possible, even if they happen to be racial supremacists and authoritarian. In World War Two the Allies had Brazil, which was a pretty fascistic state and even had a derivation of Nazi philosophy that was fairly popular. Fegaxeyl 19:00, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

just to let everyone know
i don't know if you are all aware of the page Owen has set up Provincial United Kingdom (1983: Doomsday) i don't know what you want to do with it? i can think of a few things!--Smoggy80 18:00, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ther Provincial UK respects the sovereignty of British survivor nations --Owen1983 18:49, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop treating this like an RPG Owen. Your article is a proposal, it is not canon yet. Mitro 18:52, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Map
Do you think the map should show all lands claimed? i was thinking that areas that were nuked and still unihabitable but claimed should be coloured for respective countries for example Brigton area isn't included in the Southern England map but is part of Southern England? and the area around Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield wasteland in South Yorkshire is a claimed part of Cleveland even though its non habitable but it's not shown on the map. it might show borders between nations a bit better? just an idea.--Smoggy80 10:36, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

That's possible, but you'd have to draw the line somewhere or it would be extremely difficult to put in all the 1kt bombs. And besides, uninhabitable could be somewhat subjective - theoretically anyone could live there, just not for very long without endangering their health. I think it's a good idea, but for maximum effect we may need a bigger map. Fegaxeyl 16:14, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Definatly ignore the tactical nukes as they would be inhabitable by now (the radiation would be well and truly gone by now) even the 100KT/200KT blast areas would be relativly safe (apart from say half a mile around the detonation zone) which would be too small to show on the map anyway. Only areas with a total yield of 1MT or more would be unihabitable for a long while.

I'm only saying this because I've currently got someone trying to set up a nation in the little white area between Northumbria and Cleveland called the Gateshead Republic--Smoggy80 17:03, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

OBN-New Britain links
In the aftermath of the royal visit, how do we feel about intensifying trade links with New Britain? Or would this compromise the OBN's position of resisting foreign influence? In my opinion this anti-foreign stance is slowly becoming exclusively 'anti-Celtic' - we've participated in the wider European community, Woodbridge was considering joining the ADC, and, of course, there's the visit itself. If we will increase cooperation between the Exodus State and the Homeland (hmm... new terms there?) then I would suggest this little idea I had of mine - a colony established somewhere on the African or Spanish coastline to act as a midway point for trade between the two nations. A New Gibraltar, if you would. Also, we may see some OBNers in the British Antarctic Territory... but I'm just blue-sky thinking now. What are our opinions? Fegaxeyl 16:14, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

As is happens there is already an English colony, Avalon, off the coast of the African state of Guinea-Bissau which would serve the purpose. Greater trade links would be a good idea but I would be concerned if that also led onto greater political links. I would imagine that none of the OBN member states wouldn't want to end up as a colony of New Britain so to speak Verence71 19:55, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Why doesn't the OBN establish an African Trading Company, build trading posts along the coast of Africa and establish closer trading links with our New British cousins. Bob 09:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of states along the West African coast so there would have to be some sort of agreement with them Verence71 17:15, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

So long as they stay as trading posts, surely there is benefit for all? We will benefit from the wealth of West Africa and they will benefit from trade links across the African continent. Bob 17:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

That could certainly work Verence71 15:34, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I had the additional thought that having multiple trade links spanning numerous latitudes would give everyone involved a fairly diverse range of produce. Not the sort of variety we have today, but certainly an improvement. Even something as small as apples - rather than being seasonal, we would see large exports of the fruit going north, and then south, each year, keeping all nations involved constantly supplied. That would be quite a big thing in the post-Doomsday world. And by establishing companies associated with any trading posts in OTL Ivory Coast and Ghana, we could even resume production of chocolate.

Assuming we have enough willing colonists and the cooperation of the West African Union, this scheme would be feasible to establish. Are we willing to submit this idea as a page? Fegaxeyl 17:08, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, though British nations will probably become economically reliant on West Africa. Bob 17:25, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Dang, that's a good point. How can we balance better trade opportunities with economic independence? Fegaxeyl 18:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC) EDIT: Then again, how major an issue would that be in the post-DD world? Fegaxeyl 20:35, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

You'd be suprised. It might be just me but I kind of get the impression that the years of having to get by on their own has resulted in the survivour states developing stubborn streaks to one degree or another. On a related note, how many ports would still be operational in the various OBN nations? Would it be feasible for the OBN nations to act as a sort of hub for international trade, particuarly if they manage to develop a decently sized merchant fleet? Admittedly this is just an extension of some of my musings about Lancaster (it's got a rather large number of ports in relation to it's size so I've been trying to figure out what to do with them) but it might still have potential. Also, never mind chocolate, what about tea? They do grow the stuff in Africa after all.Tessitore 20:21, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Woodbridge has a fair-sized (by post Doomsday Britain standards) port at Lowestoft. It's also a garrison town and serves as headquarters of the Woodbridge Navy (such as it is) Verence71 00:08, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Lancaster's got three that are currently in use, namely Fleetwood, Heysham, and Glasson Dock, all of which are quite large, plus the docks at Preston which have been disused since the town was mostly abandoned. As I said, it has a lot of ports for it's size (by the by, I'm still not sure what to do with them but it seems a shame to let them go to waste, so if anyone has any suggestions, let me know on my talk page). Tessitore 13:48, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have Southern England's ports as regional/international ports and shipyards, lancasters could be used for a similar purpose. If we are looking for an international hub for trade though i would sugest the port of Cowes in Southern England, it is allready used by the trade vessels from the CA and Prussia that dock their and also has large maintance facilities to repair ships that have become damaged. In addition its posistion on the south coast means that it would be easier for ships to dock their and thier cargo could then be stored and transfered to ships going to other OBN statesVegas adict 22:20, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, VA. Perhaps it would serve as a 'hub' for transportation to other British nations - so trans-Atlantic freighters from West Africa or New Britain stop, swap supplies with smaller, coastal trade vessels from Lancaster, the OBN Core States, and Cleveland-Northumbria, and then return, whilst the little ships spread out to their destinations. Fegaxeyl 23:00, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

Northumbria/Cleveland OBN inclusion date
Any idea what the date will be for the inclusion of Northumbria and Cleveland into the OBN, just i'd like to add it to the pages.--Smoggy80 18:54, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking either the 7th or 14th. Fegaxeyl 22:56, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

November or December?--Smoggy80 11:36, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

November. Fegaxeyl 13:46, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

A textbook error
Flicking through a textbook, I found a part which said that the UK had a system of dealing with nuked cities - the military would surround the area and prevent people from leaving. Though it sounds vaguely plausible, I'm sceptical, partly because it sounds incredibly difficult to do and the textbook also called Mutually Assured Destruction a 'doctrine'. Do any of you have any knowledge whether or not this is true? Fegaxeyl 17:14, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about the book but the only problem with that idea is that the military would've been hard hit well before any cities were hit (military targets would have had preference over populated areas in any war, even a nuclear war - mainly to stop retaliation). So it would be unlikely that any surviving military would be around to guard the nuked cities.

Also, in all likelyhood any 'theory' in a textbook or even a major pre-exisiting military order would've gone out the window when the first bombs began detonating. --Smoggy80 14:47, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

North Sea oil reserves
I've been thinking about Cleveland starting to build some oil rigs to try and tap any oil reserves that exist still under the North Sea (i'm vaugely aware of reading somewhere they got nuked on DD), i was wondering if the oil pipelines could come ashore in Lincolnshire or somewhere along the Norfolk coastline, anyone got any ideas where?--Smoggy80 17:56, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.npd.no/Global/Engelsk/3%20-%20Publications/Reports/OneNorthSea/Fig-11.jpg

This map shows the pipelines currently in place under the North Sea. One of the oil lines seems to end up north of the Humber, which I believe is Cleveish territory. However, it seems the majority of gas pipelines are scattered around Norfolk, giving East Britain and Woodbridge a nice cut at its distribution and supply.

Does anyone mind telling me what gas and oil are helpful for? Some obvious examples come to mind, but does anyone mind elaborating on their uses? Fegaxeyl 18:14, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well the obvious diesel and petrol for military and agricultural uses, as well petrolium products such as tarmac for roads, plastics manufacture and inorganic fertilizers.

i was thinking of bringing an oil and gas line into Cleveland, but the southern oil fields could supply southern OBN nations--Smoggy80 18:24, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lancaster's Application to Join
A referendum has been held and the results were in favour of joining, partly because Lancaster seems to have a habit of copying Cleveland, but largely for the economic advantages and because Lancaster shares a border with the CA and while things are civil at the moment, it never hurts to have some back-up when you've got a much stronger next-door neighbour. Tessitore 20:48, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I vote we retcon in their admission to coincide with Cleveland and Northumbria's admission. Provided Mumby can provide an updated, 7-star flag - out of his infinite kindness and charity :D - then I would be happy to sort out the situation. Fegaxeyl 20:53, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Would that really work, given that Lancaster applied some time after Cleveland and Northumbria (the referendum was on 3rd November, so the application wouldn't have be sent off until about the 5th)? Tessitore 21:11, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Their applications both turned up around the 1st or 3rd, so it wouldn't be impractical for the Lancastrian application to be seen as part of the same package. Fegaxeyl 21:20, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Immigration
Okay, as we all know, the various British survivour nations are underpopulated and suffering from labour shortages to one degree or another. The fastest way to fix this is of course immigration from countries outside the British Isles and with this in mind I was wondering if the OBN would be inclined to give things a bit of encouragement, and if so, how best to go about it, not to mention which countries would be best to attract immigrates from. Personally I think Italy would be a good bet, since given the situation there I can imagine that there'd be plenty of people who'd jump at the chance of a quiet life well away from Sicily, but on the other hand their population is pretty low as well. Any thoughts?Tessitore 21:00, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

There's only one problem with immigrants, yes they fill the empty jobs, however if there is a bad harvest they also eat the food that would've gone to locals.

I can't imagine many nations wanting to take the risk of increasing their populations too quickly at the moment, most having only just got their farming systems up and running fairly efficently and what with most of the food production systems being back at 18th centuary levels with very little mechinisation. maybe in a few more years once counties have a food surplus?--Smoggy80 16:39, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

If we think about it, the trade with nations such as the West African Union or other nations in Africa such as those within the African Economic Community, there will undoubtedly be immigration from Africa especially considering the unstable nature of the continent and the fact that populations wouldn't be hugely different from now so they may well be suffering from unemplyment where ours suffer from labour shortages. Ans East Briatin is certainly encouraging population growth as it aims to take control over the entire county of Lincolnshire. I should imagine expansion will be fairly easy until they get about half wya up, where there will still be ligering raditaion and less people to draw upon. So immigration will deinitely be encouarged. On a secondary point, am I right in thinking that the Nordics will invest in the British nations and so we can receive some migrants from Scandinavia though they will probably be temporary, migrants sent to ensure businesses owned by Nordics set up properly. Mumby 18:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

In response to Smoggy's point, it's true that most nations won't want to get rid of their people; fortunately for us, many people have no nation, some of them close at hand. The unclaimed portions of France and Benelux, for example, would likely contain a reasonable (though not vast) labour force which in many cases would have at least a grounding in English, something that would make integration and immigration that much easier. Even closer to home, we may be able to draw some people out of the Celtic Alliance (though only those concerned more with Britishness than standard of living), plus a good few million people in the Midlands. Fegaxeyl 18:38, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

How do you suppose we get people ou of the Benelux countries? Do we just send across some chaps to covince them to come over? Tell thome the streets of Chelmsford are paved with gold? Mumby 19:07, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

It might work; perhaps not by telling them the streets are paved with gold, but certainly by promising them a reasonably better standard of living. And at least within the Benelux area there would be fewer cultural and social barriers. That's not to say that immigration from somewhere further afield - such as Africa - would be impossible, and certainly not undesirable; I'm simply suggesting that it may make cultural integration and acceptance a little easier. Even whilst trying to stay open and multicultural, 27 years of near-isolation has to breed some form of casual racism in a predominantly white population, even if it is mild. Fegaxeyl 19:16, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

You are right about casual racism, but its not as if this Britain is the same as the 18th century Britain. I mean in Cleveland some of the officially recognised languages are from Asia due to their tradionally higher birth rates in thise particular ethnic groups. But surely people from South Africa or West Africa will still speak English? Mumby 19:44, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'll concur to your better judgement. Africa is definitely not my field of expertise. Fegaxeyl 20:00, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

According to the article on the West Africa Union, the organisation has English as one it's official languages. I just had a looked at the wikipedia articles for the member states OTL and four of them have English as an O.L; Ghana, Nigeria, The Gambia and Cameroon.

The question of racial prejudice might not be in Woodbridge as a large % of the USAF troops that helped to found the state were of African-American or Hispanic origin Verence71 20:57, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

And we've just fought a war against a racially prejudiced enemy. We have seen with our own yes the evils of prejudice and hate. Hopefully we wouldn't be so blind to make the same mistakes as the TBA.Mumby 18:03, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

TBA
I've added to the True British Army page that the possible capital that has been occupied by the TBA since 2008 is Corby in Northamptonshire, does anyone have a problem with that, if not i'll make it official.--Smoggy80 18:46, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Corby or Northampton would be fine Verence71 20:53, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

it'll have to be Corby as Northampton was hit in the third wave of DD attacks with a 200KT bomb so would be currently uninhabitable--Smoggy80 18:41, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough :) Verence71 00:10, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

OK so the TBA capitals Corby in Northamptonshire i've added a bit about the TBA having activities in the former counties surrounding Northamptonshire.

If, in the future, the militaries of East Britain, Woodbridge and Essex would like to invade and finally destroy the TBA the militaries of both Cleveland and Northumbria will give all assistance the OBN nations. Eventually the TBA will need to be removed to make the former UK a more stable place --Smoggy80 18:20, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

The way I picture it, the TBA is already out of the picture. Not only did they sustain heavy casualties in the last war (especially the counteroffensive into Essex) their leadership was also assassinated in the process. Given the TBA's nature - a number of roving, fuedal-like clans running protection rackets over much of the countryside - it'll be hard for a new leader to crystallise immediately. However, there is the chance that in some of the more central areas (which in my mind went through North Korea-esque conditioning) things would be more marshal and orderly rather than gang-based, so a new regime could rise up. However, I've got the feeling that if/when the TBA does return, it'll be in the order of years, likely decades, unless something beneficial comes their way,

Has anyone considered refugees from TBA territory fleeing to the Core OBN states? Fegaxeyl 20:09, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

It occurs to me that after the Wars of 2010 the civilians under their control would be aware of the absolute kicking the TBA got so perhaps they wouldn't be as scared as they were before and so some would be emboldened enough to do a runner.

I like the idea of a core TBA area still existing where the general populace isn't so aware of outside events. It might be an idea for Woodbridge or Essex to make periodic drops of propaganda leaflets in order to stir up trouble Verence71 18:33, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

I've been toying with the idea of a Black Hawk Down-style scenario involving an Essex airship or Woodbridge helicopter crashing during some form of exercise over an enemy walled city. A leaflet drop-gone-wrong could serve as the setting for such an event. Fegaxeyl 19:57, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, chaps, the way I'm looking at things, the TBA is what nigh upon everyone calls the state, because all we've really encountered are the fringes, the wandering warlords loosely tied to a central authority. True British Army seems to men to be a very clumsy name for a nation. Should we give the TBA a more mainstream nation name. One I've come up with. The Britannic Junta Federation?or are they still the English Empire? Mumby 20:16, December 2, 2010 (UTC)Oh and as an afterthought, should we put them on the map?

How about the English National Republic??

If we're going to have a Black Hawk Down type scenario could we have it happen to a Woodbridge 'copter at some point next year?? That way it could become a cause celebre in the election we will be holding next year?? Verence71 16:39, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Much agreed, Mumby. The TBA never really satisfied me, and I only really threw it in because 'English Empire' sounded way too pretentious for a handful of counties, especially given that it would be attempting to preserve the infinitely vaster British Empire. However, what you suggested - 'wandering warlords loosely tied to a central authority' - has made me think: what if the TBA is basically a Spartan-esque society of former soldiers and officers, who have some form of alliance or pledge of service to another state with its capital in Corby? That could reconcile our new developments with my initial ideas of having the TBA capital in Milton Keynes - the TBA could use Milton Keynes as some kind of citadel-base for its armies, which the other nation - the English Empire, the Britannic Junta Federation, whatever it could be called - would employ in defense and expansion. This could mean that the TBA's protection racketeering might be some form of compensation from the state (let's say the BJF): the BJF, which holds some form of law and order, refuses to allow the TBA to do all its racist warmongering stuff within BJF territory, but turns a blind eye to the activities of the TBA elsewhere as long as the army promises to serve and respect the integrity of the BJF and assists it with expansion. This could require a little retconning, however, should still be workable.

And Verence, I've no problem with using a Woodbridge helicopter. Though an Essex airship would be a little more spectacular a sight when crashing, it's a bit more plausible that the helicopter crash would leave survivors. And I'm guessing you'd link the cause celebre in with the kerfuffle around the initial kidnapping of soldiers due to poor command skills in the West Suffolk invasion? Fegaxeyl 18:00, December 3, 2010 (UTC) PS - Just noticed the English National Republic. Sounds reasonable if the state tries to be a little more tolerant and less extreme than the TBA.

Republic doesn't necessarily mean democracy. Just think TTL Sicily or OTL North Korea or DRC. Shall I create a page for the English National Republic? Mumby 19:39, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

The whole Black Hawk Down thing would be the final straw for a lot of Woodbridgers if it was added to the mutilation and killing of non-white Woodbridge troops by the TBA in West Suffolk and the imprisonment and killing of others in and around Ely.

Fegaxeyl's suggestion of the way the Enlgish National Republic and the TBA would co-operate puts me in mind of how things worked towards the end of the Warlord Era in China Verence71 20:07, December 3, 2010 (UTC)]

I think that's a good idea, Mumby. If you get that started, and then we can start going through this with a fine-tooth comb and changing it to suit the retcon. Perhaps we should resubmit this article as a proposal?

Verence, it wouldn't be a surprise that Essex and most likely East Britain would support you too in any military operation. And thanks for the link to the warlords; anything we bring up, you always manage to have a link to an interesting tidbit of informaton at hand! Fegaxeyl 20:43, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I studied China as part of my degree and a couple of years ago I had an idea for an AH where the events of China between the World Wars would be transfered to Russia in the same period. Alexander Kerensky would take the role of Sun Yat-Sen whereas Marshal Zhukov would become Chiang Kai-Shek Verence71 15:18, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

Just occurred to me that a more Black Hawk Down-like scenario would be set in Ipswich - like the OTL event, there are friendly forces nearby meaning that motorcades or similar could quickly move into the area, but there is still significant resistance within the city (the gangs mentioned in the Woodbridge article). Exactly what the spark of the battle would be I'm unsure, but perhaps a rogue TBA group that had managed to sneak through Babergh and then united the gangs in Ipswich could work. This may well be even more a cause for concern for Woodbridgers than a similar event in TBA/ENR territory, because it is so much closer to home. Fegaxeyl 11:46, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I've added a bit to the TBA page saying that the TBA has set up a military citadel on the Hambleton Pennisular in the middle of Rutland Water, as it is the most easily defendable place i can find in the area, i thought the Capital can remain in Corby (and if Mumby is setting up the ENR it would be a good place for the capital, give the TBA and the ENR a bit of seperation) but the TBA have a base in Rutland. What does everyone think?--Smoggy80 14:05, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with it, and it certainly seems like a logical thing for them to do. If I were to make one suggestion, though, it would be that they've been working on it since 2008/9, after they lost Milton Keynes. Fegaxeyl 14:28, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

It might be fun to have the Black Hawk Down thing in Ipswich. Since Doomsday the city could well have turned into something approaching Mogadishu now where various armed groups fight for control of the city. Perhaps the leader of whichever gang controls the old Ipswich Borough Council could claim to be "Mayor" Verence71 23:08, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Newspaper
Would the OBN have the facilities to publish and distribute a single newspaper across all its member states? Not only would it be useful from an in-universe perspective and add to the sense of integration, it would also allow us, the editors, to create our own version of the NewsHour page for matters relating solely to Britain. Fegaxeyl 10:17, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

That could work as a fortnightly or monthly publication. Reports could come from all the member states to a central clearing house in Woodbridge staffed by journos from each state Verence71 12:51, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Would Woodbridge host the printing facilities, or would those be distributed across member states to save time shipping? (I'm not sure if national newspapers like The Times are printed in one location or across several.) Fegaxeyl 13:22, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Probably have seperate printworks in each state and have seperate editions for each one. Each edition would have the same basic stories but, for example the Cleveland edition could have additional articles on how the wider stories would effect Cleveland Verence71 13:57, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

So, editorials and local news to pad out the paper? Sounds good. Fegaxeyl 16:39, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

That's right. Verence71 20:08, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Any ideas for a name? The British Times? The Heritage Post? The Monthly Guardian? Fegaxeyl 20:21, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

I like the idea of The Times but as the OBN only consists of English nations (for now anyway) The English Times?? Verence71 12:30, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Personally I prefer it as 'The British Times' because it is, of course, part of the Organisation of British Nations. If we start creating the image of 'Englishness' now, we may alienate any Scottish or Welsh states interested in joining the OBN (if there are any), which in the long run is not in the OBN's interests. That said, if there were to be The Welsh Times (printed in the Welsh language) and The Scottish Times (printed in Gaelic or Scots) then it would make sense to have The English Times in the English-speaking parts of the OBN. But, personally, I'd rather have The British Times or something more neutral. Fegaxeyl 12:43, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I take the point, British Times it is :) Verence71 14:24, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Expansion Maps
It occurs to me, guys - with the addition of Lancaster and Southern England - maybe Matlock too - shouldn't there be edits or something to these future expansion maps? They're really not applicable anymore. Lordganon 21:54, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

They were only ever "provisional" any but I take your point.

Unless it changes completely I can't see Matlock ever being accepted as a member of the OBN Verence71 16:51, January 23, 2011 (UTC)