Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

I Thank you for trying to expand my colonies, but you still have them too small. You ignored any expansion I made them do before I started any big thing. I asked you politely to stop mapping russia. Is that too much to ask? You ignore the fact that I own those three states(even 25% would be more than what you put witch is nothing). I own "Samara", "Komi" and "Syktyvar"(and yes, I use quotations to denote their "existance"). Syktyvar the city does not exist and is the capital of the Komi Republic OTL...where Von copypasted all his names...and Samara was founded OTL in 1585, a decade after the great superimplausiblevendettabalkanization of russia, therefore should not have existed ''in the first place. ''And honestly, who heard of a city being founded as a military outpost, that city was a mere military outpost...an outpost!!! who hears of an outpost being a capital!(unless of course the population is so small that I can easily goombastomp it just by sending 50 000 army to its capital with little to no resistance and say bow or die) Also, my small expansion east was completely and utterly ignored. Also, what justification do you have of making the Island of Novaya zemlya its own nation. really? how could you plausibly do that? NOBODY LIVES THERE(except a phew small naval outposts) !!! '''Please stop mapping Russia. I do not trust aybody but me with my nation anymore. Thank you.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:38, March 13, 2013 (UTC)'''
 * that northern island is not a nation, that was a mistake.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:36, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * you still did russia's novorossiya wrong...but I am inclined to like what you did with kanada, but its still too small. my Kanada is less St Lawrencey and more clumsy and diagonal. Novorossiya is  WAY  too small. And those nations I own...and why is there a border with ex-muscovy, anyways, my map will try to account for cypriot expansion.-Lx (leave me a message)

22:53, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The border i would remove but i forgot.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:39, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

I have two colonies Colie. Both are in Africa. AP and Imp even labelled the area. Its been 30 good years now and yet no one has even added my colonies. Please don't make me wait. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:54, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Where they are, then?I need their locations.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:36, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll show u the map collie, don't worry. This is it :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:05, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. i'll add them in 1645.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:06, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hi I was wondering why the Somali Sultanate is not on the map when it was formed in 1637. This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 22:06, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * You will need to play for 5 turns to get your nation on the map. So check the 1645 map. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:12, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:36, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Two points. Collie, you haven't shown my 30% of N. Island yet on the map (mostly on the coasts) and could you explain to me how Khandesh is in civil-disarray and how could I incoporate it to my nation please (like removing its king or?) becuase right now I am at a loss what to do with it... :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:14, March 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll see if this can be done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:43, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you collie. :) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:05, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Brittany, Cornwall, Romania, Bohemia, Brunswick and Trier are all in civil disarray. Scandinator (talk) 07:00, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nassau is merged with Bavaria, currently the only remaining vassal is Salzburg, work continues with Bohemia.Andr3w777 (talk) 18:51, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, it was this? it is because i didn't understand what the event meant, so i assumed they had converted or something.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:06, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Lauenburg and Mecklenburg are fully part of Brandenburg. No seperation.

23:22, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Collie, you need to add my gains from the Maori war to the map! I won 30.3% of N. Island and I could like all the land I captured to be coastal areas (including my colony). :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:26, March 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * This ain't a matter of the 1640 map.i said that i would see if this could be done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:13, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Burgundy-Dutch War
Burgundy
 * Location: 4


 * Tactical: 6


 * Strength: Burgundy(L)+France(M)+Calais(MV) ---0


 * Military: 18


 * Economy: 0


 * Infrastructure: 0


 * Motive: 3


 * Chance: 3
 * Edit count: 2095
 * UTC: 23:25
 * 2095/60*pi= 109.6383333333333
 * Nation Age: +5


 * Population: 7


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent wars: 0


 * Total: 56

Netherlands

 * Location: 5


 * Tactical Advantage: 2


 * Strength: Holland(L)+Flanders(L), Germany (M) ---11/9 ~=~ 1


 * Military Development: 5/2 = 3


 * Economy: 5/2 = 3


 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = =3


 * Expansion: 0


 * Motive: 10


 * Chance: 8


 * Nation Age: -5


 * Population: 7


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: 0


 * Total: 47*1.5 = 70.5 = 71

Result
((72(129)*2)-1= 12%

The war will last 5 years so the Netherlands may take 10.8% of Burgundy.

Discussion
i know that with this i can take between 25 and 30 % but not sure how much would war last, and by the way i want the war to last enough to take the 33%, so could some mod  (AP - COLLIE OR SCAN) to please finish this algorythm for me, For the Record ap THIS IS NOT A RECONQUEST ATTEMPT, all i want is some more land and my colonies back

That's exactly what a reconquest war is.AP (talk) 02:17, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

i mean not a reconquest of the netherlands just of the colonies who are a mix of burgundian dutch and some italians i don't really care that much for the netherlands Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:22, February 3, 2013 (UTC) could you fix the algorythm please

The Netherlands were formed in 1593 after they defeated you in a popular revolt so they get a multiplier. I counted 10 turns of military development but one of them was during the war so it didnt count.AP (talk) 02:33, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Also, the Netherlands has two autonomous regions since two countries formed a federation-like country: Flanders and Holland.AP (talk) 02:36, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

i thought collie or scan said federations were going to be treated as one nation, to avoid a new caliphate from occuring Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:47, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * It was Saamwiil, i think, but this proposal never came into action, and, i still don't understand how this proposal would work.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:00, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's federation-like. They are basically a union. No matter, they have won the rest of the northern coast and some colonies.AP (talk) 03:01, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

I am joining this war.                 "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  07:05, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, France is bringing all the firepower to this war, so don't forget our help. Stewdio333 (talk) 07:45, February 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * You already are represented.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:32, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Punishment of Aragon (1602)
Germany Total: 57
 * L ocation: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Austria (S), Scandinavia (S), UKBT (M), Wettin Lands (Saxony M, other states 3*S = 6, +9) = 20/4 = 5
 * Military Development: 28
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Count: 9412
 * UTC Time: 21:22
 * 2*1*2*2 = 6
 * 9943/6 x pi = 5206.142...
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Aragon
Total: 16
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: Aragon (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 0 (new nation)
 * Economy: 0 (new nation)
 * Infrastructure: 0 (new nation)
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 2
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((57/(57+16))*2) - 1 = 56.16%

44.73 * (1-(1/(5*2))) = 42.12%

Aragon is punished. We restore the Brandenburgish ruler as the overall ruler of Aragon, although they have their own legislation and stuff. (Vassal, basically.)

Discussion
I tried to be generous to Aragon, but I think I did something wrong.

                "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:35, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

what 17 * 1.5 = 25.5 = 26 means?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:47, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

And why would a kingdom in northern Aragon be called Spain? Fed (talk) 21:57, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Now, if in this, he takes the Valley of the Aragon, the country won't be even entitled to call itself as such anymore.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:13, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

The Aragonese overthrew a tyrant, and Scraw couldn't do anything with Aragon to begin with. Let them go. Yank 22:16, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Btw, back when I still had control over Aragon and Navarre, I made them into one, Aragon. 1490s-ish.

                "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:19, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria did state that aid would be sent yet we are not on the algorithm?Andr3w777 (talk) 19:28, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Added, thank you. :)

<span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:36, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

DeanSims Again
DeanSims is abusing the civil war to be able to control more than one nation. Yank 01:29, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Yank chill, its my own civil war and i very recently controlled the Ottomans and Crimeans, the Ottomans/Romans as main nation and Crimea as a vassal, I can therfor control both the Ottomans and Romans. And why do you constantly keep calling just me out? (DeanSims: Talk) 20:27, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

As long as you do something to stop the Muslim rebels then you get it back. But Crimea has rebelled away, it is no longer your vassal. When your nation changes religion so suddenly, the other religions are going to rebel away because they want to be in charge. Beat them in a war and its yours again. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:42, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

OK, i will destroy the rebels and reunite the Kingdom of Rome! (DeanSims: Talk) 20:45, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian federation
Total: 35
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (colonial empire & attacks adv.) +6
 * Strength: Arabian federation (L), Comchellak (MV), Rajaputana (M): 9/7 = +1
 * Military Development: 4/3 = +1
 * Economy: 20/3 = +7
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +3
 * Edit Count: 6373
 * UTC Time: 14:41
 * 1*4*4*1 = 16
 * 6373/16*pi= 1251.33562383
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Persia
Total: 32
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (high ground) +2
 * Strength: Persia (L), Azerbaijan (M): 7/9 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/4 = 0
 * Economy: 3/20 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: -2
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +5
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (8+2) +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Result

 * Arabian victory
 * ((35/(32+35))*2)-1 = 1%
 * 1% of Persia's 27,142 pixels is 271 pixels.
 * Arabian federation wins 271 pixels from Persia.

Discussion
Note Arabian federation only wants parts of the Persian coastal regions. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:50, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Do any of my allies want to help me? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:32, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

At the moment you get only a measely single percent. In other words this entire affair was completely pointless.Yank 23:09, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Not really, I only wanted a bit more land. Why do you keep getting involved? Has it anything to do about you? Your predispositions are really starting to worry me. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:42, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

All the Rajput's help gets you is an extra four percent. This war was started because your sultan got pissed off because his pet traitors were exectuted by the Persians.

1600 map
I take it Collie's is the actual map & Scan's is going to be updated & become the named map right? Anyway where is that that named map I promised (well its numbered), so here you can now go and make the named map for 1600. 52-54 - Those 3 states are now part of the Sultanate of Sindhustan, this map hasn't been updated to show this.
 * 1) BohemiaPrincipia_Moderni_II_Map_1599_numbered.png
 * 2) Poland (Christian kingdom)
 * 3) Prussia
 * 4) Lithuania
 * 5) Minsk
 * 6) Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia
 * 7) Slovakia
 * 8) Kingdom of Hungary
 * 9) Duchy of Árpád (vassal of Romania)
 * 10) Kingdom of Romania
 * 11) Bulgaria (former Principality of Silistra)
 * 12) Kingdom of Ukraine? (Former grand duchy of Kiev)
 * 13) Smolensk
 * 14) Grand duchy of Chernigov
 * 15) Zaporizhia (Cossack nation)
 * 16) Kingdom of Donbass
 * 17) The Cossack Principality of the Kuban.
 * 18) Adyghe confederation
 * 19) Georgia
 * 20) Armenia
 * 21) Chechnya
 * 22) Azberjian
 * 23) 23 is now part of Nogai khanate
 * 24) Nogay (vassal of the Nogai khanate)
 * 25) Nogai Khanate
 * 26) I seem to have missed this number out of the map
 * 27) Republic of Nenetsia
 * 28) Komi Republic
 * 29) Kazan khanate
 * 30) Republic of Obdorsk
 * 31) Republic of Syktyvkar
 * 32) Khanate of Sibir
 * 33) Samara
 * 34) Tartar Republic
 * 35) Bashkiria
 * 36) Khanate of Cosapact
 * 37) Kazakh Khanate
 * 38) Akmola
 * 39) Zunghar Khanate
 * 40) Khanate of Mangystau
 * 41) Xwarezm
 * 42) Khanate of Almaty
 * 43) Dimurat
 * 44) Badakhshan
 * 45) Uyghur Khagnate
 * 46) Qoyunlu Empire
 * 47) Persian Empire
 * 48) Kingdom of Baghdad
 * 49) Kuwait
 * 50) Khafji Sheikdom
 * 51) The Arabian Caliphate (rump state successor to the Mahdiate/Hashemete caliphate)
 * 55 - Punjab

Anyway there you go Scan, now make the named map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:43, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Von. Now to harrass people to update the territories page... Scandinator (talk) 00:16, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I can name a series of problems with that map's names. fist off, let me thank you for trying. Second, I killed kazan in a war, third, none of my wars make sense if this is true(aka, all algorithms are wrong, and I should have one more easily), fourth, odonsk was founded in 1595, almost 20 years after the supposed balkanization of russia, fifth, syktyvar was founded in 1723 by Peter the Great, and there were settlements in that region near 1680, sixth, the modern capital of nenetisia was founded around 1930. in that region, the only people that would realy live in the 16th century, except perhaps 5000-6000 Novgorodian soldiers around a military outpost, would be the nomadic samoyeds, who would likely have the same relative independance as the first nations did in the americas at this time and around the mid-1600s despite foreign claim on the territory. The Nenets only number in the 40 000 today, after acute population booms, so I woyld place tehm at 5000 people. I do, however, doubt that there would be cossacks with permanant settlemetn around kuban prior to 1696(modern kuban cossacks founded). seventh, Samara was a military outpost built in 1586 by russia for the sole purpose of protecting against nomads, eighth, I doubt that the tatars would be seperate from Kazan, since it was the last true tatar city to exist, and the largest tatar city to exist today, and would have likely been the center of tatar culture if this were to happen, ninth, I believe that the city of kazan would be cituated in the confines of state "syktyvar" or "samara", and the "kazan khanate" would not even have kazan. tenth, the city of syktyvar is the capital of the komi republic, and would be in its confines, according to the map, the problems with that are already stated...sould I continue-Lx (leave me a message) 03:15, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Orissa
Total: 41
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (attacks adv.) +1
 * Strength: Orissa (L), Vassal 1 (MV), Vassal 2 (MV), Rajputana (M): 11/4= +3
 * Military Development: (7x2) 14/3 = +5
 * Economic Development: (3x2) 6/3 = +2
 * Infrastructure Development: (3x2) 6/3 = +2
 * Motive: (Social Kinsman) +7
 * Chance: +6
 * Edits: 9765
 * Time: 21:50 = 10
 * (9765/10)*pi = 3067.76522623
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10

Bengal
Total: 38
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Bengal (L): 4 = 0
 * Military Development: (5) 3/14 = 0
 * Economic Development: (5) 3/6 = +0
 * Infrasturcture Development: +0
 * Motive: (Survival) +10
 * Chance: +5
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (6+2) +8
 * Participation: +10

Result
Small Orissan victory. Mostly status quo, yet gain of 100km (2px ;)

Discussion
Its a new algorithim so some aspects might be wrong. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:05, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah a fair bit of stuff was wrong, I fixed it now. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:44, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, the idustry is meant to be halfed I'm pretty sure. :/  Imp (Say Hi?!) 08:55, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

It says so in the rules... Imp (Say Hi?!) 08:58, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

idustry? If you mean economic development & military development, remember that you player nations get 2 points for each year of development and NPCs only get 1 point for development each year. Hence 1 is half of 2. The NPC built up its development for 5 years for each development type, meaning it got 10 points for military, economic & infrastructure development each. This 10 is then halved to give you 5. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on. Bengal has become a backwater, how can they be waging a successful war against Orissa? I spent ages and ages on all three. Could I change it, cause I have been spending turns on economic and industrial growth? Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:44, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it has become a backwater, no mod events have established it as one. But seeing how it used to have a large empire then it lost it all, it still has that capacity for empire so is still strong. Besides those are the rules and we can't just change them and only follow them where it does us a favour.

I'll allow you to compromise and the war can be a draw and things remain the same. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:40, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Ok *(sighs at a useless war)*. Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:14, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Australian Colonization
This is implausible, at least until 1700 or so. It wasn't worth it to the Europeans or anyone because of the desert. AP (talk) 04:30, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Save the coastal regions.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:05, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but if you go into something that it's ten miles normal and then from then on desert you're not going to colonise it. Fed (talk) 17:09, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly colonizing Australia at the time now is not worth it for any European or Asian country. One, it is too far away at maintainance costs to protect and expand the colony would be a lot higher than in the Americas and Africa. Two, there are very few resources and growing areas. Colonies will need to import food if they start on the West, North or South Coast. Only the South East can host a self sustaining colony and that is after it expands inland far enough. In the meantime they would still need food imports. Scandinator (talk) 10:49, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Scan put it very neatly. Australian colonies can not become self-sustaining until after decades of life support from the mother country. Australian colonisation does not work the same way as American colonisation. In America, you just drop off the colonists and they can build a self-sustaining colony in minutes. And if they do need assistance, it takes like a month max to send a ship from Europe to America. It took a year to go from Europe to Australia in 1788. It would have taken a ridiculous amount of time to get there in 1610. And again, I reiterate the main point, Why Bother when there are sooo many more profitable and closer places to colonise? I am Saxony, so I don't have vested interests in colonies, I merely put this out there because it is completely implausible. The Dutch didn't colonise otl, and they were the colonial masters of the time. Why would anyone else do it TTL? Callumthered (talk) 11:03, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for putting my points more clearly. As an extra example. The Dutch were VERY active in our area but they decided to colonize Indonesia instead as the Indonesian archipelago is so much more profitable and much easier to control trade with than Australia. Also Australia's most valuable commodities have no uses in the 17th century expect for coal and iron. But why bother with a year long journey to transport it back when there are sources in Cornwall, Alsace-Lorraine, the Ruhr and Northern Italy.Scandinator (talk) 12:54, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Austrailia has a lot of desert, yes. But the regions to the southeast are green and fertile, and that's where my colonies are location (around Adeilade and Melbourne). There they were be able to remain self-suffient given the large area of pasture, farmland, and mineral resources, with the addition of fishing waters not far from the sites of the colonies. And generally speaking, whether or not the land is worth colonizing is up to the players and nations. Norway didn't need  a reason to colonize barren Iceland and Greenland, but it did anyway. The same can be said of Russia taking over Siberia, which was barren and had no resources that could be accessed for quiet some time. The purpose of colonization isn't about what land is better or even if its worth colonizing. Its about prestige, who has more of what, and bragging rights. The British colonized Austrailia not for the resource they didn't know about until later, but simply to get rid of the "undesirables" of the home islands. In the end, a nation can make up a reason to do anything, or in most cases, doesn't need a reason at all. If they want it, they can take it regardless of whether it makes sense or not. That's just human nature. We're selfish. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:21, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Notice
It is quite likely that I will be quite busy/inactive over the next few weeks (this applies to the past week as well). 77topaz (talk) 04:58, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

Scandinavia

 * Location: 2


 * Tactical: 6


 * Strength: Scandinavia(L)+Saami(MV)+Portugal(S)+Leon(S)+Castille(S)+New Georgia(MV),14/4--- 3.55= 4


 * Military: 30/3 = 10


 * Economy: 0


 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 3


 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count: 2112
 * UTC: (05:09)
 * 2112/45*pi= 147.3706666666667
 * Nation Age: 5


 * Population: 7+10


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent wars: 0

Total: 64

Mombasa

 * Location: 5


 * Tactical: 0


 * Strength: Mombasa(L)--0


 * Military: 3 = 0


 * Economy: 3


 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 0


 * Nation Age: -5


 * Population: 6


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent wars: -1

Total: 30

Result
(64(94)*2)-1 = 36.2%

(36.2%)*(1-1/(10)) = 32.5%

Discussion
Can New Georgia realistically provide military aid in this war?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:15, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You can edit your own algorithms, not anybody else's. You're not a mod, so quit acting like one. And yes, they can since they are a legitimate nation that is under protectorate status. Besides, you used Vinland on several algorithms.108.214.113.122 03:49, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

A: Anyone can edit an algorithm.

B: I didn't edit it.

C: I only used Vinland in wars in North America.

D: New Georgia is in Canada. This war is in Africa.

Do you see where I'm getting at, anon?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:54, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Most people forget the dividing the winner's score by the loser's score rule. I'll get at the rest of them later, but for now Scandinavian Africa begins in Kenya!AP (talk) 04:00, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think they (New Georgia) can help militarly.supplies, maybe.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:19, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I read the event closer and it states that Mombasa annexed its neigboring city states and their hinterland(Lamu and Malindi).AP (talk) 02:34, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

You have to the time thing:

p * (1-(1/(x*2)))

Where p is 34% and x is how long you fight.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:39, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

And in order to topple their government, you have to make this war last seven years.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:27, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

German War into Africa (1609)
Germany Total: 43
 * L ocation: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Austria (S), Aragon (MV), Navarre (MV) = 10/4 = 2.5 = 3
 * Military Development: 28/3-- 9
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Count: 10036
 * UTC Time: 03:19
 * 1*3*1*9 = 27
 * 10036/27 x pi = 1167.741...
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 16 (6 digits, +10 because the population is 5x that of Bonoman's)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Bonoman
Total: 38
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: Bonoman (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 3--0
 * Economy: 3
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((51/(51+38))*2)-1 = 21.4%

Discussion
Might as well get a leg up over the other powers.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

The Bonoman have been around for quite a while, they are not a new nation...108.214.113.122 03:47, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's -5 for ancient nation.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:52, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyway, the Bonoman have been around since i stopped expanding Cabo verde.which would mean somewhere around the late 1400's and the early 1500.which would make their nation age be 0 or +5.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:52, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was in 1516.0.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:54, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Your recent war score alo is five, according to the algoryhtm up there that said that the Aragonese war would last 5 years.but i might be wrong.And when your nation is about 5 to 19 years old since your last government change, you get -5 on nation age.And your last government change was in 1590.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:59, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The empire came about in the 11th century. <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">            [[Image:Regen Flag.png|25px|link=User:Scrawland Scribblescratch]]    <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."


 * Even though the Bonomans existed before, until the 1516 event, the area was divided into so much kingdoms that it was in dark grey.the unification counts as a government change, i think.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:05, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Since when do we divide the military scores?

Also, is it possible for me to switch the attacked nation?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  04:06, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently the rules dictate it. I don't think you can switch the nation attacked, just to be fair to the people that have wanted to switch the nation when they were losing. Who were you planning on switching it to anyway?AP (talk) 04:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kongo, actually. Decided that it would be more valuable.

Scraw 22:43, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

And then their nation age would be +5.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:21, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, forget it then. ;)

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Bavaria
Total: 47 (*1.5 for Luxembourg = 70.5 = 71)
 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker), 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: Bavaria (L), Nassau (MV), Luxembourg (L), Austria (MV), Navarre (S)= 14/4 = 3.5 = 4
 * Military Development: 6/3 = 2
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:7
 * Edit Count: 2,204
 * UTC Time: 04:08
 * 2204/32 x pi = 216.377194
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 17 (7 digits, +10 because the population is much larger than Palatinate)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Palatinate
Total: 48
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:Palatinate (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3/2 = 1.5 = 2
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 7
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
(71/(71+48))*2 - 1 = .1932 * 10 = 19.32%

Discussion
Can someone come along to correct what is wrong and fill out the parts i don't know? It would be much appreciated.

~ Andrew

Luxembourg joins this war, and Austria provides military aid now. Supplies from Navarre.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:47, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Portugal
Total: 49
 * Location:1
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker), 5 (larger colonial empire)
 * Strength: Portugal(L), Castille (MV), León (MV) +Scandinavia(S)+Saami(MV)= 12/4 = 3
 * Military Development: 16/3 = ~5
 * Economy: 14/3 = ~5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:7
 * Edit Count: 3843
 * UTC Time: 21:00
 * 3843/2 x pi = 6036,5702838728
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7+2 = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Gujarat
Total: 35
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength:Gujarat (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
49/84 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,16666666666666666666666666666667

Portugal can get 16,6% of Gujarat.

Depending if the war lasts 4 or 5 years, Portugal can get 14,52 or 14,94% of Gujarat.Since Gujarat has 3756 pixels, Portugal thus can get either 545 or 561 pixels.

Discussion
So, since it would be near impossible to find population statistics for Gujarat on the 17th century, i started to research Indian historical demographics, and comparing Gujarat with the whole of India, i came to the conclusion that Gujarat's population in 1610 would be roughly 4 million people.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:56, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

A religious movement
Could I have a new religious movement begin in Orissa? It will be basically based around a simplified version of hinduism. So out of so many gods, we will only have the main three and the god of luck (the elephant god), along with the god of money and good fortune (Laxmi, the elephant god's wife and the reason for Diwali). Would that be fine as we already have a Kreppanlits (or however you say it) movement in Europe? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:42, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Anybody at all? Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:23, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Most of the other mods that might tell you something will be active in some hours.i don't have a an opinion on this, so i'll leave this to somebody else to decide.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:30, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Ok. :) Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:20, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

There would be religious strife, riots, holy wars etc as the religion develops. are you sure you wish to take this path? If yes, feel free to create it. Scandinator (talk) 08:18, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Well, yeah. It'll help me abolish serfdom and destroy the caste system. And people might say a democracy solves the castle system, well look at India - its a democracy yet the caste issue still runs riot...

Don't think I'll have holy wars though :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:16, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Plus its great for colonising colonies :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:17, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Principia Moderni II.I
Since the map game looks fun and all, people want to join it, but at the same time it is like over a hundred turns in, so if somone could create maybe another one that goes on during this one, that would be grrrreat Daxus Inferno (talk) 14:14, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

I dont think that is necesary, von made sure that all anyone acomplished was destroyed by the mahdiate...everyone basicaly has to start form scratch. So the game is realy only 25-35 turns in. almost all alliances and states were superimplausiblevendettabalkanized-Lx (leave me a message) 15:38, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's an awesome (not at all) unbiased statement. Fed (talk) 19:18, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * but you do have to agree that the mahdiate basicaly did make everyone restart their entire nations' things, either because balkanizatoin or long ass war.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:22, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

There is no problem in joining the game while it's going on.You just have to make sure that what you say about your nation doesn't contradict in-game reality (or is implausible).the third Castillian player, and the former Cornish player used to do it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:46, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Resignation
While I really hate to do this, but this semester's already too hectic for me to handle, and I doubt I'll be able to play a lot for the next few months. As such, I think it's time for me to retire from the game.

I assume that decades (or centuries if they're lucky) from now, the Papal States are likely to be taken over or reformed in some aspect. All I ask for the sake of the citizens is that they get to retain some of their rights and land (i.e. not being totally assimilated), and that the Papacy continues in some form, LOL.

It's been fun, and I'll pop in from time to time to see how the game's going. I hope to be able to play PMIII, whenever that starts :D. Regards, ChrisL123 (talk) 23:06, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Join the crowd, lol.

Although I don't plan on leaving the game anytime soon. Hope to see you again later!

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:11, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Vacation Mode
I'm going to be in Orlando for the next week. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to use the internet in that time. Yank 05:44, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Orlando ehhh? I went there last year in April. Have fun! Scandinator (talk)

Nice place, nice place. Good thing it's not too hot right now. Have fun! CrimsonAssassin (talk) 15:16, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Industrialisation
I've been doing a lot of research into this area and have come up with the following results. In order for a nation to start the Industrial Era. They must first have multiple social and geopolitical factors in play: These factors all clicked for Britain in the early 18th century. Scandinator (talk)

Discussion
This is what I was going to open up in the mod page. So all mods, meet there.AP (talk) 04:00, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Why is Bavaria not listed? It has plenty of Universities, Hans Joseph discovered the optical telescope, and I'd imagine i've plenty of resources,as well as a stable monarchy.Andr3w777 (talk) 05:09, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Brandenburg's colonial empire is vastly larger than the Manchu one. Also, the Indian nations should not be anywhere on this list, and the upper class is pretty big in Venice.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  05:27, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Also, when was the last time someone invaded Brandenburg?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  05:31, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

@Andrew Bavaria is on the list now. General Education is teaching everyone to read and write (including the peasants). Also its only stable constitutional monarchies that can make 10 and I'm not sure if you are a constitutional monarchy...

Yes Bavaria has a constitutional monarchy, the queen heads up the reichstag which is the Bavarian parliament.

@Scraw The Indian nations have fulfilled those requirements that they have been listed under. Brandenburg is up there for colonial empire (dunno how I missed it). The "middle class" in the 17th to late 19th century refered to the class of urban-dwellers between the nobility and the peasants. Venice has thousands of traders and merchants in their cities with over 30% of the population in towns and cities compared to ~20% in the German States and less than that everywhere else. The last time Brandenburg's heartlands were attacked and damaged was by the Madhi 50 years ago. Scandinator (talk) 09:17, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Scan, could you give some basic definitions for these categories? (i.e. what resources could be mass-produced? How do you establish religious freedom in the sciences?) CourageousLife (talk) 16:09, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Russia and Scandinavian merchants have formed NETA, the North European Trade Alliance, succesor to RETA(Russo-European Trade Alliance), witch is succesor to the Hanza. NETA maintains strong control over the baltic and black sea markets. Russia has had many scientific advances(although most of them were military and naval in nature to ensure novgorodian market can reach further)...ex. the flintlock, the icebreaker, the rifle, soon the submarine, and universities(the Academy of sciences included) have autonomy from the state or the church if that counts for anything, Russia also pioneered medicine developing a crude smallpox immunization process for the mayans and pioneering human anatomical study..-Lx (leave me a message) 16:47, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

oh, and russia is a big(as in one of the largest) producer of firearms, and most certainly the largest producer in baltic, eastern, and central europe. although I do not know if that is good enough to count as a resource...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:06, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Oh. I thought my trading between the vassals and my merchant fleets heading out to trade with Europe and China was good. Well looks like its not :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:16, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

What does pro-business legal system mean? Also, Cyprus was invaded by the Mahdi too.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  18:26, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

There are several nations that don't have points where they deserve them. Scandinavia and Germany have very large navies and do in fact have the ability to transport the resource, i'm actually not sure about Venice since their navy was annihilated by the Caliphate according to Von. Scandinavia has several scientific universities in the colonies as well as back home. Scandinavia is a constitutional monarchy under the Riksdag and the Queen, Burgundy is one as well. Scandinavia owns the richest farmland in the Eastern seaboard, the Chesapeake and therefore we would be able to mass-produce cotton. Also, the Rajputs and Cyprus were invaded by the Caliphate and Manchuria recently had to deal with a Korean war for independence.''' I would like to further reiterate that any "coincidental changes" in your nation will be ignored as an excuse to get points on this chart. Also to prevent confusion and other crap, only mods may modify this chart'''. AP (talk) 18:38, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * The part about the navy does not realy give you a market, however, your participation as one of the elite members of NETA does...you have a market and he hability to market a resource because of the near control of the Baltic sea market and beond with NETA(witch is one of the things i wanted to say).-Lx (leave me a message) 19:35, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * But how do you classify a coincidental change? any change could theorically be considered as such.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:17, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

In agreement to everything you said, I must point out one minor error. Sine has some sort of notion that he can always post to the turn four hours after the new turn starts. In the days of Lurk, this would not have gone unnoticed and would have resulted in a ban ages ago. This also means that the conversion to constitutional monarchy does not count.

One last thing: did Britain really have any form of general education whatsoever?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  19:05, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Important note: No Catholic nation will be able to achieve number 2 because of the Pope and stuff. HERESY and BLASPHEMY and all that, you know?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  19:07, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, that makes me happy I am orthodox and the power of the partriarch is much less than that of the pope...although there will be censorships...but a bit less...mostly comming from the state(historicaly, the church ends up in some way shape of form "under" the state in orthodoxy in OTL...Byzantium, Tsarist Russia...witch made russians avoid the "who's power is greater, the emeperor's or the pope's debate that went on in the rest of europe, as the emperor's was clearly superior.)-Lx (leave me a message) 19:35, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if there's a solution to Catholic bonds... <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:05, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

@Europe: Venice will break the Pope's control over science in a few decades with the heir who is a lot less devout that his father. However it will result in internal chaos and the establishment of the Church of Italy and the Pope fleeing to Venaissin or Trier.

@Lx: Outline how you can mass produce rifles without the production line in factories. Rifles are too complex to make the list for any nation bar venice which has the arsenals with their primitive production lines. But this is also a closely guarded secret so you cant just get an arsenal...

@ Everyone: Points 6-9 are linked. To qualify for 8 you need both 6 and 7 and to get 9 you need 8. Britain also had very basic general education for the peasants to allow them to read and write during the early 18th century and the Turks had general education in a few cities in the 12th century.

Also a pro-business legal system is a set of laws that promote cottage businesses and/or merchantilism. If you are a merchant nation or one with scattered outposts for trade you can obtain that point. Scandinator (talk) 00:36, February 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Would my two companies, the South Oceans Company (created over a decade ago), and my North Oceans Company count for merchantilism, along with the encouragement of citizens to become businessmen? [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:17, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Quick question: what product did Britain have?

Also, could the precious gems (diamond, etc) count as one of those products?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:44, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Britain had coal to export, and they manufactered cloth grown in India. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:16, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Mwahahahahaha me has much Ko....el....

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  20:29, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Shame for you. I have the ability for cotton, and I sit on top of India's largest coal reserves XD  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:21, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Just wait until the Oil age and I shoot up! MWahahahaha! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:59, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Damn!! XD  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:17, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Does this mean that Russia will get the no more wars thing now? the last war in our heartland was the mahdi...-Lx (leave me a message) 17:42, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

That wouldn't work, as you have invaded areas from your own country. If that was the case, then I would be getting the homeland thing too, methinks. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:45, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

That was part of my question, does the no wars in 50 years thing count as wars being faught in your homeland(i.e. you being invaded and loosing), or does it count for wars you were fighting and you invade another nation. Either way makes sense, because if there was a war within your borders, the land would be ravaged and rebuilding etc... and i can see the other side too, you used resources for war instead of developing and/or lost lived therefore manpower, although, I would think beign invadede would leave a worse impact. So, to simplify, What counts as Wars in your homeland? All wars you participated in, or all wars where you were leader?-Lx (leave me a message) 21:49, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah! Thats my question too. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:27, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

oh, and the mayans just made me realize something, Russia is a rather good producer of flax, witch can be cultivated and made into clothing...yay, I have an extra three points right there...oh, and some sort of freedom for reserchers, that circles within circles of the ptolemean geocentric model were rather redundant and unnecessary, and that the geo-helio model is unneccesary. The Academy of Sciences has authonomy from the state, and can study whatever it wants...alhtough getting studies out...-Lx (leave me a message) 14:30, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that I built my merchant class up heavily during my early colonial period.. A large amount of Norwegian traders gained monopolies over the North Sea trade and such.AP (talk) 02:00, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

When did Scandinavia get a pro-business legal system and the division between higher and middle classes? Scandinavia is practically flowing with nobility at this point in time. Also, does coal count as a resource you can use? Because it really will be crucial to the industrial revolution.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:17, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

To be frank, you can't make assumptions about my nation like that..I know what goes on in my nation, I wouldn't give myself(or anyone else for that matter) points for something they haven't done/implemented. Cheer up! If the Industrial revolution begins in Denmark, you will be the very next nation to industrialize.AP (talk) 02:44, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Good point, but tbh, almost all of your resources come from your colonies.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  02:58, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

AP, you might industrialise first, but when Orissa and Brandenburg industrialise, we will do what Germany and America did to Britain - catch up with you and then overtake you :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:31, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Not If i can help it! And since the Revolution spreads geographically from where it began, you'll have to industrialize much later. ~AP

Ahem. I don't think that is what happens. Yes, you will start first, but nations are allowed to industrialise on their capilibities and investment into industry and stuff. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:45, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see Russia's points put up(i.e. religious freedom, and the three points asociated with linnen and flax textile industry)...I want to make this perfectly clear, even if it would be awesome for russia to start industrialising first twice, I do not want to take that possibility away from other people, so i will not agree to inustrialise first.-Lx (leave me a message) 17:39, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria should be on the leaderboard, it has 4.Andr3w777 (talk) 03:48, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria also has a nicely extensive supply of coal underneath the nation, so why is Bavaria not listed for resources and value of said resources? It would be nice if someone responded.Andr3w777 (talk) 16:56, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia has been incrediably supportive of scientific research and progress. Just look at our work with Orissa in the field of science in recent years. After the fall of the  CALIPHATE , Ethiopia's emperor was pushing for scientific reform and progression of Ethopia's technological base (as we were trying to compete with the rest of the globe). Also, Ethiopia has the potential to become a large cloth producer thanks to the grazing lands below the Ethiopian Highlands and expanses of the Ogaden. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:56, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Burgundy

 * Location: 5


 * Tactical: 0


 * Strength: Burgundy (L),France (M),Switzerland (MV) (?)= 9 = 0


 * Military: 26 = 0


 * Economy: 0


 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5


 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: +0


 * Population: 6


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent wars: -5


 * Total: 25

Luxo-German Coalition

 * Location: +4 (Luxembourg)
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Luxembourg (L), Brandenburg (L), Aragon (MV), Navarre (MV), Austria (S), Scandinavia(M)+ Saami(MV), Venice (M), Saxony (M), Cyprus (M), Crete (MV), Mayan Empire (M), Eire (M) = 36/9 = 4
 * Military: +30 (Brandenburg ~28, Luxembourg ~4) - 32/26 = ~1
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit count: 10119
 * UTC: 21:54
 * 10119/40*pi on calculator  = 794.444
 * Nation Age: +0 (Brandenburg)/-10 (Luxembourg)
 * Population: 9 (7 digit population comined, +2 bonus)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -6 (Aragonese war [5 years], Bonoman war [undefined length])
 * Total: 22 * 1.5 = 33

Result:
TBD

Discussion
Help welcome.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:03, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Austria has an alliance with me so i think it shouldn't be counted

there was Government change, Burgundy is Now a Constitutional monarchy, also why does luxembourg gets the 1.5 if it didn't either revolt or anything Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:08, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, Luxembourg has had a 1.5 multiplier for a while and any revolt (which I didn't see happening) has gone over for a long time.

Anyways, what is it with the House of Luxembourg's recent extreme expansionist wars? Fed (talk) 01:09, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

@Sine your post doesn't count. It was after the new turn was posted.

@Fed Just this turn I had a revolution. And Luxembourg has never had a war since this one.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  01:14, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I skipped over that part, sorry. While I mantain that unless there are massive changes in government a succession struggle isn't enough, that's a fair point. :P

And I kinda meant the House of Luxembourg as in Brandenburg & Co. and Luxembourg & Co. Fed (talk) 01:39, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

These bonuses/penalties are quite ridiculous sometimes as this massive coalition of Europe's great powers can only hardly beat one nation and a few extra troops.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  17:41, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Count me in. CourageousLife (talk) 00:02, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

My nation Age Should be +5 ,not +0, the last Government change until 1615 was in 1377, Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:18, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

No, your last government change was when you rebelled from France and declared yourself a Kingdom.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:57, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

when was that ? i forgot which turn Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:16, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sunni Caliph
I say, after the end of the previous caliph, a new one should be elected. A council of Sunni Muslims will be held Alhambra to elect a new caliph. Oh, and the Caliph would basicly be like the OTL Shadow Caliph, mainly only for ceremonial, some political(Jihads), and religious matters. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 06:45, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

There is the Arabian Caliphate already. Scandinator (talk) 13:45, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

The Abu'ids (those who opposed the Mahdi before he was all Mahdi-y) took o er the Hijaz region during the collapse of the Mahdihate and claim to be the Caliph. Fed (talk) 17:32, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia (Belligerent)
Total: 60
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +2 (High Ground) +1 (Attacker) +5 (Larger colonial empire)
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L+4), 4
 * Military Development: 22/3 = 8
 * Economy: 4/3 = 1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +5
 * Edit Count: 1852
 * UTC Time: 15:01
 * 1*5*0*1=5
 * 1852/5=370.8
 * 370.8*pi=1163.056
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +17 (Larger population)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Adal (Defendant)
Total: 44
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Adal (L+4)
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: +0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +6
 * Edit Count: 1852
 * UTC Time: 15:01
 * 1*5*0*1=5
 * 1852/5=370.8
 * 370.8*pi=1163.056
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
60/104 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,153846154

Ethiopia can take 15,3% of Adal Territory so far. Ethiopian victory so far.

Discussion
If I've messed anything up, please say so now. If not, I wish to vassalize this annoying nation. Took me close to a century and a half, but I finally did it. Adal is mine. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:22, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

So, I fixed a few things. You can expand your military and your economy, but you can only include one in the algorithm. After that, you divide the strength of the aggressor by the defender. Apart from the population, which Collie will have to look up for me, the rest is fine.108.214.113.122 21:47, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

That was me btw.AP (talk) 21:48, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks AP. Also, I expanded the military, economy, and infastructure at the same time after the invasion of Travancore (I believe more than 15 years ago). Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:41, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Man, how can u only get 1.8%? Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:11, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I look at it an shake my head. I upgraded my military, economy, and infastructure 15+ years straight. By only my military is shown to have been upgraded. Should be close to 30%. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:19, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * This 1,8 makes no sense.Your actual result would be more like 11%, war duration undefined.And plus, the 25 for military development also makes no sense, as there ain't no way of getting a uneven number for this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:04, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Give it to me straight doc. Can we fix it? Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:08, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Now you guys can see why I hate the NPC bonuses. Adal should've been gone a long time ago.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  19:24, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

And I agree. Seriously, what was the rationale behind providing bonuses to NPCs? Historically, most of the NPC nations were stagnent in all three areas, and Adal was a weak kingdom that had been destroyed by the Portuguese-backed Ethiopians. I mean seriously, when 400 Europeans help wipe out a force of 14,000 warriors, you've got a problem. By the way, Adal collapsed as a nation 1577. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:28, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * In order to not make them too easy to defeat. We were having this kind of problem before hand.without a NPC bonus, one could, say, invade France while it was inactive and topple their government, theorically.Anyway, the number difference falls more into having more advanced technology.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well there should be two forms of NPC bonuses. One, a strong NPC nation gets them, while some backward African/Indian nation doesn't. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:56, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I put the correct number in (61), and got 35.4%. May I annex Adal now? Also, which is more beneficial; vassalization or annexation? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:34, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

How are you calculating this? you only would get 35% if you got 100 points or so.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:44, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I fixed it, no problems now... :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:22, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

There was still one.attacking nations don't receive any points for infrastructure.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:32, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Naval battles?
I'm just curious. If another country's navy is blockading my country, can my Navy fight those ships with the warfare algorithm? Stewdio333 (talk) 21:34, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

There is no real precedent in this matter. But if your entire coast has been blockaded and it is reasonably plausible then no you wouldn't be able to. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:27, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian federation
Total: 43
 * Location: +2
 * Tactical Advantage: (colonial empire & attacks adv.) +6
 * Strength: Arabian federation (L), Comchellak (MV): 6/4 = +2
 * Military Development: 6/3 = +2
 * Economy: 0/3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -8
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +1
 * Edit Count: 6,450
 * UTC Time: 23:11 - 6
 * 2*3*1*1 = 6
 * 6,450/6*pi= 3377.21210261
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (20+7) +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Wehali
Total: 38
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Wehali (L): 4/6 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/6 = 0
 * Economy: 3/0 = +3
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +2
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (5) +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result

 * Arabian victory
 * ((43/(38+43))*2)-1 = 0.06172839506
 * 6.17*(1-1/(2*2)) = 4.6275
 * 4.63% of Wehali's 575 pixels is 27 pixels.
 * Arabian federation wins 27 pixels from Wehali.

Discussion
I'll finish this war up tomorrow. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:27, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

YEah it'll be a 2 year war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:45, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Treaty over Burgundy
Luxembourg is taking the Mediterranean coastline.

Venice is taking areas of Switzerland. The rest is gaining independence.

Crete and the Mayans get colonies/parts of colonies.

What doth me fellow winners thinketh?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  21:37, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'll talk to you about dividing the colonies and such. CourageousLife (talk) 21:41, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy with my gains; if nobody else is interested in the northern Antilia colony CorageousLife and I will partition it. I'll create a map over the next few hours. Airlinesguy (talk) 22:04, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking something like this CourageousLife (talk) 23:54, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

We haven't won by nearly enough to take that much land. Cyprus is asking for too much. The real leaders are Germany, Venice, and Scandinavia.AP (talk) 23:57, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

But they hath surrendereth. Anywho, I was thinking they could divide the Colombian colony.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:04, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but we still have to adhere to what we won on the algorithm unless they want to give more up.AP (talk) 00:08, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Has the algorithm been completed yet? Besides, one of the conditions of surrender could be that they relinquish some of their colonies. CourageousLife (talk) 00:14, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

And neither Cyprus or the Mayan are really interested in the southern colony, we're both interested in Neu Antwerp. We just divided it because we assumed it was an option also. CourageousLife (talk) 00:24, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Can I instead of taking parts of Switzerland take East Panama? Scandinator (talk) 05:22, February 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * You were fighting for Switzerland, so you can have Switzerland. Me and Airlines were fighting in the colonies, so we are taking the colonies. CourageousLife (talk) 20:28, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

This map is wrong.Burgundy acquired the mainland part of the Portuguese/Castillian colony on OTL Guyana and gave part of Brasilea in return for it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:54, February 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's the 1615 map, so it would be an issue with the mapmaker. CourageousLife (talk) 20:28, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, this couldn't be taken into account yet, as they only sold it around 1617.but it will be on the 1620 map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:02, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

And plus, the coalition only won 13,7% of Burgundy according to the algorythm, or 583 px.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:04, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

I removed the map, since it's not up to date. So, since we get 583 pixels, just divide it nine ways, for the nine nations that fought. 65 pixels each. CourageousLife (talk) 21:59, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

The pixels from Aragon, Navarre, and Brandenburg are going to Luxembourg, so it can take 260px, enough to rob Burgundy of its coast.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  23:11, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

The pixels for the Mayan Empire are going to the Caribbean Coast of Panama. CourageousLife (talk) 23:25, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Fine Venice will take strips of Northern Savoy. Scandinator (talk) 13:17, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Orissa
Total: 56
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Nations: (4+2+2+3) 11/4 = 3
 * Military Development: 22/3 = 8
 * Economic: 4/3 = 1
 * Infrastructure: = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 7
 * Edits: 9948
 * Time: 18:10 = 8
 * (9948/8)*pi = 5906.570464736
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Bijapur
Total: 35
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: (4) 4/11 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/22 = 0
 * Economic: 3/4 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((56/(56+35)*2)-1 = 0.230769230

Orissa can lay claim to 23% of Bijapur. In five years, they can capture 20.7% of however many pixels Bijapur has.

Discussion
Get Collie or Von over here. I need to know how many pixels Bijapur has... Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:33, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Again, attacking nations get no points for infrastructure.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:56, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ok. But how many pixels? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:48, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

Bijapur is on the western coastline of India right? I'm using the 1600 named map to know which this country this. Well anyway Bijapur has 2,379 pixels. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:13, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

It is the country right below Gujarat.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:04, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, i just got lucky!! :) So the no of pixels I can claim is 20.7% of 2379.

So, I can claim 492 px of the country. Hmm... :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:46, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I would like the bright blue area next to Orissa (thats a priority), and I would also like however many pixels I can get on the coastline in bright blue. Thanks :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:54, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

War finished, with 20.7% of Bijapur in my control. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:46, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Question
Colonies can expand into unorganized areas, yes?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  22:58, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

i assume you are talking about areas on civil disarray.Yes, but your expansion will be halved (if you expand 2000 sq km into a certain area, it will be counted for the map as 1000 sq km.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:00, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

So by how much can they expand? Does it have to fit with the normal colonial rates? Imp told me it was 15000sqkm.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:48, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes.it has to fit.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:06, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure a main country can expand into unorganised areas by 15,000km. But I think it might be different for colonies... Imp (Say Hi?!) 00:50, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Burgundy Gains
So, there seem to be to sides as to what was won in the war. One side says that only several pixels can be taken as gain, because that's how much was won in the algorithm. The other side says that the algorithm was enough to strip Burgundy of it's colonies entirely. Which one is correct? We need to get this settled. CourageousLife (talk) 05:12, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

The coalition can get only the set amount unless Burgundy agrees to give more than that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:08, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

i think this Post should have been called Coalition gains Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:43, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia and You
Now I have to address this matter once and for all, its gonna be long, so Scraw shut up and listen, I'll write for as long as needed. Considering this is the Alternate History wiki, there appears to be little tolerance for alternate decisions in actions made. To put in the words of one user: "Many people claim that if it didn’t happen, it couldn’t happen, or that if it had certain pros and cons they would always stay that way for a person, peoples, or nations entire history, even if certain developments change the entire time frame forever, that no matter what, they are stuck with those problems for eternity, and I personally think that’s a load of, well I wont say that yet, maybe later." And considering that history is ignored for the simplier "Europe is just better" excuse is mind-numbing.

What is the point of doing anything if the mods state that you can't do anything to chance the course of a nation's history. I played Ethiopia with the hope of capitalizing on its many many chances. For one, Ethiopia had early contact with the Europan empires such as Portugal, and was aided in developing its technological base. Unlike many other African kingdoms, Ethiopia was for its time, a modern and well-organized nation, and had actual soldiers instead of poorly armed and motivated warriors. Its had cannon, guns, heavy cavalry, and European recognition of its rule in East Africa (evidenced by Portuguese letters between the King of Portugal and Emperor of Ethiopia). Its religious belief in Christ did much too gain European favor which aided it in surviving many invasions.

Japan and Cyprus don't have to do anything special to expand overseas when in actual historical accounts the Japanese hated outside interaction, and Cyprus was the rump-state of the Turks and Byzantines. The last bit of glory Cyprus had was when it sack Cairo during the Crusades, by it was immediately steam-rolled in prompt retailation that destroyed much of everything it had. The Japanese were good sailors, but never had the European-style ships that allowed for long-range travel. So what's my point? Like Cyprus, Ethiopia's navy was obliterated. But like Cyprus, Ethiopia rebuilt it. And like Japan, Ethiopia never had long-range vessels, but like Japan aquired them through hard-work and research. Just because Japan and Cyprus are better documented than Ethiopia doesn't mean that they were any better.

Now this statement goes for all nations like Ethiopia. They don't have the starting techs or experience to expand overseas, but like any human civilization anywhere on the globe in recorded history, they can develop this information themselves. It's almost ignorant and insulting for the kind of statements made by people on a history wiki, especially an alternate history one, to say that a certain nation can't do something simply because they never did it in real life. That's why we have alternate history. To do what real life nations refused to do or just couldn't do because of problems they suffered. Could Hitler have taken over the world? Yes. Many governments and veterans admit to that fact. Did he? No. Too many nations fought against him and he lost too many crucial battles. But what "if" he won Stalingrad? El Alimen? The Battle of the Bulge?

Now what "if" Ethiopia pursued a naval course instead of a land one? It had colonies before. It was right across the Red Sea like Korea was right across the Yellow Sea for Japan. heck, quoting Wikipedia, "Axum was a naval and trading power that ruled the region from about 400 BC into the 10th century." Even Mani, a Sassanid prophet, he stated that Ethiopia (not Japan), was one of the four world powers during the 3rd century along with Rome, Persia, and China (once again not Japan). Also, Ethiopia was a major trading power. Thus, saying Ethiopia "never" was a naval nation is an ignorant statement to make without having proof to back that up. I don't like having to type this even time someone smudges history. Just do the research (I did), and understand that since this is alternate history, that some things can be allowed. I mean for Christ's sake, we've got a whole gain of nations that never had navies going around building empires.

So you understand my point, I'll compare Ethiopia to a better known empire - France. France was just like Ethiopia. Sucked at seafaring, and rocked on land. Unlike Ethiopia, it was never the major naval trading power during the time of Rome, nor the famed superpower stated by ancient historians. However, it developed its navy many times, and saw its destroyed countless times. However, did that mean that since its ships were destroyed that it technology disappeared? Nope. When it was freed of English rule, France built an even better navy, and expanded overseas. Does this mean they were pushing it simply because they never had a long history of seamanship? No. It simply means that they saw an opprotunity overseas, and worked to get it, just like Ethiopia. I spent a century and a half working on naval technology, but to say that I'm "pushing it" because I'm using said technology is erking.

Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:15, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'll have to agree with Viva. Playing as the Mayan Empire is challenging because I'm not allowed to do anything because I'm a native nation. I have had European-level tech for some time now, and have the capacity to handle European ideas on infastructure and education. Recently, I wasn't allowed to enact an education system because 'No one in Europe or Asia had one'. This is rediculous. If I can't have my own ideas and actions not limited by my native heritage, then why play? To let the European players have more fun when they subjugate my nation? I am advanced enough to do certain things that keep getting shot down. I see opportunities, and I go for them, but I have to wait in line because I'm not from the Old World. CourageousLife (talk) 21:35, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

This is to do with plausibility. Why would anybody from your nation want to be educatued? You will first need to change your countries attitides. The mods say there is nothing wrong with schools, but first they need to be implemented in the higher classes and then the general masses.

Viva, let me tell you something. When I started as Bharat in 1830 something in PM, I was a rump state - had no power, no alliances and looked like no future. Yet I changed that. In 150, I took my country to becoming a world superpower. Do not worry, take your time. There is no need to rush into things. Get your alliances straight and keep expanding (you still haven't accepted my alliance).

So folks. Play well, and reap the rewards. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:31, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Imp, I must agree with you. But I fear this is a recurring theme across all of the wiki. Even in plausible situtations, the mods still shoot down ideas they themselves use them in ways that make no sense or couldn't happen, such as Scraw having Sweden force the USSR to become a puppet state, and becoming a superpower when many larger nations had the same tech but no potential. This isn't limited to just a few games, and I feel that this has to be resolved on the wiki on general. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:58, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

I guess that I'll explicitly state that it's for upper level children in the future, though I thought it was implied. Would you mind unstriking my 1624 post? CourageousLife (talk) 00:05, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

For starters, your argument is built on a logical fallacy. To avoid fallacious thinking i'm going to explain. You cannot possibly use OTL history to justify what you are doing in this timeline. If all your posts say "Ethiopia does X,Y, and Z" then all you've done that year is X,Y, and Z. You have to write things in, give your history flavor and a realistic feel to it. It's not a matter of what could have happened it's "what circumstances led to this." Ethiopia was a land-based empire not because it wanted to, but because it had no other choice than to be one. The point is to plausibly expand to create an interesting alternate history, not a radical step in the other direction. Therefore Australian colonization is a stretch. Even worse is attempting to colonize a crowded south America, which by the way was retconned because you established two colonies within a 50 year period already. I'm tired of repeating the same thing, so i'm going to go because i have real issues to attend to.AP (talk) 03:26, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

AP has made a point. Have you seen my posts? They have an almost in-depth analysis of what is going on. You will need to write more about what is happening in your country. However, that does mean that you will be able to plausibly do thing you want to, becuase you have explained why through your post. So my Raja wants to invade Bijapur again, I stated "the raja was dissapointed and plans another invasion of the country".

And Viva, just trade with me tons. I'll help to bring scientists and ideas to your country in return for coffee and stuff and we ca make like an alliance and stuff :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:54, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

I was sure I did that. I explained the Ethiopians felt they had a better future oveseas than in Africa (pre-Caliphate), and that the Emperor declare many things related to such developments in the nation such as modernization. I'd also be happy to trade with you for technology Imp. At least that be the most historically correct action (since Ethiopia and India traded in real life :P). Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:44, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure if I took control of your country for 10-15 days, things might get a lot different :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:11, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Church of the Epic People of Wayupthereland
@Everyone: So, this is for me and AP only.

@AP: I was thinking we could have three patriarchs, one German, one Scandinavian, and one other. And each resides in their respective territory. Or in Pomerania, which is ethnically German but otherwise Scandinavian.

Also, I think we should keep the Germanic Church but the call each of the Patriarchs something different.

Thoughts?

I think 3 patriarchs would be confusing and would lead to problems in interpreting doctrine later on. We should have one Patriarch of the Germanic Church, my suggestion on his residence would be in Lubeck or somewhere like that.AP (talk) 05:06, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. What about the name?

05:16, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Patriarch of Lübeck or Patriarch of the Goths would be good.AP (talk) 06:22, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

OK then, we have the Germanic Church and the Patriarch of the Goths who lives in Lubeck. Sound good?

Btw, when do you plan on joining?

22:05, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Orissa
Total: 55
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Nations: (4+2+2+3) 11/4 = 3
 * Military Development: 12/2 = 6
 * Economic: 8/2 = 4
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edits: 10150
 * Time: 22:30 = 12
 * (10150/12)*pi = 2657.263786
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 18
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Bijapur
Total: 37
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: (4) 4/11 = 0
 * Military Development: 2 = 0
 * Economic: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Result
Orissan victory. Orissa can claim 19.5% of Bijapur. The war will last 2 years, and Orissa will be able to take 14.7% of Bijapur.

Combining this with the previous war, 20.7 + 14.7 = 35.4% enabling for the Orissan to topple the Bijapuri government.

Discussion
There is the map of how the area will now look. Bijapur will remain like this until I can link up with it :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:54, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

This result has to be redefined.whjen you are at war, any development on military, economy and infrastructure won't be counted.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:23, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

um next round
can you guys give me a heads up when pm III starts and if no one has called it i claim england

You don't call stuff before the game is even planned. CourageousLife (talk) 02:39, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Most likey in 2014.and nobody knows how is it going to be.but i think that if you start to worry now, you are going to end up forgetting about it whan the time comes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:12, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Mysore/German Colonial Empire

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Mysore (L), Germans (L), Orissa (M), Mataram (MV), Godavari (MV) = 15/4 = 4
 * Military Development: 30/3 = 10
 * Economy:0
 * Infrastructure:0
 * Expansion:-1
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +6
 * Time: 21:36 (2*3*6 = 36)
 * Edit count: 10314
 * 10314/36*pi = 900.066
 * Nation Age: -10 (Mysore)+0 (Brandenburg)/2 = -5
 * Population: 17 (7 million people all across the German Empire, +10 because Travancore has significantly low population for this time.)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -4 (Burgundy War)
 * Total: 50

Travancore

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +0
 * Military: +3 = 0
 * Economy: +3
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +6
 * Nation Age: 0 (from 1570s)
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -0
 * Total: 38

Result
((50/(50+38))*2) - 1 = 0.136363636

13.63 * (1-(1/(2*5)) = 12.267

Results pending.

Discussion
You see where I'm getting at with the nonsense NPC bonuses? I'm bringing one of the most powerful nations in the world against a small feudal kingdom and can only take less than 7% of its land.

03:00, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't the NPC bonus 3 in each category? Why is it 5? Vassals can't lead wars btw, so you have to be the leader with Mysore being an MV.AP (talk) 03:44, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Oh right.

03:49, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

No European nation controlled a lot of land in India in the 1600s. So calm down, your just being over-expansionist. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:51, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

Gulf Of Mexico Division Proposition
Hi! Because we had a stuff up before, I'm going to do what Lx suggested and I am going to open a proposition thread. I think this will be made up of me, Lx, Corageous and Scan dividing the Gulf, because we are the only ones that have territory there, I think. Anyway, let the discussion begin!

I'll start: Lx, I'm willing to trade you coastline for the ability to continue expanding. Airlinesguy (talk) 11:04, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

I'm keeping the Gulf Coast up to the Dutch colony. Lx I ask you not to expand over me and I'll do the same for you. Scandinator (talk) 12:30, February 28, 2013 (UTC

Alright, thats prefectly fine, we just need to make a map tha the mapmakers will abide to when they are making the colonial expansions...aswell as actualy expanding colonies in the first place(what actually got us into this mess). Also, The dutch colony I would like to purchase,..-Lx (leave me a message) 14:22, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

They are NPC's.you can't purchase it from them.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:38, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm content with my current coast, so long as no one bothers the Mayans. CourageousLife (talk) 11:14, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

Here's my first draft proposal...draft proposal...mainly because I have no knowledge about the rivers along the cypriot colony proposed borders, that should change to suit the natural boundries...or enlarged if they want-Lx (leave me a message) 16:21, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

That leaves me with next to no land, however. I'm willing to sell you land to move my colony up next to Venice's or down next to the Mayan Empire so we can partition the land equally, but that gives you a lot more land than I get. Airlinesguy (talk) 22:26, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

The main point of that map was to establish natural borders(i.e. missisipi and the rio grande). everything ele is still in flux..but the best course of action I think is to move cyprus to the rio...save New Minsk cause that russian big city...-Lx (leave me a message) 23:55, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

OK, well I'm not that good at mapmaking, so do you want me to move my colony next to Scan's colony gradually? I can hopefully do that. Then we can partition the land I get right now between you and me. Airlinesguy (talk) 09:03, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Here's draft 2...I did not find natural formation along cypriot colony(well, more like I did not try to find one)...but for those that are less geographicaly ignorant about the situation in the mexican gulf, your aid will be much apreciated.-Lx (leave me a message) 17:22, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Which one of the colonies is the Dutch one? Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:17, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Grey one on the map...I decided to try and purchase it from the netherlands player since a dutch player showed up showed up. On this map it is the light purple surrounedd by darker purple...hope that hepls. If Netherlands decides not to sell then i will have to make some land for them aswell. but for now they can still stay presumably under my future control.-Lx (leave me a message) 18:22, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Mate, the Dutch are my puppets - just made them sign a clientage after 15 years of good trading and corrupting!. Is it the one in Florida or what? Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:24, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Here is the dutch colony ...I painted it in dark blue-Lx (leave me a message) 04:15, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'll have my map up over the weekend and honestly, to hell with natural borders. The Europeans just drew lines all over Africa to parition it. Airlinesguy (talk) 10:23, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

That wasn't exactly the case on America.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:42, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, we need a solution now, Cyprus, please edit witch part of your territory you would like to keep(because its your largest city) that is in my territory, and please somebody less geographicaly ignorant please find a geographical boundry in the proximity of that border I drew between Russia and cyprus. it can be a phew hundred kilometers off I dont care just give me a border and post a map. Also, can i buy the dutch colony...if a player nation is controling it of course.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:35, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

New Player: R'lyeh96
You guys mind if I join in taking Korea? R&#39;lyeh96 (talk) 16:34, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Seems fine with me, just be aware that Korea's in a difficult state right now. Nothing irreversible. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 16:40, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Chinese Dynastic Change
Well, boys and girls, it's almost 1630 and you know what that means... probably. The Ming Dynasty only has a decade and a half left in OTL. The Quing Dynasty takes over and life in China goes on. However, the Quing Dynasty was born of Manchuria, which is not part of China in this game. I've been thinking of how to handle this for some time and I came up with a relatively good idea.

As you probably know, China is in the middle of a golden age. Quite literally in many cases. New methods of spice production, silk production, and shipbuilding, coupled with a very strong and wise emperor has made China a very rich nation. However, all rulers, good or bad, will stop ruling a nation at some point. My plan is that China will be spoiled rotten from this guy. The emperors that come after him will be idiots. People will get fed up and miss the 'good old days' and start an uprising called the 'Guìzú Conspiracy'. After that, China will be ruled by the powerful families that gained their wealth during the Eastern Renaissance. For a little while, China will be an aristocracy. The lower class is going to grow while the upper class gets more and more money (seem familiar?) Well, the lower class is eventually going to say, "what the hell, guys?" and grow more and more discontent before throwing a revolt that will put another dynasty in charge and a stronger emperor on the throne.

The reason I say this is because I saw a mod event detailing a revolt in China and I assumed they were trying to start the end of the Ming dynasty. Decided to announce that I've got it covered and don't worry about it. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 23:18, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

New Player: Hailstormer
Hailstormer: Is it possible for me to run the Inca Empire? It is still listed as free, but it seems like Scandinavia is in control of it?

Is something complicated: Scandinavia tried to invade the Inca, but couldn't conquer all of it.the current map isn't right, as it is implausible to take over all of that territory in one turn.still, i would advise you to maybe take another nation to avoid problems.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:32, March 4, 2013 (UTC)

Hailstormer: Ok, i will take over the Australian Aborigines instead.

Orissa
Total: 75
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Nations: (Orissa (L), Godavari (MV), Mataram (MV), Bundela (MV), Bihar (M), Rajputana (M), Rajput Bundela (MV), 18/4 = 4
 * Military Development: 12
 * Economic: 8/0 = 8
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 7
 * Edits: 10394
 * Time: 3
 * (10394/3)*pi = 10884.57134713
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -7

Maori
Total: 35
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Maori (L): 4/18 = 0
 * Military Development: 0/12 --0
 * Economic: 3/8 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Orissa may take 36% of Maori land depending on how long the war is, they can take 30.3% of land.

Discussion
Did nobody notice that somebody taking the whole North island in 3 years, and plus, in the 1600's is highly implausible?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:15, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hahahaa. I know, but I won fairly. I have an idea. Would it be fine for me just to get the coastal area along with the area of my former colony? Now having coastal areas in your control in the 1600s was plausible, cause the Dutch did it, the Portugese did it and so did the Brits. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:29, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

This is implausible. The British had a hard time with them and your telling me an Indian nation is gonna just walk all over them? Please. And several things were wrong on the algorithm.AP (talk) 00:13, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

The British were outnumbered and didn't know much about the fighting styles of the Maori for quiet a while (5,000 Europeans verus 58,000 rifle-armed Maori is a one-sided fight). By the 1880s, the British could walk over the Maori at their leisure (700,000 Europeans verus 20,000 starving Maori is a one-sided fight). Plus, the British didn't have the political will to wipe out the Maori, given that the British were trying to champion themselves as the "Bringer of Civilization", not the "Destroyer of Worlds". Finally, the rules say he can take over the island, so that's what Imp did. I mean, your to busy trying to copy history rather than like it take its own path. The British didn't defeat the Maori, but that happened in real life. This is alternate history. Orissa managed to bet the Maori because this isn't real life. Just because it didn't happen in real life doesn't mean it can't happen here. You have to stop trying to drag OTL into everything, and trying to force ATL to abide by it. Besides, the British had a lower interest in New Zealand compared to the much larger and wealthy colonies of India, Canada, and Africa. Orissa is closer to New Zealand and can thus devote more resources toward its conquest. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:32, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Your statements are invalid, considering the fact that you are comparing an Indian nation to the British Empire in its hey day.AP (talk) 02:41, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

And this is what I mean. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:09, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, its not like he colonized all of France, China, and Brandenburg in one turn. He conquered the Maori of the north island. And unlike the British, as Viva said,  pretty much knew what they were up against, and had the men to do it. He didnt conquer ALL the island, shall you remember. Gee Lord! ஆஸ், I wear your Grandads clothes (lk) 11:11, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

The Brits were overstretched. Hell, I have trained armies, and a few thousand cannot hold off the Orissans, who can match their whole population with our army! Plus the Maori are not a nation, they will not get industrialisation and military points. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:50, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. This is what I was talking about. The British had to pick and chose which colony they wanted to devote more resources too giventhat none of the native populations were all too happy that the Brits were taking over. Thus, colonies such as South Africa and India got more troops to deal with native populations given their relative worth producing diamonds, copper, wool, and gold, while New Zealand got fewer given that it had tiny amounts of nature resources and a tiny European population on the other side of the globe in a relatively isolated position. Only when New Zealand's population and worth increased did the British devote more resources to it. Orissa already has a strong presense in the area, and unlike the British, has the luxury of devoting more resources to one of only four or five colonies in the same area, unlike Britian's twenty or thirty far-flung, over-stretched, and densely-populated dominions across the globe. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:49, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think that declaring war in tribes is senseless. if you already can expand naturally on them, this is useless, and declaring war will be eventually a implausibilty if you win too much land.but i'm not talking about you personally.what i'm talking about is that all of this could be avoided without that event about the Maoris destroying your colony.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:01, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

But I'm not taking the whole island, just the coasts. Could I keep the coasts collie, please? Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:20, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I was talking that this war and, thus the 1631 event, as the war was caused by it, shouldn't have not even happened in the first place.About the second question, we'll see it later.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:25, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Later as in when, becuase I have not posted in 1632 cause the outcome still remains undecided. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:26, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

And the war will end in 1633, toppling the Maori... Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:50, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I see parts of the coast being acquired, but Orissan expansion is going way to fast. Orissan Netherlands and now a Maori that the British coult barely hold in their heyday? In the ''seventeenth century? Without advanced transport? By an Indian nation that does not have enough soldiers?'' 22:15, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Point to be noted - I focus exessively in the region, and I can land more troops than their whole population. I only want the island's coasts, not even the whole thing. And blame the mod event, it forced me to go to war. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:29, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'll say it again. The British in their heyday were overstretched with far more valuable colonies to deal with, and their main area were the soldiers were coming from was all the way in Europe. Orissa is far closer, more populous, and more devoted to the conquest of New Zealand than Britian. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:28, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Britain was distracted with Europe and its more valuable colonies.

But it was the Superpower of the time, and could devote far more troops to a small outcrop than Orissa.

Yes, the main area was Europe.

But they had steam ships instead of wooden boats, so not only would they not be lost in Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean storms but they would be far quicker to arrive in NZ.

Orissa might be closer, more populous and more devoted, but it is weaker and less developed. There's a reason why Patagonia and Oceania remained uncolonised until the 19th Century for the most part. Fed (talk) 23:53, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

^That. And if you make the war last until 1633, you'll only get 13.5%AP (talk) 01:53, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I hate it, but yeah ships could be a problem. Yet I have already started th war, so I will end it in 1633. And c'mon, +20 for the Maori is just Bull. Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:51, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

War finished, and I would like to say this discussion over please. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:41, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I've only just seen this war (I was gone for a week or so) and I'm wondering why we're allowing the colonization of New Zealand when it was discovered in 1642 and only 100 years later did actual trade and ideas of colonizing the islands begin to happen and spread. The Maori are strong, they know their land and Orissa is really overstreached & pushing its look trying to invade New Zealand. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:07, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I focus in the region, and I am closer by. I also have trained armies who can fight using cannon and rifle, and a navy which can usually make it to the country mostly intact. Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:59, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Venice
Total: 60
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 6 (atracker's advantage, larger colonial empire)
 * Strength: Venice (L), Piedmont (MV), Naples (MV), Three Sicilies (MV), Croatia (MV), Greece (MV), Albania (M): 17/17 = 1
 * Military Development: 14/3 = 5
 * Economy: 12/3 = 4
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0 (last expansion was in 1614)
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit Count:1753
 * UTC Time:14:09 = 1x4x9 = 36
 * 1753/36 x pi = 152,978108...
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -5

Malacca
Total: 43
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Malacca (L), China (M), Dai Viet (MV), Laos (MV), Siam (MV), Formosa (MV) Russia (S): 17/17 = 1
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 8
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Venice can take 16.5% of the Malaccas. If the war lasts four years. Venice can take 13.2% of the Malaccas. The Malaccan Sultante is 5885 pixels large so Venice wins 777 pixels.

Discussion
4x9 is 36, not 28.Ans we count chance based on the "(main) namespace" edits, you can't add your own developments to the Malaccan side unless you are a leader on this war, and Hainan is not a separate state from Formosa.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:56, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Venice has a population of around 11-12 million. Malacca is barely scraping 7 digits at this time. Indonesia was much less dense than other parts of Asia. Scandinator (talk) 00:05, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I know, but if we're going to count the whole coalitions's population, China has 9 on itself, i think.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:39, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it's been a while since I've done these algorithms (I think my last one was when I took over a few of the Khanates to be honest). CrimsonAssassin (talk) 12:45, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

The rules for the population part of the algorithm actually says nation, not coalition... Also much Venice's work into naval technology and strengthening trade links was ignored. Venice also does not seek to destroy Malacca, merely take the straits. Scandinator (talk) 13:53, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that you, without your other allies really has a 11 million of population.And, i didn't ignore that work, but you spent 5 years on a war.that takes precedence over the other activites, so they wouldn't be counted.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:51, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Northern Italy (the area which Venice occupies) had a population of around 11 million in OTL 1600s. Italy in total had around 14 million with 2 million in Naples and 1 on the Sicilies. Piedmont became part of France... With a more stable Italy and no continuous Ottoman & French raids and attacks the population would likely be a bit higher in Northern Italy. Scandinator (talk) 00:19, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Somebody can tell me how many pixels Malacca has?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:09, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

The Malaccan Sultante is 5885 pixels large so Venice wins 777 pixels. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:01, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Russia
Total: 67
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6(1+5)
 * Strength: Russia(4)/Minsk(M)/Obdorsk(MV) = 9/4 = 2.25~2
 * Military Development: 28/3 = ~9
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:8
 * Edit Count: 3596
 * UTC Time: 2:00 =2*1*1=2
 * (3965/2)*pi=5648.5 8 35911
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (8+20) = 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Sibir
Total: 35
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4 = 0
 * Military Development:3 = 0
 * Economy:3
 * Infrastructure:3
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:3
 * Edit Count: 3596
 * UTC Time:2:00 =2*1*1=2
 * (3965/2)*pi=5648.58 3 5911
 * Nation Age:0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:0

Result

 * Russian victory
 * ((67/(35+67))*2)-1 = 0.31372549019
 * 31.37*(1-1/(2*4)) = 27.44875
 * 27.45% of Sibir's 18,320 pixels is 5,029 pixels.
 * Russia wins 5,029 pixels from Sibir following the 4 year war.

Discussions
Hello...-Lx (leave me a message) 17:15, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Well, i don't know if it was either you or another person that i told about that if you update both military and economy in one turn only one of them will be counted in the algorythm, but now i already said.I don't know what basis did you had on not knowing if you was supposed to give them 0 or 7 in population.not even if you thought that the populations should be divided this would be explained.Anyway, theer population would be 6.7 for that area in this period would be overestimating.but i doubt your population reaches 10 million.given your famine of 1601-1603 didn't happen, i would say you have about 7 million.i don't know where this obdorsk is or if it exists.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:01, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Acording to Von, obdorsk does exist, even though it shouldnt(I never bloody founded the city, and even then, it would have just been a small NOVGORODIAN military outpost of no more than 1000 men). But hey, that complaint fell onto deaf ears so i guess it exists since it is all "too long ago" to change anything. Its that small bubble of NPC to the east of Russia in Russian colour. Russia has had 2 population booms in the past 100 years, so yes, I would have, I believe, at least 10 or 11 millions. but enough with that...I have absolutely no idea on how to do NPC bonus...I thought it was 1 point in each category, turns out I'm wrong, so I'll just to 3 points in each category for 15+ year old  NPC from now on and trus the math...I for some reason thought everything was devided, and I wanted to get this thing up as quick as possible(no want any edit conflicts)  and didnt take out any time to think. And I'm not trying to kill sibir completely, I just want to beat them enough to be able to intimidate the tatar state.-Lx (leave me a message) 19:41, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Even with those population booms, 4 million of increase sounds like too much, as you would be almost doubling your possible population.there is still the war agains the Caliphate, which would bring your population down.and there are still doubts if you have arable land enough on your territory to feed all those people. (although this would be actually a good explanation for your expansion, in theory)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:21, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Most of the Russian land I own is suitable for agriculture. but in the long run, that makes some decent bit of sense...I want more land to grow and whatnot, with the least ammount of war possible. for that I need Ukraine eventually..(.very good exuse for war with the Ukraine actually) or as much arrible land as possible, ukriane has much more population than the east, making them harder to take care of. the tatar state is almost all airable land, but even if I go to war with them, Sibir is still going to be blocking outward expansion. I want the least ammount of wars possible, so whar do I do? delclare war on Sibir, and use military to threaten the tatars into joining my realm as a vassal(and use their land as a result)...and eventualy they get annexed. -Lx (leave me a message) 21:06, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * No you need to conquer the Tatar Kingdom of Kazan, too. This war would intimate them so you could either ally with them (then vassalize them or something similiar after a couple of decades) or invade. Anyway I did the results section in a more easy to follow format. Anyway your best bet is invading Sibir before 1667 as you'd only 5.88% to make the Sibir government collaspe. Then worry about the Tatars in Kazan. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:26, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * You almost read my mind. I was planning to take care of Sibir for good in the near future. and I checked pixelcount for sibir with paint.net and they have 19667. I used the magic wand tool and the pixelcount(area) is on the bottom in pixels square. I was thinking more of a 3 year war, so that means approx 26% taken so 7% needed for a hostile takover. I will try and fool tatar state into thinking sibir is completely dead, or mostly dead, because I will take all land on tatar border. Then threatenally w/tribute in grain then vassalize then diploannex them all within the next 30-50 years.-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Serbia
Total: 36
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (attacks adv.) +1
 * Strength: Serbia (L): 4
 * Military Development: 8 (6+4/2)/3 = ~3
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 4 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count: 104
 * UTC Time: 07:56
 * 104/210*pi= 1,55583636
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Recent Wars: 0

Bosnia
Total: 45
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Bosnia (L): 4
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3 = 2
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 5
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Pending

Discussion
Mate you need to do your own algorithms. They aren't hard just copy & paste another person's algorithm and amend it. I've copied and based the base format there for you & done the easy bits but you must fill the rest in. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:27, March 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you do me the algorithms?, please, i'm very noob; i have an alliance with Russia. Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos (talk) 00:08, March 9, 2013 (UTC).
 * Well the best way to learn is from experiance and trying yourself. I'll moderate it but just try your best. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:56, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Is using the development scores from when he was a NPC is allowed?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:15, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Now that is a good question Collie. There is no real precident on it so it an issue free for debate. But I would say yes. As if he wasn't here then they'd be able to have a bonus but since he is playing now he no longer gains the bonus but his nation used to so he still has it. However it's only like +3 still rather than a player-development score. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:56, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not understand. Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos (talk) 10:32, March 9, 2013 (UTC).

Since they entered in 1630, they had 12 years with a NPC bonus, then.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:27, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian federation
Total: 56
 * Location: +2
 * Tactical Advantage: (colonial empire & attacks adv.) +6
 * Strength: Arabian federation (L), Comchellak (MV), Maldives (MV): 8/4 = +2
 * Military Development: 8/3 = +3
 * Economy: 6/3 = +2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +5
 * Edit Count: 6,481
 * UTC Time: 19:15
 * 1*9*1*5 = 45
 * 6,481/45*pi= 452.459155287
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (20+7) +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Wehali
Total: 39
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Wehali (L): 4/8 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/6 = 0
 * Economy: 3/6 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +9
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (5) +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Result

 * Arabian victory
 * ((56/(39+56))*2)-1 = 0.17894736842
 * 17.90*(1-1/(2*2)) = 13.425
 * 13.43% of Wehali's 533 pixels is 72 pixels.
 * Arabian federation wins 72 pixels from Wehali.

Discussion
Damn Wehali I will beat you eventually.... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:27, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Woah that's weird, the pixels I win this time is the number of the pixels I won in the last war (27) but the other way round now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:37, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Need any aid? :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:20, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

It won't make a massive difference plus we don't have any alliances. But I won't complain if you want to pursue friendly relations in-game. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:22, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of offering you help in return for Arabian recognition of my territories in the area (its not that much but Its a fair bit). :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:48, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

ANd I think go against wehali for 3 years, always better than 2 :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:49, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well just post something about that in-game and I'll act accordingly. Plus its only 2 years as I'm going to use the multi-war add up to 33.33% as that's only another 2 wars or so. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:27, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Just did. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:39, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

I'll aid you in your next war, seeing as this one is over... Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:33, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Labelled Map


So I was bored and updated the labelled map. BTW this is as of 1630.AP (talk) 01:10, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

How do you put the subtitles on it? so i could make my own maps later.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:16, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

There are some mistakes on that map in terms of territories, e.g. Comchellak is much larger and Arabia own all of the Tanzanian spice islands. But other than that it is good. Also Comchellak is a vassal of the Arabian federation and its full name is the Republic of Comchellak. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:46, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Its a great map. Just Bijapur is part of Orissa proper so it would be Orissa to. But great map. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:53, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

For Japan, there's a misspelling. It should be Mononobe, not Monobe. -Kogasa  2013年3月09日 23:06:13 (JST)

Thanks so much. It looks awesome! CourageousLife (talk) 16:28, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

I just fixed all of the things you guys pointed out.AP (talk) 22:42, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map


Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Why does it say "Photo Uploads are not allowed on this wiki"?
for some reason I can't upload anything to anywhere on the wiki. I made a modified European Map for my reference that detailed out the seperate churches of Europe, but the wiki won't even let me post it on my page.Andr3w777 (talk) 06:02, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia and Orissa
Total: 71
 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: (+1, +5 (Larger Colonial Empire)) +6
 * Strength: (Ethiopia (L), Orissa (L), Godavari (MV), Bihar (M), Bundela (MV), Mataram (MV)) 17/4 = 4
 * Military Development: +15/3 = +5
 * Economy: +15/3 = +5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 2,003
 * UTC Time: 22:33 = 36
 * 174.794724587
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Philippine City States
Total: 37
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Philippine City States (L): 4/6 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/15 = 0
 * Economy: 3/15 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +4
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Coalition victory. Coalition can take (71/(71+37)*2)-1 = (0.31481481481) 31.5%

31.5*1.5 = 47.25% of the Philippine City States territory.

They can claim (47.25)*(1-1/(10)) = 42.5% over the next 5 years, toppling the city-states government. The war finishes in 1643.

Discussion
You dont count military and economy, remember? Its one or the other on the algorithm.AP (talk) 22:38, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so the count goes as high as 25, and only one at a time? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:05, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

No the highest it can go in any category is 30, meaning 15 full years.AP (talk) 01:13, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Ireland

 * Location: +4
 * Tactical: +1
 * Strength: Ireland (L+4), Germany (S+2) = 0
 * Military: 12/3 = +4
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +1
 * UTC: (21:13)
 * Edit count: 802
 * 802/6*pi= 419.7133333333333
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Total: 29

Wales

 * Location: +5
 * Tactical: +2
 * Strength: Wales (L+4), Lincoln (MV+2), Cornwall (M+3), = 9/6 = +1
 * Military: 3/12 = 0
 * Economy: 3
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7+2
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 40

Result
Decisive Welsh victory.

Discussion
Just multiply 1.7 over however number of years you wage the conflict to get the final percentage of land. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:48, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Whoever "revised" the algorithm had no idea what they were doing. So many things got messed up.AP (talk) 05:28, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Just asking, When did Cornwall and Lincon and that other nation decide to help. No reason for them to

Oh, yes, i forgot, Cornwall isn't a vassal, and Wales vassalized only Lincoln.Anywa, Cornwall is allied, and Lincoln, well, they are vassals.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:46, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

When di they and cornwall ally?ஆஸ், I LIK PIE (talk) 19:47, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I just kniw that it is somewhere in the archives.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:30, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

When is this war ending??? Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:56, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Vassalization Algorithm
Hello, I was wondering if there was a vassalization algorithm. For example, the Somali Sultanate (Cushtic) vassalizing a non-played state such as the Swahili City States. This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 23:07, March 12, 2013 (UTC) There is no vassaliation algorithm. It's based on power and influence, something the Somali Sultanate unfortunately doesn't have. Instead of immediately vassalizing a nation, help your own nation out and then go and vassalize. Besides, the Swahili have been annihilated.AP (talk) 23:13, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Map request.
Next time someone makes a map, will they color in Poland? TacoCopper (talk)

If you play for more than 5 turns, i'll add you.by now you played four.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:01, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

May the Somali Sultanate (Cushtic) be added too? This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 21:49, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian federation
Total: 59
 * Location: +2
 * Tactical Advantage: (colonial empire & attacks adv.) +6
 * Strength: Arabian federation (L), Comchellak (MV), Maldives (MV): 8/4 = +2
 * Military Development: 4/4 = +1
 * Economy: 14/4 = +4
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit Count: 6,539
 * UTC Time: 14:52
 * 1*4*5*2 = 40
 * 6,539/40*pi= 513.571859046
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (20+7) +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Wehali
Total: 35
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Wehali (L): 4/8 = 0
 * Military Development: 4/4 = +1
 * Economy: 4/14 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +1
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: (5) +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Result

 * Arabian victory
 * ((59/(35+59))*2)-1 = 0.25531914893
 * 25.53*(1-1/(2*2)) = 19.1475
 * 19.15% combined with the results of the previous wars against Wehali in the last 30 years adds up to (4.63 + 13.43 + 19.15) 37.21% which is enough to overthrow the Wehali government.
 * Arabian federation overthrows the Wehali government and all of Wehali is annexed into Arabia's Kupang.

Discussion
Sweet I took over all of Wehali! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:20, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Orissa
Total: 67
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Nations: (Orissa (L), Godavari (MV), Mataram (MV), Bundela (MV), Bihar (M), Rajputana (M), Rajput Bundela (MV)) 18/4 = 5
 * Military Development: 18/3 = 6
 * Economic: 4/3 = 1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 7
 * Edits: 10521
 * Time: 19:13 = 27
 * 1224.173937
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -4

Malwa
Total: 38
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: (Malwa (L)) 1/18 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/18 = 0
 * Economic: 3/4 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Orissan victory.
 * ((67/(38+67))*2)-1 = 0.276190476
 * Orissa can claim 27.61% of Malwa

27,61 x 1.5 = 41,4
 * Orissa can claim 41,4% of Malwa, meaning their government collapses.

The war has to last 6 years in order to topple their government.
 * (0,414285714)*(1-1/(6)) = 0,345238095
 * Orissa captures 34.52% of Malwa in 6 years, capturing its capital and winning the war. The state will be absorbed into Orissa.

Discussion
Shouldn't it be +5 for Malwa's development scores not +3? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:25, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Also you did the 1.5 multiplyer wrong and haven't specified how long the war will be, thus meaning the result algorithm isn't complete. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:32, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Nope, I checked with collie on that. Its to do with the fact that the numbers are actually 2.5, and get rounded up to 3. Oh, thanks for fixing that 1.5 thing Von, I thought it was the other way - really appreciate it. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:09, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

First time I have actually managed to topple a government in one war too :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:28, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how did you checked this out with me.what was going to be multiplied is the quantity of territory you take.Still, you still toppled their government, although you are going to need more time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:23, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Thats the way I had done it the first time, but Von told me you multiplied your own nation's score however. :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:46, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, the rules say that you're supposed to do it like that is now.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:52, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Wait you multiply the quantity of territory you win in the war rather than your nation's score? I've always multiplied my nation's score plus this means that only the country with the bonus benefits rather than every nation in a coalition. I'm a bit thrown now. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:20, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm just downright confused. :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:54, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

And where are my allies, I need them... Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:29, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well you won the war regardless, I just want to clear up this thing about when the multiplyer is done. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:57, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I did but still my allies did promise me. So do I, the multiplier thing is quite confusing... :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:59, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Map/ Nation Question
Hi guys. I have a question. I just uploaded a map to the main page with my nation Normandy colored in. It was just replaced about 10 mins ago. In the rules it said that anybody could edit the map on behalf of their nation.

I read again somewhere that if I play 5 turns, THEN i'll be on the map. I kinda get why this is. Anyways I just wanted to make sure, but this 'editing on my behalf' thing is only applicable after I get my place on the map, or what?

I have another question, since I'm new, and that is what do I do with dynastic union nations? My nation Normandy is in dynastic union with Brittany, so can I just claim/rule over both nations?

Thanks!

Cookiedamage (talk) 20:21, March 14, 2013 (UTC)CookieDamage

I'm afraid that was my fault. I saved the older version of the map, changed it, and then reposted it. It happens sometimes. You didn't do anything wrong, just re-edit the newest version of the map and then post it. CourageousLife (talk) 20:26, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

That's fine! I'll just re-edit it now, Thanks for telling me!

Cookiedamage (talk) 20:30, March 14, 2013 (UTC)CookieDamage

I did write on the game itself, that you can control both nations if you want to. Do you? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:32, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I do in fact :D :D :D! Next turn I'll have my King WIlliam V of Normandy assert his rule over Brittany and they will start on the road to peaceful unification of northern France (and domination of the rest of France >:D)  Also, I already put my name on the list thingy at the top of the main page, next to Brittany (dyn. union with Normandy)

Cookiedamage (talk) 20:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC) CookieDamage

Well, to actually control Brittany, you must go to war with it, as a dynastic union will serve for nothing but an alliance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:03, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Russia
Total: 64
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: Russia(L)/Minsk(M)/Obdorsk(MV) = 9/4= 2
 * Military Development: 14/3= 5
 * Economy: 10/3=3
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:7
 * Edit Count: 3633
 * UTC Time: 23:59 = 2*3*5*9= 270
 * (3633/270)*pi=42.3 7 18
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 28(20+8)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Syktyvar
Total: 34
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Syktyvar(L) = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit Count:3633
 * UTC Time:23:59 = 2*3*5*9=270
 * (3633/270)*pi=42.37 1 8
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Komi
Total: 34
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Komi(L) = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit Count:3633
 * UTC Time:23:59 = 2*3*5*9=270
 * (3633/270)*pi=42.3 7 18
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Samara
Total: 34
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Samara(L)=0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit Count:3633
 * UTC Time:23:59 = 2*3*5*9=270
 * (3633/270)*pi=42.37 1 8
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Russia-Samara: ((64/(34+64))*2)-1 = 0.30612244898 * 1.5 = 0.45918367347

Russia-Komi: ((64/(34+64))*2)-1 = 0.30612244898 * 1.5 = 0.45918367347

Russia-Syktyvar: ((64/(34+64))*2)-1 = 0.30612244898 * 1.5 = 0.45918367347

More Discussions
Lx they have capitals, whether you think they exist or not is irrelevent. They exist. Your algorithm is wrong, let me fix it now.... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:59, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also mods where do we stand on 3 wars starting at the same time with the same nation fighting, same chance score and what not? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:15, March 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Saying they have capitals doe not grant them capitals. just saying a city existed in the 1600s does not mean it existed. Syktyvar was founded in 1725 or 1723. Period. saying it exists will not change the fact at all that it does not. I care not anyway. I only need about 8% to kill them.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:11, March 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * The cities have been founded earlier in this timeline obviously. If there were no cities in these regions then how does anyone control it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:29, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * And the sun obviously rises in the west and not the east because why else would the globe on John Stewart spin that way. That is the same bad logic,  Thank you for making my point for me. You made nonexistant cities capitals of new implausibalkanization states because you were desperate to justify their creation. With a phew rare excepitons(ex. St Petersburg), cities are not founded, and then become capitals, and in those phew cases, its because of a strategic locatoin that is helpful to Said founder's ambition(Peter the Great's ambition for a naval Russia and capital "closer" to europe via trade reflecting his ambition for a more modern and european russia). None of this exists. dont even try. those cities dont exist, plausible excuses for them to exist dont exist, other cities that could have been capitals before thier creation do not exist, therefore, they should not exist and do not exist. either way, I own all of that now, and you cant do anything about it. They dont Exist -Lx (leave me a message) 19:46, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

And plus, even if their capitals don't exist, they still are fighting on their own territory, and the territory in itself is small enough to award them a 5.This would be the same sitaution as with a horde if they still existed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:09, March 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Now that makes some decent sort of sence. Anyways, it matters not, in 2 years I will have them all goombastomped because of the other 25% in that other war.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:09, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Germany/Brandenburg
Total: 53
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: (Brandenburg (L), Luxembourg (MV), Mysore (M), Bone (M), Vinland (MV)) 14/4 = 4
 * Military Development: 16/3 = 5
 * Economy: 14/3 = 5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Time:17:19
 * Edit Count:6009
 * 6009/636 x pi = 299.648099
 * Population: 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Prussia
Total: 42
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: (Prussia (L)) 4/14 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/16 = 0
 * Economy: 3/14 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
53/95 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,115789474

Brandenburger victory. Bradenburg gets 11,5% of Prussia.

Discussion
Explain me how and why Imperium Guy was posting for you.Now i don't know whether if i shoud use his editcount or yours.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:36, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I made this algo for him after I asked him whether he would like to go to war with Prussia or not. You can check his talkpage for confirmation. Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:40, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Collie, both me and Scraw have edit counts in the 10,000s... :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:47, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well, i had checked already.And, the edit count conts the "(Main) namespace" edits.Talkpage discussions and other places do not count.Ah, and The -3 in rcent wars is because three years of the war with Travancore were undertaken less than 15 years ago, and he also has 2 points deduced from his score, as he has two puppet states.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:50, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Where do you find the main "namespace"  edits? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:51, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

In the Editcount page, on the Special pages section.The "(Main) namespace" is the one which is right below the total of editions.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:54, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

But it doesn't show me the number of edits (I just tried it). Plus you got me and scraw mixed up. It should be him with the 11.5% and me with the 20%. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:57, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

No.In case of Scraw's editcount, both he and Prussia have smaller chance numbers, but he has an advantage (Brandenburg - 3/Prussia - 0).In your editcount's case, Prussia has the advantge on the chance number. (Brandenburg - 4/Prussia - 8)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:01, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, is the 5757 one mine? Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:01, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ys, it is the number of edits you had before 11:10.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:04, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

And we use Scraw's :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:02, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

But this situation is new.never on this game's history, one player posted for another, and declared war on his post.So we don't know how to deal with this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:04, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Hahaha, always great to have firsts! :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:06, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

That's what i'm talking about.if we use his edit count, so since it wasn't he who posted the declaration, so he has no edit time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:08, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well, could we just fix that by removing my post and getting him to post instead? The algorithim will not have to be changed majorly and only the chance thing will change. This could remove any problems we have. Would that work? Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:09, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly.That's what you should have done.Give him the idea and then tell him to post it, and not taking the matter to your own hands.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:12, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, sorry about this then... :L I'll remove my post and tell him to post the exact same thing :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:14, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh. I simply gave him the permission, but I'll repost it. Although, maybe we should set a precedent on this: algorithms always run on the playing user's count but the other's posting time?

16:24, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

My idea was to drop the edit time if this happens. (which would make [editcount x pi]instead of [editcount/time digits x pi])--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:49, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Both Imp and I both have edit counts in the 10000s. Where does 6009 come from?

20:08, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * the edit count counts only the "(Main) namespace" edits.So, Talkpage discussions and other places do not count to this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:54, March 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Collie, we have been using the full number for years. Just go back to older algorithms. I do not think it is time to change this precedent.
 * 22:07, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Normandy
Total:
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Normandy (L +4)
 * Military Development: 3/2 = 1.5 = ~2
 * Economy: 8/2 = 4
 * Infrastructure: 2 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Brittany
Total:
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Brittany (L+4)
 * Military Development: 2 = 0
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Discussions
This is my first war and algorithm. Am I doing it right :3? Cookiedamage (talk) 21:43, March 17, 2013 (UTC)