Talk:Great White South/Archive1

Worldwide Climate
Though this is intriguing, would not the whole history of civilization be radically different if there had not been an ice age such as laid down so much ice in not only Antarctica, but also Eurasia and North America? The world would most likely have been temperate over most of the land masses for much longer, giving rise to the unhindered expansion of the human race to most points of Africa, Europe, and Asia. With no land bridges, though, the continents of Austraila and the Americas would be accessed only after the utilization of watercraft (but that also being a lot sooner).

Though not ice covered, the points furthest north and south would have been colder than most of humanity would have wanted to inhabit. It would have only been with the need for natural resources that these regions would have been in demand. With a point of departure so far back in the past, far more than a southern tundra would be seen here. SouthWriter 16:08, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I reworded it. —NukeVac (Talk) 16:29, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am assuming that the periodic ice ages (allowing for argument's sake the evolutionary geological model), would be similar to those that left glaciers in North and South America, Europe, Asia and Austrailia. This then would still have left NO massive ice sheet covering most of what we call Europe and North America today. I don't wish to spoil your scenario, but I am "afflicted" with ADD and tend to have a "perfectionist" view on these things. [By the way, what is called "ADD" probably is not a "disorder" but rather a strength allowing for "genius." :-) ]


 * The point is, though Antarctica would be little changed, with only nomadic indiginous peoples, the course of civilization in northern Europe might be quite different without the struggle the northern peoples (Germanic and others) had during and after the "last" ice age. Likewise, Amerinds would be more likely to be migrations along the coasts by sea-faring Asians and Africans. Perhaps some Austailian and Malasians would also make it to both Antarctica and South America (to SA via Antarctica?).


 * Meanwhile, Europe would be more than likely civilized by ancient Greece much sooner, maybe even to the conquering of Roman forces in the east. There would have been fewer "Barbarians," though, and Rome may have much larger at the time of Greek expansion. Either way, Grecian culture (assimilated in OTL by the Romans), would prevail. The Nortic peoples may never have arisen, their being more temperate weather further north. If they had, they may have been the original inhabitants of the British Isles, which would not have had a land bridge due no late Ice Age. The Nordic peoples, then, would have sailed the seas, colonizing Britain, Greenland, and the American Northeast.


 * Goodness, I've created a whole new time line! Sorry to bother you with it. I'll be following what you do with colonizing a deglaciated Antarctica. [I had a thought that might help stay closer to OTL -- move the POD to a late Ice Age astroid strike that changes the climate of the southern hemisphere only. I am not sure of the physics, just a thought.] SouthWriter 17:45, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not only are you an expert on the South, you happen to be an expert on the Deep South ;3. I have ADD too, and I like the idea of an asteroid warming up the continent. But I still have some work to do with it. —NukeVac (Talk) 01:37, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * One thing I wonder is just how cold the capital of Bellsguanezia, Vostok, would be in TTL. The very high altitude, and the far southern lattitude would keep the city cold year around. One thing I found out in developing flight simulator AI traffic is that
 * the altitude in Vostok would be over 12,000 feet, making it very cold nearly the whole year round. When I put myself on the ground, in FS, at that point on the earth, the altitude is shown to be about 12,300 feet, which would make it the second highest capital
 * city in the world, second only to La Paz, Bolivia, which is around 13,000 feet. In OTL climate, FS real world weather often shows, at this time of the year, the temperature in Vostok to be -50 to -60 deg F, and I would imagine the TTL climate in Vostok would not
 * be very different Chilly8 02:34, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

Contest like thing, or whatever you would call it because I am not too sure


Greetings to anybody who is reading this. I wanted to try something different with TTL. I have made up only three nations on Antarctica, and I did that on purpose. I did this so others can make up their own nations on the continent. If you are interested, let me know and I will add it. If I add your nation, you have the liberty to expand, add, and develop the history for it.

I have made a base map so you can see how Antarctica will look in TTL. This is also so none of your nations are overlapping on mine. Hope this all works out. —NukeVac (Talk) 01:41, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all who have made contributions. I am making another rule for this "contest" to help clear things up. You need to create a subsection to this section ( === Section name === ) and describe your nation or idea in some detail. Secondly, please do not mention or create any joining history or mentioning of New Swabia, Ognia, or Bellinsgauzenia until I have their histories up. Though it hasn't been a problem as I can see, here is something I forgot to mention, please be courteous. Don't make a large nation out of what is free area, please save some for others who may want to play. Thank you all again. --NuclearVacuum 17:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed geographical sections



 * For what it's worth, this is the way I envision the opening up of the continent in the twentieth century. The line down the center divides the earth into Eastern and Western Hemispheres. The arrows point to the three oceans next to the major continents. West Antarctica is "south" of the Atlantic, under European (NATO) influence. The center of the continent is under the Pacific, and most probably under Australian and New Zealand (ANZUS) influence. On the other side of the central glacier-covered mountains are two sections essentially under the Indian Ocean. I figure it could be "divided" by South Africa and India, the two most populated areas closest to it. SouthWriter 14:30, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * What is this? Is it geographical or political? I don't understand. --NuclearVacuum 17:04, April 7, 2010
 * (UTC)

Actually, a little of both. I was making assumptions based on proximity to the oceas and who "controls" the oceans. However, I just came upon another map at the West Antarctica wikipedia article (that's Orgnia, TTL), It shows the historical claims to the Antactica. And basically it is according to proximity or who got there first from the northern Hemisphere. By the way, the area of New Swabia is called "Queen Maud Land" in OTL, and is claimed by Norway. It has "settlements" of Germany, South Africa, Russia, and Japan along the coast. SouthWriter 18:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like you said, you need to think about the whole timeline. Since the continent is habitable, more nations would fight for the continent. I don't believe that the Colonial powers (the UK, Russia, France) would do most of the claiming, while the colonies (Chile, Argentina, Australia) would get zip. Also, New Swabia is what evolved into TTL NS. --NuclearVacuum 19:46, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just read the article on New Swabia. It's scary to contemplate what a South Atlantic Base on the tundra might have meant to the German war effort. The more hospitable land would allowed for an airbase and then full scale attacks on South America, New Zealand and Autrailia. Depending on how strong the Russian defenses were on their side of the continent, the south Pacific may have been one of the German fronts as well. Of course, if they were fighting much in the southern hemisphere it might have reduced their effectiveness against Russia in the north. SouthWriter 21:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I believe the nation would have formed in the same period as OTL, and would be a pro-Nazi puppet state. Since it is such a new region, little could be done in the region, and little support could be helped by Germany with the beginning of WWII shortly after. One idea I thought about was that Argentina would take control of New Swabia after the surrender of Germany, but before the end of 1945. Juan Perón is an outspoken Hitler supporter, would allow the fascist nation to grow, while the Allies would keep them from expanding. Maybe in the 70s, movements would be made to give more democracy to the nation. --NuclearVacuum 21:08, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Dominion of Eduarda



 * How about a British country descended from a former colony. Mumby 14:41, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Berkner Island


Perhaps Berkner Island was used by the British as a prisoner colony (like Australia); and later a civilian colony was started, which eventually became this country. This would open up a non-Russian aspect of the Continent, and possibly mean a British presence in Antarctica in World War II. - Mister Sheen 18:14, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hm... interesting idea. --NuclearVacuum 19:56, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but actually, when I look at a map of Antarctica, Berkner Island is closer to Chile and Argentina. Perhaps it should be an ex-colony of one of those countries, or of Spain, instead of Britain. - Mister Sheen 20:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter. --NuclearVacuum 21:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, but I actually think the idea of an Argentine- or Chilean-owned island would be quite interesting. - Mister Sheen 22:36, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well one of the reasons I am allowing others to make up nations for this timeline is because I always make predictable decisions. So this is your nation, you may do what you wish with it. Feel free to make an article about. Have fun. --NuclearVacuum 23:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've started off an article: Santiago (Great White South). - Mister Sheen 19:48, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

A Scandinavian colony
I was thinking a good choice for a nation to colonize part of Antarctica would be either Denmark or Norway. I know Norway had the ability to travel this far south and currently owns Bouvet Island, Peter I Island, and Queen Maud Land in the Antarctic. But another part of me thinks Denmark would be better suited to colonizing this land given there experience with Greenland which would be very similar to Antarctica TTL. Anyways what do you think?--ShutUpNavi 16:57, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I think that's a great idea, and either Denmark or Norway would be good choices for this (though Sweden had the most powerful colonial empire in Scandinavia; that was actually before the Antarctic colonization in TTL). Both Denmark and Norway were invaded and occupied by Germany early in WWII, which would possibly complicate things with the German colony here. Also, in TTL, Santiago is the favourite destination for Norwegian-Antarctic immigrants, but I don't think any of that really matters. - Mister Sheen 17:21, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

The South Pole
Given that there are genuine countries on Antarctica in TTL, I think the South Pole would presumably have a designated neutral area around it, to prevent national borders getting too close. I think it would have to be, under international law, purely used as a research station; and a neutral place where, for example, Soviet and American scientists could work together peacefully.

It would probably have only a small population, and they would basically all live in the actual South Pole Station. Control of the area would likely belong to the Americans, like in OTL; or to the UN, as some kind of non-Country area (like all of Antarctica is in OTL). - Mister Sheen 10:39, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Contest ending and new direction
Hello all. I am so happy that there are so many interested in this timeline. Out of all the timelines I have started, this one is the most active.

Well anyway, I wanted to announce that I am ending the "create your own country" contest, as it has somewhat died down. I will add a "Scandinavian country" and a Neutral South Pole. The rest of Antarctica I think I will make the rest of the nations myself, but leave them completely open for others to adopt and work on as their own. But if there are any ideas that haven't been posted, yet... tick-tock tick-tock.

As for the new direction I have in mind, well... I am going to be opening this timeline to all those who want a piece. Meaning, I want this timeline to be much more active than it is now, and me just working on it by myself is no fun. So as of right now, this timeline is open for all ideas and opinions. Feel free to write, I know I will love it.

I also want to give KingSweden for his original idea on the. --NuclearVacuum 00:58, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well it's no surprise that this TL is so active, it's one of the best I've seen! Just wondering, though, is Antarctica going to be mostly colonial or independent? French and South American colonies seem likely; as well as Australian and New Zealand areas (though Bellinsgauzenia seems to have occupied the areas which Australia would likely colonize). Perhaps a joint Aus-NZ region on the coastline between Bellinsgauzenia and Ognia; and a French area between Eduarda and Bellinsgauzenia (based on the French control of Kerguelen, etc.); with the South Americans taking the regions around Santiago. That would leave the space between Ognia and the South Pole open for someone else; as well as the space between Eduarda and the South Pole.


 * ...But I'm rambling now. I doubt whether any of this makes sense, based on my current state of sleep-deprivation; and I'll try to be more understandable later. - Mister Sheen 21:45, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Antarctica would have all independent nations on it. Here is something you need to consider. Antarctica was discovered in 1820. The colonial powers at the time (primarily Russia since they made the discovery, but also France and the United Kingdom) would have the first dibs on the continent. The next in line would be Chile, Argentina, and the United States, but would be highly limited to free land there. Antarctica (as I predict) would be colonized and full by 1900-1910. Nations such as Australia and New Zealand (which recently gained their independence) would be out of luck when it comes to gaining colonies. Maybe statements would be formed by them, but I believe these nations would have very little to do with Antarctica. --NuclearVacuum 19:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * My thoughts behind Australia / New Zealand were that: the British colonize Australia, New Zealand, and parts of Antarctica. Certain parts of Antarctica are considered part of the Colony of Australia; and other parts belong to New Zealand. When Australia and New Zealand become independent, they still control their respective areas of Antarctica. - Mister Sheen 22:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Wars
Will there be any wars on Antarctica in TTL? It seems possible (with British, Argentines, Russians and Germans on the continent) for there to be an "Antarctic Front" to World War I (Britain & Russia vs. Germany), World War II (same as WWI), the Cold War (Britain vs. Russia), and/or the Falklands War (Britain vs. Argentina). I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I think having one or two wars on the Continent would be an interesting thing to try. - Mister Sheen 13:39, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have nothing against it what so ever. I am not much of a war creator, so what ever ideas you have in mind, put them on the table. --NuclearVacuum 19:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright then, based on the wars I suggested above: We can strike off WWI - given that New Swabia is only founded in 1939, there is no Central Power presence (unless Santiago or Ognia happen to join the Centrals); WWII seems much more likely - there are German, British and Russian bases, as well as a nearby Pacific Theatre. I think a small Antarctic Theatre of WWII is quite a good idea.


 * It seems almost impossible for the Cold War not to happen, in some form: there are HUGE Soviet (Bellinsgauzenia) and Capitalist (Eduarda) areas; and since Santiago will probably be a haven for Argentinian leftists, fleeing from Videla's "Dirty War", Santiago will likely be labeled a 'Communist' country, which would push them into an alliance with the USSR. I don't know who New Swabia will side with; but Ognia seems like it would be a pro-Capitalist country, given their bad history with the Russians.


 * As for the Falklands War, I actually don't think that would affect Santiago-Eduarda relations; and wouldn't become an issue in Antarctica. But perhaps more wars between Ognia and the other countries could happen. Anyway, I think some kind of Cold War-era conflict would be the largest, most likely, and most interesting conflict. - Mister Sheen 22:20, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

I really doubt that there would be a meaningful "front" in Antarctica during WWII. The settting is too remote, and sending forces or supplies would be detrimental to both sides. This is because there is no strategic sense sending troops and guns to a far-away colongy when there are legions of enemies next door.

Yankovic270 00:25, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * My thinking behind the Antarctica in WWII business was that it would be like a small-scale version of the East African Campaign (EAC): fighting would be done between colonies, using the resources they already had available. In the EAC, there were only about 10,000 Casualties, and the war lasted only until 1941 - likewise, I think that an Antarctica Campaign would have minor casualties, and wouldn't last particularly long (especially since New Swabia is going to declare itself independent and neutral, part-way through the war). But I think that there would certainly be one (however minor), given that Eduarda (British) and New Swabia (German) actually share a border. - Mister Sheen 10:01, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyhow, I've started off a World War I article: . You might want to fix it up/expand it, as I don't particularly know how Bellinsgauzenia or Eduarda will act. - Mister Sheen 17:40, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very nice idea indeed. I wanted to clear up some stuff if you don't mind. First off, I am considering making New Swabia form earlier instead of keeping it in sync with OTL. So potentially, Santiago may have an ally in Antarctica after all. Also, if I may make a small quote, "You're not thinking fourth dimensionally." (BTTF =P) Bellinsgauzenia was not a nation during WWI, it was a Russian colony. That's all I have to say for now. --NuclearVacuum 18:56, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Having New Swabia earlier on in history would be interesting, and would presumably lengthen the Antarctic war a fair amount; but since the Germans lose the war, and have all their Colonies taken away by the Allies, surely that would mean that New Swabia would no longer be a pro-Axis area in World War II? Oh, and just asking, how many countries do you think there will be in 1914? - Mister Sheen 22:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of something along the line of New Swabia becoming a British colony after WWI, but would become German once again with the rise of Nazi Germany. I believe New Swabia would remain neutral during WWII. As for the number of countries, I am not too sure yet. If no one else comes up with anything, I guess I will fill them up myself. So hold onto that question. --NuclearVacuum 04:25, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, New Swabia becoming German again could work; would that happen by a German invasion of the colony; or by a Rebellion against the British; or some other reason altogether? For the countries, I think that France would presumably have reached Antarctica by this time; and possibly some smaller Argentine, Chilean and Scandinavian settlements. - Mister Sheen 09:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Spanish Civil War, WWII and the Cold War
Basically, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on what Antarctica's nations would do during these Wars. I have a pretty good idea of how WWII is going to go (a brief "New Swabia vs. the World" kind of scenario; with minor help from the Vichy French Kerguelen); and as far as I can tell, there is no Communist presence on the Continent throughout the Cold War (though I'm not quite sure); so the Cold War would probably not directly affect Antarctica. As for the Spanish Civil War, I assume that no Nation is going to officially enter the war. However, I think some International Brigades would be created by Leftist and Rightist citizens of many nations.

Santiago is going to drift to the Left following WWI, and there will definitely be a Santiagan unit fighting for the Republicans. I think Bellinsgauzenia, as a supporter of the Russian White Movement, would probably send men to help the Nationalists; probably with some of the New Swabian Nazi independence fighters as well. The British, Commonwealth, American, Norwegian and French areas would probably have radicals from both sides; and would send men to help both the Nationalists and the Republicans. I doubt that Ognia would get involved at all. - Mister Sheen 11:46, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

New Swabia
When is someone going to get to creating an article for New Swabia?

Yankovic270 00:52, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

First off let me say that this is a unique and interesting timeline. However I have to question the plausibility of New Swabia. I doubt that the Germans would have enough time to establish this colony, or anything other than a small military base in the time mentioned here. 5 years or less is not enough time to start any kind of permanent settlement, let alone one big enough to become its own country. Further more it seems weird that a democratic country would still use fascist symbols.

I still think this page might be able to work. My suggestion is that New Swabia or a similar country is established sometime during the German Colonial Empire. This would give it more time to be established. It could also give us a longer history section, concerning what happened in the colonial era and during WWI and its aftermath. Later on it could ally itself with Germany during WWII. Anyways is anyone interested in my idea?--ShutUpNavi 02:30, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like the idea. I am not much of a German historian, but a Russian historian. If you have any interest in working on New Swabia, you can if you want. —NuclearVacuum 19:45, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank You. When I get the chance I think I will take you up on that offer.--ShutUpNavi 20:16, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

New Swabian war
I'm going to write a page on a war between New Swabia and Maudland as part of New Swabia's transistion to democracy. I was wondering if anyone thinks other nations (Either within or outside Antarctic) would get involvedVegas adict 19:14, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Norway's a NATO member, so any other NATO member might send support; and Maudland has a close alliance with Santiago, as well. But I don't think there would be very much support from outside Antarctica, though (except for mainland Norway, of course).
 * The majority of the troops would still be Maudlandic and Norwegian, but every Antarctic nation, except Bellinsgauzenia, might possibly provide support. It's up to you which ones do and which ones don't, though. - Mister Sheen 16:09, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Blank map is here


Good news everybody. I have created a vector image showing all the nations of Antarctica. It's quite easy to use. You can use it by using Inkscape or a word processor. --NuclearVacuum 21:44, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've put together an Orthographic blank map, too. - Mister Sheen 11:09, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, guys. I put a section on the map pages about how to get around using compass headings in Antarctica. The "blank map" here (and the ones filled in the articles) are oriented along the meridian-antimeridian line (north-south) and the 90 degrees E & W (east-west) line. This is the orientation being used in the articles, but I felt the clarification might be good for those occasional readers that will be visiting this month due to the "Featured" status. Keep up the good work. SouthWriter 19:28, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, guys. I put a section on the map pages about how to get around using compass headings in Antarctica. The "blank map" here (and the ones filled in the articles) are oriented along the meridian-antimeridian line (north-south) and the 90 degrees E & W (east-west) line. This is the orientation being used in the articles, but I felt the clarification might be good for those occasional readers that will be visiting this month due to the "Featured" status. Keep up the good work. SouthWriter 19:28, September 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, South, the compass points on a South Pole-oriented map have been bugging me for a while. East and West are still there, defined by the Greenwich Meridian / International Date Line; but everything outwards is North, and everything inwards is South. I was considering using "Upper Antarctica" and "Lower Antarctica", but it wouldn't exactly work (eg. "New Swabia is west of Eduarda and further up than Maudland"). - Mister Sheen 21:08, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Whatss?
sorry, i not read complety the tl, aniway, i am working in spanish althistory, i cant help you here now, but have fun bro--Fero 23:17, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * but you need do a version of wikipedia:climate to this TL because is deep relevant
 * temperature, ¿how cold or/and hot is there? is like alaska? like siberia? like iceland? iceland is in a more ecuatorial geografic position, fot this is more hot.
 * is your antartic continent in the same geografic position that in real world souther of 60ºS? I think if Plate tectonics move in the right way and Antartic end more "near" southafrica, them history change, them human life can go to antartic, current antartic is almost sow human habitable like moon
 * you say antartic colonization start in 1900, ¿spanish empire do nothing there? i see your argentine chilean aportation in ther but spain should be around in there in that time, i think


 * Well if you read the timeline, it does answer several of your questions. The temperature is much like Siberia and or Alaska. Antarctica is in the same geological position as in OTL. The POD in this timeline is an unknown event like an asteroid/comet impact or a volcanic eruption caused the southern hemisphere to warm up more, allowing Antarctica to go through longer periods of being ice-free (much like North America and Europe). Antarctic colonization started in the mid to late 19th century (the 1800s). Since a Russian explorer discovered the continent, Russia would have much more claim and knowledge of Antarctica. I personally know very little about the Spanish Empire, but if you would like to make some contributions, feel free to (this timeline is open to all). --NuclearVacuum 15:32, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Byrdia
I am thinking of expanding this article, but I have to know, why is it called Byrdia? Mitro 14:56, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Richard Byrd, American Antarctic Explorer, if I'm not mistaken; though John Davis and Nathaniel Palmer were also Americans, and they each beat Byrd to Antarctica by over a century. - Mister Sheen 15:11, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, is there any other information I should know about Byrdia? I have recently expanded the article and I tried to incorporate everything that was canon. [EDIT] Speaking of Byrd, he did not even travel to Antarctica in OTL until 1928, six years after Byrdia was named after him in this ATL. Seems a little weird. Mitro 15:20, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, that really doesn't make sense. The Timeline should probably change. Anyway, I always thought that an American Antarctic colony would likely be named "Jefferson", or "Franklin's Land", or after another Founding Father. But to be honest, there isn't much set down about Byrdia; except that it used to be Russian, so there is an element of Russian culture there; and there will presumably a small Russian-speaking segment of the population. - Mister Sheen 15:32, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Instead of going and changing everything in the TL, maybe we can come up with a better solution that requires less editing. How about this: the territory was actually called "West Antarctica" or "American Antarctica" and Byrd was the first governor-general, who pushed for major colonization in the area. After his term ended, the territory was renamed Byrdia in his honor. Thoughts? Mitro 15:52, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well technically, I named the region Byrdia after Marie Byrd Land, and I wasn't the one who decided to make it an American colony either. But as I said earlier, I wanted others to have fun with it. So technically, if you have interest in renaming or changing the region from what I originally wrote down, I have nothing against it at all. --NuclearVacuum 15:05, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing I changed was having the territory originally being called the "Territory of Western Antarctica" and than having it be renamed Byrdia after Byrd's term as Governor-General ended. Other than that I tried keeping the article within canon, but if you have any ideas about the rest of the history I would be glad to hear it. Right now I think the Russians will eventually stop being a marginalized class either in the 60s or 70s. Byrdia will also vote for independence in the 80s and sign a free association compact with the US similar to Micronesia. I was also toying with a "Green Revolution" after the news of the ozone hole being reported. Essentially a new green political party will win a majority in Byrdia. Mitro 02:48, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

When I first started working on the Byrdia article, it was written in the infobox that Spanish was a major language of the nation (not official, but spoken enough to get referenced in the profile). Now that I have flushed out the article more I can't figure out how this is possible. I know they share a border with Santiago, but I can't figure out a good reason why there would be so many Spanish speakers in Byrdia. Thoughts? Mitro 15:01, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, there doesn't seem to be any way that Hispanophones would be very prominent at all. Hispanics might have arrived through the US, but even then, most of them would probably speak English. In fact, I can't see Spanish being realistically spoken anywhere except Santiago. - Mister Sheen 15:53, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Template
I have created a proposed template for the TL. Feel free to edit it. Mitro 19:34, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ooh, I like it. Sorry, but I have been busy lately and haven't had much time to be creative here. So forgive me if I am sounding rushed. --NuclearVacuum 15:06, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

September
Hey guys, my random selector picked Great White South to be featured for the month of September on the main page. Here is what I wrote up to appear on the main page. Please feel free to edit it if you want. Mitro 17:00, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very nice. I am still flabbergasted that one of my random timeliness would have becomes as popular as GWS. --NuclearVacuum 17:50, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well according to Wikia its September, that means this TL is now featured on the main page. Mitro 01:24, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Sport
I'm thinking about a "Sport in Antarctica" article. Cricket and Rugby would probably become popular in the British areas; and Baseball and American Football would be the major sports in Byrdia. I think Soccer would be universal to the Continent (as it is to most Continents); and Ice Hockey would be very popular, too.

Soccer would be popular, but I don't think any Antarctican country would host a world cup. FIFA likes to have world cup in June or July, would would put it in the coldest part of the Antarctic winter. A World Cup in Antarctica would have to be at another time of the year, which throw

the schedules of the rest of the various world leagues off. I think a world cup in Antarctica would likely be in January or February. Chilly8 00:01, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

And of course, non-team sports like Golf, Tennis and Running are practised in basically every country in the World, so why would Antarctica be any different? - Mister Sheen 11:10, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote something in the news feed about curling being popular. Mitro 13:46, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, I completely overlooked pretty much all of the Winter Sports, which would definitely be the staple passtimes of Antarctica. - Mister Sheen 14:13, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

What about figure skating on the continent? With Bellinsguanezia being a former Russian colony, I could see figure skating taking hold on the continent. I could see Bellinsguanezia and New Schawvia becoming figure skating powers on the continent. Chilly8 00:09, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

As far as skating goes, I could see a couple of top OTL Russian coaches, going to Bellinguanezia and coaching there after the fall of the USSR, and several Russian skaters, including Oksana Baiul, emigrating there and skating for there. 69.12.224.40 07:55, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

I have one idea for sport in Anarctica. Make this year's Commonwealth Games in Eduarda. I chose Eduarda, becuase the time zone I assigned it, in creating FlightSim AI traffic, with the DST offset for summer, puts it only 1/2 hour behind India. Cookstown would be at GMT+5, while Delhi, site of the OTL Commonweath Games, is at GMT+5.5. I am thinking of posting items in the latest news section just as if the Games were being held in Cookstown, Eduarda. Chilly8 19:40, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Can I suggest that the Olympic flag would have an extra ring to symbolise Antarctica? Fegaxeyl 15:08, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ognian names for Byrdia
I am trying to come up with some Ognian geographic names for the subdivisions of Byrdia. Any suggestions? Mitro 17:56, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * There isn't much of a constructed language so far, but the articles "" and "" give some examples of Ognian placenames, and you can basically use that as a base, and invent the rest. The suffix "-ar" seems to mean "region", so Byrdian States with Ognian names might end "-ar".
 * I think there should be some English language placenames as well as the Ognian ones (and possibly a few Russian ones), though. - Mister Sheen 16:09, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

It was implyed that after the territory that soon would become known as Byrdia was created, the vast majority (if not all) place names were "Americanized". There could be a few places that were recently Onianized and Russianized.

Yankovic270 17:52, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

End to the Ross Dependency?
Hello all. I have been doing some thinking and I wanted to place it on the table before anything goes. Anyway, I have been doing some thinking about the Ross Dependency here on GWS. I am going to say it, I personally don't like the idea anymore, and was thinking about ending it with a party, so to speak. I am thinking about dissolving it into maybe into thee nations. Here is my idea.


 * 1) Ross Island, Scott Island, and the Balleny Islands would remain in the Realm of New Zealand. Maybe as their own nations (much like Niue) or as a federation of islands.
 * 2) The mainland would be annexed by Bellinsgauzenia (since it was historically Russian).

I am not suggesting that this be historic, but rather taking place in the now. I have mentioned on the page that the mainland of the Ross Dependency was under similar unrest that New Devon faced by pro-Bellinsgauzenian forces. But what do you all think of the idea? --NuclearVacuum 00:52, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind, really. Though it seems like the kind of thing which would have happened 10 or 20 years ago, it would be good to finally have a current event in this Timeline. I like the idea of Bellinsgauzenia annexing further Russian areas; and the idea of a New Zealander island nation.
 * Just one question: if New Zealand has governed an area as large as Rossland for almost 100 years, there are going to be quite a few Kiwis in the area - what happens to them? Perhaps New Zealand could retain a single, small port; so it has more access to the Antarctic mainland, and so there is a place for the New Zealand—Antarcticans to move to.
 * That would certainly sweeten the deal, from New Zealand's perspective. - Mister Sheen 16:09, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hm... I think I have an interesting idea. Bellinsgauzenia has no real beef with New Zealand, the RCA (pro-Bellinsgauzenian terrorist group) does. I am thinking that maybe Bellinsgauzenia would allow a temporary period for the New Zealander settlements to remain under New Zealand occupation, but I am sure Bellinsgauzenia would feel welcome to new immigrants. I need to make a section on it, but I predict Bellinsgauzenia to be a nation of mixed cultures (much like the US). Russian-speaking black people and so on (I am not politically correct). But what would come of the three islands? Maybe I should leave that open for more debate here. What sounds better, three new nations, or one federal nation. --NuclearVacuum 17:15, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean Bellinsgauzenia would be opposed to having New Zealanders living there; I just thought that some New Zealanders (probably the majority of them) would prefer to keep their citizenship. They wouldn't be able to out-vote the Russians, but they might have some kind of impact - though on the mainland, in the long run, I doubt that New Zealand could ever keep control of more than one or two individual towns.
 * As for the islands, the Balleny Islands have been New Zealand's since the 1800s - in fact, they would probably remain a separate Dependency from Rossland, throughout their history. Ross island might become a continuation of the Ross Dependency (along with any mainland areas which New Zealand possibly keeps). Scott island could join either of the others, or become its own Dependency. - Mister Sheen 17:58, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * If Bellinsgauzenia is expanding into former Russian territory, what will this mean for the Russian minority living in Byrdia, and Byrdia-Bellinsgauzenia relations? Mitro 21:43, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Byrdia has anything to worry about. One of the reasons that Bellinsgauzenia was able to gain the region is because of its geography. The region is located within the Transanatarctic Mountains, plus the region would be close to the south pole. Though New Zealand settlements would have been formed in the region, most of the infrastructure is located on the islands. There wouldn't have been enough resources to allow the total anglanization of the region, so it would be very easy for it to become Bellinsgauzenia. Also, Bellinsgauzenia doesn't have any real grudge against Byrida, and I think the two nations would have a good relationship. I have been meaning to write about it, but I see Bellinsgauzenia as being a US supporter during the Cold War. I think the Bellinsgauzenian-Byrdian relationship is pretty favorable, despite Byrdia once being Russian territory. --NuclearVacuum 01:34, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Time Zones
After considering how to get around on the continent, I got to thinking of the timestamps on News Reports. Just what time is it on the bottom of the world? (FYI - The South Pole is an NZST, New Zealand time)

Anyway to the right is the map for the time zones in OTL. I suppose they'd be the same in TTL. Of course, with most of the continent being inside the antarctic circle, summers (October - February) would be mostly daylight and winters (May - August) would be mostly night. One can only wonder if this might cause interesting social problems (irregularities) might arise in a society of like this (study Iceland, and Alaska for clues). SouthWriter 03:16, September 5, 2010 (UTC)

At least one Antarctic country, Ognia, would cover more than one time zone. Ognia, itself, would cover 3 time zones, because of where all its territory is. The way I figure it, Stanley, in the Falkland Islands would be two hours ahead of the national capital in Qouar. and some other islands to the east of that would be another hour east of that.

Santiago would be UTC-3 in the winter, then go to UTC-2 from October to April for daylight savings time. As I create flight simulator AI traffic and schedules with Ultimate Traffic, that is the time zone I have assigned to the country of Santiago. Chilly8 00:00, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Daylight Savings Time???? Excuse me, but this is inside the Antarctic circle!! Their summer would already have incredibly long days anyway. From what I can tell, the time zones are based on the "time back home" in OTL. In TTL much of the same phenomenon might apply at first. However, to be fair to the citizenry each nation in TTL would probably elect to go with one time zone (probably the center one of three) for simplicity's sake, just as Chilly8 has done. By the way, Chil, can you take the ice away using the simulator? --SouthWriter 02:37, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well, as I create AI traffic and schedules in Flight Simulator and Ultimate Traffic, I have assigned DST for October through April for airports in Ognia and and Santiago, but not in any of the other Antarctic countries. I have those two countries on DST during summer, because parts of those countries are above the Antarctic circle. OTL Alaska, Russia, and Scanindiavia use DST. Chilly8 06:19, September 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looking at these atlases (even though they don't show all of Antarctica), the Antarctic Circle covers almost the entire Continent, except for a small portion of Ognia; so I don't think Daylight Savings would be an issue. - Mister Sheen 08:47, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the maps, Sheen, they made my point. Chilly, the reason Alaska, Russia, and Scandinavia use DST is because the majority of those political entities are below the Arctic circle. With Alaska it is dealing with what would be literally three time zones (45 degrees in longitude) chosing one to share with Hawaii far to the south. Russia, as I understand it, is on DST all year long (being two hours ahead in the summer!). The nations known as Scandanavia all belong to the EU and thus by law observe DST.
 * In TTL, Ognia reaches out to the tip of Chile and the Falklands, but the bulk of the nation is inside the Antarctic circle. Santiago is totally inside the circle. Being independent, for the most part, of other nations, It follows that the nations would only use DST if it were to their advantage. With 24 hour a day light in their summer (Oct. thru Apr.), their is no "Daylight" to save. Farmers and others industries would have to be held by law from working folk TOO long, not allowing more hours to do the work. SouthWriter 20:03, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thinking that perhaps the nations of the continent might wish to operate in regular time zones of their own, I devised this proposed time zone map. It is based on the time zone that "disects a nation or region of a nation. Each meridian shown represents two hours on a twenty-four hour "day."
 * Thinking that perhaps the nations of the continent might wish to operate in regular time zones of their own, I devised this proposed time zone map. It is based on the time zone that "disects a nation or region of a nation. Each meridian shown represents two hours on a twenty-four hour "day."
 * Thinking that perhaps the nations of the continent might wish to operate in regular time zones of their own, I devised this proposed time zone map. It is based on the time zone that "disects a nation or region of a nation. Each meridian shown represents two hours on a twenty-four hour "day."
 * Thinking that perhaps the nations of the continent might wish to operate in regular time zones of their own, I devised this proposed time zone map. It is based on the time zone that "disects a nation or region of a nation. Each meridian shown represents two hours on a twenty-four hour "day."
 * Thinking that perhaps the nations of the continent might wish to operate in regular time zones of their own, I devised this proposed time zone map. It is based on the time zone that "disects a nation or region of a nation. Each meridian shown represents two hours on a twenty-four hour "day."

Nature of the event causing the divergence
One possibility:

A suitably located volcano erupts, and sets off the meltdown and/or contributes to the creation of a hole in the ozone layer. Then a comet in a peculiar orbit interacts with the magnetosphere and part gets sucked down towards Antarctica.

How feasible is 'any or all of this'? Jackiespeel 18:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm no astrophysicist, but I don't think the earth's magnetosphere "sucks" astroids out of orbit. A super volcano, though, would have about the same affect as a large astroid impact and the residual volcanic activity on the continent would help to keep the surface relatively ice free. I'd say the volcano was not just "suitably placed," but huge! Look up Yellowstone National Park to read about the effects of a supervolcano. All you need now is an international study in TTL that finds evidence of this dormant volcano (perhaps even "over due" for eruption like Yellowstone is today. SouthWriter 21:12, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

There is one possibillity, the Taupo supervolcano in New Zealand. It is a supervolcano that is far enough south to affect Antarctica. It had its last VEI8 level eruption about 26,000 years ago. It is possible that Taupo could, in this AH, have affected Antarctica, perhaps increasing atmospherioc CO2 enough in the southern hemisphere to warm it up enough for the antarctic ice sheets to melt. Chilly8 01:58, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was 'comet in an Earth-hitting trajectory' (and material entering the Earth's atmospheric and above systems). What effect would a large solar flare have (like the one in the 19th century OTL which disrupted the telegraph system etc)?

Basically - what possible combinations of natural phemomena would there be which would trigger Antarctic meltdown? Jackiespeel 21:35, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

A lot of this timeline could have happened. I read that some people think that Antarctica may have been pretty much ice free until as recently as 4,000 years ago. Could TTL have been reality had Antarctica continued to remain pretty much ice free? It does make one think

176.67.85.1 23:46, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Where did you hear this? I read that Antarctica's last period of being ice-free was thousands upon thousands of years ago. I am curious, where did you hear this? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:25, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

I was watching a TV show speculating about the Clovis comet impact possibily ending the last ice age. So in this timeline, we could have the possibility of a similar impact event happening in Antarctica and melting all the ice eithier via direct impact, or by all the dust falling out on the ice, changing its albedo and causing it all to melt.

Chilly8 09:18, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

...That theory about the Clovis comet has been immensely discredited, with good reason. It never happened.

Don't believe everything you see on TV. There is a lot of shows airing on channels that should be airing facts, like the science, discovery, and history channels, that are nothing of the sort.

Lordganon (talk) 18:35, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

It is just a unprovable theory, as they say, and according to Chilly8, the program was speculating about it in the first place. I am not sure about proclaiming that a particular thing in the far past "never happened," either. One would have to look at the evidence to make a guess as to what might have happened. And then, it is but a guess. As for cable TV, I can't say one way or the other, since I don't watch those channels. However, both science and history are subjective in and of themselves. Discovery, taken literally, would be based more on facts in some context and be quite a bit more subjective.

As for this time line, it is labeled "ASB - Environmental" because it depends upon rather big events that did not happen in our time line. For plausibility, time lines need to based on things that could have easily (more or less) have happened different than they did. That being said, it is a great time line! SouthWriter (talk) 19:49, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

It's actually pretty provable. The theory is based around "evidence" found in the Americas, which has nothing to do with meteors - it is based around "black mats," and nanodiamonds. No one, in decades, has been able to replicate their results. Yet experiments have shown in multiple locations, many times, that these finds were inaccurate - and those have been replicated numerous times.

The mats have been shown to have been something that has occurred inside the remnants of prehistoric swamps for millennia all over the world. This has been found a many, many sites.

The nanodiamonds, upon study, were found to be insect eggs. No more of these have been found.

And, of course, you have all of the evidence that nothing of the sort ever happened, such as no population decline, no continental wildfires, no simultaneous extinctions, no materials associated with an impact have ever been found... the list goes on.

South, Chilly may have said that the show was speculating, but he was treating it as fact - and it isn't anywhere close to that.

Be glad some days that you don't watch cable, South - there are days that "educational" channels devote almost all of their airtime to specials on such things as "how aliens built the pyramids." Disturbing, really.

Lordganon (talk) 04:41, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

One ohter possibility to put into this TL is magmatic hotspot melting the ice at a faster rate. They have just discovered a magmatic hotspot under Greenland they say is melting the ice faster than expected. So such a magmatic hotspot under Antarctica causing a meltdown of antarctic ice is not out of the realm of possibility.

Chilly8 (talk) 01:43, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

...More like it's on the edge of the island, and is causing the ice sheet to slide into the ocean faster - not quickening the melt.

Another hotspot existing, or eruption happening, may well have global consequences.

Really, the ice just doesn't get quite as big. All you need is a slight change in ocean currents down there, which has virtually no effect on the rest of the world, and it warms fine.

Lordganon (talk) 03:40, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Rivers
Looking at the map, I can't help but wonder how many rivers Antarctica has? Mitro 01:25, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the map, Mitro. Note that some of the rivers go below sea level. Most of the rivers would only flow in the "summer" (winter in northern hemisphere) with all day sunlight and few clouds. It would probably be good for agriculture along the coasts. SouthWriter 15:49, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Airlines
One thing I have been doing in flight simulator is creating AI traffic and schedules as if some of these. I have thought of what airlines might serve the various Antarctic countries. I have already created AI traffic for an "Air Ognia", after figuring out where the various cities would be. For Kerguellen Island, I merely extended the Air France Paris-Antananarivo-Reunion run down to Kerguellen Island. For my "Air Ognia", I created a London-Cape Verde-Stanley run (being that the Falklands are part of Ognia in this TTL). I have a Las Estrellas-Santiago-Los Angeles run as well, on my Air Ognia

I think it we should somehow put it ino this AH what airlines would serve Antarctic cities. Airlines I could see, besides my Air Ognia, serving Antarctic cities would include


 * Air France
 * Qantas
 * Aeroflot
 * LanChile
 * Lufthansa
 * Scadinvavian
 * Aerolineas Argentinas
 * Cubana
 * Air New Zealand
 * AeroMexico
 * Varig
 * South African Airways

Chilly8 23:49, September 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all, nice work! Why don't you create an "Air Travel in Antarctica (Great White South)" page?
 * I think other Antarctic Nations besides Ognia would have local Airlines, particularly Bellinsgauzenia, Byrdia, Eduarda and New Devon.
 * And there would probably be a tiny Kerguelen 'airline', which just runs flights from Kerguelen to airstrips on the smaller French islands nearby (ie. Crozet, Amsterdam Island, Saint-Paul, and the Scattered Isles). - Mister Sheen 08:58, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to work on flight simulator AI traffic, before creating an Air Travel in Antarctica page but I have come up with one idea for an airline. I think an "Air Antarctica", which serve several countries, much like Scandinavian in Europe, Gulf Air in the Mideast, or Taca in Central America, could servce all the Anatarctican countries. Chilly8 03:06, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to work on flight simulator AI traffic, before creating an Air Travel in Antarctica page but I have come up with one idea for an airline. I think an "Air Antarctica", which serve several countries, much like Scandinavian in Europe, Gulf Air in the Mideast, or Taca in Central America, could servce all the Anatarctican countries. Chilly8 03:06, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Couldn't there be a branch of Luftansa operating out of New Swabia? - Yankovic270 01:41, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is one thing I am looking at in building AI traffic. I am considering putting in a Lufthansa line between Frankfurt and New Swabia, with a refuel step in the Cape Verde Islands. A 747-400 would have just enough range to make it to Cape Verde from New Swabia, making Sal Island the ideal refuel stop on flights between Germany and New Swabia. - Chilly8

Wouldn't continental Africa be the ideal route between Europe and Antarctica? - Mister Sheen 15:26, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

It depends on the route. For example, From Copenhagen, the main SAS hub, to Maudland, it would make sense to refuel in Cape Verde. For some routes, it would make more sense to go through Africa. I took the Air France Paris-Madagascar-Reunion route, and extended it first to the Kerguellen Islands, and then on to Bellinsguaezenia. I also have a route from Johannesburg, South Africa to Cookstown, Eduarda. I basically resurrected an old SAA route that does not exist anymore, the Houston-Sal-Johannesburg run, and extended that to Eduarda, so in TTL, people wishing to fly direct from the USA to Maudland would depart from GW Bush Intercontinental in Houston.

However, with where New Swabia is, and where Germany is, it would probably make more sense for a Lufthansa route from Frankfurt to New Swabia to refuel at Cape Verde.

As for flights from the USA to Maudland, I have created a Miami--Ny Oslo and a JFK-Cape Verde-Oslo route using an SAS 747-400. In OTL SAS got rid of those years ago, but I think in this TL, they would still have them for flights from the USA to Maudland. For west coast flights to Mauland, I am looking at an LAX-Cape Verde-Ny Oslo run. 69.12.224.40 07:52, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

One idea I have is expanding on my Air Ognia idea, and create an Air Antarctica, a multinational airline much like OTL Gulf Air, or Scandinavian, funded by the governments of several countries, which could have a major flight network in Antarctica and serve more of the world. SUch an airline could serve Antarctica well.

Also, I think in TTL, that Australia might well have been colonised by more than one country, similar to what you see the division of Australia in Newfoundlantis. I am assuming that part would have happened this TTL, and I creating AI traffic fo make Qantas a multinational airline, serving all the nations on the Australian continent, and routes to Antarctica Chilly8 03:51, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * is pretty much the same, as it was already consolidated British land before Antarctica was discovered (in 1820). - Mister Sheen 17:57, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Wildlife and Plants of Antarctica
A comment about Penguins on the Nations talk page got me thinking, how does the change to Antarctica's climate affect the native wildlife of the continent? Did some animals evolve differently in this ATL? Furthermore are there any native plants that can only be found on Antarctica? Mitro 15:32, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * What does Alaska have to do with Antarctica? (LOLZ) But I am not too sure. I do picture Antarctica to have a lush evergreen forest, but that is all I came up with so far. --NuclearVacuum 16:00, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow what the hell was I smoking. Sorry about that, I corrected it. Anyway, we have assumed so far that the wildlife on the continent is the same as OTL, but Penguins are probably going to look alot different if their natural habitat includes a lush evergreen forest. Maybe we should be looking at how Greenland looked during Viking times for inspiration. Mitro 20:10, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the north is like New Zealand. VENEZUELA 20:15, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Greenland looked different when the vikings landed there? How so, because I have never head anything like that. I have been doing some interesting thinking, and maybe some different species would have evolved on Antarctica. I can't really say what species would have evolved or whether any extinct species would have continued because of an ice-free Antarctica, but lets have fun with it. --NuclearVacuum 20:34, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * O yes, Greenland actually was a lot less icy when the Viking arrived in the 10th century. There was grass, brush and birch trees. Than the Little Ice Age hit and the Viking colonies failed. Mitro 20:45, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw it on THC, they said that it also haved ants. VENEZUELA 20:51, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Now you're telling me Greenland has no ants? Now I am living in a box. But seriously, that is quite interesting. One thing I though about is that maybe the dodo could still exist in this timeline, since the lived not too far from Antarctica to begin with. Maybe a nice large landmass would be just what they needed. Not too sure, just something I thought about in five minutes. --NuclearVacuum 02:29, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Here is a list of some extint plant and animal life that once inhabited Antarctica. Maybe if there was a warmer continent, they might have present-time cousins in this ATL:
 * Glossopteris
 * Dicroidium
 * Lystrosaurus

We should also wonder whether the penguin might be larger and even have feathers like their ancient ancestors. Mitro 23:12, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is another link: Mitro 23:21, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * OMFG!!!!! GATORFERRET? Seriously, I love that. That would make a pretty interesting animal for this timeline. But one question. I made Antarctica become ice-free after the last ice age. Would have Antarctica been stable enough prior to this to allow species such as the four you proposed to survive? Wasn't Antarctica ice-covered before how it is in OTL? --NuclearVacuum 14:54, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, your right. Maybe I am approaching this wrong.  We should probably see what animals would be brought from Tierra del Fuego and what animals later colonizers brought.  Mitro 18:10, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Short-lived Antarctic colonies
I presume that France and Spain (and possibly the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Portugal, and perhaps even Japan or China) would try some kind of colonization of Antarctica. Given the current geopolitics, all of these colonies would have failed or been conquered by the British/Russians/Norwegians/Germans early on, but we should still write about them, from a historical perspective. - Mister Sheen 18:03, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: I made a map with some ideas. The British and Russian areas are where I assume their claims would have begun (Eduarda and Bellinsgauzenia). The "Antarctic Great Lakes" in Bellinsgauzenia would allow the Russians to move inland quickly.
 * The Spanish Antarctic areas would have been colonized from South America, but would be ceded to Britain after a few years (probably during the 1820s-1840s).
 * The French areas would be close to, but would probably be abandoned early, due to a lack of supplies or something (I also have an idea for a French remnant community in ).
 * The Dutch areas seem the least likely, but since the Dutch were the first Empire to properly explore the area (the Southern Indian, Atlantic and Pacific Oceans), I thought they might have some kind of Antarctic claim. The Dutch would probably abandon their colony to the Russians between roughly the 1840s-1850s.
 * Finally, the concession system (like in Hong Kong and Macau, for example) might be used by the Danish and Portuguese to get a tiny foothold on the continent. I don't have any ideas for the Chinese or Japanese (East Asian history is one of my weaknesses), but it might be possible. - Mister Sheen 19:23, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting idea. But one correction, Russia first landed on Antarctica around Alexander I Island, so I think the Russians would have also had a colony beginning there. So maybe Spain would have left the island alone, or it would have been shared by the two for a short time. Also, "Antarctic Great Lakes." I love that. --NuclearVacuum 14:56, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Both Britain and Russia landed on the Antarctic Peninsula first, but I gave it to spain for four main reasons:
 * The fact that it was first discovered doesn't mean it would be first colonized. Russian ships have a hell of a journey to get to the Peninsula, but if they went via the Pacific, they would have an easy route to the "Great Lakes" (I thought it sounded cool, too :P ) area.
 * Despite the Russian/British explorers arriving first, the Spanish have the most obvious base of operations for a colony - South America (though I'll have to double-check the dates of the South American Wars of Independence). Even though the Spanish were a weak Empire by that time, they were by no means finished.
 * Britain controlled Grahamland in TTL (even before the Russian Civil War). I don't see how a Russian colony, miles from any British areas, could somehow end up being controlled by Britain. Unless you were thinking of an Antarctic Front of the Crimean War, where Britain might take control of some Russian land.
 * Bellinsgauzenia was the 'epicenter' of Russian Antarctica, whereas Ognia and Byrdia were frontier regions. The colonists would likely start in modern-day Bellinsgauzenia, and gradually move Westward, towards Ognia and Byrdia.
 * I assumed Spain would only control the area for a short while, and cede it to Britain after a few years. Britain and Spain didn't fight any wars during that time period, but Spain might simply sell the area.
 * One other idea - French Antarctica is in the Virgin Country (where there were no ). The French were famous for getting on well with Natives (French and Indian War, anyone?), so perhaps their colony would fail without any helpful Indigenous peoples in the area, and they recieved insufficient supplies. - Mister Sheen 16:49, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, my mistake. Discard what I said. --NuclearVacuum 18:05, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

New Vestfold
Hi all. I hope nobody minds that I have been adding a bit to New Vestfold. I really like this timeline and as an Australian I would like to help out on New Vestfold. I can be creative and have already made a few pages, (e.g. ). I'm pretty creative and like suggestions and help from anyone and everyone, and would like to help you all make this timeline as good as possible. UnitedPacific 08:20, November 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I sure don't mind. Its good to know New Vestfold has a caretaker.  Mitro 14:31, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Trans Antarctica Highway Network
There is the possibility of a trans continental highway network in Antarctica, much like the Euroepan E road system, the Trans African Highway, or Asian Highway networks.

I could envision a network of modern superhighways all over the continent, linking up with the with a automobile ferry betwen Ushaia, and the northern tip of the Palmer Peninsula to connect with the Pan American Highway.

I think that such a network of highways would be viable in this TL.

Chilly8 22:18, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Its certainly a usefull idea but i'm not sure that the conditions allow it to be posible (The Snow)--Vegas adict 22:30, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

As a Canadian I can say that it's definitely plausible. In both Northern Canada and Alaska, well above the Arctic circle, there are full-fledged highways. Just got to do a lot more plowing. Lordganon 22:48, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Otto Dietrich
i just remembered where i got this name from, he was the Nazi Press Secutary. Do you guys think he could have survived longer if he escaped to New Swabia and have eventualy become the leader of the NSLP or should i change his name?--Vegas adict 22:30, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations Everyone!
For all of your hard work, Great White South has been voted the winner of the 2011 Stirling Award for the Best Timeline made in 2010. Your creativity and dedication have been recognized by the community and so I am proud to present this timeline with the award to the right. It does not belong to any one individual, but to all of you. However, special recognition goes to Nuclear Vacuum as its creator. As a group you may decide how to display the award.

South Africa as an ally of New Swabia
Does anyone noticed that since New Swabia could have covert support from the Apartheid regime of South Africa. Is anyone agreeing at my suggestion?

General tiu 06:55, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * That sounds quite interesting. Sorry for the long delay. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:49, June 9, 2011 (UTC)

Oil... in my Antarctica?
Greetings my fellow Antarcticans. I am back and quite exited. Well actually I never left... you get the idea. Anyway, I have been doing a long to reading, searching, drawing, and sketching, and I am going to reveal that I have some big events coming this summer for the Great White South. I am working on a brand-spankin' new map and atlas for Antarctica, showing some new changes I have in mind. Nothing drastic, but more accurate with the map on the main page (rather than my original map that combined that particular map and the modern map of Antarctica). The only real change will be that Alexander Island (part of ) will no longer be an island, but part of the mainland. I am also working on a river map, and a climate map for Antarctica (so as to get a much better idea on the region).

Other things that will be taking shape will be my three Antarctic countries will be getting a makeover (so to speak). Don't want to get into too much detail, but it will be interesting. As for the title of this section, I just read that there are oil and gas fields in Antarctica. So this may have an interesting outcome for several regions (Bellinsgauzenia being right on the region). That's all I'm going too say for now. Long live Antarctica!! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:49, June 9, 2011 (UTC)




 * I have [virtually] completed my new map. It shows the rivers, new coastline look, and also some border changes based on the new information. Here are some of the major changes that that I would like to note:
 * Maudland now has a border with the South Pole (or it would prior to the creation of the South Pole neutral site). When Great Britain occupied and annexed "Yugosiberia," Britain offered to give portions of the former Russian colony to Norway. The strait line is the 45th meridian east (the same border of OTL Maud Land).
 * New Swabia also has a strait line border now. After WWII, New Swabia relinquished all of its territory west of the 10 meridian west (the same border that "divided" NS in OTL). Maudland gained more coastline.
 * I am also rethinking the history of New Devon. I may change the name of the country to the "United Republic." This is because New Devon would be only one of the two entities in what I plan on calling the "United Republic of New Devon and 'Yugosiberia'." I don't think I am going to keep the name "Yugosiberia," since it seems grammatically incorrect for the language.
 * That's all I have so far. What do you all think? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:29, June 10, 2011 (UTC)

Some ideas I want to bring up!
Hello everybody. I have two ideas that have been bugging me lately, and I wanted to bring them up for discussion.


 * Divided Australia?

Chalk this one up to my openness early on and not allowing the Russians to declare a monopoly in Antarctica, but would the advance to a greener Antarctica also cause more colonial interest in its neighbor? At the POD of TTL (1820 respectively), what we now know as Australia was only made up of three British colonies: New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. Virtually everything west of the (modern day ) was unclaimed, and would not be claimed by Britain until 1829. My thought would be that if Britain would be so keen not to be left out of Antarctica, they may be preoccupied enough to allow another power to claim the unclaimed portions. As much as I would love to combine Russians and Kangaroos, that is not what I am suggesting. All I know is that the Netherlands had their eyes on Australia as much as the UK's. In fact, the western portion of the continent (even the entire continent) was called New Holland. So maybe the Dutch (especially after the failure of a Dutch colony on Antarctica) would take their chances and establish claim on the unclaimed part of Australia, creating the official Dutch colony of New Holland. So Australia could have two countries on it, Australia (as we know it today) and New Holland.


 * More German Colonies gain Independence?

The fact that the German Empire was able to gain colonies surprises me. But as was the case in New Swabia for TTL, Britain would gain mandates on virtually all of them after WWI. But if New Swabia would be keen enough to fight off British occupation and regain independence, wouldn't other German colonies do something similar. Though I can't say which ones would be likely to do so, I would say that Nambia would be on the list (since they still have a German population).


 * Conclusion

Those are the two ideas I have had. Please tell me what you think. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:41, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the main reason why the Dutch couldn't manage to colonize at all like that was troubles they had in Europe, which would remain in place here. Just can't see them being able to do such a thing in Australia before the Brits get involved, no matter how delayed they are. However, I could see them getting more of Borneo.

Nambia would have to fight off the South Africans, which is a whole different ballpark. And, unlike in New Swabia, the Germans aren't in the majority, not even close. They readily cooperated with the South Africans otl, and it would more than likely be the same atl.

Lordganon 07:36, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Earlier Maudland & New Swabia?

 * TL;DR: How about New Swabia was founded around 1886 and Maudland was founded around 1873?

As we have it, Maudland was first settled in 1889 and established as a colony in 1896; while New Swabia was first settled in 1899 and established as a colony in 1902.

The way I see it, there are two problems with that: firstly, their populations would probably far smaller than we've imagined during the World Wars; and secondly, other empires (particularly the British) would probably have dominated all of northern Antarctica by the time the Norwegians and Germans arrived.

I faced the same problem with Santiago, so I simply shifted its date of settlement from 1901 to 1859; and I suggest we set earlier dates of colonization for Maudland and New Swabia, too. It wouldn't really have much of an effect on the current Great White South canon, as there is little detail on the 19th century; but it would make the existence of Maudland and New Swabia more plausible.

For New Swabia, we can't go any earlier than 1884, due to German colonial policy; but any time in the 1880s would be good. It allows for a weaker early period followed by around 20 years of rapid development before World War I begins, which seems a plausible early history of the colony. Plus, more than 1 000 000 people left Germany between the 1880s and the 1900s, but less than 80 000 went to the German colonies, due to them not being "open" enough for settlement (they were mostly in Africa and the Pacific). New Swabia would surely attract a few hundred thousand of these emigrants.

As for Maudland, we could theoretically go as far back as we wanted; but in my opinion, some time in the 1870s would be a realistic estimate. It would allow for more developed coastal cities (which is the current plan for Maudland, I believe), and it would create the opportunity for the Norwegian polar explorers of OTL to be the frontiersmen who explore the Maudlandic interior between around 1880-1910 in TTL.

Thoughts? - Mister Sheen 15:57, August 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * With Maudland it could be quite interesting, I belive it could have two affects. The first would be to have Maudland as a truly federal state with a Swedish and Norwegian state and that it would be even more loosely connected with Norway than it is currently, prehaps resembling the Dominions under the Statute of Westminster 1931. For New Swabia its main affect would be the larger population.Vegas adict 16:45, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think Maudland might follow a similar pattern to Greenland in terms of independence (though it would happen earlier for Maudland due to World War II): becoming an integral part of Norway around 1945, with the same rights as the mainland counties; getting home rule in the 1960s; and becoming independent in the 1970s-80s (possibly keeping the Norwegian King as Head of State).

There would definitely be a Swedish population, due to the countries being united until 1905; but isn't the plan for the Norwegian colonists to be more numerous, and they vote to join Norway rather than Sweden in 1905?

I definitely think New Swabia needs an earlier date. There's just no way they would have enough men to out against the British for 2 years in World War I if the colony was only 12 years old. - Mister Sheen 17:20, August 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think if the colony was established earlier their would be more Swedish settlers there would still be more Norwegians but thier might have to be some kind of agreement. I definetly agree though that if Maudland was established earlier it would be independent now. I think it would still be part of Norway at its formation, becoming Autonomous sometime after the first world war, gaining self rule after the second and gaining independence with the end of the New Swabian war, Thoughts?Vegas adict 17:37, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

The Swedish Maudlanders would certainly be an important part of society; and I definitely think that either Swedish and Norwegian would both be official languages, or some kind of Maudlandic creole would develop. Then again, the two languages are so similar that there probably wouldn't be any need for a creole.

I doubt that Maudland would get autonomy before World War II; partly because Norway wouldn't want to lose their most important colony and partly because most people would still feel close to the motherland; but after World War II, people would become dissatisfied with simply being a colony. Maudland would likely become either a territory (with some autonomy) or a county (part of Norway) until the 1950s or 1960s, when it would get home rule. If it wasn't independent by 1982, the independence movement would probably gain a lot of support after the New Swabian War; and full independence would follow shortly after.

Going back to the original point: it's your article, so are you okay with changing Maudland's date of foundation? - Mister Sheen 20:02, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Yes I am, In fact I'm going to go through the various articals and update to fit that date over the next day or so. I think the 60's would be a good date for getting home rule as they have Anna Lykke as Premier (I'm going to go for them being a teritory with autonomy after WW2 and as a colony with representation in parliament before then) and the fact that she was a powerful figure as it is at the moment and then independence under Mjoen in the aftermath of the New Swabian WarVegas adict 20:50, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Transyazalasha to Lower Yazalashar
Hello everybody. I don't know whether you all are going to be mad or exited about the news, but I am once again renaming "Transantarctica." First I renamed it Transyazalasha, not it will be called Lower Yazalashar. As mentioned before, "Yazalashar" means "the land where the dogs howl," and is the name which referres to OTL Transantarctic mountains and the coastal regions near it. I changed the name because I really hated using "Trans" in the name. Hope you all like the name. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:01, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Я люблю Антарктиду!!!


Good news everybody, I now have the climate map of Antarctica out. I don't know if this will make Antarctica look less inviting, but I like how it came out. I now like to think of Antarctica as "Anti-Australia" (you can probably guess why). Hope you all like it, I still have more ideas on the way. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:44, September 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just happened to stop by; I really like the way this timeline is going. But going through the timeline I kind of pictured coastal Antarctica as having a marine climate, like the OTL Pacific Northwest, rather than a continental climate, and then Patagonia could have a Mediterranean or humid continental climate. But it's your call. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:00, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Out of interest, any idea of the Antarctic ice cap's maximum extent (I'm assuming it grows in the winter)? - Mister Sheen 15:26, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

I think that we can safely assume that the white regions are the normal extent. Past that, yes, it would grow in small amounts in the winter, but mostly just thicker if anything - the effects would be barely noticeable, overall. 'm inclined to think, however, that even with some sort of global warming going on, that the glaciers here are probably going to increase in size on average, though slowly. Lordganon 21:00, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

I have created my own version of a climate model, by simply using ActiveSky Evolution for Flight Simulator and turning off weather reporting for certain key real world Antarctic stations, and I can say what I think the climate would be based on that.

The northernmost parts of Eduarda, New Vestfold, and Bellinsguazenia get fairly hot summers when I turn off weather reporting at certain key Antarctic stations. Cookstown comes back with an average summertime temperature of around 75F, with heat waves sometimes taking the temperatures over 100. In October, ActiveSky did show a daytime high of 102F where Cookstown would be. Northern Eduarda is also shown, by ActiveSky to be quite humid at times. Cookstown and Davis actually turn out to be some of the hottest places on the continent during the summer months.

Scott City, where the McMurdo base would be, has a mild summer climate when I do this to ActiveSky, with normal daytime highs in the summer around 65 to 70 F, and nighttime lows around 50.

Bouvet Island and Kerguelen have very warm and humid summers, but rarely get above 80 degrees in the climate model I created with my flight simulator weather add on. Summertime dew point tempertures sometimes reach a very humid 72 degrees in the summertime in both locations, making for very warm and sticky summers.

Byrdia, Ognia, Santiago, Maudland, as will as one poster's proposed country of Ettejsborg still have very cool summers, with daytime highs around 50 degrees F, much like what the OTL Falklands have, with occasional warm spells pushing the temperature close to 70 F. The summetime sea level climate on that part of the continent could be described as similar to the Aluetian Islands in Alaska. As I write this now on January 7, ActiveSky, with the tweeks I did to it, is showing 44F in Neumayer, 46 in Ny Oslo, 42 in San Martin, 10 in Quaor, and 15 in New Washington. Quaoar and New Washington are so cold becuase of the altitudes they are at.

Some parts of Ognia, Bellinsguazenia, Eduarda, and the United Republic still say at or below freezing, even in summer, becuase of the altitude, and the fact that temperature does drop down much faster with altitude a the poles, especially in the sumemertime. For example, the airport in Cookstown, being up on a hill, would be quite bit cooler than the city itself. I can be about 80 in the city, but around 50 at the airport.

Interior portions of the continent still remain quite cold with the Antarctic climate system I set up, by tweeking a few settings in ActiveSky. Vostok, even in the summertime, gets maybe 1 deg F, in my FSX climate model, and still down to 50 or 60 below in the winter. As I am writing this now on January 7, ActiveSky is showing a temperature of -13 deg F where Vostok would be and in Concordia is is -9 F.

69.12.224.41 08:43, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Rank Insignia
I was thinking about rank insignia.

Here was my idea about Bellingsgauzenia. It's like this. From Marcpasquin.

http://ib.frath.net/w/File:Snor-ranks.png

Perhaps you can ask Marcpasquin to modify the rank insignias.

General tiu 08:34, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Coat Of Arms
And I clean forgot...

Santiago COA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Escudo_COA_Tierra_del_Fuego_Province_Argentina.svg
 * Oops, I forgot to add them. My bad. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:32, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Ognia COA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Magallanes,_Chile.svg

Don't know about Byrdia, though. Though it resembles any US State Emblem.

Maudland's COA is like Norway's but with a black background.

General tiu 08:34, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Early indigenous leaders
Just letting you all know; if anyone's planning to write an article about an Antarctic indigenous person from around 1860-1950, there are plenty of potential portrait photographs here. - Mister Sheen 15:18, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

New Ideas
Here are several new ideas for the timeline that I think are interesting to look into.




 * LHD: When I originally worked out a nation of Antarctica years and years ago, I envisioned it as being completely (driving their cars on the left-side of the road). I always found it weird that there isn't too many LHD nations outside the Commonwealth Realm (excluding Japan). Maybe all the nations of Antarctica would agree to standardize their driving system. It makes some sense for several nations. British/Commonwealth Antarctica would have already been doing it, New Swabia could have moved towards it during British occupation (much like Namibia), Bellinsgauzenia would probably like the idea as a means to further themselves from the USSR (like how the US changed from LHD to RHD); while Byrdia, Maudland, Ognia, and Santiago would probably be willing to change. Maudland and Santiago may have already been LHD (possibly) since Argentina and Sweden were LHD (during the early 1900s).


 * Dominion of Westralia: I already brought up the possibility that Australia being divided. However, I only included the possibility of another colonial power (such as France or the Netherlands) establishing a colony, not dividing the English colonies. But anyway, here is a new proposal, and I think it will make Mumby quite interested in the idea. With Eduarda being prominent in the region, maybe the would become successful. The Dominion of Westralia would be formed, and they would be one of the founders of the . Just look at the proposed flag of Westralia and tell me that they wouldn't want to be a part of this Confederation.

--NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:06, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

The left-side driving makes sense.

Unlikely that it could be successful. The British government ultimately determined that they could not do it otl, no reason here for that to change here. Eduarda existing would really make no difference overall.

Lordganon 21:26, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Here are more ideas:


 * K'athar to Kathar: I have been wanting to do this for a while now. I find it weird and inappropriate that there is an apostrophe in the name. The only reason I named "I'kranar" an apostrophe was priamrily to make "K'athar" not the only one, but I continue to find it pointless. So, I would rather change all to simply "Kathar".




 * New Flags: I have more new flag ideas, primarily for and . I have uploaded my proposed flag for New Vestfold, while I haven't completed my idea for Balleny yet. The major change to New Vestold would be replacing OTL BAT coat of arms with a penguin (looking similar to the Kangaroo symbol of Australia). I will upload my Balleny flag when I am done with it.

I would also like to make mention that coming soon, I plan on uploading the vector version of the main Antarctica map, allowing everybody to have a peace of the map. I must warn you all, it is very big, and very messy. I will explain it in greater detail later. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:50, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

I like the flag. Good call on the naming too. Lordganon 02:36, September 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * LHD: Makes sense to me. Eduarda, the United Republic, New Swabia, New Vestfold, the former Ross Dependency and former Grahamland would all use LHD because of the Commonwealth; Santiago could easily follow Argentina into LHD; and the Ognian states would probably agree on a common policy, which would likely be LHD due to Ognia's only land border (in the early 20th Century) being with Grahamland. I believe Sweden drove on the left until the 1960s, so that could explain a Maudlandic LHD system. Bellinsgauzenia might use LHD due to its extensive borders with Commonwealth countries (and Yekaterinia would probably see RHD as a symbol of the French occupation, and would be glad to abandon it in the 1940s). The weak link is Byrdia (and by extension, possibly the South Pole). I really think it's unlikely for Byrdia to adopt LHD during American rule; and it would be almost impossible to make the switch after independence, because the RHD highway infrastructure would be so expensive and impractical to alter.
 * Westralia: I really like the idea, but I'm not sure how possible it is — unless Western Australia has a much higher population (which could happen, I guess), and there is more support for the autonomy movement.
 * K'athar: Yeah, the apostrophe seems unnecessary unless it's between two vowels.
 * Flags: I like the new flag design for New Vestfold, but the colors of the penguin emblem sort of make it look like a military roundel, in my opinion. Balleny's flag could use a new design, so that sounds good.
 * -Mister Sheen 22:43, September 9, 2011 (UTC)



To be honest, I got the idea for NV's flag from the Australian RAF. But I guess you are right. I altered the design, looking more like West Australia's (OTL) flag. Here is my "new" proposal for Balleny. Pretty much, it is the same design as I originally wanted for Balleny, but with an altered Crux design to resemble New Zealand's design (rather than Australia... more or less). I think it looks much, much better.

For the LHD, I can potentially see Byrdia remaining RHD, but I see the SPNZ definitely being LHD. For one reason, the majority of the region belonged to nations which would use LHD. From what I understand (or can guess), the SPNZ gained territory from Maudland, New Devon, and Byrdia. Byrdia only gave up a little bit of territory in comparison to ND, so you can do the math. As for Westralia, I feel it could be possible for a bigger population, but I continue to see it go either way. But if Newfoundland can remain outside Canada, than maybe we should look at Westralia in a different way. I read that the state decided to join the Commonwealth of Australia just moments before it was finalized. Maybe they would decide not to join. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:16, September 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now I think of it, Maudland only has a connection to LHT Sweden until 1905, whereas it has a strong connection to RHT Norway until the 1970s. Then again, Maudland gains a lot of autonomy in the 1940s, and even more autonomy in the 1960s; so they might decide to switch to LHT (like their neighbors) during that period.
 * As for the South Pole, isn't the entire region is covered by a permanent icecap? If so, there would probably be no roads whatsoever in the region by the time of the SPNZ's formation in 1950; so the driving laws of the countries which created the SPNZ would have little relevance in the area even before it was created.
 * I'm definitely not opposing the idea of Westralia. I really like it, and if we can figure out the history of why it decided to separate from Australia, then I think we should input it. - Mister Sheen 09:18, September 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * You are definitely right about the SPNZ, I guess there would be a permanent ice cap there. But wouldn't Byrdia want to be equal with the other nations by becoming LHD? Like how Argentina changed because of the Pan-American highway. And for that matter, what of Tierra del Fuego, which would join LHD Ognia in the 1980s (just thought about that).


 * The only thing I can think of is that Westralia decides not to join the Commonwealth (like New Zealand), and would be one of the founders of the BIC. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:55, September 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * I personally doubt the Byrdians, being a US colony, will be persuaded to drive on the left. What about the auto industry of Byrdia if the US had to ship Byrdia with RHD vehicles?


 * General tiu 17:14, September 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * I certainly think that Byrdians would want to switch to LHT for the sake of international transport; but due to the already-existing infrastructure (especially ), it's almost impossible for any country with a half-decent highway system to change its traffic direction after around 1970.
 * Tierra del Fuego is a problem. If it stays RHT, then it would be out-of-sync with the rest of Ognia; but switching to LHT would be very difficult and would mess up the southern end of the Pan-American highway.
 * I really don't think Westralia is too much of a problem. As far as I can tell, it makes much more sense than Newfoundland, so if you want to include it, let's just include it. - Mister Sheen 22:58, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Newfoundland was its own dominion until it went bankrupt during the Depression from taking on too many loans in the 1920s. It actually makes sense. Even with a larger population, Westralia does not.

Byrdia would likely decline to switch.

Just have the highway end at the strait before TdF. Then you can do anything past that point.

Lordganon 07:55, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Antarctica being habitable (the POD of this timeline) would have much more impact on Western Australia than Newfoundland.
 * The current reason for Newfoundland's continued dominion status is that it was "one of the most loyal British colonies". Personally I can't see how Antarctica made that happen.
 * The reason for Western Australia's independence could hinge on the 1933 referendum, when 66% of voters supported withdrawing from Australia. In Newfoundland's confederation referendum (in 1948), the pro-independence campaign received less than 50% of votes; so in terms of popular support, it makes more sense for Western Australia to be independent than Newfoundland.
 * The reason Western Australia was unsuccessful was the blurriness of the Statute of Westminster and the lack of support from the Australian Federal Government. With a higher population, the Western Australian independence movement could put substantially more pressure on the Federal Government to listen to their demands. - Mister Sheen 10:45, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

It failing to get it had nothing to do with the Australian Government. Lordganon 10:49, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * The overall reason the movement failed was its perceived insignificance (by London and Canberra). A higher population means a bigger movement, and a bigger movement is a more significant movement. - Mister Sheen 13:17, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

No. It "failed" because Canberra ignored it, and London ruled that it was none of their business.

A larger population won't have any impact about people caring. If anything, it makes the problem smaller. More immigrants equals less people voting for it. Probably would not even get a majority here.

Newfoundland would actually have preferred some sort of Imperial option, but it was not an option otl. Here, with it being possible, they would have taken it.

Lordganon 23:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I really can't understand where you're coming from now. London debated the secession referendum for over a year before deciding it was a matter for the Australian government; and then the Australian government simply ignored it (as they had been doing all along) because they were reluctant to lose the resource-rich Western Australia. It had everything to do with the Australian Government.


 * And we aren't talking about mass immigration suddenly occurring in the years leading up to the referendum. The POD of this timeline is before the first settlement of Western Australia, so we could make the population higher from as early as the 1820s, if we wanted. The most likely scenario would be a small, steady growth throughout the 19th century, built on Antarctic trade; followed by a mass growth in the 1890s, sparked by the discovery of gold, like in OTL, except larger. The movement would still exist, and would still have roughly the same proportion of support as it had in OTL; the only difference would be its increased size, which would make it a much more serious issue, and one which the Australian government would find it much harder to ignore.


 * Newfoundland had the option of either becoming a Canadian state or remaining a Commonwealth dominion. Joining the "British Imperial Confederation" in TTL is pretty much the exact same thing as being a Commonwealth dominion, so I don't see why Newfoundlanders would vote any differently if they had the option of joining the BIC. - Mister Sheen 08:56, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

No. The options were "Responsible Government," which is what Canada had, joining Canada, and remaining under the "Commission of Government. Joining the Confederation is none of those options, but a cross between Responsible government and the commission. An option between the two, had it existed, would have placated those in favor of union and negated benefits of union with Canada, and would have been the eventual winner, hands-down.

You missed the point. The vote otl was so successful because of those who were there to vote - a lot of them were American, or at the very least not British, in descent or nationality. Those extras from prior to the 1890s would be Imperialists, by and large, and would swing the vote in the other direction. And, note the voting patterns: The areas that, by 1933, were mining areas still, all voted against the referendum. Such a state is not viable and would have to fight civil war.

Lordganon 09:41, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Antarctic Accents
Here is my idea of Antarctic accents.

Santiago's Spanish is an outgrowth of Argentine-Uruguayan Spanish. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Spanish. However, it had developed its own characteristics due to geography. Ognian Spanish is the similar, though influenced by Chilean Spanish.

New Swabian German dialect is somewhat influenced by Swedish and Norwegian. Due to the occasional Afrikaner migration, Afrikaans words were introduced or at least Germanized. New Swabian dialects arose from Northern German dialects.

Norwegian in Maudland is like the. Because of German and Swedish influence, it seems that the Maudlanders, to a mainland Norwegian ear, speak German or Swedish rather than Norwegian. Maudlandic Norwegian uses the Nynorsk writing system almost exclusively.

Eduardan English is a variant of the English spoken in St. Helena and OTL Falklands. Ognian English is OTL Falkland Islands, but with differences as well.

Byrdian English is like a cross between West Coast US English and Alaskan English. Byrdians are mocked as 'article haters' because of their propensity to drop the article. Runglish also is spoken in Byrdia.

Bellingsgauzenian and UR Russian is influenced by Northern Russian dialects. The Russian from St. Petersburg may have a better time of understanding a Bellingsgauzenian than a Muscovite. In Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian media, someone from the UGB speak Russian like a Finn or Estonian do, that is, slow.

General tiu 08:41, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why west coast accents for Byrdia? Many settlers came from the New England area, wouldn't they most likely have Yankee accents?  Mitro 19:41, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Amundsen, Scott, Shackleton, and other Antarctic explorers TTL
I just had to ask this question: what happened to the great Antarctic explorers TTL? Where would Amundsen, Scott, and Shackleton be? Would they be part of Antarctic society or just some names in a historian's dusty book? Godfrey Raphael 12:09, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Considering he's usually mentioned in the same breath as those three, Douglas Mawson should be included too.

I suppose that one or two of them may well be involved with exploring near the pole.

Amundsen, given the lack of ice, etc. in the south, would probably just continue exploring in the Arctic after discovering the passage. Mind, he's also probably respected and acknowledged here.

Mawson would be involved with New Vestfold, probably.

I have to figure that Scott would not be famous here. The man's claim to fame, quite honestly, is largely based on nothing other than dying and failing otl. There's no reason at all to perpetuate that here.

Shackleton, I can see exploring in the south still. Or anywhere else, really. Heck, without Antarctic expeditions, he'd have been around for all of WWI. Maybe some sort of General or something. Either way, he probably would get more of the recognition he deserves, and not die badly like otl.

Lordganon 21:15, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * A few of them already have 'positions' – off the top of my head, Nordenskiold was Governor of Maudland, Dumont d'Urville was Governor of Kerguelen, and Byrd was (obviously) Governor of Byrdia.
 * I'd quite like to pull an Alternate Destinies-type scenario whereby all of the major Antarctic explorers of OTL end up having some kind of connection to Antarctica in TTL. And ultimately, the lack of ice doesn't change the fact that Antarctica would still be among the least-explored regions on the planet in the 1880s-1910s (after all, the continent was only discovered in 1820), meaning at least some of the OTL Antarctic explorers could still be Antarctic explorers in TTL. The rest of them (especially the Naval officers) would likely be colonial officials or military figures; and the scientists would probably stay scientists, though their work might be more extensive, making them more famous/significant in TTL.
 * I particularly think Robert Falcon Scott, Ernest Shackleton and Roald Amundsen deserve some kind of significance (after all, the South Pole station is still called the Amundsen-Scott Station in TTL, for some reason). Just a suggestion. Mister Sheen 23:23, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Please do. I'm very interested in how they'll turn out here. Godfrey Raphael 15:46, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have an idea why Amundsen-Scott station was named such. Instead of racing each other, Amundsen and Scott could have worked together to reach the pole. Of course, they'd disagree over whether to use dogs or ponies--heck, this might even be a cause for a possible rift between them--but overall, they'd succeed in reaching the pole. Comments? Godfrey Raphael 14:11, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Music
There would probably be a handful of world-famous Antarctic bands and singers. Pretty much every English-speaking country has had at least one major musical success (even the Isle of Man can sort-of claim the Bee Gees); and Iceland — a country which speaks a different language to anybody else in the world and has less than half a million people — has Bjork, Sigur Rós and múm, to name just a few; so there would most likely be a few Antarctic bands of equal fame. Outside of the UK, the USA, Canada, Ireland and Australia; a lot of countries tend to just "import" most of their pop music, which leaves the local scenes open to more diverse, different genres; which would likely be the case in most of Antarctica.

I definitely think there should be "that Eduardan band", some kind of pop group who had a couple of hits in the 70s or 80s, who are the only Eduardans most people have ever heard of (essentially the Antarctic equivalent of Men at Work). If Antarctica has any kind of Celtic roots (which it almost definitely does), there is probably a pretty big folk scene, which could also have two derivatives: a -type "Celtic punk" scene; and a Celtic-influenced scene (which might sound something like this). And there has to be some kind of New Swabian punk/krautrock/metal scene (probably with an anti-Fascist stance, coming into conflict with the government in the 1970s), which could spill over into Maudland. Bellinsgauzenia, New Swabia and Maudland probably have sizeable techno scenes; and Ognia would likely have a New Wave scene based on traditional AIP music, whatever that sounds like. Byrdia must have had a slew of Bob Dylan knock-offs during the Civil Rights era; but its modern music scene is probably just a more folksy, "indie" version of America's. Because of its 'Gaucho' origins, Santiago probably has a musical tradition rooted in Latin American ballads, but I think its modern scene would look basically the same as, say, Iceland's.

As for Classical Music, I think Antarctica should have at least one great composer (possibly a Bellinsgauzenian anthemic composer from the late 19th Century or a New Devonian version of Aaron Copland who was most active in the 1940s-60s?), but there could easily be many more. There could also be a couple of highly successful Antarctic opera composers and singers – I'm thinking New Swabians, but they could be from any nation, really.

And let's face it, everybody loves Jazz, so why should Antarctica be any different?

Mister Sheen 20:53, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Permits
Hello people

Is this timeline completly freely editable? i ask it because because i have been warned of editing withouth authorisation in an excessive bad mood, even in a timeline that was indicated to be freely editable.

Breizhcatalonia1993

Really? Nothing you edited was freely editable in the manner you tried, and I even told you why.

As for this, read its Editorial Guidelines

Lordganon 23:05, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Massive Geography Changed
I think I found one flaw in this timeline that maybe will cause a lot of concern for the timeline: if all the ice of Antartica melted (which is the POD of this TL), 200-210 feet of water will rise. Any areas below that line with be submerged into water.

So if the ice in Antartica melted, how will this affect the geography of every other continent?

RandomWriterGuy 20:02, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is an intentionally ASB TL. That issue was butterflied away when Nuke first created it, so it is really not an issue to the writers.  Mitro 21:13, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

o.o Surprising post to see

@RWG

As Mitro said.

But, in addition, look at the map. An ice cap remains. The continent is sunken compared to otl, and a fair portion is covered with ocean. Add to that the groundwater that it would have, unlike otl. It's not impossible that between those, the lesser amount of ice is possible without flooding the earth.

Lordganon 00:55, November 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks LG, it's nice to know that my timeline isn't as ASB as... MITRO?? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:50, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I should explain my sudden appearance. As my blog grows I realized it was silly of me to cut myself from one of the larger AH communities when I pride myself on keeping up to date on what is happening across the online universe.  Plus I am going to be submitting a short story to be published soon (beta readers needed), so I am very happy with my creative energy at the moment and felt comfortable once more visiting the AH wiki.  I have no interest in resuming my admin duties and while I still enjoy reading what is produced from the community TLs like Great White South or 1983: Doomsday I do not plan to return as a full-time contributor for the foreseeable future.
 * That being said ASB PODs are not the same as ASB TLs. Having an ASB event happen that changes history does not excuse an author(s) from using the same rules of cause/effect and research necessary when writing a plauisble TL.  GWS does not have to explain why the southern most continent is habitable, it is unimportant to the story as a whole.  Mitro 19:40, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

A New Nation
My I create a new nation. The nation would be tiny, like the size of Republic of Hong Kong. I don't know where it should be or what should it me named. Tell me if you like the idea. Westsylvania 23:58, November 18, 2011 (UTC)Westsylvania

Outside of Antarctica, the world is almost the same here. And Antarctica is pretty much full, If memory serves. So probably not. Lordganon 03:14, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * In theory, yes, but it depends on what you had in mind. There are a few late-addition tiny nations (which don't have articles yet), most notably, a territory captured by Japan following the First World War, which rejoined shortly after the fall of the Nazi Party; and , a K'atharan fiefdom which declared its allegiance to Denmark during the , became a Danish colony in the 1890s, and joined  in 1993. See this map for locations (Kikorishima is in light green, just north of New Swabia; Ettejsborg is in pink, just west of Ognia).
 * The reason those nations could fit into the timeline was because they don't still "exist" in 2011 — they were both absorbed by other nations in the 1990s. Modern Antarctica has been pretty much decided, but if you wanted to create a historic nation, that could work. - Mister Sheen 11:41, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Where you put Kukurishima appears to be where Bouvet Island is. It would not be able to support too large a population, but it could still work. As I create AI traffic for Flight Simulator 2004, X, and the upcoming FS 11, I have even come up with the name for the capital city, Kukiko. 69.12.224.41 12:22, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

It's not even remotely close to being where Bouvet is. Nor, as Nuke said below this, is it ever becoming canon. Lordganon 14:20, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

What I have in Mind:  Kingdom of Sylvania   

'''Kingdom of Sylvania was a kingdom that was located on the shores of Alexandia. The Kingdom was founded when the Sylvania Family load in a fleet of ships with 250 people and sailed to two islands in nutural territroy in 1825. Trying to excape the war torn Europe the Sylvania family succecfully founded the town Sylvania and proclaim the town and some of the land surrounding it as the Kingdom of Sylvania. In 1829 a Dutch settlement was founded inside of the claims of the kingdom. The Dutch send a porpostial to Sylvania that states that Sylvania would be reconised as a nation if they drop all of the claims on the mainland. Sylvania turn down the offer starting the First Sylvanian War. Sylvania won the war and the dutch colony was disabandon. Then 1856 the Russian Empire try to capture the kingdom in what is called the Second Sylvania War. Sylvania lost most of the claims on the mainland to Russia. Between 1865-1910 the kingdom made some alliances with Russia and United States. During WW1 Sylvania was on the sides of the Allies and perpiciptated in major battles all over Antarctica. The Kingdom ended durning the Russian Civil war. Sylvania sided with the Russian Government. The Communist Government assulted Sylvania and won so sylvania became apart of the USSR. After the fall of the USSR the leagal status is in question. The people of the former kingdom have brought the casw to the UN. In early 2012 is when we will learn if the Kingdom of Sylvania will become a nation again or a part of the Russian Federation.'''

Westsylvania 18:08, November 19, 2011 (UTC)Westsylvania

West, you were told that modern Antarctica is already established.

Not only that, but that state I can pretty well say would not happen. You named it after yourself, and have it established in a period which it would be nearly impossible. Really, seems ASB to me.

Lordganon 03:30, November 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Absolutely not. Antarctica is already full, no new nations. As for the Japanese and Danish colonies, I don't know who thought of this, but they are not canon, and I am not allowing them to become canonized. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:22, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Then what rules do I have to follow. Westsylvania 13:37, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

You were just told "no new nations." That's the rule to follow. Lordganon 14:40, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I support one idea of Transantarctica becoming an indepdenent nation of some kind.

Fauna
Are their any new Antartic fauna in this timeline?

Transantarctica
What's going to happen to it? is it going to try and become independent or what? ~anon

I could see Transantarctica becoming an indepdent state with New Auckland as its capital. That would be a good direction to take the timeline.

Chilly8 11:40, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

For starters, the area is called Lower Yazalashar.

Second, it is part of Bellinsgauzenia.

Lordganon 14:14, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Vinson Massif
Hi there. GR back. Just read that Romi Garduce of the Philippines has just conquered Vinson, and I want to ask if I can add an article about the mountain to this TL. Having only the barest idea about Antarctic locations, I want to know where the mount would be located so that I can get started once I get the all-clear (if I get the all-clear). Also, how high is Vinson without the ice? Godfrey Raphael 06:11, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Far as I can tell, it would be in Byrdia.

At that height at this latitude, it would still be covered with ice, I'd think, on its upper slopes. Call it the same height as otl, I think.

Lordganon 08:16, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

Adopting the non-Antarctic nations
I'd like to adopt the non-Antarctic nations. Are there any objections? Godfrey Raphael 14:07, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'll take over New Swabia and its affiliated articles too. Godfrey Raphael 10:16, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Don't know how I missed this.

GR, this is very much so Nuke's timeline. You need to ask him these things.

Lordganon 10:59, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with LG on this, This timeline is Nukes ballpark. With regards to New Swabia I seem to be the person whoes done the most on New Swabia and I will get round to finishing the main article at some point if I get Nukes permissionVegas adict 15:14, January 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know about who did the most work, Vegas. Nuke and I have both done considerable work on New Swabia; and UnitedPacific did plenty as well (he wrote at least 5 New Swabia-related articles that I can think of), when he was still an active writer. Either way, even if Godfrey did adopt New Swabia (which would be Nuke's decision), he wouldn't be able to do much with it because of the huge amount of established canon. At this point, it's pretty much a shared nation for the whole GWS community. - Mister Sheen 16:24, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Is it Nuke's timeline? The front page of this very article actively invites people to contribute as long as they follow the .  The Guidelines make no mention of having to contact Nuke about anything for approval and in fact call the TL open.  Now New Swabia is Nuke's article, so yes you should contract him about that.  I see no reason why an adoption policy like the one for 1983DD cannot be adopted.  Nevertheless, I strongly disagree with the statement that this is Nuke's TL.  He created and wrote much of the original content, so we will always respect him for that, but GWS is its own community now.Mitro 18:45, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

A request
Can anybody make a map of Antarctica like this?

Heinrich or Hienrich?
What is it really? Heinrich Trelk or Hienrich Trelk? I'm very confused. :-( Godfrey Raphael 08:33, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Heinrich is the correct spelling. Lordganon 08:36, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

But why do I keep seeing many articles on GWS calling him Hienrich? Even the name of his article has Hienrich instead of Heinrich. So weird... Godfrey Raphael 08:42, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

It's 'Heinrich', because in German the 'ie' sound produces an 'ee' sound, and the 'ei' sound produces and 'i' sound. I think this is pretty universal and after four and a half years of learning the language I've never come across any exceptions to this rule. In TTL maybe there's a dialectial difference, but... Feg 08:48, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, Feg. Never seen it any other way, either. Heck, seem to recall being told by one of my German instructors that it couldn't be reversed/changed.

GR, at a guess, someone made a spelling mistake, and no one caught onto it. From there, it was just copied, and used incorrectly. Wouldn't be the first time.

Lordganon 09:19, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Requesting permission
I just discovered this althist and I've become obsessed with it. I understand I need permission to make contributions. I would like to add some articles dealing with 1) the ecological transformation of Antarctica following the Great Meltdown, in particular the biological colonization of this continent, so that we can get establish the economic basis for these new civilizations; and 2) the colonization of Antarctica by the Fugean peoples, their dispersal, and the adjustments they make to their societies in their new home. If they suck, in the spirit of the wiki feel free to adjust them.

What say you?74.182.139.254 00:49, April 1, 2012 (UTC)asperhes


 * Greetings. I am glad to see new faces. As long as you have no intentions of creating new countries on the continent, then let me welcome you to the timeline. If you don't mind me adding, we did discuss the aspects of biology differences on the continent, but got nowhere. I believe that I made mention I was interested in a surviving species of (if they would be able to migrate to the continent). I also recall someone mentioning the  (an extinct "furry-lizard" that lived on the continent during the Triassic period), which would be an interesting idea if it could work. All I can say is, penguin species who are better adapted to slightly warmer weather. Otherwise, have fun. Just be sure to mark any new pages as proposals. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:06, April 1, 2012 (UTC)

Environment
I know that people have talked about an environment page before, but I don't see that any have been made.

Depending on how cold it is, there are heaps of animals/plants in Antarctica. Hell, there's already a whole Antarctic Floristic Kingdom. Also, it is well known that Marsupials traveled from South America to Australia via Antarctica...so there could be some sort os species of very furry marsupial.

Anyway, if no one has made the page, I have some ideas and would like to make it. Callumthered 00:43, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why you couldn't start one. Don't forget to add the proposal bit to it, and take to Sheen and Nuke about some details. Lordganon 06:11, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Comment
May I just congratulate everyone who has contributed to this TL. Having stumbled upon this website by chance I loved the idea, but found that many of the time lines were attempting too much and ended up unrealistic and without enough work done to them. This TL by contrast has done really well to limit itself and I can see that this decision has allowed more work to be devoted to Antarctica. If you do add new pages for the non-Antarctic countries, please don't deviate from OTL. It would really ruin such a good page in my opinion.

And again well done!

~Lord Hegio

Unfortunately, the simple fact that the area is getting colonized means that world events change with them. Lordganon 05:46, June 15, 2012 (UTC)