Talk:Holy Russian Empire (Yellowstone: 1936)

U might want to make it more playsible by not takin all of sacandnavia.

Marius

Ahh, no, Oct. Fear not. I have a very good plan for Scandanavia. Raise this point again once I've completed the history, lol.

Do not see any way whatsoever that it could be plausible for them to take Scandinavia, or the areas to the south. Lordganon (talk) 04:54, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Depending on the outcome of the territory this state controls, I may wish to add two (or more) nations.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 20:17, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Guns, seriously. That land is going to be ice. Scandinavia is a lost cause. They can claim it - sure, but do not count on them being remotely being able to man it. You might also want into look into having the Russians have control of Slavic nations in East Europe such as Poland, Yogo, Slovakia and Lithuania. Just a thought. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:40, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

@ Imp

Point A) Fair enough; I wasn't really planning on having much there. Not my references to the Line of Permanent Frost?

Point b) Russia does control all those nations. Except Yogo. I have NO clue what that is.

@LG

Scandanavia is unoccupied. Not so much 'take' as 'claim'.

Those areas to the South? Well, half of them were in the USSR to start with. Turkey and Persia were not, but frankly, over a period of damn near 100 years...

By the way, for some reason whenever I make a template for my sig and put it into my preferences, it changes from TheSigofGuns (say) to SUBST: TheSigofGuns...

I only bring the territory up because of two nation ideas that I have.

Worst case, I can just create the two nations and have them exist before the Russian invasion, at which they will flee abroad into exile.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:29, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Which two nations? We can compromise lol...

I was thinking of Crimea (unlikely for a compromise on that one, but that one could easily flee to Turkey or somewhere else) and, similar to your nation, a self-proclaimed Roman successor state in Thrace and Macedonia that vyes with Greece proper for international recognition. Not too sure if that one is plausible or not.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:34, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Crimea would be Russian all along- the USSR controlled it. For a few years it would have broken away, but my history has most of European Russia back under the HRE by around 1940.

The second, though, we could work with... we could work together on that page perhaps? Have a state in exile across the Aegean?

As I said, Crimea would not last, but the government could flee to another country.

I would be willing to work on the Roman thing together. I was thinking it would be a Romano-Greco-Turkish state that claims the right to own all of Greece, competing with the kingdom of Greece in the southern part of Greece. This Roman Empire would own Thrace, part of Macedonia, and part of Anatolia, while also claiming all of Greece, Anatolia, Pontus, and Trebizond.

I don't know about all of that, but what do you think?

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:52, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea. But doesn't this map have Russia controlling Macedonia? == Well, obviously, that can be changed. And to be fair, I do think this nation is a bit large. Russia does get rather cold, and a lot of people would die.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 02:08, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

The population I have here is about half it's OTL population. 70 million people have died in the name of plausibility. What more do you want from them, you psycho (jk, in case you couldn't tell).

Still Russia barely controls any of Greece. I needed Constantinople, on Imp's advice. == Stop with the massive sigs.

Anyway... Given the close ties between the Russian and Greek churches, the two states could easily work together. Rome would supply a safe shipping straites and Russia would help Rome gain its claimed territory.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 02:26, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

A lot more than half, imo. No way they would be able to take any of it. Not only would it be beyond their strength, but it would also be a problem of latitude. Passage of time is irrelevant. Heck, your state would be majority-Turkish with a map anywhere like this, lol. Lordganon (talk) 08:57, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about, LG?

Point A)

LG... when you consider the facts, you can't be serious. Easily more than half would have survived. We're talking about a military apparatus here. Food rationing, strict martial laws for a decade. A lot of Malinovsky's 'conquests' would just basically be lands that had lost contact with anything else after the coup and the collapse of Russia. They'd be back under the government in a couple months.

Point B)

You're joking, right. The Russian military aparatus against a series of lands that are basically in chaos?

Cannot be serious. You simply cannot. How would it be beyond their strength? Tanks, ammunition, and the men to put out into the field. What's more, the command structure here would probably be the largest intact military command on Earth at the time.

Point C)

What MP said. The Greeks would welcome the Russians. Here comes order, safety, etc.

Point D)

Passage of time irrelevant? Are you joking?

Point E)

Majority Turkish. RIGHHT. Even though the only major city the HRE controls is Constantinople?

And Guns once again LG proves right. I do agree with you the nation would not be majority Turkish, but it would have a very large minority - which if your nation was mean and Soviet they would use to make the infrastructure of the broken nation.

Guns, WE ARE IN A SEMI-ICE AGE!!! NO SCANDINAVIA. That land is frozen over. Becuase the Russians would really look to start up industry in Antartica correct? Scandinavia = Antartica by the 50s. Climate is just the same. Plus, you can count on most of their energies focused southward and the construction of a lot more railway lines and stuff to make sure their nation is well connected. Perhaps the Russians might end up including the other Slavic identities in to a Greater Slavic identity to try to compensate for the greater numbers of Turks - which would make a lot of sense.

This can turn into a superpower, but not by trying to capture ice lands. If you are so desperate for Scandinavia - have the HRE establish a few bases like we do in OTL Antartica. That should allow them to claim the land. But there will be no one there so...

Believe me, it is out of the military's power. The Decade of No Summers is called the Decade of No Summers for a reason. Russia would be agast with civil strife, political tension, ethnic problems erupting - all that sort. So Guns, that is what will probably happen. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:49, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

It's just claims....

FINE!! I'll edit the map! The Ruskies will have none of Scandanavia and a lot more Turks!

I updated the map but the page is being obstinate and refusing to recognize that.

Guns if you want I can make you a clearer map for this nation. Mscoree (talk) 04:22, November 8, 2013 (UTC)



Something like this for example. Let me know what you think. I can remove the other nations' borders and change the HRE's around depending on what you and MP agree upon. I can also add light green to show claimed areas if you want. Mscoree (talk) 04:33, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the nation extends a bit further than that... Let me show you how I think it would be.

Actually, nvm, the page is showing it now. Must have just forgotten to reload it lol.

Basically, it's what you posted, except total control of Anatolia, and a much greater spread into the slavic nations.

Okay I moved the border a little bit to the west and colored all of Turkey. Is that good? Click on the above image to view. Mscoree (talk) 03:27, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

Not even a quarter would survive, imo. You're talking nuclear winter equivalent - heck, a bit worse than that - in an area that is cold in the first place. Over years. And that "apparatus" is not near so good as you think, imo.

There's really no way to justify that, Guns.

Population of the "new" territory vastly outnumbers your Russians. Time won't change that.

...You do realize that Anatolia is heavily populated, a far better climate and Turkish, and that there are Turkic people all around, right? Majority of your population would be Turkish, and Russians a small minority.

Lordganon (talk) 09:53, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

If Turkey heavily outnumbers the Russians in the north maybe the Russians should leave Turkey alone, and control the area around the Crimea. Mscoree (talk) 13:24, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

That would make a lot more sense. Lordganon (talk) 14:42, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

I say limit this nation to the area between Moscow and the Black Sea. Right now it envelopes a few other nations in the works. It's expansion following the destruction of large portions of Russia is a bit implausible, especially since it's invading areas much more stable then itself. Mscoree (talk) 23:37, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

I beg differ. The Russians would heavily outnumber the Turks. Also, I won't be able to post today, so please don't do anything till tomorrow.

Guns, no, stahp. What are you doing?

What of Rome? Surely the Russians can let the Romans exist and do their thing as long as they are a Russian protectorate, right?

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:35, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't be more wrong about that, Guns. Lordganon (talk) 10:28, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

This Eurasian Issue
Well guys, hold up for a while. I'll get what I think ready. Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:14, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so first of all, why are we restricting the HRE not going east? It cannot reach the Pacific, but it can certainly move a good deal east. Plus, why would the Russians not use this oppurtunity to "unite all their Slavic brothers"?

Here are my two maps, appropriately titled:





So this means the HRE has control over more Slavic groups and neutralises the Greeks and Turks if you look at my map. But they can get no more land, and even this will represent 2014 extend of the nation. The borders might be moved back a bit as soon as the borders of the Japanese superstate is decided.

And Guns, you need to learn to compromise lol. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:00, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

And Guns, that flag needs changing. It has no meaning. The modern tricolour can be said to represent the three different "groups" of Russians. You need Petey's tricolour with the eagle in the center. White Russia is Belarus, Blue Russia is Ukraine and Red Russia is the motherland. Maybe we could replace the blue with Orange to represent the link of Ukraine and Greece/the cresent perhaps?

I meant the fact Russia can be powerful. However, it cannot be powerful without a number of things occuring in a certain manner. This will be ironed out, andsince everything that I write on The Great Chaos page is canon, this will benefit you. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:04, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Imp, although I doubt the Russians would have northern Siberia (that area Imp highlighted east of the ice), since that area is pretty much uninhabitable. At the very least that is a claim, but I think it would be more accurate for no one to claim uninhabitable areas. Mscoree (talk) 16:30, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Those lakes would be able to support a few towns and cities, so I think it is not too far out. The area past that will be a whole quagmire of states. The only other major state in the region of be the Empire of the Sun. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:31, November 10, 2013 (UTC)



I recommend this map, with light green areas representing future conquests by modern times. Mscoree (talk) 16:47, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, here's my take.

Constatinople MUST belong to the Empire. The rest of Turkey can be independent, I guess =(.

I think a little bit more of the West, too, more like Ms' map except also controlling Georgia and the nations between the Aral and Black Seas.

COMPROMISE? WHAT IS THIS COMPRO-MISE? PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS WORD TO ME.

Just realized something... in Spanish, Comprar means to buy or purchase. Compromise probably came up as a word in trading, like haggling or somesuch. It's not Latin, though (in Latin it would be emptum).

The Japanese? They can't have expanded THAT far...

No Turkish population... Ok, fine. Minor edits to your maps and I'm cool.

Also, that map was the map of the Romanovs, with some... colourful changes. Since the government claims to be descended from the Romanovs...

In the Caucasus there are other states planned, so I say leave that area out (for now). Constantinople would be the first of the light green areas to be conquered, since you require the city. Lastly, emptum is the nominative neuter singular perfect passive participle of emo, meaning acquire, so emptum would be used as a verbal adjective to describe a neuter object that is bought, like "the bought wall" (vallum emptum). Mscoree (talk) 19:41, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Guns, you have no idea. Those Japanese are pretty aggressive... Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:36, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Fine then. I'm good with Ms' map, with a BIT more advancement westward.

Also, Ms, I know. I was saying that it wasn't comprum, so I was wondering where the Spanish word came from.

Imp... surely they can't HOLD those lands...

Not in the 40s, but certainly by the '14. Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:38, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I made some minor changes to the map, which the map is not showing because it hates me and my guts. Oh, well, it takes two minutes.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  13:03, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

What's the deal with the British Channel? I've seen maps where its closed, making a "British Peninsula", of sorts. Then with the world maps above, I see a sliver of water between the Isles and Mainland Europe. What's going to be cannon when it comes to the Channel? I am that guy

I believe connected.

On this nation's map and on the world map the British Isles are connected to the mainland because the sealevel lowers. I think the sliver of water you're talking about is Amsterdam. Mscoree (talk) 23:36, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Even that map is illogical at best, imo. Lordganon (talk) 10:28, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Video Games
Because of the video games section, I hereby declare that no other article can grad before this one. XD  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:20, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Dear lord yes XD.

23:21, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

So grad it for heaven's sake.

That Mysterious Guns Fellow

Constantinople
How and why does the HRE take Constantinople? Is it an act of aggression during the Great European War? Mscoree (talk) 20:04, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Uhh... no. It happens after, as they are just consolidating and beginning their inital expansion, in around 1939-1940. The Great European War is 1943.

Guns, I don't think so. The Great European War starts around 1940. Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:28, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

But on chat you said... what? WHY? 1943 is better. More time for recovery by all the nations.

Ok, so, Imp, I've tried changing the flag, it hasn't worked, it's all your now, make one up and do your thing.

\

The Great European War starts in 1939 as of right now. It's roughly a European Theater parallel. Mscoree (talk) 23:40, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

In 1939 the HRE can't do anything in that war.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  23:41, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Expansion right when they'd be semi-collapsing on top of themselves? Right.... Like that's logical, Guns. Think about it. Lordganon (talk) 10:28, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Those Flags
Well you see, I did do my flags, but I ended up getting three which looked pretty similar but all three had a unique colour coding which I liked, so I left the decision to you.

So I guess choose whichever one you think is best and tell me anything you would like to change. :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:26, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

I like the last one. Nothing like the original.

But I think I'll go with the First.

Should I change the yellow to red? If not, then I'll just make it into the yellow which was on the other flag you uploaded, the one with the Tsarist eagle. :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:49, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

I like the former.

So changing it to red? I'll get that done by tomorrow. =)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:54, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

The neon green and bright yellow look a bit our of place in my opinion. Mscoree (talk) 03:01, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

I thought so. I have updated the flag to the colours Guns requested. :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:50, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Graduation
Ok, guys... NOW you're just screwing wiht me. We all know this is plausible. Ms, you got PUSA through first. GRAD WEEK HAS PASSED. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason not to Grad this.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  00:17, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The basis of a "Holy" Russian Empire would be implausible due to the fact that a left-wing authoritarian party known as the Bolsheviks have overthrown the Romanov Dynasty and executed the direct family. During the rule of the aristocracy many were peasants (More than 80% of the nation) who were ruled by rich capitalists and the bourgeoisie (Don't know if I spelled that right). The Bolshevik rose up due to its practices in Marxism (Communism) which brings the ideas of Social-Class Equality. During the period before the revolution as I stated earlier in this paragraph, many were peasants who were still suffering from the abolishing of serfdom in 1861; which was carried out by Alexander II the Liberator. The abolishing of serfdom was actually the spark that lit the fuse for the December Revolution, the October Revolution, and then the Russian Civil War. With the White Movement that supported the aristocracy of Russia destroyed during the Civil War, the idea of Communism remains strong within Russia and its other territories (Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR, etc), and this why the idea of a second Russian Empire not even after 20 years of a Communist revolt cannot be established. User:Edboy452    (talk) 01:57, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Soviet Union was just recently formed, so I don't see why the people who executed the Tsar a little less than two decades ago would suddenly welcome the Tsar back, and a fabricated, weak claiming one at that. Mscoree (talk) 02:22, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring, of course, the big pile of chaos that would have went down here the second the first harvests failed. Lordganon (talk) 10:28, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

What LG said. Who are you going to trust, the military people who have gone South and secured viable agricultural land (and who can also protect you against bandits) or the Political Officer who can't feed you or protect your or do anything except spout dogma?

If you're one of the latter, then I admire your moral strength.

If you're one of the former, I admire your intelligence.

One will save you from starvation and machine guns, and the other won't.

I give you one guess.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  22:07, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

Logical Arguments about what you would do don't seem to work on YS. Eh. Mafia CBA doing his signature. Don't judge Him. This Sig is inspired by Guns.

I actually just cannot tell who you're talking about. xD

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  22:10, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

YS - Yellowstone. And Ms. And Daese. And the sodding Canadian Population.

No, I mean who you're supporting in this argument (me, I hope *wink wink*)

No one. Your Argument may well not work though. it appeals to common sense. So actually... You. DAMMIT. Why can't I be Neutral. Ever. Mafia CBA doing his signature. Don't judge Him. This Sig is inspired by Guns.

Because the Don must always pick a side.

<#FAKEGODFATHERQUOTES>

If a monarchy was just proved to not work for the Russian people, and the USSR collapses, why not try something else, not the original system. "Who are you going to trust, the military people who have gone South and secured viable agricultural land", who also abandoned the extremely valuable Cacausus Region. Mscoree (talk) 22:35, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

The Causcasus is good for industry.

They need food.

Secondly, the government was basically a military beauracracy for it's first few years, and now is a semi-democracy. The Tsar is basically a figurehead for the military and this is widely known. And acknowledged. Including by the Czar. So umm...

So... again, any objections? I feel like the current ones no longer stand.

Be careful, I was almost banned for a month for saying that. Mscoree (talk) 23:12, November 13, 2013 (UTC)

LG wasn't on your side then xD.

Also, you said it without even addressing his complaints. I have addressed yours, and I believe my reply to effectively counter your complaints. If you disagree, you are free to shut up and take off the proposal tag.

Can I take it then, Ms, that your objections have expired?

That is basically the exact opposite of what I actually said, Guns, lol. Lordganon (talk) 13:25, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

Guns, deal with the fairly weighty objections on the main Talk Page. If you can deal with them in a satisfactory manner, you can graduate it.

Umm... LG... the first harvest would have failed under the USSR, not the HRE.

The first thing the HRE did was go south and get some Agricultural land.

Nothing fails. Except for the USSR. So, actually, your point backed me up.

The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)  23:57, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

...Not remotely what I said.

This is an area where you have mass starvation occurring, more or less immediately. Would be years before any sort of authority came into being afterwards.

The concept that they could "go south" is ludicrous, at best.

Guns, you really need to think this through some more.

Lordganon (talk) 11:42, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it matters not. This article is now Imp's, or obso. I am distanced.

The idea that they would be able to  annex the entire Balkan region is just absurd to me. They have no claim, and I believe that the Balkans would just get more fragmented, not united. Yank 00:39, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yank, I could explain it to you in two ways.

Firstly, I could give you a long and exhaustive argument that would nothing.

Or, I could just show you this.



The Mighty Guns is too Glorious (or lazy) to go to source mode and type out his real sig  (Dammit, Guns!)   00:47, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the Holy Russian Empire can't possibly control that much. It'd be much more interesting as a small warlord state, not this sprawling Borg state. I quite frankly think that more nations creates more nation pages and more nation pages flesh out the timeline more and make it more interesting. The reason why this timeline is more lucrative to me is that most of the world isn't spoken for, unlike Doomsday. Graduating this page closes a ridiculous amount of territory to the creation of potential nations. And that just makes the timeline poorer. Yank 00:58, November 16, 2013 (UTC)