Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flip back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

So, this time i really slacked off on doing the map, and tried to do it in two editing sessions.the end result: to get it to you at the start of the turn, the map is very rushed, so all the borders are absent due to lack of time.i think i got the numbers right though.Some other errors might be there.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:02, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

The Western part of Cyrenaica due to a deal with Airlinesguy. It was made in 1718/1719 and should be on the mapAndr3w777 (talk) 17:08, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I forgot that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:02, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

The borders of Southern Europe are wrong... Venice controls areas in OTL Hungary and Romania with the remainder of the land being occupied by Yugolavia. Bulgaria and Yugoslavia are united. Greece does not control Cythera, Italia does. I tried to change it thrice but you ignored it each time... Scandinator (talk) 07:26, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed some things.where is this "Cythera"?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:02, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * The southern-most island thats attached to Morea. Scandinator (talk)

You removed my complain Collie... Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:08, June 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, didn't see that too.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:13, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I should have the entire Guer Aike departmentin OTL Argentina as depicted on the linked map, as well as all the OTL Chilean Land due South of that area (I've claimed most of this area twice over the last ten years and nobody lined it out). That should be a suitably small chunk for my main nation to expand into (not a colony). If not I can grab it over the next few year, but I should have quite a good chunk by now. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:19, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Carthage is Part of the French Crown and it has two duchies one inland and one with some coast, the duchy of Leptis and the duchy of Numidia and some land was given to Andrew. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 21:56, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria's holding in Cyrenaica is still not listed nor the land given by France as a part of an allaince treaty.Andr3w777 (talk) 03:39, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Alas it appears Saxon Norway has been (unintentionally) wiped from the maps. Could it please be shown again in the next map? Cheers, Callumthered (talk) 10:43, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Labelled Map
































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<p style="font-size:13px;">New labelled maps :P Scandinator (talk) 16:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map
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<p style="font-size:13px;">Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Update time? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:38, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Industrial Algorithm Modifiers and Industrial Era areas and rates.
I have a proposal to modify the algorithm to put into perspective the colonial wars of the 18th-20th century. An algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. Nations with two stages use the higher when defending and the lower when attacking. Scandinator (talk) 04:59, April 28, 2013 (UTC)



Stage 1

 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Stage 2​

 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Stage 3

 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Railways appear
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Stage 4​

 * Civilian railways appear allowing easier access
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Stage 5

 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Stage 6​

 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Stage 7

 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
I'm extremely confused. Also, I think the industrialization chart should be corrected, as Scandinavia has been vanquished.

16:08, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see no need to remove them, as they have already been removed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I like this one better than it's predecessor, mainly beccause there are more divisions here, allowing for a more accurate representation of the country's standing. Albeit, there are a few things that could be amended. CourageousLife (talk) 16:22, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Much better. And what is confusing Scraw? It is pretty simple to understand once the map is up showing industrialisation levels. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:27, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's for the map.


 * 17:16, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

It needs some corrections, as some characteristics are too late or too early for their times.Such as: We should move the appearing of railways to stage 4, and their spread to 5, to start with, After all, when we talk about railways, this implies steam locomotives, necessarily.And, steam locomotives in 1770?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't too far-fetched. A viable steam engine existed in 1782, it just took a while(about 20 years) before people to realise it could be used for rail transport. A two-cylinder steam engine was invented by a Russian in 1766...it had great potential, and could have perhaps accelerated the development of the steam locomotive by a phew decades(maybe only 10 years to say: put it on a fracking train) but The Empress ditched the designs in favor of a more "Brittish" system(i.e. hydraulicaly cooled that required close water supply...this lagged locomotive construction). So...RUssians could have built locomotives in the 1770s...but the empress wanted to stay close to brittain, and brittish-style tech, so that slowed many things...and because of that, the twocylinder stam engine was scrapped.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unlike the last game, the East is on better footing with the West, and thus will breed even more competition. I think this is completely fine if you ask me. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I've done the research in the industrial era. For whomever industrializes first, these technologies do not suddenly appear. It is gradual in within each stage. Scandinator (talk) 11:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would think that, like in PMII, crimson would be a fraction of the main natino around the nation's "heartland/capital" area, and the rest of the nation would get industry red. And colonies would industry get a colour under their founding nations, etc... However, I am worried about the ammount of colours...in any case, I do believe that orange and yellow(or at the least orange) should get planes at the same time as red and crimson...technology and trade would change to the point that...well...those nations could do thema t the same time...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel like one of these (red, yellow, orange) should be removed. Also, shouldn't Europe (closer to Italy) be receiving industrialization faster than the Middle East?

21:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not that the map is bad, but I would say that the coast and Dehli should be joined up as they are prime industrial locations. Doesn't really change anything, but it looks nicer, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian Federation should really industrialize earlier than its vassal of Baghdad I think. Albeit just industrializing along the coastal regions like Oman and Qatar where the majority of my urban population lives. The Nejd won't see industrialization for many years later. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

China would industrialize quicker than the yellow rate due to their extensive trading, especially with Orissa and Italia. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I too feel that China should be in orange.

I also find it strange that both Georgia and Austria are in orange while Germany itself is in yellow. Not to mention that Germany was higher than Russia on the chart and closer to Italy than Russia.

21:25, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Aren't any of these going to be addressed?

17:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd so something about it since I'm a mod, but I'm not sure if I have clearance for this map. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 18:20, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll edit it since, not only does it seem like the plausible thing to do, but worst-case scenario, they'll revert it and yell at me a little. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 16:53, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be less of orange China, as lots of those areas would be presently unsuitable for industrialization.

22:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a buffer between red and yellow.

CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 05:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I like how Germany is on the same level with the Dimurat and Siberia.

23:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Industrialization
Due to meeting all of the twelve estabilished criteria for industrialization, the antion to be the first to industrialize is going to be Venice.Meanwhile, other nations (Orissa and China) are close, which ended up on somebody suggesting of having two simultaneous industrial revolutions, one in Venice and other in Orissa, the latter some years after the first.I'm not sure about this suggestion, so what somebody else thinks of this?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think the chart should be updated first. Some of the nations listed are more advanced than the mods give them credit for. Venice and China are both moderators, giving them the ability to edit the chart whenever they earn some points. The rest of us have to sit and wait and beg to get points put up. CourageousLife (talk) 10:16, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more, CourageuousLife. In fact, Venice is also a Mod. So, I think there needs to be a massive check before we do anything - and it will need to be soon. Personlly, 2 Industrial Revolutions seems like a good idea to me. Once it gets going in Venice (say 10-15 years), then China and Orissa are both moved up to crimson. Reximus55 (talk) 11:02, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah that current list isn't set in stone, we need to critically evaluate whether it is a fair scoring of nation's ability to industrialize. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:18, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

If I may interrupt. Ethiopia has been pushing for each of the criteria, developing a large middle-class, promoting industry, developing general education (Ethiopia's first major goal that was accomplished), expanding industrial potential. There was also my development of the transportation system which spanned some ten years of expansion, and the demand for coal which Ethiopia was producing for a while until I stopped mentioning it. All of my previous post indicated this. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:13, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

I have done extensive research on how industrialization started and the general consensus is that Italy and Germany were closest OTL apart from Britain mostly due to class structure and urbanization. The problem there was the individual states where too small and constantly warring. This research also allowed me to pinpoint those 12 points as critical to a nation's ability to industrialize first (Britain OTL would have scored an 11 or a 12). Ethiopia, the Mayans and Persia frankly do not have the urban base nor the colonial reach to begin industrializing first. And while I have tried to update other nation's positions on the chart, other mods and often other players just edit it on their own.

Finally, some nations may be developing schools and a "middle class" but you need a reason for it otherwise it would be metagaming and that would not be allowed (we are very lenient with these and really weak reasons are usually still accepted). Example: Venice's middle class is a result of the heavy trade and banking industries that allow many people to rise to the middle class though the roles of bankers, merchants or even crew on some of the long haul trips to Asia. Scandinator (talk) 15:46, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

As the Mayans, I've accepted the fact that I'm not going to industrialize first. The issue that I'm dealing with is that my potential isn't shown. But, if the Industrial Revolution is going to spread more quickly to China and Orissa because their positions on the chart are higher, then I want all of the points that I can muster. Do you see what I'm trying to say? CourageousLife (talk) 20:59, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Once again, I completely agree with CorageuousLife. If Orissa industrializes, then its neighbor (once removed) will probably also industrialize more quickly. Also, if Persia is in the top 5, odds are that industrialization will go east faster. Reximus55 (talk) 23:58, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

On the matter of the middle-class, I stated that it was do to a chain effect of more Ethiopians learning do to the expanded education system, lead to them moving to cities to find better paying jobs. This led to the demand for more work, in which industrial centers were built with coal as a major resource to employ more people. This in turn led to the development of a larger road network which made trade easier. Expanded wages and abudant resources from the cities resulted in the growth of the middle-class, which in turn led to the wholesale expansion of major cities throughout Ethiopia. Look at the last two archived games. I urbanized the empire a while ago. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:17, May 3, 2013 (UTC).

Okay, I did the run down and here is Ethiopia's position on the matter. Ethiopia should have five point more than it does at the moment for reasons that shall be outlined below. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:55, May 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Education: I made it an early priority of the empire to expand education during the early-1600s. Ethiopia was in a close relationship with Orissa and had been expanding generation education to all parts of the empire as part of the modernization program, which had been underway for quite a while before and after the Caliphate era.
 * Resource Demand: Ethiopia had plenty of fuel reserves in the form of coal, and building materials such as wood and iron. As education increased, many Ethiopians; moved into the cities (as I state before and in the game), and this led to the increased demand in raw materials to fuel industrial growth in the cities that were spreading across the empire. I even made mention of the construction of industrial centers in the empire between 1640 and 1650.
 * Transport Capacity: From the beginning of the game to the years Ethiopia escaped the Caliphate's grasp, I made it very clear Ethiopia was expanding its road network, and did so for several decades if anyone  wishes to look. This matter shouldn't even be a dispute since it was basically the one and only thing I worked on over and over again even though I didn't have too long after that goal had been accomplished.
 * Mass Produced Resource: Ethiopia has a huge population of sheep, which has been the deciding factor for the large number of Ethiopians wearing shema, the white cloth that nearly all men and women wore for centuries under it was invaded by Italy (and to a large degree still worn by many today).
 * Religious Freedom (Science & Technology): Most of Ethiopia's scientific development has been in cooperation with Orissa, and even without Orissa, Ethiopia has never mixed science with religion though I've not spoken of the matter much. While this is a sketchy matter, Ethiopia's view on it is that religion is to control the people, not the science needed to make life better. There is a clear line there.

Buddy, transport capacity means a huge network of ports and ships to transport goods... Everything else is fine. But it still is not the 12 that Italia has...

You mean like Mombasa, Malindi. Lamu (the historical Swahili port-cities), Massawa, Assab, Manila, Saigon, Dagupan, Luanda and Port-Gentil? I have plenty of ports. In fact, I have territories that were historically known as major ports. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:09, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Back to the original question-

I think it defeats the purpose of the table if we have two or three nations indusrializing at the same time. Better to just do one

CourageousLife (talk) 22:17, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

It makes plenty of since given that Britain had the resources to other nations didn't. Having multiple nations industrialize at the same time at different periods sounds pretty fair to me. And back to the matter of Ethiopia, I do have the ports, so does that not mean I get that point along with the other four as well? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:50, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

I think it is highly unfair to have multiple industrial revolutions happen at once. Hailstormer (talk) 23:09, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

The purpose of the chart was to pick one winner CourageousLife (talk) 23:09, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Then you'll have to choose Venice then since it took over most of the globe and destroyed Persia recently. However, that doesn't do anything to solve the problem with the other nations that have met all of the requirements, albiet lower that Venice. You have China, Orissa, and hopefully Ethiopia (provided you actually put it up there given my statements), and then Brandenburg and Rome followed by everybody else. Surely we get to kept our points right? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:14, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Industrialization spreads geographically, not by points CourageousLife (talk) 23:17, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be just as unfair as the multiple nations industrializing at once? Why would Orissa have to wait for industrialization to reach its borders while Russia far below it gets to industrialize beforehand? Orissa had made industrial successes than Russia, yet because it isn't close to Venice it has to wait for a nation with less development to industrialize first? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:26, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

We (Collie and I) have decided to allow Orissa to industrialize one stage after Venice. It quickens the process in Asia dramatically and Ethiopia is likely to be Yellow or Light Green. Scandinator (talk) 14:52, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Why should Ethiopia industrailize that fast? There are other countries that are closer geographically and have more points. CourageousLife (talk) 19:49, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

may i ask how would France stand in the map. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:00, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Industry stuffs
Industrializaiton...that's a thing...regardless of the war we are having right now...bloody idiocy if you ask me OOC, in Character however, Russia has a schizophrenic Tsar and a dept to Rome. IN any case, I would like to know when the Industry map is comming out...and when the industr table will be made...I know industry is set to be soon, but I find it unfair that the top 3 nations are all mods, who can put up points  whenever they cose, and the rest of us have to wait...I'm not accusing anyone of anything other than not realy paying attention to anything but their own nation(oh god that came out wrong)...what is better I guess is not paying enough attention to other peoples natinos...ya...that's better...please update industry table before industry map please...so that all doubts as to the validity and unbiasedness of the table and map be put to rest.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:01, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the chart does reflect modship status. The mods and their allies in-game are all represented higher up on the chart. CourageousLife (talk) 21:11, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Em no. People who talk about what happens in their nations and work on it are represented higher up. And its all locked now, it does not really matter. And for a fact, the Mayans will probably be Orange or Yellow. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:21, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

But it is true the people running this thing have an unfair advantage but that is to be expected as it is in all walks of life. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:25, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Its not like we don't have our own lives outside of PMII. I have a full time job with uni so I can just post points up continuously. I tried to update as many of the other nations as I could but I obviously missed things in their posts. The map will be done in a couple days along with the labelled map. Scandinator (talk) 03:40, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I realise that, all I wanted was a status update...and to ask that you update the table before posting the map.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:40, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to do one on Sunday then. Scandinator (talk) 05:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Koori Union/Rome Coaltition
Total: 44
 * Location: (2+1+1+3+1+2)/= +2
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Strength: (Koori (L), Maori (MV), Normandy (L), Maya (L), Apache (MV), Miskito (MV), Rome (L), Azerbejian (MV) Georgia (MV), Turkey (MV) Perisa (MV), Tehran (MV), Armenia (MV), Quoyunlu (MV), Russia (L),Saami Autonomous Oblast (MV), Grand Principality of Suur-Suomi (MV), Minsk (MV), Astrakhan State (MV), Riga (MV), Tartar State (MV), Hungary (L), Duchy of Wallachia (MV), Kuban (MV),, Somali Sultanate (S), Aquitaine (M), Carthage (M), Cyrencia (MV)): 71/89 = 0
 * Military Development: 8+4+30+12+22+0/6 = ~13
 * Economy: 6+8+30+18+0+0/6 = ~10
 * Infrastructure: N/A (attackers get no infrastructure score)
 * Expansion: -13-1-9-1-0-0/6 = -24/6 = -4
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: 5
 * Edits: 429
 * Time: 20:43 = 24
 * 429/24 x Pi= 56.155968682917554137519750476121
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7+6+8+7+8+7/6 = ~7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -4

United Maharajya Coalition
Total: 66
 * Location: (5+3+3+3+2)/= +3
 * Tactical Advantage: +5
 * Strength: (Maharajya (L), Rajputana (M), Assam (MV), Kuch (MV), Nepal (MV), Mataram (M), Brunei (M), Khmer (M), Cebu (M), Germany (L), Mysore (MV), Luxembourg (M), Italia (L), Yugoslavia (MV), Greece (MV), Bulgaria (MV), Nya Gyptios (MV), Aymaras (MV), Siam (MV), Malacca (MV), Albania (M), Montenegro (M), Levantine Kingdom (M), China (L), Formosa (MV), Tibet (MV), Vietnam (MV), Laos (MV), Shan States (MV), Ethiopia (L), Adal (MV), Warsangali (MV), Yemen (MV), Maynila (MV), Khmer Koch (MV), Wales (L), Scotland (MV), Lincoln (MV), Cornwall (MV), Ulster (MV), Connacht (MV), York (MV): 105/71 = Approx. 1.48
 * Military Development: 14+20+10+8+10/5 = ~12
 * Economy: 16+18+8+10+0/5 = ~10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Edits: 6,487
 * Time: 21:13 = 6
 * 6487/6 x Pi = 3396.5852573061647896511946045557
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 9+9+8+7+7+7/6 = 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2-5-2-0-0-0/6 = ~-1.2

More Discussion
I advise you people not to waste time changing development scores and stuff back and forth as this war inevitability expands. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:03, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

No matter how this war ends, I'm just going to call it the Fail War.

22:50, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

yes! the "fail war" it is!-Lx (leave me a message) 23:32, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

This needs to be a COALITION ALGORITHM. Hailstormer (talk) 01:14, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

This is a coalition algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Now, there are too much leaders.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

You can't time it so that you get nine on the chance and we get zero. Collie will do the chance. Hailstormer (talk) 11:48, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Thats what the numbers said when I did them. The post times are set but the edit count may change if you post more... Scandinator (talk) 12:00, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

hey, for the Military dev/economy Russia has been updating alternating them both for the past forever, and isnt it 2 pts per year of dev. As far as I know, LoD motive is only given if the nation invading has teh express purpose of completely killing the other nation, otherwise, motive is 5, being invaded does not entitle you to a 10 in motive. However, neither side has their developments done right, one would think that they both be higher, expansion also ony goes back 10 years.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:29, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey what happened to our treaty? If you're fighting with the enemy Germany will invade Russia...


 * 21:53, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

My motive is definately LoD, I'm set to lose Constantinople, my third largest city... as well as a swathe of territory in Eastern Europe. Scandinator (talk) 16:14, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I would lose my capital and industrial heartlands. No way am I not getting a 10. Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:18, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

no were not going to kill you Scan, just weaken you. youl be around when done, its not your capitol though, so no LoD, were taking a valuable port, not your capitol. Your not gonna be destroyed though, were just fighting to weaken you, you dont get 10s. you get a 5. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:20, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

And this is a preemptive strike becasue you would do the ultiamte destruction to us, so we can also have it as 10, so shut up and be happy you got 5. NO ONE is getting a 10 DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:22, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Em no. It would be 5 is you invaded Mataram or my colony. You invaded my mainland. Hmm, if its not survival, what is it? Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:32, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Pre-emptive invasion of heartlands is still an invasion of the heartlands. If China was to annex LA and SF would that not be 10? They are the largest centres for the US on the West Coast similar to Constantinople for Italia. Also Lx, you have been expnding into Siberia till 1700. Thus your military and economic score are not counted and only expansion is since doing all three is regarded as multiple turns. You are only allowed one action per turn and in the priority that they go into the algorithm. This priority is expansion>military>economic>infrastructure. Your score is therefore -14 or -15 for expansion. I reckon that we should lay off the poor algorithm and let Kogasa or Collie whom are neutral mods, take over it. Scandinator (talk) 16:55, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

And the opposition location needs to be added up due to all their new allies in the coalition. Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:18, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

No it wouldnt be 10, there not taking thewm over, just taking bits. Were not conquering all of you, just parts and were leaving your heartlands to you, im not taking Italia, the Italian Penninsula is staying under Venetian rule. India your fine, we cant ever conquer all of you, wed nevver be able to hold you downfor more than afew decades. You two are both being insolent and ignoring the algorithm unless it suits you, grow up or well have elections to impeach you until the wars end DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 17:42, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

You cannot edit the algorithim. And the Koori made the mistake of invading my heartlands. Its like the Germans invading the French in WWI. Sure, they only wanted its colonies, but France's existance was still threatened because of the Germans won they could muck about with France. Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:45, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I just did cuz your cheating DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 17:49, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I am not cheating. And where did you get the +10 from in population? That is cheating. I have easily 20 times to population of the Koori, they do not get a +10. Could Seiga please change it? Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:51, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Whomever did chance made a mistake, it is the product of the digits in the time so 21:13 is equal to 6... Scandinator (talk) 18:21, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought it was supposed to be 21 times 13? Hence how I got 273. So I should change it to six then? -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 May 14, 20:29 (CET)
 * Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:23, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

And Constantinople is part of Italia itself. It is an Italian city with hundreds of thousands of Italian citizens. If that and the invasion of the subcontinent do not constitute a 10 then I do not know what does... Also, all players involved in the war are ''' STRICTLY PROHIBITED FROM ALTERING THE ALGORITHM. ''' Only Collie and Seiga are allowed to fix and patch it. Any issues go in the discussion thread aka here. Scandinator (talk) 18:24, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Seiga gave up. Found it too tough. :L [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:26, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, this is going to be hard.for a start, i'll have to get all the development scores of every leader and then dividee it by the quantity of leaders.still, this can be done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:26, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol. Good luck Collie. Its only 15 turns. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:27, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * That was complicated.it might not even be right.still, i tried my best on that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:28, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

were not taking your capitol, you will surivive the war GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULL DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 18:24, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Surviving and life in LoD are two very different things. If I invaded Germany as said I wanted all of Germany except Berlin would it only be 5? No! It would be 10. Now stop altering the algorithm Dean and Imp. Scandinator (talk) 18:28, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

ok thats different, thats obliterating, Scan will keep Italia and Sicily

India will keep a large chunk of India

were not destroying you or trying to kill you

DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 18:30, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Why are you talking about dividing in the algo? The rules make absolutely no mention of this.

'''For a coalition algorithm, all of the nations that have declared full-on war would have their own algorithm section (with them being the leader, their nation age and military buildup, etc.) The real change is for the results. Then, all the nations on each side would be added up together, and the winning side gets to take territory from each nation. However, the nations that do better on each side would get more, while nations that did really bad may be temporarily occupied.'''

I based this attack on these rules, and if they are being disregarded and or are wrong, then this whole thing is extremely unfair. Hailstormer (talk) 20:41, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah...someone forgot to update the rules page.

21:53, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think this war just highlights Dean's stupidity. Yank 21:58, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * There's a sensible voice I haven't heard in a while.


 * 22:02, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * It was a combination of boredom and not knowing how big one of my colonies should be. Anyway, "I just did cuz your cheating". Evidently Dean thinks cheating means "any action I personally don't like". I personally am hoping for him to go AWOL for five days so I can punt his godforsaken Rome out of the game. Yank 00:39, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well we won in the end. And where is that +20 for population. We have an average of 8 digits, while their's is 6. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:59, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don 't think that the averages would count for the multiplication.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:10, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why not. 900,000 is much smaller than 10 Million... :L [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:16, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Not that I'm getting involved in this war I notice that the recent war sections seem to be wrong as does the expansion sections. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:34, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Also let me just mention a few things highlighted in my chats with some of the players: Anyway, yeah, just my 9 pence - <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:16, May 15, 2013 (UTC).
 * Since when was development scores (military, economy and infrastructure) done as an average of coalition leaders? I thought you only did averages of nation age, location and motive as averages. I mean nations in a coalition will have differing nation ages and locations and their reasons for war differ too. But development scores as well? This sort of defeats the purpose of a coalition as say if a strong nation is helping a weak nation against a medium nation, then they'll be equal in an average regardless of the stronger nation's much stronger power. E.g. if USA joins a war to protect the Philippines from Japan, then the scores will be averaged to be equal disregarding the USA's dominance over Japan because it is dragged down by Philippines.
 * Development scores have not been divided by the other side
 * Expansion scores seem to be incorrect
 * Recent war scores seem to be incorrect
 * Bonuses for population and high land haven't been given
 * If players don't agree to cancel this war then I recommend building a table to easily display each nation's individual scores so we can recognise mistakes easier
 * If players decide to cancel this war and return to the status quo, then each nation will have a recent war penalty just no land will change hands.
 * If both players agree, then possible changes to the status quo could be agreed upon. E.g. Rome wants to take Constantinople and Italy wants Persia, then they could agree to swap the lands and we act in game as if they were seized in war. Note that example is bad but it was the first thing I thought of :P
 * If players withdraw from the war, then all they can lose is war reparations. Unless you manage to convince them into giving you something else and they agree as well.

Saxony has joined the war on Italia's side. Callumthered (talk) 00:40, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not giving this war up. Too much at stake.

00:41, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Spoken like a true warrior. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:59, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Several issues with the algorithm. The military and economic scores need to be divided by each other. The Orissa-Italia coalition has a +10 population bonus and a +5 larger colonial empire bonus. Leaving the scores at 23 for the Koori coalition and 54 for the Orissa-Italia coalition. The war has to last 5 years and then all leaders on the Koori coalition collapse. (Sources: Rules and Math) Scandinator (talk) 04:17, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Holy balls CrimsonAssassin (talk) 06:52, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I added Wales to the war! Reximus55 (talk) 11:15, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone who has the time please add Saxony and the Confederation of the Rhine to Italia and Brandenburg's side? I am no good at algorithms ;) Callumthered (talk)

Can we cancel the war, i mean the Koori are the ones who got everyone into there alliance in the first place. And my stupidity YES IM AN IDIOT FOR EVEN LISTENING ok. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 11:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think its fair that you can lead in a war and then bail if you think you are losing regardless if the other side allows it or not. It's like France declaring war on Germany in WWII and then saying in May 1940: "Sacre bleu, the Germans are winning, can we have status quo ante bellum?" Scandinator (talk) 14:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Heck no, I like this war! Why do the losers always whine and complain about the score and this ditch the conflict when they lose? You picked a bad side and you lost. Get over it. Select another nation and just start off over. And to Rex and Callum, the war is over, your nations can't join in the conflict. Besides, the mods locked the algorithim already. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:00, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Exactly. In the real world, there are no algorithms. You fight it out to the end and then you find out who's winning. In the 1700s, anyone who dropped out of the losing side of a war had basically disgraced themselves and deserved no respect. Not to mention that we have troops in almost all of you countries.


 * 23:59, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Um, Scandinators a mod. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:17, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

And? The rules stated plainly that all players must agree to the retcon, and I as well as Imp and Scraw are against it. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

The rules also weren't updated, weren't clearly defined, as well as the fact that there is no precedent to this kind of war. Besides, we shouldn't be bickering about it when it's Collie's decision anyway. CourageousLife (talk) 18:51, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

So let me see if I can understand this. Now that you've lost, all of a sudden you want to "update" the rules? There was appearently nothing wrong with them when people were taking territories all over the place with little problem, but since your nation is at risk of getting annexed, you what the rules to be fixed? And I seriously don't understand how much clearer "Wars can only be retconned if all players involved agree to do so" can be. And there have been many other wars similar to this one. Need I remind you of the war between the Holy Roman Empire and the Caliphate? In that conflict, the losing side said the rules were broken and had to be "fixed", while the winning side said there was nothing wrong with them. Different wars, same bulls**t. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:36, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Please try and be professional about this, because everyone's additudes are flaring up. The fact is that if there is going to be a retcon, the winning side will not consent. The decision whether or not to retcon the game will come from Collie, the only person with the power to override the rules in these circumstances. CourageousLife (talk) 19:54, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I will. But I believe the whole idea of retconning the conflict solely because one side made a bad decision which would result in the loss of the nations is total unfair for the winners, all of whom entered with the same knowledge of the win or die situtation of fighting another group of players. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:58, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Not all of the nations entered with much previous thought. Even though I did declare war on two nations, I was dragged into a gigantic war with other nations who, regardless of whether I declared war or became neutral, would automatically declare war on Normandy and proclaim it a vassal or annex it.It's kind of unfair to the losers as well, when I am being invaded by Wales who may or may not have more of an advanced military than I, but I would never know because this algorithm just piles up the nations in one giant block. With that said, even if Wales had the smallest military in the world, them being apart of the winning coalition autmatically means they can annex whatever they please. Cookiedamage (talk) 20:02, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't a bad decision when looked at in the perspective of the old rules. It got complicated when the rules were not the same, and it went downhill from there. It's not like we declared war because we wanted anything from the other side. Some of our more radical members *cough couch* maye have had their own motives, but most of us were fighting because we needed a solid trade group, and one of our members felt threatened. CourageousLife (talk) 20:07, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, i have noticed that this format of algorythm can't handle world wars.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:09, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * So what does that mean for us? CourageousLife (talk) 20:11, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

On this case, Nothing.even if we turned back to the old way of doing the coalition algorythms, it only would be enforced after this war.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:13, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * So after this war, all other wars would use the old algorithm? Cookiedamage (talk) 20:22, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you use the old algorithm for all future wars, then all the countries lost in this war because of the messed up algorithm now would be lost in a totally unfair situation. You might as well keep the current algorithm, for a while at least, or make a totally new one. Going back to the old one following this war would be terrible, and if you do that why not retcon this already convoluted, messed up war?Cookiedamage (talk) 20:49, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying that we will necessarily turn back to the old way of using the coalition algorythm.i was just saying that this way has been proven kind of flawed for such cases.it seems to work well on other kinds of wars, but it can't handle well wars with too much leaders.what will happen later, is uncertain.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

So will the war continue for now?Cookiedamage (talk) 21:00, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I refer back to one of my 9 points made earlier: in coalition algorithms have development scores (military, economy and infrastructure), recent wars, expansion and motive done as a total of the scores for each one of coalition leaders. Don't do an average. Keep using an average for nation age and location, but nothing else.

I mean nations in a coalition will have differing nation ages and locations and their reasons for war differ too. But development scores as well? This sort of defeats the purpose of a coalition as say if a strong nation is helping a weak nation against a medium nation, then they'll be equal in an average regardless of the stronger nation's much stronger power. E.g. if USA joins a war to protect the Philippines from Japan, then the scores will be averaged to be equal disregarding the USA's dominance over Japan because it is dragged down by Philippines. It also fairly represents the intentions for each coaltion leader in the war for joining a side.

That's what I'd do anyway --<font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:01, May 15, 2013 (UTC).

I kind of agree with this point.In fact i just divided because i thought that we were supposed to divide the development scores too.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:03, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Should we update the rules page then? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:08, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:15, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

The rules page where all of the rules are, add in these ammendments I suggested concerning when to do averages in coalition algorithms. Then people know these rules for future wars. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:24, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yes?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be established that withdrawal should only be possible in wars where the winners are receiving less than 5% of the land and it is a coalition war or only winners can withdraw from a coalition war. Why? Because it's just plain metagaming for losers to withdraw in fear of losing so much.

00:12, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. We might as well fight thin air given that 90% of the losers are trying to withdraw from the war. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:31, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

We're all settling our debts, so you might as well have won. You're probably getting more now than you would have with the algorithm. CourageousLife (talk) 01:33, May 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * We're not winning anything now, to be honest. Why? Because everyone wussed out of the war except the principle belligerent. The Koori Union. What this means is that you guys wasted a whole war and gave recent war scores to everyone.


 * 21:51, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please stop trying to pick fights. CourageousLife (talk) 23:37, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying. 00:07, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

I think Saxony should be allowed to join. I agreed to help Italia in 1701, which was the same year they really realised the Koori had declared war on them. I won't gain anything tangible from the war, but I do want to prove to Italia and Brandenburg that I am a steadfast ally who will assist them whenever they ask. So, could I either be added to the algorithm, or, if that can't be done (I do realise it is a lot of work with the algorithms), can it be aknowledged that I am on the Italian-Brandenburger coalition? Regards, Callumthered (talk) 05:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

'''COULD THIS BE FIXED< WE TOPPLED THE BLOODY OPPOSITION FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:00, May 18, 2013 (UTC)'''

So Long (For Now)
I'm done with PMII for now. I was getting bored with Manchuria, given that all I'd think up to post was colonial expansion. I'll be back in a few days. I just want something different. Yank 20:10, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Noo! Oh man, hope you return soon. :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:45, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah your posts did seem rather "forced". I hope you find more inspiration and motivation for a exciting new nation soon. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Hope to see you back soon - didn't get the chance to interact with Manchuria but would have liked to. Also try the tribal route if you want a challenge, I'm certainly finding it interesting and there's lots of open map. Commandante Lemming (talk) 01:26, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

I have approached  G greg e on potentially taking over Carthage. Is that allowed? Yank 14:49, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Erm well Carthage is already a player nation. Is Greg leaving the game or something? If he is leaving then I don't see why not. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:52, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

I abandoned my efforts to claim Carthage. I'm Lithuania now. Yank 20:01, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Division of land


As you can see, here is how I propose to divide the enemy territory. So, what do my allies think? Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:49, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Some areas have been left out, as we still need to sort out the areas we all claim and get. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:50, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

I already gave up the Miskito Kingdom to Italy as part of the peace agreement. You cannot claim my colonies. CourageousLife (talk) 19:55, May 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Maharajya does not recognise it. And if the winning side does not recognise it, we keep on fighting. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:04, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * The winning side did recognize it. Italy negotiated peace for me. If that's an issue, talk to him. The algorithm will not allow you to take this much land anyway. CourageousLife (talk) 22:21, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Venice and I recognize it, Imp.
 * 22:26, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I appreciate it. CourageousLife (talk) 22:37, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

I already withdrew from the war by 1702 and gave half of my nation to Wales, my whole nation is not going to be annexed.Cookiedamage (talk) 19:56, May 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, that was an error. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:04, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. It's okay. Cookiedamage (talk) 22:16, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

There's still a few Koori islands around Melanesia that you forgot to colour, which I also want. Besides that, it looks good. -Kogasa  2013 May 17, 22:07 (CET)

I annexed New Zealand as a vassal, and I also annexed Sudan into Ethiopia as part of its proper territory as you already know. :P

Aside from that, the map looks pretty sweet. Any map depicting a recent victory is always sweet really. :D Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:59, May 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I know, but we still need an algo for that. What was the year again, and I'll make the algo quickly... :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:05, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * The invasion was in 1703. Thanks. :) Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:59, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Imp, you completely ignored any Germans gains. That part of the Caucasus that went to Venice was given to Germany. I invaded a huge part of the Koori territory and took part of it. And why do you get so much land? I would like to remind you that you would've been slaughtered if not for the Germans and Italians.

22:26, May 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * To be honest, Ethiopia, China, and Scotland were responsible for turning the tide of the war. Plus there were the vassals of all three combined and Orissa's massive population score. Without you and Italia, Orissa would have still carried the day. So let's not inflate your importance now. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:02, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if we add Ethiopia and Scotland, and subtract China, Italy, Germany, and co, there is no difference. However I admit China was a massive aid. As well as the Confederation of the Rhine.
 * 23:06, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you left out China when this diccussion was purely about Germany and Italia, but your point has been noted. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:20, May 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oi! Russia got Gruzia(OTL Georgia) and Azerbaijan from Rome in an official post...Russia owns that now... The Caucasus mountains, and the Germans got the rest of Georgia. a bit like I ammeneded the map..although i was principaly guessing as the divisions were left entirely ambiguous.-Lx (leave me a message) 00:06, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Some of this map is ridiculous, how on Earth does Ethiopia control eastern Turkey? Why would they want that land? I can also see the Persians simply just rebelling away to form a new independent state rather than being controlled by Indians. Also what does China (the strongest of your coalition) actually get? For the strongest nation they seem to get the least to my eyes. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:40, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

China is supposed to get New Zealand and most of the Koori land. Italy and I get some small pieces.

00:41, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Why does China want New Zealand, which I claimed beforehand? Why does Germany want the land it has? Why does anybody want anything? I want the land I claimed, and I don't need a reason why. I claimed it first. And Orissa is the most powerful member of the coalition, as it has more territory, more resources, and better technology, hence the reason Imp gets to draw the map since he was the de facto leader of our side of the conflict. I picked New Zealand and eastern Turkey first, Imp got what he wanted, and so on. And using the same matter of reasoning and you yourselves have, should China expand into Central Asia where little resistance can be found? Surely there is plenty of unclaimed territory for that. If you didn't make your claims before we did, then that really isn;t a matterof concern for me. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:20, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Viva the rules still stay that the outcome of an algorithm can be disregarded if its considered implausible. Can you also request why on earth Ethiopia wants Eastern Turkey for me. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:32, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because I'm a major colonial empire. Because I sent my troops to fight in a war you were going to lose. Because I helped win that war and waste a war point on it I planned for something else. And simply because I want Eastern Turkey and earned it fairly. That's why. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 13:45, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * You should try to take something else. Not to mention you're not very high on the "major" colonial empires list. Venice, Portugal, China, Germany, and Orissa pretty much dominate that list, followed by Russia, France, and Arabia.
 * 19:18, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not choosing anything else. I won it. Besides, I have more vassals and colonies than both Russia and Arabia combined, and more than China by itself. So unless you have something better to offer me, then I'm sticking with my choice. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:25, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Its still out of character Viva, there is no logical reason for Ethiopia to want this land. It is also very uneconomical for them to control too. You wanting it isn't a plausible reason, this is still just an alternative history simulator, and you still have to think what your country wants and how it would benefit it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:37, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why isn't it logical? Germany gave no reason for wanting any of the territories it wanted. Cyprus IRL was too weak and poor to even form a real military force, and yet it has a colony in Africa twice the size of the island itself. It never stated any actual reason why it wanted to build a colonial empire, yet when Ethiopia did, I was still prohibited from colonizing Madagascar, which was right next to Ethiopia. I was told I pushing it by even having a navy. Europe can colonize or take over whatever they want, Asia and colonize and take over whatever they want, yet when Ethiopia has tried to do anything of the sort, I've have to scale mountains and fight tooth and claw just to make the initial effort to attack or colonize. You guys keep coming up with excuses and pulling made up rules out of your collective behinds even time I try to build a colonial empire. Japan is weak and primitve compared to Ethiopia, yet it was a colony in North America. Ethiopia tried to establish a colony in South America, and I was shot down with the mods saying I could tick off Portugal and France. Three decades later and Japan  I'm sorry, Cyprus has the spot I tried to colonize. WTF!?! I'm not giving you a reason or economic report on why or how I want or can sustain the vassal, since I've never seen anyone else have to explain why. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:44, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I mentiond even a few words as to why I want/need Georgia and that small bit of Australia, I'd be screwed. Cyprus is backed by some of the largest powers in Europe. Japan never fell into isolation ATL is is up to date with the world's military technology. Also, You have to round the tip of Africa and then cross all the way around South America to reach that area you wanted to colonize, while Japan crosses the Pacific in one fell swoop. Even though the Pacfic is riddled with storms and stuff, Japan is built of off the survival of that.
 * 22:43, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * You mean in the same way every European country has to travel around the tip of Africa just to get to their massive colonies and vassals? And Ethiopia was backed by Orissa, Bavaria, and Portugal, all very large and crediable powers, when it attempted to start its first colony. And just like Japan, Ethiopia too never fell into isolation, yet everyone seemed to forget that fact. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:22, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * And he is supported by me, who - I might add - is industrialising with Venice. It is completely absurd that Ethiopia does not get a chance to flex its muscles while a country like Cyprus establishes colonies all around the world (no offence to Airlinesguy, you really have played really well in game, lol). He needs crop growing areas and the last time I checked, that area in Turkey is pretty good for crop growing. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:27, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And until those resevoirs are completed, Ethiopia is still at risk for famine. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:08, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, YOU of all people keep forgetting how badly the Caliphate screwed you up. I concede that they screwed up Russia too, but Scandinavia saved them, and Cyprus meandered total devastation.
 * 00:12, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is 1706. Not 1583. Get over it. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 02:10, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * And what? Let me put it this way. I'll use Cyprus as my example. After the Caliphate, Cyprus was 3. You were one. 223 + 3 > 223 + 1
 * 02:18, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * And Orissa, a major power at the time, helped rebuild Ethiopia after that, plus the Caliphate didn't destroy everything as they themselves used the technology and infaustructure left behind. Over the 123 years, a very, very long time, Ethiopia got its strength back, much in the same way Russia, Germany, Japan, and China got there strength back over half a decade in OTL. The invasion only served to give Ethiopians a reason not to be underprepared as they were when the Caliphate took over, and thus did everything in their power to expand and conquer when and wherever possible. They built even bigger warships, greater armies, and stronger fortifications. The Caliphate only helped to make Ethiopia stronger by forcing its populace to build better and greater. Your point has only served to reinforce my own. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:00, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because your point makes complete sense...
 * 03:09, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't want a full economic report Viva, I want a few simply reasons to why you want it. Or why anyone would want it. Especially you who have to sail all around Africa and then through the Mediterean to get to Eastern Turkey - hence if you use it for crop growing, much of the produce will spoil during the long journey at sea. Though I do agree with your point on Cyprus over-expanding. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I do get your point, Von. However, what business does Germany have in the area. Venice, its understandable - same with Russia, but Germany? You need to see it from our point too. And who cares what Dean said. No nation is going to willing give up their territory, surrendering or not. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:21, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, now that I've had a good night's rest, allow me to explain plainly. I don't trust the Arab Federation all that much, and need support in the region along with the resources it can provide, food and minerals included. It is also to help serve as a trophy piece to allow Europe to recognize that Ethiopia is a colonial power worthy of respect, being the only African nation with the power to enforce its will in the Middle East. Plus, I think it to be a fair trade. You got to keep Madagascar, so I get to keep Eastern Antolia. Plus, Italy, Cyprus, and Rome all have to make the same round trip just to get to their own colonies in the Indian Ocean, so why would Ethiopia not be able to do the same? That and the fact that Ethiopia is much closer to the vassal by land than by sea. And Imp is correct on his point as well. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:49, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again I agree, why does Germany want this land? Its too far away to be used for crops, Germany has no historical interest in the land, etc. It should be independent for go to Venice or Russia. Also Dean giving up all that land to Cyprus was a falacy. I think that should be disregarded and it goes to Venice. For the simple reason that you don't give up land like that in real life and also the Cypriots with there all ready massive colonial empire would struggle to control this much more densly populated region. Also your idea of a fair trade is a little invalid as you having Eastern Antolia and Comchellak having Northern Madasgcar aren't really directly related. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yea, all Von has to do is go south by sea, lol. But oh well, atleast Ethiopia is taking steps in the right direction, so that is good. And thank you Von, for explaining my point. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:52, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Italia requests the OTL states of Queensland, NSW, Victoria and Tasmania as well as Valudonia from the Koori Union. We have troops stationed in all five areas. Also the coastline of Rome and any parts of Armenia, Azerbaijian and Georgia that remain as we seek to unify and protect the Orthodox states of Caucasia Scandinator (talk) 01:29, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Russia got the Orthodox staes of Caucasus, Russia should have control of the mountain range...although in this clusterf**k of a war I realy dont know what happened...although by all accounts Russia should have Circaucasia, The Caucasus mountain range, and a small part of transcaucasia as a generous gift from the falling rome to keep orthodox states in orthodox hands. but as I said, this entire war was a gian clusterf**k of diplomatic failure and overall confusion...who knows what happened.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:13, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Italia agrees to drop the claims to Cauasia if Russia promises to protect their cultures and peoples. Italia still demands the Roman coastline and Koori mainland and islands minus NZ. Scandinator (talk) 13:54, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * yes, Russia agrees...(what do you think the Federated Duchy of the Caucasus was all for, besides being a vassal/buffer state)-Lx (leave me a message) 17:46, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Germany is already occupying a small northern part of the Koori mainland. Can I keep that?
 * 19:18, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Rome is just going to cease its existance, Scan annex all of Rome you want, ill just start over. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 15:23, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

everything is still a bit confusing to me... can somebody put a final map of what is happening? anyway, scan, can the bosphorous/path from the black sea to the med be a "joint administration zone" possibly but not necessarily centered in Constantinople?(symbol of co-operation and whatnot)-Lx (leave me a message) 17:46, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Also, Dean has agreed to concede Eastern Anatolia to me in his surrender, so I'll make a map of that.

20:31, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Wales has claimed Tasmania. Reximus55 (talk) 20:55, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I [and Venice] was the one who got invaded, where the hell are all of you coming in an just claiming everything. So Japan gets their colony back, I get N. Island, China and Ethopia half each of S. Island. However, Crim did state he did not want land from the enemy, so Viva will get most of S. Island, while I get a slight bit of northern S. Island. Also, Ethiopia might be be behind others, but he has one of the main victor of the war backing him. So he gets a bit of Turkey. As I go not get much from the Koori, and the Persians suddenly revolt, I'll be laying claim to colonies of other nations who lost in the war. So I recieve Anqitine's colony in South America and other colonies all around the world. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:18, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * You can't get anything from Turkey now, to be honest. Since Italy, Germany, and Russia gained it from the surrender. Here's the map of Turkey.
 * 22:43, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * How, I was fighting them for the whole war! And so was Ethiopia. He'll get a bit of land, and that Persia might just become my puppet... But I'm not saying you won't get any land, so will you - you were a crucial ally too. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:41, May 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Doesn't matter. We got the lands before negotiations ended. So it's ours. Now you'd have to fight us to get it.
 * 00:06, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * If what Imp said was true and we have destroyed all of their nations, I would like Aquitaine and Normandy. Reximus55 (talk) 14:05, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also Imp, Persia rebelled away to be independent. Also what happened to your promise you stop over-expanding? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Aquitane is German-Italian, as we were the only ones directly at war with them.
 * 19:09, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not. Its just pissing me off that powers which cam einto the war later on are gaining more than the starting powers (I mean, what?). And I have not seriosly expanded in coming to around 50 years, I'd say that's pretty good. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:17, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Italy has agreed to recognize my claim on Aquitaine. Reximus55 (talk) 11:03, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why should Orissa stop expanding when Venice and Germany are still carving chucks of territory out of the world? Orissa is a colonial empire, never have I read in any history book where a colonial empire stopped expanding. Even when it was weakening, the British Empire continued to do what it could to secure new lands until it was boxed in by other powerful empires. Same thing with Rome, Persia, Japan, China, the United States, and Russia. No empire ever stops expanding. Its a universal truth. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:34, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The map has been updated. It is a more accurate reflection of gains of the allies. Please have a look. Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:18, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I still see some Koori islands that aren't coloured purple. I'd like to purchase those as well, if it's okay. -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 May 20, 17:23 (CET)

OK, I think we've got a nice map here. However I would like a part of Aquitane as A: I was fighting there and B: I want/need a better access location to the Atlantic. Luxembourg could be trapped in.

21:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Also I'd like to note that Wales has got the second most territory despite joining at the end, while Orissa and Ethiopia fought from the very beginning and gained the least.

22:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Exactly. I mean, what am I meant to do about this? I think I might split up Aquatine as two powers are in the war with interests in the area. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:43, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Between who and who? I actually have a real economically important reason for it.
 * 22:55, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Wait... how did I get southern Turkey? Not complaining, but I'm just wondering, especially after all the Cyprus is overexpanding stuff. (Which, BTW, isn't my fault, more so a flaw in the game :P ) Airlinesguy (talk) 10:57, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure it is because Scan stated that it would be a thank you gift to the Cypriots for not joining in the war against him. Work on controlling your new populace, as you now have a land base. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:43, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow, great! Thanks guys! Do you know their religious situation? Airlinesguy (talk) 05:36, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I believe the mods said that Cyprus won't be able to control the land from Turkey. But if they're fine with it, I am too. 21:19, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I think they were referring to the land around Constantinople which Dean gave to me, which Von called a falacy. I haven't seen anything about Southern Turkey. Airlinesguy (talk) 07:14, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, well that makes sense.

22:55, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think we're done here.

17:29, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Formosa
Is that ok if I take Forsmosa?Daeseunglim (talk) 15:58, May 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Formosa is a Chinese vassal.you got to ask CrimsonAssassin whether you can play as it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:30, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's already claimed. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:44, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Aztecs?
Could I play as the Aztec Empire, controlling from Mexico City to Guatamala? Daeseunglim (talk) 19:23, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

That's Mayan territory right now. I'd be willing to create a vassal out of one of my colonies, if you're interested. CourageousLife (talk) 19:31, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

How about an independent state with its own military, economy, etc., but any diplomatic contact is made through the Mayans and a 2.5% tax is payed to the Mayans?Daeseunglim (talk) 19:42, May 18, 2013 (UTC)



That's basically a vassal. You're a nation, but you would be subordinant to Mayan rule. CourageousLife (talk) 19:44, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I need to know if you accept. If you do, I can have it ready by next turn. CourageousLife (talk) 19:55, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

I accept. Thanks! Daeseunglim (talk) 21:03, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations, you are now the vassal state of Kaliforno. You'll pretty much be allowed to do as you please, unless I give you specific requests. I'll add you to the map in 1710. Until then, here's a map of where you are. CourageousLife (talk) 21:26, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Just sign your name on the sign-ups list, and you'll be good to go. CourageousLife (talk) 21:38, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia
Total: 81
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +8
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Adal (MV), Maylina (MV), Khmer Koch (MV), Yemen (MV), Warsangali (MV): 14/4= +4
 * Military Development: 15/3 = +5
 * Economy: 15/3 = +5
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +6
 * Edit Count: 2420
 * UTC Time: 11:14
 * 2420/4*pi = 1900.66355542195
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Sudan
Total: 36
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: (Sudan (L)): 4/14 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/15 = 0
 * Economy: 3/15 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +6
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Result
((81/(36+81))*7)-1) = 3.8461538461538462% Ethiopia gains 38.46% of Sudanese territory over next seven years. Sudan annexed into the Ethiopian Empire.

Discussion
Viva requested me to make the algo for his war against the Sudanis, so I am making it here. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:36, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

German Conquest of Lanka (1706)
Germans
 * Location: 4 (Mysore)
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Mysore (L), Travancore (MV), Lanka (LV), Germany (M) = 12/4 = 3
 * Military Development: +6
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 6189
 * UTC Time: 20:54
 * (4100/6189)*pi = 0.0203........
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3 (Mysore)
 * Total: 42

Jaffina (same for Sitawska)

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Jaffina (L) = 0
 * Military Development: +5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Economy: +5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Infrastructure: +5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +4
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -0
 * Total: 38

Results
(42/(42+38)*2)-1 = .05

The Germans can take 5% of Raigama and Jaffina.

0.05 * (1-1/(2*3)) = 0.04

The Germans can take 4% of Raigama and Jaffina.

Discussion
It makes total sense for me to only get FOUR percent of these super-small countries that could easily be wiped out in real life. Darn algorithm.

20:21, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

um the Lakota are your vaassal now, we should we in algorithm right? DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 23:23, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

How are the Lakota going to reach all the way to India with no sea access?

23:50, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, you are invading through a company, so it kinda does. Plus, its the 1700s and your nation hasn't industrialised yet. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:59, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Well Sri Lanka wasn't dominated completely by Europeans until the 1800s so this result makes perfect sense in comparsion with real life Scraw. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:38, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose. But I expected something more like 10%-ish. Not too bad for a start.

21:19, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Wales
Total: 64
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 7 (220'-Cardiff)
 * Strength: Wales (L), Cornwall (MV), Lincoln (MV), York (MV), Scotland (MV), Ulster (MV), Connacht (MV), Munster (MV) = 18/4= 4.5 ~ 5
 * Military Development: 10/2.5 = 4
 * Economy: 10/2.5 = 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 4
 * Edit Count: 545
 * UTC Time: 4:32
 * (545/24)*pi= 7.34033
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Leinster
Total: 38
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0 (240'-Dublin)
 * Strength: Leinster (L) = 4/18 = 0
 * Military Development: 5/2 = 2.5
 * Economy: 5/2 = 2.5
 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = 2.5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
I will let the war run 4 years, and then topple the government and institute a pro-Welsh noble as King of Leinster.
 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1
 * ((64/(38+65))*2)-1
 * 0.2549019607843137
 * 1 year - (1-1/2) *  0.2549019607843137 = 0.22745
 * 2 years - (1-1/(2*2)) * 0.2549019607843137 = 0.29117
 * 3 years - (1-1/(2*3)) * 0.2549019607843137 = 0.31241
 * 4 years - (1-1/(2*4)) * 0.2549019607843137 = 0.34304

Discussion
Your calculations are making no sense.if you are going to calculate how much territory you will gain, it will always be a number below the original number, and in fact, if the war was to last one year, you only would get half the original number.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:58, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Korea
Since I've been away from the game for a while don't plan on contributing, I see it high time I gave someone Korea so as to keep the game going smoothly. Since he controls neighboring territories and would more than likely be the one to take it, I give Korea to CrimsonAssassin. I'm sure the mods will have a nice way to give him control. In the mean time, I do plan on watching, so have fun with your new territory Crim, and to everyone else, make it interesting. Have fun gents. R&#39;lyeh96 ( talk ) 19:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

You were already disabled due to a more than five day inactivity and I made Korea a protectorate of the German East Asian Trade Company.

21:16, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure that would not be allowed. Just saying. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:29, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * What would not be allowed?
 * 21:36, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems slightly far fetched. If the mods are ok with it, then no problem by me. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:38, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering the power of China in the region and how Germany is trying to incorporate lots of new territories into its empire, I think this is a step too far and you've over extended yourself Scraw. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:55, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm...
 * 00:00, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Russia
<p style="font-size:13px;">Total: 72
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 6(attacker+colonies)
 * Strength: Russia(L)/Minsk(M)/Suur-Suomi(M)/Riga(MV)/Tatar State(MV)/Astrakhani State(MV)/Federated Duchy of the Caucasus(SV)Norwegian Dependancy(SV)/Italia(S) (too far to send troops)/Yugoslavia (SV)/Greece(SV): 22 / 4 = 5.5 ~ 6
 * Military Development: 18/3 = 6
 * Economy: 10/3 = 3.3 ~ 3
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit Count: 2292
 * UTC Time: 20:24 = 2*2*4=16
 * (2292/16)*pi= 450.033
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28(8+20)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Kuban Cossacks
<p style="font-size:13px;">Total: 37
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 19+/3 = 0
 * Military Development: x/3 = 0
 * Economy: x/3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit Count: 2292
 * UTC Time: 20:24 = 2*2*4=16
 * (2292/16)*pi= 450.033
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
72+37 = 109

Clear Russian Victory. Russia can take at most ((72/109)-0.5)*2*100% = 32.11% of the Kuban territory. Russia is able, with a 3 year war, to take 32.11*0.833= 26.75833% of Cossack territory. What pixelage that is is beond me...

Discussions, Discussions...
I'll let you know once I get back home. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:11, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

France
Total = 57
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: France(L), La Marche (MV), Switzerland(MV), Tyrol(M), Lorraine(MV), Occitania(MV), Aragon (MV), Castille (MV), Portugal (M), Granada (MV), León (MV), Navarra (MV): 28/4 = 7
 * Military Development: 12/2 = 6
 * Economy: 6/2 = 3
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 4420
 * UTC Time: 20:50
 * (4420/10)*pi= 1388.58395
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Puppets: -1

Toulouse
Total: 29
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Toulouse (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 2 = 0
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -6

Result
57/86 -0.5 x 2 = 0.3225581395

France has right to 32,2% of Toulousain territory.

with the 11,1% and 14,5 % gained from the first two wars, the war can last one year, in order to topple the Toulousain government.

Discussions
The editcount number used for chance is mine.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:54, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sultanate of Baghdad
Total: 49
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: Baghdad (LV), Arabian Federation (M), Caliphate (M), Kuwait (MV), Maldives (MV), Mysore (MV), Georgia (MV), Lanka (MV), Travancore (MV): 21/4 ~ +5
 * Military Development: 14/1 = +14
 * Economy: 4/2 = +2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 4,027
 * UTC Time: 01:18 - 8
 * (4027/8)*pi= 1581.399202
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Persia
Total: 37
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Strength: Persia (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 1 = 0
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +9
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +9
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((49/(37+49))*2)-1 = 0.13953488372 - so maximum that can be gained is 13.95%

(13.95)*(1-1/(2*5)) = 12.56% of Persia's 19,735 pixels which is equivalent to 2,479 pixels. Baghdad gets 2,081 pixels and Germany's vassals get 408 pixels.

Discussions
Okay Dimurats you're joining right? And note with my algorithm, if it hasn't got a plus or minus sign then its not been done in the algorithm yet (e.g. strength). <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:36, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently they entered against you.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:36, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Huh that's weird. I suspose I've been betrayed then. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:26, May 23, 2013 (UTC

I added the German Eastern/Asian Trade Company nations involved into it.

22:52, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

So Netherlands, Germany and Dimurats - my allies. It seems we will win this war and I will be posting a map up soon showing the border changes I purpose. For help in this war, you'll be on favourable terms to pursue an alliance or trading pact with the Muslim bloc. The map opposite shows you what the current situation is regarding the division of Persia. The map has Baghdad's claims to Persia on it, that leaves 752 pixels between you guys. If you want more land then I suggest you enter the war as a coalition leader to boost up our score. <font color="#000000" data-rte="" h3=""> -attribs=" color=#000000"&gt;VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:17, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

When did the Netherlands and the Dimurats join us?

19:54, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I've been talking to them via their talk pages about it, they should be on board. If I get no reply from them then I'll remove them from the algorithm and you get that full 752 pixels or whatever it changes to after they leave the algorithm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:23, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

OK.

00:27, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

I've taken them out and I'm using my however many pixels left. Could you calculate it?

16:51, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Okay done, your vassals get 408 pixels. Seeing how the new map for 1715 shows your vassals in a bit of a different light (a much more plausible one I add), I'd suggest you use those 408 pixels to expand Georgia. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:51, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm expanding 308 pixels to the Caspian and 100 pixels along the Persian coast for the Company.

21:48, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

The Republic of Comchellak
Total: 41
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: Comchellak (LV), Arabian Federation (M), Caliphate (M), Kuwait (MV), Maldives (MV), Italia (S): 15 = 0
 * Military Development: 14/6 = +2
 * Economy: 8/4 = +2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 4,027
 * UTC Time: 01:18 - 8
 * (4027/8)*pi= 1581.399202
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Wales
Total: 41
 * Location: +1
 * Tactical Advantage: +5
 * Strength: Wales (L), Cornwall (MV), Lincoln (MV), York (MV), Scotland (MV), Ulster (MV), Connacht (MV), Munster (MV), Leinster (MV), Brittany (MV), Fulani (MV), Mononobe Shogunate (S): 26/15 = +2
 * Military Development: 6 = 0
 * Economy: 4 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +6
 * Edit Count: 621
 * UTC Time: 1:18 - 8
 * (621/8)*pi= 243.8661297535
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +9
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6

Result of this war
Draw, nothing changes after 2 years of fighting.

Discussions on this war
Yes the peaceful nation of Comchellak that hasn't started a war in its 116 year history of being an Arabian vassal has now cut loose! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:50, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

How does Wales has -7 in recent wars?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:57, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

-4 from the war against Leinster and then -3 for that big world war thing. I went through his past posts to make sure. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:40, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

I also want to know why they've now got +7 for their tactical advantage score, They get +5 for the larger colonial empire and thats it. When your fighting a nation halfway across the world in your colonies, then the height of your capital won't matter. Especially when I'm trying to capture this one colony of his and nothing else. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:52, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

No idea. the supposed "2 for high ground" was here before i edited the algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:48, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

It should only be 3 years for Leinster's war. We started it in 1707, and it ended in 1709. Anyway you look at that, it is 3 years. Also, for the Great War, we declared war in 1702, and our involvement as a leader (vs York and Normandy), ended with the Yorkish capitulation in 1704, which is only 2 years. '''It should only show 5 years, not 7. '''Reximus55 (talk) 18:53, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * No on the algorthim you clearly state that the war lasts for 4 years. If it lasts for 3 years then you wouldn't have been able to overthrow Leinster. Your results working out proves that. As for the great war I've re-checked your posts for the time and seems I got the number wrong. Your right its 2 not 3. But the Leinster war was still 4 years, so thats -6 recent war score. There is also your war against the Koori's in 1704 <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:55, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

We should also have a number of infrastructure points, somewhere around 6, since we have had years of building and construction of infrastructure since 15 years ago, 1695, which is when I began playing as Wales. Finally, our form of government hasn't changed in 200 years, so we get a +5, not -5. This needs to be reflected in our score, so I will added 6 points to infrastructure. Reximus55 (talk) 19:01, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * You can only gain 1 point per year for either military, economy, expansion, war or infrastructure. You have 6 years of war and the remaining 9 years you mention infrastructure in 4 turns. So thats then 5 points to split between military or economic development.


 * And your government did change because the Dutch invaded and forced a union in 1692. That was a change in government. In fact you declared an empire in 1705 so that should really be the last government change. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:55, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * That is not a government change. The rules clearly state, "last major change in the system of government." Our system of government hasn't changed throughout this entire time. We have always had a semi-autocratic, absolutist monarchic rule. As a result, or government hasn't changed, although our King has declared himself an emperor, the way the government functions hasn't changed at all. Reximus55 (talk) 00:35, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * In addition, I have 10 secondary nations (Cornwall, Lincoln, York, Scotland, Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Brittany, and Fulani), each of which gain me an additional 0.5 turns per post, therefore I can have 6 total turns in a post. So, if I spend 1 turn on Military (which I do), 1 turn on economy (which I do), and 1 turn on infrastructure (which I often do), then that would come down to a higher score for economy, infrastructure, and military dev. Reximus55 (talk) 00:43, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * No one plays by that secondary nation rule. Hence we post as our vassals. Your explanation of the rules concerning nation age also completely ignores what I said about the Netherlands changing the government following their invasion in 1692. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:13, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Netherlands did not change the system of government. We only had a royal wedding, which entered the two nations into a Dynastic Union (technically, though I tend to pretend we aren't in one anymore). It is like saying the King of England marries the Queen of the Netherlands. In this situation, no government change would take place, although it may be possible that the King and Queen rule each nation together as 1, but they would need to change the laws and thus change the government. They simply forced a royal marriage, not a chane in the system of government. Reximus55 (talk) 12:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

<Cough cough> Vassals cannot lead wars. They can only lead if the main nation is in a coalition algo with the vassal. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:27, May 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * No mention of that in the rules page Imp. Not to mention there is no reason why a vassal can't do its own wars. It makes less sense that they can't. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:55, May 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly.For example, in my war against Aragon in the 1660's, Portugal had no reason to lead that war, but since Castille, that had a reasonable excuse, was a vassal, i had to make Castille declare war first, and then Portugal somehow ending up leading the war.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:59, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Anyway at the moment the algorithm makes no sense, the recent war score is confirmed to be 6. So that means Wales has 9 points to spread over military, economy and infrastructure. Infrastructure was mentioned 4 times by Wales in the last four years so that leaves 5 points to split between military and economy. So what is it going to be? I've fixed it in the most logical way: +4 infrastructure, 3 for military and 2 for economy. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:07, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

As far as population goes... my population is in the 7 digits (1,000,000+). Since your population is in the 6 digits (100,000+), my population is 5-10x greater than your own, which would give me a population score of 17. It is obvious that Wales, along with both British Isles, Brittany, and all of our colonies is more than ten times the population of a small nation on a small island. Madagascar, in OTL, had only a max. population of 2 million in 1900, so in 1710, it couldn't have a population close to that of all of Wales. Reximus55 (talk) 00:51, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I estimate my population as being just over a quarter of a million, yours at just over a million. So its not more than 5 times larger. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:13, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think my population would be more than 5x as large as the population of some small Madagascar republic. All of the British Isles and Brittany and Fulani are in the war for Wales, so its like saying 11 nation have less than 5x the population of 1 nation. I think that needs to be changed back. Reximus55 (talk) 12:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Let us make peace. The algorithim is tied, so let us make peace. I will be gone, and I ask that no results are declared official until I return (unless he agrees to a white peace). I would like to be able to argue over the validity of his points and the rules and what they say. I know my side of the algorithim better than he knows my side. Reximus55 (talk) 12:19, May 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well it does seem to be a draw. Yeah the outcome is a draw after 2 years of war. Let's close the book on this matter. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:49, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

OK, I think the problems in the algorithm are starting to get very evident. Wales is the only strong nation in its entire "empire" but since it has all these puny vassals, it still gets +2 for all of them in military score (before division), despite most of them lacking the capacity to sustain or even own challenging militaries.

17:10, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

A break
So, I will be away from this Saturday to next Sunday. Just a heads up so my nations do not fall apart through Mod events, lol. I might ask someone to post for me, if I can. So yeah. I'll be back son enough though, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:30, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

The same for me. Summer Break has just begun for me, so I have asked Kogasa (Seiga) to post for 4 days for me. Reximus55 (talk) 21:43, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Cyprus and allies
Total: 53
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: Cyprus (L+4), Crete (MV+2), Venice (S+2), Levantine Kingdom (S+2), Mayan Empire (S+2), Bulgaria (MV+2), Greece (MV+2), Hungary (S+2), Italia (S+2), Yugoslavia (MV+2), Malacca (MV+2), Siam (MV+2), Aymara (MV+2) = 28 = 28/7 = 4
 * Military Development: +16 = 16/4 = 4
 * Economy: +10 = 10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit Count: 442
 * UTC Time: 00:47 = 4*7=28
 * 49.592284031
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6 +2
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Cyrenaica
Total: 34
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Cyrenaica (L+4), Carthage (M+3) = 7 = 0
 * Military Development: +4 = 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 402
 * UTC Time: 00:47 = 4*7 = 28
 * 45.104294526
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -1 (Great War)

Results
((53/(34+53))*2)-1 = 0.218390894 = Cyprus can claim a maximum of 21% of Cyrenaican territory.

( 0.218390894)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.16379317505 = 16% of Cyrenaican territory. Adding this to the 25% from last war, Cyprus gains over 33.3% of Cyrenaican territory, toppling the Carthigian government, and is now a vassal of Cyprus.

Discussion
Please fix my mistakes if there are any :P Airlinesguy (talk) 02:01, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Break
Hey guys, I need a break from the site for a week or so to deal with real life issues. Imp is posting for me while I'm gone.. Scandinator (talk) 12:25, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

Imp is on break as well...

18:48, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

O wait. I misread the message. I'll get Lx to post for me then as our nations are in PU. Scandinator (talk) 09:10, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

Just a notice that the next two days I will also be on a sort of break. I may end up posting but if I'm a good student I won't and instead revise for the rest of these next 2-3 days as I finish my exams. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

Gibraltar

 * Location: (5+3+3+3)/4 = +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +6 (attack and colonies)
 * Strength: Gibraltar (L), Aquatine (L), Luxembourg (L), Denmark (L) = 16/4 = +4
 * Military Development: +3 (all) - 12/5= +2
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +1
 * Edit Count: 6243
 * UTC Time: 1:39
 * (27/6243)*pi = 0.013........
 * Nation Age: +0
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Total: 38

Morocco

 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Strength: Morocco (L) = 0
 * Military Development: 5/0 = 0
 * Economy: +5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Infrastructure: +5
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +3
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -0
 * Total: 43

Results
Moroccan victory

Discussion
Actually, given the events around Morocco's history on this TL, the capital most likely would be Fez.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:39, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

You don't divide infrastructure and you added up Morrocco's score wrong. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

This is complete bullshit. Can I retcon the war?

22:14, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Morocco motive is 10, location must be 5, and why Gibraltar tactical advantage is 6? also location of all atackers leaders must be less then 5 Quashi (talk) 23:50, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

No, motive is 5, I want some land, location is 4 because Casablanca is a fair deal away from Tangier and/or Gibraltar, 6 for attacker's advantage and greater colonial area (Luxembourg).

01:11, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah if the capital isn't at risk then its 4 for Morrocco, but seeing how this a coaltion war (I didn't notice that first time round), you got to do average scores for location, motive and nation age. Also I think you've done the recent wars part wrong for your coaltion. Anyway it seems Morocco has won and no Scraw, you can't just retcon the war. That's cheating. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:02, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I certainly don't see any plausible ending with Morocco winning. Gibraltar is very economically viable port and heavily grounded in Germany, also nothing can realistically be taken from Luxembourg, Aquatine, or Denmark, so basically it is a nothing war.

20:48, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well yeah they win but you are treated as being at war during the past 3 years, causing a penalty for future algorithms. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:21, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

No problem with that.

23:00, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia
Total: 60
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +8
 * Strength: Ethiopia (L), Adal (MV), Maylina (MV), Khmer Koch (MV), Yemen (MV), Warsangali (MV), Southern Maori Kingdom (MV), Tasmania (MV), Yoruba (MV): 20/4= +5
 * Military Development: 2/5 = 0
 * Economy: 2/5 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -4
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +6
 * Edit Count: 2431
 * UTC Time: 18:52 - 1*8*5*2 = 80
 * 2431/80*pi = 95.46514676096613
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -9

Kitara
Total: 48
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: (Kitara (L)): 4/20 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/2 = +3
 * Economy: 3/2 = +3
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +5
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((60/(48+60))*2)-1) = 0.11111111111

War lasts 2 years until 1716. Ethiopia can claim (11.11)*(1-1/(4)) = of Kitara.

Discussion
No you did the NPC scorres wrong and the location. Also your recent war score missed out the Great World war and your 7 year war against Sudan. That's at least a score of -9 meaning you can't have your military and economic scores as high as 6 years each due to not being able to develop stuff due to the war. Which then if we factor in your 4 years of expansion leaves with two years left to develop your military and or economy. This algorithm is laughably biased. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:54, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It isn't laugable since I don't keep a record of my wars, expansions, and conquests. I just go on what I remember. Nice to see that you've learned to read minds though. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:05, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

You should check your posts from the past 15 years and not put down things you want into the algorithm. That's cheating just putting in random numbers so you win. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:51, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't put in random numbers, I put in numbers I knew for a fact I had. Like my military score should be six since I ended my war with Sudan in 1710. So my econ and military scores should be five. And I don't know why Kitara has five for its military/economy score when they should be three as the rules made clear. Please explain why the NPC score keeps getting higher everytime player attacks them, because there is no reason why Kitara's is higher than Ethiopia's.

And thank you for the algorithim fix. Using my rudimentary mathemathics, I can get Kitara next year. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:56, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well actually I made a mistake for the NPC score, I did it as 2 points per year and then divided it by two, rather than just 1 point per year and then divide by two. So my apologises.

However it clearly says on your algorithm for the Sudan war that is lasted 7 years. It started in 1703 and ended in 1710, so 7 years. This war started in 1715 and that 7 year was within the 15 years period before this war started. The 2 years as a leader in the Great War was also within this period. Leaving you with 6 years when you weren't at war. You didn't post in 1714, and you expanded Ethiopia in 4 of these years (1710, 1711, 1712, 1713).

Meaning that through even closer examination of your past posts you didn't develop any of your military or economy because you're points for the algorithm were spent on wars and expansion.

So in conclusion during the last 15 years you were at war with Sudan 1703-10, and warring with the Koori union & stuff in 1701-02, you expanded in 1710-13, didn't post in 1714. Plus you expanded in 1700 and 1702 too. So in reality you have no military or economic development that effects the algorithm scores as they were negated by your expansion and warring. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:18, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, now while most of that makes sense, you understand that nearly everyone expands their nation and develop their military and economy in the same turn, and use the points in their algorithim. If you remove my points, you'd have to do the same for all algorithims on the page. If you look at each year and turn, you'd see what I mean. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:07, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Well yeah I will. Obiviously I can't go back and recton all the war algorithms which were illegal, but I am taking a more close look. I mean look at the Russia algorithm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:03, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. I totally understand what you mean. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:35, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Well Viva, I am back lol. So - make the war last two years, and take what you can. Then build up in the next 20 years and return - having no wars between those periods, and no expansion of mainland Ethiopia either. This will mean you will stand a better chance in toppling their government. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:37, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Bavarian Coalition

 * Location: 2 (Bavaria), 3 (Georgia) - (2+3)/2= +3
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: Bavaria (L), Salzburg (MV), Gibraltar (L), Austria (LV), Georgia (LV), UMSHM (M), Confederation of the Rhine (MV) = 21/?=?
 * Military Development: +12
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:

Total:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time: 11:15 - 1*1*1*7 = 7
 * 2338/7*pi =
 * Nation Age: +5 (Bavaria), -5 (Georgia), +5 (Gibraltar), +5 (Austria) - 10/4 = +3
 * Population:
 * Participation:
 * Recent Wars:

Cyrenacia
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation:
 * Recent Wars:

Result
Incomplete, my allies need to post their respective strengths.

I am really not good at this,Andr3w777 (talk) 22:29, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I have attempted (and probably failed) to add Saxony and the Confederation of the Rhine to the algorithm, but I am unsure what to divide the strength score by.

Could a mod with the time please assist with this (and the rest of the algorithm, if they have the time)? Thanks, Callumthered (talk) 09:54, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Wait why are you invading me? :( What did I do to deserve this? :( Please invade Carthage instead so I can support? Airlinesguy (talk) 11:23, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I didnt realize you owned it, the map shows it as a grey area?Andr3w777 (talk) 16:24, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I captured it a few years ago, but it isn't shown on the map yet. 180.148.68.222 22:21, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

^ Me forgetting to log in. :P Airlinesguy (talk) 22:25, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah this is rather bad, it helps if you give me development scores. But location, nation age and motive are averages of the individual score of each coalition member.

But if you are now actually invading Cyrenacia but some other nation (I see confusion in the discussions here), I'll wait until it is confirmed who the war is actually involving before getting involved. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:29, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Von, currently I am in negotiations to see exactly what is happening, I may end up reconning the events as I didn't want war with Airline's nation.Andr3w777 (talk) 22:33, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Russia
Total: 66
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 6(attacker+colonies)
 * Strength: Russia(L)/Minsk(M)/Suur-Suomi(M)/Riga(MV)/Tatar State(MV)/Astrakhani State(MV)/Federated Duchy of the Caucasus(MV)Norwegian Dependancy(SV)/Italia(S) (too far to send troops)/Yugoslavia (SV)/Greece(SV): 25/ 4 = 6.25 ~ 6
 * Military Development: 14/3 = 4.66~5
 * Economy: 10/3 ~ 3
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit Count: 2303
 * UTC Time: 13:05 = 1*3*5=15
 * (2303/15)*pi= 482.339
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28(8+20)
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Kuban Cossacks
Total: 40
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 19+/3 = 0
 * Military Development: x/3 = 0
 * Economy: x/3 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit Count: 2303
 * UTC Time: 13:05 = 1*3*5=15
 * (2303/15)*pi= 482.339
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Result
Total Russian Victory.Russsia can take at most (66/106)-0.5)*2 *100%= 24.5%. The Russians can completely annex the Kuban region in less than a year since 24.5/2 = 12.25 and 12.25+26% > 33.3%

Discussions, Discussions, more Discussions...
Okay that makes no sense as you only get 1 point per development year. You get 15 years to do so, and 3 of those you were at war and another 3 you expanded. Leaving you with 9 years, but you've spent 7 and 5 years on military and economic development. Ergo this isn't allowed by the rules and is cheating. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:25, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

dont jump to bloody conclusions this just means that I'm bad at math. Doesn't change the result in any case...so...ya...I still own them in their entirety. fix it if you want it doesn't change a thing.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Boundary dispute - rule clarification needed
Wales is claiming to already own land onto which I have expanded. This land has never been mentioned by Wales, which has built a colony of unspecified location "on mainland Atlantia". I would seek clarification regarding the location of colonies of unspecified location, and whether such unspecified colonies can be used to block other players by deciding after the fact that they are in exactly the location I claimed.

~ Selknam

I'm not sure if my opinion counts, but I believe that the Selknam have the right to the land.

03:02, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

So Wales is claiming land that Selknam controls? Of course they can do that, but it doesn't change the fact that Selknam controlls the land. Claiming land is more of a formality between players and something which nations do in-game, but it has no rule binding nature. E.g. say Wales claims the land north of Selknam, then Selknam can still expand into the land as Wales doesn't actually control it. But they risk pissing off Wales obviously.

However if Wales was to have an actual colony and Selknam tries expanding into the colony then that isn't allowed unless it's an act of war, then you have to do the algorithm & stuff.

TLDR: can't expand into land another nation controls and claims are just formalities and you can ignore claims of other nations. But beware that ignoring claims will likely piss off the other nation and war could break out or they cancel an alliance or whatever. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:12, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Wales had a colony of unspecified location "on mainland Atlantia" (no other details listed). I  expanded onto a piece of land which I specified, after which Wales claimed that they already controlled that land despite not having mentioned it, and that I could not build there under the rules.

I want to know whether I can build there or whether Wales is there already.

I also would like to resolve Wales claim that it is legal to build colonies of unspeified location, and then decide later that their colony already exists wherever I chose to expand. (basing the location of their colony on my building a).

Essentially I built a colony, and because they had built an unspecified colony a few turns earlier, they claim the ability to not specify the location of their colony, then decide LATER that their colony pre-existed mine. Personally I would like to abolish unspecified "ghost colonies".

Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:43, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think that Wales isn't there.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:22, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Here is my reasoning - and no, its not only to block the Selk'nam. We are great allies and trading partners with the Selk'nam, so it would only be logical for us to be located directly bordering them. Why would we expand far away from our trading sources rather than right next to them? Also, this map I made on May 28. (From the 1715 Map, I added future colonial growth to show it.) http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:PMII1715.png Go to file history, and then to my edit. Reximus55 (talk) 08:34, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Alright!
So folks, I'm back. Anybody cre to bring me up to speed please? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:27, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

China
Total: 75
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6
 * Strength: China (L), Vietnam (MV), Laos (MV), Formosa (MV), Tibet (MV), Manchuria (MV), Myanmar (M): 17/4=4
 * Military Development: 16/2= 8
 * Economy: 16/2= 8
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 2045
 * UTC Time: 23:22= 24
 * 85.21*pi= 267.6898...
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 29
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Uyghur Khanate
Total: 37
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Uyghur Khanate (L): 4:0
 * Military Development: 2=0
 * Economy: 2= 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Chinese victory. China may claim 33.92% of Uyghur Khanate. If the war lasts for 10 years, China may take 32.224% of the territory.

Implausible?
How are nations like Wales expanding so quickly with colonies. I mean 10000km? And how have the mods not noticed this? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:47, June 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because that is not a colony. The Fulani are Welsh puppets.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:27, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

It bugs me more the English who used to rule over Wales for centuries still haven't risen up against the Welsh who are managing to rule over hundreds of thousands more people with their small population. I really wanna see Wales and England form an United Kingdom because the current situation is implausible. I'm still mad at when England was broken up into multiple states. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:10, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yea, I agree with Von. I personally think the mods should just give Wales a warning right now. This whole "Welshification" thing is pretty implausible. 19:38, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

In addition to what Von said, I am working on a United Kingdom. If you haven't noticed, I have recently consolidated my empire, so that instead of tons of tiny states of Alban (OTL Albion), we have 5 Kingdoms and Brittany (makes 6). I have consolidated: In TTL, the Celtic population of Alban (Welsh, Irish, Scottish) all outnumber the Germanic Anglo-Saxons. To prevent discrimination, etc., I have created the Kingdom of England, where all Germanics in Alban can live, while ethnic Celts can live in their native Kingdoms.
 * Cornwall -> Wales
 * Lincoln and York -> England
 * Ulster and Connacht -> Belfast
 * Munster and Leinster -> Cork

There are about 3 million Welsh, 2 million Scots, 2 million Irish, 1 million Bretons, and 2 million Anglo-Saxons. This shows that the Anglo-Saxons are outnumbered by their Celtic counterparts by 8:2, or only 20% of Wales isn't Celtic. See: http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/englishmain.html, http://www.localhistories.org/population.html, and http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/british.htm for statistics. Reximus55 (talk) 19:24, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Just unite the whole nation. Better for you.

01:23, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

And you just divided Germany into a ton of smaller states why, then? Reximus55 (talk) 21:16, June 5, 2013 (UTC) (PS, I am working on eventual unification, but I would find it implausible for that to happen under only 1 ruler.)

I had to divide Germany because I rule four major ethnic groups and house four or five different religions. However, I can keep them together, peaceful, and stable when I separate Scandinavia and Germany and Poland. You, on the other hand, have the capability of create a majority Celtic-Catholic state, especially given that there were only three-ish nations back in the day.

21:28, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Ethiopia & Maharajya
Total: 40
 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: +2
 * Strength: (Ethiopia (L), Adal (LV), Maylina (LV), Khmer Koch (LV), Yemen (LV), Warsangali (LV), Southern Maori Kingdom (LV), Tasmania (LV), Yoruba (LV), Maharajya (L), Rajputana (M), Assam (MV), Kuch (MV), Nepal (MV), Khmer (M), Cebu (M), Mataram (L), Brunei (M)): 54/113 = +0
 * Military Development: 58/178 = 0
 * Economy:  76/70 = +1
 * Infrastructure: +14
 * Expansion: -38
 * Motive: +47
 * Chance: +4
 * Edit Count: 2,559
 * UTC Time: 19:40 - 1*9*4 = 36
 * 2,559/36*pi = 0.0441959107187339
 * Nation Age: -1
 * Population: +11 (3.3 times bigger so +2 bonus)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -13

Arabian Federation & its German allies
Total: 75
 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Arabian Federation (L), Comchellak (MV), Levant (M), Caliphate (L), Baghdad (MV), Kuwait (MV), Maldives (MV), Germany (26) [Georgia (L), Mysore (L), Korya (LVW), Travancore (LV), Lanka (LV), Luxembourg (M), Aquatine (M), Chimu (MV)], Salzburg (SV), Bavaria (L), Saxony (LW), Dimurats (L), Munster (MW), Lorraine (SW), Bar (MW), Metz (SW), Sandgau (SW), Strassburg (MW), Palatine (MW), Mainz (SW), Westphalia (SW), Berg (SW), Cologne (MW), Cleves  (SW), Limburg  (SW), Anhalt (MW), Netherlands (L), Oldeburg (MV), Liege (MV), Iceland (MV) , Dutch Persia  (MV), Kongo (MP), Acech-Pasai (MP), Wales (L), Scotland (M), England (M), Belfast (M), Brittany (MV), Cork (MV), Morocco (MV), Welsh Royal Coast (MV), Mayan (M), Norway (L), Denmark (L), West Brandenburg (L): 127/54 = +2
 * Military Development: 256/58 = +4
 * Economy: 70/76 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: +58
 * Chance: +3
 * Edit Count: 4,073
 * UTC Time: 19:40 - 1*9*4 = 36
 * 4,073/36*pi = 355.436302169
 * Nation Age: +2
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -20

Result
If the curent results are not subject to revision,

((64/(33+64))*2)-1 = 0.3

The German-Arabian coalition has right to 3x% of the Ethiopian coalition depending from how much the war will last. So far the war has lasted 6 years.

(3x)*(1-1/(2*6)) = 3x

General discussion about this algorithm
Two words. Bad move  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:21, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I've wanted all of Yemen for sometime, now seeing how Ethiopia has been expanding & warring too much, I saw my opportunity of it being vulnerable to attack. It seems to me to be a good move. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:27, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well, he is my closest ally. I will be involved mate... Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:33, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I want to get involved in this, but I don't want to ruin my relations with India and risk losing Mysore.

19:39, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Join and you get as much as India as you want. I only want Yemen and if things go well enough, the Ethiopian colony north of my Zanj coast colony. I have no qualms with India and I wonder why he was qualms with me. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:43, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

You are invading my most trusted ally. If you went through with this diplomatically, I would have been sure he would have gien you Yemen if u offered your Zanj colony. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:44, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I seriously doub that. I mean come on, this is the same guy who was going to invade China. He is a bad ally for you, dragging you into lots of trouble. Cast him aside and you'll have a lot less problems. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:47, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Invading China is just a really bad move right now.

19:50, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

It's always a bad move, and Imp wants to be allies with someone who thinks its do able. In fact I could get China joining this war so they take back their Philipeanes colony. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:52, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

After running a mock algorithm, I decided to declare my support for Arabia. Sorry Imp, your falls at my (or Scan's) hands were inevitable.

19:58, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

If they are leaders then I'll have to make some tweaks to make this a coalition algorithm. One moment please. And thanks for your support Scraw. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:01, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Lemme wait and see what you throw. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:04, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I think you fail to realise how densely populated Java, Bengal and the Gangatic Plains are. We will still have a +20. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:09, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how large your population is, what matters is the ratio. I just threw in about 7 million people, and Von already had about another 7, while Ethiopia maxes out to 5 or 6 million people, while you have what, 16 million people? In your favor, it's 10 to 7 (in simplest terms).

20:13, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, did I forget to mention? My side gets the 1.1 for the superiorly industrialised side. And 16 Million, are you trying to make me laugh? We have surpassed 100, not 16. :P Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:14, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Im willing to throw in my support in the war for Arabia and my German Allies.Andr3w777 (talk) 20:18, June 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Join us! You could get your first colony!


 * 20:53, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * consider it done.Andr3w777 (talk) 20:55, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you a coalition leader or just sending aid? And what nations are doing this? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:43, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bavaria and Tyrol are his nations.
 * 22:03, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I need nation ages of all coalition leaders and then check what they've been up to in the last 15 years. Then we can work out the individual development scores to be added together. I'll construct a table to fill in values of each nation's scores  <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:19, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Please no more huge wars. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 20:23, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

It was small then Imp got involved so I got others involved. If he kept his nose out, or just sent military aid this war would be confined to Yemen and no where else. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:24, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

NO! He is my best ally. You will lose the war. You want to get others involved, I got an ace up my sleeve. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:28, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

And I'm joining in 1721 anyway. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:29, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well then Germany would join in 1721 as they're joining mainly to attack you.

Anyway people, please help fill in the table I have posted. This way we can easily work out the individual scores of the coalition members and make the algorithm transparent. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:07, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

The population bonus for Ethiopia/Orissa should be +2, as 145/40 = 3.625 which is less than 5.

00:27, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Can we close the war now?

01:59, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Until that table is finished up, we don't have the correct scores as the algorithm isn't complete. As the military, economic and expansion scores aren't correct. I'll finish it off tomorrow. But what you say about the population bonus is true Scraw. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:51, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget to add Saxony and the Confederation of the Rhine, please. And PLEASE do not say I joined too late (like the last war I was in). I joined as soon as I actually found out about it.Callumthered (talk) 09:29, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you tell me which of your nations are doing what please so I can add them to the algorithm. Which of these nations are sending aid, which are coalition leaders, etc. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:43, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

This is where my history comes into play. Ethiopia in OTL had 11 million people (sank to seven million during 1800s), which was locked at that number because of constant drought. Plus, you have to count Ethiopia's colonies which provide at least two million (East Africa had about a million people alone). Since Ethiopia didn't suffer from drought thanks to new technologies and Orissan aid, Ethiopia has a population of 20 million in light of consistant growth, plus the six million from recently annexed Sudan (population in OTL), given it 26 million citizens and a nice bonus to boot. Didn't I say African history was the most neglected of world history? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 11:56, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, if Korya, Travancore, Georgia, and Lanka are all German vassals, why are they getting leader bonuses? Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 12:07, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because these vassals are leaders in the war. They still get the vassal penalty, hence LV (4-1 = 3) which is what they are contributing to the strengh score. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:43, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we run by that logic then, Yemen, Adal, Warsangali, Khmer Koch, and Maynila would also be leaders in the war as they are all at risk as well (plus you invaded Yemen first, not Ethiopia). That would give me 15 additional points, 24 if we count all of my vassals. That would also go for those attached to Orrisa too. Plus, many of your vassals have the leadership bonus, but not the vassal point (Georgia for example). So if we add up those scores, you've basically shot yourself in the chest and poured acid into the wounds. You've lost. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:26, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you want to add in your vassals and puppets as algorithm leaders then go ahead, but if you do that then I'll just add my vassals as algorithm leaders. Let me just finish off the current table, I've just got to go over the Maharajya's scores. I'm nearly done with that part of the table, then just say which other of your vassal nations you want adding to the algorithm and I'll do it. Lemme just finish off this part so we know this much for definite. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:41, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:42, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah, minor note. If the war is taking place in Ethiopia, why is Ethiopia described as being "close to war" while Travancore is described as being "at the war"? Oh, and please feel free to add all my vassals in as leaders. Yoruba on the West African front, Tasmania and Maori on the Pacific front, Maynila and Khmer Koch on the Asia front, and Yemen, Warsangali, and Adal on the homefront. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:26, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because Travancore is small and invading India. Ethiopia is larger and not being invaded. Anyway the algorithm is complete with the latest data. Also Viva can I warn you not to bother, all your vassals expand every year, all this do will lower your score. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:36, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do expanded by vassals every turn. The ones with land to expand on. Only Adal, Warsangali, and Yoruba expanded since they were the only ones with land to do so. All of my other vassals focused on developing their military and economies.  I ran through all of my posts and have the points that they built up over time. So all of them have free military and econ points. Maynila has 2 for infaustructure, military and economy (1711 and 1712), Khmer Koch has 3 for infaustructure, military and economy (1704, 1705, 1710, 1711, 1712), Yemen has one for infaustructure, three for the economy, and two for the military (1704, 1705, 1711, and 1712), Tasmania and Maori have one point for all three (1710 and 1711), and all the vassals not mentioned have one point for military and economy (1711). Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:49, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay I'll add Yoruba, Tasmania, Maori, Maynila, Khmer Koch, Yemen, Warsangali and Adal to the algorithm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:14, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Excellent. Now please explain why my vassals all have a leader penalty when this is the first war they've led, and why none have any of the points that I mention earlier? Was it just a quick copy paste from Ethiopia? Also, if you declared war on Ethiopia, why is it that the war is taking place in India? Nowhere have I seen either your nation or Scraw's state that you were fighting Orissa. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:25, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * It was a copy & paste yeah. They are updated now. And the thing about the Indian war is because Imp said he is joining the war in 1721, meaning Scraw declares war on him in 1721. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:01, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Anyway I've updated some of the table but I got to go offline now so no more updating until tommorrow night. Please help me fill it in for your own nation's values if you go back and check your past posts and what not. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:32, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay then. Will do. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:50, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, Korya threw its support behind Ethiopia, and I have all of Orissa and its colonies behind Ethiopia as well. So I'll add them to the Ethiopian side of the algorithim, Orissa I'll add in the next turn once they join. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:15, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's bullshit.


 * 22:03, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Too stinkin' bad. It happened and its allowed. You wanted this war and we won it. Even without Korea we still win. W00t. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:06, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Von, you forgot that all the scores are divided by the number of billergents in the war. Cheeky fact to forget ;)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:22, June 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Imp if you check the discussion in the Great fail war then you'll see that this is not the case. Collie agreed to this, and its why you guys won that war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:20, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Okay the algorithm and table is now all up-to-date with the latest nations joining and past turns. Seems Ethiopia's side loses. And Imp, I'm not including the industrialization bonus because only 1 of the 10 nations in your coalition has it, whereas the other 9 nations are either the same industrial level or a lower level as our coalition nations. Thus they cancel each other out.

As for the Korea they are Germany's puppet which Dean controls which he shouldn't because he was the Lakota and he just left them, which is illegal. So he shouldn't have them anyway, not to mention Scraw never gave him express permission to do so. Nevertheless if Korea is to abandon Germany who they begged to let them be vassalized by, then obiviously public opinion will be divided between being a German vassal and independent. Thus the fairest situation I can see here is that Korea leaves this war and desends into civil war as the German puppet government fights the Korean independence fighters and we use another seperate war to decide who wins this civil war. TLDR - Korya leaves this war and has another war against Korean rebels for independence/remaining a vassal. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:37, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Seeing Yank's recent mod event, I'm removing Korea from this algorithm. It cannot be a leader for either side because it is facing a civil war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:18, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

First, you forgot to add Ethiopia and Orissa's colonial bonuses, the height bonus of Yemen's capital (2,000 m), and the fact that most of the vassals of Ethiopia are located close to the fight. Second, Adal, Maynila, and Khmer Koch all of Ethiopian majorities, and wouldn't allow the Arab Muslims to slaughter the Ethiopian Christians, hence a +5 bonus to the three for social/moral reasons. Third, India gets the industrialization bonus since it outproduces all nations in the conflict, and like WWII USA, produces most of the military equipment used by our side (just like how the United States produced half of the world's military equipment during WWII). Plus, I never expanded Yemen since Yemen had no land to expand on. Finally, Orissa is defending its territory since Mysore and Sri Lanka are invading it. Remember? I'm not going to get into the faults with your side, but you should know that our's shoul d have significantly more points than what your letting on. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:32, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Okay first off we have the colonial bonus because we have more colonies and the majority of your empires is vassals. E.g. Orissa has 1 colony the rest is vassals. Ethiopia has 5 colonies the rest is vassals. Germany alone has more colonies. Secondly the height bonus is cancelled because India is invading Arabia via sea, and the vassals you mention are far away from the war because they are joining in to attack me. I also highly doubt Ethiopians are the majority of the population in these vassals (with the exception of Adal) and they aren't Yemeni so again, they join the war for economic reason. Again no industrialization bonus because only 1 of the 10 nations in your coalition has it, whereas the other 9 nations are either the same industrial level or a lower level as our coalition nations. Thus they cancel each other out. As for the Yemeni expansion, you added that data in so that isn't my fault. But seeing how you seemingly got this wrong I now doubt the validity of the rest of the data you imputed, hence I'm now going to check your past posts and do it myself. And Orissa joined for economic benefit, that was their motive for joining the war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:08, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, my motive changed as soon as germany declares war on me. And I have three colonies, two of which are in South America. -.- [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:14, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, four. N. Island is also a colony. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:15, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well then we should change Germany's Indian vassals motives to being invaded by that logic, and then change mine to life / death. No its the original reason you join the war. They invaded you because you joined this war for economic benefit. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:22, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like excuses to me Von. I made it extremely clear that Ethiopia was replacing the Yemeni population and those of the other vassals for several decades. Whether or not I did is your opinion and not my problem as you didn't read my posts. Arabia has no colonies, and the colonies of Ethiopia and Orissa combined outnumber those of Germany. My vassals are based near Orissa (one front of the war), Yemen (second front), and New Zealand (third front). The height bonus isn't cancelled as you invaded Yemen first. Orissa joined to help thus your remark does not count. The war is taking place in Yemen according to your words, not mine. And the industrialization bonus still counts as India still has a larger populaton than all of the other nations combined, plus it industrialized. So they have both manpower and the technology to outproduce all the other nations. A simple fact that cannot be disputed. You cannot keep creating loopholes simply to avoid the fact that your wrong. The only data we should be concerned about is your own. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:48, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Your point makes no sense, you name three fronts and then say the war is happening in Yemen. Yemen's height is irrelevent to Orissa and New Zealand if that is where the war is happening like you say. You've just disproven yourself, congratulations. And the industrialization bonus does not count as I repeatly tell you, stop making excuses, its not happening, regardless of your tantrums. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:57, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't call my statement a tantrum. Unless your in the room with me, and your not, you can't classify my speech. I honestly don't care anymore. You've successfully played the war into your hand by crook and I can't be bothered with trying to stop you anymore. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:22, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Viva, you have been aggressive and belligerent in these discussion pages. Call it what you want, but we're calling it a tantrum. It's childish to accuse a mod of cheating just because something doesn't go your way. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 21:23, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Viva, take a breather. I'll do all the algorithym stuff. I cut our losses significantly by removing two of your most expanding vassals. Saved us a whopping 26 points. Put in Mataram instead. We should be able to close the lead. As long as the ace in the hole works, we'll be fine. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:40, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

In all fairness, we will probably not win this, yet we can force it to a pointless war = draw. That will mean both sides will have to recover from the war, not just one. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:51, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Right. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:15, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

That's cheating, Imp.

01:22, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

No its not? Imp (Say Hi?!) 06:52, June 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, it is, as a normal nation in real life would put all of its necessary nations into a war, because there are no algorithms in real life.


 * 20:24, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Its not Scraw, since the owner can chose which of his or her vassals to bring into a conflict. In fact, you yourself told me in chat that you were going to win because you didn't bring in all of your vassals and were just using a few of them. You've disproven your claim. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:07, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, I said that I'm winning just by putting a few vassals into the war, and even if I put all the rest in, I would still win. And if I said what you say I said, it wouldn't be the same, because I didn't take my vassals out just because I was losing.

20:24, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Also if what you pulled off goes unpunished, I have a counter ace. ;D

20:48, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I am not worried. I will be getting some of Mysore after the war. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:51, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Ha, that's if you win.

20:56, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

No, we will win. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:03, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Arrogance.

Also, let's get someone else to do the algorithm (Crim or Collie) because you and Von keep tweaking it.

21:10, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Scraw please. Your the most arrogant person on this wiki. Especially when I first met you. So let's not go into name-calling (can't really say anything myself). Von already asked Collie to do the algorithim by the way, but he hasn't done anything yet. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:18, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to start any OOC fights. So can we just wait until the algorithm is finished before we make any calls?

01:53, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

No you can't remove a nation from the war just because you are losing. That is cheating, you seemed perfectly willing to do so when you had those nations fighting with your erroneous development scores, and now they aren't good enough you can't just cast them aside.

Its the same issue as we had in the Great Fail war, where you aruged at length that Dean and Co. couldn't withdraw because they were losing. They joined, they can't leave, end of story. Stop bending the rules, cheating, lying, throwing hissy fits and being hypocritical. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:49, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Independent mod check discussion of this algorithm
Okay as a mod, I rule this algorithm to be correct. Thus I lock it from further editing. If another mod which isn't involved in this war such as Scan, Crim, Collie or Seiga could check this over that would be great. If you have any issues with it please post them below rather than ruining the algorithm and tables. DO NOT EDIT NOW or face punishment dealt from the mods.

Please keep general discussion about the algorithm in the above section and keep this section for only talking about the current algorithm and the mod check. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:35, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Applogises for all the mesages BTW, I was ensuring what all player nation leaders knew, and all the mods knew. This is the only way I can see to be transparent, democractic and fair. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:11, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I've found a mistake of my own, I've not added Germany proper as a leader to this war after they declared full war and became a coalition leader in 1723. Another mistake is not adding the Mayans to the war who said they sent military aid to Germany in 1723 too. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:21, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

the algorythm seems right.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:45, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Collie. -Kogasa  2013 June 07, 14:12 (CET)

Upon consulting my magic 8-ball, I can affirm that the algorithm is, in fact, correct. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 22:01, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

So, who has the power to close it? CourageousLife (talk) 22:55, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, but let it be clear that the current results do not allow the Arabian coalition to fully take over the other coalition.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:50, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

There is a problem. I believe they wished for a couple of nations to withdraw. I believe that should be allowed as it is within the rules. They face a -1 penality in the nation score but the other contributions are lost. Scandinator (talk) 12:03, June 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Scan look at the reasons why they wanted those nations to withdraw, because they don't have the same development scores when they originally added them. Once these scores were corrected and they were bad for them, they tried to get them out of the war. Even though they'd been part of the war for 2 years and Viva willingly added them. Then Imp removed them as to "cut our losses significantly by removing the two most expanding vassals. Saved us a whopping 26 points." Meaning they were removed for no reason other than metagaming. There is also the problem that our coalition are still fighting them and haven't agreed to peace with them. Ergo we keep attacking them not letting them withdraw. As see saw in the Great Fail war, you agreed with Imp & Viva's position to keep those losing nations in the war even though they wished to leave. To quote you: "I don't think its fair that you can lead in a war and then bail if you think you are losing regardless if the other side allows it or not." Its the exact same position so they shouldn't be allowed to leave. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:53, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Touche... And didnt see that post, I was focusing on the algorithm but I think something in the discussion about two of their nation's caught part of my attention. But yea, otherwise the algorithm seems in order.


 * Right, so pretty much, the negotiated truce Saxony (but not the rest of the Confederation of the Rhine) made with Ethiopia (via Italian mediation) is null and void?Callumthered (talk)
 * Well no, both sides agreed to that. You made a peace treaty and stopped fighting each other. The case of Adal & co. is that we don't agree for them to leave the war so they continue to be attacked. And the only reason why they want them to leave the war anyway is for the metagame reason that their algorithm scores are bad. Saxony wanted peace, negotiated and made a ceasefire. You had good reasons to leave seeing you got your objectives for what you wanted from the war and we all agreed you could leave since Ethiopia is no longer attacking Saxony territories. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:57, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Phewph! Callumthered (talk) 05:43, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

My main Germanic states (Norway, Denmark, West Brandenburg) are still not in there, as per what I did in 1723.

19:08, June 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay I'll add those 3 nations and the Mayan military aid now.  Once that is done, this algoroithm is complete and the war will be over. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:52, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just noticed that Somali Sultanate joined in 1726 so let me add them too. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:14, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

If you are adding more nations, then so will I.  Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:30, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Thats a quote from the rules. They will have multiple motives as they are set to lose huge amounts of territory or even annexation. It is not the reason they joined the war, otherwise no-one would ever get a +10 as every nation starts with the thought, "I will defend my territory", not, "O NOES we are dead"... Scandinator (talk) 15:49, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Imp I still have another 4 vassals which I haven't added to this war. Germany still has other vassals too. Not to mention that other nations will probably want to join to get land now seeing how we've overthrown your government. Just give up.
 * If you do give up now then I'll let you take over Rajaputana and have them break away from the Maharajya. You keep all of Rajputana's colonies. If you don't give up, then we'll take all of India. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:39, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * At this rate its a matter of life or death for Ethiopia, Yemen and the Maharajah. They will likely be annexed or crippled by the war and are currently the main nations in the coalition under attack and thus they accquire that motive. Scandinator (talk) 14:51, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * No they don't, its the reason why they joined the war. I wanted some of Yemen, hence they were defending territory. Then Ethiopia and Maharajah join for economic reasons to help there ally. Its the reason why you join the war. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:02, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I have to bring this up. I made it very clear Ethiopia and its vassals were joining to defending their Ethiopian brothers in Yemen given the Caliphate's killing off the Ethiopian population in Madagascar. In every turn I posted in, I made very clear the Ethiopian majority in each of the vassals, and the expansion of Christianity in each as well. Since the primary motive for the Caliphate's invasion of Ethiopia in the past was religion, and the genocide of the Ethiopians in Madagascar, the Ethiopians had every reason to believe it was a life or death struggle, on top of the fact that the Arabians themselves were invading for the same religious reasons. You tip-toed around that too saying that I, the ruler of Ethiopia, joined for economic reasons (as if you could read my mind), and not for that which I stated. You and Scraw admitted multiple times that neither Ethiopia or India would exist in a few turns, clearly stating your intentions to absorb or destroy Ethiopia and the United Maharajya. Flag of the Hurian Federation.png Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:57, June 9, 2013 (UTC)



Algorithm Proposal
Ok, seriously, why did no one think of this:

ok when a nation is occupying a  nation they have conquered, the occupied lands population shouldnt count for them, it should count agaisnt them as it takes many of people to hold those people down. So if a nation that is occupying another nation is at war, the algorithm should punish them for occupying another nation and being at war. like -5 for every occupied nation.

DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 13:28, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

That sounds pretty effective, especially considering all of the nations that have collapsed from trying to fight one war while fighting another at home (i.e., Nazi Germany, First French Empire, British Empire, Empire of Japan). I'm actually for this. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 13:38, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Because if you did this no one would have a colonial empie or an empire at all. Viva you'd be punished for controlling Sudan, Adal, Somalia, Yemen and your other vassals & colonies. You'd get like a -30 straight off the boot. This is a bad idea as it discourages expansion too much. I'll just use some more mod events for revolts if you think this is an issue, which it somewhat is. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:39, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

i meant it would only count agasint you if you conquered it within last 10 years. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:00, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well then that ignores all of the people which have been conquered, I mean all the African colonies didn't just give up resisting European colonists after 10 years of being invaded. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:02, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

same race: 10 years

Different race: 30 years

problem solved

someone besides me could fix the flaws, but some people wouldnt resist as long as others.

DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:04, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

How would I be fight on my on turf if I replaced most of the non-Ethiopian population over than last century and basically placiated the populations of my empie with good health, plentiful food, and accessible jobs and wealth? And Ethiopia is an African country. Other African nations would be more willing to join Ethiopia after Ethiopia tells them what the Arabs and Europeans did to the rest of Africa. Slavery and colonization of their lands by foreigners (at least Ethiopia is a local power) would do much to play the African kingdoms into Ethiopia's hands. So basically what Dean said is correct. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:30, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

They still resist, some people in Scotland who have had it easy for hundreds of years still want independence from England even though we're the same race, given them all the stuff you mention and more, but still they're not satisfied and still want independence. No this idea is bad complicates everything and there is no way to independently tell if a nation's peoples want independence. You claim Adal wouldn't want independence, I claim they would. Its impossible to do with all the bias in this game. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:46, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well the Scots are white, but have a different language, a different history, a different culture, and a different way of life, plus they are still Scottish, not English. Ethiopia bred out the Adalese population over the period of vassalization, destroyed the culture as punishment for the past crimes against Ethiopia (like invading and conquering portions of it in the distant past), replaced Islam with Orthodox Christianity, and basically erased the Adalese nation as a distinct cultural group (much like what Nazi Germany sought to do with recently conquered nations, but without all the violence). Ethiopia has be doing this to Yemen, Warsangali, Maynila, and virturally all the vassals in its power, but peacefully, not forcibly as the English tried with the Scots, which ultimately led to the warfare that plagued the island for centuries. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 16:55, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Not on the map game, just want to say that it was not forcible, the king of Scotland inherited the throne of England, and they joined together, and many of the Scottish people who want independence, are not actually of pure Scottish descent, as the two nations have been joined for so long. Local (talk)

Population Map
With all of the controversy reguarding country's actual populations, would someone mind making a population map? Kind of like the Industrialization map, but with colors corresponding to nation's population. CourageousLife (talk) 18:12, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

I did my research and have all of Ethiopia and its vassals' populations. This is based on OTL figures and the in-game events (no drought in Ethiopia, better health services in vassals, and increase food production and brith rates). Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:28, June 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ethiopia: 25 million
 * Yemen: 7 million
 * Adal: 2 million
 * Warsangali: 750,000
 * Maynila: 1.5 million
 * Khmer Koch: 2 million
 * Maori: 600,000
 * Tasmania: 75,000 (120,000 if we count the aborigines)
 * Yoruba: 1.2 million

I would have to agree. That or some database. A map could easily be confused, and would need relar updating. A database with all the nation's populations would be just as helpful. Reximus55 (talk) 19:52, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Bavarian Population Estimates
Due to the size of the in game Bavarian Empire,one of the oldest in game, which is 3x the size of OTL Bavaria in landmass, the population figures for the whole nation are considerably higher than OTL

Greater Bavaria(OTL Bavaria, Baden-Wurttemburg and Thurngen)- approx 12 million

Bohemia- approx 5 million

Slovakia- approx 2 million

Bavarian Cyrenaica- 20,000

Bohemia would be 4 and Greater Bavaria about 8... 12 million is 4/5ths of all of the German states at this time OTL. Scandinator (talk) 15:50, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Russian Realm 1715-1717 Population Census

 * Novgorodian Tsardom of Great Russia: 35 million
 * Tsardom of Minsk: 10 million
 * Tatar State: about 2.23 million
 * Federated Duchy of the Caucasus: 1.12 million
 * Astrakhani State: 739 700
 * Duchy of Riga: 202 900
 * Grand Principality of Suur-Suomi: 748 700
 * Norwegian Dependancy: 98 200
 * Colony of Novorossiya: 295 000
 * Colony of Kanada: 379 000
 * Total population of the Russian Realm: approximately 50 813 500

Mononobe Shogunate's Population Estimates

 * Mononobe Shogunate ~ 29,500,000
 * Kasodani ~ 1,500,000
 * Okinawa ~ 250,000
 * Tōkaidō ~ 150,000
 * Tojiko ~ 400,000
 * Miyako ~ 1,200
 * Kazami ~ 1,000

My estimates may be a bit high though. -Kogasa  2013 June 03, 22:14 (CET)

I've fixed the population estimates. Japan's population actually decreases in the 1750s to ten million. Early warning. As for Papua New Guinea, its OTL population reached 100,000 people in 1900, so I adjusted the population to included the Japanese immigration to the colony there for the game. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:29, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

What source are you using? On the Wikipedia article,, it was around ~26,065,425 by 1721 and had been hovering around 25,000,000 to 26,000,000 for a while before 1850. In TTL, seeing as I expanded into Kamchatka and such, I'd think the population would be a bit higher than that. -Kogasa  2013 June 03, 22:41 (CET)

That's strange. That's the same article I was using too. Ah I see the issue. I was looking at the urban number. Sorry about that. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 21:07, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Italian Estimates
Total for all realms: ~54,760,000
 * Italia ~30,000,000 (Italy, Hungary, Romania, Turkey)
 * Yugoslavia ~ 8,000,000 (OTL Yugoslavia minus Dalmatia and Slovenia plus Bulgaria)
 * Greece ~ 2,000,000 (OTL Greece minus islands)
 * Nya Gyptios ~250,000
 * Aymaras ~2,000,000
 * Siam+Sukhothai ~ 2,500,000
 * Malacca ~3,000,000
 * Nuovo Venexia ~ 1,500,000
 * Nuovo Treviso ~ 1,000,000
 * Nuovo Milano ~ 50,000
 * Nuovo Firenze ~ 200,000
 * Nuovo Brescia ~ 1,250,000
 * Inca ~ 3,000,000
 * St John ~100,000

I buffed the numbers for Yugoslavia and Greece as ATL has been way better than OTL for them. Scandinator (talk) 15:41, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

Iberian estimates

 * Portugal - ~3,000,000
 * Galicia - ~750,000
 * Portugal - ~2,300,000
 * León - ~2,100,000
 * Córdoba - ~120,000
 * Sevilla - ~600,000
 * Asturias - ~300,000
 * León - ~1,100,000
 * Castille - ~2,000,000
 * Jaén - ~100,000
 * Castille - ~600,000
 * Toledo - ~900,000
 * Murcia - ~170,000
 * Aragon - ~3,000,000
 * Majorca - ~150,000
 * Catalunia - ~800,000
 * Aragon - ~400,000
 * Valencia - ~700,000
 * Toulouse - ~900,000
 * Navarra - ~400,000
 * Granada - ~500,000

Welsh Population - 1721 Census

 * Wales - 4 million
 * Scotland - 3 million
 * England - 3 million
 * Brittany - 2 million
 * Belfast - 1.5 million
 * Cork - 1.5 million

Selk'nam
This could be a bit difficult for me seeing as the real-life Selk'nam didn't have European contact until the mid-late 19th centurt. At that point there were about 3,000 of them. On top of that my nation actually consists of five real-life nations (Selk'nam, Yaghan, Haush, Alacaluf, Teushen) - none of which are terribly well-documented - especially at this point in history. On top of that I've spen the last 40 years writing about urbanization and population explosion (which the real-life Selk'nam never achieved).

How do we feel about setting my population at 45,000?

I'm guesstimating that each of my 5 tribes probably had about 3,000 pre-settlement for about 15,000 total. I've had them settled and growing rapidly for a while, and somehow I pulled off settling South Georgia in the process. I'm spotting myself a lot of people but I'm playing catch-up.

Lithuania
Total: 52
 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:1
 * Strength: Lithuania = 4
 * Military Development: 30/3 = 10
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit Count: 10,746
 * UTC Time: 14:56 - 1*4*5*6 = 120
 * 10,746/120*pi= 281.187
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Prussia
Total:53
 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Prussia = 4
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economy: 3
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 7
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
93/149*2-1=0.2485

24.85*0.875= 21.72

Discussion
Can someone help me with the algorithm for the new Lithuanian war in Prussia?