Talk:Knightfall

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' YOU DO NOT APPLY FOR KNIGHTFALL- KNIGHTFALL APPLIES FOR YOU! ' =General Discussion=

Welcome
Welcome everyone to this timeline. Mscoree (talk)

This should be really interesting. Let's see what we can do. Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:56, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Hallo, gents. There are a couple of things we need to work out 'fore we get to it. POD is December 11th, 1241, where Oggy Khan survives.
 * 1) We need a peer-review process
 * 2) We need to agree on a general timeline for the first 100 years or so, so people don't get confused and start clashing their canon.

ATM, we're looking at the furthest reaches of the Mongols hitting South-Eastern France, Most of Germany- a few bits to the North-West would be spared, by and large- and most of Italy. They'll be keeping Eastern Europe up to about Poland. And, of course, Khanstantinople.

After that comes the Black Plague, which piggy-backs the horde. Based on estimates from OTL- from China and Europe- we estimated that in Germany, France, and Italy, we could be talking death rates of between 65-80% of the populace. The Mongols and the Plague combined killed something like 55% of the population of China around this time. In Europe, JUST the plague killed 65% or so. This primarily due to the fact that there are far more city dwellers in Europe than China. Since the Mongols would be sweeping the countryside, people would hole up in cities- where the plague would sweep deadly.

18:36, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

So is the whole Mongol Empire going to be divided between Genghis Khan's descendants (like Ilkhanate, Golden Horde, etc) or is it going to stay whole?

20:44, December 15, 2014 (UTC) No way it would stay whole. The main difference in this timeline is that there will be at least one more khanate than OTL, and it will be in Europe. Other parts of Europe will be vassals/tributary states, particularly in Germany, similar to Russia in OTL. Lastly some areas in Europe will have been raided, but the extent of how far that goes is up for debate. That's pretty much what we brainstormed so far on chat last night (in between arguing with Pita). Mscoree (talk) 20:59, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

It will break up into 5-6 Khanates, but slightly later than OTL. Upvote, that sig is ridiculous. Also, you have to be invited- you can't apply. -- 22:51, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Can we have the Mongols conquer Japan? I personally think it's not unreasonable in this timeline.

23:11, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

^^

That. Scraw, your idea, your article.

23:32, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

I have a Mongol conquest of Japan in my TL, it is easily plausible, just get rid of the famous typhoon that destroyed much of the Mongol fleet after the Battle of Bun'ei.

—Bfoxius (talk)

Sounds interesting. I'd like a piece of this action. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 23:26, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ask on someone's talkpage, not here. Also, like, we are trying to keep this small. IDK- we'll see if the votes passes, if someone chooses to invite you.

01:19, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, understood. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 07:13, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

=Proposals=

Upvoteanthology
Although he is relatively new, Upvote is a very hard worker and a great writer. I nominate him for entrance into this timeline. Mscoree

Votes

 * Yes
 * —Bfoxius (talk)
 * Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)
 * "Screw it"  03:34, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * No
 * Too early to add anyone [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!)

Discussion
Though he is new, he has quickly made a large timeline and has shown himself to be an effective writer. He gets my vote. —Bfoxius (talk)

Upvote, you're my favorite new editor, but I don't know if you're ready yet. Maybe in a month or so, when we have the guidelines down, but ATM, I'm abstaining.

00:07, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

I understand, Guns. I respect whatever you guys end up choosing.

Fuck elitism. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

    In the words of Thog...

"Fudge the police!"

(Also, profanity is bad).

03:31, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

In the words of many wise, currently banned chat goers:

"Fuck da police, coming straight from chat underground, Guns bans me cuz I'm brown. // The TSPTF think they have the authority, to kick a wiki minority..." etc. Mscoree (talk) 03:58, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

A) His ban has worn off by now

B) Do YOU want to add thyself to that list?

03:59, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't quoting a particular person (except NWA); that quote has been said too many times to count. Anyway. moving on. Mscoree (talk) 11:30, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

Can we set a time limit for voting? Mscoree (talk) 15:11, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

I may not be one to talk in this situation, but if you do set a timelimit, would everyone be forced to vote, or would you take the ratio of the current votes and use that?

I figured we should set a time limit, such as two weeks, so that at the end of that time limit the current votes are totaled up to determine the result. Mscoree (talk) 20:18, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

... We HAVE a timelimit. Did you not see what I wrote on the rules page? Y'know, as one of the founders, I DID think this through.

Read the invitation proposals.

22:57, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

General Timeline Proposal 1.0
In 1242, Batu Khan and the Mongol horde sweep into Balkanized Germany and Austria. Most of the Austrian countryside is overrun within two months, and Vienna is taken after a defector opens a backdoor into the city, allowing the Mongols to swarm into the city. Vienna is razed to the ground and its most of its civilian population executed. Most of the rest of the nation surrenders upon hearing of the fall of Vienna.

In Germany, initial success bogs down as too much time is needed to capture each individual principality, as there is no central authority to surrender to the invaders. Frustrated, Ögedei's forces are forced to leave behind hundreds of castles as they continue with their swift move westward. It takes them over six months to overrun (still with castles left behind) most of Germany.

In order to counter the Mongol threat, the Catholic Church declares a defensive crusade, calling on all Christian nations to fight the Mongol invaders. England, Portugal, Castille, Aragon, Leon, France, and even Sweden respond with by volunteering troops - with Venice staying out of the war. However, each clash between the Crusaders and the Mongols results in a decisive Mongol victory due to superior tactics. But, Mongol forces are losing the war of attrition, with many horses dying from starvation, overworking, and battle. Only 4,000 Mongols have died compared to 22,000 Europeans, but their original army was not all that large. More importantly, they are losing horses - the ideal ratio of 5-15 horses per soldier is reduced to 3, and the army has lost 15% of its manpower. All this sets up the final stand of European force in Germany.

On November 22, 1242, against the advise of his senior leadership, Batu Khan and his 29,000 Mongols and 31,000 Turkish auxillaries move into the Teutoburg Forest, determined to take out the last vestiges of Germanic resistance, who are holed up in the forest. Lead by relatively unknown German commander General Adolf von Hohenstaufen, descendant of the Hohenstaufen royal bloodline, utilizes the thick foliage (which restricted Mongol horse movements greatly) and ambush with a nearly all-German force (the French army had fled the forest upon hearing of the Mongol advance) almost completely annihilates the Mongol force in a decisive engagement not unlike the first Battle of Teutoburg Forest. 11,000 Mongols are killed, an unprecedented number for a relatively untouched Mongol army. Of the original 31,000 Turkish auxillaries only 9,000 remained, with the rest having been killed, captured, or fled. Batu Khan himself nearly survives and retreats out of the forest, humiliated and defeated.

Now with a far smaller force than originally planned, Batu Khan is forced to retreat. However, good news arrives - Kadan, son of Ögedei, is arriving with one tumen - 10,000 men - of reinforcements. He still remains cautious, however, remembering his defeat in the Teutoburg Forest.

Then, in a surprise move on Christmas Day, 1242, the city of Venice reveals that they have sought and received a treaty of alliance with the Mongols - partly because of their desire to spite the church, and partly because the Mongols control the Silk Road, which Venice relies on for trade. Meanwhile, France has signed a non-aggression pact with the horde, seeking to break away from the influence of the Papacy. All French forces remaining (most had already left under various excuses) retreat back into France, leaving the Papacy bare to the Mongol threat. Faced with the threat of the Mongols and Venice, which the church has always had a strained relationship with, the Vatican reluctlantly invites Batu Khan for discussions of peace.

After a three-day negotiation, the Mongols sign the Treaty of the Holy See. What used to be the eastern part of the Holy Roman Empire is absorbed into the Mongol Empire, as well as Eastern Europe. France is kept mostly safe from Mongol raids, with most raids going towards the Low Countries, Italy, and even Switzerland. General Adolf von Hohenstaufen is given the kingship over what remains of the Holy Roman Empire, elevating the House of Hohenstaufen once more.

Meanwhile, reports begin circulating of a mysterious new plague...

PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

My first thoughts on this matter are in regards to your comments on the Holy Roman Empire. Although they aren't really centralized, the Holy Roman Empire had about as much of a central government as say France did, although many historians point to the current emperor at the time of this timeline, Frederick II, as being the start of decentralization. At this time Frederick II had a large army in Italy, which he would probably march north, along with additional forces levied from within the empire, and combat the Mongols. I think this invasion might temporarily end the feud between the papacy and the emperor, since both groups would have to band together against the Mongols. You'd probably see a large crusade, spearheaded by Germans (like many of Frederick's OTL ones), but including large armies from all across Europe.

I'd say a treaty is probably signed in Germany or in Padua, where Frederick II held court for long periods of time, and in the off chance it's held in Rome, they would probably not call the "Treaty of the Holy See". More like "of Rome" at the least, or a long Latin phrase.

Who is this Adolf guy, did you make him up? Also what do you mean by elevating the Hohenstaufens? They are already in control of the empire.

I have to think more on the actual timeline here, but from first glance those are my initial thoughts. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 21:56, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Minor issues... I'll have more soon.
 * We can't make up people. Choose a real noble from OTL, who was alive around this time (unless Adolf was real, in which case, carry on).
 * I don't see the Church calling a crusade; they'd benefit from Ol' Freddy getting screwed over.
 * England and Portugal cannot volunteer troops; Portugal has no INTEREST in doing so, and England is fighting a war against the French and thus has more to gain from a Mongol victory than the others. (Castille and Aragon are fine, though, they're pretty close).
 * Sweden, likewise, ain't sending anything- but in their case because there isn't really a stable government, and half of em aren't Christian, anyway.
 * The ambush can't be THAT deadly, or the Mongols would be all but defeated. Think Antietam, not Gettysburg. The Euro armies push back the Mongols, with heavy losses to both sides; the Mongols still have fighting capability, but the Europeans have proven that they CAN win.

22:49, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Having talked to Pita, he has now decided to make up a descendant of a Swiss guy who at one point was notable in the 1000's, as part of a made up royal family he has now coined. As I said on chat, personally I think the best course of action is to research actual history and politics at this time, not implant a narrative about the French Resistance into the 13th century, without any understanding of what's going on. Note, that was said after a long conversation on chat about Pita's ideas.

Overall though, it's a solid start, just not a fan of making up people when there's a ton of people there and the possibility for some Game of Thrones type intrigue with real people. Maybe I'm just a huge German history fan, and I'm letting that get the best of me. As for the crusade, it will be a crusade or not, whether or not the pope calls it officially, based on the definition of the word alone. I agree the pope might have an agenda against Frederick, but let's say hypothetically the two sign a peace treaty under Mongol pressure, the two could possibly work together. Either way, if the Mongols directly threaten the Pope he'll probably have no choice. Plus it would look kind of out of character for the pope to side with the Mongols directly, that would just put all of Europe against him.

Mscoree (talk) 23:00, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Making up people is not a thing that is going to happen. There are a ton of people in this time period. Don't be lazy, use one.

23:11, December 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ms and Guns are right. No making people up unless all other options are exhausted. Although, I can see a crusade in the works, if the HRE gets rekt, you'll have an open gateway to the Pope's own doorstep for the Mongols to come in through. England, Sweden, and Portugal, also wouldn't send troops, as stated by Guns. Other than that, the timeline's great. Love Venice backstabbing the Papacy and the Catholic world calling a crusade. —Bfoxius (talk)

All this seems pretty great, but I would like to add on that England wins the war agaisnt France and makes them sign a peace treaty - they cannot be fighting two wars at the same time if you get what I mean? Otherwise France would collapse and so would European resistance and the Mongols would be able to dominate France.

I also think that Japan should not fall. It is one OTL thing I would really want to keep. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:24, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

Theoretically if at this point the Mongols had already failed to invade Japan, coincidental storm or not, they'd probably choose the more easily taken Europe than Japan, although it is up for debate really. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

Are we going to include the Venetian backstab? PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

I'd say yes, although I realized earlier today that it wouldn't be much of a backstab, since the Mongols and Venetians already had a formal alliance. Basically they had a deal that the Mongols would destroy/raid all non Venetian trade stations. Mscoree (talk) 21:34, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

We need a Battle of Teutoburg Forest II. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

This^^. It makes for a more interesting story to me, and I feel Japan should remain OTL, with the Mongols failing an invasion. As for the "backstab", its hardly a secret if there is a formal alliance in place, though I could of course see how other Euro nations could see it as a betrayal of Trust. On the Papacy thing, what do you actually want to happen? The Mongols could seize the area I suppose, or enforce hegemony, but wouldn't it make more sense to just move it to Avignon? I mean the papacy is still quite important to Christendom yeah?FOR THE GLORY OF THE PARTY! 17:30, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why there should be a battle in which the Germans defeat the Mongols, and much less why it should be in Teutoburg. Fed (talk) 17:34, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be Teutoburg per se, just another euro battle, I seriously doubt that, even with all the division, that the Euros would just lay down and die. There needs to be more than one battle, whether it be a pyric victory or not.FOR THE GLORY OF THE PARTY! 17:48, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

You have to consider the tactics of both sides. The Europeans in OTL won several ambushes against the Mongols, and were able to basically harass and draw forces from the invading force. Considering that here the Mongols are entering ares less desirable for their tactics, and would be forced to fight in forests and other areas where they were less accustomed to, where their age old tactic of feigning would be less effective, I'd say they lose many minor battles. What is being proposed here though is that there should be at least one definitive battle in which they lose outright, probably after a long campaign in Germany that wears them down. Mscoree (talk)

We have that. It'll be at Mainz, not at Teutoburg, and a combined Franco-German army will throw back the Mongols. After that defeat, the Mongols, with their enemies now remoralized and running out of food and men, will sign the Treaty of Rome, giving them large parts of Europe permanently in exchange for peace.

Japan NOT falling OTL was pretty ASB. The Japanese strategy was literally to sit down and pray for a massive storm, which is extremely rare. Butterfly wings etc.

22:56, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

As I've said before though, if the point of divergence is so that the Mongols have their attention shifted on Europe, you'd think they'd choose Europe, which appears much easier to take, than Japan which they previously failed to do. Not that they couldn't take Japan, just that they'd have less of an incentive to. Mscoree (talk) 23:02, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Current TL for Europe, Late 1241 to Early 1450's
Final Version
 * 1) Mongols invade Austria, siege Vienna, and pursue the fleeing Duke Frederick II to his previous court at Wiener Neustadt. The mobility of the Mongols however allows them to catch up quickly, and the Duke of Austria loses the city, followed by Graz, and is ultimately killed at the Battle of the Drava River in southern Austria.
 * 2) The death of the Duke of Austria causes a succession crisis, with the last heir to the Babenburg dynasty being Gertrude. Several of Austria’s neighbors are determined to take the throne, but this is largely determined based on each nation’s ability to repel the Mongols.
 * 3) Wenceslaus I of Bohemia seeks to place his son Vladislaus, Margrave of Moravia on the throne of Austria, ensuring that Bohemia and Austria would be united under the Přemyslid dynasty.
 * 4) Initially the Bohemians hold off the Mongols to some degree, albeit with heavy losses and with the loss of southern Bohemia. Concurrently a second army attacks Bohemia from Poland, and Bohemia falls to Mongol forces.
 * 5) Vladislaus dies at one point or another. Gertrude of Austria flees and marries Herman VI, Margrave of Baden, who claims the Austrian throne.
 * 6) The Bohemian duke’s inability to safeguard Bohemia leads to his son Ottokar II seizing control of Bohemia’s armies. Infighting largely inhibits the Bohemians’ ability to retaliate against the Mongols.
 * 7) Probably some sort of alliance between Ottokar II and Otto II of Bavaria.
 * 8) The Emperor Frederick II reluctantly signs a peace treaty with Pope Innocent IV, and agrees to leaves Italy.
 * 9) The pope provides monetary support to Frederick II’s rivals, going as far as to support Heinrich Raspe, landgrave of Thuringia in his plot to seize the imperial throne. The archbishops of Cologne and Mainz declare Frederick deposed, and Heinrich Raspe is later declared the new king.
 * 10) Frederick II manages to successfully defend northern Italy to some degree, while at the same time his army defeats Ranieri near Spello. Venetian lands are raided by the Germans, but pressed for time, little to no territory is seized.
 * 11) Ultimately, after a certain amount of time of continued fighting after the peace was signed, the emperor signs a real peace with the pope and Italian states in Padua, before withdrawing over the Alps to Swabia, to defend his personal possessions in Germany.
 * 12) Heinrich Raspe is killed in a costly and futile charge against Mongol forces, shattering the movement against Frederick II. The majority of German states elect to support Frederick II, now that Germany itself is largely under the threat of invasion.
 * 13) Insert somewhere: WIlliam II, Count of Holland launches a revolt against Frederick II, declaring himself king over the emperor.
 * 14) With Frederick II now absent from Italy, the city of Parma expels its Imperial administration, followed by several other cities. Romagna, Marche, and Spoleto are soon lost. Sicily however remains in Frederick’s possession, with his enemies now working against the Mongols rather than against his Italian possessions.
 * 15) The Mongols plunge simultaneously into Italy and Germany, punching through the German-Italian forces. The collapse- and the death of Raspe- convinces the Pope to truly back Frederick.
 * 16) Frederick, watching his Empire collapse, desperately asks for aid, and the Pope, seeing a massive crisis, decides to set aside their differences with Frederick- albeit extremely temporarily, and calls for a crusade upon the Mongols. The French, Castilians, Aragonians, and several smaller states come to help, but England refuses, as does Sweden.
 * 17) While the combined armies of most of Europe are gathering, Konrad makes a stand in Bavaria, near Munich, and is defeated again. He just about survives, while his brother, William, does not. (Use the battle segment here)
 * 18) Frederick finally takes what remains of the German armies to Mainz to meet up with the French and Spanish, while the Mongols begin raids into eastern France (basically, right across the Rhine) and Northern Italy, causing fears that the Mongols will next attack either Paris or Rome.
 * 19) The Mongols choose Paris first, due to the difficulty of crossing the Alps in winter (I’m assuming the previous stages took us to winter), and send an army 100,000 strong (mostly auxiliaries from Turkey, Venice, and collaborating German states and conscripts) to Mainz, to clear the way for the Mongol invasion. This is the main part of the Mongol fighting force in Europe.
 * 20) At Mainz, the combined armies of Christendom slightly outnumber the Mongols, around 150,000 to 100,000. They join battle, and the Euros manage to trick the Mongols into launching an attack against their deceptively weak right flank- when the Mongols DO attack, the French cavalry swings around, smashing into the flank of the Mongol attack, and causing thousands of casualties, then fold the center and left around the main Mongol force, restricting their fighting space, though not completely surrounding them. The Mongols fight for a few more hours, but lose nearly 35,000 men in that time, forcing a withdrawal. The Euros lose nearly 50,000, but are soon reinforced by other nations, including a late English force. If you want, a less important son dies.
 * 21) The Mongols, confronted with a force now nearly 4x their size, withdraw back in a hurry. A few more months of fighting follow, but the Mongol potential for attacking is now basically gone, and they sign a peace treaty in Spring, giving them Bohemia and Austria, as well as Eastern Europe, in exchange for peace.
 * 22) Some sort of civil war occurs in Germany, which does not end until nearly forty years later, with the coronation of Henry VII von Luxembourg as Holy Roman Emperor.
 * 23) Black Plague, spread by the hordes and by the armies, kills huge numbers. Over 75% of the population of Germany and Northern Italy is killed by the two factors, while France is also devastated, the plague killing millions. Other nations- such as England and Spain- also suffer, but much less, and the 3 biggest powers of Europe are finished.
 * 24) A divided Castile, depleted following the plague and the wars, collapses into civil war and various muslim nations advance into Spain...
 * 25) Fred dies a bitter old man etc etc

Ms and self have fact checked and stuff, all this is based on actual estimates and OTL events. Thoughts, reactions?

23:48, December 17, 2014 (UTC)

Seems pretty logical. On another note, does the timeline really go all the way to 1450ish? I assume the last few events take us there, but just making sure.

—Bfoxius (talk)