Talk:North American Union (1983: Doomsday)

Plausibility
This conflicts with previously established info on the Municipal States of the Pacific. You can't just wave your hand and undo one of the first nations ever created for this timeline. A lot of this will have to be changed. Benkarnell 22:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right Ben! Without Changes this can not be accepted as canon and my MSP are not to be removed this simple. And a lot of conflict potential to Ben's Hawaii Profile!! So please everyone read related and releveant stuff before changing established countries and profiles bearing hours of works!


 * @Ben Thanks for the reaction and I will highlight this issue on the Editorial Guideline (1983: Doomsday) and Start page again. Will start a major clean-up and update of the timeline as well as we got a lot things floating around... non-canon primarily.


 * @author of UAR: Nonetheless there are quite good ideas in your writing. A lot of them can be adopted into canon, but as Ben said will have to be modified of course. PLease have a look @ the Editorial Guideline (1983: Doomsday) and the general rules of althist wiki!! Thank you!

Xi&#39;Reney 03:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I can chime in re Obama. For my Hawaii project I certainly researched him, and in 1983 he was either in Chicago, New York, or Honolulu.  Either way, he's currently spending most of his time emitting beta particles...  couldn't very well be Speaker of anything :)  Benkarnell 00:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Anyone mind if I try my hand at an edit? I have a few ideas to make this fit better with canon and also to explain why no other nation has significant contact with the UAR.


 * It's improving, but I think it still goes against the overall spirit of the timeline more than any specific piece of information. Before this page was created, all we knew about North America was that the Canadian government survived in the Arctic somewhere, and that there were some city states on the West Coast ruled by rough men who called themselves names like "Boss Jones".  The whole area was presented as violent, unorganized, uncivilized - all hallmarks of civilization had been destroyed by the bombs, the fallout, or the chaotic aftermath.  What remained were hardscrabble communities of men and women gathered for mutual defense from the roaming bands outside the town walls.  A functioning democracy that covers half of the old USA, in my opinion, goes against that overall picture.  I can see a smaller area that attempts a democracy.  Maybe even a regional council that attempts to coordinate between several struggling "state governments" with only partial control over their respective countrysides.  But nothing this large or this... happy.  Sorry for a long-winded response.  I just think that the problems with this idea go beyond details and canon, and go into the whole spirit of this alt-world.  Benkarnell 20:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ben. This article is way too optimistic.  Consider that in 2009 in this TL only a billion people live in the world today instead of 6 billion in OTL.  That means 5 out of every 6 of the people who should be alive aren't because of Doomsday, and the US took the brunt of that.  Not even considering the numbers of people who were killed from the nuclear attacks, more would die because of radiation sickness, other diseases, and general lawlessness as the governments on every level break down.  Large amounts of farmlands are going to be made useless, how does the surviving Americans feed themselves?  How do they communicate over long distances with the EMP?  Where do they get medicine?  And yet out of all of these problems not only does half of the US survive but somehow is organized enough to convince the world they don't exist?  That sounds like they may be getting cloaking devices from alien space bats.  Small communities like Ben suggested a more likely to survive then the large nation that exists now. Mitro 21:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I realize that it does go against the current spirit of the timeline, but, frankly, I think the current spirit of the timeline underestimates the number and organization of the survivors, at least in this case. Don't forget, over 14 million people survived in the Eastern Soviet Union because worthwhile targets were few and far between. The chances of the same thing happening in the US, especially in the midwest, are similar. Both of these countries are BIG. Nuclear weapons are devastating but relatively focused. Even accounting for fallout and near-total chaos after Doomsday, the entire population of the US wouldn't have just gone away. This does a good job of explaining where they went, I would say. Though I will admit this country is perhaps a bit large... 12 million people simply aren't going to fill that kind of space... I didn't want to heavily modify the existing article, but a more realistic UAR might encompass a number of cities in the Rocky Mountains, the surrounding area, and a sizable area of agricultural land in the eastern reaches of the mountains, extending onto the plains. I find it very difficult to believe that no remnant of US authority or the American population would have survived in the lower 48 states. Loughery111 22:57, 28 April 2009

Quick proposal that I think might be more realistic than both extremes... Territory based out of Colorado and Nebraska including far eastern reaches of Utah, northern Arizona, the Texas Panhandle, a strip of land in northern Oklahoma, another strip in Southern Kansas, and part of western Missouri. Claimed territory includes all of the states they actually control land in, and (less strong) the entirety of the old USA (lower 48 states) Population roughly 8-12 million pending some research. Also, scratch the secrecy, UAR seeks recognition as legitimate successor state to USA much like Siberia does for USSR. Loughery111 23:13, 28 April 2009
 * I fully agree with you that little has been done about survivors in America, but there are reasons why such a state would just not exist. Also just to point out there is an American successor state in the area already: Municipal States of the Pacific (1983: Doomsday).  Remember even though both countries are big, the Soviet Union is much larger and due to Siberia's unique relationship within the USSR has a better chance to survive then a similar place in the US.  Consider that nuclear hits on the west coast are going to cause pollutants and radiation to move east with the weather which will cause damage to placed that were not hit.
 * Still I think a large state could survive in the Great Plains region (I'm assuming that is what you mean by "midwest" since that always seemed to me to mean the states around the Great Lakes). Personally I could see Montana, Wyoming, western Dakotas, western Nebraska and northwestern Kansas.  Nuclear hits in Utah, Missouri, Colorado and the refugee problems caused by them would make it unlikely large numbers of organized communities would survive there.  Parts of Arizona and Oklahoma are too isolated to be involved in this state.  I also find it more likely for the Texas panhandle to join the functioning government of Mexico (1983: Doomsday).
 * I think your suggestion has merit, we can even work it in with the expedition that left the MSP to search the interior, but we need to make sure it fits canon or else we would have to rework the entire TL. I'm glad you dropped the secrecy bit because there is probably a better reason why it took so long to get in contract (EMP, the irradiated desert between Idaho and Nevada, etc.). Mitro 02:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It cold also be a relatively recent creation, like the MSP: at least post-1995, after which the US government-in-exile would have no interest in hooking up with survivors on the Mainland. This could be like the MSP only somewhat larger and more successful: a combination of several local polities into a sort of federation.  If that were the case, the UAR could even cover a wide area, with empty space in between.  The map of the Republic could look like "spots" centered on safe areas around the "state" capitals.  There's certainly room enough in the US for such a country.  The idea of local powers in Canada has come up before as well.
 * FWIW, I had a professor from South Dakota who was baffled that none of us considered her to be Midwestern. (This was in Chicago.)  Benkarnell 02:41, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * People in Chicago think anything south of Joliet is the Confederate States, haha. Mitro 03:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It almost was ;). (Not quite.) Benkarnell

Both of these seem very reasonable. I had really envisioned a state where the vast majority of claimed territory is, in practice, uncontrolled, with sovereignty exercised only over smaller areas... my thinking is that any federation would claim all of the territory spanning its respective components, but in practice only OWN its core city-states and the crucial transport links connecting them all. I actually have a map looking rather like that on my computer as I was experimenting with what a more realistic UAR would look like... Deep blue for actual control, normal blue for direct claims, light blue for claims made as a successor state to the USA. Loughery111 22:51, 28 April 2009


 * OK. And speaking of Siberia, its inner workings have never really been explored... I imagine that despite the large amount of color on the map, it's something like that as well.  Benkarnell
 * Arguably there would be a lot of villages and small towns that would survive and stay connected thanks to strict surviving Soviet officials, but there is no doubt that there may be claimed territory. I believe according to the World Map only the eastern coast of Canada really survived yet all of Canada is shown under their control. Mitro 03:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess for Canada is that the shield region and the Maritime Provinces are somewhat intact, as is the northern portion of Quebec and, of course, the northern half of the area west of the Hudson (it only contains 60,000 people, what's there that's worth shooting?)... I'd say that the St. Lawrence waterway and Southern Ontario are a total loss, and that the Canadian government itself only controls the Shield, Maritime Provinces, and northern Quebec. There is no real reason why the rest wouldn't essentially revert to local or tribal control. -- Loughery111 23:41, 28 April 2009

The older version of the world map showed control, not claims, and it shows more or less the situation you describe (although there wouldn't be a "Nunavut"). Benkarnell 15:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It would seem to be a good idea to revamp the world map to show both. Darker colors for actual control and lighter ones for claims. Anywhere I could put this suggestion that it might actually get followed up on? Loughery111 12:24, 29 April 2009


 * This older version was very improvised and somehow fictional as it included the few established things and some childish ideas by myself. It was created in a stage where I was not seriously considering historical correctness of this TL and it was more of a playground. FOr example Nunavut I just included that way because of my passion for the far away unimportant things in the world...giving it a stage in this TL. NOw back in GErmany I have the resources again to work seriously on things like the world map. Any suggestions Lugery can be out at the Main Talk Page as there are already some. The claims thing will be adressed first but needs a lot of work. Xi&#39;Reney 10:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Then it's nice to see we have the same "passion"... I also love small, remote places. One reason why I find this project so appealing - all the busy, important places are blown up ;)  Benkarnell 20:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Name
I dunno it seems "New United States of America" just doesn't fit, is there another name we could call this country? How would the survivors identify themselves once they realized the old US government is gone? Mitro 16:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

How about the Allied States of America or Federated States of America??


 * I think they would try to refind some regional thing up there...to identify and be proud of... though i got no insight what in this region is hisrorically going on...Xi&#39;Reney 10:43, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Here are some ideas: Great Plains Defense Association, the Prairie League, or Provisional Government of the United States of America ? Mitro 01:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Extent of nation
The map on your right is what I think is the most realistic extent of this new nation all things considered. I have even come up some ideas for different regional governments (states?) inside these borders:


 * Montana (Centered around state capitol)
 * Kootenai (Western Montana and parts of Northern Idaho)
 * Absaroka (Portions of southeastern Montana and northern Wyoming)
 * Wyoming (Centered around State capitol)
 * Lakota (covers the western parts of the Dakotas around the Sioux reservations, possibly autonomous)
 * Nebraska (portions of western Nebraska that have survived relatively intact)
 * Kansas (portions of northwestern Kansas that survived relatively intact)
 * Idaho (portions of southwestern Idaho that survived)

I tried to reach 13 for the sake of the flag already posted. I was thinking about the isolated communities mentioned and there may be some scattered around the south and east, but we want to stay away from the west to avoid causing problems to the TL. Southern Utah and parts of Missouri are a possibility. I would avoid going to far south into Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas, since its more likely that any survivors there would look to Mexico since it is closer and stable. We also may want to consider Canada exactly north of the Montana border. After Doomsday survival would be more important then national borders for people cut off from their national governments.

I've been thinking about the history of this region and here is a very rough draft: Doomsday happens and things get tough. No central government, lack of communication. Local governments become the most important. After a few years things get relatively easier, contact between places throughout Great Plains/Midwest (whatever) return. Eventually major leaders realize that they had it relatively easy compared to the rest of the country, but so far there is little to no contact with the rest of the world. Eventually the Sioux begin expanding after declaring independence as the Republic of Lakota. Several communities band together in a military alliance to fight them, it eventually evolves into a nation based off American governmental principles with a few emergency provisions thrown in since things are still hairy in the world. Eventually peace happens between new US and Lakota. Lakota may join eventually as a state, an autonomous member, or may even stay independent despite what I put on the map. Eventually an expedition from the MSP that crosses the irradiated desert between Nevada and Idaho comes upon them and they are reunited with the rest of the world.

Thoughts, comments? Mitro 16:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * So, those eight on your list, plus five smaller settlements somewhere else? That sounds good to me.  Benkarnell 19:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that this current article just needs to be scrapped just as you've suggested.


 * As for what you've written I think you're on a good track. I have the following questions/comments


 * Mormons, the Hutterites and other farming communities, + Native Americans, if they could maintain their communities in the aftermath, would be likely sources of a new government.
 * What population centers if any survived?
 * While I'm not a military strategist, I can say that most likely Las Vegas is a nuclear death trap and the prevailing NW winds have likely carried the fall out toward Saint George. At the same time, that time of year the storms come out of the Pacific NW about every three days, so it would be more likely that SE Idaho would be less irradiated.
 * What do you think?--Louisiannan 22:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As for nuclear strikes, I can see them hitting in Wyoming, Montana, etc. because of the silos. Utah, unless it's the population center of Salt Lake/Ogden/Provo that each get a bomb, there are a lot of people in the mountain valleys that would be protected from the immediate blasts -- if Utah was hit at all.  Dunno.  Just my 2cents.--Louisiannan 22:59, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a hint: try to think cross-border into Southwestern Canada...with the old border becoming history maybe some communities start cooperating. Ican imagine the cities on both sides cooperating with no one willing\able to protect the border of two defunct nations... Or can you imagine a U.S. customs officer or a Mounty standing guard on a borderline in the middle of two deserted countries :)? Passports please,... Xi&#39;Reney 10:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Southern Alberta is filled with US Expats/dual citizens.  I could see them coming on board, if they're not irradiated -- and I still point out the religious communities that could've become a strong force among the survivors, if they haven't been killed off. --Louisiannan 16:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright here are 5 new "states" that bring the number up to 13 so we can keep the flag: Well that gives us 13 states and it should be interesting when writing the history on how Canada got in. Probably going to need a new map though to reflect the Canadian territory. Again though I'm probably not going to get to it anytime soon do to life issues currently. Mitro 17:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Lincoln: located in the small part of the Idaho panhandle that survive
 * Idaho: located in the southeast corner See Below
 * Colorado: small chunk near Nebraska
 * Alberta: portion near Montana
 * Saskatchewan: portion near Montana.


 * I thought Louisiannan's idea about Mormon community sounded about right. Would there have been good reason to nuke Salt Lake City?  Even if there was, there are other population centers in Utah that would have survived, and the Mormons seem more likely to defend one another than to begin marauding and, well, eating each other.  Maybe Utah is a separate entity from this federation.   Benkarnell 21:14, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That is what I was thinking. The deathzones caused by the destruction of Salt Lake City and Denver would be a barrier to any settlements in the south. Mitro 21:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * By that you're meaning that the settlements to the south would become insular? Louisiannan 22:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, they would be cut off from the nation in question both by the devastation and any nomads in the area. Mitro 01:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Fate of Idaho
Much of Idaho that survives is actually claimed by the Mormons -- up until around 1995, when they'll retreat "below" the Mormon Sea -- I'm planning for them to return in 2000, but I suggest that there may be competing claim to the area that will be sorted out soon in a (preferably) non-bloody way. What do you think? --Louisiannan 21:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That might apply for the southern half but the panhandle may not. Mitro 21:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. The panhandle is out of Utah's desire/scope.  They would only claim the settlements in the Snake River Valley, given that these were all historically settled (for the most part) by Mormons.  See my new map on the Utah page to see where I'm talking about (there's some spill over into Wyoming, too.) --Louisiannan 21:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I Created the UAR
I Created the UAR but did not mean for it to be so contradictory. This new idea is much better though and may very well fit into the TL.--Emanresu11

Little fantastical, isn't it?
Wasn't Barack Obama in Boston at Harvard in 1983...or he'd be back home in Chicago, both major cities that would be hit by several nukes. And wasn't Bill Richardson a US Congressman in 1983, and therefore likely to have been killed in the late-night attack on DC?

Also, there were no missile defense systems ready to go in 1983 but the old ABM systems from the Nixon era, which weren't deployed. If there had been, they would have been around the Capital and SAC and NORAD, not random Midwestern cities.
 * Thats essentially been a major problem, see earlier discussions. Mitro 00:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's move this East of the the Missisipi and see what hatches...
For the record, I encourage lively debate on the adoption of any of my ideas.

Hello everyone! My name is Mr. Troska and I just recently registered here in hopes of adding to this atl. I recently emailed Xireny about my idea for potential succesor state located in the CONUS, but I believe that it would only be tenable if centered around certain areas that were missed in the ensuing salvos.

For instance, I envision a limited government comprised mainly of stay behinds, hardliners and bluebloods; perhaps headed by a surviving cabinet member that we failed to mention previously? I could see this government being carried out in opposistion to the principle, "By the people, for the people" but in reality resembling "For the few, by the few"

I see the following areas of the Eastern United States surviving either due to last minute changes in vectoring, little, or no target value or due to gyroscopic failure in most Soviet nuclear devices:

Fort Greyling, Northern Michigan. Little target value, training facility Fort McCoy, Wisconsin. Of mixed importance Fort Bragg, North Carolina. High value target, shifting importance, or malfunctioning device Fort Dix, New Jersey. Target shifted to a surface warfare group in the North Sea Fort Knox, Kentucky. Target shifted to Anderson AFB Guam. Fort Mcpherson Georgia. Missed in Georgia Pattern SNAFU.

Moody AFB, Georgia. Missed in Georgia Pattern SNAFU. Charleston AFB, North Carolina. Target shifted to secondary hit at Beale AFB. Shaw AFB, North Carolina. Target shifted to Fort Wainwright Alask.

Naval Station Kings Bay Georgia. Missed in Georgia Pattern SNAFU. NAS Atlanta, Georgia. Missed in Georgia Pattern SNAFU NAS Pensacola, Florida. Of little tactical value. Naval Station Ingleside, Texas. Target shifted to Barksdale AFB, secondary hit. Philadelphia Naval Yard. Last minute redirect to the USS Enterprise battlegroup in the mediterranean

Along with several national guard facilities that weren't targeted, barring our interests in Panama and Cuba.

Along with these military targets that were omitted from the tactical plan, were three cities that spared destruction as well:

Philadelphia,PA. Target Shifted to Seal Beach Magazine, Long Beach California. Atlanta,GA. Malfunctioning device Richmond,VA. Target shifted at last minute, though still highly irradiated.

And finally, the Raven Rock Complex, (Alternate National Military Command Center) Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center, and the Greenbrier.

These areas were alternatively spared due to both tactical failure and mission failure of Soviet intelligence and weapons systems. I realize that this is a rather large list for those wishing the complete destruction of the CONUS, but this does not in any way guarantee a perfect modicum of their way of life. The standing "government" will virtually be an oligarcharist regime with authority over the afforementioned places, but with little, if any, order prevailing without the countryside.

The military is small, undersupplied and in it's present state inneffective; staffed with a conscript majority impressed into service under the auspices of "emergency powers". Less than 500 operable aircraft, both civilian and military, are available to this part of the US, and close to 30 ships of the navy survived, but all but 3 are rusting at anchor in Philadelphia, Ingleside, Kingsbay. Those 3 are nuclear submarines, and one may still carry ballistic missiles...

On the whole life is bleak, with little commerical communication and most government traffic being encrypted and low power. Perhaps the presence of a hardline regime equipped with the last of the former nations nukes could be a thorn in the side to a seemingly invincible ANZ Commonwealth? More to come later, Thanks for reading,

(Mr. Troska 23:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)) For the record, I encourage lively debate on the adoption of any of my ideas.

We can't have any bombs going off in Cyprus. Mr.Xeight 00:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Just changed it to Anderson AFB Guam, which can be changed to any other location as well; my rationale behind the change in targeting is that over the course of military planning, targets change on a frequent basis, and perhaps the list of locations that I've submitted were omitted from a list of high priority targets the day, or week previous. The current ambiguity of North America for our purposes, give us much latitude in the development of this time line. All in all, I want the surviving officials left behind in the bunkers to either disregard the suspension of the constitution, or even better so, due to the prevailing chaos outside of their controlled areas, never even know of it at all. I see them living under the radar for a time after the discovery of the Municipal States; eventually, the Commonwealth detects encrypted transmissions coming from East of the rockies and sends members of the SASR or it's Commonwealth equivalent to investigate. And upon penetrating the rockies they find pockets of civilization here and there, but only East of the Mississippi River is where they find the remnant government. An overall population of 15,000,000 survivors living in the East and under the authority of the provisional government.

To elucidate as to the nature of it's military, I see an army in present day of close 50,000 men spread throughout the settled areas and smaller frontier installations, they will be comprised of mainly conscripts and the units will be of mainly National Guard, reserve and the remnant active duty lineages. It's Air Force is mainly the remnants of ANG units that existed East of the Rockies, along with the units that existed at the four previously mentioned air bases. It's number will be closer to 10,000, with most aircraft being grounded for want of spares and fuel. Tactical, transport and rotary wings for the air force officially total 500 on government ledgers, but less that half will be operable.

120 C-130 Hercules, 30 light to medium transports (C-123, C-12 Huron, etc., ) 80 A-7 Corsairs, 80 F-4 Phantoms, 40 F-16's, 80 various helicopters, and about 40 heavy lift, airborne early warning and tanking aircraft. The survival of the Davis Monthan bone yard is open for debate too.

The Navy, Coast Guard and Marines fell by the wayside, with 30 ships rusting at the keel in Ingleside, Kings Bay and Philadelphia, the active navy is limited to 3 nuclear submarines with the rest at anchor for want of fuel. A rough list of surviving combatants is as follows.

Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates

FFG-15 Cliff Sprague FFG-25 Copeland FFG-26 Gallery FFG-30 Reid

Spruance class destroyers

DDG-992 Fletcher DDG-981 John Hancock

Charles F Adams class DDG-12 Robinson DDG-16 Joseph Strauss DDG-15 Berkeley

Farragut class destroyer

DDG-40 Coontz

Ohio Class Submarine

SSBN-657 Francis Scott Key

Los Angeles Class Submarines

SSN-711 San Francisco SSN-707 Portsmouth

Kitty Hawk class aircraft carrier

CV-66 America.

16 miscellaneous support ships, and about 3 dozen ghost fleet vessels that are in decay. (Mr. Troska 02:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC))

Utah and the NAU
Would there be approach to Utah about membership? You also have Idaho listed in twice, and there's some level of claim from Utah on that territory, to keep in mind. Louisiannan 22:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that you have tensions with Utah listed. Let's discuss what tensions may arise.  I don't know that Utah would be too resistant to a mutual protection/non-aggression agreement initially.  There might be some question about the status of Idaho, since most of the people in the area that Utah claims are "ethnic" Mormons.  Let's chat about it. Louisiannan 22:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for responding, I also made the correction about listing Idaho twice. I'm basing the problems between Utah and the NAU from the map you made showing the disputed lands in Idaho and Wyoming.  The territory seems rather large and I'm worried that makes it more likely that both nations get along coldly.  Despite the Mormon population in Idaho, that is only about 1/5th of the population, and there are no doubt non-Morman survivor communities in southern Idaho that would gravitate toward NAU (and wherever I find a good place to be a capitol).  I'm open to suggestions though as I'm still working on the history of the nation. Mitro 22:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of SE Idaho and Western Wyoming is LDS, actually--there are some Non-LDS communities, but remember that one of the first temples built by the LDS church outside of Utah was the Idaho Falls temple -- and in that day, they only built temples in large concentrations of Mormons.
 * I was under the impression that the western/northern reaches of Idaho were much more a no-man's land, and for that reason the folks there had claimed unity with the Utah/Deseret government. I think that while both "nations" would claim it, there could be some peace accords and movement toward Unity, especially since, 'after all, we're all Americans, right?' --Louisiannan 22:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What I would suggest is some initial rough times (maybe skirmishes, like the Israelis and Palestinians here), but sincere negotiations in the last year or so have moved the peace process forward, and some sort of accession treaty will be signed bringing Utah into the NAU. --Louisiannan 22:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)