Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Archives: to 10/27/16 ● to 12/22/16 =Algorithms=

Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 2]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 3]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 3]

Scandinavian Involvement in the War of Austrian Succession

 * Pre-war stage
 * Burgundy and Prussia: 96.6
 * Population: 32 (burgundy) + 22 (Prussia) + 1.6 (Hansa)
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * Scandinavia: 57
 * Population: 32
 * Government: 5
 * Economy: 10
 * Technology: 10
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Skagerrak
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 16.5
 * Navy Size: 16.5 (550)
 * Location: +3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -3
 * Scandinavia
 * Result: 3.75
 * Navy size: 2.25 (75)
 * Location: +3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -2

Result: Scandinavian fleet defeated, blockade of the Oresund and Scandinavia as a whole is established. Result: Blockade of the oresund continues.
 * Battle Stage
 * Breaking of the Oresund Blockade
 * Scandinavia
 * Navy Size:+6
 * Location: +3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder:-3
 * Result +6
 * Burgundy
 * Navy size: +6.45 (50 Burgundy + 165 Prussia = 205)
 * Location +3
 * Attrition
 * Blunder:-1
 * Result:+8.45
 * Battle stage
 * Battle outside Kiel
 * Scandinavia:
 * Navy Size:+5.1 (170 ships)
 * Location:+3
 * Attrition
 * Blunder
 * Prussia:
 * Navy size: +5.79 (193)
 * Location: +3
 * Attrition
 * Blunder:
 * Result:


 * Second Battle of the Oresund
 * Burgundy-Prussia
 * Result: 35
 * Navy size: 12 (250+150)
 * Location: 3
 * Great Admiral: 20 (Henri of Burgundy)
 * Blunder:
 * Scandinavia
 * Result: 7.59
 * Navy size: 4.59 (153)
 * Location: 3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder:


 * Third Battle of the Oresund
 * Burgundy-Prussia-Hansa
 * Result: 25.2
 * Navy size: 22.2 (100 [Burgundy] + 140 [Prussia] + 500 [Hansa])
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder:
 * Scandinavia:
 * Result:
 * Navy size: 6.21
 * Navy size: 3.21 (107)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder:


 * Final result:
 * Red Lion Alliance: 96.6 + 16.5 + 8.45 + 8.79 + 35 + 25.2 = 190.54
 * Scandinavia: 57 + 3.75 + 6 + 8.1 + 7.59 + 6.21 = 88.65

Discussion
When the hell did Scandinavia have a population of 8 million? For crying out loud here. Person67 (talk) 08:28, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

Assuming Norway has a population of about 500,000. Sweden a population of about 1 million and Denmark has about 6,000,000 the most you could strech it to is 2.5 million. Person67 (talk) 09:14, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. I am that guy (talk) 18:04, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

Prussian ships added with Nks approval. I am that guy (talk) 22:30, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

Suppression of Singapore

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Burgundy: 42.6
 * Population: 1.6
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * Singapore: 10.04
 * Population: .04
 * Government: 5
 * Economy: 5
 * Tech: 10
 * Battle stage
 * 2nd Battle of Batam
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 6.11
 * Army: 6.61 (15,000, 70 ships)
 * Location: 3.5
 * Attrition: -4
 * Blunder:
 * Singaporean Rebels
 * Result: 1.3
 * Army: .3 (1,000)
 * Location: 4
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -3

Final result: Singapore is re-conquered

First Battle of Poznan

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bulgaria: 60.06
 * Population: 32.56 Bulgaria 6.64 million Serbia 1.5 million
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +6.5
 * Tech: 15
 * Poland: 46.08
 * Population: 20.8 5.2 million
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +5
 * Tech: +15
 * Battle stage
 * Battle of Poznan
 * Bulgaria
 * Result: 25.4
 * Army: 21.9 (73,000)
 * Location: +3.5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod
 * Poland
 * Result: 19.6
 * Army: 15.6 (52,000)
 * Location: 4
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod

Scores:

Bulgaria: 93.46 (10%) concentration bonus

Poland: 65.68

Result: Bulgarian Victory: 142%

Casualties

Bulgaria: 7300

Poland: 7800

Second Battle of Poznan

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bulgaria: 60.06
 * Population: 32.56 Bulgaria 6.64 million Serbia 1.5 million
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +6.5
 * Tech: 15
 * Poland: 46.08
 * Population: 20.8 5.2 million
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +5
 * Tech: +15
 * Battle stage
 * Battle of Poznan
 * Bulgaria
 * Result: 25.4
 * Army: 21.9 (73,000)
 * Location: +3.5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod
 * Poland
 * Result: 17.26
 * Army: 13.26 (36,400)
 * Location: 4
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod

Scores:

Bulgaria: 93.46 (10%) concentration bonus

Poland: 63.34

Result: Bulgar victory 142%+147% = 289%

(Same casualty figures)

Polish fighting retreat.

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bulgaria: 60.06
 * Population: 32.56 Bulgaria 6.64 million Serbia 1.5 million
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +6.5
 * Tech: 15
 * Poland: 46.08
 * Population: 20.8 5.2 million
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +5
 * Tech: +15
 * Battle stage
 * Battle of Poznan
 * Bulgaria
 * Result: 22.9
 * Army: 21.9 (73,000)
 * Location: +1
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod
 * Poland
 * Result:
 * Army: 11.9 (36,400)
 * Location: +1 (battle has moved from Poznan)
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod

Scores:

Bulgaria: 90.96 (10%) concentration bonus

Poland: 57.98

Final result: 156% +289% = 345%

Casualties:

Bulgaria: 4380

Poland: 10920

Polish fighting retreat.

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bulgaria: 60.06
 * Population: 32.56 Bulgaria 6.64 million Serbia 1.5 million
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +6.5
 * Tech: 15
 * Poland: 46.08
 * Population: 20.8 5.2 million
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +5
 * Tech: +15
 * Battle stage
 * Battle of Galicia
 * Bulgaria
 * Result: 22.9
 * Army: 21.9 (73,000)
 * Location: +1
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod
 * Poland
 * Result:
 * Army: 7.62 (25,480)
 * Location: +1 (battle has moved from Poznan)
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod

Scores:

Bulgaria: 91.16 (10%) concentration bonus

Poland: 54.7

Final result: 345% +166% = 511%

Casualties:

Bulgaria: 730

Poland: 12,740

Discussion
I am majorly confused by this. The algorithm clearly states: "There will be one algorithim, for every front, every year a war carries on" and this is how I've been doing all my algorithms. So how does Bulgaria get off four battles on the exact same front (note that the battles have the exact same name) within one turn? Surely, Bulgaria and Russia would take a couple of years to completely annex all of Poland. This isn't 1938.

Secondly, I'm really confused as to the numbers of soldiers being used. Bulgaria uses the same 73,000 troops for every battle against Poland, in spite of the casualties from each previous battle. Presuming Bulgaria replenishes these casualties, then in total Bulgaria and Serbia combined are feilding 145,000 troops at once (not counting the casualties at the end of every algo, as there is no need to replenish those). Now, Bulgaria and Serbia's populations combined are 8.14 million, and the algo caluclates that the maximum troops for that population for an Absolute Feudal Monarchy would be 81,400. Even then, as Bulgaria is not being invaded, there should be no reason to raise 100% of available troops.

There are other things I find odd, which I'll pass over because they don't affect the outcome as much, such as how Bulgaria and England have navies in the same sea, etc. I know that Wart made a huge blunder to backstab Bulgaria, but that doesn't justify making light work of algos that effect other people like Nk and IATG. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  21:29, January 15, 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Nate here, the Battles of Poznan and the subsequent retreats are all on the same front, thus these battles should take place over the course of four years, not one year. 카와이카매] ([[User talk:|카와이카매talk) 04:56, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

The Algo is by battle not by front per year thats a holdover from the other algo that was not changed when Lx formatted the new algo. I have seen another formatting issues in the naval location stuff with a whole chunk missing. This is partially my fault cause when he formatted it i was dealing with some serious personal issues at the time so im going to look into fiing the other stuff in a bit if i can get the consensus needed to fix and bail on the Austria algo i also have already done.

Outside of this no i do not have 145,000 troops. My explanation of troop movement is as such. The force of 42,000 was deployed to hungary to help elizabeth and another force of 18,000 was sent through poland. This still left about 6000 troops plus another 500 from georgia who is a national friend via the orthodox league. this leaves a small but potent garrison in bulgaria which means of my raised troops (i have a large standing army due to the neighboring threats specifically being bordered by the Austro-hungarian thing, the Ottomans, and their backer the Caliphate.

So now with 42,000 in Hungary and the combined Serbo-Bulgar force doing a nice little raid into prussia consisting of roughly 30,000 troops (numbers are fuzzy it came out to total 73,000 troops raised all together for this) the Polish decided to betray me and form up at poznan. This backfired obviously and the Russians, Kievans, and myself all conducted a massive reprisal. Considering i have literally been the 100% reason Poland has survived in a noticeable state the past 60-70 years, this backstab is kind of a huge blow to my Tsar, and pretty much my entire nobility who is instrinsically connected to whatever is left of the Polish nobility after all the wars and uprisings and such. So this forced me to re-divert literally everything i had up and running to Poland and since WRTO is not exactly strategically minded he told me all his troops were in Poznan. I figured with all them in poznan and my forces able to push north through hungary i was able to surround the Polish and conduct two back to back battles with my full military strength. The third algo allowed for the mandated tactical disengage due to the 300% limit on it which caused massive casualties (which i think can reasonably be assumed were taken breaking out of the poznan encirclement). Rather than let poland live i continued on and pursued and since the Polish either run into the Kievan or Russian armies whichever direction they go means they can move at most 15-30 miles, with me in pursuit its safe to say i can engage further and just wipe them out hence two more algos all in the small space.

With the 60% rebuild of force allowed i just kept reinforcing and then i took it too far and marched on austria. So ill concede the austria algo, and move back south this next turn rather than doing all that movement in one turn like i had done

Anglo-Bulgarian naval offensive

 * Pre-war
 * Burgundy: 73
 * Population: 32
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * England, Bulgaria and Iberia: 53
 * Population: 5.84 (Bulgaria) + 14 (England)= 64.64
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 12.5 ([15+20+10]/2)
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage
 * Battle of the Southern Bight
 * Burgundian fleet
 * Result: 20
 * Navy size: 18 (600)
 * Location: 3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -1
 * Anglo- Bulgarian- Iberian fleet
 * Result: 13.91
 * Navy size: 14.91 (497)
 * Location: 3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -4


 * Raid on the Medway
 * Pre-war
 * Burgundy: 73
 * Population: 32
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * England, Bulgaria and Iberia: 89.34
 * Population: 5.84 (Bulgaria) + 45 (Iberia) =  50.84
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 17.5 ([15+20]/2)
 * Tech: 15


 * Burgundy
 * Result: 36.2
 * Navy size: 16.2 (540)
 * Location: 3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -3
 * Great Admiral: 20 (Henri, Crown Prince of Burgundy)
 * Anglo-Bulgarian Fleet
 * Result: 16.6
 * Navy size: 18.6 (420+200)
 * Location: 3
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: -5


 * Second Battle of the Southern Bight
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 36
 * Navy size: 15 (500)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -2
 * Great Admiral: 20
 * Allied fleet
 * Result: 16.81
 * Navy size: 15.81 (527)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -2


 * Battle of the Isle of Thanet
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 33.5
 * Navy size: 13.5 (450)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -3
 * Great Admiral: 20
 * Allied fleet
 * Result: 15.44
 * Navy size: 13.44 (448)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -1

Final result:
 * Burgundy: 36.2 + 20 + 73 + 36 + 33.5= 188.7
 * Anglo & Co.: 89.34 + 13.91 + 16.6 + 16.81 + 15.44= 160.56

Discussion
Approval of Great Admiral done by Scraw. I am that guy (talk) 00:30, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

You can't a great admiral unless declared in the mod events and I would judge that explorer guy you had was a great admiral so it seems like you have had 2 great admirals back to back and this one wasn't even declared in the mod events.. What the hell is this raid on Medway and why are the Iberians not counted. The Iberians come with the Bulgarians.Where does 420 and 540 ships come from. The Medway is an area in England. It is simple the Bulgarian fleet sailed around to Iberia and joined with the Bulgarian fleet where it proceeded to England. You can't sepeate the fleets. Person67 (talk) 07:28, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

From what scraw has said you can not retroactively apply your GA to this algo. 1574 and beyond only -Feud

The Iberians coming with the Bulgarians is ridiculous. The Iberians have no real cause to join the war until England is attacked, then they can claim "defending an ally" and send ships to help it. Nevertheless I can add the Iberian fleet to the Medway algo because I thought the turn had rolled over. Also, Lodewijk Bonapaart wasn't a great admiral, wtf, where did you even get that information? The 420 and 540 ships are the fleets adjusted for casualties from the Southern Bight battle. Yes the Medway is in England, that didn't stop the Dutch from doing the same thing otl. Like I said, I'll add the 200 Iberian ships to Medway. I am that guy (talk) 15:45, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

No they can join if they want. Why not? You hold the Azores you have been tense before there is reasoning for Iberia to join. Bulgaria sails past and the the Iberians join up with them because the English have already asked them for good reason because you have colonies near Iberia. I don't object to raiding you the Medway but if it's not in your turn it did not happen. Ok so he wasn't a GA but it still wasn't in last mod events although there is now a GA so for 1574 turn you can claim to have a GA but since you haven't posted a turn and nor have I you can't just attack the Medway unilaterally. Especially when I still protests of the previous batte for the Southern Bight in that Iberia is a part of it. Person67 (talk) 16:07, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

The Azores haven't been owned by Portugal in almost two hundred years, to use EUIV terms, they've lost their core on it. Once more, they could hardly be considered a core Portuguese territory when it was (it was only re-discovered a decade or so before I conquered it). So this whole "war of reconquest" over tiny Azores is ridiculous. As for the colonies, we have a treaty dividing the Caribbean between us and recognizing the others claims, there hasn't been any sort of tension in half a century. The only just reason for Portugal to join is coming to the aid of England, which it can only claim after the English fleet is attacked. To use your logic, you posted in the 1573 turn that you agreed to link up with the Bulgarian fleet (no mention of Iberians). It wasn't until hours after the battle of southern Bight algo had been put up, that you asked Iberia to join, and they sent ships. If you'd posted that you ask Iberia to send ships at the time you said you're linking up with the Bulgarians, I'd say you have a case. I am that guy (talk) 16:27, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

It's all the same turn, everything happened in 1573, I posted after Iberia. Iberia can join because you have colonies which it wants. Azores, Singapore, the Carribean, Guyana. I said in my turn that Iberia should link up with Bulgarian fleet, it did link up with it. That happened last turn you can't dispute it in the algo when it is an algo issue. The Iberians joined up with the fleet protest it in game not in algo. In my own turn I said about the Iberians. Person67 (talk) 18:50, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

I posted the Southern Bight algo yesterday morning, and all day no one said a thing. You never suggested to Bulgaria in your dip that they should try to link up with the Iberians, nor did Feud even say he wanted to or hoped to do anything of the sort. You two were willing to to accept the outcome of the battle (Feud even said the navies were bottled up because of it), so don't you can retroactively add ships you never claimed could be there for all day yesterday. I am that guy (talk) 19:23, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

Alright, here is what I will coneede. Iberia has no involvment in the first algo. The second algo is not in 1573 it is in 1574 and will involve Iberia. You need to post about the Raid on Medway because there is no mention of it and for location we gain advantge of near capital obviously.Person67 (talk) 19:38, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

As I said on chat, I agree with the compromise, as for the location Feud has decreed both sides in a naval battle get a general +3 location while he reworks that portion of the algo (he made this decision during the algo discussions for the Skagerrak battle). I am that guy (talk) 20:44, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

I am confused when did I send my fleet out, my fleet are in port protected by a chain boom. Person67 (talk) 07:48, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Hungaro-Bulgarian Offensive.

 * Pre-war


 * Bulgaria/Hungary: 85


 * Population: 61.84 6.56 Bulgaria 4.2 Hungary 1.5 Serbia 3.2 Poland
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +15 (bulgaria Leads)
 * Tech: 15 (Bulgaria Leads)
 * Austria: 53


 * Population: 32.8 Austria 5.5 mil 1.5 Bavaria 1.3 venice.
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +10
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage


 * Battle of the Frontier


 * Bulgarian Alliance


 * Result: 54


 * +27 Army size: 27.9  Bulgaria (50,000 Serbia and poland included) Hungary (40,000)
 * Location: +2
 * Attrition:
 * Great General: +25 Bogdan Velitchkov
 * Blunder: ??
 * Austrian forces


 * Result: 26.9


 * Army size: 24.9 (55,000 Austria) 15,000 Bavaria 13,000 (Venice)
 * Location: +2
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: ??

Final Scores:

Justice League: 139

Legion of Doom: 79.9

Percent: 174% victory for Bulgaria and friends battle went badly for Austria but their army is still in the field just barely.

Casualties:

Bulgaria and Friends: 9000

Austria: 12,450

Discussion

Hungaro-Bulgarian Offensive.

 * Pre-war


 * Bulgaria/Hungary: 85


 * Population: 61.84 6.56 Bulgaria 4.2 Hungary 1.5 Serbia 3.2 Poland
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +15 (bulgaria Leads)
 * Tech: 15 (Bulgaria Leads)
 * Austria: 53


 * Population: 32.8 Austria 5.5 mil 1.5 Bavaria 1.3 venice.
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +10
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage


 * Battle of the Frontier


 * Bulgarian Alliance


 * Result: 51.3


 * +24.3 Army size:   Bulgaria (41,000 Serbia and poland included) Hungary (40,000)
 * Location: +2
 * Attrition:
 * Great General: +25 Bogdan Velitchkov
 * Blunder: ??
 * Austrian forces


 * Result: 23


 * Army size: 21 (47,000 Austria) 12,000 Bavaria 11,000 (Venice)
 * Location: +2
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: ??

Final Scores:

Justice League: 136.3

Legion of Doom: 79.9

Percent: 170% +174% = %344 victory for Bulgarian alliance, Austrian forces take major casualties and retreat towards vienna.

Casualties:

Bulgaria and Friends: 4860 casualties

Austria: 21,000

Hungaro-Bulgarian Offensive.

 * Pre-war


 * Bulgaria/Hungary: 85


 * Population: 61.84 6.56 Bulgaria 4.2 Hungary 1.5 Serbia 3.2 Poland
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +15 (bulgaria Leads)
 * Tech: 15 (Bulgaria Leads)
 * Austria: 53


 * Population: 32.8 Austria 5.5 mil 1.5 Bavaria 1.3 venice.
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: +10
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage


 * Battle of the Frontier


 * Bulgarian Alliance


 * Result: 53.8


 * +24.3 Army size:   Bulgaria (41,000 Serbia and poland included) Hungary (40,000)
 * Location: +4.5
 * Attrition:
 * Great General: +25 Bogdan Velitchkov
 * Blunder: ??
 * Austrian forces


 * Result: 23


 * Army size: 21 (47,000 Austria) 12,000 Bavaria 11,000 (Venice)
 * Location: +6
 * Attrition:
 * Blunder: ??

Final Scores:

Justice League: 139.64

Legion of Doom: 76.8

Percent: 170% +174% +181% = %525 Bulgaria and Hungary smash through the last of the austrian army and seize Vienna Casualties:

Bulgaria and Friends: 1600 casualties

Austria: 52,000

Aryavarta-Gujarat War
I assume that Gujarat's pop. would be 4 million. I have 200,000 troops there.
 * Pre War Stage
 * Aryavarta (Attacking)- 235
 * Population- 200
 * Government- 5
 * Economy- 15
 * Technology- 15
 * Gujarat Sultanate (Defending)- 43
 * ​Population- 16
 * Government- 7
 * Economy- 10
 * Technology- 10
 * War Stage
 * Battle of Patan 1574
 * Delhi Raj: 47
 * ​Troops 45
 * Location +2
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Gujarat Sultanate: 16
 * ​Troops 12 (All of their army)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryvarta has a decisive victory. Gujarati forces retreat. Aryavartiya forces suffer 5% casulaties while Gujarati forces suffer 30%.
 * ​Delhi Score 282
 * Bengal Score 75
 * Battle Tier 376%
 * Battle of Nadiad 1574
 * Delhi Raj: 63.5
 * ​Troops 60 (Supplied with another 50,000 troops)
 * Location +3.5
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Gujarat Sultanate: 16
 * ​Troops 12 (All of their army)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryvarta has a decisive victory. Gujarati forces retreat. Aryavartiya forces suffer 5% casulaties while Gujarati forces suffer 40%.
 * ​Delhi Score 298.5
 * Bengal Score 75
 * Battle Tier 400%
 * 1st year of the Siege of Ahmedabad 1574
 * Delhi Raj: 70
 * ​Troops 60 (Supplied with another 50,000 troops)
 * Location +10
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Gujarat Sultanate: 23
 * ​Troops 11 (All of their army)
 * Location +12
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryvarta has a decisive victory. Aryavartiya forces suffer 5% casulaties while Gujarati forces suffer 40%.
 * ​Delhi Score 305
 * Bengal Score 82
 * Battle Tier 371%
 * 2nd year of the Siege of Ahmedabad 1575
 * Delhi Raj: 70
 * ​Troops 60
 * Location +10
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Gujarat Sultanate: 19
 * ​Troops 7
 * Location +12
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryvarta has a decisive victory. Aryavartiya forces suffer 5% casulaties while Gujarati forces suffer 40% casualties. Siege score crosses 500% in favor of Delhi. The siege of Ahmedabad ends with all Gujarati forces captured or killed.
 * ​Delhi Score 305
 * Bengal Score 78
 * Battle Tier 391%

Boheminan-austrian war
bohmeina attacking

Loctions:  0

pop; +15

goverment +7

eco +5

tech +10

austria defending

loctions o

pop +5

govemerment +7

eco + 10

tech +10

the war

bohemina

50

+3.5

denfnd

45

+4

scores bohemina 90 austia 81

bohemian  vitcroy Bibleboyd316 (talk) 21:42, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

Is this retconned or is it legitmate? Person67 (talk) 18:26, January 17, 2017 (UTC)

This is nonsense.

10:35, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Pre war stage
Attack on Bilzen
 * English colonies of Western Arcadia, New Gwynedd and Avalon: +31.24
 * Population: +0.24
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +10
 * Tech: +15
 * Burgundian colonies of New Netherlands and New Flanders: +41.12
 * Population: +0.12
 * Government: +6
 * Economy: +10
 * Tech: +15
 * Avalon: +17.8
 * Troop: +13.8
 * Location: +4 (Major city)
 * Blunder:
 * New Netherlands: +4.09
 * Troops: +0.09
 * Location: +4
 * Blunder:

March along the Deleware

 * New Gwynedd: +2.2
 * Troops: 1.2
 * Location: +1
 * Blunder:
 * New Amsterdam: +1.09
 * Troops: 0.09
 * Location: +1
 * Blunder:

Invasion of New Flanders

 * Western Arcadia:+1.6
 * Troops:+0.6
 * Location: +1
 * Blunder:
 * New Flanders: 1
 * Troops: You have 40 troops can I just say 0
 * Location: +1
 * Blunder:

Final result:
England: 31.24+ 5.38+ 1.12+ 1.06=  52.84 Burgundy: +41.24 + 4.09+ 1.09+ 1.0 = 47.42

Discussion
This algo doesn't work for colonies. Person67 (talk) 22:14, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Me and Scraw have agreed you just overrun the colonies. Also we agreed until colonies get their own population bases to fight wars on their own to a degree then the troop count is just going to be multiplied times 10 here and thats only if you personally bring troops from the homeland. If you win in any colony this size its seized. This is mostly due to the fact colonies in this era did not really participate much in the wars. Not on the scale we are all thinking of. -Feud

I would like to point out that Person has not yet attacked New Amsterdam itself, New Netherlands capital and where I sent the reinforcements. I am that guy (talk) 23:18, January 18, 2017 (UTC)

Ibero-Burgundian colonial war

 * Pre-war stage
 * Burgundian colony of Kuba
 * Population: .3
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 10
 * Tech: 15
 * Iberian colonies of Maiam, New Lusitania, and Mississippi
 * Population: 16.8 (4.2 mil)
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 10
 * Tech: 15
 * Battle stage
 * Invasion of Mississippi
 * Kuba
 * Result: 5.5
 * Troop size: .15 (500) * 10 = 1.5
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder:
 * Mississippi
 * Result: 6.9
 * Troop size: (3,000) = .9
 * Location: 6
 * Blunder:


 * Attack on Nova Lusitania
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 7
 * Army size: .3 * 10 = 3
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder:
 * Nova Lusitania
 * Result: 8.7
 * Army size: (9,000) = 2.7
 * Location: 6
 * Blunder:


 * Final result: Invasion repelled

Discussion
As per the new Colonial algo rules the colonies are overrun. I am that guy (talk) 23:14, January 20, 2017 (UTC)

Oh so many problems with this. Still need blunder. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 23:26, January 23, 2017 (UTC)

Scando-Burgundian colonial war

 * Pre-war stage
 * Burgundian colonies
 * Population: .3
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 10
 * Tech: 15
 * Scandy colonies
 * Population: .06
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 10
 * Tech: 10


 * Battle stage
 * Attack on Scandy colony in Newfoundland
 * Burgundy:
 * Result: 2.5
 * Army size: .15 * 10 = 1.5
 * location: 1
 * Blunder:
 * Scandy Newfoundland
 * Result: 1
 * Army size: 0
 * Location: 1
 * Blunder:


 * Attack on Scandy Nova Scotia
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 1.5
 * Army size: .15 * 10 = 1.5
 * Location: 1
 * Blunder:
 * Scandy Nova Scotia
 * Note: it has been said repeatedly the "English" colony on Nova Scotia is actually Scandinavian.
 * Result: 1
 * Army size: 0
 * Location: 1
 * Blunder:


 * Final Result: Scandinavian colonies are seized

Burgundian Naval offensive

 * Pre-war stage
 * Burgundy: 73
 * Population: 32
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * Iberia: 85
 * Population: 44
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage
 * Battle off Galicia
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 35.5
 * Navy size: 16.5 (550)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -4
 * Great Admiral: 20
 * Iberia
 * Result: 21
 * Navy size: 21 (700)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -3


 * Battle of Cadiz
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 35.85
 * Navy size: 14.85 (495)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -2
 * Great Admiral: 20
 * Iberia
 * Result: 18.85
 * Navy size: 17.85 (595)
 * Location: 3
 * Blunder: -2


 * Final stage:

Return of Archduke Otto

 * Pre-war
 * Holy Roman Empire: 103
 * Population: 30 (Prussia) + 32 (Burgundy)
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 20
 * Tech: 15
 * Austria-Hungary: 70.36
 * Population: 32.8 + 6.56
 * Government: 6
 * Economy: 10
 * Tech: 15


 * Battle stage:
 * Battle of Vienna
 * Holy Roman Empire
 * Result: 69
 * Army size: 36 (120,000)
 * Location: 8
 * Great General: 25
 * Blunder:
 * Austria-Hungary
 * Result: 30.69
 * Army size: 15 + 3.69
 * Location: 12
 * Blunder:


 * Battle of Graz
 * Holy Roman Empire
 * Result: 63.83
 * Army size: 34.83 (116,100)
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder:
 * Great General: 25
 * Austria-Hungary
 * Result: 21
 * Army size: 17
 * Location: 4
 * Blunder:

Final result: 224% + 303% = 527% victory, Elisabethan forces are defeated and Otto reclaims the Austrian crown.

Japanese Invasion of Busan (1580)

 * Pre-war stage
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +92.5
 * Penalties – +0 (Naval concentration)
 * Population – +68 (17 million)
 * Government: +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economic tier – +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III, not listed so assuming)
 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +84.5
 * Population – +56 (14 million)
 * Government: +7 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economy: +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology: +15 (Tier IV)


 * Battle-stage
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +61.2
 * Naval – (1,000 * .03) = +30 (+10% = +33)
 * Army size – (100,000/1,000 * 0.3) = +30
 * Location – +8 (assaulting well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -3
 * Attrition – -10% (7; light winter)


 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +29.5
 * Naval – (100/10 * 0.3) = +3
 * Army size – (50,000/1000 = 50 * 0.3) = +15 (+10% = +16.5)
 * Location – +12 (defending well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -2


 * Casualties
 * Japan (attacking)
 * 100,000 * 0.1 = 10,000 casualties
 * 1,000 * 0.1 = 100 ships
 * Korea (defending)
 * 50,000 * 0.15 = 7,500 casualties
 * 100 ships * 0.15 = 15 ships


 * Final stage
 * Korea (defending) – (29.5 - 61.2) + 84.5 = +52.8
 * Japan (attacking) – +92.5

175% in favour of Japan. Japan maintains sporadically controlled chunks of land in Busan and in the surrounding area.

Korean counteroffensive on Busan (1581)

 * Pre-war stage
 * Japan (defending)
 * Result – +92.5
 * Penalties – +0 (Naval concentration)
 * Population – +68 (17 million)
 * Government: +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economic tier – +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III, not listed so assuming)
 * Korea (attacking)
 * Result – +84.5
 * Population – +56 (14 million)
 * Government: +7 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economy: +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology: +15 (Tier IV)


 * Battle-stage
 * Japan (defending)
 * Result – +65.7
 * Naval – (900/10 * 0.3) = +27 (+10% = +29.7)
 * Army size – (90,000/1,000 * 0.3) = +27
 * Location – +12 (Defending well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -3
 * Attrition: 0 (Defending)
 * Korea (attacking)
 * Result – +57.375
 * Naval – (300 * 0.03) = +9
 * Army size – (180,000/1,000 = 180 * 0.3) = +54 (+10% = +59.5)
 * Location – +8 (Attacking well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -2
 * Attrition: -25%  (4;moderate winter)


 * Casualties
 * Japan (defending)
 * 90,000 * 0.10 = 9,000 casualties
 * 900 * 0.10 = 90 ships
 * Korea (attacking)
 * 180,000 * 0.15 = 27,000 casualties
 * 300 ships * 0.15 = 45 ships


 * Final stage
 * Korea (attacking) – (57.375-65.7)= -8.325 +84.5 = 76.175
 * Japan (attacking) –  92.5
 * 92.5/76.175= 1.21430915655

121.43% in favour of Japan, Japan defends from the Korean counteroffensive and maintains the previously captured land in Busan.

Japanese invasion of Hwataedo (1581)

 * Pre-war stage
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +92.5
 * Penalties – +0 (Naval concentration)
 * Population – +68 (17 million)
 * Government: +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economic tier – +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III, not listed so assuming)
 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +84.5
 * Population – +56 (14 million)
 * Government: +7 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economy: +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology: +15 (Tier IV)


 * Battle-stage
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +1.9
 * Naval – (100 * 0.03) = +1 (+10% = +1.1)
 * Army size – (1,000/1,000 * 0.3) = +0.3
 * Location – +3.5 (near a city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -3
 * Attrition – 0
 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +5.75
 * Naval – (20 * 0.03) = +0.6
 * Army size – (5,000/1,000 * 0.3) = 1.5 (+10% = 1.65)
 * Location – +3.5 (near a city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -0


 * Casualties
 * Japan (attacking)
 * 1,000 * 0.1 = 100 casualties
 * 100 * 0.1 = 10 ships
 * Korea (defending)
 * 5,000 * 0.15 = 750 casualties
 * 30 ships * 0.15 = 5 ships


 * Final stage
 * Korea (defending) – +84.5
 * Japan (attacking) – (1.9 - 5.75) = 88.65

104.9% in favour of Japan

Gyeongsang front (1582)

 * Pre-war stage
 * Japanese coalition (attacking)
 * Result – +96.7
 * Penalties – +0 (Naval concentration)
 * Population – Giapan (leading): +68 (17 million), Portugal: +2.6 (13 million) Burgundy: +1.6 (8 million) = 72.2
 * Government: +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economic tier – +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III, not listed so assuming)
 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +84.5
 * Population – +56 (14 million)
 * Government: +7 (Celestial Empire)
 * Economy: +6.5 (Tier IV)
 * Technology: +15 (Tier IV)


 * Battle-stage
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +65.8125
 * Naval – (1,250 * .03) = +37.5 (+10% = +41.25)
 * Army size – (145,000/1,000 * 0.3) = +43.5
 * Location – +8 (assaulting well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -5
 * Attrition – -25% (4; moderate winter)
 * Korea (defending)
 * Result – +79.35
 * Naval – (255/10 * 0.3) = +7.65
 * Army size – (190,000/1000 = 190 * 0.3) = +57 (+10% = +62.7)
 * Location – +12 (defending well-fortified city)
 * Great General/Great Admiral – N/A
 * Blunder – -2


 * Casualties
 * Japan (attacking)
 * 120,000 * 0.15 = 18,000 casualties
 * 1,200 * 0.15 = 180 ships
 * Korea (defending)
 * 190,000 * 0.1 = 190,000 casualties
 * 255 ships * 0.1 = 26 ships


 * Final stage
 * Korea (defending) – 84.5 =
 * Japan (attacking) – (65.8125 - 79.35) + 96.7 = 83.1625

102% in favour of Korea, invasion of Ulsan repelled. Extremely marginal reversion of previous gains in Busan.

2nd Aryavartiya-Bengal War
Bengal and Ava have a population of 27.5 million and their max army size will be 275,000.

Aryavarta-Bengal Front

 * Pre War Stage
 * Aryavarta (Attacking)- 275
 * Population- 240 (55+5)
 * Government- 5
 * Economy- 15
 * Technology- 15
 * Bengal Sultanate (Defending)- 137
 * ​Population- 110
 * Government- 7
 * Economy- 10
 * Technology- 10
 * War Stage
 * Battle of Khagaria 1581
 * Aryavarta: 124
 * ​Troops 120
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 56.5
 * ​Troops 52.5 (175,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder 0
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavartiya forces win. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 399
 * Bengal Score 193.5
 * Battle Tier 206%
 * Battle of Dumka 1581
 * Aryavarta: 124
 * ​Troops 120
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 56.5
 * ​Troops 52.5 (175,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder 0
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavartiya forces win. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 399
 * Bengal Score 193.5
 * Battle Tier 206%
 * Battle of Jalpaiguri 1582
 * Aryavarta: 124
 * ​Troops 120
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 56.5
 * ​Troops 52.5 (175,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder 0
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavartiya forces win. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 399
 * Bengal Score 193.5
 * Battle Tier 206%
 * 1st year of the Siege of Gaur 1582
 * Aryavarta: 124
 * ​Troops 120
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 56.5
 * ​Troops 52.5 (175,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder 0
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavartiya forces win. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 399
 * Bengal Score 193.5
 * Battle Tier 206%

Brahmvarta(Pegu)-Ava/Bengal Front

 * Pre War Stage
 * Aryavarta (Attacking)- 275
 * Population- 240 (55+5)
 * Government- 5
 * Economy- 15
 * Technology- 15
 * Bengal Sultanate (Defending)- 137
 * ​Population- 110
 * Government- 7
 * Economy- 10
 * Technology- 10
 * War Stage
 * Battle of Prome 1581
 * Aryavarta: 34
 * ​Troops 30
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 19
 * ​Troops 15 (50,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavarta wins. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 309
 * Bengal Score 152
 * Battle Tier 203%
 * Battle of Taungoo 1581
 * Aryavarta: 41.5
 * ​Troops 37.5
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 19
 * ​Troops 15 (50,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavarta wins. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 316.5
 * Bengal Score 152
 * Battle Tier 208%
 * Battle of Mrauk U 1582
 * Aryavarta: 41.5
 * ​Troops 37.5
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 19
 * ​Troops 15 (50,000)
 * Location +4
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavarta wins. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 316.5
 * Bengal Score 152
 * Battle Tier 208%
 * 1st year of the Siege of Ava 1582
 * Aryavarta: 43.5
 * ​Troops 37.5
 * Location +6
 * Great General No
 * Blunder  0
 * Attrition 0
 * Bengal Sultanate: 23
 * ​Troops 15 (50,000)
 * Location +8
 * Great General No
 * Blunder
 * Attrition 0
 * Result: Aryavarta wins. Aryavarta loses 5% while Bengal loses 15%.
 * ​Delhi Score 318.5
 * Bengal Score 156
 * Battle Tier 208%

Punjab Front

 * Pre War Stage
 * Abbasid Caliphate and friends - 260
 * ​Population- 220 (40 million Abbasids, 15 million Gurkani) (I dont agree)
 * Government- 5 (theocracy)
 * Economy- 20
 * Technology- 15
 * Aryavarta - 275
 * Population- 240 (55+5)
 * Government- 5 (unsure government?)
 * Economy- 15
 * Technology- 15

Discussion
After calculating Dev's forces in motion, he has 140,000 total troops remaining, which is less than 15% usually recommended. Nonetheless, I gave the benefit of the doubt and permitted Dev to use all 140,000 troops, split evenly to the two battles of Multan and Lahore. The total Abbasid-Gurkani forces, of over 300,000 in total (albeit minus regional debuff) overwhelms those that remain. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  04:25, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

Why is Persia involved the algo? It seems all you were asking were to allow your army to pass through, I see no request for them to join you. I am that guy (talk) 04:34, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

Oh so you see my freind I have 125,000 in Pegu (50,000 Pegu troops) and 400,000 in Bengal. Ah I see you have 300,000 troops but my max army size is 900,000 (1.5% being a non feudal government and a population of 60 million). So that means I have 375,000 troops other than those in Bengal.

So you are having 2 battles in the same year using one army then I think I can have two battles using an army in Bengal. Now if you think your 300,000 troops can march to Delhi. My friend you are severely mistaken. Also Gurkani is not involved in the war so their population wont count also if Gurkani is not your ally your population will suffer a 55% debuff. How you get the extra 120,000 troops from Gurkani remains unclear and if that is the case only 12 million of the Gurkani will be counted.

Now I will have 300,000 troops fighting you. 75,000 already in reserve and I will recall 25,000 from Pegu. I will be modifying the algo.

Dev271 (talk) 09:52, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

You are deploying a total military score of 307.5 across your four battles. Your total score, according to my calculations, can only be 360 at maximum (besides that normally you can only deloy 85% at a time). The remaining score you have left of 52.5 is approximately 140,000 troops. Tactically speaking, if you are attacking multiple different locations at once, they would have to be separate forces. The wars of Feud and I had battles in the same turn, but only because they were multiple confrontations at the same battle location. Also the Gurkani were confirmed to be joining by a mod response, and the Gurkani have been my ally for a long time, so I only get the 20% debuff I already added. I actually sent in a total of 600,000 troops into India, which isn't even half of my forces, not to mention other Muslim nations nearby so I would think you would not want to continue the war. Finally, You already basically lost the war after I gained 500% victory, so you cannot recall troops from Bengal.

Since your algo is so much more different than mine, you can go ahead and make a second version if you want for someone else to compare and decide. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  13:20, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

"We ask Persia to allow the Caliph's armies to pass through against India (MOD RESPONSE)." <- from your turn to the Gurkani, no where do I see a request for them to join your war. I am that guy (talk) 15:12, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

One battle per year. Corrected then. I have 300,000 troops facing you and how can the Caliphate with a population of 30 million send in 600,000 troops. And you asked for military access not military assistance. How can that happen. Again lets say I lost the war. You simply cannot march down and directly attack Lahore and Multan, they are far inland, if this had been the case then I could have attacked Calcutta nd Gaur directly.. So we better delete this algo. Decide on the terms with the mod and then make the algo. And I didint already basically lose the war. There was some discrepancy and I fixed it. And again you cant have a population more than 40 million and you are an absolute feudal monarchy. You cant deploy more than 400,000 and the Caliphate is huge, you cannot send more than 200,000 to fight me.

I am deleting this one. And the troop strengths are recommended. If I am fighting a two front war I can deploy all. Also you cant use Gurkani troops and you cant have a 1.2 million strong army. Read the instructions again.

Dev271 (talk) 15:29, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

=Complaints and Upgrades=

Changes to Current Map
'''This is the section where you add expansion, complaints, or changes for the map in the PMIV Map Game. Please make it easy to understand for the mapmaker the expansion that you committed. This means including the name of your nation, and maybe an OTL location, and sometimes a reference map. Note, color requests will not be granted, as we already follow a color scheme.'''

Requested Changes/Errors for Next Version
Everything should be up to date. Curmudgeonly yours - Crim 18:37, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

Everything is not up to date, the most noticeable thing missing is Korean and Japanese expansion. Just add everything from here:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/a/a7/PMIV_1572.png/revision/latest?cb=20170113203705

카와이카매] ([[User talk:|카와이카매talk) 20:33, January 25, 2017 (UTC)

Guyana has been expanding west at 25px per turn for the past thirty years. Isla de la Juventud should be Burgundys color. Kuala Lumpur (that state taking up the Malay peninsula) is now a Burgundian protectorate. Scandinavias North American colonies are now owned by Burgundy (including the scandy colony on Nova Scotia that's being shown as English). Andaman and Nicobar islands have been settled by Burgundy. I am that guy (talk) 04:59, January 26, 2017 (UTC)

Burgundy's colony in the New England area, Burgundy's colony in South Carolina are both now English and the 3 english colonies in Arcadia are now larger.



Changes Completed/Fixed in Next Version
This section is only for the mapmaker to post which changes were added to the next map, PLEASE DO NOT WRITE YOUR REQUESTS HERE.


 * Australia stuff
 * Pegu
 * IATG's stuff
 * India stuff
 * Scandi colony on Delaware. Puerto Rico already owned.
 * Oman
 * Russian expansion
 * Nova Scotia is Scandinavian
 * Gujarat belongs to Aryavarta now.
 * Maiam. South. Past two maps.
 * Hospitaller owns south Florida, Bermuda, Andros.

Mod Event Complaint
When complaining, please include the year of the event that you are complaining about.

Anangu Kingdom - 1569

 * I'm assuming this has been happening for a while, but I just noticed it in 1569 and the map complaints page. What is this bs with the Anangu Kingdom? A civilization of this size could not, and should not, exist in Australia in the given time period. It especially should not be developing at the rate that the mods are claiming. Cour *talk* 02:53, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, plus the population growth rates are grossly exaggerated. It is unlikely for a state to go from a few dozen thousand to approaching two million within a century, and certainly impossible if it is in the pre-industrial age.
 * I don't want to start an argument as I am not wedded to the Anangu Kingdom, but I will give some explanation. The original tribe I started playing as, the Ngarrindjeri, started in 1440 with a population of 6,000.  The total population of southern Australia, including all tribes (that I estimated), was about 300,000. After the Ngarrindjeri developed agiculture, that knowledge spread across the rest of Southern Australia to all the tribes. Thus, all of Southern Australia's population began to increase exponentially from the food production, eventually devleoping cities and city-states. The Ngarrinjderi themselves, which was only one city-state among many, rose in population from about 6,000 in 1440 to now roughly 200,000 in 1570. The total population of Southern Australia, from all the tribes rose from about 300,000 in 1440 to now 1.8 million in 1570. As for its size, there is a reason I didn't post a map until this point. The South Australian Civilization was only a collection of dis-united city-states until around 1560. Rather than one nation conuqering that  whole area, which would have been impossible, the Anangu Kingdom formed as a result of multiple unions and conquests internally that unified the city-states together, just like any other civilization in history. As a single, organized state, the Anangu Kingdom first appeared in 1560, before conuqering other more tribal areas nearby (and I don't expect it to last very long before fracturing). Also, the fact that the South Australian Civilization is only bronze-age technology helps its unification. If the city-states were very well developed like China or Italy, it would have been much harder for them to conquer or unify with each other. Now, I will admit that I compressed the usual timeline of civlization growth for the sake of creating something interesting for the game, so again I'm not completely wedded to it if anyone else doesn't really like the idea. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  13:17, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.

Colonization and Contact Confirmation
In order for you to colonize or explore another region of the world, you must be confirmed through this process. Message me with any questions or concerns. Add more rows as needed.
 * 1) You must follow all rules laid out in the rules page.
 * 2)  You must show two things to colonize: Capability and Motivation. If you lack one, you can not colonize
 * 3)  Your reasons must be confirmed by 3 mods. Even if you have waited 15 turns for an answer, it does not matter. Pester a mod into giving you a yes or no.
 * 4) Mods can say no. If one of them says no don't try and pretend they ignored it.
 * 5) You can only seek to confirm the nation you play as and nothing more.
 * 6) When seeking confirmation, you want to include the date you would begin colonizing. If you want to do it right away, put the turn of your request.
 * 7) If a mod finds this date to be too early or too late even, they should inform the player as such. Not every nation colonized at once so if you decide to try in jump in right away, even if you have the means and the motive to do so, you may be rejected because of the date.

'''IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY VOTES, IT MEANS YOU CANNOT COLONIZE OR EXPLORE. DO NOT TAKE SILENCE AS APPROVAL.'''

Access for Landlocked polities
Requiring 2/3 approval of mods, which currently means 4 mods.

Augsburg
Mods only
 * Yes
 * No
 * I know you would be able to make tiny ports like OTL Malta or something, but that gets so minor it might as well not even be mentioned Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  00:58, November 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 22:45, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Deadly State of Mind (talk) 14:15, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Abstain

Tier Upgrade
When requesting an upgrade, use the following format:

*Nation (player) **Current tier and tier you would like to be upgraded to **Provide reasoning **Mod response here

Economic Tier Upgrade

 * The Caliphate
 * Tier 4, trying for Tier 5
 * Tier 4 was the tier for the Caliphate back before the Persian War. Since then, The Caliphate has dominated the Silk Road trade by land, via the Compact of Beyrut, and by sea, via the Arab-Indian Company. Not to mention the exclusive trade deals with Bulgaria and the creation of the Bank of Cairo
 * Mod response: Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Norway -- Dream_Helix_Fossil_Sprite.png Praise Helix Welcome my children Tumblr_n1i7boISUv1rvlenbo1_500.gif
 * Tier 3 trying for 4
 * Norway has inherited and now owns sweden a tier 4 economy since we have it is only natural that we now become a tier 4 economy.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:49, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier II
 * Because of substantial trade with East Asia, mining activity, development of settled agriculture due to reforms. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy and more modern technology, plus greater political organization and technology than most tribes, that facilitate economic development.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod

Tech Tier Upgrade

 * Delhi Raj (Dev271 (talk) 10:27, December 31, 2016 (UTC))
 * Unknown (Delhi is not listed). Delhi should be Tier IV.
 * Because of the use of gunpowder, artillery, firearms, communication and postal system from sultanate times, not a feudal nation.
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:47, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier 2
 * Because of substantial contact with East Asian nations which has resulted in adoption of modern technology to some degree, incentivized by mining and immigration to profit from it. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy since before they migrated to Siberia (http://www.geocurrents.info/place/russia-ukraine-and-caucasus/siberia/the-yakut-sakha-migration-to-central-siberia).
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Korea
 * Tier III to Tier IV
 * Korea has independently discovered gunpowder during the late 14th century, and during the same period Korea was one of the first countries to mass-implement the usage of naval artillery. In the 15th century, Korea had the first armoured ship (the "turtleship", though this is the slightly different older model mentioned in the Annals of Joseon), measured meteorology (creating the first Korean rain gauge) for agricultural purposes, and made various astronomical clocks to measure astrology. Not to mention, Korea also uses advanced firearms (such at the matchlock whose blueprints were obtained from Gurkani merchants), and locally-produced gunpowder weapons; all with the access to China, the most advanced national technologically in-game.
 * Mod response – Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)

Discussion
=Information and Resources=

Current Map
1540

The New Algo is now Formated(by me)
So, Um, I took the liberty of formating the new algo for wiki. Made some minor syntax/spelling changes (ex. reare -- rare). If I screwed up too much please tell me, but I think that it would be best to give players access to the new algo proto, right?

Some of the things people wrote...lets just say I cleared some things up, wrote some explanations a bit more eloquently. If I screwed up too much, please let me know, and in the case that I did, well, its a good thing that This is not the official algo format then, eh?-Lx (leave me a message) 23:16, October 21, 2016 (UTC)

There will be one algorithm, for every battle, until disengages or the army is destroyed. This carries on until a treaty is signed or total victory is achieved by the victors. There are two stages to every algorithm—the pre-war stage, and the battle stage. The battle stage may be repeated up to six times per year, depending on how large the war is, in population and nation size. It is extremely important to read this page: War Mechanics, as it has more specifics on how the algorithm will work.

Location
Location is Determined by your location relative to your combatant.

The percentage of your population which can count towards the algo will change in relation to the region you’re located in. At maximum your population will count in full in one connected region from your home region. Sea zones do not count, and will be considered a detrimental region to all unless you maintain a naval concentration. Which negates this. While negating the sea attrition to your population score will be in full as you land on the land region.

For each movement beyond your initially no detriment region allowance. so moving from Say Eastern Europe to Western Europe (which has to go through central europe) 20% of your population will effectively not be counted in the algorithm to symbolize the difficulty of resupply of a major army abroad infrastructural issues etc etc.. If your invading another continent then you suffer an automatic 35% reduction of your population involvement. Unless your an empire which stradles continents (Byzantines, Ottomans, Russia just a few examples)

Extra continental invasions which are forced to cross more than 2 major sea regions or are geographically seperated as conventional history dictates, will suffer from major penalties

The least percentage of population included will remain capped at 5%

Region penalties are cumulative (i.e. add all that apply)
 * List of Region Modifiers for Attackers
 * Same Region: 0%
 * Bordering Region - Land: 0%
 * Bordering Region - Sea: -(20)%
 * Naval concentration: No penalty
 * Next Region over (add as applicable): -(20)%
 * On Same continent: No penalty
 * Other Continent:-35%
 * Multi-continental Empire: +35%
 * Stacking Penalty Limit: -95%

Example:

 * Naples with a naval concentration invades Southern France.
 * Naples starting region: Southern Europe
 * France Starting Region: Western Europe
 * Sea attrition (Med sea) which is canceled out by naval concentration.
 * Southern Europe to Western Europe with a naval concentration leaves out any attrition allowing the full force of the Neapolitan population to count.
 * (note a map will be made which will discuss and work out the specifics of regions. However before this time, mods should be relatively able to answer the questions about which region your nation resides in.

Population
The first thing done is an algo is that the population is found of the entire alliance for both sides—leading nation, allies, and vassals.
 * (Total Population * 0.02)/5000 = Score

Government
If the government of the leading nation is a ...
 * Great Nomadic Horde - +8
 * Celestial Empire (China, Japan) - +8
 * Absolute Monarchy - +7
 * Westminster Monarchy (England) - +6
 * Absolute Feudal Monarchy - +6
 * Elective Monarchy - + 5
 * Feudal Monarchy - +5
 * Iqta' (Islamic Feudalism) - +5
 * Theocracy - +5
 * Oligarchy/Council - +6
 * Warlord/Tribal - +5
 * Free City (Holy Roman Empire) - +5
 * Merchant Republic - +5

(more types will be added as we progress through the game and more modern types of government are invented.)

Economy

 * Tier I - +2
 * Tier II - +3.5
 * Tier III - +5
 * Tier IV - +6.5
 * Tier V - +8

Technology

 * Tier I - +5
 * Tier II - +7
 * Tier III - +10
 * Tier IV - +15
 * Tier V - +20

Tiers will scale with the time period and will be subject to moderator approval as well as my own. Note that tech tiers for coalitions will be counted as a weighted average based on troops sent to war.

Battle Stage
This stage may be repeated up to six times, depending on the size and scale of the war. Note that in this stage, "Attacker" does not mean the nation that declared war first, but means the nation that is in the enemy's territory, attacking enemy cities or troops.

Army/Navy Size
If you are having trouble with army sizes, or your suggested army size is implausible, ask any moderator for the maximum army size you can field. Army size includes all allies and vassals on the same front. Now on top of this in an era with enlarging populations, you can reconstitute your armies with roughly a 60% rebuild. Which means if your entire army is wiped out you can bring reconstitue upwards of 60% of the armies strength.

Finding Maximum Army/Navy Size
.3 per 1000 men

.3 per 10 ships
 * Army
 * Feudal Nations: 0.0075 times population
 * Absolute Feudal Monarchies: .01 times population
 * Absolute Monarchies: .02 times population (cannot be achieved until at least 1620)
 * Nomadic Hordes: 0.01 times population
 * Non-feudal Nations: 0.015 times population
 * Naval-concentrated, non-feudal nations: 0.01 times population
 * Navy
 * Merchant Republic: 0.0018 times merchant republic's population
 * Naval-concentrated nations: 0.0000936 times population
 * Normal Nations: 0.00003 times population

PRO TIP : You can send your entire military strength abroad in a fight but this will incur penalties such as revolts at home of nobility, Peasants, separatists. It is highly encouraged that unless you are fighting within a good marching distance of your home territory (neighboring nations in the region) the threat of revolt will be a decent possibility.. The more forces you deploy, further away, the more unrest at home you will have unless you have established or left a strong policing unit. (roughly 15-25% of your nation’s armed forces would be expected to be retained within the homeland for an extended campaign abroad and will be used as the general rule of thumb. This is generally only deterrent for smaller revolts like peasants and your own nobility rather than separatists and claimants to your throne is applicable.

Mercenaries
If you want to hire mercenaries to fight in wars, you must follow this formula. As all states hired mercenaries during this period well into the enlightenment age You have have a maximum 20% of your total military strength consisting of mercenaries. (Translation: you can multiply your troops by 1.25, but at a cost detailed below)


 * A mod will run an RNG to determine the behaviour of the mercenaries.
 * 1-3 = extremely professional fight on payment and promises of some sort of civilized loot system
 * 4-7 = Semi Professional, will cause some scale of looting damage to your own territory or whatever territory your own. Loot system is relatively disorganized and semi violent. Their unruly behavior over long period of time may anger your allies.
 * 8-10 = Unprofessional mercenaries. You have hired absolute scum, their looting system consists of burning the city, taking everything and murdering and raping the populous. Holding these troops on home soil can see national property damaged, and likewise for your allies lands. Your forces, and Allied forces will tolerate these men for a minimum of 5 years before the mercenaries are forced to leave the army for a different region.

Location of Battle
To find where land battle takes place, find the closest two major cities that is occupied by both sides. If the attacking player doesn't specify a plan, assume that the two armies will meet at a point between the two major cities.

All of the land categories are rather obvious, if a player has done their research then it should be relatively obvious what to classify everything as. A River of almost any type can be used, a Mountain range must be specifically labeled as a mountain range on historic maps, and if ignored mountain passes or river crossings in a different country could prove as a circumvention to your defense. Standard Protocol for most sieges, for most armies, is to outnumber the defending garrison by 3 to 1. As such, battles which assault cities and other strategic locations will follow this example. In the case of major cities and strategic forts, YOU MUST capture the city of fort to continue on into the country from that avenue. If you embark on a military campaign, a well-fortified position must be taken in a siege with the minimum 3:1 ratio to incur no penalty and can only be circumvented by Great Generals and Great Leaders. Conducting a Siege means that the involved manpower will not be available for other combat operations unless you pull them from duty to another front, or break the siege. If you attempt to bypass a well-fortified position a 20% penalty will be added to your final battle section score due to the exposed rear or flank of your army due to the massive strategic disadvantage left by a large enemy garrison based around a well-fortified position and capable of Harassing the attacking army. This is specifically true due to the increased viability of asymetric warfare which would impart casualties, attrition and a loss of morale.
 * Attacking-(Land Battle)
 * Near a major religious site: +5
 * Near the center of government/state: +4.5
 * Near a city: +3.5
 * Near a major river or the coast with naval superiority: +3
 * Near a populated border: +2
 * Near a major river or the coast: +1
 * Near a desolate location far away from anyone: 0
 * Attacking-(Land Battle in Hostile Mountains)
 * Near Capital: -10 (note very few nations capitals are in the mountains.)
 * Near/at City: -8
 * Near Major Fortress: -6
 * Near Religious site: -4
 * Normal attacking: -3
 * Decisive Battle: -3
 * Attacking-(Assault on a City/Fort)
 * Besieging a center of government/very well-fortified city: +8
 * Besieging a Strategic Fortress: +8
 * Besieging a major religious site: +5
 * Besieging a major city: +4
 * Attacking-Sea
 * Near/at Capital : +10
 * Near Major Fortress: +7
 * Near a major religious site: +5
 * Near the center of government: +4.5
 * Near a city: +3.5
 * Far from any coast: 0
 * Defending-(Land Battle)
 * Near a major religious site: +7
 * Near the center of government/state: +6
 * Near major friendly fortress : +5.5
 * Near a city: +4
 * Near a major river or the coast with naval superiority: +3.5
 * Near a populated border: +2
 * Near a major river or the coast: +1
 * Near a desolate location far away from anyone: 0
 * Defending-(Land Battle in Friendly Mountains)
 * Near/At Capital (if applicable): +16
 * Near Major Fortress/Majorly fortified city: +13
 * Near/At City: +10
 * Near Major River: +9
 * Coastal mountains: +9
 * Mountains: +7
 * Defending-(Assault on a City/Fort)
 * Besieged center of government/very well-fortified city: +12
 * Defending major Fortress: +9
 * Besieged a major religious site: +7
 * Besieged a major city: +4
 * Defending-Sea
 * Defending near landing site : +10
 * Near a major religious site: +5
 * Near the center of government: +4.5
 * Near a city: +3.5
 * Near the coast or in a major river: +1
 * Far from any coast: 0
 * Defending-(Battle on a Major River)
 * Near Capital (if applicable) +10
 * Near Major Fortress: +8
 * Defended River crossing: +7 (army must have at least 1 turn to establish necessary fortifications)
 * Contested River Crossing: +5 (army will meet the enemy at the crossing but has no built up defenses)
 * Penalties for Breaking Protocol
 * If you have 3 to 1 odds during a siege you will incur no penalties
 * If you have 2 to 1 odds, you will incur an extra 10% casualties and a 15% detriment to your score
 * If you have 1 to 1 odds or less, you will incur an extra 20% casualties and 25% detriment to your score.

There is also an annual Marching Limit for your forces, meaning that the location of a Battle must be within the marching limit of friendly-controled territory
 * Marching Limit Modifiers
 * Base Value: IDK, like 1500 km?
 * Insert other modifiers here

Great Generals/Leaders
Great Leaders may maintain control/good use over all elements of a nations military this means planning for all fronts

Great Generals are only able to lead within one army/front


 * Great General or Admiral
 * Great Leader - +45 (this would be considered a great king such as genghis etc etc, Event decided extremely rare)
 * General - +25 (Delegated via Event, can reach Great Leader status if they are able to take the throne. Much more common, usually requires distinguished service in a large good war.)
 * Admiral - +20 (Delegated via Event)

Attrition (Attacking)

 * Winter: (determined by RNG by uninvolved mod and if not applicable mod supervised uninvolved player)
 * Heavy Winter: 85% 1-2
 * Moderate Winter: 25% 3-6
 * Light Winter: 10% 7-8
 * Low Impact Winter: .5% 9-10
 * Mountains
 * Contested Mountains: 50% (this means plain and simple doing a mountain crossing, no historically traveled pathways etc etc)
 * Contested Mountain Pass 15%:
 * Contested River crossing: 5%

Blunder
RNG done by Unbiased, Uninvolved Mod

-0 to -5

Strategic Defenses
All nations will gain a maximum amount of 4 Strategic defensive areas (hinging on their population) and are used specifically to guard strategic choke points such as mountain passes, gaps in terrain, or important territories in the nation. For every 3 million people you will gain a strategic defense point/fort which will give a major boost to the defensiveness to a region and can effectively deter an enemy from a major offensive. They take roughly a decade to construct and prepare, and are a significant investment by the country. Their placement is roughly the same as a heavily fortified city, and in order to place these (and determine their coverage or even necessity as you can be denied if you lack the necessity) you must give a legitimate area for this fort, and give a predicted region of coverage. If they do not match up you will be denied. This will be handled by the resident algorithm moderator.

Casualties

 * Battle Tier 1: 15% of the losing force is lost. This requires both nations being within at least 25,000 troops of each other in the battlefield. In a Siege battle 10% of the losing forces will be killed wiped unless on the 2nd algo or a resounding defeat.
 * Victors: will incur 10% casualties in this Tier. In a Siege battle the Attacker will incur 13% casualties
 * Battle Tier 2: 30% of the losing force will be wiped out or captured. In a Siege 25% of the defeated force will be destroyed. (not applicable in a second algo defeat or in this case a siege which equates to the necessary amount to take a strategic fort or city)
 * Victors: Will incur 6% casualties. In a Siege they will incur 15% casualties.
 * Battle Tier 3: 75% of the losing force is wiped out or captured. In a Siege the entire force is wiped out or captured
 * Victors: Will incur 2% casualties. In a Siege 5% of the attacking force suffers casualties
 * Battle Tier 4: Losing force ceases to exist. In a Siege the the Losing force also ceases to exist
 * Victor: Attacking force takes minimal casualties. Siege, Attacking force takes .5% of casualties

Attacker
If an enemy is not within the 25,000 mark on troop comparison then all these values will be halved for the attacker. If the enemy has 50,000 less than you then they are halved once again. (this applies to the attacker.) This applies in every order of magnitude (and will be subject to change when populations have expanded enough to warrant the changing of the numerical amounts)

Defender
If an enemy attacking you is not within the 25,000 mark all values will be halved for the Defender. At another order of 25,000 the values will be halved again. (this is subject to change following the increase in population which will change the numerical values)

Victory or Defeat
To achieve a victory or be subject to a defeat, a few things must happen. You must have seized or won decisive battles or sieges in the territory in question. No longer will 200% clear an enemy from the battle all together.

To win victories the enemy must be defeated in the field or beaten while sieging. Just showing up with an army will not guarantee you victory.


 * Battle Tier 1 - 200-300% - Winner has won a battle with the enemy convincingly but not decisively (normal battles). Enemy can regroup and retreat in good order. In the case of Sieges a second algo is required as 500% will be minimum for sieges of fortified cities and major forts.
 * Battle Tier 2 - 300-500% - Winner has won a decisive battle and the enemy retreats in good order but with a decent amount of casualties.
 * Battle Tier 3 - 500-900% - Winner has won a crushing decisive victory enemy forces have suffered at least 40-50% casualties and are retreating out of the region. If caught in a city when this happens the garrison is entirely wiped out or taken prisoner.
 * Ultimate Tier - 900%+ - Winner has shattered the enemy into a full scale retreat from this region and any adjoining ones. The army will attempt to retreat to the nearest fortified city to regroup 55-60% casualties are expected. In the case of a siege the entire force is wiped out with a significant surrender as well. -5 for the next algo for the loser in this situation due to the morale of such a significant loss. That -5 morale de-buff will last 1 year.

Economic Tiers

 * Tier 1 +3
 * Everyone not listed in the other tiers
 * Tier 2 +5
 * Chimu
 * Hungary
 * Croatia
 * All other Player HRE states
 * Tondo
 * Majapahit
 * Tier 3 +10
 * England
 * Ottomans
 * Bengal
 * Poland
 * Russia
 * Brandenburg
 * Austria
 * Norway
 * Papal States
 * Khmer
 * Swahili
 * Oman
 * Tier 4 +15
 * Caliphate
 * Persia
 * Korea
 * Japan
 * Milan
 * Delhi
 * Sicily
 * Denmark
 * Sweden
 * Portugal
 * Bulgaria
 * Bahmanid
 * Tier 5 (best) +20
 * China
 * Iberia
 * France
 * Burgundy

Tech Tiers

 * Tier 1 +3
 * (this is for tribes and non metalworking societies)
 * Tier 2 +5
 * Chimu
 * Mexica triple alliance
 * All Higher Native Civilizations, baring the Chimu, haven’t worked too much on metallurgy so I’m not sure if they would make the cut.
 * Tier 3 +10
 * France
 * Hungary
 * Russia
 * Bahamanid
 * Denmark
 * Sweden
 * Norway
 * Croatia
 * Ottomans
 * Swahili
 * Tier 4 +15
 * Korea
 * Iberia
 * Austria
 * Poland
 * Milan
 * Two Sicilies
 * Bulgaria
 * Gurkani
 * Greece
 * The Caliphate
 * Portugal
 * Brandenburg
 * Poland
 * England
 * Burgundy
 * Delhi Raj
 * Tier 5 (best) +20
 * China

Discussion
=General Discussion=

Quitting/Resigning as Mapmaker
Due to the fact that the moderator team is at best inconsistant, and the fact that as of late they have started using there mod events to alter the actual internal affairs more than they should have, I resign as China and herby give up my mapmaking duties.

Also due to the fact this was the only part of wiki I was active on, I also feel it is prudent to leave the wiki once and for all.

-Nova 19:21, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Nova: *is barred from colonizing a bunch of useless islands* *quits*

I am that guy (talk) 19:38, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * IATG, please refrain from being rude. Thank you. 23:02, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Now that the mapmaker left, who will make the new maps?

MagnusWiki (talk) 17:34, December 23, 2016 (UTC)

Nova was an active mapmaker, RIP. This is after all a game, which should be decided mostly by the players and not the mods. The mods should be introducing outside pressure, not literally taking over China, like this:

'''Further issues plague Chinas colonial ventures into indonesia specifically corruption in the allocation of funding following the collapse of the first outposts. This leaves all colonies and outposts in Indonesia empty and further movement to the area impossible. This paired along with the inward focus of the high court of China makes further expansion a political impossibility with many hoping to See china become less violent in asia specifically wanting more internal development and settlement over expensive and pointless outward expansion (that means no more colonizing AT ALL china, period end of story. This is non negotiable.)'''

It was handled very poorly in my opinion. General534 (talk) 03:46, December 25, 2016 (UTC)

Point still stands, we need a new mapmaker. It's been 10 turns since we've had a recent map. Cour *talk* 19:44, January 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ambiguity of the Rules
Hello,

Since the War of Austrian Succession, Feud and I have noticed a lot of things have been understood by feud when he made the original algorithm which, by one way or another, didn't make it into the final version on the Rules and Algo page. I have mentioned a few under the Polish War discussion section; however, both he and I have noticed many others since that proves the rules page is not the way Feud originally intended.

One obvious solution would be for Feud to go through and re-write the whole rules page to match his original intention. However, until that is complete (as it could take a long time), I suggest that we stick to the way the rules are laid out on the page now, considering that's the way the rules are currently set up to do. Why do I suggest this? Well, as long as the algo is only fully understood by one person (Feudalplague), then we essentially are playing with blank dice: only one person knows how who wins or loses. It's only a temporary solution, of course, unitl the algo and rules page is sufficently revised.

I have suggested this to the other mods in chat already, and both Scraw and Edge have concurred with my temporary solution Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  04:25, January 24, 2017 (UTC)