Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Archives: to 10/27/16 ● to 12/22/16 =Algorithms=

Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 2]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 3]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 3]

Japanese Conquest of Borneo (1610)
Battle of the Rejang River (1610)

Japan (Attacking) Borneo (Defending)
 * Result – +83
 * Population – +50
 * Location – -20%
 * Government – +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III)
 * Economy – +15 (Tier IV)


 * Result-+21.4
 * Population- +2 (500,000) +4.4 (-95% 1,100,000 from France)
 * Location: +0 (Home nation)
 * Government: +5 (Feudal monarchy?)
 * Technology: +5 (Tier II?)
 * Economy +5 (Tier I)
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +23.5
 * Army – +15 (50,000)
 * Navy – +15 (500 ships) (15 x .1 = 1.5+15)= +16.5
 * Location – -3 (Near major river with naval superiority)
 * GG/GA/GL – N/A
 * Blunder – -5
 * Attrition – 0 (No winter in Borneo)
 * Borneo (defending)
 * Result – +1.7
 * Army – +2.25 (7,500)
 * Navy-+.45 (15)
 * Location – +1 (Near major river)
 * GG/GA/GL - N/A
 * Blunder – -2
 * Casualties:
 * Japan: 50,000 x .02=  1,000.
 * 50,000-1,000 = 49,000
 * Borneo: 7,515 x ,75= 5636.25
 * 7,515-5,625=1,878.25
 * 7,515-5,625=1,878.25


 * Borneo:  19.5 + (1.7 - 23.5 = -21.8) = -2.3 + (|-2.3 + 1|) = +1
 * Japan: +73

830% in-favour of Japan (Battle Tier III)

75% of Borneo's Military is killed, including 100% of their navy (15 ships) 2% of Japan's forces are killed

Discussion
I am confused, I thought it was -20% of the initial population, while Candies says it's -20% off the population score/ I need a mod ruling on this. 카와이카매] ([[User talk:|카와이카매talk) 09:32, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Second Battle Battle of the Rejang River (1610)

Japan (Attacking)



Borneo (Defending)
 * Result – +83
 * Population – +50
 * Location – -20% (Off population, equals +59)
 * Government – +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III)
 * Economy – +15 (Tier IV)





Second Battle of the Rejang River
 * Result-+21.4
 * Population- +2 (500,000) +4.4 (-95% 1,100,000 from France)
 * Location: +0 (Home nation)
 * Government: +5 (Feudal monarchy?)
 * Technology: +5 (Tier II?)
 * Economy +5 (Tier I)



908% in-favour of Japan (Ultimate Tier)
 * Japan (attacking)
 * Result – +11.7
 * Army – +14.7 (49,000)
 * Location – -+1 (Near major river)
 * GG/GA/GL – N/A
 * Blunder – -3
 * Attrition – 0 (No winter in Borneo)
 * Borneo (defending)
 * Result – -.563575
 * Army – +0.563475(1,878.25)
 * Location – +1 (Near major river)
 * GG/GA/GL - N/A
 * Blunder – -2
 * Casualties:
 * Japan: 50,000 x .02=  1,000.
 * 50,000-1,000 = 49,000
 * Borneo: 7,515 x ,75= 5636.25
 * 7,515-5,625=1,878.25
 * Borneo:  21.4 + (-.563575 - 11.7 = -12.26) = -12.36 + 21.4 = 9.13643
 * Japan: +83/9.13643= 9.08451112743

100% of Borneo's Military is killed, 2% of Japan's forces are killed

830% + 908%= 1660%, Borneo is conquered by Japan.

French-Anglo Reconquest of Borneo Battle of the Sarawak Coast (1611)

Japan + Tondo (Defending)

France + England (Attacking)
 * Result – +111
 * Population – +50 (Japan) +28 (Tondo)
 * Location – -20%
 * Government – +8 (Celestial Empire)
 * Technology – +10 (Tier III)
 * Economy – +15 (Tier IV)

Battle of the Sarawack Coast <p style="font-size:14px;">2228.92% in-favour of Japan and Tondo (Ultimate Tier)
 * Result-+55.48
 * Population-  +4.4 (-95% 1,100,000 from France) ) +1.08 (-95% 270,000 from England)
 * Location: -95% (Far Away)
 * Government: +5 (Feudal monarchy?)
 * Technology: +25 (Tier V?)
 * Economy +25 (Tier V)
 * Japan + Tondo (Defending)
 * Result – +54.6
 * Navy – +24(800 ships) 24 x .10 = 2.4+ 24 = +26.4
 * Army   +19.2 (64,000)
 * Location – +10 (Defending Near Landing Site)
 * GG/GA/GL – N/A
 * Blunder –  -1
 * Attrition – 0 (No winter in Borneo)
 * France + England(Attacking)
 * Result – +4.1
 * Navy-+3 (100)
 * Army= +6 (20,000) 6 x .1= +.6 + 6= 6.6
 * Location – (-3.5 Near a city)
 * GG/GA/GL - N/A
 * Blunder –  -2
 * Attrition-0 (No winter in Borneo)
 * Casualties:
 * Japan:
 * France:
 * France::  55.48 + ( +4.1  - 54.6  = -50.5) = 55.48--50.50=+4.98
 * Japan: +111/4.98= 22.2891566265
 * Japan: +111/4.98= 22.2891566265

<p style="font-size:14px;">100% of French-Anglo military are killed, Japan retains Borneo

<p style="font-size:14px;">The French reconquest fails

<p style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;font-size:14px;">830% + 908% + 2228.92%= 3966.92% <h3 style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;font-size:14px;">Discussion We are not invading the Sarawak coast, Let me break this down for you, we are going to go through the, we are going to go through the straits of Singapore and land on the southernside of the island which you have made no attempt to take. We are not attacking you at a landing site or near a city. If you wish to fight our fleet, do it in open water.

<p style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;font-size:14px;"> <h2 style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;font-size:14px;">Unification of Arabia

Pre-War Stage

 * Rashidun Caliphate - 90
 * Population - 50 (Oi that is capped at 50)
 * Government - 5 (Theocracy)
 * Economy - +20
 * Technology - +15
 * Oman Sultanate - 28


 * Population - 8
 * Government - 5 (Sultanate)
 * Economy - +10
 * Technology - +5

Battle Stage
'''Final Result - Oman is forced to be a vassal of the Caliphate. Jabal Shamar and Muscat are occupied.'''
 * Battle of Jabal Shamar (1612)
 * Rashidun Caliphate - 0.12
 * Army - 3.12 (10,400)
 * Location - -3 (normal mountains)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Oman Sultanate - 9.55
 * Army - 2.55 (8,500)
 * Location - 7 (normal mountains)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Battle Tier: 3 - 683%
 * Battle of Al-Mazyuna (1612)
 * Rashidun Caliphate - 5.12
 * Army - 3.12 (10,400)
 * Location - 2 (border)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Oman Sultanate - 8.275
 * Army - 2.55 (8,500)
 * Location - 2 (border)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Battle Tier: 3 - 777%
 * Battle of Ormzud (1612)
 * Rashidun Caliphate - 29.36
 * Navy - 9.36 (312 ships)
 * Location - 0 (at sea)
 * Grear Leader - 20
 * Blunder -
 * Oman Sultanate - 4.7
 * Navy - 4.7 (158 ships)
 * Location - 0 (at sea)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Battle Tier 3 - 846%
 * Siege of Muscat (1612)
 * Rashidun Caliphate - 43.2
 * Army - 6.1 (20,300)
 * Navy - 9.1 (305 ships)
 * Location - 8 (capital)
 * Grear Leader - 20
 * Blunder -
 * Oman Sultanate - 14.4
 * Army - 1.275 (4,200)
 * Navy - 1.2 (39 ships)
 * Location - 12 (capital)
 * Grear Leader - 0
 * Blunder -
 * Battle Tier 3 - 685%

Discussion
Obviously I have been inactive for a while. But didn't Oman win the battle of Jabal Shamar? General534 (talk) 16:13, February 26, 2017 (UTC)

=Complaints and Upgrades=

Changes to Current Map
'''This is the section where you add expansion, complaints, or changes for the map in the PMIV Map Game. Please make it easy to understand for the mapmaker the expansion that you committed. This means including the name of your nation, and maybe an OTL location, and sometimes a reference map. Note, color requests will not be granted, as we already follow a color scheme.'''

Requested Changes/Errors for Next Version
See the map under the Treaty of Mylapore - Nate

Forgot to add a map when the Turkman Sultanate became indepedent -Nate

The Maghrib has been expanding on the coast for a while -Sultan



Guyana has been expanding west at 25px per turn for the past thirty years. Isla de la Juventud should be Burgundys color. Kuala Lumpur (that state taking up the Malay peninsula) is now a Burgundian protectorate. Scandinavias North American colonies are now owned by Burgundy (including the scandy colony on Nova Scotia that's being shown as English). Andaman and Nicobar islands have been settled by Burgundy. I am that guy (talk) 04:59, January 26, 2017 (UTC)

Burgundy's colony in the New England area, Burgundy's colony in South Carolina are both now English and the 3 english colonies in Arcadia are now larger. Person67 (talk) 16:40, January 26, 2017 (UTC)



This map is mostly accurate in regards to Oman, except that the Somali territories have expanded a bit since and joined with each other geographically: General534 (talk) 21:25, January 26, 2017 (UTC)

Kiev's eastern border now reflects the OTL Ukrainian/Russian border. Furthermore, we've been given Crimean lands north of the peninsula.Thanks, 17:24, February 10, 2017 (UTC)

The Scandinavian colonies in North America (including the one on Nova Scotia currently shown as an English colony) are now Burgundian. The expansion of the Cape Charles colony (otl Cape of good hope) has not been added, and the Patagonia colony (centered around otl Comodoro Rivadavia, Argentina) hasn't been added. The Burgundian Protectorate over Malacca also hasn't been added, as well as the independence of Aceh and the Burgundian settlement of the Andaman and Nicobars. I am that guy (talk) 00:33, February 9, 2017 (UTC)

A Majerteen state was formed near OTL Bargaal (see ) in Somalia in 1588 after it rebelled against Omani suzerainty. Swahili claims to have conquered it but made no algorithm at all, so how you choose to display it on the map is up to you. General534 (talk) 08:42, February 9, 2017 (UTC)

Swahili expands. We tried to conquer the Marjerteen but I asked mods for blunder RNG and they still hadn't replied. Fallacyman (talk)

This is it if it conquers, which it probably did as soon as I manage to get blunder.

Majapahit has collapsed, and Banten is independent and has converted to Shia Islam and is closley affiliated with Gurkani. Warrioroffreedom123 20:55, February 12, 2017 (UTC)Warrioroffreedom123

England does not control Nova Scotia, the colony in Quebec has been missed out. Possibly they have been confused but England has a large colony around Quebec and nothing at Nova Scotia. Expansion northwards of the Virginia based colony and southwards expansions of the New England based colony. Sao Tome and the island of St Helena are now British. Person67 (talk) 23:22, February 12, 2017 (UTC)

Rather than trying to explain it verbally I just made this map which is to my best knowledge what Arcadia should look like. A few other people may be able to enlighten me more.





I contest this Swahili expansion map. Bandar Qasim (Bosaso) was never a part of the Majerteen state and the Swahili player presumes that he conquered it. Here is a more accurate version in my eyes:



Also, Majapahit collapsed into Aceh, Sumatra, Banten, Sunda, Java, and Borneo/Brunei. Everything east of Borneo should also be independent, including the Sulawesi states (Gowa, Luwu, Banggai, etc), Ternate, Tidore, and Timor. The Majapahit New Guinea colony could become an independent state or be reclaimed by the natives.

General534 (talk) 12:58, February 16, 2017 (UTC)

Indonesia is messed up, France, Gurkani, and Nate ahe control over a couple islands. ~Oct

Manchuria and Nivkhgu are autonomous dominions of Korea, and under a separate (albeit subordinate) monarch of the same dynasty (albeit a cadet branch). Also the rest of Sakhalin has been annexed. The Kurils and Tsushima have been given to Korea from Japan. The panhandle Mongolia owns has been sold to me. Small colony in Papua New Guinea.



The Andaman and Nicobar Islands ~1604:



Green is the Caliphate, pink is Oman. The green on the mainland is not the same color and represents Burma(Independent Hindu Buddhist).

General534 (talk) 13:59, February 18, 2017 (UTC)

The English colony of Avalon (the one on the St. Lawrence), New Netherlands, Calais, and the English Channel Islands are now owned by Burgundy. Guyana has also been expanding 50px west per turn since the last map. The Cape Charles Colony (otl Cape of good hope), Avelskamp (former Scandinavian colony on otl Newfoundland), and Nova Belgica (former Scandinavian colony on otl Nova Scotia) have all also been expanding 50px per turn. I am that guy (talk) 18:13, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

The Knights Hospitaller have colonised Lee county, Charlotte, Sarasota and Manatee in Florida and Mobile, Baldwin and Escamba county in Alabama. RedDragon2000 (talk) 09:09, February 24, 2017 (UTC)

As per the peace terms with Scandinavia, Holstein, Schleswig, and Oldenburg should be colored Prussias color. I am that guy (talk) 07:42, February 26, 2017 (UTC)

The Scandinavian Empire has explored up into Lappland and made settlements, please color that in Türtlelørđχ 12:58, February 27, 2017 (UTC)

Changes Completed/Fixed in Next Version
This section is only for the mapmaker to post which changes were added to the next map, PLEASE DO NOT WRITE YOUR REQUESTS HERE.


 * Australia stuff
 * Pegu
 * IATG's stuff
 * India stuff
 * Scandi colony on Delaware. Puerto Rico already owned.
 * Oman
 * Russian expansion
 * Nova Scotia is Scandinavian
 * Gujarat belongs to Aryavarta now.
 * Maiam. South. Past two maps.
 * Hospitaller owns south Florida, Bermuda, Andros.

Mod Event Complaint
When complaining, please include the year of the event that you are complaining about.

Anangu Kingdom - 1569

 * I'm assuming this has been happening for a while, but I just noticed it in 1569 and the map complaints page. What is this bs with the Anangu Kingdom? A civilization of this size could not, and should not, exist in Australia in the given time period. It especially should not be developing at the rate that the mods are claiming. Cour *talk* 02:53, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, plus the population growth rates are grossly exaggerated. It is unlikely for a state to go from a few dozen thousand to approaching two million within a century, and certainly impossible if it is in the pre-industrial age.
 * I don't want to start an argument as I am not wedded to the Anangu Kingdom, but I will give some explanation. The original tribe I started playing as, the Ngarrindjeri, started in 1440 with a population of 6,000.  The total population of southern Australia, including all tribes (that I estimated), was about 300,000. After the Ngarrindjeri developed agiculture, that knowledge spread across the rest of Southern Australia to all the tribes. Thus, all of Southern Australia's population began to increase exponentially from the food production, eventually devleoping cities and city-states. The Ngarrinjderi themselves, which was only one city-state among many, rose in population from about 6,000 in 1440 to now roughly 200,000 in 1570. The total population of Southern Australia, from all the tribes rose from about 300,000 in 1440 to now 1.8 million in 1570. As for its size, there is a reason I didn't post a map until this point. The South Australian Civilization was only a collection of dis-united city-states until around 1560. Rather than one nation conuqering that  whole area, which would have been impossible, the Anangu Kingdom formed as a result of multiple unions and conquests internally that unified the city-states together, just like any other civilization in history. As a single, organized state, the Anangu Kingdom first appeared in 1560, before conuqering other more tribal areas nearby (and I don't expect it to last very long before fracturing). Also, the fact that the South Australian Civilization is only bronze-age technology helps its unification. If the city-states were very well developed like China or Italy, it would have been much harder for them to conquer or unify with each other. Now, I will admit that I compressed the usual timeline of civlization growth for the sake of creating something interesting for the game, so again I'm not completely wedded to it if anyone else doesn't really like the idea. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  13:17, January 16, 2017 (UTC)

Bengal events 1604-1605
Bengal doesnt have 300,000 troops. There are 10% Muslims in Aryavarta and that is 10 million so they have an army of 100,000. I had 50,000 troops there already and I should also be give a chance to put up my troop numbers. I swear Scraw had approved me having a 1 mil army. So I retain West Bengal and East Bengal is independent not its vassals. Also since there are 10 mil Muslims they create their own army and Hindus are not loyal to them. There are 100,000 Burmese troops and I will use them in the algo. Secondly I have clearly stated that there are 1300 ships in the Bay of Bengal so no Rashidun troops reach Bengal. You have adjusted my algo to 800,000 troops. Now there are another 200,000 and 100,000 Burmese. So due to me having only 1 million. There is no invasion of South Bahmani. As a result there are even more troops in Bengal.

There is no way there will be more than 10% Muslims in Aryavarta also Bengal has 10 million that is all the Muslims. No Hindus support the rebellion and they definitely do not join their army. Muslims ruled solidly for at least 400 years in India under the Mughals and still they were just 25% in 1947.

I had clearly stated that my navy is in the Bay of Bengal and I swear that Scraw approved me having a 1 mil army. Also I have changed the algo. Nate and Warrior adjusted my algo to 800,000 but I have 200,000 more.

As I am not absolutely non feudal that is why Scraw has allowed me to use the 0.01 of my population.

Dev271 (talk) 07:14, February 19, 2017 (UTC)

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

African Sultanate of Maghrib | Navy | 1605 | 1635 | -

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.

Colonization and Contact Confirmation
In order for you to colonize or explore another region of the world, you must be confirmed through this process. Message me with any questions or concerns. Add more rows as needed.
 * 1) You must follow all rules laid out in the rules page.
 * 2)  You must show two things to colonize: Capability and Motivation. If you lack one, you can not colonize
 * 3)  Your reasons must be confirmed by 3 mods. Even if you have waited 15 turns for an answer, it does not matter. Pester a mod into giving you a yes or no.
 * 4) Mods can say no. If one of them says no don't try and pretend they ignored it.
 * 5) You can only seek to confirm the nation you play as and nothing more.
 * 6) When seeking confirmation, you want to include the date you would begin colonizing. If you want to do it right away, put the turn of your request.
 * 7) If a mod finds this date to be too early or too late even, they should inform the player as such. Not every nation colonized at once so if you decide to try in jump in right away, even if you have the means and the motive to do so, you may be rejected because of the date.

'''IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY VOTES, IT MEANS YOU CANNOT COLONIZE OR EXPLORE. DO NOT TAKE SILENCE AS APPROVAL.'''

Access for Landlocked polities
Requiring 2/3 approval of mods, which currently means 4 mods.

Augsburg
Mods only
 * Yes
 * No
 * I know you would be able to make tiny ports like OTL Malta or something, but that gets so minor it might as well not even be mentioned Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  00:58, November 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 22:45, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Deadly State of Mind (talk) 14:15, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Abstain

Tier Upgrade
When requesting an upgrade, use the following format:

*Nation (player) **Current tier and tier you would like to be upgraded to **Provide reasoning **Mod response here

Economic Tier Upgrade

 * The Caliphate
 * Tier 4, trying for Tier 5
 * Tier 4 was the tier for the Caliphate back before the Persian War. Since then, The Caliphate has dominated the Silk Road trade by land, via the Compact of Beyrut, and by sea, via the Arab-Indian Company. Not to mention the exclusive trade deals with Bulgaria and the creation of the Bank of Cairo
 * Mod response: Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Norway -- Dream_Helix_Fossil_Sprite.png Praise Helix Welcome my children Tumblr_n1i7boISUv1rvlenbo1_500.gif
 * Tier 3 trying for 4
 * Norway has inherited and now owns sweden a tier 4 economy since we have it is only natural that we now become a tier 4 economy.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:49, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier II
 * Because of substantial trade with East Asia, mining activity, development of settled agriculture due to reforms. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy and more modern technology, plus greater political organization and technology than most tribes, that facilitate economic development.
 * Mod Response- Approved. ~Wolvesmod


 * Malaya (Sidewinder)
 * Upgrade from unknown to Tier II
 * Trade hotspot in Straits of Malacca, as well as upgrades in trading ports.


 * Korea
 * Tier 4, trying for Tier 5
 * Korea has increased overseas and also wields preferential trading status with Burgundy; both facilitated by recent emphasis on naval development. Aided by the abundance of minerals and bullion, commerce has been heavily promoted while industrial complexes have consistently been intensively-developed. Due to the abundance of arable land and the resulting high food supply, many peasantry has moved from farming low-income crops such as grains, to cash crops such as tea and cotton.
 * Mod Response:


 * Kingdom of England and Ireland
 * Tier 3 and I would like to be tier 4
 * Well I now control Ireland, I have been doing trade with Asia, Africa and Arcadia. I got money from the loss of Avalon. I built a load of canals, my population grew. I am pursuring merchantile policies. Similiar and no longer existing European nations are listed as Tier IV and Tier V
 * Mod response:
 * Tondo
 * Tier 2 and would like tier 4
 * Trade hotspot between the west and the orient. Tributary status under China provides much wealth for the nation. Tondo is also a major trading partner for multiple European nations. Tondo also has settlements in Borneo, a very resource rich area.

Tech Tier Upgrade

 * Delhi Raj (Dev271 (talk) 10:27, December 31, 2016 (UTC))
 * Unknown (Delhi is not listed). Delhi should be Tier IV.
 * Because of the use of gunpowder, artillery, firearms, communication and postal system from sultanate times, not a feudal nation.
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Sakha - Shikata ga nai! 02:47, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Upgrade from Tier I to Tier 2
 * Because of substantial contact with East Asian nations which has resulted in adoption of modern technology to some degree, incentivized by mining and immigration to profit from it. Also the Yakuts have long had metallurgy since before they migrated to Siberia (http://www.geocurrents.info/place/russia-ukraine-and-caucasus/siberia/the-yakut-sakha-migration-to-central-siberia).
 * Mod Response- Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Korea
 * Tier III to Tier IV
 * Korea has independently discovered gunpowder during the late 14th century, and during the same period Korea was one of the first countries to mass-implement the usage of naval artillery. In the 15th century, Korea had the first armoured ship (the "turtleship", though this is the slightly different older model mentioned in the Annals of Joseon), measured meteorology (creating the first Korean rain gauge) for agricultural purposes, and made various astronomical clocks to measure astrology. Not to mention, Korea also uses advanced firearms (such at the matchlock whose blueprints were obtained from Gurkani merchants), and locally-produced gunpowder weapons; all with the access to China, the most advanced national technologically in-game.
 * Mod response – Approved. Deadly State of Mind (talk) 13:53, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Knights Hospitaller
 * Unknown to Tier III (or Tier II if mod decides)
 * The Knights have been weakened but we still have retained modern technology and have been taking in skilled immigrants building small universities and schools. We have also been building up infrastructure while we are also reorganising our military. We are non-feudal and try to encourag innovation. We are at least a tech level above the natives and higher native civilisations and are probably Tier III. If Tier III is deemed too high please place the tech at least at Tier II.
 * Malaya (Sidewinder)
 * Unknown to Tier II (Or which every Tier the mod decides on)
 * Malaya has implemented Chinese and Aryavarta technologies into its navy, and has state capitals that are quite developed. Firearm technology has been encountered and replicated, from China or Gurkani. Trade from Europe also brings technological progress to some extent.
 * Japan (KawaiiKame)
 * Unknown to Tier IV
 * Japan has implmented Burgundian naval designs, recieved the idea of heliocentrism from Korea in Busan and the Papal States in Nagasaki, and has recieved technological advancements from Burgundy, Korea, Iberia, and the Papal States.


 * Korea
 * Tier 4 to Tier 5
 * Korea is a protectorate of the most technologically-advanced nation (China) and thus have access to their technology. For the past few decades, as part of its modernization attempt, Korean scholars have been sent to China to study and help implement Chinese technology on a similar matter to how Meiji-era Japanese were sent to the West. Korea has developed cordial trading ties with Burgundy and the Papal States; even adopting scientific ideas (such as heliocentrism and modern sciences/mathematics) from the latter. Korea is among the first nations to use naval artillery, and has the first armoured ship. Korea has also developed metallurgy and gunpowder weaponry extensively.
 * Mod response:
 * Tondo
 * Unknown to Tier 3
 * The influx of Chinese and European trade has bode well for Tondos technological achievements. The navy is very advanced for the standards in its region, implementing some european designs.
 * Mod response

Discussion
=Information and Resources=

Current Map
1540

The New Algo is now Formated(by me)
So, Um, I took the liberty of formating the new algo for wiki. Made some minor syntax/spelling changes (ex. reare -- rare). If I screwed up too much please tell me, but I think that it would be best to give players access to the new algo proto, right?

Some of the things people wrote...lets just say I cleared some things up, wrote some explanations a bit more eloquently. If I screwed up too much, please let me know, and in the case that I did, well, its a good thing that This is not the official algo format then, eh?-Lx (leave me a message) 23:16, October 21, 2016 (UTC)

There will be one algorithm, for every battle, until disengages or the army is destroyed. This carries on until a treaty is signed or total victory is achieved by the victors. There are two stages to every algorithm—the pre-war stage, and the battle stage. The battle stage may be repeated up to 3 times per year, depending on how large the war is, in population and nation size. It is extremely important to read this page: War Mechanics, as it has more specifics on how the algorithm will work.

Location
Location is Determined by your location relative to your combatant.

The percentage of your population which can count towards the algo will change in relation to the region you’re located in. At maximum your population will count in full in one connected region from your home region. Sea zones do not count, and will be considered a detrimental region to all unless you maintain a naval concentration. Which negates this. While negating the sea attrition to your population score will be in full as you land on the land region.

For each movement beyond your initially no detriment region allowance. so moving from Say Eastern Europe to Western Europe (which has to go through central europe) 20% of your population will effectively not be counted in the algorithm to symbolize the difficulty of resupply of a major army abroad infrastructural issues etc etc.. If your invading another continent then you suffer an automatic 35% reduction of your population involvement. Unless your an empire which stradles continents (Byzantines, Ottomans, Russia just a few examples)

Extra continental invasions which are forced to cross more than 2 major sea regions or are geographically seperated as conventional history dictates, will suffer from major penalties

The least percentage of population included will remain capped at 5%

Region penalties are cumulative (i.e. add all that apply)
 * List of Region Modifiers for Attackers
 * Same Region: 0%
 * Bordering Region - Land: 0%
 * Bordering Region - Sea: -(20)%
 * Naval concentration: No penalty
 * Next Region over (add as applicable): -(20)%
 * On Same continent: No penalty
 * Other Continent:-35%
 * Multi-continental Empire: +35%
 * Stacking Penalty Limit: -95%

Example:

 * Naples with a naval concentration invades Southern France.
 * Naples starting region: Southern Europe
 * France Starting Region: Western Europe
 * Sea attrition (Med sea) which is canceled out by naval concentration.
 * Southern Europe to Western Europe with a naval concentration leaves out any attrition allowing the full force of the Neapolitan population to count.
 * (note a map will be made which will discuss and work out the specifics of regions. However before this time, mods should be relatively able to answer the questions about which region your nation resides in.

Population
The first thing done is an algo is that the population is found of the entire alliance for both sides—leading nation, allies, and vassals.
 * (Total Population * 0.02)/5000 = Score.
 * Only up to +50 counts Population score cap (until further notice)

Government
If the government of the leading nation is a ...
 * Revolutionary Republic +15 (1750 at the earliest)
 * Federal Republic +13 (1750)
 * Democratic Republic: +13 (1750)
 * Republican Dictatorship: +12 (1750)
 * Totalitarian Dictatorship: +10 (1750)
 * Clarified for those in wonder. 
 * Great Nomadic Horde - +8
 * Celestial Empire (China, Japan) - +8
 * Absolute Monarchy - +7
 * Westminster Monarchy (England) - +6
 * Absolute Feudal Monarchy - +6
 * Elective Monarchy - + 5
 * Feudal Monarchy - +5
 * Iqta' (Islamic Feudalism) - +5
 * Theocracy - +5
 * Oligarchy/Council - +6
 * Warlord/Tribal - +5
 * Free City (Holy Roman Empire) - +5
 * Merchant Republic - +5

(more types will be added as we progress through the game and more modern types of government are invented.)

Economy

 * Tier I - +5
 * Tier II - +7
 * Tier III - +10
 * Tier IV - +15
 * Tier V - +20

Technology

 * Tier I - +5
 * Tier II - +7
 * Tier III - +10
 * Tier IV - +15
 * Tier V - +20

Tiers will scale with the time period and will be subject to moderator approval as well as my own. Note that tech tiers for coalitions will be counted as a weighted average based on troops sent to war.

If an Industrial state multiple your tech and eco score by 50% respectively.

Battle Stage
This stage may be repeated up to 3 times, depending on the size and scale of the war. Note that in this stage, "Attacker" does not mean the nation that declared war first, but means the nation that is in the enemy's territory, attacking enemy cities or troops.

Army/Navy Size
If you are having trouble with army sizes, or your suggested army size is implausible, ask any moderator for the maximum army size you can field. Army size includes all allies and vassals on the same front. Now on top of this in an era with enlarging populations, you can reconstitute your armies with roughly a 60% rebuild. Which means if your entire army is wiped out you can bring reconstitue upwards of 60% of the armies strength.

Finding Maximum Army/Navy Size
.3 per 1000 men

.3 per 10 ships
 * Army
 * Feudal Nations: 0.0075 times population
 * Democracies: .05 (until 1870) 1.5% Post 1870 (Peacetime)
 * Dictatorships: .04 (intil 1870) 2.0 % post 1870 (Peacetime)
 * Absolute Feudal Monarchies: .01 times population
 * Absolute Monarchies: .02 times population (cannot be achieved until at least 1620)
 * Nomadic Hordes: 0.01 times population
 * Non-feudal Nations: 0.015 times population
 * Naval-concentrated, non-feudal nations: 0.01 times population
 * Navy
 * Merchant Republic: 0.0018 times merchant republic's population
 * Naval-concentrated nations: 0.0000936 times population
 * Normal Nations: 0.00003 times population

PRO TIP : You can send your entire military strength abroad in a fight but this will incur penalties such as revolts at home of nobility, Peasants, separatists. It is highly encouraged that unless you are fighting within a good marching distance of your home territory (neighboring nations in the region) the threat of revolt will be a decent possibility.. The more forces you deploy, further away, the more unrest at home you will have unless you have established or left a strong policing unit. (roughly 15-25% of your nation’s armed forces would be expected to be retained within the homeland for an extended campaign abroad and will be used as the general rule of thumb. This is generally only deterrent for smaller revolts like peasants and your own nobility rather than separatists and claimants to your throne is applicable.

Mercenaries
If you want to hire mercenaries to fight in wars, you must follow this formula. As all states hired mercenaries during this period well into the enlightenment age You have have a maximum 20% of your total military strength consisting of mercenaries. (Translation: you can multiply your troops by 1.25, but at a cost detailed below)


 * A mod will run an RNG to determine the behaviour of the mercenaries.
 * 1-3 = extremely professional fight on payment and promises of some sort of civilized loot system
 * 4-7 = Semi Professional, will cause some scale of looting damage to your own territory or whatever territory your own. Loot system is relatively disorganized and semi violent. Their unruly behavior over long period of time may anger your allies.
 * 8-10 = Unprofessional mercenaries. You have hired absolute scum, their looting system consists of burning the city, taking everything and murdering and raping the populous. Holding these troops on home soil can see national property damaged, and likewise for your allies lands. Your forces, and Allied forces will tolerate these men for a minimum of 5 years before the mercenaries are forced to leave the army for a different region.

Location of Battle
To find where land battle takes place, find the closest two major cities that is occupied by both sides. If the attacking player doesn't specify a plan, assume that the two armies will meet at a point between the two major cities.

All of the land categories are rather obvious, if a player has done their research then it should be relatively obvious what to classify everything as. A River of almost any type can be used, a Mountain range must be specifically labeled as a mountain range on historic maps, and if ignored mountain passes or river crossings in a different country could prove as a circumvention to your defense. Standard Protocol for most sieges, for most armies, is to outnumber the defending garrison by 3 to 1. As such, battles which assault cities and other strategic locations will follow this example. In the case of major cities and strategic forts, YOU MUST capture the city of fort to continue on into the country from that avenue. If you embark on a military campaign, a well-fortified position must be taken in a siege with the minimum 3:1 ratio to incur no penalty and can only be circumvented by Great Generals and Great Leaders. Conducting a Siege means that the involved manpower will not be available for other combat operations unless you pull them from duty to another front, or break the siege. If you attempt to bypass a well-fortified position a 20% penalty will be added to your final battle section score due to the exposed rear or flank of your army due to the massive strategic disadvantage left by a large enemy garrison based around a well-fortified position and capable of Harassing the attacking army. This is specifically true due to the increased viability of asymetric warfare which would impart casualties, attrition and a loss of morale.
 * Attacking-(Land Battle)
 * Near a major religious site: -5
 * Near the center of government/state: -4.5
 * Near a city: -3.5
 * Near a major river or the coast with naval superiority: -3
 * Near a populated border: +2
 * Near a major river or the coast: +1
 * Near a desolate location far away from anyone: 0
 * Decisive Battle: 0
 * Attacking-(Land Battle in Hostile Mountains)
 * Near Capital: -10 (note very few nations capitals are in the mountains.)
 * Near/at City: -8
 * Near Major Fortress: -6
 * Near Religious site: -4
 * Normal attacking: -3
 * Decisive Battle: 0
 * Attacking-(Assault on a City/Fort)
 * Besieging a center of government/very well-fortified city: -8
 * Besieging a Strategic Fortress: -6
 * Besieging a major religious site: -5
 * Besieging a major city: -4
 * Far from centralized location: 0
 * Attacking-Sea
 * Near/at Capital : -10
 * Near Major Fortress: -7
 * Near a major religious site: -5
 * Near the center of government: -4.5
 * Near a city: -3.5
 * Far from any coast: 0
 * Defending-(Land Battle)
 * Near a major religious site: +7
 * Near the center of government/state: +6
 * Near major friendly fortress : +5.5
 * Near a city: +4
 * Near a major river or the coast with naval superiority: +3.5
 * Near a populated border: +2
 * Near a major river or the coast: +1
 * Near a desolate location far away from anyone: 0
 * Defending-(Land Battle in Friendly Mountains)
 * Near/At Capital (if applicable): +16
 * Near Major Fortress/Majorly fortified city: +13
 * Near/At City: +10
 * Near Major River: +9
 * Coastal mountains: +9
 * Mountains: +7
 * Defending-(Assault on a City/Fort)
 * Besieged center of government/very well-fortified city: +12
 * Defending major Fortress: +9
 * Besieged a major religious site: +7
 * Besieged a major city: +4
 * Defending-Sea
 * Defending near landing site : +10
 * Near a major religious site: +5
 * Near the center of government: +4.5
 * Near a city: +3.5
 * Near the coast or in a major river: +1
 * Far from any coast: 0
 * Defending-(Battle on a Major River)
 * Near Capital (if applicable) +10
 * Near Major Fortress: +8
 * Defended River crossing: +7 (army must have at least 1 turn to establish necessary fortifications)
 * Contested River Crossing: +5 (army will meet the enemy at the crossing but has no built up defenses)
 * Penalties for Breaking Protocol
 * If you have 3 to 1 odds during a siege you will incur no penalties
 * If you have 2 to 1 odds, you will incur an extra 10% casualties and a 15% detriment to your score
 * If you have 1 to 1 odds or less, you will incur an extra 20% casualties and 25% detriment to your score.

There is also an annual Marching Limit for your forces, meaning that the location of a Battle must be within the marching limit of friendly-controled territory
 * Marching Limit Modifiers
 * Base Value: IDK, like 1500 km?
 * Insert other modifiers here

Great Generals/Leaders
Great Leaders may maintain control/good use over all elements of a nations military this means planning for all fronts

Great Generals are only able to lead within one army/front


 * Great General or Admiral
 * Great Leader - +45 (this would be considered a great king such as genghis etc etc, Event decided extremely rare)
 * General - +25 (Delegated via Event, can reach Great Leader status if they are able to take the throne. Much more common, usually requires distinguished service in a large good war.)
 * Admiral - +20 (Delegated via Event)

Attrition (Attacking)

 * Winter: (determined by RNG by uninvolved mod and if not applicable mod supervised uninvolved player)
 * Heavy Winter: 85% 1-2
 * Moderate Winter: 25% 3-6
 * Light Winter: 10% 7-8
 * Low Impact Winter: .5% 9-10
 * Mountains
 * Contested Mountains: 50% (this means plain and simple doing a mountain crossing, no historically traveled pathways etc etc)
 * Contested Mountain Pass 15%:
 * Contested River crossing: 5%

Blunder
RNG done by Unbiased, Uninvolved Mod

-0 to -5

Strategic Defenses
All nations will gain a maximum amount of 4 Strategic defensive areas (hinging on their population) and are used specifically to guard strategic choke points such as mountain passes, gaps in terrain, or important territories in the nation. For every 3 million people you will gain a strategic defense point/fort which will give a major boost to the defensiveness to a region and can effectively deter an enemy from a major offensive. They take roughly a decade to construct and prepare, and are a significant investment by the country. Their placement is roughly the same as a heavily fortified city, and in order to place these (and determine their coverage or even necessity as you can be denied if you lack the necessity) you must give a legitimate area for this fort, and give a predicted region of coverage. If they do not match up you will be denied. This will be handled by the resident algorithm moderator.

Casualties

 * Batte Tier 0: Both forces take 5% casualties, armies are still engaged and nobody has won a convincing victory yet.
 * Battle Tier 1: 15% of the losing force is lost. This requires both nations being within at least 25,000 troops of each other in the battlefield. In a Siege battle 10% of the losing forces will be killed wiped unless on the 2nd algo or a resounding defeat.
 * Victors: will incur 10% casualties in this Tier. In a Siege battle the Attacker will incur 13% casualties
 * Battle Tier 2: 30% of the losing force will be wiped out or captured. In a Siege 25% of the defeated force will be destroyed. (not applicable in a second algo defeat or in this case a siege which equates to the necessary amount to take a strategic fort or city)
 * Victors: Will incur 6% casualties. In a Siege they will incur 15% casualties.
 * Battle Tier 3: 75% of the losing force is wiped out or captured. In a Siege the entire force is wiped out or captured
 * Victors: Will incur 2% casualties. In a Siege 5% of the attacking force suffers casualties
 * Battle Tier 4: Losing force ceases to exist. In a Siege the the Losing force also ceases to exist
 * Victor: Attacking force takes minimal casualties. Siege, Attacking force takes .5% of casualties

Attacker
If an enemy is not within the 25,000 mark on troop comparison then all these values will be halved for the attacker. If the enemy has 50,000 less than you then they are halved once again. (this applies to the attacker.) This applies in every order of magnitude (and will be subject to change when populations have expanded enough to warrant the changing of the numerical amounts)

Defender
If an enemy attacking you is not within the 25,000 mark all values will be halved for the Defender. At another order of 25,000 the values will be halved again. (this is subject to change following the increase in population which will change the numerical values)

Victory or Defeat
To achieve a victory or be subject to a defeat, a few things must happen. You must have seized or won decisive battles or sieges in the territory in question. No longer will 200% clear an enemy from the battle all together.

To win victories the enemy must be defeated in the field or beaten while sieging. Just showing up with an army will not guarantee you victory.


 * Battle Tier 1 - 200-300% - Winner has won a battle with the enemy convincingly but not decisively (normal battles). Enemy can regroup and retreat in good order. In the case of Sieges a second algo is required as 500% will be minimum for sieges of fortified cities and major forts.
 * Battle Tier 2 - 300-500% - Winner has won a decisive battle and the enemy retreats in good order but with a decent amount of casualties.
 * Battle Tier 3 - 500-900% - Winner has won a crushing decisive victory enemy forces have suffered at least 40-50% casualties and are retreating out of the region. If caught in a city when this happens the garrison is entirely wiped out or taken prisoner.
 * Ultimate Tier - 900%+ - Winner has shattered the enemy into a full scale retreat from this region and any adjoining ones. The army will attempt to retreat to the nearest fortified city to regroup 55-60% casualties are expected. In the case of a siege the entire force is wiped out with a significant surrender as well. -5 for the next algo for the loser in this situation due to the morale of such a significant loss. That -5 morale de-buff will last 1 year.

Economic Tiers

 * Tier 1 +3
 * Everyone not listed in the other tiers
 * Tier 2 +5
 * Chimu
 * Croatia
 * All other Player HRE states
 * Tondo
 * Majapahit
 * Tier 3 +10
 * Ottomans
 * Hungary
 * Bengal
 * Poland
 * Russia
 * Brandenburg
 * Austria
 * Norway
 * Papal States
 * Khmer
 * Swahili
 * Oman
 * Tier 4 +15
 * Persia
 * Korea
 * Japan
 * Milan
 * Delhi
 * Sicily
 * Denmark
 * Sweden
 * Portugal
 * Bahmanid
 * England
 * Tier 5 (best) +25
 * China
 * Iberia
 * France
 * Burgundy
 * Bulgaria
 * Caliphate

Tech Tiers

 * Tier 1 +3
 * (this is for tribes and non metalworking societies)
 * Tier 2 +5
 * Chimu
 * Mexica triple alliance
 * All Higher Native Civilizations, baring the Chimu, haven’t worked too much on metallurgy so I’m not sure if they would make the cut.
 * Tier 3 +10
 * Hungary
 * Bahamanid
 * Denmark
 * Sweden
 * Norway
 * Croatia
 * Ottomans
 * Swahili
 * Tier 4 +15
 * Korea
 * Austria
 * Poland
 * Milan
 * Two Sicilies
 * Gurkani
 * The Caliphate
 * Portugal
 * Poland
 * England
 * Delhi Raj
 * Russia
 * Venice
 * Tier 5 (best) +25
 * China
 * Burgundy
 * France
 * Iberia
 * Bulgaria
 * England
 * Prussia

Discussion
=General Discussion=

Leaves of Absence
I will not be online because of internet problems as I am attending a wedding. I will be back online by 4 February. --Dev271 (talk) 16:55, January 28, 2017 (UTC)

Quitting/Resigning as Mapmaker
Due to the fact that the moderator team is at best inconsistant, and the fact that as of late they have started using there mod events to alter the actual internal affairs more than they should have, I resign as China and herby give up my mapmaking duties.

Also due to the fact this was the only part of wiki I was active on, I also feel it is prudent to leave the wiki once and for all.

-Nova 19:21, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Nova: *is barred from colonizing a bunch of useless islands* *quits*

I am that guy (talk) 19:38, December 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * IATG, please refrain from being rude. Thank you. 23:02, December 22, 2016 (UTC)

Now that the mapmaker left, who will make the new maps?

MagnusWiki (talk) 17:34, December 23, 2016 (UTC)

It was handled very poorly in my opinion. General534 (talk) 03:46, December 25, 2016 (UTC)

Point still stands, we need a new mapmaker. It's been 10 turns since we've had a recent map. Cour *talk* 19:44, January 4, 2017 (UTC)

Ambiguity of the Rules
Hello,

Since the War of Austrian Succession, Feud and I have noticed a lot of things have been understood by feud when he made the original algorithm which, by one way or another, didn't make it into the final version on the Rules and Algo page. I have mentioned a few under the Polish War discussion section; however, both he and I have noticed many others since that proves the rules page is not the way Feud originally intended.

One obvious solution would be for Feud to go through and re-write the whole rules page to match his original intention. However, until that is complete (as it could take a long time), I suggest that we stick to the way the rules are laid out on the page now, considering that's the way the rules are currently set up to do. Why do I suggest this? Well, as long as the algo is only fully understood by one person (Feudalplague), then we essentially are playing with blank dice: only one person knows how who wins or loses. It's only a temporary solution, of course, unitl the algo and rules page is sufficently revised.

I have suggested this to the other mods in chat already, and both Scraw and Edge have concurred with my temporary solution Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  04:25, January 24, 2017 (UTC)

​Hospitaller ninja assassin inquisitors
Due to the rise of the nobility in our colonies, it seems sensible to set up an organisation to deal with corruption. I am planning on an organisation which is like an anti corruption independent commission, but with a license to kill. They shall consist of a fanatical group of elite warriors. Eventually I am planning on this becoming a spy or warrior society. Which parts seem sensible? RedDragon2000 (talk) 08:56, February 10, 2017 (UTC)

Establishing a local Inquisition under the authority of your local clergy or highest-ranked Knight is sensible. Callumthered (talk) 22:43, February 12, 2017 (UTC)