Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flip back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

French colony of Baie de Notre dame is on continental Western canada, and Wales sold the Colonial territory originally of Granada to france when they received hobyo. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 18:39, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

I merged the Gabon colony with Saxon West Africa a decade or two ago, could the border between them please be erased? Thanks, Callumthered (talk) 21:01, July 31, 2013 (UTC

I bought part of Carthage from France, it is a coastal area.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 23:25, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, What andrew said, then my colony on Baie de notre dame, which has expanded, then my Vassals of Zululand, and Muiscas have been expanding by 10.000 sq km since 1740. could some one add this. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:30, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Labelled Map
































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<p style="font-size:13px;">New labelled maps :P Scandinator (talk) 16:43, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">I think it may be time to update the maps as a lot of territory changes have occurred in the last 50ish years.Andr3w777 (talk) 01:00, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

I have updated the Europe labelled map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:09, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Religion Map


<p style="font-size:13px;"> Colors:

<p style="font-size:13px;">Catholic - Light Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Reformed Churches - Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Kappelists - Dark Blue

<p style="font-size:13px;">Eastern Orthodox - Mustard

<p style="font-size:13px;">Islam - Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Nestorianism - Light Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Hinduism - Teal

<p style="font-size:13px;">Buddhism - Pale Green

<p style="font-size:13px;">Animism/Indigenous - Yellow <p style="font-size:13px;">I made this map, using the latest 1730 map, and the old Religion Map as a guide. I do not claim this to be official, but please add/edit/update it as you feel needed to do so. If the mods don't like this, please take it down, but I only want to help. Reximus55 (talk) 10:35, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Since Callumthered had asked me what was the situation of Catholicism on Europe, i went to do a coloured map of this.it got big, so now this became a incomplete world map.dark blue represents Kappelists, blue represents breakaway churches, light blue represents Catholicism, light green represents Nestorianism, green represents Islam, and yellow-brownish represents orthodoxy.it is still incomplete.Obviously, this is political too, as some nations will have some state religion, but the population will follow other one.Anyway, i don't know the Arabian Federation's state religion, to start with.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:48, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The Arabian federation doesn't have a state religion, its dominantly Islamic though. Many branches of Islam though, but I'd say Sunni or Ibadi Islam to be dominant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg  (talk to Von!) 11:51, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">There would be a lot more ortododox wrong...-Lx (leave me a message) 19:30, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">What do you mean?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:36, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Well, Russia is very wrong on that map. just look at the russia I made, and then you will see the real face of orthodoxy. you did your annexations horibly wrong. you made moscow a seperate state, and now Minsk is not longer in personal union. You should realy use my map, because at this point I think you just want an excuse to piss me off so you can purposefuly get me banned.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:07, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">The latter is not the case.in fact, i sometimes think that Scraw is being implausible just to have something to complain about, so he can get me to quit.We might be able to work this out, when it comes to Minsk.are you a hereditary monarchy?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Russia has an old novgorodian style Elective Monarchy. The Tsar was a firm believer in Russian unification, and once he gianed the title of Tsar of Minsk through marriage, since he wanted at the least unified russian realm under one Ruler, and he did not want his efforts to be in vain when he died in case his son did not become the next Tsar(elective monarchy) so he had the two Crowns linked, although he kept the title of duke of minsk to his own family, the title of Tsar of Minsk and Tsar of Novgorod and Russia were linked. I find it is good logic, but If that's too complicated you can consider it like an act of union/annexatoin and ignore the part about a seperate Duma being built in Minsk.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:32, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Yes, this sounds like a good logic.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:27, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Just saying, but shouldn't Bijaur be hindu? Considering I have expanded my influence there and introduced anti-muslim laws and the Trimurts have been converting people like crazy? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 07:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

<p style="font-size:13px;">Update time? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:38, March 24, 2013 (UTC) </li>

Industrial Algorithm Modifiers and Industrial Era areas and rates.
I have a proposal to modify the algorithm to put into perspective the colonial wars of the 18th-20th century. An algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. Nations with two stages use the higher when defending and the lower when attacking. Scandinator (talk) 04:59, April 28, 2013 (UTC)



Stage 1

 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds

Stage 2​

 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale

Stage 3

 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Railways appear
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear

Stage 4​

 * Civilian railways appear allowing easier access
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period

Stage 5

 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent

Stage 6​

 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations

Stage 7

 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
I'm extremely confused. Also, I think the industrialization chart should be corrected, as Scandinavia has been vanquished.

16:08, April 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see no need to remove them, as they have already been removed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I like this one better than it's predecessor, mainly beccause there are more divisions here, allowing for a more accurate representation of the country's standing. Albeit, there are a few things that could be amended. CourageousLife (talk) 16:22, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Much better. And what is confusing Scraw? It is pretty simple to understand once the map is up showing industrialisation levels. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:27, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's for the map.


 * 17:16, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

It needs some corrections, as some characteristics are too late or too early for their times.Such as: We should move the appearing of railways to stage 4, and their spread to 5, to start with, After all, when we talk about railways, this implies steam locomotives, necessarily.And, steam locomotives in 1770?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:04, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't too far-fetched. A viable steam engine existed in 1782, it just took a while(about 20 years) before people to realise it could be used for rail transport. A two-cylinder steam engine was invented by a Russian in 1766...it had great potential, and could have perhaps accelerated the development of the steam locomotive by a phew decades(maybe only 10 years to say: put it on a fracking train) but The Empress ditched the designs in favor of a more "Brittish" system(i.e. hydraulicaly cooled that required close water supply...this lagged locomotive construction). So...RUssians could have built locomotives in the 1770s...but the empress wanted to stay close to brittain, and brittish-style tech, so that slowed many things...and because of that, the twocylinder stam engine was scrapped.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, unlike the last game, the East is on better footing with the West, and thus will breed even more competition. I think this is completely fine if you ask me. Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

I've done the research in the industrial era. For whomever industrializes first, these technologies do not suddenly appear. It is gradual in within each stage. Scandinator (talk) 11:42, April 29, 2013 (UTC)

I would think that, like in PMII, crimson would be a fraction of the main natino around the nation's "heartland/capital" area, and the rest of the nation would get industry red. And colonies would industry get a colour under their founding nations, etc... However, I am worried about the ammount of colours...in any case, I do believe that orange and yellow(or at the least orange) should get planes at the same time as red and crimson...technology and trade would change to the point that...well...those nations could do thema t the same time...-Lx (leave me a message) 18:43, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

I feel like one of these (red, yellow, orange) should be removed. Also, shouldn't Europe (closer to Italy) be receiving industrialization faster than the Middle East?

21:21, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Not that the map is bad, but I would say that the coast and Dehli should be joined up as they are prime industrial locations. Doesn't really change anything, but it looks nicer, lol. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:33, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The Arabian Federation should really industrialize earlier than its vassal of Baghdad I think. Albeit just industrializing along the coastal regions like Oman and Qatar where the majority of my urban population lives. The Nejd won't see industrialization for many years later. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:15, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

China would industrialize quicker than the yellow rate due to their extensive trading, especially with Orissa and Italia. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I too feel that China should be in orange.

I also find it strange that both Georgia and Austria are in orange while Germany itself is in yellow. Not to mention that Germany was higher than Russia on the chart and closer to Italy than Russia.

21:25, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Aren't any of these going to be addressed?

17:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'd so something about it since I'm a mod, but I'm not sure if I have clearance for this map. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 18:20, May 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I'll edit it since, not only does it seem like the plausible thing to do, but worst-case scenario, they'll revert it and yell at me a little. CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 16:53, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think there should be less of orange China, as lots of those areas would be presently unsuitable for industrialization.

22:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's just a buffer between red and yellow.

CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 05:44, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I like how Germany is on the same level with the Dimurat and Siberia.

23:06, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

As per my post on the page I'd like to propose that the point on Steel and Glass is changed to "Steel and Glass become mass producible". Also I now have both light green and yellow industrial stuffs in my nation so how does this affect my industrialisation? Kunarian TALK 06:54, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Based on precedence, I'd say no, as I've conquered both orange and red territories. I'm in orange, so realistically speaking, I only got red land but no red rights. So I'm pretty sure the answer is that you will not advance.

21:06, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Nation pages & PM2 awards?
Hey I was cleaning up the PM2 category just now and noticed a lot of the pages (especially for nations) are lacking content. Some pages have lots of content and are fantastic. I'd like to see all of the pages to the same standard and hence I'm thinking we do a PM2 awards to motive people into doing it.

'''Regardless of these awards, all players should update their nation pages so that nation history is easier for other people to learn about. It also helps in building the PM2 world too.'''

But these PM2 awards are just a for fun idea I had, we think up some categories for the awards (e.g. best nation page, greatest war, funniest post, largest nation, etc.) and then we all vote for which player, nation, etc. deserves the award. This game does have many months of content and I think we should highlight this more, and give credit where credit is due.

I was thinking maybe double colonial expansion rates for a year or a small algorithm bonus could be the prizes, which would be given out via mod event once the awards are given out.

What'd you guys think to the awards? Also please do update your nation pages!

--<font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:07, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'll be doing a full re-write and re-structure of the Venice page in my holidays. I think the algorithm bonus would be good. Maybe out of 5 for a nation's organization, with NPCs assigned the first decimal digit of the chance score divided by 2 as theirs. Scandinator (talk) 12:28, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking just like +3 economic development or something like that, nothing major. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:12, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I've fully updated my page and have been fairly detailed.Andr3w777 (talk) 02:43, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

I support double colonial expansion.

03:12, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

If we do double colonial expansion it will only be for a short while. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:09, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Alleged PMII ASB - ness
i have seen for a few times already Collie's post about Daxus labelling PMII as asb, taking this idea, what do you find ASB In the game, or that you find odd, that you think would never in any way have happened in OTL after the POD in 1450, i would like to know what you say guys. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well Tyrol, a majorly German state, being a French vassal, especially when in OTL they had a much stronger relationship to Bavaria and Austria. I'm still somewhat bitter I couldn't get Tyrol:(Andr3w777 (talk) 02:51, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

What I find a bit ASB was the Koori Union, allowing a massive colony in Australia. Also implausible was the Caliphate, and the exile states in Antillia/Atlantia.

03:10, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

i agree with the koori union, and the caliphate and must to point out the fall of spain, and the ottomans, i mean, both were the strongest nations of europe and the islamic world at their times and the english and french balkanization and later welsh supremacy on britain. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 06:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">There's also a line between that which is implausible and that which is impossble. There are a lot of OTL events that sound crazy in hindsight but every now and then you get black swan events. That and I have some sympathy for the Koori - if you make it possible to play tribes, chuckleheads like me will give it a shot, and we kinda have to write our own rules in terms of how to develop ourselves quickly without getting bounced. I know I crafted the Selk'nam strategy only AFTER reading all of the Koori, Apache, and Lakota history - and I still worry about getting dinged on the realism. Part of the problem is I think we don't have a lot of REAL history regarding tribes attempting to aggressively Eurpoeanize before the colonists reach them (which is the key "what if" of our entire game). By the way - I'm happy to accept any input on the conduct of the Selk'nam, as I am well aware of the fact that they have a lot of ASB potential...of course I'm still going to play hard and excecute my plans, but I'm always open to input seeing as past tribal players have been controversial. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Look. We found a cross-roads in time. Many had travelled down the most used path, yet some 25 of us were brave enough... to venture on the path less travelled on. The fun is in the journey, and the end is a bonus. So enjoy my fellow companions, for time is not done with us. Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:34, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">If you are really strict with it, almost every map game is implausible. So don't worry about it, but some of the more implausible events include: the collaspe of England & the rise of Wales as the dominant nation in the British isles, the Mayan empire still existing, everything to do with the Koori, the Ethiopian colonial empire, the Indian colonial empire, the Cypriot colonial empire, the Caliphate (especially invading Russia), Italy's unification, the Balkans being a series of Italian vassals and other small states having colonial empires (japan, saxony, etc.) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:26, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="color: rgb(58, 58, 58); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 21px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Those are basically due to the lack of idiot emperors. When there are less idiots, there are more empires. History showed us that with Rome, the Mongols - even Oman. Plus, if this universe looked at ours, then they would say the stopping of Hitler was implausible, and a small chain of islands becoming the largest colonial power in history lunacy. Its just you viewpoint - and events which youthink will never happen, happen. Koori and Wales are the only two I would say are the worst ones. The Capilate could have happened if there were less idiots in OTL. Here they were - therefore it happened. India has had some good emperors if you know what i mean, lol), and has backed Ethiopia expanding. Ethiopia is like Russia - a developed country gets the chance to expand into the uncivilised lands around it. So critics like Dax should notice these points before commenting. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:46, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think Dax, like many others, just criticize because other map games that have come, and done events like PMII have been called ASB, even though the reason of how things came to be are like the ones here, so he is following the ASB standards of this wiki. and Like Von, i find odd cyprus, The maya empire and Englands collapse, though i find italy and germany's unification just a event caused by the Caliphate threat. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:20, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Allies
Well, I just want to establish a comprehensive list of who's allied with who. I think this would serve all the players well when it comes to player vs player wars. I'll start off by listing my allies.

23:24, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Germanic Reich (Brandenburg)

 * German Union (Bavaria, Saxony)
 * Russia
 * Welsh Empire
 * China
 * Cyprus
 * Arabia
 * Mayans
 * China

Cyprus

 * Brandeburg
 * Venice
 * Levantine Kingdom
 * Mayan Kingdom
 * Bavaria
 * maybe some others? I don't remember :P

Wales

 * Greater Germanic Union
 * Brandenburg
 * Saxony
 * Bavaria
 * Italy
 * Portugal
 * Spain
 * Maya
 * Selk'nam

Mononobe Shogunate

 * Italy
 * Myanmar
 * Orissa

Great Haruwin of th Selk'nam

 * Mononobe Shogunate
 * Wales
 * Magedeburg (which is now German Union, right?)
 * Friendly contact with Orissa, Netherlands, Portugal via their Atlantian colonies. We've also had indirect interaction with the Pope.

The Empire of Bavaria(German Union)
States that have pending Alliance requests from in game
 * German Union members(Saxony, Rhineland)
 * Brandenburg
 * Italia
 * France(trade deal)
 * Russian Federation
 * Arabian Federation
 * Cyprus
 * Levantine Kingdom
 * Maya Empire
 * Wales
 * China

United Maharajya

 * Ethiopian Empire
 * Italia
 * China
 * France
 * Japan

The Mayan Empire

 * Brandenburg
 * Cyprus
 * Wales
 * Bavaria
 * France
 * Anyone else I forgot...

Russian Realm

 * Italia
 * China
 * Germanic Reich
 * Bavaria

Kingdom of Italia

 * Bavaria
 * Saxony
 * Orissa
 * Nippon
 * China
 * Russia
 * Arabian Federation
 * Ethiopia

United Monarchy of Saxony, Hesse, and Magdeburg (German Union)

 * German Union (Bavaria, Brandenburg, Prussia, Switzerland, Anhalt)
 * Italia
 * Wales

Posting for Wales/Rex?
Hey all  - Rex asked me to post for Wales while he's away. Happy to do so but I'm not a mod so I wanted to double check that I didn't need special dispensation for that.Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:09, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Protectorate rules
Seeing how some nations are getting protectorates I think we should make the rules about them clear. As far as I'm concerned they aren't as good as vassals so they should be treated as NPCs in the algorithm, but the protecting nation should always help out their protectorate in any wars they are in and if you don't then the protectorate treaties will end as you failed to protect them.

Extending there treatment as NPCs you can't post turns for them either, and they can only give +1 to algorithm strength scores as (P) and they must be close to where the war is happening otherwise they don't get involved (e.g. Normandy's Mogadishu protectorate can't send aid to Normandy's wars in Europe).Protectorates get a -3 algorithm penalty in all wars due to their reliance on their protector.

They are shown in the colour of the protecting nation on the map so players know if other PNs are protecting them, and also you can only have a maximum of 5 protectorates. If you have 3 or more protectorates you also get a war algorithm penalty of -2 for having protectorates as your military will be stretched trying to protect these far off nations. It'll take a 4 year minimum to establish a protectorate too. You can also then peacefully turn your protectorate into a vassal or puppet after 15 years of that nation being your protectorate. You can do it sooner than 15 years if you like but an algorithm will be needed.

Thoughts on these new rules? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:24, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think that this is good enough.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:51, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay and also they should expand like NPCs since players can't post for them and because the protectorate is weak relying on another nation for protection.

I'll add this stuff to the rules page in a few days to give other people a chance to comment on these new rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:30, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Prussia
Okay I'm back but unlike last time (and the time before) I actually have time now to do things. So I was wondering if I could take over Prussia, the user is inactive and it's grey on the map, I'd enjoy creating a rich history as the nation (maybe being a go between for Russia and Germany or something just as interesting) and I'd love to have something to do over the holidays that appeals to my more mechanical rules based side than creative writing I'm doing on other wikias. Kunarian TALK 20:05, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

I was going to invade it as soon as I was done with Napoleon...so, er...you choice. Also Germany and Russia are long standing allies and share the same monarch for now.

20:17, July 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting... Well I hope to survive that brief encounter! Kunarian TALK 20:20, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Congress of Avalon


Much like the OTL Congress of Vienna, I would like to propose to all leaders of all nations effected by Strellok to attend the Congress of Avalon. There are a few great perks of attendance:
 * See beautiful Avalon!
 * Decide the fate of Europe!
 * Create a new Map!
 * Prevent future Strellokian Generals!
 * Celebrate the end of the Strellokian Wars!
 * Work to prevent the rise of an Eastern Empire!

My propsosed agenda involves: New Map, New Alliances, and New Goals.

Invitees
and signing in for the conference.
 * Brandenburg -
 * Bavaria - Andr3w777 (talk) 05:04, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Saxony - Callumthered (talk) 11:30, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Prussia -  Kunarian TALK 06:37, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Netherlands - Quashi (talk) 02:02, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Switzerland - This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 01:18, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * France -  Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:00, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wales - Prince Evan II Pugh, Heir to the Kingdom of Wales and the Welsh, Albanic, and Brythonic Empires. Reximus55 (talk)
 * Italy - (sit in for Scan cause he's on holiday) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:45, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Russia - -Lx (leave me a message)
 * Rhinish Confederation -
 * Berg - NPC
 * Limburg - NPC
 * Bar/Metz - NPC
 * Munster - NPC
 * Stassburg - NPC
 * Sundgau - NPC
 * Cologne - NPC
 * Westpahlia - NPC
 * Mainz - NPC
 * Palatinate - NPC
 * Lorraine (France) - Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:00, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Luxembourg (Brandenburg) -
 * Cleves (Netherlands) - Quashi (talk) 02:02, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Papal Provence - (France) (Its been french for about 20 years now) Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:00, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

New Map
My new Map consists of the following changes:
 * Unification of Welsh Lands
 * Unification of French Lands
 * Unification of Dutch Lands
 * Unification of Brandenburger Lands
 * Unification of Saxon Lands
 * Unification of Bavarian Lands
 * To the Netherlands - Cleves
 * To Switzerland - Sundgau and Strassburg
 * To Wales - Bar/Metz, Mainz
 * To Saxony - Westphalia, Berg
 * To Brandenburg - Munster, Cologne
 * To France - Papal Provence
 * To Italy - Papal Provence

The Rhinish Confederation
The Rhinish Confederation is to be broken up. The idea was a great one, masterminded by Saxony, and they have as such received a large portion of the former Confederation. It is evident from our experiences, however, that the Confederation, when unified, can pose a threat to all of north-central continental Europe. If we allow the Confederation to continue in existence, we risk allowing another threat, another Strellok, to rise up.

Furthermore, the Confederation increases problems caused by vassals, and causes a notable tension between the King-Duke of Saxony and whichever nation moves to vassalize the region in the Confederation. (ie, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Cleves.) This undermining of regional authorities causes the instability in which a Strellok-type general can emerge.

Each nation of the Alliance will, therefore, gain lands in the former Confederation. The idea is to give lands geographically near to the original holdings of each nation.

The Luxembourgish Question - Part 2
Luxembourg is a valuable asset to any nation, It posses a notable land area. It has a sea border with the Brythonic Channel. It has a mixed French and German population, with decent Alban influence near the sea ports.

During the Wars, the primary liberating forces fo Luxembourg were Wales and Brandenburg. The combined navies of these two nations liberated its coasts, and then 100,000 Welsh troops moved to liberate the countryside, from 1757 to the Wars' end. Furthermore, ethnic-French peasants rose up against the Rhinish armies in support of the Welsh invading forces and French forces south of the Luxembourgish border.

Therefore, a 3-way division of the lands would be most beneficial. The Brandenburgers will retain the primarily German Luxembourgish portions of the nation. This will be connected to their mainland, through Cologne. The central farmland, French region shall be ceded to the French. And the coast, already under a Welsh governor, shall remain Welsh following the Wars, since this region was liberated by the Welsh.

Venaissin
Considering the recent decline in the influence of the Papacy, the region controlled by the Pontifical Majesty shall be reduced by a considerable amount.

This is for His own good, especially with semi-hostile Italian interests really closeby. The only terms of this agreement is that the Pope doesn't become a Vassal, Protectorate, or Puppet-State of any nation in Europe, and that, if attacked by a hostile power, all nations will retaliate and defend the Holy City of Avignon.

Discussion
Germany wholeheartedly opposes to the Welsh control of Central Germany (Bar, etc) and also the lack of a hardwon coast from Burgund nearly 200 years ago. In fact, all of Luxembourg is essentially German. Also, the region was not "liberated by the Welsh" who are simply seeking to steal land on the continent. Also I will not unite my lands just because you say so. I have several distinct ethnic groups within it. Also, if Wales get the Luxembourgish coast, which is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of it, Aquitane demands the southern French regions which it intervened in in 1756/7/8. Again, I am very much opposed to most of the Welsh gains in this war. The current Welsh occupation of the Luxembourgish coast is an occupation of German territory, not Rhinish, nor French. This potentially calls for war. You have reduced Luxembourg to a rump state that is smaller than it originally was in 1450, and Germany will not tolerate this. Germany win also not protect Avignon in any case as Germany is not Catholic and has not been for well over 100 years. 00:53, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

to be correct 155 years/turns ago and Your claims in Southern france have no reason as your intervention was to france itself, not Occitania or Papal provence which is vassal to france administrated from carthage, and i agree with you, although not due to Luxembourg being german ( they are Franco-germanic peoples rather than german or french) and even so the point of luxembourg would be that in the case that luxembourg was to be partially given to france it should mean that either the netherlands cede some of flanders to keep luxembourg's coast ,and per se i say status quo antebellum for the allies that fought strellok, and a division of the rhenish land between Germany,France,Switzerland,Bavaria, the netherlands  and Saxony as they were the affect, italia, wales and other involved nations shouldn't gain anything because they were not directly affected by the war. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:38, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

My idea behind giving the land in Central Germany to Wales was not to give the land to Wales proper, but the Palatinate, a nation which is in Dynastic/Personal Co-Union with Brython. Also, pegging Wales in with Italia and other nations (ie Russia), isn't fair. Strellok declared war on Wales. King Arthur II himself led a naval battle that eliminated Strellok's navy. He also led a landing in Normandy and an attack on Luxembourg with an army numbering 100,000 when Germany was engaged defending its capitals. We put him on the defensive in the north. Reximus55 (talk) 04:44, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Palatinate is already with Bavaria, and has been so for very long.


 * 16:11, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Switzerland agrees to the new map This is UglyTurtle, Signing off. 04:56, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Where are Bavarian gains, we helped turn the tide of war yet we haven't been given anything??? Bavaria will not defend Avignon, there is no reason as a Germanic Church member we should aid the Papacy. I am opposed to Wales gaining land, and from a Bavarian perspective as a founding member of the Germanic Union, a Welsh occuping force can be seen as an invasion, in which Bavaria and Germany will respond in kind. Andr3w777 (talk) 05:07, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

That is a good point, yet I fail to see where you can gain any lands... maybe Strassburg can go to Bavaria in place of Switzerland, or maybe France will willingly relinquish Tyrolia since they are now distantly connected and you can gain Tyrolia. You border Mainz-Palatinate (Welsh Union), Switzerland, Tyrolia (French Vassal), Strassburg, and Westphalia. I think we can all agree that Saxony was hit the hardest, and therefore they deserve Westphalia. An alternative may involve you trading Slovakia for Austria?

On a seperate note, what occupying force on behalf of Wales do you see? The only Welsh force I know of is the one in Luxembourg, and that one is to liberate the region. If you are referring to the military governor, it is commonplace for a General to assign a Governor of the regained territory during the war to prevent war crimes, and to enforce pre-war law. Reximus55 (talk) 05:54, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well first of Palatinate is Bavarian, I vasslaized almost a decade ago and annexed to my main nation, it was a part of a deal i made awhile back. you have technically taken it from me through your union thing. i was under the impression that you were refusing to relinquish hold of liberated areas back to Germany, which is what I objected, I have long wanted Tyrol and Straussburg. I can relinquish my claim on Palatinate if I gain those two.Andr3w777 (talk) 06:36, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about the Palatinate! It has never been on a map that I have seen, so I deeply apologize. I would like to maintan my possesion of the Palatinate, however (if possible). I think it would be more than reasonable for you to gain Tyrol (up to France, not me). As for Strassburg, I think a 50-50 split with the Swiss would be fair. If the Palatinate is truly off limits, I will edit my posts to say Mainz. Reximus55 (talk) 08:24, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

The King-Duke applauds Wales' initiative in beginning a Concert of Europe. Saxony agrees with most of the proposals, but has three objections and one request. Firstly, We wish to gain Cologne (or some other part connecting Saxony with the Netherlands), as we wish to share a border with the Netherlands and not to be entirely hemmed-in by Brandenburg. Sacondly, we wish to be able to allow Anhalt to retain independence (if we want to), as is our right as overlord. Thirdly, Prussia should remain independent. It has contributed to the anti-Strellokian alliance as much as it can, considering its size, general backwardness, and distance from the war. If it is not, then the rulers should be compensated with either the proposed "Palatine" nation, or Anhalt, if the civil war stops. Callumthered (talk) 11:30, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * We thank Saxony for pointing out the effort that Prussia has put into the war and we reinforce the point on our independence. Kunarian TALK 11:54, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Germany (Br.) offers to give that thin piece of land between extended Saxony and the Netherlands.
 * 16:11, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Also, could the Confederation's loyalist Government-In-Exile take up permanent residence in Rhinish Guinea and establish a Boer-style country there? They could be a member of the GU. Callumthered (talk) 11:39, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

'''I have already decided on how this event will end and how the Rhinish confederation will be divided. Wales you get nothing. This discussion is rather unneccessary. I had already put how the Rhine Confederation will be divided between the German Union nations on the Greater Germanic Union page a week ago.''' The other talks about Avingion and stuff however are okay, but the Rhine question has already got an answer a week ago and even longer ago when I was thinking through these events to do with Strellok. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:35, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

I do not think that the partition is fair, at least for me. Cleves is located inside Netherlands, and long ago was vassal... Then came the mod events that formed the confederation, taking my 2 vassals: Cleves and Munster, and at the end of this war I have not received practically nothing, since I am one of those affected. I think at least the top of Munster should return to my control. Quashi (talk) 20:21, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I (Saxony) will happily give you the top of Munster. Callumthered (talk) 20:29, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah that does make sense, sure parts of North and western Munster will go to the Dutch then. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:18, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Let it be known. War is coming. :D
 * 21:22, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Let you be warned that any war, will be bad for both sides Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:40, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * War...with...me??? I was happy to accept your initial terms, Brandenburg, before I was handed Munster. Callumthered (talk) 05:05, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say its more likely that the war would be with me as i get picardy which he wants to keep a coast to luxembourg Sine dei gloriem (talk) 15:25, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would I war with you, Callum? I was talking about France.
 * 21:09, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * A war with France? I hope you dont attack  Netherlands... Quashi (talk) 22:13, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I wouldn't do that. You're an important trading partner.
 * 22:20, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
I, Lithuania, would like to have an alliance with Germany against Prussia. I would like a share of Prussian territory. including the capital of Konigsburg if possible. OOC: I hope to slap. Lithuanian name on Konigsburg.Yank 00:29, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Accepted, this time. Last time I was in a huge war. Sorry.

00:53, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I as Prussia ask for a guarantee of my independence in the form of alliances from Lithuania and Brandenburg. I am shocked to hear of this as we have been allied with Brandenburg and the rest of Germany for a few years now and have sent some of what few soldiers we have to try and assist Germany, including Brandenburg. This is not an alliance against Brandenburg Kunarian TALK 06:41, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Metagaming. You would not know about these secret arrangements.
 * I don't think this would be metagaming. The supposedly secret arrangements were made in a general discussion at the Avalon Congress. Just saying... Reximus55 (talk) 03:11, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Alongside our request for an alliance simply to guarantee our independence, we would ask for an alliance against Lithuania to reclaim the lost Prussian lands, anyone who would join with us may take any amount of territory beyond the area (basically all the teal land) shown in the map as we would simply like our homeland rejoined once more. Kunarian TALK 07:05, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Alliance maybe?? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 15:29, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
May I as Prussia, express the insult we feel for not having been invited to the conference despite being a relatively minor power we are a member of the alliance. Kunarian TALK 23:45, July 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * You were not part of the Wars. Its not that we want to exclude you, it is just that you are not part of the ongoing Wars in the capacity that the other nations have been. I have decided to invite you anyway. Reximus55 (talk) 00:18, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand that our contributions are mainly economic and not military however we feel that this could affect us greatly and so we would like our albeit small voice to be heard, so thank you. Kunarian TALK 06:38, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * If Brandenburg enters into an alliance with a foreign power against a fellow member of the GU, Saxony (and Bavaria) will have to consider whether Brandenburg is truly committed to the "stability of central Europe" or whether it is merely committed to its own personal gain. We  sincerely  hope that Saxony will not have to do any such considering, as Brandenburg is a long-standing friend and ally, with morals &c. Callumthered (talk) 11:30, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * We thank Saxony for the reinforcement of the idea of unity behind the GGU. Kunarian TALK 11:52, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Since when was Prussia a GU member? This never happened.
 * 16:11, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * We joined in 1755. Saxony and Bavaria have understood this, we joined on the terms agreed: That I would convert to the Germanic Church and that I would be open to arrangements towards a protectorate in the future. Kunarian TALK 16:29, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was of the mind that he had been accepted in 1755, hence the objection to an alliance against him. Callumthered (talk) 20:33, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

If you must reduce Venaissin (which is the proper name), then at least allow the Pope control over the holy city of Avignon. It houses the only proper papal residence other than the one the Italians forced the papacy to evacuate in Rome.Yank 00:23, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Feel free to edit that. Also, please sign in? Reximus55 (talk) 00:18, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's Provence. You can check the labelled map as well as the nations list.
 * 01:33, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Pretty sure that was just used in order to Not have to type the more complicated name of Venaissin. That was the name it had when the Papacy was there in the 1300's and its the name now. Also the labelled map has been wrong before. I'm also sure "Beja" had another name that was forgotten. Yank 01:23, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nubia?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:21, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Prussia
Total: 39*1.5 (revolutionary government)= 58.5 = 59
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: Prussia (L) = +4
 * Military Development: 8/0 = +8
 * Economy: 4/0 = +4
 * Infrastructure: +0
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +0
 * Edit Count: 900
 * UTC Time: 06:56 = 6*5*6 = 180
 * 900/180 * Pi = 15.70796327
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: +0

Lithuania
Total: 39=39
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +0
 * Strength: Lithuania (L) = +4
 * Military Development: 0 = +0
 * Economy: 0 = +0
 * Infrastructure: +0
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +5
 * Edit Count: 10,786
 * UTC Time: 06:56 = 6*5*6 = 180
 * 10,786/180 * Pi = 188.2512131
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: +0

Result
Mod help pls.

Discussion
Feel free to comment. Kunarian TALK 08:55, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

The edits thing is different. I'll do the proper one for both of you. Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:23, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Can I have a mod help please. It's a little late and btw I'm back! :D Kunarian TALK 20:17, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * You get 20%Yank 14:33, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right well I only want the area that I claimed which is less than 20% I believe. Kunarian TALK 15:08, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd take the 20% while you still have the 1.5 x bonus. Reximus55 (talk);;
 * Give me a minute I'll throw up a map of what's going on with that 20% then. Kunarian TALK 16:03, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lithuania is 437 pixels large so 20% is 87 pixels. And Yank is a mod Kun, so he is perfectly fine to do this algorithm. And it is +5 nation age for Lithuania as its government ain't changed. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:45, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * PM2PruLitTerritoryChange1760.png Here we go then. And are you sure you're right about Lithuania being 437 pixels in size, that'd make it smaller than Prussia. :P Kunarian TALK 19:50, July 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woops, Prussia is 437 pixels and Lithuania is 1397 pixels. I got the nations mixed up. Your map there helped me spot my mistake and the 1700 named map confirmed my error. I'm using the 1760 map btw for these pixels sizes. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:13, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that the current Prussian government could be classified as a revolutionary government. At best it would be -10 for Prussia with the last government change being entrance into the Germanic Union. 05:45, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Government change refers to a change in the whole government not of policy therefore the overthrow of the previous government was the time of the last government change. And the current Prussian government overthrew the previous government and established a type of republic, quite revolutionary for the time most certainly, close to Napoleon (who is used as an example of revolutionary government in the rules). Kunarian TALK 06:41, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Eh, that's taking the definition very far. I'd say it shouldn't count as the definition also includes Hitler. The fact with Hitler and Napoleon is that they replaced their respective governments with something almost as bad. 20:44, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then tell me at least three points that define a revolutionary government. Kunarian TALK 21:21, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1: People discontent with old (oppressive in most cases) government.
 * 2: New government is formed after series of uprisings and notions of civil war.
 * 3: New government begins to devolve and seek to set the record straight.
 * That is how your revolutionary government is formed. Most often, it is followed by this:
 * 4: New government falls into old government style and goes on a string of wars (with 1.5 bonus).
 * Your government goes more like this:
 * 1: People decide that they're bored with their old fashioned crusty government.
 * 2: New government declared with relative lack of bloodshed.
 * 3: New government remains stable.
 * 15:46, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Absence
I won't be here for 1761, so be nice, and also I've put generally what will happen for my 1761 turn bold in below my 1760 turn. Be back soon! Kunarian TALK 15:02, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

perhaps lol <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:24, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian Federation
Total: 70*1.1 = 77
 * Location: +2
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Arabian Federation (L), Arabian Caliphate (M), Kuwait (MV), Baghdad (MV), Maldives (MV), Comchellak (MV), Levantine Kingdom (M), Tanimbarkai (P): 19/4 = +5
 * Military Development: 26/3 = +9
 * Economy: 4/3 = +1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +2
 * Edit Count: 4,305
 * UTC Time: 10:38 - 24
 * (4305/24)*pi= 563.523182238
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Bima
Total: 41
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Larantuka (L): 4/19 = 0
 * Military Development: 3/26 = 0
 * Economy: 3/4 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +3
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
((77/(41+77))*2)-1 = 0.30508474576 - 30.51%

(30.51)*(1-1/(2*3)) = 25.425%

25.43% of Bima's 265 pixels is 67 pixels. These 67 pixels of territory will be annexed by the Federation into the Kupang colony.

Discussions
I finish this algorithm when I wake up tommorow, I am le tired now. Feel free to add ur nations to this algorithm if u are being nice and sending me military aid :) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:24, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Okay it is finished, victory is mine. I'll be following it up with a second invasion soon. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:13, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Woops forgot my industrialization bonus! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:29, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Russia's Eventual War with the Kazakh Khanate...
Russia will have this war...eventualy, once I buff up my military and economy stats...-Lx (leave me a message) 16:42, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Algorithm Industry Bonus
I saw that Von mentioned some Industrialization bonus for the Algorithm, and I have not seen, or at the very least don't Remember any Industry bonus discussed, can sombody please clarify on what it is, if it exists, and, well, put in up on the rules page because there is no mention on what exactly the Industry bonus is, it just mentions it in the Coalition section.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:06, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, according to Von, you only get the bonus if your fighting against one very primitive nation. Har. If your fighting against several unindustrialized nations, you still don't get the bonus even if you can outproduce them. ChaCha! Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:28, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

You get it if your more industrialized then the other nation - e.g. they are stage 1 industrailized and you are stage 2. If you are in a coalition then the majority of the leader nations in the coalition need to be more industrialized than the other side. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:41, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

yes, ok, I think I understand that part about coalitions, but that still does not answer my main question(sorry if I was not more clear): What form does the bonus take? I still dont understand what is added or how the bonus is calculated.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:24, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

10% for each stage higher. So 1 stage higher its 1.1 and two stages higher its 1.2, etc. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:35, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks-Lx (leave me a message) 22:44, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

Von, wasn't Orissa more industrialized than you and Scraw, yet you said that it didn't matter? I can't buy that. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:10, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Because Imp had two levels--red and orange. Both Von and I have orange territories and they were involved in the war, so they cancelled each other out.

15:42, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

You really never pay any attention do you Viva? As I have repeatedly told you, if you are in a coalition then the majority of the leader nations in the coalition need to be more industrialized than the other side. 1 nation out of 9 being more industrialized isn't a majority. Get this through your thick skull already before I ban you. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:05, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Von, please. I'm not disturbing the game. I'm not harassing other players. And I'm not disobeying any rules. Right now, the only reason you want to ban me is because I disagree with you. If you try to ban me, it'll just make you look bad. Fair warning. Now in my calmest tone. There has rarely been any case in recorded history where an industrialized nation has been defeated by multiple unindustrialized nations. Britian beat all of India by itself since it could outproduce the Indians. The United States outproduced all of Europe, and as I made clear before, produced half of the world's military supplies and equipment. One nation. One nation out of 54, counting Britian, Germany, Russia, France, and Japan. All industrialized. I rest my case. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:07, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

@Scraw. You forget that I was also orange, and that neither you, me nor Von had industrialized. As the rules pointed out, the colors only show who industrializes first and in what order. So they couldn't cancelled each other out since no one but Imp had industrialized. It's like saying the President-elect can start declaring war simply because he's about to become the president, even though the old President is still in charge. Just because his going to be the President doesn't make him the President. Not until he's sworn in at least. Same applies to pre-industrial nations in the game. Just because their going to industrialize doesn't mean they've industrialized. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 15:23, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Ahahaha, this is where you are wrong. You see, since you were on the attacking side, you guys got your lower industrialized levels, which was yellow for you and orange for Imp. Same story for me and Von. So in full theory, none of us had industrialized, as Orissan industrialization was still vastly in its infancy.

18:56, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Tribal Vassalization Rules
I wanted to kick start a discussion as a result of the Chono-Huarpe dispute in the Map section regarding the vassalization of Tribes in the black area. I think this may have some potential as a strategy to help close up the black areas quicker (and for those of us playing somewhat isolated nations ourselves) but there should probably be some rules on how to do this rather than just haphazardly inventing new states on the map. This goes to another point, which is that just becasue a tribal "nation" was real (an area of common culture), central GOVERNMENT did not exist among these groups and they first had to be united into a STATE (which we would show as gray areas). It's entirely possible for a colonial power to set up a local puppet chief and centralize his authority, so here's a proposal for how I think it could work.

''1. In order to vassalize a tribe, you must first  use your influence to centralize their government. This takes five years at the cost of half a turn per year, the tribe MUST border either your nation or your colonies (They could also be on the borders of a vassal, but the new state will be a vassal of the vassal not the main nation). If the tribe is placed on the borders of another nation, that other nation has the right to immediately begin influencing the tribe at no cost to them.''

2. At the end of five years, the new state will be placed on the map in a PRE-SPECIFIED location in gray and will be exactly 5,000 sq km in size.

''3. It will take another five years to fully vassalize this new nation, other players are free to interact with this new nation, and it is NOT controlled by the player that created it. (It also becomes a playable nation on the off chance that a new player signs up in the five year gap.)''

''4. Once vassalized, this new nation is classified not as a full vassal but as a "Tribal Vassal." Tribal vassals may expand at a constant rate of 2,000 sq km per year - to a MAXIMUM SIZE of 20,000 sq km.''

5. Tribal vassals may never be merged with colonies, vassals, or your main nation for the duration of the game - and they must become fully independent upon decolonization.

This is a start - but I think it may help us fill in the black areas and populate the map for later in the game. I think it also provides significant barriers against the idea of "vassal dumping" (inventing a large nation right next to another player in order to halt their expansion).

Thoughts?

Commandante Lemming (talk) 16:27, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

I think the tribes should be able to annexed into a colony or nation, I mean this was done very often with the USA, Brazil and Australia to name a few. We also need to make sure that the tribe actually exists and is in the location specified. Maybe we do a new labeled map with the black areas divided into the tribal regions? Or perhaps we allow nations to expand at a greater rate if they are invading a "non existant on the map" tribal nation by penalizing them with a war penalty of -1 in the algorithm? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:54, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

That might work, although I think It would be really hard to make a labelled boundary map with a set list of tribes. For instance, in my part of South American, the "Chono culture" was pretty widespread and there could easily be multiple Chono states. On the other hand, the Selk'nam culture could be lumped in with the wider "Fuegian" distinction along with the Alacaluf, Yaghan, and Huash cultures (despite cultural differences)...OR it could have been subdivided into smaller independent units such as the Ona (who shared Selk'nam culture and language but were not really united with the other groups that shared Selk'nam culture - I ended up using the whole Selk'nam culture but it's debatable).

Personally I like the idea of leaving the black area undefined and letting players place tribal nations becasue it enhances the creativity and randomness of the game (which is why we are all playing a Wiki-based game rather than any number of pre-packaged geopolitical strategy games that we could buy). I wouldn't have been able to invent the Great Haruwin without the randomness, becasue the area likely would have been lumped into a "Mapuche" or "Chono" region.

As for the absorbtion thing I suggested it as a way of ensuring this isn't used as a backhanded way to expand colonies faster than they should expand. I was thinking that if you set up a puppet regime it's hard to fully absorb it, like the princely states in India, or the fact that Lesotho is still an enclave in South Africa becasue the British made it a protectorate rather than absorbing it. That and I think it would make things really interesting later.

Just my two cents though.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 20:15, July 15, 2013 (UTC)

They are still expanding faster than they should but its not their colonies but their puppets. Which is worse because puppets are more useful in the war algorithm than colonies. Plus like you say the debates on where these tribes live is difficult. No I think we should keep it how it is, with mods deciding when a tribe rises up to become a nation. So if players want to mention the tribes they have conquered, they can mention these tribes in their posts. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:55, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Could I, say, go to a large-scale war to unite the Chono, although I am not the Chono, thereby making them my vassal? Reximus55 (talk)

Well no because you are not the Chono and they lack a nation state too. You could do your expansion as normal and mention in your posts how your expansion is part of your mission to unite the Chono. But why would the British care that a native populace is now united? They just want their resources and to profit from them. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:04, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Well it would be convoluted but not unprecedented to try to prop up a local regime rather than outright colonoization. There aren't a lot of examples of this in Latin American because in real life that was early colonization by the Spanish and they just ran roughshod. However, we're in the 1700s her and talking about Enlightenment-age Welshmen. The British empire in particular, and especially in this historical period, did a LOT of propping up locals and moaking them pseudo-protectorates, both to soothe their own consciences and to keep and established authority with local credibility in place. They did this to great effect in India and later in Southern Africa. It would not be entirely out of character for PMII Wales to attempt something like that in a version of history where South America is still largely unsettled frontier (wheras in the real world I was one of the earliest places colonized) Commandante Lemming (talk) 17:13, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Arabian Federation
Total: 74*1.1 = 81
 * Location: +2
 * Tactical Advantage: +6
 * Strength: Arabian Federation (L), Arabian Caliphate (M), Kuwait (MV), Baghdad (MV), Maldives (MV), Comchellak (MV), Levantine Kingdom (M), Tanimbarkai (MV): 20/4 = +5
 * Military Development: 20/2 = +10
 * Economy: 4/2 = +2
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit Count: 4,329
 * UTC Time: 10:12 - 2
 * (4329/2)*pi= 6799.9772987
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +27
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Bima
Total: 41
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Larantuka (L): 4/20 = 0
 * Military Development: 2/26 = 0
 * Economy: 2/4 = 0
 * Infrastructure: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +7
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -3

Result
((81/(41+81))*2)-1 = 0.32786885245 - 32.79%

(32.79)*(1-1/(2*1)) = 16.395%

Won 25.43% in the first war and 25.43 + 16.395 = 41.825 so the Federation topples Bima's government after 1 year of war and annexes them into the Kupang colony.

Nation Time
The rules say that colonies can start proclaiming independence as of 1776.we are in 1766 already, so, on advance, how is it going to be?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:40, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of having Scraw's USA-Canada colony declaring indepedence as a sort of psuedo-USA type nation. But I've decided to wait a bit with that. Same situation with the Italian USA colonies too. If one of the players want to do it of their own accord, that'd be great too. If any more large wars happen then I'll use the higher taxes on colonies thanks to the wars as reason for the rebellion. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:20, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I dont see that much of logic about 1776. Other than the "oooh its america". I think that we could have colonies split now, since rebellions have occured before 1776, just not succesfully(mostly slaves). I believe that since it is past 1750, it is reasonable for colonies to succeed in becoming independant...since we already established that just because it happened one date in OTL, does not mean it cant happen earlier in ATL in terms of technology, I dont see why we can't have succesful colonial revolitions before OTL's first succesful colonial revolution.-Lx (leave me a message) 19:32, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the date matters too much. i was more asking about who is going to be first.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:28, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it matters, although it interests me that this would be more of a parallel history if it happened in 1776 as opposed to any other time. Who are the prime candidates for independence? CourageousLife (talk) 19:40, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Like I say its probably the next nation with a big colony to be dragged into a big war which mean they have to tax their colonists more heavily. This new Bavarian revolution could start one for example. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:01, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that recent Strellok war be one of thoe big wars that you are talking about?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:29, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * It could be yeah, but I mean from now so people have warning of it possibly happening. But my main concern is having these nations just becoming NPCs so I want someone to play as them, maybe if they simulate the war of indepedence in their own posts perhaps? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:11, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought that people could at least play as three of their former colonies at one time, as per the compromise that Lurker made a while back? -Kogasa [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|50px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|23px|border]] 2013 July 20, 19:43 (CET)
 * I am going to place the first declaration of independence way back in 1745 with the war of Bruneian independence. Now, this isn't exactly the same, but it works very similar to a colonial independence. The one thing I would suggest/advise it this: Independent nations cannot be vassalized by any other nation. This happened with Brunei (which was ok at the time, due to strong history), but in most cases it would be like France vassalizing the USA. Doesnt make much sense, does it? Similarly, I think that after 2 wars with the nation that declared independence, the Mother Nation must relinquish control over their nation. (ie, War of 1812). Also, no Commonwealths until the first World War that we have in the 1900s. Reximus55 (talk) 18:57, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

I was pretty much planning some sort of Dominion system around this time, but Strellok kind of put that on hold. However, this was after I had some sort of unsuccessful rebellion, forcing the government to grant more autonomy. Someone has to be Britain, eh? I'm still searching for a better name, as I don't want to us "dominion" all over again. Also, we need not necessarily have World Wars in the same sense as OTL. After all, we have pretty much already have had two or three wars that have engulfed most of the world.

21:35, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to have my portion of the Americas declaring independence soon... Scandinator (talk) 15:58, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Leave of Absence
I'm going on vacation for the next 2 weeks and don't know when I'll be able to post again. I give scraw permission to post for Russia. Just alternate military and economic dev and expand Kannada and novorossiya 4500 sq km each -Lx

Got it.

23:03, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Selk'nam/Wales Royal Marriage
I posted this on the main page but I wanted to throw it in here so it doesn't fall off the radar - and I want to write on it this year. I'm not going to be a huge fly in the ointment, but I do think that at this point it would frankly be ASB to disallow this marriage based on the values of this timeline. Also, seeing as we're in a less racist timeline to begin with AND we're deep into the Enlightenment, a racial enlightenment at the royal level would be a perfectly natural outgrowth (that and this sort of thing is something I've been very carefully bulding for my whole game).

Wales and the Selk'nam have a deep bond. For one thing, the Selk'nam culture is deeply influenced by the Welsh culture. I'm note sure about language, but I know at least the leaders of the Selk'nam can speak Welsh. (Note to Commandante - Can you post about more Welsh cultural immersion, BTW?) We are huge trading partners, and are really close allies. Also, at least for Praxedes, I am under the opinion that she is not fully Selk'nam, but already part Welsh. Cornelius' great-granddaughter means that there are 8 great-grandparents of Praxedes. As part of the mixing of royal families, which happens regularly in Christian nations, I'd bet 4/8 of her great-grandparents were white, with 3/8 of them being Welsh. This would hardly impact the blood-line, as the child (which is the main concern of most political unions) would be 1/4 Selk'nam at most, while still being predominantly white. Reximus55 (talk) 05:27, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Original protest: " If you disallow this marriage you are throwing out the last century worth of history in this timeline. Consider the following: We exist in a world where India is an industrial power. The Mayan Empire still exists. The Japanese AND Chinese, along with the Indians, are colonial powers. The Atlantic slave trade does not exist. The Spanish colonial empire (which developed a lot of ideas about Native Americans) never existed becasue the Portuguese conquered Spain. The Selk'nam's agressive Westernization has seen them widely embraced by Europe as a Christian nation on par with the rest of Christendom (that being the key to this marriage), and have even been allowed to build monestaries on European soil.  On top of that, Magedeburg has already had a ruler who was half Australian Aboriginal, and the Welsh king lives in a palace built by a Selk'nam architect who was considered the greatest European artisan of his generation.  Thanks to our "butterfly effect", this timeline is SIGNIFICANTLY less racist than OTL (which is not unrealistic based on events). Numerous events have frankly prohibited racism from developing to half the extent it has in the real world, and we CANNOT hold this timeline to OTL cultural moorings that were never allowed to develop in this world. Hence, TO DISALLOW THIS MARRIAGE WOULD BE ASB and in total conflict with history."
 * Commandante Lemming (talk) 03:30, July 22, 2013 (UTC)



I've prepared a pedigree for Praxedes - posted below. Great Chief connections are highlighted in red (She is a direct descendent of David and Cornelius, as well as a great niece of Pius. She has three non-Selk'nam great-grandparents (two Welsh, one Japanese). Her great-grandfather was the Deputy Viceroy of De Mor Tir, whose daughter married the Selk'nam ambassador. So, she is 5/8 Selk'nam, 2/8 Welsh, 1/8 Japanese. Also most Christian Selk'nam aristocracy are proficient in Welsh and Wales has been our primary Europen cultural influence (we are not Welsh immersed, as our goal is to be an independent Christian nation, but the influence is most definitely there, and I have some plans on that front). It is also worth noting that the Selk'nam have also had a cultural effect on Wales - there are a lot of Selk'nam citizens of De Mor Tir as a result of the aborted Selk'nam settlement there - and most Welsh acrchitecture has Selk'nam influences thanks to Rafael.

Commandante Lemming (talk) 15:10, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria & Co.

 * Location: +4


 * Tactical Advantage: +6


 * Strength:
 * Bavaria=16 [Bavaria (L), Salzburg (MV), Bavarian Java (MV), Bavarian Indonesia (MV), Bavarian Australis (MV), Bavarian Cyrenaica (MV), Bavarian Carthage (MV) ]
 * Orissa=17 [Maharajya (MW), Rajputana (MW), Assam (MVW), Kuch (MVW), Nepal (MVW), Khmer (MW), Cebu (MW), Mataram (MW), Brunei (MW), Sindustan (MV)]
 * Saxony=26 [Saxony (L), Munster (MV), Bar (MV), Metz (MV), Sandgau (MV), Strassburg (MV), Palatine (MV), Mainz (MV), Westphalia (MV), Cologne (MV),  Limburg  (MV), Anhalt (MV)]
 * Arabia=12 [Dimurat (LW), Baghdad (LVW), Levant (L), Qoyunlu (LV)]
 * Netherlands=25 [Netherlands (L), Oldeburg (MV), Liege (MV), West Munster (MV), Cleves (MV), Iceland (MV), Dutch Persia (MV), Warqama (MV), Kongo (MP), Acech-Pasai (MP), Mali (M)]
 * France=30 [France (L), Musica (MV), New Judea (MV), Zululand (MV), Lorraine (MV), La Marche (MV), Papal States (MV), Switzerland (MV), Occitania (MV), Cathage (MV), Numidia (MV), Leptic Magna (MV), Picardie (MV), Lorraine (MV)]
 * Venice=25  [Italia (L), Greece (L), Hungary (SV), Yugoslavia (L), Malacca (L), Siam (L), Aymara (SV), Nya Gyptios (SV), Romania (SV), Padang (SV), Montenegro (SV)]
 * Prussia=3 [Prussian Protectorate (LW)]
 * Lithuania=3 [Lithuanian Protectorate (LW)]
 * Ethiopia=12 [Adal (M), Darfur (M), Kitara (M), Yorubaland (M)]
 * Total=171
 * 169/91 ~ 2


 * Military Development: 230/202 ~ +1


 * Economy: 114/104 ~ +1


 * Infrastructure: 0


 * Expansion: 0


 * Motive: +70


 * Chance: +9
 * Edit Count: 1,407
 * UTC Time: 11:14 - 4
 * (1411/4)*pi= 1108.19680855


 * Nation Age: +1


 * Population:  +11 (9+2) (106.8/86=1.2)


 * Participation: +10


 * Recent Wars: -16

Total: 102

Germanic Reich, etc.

 * Location: +5


 * Tactical Advantage: +0
 * G. Reich (63): Brandenburg (L), East Brandenburg (L), Poland (L), Austria (L), Luxembourg (L), Aquitane (L), Courland (L), West Prussia (L),  Georgia (LV), Armenia (LV), Denmark (M), Sweden (M), Norway (M), Mysore (MV), Lanka (MV), Travancore (MV), Carnatic (MV), Hyderabad (MV), Neu Prussen (MV), Chimu (MV), Oaxaca (MV), Angouleme (MV), Gibraltar (MV), Nya Syriac (MV)
 * Mayan Empire (8): Mayan Empire (L), Zapotec (MV), Greater Kaliforno (MV)
 * Russia (20): Russia (L), Kuban (MV), Suur Suomi (MV), Norwein (MV), Minsk (MV), Tatar State (MV), Caucasia (MV), Riga (MV), Astrakhan (MV)
 * Basic strength total: 91/171 = 0


 * Military Development: 202/250 = 0


 * Economy: 104/134 = 0


 * Infrastructure: 0


 * Expansion: -1


 * Motive: +93


 * Chance: +0
 * Edit Count: 6,670
 * UTC Time: 16:59 - 270
 * (6,670/270)*pi= 77.608974072


 * Nation Age: +5


 * Population: +8


 * Participation: +10


 * Recent Wars: -26

Total: 94

Result of the Great war of German Succession
Narrow Bavarian coalition victory:

((101/(94+101))*2)-1 = 0.03589743589

3.59*(1-1/(2*8)) = 3.37% of the Brandenburg Coalition's leaders nations.

3.37% of the Brandenburg's coaltion's 302,275 pixels is 10,187 pixels.

Discussion
Can a mod redo Bavaria's part, i am not good with algosAndr3w777 (talk) 18:05, July 25, 2013 (UTC) What about Prussia? :O Kunarian TALK 12:34, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry lol your on the board.Andr3w777 (talk) 12:41, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Erm the Federation and Caliphate won't be leaders in this war, but the Dimurats, Qoyunlu, Levant and Baghdad will be. Also I recommend using the table system that we used in the Great Arab-Ethiopian war of the 1720s as you have done a lot of this coalition algorithm wrong (e.g. motive, the bonuses, etc.).

Also the Dimurats want Germany's Persian colony, The Levant wants the Adana territories, and Baghdad & Qoyunlu will split up Georgia, Armenia and co. between themselves. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:52, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Add the Selk'nam in on the Bavarian/Welsh side of this thing. Commandante Lemming (talk) 14:38, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wow That was f***ing fast! Sine dei gloriem (talk) 15:31, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

All Land Requests shall be presented in a seperate post AFTER the war.Andr3w777 (talk) 15:41, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Von could you when you get a chance fix this, i can never do an algo right.

~ whoever

You completely screwed up what Von said and I see no record of the Netherlands, Italia, or Orissa joining this war.

16:02, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

As a note I did not set this algo, idk how to realy set one up, as for Orissa has committed as well as the Netherlands shall they back out they will be removed.

Also, Carthage, Lorraine,Occitania, La Marche, Tyrol and the Vennaisin Should be leaders, (Vennaisin not so much) as they are either important french territories or border the german territories directly. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 16:31, July 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Netherlands is in. Quashi (talk) 18:34, July 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow, I really did not expect you of all nations. 18:41, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I can deal with being accused of these BS letters, but not conspiring with "John Chongat" (whom I have never heard of) nor the "Annists" (who I have not heard of either).

16:26, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

No one said the letters are real, the Chongat one was produced under diress by very scared people. You think it's real? I don't and I invented the freaking thing :-) Commandante Lemming (talk) 16:51, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

May I just point out that your 'a million leaders' is completely wrong. You have Brandenburg and then all of your vassal states: Austria, Poland, etc. Else the Lithuanian protectorate is suddenly becoming an independent state and a leader. Kunarian TALK 16:47, July 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also I swear colonies are not considered vassals.  Kunarian TALK 16:48, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * They are not all vassals. Poland and Austria are in dynastic union, as are Luxembourg and Aquitane, and the rest are all in union. I used this same format in PMI. Also none of my colonies are listed as vassals.
 * 16:56, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * A leader is a player nation or an NPC being attacked. Under that idea we can declare every single subordinate nation a leader. Poland and Austria and Luxembour and Aquitane are subordinate to Brandenburg, so they are treated as vassals. Otherwise you don't get to control them.  Kunarian TALK 17:04, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you're pulling this from. I did this all perfectly well back when Von and I and the others beat Imp and Viva.
 * 17:06, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I must have misunderstood the rules, so correcting my mistake Lithuania is now a leader.  Kunarian TALK 17:09, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, now you are misunderstanding. You have made Lithuania a protectorate. Protectorate. Nowhere at all near what I have spent two centuries creating.
 * 17:16, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you are misunderstanding, Prussia and Lithuania are protectorates, due to them having a lord protector as the head of government rather than a King, not because of any subordination.  Kunarian TALK 17:18, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * This happened OTL, look at the English protectorate, it had a lord protector as it's head, Oliver Cromwell. Interesting man.  Kunarian TALK 17:20, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * And pray tell, who exactly are they protectorates of? The Lord Protector? Sounds reasonable enough.
 * 17:30, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you not have heard of the Annists? They are the Anhaltese equivalent of the Jacobites. They have been around since the great Anhaltese civil War and were particularly prominent from 1586-1616. They again rose to prominence during the Strellokian War, when they joined forces with Strellock. Jeez. Callumthered (talk) 01:12, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I normally skim posts, I probably skipped that over.
 * 01:18, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Completely understandable. Callumthered (talk) 06:35, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I have editted a few important things. I also completely reject the idea that your government voted to secede to GGU after it had been removed. Therefore, you can't just "elevate" your vassals to states right before a war - the same turn in fact. I have editted:
 * Expansion, rules say, " Expansion: -1 for every turn used for non-colonial expansion in the past 15 years" France, Saxony, and Bavaria did not use up a turn in doing so.
 * Nation Age - Von has said it on Andr3w's talk page. As long as the form of government doesn't change, the nation age doesn't change. This includes revolutionary gov'ts.
 * Thanks, <span style="border:3px solid blue; "> <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Reximus">Reximus   <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Talk">Maximus  19:16, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't elevate them. Since I was "kicked out" (or seceded, whatever, something happened and I was out of the Union), I restored everything that I had before I joined the Union in 1750. France, Saxony, Bavaria, and the Netherlands all expanded the year we defeated Strellok. I actually lost land. 19:21, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually no, Cleves became Netherlands vassal before the war, with a Mond event. And after the defeat of Strellok, I did not win territory, Saxony won my territory but in our subsequent negotiations after the war they gave me part of Munster (that time before was in my power) So not really got expansion penalty. --Quashi (talk) 20:03, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

I am only sending military aid. :P Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:22, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I'll do another set of tables like we did in the last war.... there goes my friday night of Game of Thrones :( <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:09, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Read the books! That's what I'm doing because I can't stand the suspense...then again...I'll just get more hooked on the suspense...anyway, I decided to start from book one...I must say it gives you much more lore and get to know the characters better...don't start from midway into three, you'll just get confused because they merged/deleted certain characters and scenes and changed things for effect/simplicity. Anyway, back to the point: Do you guys ever give me any breaks? its the second time i go pn vacation without my laptop and the second time im dragged into a war unpreparred because of it...arrgh! I never gave scraw permission to declare war for me or kill my country...mainly because I don't feel ready but anyway, it was the plausible thing to do seeing as Germany was attacked by Barvaria, putting the ally I support on the defensive, not to mention the Duma would have declared the letters fakes and the fact that kaiser=tsar, so fine. And also, Minsk and suur-Suomi are not vassals but in PU, entitling them to +3, Estonia/Eesti is part of Suur Suomi, and most importantly: didn't we agree during the first caliphate war around 1490 that: one player, one leader? Oh, and could you guys not tear Russia appart, or take territory, seeing as I am not able to really manage what happens(Lx from his iPhone thankful for bloody 3G connection)


 * Andrew has promised me that he will not allow anyone to take land from you, as I dragged you into the war. 20:17, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not how the Rules work. All leaders usually lose land. ~ imp
 * I agree, if you're a leader you run the risk of losing land, so Russia and Wales would have to fall into a support role or face the chance of land loss. And Andrew cannot make a guarantee for everyone. Especially when there are multiple leaders on both sides. Kunarian TALK 12:35, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Hey guys. I am much in the same boat as Lx, since I am going on a vacation for a week now, and then the term begins right after that. As such, I won't be able to post. If I can get a term wherein I won't have any of my land annexed, then I would join the war. (Since I won't be able to control what goes in either way, I think this will be fair enough.) I really feel like I ought to support Brandenburg, since they were unjustly attacked (even if they were conspirators). Therefore, I have opted to send aid but, as I said, if none of my land will be annexed if we lose (ie, Germany makes that promise, and says it was his bad at the end of the war, and his allies were left out of the loop, let them be and the Bavarian side accepts this offer) I will declare war. If not, I can sadly only offer military aid. Apologies: I am sorry to Andr3w777 for further convincing him to join this conflict and Scraw for telling him I will declare war, when I may not be able to assist him (due to the above). If Germany does win, all I can ask for is the Dutch colonies Argentium and Chile (also if the Dutch want an early out) and/or Nuovo Milano and Adal (and if the Ethiopians want an early out.) Thanks for listening, and as I'll be gone, Quashi has agreed to post for me, but Scraw can add that any of my nations declare war if he can promise I won't lost land. <span style="border:3px solid blue; "> <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Reximus">Reximus   <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Talk">Maximus  09:55, July 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would like to request that Wales get the same guarantee as Russia, as this whole war has been a whole shipload of random crap.
 * 20:17, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can't give guarantees, the only guarantee is to not be a war leader. Kunarian TALK 12:39, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * As a clarification, as I am only one of several leaders. I express my wish Russia and Maya be limited in harm. I gave Scraw the assurance of him retaining Neu Berlin, as that would become his fall-back nation, in exchange if I were to lose, I would retain my Australis colony. I made that commitment and as far as Neu Berlin is concerned, I will stick with it. Russia, Maya, I request be unharmed but cannot make guarantee for such. This war has become a boatload of crap.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 15:24, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am back at a computer for about 1 hour...then i will have radio silence for a week. I would just like to say that I would apreciate that people would not just declare a free for all in Russia...especialy because of size. 1% of russia may be bigger than many nations...I would ask that if territory is taken it be taken from my buffer states(say 20% war loss, territory is from 20% buffers' territory, not from russia propper). I ask no territory be taken because 1. i was dragged into this war and 2. I want to at least be able to bargain for the land lost and not have it be a free-for-all for russia's juicy parts(since, as mentioned before, I will be away from any internets for 1 week. Anyway...since this war has devolved into just a confusing ball of crap, why not just have a pure stalemate with status quo ante bellum, and then use this as a excuse to tax the hell out of colonists than use that as an excuse to have them scream "INDEPENDANCE!"...I'm mainly saying this bcause what, htis war has dragged on for years now? and no clear winner/algorithm non-completed? everyone already took a  -4 hit for war years, lets just leave it at that, shall we? becasue I dont know how much longer it will take for the war algorithm, and I realy dont want to work for many years to wear this off!-Lx (leave me a message) 16:38, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly I am starting to agree with Lx. This war has decended into a mire, muddy and difficult, neither side has gained the upper hand, all of our nations are in the crapper. But IDK anymore, It was messed up from the start.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 17:30, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * We haven't done the algorithm table. Do it, Scraw's side is the one delaying and to be honest that's rather unfair. Kunarian TALK 17:33, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well our table is almost done, we just need to get Sine to place France.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 17:41, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I will accept status quo ante bellum with anyone as this whole war has been a waste of everyone's time and vastly unnecessary. 18:33, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * But you're losing, the algorithm will show this once you do it and stop trying to scare people into leaving by claiming victory, why would anyone go status quo ante bellum? Kunarian TALK 18:54, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I am not losing, and even if I do lose, it will probably not be by much. Seriously, can you stop being a god damn dick? That's honestly what you've been this whole war, trying to create random BS to boost your coalition's score and lower mine. Hell, even Andrew is facing the prospect that he might lose. May I remind you that I didn't start this war? 19:02, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey there's no need for that language, I haven't said anything like that to you, and also I have hardly done anything but encourage people to fill in their places in the table and point out that you are specifically trying to force people to leave our side. And Andrew seems to just be thinking negatively, I don't know what you've said to him but considering how much you are playing the algorithm by creating all these 'leaders' and how many people you've told you're going to win I feel that you are taking this a tad too seriously. Kunarian TALK 19:30, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I apologize; I take it back. I was just pissed off at everything and this whole war for nearly destroying everything I built up from the beginning of the game. I just feel like my time was wasted, ya know? Apologies for my harsh language. 21:04, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Understood. Kunarian TALK 21:17, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah one side does has the upper hand, but we don't know what because people haven't added their nation's information into the table. It would be over now potentially if people just added their details in! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:11, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Scraw's side is the big problem, it's practically empty. And wouldn't all those newly created states have 0 development in military, economy and infrastructure? Kunarian TALK 18:15, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * But the thing is, didnt we agree that one player can only have one leader in the algorithm because of the caliphate nations trying to put all their ministates as leaders and overwhelm the christians in the first holy war? I thought we agreed that only your "main" nation can be a leader(both sides did this, Greece and yugoslavia should be italy, lithuanian protectorate is prussia and brandenburg realy put a lot of leaders taht are realy just him).-Lx (leave me a message) 18:33, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thoroughly agree with Lx here. Kunarian TALK 18:54, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually we changed all that last time we changed the coalition algorithm, so uh, that would be...1700? idk. 19:02, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * But it makes no sense, the rule is open to complete abuse, it would mean that the one who divides themselves into the most states wins because they can claim they are all leaders in a 'coalition' war. One person per leader makes sense. Kunarian TALK 19:32, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what we do now, otherwise a group of San Marino style player nations could overwhelm a single Russia seized Player nation because they have more players on their side. Instead we just try to stop players dividing up their nations into lots of small ones. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:47, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

I added my Nations Scores (France,Occitania,Lorraine and Picardy) in the table, I added occitania lorraine and picardy because they are the equivalents of france of german luxembourg and aquitaine, Picardy just wants to avenge its subjugation century and a half ago. --Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:04, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

So are we going to end this war, or what? CourageousLife (talk) 23:26, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I just did the chance scores now, so unless any other nations join I think this war is over. But Bavaria, Netherlands, & Saxony both could add their vassals as leaders like Scraw did, which would bring it to a draw or a slim Bavarian coalition victory. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:04, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

Bavarian Carthage, Bavarian Indonesia, Bavarian Australis. West Munster, Cleves, Liege. Anhalt, Saxon Norway, excetera (will add more when I get confirmation from Saxony.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 18:16, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

What happened to my motive(s)???

18:42, August 2, 2013 (UTC)

Von's proposed peace treaty
Okay seems people are tired of war, so I purpose a peace treaty with a few territorial exchanges which would have likely happened. These are just ideas for what I think would have happened in a real war. Places like Saxon Norway or Mayan Eastern Panama are near impossible to defend, as would Austria and Aquitaine as they are surrounded. Brandenburg's gains in Canada & Czechslovakia are then to make up for their loses in the other places. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:08, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Saxony loose Saxon Norway to Brandenburg Norway
 * Brandenburg/Luxembourg loses Aquitaine to France
 * France loses their Canadian colony to Brandenburg's colony
 * Mayans lose that thin strip of Panama to France's colony
 * Austria is divided between Italy and Bavaria
 * Bavaria looses northern Czechoslovakia to Brandenburg and Poland

I'd like to contest the cession of Panama, considering almost all of my available military is located in a much closer proximity, as well as the fact that France had other areas to protect. CourageousLife (talk) 21:04, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

I will accept the peace, however as a point of order I'd like to clarify, Czechoslovakia is connected to Bohemia, I will allow the Czechs to go to Brandenburg but not Bohemia as my Royal family if from there. On the map Collie has them as the same, but they are not, I have attempted to correct this in the past but it was ignored. I will accept the treaty on the grounds that Bohemia remain in the Empire.(Von or another mod will be the ONLY people replying to this post.)Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 23:23, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

If Scraw agrees with it i'll relinquish my territories in Labrador if i gain aquitaine, and Like i said to Scraw, eversince the maya betrayal of 1615 the French colony of Nouvelle bourgogne and Brazilea have been under its own military regime, an entire army made up of the french creole population, hence my recovery of the colony is highly likely. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:13, August 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * I was refering to my land in Panama. What was yours stays yours, what was mine stays mine. Status quo ante bellum in the region. CourageousLife (talk) 02:19, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to avoid exchange with Bavaria in the Austrian region. Austria is very important to me. However I am willing to give the Tyrol area owned by me to Italy. I cannot give all of Aquitane; I'd like to keep the coastal area.

02:51, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I am not going to give Slovakia away for free.

~ Andrew

I don't want Slovakia from you.

03:11, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose Saxon Norway (which is, as Von says, practically undefensible) is a fair price to pay. I kept it for just such a bargaining situation. As it is my only real port (not in a colony) its loss will not doubt cause some unrest in the population, which will add plausibility to the post-war scene. Callumthered (talk) 09:44, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

These are just suggestions, I'm going for the areas which are difficult for a nation to defend like Saxon Norway which would swap hands. So Scraw I think keeping the coastal area in Aquitane is silly, as its difficult to defend and Aquitane is all but destroyed if you give the rest of it away. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:22, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Sine and I reached a decision. Angouleme for part of Baie d'Eric.

17:17, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

Filling in the tables
Hey okay I've added some tables for the nations which are listed as leaders in the war in the original algorithm. Please add in the relevant information to the table for your nations which are leaders in this war. '''DO NOT EDIT OTHER PEOPLE'S NATIONS IN THE TABLES! '''Note that this section is for discussions about the tables only. Save anything else for the other sections please or risk my wrath. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:47, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Can I just get out of this entirely? Delete me if possible. If not pull me out after one year. I no longer have a plausible motive and only joined my side because of urging from Wales (who then switched). So - let me know my options here. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:54, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sure I was wondering why you got involved, rather implausible. Edit your posts in game if you can to say that you never joined please. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:58, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I joined at the urging of Wales, as a favor to Wales, on the assumption that Wales was about to jump in on the Bavarian side. Had wales actually done that, it would have made a lot mor sense as I have a recent royal marriage to Wales. I was waiting for Wales to pull the trigger first but it got to be late enough in the day that I wasn't going to have time to post, so I had to shoot first out of sheer desire to get my post in before deadline. So I invented my story insteading of waiting on Wales - which of course blew up in my face when Wales switched. Commandante Lemming (talk) 19:02, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I totally deleted my last two years worth of posts. I don't have time to write at the moment, and there was nothing but war stuff there. 19:07, July 26, 2013 (UTC)Commandante Lemming (talk)

Von. I am only sending military aid. Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:24, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Land Requests
Pixel count must be properly calculated in order for land to be nessessarily divided up after the war


 * Also the Dimurats want Germany's Persian colony, The Levant wants the Adana territories, and Baghdad & Qoyunlu will split up Georgia, Armenia and co. between themselves. ~Von 13:52, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Land ceded.
 * I Would like Aquitaine, angouleme, Parts of German Canada a small territories in The antilles and some of German South america. If we win i would like to get those regions, and Lorraine should be a leader in the war. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 15:35, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bavaria will claim most of Austria as well as some of Poland, Nova Scotia and German luxembourg region Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk)
 * Prussia will claim it's rightful land of Danzig, Poland which shall be divided and the Germanic parts shall join with Prussia while the rest shall become a new protectorate and his Latvian territory which shall become our vassal, nothing else. Considering Russia has joined we would also like to claim their Baltic states.
 * Wales has claims on Korea and Hispaniola/the Bahamas. ~Rex


 * Switched sides.
 * If the Selk'nam get anything out of this, we merely wish to liberate the Inuit of Southern Greenland, who will become a vassal. Commandante Lemming (talk) 16:17, July 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Self retcon.
 * Ethiopia wants the Hispaniola, Phillipines, Newfoundland and Labrador. ~Viva
 * Gains depends on our winning percentage, but then depending on that Netherlands has certain claims: First Luxembourg and Gibraltar, and second (if is possible) part of Denmark, the small African colony of Saint John, and the colony of Greenland. --Quashi (talk) 19:02, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I already called Greenland
 * Can I have the souther half of Gibraltar, as it interferes with my Morocco colony? ~Rex
 * China has claims on the Philipines (told this to Rex earlier) CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 20:28, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I lay claim to Mysore and all of Brandenburg's German territories on the Indian sub-continent. I also lay claim to the Philippines due to the fact that it was originally my colony (along with Ethiopia). Although I would be willing to forfeit it if the Chinese and Ethiopians can sensibly share out the islands. I also lay claim to its North American colonies (apart from the Maritime colonies/Vinland). So, yeah. ~Imp


 * I can tolerate most of that, but you want what? Neu Berlin? That is ASB to the max. Besides, Andrew said he would reserve Neu Berlin-Vinland for me to play as if my government is completely defeated.
 * How? I am industrially more powerful, and my plans for the colony are really cool, like German boers and stuff... ~Imp
 * You have to sail around South America or Africa to reach it. I know you'll say I have to round Africa to reach my Indian and Pacific territories, but those can be managed via each other and the distance from Aquitane to Mysore is shorter than that of Orissa to Neu Berlin.
 * With significantly better ships at my disposal compared to yours, as well as a bigger fleet, more crewmen and a significantly bigger base.
 * Withdrew from war.
 * Italia lays claim to the Southern half of Gibraltar, the Chimu, Nya Syriac, Hispaniola as much of Central America as possible and the German Middle Eastern lands. Scandinator (talk).

Anatolian Revolution Question
Hey, i was wondering if since Anatolia was annexed after the Fail War if I could lead a revolution agasint the Italians, thanks.

DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:40, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

No you are already Korea. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:43, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

i havnt posted as Korea in a very long time. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 16:55, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

Okay everyone can I have some input to Dean's actions in having Korea be annexed by China. It doesn't seem right with me. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:16, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * China would have to want to do it and an algorithm would have to happen, you can't just surrender your nation away. You can't have your nation be annexed just because you want it to. Kunarian TALK 19:40, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same as above.I consider this metagaming.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:30, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, if Crim agrees to the outcome, we dont need an algorithm, its in the rules. DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 20:31, July 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dean is right about that part.
 * 20:33, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why not.

18:33, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

China would be okay with it, but the war was kind of unnecessary lol CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 15:05, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

I can understand Dean destroying his nation, that can be allowed. However what I don't agree with is Dean conducting revolts which should be reversed for a player to decide when to do with his own nation or via mod event. Dean has seemingly done either, so he lacks the authority to so. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:34, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Joining possibilities
Hello! I was wondering of I could join, technically way after the game has started, but still almost 270 years before the end of the game as either the Plains or River Lakota? Thank you! EiplecOco (talk) 03:03, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Yes you can Quashi (talk) 23:16, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can join, it isn't too late I joined PM I in 1900 and still hada blast!Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 23:21, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Freaking Crazy War
So, as some of you might know (or not, let's see who was paying attention), I was not here when the war started, and Scraw was supposed to post for me durring the time I was gone. However, he did not post for me, except to make my nation enter the war on Brandenburg's side. I would like to propose one of two options for my nation so that I can get back on track.

Option 1: Retcon my nation out of the war, since it wasn't my decision in the first place.

Option 2: Allow me to create an event within my nation to take it out of the war and restore it to status quo ante bellum.

Again, this wansn't my fault, and I want a chance to rectify the situation. Thank you.

CourageousLife (talk) 19:00, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to Courageous and hope he is allowed to pull out.

19:11, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

The Levantine Kingdom and Empire of Qoyunlu have no qural with the Mayans and will accept a peace treaty (we want some war reperations though).

However other nations may have qurals with the Mayans and not agree to this peace. So you have to convince them like you have sort of convinced me. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:28, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not looking for game talk right now, I need to know what can be done to solve this outside of the game, since the factors affecting this issue are outside of the game also. CourageousLife (talk) 19:31, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

As Prussia we could care less, let the peace happen, we've got bigger fish to fry. OOC I understand and Prussia will support you pulling out with very minor reparations. Kunarian TALK 21:56, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

I will support the Maya pulling out of the war. It limits the current complications. No reparations are necessary.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 22:31, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what exactly was posted about my nation, but I'm almost positive I haven't fought any of your nations directly, so I don't see the purpose of me paying you reparations. However, as long as it allows me status quo ante bellum, I'll accept it for now. CourageousLife (talk) 22:38, July 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * 'Tis why I said no repartations. You did not join, or fight of your own accord, ergo Bavaria accepts your exit free and clear.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 23:22, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Netherlands accept too (also, can we go back to the old 1 vs 1 war? this world wars are stupid) Quashi (talk) 23:47, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * You should pay the reparation of France, you invaded my nation's colony of Nouvelle bourgogne, i push you back but still. otherwise, i have no objection to your withdrawal. Sine dei gloriem (talk) 00:04, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I invaded Nouvelle Bourgogne. Also, I miss 1v1 wars and the such. The world is far too interconnected.
 * 00:08, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Pull out now and most of the Bavarian backed side will leave you be, besides the only important ones are the ones with land near you, and they've already agreed to leave you be. Kunarian TALK 23:30, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

(highlighting this so people take notice:) '''Also I'd like to point out that I've realised that whoever loses the war, who was involved in heavy fighting (this means Bavaria, Saxony, Brandenburg, Prussia, etc.), will have to deal with the fury of their own people afterwards. And it's even worse if a status quo is signed as then all nations involved in heavy fighting will face popular revolt and chaos. This is clearly a war that will shape the Europe and world to come, no matter who wins or loses. The following points only apply to these deep in the fighting nations. The losers will face anger from the common folk, and their perceived weakness will lead to colonial revolts and declarations of independence, it is likely that their nation will be truly torn apart from within rather than from without (or at least a lot of blood will be spilled to keep the current order). The winners will face support and happiness from it's common folk, and their perceived strength will help bind their empire together for years to come, helping them last like the OTL great Britain into the modern era, they shall enter a golden age once the shattered windows are remade and the men return to the fields. Both sides will face a swell of nationalisms. As peoples on the losing sides look to other peoples for blame and their hatred and fury brings the fires of nation state and independent pride into their hearts, their nationalisms will be more localised and not across the entirety of their nations. Those on the victors side will speak of the 'great deeds' of their nation and will speak with pride of their nation the strong, the powerful and the unconquered, their pride and joy will bring the fire of a greater nationalism into their hearts, their nationalisms will be more across the entirety of their nations rather than local. So much hinges on this war, so so much. If one side wins then the face of Europe will change and the rise of new empires will occur, if no sides win then Europe may fall into chaos and those far from the fighting will become the leaders of the world. This is a speech and a point, I think it is great to be involved in this turning point in time and I feel that for years to come people will look back on this vital point that changed the course of history. Kunarian TALK''' 23:42, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

This is why I'd like a status quo. It'll open the floodgates for change and let us try new things. Hell, we could advance the Revolution of 1848 to 1798 if we wanted. We should not fear change. It can be negative and positive. We should embrace change. Change is inevitable.

00:12, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

I officially declare Status Quo Antebellum with the nation of Brandenburg. There will be some that argue, but ultimately I am doing what I believe is best, this war started out bad, on both sides, and has only snowballed from there. Bavaria officially withdraws all troops pending Brandenburg doing the same. If there are nations that object, you may continue to fight, but I will not support you. Enough damage has been done, enough German blood has been spilled. All Germans are brothers. We will attempt to live in peace, and will only attack if provoked. Good Day.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 00:43, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * May I say you have only delayed the inevitable now, I know not what Scraw said to you but it is sad you would fall like this. I hope you remember to deal with the aftermath of this properly rather than pretend everything is roses and daisies. You may say German, but your Bavarians say Bavarian and they probably aren't very happy at all losing so many comrades, brothers, fathers and sons and for their government to declare them worthless, not even worth a small concession of land. You cannot buy back people's blood, I should hope you will create chaos in your nation with grace rather than wear blinkers and descend into the ASB of metagaming and pretend everything is fine. At least now my Prussians will know who to blame for the loss of their kin. Kunarian TALK 00:59, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is stupid. It is a damned if I do you damned if i don't. If I win, it is so narrow it won't matter. Same if he wins. NOTHING CHANGES. I attacked under the premise of him harming me or Saxony, which I found out through other sources, wasn't going to happen for now, it would evetually, but not now. Bavaria is Germany, Saxony, Brandenburg and Prussia is Germany. We are all German. We speak German, have the same past and religion. Of course things will not be rosey. But what you fail to realise is most of my nation didn't want to attack, again I was gouded into an attack, and was misinformed by Brandenburg's true intentions to Bavaria. That being said. I don't trust him. I am only withdrawing because in the end it changes little in Europe. Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 01:10, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not stupid. And metagaming is not the way to solve it. And we are not all German, Prussia soon will be throwing off the shackles you metagamingly seem so keen to attach to Bavaria. And Prussians do not speak German, especially considering the differences from OTL and we do not have the same past at all. And let me repeat though, it doesn't matter what you do with Scraw metagaming wise, you need to deal with the fact that you IC roused Bavarian nationalism to an all time high, broke a massively important alliance and fought a bloody war with Brandenburg and in the end declared a status quo. People are not going to be happy, at all. Do you think Bavarians who enjoyed relative stability would want to support a government that took it away and killed their brothers, fathers and sons in a war they ended for nothing? If anything I'd say you'd face a rebellion via the armed forces, and not one you could throw off either. But hey, don't worry because it is your nation and I doubt you will be stopped from being ASB. I think more alarmingly than anything it reveals that you are willing to end a war and betray allies IC because of metagaming. It ruins the game really. Kunarian TALK 01:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * IC: Brandenburg accepts the peace with Bavaria on all fronts and withdraws troops from Bohemia and northern Bohemia. These forces are redirected to fight in Austria and Prussia.
 * OOC: I agree with Andrew, I only wish that we could all establish a peace in our time.
 * 01:16, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * IC:that's funny, because as soon as peace is declared between you and Bavaria I'm gone too so those troops can go elsewhere. If one leader can get off scot free, so can I. Rules are being broken by others so shall I.
 * OOC: well that's nice metagaming, personally I've almost had enough of it. ruins the game. Kunarian TALK 01:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * The rules are that all leaders in a conflict must agree to a withdrawal from a leader on the opposing side. OTL Example: Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Scandinator (talk) 01:32, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well Guess what. I dont want it, he doesnt want it and majority of my allies dont want it. inculding Saxony. I was missinformed and cajoled into this war. I wont be apart of it anymoreTrust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 01:39, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * As a point of order I will not accept peace unless all my allies are assured the same.
 * ~ x
 * Since when does Prussia not speak German?
 * 18:44, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Callumthered (talk) 20:58, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Right then, seeming as Bavaria is pulling out I ask for Status Quo Ante Bellum too. There's no point continuing this madness. Kunarian TALK 01:57, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Scan: France, The Netherlands, Saxony, Bavaria, Prussia, have all agreed to it. I do not think it fair for me to still fight if Italia still wants to. I declared war, Scraw and I both agreed to antebellum, most of my allies agree. So as far as I can see ,it should still be allowed. Just because Italia or The Levant don't want to stop, shouldn't hinder the rest of us, if you want that land, form a seperate war. But I am done with this war. It has stressed me out, and has damaged Europe.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 02:10, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Brandenburg and co. accept the Prussian request. Troops are removed from Prussia and sent to fight France, the Netherlands, and Italia.
 * 18:44, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as i am aware all nations have pulled out, albeit grudgingly. I should have handled things differently, but what is done is done. ~Andrew

No that is just metagaming I shall not allow it. No real in-game reasons remain for this war to end. Its just you guys agreeing to it in the meta. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:52, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * So all we have to do is agree to a cease fire in game? CourageousLife (talk) 22:14, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, it has come to my attention that a ceasefire is not possible. I apologize to all my allies. I honestly wasn't thinking clearly. Any fault I take. I was a fool.Trust Me, I'm The Doctor (talk) 21:24, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

OK, if anyone wants to make peace in exchange for some small areas of land or money, be aware that these things are negotiable. I have already made peace with two of Von's nations, so if there are any other takers, drop a line on my talk page, cause some fronts of the war are really going nowhere.

22:25, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Technology
Is it possible for the Mayan Empore to send the River Lakota a water wheel in a trade, or at least possible to have the technology level 1 happen earlier for the River Lakota, considering their agricultural focus will put them ahead of the plains riding and not settle Plains Lakota? EiplecOco (talk) 15:16, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

No, we all have to follow the schedule set out in the industrialization tables, otherwise people might start getting cars in 1860 or something ridiciulous. No exceptions to the industrialization rules. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:37, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Alrighty, I understand and thank you for responding! EiplecOco (talk) 19:49, July 31, 2013 (UTC)