Talk:Saint Muhammad

Helping in the TL
I am very interested in this TL, and I think it has a lot of potential. May I help in it? Fedelede 23:18, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to help also. Kdavis005 23:49, November 26, 2011 (UTC) and if it is possible I can work on the Kingdom Tunsia (with Carthage as the captial) with a different type of Church called the Carthage Church if that is possible.


 * Uh, I'd rather have it Catholic or Orthodox and with Punic or a revived form of Phoenician as one of the official languages. not Arabic. Fed (talk) 00:46, November 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * How about the name called Punic Church or the Phoenician Church using those languages?? Kdavis005 16:59, December 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not too sure of the idea but go ahead (hopefully that might revive the Phoenician language). Fed (talk) 04:49, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

I would recommend asking Fed. :D Imperium Guy 00:16, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Turtledove has already done the same thing in his Agent of Byzantium series. Wagner1 20:26, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * The idea in Agent of Byzantium is about the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires holding power until the XIII Century. Here they lose influence throughout the VIII. I don't believe in that the Sassanids and Byzantines would survive much longer as major powers if Muhammad had becomen Christian, and I've always found Turtledove's stories extremely implausible, so I won't base this timeline in it. Fed (talk) 20:33, June 16, 2011 (UTC)



Hinduism
I would like to help in the hinduism part as I am a hindu. Would that be fine?? :D Imperium Guy 12:53, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but please don't turn Hinduism into the #1 RELIGIONZ EVAAA!!!!!!!!!! or anything like that, kay? Fed (talk) 21:39, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I know that Hinduism is only prominent in India and other south east countries. Minorities in other countries due to immigrants. :D Imperium Guy 12:53, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Also the Muslim countries east of Iran in OTL (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia) and the rest of South-East Asia (but the Phillippines) in TTL. The map shows my original idea for Hinduism. Of course, you can modify it as you see fit if you want to. Fed (talk) 13:49, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how to edit maps!! :/ The map there is what I was thinking it would be. The Phillipines also have a lage hindu population in OTL so I think it might be in the "hindu circle" as well maybe? :D Imperium Guy 18:26, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

About editing maps: it's pretty easy. I generally just use the paintbucket tool in pixlr.com (a free picture editing page) and sometimes, when I modify the borders, the paintbrush tool.

About Phillippines, okay. Also, I have an interesting question: What about Uyghuristan? It's crushed between the main religions in the Far East (Tengriism/Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Buddhism) and I'm not really sure about which religion should it have. Fed (talk) 18:57, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, most of China would be mainly Tengriism and Zoroastrianism but it seems like Uyghuristan would probably have a lot of Chistians and a fair bit of hindus. This is because in OTL it is mainly muslim but without Islam in this TL, it would be mainly christianity and a bit of hinduism. I would say this because the muslim preachers would probably preach christianity and there would be slightly more hindu influence. What do you think? :D Imperium Guy 19:08, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

BTW, does Nubia (guessing that is Britain) colonize India in TTL, because if it did, the whole "British Raj" would probably be one country, India or Hinustan because without Islam, no East or West Pakistan and with the majority of Burma hindus, they would want to stick around I would say. Your thoughts? :D Imperium Guy 16:14, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

{C I've got a kind of different approach to Uyghuristan planned now. Since I learned the Uyghurs converted en masse to Manichaeism (another religion) in ~800, I'll keep them like that (I'll have Uyghur and Kerait holy wars as TTL's Mongol Conquests or something). The Hindu parts will be those more influenced by Tibet (which might or might not practice "Tibetan Hinduism" with lama and everything but being more Hindu than Buddhist) whilst the north will remain Manichaeist, not Christian. What do you think? Fed (talk) 05:48, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Nubia is actually OTL Sudan, lol (I guess it's called the "United Kingdom because it was originally four countries). About Hindustan, yes, of course. I also agree with the Uyguristan idea. Fed (talk) 21:38, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Just a trivial question, what yould Britain be called, would it be something like the "Greater Isles"? Happy to see you like the Uyguristan idea (spelt it wrong on the map :/ ). :D Imperium Guy 21:57, November 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I actually have no idea, lol. Perhaps Albion or just plain ol' Britain? Fed (talk) 22:10, November 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe Great Britain? That's what the maps show when its not got the United Kindom written on it, lol. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 09:21, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Lol, perhaps... or Prydain (after the Welsh name, since I want for the Celts to have a stronger prevalence in Britain [Butterfly effect FTW, lol]). Also, I wondered if, besides the Hindustan idea, there could be a Parsi (Zoroastrian Indian) state somewhere in the Gujarati coast (it doesn't have to be independent, just a state of Hindustan) and a St.Thomas Church (Nestorians in India) around Goa or Chennai. Fed (talk) 19:52, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * More than possible that will happen. St. Thomas Church will be in the state of Goa. It is already a state in OTL (I suspect for the same reason ;). Chennai, I think would be a Union territory but the capital of Tamil Nadu, like the city of Chandigardh in India which is a Union territory as well as capital city for two states!! The Parsi state could also possibly exist. I would say it would have links to Iran because haven't they also got a Parsi population? :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 22:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Really? Heh, I thought Goa was a state due to it being formerly Portuguese, not religious... But yeah, of course, lol. The Parsi state could possibly form a crucial part in Sassanid-Hindu relationships as well... Fed (talk) 01:18, November 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, and that (Goa was a state due to it being formerly Portuguese). Goa is mainly Catholic in OTL. I agree to the Parsi state forming a crucial part in Sassanid-Hindu relationships. From what I know, India and Iran have pretty decent relations. Same here probably, lol!! Do you think Indochina would exist as an independant country or everything, or most things, which happened in OTL would happen? :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 22:31, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, BTW thaks for suggesting the map editing webside, this is the first map I have EVER edited and uploaded!! :D Imperium Guy 22:00, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yay. :P Fed (talk) 22:10, November 24, 2011 (UTC)

What effect would "no muslims" have on the crusades? :D Imperium Guy 15:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC

SM Ideas

Probably either no crusades at all. That or the Crusades being like the Fourth Crusade of OTL. This would probably end up in either the end or a temporary resurge of the Byzantine Empire. {C Fed (talk) 21:23, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Timeline
Here's the basic ideas for the Saint Muhammad timeline:
 * 610: POD. Muhammad begins preaching a new branch of Christianity.


 * He soon is able to gain a growing base of followers in Mecca which soon angers the Hedjazi tribal lords.
 * 615: Muhammad is killed in Mecca by an Umayyad-hired assassin. The Christian community, furious, flees to Medina where, with the help of the Jewish community there, they are able to form a standing army.


 * 621: the Medinans are able to take over Mecca after defeating the Hedjazi tribes near Jidda. The Empire of Mecca is established by Muhammad's child Fatimah. Article on Hedjazi War.


 * 630: Fatimah begins a campaign against the tribal kingdom of Kinda.


 * 631: Kinda and The Trucial states fall under the Fatimid army. Article on the Arabian Unification


 * 632: The Sassanid Empire gives the Lakhmid kingdom, Oman and Bahrayn to the Fatimids in return they attack Byzantium and Ethiopia (possibly done by Byzantium handing over the Lakhmid kingdom and Hira/Arabia Petræa). Fatimah, a devout Christian, rejects the offer. Treaty of Hila.

How does Muhammed take over Mecca after he as been killed? By the way, he should convert to Christianity in 610 (the year he converted to Islam) and he dies in 632 in real life. LurkerLordB 03:18, December 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * 635: Fatimah dies. Her son, 'Ali, agrees to the Sassanid deal and invades Byzantium (Persia). The Ghassanid (or Lakhmid) kingdom falls within days. article on Sassanid-Byzantine War of 635
 * Hila, Babylon and Fars (or Jeru salem, Palmyra and Petra) fall in May. The Perso/Byzantines, surprised by the fighting power of the Medinans, are forced to quickly withdraw.
 * 650: The War ends with the Treaty of Palmyra. All of Armenia is given to the winner whilst either Saba or southern Syria and parts of the Levant are given to the Medinans. 'Ali dies shortly afterwards under mysterious circumstances. The next claimant is Ali's cousin Zainab.
 * 652: The Sassanid Emperor Yazdegerd leads a campaign against Byzantium in order to continue the annexation/recover lost lands. However, he is killed by the Byzantine militia in the Battle for Trebizond. Emperor Constans II dies.
 * 653: Yazdegerd's child Peroz III succeeds, but, as he is very young, declares a regency by the Persian aristocrats, who decide to accord "everlasting peace and friendship" with the Byzantines, claiming "the wars have given us more good than harm". In it, Armenia and Aram are declared independent. This measure is extremely impopular both in Persia and Byzantium; however, both Peroz and Constans' son Konstantine are too young so to oppose the measure.
 * 665: Peroz banishes the aristocratic regency and declares the Treaty to be void. He soon amasses a huge army and marches on Armenia. However, an aristocrat, claiming descent from the Arsacid dynasty and support for the Christians in Persia, declares himself to be the rightful king of Persia, styling himself Arsaces LI. He soon amasses an army in Gombroon (Bandar 'Abbas).
 * 667: Peroz's army is forced to return from Armenia after the, a makeshift peace accord signed when the news of the War come to Peroz' knowledge. Peroz marches southwards so to attack Arsaces' army.
 * 668: Zainab dies and Ali's son Hussayn succeeds to the throne. He marries Shahrbanu, Peroz' sister. The Muhammadan-Sassanid ties forment the Medinan army to march easwards and meet Peroz' troops in eastern Mandaestan (OTL Khuzestan). A large battle is fought near OTL Shiraz, in which the Sassanid troops are defeated. Peroz is taken prisoner by Arsaces. The victory convinces fellow Arsacids in Armenia to invade Persia in Arsaces LI's favour.
 * 670: Konstantinos becomes of age to rule. Seeing that the other powers are distracted in the East, he invades Armenia. As it is entirely unprepared, huge amounts of territory fall.
 * 670: Konstantinos becomes of age to rule. Seeing that the other powers are distracted in the East, he invades Armenia. As it is entirely unprepared, huge amounts of territory fall.

Both were typos. Fed (talk) 03:55, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

OMG
I think I'm the timeline's newest fan. Do you have any future plans for this timeline? RandomWriterGuy 05:31, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, thank you. I'm planning on opening it a bit more to the public (but I'd rather finish the basic TL before actually creating more states). Fed (talk) 21:15, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Islam to Christianity
Here's a picture I want to show that I got from Wikipedia:

Is it possible that the areas shown in color (that represents the extent of Islam) be all be replaced with Christianity? (and when I mean all, I mean ALL)

RandomWriterGuy 05:07, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

All except the areas of hinduism shown on the previous maps. :D Imperium Guy 07:45, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Uh, no, not at all. Nothing east of Iran (except for some cities) are Christian. Fed (talk) 17:08, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

You may be wrong though. The Mognol invasions would occur as in OTL, right? And in OTL, Tamerlane, one of the last Mongol conquerors, converted to Islam in Persia. Is it possible he may be converted to Christianity instead? And spread that religion to other parts of Asia along with his desendents? (Like Babur who conquered India in OTL). RandomWriterGuy 03:54, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK Tamerlane was born a Muslim. And Persia is in TTL. Plus, I doubt everything will be exactly like OTL (with only replacing "Islam" for "Christianity"). Remember, the locals had their own religion befofe the advent of Islam. Fed (talk) 04:02, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Well, we do know about the size of Tamerlane's empire, right? Then in this timeline, he is born a Christian. And creates an empire the size of the OTL Tamerlane empire and spread the religion as he did. Does that work?

RandomWriterGuy 05:26, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want for all of the world to be Christian. Fed (talk) 05:39, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I not trying to say that (and I am sorry if I do). I'm just saying that Tamerl ane's empire might spread that religion to the areas it conquered (including India). RandomWriterGuy 05:50, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

But I don't want Tamerlane to spread Christianity to Persia and India. Bukhara and Samarkand already will have high Nestorian populations as will China, and the Kerait Mongols will be Christian. I think that's enough Christianity for the East. Fed (talk) 05:55, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

I like where this timeline is going so far. As for the Tamerlane issue, it's really a matter of history. If Mesopotamia is conquered by any christian state, then the Sassanid Empire, the main Zorostrainist state would look weaker and a conqueror like Tamerlane might seek to affiliate himself with a "stronger" faith. If not, he's probably a Zorostrain.

Also, this seems a bit random, but where do the Khazars come into this? Their empire could have significant affects on other states. Michael Douglas 03:28, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

I have Sassanid influence into the Gökturk khanate causing Khazaria to split and spread west and south.

Mesopotamia willmprobably remain Christian, but Parsistan's and Persia's influence won't decline hence Timur is a Zoroastrian. Fed (talk) 04:49, December 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * With all the butterfly-effect changes that go on because of this POD, it's more than likely that Timur himself would not be born. (Though it would be very plausible to have other, similar Central Asian conquerors of various faiths.) Benkarnell 05:29, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mongol Legacy on Christians
We all know that the Mongols (Genghis Khan) are going to come barging in just as they did in OTL. However, how much influence or effect will they have on Christianity? RandomWriterGuy 01:42, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry about the rollback, it was an accident.
 * About the Mongols, they will probably go on a path similar to OTL (settle down in the regions and later convert to the local religions). Do remember though, most OTL leaders and events won't be like those in TTL due to the butterflies.
 * Some Naimans, Ongud and Kerait, already Nestorian, will integrate into the Aramaic terriories around OTL Baghdad. They will bring Mongol influence into the language and religion. While some/most of the settlers remain speaking Turkic languages, many will adopt their own dialects of Aramaic (known as "Neo-Imperial" due to it being born during the Mongol Empire) and turn into part of the ruling caste of Aram.
 * Other Mongols, especially the Manichaeistic Uyghurs, will decide to settle among the Manichaean communities in the Sassanid Empire, mostly concentrated in eastern and southern Persia. These will also bring Uyghur influence into the local languages, and will soon become the ruling caste of the Manichaean communities.
 * In the north, Nestorians will be "Uralicized" by the Uralic tribes, with a Golden-Horde like government partially overrunning Rus'.

I'll write more later. Fed (talk) 03:20, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Do remember though, the Mongol conquests will be closer to a migration and not to an actual conquests. There will still be wars and the likes, but it will be more peaceful.

Whoever created this ATL, I must strongly disagree with you. You really can't have a plausible explanation for Muhammad to change to Christianity. Islam said he met God/Allah, and that God/Allah sent numerous revelations to him. No offense though. I respect your ideas and I am not trying to start a religious-based schism. Scrawland Scribblescratch 03:16, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad saw an angel, not God himself, according to the Quran- and really, what Muhammad saw in what may have been (no offense intended) an epilepsy-based hallucination, and the fact that Islam and Christianity are highly similar... I believe Muhammad's views could've easily be considered Christian with only small changes since it's an altogether new branch of Christianity and all. Fed (talk) 03:58, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Add to that that what Islam's core beliefs and original ideas are very similar to Christianity, and that much of what is associated with the religion today is actually the culture of the small tribes of Arabia, and was added to the religion long afterwards. Lordganon 08:43, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

America
Okay, so, before I forget my ideas for America, I'll place them here.


 * Smallpox outbreak? I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I really, really don't want to have the smallpox outbreak be as strong as it is OTL. Therefore, I'm having the pagans, and not the Christians, be the primary conquistadors. Since it was the pagans who brought the smallpox inocculation west, the Americas will boast of being the first continent to have a large amount of inocculated people. This will lead to a far larger amount of indigenous people and nations - Instead of a mostly white and African Western Colombia, we'll have a confederation of several indigenous tribes named Kindiyo (after the Quimbaya word for "paradise", a white and mestizo Cundinamarca will become Muisca and Quechua Kuntur Marqa, and most of the coast will become Tayronistan. However, there will still be large white minorities in the countries and two colonial nations - the Phoenician Qart Hadasht (New City) and Greek Basileia (Royal Palace). The territories will still be colonized but the conquest will be more pacific.


 * POD in the Americas? So to add more of a butterfly effect in America, I'm thinking about a second, minor POD in Mesoamerica. Right now, my favorite contestants are:
 * Jun Ujol Chaak of Tikal conquers Clakmul and Caracol leading to a unified Mayan Empire (Mayastan?) in 679
 * Teotihuacan doesn't collapse due to civil unrest in the 750s?
 * the Quimbaya cacicazgos unify leading to a contesting nation to the Muisca Confederation and the establishment of more advanced civilisation in Colombia?

That's it for now: I'll add more later. Fed (talk) 19:42, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I would think that these I Ideas are good for America in general. I think the Aztecs should occupy around the same area as OTL Mexico. For North America, we should have the northern fringes as an Inuit nation (I am guessing they will also be inocculated) and the rest one great nation (excluding the Aztecs), including the tribes and white immigrants to North America. What do you think? :D Imperium Guy 19:57, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I actually would prefer the Aztecs to only rule part of Central Mexico (XE1) together with the Toltecs and the Teotihuacan Civilization, or might form the Nahua Federation or Mexico with the Toltecs. the Mayans to the south and other tribes across Mexico (map coming soon). The Uto-Aztecan nations can partially form some sort of Federation of Aztlán. The Otomi and Totonacan languages will have their Mixtec, Zapotec, and Teotihuacan nations. (once again, more to come) Fed (talk) 20:15, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Fair point. What about my ideas for the rest of North America? :D Imperium Guy 21:24, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really agree to it due to the sheer amount of divisions between the Native American tribes, although something could be reached in some way. Fed (talk) 01:37, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Con mis fuerzas casi extintas a vasto imperio llegué!

Puse pié en tierra de Incas, o sea,

Hice h-inca-pié!

-

Somos los Incas,

Un pueblo Inca-nsable,

Nuestras riquezas son todas Inca-lculables,

Abominamos de Inca-utos e Inca-paces,

Pero nuestras canciones son todas Inca-ntables!

(From the Argentinian bandles Luthiers (speed to ~8:40 for the song, the whole story is worth watching though; Kath y otros hablantes de español, ustedes entienden esto mejor xD)

... Anyways... I've been thinking about this, and I'll establish a basic point for America.

I've decided that the POD in the Americas will be Jun Ujol Chaak's; A unified Maya empire will then bring organisation via expeditions and trade to the southern Colombians in Kindiyo and will partially counterbalance the Aztecs and Incas. The butterfly would eventually expand throughout the Americas.

Anyways, fast-forwarding a few hundred years, the discovery of the Americas (I have no idea how they will be named in TTL) will probably be brought on by an European trying to find India without paying tariffs in Aram. Same with the Persians trying to go west.

The first area to be discovered will probably be either Kindiyo and Basileia (Venezuela), followed by most of Mexico.

The Inca empire will be among the last to be discovered and among the most hardly hit with the smallpox outbreak, although it will near entirely stop after the Mazdakists, also pre-Communists, reach in and innoculate everybody due to the political similarities.

This really shames me on saying, but I realized my Mayan and Incan empires are very similar in plan from that in Superpowers. The influence will be very loose; the Mayans will be thecnocratic and have a huge lifespan, and the Incas will be communist (although this is an OTL fact in the Incas' case).

Now, let's go back across the Pond and think about the British Isles and the Middle East. You guys (if any of you is reading this xD) must be thinking: "why did Fed suddenly become more implausible in this timeline?". Well, the answer is, I've run out of ideas. The Gardens of Babylon, trade problems and stuff are a way to let the Middle East chill out after such a quick succession of wars and help Byzantium recover.

I started with the British Isles TL, although now I think it's a bit too exaggerated. I need some help with the Saxon conquest of the British Isles (although the main localised POD [not for the TL but influenced by the Middle East's] will still be Cadwallon's victory over the Northumbrians).

I'll, as always, write more about this later. Fed (talk) 20:46, February 1, 2012 (UTC)