Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''
 * Erm...when and why did the Newfoundland nation become Scandinavian, why isn't the other one shown as German?

Moderators
AP has raised a valid point. Gala and Pita have left the map game. Crim and Lurker post extremely irregularly. Only Collie, Yank, Von and myself post every turn. Mods are disappearing left right and center and without proper control this game will fall apart. I propose the election of at least one new mod, the removal of Pita and Gala from the mod list and the election of a new mod-in chief. Also Collie, I can start making maps again for the 1585 turn and onwards, no holidays for at least another 6 months :( Scandinator (talk) 05:28, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I dont know how far this will get(with the whole russia fiasco and all), but i propose my candidacy. Well, in any case, you can't get anywhere if you dont try-Lx (leave me a message) 05:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want it to sound like i brought that point up just to run for mod, but I too would like to announce my candidacy. And, I would like to see either Collie or Scan as moderator-in-chief.AP (talk) 05:41, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I propose myself as moderator, as I have given up my country and therefore would be probably the least biased if two mods went head to head (or players). Saamwiil, the Humble 15:09, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to propose myself a moderator too. Despite the Caliphate fiasco I promise to be unbiased (and educate the country and steal its money :P) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

This is a good idea, my interest has simply waned to the point in which I can't act as head mod. I'm glad to have been able to get this very successful game started, but I know that I can't devote enough time to this wiki to act as head moderator anymore. Sorry for the trouble, I'll still post as much as I can remember to. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:30, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

It's alright, DK reached the same point last game and resigned as well. I hope you can remain a regular participant in this game. Also on a side note, COLONIZE! Scandinator (talk) 03:45, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

I've just been wrapped up in ten metric tons of horseshit IRL, combined with lack of motivation. Same thing happened around this point last game. I'll become a regular poster again sooner or later. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:48, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Mod Elections
For a Mod to be elected, he must have 5 votes (may vote any number of times). Only one vote for Moderator in Chief. You may also vote against. If you decide to do so, bold your name. Elections for new mods never closes. If one of the candidates for moderator in chief has a 4 vote lead by end of day, he gets the title.

Collie

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) AP (talk) 18:57, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Scandinator (talk) 00:41, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Scan

 * 1) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST)
 * 3) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) --Yank 22:52, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

VonGlusenburg

 * 1) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Saamwiil

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) AP (talk)
 * 4) Airlinesguy (talk) 00:02, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) (DeanSims: Talk) 21:48, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:32, January 15, 2013 (UTC) (voted after closed)

AP (mod now)

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC) (+)
 * 2) --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2013 (UTC) (+)
 * 3) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)(+)
 * 4) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST) (+)
 * 5) AP (talk) (+)
 * 6)  [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! (-)
 * 7) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) -Lx (leave me a message)
 * 9) The Royal Guns (talk) 20:01, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Fed (mod now)

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 20:11, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST)
 * 3) Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:26, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

LxCaucassus

 * 1) -Lx (leave me a message)
 * 2) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:16, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) CourageousLife (talk) 00:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Scandinator (talk) 01:04, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Are we allowed to vote for ourselves? ~AP

Saam, you can't vote thrice. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:10, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Read the instructions. And yes, one can vote for himself. Saamwiil, the Humble 19:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

You voted THRICE. The rules say TWICE. Take off one of your votes. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I meant any number of times, but if you want to be a stickler on language, fine, I'll take one off. Also, unless anyone votes against him, AP is a mod.  Saamwiil, the Humble 19:24, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

If you think about it, that makes no sense. If I wanted to be "biased" I would have to be a mod first. I have never been biased in any game, others see it as bias because they don't like it simply put. But it's ok, I get it; I would have done the same(for different reasons) had you run.AP (talk) 19:36, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I get your point, and I assume you understand mine. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:42, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I've taken it upon myself to change it to what I originally meant. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, you wrote the rules for this? Now I understand what you mean. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 20:13, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I did. I meant any number of time because I thought the modship wouldn't be limited to incoming member because of space limitability but because of their quality, so if people vote for you. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:32, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Somebody forgot to put my name onto the list, so I did it-Lx (leave me a message) 21:13, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Is the voting over? Exactly how many mods are to be admitted?AP (talk) 22:56, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Not limited. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:17, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Voting should have a definate end time. It is the responsibility of the mod-in-chief to identify players that would do well as a mod and ask them to take up the role. Not vote spamming up to 5. Otherwise unworthy or unproven players my take the role of mod. In my opinion Lx, AP, Fed and Kogasa are the best candidates for a new position. Scandinator (talk) 06:05, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I understand this voting is going to end when 24 hours since the adding of this section end.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:34, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, one day has already passed, but what that 4-vote lead that you was talking about means? this means that we have to make another election to elect the mod-in chief (Scan has 4 votes, while i have 2.i understand that for a 4-vote lead to happen, he would have to have 6 votes, and i 2, for example.) or Scan already won?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:40, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

So as I see, Fed, AP and I are mods, the moderator-in-chef will arise, yes when there is a 4 point lead. Currently, it is 5 to 3. A moderator in chief isn't as urgent as new moderators, hence takes longer. People can switch around their vote for the better good if it takes too long. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:13, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Voter bribery? I don't approve of these sort of actions. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:20, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Saamwill, the requirements of modship include that you have not expanded implausably in the last fifteen turns. If I recall, the Caliphate was in the middle of invading frigid Russia at the time and annexing nations left right and center. Scandinator (talk) 00:30, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Where on earth did you just pull those "rules of modship" out of? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:42, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Taken from the Principia Moderni II Rules Moderator Requirements section:

So he pulled it from the rules page.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:12, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not having expanded implausibly for fifteen turns, as determined by other moderators.
 * Played for at least thirty moves.
 * Must use a user account for most of their edits.
 * Must be active at least six days a week on average.
 * Ah okay, its just that I never noticed that before. Thanks Lx. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:42, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

As determined by other mods. That is a very wide spectrum of possibilities, and probably needs to be further defined in the future. There's probably deffering opinions about what was plausible. And in that scenarion, Fed wouldn't be a mod eaither, so I don't believe that is applicable. I suggest for future entrances into modship, we take that off, as if you are voting for them to become mod, they're probably a plausible sorts. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:50, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Saam, I put my vote in before you "closed" the voting. Check the history. You can't just eliminate my vote because you're desperate to be a mod. And I thought elections for new mods "never closes" because that's what you wrote at the top. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:15, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, you were 32 minutes late as of day close. And I was taking it that there was a consensus that it should only be a day. As you may see above I didn't argue against it when Collie suggested it, so I'm not taylor making this situation. Saamwiil, the Humble 12:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * >.> Just do me a favor and check the history. I can always prove it to you via screenshots. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:48, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Can I also ask why people are voting for a head mod who was banned unanimously in the previous game and still continues to do these same offences in this game! E.g. in Venice's latest post he is controlling Switzerland so that the south of the nation wants to join his Venetian league. Not to mention he seems perfectly willing to allow Dean to take over Greece as the Ottoman empire, providing Venice gets a part; even though an Ottoman-Venetian alliance is highly implausible considering the past 100 years of war! Not to mention that Scan is not as active as Collie. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:42, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

I nominateth you for head mod. You are level headed and capable of making good end-of-the-line decisions. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:48, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Von, you are digging up things from a year ago. Last year I had a lot of pressure on me from home and school for the college admission tests not to mention my family life was also highly unstable since my parents argued over every little thing. I had several nervous breakdowns, a lengthy bout of depression ending in attempted suicide and permanently injured my right hand. So happy now that you know the reasons for my irrational behaviour on PMI?

Anyways the post I made on Switzerland is in line with the rules:

''For non-player nations (who are not controlled by a user), you may do the following. However, these must be dealt with carefully and plausibly:'' Venice is encourging the various cantons of Switzerland to move closer to Venice and is turning the Kappelist population back to Catholics. And how is an alliance with the Ottomans improbable? Foreign policy of the Republic is dictated by the Doge, if he wants an alliance he will get it. Of course there will be public opposition which may flare up... But at the current state of affairs, Venice has lost all its Greek forts used for trade with the Levant and Asia and needs to regain Greece and its isles, otherwise the Venetian economy will die like OTL. So it is either Venice invades Greece alone or with a local land power backing them. And honestly, I don't really care who becomes the new mod-in-chief so longs as we get one soon. Scandinator (talk) 00:39, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sign treaties, agreements and alliances.
 * Encourage the government of that country to make certain choices.
 * Create ideas among the common people.

If elections for new mods never closes, can we put up some moer candidates? Because I have some people in mind...

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:18, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Well I think we only need to replace the mods we are losing/lost. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:42, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, only three of these four mods should be accepted. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:33, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ammendments
Something I propose to you to make the game better: Nations that are close enough to each other in culture and geographival means or in dynastic unions be considered one. Hence, the Caspian states just appear as Caspia, and Scandinavia just appears as Scandinavia, and if Russia ever emerges they are just counted as Russia.

Also, arguing makes games not so fun, especially when you have to do it continuously. I suggest in discussion on a certain topic, you put 2 sections for it, 'argument for' and 'argument against', or whichever names are appropriate for the scenario. Then let the mod(s) decide which case is correct. This saves a lot of time and unnesessary arguing, considering a lot of us just argue the same point over and over and over... again.

Thirdly, the idea of 'Player Consulation'. This is where a mod starts a discussion about a mod event in which he plans to do, say, 2 turns in advance. This would keep gameplay flowing and not be such a shock to players when their nation just gets invaded by mod events, and people will be alot less frustrated. (Algeria, Russia, Caspia, etc.) Let me know what you think. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:19, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

so, wait, the fisrt thing does it mean that if moscow and Novgorod, and other russian states aided each other in a war, it would just be counted as one russia(aka4 points)? if so then I disagree.-Lx (leave me a message) 16:00, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I would propose ammending coalition alogrithms, so that it is harder to take over multiple nations. in other words, The caliphate treated the Russian States as one nation. They got 33%, and decided that it was OK to take over 4+ nations. I suggest using the old system from PMI that used to be used to determine the ammount of territory you need to take over a nation as a function of how many nations are invading.(the one that was originaly used to decide that 33%= win by one natoin.). It should have been formulated by DK during the invasion of the mughal empire. Basicaly, to take over a 2 states with a coalition, it will be harder than to take over one state with a coalition(33% for one, 50% for 2, I think 66% for 3 etc...)-Lx (leave me a message) 16:04, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm saying if Moscow and Novgorod were in a Federation, because of their geographic, cultural, linguistic etc. similarities, they'd be treated as one (Russian Federation). However, if they are not one, then they would still count as different contries. Hence, Scandinavia is one while if Burgudy helped France, they'd be seperate. But Caspia would be one. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:08, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Then you'd just have no one forming federations but large alliances instead. Not to mention alliances of smaller nations would gain an unfair advantage against larger nations. As for the coalition algorithm changes, 33% is fair considering nations in that coalition contribute to that coalition total. Plus it too creates an unfair advantage to alliances of small nations, e.g. if Novogorod tries to invade two small city states who are allied, then why should Novogorod need more of a point total to do the exact same thing which is easier to do with two separate algorithms? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:10, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

1.5?
Can I get a list of states with the 1.5 bonus right now? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:12, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

All states with this bonus haven't 5 years of existence.as such, all states created from 1577 on by popular revolt have this bonus.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:57, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Granada and co
Total: 56 x 1.5 = 84
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Granada (L), Scandinavia (M), Luxembourg (S), Aragon (M), Brandenburg (M), Burgundy (M), Calais (MV), Austria (S), Salzburg (SV), Grissons (SV) = 24/4 = 6
 * Military Development: 26
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 433
 * UTC Time: 1737
 * 1*7*3*7 = 147
 * 433/147 x pi = 9.253...
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Morocco
Total: 29 x 1.5 = 43.5
 * Location: 4 (Rabat is all the way over there)
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground, they are being invaded by the coast and Fez is almost 600 m high)
 * Strength: Morocco (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 5/2 = 3
 * Economy: 5/2 = 3
 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = =3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
84/127.5 - 0.5 x 2 = 0,31764705882352941176470588235294

Granada can take 31,4% of Moroccan territory.

Discussion
You have to have a -10 nation age to use this bonus.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:29, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Burgundy
Total:
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Burgundy (M), Calais (MV),Friesburg (MV),Munster(MV), = 13/4 = 3
 * Military Development: ??? (you cant upgrade military, economy and infrastructure all in one turn. It's one a turn)
 * Economy: ???
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 1951
 * UTC Time: 0119
 * 1*1*2*2 = 4
 * 1951/4 x pi = 1532,266625
 * Nation Age: +5 (I think)
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-4

Inca
Total: 32
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: inca (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 2 = 0
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 6
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
((76/(76+42)*2) - 1 = 28.81%

how much does it last

Discussion
did i do something wrong

This is metagaming and will not happen. You saw all the planning of the Incan invasion and decided to jump in before anyone else could now did you?AP (talk) 01:31, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

You also tried this with the Aztecs, and the answer is the same--not happening.AP (talk) 01:36, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

were you invading the inca's ? i didn't knew, and i've been already planning it from before, but i had to prepare for the conflict, and the Aztecs had a reason, they were isolated, the inca's are at my hand because of that i control Panama so its going to Happen if you want or not Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:32, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

"Scandinavia builds up its military and economy. Infrastructure is built up, connecting provincial capitals with the rest of the country. Nya Danmark expands by 2100 sq km. Expeditions from Africa and Asia return, with news of Japan, the civil disarray in India, and the return of a Christian nation in East Africa."

i thought we could, oh well Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:40, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Another Resignation
I'm sorry I was gone for a few days, or else I'd have done this sooner. Never mind the shark, this game has jumped the whale, hopped the Kraken, and is currently cartwheeling over a smallish landmass the size of Canada. The formation of the Caliphate (Hence forth referred to as the 'shark), the existence of said Caliphate for 100 years despite various cultural and religious differences within it (Hence forth referred to as the 'whale'), the annexation of- well, of most to Eurasia (Hence forth referred to as the 'Kraken'), these could all have been recovered from. In fact, I'd argue that the shark and whale added some more excitement to the post Great Holy War (Hence forth referred to as 'Yes, it was plausible- ever heard of the crusades?')(just kidding, actually it will be referred to as 'GHW'), just as the Dual Khanate was falling and we were all failing to do anything about that. The Kraken was, I feel, majorly implausible, but again, could have been recovered from.

The subsequent breakup- especially the events around Russia (hence forth referred to as the 'not-so-smallish-landmass' ) the thing that really screwed this game up, for me anyway. I have a feeling that if more mods had been around, the argument wouldn't have resolved itself as it did, with a declaration of God and Alien Space Bats from Von. But I don't want to restart this argument- I don't care any more- and I bear no animosity to those who sided against me.

All metaphors over now.

Russia is hardly a cancer to this game. The true cancer was the breakup of the Mahdiate; not really anyone's fault. To those who disagree with me; kindly shut up.

I'll post the last message in 1581, stating that the Grand Duke of Muscovy now dies, heirless, so the Muscovian government asks for annexation by Novgorod.

I'll be back for PMIII, when it rolls around, sooner or... well, it might be later, though I rather doubt it. Still, the appointment of new mods might get you through this.

In conclusion, ladies, gentlemen, assorted mods, please, do not be too rough on the newly humbled state of Russia. It is a reminder of that long ago (read; a month) time when men were men, war was war, and Principia Moderni II was a plausible map game.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:22, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Portugal
Total: 66,5
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Portugal (L+4), Scandinavia (S) = 6/4 = 1.5
 * Military Development: 12
 * Economy: 10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 3613
 * UTC Time: 21:06
 * 2*1*0*6 = 12
 * 3613/12 x pi = 945,8811881183269142137942119824
 * Nation Age: +5 (1385)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1

Castille
Total: 27 or 36
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: Castille (L +4) = 4 = 0
 * Military Development: 0/3
 * Economy: 0/3
 * Infrastructure: 0/3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: -5 (1230)
 * Population: 7+2 = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
It will depend if Castille can receive NPC bonus.

In case their score is 36:

66,5/102,5 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,2975609756097560975609756097561

Portugal can take 29,7% of Castillian territory.

In case their score is 27:

66,5/93,5 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,42245989304812834224598930481283

Portugal can take 42,2% of Castillian territory.

Discussion
The 0/3 on the military/economy and infrastructure sections for castille is because i'm not sure if the NPC bonus count, as Castille technically, still has a player.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Add me on for supplies.AP (talk) 07:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Castile should've broken up by now because it had no player for X years. I don't understand how the mods overlook these things. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:37, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Technically/Nominally, they have a player, but he doesn't post since so much time, that he should have been condsidered inactive a long time ago.Which is where the problem with the bonus arises.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:54, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well just because a player leaves doesn't mean there nation should always be broken up. I mean the England break-up seemed a bit daft to me for one. But anyway, yes they should have lost their player colour & change to NPC status a while ago. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:30, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Really. the only nations which should have broken up from them were Wales and Cornwall. A beter option would be the nation entering into a civil war just like the one in France and then reestabilizing again.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:00, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

The Mayan empire
I think we need to do something about the Mayan empire. I think it has expanded too rapidly and should be hit with another disease outbreak in which it looses its empire's furthest territories. (e.g. its Calfornian colonies, northern mexico, costa rica, etc.). What do the other mods think? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:59, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to make a few Indian Revolts. They are most certainly angry, and they seem almost absent. But I think the Mayans should weaken anyways because of disease. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:14, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think "weak because of the plague" is true because, remember, it's been three generations since the Maya were exposed to smallpox. Fed (talk)

What about measles, pox, plauge, etc. Or an assassination and civil war? Anyways what is more concerning is the fact that Dean is allowed to control SIX independent nations. I believe the mods should convene about that. ~Scan

Measles, pox and plague were all introduced with smallpox. I could see civil war working but we really have to stop using "king dies heirless" as a collapse idea because it really isn't that much of a thing. A civil war, yes, but eventually a pretender will rise out most likely. Fed (talk) 01:38, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Who said the king dies heirless? It could be the siblings of the heir struggling for power... Scandinator (talk) 03:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well, what I meant is that every collapse reason until now is "succession struggles" which almost always doesn't result in national collapse. It's okay now and then but not every single collapse. Fed (talk) 03:29, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

How about a new wave of disease causes the other peoples the Mayans rule over to revolt and break away. Remember that the player for the Mayans is still playing, we just need to reel in his implausible expansion. Remember when the Europeans came to the Americas, native states like the Maya are meant to weaken not strengthen! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:44, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Talking about the map, next time when you edit the map, please stop adding a color to the Miskitos.they haven't got a player.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:15, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * In my defense, I did cease all expansion when I got hit with the plague the first round. In OTL, the Mayans and the Incas were both conquered by the Spanish. In this timeline, no one was interested, and instead gave me technology. True, I have probably been expanding a little implausibly. Let me tell you why though. A while back, the mapmakers wouldn't post my expansion for turns on end. So I just added it myself. No one would answer my questions as to a limit for expansion, so I just did my best  to make it as plausible as possible. If you guys have a problem with my plausibility, just tell me. I'm dissapointed that I had to find this myself instead of someone coming and confronting me first. I will stop expanding so much, but only if it's added to the map like it should be. Otherwise, I have to do it myself, or it will never get done. CourageousLife (talk) 19:58, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully, I won't have to edit the map next time. In case I do, I'll be sure to remember that. CourageousLife (talk) 23:57, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well then we'll just have some territory lost you have more plausible borders then. Which is basically what we are doing now. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:26, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

I have tried really hard to stay in the lines in reguards to plausibility. In this case, it was an honest miscalculation that wouldn't have happened if it was represented correctly on the map. I will gladly submit to a period of limited to no expansion to make up for the error, which is the solution that I'm asking. But I need to know, what would my borders look like in the case that you did sieze some of my territory, and how long would it take to reaquire it after it was taken from me? CourageousLife (talk) 04:14, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay here is a map of how it'd look afterward. A famine or plague or something causes a lot of the northern territories to be abandoned. Then some revolt happens, Mayans sell some colonies to help fund the war and they win the war. Only 3 states revolt away in the south with some civil disarray which you can reconquer too. Sell at least 1 colony but you don't have to sell them all, just the 1. The break away states can only be retaken via war and you can expand as normal to retake the abandoned land following a 3 year wait to make sure the land is safe again. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 04:56, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

The abandoned territory in the north or in the south? CourageousLife (talk) 05:01, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

The North, it has gone back to being black. Compare this map with the 1580 map and tell me what you think. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 05:04, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

It's reasonable. The black land in the north, I think I'm just going to sell. CourageousLife (talk) 05:12, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, I'll just let it go back to black. CourageousLife (talk) 13:49, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Dean's six nations
The rules of the game clearly state that one is only allow to have one independent nation and can control others via, puppet regimes, unions or vassalizations. Dean has none of these for Greece, Albania, Montenegro, Sibir or Serbia. I propose a moderator vote to either set a precedent and allow everyone multiple nations or abide by the rules and leave Dean with the Ottoman Empire and the Crimean Khanate.

More than one nation allowed

 * If that nation is a successor state of your nation (like break-away colonies or break away states) then I say okay. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:49, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Only one independent nation per player until colonies revolt

 * Scandinator (talk) 01:00, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fed (talk) 01:38, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * AP (talk) 05:59, January 15, 2013 (UTC) I like this. This is democracy, see how much better we're doing already?(the vote, not what we're voting on)

NPC But player controlled flavour

 * Only if you used to control it. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:51, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Another mods-only vote, eh? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 01:17, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

lol facepalm... Sine dei gloriem (talk) 01:20, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Well I think he should be allowed to chose which nation he wants to control for starters. Anyway he used to control that territory when it was in the Caliphate so falls under the same jurisdiction as a successor state / controlling break away colonies. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:41, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Have you noticed how differently controlled each nation is, im doing it right, its not like I was making them all become one big alliance then sure, but how is adding more detailed posts bad for the game, I see no crime in it. (DeanSims: Talk) 02:38, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Von, key word being used to. The Caliphate's in disarray, everything's broken apart, and these Balkan states who have for centuries Christian are now free from the Muslim regime. I highly doubt they would accept being under the control of Anatolia willingly. ChrisL123 (talk) 02:40, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Just saying there is a clause in the basic rules that goes as follows: " Each player will "call" a nation, one nation per player. Until decolonization" Scandinator (talk) 03:32, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Since I like compromise: Dean may post as them, as he used to control them, but they are treated as NPCs because that's what they truly are, and therefore are hit by mod event as NPCs. This would hence imply that he does not control the foreign relations of each country, but may add internnal flavour and have them work on their military et cetera. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:54, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Chris he is treating them as separate countries, i.e. the Greeks and Ottomans haven't agreed to join up or anything. They are different nations and he is treating them like that. They are not under Ottoman control, simply just Dean's rule.

Scan, he used to control those territories, they've now broke away as separate nations. Everyone did this in PM1. You are allowed to control break away nations. The fact that he is demanding more nations which the Caliphate used to control is sign of compromise already. So unless people are trying to control break-away nations & colonies (like Dean is trying to do now) then they can't control multiple nations. Futhermore in the rules it says the following: "Bordering nations may gain independence at any time. Colonies may gain independence beginning in 1776. Players may add a quarter turn per year and keep alliance with the first nation, or add a half turn and break alliances. Players may also decide to relinquish control over the independent state and come back to it later, although standard expansion rules apply. After thirty years, the number of turns doubles for an independent nation." Is that not what has happened? Is that not what me, Fed & Saam all did and that was allowed?

And Saam that is already what is sort of happening. But he does have control of their external affairs. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:26, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

No, the breakaway colonies are different to the issue at hand. Anywyas the conflict has been resolved. Dean is to get 1.5 bonus on his algorithm for the next 15 years in the Balkans as the Ottoman Empire. Scandinator (talk) 15:38, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Since when has a democratic process more important than your back-handed deals? Plus read what I actually put! Bordering nations may gain independence at any time. You completely ignored my argument in hope that you can now get Venice some territory back in Greece. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:46, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Von. Reaching a compromise is one thing, giving Dean a shady advantage and dealing to split territory with that advantage is just plain unfair. I say if it's one or the other Dean keeps his countries and that's it, not the fifteen'year rule, which is borderline corruption. Fed (talk) 18:19, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, and you guys want to make this corrupt guy the head mod. Considering what he has done in the past and present, I don't think he is fit to hold this position. Its like giving a senator who has sent to prison the presidency. It just isn't meant to happen.

Let me say it again, the bordering country rule allows this sort of thing. Me, Fed, Saam and others have done this already in the game with no problems. Heck no one battered an eyelid at us doing it, but now seeing that other people could loose a bit of territory/the chance to get some territory, they now decide to pipe up. Scan has now even drawn up a map dividing the Balkans between himself and Dean. It is yet another instance of Scan abusing his position to better his own nation, something which he was banned for in the past. Not to mention an alliance between the Venetians and Ottomans is borderline implausible considering they've been hated enemies for the past 100 years or so. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:39, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the deal was ok cuz a mod offered it. If you wish I can just use the Ottoman Empire to avoid any more issues.,Besides, ecentualy it was going to be used to advance the Ottomans past a plausible point because, well, thats what ive done in the past when having more than one nation, look at Hot Cold War, I did that and united germany and england. (DeanSims: Talk) 19:28, January 15, 2013 (UTC)™

Well since we have Dean deciding to just use the Ottoman Empire instead of insisting on controlling the area he used to then there will be no need for the 1.5 bonus which I was going to use as a compromise. the bording country rule does not allow it to this extent. You say it is ok to control bordering nations with military, economy and war one second and refuse to allow even planting discussion of joining an international league -.- I'm confused Von. And honestly, I don't care who gets mod-in-chief so long as they do their job. Enough with the shame politics... Scandinator (talk) 00:54, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Also your precedent with the Caliphate was due to the fact that one ruler controlled all those nations (even so if I was there then the conquest of Russia would have never happened). If you are talking about after Caliphate, then the only reason nothing was done is thanks to mod inactivity. Scandinator (talk) 08:01, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

No its not okay for a player to control over NPCs which border them. The rules state thusly: "It is possible to create multiple nations. However some rules must be observed. ... (Section 3: Independence): Bordering nations may gain independence at any time." As in you can have part of your territory break away as an independent state bordering your current which you control. And it was done a few times after the Caliphate but there were active mods e.g. me. You seem to forget you were active too, even having a war with one of my successor states & not complaining about it then. The Caliphate and Russia also did it when we were creating new provinces/states too. The only complaint from Lurk being not to over-do it. But true they shared the same head of state, but they acted autonomously from one another but with the same intentions. However I did do it with Shaybah and also it was done a few times in PM1 too.

Also what do you mean about: "refuse to allow even planting discussion of joining an international league." To what league and what nations do you refer? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:22, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Announcement
In in attempt to centralize the leadership of the game, several people have mentioned the creation of a mod page. That is exactly what I have done. Please visit it as soon as I have created it(mods only though!)AP (talk) 06:19, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

HRE
I have developed a new plan for ending the HRE. Election are "ongoing" right now, even though we have no votes in. My plan is that the HRE becomes split due to the radical differences between the "candidates" for Emperor and the proximity of votes in number. Eventually everyone support one candidate leave the Emperor, and this pattern continues with the remaining states until nothing is left. Thoughts? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:15, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

There is a great divide already, Burgundy, Italy and Bavaria are likely to break away very soon leaving a remanent HRE. Scandinator (talk) 06:42, January 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you just be a bit more patient? I was going throw the HRE out the windows long ago, but everyone interfered. If you all cooperate this time, we can make everything click into place and be independent nations. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:42, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

So this would be to divide the HRE even more after that?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:54, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Just like the Caliphate I think the HRE should be given an ultimatum now. Either split it up before 1600 or the mods will do it for you in 1600. Something which we have tried partially already (e.g. the Kappelist league break away) but you guys seem to unwilling to break it up. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:24, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

...You do realize that I just said I'm going to break it up, right? Or did you just read the first sentence?

Anyways, I have tried several times to force the HRE to implode. However, several other things interfered with this. I have not postponed this at all. I ask that everyone fall in with the plans so that everyone can be happy when this is all over. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 03:32, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well then show us these plans. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:47, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

He did state above his plans, slightly vaguely, but stated yes. However, if the HRE doesn't fall apart by 1600, the mods will need to force it apart. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:58, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Siad plan being forced infighting, no successor to the Emperor, no central government, states decide that there is no more HRE, the end. Much easier than anything else anyone has or had planned. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:52, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Mods?
It has come to my attention that the recent elections for new mods were thrown together by Saamwiil, and that he made up several rules, including you can vote more than once and anyone can run. Clearly this goes against the existing rules. As such, I am inclined to believe that Fedelede and AP are unfortunately not really mods, and neither is Saam himself. I also believe that he closed voting after I put my vote of rejection against him, and he insists that I voted after closing. Anyone can check the history and see that I voted against him before he "closed" voting. As such, I am sure that we to vote all over again, and ensure that all our candidates meet the criteria given.

FURTHERMORE, I do not appreciate the whole vendetta Saam set against my colony I established, Neu Berlin. I would like to know in which timeline and alternate universe the Indians are found capable of driving back numbers of armed Europeans, as well as the fleets from the motherland that are stationed there year round. I have already been inducing native attacks upon myself for quite a while now, and these recent announcements that I cannot expand my colony by my God-given rights (excuse the reference, it's just a term) of 2100sqkm.

Thank you for bothering to read this.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:27, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and one last thing. In all honesty, do these unorganized tribes really count as nations at all? Should they even be on the map? And if yes, how plausible is it really for the fourth-most modernized nation on the entire planet to defeated by awestruck natives? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:30, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

No offense Saam, but are you a mod? You're name isn't on the list, and I've been confused about your status as a mod for a while now. And I see Scraw's part of the argument. It seems that his colony is the only one that is being attacked by natives, no one else's. CourageousLife (talk) 13:54, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

I thought that the election was to replace the mods who left, which were two, so in this case, Saam wouldn't be a mod, as he got third place in votes among the four which competed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:51, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

So he's not a mod? CourageousLife (talk) 17:25, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

No.i think that he was the last to hit those five points, so he isn't a mod unless it is decided that we can have a ninth mod, but the mod-in-chief election is still tied between me and Scan.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:08, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yank's Cetera Argument
I've still got my doubts about Caspia. It still seems like it grew way too fast. If he had started with Kuwait and slowly worked on expanding his territory I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he had to be greedy and take it all in one fell swoop. They way he uses the constituent countries to pad is numbers in the mod is against the rules, but he doesn't care. This in my opinion disqualifies him from assuming the position of Mod in the first place. And didn't he effectively storm off in a huff when he didn't get his way? Yank 05:45, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Saam's become what Scan used to be. I think he needs to take a break from the map game and return when he can play nice with others. He can't cheat in the algorithm and he shouldn't bully his fellow users. He needs to leave before his actions kill this game and tarnish the legendary predecessor's reputation. Not that I'm saying he can't be rehabilitated. Scan has become a productive member of the map game. I'm just saying he needs time to cool off, as how Scan did. He needs to sit out the rest of this game and return when PMIII comes. --Yank 06:03, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not the only one who thinks Saam went too far. Both Von and Fed agree that his behavior with Caspia. I'm not the only one with a "giantsquidofangervendetta" or whatever he calls it. His implausible posts picking on Scraw do absolutely nothing other than implausibly try to keep a colony from doing the natural thing and expand. The Natuve Americans were powerless to stop the Europeans, so it's ridiculous to think otherwise. Yhe fact remains that his atat paddjnv is considered cheating by pretty much everyone. He doesn't have the right to bend the rules for his own benefit. Not to mention the fact that he's quit the game. Until he changes his ways like Scan did he does not belong here. Principia Moderni didn't get the reputation it did by allowing the players to throw out the rules at will.--Yank 18:53, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Saamwiil's Cetera Argument
This is just an example of how blind to the scenario you are and using your modship to your advantage to pursue your giantsquidofangervandetta. I'm not sure if you really want Yank as a mod. Saamwiil, the Humble 13:05, January 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Kuwait is only one of the three states leading against the Persain War, and has no leadership of the the three.
 * 2) I had long before posted how the divisions of Caspia would go down, and would have liked to be a peacefull, and make the Persian states into tiny trading states, Von may attest this, and maybe if you have the energy, you may take another look at the DME talk page, but of course you shouldn't, mods shouldn't do research before doing their argument, should they?
 * 3) I no longer control Caspia, so this truly is a mute point.
 * 4) Caspia is basically the territories I had started off with in the game, and it is a weak remnant state of what they used to be (the Qoyunlus). It doesn't havea national army, there is a minimal tax on the local emirs which is often ignored, and the emirs may declare war with each other, it spends most of its money on arts and technology. This is one of the biggest threats the Middle East has had, isn't it?
 * 5) Yank seems to care more about honour than actual gamplay, and will use his modship to persue the giantsquidofangervandetta. He has continuosly shown for his main intrest to be destroying nations ex and in Caliphate, unless he controlls it as a mod (Persia, Dimurats). I actually think he is perfect as a mod. He's biased, impluasible and can't control his anger, that's all what a mod needs to be the best one possible.

'Scussion
I'm with Yank. Saam, first of all, everything you said could have been said by Yank to be used against you. Essentially--every thing you've said is wrong. Modship is about what you said it is--and you are neither a mod, nor do you fit any of your criteria. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:54, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Haha. No it couldn't. I have no nation, I cannot be biased. If I were to pursue my giantsquidofangervandetta I would be making Korea revolt right now (which I believe should happen since Korea almost conquered Manchuria t one point, then it jus became vassalise), but since I am not biased like Yank, I don't, I leave it to other mods who may be less sentimental about the subject. Anyhow, I think the moderators agree that your German colony was too big. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:03, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, a Korean conquest would have been plausible at all times. The algorithm.

Second of all, you're not a mod.

Third of all, the only who still thinks my colony is too big is you--Collie and AP officially disagree with you, as evidenced by this page, the game page, and the mod page. I've followed all the rules. You have not. Yank has. You are not a mod. END OF STORY.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:09, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Trololol. You really like the word 'End Of Story' do you not. Actually AP originally mentioned the German Colony being to big, it wasn't even my original idea, do research. The Koreans were vassalised not conquered, look throughout the talk page and its archives and you will  never find a place where Manchuria conquered Korea, actually it was the other way around...

~ Saam

Yes, in fact I do. Yes, he did start it, but then he said you're going overboard with it.

It doesn't matter what happened to Korea, it's still plausible. ALGORITHM.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:22, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Ottoman-Albanian War
Would someone please do an algorithm for the Ottoman-Albania War? (DeanSims: Talk) 14:24, January 17, 2013 (UTC)