Talk:Russian America

Some new ideas
I have some new ideas for the timeline. None of which are canon, but I want to figure them out before I finalize any.


 * With a greater Russian presence in North America, the US would have to abandon all their movements westward. Because of which, the US would move southward, annexing, , , among others. The US would also help to create a "sphere of influence" in the region (much like Cuba in OTL). The US would assist in the Canadian rebellions and the Texas revolution.
 * Canada: I am not too sure if I really want to take an idea from the Maple Uprising timeline, but I can see this escalating into a similar outcome. Upper and Lower Canada gain independence. English speaking UC (OTL Ontario) is annexed into the US (or remains under British control), while LC (OTL Quebec) becomes a pro-American "Republic of Canada." The Maritime Provinces become a Dominion of the UK, while the remaining portions of Canada continue to be under British control. Again, I really don't want to take the ideas from another timeline, but this is an idea I had.
 * Texas: Texas would gain their independence as in OTL, but the US is reluctant to annex the nation. After years of waiting, Texas gets quite comfortable being their own nation.

Nations list quicky ideas
Here are a couple of ideas I have for several nations in TTL, giving a quick history.


 * Alaska: You can guess
 * Canada: TTL Canada would be more like OTL Quebec. The Canadian rebellions would be taken seriously by the US and would allow the two Canadas to become independent. Upper Canada (OTL Ontario) would be annexed into the US, while Lower Canada (Quebec and Labrador) would become the "Republic of Canada."
 * Borealia: Rupert's Land and the Arctic Islands (which remain British) are united to form the Dominion of Borealia. It acts much like OTL Canada.
 * Acadia: Or the "Maritimes Union," would be an autonomous Dominion of the UK, made up of the and includes Newfoundland Island. This would be this timeliness "Canadian Confederation."
 * United States: The US would much like OTL. Excluding the area gained by the Texas annexation, California, and Oregon. It would expand north to include Upper Canada, and south to include Cuba, Hispaniola, and Puero Rico.
 * West Indies Federation: With greater US presence in TTL, the WIF would remain intact.
 * Texas: Texas would gain its independence as in OTL, but the US would be more reluctant to annex the republic, because it would lead to not only war with Mexico, but maybe Russia.
 * Mexico: Mexico includes the border it originally had, excluding Texas and Central America. It would be a commonwealth of Russia up until the late 1870s.
 * Belize and the Mosquito Coast: With greater US presence in the Caribbean, and loosing the two Canadas, the UK would be more defiant in keeping its claims here. Belize already exists in OTL, but the Mosquito Coast would also exist as a nation.
 * United Provinces of Central America: Or whatever they want to call themselves, would remain in a federation, in fear that the pro-Russian Mexico would annex them again.
 * Colombia: With Spain humiliated by the loss to Russia and Mexico, the independence movement for Colombia would gain greater moral by the Colombians. Because of which, Bolivar's "Gran Colombia" would remain a federal nation, even expanding to include more states.

--NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:02, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Update on Texas. I am rethinking that the Texas Revolution would be a failed rebellion in TTL. However, it would be movements such as Texas and other secessionist movements in Mexico that would lead to a successful Mexican Federation. I will still need to work out the Mexican states, but Mexico would actually be an important and rich nation in TTL (as opposed to the chaos in Mexico today). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:57, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * A few thoughts:
 * Is it possible that Labrador would be part of the Maritimes Union as well as Newfoundland??
 * If not could there be some form of secessionist movement within Labrador to join the MU??
 * Would there still be an American Civil War?? Verence71 10:56, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Would there still be an American Civil War?? Verence71 10:56, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Mosquito Coast
At the moment I am creating a proposal page for Mosquito Coast:0:0 and was wondering if you could add the following: The Cabezas Incident; it is a failed attempt by the former nation of Nicaragua/ before becoming part of the Federal Republic of Central America/ to annex Mosquito Coast. Great Britian, refusing to let such a thing happen, reinforces its colony with millitary personel. This is actualy an POD from OTL since Mosquito Coast is actualy annexed with Britian doing nothing about it (for some reason, apparently) For more info on the real event, just go look up Mosquito Coast yourself (was I being rude there?). BlackSkyEmpire 20:39, February 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, very nice. Please, feel free to work on it. I have been fascinated with the Mosquito Coast for a while now (primarily since it has the word "Mosquito" in it XD). Interesting POD. That is exactly what I was hopping would happen in TTL. You say it gains its independence? You mean it becomes a republic? Wow, now I am really interested. If you are interested in making a new flag for this, I have an idea for a flag with a mosquito on it (just popped in my head). No need to be sorry, you were only making a statement. That is the only flaw of the internet, you can't decipher ones expression. But anyway, have fun. I can't wait to see what you have in mind. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:49, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

POD proposal
Here is an prposal; it is a fragment of my opinion on how the Russians expand from Fort Ross: In OTL, Ivan Kuscov, founder of Fort Ross, failed to set up a settlement in Bodega Bay (in which he managed to proove was crawling with many Beavers and Otters; He actualy managed to bring back many beaver skins and 1,160 otter pelts!!). But what if Ivan manages to convince some of the local Russians at Fort Ross to settle there with there families and friends and to take advantage of the wildlife? Let us find out: After succesfully managing some local Russians into settling at the bay, Ivan returns to Russia where he publishes a book called Новая Земля, Новые Возможности (New Land, New Opportunities) in which tells the reader of the beauties, marvels, and opportunities of the land around Fort Ross. Ivan's book becomes very popular following its publication due to Ivans ability to "Express the world around him and giving a accurate and exciting view of what land in America is like. By 1813, Fort Ross has transformed from a small trading post to a large settlement with a small cluster of towns around the area as well; Ivan now is very popular and known across Russia (In fact, a few months before his death, Ivan would actualy be visited by the king of Russia; Alexander the I). Later in that year, Ivan led an hiking expedition from Fort Ross into OTL Sacramento Valley; Ivan later described the area as shown: "There miles of plains beyond the eye could see or the legs could travel and beyond that where mountians reaching far into the heavens; never in my life has such beauty been beheld before my eyes, I will remember it as long as I live". After returning to Fort Ross, Ivan would continute to lead eleven more trips across the land; he would travel across most of OTL California with only the edges of and southern area of OTL California unexplored by him. In 1825 Ivan Kuscov would die by natural causes; he will forever be remembered as the pioneer of California.

The Importance and Growth of Alaska
In OTL, Alexander Andreyevich Baranov was rumourd to have transferred money to the U.S. under his name, he was later removed in which destroyed Russia's chance to expand; but what if Alexander managed to eliminate the rumours and proove himself innocent?? Let us explore this as well:

(Sorry, I will do more work tommorrow, but I hope you enjoyed this whole thing so far. :) ) BlackSkyEmpire 02:21, February 4, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Reply to all
Sorry for the delay, but I have been sick these couple of days. But I have read both of your of your suggestions. I am really amazed and intrigued at the idea. My interests were set primarily at politics, I never really read much about Baranov of Kuskov. Those two divergence would make great PODs. With Kuskov persuading more to go to the Ross Colony, and Baranov remaining Governor of Russian America, this may persuade Spain to act violently to secure their interests in America, leading to war and a Russo-Mexican alliance. Very interesting. Sorry, sill a little sick, so I can't think of any way else to express my approval. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:48, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

More updates
Here are a couple updates, plus some key events in Alaskan history that I have been too busy and preoccupied to state yet.


 * Colombia: With the moral or Royalists loosing in Mexico and Oregon, moral would rise for the other independence movements in the Americas. Colombia would be an interesting difference from OTL, as with Spain moving most of its supplies towards the joint war with Russia and Mexico, Colombia would be able to defend themselves with relative ease (compared to OTL). Despite some fear of the Russians, many Colombians believed that they were a blessing in disguise. Not only that, Bolivar would even make comments towards Royalists that he would seek Russian assistance if Spain continued to fight. Because of this, Bolivar's "Gran Colombia" would be allowed to remain a federation, without fear from external forces. Despite a minor border dispute between Mexico and the UK, Colombia would be able to retain its original border, and would be able to grow. With more success in Colombia, and possibly from fear of the Russian presents, Peru and Bolivia would not alienate themselves from Colombia, allowing them to become part of a greater federation. I'm still working out a possible map, but I predict it would retain the original three provinces, plus Bolivia (called Bolivar in TTL), Peru, and maybe Panama would gain "departmenthood."
 * Russian-American telegraph: I predict that the Russo-American relations would be much friendlier after the 1850s and 1860s. Because of this, plus with an American presence in Russian America, the Russian-America telegraph would not only be complete, it may in fact beat the Trans-Atlantic telegraph to become the first telegraph to connect North America to Europe.
 * Trans-Alaskan pipeline: I am not much into oil, but this would play an important role in the Alaskan economy and history. I will need to do more research on it before I can determine if there are any changes.

That's all for now. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:46, February 9, 2011 (UTC)

Oblasts to states
Just something I have been deciding on for weeks now. I believe it seems more likely that Alaska would be made up of states rather than oblasts.

Alaska is now divided into states. The Russians use the word государство rather than the word штат (which is used in other nations). The states are divided into oblasts, which act like counties. Because these states act as sovereign nations, singular words are commonly used for the states (rather than full words as would be the case for using oblasts).

The use of the term state is in reference to the fact that Alaska was formed by the unification of [than] independent nations. Unlike Russian oblasts (and other federal subjects), the states have similar patriotism for their state (just like in the US). The State of Vancouver would be the only exception in both cases. In both English and Russian, it would be called the "State of Vancouver" (Ванкуверский штат), and is divided into counties. This is similar to how several states of the US refer to themselves as "Commonwealths," and how Louisiana is divided into parishes (rather than counties). The reasoning for this comes from the same reason for Louisiana (English nostalgia and heritage). I will be working on updates later. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:59, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

States to Governorates
Again, change the status of the Alaskan subdivisions. First from oblasts to states, not states to governorates. The main reason for this, I began to think about what an oblast really was. Here's my logic... England is divided into counties. When the English set up colonies in Americas, they were organized into counties, which were organized into provinces. In the case of Russia, the Empire was divided into oblasts (and governorates). When Russia sets up colonies in America, they would be organized into oblasts, which would be organized together into governorates? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:12, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

On the state/province level, it'd be "Governate." The was the Russian Empire version of it, anyways. Oblasts were actually under the Governates, kinda like the counties. So yeah, more or less what you describe. Lordganon 00:34, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Here's Nuckie!!!
I have been getting back into the timeline again. I still believe A LOT needs to be done for the timeline. Articles to be cleaned, information to be updated, and stuff. Here are a couple of announcements and stuff to be coming up in the near future.


 * Alaska to Alyeska: I don't know why I want to do this, maybe for a sense of change between ttl and otl. But I am going to be doing this due to history and to differentiate the mostly Russian-speaking nation to the now English-speaking state of the USA. You can read more about my justification here, but I think the name is an interesting change. Obviously, this is only a change for the English language, with the Russian name remaining the same as it has always been. I hope you enjoy the change to the Alaska:Alyeskian Democratic Federative Republic:0 as much as I feel.


 * New Governorate of Queen Charlotte: After doing some more reading on the Queen Charlotte Islands, I am more confident that the British would have colonized the islands more extensively than otl, and the answer is simple: the Russians are Coming! The population would be much, much larger (preferably over a million permanent residents). Though the islands would have a growing Russian population, I predict it would remain dominantly English, adding to the Anglophonic community of the ADFR. Still a lot to do, but I have already updated the flag to now have 18 stars. This also makes me happy, not the number of governorates can be counted by nines (3x3=10 XD). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Other stuff: Other things I have in mind, but not too much detail at the present are... the US WILL get Texas, just not all of it; Chile and Argentina may merge to be one nation; and a lot more to come. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

No Japanese Expedition?
Hello there nuke. Since not many people been on the talk page, I thought I accompany you.

I was thinking about the Matthew Perry expedition that caused the westernization of Japan. However, since the OTL Western USA Coast now is part of both Mexico and Russia, I doubt that expedition will occur in the timeline. What do you think?

RandomWriterGuy 20:30, November 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess not. I never heard of him. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:51, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

That's surprising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_C._Perry

Pretty famous, imo.

Lordganon 22:04, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I am very suprised about this Nuke. Let me give you a small summary about who he is.

Matthew Perry was sent to Japan by the USA government in 1852 to ask the Japanese to open up trade to the west. Concerned about the events in China, Japan reluctantly agreed.This led to a domino effect that caused Japan to be one of the strongest countries in Asia.

Without this expedition, what do you think mught happen to Japan?

RandomWriterGuy 03:55, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Why am I not surprised that everybody is making a big deal about this. Я люблю Россию, нет Японию!! Но, я люблю хентай (ХР)


 * I had an idea for another timeline, but it could maybe be possible for this timeline... maybe. I AM NOT PROPOSING THIS YET, SO DON'T TAKE THIS LIKE IT IS GOING TO BECOME CANON OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE.


 * Russia would be the ones who open up Japan to the west. This Russo-Japanese cooperation could eventually lead to no Russo-Japanese war, Russia could peacefully expand into Manchuria, and Japan would keep Korea (not to mention other potential land grabs in China... maybe). The war with Germany and Austria would still lead to the Russian Revolution and the formation of the Soviet Union (maybe now with a Manchu SSR). Because of the closer relations with Russia/USSR, nationalist Japan may either remain neutral during WWII, or may even side with the Allies. The Empire of Japan still exists (whether that would be better than OTL Japan), which includes Korea, Taiwan, and the Kuril Islands (НЕТ САХАЛИН!!!). Maybe this could lead to the continuation of the USSR (rather than it collapsing completely).


 * This is just an idea I had for another timeline. I have already made canon that Japan invades the Catherine Archipelago and goes to war with Alaska, and that the US would still gain Hawaii (it just doesn't become a state). But for a long time, I have considered how a vast Russian colonial presence in the Pacific would affect the ambitions of Japan. In Russian America Expansion (this timelines evil twin [I say that with no disrespect]), Alaska actually sides with Japan, and both stay out of WWII, and become the rulers of the Pacific.


 * In other words, I am open to any suggestions, as long as they don't completely diverge from what is already canon. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:34, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Not a big deal, was just a surprise, lol.

Siding with the Allies might be possible. If they get their resources from the USSR, that might be an option. But it meaning the USSR avoids collapse would be unlikely. Then again, however, Imperial Japan would, if close to the Russian Empire, possibly have a very.... ugly reaction to the formation of the USSR. Debatable, really, as to their actions. But, overall, I think we can safely say they would not join the Axis here.

Lordganon 05:22, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

I guess the "not collapsing" idea was a long shot. I remember watching an alternate history about Japan siding with the Allies (over on YouTube), and it looked interesting. Another idea I thought of... what about China? Could it at all be possible that China sides with the Axis (being a reverse for ttl). If the USSR were to collapse, than it may be interesting so see (at least my idea of) an independent Manchuria which speaks both Manchu and Russian. Also, maybe I could combine the ideas from another timeline I had, having a pro-Russian state in Asia. Ooh! Now I am getting a little exited about the aspect (don't take that as canonization yet). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:31, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

About the only way to possibly avoid a collapse is China-esque reforms, but.... with all of the nationalities, it's unlikely to work.

China could side with the Axis. If Japan doesn't start invading, there'd be a large opening with the Nationalists for a German alliance. Heck, they would have done that otl if it wasn't for the Japan bit. A Soviet Manchuria - which, as you say, would be Manchu-Russian after the collapse - would only make that worse.

Lordganon 05:52, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "make that worse."? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:26, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Reasons for China to join the Axis, and the likelihood of it happening. Lordganon 23:31, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

OH!!! I thought you were saying that it would not work or something. But just to clarify (because I am apparently stupid XD)


 * A Soviet-controlled Manchuria would encourage the Chinese to join the Axis (and leaving Japan open to being an ally).

That's correct, right? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:47, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

It would definitely encourage it, so long as Japan does not invade in the 1930s. A Japanese invasion of China before the war, as in otl, would put the situation to that of otl. Lordganon 23:57, November 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now I am getting interested in this idea. You mentioned that Japan would most likely take the collapse of the Russian Empire negatively. How so? Would it be (more or less) like OTL, in which Japan occupies Vladivostok and such? This could also allow the continuation for Japan to invade the Catherine Archipelago (since it would have been under communist control, but it would have to be much, much earlier). This also leave open the possibility of incorporating another timeline idea I have had. Pretty much, incorporating my former "Dalnevostok" timeline, in which the Far Eastern Republic remains independent, and parlays it to becoming a full SSR of the USSR. While the idea of the FER (as it was in OTL) made it seem impossible to become an SSR, it could if it were to include Manchuria. So my idea for this could be:


 * China invades Manchuria, which the USSR would reoccupy in the mid 1940s (like OTL). With no communist China (most likely), the USSR would annex Manchuria. It would be combined with Outer Manchuria (the Far Easter Republic [more or less]), creating a greater Manchu SSR.

I even have some interest in my former "Roosevelt's Germany" into this timeline (maybe). While I know very little about China being an axis, I would assume that even if the US were to get involved, Japan would pretty much annihilate China (as proven in OTL). So more anger would be focused on Germany (rather than divided between the two [I am still surprised Italy is still considered an innocent bystander XD]). With that, the idea of divided Germany into six, separate states (rather than simply dividing Germany into "temporary" occupation zones). This could be possible, and I love the idea of incorporating old timeline ideas into here, but here is another major question that should be answered before this... if Japan is an ally... will the US get involved in the war? (let alone Alaska). I have already made mention that Hawaii, the Philippines, and Guam would still become US territories, so an American presence in the Pacific will still be active (more or less in comparison with the British). I would assume Pearl Harbor would not happen (at least not a Japanese-lead one). So what (if anything) would encourage the US to go into war against the Axis? I have no dough the USSR would be able to defeat Nazi Germany on their own (granted it would take much longer), but this would lead to a timeline much similar to the Atlantic Iron Curtain. I dough the Germany would invade Great Britain (especially is the USSR is even more of a juicy target than OTL). Quite confusing. Any thoughts? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:18, November 22, 2011 (UTC)



(UPDATE: I came across this image a while ago. Seems fitting for this discussion). --NuclearVacuum(Talk) 00:27, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think Japan would still invade China that is not held by Russia because they had always wanted to do that.

About the Russian expedition to Japan thing, I might contradict this since before the otl American expedition, there has been no records in history Russians have ever contacted with Japan. I think the country might invade it instead.

--RandomWriterGuy 00:29, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Whoa, Nuke! Slow down, lol.

Japan could be seen as taking it more negatively, if there is much better terms between the two. Lord knows, they weren't happy about it otl. My line of reasoning, besides good relations, is that if they are on good terms, and the Soviets execute the Royals, the Japanese will take it even worse than otl. The idea of executing royals is not something that will fly well. They'll get over it, mind. Any territory seizing would be like otl, though would take a couple more years to be returned. Afterwards, they can probably continue to get resources from the Soviets - they have the good relations beforehand going there way, after all.

Nor is China in the post-war period capable of invading much of anything - too weak. It'd be a sort of movement ala~ regaining Danzig was in Germany in the 1930s.

China would be getting help from the Germans on a vast scale. And with no communists, they are a match for Japan - remember, the Nationalists did hold their best troops back in that war to face Mao's troops. Japan and the USSR would win in the end, but.... it would take some time.

More anger would indeed be on the Germans. The idea of a six-state Germany is appealing too, lol.

Correct, no Pearl Harbor by Japan - though some sort of similar action by China may not be out of the question. The US, however, would still more than likely get involved. Either one of the Axis does something stupid, or FDR gets a declaration. But Pacific involvement would be more limited. Call in 1943 they get involved, at the latest. Mostly in Europe, though.

Yeah, that image is more or less what I meant, lol.

A German invasion of GB is pretty much impossible.

Japan's ambitions were for both resources, and mostly Korea besides that. Thing is, the quest for resources otl and the militarism in place meant that they continued. Not the case here. Nor have they "always wanted to do that."

Russian contact with Japan was only a matter of time.

Lordganon 01:53, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow! I almost fried LG's brains out XD


 * I never really considered much about China, so forgive me for implying that they were weak. I am also pretty confident that the Russian Empire would leave Korea alone if Japan agreed to leave Manchuria alone, and allow the Russians a presence in the Pacific. I also have another idea for Japan, granted it would be going against what I have already said up their (in Russian mind you XD). As you said, if Japan were to occupy part of Russia and Manchuria (to give it back later), than maybe it could be parlaid into Japan gaining all of Sakhalin under good terms. Again, a reversal idea. In OTL, Russia agreed to give Japan all the Kuril Islands in exchange for all of Sakhalin. After the Russo-Japanese War, Japan gained southern Sakhalin. When WWII ends, Russia annexes Sakhalin back, and all the Kuril Islands. In this case, the Japan would occupy Primorie and Sakhalin. When Japan gives it back, the USSR could agree to hand over the entire island as some compensation, especially if they both fight Nazi-supporting China. I could also see Japan being more independent from the west. Democratic and capitalist, yes... but would probably be less intimidating than NATO (maybe a good buffer state between them and the American-controlled Pacific. Just an idea. Granted, Japan's sphere of influence could still cause some concerns within the USSR, but you never know.


 * Not that it has any purpose for this discussion, but I just realized that this would make Japan a permanent member in the UN, and would allow them to continue their nuclear program (IN NORTH KOREA... I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE THAT IS WHERE JAPAN CENTERED THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM XD). This would also give China the excuse to readopt their "five races" flag (I love that design).


 * I just got a devilish idea. Since it seems the timeline is going to be chaining (maybe), maybe I could bring back another idea I originally had canon here, but got rid of. Maybe under the same idea, Fort Elizabeth (in Hawaii) could be successful here (since the POD is still after the failure of 1817). Granted, if it were to become successful, I don't think it should be added as a new governorate of Alaska, but rather a Russian colony which would gradually gain independence. It could be possible, but not too sure. Also, though I dough it, do you think there is any possible chance Russia could gain more in the Pacific (maybe the Philippines or something).


 * I am shocked you like the Six-Germanys (Germanies?) idea. It could also lead to less tension in Europe between East and West (to a degree). I don't want to write more... in fears I will fry your brain further XD (Sorry about that again) --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:24, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry about my head, lol. Too much post to easily reply to is all, lol.

Well, if they are on better terms like that, there's no Russo-Japanese War. Overall, I figure in exchange for selling the Japanese resources, Japan would pull out of any controlled areas easy enough. Agreed on Korea and Manchuria. Japan would have the Kurils, and the Russians all of Sakhalin.

Yep, nukes and a Permanent member :D

Hawaii is a bit of a stretch, truthfully. Anywhere else in the Pacific would be much too far as well. Beyond the ability of Russia to do it, if that makes any sense.

I've actually ran them splitting Germany up, after either of the world wars, on some level thought my head on several occasions, and its an idea I like. Of course, I prefer dissolving it into the kingdoms, etc. after WWI, but I'm a monarchist, so that's not shocking, lol. It's a concept I like, and feel would have been a better solution than what was actually done otl.

Lordganon 08:48, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I just want to be getting this cleared, so here is a bullet list.


 * With no Pacific-bound USA, the US would not lead the area of Japanese westernization. Only three other powers could have done this: Great Britain, Russia, and Spain. Out of the three, I personally believe Russia would make a better candidate, as they are similar in this aspect (eastern nations moving westward). With this, the Russians and the Japanese would have a great alliance during the 19th century, and are still friendly today. With no Russo-Japanese war, Russia would be able to retain all of Manchuria, while Japan would be safe to capture Korea without fear.


 * When the Russian Empire collapses into civil war and finally into a communist state, Japan would take it negatively, which would only get worse when it is confirmed that the communists kill the royal family. United with the White movement (initially). Japan would occupy Vladivostok and that region, as well as the Catherine Archipelago. Japan would eventually give the area back.


 * With no conflict between the two, the USSR and Japan would begin with great relations during the Cold War.

As for what causes the US to get into WWII, I have no defined idea. As for Hawaii, I have been doing some reading, and I think I have an even better idea that simply a Russian Hawaii.

When the Russians arrive to Kauai (for various reasons), King Kaumualii would eventually butter up to them. Kaumualii wanted to keep his monarchy in Kauai, but the other Hawaiian islands (ruled by Kamehameha I) were threatening to invade in order to unite all the islands. Kaumualii believed having a Russian ally could secure his reign, and keep Hawaii out. RAC sponsor Schäffer would work with, and would eventually be allowed to build a fort on the island. Schäffer was quited to have told Kaualii that the Tsar would back him, when in reality, Tsar Alexander was angered about this move. The project failed, and the rest is history. But with a successful Ross Colony, and more colonists to Russian America, Tsar Alexander may look differently at the idea, and eventually agree to support the idea. Russia would gain an anchorage in the middle of the Pacific, Kauai would remain separate from Hawaii, and Russia gains a new colony (more or less). While I greatly believe the Russian culture and language would soon outnumber the natives (as in OTL with English), Russia may be more willing to cooperate with them. Much like the UK in OTL, Russia would allow the monarchy to rule the islands. I could even see Kauai becoming a protectorate of the Empire (much like what Uzbekistan was back than). With the islands separated from both Eurasia and America, they would not be affected (greatly) by the revolution, and would remain a kingdom to this day. I even found out the island had a Russified name during the early 19th century: Atuvai (Атувай). It comes from the fact that the Kauaian name for the island is Tauai (sine the island used "T" more than the other islands which used "K"). Seems like an interesting name. It wouldn't be alone, Fijians call their islands Viti. It is still a work in progress, but I love the idea ^_^ --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:02, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Great relations after WWII would probably be an exaggeration. Definitely, they would be better than in otl, but the communist thing would keep things a certain distance away.

US entry into the war would be one of three things: Something like Pearl Harbor, Something like unrestricted submarine warfare, or convincing enough people and getting a declaration. The latter two options being the most plausible, of course. Probably, it ends up being a combination of the two. Really, otl, following the start of American ships escorting some convoys (before Pearl), all it would take would be one, small, accident to get their entry.

With Hawaii, it's a question of force projection - just too far away from Company and Imperial bases. Kamehameha I - British-backed - would more than likely, despite any Russian aid, be able to still control the island. King Kaumualii was actually at the time subservient in all manners to Kamehameha - he had sworn allegiance in 1810 to him. Heck, the R-A Company was on good terms with Kamehameha. They were not inclined to piss him off. Schaffer also gave that king a literal fortune in company property, without permission.

But, the idea floundered otl, not for any of that. The foreign minister had a report drafted for the company by the ambassador in London, which was what decided things. To quote: "The directors of the Company now leaned to supporting Schäffer and requested tsar's approval to proceed. The approval depended on the opinion of foreign minister Karl Nesselrode who in turn relied on the opinion of Count von Liven, the ambassador in London."

The content amounted to "...according to the ambassador, the disadvantages and risks of a Russian protectorate over Kauai outweighed any possible gains." Basically, it would piss off the Brits, among others.

On some level, I've no doubt it would be feasible. But.... overall, not financially viable, or a good idea politically.

Lordganon 18:33, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I am not too organized in writing on talk pages. As for Kauai... S***!!! Figures, because I was just getting into the idea of a divided Hawaii. I even began an Atuvai:article:0 because I like the idea (I even found a flag that would have been perfect for Atuvai). But in the end, you are right. After doing more reading myself, I have ironically came back to the same reason I abandoned the idea long ago. Schaffer had no connection to reality, and I would greatly support that Hawaii wasn't worth a war with either the UK or the US. In the long run, I need to go back to the true purpose of this timeline, a Russian nation in the Pacific Northwest.


 * Now then, back to Asia. I have made this map to show how I could see the continent in ttl. Japan would keep Korea, Taiwan, and the Kurils. Excluding Tibet and Uyghuristan, China would now be a federation (with large backing from Japan). With a Japan-backed China, Stalin may be more inclined to annex Mongolia in ttl (it's a surprise it didn't happen in otl) and Uyghuristan. Since the Buryats and Mongols are ethnically similar, Buryatia (which was originally called the Buryat-Mongol ASSR) is transferred to the Mongol SSR. When the USSR collapses, they become independent nations. Mongolia and Manchuria may continue to hold strong relations with Russia (such as Kazakhstan and Belarus in otl). With the recent push to create a Eurasian Union, I could see Manchuria being a strong supporter, and maybe could have been a member of the with Russia and Belarus when it formed in 1994.


 * Germany is obviously not in this map. But as for it being divided, just look at for more information. Before I forget, I dough any of the German states would be transformed into a monarchy (but I am a republicanist... if that's a word). XD --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:44, November 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry for breaking into the conversation and sorry if I'm wrong (this is not my area of expertise and my bias as a parliamentary monarchist is probably blinding me... :P) but I believe Bavaria and perhaps (somewhat unlikelily) either Prussia or Saxony, as the historically most conservative regions of Germany, might retain a limited monarchy. Not sure though. Fed (talk) 23:52, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking that the Spanish-American War would go as it did in OTL, however, the Philippines would not be targeted by the US. Is it possible that Russia might invade and conquer the islands?

RandomWriterGuy 02:36, November 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. As LG already made mention, it is pointless to think. The only reason I thought about it was only if Hawaii would become Russian, but this idea is also a bust. No need to go further on the idea. Besides, I am still confident that both would eventually end up American. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:17, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Just put in blank lines every few sentences, or between thoughts, if you remember =) No worries, though.

Sorry it took so long to reply, been busy.

Yeah, Russian annexation of Mongolia and Urg~ would be likely. I can definitely see them adding that one area to it, as well. Manchuria, though, would really not be expanded like that into otl Russia. By the time any such annexation of Manchuria would occur, that region would be heavily populated by Russians already. With Mongolia, without Japanese armies next door, it would be annexed, no question. A Japanese-backed China - without the three areas, probably not a federation, honestly, but it could be, I suppose - after WWII would be quite likely. Tibet would probably end up a British protectorate, just before WWII, if Russia annexes Manchuria, as well.

Manchuria would likely be part of it with Russia and Belarus.

A few of the German states probably would end up with monarchies. Bavaria, for instance, would be - there was actually a popular movement there to do it after WWII otl. Here, American pressure is lessened on one hand, and on the other federal pressure goes away against it, too. With the British Mandate not joining the rest, a monarchy there - the Brits are, after all, inclined that way - makes sense on some level, too - and, of course, it would be some sort of Hanoverian/British royal invited by the people to do so, as well. (and the word is "Republican, fyi)

Nor would I be counting Austria in all of this, either.

Germany's boundaries, unlike Roosevelt's proposal, would be like otl, I'm sure. As for the states.....


 * Russian Mandate --> Prussia, maybe Saxony too
 * British Mandate --> Hanover, maybe Oldenburg too
 * French Mandate ---> Rhineland and Baden(-Wurrtemburg, add a bit of the US one if this is added to name)
 * American Mandate ---> Hesse and Bavaria

Prussia, Hanover, Bavaria, Rhineland, and Baden would be the most likely. I recall seeing a few timelines in the past based on this, which only had four states. However, the French mandate is not only two separate pieces, but the French would prefer as many little bits as possible.

For the Philippines, however...

The American ability to beat the Spanish fleet there would be unchanged. But, without a west coast, the troops they used to conquer it would really be infeasible, at best. A US-allied Filipino Republic would be the most likely outcome. Though, I can't help but think that Japan may well have gotten involved, somehow....

Lordganon 08:45, November 25, 2011 (UTC)



I would prefer to keep the divisions of Germany the way I initially planned them to be in my former timeline. This would mean that Germany is divided into six sovereign nations (Austria, Bavaria, Hanover, Hesse, Prussia, and Saxony) and two international zones. The international zones (I believe) should be later merged into one of the sovereign states (my support would be Hesse, since it is small). The Iron Curtain would most likely follow the same line as OTL, so Prussia and Saxony would become communist (maybe Austria too... maybe). But... I am open to new ideas. Also, I would appreciate it if you didn't call me a Republican, because I am certainly not one (American political joke, you laugh now XD). Did Bavaria really want to go monarchy? I didn't know that. While I would rather they be republics, I don't think there would be much difference between a German republic and a German monarchy (since the Chancellor is pretty much the main political leader in Germany today). I also prefer to include Austria in the bunch for two main reasons. The first being that Austria (for all intensive purposes) is a German state (not to mention they willingly joined Germany [in comparison to Czechoslovakia and Poland]). The second being that Austria WAS treated the same way in OTL as did Germany. Austria and Vienna were similarly divided between the four allies. Had it not been for Austria agreeing to remain neutral from NATO and the Warsaw Pact, we could have very well seen the creation of an East and West Austria in OTL.

Glad you like the idea of a Greater USSR (Великосоветский Союз?). I also have a new idea for the USSR. With Germany more peaceful (in comparison with OTL), and a powerful Japan, I believe the USSR should continue to exist in one form or another. Granted, not a communist state, but definitely a state. This is also due to the fact that (as I have learned greatly from my New Union timeline), most of the republics of the USSR didn't want to become independent. I have also read that had Mongolia joined the USSR, they would have probably been the most resistant to collapse and would have maybe remained in Russia (or so I have read). While it could easily be that Dalny (the Russian name for Port Arthur) could end up under a similar agreement as with Baikonur and Sevastopol, I think they would also want to remain closer to Russia. So in a nutshell, the USSR would live on here.

My main idea would be that the USSR would be economically stable in TTL. With no major occupation in eastern Germany, economic cooperation with Japan and Alaska, Gorbachev would come to power and only have to implement political reforms and more freedoms to the people. With a stable ruble, the people would feel more comfortable being in the USSR (minus communism), and it remains a nation (minus the Baltic States and maybe Moldavia). I'm sure you (LG) would not like the idea, but I have other ideas. I don't have enough time to write them down now, so I will wait to see what you guys think before I make mention of them. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:24, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Before I forget to mention it, my support for the continuation of the USSR relies on one crucial fact... what will Japan become here? Will Japan become the third Superpower, or will it be (more or less) like OTL China (in which is is growing into one gradually). I know without US occupation, the Japanese economy may take longer to get to where it is today, correct? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:36, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Neo-USSR?


I have decided to make a subsection (so continue from down here). Anyway, I don't have a lot of time to write, but after thinking about it, I am now interested in incorporating another idea that I have had in mind for a while now, but I never got around to it. In a nutshell, with large Russian migration to Russian America, Siberia and the Far East would also have a population growth and a greater infrastructure than OTL. It was even said in OTL that the Russian Far East was quickly developing prior to the Russian Revolution. What would this mean? What I have in mind, this would mean a greater population and more republics in the region. Along with Manchuria and Mongolia, I am thinking about adding Chukotka and Yakutia as republics. Yakutia would be OTL Yakutia, while Chukotka would incorporate OTL Kamchatka, Magadan, and the northern half of Khabarovsk (not to mention Chukotka). This would also lead to a greater desire to retain a USSR. I am also considering (potentially) incorporating some ideas of the timeline A Red Century and (to a lesser extent) Russian America Expansion. With no major conflicts in Germany after WWII (i.e., no occupation zones) and a "better" relation with Japan, the USSR may initiate economic and political reforms earlier than OTL. I like the idea that Brezhnev is assassinated, and his successor reforms the USSR earlier, so I may add this (similar to how I incorporated portions of the Maple Uprising in TTL. Whether or not Afghanistan would join the USSR (as in ARC), that would be up to debate and consensus here. But in the long run... да СССР... нет СНГ!!! I have also updated the map of Asia, showing you all what I have in mind now (no real changes other than the USSR) --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:26, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: Now that I think about it, Afghanistan could end up a pro-Soviet state in TTL. For one reason, no Vietnam war. Obviously, Vietnam would be in Japan's sphere of influence, so no divided Vietnam, no war, and the US would not see the USSR's war against Afghanistan as something to get revenge on (since their is no revenge). I don't really support Afghanistan becoming a republic, only an allied neighbor. I have also come to the conclusion that with no Korean War and no Communist China, this could also allow the USSR to feel more confident to reform itself. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:37, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

I just got off of work, so I would like to give more detail to my idea. In OTL, the USSR had a lot to worry about when it came to their borders. This included the negative nature of the German occupation, the North Korean invasion of the South, and the Sino-Soviet split. In TTL, these would not be an issue. Germany is purposely divided (with the USSR gaining [at least] two mandates), the Korean peninsula is part of Japan, and China doesn't become communist (but remains closer to Japan). This would mean that the borders of the USSR would be peaceful, and less need for concerns by Moscow.

I have also grown some interest in the timeline A Red Century, in which Leonid Brezhnev is assassinated, allowing Prime Minister. While not everything about the timeline I agree with, I too would like to explore this POD. While I can't think of how this POD could inevitably happen as part of the previous ones, I believe that with the large amount of PODs already in place, it may be very interesting to see how this one could play out.

I do have one potential way this could become the event of a previous POD, but I am not completely sure I want to do this. The best way to find out if this can work or not is to let you all know what I have in mind. In short: Finnish SSR. Again, I don't have a specific POD for this one, other than the USSR winning the Winter War (maybe with more soldiers as part of the larger population as I will mention below). I am not 100% towards this idea (not even 10%), so let me see what you all think before I say whether I want to explore this idea further.

For a greater population of Russia, I believe this is a given. Granted, I don't mean that Siberia will become the most populous part of Russia, but I do believe a population growth would take place. The main reason is simple: Alaska. With waves of emigration to Russian America, an infrastructure would have to be made in Eastern Russia as well. The other reason I believe this to be true is because of the. In TTL, not only do I envision it being completed, but maybe beating the Trans-Atlantic Telegraph as the first telegraph line between North America and Europe. A population growth would be needed in order to service the lines.

This population growth would also lead to the creation of more republics of the USSR. Not including Manchuria, Mongolia, and Uyghuristan; I would believe that Yakutia and Chukchia would be likely candidates (at least in the east). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:19, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I said, otl German borders would more than likely be the case, so you're losing all of Prussia over the Oder.

Yes, the same line for the Curtain is most likely.

I really can't see the French letting their zone(s) be merged with the other two. Their interests had be that time long lied in a divided Germany, so it would be, in their minds, the more the better. The rest work well.

Wouldn't dream of calling you a Republican - I'm aware it's not your... political opinions? - but American hang-ups aside, the word for someone who is in favor of Republics is indeed "Republican."

Yeah, Bavaria wanted to put its monarch back on the throne. But, they were forced to sign the German constitution, which ensures a republic on all levels. Here, that'd really not stick at all. Otl, a large majority of its people wanted it after the war, and with a divided Germany, they'd likely get it.

The other states would be far less likely - though, as I said, it's possible the Brits may manage one in Hanover - to have a monarchy. But I figure that titles being recognized in some form - ala~ in Weimar/Nazi Germany - would happen in most of these states, especially in Hanover, unlike in otl, where the constitution, again, bans it.

With Austria, support there for the Nazis is always over-inflated - most guesses I've seen have only about half in favor of joining it. And most Austrians would definitely be insulted if you told them they were a "German State," lol. Include them in if you must, but they're pretty separate for a reason. Irregardless of what the Allies did to it, lol.

(note that I'm going to read the subsection later, so this part is only in response to what is before it)

Mongolia probably wouldn't have hung around, really. If Belarus goes, then Mongolia would too.

As you've seen in New Union, if the coup happens, you have a collapse overall.

Really, to put in something like that may be a bit of a stretch - and besides, you already have a timeline where that happens, lol.

With Japan.....

It occurs to me that a Japanese-backed China would stand a good chance, depending on its political makeup - which, as stated, would without the three biggest minorities not likely be a federation - have the emperor restored. I figure, if Japan did in otl in Manchuria, they'd prefer it in China itself too.

It'd likely be someone where like otl - not a superpower, at least not quite, but definitely more than China.

Japan, without being starved of food/resources in the war, and firebombed, would be like otl. American funds were needed largely to rebuild, overall. Add to little damage Japanese attitudes, and they will do very well for themselves. Heck, Japan's economy would probably be even stronger than otl and grow just as fast.

Lordganon 09:23, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

For the German border, the Roosevelt Plan worked on the idea that Germany would go back to it's pre-1938 border (excluding East Prussia), so Prussia would retain the portions that now are part of Poland. As for the "International Zones" becoming their own nations, I don't see much trouble with that, but I will have to do more reading on it.

As for China, I can see it becoming something (more or less) like OTL Germany, in which it would be divided into occupation zones (since China by than was pretty much that [like Hong Kong and so on]). So it would face the same republican situation as did Germany. I would prefer it be a republic. But after doing some reading, I had no idea that the Emperor of Manchuria was actually the last Emperor of China. That is weird, and I guess I see no real problem with the reestablishment of the Empire of China.

Glad you liked the joke about me being a republican XD I know the differences, just thought that would be funny.

Also, why didn't you write your response down here? I said to do so above. Also, why didn't you comment on my new idea? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)




 * UPDATE: After doing more reading on the subject, I now see what LG means about the Roosevelt Plan not being completely accurate. Because of which, I have made a new map, showing how I think they should look. The new nations would be...


 * Prussia: A communist nation which would make up OTL East Prussia, plus portions of OTL Poland. Did you know that Stalin originally planned to to have the entire be the border between Germany and Poland? I think this is a pretty interesting idea, and this could also lead to OTL Kaliningrad going to Poland... maybe. I am not completely open to the idea, because it makes Prussia look weird. So, just an idea.
 * Hanover: A united country of British occupied Germany. I don't believe it should be divided.
 * Bavaria: A kingdom that makes up OTL Bavaria
 * Rhineland: OTL Rhineland-Palatinate, North Rhine-Westphalia, and Hesse. It would incorporate parts of the claims of France, UK, and US (creating a larger buffer state and a neutral nation).
 * Swabia: The national name for Baden-Württemberg.
 * Saar: Potentially annexed into France, or added to the Rhineland.


 * What do you think? I would also like a response to my Neo-USSR idea. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:02, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that, as I said, didn't read any of the sub-section. Time constraints, you know? Been a busy week, and I generally don't get much writing done with the wife around, lol.

So.... Comments on the section I didn't get to before.....

With no Real Russo-Japanese War, you are correct: The population and industry in the region, without war damage/shipping supplies or troops instead of industry or settlers, combined with the additions, would make the area much more developed.

I really can't see those two areas being made into SSRs on their own, however. ASSRs would definitely be present in some form, but the areas where those groups mainly are would only end up slightly more populated than otl, especially Yakutia. You are right that Chukotka would likely be bigger, mind, though I suspect that only parts of Kamchatka and Magadan would end up included.

Oh, there'd still be conflict. Not quite like otl, but it would remain. It never really was about the zones, past a certain point, but the overall Cold War troubles.

Brezhnev getting assassinated would likely (i.e.55-60% in favor) mean that Alexei Kosygin does come to power, at least for a bit(note, too, his 1980 death), though odds are almost as good that a hardliner comes to power. Kosygin was really the most moderate member, but at the same time, he wasn't as liberal as that timeline makes him to be. His reforms, with full support from the party, were less than successful - results were poor, and they were not popular, either. There's no proof that they did any good either, and most scholars believe they did no good - they just benefited from luck with their timing, giving an appearance of improvement.

Politically, he wasn't the best diplomat. And if his pet projects were threatened in any way, he became like Stalin to crushing things, lol. Though, he did support the reforms when done in the Bloc.

I just can't see reforms having much impact. Even if he came to power, Kosygin wouldn't have the power or time to do it. Personally, given the failure of his 1965 reform, I doubt he'd actually get in charge, myself.

I can see some more minor reforms than in otl. But, the net result - maybe, a year or two later, but unlikely - would probably be the same still.

Any pro-Soviet government in Afghanistan would have to be backed up by force ala~ otl. Just doesn't end well. And there's no way they would become part of the USSR.

Yes, Vietnam - under its emperor, probably - would be Japanese-aligned.

I've no doubt that some kind of conflict would still occur about the time of the Korean War. There were several events otl, for instance, that were ignored because the west was already involved in Korea. One of them would likely "blow up" here.

For the most part, their borders really wouldn't be secure. The German border still needs to be secure, and Prussia/Saxony still occupied. It remains negative, only a bit better. China still remains on the border, and would continue to hold a grudge. If anything, they would have to have large troop numbers there from 1945 on, rather than decades later. Same goes for the Korean border, and the Japanese maritime borders. Because while Japan would have better relations with the USSR than the US does, they still need to be watched far more than otl - not weakened by war, and the militancy not gone on all levels. Maybe more peaceful than otl, but the east definitely has more potential than otl.

No way the Finns could get annexed. The Winter War's goals were really limited to what was taken - which is why nothing else was taken after WWII. Just not really possible.

Well, the population would be up, true enough, but..... you've got more territory to police and protect, colonies in Alaska to inhabit, and colonists in Manchuria. Overall, it would largely cancel itself out, I believe. (WWI, mind, would have more supplies and troops available, so the Tsar will likely do a touch better with his warfare)

I do expect it would get finished here. But, considering that it was only thought up after the Atlantic cable was first done otl, I really have to doubt it would be done first.

And, I really have to say that the Manchurian SSR wouldn't go over the Amur, and probably wouldn't get over the otl border. That area was really largely uninhabited until Russian colonization, and would be populated by them before the annexation of Manchuria were to occur.

All right, and the recent parts.....

I really don't think China would end up divided into zones like that, myself. Unlike in Europe, I really have to think that the Chinese war would be much more so like the otl Pacific War in its combatants. Replace American involvement with Japanese, of course. Yep, those emperors were one and the same. There's little reason for the Japanese to change their tune all that much, lol. Note, too, that the Chinese Nationalists would be the ones in charge fighting the Allies in this situation.

The otl German-Polish border happened due to Stalin's demands for an ice-free port in the west, and Polish demands for the area in question. It's interesting, but there's really not much reason for it to change, even with an ice-free port in the east.

Agree by and large with the German division you have there. Saar would be added to whatever state it touches.

Perhaps the one point there I doubt, mind, is that the three powers - the Soviets would keep theirs intact in some form, obviously - would slice up their zones to make another country. You've got three different styles of virtually everything going on, and it's these admins that would be the ones advising on it. The French zones would be buffers in one form towards this purpose. Swabia would be a good name, I think, with the boundary on that map, though if you go with just the French zone, I can say it definitely would be Baden.

Also, a note: the otl states of Germany were drawn up in the late 1940s, and mostly had no historical basis whatsoever. So you don't need to use them here ;)

Lordganon 09:28, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for commenting. I didn't know you hated subsections (you are more picky than me XD). In the long run... this is beginning to get too confusing and frustrating for me. I think that (in order to keep my brains from exploding), we should all step back for a little bit. You know, do something else and come back with a fresh mind. For closing, Germany will need to be further looked at, I have also come to the conclusion that Manchuria would not include OTL Primorskie and Priamurie, I had no idea the Transatlantic telegraph was first by a decade (from the program I watched years ago, they made it out that it was a neck-in-neck race), and Russia/USSR will have to be looked into further... later. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:43, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Which side Alaska is on?
Which side is Alaska on in the Cold War in this timeline? RandomWriterGuy 23:11, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Permission
Can I use two of this timeline's flags for my own alt timeline? Truteal (talk) 06:05, January 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Which flags do you wish to use? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:15, January 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * This one and the flag of Queen Charlotte Truteal (talk) 23:00, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

I see no harm in you using those flags. However, I only insist that you use the links provided, and do not upload duplicates to this site. Here are the links


 * File:Old Flag of the Far North (Russian America).svg
 * File:Flag of Queen Charlotte (Russian America).svg

--NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:37, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

Will do Truteal (talk) 05:25, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

CaN I
Can I Contribute? 19:46, August 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * May you please be more specific? Also, this particular page is off limits. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:22, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

Probly I will expand the page on socialism Alaska and make a few pages with your permission. Octavian, Hail Marius   01:41, August 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am still in the process of working on the details for the Alaskan Socialist Republic:0:0, so I am afraid to say that too is off limits. However, I am interested in what ideas you have in regards to new pages. I would also recommend reading the Editorial Guidelines:0:0 before going any further. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:24, August 5, 2013 (UTC)

I will expand the page on the American Krai:0:0 add a page on the Russian Revolution in Alaska:0:0. There will be a few fights between socialist rebels and the Republic of Alaska. Octavian, Hail Marius   02:09, August 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * The American Krai is off limits, and there is already a page for the Alaskan Wars:revolutionary wars:0 (which is a WIP and also off limits until it can be organized). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:45, August 6, 2013 (UTC)

So i was just thinking would there be a pro-Monarchist movement in Alaska. Octavian, Hail Marius (Play With Oct!)


 * Never considered it, but I would suppose such an organization would exist. Alaska was a safe haven for the and would've likely housed the monarchist factions of the movement. There may have been proposals to reorganize Russian America as a government in exile ruled by the Tsar (a la "Napoleon's World"). However such an idea would've died with the royal family, and the chaos of the Alaskan Wars would've cause any monarchist movements to gradually peter out of favor.


 * Such an organization would likely mimic the or any other monarchist group. Alaska may be the home for some members of the House of Romanov, but they would have no power or say within Alaska, aside from being a historical curiosity. I'm intrigued at such a concept. If you would like, you are more than welcomed to expand on this idea. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:43, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Doubt it would have died with the royal family in Russia, but the chaos after the war would have done it. The last really good claimant would have died by the time that all finally got sorted out, and that's after all the impact from the communists was added.

Would be something more akin to the monarchist societies/support you find today in Bulgaria and Romania.

I'd also guess that there would be a much better organized group of Romanovs than the otl one, too - more means, I think. Suspect that there would be no dispute as to the current claimant, either. More or less that one gets recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church in the Americas over the other.

That Church would also have far more standing, for that matter, but that's something for another post.

Lordganon (talk) 13:58, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Categories
I noticed that most pages for this timeline are not noted with the "Russian America" category. Would you prefer that all pages be grouped instead into a sub category, instead of having them all contain the category? Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 14:47, September 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I generally don't overfill the main category with every-single page as subcategories work just fine. As far as I know there is no rule requiring the main category to be used, and most users here tend to use subcategories more. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:01, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Article Proposal - Buddhism
Hello Nuclear Vacume,

I would like to write an article specifically about in Alsakya. When I was reading the general Alaska page, I started thinking about Russia's diveristy. Kalmykia and the diaspora of Kalmyks could lead to emigration to Russian America after the war with Spain. News would spread about open land in the American West and the opportunity for autonomy the Kalmyks wished to have. Buddhism would be the thread that kept Kalmyks together in the early years, assuming Kalmyks are travelling together. Buddhist Kalmyks would be on the frontlines of Russian settlement in North America as they would be deliberating looking to find a land far away from outside intrusion.

This would contrast with the massive influx of Chinese that will occur whenever the Alaskyan (OTL Californian Gold Rush) occurs in this timeline. A trickle may turn into a flood as people such the Buryats fall under Russian control will turn to the east to escape their situation.

I am still thinking about more ideas for this this. In the long term Buddhism in Alaskya will be divided by ethnicity but will gain additional energy with more surges from Eurasia. Buddhism might eventually become a unifier for different peoples from East Asia if theological differences can be resolved and these peoples feel the need for common ground/

The rise of the USSR will certainly lead to more Kalmyks arriving along with Mongols. There is the likely hood that these new immigrants will ethier fight with or join native Americans depending on how much of their nomadic nature is retained. Their society will be held together by Tibetan Lamanic Buddhism, monks and/or priests may be the civilian leaders when they make their new settlements.

Buddhists in Alaskia may very well become a target of Russian imperial authorties prior to independence, if they become so organized and apparant that they are seen as a threat or compeition to the Russian population. Ethnic Russians may follow the Kalmkys into remote settlements.

Eventually Kalmkys might be given a desginated area almost like a reservation or will be forced to disperse.

I think though that after the 1940's there will be something of a renewal for Buddhists in Alaska, assuming that a democratic government relaxes controls and offical discrimnation. Also will be the phenemon of former Christians becoming Buddhists, Russian intellectuals with orientalisim would make their own new school of Buddhist thought distinct from the Tibetan traditions of the minorities. A school possibly called New World Buddhism that is more friendly to Monothesim, and interested and meditation. I am thinking that the "Pure Land" concept in Buddhism would take on a literal meaning where converts beleive that the pure land is Alaska and more specifically the secluded Rocky Mountains.

New World Buddhism will primarly be the young mostly whites in Alaskia but that dosen't mean they will be cut off from original Buddhism. Followers might invite Mongol or Kalmyk holy men to teach them.

By the late 20th century Buddhism will be a small but established and visible minority with different sects related to ethnicty and location. Perhaps 5-15% of the population could be Buddhist.

71.80.49.114 23:36, January 8, 2016 (UTC)

I am Stepintime (talk) 23:41, January 8, 2016 (UTC)


 * Greetings, Stepintime. I'm very happy to see that you've taken an interest in this timeline and wish to add to it. You are more than welcome to do so, but all I ask is that you read and follow the Editorial Guidelines:0:0 before doing so.


 * I hope you don't mind constructed criticism, because I do see a few holes which should be addressed. The first being the desire of the Mongols to resettle themselves to avoid "outside intrusion." From what I've been able to read, there doesn't appear to be any examples from OTL to support this (at least from what I've been able to find). By no means does this discount Mongols from migrating to Russian America and Alaska, rather I believe the autonomy angle should be played down a little.


 * I'd also tone down rhetoric of Buddhist/Mongol discrimination by the Russians. From what I've been able to pick up, the Russian Empire was tolerant towards Buddhists, with many Tsars being on board. I highly doubt the Empire would work to discourage or otherwise impede Buddhists from settling in Alaska (let alone anywhere in the Empire). The real trouble would come from the Soviet Union, which viewed the religion as a threat towards State Atheism and as a cohort of the Japanese. Not to say discrimination wouldn't exist, but that it would've come from the people of Russia (rather than its imperial government). It could also be likely that Asian Alaskans (more so than Buddhists) would be discriminated in a similar manner to those of OTL Canada and the United States.


 * I could see Buddhism becoming a unifying force for many Asian Alaskans, though it should be noted that Alaska would be a and would be more comparable to the United States (in this respect). Asian Alaskans would see themselves as Alaskans first.


 * Other than that, the rest could work out well. I already foresee Buddhism to be the third largest religion in Alaska (after Christianity and Judaism). I could easily see non-Asian Alaskans turning to Buddhism and going as far to invite foreign monks to teach Alaska (though Alaskan-born monks would be just as likely). I could definitively see Buryat, Kalmyk, and Mongol emigration expanding under Joseph Stalin (especially if their lands are taken away from them in Eurasia).


 * I don't believe I'm missing anything. I do hope this was helpful. I look forward to see what you have next. -- 06:01, January 9, 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your thorough response. In reference to the Kalmyks it looks like they did endure enrorchment under the reign of Catherine the Great, source. Eventually this led to the last khan of the organized Kalmyk Khante in leading a move of 90,000 of his people to Dzunguria. Many did not survive the journey, the move destroyed the organzation of the Kalmyks though some still remained in the area. Many dispered throughout Russia and the Kalmyk men joined the army in many of Imperial Russia's wars.

As far as Mongols in Mongolia I know very little about them prior to the Bolshivek destruction.

I agree that in the Stalin period there would be a huge second or third wave of immigrants (the first wave happening in the 19th century). I agree with you that the ordinary Russian people may discrimnate aganist any non Christian stranger of asiatic looking origin.

Another thing I would like to touch on is that sooner or later no matter what happens in the beggining there will be an urban exprience of Asian Alaskians and I don't want make it quite like the Chinese OTL but I would like to explore their experience in the cities. Perhaps as aritsians and shopkeepers. I wonder how much conflict there might be between the different Buddhist ethnitices, if they would work together of fight for limited resources (space in cities).

To elaborate for the Non Asian converts there will be a few who show interest in the colonial period, and make writings about the asia Buddhists in Alaska and create interest. They might also be the founders of the New World Buddhism movement, this will inspire the conversion of whites much later. In modern day ATL ethnic Russian Buddhists would be active on college campuses.

I have read the editorial guidelines, :). They make sense.

Also, I was just wondering about the major port cities all people in Russia would use to sail to Alaska, it might be Validvistock eventually if the Russians take Northern Manchuria like OTL but early one maybe it would be somewhere out of Salkhalin?

Stepintime (talk) 06:52, January 9, 2016 (UTC)


 * Hey Nuclear Vacume,


 * Just wanted to let you know that I am mostly done with the two articles I have made, . I have to go back to real responbilities so I wont have much time to edit this but in the general Buddhism article I might like to add more sub headings about places, and charities just to make it more complete.


 * Do you object to using made up people in this timeline? I have some mentioned in my article but that can be changed, with your permission I might like to eventually make articles about two or three major Buddhists. This would primairly me to give little biogrophies describing their growing up in this Alaska and to connect them to the mainstream. This would be in the case of the current leader of the Alaskan Lamaists.


 * Also, what do you think about the masscare that takes place in the socialist republic? I worried that might be too extreme but I do like the idea being there in some shap or form.


 * I was also thinking that it would make sense to make an article about Asian Alaskans to distinguish them from Buddhists though there would be overlap the Asian page would mostly have its own content, focusing more on the working, and economic conidtions on immigrants. Also would be coverage of Asians dropping out of their traditonal religions or converting to Orthodoxy to be more mainstream. Also what might be included is information about urban enclaves, criminal organzations and secret socities.


 * I hate to sound like I am piling on but I have one more idea..


 * What about a production of source material from Alaskans? To clairfy memiors or historical fictionalzations to describe the experinces of certain Alaskans.  Whenever I had free time I might work on this.  Here are some exmples


 * - A native American (perhaps a Haida woman) converting to Orthdoxy but then witnessing the brutallity on her native people by christians
 * -A St. Petersberg Merchant seeing opprotunity in Russian Alaska right after the Spanish War, comes to Somana himself to develop the land profitbly, still finds land mosly untouched.
 * -An American or English Doug settler coming to terms with Russian rulers in the late 19th century, his family got there before it was bought by the Russian Empire.
 * - An Asian Rusian arriving as a fresh settler and interacting with native Americans.
 * - An ethinic Russian religous minorty- ie: An Old Beliver or a Protostant going to Alaska for safe haven?
 * - A lawyer taking part in the political finalzization of Alaska's reunifcation in the 40's
 * - A teacher describing the events of the Alaskan wars in the 50's


 * Three Shielkov ideas ...
 * -A miner in Shielkov that at least initally supports the Alaskan Socialist Republic in the mist of the Russian Revolution OR
 * A Soviet Gulag prisoner being sent to a workcamp in Socialist Alaska (if there is such workcamps otherwise no)  OR
 * A NKVD agent being sent to the Alaskan Socialist Republic to monitor the situation among his fellow comrades


 * - An ethnic Russian housewife's reflection on the election of Kardash and the Bering Strait Crisis. Her opinions change following the crisis, perhaps she might start thinking about asserting her indepence (ie: If Kardash gets elected, its a big soical change, anything is possible) Or she might not depends on the flavor.


 * - The experinces of a post Soviet immigrant in the late 80's early 90's comparing their mother country to Alaska.


 * The memiors would be on their own pages, and would be the writings of these characters directly.


 * Thanks for reading for allowing me to write proposals in the first place
 * Stepintime (talk) 22:04, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * P.S: I wonder how unversties in Alaska will be, there is a public system isnt there?
 * P.S.S I feel scattared I keep coming up with questions.
 * How do you code all of those wikipedia links, also how do you code Russian words into the text just like wikiepedia? It looks really cool.

Do forgive me for the delayed response. I've had a lot on my plate these past few weeks. I did notice your two articles and they both look great. However, may I suggest we merge them into a single article? The reason I say this is because both articles refer to the same subject, just from different angles.

I would personally prefer that all peoples mentioned across this timeline have an equivalent in OTL. In fact, I've taken the extra steps and looked into the ancestries of many people to see who'd likely be Alaskans ATL. So yeah, I can see if this sounds frustrating. You can leave those mentioned on your two articles alone for now (no harm done), but I'd refrain from making any personal articles for now. Though thinking about it, I could see many Asian Americans/Canadians potentially being Alaskans ATL, so you can take a look through there and see what comes up (if you want).

Do forgive me, but I don't quite understand what you mean by "massacre." Are you saying you want there to exist one for this timeline, or you think the situation of OTL should remain the same? Do forgive me.

Those story ideas sound wonderful. Though I'm not too sure how to incorporate them into the timeline (other than its own page). You are more than welcome to expand them in detail if you wish, and we can work out the missing details.

As for Alaskan universities... It never really crossed my mind. I'd assume it be a similar situation to the United States/Russia (at least for the time being).

In regards to coding, the Editorial Guidelines give instructions on how to do this for both Wikipedia articles and Russian America articles (link here).

And no need to worry about the amount of content. Curiosity is a great thing to have. I welcome all ideas. -- 03:00, January 25, 2016 (UTC)


 * No prob Nuclear Vacume thanks for the reply,


 * Sure the articles will be merged pronto.


 * I have taken a look at the Asian Canadians since reading, and the Buddhist Canadians, I should be able to find people and replace the fictonal characters.  Would it be possible though to possibly use OTL people from Eurasia if suitable Canadians and Americans cant be found?


 * The Masscare I am talking about is  the one I wrote about in the History of Buddhism article, I think that the Socialist Soviet Alaska acting on orders from the USSR would certianly engage in destruction of religious locations and have massive exceutions resiters and suspected resisters.


 * I think the memiors should collectively be on a single page, with each memior having their own heading. Just to clarify the characters don't have to be real people right? Because they are not high profile, and they won't have their own personal pages.


 * I am thinking about Ethic Pages in the long term, like you have for Russian and Ukranian Alaskans but I am not sure if they should all be under an Asian page or if they should have their own pages, in an Asian page each major group would have their own headings.


 * Mongol Alaskans


 * Manchurian Alaskans- Manchuria is still a distinct country in this ATL so this group may be distinct as well.


 * Chinese Alaskans


 * Possibly Japanese and Korean pages but only if they had at least a half page content each.


 * Turkish Alaskans?-


 * Ah Editoral Guidelines, thakns for the reminder. :). Special Thanks for allowing contributions


 * Stepintime (talk) 04:29, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. Feel free to ask me if you require any genealogical help.

In regards to the massacres during the Alaskan Wars, I highly doubt they would take place. Though Communist Alaska would gain support from the USSR, I doubt they'd take direct orders from them. In fact, I've been considering the possibility that the Alaskan Socialist Republic becomes a home for and his teachings. Sorry for going off on a tangent.

Though Communist Alaska would be the worst place for Buddhists, I don't think it'd be an actual massacre. Monasteries would be destroyed and Buddhists would either have to assimilate or leave. Violence could erupt (no questions asked), but only in a few areas (such as Nushagak and Unalaska). All-in-all bad, but nothing genocidal in nature.

As for the rest of Alaska, nothing close to the Alaskan Socialist Republic. For these regions, think of the relations between Asians and Europeans being similar to how African Americans (or Asian Americans) were treated in the US. Riots and violence, probably. State-sponsored prejudice and massacres, likely not. Hope that helps.

The memoirs could be "fictional stories" set within the timeline, written and based on ATL experiences. If that helps.

I would hold off on creating any more ethnic pages for now. Because I don't wish to copy and paste Wikipedia articles, I've been considering to merge the already existing pages into a single article. So any additional ancestral groups can easily be added and expanded upon.

Also forgive me, I forgot to answer your question about Russian words. The simple answer is that I've enabled the use of the Russian keyboard on my PC, so I can switch between English and Russian at will (хорошая собака). Your computer likely has this in its settings, but it's not a requirement if you don't need it. There also exists Cyrillic keyboards you can use online. And if all else fails, just copy and paste from Wikipedia. Hope that helps you out. -- 05:37, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

Map Mistake?
I'm not sure if I am doing this right, but I wanted to mention something I noticed in your Russian American timeline in regards to the city of Vladikaskady. I am assuming that Portland, Oregon is your inspiration, as you use the Portland flag and mention that it is located on the OTL Columbia River. However, your map of the various governorates shows Vladikaskady located along the southern Willamette River.

Anyways, I'm loving your timeline. Having lived here all my life and having many first generation Russian friends growing up, this has been a wonderful read and a fun mental game to run around in my head. And I'm only being picky because I live here, lol. Sorry.

97.120.9.200 21:59, February 1, 2016 (UTC)JustMe


 * Thank you so much for mentioning this. I honestly though I already updated that map, guess I completely forgot. ^^; I recently recycled the name Vladikaskady from one area to another, hence the reason it was mislabeled. I went ahead and corrected the map. -- 00:00, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

World War II Article


This topic is for KingSparta300 and their interest in working on an article for World War II.

The overall scenario that I've been toying around with stems from Japan loosing the in the early 1900s. Despite being able to regain lost ground following the Russian Revolution, the blow was enough to make Japan more pragmatic in their imperial expansion and overall relations with the West. This would include focusing more on Korea and the like.

In China, the situation would also be different. The Russians/Soviets would continue to hold onto and, thereby absorbing much of the Communist forces in the region. Germany also to support China economically and militarily, allowing the KMT to hold onto power and effectively push the Communists out. China would become part of the Axis Powers during the onset of the war, not Japan.

Much like Germany and Italy, China also looked to expand their influence and re-establish China as a global power. China invades and occupies, , , and possibly could go as far as. China would attack Manchuria during and subsequently Korea, resulting in Japan declaring war and siding with the Allied Powers.

Japan would attack China in a manner similar to OTL's. Despite being aided by the Allies (especially in raw materials), Japan is virtually fighting China alone until Germany surrenders. The war in China ends when nuclear bombs are used against Chinese cities. This forces China to surrender quickly, but is also meant to be a message against the Soviet Union and Japan (a la OTL).

I've written more in my sandbox (here and here). I hope this helps you out. I look forward to seeing what you can add to this. -- 21:59, February 6, 2016 (UTC)