Talk:Scramble for Africa (Map Game)

The Dutch had their colonial heyday in the 17th century. I don't see why they would have to wait to colonize. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:57, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

may I join as france? God Bless the United States of America 20:59, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but why end in 1914? Why not let it last a little longer, possibly towards the abdication of European powers from Africa? 1994 is when about every African nation gained independence but I would recommend that it end in 1947 when the Cold War began. BlackSkyEmpire 21:28, February 21, 2011 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

At the start in this timeframe, the dutch are fighting a war and unrest in Belgium. The limits are all there for a reason.

The end-date is 1914 because of the First World War. As myself and Collie agreed, fighting that war would just lead to fighting and a pre-mature end to the game.

I have also removed all but the first three mods from the list. It may not have been noticed, but it is there as a limit.

GB, France has already been claimed by Pita. All you needed to do at the time was add your name to the list as France.

Lordganon 04:21, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

Color changing and explaining the rules
i forgot to explain, but I'm reverting the colors because they're not accurate. United States was supposed to be orange, hence its presence in Liberia. Portugal was to be pink, since Mozambique and Angola, the pink territories were Portuguese, and please, post something in the sections by year.Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:15, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think that doing

How do you edit the map,and when do we start?God Bless the United States of America 03:24, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

My bad with the colors. Was not looking at a small map when I did them, lol. GB, maps will be adjusted - likely by myself or Collie, but who knows - with each passing year. By the sounds of things, Collie wants us to just start. Lordganon 04:57, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for starting early, I read LG's comment and thought we were supposed to start, sorry for the trouble! God Bless the United States of America 01:11, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see how you could get that. Lordganon 04:20, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Before I forget, I'd like to add as well that your post, GB, would probably have been removed anyways - The Russians have ports in the Arctic and on the Baltic Sea they can use, and wouldn't really need permission to get through the Straits anyways. Lordganon 11:29, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the only problem though is that it would take much longer to use the Baltic ports, and they would have to stop in several nations to keep provisions. Plus, a alliance with the Ottoman Empire could allow them to eventual takeover the entire middle east and much of north africa. God Bless the United States of America 13:58, February 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * that's exactly why Russia has restrictions on expansion.Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:53, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

The Russians and Ottomans would never, ever, agree to an alliance of any kind. And, as stated, the Ottomans would not block the Straits unless the two are at war, which happen in this game as per otl. Lordganon 14:06, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yes,I agree completely guys,I was just thinking of possiblities.So,are we allowed to start now?God Bless the United States of America 19:13, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Starting Positions
Figured that I would list these, as some of them are pretty small:


 * France - Dakar and a small part of the Guinea Coast
 * Great Britain - The Gambia, Cape Colony, Sierra Leone, and part of the Guinea coast
 * Spain - Small territories on the Gulf of Guinea as well as the cities of Ceuta and Melilla near Spain itself
 * Denmark - Part of the Guinea Coast
 * Netherlands - Part of the Guinea coast
 * Portugal - São Tomé and Príncipe in the Gulf of Guinea, coastal Angola and Mozambique, and Guinea-Bissau (Between the Gambia and Sierra Leone)
 * Ethiopia - Most of Modern Ethiopia
 * Ottoman Empire - Most of the North African Coast pledges some sort of shaky allegiance - hence the expansion restrictions - and they control Egypt and most of the Sudan as well.

Other countries start with no territories. The Kingdom of Morocco, a non-playable state, is also present and will need to be dealt with. And no, you cannot just "take it over." So don't even try it.

Lordganon 04:57, February 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Can we start now?Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:28, February 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Definitely. Were waiting on you to give the say-so. Lordganon 10:03, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

1825
is better than

1825
Thanks! PitaKang 19:19, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

Morocco
Was hoping I wouldn't have to say this - it should have been obvious - but you cannot just declare "alliances" or the like with Morocco or the other marked non-playable nations on the map. These are not tribal nations, but actual non-playable states. Pita, I have removed your reference to the alliance. It is something you could discuss on the talk page and get, but not simply declare. Lordganon 16:51, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, okay sorry. Then could we discuss a French-Moroccan alliance? PitaKang- (Talk|Contribs) 20:30, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

Much better. I think that it would be possible, though you'll need Crim or Collie to agree as well. Lordganon 15:32, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Map
So will we be using one map in all or one per year? And will it be updated at the end of each turn or the beginning of the next turn? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:46, February 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * The 1825 turn already ended? so use one map per year, at the end of each turn, with the new map being in the section.The initial map cannot be changed.Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:10, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. I would make one but I'm not sure where you want it or what you want it to be called. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:03, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

We'll give Bacon and Stark a day to make their moves, and if they don't we'll post a map. I figure as well that the unclaimed power of Denmark will expand a pixel or two, and the same will happen to Bacon's nation, and in some areas to Stark's (already borders the Sahara, after all), if neither makes their move. Lordganon 04:10, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Are we going to let everyone make their own changes or are the admins going to update maps by themselves? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:22, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

One update is always better than six, and saves a lot of fighting about size, people shrinking the colonies of others, etc. I've got a version of the map with what moves made so far on it, just waiting on Stark and Bacon. Lordganon 04:27, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Oops. Completely missed that Stark made his move, lol. At any rate, Bacon made his move, so a map will be forthcoming very shortly. Go ahead and make moves for 1826, now. Lordganon 06:12, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't think waiting for everyone to post is that efficient in this game. Why not one turn per day? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:19, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Too fast. People will miss it, or not end up posting, leading to them putting the things in afterwards when we're actually on the next year. Fighting will erupt, and the game will die. Not waiting for all to post, but I'm trying to post on their pages to remind them, and give them a day to do so. Trying to aim for once every two days, lol. Lordganon 08:14, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Disscussions
Keep discussion off the main page, guys. It is for the game, not issues. Talk about them here, on the talk page, like you should.

Since it was agreed, I took off the Jan~ reference. I also put spaces in GB's post, changed Crim's to east like he meant, and removed the reference to Ifni. It was Spanish from 1476-1524, and then once again from 1860 to 1969. Not in 1825, at all - it was under the control of Morocco, as seen on the map.

Lordganon 12:07, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

No one said Spain couldn't re-occupy it… If Morocco wants to retaliate, go ahead. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 14:52, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Did you not read how Morocco works here? You cannot just "seize" a city of an actual nation-state like that. Seriously. Edit reversed. Lordganon 15:30, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

I read exactly how it works. Moroccan-Spanish war commence… Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 15:44, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Then you did not understand it. "Alliances and the like." I was hoping to avoid going into a list. This includes war, which Spain at this point is not capable of fighting anyways, trade, and basically any diplomatic relations. You will have to ask and get approval of fighting with Morocco, just like Pita does for an alliance, before it can go ahead. Lordganon 17:56, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Uh ok? May I? Since Morocco is aligned with France, I guess it could be considered a continuation of the Napoleonic wars… Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:12, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

2 of 3 mods will have to approve the measure - and you won't get it from me. And, as of yet, the measure proposed by Pita has not been approved. Lordganon 09:31, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

Can we start the next turn?Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:39, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Really should wait for the map to be put up. Like I said, give them a day to do something. Been around 7 hours, I figure we can wait a bit more. I'll give notice faster in the future, trust me. Lordganon 11:45, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

You think that is possible a map each 5 turns?Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:47, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Would lead to fighting and an abrupt end to the game. Most people don't get that they need to read what others write normally, and that would make it far, far, worse. Lordganon 00:16, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Map is up. Let the new year begin! Lordganon 06:28, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Pita, Vietnam is not somewhere you need slaves, and was not French until later on. Haiti has long been independent by 1826 as well.

As for the offer.... well, I just can't bring myself to ally with the BBB, especially given the context of Sweden, so the answer will be no.

Lordganon 17:28, March 1, 2011 (UTC)

Map is up! Next! Lordganon 12:53, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

Kenny, there's no way you can establish that many colonies at once. That's so many more than Spain could realistically make that it's not funny. Choose one - and not the Mombassa one, as there are the mentioned minor states there, nor the Abidjan one, as that's already French. Lordganon 17:54, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware the river was names after someone named Orange. I just made that up so it's easier for me to remember. The Orange River is really close to orange-producing regions, so why not. Cite me if I'm wrong. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:33, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

The nearest such region is South Africa, near the cape, which has a very different climate from where you're talking about. The Orange River Basin for the most part is far too dry even try to support such a crop without modern help, which you're a hundred or more years off of, and even where its not you're not getting at for a long time. Unless it just rained, which obviously only lasts for a very short time in spring, the area is is desert scrubland or outright desert, until you get quite far inland. There's a reason it's only mining towns and the native bushmen in the area except right on the coast, where they depend on fishing, lol. Lordganon 13:36, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

If you say so… I misread a source that said citrus farmers were affected by irrigation, rather than citrus farming necessitated irrigation. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:00, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Somebody knows what means Edo in Russian?Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:19, March 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nothing, but it's the name of a tribe, and an otl province, in that area. Lordganon 22:11, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * What happened that 1829 don't start?Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, March 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Been too busy to make a map, or the like. Had to move my brother and sister in law during the last two days, lol. Too tired to do it now. Tomorrow. Lordganon 08:01, March 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * No need to.i already did one.somebody can get the map to the resolution that it was until 1828?Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:07, March 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. I thought this was dead for a while. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 02:56, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Heh. I fixed it and added in the couple of missed moves, lol.

Blacksky, Italy cannot move until 1870. I thus removed your post. And no, there is nothing you can do until then.

Lordganon 19:13, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Pita, slavery was not finally banned in France until the 1840s. The resumption of the slave trade, however, works, for now. And, for the record, people, the Europeans countries after 1848 will have banned slavery. Only the Americans (until the Civil War), the Ottomans (until 1876) and Ethiopia (basically forever, as it was 1923 in otl, and even that wasn't done by the time Italy conquered them, lol - so whenever that player wants to, really) will have slavery of any kind after then, though it may still be possible to sell to Brazil until the 1880s Lordganon 12:56, March 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * In fact, the slavery was abolished in Brazil in 1888, but the slave trade was prohibited in 1850.This would mean that selling slaves to Brazil only would be possible until 1850.Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:44, March 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, they smuggled slaves into Brazil up to the bitter end. That ban never held up until the demand for new slaves there went away with the banning in 1888. Lordganon 09:36, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

So are you slowly inflating all the colonies if the people don't post? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Usually a little bit every couple turns. Can't let you and me take over the whole continent, lol. Only tiny amounts, far less than if a move had been made, and no new colonies, either. Lordganon 09:37, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Thought I'd make a note here - the current Dutch and Danish areas were bought by the Brits in 1872 and 1850, respectively. I was thinking that if neither is controlled by someone, that maybe we could do that here as well. They'll be surrounded by them and the French at that point anyways, lol. Lordganon 15:43, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Kenny, there's no way you can expand that far up the Orange River. Not only is a third of that thing well over 3 times as wide as that colony is right now, but it's also in territory that qualifies as being very slow expansion - malaria - until 1850. Lordganon 16:18, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but if Spain can't, Britain can't either. Kay? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:21, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Not to worry Kenny, I know full well how far that they can expand. Lordganon 05:49, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Spain states it will accept the French proposal, if it pays back for the Napoleonic Wars by ceding the desert part of its Senegal colony north of OTL Tiguent to Spain's Río de Oro colony, as well as a small repayment in money. ~kenny

We will give reparations, and half of the Senegal colony. Deal? ~Pita

If France would rather divide the colony in half, then it's a deal. Does the fifteenth parallel sound like a good place to divide? ~kenny

As before, Sweden declines the alliance. Pita, I can't bring myself to do it, no matter how often you offer, lol. Lordganon 05:52, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Err.... Pita, you are aware that the original deal offered meant only a fairly small loss of territory, while the new counter you made is a ton more than that, correct? Lordganon 13:44, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make much of a difference to me, because right now it's basically desert and unsustainable land. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 14:47, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, on the map, I see two dents on the southern part of the Nueva Lérida colony which seem to represent two Orange Rivers, even though there's only one mouth. Could we pick one and have the two "upriver expansions" from two different turns compound onto each other? Also, I found that the actual Orange River mouth is between the two on the map, but I don't really care, I just don't want to be cheated out of some expansion onto a valuable water supply :P Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:32, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

The southern one is the Orange River. Not just on this map, but on the real one as well. Have a closer look. It will go further on the next one, I assure you. Lordganon 10:45, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's okay. See map at right. I superimposed onto the current map. Would you mind combining both river expansions into the middle? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Kenny, the southern one is the Orange on the map. End of discussion. Lordganon 05:08, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Kenny, Pita has not agreed to the full context of your proposal yet, and it will not be added to the map until he does. Notice the lack of reply after the last question? Lordganon 05:57, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed you two came to an agreement. I'll add it to the next map. Lordganon 10:29, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

Since Sumo hasn't made a single move, would there be objections to his removal from the game? Lordganon 10:09, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

He hasn't been logged in in over a month according to the users list, so yeah, leave a message on his talk page and if he doesn't respond, remove him. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 14:54, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

Note left.

Kenny, your move is too much. It's the same issue as before. Just not possible to do it in a year. Forts, even bad ones, take time, and those colonists in anywhere close to those numbers wouldn't be possible in a year either. The area you're looking to expand into is a semi-desert environment as well.

Lordganon 16:27, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

Well, keep in mind that there is really no major economy in these colonies, except expansion. The only hope is expansion. Say there are about 600 prospectors and 400 Filipinos taking part. Within a month, it takes 15 days to conquer the small area around a fort at maximum, so there are fifteen days to build a fort (travel time for 10km is negligible). With 1,000 people and fifteen days, there is definitely time. Of course there are other factors. But the quickest time a house has ever been built in is 3 hours. This only has to be a pile of wood that is organized to make a structure. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:17, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

I agree to your proposal on Senegal. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:25, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

You forget that there is no wood in this area that you can build anything with, nor any stones or the like. The Filipinos would take most of the year to arrive, and there's time to both organize and get the prospectors there too. And that's besides it being in an area, as noted previously, where expansion is highly restricted at this time. You've got to haul in food, and water, as well. It's not possible to do that much.

It's just too much, kenny. That distance is just not possible in a year. Not even two, or three. Aim for a couple-three of the forts, at most. Any more than that isn't happening.

Lordganon 01:42, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

Pita, I've already declined it twice. What on earth makes you think offering it again would do anything? lol Lordganon 01:43, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

I do have evidence that there is wood even if just shrubs and bushes, etc, which could be used at least for the purposes of a fort, not to mention a large amount of lumber would later be imported from Spanish Guinea to reinforce the forts. Did you realize that 33 people built Fort Clatsop in 15 days? At that rate, 1,000 people are capable of building 737 forts in a year! Say we have only 400 men from the colony, no Filipinos. If we split them into 12 groups of 33, the groups could each build a Fort Clatsop of their own within 15 days, not including transportation. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:21, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

Shrubs are brushes are useless for making anything, and only work for firewood. They only have thin, twisted, weak, pieces of wood at best.

You have to import the wood to build them at all.

"...construction took place over the month of December, with the expedition moving in by Christmas Day 1805."

From the article on Fort Clatsop. That's half again the time you quote, with trees on station. You have to import the wood to even build at all here, making it worse for you timewise.

Once again, it's not possible and you need to turn it down in size. It's right in the rules of the game, kenny, that you are restricted in expanding any further.

Lordganon 11:14, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

Here's my source. Keep in mind the fort had to be resistant to winter while these do not. Also, it doesn't take more than a month or two to import from Spanish Guinea. Also, while other countries are restricted, it says Spain is not one of them. All it says is "be plausible" and I have shown that it is plausible. Also, note that I didn't expand any other colonies besides Nueva Lerida during the turn on purpose. Did you realize that 144 km is only 1/15 of the course of the river? So that's even less than one of my other turns which annexed 1/9 of it. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 14:48, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

That only says that had very rough low walls, and crude huts, built in that time span. They didn't finish it until the end of the month, by that page.

The restriction you are hitting is in the rules: "The interior of Africa will be available to be explored after 1850." Rule number 11.

You are not being plausible. Closer to the coast, it may have been so. But here it's not. As one of the moderators of this game, that is my verdict. Change it, or I will.

Lordganon 17:32, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'll cut the amount of forts in half. However, I ask one thing, and you already agreed to this so it isn't much, I just want clarification. The Cape Colony has been appearing to expand rather quickly. If Spain is incapable of expanding along the Orange River in x amount of years, clearly the British at the Cape Colony would have the same amount of expansion difficulty in the area. So leave me at least a good 10px radius. I made a post a little while back saying the Spanish began training the people around the river to recognize the Union Jack and start shooting at them :P So yeah, just clarifying. Of course things would be different if the actual player for Britain Baconton came back and started posting, but as long as you keep updating the map, keep a reasonable area for Spain to expand into. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:05, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

Colony Names
Call this more for map reference than anything else, but it's annoying to have to go back and find out which colony names is where every map, lol. For atl ones, of course.


 * Spain: Río de Oro (El Aaiún and Villa Cisneros, otl Spanish Sahara region), Lérida Baja (otl Lüderitz - part of Nueva Lérida), Río de Naranjas (orange river mouth - part of Nueva Lérida), San Guillermo (Walvis Bay - part of Nueva Lérida), Santa Alejandra (Sassandra, near Ivory Coast), Lérida Alta de las Naranjas (inland Orange River - part of Nueva Lérida), Mayote, Nuacjot (otl Nouakchott area - part of Río de Oro)
 * Sweden: Swedish Congo (mouth of the Congo river plus land on the ocean from either bank), Mombassa (Kenya~ coastline), Mafia Island, Svart Peka (city in Swedish Congo, otl Pointe Noire), Trädavfisk (city in Swedish Congo, otl Matadi)
 * Russia: Delta State (coastal Nigeria), Edo state (inland from Delta), Kogi state (north of Edo), Ekiti State (west of Kogi)
 * Portugal: Zanzibar
 * France: Le Grand Désert (Sahara Desert) is on the border

Lordganon 17:42, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Next turn
Somebody is noticing that nobody posts since 4 days ago?Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:42, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a map up in a couple hours, Collie. Lordganon 10:02, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Bit late, but updated. Lordganon 23:13, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Been five days now… No rush, just stating. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:06, April 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * exactly. we need a new map in two days, otherwise this game will be declared defunct for not advancing in 7 days (i read this in the rules for Map games).and my objective is to get this game going at least until 1870.Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:19, April 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't really mind if there's not a map every year. But it would be nice to have a good momentum going. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  23:52, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

Trust me when I say that that rule for map games isn't something we actually use, lol. I though it had been more like 3 days, to be honest. A new map'll be up later tonight. Lordganon 04:31, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

New map up. Lordganon 07:54, April 11, 2011 (UTC)