Talk:Europe 1430 (Map Game)

Introduction:

Hello everyone!

This is the talk page for Europe 1430 (Map Game). Here you can post any comments or paragraphs related to the game. You may ask questions and answer questions. Please be detailed, organized, and respectful, and try not to get into edit wars. After every 42 sections (questions or answer sections, or comment sections), this page will be archived. The first 42 sections has been archived to a article linked below. Make sure to stay consistent, and try not to be rude or overely critical. This article will be divided into two major sections, Discussion and Archives, further sub-divided into three minor sections: Questions/Answers, Comments, and Debates. Archives maintains a list of pages of archives of this talk page, which is below. Please leave all questions and answers under the Questions/Answers section, all comments and reviews under the Comments section, and all debates concerning the article or it's contents under the Debate section.

--Catherine 02:16, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Operator of Europe 1430 (Map Game) since User:ProfessorMcG handed over the postition to me

=Archives= The following is a list of all archive pages of this talk page.

Archive: Talk: Europe 1430 (Map Game) Sections 1-42

=Discussion= This is the discussion section, consisting of three minor sections: Questions/Answers, Comments, and Debates. Please list comments, questions/answers, and debates under the approiate sub-sections.

Questions/Answers
Please leave all questions and answers to questions about this map game here.

Comments
Look everyone, if you want to add something, fine. But stop just tacking another bit on the end of 1674. Its annoying. Bob 11:17, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, its actually against the rules, but no one listened to me the 9 million times I've mentioned it. Half the time I just delete everything tacked on if its my turn they tack it on to.Oerwinde 21:01, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

China
WTF......China would never change to European style ANYTHING at this time period (even with the several European countries people helping). In-Fact if china changed the style of anything and demanded like it dose that everyone do as the European's are, then it would be a bloody revolution near immediately from the now trained military (doesn't mind the training, but would HATE the fact that EVERYONE must do as the foreigners do). And the people would hate this even more. It is impractical, NAI IMPLAUSIBLE to happen.--DaBigUn 19:56, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Also, what would the king or the country gain from this? From all the other posts Shaung seemes to be pretty intelligent, but this just seems to go against the grain of his character. This is like the PM of India suddenly privatising much of the government, abolishing the caste system (and upholding the abolition), forcing the entire nation to dress like corporate execs, and then converting to LDS. BoredMatt 20:12, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

It also seemed like there was no resistance at all to the changes aside from a few nobles who were crushed immediately. These kind of sweeping changes are possible without mass rebellion, but they would have to be gradual over like 200 years.Oerwinde 23:56, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Peter the Great intiated reforms in Russia in less then 20 years. Shaung intiated reforms in China in about 15-20. --Catherine 00:34, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well yea, but the difference between the cultures of westeern europe and Russia are alot smaller than the differences between China and Europe. And Peter wasn't pretty much liberating 80% of his population from serfdom while he made said reforms, or changing his religion to one that most Chinese would never hae heard of, much less understand. He just centralized power and modernized. BoredMatt 00:53, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention he's giving equal power to women, something that people had a problem with in the 1900s let alone the 1600s.Oerwinde 16:52, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Peoples, this is not implausible. India modernized and became one of Asia's most prosperous and powerful countries in this map game simply because of adopting European technology, ideas, and customs. China can do so as well. It is possible AND plausible to happen. --Catherine 17:24, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

India was essentially modernized by force. the British colonial rulers basically suppressed the native culture for several hundred years. this is not a good analogy. you're also underestimating China's attitudes toward western culture. the only reforms any Chinese emperor attempted were the Hundred Days reforms. they're called that because the Emperor was OVERTHRONE after 100 days. China refused to accept that western ideas were supperior until the twentieth century. Destroyanator 17:31, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

I am not talking about Real-Life India, I am talking about the India in the map game. Anyways, if China modernizes and westernizes, it can challenge the supermacy of India, and perhaps the Middle East-Europe. It is very well possible to happen. --Catherine 17:48, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

You're completely ignoring the culture of China. ANYTHING that wasn't Chinese was considered stupid and inferior. the minute Shuang proposed any of these reforms, he would be stabbed and a new emperor would be proclaimed within minutes. taking advice from westerners was like taking advice from dogs, to the Chinese Destroyanator 17:55, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

No matter how smart or how charismatic or how imaginative Shuang is, you simply cannot:

A: Give equal rights to women, to the Chinese it would be like giving dogs a lawyer (remember these are the same people who widely practiced foot binding in the 1930's)

B:Set up massive learning institutions and schools for the lower classes. I don't think there would be much opposition to it socially, but the sheer amount of capital and labour it would require would bankrupt the country. Even if you do take all the nobilitie's capital.

C: Set up huge water and steam-powered factories. Again, mainly for the same reasons as B.

D: Force the Chinese to adapt to European culture. It just doesn't make sense. It does nothing for you except get 90% percent of the population pissed at you, and has no good effects.

E: Convert to Christianity. Ok, imagine if Obama converted to LDS. Imagine how much his support would drop. And this is a religion that is almost entirely practiced in the US, and we're a fairly tolerant country. Now imagine him converting to Bhuddism.

F: The big one.

1: knocking down the nobility a peg or two. Think of what would happen if Obama made a law making all the corporate execs become cubicle slaves. Who's gonna run the company? I'm sure that ther are plenty of qualified people, but there are a whole lot more unqualified people. If Shuang handed over control of provinces and towns and such to commoners, how is he going to know who is the best one to choose to replace the aristocracy? Also, the nobility is alot more than just 1-2% of the pop, like in European nations. China historically had around 15% of their pop. as the nobility, and that's a pretty big number if you think about it. Not to mention that you're disrupting a socioeconomic system that has been in place for thousands of years, and the inertia of the Chinese culture would plow right through any resistance at this point.

2: Taking the nobilitys income. This is pretty much impossible, as, even up to around 1800 OTL, 80-90% of the chinese nobilities capital was in the form of perishable goods, such as rice. Once you take away the nobilities wealth, then you are basically taking away directly what the peasants have made through their hard work, which is the exact opposite result of what Shaun's going for. You can't pay for the construction of massive factories with only bulk rice, either, you have to find a way to convert it into cash, and, as China's currency was at this point actually tied to different amounts of rice, this would cause massive hyperinflation.

BoredMatt 18:33, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

I see your point. However, reforming China is Shaung's life-long goal. Eventually, by the time he dies, pople across China will praise him for the success. China's economy and military would be number 1 in Asia, and it equals Europe-Middle East. By the time he dies in 1685 of old age, China is a European-style modern empire. --Catherine 23:57, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Misc
What group are France and Navarre a part of?

Navarre's british, France and Spain are their own group.

'''That was only discussed, no post had established the spain group. France is still part of the Hussite group.'''

France has no reason to be part of the Hussites, they have nothing in common.

'''When the Marseille pact broke up, all the founding members except for Wurzburg were part of the Hussite group. France was a founding member, the Marseille pact was established by allied states from the 2nd Italian War as a mutual defence pact.'''

'''France is Catholic, not Hussite, and again, they would have no reason to be in the Hussite League, as they would be overshadowed by the Bohemians and Italians. France is quite capable of holding her own, and I doubt she would gain anything from being part of an alliance, Hussite or not.'''

Ok, I went back and read it. France wasn't part of anything, but Spain and Portugal were part of the Hussite group. Which makes even less sense than France because at least France was allied with Bohemia and Italy, which were the main members of the Hussite league. So lets create a 4th group for Spain, Portugal, and France.

Portugal's already with the British, mainly because they've had so many royal marriages in both OTL and ATL. Plus, Portugal was with the Germanics during the Second Italian War, as was most of the British Group. And yea, it's likely that france and Spain are gonna stick together.

I am the owner of this map game
Ownerzmcown, I am the owner of this map game, so you cannot ban me. How about I ban you! How about that!

How about Oerwinde swoops in like a soaring eagle of liberty and justice, and just bans YOU!! How about that? He has the complete right to do that, you know.



True, but keep me as the absolute authority of this game. I have not done anything to earn a ban, my turns maybe implausible, but I stick to them. --Catherine 00:18, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

But he can take away your ownership of the game. He has complete authority over anything in the realm of map games.

Again, give me three plausable reasons how this could happen, other than you owning the game.

If you just go in and delete posts because you are feeling down, it's not a map game, it's just some eighteen year-old-girl playing with maps.

1. It is possible to happen

2. I am the owner of this map game

3. It adds suspense

And anyways, Oerwinde was the self-proclaimed master of map games. My Ages of Europe 1200: (Map Game) is independently ran, and he has no offical authority over it. --Catherine 00:26, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not self proclaimed. I was appointed by Mitro and the other mods.Oerwinde 00:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh. I thought you were self-proclaimed. Anyways, we are having a dispute over plausiblity and ownership of this map game. --Catherine 00:31, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw. I don't think being the operator of the game means you can break the rules. Plausibility is a rule, and overthrowing all the monarchies in europe is implausible.Oerwinde 00:33, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * You deleted my work. Anyways, at least Ages of Europe is independent and under my sole control. --Catherine 00:38, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I deleted it because its implausible. Not only is it implausible, but its also impossible. And while the Ages of Europe is under your sole control, I'm still the moderator of the map games, and if I get complaints that you are breaking the rules you've stated for your map, I can take action there as well. You are notorious on this site for being belligerant, implausible, uncooperative, and just plain an unpleasant person to deal with. I suggest you clean up your act.Oerwinde 00:42, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Oerwinde. And Caltharina isn't that bad, I'm guessing she was just feeling paticularlly vindictive tonight. BoredMatt 00:45, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Also, should we have some set rules for this if it ever happens again?


 * But Oerwinde, I did not give you authority for my map game. As such, your powers over my map game are limited. You cannot take control of a map game I CREATE and control. My Ages of Europe is seperate from the other map games, and my powers are in scope. And though I may be hard to work with, it is because I am bitter. --Catherine 00:46, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You are bitter because you are hard to work with. In the words of the eternal George Lopez, "It's a self-furfilling Propheletic"!!
 * But seriouslly, you wouldn't be bitter if you weren't acting like a rabid hedgehog right now.
 * And again, we should have some universal rules that apply to all map games, even to their creators/owners.
 * Well, I blocked her for a week. I'm sick of her, I'm sick of having people complain about her every week, I'm sick of her superior attitude. If she can't smarten up when she gets back, I'll permaban her.Oerwinde 01:02, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I blocked her for a week. I'm sick of her, I'm sick of having people complain about her every week, I'm sick of her superior attitude. If she can't smarten up when she gets back, I'll permaban her.Oerwinde 01:02, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I blocked her for a week. I'm sick of her, I'm sick of having people complain about her every week, I'm sick of her superior attitude. If she can't smarten up when she gets back, I'll permaban her.Oerwinde 01:02, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Can't say I'm not glad she's gone. BoredMatt 01:06, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Who's gonna admin the game, though?

Well, I've been doing it since day one, so I guess I'll keep doing it.Oerwinde 03:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Own it, I mean.

Why does anyone need to own it?Oerwinde 20:11, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Good point.

Ha, I'm glad I left this map game, although giving up my map game to Catherine maybe wasn't such a smart idea. Honestly, Catherine can do what she wants, let her be sole moderator fo Ages of Europe and let her see how many people are willing to deal with her nonsensical-ness, hopefully no one. It's her lesson to learn. ProfessorMcG 15:02, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Scandinavian Colony
It doesn't make any sense for Scandinavia to form a colony in the middle of Canada. Especially with the British colonies being its springboard. This means it has to travel all the way around through the strait of magellan, then all the way up to OTL BC, then go through the rockies and across the great plains all without the benefit of railroads. It would make much more sense for them to colonize africa, or use the suez and find somewhere the spanish or Jerusalemi haven't colonized in the east indies. Then they at least have a port and don't have to rely on someone else's port. If relations sour between them and the british the colony is doomed. Oerwinde 08:52, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

So since no one seems to object to my point I should just revert the part about the central canadian scandinavian colony?Oerwinde 15:59, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Atcually they do have a north coast. so as long as they have ships with strong enough hulls, they can simpley use the curcimpoler winds. Paaaad 18:43, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, modern Ice-breakers have a tough time, so I'm doubting ships in the 1600s can handle it.Oerwinde 20:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Paaaad 21:59, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Besides, even with the ships, the logistics of maintaining a port in that environment is daunting. There would be little to no food production other than fishing due to it all being tundra, and the ice floes would ensure that there would be no net fishing, so even fishing would be a smaller scale.Oerwinde 22:53, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

I surrender my authority
I hereby surrender my authority over Europe 1430 to Oerwinde. However, I request absolute authority over Ages of Europe. --Catherine 00:16, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty, we are free at last Ownerzmcown 00:21, July 3, 2010 (UTC) 00:21, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Portugal vs North African Republic
Why is Portugal invading the North African Republic?Oerwinde 17:40, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering about that as well. Wasn't NA more-or-less a vassal of Portugal, even after the split? BoredMatt 18:40, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

They split amicably, then someone who didn't read the history had them vote to join Portugal like 10 years later, so a rebellion was written in where the populace felt betrayed by their government giving up their sovereignty so soon after they had won it, and they regained their independence a few years later. They maintained close relations similar to the UK-Canada split.Oerwinde 07:51, July 21, 2010 (UTC)