Talk:Axis vs Allies Resurrection (Map Game)

Re:China
Hi, I was wondering whether I can be China in this game. I know I only have 16 edits (17 edits after publishing this) but on my previous account (UglyTurtle) I had 1,633 edits, so if that counts I qualify. Do I qualify for China? KawaiiKame (talk) 01:27, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

I mean, you had enough edits, so I don't see why not.

When?
When will the map game start? As there has been no start time listed yet. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here) 10:02, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

When I talked to MP yesterday, he said that the game would be starting sometime over the weekend. Saturn 10:18, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

Re: China Part II
Since China is in the middle of its Civil War, do I control all the Chinese factions or just the '''Kuomintang? '''

Just whatever faction you signed up for. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Note
Hello, this is QC (QuebecanCanada), I cannot post with my account as my computer broke down, my mobile broke down and my tablet broke down, so I have to use this computer, and on this one I am not logged in on my account, so I will have to post anonymously, this is just a Note not to revert my edits. - QC

Canada
Hey mods, why are all of my diplomacy actions deleted? Isn't that the point? You do know that Canada was separate enough from Britain to make its own decisions about foreign affairs, right?

~ Vatonica

You are aware that history has happened before 1933, right? You already have relations with half of these countries and the other half are basically fascist killing machines that bear no relevance to Canada.

18:40, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Am I not allowed to specify where my embassy is? That is important, and not clear in history. And can't I choose who I form relations with?

~ Vatonica


 * Please sign your statements. Also, you have embassies with most of those countries already.


 * 19:48, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Also, may I ask, why were my diplomacy turns crossed out (Although I am completly fine with the crossing out, jusk asking why) ~ QC

Please Answer my question. Isn't the point to choose which countries I form relations with? I have a strategy, and it involves Japan. Is that not allowed? And for the other countries, I'd like to specify where the embassy is and confirm that the other countries recognize me, so I ask for embassies in countries Canada already had embassies in. I find it useful to have that confirmation. There is no need to cross something out for it being useless if it does something. Vatonica

The relations have to be realistic. for example you can't have the Nazis ally with the FRench then take over Europe. That would be very ASBish, and map games like this are supposed to be realistic. Saturn 22:38, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

So basically, I can't change what I already have, and I can't do anything new. So basically, the map game has no point. Isn't the idea that it ISN'T excactly the same, and that's why it's interesting? Nothing interesting about doing the exact same thing as has already done before. If you want that to happen, then you can just write that yourself. Vatonica (I know I'm Right)

No, the point is that you can do whatever you want, but you have to be somewhat realistic at this moment in time. The Britsh Empire and its dominions had shaky relations between Japan and them, so it wouldn't be realistic to establish a major embassy. You can do things, but don't get all unrealistic from OTL. Saturn 00:47, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

So based on this, name a country that I don't have an embassy with already that you wouldn't reject. You rejected Venezuela even for reason I don't know. Vatonica

I didn't say anything about Venezuela at all. I would check to see what nations the British Commonwealth had close relations with, and then go from there. France might be a good start. Saturn 02:49, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Venezuela is a impoverished mess that is not doing well at this point in time, so we do not want to spend time and cash building embassy in Canada.The River Nile-2 (talk) 03:13, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Vatonica, you might as well quit the game if you kep this attitude. Canada getting relations with Japan? Not in a million years. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here) 10:25, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Sean, i think he was just asking. - QC

No, don't worry, I have stuff planned that will make my mark. Vatonica

Just because you "can", does not mean you "would". Many of these nations you are trying to build relations with you either A) Have relations with them already, B) Its dumb to build relaltions with at this point, or C) you would't have built relations with at this point.

Having this argument on chat kept getting the Westminster decleration thrown at me. Yea, that may have given Canada the power to control some aspects of foregin poliocy, but if you look at OTL, Canada had formal relations with few nations before the 1940s. So it's clear that even if they had this power, they didn't fancy using it. On top of that, Canada is, despite the westminster treaty, dominated by England. Same with the other domains.

Vatican City
Why has the purchase of the formal papal enclave in Avignon been crossed out? Its a castle, a few chapels, and limited gardens and small houses within the complex. Currently, France has to pour money into restoration of it. Additionaly, there is historic precent (from 1929-1930s) for the Holy See to purcahse many buildings and properities within Italy which served as extraterritoriality region for the Holy See. The border would not be closed to the French, but rather the same as the Vatican City and Rome's relationship. If necessary I could write a formal treaty if that would make everyone feel better. g greg e  (talk)  22:31, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Any mod response at all ? g greg e  (talk)  19:37, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

While I don't know who was responsible for the crossing out of your post, I can suggest a reasoning for it. The Vatican had just recently regained its independence and I feel like too the instance of losing said independence put a damper on any plans of expansion. This is just my idea, I'm not entirely sure what the reasoning of both the expansion and the crossing out is.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 19:42, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Its not like im trying to purchase vast swathes of land. Its a deal that made sense for both parties. The reason for expansion is to use it as a place to get to catholics in France and western europe (and to potentially have a place to go if the Italian government turns hostile - which the papacy was still no 100% trusting of mussolini and other italian leaders despite italia's large catholic population). If no one has any objections otherwise could the crossing out be rescinded? g greg e  (talk)  07:22, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Unless anyone else has other objections can I assume that I can purchase my few buildings as an extraterritoriality? g greg e  (talk)  13:51, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Whichever mod crossed it out, can they offer me some feedback please? g greg e  (talk)  19:52, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Hey yall I am alerting you that ill be gone for the next few days due to midterms. Thanks for understanding g greg e   (talk)  08:12, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Algorithim
We need an Algorithim. - QC

From what I have heard, I think that the algorithm is on Edge's sandbox. Not sure thought. Saturn 13:35, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

There is an algorithm, it's just that we keep forgeting to post it. There shouldn't be too many wars at this point either.

Liechtenstein
What happens to Liechtenstein? Someone just took it over yet I had already started the process for union with Switzerland. • 14:02, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

I am currently playing as Liechtenstein. I am open to having good relations with you, I just prefer to not be annexed. Also if you were hoping to annex Liechtenstein on turn one like that, that's probably implausible anyway. Tr0llis (talk) 14:09, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Liechtenstein was not going to be annexed. They would unite with Switzerland. It would have taken a few years to complete the union though, which I would still like to see through as it would benefit both nations. • 14:21, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Location
Location goes by the location of the nearest large concentration of troops.


 * Defending nation: at heartland: +5


 * On the border +4


 * A city close to the border +3


 * Far from the border +2


 * Opposite side of nation +0


 * No former presence +0 (you have to have troops in the location before the attack)

You can only have one; it will be of the Leader nation closest to the area.

Power
Aerial assault is tangent with location. For the attacker, your aerial power must be close enough to the location of attack, with your land nearby for the planes to return to.

Naval assault is only applicable when attacking a coast.

Land assault is also tangent with location. No requirements for land assault other than being somewhat near to the border.


 * Large aerial assault capability +3


 * Large naval assault capability +3


 * Large land assault capability +3


 * Medium aerial assault capability +3 (if enemy has no aerial power) +2 (if the enemy has aerial power)


 * Medium naval assault capability +3 (if the enemy has no naval power) +2 (if the enemy has their navy stationed in or around the location)


 * Medium land capability +3 (if three or more times larger than enemy) +2 (if less than three times larger than enemy)


 * Small aerial capability:+1


 * small naval capability:+1


 * small land capability: +1

Land, aerial, and naval is compounded. If you have large naval, medium air, and medium land, your score is 9 or 7. You cannot have medium aerial and large aerial at the same time.

Power is averaged in a coalition war.

''' Ahem: from now on, Power will work as a MULTIPLIER to development. You can increase your power, too, through development. '''

Industrial Strength

 * US, Germany, USSR,UK: +5


 * France, Japan: +4


 * Brazil, Italy, Czechoslovakia: +3


 * China, colonies of the UK and France, rest of Europe, Ethiopia, South America, Saudi Arabia, Turkey: +2


 * Everyone else: +1

Industry is added up for all participants in a war.

Scores will be changed over time.

Power Caps
Based on your industrial strength, you have a cap on your power


 * +5=power caps at 9


 * +4=power caps at 7


 * +3=power caps at 5


 * +2=power caps at 4


 * +1=power caps at 3

Development

 * Military and Economic: Power x # of turns of development in that past 10 years (20 turns)


 * Infrastructure: Power x # of turns of development in that past 10 years (20 turns) (defender only)

Nuclear Weapons

 * +7 if major city is destroyed


 * +7 for first nuclear attack


 * +6 if minor city is destroyed


 * +5 for retaliatory attack


 * +10 for the first nuclear attack ever (can only be used for the first use of a nuclear weapon)

Chance

 * The last digit of each editor's edit count. In case of PC-NPC war, NPC automatically gets 5.

Motive

 * Economic (Gains land, resorce, etc): +2


 * Defending territory not owned by nation more than 20 years: +3


 * Defending territory not part of heartland but held for more than 20 years: + 4


 * Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 4


 * Aiding an Ally: + 5


 * Pre-emptive Strike: +5


 * Taking back territory recently held by nation but since lost: + 6


 * Defending Heartland from attack that will not cripple/ destroy nation: + 6


 * Aiding Social/Moral Kinsmen who are being oppressed: + 6


 * Attacking to enforce politcal hegemony: +7


 * Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 8


 * Defending from nuclear armed nation that has a motive over 5 and has not yet used their weaponry: + 8


 * Defending from nuclear armed nation, regardless of motive, that has used said weaponry: + 9


 * Defending from attack that will wipe out nation and culture: + 10


 * Modifiers:


 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 3


 * Democratic government supported by people: + 4


 * Government not supported by people: -5


 * Troop Morale high (requires motive over 5, chance over 6, and stronger development scores in at least one category): + 5


 * Troop Morale low (any of the above: chance below 1, lower development scores in all categories, recent war penalty over 8): -5


 * Fighting Guerilla War: -5 attacker, + 1 defender


 * Implausibility: -2 per impluasibility


 * Warning: Negative motive scores are possible!!


 * Lead nation's motive, not average.

​Population

 * Greater than 100 million +20


 * Greater than 50 million +15


 * Greater than 30 million +10


 * Less than 30 million +5


 * Larger than opponents: + 2


 * 2x size of opponent's: + 5


 * 5x size of opponent's: + 10


 * 10x: +15


 * Every further order of Magnitude (eg 20x, 30x): +20


 * ONLY of the leading nations

Allies

 * Leader Nations: +5 each participating


 * Military aid: + 4 each participating


 * Supplies: + 3 each participating


 * Cultural Support: +1 each participating


 * Vassal: -2 each participating


 * Withdrawal: - 2 each nation which was participating and then left


 * ex: China (L) Vietnam (M) France (S) Britain (C) Japan (MV) Korea (SV) = 5 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 16


 * Please note that Vassals CANNOT give Cultural aid

Number of Troops

 * 1) of friendlies/# of enemies
 * Takes effect the 1940.5 turn.

Recent Wars

 * Each year in the past 15 years where nation was a...


 * Leader: -3


 * Military aider: -2


 * Supplier: -1

Participation
Both Sides get a +10 for this

Fighting on Multiple Fronts

 * Divide your power by the number of Fronts. Round to nearest whole number

Results
The equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/(z+y))*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. The minimum amount of territory you can win from an algorithm is 1%, otherwise it is a percentage of the loser's territories to two decimal places e.g. 13.69% not 13.69242%.

A great calculator for this is http://web2.0calc.com/ you just copy and paste the equations into the box and replace the letters with the numbers for that specific war. And then you just copy the answer to the main page. Or folks, just use Google. Their automatic calculator is a great aid in working out all this.

There will be on algo per phase/front of the war- NOT PER BATTLE, and ONLY for MAJOR wars.

If a certain war appears Implausible or otherwise, the mods reserve the right to change the amount of land gained.

Notice
My sister has an activity that ends at school which ends at 4:00 PM PST, which is also 00:00 UTC, when the turn starts. As such, I will have to post when I get home which will be after the new turn starts. I can't post the turn now because it is long and I have to go to bed soon. Thus I ask permission in advance to post my turn after the turn ends. Thank you KawaiiKame (talk) 05:46, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Permission granted. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Suggestion
I think we should recruit the former players of the first Axis vs Allies and other Axis vs Allies map games to play this one. - QC

They're already free to join (or already have). Mscoree (talk) 13:02, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

OK. - QC

Canada again
Mods, I need to have this settled. How much freedom from the UK do I have as Canada?

Vatonica (talk) 01:30, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion

Im not mod, but I found this- "Dominion status was formally defined in the Balfour Declaration of 1926, which recognised these countries as "autonomous Communities within the British Empire", thus acknowledging them as political equals of the United Kingdom; the Statute of Westminster 1931 converted this status into legal reality, making them essentially independent members of what was then called the British Commonwealth." I think you run everything except forieng relations with the UK, the other British Dominions and the British colonies. The River Nile-2 (talk) 02:16, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

You have some foregin relations freedom, but for the most part, that should fall in line with what the British do. Canada was isolationist in this era. Even though they could establish relations abroad, they didn't for various reasons.

Joining as a rebel organization
I might play here as the Azad Hind, a gorup of restless Indian nationalists. Is it allowed? IstocnoSarajevo (talk) 12:40, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Quited
The year was not turned by the mods, so I quit.The River Nile-2 (talk) 01:27, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, bye.

Me too. I obviously wasn't happy being Canada. I'd rejoin as a different country, if allowed, or as a terrorist organization, But not Canada. Vatonica (talk) 02:37, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

we could use some more asia and americas flavor...or eastern europe g greg e   (talk)  02:38, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Japan

 * Location: 4
 * Power: 6
 * Industrial Strength: Japan (4)
 * Development: Mill and Econ (6*4+(6*4)) 48
 * Chance: 8
 * Motive: Economic: 2
 * Modifier: Non. democratic gov spported: 3
 * Population: 20
 * Allies: Japan (L) Manchukuo (LV) Korea (MV) West Paupa (MV)=5+5+4+4-2-2-2=12
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 111

China

 * Location: 5
 * Power: 4/2=2
 * Industrial: 2
 * Development: Mill and Econ: (4*2) 8
 * Development: infra. (4*2) 8
 * Chance: 1
 * Motive: Defending from attack not destroying nation: 6
 * Modifier: Government supported: -5
 * Population: 20+5
 * Allies: China (L): 5
 * Recent Wars: (1) -3
 * participation: 10
 * Fronts: 2
 * Total: 62

Result
(111/62+111)*2)-1=.28

14% in a year, 21% in 2.

Discussion
Why is USSR even helping Japan? From what I know, relations between USSR and Japan were pretty bad since they have a lot of disputes and fought a series of border conflicts from between 1932 - 1945. I am aware that this game is different from otl, but I really have not noticed any particular change in relations between Japan and USSR. Seems rather strange for USSR and Japan to jointly invade China. "It's not going  to suck itself."  16:53, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

These should be their own seperate fronts IMO. Also, I think the USSR was already invading China but I would have to double check.

China is in civil war atm, might want to change the government support modifier. Saturn 19:14, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Accoring to Mp, these where supposed to be seperate wars, so this will be fixed.

Soviet Union
Total:90
 * Location:+2
 * Power:+5
 * Industrial Strenght:+5
 * Military:3*5=15
 * Economy:3*5=15
 * Chance:+9
 * Motive:+2
 * Motive mods:+3
 * Population:+20
 * NPS: Russia (L) Mongolia (MV) Tuva (MV)=5+4+4-2-2=+9
 * Recent Wars:0 (I think)
 * Participation:+10

China

 * Location: 5
 * Power: 4/2=2
 * Industrial: 2
 * Development: Mill and Econ: (4*2) 8
 * Development: infra. (4*2) 8
 * Chance: 1
 * Motive: Defending from attack not destroying nation: 6
 * Modifier: Government supported: -5
 * Population: 20+5
 * Allies: China (L): 5
 * Recent Wars: (1) -3
 * participation: 10
 * Fronts: 2
 * Total: 62

Result
18% max

9% in a year, 13% in 2

Activity
I won't be home on the weekend so I don't think I'd be able to post my turns. I just hope I'm not removed or suddenly invaded cause of that. • 15:27, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and is it possible to get another user to post for me? Nk has offered to post what I add. • 15:50, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah other people can post for you.

19:38, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Brazil Implausibility
The Brazil player has, in the space of four years, turned Brazil from an impoverished country reliant on the West into an independent economic superpower that is vassalizing hostile Spanish-speaking nations, massively building up its military, and trying to form a South American European Union.

I, for one, am calling bullshit on this. Let's not forget that, at this time, South America was hugely dependent on the West economically. There is no way the United States would plausibly let Brazil build a possibly hostile EU-type organization in its strategic backyard. Not only that, but Brazil's neighbours will never plausibly let it "vassalize" or influence them. Uruguay, Paraguay and Venezuela, (the three targets thus far), all have different reasons to dislike Brazil, and there is no way they would plausibly let themselves be pressured into economic subservience by a somewhat foreign culture. Any such organization would not be led by Brazil, but by a fellow Spanish-speaking nation.

Second, Brazil was not a stable military power at this point. It had three revolts, including by both Communists and Fascists, over this period, as a quick look at Wikipedia will reveal. There were attempts at secession, massive general strikes, and general instability and unrest. ATL Brazil, meanwhile, has discarded the the Depression at least five years early, suffered no serious unrest, and is even making massive purchases of foreign arms. In fact, Brazil has even proposed to intervene in Central America, something so far outside its capabilities at this point that I am amazed it hasn't been crossed out already. Brazil at this point was poor, unstable and massively corrupt. Suddenly, Brazil has magically transformed itself into regional power. It even is acting to halt Communism, despite the fact that Brazil at this point had a massive Communist movement which was fighting in the streets with right-wing elements. OTL, this was crushed by the police, but ATL, it seems to have magically vanished instead. Can we see some mod action please, or we'll see an implausible-ass South American Empire by 1940. Shikata ga nai! 01:33, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

I have never claimed to be an economincally independent superpower or any such thing. Im trying to build up heavy industry im not saying its not corrupt either but me saying improvements in certain things does not remove the point that there is still corruption among other things im just not talking about it. Far enough into this, Getulio Vargas was a fascists for the most part. As for the communist element. Communism was not in the streets fighting as you so say, there may have been a few riots but Brazil was nowhere near being a communist country. As for riots and unrest that is the mods job not mine. If they see it as implausible then they can give me some unrest but im not stopping a solid development program that Vargas did OTL.

You also seem to have missed the point that i have in fact put in a much different constitution than OTL which would easily negate a communist upheavel especially if they could gain their power legitimately.

As for the depression i havent discarded it. I am nowhere near pushing out of the depression but i am also once again not talking about the problems that are present because those are really for me to try and figure out how to handle. I will handle them when they are an issue or i deem them needed to be addressed. But as of right now Brazil had loads of potential period end of story and im exploiting Vargas's monopoly on power to handle this.. Unless you have spent a year doing research on the capabilities and issues of Brazil (which i have been) then i would suggest calming down and letting a mod address the problem. I am also not even trying to make an implausible south american empire. I am fostering relations and going off of what Venezuelas player did before he left. He set me up for influence. The last game i was Brazil Venezuela had a major revolt that i helped crush when i wasnt even a great power yet, i had my unrest and im going to address it. As someone who thought you could colonize greenland as a native state i dont really thing you should be going after me.

Just as a heads up, if this devloves into a pissing match instead of a debate, the ban hammer will be used. Also keep this within AvA Feud, Bringing Pm3 into this will only cause more issues.

Also, any claims made need sources to back them up. No source means your claim is invalid. This is Edge, He is a cool guy when he isn't too lazy to sign his real sig. Hit him up. 01:51, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

Well to back me up, the Brazilian government OTL while corrupt managed to gain a solid industrial base under Vargas OTL just lesser than the current one im building right now. OTL Vargas was moderate industry focus, mine is Heavy industry focused. The Vargas Era while a dictatorship was one of recognized industrial improvement under his Industry friendly policies. Im just perpetuating those with heavy industry and a plan to empty out the favelas as well by putting people to work voluntarily in the Amazons (for whatever resource or settlement opportunity). My industry focus in the southwest will undoubtedly cause class conflict which i will address when the time comes but its really not too pressing of an issue right now. Since i took over in 33 i have had plenty of breathing room to avoid the 35 on upheavals of communists and fascists by putting people to work pretty much. It may still be there but its definitively delayed until probably 1939-1941.

As for the Great Depression the amount of people being put to work (as well as foreign purchases increasing) is simply implementing economics that i have mentioned to the point of having Vargas's political favor running out if he does any more really. People are being put to work and some people arent happy, sorry but it still doesnt change the fact i can make foreign purchases for various projects and developments. Debt or no debt i am allowed to make these purchases regardless which is purposfully my point in buying heavy industry product from aborad so i can increase my own domestic heavy industry development by using that base status to expand it. I even mentioned my industrial production is slowed due to the lack of industry producing the consumer goods among other things. Also as for Rapidly industrializing, thats not implausible. Brazil doesnt have a dust bowl and doesnt have the same crop shortage as the US which drove people to cities i have other problems of just stuff being too cheap for the few main exporting industries in the country.. I buy coffee crop from farmers and burn it to keep them soluble as coffee growers (OTL this happened) and in general im just trying to migrate a good portion of people from that to new industries (steel and some manufacturing) in states that have pretty decent coal reserves which i think is relatively plausible.

As for military development and purchases, i was planning on having it develop up to a point until the political support for it dies down a bit and the Great Depression is over. My military development and purchases is purely to employ a crap ton of people for a good long while, WW2 brought multiple countries out of the Depression through military purchases and development. Simply put, the overspending on equipment allows for alot mroe jobs, might increase the debt but it doesnt really have an effect other than having weaponry for troops and having employed more general purpose people as a result.

As for the potential meddling in guatemala, Vargas was anti-communist as anything and im almost completely sure if he had the ability he would have prevented communism from expanding into Central america. Venezuela in general is of the point of the previous players on agreements with me. He wanted economic development and defense and i was going to help provide that. He essentially opened the whole country to influence when he accepted a deal to jointly develop oil.

Given that there doesn't seem to be a plan for a new Brazilian Empire, the domestic unrest hasn't just vanished, and the economic stuff is justified by OTL, Brazil seems fairly plausible to me. So I guess this is cleared up, at least to my satisfaction. Shikata ga nai! 02:25, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

PS-Venezuela has a trade and defence agreement with Guatamala, I know, I was the foremer Venezuela. The River Nile-2 (talk) 14:44, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

Austria

 * Location: +4
 * Power: +4
 * Industrial Strength: +4
 * Development: +44 (Military), +4 (Economy)
 * Chance: +6
 * Motive: +6, +3, +5
 * Population: +5
 * Allies: +5 (Yugoslavia), +4 (Soviet Union)
 * Participation: +10
 * Overall = +104

Czechoslovakia

 * Location: +5
 * Power: +1
 * Industrial Strength: +3
 * Development: +3 (Military), +3 (Economy), +2 (Infrastructure)
 * Chance: +5
 * Motive: +8, +4, -5
 * Population: +7
 * Allies: +5 (Germany), +5 (Poland)
 * Participation: +10
 * Overall= +56

Result
Austria wins by 37%. 35% in 1 year.

Discussion
Good god.. All those headings are killing me.. "It's not going  to suck itself."  06:09, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

this algo needs to be adjusted since i joined on the side of czechoslovakia, which is plausibl under the anti-communist regime in currently in. With Blood and Iron (talk) 15:21, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

This algo does need to be updated for the incoming support for Czechoslovakia - LightningLynx89

NK needs to put his dev scores here. ~ Blocky858

I need dev scores, people. ~ Blocky858

i dont know what my score is but ive developed every turn military and economy so. also the ussr isnt involved and france would be involved independent of their alliance ot germany on the grounds of the czech-french alliance, and the polish-french alliance. With Blood and Iron (talk) 03:32, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Let's use LL's algo. +44 military? His seems more accurate.  Happy65  Messages  07:19, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

The Soviet Union aren't participating. It's just a few independents from the Soviet Union without official government authorisation. I'm pretty sure that Austria and 200 Yugoslavians would not win against Germany, France, Poland. If this is our algo, then something is HORRIBLY wrong.  Happy65  Messages  15:18, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

We forgot about the 45,000 Danes fihgting in Austria, guys. • 18:44, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ireland
I was wondering could I join as Ireland? I'm asking because it does not appear on the nations list. I think Ireland would have an intresting alternative WWII History if The Fascist Leader Eoin O'Duffy got into power or perhaps joined Britain in the war in hopes that it would lead them closer to having Northern Ireland returned to them. These are both realistic, the second was considered by the Irish government and the first is something that was a rising movement before Eoin O'Duffy was arrested to prevent it becoming a fascist state. People also feared that the arrest would lead to a non- Democratic state, I think these are intresting plausible scenarios. I would also ask to reserve Ireland for myself if it's allowed. I'm activeon the General portal of Wikias 5-6 days a week.

Masterire (talk) 17:31, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

Go for it.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 20:17, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

Don't know how plausable that is, but you can play as Ireland.

Germany and France: Allies?
So it seems to be a topic that has very mixed opinoins, but Germany and France seem to be way to close in this game. So I decided to open up a fourm for people to voice their opinions on this issue. NOTE: THE VOTING SECTION IS ONLY FOR MODS, but everyone is welcome to say something here. Mods, Vote Aye if you think the alliance is plausable, or nay if you don't think it is plausable.

Disscussion
An alliance? No way. Trade? Better. It isn't plausible really at this time, but tbh it wouldn't be ASB without the Germans not re-arming the Rhineland and with the Soviet threat in Eastern Europe. Depends, I guess. Saturn 21:01, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

I think that it is fine. Without Hitler, I think it makes sense for the two countries to join against communism. Vatonica (talk) 22:16, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

Nope. A non-aggression pact is far better than a straight up alliance. Remember that World War I was less than a generation ago. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Also, let's not forget that the Communists were massively powerful in France right now. A Socialist-led Front Populaire government led France after the 1936 elections. The French electorate sees Germany as more of a threat than Communism. Shikata ga nai! 01:36, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Who is to say the socialist-led Front Populaire is in power right now? It's all really up to me who's in power, and by the way I've been writing the right seems more in control than the left. -  .....   Because I'm Just... Too... SSSWWWEEEEEETTT!!!

if there is an issue with my dealings with france there is no problem with the alliance being rolled backed however a non aggression pact would still in place, and with a huge change in german policies the deals would have happened lets face it germany was going to remilitarize nazis or no nazis. france couldnt do anything to stop it otl and they wouldnt have been able to here but in the atl case the change in german regime wpuld have allowed for a more pragmatic solution which would have allowed for french and german eventual reapporachment dont get me wrong germany and france would still have issues and tensions but it wouldnt be as alarming as the rapid expansion of communism in europe. With Blood and Iron (talk) 03:19, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

also a heads up most of my diplomatic stances this ava are based on the harry turtledove series the war that came euarly. the germasn, brits, and french do actually form an alliance against the soviets in the book, and poland sides with germany as well, and if i have a saner leader then the fuhrer i honestly dont see why a legit anti-communist league cant be established, on the grounds of keeping peace in europe. but again its up to the mods With Blood and Iron (talk) 03:53, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why you couldn't form the alliance, but I still see it as unrealistic. Only one generation had passed since WWI and there'd still be much animosity between French and Germans. • 13:19, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Neither France nor Germany should be taking major positions on this war and they definitely shouldn't be fighting on the same side of the war.

22:57, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

germany qould have a vested interest in the conflict as it is trying to stop the spread of left wing idealogies and lets face it pan germanism was still strong in germany even withouit the nazis. as for france historically the french had a alliance with the czechs so it is a legitimate cause to get involved in the austro-czech war. With Blood and Iron (talk) 17:45, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Austria

 * Location: +4 (On the border)
 * Power: +4 (Large Land + Small Air Force)
 * Industrial Strength: 2+2= +4 (Austrian + Yugoslavians)
 * Development: 2x5 = +10 (Military), 2x2 = +4 (Economy)
 * Chance: +6
 * Motive: +6 (Taking Back Territory), +5 (Preemptive Strike)
 * Population: +5 (Smaller than the Czech’s population alone)
 * Allies: +5 (Yugoslavia), +4 (Soviet Union)
 * Participation: +10
 * Total = 67

Czechoslovakia

 * Location: +5
 * Power: +2 (Less than opponent's military)
 * Industrial Strength: +3+5+4+2 = +14 (Czechs + Germany + France + Poland)
 * Development: +3 (Military), +3 (Economy), +2 (Infrastructure) = +8
 * Chance: +5
 * Motive: +8 (Defending Core/Heartland), +4 (Defending part of the Homeland)
 * Population: +7
 * Allies: +5 (Germany), +5 (Poland), +5 (France)
 * Participation: + 10
 * Total = 78

Results
Czechoslovakian and Allied victory

Discussion
It may not be perfect, but you can change thing, that +44 Military was atrocious though -   and you, and now half the... GI JOE!

Seems more like it.  Happy65  Messages  07:22, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

You guys don't seem to understand how the algo works. From what I've been told by Edge, each Leader nation's dev scores are added together and then multiplied by the power. I got 11 overall multiplied by my 4 power is 44. Blocky858 (talk) 08:51, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

This is also why I was asking for your guys' dev scores, which none of you posted. Blocky858 (talk) 08:52, February 24, 2015 (UTC)\

I also believe I have a large air force + high morale. Blocky858 (talk) 08:56, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Austria wouldnt have large anything... no way you can field a large airforce in your current small state. Your reall over-estimating your capabilities.

Power is averaged together, then multiplied by the total development scores. Power is limited by Indsutrial capablity.

I have a large military and a large airforce, Feud, what are you talking about? Blocky858 (talk) 20:09, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Austria
Total:53
 * Location:+4
 * Power:4/2=2
 * Idustry:+2
 * MIlitary:5*2=10
 * Economy:1*2=2
 * Chance:+6
 * Motive:Taken Back territory=+6
 * Motive modifiers:
 * Population:=5 (Assuming Yugoslavia doesn't lead, then this might change)
 * Allies: Austria (L) Yugoslavia (?) Soviet Union (S)=+8
 * Participation:+10
 * Fronts:2

Allied Forces
Total:95
 * Location:+5
 * Power:+6 (Assuming that Germany and co. aren't leading)
 * Industry:+4
 * Military:3*6=18
 * Economy:3*6=18
 * Infra:3*6=18
 * Chance:=5
 * Motive:+6
 * Motive Modifers:+4
 * Population:+7
 * Allies: Czechoslovakia (L) France (MS) Germany (?) Poland (?)
 * Participation:+10

Result
Czech forces hold back Austria.

Disscussion
Need Austria's development. ~Eon

5 Military, 1 Economy. Yugoslavia is a leader. Also, why do I not get high morale..? Blocky858 (talk) 00:04, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Didn't Yugoslavia send like 200 troops? That amount is so small I highly doubt it would make them a leader. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here) 09:42, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Either way, they sent troops. Also, remove France. Blocky858 (talk) 23:50, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

France will be allowed to stay cause they aren't invading with Germany.

Since it's taken so long to finalize this, it would make sense saying that this war has lasted from 1937 through 1939. Starting to enter into the realms of World War II.

Canadian representative
Canada

After looking at the lack of a Canadian representative, I would like to join.

Thisismacedon (talk) 01:05, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Just notice that Canada has done stuff (I used to be in charge of it, but then I switched to Poland after debates about Canada's sovereignty). Vatonica (talk) 01:36, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Canada has done little stuff tho. Nothing else than getting embassies really. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here)

I still want to join since I am a new joiner of this wiki and Canada did have many internal issues

38.116.192.102 22:20, February 25, 2015 (UTC) Thisismacedon

The German Reich
Total = 175
 * Location: +4
 * Power: +6
 * Large Land Assault Capability: +3
 * Large Aerial Assault Capability: +3
 * Industrial Strength: +5
 * Development: 8+8=16*6=96
 * Chance: +0
 * Motive: +7 [Enforcing Political Hegemony]
 * ​High Morale:+5
 * Non Demo support:=3
 * Population: +15 [Greater than 50 Million], +15 [10x of Enemy Population] = +30
 * Allies: German Reich [+5], Poland [+3] = +8
 * Participation: +10

Austrian Peoples Republic
Total = 59
 * Location: +5
 * Power: +4/2
 * Medium Land Assault Capability: +2
 * Medium Aerial Assault Capability: +2
 * Industrial Strength: +2
 * Development: 5+1=6*2=12
 * Chance: +5
 * Motive: +8 [Fatal Attack]
 * Population: +5 [Less than 30 Million]
 * Allies: Austria [+5], USSR [+4] = +9
 * Participation: +10
 * Fronts:2

Result
Well, once we get Dev scores and this algo turns out to be correct.. Then we can find out! "It's not going  to suck itself."  18:08, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

2 year collapse.

Yugoslavia

 * Location: 2
 * Medium land capability +2/2=1
 * Industry: 2
 * Development: 10*1=10
 * Modivation: Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 4
 * Motive Mods:Non Demo supported:+3
 * Poulation: Less than 50 mil:+5, 10x larger:=15
 * Recent Wars: Supplier: -1
 * Allies:Yugoslavia (L):=5
 * Participation:+10
 * Fronts:2
 * Total: 55

Albania

 * Location: 5
 * small land capability: +1
 * Industry: 4
 * Development: 10*1=10
 * Modivation: Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 8
 * Motive Mods: Demo Supported:+4 (no idea about this tbh)
 * Poulation: Less than 30 million:+5
 * Recent Wars: Supplier: 0
 * Allies: Albania (L) France (S)=8
 * Fronts:1
 * Participation:+10
 * Total: 54

Results
Less than 1 precent. Do not pass go. Do not collect your $200. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

Disscussion
I know I did the math wrong, please help me - Scarlet Outlaw

You did it very wrong. Luckily, I have experience regarding the equation. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here) 15:50, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Greece and France both provided weapons to Albania, if it makes any difference. Alexander of Volzhsky Talk  01:11, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

I really don't want to be 'that' guy but I really doubt Greece is in any condition to fund resistance in other nations when it was a 600,000 army which pretty much should have led to complete and total economic collapse for Greece. In any case, Greece shouldn't be providing weapons.. It should be sending soldiers as it is. "It's not going  to suck itself."  06:16, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Greece could send supplies(only if the whole giant army thing was cancelled/crossed out). Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here)

this is wrong in a lot of ways. A lot. I will fix it later. This is Edge, He is a cool guy when he isn't too lazy to sign his real sig. Hit him up. 20:27, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Why is the navy not invovled? This is Edge, He is a cool guy when he isn't too lazy to sign his real sig. Hit him up. 03:14, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Up's seciton will be up later. ~Eon

Edge, Yugoslavia is no longer a kingdom. And given the opposition against them, they would lose. • 15:44, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

The Navy is not invovled due to the fact this is a land attack/land war. - Scarlet Outlaw

I do not see anything about him changing his government at all. May have missed it. If so, direct me to the turn in question.

Ethiopian Representative
Since Canada has been taken today, I feel like I want an Ethiopian representative since it has an independent foreign policy, military and foreign policy.

Thisismacedon (talk) 02:25, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

You don't need to ask on the talkpage to sign up as a nation. You can just go ahead and sign up. Saturn 02:28, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Liechtenstein
Trollis hasn't posted since the first turn, so as per the rules the nation should be made vacant. • 15:15, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

AFK and Some Algo Calrity
So I will be going on a debate tournament this weekend. Last minute cramming has led to me having to take a bit of time off. Will be back Sunday. Do not kill each other while I am gone. I will fix the German-Austria War and Yugoslavia War later today.

Algo Clarity
 * So this algo is based off of the R-Word Algo, hwoever it is my interpretation of such algo
 * Development Scores count as +1 per turn.
 * If a nation Sends supplies and has a higer industry score then the leaders, use the suppliers
 * if a nation is sending MIlitary support, power should go up, assuming the Military aider has a larger industry.
 * If a nation is leading it must invade on it's own. In this case you use the higher industry, average the powers, and use all nations development.
 * Troop numbers will be added to the algo at some point.

Nuclear Weapons PSA
People seem to be under the misconception that nuclear weapons are easy to create. Yet, I must remind everyone that as of right now, there is no country on earth that can create a successful nuclear weapons program. There are three problems: scientists, resources, and motivation. It took a letter from some of the most well-known physicists in the world at the time to convince the world's leading superpower to begin the nuclear project; there is absolutely no reason some backwater country would start nuke research because of its potential; with the money spent on a nuke project, said nation could have trained and equipped a thousand armies, navies, and air forces.

The Manhattan Project cost 2 billion USD, or 26 billion adjusted for inflation. It involved over 130,000 people, 30+ locations, and almost a hundred scientists. It was, until the Space Race, the most resource-consuming project in human history.

As of right now, America is the closest to the bomb - it has the scientists and resources. However, it lacks the motivation - why start an economically taxing weapons program based on an unproven theory in the midst of the Great Depression? The Soviet Union and Brazil lack the scientists and resources, although it has more motivation. So I want to get this straight right now: no one is producing a bomb until 1945 at the earliest, and most nations apart from America and the Soviet Union (hint, hint, Brazil) won't be able to get them until the late '50s. So please, I don't want to see Japan developing a nuke and dropping it on LA during WWII. The schedule for nuke development (assuming the American player doesn't "accidentally" find the Soviet spy rings in the Manhattan Project) should be as follows:

1945-1948 1949-1955 1956-1960
 * America
 * Soviet Union
 * Germany
 * Britain
 * France
 * Brazil

Just putting this out there before I have to cross out some post in 1941 claiming Australia has detonated a nuclear weapon. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

france and brazil before my great east asia :(. hell one might have been tested in 1945 near Konan Toby2: THEY CALL ME Mr. Awesome!!!

Modship
I, TechnicallyIAmSean, want to apply for modship. The game currently has over 35 players, and thus I feel that adding 1 or 2 mods would be good. I am also online for big parts of the day and I can quickly cross out implausibilities and I can work with the algo too. If I'm needed to, I can also help with the map. So yeah, this is my application. Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here) 11:30, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Invasion of Timor
GEACOPS
 * Location: 3
 * Power: 4 (7-2 fronts)
 * Development: Mil and Econ (8*4): 32
 * Chance: 4
 * Motive: Economic 2
 * Modifier: Non-Dem supported: 3
 * Population: Greater than 100: 20. 5x: 10 = 30
 * Allies: Japan (L) Imperial China (LV) West Papua (LV) Korea (MV) Menjiang (SV)= 14
 * Recent wars: -3
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 97

Portugal

 * Location: 5
 * Power: 3/3=1
 * Development: mil and econ (2*1): 2
 * Dev: infra (2*1): 2
 * Chance: 6
 * Motive: defending from possibly fatal: 8
 * Modifier: dem gov support 4
 * Population: less than 30m: 5
 * Allies: Portugese Timor (LV) Portugal (L) Macau (MV) = 10
 * Participation:10
 * Total: 52

Result
((97/(52+97))*2)-1 = 0.30

(0.45142857142)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.22

Discussion
After talking with Toby, I am allowing him to take one colony completly. Timor goes to Japan. He takes no land from Macau however.

Invasion of Macau
GEACOPS
 * Location: 4
 * Power: 4 (7-2 fronts)
 * Development: Mil and Econ (8*4): 32
 * Chance: 4
 * Motive: Economic 2
 * Modifier: Non-Dem supported: 3
 * Population: Greater than 100: 20. 5x: 10 = 30
 * Allies: Japan (L) Imperial China (LV) West Papua (LV) Korea (MV) Menjiang (SV)= 14
 * Recent wars: -3
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 96

Portugal

 * Location: 5
 * Power: 3/3=1.
 * Development: mil and econ (2*1): 2
 * Dev: infra (2*1): 2
 * Chance: 6
 * Motive: defending from possibly fatal: 8
 * Modifier: dem gov support 4
 * Population: less than 30m: 5
 * Allies: Macau (LV) Portugal (L) Timor (MV): 10
 * Conquerent Wars:
 * Participation:10
 * Total:52

Result
Same as above.

Palestine
I'd like to join this map game as Mandatory Palestine (if I'm going about this the wrong way just say). Dreamcaster1 (talk) 11:21, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

just sign up man. put your name by the nation. With Blood and Iron (talk) 11:32, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Really? Thanks then. Dreamcaster1 (talk) 11:59, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

But Palestine is under British rule, so be careful when you need England to do that, Dominion.

Italian invasion of Yugoslavia
They declared war and said they were invading. There should be an algo on this.Vatonica (talk) 19:16, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Covet Actions
After looking at the algoritms, you did not talk about covert operations. So my question is that can you perform covert operations in the game and how would it work?

Please remember to sign your posts.

I would say that it depends on the action. Simple spying would probably be allowed, although major things like assassination of major political leaders and the stealing of major state secrets would probably be an issue to be brought up to neutral mods who can decide who such operations end up.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:46, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

I was going to try to incite an independence movement so do I just enter the talk.

Thisismacedon (talk) 20:01, March 1, 2015 (UTC) Thisismacedon

Spain
Total:100
 * Location:+4
 * Power:4
 * Industry:+2
 * MIlitary: 7*4=28
 * Economy: 7*4=28
 * Chance:+1
 * Motive:Similar culture=+4
 * Motive modifiers:+4 (Fear of the Portugese Fascist regime)
 * Population:=5+5 = +10
 * Allies: Spain (L) +5, Spanish Mottoroco (S) +3, Spanish Guneia (S) +3 = +11
 * Concurrent War: +0
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Participation:+10

Portugal
Total:78
 * Location:+5
 * Power:3/3=1
 * Industry:+2
 * Military:8*1=+8
 * Economy:8*1=+8
 * Infra:8*1=+8
 * Chance:=+6
 * Motive:+8
 * Motive Modifers:+4
 * Population:+5
 * Allies: Portugal (L) +5, Mozquabsebe (LV) +3, Angola (LV) +3, Portegese Guenia (LV) +3 = +14
 * Recent Wars: +0
 * Participation:+10

Result
((100/(78+100))*2)-1 = 12% max

(0.48)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 10% in 3 years

Disscussion
This war is bullshit. Spain was no no shape to fight a 3-year war with Portugal. PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Don't know how long I should've made it, waiting for Edge to check and fix it. Saturn 11:23, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Also, remember that the Spanish Civil War in this ATL was only in northern Spain (Mainly Gallica and Navvare). Added with the fact that French and Soviet investments were put into the mimimg industy, and I can see the Republic of Spain trying to invade and try to get rid of the Facist regime, which, by the way, supported the Nationalists (or at least in OTL, I'm guessing it did, since it's practically an NPC,) in the Spanish Civil War. Saturn 11:33, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Also, if I may step in here, the fascist powers of Europe provided Franco with the resources and troops needed to win against the Republicans. That hasn't happened in the game. So Saturn can technically beat Portugal in a fight, especially considering that all of the military power Spain had in the 1930s isn't being directed against Franco. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 22:03, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Sooo...why is this war happening?

22:13, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Well, in the OTL Spanish Civil War, the Facist Regime supported the Nationalists in their side of he civil war. Since Portgual is practically an NPC, (Which the user hasn't posted once, btw.) It would've supported the nationalists in the civil war. The nationalists brought a fierce police state onto Northern Spain, and some of e remaining forces retreated there. Since the state, supplying the other side, saw it as a direct threat. Also with the fact that Franco escaped to Portugal, as well with the fact the brutality of Facism was brought upon the Spanish people, military action was declared on Portugal. Saturn 23:29, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, I thought portugal had development scores. This means that both the Japanese algos and the Spanish algos are wrong. if he hasn't posted he gets NPC development.

Here is the Portugese players contributions. Hasn't posted once as his nation, only for diplomacy. Fix as needed. Saturn 00:18, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

New Articles PSA
Please, please, please, please, please DON'T categorize every single page as "Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game." We have these categories for a reason.


 * Nations (Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game)
 * Treaties (Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game)
 * Organizations (Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game)
 * Wars (Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game)

So please, DON'T categorize pages like Argentina as "Axis vs Allies Resurrection Map Game."

That is all. Your friendly dictator and overlord,

PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 6)

Archives and AVAR
I now know why everytime I touch the AVAR page chrome crashes - the amount of data on it, therefore archives should be made, and it should be cut until 1940 - QC

Guatemala and El Salvador
Total:167
 * Location:+4
 * Power:3
 * Industry:+1
 * MIlitary: 10 +10*3=60
 * Economy: 10+10*3=60
 * Chance:
 * Motive: Hegemony +7
 * Motive modifiers:+4 (Dem. sup.)
 * Population: 5+5 = +10
 * Allies: Guatemala (L) +5, El Salvador (LV) +3 = +8
 * Concurrent War: +0
 * Recent Wars: None
 * Participation:+10
 * Troops: 100,000/35,000 = 3

Honduran government
Total:64
 * Location:+5
 * Power:+1 (basically no navy or air force)
 * Industry:+1
 * Military:10*1=10
 * Economy:10*1=10
 * Infra:10*1=+10
 * Chance:=+5
 * Motive:+8
 * Motive Modifers: -5 (not supported, due to dictatorship and genera oppression)
 * Population:+5
 * Allies: Honduras +5
 * Recent Wars: +0
 * Participation:+10
 * Troops: +0

Result
Toppled in two years.
 * ((167/(64+167))*2)-1=0.44588744588
 * (0.4458)*(1-1/(2 x 2)) = 0.33435