Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Largest Cities
In most of the continents, this is fairly simple. But I was thinking the other day - what would the ten largest cities in North America (not including Mexico, mind) and Europe atl be? Been a bit intrigued about it, so I figured I'd see what you guys think. Thoughts?

Lordganon 09:20, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well here is my guess for Europe:


 * 1) Berlin
 * 2) Katowice
 * 3) Stockholm
 * 4) Zurich
 * 5) Dublin
 * 6) Helsinki
 * 7) Seville
 * 8) Lodz
 * 9) Lille
 * 10) Samara

Of course this is all based on current non-Doomsday figure, so it is possible that these might off. Any city in the northern hemisphere on Doomsday is going to suffer, even the small ones. Supplying them is going to be a horrid. Mitro 14:57, December 1, 2010 (UTC) Not in any particular order:
 * Also, when you leave Mexico from the North American cities, does that include Central America, Cuba and the other islands? Mitro 14:59, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Should have said that too - having those in there would fill the list with cities from those places.Lordganon 20:56, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Manchester, VT
 * Midland-Odessa, (W)TX
 * Lexington, KY
 * Fort Collins, USA
 * Victoria, VICTORIA
 * Marquette, SUPERIOR
 * St. John's, CA
 * Saskatoon, CA (NAU)
 * Toledo, TOLEDO CONFEDERATION
 * Asheville, BLUE RIDGE

This isn't meant to be a comprehensive list, merely a list to help jumpstart the conversation.--BrianD 18:04, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I should have known Brian would beat me to the post! Anyway, what follows is my musing so far:


 * I would say that the list should be of "Largest Surviving Cities of North America" and likewise in Europe. If the nation was not under attack, then it would not have "Surviving" cities. Going over the list of the 50 largest cities in the US for 1983, only Toledo, Ohio, survived without a strike. That makes it the largest city in the US (and probably larger than any city left in Canada). Based on the excellent new article by Brian, Lexington, Kentucky, would probably be number two. Other contenders can probably be found in West Texas and the United States.
 * So far, then, my list starts with two, with more to be determined:


 * Toledo, Federal District, Toledo Confederation
 * Lexington, Commonwealth of Kentucky


 * I'll check Brian's list for population estimates later to see how they stack up. [Wondering out loud whether Greenville, Piedmont makes the top ten] SouthWriter 18:35, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head, London and Kitchen-Waterloo in Ontario would likely be included on such a list. Lordganon 20:56, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

The one problem with Lexington is that the Kentucky article says that it's not their largest city (a typo, I assume)

Hunting around a little, I suspect that the top ten in Canada and the former USA would be from these (in no real order):


 * Lexington, Kentucky
 * Fort Collins, USA
 * Toledo, Toledo Confederation
 * St. John's, Canada
 * London, LondonOnt
 * Kitchener, Waterloo Cooperative
 * St. Catharines, Niagara Falls
 * Greenville, Piedmont
 * Saskatoon, Provisional Canada
 * Lincoln, Lincoln
 * Midland/Odessa, West Texas
 * Reno-Sparks, Sierra-Nevada
 * Victoria, Victoria
 * Billings, USA
 * Charleston, Virginia

As for Europe, something from these, in my mind (again, no order):


 * Zurich, Alpine Confederation
 * Zagreb, Croatia
 * Berlin, Prussia
 * Stockholm, Sweden
 * Malmo, Sweden
 * Gothenburg, Sweden
 * Helsinki, Finland
 * Pristina, Serbia
 * Cluj-Napoca, Transylvania
 * Poznań, West Poland
 * Mogilev, Belarus
 * Genoa, Genoa
 * Skopje, Macedonia
 * Dublin, Celtic Alliance
 * Palermo, Sicily

Certainly makes you think a lot, doesn't it? Heh.

Lordganon 02:57, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Good evening, Gentlemen, here is the North American list, sorted by our time line urban areas (or "metro" where urban wasn't listed). All figures from Wikipedia, estimated to possible TTL levels (most a little short of OTL figures): As you can see, I marked the former US cities in bold. And look at that -- Greenville is the second "American" City on the list! The "Canadian" cities held four of the top five spots, though. With that, gentlemen, I will bid you all a good night (or morning, as the case may be). SouthWriter 05:42, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Toledo - 500,000
 * 2) Kitchener - 420,000
 * 3) London - 350,000
 * 4) Victoria - 330,000
 * 5) St. Catherines - 305,000
 * 6) Greenville - 302,000
 * 7) Lincoln  - 290,000
 * 8) Reno-Sparks - 285,000
 * 9) Midland-Odessa - 265,000
 * 10) Lexington - 260,000
 * 11) Saskatoon - 223,000
 * 12) Ashville - 221,000
 * 13) Charleston - 210,000
 * 14) Billiings - 155,000
 * 15) St. Johns - 150,000
 * 16) Ft. Collins - 130,000

Very nice, south. You do do great work, lol.

That being said, two things: the Kitchener figure you list is the metro area, which as the Kitchener-Waterloo metro, consists of 3 cities which would be counted independently(as listed on the Waterloo article), and with Niagara Falls and Superior, the cities of Niagara Falls NY/ONT and Sault Ste. Marie MI/ONT would no longer be two separate cities on both sides of the border, but a single city in both cases (I don't know if this would make a difference, but it may)

Lordganon 07:35, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

For consistency, I used the urban figures of the selected cities. I did not think to look for others. Below is a chart of the selected cities, including Niagra Falls and Sault Ste Marie. Provided are the actual figures from the Wikia articles which may or may not reflect actual populations in TTL in the present day.

Using this chart, you can see that the "largest cities" can be arranged according to how you describe "city." Sometimes the city and county will combine creating a "metro" smaller than the "urban." But if we go just by the city limits as described in city charters, and include the dual cities as listed (including the 'international' cities, the top ten will be:


 * 1) London
 * 2) Reno-Sparks
 * 3) Toledo
 * 4) Lexington
 * 5) Lincoln
 * 6) Saskatoon
 * 7) Midland-Odessa
 * 8) Ft. Collins
 * 9) Niagra Falls
 * 10) St. Catherine's

I like the "metro" list - Greenville comes out at number 3 (but with a present day population bigger than I give all of Piedmont). In the metro list, Niagra Falls comes out far on top, but that might include St. Catherine's (the city of Buffalo has been completely removed, though). I'll let the chart speak. Perhaps it will show up on the main page (I vote for the cities arranged by "metro" population). SouthWriter 20:56, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

I figure some cross between the three is most likely. and my bad for the Niagara Falls/Sault. Ste. Marie bit - I had assumed that they wouldn't register, but when you made that list I changed my mind, lol. I'll look into another tomorrow.

My thoughts on Europe, with some city population estimates:


 * 1) Berlin, Prussia: 1,000,000 plus is likely.
 * 2) Stockholm, Sweden: 840,000
 * 3) Dublin, Celtic Alliance: 830,000
 * 4) Zagreb, Croatia: 775,000
 * 5) Palermo, Sicily: 655,000
 * 6) Helsinki, Finland: 585,000
 * 7) Skopje, Macedonia: 550,000
 * 8) Gothenburg, Sweden: 510,000
 * 9) Pristina, Serbia: 495,000
 * 10) Genoa, Genoa: 490,000
 * 11) Zurich, Alpine Confederation: 430,000
 * 12) Cluj-Napoca, Transylvania: 380,000
 * 13) Moglev, Belarus: 350,000
 * 14) Poznan, West Poland: 310,000
 * 15) Malmo, Sweden: 295,000

Kinda odd with the Alpine populations, but most are in smaller (~100,000 at most) cities, not the bigger ones. Meh.

Lordganon 07:25, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

After a bit of hunting about, my guess at the largest cities in the former USA and Canada:


 * 1) Toledo, Toledo Confederation: 430,000
 * 2) London, London ONT: 315,000
 * 3) Victoria, Victoria: 305,000
 * 4) Lincoln, Republic of Lincoln: 290,000
 * 5) Midland-Odessa, West Texas: 255,000
 * 6) Lexington, Kentucky: 245,000
 * 7) Saskatoon, Provisional Canada: 225,000
 * 8) Charleston, Virginia: 220,000
 * 9) St. Catherines, Niagara Falls: 215,000
 * 10) Ashville, Blue Ridge: 210,000
 * 11) Kitchener, Waterloo: 200,000
 * 12) Niagara Falls, Niagara Falls: 190,000
 * 13) St. Johns, Canada: 160,000
 * 14) Reno-Sparks, Sierra Nevada: 150,000
 * 15) Fort Collins, USA: 145,000
 * 16) Billings, USA: 135,000
 * 17) Greenville, Piedmont Republic: 120,000
 * 18) Waterloo, Waterloo: 115,000
 * 19) Manchester, Vermont: 105,000
 * 20) Sault St. Marie, Superior: 100,000

Even taking out the population of Buffalo proper, the Niagara metropolitan area otl is still mostly its suburbs. The St.Catherine metro area otl includes Niagara falls and Welland, whereas here it doesn't. Adjusted several of these to keep the same population ratios even with the smaller national populations quoted in their articles. Gave Waterloo and Kitchener what their populations for more likely be too - the old Kitchener population was both combined with a couple of other cities.

We should do an article on all this, lol.

Lordganon 16:59, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Good work, LG. You beat me to it, and I agree to the adjustments based on the articles. I set my own town of Greenville up for demotion based on Piedmont's given population, but see how post-doomsday conditions would give the "city" a larger population (based on annexation of much of the county, etc.) I had left Manchester off my chart (my apologies to Brian) because my research was faulty. I looked up Manchester, Vermont (US state OTL) and failed to realize the larger city in the absorbed state of New Hampshire! All I had to do is read the Republic of Vermont article, huh?? :-/

Anyway, I will put an article up with a modified chart and Intro to the largest "survivor cities" of North America. I'll let LG work on getting a similar article up for Europe since I know almost nothing about how Europe might have fared. SouthWriter 18:39, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Will do.

Sun (of all people, lol) got me thinking a bit. I did miss a few cities in that (not that they would be in the top ten, lol - biggest one is at 16) and overinflated London, lol (forgot about Sarnia being in that nation). A revised list (so much for "ten" lol):


 * 1) Toledo, Toledo Confederation: 430,000
 * 2) Victoria, Victoria: 305,000
 * 3) London, London ONT: 295,000
 * 4) Lincoln, Republic of Lincoln: 290,000
 * 5) Midland-Odessa, West Texas: 255,000
 * 6) Lexington, Kentucky: 245,000
 * 7) Saskatoon, Provisional Canada: 225,000
 * 8) Charleston, Virginia: 220,000
 * 9) St. Catherines, Niagara Falls: 215,000
 * 10) Ashville, Blue Ridge: 210,000
 * 11) Kitchener, Waterloo: 200,000
 * 12) Niagara Falls, Niagara Falls: 190,000
 * 13) St. Johns, Canada: 160,000
 * 14) Reno-Sparks, Sierra Nevada: 150,000
 * 15) Fort Collins, USA: 145,000
 * 16) Cape Coral-Fort Myers, South Florida: 140,000
 * 17) Billings, USA: 135,000
 * 18) Evansville, Kentucky: 130,000
 * 19) Greenville, Piedmont Republic: 120,000
 * 20) Waterloo, Waterloo: 115,000
 * 21) Olympia, Victoria: 115,000
 * 22) Roanoke, Virginia: 110,000
 * 23) Sioux Falls, Dakotas: 110,000
 * 24) Manchester, Vermont: 105,000
 * 25) Sarnia-Port Huron, London ONT: 105,000
 * 26) Lynchburg, Virginia: 105,000
 * 27) Salem, Oregon: 105,000
 * 28) Fargo, Dakotas: 100,000
 * 29) Huntington, Virginia: 100,000
 * 30) Sault St. Marie, Superior: 100,000

Lordganon 02:42, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

The Unification of Binghamton and Ithaca
Arstar has suggested that Binghamton and Ithaca be united into a single nation. What I want to know is wether or not you people think that the two states should be united.

Should Binghamton and Ithaca be united? Yes No

Yank has also suggested that the tentative Republic of New York than go on to annex the other nearest counties. However, I disagree, thinking its time we start building nations on natural boundaries like rivers and lakes rather than obsolete lines. What do you guys think? Arstar 19:22, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to have the Republic use old county lines because it is easier to use old county maps than to mark out territory on geographic maps of the area. How about we collaborate once again on this article Arstar? --Yank 21:43, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me. But do you guys have any other name ideas in mind besides the Republic of New York? Arstar 04:26, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

While I do like Yanks idea involving the Finger Lakes, that only really would be applicable for Ithaca, not Binghamton (those lakes are nw/north of Ithaca), not matter what the general region may be called by the Department of Economic Development. What makes it worse is that they both are in separate geological regions (Ithaca area flows to the great lakes, Binghamton area flows to the ocean). If it helps, however I did find that some of the locals in Tompkins County (Ithaca, for all purposes) consider themselves as part of the "Southern Tier" of New York, which Binghamton is definitely part of. There's not even a mountain range to work with here, lol.

Lordganon 12:58, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
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Culture / Society
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Miscellaneous discussion
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Help with moving the LoN to real life
I've already talked with Mitro a little bit about this, and he said I should put it on this page, so I will. At the school I go to, we have a Model United Nations program. We do simulations and contests as real world nations, argue, write resolutions, basically everything the real UN does. Once a year, we have a simulation that is just our group. It is for getting the new people insight into how a simulation works, and just to have fun. This year, I decided to try and have us do something different. My first idea, which was no longer existing countries, fell through, so then I said to myelf, "Why don't we do Alternate History Model UN?" Since none of my TL's are finished, I decided to use a TL that was done already, namely 1983: DD. It also helps that DD already has a version of the UN in it. I was figuring that wqe would use the secondary council, becuase we have too many people for the High council, and the GA only handles financial stuff. So I am here to ask for your assistance. What is it that I should know if I'm going to use the League in a simulation? And what topics would be good to use? Azecreth 19:44, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

Jails
What would happen to the prisoners all across jails in the US on Doomsday? One example is Crescent City, the capital of the Municipal States, in which the local jail makes up about a third of the cities population. Most likely, there would be prison breaks all across the US, with criminals rising to take entire small towns hostage. What do you guys think? Arstar 19:25, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Escaped convicts and existing gangs (both prison and out-of-prison gangs) would form the basis of many of the post-Doomsday murders, gangs, and nomadic groups that appeared after governments collapsed. Caeruleus

I think this issue has been generally taken care of in most articles under the name of "general anarchy" or "roving gangs running a muck" --Zack 00:13, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

For one, you'd be surprised how many articles lack the mention of either of the things you said above. And secondly, what you said above can mean a much broader sense of things. General anarchy can be people looting things, suicide, fights, and about 999,999 other things besides escaped convicts. Roving gangs, well, is a different thing because gangs also exist outside of jail. Arstar 02:09, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I meant "roving gangs of criminals/convicts running a muck". I think the anarchy you see as missing from articles is more or less implied. Still when you take care of your other proposals feel free to write an article up on the subject. --Zack 02:16, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I am willing to adopt this country. General tiu 14:53, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell GT is no longer the caretaker. Anyone willing to adopt this article?  Mitro 16:50, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2jec010 (UTC)
 * This has been a proposal since August. What are we doing with this article?  Mitro 18:20, October 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like many of Jni's articles, it seems fairly abandoned. If it's still around when I'm done my current projects I'll deal with it. Lordganon 03:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anything happening with this article? LG does not seem finished with his other projects, anyone else want to take a stab at getting this article graduated?  Mitro 16:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

All righty, with Serbia more or less done, I'll adopt this sucker and get to work! =)

Lordganon 21:30, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

Article by me and Sunkist and Zack. It will be the result of a unification between First Coast, South Florida and Gainesville. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to stubby-ness? Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much I'm restating the same reasons that I had above. Mitro 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The nation-state of First Coast (East Florida) is itself still a proposal, not having proven its own viability. The date you give for South Florida joining up is in 1996. I am pretty sure you mean 2010. Before you run headlong into this reunification, let's see if you can make First Coast work first. Meanwhile, let's change "Gainseville" back to "North Florida" (Sunkist - formerly known as Perryz - is back and he's the reason Zack changed the name).
 * I haven't researched East Florida, though it looks okay in concept. A balkanized Florida, like a balkanized Texas, does not make sense. Therefore, once we have established "East Florida," we can work on pulling them together, but I think the capital should be in Gainesville (a split capital really isn't necessary). SouthWriter 02:04, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that a balkanized Texas does make sense, at least in the aftermath of Doomsday. The size of Texas, combined with the number of nuclear strikes on State, makes it likely that Texas would split.HAD 18:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well any objections now? All three member states are canon now. Arstarpool 02:55, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well any objections now? All three member states are canon now. Arstarpool 02:55, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

All three are canon indeed but this is rushing unification of the Florida states. They need to have more stable roadways to interconnect the three nations. I support unification but this is all happening way too fast. Maybe sometime around 2015. --GOPZACK 03:14, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

That is way to late and all of us will most likely be gone by then. I chose 2011 because it is far enough away and unification has been a planned thing since the 90's. And actually, couldn't they be an "exclave nation", a nation with no access by land but all share sea access? Nevertheless I will make a couple of modifications to the date so that they all unify at the same time. Arstarpool 03:19, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * We must stick to plausibility we may not be here in five years but he have to keep this timeline in good shape for the next "generation" of contributors. An exclave nation would not work in this environment. In Texas reunification works because the nations are almost beside each other, the three Florida's are spread out and in three separate corners. Maybe a partial reunification could work. --GOPZACK 03:35, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Was thinking about Ocala, 93 Highway, would of Gainesville visted them?, in fact its quite large, wouldent it become some type of city state?--Sunkist- 03:42, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ocala is only 30 miles south on Fla. 93 ( I - 75 ), so there is no reason why the two cities could not have not only known of each other, but Ocala could have been a city of North Florida. If so it would probably be the southernmost town or city of North Florida. Highway 93 Conecting_Florida.png/or I-75 take turns toward bombed areas somewhere south of Ocala, though. The roads east out of Gainesville sneak between bombed out areas to conect to both St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. If we wanted to put the capital in a centrally located city, Lakeland, a small town which had to deal with refugees from both Tampa and Orlando, would be the best choice. It is about equidistant between Gainevile, Daytona and Ft. Myers (junction of state highway 35 and I-4), but may have suffered as being isolated and overwhelmed. It's survivors probably ended up in South Florida, but some would have certainly gone north towards Ocala.
 * To the right is a map showing the probable roads used between the states. (SouthWriter)
 * Guys are there any objections to graduating this page? Arstarpool 04:01, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no hurry, Astar. No reason has been given why St. Augustine should be the capital - South Florida is indeed the strongest of the three nations, with international relations to the Caribbean. First Coast (aka East Florida) probably has connections with the Bahamas and perhaps Bermuda (though probably only through the Bahamas). North Florida (aka "Gainesville") has the University of Florida and possibly the remnants of the original state government, making it an obvious center of governnment as well. First Coast was a late comer in the development of this whole idea of a combined state and should not take the forefront (it is also manifestly weak, being in the midst of so many nuclear strikes). SouthWriter 23:49, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, I chose it for cultural reasons. St. Augustine is a very culturally significant place in Florida; it was one of the first European towns on the mainland and was where Ponce De Leon landed, as well as the location of the "Fountain of Youth". Plus, a unified Florida would need access to the Atlantic, and an Atlantic port would bring in lots of tax money, and that tax money would go to better the capital city and pay for government expenses "on the spot". Arstar [talk] 02:59, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no hurry, Astar. No reason has been given why St. Augustine should be the capital - South Florida is indeed the strongest of the three nations, with international relations to the Caribbean. First Coast (aka East Florida) probably has connections with the Bahamas and perhaps Bermuda (though probably only through the Bahamas). North Florida (aka "Gainesville") has the University of Florida and possibly the remnants of the original state government, making it an obvious center of governnment as well. First Coast was a late comer in the development of this whole idea of a combined state and should not take the forefront (it is also manifestly weak, being in the midst of so many nuclear strikes). SouthWriter 23:49, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, I chose it for cultural reasons. St. Augustine is a very culturally significant place in Florida; it was one of the first European towns on the mainland and was where Ponce De Leon landed, as well as the location of the "Fountain of Youth". Plus, a unified Florida would need access to the Atlantic, and an Atlantic port would bring in lots of tax money, and that tax money would go to better the capital city and pay for government expenses "on the spot". Arstar [talk] 02:59, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, I chose it for cultural reasons. St. Augustine is a very culturally significant place in Florida; it was one of the first European towns on the mainland and was where Ponce De Leon landed, as well as the location of the "Fountain of Youth". Plus, a unified Florida would need access to the Atlantic, and an Atlantic port would bring in lots of tax money, and that tax money would go to better the capital city and pay for government expenses "on the spot". Arstar [talk] 02:59, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, I chose it for cultural reasons. St. Augustine is a very culturally significant place in Florida; it was one of the first European towns on the mainland and was where Ponce De Leon landed, as well as the location of the "Fountain of Youth". Plus, a unified Florida would need access to the Atlantic, and an Atlantic port would bring in lots of tax money, and that tax money would go to better the capital city and pay for government expenses "on the spot". Arstar [talk] 02:59, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

While it may be the only port on the Atlantic, the other side of the peninsula is close enough so that such an argument means little.

Besides, it is also the weakest of the three. If anything, the strongest is the state in southwest Florida. Which is much more likely to be the capital - besides, it's also where the LoN is active.

Lordganon 07:30, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

I really don't mind what city becomes the capital, St. Augustine could be..the Croydon of Florida ( Indiana's first capital ) it can be the face of Florida and have its historical meaning, but with out being the real seat of the government, and have one of South Florida's citys host the government...being like Indianapolis.--Sunkist- 08:26, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Even then, the other two nations both would have like seven times the population of First Coast - each. The Corydon comparison isn't really applicable - at least when it was made the capital it was in the most populated area of the state, while St. Augustine isn't.

Lordganon 08:50, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

I've given up trying to change people's minds when they disagree but technically St. Augustine was the capital back in the day, of Spanish Florida, and it was one of the first colonial settlements on the East Coast. Arstar 00:10, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * So what prevents this article from being graduated? Does the capital just have to be changed?  Mitro 16:52, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall that was the only issue left, though that may be wrong. Lordganon 22:35, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Have I satisfied the objections to the capital issue? If there aren't any objections to that I'm graduating the article a day from now. Arstar 21:44, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Arstar, you still have St. Augustine as the capital, so the objections remain. More than half the population here is in South Florida, so the capital would be there more likely than not - besides, they are also the strongest and best connected by far.

The largest city, as I'm noticed, is also wrong. Cape Coral-Fort Myers (even taking them separately) is much larger than Gainesville would be.

Lordganon 21:57, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

I've changed the largest city but what I don't get is that while South Florida might be more economically exposed buts its one of the least favorable places to put a seat of government. You have constant heat, hurricanes, and occasional flooding. If your going to have to call an emergency every month and move upstate you might as well stay there. Believe me, I live in South Florida, and you spend half the year with shutters on your windows or the governor is calling a state of emergency. Besides 2/3 of the nations are in North Florida.

Gainesville is basically "New Miami", as thousands of Miami college students who hate UM go up there to study at UF instead. Personally I wouldn't see anything wrong with this city being the capital but other than the University and immediate areas its pretty poor and boring.

Saint Augustine, however, has both the infrastructure and the cultural significance to be the capital. It is small, yes, (not counting tourists and Canadians and Northerners who fly south for the winter) but it is the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the US, and it was the capital of Spanish Florida, so it does have some experience as capital. Plus an Atlantic port is pretty needed. Arstar 02:35, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

The population is centered in the south to a large degree - more than half of the population would live there, which should trump or equalize the number of northern states. You have the capital being put in the weakest one of the three, by far, which makes little sense, as others noted.

St. Augustine may have been the capital of Spanish Florida, but it hasnt been the capital in almost 200 years. And that was with the Spanish, not anyone speaking English. I sincerely doubt anyone there would have such an attachment.

I'm aware of the weather reasons for South Florida, but it's Florida. The other two would face similar problems, though maybe not so severe. As for an Atlantic port, South Florida is so close that it's irrelevant.

Quite frankly, even Gainsville would be better - the First Coast is quite frankly too small and impoverished for it even to be a thought.

Lordganon 12:20, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

And since you have South Florida subsidizing First coast with taxes after the union, they would insist on having the capital not there too, and likely in their territory. Lordganon 12:26, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with LG I don't see why the future united Florida would give a rip about what the Spanish did many, many moons ago. It really should be Gainsville or the Cape Coral-Fort Myers region. Furthermore, does St. Augustine have the facilities necessary to be a capital? Considering what LG said above regarding poverty in the region that is doubtful. --Zack 00:45, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Me & South's proposal for the American Shadow Government post-Doomsday. --GOPZACK 02:12, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * So what is going on with this article? Little work has been done, are there plans to move it toward graduation?  If not is someone willing to adopt it?  Mitro 04:18, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Article about the state of New Zealand. Arstarpool 23:03, September 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Arstar started this but for whatever reason he doesn't have the time at present to fully develop the article. I'm going to go ahead and get it started this week, and Arstar and everyone is welcome to contribute as they have the time. By the way, New Zealand is not a state :) .... but I see where someone might come to that conclusion, given how the ANZC has been presented thus far, hence the ongoing effort to determine exactly what the Commonwealth is and isn't. BrianD 17:11, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we've been using the word "state" to refer to the members of the ANZC... but what with both Australia and Micronesia consisting of numerous "states" you're right that it's a poor term. "Constituent countries" might actually not be a bad one. Benkarnell 03:27, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I would like ideas on what to do with this article. This is another article that Arstar has begun and then dropped. There are some good ideas here, but (like many of you) my time is limited and I don't have as much time as I would like to spend on the TL in general. I would argue that we need to nail down exactly what the Commonwealth is, and what Australia and New Zealand's roles are within that Commonwealth. The question regarding this article is do we label it as a proposal, or a stub? Deletion isn't really an option. I don't have a lot of ideas for Australia or New Zealand, and I think we should open this to someone who has the interest and the time to spend on it. --BrianD 16:11, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to mark this article as open for adoption. Mitro 16:53, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Article on Australia, State of the Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand. Arstarpool 23:03, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know, why is this necessary? It will just repeat the info on the ANZC page. --GOPZACK 00:06, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm also of the opinion that both proposals, however well-intentioned, are redundant and unnecessary because they would already be covered under the Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand article. Australia and New Zealand, as established in this timeline, are one country, not two. Also, FYI I'm a caretaker of the ANZC. BrianD 00:11, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify I agree that both are redundant, not just this one. Any objections to marking both as obsolete? --GOPZACK 00:17, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have none. Also, I'll get to work on updating the ANZC article this week. Surprisingly, it's one of those articles that is important to the timeline but no one after Xi'Reney really jumped on it. I went ahead and updated it a while back, and again recently with some minor edits. BrianD 00:22, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really Zack? This is just depicting the states of Australia and New Zealand within the Commonwealth, and depicting the former nations before they unified. Brian I know you are a caretaker of the ANZC. There are three pages on the US now, one depicting the former, the in-exile government, and the new, so why can't there just be two on the states Aussie and New Zealand? Arstarpool 02:26, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really Zack? This is just depicting the states of Australia and New Zealand within the Commonwealth, and depicting the former nations before they unified. Brian I know you are a caretaker of the ANZC. There are three pages on the US now, one depicting the former, the in-exile government, and the new, so why can't there just be two on the states Aussie and New Zealand? Arstarpool 02:26, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

If you want to work on both articles, here's one idea: Both articles would be good in regards to detailing the history of both Australia and New Zealand pre-Doomsday, and perhaps in clarifying differences between the two post-Doomsday. The differences would be primarily cultural, and also political. Australia and New Zealand are generally one country, as that is what Hawke and Muldoon were working towards after DD hit. Their militaries certainly are unified. But how much sovereignty does Australia have over itself, and New Zealand over itself? I'm wondering if the Australian and New Zealand governments are really a thin layer politically between the ANZC and the Australian states and New Zealand local municipalities. This would be good to explore, and could be touched on in the ANZC article and expanded on in Australia and New Zealand - by both of us, and anyone else who is interested in contributing to one of the most important countries in this timeline. BrianD 02:43, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar, to compare the US to the ANZC in terms of the number of articles is absurd, they are two very different nations with very different histories post-Doomsday. Now Brian raises a very interesting & good point regarding the government, but couldn't that just go in a sub article to the ANZC page called "Government of the ANZC" or something like that?
 * Finally Arstar your not helping things when your description is, "Do I really need to explain this?" GOPZACK 02:53, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, because this page is about the blasted islands of Australia and New Zealand! If you made a couple of pages about the states of Kentucky would I fly off the wall? No! So just let me flesh this proposal out before you fly off the wall! Arstarpool 02:59, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Relax, why such anger? I'm just asking you some questions regarding the article and whether it is needed or not. --GOPZACK 03:06, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Zack, I thought it was redundant at first, but the more I think about it, the more I see the potential. If it doesn't rewrite canon and contradict what the ANZC has been established to be, then Arstar should have a chance to flesh out his proposals. He will have help, of course :) But there's nothing in principle that prevents anyone from writing an Australia article no more than one on Kootenai. The Australia article could be used to expand on concepts introduced in the ANZC article. This may be something that other editors, like Mitro, BenKarnell and Xi'Reney, who have previously worked on the ANZC, would want to help with as well. BrianD 03:08, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think it has merit Brian I don't mind taking a wait and see approach. I'm the caretaker of many of the islands chains affiliated with the ANZC so if you need any help in that regard let me know. --GOPZACK 03:14, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's one. Do you have any thoughts on how the islands relate to the central government, or to the nation itself, that need to be addressed in the main ANZC article? BrianD 03:18, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well its not doubt that Australia is the main member of the Commonwealth, like England in the UK or Russia in the former Soviet Union. So it should be mentioned that Australia is the backbone and core of politics of the CANZ. Also, even though several of the islands may share the same political parties those political parties beliefs may differ from island to island. Arstarpool 03:28, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a graphic in the ANZC article addressing the main political parties for Australia, New Zealand and Samoa. It's never been expanded on, and how politics differ from region to region, and in regards to the Commonwealth in general, would be worth exploring. BrianD 03:32, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The way I thought of it, both Australia and New Zealand have ceased to exsist on a Federal level. The country is a Federatioon of States (Queensland as one of them for example). The regions of New Zealand have been be amalgamated to form larger States. HAD 08:23, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is something I've wondered about a lot, and I'm glad somebody has stepped forward to try this. Some important points to consider: (1) Australia is a federal country; New Zealand is not. (2) Both Australia and New Zealand have been around for a while. (3) While Australia may look like the powerhouse, it suffered nuclear attacks on three of its main cities. It's possible that Aukland is the ANZC's largest city.
 * In my own mind, I at first had thought that HAD's suggestion was the most likely: that the government of Australia had ceased to exist, though I figured that NZ as a unitary country would exist as a single state. Now though, I tend to lean toward both governments still existing, with Australia being "sub-federalized". Micronesia already has such a system.
 * Reasons I support such a system: (1) Culturally, Australians would want to maintain a separate political identity; (2) In terms of logistics, diszsolving an entire government would be difficult; (3) Dissolving New Zealand makes even less sense than Australia. If the ANZC were a union of nine states, most of which are Australian, it might give the Aussies undue political weight; (4) Keeping the Australian government emphasizes the ANZC as a union of equals; (5) Even in the ANZC, communication is not what it once was, and I like the idea of the ANZC as a rather loose federation that handles the military and the trade and leaves the four states to fend for themselves on most other issues.
 * Possible objections: The only one I can think of is that three levels of government might result in bureaucratic overlap. If you've got parliaments in Jervis Bay, Canberra, and Brisbane, the potential for waste is obvious.
 * Marc Pasquin, the only contributor AFAIK who actually is Australian, suggested long ago that Australia's state governments were dissolved. While the idea is interesting, I think that the postwar communication slowdown would make the state governments more important than ever. Benkarnell 12:05, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with you, Ben, on communication not being what it once was. I think by now society in general has returned back to 1980s levels in the ANZC, South America, Mexico, and perhaps other places like the Phillippines, parts of Europe and Siberia, Singapore, and the most advanced states in North America. In fact, it's long been canon in this TL that just a couple of years ago that Paul Keating gave a speech that was seen worldwide on TV. It would be most correct to say that technologically TTL is at least a couple of decades behind OTL. I'm also working on the ANZC article now, and initially am being pretty vague as to the layers of government within the Commonwealth. But I expect that the details will get filled in as we continue the discussion of the ANZC government. --BrianD 22:48, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I meant more in the earlier days, around the time that the ANZC was formed. Its institutions would have been crafted to fit the world of 1995, and at that point we know that people Down Under still had basically no idea what was going on in most of the world. I mentioned communication to argue against the idea of dissolving Australia's state governments. Benkarnell 03:25, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said with New Zealand, Arstar started this but currently doesn't have the time to fully develop it. I'll start the article this week, and everyone is welcome to contribute as they have time. Arstar, as I understand, will write up sections regarding Australia's aboriginal people as he has time. BrianD 17:13, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks like ANZ is being presented as a much looser organization than has been understood so far. I think that's fine (and it may be the only way to do this realistically) but I disagree with Australia being militarily independent. A combined military would definitely be one of the main reasons for creating the ANZC, and we've always talked about it having a united armed forces. Benkarnell 03:30, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

I would like ideas on what to do with this article. This is another article that Arstar has begun and then dropped. There are some good ideas here, but (like many of you) my time is limited and I don't have as much time as I would like to spend on the TL in general. I would argue that we need to nail down exactly what the Commonwealth is, and what Australia and New Zealand's roles are within that Commonwealth. The question regarding this article is do we label it as a proposal, or a stub? Deletion isn't really an option. I don't have a lot of ideas for Australia or New Zealand, and I think we should open this to someone who has the interest and the time to spend on it. --BrianD 16:10, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to mark this article as open for adoption? Mitro 16:54, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Made this page a while back and South started expanding it. Arstar 09:18, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections to passing this as a stub for now? Arstar 05:20, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * We should pass stubs only if the subject of the article is firmly encased in canon. Let it remain a proposal until you or South are ready to return to it again or put it up for adoption.  Mitro 16:36, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Chad-Libya War
A war occurring in Africa. CheesyCheese 12:42, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

As I wrote on the talk page for this, it is not plausible as written. Read the history of Greece and Egypt and go off of them, not that Libya article, as it goes against what is in the other articles.

The two Chad sides were equal in strength, and the French forces would run out of supplies at the same time the Libyans would. Makes no sense for them to leave like this, or for the Libyans to not crush Chad without them.

A draw, with the boundary at the 15th parallel, and the northern state controlling parts of southern Libya as well would be better.

Lordganon 02:04, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

I have changed the page so the boundary between the two nations is at the 15th Parallel. I also wrote that contact was lost with Tripoli after Doomsday instead of a nuclear strike, as on the Egypt page it is written that contact was lost with Tripoli after Doomsday. CheesyCheese 20:13, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Much better, though it would likely make more sense for both the French and Libyans to stay put.

Lordganon 03:37, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about that. The main reason Libya invaded Chad was to take control of of the Aouzou Strip. Because Libya was attacked, the Libyans retreated to the Aouzou Strip to make sure it was safe from attack.

The French did not want to help Chad retake the northern half in the real war, and the fact that GUNT and Chad were equal and could not take each other's land, the Libyans leaving, and the nuclear attacks would make them leave. CheesyCheese 15:56, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Libya wasn't attacked on Doomsday. There's no reason at for them to have been.

Thing is cheese, why would they leave with nowhere to go to? The most they could do is retreat to the Central African Republic, which would make very little difference.

Lordganon 16:24, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

I changed it to having the French staying and the Libyans leaving for some time then returning. CheesyCheese 01:11, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

Originally created by Arstar, but I have put some work on it due to my knowledge of the area. Mitro 12:53, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am hoping to finish this article before my wedding. Mitro 16:57, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar on the state of California. Mitro 15:34, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections to passing this article? Arstar 05:39, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do. Only 4 locations in California were struck? Really? California will probably have the most strikes of any single American state. Mitro 13:10, November 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay then, I hadn't really finished the strike list, so I'll get around to that soon. Arstar 04:57, November 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay then, I hadn't really finished the strike list, so I'll get around to that soon. Arstar 04:57, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 16:31, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought Illinois had been declared "full" a long time ago. Benkarnell 03:20, November 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, any objections to marking as obsolete? Mitro 16:17, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

''I do. ''This article has potential to be a rival turned ally for Vandalia. At least I only made it a county big. Plus i don't think Illinois is "full" just yet.

Yank 17:38, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with you Yank. Most of the major population areas were destroyed on Doomsday. Southern Illinois is under control of Kentucky. The Quad Cities are expanding in the northwest. Central Illinois is already written in as a lawless area. Than you have the large state of Vandalia and the small community of Charleston. Am I missing anything? Mitro 17:45, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * O yes, and the wasteland that is the former Chicago metro area. Mitro 16:12, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, well any objections to marking this as obsolete? --Zack 04:30, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Give me and Yank some time and we'll salvage it. Its not exactly the perfect little democratic utopia as I recall so if thats one of the reasons your ruling it out than don't. Arstar 04:35, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is not my reason. Illinois is to crowded for another organized state like this.  Having it here makes the region implausible.  Mitro 01:01, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Owen but improved by others. Mitro 17:32, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Is this article ready for graduation, or do the authors want to fill in a tad bit more? Arstar 05:41, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I would like to do a little more work on the article itself. I realize I'm not the original creator of the idea of Elizabeth City, but I would like to do some work on its early history and then run it by Brian for review.  Mitro 16:38, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Obsolete article resurrected by Arstar. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question concerning this article, who currently is the caretaker? I ask because amongst my other work I have been studying up on Iceland out of curiosity and feel I could flesh this out more so it would be realistic. However, I don't wish to intrude on someone else's project. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 15:43, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it is Arstar. I think if you ask though he would be willing to let you takeover.  I do believe he is trying to shorten his list of proposals.  Mitro 19:32, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I spoke with him and he gave me the okay to move forward.--Fxgentleman 03:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

An obsolete article resurrected by myself. Its a brigand group made up of former fraternity guys who banded together shortly after Doomsday when chaos broke out across Central Illinois. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Defunct state, armed faction sans territory, something else? Benkarnell 23:06, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * More like what I am doing with the Chinks in Eureka. Just another group of survivors who became hard cases.  Mitro 04:20, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Caer. Mitro 13:43, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * So what is going on with this article? Mitro 16:58, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Him and Fx have been planning it out, and making smallish edits. But they are definitely working on it. Lordganon 22:32, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 04:23, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 17:15, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Per a discussion I had with Arstar some weeks back, I am going to be taking over writing this article. Just thought I would let you know.--Fxgentleman 18:59, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Article by Caer, part of the Turkey set of articles. Just a stub at the moment. Mitro 18:24, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by SjorskingmaWikistad. Mitro 02:48, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Until someone decides to pick it up, should it be marked obsolete? Arstar 22:00, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * If that is the case just put it up for adoption. Mitro 01:02, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by HAD. Mitro 14:33, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to edit this chaps. I am rather busy at the moment.HAD 20:25, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

How can we determine if a nations has nukes or not? It is pretty much a fact that the new United States must have at least one remaining nuke as there were many missile silos in Montana, some of which's existence were only revealed recently. Arstar 22:00, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Those silos were also targets on Doomsday. Even if a few missiles remained in the silos they were likely destroyed.  Even if they did survive, it takes a lot of tech and experts to keep a nuke in good shape.  It isn't the type of technology that will work like it is brand new after storing it underground for 100 years.  I really doubt that the survivors in the area would give the time and energy necessary to keep them operational...if there were any left around of course.  Mitro 22:04, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Lexington, Kentucky
Article I created, in consulation with Zack, that he and I will jointly work on. BrianD 03:58, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Jay Leno
Article created by Althistoryluver99. BrianD 22:46, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Sunkist. Mitro 14:57, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Whats going on with this page? Should we mark it obsolete, stub, etc? Arstar 21:57, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Open it for adoption. Lordganon 12:00, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Smoggy. Mitro 14:57, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Following advice from the talk page i have removed reference to a Nuke in Tripoli.--Smoggy80 19:40, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 15:00, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I plan on contributing to this page. Benkarnell 23:03, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take suggestions, and I know you asked me a while back to edit it but I'd rather see what your plans are before you edit it. Arstar 21:48, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take suggestions, and I know you asked me a while back to edit it but I'd rather see what your plans are before you edit it. Arstar 21:48, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 15:00, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Could someone rename the file "Gettysburg"? I'm having trouble renaming files at the moment. Arstar 22:26, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Done.

Lordganon 22:30, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. If someone is interested in adopting this page, let me know. My only guidelines is that its going to be based in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and is a recently reestablished city-state. Arstar 22:57, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

I've been looking into making a state here for a while - but those conditions dont fly with my plans. A shame.

Irregardless, my research into the area shows that the radiation from strikes in Maryland and DC would have passed to either side, for the most part. The area would have been lightly irradiated, but by no means rendered uninhabitable by it.

Lordganon 23:21, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

...Which is why its recently resettled, but recently can mean a lot of things. Any reinhabitation happening after 1999 is my only request. Arstar 01:43, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

I more-so meant that there'd be no need to resettle it, as no one would have left originally.

No matter.

Lordganon 01:51, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Khanate of Khiva
An article about an extremely small nation that is located between Aralia and the Emirate of Bukhara. --Fedelede 18:26, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not even close to finishing the article nor graduating it, but are there any objections currently going on? --Fedelede 15:03, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article by Sunkist. Arstar 02:01, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

IMHO this seems impossibly large to control most of Iowa, touching the entire western Lincoln border and slightly grazing the QCA one. What do the rest of you guys think? Arstar 02:01, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I left comments on its talk page~

Lordganon 02:05, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

The main problem is that the author, Sunkist, doesn't get the concept of "dead space", that more than half of America would be uncontrolled territory, and that plopping large organized states because they simply fit isn't practical.

If it was smaller, than that would be a different story. Arstar 02:34, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

What is happening to this page? Arstar 21:49, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Some research will have to be done into locating where these places were. Information *is * a valuable resource. Jackiespeel 17:46, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Made this a while back, would there be anyone interested in adopting it? Arstar 05:23, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Article by me. Arstar 05:30, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections to graduating as a stub? Arstar 01:23, November 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Arstar, I didn't get a notification when you put the article up. It looks to me like this city-state would have been discovered and mentioned by the explorers from Superior on there way to Madison. It's not like they would be depending on hearsay from wondering clans. Their troops would have gone straight through the county. SouthWriter 19:11, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Meaning what? Arstar 23:27, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Need I remind you of the stink LG gave Sunkist over the interpretation of the reports out of Indiana. A mention of "others" was taken as gospel truth. The Superior article trumps all others written after it. No mention of Winneconne would be inexcusable since such a big deal was made of finding Madison. I don't have to draw a map -- explorers from Superior would definitely have contact with Winneconne. SouthWriter 01:48, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Need I remind you of the stink LG gave Sunkist over the interpretation of the reports out of Indiana. A mention of "others" was taken as gospel truth. The Superior article trumps all others written after it. No mention of Winneconne would be inexcusable since such a big deal was made of finding Madison. I don't have to draw a map -- explorers from Superior would definitely have contact with Winneconne. SouthWriter 01:48, November 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem with the history of Superior is that it specifically stated that Indiana had fallen another fate. Also remember how many other states were formed in the path of the Superior expedition that weren't mentioned in the report. Arstar 02:00, November 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * All the Superior article states is that nomads said they knew of other nomads in Indiana and other places in the Midwest. The article is very specific about the fate of many of the cities along the coast of Lake Michigan and about the liberation of Madison. To assume that they totally "missed" Winneconne is quite a stretch.  Of course, you are currently overseeing Superior, so I suppose you could rectify this problem fairly easily.  However, I think we need to leave the proposal up for further review before moving it to stub status. --SouthWriter 02:21, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

Here's my solution and I want to run it by you. Since this way written at the same time as the Superior rewrite started, I am going to treat it as part of the rewrite, as it wouldn't be fair to just let Canadian states go by and not anyone else, right? Arstar 00:38, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Article by a guy named Cali Boy 1990 who hasn't come on the site since early October. Arstar 05:30, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * His inactivity shouldn't be held against him. We should judge the article on the merits. --Zack 22:23, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Guys we have like 5 nations in California right now, though, whats your opinions on the plausibility of this article? Arstar 22:56, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Guys we have like 5 nations in California right now, though, whats your opinions on the plausibility of this article? Arstar 22:56, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

It's in a non-nuked area of the state, away from other survivor nations, and the region is very agriculturally productive, as well as having a lot of wooden areas.

A good spot for a survivor state, actually.

Though, given everything, I'd move we open it for adoption.

Lordganon 01:30, November 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, LG. Looks like it IS open to adoption.  You want to expand your California state down that way, Arstar? SouthWriter 20:14, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'll mention it in the article. Arstar 04:35, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

The California Republic is really too far for it to be at all plausible to expand to this area. Besides, the nuclear remains of Fresno would be in the way. Lordganon 12:02, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 16:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Provisional Indiana
Article created by Sunkist. Mitro 21:05, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wayne Townships
 * Terre Haute

Article created by Bob. Mitro 14:21, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by a new user, but edited by several editors. I believe Vlad is trying to adopt it. Mitro 17:44, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed I am.--Vladivostok 18:28, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Early canon article that was marked as a proposal again after expansion began on it. Mitro 23:03, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

An article about largest cities atl me and south have been working on.

Lordganon 21:28, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

Damn, I swear I was about to make a page on this...would you mind if I wrote some on the Great Lakes Cities? Arstar 01:09, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

So long as it fits the context, I suppose.

Lordganon 01:59, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Are we counting metropolitan areas or just cities? Because I see some cities are counting metro areas (Midland-Odessa) while others like Niagara Falls and St. Catherines are considered separate. If we're allowed to list metro areas than I'm going to merge St. Catherines and Niagara Falls. Arstar 17:15, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

A couple of the cities have listings like that simply because they are so close together and as centers of government (or quoted populations) they will have expanded so that there's only a short distance between the two. Think of it like the LA area otl - LA itself is fairly small by comparison, but going through the area if you didn't know better you'd never notice (ignoring signs, etc of course) that it wasn't all a single city. These are essentially a single city now.

With Niagara Falls and St. Catherines, you do have the Canadian side pretty close. However, most of the population of the Falls is on the other side. I just don't see it expanding far enough to warrant them being the same city.

Overall, the populations I've used, while not the "city" populations, are not really the "metro" ones either. On some pages you'll see "urban" population, and its more like that.

I've also removed the Wisconsin city you added, and adjusting Florence. The Florence population, when added to "North" Tuscany, is more than the entire Tuscan population, despite it being fought over once, and by the same figures, is larger than in otl, by a large margin (as is your 1981 figure, by around 100,000). Madison as you list has more people than the republic of Wisconsin, of which it is the capital - when you adjust that population in relation, its not even close to the list.

Lordganon 00:02, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

As a South Floridian I have to say there's a pretty big difference between Cape Coral and Fort Myers. ~Arstar

There is 8 miles between the two otl - as far as I'm concerned, with an expanded population, and it being a capital, it is now essentially one city atl. Lordganon 12:05, December 14, 2010 (UTC)

New article on a defense organization in the Eastern Mediterranean by Ownerzmcown and myself. A work in progress currently. Caeruleus 04:48, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

I hope you don't think I'm copying you but I'm intending to make a similar organization exclusively for the democratic (and communist) successors to Warsaw Pact nations to oppose the Siberians. I wouldn't have a problem with them being on good terms with the Mediteranian Association though. Arstar 05:18, December 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Caeruleus 05:41, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here we go. I've had this idea probably for a lot longer than you have, Caer. So I aint copying, wait...actually it wouldn't be copying at all since the only thing they'd share in common is they don't like the Siberians. So nevermindthen. Arstar 06:00, December 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here we go. I've had this idea probably for a lot longer than you have, Caer. So I aint copying, wait...actually it wouldn't be copying at all since the only thing they'd share in common is they don't like the Siberians. So nevermindthen. Arstar 06:00, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Name is temporary. Pretty much democratic version of the Warsaw Pact, hoping to keep the Socialist Union from taking over East Europe. Arstar 06:00, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't fit into my planning at all, so I must respectfully say that none of the in former Soviet territory from Belarus southwards in Europe, or Balkan nations, will be joining.

Lordganon 07:08, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Arstar I warned you already please deal with the proposals above before getting into a new one. You now have some 14-15 odd proposals are articles your contributing to. Please deal with them. --Zack 20:29, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Zack I'm sorry but I have like 9 I'm actually working on. There's like half of them that I gave up for adoption so most likely I have at most which are mine like 7. There's like two I've made obsolete and a bunch more that are also other people's works. Most likely you went to the Proposal category and counted every proposal that was made by me as mine, so fact-check better next time please. Arstar 21:19, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Albania
Basically the country described by Macedonia near the end of the history section. It's a parliamentary republic and is now a protectorate of Macedonia. Ownerzmcown 22:52, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

Article by Lukesams. I don't think it can work with this TL. Mitro 01:15, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT REVIEWS=

Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the   template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed the proposal template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be mared as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the proposal template will be removed without having to change the article.

Since Arstar added the "review" template to this and neglected to add it here, I'll do it (>.>;). Seems to be an issue between this article and the Alpine Confederation in regards to the size and territory.

North of Switzerland, the boundaries of the Confederation, outside of a single sentence, have never really been fleshed out. Guess we need to do that now, lol.

Lordganon 07:14, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Swabia-Wurttemburg interpreted the borders the same way I did in my early Germany map. It doesn't conflict with Canon because it wasn't fleshed out. I don't see any issue.Oerwinde 10:05, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Owen has now taken it upon himself to "edit" the article, without permission. Could someone please get rid of all the horrid edits?

Lordganon 12:12, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

there is no issue then Owen1983 12:41, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

....how on earth do you get that? I only asked for a rollback because I have no desire to do eight undos myself.

Lordganon 12:45, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

This is my concern. It is canon that the Alpine Confederation controls the areas around the Rhine River. Now during the current revision I accidentally deleted the specifics but go into the history of the AC right before I started editing it a lot and you will see the exact boundaries. What I don't get is how come only recently was the [provisional] government of Bavaria formed from several small communities when this nation was there? Or better yet how could this state form if there was a very bad refugee crisis in the AC coming from Germany and Italy that they had no other choice but to take control of the lands? Arstar [talk] 01:12, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

The boundaries given in the history are far from exact, Arstar, especially given the loss of Freiburg. An island of authority somewhere in the region would make sense, given the large amount of non-irradiated territory, though the boundaries should likely be adjusted in the south.

Bavaria had more strikes, which also had the effect of isolated much of the area, making that situation plausible. It also has a much greater population as well.

Lordganon 00:45, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that why would the Alpines try to make some form of provisional authority in southern Germany if one existed already? The history states that during the beginning of the refugee crisis it got so bad they had to take control of the areas around them. No matter what, this would apply to much of Swabia-Wurttenburg in some capacity. Sure, in the physical sense, the land there was spared of nuclear strikes, but does that mean that for every plot of land that was spared of the physical effects of Doomsday would also survive the later on stages? Arstar [talk] 02:17, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

What you are missing is that the size of these areas, nor the cities in them, has never been clarified. The best reference says that they took control over areas around the Rhine river south of Freiburg - well away from this area - which would logically extend to the area right around the Bodensee as well. This means that most of the area controlled by this state would be outside alpine control.

The only area that the Alpines have done a provisional authority for is Bavaria. The existence of some sort of state in this area, especially given the late formation dates bandied about, is logical.

As far as I'm concerned, the southern parts of this nation should be either Alpine or uninhabited. But until some sort of boundaries are actually made for the Confederation - following a community consensus - this should not be done.

Lordganon 02:30, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

But why would they create a provisional authority, most likely a fund-draining process, if there was already a functioning government close to Switzerland? Or better yet, why don't they arrange for a unification between the Bavarian communities and Swa-Wurt? Arstar [talk] 03:03, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Bavarians are very.... independent minded. I doubt they'd go along with something like that (think of what would happen if someone announced Texas would be put under some other state government - the reaction would be similar) even given the situation in the area.

Call the creation of it as making the bordering areas more stable. Couldn't blame them for that at all.

The problem with this article is that no history has been fleshed out worth mentioning - we only have the current picture. Shouldn't be too hard to find out a way to make it possible.

Outside of Augsburg, there doesn't seem to be any Bavarian communities in that area - thus rendering it mostly relatively uninhabited, so they are basically fighting over nothing - but the net result is the distance between the two would render it impossible for one to rule the other.

Lordganon 08:08, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ahh...... much better. Now undo the rest of the bad edits please, lol.

Lordganon 03:49, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

So what is going on with this article? Do the objections still stand? Mitro 14:27, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah - a fair part of the southern areas of the article do conflict with the Alpine Confederation. In my mind, I think Arstar should edit the article as needed, while keeping it canon, to bring it in line, since Jni hasn't and Arstar's the Alpine Caretaker.

Lordganon 03:34, October 16, 2010 (UTC) When I did up the original map of possible German nations, based on the Alpine article I had Ravensburg pretty much as the southernmost area of a Wurttemburg state. Maybe edit the boundaries to be more like that?--Oerwinde 08:08, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

So what is up with this review? It has been a month since there has been any discussion on it. Can it return to canon? Mitro 14:42, November 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless there area anymore objections, I am going to return this article to canon. Mitro 16:48, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the original objections still stand, unfortunately.

All things considered, this should probably be opened for adoption. Could be dealt with from there.

Lordganon 21:26, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1, Archive 2

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''