User talk:Lordganon

Mitro 03:10, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Archive, Archive 2, Archive 3, Archive 4

Congratulations, Lordganon


You are the winner of the 2011 Stirling Award for Best Writer in a Community Timeline in 2010 for your work in 1983: Doomsday. Though you technically won the award a while ago, I officially congratulate you for your achievements and formally present you with this award. Good luck in the next year! Red VS Blue 17:56, January 26, 2011 (UTC)

USSR's map
Hey LG, I'd like to ask for a favour, if that is ok with you. I was wondering if you would be willing to create a new map for Siberia after the new expansion takes place and is finished somewhere between early May-late June. I'm still sort of leaning towards a push in the direction of the north, but I was hoping to do one towards the south, around five to six months after the one in the north. I decided on this after I looked at Kazakhstan more thoroughly and realized that the USSR didn't have to a large area of Kazakhstan to reach Aralia, only around half of Aktobe and a large part of Kostanay, which would benefit them if wheat could still be grown there.

In any case, let me know if your up for it.--Vladivostok 17:30, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, well, lets look over what I had in mind then. I was thinking of them controling that small part of the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug they aren't already. I was thinking they would expand slightly in Komi, so they would control about half of it. The Arkhangelsk oblast would then take up the majority of the expansion, around 3/4 of it within control. The whole SK annexation happens as planned of course. However, I wasn't sure about Murmansk Oblast. It is fairly empty, other than the Sapmi state, and they aren't really that friendly with the NU. Possible occupation?

Oh, and it would be great if the USSR map would have the various territories and republics highlighted, like the current one has. Once again, thanks for doing this, the current map is getting a bit grainy, lol.--Vladivostok 09:37, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well ok then, that is a bit disappointing, as one of the other reasons to enter the region was a port in Murmansk to give them some access to the Atlantic again. Although a port in Arkhangelsk or former SK would probably work just as well. My plan for announcing this was as follows: I'd announce today that the forces amassing on the USSR's western borders were indeed sent out to grab land and to formally annex SK.

Then, I'd also write that the start of this move would take place on the 5th of May as well. You don't have to finish the map by then, there is no rush, as it would take some time (a month, probably more) to acquire the land and secure it. The name I was thinking of would be something like the Northwestern Territory, but I'm open to suggestions.--Vladivostok 10:06, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

I have just now realized I accidentally reverted one of your edits to the Doomsday page. Sorry, I didn't mean anything by it, I was just checking some of the edits on a mobile device and clicked revert by mistake. I welcome the edits and making the list more complete for the USSR.--Vladivostok 17:28, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

Military Alliance to be announced?
I remember you saying that the military alliance between Chumash and Visaili would be announced today October 1, so I was wondering if we were still going along with that or if it was to be put on hold or what? Yes I did read the post on the WCRB news page about Visaili and the Chumash ambassador visiting. Just get back to me when you can about military operations against Ventura and Santa Cruz (I know you said Ventura specifically but Santa Cruz is still a threat, and going down the 101 is pretty much a straight shot into the central coast, also I don't know where you got "mountains between Chumash and Bakersfield" remember I live here and its pretty much a 2 and a half hour drive into Kern and a 3 hour drive into Bakersfield with only a few small hills along the way). Anyways best of luck. Riley.Konner 10:10, October 1, 2011 (UTC) EDIT reversion:Sorry I just noticed that know were in that discussion did you mention any "mountains" that's my mistake and it will never happen again. Riley.Konner 10:33, October 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen what has been posted, and thank you for updating the Chumash page. In addition to the highways mentioned, Chumash can also send a few Bradley tanks to Visali via highway 46 (though that highway is a death trap lol) and 41. Bombing also sounds good, and naval bombardments from Chumash. I'm thinking a battle between the CRS Santa Barbara and a Venturan ship being called a modern battle between the USS Constitution and the HMS Guerriere. Also I'm working on a WCRB post that is a response given by Vilodari Scholairi and his vows to crush both the countries. Also I thought of a name for the Visali-Chumash alliance I'm thinking Organized States of California or the OSC. As for Mozambique that is at the bottom of my to do list, I'll see what happens in a couple of months. Riley.Konner 12:24, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Siberian expansion and the areas around Novgorod, Sapmi and Finland
Hey Ganon, I'd like to propose something regarding the territory the SIberian expansion would cover.

Now, based on the map of the NU, could the Siberians take what is left of Karelia and the area between Novgorod and the NU? This would cause tension and I was thinking of adding a bit about some skirmishes or incidents happening while Northern Hammer took place. Nothing serious but I mean, why hype the return of the USSR into this area if there isn't going to be any tension. Let me know what you think and feel free to say where the borders could start between these countries.Vladivostok 18:08, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is true I haven't been as active as I should have been, sorry about that. In any case, it is a shame that Novgorod controls that area, I was hoping the Siberians would be the ones to acquire the ruins of Leningrad, oh well.

But I was hoping for the annexation of the Kola peninsula, I wanted to have a sort of Berlin airlift event in which the Siberians try and cut off Sampi, only to have the NU basically make their efforts worthless with air support.

I didn't think it was a stretch because the troops that would occupy the area would be from Soviet Karelia, not the principal forces of the USSR.--Vladivostok 11:03, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Well, after taking a look at the geography of Kola, I see you're right, a lot of mountain ranges are on the peninsula. But they are in the west and north part of the peninsula, the south-east is mostly flat areas. Now, it is true that these areas are difficult to reach, especially because other that some smaller cities on the coast, there aren't any roads. However, they don't actually have to physically patrol the area just yet to stake their claim.

Now of course air support would be scarse at best in the first expansion, but having just a couple of planes patrol the air space in this area would come a long way in discouraging any other group from trying to take that said area.

Now I also just wanted to bring up the new map for the USSR and the area in general. As far as the rest of the expansion, are we on the same page? So, I believe we said when we originally discussed this ages ago that they would take most of Arkhangels oblast, half of the Republic of Komi and Soviet Karelia.Vladivostok 10:43, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Qu'il Tous
So I think for our next step for Qu'il Tous, its time to start getting into some of the more political details of America and France, mostly by created an article for the Prime Ministers of France, Speaker of the House, somethings for the Senate of the US, and maybe a list of British Prime Ministers. Ownerzmcown 03:34, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Spotlight Request
Hi. Alternative History Wiki looks great and I've added it to the approved spotlight list. -- Wendy (talk ) 02:36, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations... Myself?


If I don't leave this here, it will 100% slip my mind, lol. Lordganon 08:43, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Post-War Balkans
Hey, LG, I really like the maps, they really came out well. My only concern is the extent to which Bosnia has expanded, it appears as though they seemed to draw into a lot of Serbia land, which I didn't expect. Of course I'm a bit of a perfectionist so it may just be that I don't like the irregular shape. Anyway, now that the war part is over, I will get around to writing in about it on the Macedonia page. If there's anything left to do just message me.

- Ownerzmcown (talk) 16:58, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Location for the Protestant Reformation
Would it be plausible for the Protestant Reformation to begin anywhere other than Northern Germany and Switzerland? This is for PMII, and the nations I was wondering about were Are any of these locations plausible? I know that this event would be 50 years away or more in-game, but I am assuming that it would be unlikely for the political landscape in Europe to change drastically during that time to be significantly different from OTL (other than perhaps a Scottish presence on Ireland, a less unified France, or the Ottomans having conquered less of the Balkans than in OTL) LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:08, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hungary
 * Bohemia (perhaps as a revival of Hussitism)
 * The Dutch/Frisian areas
 * (probably northern) France
 * England
 * Scotland
 * Ireland
 * Anywhere on the Balkan side of the Adriatic coast

In the game, currently, I am seeing the most likely cause for the beginning to be a rejection of the massive church taxes. Considering that the Papal states in this game have actually gone to war with another nation, I imagine that they are going to need a much greater source of money. Thus, the idea of a monarch refusing to fund the war seems to be likely. I'll be able to give a better picture in a couple weeks though. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:59, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

OK: here's the situation: It is 1466, and Scotland is invading Ireland. The English, who want Ireland all to themselves, bring up an ancient old Papal bull and say they have the sole rights to invade Ireland to crush some heretics there. This convinces the Pope to start sending supplies to those heretics to help them resist the invasion of the Scottish. Would Scotland breaking away from the Catholic Church in response to this hypocritical action of the Pope be realistic at this time? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:16, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

A Soviet Axis
I have another idea about a Soviet Axis. I did a bit of research, and it seems that most of Hitler’s generals wanted to go through N. Belgium, not the Ardennes. What if Hitler listened to those generals and went that way? They would meet high numbers of Allied troops, and could potentially cause a stalemate. Additional troops would pour in from other parts of France and UK, and we could have another WW1 type situation in Belgium or River Somme. Could you check the Timeline again? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:52, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Also, is an invasion of Switzerland really not going to happen? I found this on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:39, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose that's not plausible. But I saw that Belgian intelligence had figured out Germany would attack through the Ardennes region, and would use paratroopers to go behind the lines. But the Allies didn't listen. What if they had listened?

"In the winter of 1939–1940, the Belgian consul-general in Cologne had anticipated the angle of advance that Von Manstein was planning. Through intelligence reports, they deduced that German forces were concentrating along the Belgian and Luxembourg frontiers. The Belgians were convinced that the Germans would thrust through the Ardennes and to the English Channel with the aim of cutting off the Allied field Armies in Belgium and north-eastern France. They also anticipated that the Germans would try to land airborne and glider forces behind the Allied lines to break open Belgian fortifications. Such warnings were not heeded by the French, or British."

"On March 1940, Swiss intelligence detected six or seven Panzer Divisions on the German-Luxembourg-Belgian border. More motorized divisions had also been detected in the area. French intelligence were informed that the Germans were constructing pontoon bridges partially—about halfway—over the Our River on the Luxembourg-German border[citation needed] through aerial reconnaissance. The French military attaché in the Swiss capital—Berne—warned that the centre of the German assault would come on the Meuse at Sedan, sometime between 8 and 10 May. The report was dated 30 April. These reports had little effect on Gamelin."

Also, the reason the BEF/French forces were forced to evacuate at Dunkirk was because they were surrounded and cut off after German forces invaded France. If Allied forces hadn't rushed into Belgium, couldn't they have slowed down the German invasion?

Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also, and yet, Wikipedia says otherwise. It says Manstein’s plan “provoked a storm of protest from the majority of German generals.” (Battle of France, “Adoption of Manstein’s Plan”). Even though Hitler liked his idea, if Manstein had never come to Hitler’s attention, the attack would have gone into Belgium. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 22:41, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, if Chamberlain had not appeased Hitler, and stood up to him, could the war have been delayed for another 5-6 months? If then, the entire invasion of France/the Low Countries could have bogged down. Thoughts? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:31, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Then if the war started in Czechoslovakia, how would the war have gone? There is, obviously, no way for Britain or France to help. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:46, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Also, if Operation Pike had been moved up before the invasion of the Soviet Union, could that have led to war between the USSR and the Allies, thus leading them making an unholy alliance with the Germans? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:07, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. That's true. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 22:48, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Then is there any way the invasion of Poland or Germany could have been postponed one year, leading to OP? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 22:49, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose conflict between Germany and the USSR is inevitable? I think there might be other ways out there, but in case there is really 0 percent probability, what would you say is the best name for the TL? Assuming, of course, that we are going under "no appeasement". PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 22:56, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Any ideas on that? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:19, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Dammit I was going to rename it Fall Grün... until I realized there was already a featured TL with that same name. Grr. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:19, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

For the name, how about “Chamberlain Grows a Backbone”? Lol. But more seriously, how about Munich Agreement Failure? Although I like “A Soviet Axis” better :( PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:12, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe even Case Green, although that is kind of a “copy” of Fall Grün. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:13, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Chamberlain receives false information that the Germans are under prepared and will not invade Czechoslovakia, and thus gains the courage to stand up to Hitler. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:01, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Is this a good PoD?
 * In 1937, fearing Nazi aggression, the British Secret Intelligence Service managed to recruit an agent in the Nazi Party, who was only known as his code name SONGBIRD. He was a personal aide of Albert Speer. SONGBIRD gave highly accurate information regarding the Nazis and their logistical capabilities, as well as their current stocks of food, weapons, and other supplies. However, in 1938, he sent false information regarding current weapon stocks, which lead to Neville Chamberlain believing that the Wehrmacht is not ready to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938, and will stand down. Due to these, he does not choose the policy of appeasing Hitler, and instead commits British support in case of a German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Hitler invades anyway, and the German army becomes bogged down in Czechoslovakia.

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:57, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

How about this revised PoD: PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:02, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * In 1932, Hans Oster, an officer of the German Army, does not get into trouble and is not forced to resign. Due to this, he rises and eventually ends up on General Staff prior to the German takeover of Czechoslovakia. After hearing Hitler's plans, Oster went to the British, where he volunteered to be a spy. He was soon code-named SONGBIRD. Oster gave highly accurate information regarding the Nazis and their logistical capabilities, as well as their current stocks of food, weapons and other supplies. However, just before the Munich Agreement in 1938, he accidentally sent false information regarding current weapon stocks, which led Neville Chamberlain to believe that the Wehrmacht is not ready to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938, and would stand down. Due to these, he does not choose the policy of appeasing Hitler, and instead commits British support in case of a German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Hitler invades anyway, and the German army becomes bogged down in Czechoslovakia.

Which is why I chose Oster. In fact, he actually apparently told his friend in the Netherlands when the invasion date of the Low Countries would be, hoping they could delay the Germans. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:20, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

'Nother revised Pod? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:43, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * In 1932, Hans Oster, an officer of the German Army, does not get into an affair with his commanding officer’s wife and is not forced to resign. Due to this, he rises and eventually ends up on General Staff prior to the German takeover of Czechoslovakia. In 1938, during Krystalnacht, his 17 year old daughter Barbara was raped and murdered by drunken Nazis. He became furious at the Nazis-however, in order to keep his life, he kept that a secret. Later that year, after hearing Hitler's plans, Oster went to the British, where he volunteered to be a spy. He was soon code-named SONGBIRD. Oster gave highly accurate information regarding the Nazis and their logistical capabilities, as well as their current stocks of food, weapons and other supplies. However, just before the Munich Agreement in 1938, he accidentally sent false information regarding current weapon stocks, which led Neville Chamberlain to believe that the Wehrmacht is not ready to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938, and would stand down. Due to these, he does not choose the policy of appeasing Hitler, and instead commits British support in case of a German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Hitler invades anyway, and the German army becomes bogged down in Czechoslovakia.

If he had not ended up on the General Staff, would he still have been able to get that information? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 18:57, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Also, he had a daughter Barbara who would have been 17 during Krystalnacht. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 18:58, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Anyhow, I have a finalized PoD, how is it? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:44, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

I have another revised PoD, will you look at it? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:16, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, revised PoD and revised name at: Hans Oster, the Good Nazi. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:30, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Fack! Any suggestions to the name? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 19:52, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, although I liked the "Good Nazi" name :( Obviously based off of Albert Speer, the Good Nazi. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:00, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

King and Queen
LG, I just thought of the most insane thing: What would have happened if Princess Charlotte (who was Princess of Wales), became the Queen and married William, Prince of the Netherlands? What would have happened between the two nations? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:02, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I get it now.

Lol, Victoria and Albert for Belgium. Makes some sense. Yes! Belgium's time of greatness! Forget Congo, let's take all of Southern Africa and Flanders and the BeNeLux! Victory for Belgium! Victory for waffles! Down with pancakes! XD, yes a mighty Belgium would make quite a ridiculous story.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:23, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't have said it better, mate. Completely true on that point. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:38, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Greenland (1983:DD)
I must admit that I have been out of the loop much of the summer. To top it off, I don't seem to get email alerts when the main talk page of 1983:DD is altered. My mind being elsewhere, I don't think to check there or even wiki-wide posts for that matter.

I say this to perhaps remove the suspicion you might have for my recent reversion of the Greenland stub back to fx's work which you put up for review and then changed after the review was "over." It is not that your arguments were unsound, but rather because you do not seem to have contacted fxgentleman during the review period. If you wish to put the article back under review after notification, I support that move, but I respectfully ask that you do not get into an editing war over this. SouthWriter (talk) 20:52, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly do not believe you read your talk page, Ganon. Otherwise, your reaction to the revert is explicable. Of course it was a "Community Review," but with no input from the caretaker of the article at all. It is somewhat suspicious that you chose a period when fx is not active to pick on a stub -- not even a full fledged page -- that he had produced and had accepted. Common courtesy would call for at least some feed back from him. I am in a hard place here, Ganon, since it seems only you and I are active in the top tier -- you a lot more than me. I have no choice but to sometimes contradict you. As I point out above, I see no problem in you changing things. It is the way you change things that is a problem. I cannot change you, so I must at times stand against you. --SouthWriter (talk) 04:34, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Questions
1) What if Mark Antony had not by defeated at Actium but instead had won, perhaps even killing Octavian and Agrippa when their ship(s) were accidently rammed by friendly ships even the attempts to flee?

2) What if Julius Caesar had been warned of the Senator's plot and escaped being killed by the Senators?

3) What if Julius Caesar had never been born?

4) What if St.Paul had gone on mission trips to the East intstead of to the West for whatever reason (God, fear of death, etc.) and St.Thomas had preached to the West?

5) What if Julius Caesar, when he was fleeing Alexandria he had been delayed for several minutes and was killed by Arsinoe's forces?

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 00:40, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Stub
I'm sorry if I sound stupid, but you've reverted most of my stub edits on pages. I just want to know, then, what constitutes a stub. Thanks! PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:37, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I suppose I'll be more thoughtful next time when I attach the category. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:05, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Re:RA Notes
Greetings. Speak of the Devil, I was hoping to get your opinion here, and you beat me to it. Glad you like it, and glad it all came out right. If at all possible, I just wanted to clarify an idea I thought of after reading your comments. What of a 1905-like revolution taking place later on (prior to WWI), and allowing the timeline to sync with 1917 and so on. But I am pretty sure this won't work, so ignore me if it is a bad idea.

I will have to do more reading about the revolution and the civil war, but how different do you mean? Bloodier and longer... would this have any affect towards the formation of the USSR (or even a similar outcome)?

I wasn't aware that the Five Races flag was unpopular (would explain why it isn't used today). But, I don't see any other choice, and I personally like the design (original, identifiable, and simple). My argument would compare this to how Germans weren't too fond of the black-red-gold tricolor, but after Nazi rule (and the Allies doing what they wanted), the tricolor remained. I would see this being the same, especially since Japan would help reestablish a monarchy in China after WWII, and not for the fact that this flag was used multiple times by the Japanese OTL (just look at the flags for and the ).

As for Afghanistan and Persia, no need to worry. I already looked into them and agree that there would be no difference.

Thank you again. Glad you like the idea. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:47, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your input. I believe I can work from here. It also may work out for how I have envisioned Alaska being a "White haven," but I need to work on it.


 * I am rather upset that this flag was actually hated (it was quite clever IMHO). But since I see being appointed Emperor, I guess using the Qing flag isn't a bad idea. It would also make sense why EVERYBODY uses it, lol.


 * Also, because I noticed you added a new category, how is Valkyrie Rides biased? (or ASB for that matter?) I didn't see anything wrong with it? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:00, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I just thought of something that I would love to get your two cents on. What if Alexander II wasn't assassinated? Russia would have transformed into a (somewhat) constitutional monarchy. I was thinking this could lead to a 1905-like reform, and allowing the revolutions and civil war to be (more or less) the same. What do you think? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:45, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

1983: Doomsday
I couldn't find my original message, so I've restarted it.

Do you know of any improtant post-doomsday cities that aren't claimed yet (worldwide?)

In North America, I'd prefer a central-eastern region, somewhere where's there's room to thrive.

I don't suppose any Pacific or Caribbean islands are available?

Anywhere in the former Congo?

Oh, and by the way, you might want to rename Nanchung to Nanchang and relocate it south of the Dragon State, or whoever made the latest map.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:48, October 10, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

I meant for the map-it still shows Nanchang as being in the west near Sichuan, when it should be south of the Dragon State. There's no such city as Nanchung, only Nanchang, which is in the former province the Dragon State is in.

Canuck2012 (talk) 19:38, October 10, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

EoGuy
What do you think about making him a part of the TSPTF because of his simply amazing copyediting work over the past few months? I know that it's supposed to be a year, but I think we can make an exception in this case. Thoughts? PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:38, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Edits
Damn, I meant to do this the day it happened, then completely forgot...

But, hey, happy (very belated) 50,000 edits!

even though I am some 2,500 edits late...

The Royal Guns (talk) 18:36, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Questions
1) What if Oliver Cromwell had become King/Emperor/etc. of England, maybe absolute or not; also what is a possible POD for him becoming a monarch

2) What if the royalist won the English Civil War?

3) What if Frederick the Great had children?

4) What if Richard Cromwell had not been incompetent and was able to rule a republican England?

5) What if Zwingli had not died at the Battle of Kappel but instead had survived and fled to either Poland or the Balkans or Scotland?

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 19:27, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's based on game so I can't really write everything about that. It was meant to be only about one war. Also, I'm here only one day, so stuff about "no interest in improving" sounds just - sorry - funny. Chillax mate.

If it's wrong to write only about conflict or add stuff everyday, well - there's nothing much I can do about that. Delete if you wish, or if there is no other way.

Anjin Miura (talk) 08:46, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Grammer vs. Gomez
It occurred to me that Kelsey Grammer of Frasier fame is, in OTL, a registered and proud Republican. Maybe he ought to be the running mate of Brian Williams in Napoleon's World as a conservative counterweight on the National Party ticket instead of the fictional Alex Gomez? He could be the Senator of Florida (where he grew up), for example. What do you think?

KingSweden (talk) 05:05, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

True true, specially since the National Party is more Rockefeller Republican than Tea Party in ATL. OR I could just make Grammer not be a tea partier in his convictions, since I neither Robert Redford, Brian Williams nor Steve Martin are known for being conservatives (particularly Redford) yet in NW they are all part of the National Party.

KingSweden (talk) 17:41, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think I'll just make Grammer the Senate Majority Leader.

KingSweden (talk) 00:22, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Ugh yeah I know I should. How do I do that?

KingSweden (talk) 03:26, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

A Bunraku Sock?
Hey LG, long time no talk. Anyways, I just wanted to bring something to your attention. We have two users (mapgamers really), this guy and this other person, that claim to be brother and sister. However, this whole brother and sister thing really seems to be working out for them, and they're practically allied in most of their map games in common. Call me too presumptive, but do I smell a dirty sock? Or is it a puppet? I hope you catch my wind.

Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 01:41, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hey there. Just thought I'd drop you a line and ask why you took out the changes I made to the "Japanese Victory" page? Vexacus

I do not want to REMOVE anything from it, I want to ADD to it. I;m hoping to adopt the TL

I do not want to break any of the wiki's rules. I do not intend to REMOVE anything from the "Japanese Victory" page, rather I want to add to the start and expand beyond what was originally written. I hope to adopt the page

Vexacus

OK, thank-you for explaining that. And if yhou undo my edits, will I be able to undo your undo if I am allowed to adopt the page?

Vexacus

Prussian Generals
Hey LG. How are you? I was hoping you could provide a list of Generals in the Prussian, Spanish, and Austrian Armies during the Napoleonic Wars. I've been looking everywhere and I ownly found a few, most of them notable. Enclavehunter (talk) 23:15, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thank-you for explaining that to me. I have copied down all the changes I had made and have a list of changes I hope to make if I am allowed to adopt the page. So my fingers, toes any anything else that can be is crossed

Vexacus

Continental Association
What I was thinking several scenarios that would change the American Revolution, all PODs occuring before the continental association.

1) What if the Catholic Quebecois continued the war against the British as Francs-tireurs causing them to be more and more repressed until they eventually go into full open revolt against the British, possibly with the help of the more southern British Colonies.

2) What if the Spanish did not leave in a mass exodus from Florida after the French and Indian War but instead the Spanish crown thought it would be to expensive, or really anything that would stop them from leaving after the war, and the many Spanish Catholics stayed there. Afterwards the similar concessions made to Quebec did not occur and when invited to revolt against the Protestant, repressing, spiteful British they took their chances and joined.

3) What if East and/or West Florida joined the revolution by some other means (use whatever POD you can dream up)

4) What if the Continental Association also imeadiatley banned exports to Britian, thus hurting their economy and supply of wood, food, and unproduced goods. This causes the British to start the revolution earlier, maybe February 1775 or earlier with a battle against the colonial militia. Or perhaps whatever else this effect would have on the revolution.

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 01:27, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

you got a min?
anon user  150.203.223.120  blanked my talk page would you or another admin take care of them for me?

thanks in advance.

Wingman1 05:31, October 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Someone reverted the vandalism. I blocked the user for 6 months. Hope that is alright. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:03, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * yea it's good now. thanks.[[Image:Temp.png|30px]] Wingman1 18:23, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Quick concept
Greetings, LG. I would like to get your two cents on an idea I just read about. I'm sure you remember that in Russian America, Germany would become divided. So let's assume early on (since all the powers pretty much did), Germany was going to be permanently divided (not temporarily occupied). With that, wouldn't it make more sense for most of the (the parts of Germany that now make up western Poland) to remain in any rump state?

I came across this idea here, and it does make some sense. However, I would like to get your two cents on this before I go any further. For the record, I would intend for southern East Prussia, Danzig, and Upper Silesia to go to Poland. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:10, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

I am glad to help, and I am glad that I didn't go too far on that block.

I am rather confused? I thought you were in favor of a divided Germany (regardless), now you want what happened OTL? If anything, I know where you are (I am loosing interest in this idea myself).

But trying to look at all possibilities, I have one idea that I would like to explore, and would like a second opinion on. Poland is annexed into the Soviet Union after WWII. My reasoning for this would be that (like the Baltic States), Poland was once part of the Soviet Union; and since the Soviets would also annex Mongolia and Uyghuristan ATL, Poland could be interesting. I have read mostly negative opinions on this idea, but considering how different RA is, it might have a better chance here. Along with which, this Polish SSR would not include any part of Germany (obviously excluding Danzig, East Prussia, and Upper Silesia). The remaining parts of the Recovered Territory would remain part of the Soviet-backed Prussia, since there would be no need to add more Germans to the USSR (and possibly as a way for the West to accept a Polish SSR). Since it would be technically part of the USSR, all of East Prussia (including Kaliningrad) would become part of Poland (if not right away, then later [since Russia offered the port to Lithuania later on]), and maybe Lvov would be given to Poland as a sign of good hope. Either way, Poland would become independent around 1991, and may follow the Baltic States towards being anti-Soviet.

And if this is a stupid idea, what would be your take on the ? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:30, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Adoption of Timeline
My Lord, it is permissible for me for adopting the OFA Chinese Empire timeline and change its basic idea to create a second version of my Myomi Republic timeline? FirstStooge (talk) 07:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

This comming Tuesday will be the 1-week I need to wait after PM-ing the original owner of the "Japanese Victory" Page that I&apos;m hoping to be able to adopt. On Tuesday afternoon, I will procede to Stage 2 of the adoption process. I just thought I would let you know in advance so that when I put the Adoption Aplication notice on the page, it does not get edited out

Vexacus 15:02GMT, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

I have left the notice at the top of the page, now all I have to do is wait three days

Vexacus

I have left a note on the talk page. Sorry for the confusion in placing it on the wrong page. I take it the three days has been reset and I now have to wait until Saturday to find out if I can adopt it?

Vexacus (talk) 12:16, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Then I look forward to Saturday and the reset 3-day waiting period has given me the chance to find some pictures I&apos;ll be posting, if I am able to adopt the TLVexacus (talk) 11:35, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

2012: Doomsday
Lordgano can you please delete my 2012:Doomsday Page (or Random Doomsday because SOMEONE moved it without CONSULTING me first.) because I've decided to make another 2012:Doomsday page not based on a modern version of 1983:Doomsday but what the mayans said that the world would end this year (but prob won't).

Thank You - User:Lewody1 11:39 GMT 01/11/2012

In anticipation of being allowed to adopt the "Japanese Victory" page, I was hoping I could ask your advice. I have written a good deal that takes place before the first date on the page, I have also re-written a lot of what has already been posted and I have several pages worth of stuff to take place after the last post. My question is should I re-post it in chunks or in one fo, what do you think?Vexacus (talk) 13:54, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

In chunks it is. And I'm glad to here it is the wiki axcting funky and not my PC (^_^) Vexacus (talk) 09:57, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not copying films
Actually Lordganon. I haven't seen the 2012 Movie but I've heard about it so if my timeline has got something similar with the film then i'm sorry but i'm not copying it - User:Lewody1 10:45 GMT 02/11/12

Adoption Question
If I am indeed allowed to adopt the "Japanese Victory" page, what happens? Is a notice posted on the page lettign people know or do I get told I've adopted it via my talk page?

Vexacus (talk) 20:33, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Strange Occurance
Hey LG, it's me again. Scraw. Now see here, something strange just happened to me. I was using my uncle's Mac, you see, and I just received a notice in the bottom right hand corner of the page I had just edited saying that I had made the Lucky Edit. As I've mentioned in the past, I know these exist, but I never get them. (The notice, that is.) Curious, I clicked at the bottom that notice that said "See what other badges you can earn!" That led me to my userpage.

You may or may not know this, but I was #4 on the wiki. My userpage now tells me that I am number 12 and that I have lost 990 points.

But, my drop-down list shows all my 72 badges. Apparently, 71 badges had added up to 4300 points. 72 adds up to 3590 points.

Now the big question here is, how?

Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 21:32, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

OK. Thanks.

Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 16:12, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Message Left
I have left that message on the talk page and will nowe undo the changes you undid, ok? Vexacus (talk) 15:10, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Text Problem
Can you help me, I need to know the font originally used on the "Japanese Victory" page, but when I copy and past it, it says Helvetica, but when I paste a new section in, it does not match the font originally used

Vexacus (talk) 21:49, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

'''The Anti-Piracy League page is tied to Principia Moderni II. It's my fault, i forgot to put in the proper labeling. Please remove the deletion notice, since it was fixed by Scandinator.AP (talk) 07:13, November 7, 2012 (UTC)'''

??What Font??
Since you said the fonty I have used at the start of the "Japanese Victory" TL looks horrible, what font would you recomend?Vexacus (talk) 10:10, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

More Wiki Problems?
I take it there are more Wiki problems as when I went to check on a badge I am working towards, it now shows the earliest badges I gotVexacus (talk) 11:05, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hello Lordganon. I would like to apologize to you about my behavior a couple months ago. If you recall, I made an article called "Brave New World", which was hastily moved to the Future Wiki and it has now become one of the more successful projects there. Anyways, you contacted me and gave me some info about moving it, and shortly after, I asked a couple questions regarding adding gun articles to the 1983: Doomsday timeline (which I got to say is a marvelous piece of work). In response, you told me that I would not be capable of doing such a thing, as I would be "stepping on the toes of others". My reply to you was less than friendly, and accused you of patronizing me, which was a mistake on my part. I was going through a rough time during the times of those posts and my mood was more... foul than usual. Now that I have explained myself, I would like to say sorry for the behavior that I displayed to you. Hopefully when the time comes, I would like to participate in the 1983: Doomsday project and become a prominent althist writer here, as the entire idea of it is fascinating to me. In the near future, I will contact you or someone else regarding the editorial directives.

Thanks! XtranormalGeek 23:47, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks LG. I do the best as i can. :) Regards Katholico (talk) 03:53, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Adoption Question
I have left a message on the talk page of the user who created the "Japanese Victory at Midway" page, he is tghe same one who created the "Japanese Victory" page whicvh I adopted. If he does not respond withion a week and if no one objects after the three-day waiting period after I have posted my intentions to adopt the page, would I be allowed to remove the page and use it on the "Japanese Victory" page as some of it would fit in very well Vexacus (talk) 12:51, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Barack Obama in Nelson's Death
Hey LG. I was wondering if you could answer a quick question:

Would Barack Obama exist in my ATL: Nelson's Death, should the French own Kenya, and thus Obama's father living in a French Kenya instaed of a British Kenya?

Enclavehunter (talk) 23:33, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Questions Regarding my ATL
Hi, I recently saw that you've labelled my ATL under the categories "Time Travel", "Biased", and "Random".... I was wondering if you could explain to me how this ATL is biased even though I haven't really expanded my timeline yet.... Also, does being included in these categories indicate that this ATL is an unreasonable and faulty ATL? I really want to write a good ATL about the Ming Dynasty during the Chongzhen period, but I couldnt find a good enough POD, please help me!

P.S. Why isn't "Aetas ab Brian" included in the "Time Travel" category? It has 2 people time-travelling after all....

Black Prince of Britannia (talk) 18:03, November 9, 2012 (UTC)Black Prince of Britannia

Perhaps I am being simply annoying and wasting your time, but according to my understandings, in the page "List of PODs", "Aetas ab Brian" clearly states that an Egyptian man fell through time to Ptolemiac Egypt. Also, if you read the descriptions of Carico, you would find that his god-like abilities to create wooden planes, steam engines, and even to go to the extent of adopting Jesus (Jeff Brian, but this is only according to my understandings) could only indicate time-travelling...

Also, if you do have time, I was wondering if you could re-evaluate my ATL after I've finished expanding it.

Thank You! XD

207.6.254.79 03:07, November 11, 2012 (UTC)Black Prince of Britannia

I am really persistent, so for God's sake, please read the following pages...

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperabridgement_(%C3%86tas_ab_Brian)

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Roman_timeline_of_invention_(%C3%86tas_ab_Brian)

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Cruuxius_Tiberius_Carico_(%C3%86tas_ab_Brian)

If that still does not prove my point (I have no intention of antagonizing the author of "Aetas ab Brian" nor anyone, including you because of this. I'm simply trying to make my point.) Then I believe that I need to get examined for reading-disabilities...

Black Prince of Britannia (talk) 23:17, November 11, 2012 (UTC)Black Prince of Britannia

K, it seems that I'm wrong.... But still, how would you explain the inventions and the genius of Carico? Anyways, it still seems to me to be sort of a "wank" but I shall not press this matter anymore.

Thank you for your help though!

Black Prince of Britannia (talk) 22:57, November 12, 2012 (UTC)Black Prince of Britannia

Re:Russian America Far East
Glad you like the new map. Funny that you should mention it, because I was considering the possibilities. I guess it wouldn't be unreasonable for the Soviets to demand more from China. My only questions about would be how much? For instance, Japan made an Inner Mongolia puppet state in the '30s, and it only comprised of about half of modern day Inner Mongolia (also including the territory that was part of Manchuria).

Since we are discussing a Greater Mongolia, what about a Greater Tibet? I don't know what constituted Tibet prior to the modern-day border, but what would you think about the British demanding more? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:06, November 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's why there's two Mongolias? Doesn't surprise me, but interesting to know. I have made an updated map if you are interested.


 * Since I have your attention, I was wondering if I could get your two cents on another idea I have been thinking about for weeks now. I have been seeing this idea being used a lot lately, and it seems plausible for RA as well. During the Russo-Spanish War (which Russia also offered aid to Mexico), the Russians further stress the Spanish out by going after the Philippines (which was also going through anti-Spanish rebellion). After winning the war, Russia would also demand the islands as part of their winnings. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:52, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry for bringing this up on this conversation, but I wanted to get you opinion on something else I've been wanting to do for a while. My sandbox has become more of a directory than a testing ground. I have been considering dividing my sandbox into several separate pages (each related to a specific timeline). I am not sure if this would go against any rules or anything (probably not because there are a lot of pages just for "Mexico"), but it wouldn't hurt to bring it up before I do so. Thank you again. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:30, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sterling Awards 2012
Greetings LG! I have a question related to this/next years Sterling Awards, and when they will start and what the plan is. I'm asking now becuase Mitro is wondering if it will be possible for me to cover them on his History Weekly Update blog once they do get started. I know we were throwing out ideas last year about how to change the awards around, so I was just coming to you to see if you have any definite changes taking place.

If you can give me some heads up so I can cover it/report on it, please let me know so I can plan ahead.

Thanks! Lieut. Tbguy1992: Profile; Talk 16:32, November 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, thanks for the heads up. I'll most likely just list the nominations on the blog when we start the voting, and provide links to said nominations. Lieut. Tbguy1992: Profile; Talk 05:10, November 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppet alert:
Sockpuppet alert:

This IP, 165.138.65.253, is controlling several nations using different names in Axis vs. Allies Revolutions.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:47, November 13, 2012 (UTC)

Lafayette
I was reading about Lafayette and I was wondering what would have happened if he had accepted the Dictatorship of France instead of allowing Louis-Phillipe to become King?

I was thinking that after becoming Dictator he could have wrote a new constitution much like the OTL July Monarchy accept he and his descendants was King.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_du_Motier,_marquis_de_Lafayette#Accession_of_Louis-Philippe

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 00:04, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Adoption Notice
I messaged the creator of the "Japanese Victory at Midway" page a week ago and I have not heard from him, therefore I am letting you know that I have oput up an adoption notice on the talk page for the "Japanese Victory at Midway" TL Vexacus (talk) 23:58, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

How?
How am I violating the rules?Homesun (talk) 14:03, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Please delete
Can you delete all the pages related to North American Democracy except the NAD page itself, I want to start this over and not make it as 'stupid'. Looking back at the pages I see they are totally unrealistic and mostly stupid like "He was Prime Minister and elected president" I was less politically knowing so i want a fresh start. Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:53, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

But leave the North Continential Relations, George Bush and Texan related pages. There is nothing wrong with those ~ Marcus/Michael Villanova 13:57, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actualy delete everything related to NAD, i'm starting a new one so its a fresh start and with different aspects. Marcus/Michael Villanova 21:55, November 22, 2012 (UTC)

THANKS :DDDD!!! Umm my new althistory is New America sorta like the last one but "better" more full. I know you were good with giving capitals. Can you see the map on the New America page and give a list of capitals for each nation? Thanks Marcus/Michael Villanova 02:06, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Congressman Milk
I'm not sure why you decided to revert the edits I did. I moved them to a timeline page at Timeline (Congressman Milk),which was also deleted. Do you care to explain this?


 * Maybe you didn't read what I wrote here. I didn't remove anything. I moved them to another page. Also, the page Congressman Milk says that changes are welcome right on the page you edited. I didn't realize that there were pages that are not edited on that are shared by the community and that they only have one editor. I thought the Alt History was a good idea and was going to add more to it, but if that's not allowed I won't do it. Thanks for letting me know. --Pinkkeith (talk) 22:53, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hello
I thought I would report This to an admin. Make of it what you will. I am withholding judgement.

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk)

Yes. Umm... wow. I noticed it too. David got here first, I guess. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:40, November 27, 2012 (UTC)

2012 Bowl Season College Football Pick'em
Its your favorite time of year again, LG. I always post this on your wall first, btw, since you've included your reasoning for each pick both times I've done it :)

NCAA Division I National Championship (Citrus Bowl)

1 Cuba (13-0) vs. 2 Texas (13-0)

Sugar Bowl

16 Kahokia (10-3) vs. 8 Texas A&M (11-1)

Manhattan Bowl 12 Iowa (10-2) vs. 13 Pittsburgh (10-2)

Rose Bowl

4 Washington (12-1) vs. 7 Ohio State (11-2)

Orange Bowl

13 San Diego (10-2) vs. 6 South Carolina (11-1)

Silver Bowl

18 Huron (9-3) vs. 3 Sequoyah (12-1)

Peach Bowl

14 Alabama (10-3) vs. 19 Virginia (9-4)

Texas Bowl

5 Pacifica (11-1) vs. 10 Massachusetts (10-2)

Chicago Bowl

11 Notre Dame (10-3) vs. 15 Louisiana (10-2)

Paradise Bowl

17 Fresno State (13-0) vs. 9 Peninsula (11-2)

KingSweden (talk) 01:58, December 4, 2012 (UTC)

I am sick of this
LG, I believe I have had enough of this. For the past year now, I continually receive comments discrediting my ideas and hard work. Now you have commented on how two of my ideas will not work, and now I have to remove them and this is upsetting for me. It has gotten to the point that I am now fearful of posting any new ideas on the grounds of getting comments that they are not workable. I do not wish for your help to end, I appreciate all the help I can get and I especially like to have my timelines correct; but now that weeks of hard work I have put into these ideas are now just pieces of trash, it has become a frustration and I am not sure how to take it. I am not sure how me informing you all of this will be of any help, but it is something I have to say. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:29, December 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I really do apologize for my actions. It was uncalled for and I feel rotten for saying those things to a friend like you. I know that you are only trying to help out. But keep in mind that I did spends several weeks reading, contemplating, discussions, debates, and redrafting of my South America idea to the point that I thought it was workable; and all that work was gone in only a few paragraphs which stated that not one flaw, but several flaws. It was very overwhelming to know that I have screwed up again, and have to start from scratch. I was caught up in the moment, and I understand if you are mad at me. If at all possible, let us move forward.


 * As I mentioned above, I was more upset about South America rather than Italy (which was an idea I didn't explore to much beforehand). The overall reasoning for me exploring a divided Italy was because of Germany (and China) being "punished", while Italy (even OTL) was pretty much left alone, the fact that Italy was the closest western nation to willingly become communist, and that with the idea of Germany being purposely divided (meaning Berlin isn't), the Cold War looks rather weak in comparison with OTL. It had nothing to do with monarchies (I have begun to show more fascination with them lately, after all), but that you said a division was unlikely here, and that a communist state wouldn't work either way. So I have lost interest in this idea overall.


 * The South America idea I may bring back in some form or another (maybe as a Peru-Bolivian Dominion state as you suggested), but I believe I need a break and come back on a fresh mind. I have a couple of ideas I would like to look into, primarily General tiu's idea for Japan. But like I said, maybe I need a break, all of this is getting overcomplicated. So again, I do apologize for my actions, and I hope that you can forgive me. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:56, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

I never really considered Asia in that respect; aside from the obvious fact that the USSR and Japan would have nukes facing each other. While I am not too sure (not an expert), the Vietnam War would probably still happen (it began from the leaving French), but maybe there would be large numbers of Japanese fighting in the war.

I am well aware that the Ainu make up a low population, but I added Hokkaido as a "country" for other reasons besides ethnics:


 * Much like Korea and the others, Hokkaido (and the Kurils) were annexed by Japan (not part of the original home islands). Granted, Japan had more time and success in colonizing the region, Hokkaido still has an "otherness" mentality even to this day (not as great as [say] Texas, but enough that this may be looked into upon reformation ATL).


 * Despite being an empire of "countries" (still not sure on a name), Japan would be a unitary state (much like the UK), which would all be "Japanese" by the time I am considering the empire to reform. In short, Japan divided for regional and historic say, not so much ethnics.

But it is still a work in progress, and I have not gotten any response by Tiu to help me along. So one step at a time. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:26, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Kingdom of Quebec (French America)
Whay did you undo my modifications? What does 3,854,085 sq mi km2 mean? What are natinos?

205.151.119.83 13:02, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

Spokane in 1983:DD
How did Spokane survive the nuclear attack on Fairchild AFB? Downtown Spokane (where I work) is less than a ten minute drive from the base, and back in 1983 areas north of the city like Mead or east like Spokane Valley were less built-out from suburbanization (though they did exist). The only plausible explanation I can come up with for this is that Fairchild is at a much higher elevation than the city (which is down along a river valley) and thus the city was partially shielded from the blast, though no doubt still heavily damaged. I know the Spokane junta is canon, but there should probably be a plausible explanation for the city's survival.

KingSweden (talk) 06:38, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds pretty reasonable. I assume then that the nukes fired at Seattle and Tacoma were higher MT than the Spokane one?

KingSweden (talk) 23:52, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

New Apoc:2012 page nominated for deletion
Hey Lordganon, I had just created the page Weather During The Apocalypse (Apocalypse: 2012) (which will likely be renamed and has a hell of a lot of data to be put in) when a user named Cartoon1 nominated the article for deletion. He did not explain why on the talk page. I'm not sure how to proceed as I have no idea if he is a Wikia official or a troll. Could you please help? Thank you, Scandinator (talk) 13:59, December 9, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of page
My page was nominated for deletion and I was wondering if there would be anything I can do to improve it so it doesn't get deleted --ProudAmerican1776 (talk) 18:19, December 9, 2012 (UTC)Proud1776

Question
Hey, I was looking through the Doomsday articles, and noticed that many of the nations such as Japan and Korea, and most of the port-war American nations, were sitting on top of or around sites that were nuked. Is this allowed? If so, could I base my nation around such areas, or provide some details as to how they survived (such as Japan and Israel shooting down many of the missiles)? Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 20:48, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Doomsday advice
Hey LG, I was wondering if I could get your advice on how I should bring up a suggestion in the Doomsday timeline (since the talk page looks quite complicated). I wanted to bring up a proposal I have been meaning to bring to the tables for a long time now, but I would also like to get your two cents on the matter before I go any further.

I do not know if you recall this idea I brought up in the discussions of ' and ', but I have been pondering the idea of the Outer Lands being divided between and a Long Island/Block Island state. I am aware that I will have to bring this up with the respective users who are the admins the articles in question, but I would like to get a second opinion on this issue, and whether (site wise) this could be looked into. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:30, December 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * No need to worry, I completely understand. I need to get my act together as well (haven't been shopping yet). Anyway, I am glad that you approve the idea. However, you got it wrong. What I wanted to do is have Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket join Plymouth, with Long Island and Block Island becoming their own union (in affect, ending the Outer Lands). Not too sure what you would think of this.


 * I plan on informing the user in question in due time. I agree that Arstar would probably not refuse, but the other two I am not too sure of. I came across an old discussion on this same matter from years back, and Brian said he was supportive of this idea. I will ask again to be sure he still feels this way, but I believe this may work. Thank you again. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:27, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

So, another bad idea, eh? Well, it doesn't matter to much. However, why can't this be an issue that was already resolved? Why does it have to be a contemporary process in the timeline? If that is the case, then I honestly see no point in looking into this idea any further, and just keep the things the way they are. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:58, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE: Just wanting to see this possibility. How would around the late '90s sound for Cape Cod peacefully leaving the Outer Lands in favor of a union with Plymouth. This could also correspond nicely with the date that Plymouth becomes a Commonwealth. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 23:36, December 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you again. Also, by "down the toilet," I was referring to my Long Island idea. Was rather interested in me having a Long Island being alone (with Block Island being a bonus), and allow Arstar to have his initial proposal in the process. But after more thinking, I do realize that just having them divide would be a waste of a great idea. They all have too many similarities to just divide, and historically; Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket were part of New York (but not Block Island for some reason). Also, I would believe that as an added bonus, Long Island would develop as the dominant member, especially if Cape Cod leaves.


 * As for a date, I would assume that 2008/9 may work out. I would hope this develops peacefully. I will have to work on the timeline a bit, but I will need to bring this up at the main talk page pretty soon. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you again. Also, I read your comment on the talk page for the OTL. I had no idea that there was an attack on Cape Cod. Aside from affecting the population (among other things), wouldn't this also make a wasteland between them and Plymouth? In short, would a unity movement be possible if this is the case? Also, why did you duplicate my map? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:51, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

So there are different types of attacks? Not too sure I see that. Granted, it could be argued that Otis only received one strike (as opposed to NYC), and that the wind direction at the time (southwest IIRC); but an attack is still an attack. Even a small one seems like it would have cut off Cape Cod and Plymouth for decades (as you stated before), and it appears that Cape Cod would be much smaller because of which.

Also, I have been having second thoughts about giving up Cape Cod, and am actually looking forward to just having it remain in the union. I have also brought this up with Brian, but maybe you know as well. I am just curious, do you guys remember why Plymouth got Provincetown?

So the map was made by the site? I guess that make some sense. However, I have been trying to remove duplicates from the site, and this upsets me (especially since it is a map I made). How long do you intend to have it remain here? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:52, December 20, 2012 (UTC)




 * I guess that makes sense. But given the clusterfuck that thee Soviets gave NYC, you can't blame me for thinking that the attack on Otis would be a bit larger.


 * I made a quick map showing the attacked area. It still feels like that the area west of Barnstable (the town) would be "off limits" for quite a while after DD (which is what I meant by it would be a long while to ignore any type of unification).


 * I figured as much about Provincetown. I just wanted to be sure there was a reason and not that it was an area Astarpool forgot to remove.


 * No need to worry, just wanted to check. I will remove in time. Yes, it is about done (or as done as it can get), and I do appreciate it that you would select it (now I need to get back towards that timeline).


 * Also, you recently reverted some of my edits over a template. Mind if I ask why? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:28, December 21, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much. That simulator site is very interesting. However, which type of bombs were used?

I would like to add that there is no difference between those templates. Secondly, I do not really wish to have a huge template on the page which only states that it is a stub. It all leads to the same category. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:34, December 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the size. That map-site is really cool (can't wait to really have fun with it). However, I think using the Tsar Bomba on Otis would be interesting (lol).


 * No need to worry about it. I just find it funny how confused your reactions were to them.


 * I believe that is all I have on the Outer Lands so far (I plan on making a new map sometime soon). Now I am getting interested in another idea I have been contemplating for the past couple of days. I do warn you that this is a topic that I am passionate about (regardless of it being usable on this timeline), so if this is another case of me being too optimistic (which I really hope I am not), please be gentle about telling me. But given the timeline idea I have, and the interaction of the nations around the Outer Lands, I do believe that is is plausible. I would like to get your opinion on the issue before I go any further.


 * It involves the Shoreham Nuclear Plant on Long Island, and it being used to power Long Island. Aside from the cliche of using nuclear power after Doomsday, I do believe this is usable and workable for this timeline. I would love to get your opinion (though I am not too sure about your stances towards nuclear power). ^^; --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:38, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Now that is quite a site to see. Just off the top of my head, I thought of an interesting timeline idea. The POD is that the world actually ended on December 21, 2012. Imagine the possibilities. XD

I am glad that this idea is workable. Like I said before, I am rather passionate about this plant (I even went there a while back), so I am very happy I can include it. Off topic (somewhat), I came across an alternate history about the Shoreham plant, but it was stupid and meant to be funny.

But interesting that you said the world was becoming more nuclear. Now that might be an interesting article to add to the timeline, how nuclear power has become despite the world being doomed by their big brothers. Again, thank you. I may start the article tomorrow, at which time I will bring it up on the talk page. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 07:16, December 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you again. I guess what I meant about "increased use" is an overstatement, but you explained it pretty well yourself. I had no idea how elaborate nuclear power was in this timeline, and how "rushed" they are (as you said). This would make an interesting article. Also, I will be writing a report about a user who has been ignoring my messages. Just giving you a heads up. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:46, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well all in good time. As for Sunlord, he hasn't been around lately, so maybe he gets the message (*he says before realizing he just jinxed it*). I also have no real idea what he was talking about, either (maybe a mix up?). Either way, just letting you know. Also, I was unaware that categories were not allowed on proposed pages (my bad). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:04, December 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hey LG, how was your holidays? Mine was okay.


 * I have another idea that I would love to get your two cents on (but I will also bring it up on the talk page if needed). In short, I want to expand Long Island to also include Brookhaven (the area in grey). My reasoning for which is for two reasons. First, Brookhaven avoided direct attack on Doomsday, but did suffer the affects of the "ring of fire" on its westernmost border. Second, since you have made mention that Cape Cod would be fine (despite having a direct attack), then adding this area that wasn't attacked shouldn't be an issue.


 * My idea would involve having LI incorporate the town around 2009, after years of cleanup and gradual re-population. What would your take be on this.


 * Also, I came across a typo today. The article Electromagetic Pulse is missing an "N" in the title. Just wanted to tell you. XD --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:56, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. So the expansion and the date seem alright, wonderful. Is this something I have to bring up on the talk page, or can I just go with it? I have a map I have been working on for weeks which includes this expansion. I will just upload it, and I hope I am going with the timeline rules here.

Lol. I thought that was funny too. I wanted to link to it on my Shoreham page, and after ten minutes of searching for the link, it became obvious. Oh well, we're only human.

I also have two more things. I am considering to make a template specifically for the Outer Lands. Would this be something I have to propose before using?

Also, as part of me cleaning up the files here, I came across File:Vexilloid of the Roman Empire.svg, and noticed that you specifically wanted it to remain an older version (and encouraged the uploading of several duplicates). Since this was over a year ago, and that the file had no links when I came across it, I assume that this argument is no longer the case. I have uploaded the current file used on Wikipedia (as well as adding the licensing). If you are still keen on keeping the older version, then I do apologize for getting involved, and I will revert this if needed. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:33, December 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I will add it soon.




 * Glad you aren't mad at me. If you would like, we can add the varied version as a separate file. I was going to bring this up otherwise, but Chris wasn't happy of the recent changes to the coloring Wikipedia did to Russia's flag (though I personally hatted the previous one XD), so he uploaded the old version. We can do the same here if you truly wish.


 * Also, if you don't mind me asking (just curious), why do you care about this detail? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:57, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I understand. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:43, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

DD
I was looking at Anhui and Henan, as I was checking out the list of nuked cities in China, and Henan's capital city of Zhengzhou was the only one in the two states was that hit, and there was only one nation in the area, the Dragon Empire. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 22:22, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll keep looking around then. Still can find any open areas, and I'm still surprised that every tiny little island has been called. I don't even know how that was possible. :/ Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 18:13, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Project Agawin: saving Fire Wiki
I have come across a wiki that is in desperate need of a major clean and reboot. None of the Admins have been active for some time. The wiki is all but dead. I have tried contacting Wika to request full rights as an admin and maybe even adopt it (If that is possible) but have not been answered. Could you provide a contact who will reliably answer?

Thank you,

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 13:34, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Stirlings 2013
Skimming through the Stirlings shows me that we're facing somewhat of a lack of nominations in comparison to last year. Is this something normal or this is somwhat out of order?

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

I did two or three. I haven't looked over the page yet, but my hunch says that you've nominated a couple as well.

I'll see if there's anything or anyone else I could nominate to get the bal rolling.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:14, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Timeline Adoption & Deletion
I would llike to use big portions of this TL:

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Japanese_Victory_at_Midway

in my adopted "Japanese Victory TL". Can you delete this TL:

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Japanese_Victory_at_Midway

As I have copied down what I need from it

Vexacus (talk) 15:17, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone nominate for the Stirling Awards?AP (talk) 05:17, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks alot man. I think I'll check out Spain first. And thanks about that other part too. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 17:02, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I've settled on developing a nation in the Congo, i.e., the areas of both the DR Congo and Republic of the Congo not taken by any canon nations already. That or the Ivory Coast and Ghana. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 00:48, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

User talk:King Charles V
I have replyed to your comment on his talk page.Steam-man (talk) 01:31, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I was eyeing the provinces of and  since I haven't found any articles about them yet. As for Angola and the West African nations, I'll check them out. Thanks again. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 03:43, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

hello
i got a blog i woild like to delite, it's allready been taged to be delited. can you take care of it for me?

Wingman1 05:01, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

A Darker Place
um i need a name for the new world in my tl i cant keep referring to it as the nw. Nk

Hey, here is my entry for DD, Tshuapa. I cut out that piece of land belonging to Isiro, so the claims should not conflict with any of the surrounding nations. Also, given that Katanga and Zaire are both stubs, would be possible (canon-speaking), for me to invade/annex them? Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 02:20, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Possible city-states in central Michigan
Hey LG. I was wondering if there's a possibility of a surviving city-state in central Michigan?

Hello
Well, I'm here! I looked at the DD map and many areas now seem to be occupied or have larger nations. I was wondering if the invasion plan is still on? It seems like the world is right now distracted by things going on in their home territories and things, and the SAC seems to be dormant. So shall we strike? Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:57, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Haha, yeah I'll archive it. In the new year, ok.

I have been adding little things in the UIP page, care to check over them and give me suggessions? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:46, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Katanga, Isiro, Kivu, and Zaire were the only nations in the Congo. :( Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 01:56, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

Really? Well thank you. I'd like to base it in region of the Congo if possible. Thanks. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 18:55, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam (1983: Doomsday)
I've got an idea for Vietnam in Doomsday. What if Chinese refugees establish a Chinese dominated People's Republic of Tonkin in the north, where much of the Vietnamese communists go. This allows the re-democratized Vietnam to focus their attention to the south, and eventually defeat the unpopular PRT. What do you think? Yank 23:44, December 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nunavut (1983:Doomsday)
Is their anything on what the people in Nunavut did? I've tried to join the game before but can't find some open land that would fit into the time line. Marcus/Michael Villanova 15:36, December 24, 2012 (UTC)

Just letting you know
Happy Holidays, LG. I am just giving you another heads up. I am allowing Breizhcatalonia1993 to edit the  page in New Union. He mentioned to me that you were giving him a hard time about this (thought I haven't seen you guys talking recently, so I have no idea what he really means). But anyway, just letting you know. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:14, December 25, 2012 (UTC)

Little Doubt
I want to be sure, so i ask to you. I want nominate this article to Best New Article, which i created in colaboration with KingSweden for his timeline. I can, right? ^_^U Regards! --Katholico (talk) 05:35, December 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much :D Regards! --Katholico (talk) 03:55, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Adolf Schicklgruber?
I've heard Adolf Hitler was called Adolf Schicklgruber for a time. Would you happen to know if and when this happened? I'm plannng a timeline where Hitler is killed in World War One. Thanks in advance!

Doctor Evulz (talk) 18:56, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I must have confused him with his father. Thanks!

Doctor Evulz (talk) 02:54, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Stronger latinoamerica
may i ask why do you classify it as ASB ? Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:50, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

what status would be the one of the nations so that the TL is not asb Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:49, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

LG,  seriously, in which case would the asb not be asb or biased without leaving the entire idea of it, and why is it asb biased Sine dei gloriem (talk) 20:56, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

they aren't randomly independent, the pod is that the viceroy of new granada doesn't withdraw the tax increase and that the neogranadines revolt in similar way to the American during the revolution, the other colonies despite not being directly affected, they get affected as this only increases the small leveled at that moment hate they had due to The spanish preferring spanish more than creoles, thus many revolt aswell, in similar way that the thirteen colonies did, they do have reasons to declare independence as much as the Americans did Sine dei gloriem (talk) 02:46, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I know, but its the one that sparkled the already existant hate, same in my timeline, but well, what should i change to make the timeline not asb biased Sine dei gloriem (talk) 03:05, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

my goal is to keep the latinoamerican nations united  and more stable, outside that i don't have any other major goals currently so, i ask again what should i change to make the TL not biased

is it possible that to make my timeline not asb, only keep them more stable similar to The actual austria, not powerfull but relatively capable of defending themselves also,also if i make a less latinoamerican centered tl would you withdraw the biased label, also i have 5 reason for independence those are the reasons i find that would make possible that Latinoamerica gets independence, would it be plausible Sine dei gloriem (talk) 04:35, January 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Racial tension, Spanish population were treated superior to the Creoles,
 * Tax, in OTL there was an actual revolt against the Tax increase in Nueva granada, Only stopped when the Viceroy withdraw the Increase, which is one of my POD that it didn't happened
 * 1) Some Latinoamerican population had heard about the Ilustration beliefs, and or had been taught on them, these people in the Given situation would start spreading things like equality of man, and info about the Democracy
 * 2) there were already pro independentists like Francisco de Miranda,the leader of my timeline
 * 3) People of the Colonies like in OTL didn't like to respond to External figures, and originally it was intended that Nueva granada to become a Dominion of Spain responding directly to the king

Question
There is an issue in the Principia Moderni II map game that I'd like to get your opinion on. A Muslim megastate known as the Hashemite Caliphate has taken over much of the Muslim world, from Deccan to Algeria; they have also taken over areas with prominent groups of christians like Armenia, Georgia, Egypt, Syria, Ethiopia, etc. One of the mods made those groups leave their homeland(because they were "tired" of living under oppressive Islamic rule) and establish "expatriate kingdoms" in the New World right when all the European nations were colonizing the Americas. The Jews even left Palestine. Would this actually happen? Would Syriac/Coptic/ any other kind of christian just leave their lands for a place they don't even know they'll survive in? Let me know. Thanks.AP (talk) 06:16, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, LG. AP (talk) 06:34, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Star wars ripoff - possible infringment
Hi. Thought I would bring This to your attention. It appears to be 'borrowing heavily' to say the least

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 14:16, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Touhou Project in 1983: Doomsday
Hello.

I was thinking about doing a list of characters and having some short descriptions for each.

Should I make a separate page for that or can I put it on the ZUN page? -Kogasa 2012年12月31日 02:26:00 (JST)

What are the naming protocols? i believe iam following them, please explain 07sameva (talk) 00:28, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Stirlings
When does voting start? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 00:54, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

My apologies, will revert to full name for future articles

the timeline (What Luck!) is not biased, it is based on a confederate gettysburg (a common timeline on here i agree) followed by a sucessful assasination attempt on Lincoln (a real event from August 1864 that very nearly killed him). 07sameva (talk) 11:10, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Imperial Federation idea
How's it going, LG. I had an epiphany recently for 13 Fallen Stars that I would love to get your take on. Since nationalism as we know it doesn't exist, and World War I doesn't happen (at least as OTL), this made me think of how the Empires would evolve here. From what I can make out from this, would be more time and reasoning for the existence of the so-called "." Nationalism would not exist, meaning there would be no "Canadians" or "Australians" (at least on a national sense), and there would be more time to mold the idea into something workable.

I am also considering this idea after rethinking what the original author of this timeline was thinking about by having Canada (for instance) being a kingdom. In retrospect, this may have been what he was actually meaning (and if that be the case, then I would like to look into this possibility further).

I would rather get your two cents on this idea, rather than spend weeks on it to only find out that it is impractical. But from what I can make out on my own, I would say it seems interesting to look into, would you say? Look forward to your response. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:20, January 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am still uncertain as to what "nationalism" would be here, but pretty much what you said is about right. I only meant that "Canadians" would not exist on a "nationalist" level, but more of a regional level (kinda like Californians don't call themselves Californians on a national level).


 * I had to look it up to believe it... but Canada really wanted to be called "Kingdom"? This also shocks me because the original creator also referred to Canada (and all of Spain's claims) as Kingdoms. I took this as a whole, and thought this meant independence, not just a name. Very weird (again... still new to monarchies).


 * So an Imperial Federation could be plausible here, that is nice to hear. I will continue to look into this idea. Also, because this is new to me, how would a British Imperial Federation be structured here. I've heard many interpretations, including it being (more or less) the Commonwealth of Nations with and EU flair. However, I am more interested in an actual federation, with the countries of the UK, provinces of "Canada", states of Australia, and so on, as equal members of a federation that would have a strong parliament and a King/Queen figurehead (i.e., OTL UK but larger and is a federation). I know the issue of India and it's potential power in such a union, but what I have in mind (at least from the start) would be a whites-only state (more or less). Would this be right? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:20, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

qwerty
may i know which precise elements are considered biased? my political views are liberal-left, so i tried to balance out successful Stevenson-JFK-RFK presidencies with successful Bush Sr - Dole - Rodham (Hillary doesnt meet bill, holds her parents conservetive views) presidencies. 07sameva (talk) 11:57, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

Trance in 1983: Doomsday
Hello again.

I was thinking of creating an article for in 1983: Doomsday and, I'm wondering if he and his family could have escaped  and/or  somehow, or they would be doomed as they had no place to go.

If not, I'm wondering if he could still become the DJ and would produce Trance music. -Kogasa 2013年1月05日 06:24:42 (JST)

please may i know how "what luck!" is biased, 07sameva (talk) 01:01, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

how is it biased? please give examples!07sameva (talk) 10:21, January 5, 2013 (UTC)

Yet another question
Hello, LG. Scraw and I have been thinking of new map game ideas to create a game with concepts that haven't been overused(IE World Wars 1 and 2, the Cold War, etc). For one of my ideas, I'm thinking of beginning it at the outbreak of the War of Spanish Succession. Is there any plausible way the French-Spanish coalition could have won the war?AP (talk) 08:35, January 6, 2013 (UTC)

have rewritten parts of "what luck!", feel it is successfully neutral now. should be declassified as biased, 07sameva (talk) 00:40, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems to be the best game idea we have so we might just do it, despite an ASB tag. Several ASB games have made it, I hope this one can work out. Thanks again.AP (talk) 00:58, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

have decided to rewrite the actual POD.

Union troops dont find the lost order, Lee lures McClellan to gettysburg(meaning a battle of gettysburg in october 1862), where he defeats him in a similar fashion that Lee was defeated by Meade in OTL. Lincoln lacks the great victory he needs to issue the emancipation proclaimation, consequently britain and france remain considerably pro confederate. Lee is reluctant to enter Washington, British intervene for peace, on January 1 1863 rather than validating the emancipation proclaimarion Lincoln announces a peace with the csa. Lincoln is now unpopular, hated by the peace democrats for "starting the war" and hated by war democrats and some republicans for not being an affective war leader. In August 1864 he is assasinated by a disgruntled soldier (as he very nearly was in OTL 1864).

This is not biased since it is based on factual events and inspired by a alt hist essay "If the lost order hadnt been lost", if you should see fit to repeatedly add "what luck!" to the biased catagory then can you please leave a reason on the talk page, i really want to make this timeline detailed and want to get it right, 07sameva (talk) 09:15, January 7, 2013 (UTC)

Look Lordganon, ive asked you this several times now, if your going to say my timeline's bias then please say how! How else am i meant to improve it! I admit all of my timlines so far have been simplistic and quite bad so i wanted to make a decent start and do a really good,detailed and well written timeline! I want to contribute yet you keep saying what i write is trash but you dont say how! really lordganon, please just say which parts are bias and dont just say the whole thing is! I JUST WANT TO WRITE A DECENT TL!07sameva (talk) 17:46, January 9, 2013 (UTC)

Intelligent plants question
Hello LordGannon,

Event though I stated that I would understand why my timeline could be considered ASB, I want to now why it is put into this category. The enviromental changes stated in the timeline are fact, and the science behind the evolutionary tansition of the plants is plausible. If I need to add any more links providing more evidence for the temperature changes, or more links explaining how the evolution of the plants is plausible, please just say so. This is not a harsh message, but I just want to now how I could make my timeline better.

Regards TheAustralianAtheist (talk) 08:53, January 10, 2013 (UTC)

the whole thing is not biased at all!

The POD is taken from an essay (that i have already named), and the various butterfly effects are entirely plausible (its actually unusual that the Confederates allowed their battle plans into union hands, had lee had the element of surprise then he would have almost certainly won a victory over mcclellan), please challenge anyone of my fictional presidencies (CS and US) they are all plausible!

How is "the whole thing" bias though! i generally cant see how you could think that to be the case! prehaps you could introduce a third party into the debate to read the timeline and give me their opinion! but please tell me HOW it is bias!07sameva (talk) 17:08, January 10, 2013 (UTC)

Picture Question
If the picture of the severed head on the barbed wire was taken down, I take it anything like a lynched body would also be taken down? I ask this as IO have an idea for a new section on my TL. If the lynched body picture is not allowed, I can change the section to remove itVexacus (talk) 20:02, January 10, 2013 (UTC)

Stop removing my categories
I've noticed you've removed categories on two of my recently created pages. Unless you have a logical reason behind doing so I kindly request you stop doing this.Central Victory Creator 10:29, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

After reading through most of the other articles in the "ASB-Bias" catagory, i cant see how you could class "basically the whole" of my timleine bias! the greater norweigan reich, Japanese victory and reign of roosevelt are completly biased, and the latter TL isnt even classed as bias! I wouldnt mind if you just thought a couple elements of my timeline were a bit far fetched (RFK and Palin being presidents for example) but saying the whole of my TL is bias is quite frankly weird. My TL doesnt belong in the same catagory as these "wanks", and i cant see how you could think that to be the case. 07sameva (talk) 16:40, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Otl Presidents in 13 Fallen Stars
This is quite a surprise to see. Had no idea that you were an expert on ancestry. XD

Your suggestions are about the same direction I was heading. I also like your suggestion for Hoover being Pennsylvanian, especially because both PA and DE voted to reelect Hoover in 1932 (he would sure have a good home here). The only thing I can't put my finger on is Obama. I know his mother is from the Midwest, while his father was from Kenya (just read that his parent met in a Russian class... *Twilight Zone Theme*). Not impossible, just very close. Now this is just making me think of how Virginia and Carolina would (if at all) abolish slavery here (probably much later in the 19th century). Other than that, than you again.

Also, before I forget, I commented you about my Imperial Federation idea and never got a reply. I am sure you were busy (you weren't on for a while), and a flood of comments came on you talk page, so I can understand. Forgive me for digging into this. ^^; --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:58, January 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well thank you again. Also (for the record), I was slowly looking into everybody. I did manage to label Nixon and the Bushs.


 * Virginia and Carolina sound about the way I had in mind. Also, without the French Revolution and the Spanish colonies leaving early in the century, wouldn't slavery be more widespread for a good-half of the 19th century (I know Haiti's slaves revolted, and Mexico [at least] declared the abolition of slavery upon independence).


 * Glad you found my Virginia idea amusing. But what I didn't expect was you suggesting it would be more logical to do the opposite. I didn't realize abolitionism would be strong enough to make a pro-slavery revolt in VA. But again, should have realized this when it was the Atlantic coast which benefited from slavery (it not being too usable in the mountainous west is one of the reasons WV left). I also came across the odd fact that VA and KY didn't vote for the same candidate in 1860 as the rest of the south. But either way, you honestly think this is workable?


 * I understand, I get the same way.


 * So more or less like the EU (but stronger). This kinda reminds me of the (a united entity between the Netherlands and her colonies which remained). My only question would involve the counties of the UK. While Ireland was most likely to become its own dominion (or independent), what about the others? Would a federation evolve from here?


 * Also, I have an idea for a new British colony for this timeline. I believe that with no French Revolution, and thereby making the Latin American Revolutions not be successful in the early part of the century; this would make Patagonia an open target for the British (or the French). I believe Spain would focus more on the Viceroyalties then they would with this region (especially after barely keeping them), that the British could gradually move in (there was some interest I believe [the Falklands are a giveaway]). This would be different from OTL, in which Chile and Argentina (Chile more so) had early interest in Patagonia. I would love to get your two cents on this (probably a stupid idea). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:37, January 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "a touch more power internationally for each member"?


 * Glad the Patagonia idea is workable. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:42, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I can probably see this happening. However, I still believe that as time progresses and technology gets better, this federation would gradually become more and more of a single nation (just what I see).

Also, I thought about something a few days ago, and I wanted to get your opinion. If you remember my original idea of having this be a completely single nation with the subdivisions being the states (not the actual ones being them), I believe I may have found a variable that (at the least) may alter the borders of this federation over time.

Lets compare Australia and New Zealand. Prior to 1900, these two were actually 7 separate colonies (called the "Australian Colonies"). The move towards federation would be achieved, but with New Zealand being able to go its own way (primarily because of their PM at the time). Assuming this also happens ATL, then I foresee a potential conflict of interest. With a federal parliament being the supreme power of this larger federation, the Australian states would be subordinate to an Australian federation, while New Zealand has direct representation. And note, prior to 1901, New Zealand was just another Australian colony, with little difference from New South Wales or Victoria; aside from distance and leadership (and that it was only after becoming a Dominion that a distinct Kiwi culture became).

With this, I could potentially see some of Australia's states wanting to also gain more representation in such a parliament; with Western Australia being the prime target.

I also compare this to the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles. When it first established, this Kingdom comprised of the European Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles (Suriname was also a founding member, but left later on). Now, the NA has divided into new countries. I know that comparing Australia and the Caribbean are not the same things, but given the larger distances and growing move towards more unity, I would think that this would be an outcome over time. I can also compare this to the Soviet Union in New Union, as more republics were established over time.

Overtly, I don't see this happening completely, as many regions would benefit from being united. However, some parts may attempt to do so; including Western Australia, Ireland (maybe, I did receive your thoughts on this), and the many Caribbean states (much like OTL). Or as new members join, the idea of creating new federations would be undesirable (such as in Africa).

Or like everything else, I am not looking at this the right way, and I am only ranting nonsense again.

Also, because I feel we may be in different times, when do you believe that such a federation would be enacted? I personally believe no earlier than 1900, and no later than 1940.

This is just another question that I have been thinking of for a while now. I am sure that this is just another pointless idea, but hear me out. Prior to 1900, Spanish Guinea (which would be sold to NN around 1883) claimed a lot more territory then what is currently Equatorial Guinea (see here), and it was in the that the current border was agreed.

Anyway, I was looking into how it could have turned out bigger (because I'm being greedy), and I may have found a potential way (thought probably unlikely). Let's say that with Germany non-existent (and doubting Prussia takes its place), this may leave the French (or the British) to claim Cameroon. Combined with potentially good relations with France, the French may be willing to give more territory to NN in 1900. Just wanted to get your take on this. I was also thinking, because of its small size, location, and timing; what of Togoland being NN's? I'm sure this is stupid, so forgive me if I am. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:17, January 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "more unified overall"? This is further getting confusing, so they would be independent, but more unified?


 * I personally doubt it should happen any time prior to 1900. There was still support prior to WWI, and without the war (or the US), I believe it would continue to last here.


 * But if it does end up with WA not joining initially, I would personally show more interest towards it just remaining separate (I have been wanting to incorporate an independent WA in one of my timelines for a while now).


 * Like I said, pointless. So forget I made mention of it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:01, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

So are you telling me that Australia would virtually become a de facto unitary state?

I suppose it could for earlier. However, Canada (Ontario and Quebec) would not exist within the British Empire at the time. I know you told me that you just use it the name for simplicity, but I personally don't know how supportive the Maritime Provinces or the Metis/Colonists would support such a thing. Also, what do you mean by "this was a position advocated by a minority prior to Confederation otl"? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:35, January 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I understand. Australia would (more or less) devolve into a "United Province of Canada," being one entity, but with the original colonies having some say. I think I got that right, and this would be more the reason that I believe Western Australia would not be included (especially since WA was not originally part of NSW, with the remaining states [aside from Tasmania IIRC] were once part of it). I can't speak for how France works (aside from me knowing that it is a unitary state that includes parts of Africa and South America), but I believe I can get the gist of it.


 * I didn't mean to question you choice of wording (i.e., Canada), but was merely questioning whether or not the Maritime Provinces, Newfoundland, and the rest of British North America would go along with such a union (especially since I was under the impression that it was the Two Canadas OTL which held the shots).


 * I also came across a historic "typo" that the original author made. While Nova Scotia did once hold all of the Maritime Provinces at one point, New Brunswick (the first province to split off) was created in 1784 (prior to the established POD of 1788). So in reality, it would probably become an Australia-like situation if anything here (they unite into a bigger province, which ironically some in contemporary Canada want to have happen). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:16, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Treaty of Friendship, Commerce, and Navigation
I was wondering if you could remove the ASB-Biased as I've tried to remove the bias and I'm starting the timeline over so its not biased.

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 03:45, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Hello, just popping in
Hello, LordGanon, This is Ming777 from Ah.com

If you hav any concerns about my TL, please message me. I want to avoid any problems with the folks here who have made an extraordinary collaborative AH world.

Mikelima777 (talk) 00:30, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Skywalker Ranch
Do you think a very small survivor state in Skywalker Ranch would be plausible? I looked on the map of strikes in North America and then I checked the CarlosLabs simulator. As long as the wind isn't blowing fallout right in the direction of the Ranch, it has a chance of survival. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 17:15, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Edwards AFB is nowhere near Skywalker Ranch, though fallout from Mare Island might hit it, depending on the wind direction. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 13:37, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Used this for reference. http://www.wunderground.com/history/The wind from San Francisco is blowing 11 mph in a WNW direction, which, from what I can tell, is missing Skywalker Ranch. The wind in Novato, where Mare Island is, was completely still. I'm going to assume the prevailing wind patterns spread the fallout to the northeast, away from Skywalker Ranch. Further evidence exists in this map on the 1983DD talk page http://www.ki4u.com/nuclearsurvival/states/aacont2.jpg. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:42, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Not sure where you're getting the location of Edwards AFB. Every source I've found points it somewhere near LA, not San Francisco.

Yes, but the closest weather station to Novato (where Mare Island is) reports still winds.

The prevailing winds will take the fallout northeast, not to the west. Multiple sources tell that, as a rule of thumb, always assume the fallout will follow these patterns. These wind currents go over the Rockies. The major influence of the fallout will not be winds blowing from the Rockies. It would be the prevailing wind currents that take the fallout east. Also, the map we use was created by a reputable source. If you don't see it as accurate, why are we using it? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 16:02, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

ASB: Biased ?
I appreciate the fact that you are convinced my timeline is biased, i disagree and will undo any further changes you make to my timeline. I would appreciate it if you wouldnt remove my pages from the American Civil War timeline also, i dont know why your doing that. I wouldnt waste your time adding my pages to the biased catagory, i will undo any changes you make every day i come on here. 07sameva (talk) 15:50, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

It would help if you explained to Sam WHY you think it is "ASB: Biased." So far, the only thing wrong with this is the fact that a second POD is introduced which does not seem to be connected with the first. The fact that these points are considered "luck" does not, in my opinion, make them "alien space bat" material. The interception of Lee's plans are in general considered pivotal in the course of the war. An early assasination of Lincoln would have indeed altered the election in favor of the Democrats. Not enough of the time line has been written to determine much as to the outcome.

Every writer comes in with some bias, but the cateogoization system should not be used as an editorial comment. If the author of a time line does not wish to be included amongst the list of "ASB" articles, there is nothing that requires that such an article be so marked. SouthWriter (talk) 18:21, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

The marker
Why is the marker impossible? Doesn't the rule says you can use a short form? Laptop_Zombie 13:28, January 17, 2013 (UTC)

Britain's World
Hey LG. I was wondering if you could give me your opinion or idea for the first Prime Minister of the United Provinces of America. I currently have Patrick Henry, but who would you suggest to be the first Prime Minister?

Regards - Enclavehunter (talk) 04:53, January 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well...
We are 20 days into the new year, so can planning for the attack into the northeast commence? Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:43, January 20, 2013 (UTC)

May I also say thank you for fixing up my sentences on the UIP page, although you did remove my organic growing para! ;)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:46, January 20, 2013 (UTC)



Well, here we go.

Stage one: A fast paced infantry and mobilised unit attack into the little rouge states in W. Bengal. Should be overrun within a week. Objectives will be to seal multiple routes to Sikkim for military use. Secondary objective to crush resistance in the area.

Anything to add? I think it is a solid and stable beginning.

Stage two: After consolidating gains and building up troops in Sikkim and airlifting tanks and men into Arunanchal Pradesh over a week, we will begin the second stage. This will begin with an armoured attack into Bodoland and then Acikland to gain the attention of the other states. This is the clever part - the main attack is actually launched by Arunanchal Pradesh (the build-up troops could be sent through former China), catching Assam off-guard (who will be assembling their military to the west). Then another attack will be launched from the Pradesh, this time catching the Assamese on their flank and closing up and encircling Bololandese troops.

This could take anywhere from 2 weeks to two months. Thoughts? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:23, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I also have two more maps readied. The two maps are about different topics. Here is one as to how the region would look after all these wars:

And here (I found a superior quality base map, great if you would like to edit it), is what the attacks would be like. The red blocks are meant to symbolise enemy build-up. The goled arrows are UIP attacks and the numbers are meant to show chronologial order (pretty chuffed with that map tbh).

So what do you think? Are we a go for Stage three? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:40, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, completely forgot to mention, throughout Stage two, the UIP will use its airforce, and get a chance to test out its new aircraft (all of the new aircraft will survive, but I think a few Mig-21s being downed would be appropriate). They would pummel many artillary positions opposing the advance. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:43, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I see your point about stage one. New time allocated is 3 days. What I meant for going into China was the helicopters, the could have flown over former Chinese airspace and noting would have happened. I'm sure that even the Tibetians cannot do anything about that.

Hmmm, I always did think that the UIP was short on tanks, and you proved me right. Yet I think whatever they have, should be used whereever they can (even if its only a little area, it will give the UIP a bit of an advantage). How long do you think will the campaign last anyway (stage two).

I have got a plan for an excuse. Lets say that an important military (or civilian) position was bombed on the 25th - the place where the bombing would happen would be preparing for Republic Day. Then, somehow, we find out the evidence leads to the governments in the east (this info could be planted), and on the 26th - Republic Day - war is declared.

Thoughts? Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:56, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, well there goes the troop transport over Tibet! Same with the tank options, looks like using them in a supporting role would be the only wise option. Hmm, the idea is good, best I could come up with! Its seems like the pilot rescue-op it is.

I had a feeling Tula Nada would be targeted too. Yet its problem might be that Tamil Nadu might get involved in the act too, which would be bad for everyone!

So... :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:44, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu probably won't intervene. Even if Andhra Pradesh and the other southern states came into play, they'd probably be crushed.

Unless Pakistan came into the picture?

This could, on the other hand, be an opening for an Indian Coalition, like I suggested.

The Royal Guns (It's a PUN, people. I'm not saying I'm royal. And the name is GUNS.) (talk) 00:37, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

I see your point. Should we go ahead with it today itself? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:34, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Indian Coalition resulting from this? Please? The Royal Guns (talk) 02:59, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should try and get more military deals done with the Soviets. Say like repair and update some of the UIP's carriers (they'll only have something like 3) and in exchange they will get some extra much-needed manpower.

I also thing we should talk about how many roads have now been built nicely (we wrote a post about this a year or two back) and how power-grid lines are being re-laid to help increase efficiency. All thiese points are minor though. Could we say something about the construction boom beggining in Delhi and Mumbai? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:32, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

My edits
Why were my edits on British-Africana changed?

EoGuy (talk) 02:41, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I give up.
I give up.

EoGuy (talk) 15:33, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Hey LG wats up, i just wanted to know who is the owner/editor of Atlantic Iron Curtain, i want to dicuss some stuff with him. Thanks man...

Alterman09 20:34, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Virginia and Liberia
Greetings. I have made a third revision on my Virginia Civil War idea, and I hope it is about right. I also added a few programs that Lee could use in order to gradually accomplish this. However, I am not an expert on Lee or what could be done, so forgive me if it sound like BS.

I also wanted to check out something before I go too far. I made mention about Liberia becoming a protectorate in my second draft, yet you made no mention on it. This either means you missed it, or you saw no problem with it. While I would like to see Liberia become more closer to any of the American states ATL, I am still new on this. So I would love to get your two cents on this, because I do have some interesting ideas in mind for Liberia. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:06, January 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear that I am making sense. While I have no doubt that Lincoln may support Lee ATL, but would be the chances of him suffering the same fate as OTL (i.e., being assassinated)?


 * I am still working out a timetable for this war, so now I will make it shorter (ending around 1862-63?). Also, I had no intention of the British supporting the rebellion, but that the rebels would seek their assistance during the war (as was OTL's CSA), and just like OTL, the Brits would ignore (more so than OTL). But details, still working on it.


 * You honestly believe Liberia would have been a protectorate earlier? From what I read from OTL, it appears that it was just a series of settlements up until the formation of an independent Liberia. My guess is that this would be the same, and I could see some type of international cooperation on this matter (since Maryland had some say there OTL), but with an (obvious) Virginian lead.


 * But irregardless of what Liberia may differ, I agree that Lee would probably formalize such protection during his administration. I have other ideas for Liberia, but all in due time. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 06:24, January 25, 2013 (UTC)

Congrats.... Me?


Leaving this here so I remember. Lordganon (talk) 11:12, January 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much, and also congratulations for you!! :D --Katholico (talk) 20:02, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * ^What Kath said. :) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 20:04, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

My Edits
It's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it.

I'm like the English professor in the Men's Room:

I don't write on the walls. I just correct the spelling and grammar.

EoGuy (talk) 15:57, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

83DD: India and China
Imp and I had an idea to revive the old Indian Coalition plan.

Goes as follows:

As the UIP is raining down hellfire upon the heads of the breakaway states, a regiment on the Raya- UIP hears rumors that Raya will be next. What emerges here is a massive firefight between the two sides on the scale of the Chola incident. The Rayans heavily lose, of course, but UIP top brass pulls back the UIP troops. They are not willing to risk a total SAC stop of aid. That said, this scares the stuffing out of Raya, who flee to TN for support, fearing that they'll be the next Tula. TN suggests the IC idea to AP and Raya, a military alliance, certainly provoked. SAC sees the UIP as the aggressor, and cuts down on aid to the UIP, sending it instead to the newly formed IC. Tensions go on between the two nations, as the UIP gains in the East. Then, when India is left between the IC, Pakistan and the UIP... well...

Oh, and as for China, I was wondering if a small, exceptionally major war emerges here. After the NPRC becomes official. Why isn't it canon yet, by the way? The Royal Guns (talk) 19:20, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, I have an idea. Since Bhutan is an ally of the UIP and has allowed it before, we can send a large amount of forces into Arunanchal Pradesh through the country. In exchange we can offer them better trading or something. What do you think? Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:13, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, yes, but the troops might have heard rumors that such an attack would happen. They behave boisterously, the Rayans take offense at that, there's a gunfight, and Raya is now terrified that the UIP will take exception to this. With their last card- SAC aid-played, they need to sneak in an ace, and the IC is just what is needed.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:02, January 29, 2013 (UTC)



Ah, ok then - no problem. We will proceed as planned. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:11, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

BTW, would this map be ok to show the progress made by the nations in expanding in South Africa?

What do you think? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:30, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Lesotho might expand too? After all, after New Britain they're the most powerful state in South Africa. And they're not really going to be friendly with the OFS.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:32, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

So it is too much for the states, ah. Well I think Waterboersland couldn't expand much. Orange could, but would they? Same with the Azanian League, would they? I just want to know to make a new map :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:55, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I have made the new map and updated it? Ok now, or do some areas need to be reduced? :D

Holy Roman Empire?
I got this off of alternatehistory.com:



"''PoD is the survival of both Frederick I Barbarossa and his son Henry VI Hohenstaufen to the completion of the Third Crusade and a successful long reign respectively. This creates a strong basis for the gradual centralization of the HRE and sees it turned into a hereditary monarchy at the very end of the 12nd century. Their talented scion Frederick II is educated to complete the basic job of empire-building, which he does over his own decades-long equally successful reign. Some intermittent civil wars in Germany and Italy see the resistance of particularist nobles and city-states crushed and gradually snuffed out, and the the decisive defeat of the theocratic Papacy. Another long reign by his son Conrad IV, in a dynasty notable for the longevity of its talented rulers, sees the Western Roman/Carolingian Empire definitely being reborn in the eyes of its subjects as a centralized monarchy spanning Germany, Italy, Austria, Bohemia-Moravia, the Low Countries, Burgundy, Switzerland, Slovenia, and Dalmatia, its armies swelled by the manpower of Germany and Italy and its coffers filled by the taxation flowing from the trade centers of Flanders, northern Germany, Franconia and Palatinate, Bohemia, northern Italy, and Sicily. A couple of powerful new monarchical states, however, arise in Western Europe and an ancient one is reborn in the East that would question the imperial primacy of the HRE.'' Butterflies arising from this change:

-The national unification of France is wrecked, and the fortunes of its neighbor states boosted, when the HRE interferes in the struggles between the Kings of France and the Angevin Empire on one side, and Aragon, France, and the Counts of Tolouse, on the other side. This results in the Plantagenet dynasty successfully uniting England and their feudal possessions and conquests in northern and western France into a unitary state. The Angevin Empire is also able to affirm its supremacy over Ireland and a Scotland that lacks strong backers on the other side of the English Channel.

-Aragon, not the Capetingian French monarchy, annexes Languedoc and Provence during the confused mess of suppressing the Cathar heresy. Aragon is able to capitalize this added power into gradually uniting the other Iberian Christian states under its control during the successful Reconquista, and to seize Corsica and Sardinia. Sicily and southern Italy, however, remain wholly outside its grasp, due to the strong grip of the HRE on Italy.

-The kingdom of France is shrunken down to an unhappy, landlocked buffer state (and occasional recurrent battlefield) between the imperial behemoths of the HRE, the Angevins, and Iberia. In the 14th century, it suffers a dynastic crisis, and after an inconclusive war between the three great powers at its borders, it is eventually partitioned between the Angevins and the HRE. Iberia swaps its share with Britain in exchange for southern Aquitaine. -The kingdoms of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden are pushed into forming a real union (the so-called Kalmar Union) for mutual protection from their powerful neighbors.

-The strength of Britain, Iberia, and the HRE leads to a successful new round of Crusades, to a revitalization of the Byzantine Empire once the Islamic pressure is lifted off its back, and to an expansion of the Reconquista in North Africa. As a result, Iberia conquers North Africa. The HRE seizes Eygpt and Nubia. The Byzantine Empire recovers full control of Anatolia, Greece, Macedonia, and Bulgaria, and is later able to conquer the Levant, Armenia, and Mesopotamia. Serbia and Wallachia-Moldavia become vassal states of the Byzantine Empire.

-The strength of the HRE makes its expansion in Eastern Europe highly successful: besides the OTL achievements, Greater Poland, Masovia, Prussia, and western Hungary are assimilated and annexed to the HRE. The rest of Poland and Hungary are turned into vassal states of the HRE (Poland getting reunified in the process) and opened up for gradual assimilation by the Empire.

- Mongol invasion of Europe does not really reach further than Poland and Hungary, and the Tartar onslaught mostly ravages the Middle East for a while, further weakening Islamic states against the Crusader-Byzantine assault. After the Mongol Empire breaks apart, support by the HRE and the Byzantines allows Muscowy to swiftly oust the Golden Horde and build an empire in European Russia, which later expands to northern Caucasus, western Siberia, and most of Kazakhstan. By a parallel process, a Christianized Prussian tribe (TTL Lithuania equivalent) is able to expand and create a state spanning the Baltic lands, White Russia, Ukraine, and the former Khanate of Crimea.

-The Papacy never really recovers from the crushing defeat it suffers in its power struggles with the HRE and the Angevin Empire, and its ill-starred alliance with France. Britain, Iberia, and the HRE keep fighting to assert their control over the Papal Curia, stalemating each other, but further wrecking Papal power in the process for good. The Holy See gets wholly expelled from Italy, and eventually becomes an ineffectual ceremonial shadow of itself and a puppet of Iberia, with an alternating residence in Avignon and Santiago de Compostela, mostly used by the Iberian kings as a minor propaganda prop for the Reconquista. The Western monarchies eventually turn to propping up the power of the national episcopates and keeping a tight leash over them, in order to affirm secular control over their respective national clergy. Latin Church becomes quite decentralized, with the clergy of each nation being governed by the local episcopates, subordinate to the secular governments. The Ecumenic Council once again becomes the only authoritative body for the whole Church. This allows an uneasy reconciliation between the Latin and Greek Churches, although a sizable deal of distrust lingers. The success of the Crusades, and the rebirth of the Byzantine Empire, has however narrowed the distance between West and East somewhat.

-It is currently CE 1500. Although Europe spent a remarkable degree of time ad effort recovering from the Black Death, as well as from the wars that redrew its map, it seems to have regained some degree of stability, under the hegemony of the great monarchies of the HRE, Britain, Iberia, and the Byzantine Empire in an uneasy equilibrium. Wealth is filling the coffers of the kings and emperors, from improved control of the trade routes with the East and the political stability of the centralized monarchies dispelling feudal chaos, which fosters the growth of the urban trading elites. The lore plundered from the conquest of the Middle East and improved cultural exchange with Asia are fueling a huge humanistic Renaissance of cultural, scientific, philosophical, literary, and technological knowledge, with a mix of classical Greco-Roman achievements rediscovered, wholly new European ones developed, and a spread of ideas and techniques from India and China.

Despite somewhat improved access to the trade routes with Asia, the surviving Islamic states still remain a substantial obstacle, the European elites apparently share an endless appetite for the goods of the East, and trade competition between the great powers is raging. All of that all drives the search for new and better trade routes with Asia, which is made possible by advances in European naval technology providing truly Ocean-worthy ships for long travels. Intrepid explorers have now circumnavigated Africa and found a route to India and China, while others have brought back amazing news of a new landmass to the west of immense size and wealth."

What do you think?

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 22:08, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Which flag?
So Sabah has used three flags in its history as a state of Malaysia. I'm not really interested in the first one, as it was adopted from 1963 to 1981, I think. My problem is that the second flag used by Sabah, which was used from 1982 to 1988, looks like the flag of the Philippines, which annexed the state sometime in the 1983:DD universe. I don't know if I should use that flag for the Sabah Autonomous Region, or if I should use the current flag. What do you think, LG?

Godfrey Raphael (talk) 23:38, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, well. Thanks for your help! Godfrey Raphael (talk) 13:23, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Timeline Talking
A jolly guten tag to you, LG.

I now take the liberty of asking you yet another question about my timeline. This question regards the discovery of the New World.

So, I have finally decided on Portugal discover the New World around the same time as OTL, with Columbus and all, but my question to you is could it happen earlier (ex: 1400 - 1470) if it happened a different way?

                 ♒   "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  03:36, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

OK then, that is a sufficient answer. However, I am guessing it would be possible with a POD further back into time?

Also, could you take a look at this page and provide some feedback? Many thanks.

                 ♒   "Fear the power    of the Dark Side of the Force."  00:57, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

HRE
What could've been done to centralise the HRE? I was thinking a few things:

The Thirty Year's War is won by the Catholics and the Protestant Princes are replaced by subservient Catholic Princes and over awhile the Emperors could have slowly brought the other Princes into line and centralizing the state and eventually making it hereditary and unified.

OR

Louis the Pious establishes his eldest son, Lothair, as the sole ruler of the Carolingian Empire while his other two sons are executed by Lothair when he comes to power, causing a Civil War that he eventualy wins establishing himself as the sole Emperor and creating the custom of the inheiritance going to the eldest son. Eventually the Carolingian Empire whould be crowned the Holy Roman Empire by the Pope.

OR

Charles V grants his entire realm to Phillip II, who with the total recourses of the entire Habsburg Empire could crush the Protestants and bring about #1.

(As a secondary POD Phillip and Mary could have a son, uniting England and Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, which is an entirely other story but could still work in here.)

Bobalugee1940 (talk) 22:05, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

TATM- Russia
Hey, LG! I had a few questions for you about my TL, about Russia. Thanks!
 * 1) Would the Mongols have arisen if Genghis Khan was not born? (which he would not be)
 * 2) Assuming  no to the previous question, could Kiev become the center of Ruscia again, to be later overthrown by Muscovy?
 * 3) Provided yes to the previous question, Would Ruscia splinter, or would power just shift from Kiev to Muscovy?

The Royal Guns (talk) 01:16, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, ok, I expected 1 and 3. Is there anmy way in which Kiev would retain power? Or perhaps some city to the West? Tver, Rostov?

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:42, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

So, would something like this be plausible?

Russia is invaded by the Mongols, but unlike OTL, after the initial conquerings of the first leaders (name?), unlike OTL, the Empire effectively shatters, and Russia rebels away around 1250, 1300. Kiev and all is sacked like OTL, and thus completely declines and collapses.

A few centuries later, around 1450, Russia (Ruscia) is basically united under a few states, like Lithuania (including Minsk), Kiev, Muscovy, Novgorod, etc. Of these, Muscovy and Lithuania are by far the strongest and end up conquering all the others by 1500. Then, as war develops between them, Lithuania wins, and Muscovy is heavily defeated. In order to incorporate Muscovy into Ruscia peacefully, the daughter of the Grand Prince of Lithuania is married to the son of the Grand Duke of Muscovy, and the capital of the new state is shifted to Minsk.

The next few centuries pass peacefully, with Minsk growing stronger in Ruscia, and Ruscia growing stronger in general, incorporating much of Siberia, annexing Moldavia, so on. However, in the 1650s to 1710s, Ruscia gets enveloped into a series of wars with the UK and Brandenburg (the UK being, effectively, England, Scotland, Ireland, and the Low Countries). These wars devastate Ruscia, and overall, they lose heavily. Soon after, when it looks like the Tsar is going to push Ruscia into yet another war, several of the Eastern states rebel, especially Muscovy and Novgorod. The Tsardom is split, and several of the rebels are allowed to leave, though Muscovy is not.

Following this, Ruscia enters into a series of civil wars, with more and more states breaking free. Minsk is conquered by the newly independent Muscovy, so the Tsar is forced to flee to Kiev. By the modern day, there are numerous states, including a Ruscian remainder, no longer a Tsardom but now an military autocracy, and the result of that coup is that Kiev was conquered too. This remainder controls very little land- effectively the strip between OTL modern Lithuania and OTL modern Estonia, with the capital of Kaunas.

Plausible?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  14:04, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Damn.

Could Minsk, rather than being annexed by Lithuania, become a powerful state on the line of Muscovy and Novgorod OTL?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  14:04, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Well, what other city could become the center of Russia? <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  00:45, February 5, 2013 (UTC) Smolensk, then. Sorry, temporary troubles with my signature. <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  23:02, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

My corrections to Ross Perot
Why did you undo my spelling corrections?

The words were misspelled.

EoGuy (talk) 16:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

EoGuy (talk) 16:02, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  21:05, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Imperialist America
Hey LG. I was wondering if there are any plausible POD's that would turn the United States into an imperialistic nation? Enclavehunter (talk) 02:13, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Hey LG, Dean here, how have you been? (DeanSims: Talk) 06:03, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well thats good, glad to hear it. (DeanSims: Talk) 07:14, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Denendeh again
Hope you have been doing well, LG (been a while since we last spoke).

Anyway, I do hope that you forgive me for bringing up this topic for the third (really second) time, but it just won't leave my mind. If you recall, I brought up the idea of British Alaska being united with the North-Western Territory to form a "Dominion of Denendeh," separate from Rupert's Land. You have brought up both times that it was too lowly populated to constitute an independent dominion. However, I believe I have found a loophole in this.

I have wrote an essay on the my argument. While I would like to hope that this will turn you around, I'm sure you may find a loophole of your own. Either way, I would love to get your opinion on this new insight, and I hope I don't bore you with my long essay. XP --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:34, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Figures, I really thought I had something here.


 * Do you really believe that New Netherland (just for the sake of argument) would help fund railroads all the way to the Pacific. Wait... what am I talking about? Knowing NN, anything that makes a "cha-ching" sound would obviously get their attention, and the resources in NN and PA would be the obvious one-stop shop for the materials and money to do so. In which, case, let me restate the question: would the British want help from NN?


 * But having a railroad earlier does make sense, I just had no idea it would've been as much of a need, primarily because this would be the first trans-continental railroad with both connections having low populations (with no knowledge of what was to come in the region). So I would hope you can understand where I was coming from.


 * As for my comment about Alaska joining Columbia, I was only referring to this to state another British region not wanting a part in a vast dominion to back up my idea of further dividing British North America (I had no intention of actually proposing such a "Pacific Union").


 * Either way, thank you for your two cents. If you are cool with it, then I may bring this idea up again when I find another fact overlooked. But don't be surprised if you see this idea out somewhere else, because I do have another idea for it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:20, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Talk:European Broadcasting Union (1983: Doomsday)
It seems like you know more than me about this issues. So, the article I've created must be deleted? If the article won't be deleted, do you know how to improve this article? I appreciate your answer. Halliwellroad (talk) 13:11, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Re:13FS PoD
Glad you like the POD idea (sorry for the delayed response).

While I admit any white population in Liberia would be infinitesimally small, I though it was made clear that Robert E. Lee would encourage the movement of the freed slaves to Liberia (or did I forget to mention this idea?). But like I said, it was a longshot idea at best (no worries).

When I made the statement about Virginia being segregated, I had no intention of that meaning today. But when Obama's father would go to the US OTL, it was during segregation. By today it would not mean the case.

You really think Carolina would still be segregated? I was under the impression that MLK and the Civil Rights Movement would still rise up in Carolina like OTL (just with a more aggressive government to fight). I would argue that by today, it would probably be pressured to happen. Or do you mean "segregation" in a different meaning? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:01, February 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am definitely shocked that segregation could still be happening in Carolina today, but at the same time I am not all that surprised. This just reminds me of South Africa and apartheid. However apartheid could be argued as being easier to overcome because the native population vastly outnumbered the white leadership, while Carolina is the opposite. A little sad to think about what could happen here because of which, but it does get me a little exited to think of the darkness of it. In short... definitely something I never thought about before. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:49, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yep, darkness seems to get a lot more appeal than happiness and sunshine (look at 1983, lol).

Now I wonder what LBJ would be like in this timeline (if he is indeed born and later leads Carolina). I guess the argument that his upbringing ATL would be different, but I have a feeling (at the very least) he would be moderate to somewhat liberal on the issue. Not sure what this could accomplish. Also, George Wallace would sure shine here (in more than one way). God this guy scares me. XP --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:12, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol (glad to see he scares a lot of people). Oh well, wait 'til '72 (*epic foreshadowing*). I also have to consider Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore. I don't see these guys as being anything like those of the '50s and '60s (even with the environment being different). To be honest, I could see George W. Bush being more Carolinian then Al Gore (I feel bad for saying that). Got any thoughts on these guys?


 * Also as a bonus, I feel kinda bad that Florida ATL would not be "New New York" as I know it. I got a new idea for the timeline, New Netherland annexes Florida into their empire. What do you think? LOL. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:09, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sad.

I think Wallace makes a better Carolinian then a Virginian, so I don't think I am going to change anything involving him.

I would hope the Bushs would be assimilated into New York life (resistance is futile). So it anything, that comment was a joke.

I also do hope you know I absolutely had no intentions of annexing Florida here (I guess it wasn't that funny). But having lived here for 12 years, and being crammed Florida history during High School, I can conclude what East Florida would be like here. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:56, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait... Gore would be Virginian? I did some research, and his family seems to be mixed. But I guess without a united country to move through, his ancestors would remain in Virginia (I will look into it more).


 * Guessed it wasn't that funny since you responded so seriously. Now what would have been hilarious would have been you saying something like: "well given the timing, New Netherland could probably take Florida easily." I was hoping you would have said that. XP But other than that, I do think I have an interesting idea for what East Florida would be like ATL (with West Florida being ATL Alabama T_T). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:23, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well I guess I can see him as Virginian (he was born in DC OTL... thought that would be Maryland).

Oh? You interested in Florida, eh! Well, it should be simple to figure out the timeline here. Norther Florida (St. Augustine, Tallahassee, etc) were settled first... by Southerners. This would obviously not change. Due to the heat and unexplored lands further south, they would most likely remain sparsely settled up until today (like OTL). The difference will be that it would be populated by mostly Southerners, instead of Northerners looking to get away from the snow. I could also potentially see Florida having the same "retirement" feel like OTL, just with old Southerners.

With no diaspora of Northerners into Florida, I could also see the ranchers (called "Crackers" [yes, they are]) who originally settled here to be a little happy. Much of Florida's early history was in ranching (in fact, Florida had the first cattle ranch in the nation, well before Texas), and it was the beef from Florida that helped feed the Confederate Army. With Northerners not pushing them gradually into the center (and even completely out), I could see EF having taking on the role of "Texas" in many respects. Though this would depend on how many really want to settle down there (or in my case... here).

I could also maybe see a diaspora of blacks settling in the furthest south, potentially as a means to live in somewhat equality from the apartheid much further north. This part of Florida does have a large Minority population, and with Cuba not becoming communist, it could just be populated by fleeing blacks.

That's what I had in mind, what do you think? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:59, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Two questions...
Hello again Lordganon.

As the title suggests, I have two questions: Thanks.
 * 1) I have been told that you play or have experienced Victoria 2. I have an error that prevents me from playing it, and I was directed to you as being helpful in solving it.
 * 2) Can we make pages that are not associated with just one timeline, but several? For example, the Battle For Earth pages, is it within the rules to create a page for one of alien races that transends each game?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 17:28, February 10, 2013 (UTC) Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:39, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Thank you. I tried reinstalling, but it did no good.
 * 2) Darn. Oh well.

Thanx!
Thanx for fixing up the Land of Opportunity map game! I have no idea how you managed to do all that but you did! Daxus Inferno (talk) 03:52, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Another question
Hello again.

I'm wondering if it be okay if I could put most of the Touhou images for deletion. I'm planning on just replacing most of the character images used in the articles with the ones from the official games. On ones that don't I'll be trying to find the original source of the image so I can credit the original artist and link to the source on the picture's page. For the rest that aren't really used on any articles, I'm going to put them up for deletion. -Kogasa  2013年2月14日 18:51:14 (JST)

South Africa idea for 13
How's it going?

I have been doing some reading on South Africa lately, and I think I have come up with an interesting idea involving South Africa for 13 Fallen Stars. However, given that my recent idea for an independent Rio Grande turned into a bust (I seriously thought it was workable), I would love to get a second opinion before I go any further. Don't want to find out later it too is a bust.

In short, my idea stems from the notion that the Cape Colony would remain Dutch, and thereby the British would have a weaker presence in the region. My idea (in the long run) would be that OTL South Africa would here be four sovereign states: the Dutch Cape Colony, the British Colony of Natal, and the Boer Republics of Transvaal and the OFS (more or less like the four provinces of Apartheid South Africa).

The overall history would be that (obviously) the Dutch keep the Cape, because there would be no Napoleonic War. From what I recent read (both from OTL history and alternate history discussions), it would appear that the Boers (the rural farmers of Dutch decent) would still migrate out of the Cape. In OTL this was due to the British, but here it would be based on the centralization of the colony by the Dutch. With the British not getting the cape, they would most likely attempt a colonial grab in Natal (which appears to already be canon on this timeline), which would push the Boers to the northeast (like OTL).

Over time, they establish two independent republics. Like both did in OTL, I would suspect that the Dutch and the Brits would recognize their independence, since the regions they claimed had little value at the time, and because they opened the way to the interior. I don't believe the Dutch would act aggressively towards their own, and I don't believe the British would have much gain in antagonizing conflict in the region (especially if Natal's importance begins to dwindle after the creation of the Suez Canal).

With the discovery of diamonds in the area, a rush would take place (like OTL), with the Dutch ultimately gaining the majority of these mines (as did the British OTL).

That is about what I have at the moment. Again, I don't want to go much further if this idea is a dud. Overall, I think the Dutch would have little reason to bother the Boer Republics, especially if they can prove useful (off the top of my head: act as a buffer between the Cape and the Portuguese, or to prevent British expansion, maybe sounding stupid). I am debating on whether the Cape Colony would eventually declare independence (like OTL-ish), and that Natal would become part of the UBC.

I do hope this idea is workable. So forgive me if I made absolutely no sense at all. But either way, I do look forward to your opinion. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:34, February 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I hope you are doing okay.


 * From what I have read about the Boers, they were semi-nomadic and were against any type of authority. While maybe comparing it completely to OTL was a bad way to go, they still sound like those who were going to move, irregardless of who was in control (it wasn't under the Dutch or British control). If anything, it would be like comparing the migration west in US history.


 * But if this idea still sounds stupid to you, than can you think of any way this could be workable? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:03, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well whatever happens, do what you have to do. I do wish you luck on it.


 * The primary reason I am interested in the Boer republics existing was because of a theme I have been trying to do on this timeline: that OTL federations are not united (a la the USA). While this area is tricky, I assumed that given the distance from the Cape, and the fact that it was just for settlement (and had no value until much later), I believed that the Dutch (like the British) would allow them independence or (at the least) greater autonomy.


 * Your explanation did just give me an idea, though not too sure how workable it would be. Keep the idea, but change the timing. The treks still happen, but for different reasons. They remain somewhat autonomous entities. By the time the Dutch end slavery and begin moves towards equality, these regions wont take kindly to it and would declare independence (a la the South). Given the distances, and the readiness of the Boers (I have read that they were packed to the teeth with guns [I know it sounds out of context, but hear me out]), they would be able to thwart off the Dutch (more or less like they did towards the British in the first Boer War).


 * Don't know what you will think of this idea. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:51, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

My Sig
No problem! This is the last use of the current form of the sug. :)

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  05:06, February 21, 2013 (UTC)

hey!
WHY ARE YOU DELETEING MY PAGE? Chao101 (talk) 10:32, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

like what rules exactly? Chao101 (talk) 00:46, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

SA... again
Well, here is another map of how South Africa might look. I have changed the border thing in some areas, so its more "natural".

I was really wondering, however, whether Waterboersland would have expanded more, considering there would be more Africans arriving from the chaos and and there would be more propagation and stuff...

And I wanted to ask about the OFS. Would they expand more through the small window of expansion they have?

Just a few points I was wondering about (hope the new map is better) :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:01, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

Righty. I've updated the map, and hopefully you'll see tha I have expanded borders normally and not using the provice divide things. If you approve, I'll fix up the map properly. So how is the map now? Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:47, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

BTW, is the OFS allowed to use the port facilities of KwaZulu? As this would allow them to send expeditions and get survivors over from the Netherlands. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:51, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, well. So there would not be that many whites there, correct? Or are there tonnes of whites in the country as most of them survived and reproduced?

On the map, the Azanian League can only expand in the west/south westernly area as they are blocked by other countries around them. Got a new map about their borders. Hows it now? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:29, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Isiro
Well, here we go. The rebellion hath started. Democratie Pour Isiro will become a reality. What would happen here as a result of the rebellion? I imagine a significant portion of the military would join in? And would the government after become a genuine democracy or a dictatorship? Which is more plausible? Actually, would the rebels win? Or would some sort of compromise be reached; a constitutional monarchy?

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  00:39, February 27, 2013 (UTC)a a

Hmm. Fine, ok. But perhaps faking a democracy? Rest of the world takes hope, Isiro applies- and is eventually granted- Observer status to the LoN? Then, of course the real facts come out....

By the way, does the 'rollback powers' the constables are granted involve the ability to undo any edits? Because for some reason, I'm able to do that... <span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."

Me again
Hows it going? I have another idea that I would love to get your feedback on. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:07, March 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your feedback.


 * Forgive me, but I truly hope you are mistaken about Canada. It has been canon for years now that Canada gains independence and is a republic. I got no complaints when I first proposed the idea years ago, and I have not gotten any complaints until now. We even discussed this a few weeks back, and you had no complaints then. Again, I do hope this is a mistake. But either way, I have no intention of changing what has been canon for years. So I would appreciate it that you not correct me on this topic. Please and thank you. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:34, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

I believe I have made mention of this to you before. When we were discussing an Imperial Federation, I made mention that I wasn't comfortable of you referring to Canada as part of this federation (as they were "not part of the British Empire anymore"), and your response was that you were only using that word for simplicity. I though I was being clear, but looking back, I could see how it could have been missed. I do apologize for crossing out your comment, I had no idea it would upset you. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:58, March 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, I do apologize for that. I seriously thought that was pretty straight forward when I wrote it, but I guess I wasn't thinking.


 * Now that I think of it, my original intentions for Canada was that the British don't divide the original Province of Quebec, meaning that when revolution breaks out among the Quebekers in the 1830s, it and Louisiana (who rebelled around the same time) gain full independence. But as I continued to do some reading, I came across that it was pretty much inevitable that the province was going to be divided, as loyalists were flooding the area from the USA (leading to the English-dominated Upper Canada), so I reworked this into it.


 * If it helps any, weren't the loyalists during the American Revolution more or less the majority? I watched a video a while back which was talked about this, and yet here we are as a republic. I also don't see why some settlement by Virginians, Pennsylvanians, and even New Englanders in the NWT would be unheard of. The territory was still claimed as "American", but would gradually fall to a British control (the areas not won by VA and PA that is). New England would not sell the their claims until the early 1800s, and given how quick other NE claims (OTL) like Cleveland, OH, had done, it wouldn't surprise me if NE began gradual moves to colonize their territory.


 * Virginia and Pennsylvania (as you mentioned a long while back) were moving into the area no matter what, and I don't think it would surprise me that many would move into areas that wound up not being part of their government after the NW War. Given the time and effort to get where they were, I would guess that a good number wouldn't just pack up and move back, and would probably just remain where they were.


 * As time progressed, and the French began to revolt, I could see that the decedents of these "Americans" may support more autonomy and may even fight to gain it. I was even thinking of an event (more for novelty than actually doing it) that Mackenzie would have suggested admitting Toronto and the area west of the Niagara river as a new state of New Netherland (again, this is not a real idea, but a quark of history). With "Americans" in Charlotina, and the French in "Quebec", it shouldn't be impossible to assume that the Tories in "Ontario" would be sandwiched between revolution.


 * I also have to ask why you think some of the American state wouldn't support a revolution there? While I could see New England defiantly being neutral in such an event due to good relations, I personally don't see New Netherland and Virginia having such positive relations. In fact, I see these two in particular having similar tensions with London as the US did OTL. Remember, Britain supported the loss of Vermont from NN, and the loss of the majority of the NWT from Virginia. Combined with the fact that most from these states (OTL) were not fond of the British OTL (with a Virginian declaring the War of 1812), I doubt they would have friendly relations after this. While I doubt there would be as much tension as OTL's USA, tension would still exist (but would get better quicker over the century). I bet they would see positives of having an independent Canada (buffer state, Great Lakes, weakening the Brits) as something worth supporting to a degree, but it wouldn't have gone far enough to gain government support (a la Texas Revolution).


 * If not for them, there is always the French. Remember, still heavily in debt, the French went out of their way to support the independence of the USA. With the French Revolution being a failure, I could see many revolutionaries fleeing France and winding up in North America (Louisiana especially), but also Canada. The revolutionaries would spread their message, and the next generation would lead revolutions in French Louisiana and French Canada. I also don't see why the French themselves wouldn't support Canada. Remember, the French despised the Brits (revolution or not), and why wouldn't they support their own people in getting away from the British?


 * But given what has been said, I will relook into how such a Canada is governed. I chose a federation because of its vast size, but this was before we made Borealia a unitary state within an imperial federation. I suppose a unitary state (based on the (OTL) French/Virginian model) could be supported, or something different entirely is adopted. As you mentioned, the failure of the Americans to federalize showed its failure, and its not like the Brits had allowed these colonies much more federalization than what the others would get. I will look into this.


 * Also, you don't need to worry about other bits of advice you gave me, because I doubt there would be any real difference between this and that. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:18, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I believe this whole situation is very distressing for me. Given my luck of having all my ideas for the past few months come of fruitless, it shouldn't really be surprise me that one of my first ideas upon taking this timeline should now come up as being garbage, and that everything I thought was straightforward is actually worthless. All I can think of now is what else did I do that will turn out to have been another waist of time on my part.

I still don't know what I am going to do about this new insight, but either way I feel upset thinking about changing this, or changing other things to keep it (a loose-loose situation). So forgive me if I am upset at this. I don't think I am going to bother with new ideas for quite a while, and just focus on one thing that is safe to add to. Either way, thank you for your help. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:12, March 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't worry about it. Given all the time and effort I put into to an idea and to have it proven wrong in a shorter period of time, is enough to get anyone depressed. That and other problems facing me and my family at the present also have say here.


 * Either way, I am taking a break from all this heavy work and looking into new ways to expand my timelines, and I am going to stick to one thing for a while. I have already been doing much needed work on the New Netherland article which makes me happy. I still have no idea what I am going to do about the "Canada issue," but probably just going to have it be a part of the UC in the end, but it is a little upsetting to remove years of work. Again, no need to worry about it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:08, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

World War II Alternate History
Hey LG. I want to develope an alternate World War II history, with a Nazis and Japanese Victory, but not wanting it to be biased. Is there any plausible POD's before the war or during the war that could allow such a victory? Enclavehunter (talk) 05:26, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for this being so late...
Anywaym to respond to your questions, tha game manages to load all the way to the final loading screen, then this pops up. CreateVertexDeclaration failed! (ProvinceVertexDecl) Then the game cannot load any further, and I cannot find any help on the internet on this specific error.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 17:54, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Louisiana
Kinda surprised to see you hear so early. I am relieved to hear that it sounds okay. I will look into it later.

Since I have you, mind if I as a Canada question. Though this is how the map has been and I have not gotten any comments against it, I want to be sure that Canada (being part of this United Commonwealth) would still be its own entity, not having been merged into Borealia (which has what is Northwestern Canada and Alaska). I want to be sure, though this would obviously exclude Labrador which already went to Newfoundland. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:22, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's nice to talk without a day lag. XD


 * I am well aware of the boundary dispute. As to what you are getting at, I don't follow. If looking at the issue with a "statehood" mentality (i.e., what helped define border disputes between the 13 Colonies OTL), I guess it could be possible that Canada gains the better deal as they were a dominion earlier than Newfoundland. But at the same time, Canada has a lot more "valuable" territory (nothing against Labrador) that Newfoundland could be seen as worthy to gain its border. Or in short, what do you mean? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:49, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

It's seems rather silly for Quebec to continue a border dispute. But I will look into this more.



Since I still have you, I wanted to see if I am on the right track with South Africa here. What I am thinking of now would have two Dutch "dominions" in South Africa, and Natal including the eastern-most parts. The Anglo-Dutch border I chose is a straight line marking the easternmost reach of the Dutch by 1795, gives the British all the diamonds in the east, gives them Swaziland and Lesotho, and about divides the "Bore Republics" in what you said (OFS being two-thirds Dutch and one-third British). I also extended the border north for the Dutch (since Botswana would by far be different), and I believe Natal wouldn't go any further than that, as the Portuguese had their eyes in a land corridor between Mozambique and Angola. I have no idea what you are going to make of it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:23, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear that this is somewhat workable. I don't have a blank map per say, but you can Google one. Either way, I may want to relook at it myself.


 * Just to see if it still holds water... you did say to me "Now, the Dutch may well set up some sort of separate administration further inland. Brits did it there otl, so it makes sense for the Dutch to do it atl", so why are you now telling me otherwise? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:17, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

I had no idea me lowering the opacity was a deal breaker here. Since my old version is outdated, I uploaded the same file as being blank. Feel free to just upload your version on that file, and I will replace it with a detailed version down the way.

Well that bites, I was really hoping to have at least some type of salvage from my original idea of multiple Dutch colonies there. And the fact that parts of Namibia will be added only make me see the need to have multiple dominions. And while the "Bores" wouldn't exist here, I still see many moving inland as a means to have "privacy" would favor a division. But whatever, I'll get over it.

As for using rivers as the border, I really don't see it. I'd prefer to use that straight line to divide the Brits and the Dutch. Given the fact that the Brits could probably take more if they wanted to, I believe the Dutch would be willing to give up a little bit in order to have a defined border (as you said, it wouldn't be much of a loss). And if for anything, it is much easier to draw.

As for moving the border further south, I have nothing against it (I just knew that northernmost border was used at one time); and for the Brits gaining parts of Mozambique, as long as the Portuguese don't mind, I don't.

But either way, let me see what you have in mind, and I can work from there. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:08, March 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe the map of North America is just about done, but I have a few more questions that I would like to get your views on.


 * First off, you mentioned that Cuba (and the Philippines) would become independent, but you failed to mention Puerto Rico. Would they become independent or remain with Spain?


 * Lastly are on the French territories in the Caribbean: Haiti and the West Indies. Do you think they would remain with France (more or less under a similar union as OTL) or gain independence in some form? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:11, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Glad I could help (I hate bullies). I also had no idea a thousand years was even an option. I would also state that he also went to my home wiki to ask why I blocked him (but I blocked him there as well). But either way, hard to say how long to block someone depending on what they do.

Thank you for your feedback. I will look into whether Puerto Rico gains independence or not, and I had really no doubt that the French West Indies would remain French.

My only follow up would be Haiti, I don't fully get what you mean. Since you state you hope it is less violent, I assume you mean they would likely gain independence. Nothing against that, but when do you believe they would leave? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:50, March 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but I believe I took care of it. Hopefully he leaves us alone.


 * So Haiti would gain independence more or less around the same time it did OTL, just you hope it would be less violent. I can work from there.


 * I also have a [don't want to say an "idea", but more of a question], you mentioned that rebels flee and stir up trouble in Haiti. If the rebels are successful, wouldn't we maybe see a Haiti still run by white slave owners and retains slavery (at least for a time being). I am just going back to Carolina, and you mentioning that they help out Cuban independence; this also makes me think whether or not Carolina would support keeping a White-dominated Haiti as an ally (meaning Carolina helps keep the status quo in the event of a slave rebellion). I could maybe see Louisiana help out if the time is right. Again, I don't want to say this is an idea, but the outcome I see when combining Haitian independence lead by fleeing rebels.


 * What do you mean by "stub." If you are referring to making it canon, than I am all for that. If you wish to open it for others to expand upon, I am not for that. I still have a lot to finish up, but it will get done sooner or later. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:38, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to say, but I believe I am more confused than ever in regards to Haiti. I have done more reading on the Haitian Revolution, and it only makes be have more questions. Most importantly, would they even include the whole island? I believe it was you who mentioned that it was likely it would include the entire island, but I believe I have found controdiction (at least from what I previously thought). I read that the French controlled the entire island from 1795 to 1804, but the French Revolution would be crushed in 1792 (as mentioned in the timeline). What do you make of this?

Though after doing more reading, I may have come out with a quick timeline that may work here. The revolution goes as planed in France, the slave revolt also happens on schedule in 1791. The rebellion is crushed in 1792, but the slave revolt and conflict in the colony continue. Somewhat like OTL, peace/detente is achieved between France and the colonial residence. Slavery is abolished, and a black-lead government is established. Detente between the slaves and former slave owners is achieved, and a period of peace happens (more or less like OTL). No Napoleon allows this detente to last a bit longer, with the King of France allowing some autonomy as they can't do much at the time. Rebels flee to the island, and spread independence among the already independence-pron island. Revolution sparks again (some time prior to 1810), gaining independence from France. Most likely, the name "Haiti" would be adopted as the name of this new nation. During the chaos of the early Latin American rebellions, Haiti is able to seize control of the entire island.

Not sure what you think. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:34, March 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * I see. Like I said, it is pretty confusing coming at it from a limited knowledge. Thank you for clearing some things up. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:12, March 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also (because I completely forgot), if you would like to make my Shoreham article canon now, that has my support.


 * I also wanted to get your opinion on users here who have flags/files as part of their signature. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:50, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Glad to hear it.

I was only curious because I believe Wikipedia doesn't allow them, and I have been seeing more users using them. But not much I can do about it. But if they are using duplicates, don't be too surprised that their signatures would have dead file links (because it would be insane to correct every single comment they have made).

Glad to see that my Russian monarchy lineup is okay. Since my presidential lineup for New Netherland is more or less done, I wanted to get a look at the monarchies. Not sure if you have looked, but many just seem completely made up and have no historic backing (especially Britain's).

As much as I would like to read about the reign of Tsar Alexei, I know it wasn't going to happen. Either way, I will continue to play around. Also, who's Paul? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:02, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Just as a heads up, I blocked a user for harassing me. I wrote about it on the TSPTF talk page. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:54, March 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I have felt quite frazzled for the past day. I didn't want to write it on the talk because I believe he may have been watching. But I believe that guy also used multiple IPs to vandalize my homepage. I know it doesn't have anything to do with here, but I felt it appropriate to at least tell you. I reported this to Wikia but I have yet to receive a response, and I don't know whether he is done or not. I am rather surprised he didn't do it here as well.


 * As for the other things. Would Paul still be assassinated as OTL? And I told you, I have no idea what that guy was thinking. Though I do have to say that the use of "William" for six consecutive monarchs must be a record. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:34, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that is pretty much what I though (too coincidental). That is why I removed it from my user page here. Not too sure that blocking the many IPs he used is going to help. I would block one, and he would just find another one. Again, I am surprised he didn't go on a vandalizing spree here as well. And Pita brought it up, but it wouldn't surprise me that the only reason he contacted me was to troll me. Also, hope you weren't too creeped out at my site. XP

I still couldn't guess what the original author had in mind (he also made up some Presidents for New England and such). I will probably get to all of them eventually.

The only one I may have interest in getting out of the way early (aside from Russia) is Britain (which is now the UC). Given what I know about the monarchy of the UK, I don't believe much would change from OTL. Aside from the "House of Windsor" not existing (unless anti-German sentiment would develop here), I still believe the lineup would be about the same. The only variable would be Edward VIII, who I believe would probably be the same ATL (he didn't show much interest in being King, and married who he wanted to). But I would like to get your thoughts.

Also speaking of the UC, what do you believe Hanover's place in the United Commonwealth would be (since they had a personal union with the UK that lasted until the 1830s [IIRC]). Or would they leave and be on their own today.

If Micheal follows Nicholas eventually, than his son would follow him. I do know Micheal had a son OTL (George), but he was not to inherit the thrown because he was born from a mistress (who was legally married to someone else). Unless it changes over time, than I suppose another (fictional) son (or daughter would be interesting) would follow, and the rest of Russian Tsars would be made up (no changing that).

If that be the case, I would want to avoid another "Alexander" and "Nicholas." I also though maybe an "Alexei" may pop up (maybe Michal names his son in honor of his nephew). Just a thought. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:54, March 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * House of Mountbatten? Hm.


 * So the personal union would just end like OTL? No problem there.


 * I never considered the power of a monarch to make rules (still a republican, after all). Interesting to see what George would do, hopefully not dying in a car crash in Paris. I will work on the successors from there (probably the only time making up names is workable).


 * Just a heads up, I will probably be posting my updated map of Europe. I will probably post the new discussion in a few days.


 * I hope you don't mind me starting up a new conversation, but I have been thinking about it lately. While I plan on getting to Asia here at some point, I have been getting curious as to the development of China here.


 * Yank is pretty much to blame for me thinking about this. As of right now, the timeline states that China is divided among several powers (much like India and Africa to a degree). A while back (I believe it was him, though I could be wrong) he made mention that China would probably not be divided up and would be whole by today. But recently, I added Hong Kong as a potential dominion for the United Commonwealth (just to add a list of British possessions that I would look into later). Shortly after I posted that, he wrote me and questioned whether or not Hong Kong would actually be part of the larger "British China" mentioned in the timeline.


 * This gave me an idea (I still don't want to use that word XP), which would also work with another idea I was having. Since making the Imperial Federation canon, I have been wondering how the non-settler colonies (India, Nigeria, etc.) would function in this union. Given their population and non-white majority, I doubt they would be added as dominions; but I also doubt that London would just give them independence (without a fight that is). I was considering that maybe they would be given independence as OTL Australia and Canada have today; in which they keep the monarchy and remain in a Commonwealth Realm, but are granted some independence from London.


 * Anyway, I was thinking about whether or not Hong Kong could be the hub of a British-backed Cantonese "realm".


 * But before I get too deep into this, I would first like to get your opinion as to what China would look like here. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:22, March 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just a quick question (because I honestly forgot), do you still intend to make my Shoreham page canon? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:03, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that. But if any consolation, I am also having a hectic week.

Like I've said before, I am a republic so the notion of "rulers changing laws to ensure an heir" is rather odd (reminds me Henry VIII... or Putin). So forgive me if this is still news to me.

I haven't put total thought as for heirs. Though I do have a benchmark I wish to keep. First off, I want to avoid another "Alexander" or "Nicholas" (think there has been enough for a century). I am more looking towards a name that hasn't been used in a while (like "Ivan" or "Peter") or a new one (I kinda like "Cyril" as a potential name). I don't believe I will be making a Tsaritsa (Queen/Empress), especially because I may have my eye on Yulia Tymoshenko as a potential Prime Minister by today (but I will look into PMs later).

A dead ringer. I recall he messaged me twice about my absence from this timeline. But we all have our flaws.

I had a feeling it wasn't to be (too populated to even touch). You know my response to a republic, but it depends. I also wanted to mention this before (but a combination of patients and me forgetting it), this brings me back to Russia. While depending on Japan, do you believe Russia could gain Manchuria, Mongolia, and East Turkestan over time? Also Tibet?

Really? India a dominion? From what I read and (IIRC) what you said a while back, London and the rest wouldn't favor Indian admission due in part to its population (if given equal voting rights, the British Empire would become the Indian Empire). Nothing against Indian admission (mind you), just that this is definitely a game changer in what I was thinking. It would be treated like a settler colony? Does that mean a South Africa-like government (dominated by whites while the Indians are left out)? If India is in, which colonies would be left out (aside from Egypt). My guess (from what I know), would the British Arab states (Yemen, Oman, UAR, etc) be on this list?

No need to worry. Thank you again for making it canon. I do hope to get around to finishing it soon. I plan on at least finishing the history, and adding sections to the mechanics of the plant, as well as opinion and domestics towards its operation. It should be great. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:59, March 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear it. Ignoring work and family issues at the present, I did have my website vandalized a week ago, so there is plenty to be stressed about. But working here does make me happy, so there's that.


 * I actually came across an article talking about the Queen's move for gender equality, and this will indeed be an interesting move (especially if William and Kate have a daughter).


 * "Sergey" sounds like an interesting name (will look into it). Funny you should find it funny. I came across the name "Cyril" from that particular "Cyril". Aside from that, I thought it sounded good (especially in the... "Cyrilic" alphabet [YEAH!]).


 * I do agree that Manchuria depends on Japan. I have been thinking about whether to reintroduce this idea, and maybe it could work here? I originally thought of it for this timeline, but I ultimately recycled it into Russian America (only to abandon it there as well). The idea is simple, Russia and Japan agree to define their spheres of influence, with Russia gaining Manchuria and Japan gaining Korea (they did this OTL between Sakhalin and the Kurils). Japan gets a foothold on the mainland and a buffer from Russia, while Russia gets a year-round port to the Pacific. Does this sound workable here?


 * I will look into China later. You know my stance towards a republic (i.e., yes), but will look into it later.


 * If you think it's workable, than I have nothing against India. My only question is whether or not India would also include Pakistan and Bangladesh, or would it be divided into even smaller states.


 * Definitaly going to be odd to have monarchies in a monarchy (YO DAWG). Would the UAE be divided into its emirates, or would the entire "Trucial States" be one dominion? Can't put my finger on Cyprus.


 * Nice to see you are aware of my cycles. Ironically, I feel that I have been spending too much time on 13, and I am not sure why? Probably because it has a lot to get done, and much of my other ones are (more or less) done by comparison. Nothing against it, this one needs work. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:41, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Really? Haven't heard about the "daughter remark." Only time will tell.

Glad that the dates work. Since you said the Romanov's die young, I averaged it to around his 70s for George, and the same for his son, and gradually getting longer as time and medicine gets better. But the names are still a work in progress. I may ditch "Cyril" because it seems out of place at the moment, and I may have the recent Tsar be named Sergey as well (I came across the fact that Sergey was quite popular in the '80s OTL). But I will work on the finalization later.

Um... you do remember that one of the main reasons Russia was interested in Manchuria was to acquire the ports of and  (both of which are on the Liaodong Peninsula). These ports would assure Russia year-round access to the Pacific, and this would most likely be on Russia's requirements for any treaty to settle border disputes. Giving the peninsula (and the ports) to Japan kinda defeats the purpose &mdash; especially when Korea (let alone Japan) have plenty of ports to choose from.

So Pakistan would not be a part of India. I hope this would also mean better relations between the two ATL. But for a follow-up; do you mean separate in that Pakistan becomes its own dominion, or that they become independent?

Not that I'm against the idea, just that it's all new to me. If it is workable OTL, than I see nothing wrong with it here (not that it matters completely, the local parliaments would allow democracy). Speaking of Lesotho and Swaziland, I just wanted to clarify that they would not exist here (as they are morphed into Natal). I forgot to bring this up a while back, but since you seemed more anxious for Walvis Bay and not these two, I am to assume they are absorbed.

The UAE would actually be crown colonies? Does sound fishy to me (but what do I know). Personally, I think they should be united (Qatar and Bahrain as well) into a single "Dominion of Khaleej" (especially since it is being slowly populated by Indians). But that's me. XP

Nothing against a divided Cyprus (wouldn't be the first island to be divided). As for the Greco-Turkish border, I will leave that for the continued discussion on Europe (which I will post in a few days). I had a few ideas for Turkey that I would like to discuss, but I will be sure to add a divided Cyprus before I post it.

It hasn't failed me yet. The only downside (and annoyance) is that the timelines I am not working on tend to become more active when I am not in the "zone" for them (e.g., what's his name's electoral template for New Union). Real life seems to do that to. While working on DD... Hurricane Sandy hits New York. Now that I am on 13, a meteorite explodes over Russia and North Korea becomes active. It's like I can't win. LOL. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:38, March 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Really? There's bets on this?


 * Well I haven't finalized anything, yet. So I can't say what I plan to use name-wise. But I will work on those later.


 * It would also depend on the timing. By the late 1890s, Russia pushed to have those ports be theirs (only to loose them in war). So it would have to be done earlier (when would you think would be the right year?). I like how you are trying to convince me of the superiority of those other ports (it's working). However, my main fondness of Dalny is because of the name (it just sounds cool for a Russian city). From what I have recently read, many in Russia were opposed to the construction of Dalny (due in part to those other mentioned ports already existing). If they were to put the same amount of effort into say Yingkou, then it should be just as good a city. Though my only problem is the name. Would you have any objections to be calling it "Dalny" (because I do love that name; maybe it comes out in simplicity to Russia leaving Dalian).


 * Wow, you are still full of surprises. Love the map, but let me see if I can get it straight. All but Pakistan and Burma would become dominions (excluding Bhutan, Sikkim, Tripura, and Manipur; which become crown colonies). Portugal and France retain their parts (with the Dutch and Danish get bought out), and Afghanistan gains a little more. I don't see anything wrong with this, but I know little about Indian history to really give any critique on this other than I like it.


 * Am I detecting an Edwards supporter? (LOL) Allow me to explain. Excluding New Netherland (which I would have had to be crazy not to have Rudy be President), the remaining American Republics I just randomly chose a leader to (at the least) be temporary. Recently I changed New England to John Kerry, and Pennsylvania to Hillary Clinton (I know she won't be called "Clinton" here, but details). Virginia and Maryland are trickier to figure out (because OTL governors have a vastly different agenda then the president of a nation), and Virginia doesn't have any notable candidates that I know of (aside from Al Gore, who probably would have had his terms by now).


 * Huckabee just popped in my head the other night, and his ancestry (not to mention politics) just seem to scream "Carolina", so I though he would be better than Edwards (who I just chose randomly). Nothing against him, I'm sure he would have been an interesting President, but I believe Huckabee would probably beat Edwards in an election. The only interesting thing I can think of would be if Edwards' had the same legal issues during his presidency. Combined with Bill Clinton, Carolina would have have an active presidency in that regard. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:56, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed response. I am just getting over the flu (it is just as wonderful as it sounds).

I will look more into Manchuria to get an idea, but I do love how you are trying to sell these other ports to me.

Japan is going to be an odd one to figure out &mdash; especially since I know little about Japan. Imagine all the topics I have worked on here, and the two main ones that caused debates were that I didn't know about Matthew C. Perry, and that I stayed away from DD (go figure). Depending on what New England would do ATL (since Perry is from Rhode Island), they could maybe open up relations with Japan. But no matter what, the Russians were next after Perry.

Lol. So you are telling me that the only reason you brought him up was to say that he would be Carolinian? Forgive me, but this is a perfect time for a "thank you Captain Obvious!" (he was born in North Carolina, after all XD). In all seriousness, the only reason I chose him was because he would be Carolinian. I knew nothing about his politics and character (I even think I put his name on there before his trial), and I was going to look into him more and/or replace him sooner or later.

Given how I am seeing Carolina as a nation &mdash; a conservative, Christian nation that is too stubborn to move on &mdash; I feel that Huckabee would be a better personification than Edwards (at least at the present). But given his age, Edwards would maybe pop up in the future (depending on how he acts here).

What I was referring to with Maryland was that I though if similar to OTL, the Presidents ATL would correspond to Governors OTL. With that, Maryland would be run by younger, inexperienced politicians. But after looking into it more, it appears that (at least recently) many of Maryland's leaders would be okay (age wise). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:25, April 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hank Green did a video recently for Crash Course, and it was talking about the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans (and since New England would be pretty much a Federalist haven, this should apply here). Aside from wanting positive relations with the British, the Federalists also wanted to become a maritime trading power. Given that New England would also go towards Antarctica (as we discussed previously), I don't see it as too far-fetched that New England makes it to Japan. Though the question on whether Perry would be as persuasive as OTL could be in question. Maybe minor trading rights would be established, but Japan remains isolationist (for a while).


 * I do remember reading that it was a Russian &mdash; &mdash; who lead an expedition to open up Japan to Russian trade. He arrived one month after Perry (making Russia the next in line). Japan was moved to open relations with Russia after Perry. Depending on what Perry does here, maybe it's Putyatin who takes the role of Perry in relations. What do you think?


 * To be honest, I am not all that surprised about a New Englander ancestry in Columbia. And to show how my brain works, the first thing I am questioning is whether this would "hurt" Columbia legalizing marijuana ATL. I have actually been considering how religion in New England would affect the independent republics. It was many religious movements originating from New England that pushed abolitionism and prohibition in the US. From what I can make out, I believe only Carolina and New England would actually prohibit alcohol at some point, with the others leaving it for the regions to decide (not being on a federal level).


 * Hm... didn't really think about that. For simplicity, I usually leave ancestry alone when they are born in one of the Thirteen States. I sill feel bad that I haven't been putting much effort into Maryland (in fact, I know little about the state aside from crab cakes and Ace of Cakes). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:27, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Logical
on DD1983  Linz, Austria has a huge steel mill and oil refineries. Baoji China is home to to the 21st army group that defenses the northeast of china. So why are they not logical targets? Iwaschris (talk) 02:22, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

I won't bother trying anymore but am curiuos, why the two of the  largest munutions facilities wouldn't  get nuked,or Ft Rucker that has more assets and is the home to Army aviation  than say Ft Irwin, CA which is nothing by a desert training center. Iwaschris (talk) 13:46, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Also, I can't find any reference to the HQ of the Lanzhou Miliary Region being in city of Lanzhou every place I look shows Baoji being the HQ and location of most units for the 21st Group Army units, with my sources including the Globalsecurity.org. Can you please let me know what your sources are for future reference. Iwaschris (talk) 20:02, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

You should take your own advice and google Lanzhou Military Region comes up the same Baoji is the HQ.

Second the the unit that is stationed in Ft Irwin are older vechicle that are Modified to look like soviet vechicles and play the role of the opfor  the unit training there are on a base that is 7000 sq miles and could be anywhere. so nuking them would be hard.

But I won't bother you on this issue again. Iwaschris (talk) 10:36, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't how I got off track, but you are right about Lanzhou being HQ for Lanzhou Military Region but we started talking about Baoji being HQ for the 21st Group Army which it is, so I surpose nuking Lanzhou would make sense in the limited attack against China on Sept 26.

I still think the other sites,the munition facilities and Ft Rucker, in the US should still be reviewed as good targets after all reducing a nations ability to build weapons and train pilots, IMO, would be high on the target list as part of a first strike. Sorry to bother you again, but your comment that I didn't research or think it out logically kind of bugged me, But then again I did totally goof on Linz being a target.Iwaschris (talk) 19:51, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Troll
This user, GWB III has caused several problems for me and my friends on other wikis, to the point where he was banned infinitely on both wikis. Now he has followed me here and said "Wassup asshole?" I was wondering if he could be banned.

20:13, March 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry to intrude on this issue, but I have to agree with Scrawland here. He has pretty much been banned on all the wikis he has been working on, and only decided to come here to taunt Scrawland and to add political gibberish on his userpage. If you have no objections, I will be blocking him for a month, and you feel free to extend or detract from that if need be. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:06, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Partition of Germany
Is any possibility for Germany for being partitioned in the world without Stalin? FirstStooge (talk) 11:54, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean for Germany would "not be divided on the same terms" FirstStooge (talk) 13:09, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

Very good idea :)

Last question, if I can make Poland strong enough to stay between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in late 1920s or maybe in early 1930s, is any possibility to make Poland joined the Allies that includes its old nemesis, the Soviet, and save the pre-war Polish government? FirstStooge (talk) 13:37, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

Could with Kirov on the board the Soviet become less agressive especially toward Poland and Finland? FirstStooge (talk) 13:31, March 21, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, if I secure the Ukrainian independence from the Soviet and created a military alliance between Pilsudki's Poland and Petliura's Ukraine, there are any chances for the Soviet to have a second thought for being too hostile toward Poland? FirstStooge (talk) 13:12, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

You are right, LG, no matter which person would being the Soviet leader (even Kirov), nothing can stop Soviet ambition toward Poland to establish a Polish soviet government.

Thanks anyway for your good advices :) FirstStooge (talk) 11:49, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Franco-British Union
Hi Lordganon

I was just wondering how is my TL, The Franco-British Union a ASB because if you don't believe me the offer from Mollet was real.

Thanks - User:Lewody1 23/03/13 09:53 UTC

1983: Doomsday Guidelines/unique?
Been a while since we've last exchanged thoughts. You probably don't remember me at all, that's fine. I used to edit some projects on this site a year ago, worked on a few articles - and at least three dealt with the 1983: Doomsday timeline. I'm trying to tread carefully here (administrators, obviously, watch this one with particular interest) but I've read over the guidelines for both the site and the TL at hand on several occasions now...still an unanswered question.

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but I remain completely in the dark with regards to editing somebody else's article, even if it's merely to link a topic or correct spelling. Is everybody expected to stick completely to their own work and hands off everything else, even if it's for constructive, non-creative, means? What can be done to modify an article once it's passed into canon? Do we have to submit a new section up for review every time a major event happens, such as war or annexation?

--Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 22:00, March 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for clarifying. Apparently, I missed that discussion. On another topic, would you happen to know what the canon status is on Doomsday's Zimbabwe at the moment? I noticed Caer's proposals and thought perhaps I could take a stab at something a little more credible. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 18:11, March 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Presently looking into some possibilities regarding the evolution of our mystery brigadier's name. In the meantime, could the 8th Army Corps be substituted for the 9th Corps? Understandably, the entire formation was headquartered in Elazig, but I noticed that most of the units were actually based in settlements near Armenia. With the outbreak of a Turkish-Soviet frontier war immediately following Doomsday, it seems only logical that the 8th Corps (which was strategically placed to fight in the Caucasus prior) would waste no time in shifting every ounce of their existing manpower - a certain ubiquitous brigade commander included - to counter such a serious threat from that front. The 48th Motorized Brigade idea seems attractive, but the current plotline that Trabzon's self-proclaimed emperor once held a command on the border has always been an integral trend in the state's initial backstory - and I do wish to salvage it within reason. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 23:16, March 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Did some digging and found a perfect solution. Until 1996, the Turkish Army's 11th Corps was actually based in Trabzon to counter any possible invasions via the USSR's Transcaucasian Military District. Thanks anyway for your insightful suggestions thus far. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 18:43, March 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you referring to open diplomatic recognition on Georgia/Armenia's part? And what interest could Greece possibly have in Trabzon? Addressing your other remarks, I'll need some specifics to work with.


 * My thinking here is that a lot of small arms went 'poof' with Doomsday - light weapons which are easily stolen, missed, or sold on the black market have a nasty habit of vanishing in like manner once order breaks down; many undoubtedly found their way into the pool of small arms which flooded the Eastern Turkish Wasteland during the era of multiple warlords. Therefore, even a force which inherited a sizable portion of the 11th Corps' inventory would come out deficient...keeping in mind that not the entire corps itself was hardly inherited intact (inevitable losses, straggling, desertion, defection to the provisional authorities at Konya, etc).


 * As for the heavier weapons which couldn't possibly disappear so easily, it might have conceivably been an easier job keeping them around. A few ex-11th Corps M47 Patton tanks and some armored personnel carriers could be maintained for the new Trabzon "Defense Force", and there was no shortage of recon-type scout cars in the pre-Doomsday Gendarmes. As stated in the article, attempts were also made to conscript modified civilian vehicles and commercial aircraft for military purposes. A limited amount of artillery could be stripped from coastal defenses, existing military installations, and attached support batteries on the Soviet front deployed during the border war. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 19:06, March 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * You're right; Trabzon's mechanized component has been largely reduced to light scout cars; hence, the emphasis on 'armoured cars' rather than 'tanks' during the invasion of Greater Patnos. In fact, tanks are only mentioned once in the text. It's possible that under present conditions the TDF would only be able to get five a hundred meters without breakdown. However, the country doesn't have the capital to buy a lot of heavy equipment. Therefore as time goes on they would place a greater emphasis on maintaining what they have - you'd be surprised what places necessity sometimes takes an army. There are plenty of bankrupt OTL countries that still depend heavily on castoffs from the '50s, '60s, even WWII, because they can't afford any better. As generous as Armenia, Georgia, and Greece may be, they wouldn't be handing Trabzon the cream of their crop without accepting some form of payment. And I doubt that the reigning emperor is an individual who especially likes going heavily into debt, given Trabzon's developing economic state.


 * More food for thought: the Pontic regions were some of the most undeveloped places in Turkey in 1983. No existing industrial capacity whatsoever. No self-sufficiency for manufactured goods. At least countries like Greece have inherited pre-Doomsday factories, equipment, resources. Trabzon would have to cut everything from the whole cloth. And it seems at the moment they're focusing on agriculture and at the most, uniforms. Arms and ammunition are still far-off goals - better to focus on expanding what you have, instead of being a 'jack of all trades' and master of none. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 17:21, April 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Very well. I've conceded to some renewed initiatives for the domestic production of some light military equipment, and added a tidbit which confirms Greece has been an open supplier of heavy weapons since 2006. My recent overhaul of the article was actually intended to increase its overall quality, rather than detract from such - I do hope in this I have at least partially succeeded. --Emperor of Trebizond (talk) 20:28, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

Question
Hey LG. I was hoping you could answer a few questions I have about my timeline:
 * So, without the American Revolution occuring, how would that affect Europe, as far the possibility of the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon.
 * Second, with British North America (the UPA) dominating most of North America, would the Russians sell Alaska to Britain, keep it, or ?
 * Third, would conflict between the UPA and Mexico (or New Spain) be inevitable?
 * Fourth question, how would a British dominated North America and no American Revolution affect the Spanish Empire.
 * Fifth and final question(s):
 * What would be the government of the United Provinces? Constitutional Monarchy or an democracy?
 * If a Constitution is drafted, would the Second Amendment be around in ATL?
 * Would the Imperial Federation be plauisible in this TL?
 * Would Hanover remain in a personal union with the United Kingdom? Enclavehunter (talk) 03:00, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why did you delete my list of presidents (president Dewey) thing?

Naming Conventions
I noticed that several of the "Night of the Living Alternate History" pages have been renamed by you from "Name (NotLAH)" to "Name (Night of the Living Alternate History)". Should I try to name pages this way in the future?

Mscoree (talk) 19:53, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
Early I left a message on the talk page of the TSPTF regarding recent vandalism of one of my pages. I'm not sure if I wrote in the right place so I'm bringing it to your attention here:

"Some user named 'Branbran64' has continuous vandalized the Night of the Living Alternate History (Map Game)page. His most recent attack has been posting 'Eddie ands jon r butthurt so much they cant walk 'cause they have full anuses' several hundred times. He has wrote several messages, including one that sexually harrassed another user, and he appears to not be done. If some one could ban him that would be great. Mscoree (talk) 01:02, March 30, 2013 (UTC)"

If there is anything you can do that would be much appreciate. Mscoree (talk) 01:42, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but what specifically was I doing that was spamming so I know not to do it in the future

I'm licensed to chill 20:04, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

You know its that time of year...
1 day away from April. The UIP better get testing some of its refitted MiG-21s ;)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:22, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

So what's gonna happen now. :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:50, April 1, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. So should we get started on the article? And would it all begin off by a MiG-21 being shot down over enemy territory, UIP sends troops for rescue-op, who get detected. Firefight ensures, UIP sends in reinforcements and boom! War begins? Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:49, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, got sidetracked watching How I met your Mother.

Hmm, I understand. Yet why were the UIP troops in the area anyway? So they launch the rescue attempt, get driven back, gain troop nos and launch a full fledged assult on the breakaways? :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:17, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Lol, it was ages ago and I kinda forgot. XD

Thanks for the reminder. I'll try and get to work on that article. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:42, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

Zimmermann
question what are the chances of the USA not getting involved in ww1 if germany didnt send the zimmermann telegraph and was willing to negotiate with the states on the topic of ending unrestricted submarine warfare. Nkbeeching (talk) 19:25, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

aright but is there any way to keep the USA out of ww1 maybe being out voted in the congress about getting into the war, sine their is no zimmermann telegram. Nkbeeching (talk) 13:16, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

ok then would it have atleast led to a longer debate on weither to join the war or not like ive put in my timeline which by would be effected by german gains hence convincing many to not want to het involved, if not ill redo the TL and start at another point. iwant to be plausible when i come up with a PoD tht keeps the americans out of the war.Nkbeeching (talk) 11:39, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

alright and if they decided to not restart unrestricted warfare and instead decided to focus submarine strikes on the britishnavy wold their be any way for them to force the allies to negotiations before U.S. forces could due anything major? Nkbeeching (talk) 13:25, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

question if the french mutinies become to bad as the germans push west could the central powers force a peace treaty on the allies before american aid becomes a dominant factor in the war effort, ill have them enter the war in the TL in early 1918 Nkbeeching (talk) 14:42, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

ok so only forcing the frenchout of the war with the units liberated from the eastern front before theamericans could get involvved is the only solutiob iguess. thanks for the heLP LG  Nkbeeching (talk) 11:25, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

sobasicly i have to scrap the TL nd look for another PoD that would keep the states out of the war. thts what i want  to do keep them out of the war and take the TL from there.Nkbeeching (talk) 12:26, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

ive set up another tl where the lusitania never sinks hopefully that will keep the usa out of the war for enough time as it would a large amounr of the population ambilavent towards germany and atleast half the population anti war by 1918Nkbeeching (talk) 10:41, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

alright ill read up s bit more and do ssome adjutments here and there and slowly work my way through the war to make itt plausible. thnks for the help btw Nkbeeching (talk) 12:57, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Computer problems
Hey, Lordganon, this might sound dumb, but I am having problems loading the links for a list of nations on Korean Invasion, 2012. Would you be able to add that? My computer sometimes gives me fits. :)Daeseunglim (talk) 12:16, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

Isiro
Due to some major problems with my time, my computer, and my internet, I haven't been active at all since the end of Feb. and that's probably going to continue till at least mid-April, so could you take over the Isiran Revolution bit, have the Mbias o'erthrown, etc? I should be back soon but I really don;t want to let it linger.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#000000 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#000000 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#FF0000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">           <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#0000ff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #ff0000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FFffff" face="Arial">"Very funny, Scotty.   <font color="#000000" face="Arial" title="Bvlog">Now beam down my clothes."  21:40, April 4, 2013 (UTC)

Re:TSPTF
Wow! That would be sweet. However, I do not know the amount of power I would yield or what exactly I would do (I could just end up as some dork who users end up giving tons of hate). Although if it meant saving the wiki and getting new users interested in TLs rather than map games, then I'm in. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:20, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I'd be honoured! I accept. :] -Kogasa  2013年4月05日 22:08:50 (JST)

Hi Lordqanon! Is it free to create an username?94.255.222.206 13:09, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Not bad. I think I might be able to stop a few more fights now :) And delete defunct map games. Although, if I got it wrong - could I bring back a page? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:16, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

No problem LG. Its all good. :'D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:24, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to accept that nomination, aren't I, btw. ;)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:25, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Right on it. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 10:45, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Facelift
Seeing as the UIP is in a better state to invest in its railways (which would by far be the most common method for transportation) and seeing that the cities would be no where near as urbanised as OTL, could we have the UIP commissioning the laying of electric lines (I'm not sure if they were in place in 1983) and the designing of new train engines? India today still uses old ones, unfortunately and this would be something interesting.

They would be used to link up all the major cities in UIP control as well as make it easier to transport coal from Orissa to the rest of the nation. It might also serve to begin the process of urbanisation of the UIP after all these years. We coul have like a competition for the prize, so like we might find homegrown designs as well as a few ANZC companes pitching in to show off their designs. The requirements would be pretty tight as we will have to assume the UIP will not be able to spare that much cash. However, it would still be quite a lucrative project post-DD. Your thoughts?

Timescale-wise, we would have to backtrack to March, and I would expect the construction of the chosen design to begin in the fall of this year (early estimate) to the opening of next year (later estimate).

On another note, would this pic of the Lotus Temple in Dehli be suitable for the New Parliament Building in Bombay. I find it classy. The Lotus Temple itself took 6 years to be completed, finishing in 1986. As DD happened in '83,  I'd trust this building would probably be destroyed in the chaos. Maybe it could be the inspiration for the new Parliament building?

On another note, I plan to create articles on a few companies in India, if that is alright (will have the proposal template on it). This will include HAL and Tata Motors. Fine with you? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:13, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, ok. But eventually the UIP is gonna realise they need better trains. Do you have any idea when this might happen? It might be a good chance for the UIP to encourage competition to help blossom the numbers of intelletuals designing trains and stuff.

But I really would like a different purpose for this building. A temple doesn't quite suit such a design. The windows make it look like some sort of parliament building (they do, don't they?).

Ok then. Thanks. I might begin work on it after Operation Dissolution (like the name, lol). :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:03, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Wabash-Superior contact
Yeah, LG, just the title says, what's a plausible date for contact between Wabash and Superior? Godfrey Raphael (talk) 13:49, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, LG! Godfrey Raphael (talk) 12:51, April 7, 2013 (UTC)

Korean Invasion: 2012
LG, thanks for adding that category!

Would it be plausable for NATO to unintentionally drag Russia into the war by unintentionally bombing several convoys of Russian owned warships that were headed to protect Vladivstok. NATO was led to believe by jarbled transmissions that they were headed to hit US aircraft carrier formations. Also, the war is going to turn nuclear through miscommunication between North Korean missile operatives and Kim Jong Un. Thanks for your help Daeseunglim (talk) 22:21, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

LG, the page I was working on got deleted. Any idea what happened? Thanks Daeseunglim (talk) 15:14, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, could you tell me the name, or put it on the nuclear homepage, because I am having problems finding it. If I type it in all that comes up is either DD: 1983, or something on Korea in another timeline. Daeseunglim (talk) 14:30, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for that. I remember. Did u see that to expain why Cheyenne survived? I was planning on also saying that NORAD was hit by a bunker buster cluster bomb and the city was hit by conventional weapons from Russia. Russia and China both got involved unintentionally. Daeseunglim (talk) 20:05, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry about that LG...I looked that up. I forgot that Cheyenne Mt is located outside of Colorado Springs...Thanks for pointing that out. I also found that NORAD moved command to Peterson AFB in 2006, with Cheyenne Mt. as backup if things ever went too hot. I would assume that NORAD would move back to Cheyenne quickly because NORAD's website says that Cheyenne Mt. is kept garrisoned for emergency purposes.Daeseunglim (talk) 12:20, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Iwaschris
Sorry to bother you, but I wanted to get your opinion on Iwaschris. I have been noticing that he has been doing a large amount of article creating and image uploading. But much of the articles he is creating are about people, but the information on them is no more informative to the timeline than on Wikipedia. In fact, one of the articles is on Eduard Khil, which nothing distinct for that timeline anywhere on that page. Wouldn't this be a case of recreating Wikipedia? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:58, April 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. I thought that rule also applied to articles which convey a similar history to OTL. While I missed the part where it refers to the USSR still existing, the whole paragraph seems to be a direct copy from Wikipedia. But if you have no problem with this, than I don't. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:08, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

Napoleon's World
I apologize if I did so so. However it was not my intention to do so, nor did I notice the leader names being removed from the infoboxes when I made the edits. Razgriz 2K9 (talk) 11:42, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Infoboxes/Publishing
Your watchful eye over the wiki is appreciated, as always.

Thank you! Well, I'm self publishing. Epic science fiction isn't the easiest genre to land an agent for, so I'm doing the Kindle Direct route with this book while I work on my Cold War thriller. Not sure I've ever seen the wiki announcements page but that sounds great, one more marketing tool.

KingSweden (talk) 00:59, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Spelling
Yep, just as I thought. ^.^  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 14:31, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Archiving
I received your message about archiving the talk page for Night of the Living Alternate History. I think I did it correctly, but you can double check if you wish. How often should I archive in the future? Mscoree (talk) 14:17, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Dutch in "13"
Glad to hear that it pretty much works out. With Europe done, I have been pondering how the other imperial powers would handle their colonies (in light of a successful United Commonwealth). The Dutch seemed easy to figure out in a day, so I started with them. I would also suspect the French, Portuguese, and Spanish to follow a similar path (Spain keeps Puerto Rico, after all). I also remember you mentioning that the Prussians would [still] get Cameroon (IIRC), but I will leave other (if any) Prussian African colonies up for debate when I begin the discussion on Africa (I probably will save that for later, and start South America pretty soon).

I had a feeling Indonesia would be divided up. Aside from "divide and conquer," it makes sense. Still not too sure how it would be divided up. From what I can make of it at the moment, I have five states, all based on the main island groups. I will probably do more reading on it soon.

Can't say I am surprised that the Dutch don't keep Ghana, but nothing to worry about. This would definitely solve the problem I was having with "why would the Dutch keep most of their colonies, but still sell the Antilles?" LOL

"Quibble"? I just learned a new word. Sorry to hear that the Antarctica idea won't work, but you are right that this part of the continent is worthless in comparison to the rest. Just thought that the distance from South Africa, and the fact that SA did show interest in making a claim. But nothing to worry about.

Norway is part of Denmark. If the Norwegians still want to go exploring in the region, than I don't see any reason why Denmark wouldn't make a claim. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:51, April 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * You haven't been on in a couple of days, I truly hope you are okay (I got over the flu a few weeks ago, so just want to be sure).


 * I intend to start a thread for South America in a few days or so, and my map is (more or less) done. However, I have been thinking about what you said, and I was wondering if I could get some clarification.


 * You mentioned that pretty much all of Spain's colonial possessions in the Americas gain independence by the 1880s/90s. My question would be simple: why? While it seems obvious that the Revolutions of the 1820s would have happened, the difference is that no war in Europe allows Spain to crush them (with the exception of Louisiana and the Floridas). If this be the case, wouldn't Spain take more steps to prevent dissidence in the future? With Spain getting luck to keep them, combined with the success of the British to form an Imperial Federation; wouldn't there be some support to remain Spanish?


 * Or am I looking at it wrong. That with more centuries of development (in comparison with the British), that a sense of "American" existed among the Viceroyalties? That Spain would remain slow (if at all) to initiate change, that it would be too late to act by the 1880s?


 * I am merely curious as to you coming out with this outcome. I have no intentions of changing them so they don't become independent (I support the New Netherlander Empire). However (aside from Puerto Rico [which I am more in favor of having them remain Spanish]), wouldn't their be other territories which remained (aside from Africa). I am aware that Peru was pretty loyalist during the 1820s. Do you believe this would change decades down the line? I truly hope you don't mind me asking. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:53, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Quite surprised to see you on so early. Safe to assume everything is alright on your end? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:11, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * You were definitely longer than usual. But as long as you don't have the flu or anything like that, than no need to worry. I can understand, after looking at the recent uploads long enough it can get confusing.


 * Glad to see that the French and Portuguese would do so. Though how they do it I am a little fuzzy on. Since France OTL is solid (in regards to the United Commonwealth), do you think they would do the same here. As to what areas remain, I will get along to that eventually. Also (because I have been thinking this lately), do you think some parts of Algeria may remain part of France? I believe some of the Pied-Noirs wanted some sort of arrangement like this.


 * Definitely right about their treatment of their colonies, though I would have assumed some changes would have occurred after almost loosing them. Never really crossed my mind that Spain truly saw the creoles as just natives. That would definitely change the stakes.


 * I will worry about Africa more when I get to it. Though depending on how Portugal is structured will I decide whether they keep their colonies or allow them independence. I wanted to leave this open when I do South America soon, but I have another Brazil question. I am aware that one of the reasons Brazil stayed together was because the royals moved there and even lead them to independence. Without Napoleon, the royals would remain in Europe. Simply put, would there be any reason for Brazil to remain in tact? I do know some of the northern regions attempted to separate OTL. Do you think Brazil would be smaller states?


 * A little disappointed that Indonesia is going to be more difficult than I realized. LOL. So eight "dominions", two "sultanates", and two independent nations. Sounds okay. Should I consider the sultanates to be similar to Hyperabad and such in India? My only question would be why Jakarta would be a dominion? Other than that, I believe I have understanding on.


 * If you don't mind me asking, what sources do you use to get your ancestral data? I generally look at Geni (when available). But thank you for your help on much of them. The only thing I have to add is that you have answered my prayers with Ross Perot. I have been debating whether I would find any worthy Louisianans for here, and Perot seems to be one. So thank you so much for that. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:08, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Glad to hear it.

France sounds alright with me. I believe it is safe to say that the regions France has OTL would be included, but other than that I am not completely sure. Glad to hear that parts of Algeria could be included. I will have to look into this more.

So Brazil would remain united, eh? Very different from what I thought would've been the case. Just as a second question, would Brazil gain independence around the same time as the Hispanic republics (around the 1880s), or would it be different?

I thought we had an understanding that Indonesia would be divided up into separate dominions (similar to India). But I guess I could have misunderstood you, and that you were only referring to the separation of Aceh and Papua. I was thinking it would be divided up, much like how the Brits divided into into several dominions. However, I guess it could be argued that the main reasons Hyperabad (etc.) was separated from India was because they were not colonies (more so "protectorates" and the like). If you think Indonesia can last as a single dominion, then I don't have anything against it, aside from it now having me re-shuffle my brain. Though I have a trivial question if this be the case, what would it be called? Would "East Indies" remain, or would "Indonesia" be adopted?

That is pretty much what I do, glad to see that I am on the right track.

Well I was getting worried that I would have had to make up people for Louisiana, which I don't want to do (especially with the luck I have had with OTL politicians in ATL). But with this, I feel confident that I may be able to come up with a list some point in the future. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:45, April 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you telling me Brazil would still become a monarchy?


 * I have updated my map of Indonesia, and I do agree that it being divided would better suit the region (especially because it is an archipelago). Since it is divided, my question regarding its name is not moot; though I agree "East Indies" would remain as a collective term.


 * Well thank you, but you don't have to go to too much trouble. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 05:30, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Wait... Brazil would still establish a monarchy? How can that be? If my understanding is correct, the fact that the royals relocated to Brazil for a a few decades helped stir support among the royals (especially Prince Pedro) and the Brazilian people to gain independence via a monarchy. No Napoleon, no relocation and no establishing Brazil as an equal kingdom. How would a monarchy be established here?

As long as I am not impeding you. I do thank you for your suggestions. However, I have my doubts that Jindal took much research to figure out. LOL. Also thank you for your other suggestions. However, I would like to relook at a few candidates (especially since I have had them canon in other areas).

Colin Powell I have as the VP for George W. Bush in New Netherland. Given that his parents emigrated from Jamaica, I would still believe that there is as much a chance he would be New Netherlander as he would be Jamaican (kinda like Jindal). If you have no objections, I think I would prefer to leave him as a VP.

Joe Biden's family appears to be split, with his father's side being Marylander and his mother's Pennsylvanian. Given the closeness of Maryland and Pennsylvania (and the fact that Biden hails from Delaware in many regards), I believe he would have as much chances being Pennsylvanian here as Marylander. I think I will stick with PA.

Those are the only two I have any issue with (given that they have been canonized as part of other nations), but I look forward to your response. The only other person I may have an issue with is Joe Lieberman, primarily because I got your message only hours after I placed him as a potential president for New England (did you decide to look him up because I posted that?). Given that one side is Austrian/Polish, and the other side is New Englander (Connecticut), he may also be a variable (though I agree that New Netherland may still be the preferred port for immigration ATL). But since he has not been canonized anywhere, I don't have as much of an issue with him as the previous two.

My only comments to the others has to be that now I can now imagine Sarah Palin hunting moose in Maine. I also swore that Dick Chaney would have been New Englander, though I could be mistaken with my original research of Thomas E. Dewey. Now I have a hankering to potentially make Chaney a president of Virginia. I also swore Ron Paul would've been Pennsylvanian, but nothing to worry about. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:59, April 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * I am still confused as to Brazil still becoming a monarchy, though I can slightly understand. If a peaceful-ish separation takes place, how close would the two kingdoms be? I am also curious (but I believe I already know your answer to be "no"), with the success of imperial federations ATL, what would be the chances of some type of forming later on (like the late 1800s or at all). Also (because I is a republican ;P), how common was it for a monarchy to split between two countries (primarily in Europe I mean).

Never quite though about that (Jindal-wise). I still find it odd (OTL) that immigrants from India would decide to move to "open and tolerant" south. Also glad to hear that Powell can work out.

Biden's family is quite confusing. As tempting as it may be to have another candidate for Maryland, I may want to let it sink in for a bit (though I still prefer PA).

You seriously didn't notice it? Talk about coincidences. Either way, nothing against Lieberman being from NY, just more shocked that I just put him in NE and then you came around. LOL. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:21, May 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well I guess friendly relations between the two is better than war and chaos. Am I also to assume that Brazil remains a monarchy to this day, or would they fall into a republic (much like OTL). I also have to wonder how the Carolinian-Brazilian relations would be throughout this time period (especially since they would be the last two nations to abolish slavery).


 * One of Billy Joel's songs is called "It's Still Rock and Roll to Me", and this is all I can think about when you mentioned a moderate Louisiana. No matter how moderate Louisiana may be, it's still the South to me. XP Jokes aside, here that obviously wouldn't be an issue ATL.


 * I will do some more reading on him and come up with an idea some point down the line. Given that he is Catholic, Maryland may be interesting. If you remember our conversation about John Edwards, Biden was actually my "temporary president" for PA (before I finalized Hillary). I was also considering that he would have been President of PA in the 1990s (given that he did run in '88 IIRC).


 * Still shocked you didn't even notice that. Oh well, doesn't matter now. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:08, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Sounds okay to me. Now I find it more odd to have a monarchy in the Americas (or rather an independent monarchy). It also just crossed my mind, but not too sure. Given that Rio de la Plata does fight for independence (but still looses) and Brazil remains loyalist (in many ways), do you think Brazil may be able to gain (i.e., Uruguay).

Yep, I have been considering that Maryland would be more Catholic ATL. In fact, it was this fact that pushed the Dutch residents of Delaware (at the time) to favor the Quakers of Pennsylvania over becoming part of Catholic Maryland. So it was Catholicism that gave us Delaware. Now that it has sunk it, I may very well indeed have Biden be Marylander. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 14:58, May 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait a second, you think Uruguay would still gain independent here? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:59, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Wow! Nothing against it, I just didn't really consider it gaining independence here (due to Argentina possibly keeping much of its original territory).

I have uploaded a map of South America and started a conversation. I am sure there will be some problems. I look forward to your two cents. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:16, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

I need some of your advices 2
Yesterday, I asked Nuke about some questions regarding Nazi Germany and the World War II. He gave some good basic points but he said me to ask you for more specific answers. Here it is some of my few and short questions: FirstStooge (talk) 04:23, April 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) What is the impact of the non-existence/premature death of Hitler and the Nazi leadership of Gregor Strasser?
 * 2) With Strasser as the fuhrer, there is any possibility for Nazi Germany to reduce its hostility toward the USSR?
 * 3) With Strasser as the fuhrer, Germany became less invasive and less brutal (unless toward the Jews)?
 * 4) Could I made the establishment of Israel as the political agreement between Germany and the United Kingdom?
 * 5) Any ways to prevent the United States and/or the Soviet Union for getting directly involved in World War II?
 * 6) If Germany making peace with the Soviet Union earlier, how does the war end? Is through a sort of "Paris Peace Conference" or something?

Re: Graduating Articles
How I always forget this, I'll never know. Sorry about that. Vladivostok (talk) 12:47, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

You labbled my page ASB. What is ASB. If it is bad what can i do to improve it? Octivian Marius (talk) 00:30, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Zheng China
Hellor Lordganon, or LG, this is Hlanus. I am trying to fix the Zheng China timeline, but I have a partner who keeps getting ahead of me. He's the creator of the Dual Expedition (Zheng China) page, and he's the one who set up the war between China and South India. I had no idea what that was about until you pointed it out, so thanks for brining it to my attention. I read the page on deleting content, but I am not sure if I can. I tried telling him to stop and slow down, but he keeps ignoring me. As an administrator, what should I do? Hlanus (talk) 14:21, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Here's the problem as I see it. Zhu Gaoxi is at this point pretty hell bent on ceasing the voyages, and the Confucians are well-behind him. The Treasure Fleet voyages cost a lot of money and the coincidence of several natural disasters, like floods and famine, convince the Chinese that Heaven wants the fleets to cease. With all this in mind, I can't see a reason why Zhu Gaoxi would suddenly change his mind and allow them to persist. The only thing I could come up with that was even slightly plausible was if he died in a freak accident right after his order, which would appear to be Heaven's judgement on him. The only other thing would have been if his half-brother launched a coup, but that would have led to civil war and China would have been weakened, not strengthened.

The only other thing I have is if the Yongle Emperor invested in the fleet only and not his other projects, which were part of his plan to bloster his legitimacy, seeing as he took the throne from his nephew with the help of the eunuchs, for which he awarded them tremendous, even unprecedented, influence, which the Confucians resented. With all this in mind, how else could the Chinese have preserved the fleets and maintained their role in trade?

While other dynasties, such as the Song Dynasty, were more into trade and more open to it, I can not find any references to the Zheng surname until the Ming, unless I create one, but that idea has already been used. So am I wasting my time with this? 68.231.174.243 03:17, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Sorry about that. Still a little inexperienced. Well, the thing is is that during the Song Dynasty, the Chinese, even the Confucians, were more open to trade because they were running out of land to farm, especially with the conquest of the north by the Jin Dynasty. The Ming rebelled against the Mongols by trying to restore classic Confucian ideals, which were reinterpreted during the Song to argue for the expansion rather than inhibition of trade because it was easier than taxing the people, who often were overtaxed by the rich. I was wondering if over time the Confucians, especially with newer generations, would agree to that line of reasoning again if the fleets could more expediently help the Chinese people than the traditional methods. 68.231.174.243 04:27, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Perhaps with time and experience, they will come to change. I have a question. You mentioned that the Chinese could have reached Europe albeit at a smaller scale. Would that have meant going around the Cape, or through Egypt? I am thinking of the Emperor sending a scouting party of no more than ten ships around the African coast to scout ahead. If all else fails, then he should establish a trading presence in Egypt, which is the closest China can get to Europe without rounding the Cape, if I am correct.

Just a word, regarding the "Easternized World" timeline, we see the Chinese suddenly exploding out of China to conquer a huge empire. I know my timeline is different, taking place after China has suffered a few blows, but would not the problems of unity and Confucian ideals have stopped the Chinese in that timeline as well? I just want to know to what degree that timeline and mine are comparable. 68.231.174.243 05:11, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Could the Chinese have established a presence at the Cape? I suppose no, but I want to be sure. At this point, they are simply exploring the possibilities. If they can, then maybe they will establish a kind of presence in India, though I do not see how it could be in the NW, as the only way to get there is up the Indus, or through the Mongol tribes, Khanates, and the Tibetan Plateau. Maybe south India would be better? Zheng He did act as a diplomat there and he had something of a reputation as an excellent diplomat.

As for that expansion for expansion's sake, could that work here too? Or am I making connections where none exist? Perhaps frame the trade voyages and potential colonies as means to expansion over land, by filling the coffers for training and breeding cavalry. 68.231.174.243 06:07, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Sorry slip of the finger. Here's the post:

I see, thanks for the clarification. I know I need to make this plausible, but there is one little thing I want to do: in otl, Zhu Gaoxi, the Yongle Emperor's second son, was noted to be a brilliant tactical thinker and military man, and I want to give him a chance to shine in my timeline. I figure the Chinese shore up their treasury, reform their army (perhaps incorporating the policies of Yue Fei or someone like him), and launch a campaign to end the Mongol threat, probably not now but much later. I figure that if they cut spending to the minimum and conduct trade overseas with multiple partners, they should have enough within 30 years or so. Would that be a reasonable amount of time? 68.231.174.243 08:50, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

A little update. I have Zheng He in charge of four ships and they have reached the Cape, but he is considering turning back due to the currents. I want to send him forward, but that is probably too risky. You think he would choose prudence over adventure as I do, or am I undermining him? 68.231.174.243 09:00, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I think after this I'll get some sleep.

I kinda figure that if the Chinese can incorporate the Mongols somehow, as they did in "Easternized World", then they would have a tremendous advantage as they would have the Mongols working WITH them instead of AGAINST them. Also, when I look at the map, the only real solution to the Ming's northern frontier is conquest. I doubt they can withdraw any further without risking a resurrection of the Golden Horde (Genghis Khan's army), and the maintenance of the border was a constant financial drain. How did the Manchus win over the Mongols, besides waiting for them and the Ming to wear each other down that is? Perhaps the Chinese could implement their methods as well? 68.231.174.243 09:04, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I'll see if I can incorporate the Manchu's methods with my timeline, though they are already playing the tribes against each other, backing the Oirats against the others. Perhaps when Esen Taishi takes over, that will be China's opportunity to make the other tribes allies, perhaps even their vassels, but that is for later.

I have in some ways fixed the first page, "China's Accension", but it is not an accurate title for the page. Can I rename it? I am sure I can, but I am unsure how. 68.231.174.243 20:29, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Ignore the last request about renaming please, I figured it out. Anyway, I am figuring that if the Mongols proceed as they do otl, they will unite under Esen Taishi, or at least the Western tribes will. If they are in conflict with the eastern ones, that could provide China the opportunity to recruit them as allies and possibly defeat Esen in a decisive campaign, and perhaps force his empire to acknowledge China's supremacy. Is that a realistic plan? Hlanus (talk) 20:37, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Hello, Hlanus again. I think I may have a problem. My PoD is that the Hongwu Emperor's brother takes over after his death, but according to Ming Dynasty order of succession, it should be the son of the Emperor who takes over, not the brother. The problem is that not ALL of the Emperor's sons die, and some of them have sons as well, which means we could have a succession crisis, especially with the Confucian opposition. Should I just change it so that the brother becomes a regent instead and his nephew takes over? Hlanus (talk) 05:42, April 28, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Could not the more reactionary scholars argue that as his nephew survived the fire that killed most of his immediate family that he was somehow blessed by Heaven and hence had more right to rule? Anyway, I am guessing that they will have some support from the more reactionary members, they will attempt a takeover, the Emperor, using his father's secret police, will lay a trap, their forces will be "subdued", and the sons and their heirs will be killed. I am wondering if this is too draconian, as it MAY cost him the support of the Confucians, who prefer using virtue rather than force to govern. Hlanus (talk) 15:21, April 28, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Hello, its me again. I took care of that succession crisis. BTW, do you have any information on the descendants of Zheng He's older brother, Ma Wenming. From the little I could gather, Ma Wenming had a son, Enlai, who was adopted by Zheng He, giving him the name Zheng Enlai. He in turn had two sons, Wanxian and Tingxian. I just want to know if this information is indeed correct, because I know that Zheng He himself had no male heirs, being castrated at age 11. Really appreciate all your help. Have a good one.Hlanus (talk) 03:20, April 30, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I know Zheng He died in 1433 in otl, but remember that he was on the seventh voyage, which has to be stressful on a man of his years. I figured if he travelled a smaller distance he might have lived longer, though ten years IS pushing it. Plus eunuchs have longer lifespans than ordinary men as they do not invest at all in reproduction, some living up to ten years longer, though with all the stress he's been under, I doubt that would have had THAT much impact. I will correct it very soon. As for the city, I know Surat was NOT the capital, but I figured the Chinese would want to stick to the sea in case negotiations went sour, so to say. I started with Diu, but I wasn't sure, so I will use it. And I will correct the Mongol campaign soon, though I am somewhat stuck on the peace negotiations. In otl, Esen had to accept less favorable conditions as he failed to defeat the Chinese decisively. Here, he is defeated again, but the treaty is complicated, as his defeat and eventual death destablized the Oirat Khanate and they soon resumed infighting, so any attempt at a permanent peace treaty would be folly. I figured the best is for Esen to resume tributary status, with horses being part of the tribute, and perhaps a sister/daughter as a bride for the Emperor's son to bloster his power over the Western tribes, as that region is vital to the overland Silk Road. This is all speculation for the time being though so please stay in touch. Hlanus (talk) 03:59, May 1, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I am basing the naming of the chimpanzees and gorillas based on what the Chinese in otl called them. As for their inland journey, I am going on the premise that they travelled up the river. While their ships could not get up river, their boats and the locals probably could.

By "building a town" are you referring to the cape? I was thinking along the lines of a port for repairing and receiving ships with the town to support that. Also, I never said that they would build it on their next voyage, or even within the next century. Zheng Tingxian is just trying to keep his options open here, but he will have a dickens of a time trying to convince the court that the cape is worth building as a colony.

As for the Portuguese, I am not sure how reliable their information is, as it is based on rumors, and MAYBE Marco Polo's descriptions of his travels to the Yuan Dynasty. If anyone in Portugal actually travelled to China, then they would probably have a mre factually based vision of what China is like. By my research, otl, the Portuguese would reach the Indian Ocean in the late 1400s and they would reach Ming China in 1513 via Jorge Alvares. I don't know if the Portuguese or any European made it to Ming China overland before this, so my ASSUMPTION based on my knowledge is that they have grown up hearing the stories of Marco Polo and his fantastic descriptions of China during the Yuan Dynasty.

Thanks for the feedback. Will look over the timeline. Hlanus (talk) 14:51, May 4, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

As for Zheng Tingxian, I have him on the central west coast of Africa near the Benin Empire (under King Euware if I am not mistaken) and he has a choice of going all the way to Europe or turning back for China. You think he has the means to keep going? Hlanus (talk) 19:39, May 4, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I will make the corrections. Just a few things: I did some research on the Swahili and Yoruba languages and, if I am reading it right both belong to the Niger-Congo language family, which means that they have SOME similarities, akin to Irish and Hindi, both being Indo-European languages. Maybe the differences are too great for that.

As for the Portuguese, I figured that since they have never seen China before and are relying on second-hand accounts, like Marco Polo, I think they would have PERCEIVED a large gap, because Marco Polo describes China (under the Yuan Dynasty) as being very large and wealthy, though of course he was exaggerating in certain areas. If the only source you have are rumors and second-hand accounts like this, I wonder how they could have known about their advantage against the Chinese. Plus the turbulent times in Europe, including the Fall of Constantinople and the ongoing wars in the Balkans and elsewhere, indicating an expansion of Islam against Christianity, are (I think) going to make some a little jumpier than they would otherwise, and in times of stress the extremists become more agreeable.

As for the whole Africa thing, I will modify it to include a partial map of Africa based on Arab maps of the Mediterranean and their own charts of exploration. Would this fuel further voyages of exploration? Or would the Chinese be content with just this? Also as for the Oyo, I think I will have the Portuguese bypass them, if they are undergoing rough times. Or would the Portuguese take that chance?

As for the River, would the Chinese name it Great River as the local do, or would they transliterate their pronounciation? Thanks for the feedback. Hlanus (talk) 16:36, May 5, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

One other thing: I have the Portuguese navy hiring themselves out as privateers to the Italians, partly to bring in more revenue and give their navy more battle experience (and to keep the extremists out of Afonso's hair, so to say). IF this did happen, how would the Ottoman-Venice War have been different? Would the Ottomans pull out to protect their assets from this new threat, possibly (however remotely) seeking a peace with Italy to give them time to upgrade their navy? Probably if they suffered enough losses, but I am not sure.

Also, I found a reference to a Turkish Crusade in 1481, but I am having trouble finding out more. Was this just a fancy title slapped onto a minor skirmish or conflict, like much of the Crusades after the Third one? Or am I really off the mark? I am asking because from what I have read, the Ottoman wars in Europe are slowing down in the mid 1470s and they are shifting their attention to Mesopotamia and Persia to fight the Aq Qoyunlu.

Finally, around the 1480s, in otl Dayan Khan arises to reunite the Mongols. As Esen is still alive at this time, albeit at advanced age, would this have sparked a Mongol Civil War? Would the Chinese try to capitalize on this, try to support Esen as an ally, or just keep their eye on them for unexpected developments? I think they would fluctuate between the second and third, as these are cheaper than the first and they need to keep Esen's friendship to prevent the rise of a powerful Mongolia, and abandoning him would turn him against them, unless they were too busy elsewhere.

Really appreciate all this, and sorry for my inital reaction when you began pointing out the problems. Have a good one. Hlanus (talk) 17:31, May 5, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Just a few clarifications: "The other Muslim states would not do that". I am guessing that this refers to the decision to remain neutral in Portugal's conflict with the Ottomans. Would they ecnomically support the Ottomans, or just remain neutral albeit on the lookout for trouble, like Catherine the Great and the League of Armed Neutrality during the American Revolution?

Also, I clarified the distance issue. It is just that some are more xenophobic than others in Portugal and they're exaggerating to get support, as I have Diogo Gomes shut down in my timeline.

Speaking of distance, is the reason the Chinese are not entering Portugal's radar due to the distance between them.

Also, I came across something called the War of Castilian Succession, which occurred between 1475 and 1479 where a Portuguese offensive into "Spain" was described due to a political marriage between Afonso V of Portugal and Joana la Beltraneja of Castile. I am asking because I am wondering how this war would affect Portugal's navy. I know that the Spanish and Portuguese fleets would fight a war in the Atlantic, and I am guessing that the Portuguese would enjoy more decisive victories due to their recent naval upgrades, though whether the Spanish were able to keep up with these is an unknown factor in my calculations.

Finally "they would not bypass the Oho", you mean "Oyo" and are describing the Chinese I presume. Just want to be sure. As for their additional voyages, I am describing more the hopes of particular people than the policies of China. The court is content for the moment about their level of trade and are not terribly keen on potential overextension, due to the memory of the Yongle Emperor, and the stirrings in the north. It will probably be until after the 1500s that the Chinese decide to go exploring the wide oceans just for the heck of it.

Hlanus (talk) 15:28, May 6, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

So with Castile's navy torn up even more from the war, and Columbus's calculations being WAY off, would he received any support for his trans-Atlantic voyage? I suppose not much, because he went to a lot of places BEFORE Castile, and even they took some convincing (though I'm beginning to suspect they indulged him PARTIALLY to get him out of their hair). With Castile's navy torn up, they'll need to spend a lot of time recovering and Columbus would probably have to wait longer for Castile to recover, because virtually all the other sea-going nations, from Portugal to England to Venice and Genoa, rejected him. Which means that the discovery of the Americas via Columbus would have to be delayed atl by a few years.

Hlanus (talk) 15:40, May 7, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Here's my projected vision of Europe in the future: the War of Castilian Succession will end largely the same date and same way in terms of peace treaties. The Castilians will take a few years, say three to six,rebuilding their fleet, so Portugal should have the North African trade largely to themselves in that time. The time and money invested in the navy should allow the Portuguese to enter the Indian Ocean earlier than otl, while for the Castilians it should take longer to complete the Reconquista, meaning the Kingdom of Granada, as Navarra is in the midst of a civil war, so it should collapse earlier. At the same time, Columbus should give up on Castile as it does not have the time or money for him, so he'll head back for England, the country with (from what I can see) the best economic resources to finance him. It'll take longer for him to reach the English, though I suspect that they will be more cooperative, just to get rid of him. I estimate that the Reconquista of Spain and Columbus's voyages should occur around 1495, with maybe a few months difference in-between.

BTW, where do you get all this info? If I had it, I probably would not have made as many mistakes with this timeline as I did. Thanks for the feedback.

Hlanus (talk) 05:41, May 8, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I know. The new bullets I think were too effective for the depicted battle: my guess was that they would have a noticeable advantage in range and accuracy due to their more aerodynamic shape, but not by much, due to the lack of rifling in the guns and their relatively short barrel length (which is why sniper rifles tend to have noticeable longer barrels than the ones issued to regular foot soldiers). I figured the Chinese would figure out the new shape and apply it more to their field and ship cannons, and once they receive matchlocks, probably from Portugal, then they would adopt this shape to their handguns and long firearms. Also, much of the battle does not make sense, and I am trying to rectify it, but it has been a busy day for me. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Hlanus (talk) 02:40, May 11, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I just figured the Chinese would look further into it until they received matchlocks, though I am wondering which route the matchlocks would arrive from. In otl, they received matchlocks from the Portuguese, though I read on wikipedia that the Ottomans had matchlocks in the 1440s, and I (briefly) thought they could have travelled eastward into Persia and the Mongol Khanates, exposing the Chinese but without convincing them to immediately adopt them as standard military equipment, though this was probably derailed by the Ottomans high trade prices and the fractious situation of Central Asia in the mid- and late-15th Century. Hlanus (talk) 03:32, May 11, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Just a passing fancy of mine as I indicated. Anyway, I have an idea of how to end the Mongol conflict: after a few decisive victories over Dayan Khan, the Chinese pressed Amasanj to open talks. In the talks, they propose that Dayan Khan rule over the Khalka/Eastern Mongols while Amasanj rules over the Oirats. The talks are timed to keep both "khans" of relatively equal strength, with Amasanj dependent on the Chinese. Also, in this timeline, when should the Portuguese reach the Indian Ocean? I am guessing earlier than in otl, though they might establish trade just marginally earlier than otl, or so I guess. Hlanus (talk) 04:11, May 11, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for the feedback. BTW, you mentioned that Christopher Columbus's brother as a possible "discoverer" of the Americas. I tried to find him, but I found several. I think the best candidate would be Bartholomew as he was in France, which is a relatively short trip to England or the Netherlands. He might be able to convince someone to fund his voyages to try and bypass Portugal (as well as get him to shut up). This is just my best guess, but I am thinking that Britian would probably be the better candidate as the Netherlands were ruled by the Habsburgs and France was tied up in the Italian War of 1494-1498, where Charles VIII was fighting against the Holy Roman Empire in Italy. Let me know if this is wrong or mistaken. Hlanus (talk) 17:35, May 11, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

OK. If I understand you correctly, Christopher Columbus will continue trying to talk the monarchs of Castile and Aragon into his plan, while Bartholomew works in France and England to try and persuade them. If/when he persuades Henry VII, he'll send for Christopher and he'll make the voyage on England's behalf.

In the meantime, I have Portugal reaching India, specifically Diu, in the early 1480s. They'll open trade soon enough, no later than 1488, as you said. When they do, they'll discover the relative lack of interest in European goods save gold and silver as well as their military edge. They will probably turn back to organize a more battle-appropriate fleet then return near 1490 to "persuade" the locals to their point of view, showing the Ming their military weakness and convincing them to pull ahead. I figure that as China has more trading posts and a more "extroverted" approach than otl, they'll feel the Portuguese power sooner and stronger than otl. This will motivate them to improve their weapons, probably by buying (indirectly) matchlocks from the Portuguese as well as to find a means to bypass them, leading them to discover the western coasts of the Americas, thought probably around the 1510s or so. Hlanus (talk) 04:06, May 12, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I may be speeding things again with the timetable. Perhaps if the Chinese hear about the silver in the New World, then they will be interested because otl they had huge demand for silver but refused to open local mines for fear of them falling into private hands. I am guessing that merchants would be the first to venture, seeking profit, and if they see it and tell the Emperor, then there will be a national interest. For now, the Chinese are content and are not looking for trouble or new discoveries. I said that there won't be voyages of exploration for the heck of it for a while, probably concurrent with those of the Europeans.

Speaking of which, how would the Chinese get their matchlocks from the Europeans? I doubt the Portuguese are going to just hand them over, and trading might be stretching it. Probably through back channels such as local Indian merchants, but I could be wrong. Also, otl, the Portuguese do start taking over parts of Asia when they become more established, and when they took over Malacca, the Chinese immediately took action. With China's interests stretched to India and elsewhere, would they not feel the Portuguese earlier and take action earlier? Hlanus (talk) 05:10, May 12, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I figured that after nearly 100 years of commercial expansion, the Chinese would perceive things differently. The Confucians that criticized the fleets are dead and their views marginalized by their attempted coup against the Emperor. Chinese merchants are one of the Empire's chief sources of revenue, and with her extensive reach into, and grasp onto, the maritine spice and silk trades, I figured China would be heading at least partially into a different direction. Still too soon, or not enough need yet?

BTW, "That's why China hated it". What did China hate? Having to deal with foreigners? I know that one of the Confucian objections to trade and colonization, and indeed the Treasure Fleets, was that if China needed something from abroad, then it indicated that she was not self-sufficient and thus lacking something as a nation and a society. Is that what you meant? Hlanus (talk) 07:41, May 12, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

So then what could Zheng Jun and his cohorts have safely done? I am trying to have them prepared somewhat for the confrontation with Portugal, akin to otl but the court, as I have said, are pretty laidback, with the settlement of the Mongols and the rich returns from the trade. Also, with the Portuguese so far away, so to say, they see no real reason to prepare. I figured if Zheng Jun worked with local Chinese merchants (sorry for the ambiguity) he would get some funding for his preparations, and if he framed it in the right way, the court MIGHT turn a blind eye to his deeds, as long as he kept Chinese military secrets in Chinese hands. Not sure if this would work. I project that in the early 1500s, circa 1510, China and Portugal will collide when the Portuguese begin expanding eastward into Sri Lanka and Malacca, and then China will be forced to face their relative military backwardness, though higher numbers will give them a slight fighting chance. It will also give Zheng Jun and his cohorts the support they need to complete their ideas for military reform, though if at least some Chinese ships were armed with these new weapons, the court would have real proof of their efficiency, though numbers will probably be the Chinese chief advantage. Hlanus (talk) 18:33, May 13, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I checked the routes taken by Columbus, and one of the things he tried to do was take advantage of the trade winds. Would he have just sailed directly southwest and not bother with the Iberians? As for his ships, what WOULD he have called them if he was working for England instead of Spain? In the meantime I will delete that user's contribution until we can get that fixed.

I will also fix the portion about Zheng Jun and the Portuguese as well.

As for the battle with the Mongols, I reduced the ratio between Mongols and Chinese and made it clear that it was unexpected developments than the change in ammunition that saved them. All the new ammunition did was startle the Mongols for a moment. Also, rather than a complete victory for the Chinese I made it a pyrrhic victory at best, with half of their forces destroyed in the first battle. How can I improve the battle any more without making it a complete route for the Chinese? 68.231.174.243 18:35, May 14, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I figured that if they were going to conduct trade, then they would need a means of communicating with the locals or the merchants, who were predominantly Chinese, Indian, and Muslim, which is why I, and Zheng He, chose those languages. If they would not know Chinese or Hindi, I think the closest they WOULD know would be Greek and Latin, though would those be enough to open a dialogue?

As for the exploration route, I figured that if Columbus wanted to reach the Spice Islands, he would travel in a way to reach them, meaning going southwest. Since Cabot is traveling due west, should I just put them together in the same boat, so to speak?

As for the names of his ships, would they be named by Henry VII for English nobles or generals? The only named ship of the Tudor navy that I know of is the Mary Rose.

As for the Mongol battle (near Buuntsaagan Lake I presume), I think the Mongols WOULD have rode around the Chinese out of the range of their weapons and rained arrow after arrow on them, then close in when the Chinese were tired and hungry. The problem is that this was not MY battle, I just tinkered with it to reduce the effectiveness of the weaponry and the degree of being outnumbered. I am trying to figure out which to keep and which to discard, though perhaps I should just rewrite the whole thing from scratch, though what do I do about that picture?

Hlanus (talk) 16:21, May 15, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

OK, so Columbus will sail due west for England while John Cabot will head for the Caribbean, if I am not mistaken. I am writing that Columbus will stop in Iceland for supplies and repairs, which should be easier to obtain than any territories held by Portugal or Spain, though not by much since Iceland's chief exports are wool and fish. On a side note, you mentioned that fishermen knew of the Great Banks, so I am guessing that Columbus would have known or at least heard about "Vinland". If he did, do you think he would have stopped for supplies and repairs? Probably as sea travel was very dangerous at the time, and any opportunity would have been great. Even with the Norse colonies in North America and Greenland abandoned, there would have been some buildings and maybe some equipment usable in the latter, and lots of wood and food in the former.

As for the language thing, did the Europeans have ANY way to deal with that? Or was it just go ahead and hope for the best? I doubt the Chinese or Indians would have known any European languages except maybe Greek or Latin, and that would have been from the ancient times, so the two sides would only be marginally understandable at best. The Arabs would probably been the best for the language problem as they were trading around the area, both with native rulers and merchants, as well as other Arabs. I am sure that extensive contact would have left the Arab merchants somewhat multilingual, though probably just enough to haggle and do business, but something is usually better than nothing.

As for the Mongol battle you mentioned, my plan is to rewrite it so the two parts are switched around: first the Mongols open up with arrow fire while circling the Chinese caravan with their horse archers to soften them up and buy them time to bring up the rest of their force; then, when they think the Chinese are faltering, they charge. My only concern is that picture, as it will have to be replaced. You have any ideas on how to do that? I have already sent a message to the original maker, but I have not heard back from him yet. Hlanus (talk) 06:23, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Regarding Iceland, I know that it would be very dangerous with the ice and the cold, but I doubt that Columbus or anyone at the time would try to sail directly west without stopping for anything. Even if the Icelanders are dirt-poor due to erosion and poor climate, they would at least be a rest-stop for his ships. Also, he MIGHT have gotten some idea of what lay ahead, as the Icelanders were basically a go-between for Norway and Greenland until the colony died, which was circa half a century in the 1490s. And the Greenlanders made trips to North America and the north of Greenland to get ivory, polar bears, and falcons for trade, and wood for more basic needs. It would not be much, but something is usually better than nothing.

As for the wood and food, I am referring to wild sources, such as fish and berries and trees, not cultivated ones. Those would have required a recently living population to sustain them, which the natives did not do after the Norse colony died out, or an excellent refrigeration system. Also, this refers to Vinland itself, not Greenland, as Greenland's trees were almost all cut down by the time the colony died out. All they would be doing would be scavenging the ruins in Greenland, and foraging in the woods in Vinland.

As for the "newly-built ships" line, I am guessing that this refers to the English ships. I wrote that they were rebuilt along carrack lines from Spain and Portugal because (as far as I know) the Tudor navy did not make these changes earlier, otl or atl. They simply upgraded the ships they already had to go along the Portuguese lines. Hlanus (talk) 16:22, May 16, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Greenlanders DID trade walrus ivory up to a point, then it dwindled when it became possible to import ivory from India and Africa, then it went out of fashion all together. They also traded other products, in exchange for wood, iron, other foodstuffs, and social and religious contracts. Iceland was used as the go-between for Norway and Greenland, then interest in Greenland products dwindled, the Little Ice Age made cattle-raising and farming less productive, hostile relations with the natives, which were mostly Inuit, not Dorset, who were largely assimilated by the end of Norse Greenland history.

The rest, all right. Hlanus (talk) 05:45, May 17, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

What do you mean by "Great Banks"? I am basing this on a map of the north Atlantic and where Columbus would have ended up if he went due west from Bristol, which would have put him around Newfoundland, which is a combination of taiga and tundra.

One question about the Mongol battle you pointed out. I have written that the Mongols are basically besieging the Chinese caravans, hoping to starve them out, when Amasanj begins to raid their supply lines and reinforcements. Fearing an attack without reinforcements, Dayan Khan decides to withdraw, but to be safe, he wants to head straight east to avoid the areas that were raided, which could invite the Chinese, albeit unlikely, out to attack him. My guess is that the Chinese will simply let him go, though they will counterattack if he does. As his objective by this point is to escape than to fight, this is very unlikely. Basically, it is just you leave me alone and I leave you alone for both sides.

Hlanus (talk) 07:27, May 17, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for all that. Almost done with the Mongols. Just one thing: there seems to be a functional break between the skirmish and the final phases, as the skirmish did not noticeably drain Dayan Khan's strength and forced Amasanj to invest more troops to the supply caravans. I need to put in a reason why they retain a degree of parity in power, and I was thinking of Dayan Khan launching an attack on a key military target, and meets some deadly surprises, perhaps the new artillery and ammunition. He will probably launch a feint attack on some other target to grab Amasanj's attention and then go for it, but the only target that I can think of that would be worth attacking would be Karakorum, and I doubt either Amasanj or Dayan Khan are stupid enough for such a setup. Karakorum would be primarily a propaganda victory against Amasanj as a Mongol leader, akin to saying that the true Khan has returned to claim his capital, so Amasanj would probably never leave unless it was a real emergency, but I do not know of anything that could be urgent enough for that.

Just a few questions regarding the English, how long would it take for them to figure out that they discovered a continent? I suspect that Columbus would want to go further west along the coast, which should be a bit of an eye-opener. After a few months, he'll probably turn back and inform the king on his travels. During which, he'll probably encounter some of the native tribes, if he has not already encountered the Beothuk in Newfoundland, but I am unsure which tribes he would encounter in the northeast North America or what products, save some crops and furs, he would be able to obtain from them. This would probably stimulate exploratory curiosity but probably no rush to colonize, since, as far as I know, there is no gold or silver to plunder, and the English are not as interested in converting people to Christianity as are the Spanish and the Portuguese. I suspect that it will take a while for the English to figure out the extensiveness of their discovery, perhaps about 1505 or so but I am not sure.

I am wondering how information about the New World travelled outside Spain in otl, because that is probably how it will travel atl to China, which as far as I know is the only way the Chinese would seek the Americas out intentionally. Also, I read something about the Treaty of Tordesillas, which basically split the world between Portugal and Spain, which helped stimulate their exploration as well as other nations. I am guessing that this will still be in effect so maybe, MAYBE, the English will try and keep quiet about their discovery, as the Spanish and Portuguese will try and claim their "rights" it, and if this is the case, then it will probably be a while before China ever hears of it, as their main link to Europe is the Portuguese.

Hlanus (talk) 05:16, May 19, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

So the whole Mongol section is fine as it is? Just making sure.

You mentioned new names for the Continents. How about Columbia for the Northern one, and a different one for whoever discovers South America? Or would it be Columbia for both? Figuring that we refer to the Americas as though they were discovered by the same explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, the latter seems more likely.

As for colonies, I am thinking the English, due to their head start, will probably be the first, circa, 1510s or so, but I doubt the colonies would get very far, as in otl. Same with Portugal and Spain in Brazil and the Caribbean respectively, though I suspect the Portuguese would arrive last, for in otl the cost of occupying Brazil compared to the profits from their trade in Asia kept them relatively uninterested. Spain would probably colonize second, which raises one possible implication: Hernan Cortes arrives later than in otl, which means that the Aztec leader may not be Moctezuma II, as he was born 1466, so he would be in his forties when the first colonies arise. By the time Hernan Cortes arrives, his consolidation efforts would be further along than in otl, so the Aztecs may give a more resilient defence, though disease from trade routes would still take their toll. All-in-all, the Spanish would likely have a harder time conquering Mexico than otl, but they would accomplish it, unless the Aztecs received a major technological boost, say guns and steel. China is one candidate, but probably not: no real reason to go save curiosity, and even if they did arrive before Cortes, a big "if", the Aztecs' religious practices would likely sour relations.

Just some ideas.

Hlanus (talk) 06:51, May 19, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

All right, here's where I'm going. Spain, under <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 19.1875px; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none;">Juan Ponce de León, will discover the Caribbean, and the Portuguese will discover Brazil. England will be the first to colonize, due to their headstart, Spain will be next, then Portugal, then France, then lastly, China, though they may be the first to colonize the Pacific coast of North America, due to their geographical proximity. Spain will probably hold on to Peru as in otl, due to disease, diplomacy, and technology.

I am thinking the continents will be named Brazil and maybe Vinland, or a Angloized/Latinized version of it. And as I said, the only way the Aztecs or the Inca could resist conquest would be if someone, Chinese, English, Portuguese, or anyone gave them a huge technological boost, and there is no real reason for this, save trade and tribute, and they will probably never make it in time. All they COULD do would be arm tribes resisting the Spanish conquest/occupation.

Thus, the likely division will probably be akin to otl, with the Portuguese in Brazil, the Spanish in the Caribbean and Mexico, and the English in Maine and Newfoundland. The Chinese will probably get the Oregon, Washington, and Columbia area. The French, I am not sure, though Louisiana would likely be theirs as in otl. Hlanus (talk) 17:59, May 19, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for the fyi. Just for quick clarification, is it all bad, or are some parts still good? My guess is the former, but I just want to be sure.

The natives are not "abandoning" the area. The area is along the coast of Maine, where the natives, such as the Passamaquoddy and the Mi'kmaq, do seasonal migrations from the coast in summer to the forests in winter, and as the voyagers are all departing in summer and arriving in late autumn, it is just bad timing, which is why Henry here schedules the next one to arrive in summer, to try and test this idea.

As for the bay, I thought about naming it after the saint of the date on the Catholic calendar they discovered it, but I could not find the calendar in time. As for the river, I figured that he would simply try a longboat and do a cursory look and not go very far up the river, not past where it begins to narrow.

China "colonizing" would probably begin with trading posts and would be largely unofficial, as there are several "colonies" in SE Asia, despite the government's strict policies. Also, once the officials find mineral wealth in the area I highlighted, news of it will attract prospectors and laborers and government officials. As for the word spreading, it does spread after the first voyage; the second only confirms and strengthen the stories with the added content. Hlanus (talk) 00:25, May 21, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Regarding Chinese "colonization", the Ming Dynasty will fall around the 1600s, akin to otl. Would not the new dynasty, depending on who they were and how they rose, have a different attitude to colonization? Besides, when the mineral wealth is discovered, would not the court want to keep close tabs on the prospectors and merchants, meaning an expansion of the trading posts? Probably not go further than that initially. Hlanus (talk) 02:13, May 21, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Let me cut to the chase: with all the changes that you have seen thus far, how will this differ from otl by the mid 1600s? Will China be able to escape being predominated by European powers? Will she hold power and influence in the Pacific region? Or is my reach exceeding the timeline's grasp? If it is, then is there much point to all this? Hlanus (talk) 02:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for the update. Just so you know, I am basing Cabral's adventures on what happened otl, because I cannot see any reason for them to be different. As such, I am basing it on preliminary research I did on wikipedia on the Second Portuguese Indian Armada. I came across three hypotheses as for why he turned southwest: he was trying to reach the Azorres to repair his storm-battered ships; he was searching for ships lost in the storm; he was trying to catch a favorable wind (which the article said was most probable); and, most improbable, he was searching for Brazil. The trade wind information, however, was probably based on Columbus' prior discoveries, so maybe you're right about that part, unless the Europeans already had good information on the winds in that part of the world.

As for the king telling them not to take people, again that is based on otl, with the Castilian monarchs and Columbus. I figured the Beothuk, who in otl, were mostly hostile and elusive in the face of European explorers and settlers, may have caused enough trouble to convince the king to revise his policies regarding the kidnapping of natives. In fact, due to their homeland's position relative to Greenland and the probable location of Vinland, they may have been the skraelings mentioned in the sagas regarding Vinland and why the colony failed, though the term itself was applied to the Inuit as well, so it was more akin to the Greeks' use of the word "barbarian".

BTW, what do you mean by this quote: "would not buy the English claims of world size or having found Asia"? And by "turnover", do you mean the transition between dynasties? Hlanus (talk) 04:45, May 22, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

On the blankets, I read that smallpox can be spread via scabs or fomites, or maybe I am reading that wrong. Also, I read on wikipedia that "maize" is a Taino word for the crop, and as this is in New England, would not the Algonquian language equivalent be used instead? And the brackets are there to show people where things are otl so they know what it is that I am talking about. Perhaps a map would be better. If you have any ideas I would really appreciate it. Hlanus (talk) 16:09, May 23, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Just a clarification about Cabot and Columbus, in case it is relevant. Cabot is exploring the coast off Maine near the Bay of Fundy and further south. Columbus is exploring the area off Newfoundland and Labrador. While the natives did not rely on agriculture as much as the Iroquois further south and east, some tribes, such as the Abenaki, did have it and so he would have caught a glimpse of it. As his men travelled further south they would have seen agriculture planted more frequently, which would have reached Cabot's ears.

Anyway, about the map, I know where I can get the maps, but how do I write them so they read what I want? The only program I know of that can do something like that is Photoshop, but I somehow doubt that that is the right program.

Also, I have France beginning to catch on, as they were delayed by the Italian War of 1499-1504, so I am guessing that they would begin a few years, five tops, after the war ends. Probably explore the area farther south of where Cabot looked, and probably look around the Caribbean region as well, and then finish it with a trip up the Mississippi River. Louis XII of the House of Valois would be the king then, and some likely explorers are Giovannu da Verrazzano, the first, Jacques Cartier, and Sieur de Robervall.

Lastly, one thing I am wondering is whether the Spanish colonies in the Caribbean would have a disadvantage regarding labor, as the Europeans initially enslaved the natives, as in the case of La Navida under Columbus, but with disease and warfare dwindling their numbers, and hired labor being relatively expensive, due to the cost of transport across the Atlantic and the low numbers of settlers, meaning that they can demand high wages, then it would only be a matter of time before they turned to the slave trade, especially in the Caribbean when they began planting cash crops over mining for gold. But with Africa being largely under Portugal's sphere of influence, would they be willing to do that due to their rivalry? Or am I missing something because slavery in the Americas is not one of my specialties. Maybe they would use indentured servants as the English did in the Americas, and later a system similar in Australia? Hlanus (talk) 16:09, May 24, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

The concept that Brazil and Vinlandia are connected is as of now just an idea that Vespucci is entertaining, out of speculation. Until someone, probably from France or Spain, reaches Mexico and explores both north and south of it, they will have no idea that they are connected, and that in and of itself would take several decades, probably not until the mid or late 1500s at the earliest.

As for the whole Labrador natives thing, both the Inuit and the Beothuk are resilient to outsiders, and Columbus' treatment would not smooth things over. The history of disease would also leave a sour taste. The guns would only ameliorate the tensions to a degree. If the tribes were in conflict with the Iroquois, then the chance to acquire an advantage over them would lead to an "official" end to tensions, though the tribes are nowhere near the Iroquois, so that does not work. I am guessing that they will have to remove the natives by force instead of trying to trade with them then. On the issue of agriculture, would not Cabot have encountered natives with agricultural produce they acquired via trade? I am guessing not. I am just trying to figure out how much rewriting I need to do.

As for the Amazon, I know the river is huge and I had assumed that Cabral would see so from the size of the delta. Guess they are not correlated as such.

On the topic of Caribbean languages, from what I can gather, there are three major language groups: the Taino, the majority of the islands; the Cariban, which hold on the Leeward Lesser Antiles and the northern South American coast; and the Guanahetabeyes, which are restricted to the westernmost tip of Cuba. I know that they are very different, but these people have been in contact for centuries, and probably have exchanged some words, akin to French and English. This would not by any means help with language acquisition, but it would be noticed.

On the river cities, I expect that the cities have not been exposed to diseases yet, as the Spanish only arrived at the Caribbean a few years prior. Once the diseases strike, their decline will probably accelerate and Cabral would probably act on it to "persuade" the locals. I am planning to have the Portuguese take the cities over, if they can, instead of building their own. More efficient this way, though I am unsure if this would be feasible or not.

Hlanus (talk) 06:27, May 30, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

On the part of the Amazonia, I plan to have the Portuguese persuade the locals to gather at the cities, either by the lure of trade or the use of force, so they can use the cities to build their own colonies.

On the part of the Beothuk, I am planning for them to die out as a people no later than the 1800s. Too few of them, as you mentioned, and the English are settling earlier, which should hasten their demise. For now, they have time because the colony is really a stopping point for ships coming to and from England. Once they begin colonizing the area in New England and travel becomes more direct, Newfoundland should get a lower profile, but it should make no difference, due to disease and ongoing conflicts between the Beothuk and the colonists.

In Labrador, they will probably set up trading posts, but the real colonies will be in New England area. Just not conducive to agriculture, though the fur business is too good to pass up. I suspect that peace will be harder to obtain though, perhaps by the 1510s or 20s thereabouts.

By "new section" I assume you mean Gama's voyage to India. I will try to reword that though I am basing it on what happened otl because I cannot see any reason why it would be different atl until they reach India. I suspect that even then not much will have changed, except that Gama will probably be more restrained in the use of force near the city of Diu so as not to accidentally antagonize the Chinese. In the near future, circa 1600s, I am thinking India will become a de facto buffer zone between China and Europe, with eastern India and Bangladesh under Chinese influence, but not governance, and western and southern India under European and eventually British dominance. This is because Bangladesh and Ceylon are close to Sumatra and Malacca, and if the Portuguese begin messing with Southeast Asia, China will have to respond in some manner. Both sides will mutually agree on the spheres of influence due to China's historical influence in the area, which will be stronger atl. Over time, as India is taken over, I suspect that kingdoms in Ceylon and Bangladesh may seek closer ties with China to booster their own power, but more likely they will seek alliances with rival Europeans. Hlanus (talk) 16:07, May 30, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I figured China would not have the same type of influence on India that she had on Vietnam or Korea by any means, though definitely stronger than otl, simply due to her larger sphere of influence. Still, restricted largely to the easternmost fringes and Celyon, except for Diu which was built by the Chinese. Ming-Indian relations would probably be marked by increased trade between the Empire and the various kingdoms, with maybe, though highly unlikely, periodic tribute sent to the throne in the areas closest to Assam and Burma, just to stroke China's ego. Also, once the Europeans begin moving in, the kingdoms will likely turn to China for support in their conflicts, as well as try to play the Europeans against each other.

Also, I understand the areas that would risk China's wrath, but I am somewhat confused on the rest. OTL, the Dutch occupied the Spice Islands early on, and went to extreme lengths to secure their monopoly. ATL, however, the Chinese have trading posts along the length of the maritine trade routes and closer relations with the nations in the area, particularly their already strong allies, including Malacca and Tondo in the Philippines. I understand that the Europeans will trade in the area regardless of whatever changes occur, but would they still colonize the area as they did otl? I am thinking that they would be somewhat more restrained to avoid harming Chinese property and/or citizens, military or otherwise, but that would be about it. Otherwise, they would risk a war with China. Nevertheless, such a war would likely require a direct act against the Chinese. An indirect one would just put them on alert, but only to secure their personal holdings and personel. Also, once the dynastic turnover begins, they will probably pounce to take advantage of China's turmoil. Hlanus (talk) 07:28, May 31, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Remember atl, the Chinese do not sink or scuttle the Treasure fleets, though the Treasure ships are gone by now, so they have a larger navy than otl. Also, atl, they established trading posts all along the area, including the Spice Islands. I suspect that their sphere of influence would be somewhat larger and incorporate Taiwan and the Northern Philippines, the location of the Kingdom of Tondo whom the Ming had special diplomatic relationships with, though still centered on the Malaysian peninsula. Also, because trade is more important economically to the Ming, the Haijin order will probably not be reinstated as it was otl in 1550, so China will retain a large albeit somewhat outdated fleet well into the 1600s. The large Chinese fleet should be enough to deter overt European interference in the islands closest to China and her vassals. Even with technological superiority, the logistical and numerical advantages the Ming will enjoy would make a naval confrontation too expensive to sustain. Until the dynastic transition occurs, I suspect the Europeans are going to be very careful in dealing with Southeast asia, especially as they go closer to China.

On the other side of the Pacific, I am contemplating the fate of the Big Three Civilizations: the Aztecs, the Maya, and the Inca. The first two are no-brainers: they will be conquered by the Spanish like otl unless a miracle occurs. The Spanish are simply better able to project their power into the area, with their bases in the Caribbean and everything. The Inca, however, I am not so sure. Without the Treaty of Tordesillas, there is basically a free-for-all in the New World, with everyone who can send ships and men able to make a claim, so there's a race to colonize. My question is whether this race would extend to the Inca, because even after the Spanish conquer Mexico and the adjoining territories, there will be a delay in conquering the Inca because they will have to consolidate their conquests and will have to put down rebellions, just like otl. Once stories of the Inca and their wealth reach the Europeans, the countries best able to take advantage of it will be the Spanish and the Portuguese due to the geographic proximity of their colonies. If the Portuguese can expand their bases up the northern coast, they should be in a position to take advantage of these stories, albeit only to make contact with the Inca. Conquering would be very expensive and difficult, but contacting should not be much of a problem. If that is the case, then there may be a race to contact rather than conquer the Inca, as the first one to antagonize them will deliver their allegiance to their rival. If there is no race, then it all happens as in otl, and probably even easier because diseases will have travelled farther and deeper than otl.

Hlanus (talk) 15:37, May 31, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

If I understand correctly on the Inca, then once disease hits and the Inca Civil War hits, the Inca Empire will be divided into a series of kingdoms. Then the Spanish will ally with one to set up a base for the conquest of the others. Much like otl when they allied with disgruntled tribes against the Inca. I am unsure why there would be a race though. The only civilizations in the New World are the French, the English, and the Portuguese. The Dutch and the Chinese will come later but probably too late to take advantage of the Inca unless they somehow get there fast enough or the Inca hold out long enough, which will not happen here. With the Portuguese more interested in Asia, and the English so far up north, only the French are available for the race. Would there have been a real race, or at least a perceived one by the Spanish? If not, then the only drive in the race would be greed. Still a while before I write about the Big Three, but I want to be ready. 68.231.174.243 06:25, June 1, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Just so you know, I had my computer checked just recently that logged me out of everything, and I forgot to log back in when I wrote the comment above. Sorry about the mixup. Have a good one. Hlanus (talk) 06:32, June 1, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I read that the Spanish had to ally with certain tribes for when the Inca rebelled. That was what I was referring to. While the initial conquest was fairly straightforward, when the Inca rebelled and took over Lima, the Spanish needed allies to boost their armies. Then they stabbed their allies in the back. There's archaeological evidence from a dig site in Lima, which shows Inca soldiers from the time and place of the fighting being killed with both Spanish and local weapons.

BTW, you mentioned the Chinese setting them up as a vassal state. I am guessing that that means that the Chinese will encounter them before the Spanish set up a complete conquest of the area. The Spanish will probably rule most of the Empire, but perhaps a few remote areas near the coast will get by. That is what I am speculating based on what you said on my talk page. 68.231.174.243 17:15, June 1, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

As I said before, my speciality is in East Asian history, so I know virtually nothing of the specific voyages of discovery, especially in the case of the Portuguese. My main source is wikipedia, which said that he was assured by Gaspar da Gama that the city in question, Onor as I wrote, was a pirate nest and so he attacked. I figured that the only difference is that Gama will be more careful in his treaty terms to avoid giving the Chinese an opening to exploit or offending the Chinese in some way. Also, by "Would make far more sense to have a city be thought to have hosted the pirates last, and have them sack it" what did you mean? That "last" part seems to be out of place. If I am reading the accounts right, he was told that the pirate nest was in the city and attacked, which earned him the fear and admiration of the local raja that offered tribute to keep Gama from turning his guns to him. Just want to be sure that I am reading it right. Thanks for the feedback. Hlanus (talk) 09:01, June 2, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

One thing I thought about regarding Gama's mission is the influence of the Chinese merchants and the trading post at Diu. You are correct when you pointed out that the Chinese are not going to interfere, which is why Gama is restricted from directly harming the Chinese. One thing is how the Chinese will respond to a move that affects them indirectly, which is something Gama wants to be sure of. Everyone knows that if you go around killing a nations' citizens or stealing their goods, the country will respond in some way. The thing Gama wants to know for sure is will the Chinese respond to Portuguese commercial expansion in India so long as their ships and trading posts are untouched, and if so, how? He and Manuel I do not expect much, response, but they want to be relatively sure, because both know the Chinese have the logistical advantage if war were to break out at this time. His actions are going to get a response from the Chinese, but only so far as they will take note of it for later. I suspect that the primary difference is going to be the terms of the treaties he imposes on the states of India, and he will likely deal with Calicut differently.

One question: what is it about the dates being different? I understand that things are different, and that the mission will be different, but how are the dates different? With the losses the Cabral suffered, it would have cost time for the king to build up his fleet enough to undertake another mission to India while also supporting a mission to Brazil. Am I going too fast for Portual? Would it have taken longer? Hlanus (talk) 10:18, June 2, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I meant that Portugal would have to restrain themselves in terms of harshness and making themselves the favorities of India. As you said, competition. As Gama going after the Chinese ship, I am unsure why he would do that. I suppose it would be to find out what they were carrying, but I am unsure what he would be searching for. The only other reason I can think of is to find out where they were going to try and blockade Calicut.

As for China, I figure that by 1510, they would hear of the new lands, and with the new Emperor, may be curious enough to launch their own fleets of exploration, probably by 1515 at the earliest. Their exploration fleet will likely be built along the same lines as the Treasure Fleets, except that their flagships will be bigger, more decorated versions of war junks, but not as big or as gaudy as the Treasure Ships. My question is which direction they will sail: east, north, or south? East will probably be the last direction they would go. My money would be for them to go north, along the Siberian coast and into Alaska. I doubt that they would brave the open ocean unless they had little choice, and they would want to stay close to the coast for supplies. Hlanus (talk) 17:57, June 5, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

On a side note, I am wondering what the etymology of the Magdalen Islands is. I am wondering because I still have a set of brackets on Timeline 1424-1500 (Zheng China) that I want to remove but I do not know what the islands would be called atl. Once I know, I'll change their name and add them to the OTL vs ATL page. Thanks for the feedback. Hlanus (talk) 06:18, June 6, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for the help. BTW, on the Zheng China timeline, I have removed most of the biased material, so I was wondering if it was all right for me to remove it from the ASB-Biased category, I am not sure if I have this authority, however, and I might have missed some things. Please look it over and tell me what you think. Hlanus (talk) 15:49, June 13, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I put in Irene to indicate where they were more than anything. I think that the French would find people, just not the sedentary Mississipian culture that was based there. Probably foragers and fishermen who would be travelling there periodically, likely Cherokee, Creek, and/or Yamasee. I'll change it soon. Thanks for the heads-up. Hlanus (talk) 16:55, June 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I thought that a few mounds survived from this period in other areas, or maybe I thought wrong. Anyway, just a thought: would the French call the area they first explore Louisiana, or would that be reserved for their first colony? I am asking because here the French are first aiming to colonize what are the Carolinas and Georgia otl instead of Louisiana otl. The reason I am asking is because the king at this point is King Louis XII, and they are likely going to name the area in his honor. I just want to be sure. Thanks. Hlanus (talk) 04:38, June 28, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks. I thought I made it clear that at this time this is all speculation. No one really has any idea as to the size or extent of Vinlandia and Brazil or their connection to each other. Guess I should reword that.

As for Zheng Zun, I briefly thought about him trying to winter in Alaska to avoid the worst of the winter, but the intense storms that the coast of the peninsula suffers undermined that idea, so I figured that he would be best to return to China to avoid more extensive or serious damage.

Hlanus (talk) 16:41, July 4, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I need to reword that I know. Would they consider these new territories an outreach of Asia until someone in the distant future explored the Bering Strait? I doubt Zheng Zun would explore it. Too cold, too much ice, and no incentive as far as I can tell in terms of furs or valuables worth pursuing. He would only explore it if the Emperor ordered him to, and I can not think of any particular reason to do so.

Just out of curiosity, when would these terms come into use? I do not like to keep referring to them as "new lands" or something like that. I just think it gets redundant and sounds rather lame.

As for the deaths from disease, I assume you mean that the Kamchatka peoples and the Inuit would not suffer epidemics as for example the Aztecs and Inca did. Just making sure. One thing about the Kodiak inhabitants that I postulated is that they might have fared better relatively than the Aleuts: greater island size and higher population numbers without higher population density. I sincerely doubt it so I did not put it in. Hlanus (talk) 06:03, July 10, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Just one thing. I am working on a piece for Japan, which becomes more expansionistic than otl, because China acts as a pseudo-buffer against the Europeans, reducing the perceived threat they pose to Japan. I figure that instead of invading Korea as in otl, as China's navy is larger and stronger and better able to cut off Japanese troops and supplies, Toyotomi invades the Ryukyu islands and Hokkaido, and eventually Japan moves north to Kamchatka Peninsula and Alaska. One thing, however, concerns me. I researched the Ryukyu Kingdom, which ruled the islands at this time, and found that they were partially a tribute state to Ming China, but maintained tributary status with Japan as well. Would this have posed a problem if Toyotomi wanted to invade? Hlanus (talk) 18:46, July 10, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I figured that California would be pushing it. Just a clarification, they are at the very edge of California, like right at the Oregon-California border. By "go too fast", do you mean that they are sailing too fast for seven weeks, or that they would not reach it on this particular trip? By the way, you said "far past the point where the diseases will advance through the natives before they arrive". Does this mean that disease will hit the natives BEFORE they arrive due to trade connections? I am guessing yes, but I want to be sure. Hlanus (talk) 17:22, August 9, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

By "events in Asia", are you referring to contact with Europeans and their machinations in Asia? Or am I way off? Hlanus (talk) 18:12, August 10, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

True. The peace won't last forever with their "border", and once the Malacca Sultanate weakens enough, the Portuguese will be back. But when was the last time a border remained fixed by a treaty? This is more or less a quick fix. Besides, in another century or so, when the dynasty changes, the Portuguese and other powers will pounce. I suspect, however, that the Portuguese will not try and confront China or her vassals head on, least not for some time.

BTW, I am working on the Inca Civil War section, and I was thinking that will Huascar and Atahualpa fighting each other, maybe some of the tribes to the far north and south would take the opportunity to try and break away. I am looking for other major players, but these half-brothers were really all I could find, but I'll keep looking. Hlanus (talk) 16:29, August 11, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Oh yeah!
Wow! That's great. There is a slight buzz now whenever I visit my profile page, cuase it has admin on it :D That really is great. Would I be able to get started right away by deleting games declared obsolete (i.e not having completed 15 turns and dead)?

Plus, I'm getting to work with the map game issue soon by creating a blog post about things I think which could help. Please be sure to have a llok at it and tell me if it is viable at all please? Thank you again! :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:58, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Deletion tag it is. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 09:26, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Username
Hello.

I've been thinking about putting in a request for Wikia to have my username renamed (which would mean that all my edits and everything else will be transferred to the new account as well). I was wondering if that would be okay with you. If not, then I won't. -Kogasa  2013年4月27日 17:42:16 (JST)

PRC port, and a few other things
Xincunxiang is a city south of Tianjin in Cangzhou, Hebei province. I felt that it would be small enough and far enough from any blast area to the perfect place where a port could be built.

I wanted to ask you about a few things that were on my mind these past couple of days, regarding the ANZC, SAC and the entirety of the Middle East. Should we make the other to superpowers a bit more proactive? It's kind of odd that the USSR grows and changes, while these other, more powerful nations just sit by and don't do anything. (other than some tension in India perhaps)

My other question would be about the Middle East. I know that Fxgentleman is responsible for most of this region, but he hasn't really gone into anything that happened after 1984 with any of his articles. These areas could really be a great place to write about, lands basically untouched by Doomsday. Vladivostok (talk) 11:11, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

The Middle East really could be a place where we could do some good. The timeline as it stands would really benefit from a more comprehensive and active Arab community.

That is what I meant when I asked about the ANZC and the SAC. What have they done lately, not just what they thought about the conquest of Imperial China. They are too static, considering the OTL significance of United States policies and actions in the world. These two are the the World's policemen after all. Vladivostok (talk) 13:21, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

You know what? I think I'm going to ask him about it sometime today. I don't see how he'd say no to other people working on articles in the ME he hasn't done anything with for over a year and a half. Vladivostok (talk) 07:35, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

But what else can we do Ganon? Either stay quiet and leave the Middle East alone, or ask him again. Vladivostok (talk) 10:56, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're still talking about it, both Fx's plans and whether he'll pop back on the site to finish the articles. Vladivostok (talk) 15:34, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Free Quebec
The page "Kingdom of Quebec (Free Quebec)" was written by me on my old account (Emperor Andrew); It was connected to my facebook account by I disconnected it and forgot the email and password; Please don't revert my edits; if you need any proof what-so-ever feel free to ask.Sabovia (talk) 02:28, April 30, 2013 (UTC)

What proof would you like? Sabovia (talk) 02:28, April 30, 2013 (UTC)

LOTTED?
What does this mean?

"is not lotted by angry staffers."

EoGuy (talk) 04:33, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Delete this image
Good morning, I would like you to delete the image "File:Flag of New Bastiglia.svg", because 1. It's messed up and 2. It's now substituted by "File:Flag of New Bastiglia.png". Sincerely, -- 08:57, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Block my first account. Yay an Edit conflict (talk) 21:38, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

In th ruins of Rome
I know this. Might be alot to ask but I was wondering if you, a experianced wiki person and me a new bie could create a really cool map game. the game basically is where you are a person and you Crete your own kingdom after Rome fell. Will you help me with all the crazy map game stuff I don't get (Algorithum and more insight). --Octivian Marius (talk) 22:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Italian Unification.
Hello.

I am designing an Alternative History board game, and have worked out that Italy ideally (for the game mechanics) should not unify. Is there a plausible way to avoid unification, what with (from my research) a lot of pro-unification feelings throughout the peninsular?

Thanking you in advance,

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 16:15, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Could France plausibly have designs on Piedmont-Sardinia?

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 17:29, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Will keep thinking then. Is it ok to bounce thoughts off you for plausiblity?

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 08:39, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Hi again. Would a (much) stronger Pope prevent unification?

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 18:51, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

1983DD:Manchuria
I've used some of the suggestions from Vlad and yourself to improve the Manchurian Territory and Operation Manchurian Freedom. I was wondering if you had any other suggestions to help me improve the articles. Mscoree (talk) 21:01, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

What exactly is the problem? Vlad and I have both edited it accordingly. What else has to be fixed? Mscoree (talk) 01:39, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't know what you're talking about. What exactly needs to be fixed? Mscoree (talk) 12:32, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

i am very sorry. I know it sounds stupid but i did not know it was spamming. It will never happen again

I've lessened the severity of the involvement of Imperial China in Operation Manchurian Freedom. Anything else that needs fixing? Mscoree (talk) 23:39, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I've also fixed up the territory page. Mscoree (talk) 23:59, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what you want from me. That's what it said on the Second Manchurian War page. Mscoree (talk) 12:32, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Vlad told me that Imperial China's involvement was minimal, but politically they were in favor of the Manchurians. That is why I put that they supported them. Even if they did not do this officially, their people certainly contributed to the war economically. On the territory page I wrote exactly what Vlad said about Taiwan. I don't see how it's exaggerated at all. Mscoree (talk) 14:14, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Actually on the Second Manchurian War page it clearly states:

"The Imperials were being overwhelmed by the superior firepower of the USSR. However, by the end of March, the Chinese government in Taiwan openly sided with Imperial China, supporting them politically, as well as economically. 'Volunteer' units from Taiwan arrived two weeks later, on April 18th, as the ROC did not want to engage in an official war with Siberia. Seeing that the war could not be won by air superiority alone, the USSR started the invasion with a pincer maneuver, focusing on Songyuan and Baicheng."

This clearly states that Taiwan supported the Imperials, both economically and politically. It then says that people who live in Taiwan fought alongside the Imperials, labeling them as volunteers.

It then goes on to say this in the Battles of Songyuan and Baicheng section:

"The plan was conceived by both the Taiwanese and the Imperials to kill as many troops as possible."

This clearly states that the Taiwanese helped in the war in some way or another.

As for Imperial China's involvement in Operation Manchurian Freedom, I have removed several parts, stating that they secretly aided rebel groups, mostly financially. Vlad told me on the talk page for that page this:

"Also, Imperial China didn't engage the Siberians in so direct a manner. There was no warfare, official or otherwise, between them until 2012."

You appear to quote Vlad, saying that he told me to remove Imperial China's mentions, but that is literally all he said.

It also been stated (I forget where) that the Imperials were displeased after Operation Manchurian Freedom, believing that "the USSR annexed several of their fiefdoms to the north out of pure hostility and with brute force." After all that it's hard to believe the Imperials wouldn't supply or aid Manchurian refugees, who could possibly be hostile rebels to Siberian rule. Mscoree (talk) 20:54, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

I think I finally fixed it. Mscoree (talk) 01:47, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

What exactly remains? I believe I fixed everything in your last few comments. Mscoree (talk) 14:14, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by authority? Are the rebels still too organized and centralized? Mscoree (talk) 14:14, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I'll tweak some words around, but I honestly don't think the rebels are as organized as you think. The majority of the resistance is described as small arms attacks and protests. The few organized attacks that are added are controlled by local, private warlords, who hire their gang to start a few fights. The militia, which is basically a few hundred farmers and what the Siberians would describe as terrorists, is hardly menacing to the Siberians. The only major rebel victory to speak of is "small groups of raiders were sent from Tongliao, destroying two Siberian trucks in the withdraw." Shooting up two trucks isn't much of an organized campaign. Mscoree (talk) 14:29, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Also is there anything wrong with the Manchurian Territory page? I feel like you're tying these two pages together. If there is nothing wrong with the territory page I think that one can become canon now. Mscoree (talk) 14:31, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Ebook Link
Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-League-Planets-Adventure-ebook/dp/B00CKH4FAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367592123&sr=8-1&keywords=the+forbidden+army

What was it you were saying that one time about Mitro?

KingSweden (talk) 02:27, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Warning
Sorry, LG, I had originally named the pg with the Rebuild (Map Game) ending, but someone else changed it to RMG. Could you clarify that. I read the rules...Thanks for telling me.Daeseunglim (talk) 20:03, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Question
Hello. I'm thinking about deleting some pages from one of my own timelines. Should I still put the delete template on my pages that I want to have deleted, or can I delete my own pages right away? -Kogasa  2013 May 10, 02:19 (CET)

RE: RC Port
I'm sorry, I assumed that the area was clear, as none of the maps show this specific sliver of OTL Russian territory being part of the Don Republic. I also failed to see anything that would suggest within the article itself that this area is a part of the DR. Could you please refer me to where it states that this is a part of the country.

Also, I didn't say that any land transport would occur any time soon, but there is certainly an advantage to controlling this part of Russia for the RC. Vladivostok (talk) 20:29, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Oh well, it was kind of difficult to see if it was or wasn't part of it, as I wanted it to be right next to the Don Republic. Novoazovsk it is then. Vladivostok (talk) 07:48, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Bessarabia in 13?
I came across something that I wanted to get your opinion on. Since it didn't happen until after the Napoleonic Wars, I left out from Russia. From what I read, Russia had their hands in the region prior to the POD here (especially since it give Russia piece of the Danube). Given that Russia would go through wars with Turkey again and again ATL, wouldn't it be possible to have Bessarabia be a part of Russia here as well?

I also came across that Russia (at one point) included the entire delta of the Danube, but lost it in the Crimean War. I am still not sure whether a Crimean-like war would happen here, but either way, I would love to read what you think. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:31, May 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear it is workable. Probably starting to sound like a broken record, but it is really shocking to see you here so early. I have been working on a list of wars for the timeline (I am feeling like there is too much peace here *evil laugh*), so no Crimean War is a good start. Tensions over the dissolution of the Ottomans would probably lead to war of some kind. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:34, May 11, 2013 (UTC)



Since we are on the topic of Russia, I was wondering if I can get your opinion the border between Korea (Japan) and Manchuria (Russia). Since Russia looses Dalian and Korea expands northwest of the Yalu River, I was considering just altering the border more. Since Russia would have to be more open to work out a deal with Japan, they might as well partition more Manchurian land over to them as well. This gives Japan more territory to colonize and a little more land to act as a buffer.

I have been playing round with the borders, and I think I have something workable. This gives Japan more territory without affecting the Chinese Eastern Railway. I have also divided the Liaodong Peninsula between the two (rather than giving it all to Japan [as you said]). My reasoning for which is to give Russia total control of Liaodong Bay (more protection). I would love to get your two cents on this.

While not an issue, I came across something that makes me happier to call Yingkou "Dalny." The river it is located on is called the Daliao River. Just pretty funny to find out. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:55, May 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "control of the bay would mean relatively little"? As for Korea, I tends to see Korea being completely merged into Japan at some point (as in it is divided into prefectures and directly controlled by Tokyo). This is due to the migration of Japanese into Korea, and that this had already happened in Taiwan by WWII (OTL). But this is me.


 * I'm beginning to have second thoughts on this. If anything, my main problem is finding an aesthetically pleasing land border between Dalian and Korea.


 * I also had a thought I would love to get your opinion on. With Russia establishing peace with Japan and the US being an obviously non-existent issue, how do you think this would affect Japanese attitudes towards the Philippines? (especially after they gain independence). In my mind, it seems quite easy for Japan to annex it (being the only other area they can gain without bothering the European powers), but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be possible. Though relation wise, I would assume they would be very close.


 * I am also considering how the relations between Japan and New Netherland would be (especially since there aren't too many positive sentences in OTL that include "FDR" and "Japan"). With NN right next door (Micronesia), I could maybe see a large number of Japanese populating the territory (more or less like OTL). Not sure this would lead to tensions or war, but interesting to think. Any thoughts? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:20, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

I believe I understand. I tended to see that since the entrance to the bay was so wide, neither Japan nor China could fully guard the entrance. But whatever, live and learn.

I think I am going to give up on the larger Korea idea. One of the main reasons I favored it was because it could have been a compromise for Russia to gain more area along the bay. But if Japan is going to be fussy on this issue, it would make much more sense to just give Japan the peninsula (and a land corridor) in exchange for safe access within the Yellow Sea. And as you mentioned, this new area would be administered differently from Korea around the time of this treaty, so no sense for Tokyo to be thinking on behalf of Koreans. I have uploaded a new map. This is more or less how I have seen it from the beginning.

Thank you for your input. If the Philippines and Micronesia avoid Japanese influences, I am wondering how they would express their imperialistic ideals with Europe remaining strong around them. Probably just building up their armed forces, building on the areas they do gain, and becoming a great power in their own right. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:34, May 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Now you have turned my world upside-down. So let me see if I have it right. It wouldn't matter what border Russia gets in the region because they would dominant it. Giving Japan a piece of it would (at the least) give them a sense of security in the region. From what you were telling me before, I was getting the message that Russia was going to have to kiss-up more to work there.


 * Never really though of that as a justification for Japan's actions OTL (being kicked around), but it makes sense. Though in Russia's defense, it did take them centuries to get to its size and global power (in the cold, no less), where it took Japan decades to achieve the same (and coming from an archipelago society). But anyway, nice to see some positives from a liberal Russia.


 * Since the topic was originally about Bessarabia, I also came across another area that I would like to get your opinion on: . Originally part of Sardinia, it was annexed by France (which it remains to this day). While it was taken during the French Revolution, it was given back, only to be taken again decades down the line. Any thoughts on them taking it here (possibly during the Revolutions of the 1840s?)?


 * I also had another realization. What of the microstates? Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein, Andorra, etc. Would they remain or would they get merged? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:52, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Really? That's the reasoning for Savoy being in France? Doesn't completely surprise me, he had "Napoleon" in his name. Didn't he also attempt to take Mexico? I now have to read more about him. ATL, nothing to worry about.

I decided to take a quick look at the microstates, and I came across two possibilities that I would like to get a follow-up on.

It looks like Liechtenstein had Austria to thank for its creation (in many respects), and it retained a close relationship with them until WWI (when monarchy ended). It appears it was tied to Austria, and the end of the monarchy is said to have played a factor in Liechtenstein being independent. With the monarchy remaining, and much of the smaller German state being absorbed by neighbors; wouldn't it make sense for them to have been absorbed into Austria at some point today? Or at the very least, it would retain a protectorate status to this day.

Monaco's independence appears to be linked to the French conquest of Savoy. Prior to which, they were close with Sardinia. Once France moved in, they prevented Monaco from merging with Sardinia (which it appears was favored). With Sardinia already expanding into Genoa and such, couldn't it be possible to have a merger here? If not, than I would say they may become a protectorate of some sort.

Not too sure about Andorra and San Marino. SM seems likely to remain independent (they pretty much went out of their way [kissing up to remain so). Though here they would likely share a border with Sicily and Venice. Given its name, maybe they would be closer with Venice. Andorra appears to be close with France (the French President appears to also have the title of "co-prince"). Maybe with the monarchy remaining they may be merged? Maybe a protectorate? I'm not sure. Any thoughts?

Also because it is rather confusing for me, what of the Crown Dependencies? Would they be merged into the UC (part of Britain or a dominion), or would it more or less have the same status as OTL? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:20, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Doomsday Map
So what was the problem with the DD map I added. Vladivostok (talk) 16:46, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

Very odd, I thought that the main map could be updated by anyone, at least that was how it was done in the past. Was the edit of lower quality or wrong?

Fx has privately assured me that he would be returning to finish it. But if you're referring to a concrete plan for the countries, then no. He has stated that he will be working on the Middle East up to the 2000s, however. Vladivostok (talk) 10:21, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry, I didn't know that. :L  Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:28, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hello i am Dixieleader and you nominated my page for deletion. Since I am new, what pointers can you give me to change my page to fit into the criteria.

Thanks,

Dixieleader (talk) 02:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC) Dixieleader

Human-Zombie War
Okay, thanks.

EoGuy (talk) 07:42, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

What  have i done so i know not to break it again. Sorry LG i wasnt doing it to break any rules. Can you tell me what the rule is so im sure i dont break it again please

DS|Fear the Mutated Dean Sims Bomb, Fear It 11:49, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

State College (Doomsday: 1983)
Hey, LG, I was reading the post for State College, and saw the map. I live in Montour County, PA, which is direcly next to the nation of State College. It does not say what sized nuclear bomb went off in Wilkes-Barre, but I think that by 2013 Montour and Columbia County would be raidation free. Now, you can check this out on http://www.carloslabs.com/node/20, and I did a test with a 100 kiloton nuclear bomb, and Montour and Columbia County were not hit by radiation, pressure, or the bomb blast itself. Now, I know that the radiation would have poisoned the river for some time, and possibly forced survivors to flee, but I just wanted to point out that State College could have expanded. ThanksDaeseunglim (talk) 12:32, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for that. Another question- Did State College, North PA, Gettysburg, and Reading ever try to merge?Daeseunglim (talk) 13:15, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay. This might sound odd, but are there any plans for the USA to reclaim all of the old US land? Are there plans in OTL alt hist users to do this?Daeseunglim (talk) 13:25, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Sad...200+/- a few...less than Russia...Your country (Canada) are they unifying? It sounded like they wanted to.

Micronesia
I am just letting you know that I am cleaning up the "Micronesia" category. There is a distinction between the region which comprises of several countries and the independent state of the Federated States of Micronesia. So I would appreciate you not reverting my cleanups again. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:58, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * You didn't have to make it sound like I'm being a nuisance by saying "now I'm going to fix that". I was only trying to help out. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 06:01, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Which "fool" are you referring to? Either way I can understand. If I have done something that you do not like, you know you can always inform me and I would be more than happy to revert them myself. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:31, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Well I wish you luck on him.

I personally think we do need a separate category. They are not rooted in history, and were specifically uploaded to have all possible combination of stars to use. They are not based in any historic relevance, with some he just posted to be mathematically correct (for instance, some flags are not the same as OTL's counterpart). Not to mention that there are over 70 files, it seems appropriate for them to be in there own category. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:42, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think I see what you mean. I certainly didn't mean for it to come out as a "glorification" or anything like that. But I tend to see subcategories as the category in question. For instance, I don't add every page of a timeline to the main timeline page. But if you feel it is needed, I have no objections. I have added the second category. If this continues to be an issue, I will remove it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:39, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

So what you are saying is you don't like the fact that this cat is too specific. As in, you would prefer a category for all his work (not just US flags). The primary reason I did this is because there are over 70 files of virtually the same flag. Also given that he did this completely for this site, I also see them as site oriented. But if this continues to bother you, I will replace it with a solid category.

I do have one of these cats. I have made it a hidden category, which has it not show up on the page. I could also make the other cat one too. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:02, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

Cult of Liberty (1983: Doomsday)
I was thinking about the nomadic clans described in 1983: Doomsday. Since I doubt these tribes would pack much, as a way to make traveling easier, I imagine that they would create a religion based on American history to preserve the knowlege of American laws and traditions through storytelling. And since it'd be like a decades-long round of the telephone game there would be quite a few differences. Since the first instinct of a storyteller is to make it bigger than life to make it more interesting, stories of the Founding Fathers would transform from being great men to essentially demigods.Monuments like the destroyed Statue of Liberty and Mount Rushmore would become idols to be worshipped. This religion would spread with the clans and word of mouth, and would be a polytheistic religion based on the Founding Fathers and other icons of American history. Yank 20:07, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

NotLAH: Holy Roman Empire
I noticed your comment on the NotLAH HRE talk page. Care to explain why it "makes no sense whatsoever"? Mscoree

Each of those states, with some exceptions, is run by everyday folk and survivors. Austria, which is not a republic, has decided to sort these small survivor states as "duchies" for simplicity. You are judging the old HRE. This one is a military alliance that is named like the old one. In times like these, these people need every bit of help and nostalgia to grab onto. Your one point you made when you chose to insult my idea was that it has no purpose, based on the old HRE, but clearly this one does have a purpose. Fancy words aside, kingdoms and duchies aside, it's just a military alliance. When you're done throwing around your knowledge and disses about the old HRE and have an actual suggestion, other than saying my idea is ludicrous, then write it on the talk page. Honestly, I'm just trying to make the game fun for the people in it, not "family-friendly", or pleasing to the man behind the curtain. From what I've seen that's how games like Scramble for Africa (Map Game) die. Mscoree (talk) 12:58, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to appreciate my ideas being called ludicrous next time. Apparently that passes for helpful feedback now-a-days. Since using that name is impossible maybe I'll change it, since it's your map game after all. Mscoree (talk) 12:34, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Kaisers age.

hey i am wondering who wrote that storey called kaisers age.in which britain loses ww1.and then a man called winston churingman takes power in britain and starts ww2/.

Your Name
Your profile says to ignore it, but I must ask. That's from the Legend of Zelda, isn't it? Ganon? If so, do you have any other names you would have used?

I ask because I wanted to include you on the Althistory Wiki page in my timeline, considering you are among the most well-known users. However, I plan on having Japan in a Cold War so to speak with America during the 1980's, probably preventing the Legend of Zelda from being released here, maybe even from being created. So, in this hypothetical scenario, what would you have picked as a name? If Lordganon has nothing to do with that at all, tell me also. Thanks for your time (I know I've used a lot of it).

Doctor Evulz (talk) 00:29, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Source code problems: night of the living alternate history
Hi. You appear to be online as I type judging by edit history. Would you mind taking a look at the Night of the living alternate history map game. There's something wrong with the source code, it's too compllex even to display visualy not just editing from the looks of things.

Thanks,

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 09:43, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Figured it was something along the lines of that but my code editing skills suck so i d'dn't want to mess it up futher. Seems simple now!

David Rain (Sometimes...) (talk) 08:18, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Never Unified China
I have checked Alexlee8991's user talk and it turns out he's blocked. Hence, can I adopt his timeline-Never Unified China?Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 08:20, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

What rules do you imply? Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 08:20, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Hacked?
The chat went funny and about 20 people were on it, then when they all left, the bit that says who is on it went weird, and some people got 'shurkbuster' as a user, but others didn't, then when they clicked on it it went to G greg e, but Old Baby could see both, so they weren't the same, then G greg e left, then Deli got a virus alert from norton, were we hacked? Local (talk)

UAE and Bermuda
Greetings. Been a while, hope you are doing well.

Hope you don't mind me asking for a quick clarification. I have been working on the a list of Britannic possessions, and I was doing more reading on the UAE. I believe you mentioned that the emirates would on their own become crown colonies of the UC. However, I came across that much of the British-controlled territories in Arabia (pre-WWI) were protectorates for the most part.

Given the complexity of the region, wouldn't it make more sense for them to remain a protectorate (more or less like OTL's UAE with more British backing). If now, why do you think they would support further integration with the UC? Did the Emiratis want something like this OTL? I do know the country (OTL) has a large Indian population, could this be a deciding factor? Just curious.

Also, I came across an interesting fact today and it got me thinking. It likely not possible in any workable way, but I feel it is worth a second opinion. I came across that Bermuda was originally included in the Virginia Company. Also from what I have read so far, the Bermudans at the time were more pro-American and may have been the "14th state" (so I've heard). Population and distance were major factors to it remaining British.

My thoughts are on whether Bermuda could possible, somehow become part of Virginia. Already, I'm sure you think this is BS (sounds that way now that I am typing it in). But with the US gone, Virginia fighting a war with the UK over the Northwest Territory, and Bermuda not having much value to the British (aside from being a base), I was wondering whether these could be factors that might affect this. My idea (if it makes any sense) is that Britain agrees to hand over Bermuda as part of the peace treaty that ends the Northwest War (in which Virginia looses half of its claimed territory); with the Brits not seeing it as a major requirement (given no US, weak successor states, and the fact that the islands were not developed) and the islanders probably supporting it.

I'm sure it is a sucky, whimsical suggestion with no historic backing or sense. So please go easy on me. Either way, made me read about Bermuda. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:10, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for the feedback. Yes, I am doing well (as well as one can be I suppose).


 * Thank you for explaining South Arabia to me. However, I was more interested in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Am I to assume they are in the same situation as South Yemen? Though this now give me a follow up question. If there's going to be a "Federation of South Arabia" acting as a crown colony, what of the UAE/Trucial States? I remember you mentioning that each emirate would be on their own. However, couldn't a UAE-like federation be made as a crown colony? Or were the emirates there too disconnected to support such an arrangement under these circumstances? Since we are on the subject, what of Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, and Qatar? I would assume if the UC gains Iraq, Jordon, and Palestine ATL (part of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire) they would not be anything more than protectorates.


 * I knew it was a long shot, but it would've bothered me had I not brought it up. Sounded more plausible than another idea I had of NN purchasing Alaska. Also, what do you mean by "more amplified"?


 * Always happy to get feedback on my flags. An Iroquois chain? That is an amazing idea, and I will add it right away. Thank you so much. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:28, June 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I just thought of a potential new territorial expansion for NN that I would love to get your two cents on (seems more plausible than Bermuda or Alaska). I recalled that Ecuador considered selling the Galapagos Islands OTL, with the US being a likely bidder. The US had some interest in the islands because they could act as a base to protect the Panama Canal. While the Nicaragua Canal (which NN helps build and protect) is in a different region, Ecuador may show interests in selling the islands ATL (especially after fighting a war of independence only decades prior) and NN would likely be the first bidder. Do you think this could be a possibility? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 03:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Please forgive me, but I am a little confused as to what you are saying for South Yemen (you seem to be flip-flopping on me). Just to see if I got this right... Federation of South Arabia would be a crown colony, the Protectorate of South Arabia becomes a protectorate. Am I right?

I am interested in your Greater Syria idea. Though if I may suggest, could the rump Iraq (Baghdad state) be a part of this state? Since Iraq OTL was also ruled by a Hashemite and this rump Iraq being a landlocked nation, wouldn't it make sense to have them merge into such a state? Otherwise, a Kurdish state and Iran/Persia taking the Shia areas sounds alright to me.

In the long run, let me see if I got this right. The British have OTL Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, and the Aden regions of Yemen. Kuwait, Oman, Palestine, and eastern Yemen are protectorates of the British (would Lebanon be a protectorate of France?). "Iraq" is partitioned between between Persia, a Greater Syria, and a new Kurdish homeland (Kurdistan would also include all the other parts you mentioned). Syria includes the majority of the Levant and the Red Sea coast (including Mecca). Would this Greater Syrian state also include OTL North Yemen, or would they gain independence?

Not quite sure what you are trying to say with the Galapagos. You think NN could've taken them earlier? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:36, June 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have updated my map, and currently in the process of creating a more detailed version. So some of of the borders are not completely set in stone &mdash; rather a rough estimate.


 * Quite interesting to read about Lebanon (never quite looked into it before). Though I do have a question to help better my understanding. Why would Europe be so inclined to carefully draw borders for Lebanon to assure no conflict (especially since they did such a good job OTL). Am I to assume without the Ottomans being on the side of Germany ATL that there would not be any aggression towards drawing the borders? Aside from that, I used this map as a reference (my map excludes the two large Shia pockets and the Christian area at the south, but keeping the rest).


 * As for Palestine, not quite sure how much of Jordan to include. For this map, I included the are east of the Jordan river, creating a Golan Heights-sized corridor as the border (if that makes any sense).


 * Quite confused as to why "Hejaz and Syria" would become a naming issue (especially since OTL it was called "Nejd and Hejaz"), but it also depends on where the capital would be. Though I am quite curious as to why these two regions would've become united. Mind if I get your two cents? Other than that, I think I can manage the rest.


 * I am very excited to hear that the Galapagos can be NN's, but quite puzzled as to the loophole you have brought to my attention. I guess it's possible for NN to have early claims, but I don't think they should officially annex the islands until the late 1800s (during their imperial hype). Quite the puzzle.


 * Here is a quick timeline that I would like to get your two cents on. With Spain (and hopefully Britain) not interested in them, NN (and NE) would move in and use them as a whaling base. They islands would remain officially unclaimed land until the 1880s (or at the earliest the 1860s) when NN officially annexes them (during the chaos of the revolutions there). Sound okay to you? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:55, June 9, 2013 (UTC)



I have updated the map, hope it looks alright.

One of the reasons I stated it was interesting to read about Lebanon was because of its border redrawing and the fact that it is a Christian nation (or was meant to be). I think the border I drew (which is based on your suggestion) is alright. I also did your "West Bank" idea in Jordan. I also added the southern parts of OTL Lebanon into Palestine (since they would have been an enclave otherwise).

Makes sense for Hejaz, but why would they take over Syria in the first place? My only guess would be they "liberate" those areas from European interests. Am I on the right track?

Ignore the fact that the Trucial States and South Arabia are not divided (I will add those borders later on). I would also like to be sure that you said South Arabia would be divided into three independent protectorates, right?

Taking from your "lol", am I to assume you would like to see a complete Kurdish unification. I thought of it, though I can't think of a surefire scenario where this could work. My only thoughts turn to Russia (who would dominate this part of the the continent). Given Russia's sphere of influence in this part of Persia, maybe they nudge this new border to happen? Since we are on the topic, you did mention Russia would include a bit of Iran. Do you think they might try and include more than a bit? I know the Russians had influence over the Caspian Sea, do you think they may simply annex the coat? As for how far they would annex, I would probably say no more than the Caspian coast, and possibly including the Turkic parts (Azeris and Turkmens). But I don't know.

Sounds alright with the Galapagos. However, I don't think (rather don't support) the idea that the islands would be less populous. Ignoring the fact that I like the idea of this becoming a kind of settler colony for NN, I would think given the larger population of NN that there would be somewhat of a migration to the territories. The Galapagos would be the safest and most successful area to move to. While I didn't picture it to have a larger population, I sure wasn't expecting it to have a smaller one either. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:30, June 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the long delay, but I think I had a crash and need to take a break from this topic (I think you can understand). I will come back to the Middle East soon, but I wanted to take a different look at an old topic. Re-reading your comments and looking more into how the history may come out, I think I want to eliminate the division of Cyprus. If I am reading you correctly, you seemed to state it could go either or. Given the chaos that the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire would bring (particularly between Russia and Western Europe), I would think that Greece could easily take the whole island with little Turkish opposition or Greek caring. I think I am reading it correctly, but feel free to correct me. I look forward to your response. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:51, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response. I didn't realize the Turkish population had shrunk, but it doesn't surprise me. But timeline-wise, I don't really find much interest in dividing the island (especially into three). From how I am seeing it now, Greece would acquire the area (along with other areas) in the "dissolution war." Combined with (likely) no British rule, I don't really see Greece worrying about any Turks on their new lands, and the Turks wouldn't be able to challenge them.

For me, keeping the island united and incorporated into Greece shows more interest. While no war on the scale of OTL, I show interest in how the Gecco-Turkish relations would work on the islands, and possibly lead to tensions. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Das Vaterland
Hello,

I was just wondering about your categorising of Das Vaterland as biased. Do you believe that any surviving Nazi Germany is impossible? I was planning on changing the government further down the line.

The B (talk) 12:14, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Navigation Box??
Hi there, I was hoping you could help me out. For my Alternate History I have a number of various pages I want to be all linked up. I was wondering if you could send me a link on a page that tells me how to make a navbox template? Thank you!

Natives and european germs
question roughly how many generations would it have taking for the natives of the new world to get some sort of natural defences against european diseases? just out of curiousity because im working on a part of my time which i need that information for.Nkbeeching (talk) 17:31, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

ps thanks in advance for any info you can give me.

its for the new world part of my tl the spanish are occupied in europe sincefrnce is no longer the  dominnt power, and this stall their colonization by a few decades, instead french refugees are the ones who come into contact with the aztecs and form a sort of cordial relation with them, i currently having the azte empire suffering massive plagues but slowly transforming the aztec tributary stat into something a little more advanced (not by much yet but enough to withstand future spanish attempts to conquer then) and just a tiny immunity is enough for me if it means that they dont all die out by the time anoculations come out its all good. ihave the aztecs going through several revolts by those who resist the reforms, andthe french teaching the aztecs about metal casting and european agricultural praactises along with selling hem some horses, still havent had them trading fire arms but that will come later.Nkbeeching (talk) 10:03, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

alright ill see what changes i can make but what i eplained about the timeline is slightly out of context,is their any way for a native state to survive in meso america? if not ill have t oscrap my entire new world part and start  new one. its for my A darker place timeline, ive been trying to be plausible as much as possible and i think ive done a good job so far. Nkbeeching (talk) 16:44, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

ps ive been using non asb tl as reference for my aztec survival, includig a few of the featured ones.

alright ill see what i can do would a mixed people be able to hold their own? im not refering to the french, the french in my timeline are moving in small trickles that will eventually grow in OTL Gran Colombia, ill probably have the aztecs survive the first attempt by the spanish to conquer to conquer them but the next failing to and being absorbed into the spanish empire due to to fue being left to fight them, and unable to fight them anymore. i just think its a waste to get rid of all the material ive amde up till now and i would have to some minor adjustments to the western euro timeline. would it be possible for the aztecs to survive until atleast 1650, without major spanish attempts to conquer them, ill then have them cllapse and become the latest adition ot te spanish empire until the age of inddependence comes about. Nkbeeching (talk) 12:24, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

alright ill see howi change it up but the spanish are the only ones who have any real interest or capacity to conwuer the region in my tl the English are busy and overstretched expanding in north america and focusing all their effort on the spice route trying to get into asia, and the german people are just to busy destroying each other, could a series of smaller nutuatl states surge up in the place of the aztecs atleast like the zapotec, the mexica, and the Tlaxcala, with them either fallin to the spanish or moving north anf restarting a state in OTL Northern mexico southern USA, with the limited knowledge they gined from intereation with the spanish and from the french? Nkbeeching (talk) 10:53, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

ps dont forget the snatives in southern chile survived well into the 19th century.

well a few decades is all i need for the spanish, the french government has no capacity to establish a colony at thi point, the refugee settlements were created by individual merchants, and nobles who coould afford the coasts of the journey but after the two protestant wars france has been completey reduced to a meager shell of its former self under the shadow of a united spain, in my Tl steps are taking by the catholic kings to bring about a united crown instead of seperate kingdoms, and the loke i said the danes, the swedes and the germans are completely occupied ripping each pther apart. The Russians are breathing down the turks nrck and i doubt the turks could establish any new world colonies with haing to deal with the europeanss, i could have a few italians go there it would allow for a mixed italian, spainsh colony, since the italians are under spanish influence, that or the english attmpt to take it but lose the colon soon after.Nkbeeching (talk) 10:25, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

it has taking the spanish over 100 years, my western europen tl is already in the year 1640, im planning on expanding it soon enough, with out the french the spainsh conquered naples and have been exerting extensive influence over all the italian states except venice, though they no longer control the dutch which is under english control after the second protestant war, again the french are focused on  OTL Grand Colombia, though ill keep in mind the italians despite them being under spanish influence they still remain amongst the richest in europe. the english are largely interested in north america and the orient. that i wont changeNkbeeching (talk) 12:56, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

ill see what i do with the new world timelime, on the topic of the rest ive bee nspacing things out and have retained a non biased, the italians states are conqured by the spanish rather influenced by them after the first protestant, and in OTL England was offered tthre crown of thwe Neatherlands, elizabeth refused it thats why the remained independent though would have likely seperated soon after OTL i have worked with that after the second protestant war with the tudor house intergrating the house of orange the dutch are an assosiated state of England, it isnt asb and i have been working as much as i can to make the TL plausible, again ill work on the New World but i have the Euro Timeline good. well either way thanks for the help ill keep it in mind for mesoamerica. Nkbeeching (talk) 12:31, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

thanks again for the help.

ill keep that in mind also its a different history line and the english had been at war with spain already and the been supporting the dutch much more then OTL, well either way im  going to see what changes i do, this case it is more of the queen of the lowlands marrying into the tudor family which was similar to what happened in spain OTL and what happened with Nurgundy, it is still an independent state but under the tudor crown, ill still look things over either way but still thanks for the help one way or another, much appriciated

alright i made the aztec ramnents collapse soon after the reformation process began and it has been absorbed into the spanish empire.. where else can i adjust the tl to avoid ASB status. Nkbeeching (talk) 20:00, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

kk thanks again for the help, but what if put in already is plausible?

Account-Email Connection
Hello Lordganon, this is Hlanus. I seem to be having some problems with my email address, because I am not getting any emails on changes to my pages anymore. Just today, Ninjavswarriors edited one of my pages, but nothing showed up on my email account. I am asking you because I do not want this to happen again. Could it be that the wiki forgot my email address? Unlikely, but it is the only thing I can think of. Please answer back as soon as possible. Hlanus (talk) 01:06, June 13, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

So I guess I just have to live with it I suppose. Hlanus (talk) 15:45, June 13, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Hello again. Just so you know, I had some security issues a short while ago, and I am changing all my passwords and my email links. I want to change my email address on my wiki account here because I will soon be closing the email account that corresponds to it, but I am not sure if that is an option. My main concern is that I will lose my account here if I close the email account without changing my wiki account. Please answer back as soon as possible. Thanks for your time. Hlanus (talk) 04:13, June 22, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Thanks for your help. Have a good weekend. Hlanus (talk) 17:24, June 22, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent
Hey! Why'd you undo all of my work? I spent a couple hours on that, and you just undid it? Why don't you let me do what I am panning on doing? I am gonna redo that page, the MediFleet page, and the International Health Organization page, then ask for their approval. Reximus55 (talk) 12:04, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

So, can you put it back? And also, how do you know anything about any of those organizations when they are all 3 paragraphs tops. Just put my stuff in, please? I really would like to add that to my list of what I can show I have done. I think my IFRC is a pretty neat thing. Don't you? Reximus55 (talk) 12:18, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Can you ask the community if they are ok with it? What does this contradict? I will solve it. Reximus55 (talk) 12:21, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Dear Lordganon
I noticed you deleted a few of my pages for Battle for Earth: Prime, despite me writing on the talk pages that they were temporary, and more content would be added later.

Please stop deleting pages that are necessary to this timeline. If you must keep deleting my pages at least explain why. Mscoree (talk) 20:59, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, what do I do instead? As it turns out I wouldn't have had to make a redirect if you had deleted the pages I actually marked for deletion. Mscoree (talk) 13:08, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay I don't know if you're trolling me, but you don't see anything marked for deletion because you deleted it. Mscoree (talk) 13:41, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Now you've deleted both pages, and the content on them. Do you at least have the decency to warn me before deleting a page I worked hard on? Mscoree (talk) 13:39, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Now what am I supposed to do to prevent you from deleting it this time? Mscoree (talk) 13:43, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

And you deleted the pages again. For the record thanks for being the most unhelpful administrator on this site. I still don't know how to fix this, and I'm going to keep creating the pages until you actually care to answer my questions. Mscoree (talk) 23:24, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Deletion
Hello, recently you deleated my UR Hegemony template? Could you please recover that for me. It was a work in progress, and while similar to the URNotLAH template I use now, was to be used on other nations that the UR influences and has control over in NotLAH. Thanks for your help. G greg e (talk) 14:05, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

Please respond and restore it when you get a chance. Thanks. G greg e (talk) 02:42, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Query
I am admin on another site, and was wondering how you check IP addresses, because I want to check someones Local (talk)

Hi, I tried that, and got confused, I was wondering if you could be kind enough to ask them to check the IPs of 'Emperor Romanus' and 'Aragorn61' please Local (talk)

RE: your message
'''Sigh... Really LG you put THAT in,? tsk,tsk'''

LG,  you put the correction back in without talking to ANYONE. Something I DID do.

i asked South if he intended to spell it that way after posting a link showing  EoGuy's edit. i mean realy this WAS a MINOR issue between editors, one of which happened to be an admin, it did not require YOU gitting invloved. but i am sure YOU will dissagree, let me correct that i KNOW you wiill so you can save your time on that point.

I thought wikia ( and this one in particulier) has an assume good fath policy? By the tone of the comment's  you left on my page you must have chose to set aside this policy. what i realy want to say, could you have not just asked what's going on first?i mean realy you know if the issue HAD been bad enough i would have came to YOU, i mean come on they was no need for the tone you took with me.

Wingman1 14:58, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the advice Sameva555 (talk) 08:11, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

I'm having some template troubles. Ever since I came to Wikia, I've been wondering how to create my own templates for country infoboxes, instead of having to copy of other people's or using the one provided by the Wikia itself. How do you create your own template first of all? When writing articles about wars, I want to make my infobox look grey with the text in black, just like they appear on Wikipedia not a blue box with white text. I'd like some help. FilipinoMan (talk) 09:29, June 23, 2013 (UTC)FilipinoMan

Susquehanna Steam Electric Station (Nuclear Power Plant)
LG, since I am from NE PA, and about 25 miles from Susquehanna Nuclear Power Plant, could I do an article on the fate of this facility. It is about 35-40 miles from Wilkes-Barre. I think it would be interesting, considering it probably would have survived, being commissioned 1 year before the POD. Daeseunglim (talk) 01:53, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Another point is, right now PPL has 2 nuclear reactors there on site. On September 26, 1983 there was only 1 reactor in use. The other was commissioned on June 27, 1984. The first was activated on November 12, 1982. Thanks! Oh yah, so I don't mess it up, I name it: Susquehanna Steam Electric Station (Doomsday: 1983)? Daeseunglim (talk) 12:22, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Technical Question
Hello LG,

I've been thinking about this for a while now and, having not found a solution, I'm wondering if you may have one.

In my nation pages for my TL, I have put in the Nation infobox and filled in. However, no matter what I put into the "HOS title" section, it always ends up as a hyperlink to "List of Xs of Y land". For example, in my French Empire page, when I put "Emperor" in the appropriate section, it always ends up as a hyperlink to "List of Emperors of the French Empire (page does not exist)". I have already made a page which I would like the word "Emperor" in the infobox to link to, but no matter what I try it does not work.

Do you have any idea how I could make a link that worked? Links in other sections of the infobox work (like in the Organisations section), is this particular section special?

Thanks, Callumthered (talk) 12:18, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

It worked! Thank you very much for solving my minor quandary, it's been nagging me ever since I made my first Nation infobox. Callumthered (talk) 08:28, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

CSA
There is a storey on this wiki in which the CSA wins the civel war because the British help them.it lead to tho americas the USA and the CSA.there are both invloved in the world wars However the CS loses ww1.And somwone like hitler takes power in te CSA and starts ww2.do you know what storey this is.can you find it forme please.

RA question
Hope you have been doing well. Not quite sure whether it is going to happen or not, but I have been getting interested in Russian America again. While I have had this question on my mind for months now, I feel I wanted to get your honest opinion on it, because I have been questioning the timeline for a while.

From what you have read and helped out on, do you thin this timeline is ASB or implausible? After learning more topics and viewpoints for 13 Fallen Stars, I have been questioning the timeline a little bit, but I am not quite sure if it is really implausible or me just nitpicking. I would love to just get some reassurance on this, but given that you have helped out so much and not questioned anything about the POD or such, I hope I am nitpicking. I know this sounds stupid, but I had to ask. So please forgive me for this.

Off topic, I noticed that I am no longer alone in the nuclear plant articles in Doomsday. I know it is early, but I wanted to know if it would be alright to create a nuclear power category once this page is canonized. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:10, July 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear it. But given the new insights I have learned, I do think I am going to have to do a major overhaul to the timeline (which I look forward to). I have a few ideas I may look into, and a few pages to correct. But I will get to all of that at some point, and I look forward to your opinions on a couple of them.


 * Nice to know. How would "Category:Nuclear power (1983: Doomsday)" sound? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:18, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Hello
Hello, Lordganon, you are quite the most skilfull writer here, so I would like your opinion on my timeline. Yesterday I noticed that some other user has left a message some time ago on the talk page of the main Great Empires page. He wrote something like "Imperialism wank", which I don't really understand. The meaning of that word is according to wiktionary something that has nothing to do with history or "rubbish, nonsense, bad things". I hope he doesn't mean that. And why is my timeline exactly ASB? Does this mean my timeline does not qualify for eventual future featured timeline nomination? And why is my timeline biased?

Biased?
In my timeline many countries are monarchies, however only 20 (out of ± 50 nations in total, some forgotten to list in the list of nations) are empires (2 of those are caliphates, not real empires and some of those empires are constitutional, not absolute), the rest are kingdoms and republics. There are timelines where half of the nations are empires, I think one of those (or more) are featured and have as many empires (in percent) as my timeline. I hope you understand me, cause I really don't see a reason to continue putting effort in this timeline, if it is not considered eligible to be featured in the future.

Good evening,

I saw this website and I am glad to be on it. I have been working on building cities on Minecraft and thought I would use this page to create a backstory for them. This is now the second time (I presume) you have tried to take my progress off of the site, and I ask that you stop. I am an incredibly busy man- preparing for my upcoming semester while working an overnight shift among other things, and what little time I have left to spare I like to let my imagination roam free. Because I have such little time, I cannot possibly spend every waking moment trying to keep my work as perfect as possible, which is what I am currently being accused of. I will do my best to ensure I am not tainting the image of this site, but please understand that I am just an amateur trying to find a release for my vivid imagination. Since this is a page devoted to the concept of "what if", I ask that you stop trying to purge my creativity. Cheers.

Leckband (talk) 07:06, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Timeline abandoned
Sorry, but if my timeline isn't plausible and has no chance at being featured, I'm not motivated and do not want to continue further. I believed that my timeline was plausible, but you didn't, and who am I to challenge you? That was my main objective, but it seems I'm just a bad writer, so I officially abandon my timeline and put it up for eventual adoption. Feel free to do with it what you want. You won't hear anything from me anymore.

I am serious, I'm not overreacting, I hoped since I joined this site, that one day my timeline would be featured, but it will stay a dream. I'm literally almost crying in reality out of sadness.

Hi there,

You've nominated my page on the 1968 election for deletion conditional upon my not satisfying the "required quality demands." Needless to say, I haven't yet had the time to fully flesh out the presidential timeline I'm envisaging, but would you give some substantive indication of what you mean by this?

My thanks.

HJColeman (talk) 10:38, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

RE: ASB - Map Games
Well, I stand corrected. Sorry for the mix-up there.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 13:47, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Overreacting?
So I'm overreacting? You are not the one who had a dream that was suddenly destroyed by someone who claims your timeline is "implausible". I have spent hundreds of hours on this timeline and then you come and say: "Your timeline is implausible because there are too many surviving historical states, period, end of discussion". Boom! Dream destroyed! Think twice before you say something, I still believe that my timeline is plausible, but you don't, and I'm not going to argue with you because I'll lose anyway, you are in charge here. The only reason I joined this site was to make a timeline which would be featured sometime in the future, but if you won't let it happen, I see  NO  reason to continue writing hopeless texts which no one ever reads or considers "plausible". I'm pouring my heart out here right now, who do you think you are to say I'm overreacting? The last time I checked I was still myself and you were someone else. By the way not all states survived, many were destroyed and there are states that are mostly or complete the same in OTL as in my timeline, not that it is of any importance to you.

Expanding Pro Wrestling (1983: Doomsday)?
Hey LordGanon I've been  would it be possible if I could expand on the Pro Wrestling section of 1983: Doomsday? I have plenty of knowledge on Wrestling and Wrestlers. Thank ou for reading my comment.

LightningLynx89 (talk) 03:45, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Alternate History Memes??
Hey LG, I would like to get your opinion on a new "project" that OreoToast555 and Mscoree are working on. It's called "Alternate History Memes", and I'm not sure what to make of it. Personally, it looks like a waste of space and I think it should be removed. I have already made a discussion about it, but and I would love to get your mediation on it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 04:33, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

Just letting you know that Mscoree two unflattering uploads, as well as ignore a simple request. I blocked him for three days, but you are more than welcome to extend it. -- NuclearVacuum ( Talk ) 05:09, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea why he has done this, but Imperium Guy altered the block I gave to Mscoree. Didn't you tell me this was not allowed? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:48, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

--
Can you give me a link to sites in which i can create my own maps.luke  perry

RT II
Out of interest why is RT II labelled as Alien Space Bats? just in case there's some way I can get it away from that label. Kunarian TALK 12:40, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

I was hoping for something a little more detailed but okay, if that's how you feel. Kunarian TALK 14:02, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just out of interest, why did you remove 'for god and for glory'? It is a map game, and it isn't dead. Is there a rule I am missing, or is there a certain restriction on Roman/number of map games? Mafia (talk)

Coming back to this, more of what I was asking is was more of some ideas about how to have a world which is: largely decimated by nuclear war (or something else that's quite destructive), maybe lost some technologies (not vital) have a bit of time for that to fade and for new nations to form. A bit like Doomsday but maybe able to have more years before the present, but this isn't necessary.

I had (obvious) thoughts about it relating to a war that had gone too far, however I did want to know if you had any ideas. Kunarian TALK 10:38, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Hey
Hey man. What's up? Look, I know you are probably feeling very very annoying with all this Mscoree thing going on, but I need to talk to you about this.

A couple years back, you too were a new editor. You too had the wiki rules to learn. Now, you instantly became a fan of Doomsday: 1983, and the users respected it. You are one of the older on the wiki - and quickly adapted. Taking a great interest, you asked questions - to Mitro, Ben, South, the lot. Now, they were all fairly nice and talked to you. It did help that you had the history background most of us lack.

You contributed well, and rose through the ranks of the TSPTF. Since then, the mass categorisation of pictures and timelines seen on this wiki (lacking on most other ones) can all be said to be due to partially (hell, almost completely) you. You helped other users and told new timeline writers what their shortcoming was.

And then I arrived. I do still remember that argument on the India page of Doomsday. Its that argument I owe my ability to edit the UIP page with you. That is beside the point. The point is, I was a person who bugged you to the absolute core. And you kinda got annoyed with me. So annoyed, that South had to pop in and tell you that you should try to be more kinder to newer users. And you were fine for a while after that.

Yet overtime, as things progressed and the number of active admins decreased - more and mroe of the workload fell upon you. This had the effect of shortening your "kindness span". You got more aggressive as your arguments with users went on. True, they were probably not the easiest to get the point across, but rather than trying to sort it out by trying to be nice - you started to write paragraphs about how the user was wrong due to his opinion.

Another person that started off like me was Guns. It took a lot of time for you to trust him after he too argued with you a lot. True, he was the usual type of editor - the one who'll bug you with what he thinks is right (me XD) at the start when he joins, but it kept on getting more aggressive than it needed to be. Maybe, in situations like these, you should call upon other editors to explain your point - because if you are correct, then you should not worry that you need to keep on arguing your point. As many voices become one collective one.

Moving on to the recent Mscoree thing. Now, this has taken a lot out of us all. I have been criticised by Nuke and you for my actions, for which the only defence I post is I did what I thought was correct. Earlier on than this, you had a thing with him about redirecting broken links and the likes. This is where a third view would have been beneficial. We would have not had Ms blocked. Look, he is new(ish) to the wiki - and a simple template problem should not have reuslted in a ban. You did try to tell him, but all an observer can see is highlighted words.

Therefore, all I advise you to do is try to be nicer to new users, try to get other users to try to help you get your point across, rather than making it look like you are being an aggressor. We know you are trying to look out for the wiki, but in the process you end up annoying many users. Small things like trying to dumb down what you are trying to say, or explaining in slight detail the point you are trying to make (which you do well, so its mainly the dumbing down, lol).

Please, try to do so. I am a user who admires you highly, but I do also think that there are aspects that you can change so this is a nicer environment for new editors. Thanking you,  Imp (Say Hi?!) 23:48, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Königsberg
I am just letting you know that I came across Category:Königsberg and felt that the material should be included in Category:Kaliningrad because the only difference was the name (no other categories seem to follow this).

I was just about to delete the category when I realized that I previously attempted to do this, and you reverted it all on me. I honestly forgot I did this (and it was exactly a year ago). Rather than start an issue (like Micronesia), I am letting you know what I have done, if you continue to insist on two categories then I will revert what I have done on my own. But I will leave it as is on the grounds you may have changed your mind. If you have, you are welcome to delete the category. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 19:34, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Charlemagne and Irene
I found something interesting the other day; Charlemagne almost married Irene of Athens, which would have politically fused the HRE and Byzantine Empire together. When I do timelines, I try to do things that are original and I'm not sure if people make ATLs about this a lot. Have you seen a lot of timelines with Charlemagne and Irene getting married? CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 00:18, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Looks like it's time to crank out the timeline. Thank you! CrimsonAssassin- "You can't handle this egg roll" 01:08, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Macedonia in New Union
How did you even come across it? I purposely hid it because I wasn't ready to discuss it, and I completely forgot about it because of other edits. Can't lie, I am impressed.

You can probably guess that I am not happy about the answer (especially since Yugoslavia has gone through multiple changes to only have it turn into OTL, more or less), but I can't argue with the facts. But there is little I am going to do about it as of now, I will wait until I get back into the timeline to correct anything (the whole page needs to be redone anyway). But I thank you for you help in the matter.

I will also be giving you a heads up, I have a potential change for Russian America in mind that would be pretty big, but I believe it would be possible given the situation of the timeline and geography involved. I will bring it up with you later on, but I am just letting you know that something is coming.

Also once again, I do apologize for the Königsberg-think (I truly forgot about it). I will revert it in a while. I know you just said otherwise, but maybe making a new category called "Königsberg-Kaliningrad" might be an interesting alternative. But you would be right on that they might a well be two different cities. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:28, July 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * No need to worry. If anything, I am more surprised that you not only watch my sandbox, but also check all revisions. If anything, I am honored. But I will also keep it in mind for the future.


 * Like I said before, I will work on Macedonia later on, especially because that page needs to be cleaned-up big time (I think there is still elements of when Srpska was canonized as part of Yugoslavia). Though the only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that you stated that Macedonian was only part of Serbia for a few years before WWI. However, they were a part of Serbia much longer than either Montenegro or Vojvodina. While this changes nothing, it just seems... odd.


 * Not sure when I will bring it up, but probably in a few days. I look forward to your response on it.


 * Well what's done is done, I will try not to forget this time. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:07, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

RE: Pressure
It's not that big of a deal, i've been considering nixed ideas for my own mapgame, i was told that it wasn't "Alternate History", of which i agree with. OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 16:52, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Not so Goode
There's a user called Dave Goode who's made a new TL called JFK Survives...except he hasn't made a portal page, and has added some people who died pre POD...

On the other hand, I just talked to him and he said he wanted to make parody pages, just calling them JFK survives to make sure he knew they were his. I told him to make blogs for his parodies.

Right, I know. I contacted you directly after him, so hadn't his reply yet.

Spam
When I left the messages, I didn't really consider them as spam. I only contacted people who had expressed an interest in the idea, barring Chris and Nuke. I contacted Chris and Nuke because someone mentioned they might be interested. Chris was, and I already saw that Nuke labeled it as spam. Sorry, won't happen again. CourageousLife (talk) 05:00, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Template:Infobox former country problems
Hello, I am creating a new article Aswad Sultanate. Here's a problem, whenever I ender a person's name under the leader1 box, and then the years of reign in the leader 1 years, it's okay and does as it should. When it do it to leader2 and leader 2 years, it distorts it.

Anybody beyond leader #1's name appears right under the first leader's years of reign, and appears like this:  - style="padding-left:0;text-align:left;"|2013 (claimant) on the infobox. Why's it doing this?

FilipinoMan (talk) 07:37, July 19, 2013 (UTC)FilipinoMan

OOC?
Just curious - what does OOC stand for?

EoGuy (talk) 11:23, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Hello again
After some time to meditate, to rest, to think, to accept and to let go I have decided to return to the wiki. I will continue to work on and improve my timeline, regardless of if my timeline will ever achieve featured status. I may also have acted rude, so I apologize for that. But I will try to convince you and prove that my timeline is plausible and unbiased. When I created this timeline I surely didn't intend to favor any side, just to create an interesting and plausible timeline. I will try to explain.

States that both exist in RL and my timeline
This states are nations that exist both in real life and my universe, they are completely or largely the same
 * Canada (republic in my timeline, mostly the same)
 * United States of America (the same with the exception of some no existant states occupied by Native America)
 * Venezuala (the same, but also includes Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana)
 * Argentina (completely the same, no changes)
 * South Africa (the same but includes Namibia, Lesotho and Swaziland)
 * Botswana (no changes here)
 * Zimbabwe (same as above)
 * Mozambique (same as above)
 * Central African Republic (same but includes Cameroon)
 * Somalia (the same)
 * Morocco (mostly the same, same ruling house, still a monarchy but also includes parts of Algeria)
 * Spain (the same)
 * France (the same)
 * San Marino (the same)
 * Monaco (the same)
 * Netherlands (the same)
 * United Kingdom (the same but includes Ireland)
 * Denmark (same heads of state, still a monarchy but the union with Norway was never dissolved)
 * Sweden (never lost Finland to Russia, otherwise the same)
 * Bhutan (still a monarchy, though it is now an empire and is much larger)
 * Japan (mostly the same, but different head of state)
 * Australia (mostly the same, but a republic)

Historical states that existed in RL that survived in my timeline

 * Aztec Empire (defeated the Spanish)
 * Inca Empire (defeated the Spanish)
 * Empire of Brazil (instituted reforms and empire survived, albeit as a constitutional monarchy)
 * Kingdom of Kongo (resited the attempted Portuguese colonization)
 * Songhai Empire (defeated the Moroccans at the battle of Tondibi and resisted colonization)
 * Madagascar (was still colonized by France but later declared independence as a kingdom)
 * Abbasid Caliphate (successfully survived and did not crumble, defeated the Mongols at Baghdad)
 * Persia (was still destroyed but later declared independence)
 * Portugal (survived as a kingdom by democratizing)
 * Holy Roman Empire (was still defeated by Napoleon, but was restored afterwards)
 * Poland-Lithuania (survived Russian and Holy Roman attacks with the help of Rome and Sweden)
 * Roman Empire (the western empire was still destroyed in 476, the eastern in 1188, replaced by the Georgian Empire, but consequently renamed as the and deemed as the successor of the Roman Empire)
 * Russian Empire (Tsar Nicholas II wasn't assassinated but due to the people's hatred for him, his daughter Anastasia became Tsarina and reformed Russia)
 * Mongol Empire (survived, but weakened over the course of history)
 * India (Maurya Empire did still collapse, but empire was re-established following the overthrow of the Mughal Empire)
 * Singhala (resisted Portuguese colonization following a strong kingdom established by King Parakramabahu I)
 * Tibet (established dominance over Tibet and Central Asia and defeated China, surviving until today)
 * China (original empire was destroyed by the Mongols but was re-established in 1961)
 * Korea (resisted attempted Japanese invasion)
 * Burma (was destroyed but later re-established)
 * Khmer Empire (dominated Mainland Southeast Asia and resisted colonization)
 * Nusantara (dominated Maritime Southeast Asia and resisted colonization)

States that never existed in RL or whose existence is controversial
As you can see (if I'm not mistaken), there are exactly 22 states that exist in both RL and this timeline, 22 historical states that survived and 8 states that never existed in RL but do in this timeline. I think there is an equal distribution, sure there are quite some surviving states, but I'm sure there are some featured timelines that have a comparable division like here. I hope this is enough for you to deem my timeline as plausible and unbiased. I surely did not intend to favor any side, and I do not favor any side, this is the truth, regardless if you believe it or not. Friendly greetings, Civciv5.Civciv5 (talk) 14:10, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Caribbean (confederation of autonomous nations)
 * Native American Federation (formed in the 17th century to defeat the European invaders)
 * Flanders (never formally a unified nation, but became one in 2013 by declaring independence from the Netherlands)
 * Kitara Empire (went on to create a centralized empire and resisted colonization with the help of Kenopia)
 * Kenopia (formed by Shajar al-Durr in the 13th century and claims to be the true caliphate)
 * Lyrobia (break-away state from Morocco formed in the late 18th century)
 * Maya Kingdom (kingdom formed by King Pacal II, defeated the Spanish)
 * Oceanian Empire (originally founded by King Kamehameha I, resisted colonization)

Kaiser age.
i wish this had what ww2 would have been.have you read this storey.

Show/Hide Code
Hello,

I was wondering if you could explain to me on how to implement show/hide code, specifically in a template. If it is not on this wikia, can we begin steps to implement it if it is not difficult to add to the common code file?

Best Regards and thanks for your time and dedication, G greg e (talk) 08:11, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

I am looking to create a collopsable template/navbox, as seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NavFrame or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Collapsible_tables

Thanks for any help you can give,

G greg e (talk) 08:30, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

ASB? OK. But biased...
So I can understand why you believe that it could be ASB. But biased? There is at least one featured timeline which is ASB, so I will accept that because I presume that's not an obstacle to achieve my goal of featured status. (Or is it?) However, the word "biased" is. But you didn't say the word "biased" in your last message, did you? Which states do you actually think that can't exist together in one timeline? Aztec+Maya? China+Tibet? Others? Also which states do you believe had zero chance to survive until present day? Native Americans? Holy Romans? Arabia? Others? Please tell me cause I will do whatever it takes to convince you that my timeline is "unbiased" if you still believe that it is "biased". Kind regards, Civciv5. Civciv5 (talk) 10:41, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Cracow
Can you please give me some guidance about how to improve the Cracow GDL Article please? -- 92.13.88.215 10:43, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Biased #2
But which? Which countries do you consider "implausibly large"? That isn't really a valid argument cause in this featured timeline both the Roman and Mongol Empires are ridiculously large each covering almost 25% of the total land area of the world, which is much larger than even the largest state, Russia in my timeline. I'm confident there are also large empires in other timelines. Also which countries do you think could not survive together or survive at all? Please list them, as I will  not  rest until you consider my timeline plausible and unbiased. I can explain everything and already have a vague explanation for most of the nations in my timeline, some nations in my timeline already have an explanation written in their "history" section. Eventually a will write one for all of them. Also I don't think any nation does have "no chance" to survive, it would be a little sad that nobody would use them in timelines then. When you list the nations you consider that cannot survive with another nation or survive at all, please also provide an explanation. Please don't say your decision is definite and there's no point in any further discussion. I have learned we must learn to be open, please give me and my timeline a chance. Civciv5 (talk) 13:15, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Community Messages
Do I have permission to edit community messages? Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:38, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Nothing much, just telling users to check out the Map Contest. It really is a great thing. Don't suppose you would like to get involved too? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:24, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

defeating britain andamerican post way situation
2 questions

to successfully beat britain it would have been necesary to cut there access to South america, south africa and the Suez right, to starvve them out?

and second what sort of post war gains woul the states look for, i thought abut them taking away France and Britains colonies in the central america, while breaking canada into Quebec and a republic in canada does this seem good.? Nkbeeching (talk) 15:24, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

That big idea that I hope will work out
As promised, here is my new idea for Russian America. I believe it should work, the geography and politics are there.

But before we discuss this, I just wish to refresh the situation that the Canadian Rebellions of 1837 are successful in ATL, with Upper Canada gaining statehood into the United States and Lower Canada gaining independence. I bring this up so as to avoid a repeat of what happened in 13 Fallen Stars or lead to another canonization being outdated. But if my memory serves me right, you gave me pointers on where the capitals of my two Upper Canadian states should be (so knowing you, you wouldn't have done this had you not found it workable).

Now for my big idea. Not sure the best way to express it, so I guess simple is better. In short, I wish to remove Borealia as an independent nation and instead have it incorporated into the United States (by means of peaceful purchase in the mid to late 19th Century).

Allow me to elaborate. While doing some research on the Canadian Rebellions, I came across a comment stating (to the affect) that with the Canadas gone, the UK might as well sell their claims (being the North-West Territory and Rupert's Land) to the United States. Without the Canadas, affective connection with the interior would be gone and the existing population was mostly natives and a few fur trappers. In short, the Brits would consider the region in a similar manner that the Russians saw Alaska OTL (that being it was too costly to keep a territory of very little gain), and sell it off before they potentially loose it in a future conflict that gives them no compensation.

The POD I have at the present would follow something like this: with the Canada's gaining independence (and with Upper Canada being incorporated into the US), tensions with the British become even more strained from OTL. With the outbreak of the Civil War, the British are more inclined to help out the Confederate cause a little more than OTL. All out support (troop deployment and recognition) is avoided for several reasons: including decreased need for Southern cotton (as Egypt and India were quickly becoming alternatives), growing pressure on helping a nation who would preserve slavery, but most importantly the threat that Russia, Mexico, and Canada (Quebec) would likely side with the US in an all out war. In affect, there was very little gain for the UK to completely side with the Confederates, but that didn't stop them from aiding them in many ways similar to OTL. (If I am way off, or I am overestimating, I do apologize and you can ignore this section).

With a Union victory comes further tensions with the British (as OTL). The Americans demand reparations from the British, and much like OTL the US would accept land. With it already being canonized that Columbia is sold to Russia, combined with growing costs and limited population, there should be more incentive for the British to agree to a compromise in which they sell the territory (probably in exchange for leaving Acadia and the Caribbean alone). Though if this particular POD isn't workable, than I am open to any alternatives.

This is my idea in a nutshell. I do believe it is workable, but I have looked at alternatives to check to see if I am not simply sugar coating the situation. If the British keep the territory (due to pride and snubbing the Americans [which wouldn't sound farfetched), it would be costly to keep it organized and protected with such few people at the time. With [British] Columbia and the Canadas gone, the only means of access (without buttering up to the Americans) would be Hudson Bay (though I think it is not overly reliable [especially since their is no large population around it OTL]). Railroads could be possible to keep the interior under Brisih control, though creating such a vast project for very little initial pay may not be worth it to the contemporaries. And with dissidents already existing within the territory (most notably the Metis), it seems like a lot of work that the Brits may be willing to let go.

I also know that you are Albertan, so forgive me if I have said something hurtful or if this idea doesn't gain your personal support. But that is pretty much it. It would change many aspects to the timeline. There are a lot of parameters that I wanted to check first, which is why I delayed bringing it up. But now that I am mentally canonizing this idea, I better bring it for a second opinion before it gets harder to un-canonize it in the event it is wrong. So I do hope this will work out. I look forward to your response. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:57, July 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * So it will not work. If at all possible, could there be any way to have such a scenario work? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:59, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Can't say that I am happy at another idea going nowhere. But thank you for your help. May I also make a request for the future. While you comment about glaciers was helpful, I would appreciate it if you would keep on topic when it involves an unworkable idea. While this one wasn't bad in any way, it only reminded me of times in which this was the case. I know you are only trying to help and I thank you for that, but to me that would only add insult to injury. But either way, thank you again, not sure what I am going to do now. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:36, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Cross-wiki banning?
Hi, I was on chat, and someone asked if, because I am admin on Map Games Wiki, and someone vandalised the pages there, it would be possible to have a system where if someone is banned for vandalism or something on there, they are banned on here as well, and vice versa I guess. I just thought I might ask if it was possible to set that up, and if it is feasable Mafia (talk)

Old Baby 2
Old baby 2 nomiated a page of mine for delecton and that was perfectly functioning for delition. He also deledted the wjole content. Can you revert the edit. Link Octivian Marius (talk) 22:11, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Hey, you did something to my PMII page (Brythonic Language). Why? Also can we revisit the Red Cross article, and you tell me what conflicts with canon so I may fix that? Finally, why would you advise against me being able to help with the Rise of Babel TL?

It's me again
You don't realize that it's NOT the "ASB" thing that annoys me, but the "biased" thing, I will do everything that is in my power to achieve the removal of the biased. Now I will try to prove that you are mistaken about thinking that the nations you listed are indeed possible to exist like they do in my timeline. So I can live the ASB thing, but NOT with the biased thing, I will continue discussing with you until the day that you remove that biased thing as I can't remove it myself (you could ban me!). I will not give up one my dream, I will get what I want, I may seem a bit annoyed and I am. But please do not be angry, I will accept the ASB thing, because that does not disqualifies my timeline for future featured status, but the biased does. If it DOES make my timeline ineligible, I will also contest that. This discussion is getting long, maybe we can discuss this somewhere else?
 * Bhutan: It might seem very large, but Bhutan was much larger in the past, got it from wikipedia see the Kingdom of Barantola part with the map, without the Qing dominance, which Tibet countered, Bhutan didn't lost these territories to other nations
 * Tibet was much larger in the past, also in real life
 * There is a featured timeline where the Aztec and Inca empires both do exist, I don't see why that wouldn't be possible in my timeline, if their foolish leaders Atahualpa and Montezuma II had not welcomed that Spanish as guests the Spanish could have been defeated and they could have modernized
 * As you live in the United States, you may be right, (Manifest Destiny), but I still deem it possible that the Natives could resist the Europeans if they had unified (20 million Natives vs less than 1 million Europeans or nut much more than that) Canada isn't part of the USA, so why can't another nation exist outside the USA in North America?
 * HRE? P-L Commonwealth? Why not? They were still conquered by Napoleon, but later re-established.
 * The Mongol Empire was very strong and even weakened was still a threat, I could see them surviving in a weakened state.
 * Why do you think both the Roman Empire and the Caliphates could not survive like that? With the Mongols meeting both a Roman and Arabian Empire could mean that they have to split their forces instead of focusing on Baghdad. Kenopia has no neighbours and has a high population and controls Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt, Europeans may think twice before they attack a large nation with a high population.
 * If the Songhai Empire had defeated Morocco at the Battle of Tondibi, they could have learned the secret of gunpowder and with that + their large population they could have defeated the Europeans
 * Same with the others, they could have modernized, if you say Ethiopia was the only one that could survive, Africa would look quite boring in many timelines

Please explain how it is against canon so I may fix it. Since Geneva was spared, the original Red Cross would still exits. <span style="border:3px solid blue; "> <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Reximus">Reximus   <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Talk">Maximus  10:54, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

You win
You kind of destroyed my last hope to ever see my timeline featured, which still makes me sad. Sometimes I think your views are Eurocentric, but I'm not going to argue anymore. Well I don't know what to do right now, I'm kinda confused. Should I abandon this timeline and start a complete new one where everything is the same except one nation which is European and because you think that would be the only way that a timeline is plausible, which would be incredibly boring and Eurocentric? No, that goes against all my beliefs. While you believe that my timeline is biased, I do not and I will never do. Well, it seems this may be the end for me, I'm not angry, just... sad...what is my goal even if I continue improving my timeline? Where am I going cause you will never deem my timeline eligible for featured status. There isn't even a category like "best timelines"? Only featured... I will never get any kind of recognition even if I have written thousand articles with enormous texts...Well, I don't know what to do right now, I may return or may not or occasionally edit some article, we will see what the future brings. Note:Please do not see this as insulting, I'm just very sad right now.Civciv5 (talk) 18:00, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Featured timelines removal
As you said, the Aztec, Maya and Inca civilizations could impossibly survive, all timelines in which one of these or more of them survives, cannot be featured and should receive the same treatment as my timeline.

These featured timelines include at least the survival of one of them beyond Spanish conquest in OTL: Also the Alternative History:List of Althists page isn't up to date, Papatlaca and Quetzalcoatl's World should be removed as they are no longer featured. I'm looking forward to the removal of these timelines as featured, as they should not receive special treatment.Civciv5 (talk) 07:51, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Vegetarian World
 * Chaos
 * Aztec Empire
 * Ætas ab Brian
 * Cabotia and Brasil
 * Superpowers

Chat Moderation
I was just wondering where i would go or who I would ask if I may join the wiki in chat moderation? OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 03:24, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, alright  OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 18:23, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Conventions
Can I add a part to the conventions in use in this wiki that states you shouldn't give out map game invites? Many users do this to advertise their map game because they don't know it's spam. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 14:56, July 30, 2013 (UTC)

Friendly reminder that I have started backtracking on the WCRB Newshour Page. If you find anything wrong, feel free to adjust it. Plus, you really need to archive this page, lol. ;D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:18, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

The end?
They DO have that content. Also I'm just annoying you because you continue to claim that my timeline is biased and I only write meaningless things. I'm already saying I'm one of the most stubborn and determined persons you will ever meet, I won't give up very easily. I'm also unable to continue my current timeline because I necessarily want to create a future featured timeline. But I'm also unwilling to create a new timeline because I don't want to completely invent a new idea and write countless articles over and over again. Please don't say I should just continue writing regardless of the featured status thingy, I can't help it, it's just who I am and I can't change who I truly am. Please do also not ban me. So I'm currently in an impasse where I will probably remain forever. This may be the end, I may never return, or maybe I will, I just don't know yet... Civciv5 (talk) 10:39, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Vegetarian World has the Inca Empire surviving
 * Chaos has the also the Inca Empire surviving
 * Aetas ab Brian has also Inka Empire surviving
 * Cabotia and Brasil has again the Inca Empire
 * Superpowers has the Mayan civilization and the Inca Empire surviving

Message from TheMaster001
Yeah, couldn't think of better title.

Anyways, I found five articles without timeline in its name: This, this, this, this and this. They have no timeline. What do you want to do with them? -- 17:59, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

P.S.: Sorry if I rushed at ya months ago.

Affiliation with the World War II Wiki
Hello Lordganon,

I would like to propose an affiliation with the World War II Wiki. With both of our wikis being centralized around history,  I believe that sharing affiliation links with each other will be helpful to both wikis with editors visiting and contributing to both projects. Anyway, I look forward to working with you in the future should things proceed. 03:37,8/4/2013 03:37, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

Why did you ban me for three days and remove all the updates I made to my alt history page on world war 2 saying that it was inaccurate!?!?! its an alt history page and it took me ages to write that...

I don't know why you nominated my page for deletion; it follows the timeline of Barack Obama assassinated.

List of Nations category?
I'm merely being curious, so I hope you don't mind me asking why you've removed this category from two of my timelines? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Really? Well... glad I could help out. I too was going to correct it, but it was more on the fact that there were two categories of this. The other is Category:Lists of countries. I was going to get rid of this one and replace it with the one you just deleted. Not sure if you would also like to get rid of this one as well. To be fair, I don't see anything wrong with having such a category that unites all the nations lists on this site. But that's just me. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:02, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Advice
Hi LG, how are you? I hope fine. Today the blocked User:Owen1983 has arrived to the spanish wikia (even he already began a article), and i want to ask your opinion. In view of his precedents in this wiki, I should block him immediately? Regards and thanks for your help. --Katholico (talk) 03:38, August 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks LG, I guess is Better safe than sorry :) I will block him then. Regards! --Katholico (talk) 19:46, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

Algorithm
What exactly do you want me to fix? There's nothing wrong with the algorithm regarding NATO versus South Africa. Mscoree (talk) 14:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Archive
Time to make one.

Creative spelling
Some of these kids do very creative writing.

Unfortunately, they also do very creative spelling.

Bil

EoGuy (talk) 18:14, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

South Africa
I don't believe you explain how to fix the algorithms, and if you did you weren't clear enough, because I still don't see anything wrong with them. South Africa agreed to the terms and the war is already over. I unfortunately can't revert two years because Imp's big brother told me to. Good luck, Mscoree (talk) 13:27, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Mscoree (talk) 13:50, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Guyanas and the Carribean
agai about my Lusitania Timeline, what would have been the most likely outcome for the newly annexed american territories would the have  eventually become states or remained territories similar to nowadays Puerto Rico.

Nkbeeching (talk) 15:42, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

alright i was planning on doing some changes anyways it was hard for me to understand as well, what rearrangements would you suggest.

I was thinking of creating an autonomous region in the guyanas under American Suzerainty something like the Phillipines before independence, like the British over sea territories which retain domestic autonomy, or based on the cuban model which the USA used in the post Spanish American war.

on another note, which flag would the Germany use its a democratic body for all purposes so i dont know weither or not it would retain the black white and red Flag or adopt a new one.

Nkbeeching (talk) 11:01, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

alright thanks, and last thing is the content any good up till now?

Nkbeeching (talk) 11:28, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

can you help me with South American Rising 2 (Map Game) Warman555 (talk) 13:44, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Help, please
hey i was wondering could you help me with my info box on this page = http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Nam_Republic_(Age_of_Asia) i cant get some things to show up and i dont know how to put the map in the info box. (You will see the map i want in it below it on the page) hope thats not too much trouble. thanks sincerley

(Masterire (talk) 16:00, August 27, 2013 (UTC))

Re:Ukrainian Alaskan Page
Well given that my Russian isn't as good as I would like it to be, I generally don't hesitate to mess with Russians correcting my grammar. But I do agree that his translation here looked off for me, but didn't wish to bother with it. But it now makes sense why you kept reverting it.

Either way, thank you. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:31, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Congratulations
Thanks, LG, I promise I will work hardly and laboriously as the TSPTF member for the betterment of this wiki. But, because I just entered the college yesterday, so, is it okay if I asking a permission from you for me being inactive until Saturday? FirstStooge (talk) 10:41, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Done. :) FirstStooge (talk) 10:02, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, LG. I will be as responsible as I can be and begin work ASAP.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#1C39BB 45%,#120A8F 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#000000), to(#FFFFFF)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #000000; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier">"Fear the power   <font color="#FF033E" face="Courier" title="Bvlog"> of the Dark Side of the Force."  16:46, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

just curious as to why the category page, Australian Republic, was deleted?Sameva555 (talk) 15:24, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for clearing that upSameva555 (talk) 15:25, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

German population
what would rough statistics of a greater germany's population be. i mean german empire plus austria and south tirol, i cant seem to find the info anywhere and i want to do a calculation for present day greater germany for the timeline, my estimates are somewhere around 90 million or nearly 100 million i dont knw if these numbers are two big.

mhmm okthanks.

oh yeah i forgot, without the whole hitler thing and having remained strong pan germanism would have remained a popular theme in german and austriann politics right? i ask because i made austria part of the german empire bypopular vote based on the continued existence of pan germanism and close relations between Austria and Germany. Nkbeeching (talk) 15:27, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

actually form what ive read there were strong wishes to unite the two during the post first world war, and even befoore then, the reason the greater german solution was abandoned before the war was because of the existance of the austrian empire, and many austrians felt like germans till the end of the second war based on my research. it is possible for it to have existed in the case of a smaller austria, though i was asking to know if it would implausible to unite the two. Nkbeeching (talk) 16:04, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

the reason it fell apart after from what ive been reading is the close attachment between nazism and pan germanism. unfortunately T.T

im talking largley about the german nationalism that existed since the end of the napoleonic wars, it was strong up until the end of ww2. if this is wrong ill see if there i any revisionss needed but i think it is quite plausible with a strong bond between Austria and Germany since is without its massive empire. again thanks for listening to my rambling XD Nkbeeching (talk) 16:19, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

um ok ill keep that in mind for the timeline and do a few ajustments to the timeline during the secod great war forcing a unification. thanks again for the help.Nkbeeching (talk) 17:42, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

i have a different idea and am gonig to be back tracking abit since i had several ideas over the last few days which make more sense for the timeline im eradicating everything ive done past 1946 and  will be revising the second great war since it has a few loose ends i wish to deal with.

an interesting couple of texts i found support what we both say, prior to ww2a large  majority of the austrians did consider themselves germans but with a seperate heritage, and the main issue the had with joining Germany was that theyed be joining a protestant majority state, and might lose their culture, but it was a mainstream topic with different parties having different opnions on the matter though its true that most likely preassure would have been needed t obring the cuntry into the German Empirte or into a federal Germany, but without a major defeat or without the rise of a monster like hitler it would probably go smother and be long lasting

My Timeline
LG. I wanted to discuss a few things with you.

The first is my ban and apology to FS. I have apologized to him and he has (undertandably) chastised me a bit for my behavior, but that is to be expected. I am now going to try realy hard to "turn over a new leaf."

I know we haven't been on the best start, and it appears that I am not your biggest fan, and vice versa. But from now on, I would like to seek your help like many other members of this community do. (This is out of respect for you.)

Now, you may or may not have noticed my TL, 6-2-5 Upheaval. I believe that this is a solid idea, with a solid PoD (historically plausible, mind you) that has the oppurtunity to get MacArthur in the White House, and then make an Asia-centered Cold War.

I was hoping you could look over a few pages of the TL, and tell me what you think. Here is what I had envisioned for the TL in the 1950s- early 60s. LG, do you have any thoughts or ideas? Everything is appreciated!
 * Potential_China_Borders_(6-2-5).png won by USA
 * MacArthur elected by landslide
 * MacArthur Doctrine issued
 * Indochina War goes anti-Commie
 * 2nd Sino-Civil War
 * Division of China
 * Manchuria and Tibet declare independence
 * Mongolia and USSR take advantage and expand
 * RoC left with coast, less land
 * France allows peaceful Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos
 * Without Communist China, democracy is less challenged

Warning Re
Just two question regarding your warning. What does DD mean and what should I put on my blog?Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 13:31, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Can I make a Chinese version of the wiki?Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 14:02, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Napoleonic wars
what would have been a part of the war which would have established a balance with napoleon being forced out of eastern europe but with the allies unable to remove him form power, im interested in creating a timeline based on a work ive been doing offline since ive reached something of a writers bloc on my other timelines, its not concrete yet but the basic idea is without the end of napoleon's ambitions and with strong tensions between the different warring parties continues wars between the european powers on the european continent without the balance of power and an increasingly competitive and violent colonization period. Russia, trying to eat away at the ottomans the german powers of Austria and Prussia putting aside their difference for a while to deal with an increasingly aggresive france, and the Americans having to deal with continued Spanish aggression under the napoleonic dynasty in the americas. i dont know if this is possible thats why im asking for some advice. Nkbeeching (talk) 19:07, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

thanks, i wasnt thinking that far east, i was largely thinking at most the rhine confederation, but i like your idea, thanks ill do the necesary fixes later on thanks for the hlp once more Nkbeeching (talk) 16:44, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

my own original idea was prussia joining the third coliation, mhmmm could you pass me a link on the deal its the first time ive heard of it actually, it would be a great help.Nkbeeching (talk) 16:51, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

my idea for the PoD is that The Russians dont fall for the French Roose and retain control of the Pratzen Plateau, due to Mikhail Kutuzuv successfully convincing the Czar not to, this makes the battle indecisive. Seeing the French push not decisive and in a precarious situation Prussia decides to join the Allies against Napoleon using their crossing of Prussian soil as a reason. From there The French would crush the Prussians like OTL but with their position now compromised the Austrian and Russian forces are able to attack them breaking the French hold on Eastern Austria and Vienna. still need to flesh it out completely, but does it sound good?Nkbeeching (talk) 01:00, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Um ok, i wasnt quite sure how much the battle would have affected, yeah i know the french would have crushed the prussians, they had an outdated army, it was inevitable but what i was thinking was that the fact that neither side has a chance to reorganize and Without such a decisive victory the coliation could react quicker to attack the French pushing them back a bit, thus leading to an earlier end of conflict with France temporarily in control of Western Germany parts Italy and some other areas for the next couple of decades under the bonaparte dynasty. Even if the allies could eventually push back the french they would be tired and overextended and napoleon coud organize a better defence closer to france.my idea on the note of Kutuzuv was that Francis is able to convince the Czar before the battle that a more cautious plan would be necesary to deal with the French allowing Kutuzuv to retain control and organize the Austrian defences along better lines. Even if the allies could eventually push back the french they would be tired and overextended and napoleon coud organize a better defence closer to france.

Ive read up the frankfurt proposal, from what i can see it would be impossible for it to move forward. Napoleon was willing to accept the original proposal which granted them trading rights, the return of colonies ,and parts of Europe they had conuered, but the British ultimately blocked this and demanded the status quo anti bellum, which would have ruined napoleon's regime forever, the negotiations were ultimately doomed to fail without the original proposal being accept granting france the Natural borders they desired, (the Rhine  Belguim etc, which i believe was part of the agreement) but the british would not have allowed this. Nkbeeching (talk) 12:31, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

ok so would it be plausible for Napoleon and the allies to negotiate Napoleon taking the lands up to the rhine and belguim? That would leave the French posed for a second war of conquest a few generations later for a new coliation largely made of German states this time to deal with the new napoleonic threat. Nkbeeching (talk) 12:59, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

um alright, thanks, so the post proposal borders would be like OTL post treaty of Paris, with Prussia gaining the rhineland? or would it be different, my honest hope for this timeline isnt one of French dominance as you may have noticed but rather of a more violent Europe and the earlier unification of Germany and Italy While possibly bringing Austria and Prussia closer together (havent decided on that one really yet) because of continued French aggression. Along with a spanish attempt to eventually retake their colonies in the Americas leading to increasing tensions with britain and the States.Nkbeeching (talk) 14:11, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

yeah ive been looking further into the proposal i honestly cant see them happening even with Napoleon accepting to negotiate on those terms, neither britain or Russia would have accepted it. im looking for another PoD right now to see if i can find a battle either early on or later on in the war that would have made a stalemate neither could continue with. if the frankfurt proposal really is plausible ill use it but im not sure about it, firstly because there is no spceifics of what it really was, and because it states in all the texts ive read so far, that it promised Napoleon the 1792 borders which included belgian and parts of the western part of the rhine, and neither the russians or the british would accept this, thus napoleon wouldn't either. Nkbeeching (talk) 17:04, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

i think ill go with the prussians joining the third coliation in 1805, i will have the coliation loss still because it is implausible for them to beat the French at that point but from there i can make longer conflicts which might eventually push the french back into western germany by the 1810's and ill see from there, i just want to run with the idea of no fourth coliation and see were it goes it plausible and im not ensuring anyones victory just yet. Nkbeeching (talk) 18:14, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

i know the end result will be a french viictory, ive already had them winning the third coalition and ive already realized the whole german situation, in tyhe timeline,however dont forget that the fourth coalition was effectively prussia alone, whle the end result would be effectively the same, the rest of the history would be affected, i still havent worked out changes ike ive stated ill be taking things by year and seing how they develop.Nkbeeching (talk) 16:54, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yo LG
I was wondering why my timeline Red, White, and Red was labled ASB: Biased. Octavian, Hail Marius (Play With Oct!) 01:08, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

Image Renaming
Hello! could you tell me how to rename my previously uploaded images? that way i will be able to use them on one of my pages? Vincent Mackay (talk) 14:36, September 19, 2013 (UTC)

Categories
What exactly are you talking about? Mscoree (talk) 14:06, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Please don't ban me for asking, but I was just curious as to what categories were viewed as unneeded. Are you talking about stuff like ? I saw that you removed the tag "Battle for Earth: Prime". Mscoree (talk) 18:52, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Um alright. Is there some sort of rule that map games cannot be marked as map games if they're already marked as ASB? What other rules are there. I'm simply trying to help by categorizing stuff. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 22:38, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

As an example, why did you remove the tag "Wars" from The War of the Foresaken page? I'm pretty sure it's a war, and there's no categories that override this. Mscoree (talk) 18:55, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I am looking at the categories. There is no "Wars" or war-related tags, only "Under Construction", "Under Construction (The Demonic Plague)", "The Demonic Plague", and "War of the Forsaken (The Demonic Plague)". Unless you can prove that this page isn't a war, or can explain what you mean clearly by maybe telling me the category you believe replaces "Wars" so we can continue on our business (hopefully in only one message), I think this deserves the category. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 14:11, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

The last category is the name of the war that all battles and conflict-related pages would go. It's like having a category called "World War 2 (The Demonic Plague)" that all WW2 pages in the timeline link. If you were to have a major war like this, I'd imagine that it should link to the Wars category, as well as its own personal category for suching through battles and stuff. Right now none of the categories link to "Wars". Mscoree (talk) 10:33, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

That would make sense if the category actually was linked to Wars, which it's not, and if all other war pages didn't have the war category. Mscoree (talk) 14:08, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

Wabash Union (Doomsday)
I think I have an idea for how the Wabash Union sneaks under Superior's radar. What if they were mostly just the city of Lafayette until after the explorers return? And isn't it possible that the nomads don't know every survivor state in the area? Yank 02:05, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Susquehanna Steam Electric Station
I'm sorry I haven't worked on my page. I have been engrossed in writing my book and several map games. I added info to the page, and have a few questions:

Thank You for all your help. Daeseunglim (talk) 18:59, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) I state that the engineers managed to shut down the facility, is that ok? I presume that would be the case, otherwise State College would not have gotten as far east as they did.
 * 2) The facility was abandoned. Realistically, why would you stay in a potentially dangerous area with little food and radioactive water.
 * 3) How big was the bomb dropped on Wilks-Barre/Scranton? I went on Ground Zero II, and found that the 'Joe 4', the first Soviet Hydrogen bomb would have left the facility intact.
 * 4) Does State College control the area? A follow up of my last question. If State College did, they could potentially get it back online with time (Years obviously, and lots of money due to the state of it in 2013).

Wrapping up the Operation
Hey LG. It has been a while!

So basically, I have been making some progress on the page, adding a photo here - adding a new section and paragraph there. Initially, I was searching through a few photos and decided to upload them to the wiki to help add more life to the page. Then I noticed that one of the pictures I added had US troops along with their Indian counterparts. I didn't want to delete it, so I just added ANZC troops supporting UIP soldiers. That brings me to my first point - would it be possible for the Commonwealth to send some 50 or so troops to help the UIP? Considering they played a significant role in the formation of the UIP, I wonder if it would be possible for them to just send a token support of help to show that the UIP still has their support or something? I know it really is for the picture to be able to be used, but hey, why not?

This question actually got me thinking about the wider scope of things going on. What is the current status of the UIP in terms of allies? Right now, I can see that the closest nations they have to being allies is the ANZAC and the Siberians. The SAC obviously cut off all their aid to the nation following its invasion. I am hoping for the UIP to be able to move forward now, and focus on internal as well as external development.

Since the deals with the Siberians more than a year ago now would have had significantly noticeable results, such as the rapid progression of UIP troops due to the Siberian advisers and trainers helping improve efficiency of the forces, I reckon the UIP would be hoping to get closer to the Siberians. Their army is already beginning to be amped up to superior standards compared to its neighbour.

Plus, with the cutting out of aid, I think the country will begin to focus on projects like reservoir construction to help improve conditions needed to grow crops. Did you know that the Kingdom of Mysore in its heyday had 40,000 reservoirs? The UIP will need to replicate that sort of numbers (I think the reservoirs were pretty small, but still - you get my point) but have much bigger reservoirs. I think that a new public awareness program would be raised, and an effort would be made especially to get the message across to remote villages. I think they might even look into constructing some dams.

And to wrap it up (for now that is), how do you think the newly captured territories will be assimilated? Will the state of Assam be reformed or will the whole area just become Arunanchal Pradesh or will the whole area become just a territory. And what of its people? Will they be forcefully moved and replaced with Indians from other parts of the nation? Considering the world would not really find out if the UIP manage it successfully, they could take the risk maybe? I look forward to your response. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 21:01, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

I see. So no aid from ANZC. Well, as long as they are allies, it helps the UIP cause. And thank you about the image, atleast I get to keep it. Its a pretty good one too, lol.

I agree, they need new public programs. Considering we have the ability to backtrack, I think we should use that. Yea, repairs in the newly conquered territories could be a hassle, but these programs will help provide jobs and help fuel the economy so it might end up creating a lot of growth.

Assam? Ok. So all the captured area becomes the territory of Assam with autonomous divisions for the other states incorporated? And the people don't move. Well that might become a problem, but with good propoganda I think that problem might be able to be sorted out.

I also had another proposition. Seeing as to how the UIP has such a large population, a lot of them would want to move out. Seeing how the Australians could use a population boost quite nicely, and so could the Siberians. I propose that the government begins a plan to reduce the load slightly by offering its citizens the chance to move to more "developed" countries and help create a better life for their children as well as create less mouths to feed in the nation. This would mean that the Siberians would be able to gain a lot more citizens and so would the ANZC.

So what do you think? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:24, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it seemed random. I wonder if you remember a WRCB post by Gansu I made stating the leader incorporated the southern areas, hoping to gain better approval by his people? that was what i was basically trying to reflect in the map. Other maps? Like other China maps? Oh, well I had thought those nations would have expanded by now, but as shown by the TL, the ability to backtrack is present so I guess that is ok if they haven't had active nations in a while.

And could you respond on my previous message please? :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:34, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

I seriously don't know why I keep trying this, but I *think* this new map would be better for the area. The Azanian League expands on all sides of its borders, so does Waterboersland. The Orange Free State hasn't expanded all that much. I have slightly increased the expansion of New Britain and Volkstaat.

So, once again, what do you think? On a sidenote, the whites I was referring to last time where in the Orange Free State. I was wondering whether they would have implemented programs to bolster the white population and to make sure the whites make up atleast a third to a half of their nation? I am sure they would not have any hesitancy in taking resources from the blacks in their nation to support their want for a growing white population. So yeah. Btw, I'm still awaiting a response on my previous UIP reltated message. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:18, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the response time, I have been having a busy week. It really isn't nice having to write an essay in 45 mins as practice for English! The message I was referring to was the paragraph with the opening line "I also had another proposition" lol. I'll add it onto the Gansu page then, although I really wish Vlad would come back online. This wiki needs its flagship timeline to be there in the wiki feed more often. Without it, I feel it is too chaotic. When I joined, it was a different time. People were into their own timelines. Perhaps I haven't done enough, but I am trying to make up to it by adding stuff to DD. I did once state that DD is actually just a hugely detailed map game with crazily plausible mods and the strictest rules on the wiki, and I guess upto a point it is true, too.

I have tried to make it logical. Next time, just bullet point the things I did wrong, no need to be too nice. It will save us both some time lol. I see you agree with my proposal. Fun fact, I had asked to adopt the Orange Free State - took me 10 days short of a year to realise I could as I had had no response! That makes it mine too, and all these discussions legimate.

So the Orange Free State. Where can we get the white immigrants to arrive from? Europe? South America? Zimbabwe (wait, this one might actually be viable)? Now I realise SA's population at the time of creation was around 35 Million and out of that about 1/5 were white. That number leaves us with 7 Million. Half of them fleed to the Orange Free State - ~3.5 Million. Numbers bolstered over time from [white] immigrants and extensive birth program would leave us with 5 million. Lets say 1:1 ratio of white to black - giving us 10 million. Good population numbers. but still making it a good deal weaker than other nations' in the region. I feel that South Africa's overall population would actually be roughly the same (if not slightly more actually) as OTL actually. We just swap the AIDS emidemic for the Doomsday genocide and stronger white immigration and population boom.

Moving onto the Indian immigration. I guess just spread the word and fund a few ships. The Orange Free State would definately recognise Indians not to be exactly at par with the whites, but definately better than the blacks. I would presume they would take midway position in the order of things. Jobs such as bankers, teachers - mainly the service industry, you know? Whites would specialise in leading industrial works and ruling the nation. I would think that the arrival of Indians could actually help make the region a more stable place, unless...

We create a bit of drama and get them to attack KwaZulu or Waterboersland for whatever reason you can fathom. They would probably target the Zulus thinking about it (bad relations). This might cause NUSA and New Britain to co-operate to take the nation down, with a land grab by the Azanians to the north too. The beauty of this is that a lot of the articles have not even been updated past 2007 so we could play around with time. Or we could make this a 2012-2013 thing.

Now I know you will shoot down as lot of my discussion points, but be nice about it. Not too many bold or italic words lol. I do hope that my points at least set you thinking about some of this. Plus, I have been thinking what the value of the Union Rand would be. 1 Deutsch Mark is equal to around 60 ANZC Dollars, but obviously KwaZulu and Lesotho's currencies might not be that strong. Maybe we peg it with the AnZC Dollar to make trading with probably their preferred trading partners easier?

I await your response. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:20, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

I work on the map. Finally, only two things to do and we are done with the map! Thank god, took me ages.

Hmm, ok so we have 15% white out of 30 million. That gives us 4.5 Million in the 80s  - more than 3 Million lol. The whites will be focused on reproducing their numbers - they start off with ~2 Million. I think they could manage to cross 4.5 million whites in the OFS by 2011 - we need to see immigration will help their cause and cause larger numbers.

LG, the area has fertile lands, has plentiful mines and already established towns. I do think there is a very strong chance they would manage to get at least double of the numbers you predict. It isn't hard to build from existing cities and trading will help boost their economy very nicely to make the industry better and housing construction quick. And there are a lot of blacks in KwaZulu as well as the Azanian League- as they would probably look to head to those areas. C'mon LG.

Encouraging immigration. What year can we say they started to? It would have to be after the formation of the UIP and probably after the formation of NUSA. That would give us 2005 onward. If you need the numbers, just say it was because of the Indians. There is no way only a few hundred thousand coming over. Indians will arrive, and in great numbers. To them, it is a better chance at life - a good nation which has a growing economy and job oppurtunities.

I see. So we go with the "prosperous" route for the OFS. So the ANZC isn't up for it? Well, that is a shame. There is a lot to play around with between 1 and 60. I think it would make sense to have 1 Union Rand = 10 ANZC Dollars.

So yeah. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:33, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Wabash Union II
Then why isn't it graduated yet? I would think that a somewhat more decentralized nation like this would be a good addition to the timeline. And why are there still articles that haven't left the proposal list in months or years? Yank 02:15, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Prop vs Stub
Thanks, Ganon, for the correction. I was not sure which to add, since this is merely an extention of the Food article. A new user suggested interest, so I created the stub for further development. Should I place proposal up on the main page?

It's good to see you're still holding down the fort. Are you planning anything special for the 30th anniversary of 1983DD this week? I suppose I need to update the leadership of the USA there, at least. I like a Brownback-Heath win, but I'm game for a Simpson-Brownback administration. I know, off topic. lol. What say you? SouthWriter (talk) 14:36, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Antarctica in RA
Thank you so much for your reply (hope you didn't mind me not noting you personally). I'm absolutely astonished that this may have some merit. Though the ultimate question (which I left out because I was convinced this would not be possible) is what they claim. As I've made mention, the likeliest part to claim would be the territories explored by Bellingshausen, which (for better or worse) would be the Antarctic Peninsula region (i.e., the Argentina/British/Chilean claims). Would this be possible? Or should I look elsewhere? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:57, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you once again for your input. I'm definitely happy right now, and glad the Russians can get the area I'm interested in. I will do more reading on the area and will start on a map. Though I only have a few more questions. If the Russians claim the area before the British do, would the Brits still make their claim to the same area? I do know they would eventually claim more territory on behalf of Australia and New Zealand, but not sure whether this should count. Given that Argentina and Chile ignore the British claims a few decades later, I doubt they would find the Alaskan/Russian claims any more valid. Any thoughts? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:13, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the fyi. Not so much it wouldn't be used, rather I wish to stay away from it personally. At least for me, its like saying that there are more than one area named Columbia. (LOL) --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 02:38, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

New Nation
Could I make a nation in Bloomsburg, PA? It is about 7 miles south of the SSES.

I will make it have a population of 9,378 people in 2013, a population of 4,219 people just after doomsday. It would control Bloomsburg, and Mainville. The town would be isolated b/c it doesn't have much connection to the outside world. It has a college and a hospital.

Is that ok? I was gonna tie in the SSES into it. Thanks.

Daeseunglim (talk) 16:18, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Red, White, and Red
Hey, LG. I just wanted to inform you that, so far, Red, White, and Red, isn't ASB. The concept may be, but that is just that - a concept. We have no working POD, nor any specific end-results. I understand if later on you want to apply that tag (I am cool with it), but Thanks for your time! On a side note, you say you are a historian. That is a field I would be interested in pursuing, so is there anything you can tell me about what you do, who you work for (if its not gonna give away the location, just say "a university", or "a national library."), and stuff like that! You are a cool guy, and (although sometimes I don't show this) I respect you as a role-model. Thanks,
 * 1) We are gonna do everything possible to make the ASB concept as un-ASB as possible.
 * 2) Isn't the purpose of an Alt-Hist to analyze what would happen if something went different, went wrong? Therefore, the analysis can be ASB, but I feel the concept cannot really be ASB. (You've been doing it longer than me, so I naturally defer to you.)
 * 3) I also feel the Biased tag is inaccurate. Personally, I have communism, and feel FDR, LBJ and Lincoln were some of our worst presidents. On the other hand you have Octivian, who loves Communism and its ideals. Therefore, we will counter each others' biases. Also, I cannot be biased when writing it, since I would be if anything against the concept of Communism in the US (one of my fears).

05:06, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

PS. You may not be the best guy to ask, but how can I get my sig not to go into code form? I have a template for it, but it always reverts to code.

PPS. How does this sound? I think it is the most plausible way to incorporate a Debs presidency. Link.

Ok, so a few things. A look into the minds of Reximus!
 * 1) Thank you very much for your thorough and detailed report back to me. I really appreciate it.
 * 2) I never knew you were Canadian and/or went to college in Canada. Just interesting, because that actually does shift ones left-right viewpoint a lot. A conservative in Canada is more or less a liberal in the US, so I just thought that is interesting.
 * 3) I think it is possible that, with the endorsements of Roosevelt and Bryan (even though those may be a stretch to get to), Debs and Gompers chould have won. But given your history, I won't argue that, because I know that you know your stuff better than I do. (I'd never hurd of Champ Clark).
 * 4) In addition, I think that Gompers and Debs could've grown to be more politically connected. Debs first became a socialist while in prison after Pullman. So, if Gompers was also there, he'd also have the same exposure. Also, since Gompers had a better reputation than Debs, he would've been able to make their stay in prison almost like Mandela's, except for labor.
 * 5) And I don't think that the TL is biased to help a certain people. I will admit that it is ASB in order to let Debs win, however, I feel that most TLs about elections are somewhat biased in this regard.
 * 6) I don't think that my facts on FDR and LBJ are too off, I just am a firm believer in the exact words, and intents of Madison and the Framers, of the Constitution, and I feel that both of them weren't good at following the Constitution. I will give you that I think JFK was an amazingly inspiring individual, and I actually am ok with his policies for the most part.
 * 7) I am a libertarian and a conservative. As such, I even disprove of Bush's continuation of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq (especially Iraq). I feel that he ought to have taken us out after Hussein was deposed. I feel the Middle East is just as bad as the Balkans were prior to WWI, so we ought to stay out of there! In Syria, in Iraq, in Iran. As a libertarian, I dislike military intervention in other nations. I think you should know that when you hear what I think about these people. I also HATE entitlements (Social Security, Food Stamps, Obamacare, Medicare, and Medicaid). They are unconstitutional.
 * 8) LBJ - The primary reason I dislike him is the entitlements of Medicare and Medicaid, and the expansion of Social Security. He was vital to the situation in Vietnam. I also think he used Kennedy to pass Civil Rights Act of 1964, which violates our rights of association. (By this I mean that business owners can no longer regulate their own business establishments, and prevent blacks if they feels so inclined. I actually do not dislike black people, Lt. Col. Allen West is a hero of mine. I am merely arguing the constitutionality of that legislation, not the intent.) "No memorial oration or eulogy could more eloquently honor President Kennedy's memory than the earliest possible passage of the civil rights bill for which he fought so long" Another reason I dislike him is his Great Society and War on Poverty. Neither of those are the federal government's job.
 * 9) FDR - An extreme liberal from American perspectives, FDR interfered with the ongoing Depression. Firstly this is not permitted in the Constitution what so ever. The first presidents (maybe not Adams or Washington, under Hamilton's school of thought) were in favor of laisseiz-faire (the purest form of capitalism), and instituted his New Deal. He prolonged the Depression by sending us into another recession, and he was all in favor of war! The US should've been fighting the Soviets alongside Hitler's men, not killing our ancestors - the Germanic Aryan race. (A bit rascist sounding, but oh well, it true.) Furthermore, he created Social Security, a program that will place huge burdens on our generation, and eventually bankrupt our nation, by paying for 15 years of subsidies to the Baby Boom.
 * 10) Lincoln - Now, I know this a most unorthodox world view! I have met very few people who share this sentiment. However, I feel that Lincoln was the worst President in the US history. In elementary school, I remember with pride the day when my teacher taught me how the US was the only nation in the world to only intervene in military affairs for the people of that nation. I thought that was amazing, because when all other nations fought for Empire, the US fought for Freedom. Then, looking at US history, I saw one person who broke this rule. Abraham Lincoln.
 * 11) Lying to Get Elected - Abraham Lincoln was from the radical Republican party. His party was dedicated to ruining the economies of the South by eradicating slavery - a practice which is condoned Biblically - even in the New Testament. Lincoln later issued the Emancipation Proclamation.
 * 12) The Civil War - As states enter the Union, they have every right to leave the Union. Since the Constitution says nothing about exiting the Union, it falls under the jurisdiction of the 9th/10th Ammendments to the US Constitution. The states were allowed to secede.
 * 13) West Virginia - The Constitution is very specific about what may or may not become a state. It says that no state may be formed within the borders of an existing state. Did Lincoln care? No! He allowed WV to become a state, although the Const. forbids it.
 * 14) Other than that, he took away the rights of a people for to determine for themselves what they want. Lincoln set a precedent that revoked our individual sovereignty.
 * 15) I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. - Thomas Jefferson
 * 16) I also dislike Wilson, for more obvious reasons of internationalism and the League of Nations. America for Americans! We got into a big enough mess in WWI also.
 * 17) People always call conservatives "war hawks," but look at FDR and LBJ and Lincoln and Wilson. They got us into Vietnam, WWII, the Civil War, and WWI! All told, about 1.2 million men died due to liberals getting us into wars that I woudln't have fought.
 * 18) My Top 5 American Presidents
 * 19) Thomas Jefferson
 * 20) Ronald Reagan
 * 21) James Madison
 * 22) Andrew Jackson
 * 23) Jefferson Davis (Well, he was American!)
 * 24) My Bottom 5 American Presidents
 * 25) Abraham Lincoln
 * 26) FDR
 * 27) LBJ
 * 28) Woodrow Wilson
 * 29) Jimmy Carter (The Recession Wasn't His Fault)

Can we just block Rex? His continuous violation of NCNC and his BS is, quite bluntly, annoying.

<span style="-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFFFFF 50%,#FFFFFF 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(#FFD700 50%,#000000 50%));"><span style="border:1px solid #000000;padding-bottom:1px;padding-top:1px;-webkit-border-radius: 1px 1px;-moz-border-radius: 1px / 1px;-webkit-box-shadow: 1px 1px 1px rgba(0,0,0,0.6);background-image:-webkit-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#080808 45%,#000000 50%);background:-moz-repeating-radial-gradient(ellipse,#CCCCFF 45%,#000000 50%));border-top-left-radius:500px 400px;border-bottom-left-radius:500px 400px">               <span style="background-image:-webkit-gradient(linear, right top, left top, from(#ffffff), to(#ffffff)); -webkit-border-radius: 36px 12px; -moz-border-radius: 36px / 12px; -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 5px 5px #00ff00; border:2px double #E5E4E2 border-radius:5px; border-bottom-right-radius:100px 90px; border-top-right-radius:100px 90px; color:#FFFFFF"> <font color="#0000ff" face="Helvetica">"Fear leads to anger. <font color=navy face="Helvetica"> Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to    <font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" title="Blog"> suffering."  23:16, September 29, 2013 (UTC)

I do not like to be blocked. LG asked me about all this (I did elaborate a good deal), and so did other players, so that is why I made the Blog Post. Take it down if you'd like to.

Anyway, LG, I was just looking at a buch of TLs (danged Random Article button!) and Red, White, and Red really isn't so bad. We have tried to make a the most plausible way for Debs to be elected. I know it would never happen, so an ASB tag is ok, but thinking about it, I think we need a new category.

ASB-Elections. There are tons of articles and TLs out there were an election goes way ASB. In fact, almost all (maybe minus Al Gore TLs) should be ASB-Biased based off of your criterion.

This will better distinguish actual TLs, like mine, and those crazy Sealion, CSA, and Nazi Victory TLs which truly are biased. This is just a suggestion, but hey! Thanks, and please do not ban me!

Sorry for forgetting this part. In the area around Phoenix, Arizona. Thanks for your extended post in response. But still, any thoughts on ASB-Elections? I will be willing to lead the hunt for ASB Election scenarios if you need help on that front! Thanks,

So, any thoughts on ASB-Elections? And did you think I lived in the South?

Template screw up
Hey i kind of made a mistake editing a Template and it wont let me undo my edit to fix/undo the action. wasnt sure to contact figured you could help me out. Its just saying there is an intermediate revision and i cant do anything about it. Thats just for further information. Sorry for any inconvinience. &#35;LivinLikeFeudal (talk)

Template RTS

Just curious
I know it is maybe a not so important question, but is NFSreloaded already the one of TSPTF members? FirstStooge (talk) 07:59, September 30, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I will refrain myself about the "mustard note" on the vandals.

Okay, then. But, I believe one day N will joining the TSPTF as well. :) FirstStooge (talk) 11:03, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

I know. I referring all of my notes as "mustard notes"... FirstStooge (talk) 11:38, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

RE: Undoing
Ahhhh now i understand thank you very much i was bewildered. i literally had no idea what was going on with it. Thanks again for telling me. &#35;LivinLikeFeudal (talk) 06:23, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

Commonwealth of Susquehanna
Thank u for ur help. I will get around to changing the items that u requested. I do have a few questions:
 * there are two artillery guns in Danville memorial park that have been there since 1970. The only thing wrong with them is they are welded shut. So I was using those as the base for my artillery.
 * There was/is a mechanized infantry regiment in Bloomsburg that has been there since before 1983. Is that ok if I use 3-6 vehicles b/c they are reserve units?
 * Life Flight has bein in operation since 1981. The 5 helicopters they started with were 10 yrs old. I was assuming that they were damaged, but they cannabalized two for parts to repair the other three.

Just as a note, the tank is not a M60 Patton, it is an M47 Patton, only used until the late 1960's, so it is likely that it could have been a monument (which I think it was for a time, then switched out later)

Thank you for your help, and are the other things u mentioned in the first request better?

Daeseunglim (talk) 10:14, October 3, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, a few points and questions:

1- There are 3 airports within a 10-20 mile radius of Bloomsburg. At this time I found there was a total of 30-45 aircraft between them. Figuring 1/2 EMPed, and another 1/3 used for parts, etc. That leaves 10-13 aircraft.

2-

Another Section
I felt it would be better starting a new message section, lol. I feel these are productive discussions going on between us. Now for my response.

That was a misunderstanding on my part then I would suppose. The talkpages of the Azanian league stated that a quarter were killed, a quarter formed Heiligdom and half went to the OFS areas. I'll put initial number of whites down to 1.5 Million in the OFS, but LG, it needs to be seen that they can and will reproduce quickly to make sure they have dominance. Why can't there be 4.5 Million of them? Are you telling me that a lot of the whites are going to be in KwaZulu instead? If that is so, then maybe your population figues might work out better, but I have my doubts.

And why would there not be more than 3 Million? The are can easily accomadate the numbers - they have the towns and they have the industry. And it is not like small booming towns cannot be built.

Sure, let them have high populations. But what I am saying is other areas will also have a significant number of people present too.

I see, so not that many. But why would this even be the case? Many could and would have gotten out and a few 10,000 seems little low for my liking.

I found it on the article itself, here. And that has been around quite a while. That is where I got my conversion rate from.

I have also uploaded the new version of the map. Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:26, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

I see. Now that clears it up much better, and lets me understand where you were getting your numbers from.

Hey, I do keep up with quite a few discussions, its jus that I have a tendancy to forget most of the things discussed ( :P ). I saw it on the Azanian League talkpage, although in hindsight, this might have been for the areas the League controlled.

I thought the RZA was an evil warlord reigime from which the whites would have run away from, or atleast most would have tried out of the 0.9 million living there at the time DD occured.

So if we add up the total % of whites in League territory, we get ~43% of total whites. That gives us around 2 million whites. Out of these, half made it to the OFS, quarter died and quarter made it to Heiligdom. That gives us 1 mil to OFS, 500k dead and 500k to Heiligdom (oh, these numbers are a lot closer to your estimates). So you say we still have some in the League, lets put that to 50k - so that gives us 950k fleeing to OFS. But the number could be even lower to this maybe (check Oer's talkpage to see what I mean).

It might not be at the time, but if you can get whites herders (rooinek), then I don't see why they canot adopt an African mentality of multiple children (3+). But that is just my thoughts really, because matters like these remain unpredictable. Industry can be rebuilt, and so could housing. Ok, it might take like 10 years, but it would happen. Perhaps it might happen too late after DD to make any impact on the migration/choas times of the 80s.

I see. In that case, I would like the majority to head to New Britain. It seems like the most "free" nation out of those three. I know the Cape government would like liked Indians, but the quality of life would be better for them in NB.

It does if you think about it. £20,000 doesn't get you ships to transport people. On the other hand, £1,000,000 gives you a lot of options. I don't think you should have changed it to be honest. :P  Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:15, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Blimey, this was 3 days ago and you already have a heck of a lot more sections after my one!

Each does sound better, gives the GSWA more prestige in my opinion, lol. Your explanation does seem to make a lot of sense - I guess Arstar probably got it wrong.

Oh? Well, I am not sure if that is on the Cape page or not. There seems to be something about excepting Indians, by both sides. I guess we have Gandhi to thank for that XD But KwaZulu does seem to be a good choice. I think I have control of that page now, so I will get the parts that Mitro say do not comply with canon fixed and add a sentence or two about it. Plus, I really do not think that area would just become fully tribal again like what the article seems to suggest. If anything, it will be one of the most organised state in the area and having fully functioning cities and roads. I am not sure about their industry or the ability to be able to use and such, however.

Hmm, it does decrease numbers. I really don't think I am LG, 500k is no small number at all + around 50-100k extra deaths is quite a bit, you know?

Oh. I guess then we cannot really talk about anything to do with mentality lol. So I think we are done for now about the area. Do you reckon the map was fine? If so - I'll get a better version ready with the same borders and upload it. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:30, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Templates
How do you make a template also add a category? Mafia (talk) 17:51, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

RE: Articles
Since Mitro hasn't posted in over a year, I didn't think he'd mind if I adopted the articles, so I posted the message on the article talk page, instead of his private one, partially because I've seen you do it in the past. I wrote on the RTFA talk page that I'd like to adopt all of the stubs, considering they lacked any real content and were also basically connected. The only objector was yourself, whose only objection was basically "I hate Mscoree and banned from Doomsday", so I didn't really take that seriously. Several other admins have since told me that I could adopt them, so I accepted their best judgement. I don't see the point of reverting all that hard work and content because the paperwork isn't finished, so do you mind fixing that? Is it really necessary to trolololol me by undoing all my work because of past grudges, and to ensure you always win? So we're clear, do you mind telling me which rules were broken? Not to mention that one of the articles was even original. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 01:30, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

I also do not agree with your edits to . Firstly you removed the tag "Maps (1983: Doomsday)" in favor of "Maps". Considering this is an ATL map, different from OTL, pertaining to an ATL nation, in this specific timeline, I think it makes sense that it is labeled as being part of Doomsday. It's even on the maps page, and it's in the title. Next you removed the tag "RTFA (1983: Doomsday)". Since this image is of the RTFA's territory I think it makes sense that it be tied to its category. Lastly it has the "France (1983: Doomsday)" tag, which all RTFA and France articles have. Mscoree (talk) 02:52, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

I apologize if I angered you somehow but can we please approach this calmly and maturely? Mitro hasn't posted in over a year, so I so no harm in adopting his articles. Most of them were stubs anyway. I really don't think it's worth undoing all that hard work. If you could respond and answer my earlier questions that would be much appreciated. Mscoree (talk) 13:18, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Firstly there are other ways to communicate with people other than talk pages. As far as I can tell there is no rule that says that a single objection vetoes someone's adoption, and it would appear you're making it up. That image actually is a Doomsday map, considering it is completely part of the ATL. It is quite altered compared to the actual OTL one on Wikipedia. Mscoree (talk) 10:34, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is in fact other ways to communicate other than talk pages. No where in the rules does it say anything about objecting adoptions, although people have told me this is an unofficial rule you practice. Lastly, I can't stress enough that and  are not the same map. I made the first one specifically for 1983: Doomsday. On an unrelated note, I've have a few amendments for the Africa Template on its talk page, and I was wondering if I'm allowed to change it or ask you to. I noticed there also a similar problem with the French template. Mscoree (talk) 10:36, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

I was going by the rules of 1983, but after reading the general wiki rules I see that there can be objections, usually to try and reach a compromise with the original editors. Thanks for directing me to these rules, as I now know I should appeal to the TSPTF because of you. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 14:13, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

How am I not following the adoption rules? Let's walk through them here:

Mscoree (talk) 10:38, October 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Contact the creator or most recent caretaker and ask if you can adopt the timeline (if it is an open timeline or collaborative project it may be necessary to contact more than one editor before you complete this step). If he or she says yes, you may adopt the timeline. If he or she says no, than you may not adopt the timeline. If you get no response after one week, go to step two.
 * Sent Mitro a message here. As you can see I asked him about each article.
 * Leave a message on the portal page stating your intentions to adopt the timeline and ask if anyone objects. If no one objects after three days, you may adopt the timeline. If there are objections, go to step three.
 * I left numerous messages on all pages, especially the portal/base page for the series of articles.
 * Listen to the objections and try to reach a comprise. The issue might be solved by simply sharing control over the timeline with the other editor(s).
 * I attempted to have a mature conversation with you about this but you clearly are unwilling.
 * If you cannot reach a comprise, appeal to the TSPTF.
 * I guess I really have to now.

Miracle at the Marne - Austria-Hungary
Hello Lordganon! I was wondering if you had any ideas on how to prevent or at least prolong the seperation of Austria-Hungary in the map game Miracle at Marne, as I was told you suggested it would still fall within 10 to 15 years. The only ideas I was able to come up with is more integration of the Austrian and Hungarian Parliaments; or at least since the First World War in this map game's POD lasted three years less than it did OTL, perhaps the extended victories, exemption of Austrian moral and casualty losses, and better supplies would prevent Leftist and Liberal strikes and uprisings that toppled the Austria-Hungarian Emperor Charles I/IV. Thanks! Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 02:45, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Miracle at Marne
Hey i was wondering. i thought the POD for the Miracle at Marne while good for a map game would be even better for a Timeline. Whats your rules/ opinion on having something like those existing side by side. Have a Timeline independent of the Game. So there would be the Miracle at Marne (Map Game) and just Miracle at Marne. Would i have to rename it so its less confusing or could i keep it as it. I figured id ask before i went ahead and did it. &#35;LivinLikeFeudal (talk) 20:18, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Russia/Ukraine in RA
Another idea that works? o_O

Ironically, it was because someone suggested this for New Union (and I turned it down) that I thought about it happening here. That was you? That's pretty funny.

The only thing I would disagree on is the name and size of the split. From what I've gotten, I would think that the Russian-speaking regions would by far support such a move (especially if a civil war breaks out). I see it including (at most) all the oblasts that voted for Kuchma in 1994, all of which have Russian-understanding majorities (that being the case, "Donbas" wouldn't work). By the time you read this, I should have a map of how I see such a state. Thank you again for your reply. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:06, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't completely understand what you are talking about. This idea has nothing to do with Russian-speaking majority areas but on pro-Russian areas. If you look at this page (in Russian), practically all of the Ukraine speaks Ukrainian. If "that" map is not workable, than maybe this map may be a little more accurate, showing once of those macroregions as having a Russian plurality (i.e., the largest percentage but not a majority). If you also look at this map, you can see the fluency of Russian and Ukrainian.


 * While the first two presidential elections are different from the later ones, any civil war would likely take place in the mid to late 1990s (when these results would still be in place). On that same note, virtually all the area of my eastern state either voted for independence and then communists in the first two parliamentary elections (at least the communists would likely support a Russian merger).


 * This overall idea has to do with pro-Russian sentiment. While voting and language may be an odd issue in the short term, a civil war would likely destabilize the area and expand the pro-Russian areas. Much of the south has been Russified and would likely support any Russian assistance, while the northwestern parts would be much more anti-Russian. In regards to Odessa, they actually have a Ukrainian plurality (with Russians not too far behind) and a Russified population. I highly doubt that they would be willing to remain outside a pro-Russian area. At the very least, any Eastern state would include all the coastline (leaving the west landlocked).


 * This reminds me of how Tennessee and Virginia voted for a different candidate in 1860 than the majority of the south, but the chaos of the Civil War lead both of them to side with the CSA. I also see much of these "fence" regions of the Ukraine following this same logic. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:01, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

I think I'm starting to remember why I turned down this idea in New Union. The definition of an eastern state you suggest is too small for my liking, excludes areas that were (among other things) the main reasons I looked into this in the first place (i.e., Odessa, a physical connection to Transnistria, and to a lesser extent the Chernobyl exclusion zone), and contradict what I've read about the area. If a smaller state is all you are advocating, than maybe this isn't such a good idea after all. I think I'm going to now leave out the Ukraine and simply focus on the remaining areas of interest. Thank you for your help. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:32, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

'Don't Wear it Out'
I have to ask, this was on your page ("The name's LG, don't wear it out"), did that come from Green Day's Saint Jimmy?

Ahh, ok. Just wondering. Sounded somewhat similar.

Don't let Oct hear that someone once called you 'Lord'. ;)

Appreciation
I really do appreciate it. There are so many clinks in the machine in South Africa - even the situation of India in terms of articles is significantly better.

So, if you have been keeping up with the news occuring in India recently, we have a hurricane (typhoon, if you must) on the loose. Considering the Aussie floods didn't happen, I was wondering what was going to happen to this. Extra rainfall in the Thar and Deccan (great for crops)? The hurricane happens as OTL (which really the UIP could really do without) or do we change its path and make it weaker so it only affects northern sections of Tamil Nadu and most of former Andhra?

And I take it the South Africa map is ready. I'll get to making the one with the new borders now. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:01, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

Plus, I reckon Operation Dissolution is ready for grad. We should get ready to backtrack. :D  Imp (Say Hi?!) 17:27, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'll change that and add the new borders on the map then.

I see, so a milder Hurricane. But how would this affect the UIP? Make them weaker or actually make them stronger by being able to reconstruct old rundown buildings in a much better manner, attracting entrepeneurs to invest in the new construction buzz and such. Plus, casualities would be low due to the number of soldiers who would already be present at the sight to help evacuate civilians and help clear up the mess later on.

However, the UIP will have this become a strain on resources and I really don't know what could happen if things don't go like what i said in the last para.

But atleast Operation Dissolution is done and dusted! :)  Imp (Say Hi?!) 16:47, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

I see. As long as he will follow those procedures the next time, we should not have a problem. Although I do have a small request. Could you give him a bit more space? I know the history between you two isn't great (and lets be honest, Ms has pissed off a lot of people here - me especially) but I think we should try to work around it. It really isn't that bad.

Great, the UIP has to spend more money - just what they needed right now. Just when we thought they might actually be able to get some work on their interior systems done we have a hurricane -.- However, so far we are only looking at around 20 or so deaths. Is there any chance the SAC will be forced to send aid once more? They cannot be seen to look biased and bad toward a nation in front of the whole LoN, so maybe the giving of aid atleast temporarily once more maybe? That would help the UIP significantly.

And I have been wanting to ask you about KwaZulu. Seeing as to how they are tribal, is there a chance we can get them to keep their culture but have them move forward socially as well as technologically - like OTL India by any chance? This is because I am highly unsure of how the nation would be compared to others in the region. Would it become NUSA's burden, or actually be their best state because of its population and the number of troops they can gather? I also have the union states taking part in joint military operations - on a scale not seen before. This was mainly to do with securing roads and transportation routes for helping trade boom. I know we just got over the map and stuff, but this would mean we would have thin lines of expansion in the middle of unoccupied land - representing the land controlled by NUSA. Could this work? And could this be represented in the next update of the map around springtime 2014?

I am pretty sure I have more questions about various other topics, but I'll allow you to answer these questions first before pressing on! XD  Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:31, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Red, White, and Red (cont.)
Hi, LG. I just wanted to see if you could revisit a few things in my TL, Red, White, and Red.

I understand how at first, without seeing how the TL ended working out, you could categorize it as ASB-Biased. However, after fleshing out a bit more of the TL, including a list of presidents, I feel that, with a victory by William Jennings Bryan in 1896, it is plausible for Debs to have eventually been elected.

Under Bryan's tenure, he introduced bimetallism, which made him popular with the lower classes, whilst alienating the upper classes. He then proceded to nationalize the telegraph and eventually railroad systems. This sets up the scene for Debs to win, provided that he earns Bryan's endorsement, which he does because of the extensive support Debs and Gompers gave Bryan during his tenure as President. Thanks for your Time, <span style="border:3px solid blue; "> <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Reximus">Reximus   <font color="#FF0000" face="Sans-Serif" title="Talk">Maximus  09:18, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

What is map game? Can someone introduce me as to what a map game is and how they work? FilipinoMan (talk) 14:31, October 17, 2013 (UTC)FilipinoMan