Talk:South Africa (1983: Doomsday)

Hi there...

a nice ideas and detailed work, good job! I would just leave out the german element and the rescue missions as i dont think a wrecked South Africa might be able to undertake rescue missions to Europe, concerning resources. maybe some refugee ships arrive, maybe even Thatcher.. but leave out Schmidt I suggest :) --Xi&#39;Reney 01:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this article, I'd like to suggest spliting it into smaller paragraphs. Large paragraphs can sometimes be intimidating. DarthEinstein 01:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

To Mitro: Does this take into account your ideas at Talk:1983: Doomsday? It seems a lot shorter and more white-centric than what you had written. Benkarnell 16:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No I did not write what you see now on this article, in fact I haven't edited this since June. What I added on Talk:1983: Doomsday was a rough draft containing elements from here, New Britain, the map, and some of my own ideas.  I will make the changes to avoid confusion.  Mitro 16:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: the history section needs to be updated to reflect only the Union's hisotry. Mitro 16:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Flag
The old flag of the Union and Republic of South Africa is very Eurocentric and associated with apartheid. *Here* practically the first thing the post-apartheid govt did was throw it out. Just looking at the geography and the numbers, I'd imagine that Bophuthatswana is the strongest member of the union, possibly by a significant margin. I suggest giving this no flag until something is created that reflects the reality of the New Union. Benkarnell 17:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Mitro 18:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have flags of all the countries that make up the New Union. Bob 10:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a better design for the RZA based on the pre-1996 Cape Town flag. Bob 15:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

CLIMATE
I don't think that the changes to the climate of the world would have disastrous effects on South Africa -- on the contrary, I think it would actually be beneficial, would the people harness them...and that's the problem. From everything I looked at, I didn't foresee a dramatic rise in sea-level, because of the increased rainfall and glaciation of the mountains in Europe and North America. Also, remember that much more water is being held as fresh water in pluvial lakes around the world, including parts of the Sahara that are drinking up water like crazy, with the changes in the weather.

Thus, as I say, I don't know that the changes in the weather would have been disastrous had not the humans been in such a state, and could have turned the changes to their benefits. Louisiannan 14:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments
After rereading this I must say that I'm not much of a fan of these large scale, I can't imagine people who are living in a deteriorating area themselves after the attacks would spends so much resources on people so far away and which they've culturally diverted from long ago. Comparing an Afrikaner to a Dutchman makes about as much sense as comparing a Deep South American with someone from Britain: the comparison largely stops at linguistics, and even that isn't entirely convincing. I can still believe the Anglo-Africans might still feel a bond with their British counterparts that's strong enough to make them sacrifice some means to initiate a small scale evacuation, but I can hardly imagine the Germans and Afrikaners doing anything such.

So I'm rather puzzled as to how all these remarkable "Deutschländer" immigrants get to rule the DSWA (Why is that name left untranslated anyway?). Looking at this category there are several German(ised) names that'd make likelier candidates. I guess such a state would be based on Central and Southern Namibia where most German Namibians live, with its capital at Windhoek/Windhuk, or Keetmanshoop if it's more Southern based. The coast where the world map places is the inhospitable Namib desert.

The town of Orania didn't exist yet in 1983. It's a fine name for an Afrikaner state centred round the Orange River, but the town shouldn't be mentioned.

Anyway, this article seriously needs some improvement. The basic outline is excellent, but the devil is in the detail. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This was originally written by an anon back in February who has written anything since. I stepped in and tried to tie it to the TL by getting rid of some of the contradictions and adding in details from other sources.  Personally I’m not that attached to it and I plan to make some of the changes you suggested.  However I am really not an expert of this area so I ask that if anyone is more knowledgeable on South Africa to please help improve this article.  Mitro 15:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * An anon? I thought Bob had written the original proposal.  If it was just some bunchanumbers, I say chuck the whole thing.  Back to the drawing board, with the exception of some of the wider regional stuff (like the fact that there is some kind of New Union) that has had an impact on the outside world.  I've always found the DSWA a little ridiculous: why would anyone want to revive one of the worst colonies in history?  I've kept mostly quiet about it in the name of collaboration.  But it sounds like the writer is not terribly interested in collaboration.  Benkarnell 21:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The DSWA as it stands now, with all the Germans heading for the desert and somehow all surviving the departure of their lush homeland, is ridiculous: true. But I'm not at all averse to the actual Germans already living there establishing a state of their own. I do think the notion of German South West Africa having been the worst colony in the world will not be entirely widespread among those folk, and they are sizeable enough a community to warrant a state, especially if the Afrikaners and Rehoboth Basters of OTL Namibia join them in their quest. I'm even considering adopting the DSWA and perhaps several other states in the new Union. I'm all for a total rewrite of this article, but I guess that could be done a lot more practically if some of the nations within it have been filled in and are given a proper background story. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 07:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal
Okay, I though about this for a while and came up with some sort of draft set of proposals for South(ern) Africa. This proposal is done assuming that only New Britain, and the existence of the RZA is canon and everything else is open for discussion. The specific history of the latter, being a stub, is altered substantially by the proposal.
 * premise one: After Doomsday ans loss of contact with the Northern Hemisphere, authority in South Africa largely collapses

Eastern South Africa

 * To the east of the Cape province the Bantustans assume sovereignty over their own lands and try to establish control over the areas inhabited by their respective tribe. Lesotho and Swaziland do likewise.
 * Ciskei and Transkei ultimately merge to form KwaXhosa.
 * QwaQwa is absorbed by Lesotho.
 * KwaNgwane is absorbed by Swaziland.
 * The city of Johannesburg finds itself running out of supplies and ends up in a dire situation. The fighting is ceased when an uncomfortable marriage de raison is agreed on by ANC insurgents and those government troops remaining to keep the city as a whole from starving. Johannesburg militia join the Bantustans in search for arable lands and instantly clash with them.
 * The troops of the Bantustans beat the Johannesburgers decisively and start beleaguering the city.
 * After Johannesburg falls the rulers of the former Bantustans can't agree on who is to rule the city and ultimately accept a proposal by one of the 'stans' to place the city under joint control, which leads to the formation of the "Azanian League": a loose confederation of many of the Bantustans + Lesotho and Swaziland.
 * When Robert Mugabe managed to get parts of Rhodesia under his effective control, his Republic of Zimbabwe joins the League too.
 * The Xhosa and Zulu remain outside of this union. The latter ends up in a civil war between royalist and Inkatha party republicans.
 * As the Anglo-Africans leave the area for New Britain, the only convenient lingua franca comes to be Afrikaans, much to the annoyance of local rulers.

Western South Africa

 * After the attacks the only part of South Africa to remain under effective government control is the almost wholly Europeanised part round Cape Town. As the central government finally collapsed, local authorities assume control of the area. In the end this lead to a state dominated by the Afrikaans speaking coloured population, which I suppose will be quietly emancipated in quite liberal Cape Town. Note: coloured denotes mixed race in South Africa. In many ways these people are closely related to the Afrikaners. They even voted mostly for the Afrikaner National Party in the 1994 election, possibly forming the majority of the party's electorate, presumable because they feared being ruled by the black majority even more than being ruled by their Afrikaner relatives. By that logic I'm letting them stay loyal to the regime. Ultimately they may even start styling themselves "Afrikaners" as well. The still functioning government starts referring to itself as the "RZA". An actual declaration of independence never takes place.
 * The Griqua community, centred round Griquatown in the arid north eastern part of the Cape Province, assume sovereignty over their area again.
 * A rather radical Afrikaner group does likewise with the western part of the modern province of the northern Cape. Forming the "Volksstaat". Popularly known by the name of its capital: the Bitterfontein Republic.
 * Meanwhile in South West Africa, a group of ethnic German leaders meet in Windhoek and proclaim that now that South Africa no longer exists its mandate on the country has also expired and South West Africa is terra nullius. After having ensured themselves of the support of the local Afrikaners and Basters they declare themselves sovereign over the whole of the area. They however only manage to take control of the southern and central part of the country. Neither is the new country, which has started using the name and flag of the former German colony in the area, exclusively a German state. One may well claim that the region is effectively more under the control of the more numerous Afrikaners than under that of the Germans.
 * Triggered by the establishment of the Azanian League, leaders of the western states form a Union of their own. Calling it the "New Union of South Africa". Memberstates are the RZA, Bitterfontein, Griqualand and the DSWA. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Flag (again)
I like the idea of replacing the old tiny flags with new ones... but the fact remains that you're still left with a flagthat loks a whole lot like the "apartheid flag". This is a simple little one that I whipped up. The brown, black, and white represent SA's three races. They are joined at the center point to represent the races' unity and interdependence. The gold fly represents prosperity and progress (and keeps the flag heraldically correct, important in South Africa). Benkarnell 22:48, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Meh, I don't like that flag. Here's a better one.  Same symbolism, but the gold band represents the rich land of South Africa binding the people together.  The rule of tincture gets broken, but not badly.  Benkarnell 02:41, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

In all of this chaos, what happened to Mandela? was he atomized or did he live through Doomsday? I have no idea when he served as leader of South Africa. --Yankovic270 03:04, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * He's in the Timeline. He was rescued from prison by ANC members and taken to the Jo'burg-Pretoria area, where he was killed in the civil violence there.  I don't think we know what happened to the rest of the ANC leadership.  Presumably some of them were behind the creation of the New Union, which we as yet know little about. Benkarnell 15:59, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess the ANC involvement will be greater in the Azanian League to the east, the NUSA is more of a club of Afrikaners, Coloureds and the occasional German living in the area of the modern North and West Cape provinces. Which is also one of the reasons why I recycled the apartheid era flag. I guess to many blacks the very name 'South Africa' will breath apartheid, certainly after the post-Doomsday events and without the Mandela's grand compromising in 1994, which makes that I estimated that none of their states would join the NUSA and the flag would be much less objectionable. Especially considering the persecutions at the Cape, it seems to me that language and religion rather than race would become the primary identifiers in the area of the NUSA, which would make the flag rather awkward. I do think it's a great flag for a part of South Africa where race will be a more important issue, how about using this flag for the Johannesburg district (of 'Gauteng' as I suppose it will be renamed) of the Azanian League? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 17:57, October 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Aha, I had noticed that the New Union was lacking a certain Black element, but I had thought that was due to neglect and Eurocentrism on the part of our team, not due to design. I had assumed the New Union to be an across-the-board organization aimed at restoring order to the entire country.  I think it's _much_ more interesting as just one faction.  And in that light, it makes perfect sense for them to resurrect the Dutch-based "apartheid flag".   What is the Azanian League?  I don't think I've come across it before.  Assuming it to be some sort of Black-based unity movement, definitely, it can have the flag.  Benkarnell 22:23, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Map
As some may know, I am currently working on a new world map. I just got to South Africa, and I became really confused. I can't find articles for countries like Grigualand, Bophuthatswana, Mapungubwe, DSWA, or Orania, and those that I did find, like this one, Republic of the Cape, and RZA were confusing. Could the overall situation in South Africa be clarified for me? --DarthEinstein 22:22, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand the fact that the whole basic history of South Africa got redone but isn't yet implemented is horribly confusing, I'm terribly sorry but I just haven't had the time lately to do some proper writing.
 * The Republic of the Cape and the RZA are one and the same, the RZA being the name of the current authorities.
 * Griqualand got renamed as 'Waterboersland', it encompasses the eastern part of the North Cape province, centred at Griqua Town.
 * Volkstaat (previously Orania) is to the latters west, at the town of Bitterfontein.
 * The DSWA, of 'German South West Africa' encompasses a yet to be determined part of Namibia.
 * New Britain is centred at Port Elizabeth.
 * To its east you'll find KwaXhosa.
 * In the province of KwaZulu-Natal you'll find the rivalling Zulu factions.
 * The remaining parts of former South Africa, centred at Johannesburg, are largely in the hands of the various nations of the Azanian League, including Bophutswana and possibly a country called Mapungubwe (scroll up to 'Eastern South Africa' for more details on this one. Since the Azanian League has no article and isn't canon I'm not sure whether it should be included on the map.
 * I hope this is sort of like clarifying... --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 18:10, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting to think the whole region is cursed (lol). Mitro 22:17, October 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Karsten, I'm very happy that *someone*, at least, has a clear picture in his head for South Africa. What you have written there sounds very good.  Regarding the Zulu factions, which came out of my head: I imagined one faction supporting the Inkatha Freedom Party, one supporting the monarchy (which broke with the IFP for reasons I still want to explore), and one "Unionist" faction.  The "Unionists" I initially imagined as supporting the New Union of South Africa.  Reading your comments above, I think it's more likely that they support the Azanian League instead - probably "Azanian" is a better name than "Unionist".  Benkarnell 22:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC)