Talk:Organisation of British Nations (1983: Doomsday)

OBN
In the last paragraph, are you saying that there is or isn't a chance of them becoming one nation? Louisiannan

Thanks for bringing that to my notice :) I've now edited the piece to make it a lot clearer. As the OBN currently consists of Woodbridge, Essex and East Britain myself and the creators of those two nations will put a whole lot more detail into the article over time Verence71 18:43, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

would it be possible for the Kingdom of Albion to have its southern boundary as the River Humber? as i think a major river would be an obvious boundary rather than just a line on a map.--Smoggy80 19:06, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

That's a question for East Britain to answer Verence71 19:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

i would like to ask for membership of OBN by Northumbria--Smoggy80 13:47, July 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * The King of Northumbria has made a royal proclamation that at the earliest possible time Northumbria will hopefully be accepted into the OBN--Smoggy80 15:26, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

would the OBN be willing to have a Fascist state as part of the OBN? don't you think other democratic members may have problems with that?--Smoggy80 13:47, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

What I think would happen is that Scotland could ask about joining but the other states would put it's membership on the back-burner until Scotland had adopted a fully democratic system Verence71 15:44, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Kingdom of Cleveland has held it's referendum and the results are that the voters have said yes to joining the OBN--Smoggy80 16:05, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

East Coast Mainline
Would it be posible to rebuild some BR lines to make a new east coast mainline linking hastings to Bourne and posibly up to cleveland or northumbria?Vegas adict 21:09, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

That's definitely an idea for the future. Verence71 22:21, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Cleveland is in the process of rebuilding railway lines (as well as engines) and are reusing lines as far north as Berwick (with hopes of linking up with Glasgow shortly) and as far south as the Sheffield/Bradford/Leeds wastelands.--Smoggy80 13:45, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Having had a look at a BR map from 1981 I suspect most of the lines needed would still be intact. The only major problem would be crossing the Thames and geting to Woolbridge or Bourne as there are no direct links to there by rail. Just something to think about, prehaps the FR (Southern Englands replacement for BR) could get to Sheerness or Whitstable the goods/pasangers be taken across and it could then be taken over by Essex?Vegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

How extensive is the FR?? Verence71 17:48, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

At the moment it only operates services within Southern Englands teritory but armoured trains have gone out into the rest of Sussex so the plan is still only an idea.Vegas adict 17:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Mention of armoured trains puts me in mind of the this Russian mini series The Last Armoured Train Verence71 18:39, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

A Royal Visit
I think we should invite King Andrew of New Britain round to the three core nations. Though part of the OBN's doctrine is to avoid excessive cultural distillation in the Celtic Alliance and New Britain, it can't hurt to invite the most famous Briton in the world back to his home country, and see some of the states that have rebuilt it. Basically, we would be showing the best bits of our nations to His Majesty - and also, due to the media coverage it would provide, it would act as an advert for voters in the Kingdom of Cleveland, who are due to hold a referendum on joining the OBN on October 22nd. This is the route I would propose: That's a proposal, and I'm sure you two can think of plenty more to include on the tour. But do we like the idea of a royal visit? Fegaxeyl 12:00, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * A possible visit to Southern England depending on how King Andrew chooses to travel (if he went in a boat, it would be a bit of a spiritual 'return to Britain', harking back to the Exodus).
 * Alighting in Southend, which Essex has mostly rebuilt from the ground up. He might also see the freighters we are rebuilding (indeed, if we transported him from Port Elizabeth to here in a freighter that would be saying a lot about our nations).
 * Travelling to Maldon, where Essex is constructing its two new airships. Ideally, one or both could be launched on the King's visit.
 * Following the River Chelmer into Chelmsford, to see the capital and make a speech of some sort.
 * A detour westwards to the site of the Battle of Takeley, which as we all know is where Essex defeated the TBA, showing our military strength.
 * A possible visit to Saffron Walden, though as this the site of a major defeat that might outweigh the sentiment from visiting.
 * Travelling to Haverhill, in the Codominion of West Suffolk, though only briefly.
 * A whistle-stop tour through the Codominions on our new rail line, into East Britain.
 * Stopping off at Ely to honour the graves of the Woodbridge troops near the city.
 * On towards Bourne, the capital, for another speech.
 * Possibly to the coast, and then along to King's Lynn.
 * Following the River Great Ouse southwards, passing into the Codominion of West Norfolk.
 * Into Woodbridge, possibly up to Lowestoft to see the launching of a new freighter.
 * Over to the airfields as a part of the nation's history, which is probably the only time we'll see the Stars and Stripes waving instead of the Union Flag on the entire tour.
 * Finally, into Woodbridge proper, to the capital of the OBN, to make one more, and by far the grandest speech, basically summing up how awesome our three nations are and hoping for closer trade links between the OBN and New Britain. Having the EAS Cavalier or some of Woodbridge's HC-130s flying over with confetti and suchlike, with a parade of the Royal Guardsmen and other soldiers, would be deeply gratifying and be a fitting climax to the showcasing of our nations' capabilities.
 * King Andrew then takes one of our freighters, or a New British one, back home.
 * It looks good to meVegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm all for the idea of a royal visit. No doubt King Andrew would have a sizeable contingent from the New British media with him who could take back news of the visit make the people of Britain aware of the existence of our nations. I have an idea for something else for the list. How a crossing of the Orwell Bridge?? Not sure where it would fit into the itineray though Verence71 17:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * That could happen on the way back from Woodbridge, though as it's after the climax of his visit it wouldn't hold as much significance. Fegaxeyl 18:01, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If Southern England is inducted into the OBN the King might visit Chichester cathedral which is due to be under control by the Federal Army by the end of the month and he could then go to Southend on the RNV Isle of Wight which is the Republican Navies flagship.Vegas adict 18:04, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. After everything it's been through, the OBE deserves to show off a bit, plus I can see the appeal in showing the New British how well those who stayed behind are doing, "Against All Odds" and all that. Plus as the OP said it'd also be a way of convincing the Cleveish voters to vote 'yes' in the upcoming referedum. Given that Cleveland is the only one of the English nations with any real industry (in fact compared to the current OBE members it's practically a powerhouse), is an LoN member, and is heading towards unification with Northumbria, making them a sort of package deal, the OBE is undoubtably very keen to have them on board.Tessitore 21:35, August 9, 2010 (UTC)Tessitore

I suppose while he is in Woodbridge King Andrew could:
 * Attend a football match between Woodbridge Town and an invitational XI from the the New British visitors
 * Attend or even address a meeting of the OBN's Council of Nations Verence71 18:34, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Something else that has just occured to me. While he's in West Norfolk, King Andrew could visit the old royal estate of Sandringham. Verence71 19:36, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Something has just occured to me too. Although probably not an 'offical' part of the visit and certainly not part of the tour, he could pay a visit to Cleveland, or more accurately it's royal family. As I've already said though, this wouldn't be part of the tour, just him taking the opportunity to visit family while 'in the area'.Tessitore 00:22, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly. The tour's hidden aim is to show off the OBN not just to the world, but also to Cleveland voters for the October 22nd referendum. King Andrew could always make a visit to Cleveland, which would be as much about visiting the family as it would be about carrying the message across to Cleveland - not that the OBN possesses the authority to make him do so. Fegaxeyl 10:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Do we have a proposed date for the trip yet?? I only ask cos if it's in October it might clash with the Europa Games that Woodbridge is thinking of taking part in. It wouldn't look good if PM Robson was not in Woodbridge to greet King Andrew but it might also be deemed to be a bit "off" if he didn't attend the EG opening ceremony. Verence71 15:48, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Assuming he does one or two thinks on our itinerary a day then we're looking about half a month to complete. Perhaps the later half of September could suffice, say from 14th-30th? If King Andrew makes his speech on the 29th that would leave the next day for him to cross the Orwell Bridge and board the ship that'll take him home (or to Cleveland for his quick visit, which would probably take a day or three to complete). That would leave just enough time for PM Robson to take a break then head off to the opening ceremony. Fegaxeyl 16:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Great :) Verence71 19:16, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Given that the visit begins on Tuesday, are there any final changes we wish to make? Fegaxeyl 12:22, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it's possible that there might be protests about the visit along the lines of having a go at Andy for doing a runner post-Doomsday Verence71 16:05, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, personally I don't think that'd be the sort of thing that'll lead to protests. Cat calls, smart arsed comments in the media and general mickey taking on the other hand... (for some reason, I can't help but imagine that New Britain is the butt of a fair few jokes in the British survivor states).Tessitore 23:34, September 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there any chance of Andrew spending some time in Cleveland? Queen Anne II is his only surviving sibling, plus he has two new Grandnephews to meet. It would be strange to travel all this far and not meet any of his surviving family? --Smoggy80 15:17, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Any ideas for his transportation up to Cleveland? Fegaxeyl 18:59, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that Andy is ending up in Woodbridge perhaps the New British ship that brought him to Southern England could dock in Lowestoft harbour and then take him up the coast to Cleveland?? Verence71 19:27, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought that was staying docked in Southern England, or going as far as Southend. Perhaps one of our freighters could take him there - rather than visiting Lowestoft before Woodbridge, he could do it the other way round, and then take the ship up to Cleveland, stay for a few days, then come back, up the Deben, travel across Orwell Bridge, back to Southend and finally home. Fegaxeyl 20:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's an idea and it would also show off to the world that we are not just agricultural societies, that we do have some industry Verence71 08:28, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Again theres still the RNV Isle of Wight, it might make up for the fact that he hasn't spent much time in Southern EnglandVegas adict 18:25, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would recommend that he lands in either Whitby harbour (if in a small boat) or Hartlepool (if in a bigger ship) then he could take the train to Middlesbrough (whilst taking in some of the sights of the Cleveish countryside and industry) to meet Queen Anne--Smoggy80 17:49, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

Southern England
As you may have guessed the Liberal party won the Southern England elections which means that they will apply to join the OBN. Do any of the original three OBN creators have a problem with this?Vegas adict 14:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

I certainly don't. When do you intend to hold the referendum for joining? Fegaxeyl 15:31, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as the Liberals made it one of thier election pledges to join the OBN and they were elected into power i'm not sure that they'd consider one necisary. If the OBN insisted however it would probabley be around the end of AugustVegas adict 15:41, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

The founding members created the OBN after the population spoke up, but as it was initially an idea thought up by the Essex government so that probably wouldn't count as a referendum. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Southern England part of the OBN by the end of the month - in which case, you might want to propose some sights for King Andrew to see in your nation in the section above. Fegaxeyl 15:51, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

OBN new flag
What with the possible admittance of three new states (Northumbria, Cleveland, Southern England) I have made this new flag. Basically, its got one star for each state in the OBN and it shows in gold the actual area of the OBN. Bob 11:38, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nice, though the territories of Southern England aren't shown. You'll have to consult with Vegas Adict over what exactly these territories are, because I believe he was invading Sussex... Fegaxeyl 11:51, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me Verence71 19:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

This will need another version with Lancaster and Rheged, assuming they eventually join. Fegaxeyl 10:30, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the symbol of brittannia, personification of the island. From the 50p coins.193.61.234.13 22:06, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Europa Games
The people in charge of this article have said they would be more than happy to have the nations of the OBN compete. They made the suggestion that we travel to the games together but compete as seperate nations. I was thinking possibly that we could all travel to the games on one of the converted boats we got from the Nordic Union Verence71 14:22, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

There's always the EAS Cavalier. Given that it was bought from Prussia and it would be flying the athletes there... Fegaxeyl 17:44, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Theres also the RNV Isle of Wight, giant hovercraft have quite an impresive impactVegas adict 18:38, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

What would be the passenger capacity of those vehicles?? Verence71 18:43, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

OTL crew of the Graf Zeppelin was 40, passengers 20, though with modern innovations from Germany this could probably be about a crew of 25, passengers 50 or so. But because it can fly it is more practical - and the RNV Isle of Wight would probably be, with all due respect, useless if the Atlantic was choppy (and it has far longer to go - across the North Sea, past Denmark, whereas the EAS Cavalier can just cut across the Low Countries and North Germany) As the scheduled royal visit leaves little time between its end and the opening ceremony the faster option would be better, though the bulk of attending teams could travel via hovercraft. Fegaxeyl 18:55, August 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hang on Fegaxeyl, the SR.N4 MKII (The model that the RNV Isle of Wight is) can operate in seas up to 11 ft 6 in (3.5 m) high and with 57.5-mile-per-hour (92.5 km/h) winds. It has a top speed of eighty three knots and original had a capacity of 245 passengers however i suspect the conversion to a military vessel will have cut the speed to seventy and the passengers to 170.Vegas adict 19:38, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

How about this?? Send most of the teams in the Isle of Wight and one of the converted freighters weeks before the start of the games so they can get in some training in Prussia before the games and then have dignitaries from the three nations fly over in EAS Cavalier nearer the time Verence71 19:03, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

The only countries attending for now to Europa Games are from the balkans, the Caucasus, prussia, and woodbrudge so please the country who is attending please write the name here: VENEZUELA 19:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Essex (though I'm not very good on sports, help would be needed)
 * 2) Southern England

Chairman
Unless anyone has better ideas, I'm going to put Simon Burns (current MP for Chelmsford) as the OBN's chairman. He'll be the one welcoming Southern England to the Organisation. Fegaxeyl 12:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

How about Bob Russell?? Verence71 19:20, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose he would do too, though the OBN's Britishness probably means that it would appeal to more conservative politicians - Simon Burns, or even OTL East Anglian UKIP members. Fegaxeyl 18:58, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

If it's Tories you're looking for how about Alan Haselhurst who at the time of Doomsday would have been MP for Saffron Walden for 4 years?? Verence71 19:44, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Russell (if I'm reading his bio right) would have been killed on Doomsday from the Colchester nuke. Haselhurst, assuming he survived, would be a viable candidate, but with his background in Saffron Walden he may have retired following the War to deal with rebuilding the town. That would leave Burns as the current Chairman. Fegaxeyl 16:03, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, Burns it is then. How about if Chairman of the OBN is a rotating post with each nation taking it in turns to have one of their citizens as Chairman?? Verence71 18:44, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of shropshire
is it OK for Kingdom of Shropshire to be a member of the OBN--Owen1983 13:20, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It should probably wait until the article is graduated. Mitro 14:05, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

As Owens been banned, again, and Shropshire's page been marked obsolete does anyone have a problem with me starting a page based around Staffordshire, Shropshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire?--Smoggy80 18:16, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Application for links with OBN
Due to the application of Northumbria, and the expected referendum in Cleveland to be positive toward a membership application of the OBN, The Rheged Co-Operative would like to set up links with the OBN with the hopes of a membership application in the near future.

I don't see an issue with this, though I thought the co-operative didn't see itself as a nation, so that could make representation somewhat more difficult... At this rate, the OBN might be comprised of every British (or certainly every English) state by the end of 2010, possibly mid-2011. Fegaxeyl 20:06, September 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that Lancaster is going to be holding a referendum on the matter as soon as the article graduates you're probably right about that. I did briefly consider having Lancaster as the 'British Switzerland' ie completely neutral, but it didn't fit or make much sense. For one thing the trade advantages alone would be worth it and for another, while they and the CA are getting on fine at the moment, it never hurts to have backup when you've got a much bigger and more powerful neighbor, particuarly since the area between Lancaster's southern border and the Mersey is going to become an issue in the future. Also they wouldn't want Cleveland to think they've gone one better then them. *grin* I don't think all the English states will be joining though, although the one that definitely won't (Matlock) is probably going to get ganged up on eventully.Tessitore 22:02, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that we could soon have 8 member states (Woodbridge, Essex, East Britain, Cleveland, Northumbria, Southern England, Lancaster and Rheged) it would make sense to increase the size of the Council of Nations from it's current 5 representatives per nation to something like 10. In that event perhaps each of Rheged's representatives could come from a seperate town in the Co-Operative. Verence71 19:52, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Matlock isn't really a real nation, just a tiny little city state. Basically an independent version of the towns of Rheged. There are doubtless dozens, possibly hundreds more like it scattered across the former UK. Fegaxeyl 20:00, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Matlock isn't really a real nation, just a tiny little city state. Basically an independent version of the towns of Rheged. There are doubtless dozens, possibly hundreds more like it scattered across the former UK. Fegaxeyl 20:00, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Scottish New State has made a number of reforms in an attempt to make themselves more desirable for membership. This is probably just because it wants some support before the planned takeover of the remaining areas of Scotland. Bob 17:53, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, depending on how relations with the Celtic Alliance go, the OBN might simply want an ally in the form of Scotland, rather than bothering about their exact politics. Though it's likely they'd try to ensure that Scotland is a stable democratic state, post-Doomsday (even 27 years hence) you'd want as many allies, and as many resources, as possible, even if they happen to be racial supremacists and authoritarian. In World War Two the Allies had Brazil, which was a pretty fascistic state and even had a derivation of Nazi philosophy that was fairly popular. Fegaxeyl 19:00, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

just to let everyone know
i don't know if you are all aware of the page Owen has set up Provincial United Kingdom (1983: Doomsday) i don't know what you want to do with it? i can think of a few things!--Smoggy80 18:00, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ther Provincial UK respects the sovereignty of British survivor nations --Owen1983 18:49, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop treating this like an RPG Owen. Your article is a proposal, it is not canon yet. Mitro 18:52, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Map
Do you think the map should show all lands claimed? i was thinking that areas that were nuked and still unihabitable but claimed should be coloured for respective countries for example Brigton area isn't included in the Southern England map but is part of Southern England? and the area around Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield wasteland in South Yorkshire is a claimed part of Cleveland even though its non habitable but it's not shown on the map. it might show borders between nations a bit better? just an idea.--Smoggy80 10:36, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

That's possible, but you'd have to draw the line somewhere or it would be extremely difficult to put in all the 1kt bombs. And besides, uninhabitable could be somewhat subjective - theoretically anyone could live there, just not for very long without endangering their health. I think it's a good idea, but for maximum effect we may need a bigger map. Fegaxeyl 16:14, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Definatly ignore the tactical nukes as they would be inhabitable by now (the radiation would be well and truly gone by now) even the 100KT/200KT blast areas would be relativly safe (apart from say half a mile around the detonation zone) which would be too small to show on the map anyway. Only areas with a total yield of 1MT or more would be unihabitable for a long while.

I'm only saying this because I've currently got someone trying to set up a nation in the little white area between Northumbria and Cleveland called the Gateshead Republic--Smoggy80 17:03, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

OBN-New Britain links
In the aftermath of the royal visit, how do we feel about intensifying trade links with New Britain? Or would this compromise the OBN's position of resisting foreign influence? In my opinion this anti-foreign stance is slowly becoming exclusively 'anti-Celtic' - we've participated in the wider European community, Woodbridge was considering joining the ADC, and, of course, there's the visit itself. If we will increase cooperation between the Exodus State and the Homeland (hmm... new terms there?) then I would suggest this little idea I had of mine - a colony established somewhere on the African or Spanish coastline to act as a midway point for trade between the two nations. A New Gibraltar, if you would. Also, we may see some OBNers in the British Antarctic Territory... but I'm just blue-sky thinking now. What are our opinions? Fegaxeyl 16:14, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

As is happens there is already an English colony, Avalon, off the coast of the African state of Guinea-Bissau which would serve the purpose. Greater trade links would be a good idea but I would be concerned if that also led onto greater political links. I would imagine that none of the OBN member states wouldn't want to end up as a colony of New Britain so to speak Verence71 19:55, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Why doesn't the OBN establish an African Trading Company, build trading posts along the coast of Africa and establish closer trading links with our New British cousins. Bob 09:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of states along the West African coast so there would have to be some sort of agreement with them Verence71 17:15, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

So long as they stay as trading posts, surely there is benefit for all? We will benefit from the wealth of West Africa and they will benefit from trade links across the African continent. Bob 17:29, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

That could certainly work Verence71 15:34, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I had the additional thought that having multiple trade links spanning numerous latitudes would give everyone involved a fairly diverse range of produce. Not the sort of variety we have today, but certainly an improvement. Even something as small as apples - rather than being seasonal, we would see large exports of the fruit going north, and then south, each year, keeping all nations involved constantly supplied. That would be quite a big thing in the post-Doomsday world. And by establishing companies associated with any trading posts in OTL Ivory Coast and Ghana, we could even resume production of chocolate.

Assuming we have enough willing colonists and the cooperation of the West African Union, this scheme would be feasible to establish. Are we willing to submit this idea as a page? Fegaxeyl 17:08, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, though British nations will probably become economically reliant on West Africa. Bob 17:25, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Dang, that's a good point. How can we balance better trade opportunities with economic independence? Fegaxeyl 18:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC) EDIT: Then again, how major an issue would that be in the post-DD world? Fegaxeyl 20:35, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

You'd be suprised. It might be just me but I kind of get the impression that the years of having to get by on their own has resulted in the survivour states developing stubborn streaks to one degree or another. On a related note, how many ports would still be operational in the various OBN nations? Would it be feasible for the OBN nations to act as a sort of hub for international trade, particuarly if they manage to develop a decently sized merchant fleet? Admittedly this is just an extension of some of my musings about Lancaster (it's got a rather large number of ports in relation to it's size so I've been trying to figure out what to do with them) but it might still have potential. Also, never mind chocolate, what about tea? They do grow the stuff in Africa after all.Tessitore 20:21, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Woodbridge has a fair-sized (by post Doomsday Britain standards) port at Lowestoft. It's also a garrison town and serves as headquarters of the Woodbridge Navy (such as it is) Verence71 00:08, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Lancaster's got three that are currently in use, namely Fleetwood, Heysham, and Glasson Dock, all of which are quite large, plus the docks at Preston which have been disused since the town was mostly abandoned. As I said, it has a lot of ports for it's size (by the by, I'm still not sure what to do with them but it seems a shame to let them go to waste, so if anyone has any suggestions, let me know on my talk page). Tessitore 13:48, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have Southern England's ports as regional/international ports and shipyards, lancasters could be used for a similar purpose. If we are looking for an international hub for trade though i would sugest the port of Cowes in Southern England, it is allready used by the trade vessels from the CA and Prussia that dock their and also has large maintance facilities to repair ships that have become damaged. In addition its posistion on the south coast means that it would be easier for ships to dock their and thier cargo could then be stored and transfered to ships going to other OBN statesVegas adict 22:20, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, VA. Perhaps it would serve as a 'hub' for transportation to other British nations - so trans-Atlantic freighters from West Africa or New Britain stop, swap supplies with smaller, coastal trade vessels from Lancaster, the OBN Core States, and Cleveland-Northumbria, and then return, whilst the little ships spread out to their destinations. Fegaxeyl 23:00, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

Northumbria/Cleveland OBN inclusion date
Any idea what the date will be for the inclusion of Northumbria and Cleveland into the OBN, just i'd like to add it to the pages.--Smoggy80 18:54, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking either the 7th or 14th. Fegaxeyl 22:56, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

November or December?--Smoggy80 11:36, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

November. Fegaxeyl 13:46, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

A textbook error
Flicking through a textbook, I found a part which said that the UK had a system of dealing with nuked cities - the military would surround the area and prevent people from leaving. Though it sounds vaguely plausible, I'm sceptical, partly because it sounds incredibly difficult to do and the textbook also called Mutually Assured Destruction a 'doctrine'. Do any of you have any knowledge whether or not this is true? Fegaxeyl 17:14, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about the book but the only problem with that idea is that the military would've been hard hit well before any cities were hit (military targets would have had preference over populated areas in any war, even a nuclear war - mainly to stop retaliation). So it would be unlikely that any surviving military would be around to guard the nuked cities.

Also, in all likelyhood any 'theory' in a textbook or even a major pre-exisiting military order would've gone out the window when the first bombs began detonating. --Smoggy80 14:47, November 7, 2010 (UTC)

North Sea oil reserves
I've been thinking about Cleveland starting to build some oil rigs to try and tap any oil reserves that exist still under the North Sea (i'm vaugely aware of reading somewhere they got nuked on DD), i was wondering if the oil pipelines could come ashore in Lincolnshire or somewhere along the Norfolk coastline, anyone got any ideas where?--Smoggy80 17:56, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

http://www.npd.no/Global/Engelsk/3%20-%20Publications/Reports/OneNorthSea/Fig-11.jpg

This map shows the pipelines currently in place under the North Sea. One of the oil lines seems to end up north of the Humber, which I believe is Cleveish territory. However, it seems the majority of gas pipelines are scattered around Norfolk, giving East Britain and Woodbridge a nice cut at its distribution and supply.

Does anyone mind telling me what gas and oil are helpful for? Some obvious examples come to mind, but does anyone mind elaborating on their uses? Fegaxeyl 18:14, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well the obvious diesel and petrol for military and agricultural uses, as well petrolium products such as tarmac for roads, plastics manufacture and inorganic fertilizers.

i was thinking of bringing an oil and gas line into Cleveland, but the southern oil fields could supply southern OBN nations--Smoggy80 18:24, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lancaster's Application to Join
A referendum has been held and the results were in favour of joining, partly because Lancaster seems to have a habit of copying Cleveland, but largely for the economic advantages and because Lancaster shares a border with the CA and while things are civil at the moment, it never hurts to have some back-up when you've got a much stronger next-door neighbour. Tessitore 20:48, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I vote we retcon in their admission to coincide with Cleveland and Northumbria's admission. Provided Mumby can provide an updated, 7-star flag - out of his infinite kindness and charity :D - then I would be happy to sort out the situation. Fegaxeyl 20:53, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Would that really work, given that Lancaster applied some time after Cleveland and Northumbria (the referendum was on 3rd November, so the application wouldn't have be sent off until about the 5th)? Tessitore 21:11, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Their applications both turned up around the 1st or 3rd, so it wouldn't be impractical for the Lancastrian application to be seen as part of the same package. Fegaxeyl 21:20, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

When will Lancaster be made part of the OBN? and do we back date it? as the application was made well over a year ago, maybe make it part of the OBN mid 2011?--Smoggy80 17:59, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also does the WFA get accepted at the same time? as it is a protectorate of Lancaster--Smoggy80 18:03, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Immigration
Okay, as we all know, the various British survivour nations are underpopulated and suffering from labour shortages to one degree or another. The fastest way to fix this is of course immigration from countries outside the British Isles and with this in mind I was wondering if the OBN would be inclined to give things a bit of encouragement, and if so, how best to go about it, not to mention which countries would be best to attract immigrates from. Personally I think Italy would be a good bet, since given the situation there I can imagine that there'd be plenty of people who'd jump at the chance of a quiet life well away from Sicily, but on the other hand their population is pretty low as well. Any thoughts?Tessitore 21:00, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

There's only one problem with immigrants, yes they fill the empty jobs, however if there is a bad harvest they also eat the food that would've gone to locals.

I can't imagine many nations wanting to take the risk of increasing their populations too quickly at the moment, most having only just got their farming systems up and running fairly efficently and what with most of the food production systems being back at 18th centuary levels with very little mechinisation. maybe in a few more years once counties have a food surplus?--Smoggy80 16:39, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

If we think about it, the trade with nations such as the West African Union or other nations in Africa such as those within the African Economic Community, there will undoubtedly be immigration from Africa especially considering the unstable nature of the continent and the fact that populations wouldn't be hugely different from now so they may well be suffering from unemplyment where ours suffer from labour shortages. Ans East Briatin is certainly encouraging population growth as it aims to take control over the entire county of Lincolnshire. I should imagine expansion will be fairly easy until they get about half wya up, where there will still be ligering raditaion and less people to draw upon. So immigration will deinitely be encouarged. On a secondary point, am I right in thinking that the Nordics will invest in the British nations and so we can receive some migrants from Scandinavia though they will probably be temporary, migrants sent to ensure businesses owned by Nordics set up properly. Mumby 18:15, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

In response to Smoggy's point, it's true that most nations won't want to get rid of their people; fortunately for us, many people have no nation, some of them close at hand. The unclaimed portions of France and Benelux, for example, would likely contain a reasonable (though not vast) labour force which in many cases would have at least a grounding in English, something that would make integration and immigration that much easier. Even closer to home, we may be able to draw some people out of the Celtic Alliance (though only those concerned more with Britishness than standard of living), plus a good few million people in the Midlands. Fegaxeyl 18:38, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

How do you suppose we get people ou of the Benelux countries? Do we just send across some chaps to covince them to come over? Tell thome the streets of Chelmsford are paved with gold? Mumby 19:07, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

It might work; perhaps not by telling them the streets are paved with gold, but certainly by promising them a reasonably better standard of living. And at least within the Benelux area there would be fewer cultural and social barriers. That's not to say that immigration from somewhere further afield - such as Africa - would be impossible, and certainly not undesirable; I'm simply suggesting that it may make cultural integration and acceptance a little easier. Even whilst trying to stay open and multicultural, 27 years of near-isolation has to breed some form of casual racism in a predominantly white population, even if it is mild. Fegaxeyl 19:16, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

You are right about casual racism, but its not as if this Britain is the same as the 18th century Britain. I mean in Cleveland some of the officially recognised languages are from Asia due to their tradionally higher birth rates in thise particular ethnic groups. But surely people from South Africa or West Africa will still speak English? Mumby 19:44, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'll concur to your better judgement. Africa is definitely not my field of expertise. Fegaxeyl 20:00, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

According to the article on the West Africa Union, the organisation has English as one it's official languages. I just had a looked at the wikipedia articles for the member states OTL and four of them have English as an O.L; Ghana, Nigeria, The Gambia and Cameroon.

The question of racial prejudice might not be in Woodbridge as a large % of the USAF troops that helped to found the state were of African-American or Hispanic origin Verence71 20:57, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

And we've just fought a war against a racially prejudiced enemy. We have seen with our own yes the evils of prejudice and hate. Hopefully we wouldn't be so blind to make the same mistakes as the TBA.Mumby 18:03, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

TBA
I've added to the True British Army page that the possible capital that has been occupied by the TBA since 2008 is Corby in Northamptonshire, does anyone have a problem with that, if not i'll make it official.--Smoggy80 18:46, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Corby or Northampton would be fine Verence71 20:53, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

it'll have to be Corby as Northampton was hit in the third wave of DD attacks with a 200KT bomb so would be currently uninhabitable--Smoggy80 18:41, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough :) Verence71 00:10, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

OK so the TBA capitals Corby in Northamptonshire i've added a bit about the TBA having activities in the former counties surrounding Northamptonshire.

If, in the future, the militaries of East Britain, Woodbridge and Essex would like to invade and finally destroy the TBA the militaries of both Cleveland and Northumbria will give all assistance the OBN nations. Eventually the TBA will need to be removed to make the former UK a more stable place --Smoggy80 18:20, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

The way I picture it, the TBA is already out of the picture. Not only did they sustain heavy casualties in the last war (especially the counteroffensive into Essex) their leadership was also assassinated in the process. Given the TBA's nature - a number of roving, fuedal-like clans running protection rackets over much of the countryside - it'll be hard for a new leader to crystallise immediately. However, there is the chance that in some of the more central areas (which in my mind went through North Korea-esque conditioning) things would be more marshal and orderly rather than gang-based, so a new regime could rise up. However, I've got the feeling that if/when the TBA does return, it'll be in the order of years, likely decades, unless something beneficial comes their way,

Has anyone considered refugees from TBA territory fleeing to the Core OBN states? Fegaxeyl 20:09, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

It occurs to me that after the Wars of 2010 the civilians under their control would be aware of the absolute kicking the TBA got so perhaps they wouldn't be as scared as they were before and so some would be emboldened enough to do a runner.

I like the idea of a core TBA area still existing where the general populace isn't so aware of outside events. It might be an idea for Woodbridge or Essex to make periodic drops of propaganda leaflets in order to stir up trouble Verence71 18:33, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

I've been toying with the idea of a Black Hawk Down-style scenario involving an Essex airship or Woodbridge helicopter crashing during some form of exercise over an enemy walled city. A leaflet drop-gone-wrong could serve as the setting for such an event. Fegaxeyl 19:57, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, chaps, the way I'm looking at things, the TBA is what nigh upon everyone calls the state, because all we've really encountered are the fringes, the wandering warlords loosely tied to a central authority. True British Army seems to men to be a very clumsy name for a nation. Should we give the TBA a more mainstream nation name. One I've come up with. The Britannic Junta Federation?or are they still the English Empire? Mumby 20:16, December 2, 2010 (UTC)Oh and as an afterthought, should we put them on the map?

How about the English National Republic??

If we're going to have a Black Hawk Down type scenario could we have it happen to a Woodbridge 'copter at some point next year?? That way it could become a cause celebre in the election we will be holding next year?? Verence71 16:39, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Much agreed, Mumby. The TBA never really satisfied me, and I only really threw it in because 'English Empire' sounded way too pretentious for a handful of counties, especially given that it would be attempting to preserve the infinitely vaster British Empire. However, what you suggested - 'wandering warlords loosely tied to a central authority' - has made me think: what if the TBA is basically a Spartan-esque society of former soldiers and officers, who have some form of alliance or pledge of service to another state with its capital in Corby? That could reconcile our new developments with my initial ideas of having the TBA capital in Milton Keynes - the TBA could use Milton Keynes as some kind of citadel-base for its armies, which the other nation - the English Empire, the Britannic Junta Federation, whatever it could be called - would employ in defense and expansion. This could mean that the TBA's protection racketeering might be some form of compensation from the state (let's say the BJF): the BJF, which holds some form of law and order, refuses to allow the TBA to do all its racist warmongering stuff within BJF territory, but turns a blind eye to the activities of the TBA elsewhere as long as the army promises to serve and respect the integrity of the BJF and assists it with expansion. This could require a little retconning, however, should still be workable.

And Verence, I've no problem with using a Woodbridge helicopter. Though an Essex airship would be a little more spectacular a sight when crashing, it's a bit more plausible that the helicopter crash would leave survivors. And I'm guessing you'd link the cause celebre in with the kerfuffle around the initial kidnapping of soldiers due to poor command skills in the West Suffolk invasion? Fegaxeyl 18:00, December 3, 2010 (UTC) PS - Just noticed the English National Republic. Sounds reasonable if the state tries to be a little more tolerant and less extreme than the TBA.

Republic doesn't necessarily mean democracy. Just think TTL Sicily or OTL North Korea or DRC. Shall I create a page for the English National Republic? Mumby 19:39, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

The whole Black Hawk Down thing would be the final straw for a lot of Woodbridgers if it was added to the mutilation and killing of non-white Woodbridge troops by the TBA in West Suffolk and the imprisonment and killing of others in and around Ely.

Fegaxeyl's suggestion of the way the Enlgish National Republic and the TBA would co-operate puts me in mind of how things worked towards the end of the Warlord Era in China Verence71 20:07, December 3, 2010 (UTC)]

I think that's a good idea, Mumby. If you get that started, and then we can start going through this with a fine-tooth comb and changing it to suit the retcon. Perhaps we should resubmit this article as a proposal?

Verence, it wouldn't be a surprise that Essex and most likely East Britain would support you too in any military operation. And thanks for the link to the warlords; anything we bring up, you always manage to have a link to an interesting tidbit of informaton at hand! Fegaxeyl 20:43, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I studied China as part of my degree and a couple of years ago I had an idea for an AH where the events of China between the World Wars would be transfered to Russia in the same period. Alexander Kerensky would take the role of Sun Yat-Sen whereas Marshal Zhukov would become Chiang Kai-Shek Verence71 15:18, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

Just occurred to me that a more Black Hawk Down-like scenario would be set in Ipswich - like the OTL event, there are friendly forces nearby meaning that motorcades or similar could quickly move into the area, but there is still significant resistance within the city (the gangs mentioned in the Woodbridge article). Exactly what the spark of the battle would be I'm unsure, but perhaps a rogue TBA group that had managed to sneak through Babergh and then united the gangs in Ipswich could work. This may well be even more a cause for concern for Woodbridgers than a similar event in TBA/ENR territory, because it is so much closer to home. Fegaxeyl 11:46, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I've added a bit to the TBA page saying that the TBA has set up a military citadel on the Hambleton Pennisular in the middle of Rutland Water, as it is the most easily defendable place i can find in the area, i thought the Capital can remain in Corby (and if Mumby is setting up the ENR it would be a good place for the capital, give the TBA and the ENR a bit of seperation) but the TBA have a base in Rutland. What does everyone think?--Smoggy80 14:05, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with it, and it certainly seems like a logical thing for them to do. If I were to make one suggestion, though, it would be that they've been working on it since 2008/9, after they lost Milton Keynes. Fegaxeyl 14:28, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

It might be fun to have the Black Hawk Down thing in Ipswich. Since Doomsday the city could well have turned into something approaching Mogadishu now where various armed groups fight for control of the city. Perhaps the leader of whichever gang controls the old Ipswich Borough Council could claim to be "Mayor" Verence71 23:08, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Newspaper
Would the OBN have the facilities to publish and distribute a single newspaper across all its member states? Not only would it be useful from an in-universe perspective and add to the sense of integration, it would also allow us, the editors, to create our own version of the NewsHour page for matters relating solely to Britain. Fegaxeyl 10:17, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

That could work as a fortnightly or monthly publication. Reports could come from all the member states to a central clearing house in Woodbridge staffed by journos from each state Verence71 12:51, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Would Woodbridge host the printing facilities, or would those be distributed across member states to save time shipping? (I'm not sure if national newspapers like The Times are printed in one location or across several.) Fegaxeyl 13:22, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Probably have seperate printworks in each state and have seperate editions for each one. Each edition would have the same basic stories but, for example the Cleveland edition could have additional articles on how the wider stories would effect Cleveland Verence71 13:57, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

So, editorials and local news to pad out the paper? Sounds good. Fegaxeyl 16:39, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

That's right. Verence71 20:08, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Any ideas for a name? The British Times? The Heritage Post? The Monthly Guardian? Fegaxeyl 20:21, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

I like the idea of The Times but as the OBN only consists of English nations (for now anyway) The English Times?? Verence71 12:30, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Personally I prefer it as 'The British Times' because it is, of course, part of the Organisation of British Nations. If we start creating the image of 'Englishness' now, we may alienate any Scottish or Welsh states interested in joining the OBN (if there are any), which in the long run is not in the OBN's interests. That said, if there were to be The Welsh Times (printed in the Welsh language) and The Scottish Times (printed in Gaelic or Scots) then it would make sense to have The English Times in the English-speaking parts of the OBN. But, personally, I'd rather have The British Times or something more neutral. Fegaxeyl 12:43, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I take the point, British Times it is :) Verence71 14:24, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Expansion Maps
It occurs to me, guys - with the addition of Lancaster and Southern England - maybe Matlock too - shouldn't there be edits or something to these future expansion maps? They're really not applicable anymore. Lordganon 21:54, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

They were only ever "provisional" any but I take your point.

Unless it changes completely I can't see Matlock ever being accepted as a member of the OBN Verence71 16:51, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

No, Matlock certainly isn't OBN material. Which reminds me, I meant to do several other city-states in the area. Back on topic, perhaps this would be a good time for us discuss plans for expansion? Fegaxeyl 16:55, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Never meant their addition to the OBN at all, lol. More that with their existence, the maps wouldn't have been drawn like that. But you guys got the point ^^

Lordganon 22:00, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think your right Fegaxeyl, I'v been thinking about the future history of a lot of my articles including Southern England and i think that, if your agreeable a general idea would involve it Expanding into the rest of sussex this year and then onto Hampshire and parts of Surrey in 2012 and then onto Dorset in 2013.Vegas adict 20:59, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Vegas, do you have any plans regarding Kent? Because I'm planning for Essex to annex that within the next year or so, following the election. I'm also interested in closer links between Essex and Southern England, perhaps relating to your point below. Would you be prepared for a deal where Essex will provide the manpower for extracting the shale gas, but in return Southern England and Essex will form even closer trade links? Fegaxeyl 21:53, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Southern England might have some intrests in Kent. The port at Folkstone would definetly be a major goal for Southern England while the power station at Dungerness is definetly a minor goal (Luckily the Reactors were both off-line on Doomsday, Reactor A had been shut down for Refueling and Reactor B hadn't been started up but had just been completed). With regards to closer links with Essex's permision Southern England might support Essex in annexing it around May-June this year instead of the rest of West Sussex (which is fairly unimportant) so long as it got Folkstone and other parts of the south coast. In addition to that i think that once Kent is occupied they can start running trains from Southern England to Essex and up to East Britain even. With regards to trade i think that Southern England could allow Essex to use its ports free of charge as well as providing technical equipment in exchange for manpower to exploit the gas deposits and foodVegas adict 16:54, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

I think that's a fair deal. That way Essex also gets Dover. I was thinking that the M20 would be a suitable line of demarcation? My only concern is that Southern England will be overstretching itself, possibly; I can see your nation annexing the coast (seeing as it's mainly a coastal trade nation, that would be in its interests) but I'm unsure how it will at the same time be able to police about five counties. Perhaps you guys could have the coast of Kent south of Folkestone, and Essex will focus more on controlling the inside of the county? We need all the farmland we can get, and Kent has plenty of it. (That's the kind of policy that Essex's next leader will be taking - more aggressive and autarkist.) Fegaxeyl 19:06, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Well southern englands stratergy when conducting expansion is to secure strategic points, IE the coast in Kent and battle in east Sussex while it makes agreements with local warlords to intergrate them into the republic. Vegas adict

Potential energy?
UK Shale Gas Map

According to this article, large portions of unclaimed territory in England possess potential shale gas reserves, Although the cost of establishing the facilities to extract the gas is high (by OTL standards, and obviously even more so ATL), there exists the chance for OBN nations to become reasonably self-sufficient for energy. Note that significant deposits are located in Cleveland, which no doubt has all the economic power and technological skill to make a serious attempt at extraction in the near future. Fegaxeyl 21:34, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Southern England has some as well but it might require some support from Essex to pull it off as while it has the Technological capacity it hasn't got the manpower requiredVegas adict 21:02, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Woodbridge Election
Woodbridge is due to hold a General Election in May 2011 and will request Electoral Observers from each of the other member states of the OBN to ensure fair play.

If it's okay with the rest of you could the "Black Hawk Down" type incident we discussed before happen a week halfway throught the campaign. As things stand at the moment the Conservative are likely to remain in power but with a reduced majority but if BHD occurs during the campaign it may tip the balance and cause them to lose their overall majority which in turn would cause some political instability Verence71 19:21, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Essex may or may not send observers, I've yet to decide. How will BHD be written? A collaboration? Should it be of a similar format to the articles on the various invasions in 2009? I'd be happy to pitch in (or write most of it!). Fegaxeyl 21:02, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Another mini-article would be good. It might be an idea if you wrote the military side of things and I concentrate on how it would affect the election Verence71 15:23, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Both Cleveland and Northumbria can send observers if needed--Smoggy80 18:19, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, Verence. If there are any pointers you'd like to make, please do! Fegaxeyl 18:48, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

I would imagine that the population of Ipswich, such as it is consists largely of criminal gangs fighting over territory and profits. Perhaps the leader of whichever gang is most powerful at any one time could call himself "Mayor of Ipswich" Verence71 19:40, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Ur Alba
Although Ur Alba is not a part of the OBN I thought I should keep members updated with Ur Alba expanstion, it now controls all the formally unclaimed land to the east of the former border with a five mile wide border between Northumbria, Rheged and the Celtic Alliance to the west and north. there are no plans for further expanstion.--Smoggy80 12:42, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

Rheged
Just to keep everyone up to date on Rheged and future changes. Rheged split in two in January into Rheged in the north (roughly the old Cumberland county) and Westmorland and Furness Alliance (WFA) in the south (old westmorland county and the Furness penninsular), Rheged will have a vote on joining the Kingdom of Northumbria in March (which will be yes) and my plans are that the WFA will join with the Duchy of Lancaster sometime late this year or early next year, --Smoggy80 17:25, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

Northern Rheged has voted seven to one to join the Kingdom of Northumbria on the 11th March, it is expected that they will become one nation in mid May 2011. So the map will need updating soon--Smoggy80 11:20, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

The British Times
The newspaper article Verence and I discussed a while back, finally created. Just use it like NewsHour, but go into more detail! And articles of lesser importance, too - minor political stuff, y'know, the likes. Fegaxeyl 17:58, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Bengali, not Bangladeshi
Iff you don't mind, I took the liberty of changing the language "Bangladeshi (which doesn't exist) and replaced it with Bengali, the actual language of Bengal and Bangladesh. Cheers, Batmanary 23:22, March 13, 2011 (UTC)

True British Army
Is the OBN planning any attack on the TBA this year? if there are plans in the pipeline both Cleveland and Northumbria can provide troops for any planned invasion.--Smoggy80 11:44, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we have anything planned at the moment Verence71 18:04, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance
Recently I left a message on Arstar's talk page:

'Hi Arstar. I'm wondering whether you have any plans regarding the Celtic Alliance. Despite being a major regional power, the CA has done, to put it colloquially, bugger all recently (besides the non-canon East British blockade). I think that this is rather implausible and unrealistic; as a large nation it should be acting at least as much as the other British nations, but presently isn't. Please understand that this isn't an attack on you - I fully appreciate you have other commitments that take up time you could spend on the CA.

However, this leads me to my next points: one, with other commitments it might be ideal to hand over control of the article to people with more time on their hands; and two, your commitments are mainly relevant to you (the plurality appear to be in the former US), meaning you wouldn't be able to go into as intimate detail as people with more local knowledge could. Where I'm heading is obvious: would you be interested in handing over caretaking responsibilities to us British editors?

This would be beneficial to the region as it would allow for more realistic progress, both in terms of timespan and local sentiment. It would also free you of at least one of your many responsibilities.

I can fully understand if you wouldn't wish to do this. I, in fact, agree that we should have at least some outside influence in the affairs of the British Isles so that we editors don't get carried away. And I can understand that controlling the CA is something of a prestigious position within the community. However, though I appreciate this, from my point of view you have (recently) devoted little time to the article itself, or the nation's affairs, leaving it unresponsive - and therefore unrealistic, especially in a changing timeline.

To sum up, I ask you to consider handing over the position of caretaker of the CA to either the British editors, or another member of the community. Or, failing that, to at least devote more time to the nation and its affairs. Thanks'

In Arstar's absence, LG replied saying:

'I'm not updating his articles for him, or anything, but I did say I'd keep half an eye on them for him. Far as I'm concerned, so long as you leave a note on his page detailing what it is, and let me know about it for some sort of approval, waiting a few days before actually adding it, you and the other Brit editors can largely do as you please with it.'

Now, I'm timid about taking full control of the article whilst Arstar still may want a share of it. But we should certainly discuss how this nation, which is basically the superpower of the British Isles, has done all but nothing in the past couple of years, as well as what actions it will have recently taken, and what it will be likely to take. That way, should Arstar cede control of the article to us, we will have a plan of action. Fegaxeyl 10:02, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, there is 4 real things for the Celts, as of canon, in the last couple years: Involvement in the Saguenay War and the Second Sicily War, the ongoing Scottish thing Smoggy is doing, and construction of what amounts to a pair of light Carriers of the Remembrance class beginning in 2010 (the second is unnamed at this time, and Canada, among others, will likely order at least one).

Like I told Feg, just run things by me first. Most anything you decide to do I'll likely sign off on anyways, lol.

Lordganon 10:13, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

It has been discussed before but I would have thought it was likely that Ulster Unionist militants would fight (literally speaking) against any combining of Ulster and the Republic. Perhaps the organization could be called the ULF or Ulster Liberation Front and their "struggle" could mirror that of the IRA with bombing campaigns and splits in the movement and an eventual peace deal with the CA govt. The govt of Ur Alba could perhaps "sponsor" radical groups who don't accept the deal. These groups could be along the lines of the Real and Continuity IRA Verence71 13:24, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I think that most of the Protestant militants would have given up the fight after the CA was formed. Although the CA isn't Protestant it also isn't Catholic and the protection that they extended to the north after Doomsday might have lessened their anger. I think there wouldn't be an IRA like movement to start with but instead the ULF might start to emerge now that they no longer need the CA's help.Vegas adict 15:39, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

With Belfast gone, and half of the protestants likely dead with it, Catholics overall may have jumped into being a slight majority in Northern Island. But, Vegas is correct.

Scotland is really not a country I find capable of supporting much of anything like that, and that would be only recently if they could at all. Without outside support, and given the nature of the CA, I find it doubtful that many would be around anyways to even try this.

Lordganon 16:08, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Jus to keep everyone upto date with my plans for Ur Alba, they're going to start a war they can't win against the CA, get their arses kicked and that will cause a popular rebellion in Ur Alba leading to democratic governmental change, this'll all happen this year so it's unlikely that they'll be up to sponsoring terrorism.

I can see that British editors taking over the CA makes sense, but we must make that there is a consensus before any changes on any major issues or changes.

Speaking of changes, one that i've mentioned on the CA talk pages is that I would've expected both the Cornish and the Welsh nationalism causes to have started asking for independence by now--Smoggy80 16:35, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I wonder about that point on nationalism, Smoggy. Yes, such things would occur, but we're still only 30 years after DD, and there'd still be the need for everyone to band together to survive... even if that surpasses nationalistic boundaries. Of course, that doesn't preclude a minority - or a large minority - seeking independence in Cornwall, Wales, or Brittany. After all, what with Rheged going, and the rise of Albion, we may need some new players to keep our heptarchy at full numbers... Fegaxeyl 17:46, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

If Ur Alba does go democratic they would be more than welcome to join the OBN Verence71 20:35, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking about the nationalism, after all it is a Celtic 'Alliance' which to me seems to insinuate that it is a group of nations joining together for a mutual good (like re-building after DD) whilst preserving national identity, now its nearly 30 years after DD this alliance could be faltering in nations that have nationalism ingrained into it's society (like Wales, Cornwall and Brittany) it could be possible that these nationalist groups may be taking a greater role in the Celtic government (like Plaid Cymru in ATL Wales or the SNP in Scotland) and like in ATL Welsh and Scottish governments, be asking for more and more autonomy from the government in Dublin--Smoggy80 11:26, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the governmental structure in the Alliance is already like the otl UK government, just with the main section (England there, Ireland here) having a parliament of its own as well. But, the nationalist groups are not nearly as strong with regards to nationalism as you believe, either. Nor is the Alliance breaking up in the British Isles at all. Lordganon 12:09, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

What is happening with the Celtic Alliance page? is anyone editing it anymore? its just that i've got some updates that need doing in relation to the Ur Alba War. Will the British editors on DD be taking over the editing as discussed previously? --Smoggy80 18:16, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Let's go ahead and drop a message on the talk page that we've taken over. Fegaxeyl 18:22, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

How would we edit the CA between us?? Put ideas up for discussion on the CA talk page?? Verence71 18:41, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

For big issues yeah, though for smaller ones we'd have to take individual initiative. We can't put everything up to group discussion, after all! Fegaxeyl 19:26, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

I should point out that Arstar did in fact give us the thumbs-up a month ago, but I hadn't checked his talk page! Fegaxeyl 21:12, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yup, he did give you guys permission to update it. No need to run things by me now either, though as per his request of me to keep an eye on things with his articles for him while he's gone, I'll still be keeping an eye on what you're doing ;)

Lordganon 04:31, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

As you may have realised i've been doing a bit of editing on the Celtic page, i've approached Louisannan (who has nations in that area) about expanding the Celtic Alliance in former France, uniting Brittany and Lower Normandy into one area rather than two seperate areas, i've also asked if the whole of Lower Normandy or possibly the whole of Normandy could be included in the Celtic Alliance.

Is this ok with everyone? --Smoggy80 16:48, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't bother me but I dare say the French survivor states in the area wouldn't be best pleased Verence71 17:52, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Quite frankly, you don't need to ask Louis for anything, here. None of the French states are even close to the area, nor could they do anything about it. Quite honestly, it makes no sense for them to care, or to not use the advantages it gives them. Lordganon 21:14, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

That's going a bit far, smoggy. They have a claim - weak, but it exists - to Normandy and Brittany themselves, and are then entitled to land between the two for some sort of land route. But what you have there is too much. Lordganon 23:42, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Smoggy, that is too much of France - the CA is not taking that much. Knock it down a peg.

You guys have permission to update it - he did not give you the article. Keep that in mind with land claims, too.

Anything past updating still has to be run past me.

Lordganon 19:41, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

I have contacted the editor of all the possibly adjoining French territories and when he gets back to me we can decide on borderlines between their nations and the CA, not all the areas on the map will become part of the CA, in fact i can imagine that only Lower Normandy and the western part of Upper Normandy will become part of the CA, the rest will become part of the successor nations to France.--Smoggy80 18:30, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Then that is what needs to be said. Not that they are taking it. Because no matter if you hear from Louis or not - I highly doubt it, mind - it's not happening.

The Caen section is impossible. If the city was still there, it would be part of the alliance already. It is not, and as such, it is gone.

Both parts need to be edited/removed.

Lordganon 21:47, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

New London
I've been reading the CA article and i'm having concerns about New London being part of the CA, if it exists at all. If it does exist i think it would be part of Essex or Southern England. However it's more likely it doesn't exist at all.

What does everyone think? remove it? or change its affiliation to another nation? --Smoggy80 15:33, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing at all wrong with it. New London is a base of operations in control of parts of Western London. Simple.

Remember as well, that you're allowed to add to and update the article, but not to remove things.

Lordganon 23:40, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

If a part is not plausable, and Arstars effectivly handed over control to OBN editors then why can we not remove parts that make no rational sense?--Smoggy80 18:26, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

He did not hand over control. He gave you guys permission to update it. Massive difference.

And it is plausible.

Lordganon 21:34, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. From my point of view, New London could be plausible, depending on the timeframe it's established in. And depending on when, we can get some very interesting results out of it.

Suppose that it's established between 1995-2000. Within that timeframe, who is the major regional power (at least to the CA's attention)? The TBA. It's already established that the CA has 'end cycle centres' scattered across what is officially TBA territory and some kind of political representation for those areas too. In my interpretation the end cycle centres, while initially just humanitarian euthanasia camps, were quietly turned into death camps for the TBA; after all, a Celtic official, a long way from home and with a not-too-nice job, would probably be happy to accept anything to make their stay a little more comfortable. The TBA would probably be able to put together a nice little bribe to keep CA officials looking the other way - or just use a bit of coercion.

I'm pretty sure the Celts and the TBA had quite a bit of dealing with one another. To the Celts, England would be divided into the weak Southern English who they don't need to bother with in the south, the Clevelanders and their posse who aren't too much of a threat, and the TBA in the middle who might be rough but appear to be the only government (and an extensive one at that) so it's better to cooperate with them. They certainly wouldn't be interested in moving heaven and earth to destroy just one of the many dictatorships in Britain (bear in mind, of course, that Southern England was at this point a dictatorship too) so it would be better simply to level with them. The TBA would probably be happy to have the Celtic Alliance run a small bit of territory they've no interest in claiming just so long as they get a few privileges and blind eyes turned their way in return.

I imagine this association would go along quite merrily until everything changes in 2008. Most likely knowledge of the Celtic-TBA relations are either known or are about to become known to the British public; this would explain why the British public are so anti-Celt and would lead to the OBN becoming even more anti-Celt overall. What happens next... well, that's outside the scope of this debate. Fegaxeyl 20:11, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Fegaxeyl, the Celts might have worked with the Southern English when it benefited them but there would be no way they'd hand it over to the Southern English to run. Besides the responsility of looking after the refugees from the most nuked city in the UK would be to much for the Southern English or Essaxsons to handle. Therefore if New London exists it is most likely a CA refugee camp.Vegas adict 17:04, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Ur Alba - Celtic Alliance war
To keep everyone updated, and if you haven't already seen the news page, Ur Alba and Celtic Alliance are officially at war now, further info will follow--Smoggy80 17:09, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

The thought occurs to me that, if necessary the CA would be able to call for assistance from the other members of the Atlantic Defense Community Verence71 18:13, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose that they could, though this is definitely a case where there wouldn't be much point to it. By the time that any ADC forces can be committed, it'll be over. Lordganon 05:45, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

I dont think the CA will need assistance as there military is FAR FAR superior to Ur Alba's military, plus the CA, as far as I can tell, has the most advanced military of all the former British nations.--Smoggy80 15:05, April 28, 2011 (UTC)

CA military hardware
Would it be feasible for Woodbridge to purchase some this, mostly military helicopters?? Verence71 15:01, May 27, 2011 (UTC)

military and civilian assitance for smaller nations
I've added to the Newolland talk page that the Cleveland and Northumbrian have offered military and civilian technical assitance in the colonisation (or civilisation) of North Lincolnshire. I was thinking that this could be a good idea for OBN nations for the larger more advanced nations to help the smaller OBN nations, what does everyone think?

I was thinking as that long as any assitance in taking new land for any other nation is noted before help is given (so that no land grabs can occur) then this could lead to the expantion of the various former British nations into the uncontrolled, but uncontaminated areas more quickly.--Smoggy80 18:05, May 31, 2011 (UTC)

Lincolnshire assimilation project
The Lincolnshire assimlation project with the assitance of the Royal Cleveland Territorial Army and Royal Cleveland Navy is underway, updates will be on the British Times and Cleveland pages.--Smoggy80 14:02, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

For further info see Lincolnshire Assimilation Project (1983: Doomsday)--Smoggy80 17:13, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

Changing the PM of Woodbridge
Just a quick note to you all that I have done a bit of retconning and the name of the Prime Minister of Woodbridge is now Mark Bee who in OTL is the leader of Suffolk County Council. Verence71 18:34, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

May I ask why, and where ol' John Robson has gone? Fegaxeyl 19:04, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to put up a gallery of the various party leaders and I couldn't really do that with John Robson as he doesn't exist. Having said that Albert Maxwell of the Veterans' Party doesn't exist either but in his case I decided to use a picture of American actor John Amos who seems to project the necessary degree of gravitas in whatever role he plays Verence71 19:08, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

Possible attack on the TBA base at Rutland water
Once the Cleveish troops have finished with the Lincolnshire assimilation project, which should be mid August, I was wondering if any other OBN nations would be interested in joining an attack on the Rutland water base of the TBA to get rid of them finally. I can send maybe 1500 troops from Cleveland and another 500 from Northumbria.--Smoggy80 12:04, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Woodbridge will probably be able to chip in, maybe with some special forces and medics Verence71 13:20, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Essex would be chomping at the bit to have a go with this. The nation is still up for revenge, and besides, the new HM will love the chance to show his no-nonsense, tough-as-nails foreign policy. And the fact that he doesn't want his incumbency marred by the TBA. How many troops do you want? 1,000? 2,000? 3,000? And airships, it can throw in at least one of those. All three, if you want. Fegaxeyl 15:25, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Fegaxeyl, a couple of thousand Essex troops would be appreciated, a couple of trips over in a airship as recon would be useful before the attack. As would a couple of bombing runs during the attacks.

Verence can you spare maybe 50-75 special forces? and as many medics as possible would also be very useful.

I was thinking of making the TBA troops to number around 2500 (ish) on the penninsula and another 750 in the village of Oakham, is that ok with you guys or do you think this total needs to be bigger or smaller?

Ok, so I was thinking of a start date of August 22nd, with airship recon on the 20th. Cleveish and Northumbrian troops attacking from the north west and attacking the town of Oakham, while Essex and Woodbridge troops take the town of Edith Weston including the former Rutland sailing club on the south bank of the lake.

I'm hoping that the Essex and Woodbridge troops will take these in one day while the town of Oakham will take two days.

On the 23rd can Essex do a couple of bombing runs across the penisular, doesn't have to be directed, maybe small anti-personnel devices. The majority of the TBA should be focused on the village of Hambleton.

On the 24th August a joint attack will take place, Woodbridge special forces going in before dawn to do some guerilla tactics on any surviving military equipment they can find.

At daybreak of the 24th Cleveish and Northumbrian troops will attack the causeway going towards the village of Hambleton, at the same time Woodbridge and Essex troops attack the far east of the peninsula and then work their way west to attack the otherside of Hambleton.

Fighting on the peninsula will probably last 2-3 days at the most, with the entire TBA either killed or taken prisoner, Essex and Woodbridge can divided the prisoners as they have caused you guys the most damage in the past.

What do you think? i was wondering if Newolland may send some troops too, if Mumby gets in touch then they'll join with the Cleveish and Northumbrian troops.

--Smoggy80 18:54, July 5, 2011 (UTC)

Woodbridge could spare 50 special forces guys and a company (100 men) of medics, is that okay?? Verence71 19:06, July 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah thats fine--Smoggy80 16:31, July 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'm adding another 100 Newollander Royal Guardsmen to the attack, they will attack with Cleveish and Northumbrian troops--Smoggy80 12:37, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

I've started the page The Great Rutland War (1983: Doomsday) all info for the upcoming battle will be on there from the beginning of August.--Smoggy80 12:48, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

The war is all over, it's in full on the War page --Smoggy80 19:45, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

Altering Template
Is there anyway to update this template so in can be shown that Cleveland and Northumbria are now members fo the OBN?? Verence71 13:20, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yup, just go to the template page. That's how it used to work, at least. Fegaxeyl 15:25, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

End of the Lincolnshire Assimilation Project
Just to let you know that the LAP is offically over, during it the Cleveish troops found the Democratic Republic of Lindsey this is in an area currently claimed by Newolland, so they could become part of Newolland or stay indepedant.--Smoggy80 11:25, July 10, 2011 (UTC)

Newolland Military assitance zone (NMAZ)
With the TBA no more (with the possiblity of some small factions surviving) Newolland would like to asked if it can include the newly TBA free areas (in the former county of Rutland) into the already existing Newolland Military Administration Zone (NMAZ) as well as Northern Cambridgeshire. (Districts of Fenland, the northern part of Huntingdonshire and the area around the nuked city of Peterborough), and Northern Northamptonshire (Districts of Kettering, East Northamptonshire and the area around the TBA captial of Corby)

This will be the extent of the area that Newolland would like to claim and it will not expand anymore. --Smoggy80 11:17, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

Where should Essex go?
Looking at the maps, it's clear Essex is in one of the less fortunate positions in Britain. It's separated from its new colonies by the Thames Estuary, and can't expand any further south. It can't go north, either, without obstructing Woodbridge. And any expansion to the west would run into trouble with Southern England and the Celts; any travel to this area would have to pass around London in an uneconomical fashion. As it'll take something in the order of a century for London to become safe to inhabit, it's clear that expanding west would have its limitations too. So where to go?

The only real way I can think of Essex expanding is eastward - to the European coast. From its current position it could pretty easily claim Flanders and Pas-de-calais. However, beyond food shipments I can't see exactly what this would bring to Essex, especially as it would have to make huge investment (though this could be tempered by the creation of more chartered companies). The two things the region seems particularly strong in are coal mining, and vintages.

However, to claim these, and anything else the region can offer, Essex would have to deal with Lille-et-Terres-Flamande, which holds the most valuable regions of Calais and Flanders.And since it's unlikely they would accept Essaxon chartered companies walking all over them, the only real alternative is conquest. Which would be a huge burden in the short run for extremely risky returns.

Would it be worth it, for Essex? Are there any other alternatives for its future expansion? Fegaxeyl 20:56, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

You're between a rock an a hard place, I'm afraid. Conquest is not an option, either - politically impossible, and Lille is just as strong as Essex. Nor could Essex possibly get the ability to launch such an attack anytime soon. Land invasions are one thing - sea and air another entirely.

Got me as to where it could expand. Have to go around London, I'd think.

Lordganon 08:44, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Rather than going across the channel, much of the area in the old West Midlands is currently unclaimed and counties in that area didn't take much radiation, places like Shropshire, Herefordshire ETC would be ripe for Essex colonisation. That could happen from sailing round the south coast and up the River Severn or River Wye valleys. The only problem would be how much of the area the Celts claim? however I think the OBN might back Essex over the Celtic claims in the area.--Smoggy80 11:16, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Would Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire be "available" as well?? Verence71 11:25, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

I would think so, in Oxfordshire, Oxford took a 100KT bomb, Buckinghamshire didn't take anything major--Smoggy80 11:30, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

There is also some debate on how much territory the Celts have in the area so possible Wiltshire and Gloscestershire also--Smoggy80 11:33, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

So, you guys suggest that Essex should 'make a break' for the West Midlands, so to speak? Well, I imagine it would be possible... extremely difficult from a logistical point of view, of course. Perhaps if it were to try and use the Thames as a backbone for expansion, with colonies, forts and chartered companies trading and up and down the river, eventually shuttled by train to Hertfordshire and Essex itself... doable? Fegaxeyl 13:00, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

I can imagine it would be easier to take than to take land on the other side of the channel, particularly as that area is already claimed. The Thames will take you up to Oxfordshire (although the section through Oxford itself may be impassable due to the Nuke) and then use land transport from there onwards. So start in Berkshire or Buckinghamshire and then move into Oxfordshire and keep going from there

Or you could work your way through the remaining unclaimed parts of Hertfordshire into Buckinghamshire, then on to Berkshire and Oxfordshire--Smoggy80 13:17, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

If you do start in Berkshire, Windsor Castle is in that area, you couldn't ask for a better starting base!--Smoggy80 13:22, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

So long as you don't try to colonize areas north of Bristol by sea, yes. That has the same issues as an attack on the mainland. Essex is a land power on an island - not much you can do about that, I'm afraid.

Go around the northern edge of the city of London, bypassing much of the Thames, until the bend south of High Wycombe and north of Maidenhead, around Bourne End. Just go west along the river from there, to avoid Reading. Continue upriver as possible from there, as well as going up tributaries. Would give a band of territory from Essex to around Gloucester.

Lordganon 13:59, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Future of unicorporated territories
I've left a message on Tessitores page about how we're effectivly deciding where our nations are going to expand into, but as Tess has dropped off the map i'm going to have to take a guess as where Lancaster is going to expand to.

I would say eastern Cheshire (away from the Celtic lands), Shropshire and Staffordshire, including Gt Manchester area, even tho it was nuked. The WFA is also going to join Lancaster eventually, prob by the end of 2012.

I've already said where Newolland would like to expand into on the article page, Cleveland doesn't want to get any bigger, Northumbria is bordered all around by other nations (in fact if Southern Scotland is successful then it may give territory gained after the Ur Alba war back to Southern Scotland) --Smoggy80 16:15, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'm back. Sorry for dropping off the map but I got distracted and the next thing I knew a couple of months had gone past. I've been eying up Cheshire for a while now, but I thought that the CA had called dibs on all of it. Glad to hear that that's not the case. I've also been considering what to do with Staffordshire and Shropshire. Guess I'm going to have to pick up the pace. Oh, and for the record, Lancaster already has the Greater Manchester area, they just haven't done much with it since it's so heavily contaminated.Tessitore 23:10, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Cheshire, since Smoggy has informed me that things are fairly flexible regarding how much territory the CA controls, I'd like to call dibs on everything east of the A49, especially the towns of Middlewitch, Warmingham and Winsford. There's some big salt mines and/or salt works there which Lancaster would find very useful indeed. I'm still working on Staffordshire and Shropshire, speaking of which, does anyone know what kinds of resources they have?Tessitore 23:58, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

Eastern Cheshire
Just thought I'd like you know that I'm going to be making a retroctive claim on the eastern part of Cheshire since having all this expansion occurring at the same time seems rather odd. Tessitore 21:11, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've added Lancaster's acquisition of east Cheshire to the History of Lancaster page. There's a few things I'm a bit unsure about so any imput would be appreciated.Tessitore 15:48, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Taking an actual look at this, I have to say that it does not seem plausible at all - land access to the area from Lancashire would be through CA territory. And, at least Wexford is, going by the UK maps, inside Celtic territory - if not, is is literally right outside, and in that case it being not under their control if survivors remain makes no sense at all. The other named places are in the same boat. So I have to say that the idea, while good in theory, is not possible.

I fully realize that you want to expand, Tess, but you guys have to remember that all of the English states will come to a point where they cannot do so any longer. Tess, I believe for Lancaster, that time is now. Sorry.

Lordganon 18:41, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

I've already thought about access between Lancaster and Cheshire. The Greater Manchester area belongs to Lancaster, if only because no one else wanted it, and there's a lot of railway tracks to the east that, with a bit of adjusting, would avoid the most heavily contaminated areas. If Cleveland can have a railway line through a contaminated area, so can Lancaster. In fact, upon further consideration and after some faffing about with Ground Zero II, there should also be a 'corridor' between Celtic territory and the more heavily contaminated areas to the west of Manchester as well, given that last time I checked a lot of the land north of the Mersey didn't really belong to anyone due to being too contaminted for habitation. Tessitore 20:47, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Belongs in the legal sense, sure - but it reality, it's a radiated wasteland. But you're talking about an area that was hit by multiple strikes and is still heavily irradiated. It's nothing like in Cleveland, where it's only still minor radiation involved that a simple train car shields against. Her solution will not work here. Note, too, that that the simulator only shows the impacts and the first 12 hours of fallout. At most, you're talking about a tiny corridor to the west, which given all things, is Celtic territory in all but name. And I sincerely doubt that they would allow rail access through it, and the same goes for the merchant doing what you have too.

And that misses the point entirely that I was making - which is that the area is already in CA territory, or uninhabited.

Lordganon 23:08, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

I do not wish to be awkward but I've been getting two different sets of advice regarding this issue, plus I put a fair bit of effort in so I want to give this thing another go, at least until I get a 'tie-breaker' on the feedback front. On that note, I've been having a chat with Smoggy regarding Lancastrian-Cleveish border agreements on our talk pages and she's suggested that Lancaster could have all of the Peak District and therefore it have a route to the east of the irradiated Gt Manchester to more southern counties (see the talk pages for more detail). I'm currently double checking the potential transport links and I'll probably have to edit the scenario but there might be potential there.Tessitore 20:11, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've been watching.

That does eliminate, somewhat, access issues. However, the overall problem remains.

The areas you have listed here, as stated, are either in Celtic Territory, or uninhabited. Uninhabited would be the case in this Peak District, too.

But the extent of the expansion that has been proposed to you is too far. Much too far. The radiation, etc. in that area may have dropped, but it still is in the rough middle of three major blasts. And a wilderness area, to boot. Not only that, but expansion like that will get the Celts to move in response, blocking you.

To go as far as the road Google Maps calls "Snake Road" - runs between Sheffield and Glossop - would probably be reasonable. But Buxton, Macclesfield, and Chesterfield? No way.

By my best guess, the Celts are already that far east. Their borders in the area, impossibly, have not moved an inch on the map, which is not possible. You guys have to remember that Celtic interests are not in your favor, and cannot be bent as such.

Lordganon 22:17, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing on the Celtic page that says how far east Celtic rule extends, as far as the article goes is to say in that area they control Merseyside, West Cheshire and Northern Wales, it mentions nothing about the eastern part of Cheshire, never mind Derbyshire to the east of Cheshire, or the fact that I was giving Tessitore the some of the West of South Yorkshire.

Anyway I think Tessitore is only going to use the area to traverse through to the safer southern counties, no-one need live there? if there is large amounts of radioactive fallout (which is doubtful due to the distance to nuked cities and the time since DD) then its not really a problem.

And why not Chesterfield? its near (as in less than 5 miles) from the city state of Matlock? and that page hasn't got much on it about radiation problems? and Buxton and Macclesfield are both over 15-20 miles from any large nuked city (either Manchester, Stoke and Sheffield), in fact Buxton would be far more likely that others in the area to survive as it has a uncontaminated water supply and miles from any nuke.

I think we need to talk to the editor of the Celtic Alliance and FINALLY finalise exactly where the borders of the CA are in the former UK, so that other OBN editors (which Tessitore is not the only one) who want to expand into central England know where is already claimed (or not as the case maybe)

--Smoggy80 17:20, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Smoggy, read that again. In no way did I say anything about Chesterfield or Buxton and radiation - I merely said that expanding that far is not very plausible. We're talking about radiation in the "Peak District." Have a look at the map. The northern parts of that area are indeed exactly what I describe. While it would indeed have dropped to safe levels, almost the entire population would have died.

Nor did I quibble about you giving him anything, but where he would go past that. And that the areas he first proposed were in Celtic territory. This new one, in my opinion, should be as well, but does not seem to quite be at this time. But, if he moves into that area, the Celts can and will move in response, blocking them.

As for the editor, you're pretty much stuck with me, unless you can get Arstar's attention.

Overall, I say again: Celtic and OBN interests are not the same. You guys need to remember that, and quit trying to bend one to match the other.

Lordganon 19:57, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Truth be told, the only reason I was interested in Cheshire is the salt mines. All I really cared about was the mines and a means of getting from the main part of Lancaster to the area with the mines. Given that, as has already been pointed out, Lancaster can't expand much further, I had the idea of capitalising on Lancaster's biggest asset, it's relatively large number of ports, and go down the 'small but well off' route by having them flog stuff to other countries. Salt happens to be a very valuble resource, both in itself and as part of the manufacturing processes for a number of products. But since you've made a good case for why my plan won't work, I suppose that I'll have to come up with a Plan B. *sigh*Tessitore 02:14, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Might be a plan to remove that section then. And, too, to ask us for advice first next time, lol. Lordganon 03:50, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance borders
After the message left by Fegaxeyl at 20:39, on the April 12, 2011 (UTC) Arstar responded:

''Ah! I am sorry I've taken so long to respond.''

''I don't have much time, but I am agreeing to hand over editing responsibilities to you and whoever else wishes to pilot the article for the time being, although I should be back by July 2nd. Arstar 02:37, May 21, 2011 (UTC)'' So, as Arstar has handed over editing of the CA to the OBN editors (or Fegaxeyl at least), and since returning has not asked for it back, I was hoping that we could agree on the CA borders in England and Wales (Scotland and former France have official borders) so I can update the map.

The CA page states in England - Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Glostershire, North Dorset, West and North Wiltshire, Merseyside and West Cheshire are in CA hands - does everyone agree with this or does the border want moving so that the CA has more or less land?

In Wales it states that Powys, Pembrokeshire, Gwyneed, Anglesey, Conway, Ceredigion, Denbighshire are CA territory - same as above, does everyone agree/disagree?

Personnaly I think that Flintshire should be included in the CA as it links CA controlled Merseyside and CA controlled Wales together and i'm debating wether Powys would be part of the CA as the article states coastal Wales and Powys can't really be described as Coastal and it has never appeared on the CA map previously.

Also would Wales have reverted to pre-1974 counties? in which case Powys becomes Montgomeryshire, Radnorshire, and Breckonshire.

Or does anyone think we should ask Arstar again, just in case he's changed his mind?

--Smoggy80 18:37, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

You're misinterpreting Arstar, there. He's allowed you guys to edit it as you see fit, but retained the role of caretaker for himself.... which given what he's said, means you need to talk to me a bit if he's not around, lol. Not that I think you guys should be in charge of the CA, at all, given the competing interests of your own nations.

You'll note that I added to each of the territorial sections on the CA article "...and small areas of neighboring counties" as well.

Flintshire is included in the CA on all maps, and really, has been for a very long time.

As has been the case with Powys, by and large, though even your map of the CA - and rightly so - did not include all of it.

Don't forget about the Celtic Base in the western areas in/around London, too, as well as the fact that they influence an area far larger than they actually outright control.

And that the CA would also control parts of southeastern Wales and more territory in the Liverpool region.

Lordganon 19:10, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance
Arstars been in touch with me and it appears that he wants to hand over control of the Celtic Alliance page to me, however LG seems to have a problem with it. So i've put it to Arstar that the OBN editors would run the CA page by committee, so that any major changes to the article would have to put to a vote before it can be changed, that way not one editor can run the CA to their advantage.

does everyone agree?

i'll wait till the end of the month for any comments and then i'll get in touch with Arstar with the result.

--Smoggy80 17:18, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. You, as the Anti-Catherine, are the best choice for caretaker of the article. We wouldn't want LG to get another article to extend his ironfisted rule over, now would we? ;)

Yank 17:29, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Don't care if that comment was in jest or not, Yank, but you need to quit making them.

I object wholesale to this concept. That does nothing to solve that problem.

As I said to Arstar: he either needs to keep it, or to pass it off to an editor that is not from the area.

Lordganon 19:37, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

I can understand the 'threat' of purely British editors controlling the British part of the timeline. But then there's the advantageous side of 'hometown syndrome': it will ensure it gets the necessary attention paid to it. And I doubt we'll be trying to run in a completely unrealistic direction, because input can still be made from community members who are interested readers but not interested in editing (as I imagine most would be). I make a conscious effort to make the timeline appear bleak and depressing, as it should. Surely just some active consideration of that will offset any bias? After all, there's never been any necessity to get other editors involved in US nations. I agree with Smoggy. Fegaxeyl 22:04, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Almost every time since you guys were allowed to edit the thing you guys have been seeking to lessen and ignore the article in favor of your own nations. Heck, look at this page for some of it.

You cannot compare this to in the US. In the British Isles, you have two opposing forces: the CA, and the rest (mostly, the OBN) And by any rights, the CA is far, far, stronger. By simple virtue of that, it will dominate the islands. Yet, you guys have ignored that in the majority of discussions about it.

As I said, nothing in her proposal solves anything.

Lordganon 05:25, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the fact that the CA and OBN are at loggerheads to one another; and that the CA is stronger. I agree we may have ignored that to some extent but we haven't actively written anything against it. And, of course, the OBN is formed to show solidarity against the CA, so naturally their decisions are made to be in blatant disregard of the Celts!

The point is, though, that beyond our 'own' nations, we have the interest of realism of the entirety of Britain at our hearts, and therefore will be more prepared to give time to group discussion about the CA, its actions and their consequences, than an editor from somewhere else might. That's not to say that only we can do the job right. But it's saying that we, more than others, will have the time, effort, and existing friendship to cooperate well. I think on that point friendship is important since it will allow us to more readily swallow the CA's strength against our nations. Fegaxeyl 08:06, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

True, nothing has been written in the article yet, but in nearly every discussion you guys have been going on like that. And, the map ignores a fair chunk of their territory and doesn't expand their holdings like the OBN states do - or, recognize their influenced regions, either. Has always been so. The actions of the OBN states is not relevant - the views expressed by their editors on here, and elsewhere, is, however. Note that I do not mean anything insulting by this, but if you read over things it is a common event.

You're missing what I'm saying. I think that you are incorrect in saying most of that second paragraph - some of it is actually quite.... rude? And that it also shows my point - that is, that you guys will never have it actually be what it is, and instead what you want.

Its interests are directly opposite of the OBN states in many cases - yet, in most discussions you guys have, this is ignored, to the benefit of the OBN states.

Note, that I do agree that you guys are the best local knowledge, and for that reason should always be able to edit it. But, that is also exactly why actual control is the absolute last thing that should be granted.

Lordganon 09:23, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I personally feel the reason the Celtic Alliance hasn't expanded in years is because it's gone between several caretakers, and that we (British editors) weren't fully clear that it was ours. Nonetheless it has expanded and Smoggy has made edits to do with representation. Granted we haven't paid it full attention but I don't believe we have done anything relating to the CA that is unrealistic. There is, of course, plenty of time for retconning and if we local editors, who are the most aware of the region's past, are deeply involved in or in control of that process, then a more realistic result will occur.

I must admit that I can't speak for all us British editors since I'm dimly aware of discussions relating to Lancaster and the Celtic Alliance, which I believe attracted some attention. Nonetheless an atmosphere of recognising our limits - which I believe is reasonably common amongst us British editors - exists and, as said, can be applied to retcon changes as necessary.

I'm interested as to how local knowledge can be construed a bad thing. Could you give an example of where it has interferred with creating a realistic timeline? As I mentioned there is 'hometown syndrome' but again a conscious effort to instill a dystopian attitude is perfectly fine when coupled with local knowledge.

I apologise if my earlier comments can be seen is rude. I didn't mean to them to insult at all and didn't feel them to be so as I wrote them but if that's the case, then I'm sorry. Fegaxeyl 16:07, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I feel that surely we aren't local. We need Irish people to control the Celtic Alliance pages surely? And the reason I haven't updated the map for the Celtic Alliance because it was never made clear to me if or where the Alliance expanded. What I think is that the primary issues should be what was radioactove immediatly after DD and what is radioactive now? My last tuppence is surely if Arstar wants to hand over to us, there should not a veto from on high. Mumby 16:36, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

very little has been written on the CA page about expansion of territory, the only time its been added was when I added territory after the Ur Alba war and in Northern France, personnally I do think that the CA would've expanded into south west of former England and control the majority of Wales (and possibly Shropshire and some of the surrounding counties).

As for the OBN nations taking over, I think this was obviously going to happen sooner or later due Arstars absence from editing the CA page for so long, as LG says it is the most powerful nation in the former UK and it should be edited more frequently.

Also I can't see how LG can stop Arstar handing it over, after all its not like the OBN editors have stong armed him into it. He's handing it over freely and its not like we're going to make the CA dissappear or anything. The OBN editors all have a history of writing nation articles that make rational sense and all conform to canonical rules (and other rules) so why would there be a problem?

--Smoggy80 17:44, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know this was going to become such a problem. While I am back in full swing in terms of editing I realized that with 50-something proposals under my wing that I was leaving many of the key nations inactive while I payed attention to other articles. I am a writer or caretaker or co-writer of many key nations, such as the South American Confederation, Taiwan, Spain, much of Italy, a chunk of the ANZC, North Germany, the Celtic Alliance, and Superior. And those are the big ones.

My idea was to half the amount of nations I write for and hand them over to those who would know them better than me. Honestly I've been to the British Isles twice and that was to Edinburg which was nuked in the ATL so obviously I am not an expert on the area. Smoggy who is one of the more level headed members would be able to keep it active in the ATL. Before you say that the OBN authors cannot keep their better interests out of changing what they please, Lg and Oer, remember that the three of us wrote for both sides of the Saguenay War Rewrite so it would be hypocritical to say they would be biased.

I have my full faith in Smoggy and she can decline if she pleases. I will not fully withdraw but I will still minorly contribute to keep harmony if needed. I have respect for LG but what Yank said above about Lg's rule is an exxagerated truth at worst. While I don't think you rule with an iron fist as quoted you tend to debate until they give up as with GB. Remember LG that I was the one who got you elected to the TSPTF. Also remember that this is a community project and if one caretaker wishes to hand over primary control it is not something that needs to be disputed so long as it is a legitimate transfer.

With that I say that I would prefer if Smoggy assisted in care taking but should it become a major issue I will abort mission and take are of it myself. Have a nice day everyone. Arstar 22:31, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

...It's amazing how my point continues to be lost, here.

Each discussion about the Alliance on this page, among others, has you guys going on about "retconning" it - which, by and large, is against the rules anyway. That is exactly why I'm objecting. Because I feel that your hometown syndrome, along with your own creations being the states most directly opposed to the Alliance, means that the state will get screwed over in favor of the OBN nations nearly every time. Yet, that is entirely unrealistic. You've not done anything "unrealistic" yet, true enough. But your discussions, in my opinion, mean that this will happen. The backflowed Lancaster expansion, for an example.

It's not a question of it being edited more frequently. Heck, you guys have had the permission to do edits - though not control - for months, and only smoggy has done anything. Don't blame Arstar or anyone else for that one. Nor does it help your cause.

Arstar, read the discussions here and elsewhere before you talk about their interests.

As said, however, I am in favor of the OBN editors doing most of the editing for the page. But not control, at all.

Arstar should either keep the article under his control, allowing the OBN editors to edit it as is currently the case, or give it to the community and let changes to it be done by community consensus, as Oer proposed on Arstar's talk page. I prefer the second option.

Lordganon 10:35, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

My nation of Newolland may well be anti-Celtic, but that fits with their parochial attitude and backwardness. They fear the Alliance's disproportionate power in the Isles. Ultimately, I believe that all of the British Isles will fall under Celtic control in some form, but more as a 'United States of Avalon' (strictly a provisional name to try and cover the whole of the British Isles). Mumby 17:53, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

If i'd have known it was going to cause this much hassle I would have left this as it was!

If Arstars ok with it, we can leave it as it is, with Arstar as 'official' main editor and I can be a kind of deputy editor (or babysitter if you prefer as LG is with my DD Egypt page), any major changes I will check with Arstar (and LG, if he wants) before anything is changed on the CA page and also check with the OBN editors for boundaries, any claimed land in unclaimed central England etc.

Also to put to rest any rumours the CA will not loose any territory, in fact it will gain some territory in SW England and Wales.

is everyone ok with that? --Smoggy80 18:05, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

No, no, let's not get argued into a corner as so often happens.

Separating control and 'majority editors' is baseless. I don't understand what the point is of the differentiation, since naturally if we don't have control we'll have no motivation to edit. We'd basically be subordinates. And putting it up to community control is a bad idea; it will just massively slow down anything.

Furthermore, I don't understand the issue with retconning. If anything it is a good idea, and I've always wondered why we're so against it. Lots of good and plausible ideas throughout the timeline have been squashed because of the fact they collide with another article but what's to stop us going back and rewriting it? Ultimately that would make the entire timeline richer, with more chronology, more stories, and more plausibility.

As for permission to do editing, as I believe I said before, we haven't been clear on the fact we had permission.

As for bias - well, we're all mature editors. We recognise the fact that this timeline's world is crap. We may not have explicitly written as such but there's the QAA. Mumby just demonstrated that. We'd know that we can't make our little upstarts super-powerful, crushing the CA. I feel patronised saying this, but - we can be trusted to behave like adults! Fegaxeyl 18:38, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

The idea that the Celts will one day rule the entirety of the Isles is a touch... silly?

Retconning is against all of the rules of the timeline, and, indeed, the wiki. And it's like that for a good reason. And given the discussions that have taken place with the CA, I've no doubt that if control was handed over it would be attempted.

Community control - as in major changes must be discussed with the community. As in, not having such things just happen.

It has been made perfectly clear several times now that you guys have had permission to do edits for months. Any lack of clarity falls on your own doorsteps.

For how often Mumby comments on things, I don't really see why you're bringing him up, his comment aside. And, as I've said already: by and large, you guys have a track record that runs counter to what you are saying, Feg. Nor should anyone hold the articles for nations on both sides of such a matter, if it can be avoided at all.

Arstar holding final control, with smoggy holding some is good. Really, Smog's edits have been good, though some of her posts on the talk pages really haven't helped your cause here at all. Boundaries are also something that needs to be discussed with someone outside of the OBN. Heck, that aspect is where most of my problem with the thought of you guys getting control lies.

Lordganon 11:39, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

But these aren't major changes. They take place in an isolated part of the world that has very little bearing on anywhere else.

Track record? I believe our work is no more flawed than anyone else's here, and we are a set of very good and realistic editors with excellent knowledge and a recognition of the timeline.

Arstar himself admitted he had many other major articles to work on; Smoggy has additional work too. Verence, Mumby and I aren't so committed and can contribute to the timeline. All of us are grounded in reality, or so I would hope, and definitely mature enough to consider the timeline as a whole rather than any one individual nation. We will be good editors and we will consider the future of the timeline reasonably, intelligently and realistically.

LG, I have to say it. I'm deeply insulted that you can't trust us. Fegaxeyl 18:19, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I can't see the CA taking over the whole of the former UK, or even all the uncontrolled territory in the former UK. The CA only started exploring the mainland of the UK in the 1990's (Liverpool in 1995, Cleveland and Wales in 1997 and Southern England in 1998 and New London after that), so by now the CA contolling the whole of South West England, all of Wales and Shropshire and Hertfordshire would be likely, we would have to decide where New London is, I'm guessing it is located west or north west of Old London? mainly due to where the radiation from the nukes would've blown east.--Smoggy80 19:19, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Major Changes in the islands. As I've said repeatedly.

I have not once said anything about your articles. Where my problem lies is the opinions stated by you guys in discussions. How many times do I have to say that, Feg? Sheesh.

Don't know where you're getting those dates from, Smog - the CA started exploring well into the 1980s. The Liverpool date is far later than it occurred, and that history page is definitely not in order, as it would be nonsensical for that to actually be it.

New London and its environs, in the west of the city, no doubt.

Lordganon 10:42, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Latest Map
Is this accurate?



And hows this?



Seems about right to me Verence71 20:23, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

...Except that it ignored New London, again. And no mention of Celtic-influenced areas, either, though that part is a kettle of fish to be discussed later on, as even I've no idea exactly what areas lie in that.

A touch more like this.....



Lordganon 10:47, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

The LG map is good as it shows county boundries like I said a big chunk of SW England and all of Wales would be probably Celtic by now, so say the counties of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Wiltshire, Glostershire, Somerset and Avon, Herefordshire, Shropshire, Oxfordshire, Worchestershire and probably the western halfs of Hampshire (with a border with Southern England, depending on fallout areas from Southampton), Warwickshire and Berkshire, southern and western parts of Staffordshire, as well as all of Wales.

New London would be probably be in Oxfordshire or Berkshire as its unlikely it would be in the Greater London area, mainly due to the fact of not really enough land for farming to hold such a large population, but also possible residual radiation (as we don't know where the nukes actual fell, might be a good idea to decide where they detonated)



so something like this with light green being land Celtic land now

And i'm taking the dates from History of the Celtic Alliance (1983: Doomsday) page. it appears to be arranged in date order?, the section on Southern England will have to be ammended to including nations of Southern England, Essex and Woodbridge and Celtic interactions with those areas.--Smoggy80 12:44, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

If the Eastern edges of London are intact for Essex, then the same is true of the western edges for the CA base.

Have a look at earlier in that article, Smog. The western areas are in contact with the CA well before the 1990s - they formally take over Liverpool in the timeframe you mention, but they are active there well before that.

The Wales section, given what it says earlier in the history, must be assumed to be out of place. Simply put, it's not possible for them to do such things without being in Wales in the 1980s at least on some level. At a minimum, the islands of the Welsh coast would have joined the CA, or at least be aligned with them, before or around the time Glasgow joins in late 1980s. The rest follows.

Lordganon 10:46, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Added more or less Smog's zone to my version, with a section extending to New London as well. Lordganon 11:45, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ok so in addition to my list of CA controled counties above, all of Berkshire (not just western end) and southern Buckinghamshire, we need to decide where the border with Southern England in Hampshire is--Smoggy80 11:58, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

New London, does Uxbridge/Slough area sound ok? might be a bit close to Heathrow airport which i'm guessing will have been nuked (with it being the largest civillian airport in the country at the time) but does have a good water supply and access to open spaces for farming or alternatly Windsor castle is nearby, along with Eton College--Smoggy80 12:18, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the Southern English border, I had not envisioned the Southern English controlling anything in Hampshire except perhaps districts 5,6 and 7 in the east. The southern area that the map shows it controling had in my mind mostly been avoided due to the bombing of PortsmouthVegas adict 13:05, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing you've been using this map, looking at it i can imagine the southern part of 3 and 5 is pretty radioactive



with 12 being Southampton and 13 being Portsmouth (both hit with 150KT bombs plus another 1 or 2 200KT bombs) so irradiated and also 10, 1, 2, and 4 will be uninhabitable.

so if the CA controls 11, 9 and 8 and the northern part of 3, it'll have a border between the CA and Southern England just east of Basingstoke. sound ok to you Vegas? --Smoggy80 13:14, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, That sounds fine to meVegas adict 13:22, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

So using a very roughly made map



Orange radioactive - uninhabited, Blue - southern England, Yellow - CA

--Smoggy80 13:32, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

We should mark on what is radioactive on the map, so we know what is possible and what isn't. Any map from a world which has suffered nuclear war would have that. I like LGs map, but I have never been sure of New London. Mumby 13:50, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

That's more or less where the spot on my map is for NL, Smog, lol

Logically, outside of areas that still remain radioactive today, Southern England is going to control Southern Hampshire, in an arc around Portsmouth - for them to not control the coast right next to their capital and center of power would be a touch.... sketchy. While the area may entirely have once been radiated, that is not going to be the case now. Radiation from fallout would be more or less gone.

How could they control that part of Hampshire, in the northeast? They've never had any borders anywhere near there. That area of the Celtic control/influence, as well, is slightly toned down on my map in that area, compared to Smog's, too.

Too many little strikes in Britain to make an addition of them to a map like this all that feasible, in my mind.

Lordganon 14:40, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think I may as well flag it up here if we're going to be considering New London, I made this tentative map of Essex's final borders, at which point I doubt any more expansion is possible. As you can see it's currently on top of where New London was mentioned. So that leads to the following options: ​I just thought I'd bring it up for discussion and any future mapmaking. Fegaxeyl 18:23, January 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * New London is somewhere else, or
 * Essex absorbs New London, or
 * You make me redo this map which took me hours!

Redo it. Not like it'd be a big edit, anyways.

If it helps any, you're still got room for expansion north of the city, even past what your map there shows. You could easily add more there.

But, too, though, that map of yours is for the future.

Lordganon 10:46, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

So can we agree that New London will be based in Windsor? it seems the most logical place, easy to defend (what with the Castle and all), water source, land for farming surrounding, woodland for fuel etc. Once thats agreed then we need to decide its structure, future etc.

It would make sense for Southern England to get all of Hampshire and make the border between them and the CA the old Hampshire border.

sound ok? --Smoggy80 16:44, January 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * looks thoughtfully at Lordganon's map, specifically the unclaimed area east of the CA and south of Lancaster* *sighs* If only you weren't radioactive.Tessitore 22:25, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Bet on Slough instead of Windsor. Windsor would be where looters aimed for, and devastated because of it. Slough would be contaminated for the first couple years from radiation, so it would be in much better shape. Though Windsor would definitely be under their control.

All of Hampshire would be unlikely. The northwestern portions are are closer to the CA, and likely would end up with them.

Tess, I've little doubt it would go to Lancaster.

Lordganon 02:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Slough is an absolutely massive industrial park. I was expecting the Soviets to drop a nuke simply to destroy Slough alone, seeing the massive concentration of services and industry there. Fegaxeyl 07:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just thought, what about OBN influence, as a whole. There is a precedent for the OBN to work together to recover areas, for example the Lincolnshire Assimilation project and the Codominions.Mumby 14:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I should prob point out that I have no plans to extend Cleveland, Northumbria, Newolland and Southern Scotland beyond what they have already claimed.

Therefore the unclaimed area from Buckinghamshire northwards can be divided between Lancaster and the CA, the only major nuked areas will be around Manchester and Birmingham.

--Smoggy80 16:50, January 17, 2012 (UTC)



Ok roughly done this map, Southern England (Vegas) is that ok for full extent?, Essex (Fegaxeyl)- i've done to the borders with the CA in London and border with Southern England, it still leaves room to expand to the north (Bedfordshire, southern Northamptonshire etc) however you'll have to decide between yourself and Woodbridge (Verence) who gets what as Southern Cambridgeshire is already earmarked for Woodbridge. LG it that ok for extent of CA?

--Smoggy80 17:18, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

About setting up in Slough or Windsor, in my mind both these areas are flooded to some extent, since the local reserviors may have overflowed or breached or... whatever... since Doomsday. I've been running on the assumption that central London is flooded from the destruction of embankments and the slowing of the river as it passes through the ruins - and I've made small adjustments on the map I produced to represent this. Would this be something to bear in mind? Fegaxeyl 19:12, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Smog, if you're going to make alternate versions of my map, please remove "LG" from the name.

The lighter green is the areas that their camps are set up in, as per what the article says. In all likelihood, they will go further inland.

The problem overall, mind, is that Essex and Southern England are not that size. In the future, maybe. But not right now. Same goes for Woodbridge in the northeast. Basically, it's good to know the future extent, but it's not something to put on a current map.

Not really, Feg. We can't predict at all where/how bad flooding would be, exactly. Assume it exists, but not exactly where. Something to remember, but not worry about all that much. As you say, Central London would no doubt have suffered flooding, but we really can't know exactly where. After all, these things are designed for heavy flooding and to last a long time with maintenence. They aren't going to collapse overnight, even with nuclear damage. Heck, the nukes may even have made the river bottom deeper, helping prevent flooding, for all we know.

Smog, it's kinda illogical that Newolland and Cleveland wouldn't expand at least a little further. The CA will have Lancaster blocked off from expanding soon, so them not doing expanding into the gap is basically giving it to the CA.

Slough is not recorded as a hit, and judging from what I read, it's not the kind of industry that would be targeted.

Lordganon 02:40, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to wait until wikipedia comes back online before I can discuss that particular point in detail! :P Fegaxeyl 07:53, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt Slough would've been hit, the industry there would pose not threat to the USSR (no aircraft or missile building works there), Heathrow definately would've been hit though. As for flooding, if the resevoirs nearby Windsor had overflowed the water would be well and truely gone down the Thames by now, and Windsor is on a hill.

LG sorry about using your map, I just thought we were going to use it from now on. The map I made shows either claimed lands or planned extent, as well as the land they currently control. it was produced just purely so we can decide on future borders etc, thats why I mentioned about the Essex/CA/Woodbridge border--Smoggy80 16:55, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Woodbridge has certainly does intend to expand into the rest of Norfolk at some point in the future. When it does that the name of the nation might well be changed to the Republic of East Anglia or something similar Verence71 23:54, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Redarding the empty area I've got my eye on, after a bit of cross referencing it appears that apart from the Peak District (which Smoggy and I have agreed will go to Lancaster), most of it is taken up by cities that were nuked. So it's all pretty much either radioactive or MAMBA.Tessitore 02:18, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Nono you misinterpreted me, Smog. Use it as you wish, all I ask is that when you upload a new one, that you remove "LG" from the name it is saved under. Lordganon 09:32, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I assume that the little white blob on the Norfolk coast on the latest map is meant to signify Norwich which was the subject of a 100KT blast on Doomsday. However where the blob is situated is actually the coastal town of Great Yarmouth. Norwich itself is about 21 inland from there Verence71 17:05, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Er the little white blob was a bit i forget to colour in, oops. (Oh and for those who dont know what MAMBA stands for it means Miles And Miles of Bugger All) LG i'll remove the LG part of the name tag. sorry again.--Smoggy80 18:08, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh and as for the map how about, area already controlled one colour and area claimed or partially controlled etc a slightly lighter shade of the same colour, like we did with the CA on the map?--Smoggy80 18:31, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

No need to be sorry, Smog.

The CA is really the only state in the Isles that controls more territory than its official boundaries. And the claims overlap, as is usually the case - makes little sense to put them on a map, if it's more than a map with just the one nation on it.

Lordganon 02:14, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Newolland has more territory under its controls than it offical boundries (Rutland, north Cambridgeshire, Eastern Leicestershire adn eastern Northamptonshire) Woodbridge has Northern Norfolk which is under their control (administer) but is not part of Woodbridge proper. As far as i can see there is little to no overlap as neighbouring nations have helped each other to gain territory.

LG I may be incorrectly reading between the lines here but are you saying something like "eveything that isn't fully part of another nation WILL be part of the CA (wether we like it or not!) and parts of the other OBN nations as well"? or am I reading this discussion wrong?

--Smoggy80 12:17, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Strictly speaking Woodbridge doesn't control North Norfolk. We have just place a claim to the area for further expansion at some point in the future. You're confusing NN with that little bit of West Norfolk and bits of East and South Cambridgeshire Verence71 14:14, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

You may want to have another look at that map I made, Smog. All those areas are inside their borders. And Verence has it for Woodbridge.

No, that is not what I'm, saying, Smog. Celtic and OBN claims - and the OBN states with themselves - overlap. What I'm saying is that because of that fact, there's no point in including claims on a map, unless we do a single map for each nation. The Celts will likely get their influenced areas, and a bit further, with the OBN taking the rest.

Lordganon 18:57, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Of course the number of representatives in the CA parliment for SW England will have to be increased from 9, does 14 or 15 sound ok? or do you think there should be more as i'm expecting that the population in SW England despite DD will be larger than for mainland Scotland.--Smoggy80 14:01, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

The map should also show that the western part of currently Clevleish South and West Yorkshire will go to Lancaster,(i'll decide on boundries with Tess).

I would imagine that as Manchester was nuked, keeping Gt Manchester as a county name wouldn't happen so the land would revert back pre 1974 Lancaster, West Yorkshire and Cheshire counties, so what was Lancaster in 1974 will also go to Lancaster and Prob north western Derbyshire (say districts of High Peak and the northern part of Derbyshire dales as well as districts of North East Derbyshire, area around Chesterfield, and Bolsover) with Matlock in the south of the Derbyshire dales that shouldn't be a problem as Matlock doesn't control much territory. The CA would contol all of Cheshire (including the bit that was GT Manchester) and so have a border along the old Cheshire border with Lancaster.--Smoggy80 14:07, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it would be more people in SW England than in mainland Scotland. Northern Scotland would basically have gotten through intact, which is something that we cannot say for SW England, at all.

...Yes, that's more or less where the borders would end up.

Lordganon 14:16, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

SW England has large amounts of extremely fertile farmland (Far more than all of Scotland put together) and so it can support more people, even after you take into account the radioactive fall out over the area--Smoggy80 14:26, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Being home to more potential farmland doesn't mean too much if almost everyone died off.

And, according to data established elsewhere, the CA population in what was once England is around 200k. In mainland Scotland, it's without a doubt going to be higher than that. If anything, the number of Scottish reps there needs to be increased, imo, as it's population will be far above 200k.

Been watching you and Tess, Smog, and I have to say: Lancaster is not going to be able to get to Southern Yorkshire, in all likelihood. It's just too far away, through radioactive lands.

Lordganon 10:12, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, first off, by now the radiation levels would've dropped a fair bit. Secondly, even if they can't do much with the land, there's nothing stopping them from calling dibs and working out who gets what for the sake of tidiness.Tessitore 22:10, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Just out of interest does the town of Uttoxeter in Staffordshire belong to anyone?? I

Verence71 19:58, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tess (and Smog, who obviously saw that post) - calm down.

Aside from a small corridor in Yorkshire, nearly the entire area between SY and Lancaster is either taken by the CA, or the Manchester deathlands. Say that the Cleveish are letting them have it - not that that makes any sense at all, but I digress - all you want, but it's just not very feasible for them to actually get it. Nor does it make any sense.

Looking at maps, Ver, that town is outside of anyones control by a reasonable distance. Though, it does lie in the CA-controlled/influenced area on these maps.

Lordganon 03:03, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

The Yorkshire 'problem'
I am not recommending people living and farming there, it prob is too radioactive for that, but mining the area for salvage of valuble materials like lead, copper, zinc, whatever else they can find, would be feisable at least, then there is the fact that the area has large numbers of rivers, hydro power is a possibility, and if radioactive land is flooded whats the harm! wind turbines are also possible, short term exposure for the 'miners' would still be a risk, but Cleveland in particular has a history of using life-term prisoners for such work.

--Smoggy80 10:23, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

...You're missing my point, Smog. Lordganon 11:06, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

everything inside the M60 Manchester ring road is wrote off, too radioactive, only say 1 mile from any 200KT bomb and 1/2 mile or less from any 100KT bomb (take biggest value for multi hits) is still dangerous, and say 5 miles (or 2.5 for 100KT) for any long term habitation limit, any smaller nukes will already be safe (10KT or so). The 100KT blast zone you should be able to get fairly close to safely. So big safe (ish) passage from Blackburn (Lancaster) between Rochdale (100KT) and Huddersfield (100KT) down towards the peak district with only Sheffield (200KT and then 100KT blasts) in the way, as well as another slice north of Sheffield through Barnsley and Doncaster to the Humber River and Newolland territory.

The only 'dangerous areas' are 10 miles or so from Manchester (downwind longer, but not much) 10 miles from Leeds (Bradford to the west 100KT) and Sheffield (downwind longer, but not much) The maps show the area (roughly) abandoned circled.





as you can see there are large areas that will be safe for travel and/or salvage work--Smoggy80 12:39, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

And also as for radiation, the CA has two towns, Glasgow (CA capital of Scotland) and Liverpool (De facto capital of CA controlled NW England), near to 200KT blast sites.

and to be honest I can't see what your problem with the area? it not more radioactive than Liverpool or Glasgow--Smoggy80 13:00, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Again, you're not getting my point, though your data even illustrates it.

Between the radiated zones around Manchester/Rochdale and Huddersfield/Bradford, you've got about a five mile gap. At most. No large areas. Nor would Lancaster be crazy enough to try it.

Will Lancaster control eventually pass through it? No doubt, and they're already working on it, I'm sure. But the situation as you describe it is not realistic.

And, you guys need to quit being so blasted hung up on referendums.

As for Liverpool and Glasgow? The Glasgow strike hit a spot about 15 miles northwest from the outskirts of the city. Most of it remained very intact. Liverpool's strike hit around 7 or so miles away from the city center, also leaving most of it intact, though as has been indicated, causing more damage than happened at Glasgow. Both cities retained a fair portion of their populations, as well as much of the buildings.

The area between Manchester/Rochdale and Huddersfield/Bradford is far more radiated than either Liverpool or Glasgow.

Lordganon 20:15, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone else apart from LG have a problem with Cleveland and Lancaster dividing up South and West Yorkshire between them to use as a resource mine, NOT for habitation or farming as it is too radioactive?

--Smoggy80 18:13, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

If you're extracting resources then you're underground, right? What's the harm? ;D Nope, I believe it'd be perfectly plausible to use for mining or some kind of penal colony. Fegaxeyl 18:25, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Not in the context they're talking about. It's more so scavenging on the surface.

Using it for mining/scavenging means that there must be some sort of residence for these people.

And, my point is still being missed, here.

I've no net issue with the dividing it up, though Cleveland doing so in the South makes little sense, to me.

My problem is that assumption that Lancaster could take the area. That just makes no sense at all. It's just not feasible.

Lordganon 01:50, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I side with LG on this one. Any mining/scavenging operation in the area will require habitation to make it viable. And that simply isn't plausible (not impossible) in an irradiated area. And besides, why does Lancaster want a strip of irradiated land anyway. It isn't worth much. Yorkshire is vastly the preserve of Cleveland culturally and influentially. I find the idea of Lancaster moving in odd. Mumby 09:24, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Fine, scratch that idea then--Smoggy80 16:01, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

So can we all agree on this map, CA total extent, Southern Scotland, Cleveland, Northumbria and Newolland current full extent, Southern England possible future extent, Woodbridge, Lancaster (with the WFA hashed) and Essex extent with room to expand at a later date. With a big uncontrolled part in the middle, to be divided up between the OBN nations, depending on radiation levels.



Although I still have problems about New London being CA, I Personally think it would be part of Essex, (as its offical name is Combined Communities of Essex, Hertfordshire and London) either by now or shortly in the future along with whether the CA would be in charge in Buckinghamshire, Berkshire and Oxfordshire as it is called the Celtic Alliance not the Celtic Empire--Smoggy80 17:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The CA is not conquering people. Though that "Empire" line more or less agrees with what I've been saying about the need for outside control of that article, lol.

Remember, too, that the English can also be included, after a fashion, as being "Celtic." Not in language, but in identity. Have a look at the article on Celtic nations on wikipedia. Heck, even Galicia in Spain counts itself as being a bit Celtic.

To answer what you said on Arstar's page:

I'm aware of what intentions he's made known in the past. Which are decidedly not what he just told you, which isn't even plausible.

It also doesn't make much sense that unless a vote for it happened, the CA would return the territory to SS. It is without question a Celtic area, after all.

As for your post here...

One of the last things we should do is assign future territory. You'd also need to draw a line - a touch figuratively, at least, as it would not be a line outright - from CA territory near New London to up by Lancaster. The zone where the Celts have their stations set up isn't going to stop growing, though I'm sure it will slow down, as areas are outright incorporated, after all. And, New London wouldn't be just a spurt into Essex like that, it would cut off that Essex bit northwest of it. Such a border as on your map here doesn't make much sense, if you think about it, Smog.

Lordganon 21:52, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The area of Scotland in question was unclaimed when Ur Alba invaded it and took control, I'm not talking about the section around Stranraer, which is CA and has been for a while. It also has presendence as Northumbria handed back territory given to it after the Ur Alba war after the governmentof Southern Scotland was offically voted in.

I think I can probably talk for the other British/English editors by saying we catagorically do not think of ourselves as 'Celtic' in any way, most people who live in England, Britain, whatever, think of ourselves as seperate, even the Welsh and Cornish have distinct national identities and within England we have distinct regional identities, very much seperate from the others. Otherwise when we started out articles on the DD page we would've been a lot more Celtic orientated. What you said is a lot like saying American's are like Canadian's or Mexican's.

--Smoggy80 18:15, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Also as Arstar is still editor for the CA, (as you will not allow the OBN editors or myself to take over, despite him asking me in person) can he not do as he wishes with the CA? (within reason obviously, no conquering the Nordic Union or anything stupid and within canon also) if he doesn't want as much land for HIS nation what is stopping him refusing the land? or even setting up independance movements in sectors of the CA? or do you want to take over the Celtic Alliance full time LG?--Smoggy80 18:35, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest the Celtic Alliance's interpretation of 'Celtic' is closer to the English reinterpretation of the 19th century. Few people in Britain actually consider themselves to be Celtic, though a few pig-headed English might refer to Wales-Scotland-Ireland-Cornwall as the Celtic Fringe. And Smog is right about regional identities. I am proud to identify myself as a Fenog. Thats the thing about Britishness. Its all things to all people. And by the way, Any land annexed by the Celts from Ur Alba has been Celtic for what, less than a year? Yeah, REALLY Celtic. You make it sound as if everyone went from being Scots to being Celts at some turning point, when in fact there are many groups of people with differing opinions. Liberators yes. Rulers maybe not. After all, other British nations nearby also provided aid. But lets not argue. Lets have a constructive debate about the issues at hand, not wiki politics like you're doing Smog. Mumby 09:35, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for some reason, Mumby.

Smog, calm the heck down. What on earth is with you today?

You guys both missed my point about the annexed area of Scotland. Yes, it's only been Celtic territory a short period. But, that is not at all what I meant.

In the CA, and to Celtic peoples, the Scots are Celtic. Not that the annexed area consists of Celtic citizens, but a Celtic People. Without question, this is a truth.

Given the large number of Scots in the CA already, and that the Scots are a Celtic People, in therefore makes little sense for the CA to even consider giving them up. And, they'd be better off in most regards with them as well.

Guys, read the blasted link I quoted. Look at the links inside that article, too.

I'm well aware that only a small, minuscule, percentage of English consider themselves Celtic in any way. What I'm saying is, however, that if you stretch what "Celtic" entails, as some do, and no doubt more do atl, you can easily include England in its definition, at its broadest. Think about it: the original people in England, before all of the conquests, introductions of other peoples, etc., was Celts.

That knowledge would easily be used to justify any such movements. That is what I'm saying. Not that the English are Celtic - I'm not stupid - but that they do have some Celtic roots, which could easily be used and promoted by the CA. And, in the west of England, that this would be even easier to accomplish.

And, that was also rather insulting to all three of those countries, Smog.

I have stated my very justified opposition to any complete takeover of the CA by the OBN editors. Heck, Smog's last post before those.... rants? furthered my argument in this regard.

I will say this again: what Arstar is now saying is not what he has said in the past. What he is now saying is just not plausible, in many regards.

I admit, I debated taking it over from Arstar a few months ago, in order to at least get something done to it. Changed my mind several times, and ended up deciding not to, if nothing else to avoid this trash, plus the fact that I did not actually want to. Couple weeks after that, the current setup was installed, which I don't mind at all, as it gets updated, yet prevents implausibility, or excess, from happening. Right about now, I'm definitely regretting my choice, given all of the garbage of the last little bit.

Lordganon 10:09, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Lancaster's Application to Join...again
I've copied this from further up as it appears we've forgotten about it!

A referendum has been held and the results were in favour of joining, partly because Lancaster seems to have a habit of copying Cleveland, but largely for the economic advantages and because Lancaster shares a border with the CA and while things are civil at the moment, it never hurts to have some back-up when you've got a much stronger next-door neighbour. Tessitore 20:48, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I vote we retcon in their admission to coincide with Cleveland and Northumbria's admission. Provided Mumby can provide an updated, 7-star flag - out of his infinite kindness and charity :D - then I would be happy to sort out the situation. Fegaxeyl 20:53, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Would that really work, given that Lancaster applied some time after Cleveland and Northumbria (the referendum was on 3rd November, so the application wouldn't have be sent off until about the 5th)? Tessitore 21:11, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Their applications both turned up around the 1st or 3rd, so it wouldn't be impractical for the Lancastrian application to be seen as part of the same package. Fegaxeyl 21:20, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

When will Lancaster be made part of the OBN? and do we back date it? as the application was made well over a year ago, maybe make it part of the OBN mid 2011?--Smoggy80 17:59, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also does the WFA get accepted at the same time? as it is a protectorate of Lancaster--Smoggy80 18:03, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, you had me worried there that I'd been hacked, I couldn't remember posting those messages! Um, certainly, let's retcon Lancaster in. As for WFA, well, that depends whether or not it's the legal successor to Rheged, which I believe was also in? Fegaxeyl 19:37, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Errr..... Huh?

Lancaster is a member according to the flag of the OBN. Just hasn't been written in yet. No retconning, just someone actually has to write it.

Why would the WFA be a member when it's a protectorate? Especially when the stated end goal was likely annexation by Lancaster anyways.

Lordganon 21:04, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

The WFA broke away from Rheged because it thought the government in Carlisle was becoming to close to Northumbria and Cleveland, the north of Rheged then became part of Northumbria.

I guess its up to Tess to decide exactly when Lancaster was accepted, and any ceramonial stuff associated, so Tess writing that section might be best, as for the WFA I did mean was should it be brought in at the same time as Lancaster (as its a protectorate of Lancaster) or does it get included when it become a full part of Lancaster (which may be this year, or next year) --Smoggy80 13:13, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Go with it becoming part whenever it actually joins Lancaster. Lordganon 17:59, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Railways
I'm not sure what you guys think, but I'm certainly under the impression the best way of getting round Britain currently is by train. So what and where are the main rail lines? Is there a project to build a single coastal railway uniting all the nations, which can then intersect the one between Cleveland and Lancaster? Is there a need to do this? Does coastal shipping provide a better alternative?

By extension, are these trains coal-fired, or are they diesel, or are they electric? How developed are train networks within each nation? Would it be economically feasible for our nations to do so?

Food for thought; I'd love to hear everyone's ideas. I imagine there's some interesting ground to be covered here due to Britain's rich locomotive heritage. Would there be some sort of symbiosis, with the north building the trains and the south providing the diesel? That would certainly give my economically doomed Essex something to do with itself - massive biofuel growth! Fegaxeyl 12:28, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Currently Albion Railways has a line from Glasgow (CA) through Southern Scotland, Northumbria, Cleveland, over the Humber Bridge along the Lincolnshire coast of Newolland as far south as Bourne, Newolland.

There is a line between Cleveland and Lancaster and between Carlisle and Alnwick in Northumbria, as well as extensive lines throughout Cleveland.

Northumbria and Cleveland both have steam locomotive works there are also lots of coal mines in Cleveland, Northumbria and Newolland.

--Smoggy80 13:16, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...

Given my understanding of things, coastal shipping would be more efficient. However.... these states also have a shortage of merchant shipping of that nature, and a low port capacity in most cases. Trains are going to be better for now, but not likely long-term.

Lordganon 14:31, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it already canon that there's a rail line from Bourne following on to Chelmsford? The same line would inevitably follow on to Southend. I suppose a train ferry could carry over into Kent and from there go all the way to Southern England... so the OBN is basically already connected. Essex, though, still sounds like it's doomed, unless there's suddenly a big demand for diesel! @LG, I agree that coastal shipping is plausibly superior (as it was in the medieval ages) but I imagine the invention of the train meant that historically their usefulness dropped. Unless you have evidence to the contrary - that'd be interesting to discuss. Fegaxeyl 14:54, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

The further inland you go, the better rail is.

Coastal shipping of one sort or another is still very much a going concern today. Have a look at this article and the sources it cites for some figures.

Past that....

Trains held little impact on coastal shipping otl. Rather, it was shipping on canals that they screwed over, putting all but the largest or best placed ones out of business - and these last ones got screwed over by road transport after the 20s/30s. By and large, coastal shipping is going to be slightly faster, though this depends greatly on the distance, and geography. For example, if a ship has to go around a peninsula, but a train does not.... train's going to be faster, barring a canal. If the train needs to take a ferry, the ship will be faster.

Obvious, something from Cleveland to Lancaster, train is faster. But, something from Woodbridge to Cleveland, the ship will take a bit shorter trip, or about the same. And, ships can carry more.

Basically, short trips, trains. Longer ones, it'll be ships. Not always the case, and very dependent on the geography, but as a general idea.

Have a look around, and you'll get what I mean, I think.

Lordganon 15:43, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Here's a map of the rail lines in Woodbridge. They are currently building some new lines:
 * Woodbridge to Stockmarket
 * Stockmarket to Brandon

In order to connect the Woodbridge lines to the one that runs down the east coast it would probably be necessary for there to be a connecting line from Brandon to Bourne. All the trains in Woodbridge run on bio-diesel



Verence71 14:58, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

It also depends on what you're transporting, obviously anything perishable, like milk or fish, trains would be best, because they are faster, unless there are fast refridgeraded ships out there. Passengers trains would be more likely unless the person doesn't mind it taking a while.

anything bulky and non perishable, stone, timber, steel, machinary e.t.c. then ships are better. --Smoggy80 17:55, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

At a broad generalisation, then, one could say that the more agricultural south relies on trains more than the more mining/industrial north (except for inland stuff, obviously). Fegaxeyl 18:16, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Again, trains are not a given to be faster. In many cases, they are actually slower. Depends on geography. And, as noted, merchant shipping can hold an enormous amount of goods by comparison.

As an example, an average sized ship today holds in the range of 250 rail cars of product. And a train, especially with the engines in question here, wouldn't even manage a third of that. It's cheaper, too. Of course, shipping sizes are smaller here, but.... you can tell.

Really, the north is going to be more dependent on trains, with the south more so on shipping, except for short distances in a few spots. Fish can be salted and shipped easily, along with it being a more short-range good, and milk is a short-distance good at best. Most shipped goods in the south would be grains, or similar items. Easily transportable. Really, the north is dependent on inland things, and the south is on seaside things.

Lordganon 00:17, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Just to let you know if added on the Northumbria page that Albion Railways are starting to renovate the old west coast Main line, the first section will link Carlisle and Lancaster (expected completion date of August 2012) followed by a section linking Carlisle with Glasgow.--Smoggy80 12:24, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Relations with Lille
Are you guys aware of the nation of Lille? It's a survivor state made up of northern France and bits of Flanders (no surprise if you haven't heard of it, basically no editing has ever happened in that region for years). I'm wondering what relations would be like with this nation - it's geographically very close to Britain, and has many historical links with England (trade in cloth and lace, and of course the Ypres Salient). Unfortunately the article is very lacking in detail so we can't be certain about it - unless someone wants to adopt it, of course. But yeah, I just wonder what you guys think the relations would be like? Certainly Southern England and Essex, which both control Kent, would be very close to this nation. Fegaxeyl 21:43, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Relations almost non-existent, on all counts. SE and Essex would be the only ones talking to them, at all, the CA aside. Lordganon 05:23, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think Lille has resources and services it can offer. After all, Lancaster could well ship its flax, wool and linen produce to Lille, which it can make into lace and cloth. I'm not entirely sure but this could be used in ropemaking too, which then has a market in Cleveland. Fegaxeyl 08:00, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

.... Resources and Services does not relations make. Lordganon 08:40, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Lancaster Trading Company has them on their list of 'people we're flogging stuff to', although I'm not entirely sure what is being traded (I reasoned that doing business would be easier if there wasn't a language barrier and that French was the language most likely to have at least one Lancastrian who could speak it, so I basically just put down all the French survivour nations that could be reached by sea).Tessitore 15:44, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

After decoding that statement, LG, we have to remember that this is a post-Doomsday world. Nowhere is equipped to do everything well. High-quality textiles coming from Lille would be valuable for the OBN nations, so the British states would wish to keep the trade lanes open. With trade comes good relations. Indeed, the history of the region proves this - the Flemish towns of Ghent, Ypres and that region were close to Britain even before WWI because of historical trade links.

I've no idea what the LTC could be trading, Tess, though I imagine it could have a go at flax, linen and wool if the government of Lancaster isn't trying. Fegaxeyl 07:48, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm well aware of what world it is, Feg. What I'm saying is that any large things of that nature is a bit of a stretch. Lordganon 09:15, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

I would imagine Southern England and Essex would have tradelinks with lille, it is only over the channel after all, Woodbridge also, although it is that little bit further north. Newolland, unlikely as it doesn't have a strong merchant navy, Cleveland, more than likely as they are trading with the Nordic Union, North Germany and Prussia, so going south wouldn't be difficult, The Celtic Alliance would be the most likely to trade with them as they are in former France in Brittany and Normandy. Then of course there are the trading organisations such as the Cleveish Singleton Clan and the Lancaster Trading Company.--Smoggy80 12:26, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree with Smoggy, and while I agree it could be a stretch for some, LG - Lancaster being an example which in retrospect is on slightly plausible - the other nations would be all over it. Perhaps even Newolland - this stretches plausibility somewhat but Lille does control the Flemish Lands. The Dutch there may be drawn to 'New Holland', seeing how the rest of it is lightly irradiated from Brussels and any other nuked towns in the area. This would obviously help Newolland with settling its massive landgrab. Fegaxeyl 17:11, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Norfolk
I have a few ideas about the current situation in "unoccupied" Norfolk and I was wondering whether it would be worth creating a completely new page about it or just place the information in a sub-section of the Woodbridge page?? Verence71 16:15, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Depends on whether any other nations would be involved apart from Woodbridge, there is a page Invasion of Norfolk (1983: Doomsday) it could be included as a subsection?--Smoggy80 17:16, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, a reasonably detailed page would add nice flavour to the timeline and be some kind of snapshot/overview of what life is like in uncivilised, post-DD Britain. Fegaxeyl 17:26, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Smoggy, the "Invasion of Norfolk" only dealt with the west of the county so, as you say that could perhaps be a subsection of any "Norfolk" page

Feg, one of the ideas I have at the moment is to have various towns and villages along the east and north coasts of the county as bases for various pirate clans, the major ones being based in Great Yarmouth and Cromer/Sheringham Verence71 19:28, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Does that mean some of your research on Somalia will be useful here, then? After all, both Somalia and Norfolk have pirate-held towns on the coast... (Wow, never thought I'd say that sentence.) Fegaxeyl 20:09, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough that did occur to me and like Somalia (in both this ATL and OTL) Norfolk hasn't had a single government for more than 20 years Verence71 20:21, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think that you should do another article - Woodbridge will need some help, I'd imagine. After, of course, finishing the similar one you currently have in progress. Lordganon 23:12, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

You mean the Republic of Somalia?? That could certainly do with bringing up to date a bit if only very basically. Verence71 23:25, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

More like this one... . Lordganon 23:28, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

That one's actually my responsibility, it got interrupted by exams and I never really picked up momentum on it again. Fegaxeyl 09:12, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

All areas clearly state that it's both of yours. Lordganon 09:44, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Verence was writing the political side, I was writing the military side. No need to get tetchy, LG, I know my own agreements. Fegaxeyl 10:15, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

....Which concurs with what I just said. Lordganon 11:04, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I was being specific. Take a chill pill, LG. Fegaxeyl 11:18, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

A page about the wild uncivilised parts of Norfolk would be useful, and interesting. Cleveland had dealings with pirates in that area in the past, although those areas are now part of Newolland (I think?).

Using Sheringham/Cromer or even the smaller towns of Blakeney or Wells-next-the-Sea as basetowns for the pirates would be a good idea, I think Great Yarmouth would be a little too close to Woodbridge to still be pirates--Smoggy80 17:22, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

You're probably right about Great Yarmouth

There's plenty of coastal towns/villages in an easterly direction from Wells that could be pirate bases.

The B1159 road could prove a useful reference point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B1159_road

Verence71 18:31, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yes that page gives a good list of coastal towns in that area, a very good start point! If the OBN nations are going to be used, Newolland, Cleveland and Northumbria will be able to help with any military or engineering help.--Smoggy80 14:06, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

I've also found that the district of North Norfolk was orginally to be known as Pastonacres, but the council changed their mind on the name at the last minute in the 1974 boundary changes, but could be a good name the Pastonacres Pirates saying that it does that sound more like an American football team! lol--Smoggy80 14:12, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

It occurs to me that the Bacton Gas Terminal could be a useful base for a pirate/bandit clan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacton_Gas_Terminal

Verence71 19:45, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

Surely it would have been nuked? Fegaxeyl 21:14, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

There's no mention of it on the list of nukes that hit Britain on Doomsday but who knows... Verence71 23:26, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

There's really no reason to hit it. Lordganon 23:52, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

It's a key economical target? Cities aren't nuked just for being cities, they're targeted for their key industrial areas - the fact that the rest of the city is destroyed is mostly just collateral. Likewise, important parts of the economy, such as ports, gas refineries, and power stations, are priority targets. Indeed, targeting the energy infrastructure will arguably have the greatest effect of all, since it renders most industry useless. Fegaxeyl 08:02, February 27, 2012 (UTC)