Talk:1983: Doomsday

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=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Co-operation between the British survivor nations
Presumably there are trade links between the Celtic Alliance, Cleveland, Northumbria and Woodbridge but at some point would there also be political links?? I'm not talking about a unified country but perhaps an organisation along the line of the OTL European Union in order to give the four nations a larger voice on the European and world stages.

Another idea I had was for annual sporting competitions between the four nations along the line of the old Home Internationals in football and Six Nations in rugby union. Verence71 16:30, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

North Sea Oil
What happened to the rigs during/after Doomsday?? Verence71 15:56, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

they probably survied the immediate. the crews probably fled to either the Nordic Union or the Celtic Alliance. I don't know if the rigs themselves could have survived 27 years of neglet. Thn agian, according to life after people, the USS missouri's hull is expected to last about 20,000 years Without maintiance. --HAD 14:30, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

I was more concerned with the oilfields in the southern North Sea many of which are connected to the Bacton Gas Terminal on the coast of Norfolk. I think it's concievable that that terminal could eventually come under the control of Woodbridge should that nation expand out of Suffolk. Alternatively Bacton itself could become the centre of a seperate small survivor state Verence71 10:52, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Adopting the Confederación Iberica (1983: Doomsday)
Tristan has been absent for some time, and the CI plays into my hands perfectly. I plan on changing nothing of it's past, only leading it into an Aragonese confederation whose central government has quite a bit of power. If Tristan comes back and doesn't like the changes, I'm more than happy to change them back and he and I can discuss them and change them to something that makes us both happy. Mr.Xeight 02:22, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well you need to follow the . I believe we agreed on a 3 month period of inactivity (Tristan is up to 2 months) and you need to contact the old caretaker as well first (which you have not done). Sorry if I sound like a jerk but this is why we have the guidelines in the first place. Mitro 03:57, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

It's not what you say, but how you say it. Mr.Xeight 01:01, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

The fate of the British Indian Ocean Territory aka Chagos Islands
The fate of the British overseas territories is known. The only exception seems to be the British Chagos Islands. Was it nuked because of the Diego Garcia base? Which nation would claim and actually control the islands after Doomsday, the Seychelles, Mauritius/R.T.A., ANZC or New Britain? What do you think? Grand Prince Paul II. 22:23, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about it, but reading Wikipedia, the base sounds highly strategic, if small. It's a Navy base and part of the Strategic Space Command network. Very likely a target, if you ask me.
 * Intriguingly, by 1983 the entire native population had been re-settled in Mauritius and the Seychelles, to make room for that base. Maybe some of them have gone back to Chagos, and it's now a dependency of either Mauritius or Seychelles. Benkarnell 22:41, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Surely as New Britain is a naval nation, it would only make sense for them to claim it as their own. Bob 18:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've opposed most N. British expansion every step of the way (I pretty much see NB as an idea barely within the bounds of plausibility that is always trying to burst out). But in this case, I think this is something they would do. NB has a known history of exploring former British islands and annexing them through the cunning use of flags... What do you say to this sample TL?
 * 1999: The Seychelles lead a resettlement of 500 Chagossians to the archipelago, and annex the islands.
 * 2003: New Britain sends an expedition and is surprised to find the islands inhabited.
 * 2006: New British naval expedition captures the Chagos. The Seychelles do not have the military hardware to oust them.
 * 2008: The Seychelles settle on a blockade. This state of affairs basically continues today: New British forces occupy the Chagos, but are cut off from home. The blockade is occasionally run, so they have enough supplies to survive, but NB has been unable to break the blockade. Benkarnell 19:18, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * That seems to make perfect sense to me. I would prefer it if Chagos remains inhabited. On another note, I wrote down about NB encouraging immigration from the Commonwealth to NB to bolster their relatively low population. I take it the Australian Aborigines are still in a pretty unpleasant condition as OTL. Well I was thinking that they consent to emigrate to NB to escape the cycle of drugs and crime in their homeland. Not all of them obviously. Only about 1000. Bob 19:30, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see as how the Seychelles could have the naval might to maintain an effective blockade against New Britain.Oerwinde 20:05, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought the big question would be, "How can a small country like New Britain hope to forcibly occupy a hostile island thousands of miles away, especially as it has many other military commitments at the moment?
 * Here's how I imagine the situation: from New Britain's perspective, it's going to be impossible to maintain the position at Chagos long term. It's far away, whereas the Seychelles are right in the area. Defense money is desperately needed at home, where NB is not only surrounded by hostile or potentially hostile states, it's also currently occupying the Xhosa state, which has a size and population at least matching New Britain itself.  However, old British military hardware and know-how mean that their Marines can hunker down in the Chagos for quite a long time.  And pulling out would be political suicide: the government is dominated by a party that calls themselves Imperialists, for heaven's sake, and even before that party too over, the others no doubt sensed the way the winds were blowing and would not have wanted to be the party that "lost the Indian Ocean Territory."  So the long war of attrition continues.
 * Meanwhile, on the Chagos, things must be far from peaceful. If any group has a right to be angry with the British Empire, it's the Chagossians.  They were all forcibly evicted from their islands in the 1960s, when that sort of imperialist overlord nonsense was supposed to have ended.  And no sooner had they arrived home to the bombed-out wreckage of their islands, but here come the British again! If I were a Chagossian, I'd be furious at the British, the Americans (it was an American base that was built there), the Russians, the Cold War, everything.  Some of them are probably still living among the New British occupiers (but are awfully upset about that); some have probably hooked up with the Seycheles fleet and gone back to their temporary homes, and I can imagine a few moving outside the British fortifications and waging a sort of guerrilla campaign to rid their island of the imperialists.
 * Incidentally, I can see the Cocos Islands monarchy getting involved herre, if only by making money running supplies for one (or both) of the sides. Benkarnell 20:12, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have thought that the Cocos Island s Monarchy would support NB since they share a relatively similar history and culture. Also what of my idea for the Aborigine immigrants? Bob 20:33, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't really comment on the Aboriginal idea because I'm really uninformed about it. It fits with NB's policy toward the Ulster Scots, but then the ANZC might have a big problem with NB actively encouraging their citizens to emigrate.  The ANZ has a considerable military presence in South Africa, don't forget, and NB would probably want to stay on their good side.
 * As for the Cocos Islands, the mdynasty probably can't afford to indulge in questions of culture. The biggest threat to their power, after all, is the ANZC, the neighbor with whom they share the most, culturally speaking.  They have to be aware that they are playing a very dangerous game.  The Clunies-Rosses were the ones for their islands in 1983.  Now that the world has opened up once again, it's pretty clear that their time is passing.  Their foreign policy can be summed up as "Don't Make Anyone Angry".  It won't take much to get the ANZC to say "the hell with this" and re-oconquer what they (rightly!) see as a rogue territory of theirs.  Benkarnell 21:44, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ever hear about the American Colonization Society? It was a pre-American Civil War organizatiopn that thought free blacks would be happier in Africa than North America.  They established a colony on West Africa that today is the nation of Liberia (a true African success sotry).  Funny enough the group of people who were most against their scheme were the same people they were trying to help.  Most free blakcs would rather struggle for freedom and equality in their birth land than on an alien and hostile continent hundreds of miles away.  In this ATL, I feel that most aborigines would feel the same way about a proposal for them to settle in southern Africa.  Mitro 18:40, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a very good point. And the African-Americans had lived there for, at most, 200 years at that point - the Aborigines have been in Australia for thousands and thousands.  Benkarnell 19:23, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Though we are getting off topic, New Britain's future history might parallel that of Liberia. Mitro 18:46, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

Google Earth historical pictures
I stumbled upon this article

Googleearth historical pictures ... does anyone know/see any use for us here? aby experiences made with this?

Xi&#39;Reney 12:07, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

New World Map
Due to size, the discussion for the new world map has been moved here: File talk:World83DD v1.2.PNG. Mitro 17:57, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * We really need to get this finished. The old map is way to out of date. Mitro 03:03, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Riley.Konner 18:28, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * New version under construction: File:World map feb 10.png. Discussion can move to File talk:World map feb 10.png. Benkarnell 16:32, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like itOwen1983 16:43, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Good job on the map, Ben! BrianD 00:08, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Fabulatious! this is brilliant. well done ben!--HAD 11:04, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Great map and thanks for adding Woodbridge :) Has anyone thought about adding regional map ie for North American, Europe and Africa?? Verence71 13:34, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * North America.Oerwinde 08:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I love the new map, but I have a few issues with it.

1.The borders for Virginia and Lincoln are still too small.The Lincolnites control every part of Nebraska the NAU doesn't, and Virginia controls the portion of Kentucky on the Cumberland Plateau. Both nations should have their borders be up to the borders of their neighboring nation (NAU for Lincoln and Kentucky for Virginia)

2.The Assiniboians control not only a larger territory in Canada, but a chunk of North Dakota large enough to get the Lakotans riled up.

3.I am seeing nations that as far as i can tell do not have articles to back up their existence. For example, I couldn't find any refrence to Mali

Yankovic270 02:10, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mali is mentioned on the West African Union page as a potential member along with Burkina Faso. Oerwinde 08:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the WAU page is where the existence of Mali, Burkina Faso, and Benin is mentioned. It also says that Sierra Leone is in "political turmoil" which I took to mean it's disunited like South Africa and Angola and Liberia. I admit that I assumed the boundary for Mali, but it's the natural one (following the northern edge of the Niger valley) so I think it's OK. The only other border that I completely made up was my old nemesis, German Southwest Africa. I would have liked to mark it as one of the italic nations (we know it exists, but have no idea of its location or size), but I had to mark it purple to show its membership in the New Union.
 * As for the size of Lincoln and Virginia, I know we've talked about that a lot, but it's been a while, so a refresher can't hurt. Virginia's borders were made by Darth Einstein in his original (File:Doomsday 2009.png, and they seemed about right: basically West Virginia, plus a bit more in all directions. It's already the largest nation (by territory) west of the Mississippi. I thought consensus opinion was that this is the most likely and correct size for it, but then again, I don't remember if that's consensus or just my own opinion.
 * For Lincoln, I admit I did shrink Darth Einstein's borders for it. My thoughts: (1) the size I depicted is already quite huge for a city-state; (2) Lincoln would have little need to expand much beyond that (it's all pretty much nomad-inhabited prairie anyway), and indeed expanding needlessly would only create extra expense; and (3) even if it did expand, it's probably not going to pay much attention to the old Nebraska border, which is at this point a fairly meaningless straight line.
 * Anyway, that was what I was thinking. I honestly had thought the matter was settled but I see I was wrong. I'm more than open to correction if I was too hasty. 207.177.213.142 16:23, February 3, 2010 (UTC) (Benkarnell)

Virginia would still have a border with the neighboring Kentucky, due to its territory in the former US state of the same name. If you had read the article I created on Lincoln you would have known that it is not just a citystate. It is an independant republic governed by the remains of the Nebraska state government. As such most of its citizenry, while gaining an independant identity as Lincolnites, believe that Lincoln is the sucessor to the old US state they feel it is their duty to reclaim as much of the state's territory as possible. And since the Lakotan territory disputes with Assiniboia are now canon they need a cause. namely the Assiniboian territory in North Dakota. I keep bringing these issues up because I want my ideas to be properly illustrated. The borders i decscribed are what I consider my nations to look like.

Yankovic270 17:27, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

well, how the borders would be drawn depend on who is drawing the map. In modern times, we would probably do this fancy dotted line thing and then color the area the color of the audience's choice--- or whoever administers the area. I also think that part of this is the inner struggle for greatness, where a writer proposes an idea, an the rest of us say "that's too big, too fast, and too advanced". then we kind of scuffle over it until map's come out. Quite personally, I do not see how a state where people worship Abraham Lincoln is going to thrive. Exist-- possible. grow to the size of the state of nebraska? Highly unlikely. Religions historically don't "pop" into existance, particuarly dramatically new ones.Desert viking 20:38, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * This map is supposed to be totally unbiased in that it shows effective control, not claims. No doubt Lincoln's home-made maps show it encompassing all of Nebraska. And DV, I think that "Lincolnism" is a religious movement within the republic that is still in minority. I'm sure it gets lots of attention and is something of an embarassment for mainstream Lincolnians: I can imagine that many people in North America believe Lincoln to be full of people worshipping Abe. But it's not the official state religion or anything... at least, that was my understanding when I read it (and yes Yank, I've read it, many times). @Yank - being an "independent republic" does not preclude being a city-state: Rome and Athens managed just fine as both for quite a long time, as has Singapore more recently. I had honestly thought that in the discussions of it everyone agreed that it couldn't take up all of Nebraska. As for Virginia/Kentucky - are they supposed to be touching? I admit I haven't read Kentucky's page; I think most of it was written while I was not active. Benkarnell 22:40, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

I am sure that the borders of Kentucky and Virginia should be touching. Virginia has a chunk of eastern Knetucky, and southeastern Ohio. Both of which are alongside with Kentucky's territory in the area.

Supersonic91 18:57, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

The USSR needs another major edit. For some reasons, the USSR-territory does only include the utterly northern part of the Ural, although text and map of canon USSR-article clearly stated that it is part of it. It's even called the Ural territory. Additionaly, Aralia should be coloured red-ish to show its dependence after the recent war. Grand Prince Paul II. 07:50, February 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll change the Soviet border to conform with the main Siberia map. But ... this is just me personally, but I'm very much against making Virginia and Kentucky bigger.  Unfortunately the Kentucky maps are canon, so I guess I'll make the big map reflect them.  But how in the world did a fortress-state based around Ft Knox take over the greater part of three American states????
 * Well Ben I also am starting to have issues with the size of Kentucky. I'm not exactly sure how this got by us but I think as a group we need to discuss the Kentucky expansion in more detail.  So IMO I would hold off on making Virginia and Kentucky any larger until this is settled.  Mitro 16:26, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Open for Adoption Template
What do you think? Bob 20:35, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Curses!! Its gone wrong!! This bounder of a computer!! Bob 20:38, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

As a fellow British citizen Bob, i think neccasary to point out that bounder in this context is as obselete as a galleon at midway. HAD 20:16, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Another flag poll
So there are some changes in the works for the and I am looking for a new flag. Over the next few days I will accept submissions for a new flag, but once the voting starts there can be no more flags submitted. The first three flags were all created by South and you can see his explanation for them here. Mitro 23:13, February 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, added my 2 cents. Since I have to get in on every flag submission thingy.Oerwinde 07:52, February 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I vote for flag number one! HAD 12:21, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Oerwinde, I like your submission. The circle is more appealing to the eye. I essensially went the path of least resistence in cutting the nine stars out of the old flag and enlarging them. I can see where using the orginal smaller stars would produce more of a circle out of "my" design. However, I don't see how the center star would be justifiable if it were an "original" design. A nine star circle (like the thirteen star cirle of the 1977 "Betsy Ross Flag") would more naturally evolve. However, like I said, I like the design. SouthWriter 17:01, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Which flag should Mitro choose for the Provisional United States? Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4

Wow, it looks like Option 4 is the winner. Mitro 03:58, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Article of the Month: South America
Trying something new here, if it works we might stick with it. Anyway this month's article of the month is. While no one is required to work on this article, we do ask that you please take some time to add to this article and hopefully through a group effort we can turn this stub into a good article. Mitro 13:30, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
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Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Olympics??
According to International Olympic Committee (1983: Doomsday), the first postwar Games won't happen until 2012! I'd love to follow the Vancouver games with parallel ones in Zurich, but I don't think we'll get to do that for another two years. Benkarnell 05:18, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I guess it says that Zurich's hosting a "limited" Games. Shall I start a page on it? I'm interested in which nineteen countries are competing. Probably the only smallish participants are from Europe, with the rest coming from S. America and the ANZC. (And probably none of the ANZ's satellite countries will be sending teams.) But it's still true that the Summer Games won't happen until 2012. That postponement was a fairly significant news cycle last year. Benkarnell 15:16, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I moved it back to '12 because I thought the traditional Olympic cycle would make more sense. That, and the Olympics would bump up against the World Cup...which does not happen in our timeline and would be a bigger issue in their timeline. I think the DD world would prefer that major sporting events happen in separate years. As far as the Winter Games, feel free to start that page (I'm tapped out...I have several other pages here to work on, not to mention life in general). I am establishing the IOC in TTL gearing up towards a full resumption - pomp and all - of the Winter Games in '12. You should probably work this part in from the IOC page, too: "The vote for the 2012 Winter Games is said to be held in February 2010, and the IOC is discussing moving the Winter Games to two years before/after the Summer Games." I would put the 2012 Winter Games in Siberia/USSR, and have the IOC vote on whether to keep the Winter Games in line with the Summer Games (same year), or have the Winter Games 2 years before/after the Summer Games (which would mean a 2014 Games; I would propose having the Nordic Union as a primary advocate for this, in part because it stands to benefit from having the 2014 Games in Norway and Sweden. BrianD 15:34, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Reviews of 1983: Doomsday
You find people discussing 1983: Doomsday in the strangest of places: http://www.golemlabs.com/community/showthread.php?p=413704. Mitro 02:20, February 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's exciting! I'm very glad they have good things to say. How cool would it be to have someone else create an RPG based on our work? Benkarnell 12:18, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have seen people discuss the same thing on a Civ fan forum. Mitro 15:19, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm just thrilled they like the Siberia I created =). I personally think HOI 2 would be a better place to make the mod, but the same problem would arise that these guys discuss: What about the unclaimed land? I'd personally reduce it to probably being a rebel faction.--Vladivostok 19:11, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats probably why Civilization would be better. Just leave the lands empty or stick in some barbarians to be stand ins for all of the brigands, nomands, and raiders that haunt the blank areas of DD landscape.  Mitro 23:10, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

Poland
I have an idea for a Polish survivor state with its capital in Wroclaw. is this a plauible idea? --HAD 14:43, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wroclaw is the 4th largest city of Poland, it might have been destroyed during Doomsday. Mitro 14:57, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Okay. if it were, are their more plausible alternatives for a polish survior state? --HAD 16:28, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well there is a Polish survivor state mention in the article. You should contact Oer about it if you want to expand on the idea more. Mitro 16:30, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look for places that can feed themselves for the long-term. Some sort of natural defenses would also be a plus. So would an existing administrative structure like in a provincial capital, etc. Benkarnell 16:47, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking making an article about Poland, it seems like the most likely area for a survivor region would be southern Poland. Riley.Konner 21:51, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

i was actually basing the Polish idea on the state mentioned in the Prussia article. will contact Oer.. HAD 18:02, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations. Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines. nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean. Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s. Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * what happened to the satalites already orbiting? most of the communications on the ground would be gone, but would it be possible to rework the systems?Desert viking 18:16, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation. Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, this is an old proposal but it's good that it waited so long. The Alaska paragraph can now be brought into line with what we now know about that conflict.... whatever that is. Benkarnell 19:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

New British elections
British elections coming up! Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * See 2009 Realm of New Britain General Election (1983: Doomsday) for the article in question. Mitro 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the Anglo-Africans just continue parties popular among them, such as the Progressive Federal Party, instead of copying British parties for no apparent reason? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * We've already noted that British people from the UK came to New Britain. Many of these people would have been politicians, with a collapsing government and civil disorder, when an existing stable party community arrives, it only makes sense that they would take root and stabilise political aggravations. Bob 13:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh sure, that make sense. It's the Anglo-Africans I'm talking about however. Why would they conform to a model identical to the one previously used in Britain and forget everything about their own political history? Especially given the fact that they form the majority of the population, that just doesn't make sense to me. Also, given the fact that South Africa used a system of proportional representation and I've never heard of any country that moved from a proportional system to a district system as rigid as the British one (correct me if I'm wrong on this though), my estimate is New Britain would definitely have more than just two to three political parties. You may even want to spice things up by adding an ethnic Xhosan party, openly supportive of KwaXhosa. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:38, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is I've put in alot of information into the table but it doesn't come up. Can anyone help? Bob 11:34, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

There would be a large Xhosa population, given NB's location. But Karsten, a couple things: South Africa's state collapsed and there was a lot of population displacement, so it's plausible that NB wouldn't resemble South Africa too closely. Though since most people would be used to a PR government, I would expect them to keep that. Benkarnell 18:23, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I think kertens got a good point a political parties should reflect the ethnic diversity in NB --Owen1983 18:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Bob 16:38, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there would be an "Afrikaans National Party" in New Britain. The history suggests that most Afrikaaners were replaced by Anglo-Africans.  Mitro 02:59, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

This is another very, very old proposal. Bob, have you thought about Karsten's point about a PR system? Benkarnell 19:08, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

A PR system allows more parties more seats. This leads to weaker governments and less control. The government will spend more more time bickering than getting things done. This is precisely what New Britain doesn't need. Bob 17:54, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that your own personal politics or what the people of NB decided? The British refugees come from a country with a long history of being under a PR system.  South Africa where NB is located, has one as well.  It seems implausible that these people would forget centuries of political history and try a whole new system.  Mitro 19:11, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually British elections have always been run on a first past the post system. Elections for the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly are run using a mix of first past the post and proportional representation. The Northern Ireland Assembly is elected using Single Transferable Vote. However none of those devolved assemblies existed in 1983 Verence71 12:54, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Question: would the UK manage to evacuate 900k to southern Africa? Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

answer: they couldnt becuse it would be impossible a more realistic figure would be 200 max becuse with fual souces gone and there would nned space for machinary and crops--Owen1983 17:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I just started with 900k to provoke debate. I agree that it should be smaller, but 200 is a gross underestimation. Your average British ship houses and provides for men in excess of 300. I think the bar should be set about 300k and we can discuss from there. Bob 16:36, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

200 would be about right due to food been rationed and coal or diesel needed to make the journey--Owen1983 13:11, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Even if you can organise an exodus of about 200k brits to southern Africa (use cruiseliners etc. and it goes okey..) what would you do with the problems in te host nation?? food, shelter, public opinion, neigbour states reaction?? As far as imagine 200.000 of mainly white people of the "Empire" -though long gone- nearing the shore of southerm africa...a HUGE conflict potential IMO.--Xi&#39;Reney 00:32, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought we had nixed the whole idea of a coordinated mass evacuation of Britain - a LONG time ago. My main problem: why, why, why, why would they just up and decide to go to South Africa? They had no idea that a pro-British state was taking shape down there! South Africa may have drawn some British refugees, but I personally have huge problems with the idea of a single Moses-style exodus to New Britain. Small numbers of refugees from Britain to SA would probably have landed first at the cape, but would have found their way to New Britain eventually given the anti-White climate in Cape Town. Bob, we have been over this endlessly, month after month after month. Please stop pushing for it. Benkarnell 19:26, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have altered it so its a few thousand. The government and supporting troop as well as bureaucrats and the like. The population of New Britain has increased as Brits from ANZC Celtic Alliance and other places flood into New Britain.
 * The numbers from other parts of the world would be small though. The CA and ANZC are major world powers with a large economies. Would that many people really prefer a small refugee state in chaotic Africa where most of the population is Xhosa or Anglo-African? Mitro 19:13, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe New Britain sets up a major operation to begin moving more people from mainland Britain who don't want to be a part of the Celtic Alliance, Clevelande/Northumberland/Albion, or Bentwater/Woodbridge. With a major waystation in Avalon, Guinea-Bisseau.Oerwinde 20:16, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it would depend whether they thought Bentwaters/Woodbridge would be big enough to worry about Verence71 16:20, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I question the whole operation, I mean, who would want to leave their home they've always known for some seemingly backwards African country that's got an identity crisis when they could have a more stable life where they've always lived. That's my thought. I wouldn't leave my home and move to the opposite ends of the Earth just because they promised to be the "same-old Britain".Louisiannan 22:45, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because your home is now an even more backward and unhealthy place which offers you much less opportunities. New Britain is located in former South Africa, probably the most developed country in pre-DD Sub-Saharian Africa, barely a backward country. Even the Britons would know this fact. Grand Prince Paul II. 22:57, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

this whole situation is conusing. New Britian is part of canon, yet we can't decide how the evacuation that led to its exsistance came about!HAD 10:40, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * So... what's the consensus here? I'm in favor of obsoletizing. This whole idea of an "evacuation" makes no sense whatsoever. Benkarnell 15:58, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

this is the basic idea for a survior society in china-- very open to suggesting at this point.
 * It's wickedly dystopian, along the lines of Thunder Bay and aspects of Superior's history - I like it. I don't know enough about Chinese history or culture to say whether it's a realistic Chinese dystopia, though. It also seems quite large - I'm wary of creating large survivor states in China before we nail down more of its history. Benkarnell 22:11, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

yea, the size kind of bothers me, though its sparcely populated--I think. I'm kind of hoping that this will start chineese history for this TL-- when I went through this site for the first time, the abscence of any information on China after DoomsDay stuck out like a sore thumb. As far as I can tell, China was suprise attacked by the USSR, which caused a total government breakdown. A coastal few towns seem to have survived, as they are mentioned in tiawan's article, but under the impression there is no larger (or at least better) civilization in the interior. Some stuff on the edges has been claimed by the USSR, but they have simply stayed away from going farther south into manchuia--implying it not worth it due to the state of things. China has a history of major Civil wars (all of the most deadly conflicts of the last two hundred years are european conflicts or chinese civil wars), and they have a history of war lords. As for Chinese culture, my idea is that the culture was in flux at that point, and Hong Long (the emperor) got rid of those who opposed it. but I do think it could be smaller are you thinking population (its at about a twentieth or less of what the area would be now) or land holdings?Desert viking 05:33, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess the area: it seems like a really big chunk of China, especially for a monarchist revival like this. Given China's decades without a monarch, and the long ideological purge wrought by the Cultural Revolution, it seems like a would-be monarch would only be able to maintain control of a smaller group). But I'm not dead set against it, and it could work given enough justification. It's a revival of the warlordism of the 1930s, in a way. Did any of those warlords pretend to be "emperors"? What would they be most likely to call themselves in a post-Communist China ruin? Benkarnell 03:37, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The warlord era, at least in the north was fought over who controlled the Beiyang Government. None of the warlords claimed to be Emperor but a lot of them called themselves or were called Marshal something. I would imagine that in a post-Doomsday China the warlords would call themselves Marshals and would all claim to be the legitimate government of the People's Republic Verence71 18:57, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's mostly what I was thinking. We've played with reviving monarchies in various places (Prussia, Luxembourg, New Britain, Orleans), and I've been guilty of it myself (Hawaii, Cocos Islands). But China seems an unlikely place for it to happen, what with the legacy of communism and its impact on the public consciousness. It's for the same reason that we haven't had any monarchies arise in the former USA (except Hawaii, where I honesly believe the restoration was justified, even likely). I like the idea of a Marshall running things in this region. And then I'd be more OK with a largish survivor state in Anhui. Benkarnell 03:15, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

All right, I've changed It to be slightly less monarchal--- it still has the feel, but it avoids the words. However, this means the name of the article would have to change, something I don't know how to do. Right now The best name I can come up with is the "Dragon Lands" which just doesn't sound right. The whole country could be refered to as the Dragon Army, or the article could be rewritten as a post-doomsday history of Anhui. does anyone have any ideas? (I don't really like any of mine so far) Desert viking 17:10, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Selma
My proposal on a survivor community in Selma, Alabama.BrianD 04:03, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Slavery was abolished in 1993... does that mean that Selmans(?) enslaved whites before that? Benkarnell 03:40, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, because the "CSA" was doing it to African-Americans. I'm still working on this idea, so while the idea of a black community (Selma) and white, racist Confederate community will stick, the details will change. There's a lot of anger there over things that happened in the first decade after Doomsday, but potential for Selma to eventually join the "greater community of nations" in the South. Not so much for New Montgomery, whose leaders are bound and determined to resurrect the Confederacy. BrianD 05:41, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Louisiana
My proposal for the known-only-until-now-to-locals state(s) of Louisiana.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Natchez
My proposal for the survivor community of Natchez, Mississippi. Bonus points for the first editor to identify the real-life counterpart to Natchez's mayor.--BrianD 20:01, January 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would that be Campbell Brown of CNN? Is Alma her real first name?  I understand why she avoids it :).  But she won't be the only female HoS in North America, because Lakotah, I believe, has a woman president.  Benkarnell 15:33, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup.--BrianD 15:56, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nanchung
a resilient group of chinese who have built a nation around a leader in resonse to threats from the Dragon Kingdom.Desert viking 00:57, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Parthenopean Republic
So,i've done a new article.For now it's only an idea.If the Second Sicily war gets approved,i think it's pretty much likely to exist.

My article about a small town in Illinois that survived Doomsday. Mitro 00:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

This is one of those general articles. Thoughts and comments welcomed. Mitro 02:56, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm, I think that more needs to be added based on the fruitful discussion we had. Maybe I can do that if I don't find work today (increasingly likely :.  The main thing, to me, is that the term "education" should have a broader scope meaning "teaching children the skills necessary to survive".  Even in some of the largish survivor states, most of that probably occurs outside formal school builings.  "Homeschooling" (probably not the term used) only gets a quick mention near the bottom, whereas it's probably the norm for large numbers of people. Benkarnell

Olmsted
My proposal for a theocratic dictatorship in former Minnesota. --Jnjaycpa 21:02, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

From the short stub, I have doubts that this would happen. However, this free ebook may give you a little insight into the megachurch that has developed out of the former "First Baptist Church there in Rochester, MN. A short history is found at the church's website with a link to a downloadable book.

I picked this church from the ten that google earth brought up because it had no denomination attached to it. It changed its name to Autumn Ridge Church. In order to have a viable "theocratic republic" you have to have a megachurch already established with a near fanatical following. We are trying to deal with the believable rather than the fanciful here. I doubt if a megachurch (especially Baptist) would become an "Old Testament" Church in the way your envision. You might get a "Reformed" Church (that believes in what we call Christian Reconstructionism ) that would set up such a republic, but such churches tend to be small.SouthWriter 00:31, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, stranger things have happened. But it's true that most USAmericans would hold on to at least some of the political ideals they were raised on, freedom of religion first among them. OTOH, a self-governing, autocratic religious community is not at all hard to imagine, especially in a post-apocalyptic world. People gather around a charismatic leader or organization, which slowly increases his/her/its degree of control. There doesn't even need to be an established church before 1983. However, a community of 25,000 seems a tad high for such a community... in a wide-open world like this, it would be fairly easy for the disaffected (i.e. anyone who did not buy into the regime's spiritual claims) to leave for another town. And it seems hard to believe this many people sticking around in a place like this. Then agiain, it is a very different world. I'm on the fence. Benkarnell 00:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Point noted. I'll probably cut it down to about 10K. In my storyline, the Rochester government falls apart and a charismatic preacher joins with a National Guard unit takes over. The city was largly abandond and the people left and the survivors went to the countryside.--Jnjaycpa 01:24, January 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. And I was thinking: if the settlement is prosperous and successful, or at least more so than its neighbors, it may well be fairly big. Some people may well put up with living there if it beats leaving. I was also thinking: I'm surprised we haven't seen more communities like this. Imagine after the collapse of civilization. People would come together to live with others who shared their religious views. Naturally they would govern themselves in a way that we might call a "theocracy". There wouldn't have to be antything insidious or sinister about it - it would just be people regulating their own religious community. The American frontier was filled with settlements like that. If it's a small community where everyone basically holds the same beliefs, it doesn't have to degenerate into an oppressive dicatorship. Problems will only start to arise when the younger generation grows up, and they question the norms and beliefs of the foundrs. Benkarnell 23:22, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I decided to change the name to Christian Republic of Olmsted. --Jnjaycpa 05:50, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

International Falls
My proposal for a survivor community along the U.S.-Canada border in former Minnesota (I had hinted at it in a couple of other places on the Wiki). BrianD 22:09, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

An article based upon the survivor community mentioned in the 2009 WCRB report on the southern United States. --GOPZACK 22:14, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Karelia
A proposal for a survivor nation in the former USSR. --Jnjaycpa 05:11, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Territorially speaking is it based around this part of Russia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia?? Verence71 20:23, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I assume that in a large region between the killzones of Leningrad and Murmansk there would be some survivors. The only question I have is if there are any potential targets in that region.Jnjaycpa 20:48, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

This link might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Military_District Verence71 21:00, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. After a little research I found that there was a minor military airbase in Petrozavodsk, which means it was nuked. For the moment, I'll assume no other nukes fell in that region.Jnjaycpa 01:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

70% or so of the population of Karelia is ethnic Russian so surely Russian would be the main language??

Ethnic Karelians themselves are about 10% of the population so maybe at some point post-Doomsday there could be an armed uprising among them Verence71 16:02, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

I decided to split Karelia into two parts: a Finnish-dominated democratic republic (Republic of Karelia) and a pro-Siberian regime (East Karelia).

According to this scneario, Soviet and Finnish Karelian forces fought in the winter of 1983 (Second Winter War). By spring of 1984, the Finnish Karelians reclaimed most of the territory lost in 1940. In 1988, the Finnish Karelians decide against rejoining Finland, and declare an independent nation, the Republic of Karelia (Karelia). The Soviets retreated and set up the Provisional Soviet Socalist Republic of Russia (East Karelia). By 2010, Karelia will formally join in the Nordic Union, while East Karelia will declare its alligence to Siberia.

Jnjaycpa 02:33, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

I've started a proposal for Soviet Karlia. Jnjaycpa 06:10, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Mexico
My expansion on the already canonized portions of the article on Mexico (aka United Mexican States). I want to keep what has been approved as canon; my proposals would expand on the history of the nation, as well as its culture, government, military, politics, and the influence of American refugees in the nation. --BrianD 18:31, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You might want to talk to JorgeGG. He had some ideas regarding Mexico: User blog:JorgeGG/Mexico (Doomsday:1983) - Some ideas for refactoring.  Mitro 23:52, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Mitro 20:58, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you think the attitude of the different former Commonwealth nations will be? Victoria is still legally a monarchy and would probably welcome this revival.  Fiji seems a likely member as well, and so does the East Caribbean Federation, composed entirely of former Commonwealth members except for the US Virgin Islands.  But what about the major countries, Australia-New Zealand and Canada?  Andrew is clearly the rightful King of all three nations under their pre-Doomsday constitutions; but will they be willing to join an organization headed by New Britain?  It's got a history of belligerence (it still occupies the Xhosa state) and, unfair though it may be, I'll bet that the public in both Canada and ANZ believe that it is an "apartheid country".  (I know that's not true, but it's a very realistic public perception, IMO.)  But a much more serious consideration is that NB is openly and unapologetically Imperialist.  Getting caught up in that sort of thing is exactly what they don't want at a time when both countries are trying to heal their relations with South America.  Benkarnell 15:47, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank/Super. Mitro 20:58, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

I created an infobox for the article to get the ball rolling.

Supersonic91 19:57, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

I started writing this as a companion to the Panama Canal Zone page. My main goal is to show that the Panamanians aren't just helpless victims, but did get around to organizing themselves in several places. I plan on making the political situation as complicated as I can. Simple political solutions have been tried and failed in west Panama, like so many turbulent regions in OTL. Benkarnell 17:43, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Filled in the detail on the major states. It still needs copyediting, and the last section, which deals with the wider geopolitics of the region, is still incomplete.  Benkarnell 20:50, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Tiny state in Lincolnshire. Claims to be the legitimate successor to the UK. Bob 17:34, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Made some changes and added some detail to the history. Since I live in the vicinity of Bourne, I just happen to be the expert on all things Brunnian. It is perfectly placed to take advantage of a nuclear war. And my conversations with my friends and colleagues reaffirms my assumption that the believe in Britain not England. Bob 20:07, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Lincoln, PUS
Here is the preliminary work on the state of Lincoln in the Provisional United States of America.--SouthWriter 01:30, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so simply "Lincoln" will work as a page. I see now that the "other" Lincoln goes by "Republic of Lincoln," being independent as it is. I'm wondering if that Republic will settle for maybe the bottom third of the state (basically, below the Platte River). I've made that suggestion at the Republic of Lincoln talk page.SouthWriter 05:49, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Another PUS state. Mitro 15:39, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Article I made based on discussion. Riley.Konner 07:50, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

The Panama Canal again
I've gone ahead and written up a very long proposal for the Panama Canal. It was a pretty big undertaking (took me a couple of days), because it brings together some major events in the history of South America, Australia-New Zealand, the USSR, even France. It mostly drew on Lahbas' ideas: XiReney and I both argued for a different course, but Lahbas was so damn convincing... This hopefully won't contradict a whole lot of canon material. Darien and Costa Rica, yes, but I wrote those pages and am willing to change them if this gets accepted. The biggest change is that the USS Benjamin Franklin sailed around Cape Horn instead of through the Canal... that may push some things back by a couple of months but otherwise should leave the timeline intact. Read and comment please (please!). Benkarnell 05:44, January 31, 2010 (UTC)