Talk:Virginia (1983: Doomsday)

Archive

new flag
how about the current flag woith the confederate bit removed: a white two thirds and a single red stripe? --HAD 11:11, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

tanks and guns
Would I be correct in assuming that Virginia operates other tanks? like M60A3's, for example? and other guns, like the M16? --HAD 11:11, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and they have as many as the local National Guard/Army armories and motorpools would have. This is true, but the weapons of post-DD manufacture, like the Thompson tank and the many "new and improved" versions of the Thompson submachine gun are what the Virginians are focused on. And isen't the M16, or one simmilar to it, the overall terrible assault rifle with the fragile plastic stock and screwy aiming mechanism? If it is then the militaristic Virginians would not even consider using it. --Yankovic270 15:24, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

it's not that bad. they improved the design after the Vietnam war ended.--HAD 16:16, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

But if you are going to judge an assault rife on quality, then the AK-47 and its decendants win hands down. It is reliable, easy to manufacture, and its simplistic design makes it very reliable. In fact it is such a goood weapon that I will give it only to Viginia's elite.That is if the can overcome the anti-Soviet bias created by the Cold War. --Yankovic270 23:59, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

i would think the AK-47 would equip all the militray. --HAD 15:41, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I live in Virginia, and most gun owners, veterans or not, own an M-14. Plus there was a Springfield Armoury factory still making them in Winchester until it got shut down in 1987. Plus, what you said about the Thompson being cheap to produce is bull$hit, the gun was the equivalant of a very inaccurate MP-7 using solid steel for a operating mechanism. (as in costing the equivalant of an MP-7, certainly not as effective.) Also, Tommy guns are horribly inaccurate after 40 yards, a .45 is crazy to handle, escpecially at full auto. I've fired one at semi, and I had bruises for the nxt week. And I fire AR-15's and, occasionally, an M-1. BoredMatt 00:24, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

?
what on earth is up with the new flag? why was it changed? --HAD 15:41, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Someone asked me politely to replace the flag I had previously. Since I can't draw to save my life, I decided to have a contest where people submit flag designs, and people voted on them. The current flag design won, and what is the point of having a contest if you are just going to disregard the results?

Simply put: Had a vote. New flag won. End of Story.

--Yankovic270 16:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

i won't argue with democracy. i had a break over christmas, so i caan't complain. --HAD 19:10, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

also: differtent pages show different flags to that of virginia. this needs adressing. --HAD 12:08, January 3, 2010 (UTC)

Lee Whiskey Company
I assume 25 million employees in a nation of 1.5 million is a typo. If this is a large alcohol conglomerate with worldwide sales(which I doubt as Virginia has yet to secure a port), and multiple brands then I could accept 2500 employees. (Diageo, which OTL owns Guinness, Crown Royal, Johnny Walker, Smirnoff, etc. has 22k employees)

Other Languages
Under "Other Languages," when it says "Indian," does that mean East Indian or Native Amerindian?

Nyssa sylvatica 20:48, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Americana (?) Games
Why would the American survivor states use the latinized form "Americana" for Regional Olympic Games? I would think that it would be simply "American" as in the "English" language spoken by most nations that will be participating.SouthWriter 16:02, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe North American Games? "American" could either mean "USA" or "The Americas", and neither one is accurate. Benkarnell 18:22, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yank explained on my user talk page. Americana is analogous to Europa -- and the invitations seem to be going out to former USA states. But I think the Canadian states will be probably be included as well (though with the war going on up there, maybe not). Though the Virginian leader appears to consider the efforts of the CRUSA to be hopeless, it appears that they are still "patriotic" enough there to want to use the Games as a uniting -- in spirit anyway -- force for the continent.SouthWriter 00:52, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Targets in West Virginia
We have assumed since this article has been created that there have been no targets in West Virginia. However there are two potential targets that should be considered. First off the The Greenbrier hotel near White Sulphur Springs housed a bunker for the US Congress in case of nuclear war. Now public knowledge of this bunker did not come until the 1990s, but I am curious about whether the Soviets would now about it.

Also there are the steel manufacturing plants in the WV panhandle. There is an old Nike missile site near my neighborhood that was used to protect the steal mills of Chicago and northern Indiana from Soviet bombers. I think its likely that the Soviets would target the mills in West Virginia, unless they are a smaller number of them than I thought.

I don't believe the canon history of the Virginia Republic would be changed by these places being nuked. Mitro 20:22, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Greenbrier is listed in the 1983:DD Timeline as the place where Bush was taken to after the attacks. If the hotel was nuked, then it probably wouldn't affect Virginia very much, but that portion of the timeline, and the GHW Bush article, would have to be revised.BrianD 21:50, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, good point. Yeah I had my doubts about whether it would be a target since the world did not know about until after our POD, so scratch that. What about the other target? Mitro 21:52, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never looked that closely into it, though the FEMA maps had the region being nuked. I've long assumed Wheeling as a target. Your idea makes sense. I also wouldn't put it past the Virginian government that Yank has established to try to get those things rebuilt one way or another. BrianD 22:01, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Path to Charleston
I was thinking - again - about the dear 101st and its march to the hills. I thought at first that the path would be along the Tennessee line, but tracing that path passed only small towns outside the debris fields of the surrounding blast sites. These places, in the short time that the troops took before picking up camp - lock, stock and barrol - and heading east, did not offer much in the way of resources. As such, perhaps they were passed up except to search abandoned towns for supplies. However, I can think of a more practical, and a bit more "ethical" one.

The first place the general would head would be the nearest large town in Kentucky -- Elizabethtown. Finding it abandoned, and covered in debris from the blast in Louisville, he would have then went to the state capital of Frankfort. Though that town was still standing after the blast, the chaos of the refugees had led to a collapse of the state's government. Rather than seek to establish order in this state capital, Thompson decided to see if conditions were better in the next state over, finally ended his march in Charleston. The state government there had also collapsed, but the town was not covered in radioactive fallout. And so, with some hard work, the Virginian Republic was born.

SouthWriter 05:18, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * The 101st Airborne was based in Fort Campbell, which of course is located in the Hopkinsville, Ky./Clarksville, Tenn. border. The nearest "large town" in fact is not Elizabethtown, which would be two hours away, but Bowling Green, which is much, much closer to Fort Campbell...and, anyway, it is already canon that Elizabethtown survived (as Fort Knox was not hit). E'town is west of Louisville, and far enough away that it shouldn't get hit by debris from the nearest probable air burst - over the Ford plant in south Louisville. BrianD 11:58, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * These "air bursts" are nuclear blasts, presumedly, that destroy everything within the 10 miles, and then about half of everything between 10 and 25 miles, and then another 25% of that which is up to about 35 miles out. Elizabethtown and Ft. Knox are both in that outter circle of the bombs the WCRB report says werre dropped. These places survived, but not without damage. Either that, or the bombs were of smaller yield than would be expected.


 * As for Bowling Green, it is indeed closer -- and on the way to Frankfort. I missed it. The question then arises, what did Thompson do there? Or did he completely avoind all Kentucky towns hoping that he had a better chance there? Was he from West Virgina and wanted to go back there? (No allusion to the song, it just came out!) I was assuming a noble intent for the general from the beginning. The idea that he would seek out the state capital first just seemed right.SouthWriter 15:27, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the 101st might have forsaken contact with any inhabited town. I am quite sure that the 101st would have plentiful experience in foraging, as by nature they needed to parachute behind enemy lines. They might have foraged in abandoned towns though.

Yankovic270 16:37, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm wondering, though, what made Thompson - not to mention the whole 101st (assuming any discussion was made) - go all the way to West Virgina. The rednecks and family feuds there must have been just as bad or worse than those in Kentucky. Was he assuming fewer hits as he got closer to the vastly more populated east coast?


 * And Brian, Elizabeth town is south, not west of Louisville. It is even closer to the blast if it were in the southern part of Louisville. Either way, it would not escape unscathed. The debris I mentioned is not from Louisville, but actual damage caused on the outter edge of the shock wave and fireball. At 28 to 30 miles, Elizabethtown could expect at least 10% of it's structures to be damaged in some way. The winds caused by the partial vacuum that forms the "mushroom" cloud, could also have done some damage.SouthWriter 18:15, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

I had placed the nation in the Kentucky-West Virginia area because it was in a relatively impact-free zone. When I heard that the Kentucky area was too chaotic for the nation to be there I simply replanted it in West Virginia. Wouldn't a Major General understand that there are few, if not zero, targets in the state worth a red ICBM? Besides they could have just picked a direction and started marching. Either way you still end up with the large and relatively prosperous Virginian Republic.

Yankovic270 19:46, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Southwest, SouthWriter - I know the area well. I'm sure there was a bomb in the Soviet arsenal that could have detonated over the airport (which is very close to the Ford plant I'm referring to) and caused major damage in E'town....but the questions you need to ask yourself, that each of us needs to ask, is when you pick targets, how big of a bomb do you want to assume for each target, and would each target have been hit with the same type of yield? Would the Ford plant/airport explosion (which was assumed in a Courier-Journal Magazine article from the 1980s which unfortunately is not available online) have been powerful enough to take out Fort Knox AND Elizabethtown? I say no. BrianD 19:56, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * When finding out that the soviet plan was to launch two 500 kiloton bombs on Vienna, with single 500kt strikes on Munich, Verona, etc. I've been assuming 500kt is the standard yield for soviet strikes, with major targets getting multiple.Oerwinde 20:07, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, cities like Vienna and Munich would probably get a single SS-20 IRBM each, with 3*150KT warheads, whereas somewhere like New York City would have been hit by at least one SS-18 ICBM, carring 10 0.8MT (800KT) warheads. If you read one of the news articles, i think it states that NYC got 20 hits (warheads not missiles: REMEMBER MIRVs!) Ramdominsanity 20:19, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * All I know is that soviet documents released had Vienna targeted by two 500kt strikes and the others mentioned were targeted by one. I don't know what missiles those would be as I don't know much about the technology.Oerwinde 20:33, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

J. H. Binford Peay III
Here is the pertinent paragraph from the article on the General from Wikipedia:

After serving with the Army Military Personnel Center in Washington, D.C., as a Field Artillery branch assignments officer, Peay was sent to Hawaii in 1975 to command the 2d Battalion, 11th Field Artillery, 25th Infantry Division. Following completion of the Army War College, he returned to Washington, D.C., as Senior Aide to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and later as Chief of the Army Initiatives Group in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operation and Plans. He then moved to Fort Lewis, Washington, to serve as the I Corps’ Assistant Chief of Staff, G-3/Director of Plans and Training, and later became Commander, 9th Infantry Division Artillery. In 1985, he returned to Washington, D.C., as Executive to the Chief of Staff, United States Army. He first became a "Screaming Eagle" in July 1987, when he became the Assistant Division Commander (Operations), 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Beginning in July 1988, he served a one year assignment as Deputy Commandant, Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.


 * I haven't read the articles about the west coast lately, so I don't know if Fort Lewis was directly hit. I know that Seattle was a target, and that is about 35 miles away. Best case, I guess, would be if Peay showed unusual valor in the securing of order in western Washington, and ending up in Charleston, Virginian Republic, as a result. I won't spoil it for you, Yank, I know you can figure something out. SouthWriter 04:02, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fort Lewis got hit, but was centered more on McChord AFB, in order to take out part of Tacoma as well. So if he was closer to Olympia then he could have survived. Oerwinde 04:25, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Any bomb centered over McChord would take out Fort Lewis as much as it would "part of" Tacoma. If the explosion was designed to take out both McChord and much of Tocoma, it would have been centered over the area between them. If this was the case, then Fort Lewis would have survived, though not unscathed. This assumes a 1.4 mt airburst. The bigger explosions I've been using to produce the assumed mass destruction would have left nothing of the area between Tacoma and Olympia.SouthWriter 05:00, March 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well since canon has Tacoma being hit, and McChord being the major strategic hit, then it likely would have been centered between the two then. Leaving Fort Lewis beat up, but not destroyed. So its possible he survives, but figuring out how he gets to Virginia is another story.Oerwinde 18:59, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

As I asked on another talkpage, were there any military bigwigs in West Virginia or the surrounding states who could have survived DD?

Yankovic270 19:27, March 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry Yank, I did a preliminary search and came up dry. SouthWriter 20:20, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible that Peay ended up the leader of a survivor state in Washington or Oregon?

Yankovic270 19:28, March 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * If Peay survived, he may have made it over to the Pasco Free State. And who knows, by 2000 or so he may have got wind of the operations in Virginia. You might still get him over there in time to take over for Thompson. SouthWriter 20:20, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * He may have been working for the state government in Olympia before attempting to make his way back to his hometown in Virginia.Oerwinde 20:30, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

How about I create a new article for the Gneral? I have no interest in trying to shoehorn the General's backstory into the Virginia Article. We need more articles about the people of 1983: Doomsday anyway.

Yankovic270 21:18, March 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I look forward to it. Have any of you checked out the article I wrote on Samantha Smith?

Hopewell
I don't think the article should have been retconned to add Hopewell as a major port. I think Virginia establishing its presence in Hopewell should be a major news item, and something that happened recently, with the port expansion and a highway and railway project connecting the new port to the more established areas of the republic being the top priorities of the government at this point. This is a live timeline, you don't have to have every major event happen in the past, and Virginia was already established as landlocked at this point.Oerwinde 08:18, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

General Sumrall
I did a search for General Sumrall and found that he was stationed as Air Defense Missile Maintenance Officer in Opelika, Alabama, in 1983. Opelika is a "twin city" to Auburn, where the provisional government rose and fell in 1984. By that time, in OTL Sumrall had been assigned as Chief of the Administration of a Military Hospital in Birmingham. Since in TTL Birmingham was nuked, I'd say the General would have been making a name for himself in helping the refugees in a similar way in an intact facility somewhere in Alabama near Auburn. After that, in OTL he ended up at Ft. Lee in Virginia in August of 1985. In TTL that is probably where he came under the influence of the Thompson Regime.

At least that is the way I see it. SouthWriter 14:54, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Issues
Okay, let me get this straight:

''Richmond, the capital of the "Government State", was not nuked. Rather than confederate with West Virginia, it collapsed and has since been rebuilt.''

Cars, vehicles that require parts from dozens of lands over, are now being manufactured as a "work of art".

The Dixie Alliance, mainly a Virginian vehicle of power, is now in North Georgia, a nation that is hundreds and hundreds of kilometers away.

The 101st Airborne solely managed to secure nearly an entire state, and at least half of three other states.

''It controls parts of Kentucky, a state home to a stable nation. (You brought this one up with Zack, so I'm assuming he let you take half of the state.)''

As I recently read on an talk page, it has "one of the best equipped militaries in the world".

It possibly has relations with Macedonia, a country isolated in Eastern Europe.

The populace was somewhat content, or at least managed to deal with a military dictatorship for some years.

''While nations all over North America waited for the return of good ol' America, the Virginians gave the US and the CRUSA the "finger". American soldiers, thought of the nation as "dead and never coming back" when a downsized version of it existed in the Great Plains.''

Now why would this crap happen?

Now Yank, don't take this personal. We all have to edit our flaws. I have, Zack has, South has, Oer has, Mitro has, Sunkist has, and everyone else on the TL has. You just have to know when something is plausible or not. I have had to go into multiple hours of research to save my articles, and made the changes needed to be changed. So let's just iron this stuff out, shall we? It may take a while, and you may not like the results, but that is called plausibilty. Arstarpool 04:28, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Why would West Virginia allow "Dixie" to be its national anthem.. West Virginia has deep roots to the North, and if Charleston lived, why couldent the state keep its flag and culture?--Sunkist- 09:07, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree...read the section below and comment.

Serious Changes
This article needs change, badly. It went from only controlling the panhandle of Virginia and all of West Virginia, to most of Virginia, parts of Pennsylvania, alot of Ohio, and having "puppets" all across the East Coast

Yank, coming from somebody who has deep roots in the US military, the 101st Airborne isn't some elite squadron. It is an air assault operation branch of the US Army. Let's say with even 1,000 soldiers, the conditions of lack of food, fallout, and violence, by the time they were in Charlston, they would be few in number. And the militia you talked about is very wishful thinking.

The BIGGEST problem with the article is that Richmond would have been nuked. It is a secondary target, and if the Soviets sent any missiles heading towards DC, I'm sure at least one missile would be headed towards Richmond. So no "New Richmond".

Why would they want "East Virginia", anyways? West Virginia is one of the rural, northern states while Virginia has a completely different culture! I think they should, at best, control the pan-handle of Virginia.

So here is a very different version of the VR's history that would be more plausible:

The state government survives in WV. However, their control over the rest of the state is reduced to the area around of the capital. With the help of the 101st Airborne, they establish more and more control in the ruins of WV. By the end of the decade, they control the entire state once more. They also annex a smaller part of Kentucky at this time and the Maryland Panhandle

By 1990, they annex the panhandle of Virginia since the area was in dire need. They also annex small parts of Ohio.

In 1992, with no word from the US government for some time now, they establish the Republic of Virginia, the Virginian Republic, the Commonwealth of (West) Virginia (the original name of the state), or whatever else suits you.

What does this mean?


 * No port. Sorry, but Delmarva controls almost all of the coastal waters.


 * Smaller sphere of control. This would actually be a good thing, since they would learn to use what they have and would prosper better.


 * No tanks. Sorry, but an American survivior nation would not be making tanks if even the ANZC was not making them. Plus, you need parts from all over. They could quite possibly make a "mini-tank", which would resemble the skeleton of a car modified to shoot explosives the size of handgrenades.


 * NO MILITARY DICTATORSHIP. If the state government survives, the military within the government would be a close relationship at best However, they could resemble a Stratocracy.


 * The military of Virginia would NOT be the "best equipped in North America, or the world".

Here is a map on what the slightly smaller Virginia would look like:

I think the major issue with the Virginian Republic is that there was only a single target in West Virginia according to the survivalring site, the Greenbriar resort. Which A) Conflicts with the Canon of the ANZC and the USA, and B)Means the entire state of West Virginia is for the most part untouched. Changing the Virginian republic at this point would affect a whole lot of stuff.Oerwinde 18:08, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

And how about Richmond? Arstarpool 18:11, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Richmond isn't in West Virginia.Oerwinde 18:17, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I know, but he claims it was not hit. Arstarpool 23:19, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Also, if Greenbrier and Wheeling were the only targets in WV, as Yank attests, then wouldn't the state government be more-or-less intact? And why would they bow to the 101st, especially if we're assuming that most of the civilian law enforcement, local and state government, and NG bases still exist and function(Because of that, and the typically law-abiding nature of West Virginians, I doubt there would be any major warlords or biker gangs, etc)? Nobody is especially partial to the idea of a military dictatorship, especially if they aren't part of said dictatorship. Even more, what makes you think that the 101st are just going to follow Thompson like a bunch of trained gorrillas. If Thompson is smart enough to take WV and most of VA, then wouldn't it make sense for him to join up with civilian law enforcement and state government? As any major population areas would have been nuked to kingdom come, refugees wouldn't be a major problem, and with radiation sickness, hunger, crime, unsanitary conditions, etc. (as well as the distance between WV and any major population centers), would eliminate most, if not all, "foriegn" gangs and "refugee armies" that would probably be the only other reason why any sane WV'er would peacefully accept a military government acting outside of the constitution.

Then we get to the occupation of "East Virginia". It seems highly unlikely to me that the Shanandoah Valley and parts east and south would not have developed a unified government, or at the least several peaceful governments. Again, for reasons previously explained, there wouldn't be much refugees in the area, so they would be pretty well set. I doubt they would willingly join up with WV, (though SW virginia might be the exception).

BoredMatt 21:06, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

And h

and h? BoredMatt 23:48, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

So are we saying that Charleston is living, if so then this entire page needs to be re-done .-

I almost want to say leave this one be, since it has been canon for so long, but it sets a dangerous precedent.Oerwinde 09:06, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Unless Yank really objects,then yes, this page needs rethinking. If Charleston  did survive, then I highly doubt that the state and local governments and their respective law enforcement units, as well as WV NG, would bow to the 101st without a fight. Even more to the point........The 101st was on full division deployment with the Multinational Fotce Observers.......in the Sinai. From 1980 to at least 1985, (according to Wikipedia, that is. I couldn't find any more links refering to the op.) the 101st was conducting Operation Bright Star (trying to make sure another war on Israel didn't happen).

Here's the link, it's near the bottom of the Post-Veitnam section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101st_Airborne_Division#Post-Vietnam

BoredMatt 12:41, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

They only deployed to Egypt in 1980 - they did not stay there afterwards. The Observers in the Sinai, if you had bothered to look, is a tiny force, with members on rotation. There wouldn't have been more than like 500 members of the 101st there, if any at DD. You can only assume from that article that it is unknown where they were.

According to the 101st web site, only "elements" of the 101st were on duty in the Sinai. which, if you look at the numbers on the observers wiki bit, wouldn't mean more than like 500 at a time.

Note, I think parts of this due need to be changed - but, I cant stand to see someone doing research like that, and base it on WIKIPEDIA, yet.

Lordganon 13:59, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, but the Virginian Republic has been part of tolerated canon for quite some time. I obect to every change you "suggest" (more like demand). I will not change the government, as I think the military dictatorship is what makes Virginia Virginia. This is my "flagship" article, and while I take suggestions (more politely given than yours were) on my other articles, I will not tolerate substantial changes to the Virginian Republic. I specifically chose Hopewell because it was outside the Delmarva zone of control in Virginia (as if they didn't have too much already). Why is it that no matter what I do some user steps out of the shadows to attack Virginia. Can't you just leave it (and me) alone for once and get back to your own damn business. Yankovic270 15:59, July 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Oerwinde, I don't want to radically change this article but it does set a very dangerous precedent. I'm sure there is a comprise to be found somewhere in here. Right now me & Arstar are tied up in the mediation of the SNU but when that is set & done (which should be soon) I'll work to mediate a solution here as well. GOPZACK 16:45, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * A way that could possibly work would be Thompson and the 101st hooking up with the civilian government, and Thompson seizing power through propaganda and charisma, similarly to Hitler or Palpatine, only through what he sees as necessity rather than seeking personal power.Oerwinde 19:44, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, it seems I caught you in a Star Was reference, haven't I, Oer?
 * But I guess he could be like Palpatine since as I can recall Palpatine manipulated the Senate and other high officials to promote his own motives, so I guess Thompson would do the same thing to the State government, although I doubt that Thompson would go as far to overthrow the state government and impose Imperial rule... Arstarpool 01:24, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * He'll give the emergency powers right back once the crisis is averted.Oerwinde 09:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * He'll give the emergency powers right back once the crisis is averted.Oerwinde 09:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Exactlly. I have pictured Thomson as a George Washingon-type, someone who does what he does because he believes it is the best for the country. Besides, he stepped down like a year ago. The current President-General is Sumrall.

Yankovic270 12:01, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to what we read in the school books, George Washington was not as avid in the "what's best for the country" business as we portray him. Arstarpool 02:26, July 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, Yank, these young fellows certainly took you to task. I tried to warn you back when I first joined (VR was already canon and these new members had had no imput apparently) that a lot of this was unreasonable. But the most I got was a concession that the wrong picture was up for Thompson. Anyway, a whole lot of this time line is unrealistic - to pessimistic for my taste, but I'm learning to live with that - with 25 years before the Southern Hemisphere even begins to explore the interior of the US. I am sure that Arstar will start to pick on Piedmont if we give him time, and I hope that I can take the criticism half as well as I have given it to his articles!


 * BTW, my truely deep south roots will not allow the VR of TTL to mess with the city-states of the deep south. If you need help in re-writing the article to a more realistic Virginian Republic, let me know. I don't think very many other nation-states are actually that much affected by VR in their essensial nature. If QSS is shown to be unsustainable, then I think the rest of us can work around references to the VR. SouthWriter 17:38, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I undid Arstarpool's recent excision of Richmond from your article. However, I think you had better go over your rationale for keeping the old capital - or rather rebuilding it.  The coastal plain may be out of the reach of the VR for all practical purposes.  It would be a lot better if the VR and Delmarva worked together in international co-operation than to fight over that land.  The VR, after all, was founded by a band of federal troops from the Tennessee-Kentucky line up in Charleston.  All that territory is landlocked.  The nation-states of E. Tenn, Blue Ridge, and Piedmont are landlocked as well, and they don't go taking land just for a sea port!  Think these things through, Yank. SouthWriter 02:06, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I undid Arstarpool's recent excision of Richmond from your article. However, I think you had better go over your rationale for keeping the old capital - or rather rebuilding it.  The coastal plain may be out of the reach of the VR for all practical purposes.  It would be a lot better if the VR and Delmarva worked together in international co-operation than to fight over that land.  The VR, after all, was founded by a band of federal troops from the Tennessee-Kentucky line up in Charleston.  All that territory is landlocked.  The nation-states of E. Tenn, Blue Ridge, and Piedmont are landlocked as well, and they don't go taking land just for a sea port!  Think these things through, Yank. SouthWriter 02:06, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

WV is NOT a Southern State in terms of Culture
Why do you portray the West Virginians as being some southern rednecks? "Dixie" as the national anthem? What do you think this is, rural Alabama? Sic semper tyrannus is a very, well southern thing, a state that West Virginia, and Virginia for that matter, are NOT.

And why would they go with the "Dixie" Alliance, a Deep South word? Why just not the East Coast Alliance or something?

And why do they have the CONFEDERATE JACK and the CONFEDERATE SEAL for their flag and COA respectively? The Confederate seal? Arstarpool 02:26, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Answer #1 : The National Anthem could have been changed to that to appease the more "Southern" residents of Virginia (East Virginia, Cumberland and Maryland)

Answer #2 : I would change it, but it'd be too much of a hassle. I got a monstrous headache trying to change the refrences of Rockefeller to Peay and then Sumrall.

Answer #3 : My request for altering the current flag included reversing the colour of the blue cross to represent Virginia going against the rascist values of the Confederacy. Besides the state flag is probbably the most unimaginative flag design ever. It's just the state seal on a blank blue background. That would still be the flag of the state of Virginia, just not the national government. The Confederate seal has an image on it that no-one, northerner or southerner can object to. George Washington on horseback! Remember he was "first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen."

Yankovic270 03:15, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yank, my Canadian friend, I have lived in Virginia and Maryland and they are not the way you portray them. You act like the states that were in the Confederary are the staple image "Southerners" with the funny accent and the hatred for blacks. The Upper South has been completely Northenized as you may call it. The last true remaining "Redneck" states are Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, and South Carolina. As for Maryland, they stayed in the Union! Regardless of the Census Bureau marking them as the south! To be honest the only place where the Southerner stereotype may be found is in Virginia's Kentucky.

It's not like you are going to go to the South and hear every one listing to Johnny Cash or some other hillbilly shit music and talking with there "yeehaw" accent. Mostly in the Deep South States of Alabama and Mississippi is where you will find this stereotype.

With your permission, I will make a new COA for Virginia which is pretty much the existing one without the Confederacy symbol.

If you want, I will change EVERY instance of the Dixie Alliance to whatever new name you please. It kind of bugs me that someone classifies West Virginia and Maryland as Dixie states when in fact they are quite different states. Arstarpool 04:23, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * If I may make one brief statement here I would like to remind or perhaps inform some of you that West Virginia was created because they did not want to join Virginia in seceding from the Union so they left the state of Virginia to form OTL West Virginia. GOPZACK 05:26, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Uhhhh.. I currently live in Virginia. Virginia is most definately Southern (with the exception of N.VA and Norfolk, both of whch were destroyed). WV is culturally Southern, if not ideologically. BoredMatt 14:52, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I was attempting to form a connection to the unique culture of the south, not the abject rascism. Officially Dixie wasn't the Confederate Anthem, as the Confederacy didn't exist long enough to have one. I chose it because it represents the southern culthure, which West Virginia is still a part of. The Mason-Dixon line is there for a reason.

Yankovic270 15:32, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Richmond
The idea of the Virginians spending money to rebuild a nuked city is implausible to the extreme. Yank, you really need to reconsider this obsession you have with Richmond. Mitro 17:49, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

considering the fact that it was a secondary target, and not a primary target, it was probably only struck once. And as we all know, radiation doesn't last forever. Every single one of the targets with a single impact (Such as Cleveland) have slowly became inhabitable over the years. And as long as there are any usable buildings, the Virginians aren't going to let them go to waste.

Yankovic270 20:50, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * A tertiary target will be hit once, a secondary target can receive more nukes. Furthermore, what usable buildings, they were nuked. The cost of rebuilding a nuked city is not cost productive. The Virginians can spend there money on a lot more pressing things than a single Virginian city that the people of this Republic, who are West Virginians, would have no interest in. Mitro 21:50, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Here's my way of looking at the target system of Doomsday. Don't forget that Doomsday is less of a nuclear war and more of a nuclear skirmish. It was a sudden spasm of conflict that lasted a few hours at most. Here's what I think would happen (strike-wise): Yankovic270 23:37, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Primary Targets- Multiple strikes (they were the most important cities (Washington, New York, London, Moscow))
 * Secondary targets- Single strike (the primary targets were the greater priority (Las Vegas, Columbus, Richmond))
 * Tertiary targets- No strikes (Both sides didn't have enough time to strike them (Charleston, Phoenix, Augusta, Bangor))
 * That is an incorrect interpretation of nuclear war. Even a full nuclear war would be short. Furthermore the Soviet Union has always supported an all out strike if they were attacked first. Also we are talking about a lot of nuclear weapons. In 1985, the Soviet Union had around 45,000 nuclear weapons. Even factoring in the double strikes on primary targets, there would be thousands of missiles left for other targets. Vlad has even written that Socialist Siberia only has a few hundred nuclear weapons left. Mitro 00:04, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * None of us "know" exactly what a nuclear war would be like for sure. The FEMA lists are a just a guide and not Canon. Generally most of the primary targets were hit. (MT Weather is one of the few primary targets that was not hit.) 75% of the Secondary targets were hit & roughly less then 50% of the tertiary were hit.


 * Remember Mitro, the USSR had to also bomb targets in Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Oceania so that took a away from the number that hit the US. Some missiles (and yes I know its cliche) did malfunction or out right miss their targets. Finally some targets were hit more then twice like D.C, Los Angles and New York City.


 * Lastly I agree with Mitro, rebuilding Richmond is a waste of time, money and resources at least for now. --GOPZACK 00:32, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Virginian Idol
How does everyone feel about a popular Virginian television show aptly name Virginian Idol?

Yankovic270 21:04, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the show's name, Yank. Though they have a film industry, "Idol" just doesn't sound right for 83DD.  The whole culture there gravitates against the idea of a competition to build the "support" of anyone not military.  A nationwide talent show, televised by the recording industry, might catch on, though.  Perhaps "Virginia's Got Talent!" would work better in such a culture. SouthWriter 22:13, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Virginian Ambassdaor
East Britain welcomes the Virginian ambassador with open arms. Interesting though. Virginia was one of the first colonies of Britain and here they come back, the first non-British nation to establish friendly relations. East Britain has a population problem. And its the reverse of the norm. There aren't enough people. So if you want to send any convicts over here, we'd be more than happy. Bob 11:42, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Though I'd be happy to send convicts to East Britain, I think there's a problem with that proposal. If you read the Virginian Republic article, you'd see that the Virginian Republic uses harsh punishments to deter future criminals. The few criminals Virginia have are destined to die in creative ways. And it's becoming very unlikely that they are going to get many more. I have a counter-offer. How about the Virginians send send groups of soldiers and their families. They'd serve a double perpose. They would both boost East Britain's Army and, when they have completed their tours of duty, they would boost your population. How do you like that idea?

Yankovic270 16:49, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a brilliant idea, though since it seems this whole Celtic Alliance blockade thing was a joke, do our new diplomatic arrangements still stand? Bob 12:52, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Are we going to do this, or what? Bob 12:14, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yes we are. If you didn't know, the Virginian Republic article still has the ambassador part.

Yankovic270 14:32, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

I had another thought. East Britain is appallingly weak, industrially, so Virginias coal would be more than welcome. Bob 12:14, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I doubt that importing coal from that far away would be necessary. Both Cleveland and Lancaster have active coal fields and are producing enough for export, which would be a lot cheaper then coal from the other side of the Atlantic.Tessitore 15:20, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

In Creation?
Surely this is finished by now? HAD 15:54, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

I put the "In Creation" template on th article so I had a way to monitor the tslkpage. A canon article has no way to check the talkpage. We need to fix that.

Yankovic270 16:34, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I would also rename the page to Republic of Virginia, to reflect the country's official name change. BrianD 16:36, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't tell me the Army where's a blue uniform whilst on operations!HAD 23:10, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Film industry
Do you think that the film "The Terminator" still coulda been made?

Where were Arnold and Linda Hamilton circa 1983?

Also the dude who played Kyle Reese? You can't have "Terminator" without him.

Thanx buddy. (Althistoryluver99 23:18, September 28, 2010 (UTC))

The script for the movie does not seem to have been finalized until 1984, so I'd go with no.

Arnie lived in Southern California - the LA region - so he's gone.

Hamilton, like most actors and actresses, was likely in LA too. Otherwise, she would have been in New York or Salisbury, Maryland - and Maryland is highly unlikely. Pretty well guaranteed dead too.

The guy who played Reese - Michael Biehn - lived in Hollywood, so he's dead too.

Lordganon 00:32, September 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * If the script was not finalized until 1984, that means it was practically done by mid 1983. If a copy was floating around - editors, co-writers, etc. - it could be finished and ready to work on when various film makers began working again. I'd figure it would be done in Australia or New Zealand anyway, Or perhaps Victoria. In fact a lot of sci-fi stuff was/is done in British Columbia in OTL.


 * As far as the actors - it would depend on what they were working on at the time. Just living in southern California doesn't mean they'd be there. It would take a little more research, but I'm sure some film buff out there could track it down. SouthWriter 03:13, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Saguenay War
Yank, I changed what you wrote on the Saguenay War page, the part that stated that they would have ended the war whenever an offer was sent. While you may think the army of Virginia is highly professional, remember they are going against the successor of NATO - The ADC, which has the support of the ANZC. They would not only lose support and trade from the European nations but they wouldn't just march in there and annihilate the Canadians. In my opinion if Virginia came in the ADC would most likely gather more support from the rest of the ADC and you would just have full scale war in Canada, and at the end your forces would just get massacred. Not all of the troops would be massacred, obviously, they might score some key wins but the Virginians would be taught a lesson that they are not invincible and would then lose relations from much of Europe. Also if you tried to send troops to Saguenay the United Communities would send them back home or and then pretty much blockade the entire St. Lawrence River to just make things difficult for everyone in the war.

Also let me ask why is Virginia against Canada in the first place? Arstar [talk] 03:51, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

My big thing with what the Virginians said was if the Virginians were attacked, had part of their land stolen, then were offered a peace deal with incredibly lopsided terms before they had a chance to mount a counteroffensive there is no way the Virginians would be like "Oh yeah, anything for peace". --Oerwinde 05:39, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

"East" Virginia
To my right is the current map showing the members of the EAA. As you can see the Virginia Republic only controls portions of the state of Virginia and has no territory on the coast.

Also to my right is a picture of the current world map. As you can see the Virginia Republic is contained in the interior of the country with no access to the Atlantic Ocean. In fact it appears that Delmarva controls most of the coast of the state of Virginia.

Finally I have attached the map that appears on the article. Again we see that the Virginia Republic has no territory on the coast.

Yank, I posted all of these maps to prove my point that the Atlantic Ocean is not directly east of the Virginia Republic, that is canon. Most of the former state of Virginia is actually east of the Virginian Republic. This nation might claim the entire state, but it hardly controls it. I will be reverting back to my edits again. I hope that this will end our dispute. Mitro 18:57, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, Virginia controls enough territory in Virginia to control the port of Hopewell.

Yank 19:21, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

I thought Mitro or Oer suggested Hopewell after they opposed the rebuilding of Norfolk. But I may be mistaken. --Zack 19:26, October 25, 2010 (UTC) Also there is no "official" map for Virginia's page which has been a bit of an inconvenience and may have lead to some of this confusion. --Zack 19:29, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Its implausible for the VR to control so much territory in Virginia and goes against the accepted canon for the region. Only a year ago (in real time) the VR was accepted into canon as only control small portions of Virginia. So that means the VR has had a year to civilize and build up the entire state of Virginia that allows them to operate a port. Such speed is implausible.
 * I don't know much about this port at Hopewell, but looking at the map of Delmarva the town is pretty close to the strikes on Richmond and Newport News. I'm curious about how damaged it would be post-Doomsday. Mitro 19:39, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopewell is on the River, 18 miles down stream from Richmond, and 50 miles up stream from Newport News. We have gone along with Yank and now he is taking advantage of Arastar's takeover of Indiana from Sunkist to resubmit the "Wabash Union." I'm sorry, Yank, but this time line is not a battlefield in a role playing game. We create "nations" and states according to plausibility. Now we have a west Virginian based "Republic of Virginia" that de facto claims thestate by that name. This government has challenged Delmarva for control of parts of Virginia and deposed legitimate governments in gaining its present status. All's fair in rebuilding the world, but let's keep the role playing out of the story-telling, okay? SouthWriter 19:52, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

The last time I checked the "Provisional Indiana" regime had been made obsolete. I believe that just about all of the larger nationstates of North America have been discovered. I think my Wabash Union is much more plausible than the Provisional Indiana article. I apologize for some of my descisions being too RPG-like, but that's my view of creating nations. I believe that you need to understand the nation before you can write a proper article. I gave each of my masterpieces (Assiniboia, Lincoln, Vietnam and Virginia) a distinct "National psychology".

Yank 20:16, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * We are getting a little off-topic here. The discussion is supposed to center around the actual territory the VR controls in the state of Virginia. It is not supposed to be a discussion of each of Yank's articles and his motivations in writing them. Mitro 20:19, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not want to burn my bridges with Yank but I have expressed the major concerns I have with this article, as he is known for putting his own beliefs and opinions into his article as well as occasional role-playing. But he has Virginia establishing formal relations with the "measley population of East Britian", and shipping/flying products throughout the world, among other things. In his mind, I think he thinks Virginia is an exact replica of the modern day and age minus a few minor things (only thing I haven't seen is Virginia Video Games). The military power is overstretched (building tanks?), but the main offender must be theMilitary society/anti-Americanism that has been ingrained into the minds of the Virginians, who used to be Americans, and especially the WVers who shed blood to separate from the rogue state of Virginia to stay with the Union in the Civil War. I think the issue of the size of East Virginia needs to be ironed out once and for all and then with the other issues, or this article may one day see a review template. Arstar 20:24, October 25, 2010 (UTC)



Yeah that map is unrealistic. A year ago Virginia only had the western most counties of Virginia. Now in a year they have expanded almost to the coast? Sorry Yank but that is implausible. Check out the archives to this talk page, we have had this discussion before. Its up there with the constant argument about Richmond or Manchester surviving Doomsday. Mitro 15:42, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

There was a provisional state government based in about the western third of the state. The Virginians annexed it in around '97, and have been expanding eastward slowly ever since. So as far as I'm concerned it is realistic. Yank


 * First off, be more careful, you erased my comment when adding your response. Second off, canon says nothing about a provisional government in western Virginia.  It makes mention of minor communities, but no provisional government.  It all comes back to the same argument I have been making since the article has become canon: you are going to fast to be plausible.  Mitro 20:12, February 7, 2011 (UTC)

Congress: Unicameral or bicameral?
Hey, Mitro. why is that you have the partisan structure of the Republic like it's a unicameral body, but you mention it has both a House and a Senate? If it is a bicameral, please add the partisan structure of both houses sperately, please. Try to use the originial legislature in West Virginia (100 house, 34 senate) as a template. -mcclellan in '64 15.03 January 12, 2011 68.38.233.201 20:03, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * First, please create a user name, trust me it makes things easier for both yourself and us. Second, I think you want to talk to Yank, he is the chief creator and caretaker of the article.  I am not responsible for creating most of the content of this article.  Mitro 20:29, January 12, 2011 (UTC)

American Spring
First, you should have started a new paragraph instead of appending the sentence to a paragraph about Hopewell.

Second, wouldn't a government statement pre-emptively branding a protest, no matter what the subject, as treason, be against the constitution of the Republic? The Republic has come a long way, and it is a democracy of sorts. What does the government gain in modern times by continuing to bully its citizens into observing the party line?

I guess what I'm saying, Yank, is that the Republic is strong enough to change with the times. The danger of the warlords is far gone. The nation has the respect of many in the area as well. Why should you continue to hold it up as an ideal survivor state run by an oligarchy of military elite? Is the government so insecure that it cannot endure some competition?

I'm not trying to cause trouble, but I don't won't your article to become another battleground of inviability. Work with real people in mind. If there is no violence, why would a civilized nation respond with violence or threats of harsh treatment (trial and possible execution!)? If the government is going to oppose the movement, the worst that it should do is expel the dissidents from its borders. Just some ideas.SouthWriter 04:41, April 1, 2011 (UTC)