Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common, electricial experimentation

 * Japan
 * Naples
 * Austria
 * Hungarian puppets/independent colonies/colonies/vassals
 * Napolitan puppets/colonies/independent colonies/vassals
 * Vietnamese puppets/colonies/vassals
 * French puppets/independent colonies/colonies/vassals
 * Chinese puppets/colonies/vassals
 * Labrador
 * Japanese puppets/colonies/vassals/independent colonies
 * USA
 * Hanthawaddy
 * Hanthawaddian colnies/vassals/independent colonies/puppets
 * Manoa
 * Brunei
 * Afghanistan

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns, electricity used in cities

 * Russia
 * Hungary
 * Egypt
 * Finland
 * Finnish colonies/independent colonies
 * Northern and littoranean China
 * Caliphate
 * United Principalities
 * Greece
 * Persia
 * Russian puppets/colonies/indeoendent colonies/vassals
 * Swedish former colonies
 * Bharat/puppets/colonies/vassals

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about electricity? we have to assume that something like the voltaic pile eventually was discovered?i mean, already is 1818 and nothing about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:58, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Could we update the map? It's been 60 years since then.

Yank 20:47, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Stability
2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Due to the vote, in which every voting player agreed, this system will now be used for all nations (however, some changes have been proposed based upon industrialization) LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:54, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm Results and Moderator Revolts
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/(z+y))*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory.

For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Early Planning/Nation Calling/Map Making
Seeing as Principia Moderni is entering it's final century, would any of you sign on to play on a hypothetical Principia Moderni Mark II? Especially if we take the effort to iron out the flaws in the colonization system? I would play as Japan, which was going to be my first choice.

Yank 16:56, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

might play as a nation in north america maybe Canada? Andr3w777 16:44, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

I would, and I'd be playing as a Thai kingdom if there will be a PM Mark II. -Kogasa 17:00, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Me too.i would be playing as Portugal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:05, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

It shouldn't be made until after this one is done, but I'll play. Probably as Ireland, Scotland, or one of the native American nations (like Tsalagi or Muscogee). LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:11, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also I have a map of about 1450 I made for another game, which can easily have a few things changed to be 1450 in real life. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:11, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with only making it after this one is complete.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:16, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have a map, I only have a few questions first: LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:00, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) How should city-states or small states be portrayed? Nations like the Mayas, the Irish, and the Swahili are not unified nations, but are "civilized". Currently I have them the same as civil disarray, but I want to know if they should be kept as the dark grey, made black (like other tribes), or given some other designation.
 * 2) Should there be labels on the main map? Currently I have labels, but I could make a version labelless if needed. Labels do look messy and can interfere with coastlines, but currently we have a lot of "X nation invades the small country under it". Should we have both labelled and unlabelled versions (labelled being updated less frequently)?
 * 3) (assuming that we will have a labelled version) Should major unorganized tribes have labels on the map?
 * 4) What constitutes an organized, developed nation or small states? Would the various North American natives be counted, or not?

Definitely, though I am debating whether to be China or England.

I will be Korea again, and I won't let my colonial empire be taken apart by *others* cough cough Vietnam hehe. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:58, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to play as Venice, England or even some spanish or arabian state like Castille or Aragon. I think not-unified nations should ave a different border than unified nations and colonies, so we disitnguish them. On alabelled map, we should put the name of major uncivilized tribes to make them "civilizable and playable". Obviously a developed nation is a group of peoples that have somehow a centralized system. The european nations have mostly king and comon institutions. Others like the irish just have periodic alliances during time of crisis. Others, like the League of Mayapan, the mpauche Wallmapu, some asian khanates, are simply permanent or periodic confederations of civilzied tribes that unify under a common institution of even a person during times of crisis. May be not-confederated but civilized tribes should be distinguished from the confederated ones. Such as the League of Mayapan should be distinguished from the rest of not-unified maya tribes.--Galaguerra1 21:55, May 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * So what should the difference be between Civil Disarray, Loose Confederations, Civilized Tribes, City-States, etc.? Specifically. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:05, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll have fun with Making the Novgorodian State dominate moscow in this new one.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:20, May 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes I would love to Play a Second Principia, Im sad I missed out on all the fun.-Althistoryman11


 * A state in civil disarray is that state that is, in theory, organized, but in civil war, as warlords are struggling for the dominion; Africa is full of examples, a state in civil war would be the same, a state in a succesion war, a state with a provisional unestable government. A confederation is a group of tribes that unite in case of war or share some common institution, like a parliament, and example is the Rouran Khanate in Asia, the mapuche Wallmapu in South America, maybe the Iroquois Confederacy even. City-states and civilized tribes are cgroups of people that are culturaly and ethnicly alike, but are not confederated, usually they have conflcit with each other, the difference is that; while tribes are contered in a cultural core (tribe, family, clan, etc...) and primitive; city-state are just organized states, but smaller, and centered around a geographical/political core, and they have an orgnaized government, a capital and could have colonies and form city-state confederations (like the Aetolian League in OTL Greece). --Galaguerra1 01:12, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * But how would they be on the map? (currently Confederations are marked the same as unified nation-states, and city-states and civil disarray are the same). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:32, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe different borders. Confederaitons wouldm have a blue borde ror something like that and the city-states and tribes would have golden borders? I don't know, something like that whould work. --Galaguerra1 01:37, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Different borders worked for colonies here, that is true. The unsettled tribes I currently just have as their names in the middle of the black areas. I'll upload the current map as it stands, for 1450.
 * Principia_Moderni_2_1450.png added Manoa and Onguayal for tradition's sake, the first moderator event can be made by them.
 * Also, I suggest we use the format of this game, instead of the Fractured America format that almost all other games currently use, simply because it annoys me. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:43, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact I've invented a system that I think would work, be cause so many times I've seen people arguing about who invented what weapon, or that obtain 500 thousand kilos of gold is a plausible benefit but it doesn't have any benefit in the system. My system bases on points and its used in Orbis Terrarum, the Map Game I currently run with Jaeden CC (previously Burgundy) in the spanish Althist wiki. We have economic points (denarii, though I supose they should be called ducats in this gam, or somethng like that) that are equal to a specific cuantity of gold, and we use them for build up military, trade, aument our expansion rate, fund independent explorers of scientifics (moderator events), fund rebellions abroad, or trade them for investigation points, that we use to develop technology. Does some of you undestarnd spanish? So you could read the system in the page "Puntuación (Orbis Terrarum)". If you don't I'll graldy traduce the system to show you how it works. --Galaguerra1 01:52, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I also think the Holy Roman Empire should have different borders, as it's composed by many different states and those state could striggle the crown. --Galaguerra1 01:53, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand Spanish enough to figure the system out, I hope it won't be overly complicated (then again, a complicated game could have fewer and more competent players). I'll read up on it. On the HRE, I am going to think of a way, maybe I'll go with your idea with the different colored border, or use dotted borders or thinner borders for the states inside it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:03, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll end up reprising my role as China. Trying to kill the Mongols will be a challenge with the algorithm, but it can be done. I'd like to go more in-depth with China's interior. CrimsonAssassin 03:43, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll play as France. Making a huge worldwide empire can be a challenge, but may be worth it. BTW, for the HRE, is it possible you can take the position (you know, like Charles V)? RandomWriterGuy 04:16, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I, as you all know, am an India fanatic so I'll take the Dehli sultanate. However, things won't be like what they seem, and I don't plan to have a mughal empire! ;D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 08:10, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll be Oman in the next game, but whatever happened to making this game into a timeline? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:20, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you know that Oman actually had an empire in the 18th/19th Century but stupid emperors led to its downfall. It was so bad that there was a communist rebellion in the early 70s. Read the to get what I mean. :P --[[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 10:34, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

OK, for the new map, I gave the HRE borders which were blue and grey mixed, and the smaller states inside I gave thinner borders than normal. On the subject of the HRE, would people play as the individual states, or the empire itself? LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:37, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Individual states. In the vidogame Europa Universalis III In Nomine, the member sof the HRE are independent, but electors can appoint an Emperor and these EMperros can make laws that affect the whole empire, intervene somehow in politics, accept new members of the Empire and appoint new electors. I'm considering to play as England an ghet the throne of the HRE, or even make Venice a members of the Empire. I don't know. But I think I'll decide soon. --Galaguerra1 16:48, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I read the system on the Spanish wiki, and it seems good, so if you could translate that when we actually make the game, that would be good. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:00, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'd be glad to do so. Thank you. --Galaguerra1 22:27, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think I should play as China instead. RandomWriterGuy 22:32, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if you're trolling me or being serious. I already called China. CrimsonAssassin 22:47, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I made a draft of a first post in my userspace: Principia Moderni II. I will make a draft of the rules later so that we can work out all the new colonization and whatnot. Also I am going to update the map (again). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:20, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I've decided for England, and Jaeden says me that he'll join as Castille. I'll make a draft for my system. There are some things I need to ask you about it. --Galaguerra1 01:24, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

On the map you missed the iroquois civilization, as it did technicaly have one "Parliment" consisting of the top chieftains of each of the 5(and later 6) nations-Lx (leave me a message) 01:29, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I will add them, for some reason I thought they had formed later, but I checked and they had definately formed by 1450, though their origins before that are indeed unknown. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:59, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Colonial Expansion/Independent Colonies Debate
We should have it where expansion doubles in 1650, triples in 1700, quadruples in 1800, and quintuples in 1850. CrimsonAssassin 03:06, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have a draft of the rules up: Rules (Principia Moderni II) We will need to add and change a lot of stuff. As for the expansion, here is an idea I had: With several extra modifiers: Is this good? LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:06, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are using a half-turn, you get half the expansion
 * If the colony itself is younger than 5 years, it can only expand by 200 square kilometers, regardless of any bonuses
 * If a colony itself is older than 50 years, a bonus +100 square km is given for expansion in that colony
 * If a colony is older than 150 years, a bonus +500 square km is given for expansion in that colony
 * When areas of the Americas are first contacted by people from Eurasia or Africa, that region that is contacted will have double the colonial expansion rates from those outside nations. Regions contacted in the first 50 years since first contact will have trippled expansion.
 * Additional bonuses will be recieved with industrialization, and other bonuses may arrive later.
 * Expansion into areas which are fragmented (in civil disarray or small states) can be done through colonial expansions, at half the normal rates. Expansion into gray areas requires an algorithm

Also, another idea I had was restricting players to only being able to control one of their former colonies, thus the former colony would get its own, new color instead of using the part nation's color, as that was sort of confusing with having independent nations the same colors as others. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:50, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree with this policy of only controlling one of your former colonies, but agree with the new colour change though. Basically because we lack an AI to control non-player nations (which is usually present in video games for stuff like this). So in order to make the game be as perfectly competitive as possible we shouldn't bother with this rule, otherwise we just risk having NPC nations dominating the game, and leading us to the same problems as we have in this game --VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC).

I've amde the proposal for my additions to the system here:. It's based on Orbis Terrarum's, but not the same. I hope you'll find it to be useful for this game. --Galaguerra1 20:34, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the spelling (it's liberator, not libertier, English is a messed-up language). For the proposal, my main concern is with the popularity thing, how can we determine how popular a nation's actions are with its people? Because everyone will say that their people all love the system to get the most popularity. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:37, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I agree, english is messed-up, and sometimes I just confuse. Anyway, for the popularity and loyalty things, we should have a single mode to that, so the mod could decide based on the system of government, recent actions of the government, etc... And a second mod who would wield the main moderator's powers when the first one is involved in the war or absent. If both are involved or absent, people should vote. Also, I trust in the player's plausibility on this matters. --Galaguerra1 01:19, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Are there no complaints about the colonization system? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:36, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's good. --Galaguerra1 02:42, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I like this new system and I find it easier to understand. Hope to play the next game as Russia, unless that's already taken. Maybe Brandenburg then. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:55, May 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I already claimed russia...sorry...I want to reprise my role, but this time have it dominated by Novgorod instead of Moscow.-Lx (leave me a message) 11:54, May 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * You guys could always have 2 Russian states fighting over control of OTL Russia like Novogorod vs Moscow, but continue it for ages. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:25, May 24, 2012 (UTC).

Also, I had one question that I have pondered over for a while. In the rules for chance it says: "Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3)." Why would there be such a strange rule? Yes, I understand that it produces a very random number. Really one of the strangest things I've ever seen, yet it is very ingenious. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:05, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

The rule is so that people cannot complain that the Random Number Generator is unfair, like they do in many other games. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:08, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I gree with changing the colour of newly independnt colonies, but, if we just leave them to be NPC nations, being sincere, the nearby player nations will devour them. Also, I want to make it clear: The traveling system I propose only applies to 1450's technology, so, at 1800, you could travel more distance for less money, is the technology is invented.

I think economic points should allow a nation to aument its territorial or military expansion rate. --Galaguerra1 16:11, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

If the second game works like the first, we should have no problem. Romainia and Moldova have sat for centuries undisturbed and unconquered. Nations that fought for their freedom from colonialism are going to be less likely to allow themselves to be subjugated again, and having to deal with constant revolts of your annexed territory will cause a nation so much problems it wouldn't be worth it. We cannot allow everyone to control every single independent colony and still give them all a new color. There aren't enough distinct colors. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:44, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

So, is it concluded that you will only be able to control one former colony at a time? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:56, May 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally, I would like it if we get to control all our former colonies, and them being a lighter colour from the original nation. I liked it better with former colonies having a lighter colour from the original nation and I understand it would get confusing and complex. I don't know, kinda would discourage having colonies a bit, maybe. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:42, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just plain confusing though, especially once the former colonies start building colonial empires of themselves and having their own vassals and whatnot. Plus it makes posts really long, and in the end people have 7 nations or more. I am thinking of adding a colonial empire bonus to the algorithm to encourage more colonization. The problem with the lighter color was that it is also the same color as puppet states. Having only 1 former colony to be controlled at a time could then let that colony have its own color, so no confusion, and would result in shorter posts, which would probably make it easier to make maps and would definately make it easier to make algorithms. And it would give more opportunity for new players to join. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:00, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * We could make it so that the colonies that declared independence won't have their own colonial empires (but they can only hold on/take care of the mother nations colonies if the mother nation is in trouble or something.) While it may make posts really long, at least it can prevent from unexpected events happening to them (ie Satori gives independence to Rin and Utsuho. Rin is still controlled by the player but Utsuho isn't. Since Satori had undergone a transition from Buddhist to Hindu for years and two of her former colonies, Rin and Utsuho are both Hindu. But then an event happens where Utsuho is all slowly converted back to Buddhist all of a sudden, and Hindu becomes minority. Or, after Utsuho is taken by another player then the new player turns Utsuho into a Confucianist state, etc.). And I see, well if we allow the new players to ask permission from a person who happens to control two of their former colonies, the new player can always ask for said person if it's okay to control one of their former colony, and the player can agree. We have that system here, so I personally think it would be good if we could have it in the new game as well. Like I said, I understand that it's all confusing and takes up much space and causes problems for the map makers; but at least the players who play their colonies can ensure that random events (ie the example I gave above) won't happen: and they can always give a new player their colony to control if they want. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 13:31, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

We do need something like a colony bonus, because at it stands colonies don't contribute anything to the mother country's war effort. However we should keep the system of players controlling former colonies until a new player comes in to take them over, otherwise we risk having too many NPCs, which is a worse problem than having former states controlled by past players, as their is reduced game play. Plus I think that we should be able to have more colonies too. On the point of having too many countries with the same colour, we could always just add a numerical reference on the map rather than just relying on colours. The way I see it, people use independent states as a means of boosting their scores in the algorithms (hence they're aren't too many countries which don't get on with their former masters) so we need to encourage players to keep colonies opposed to giving them independence & being pally with the former rulers. Hence I rate we treat colonies like we do vassals in the algorithm VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC).

How are NPCs a problem? The number of players would stay the same. And I do not understand what you are talking about Kogasa with unexpected events happening. Players can and have done just as many random events with their own nations. If the new players come on and do something random and implausible, their actions will be crossed out. Moderators should not cause random moderator events that are implausible. Furthermore, voluntarily giving another player control of your former colony that you now have no influence over does nothing to prevent them from making those same events happen. With numerous nations all being the same color as puppet states or colonies they would be and have been in this game times when there has been confusion among the players as to who controls what area. There have quite literally been wars on this map game that have been mistakenly caused or escalated due to the fact that people did not know who was independent and who was not. Confusion damages the gameplay. Labels work, but to do a label system that could fix that, massive amounts of parentheses would be needed to label nations such as "The Phillipines (Vassal of the United States (former colony of Britain))". Plus, the question of what former colonies of former colonies will look like, and puppet states of former colonies, has not been determined. Numerous other successful map games have had the rule in which a player can control no former colonies. Encouraging people to keep colonies instead of granting them independence creates and implausible game like Axis vs. Allies 2 where colonization never ended, or it would otherwise result in everyone granting all their colonies independence at the very last moment. Finally, it is implausible to state that a nation will be weaker in a war and unable to establish any colonies simply because it was once a colony itself. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:51, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Do we really need each player controlling 8 different nations anyways? I know that it is hard for me to divide my time and attention between all of my nations, and a lot are neglected because it is hard to roleplay that many nations. 2 long quality posts is better than 6 short ones Plus, you all don't know how hard it is to count up all of the times of expansion and military development and who is helping who in the war when there are hundreds and hundreds of lines by people with 5 nations each all posting stuff. Poor Collie has to count up every single nation's colonial expansion for the past 5 years for each map. That is probably at least a thousand lines to go through, and even more are being made every day as more nations become independent. We moderators are only humans after all. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:05, May 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, as long as a player gives a new player permission to play as their former colony, then they can do whatever they want with it. Sorry if I wasn't being too clear. Also I never said that a mother nation would be able to keep all colonies, of course most of colonies would be given independence (and mod events could enforce that too if needed) and they can only keep a few colonies that are about the size of OTL French Guiana or less. Also the colours of former colonies of former colonies can remain the same, and so on...
 * Anyway, I just though that having people control former colonies would be able to ensure that their way they made the nation would stay the same and if they wanted to give a nation to a new player, they can do so and let them do what they want with the nation that was given to them. And while personally I'm against being able to control only one, instead of all, of my former colony, I'm fine with whatever the desition comes to be. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 20:07, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I had been responding to Von Glusenberg, who stated that we should try and encourage people to keep colonies for longer instead of having a bunch be independent to boost the algorithm. Nations do change slowly over time, but massive changes would be implausible without a good reason. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:22, May 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * It is well if you don't want to play all your former coolonies, so don't play them, but I really enjoy controlling every nation, giving them all a different history. --Galaguerra1 20:48, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that's not what I meant. I meant that I preferred to play all my former colonies, and I liked that better. However I then said that I don't mind what the desition would come out to be, even though I don't really like the idea of controlling only one colony. Sorry for my unclear English... -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 20:58, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still say that it is confusing to play the game with so many player-controlled nations, and it is very difficult to moderate and most likely to mapmake for all of that as well. Perhaps we could say that you could only play as one former colony at a time. So, for example, in real life the British player could play as America and Britain until the 1920s, then drop America and play as Egypt until the 1940s when they start playing as India. So you could still have variety and give your nations more history, but only 2 would be played as and have colors at the same time, so it would be easier to moderate and mapmake. This would also encourage people to make the independence process gradual instead of all at once, so they could have equal time with each former colony. Having each player control 7 nations is very complicated though. If the game was like real life, the player of Britain would end up controlling 20 nations by the end! LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:22, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the idea, controlling a former colony one at a time. Good enough for me, I accept. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:39, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I'm not convinced, but, If you aren't disposed to yield, well, I accept that. But I'd still prefer to play all of them, or, at least, the ones I'd like to play with. --Galaguerra1 22:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll put it in the rules for now. We have about a year until colonies would become independent in the second game anyways, so if we decide to change something or someone has a new idea, we can come up with it then. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:17, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * When I say we should encourage colonization, I means as opposed to making loads of vassal & puppet states and independent nations because at the end of the day colonies contribute nothing to algorithm scores at the moment, so people are less inclined to make colonies. And too many NPCs is a problem. For example think about how many countries would be NPCs in the current game if we made all former colonies NPCs? We'd lose so much creativity and content, which has gone from these former colonies. If they'd become NPCs then we would not have the world we have in 1912. I'd estimate nearly half of the past 50 year's content has involved former colonies controlled by their former master's player. And you want to throw that away? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:39, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am thinking of further reducing the amount of action of puppet states. Plus, if there were less independent colonies, people could concentrate on their main nations more. And you are ignoring my massive arguments about how it is extremely difficult to moderate, make maps, make algorithms, and the various other actions necessary for the game to function, actions which you do not need to perform. Add in the confusion that this has caused and will cause in the future. And add in the fact that these problems are only going to get worse. I think that these problems outweigh the benefits, and we can get by with still having twice the number of nations on most map games. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:33, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have the solution for this vassals/puppets problem. In my new map game, players have to play as their colonies and vassals, however, it is all supposed to be compiled into one long post. That avoids the confusion for colonies and vassals. However, puppet nations should be played seperately since they are not really controlled by that nation.


 * Example: I intend to/ will  play as Brandenburg in Mk II, so let's say I have a colony, New Leipzig, a vassal state, Lesser Germany, and a puppet state, Hohenzollernia. I write something like this: "Brandenburg: The New Leipzig colony is expanded by x sq km in directions y and z. Meanwhile the vassal state of Lesser Germany continues to help in the fight against Bohemia, respecting their vassalism. Also, the emperor instructs the Hohenzollernians to invade Southern Bohemia and take the crucial city of w. He also learns that around Hohenzollernia's colony of Wihelmland there is a large deposit of gold. He tells them to expand." Under that should be: "Hohenzollernia: Receiving orders from Brandenburg, Hohenzollernia invades southern Bohemia and takes the crucial city of w. Also, the colony of v is expanded by Brandenburgian order since the emperor learned that there was valauble gold in the surrounding areas."


 * That should fix it all up. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:09, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that people shouldn't have seperate lines for each of their vassals. But that wasn't really my point, I was talking about what Von mentioned earlier about how people made a ton of vassals and puppet states to boost their algorithm points. But, honestly, I've thought about it and decided the -1 on algorithms would be enough. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:40, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I offered to be a mod after Scan quit remember? If you guys want to ignore my offers of help and then ruin the game because you can't be bothered to do the job you signed up to do, then your just making your own problems. If there is a lot to moderate, which there is, then add more moderators to spread out the workload rather than reducing the workload. You have people who'd be willing to help you moderate. Map making I'll take Collie's word on the difficulty of that as he is the map maker, but he does a great job, and if he has problem with the map making then again, there are plenty of people willing to help him & we amend the map were necessary. Algorithms are tough to make anyway, people make their own algorithms but yeah looking back to find out what you need to do in an algorithm is always going to be a ball ache, but thats the price we pay for a fairer war resolution system. As for having twice the number of countries than other games, that's what makes this game the best! Other map games just end up having one or two big nations ruling the world, whereas our game is delightfully spread out. As for confusion, that's always going to persist, but unless you're going to stand behind everyone & make sure they read everything then there isn't much of a solution other than reducing content, but that then makes the game less interesting as there is less going on. Besides if anyone is confused they can always just post something on the talk page and someone can enlighten them VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:25, May 28, 2012 (UTC).
 * Having 20+ nations per player in a map game is going to be confusing regardless of who is playing. There is no way that a game will be easy to play when each year has hundreds, maybe even thousands of lines of text to go through. People will miss things. This game isn't being changed at all, we are talking about the next game. If you can't be willing to compromise like Kogasa did and still have more nations under your control than you are allowed anywhere else, I am sorry. A ton of confusion is worse than a little less content. This game was the most active map game, and fun for more than a year prior to the advent of massive decolonization, and it was less confusing then as well. You appear to play other map games with only one nation per player and enjoy them, so you should really enjoy having two nations. But this argument is about something that will happen in a year or more. I'll put the compromise me and Kogasa made together in the rules now.LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:40, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know this game isn't being changed, I'm just showing you that a lot of the success of this game has been due to the wide array of nations interacting with one another. But I must disagree with you, content is more important than confusion, because confusion can be solved by asking questions, whereas if we added more content, it'd ruin the established cannon. We're holding the game back because of our own short comings.
 * Want to know why I think we should have lots of player controlled nations? Because I find it highly implausible that we have half of the countries in the world not reacting to events going on in player nations, expanding, founding colonies or starting wars. Its not a good enough simulation of history to have half the world sitting around on their thumbs barely reacting to any global events. To solve this we either need to have more player controlled nations or a heck of a lot more mod events to show the rest of the NP world reacting to the player controlled world. That's my fundamental issue with the game, heck all map games. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:25, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Changes to the Algorithm
So, on the subject of subjects that would be pertinent to all points of the game, I was thinking of adding another bonus for population to the algorithm, beyond just the stability one. I know that Lx has been pushing for this for quite some time. Does anyone have any ideas?LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:49, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should have three things: Population, Population in favor of the war/militar engagement, and Population against. Nation with larger population = +1, in favor = +1, against = -1. Then again, in three map game I have employed the use of "the League of Mathematicians," mod who do algorithm for other people unless they are involved in the war. As for using the vassals/puppets in the algorithm, I think two things: A, drop that, or B, use an insane formula like the one for chance. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 16:43, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Population in favor/against seems very easy to manipulate. I think that the "motive" points factor in that, as the people will be more in support of the action if it is life or death versus political. A "League of Mathematicians" sounds strange to me. Scandinator was the war moderator before he quit, but that didn't do anything. I think people should all make their own algorithms and then have them approved by the moderators, that is what I did on this game before becoming a moderator. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:50, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

I proposed a bonus on my proposal page. This is: The number of population based on historical censes on the place or moderator aprooved stadistics: The bonus equals the number of zeros of the popualtion rounded off and the numbers of millions. So, a country with 9.000.000 inhabitants gets a 9 + 6 = 15 points bonus. BTW, what do you thinka bout my proposal? I mean, Lurker already told me, but I want to know what the rest thinks aobut it. --Galaguerra1 16:48, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Colonies should be providing something to the war effort too -- VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:25, May 29, 2012 (UTC).

I added that the nation with the larger colonial empire in the war gets a +5 bonus. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I decided to be Scotland for the game. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:29, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Galaguerra, your system for population has some problems. For example, a nation with 9,000,000 inhabitants would have (9+6)15 bonus points, while a nation with 10,000,000 would have (1+7)8 bonus points, which makes no sense. For the moral and the popularity of the war, again that sounds fairly easy to be rigged by players to always have their troops have high moral and the war be popular. I think motivation would cover that. Speaking of motivation, I have some ideas to how to overhaul that system: This is because most conflicts just used the political motive as "trying to gain territory" motive, when the real purpose behind that would be economic. Also, I decided to split Social/Moral to differentiate between trying to help others versus trying to help your own people. For example, if Britain is oppressing the Northern Irish, and France goes to war to help them, it would be Social/Moral Friend, +5. However, if it is Ireland trying to help the Irish in Northern Ireland, it would be Social/Moral Kinsmen, +7.
 * Economic: Fighting for resources= +3
 * Defending: Fighting to defend territory you already own=+5
 * Social/Moral Friend:Fighting for social/moral reasons to help an ethnicity/race in the nation=+5
 * Social/Moral Kinsmen:Fighting for social/moral reasons to help a minority of your nation's main ethnicity/race in another nation:+7
 * Religious: Fighting for religious beliefs=+7
 * Life or Death:Opponents purpose is to destroy your nation=+10

Also, to clarify for the religious motivation: you can't just use this because your nation is a different religion. Furthermore, the religion you are supporting has to be the dominant religion of your nation, if you are helping a religious minority being persecuted in another nation that isn't the main religion of your nation, it is just Social/Moral Friend. Note that by main religion, it can either be denominational (Protestant vs. Catholic, Shi'a vs. Sunni) or religious (Christian vs. Muslim, Hindu vs. Sikh). A Catholic Spain can use this to help Orthodox Greeks being massacred by Muslim Ottomans, for example.

Potential causes of this motivation: If there are other instances you want to add to the list, or other motivations, please suggest them below. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:08, May 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) The nation you are fighting is severely increasing religious persecution or conversion of members of your nation's main religion. Almost all nations in the beginning of the game will have favored or official religions and some level of persecution against minorities. However, if a nation starts implementing new, much more severe actions, such as forced conversions or deaths, that they did not have before against members of your nation's main religion, you can use this.
 * 2) The nation you are fighting against has some holy site(s) for your nation's main religion, and has cut off or severely restricted access to those sites, or damaged, converted, or destroyed them.
 * 3) The government of the nation you are fighting against has opposed numerous conversion attempts by your nation. For example, over the past several decades, your nation has been sending missionaries into the other nation, but that nation's government has banned such activity and stopped the missionaries. The government needs to do this. If the government allows the missionaries by the people of the nation don't convert, you can't use this.
 * 4) The nation you are fighting against has either changed its official religion, which was once your main nation, or is allowing large amounts of converts recently. For example, if Britain suddenly breaks away from the Catholic Church and becomes Protestant, Spain can use this. Also, if for example Korea is still officially Buddhist, but they have recently permitted vast amounts of Christian converts in their nation to the extent that the status of Buddhism as the dominant religion in Korea is threatened, China can use this motivation.

Sorry, but you're wrong. A nation with 10.000.000 inhabitants would have 10 + 6 = 16 bonus, as the number counted in million equals 10, and it has 6 non-million zeros. I think it is more than plausible, as 1 million more population is 1 more bonus point.

Also, I think your causality system is very well. I'd like to be the mod for moral (popularity and loyalty).--Galaguerra1 00:16, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, so it's millions, not just the first digit. OK then. My main question is with the motives, is there any need for popularity or loyalty? I assumed that the higher motives were the ones the people thought strongest about, and the lower motives were the ones that the people were less enthused about. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:06, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I added in all the names of people who had already called nations to the sign-up area, but you can change yours until the game begins. Kogasa, you said a Thai kingdom, and there are two, so I gave you Siam since the other is Sukhothai and tiny and landlocked. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:11, June 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's good, I meant the Ayutthaya Kingdom (Siam) anyway. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 03:48, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

It was just a suggestion, as I consider the people's support to the ones invading/defending their country would be an important factor in a war, as the loyalty of the troops also influences the result. --Galaguerra1 01:18, June 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * But what I am saying is that the support of the people and troops goes under motivation already. They are going to be less enthused to fight and support the war if they are just fighting over resources, versus if they are fighting for their religion or fighting to defend their home nation. I can make the motive more important in the war if you want.


 * In fact, I was looking at the wars in this game, and I saw that currently, the two main factors in the wars are the stability and the number of allies. Only in close wars has military build up, motive, chance, or location mattered. Usually those things only matter in cases of whether or not the losing gov can be toppled. Due to this, the two factors that matter most in a war are allies and the length of government reign.


 * Now, one solution I had to this was the make military build up count as +2 for every year, which would make it count twice as more. Also, I was considering making a penalty for being in a lot of wars just as an ally, but I need ideas. Another idea I had was overhauling or removing the stability curve, as I am starting to find a system which would make the modern day USA a weak nation to be faulty, perhaps just making a system of Newly formed nation (less than 5 years since gov change (-10)), New nation ( 5-30 years since gov change (-5)), Average nation (20-100 years since gov change (+))), Old nation (100-300 years (+5)), Ancient nation (past 300 years (-5)).


 * Also there would be an industrialization bonus. In addition, I am planning to give a few moderator event bonuses to nations that sometimes take a year off from military build up or full expansion or war or anything to work on their economy, infrastructure, agriculture (or later) industrialization as a reward. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:10, June 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand your point, but I consider that the cause of the war is the motivation only for the government, not the people. An example: France is a dictature and Naples is a monarchy, but the people is actually more lbieral than the king. Then, Naples invades France, as France is commiting some acts they cosnider to be heretic, such as allying with a muslim nation, for example. Then, France would have the motive Life or Death, as Naples attemtps to topple the government, and the Life or Death cuase means 10 points in the algorythm., is the government's cause. But the people doesn't want to ahve this dictature anymore, so they would support this war, and not fight with a 10-points-motivation for their government. Also, the troops could be actually loyal to the dictator, but also they could be jsut interested in money, and let's suppsoe Naples has more money and actual possibilities of win the war. Now, Naples would have a religious cause, 7 points. But the people of Naples is not as conservative and religious as the King, so they surely wouldn't fight with a 7-points-motivation only for religious motives. But the troops of Naples could be religious, but be disposed to sell themselves to the enemy if France offers them enough money. This is way I consider the cause of the war doesn't reflect the whole support that the people and troops in general gives to the war, but the government's.
 * Also, I think the system for the government's antiquity is good. I think that, if we finally use the point system I proposed, we could have some extra points in the war if invest money in it, or in the military build ups. If not, the system of 1 build up equals +2 points is good enough for me. --Galaguerra1 03:34, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with the moral thing is that that just seems too manipulatable by the people. Then everyone would say all their people and armies were totally behind all their wars, or the moderators would be forced to control how every single nation's people felt in every single war, whether it fit the player's vision of their nation or not.
 * I will check your system again to see if it would work right, I might do both regardless. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:35, June 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was thinking about your population system Galaguerra, and I have found a flaw: by this system, nations like China or India would get a thousand points on the algorithm, basically making them totally unstoppable. I know that nations with high populations are stronger, but I fear that the system you have makes them too strong. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:02, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * May be those overpopulated countries could have a negative modification as they have to many people and that makes them much more susceptible to revolts, illness, hungry, pooverty, etc... An overpopulated country would be any country with a population larger than eight characters. Maybe if we calculate the number of million just counting the first eight digits, and then add up the extra characters duplicated. So, China, rounded off, has 1.353.000.000 inhabitants. 6 zeros, 39 as the first two characters of the number counted in millions. The formula would be: 53 + 6 + 13 x 2 = 95 points. India, with 1.258.000.000 inhabitants, gets an 84 poitns bonus.
 * A country with nine characters would have the first two digits multiplicated the extra one, plus the six zeros, plus the extra digit duplicated. USA's popualtion is 315.000.000 = 15 x 3 + 6 + 3 x 2 = 57.
 * If the first non-extra digits are more than 50, then the number is divided four times. a Country with 490.000.000 inhabitants would have (90 x 4 + 6 + 4 x 2) : 6 = 62 points as bonus.
 * If the country doesn't have eight characters, but the population is larger than 50.000.000, then we just divid it two times. So, for example, Vietnam with 89.000.000 inhabitants has a (89 + 6) : 2 = 52 bonus.
 * It's still larger than a country with less than eight characters, for example, Argentina, with 40.000.000, would have just 46.
 * This system could have some mistakes, but I tried to addapt it two current countries. I supose it would work, for now. If there's any msitake, please let me know. The results are big, I know, but, fi we're having so many bonuses, making the military build up equivalent 2 points, then we're having a large number based algorythm anyway. --Galaguerra1 20:46, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * That system is a little bit complicated, but it might be the way you worded it. To recap, this is what I would post on the page:

See, it's a it complicated, even in bullet form. Plus, it does have some implausibilities. For example, someone with 60,000,000 population would get ((60+6)/2)=33 points, while someone with 40,000,000, like argentina, gets 46 points, a sizable advantage despite being only 2/3 of the size of the 60,000,000 nation's population.
 * If your nation is less than a million, it is the first digit of the population plus the number of the remaining digits
 * If your nation has less than 50 million inhabitants but above 1 million, its population bonus is determined by the number of millions +6. I
 * If your nation is between 50 and 100 million, it is the same as above, but with the end result divided in two, unless the first two digits add up to be more than fifty, in which case it is divided by four instead.
 * If your nation is above 100 million but less than 1 billion, the first digit is multiplied by the number made by the second and third digits, then added to six.
 * If the nation is above one billion, the result is made from six, plus the ten and one millions digits, plus the billions and hundred millions digits multiplied by two.

Here is an alternate idea: the initial population bonus is for the number of digits in the population. However, the nation with the larger population gets an additional +2. If the nation with the larger population is more than five times the size of the smaller nation, it gets a +10 bonus instead. If it is more than 10 times the population of the other nation, it gets a +20. Thoughts? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:59, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

I suppose it could work. Ok, let's go with that ^^. I have to work in my population algorythms :P. --Galaguerra1 21:58, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Historical People/Technology
I also would like to propose a rule against all of the bolded OOC text occuring on the main page, other than a person clarifying something OOC after their post or a moderator explaining why they crossed something out. Instead, I would propose that any OOC discussion other than that go on the talk page. On the talk page, up at the top, we would have a big heading called "Map Discussion", under which a subheading would be for each year a map game out, and another being called "Moderator Event Discussion", under which another yearly subheading would occur for the Moderator events. Having a lot of OOC in the game looks bad, and having OOC complaints about the map in the pre-game text looks even worse. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:22, June 7, 2012 (UTC)

Any additional ideas? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:50, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have a proposal: We ban using historical people in the next game. Plausibly, after the POD, no real-life people are going to be born. Slight things such as a 5 minute delay in when someone gets home, who gets killed in a war, people having to move to a different city due to a different economy, the weather on one day being different, are going to prevent the exact conditions for conception from being the same as in OTL. Thus, the person who was born would be very different. Plus, it's more creative and interesting to read about fictional people than just real-life people doing the same thing as in RL, and often transported to a random country. This interpetation could be enforced under implausibility rules, but as it would be a major change, I wanted to suggest it here first. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:49, July 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. I like this idea, because it encourages creativity and interesting. Though, how would it affect some royal familys (like the Japanese Royal Family)? When we eventually do start out the new game, does this mean we can get brand new Emperors and all that are from a completely different royal family we come up with right from the start? -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 17:04, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, the people alive at the start of the game would be alive in the althist, just anyone born after 1450 would not be alive. It would be the same dynasty and whatnot, just anyone born later would be different. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:13, July 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, so that would include no same royal people being born (if the Japanese Royal Family would not be changed or altered in anyway, for example) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 13:00, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hanazono would be emperor, and his son, Tsuchimikado, would presumably become the next as he was born in 1442 (unless he died before 1464, when Hanazono died). But other than that, they would be different people. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:18, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, I have sort of decided in the current nuclear/space race situation (which has like 6 nations going to space all at the same time) that it is best to have both of those join industrialization as a process in which the moderators will choose which nations would gain those technologies first. Any other ideas for technologies that should be restricted? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:06, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Its like you say with people being born and stuff, technologies would be created under different circumstances, by different people, so it should be at different times too. As long as it makes sense for that technology to come into being in our game at that time under those circumstances it should be allowed rather than not allowing it because that's not what happened in OTL. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:04, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * For the second game, the limit is that it can't happen more than 10 years before it was made in real life, as 562 years gives a lot of fluctuation for technology. Detectivekenny made the rule for this game that technology could surpass the date. However, that is not what I was talking about above at all. What I was talking about is that currently, we have 6 nations who have all shot off their first satellites into space in the same year, and they probably are all going to shoot of the first men in space the same year as well. In real life only the two most powerful nations in the world were capable of sending people for space for the first 42 years of human space travel. It isn't the technology being earlier that bothers me, it is that it is occuring all over the globe all at once, with most of the nations doing so not really being advanced enough to do so.


 * So here is what I have planned out, in a manner similar to industrialization: In 1920, 2-4 nations would be chosen for the first ones to develop nuclear weapons. For the next 20 years, they could devote a turn to nuclear research if they wished. However, this would count as a full turn for the aspects of the game. That would mean that they would probably not use all 20 years for nuclear research. In 1940, the nation with the most turns devoted to nuclear research could develop the first bomb anytime they wished in the next decade (even if they wanted to delay it to 1949). The nation with the second most amount of research could do it 2 years after the first, and if there were a third and even a fourth nation chosen, they would have 2 year buffers as well. 10 years after the last of the 2-4 original nuclear nations got nuclear weapons, other nations could if helped by one of the 2-4 original nations. 10 years after that any nation could begin to develop nuclear weapons.
 * Space exploration would work in a similar manner, with 2-4 nations being chosen (not necessarily the same as the nuclear ones) in 1930, and having to devote turns to space research. Then in the 1950s the nation with the most research could send a satellite in space, and the 2 year rule would follow. Nations would have to leave real-life buffers between stages of space exploration (4 years after first satellite to launch first man, 8 years to launch a man to the moon. The same rules about 10 year waits for other nations, and difference between independent and with help, would apply.
 * In events of ties for the number of turns, both nations would be able to achieve the accomplishment the same year, and whoever posts first gets it.
 * Thoughts? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * In additiont to feedback on my system, you can propose other technologies that you think should be limited like this. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:09, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Silence is consent? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:38, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. I disagree (and propose changes to) with parts of your proposal.
 * First and foremost me and Crim have decided that I Denmark will put the first man in space, and all can follow next year. I'll do it in 61.
 * Also, I think some historical people can exist without being the same. EX: Charles Darwin becomes the President of England and Stalin can be the first man in space.
 * And about the game right now, the only nations I see unlikely to be spacing is Wales, but Denmark and Russia are pushing Wales up.
 * Fourthly, the nations that are picked to do things could have some sort of thing happen and they would be crippled and unable to do stuff like get the nuke and satellites, etc. This is the major flaw in your proposal that I see.
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:25, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is implausible for any historical person to even be born. The probability of the exact same sperm cell reaching the exact same egg in a different universe, when the parents may be dead or seperated because of different wars or economies or colonization or religious events, is beyond unlikely.
 * The technology thing is because the first satellite in space had 6 nations in one year. That is ridiculous. As is the massive amount of whining that you and your alliance is doing because China decided not to lie down and let you win everything. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:52, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me. I mean that two completely different people meet up and have a child with the same name and looks like the OTL person.
 * Also I proposed that China and the three nations take a joint mission to the moon.
 * [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 16:44, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Two different people having a child with the exact same DNA as a child of two other people, and then happening to name their child the exact same thing, and live in the exact same time period, is improbable beyond belief. The chance of an OTL person being born in real life 250 years after the POD is 1 to 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
 * 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Everyone's existence today is astronomically lucky. Without divine intervention, no real-life people are being born. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:56, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I think I dominated the real-life people argument. And as for the technology, if you have a war or disaster, you won't be able to use your turn to work on new technology, so you could get behind in the counting.   If a nation completely falls (total government overthrow during the nuclear/space research phase) then they won't count as the same and thus will no longer be in the running.   LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:55, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hetalia (Principia Moderni)
There's a show that I absolutely adore. And that show is known as Hetalia. For all those unaware of it, Hetalia is a show that depicts history by utitizing national personifications. In other words it tells the tale of history by making each nation a human character. There would be differences in each nation's personality and appearance. Naples (and later Italy) has never been "useless" (the title effectively means "useless Italy" in Japanese), and Russia would be a saner character than depicted on the show. It would provide a wonderful opportunity not presented in the actual map game. The ability to role-play as your country. And when the map game becomes a timeline it can become that world's equivilent of Hetalia. I think it'd be fun to do. What do you say?

Yank 02:04, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

That seems quite fun, but what would Bharat's character be like? :D Imperium Guy 08:22, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden, Russia and Vietnam would hate each other.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:14, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Finland would be in love/best friends with Japan :P also, Finland would be friends with Vietnam and France as well; and secretly hates Sweden too. -Kogasa 15:23, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Russia would have a love-hate relationship with Finland, At times, Finland Living in Russia's House then going into Sweden's, Causing much rift between them. then Russia helps finland get her own house away from Sweden(or kick sweden away from his own house) when Sweden Mistreats finalnd.-Lx (leave me a message) 16:27, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes. And to add to what I said previous, Finland, is a female (as Finland has mostly had a female in charge during the unions/confederations and has Empresses and female Shoguns since independence). For Finland's looks, she looks similar to OTL Kogasa Tatara (minus the umbrella, and both eyes are blue) and her personality would be silly/friendly, though can easily fall under someone's control at times (ie, Sweden had forced Finland to be a province of them). -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 16:48, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would also like the defining personality and physical traita of your nation as well as relationships. For instance my Vietnam has medium length black hair in a pony tail and green eyes. She usually (but not always) wears a green Áo Dài (traditional Vietnamese dress) and she always wears a Nón lá (conical straw hat). She usually carries around a rice paddle, which she uses to whack those who displease her. SHe is a confidant and irrepressible woman who always looks out for her friends. What I was saying is that could we make a page for this? {C --Yank 16:20, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

France would bea changin character, sometimes friend of Sweden, then Russia. Having both Sweden and Finland in his house for a while, then letting them go, disputing Sweden for the privilege of be Finland's friend. Then stay at Russia's house, taking control and making a mess. Finally becoming independent and friendly with almost everyone. Physicaly, France would be a tall, blond guy, with a french mustache, always wearing his blue and white uniform. Trying to be friendly, but, when angry, getting mad and troubeling everyone around.


 * For the Napoleonic Wars Russia Could go into a coma when He was experimenting with new technology while France was living with him(death of Emperor Paul I), Leaving France in charge, who then made a mess of things, and when Russia woke up, he quickly kicked france out.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:18, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * France quickly became a repuyblic when they first saw Russia was regaining independence. So the french would flee from Russia's hose and eventually reconcile with him. --Galaguerra1 16:41, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Arabia would be like Osama bin Laden, at first being friend of France and his friends, but becoming more mad and selfish with the time and wanting everyone to obey him and do what he thinks is correct. Attacking everyone who opposes to him. He'd be an enemy of Bharat and Itsaygahi, a friend of Egypt, and consider Persia to be his son with some attention deficit. Persia, I think, should be unable to hear.

Haiti is a black guy who can't decide if he's a friend or an enemy of France, but he's a friend of his neighbors, Ricasolia, Isolaque, Mixxixxipi, Vietnam even.

The "Napoleonic War" we had could be a struggle between France and Vietnam because France did something wrong with Italy. The Northern Wars should be a endless struggle between Russia and Sweden. --Galaguerra1 17:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

To add alongside Finland, her sisters & brothers:

The Shogunate of Kōshi would look similar to OTL Satori Komeiji though without the third eye, and she wear a business suit. She is mostly a serious and friendly person and gets worried whenever something goes wrong. She is friendly with Japan, and helps out her sister Finland whenever she is in need of help.

Käwäshiro, he looks similar to OTL and is usually mean and greedy, and is always going for the money. Dislikes practicality anyone he meets, save for a few.

And Moriyää, she would like with long dark hair. She is mostly shy and would usually go to Kōshi or Finland for help or protection. -Kogasa 17:36, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

How would Italy uniting work? Italy is closer to Naples than it is to Venice. Naples/Italy would be a good friend to Anglo-Germany and to Vietnam, and would be friendly with France for the most part, and would be going back and forth between Sweden and Russia. Naples/Italy wouldn't like any of the Muslim nations and probably would be very religious, friends with any Papal States character. Venice on the other hand would hate Vietnam irrationally and be a sort of bitter character always wanting to become involved with everything that is going on.LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:49, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Italy could be son/daughter of Naples and Venice maybe? :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 14:13, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Russia would be a very proud(perhaps too proud) and very obsessed with new guns and technology, and figuring out how to use it to destroy its enemies(as Russia is the driving force behind much of the world's military technology, and technology in general (ex. Industrialization, Aviation, Icebreakers, etc...)). He always likes wearing elequant outfits, although his house can get messy at times, and sometimes likes to slack up rules for people living in it so that they dont move out and be happy, but does not tolerate violence in his house. Russia is always getting himself into fights hating when somebody even treatens to take something of his or take people living with him away, and has gotten good at it. the only time the others got close to bringing him down is when they all teamed up against him. Russia has grey-blue eyes. He can be the Son of Moscow and Novgorod, with Grandfather Byzantine Empire, Grandmother Kievan Rus. His other family would include Uncle Greece(Son of Byzantium), other Slavic countries can be his cousins. His little Sibblings Ukraine(fond of Swords)and Belarus, Cousin Poland, Married to Lithuania, and Lithuania's little Brother Latvia are living in his house. Poland and Lithuania had a divorce, in witch hungary took Maiden Poland's side and Russia Lithuania's. Russia tried many times to try to convince Poland and Lithuania to come back together and live with him, witch they after about 4 or 5 attempts, although Poland is often complaining about the agreement, as Belarus is often popping into their affairs.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:16, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat would be a youngish character who often feels unsure on who to support when someone goes to war with another. Bharat would be a male in military uniform with normal length black hair who also likes weapons (hey Russia hasn't always got there first, we built the dreadnought first). Dravidia is his brother and Afganistan is his wife, which he had to fight Persia to get as Persia wasn't allowing the marriage. He would live in a bigish house which he has extended to be able to fit 3 people into. Persia would be something of a distant relative who with relations have soured. :D Imperium Guy 07:14, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

New Lithuania (Gabrielė Laurinaitienė) is a soft-spoken introvert who welcomes new friends into her heart after she gets to know them. She has shoulder-length dark brown hair tied in a ponytail and green eyes. She is afraid that Russia will come to take her away, as he did with her father Lithuania.


 * Hey. "Laurinaitis" is a male name in lithuanian. You should use "" or "Laurinaitytė". :) Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 15:03, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. As an Ango-Candian I am unused to male and female varients to last names.
 * Yank 23:34, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan (Mei Xiao) is a a strong-willed, fashionable young woman who has moments where she can't stop worrying about things. She has long brown hair with a wild curly strand sticking out on the right side of her head and amber eyes. She always wears pink flowers in her hair, and typically wears a pink qipao to match.

Myanmar (U Aung Paing) is a traditonal and optimistic young man, whose belief in local superstitions can often reach near-comical levels. He has short black hair and has dark brown eyes.

Britain (Angus Wallace) is a friendly and brave gentleman with an appreciation for fine culture. He has bright red hair, extremely bushy eyebrows and bright blue eyes. He is never seen not wearing a kilt or balmoral hat.

Hungary: I don't have a idea for the personality of Hungary.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:23, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

You could look up the personality of Hetalia's Hungary and use that.

Yank 18:24, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

{C {C {C By using this site I edited a bit the looks and designs of Finland, Shogunate of Kōshi, and Moriyää (seen on right.) off from the OTL 東方Project characters of Kogasa Tatara, Satori Komeiji, and Reimu Hakurei. -Kogasa 05:19, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

I named my cat Satori :3 CrimsonAssassin 21:06, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

That's cute. :D, lol. -Kogasa 21:19, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Erm, not too sure how I would like Nippon to be, I guess he is sort of quiet but then once he has an interest in something he never shuts up about it. He'd also be very powerful and enjoy sailing/sumo/profit-making. He also likes to try and solve other people's problems but secretly its for his own gain. He's also very protective of Finland, and envious of the large empires of China, Russia and France. Very good friends with Finland, Vietnam, China, the commonwealth & USA. He also has a love of food, art and martial arts.

The Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha I'm not sure how to be. I'll come back to them at a later date...

The USA would be quite bold and rash, he would also be quite philosophical and righteous but also a bit of a bully to his weaker neighbours. However he is always looking out for numero uno, and will do whatever is best for him, (doesn't care too much about friendships cause he thinks everyone should be his friend because he's so great.) A bit arrogant too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:40, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Also, for Mystiää, she looks similar to OTL Nazrin and she is a cold-hearted person who always seems to isolate herself from most people, other than the ones who either think similar to her or she actually trusts. Her only friend would be Käwäshiro, and her sworn enemy would be Pahang. -Kogasa 14:15, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Revision of Characters
And, for Saigyō, she would be Kōshi's and Brunei's older sister or something. She is protective and knows lots of fighting moves, particularly Kung Fu and what-not. Also would be a skilled swords-master. -Kogasa 23:30, June 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say more like a son, as Brunei would probably be male and Koshi female. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 13:52, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. Saigyō's the older sister. Brunei is the brother of her, and Kōshi is the younger sister of her. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 14:02, July 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Why so? <:) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 14:21, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because I like, prefer, and rather have female characters. That's all. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 14:25, July 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then she could be their daughter! :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 14:49, July 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I was planning on, lol. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 15:18, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't Finland be blonde? She is a nordic country after all. Yank 15:27, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, though Sweden would maybe have blonde hair; but really, the Nordic countries could have any coloured hair (don't really know why blonde hair is associated with the Nordics, specifically Swedes). Finland has blue hair, because the colours of the flag (I went with the colours from the flag instead; so as OTL Kogasa Tatara has mostly white/blue colour (save for her red coloured eye), I chose her to represent Finland ATL, though made her red coloured eye blue as well). -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 15:32, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that we should probably stick to just using "natural" hair colours. The reason why blonde hair is asociated with Nordic countries is because they have the highest percentage of blondes in Europe. It's the same reason why OTL Hetalia's Japan has black hair and brown eyes. Yank 15:42, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. As for using natural hair colours, I understand, but I personally think it's nice to see a character having a hair colour other than the natural. There isn't really allot characters that have green, blue, purple, pink hair etc. If you really don't like the other hair colours, then I can change it if you like. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 16:01, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Another reason why Finland should be blonde is that they should resemble an anime version of the Suomi-neito personification that you created. Yank 20:53, July 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well TTL Finnish Maiden was supposed to have black/dark brown hair but I forgot to tell CassAnaya (who photo-shopped the Finnish Maiden to have her wear Reimu Hakurei's clothes and all; seen here) to make her have dark hair. So, TTL Finland will be based off OTL Reimu Hakurei. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:06, July 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have Finland based off OTL Reimu Hakurei, but with blonde hair instead. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:21, July 7, 2012 (UTC)[[Image:Suomi_Hetalia 2 (PM).png|thumb|75px|Finland revised]]

Ok, revision time:

Bharat (Ashok Kumar) would be quite a nice but imperialistic character. He is quite supportive of Finland. as well as Finland, who could live in his house quite soon. He is also very supportive of Nippon, who he manages to put up with through all his blabber. Bharat aslo likes Cricket and loves to blabber about it, often annoying other countries.

Dravidia (Vankataswar Kumar) would be a very supporting and innovative character. Bharat's brother, he was locked up by Italy, but Bharat came to his resuce. Dravidia supports, and has supported, Bharat in his every move with only one exception in World War I (Communist Wars). He also loves Cricket, but does get quite annoyed with Bharat when he goes on and on about it.

Afghanistan (Shruti Kumar) would also be quite an innovative character, who has gone through a lot to become Bharat's wife. She was locked up by Persia but Bharat came to its rescue because he loved her. She loves to roam around and see new things, but this has caused problems. She also likes to try new clothes and styles, some of which haven't always worked.

Onguayal (need to work out a name) would be a very close friend of Bharat. Bharat helped get Onguayal back on its feet after Onguayal became a confused Character. Onguayal shares Bharat's love for Cricket and he usually talks about it with Bharat and can go on for hours. Onguayal is also very imperialistic, and loves to take other people's ideas and make them better

That's all I think!! :D Imperium Guy 14:20, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Kenia

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:2
 * Strength:Kenia (M)
 * Motive:3
 * Expansion:
 * Military Expansion:
 * Puppet States:
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Bale

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength:Bale (L):4
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:0
 * Chance:3
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Discussion
This is for the war between Kenia and Bale.

Yank 01:36, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Map problem (1910)
Where's Toyosaari, Finnish colony that's located on OTL Azores islands established in 1907? It's under another nation for some reason, or is there something I'm missing and I didn't notice? -Kogasa 22:21, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * exactly. Azores is Portuguese. i forgot to color it grey, so still is dark green. i think that you thought that it was black.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:59, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing its the same for Maderia and Nippon then? Dammit I knew it was a bit too good to be true VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:45, May 26, 2012 (UTC).
 * Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:26, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

In 1905, South Africa Expanded into the rest of the Black territory via direct expansion. INstead of that, Hugary's colony expanded into that territory. Also, THe Russian Colony in New Zealand became a country a while back.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:34, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

There's still two itsaygahian states not annexed to itsayghai in the map, thoguh I did annex them, and they're shown light-blue. Ricasolia should also be in blue as it is a province of the Caribbean Federation. The Frre Republic of New Tsalagi (former guinean colony of Itsaygahi) is still not shown. The territory I sold to Bharat is also not shown. And, again, Adal is not shown in its fulle xtension, that is, all the black territory beneath it. --Galaguerra1 23:54, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Which territory?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:59, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha hasn't been expanded again! Please stop forgetting about my precious commonwealth Collie. Oh and for the record how much can the commonwealth actually expand in 1 year? Cause I can start posting pixel amounts of expansion for commonwealth so it stands out more on the page for you VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:03, May 26, 2012 (UTC).

Could you add colour to Berlin too. EzraNYC 13:39, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I need to invent a new one, and i need to wait until i'm convinced that i won't waste that color (as in if you go to inactivity in a short period of time afetr entering.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:28, May 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Totally understand EzraNYC 21:41, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Persia

 * Location:1
 * Tactical Advantage:2
 * Strength:Persia (L):4
 * Motive:5
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:1
 * Puppet States:0
 * Chance:4
 * 4*4=16
 * Editcount=5111
 * 5111/16*pi=1003.54
 * Stability:1.9^1.25/1.25^1.9*2.5*8=29
 * Total:46

Caribbean Federation

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (invasion by sea, high ground)
 * Strength: Isolque (L), Haiti (MV), Ricasolia (M), Mixxixxippi (MV), USA (M), Muisca Confederation (MV), UKKnAnF (M), Dongfang (M), Nouvelle-Patagonie (M), Nouvelle-Champagne (M), Itsaygahi (M), New Tsalagi (MV), Malouinas (M)=36
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion:-2
 * Military Expansion: 7
 * Chance:7
 * 2*2*6=24
 * Editcount=1009
 * 1009/24*pi=132.07
 * Stability:2.8^1.25/1.25^2.8*2.5*8=38
 * Total:102

Result
A huge Caribbean Federation victory. The CF can take ((102/(102+46))*2)-1=37.83% of Persia at most, depending on how long the war lasts. If the war lasts at least 5 years, the Caribbean Federation will be able to topple the Persian government with (37.83)*(1-1/(2*5))=34.05% of Persian territory taken.

Discussion
I might have missed some of the military buildup for the Caribbean Federation, as we have so many nations now! (another reason so that players can only play as one former colony at a time in the next game). LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:22, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

So, Caribbean Federation... what will be done to Persia? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:24, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

The war will last until 1913, this is five years. Then I'll occupy Persia, making it a vassal/colony of the Caribbean Federation. Itsaygahi will make the brazilian colony a vassal called the Free Republic of Persepolis. And the former Vicia will become an independent nation under my control, the Republic of Vicia.

If RWG wants to keep playing, fine, but not Persia. He could play this new Iraq sultanate, but I'd prefer him to not, as he just messes my plans for the muslim world.--Galaguerra1 20:53, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Break
I'm going to be gone again for a while, because my dad just died, so please don't mess with Korea. I will be neutral in all wars (if I can) and technology and learning will still flourish. Thanks, PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs)

(Moved to the talk page)
I quit this game! It's been a crap ton load on me and I can't take it anymore! I really hope the next one to come out so I would not have a bad start! THE END! RandomWriterGuy 01:34, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Extracted from the Main Page

 * Denmark is pissed that Norway, above all, left Denmark and meanwhile says something to Berlin: If we give you Denmark, this nation would be renamed, into Sweden, do you see? Meanwhile, a man from the southernmost part of Denmark acquires the designs for a Berlin tank and sells these to the government, who begin producing some, though not many. The Prime Minister order a naval blockade on Norway and troops are sent to Greenland to secure the area. The National Football (European football) Tournament, a nationwide famous sporting event, is cancelled until the global economy recovers and to accomplish the same goal, Denmark asks all nations to hold off war and other things of the such until the Depression is over.
 * France supports Denmark in this hard times, as France is a long time ally of Sweden and hates to see the countyr falling apart.
 * Berlin declares war on Denmark. Berlin ask Russia to follow suit. Berlin mobilizes its military and rolls out more tanks.
 * Wales asks that a cease fire can be reached between Denmark and Berlin. Wales states that war will only harm both nations and they should wait until the global economy stabilizes. Wales will claim neutrality, unless otherwise provoked. Mean while Wales requests an alliance with France to help insure European peace
 * The USG condem this war as unecessary and imeprialist, but the Franfurt Treaty proposal is still on.
 * What the hell? That's completely retarded! This is retarded because: A: Berlin is extremely weak now, especially with the Depression, B: You have no reason to invade, do you see again? C: We were offering you help! D: You agreed to help us if Russia invades! D: Now Wales will definitely not help you, because Wales has agreed to send help to Denmark in case of invasion/war and Denmark has offered Wales help against Vietnamese Britain. You are the one who will fall in this war.
 * Denmark asks France for help against Berlin and declares war.
 * France won't help you. They are under a 10 year non agression treaty with Berlin. Also, BERLIN never agreed to help you with anything.
 * Wales states that if France joins the war, so to then must Wales, as Wales is now in an alliance with France. Also Wales offers to sell 100 Thunderbolt 109's to France and Denmark to help keep the peace. (the Thunderbolt 109 is modeled after the Messerschmitt b109)
 * Wales sends financial and food aid to BOTH Berlin and Denmark as a gesture of good will and a hope that the conflict can be resolved. Wales cannot attack Berlin do to a non aggression pact signed last turn, however Wales wishes to remain neutral in ALL THREATRES OF WAR.
 * Ahem France To quote your own forgetful self: "France supports Denmark in this hard times, as France is a long time ally of Sweden and hates to see the country falling apart." BUT THE POINT IS, I DIDN'T SAY YOU AGREED TO ANYTHING, ALL I ASKED FOR WAS HELP. IS THAT TOO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
 * THIS WAS ME (BERLIN) TALKING! NOT FRANCE!
 * Denmark accepts Thunderbolt 109s gratefully.
 * I didn't psot, Berlin's player was who posted that about France not going to war with Berlin. If Berlin invades Denmark, then I'll have to intervene, as it's too near my country and it will affect the whole Europe in crisis. Really, the last very year Berlin and Denmark were allies,a s far as I know, and now you Tare invading Denmark? In the middle of a crisis? I would be glad if you think on this and decide to not go to war and sign the treaty I propsoed you below.
 * If you intervene then that would be a breach of our treaty. Berlin will sign your treaty proposed as long as you do not intervene in Denmark.
 * Wales asks that you please reconsider your position. Both our nations are small and a war of this magnitude could ruin the world economy even more than what has happened already. Do you want to collapse? Because that is what will happen. Wales will grant economic aid as the nation was not hit as hard as the rest of Europe if you'll simply BACK DOWN!
 * Berlin refuses this offer. We ask Wales to please stay neutral in this war as they have alliances with Denmark AND Berlin. 
 * I (Wales) made a mistake earlier on, I am new to Map Games and did not understand certain aspects, now I have unintentionally back-stabbed an ally over this stupid war. I will remain neutral and apologize to Berlin, my ally, it will not happen again. Also Denmark, I am sorry for messing up by allying myself to you AND Berlin. I was thinking last night that you two might become allies(at least temporarily). So I made a mistake that has harmed both your nations, I apologize sincerely to the both of you and hope this war ends soon.
 * 'Attention, I just think what is happening recently is retarded: Just last year Berlin and Denmark allied, this year Berlin is invading. This year, Denmark is allied with Wales. Meanwhile, France offered aid to Denmark, but then Berlin jumps in making people think France was writing when it was really Berlin talking. You're supposed to write like this: Berlin: XYZ. Meanwhile, the whole world has fallen into a economic depression/recession, but Berlin takes the time to INVADE AN ALLY. Meanwhile Berlin says France will not intervene, but France says it will if Berlin goes to war with Denmark.'
 * Of course you think its retarded, because your the one who's getting invaded!!! Also I was not your ally last year! Thirdly, I DID NOT PRETEND TO BE FRANCE!!!!! I EVEN CLARIFIED SAYING "THIS IS BERLIN, NOT FRANCE" AFTERWORDS when there was confusion. Now your freaking out because your scared of loosing the war.
 * Okay, if that's what you think (even if you spelled most of it wrong), I'll let the others fight. You fight against Wales, Finland's puppets, vassals, whatever, and France. You fight against Andrew, and Galeguerra. Then, keyword: "Afterwards." And we were allies! I promised to be your ally if need came for you to fight against the UGS! Anyways, I quit until this issue is resolved. I'm on strike.
 * News flash but I am not fighting with Wales (we are allys), Finland (never even spoken to them or mentioned ANYTHING about them ever), nor France (we have a effing peace treaty. No! Its just you!! But quiting; yeah thats the mature way of handeling it! And FYI I am on a mobile device which makes things a little freaking hard!!
 * Non of you is quitting. Berlin, this is stupid. You did accept the danish offer last year in case you declared war on me, and then you're invading it during a global recession. France will side with Denmark if you insist in this. Also, if you're getting Austria into this, and Denmark is involving Wales and Finland, not to mention its vassals, we're having a huge war that only will make the economical situation of Europe worse. If you still plan on make war, then we're all doomed. I ask you deeply, sign a non-agression pact with Denmark, become allies again, sign the German Cooperation Treaty (Denmark is welcome to sign it too). We'll help you conquering the two remaining german state wouth of you.
 * Denmark agrees to a cooperation treaty. And I'll not quit, for everyone's sake. Denmark will also help take Czechland and that other nation.
 * That other nation is Silesia, and Bohemia/Czechland is not a German state.
 * Wales requests that a European Council be formed by Wales, France and anybody else in Europe that will help prevent things like this from happening in the future (sort of like OTL European Union) 
 * I DID NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING!!! SHOW ME WHERE I ACCEPTED ANYTHING FROM DENMARK! Show me!!! Also, Austria has already declared war on Denmark with me. And if you declare war on me then your breaching our treaty. I WILL NOT BACK DOWN.
 * 'God this reminds me of...well...me during war...and people bashing me for it...and me franticaly trying to persuadew others not to go to war with me, scared to loose. Although, I do think I was a bit more controlled, but whatdo I know, when i am desperate I dont know what i'll do. I propose we just move this to the talk page. its realy clotting up the main page, and thats always kind of annoying.
 * Ok then. To the talk!

Russia

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage:1
 * Russia(L)/Poland-Lithuania-Belarus(M)/Novorossiya(MV)/South Africa(MV)/Iroquois(SV)/South-Pacifica(MV)/Armenia(MV): 16
 * Motive:3(Economic)
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:11
 * Puppet States:-4
 * Chance:2495/4*pi=959.56
 * Stability:4.1^1.25/1.25^4.1*2.5*9=52
 * Total:88

Moldovia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Moldovia(L): 4
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance:1
 * Stability:55.5^1.25/1.25^55.5*2.5*7=0
 * Total:20

Result
Russia demolishes Moldova, they can take ((88/(88+20))*2)-1=62.96% of Moldova, enough to capture their government and take all their territory in one year.

Discussion
This may be the easiest war yet. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:10, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Berlin

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Berlin (L), Austria (M), Dravidia (S), Keralans (SV), Sri Lanka (SV), Bharat (M), Onguayal (MV), Bihar (MV): 18
 * Puppet States: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * Editcount=230
 * Time=2*3*5*5=150
 * Chance=230/150*pi=4.81
 * Stability: 4.3^1.25/1.25^4.3*2.5*7=41
 * Total: 76

Denmark

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Denmark (L), Shogunate of Kōshi (M), Republic of Kazami (MV), Eesti Vabariik (MV), Wales (M), France (S), Flanders (MV), USG (MV), Nubia (S): 23
 * Puppet States: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 2
 * Chance: 1
 * Editcount=4516
 * Time=2*1=2
 * Chance=4516/2*pi=7093.71
 * Stability: 2.5^1.25/1.25^2.5*2.5*7=31
 * Total: 69

Result
Berlin win.

Discussion
This is obviously not finished yet but so far I think I got it all correct. Could someone please try to finish it and then review it. ALSO, this war may be just beginning and could drag in all of Europe. This is just the preliminary algorithim and is very likely to change.

France said they were joining the war on Denmark's side as well as USG and Flanders. Nubia is also aiding Denmark

In northern Africa, they are sending supplies to France via Italy (and some military aid I think)

Where the heck is Nubia? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:11, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Ancient Sudan.-Althistoryman11.

Vietnam may soon side with Denmark.

'''There is no need to post speculation on this page. Especially before the player has yet to respond to you at all. That's misrepresenting.'''

Where is Eesti Vabariik??

Eesti Vabariik is Estonian for Estonia Republic and thus it's roughly OTL Estonia. It is just under Finland and borders the Gulf of Finland, and is bordered by Russia. -Kogasa 14:06, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

This is probably the wrong place to put this, but Wales and Nubia invaded Ethiopia and plan to split the nation. Do you need an algorithm? Andr3w777 19:29, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:25, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

To end the war Berlin proposes the Treaty of Cardiff (Principia Moderni).

No. Now Finland has joined the war, quote: "Prime Minister Katriin Mägi accepts the Danish alliance and continues helping the Danish in their war against Berlin" You see? 'Tis now the Danes, France, Finland, Eesti Vabariik, Koshi, Wales I think, I also believe UGS joined unless I am misinterpreting the game. This war is far from over. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:35, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

The USG did join. They're already listed and in the algorithm. And Finland has not declared war. That country is not controlled by you.

Did you read what I quoted? "Prime Minister Katriin Mägi accepts the Danish alliance and continues helping the Danish in their war against Berlin " Finland is sending aid, see? Just ask Kogasa. Kogasa, it is indeed military aid, is it not? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:47, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Ah wait, pardon me, that was Finland talking for EV. 'Scuse me. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:49, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Question: Could one of the mods check when Berlin and Denmark declared war? I recall doing it just minutes after the Berlin declaration. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:59, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

That wouldn't change anything.

Berlin, Denmark, France, and Wales all sign the Treaty of Cardiff. The war offically ends.

France

 * Location: 4
 * Attacker's adventage: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength:France (L), Germany (MV), Flanders (MV), Castille (MV): 10
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -1
 * Military Expansion: 14
 * Puppet States: -1
 * Chance: ?
 * Stability: ?
 * Total: 32 + S + C

Spanish Coallition

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Aragon (L), Navarra (M), Catalonia (M) 10
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 7
 * Stability: 24 (2.2^1,25/1,25^2,2x6x2,5)
 * Total: 57

Result
Still to be determined

Discussion
I ask for vietnamese help, as they promised me to support my claims on Spain if I suppported their claims on Morocco ( think its Morocco, I remember we made this pact). --Galaguerra1 19:17, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Tangiers will join in the next turn as long as France promises to join the planned invasion of Morocco in 1920. Also can someone please help mefinish the algorithms for the two wars I started?

Yank 20:17, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

France will help you in your war, then. --Galaguerra1 21:22, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

The population number for Aragon is six because i think that is unlikely that a small territory like that contain more than 1 million people.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:32, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, since nobody's doing the stability, the most optimist result would be a slight French victory.not enough to annex them.maybe some border territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:52, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

No, France needs 26 points to win. They might not even get that. Gal just do your chance and stability scores like the rest of us have to.

Also since when did we do coalition wars? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:59, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to say that since nobody was doing the stability (because i don't have any idea of when was the last government change on France), i guessed through what i think that are average stability numbers (somewhere between 21 and 26), that the most optimistic result would be a narrow French victory.

Yeah I know that, I'm just against Gal being let off because he ain't done this algorithm. Not fair to the rest of us who do our algorithms. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:27, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

What year was it that France broke their coalition with Russia and overthrow the son of the guy who conquered all those places? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:33, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Somewhere between 1874 and 1885.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:53, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Joining?
Hello, I was wondering if I could join Principa Moderni (late I know). Can anyone suggest any free nations and details about them, because I haven't really been keeping track of what happened in the game, other than most of Northern Europe seems to be Japanese-inflluenced. If anyone could help me here, that would be great.

Monster Pumpkin 21:42, May 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nothing's realy japanese-influenced, that's just Finland-Lx (leave me a message) 23:05, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

If you are looking for a european nation, you could be one of the Spanish States or Portugal, other than that...well, there are african states available.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:05, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

The Netherlands and Prussia are Japanese-influenced as well. We have a ton of nations in Europe now, it would be nice if you were somewhere else. You could ask if anyone has any vassals or former colonies or something which they are willing to let you play as. I could give you Pahang (the yellow area where Malaysia and parts of Indonesia are) next year if you want. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:29, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

I have a lot of vassals, puppets and former colonies if you want some of them. Iran, Itsaygahi, Malouinas, the United Kingdom of Kanada, Novo-Armannak and Nova-Frankía, etc... If you're interested in the MIddle East, then you could join as the recntly independent Sultanate of Iraq. --Galaguerra1 01:13, May 30, 2012 (UTC) {C The same as Lx.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:35, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

I could be Iraq, if someone could fill me in on what is going on over there. Also, Spain seems to have been taken and all the other states were conquered, is that correct? Monster Pumpkin 19:42, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Iraq was a part of Persia a couple years ago. When Persia attacked the Republic of Mixxixxipi, which is a vassal of the Caribbean Federation, they obviously lost, and Iraq became independent while the rest of Persia became a caribbean vassal. Since then, the Caliphate of Arabia have tried to protect Iraq from the influence of Bharat and the Federation. So you would be an ally of Arabia and, if you want, the new government of Iran. --Galaguerra1 19:57, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

So I am free to join as Iraq then? Monster Pumpkin 00:44, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon

 * Location: 2


 * Attacker's advantage: 1


 * Motive(Social): 6


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Update: 14


 * Nippon(L)/Chamoru(MV)/Brunei(MV)/Sunda(M)/Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha(M)/USA(M)/Muisca(MV)/Finland(M)/Eesti Vabariik(MV)/Shogunate of Kōshi(M)/Republic of Kazami(MV), Bharat (M), Bihar (MV): 34


 * Chance: 4
 * Time:1x2x2 = 2
 * Editcount: 3,844
 * 3,844/2 x pi = 6,038.14108


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 4.1^1.25/1.25^4.1*2.5*8 = 47


 * Total: 118

Republic of Malaya

 * Location: 5


 * Motive(Life or death): 10


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military update: 0


 * Republic of Malaya(L): 4


 * Chance: 8 (RNG)


 * Participation: 10


 * Stability: 1


 * Total: 38

Result
((113/(113+38))*2)-1 = 0.496688742

Nipponese victory. Nippon has right to 50% of Malayan territory, thus causing the Malayan government to collapse.

Discussion
I can make Malaya a puppet state right? Then I take over Dayak next turn, and then combine them all into the Sultanate of Brunei. I claim Dayak, and will be invading next turn. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:31, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

You can't exactly make it into a "sultanate" as it is 85%+ hindu. The player of Brunei stated that when he played the game. It could be more like the Brunei Raj. :P Imperium Guy 11:41, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

I thought it already was a sultanate, as OTL Brunei is Muslim & it was in this game, so when did it change to a raj? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:47, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

I just had a look threw Brunei's past posts, they are majority Hindu, but the royal family is Muslim. As in 1836 Brunei is concerned with the war against Muslims (as the royal family is Muslim) and in 1823 it talks about the white peace between Hindu nobles and Muslim royal family. The country is split up by religion (from largest to smallest): Hindu, Muslim, Christian, other religions. There is no mention of 85% hindu though, I'd say more like 61% Hindu, 25% Muslim, 5% Christain, and 9% other (buddists, schistists, etc.) I also assume its quite a secular nation since there is such a diverse range of religion. Anyway Brunei is a sultanate, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:19, May 31, 2012 (UTC).

If the royals are Muslim, they might still use the Sultan title for themselves. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:34, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Tbh, I thought that I saw one of Brunei's post saying that they were *)% hindu etc but oh well. I'll invade Dayak and hand it over to you in a year or two (even Bharat has redone its army and needs to test it somewhere!!). :P Imperium Guy 18:00, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Don't you worry, I'm invading Dayak myself! Feel free to send military aid/forces to back me up though. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:40, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

I kinda declared war on them in '16, after your post. :/ Imperium Guy 11:02, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

How to Vassal a country?
I wan't to vassal Czechland(The Nation above me) but do I have to go to war or do what I'm doing Diplomatic marriage?-Althistoryman11

I was currently planning on vassalizing that country since it's modern and traditional Germany land. EzraNYC 20:57, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Ah.

Sorry man. Since you helped me so much in the war I'd like to make a pact with you saying that if your ever attacked, Berlin will immediatly declare war on the attacker with you.

Alright thanks.-Althistoryman11.

Who put this up here?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:04, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Willster22. I've removed it. Lordganon 07:52, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I will remove it if you want it. I was just wondering how to.-Althistoryman11.

LOL, Czechland is not traditional German land whatsoever, they are not German or even Germanic, and were not ever ruled over by Germany in this map game. Religiously they are closer to Austria than Berlin. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:33, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

I have plans to vassal South Ireland, how would I go about doing that? Andr3w777 17:41, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Russia

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage:1
 * Russia(L)/Poland-Lithuania-Belarus(M)/Novorossiya(MV)/South Africa(MV)/Iroquois(SV)/South-Pacifica(MV)/Armenia(MV): 16
 * Motive:3(Economic)
 * Expansion:-1
 * Military Expansion:0
 * Puppet States:-4
 * Chance: 0
 * 2*2*3*1= 12
 * 2505/12 *pi= 655.8 0 74
 * Stability: 4.2^1.25/1.25^4.2*2.5*9= 52.99 ~ 53
 * Total: 71

Danubia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Danubia(L): 4
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance:9 (random)
 * Stability: 0.1^1.25/1.25^0.1*2.5*7=1
 * Total: 29

Result
Crushing Russian Victory. Russia is able to take ((71/(71+26)) -0.5) *2=42% of Danubia, Enough to Topple the Governement. Russia Annexes Bessarabia.

Discussion
Bessarabia? when you annexed Moldavia you already obtained it. it makes no sense fight for Bessarabia when you already control it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:28, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

The Rest of Bessarabia controlled by wallacia, and I wanted the part that bordered the black sea, Moldavia only had part of Bessarabia, and DAnubia had the rest. And also, I didnt like how their border lookd with that little part bordering russia and the black sea.-Lx (leave me a message) 12:50, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon

 * Location: 2
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Motive (Social): 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Update: 2
 * Nippon(L)/Chamoru(MV)/Brunei(MV)/Sunda(M)/Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha(M)/USA(M)/Muisca(MV)/Finland(M)/Eesti Vabariik(MV)/Shogunate of Kōshi(M)/Republic of Kazami(MV), Bharat (M), Bihar (MV) & Wales (M): 37
 * Chance: 4
 * Time:1x2x5x3 = 30
 * Editcount: 3,861
 * 3,861/30 x pi = 404.3’’’2’’’29745
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 4.3^1.25/1.25^4.3*2.5*8 = 47
 * Total: 109

Dayak Confederacy

 * Location: 5
 * Motive(Life or death): 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military update: 0
 * Republic of Malaya(L): 4
 * Chance: 4 (RNG)
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 0.3^1.25/1.25^0.3*2.5*6 = 3
 * Total: 36

Result
((109 / (109 + 36))* 2)-1 = 0.503448276 {C Nipponese victory. Nippon has right to 50% of Dayak territory, thus causing the Dayak government to collapse.

Discussion
I just did it myself Imp. I just said that a small Bharati force was already attacking the Dayaks, and then the army which just invaded Malaya came and joined in. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:05, June 1, 2012 (UTC)

Tbh, I have no problem with that as I would have given it to you anyway. :D Imperium Guy 13:51, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Wales

 * Location: 4


 * Tactical Advantage: 2


 * Wales (L), German Union (M), Denmark (MS): 12


 * Puppet States: 0


 * Motive: 5


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Expansion: 7


 * Chance: 0


 * Editcount=515


 * Time=02:52:34=16


 * Chance=515*16*3.14=25873.60


 * Stability: 4.3^1.25/1.25^4.3*2.5*7=41
 * Total: 72

South Ireland

 * Location: 5


 * Tactical Advantage: 0


 * South Ireland (L): 4


 * Puppet States: 0


 * Motive: 10


 * Expansion: 0


 * Military Expansion: 0


 * Chance: 6


 * Stability: 0.3^1.25/1.25^0.3*2.5*7=4


 * Total: 28

Result
Welsh victory, at most Wales can take ((72/(72+28))* 2)-1=44.00% of the Southern Irish, enough to take over the South Irish government if the war lasts at least 2 years, as (44%)*(1-1/(2*2))=33.00%.

Discussion
The basic alogrithm is complete. If somebody could compute the stability and Total that would be swell. Andr3w777 04:32, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Wales' stability should be higher, as they have been independent since they broke away from Itsaygahi without any stability change, when the player takes over the nation doesn't matter for stability unless their first turn is to found the nation or change its government. I will find the year and recalculate it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:46, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Good job on doing your algorithm yourself. :) LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:21, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

I actually did it. EzraNYC 19:17, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Good job then, it annoys me when people come begging to make the algorithm and no wars are made. The problem is with the chance though, it is the tenths digit, even if that digit is 0. Doesn't change anything though really. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:20, June 2, 2012 (UTC)

Denmark
Location: close to the location of the war: 3

Tactical Advantage: 1

Denmark (L,+4), Wales (M,+3), Koshi (M,+3), Eesti Vabariik (M,+2), Nippon (M,+3), Kazami (M,+2)

Military Developement: 1

Expansion:0?

Motive: 5(political)

Chance: 8 Total: 71
 * Time UTC: 1x7x5x5=175
 * Edit Count: 4647
 * Chance = 175x4647x3.14=83.380454
 * Stability:26
 * Participation:10

Norway
Stability:8
 * Location: 3
 * Tactical: 0
 * Strength: Norway (L, +4), Britain (M, +3)
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: RNG (1-10, 10)
 * Participation:10
 * Total: 45

Result
71/119 -0,5x2 = 0.193277310 Danish victory: Denmark has right to 19.3 % of Norwegian territory.

Discussion
I think I did it right, but no one has responded to my call of war yet. If one of the mods could check it over, it would be appreciated. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 17:15, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, allies have joined me. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:40, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Best Way to actualy do an Algorithm is to Take one from an actual war that you know has been faught. Copy-Paste that onto a Word Document, then Delete all the Info about the actual war, leaving only a template. then Copy-Paste the Template you have for each Nation(the nation names, result and discussion are the only things that should be heading 3), and then fill in the blanks.-Lx (leave me a message) 20:51, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

NPC's have chances too.they are determined by Random Number generators.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:11, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Ok I did one. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:13, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

And i 've finished the algorythm.except for the results.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:26, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

How long do you want the war to last, Scrawland? As that determines how much territory you can take. I think it would be more plausible to take the Canadian territory and not the mainland Norweigan territory, as you would have to have toppled the government of Norway to do that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:54, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Until 1921. I'm taking Greenland -- is that an appropriate size compared to the results? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:06, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues of 1920
The Finnish colony of Toyosaari on OTL Réunion is missing (was established in 1916). -Kogasa 22:08, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

And Georgia is kind of Wierd, and too big. The borders for Russia and Transcaucassia are roughly OTL(They are based on the Caucassus mountain range), and Abkhazia and South ossetia are not part of georgia(they arent actualy geortian nationalities). Also, I had made a map for transcaucassia for reference. I know that its very hard(and it took me about an hour or so to actualy do the borders properly, but you can...nevermind i'll try to do it myself on photoshop.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:16, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I used as base the proposal of the Division of the ottoman Empire.this was when you annexed them.and, the creation of Transcaucasia intrinsically means that Georgia can't be independent.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:27, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Borders of "Georgia" were not there before. At fist Transcaucasia was a way to kind of get around Georgia ecoming grey, but now I realixze that ist a more plausible way for tehm to get their borders and form a governement. I owverlayed the borders on photoshop. mission accomp;lished-Lx (leave me a message) 12:07, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Wales controls the whole of southern Ireland as the war ended this year with the toplling of the Collectivist gov't(see algorithm) Andr3w777 22:18, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Brunei is once again in control of all of Borneo, minus the Russian colony. Brunei is a Nipponese vassal state now too. Plus Nippon gained Mauritius from Brunei as payment for saving Brunei. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:23, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * That isn't a Russian colony.is a Bruneian puppet called Dayak confederacy.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:27, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * The light blue colony on Borneo is a Bruneian puppet? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:17, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * It used to be.but somebody forgot it existed, and created a nation with the same name on the mod event that put Brunei on civil disarray.if it has red borders, is an accident.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * We could do it so the rebelled nation joined the Dayak Confederacy and then the puppet state relinquished itself from Bruneian control. Then the recent war against Dayak Confederacy saw Brunei take control of all the Dayak Confederacy(s). Basically now Brunei controls all of Borneo & Brunei is a Nipponese vassal state now too. If that's alright with you, I'll amend the map to show this, to save you the trouble. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:36, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it is a Russian colony, Italy sold the Italian colony on Borneo to Russia! LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:14, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

I also noticed a mod event in 1916 that united the Romanian and Bulgarians into one nation, Union of Danubia. On the map it shows Romania and Bulgaria separate. Unless they are shown to be subdivided with-in a nation, then never mind. -Kogasa 05:04, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I forgot to do it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Czechland is now a vassal of the German Union. EzraNYC 12:26, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * Same reply as above.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

I expanded my three Australian colonies for two years (15-16), but I don't think it was expanded propotionately. :/ Imperium Guy 15:26, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * You have to either explain me first how do you calculate those values that you put on. the values that you put for Sindu are incompatible for grey areas.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I just went over my calculations, turns out there were wrong. Thanks for the remainder. I'll change the ones I put from 1920. Ok about Sindu, guess I'll just have to go to war. :/ [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 16:36, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Right, so total I can expand is 3800 (for all the colonies and vassals) *3 and *1.5 (for the jungles or aborignal help and the difference between civilization and uncivilization) and *7 (industrial level) bring it upto 119700 km in total (But I would round it up to 120000km). Is that right? :/ [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 16:41, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that you can expand only 60 px originally, because you only have seven colonies/vassals.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:13, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * So the colonies of Afghanistan are Afghanistan's? So I can set another colony in the world (if I wish)? :/ [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 21:15, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of Colonies could you add my colony to the map please in northern australia around Bay of Carberia-Althistoryman11.
 * I added. but is borderless and, i didn't saw you expanding it lately to make it bigger.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:13, June 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, yea I haven't been totally focusing lately.-Althistoryman11.

Denmark

 * Location: close to the location of the war: 3


 * Tactical Advantage: 1


 * Denmark (L,+4), Wales (M,+3), Koshi (M,+3), Eesti Vabariik (M,+2), Nippon (M,+3), Kazami (M,+2)=21


 * Military Developement: 1


 * Expansion:-2


 * Motive: 5 (political)


 * Chance: 4
 * Time UTC: 0*0*2*3=6
 * Edit Count: 4660
 * Chance = 6x4661x3.14=87813.24
 * Stability:3.1^1.25/1.25^3.1*2.5*7=36


 * Participation: 10


 * Total: 79

Norway

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical: 2 (high ground, being attacked from sea)
 * Strength: 9(Norway (L), Italy (M), Calora (MV))
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: RNG (1-10, 10)
 * Participation:10
 * Stability::0.7^1.25/1.25^0.7*2.5*7=9
 * Total: 55

Result:
Danish Victory

Discussion
Could one of the mods finish it? Stability and the such? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:28, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

At least you could wait before you attack Norway again.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:56, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -7
 * Military: 12
 * Allies: Onguayal (LV), Bharat (M), Bihar (MV), Afghanistan (MV), Jaffna (MV): 12
 * Chance: 8
 * Time: 18:50 = 40
 * Editcount: 8090
 * (8090/32)*pi = 635.3 8 71
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 4.0^1.25/1.25^4.0*2.5*9 = 52
 * Total: 98

Andalucia

 * Location: 5
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military: 0
 * Allies: Former colony (L): 4
 * Chance: 2 (RNG)
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 3.0^1.25/1.25^3.0*2.5*8 = 40
 * Total: 71

Result
Onguayali Victory. Onguayal at present can claim ((99/(99 + 71))*2)-1 = 0.164705, 16% of the colony at best right now. However, over negociations, Andalucia keeps al its territories, however it becomes a vassal.

Discussion
Bharat asks for help from allies!! :o Imperium Guy 18:37, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Are we talking south America with this war? All your Bharati vassals and puppets I get jumbled up with :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:46, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Australian Kingdom could send some help next turn, if you're patient enough. :) Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 19:45, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

The former Spanish colony is Andalucia. While I know that we've effectively nullifed Dean's actions as Andalucia, there would be nothing to stop them from fleeing in exile to their colony in Peru.

Yank 00:30, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yes Von, its South America. Australia hasn't sent me help yet!! D: Imperium Guy 19:58, June 6, 2012 (UTC)

Gone for a while
I am going on a trip for the next two weeks, in which I will be totally unable to access the internet whatsoever. Thus, I am leaving some instruction for my nations on this game: Okay, my other nations have formed a common defense league. The below nations will all defend each other, with military aid if attakced: In addition, they will defend the following NPC nations if they are attacked, but the following nations will not help the above nations: Furthermore, if Vietnam is in a war in which Vietnam has a Life or Death motive, they will defend Vietnam with military aid. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:53, June 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Imperium Guy can control Dravidia, since they are in dynastic union.
 * Galaguerra can control Ricasolia, as it is part of the Caribbean Federation
 * Israel will remain isolationist, but if the Caliphate approves of the mutual defense treaty, it will help the Caliphate in any wars in which the Caliphate is the defender.
 * Other nations, see below
 * Italy
 * Calora (vassal of Italy)
 * New Maya (vassal of Italy)
 * Istoias
 * Pahang
 * Norway
 * Iceland
 * Switzerland

Map Issues of year 1925
The Finnish colony of Hyvinkää was annexed by the Shogunate of Kōshi in 1921. Also the union of Bulgaria-Romania (Union of Danubia) was forgotten again as well. -Kogasa 21:32, June 9, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon gained Mauritius from Brunei and colonized those 4 small islands off the coast of North Australia/Shuujin a while back too. Also Natuna island is still in Bruneian colours. Also the USA vassalized Songone (the grey nation to the south of it (Kenny made a map in 1855 showing the new country as shown here)). Also the Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha wasn't expanded again! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:03, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Georgia and Transcaucasia were screwed up agian. I'll fix them. and Please, next time, use the existing map thats posted as Map for the year, and not the map on your computers next time, because when others edit their own nation becasue the borders are wrong, and it was very long to actualy try to make the borders, it is a bit less of but still a pain to make the borders right agian. next time the map is updated, please use the final version that is posted, and download that one, so that the broders are consistent. please.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:42, June 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Didn't i already said that the creation of Transcaucasia directly interferes with Georgian independence? --Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:16, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I too have amended the map for the problems I mentioned above. Please use this map as the base for your next one, as it saves me updating this stuff again next time. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:35, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

China

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Motive: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military: 3
 * Allies: China (L), Tibet (MV), Dongfang (M), Russia (M), Nippon (M), Koshi (M), Republic of Kazami (MV), Finland (M), Eesti Vabariik (MV): 25
 * Chance: 4
 * Time: 01:05 = 5
 * Editcount: 2,477
 * (2477/5)*pi = 1556.3 4 500
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 25
 * Total: 74

Turkistan

 * Location: 5
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military: 0
 * Allies: None
 * Chance: 3
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 1
 * Total: 35

Result
((74/(74+35))*2)-1=.3577

Chinese victory. China may take 35% of Turkistani territory.

Nice to see you all again!
Hi, its me Flagmania. I haven't been on this website for a while (I moved to Alternatehistory.com, and had less time to do things like this in general), but a few of you may remember me as the Ethiopian player for the 18th Century. I think I'm going to rejoin (still haven't decided what nation to play yet, there's a lot to get caught up on in world history), this game until it ends then pick another non-western nation for the Second Principia Moderni (has anyone thought of a real name like 'Principia Moderni Novus' or 'Principia Moderni Secundus').

Anyway, my main concern for the second PM is to prevent there still being black areas of the map in the year 1900!

Even if Eurasians really couldn't or wouldn't colonize every single area of the world except Antarctica, modern nations would've formed in the middle of Africa and the Americas by the 1900s. The main problem with most map games is that they advance too fast (both territorially and technologically), but Principia has the opposite problem. Perhaps the rules limiting colonization should be limited after 1860, and completely removed after 1880.

Also, I left at about 1800...what's happened since then? China and Russia seem to be the same (just expanded a bit), France still dominates, Hanthawaddy seems to have been replaced by Japan, Korea once again exists, and some new nations have formed.

What else? Flagmania 18:12, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Russia won the Norhtern wars in the Long run, With Sweden's Expansionism and oppresion of Finland being its downfall to pro-russian states. Russia has begun decolonizing, and has yielded to micronationalism, creating the Russian commonwelath, a commonwelath of naitons with the Same head of State, but independant governements(eventualy) and a mutual defence pact. -Lx (leave me a message) 21:44, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

Flagmania has spoken my inner thoughts: there are still so many black spots in 1926. Imagine that! I was thinking we should named the new game Secundo Principia Moderni or "The Second Beginning of the Modern" if and when we do start it. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:57, June 10, 2012 (UTC)

I do like Secundo Principia Moderni for the name of the next game. But the thing about the black areas, is that right out in OTL there are still black spots. I mean there are plenty of areas where there really isn't anything but some nation claims sovereignty over them even though they don't have a huge presence there. Still I'd rather this than over-colonization and stuff :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:50, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.parts of Amazonia and Papua could be considered as known examples.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:54, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

USA

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical advantage: 1
 * Nations: USA (L), Muisca (MV), Songone (MV), Commonwealth of Eetoria & Ngainkeha (M), Käwäshiro (M), Onguayal (M), Sunda (M) : 20
 * Military Development: 13
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 6 (social)
 * Chance: ??>
 * Time: 20:30 = 6
 * Edit Count: 3,946
 * (3947 / 6) * pi = 2 066.64437
 * Third digit= 4
 * Final: 4
 * Stability: ((5.4^1.25) / (1.25^5.4)) * 2.5 * 7 = 43.1733927
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 100

France

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical advantage: 0
 * Nations: Native state (L), Flanders (MV), Castille (MV), Russia(M), Novorossiya(MV)/Pan-Celtic Union(M), Denmark (M): 19
 * Military Development: 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 6
 * Chance: ??>
 * Time: 20:30 = 6
 * Edit Count: 1,061
 * (1061 / 6) * pi = 555.538301
 * Third digit= 8
 * Final: 8
 * Stability: ((5.3^1.25) / (1.25^5.3)) * 2.5 * 8 = 49.2891994
 * Participation: 10
 * Current Total: 98

Result
Narrow US victory

((100/(100+98))*2)-1= 0.0101010101

The USA are entitled to 1% of French territory, so of France's 32,357 pixels, the USA get 326 pixels from France.

Discussion
Gonna give this till next year for people to give support in the war, then decide upon final result <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:39, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Right I'm ending it now. The USA sues for peace realising it couldn't win the war in the long term, and there are slight border changes between the US and French colony, as the USA gain a bit of land from the French. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:37, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

You are not winning anymore. Poland is a Member of the EC and now sent aid to France. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:36, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

The Pan Celtic Union did not agree to any peace. France is an ally AND an EC nation, as such we will defend her lands still.Andr3w777 01:47, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

You cannot restart a finished war, Von has already ended it. I have started a new war, looking for a fight, go up against Onguayal, but be ready to lose, I mean it. :P Imperium Guy 09:06, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I ended it, I always intended it to be a short war. Sort of like OTL Russo-Japanese war, in the sense that Japan (here the USA) knew they couldn't beat Russia (here France) in the long run. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:44, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal - French Colony War (1928)
The war for the domination of the French South American colony.

Onguayal

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Onguayal (L), Andalucia (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bharat (M), Dravidia (M), Jaffna (MV), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), USA (M), Muscia (MV), Songone (MV), Sunda (M), Commonwealth (M), Käwäshiro (M), Koshi (M), Kazami (M), Australia (M): 46
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 10
 * Motive: 6
 * Chance: 4
 * Time: 21:58 = 80
 * Edit Count: 8,178
 * (8178 / 80) * pi = 321.1 4 9309
 * Stability: ((4.8^1.25) / (1.25^4.8)) * 2.5 * 9 = 54.772933 = 55
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 132

France

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: France (L), Flanders (MV): 6
 * Military Development: 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 5 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((5.4^1.25) / (1.25^5.4)) * 2.5 * 8 = 49.341020 = 49
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 80

Result
((132/(132+80)*2)-1 = 0.24528

Onguayal defeats France with ease and wins the war. They can claim 25% of French territory. They recieve 8075.25 = 8075 pixels of French territory from 32,301 pixels.

They manage to claim all of the French colony and a bit more.

Discussion
Von, how much is the South American colony in pixels? Imperium Guy 20:30, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

7,459 pixels. But for future reference all you do is copy & paste the territory on the map what your trying to determine the size of, and make it, its own image & look at the pixel count of the image. I use PaintShop Pro 5 to do this, and I'm not sure excatly how you would go about doing this on other image software packages but it can't be too different from that procedure. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:41, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

On paint, you have to count a whole square, and that is not really helpful!! :/ Imperium Guy 12:04, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah you use the magic wand selection tool on PaintShop Pro which basically you can select any part of the image. Paint sucks man, you could get PaintShop Pro 5 for free probably as its soo old :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, June 17, 2012 (UTC).

International Legislation (IL or LoN)
(From the Russian Post 1929)

"This Purpose is to Promote Peace throughout the world, and have a place where world issues can be debated, and "international laws" and war crimes can be tired(although the punishment is to the discression of the home country ), and to deal with refugees and have sanctioned military operations that do not need delerations of war(this will also make surprize attacks illegal under an international code of conduct)[...]Trotsky proposes that French, Russian, Manderin Chinese and Hindi, the Largest Spoken Languages in the world be considered its official languages, a Headquarters be set up in Moscow, and that there wil be a Security council(that will have the higher authority concerning Matters of War) consisting of [option 1] Russia, China, France, Nippon, and 9 rotating members, 3 from the EC, 3 from the AC, and 3 that are members of Neither. However, matters concerning war must have unanimity within the Permenant members of the council."

Option 1 (Vote Here if you Support It)
Russia, France, China, Nippon for Perm

Rotating: 3 EC, 3 AC, 3 Neutral
 * (Enter signature here)

Option 2 (Vote Here if you Support It)
Russia, France, and Denmark from Europe

China, Nippon, and Vietnam from Asia

(3&3)+5 other Non-Perm Members, 2 EC, 2 AC, and 1 non-affiliated.
 * (Enter signature here)

Option 3 (Vote Here if you Support It)
Russia, France, Denmark and Italy

China, Nippon, Vietnam and Bharat

(4&4)+5 other Non-Perm Members, 2 EC, 2 AC, and 1 non-affiliated.


 * Collie Kaltenbrunner
 * -Lx (leave me a message)
 * Imperium Guy
 * Yank

Option 4 (Vote Here if you Support It)
Europe: France, PCU, Denmark, Italy, and Russia

Asia: Nippon, China, Bharat, Vietnam, Brunei, and Arabia or Hanthawaddy (We should include the Middle East if they are interested)


 * Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.
 * Andr3w777

Headquarters
If Anyone else wants any other city, you may add and may discuss changes in the Discussion Section.

Moscow
Russia Proposes Moscow.


 * -Lx (leave me a message)

Neutral City or Copenhagen
Denmark proposes a city in a neutral country or Copenhagen.


 * Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum.
 * Yank

Hamburg
The PCU proposes Hamburg.

Discussion
I chose Hamburg because it is more or less centrally located. I asked for the PCU to join because of prior contributions to world peace as well as helping Russia in the last war.Andr3w777 02:08, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I fixed it. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:36, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Which one i am to join?apparently,Russia and Denmark formed two competing leagues, so which one is the official?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:32, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

They are two ideas for the same league. The Two Naitons just want to Name them Differently. If you read the Ling list of posts after the Russian one in 1929, you would see explinations. The formations and Rules are still under consideration by everyone interested in joining. nothing is set in stone right now. A lot of People misunderstood this. Russia just proposed we name it differently and its functions would be X and organs within it would be Y.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:01, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

So Australian Kingdom is not included just cause it's not an empire and was never at war, right? Cool. Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 13:31, June 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * We are voting for the Perm Members of the Security Council, witch will act seperately from the General Assembly. Look at the UN. Everyone is part of it, but only Certain Natinos are part of the Security Council. And PErmenant Members are Members that Should have enough Militarty Power and Political influence to Uphold Rulings of the Council, the General Assembly, and uphold their own intrests. there will be more members of the Council, they will just rotate. And you are not part of the EC or the AC, so you would probably end up getting the Neutral Spot anyways more times than not.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:47, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

What the hell do you mean? Everyone is a part of it. Read do you not? Only on Permanent Security Council members are we voting. Understand you do not? United Nations you do not know of? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:16, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

The Pan Celtic Union Now has two aircraft carriers and is working on a third. Our military is one of the largest in Eurpoe.(just read all my miltary buildup posts) So can the PCU be at least concidered for a Security Council position? ~Andrew

Bharat has a good 15 carriers and 2 in their shake-down testing. We also have an airforce rivaling many countries and Dravidia and Afghanistan also has its own armed force. This makes the UK ( United Kingdom of Hindustan) one of the most powerful countries in the world. Its associate the Commonweath of Onguayal also helps support Bharat. We definately have the capablity to uphold any decision. Imperium Guy 10:57, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

I nominate Geneva, Switzerland. Yank 15:37, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

France
France has been inactive for a week with no warning beforehand. What's the time period for official inactivity? Is Gal coming back or is he gone? Can I make a post dividing France if he's not coming back?

Yank 03:15, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have read the rules.it's five days.but about this, is the Iraq player inactive? (will he come back, or something?)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:29, June 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * We really need to change this rule. It makes no sense for nations to randomly collapse. I mean France is one of the world's major powers and has been for centuries, for them to randomly collapse isn't very plausible. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:53, June 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, if it was needed, it could start with minor revolts, and lead to their power diminishing over the years, gradually.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:59, June 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * I certainly do prefer that idea, but we still need to let players have more than 5 years before their nation collapses. Maybe we could just turn it into an NPC to save on country colours on the map instead? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:39, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but anybody who joined would take this nation, and what if the guy is as implausible as the Inca player?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:21, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

I sent him a message the other day & got a reply yesterday. He's still playing, probably got exams or something :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:26, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

1930 Map Issues
My same issues from 1925 still stand: The Finnish colony of Hyvinkää was annexed by the Shogunate of Kōshi in 1921 plus union of Bulgaria-Romania (Union of Danubia) is still forgotten (the Bulgarian-Romanian union was a mod event from a while back). -Kogasa 16:31, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, you gave me the idea of them being subdivided within the nation, and i resolved to go with it.and i forgot the (former) finnish colony.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:44, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't know about you went with the subdivision idea; never mind then. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 18:47, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Now, we need agree about the Zulu remnant.apparently, you are going to expand to it, and i, as Dél-Afrika, am claiming it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:01, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean the nation right below Moriyää or the one right above Moriyää? I was actually planning on declaring the war with the nation under Moriyää, but if that's Zulu, then I won't go there, and instead I'll declare war with the nation above Moriyää. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 11:19, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the nation under your colony.and the nation above is called Butwa.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:14, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Brunei bought Russia's colony on Borneo in 1927 too <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:27, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * This one i forgot.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:44, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Finland
Total: 48+47 = 98
 * Location: 2
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Motive (Political): 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Update: 3
 * Nations: Finland(L), Eesti Vabariik(MV), Shogunate of Kōshi (M), Republic of Kazami(MV), Bhārat (M), Dravidia (M), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Nippon (M), Australia (M), Denmark (M): 27
 * Chance: 1
 * Time: 11:54 = 2
 * Edit count: 3,367
 * (3,367 / 2) * pi = 5288.87 1 232
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 4.2^1.25/1.25^4.2*2.5*8 = 47.10527

Butwa
Total:49
 * Location: 5
 * Motive(Life Or Death): 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Update: 0
 * Butwa(L): 4
 * Chance: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 12

Result
((98/(98+49)*2)-1 = 0.333333

Finland wins and can annex 33% of Butwa. They manage topple Butwa's government.

Discussion
Okay, I don't know which one was Zulu (I'm trying to avoid Zulu). But if the African colony above me is actually Zulu then I'll change direction. (Note: Zulu will be avoided as it's claimed by Hungary). -Kogasa 12:02, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'll say 3 on the military expansion since I was helping sending aid in 1927, then in 1928 I continued to build up... unless seiding aid to other wars doesn't count as wasting military expansion... -Kogasa 19:27, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

When was your last change of government?it is needed for stability.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:53, June 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1708, as Republic, independent
 * 1714, Union with Russia
 * 1789+few hours, as Shogunate, independent
 * 1789, Union with France and Sweden
 * 1876 - annexation by Sweden
 * 1889 became Shogunate, independent (fall of Sweden)

Though basically since 1714, Finland had some sort of Emperor (Tsar, King, and now Empress) as head of state and Shogun since around 1789, so much hasn't changed at all. -Kogasa 09:02, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I used 1889 as the last government change. If the mathematics are wrong let me know. -Kogasa 14:37, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, since I won (I think, unless my mathematics are wrong), can I end the war and annex Butwa now (in 1933) or no? If not, how long do I have to wait in order to achieve it? -Kogasa 14:59, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

You can annex it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:16, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Australia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Australia (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 10
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Time: 10:55 = 250
 * Edit count: 2396
 * (2396 / 250) * pi = 30.01 9 023
 * Stability: ((5.5^1.25) / (1.25^5.5)) * 2.5 * 6 = 37.02879
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 66

Bharat

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV), Dravidia (M), Afghanistan (M), Jaffna (MV), Govapuri (M), Nippon (M): 27
 * Military Development: 13
 * Expansion: 2
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 9
 * Time: 11:01 = 1
 * Edit count: 8200
 * (8200 / 1) * pi = 25761.05 9 76
 * Stability: ((2.5^1.25) / (1.25^2.5)) * 2.5 * 9 = 40.28857
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 107

Result
((107 / (107+66)) * 2) -1 = 0.236994

Bharat is wins the war against the Australians and manages to get them to surrender, toppling their government. Australia also enters a dynastical union with Bharat.

Discussion
May I remind you, that my motive is life or death, because you have threatened to declare war on me. :) Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 12:57, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Tbh, I did not use the word threat or threathen in my post. Your motive is purely religious as you are trying to kill hindus. Same with me as I am trying to save them. :P Imperium Guy 13:32, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

My motive is saving the nation of mine. The motive must be 10. Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 14:15, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Sunda is also helping Bharat & you missed it off the algorithm <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:14, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

I am back
I have returned, and I am glad that no one attacked any of my nations, and that colonial expansion appears to have started to pick up. Are there any important changes potentially affecting my nations that I could not see from the main map? LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:10, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Not really. The main development was the USA-Onguyal take over of France's South America colony, the merging of Brunei and Koshi into Saigyo, the start of a nuclear arms race and a lot of inventions have been invented. A bit of an Asia-Europe divide becoming more prominent <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:22, June 22, 2012 (UTC).

Are there official sides in the Asia-Europe divide? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:03, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

On the European Side it's Denmark, Pan-Celtic Union, and Russia while on the Asian Side it's Nippon, Bhārat, and Finland (Finland closed their land borders, became Semi-Isolated and only allow trade and relations with Asian nations). No other nations took a side so I don't know about the rest.... -Kogasa 20:46, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if this is going to be a Cold war equivalent, then there's probably going to have a equivalent of a non-aligned movement.Hungary will be part of it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:16, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

There was also a failed attempt at creating a United Nations-esque type institution.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:54, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

New NPC/larger NPC nations in Africa?
Currently, I've been limiting the size of the NPC African nations so that there is still room to expand, but they would start to get modern technology by now and begin to expand on their own, so plausibly I should probably have the black areas be swallowed up by NPC grey soon. Is everyone OK with this? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:55, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think that it would be better to expand some nations and form some nations.i think that the peoples on OTL Central African Republic/Empire already must have done some contact with outside peoples during this timeline.i tried to form a Baya state, but i couldn't get the wording for this to be made into a mod event.especially that there are only some few nations to do it.if this happens, those states will get bigger, at some implausible level, i mean, if they expand into everything.particularly,we should expand Luba and Lunda south, but not too much, as then, we would have "Manoa & Onguayal In Africa".--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:52, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hey! Those two only expanded because of my expert controling (c'mon, it was quite good). :/ Imperium Guy 09:06, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

However, before you started controlling Onguayal, both of them had already expanded too much.realistically,i don't think that a nation on the Amazonian region wouldn't grow to be so big.it had to divide itself at some point.(the aforementioned setences are referring to Onguayal-Manoa before Bharati intervention.There is a labeled map in the start of the talk page, and the original sizes of Onguayal and Manoa, before they started to expand, are there.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:54, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

It'd certainly make sense for them to expand into the black. They have nothing to loose by doing so. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:55, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

To which sentence are you talking about?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:00, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Me? It'd make sense for the African nations to expand into the black. They'd have the tech to do so, no one to stop them, and the benefits outweigh the costs. That's what I meant. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:08, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I thought that you was talking about Onguayal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:13, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Scandinator had, for some reason, told me that he wanted lots of NPCs in Africa to slow down colonization, so I had been expanding the South American nations under that logic of slowing colonization. At the time he had said that we were already behind on colonization, but I was a newer moderator then so I just went along with whatever he said. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:16, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but on Onguayal/Manoa, at that size, collapsing into smaller nations would be inevitable (ex from OTL: Rome, Songhay, Holy Roman Empire, Mongol Empire, Macedonian Empire, Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, various others ) at some time, and had Bharat not taken them over, it already should have happened.at that time, on Africa, Luba and Lunda would be useful, and they existed on OTL at that time.a Tswana nation also would serve.but we never did it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:33, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Onguayal and Manoa should be grateful to Bharat!! :P Imperium Guy 22:58, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV), Afghanistan (M), Dravidia (M), Jaffna (MV), Assam (MV), Govapuri (M), Finland (M), Easti Vabariik (MV): 29
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 1
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 9
 * Time: 11:36 = 18
 * Edit count: 8,330
 * (8,330 / 18) * pi = 1453.85 9 27
 * Stability: ((2.7^1.25) / (1.25^2.7)) * 2.5 * 9 = 42.6314582 = 43
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 114

Benin

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Benin (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 4 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((7.4^1.25)/(1.25^7.4)) * 2.5 * 7 = 40.167905 = 40
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 72

Borgu

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Borgu (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive 10
 * Chance: 2 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((7.4^1.25)/(1.25^7.4)) * 2.5 * 7 = 40.167905 = 40
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 70

Dahomay

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Dahomay (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Stability: ((7.4^1.25)/(1.25^7.4)) * 2.5 * 7 = 40.167905 = 40
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 76

Result

 * 1) ((114 / (114+72) * 2)) - 1 = 0.22580 = 23%
 * 2) ((114 / (114+70) * 2)) - 1 = 0.23910 = 24%
 * 3) ((114 / (114+76) * 2)) - 1 = 0.20000 = 20%

Bharat can take 23% of Benin, or (3660 / 100) * 23 = 841.8 = 842px

Bharat can take 24% of Borgu, or (1248 / 100) * 24 = 299.52 = 300px

Bharat can take 20% of Tahomay, or (725 / 100) * 20 = 145px

Discussion
Apparently, you are not declaring war just against Benin, but also Dahomey and Borgu. ~ Collie

I am, so should I just add these nations onto the algorithim? :s Imperium Guy 21:32, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but those nations are not allied, and they are not helping each other, so they maybe they don't count as allies. i'm in doubt if it's better to make three separate algorythms or but the three as leaders of their own alliances.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:43, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

But I can't have all three as leaders, can I? :D Imperium Guy 11:28, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the only thing they have in common is that they are being invaded by you,but they are not helping each other. is either this, or making three separate algorythms.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:51, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Really there should be three seperate algorithms. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:12, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Done! :D Imperium Guy 22:54, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Pan-Celtic Union

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Pan-Celtic Union (L): 4
 * Military Development: 8
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 3
 * Time: 2*5*2 = 20
 * Edit count: 817
 * (817/20)*pi= 128.33
 * Stability: 2.4^1.25/1.25^2.4*2.5*7=30
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 62

Iceland

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (attacked from Sea)
 * Nations: Iceland (L), Italy (M), Calora (MV), New Maya (MV), Istoias (M), Pahang (M): 17
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 4 (random)
 * Stability: 4.3^1.25/1.25^4.3*2.5*6=35
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 87

Result
Icelandic victory, but it would be implausible for them to be able to take control of any Celtic territory.

Discussion
I think the only reason Iceland won because of Italian vassals. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:12, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the math, they would have won had they fought alone. Italy & its vassals & the rest of the sovereignty defense league are just helping, because they are opposed to the unprovoked conquest of developed nations. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:37, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Erm Iceland won the war, what we meant to do about them winning. They should get something. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:37, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

It would be implausible for little Iceland to take any of the Celtic Union. Maybe just say that the Celtic Union has to pay them reparations and swear to help them if they are ever attacked? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:44, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe a mod event to punish the Celtic Union? Lets face it, paying reparations isn't going to make any impact in game. Unless the mod event is negative impacts of the reparations such as riots or economic depression. Swearing to help Iceland in future wars doesn't seem that plausible either. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:34, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

The PCU has been fairly inactive recently, another reason to hit them with moderator events. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:29, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Invitation to new map game + apology from Scandinator
Interesting that you guys should mention a second Principia Moderni (I read the threads above) as I'm currently planning a map game that starts from the dawn of time but will fast forward till the middle ages (1000-1500) depending on how bad the fall of Greece/Rome/Persia was. It starts on the day Principia Moderni finishes and I extend a warm invitation to all players of Principia Moderni to join. To help me with this map game I am using a world atlas history and via that, I believe I may have eliminated the colonialism problem. Also there are parts of the algorythms in many map games that irk me and many other people so I am currently improvising an algorythm to prevent the loss of 10% of xxx's territory robbing that player of his heartlands (Northern War series). To sum that up, it will be very hard to take an nation's core territory and revolts will occur for a period of time in any conquered heartlands especially if the invader has a different culture/religion. I will also attempt to prevent one player from taking all of the HRE in this map game. Rather the emperor of the HRE is elected by players within the HRE and random.org/mod decision from the nations within the HRE, wherever it may be. Anyways the reason I returned to this page before I got distracted by that thread was ... I have spent the last few months looking back at my mod experience in PM and realizing some of the errors in my ways, therefore I apologize to all the members of Principia Moderni but especially, Kogasa, Lx, LurkerLord and also to LG for my implausability and stubborness first as a minor player and then as a mod where it got a lot worse; and promise should any of you join my new map game I will not repeat what happened. (To any new players that need background, I was Sweden, tried to extend influence over Germany and Finland while claiming 70% of North America, got mod-blocked and threw a temper tantrum where I quit and gave away all my territory to almost everyone but Russia.) I hope you all accept my apology and my invitation to my map game which will start in Spetember. The page will go up in late August under the name creatio moderni aetatis (Latin for "creation of the modern age") unless everyone is set on the course of the PMII with a similar starting year in which I will participate as the Kalmar Union or a HRE state or Venice. Scandinator (talk) 02:11, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

We're going to release Principia Moderni II when this is done starting in 1450, we've planned too much already, but having multiple map games starting at the same time shouldn't be a big problem. I am confused though, what do you mean by "fast forwarding from the dawn of time to the middle ages"? Would we play a while in ancient times then skip, or would turns be like 50 years each then slow down? But anyways, if you don't want it to start at the same time as Principia Moderni II, you could begin it a month earlier or later, so they wouldn't knock each other out.

If you can handle both Principia Moderni II and your own game (which I will probably join), you can call a Kalmar Union or a HRE state or Venice or any of the others by signing up here. You can change what nation you've signed up as until the game begins. For the Kalmar Union, you would officially play as Denmark, Sweden, or Norway, but control the other two through dynastic union like in this game. If you want, you could even rejoin this game as any NPC nation, or you might be able to ask someone for one of their vassals/independent colonies or something (the only one I would be interested in letting you play as is Israel, and their options are sort of limited...).

To wrap it up though, I'm glad that you didn't quit the wiki forever (though I am glad you waited for longer than one day to return from your eternal self-banishment, unlike some people recently who've done that several times...) LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:43, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

I'll start mine up in November then, as I am about to graduate from high school in September and will finish university enterance exams in November. By fast forwarding, I mean turns start at 100 years from 4000 BC and slow down to 5 years a turn by the end of the middle ages. The early years 4000 to 500BC will involve a lot of mod events and my idea is to let players take control of a region rather than an empire and can change events that happened in OTL. This may prevent a whole number of things including all the world's major religions...

I won't rejoin Principia Moderni because I have just signed up for another map game on the wikia and have little time to commit. Also, Collie, would you fancy a break from mapmaking? I won't mind taking up the role in PM II. Also Bohemia is part of the HRE, they were emperors of HRE in the 15th century. Scandinator (talk) 05:05, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

I actually still think on holding this role on PM II, as i need something to keep me from being declared inactive, by the quality of my posts.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:07, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

You sure about that? I think your posts are fine. Plus I've never had a go at mapmaking in a successful map game. I've tried in a couple run by DeanSims... they collapsed in a fortnight. So I would love to take that role. I have decided that as a mod I may not the best choice for running revolts and such, so may I please return as the disaster mod? Scandinator (talk) 07:08, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Russia

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Russia(L)/Poland(M)/Transcaucasia(M)/Novorossiya(M)/South Africa(M)/South-Pacifica(M)/Kazakhstan(M)/Sunda(M): 19-24
 * Military Development: ?
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 6(bring Stalin to Justice)
 * Chance: ?
 * Stability: ?
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: ?

Georgia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2(Caucasus Mountains)
 * Georgai(L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance:?
 * Stability: ?
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: ?

Nippon
Yeah that wasn't me guys see?. Not sure who this 87.166.83.151 guy is. It better be a random troll rather than another player trying to sabotage me <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:07, June 26, 2012 (UTC).

Apparently the guy is from north west Germany. I can safely say I'm not German. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:12, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

I blocked him for three days. He seemed to know what nations were allied together, making it unlikely in my mind that it was some totally random troll, though it does not necessarily have to be a player. Do you have any idea who it might be? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:17, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Can't really say, I don't know anyone from North west Germany. I could have a look through the people playing the game to see if anyone is from the area. But for all I know the guy might of just used a proxy & that isn't his real IP address at all. The only person I've pissed off on the Wiki recently was Doctor261 but I think he is above this sort of stuff so I really doubt it was him <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:43, June 26, 2012 (UTC).


 * I can say safely that it was not me.I have a different IP number (which initial numbers i can't reveal over security reasons), i am from Brazil, i have no reason to do it (because if you four fight a war, given that three or two of you have atomic boms, probably Doomsday would ensue) and i did not even noticed that post.just clarifying in case that you consider everybody to be a suspect.And for the troll theory, its at least possible that he could have just read the game before the post.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not me. My IP starts with 213. And I have no reasons to do that, and I'm also part of Bharat so, well... I don't know, but it's not me. 87.166.83.151 IP in, you will see, that that guy is from Germany, Berlin's provider, which automatically means that... Well... Yeah... You know what I mean.  Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 08:54, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly confident its none of you guys playing. I checked & we don't have anyone from Germany. If it is any person playing then they've used a proxy so I have no real way of easily tracking them down. Besides you guys aren't the type to resort to such lowly tactics. The problem was solved & unless it happens again, we don't need to investigate this further... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:00, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was Hitler! lol [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:00, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Germany, eh? Far as I know we don't have any editors from there right now. Lordganon 21:14, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">That's the problem. With no known German editors, this is definitely one of those wiki sulkers. (Those who watch what happens without being an editor on the site.) Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:24, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Apology and a note
I'd just like to actually apologise for the problems I caused earlier in the game, and I'm glad that I left something behind in the form of Isolaque and Calora that actually became interesting and a good part of the game instead of just the bloody history of Venice to be used as a bogyman and to be pointed to as a lesson of history of what happens when you get too personally involved. And on a final note I'd actually like to apologise again properly to Yank for being a pain in the neck for no good reason. Glad to see the game worked out well in the end when so many others died. Kunarian 16:51, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oh hi, you're back! And I'm glad that you have seen reason. If you want, you can control Calora again. And join Principia Moderni II when it comes out in a few months. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:58, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I'll sit out Principia Moderni until number two comes out, then I think I'll join that, is there a page for it anywhere yet? Kunarian 10:24, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Principia Moderni II is where you can sign up to "call" nations. You can change what nation you're signed up as until the game itself begins, which will happen after this one. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:11, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

The past doesn't matter as long as you've truely learned your lesson. I accept your apology.

Yank 04:09, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks I really don't know what got into me Kunarian 10:24, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Kun!! You never got to see Bharat rise (yes I control the nation in India), but I am glad you have seen through past differences. The country's a major power!! :D Imperium Guy 22:39, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">Excuse moi, Imp, Russia, Wales, and Denmark have bombs! We are the true superpowers! Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:38, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nippon, Bharat, China, and the Commonwealth of Eetoria & Nganinkeha have nuclear weapons too. We also have much large empires than Wales & Denmark. Wales is also facing some serious civil problems with Ireland breaking away. Your nations are rich & technologically advanced for Europe, but on the world stage your 2nd rate powers. Russia defintely is a superpower though. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:57, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly! This game shows how under slightly different circumstances and better leadership, countries like Nippon and Bharat can command territories of their own (more for Bharat though as Nippon was still an empire!!). Onguayal might also have nukes soon. Most Asian contries are major powers and Nippon, China, Bharat and Vietnam are all possible superpowers. :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 15:27, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear me the world has really changed, in the last days of old Venice Wales was a backwater and Denmark wasn't really important and Nippon was reasonably devided, the only thing that's stayed the same is Russia and China, as powerful and grand as always. However I am pleased to see Italy united. Kunarian 17:35, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

France
I think that we should consider France inactive. there's now three weeks with no France and former colonies-related posts.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:27, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Send Gal a message first. I know we're approaching the period when nations start to loose colonies anyway, but show the guy some respect. He's been one of the game's biggest contributors & holds vast sways of control over the PM world. I've messaged him on his talk page so just wait a bit for him to reply. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm back! Sorry for not being active literally in decades, but I've been working on my new althistory in the spanish wikkia, in my map game Orbis Terrarumand other projects, but I'd like to come back to the game. At least, I'd like to participate until the end, and, of course, I was planning on return, at least, for Principia Moderni II.

I wanted to thanks Von for sending me a message, as I literally forgot the game, thank you for consider me. So I'll play back. Is there anything I should know? New colonization rules? Is it a war going on? --Galaguerra1 01:59, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Denmark, Wales, and Russia built the first bomb and they all tested their own bombs at once, Wales had a war with Iceland and the EC is not very supportive when members go to war with non-members. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:03, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

A bunch of near-world wars and micronationalism. Italy and some of its former colonies formed the Sovereignty Defense League whose goal is to prevent the conquest of developed nations, as they now consider that to be barbaric. Any other nation can join, though so far no one has. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:35, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Your colony in South America is gone! :/ Imperium Guy 11:13, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Please, can we not start a world war over this?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:15, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

I have no problem, I was gone, and I wasn't doing almost anything with that colony anyway. --Galaguerra1 17:51, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

So, Imperium, this means that your gains will be recognized.i wasn't doing it specifically for this reason.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:00, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

So you didn't recognise it because Gal wasn't here. Hmmm... makes sense. :D Imperium Guy 17:54, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Warning
This is 1945.After this year, nations can only have a maximum of three colonies, all of them with less than 25,704 px.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:49, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Under this rule, colonies to be freed are: Under warning: --Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:55, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Neos Preveza (Hungary/Greece): almost 30,000 px.
 * Algeria-Lybia (Caliphate): almost 50,000 px
 * Kongo (Dravidia): more than 26,000 px.
 * Vietnamese colony on East Africa (more than 23,000 px)
 * Nippon (still has six colonies)
 * Bharat's Australian colonies (although none of them probably pass the limit, because they have roughly the same size, the three of them together still have more then 50,000 px.). and you still have five colonies.

Now its 5 colonies, and 2 shall be merging to form a vassal state next turn. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:07, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Six.Ringgya, Satotochi, and the four colonies that you have on Oceania and Australia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:13, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * My colonies at the moment are Nikoman (the nicobar islands), Ringga, Shuujin, Gasobudan and Papua Nipponia. Chamoru is only vassal state. Satotochi became part of Nippon itself in 1909 as the colony was split up into 5 prefectures and became part of Nippon proper. Wandaarando just gained independence & part of it joined Papua Nipponia. That's 5 colonies currently, next turn Nippon's Australian colonies Shuujin & Gasobudan will merge into a vassal state, giving me 3 colonies & 2 vassal states. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:24, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Crap make that 4 colonies now, I forgot about Mauritius :( <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:40, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but they have to be released over time, all in one go is highly implausible!! :P Imperium Guy 11:11, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * For accuracy with OTL, You got fifteen years to do it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:13, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * 25, as the British got thier last colony gone in the 70s. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 11:15, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, it was the 60's.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:17, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * No the British still have colonies. The last one to gain independence was Hong Kong in 1997, however that was a dependent territory technically. Anyway here's a helpful table showing decolonization. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:11, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * However, most of the OTL today's colonies aren't so big as the ones in this game.We are trying to get rid of the bigger ones, such as OTL Zaire, Somalia, Central African Republic or Algeria, all of which gained independence around the 60's.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:14, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was actually planning for Dravidia's Kongo colony to have the first independent movements this year and then break away 5 years later. Is that OK? LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:00, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:14, June 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * In the next few years, I will give independce to large masses of african territory. It's still sad we couldn't finnish colonizing the world before start descolonizing :p --Galaguerra1 17:53, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know, Denmark has no colonies. Greenland is not a colony, and I know it's pretty darn huge. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:07, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues 1945
The Vietnamese have spent the last five years expaning their East African colony. Why hasn't the borders changed? Yank 01:42, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because there was too few space to expand, and i forgot to add it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:55, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * East_Africa_PM.png know where you can expand the colony. There is an opening on the other side of Lake Nyassa. After you fill in the last empty space between Kenia and the colony you can use the remaining pixels there. Also the Kenians have also been expanding westwards for five years. And what's the name of the northernost NPC country next to my African colony? Yank 19:50, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * They don't have a name. we call them The Lakes' Empire.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:56, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Denmark has eastern Svalbard.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:49, June 30, 2012 (UTC)



Eh? I never agreed to give Eastern Sweden Away.. It's still mine... D: -Kogasa 03:58, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then what's that map with you not having Sweden's coastline was doing there?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:57, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was not me, it was Scraw's. And, I never accepted that proposal. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 08:14, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, just to let know I fixed it myself now. -Kogasa 04:10, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also, all of Ireland (no division) is part of Britain now. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:16, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

What on earth is going on with Bengal. No one even seems to notice that its my protectorate and its expanding its colonies. Here is how the map should be: Please remember this. If you read my Bengal posts you will see thht all this happened in an organised fashion. Imperium Guy 11:25, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You know Bengal has a colony in the Caribbean? Its in the Cayman islands, a pixel of the island has remained black for centuries now, even though the other 2 pixels of the island have been a colony of Hanthawaddy/Bengal for centuries. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:38, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, thank you for telling me. Because of this I also realised Bengal has a vassal in the area as well, the large island below the Caribbean Federation. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 12:24, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume you're talking about Jamaica when you say large island below the Caribbean Federation, but Jamaica is a Hanthawaddian successor state called New Hanthawaddy, which broke away from Bengal in 1836 as the last refuge of the Sadhuim Dynasty of Hanthawaddy, as they weren't Muslim like Bengal's new government. Also the Caribbean Federation merged with the Union of the Americas to form the Federation of the Americas in 1945 in case you didn't notice <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:08, June 30, 2012 (UTC).
 * You can't take control of that nation bordering Burma without an algorithm, Imperium Guy. And Detectivekenny stated clearly that Bengal is primarily Muslim, you can't just retcon all that and make them all become Buddhist because you dislike Islam. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:39, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lurk. You can't make all those people Buddhist. It's also discouraged to convert from Islam to something else. Even if they have a Buddhist government, the people would be Muslim. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:19, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still keep Hanthawaddy/Bengal on its color, as there is a chance of DK might come back to claim it.and i formed the colony on those colors.Still, i think that expansion on that map is invalid, as only 1 to 2 px might be claimed when forming a colony.you started at 651x1,5 px.so technically, this colony should be smaller.the next two turns with this number sill are valid, though.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:14, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * The colony in South West Africa which was Hattanwaddy's (I think), has been reoccupied, and so there is no need to set up a new colony. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 13:41, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Can some one Point me out the ge empire? I'm lost sine dei gloriem

Why's Saigyō not unified on this map? Koshi & Brunei merged into one nation, so it should be one colour rather than split between me & Kosaga. Like on the map opposite here. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:35, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't knew which color to use, as i don't know who post for it, and which one controls the union.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:10, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well Kosaga does the original post for the confederacy and then I add my two penny's worth to it. I'd do it in Kosaga's colour also for the fact he has less nations, so the map will be less confusing. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

Also, Switzerland is marked as an Italian vassal again, when they were never revassalized. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:01, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since when they ceased to be?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:16, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1914. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:13, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Australia (M), Godavari (M), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV), Hungary (M): 30
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 5
 * Time: 13:19 = 27
 * Edit count: 8,331
 * (8331 / 27) * pi = 969.35 5 86
 * Stability: ((3.9^1.25) / (1.25^1.25)) * 2.5 * 9 = 51.64927 = 52
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 115

Botswana

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Botswana (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 5 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((0.2^1.25) / (1.25^0.2) * 2.5) * 7 = 2.2384 = 2
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 21

Result
((115 / (115+21)) * 2) -1 = 0.691176 = 69%

Bharat has right to 69% of Botswanan territory, thus easily toppling the Botswanan government. In this case at least, the war should be over by Christmas.

The territory will be transfered to Bengal in light of their agreement, and some border areas will also be transferred to Hungary in light of their co-operation.

Discussion
Can you at least have the decency of answering me about my offer of helping you in exchange for a bit of territory along the Délafrikan border before you end this war?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:07, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm so sorry Collie, I did not see your offer at all. Very, very sorry. You don't need to send support, I'll give it to you anyway. My want in return is to know about the starting dates of the three other states so I can quickly invade them. Is that an alright trade? ;D Imperium Guy 21:31, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Since they appeared in 1756, i'll guess that is this.And yes, it is.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:32, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the info, Collie! :D Imperium Guy 22:39, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Tangiers

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical advantage:1
 * Nations: Tangiers (L), Bharat (M), Assam (MV), Bihar (MV), Afghanistan (M), Govapuri (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Australia (M), Italy (M): 26
 * Puppet States: 0
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:8
 * Stability: ((4.8^1.25) / (1.25^4.8)) * 2.5 * 8 = 48.68705 = 49
 * Participation: 10
 * Current Total: 118

Morocco

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical advantage: 0
 * Strength: Morocco (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 5
 * Stability: ((44.7^1.25) / (1.25^44.7)) * 2.5 * 8 = 0.1076556 = 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 34 * 1.5 = 51

Result
((118 / (118 + 51)) * 2) - 1 = 0.3964497 = 40%

Therefore, Tangiers win and have the right to claim 40% of Moroccan territory, toppling their government.

Discussion
Since Morocco is in civil disarray, its result will be multiplied by 1,5.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:30, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat lends in support to Vietnam in return for a small enclave (I'll only be around 5-10px). :D Imperium Guy 14:34, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

It's a deal. I'm still waiting for Gal to declare France's support in the war, as he promised when joined his war in Spain.

Yank 15:17, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

And leave a pixel or two of civil disarray, it'll give expansion bonus!! ;D Imperium Guy 18:16, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Italy will help its ally Vietnam. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:27, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Australia (M), Govapuri (M), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV): 27
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 7
 * Time: 22:37 = 84
 * Edit count: 8,370
 * (8370 / 84) * pi = 331.03 7 268
 * Stability: ((4.1^1.25) / (1.25^4.1)) * 2.5 * 9 = 52.581295 = 53
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 125

Twobia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Twobia (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 7 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((19.2^1.25) / (1.25^19.2)) * 2.5 * 7 = 9.6937616 = 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 36

Numia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Numia (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 9 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((19.2^1.25) / (1.25^19.2)) * 2.5 * 7 = 9.6937616 = 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 38

Kazibira

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Kazibira (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 2 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((19.2^1.25) / (1.25^19.2)) * 2.5 * 7 = 9.6937616 = 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 31

Result

 * 1) ((125 / (125+36)) * 2) - 1 = 0.5527950 = 55%
 * 2) ((125 / (125+38)) * 2) - 1 = 0.5337423 = 53%
 * 3) ((125 / (125+31)) * 2) - 1 = 0.6025641 = 60%

Bharati victory in all three wars. All of them are decisively defeated with a full government change and consolidation of their territories.

After the ending of the war, all three territories will be given to Bengal for their colony in the South of Africa, again in light of their agreement.

Discussion
Could someone please put in the proper names please? :D Imperium Guy 23:01, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't the military development score get re-set after each war? Or have I completely misread the algorithm rules this entire time? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:33, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so, to be honest! :D Imperium Guy 11:09, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

It used to get reset after each war, but then Detectivekenny changed the rules. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:34, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yus!! :D Imperium Guy 14:00, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Name changed.And, can you please try to refer to Govapuri as Govapuri?the name "Govadari" isn't even a alternative name for OTL Goa, which is where the capital is, and which i took the name.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:53, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I was in a little rush!! :/ Imperium Guy 15:55, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues 1950
The Kenians have been expanding their territory westwards for about a decade now. Why has their western border remained the same for the last two maps?

Yank 21:52, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Plus I expanded Sindu by 110250 sq km! Why was that not expanded (as for the extra colony bonus, here is a transfer of areas as per the 1895 Rochefort Conference which I recently remembered and Gal agreed to transfer the territory in exchance for Castille. Gal made this map and added the territory to be exchanged himself, so I know I am not wron and Gal agreed.

So please could my expansion be shown? <:o Imperium Guy 22:03, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

to where? this map doesn't accounbt for southern Sara.i will try to make up for this expansion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:32, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

No, no. The map is only meant to show areas France tranfered to Bharat. The expansion is just Eastward in general (towards Chand and the lot). :D Imperium Guy 22:36, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

There was a mod event in 1945 that made Tibet independent. -Kogasa 04:05, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I know, but i couldn't include them because i had no reference of where Tibet is.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:26, July 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I fixed Tibet to the borders it had in this game before China conquered it. Since this leaves part of Chinese territory in India utterly nonconnected, I'll have Mughalistan and Nepal break away next turn. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:32, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat, Australia & the Commonwealth solved their border dispute and borders have changed like ones shown in this map. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:35, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Vietnam (L) 4
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:
 * Time:
 * Edit count:
 * Stability:
 * Participation: 10
 * Total:
 * Total:

Empire of the Lakes

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Empire of the Lakes (L) 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Participation: 10
 * Total:

Disscussion
Can someone please help me with this war? I'd like it to be over by the time 1960 rolls around.

Yank 17:49, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Wonderlaand
Recently, Wonderlaand's idiocy has led to acknowledged hatred that now exists between Denmark+Finland and Wonderlaand.

War is imminent, with Wonderlaand being mostly likely the attacker since Denmark is only fighting with words.

If Wonderlaand attacks either nations, aid is promised.

Surely the SLD would aid the defender, yes?

And Kogasa said he would pull in Finland, colonies, vassals, puppets, and former colonies, vassals, and puppets, which is a lot.

I'm thinking that maybe Nippon and some other Asian nations would help Wonderlaand, and maybe Bharat since they made it to Number 2 on Denmark's Hate List.

However Kogasa says that he might be able to talk Nippon and Bharat and that whole load of their former global empires and whatnot.

So, any other nations who promise to aid either side if war starts?

(Of course, if anyone is offended, sorry, I'm just stating all this if and only  if  a war starts. I need to know who would be with who in case a war does happen.)

Bharat
Bharat/Bengal has started this apartheid system and these people are going to South Africa but they have to become Buddhist or be stranded there forever because you can't leave either.

What evilness...ness...

Alongside this, calling in the army to attack Muslim rebellions due to their rebelling against becoming Buddhist or whatever other stuff Bharat has in store for them. This is called religious persecution, which has been intolerable since the beginning of man.

Thoughts?

Discussion
Talk here. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:18, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Saigyō can be able to help. The Emperor and Empress of the nation wanted to stay out of the war and remain neutral; but the Kōshis would begin to protest again if a war ever happens with Wonderlaand as they would want to join the fight against Wonderlaand. If I get lucky, then maybe some Kōshis would volunteer to join in on the fight. But it depends on Von, as he also controls the nation. -Kogasa 18:34, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

For god's sake! It happened in OTL, its happening here in a different form. Get with it! Its not even implausible as I was discussing with Lurk on the matter. :P Imperium Guy 22:07, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

So what? There were tons of nations that didn't like South Africa for doing it with the blacks, and that was racism. This is religous persecution and that is not going to be tolerated. I am not doing this against you, you know we are friends; I am not doing this because it is implausible, otherwise I would have said "This is implausible" and leave it at that. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:13, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I know its all game play! :P But, as an fyi, there will be a Nelson Madela figure who will end Aparthied. However, it will still go on for a few decades. :/ Imperium Guy 22:19, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I read about it on Lurk's talk page.

PS: I was not spying, I was going to leave him a message and saw your conversation on the way down to see if what I wrote was published.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:27, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

The Sovereignty Defense League would only aid the defender if the defender's motive was life-or death. As none of the motivations here appear to be intended to totally conquer the other nation, they wouldn't be involved.

That said, declaring war on someone because of apartheid is stupid. If it was a full-on genocide, maybe, but just segregation would not start an external war. Any government that did that would suffer massive protests. No one is going to want to die because the discrimination against some people has gotten somewhat worse (note that discrimination against Muslims in Bharat has gone on since it was founded. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:00, July 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly, it used to be a lot worse, pre-1870s. [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 10:29, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

OK then. I guess any sort of this war would be cancelled. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:07, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

What's the point of putting this stuff here in the first place anyway? No point in clogging up the talk page with pointless speculation. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Because, I can't write this over and over on everyone's talk page. As you might know, we're near a war, and both sides need to know who would fight with them in case the war does start. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:14, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

I do question: what would be the end result of a war against Wonderlaand in which Denmark is the aggressor? Because if your goal is to conquer it, then the SDL would oppose you... LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:04, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Either Wonderlaand would become a puppet or a new government would be in place. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:35, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Wonderlaand vs. Denmark
If Wonderlaand attacks Denmark to free Sweden. If Denmark attacks Wonderlaand because they got pissed off too far.
 * Friends of Denmark
 * Denmark
 * Finland
 * Eesti Vabariik
 * Käwäshiro
 * Mystiää (supplies only)
 * Hungary
 * Wales
 * Friends of Wonderlaand
 * Wonderlaand
 * Friends of Denmark
 * Denmark
 * Finland
 * Eesti Vabariik
 * Käwäshiro
 * Mystiää (supplies only)
 * Wales
 * Friends of Wonderlaand
 * Wonderlaand

Bharat vs. Denmark
If Bharat attacks because it does not want to hear anything from Denmark anymore.
 * Friends of Denmark


 * Denmark
 * Most of the EC should be here as well as the SLD
 * Friends of Bharat

If Denmark attacks Bharat to free the Bengals and end apartheid.
 * Bharat
 * Onguayal
 * Afghanistan
 * Andalucia
 * Bihar
 * Assam
 * Godapuri
 * Friends of Denmark


 * Denmark
 * Friends of Bharat

Please add your nations accordingly.
 * Dravidia
 * Kongo

Bharat

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Australia (M), Govapuri (M), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV): 27
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 5
 * Time: 23:03 = 18
 * Edit count: 8,521
 * (8,521 / 18) * pi = 1487.19 5 06
 * Stability: ((4.3^1.25) / (1.25^4.3)) * 2.5 * 9 = 53.3709621 = 53
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 113

Sara

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Sara (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 7 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((0.9^1.25) / (1.25^0.9)) * 2.5 * 6 = 10.756609 = 11
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 37

Result
((113 / (113+37)) * 2) - 1 = 0.50667 = 51%

Bharat successfully conquers Sara, toppling their government. Sara is incorporated into Sindu.

Discussion
Doesn't it violates your agreement with the Caliphate (most of Sara locates within Caliphate's claims)?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:49, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, well. The Capilate never asked to get a part and never supported the war so... :/ Imperium Guy 20:07, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

All of these recent movies and things...
OK, having one movie or two being mentioned on the main page should not be too distracting, but we are getting paragraphs and paragraphs devoted to describing movies and books and whatnot and it is sort of overdone. It might be better to make a page titled "Ian Fleming Series (Principia Moderni)" or "Anti-Wonderlaand Propaganda Movies (Principia Moderni)" and describe it there. Finally, as I mentioned on the game page, books written out of their correct time period in OTL are going to be viewed as incredibly dated. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:30, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Dibs on Star Wars. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 18:09, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">How dare you. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:48, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I call dibs on, all their characters from that series as well. I also call GTA as well, and maybe Gran Turismo series (those these two games won't appear until 1990s, but still). Maybe some other anime/manga/games as well, but the three are the main. I know this doesn't count as films/books and stuff, but I also claim the creation of music genres of Techno and Heavy Metal in advance (they will appear around the late 1970s and 1960s, respectively). -Kogasa 18:17, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Dibs on Star Trek and Stargate series'. :D Imperium Guy 19:38, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I call dibs on Indiana Jones, Fallout and Supernatural.

Yank 19:43, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I have nothing left worthy of calling. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:48, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Dibs on,007 Franchis(all 23 movies), Firefly, Serenity, Elder Scrolls Series and Mass Effect series. I know these ocur late game but oh well. I also call Youtube(different name) Wales has been slightly behind the Nipponese in computers(Wales has been working on it almost since Nippon began and the company Orange( similar business structure to OTL IBM, but runs a linux variant in the future called Orange LTS (OTL Ubuntu) already has several computer models. Orange will grow to directly compete with Nippon and Vietnam in the computer industry I also call the Music of Frank Sinatra-although he'll be named different. Andr3w777 (talk) 20:42, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">I called Google first, YT owned by Google. I was gonna call it ViewBox. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:11, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I call Wikipedia, Wikia, and Google, although they will have different names, alongside Microsoft Corporation. I think I'll Percy Jackson in a different name too. Also Jurassic Park, and something simliar to Men in Black, Pirates of the Carribean (Boucaneers of XYZ), and Lord of the Rings.

Nordic-esque names for all of them.

Who wants to compete with an Apple analog?

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:55, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Not me, though I still will have Linux appear (as the creator of OTL Linux also happens to be from Finland). :P I also call Nico Nico Douga (OTL Japanese Video Site), and Baidu (OTL Chinese search engine). -Kogasa 20:58, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'll create the Apple-analogue, though I'll try to do it around the OTL founding of Apple. It'll be called Táo Computers. I'm so lucky that the Vietnamese word for "Apple" sounds so cool. Yank 21:52, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Most of these things wouldn't naturally occur in this time line due to the USA not existing. They're gonna need altering. Plus Toshiba is miles ahead with the development of computers than the rest of the world. As are a lot of other industries in Nippon, the zaibatsu conglomerates dominate the business world. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:56, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I call the creation of the OTL genres of Free Jazz and Jazz Fusion. (50's and 60's)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:29, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and I'm doing Avatar (As in Last Airbender and Legend of Korra, not the smurf/alien movie). Has anyone noticed me naming people after characters in LoK? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 02:48, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Room for one more?
May I join? Or is this a closed club? --<font COLOR="878787">"Truth fears no questions..." 21:20, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah you can join, its a bit tense at the moment and you're gonna be forced to pick sides quickly. Have a read though some of the past posts to understand what is going on and then by all means join us! Familiarise yourself with the rules and abide by them too <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:59, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, don't be afraid to ask someone if you can play as one of their former colonies, as they could make it playable for you. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:09, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I have some of them available.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:25, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Is Ethiopia safe to play? I'd like some breathing room if you know what I mean. And thanks for the info. Oh, and what colonies are avaliable for play? --<font COLOR="878787">"Truth fears no questions..." 23:35, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and at least, my former colonies available are: Kandy (not exactly a colony, but i don't do nothing with it), Síksagók Nemzet, Öböl, Szent Lörinc, Greece, or Ezsák-Afrika (still a colony, but you can make it independent)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:52, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I was wondering if Kandy could be bought by Bharat/Dravidia to merge it with Jaffna, if that is alright with you, becuase you stated you have no use for it. :D Imperium Guy 12:40, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

No.Jaffna is mostly Tamil,and Kandy is mostly Sinhalese.by OTL you know that this isn't going to end well.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:42, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Where is Ezsák-Afrika? --<FONT COLOR="878787">"Truth fears no questions..."</FONT> 20:15, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Look at the map. see this colony right below OTL Morocco, more or less where is OTL Mauritania and Western Sahara?Ezsák-Afrika is this one.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:13, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Bharat (L), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Australia (M), Govapuri (M), Onguayal (M), Andalucia (MV): 27
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 8
 * Time: 00:05 = 5
 * Edit count: 8,547
 * (8,547 / 5) * pi = 5 370.23 8 48
 * Stability: ((4.5^1.25) / (1.25^4.5)) * 2.5 * 9 = 54.026035 = 54
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 120

Mughalistan

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Mughalistan (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 4
 * Stability: ((0.2^1.25) / (1.25^0.2)) * 2.5 * 8 = 2.5582058 = 3
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 28

Nepal

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: Nepal (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 1
 * Stability: ((0.2^1.25) / (1.25^0.2)) * 2.5 * 8 = 2.5582058 = 3
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 25

Result

 * 1) ((120 / (120+28)) * 2) - 1 = 0.621621 = 62%
 * 2) ((120 / (120+25)) * 2) - 1 = 0.655172 = 66%

Bharat quickly overruns both nations swiftly. The nations are both defeated in a year and will be incoporated into Bharat proper after their surrender.

Map Issues 1955
I annexed the Empire of the Lakes. I believe the war was won because of the fact that Vietnam effectively surrounds the country. No country can win in a two-front war. Also I would really prefer to keep all of Vietnam's OTL territory in the country. That means that the OTL Mekong Delta region is the territory of Vietnam, not the Khmers (who control only OTL Cambodia).

Yank 22:17, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * This was in 1955, so is to be added on the 1960 map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Also Denmark regained the Arctic Islands in the 30s from Norway and Western Svalbard by Finnish cession in the 40s. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:32, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Wales re-oragized the colonies of Nouvelle-Champagne and Nouvelle-Patagonie into one colony/client state with representation in Wales.Andr3w777 (talk) 22:37, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Cambodia should be the same color as Vietnam, as they are in dynastic union. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:45, July 9, 2012 (UTC) Cambodia isn't Cambodia. It's the restoration of the former Khmer Empire. I gave them a Vietnamese prince to make it more interesting, but I had no idea that a dynastic union would result. I'm still willing to go along with it. --209.202.3.198 04:17, July 10, 2012 (UTC) Yank 04:22, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

New Technology
Everyone, please remember, in this era of new inventions, that it is against the rules set down by Detectivekenny to invent any new technology prior to its OTL invention date. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:15, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Then Russia's Sputniks should be regarded as void since the first satellite was completed and sent up in 1957 OTL. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

It saddens me that people can't wait one year. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Denmark

 * Location: 1 (other side of the world)
 * Tactical advantage: (attacker's advantage) 1
 * Denmark (L), Finland (M), Kawashiiro (M), Mystiaa (S), Eesti Vabariik (MV), Brythonic Union (M), Italy (M) Russia (M), Hungary (M), Serbia (M): 29
 * Military Development: +12
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 5 (Social/Moral)
 * Chance:3
 * 230.9349 (Declaration by Denmark was at 2321 UTC, and that was my 5360th edit.
 * Stability:6.7^1.25/1.25^6.7*2.5*7=42
 * Total: 93

Wonderlaand

 * Location: 5 (site of war)
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground, they can only be attacked from sea)


 * Wonderland (L+4)


 * Motive:10 (people are threatening to nuke them)
 * Military Buildup:11
 * Expansion:0


 * Chance:0


 * Von, at 2209, said to me "War," and that was his 4226th edit. The numbers make it, 1919.3082
 * Stability:1.1^1.25/1.25^1.1*2.5*7=15
 * Total:43

Result
Denmark and its allies effectively annihilate Wonderlaand. Denmark can currently take at most ((87/(43+87))*2)-1=33.84% of Wonderlaandish territory. Since the war lasted 1 year, Denmark can take (32.2)*(1-1/(2))=16.92% of Wonderlaandish territory.

Discussion
I don't think the LSD should get into this because I am only going to overthrow the Wonderlandic government and capture Nielssen and his friends and send him and them to the ICHR. There they will be executed. I also intend to occupy Wonderlaand until 1962. Moderators, please fix what is wrong. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:16, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

What does the drug LSD have to do with this? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

LSD, League of Sovereignty Defense. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:20, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I was calling them the Sovereignty Defense League (SDL). I looked back and it turns out I had originally called them the Sovereignty Preservation Defense Union (SPDU). SDL sounds better than SPDU, and doesn't look the same as a drug. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

SPDU is an anagram of SPUD, and that just reminds me of potatoes, which I hated unless they are in the form of mashed potatoes. I think we'd be better off sticking with SDL.

Also, Russia said that it joined in 1956.

Also, if it is a real commonwealth, the memebers (Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc) should be included, as in a commonwealth they are practically independent. Unless, of course, they have the choice of abstaining from the war. That is different.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:00, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

You posted that the war was already over, you can't add more people now. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:52, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">You (or I think it was you) crossed that out, so apparently the war's not over yet. Thusly Russia, Hungary, and Serbia should be placed into the algorithm. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Russian Commonwealth nations are not forced to join the war, unless another commonwealth nation is attacked directly(whales is part of that too now), as per the RCMDP to ensure sovreignty of each commonwealth nation and control over foreign policy(although the RCMDP stands paramount). -Lx (leave me a message) 15:27, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I never declared war, the attack was meant to provoke Denmark into attacking hence Denmark declared war on Wonderlaand (what I was trying to do with all that propaganda earlier), as the attack was done by an extremist group rather than the Wonderlaand government. I also haven't surrendered just yet. Also the only way you guys would be able to nuke Wonderlaand would be using a bomber plane launched from an aircraft carrier, your ICBMs cannot reach the other side of the planet, just sayin'. Also no more aftermath from the biological attacks? I mean as far as I know Denmark hasn't produced vaccines for the diseases unleashed in Copenhagen, and would have to buy them from a foreign nation... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">...and as far as I know nobody has. The way you put it, if you didn't say that you have it, you don't have it. Nobody has said they have developed the cure for this this this this this and this. Besides, these would ahve been invented by now and widespread throughout global pharmacies, hospitals, etc. Yeah there's aftermath. Basically until supplies and medicines reach Copenhagen let's say the deaths go up by 150ish every year or so. Anyone who wasn't hit by the diseases have been escorted out (government officials first and then civilians) of Copenhagen. Then they were tested for stuff. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Wales does have nuclear warheads in Russia due to our military and defense treaty, so yes I could reach Wonderlaand. However my nation has decided not persue nuclear options though they remain on the table. Wales has a Centres For Disease Control and Prevention and we do have vaccines to cover some of the biological attacks including plague.Andr3w777 (talk) 16:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Wonderlaand is in the South Pacific (e.g. Fiji and the other pink islands around it but not in near by Australia) how can missiles launched in Russia hit it? And yeah the vaccines are in Wales not Denmark, so while the outbreak would eventually be stopped, it would take some time for the resources to reach Denmark so thousands still would still die. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

If we flew them over it would take less than an hour or two. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Acualy, South-Pacifica, the russian commonwealth nation in New Zealand, could launch nukes if from a russian military base. -Lx (leave me a message) 07:05, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was just the Pacific. I do have nuclear subs too but they are nowhere near the south Pacific. As stated previously. We will not use nukes. We are actually planning on sending in the Red Cross to help assist the displaced. We will be compasinate for it was not the majority that caused that attack. We will aid the inncoent once Wonderlaand has fallen. And we will motion for full independence for Wonderlaand afterwards. The CDC has sent aid via airplanes through Stockholm, and its is being shipped from there to Copenhagen. Yes it will be awhile but we will save lives regardless.Andr3w777 (talk) 17:18, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be easier to fly over Copenhagen and drop it from there. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Onguayal (L), Bharat (M), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Govapuri (M), USA (M), Songone (MV), Muisca (MV), Käwäshiro (M), Finland (S), Australia (M), Andalucia (MV), Quechua Republic (MV): 41
 * Military Development: 15
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -10
 * Chance:8
 * Time: 1*1*5*6=30
 * Edit count:8578
 * 8578/30*pi=898.28
 * Stability: ((7.6^1.25)/(1.25^7.6))*2.5*8 = 46
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 113

Fjordlaand

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Fjordlaand (L), Italy (M), Pahang (M), Istoias (M), New Maya (M), Calora (M), Brythonic Confederation (M), Wonderlaand (M),Hungary (M), Egypt (M), Achinet (SV), Serbia (MV), Kandy (MV): 36
 * Military Development: 0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:4
 * Stability:((6.7^1.25)/(1.25^6.7))*2.5*8=48
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 113

Result
War finishes in a stalemate, no land gained.

Discussion
I hope you aren't trying to shortchange them just to win the war.leaders get 4, not 2.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:35, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

I am not, I thought I put 4. Oh well, I'll change it. :/ Imperium Guy 22:39, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Onguayal is not 5 in location, as they are not the site of the war. They don't even border Fjordlaand. Also, you missed the fact that Onguayal has been expanding with every single military update for the past 15 years.

Is Onguayal independent from Bharat or still a puppet state? Also, it's stability is wrong, there is no way that Onguayal has over 100 million people. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:46, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Puppet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:29, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Andalucia was conquered by Tangiers, so they definately cannot help Onguayal. Also, from what I can find, Australia's player never posted that he was sending any aid to Onguayal, as they are busy revolting against Bharat. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:35, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nah, it's okay :) When this war started, Bharat was still controlling Australia's military, as per Australian and Bharatti agreement of slow independence gain :)  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 15:41, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Have the Australian forces withdrawn prior to the end of the war? LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:29, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Right, for expansion, it is 10 years, not 15 (you can look at the rules). My motive is political, to unite Fjordlaand with the country it was with. I attacked through the country bordering Onguayal/Quecha Republic, so no tactical advantage for them. About Andalucia, I invaded it (Yank was fine with it because of the thing going on with the Spanish state and Dean). I could not topple their government, so I stopped the war, and convinced its government they would lose unless they became a vassal, and they did (it has happened in OTL, and in game).

BTW, I thought it was 100 million because of Indian emigration and stablity of the country. But ok I guess. :/ Imperium Guy 17:47, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. Australian forces were(or, are currently) fighting until the end of the war, so that we would not insult Bharat in any way of disrespect. However, Australia does not wish to participate in any future wars involving Bharat.  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 17:50, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat understands. :D Imperium Guy 18:39, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

The Tangierans conquered the mainland portion of Andalucia's territory, but they allowed Andalucia's government to be exiled to their South American colony. So Andalucia is still independant.

Yank 20:12, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

The areas that make up Onguayal have less than 20 million people, and that is in modern-day times, back then they would have way less. Unless you want Bharat to only have like 100 million people because they all immigrated to all of the different colonies.LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:40, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Lurk, Bharat's population in the 60s was 550-650 million, so I don't think Bharat would be in such a problem. Plus, since that area has had continous immigration and focus, I do think its population should kinda be around 101 million. The Bharatis will have no problem making up the numbers, instead it would be actually much better if people have emmigrated. :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 14:08, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

If the Quechua Republic is part of the war effort, they should be added, so I added them.. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:46, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Put Denmark up there with the rest of the SLD. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:56, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

You know what, I give up. I finish the war, no gains on either side! D: Imperium Guy 14:14, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Next game
Hey when's the next game starting? I've been observing this game for a while now and it seems great. Can't wait for the next one.AP (talk) 05:55, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

When this one ends. I guess it's when it reaches 1991 or something like that. Don't really remember.  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 13:50, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

This game will end in 2012, why would we end it 21 years early? Where did you get that idea?LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:15, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

No idea really now o.O It was either the dream I had, or the comment of someone was deleted already in this page, or it was written somewhere else. :D  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 15:39, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Someone once had the idea that since the last archive was in the 1980s, that that was when it ended, so maybe you added a few years to that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:44, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yes! Something like that reminds me the most xD So yeah, 2012 that is. Really sad to see all this thousand hours of work going away, all cultures will be lost :( :P  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 15:59, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't there a plan to turn the game into a proper timeline? I mean with all the players we currently have, we could create a pretty good timeline out of all this stuff! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:22, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm in, if it happens :D  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 15:20, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Me too, either way, I would like to turn it into a proper time-line as well. -Kogasa 15:28, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues 1960
You all knew that this was coming. I'm going to run through my issues with the map. Yank 22:40, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) While the direction of my expansion of Vietnam's East African coolony was unspecified, I intended that they would expand to the southwest and not the north. The Vietnamese know better than to cross into lands claimed by their Kenian ally.
 * 2) Vietnam's East African colony is now independant as Zanzibar.
 * 3) The Khmer Empire, though I hadn't originally intended a dynastic union, is still not coloured as such.
 * 4) The Tangierans have annexed Morrocco.
 * Zanzibar became independent in 1960.it will appear on the map on 1965.that 's the rules. the map only shows from 1955 to 1959.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's still the matter of the fact that I dislike the borders. Especially because expanding to the north instead of the south west almost completely strangles off any potential expansion for Kenia. Yank 01:11, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

There's also the fact that I had the Ukrainians become a full-fledged member of Lx's Russian Commonwealth, and the map makes it look like they are still part of Russia.

Yank 22:43, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I 'm still thinking on which borders they should have and Which border color they should have (grey or black?).--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Ukrainians would have black borders. The Grey borders are for a nation's internal sub-divisions. Yank 01:11, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Maurituis gained independence from Nippon. Also what's up with the confederacy of Saigyo's colour? Its a weird chequered mash-up. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * As for Saigyō colour, I think Collie made it like that to show that we both control it. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 08:20, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly, i saw that we had a precedent for your case, when Ethiopia and Yemen administered a colony together, and i put that colony in both's colors.this was 200 years ago.so i figured that i'd do the same here.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:48, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, but why is it in patches rather than all over the confederacy? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:41, July 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because i didn't had finished that yet by the time that i posted.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:45, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of Saigyō, the Republic of Kazami had joined Saigyō back in 1950, and is now a part of them. -Kogasa 12:08, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Germany
It's been at least two weeks since Germany did anything in this game. I'm inclined to believe that EzraNYC isn't coming back.

Yank 04:58, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Iraq hasn't posted since 1939 and Austria hasn't posted since 1949 too. But I don't think it would be right for these nations to collapse into civil disarray now as nations don't really tend to do that in the modern age. Maybe a civil war and the German nations go into civil disarray for a while until they are united by Bresalu as the German Empire with Bresalu's King becoming Emperor? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:20, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

MP is on a vacation. He said he'll be back on the 20th.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 17:14, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have Germany dissolve into at least five different states. One shouldn't expect national unity after decades of inactivity.

Yank 19:29, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Von, people declare themselves Emperors and found new Empires far less commonly in the modern age than nations fall into civil disarray. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:40, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

It was an idea of one of the many options we could of taken to do this stuff. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:13, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

First man in space
I thought that it would be a given, and considered to be common respect, but if someone posts that they have achieved something, like the first man in space, it is just plain rude and ridiculous to then go in, contradict them and say "no, I achieved it first". Furthermore, it is ridiculously implausible to say that you sped up a space program by four whole months, all in a single day (January 1, 1961). Anyone attempting to contradict what CrimsonAssassin already posted for their nation's personal glory should be ashamed of themselves, and will get their posts crossed out. Out-of-game unofficial "deals" (where one of the parties didn't even agree) gives you no excuse

It's a good thing we are restricting this technology in the next game, so that foolishness like this does not occur. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:49, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I apologize to Crim. Fine then, we will have the second man in space and forget any of this ever happened.

However, we will be the first on the moon, and that is far more plausible than the lone man China beating three nations to the punch. An alternative to that is a joint operations, but that is left to Crim to decide if he wants to do that or not.

Once again, I apologize to Crim and Han Beifong.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 17:09, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Its not 1 Chinese man who is running the entire Chinese space programme lol, besides anyway Nippon calls dibs on being the first nation to set foot on the moon. Nippon also has bagsyes the moon programme and claims no backsies too. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:53, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how this is plausible. Nippon is not as advanced in space exploration as China, Russia, and Scandinavia, in fact, the only space stuff I recall you doing was the satellite. Also, if China accepts the offers, I see no earthly way that you can beat the four nations. Anyways, as far as I see, dibs are ignored in this game, so don't waste your time.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 17:59, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Lurker. I apologize for the craziness that occurred because of this. Nippon, when we start having larger space stations, I'll build a space station with the other Asian countries if they wish. We're not calling it the Asian Space Station (International Space Station= ISS. Asian Space Station= ASS. Not happening). CrimsonAssassin (talk) 18:10, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">So you interested in a joint moon mission with us? We'll do it if you want do it with us. It's like Kennedy's proposal to Kruschev. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:13, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

No Nippon has actually done more than China, Russia, and Scandinavia we've sent animals and people into space and various different types of satellites and probes. Whereas Denmark has launched the Scandinavia I (I'm assuming its a satellite but it isn't stated outright so it could well be a rocket) and nothing else. Russia has sent 5 sputnik satellites, sent dogs and people into space. China has had the first man in space, animals in space and built the Wèixīng I satellite which hasn't been launched I don't think (it wasn't stated anywhere). Whereas Nippon has launched 2 Fukurokuju-1 satellites, the Susanoo-1 weather satellite, Benzaiten-1 reconnaissance satellite (the world's first & only reconnaissance satellite I might add), the Bentaizen-1 space probe (the first probe to visit the moon) and the first woman in space. Face it, Nippon has accomplished more than each of the individual countries, just maybe not as many satellites as Russia but thats just a numbers game and it depends what the satellites are actually doing. Its 1962, other than people in space, probes and satellites have happened by now anyway? Besides Scraw I said no backsies lol ;)


 * Actualy, 2 of the Sputniks are "weather" satelites...you can probably guess what else they are used for.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:37, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

And yes I am interested in a joint space station with my fellow Asian allies. I will point out that the Asian Space Station in Japanese or Chinese for something would not spell out ASS. Perhaps we un-english the name? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:42, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">I don't care about calling things and dibs and no backsies anymore because my claims were ignored. I dibsed the first orbital man, no one respected that. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:52, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * I did/was until the other nations voided it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:59, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">Correction: China did not respect that. And let's just agree that whoever posts it first (out of Denmark. Nippon, and China) gets it. No arguments after that point. Agreed? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:04, July 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't agree per say, as I could loose out on what I've already claimed but I do note that's probably what is going to happen anyway. I would appropriate it if you guys respected my claims but I doubt any of you will listen (apart from those without a space programme, I love you guys lol) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:09, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

So I'm guessing the moon landing should be in 69, like OTL? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:04, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Dibs
As people know, a recent trend right now is calling dibs on things. I know I've done my fair share, but after seeing how upset people get over things like this, I'm gonna stop doing this. I also encourage you guys to stop calling dibs on things.

People get bent out of shape when dibs go awry and it really does suck for everyone when there's OOC fighting in a map game. You may be thinking, 'Well, just obey the dibs and it won't be a problem'. That is not always the case. Negotiations can be misinterpreted or go wrong.

Another big thing to point out is that it just isn't fun if we call things ahead of time. Imagine the next game if this carries over. We'd be in 1450 and already, people would be calling dibs on artworks, major movements, and wars. Imagine fighting over the exploration of the New World.

Instead of calling dibs, build up to it, make a point that you're shooting for a certain thing IN GAME, and achieve it ASAP. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 22:54, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Clever way to end the current arguments, Red Killa.

Agreed.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:19, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

The next game we are going to have ways of determining who gets major technology, and no real-life artworks are going to exist because their artists won't. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:28, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

I said no backsies! :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:12, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Mystiää

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:1
 * Strength: Mystiää (L), Käwäshiro (S) 6
 * Motive:5 (political)
 * Military Development: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:7
 * 4*2*3=24
 * Editcount= 6242
 * 6242/24*pi=817.07
 * Stability: 2.2^1.25/1.25^2.2*2.5*8 = 32.798676406583893583709950863124 or 32
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 81

Pahang

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Pahang (L), New Maya (M): 7
 * Motive:5 (political)
 * Military Development:9
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance:9
 * 1*4*2*6=48
 * Editcount=4932
 * 4932/48*pi=322.798645
 * Stability:4.7^1.25/1.25^4.7*2.5*8=48
 * Participation: 10
 * Total:93

Result
Mystiää loss.

Discussion
The maximum value of Military development is 15.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:00, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

How come everyone is forgetting movie on the recent algorithms they make? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:29, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Since I lost (it was my intention), I'm going to end it in an armstance, if it's okay (like otl Koreas). -Kogasa 18:38, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

OK. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:39, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Upcoming War
This section is about the upcoming war. I quite frankly do not know whether or not I should join the war.

Yank 18:42, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Wales will join on our allies sides Denamrk, and Russia. We ask Vietnam to join with us our at least be nuetral. If that can be achieved then we will merge with BritainAndr3w777 (talk) 18:44, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. Do what you think is right. I thought this was going to be Asia vs. Europe. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:50, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, if this war goes, do not (or try not to) use any WMDs (and No Nukes) please. I would like video games to exist [when I say that I mean like modern day games, like the PS3/Xbox 360/Wii kinds] (among other things) in this time-line, if it's okay. I know this probably is the least of concern for most, but still... -Kogasa 18:52, July 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * games arent going to be a big thing untill the 70s(AKA, pong), and Asteroids were late sixties, we are still two or three years before that at this time.

No nukes, because there is always MAD! And Vietnam, please side with us!! And who removed my previous post to Yank here? >:( Imperium Guy 18:54, July 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Isn't MAD even worse though? D: It would not only destroy both sides completely, but it would still hinder technology and all... -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 18:58, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree no WMD's @ Imperium Guy, that was my fault I reloaded my web browser during an edit conflict and it removed your post. Sorry.Andr3w777 (talk) 18:59, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Not who, what, edit conflict. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 18:57, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Please, no atomic bombs. You/We/I don't want the Apocalypse to happen.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:36, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Say if I may ask, What is this upcoming war about, scraw said something about Asian countries taking over European lands and I have not been playing largely due to Family issues so if someone can speed my up on events leading up to the war will be great thanks.-Althistoryman11.

They want an in game anologue to WWII with Nippon/Bharat vs Russia, Denmark, Wales and any other European nationAndr3w777 (talk) 01:01, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Unless the main purpose of the war is to totally conquer a nation, the SDL will not get involved. In that case, my nations will do the following: LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:56, July 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Italy will side with Europe unless Vietnam joins the Asian side, in which case they will be neutral as they do not wish to come into conflict with the Vietnamese.
 * Dravidia (and Kongo in Dynastic Union) will aid Bharat, of course.
 * Pahang and New Maya will help whichever side the majority of the other Indonesian nations decide to join.
 * Istoias will be neutral unless attacked.

Kogasa said Finland and his other nations will not participate, so I think that's all the Indonesians or most of them, at least. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 17:53, July 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * For Saigyō, I don't know what Von has in mind, since I and Von both control Saigyō. Personally I want Saigyō to stay out of the war as well, but it's up to Von of what he thinks. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 17:57, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'd have Saigyo help out the Asian side as they are more close to the Asian nations (e.g. Bharat and Nippon) than Europe but yeah they won't get really involved just supporting them from the sidelines like the USA at the start of WW2. But Nippon isn't starting this war, I'm just supporting Bharat as they are my allies against my European rivals, unless their is a good reason to start the war (e.g. you assassinate my emperor or something). Also if Nippon does go war fully then nukes shall be used. But the whole MAD thing is stopping Nippon starting the war themselves, unless you guys dare to provoke Nippon. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:34, July 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Saigyo can always just send supplies, if you want to help the Asians but you don't want to go to full-on war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:19, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Listen, I really think we should ban the use of WMDs. Nukes can be used as a last resort at the end of the war, however, like the USA bombed Japan to end WWII. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:35, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well nukes are exactly the reason why the nuclear armed nations never went straight up against each because of MAD. But why would 2 nations at war not use their strongest weapons? I was trying to start a bit of a cold war conflict with the whole Wonderlaand thing in order to avoid nuclear war but you guys didn't fully take the bait. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:18, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm still confused about the situation. Who's on each side, and why is the war going to happen? Keep in mind that the side that gets my coalition/alliance gets 15 points to their strength. Yank 11:14, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, its mainly a war between Asian and European powers to see who emerges the victor of the cold war. S Vietnam would be more suited to join the Asian powers (Nippon-Bharat). :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 12:52, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Then all of my countries will join the Asian side. All of them. Even the ones that technically European. Why? Because I consider them a package deal. Yank 13:07, July 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * In that case, Italy will be neutral in this war, as they do not want to go to war with Vietnam, but they don't want to oppose their fellow Europeans (including their fellow Catholic nations of the Brythonic Union and Scandanavia) LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:24, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

I think we can predict something of a victory on the Asian side, as I believe that the sheer numbers of the Asian side are overwelming. I want Russia's Alaskan colony and every square inch of Wales that I can take. I want to keep control of Britain in my hands. Yank 00:23, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the only reason Asia will win is because yall have all yer extra nations. Colonies, puppets, vassals, client states, etc. The European nations have  absolutely none  of those, except New Wales and Nouvelle Copenhague. In fact, the only nation to have any of that is Hungary, and still we cannot defeat your 30+ nations. Also, Lurk, can Israel join the European side or no?

Since Imp has taken to task of asking all the Asian nations and Hungary to join Bharat's side on the war, I took to the task of riling up all of Europe and anyone else I can get. But currently we beat Asia.

So far this is what we have: Did I miss anyone?
 * Europe: Russia (L), Denmark (M), Norway (M), Sweden (M), Greenland (M), Arctica (M), Wales (M), Nouvelle Copenhague (MV), New Wales (MV), maybe Lx will pull in his whole commonwealth, as I believe all of the commonweath nations have to join when one of them comes under attack, then the Iroquois Confederacy (MV), Breslau (M), Czechland (M), Byzantium (M), and Ethiopia (M). Grand total of 37. Not much. But when I add the commonwealth nations we get 64. Still not much. Since Russia is a European Council member, I have to include the rest of the Council: Greece (M), Castille (M), and Flanders (M). That makes the total 73. But then we have the other members: Italy and Hungary. Lurk, you said Italy's not going to join. And Collie is still undecided which side to join. Finland is also in the Council. Kogasa said he's staying neutral. Now than Italy and Finland are going to ejected from the Union, but I guess that's not very important. The EC is pretty much worth nothing to all of us.
 * Now let me count Asia and all that other coloniespuppetsvassalsclientstatesetcetc.
 * Bharat (L), Onguayal (M), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Govapuri (M), USA (M), Songone (MV), Muisca (MV), Käwäshiro (M), Finland (S), Manoa (M), Andalucia (MV), Quechua Republic (MV), Dravidia (M), Kongo (MV): 46 alone. Now let me add Nippon and Vietnam and China. We get 55.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:47, July 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * About the European Council, Finland already left the EC in 1939, so it's been a while. Also, you have Käwäshiro and Finland on the Asian Side, which isn't supposed to be. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 05:30, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, I just copied that from Bharat's last war. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, July 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * The European Council Is officially Dead. After the war we need a new anolouge, Perhaps we can try the UN thing again?Andr3w777 (talk) 13:07, July 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Uh, Vietnam commands 15 points, so 46+15 = 61. Plus Nippon has around 12 points, so 61+12 = 73. We then have China... and Dongfang and the SA puppet making the total: 73+9 = 82!!! :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:10, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, don't get your hopes up high. That 46 and half of your other numbers need recalculation. And I'm only counting nation point, not the whole algorithm. I noticed that about you. You tweak algorithms. A lot. Puppets are not 3, they're two. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming that this huge facedown is dead, so I'm going to cease my involvement with it.

Yank 18:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure yet! :D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:10, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it pretty much is. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to recalculate. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Europe: Russia (L), Denmark (M), Norway (M), Sweden (M), Greenland (M), Arctica (M), Wales (M), Nouvelle Copenhague (MV), New Wales (MV), maybe Lx will pull in his whole commonwealth, as I believe all of the commonweath nations have to join when one of them comes under attack, then the Iroquois Confederacy (MV), Breslau (M), Czechland (M), Byzantium (M), and Ethiopia (M). Grand total of 37. Not much. But when I add the commonwealth nations we get 64. Still not much. Since Russia is a European Council member, I have to include the rest of the Council: Greece (M), Castille (M), and Flanders (M). That makes the total 73. But then we have the other members: Italy and Hungary. Lurk, you said Italy's not going to join. And Collie is still undecided which side to join. Now then Italy is going to ejected from the Union, but I guess that's not very important. The EC is pretty much worth nothing to all of us.
 * Now let me count Asia and all that other coloniespuppetsvassalsclientstatesetcetc.
 * Bharat (L), Onguayal (M), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Govapuri (M), USA (M), Songone (MV), Muisca (MV), Manoa (M), Andalucia (MV), Quechua Republic (MV), Dravidia (M), Kongo (MV): 40 alone. Now let me add Nippon and Vietnam and China and their other stuffs: 60.


 * Hey, Byzantium and Greece are the same thing.you either count one or the other.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:15, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Caribbean Federation
Since Galaguerra is gone, can I take over the Caribbean Federation? As one of the major parts of it (Ricasolia) was mine before I voluntarily had them join, and I never officially gave up my control of Ricasolia. That would prevent them from breaking apart or collapsing. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:56, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and Could I have Itsahagi from france, as the only reason why it is not part of The Iroquois/Russian Commonwealth is because Gal beat me to it!-Lx (leave me a message) 15:46, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Itsaygahi isn't owned by France, it was taken over briefly by the Caliphate and then became independent from them. Therefore, they are independent, and don't really have any reason to join Russia. I'll overthrow their government the next moderator event to have an independent state (grey colored), but unless you want to start a global war over Itsaygahi, I would advise you not to try to conquer them. They'd revolt in a decade or so anyways. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:55, July 19, 2012 (UTC)\

They do have many linguistic and cultural links with the Iroquois, much more than with the Caliphate, so The Ohio part at least, the newest and least muslim would join the Iroquois beacasue of cultural links, but keeping them Blue if they are independant is realy misleading.-Lx (leave me a message) 16:57, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

They became independent colonies, so they kept the color of the main nation's independent colonies. The next turn I'll topple the government to make them independent. I'm afraid that Itsaygahi would have no real reason to join up as a puppet state short of being conquered. The State of Ohayo is primarily Alqonquian, not Iroquoian. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:24, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I have to object to you guys, the Caribbean federation was meant to be becoming part of the Federation of the Americas. See Gal's talk page & mine. I was waiting for him to return to just okay his nation joining up with mine. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:22, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

OK, how about this: I have Ricasolia become the dominant state in the Caribbean Federation next turn, and then I have the Ricasolian-dominated CF join with the Federation of the Americas. Then we can control it jointly like you do with Kogasa in Saigyō. That way it works for us both. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:44, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah sure, the federation of the Americas was going to be a jointly controlled nation anyway <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:11, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

OK, so the next turn, you can just incorporate Ricasolia (Cuba), Haiti, Isolque (Bahamas) and Mixxixxippi (the westernmost of the former Itsaygahi states) into the federation of the Americas, since for that turn and the next, I won't be able to post.

What should the color combo be though? The dark pink for the former Nipponese USA, of course, but should the other color be the light yellow for the former Neapolitan Ricasolia, light blue for the former French Haiti (the color used for the CF currently), or something else? (light green for former Venetian Isolque or light pink for former Itsaygahi are other options)



Here are, side by side, one map using the light blue, and another map using the light yellow:

So which color should we use?

Oh year, by the way, Collie, the map of the three Itsaygahi nations (Oyaho, Seminole, and Tsalagi) is correct in this map)

LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:50, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'll go with the orange looking map colour, there's an awful lot of blue-ish colours on the map already. Plus I like the colour more, so you have my approval twice over :P <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:42, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

How you thinking the federation of the America's would react to the possible Europe-Asia war btw Lurk? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:32, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

I like the Orange as well! Plus, I think they will follow Onguayal, so the Asian side! :P Imperium Guy 14:24, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

The Orange is good. We don't really have any Orange-colored nations other than Neue Brandenburg (lots of shades of yellow though), and since they have no colonies, we are unlikely to have another light orange-colored nation to be confused with.

As for the war, there really isn't any feeling of kinship with any nations on any side for the Caribbean portions tha just joined significant enough to force them to any side. The Mon/Japanese combined culture of the older parts could push them to the aid of the Asian side, assuming that their split with Japan was good (I forget how they broke away). An alliance with Onguayal could make them help the Asians as well. They were fairly interventionist, so I imagine the entire AF would send supplies to the Asian side at least, with some states sending military aid as well. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:20, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues 1965
The Ukrainian state's border with Russia should be black. Yank 13:56, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

The Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha bought the Austrian Australia colony (Franzland) from Austria a few turns ago so its part of the commonwealth now. Not its own separate region mind you, just part of Ngainkeha. Plus Sunda joined the Imperial Confederation of Saigyō too. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:53, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

And for the umpteenth time, Denmark/Scandinavia owns the Arctic Island above Canada! It was Norwegian territory and the whole of Norway joined Denmark! And I own Nouvelle Champagne, the inner part of New Wales. He sold it to me. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:16, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yes I told you that Denmark owns Nouvelle Champagne which is the inner side of New WalesAndr3w777 (talk) 00:07, July 21, 2012 (UTC)



Russia's border with Ukraine is not as I intended, and to tell you now, I had a very hard time. Chrimea was and is about 80% russian, and would not very gladly join a russian state. alhtout I found this map...its very hard to draw due to lack of landmarks(unlike Georgia to witch I had the twists and turns of the black sea and the Caspian sea for transcaucasia). I found a map, and the regions that were on the southeast that are 30+ percent would preferably not join the ukraine(and the part DIRECTLY above chrimen, but not the entire province there, just the southern part). Please try to make this part I mentioned part of Russia, becasue it is the most ethnicaly Russian part of contemporary Ukraine(and less people hate and only speak russian in crucial circumstances because Stalin didnt do the forced collectivizatoin and killed many millions). And yes, the border with Russia should be black-Lx (leave me a message) 00:06, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

When I had Burgundy declare independance I had them reclaim all of their former territory. Why does Burgundy only have half of their territory? Yank 17:32, July 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, i didn't had references, so i got a map with the area considered as Burgundy on the Charlemagnan Empire, and granted them most areas that weren't Occitan.what were your plans? the Duchy of Burgundy had part of this area, and most of Netherlands.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:35, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * My plans were to have them regain the territory they had before they were annexed into France, minus Flanders and Savoy. Yank 02:41, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Bharat (L), Onguayal (M), Bihar (MV), Assam (MV), Afghanistan (M), Bengal (M), Bengali vassal (MV), Govapuri (M), Manoa (M), Andalucia (MV), Quechua (M), Nippon (M), Chamoru (MV), Shubuudan (MV), Eetoria and Ngainkeha (M), Saigyō (M), USA (M), Muscia (MV), Songone (MV): 50
 * Military Development: 12
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 6
 * Time: 00:02 = 2
 * Edit count: 8,660
 * (8,660 / 2) *pi = 13 603.09 6 2
 * Stability: ((5.7^1.25) / (1.25^5.7)) * 2.5 * 9 = 55.54423 = 56
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 140

Portugal

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Portugal (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 2 (RNG)
 * Stability: ((7.6^1.25) / (1.25^7.6)) * 2.5 * 8 = 46.29465 = 46
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 69

Result
((140 / (140 + 69)) *2) -1 = 0.339358 = 34%

Bharat topples Portugal's government and will decide what to do with it.

Discussion
How many times do i have to say, they still are a colony.you can't declare war on them without declaring war on Portugal first.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:28, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, thanks! :/ Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:10, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Now, if you get the 33% of warscore (if is called like this), this will be just to annex the colony?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:36, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if I get that, I'll ask Yank if Tangiers would fancy Portugal, and ask him to give support if the answer is yes. If it is no, then only the colony will be taken. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:42, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Uh, excuse, I, Denmark, and Nouvelle Copenhague have already attacked those two grey Portuguese colonies on the coast...so any Bharati gains should be voided. It is mine! Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:14, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary will support Portugal if the case for Tangerian annzexation happens.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:11, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Andr3w777
Andr3w just made a post that partially erased some of my work. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that is against the rules. Yank 02:50, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

??? Did he literally get rid of some of your text or write something that contradicts it? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:55, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Wait I see what happened. Do you not understand the concept of "edit conflicts?" Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:57, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

I know about edit conflicts all too well. But why would the wiki actually register my edit if they conflicted? I distinctly remember that one edit usually gets recognized while the other gets forgotten. Yank 03:21, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to explain. Your post came in first. Andrew had copied his post and everything that existed before you posted. He just pasted that without seeing what you had added to your post, and that is how a part of post disappeared. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:28, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

...That doesn't happen. What should have happened was that his post would not have been posted andhe would have to post it again. No trouble there. Imp (Say Hi?!) 11:09, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-left: 24px">That's exactly what happens with edit conflicts. It's all about copy and paste. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:07, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Something similar happened to me a few days ago. I posted, and then the next day when I went to post, I noticed my post from the previous day was gone. I think it was just accidental, but if it keeps happening then I think action should be taken against the perpetrator. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:19, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

What are you people going on about. I TOLD YOU YANK THAT IT WAS A DANG EDIT CONFLICT. I HIT BACKSPACE TO REPOST AND YOUR POST WAS GONE, I EVEN APOLOGIZED UP TOP. THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANY OF YOU TO ASSUME HOSTILITY. Yank, I didn't mean to do that, I don'y know what is happening but you all must know I didn't do it intentionally. @ Imp that is what I did originally, his post still vanished. It would be great if PEOPLE ASKED ME BEFORE ACCUSSING ME OF SOMETHING. I AM NOT DEAN, I DO NOT ACT OT IF CHILDISHNESS.Andr3w777 (talk) 13:14, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

And yet your comment reads like a child's temper tantrum. Yank 18:21, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

You guys really do not get it. Allow me to demonstrate:

Yank edited the section "423" and said XYZ.

However, at the same time, Andrew was editing 423. However, he wrote ABC, and when he was writing ABC, XYZ did not exist yet. He copied everything that existed when he was writing, and that was DEF ABC. XYZ did not exist before Yank posted it. Andrew went back to edit 423, pasted DEF ABC, and posted. Thusly, XYZ disappeared. It is very simple, and if you refuse to accept it and apologize of accusing him of something he did not do, that's your problem.

And for the record Yank, I don't know how you read it, but I hardly see that as a tantrum if you look at practically anything Dean has ever said.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:07, July 22, 2012 (UTC)