Talk:Luna: Earth II

The New "Map Game"
Hello anyone and everyone. I have thought about it and I decided to make this a timeline more open ("opener", if you will,) so I decided to make a few changes to this timeline. As Jazon mentioned below, I am "putting Lunans on a bus." I will have to get rid of many of them in either an asteroid collision or a plague. That'll leave a lot more land for humans to colonize.

I already made a map for the "United Nations of Luna Coastal Issue Reserve" (the two poles that I'll keep only for coastal inhabitants, in burgundy) the USSR colony (in red) and the Lunan Near-Extinction survivors (in black). If you are interested, edit the image and place your colony wherever you please. Please save the file as .PNG. ChrisL123 01:29, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

I've been heavily interested in this timeline and wanted to intervene for some time, and this has given me an idea which is a joint Latin America colony named "Libertadores" or something, consisting of the Hispano-American nations who signed the Space Colonization treaty plus Colombia and Bolivia. However, I'm not sure of it's plausibility and wanted to check. What do you think? Fed (talk) 02:18, May 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, very interesting thought. I never thought of that actually. I'll consider it, thanks for your contribution! ChrisL123 03:39, May 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I will be U.S.S.RAlexanders 14:51, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Gravity issue
The Moon's gravity was waaaaaaaaaaaay to small to keep any atmosphere it made and it whould escape regardless of a magnetic feild or not. Bobalugee1940 20:50, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, my apologies. I never realized gravity had a key role in it's atmosphere. I'll change a few things right away. Thank you for your input. ChrisL123 22:12, May 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit: I looked up the only moon to have an atmosphere, Titan, and Titan's gravity is even less than that of the moon's, and it's enough to keep an atmosphere even without a magnetic field. ChrisL123 22:46, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

You're failing to take into account the presence of Saturn, with a much more massive field than earth could ever produce, and the other, smaller, moons, near Titan, and how that atmosphere is able to maintained, in large part because of this presence. I suggest having a look at the wikipedia article on Titan's atmosphere before you go on assuming like that.

There is no way that the moon, without massive amounts of terraforming, will ever hold an atmosphere. And, the point raised below here by South is indeed correct.

Lordganon 10:22, May 2, 2011 (UTC)

Species
The luanan type b's sexually reproducing tail is counter-intuitive as the same reason that no creature on earth has one is beacuse the male has to see were to put it and that the hips move the other way so that it is extremley hard to use. there's a reason we don't have our groin the other way around. Bobalugee1940 20:55, May 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi again;

The sexually reproducing tail was influenced by the Na'vi's queue from Avatar. I should also mention there that the tail can be easily moved to the side or under the legs for easier access. Thank you again for your input! ChrisL123 22:12, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

"Junk Science"
I will leave the arguments against evolution alone, for that would mess with a lot of "good science fiction." However, just a few things --

Gravity

 * One, if anything, the lunans would be shorter, not taller based on the sheer fact of body mechanics. A giant on the earth can only be so tall before it will find the laws of physics to work against it. With a gravity one sixth of the earth's an 11-ft lunan would be the same as a 66-ft tall man on earth. Such is not possible. More than likely, to "cope with" the lesser gravity Lunans be perhaps three feet tall at most.
 * Thanks for your input; the only reason I made the lunans tall was for them to weigh more. If they were in fact three feet tall they would be, say, about 50 Earth pounds. Thus, the lunans would be close to weightless, so walking, crawling, childbirth, all activities would be close to impossible to handle.
 * Actually, the low gravity would make the lunans incredibly agile. On Luna, things would naturally evolve smaller, based on the reduced gravity. However, you have not established how much gravity that would be, so the density of the bodies (as well as the height of plants, etc.) would have to wait until that fact is established.


 * The ATL gravity of Luna is 3.24400 m/s2, approximately 1/3 of Earth's gravity. One of the main reasons lunans are so tall is becuase I'd assume it wouldn't be helpful for adult lunans to be around 1.5 feet tall, being around 25 pounds, bouncing around on the surface, trying to do what we humans do. I'm sure you saw a bit of OTL's Apollo moon landing. Humans couldn't handle the low gravity at around 6 feet tall. Even at 2 times the gravity, there's no way a smaller creature could handle the weaker gravity. ChrisL123 03:31, May 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not a physicist, nor a biologist, but I am pretty sure that weight and mass compensate for reduced gravity just fine. In fact, when astronauts are reintroduced to earth's gravity after long stays in space (micro-gravity), they are overwhelmed because their muscles had adjusted to the lack of gravity in space. With evolution at work on a planet with one third earth's gravity, the creatures that evolved would be proportionate to the conditions there. Sure, things can be taller there, but there would be no evolutionary necessity for it.
 * I asked Wikipedia about it on their Science Reference desk. One thinks "humans might be taller or of the same height but with less massive skeletons, and able to climb and leap from heights with less fear of injury, like chimpanzees and monkeys," and other contributors really don't answer the question. I guess we both may be wrong. ChrisL123 21:07, May 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * The point about the 'less massive skeletons' means that whatever height they are, they'd be lighter, not heavier. The agility is a plus, no matter what size they are.  The fact that there is any gravity at all means that whatever life evolved would be well adjusted and with no problems getting around.  A very old newspaper 'comic strip' featuring detective "Dick Tracy" postulated humanoids the same size as earthlings living in a ravine "Moon Valley" near the terminus between the near and far sides.  I don't recall if they were more agile than people from earth. SouthWriter 21:43, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Magnetic field

 * Second, there is no way earth's magnetic field would both grow to engulf the moon and also support life on the earth. A magnetic field that strong would keep the earth too hot for life to begin there. Other than that, the evolutionary science, as such, seems to make sense. SouthWriter 04:52, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I gave it a lot of thought and I think the best route for this is to make the moon's core much larger, possibly 2/3 of the moon's total volume, which should let gravity keep the atmosphere. Of course I'll have to rewrite most of the information here. Thanks a lot for your help! ChrisL123 20:12, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit: the comment about "larger magnetic field making Earth too hot for life" doesn't seem plausible; a larger magnetic field would mean sunlight and UV rays would be stopped sooner, making it colder for Earth. If I'm wrong let me know. ChrisL123 21:36, May 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, making the moon larger - on par with Titan - would give it the gravity needed. It would also increase its own magnetic field to protect it from UV and gamma rays as happened on earth. To answer the second question, the increase of magnetic fields cause what is caused "induction heating" as the magnetic energy causes as flow of electrical energy within the metallic core. The magnetic fields deflect the coronal ejections (plasma) and solar wind (electrons), but sunlight, including UV radiations needs an atmosphere to absorb and distribute it. The atmosphere is not metallic, so it would not be affected by a magnetic field. In fact, Venus has no magnetic field at all, but has a very thick atmosphere. SouthWriter 00:07, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Most people fail to realize that gravity is based on not overall mass but on density. If you take an enlarged moon and make it out of denser materials, it could theoretically sustain enough atmosphere for life. (The moon itself has a very faint atmosphere, but its almost entirely impossible to find) However, what this does to the orbit of the earth and whatnot... I have no idea, but I assume it's bad. Michael Douglas 01:49, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Instead of the moon being larger I let the core be larger, so I really kill three birds with one stone (atmosphere, magnetic field, gravity.) If the Moon were to be larger, that would mean that more of the Earth was taken away, so continents would be totally different and I don't want to deal with that. I hope nothing's wrong with that! ChrisL123 02:08, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * All of these changes to the moon - but especially the increased gravity, will indeed have adverse effect on the earth. As it is, there is a delicate balance now. The increased tidal forces upon the earth would make the earth very inhospitable, if not an impossible place for life to thrive. It seems that with a denser core you would be still be altering the supposed ejected material from the earth. If this were the case, the earth would have had its own problems in development. All in all, this is a difficult "what if" scenario. It does not work well as "alternate history" but could perhaps be on a sci-fi wiki with good success. SouthWriter 12:58, May 3, 2011 (UTC
 * I'm sorry, I beg to differ. There are other alternate histories that deal with the changes in planets that lead to terraforming, etc. and they seem just fine as they are. ChrisL123 01:18, May 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Both the very good Venus articles and the earlier attempt at Mars are not faced with the scientific difficulties that a different evolution would have upon the earth. The writers of these articles bring the history of the earth into a reasonable connection with very different neighbors that do not have sentient lifeforms to interact with earth. the "White Star Jupiter" fantasy does not attempt to explain how the changes in the whole solar system leave the earth unchanged until first contact. That one, like this one, does not work well as alternate history either. By the way, "terraforming" is the science of restructuring an alien planetary body to be "earth-like." It is not a natural process.
 * Thank you for pointing out Mars and Jupiter articles. I had not seen them. I cannot be everywhere, and I just came upon the Luna article by accident. To have Mars and Venus develop differently has no adverse effect on the earth. To have our moon develop as a denser, inhabited planet on its own, though, can change things drastically all the way back to the beginning of life on earth. That sort of thing is hard to deal with as alternate history. I have one I put up that tilts the earth 90 degrees (poles on our equator) and even that makes developing a history very difficult. The fact that these other attempts have gone unnoticed does not necessarily make them "just fine." SouthWriter 02:33, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your argument about changes, but there aren't much changes on life on Earth from Luna's existence. The only two changes I can think of (that I have dealt with) are:
 * 1) Denser core leading to greater atmosphere which leads to higher tides on Earth, but not catastrophic ones. Tsunamis, floods, etc. may be harsher, but wouldn't threaten life on Earth that drastically.
 * 2) Life on Earth was most likely brought to Earth thanks to Luna, so life on Earth shouldn't be affected. (briefly dealt with on )
 * Plus, this timeline doesn't just deal with Luna being habitable and that's it. Luna: Earth II also deals with Religion, wars (one so far, but I have others in mind) and colonies being altered due to Luna's existence and its effect on human culture. ChrisL123 02:55, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

does anyone knew why the people on Luna would devolpe their technogly so quicklyEmpire1994 00:22, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * There are two reasons for this.
 * 1) Lunans (the people on Luna) are larger in size due to the low gravity = larger brain = more cranial capacity
 * 2) Lunan Type-Bs can use their tails to merge their thoughts, which means they can communicate and share information faster. "Putting their heads together" means they can learn and discover new things at a faster rate.
 * It's mentioned on the page. ChrisL123 00:44, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm....
I've been thinking it over, and I think I'm going to have to get rid of a lot of. I don't like the colonies in the poles, honestly. I was thinking perhaps a close-extinction event, possibly a wide-spread disease or an asteroid impact that wipes out a lot of the lunar population on Luna. Maybe that way I could have a timeline that is more open to colonies perhaps. Comments? ChrisL123 23:02, May 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, in OTL the Moon is littered with craters of all sizes-the Lunar atmosphere could not keep out all those, so there's your extinction event right there. Secondly why are you basically putting the Lunans on a bus? Isn't this TL more or less centered around them?


 * Either way, this is an awesome TL, probably the best of the Other Habitable World(s)' Althistory genre.

Jazon Naparleon 23:15, May 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * While the Lunans may be one of the biggest things that could've happened in this timeline, I really don't think I can do much else with just two colonies on Luna. Killing out most Lunans would leave a lot of land available. Of course there will be survivors that would try their hardest to get by on Luna, but this partial-extinction event will have to wipe out a lot. Just a thought. Thanks about the "awesome TL" statement, by the way. Any other thoughts? ChrisL123 00:31, May 22, 2011 (UTC)