Talk:Provisional Indiana (1983: Doomsday)

Guys remember the. All new articles must be marked with the proposal template. Mitro 12:03, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Doomsday
This section has a lot of issues. First, Dan Quayle wasn't VP until 1989, six years after Doomsday. Second, I can't find any information that even hints that he said such a thing to Orr. The whole section contradicts the already established POD of the TL and really needs to be removed or revised. Mitro 12:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you removed the references to Quayle, but the stuff on Orr is still an issue. You seem to suggest he knew Doomsday was coming and he planned for it. Again this is unlikely and I have not found anything to suggest that Orr was preparing for a nuclear war OTL. If this is the case than this article contradicts the POD still. Mitro 18:27, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I fixed it and it seems that most of the state goes in chaos, and the attack would of also killed Orr and most of the Goverment. I'm sorry I dont understand this, "POD", what is that?

Perryz101 03:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * POD is short for "point of divergence". Its the point where all history as we know it changes, in this case there is a nuclear war on September 26, 1983. That being said, everything before that point has to happen exactly as it did in our history. Mitro 03:35, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana (1983: Doomsday)
Hi, Perryz. I suggest that you read this article before doing anything else on this new republic. This time line is a group effort, and we need to check what has been written about an area first before we jump into an article. The information so far is mostly based on this map, though exceptions have been made. Any utilization of Dan Quayle has to assume he was not in Washington DC or was one of those that escaped somehow. If he was with George Bush, for instance, he would have ended up in Australia! SouthWriter 05:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yes I understand Southwriter and I fixed my mistakes with Dan Quayle and Orr, Perryz101 20:45, April 22, 2010 (UTC)



I was also thinking of a new map, that alot of the cities might of lived, and could of maybe made contact by 2010,the cities of West Lafeyette, Lafeyette, Richmond,Kokomo,Frankfort, Muncie,Wabash,Marion,Warsaw,Logansport,Monticello,Delphi,Flora,Crawfordsville,Winchester,Portland,Rochester,Anderson and that Terre Haute with Brazil might of lived, but I am thinking about the Indiana National Guard, and the 181st Intel wing and that it could of been a target, Peru also could of been destroyed.Perryz101 21:16, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Rep_of_Indiana_damage.png, again, Perry. You have done some great homework! Your list of towns (looking to be county seats, it seems) is fabulous. However, I looked up their locations on Google Earth and produced the map to the left based on the FEMA map overlaid with your map. I added some counties, and noted the damage to some of the cities you suppose could have survived. Of the ones listed, only Kokomo looks to have taken a direct hit (if we go by the FEMA map). I am not sure about what the map makers were thinking with an off center hit with Terre Haut, but the way they made the map, the southwestern part of the city is in the 50% damage (orange) ring. However the center of the blast seems to have been in the northeastern quarter, putting Brazil inside of the 25% ring. Therefore, I'd say Terre Haut was 75%-80% destroyed.


 * The other cities your mentioned are marked without comment. A good spread across the state!


 * I was not criticizing on Dan Quayle, by the way, but commenting that as a prominent Indianian he might be useful in the development of this republic -- IF he survived. SouthWriter 16:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

I really like the map you gave me, and the the nuclear strikes look good, and the counties also do too, but I think we should talk a little more about Dan Quayle and Terre Haute/Brazil and hold off until we can prove that it wasn't a direct hit and that Dan Quayle lived.

The matter of getting fuel to the people is large, and if we could get Trenton Gas Field, located in easten-central Indiana it would mean fuel to the people, Power is provided by wind mills, with about 531 wind towers. Perryz101 19:41, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * [I changed the format on your reply to more easily repond.]


 * The creators of this timeline left things unclear about who escaped Washington, DC. There was at most two hours warning before most communications were wiped out and the bombs started exploding. Reagan and Bush escaped from the two most bombed cities in the world (logistics of it were left unexplained), and Bush ended up in the bunker meant for the Congress (who apparently didn't make it there). Nothing is said about choice Senators and/or Representatives meeting Bush at the bunker. Apparently no bunker inside the beltway would have been safe enough, so anyone who escaped had to have found deep shelter within an hour's drive of the capitol. Dan Quayle may not have been in Washington that weekend, so some investigation would be need to find this out.


 * It doesn't matter too much about Terre Haute, unless you want to spare it totally. The FEMA maps are just a guide anyway. The Indiana page doesn't even list Indianapolis, but the capitol would be an obvious target (FEMA has three or four blasts over the city!).


 * I checked to see what I could find on the Trenton Gas Field. It seems that there is a lot of oil there, but since the natural gas was depleted so quickly from the 1880's to about 1910, there is no easy way to get the oil out of the ground. Usually, the natural gas is used to push the oil up from underneath, so it might take as much energy to pull it out of the ground as it would provide in petrolium products. Perhaps the windmills could be used to pump oil. Then, there would be the problem of refining the oil. Natural gas needs very little treatment to be used. But crude oil is almost useless! SouthWriter 05:09, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Back to the map. Kokomo has to go, the hit upon it is almost direct. Nearby Peru would have survived a direct hit, but would have been abandoned due to it's closeness to the blast and immediate fallout. You need to remove Kokomo from the list of "other cities." SouthWriter 15:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Alright,I'm thinking that Terre Haute is got to go due to the Intel and Newport Chemical Depot.


 * Well, Terre Haute does seem to be a target in the 1999 maps. However, was Intel even in Indiana in 1983? They had been in buisiness for over a decade, but they did not really get to be so influencial until they, like Microsoft, made a deal with IBM and brought "PC's" into just about every home in America. And that was after 1983. I agree with NCD, that is the explosion above Terre Haute on the map. SouthWriter 15:41, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana National Guard had a 181st Tactical Fighter Group (1962–1992) and it says it also had fighters they're too.Perryz101 16:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Potential
Though I agree further research is needed, I think the idea has potential. Indiana has a smaller population than most of the rust belt, and a more spread out one. I wouldn't be surprised to see enough infrastructure and agricultural base, along with a core of National Guard or regular Army forces, in existence following Doomsday to hammer together a regional republic in a ring around the Indianapolis and central IN strikes, more or less. Possibility of some kind of association with Superior and later function as a bridge between Superior and Kentucky/Virginia when contact is reestablished, maybe.--Loughery111 16:07, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's poorly developed as is, but with some development could easily become a very viable proposal. I honestly don't see any "Republic" encompassing the entire state but several small-to-medium city states within its borders as of TTL 2010; that was my idea when I wrote the Indiana 1983: Doomsday article. I also wrote that as a jumping off point for other editors, so just as I told Loughery that my South Bend-is-abandoned blurb is not written in stone, neither is it written in stone that there is no "Republic of Indiana". If you can make it plausible, then it should be given strong consideration for canonization. Best of luck to you!BrianD 17:53, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Government
First, why change from the established and familiar representative democracy, headed by a single person (a proven formula in times of crisis where a quick decision is often needed)? It is not clear why this republic has changed so drastically. Is this because the counties have developed their own systems and do not wish to work as one - thus a "confederation" among them is needed instead? [By the way, "county" and "canton" are virtually the same thing, sort of like "Republic" and "Commonwealth" - different original languages, but same meaning.]

Second, when bouncing between the known (republican) and the hypothetical, you seem to be mixing terms. A Chancellor becomes a President a paragraph later, for instance. If you are going to use the newmodel, use the terms consistently. SouthWriter 16:53, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

The counties did have they're own systems, and then joined together and liked the Swiss ran they're nation so they basicly just copyed, the President and Chancellor are very diffrent Lucas Alexander Schad is the President and the Chancellor is being voted on.Perryz101 19:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * And so, what we have here is the several counties (ten presently, as I understand you line up) send two delegates each to the capital, and the national council has 100 members drawn at large based on population. This corresponds with OTL Senate and House of Representatives. It then is up to these two bodies to chose the Federal Council (I would suppose from among themselves) which corresponds to our President, Vice President and cabinet. I took the liberty of looking up "Chancellor" in wikipedia::


 * "In Switzerland, the Federal Chancellor (Bundeskanzler, Chancelier fédéral, Cancelliere della Confederazione) is elected by the Swiss parliament. He or she heads the Federal Chancellery, the general staff of the seven-member executive Federal Council, the Swiss government. The Chancellor participates in the meetings of the seven Federal Councilors with a consultative vote and prepares the reports on policy and activities of the council to parliament. The chancellery is responsible for the publication of all federal laws." 'Chancellor - Wikipedia'


 * So, in Switzerland, the chancellor is at the same time "moderator" of the meeting, and "secretary" of the group of seven. This title, then, would take the role of the President in cabinet meetings, and afterwards the role of the federal printing office in getting the laws decided in council to the courts and law enforcement agencies. This whole system is far from a "direct democracy." I find it hard to imagine a population of struggling counties deciding to do away with the representative government they had lived with since statehood for a foreign system such as this. It may seem quaint and "neat" to you, but it seems rather unnatural for a bunch of farmers in the midwest to decide to do when they "start over." SouthWriter 20:20, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Mhm...I can see what your coming from, but these arnt just "A bunch of Farmers", clearly thats what its too you, to me its my fellow hoosiers, I will consider to turn it into a republic.Perryz101 20:44, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Alright I think Indiana is better off as a Republic, your right Hoosiers woulden go that far from they're old goverment.Perryz101 21:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Littles
Hmm.... One family -- with the women prominent! Anyone you know, or are they just made-up? SouthWriter 15:46, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the last name, first name.. no, most of the family is women and not really political, so mostly made up...I just liked the last name, so I used it.Perryz101 01:42, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Nation Infobox
Everytime I try to improve your nation infobox, your next revision changes it back. I use the source code to change it the appearance so that it reads something like this:

Republic of Indiana

Timeline: 1983: Doomsday

_______ _________


 * ______| |________|

flag of Ind CoA of Ind

Instead of the awkward

Republic of Indiana (1983:

Doomsday)

_______ _________


 * ______| |________|

flag of RoI CoA of RoI

(1983:DD) (1983:DD)

All I am doing is trying to make your info box conform to the others. Are you switching it back, or is it the template reverting on its own?

[It actually took me longer to make those facsimiles than to take a couple of screen shots! SouthWriter 22:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Nope, Ive havn't done anything.Perryz101 22:37, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Turn off rich text editor. Anytime you try to edit an infobox with it on it removes the name. Mitro 22:40, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I always edit info boxes with the rich text editor turned off. The templates are notoriously unreliable. For some reason, when Perry makes a change in the text of the article, the changes I make to the info box disappear when he saves the changes. Perhaps he is using the "Edit this page" feature instead of editing sections individually. --SouthWriter 23:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

What are you trying to do?Perryz101 19:17, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just spent an hour or so debugging the infobox on your article. While I was there I tweeked the formatting to make the site look a little better. I tried not to change any of your essensial information in the process. I ended up "replacing" the infobox with one configured a little bit differently, but still maintaining the information there. SouthWriter 21:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with including |name=Republic of Indiana ? It provides for a cleaner info box. It did not change anything but the redundant "(1983: Doomsday)' line. --SouthWriter 02:34, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Map

 * Republic_of_Indiana_Counties.pngd we add a map to the information box?Perryz101 22:26, April 25, 2010 (UTC)Republic_Of_Indiana.png
 * Sure. Fill in any additional counties on your map that you think are justified. Post the map here and I'll post it to the infobox. I'll run any edit of the map by you if I see any discrepancies. --SouthWriter 15:12, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, heres the map, I have added some counties, mostly less-populated areas, Perryz101 21:43, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

To the left is what I came up with. There was a area between the Kokomo and Indianapolis destuction into which I added a corridor. Otherwise ther would be little communication between the west (Lafayette) and the East (Muncie). I'm feeling that the nuke that took out Ft. Wayne would have left the NE corner as undesirable as the area around Chicago in the NW. The SW corner is Terre Haute, which we decided had taken a hit.

However, I think the red counties near Indianapolis could be clamed as the corridor between east and west. We might also recolor the center (where my map is white, as red counties as well. Much of the area was destroyed and might have some residual radioactivity, but it could be at managed by the government (and thus be "part of" the nation. SouthWriter 22:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, GOPZACK has offerd Indiana in the Dixie Alliance, hes making a border map, I'm waiting for his map frist. Do you think Indiana would join?Perryz101 04:01, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally, I don't think the Dixie Alliance is "good" for the Republic of Indiana. I assume that southern Indiana, though, will be called the "state of Indiana" as part of the Commonwealth of Kentucky. That is what is happening with the Virginian Republic, anyway. SouthWriter 16:12, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the map (I hope) GOPZACK 04:44, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Dident work GOPZACK.Perryz101 06:08, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Try this, & you can just call me, Zack. --GOPZACK 15:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I made some changes to the Indiana map to reflect the difference between territory Kentucky claims and what they actually control. I based this map roughly off from the Kentucky map on its article. [EDIT] I'm not a great map maker so I apoligize for the crudity of the model. I also tried to work in South's map. Mitro 16:46, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think the map can work and Indiana can join the Dixie Alliance.Perryz101 23:17, April 27, 2010 (UTC)



South Bend
Did South Bend live? and If it did ,would it join its old state?Perryz101 19:18, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Canon says that South Bend was abandoned. Mitro 19:26, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * So an entire town vanish?, I have a problem with that, did they leave to local citys like Wabash or what?Perryz101 19:31, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is it hard to believe a town would be abandoned? There are plenty of precedents in our own history. Furthermore in this AH we have entire sections of the globe being cut of from trade and having their governments collapsing. South Bend is large enough that they are going to have incredible trouble providing its citizens with food, water, medical supplies, clothing, etc. If people can't get it in South Bend, they are going to leave to find it somewhere else. As for where that might be I have no idea. Mitro 19:34, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I understand them leaving, but the where too is a big part, and if the town was abandoned, it could be re-built and move in a population, It would take time, but It could be done.Perryz101 19:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess the next question is, why? Considering the great die off after Doomsday (for many of the same reasons stated above along with fallout, famine, disease, social disorder, etc.) would there be people even willing to rebuild a dilapitated ghost town when there are living towns that need people for other things? What benefit does anyone get for resettling South Bend? Also remember that for at least two decades there wouldn't be anyone around to fight fires. Large parts of the town could already have been burned to the ground. This makes any rebuilding expensive, so whatever benefit people get from rebuilding the town it has to be something that covers those costs. Mitro 20:07, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the area is still farms and South Bend could become a center for farmers in the area, and could bring back the city.Perryz101 20:11, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * But there are also farms in a lot of other areas that you are claiming under the Republic. Since oil is going to be scarce, I'm assuming that farming is going to be a lot more labor intensive since tractors and other types of farming equipment are going to be unavailable. As Lou said on Talk:Navajo Nation (1983: Doomsday), we can expect that every able-bodied citizen will be needed for things like farming, road-building, military duty, and every cottage industry that supports them. Does the Republic have the time, people and resources to reestablish farming in the area? Mitro 20:16, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Biodissel would take the place of fuel like in much of the Republic. It would take time to rebuild the area, but people would be drawn to the area for land and wealth, South Bend wouldent be as close as the size as its former self, but would be a center for the local farmers.Perryz101 20:23, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would the republic even have the resources to make that? Even then its only be a little more than 2 decades, would they even be producing the stuff enough that they could supply even the poorest farmer with it? IMO, I don't think so. Only the government and the very rich will have access to the fuel necessary to run vehicles. [EDIT] Also consider the fact that the Republic is going to be living by the skin of its teeth for a long time. How do you convince hungry farmers that they should give up some of their acres so people can use it for fuel. From that POV it is probably more efficient just to use human labor. Mitro 20:33, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can see where your coming from, but people would most likly go to the area around South Bend for land.They would farm by human labor.Perryz101 20:48, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Religion
Earlier in the week, I wrote a note here, but for some reason forgot to save it! Anyway, a couple of things:

First, I was wondering if you are basing the large Catholic population on your own community. The official word from Wikipedia has Catholics at around 20% -- and that would include the larger populations in cities where Catholics tend to gather. I think rural populations, and small cities, would tend to have fewer Catholics (but I may be wrong). That same article indicates that Protestants of all types outnumber Catholics about two to one, though the Catholics are the largest single religious group.

Second, is the Lafayette Baptist Church supposed to be the official name for the collective Baptists churches of the Republic, or is it supposed to be the First Babptist Church of Fayetteville (OTL - about 400 members)?

I suggest going to the Wikipedia article on Indiana. Keeping these pages close to reality takes research. I thought the paragraph on the number of national headquarters for religious groups was very interesting. Many had chosen smaller towns and thus were spared in TTL.SouthWriter 04:18, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well around the area in Northern Indiana is a very large population of Catholics, Prude, Notro dame and alot of Catholic schools populate the area. Around Evansville is a very large amount of Babtists, and around Southern Indiana. And around Laffayette, maybe in the more African American community would the Babtist church rise in numbers. The Mormons have also been trying to get into Indiana for awhile but havent been getting very good with results. Also The Laffayette Babtist Church was founded by the local Babtist churches in the area. But if you feel as if somthing dosent look right, please change it to your liking.Perryz101 05:01, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I checked in Wikipedia articles for Purdue (not a religious school) in West Lafayette. It would have survived. Notre Dame, though, would have been destroyed or greatly damaged, with the destruction of nearby South Bend. Evansville is in the far south and not part of your Republic. I don't think the Baptists would start up a new denomination, but would remain part of the existing State Convention of Baptists. If the state headquarters of that organization had been destroyed, they would have formed another group much like it. I don't think it would be called "Lafayette Baptist Church" for that would be too regionalized. Perhaps renaming it something like the "Indiana Baptist Convention" would work well.

As far as the Mormons are concerned, the story of this time line has all Mormons that can travel heading to Utah - which is now enlarged and officially a Mormon "nation." If you want conflict, you might look into a Muslim presense. The Islamic Society of North America is in Plainfield. In OTL, there are over 250,000 Muslims in Indiana. That figure would be lower, of course, in TTL due to the bombing of the main population centers to which most alternative religions would gather.

I don't want to just change your article. You need to do your research and make this proposal up to standards which will get it past the rest of the editors. Otherwise, it will remain just a proposal for the forseeable future. SouthWriter 05:25, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perry, I must say, you're getting pretty creative. It would be interesting to know where you come up with your ideas. However, if there is such religious intolerance among a minority of Christians as to lead to genocide, I don't think Indiana is going to grow into a respected nation able to join even the Dixie Alliance. That sort of unrest is not condusive to international relations at all. SouthWriter 20:54, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

These arnt real Christians. These groups are all over America, the KKK is still large in Indiana to this day, if this world could have religions that dident fight at all, this world would be great. This was about 10 years ago around the southern portion of The Republic Of Indiana. The Baptists have be getting better at getting along with the other religions. And I don't understand this "I would like to know were you get your ideas." thing, these problems are being taken care by Indiana. Indiana does not support any of the extreamists.Perryz101 22:21, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did not say "I would like to know" but instead "it would be interesting to know." But the point is that these accounts seem to be putting your present opinions into this alternate world. It would be interesting to know why you think that radical groups would rise up in such large numbers to descend upon those of different religious and ethnic groups. Are your own private ideas of the strife you see around you being projected onto the screen of the story in front of us? To me, such campaigns of violence based on prejudice and hate just could not happen on the scale that you think it could. I may be wrong, and there other editors that love this kind of stuff. SouthWriter 23:01, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

The world has alot of hate, and after somthing so bad, people will begin to fight. I don't want this in Indiana but..this is really how it is with the KKK.Perryz101 23:11, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I've also lowerd the deaths.Perryz101 23:33, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Canon
I would really like to get this Canon. I think it looks good and that its finished.Perryz101 02:14, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry I have not been able to work on the page much. Though you have worked hard, I'm afraid I cannot recommend this article to canonization just yet. Most of your sections are very sketchy, and the timeline is uncertain as to just what happened when. Things seem to have got together way too fast after the state had been split in half by nukes down the middle, along the top and along the bottom.


 * You were very innovative, though, in adding videos and a gallery. We don't see many of those in the articles. However, for my taste I would have rather seen more attempt to actually extrapolate from the "what if" of huge loss into a future almost 30 years into the present. You have demonstated a rudimentary knowledge of some trends, only to exaggerate them into major problems (the past influence of the KKK, for example).


 * I would suggest reading as many of the articles of 1983: Doomsday as you can to see how this time line works. Some are disasters, some are stories of hope, but all of them take time and come out far different than what they are today in our time line. SouthWriter 04:30, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Adoption
I'm from Indiana, could I maybe try and work on this?, I don't see much wrong with it OR Wasbash Union.--Sunkist- 12:23, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

I like it perry--Owen1983 10:09, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, really?--Sunkist- 12:18, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

even though I adopted it I am not from Indiana so it would be great having you edit it, -Sunkist-. --Owen1983 21:09, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * You know, Sunkist, that you probably broke some rule by offering to adopt your old creation under a new name, don't you? :-)


 * I see that Owen didn't fall for it, for he called you Perry. Aside from that, I like many of the changes that have been made since Owen adopted the article. It appears a little too ambitious - sort of like the "gamer" approach seen to the south with Yank's Virginia - but it may be workable. As has been pointed out by JackofSpades below ("Size"), the approach to take back the state must be gradual, since resources would be limited for quite some time. --SouthWriter 14:35, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * SouthWriter, I would for you to look alittle more deeply into the edit history of the page, SouthWriter I don't want to argue.--Sunkist- 20:43, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey, no arguing. I just remember going back and forth trying to improve the article with you as Perryz, and now it has taken a whole new direction. I like that it is now more viable. I only agree with Jack that it has to be slower. Personally, I think every state should seek to restore its original borders. But I am breaking that preference opening up a proposal for a south Georgia-based state that encompasses parts of Alabama. By the way, I did look back in the history - Owen adopted it, and then turned it back over to you. You then took the "Obsolete" banner off and put back the "Proposal" banner. The article is now essensially yours again, and I am looking forward to see how it works out. SouthWriter 22:28, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'm sorry for responding so harshly. Good luck on your new proposal.--Sunkist- 23:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I'm sorry for responding so harshly. Good luck on your new proposal.--Sunkist- 23:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Dan Quayle 1989?
Okay, guys, if you want to raise this out of obsolescence you're probably going to have to abandon such ideas as a return of Dan Quayle. However, if you do bring him back, he would not be in the Info Box.

It should be easy for a Hoosier to find out where Senator Quayle was in 1983. I understand that Quayle's advice to new members of the House and Senate was to keep families together, but I forget whether he lived mostly in Indiana or if his family moved to DC. Since he was quite young (33) upon entering national politics it seems likely that he commuted. I'm sure its in his autobiography, or one of his other books.

In OTL, of course, 1989 was the year that Quayle became vice president. Getting him home and safe when the bombs fell will be the problem in this TTL. His hometown in Indiana was Huntington, 23 miles southwest of Ft. Wayne (which I believe was a target. If he was home, he most likely survived and was in the thick of the refugees who descended upon Huntington (assuming a lower yield bomb). Huntington, though, being so close, may have been abandoned. --SouthWriter 15:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Alright thanks for the info.--Sunkist- 20:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Dan Burton
Isn't he the Senate Majority Leader not the President of the Senate? I don't meant to be a picker of nits but I thought the Vice President was also the President of the Senate, unless of course Indiana is run differently then the US government of old. --GOPZACK 22:54, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Your right Zack, thanks for pointing that out.--Sunkist- 22:58, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Size
My most sincere apologies, but looking at the map the Republic of Indiana looks way too large. For those who would have survived the initial blasts, the fallout that has drenched the state would be a massive problem. The radiation would kill off most of the plants and crops, leading to mass starvation and utter chaos. Combined with the shockwaves that would do massive damage to infrastructure outside the blast radius, I just don't see how the nation's territory can be so large. Unless the state is highly decentralized and the population is ridiculously low I don't see how such a large state could exist. JackofSpades 23:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Go look at the size of the Texas survior communities.--Sunkist- 23:58, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Also, if you look, all the major citys are not even close, all in which were city-states, and join together [Edit] I've posted a image of the old city states.Also if you look at the nuked areas, ALL in-which are NML districts of the Republic Of Indiana.--Sunkist- 00:01, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am just giving my opinion on the situation in an attempt to help you with the article. I may mistakes, I'm just trying to raise questions that concern me. The only Texan survivor state that is larger than Indiana appears to be West Texas, which (based on the FEMA map) has had only one impact in its borders. Imediate destruction and fallout there would be substationally lesser than the rest of the state. On the other hand, Indiana has at least six major impacts in its heartland. Transportation between the city-states would be heavily impeded and it looks like several of them would have suffered heavy destruction. JackofSpades 00:28, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well if you look at Indiana's map, and also TONS of people don't go by the FEMA maps, Fort Knox is the capital of Kentucky is a example, the only places attacked are, Indianapolis, by two nukes, one in Brazil, one Gary, and one on the Airbase by Peru. And if you look at the Republic Of West Texas page, you will see a unified East and West, and compare that to the entire state of Indiana, now this nation is just in Northern Indiana, southern Indiana is controled by Kentucky. This map shows The Republic Indiana over the last 15 years.--Sunkist- 00:39, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * With a few exceptions, most targets on the FEMA maps are considered canon. Despite the map on the West Texas page, Texan unification has not yet happened. The state still remains as shattered as before. The Indiana page seems to indicate at least five cities destroyed during doomsday. JackofSpades 00:50, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Sunkist is right the FEMA maps are guides and are not set in stone. All so some of the territory might just be claimed and not occupied by anyone, or by very few. --GOPZACK 01:13, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with GOPZACK. Indiana did just pop up and take this land over night, it took years.--Sunkist- 01:18, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Alright then. I just wanted to clarify some issues. I still think that the republic should have a low population and be decentralized though. The area is made up of a multitude of towns that are fairly independent in reality. After a brief period of near unlimited control over their own territory, the mayors aren't going to want to give up that much power. JackofSpades 01:55, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

The mayors knew tha if they stay independent things will fall apart, and the Mayors also became canidates to become part of the Senate/Reps, and most of them did.--Sunkist- 02:05, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looking from the outside in, it is easy to see the rational decision but it is very likely that some of these public figures will not see the bigger picture. Many of these officials will likely have goals that are completely orthogonal to the needs of their people. They would rationalize the situation in an attempt to avoid a loss of authority and prestige. I'm not saying your government won't work, I am just saying that these cities would prefer a decentralized, looser government than a strict model. Communications would likely be strained, so it might even be more pragmatic to give individual mayors/governors/whatever more power. I am thinking something between modern day US and the Articles of the Confederacy. Population would be low due to the American diaspora, starvation, the chaos and having a lower population pre-1983.


 * As a side note, it might be cool (both for realism and interesting flavor/events) if radiation remained a significant issue. Even though impacts are lesser than I thought, Hoosiers (?) would likely be exposed to more fallout than say Superior citizens or Alaskans. It might make for an interesting relationship with Toledo as Post-Doomsday they actually have fairly good medical facilities. Perhaps they two states could trade medical supplies for XYZ. JackofSpades 02:21, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate you raising your concerns Jack, we need more people like you who aren't afraid to question things with boldness and seek clarification. GOPZACK 02:04, August 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the compliment, I do appreciate it. JackofSpades 02:21, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking about the Mayor and other major officals would take hold, BUT If you think about the armorys in the cities, which have large based National Guard units would keep this from happening. In my plan was to have the national guard be loyal to it state and not allow it to become seperated. Also the communications, I also got a plan for that, if you ever drive on the road and see a semi-truck with, "WABASH NATIONAL" its based in Lafayett, which make the trucks and also work on them and the radios, and at first they were planning to open its doors in 1985, constructing plants and what not. Lafayette contacts the company, to help repair the Citizens Band radio, which then the national guard begins to send out in trucks and meeting other National Guard on the way, soon setting up a communication link.--Sunkist- 23:40, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

The Power of the National Guard
You have indicated that the governor and the whole government were destroyed on Doomsday. And then you introduce the National Guard as the security forces that take charge and allow the new government to finally come into being. I've noted that even in states that lose their sitting government, the National Guard seems to be the stand in armed forces. The problem is, they are under the authority of the Governor and the Adjutant General. The local command structure of the National Guard, and the State Defence Forces, if available, probably would not act "on its own," but might chose to work at the command of the highest local official available (even the mayor, if no regional state or federal official is available).SouthWriter 02:26, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Each unit has a commander, in which would take control, and try and meet up with higher command, which would of been in Lafayette or Fort Wayne, also if you think about Indiana's motto, "Crossroads of America." Indiana has a very big road system, which isent a hard drive from Lafayette to Terre Haute etc., and in this case the Mayors woulden't have a time span to create a government.--Sunkist- 02:37, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

And to Cannon, Indiana's Air National Guard wasen't hit.--Sunkist- 02:39, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Of course each unit has a commander. But the guard - both the National Guard, and the State Defense forces, work under a civilian command structure -- the governor and other elected officials to be exact. It cannot be expected for miltiary personnel to just "take charge" of a government in the United States. It may happen in certain cases, but not in an organized way between unitis. However, with is a contingency plan in place, certain things would immediately get done by prearrangment. A national emergency, like doomsday, would bring units together locally to control panic, etc., but the actual governing of the people will most certainly be by "civilians." A commanding officer who "declares martial law" on his own authority is tantamont to a military coup.

I'm not saying the National Guardmen would not "go rogue" and establish regional city-states, but I am quite sure that they would not be the vehicles used to bring the whole state together. Would the highest ranking commander automatically become the first governor (or "president")? When the mayors finally get together, who is to decide which one will be "in charge" ? And will the military junta that has come together in that particular area go along with this plan?

I just want this to be viable, so you can graduate it sooner, Sunkist. Work with us on this. SouthWriter 02:56, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

I was reading the earlier post which sunkist stated that the government was destroyed here is my problem traditionally the Head of state be that figurehead ot president is the commander of the armed forces but this article states that the government was destroyed with no CiG the army would go rogue --Owen1983 13:31, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Philip Sharp
Sunkist, Sharp was a US representative serving in Washington, DC in September of 1983, as was Senator Dan Quayle. As far as I can tell, Congress is almost always in session during the last week of September. You are going to have to come up with some local politicians who were in charge of major cities in order to man your government in 1984, or whenever you chose to bring this government together.

Also, you throw Sharp into the fray, commanding the National Guard, before you introduce him in the following paragraph. I separated the paragraph (a formatting problem) but have yet to rework that new section to be more readable. I have no problem cleaning up spelling and grammar, but I will never change anything substansive without first asking. Could you go over that paragraph about the guardsman establishing order - read it out loud and see if you wrote what you were trying to say. I had a little trouble following what you wrote. SouthWriter 04:59, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

it was stated early on in the 1983 timelone that evacuation of congress was not possible so its likely Philip sharp would have been killed when Washington was hit--Owen1983 13:35, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, Owen. Use a little spacing, okay?


 * Yes, it is assumed that most of Congress did not make it out. I am not sure how good an assumption that is, given they were not literally "in session" at the time. However, since they were scattered in their homes (hotels, condos, or wherever they lived while in Washington) on Sunday night, they would have been "on their own" along with the rest of the population. Most of those that escaped would have made it into the countryside of Maryland, Virginia, and West Virgina (as far as you can drive in an hour on back roads (or getting a headstart on the rest of the population on the larger highways). SouthWriter 14:09, August 25, 2010 (UTC)




 * [PLEASE use the [Enter] key at least once before responding!]




 * another problem I found is that government officials in congress would be evacuated because if the senate is dead including the president congress would be the defacto US government --Owen1983 22:25, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately for congress, it is a lot easier to evacuate the President and Vice President (separately) than it is to evacuate senators and representatives on such short notice. You have a point, though, about the government continuing without the president -- an order of succession is in place to fill the spot. This time line saved the presidency, though, and let the Congress fend for themselves. I figure some of them escaped, but as to who is anybody's guess. SouthWriter 01:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

To Kentucky's Cannon, Baron Hill is still alive, I'm putting him going with Baron back to Indiana.--Sunkist- 22:35, August 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * A case in point to the remark above. Baron Hill was probably in or around Washington at Doomsday. In order to have a plausible story, you would have him escape. That would probably mean being in the front of the line with a full tank of gasoline, and an older car that would run without its electronics. Large order, but it would get him out of town and on the way back to Indiana. Getting him to Lafayette, on the other hand, will take some doing. SouthWriter 01:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to bother you again, but who is this "Cannon" fellow? SouthWriter 01:32, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think this "Cannon" is Baron Hill, a young state rep from Seymour. So that leads to my next question - and possible answer. (I aim to please).
 * How did Sharp get back to Indiana? And you need to clarify that Hill would one day become a senator in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. In 1984 Baron Hill was a young man of 26, serving in Indianapolis (which was destroyed) or maybe home in Seymour for the weekend. If he was home, which is likely, you have to get him and Sharp together in the meantime. Sharp had to have called Hill just before he ran out the door to escape the Washington area. Weeks later they could have met in Seymour (assuming Sharp made it through the chaotic gangs of West Virginia and eastern Kentucky (see Yank's VR) . That in itself would be a thrilling paragraph. Is it feasable that Hill knew the congressman from another district? SouthWriter 02:17, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Philip Sharp and Baron Hill were both Reps at the time.--Sunkist- 10:35, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, nevermind, forget I said that.--Sunkist- 10:36, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was so looking forward to the adventure of getting Sharp back to Indiana! I think a US congressman making it home would make a good leader.  His knowledge of what is going on in the five hundred miles in between would be invaluable.  Contacts he makes in Kentucky in those weeks as the Fort Knox government gets started would be crucial.  You and Zack may be able to tweek his article to acknowledge some contact even early on. SouthWriter 16:28, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

VIABLE
I did some research and getting Phil Sharp back into Indiana would be viable becuse Indiana was a republican state since the 1930s --Owen1983 17:30, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Owen. But the fact that the man is a Democrat, and the ability to escape being vaporized to face unruly gangs in two states on the way home, have nothing to do with Indiana's overall political makeup. An idea of where Sharp was living among the suburbs of Washington DC would be a good piece of information. SouthWriter 18:27, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Phill Sharp
Phil Sharp would have been in Washington as congress was in session up to the 16rh of November of 1983 --Owen1983 01:15, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you read other posts, Owen, you would realize that that has been acknowledged. However, it is also been noted that DD was on Sunday, and Congress was not meeting that day.  The congressman were in their homes in and around Washington at the time.  Knowing that, Sunkist put together a scenario to get him back to Indiana.  The following section contains my update of that scenario for due consideration.  I apologize ahead of time for making changes where I felt warranted.  I therefore, post it here rather than doing a radical rewrite of the affected paragraphs.

then we could make an assumption that most members with transport headed to tho country ie Virginia and Maryland but its safe to say that Washington had Communal fallout shelters for those who couldn't leave --Owen1983 14:55, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Doomsday
Three nuclear blasts over Indianapolis completely destroyed the city. No known members of the government of Indiana survived. Grissom Joint Air Reserve Base was destroyed with Newport Chemical Plant, all in which were near the small cities of Peru and Brazil. Small villages began to be overrun with refugees, many who were barely alive. Gary and Fort Wayne were also attacked, further decreasing Indiana's already devastated population.

Philip Sharp's Escape
Like most Sundays while Congress was in session, politicians of all stripes were either at home or visiting friends locally on September 25, 1983. Such had been the case with Indiana's Philip Sharp, recently elected to the newly formed 2nd district. He had been elected to the former 10th district, but the 1980 census had changed that. A Democrat, he had survived the sea change that had propelled Ronald Reagan to office. The midterm elections of 1982, with the new districts, had assured him a job for at least the next two years. That is, until the missiles were launched toward the Washington, DC, area!

Sharp had been in Hagersdstown, Maryland, that evening, and had received a call from a panicked aid who lived near the capital. Moments later, the hotels lights had gone out and everyone had begun to scream and wail at the news that the missiles had been fired. He wasted no time. Grabbing his overnight bag, he headed to his personal vehicle. He said a quick prayer of thanks that it had not been deep in a parking garage. Not realizing the EMP had been what had knocked out the power, he was unaware of the advantage that his vintage 1968 Mustang carried. His family had kidded him when he had bought it, But its ignition had no electronics - just a straight switch. The eight track tape player, though, was hopeless. But it was not music he needed, but news. That, too, was not to be, for the radio's transistors had fused to the circuit board.

Within the hour, though, he had made his way to the Greenbrier Resort, hoping to find many of his colleagues there as had been set down in the emergency procedures manual. A handful of junior members of both houses had made it, as had the vice president and the leaders and whips of both parties. It looked like the facilities might last for several months with no problem. Vice president Bush and the other leadership had constant contact with President Reagan via a buried fiber optics network that had been impervious to the EMPs. Near the end of April, 1984, it had become obvious to most at Greenbrier and at the Mt. Weather bunker (where President Reagan and his top adviser James Baker were stationed) that the nation could not be run from underground hideouts. The government, it had been decided, would be moving to Australia! Sharp and some of the other younger congressman were aghast, and when offered a spot on the waiting plane, refused, choosing instead to make their way back to their home states.

The early years
After Doomsday, Sharp would play a major part in Indiana state politics. With the bombings of major cities and air bases in the center of the state, Indiana had become literally divided down the middle.

However, the first politician to shine was Mayor Sheila Klinker of Lafayette. She was able to keep the order by taking command of the city's National Guard units as the default commander in chief until the capital could be contacted. Emergency signals had been sent to nearby cities until the units from Richmond and the Fort Wayne area joined those of Lafayette. Officials of the Federal Communications Commission stationed in the city were able to find a sub-contractor to repair citizen band radios (the founder's of Wabash National Electronics having only just been licensed earlier in the year). By spring of 1984, in fact, Colonial Frank Marcus, of Fort Wayne, had taken command of the units throughout the northern parts of the state. Using the CB radios a communication network was in place by July.

That very month, the residents of Terre Haute, thought destroyed in a nuclear blast, made contact with Lafayette. The explosion that had been seen from afar had been at the Newport Chemical Depot, set afire by the thermal blast of a low yield nuclear detonation above a military base about ten miles north of Terre Haute. As Terre Haute was filling up with refugees from harder hit cities, volunteers had worked for weeks to contain the chemical fires. Roads out of town had been destroyed, but communications had finally been established. By October of 1984 communication had been restored in Crowns Point and in many rural villages that were hosting refugees from South Bend.

On May 9, 1985 representatives of every know surviving city and town, having talked previously via radio, had made their way to Lafayette where a modified Indiana state constitution was ratified and signed. The representatives, each having been elected by their respective cities, had also polled their constituency concerning a new governor (to be called President in the newly formed independent republic). Lafayette mayor Sheila Klinker had been the favorite of the majority due to her part in organizing the state's National Guard units. It was agreed that her time served so far would count towards her four year term and new elections were scheduled for 1988. During her time as president, the republic got off to a distinctly conservative direction with the Republican party being predominant in most state offices.

Philip Sharp's Return
The trip had not been easy, even though the US government had provided fuel efficient vehicles with large gasoline tanks and refurbished electronics. There was absolutely no guarantee that there would be any gasoline when and if the cars ran out of fuel. The maps had been marked as best as the vice president's staff could figure based on the flyovers that their small military helicopters had been able to determine. The eastern states were reachable, with luck, but the past the Mississippi was probably a pipe dream. Sharp was only two states away, less than five hundred miles to his home town. Driving nonstop, for almost twenty hours over back roads with abandoned cars every few miles, Sharp made it to Shelbyville, Indiana, which had become a regional capital. The local authorities, supported by local units of the Indiana's National Guard, apprehended him and held him for questioning. He gladly accepted their offer for shelter and a meal in a local jail.

Once he had established who he was, he began to inquire as to who was in charge. He had hoped that the capital, or at least some of the government there, had survived. But the news that the mayor of Lafayette had become the de facto leader surprised him. In the weeks following that, he began a tour of the surviving towns and villages of the state he had been sent to represent eight years previously. He had not "been home" for long since leaving over twenty years earlier to finish his schooling at Georgetown University and Oxford. He hoped, though, that he could put his doctoral work, and years of service in Washington, to work in what was now like one of the struggling nations of postwar Europe which he had visited in the seventies. As he saw the new republic taking shape, he was not satisfied with the direction into which the Klinker administration was leading it, so, in 1987 Sharp ran for the chance to be its second president. His tour of the republic paid off and he won the election. Klinker seemed to be relieved at the results.

Thanks SouthWriter, I don't mind you editing the page, feel free to whenever.--Sunkist- 02:29, August 27, 2010 (UTC)