Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Stage 3 - huge factories near cities, massive urbanization, mass use of railways, steam powered ships common, electricial experimentation

 * Japan
 * Naples
 * Austria
 * Hungarian puppets/independent colonies/colonies/vassals
 * Napolitan puppets/colonies/independent colonies/vassals
 * Vietnamese puppets/colonies/vassals
 * French puppets/independent colonies/colonies/vassals
 * Chinese puppets/colonies/vassals
 * Labrador
 * Bharat
 * Bharati puppets/colonies/vassals
 * Japanese puppets/colonies/vassals/independent colonies
 * USA
 * Hanthawaddy
 * Hanthawaddian colnies/vassals/independent colonies/puppets
 * Manoa
 * Brunei
 * Afghanistan

Stage 4 - airplanes and cars, decrease in the factories near cities, more urbanization but focused on towns, electricity used in cities

 * Russia
 * Hungary
 * Egypt
 * Finland
 * Finnish colonies/independent colonies
 * Northern and littoranean China
 * Caliphate
 * United Principalities
 * Greece
 * Persia
 * Russian puppets/colonies/indeoendent colonies/vassals
 * Swedish former colonies

Discussion
I have one complaint: according to the list of what you need to do to advance, to get to stage 3 you need to open a rail link. However, for Naples, a nation with large amounts of its territory in islands, and with a significant portion in Africa, and the land being primarily a peninsula, it makes more sense for them to invest in steamships prior to investing in steam trains. So making the first functioning steamships should count as well as making the first rail link. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:30, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Nippon is in a similar situation due to all the islands, but I'm just going to do both but with more focus on steamships than trains. Of course I'll do some train lines but steamships are more relevant for Nippon, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:11, February 14, 2012 (UTC).

I see your point. For Nippon and Naples ONLY, I accept a sea route operated by steam-powered ships.Scandinator (talk) 08:39, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

What about electricity? we have to assume that something like the voltaic pile eventually was discovered?i mean, already is 1818 and nothing about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:58, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Stability
2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Due to the vote, in which every voting player agreed, this system will now be used for all nations (however, some changes have been proposed based upon industrialization) LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:54, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm Results and Moderator Revolts
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/(z+y))*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory.

For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Stability vote
Since the table is still not up, though its been promised for months, and since whenever Scandinator does promise a deadline, he partially fills the table up and then abandons it for weeks on end to become outdated, I have come to the conclusion he will never get it done, and thus the stability system will never work. Since whenever I attempt to simply bring this up he always makes excuse after excuse and delays for month after month, I am hearby just going to bring forward the motion to a vote to go back to the old system, which we could find out own stability and did not require all algorithms to wait for one player to come up with a number which we have no way to verify whether it is true or not. Voting will end this time tomorrow. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:33, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Return to the Old Stability Curve for the reasons above

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 22:37, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * RandomWriterGuy 22:40, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Galaguerra1 22:52, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * --Yank 23:43, April 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zagoria 03:33, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * if add bonus for pop. and industry-Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Scand's procrastination is absolutely disgusting. You shouldn't make promises you can't keep. --Yank 23:47, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Please note that I sympathize with Scandinator being too busy to work on the table. However, if you are too busy for months, too busy for the entire forseeable future, then you are too busy for the job. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:19, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

You sicken me! CrimsonAssassin 16:01, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The Thing is that Population and industrialisation, one of the greatest factors in warat this point in history, will not be taken into account,so add some sort of bonus in the algorithm(like a populaiton ratio bonus(10:1 ratio, nation with more gets 10 point bonus), and some sort of industry bonus, Scan is taking too long, and return to the old table or system would be easier. -Lx (leave me a message) 16:27, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

The old stability system factored in population (the equation used the years of the government's existance and the digits in the population as variables). For the industrialization thing, if you can think of a bonus, you can propose it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, I forgot about eh multiplication that we got rid of. For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus-Lx (leave me a message) 01:39, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0)-Lx (leave me a message) 01:44, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, 24 hours have passed, and everyone is either in agreement or hasn't voted. Therefore, I hearby declare the new system null and void and a return to the stability curve hearby in effect. Lx, you should make a new section for "Industrialization Stability/Algorithm bonus" where we can discuss new ideas for that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:48, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have probably not heard from Scan for weeks. And he is the only person who is good for the stability. WHERE HAS HE GONE?! RandomWriterGuy 04:12, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea, Lx.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:36, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, calm down. He is in Orlando having a holiday (which he kinda deserves). You would know that if you read posts, lol. :P Imperium Guy 12:07, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Calm down?! Forget that! Freak the hell out.THIS IS A DISASTER! THE ENTIRE WIKI MIGHT SHUT DOWN!!!!!
 * You also don't need to react like those SOPA and PIPA bills were about to pass.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * If there was a like button for the above comment (by Collie), I would have pressed it. XD [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 21:29, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

People, keep calm and carry on. CrimsonAssassin 22:31, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

You forgot the crown Crim. It would be "[crown] keep calm and carry on. :P Imperium Guy 22:35, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Nice no find this at the end of my holiday... Good to see you spent my 48 hours flying or in transit doing something useful. I was planning to update the table now that I am back in Sydney with my laptop but seeing as it is crossed out... Scandinator (talk) 23:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, we just wanted to make it clear that it was not being used. If we we put it in really small print instead, would it make you feel better? CrimsonAssassin 02:20, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization bonus for war
For industry, perhaps we could have the stage of industrialization, multiplied by the poplation ratio to get a bonus, or simply the industrial stage(or difference between industrial stages)Squared as a bonus

or if they are equal, the industrial stage squared+the difference in years worked on industry(railways, telegraph systems, factories, industrial tech, etc...) in the past 10 between the warring nations(up to a 5 point bonus), making the maximum industrial bonus 21(4*4+5), and the lowest right now is 9(3*3+0), or we could just use the difference for all of the ones(not only if there is a -Lx (leave me a message) 14:14, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Thoughts? I guess I can make this a vote.

Discussion
I think that this only may be used by wars among player nations.A example of what might happen is if hypothetically, Russia, after updating their industry or similars for five consecutive years tries to invade the southern Shwaili state.given that the AI didn 't post, we will have to put their number of updates a 0. their bonus scores then become like this: SSS: (1x1+0)/R: (3x3+5).- SS: 1/R:14. This, if done correctly, can give a big advantage over industrially weaker states, specially if they are AI.somebody remembers when we used larger numbers for stability, the player nations came to have larger stability numbers than what could ever be acheived by a AI, and then we procceeded to invade such nations (Mameluks, Ottomans, Inca, Hafsids, maybe others). to avoid this to happen again, i think that we should use this bonus for wars among player nations, and not AI-plaayer nations, as i said before.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:50, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Or we can use a different system for the AI, and have their color be the Industry, but remember, in history, the European States dominated because of their Industrial Power, and the fact that the industrial armies of The Brittish and the french went up against the industrialy and technologicaly weaker nodal/nomadic states.

Franco-Vietnamese War 1866
France
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 47 (France (L), Malouinas (MV), Haiti (MV), Burgundy (MV), Nouvelle-France (MV), Venice (MVW), Sicily (SVW), Russia (M), South Africa (MV), Novorossiya (MV), Kazakhztan (MV), Poland (MV), Újfundlandi (MV), Italy (MV), Neue Brandenburg (M), Nippon (M), Finland (M), Persia (M), Yemen (MV))
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -4
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Puppet States: -4
 * Chance: 824/20*pi =129.43
 * Editcount = 824
 * Time:1*5*4 =20
 * Stability: 1.3^1.25/1.25^1.3*2.5*8=21 (rounded)
 * Total: 76

Vietnam

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 33 (Vietnam (L), Burma (MV), Kenia (MV), Taiwan (MV), Dravidia (M), Brunei (M), Newfoundlandian rump state [Ungava] (M), Uruguay (S), Sweden (M), Baltic Alliance (MV), Hanover (MV), Fjordlaand (M), Istoias (S)
 * Puppet States: -2
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -3
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Chance: 8057/8*pi=3,163.9765
 * Editcount = 8057
 * Time:4*2 = 8
 * Stability: 8.0^1.25/1.25^8.0*2.5*8=45
 * Total: 93

Result
Vietnam is most likely to be the victor.

Discussion
I know both nations have vassals and allies and whatnot, but none have posted that they are entering thus far from what I can see, so add them yourselves. (note, if you are in alliance with a player nation, even dynastic union, that player needs to post for it to be recognized). LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Old Russian colonies support france because they have to. Russians dont realy like it though, but the fracturing party after Mehseryakov's demise will not be good to Charles-Louis in the end.

Yank, I'm not planning keeping any territory I manage to conquest. Except may be Furanchesou, if you agree. --Galaguerra1 02:19, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

What year did the Russian and French legislatures merge? Because that's the biggest change in government I can think of recently. I need that for stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

1853 --Galaguerra1 02:39, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

OK, now they are complete unless more people join. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:42, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg enters the war on the French side... Sorry for being a little late...Zagoria 02:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Only 12 point difference. Could be tight... LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I just have 4 puppets, Nouvelle-France, Haiti, Újfundlandi and Malouinas, while Italy and Burgundy are vassals, unless you're counting Sicily and Venice, but they're administrated by Lurker. Also the provisional govenrment of Ungava should probably be on the vietnamese side.--Galaguerra1 02:51, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dayak Federation is supporting Vietnam--Sawdog88

The color made me think Adal was a puppet. Anyways, what is Ungava? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:00, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

The French took control of all newfoundland up to Saglek Bay. Ungava is all of Newfoundland which was not taken.It will be referred like this on the future, because after the war, The Newfoundlandians on the main island will form a government of their own, and will not recognize the Newfoundland Ungavan state, and they won't recognize the island state neither.think of Taiwan/China.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wait... South Africa? this means that the Russian colony there is independent now?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ya...they can do whatever but diplomacy is handeled by Russia. I planned to do this regardless of France, its about this time in history. -Lx (leave me a message) 16:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I added Nippon, Persia and Finland, are their vassals (if any) supporting me? I suposed Finland and Persia are supporting me as int he last turns, please confirm. --Galaguerra1 16:41, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I want to set out my territorial claims ahead of time. Yank 03:35, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I will give France Furansuchou, especially if the current Franco-Russian regime is taken down.
 * 2) I want Haiti, or just a portion of it.
 * 3) I want a portion of Russia's Novorossiya colony.

This wasn't supose to anyone to take any territory, in fact, I wasn't even planning to use algorithms until you create one. The Franco-russian union will fall, but I don't know what to say about the rest. I would like to have Furanchesou, but, if I must give you a part of Haiti, I prefer it the way it is. If you want territory, you can take it over, is your right, you made an algorithm, but you can't demand any territory from Russia. --Galaguerra1 03:59, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon's vassals & puppets I don't think would get involved as they are only really leaning towards this side because Nippon is forcing them. The Commonwealth won't be participating in the war on either side too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:16, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I will agree to witdraw all territorial claims, and the world returns to satus quo ante bellum. I still insist that the Franco-Russian-Italian union be dissolved, at which time I will sell Furansuchou to the post-Imperialist Frech regime.

Yank 23:40, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I already agreed with Galaguerra that the Italian portion, at least, would become free very soon after the war (this basically means all pre-war European Neapolitan territory, plus Tunisia and Pahang). RandomWriterGuy can keep Vicia though, I never really did anything with that land and I was planning on making them independent but a grey nation not controlled anyways. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:49, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Can I annex the traditionally english area of Calais? Scandinator (talk) 08:57, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer you to not. Besides, that city hasn't been english in centuries. --Galaguerra1 16:54, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Is it possible that the war would end in a stalemate instead? RandomWriterGuy 19:19, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

No. The entire French side is on the verge of collapsing into revolutions and smaller states, there's no way they could win, especially since with all the people withdrawing the algorithm difference will become huge. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:32, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

But Persia can keep control of Vicia, since I never really had anything to do with it. You can say the Incan remnant of the population decided they liked the Persians better than the Neapolitans. They'll still be heavily Catholic though. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:35, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe in the middle of the chaos the Incans deside they want their Independence back.-Tim

I can keep the Neapolitan South American colony, but the recent Vietnamese colony I took will be handed back to Vietnam. RandomWriterGuy 22:06, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I changed the result due to what is going on. RandomWriterGuy 22:06, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

France
We need to unite our forces to defeat this warmonger! Who's with me?

Yank 00:29, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia is with you. Istoias and Ricasolia are in conflict over which side to join. Naples would help Vietnam, but France already defeated them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:57, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

When's Scandinator coming back? He's kind of the Great Britain in my napoleonic plan. Also internal problem in the mesheryakovist faction will help you defeating me. Malouians will turn against France, and massive protest will be held. I hope you'll fegure out a plan to defeat France and take it to that outbreak point. --Galaguerra1 01:37, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Please note that my current Shogun is a bit of a tyrant, he's going to be on the French side and try carving out an even larger Nipponese empire by attacking Sweden in the South Pacific, Vietnam's Taiwan & New Lithuanian vassals (as well as blockading the straights of Malacca to stop Vietnamese aid reaching Europe), and Brunei too. However eventually Shogun Iemochi will be overthrown in a coup by the pro-emperor politicians and clans. There will then be a civil war very similar to OTL Boshin War, and the pro-emperor people will set up a new provincial government to rule Nippon until the civil war is over. The Tokugawa forces will be forced into retreat to Kamochatoka, where they will stay for a while, supplied by their Russian allies; but will fall when the Russians stop supplying them. Don't worry all the land I conquer in these next few years will be returned VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:26, April 13, 2012 (UTC).

Same here, my maharaja is tired of the mahajhapanas doing the decision making and he will also be toppled in a coup and be replaced by his son, although there won't be much of a civil war after that though 'cause he's going to have much of a following. :P Imperium Guy 13:33, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Why are you trying to attack France? RandomWriterGuy 17:14, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Because they are invading all sorts of nations? And we have talked about this sort of thing for months? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:12, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Scramble for Africa
Songonese scientists are coming in with breakthroughs with cinchona bark (native to OTL Ecuador) as treatment for malaria. As in OTL, this will be one of the main factors to kickstart the exploration and conquest of the interior of Africa. The technology shall become widespread and ready for use throughout the Americas in 1871. The technology is free to use by any European power or colony in 1875, and it is ready to use anywhere else by 1880. Thus, expansion in tropical or marshy areas will be multiplied by 1.5 until otherwise decided.

However, keep in mind that in order for the 1.5 multiplier to apply, you cannot create major settlements except along the coast (i.e. Mozambique, Senegal, etc.) —this is known as indirect rule, for the purposes of our game. This keeps the culture of the interior intact. If you wish to create settlements in the interior (i.e. South Africa), the 1.5 can not apply —this is called direct rule. You cannot mix and match.

More information: if your technological level does not include steamships, then you cannot benefit from the 1.5 multiplier. Also, you are advised to stay along major bodies of water. There is a reason why areas with major rivers were the most sought after in OTL. Do your research!

Make decisions wisely and let the Scramble Begin! Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:06, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have been waiting for this moment for a long time...-Lx (leave me a message) 03:08, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Why does Europe get a 6 year bonus? In this timeline, many Asian nations are advanced and industrialized, and have colonies in the Americas as well- In fact, the largest American colonial Empire is the Chinese one. Why then should Europe get the advantage? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:34, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

^ This CrimsonAssassin 13:52, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say any nation can get the bonus in 1875, since the European only seems to be either biased or simply tied into our timeline. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:34, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

The vote went through, any nation that has a colonial empire can get the bonus next turn. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:03, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

The Map Change!
I saw that Scan changed the map because he said that no Spanish territory takeover until MofS was back. Is that fair? I understand that he said it was not good how we were taking Spain's territory without the playing being here, but I had an algorithim and I only took over his colony. Imperium Guy 18:08, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Didn't Scandinator read the last discussion? There is no rule against attacking players who are not gone. You can say it is courteous not to, but there is no rule stopping it. Plus, Scandinator isn't even a mapmaker. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:36, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless if MofS was here or not, he would of still lost the algorithm. I agree with Imp, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:07, April 14, 2012 (UTC).

Ricasolia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: 12 (Ricasolia (L), Isolque (M), Istoias (M), Sicily (SV), Venice (SV))
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States: -0
 * Chance: 3673/48*pi =240.397288


 * Editcount = 3673
 * Time:1*6*4*2=48
 * Stability: 7.2^1.25/1.25^7.2*2.5*7=41
 * Total: 79

Persia

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4 (Persia (L), Yemen (MV))
 * Puppet States: -1
 * Motive: 3
 * Expansion: -1
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 4051/36*pi=353.51


 * Editcount =4051
 * Time:1*6*2*3=36
 * Stability: 3.0^1.25/1.25^3.0*2.5*8=40


 * Total: 47

Result
Ricasolia crushes Persia.

Discussion
Wow, the Persians get crushed because all they do is try and gobble up more territory and never have anything actually go on in their nation. That and RandomWriterGuy apparently misses 72 days worth of the gameplay involving Haiti because of all the copy-pasta. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:04, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I canceled this war already. RandomWriterGuy 17:06, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Stop cancelling wars just because you realize that you are going to lose them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:29, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

So, the war stays cancelled or we carry on with it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:27, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I already retconned all of my posts, but how about this: next time something like this happens, the war won't be retconned unless all players involved (AKA anyone who responded) agree. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:08, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam
Total: 93 (nice!!)
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Vietnam (L), Kenia (MV), Bharat (M), Bihar (MV), Orissa (MV), Jaffna (MV), Nippon (M): 18
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -3
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Chance: 9
 * Edits: 8,142
 * Time: 04:20 = 8
 * (8142/8)*pi = 3197.355 9 23
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: 8.0^1.25/1.25^8.0*2.5*8=45

South Swahili
Total: 34 + Stablity
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4 South Swahili (L)
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Puppet States: 0
 * Chance: 5 (random.org)
 * Participation: 10
 * Stability: TBD

Result
Definate Vietnamese Victory.

Discussion
I don't know how to complete the algorythm. Math was never my strong suit.

Yank 18:49, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oh my, this war has been going on for ages. I'll try to do it for you! :D Imperium Guy 19:56, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, Bharat is helping. :D Imperium Guy 19:59, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Nippon will send military aid to, as an apology for the whole Shogun Iemochi stuff, VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:29, April 27, 2012 (UTC).

Scamble for Africa Vote
I see no reason why Europe should be allowed to start 5 years early, as many East Asian nations, such as China and Vietnam, have huge colonial empires as well. Thus, I move to allow all nations to begin using the modifier in 1875. Voting will last 24 hours. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:39, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

For

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * Maybe base the bonus off your industrialization stage? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:56, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Galaguerra1 23:00, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 09:05, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 13:49, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yank 15:57, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:12, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * RandomWriterGuy 05:00, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Against

 * Scandinator (talk) 23:28, April 18, 2012 (UTC) Yes but no Asian nation has had a large colony in Africa and held it for a long time. Contrast that with the Northern African colonies, New Songhai, the South African colonies. I'm saying at most Vietnam will also be included but not Nippon, China, Bharat, Persia and Korea; nations which have not ever expressed interest in Africa and have been more focused on the Americas till now. Maybe they can get a South/North America bonus? NOTE: Sweden has no interest in Africa at this point in time so this comment is on a neutral base.

Discussion
Lol I don't even have any colonies... :) PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:33, April 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * You still have one. a 1 px colony in Australia that you couldn't give to Sweden.this was because if i gave it, he would stay with 8 colonies--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:45, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam has a large colony in Africa and their vassal is quite powerful as well!! :P Imperium Guy 09:05, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Notice its the players with EUROPEAN nations opposing changing this? And so what if you haven't had a colony in Africa for a long time? You could say that every time someone sets up a new colony somewhere different. Giving the bonus to just European nations is just biased; I mean are you saying that one of the small German states or Balkan nations has more of an advantage/right than China, Vietnam, Nippon or Bharat in colonizing Africa? The bonus should be based on industrialization or strength of nation: after all not every European country in OTL had African colonies --VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:52, April 19, 2012 (UTC).

Austria-Hungary is the best example.But this part of strength is right.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:11, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Somebody can explain how i can use this bonus on my colonies?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:14, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

The current system is just based on geography, Scandinator. Currently, if a new player joined as Romania, he would have the bonus while Vietnam would not. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:17, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

24 hours have passed, and the vote is 7 to 1 in favor. Therefore, I'll amend the announcement. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:02, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

I am indifferent to the colonies bonus, all my former colonies in Africa declared independance before this...-Lx (leave me a message) 12:18, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

And again!
Um, Persia gave me its Australian colony because I supported it in its invasion of the Swedish colony in Southy America but our troops withdrew when Persia declared that they had won!! :D Imperium Guy 11:39, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I too have an issue with the map, the Sultanate of Sokotara has been expanding into that grey nation in OTL Somalia and it hasn't been shown. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:29, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Imperium. We didn't really "won". It's just a withdraw because Russia was losing the war and I did not want to take any chances. ):

P.S. What is that orange territory on OTL Brazil? RandomWriterGuy 15:30, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Neue Brandenburg.Frankly, how you didn't noticed it until now?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh shame, looks like I have to invade it... only joking! :P Imperium Guy 17:36, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Nouvelle-Gascogne has expanded to get a way to expand (outlet ot the black territories), and shouldbe coloured blue. Songhay and Nouvelle-Normandie should also be blue. They are colonies of France, as Guiée, while Akon is a vassal.

And, RWG, don't be offended but... Do you even read other ones's posts or you just copy-paste not even reading the events? --Galaguerra1 18:13, April 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * What? you are trying to say that Nouvelle Normandie is expanding north?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:36, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

The copy pasting is just for colonial expansion. Nothing else more. RandomWriterGuy 05:09, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Request
Could a new industrialization map be put up as I think the old map is outdated by atleast 50 years. Thank you! :D Imperium Guy 18:27, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

I will update it when i have the time.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:29, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Updated.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:35, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Collie, much appreciated! :D Imperium Guy 10:50, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden and Russia
Sweden cannot take any territory from Russia unless LxCaucassus agrees, as the algorithm was between Vietnam and France, and thus, only France can be forced to lose any territory. No one else can lose anything without volunterily agreeing to. Since Lx has refused to give that land to Sweden, Scandinator cannot take it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:26, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Does this mean he's becoming increasingly implausible? --RandomWriterGuy 19:32, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, but see for yourself what happened when they both resolved to fight a ATL equivalent of the Great Northern War; Great Northern War (Archive Section 4) this is the worst case of what occasionally happens in wars between Sweden and Russia.read the posts below the algorythm to get a picture.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:57, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Scan, you need to cut this out. You've been warned before, for chrissake. Lordganon 19:40, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Then we go about this the old-fashioned way: Algorithims. Me and Scan are right now trying to establish a foothold against the Russians in the Americas. :P Imperium Guy 21:22, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Another Sweden-Russia war over Lithuania? This conflict has become horribly long drawn out (although not as ridiculous as the Venetian hatred of Vietnam). LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:25, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

But, regardless, it will take another algorithm to win any territory from Russia, you cannot take any territory from the current war, as its loser was France. If this turns into Great Northern war 5, I'm going to be mad, and so are the Swedish people, most likely. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:29, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Alright I'll stick with Calais only. Scandinator (talk) 22:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Also if I had been allowed to take the full algorythm bonus from the second war then none of the other two (3rd and 4th) would have started. I want Lithuania so that I can complete my original plan for the Baltic Alliance and Alaska because I was there first. Scandinator (talk) 23:24, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Since Galaguerra agreed to let you take Calais, you can keep that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:26, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

But Onguayal is at war with the Russian colony, so what should I do about that. I intend to capture the Russian colony, so... :/ Imperium Guy 11:49, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

That colony is actualy French. Russia has no colonies in South America. And Fine, I will let Scan have Alaska if he lets me have BC and The REst of the West Coast-Lx (leave me a message) 12:12, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

No we return to pre war borders. Scandinator (talk) 06:35, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I say Status quo ante bellum, meaning everything ebfore the war should be restored, including the Franco-Russian Union if they like. RandomWriterGuy 01:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Onguayal (L), Bharat (M), Manoa (MV), Jaffna (MV), Old ACG colony (MV), Old Hattanwaddy portion (MV), Sweden (M)/ UGS (MV)/ IEC (MV) Baltic Alliance (MV), Dravidia (M): 25
 * Military:7
 * Expansion:-6
 * Puppet States:-2
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 9
 * UTC Time: 19:19 = 81
 * Edits: 7734
 * (7734/81)*pi = 299.963 9 2
 * Stablity: 0.9^1.25/1.25^0.9*2.5*7=12
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 66

France

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: France (L), Akon (MV): 17
 * Military: 0
 * Expansion: -2
 * Puppets: -4
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: (No reply)
 * Stablity: 0.3^1.25/1.25^0.3*2.5*8=4.15
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 37+Chance

Result
Onguayali victory. Onguayal recieves half of Neuelle-Normandie.

Discussion
That colony is Russian. Lx you need to pay more attention. Its the one in the Andes. Scandinator (talk) 00:17, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ou yay! then send all of Russian Vassals and stuff to the aid, and the Colonies dont have much choice, thats Novorossiya, South Africa, Poland-Lithuania-Belarus(personal Union), Kazakhstan, The Iroquois and Armenia. That Sould do it. that would be 13 extra points, I guess...and if its in the Andes, I am pretty sure that it would count as High ground(becasue of the andes mountains being incredibly high), bit Heck, I'm not an expert about the geography of south America. Also, If a colony is being attacked, then I would assume its life or death, and the attacker would not get the Life or death motive(I know I tried to do this, but every time I declred war on Poland its because the throne of Lithuania was "Claimed" by poland...I know that' no better, but every time It was reduced to political motive, so this should not be an exception).-Lx (leave me a message) 00:21, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

and BTW, where is ONguayal anyways? I thought that colony was french...We were the same colour...and If I did get it its probablhy becasue of a tach or land trade, I did not establish any colonies, and did not aid in the war against Hanthawaddy, so...I did not think its mine...-Lx (leave me a message) 00:28, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

WTF? The colony in the andes is ''mine. ''I posted that the mapmakers should colour it blue (what they didn't). Is Nouvelle-Normandie. Seriously, I've been expanding it the last decades and no one know is mine?--Galaguerra1 01:58, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Onguayal is the country which is in the Bharati colour (although I think that is wrong as it is a semi-independent state). I think it is the French colony (sorry Gal, but I really need a link to the sea), because that is what Gal told me and so did Lx. :/ Imperium Guy 07:30, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The colony is French. it only was in Russian color last map because i forgot to color it..--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:02, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Could someone fill in the French military and expansion please? :D Imperium Guy 10:57, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, would Onguayal be able to become yellow on the industrialization map if it successfully captures the French colony and connects raidroads to the factories in the former French colony, transporting superior industrial techniqes and workers as well as equipment to build factories? And what happens if my majority is great enough for a government transplant of the French? :/ Imperium Guy 17:43, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

The French and Russian stabilities are the same. Are any French vassals helping? I removed the Russian ones because they are no longer at war with Russia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:25, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I'l sell you the southern outlet to the sea, but I want to keep most of that land. I've worked hard to expand that colony, and you passed through mine, took the country I was planning to invade (Onguayal) without asking me, and then attacked me when I jsut helped you to obtain that land and didn't protest when you took it. I want at least make all that effot worth and keep most of the land. You'll have an outle to the sea and a way to expand south. --Galaguerra1 17:43, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

When you put it that way, it makes me feel bad. I will agree to your request, but on three conditions (the latter two are silly): I get the southern potion of the colony as shown on the map, cricket is made your official sport and you alert Bharat when you invade Aisac-Loirenne, so we can send you all the supprot we can muster. I think the conditions are not bad and although I might take quite a bit from your colony, you have to see I agreed to negociate and you retain the northern portion of you colony (I would have won otherwise). :/ Imperium Guy 17:59, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

O.o, sorry, I might have exagerated. I accept your terms. The next decade I will probably invade Rhineland, so I'll make you know. The next year, the first hindu cricket trainers will be requested, so France will beocme a part of the all mighty bharati cricket colonial empire (?). Thank you very much. I have sufficient land to keep expanding. --Galaguerra1 19:42, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the cricket colonial empire, but yes France will become part of the cricket playing nations. On top of that, I plan to have a South American Regional Cricket Championship. Glad you have accepted the terms, and the war will end in 1881. :D Imperium Guy 19:49, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Galaguerra, you did not post any such claim to being the one to conquer Onguayal, so stop acting like you are somehow wronged in it being taken over in the first place. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:38, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

The dark
It is 1880 and based on current colonization speeds by 2012 we will still have "unexplored" areas. I'm saying we really need to speed up all colonization. Scandinator (talk) 01:12, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, I'm having Dravidia expand Kongo as fast as I can into the Congo basin area, but otherwise much of Africa and parts of South America will still be "unclaimed". LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:38, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Here is my proposal: we have a African, South American,and Australian division conference for the next two turns after this one (1881 and 1882), in which the black areas are divided up. After which, colonial expansion within a nation's colonial claims from the conferences are not bound by colonial expansion, only by plausibility (like normal expansion). Also, expansion within grey areas within Africa and South America are still limited by the colonial expansion, but are treated as if they were black. Expansion in areas not claimed by your nation, and grey areas not in Africa or South America, would still follow the standard colonial expansion equation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:47, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

North America? I propose Hungary hosts it as it is in a central location. Scandinator (talk) 08:35, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary seems to be beginning a phase of turmoil, I think Naples might be a bit better position. :/ Imperium Guy 10:59, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Then either Naples or Bharat. RWG might do something random if we put it in Persia. Or he might copy paste and remain oblivious to the entire conference. Scandinator (talk) 11:02, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

If we have two positions, then one of the conferences should be solely for Africa and one for solely South America. Thoughts? :D Imperium Guy 11:05, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

No, Hungary accepts the part of host. explaining the recent events: i was thinking on a way to get Serbia to be independent, as i said that some nation would break off of Hungary in this century.as you know, is Serbia.i got to the conclusion that it will be promoted to a autonomous government on the model of Itsaygahi, but it later, will declare independence.the Albanian movement already stagnated, and will stay like this for some time, but by the time that this emnds, Serbia, Diocleia and Albania wll become something like autonomous provinces, on the way that you saw in Itsaygahi/Tsalagi. eventually, Serbia declares independence, and annexes Diocleia.Albania stays like this until the decolonization proccess begins, when the province will lose importance, and in some time, will also declare independence.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:00, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, ok. i think that was me misreading it. But beware, I how have the oppotunity to establish 2 more colonies, so I will be establishing them. It just depends on what areas of Africa I could colonize. :D Imperium Guy 17:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

I got it. Maybe by the 1890's, we can establish one colony per year and expand them in rates like 1000000x1000000 sq. mi. or other stuff. RandomWriterGuy 22:40, April 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * No.the maximum number of colonies that a nation can have is 7.and, don't forget that after 1945, you only can have 3 colonies at maximum.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:55, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well in OTL, nations had many colonies. Why can't we do the same thing. RandomWriterGuy 14:01, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then we are going to need new rules for expansion. and your proposal, concerning size of expansion, is way off.in one year you could expand one trillion square miles, according to your calculation.this is impossible, even in real life.if you disregard the multiplication, and expand one 1 million square miles, in 10 years, you could annex more territory that the Mongol Empire ever held at it's peak.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:18, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Since we are going for central location, the city where the conference would be held could be Pozsony, or Bécs.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:55, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Moving on. What will the date of the conference be? We are already late by about 10 years (I think) compared to OTL. :s Imperium Guy 17:30, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

How about we try to keep it as close to the OTL conference (1884-1885), and do it in, 1883?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:09, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

1883 sounds alright to me. So we will be discussing the fate of South America and Africa, correct? :D Imperium Guy 20:40, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Just start now cause its gonna last many in game years anyway. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:45, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Recent German moderator events
I crossed out Scandinator's recent German moderator events, due to the fact that they are implausible, potentially biased, and another moderator agreed. Here, I am stating my reasons for crossing out this event, as I feel moderator events should only be removed if a good reason is given.

Berlin and Silesia are rising nations, their governments would have the strong support of people who are grateful to be pulled out of decades of civil disarray. There is no way that they would suddenly just collapse and implode like that, since they had been doing so well and expanding for the past several years. The German people are tired of more than 40 years of civil war, anyone who wanted to pull them back into that chaos would have no support. It is clearly implausible

The reason I am bringing up the subject of bias is that, just after Scandinator makes a new German puppet state whose goal he clearly states is to reunite the German area, he has the few rival states which could unite large portions of that area collapse all of a sudden. To me, this implausible event seems to quite plainly be an opportunity for his German puppet state to suddenly swoop in and unite northern Germany. As he has shown a great interest in this area before, and there have been instances in the past of Scandinator being accused (by me) of misusing moderator powers in this area.

I personally think that it is unethical for moderators to be causing moderator events in areas which their nations are interested. If I had posted the event in which Itsaygahi broke apart, and then the very next turn launched a major attack from one of my nations into Itsaygahi, it would clearly have been me using my moderator powers to weaken my foe. If I had caused the Kongo nation to suddenly implode and go black on the map, right before I established my Dravidian colony there, I would have clearly been misusing my moderator powers. Unless the event is historical (like a natural disaster), no moderator should use moderator events to weaken areas in which one of their nations is attempting to expand in, especially if said event is implausible. To do so is unethical. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:37, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

This actually kind of reminds me of the Persian unrest incident. I mean, Scan cannot do it without evidence. In fact, he put it all there without proof, just like right now. SHould we bar him from non-disaster mod events? RandomWriterGuy 01:41, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Proof/evidence of what, exactly? Do you mean reasons? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

You can say that. RandomWriterGuy

I think stuff to do with Persia was because your stablity was low and I think he wanted you to work on your stablity or your country would break apart. I don't really think stablized German ststes would break apart again. :/ Imperium Guy 07:26, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

North America
Starting map for North America. Please do not post new maps until it has been confirmed what your claims will be. The present condition of how North America stands.

Persia:

 * Claims in California, the Great Basin region, and some Itsahagian states.

China:

 * California coast, Mexico up to the Rio Grande, Arizona, New Mexico (Will be claimed when Chinese California revolts), some Itsaygahi states

Russia:

 * Claims from St Petersburg conference (and perhaps the right to certian Itsahagian states)-Lx (leave me a message) 12:10, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden:

 * Claims OTL Alaska; Canada west of Quebec not including the peninsula into the Great Lakes; and the US States of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa and Winsconsin. These are the only claims Sweden has in the world.Swedish_NA_Claim.png
 * I already own a part of Winsconsin.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:06, April 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take the western half then. Scandinator (talk) 06:42, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * This still is too little.How about all of nebraska and western halves of North and South Dakota?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:06, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * You must understand this is Sweden's only operating colonial area in the world. You have Africa and South America. I only have North America now.
 * I understand.given the map that i was talking about, i am willing to give up my claims on the territory that i was talking about, except for Winsconsin.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:05, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Deal. Scandinator (talk) 05:12, May 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Russia would never agree to any claim giving their territory to Sweden. Russia's been in Alaska and the rest of North America for as long as Sweden has, you can't just demand they give you their claims. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:11, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Russia in Alaska??? BWAHAHAHA!!!! They only just went into Alaska less than a few decades ago. I've been there for 300 years mate. Tthe russians have no right to claim the entire west coast. I've been there for 200 to 300 years and invested countless years on expanding them and Russia has a tiny pathetic colony. I could have just claimed North Island in New Zealand and booted Russia out of the rotterdam Conference like they did to Sweden in the St Petersburg one. Scandinator (talk) 13:33, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you read what I had posted, instead of just hurling insults, you would see that I said North America in General, they had their colony on the East coast for a while. Furthermore, as more evidence that you apparently did not even read my post, your map has Sweden claiming territory that Russia currently owns. And stop whining about the St. Petersburg conference, Russia still gave you huge claims in that conference. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:27, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam:

 * Vietnam's claims to North America were ended after Collie expanded Newfoundland to the Great Lakes, and Kanada declared independance.
 * New Taihoku (Taiwan's North America colony)- As much of mainland BC as they can get.

Greece:

 * Claims to all unclaimed Minnesota, OTL North and South dakota, and all Nebraska north of the North Platte River.To understand better, see this map: --Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:50, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Newfoundland

 * All of unoccupied Labrador peninsula.

Seminole

 * The former itsaygahian states that have a coast on the atlantic sea, the one that borders Novorossiya and the one with a coast on the Great Lakes.

Isloque

 * The rest of the former Itsaygahi.

South America
Starting map for South America. Please do not post new maps until it has been confirmed what your claims will be. The present condition of how South America stands.

Calora

 * Will expand inward into South America until it is the width of the Hungarian colony. However, as this is somewhat expanding into Brandenburgian claimed lands, they will pay Brandenburg a fee for this, and they will always help Neue Brandenburg in any wars if they are able and they will never fight against them.

USA:

 * Claims most of OTL Columbia

Finland

 * Finnish colony of Käwäshiro claims sliced parts of OTL Eastern Colombia, all of OTL Venezuela, and parts of OTL Brazil (that border Venezuela, and bit more into OTL Brazil itself but not too much, just more slices)

Onguayal

 * Onguayal claims will be for it and Manoa. It claims most of Northern and Western Brazil already not occupied.

Uruguay

 * All of OTL Argentina, Bolivia and Paraguay which are still not occupied.

Hungary

 * Magyar Dél-Amerikaban:Territory of OTL Rio Grande do Sul, Paraná, Santa Catarina and Right to attack and conquer both Jê nations.

Persia

 * Most of Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezula, and Colombia (not the places already claimed though).

Incan Colombin Republic

 * TRUE_BORDERS.png of OTL Brazil not occupied, but since no one has updated my borders for 5 decades+ now, i own at least 1/4 of unclaimed Brazil, I also claim the Incan homeland, which I doubt will be reatekn, but I do wish for the Vuzco region, a 20 mile radius around Cuzco extending to unclaimed Brazil. Here is the ICR's REAL BORDERS AS A RESULT OF OVER 60 YEARS OF EXPANSION and no one has updated them on the map, which is insulting.
 * Dean, 65,500 sq km is only 1310 pixels on the map. That is your true area, 1310 pixels. The one on the map would be like 1.5 million sq km. ~Imp

France

 * The coast between both hanthawaddian colonies, that little state near the japanese colony and an extension that allow the colony to have a border with the vassal of Onguayal.
 * That isn't a Nipponese colony anymore, it declared independence and is the USA, who have already claimed most of OTL Columbia, which includes that little state. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:29, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew it was independent, I don't know why I put "colony". Anyway then, I claim the territory until I reach that state, you can keep that.
 * Fine by me VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:50, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam

 * Vietnam's South America colony claims the territory of the three OTL Guyana colonies.
 * New Ruthenia (New Lithuania's South America colony)- a thick strip of territory from Vietnam's South America colony to Persia's.
 * New Tainan (Taiwan's South America colony)- The unnannexed area in between Uruguay and the Chinese Incan colony.
 * Are you talking about Fjordlaand? Thats a former Swedish colony.

Neue Brandenburg

 * All of northern OTL Brazil not already colonized (I would be willing to divide it with ICR, but I think native states should be able to get preferance over nations with a power base elsewhere).Zagoria 04:45, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Africa
Starting map for Africa. Please do not post new maps until it has been confirmed what your claims will be. The present condition of how Africa stands.

Dravidia

 * The Congo basin (OTL Democratic Republic of the Congo) plus having the sole rights to attack and conquer Ndongo (the nation to the South of Kongo) and the remains of the Kongo nation

Persia

 * Angola, Zambia, Southern Congo, Mozambique

Istoias

 * All of the island of OTL Madagascar.

Hungary

 * Namib: The territory between Namib and that southern gray nation (south of Ndongo), and the sole rights to attack and said gray nation.
 * Ezsák-Afrika: all the territory separating Oroszlán (the colony located on OTL Sierra Leone) from that colony on OTL Guinea-Bissauan territory, and some territory on northern Mauritania.
 * Dél-Afrika: OTL Orange Free State and Transvaal, sole rights to attack and conquer Zululand and Lesotho.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:06, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam
Yank 18:22, April 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * East Africa- South Swahili kingdom, the various African states west of that kingdom, and the African nation directly west of Vietnam's East African colony as it stands today. As well as all the territory in between.
 * Kenia- Bale, Puntland, and the unclaimed OTL Eithiopian and Somali territory. Claims Eithiopia and Sennar as client states (will do so next turn).
 * New Samogita (New Lithuania's Africa colony)- OTL Equatorial Guinea and Gabon.

Bharat

 * Bharat claims OTL Nigeria and Niger and the uncivilized land in the interior which no nation has managed to get their hands on.

Russia

 * South-West and South Africa, Kongo Nations.(south africa, nambia, botsawana, Angola(Unclaimed), West half of Dem. Rep. of Congo, westernmost Zambia
 * Dravidia already has a colony that has taken much of Kongo, and it is about to take over Ndongo. You can take the ones to the north, but not into the Congo basin.

France

 * The territory between Nouvelle-Gascogne and the korean colony in the south, and territory enough to expand the rest opf the swahili lands, the two african states that would border that territory, and a half of the state that has a coast in the Malawi Lake, and the west coast of that lake.
 * The six states in the north of Songhay, Akon would expand until it borders Guinée, and Ginée would absorb the six states east of it.
 * France-Bharat_Africa_Deal_(PM).pngBharat has already claimed the "6 state" area.
 * I'm not talking about that six states, I'm talking about the small ones near Songhay, the colony I already have there.
 * I think that is OTL Nigeria, and I have already claimed it. Looks at Bharat's claims for Africa.
 * I already ahve colonies in that territory, you don't, I think my claim is stronger. If you want a post there, may be I can give you the bigest state and some more land, around the size of OTL Cote d'Ivoire and Togo?
 * I already have a colony in the area. I have map to see if we both can agree on the borders.
 * You have a colony there? Then it msut be recent, as it doesn't show in the map. Anyway, I have two colonies, both old and with a long history, and a vassal, and historical claims in the region. Sya me what your current colony is and I'll make another map of my proposed borders.
 * Well, ou can ahve that you showed in the map, but the rest is mine (France, Caliphate or Seminole), as I claimed above.

Spain

 * Spain claims OTL Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe and Morocco

Seminole

 * The state that was formed fromt he former itsaygahian colony and vassals would beocme a seminole protectorate.

Arabia

 * Adal will absorb the former UAA states, and expand until it borders the big state south of Egypt (if Egypt doesn't claims it, then I'll absorb it) and Kenia.
 * Absorb is probably not the right term to use, since Ethiopia Senar, and Bale are very anti-Islamist and won't go down without a full-out war.
 * Ok, "absorb" isn't the right term, but I still claim those lands.
 * I'm thinking on making Ethiopia proper a vassal. i didn't claimed here because i didn't had a idea of how to put it here.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:14, April 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And do you think that Vietnam will allow Adal to touch their client state? They'd sooner start a war than allow that.
 * You claim the unclaimed somalian territory and Puntland, so you'd be bordering Adal anyway, your objection doesn't make sense. I have been more time in that lands, and, from the three of us, I'm the one who has dedicated more time into the state I have there. Egypt hardly makes any move, and Kenia isn't that old as vassal of Vietnam. I've always worked hard in the Caliphate and its policy, so it is a more developed antion than Egypt or Kenia, and colonial expansionist, so it makes sense to me that they be the ones who take that lands.
 * To be fair, both Ethiopia and Bale and Sennar will much greatly favor Vietnam than the Caliphate, as they hate Muslims. Furthermore, Vietnam has already shown interest in Bale, which your nation hasn't. Also, Galaguerra, you are lying about the situation, as Kenia was a Vietnam vassal for many years prior to the Arabians vassalizing Adal, and Kenia has been expanding a great deal, so you cannot say they are not expansionist. Vietnam also made their claims first in this conference. All of my nations are going to back Vietnam in this conference because they clearly have a stronger claim in this area.
 * Bale is a former UAA state? I really thought it was the southern swahili kingdom that you wanted. In any way, I wasn't talikng about Adal's influence in the region, as I have been trying to influenciate the reigon since the UAA's fall, and also when the UAA existed, spreading muslim propaganda when it was in disarray. If you want so much that lands, then we just divide them, the north state for me, the southern for you, and we split the two in halfway. There's still th eproblem that they hate muslims, but are the governments. I rembemr one of those states was a persian vassal (I think), and their neighboors of the muslim sphere of influence, so at least there msut be a muslim faction in them.
 * None of those states was a Persian vassal. Ethiopia was mostly Ethiopian Orthodox save for a Schmittist minority which was destroyed and driven away. Any Muslims would have fled too Makuria and Sudan (which Makuria defeated and absorbed) were Muslim mostly, and any Christians were converted or fled. Sennar was part Muslim and part Christian, the Muslim part joined Makuria and the Christian part is independent, any minorities in those areas switched halves. Bale followed traditional religions when they first got absorbed by the UAA, and then were converted to Christian. Adal was Muslim, and Puntland is.
 * Fine, keep it, but then I'll keep the black territory in OTL Ethiopia and the two states on Somalia (ones is puntland, what is the other?)
 * The small one is called Aden, it was half Yemenese, half Ethiopian.
 * Algeria will expand until it border Morocco and absorbs the four states not absorbed by France, so I let space enough to Canariae to expand, at least he wants not to expand (If he doesn't wants that territory, I'll take it).
 * Which ones? there are nine states there:Wolof, Jennes, North Timbuktu, South Timbuktu, Timbuktu, Gao, and another state bordering it, Takrur, and East Takrur.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:06, May 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * The ones which border that little state in civil disarray.
 * Then there is Ashanti, Gao, Jennes and Wolof.
 * Libya will expand to absorb the two remaining west africans tates until it reaches the border of the current hanthawaddian colony and all in rect line.
 * Nouvelle-Patagonie will keep its current size, except there's any unclaimed territory availible to be claimed.

Brunei

 * OTL Mauritius, Reunion, and the Seychelles.

Neue Brandenburg

 * Part of OTL Namibia (note, I already have a small colony there). However, I would be willing to trade my claim (and colony) to other nations in return for territory/technology/trading arrangements.

Oceania
Wasn't this already all sorted out in the Rotterdam Conference? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:18, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think so, but Collie put it in so I think you should ask him. :P Imperium Guy 13:25, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we just need to update the Rotterdam map to show the changes to all that since the Nippon-Hanthawaddy war and the whole Mesheryakovist wars business. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:43, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

If were discussing this again, I'd like to say that Finland has the same claims as in the Rotterdam Conference (and this also extends to the Shogunate of Kōshi, they claim all of the OTL Sulawesi island and small islands around and off the Sulawesi Island) -Kogasa 13:54, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Well I've drawn up a map of Oceania divided. Is okay with everyone? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:36, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Note I wasn't too sure about what was going on on New Zealand south island & western Australia around Persia. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:37, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, you need to realise that the Spanish colony will become mine as I will decisively win the algorithim. Therefore the areas which are under the control of Ngainkera on the map which are at present New Spain will belong to Bharat like so on my map. :P Imperium Guy 13:49, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Drat <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:40, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

That aside what about the whole Persia situation & those two other grey states? Are they more native Australian states? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:44, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

The Persian colony I think is Bharati as I think it might have been conquered. The two states are aboriginal but should be under Bharati influence as we helped create them (read Hindustan and Naya Bharat posts for up to around 20 years into the past to see what I mean). The two states will also expand but will only take up a bit of extra area from the Empire of Australia, not much. :D Imperium Guy 14:50, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Didnt we already do north america in St Petersburg?-Lx (leave me a message) 12:10, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

I could not find any reference to the St Petersburg Conference anywhere. :/ Imperium Guy 13:25, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

It's here. -Kogasa 13:29, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Oh thanks Kogasa! :D Imperium Guy 13:32, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

That conference was a while ago, however, and some nations with territory claimed there have dropped out, and the claims aren't being followed in any case. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:35, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just put in some claims. Is this good? RandomWriterGuy 23:43, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also sweden was not able to take part in the St Petersburg Conference due to a state of war between Russia and Sweden. The Conference seemed to be started to piss off the Swedish as Russia was able to claim large areas of the Swedish claim with no opposition. Scandinator (talk) 23:49, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

LOLWUT, Sweden got huge portions of territory, next to Russia they had the largest amount of unclaimed territory of anyone. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:09, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

If we are ever going to get the benefits of this conference, it really needs to end by the start of the 1889 turn. If it ends later, I fear it will be too late. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:26, May 3, 2012 (UTC)2

Well, i guess that everybody already has made their claims.if so, i am going to make a map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:55, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Its only in North America. Lx whats to give me less than half of that claim and seize the west coast while taking all of southern africa. I just want that area in North America and northing else. I've been working on that territory since 1610. Scandinator (talk) 15:12, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, with Thoorland given to Newfoundland, i am understanding that his claims made on St. Petersburg about Canada pass to me.but just the unoccupied territory.again, i will make a map.after the 1890 map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:23, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I give up on the map. it is impossible to do the borders right with no references.and some of the references given are confusing.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:03, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Is this ongoing? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:24, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Editing past turns
Seriously everyone, if there is a new turn up, edit that one instead. There will always be an active turn at the bottom of the page, so you should never have to edit a past turn. I'm sorry if you like going at the very end so you can reply to everyone, but you know, someone has to go first, and you can reply to the events at the beginning of the next turn. I'm just going to start to undo edits to past turns other than moderators cancelling some implausibility we missed or someone fixing spelling. Again, to repeat, there will never be a situation in which there is not an active turn at the bottom of the page. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:28, April 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * You've certainly got my support on this matter lurk, its bloomin' annoying because its got potential to ruin everything what is going on in the current turn. Then to make matters worse, they still don't notice everything else the rest of us posted! ¬.¬ <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:33, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Peninsular Pahang
I just realized this, but the mainland portion of Pahang is still the color of Hungary, when the union with Hungary is broken and Italy controls it directly now. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:47, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

And i have just realized this as well. i will correct it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:27, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 18 (Dravidia (L), Bharat (M), Jaffna (MV), Kerala (MV), Bihar (MV), Orissa (MV), Onguayal (MV), Manoa (MVV))
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 3
 * Puppet States: -0
 * Chance: 3917/48*pi =256.36
 * Editcount = 3917
 * Time:2*3*8 =48
 * Stability: 3.3^1.25/1.25^3.3*2.5*8=42
 * Total: 77

Ndongo

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 4(Ndongo (L))
 * Puppet States: -0
 * Motive: 10
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Chance: 6
 * Stability: 32.8^1.25/1.25^32.8*2.5*7=1
 * Total: 26

Result
Dravidian victory, Dravidia can take ((77/77+26)*2)-1=50% of the nation of Ndongo at best. The war is going to last two years, so that makes (.50)*(1-1/(2*2))=38%, enough to topple the government of Ndongo easily.

Discussion
Imperium Guy told me that Bharat would send aid. If forget what their vassals' names are. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:04, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

I did promise. I gave them their proper names and sent more aid in the form of Onguayal and Manoa. I also reworkedthe results and they only make it go more in your favour. :D Imperium Guy 12:59, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: 29 (Bharat (L), Dravidia (M), Jaffna (MV), Bihar (MV), Orissa (MV), Kerala (MV), Onguayal (MV), Manoa (MVV), Vietnam (M), Kenia (MV), Kazami (M), Koshi (M))
 * Military: 15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Stablity:
 * Chance: 9
 * Time: 23:54 = 120
 * Editcount: 7864
 * (7863/120)*pi = 205.87 9 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 69+stability

Persia

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: 15 (Persia (L), Yemen (MV), Caliphate (M), Adal (MV), UJE (MV), Sokotara (MV))
 * Military:
 * Expansion: 0
 * Stablity:
 * Chance: 9
 * Time: 04:55 = 100
 * Editcount: 4484
 * (4484/100)*pi = 140.86 9 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Total:39+stability+military expansion

Result
Bharati and East Persian victory. They take most of central and east Persia.

Discussion
How this started?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:45, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

This started in 1883. I invaded Persia to rid it of the Capilate and protect the eastern hindus. Imperium Guy 07:54, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Should Persia be counted as the leader? I mean, they're jsut surrendering to Bharat, is the Caliphate which is fighting to keep the country in the union. Maybe this should be treated like the swedish succession war, so I have the help of the muslim factions and Bharat has the help of the hindu factions in Persia. If Bharat wins, I'd like to keep the muslim part of Persia, as it wuld be too hard to control for the hindu government anyway. It could become a vassal of mine or just be still controled by RWG, so he'd control two persian states, the one in union with Bharat, and the one in union with the Caliphate. --Galaguerra1 16:50, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, here is what I will get from Persia. I will annex the eastern portion and have a puppet government while you keep the western portion as they are too fundamentalist to convert. I think RWG have a hard time editing two Persias, lol. :D Imperium Guy 20:16, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

There's only one thing that Vietnam wants. They want to annex Adal and the unclaimed areas in between to Kenia. They have no other territorial ambitions.

Yank 22:18, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

This sin't a war agains thte Caliphate, but Persia. This isn't even an algorithmic war as RWG already decided that Bharat was going to win. I should keep Yemen as a vassal of my own as they are surely muslims. --Galaguerra1 03:20, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

If RWG wants me to win, then I think I'll get all of Persia and push the Capilate out in its entirety. :P Imperium Guy 07:54, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

But its implausible. Persia would break into muslim rebellions. Is best to give me the muslim lands (at least the oens you can disregard). About the religious and cultural policy, RWG hasn't done anything in the game but implausibilities. I hope he's wise enough to give me this. --Galaguerra1 17:20, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

There should be consequences for every nation fighting on the losing side.

Yank 20:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Yank. :/ Imperium Guy 21:20, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

That's not how the system works. We must do the most plausible thing, and I still think that this is gonna be troubeling for Persia in general. I've already lost this war, I have no problem while I don't lose any land (or claiming), I just think that the most plausible thing is to give me that territory. --Galaguerra1 21:37, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

If all of Persia joins Bharat, large portions of it will break away in moderator revolts. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:02, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I have changed my government. These problems should not occur. Also, Persia is not fighting Bharat. They are trying to rid of themselves from the union. It should be the Calpihate Bharat should be declaring war on! RandomWriterGuy 23:19, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for peace, and also offered a way out from the colonization problem with Vietnam. I hope we can be in peace now. But, RWG, I must say that have a liberal government won't do anything but turn the things worst, as the muslims (still a majority) are fundamentalists. I suggest you to create an independent country, that would be fundamentalist, but still under your control (not like a vassal, but like the way we control our former coloneis in America that are now independent), and a small state in the province of Kashimir that would remain in union with Bharat. That's the only way you won't lose territory.--Galaguerra1 01:27, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, you could have your government at the highest stability it could be at and having such a large fundamentalist Muslim area falling under a very strongly Hindu government would result in revolts. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:36, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I am willing to give the Capilate the western portion of Persia to keep in their dynastical union while the eastern will become part of Bharat in a dynastical union as well. There map here says how Persia will turn out. West Persia will become a muslim state while east Persia will become a hindu state. Deal? Imperium Guy 11:55, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree. though you should talk RWG about this, as you're planning to take territory not just as a union, but directly, form Persia. --Galaguerra1 16:32, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Being split is really the only option for Persia at this point I'm afraid, they have a huge religious divide at this point. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:16, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

So does this go through? :/ Imperium Guy 21:30, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

I am not agreeing with all of this! No divided country at all! I will give Hindus equqal rights so that the split does not occur! RandomWriterGuy 22:05, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Your nation is quite literally in civil war over religion right now, they aren't going to trust each other to stay united. If you had posted something in response to other people's posts and not ignoring them, a problem of yours that you need to address, then you could have given one side a major advantage. Perhaps, if you only give up some territories to Bharat (like half of what would break away), you could keep control if you didn't join with the Caliphate (or, vise versa, give the caliphate a few territories and then manage to keep control of the rest of your nation if you didn't have Dynastic union with Bharat) but jumping between dynasties of opposing religions creates this sort of situation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:13, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

How about giving Hindus some rights then? RandomWriterGuy 23:04, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

RWG, don't you understand? This is not gonna fix by gicing the people rights. There's a wa rin Persia on religious fundamentalism, and the fundamentalist know as much about "rights" as the ancient spartans knew about democracy. This is the only option. You accept the splitting of your country and keep controling the two parts, but separated (one in union with Bharat, the other one in union with the Caliphate), or the moderators begin splitting your country into several warlordships and Imperium and me invade the rest to tkae as much land as we can from Persia. --Galaguerra1 02:39, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

FINE. By the time you agreed to a split, I wasn't even here. WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TOLD ME THIS EARLIER?! OMG! NOW YOU GOT ME INTO BIG TROUBLE! I DID NOT ASK FOR THIS! RandomWriterGuy 04:29, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

They were stating that there were becoming more and more Hindus in the East while the West was becoming more and more fundamentalist Muslim for years and years. The fact that you ignore other peoples' posts in this game is your own fault. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:43, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I was aware of the Hiindu conversion! I did not think what the result would be! RandomWriterGuy 23:37, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

How will the persian colonies be divided? Vicia is mostly catholic, and, as Imperium hasn't sent missionaries to the colonies, I supose the amazonia one is muslim, or russian cothodox (if established during the time in which Persia was ruled by an orthodox Shah). The former hanthawaddian colony must be of some eastern religion. Yemen is obviously muslim, so it remains in union with the Caliphate. The persian australian colony is close enoguh to the bharati colony to be influenciated from it, so is probably hindu or at least will subject to a conquest.--Galaguerra1 17:19, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Kazakh Revolt discussion (moved from main page)
I am very pleased to see that this is what I had an edit conflict with...and I mean that in a very sarcastic way. I try to post my response only for it to be in an edit conflict with "russia has more revolts becasue we did not respond to kazakhstan!" I come on to try to fix the kazakhstan thing(they were a seperate nation that I let do anything they wanted and treated very good, i dont understand why they would protest in the first place, especialy with much "russia is good" propaganda everywhere, also with the troops they send consisting almost always of volunteers), and my edit is in conflict with other minorities, to witch I have granted many rights, to come out in protest. that make no sense, especialy since russia has a very good track record of not having many protests or revolts in russia(during this time frame, there were only 3 major ones as i recall, 1905 revolution(witch was becasue everyone wanted contitution), the revolutioin of 1917 and the small pugachev insident. -Lx

You didn't respond for three turns to the Kazahk revolts, not counting the time you responded after the turn was up. In any case, your current edit was done past the time, and as was announced on the talk page, I am going to start enforcing this rule. You had several turns before this to protest any implausibility or unfairness of the revolts. Furthermore, multiple nations have been encouraging revolts and sending propaganda into Kazahkstan The event stands, and your late post has been deleted as per the rules and the announcement. If you are on the wiki now, why are you not editting this turn, as it is currently active? -LLB

I dont realy like editing before mod events becasue I want to react to them, and I dislike missing turns. And My post was in edit conflict with a mod event. simple. I assume that by this time tommorow, there will be a mod event for the turn, so that I can edit, this one happened to be early. that is one reason i edit later, i cant realy go on untill perhaps 7:30 or 8:00 most of the time for extended periods of time and i want to reply ot mod events, that dont usualy get posted at the begining. I gave powers to the Governates of russia, I gave them power over ceratin aspects of eduction(language) and culture, what else do you want me to do???? massacre them to instill fearful obediance??? from my 1880 post(the first mention of kazakh minor revolts):"Russia sends out anti-Persian-union Propaganda and propaganda that views the russians as the harbingers of freedom and democracy to the people of Kazakhstan, with the small price of having to support russia's military at all costs." I did respond to the situation, and in 1883 felt the need to remind that I actualy did respond to the situation. -Lx

'''Generally, I put up events soon after or with the heading. You should edit whatever turn is active at the time. If Scandinator puts up some event later than the main ones come up, you could always respond the next turn (before the next wave of moderator events come up, so I'd see your response below and factor that in). Just because Kazakhstan revolted now doesn't mean that war is the only option, if you send counter-propaganda you could probably cause people who are Christian or moderate Muslim or otherwise Russified to revolt from the Kazakhs and regain part of Kazakhstan, at least the northern half -LLB'''

Look, I gave them the south in my other post that got deleted. I already got into a rythm of at around 8-10(1-3 hours after UTC 00:00 depending on the DST) to edit because mod events werent always posted right when the year started, and generaly, that was the leniancy with witch you were able since when i started playing, it will probably take a week or so to ajust. and I wouldnt think that the no edit would be this "nothing after 00:00" and whoever posted the mod event where large scale revolts happened, "they will fight to the death" kind of implied that if I dont go to war, they will seperate, so it was in a way implied that war was the only option. I dont want to leave the things I edited for this turn, and, please, just put this stuff in the talk page so that it doesnt clutter up the space where people post their turns...i dont want them to be dragged into my issues. -Lx

They swear they will fight to the death, but that doesn't mean that they all will be unified. You can keep your post this one time, and I will be more lenient this week as long as your posts don't contradict anything posted. -LLB

May I have Kazakhstan? RandomWriterGuy 03:02, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Inactivity Notice
My activity may be a bit patchy during the month of May. My Grandmother recently died and I've got all sorts of funeral business to attend to in addition to finals. CrimsonAssassin 03:44, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

I may also be less active due to exam revision too <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Me three. I am starting to get shedloads of homework. :/ Imperium Guy 21:14, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Ahh I have no homework because of ISTEP+ testing :) I love ISTEP. Easy, and no homework :) PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:18, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues
Istoias now controls the entire coastline of Madagascar. Also, the Swiss-French land sale and the change in borders between Italy and Switzerland makes the map look like this:

LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:21, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, and there is another state in Australia between the Bharati colony and the Kingdom of Australia. :P Imperium Guy 21:29, May 2, 2012 (UTC)

Scandinator's Actions
This must be the fifth or more time in which I have been forced to bring up Scandinator's actions upon this talk page. I swear, that one way or another, this conflict ends now. Although this is sparked by Scandinator's recent actions, this has been a distrubing trend I have noticed across this entire game. Scandinator controls other peoples' nations, controls NPC nations, creates moderator events, abuses his multiple nation set-up with freed colonies, and is generally implausible for a sole purpose: to seize territory. Only three players have ever been suspended off of the entire wiki for their actions in this game, and Scandinator is one of them, again, because he was trying to seize more territory than plausible and not cooperating with other players to do so.

Recent instances: As can be seen, Scandinator has abused his moderator powers, his multiple nations, and he has been implausible and controlled other nations in his quest to gain a gigantic empire. I do not want this turning out like Imperial Europe 2, where he was given free rein. Thus, I am going to have Germany and Finland revolt from Sweden due to the fact that his recent violations were concentrated in those two years. This is plausible, as mironationalism is on the rise in Eurasia, and Russia has sent propaganda into these areas in attempts to turn them against Sweden.
 * Controlling Finland, a nation that belongs to another player, and having Sweden totally conquer it in a war in which Finland was not even the nation which would, by the algorithm, be forced to lose territory,
 * Controlling Russia, a nation that belongs to another player, and having the Russian military carry out the implausable genocide of 50% of the Finnish people.
 * His uncooperative behavior in the Constantinople conference, where he has demanded implausably large amounts of territory, attempted to seize claims established a century ago, and angrily attacking Lx for the past St. Petersburg conference. When confronted about this, he ignored my posts and responded in a mocking manner.
 * He ignored my moderator event in Germany which stated that Berlin was opposed to Swedish power to establish control over it without an algorithm, as has the entirety of his expansion into Germany been.
 * In the same vein, he earlier created implausable moderator events to try and destroy Berlin, obviously in an attempt to have his German puppet state take control over all of Germany.
 * His attempt to make a puppet state which just regained independence rejoin with its former nation, something that would never happen.

However, I do not feel that Scandinator can be trusted with a moderator position any longer. We cannot have a moderator whose posts have to be frequently crossed out due to implausibility or rules violations. We cannot have a moderator whose moderator events have repeatedly shown signs of bias. We cannot have a moderator who has brought the Wikia administration down upon this wiki. Thus, I now make a motion to remove Scandinator from his moderator position on this map game. Per precedent, Scandinator is not allowed to vote in this vote, and only moderators can vote (although normal users can comment in the discussion). LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:56, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

For Demoting Scandinator to a Normal User (moderators -Scandinator only)

 * LurkerLordB (Talk)
 * Yank 22:04, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Zagoria 02:55, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Comments/Discussion (anyone)
If Scan does lose his moderation spot, I'd like to put myself forward as a candidate to be a new mod. I have previous experience in map game modding, am a TSPTF constable and most of my time at the moment on the Wikia is playing this game. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:32, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Sweden is also compromised by a lot of other ethnic minorities too. Is it possible for them to revolt as well? RandomWriterGuy 23:36, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yep it should be but that'd be a mod event. Also its a mod only vote RWG, its clearly stated above in the last paragraph of Lurk's explanation of why this is happening. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:46, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Currently I am limiting the revolts to areas where Scandinator has committed the violations. I expect that eventually in the future, Flanders and England will break free. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:58, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

I dont think we need more mods, because If Scan is "demoted" to normal user, there will be 7 mods, and this will make it better becasue ther will always be a majority one way or the other if all the mods vote(in past games I have shown enthusiasm for odd numbers of moderators). -Lx (leave me a message) 02:09, May 4, 2012 (UTC

I quit. I'm in a highly stressful environment in real life and I dont need this crap after every thing I've done for PM. I could argue with you LLB but you only seem to see my bad side. Kogasa can take all the areas mapped in green. Germany MUST reunite. Flanders goes to France. England goes to Vietnam with the hope of uniting the British Isles. Denmark will be highly independent but maintains close ties with Germany. IEC and Asgard to vietnam/Taiwan. New Sweden to China. Fiji to Solomon Islands to Nippon. rest of Wonderlaand to Fjordlaand, which will rejoin the ICR. Tasmania to Spain. Thorlaand to Collie's Quebec nation. Hawaii to Joseon.

Also dont forget the anarchist movement in the 1890s to 1910s. I've helped to get you guys started. So long! Scandinator (talk) 08:13, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Also I will be starting a new map game in January. I have learnt a lot from PM and will create it without PM's flaws in the algorythms and colonial system.Scandinator (talk) 08:16, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Also IE2 was due to redmelldo's actions. He was going to take Europe in a few turns and I tried to match him and everything went out of control. It was also my early days on the wikia and there was no-one on the map game telling us it was implausable. Scandinator (talk) 08:22, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, i remember that before you and Remedello entered, the only person playing there was me, and by the time that you both entered, i already had gone inactive.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:50, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

If you would rather quit than admit that you have been playing unfairly, I cannot stop you Scandinator. However, you cannot demand that Germany reunite. Also, your division of your colonies is a bit implausable, the Alaskan ones would stay independent or would join Russia, they have no ties to Vietnam, and it is clear that you simply excluded Lx out of spite. Furthermore, if the ICR gains that amount of land, they will collapse into total civil disarray and be forced to withdraw. Since the vote is unanimous agaisnt you, you will be removed from your moderation position regardless of whether or not your ragequit is final. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:27, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

yes, Especialy since that if sweden was on the verge of colapse, russia would go in and take the baltics, the Kola and Karelia(that is now part of Sweden, not FInland), and help create 4 Seperate Finno-Scandian States, Finland, Sweeden, Denmark, and Norway.

I am not ragequiting, I've just given up. Everyone seems against me and I just don't need such a drain on my time if I'm just going to get persecuted here. I had a load of plans including creating the USSR (Union of Scandinavian Socialist Republics) and have the famous Iron Curtain speech. Russia does need the land in Alaska, he'll just invade Kogasa's Finland portion and then Denmark. Vietnam was always close to Sweden. Scandinator (talk) 23:41, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I was there, ready to stand firm against all opposition to support Sweden. I was building up a huge navy so that Sweden and Bharat together could dominate the high seas against the Russians. Come back, and I'll make sure that our domination goes ahead. Imperium Guy 13:04, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

War of Swedish Partion?
Because of the anarchy in Sweden, I was wondering if there are any nations joining to seize colonies and lands from the disordered Sweden. Who's with me? RandomWriterGuy 05:04, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I will be in all the way. I want my Baltics, the Kola and Karelia back!-Lx (leave me a message) 19:50, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'll annex the German Confederacy to Rhineland, so I'll take it pacifically. I'd want to annex Denmark, or at least a part, to have a outlet in the Baltic Sea. I'll support any russian claim. Novo-Armannak will particiapte in any attempt to take land from the northern state, specially form Iceland. If possible, I'll help you take lands from Fjorlaand, for both France and Malouinas. --Galaguerra1 21:31, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Revenge shall be yours, Russia! RandomWriterGuy 04:54, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues strikes back
As specified above, the french southern outlet in the peruvian colony should be part of Onguayal. Persia's both aprts should be colorated as the countries the joined (or may be the Caliphate should be colorated brown, to distinguish from the rest of less important former french colonies). The southernmost mississipia state should be colorated light green,a s Isloque and Haiti are, as now is a puppet. Songhay and AKon should be united, as they're no longer a colony and a vasal, but a single colony. Libya and Algeria, as no more separated, should be also one. Yemen should be at the Caliphate's colour.

As far as I know, all of Madagascar's coast is now part of Istoias. --Galaguerra1 21:31, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

There's also the fact that "East" Persia needs to be recoloured in Bharat's colour as they are a Bharati vassal/client state. Also Sweden's Asgard colony has been annexed by Taiwan.

Yank 00:18, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

All of Madagascar's coast is part of Istoias, this should have been added 2 maps ago. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:57, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Spain's Inactivity
Since ManofSteele has been inactive for weeks I have decided to post a mod action breaking up the Spanish Empire next turn.

Yank 00:24, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Expansion
Since he had so many conflicting claims and no one could make a map, I gave up on the claims idea and just posted a moderator event saying that expansion in all wild areas is now tripled (with expansion in the tropic wild areas still also recieves the additional 1.5 modifier as well) so that will hopefully allow us to create realistic colonial empires over the next two decades. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:59, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Spanish colonies of Australia (Bharat-Castille War)
Since Spain declared war on me for taking over its Australian colony ages ago, and since broke up, do I get its remainder Australian colonies? It declared war in 1887 and then broke up, so I don't know whether I need an algorithim to take over its colonies as I don't know if I need one against Castille. :/ Imperium Guy 13:11, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'll do an algorithim anyway to show how the war would end up. Imperium Guy 13:40, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Castille
Total: 38
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Castille (L): 4
 * Military: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 6 (random.org)
 * Stability: 12 (1^1.25/1.25^1*2.5*6)
 * Participation: 10

Bharat
Total: 80
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: (Bharat (L), Orissa (MV), Dravidia (M), Onguayal (MV), Manoa (MVV), Kerala (MV)): 14
 * Military: 12
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 5
 * Puppet States:-2
 * Chance: 7
 * Editcount: 7956
 * Time: 13:42 = 24
 * (7956/24)*pi = 1041.43 7 9
 * Stability: 25 (13.5^1.25/1.25^13.5*2.5*8)
 * Participation: 10

Result
Bharati victory. Bharat can take ((82/82+38)*2)-1=77% of Castillian territory at best. The war is going to last 2 years, so that makes (.77)*(1-1/(2*2))=58%, enough to topple the government and take its colonies. The remaining state goes to France in exchance for a French colony.

Discussion
As I said, here is the algorithim. :P Imperium Guy 13:49, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I have finished the algorithim and it is in my favour. I have also got the country of Castille as my puppet rather than conquered. Anything I should change? :D Imperium Guy 14:24, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, Onguayal is a vassal or a puppet? because if it is, then Manoa is a puppet, then you lose one point for each puppet state you have.at my calculations, you have three.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:00, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

I want the peninsular land of Castillai, in the iberian peninsula, I've been claiming it for centuries. --Galaguerra1 19:48, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

For that you will need to give me your West Africa colony as you did not send aid. :P Imperium Guy 20:25, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

I wanted to send aid, but you didn't understand my message (thoguh I think it was obvious). --Galaguerra1 20:30, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realise. For this, I can give you the whole of Castille to control if you hand over a West African French colony of my choosing please. :/ Imperium Guy 20:42, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

I prefer to not xD, but as long as you promise to not disturb my claims on the other three iberian state, it's all ok. ~Gal

I'm fine with that!! :D Imperium Guy 21:24, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

And Collie, Onguayal is the one which can establish colonies (which reminds me...). But whats the difference? :/ Imperium Guy 21:26, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

That we estabilished some time ago, that you can have a unlimited number of puppet states, but you lose points on a algorythm for each one you have.I assume that Kerala and Orissa are puppets.if they are vassals, then Onguayal is a puppet.Manoa certainly will be counted as one.Either way, you will lose two or three points.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:19, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

I put V for each one, losing one point while two V's for Manoa cause its a vassal of a puppet. I think I kinda get what you mean and I will say Jaffna and Orissa are vassals of Bharat while Onguayal is under a puppet government but can merge with other nations and establish puppets. :D Imperium Guy 08:22, May 8, 2012 (UTC)

United States of Germany

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 18 (USG (LV), France (M), Flanders (MV), Bharat (M), Jaffna (MV), Orissa (MV), Onguayal (MV), Manoa (MVV))
 * Millitary: 2
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 10
 * Stability:1.6^1.25/1.25^1.6*2.5*8=25
 * Chance: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 78

Austrian Empire

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:1
 * Strength: 4 (Austria (L))
 * Millitary: 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:9
 * Editcount:55
 * Time:1*3=3
 * (55/3)*pi = 57.59
 * Stability:5.5^1.25/1.25^5.5*2.5*7=43
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 80

Result
Austrian Victory, Austria can at most take ((80/(80+78))*2)-1 = 0.012% of USG territory. Austria can choose how long the war lasts.

Discussion
I used french military expansion as Germany's in the algorithm. The same should go on stability and chance, as the USG are a vassal of France--Galaguerra1 21:47, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Ah ok I did not know that USG was a vassal of France but thank you. -Althistoryman11

Is it ok If I have a mod finish off the result from the algorthim plese.-Althistoryman11

Should they do so for stability though? Because they are a seperate nation. Have we had any wars where a vassal was a lead combatant before for a precedent, or should we decide something? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:38, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

I checked, France's will be used. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:54, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

OK, Austria has won, Althistoryman11, how long to you want the war to last? As that will determine the exact amount you'll be able to take. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:18, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I have supported France (I posted below its country post but I don't think Gal realised and he posted a request for help under my country post, lol). So the outcome is not certain even though Austria is winning by 2 points. :P Imperium Guy 15:47, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Why would Bharat help France in this war? It seems to be fairly pointless to send troops halfway around the world because of a dispute between two German states. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:46, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Because France has promised Bharat one of their African colony in exchange for control of Castille. :P Imperium Guy 16:10, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

USA
Right Dean's left the game and he's given me back control of the USA so I inherit the ICR too (as shown here on my talk page). However rather than me taking control of his nation I'm thinking we just getting rid of the ICR-USA union stuff from the past 2 turns and pretending it never happened would just be a better idea. Its quite implausible that stuff about the ICR joining the USA anyway. So that alright with you guys? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:51, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Fine by me. CrimsonAssassin 12:44, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'll take control of the union. Could I? :o Imperium Guy 15:57, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

No! Destroy the union! Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 16:00, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Calm down Doc!! :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 16:03, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well the USA was my former colony, then nation, and I gave it to Dean in hopes it'd make the game more interesting for him & keep him playing. But now he's left so its just easier to pretend I never gave him the USA, besides the union was quite implausible anyway. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:19, May 9, 2012 (UTC).

Myanmar

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength:
 * Motive: 5
 * Expansion:
 * Military Expansion:
 * Puppet States:
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Pegu

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength:
 * Puppet States:
 * Motive:
 * Expansion:
 * Military Expansion:
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Result
Myanma is the winner. This is just to make it official.

Discussion
A section for the war Myanmar started with Pegu to gain a seaport. Should be finished soon.

Yank 16:02, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Why hasn't anyone started the algorithm? I've already said I'm bad at making algorithms, and I would have thought the war would be over by now.

Yank 01:11, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues '95^(-1)
Not trying to single out nobody, or imply that you do this frequently, but, keep in mind that the tripled expansion only applies to black areas on the map before somebody goes complaining that i did not added their pixels.unless that the mod event in 1891 has something else that i missed on the last part.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:47, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Unless that i missed something.the last part of the mod event if 1891 was confusing. "by any Stage 3 industrialized nation of at least level industialization"? what it means?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:47, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

There are other errors. Some parts of Eesti Vabariik was to be sold to Russia. Unless Russia forgot or something (I know they didn't though). For the colour key, it's no longer Sweden-Finland. It's just Finland now. That's all. -Kogasa 17:50, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I forgot.and, what exactly happened to Finland-Sweden?for some reason, i figured out that it continued existing.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:57, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sweden collapsed in 1889, Emperor Aukusti Seppänen (Finnish Emperor of Sweden shortly before its fall) took control and renamed it into the Shogunate of Finland, and then soon gave power to his wife, now currently Empress, Yuyuko Seppänen. So basically, former Sweden is divided between Denmark and Finland. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 18:00, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have a complain. The three not-incivil-disarray itsaygahian states should be one, and the other should be part of the Caliphate of Itsaygahi. Also, Yemen and Persia should be both blue (or, I insist, the Claiphate and territories, brown). Castille is a vassal of Bharat,a nd all of the USG should be blue, as Rhineland (Alsace) joined it and took control. We still need a colour for Austria.--Galaguerra1 20:53, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

1 - yes./2 - i will fix it later./3 - What? he already has two vassals.having three is against the rules./4 - Rhineland wasn't your vassal/5 - i forgot, and i need to come up with another color.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:28, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

The Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha hasn't been expanded and Sokotara is part of the Caliphate now too. don't expand the USA any more to the east because the USA is encouraging on Finland's claims to OTL Venezuela. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:00, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Korea
Err, Korea has been removed from the Industrialization list.. please fix that please. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:19, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Rochefort Conference (1895)
Ok, I've made a map, showing my interests and what I think would be the possible claims of everyone in this conference. I've invited Hungary and Bharat, and forgotten to invite VIetnam, though I hope Yank will see this.

Ok, the two parts of Morocco coloniez by the Caliphate will become an independent protectorate, with the Caliph of Arabia as its Sultan. The former itsaygahian colony and vassals in Africa will remain as the Free State of New Tsalagi, with the Caliph of Itsaygahi as its Owner. I've also included the territories that I'll give up to Bharat if Imperium agrees to give me Castille.

Do any of you have complains or other things to make clear? --Galaguerra1 21:33, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

May I have claims at Morrocco and parts of Caliphate Western Sahara please? RandomWriterGuy 21:42, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * There are already three colonies at Morocco, no room for you. Plus, Persia cannot found another colony for a while. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:48, May 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * And all of western Sahara is part of Ezsák-Afrika.the remnat black territory is in OTL Mauritania.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:23, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia will back any of Bharat's claims. Italy doesn't care as long as no one interferes in Tunisia. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:48, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

I agree to this map.my only objection is that Ezsák-Afrika's borders on the north are a bit uneven, but is a small quantity of territory, just enough to get the eastern borders roughly the same height as the litoranean ones, as the central part looks like a depression, on geological terms.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:23, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Let me see if I've understood... you want more regular borders? --Galaguerra1 01:40, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm planning on having the Vietnamese unite Morocco under the control of Tangiers, which I plan on making a client state.

Yank 12:59, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Vietnam has been working in Morocco for far longer than the Caliphate. Plus, the Caliphate is already recieving a tremendous amount of land. They should give Vietnam the rest of Morocco. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:32, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, all of Morocco is yours, but I'd want to have some arabian trading posts on the moroccan coasts, so the Caliphate keeps contact with the muslim population of Morocco. But I don't think all of Morocco would agree to unite under a catholic republic. You should work on that. --Galaguerra1 16:31, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have two solutions to this problem. Either Tangiers slowly converts them into Christians or they establish freedom of religion. I could have it that the Tangierans don't care as long as their Catholic faith remains undisturbed.

Yank 17:48, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat agrees to the sale of Castille to France and is happy to recieve portions of their colony. They however do not agree to the Capilate giving so much land and would like a fairer division. :/ Imperium Guy 17:59, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

THis is a colonial conference, is not fair. The Caliphate will receive that amount of land (except for Tangiers and Morocco), and I still don't think the moroccan could convert to christianism, as Tangiers is the catholic republic sorrounded by islammic fundamentalists. Freedom of religion seems to be the better thing, but there will still be people who dislikes this. I'll make a map. --Galaguerra1 21:00, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

I just want more land for Bharat, not anyone else. Please remember all nations act with their own interests at heart, not anyone else and there are very few expections (for me supporting Dravidia at all costs). Here is a map of what I want in the claims. :P Imperium Guy 21:25, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have had colonies in Africa for centuries now, and most people there is muslim and ethnicly influenced by the french. I have stronger claims, and I think is implausible that every country gets an equal part in such a partition. The Caliphate is imperialist, and while you have colonies almost everywhere, the Caliphate just has the algerian-libyan colony, that is older than any state that currently occupies India. The Caliphate just has the storngest claim on Africa, by culture, antiquity, influence, etc... Also, I assume you jsut didn't realize that, if we follow your map's proposition, the Caliphate would have no room to expand anymore and you would be free to keep colonizing all of Africa. --Galaguerra1 00:47, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

It would not be implausible to suggest that the long-lasting Vietnamese presence in part of Morocco could have resulted in large amounts of Christian converts in the rest, especially once the recent Spanish and Hungarian colonies are factored in. Meanwhile, the Caliphate already has a lot of room to expand in, it will be hard enough for them to take over all of that territory. Plus, they can always attack Darfur, and expand into the area south fo Egypt. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

The "new" map still places Tangiers within Arabia's portion. I plan on making Tangiers a Spanish-Morroccan hybrid country. I have two requests to ask of the community at large. Yank 02:15, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) What should be the demonym for Tangiers?
 * 2) Can someone provide me with a flag fusing the Spanish flag with the Morrocan flag?

Taiwan

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical advantage: 0
 * Nations: Taiwan (LV), Vietnam (M), Kenia (MV), Britain (MV), New Lithuania (MV), Nippon (M), Chamoru (MV), Finland (M), Eesti Vabariik (SV), Shogunate of Kōshi (M), Republic of Kazami (MV), Italy (M), Switzerland (SV), Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha (M), Australia (M) : 36
 * Puppet States:0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance:
 * Time:2*3*7=42
 * Edit Count: 8349
 * 8349/42*pi=624.50374
 * Stability: 16.1^1.25/1.25^16.1*2.5*7=15
 * Current Total: 66

Korea

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical advantage: 1
 * Nations: Korea (L), Russia (M), South Africa (S), Persia (M), Iroquois (SV):13
 * Puppet States:0
 * Military Development: 6
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 6 (social/moral)
 * Chance: 4
 * Time:1*7*4*4=112
 * Edit Count: 5057
 * 5057/112*pi= 141.84
 * Stability: 12.4^1.25/1.25^12.4*2.5*8=29
 * Total:62

Result
Narrow Vietnamese victory

Discussion
Expansion -10? how this happened? colonial expansion does not count as expansion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:05, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Russia will send volunteer units(Soldiers that volunteer to help korea, so that they will not be forced to do this) from each of their vassals/puppets in Eurasia, the rest(Novorossiya, South Africa, Iroquois) will help by sending various supplies.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:28, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't? And yet how has that affected me in the last war? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:17, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but, if colonial expansion doesn't count like expansion, then, what does count as expansion? That's the only kind of expansion I know. --Galaguerra1 01:16, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Expansion by any means other than through colonial expansion (such as through wars, vassalizing/absorbing states, expanding without colonial expansion into the black areas of the map). France has expanded a great deal through means other than colonial expansion. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:15, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Notice to everyone making their own algorithms: copy and past an old algorithm into a new edit window, and change all the information to the new war. I've done that for months. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:37, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, how Malouinas is supporting both?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:24, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Add Australian Kingdom too, please ;P Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 13:03, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

The way I see it neither side is going to end up having a considerable atvantage in the post-war negotiations. The only way I can see this ending is with status quo ante bellum.

Yank 13:07, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

I took Malouinas out from both sides. who is supporting both sides is a company based in Malouinas, not the local government.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:39, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

I say that colonial expansion counts as expansion, because it has affected my last war, and it should, IMO. Just my two cents. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 15:38, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Also, that is the reason that I haven't expanded colonies in the last couple decades... I thought that it would be negative for me in my wars... PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 15:39, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Kenny established months ago that colonial expansion didn't count. This entire game hasn't had sufficent colonial expansion as it is, so it would be foolish for us to put any limit like that in place. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:47, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Meh I must have been inactive when he announced that... :( The reason that I invaded in the first place was because I saw that Taiwan's user was simply copy-pasting ever year (They've bought Sweden's colony like 25 times now lol) so I assumed that it would be a critical part in the war. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs)

Look, Taiwan is a Vietnamese puppet. both are controlled by the same user.

Ooh... Lol... I didn't know that I thought that Vietnam was simply sticking their nose into Taiwan because they were the "Defenders of the Universe" lol.. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 16:01, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that the war is over. I'll forgo any territorial gains to have the war end as quickly as possible.

Yank 02:01, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

USA

 * Location: 3
 * Tactical advantage: 1
 * Nations: USA (L), Nippon (M), the Commonwealth of Eetoria & Ngainkeha (M), Sunda (M) : 13
 * Military Development: 5
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: 6
 * Chance: ??>
 * Time: 09:37
 * Edit Count: 3,697
 * 189/3,697= 0.051122531
 * 0.051122531*pi=0.160606167; hundredths digit= 6
 * Final: 6
 * Stability: 26
 * Participation: 10
 * Total: 65

Muisca

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical advantage: 0
 * Nations: Muisca (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance: 2 (RWG)
 * Stability: 25
 * Participation: 10
 * Current Total: 56

Result
USA victory, the USA can take ((65/(65+56))*2)-1 = 7% of Muisca territory.

So of Muisca's 2011 pixels, the USA gets to annex 141 pixels.

Discussion
Is the stability done in the same way for NPCs too? If not, then what do I do? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:21, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is.and the state's name is Muisca.Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:05, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Cheers Collie :)

Seeing the US victory, can the USA annex 7% of Muisca and make the remaining Muiscan state a puppet state of the USA, or can it only take the 7%? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:12, May 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Only 7%. For it to be a puppet, you must have at least around 32-34% in order to overthrow the government (I think). -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:14, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kogasa is right. If you spend the next several years (like 5-6) pressuring the Muisca Confederation with threats of violence, and then maybe sold its territory back after that, they might agree to become a vassal. But not right after the war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:20, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well guess I'll besiege & threaten Muisca for a few years after the war until they agree to become a vassal. Thanks for your help guys :) <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:27, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia

 * Location: 2
 * Tactical advantage: 1
 * Nations: Dravidia (L) :4
 * Puppet States:0
 * Military Development: 1
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:
 * Time:1*9*5*9=405
 * Edit Count: 4100
 * 4100/405*pi=31.80
 * Stability: 4.5^1.25/1.25^4.5*2.5*8=48
 * Current Total: 60

Kongo

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical advantage: 0
 * Nations: Kongo (L), Ngoyo(MV):6
 * Puppet States:0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 6
 * Stability: 40.6^1.25/1.25^40.6*2.5*7=0
 * Total:22

Result
Dravidia destroys Kongo. ((60/82)*2)-1=46.34%. The war will last 3 years, so Dravidia will take (46.34)*(1-1/(6))=38.61%, enough to topple the government of Kongo and Ngoyo and annex both nations easily.

Discussion
Next time, just add Bharat helping you as that is what I would do! ;D Imperium Guy 22:00, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Dravidia won this war so easy, it wouldn't be worth the Bharati troops. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:18, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

World Religion Map
Has anyone made progress on a map of the world's religions?

Yank 02:55, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

I tried like back when it was 1740 or so, but gave up. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:56, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

RandomWriterGuy
I think we need to do something about RandomWriterGuy. I swear he lives in his own little bubble, where common sense and reality have no effect on him or Persia. I may copy and paste my posts, but RWG makes virtually no effort to adapt to what other users are doing.

Yank 04:14, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Lol is he the user who changed the name of his colony 6 times? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 20:35, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Leave him alone, its not like hes realy hurting anything. Besides, we all try to do whatever we can to make our countires better, and dont deny it. DeanSims 20:37, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Its the fact he doesn't take notice of anyone else's posts what's annoying. Converting this game into a timeline is going to be interesting when we have to iron out all the contradictions lol <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:12, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Von is right about his problem, but he didn't do anything bad enough to warrant a ban. Anyways, DeanSims, many players have revolutions and stuff in their nation, I've actually had economic depressions in mine, so some people do more than just try to make their nations stronger/more liberal. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:40, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

But I just put in just religious conflict stuff in my turns. Does it count? RandomWriterGuy 04:13, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Russia/Berlin

 * location:4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Berlin(L)/Russia(M)/Poland-Lithuania-Belarus(M)/Iroquois Confederation(MV)/Novorossiya(M(V???ex-colony))/South Africa(S(V?? ex-colony))/Armenia(MV)/Others: 17-19
 * Puppet States: -1
 * Military developement: 9
 * Expansion: 0
 * Social/Moral: 6
 * Chance:
 * stability:
 * Total: 37/39+Stability+Chance

UGS

 * location:4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * UGS(L), France(M), Flanders(MV), Castille (MV), Navarre(MV?), Austria(M): 14/16
 * Puppet States: -1
 * Military developement: 8
 * Expansion: -1/-2
 * Life or death: 10
 * Chance:
 * stability:
 * Total: 34/36+Stability+Chance

Discussion
Ex-colonies are not puppet states as long as the nation that used to rule them no longer has any influence over their government. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:54, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

They are supporting Russia so I supose they are puppets or at least russian influenced. --Galaguerra1 01:47, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Did they give any reason why they are supporting Russia? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:19, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Russia controls their alliances and Military actions...that is all...and wait...whitch nation controls the USG???? I thought it was an NPC, its greyed on the map and it has no user in the signup-Lx (leave me a message) 10:56, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

If they control their alliances and military, they are indeed puppet states. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:03, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I control the USG, that just wasn't shown in the previous map. --Galaguerra1 16:43, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Then Cancel this whole affair, or change Russia and fighting whatever other German States are Still Left(excluding Austria). I thought that it was an NPC, I had no intention in starting a war with another user... IT wasnt shown on the other map...sorry.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:29, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Map Updates
LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:00, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Tangiers is now under the Vietnamese sway, so presumably it will now be a puppet state of Vietnam
 * 2) Italy sold half of the Borneo part of Pahang to Brunei in return for the Singapore Islands, just divide it in half with the eastern half being the one to join Brunei.
 * I will do it.next map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:07, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Also why does the Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha never seem to be updated? Its not been expanded again. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:09, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I expanded it, but it was only once. sorry for forgetting the other times.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:07, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you expand it some more to make up for lost times? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:29, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

What about Austria and the things I did recently. -Althistoryman11.
 * I still need to invent a color for you.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:07, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah ok I was just wondering-Althistoryman11
 * Oh and don't forget to add my colony in Austrailia.

Also I sold the promised territory to Bharat (see above), or at least, the territory I currently posses, with all claims, and Adal has absorbed all of the black territory south of it. Kanada now is in union with Novo-Armannak, and two state sof Itsaygahi remain not being updated,a s they are part of Itsaygahi. --Galaguerra1 01:44, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * You said that you had expanded, and i assumed that it wasn't all./Where is Novo-Armannak?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:07, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Former Nouvelle-France, OTL Nova Scotia. --Galaguerra1 17:18, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

The land the Eesti Vabariik sold to Russia is still not shown... -Kogasa 02:13, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I forgot again.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:07, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Collie, yeah I am bothering again, but here is how Bharat's claims should be on the map: I haven't added Castille as a French puppet as I don't know which state it is. Please remember it Collie. :D Imperium Guy 21:17, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

i am not noticing. claims where?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:23, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

And Also, This map fails to mention the KAzakh Partition between the Uzbekhs and the KAzakhs loyal to russia.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:30, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

How it should be?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:29, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Andalucia

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical advantage: 1
 * Nations: Andalucia (L) :4
 * Puppet States:0
 * Military Development: 2
 * Expansion: -0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance:6
 * Time:1*6*5*9=270
 * Edit Count: 3632
 * 3632/270*pi=42.26
 * Stability: 1.2^1.25/1.25^1.2*2.5*7=16
 * Current Total: 36

Vietnam

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical advantage: 2 (attacked from the Sea)
 * Nations: Vietnam (L), Taiwan(MV), Myanmar (MV), Tangiers(MV), Kenia(MV) Italy (M), Swizerland (MV), Calora (MV), Dravidia (M), France (M), UGS (MV), Caliphate (M), Shogunate of Kōshi (M), Republic of Kazami (MV), Hungary (M): 38
 * Puppet States:-2
 * Military Development: 14
 * Expansion: -2
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * 1*7*3=21
 * 8454 edits
 * 8454/21*pi=1,264.71
 * Stability:11.8^1.25/1.25^11.8*2.5*8=31
 * Total:88

Result
Crushing Vietnamese victory. Vietnam at most can take ((88/(88+36)*2)-1=41.93% of Andalucia. Vietnam can decide how long the war lasts.

Discussion
What year did Vietnam have their last major government change? I need their stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:54, May 18, 2012 (UTC) The last major givernment change was that a minor Vietnamese noble inherited the crown in 1785. --Yank 18:38, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

In order to overthrow the government with the current amount of points, Vietnam will need the war to last three years, because (41.93)*(1-1/(2*3))=34.94. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:40, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

We need a World War I
Ok, we're getting close to the 1910's and the World Wars era. We need something like a World War I. We made a sort of short Napoleonic Wars like 40 after the OTL Napoleonic Wars were finished.I wouldnt liket o have the World War I around the 1950's, so we need an event to start a world wide crisis and lead us to the World War II. --Galaguerra1 18:53, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

The main reasons for why OTL world wars started cannot exist in this timeline, therefore there is no reason for world wars to happen at the same time as they did in OTL. If it happens it happens, but I don't think we should just force one out to make things more like OTL <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:08, May 19, 2012 (UTC).

I agree. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:29, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

I have a thought. Russia vs France for control over Germany is why WWI starts. Hey WWI was because empires wanted more land. It could and eventually will happen here as well. We add the unrest in China into the equation, expansion in the continents and nations wanting dominence and things begin to look really interesting... ;D Imperium Guy 09:13, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Of course there is a possibility for a world war, I just don't think we should force one out for the sake of forcing one out. Besides atl has had its fair share of wars for sure, so if it happens it happens, but we shouldn't make players go to war if they don't want to. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:06, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really want a giant war, because that would delay colonization, and we are already severely behind as it is. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:21, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly think we should have retconned the 19th century and allow for much faster expansion. CrimsonAssassin 13:16, May 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Every time there was thatlarge a recount it completely killed the game in question. What we should do is just make the colonial claims part of the nation and then settle them later(as was done in OTL), forcefuly or willingly.-Lx (leave me a message) 14:26, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I support the WWI. Something huge like this would be great. Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 14:23, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Of course, due to the alliance system, half of the wars between player nations have become Worldwide wars already. We had several problems with colonization:
 * 1) We should have given European/Asian/African nations a huge bonus when first colonizing the Americas due to the diseases
 * 2) We should have not tied expansion to the number of colonies, as this made it so nations would have lots of small colonies instead of a few large ones.
 * 3) We should have given larger bonuses than the ones given, *1.5 does barely anything, *15 would have been better.
 * 4) We should not have had so many NPC nations randomly appear in South America and Africa, as that just increased the difficulty of expansion

LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:19, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with the fourth, first and second.this c ould be done from 1540 on, but only in North America, true, and not only appeared nations (the inland Namibian nations, Muisca, Ge nations, the lakes nation), but they also expanded out of control (such as Manoa and Onguayal), some came out on the wrong place (Zululand).However, i disagree with the third.is already difficult to keep up updating such numbers with all those bonuses, a "multiplication by 15" bonus would make mapmaking impossible.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:15, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

What could be a good solution for that? Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 15:59, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well, expansion will generally spped up after 1910... :/ Imperium Guy 16:12, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

A good solution in other map games would be to have colonial expansion be tied to the time a nation has owned the colony, so older colonies can expand faster. A slight increase in expansion rates would help as well, as would huge bonuses for colonizing the Americas and large bonuses starting in 1870 (larger than just the *1.5 thing). An additional problem with the colony number thing was that if a nation gave any of its colonies independence, it sacrificed colonial growth. Quite honestly, the number of colonies would not matter at all in real life. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:25, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

We do need a WWI event, to start ane ventual WWII. I think you all agree with the words of Sebastian Haffner: "Whatever we like it or dislike it, the world of today is a result of Hitler". If we don't have a Hitler, we'll continue the XX century even during the current days. --Galaguerra1 21:09, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but Germany hasn't been unified into an empire to allow itself to be humiliated. We could always use a French Hitler or something if you want... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:29, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't ahve to be OTL german Hitler. We've got a lot of multiethnic empires like OTL Austria-Hungary (like Arabia, Bharat, China, Hungary itself, Vietnam, Japan) and a Hitler could rise in any of those. He doesn't ahve to be german and hate the jewish. He could be a danish who hates finnish, for example. A state that has been pretty humiliated in ATL (don't feel ofended, please) is Korea, in fact, or even Persia. --Galaguerra1 01:21, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe China, as they are collapsing presently. Ethiopia has fallen quite a bit too, but it's been too long for anything to arise from them. Hanthawaddy restabilized as Bengal too short a time ago. Spain has been divided and humiliated, but they seem too weak to do any damage. Same for the remnants of Turkey currently being ruled over by Greece. In fact, Sweden would be a perfect case, once one of the strongest empires, they've now been broken apart, and ruled over by those they once oppressed (Danish and Finns). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:31, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

China underwent a dynasty change. They'll be back on their feet soon. CrimsonAssassin 04:08, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

But the new dynasty could be more expansionist and warlike, especially since they are going to lose some territory in the transition. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:39, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

They called for some areas to be independent. I don't see them throwing a fit. Besides, the dynasties are over. CrimsonAssassin 15:26, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't play Prinicipia Moderni, but there's very important thing to do it.
Don't forget when in this map game radio and television would be created. Wijata Mateusz 16:37, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Singapore Islands
The Singapore Islands, all three including that large one, which are currently owned by Brunei on the map, are Italian now. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:25, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Principia Moderni Mark II
Seeing as Principia Moderni is entering it's final century, would any of you sign on to play on a hypothetical Principia Moderni Mark II? Especially if we take the effort to iron out the flaws in the colonization system? I would play as Japan, which was going to be my first choice.

Yank 16:56, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I would, and I'd be playing as a Thai kingdom if there will be a PM Mark II. -Kogasa 17:00, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Me too.i would be playing as Portugal.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:05, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

It shouldn't be made until after this one is done, but I'll play. Probably as Ireland, Scotland, or one of the native American nations (like Tsalagi or Muscogee). LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:11, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also I have a map of about 1450 I made for another game, which can easily have a few things changed to be 1450 in real life. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:11, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with only making it after this one is complete.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:16, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have a map, I only have a few questions first: LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:00, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) How should city-states or small states be portrayed? Nations like the Mayas, the Irish, and the Swahili are not unified nations, but are "civilized". Currently I have them the same as civil disarray, but I want to know if they should be kept as the dark grey, made black (like other tribes), or given some other designation.
 * 2) Should there be labels on the main map? Currently I have labels, but I could make a version labelless if needed. Labels do look messy and can interfere with coastlines, but currently we have a lot of "X nation invades the small country under it". Should we have both labelled and unlabelled versions (labelled being updated less frequently)?
 * 3) (assuming that we will have a labelled version) Should major unorganized tribes have labels on the map?
 * 4) What constitutes an organized, developed nation or small states? Would the various North American natives be counted, or not?

Definitely, though I am debating whether to be China or England.

I will be Korea again, and I won't let my colonial empire be taken apart by *others* cough cough Vietnam hehe. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:58, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to play as Venice, England or even some spanish or arabian state like Castille or Aragon. I think not-unified nations should ave a different border than unified nations and colonies, so we disitnguish them. On alabelled map, we should put the name of major uncivilized tribes to make them "civilizable and playable". Obviously a developed nation is a group of peoples that have somehow a centralized system. The european nations have mostly king and comon institutions. Others like the irish just have periodic alliances during time of crisis. Others, like the League of Mayapan, the mpauche Wallmapu, some asian khanates, are simply permanent or periodic confederations of civilzied tribes that unify under a common institution of even a person during times of crisis. May be not-confederated but civilized tribes should be distinguished from the confederated ones. Such as the League of Mayapan should be distinguished from the rest of not-unified maya tribes.--Galaguerra1 21:55, May 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * So what should the difference be between Civil Disarray, Loose Confederations, Civilized Tribes, City-States, etc.? Specifically. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:05, May 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll have fun with Making the Novgorodian State dominate moscow in this new one.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:20, May 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes I would love to Play a Second Principia, Im sad I missed out on all the fun.-Althistoryman11


 * A state in civil disarray is that state that is, in theory, organized, but in civil war, as warlords are struggling for the dominion; Africa is full of examples, a state in civil war would be the same, a state in a succesion war, a state with a provisional unestable government. A confederation is a group of tribes that unite in case of war or share some common institution, like a parliament, and example is the Rouran Khanate in Asia, the mapuche Wallmapu in South America, maybe the Iroquois Confederacy even. City-states and civilized tribes are cgroups of people that are culturaly and ethnicly alike, but are not confederated, usually they have conflcit with each other, the difference is that; while tribes are contered in a cultural core (tribe, family, clan, etc...) and primitive; city-state are just organized states, but smaller, and centered around a geographical/political core, and they have an orgnaized government, a capital and could have colonies and form city-state confederations (like the Aetolian League in OTL Greece). --Galaguerra1 01:12, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * But how would they be on the map? (currently Confederations are marked the same as unified nation-states, and city-states and civil disarray are the same). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:32, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe different borders. Confederaitons wouldm have a blue borde ror something like that and the city-states and tribes would have golden borders? I don't know, something like that whould work. --Galaguerra1 01:37, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Different borders worked for colonies here, that is true. The unsettled tribes I currently just have as their names in the middle of the black areas. I'll upload the current map as it stands, for 1450.
 * Principia_Moderni_2_1450.png added Manoa and Onguayal for tradition's sake, the first moderator event can be made by them.
 * Also, I suggest we use the format of this game, instead of the Fractured America format that almost all other games currently use, simply because it annoys me. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:43, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact I've invented a system that I think would work, be cause so many times I've seen people arguing about who invented what weapon, or that obtain 500 thousand kilos of gold is a plausible benefit but it doesn't have any benefit in the system. My system bases on points and its used in Orbis Terrarum, the Map Game I currently run with Jaeden CC (previously Burgundy) in the spanish Althist wiki. We have economic points (denarii, though I supose they should be called ducats in this gam, or somethng like that) that are equal to a specific cuantity of gold, and we use them for build up military, trade, aument our expansion rate, fund independent explorers of scientifics (moderator events), fund rebellions abroad, or trade them for investigation points, that we use to develop technology. Does some of you undestarnd spanish? So you could read the system in the page "Puntuación (Orbis Terrarum)". If you don't I'll graldy traduce the system to show you how it works. --Galaguerra1 01:52, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I also think the Holy Roman Empire should have different borders, as it's composed by many different states and those state could striggle the crown. --Galaguerra1 01:53, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand Spanish enough to figure the system out, I hope it won't be overly complicated (then again, a complicated game could have fewer and more competent players). I'll read up on it. On the HRE, I am going to think of a way, maybe I'll go with your idea with the different colored border, or use dotted borders or thinner borders for the states inside it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:03, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll end up reprising my role as China. Trying to kill the Mongols will be a challenge with the algorithm, but it can be done. I'd like to go more in-depth with China's interior. CrimsonAssassin 03:43, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll play as France. Making a huge worldwide empire can be a challenge, but may be worth it. BTW, for the HRE, is it possible you can take the position (you know, like Charles V)? RandomWriterGuy 04:16, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I, as you all know, am an India fanatic so I'll take the Dehli sultanate. However, things won't be like what they seem, and I don't plan to have a mughal empire! ;D [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 08:10, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll be Oman in the next game, but whatever happened to making this game into a timeline? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:20, May 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Did you know that Oman actually had an empire in the 18th/19th Century but stupid emperors led to its downfall. It was so bad that there was a communist rebellion in the early 70s. Read the to get what I mean. :P --[[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 10:34, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

OK, for the new map, I gave the HRE borders which were blue and grey mixed, and the smaller states inside I gave thinner borders than normal. On the subject of the HRE, would people play as the individual states, or the empire itself? LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:37, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Individual states. In the vidogame Europa Universalis III In Nomine, the member sof the HRE are independent, but electors can appoint an Emperor and these EMperros can make laws that affect the whole empire, intervene somehow in politics, accept new members of the Empire and appoint new electors. I'm considering to play as England an ghet the throne of the HRE, or even make Venice a members of the Empire. I don't know. But I think I'll decide soon. --Galaguerra1 16:48, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I read the system on the Spanish wiki, and it seems good, so if you could translate that when we actually make the game, that would be good. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:00, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'd be glad to do so. Thank you. --Galaguerra1 22:27, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think I should play as China instead. RandomWriterGuy 22:32, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if you're trolling me or being serious. I already called China. CrimsonAssassin 22:47, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

I made a draft of a first post in my userspace: Principia Moderni II. I will make a draft of the rules later so that we can work out all the new colonization and whatnot. Also I am going to update the map (again). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:20, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I've decided for England, and Jaeden says me that he'll join as Castille. I'll make a draft for my system. There are some things I need to ask you about it. --Galaguerra1 01:24, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

On the map you missed the iroquois civilization, as it did technicaly have one "Parliment" consisting of the top chieftains of each of the 5(and later 6) nations-Lx (leave me a message) 01:29, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I will add them, for some reason I thought they had formed later, but I checked and they had definately formed by 1450, though their origins before that are indeed unknown. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:59, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

We should have it where expansion doubles in 1650, triples in 1700, quadruples in 1800, and quintuples in 1850. CrimsonAssassin 03:06, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I have a draft of the rules up: Rules (Principia Moderni II) We will need to add and change a lot of stuff. As for the expansion, here is an idea I had: With several extra modifiers: Is this good? LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:06, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are using a half-turn, you get half the expansion
 * If the colony itself is younger than 5 years, it can only expand by 200 square kilometers, regardless of any bonuses
 * If a colony itself is older than 50 years, a bonus +100 square km is given for expansion in that colony
 * If a colony is older than 150 years, a bonus +500 square km is given for expansion in that colony
 * When areas of the Americas are first contacted by people from Eurasia or Africa, that region that is contacted will have double the colonial expansion rates from those outside nations. Regions contacted in the first 50 years since first contact will have trippled expansion.
 * Additional bonuses will be recieved with industrialization, and other bonuses may arrive later.
 * Expansion into areas which are fragmented (in civil disarray or small states) can be done through colonial expansions, at half the normal rates. Expansion into gray areas requires an algorithm

Also, another idea I had was restricting players to only being able to control one of their former colonies, thus the former colony would get its own, new color instead of using the part nation's color, as that was sort of confusing with having independent nations the same colors as others. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:50, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree with this policy of only controlling one of your former colonies, but agree with the new colour change though. Basically because we lack an AI to control non-player nations (which is usually present in video games for stuff like this). So in order to make the game be as perfectly competitive as possible we shouldn't bother with this rule, otherwise we just risk having NPC nations dominating the game, and leading us to the same problems as we have in this game --<font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC).

I've amde the proposal for my additions to the system here:. It's based on Orbis Terrarum's, but not the same. I hope you'll find it to be useful for this game. --Galaguerra1 20:34, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the spelling (it's liberator, not libertier, English is a messed-up language). For the proposal, my main concern is with the popularity thing, how can we determine how popular a nation's actions are with its people? Because everyone will say that their people all love the system to get the most popularity. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:37, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I agree, english is messed-up, and sometimes I just confuse. Anyway, for the popularity and loyalty things, we should have a single mode to that, so the mod could decide based on the system of government, recent actions of the government, etc... And a second mod who would wield the main moderator's powers when the first one is involved in the war or absent. If both are involved or absent, people should vote. Also, I trust in the player's plausibility on this matters. --Galaguerra1 01:19, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Are there no complaints about the colonization system? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:36, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's good. --Galaguerra1 02:42, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I like this new system and I find it easier to understand. Hope to play the next game as Russia, unless that's already taken. Maybe Brandenburg then. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:55, May 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * I already claimed russia...sorry...I want to reprise my role, but this time have it dominated by Novgorod instead of Moscow.-Lx (leave me a message) 11:54, May 24, 2012 (UTC)


 * You guys could always have 2 Russian states fighting over control of OTL Russia like Novogorod vs Moscow, but continue it for ages. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:25, May 24, 2012 (UTC).

Also, I had one question that I have pondered over for a while. In the rules for chance it says: "Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3)." Why would there be such a strange rule? Yes, I understand that it produces a very random number. Really one of the strangest things I've ever seen, yet it is very ingenious. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 03:05, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

The rule is so that people cannot complain that the Random Number Generator is unfair, like they do in many other games. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:08, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

I gree with changing the colour of newly independnt colonies, but, if we just leave them to be NPC nations, being sincere, the nearby player nations will devour them. Also, I want to make it clear: The traveling system I propose only applies to 1450's technology, so, at 1800, you could travel more distance for less money, is the technology is invented.

I think economic points should allow a nation to aument its territorial or military expansion rate. --Galaguerra1 16:11, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

If the second game works like the first, we should have no problem. Romainia and Moldova have sat for centuries undisturbed and unconquered. Nations that fought for their freedom from colonialism are going to be less likely to allow themselves to be subjugated again, and having to deal with constant revolts of your annexed territory will cause a nation so much problems it wouldn't be worth it. We cannot allow everyone to control every single independent colony and still give them all a new color. There aren't enough distinct colors. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:44, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

So, is it concluded that you will only be able to control one former colony at a time? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:56, May 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally, I would like it if we get to control all our former colonies, and them being a lighter colour from the original nation. I liked it better with former colonies having a lighter colour from the original nation and I understand it would get confusing and complex. I don't know, kinda would discourage having colonies a bit, maybe. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:42, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just plain confusing though, especially once the former colonies start building colonial empires of themselves and having their own vassals and whatnot. Plus it makes posts really long, and in the end people have 7 nations or more. I am thinking of adding a colonial empire bonus to the algorithm to encourage more colonization. The problem with the lighter color was that it is also the same color as puppet states. Having only 1 former colony to be controlled at a time could then let that colony have its own color, so no confusion, and would result in shorter posts, which would probably make it easier to make maps and would definately make it easier to make algorithms. And it would give more opportunity for new players to join. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:00, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * We could make it so that the colonies that declared independence won't have their own colonial empires (but they can only hold on/take care of the mother nations colonies if the mother nation is in trouble or something.) While it may make posts really long, at least it can prevent from unexpected events happening to them (ie Satori gives independence to Rin and Utsuho. Rin is still controlled by the player but Utsuho isn't. Since Satori had undergone a transition from Buddhist to Hindu for years and two of her former colonies, Rin and Utsuho are both Hindu. But then an event happens where Utsuho is all slowly converted back to Buddhist all of a sudden, and Hindu becomes minority. Or, after Utsuho is taken by another player then the new player turns Utsuho into a Confucianist state, etc.). And I see, well if we allow the new players to ask permission from a person who happens to control two of their former colonies, the new player can always ask for said person if it's okay to control one of their former colony, and the player can agree. We have that system here, so I personally think it would be good if we could have it in the new game as well. Like I said, I understand that it's all confusing and takes up much space and causes problems for the map makers; but at least the players who play their colonies can ensure that random events (ie the example I gave above) won't happen: and they can always give a new player their colony to control if they want. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 13:31, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

We do need something like a colony bonus, because at it stands colonies don't contribute anything to the mother country's war effort. However we should keep the system of players controlling former colonies until a new player comes in to take them over, otherwise we risk having too many NPCs, which is a worse problem than having former states controlled by past players, as their is reduced game play. Plus I think that we should be able to have more colonies too. On the point of having too many countries with the same colour, we could always just add a numerical reference on the map rather than just relying on colours. The way I see it, people use independent states as a means of boosting their scores in the algorithms (hence they're aren't too many countries which don't get on with their former masters) so we need to encourage players to keep colonies opposed to giving them independence & being pally with the former rulers. Hence I rate we treat colonies like we do vassals in the algorithm <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC).

How are NPCs a problem? The number of players would stay the same. And I do not understand what you are talking about Kogasa with unexpected events happening. Players can and have done just as many random events with their own nations. If the new players come on and do something random and implausible, their actions will be crossed out. Moderators should not cause random moderator events that are implausible. Furthermore, voluntarily giving another player control of your former colony that you now have no influence over does nothing to prevent them from making those same events happen. With numerous nations all being the same color as puppet states or colonies they would be and have been in this game times when there has been confusion among the players as to who controls what area. There have quite literally been wars on this map game that have been mistakenly caused or escalated due to the fact that people did not know who was independent and who was not. Confusion damages the gameplay. Labels work, but to do a label system that could fix that, massive amounts of parentheses would be needed to label nations such as "The Phillipines (Vassal of the United States (former colony of Britain))". Plus, the question of what former colonies of former colonies will look like, and puppet states of former colonies, has not been determined. Numerous other successful map games have had the rule in which a player can control no former colonies. Encouraging people to keep colonies instead of granting them independence creates and implausible game like Axis vs. Allies 2 where colonization never ended, or it would otherwise result in everyone granting all their colonies independence at the very last moment. Finally, it is implausible to state that a nation will be weaker in a war and unable to establish any colonies simply because it was once a colony itself. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:51, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Do we really need each player controlling 8 different nations anyways? I know that it is hard for me to divide my time and attention between all of my nations, and a lot are neglected because it is hard to roleplay that many nations. 2 long quality posts is better than 6 short ones Plus, you all don't know how hard it is to count up all of the times of expansion and military development and who is helping who in the war when there are hundreds and hundreds of lines by people with 5 nations each all posting stuff. Poor Collie has to count up every single nation's colonial expansion for the past 5 years for each map. That is probably at least a thousand lines to go through, and even more are being made every day as more nations become independent. We moderators are only humans after all. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:05, May 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, as long as a player gives a new player permission to play as their former colony, then they can do whatever they want with it. Sorry if I wasn't being too clear. Also I never said that a mother nation would be able to keep all colonies, of course most of colonies would be given independence (and mod events could enforce that too if needed) and they can only keep a few colonies that are about the size of OTL French Guiana or less. Also the colours of former colonies of former colonies can remain the same, and so on...
 * Anyway, I just though that having people control former colonies would be able to ensure that their way they made the nation would stay the same and if they wanted to give a nation to a new player, they can do so and let them do what they want with the nation that was given to them. And while personally I'm against being able to control only one, instead of all, of my former colony, I'm fine with whatever the desition comes to be. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 20:07, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I had been responding to Von Glusenberg, who stated that we should try and encourage people to keep colonies for longer instead of having a bunch be independent to boost the algorithm. Nations do change slowly over time, but massive changes would be implausible without a good reason. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:22, May 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * It is well if you don't want to play all your former coolonies, so don't play them, but I really enjoy controlling every nation, giving them all a different history. --Galaguerra1 20:48, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that's not what I meant. I meant that I preferred to play all my former colonies, and I liked that better. However I then said that I don't mind what the desition would come out to be, even though I don't really like the idea of controlling only one colony. Sorry for my unclear English... -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 20:58, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still say that it is confusing to play the game with so many player-controlled nations, and it is very difficult to moderate and most likely to mapmake for all of that as well. Perhaps we could say that you could only play as one former colony at a time. So, for example, in real life the British player could play as America and Britain until the 1920s, then drop America and play as Egypt until the 1940s when they start playing as India. So you could still have variety and give your nations more history, but only 2 would be played as and have colors at the same time, so it would be easier to moderate and mapmake. This would also encourage people to make the independence process gradual instead of all at once, so they could have equal time with each former colony. Having each player control 7 nations is very complicated though. If the game was like real life, the player of Britain would end up controlling 20 nations by the end! LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:22, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the idea, controlling a former colony one at a time. Good enough for me, I accept. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 21:39, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I'm not convinced, but, If you aren't disposed to yield, well, I accept that. But I'd still prefer to play all of them, or, at least, the ones I'd like to play with. --Galaguerra1 22:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll put it in the rules for now. We have about a year until colonies would become independent in the second game anyways, so if we decide to change something or someone has a new idea, we can come up with it then. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:17, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * When I say we should encourage colonization, I means as opposed to making loads of vassal & puppet states and independent nations because at the end of the day colonies contribute nothing to algorithm scores at the moment, so people are less inclined to make colonies. And too many NPCs is a problem. For example think about how many countries would be NPCs in the current game if we made all former colonies NPCs? We'd lose so much creativity and content, which has gone from these former colonies. If they'd become NPCs then we would not have the world we have in 1912. I'd estimate nearly half of the past 50 year's content has involved former colonies controlled by their former master's player. And you want to throw that away? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:39, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am thinking of further reducing the amount of action of puppet states. Plus, if there were less independent colonies, people could concentrate on their main nations more. And you are ignoring my massive arguments about how it is extremely difficult to moderate, make maps, make algorithms, and the various other actions necessary for the game to function, actions which you do not need to perform. Add in the confusion that this has caused and will cause in the future. And add in the fact that these problems are only going to get worse. I think that these problems outweigh the benefits, and we can get by with still having twice the number of nations on most map games. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:33, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have the solution for this vassals/puppets problem. In my new map game, players have to play as their colonies and vassals, however, it is all supposed to be compiled into one long post. That avoids the confusion for colonies and vassals. However, puppet nations should be played seperately since they are not really controlled by that nation.


 * Example: I intend to/ will  play as Brandenburg in Mk II, so let's say I have a colony, New Leipzig, a vassal state, Lesser Germany, and a puppet state, Hohenzollernia. I write something like this: "Brandenburg: The New Leipzig colony is expanded by x sq km in directions y and z. Meanwhile the vassal state of Lesser Germany continues to help in the fight against Bohemia, respecting their vassalism. Also, the emperor instructs the Hohenzollernians to invade Southern Bohemia and take the crucial city of w. He also learns that around Hohenzollernia's colony of Wihelmland there is a large deposit of gold. He tells them to expand." Under that should be: "Hohenzollernia: Receiving orders from Brandenburg, Hohenzollernia invades southern Bohemia and takes the crucial city of w. Also, the colony of v is expanded by Brandenburgian order since the emperor learned that there was valauble gold in the surrounding areas."


 * That should fix it all up. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:09, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Map problems
In addition to the Singapore Islands now being Italian, Vietnam should have annexed all of Andalucia, as they got above the 33.33% chance needed to overthrow the Andalucian government. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:39, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

"The Tangierans officially annex the lands gained from the war with Andalucia. The new lands, which amount to the westernmost third of Andalucia, are absorbed into the country as the Province of Gibraltar."

1905 post.if he annexed all of it, then where are the other two thirds?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:21, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't see that. I'll remove what I put. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:27, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Andalucia will remain in exile in Peru, and will agree to stay out of foriegn affairs. DeanSims 22:33, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Acutally, Vietnam did take all of Andalucia afterwards, so all of Andalucia will be Vietnamese by the next map. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:16, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

And there's the fact that I spelled out the fact that Tangiers annexed the Baleric Islands, which I imagined were divided amongst three fighting factions who each wanted to join one of the three Spanish countries with a Mediterranean coast.Yank 21:45, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

DeanSims and Andalucia
OK, this has caused enough trouble already due to numerous retcons, so I am going to state the situation now: Vietnam has annexed all of Andalucia. Furthermore, DeanSims had no permission to use a second nation when his first still existed (the first whose mere formation was incredibly implausible, and which has been implausible for this entire map game). I am removing DeanSims' control of Andalucia, since it was unauthorized (in fact, Kenny forbid taking a second nation like he did when he tried to do it earlier) and like Yank said was probably just in order to regain part of the Incan territory. Furthermore, all it has done is create retcons and chaos. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:16, May 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hetalia (Principia Moderni)
There's a show that I absolutely adore. And that show is known as Hetalia. For all those unaware of it, Hetalia is a show that depicts history by utitizing national personifications. In other words it tells the tale of history by making each nation a human character. There would be differences in each nation's personality and appearance. Naples (and later Italy) has never been "useless" (the title effectively means "useless Italy" in Japanese), and Russia would be a saner character than depicted on the show. It would provide a wonderful opportunity not presented in the actual map game. The ability to role-play as your country. And when the map game becomes a timeline it can become that world's equivilent of Hetalia. I think it'd be fun to do. What do you say?

Yank 02:04, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

That seems quite fun, but what would Bharat's character be like? :D Imperium Guy 08:22, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden, Russia and Vietnam would hate each other.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:14, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Finland would be in love/best friends with Japan :P also, Finland would be friends with Vietnam and France as well; and secretly hates Sweden too. -Kogasa 15:23, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Russia would have a love-hate relationship with Finland, At times, Finland Living in Russia's House then going into Sweden's, Causing much rift between them. then Russia helps finland get her own house away from Sweden(or kick sweden away from his own house) when Sweden Mistreats finalnd.-Lx (leave me a message) 16:27, May 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes. And to add to what I said previous, Finland, is a female (as Finland has mostly had a female in charge during the unions/confederations and has Empresses and female Shoguns since independence). For Finland's looks, she looks similar to OTL Kogasa Tatara (minus the umbrella, and both eyes are blue) and her personality would be silly/friendly, though can easily fall under someone's control at times (ie, Sweden had forced Finland to be a province of them). -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 16:48, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would also like the defining personality and physical traita of your nation as well as relationships. For instance my Vietnam has medium length black hair in a pony tail and green eyes. She usually (but not always) wears a green Áo Dài (traditional Vietnamese dress) and she always wears a Nón lá (conical straw hat). She usually carries around a rice paddle, which she uses to whack those who displease her. SHe is a confidant and irrepressible woman who always looks out for her friends. What I was saying is that could we make a page for this? --Yank 16:20, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

France would bea changin character, sometimes friend of Sweden, then Russia. Having both Sweden and Finland in his house for a while, then letting them go, disputing Sweden for the privilege of be Finland's friend. Then stay at Russia's house, taking control and making a mess. Finally becoming independent and friendly with almost everyone. Physicaly, France would be a tall, blond guy, with a french mustache, always wearing his blue and white uniform. Trying to be friendly, but, when angry, getting mad and troubeling everyone around.


 * For the Napoleonic Wars Russia Could go into a coma when He was experimenting with new technology while France was living with him(death of Emperor Paul I), Leaving France in charge, who then made a mess of things, and when Russia woke up, he quickly kicked france out.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:18, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * France quickly became a repuyblic when they first saw Russia was regaining independence. So the french would flee from Russia's hose and eventually reconcile with him. --Galaguerra1 16:41, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Arabia would be like Osama bin Laden, at first being friend of France and his friends, but becoming more mad and selfish with the time and wanting everyone to obey him and do what he thinks is correct. Attacking everyone who opposes to him. He'd be an enemy of Bharat and Itsaygahi, a friend of Egypt, and consider Persia to be his son with some attention deficit. Persia, I think, should be unable to hear.

Haiti is a black guy who can't decide if he's a friend or an enemy of France, but he's a friend of his neighbors, Ricasolia, Isolaque, Mixxixxipi, Vietnam even.

The "Napoleonic War" we had could be a struggle between France and Vietnam because France did something wrong with Italy. The Northern Wars should be a endless struggle between Russia and Sweden. --Galaguerra1 17:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

To add alongside Finland, her sisters & brothers:

The Shogunate of Kōshi would look similar to OTL Satori Komeiji though without the third eye, and she wear a business suit. She is mostly a serious and friendly person and gets worried whenever something goes wrong. She is friendly with Japan, and helps out her sister Finland whenever she is in need of help.

Käwäshiro, he looks similar to OTL and is usually mean and greedy, and is always going for the money. Dislikes practicality anyone he meets, save for a few.

And Moriyää, she would like with long dark hair. She is mostly shy and would usually go to Kōshi or Finland for help or protection. -Kogasa 17:36, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

How would Italy uniting work? Italy is closer to Naples than it is to Venice. Naples/Italy would be a good friend to Anglo-Germany and to Vietnam, and would be friendly with France for the most part, and would be going back and forth between Sweden and Russia. Naples/Italy wouldn't like any of the Muslim nations and probably would be very religious, friends with any Papal States character. Venice on the other hand would hate Vietnam irrationally and be a sort of bitter character always wanting to become involved with everything that is going on.LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:49, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Russia would be a very proud(perhaps too proud) and very obsessed with new guns and technology, and figuring out how to use it to destroy its enemies(as Russia is the driving force behind much of the world's military technology, and technology in general (ex. Industrialization, Aviation, Icebreakers, etc...)). He always likes wearing elequant outfits, although his house can get messy at times, and sometimes likes to slack up rules for people living in it so that they dont move out and be happy, but does not tolerate violence in his house. Russia is always getting himself into fights hating when somebody even treatens to take something of his or take people living with him away, and has gotten good at it. the only time the others got close to bringing him down is when they all teamed up against him. Russia has grey-blue eyes. He can be the Son of Moscow and Novgorod, with Grandfather Byzantine Empire, Grandmother Kievan Rus. His other family would include Uncle Greece(Son of Byzantium), other Slavic countries can be his cousins. His little Sibblings Ukraine(fond of Swords)and Belarus, Cousin Poland, Married to Lithuania, and Lithuania's little Brother Latvia are living in his house. Poland and Lithuania had a divorce, in witch hungary took Maiden Poland's side and Russia Lithuania's. Russia tried many times to try to convince Poland and Lithuania to come back together and live with him, witch they after about 4 or 5 attempts, although Poland is often complaining about the agreement, as Belarus is often popping into their affairs.-Lx (leave me a message) 21:16, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Bharat would be a youngish character who often feels unsure on who to support when someone goes to war with another. Bharat would be a male in military uniform with normal length black hair who also likes weapons (hey Russia hasn't always got there first, we built the dreadnought first). Dravidia is his brother and Afganistan is his wife, which he had to fight Persia to get as Persia wasn't allowing the marriage. He would live in a bigish house which he has extended to be able to fit 3 people into. Persia would be something of a distant relative who with relations have soured. :D Imperium Guy 07:14, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

New Lithuania (Gabrielė Laurinaitienė) is a soft-spoken introvert who welcomes new friends into her heart after she gets to know them. She has shoulder-length dark brown hair tied in a ponytail and green eyes. She is afraid that Russia will come to take her away, as he did with her father Lithuania.


 * Hey. "Laurinaitis" is a male name in lithuanian. You should use "" or "Laurinaitytė". :) Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 15:03, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. As an Ango-Candian I am unused to male and female varients to last names.
 * Yank 23:34, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan (Mei Xiao) is a a strong-willed, fashionable young woman who has moments where she can't stop worrying about things. She has long brown hair with a wild curly strand sticking out on the right side of her head and amber eyes. She always wears pink flowers in her hair, and typically wears a pink qipao to match.

Myanmar (U Aung Paing) is a traditonal and optimistic young man, whose belief in local superstitions can often reach near-comical levels. He has short black hair and has dark brown eyes.

Britain (Angus Wallace) is a friendly and brave gentleman with an appreciation for fine culture. He has bright red hair, extremely bushy eyebrows and bright blue eyes. He is never seen not wearing a kilt or balmoral hat.

Hungary: I don't have a idea for the personality of Hungary.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:23, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

You could look up the personality of Hetalia's Hungary and use that.

Yank 18:24, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

By using this site I edited a bit the looks and designs of Finland, Shogunate of Kōshi, and Moriyää (seen on right.) off from the OTL 東方Project characters of Kogasa Tatara, Satori Komeiji, and Reimu Hakurei. Just though I'd share the looks I had in mind. -Kogasa 05:19, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

I named my cat Satori :3 CrimsonAssassin 21:06, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

That's cute. :D, lol. -Kogasa 21:19, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Kenia

 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Motive:
 * Expansion:
 * Military Expansion:
 * Puppet States:
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Bale

 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength:
 * Puppet States:
 * Motive:
 * Expansion:
 * Military Expansion:
 * Chance:
 * Stability:
 * Total:

Discussion
This is for the war between Kenia and Bale.

Yank 01:36, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Map problem (1910)
Where's Toyosaari, Finnish colony that's located on OTL Azores islands established in 1907? It's under another nation for some reason, or is there something I'm missing and I didn't notice? -Kogasa 22:21, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * exactly. Azores is Portuguese. i forgot to color it grey, so still is dark green. i think that you thought that it was black.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:59, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing its the same for Maderia and Nippon then? Dammit I knew it was a bit too good to be true <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:45, May 26, 2012 (UTC).
 * Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:26, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

In 1905, South Africa Expanded into the rest of the Black territory via direct expansion. INstead of that, Hugary's colony expanded into that territory. Also, THe Russian Colony in New Zealand became a country a while back.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:34, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

There's still two itsaygahian states not annexed to itsayghai in the map, thoguh I did annex them, and they're shown light-blue. Ricasolia should also be in blue as it is a province of the Caribbean Federation. The Frre Republic of New Tsalagi (former guinean colony of Itsaygahi) is still not shown. The territory I sold to Bharat is also not shown. And, again, Adal is not shown in its fulle xtension, that is, all the black territory beneath it. --Galaguerra1 23:54, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Which territory?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:59, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Commonwealth of Eetoria and Ngainkeha hasn't been expanded again! Please stop forgetting about my precious commonwealth Collie. Oh and for the record how much can the commonwealth actually expand in 1 year? Cause I can start posting pixel amounts of expansion for commonwealth so it stands out more on the page for you <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:03, May 26, 2012 (UTC).

Could you add colour to Berlin too. EzraNYC 13:39, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I need to invent a new one, and i need to wait until i'm convinced that i won't waste that color (as in if you go to inactivity in a short period of time afetr entering.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:28, May 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Totally understand EzraNYC 21:41, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

Persia

 * Location:1
 * Tactical Advantage:2
 * Strength:Persia (L):4
 * Motive:5
 * Expansion:0
 * Military Expansion:1
 * Puppet States:0
 * Chance:4
 * 4*4=16
 * Editcount=5111
 * 5111/16*pi=1003.54
 * Stability:1.9^1.25/1.25^1.9*2.5*8=29
 * Total:46

Caribbean Federation

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (invasion by sea, high ground)
 * Strength: Isolque (L), Haiti (MV), Ricasolia (M), Mixxixxippi (MV), USA (M), Muisca Confederation (MV), UKKnAnF (M), Dongfang (M), Nouvelle-Patagonie (M), Nouvelle-Champagne (M), Itsaygahi (M), New Tsalagi (MV), Malouinas (M)=36
 * Puppet States:0
 * Motive:10
 * Expansion:-2
 * Military Expansion: 7
 * Chance:7
 * 2*2*6=24
 * Editcount=1009
 * 1009/24*pi=132.07
 * Stability:2.8^1.25/1.25^2.8*2.5*8=38
 * Total:102

Result
A huge Caribbean Federation victory. The CF can take ((102/(102+46))*2)-1=37.83% of Persia at most, depending on how long the war lasts. If the war lasts at least 5 years, the Caribbean Federation will be able to topple the Persian government with (37.83)*(1-1/(2*5))=34.05% of Persian territory taken.

Discussion
I might have missed some of the military buildup for the Caribbean Federation, as we have so many nations now! (another reason so that players can only play as one former colony at a time in the next game). LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:22, May 26, 2012 (UTC)

So, Caribbean Federation... what will be done to Persia? LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:24, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

The war will last until 1913, this is five years. Then I'll occupy Persia, making it a vassal/colony of the Caribbean Federation. Itsaygahi will make the brazilian colony a vassal called the Free Republic of Persepolis. And the former Vicia will become an independent nation under my control, the Republic of Vicia.

If RWG wants to keep playing, fine, but not Persia. He could play this new Iraq sultanate, but I'd prefer him to not, as he just messes my plans for the muslim world.--Galaguerra1 20:53, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Break
I'm going to be gone again for a while, because my dad just died, so please don't mess with Korea. I will be neutral in all wars (if I can) and technology and learning will still flourish. Thanks, PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs)

Moved to the talk page
I quit this game! It's been a crap ton load on me and I can't take it anymore! I really hope the next one to come out so I would not have a bad start! THE END! RandomWriterGuy 01:34, May 28, 2012 (UTC)