Talk:1983: Doomsday

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=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Khanate found in central asia by military expedition
The siberian army found a khanate when it was exploring the former Uzbek SSR,the Khanate of Aralia which its leader,Abdul Rahim claims that is the sucessor state of the Khanate of Khiva,Tuleyev announced that siberia would annex that region but the troops of rahim are equiped with soviet weapons so the siberian army will find resistence
 * Interesting, but you might want to talk to User:Vladivostok. He has pretty much has been the expert on the USSR and Northern Asia and he might have an opinion about what you are proposing for that area. Mitro 01:55, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * In a recent news item, it says that Siberia was expelled from the LoN for their occupation of Aralia. Is this accurate? It was an anon who added it according to the history. --DarthEinstein 02:47, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Even though I like the whole, Cold War feel of things I think it was extremely hasty to kick the USSR out of the LoN, considering that it is the leader of one of the power blocs and basically the strongest nation in the Northern Hemisphere. There should at least be some kind of consensus, Aralia isn't even canon yet. The whole Alaska article issue isn't even over.--Vladivostok 14:03, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

In a new verion of the history of the place, the Siberians/Soviets fail to occupy Aralia. I naturally like this history better, not only because it is more positive but because it mirrors the Soviet's attempted invasion of Afghanistan. --Yankovic270 18:09, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

And I am a firm believer that to make alternate history believable, it needs to mirror true-to-life events as much as possible. --Yankovic270 18:13, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

The point is I don't think Siberia would be kicked out of the LoN, whatever else happens. The Soviet Union wasn't kicked out of the UN for their invasion of Afghanistan. --DarthEinstein 19:12, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the kicking out part was too hasty. And another thing bothers me with the whole defeat. How would Pakistan, on its own, supply Aralia with the necessary equipment? It just couldn't be done without the SAC. It does sound a bit like I'm picking a fight, but it's not. I just want the geopolitics of this whole TL to be more dynamic, since we always say there is some tension in the world, yet it is never really shown.--Vladivostok 20:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

As I see it,in politics as well as in everyday life, there is allways someone eager to help an underdog bloody a blustering bully. In this case, the bully is Siberia, and as far as I can tell they have no shortage of enemies. any number of these nations would be eager to supply weapons to the Aralians. --Yankovic270 22:48, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Common currency for the SAC
According to the article, a common currency for the SAC nations (the Peso Real (PR$)) should have been implented this year. Which nations do you think adopted it? Or am I reading the article wrong and the currency shouldn't actualy be instituted until 2011? Mitro 17:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Is the ADC larger?
According to the Western Sahara (1983: Doomsday) article, the was part of an international force that kicked the Sicilians from Gibraltar in 2005. This makes me wonder whether Rif would actually be a part of the when it was formed in 2007. They would be enemies of Sicily as well and several current members of the ADC were part of that international force. I think it is likely that Rif was a founding member of the alliance. Mitro 17:14, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * All right then, I don't see why not. --DarthEinstein 17:25, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

And what about Bermuda and the East Carribean Federation? They seem to be prime candidates for an enlargement of the ADC, or perhaps observers.--Vladivostok 20:42, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bermuda was only discovered in 2009, so though they might be a potential member in the future, some time will need to pass to take care of the preliminary negotiations. As for the ECF, well the ADC was pretty much created to fight and contain expansionist Sicily.  Canada is a member though despite not being anywhere near Sicily, but I think that is because they have a lot to lose if the route through the Mediterranean Sea is blocked.  Would the ECF have the same interest?  Mitro 15:48, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * The ECF might be more affiliated economically with the SAC because it is so close. Canada on the other hand was fairly isolated before the late 80s when they contacted the other future members of the ADC. So I think that Canada would have more trade going on with the other ADC members than the ECF would. Also, is it possible that a few of those French and Spanish successor states might be part of the ADC? Monaco and Andorra especially, since they are apparently the gateways in to former France and Spain. --DarthEinstein 16:18, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we can make an argument that anyone who was a target for Sicilian aggression was a founding member of the ADC, or at least joined later. Mitro 16:19, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Granted, the ECF would be economically closer to the SAC nations, but perhaps it would try to uphold stronger relations with with other nations in the Anglosphere. And one other thing I've been meaning to ask: How strong are the ADC and ANZC ties today? Would they support them in a cold war against SAC? Sort of like OTL Great Britain supporting the U.S.?--Vladivostok 08:39, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Only 2 nations in the ADC are technically a part of the Angloshere (Canada and the Celtic Alliance), but I could see them join a revitalized Commonwealth of Nations. As for the ANZC, the article does say that they are close with the ADC, but SAC nations have aided the member states of the ADC in conflicts against Sicily.  Mitro 04:36, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Anglosphere" is i think an issue some people would love to discuss...
 * Given the old NATO structures and fellow associations (ANZUS, Commonwealth etc.) a close tie (as always stated) in between ADC and ANZC seems natural, at least militarical... this should stay and being kept. They are just natural allies in a world with few alternatives...right number 3 or for along with Siberia, right behind SAC and ANZC.--Xi&#39;Reney 23:35, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Israel attacks
When the article was created, we came to the consensus that Israel would probably use its nuclear weapons on its neighbors after it lost the support of the US. Now I always thought this would happen later, maybe a few year after DD, but a closer look at the article says it happened on or shortly after DD. Thoughts? Comments? Questions? I marked the article as a proposal for the time being. Mitro 19:51, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Prior to writing the article on Israel, I carefully read up as to what their policies are as to the use of nuclear weapons. The understanding I got was a certain series of events would need to be met before they would be used. This is why a scenario in which they attack a neighboring state would have to have a logical basis. I honestly believe Egypt would have been attacked by the USSR for the same reason Israel and Jordan were on Doomsday, because of the close military relations they had with the US. This said, Egypt would have not been been in such a state to mount a serious attack post Doomsday which would have forced Israel to go nuclear. Even if they were to mount an attack, say over Israel moving into the Sinai, which is feasible, I believe Israel would be able to repulse them without resorting to nukes, where as Iraq moving against them would provide a correct scenario. I must confess to being a bit confused when I read the Egypt article before I started mine and was unsure of what to make of it, since it was my impression, right or wrong, it was a proposal at the time. I honestly think this article, as it applies only to this point, is something we may want to rethink for changing, which would have little impact since it only affects Egypt and Israel. Logically, I don't see Israel attacking Egypt at all. However, I will bow to the thoughts of the group as to this, since I will be returning to my article in the new year. --Fxgentleman 03:07, December 25, 2009 (UTC) this policy does sem consistent becuse the US was a key ally of Isreal and with the US gone Isreal would be in danger so the Isreali Prime minister would order a strike against Egypt--Owen1983 13:04, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Las Vegas
Ok, so with the new news item on the main page I was wondering about the status of Las Vegas. It wouldn't have been a target on Doomsday as it had absolutely no strategic importance, it has water and electricity from the Hoover Dam and Lake Mead. The only thing it would be lacking would be food. In 1980 it had a population of about 460 thousand, today with about 1.3 million its starting to have water problems, so I don't see them really having a lot of water problems. Realistically I think Las Vegas would be in relatively excellent shape. Its economy would be destroyed obviously with no tourism, but I don't see things devolving to the point in the news story where there are only 20,000 people left. Its possible that with the destruction of the tourism industry there some of the hotels and such could be converted into vertical farms such as this.--Oerwinde 00:58, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

More than likely Las Vegas and the adjacent North Las Vegas would have been destroyed given the proximity of Nellis AFB which was listed as a primary target for a Soviet attack. Since the city sits in what is essentially a bowl, the intial force of the blast or blasts would more than likely be confined to this area. However, given the winds I could see contamination of Clark County from the fallout of not just Vegas but California, more than likely rendering it a dead area for awhile. Once the radiation passed it is probable people could return, but water would be a very serious and ongoing problem, and most likely would affect choices to inhabit the area. However, it would make more sense people would gather around Lake Mead, if Hoover Dam had not been damaged or struck. Given that the electrical capacity of the dam would have been fried by the EMPs, I don't see it providing electricity for some time. It could see slowly be restored over time by someone like Utah and would require a number of people to do so. If survivors, say such as those from Boulder City could make it to to the dam, it would provide excellent shelter from fallout. Having toured the interior of the dam, I could see a scenario where workers plus others form a community that spreads around Lake Mead, and eventually is incorporated by say Utah. --Fxgentleman 19:51, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't realize there was a military base right in the middle of the city. That seals that then. A survivor community based in Hoover Dam and around Lake Mead would be pretty sweet though.--Oerwinde 23:52, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well you are all talking about this so start it, make a new article about Vegas. Riley.Konner 05:53, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

I would be interested in collaborating with Oerwinde on a possible future article about this area. However, since he made the original suggestion about Las Vegas, I feel it would have to be his decision. Otherwise, I don't think it would be fair to write anything by myself.--Fxgentleman 03:54, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've got no problem if you want to go ahead. I have plenty on my plate with western Africa right now.--Oerwinde 05:19, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe some influence could come from the Navajo Nations/Reservaiton in the area?? I can remember the huge coal power plant from my travel some time ago...
 * what bothers me is if the Soviets would spare a nuke to target Hoover Dam/ Glen Canyon Dam or something directly? Would be a vital hit against californian energy infrastructure, water supply etc... given possible later pacific coast invasion plans..
 * if not nuked... controlling this energy infrastructure of the area -bonus: fresh water lake mead, lake powell- would be of crucial interest for neighbouring entities and maybe even a war-reason...--Xi&#39;Reney 23:44, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

New World Map
Due to size, the discussion for the new world map has been moved here: File talk:World83DD v1.2.PNG. Mitro 17:57, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Template:Nations 1983DD
new template, think about


 * This template is kind of large and unweildly. How can we use it?  Mitro 03:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe only on the main page of the timeline.--Oerwinde 07:06, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * There has to be a way to condense it similar to what has been done on WP. collapsing segments and such. Louisiannan 20:41, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Victoria Flag
The Citizen's Congress currently going on now will eventually propose that the government of Victoria adopt a federal system in order to provide regional autonomy. As this is a huge change it will basically require a huge ammendment to the Victorian constitution. With the addition of US territory and a new direction for the country, the government will take proposals for a new national flag and hold a referrendum on which flag to adopt. I have a few choices I've come up with and would love some other contributions. The only thing I wasn't able to do with the new flag choices that I wanted to do was incorporate some british elements. The color is all I was able to keep for that. I've got the red, white, and blue representing both british and american origins, the maple leaf denoting the canadian origins, and the 7 stars which will represent the 7 provinces. If you want to contribute it doesn't have to look anything like the ones I've made or incorporate any of the elements, as long as it looks good and is representative of the country.--Oerwinde 11:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I most like the current flag, but I guess that's just the Anglophile in me. If you really want to change it, I'd say go with number 3. --DarthEinstein 21:19, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well its a referrendum so if the concensus is to keep the current flag, thats what it will be.--Oerwinde 21:42, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I also really like the current flag but it should have an element of the American in it. Maybe a burger.... Bob 12:18, January 9, 2010 (UTC) I have made a flag myself Bob 13:10, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I like the fifth option the best. Is it ok if I add one of those slick polls to the discussion page? --Yankovic270 15:31, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Which flag should Oerwinde use for Victoria? Current Flag Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4 Option 5 Added another one inspired by Mumby's--Oerwinde 10:40, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Thompson tank picture
I would really like an image made of the Thompson tank. I would like it to have features of the WWII American Pershing tank, and the German King Tiger. And I would politely request that the German features be more dominent. Until then I will use an unaltered image of a King Tiger tank as a placeholder. --Yankovic270 19:21, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

WCRB News on Mainpage needs condensation
Anyone objecting reinstating the idea of limiting the news on the 83DD Mainpage?? Or alternatively making headlines only with a link to the news itself??? This is growing too long. my mouse wheels is really annoyed now !:P --Xi&#39;Reney 00:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
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status of historical artifacts and monuments
Doomsday certainly destroyed countless of these, so whats left? --User:WAJJER--WAJJER 01:28, December 13, 2009

no structures survived in Europe or North America but i remember a tv show frome the 1990s caled Buck Rogers in the 25th century which was set long after a nuclear war and it stated Mount rushmore survived so I guess it survived in this OTL--Owen1983 21:57, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Rushmore survived the war, but was defaced later during the violent period of Sioux nationalism. Benkarnell 22:03, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I think what you just described can be described as a war crime. And why on earth would the want to deface it? They have the huge statue of Crazy Horse, so they should be happy. I think we should have them intent to deface the monument, only to get twarted at the last minute. --Yankovic270 22:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Any historical monuments in West Virginia? Because they would survive Doomsday reletively easily. --Yankovic270 22:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Black Hills are just about the most sacred place in the world in traditional Sioux culture, and many Sioux see Mt. Rushmore as an unconscionable, if not downright insulting, scar on them - and that's *here*, not *there*, where there was a radical, militant, nationalistic movement that took hold among the tribe. There was a huge protest at the mountain in 1971 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rushmore#Controversy).  And Crazy Horse is (1) unfinished even today, and (2) opposed by many for the same reason they oppose Rushmore.  I would imagine that destroying Rushmore would symbolically show the Sioux nationalists' victory over the successors of the US and their purging of their new country of all US ifluence.  It's kind of like the Taliban destroying those Buddhas.  I'd imagine that the Lakotah Republic would have apologized for such an act, though, once moderates were in power and seeking to join the North American Union.  Benkarnell 22:54, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I would hunt down those responsible, try them and summarily execute them. I doubt there is a citizen in any of the American survivors states whose blood wouldn't boil over this atrocity. Hell, there might be a backlash against Native Americans. Scratch that. There will be a backlash on Native Americans. I could see mobs of angry citizens lynching any aboringinal they can find, and destroying all they own. Even will the apology, I doubt the ill will caused by this atrocity will go away any time soon. It is harsh, but pretty much any American I know whould be absolutely furious if anything happened to Mount Rushmore. I see the Virginian Republic expelling any aboriginals in its territory over this outrage. --Yankovic270 23:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I am not american but I think Mount Rushmore is a very inportent monuman to US history and ensuring there survival will preserve the past IMHO I would like to see Mount Rushmore preserved as a LoN world heratige site--Owen1983 23:17, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yankovic - this isn't real. Benkarnell 00:40, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Aren't you Canadian? Mr.Xeight 00:53, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it doesn't take an american to see that the sculpture at Mount Rushmore is as much a beloved symbol of America as the Statue of Liberty. Think of it this way. You are an American lets say, and someone defaced Mount Rushmore with graffiti or explosives. You would probbably be angry. If such an attack would happen in real life most Americans would be furious. I imagine the reaction would be the same in the 1983:Doomsday timeline. Yankovic270 01:36, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are overreacting Yank. Maybe OTL if someone destroyed Mt. Rushmore people would be upset, but would there be a huge backlash against Native Americans?  No.  Look at 9/11, probably the greatest tragedy in American history.  Was every single Muslim American rounded up into camps or did the streets run red with Arab blood?  No.  Was there some violence, yes but all things considered it certainly wasn't as bad as, lets say, what happened to the Sikhs when Indira Gandhi was killed in 1984.  I believe over 3000 people died.  Americans just aren't like that except for those few ignorant white trash yokels.  I don't think you truly understand the American mindset.
 * As for this ATL, consider this Yank, why should anyone care? If the Lakota do destroy the monument it could take years for the majority of Americans to find out.  Only the people of the PUSA would know about right away, but they would be enemies anyway so they have other reasons to hate them.  Furthermore there are a lot of American survivor states that don't even see themselves as Americans anymore (like the MSP), would the destruction of the monument really effect them?  Also there are Americans who have been born since DD who probably have never even seen pictures of the place, how could they get an attachment to it?  And why would all Native Americans be helpless?  Many reservations are away from targets and would have access to farmland and other necessities.  If anything they most Indians would be better off then non-Indians in North America.
 * It just seems odd that an ethinic American upon finding out the monument was destroyed would go psycho and kill the first Native American they see. Also compare the destruction of the monument to DD itself.  If Americans would go nutso on some Indians for blowing up some stones, what would they do to a citizen Socialist Siberia, the successor state to the USSR?  Mitro 05:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

We haven't even established any fate for Mount Rushmore, much less its destruction. And how would you, in a post-WWIII world, destroy or even deface the monument? That would have to be a pretty massive undertaking, and you'd pretty much be the only ones to know about it. I'd like to hear a realistic explanation of why, and how, Mt. Rushmore would be destroyed...if it's determined it wasn't, then Owen's idea of making it an LoN world heritage site is an excellent idea.--BrianD 06:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I'm no expert on blowing up monuments, but wouldn't conventional explosives, maybe dynamite used by firefighters and construction workers, be enough to damage the monument? Mitro 13:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Its possible the Statue of Liberty survived. Although it would be damaged. Most Berlin landmarks survived, I would guess the Pyramids would survive as well, they would be far enough away to escape with only superficial damage. Keep in mind that a lot of the suburban areas of major cities would survive mostly intact, while the fallout would push the population away or kill them, so any landmarks in the suburban areas of major cities would likely survive.--Oerwinde 07:58, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I think both Americans and Native Americans would be outraged i can imagine the culprits being tried and sentaced to hard labor reparing the damage they caused--Owen1983 18:37, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, why would they be punished? As Ben pointed out a lot of Native Americans don't like the monument to begin with.  Furthermore I doubt a sovereign nation is going to turn over its citizens to be tried for doing something that said nation probably approved of when it happened.  As for other Americans, why should they care?  Consider the Americans in Australia who integrated into Australian culture or the survivor states that have established new identities.  Why would they care?  Mitro 18:45, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

As major cites have been destroyed, major artifacts are now lost. so local museums, like my local bassetlaw museum, could have surived in the UK and in other nations. but due the chaos, they would be ransacked (remember what happened in Iraq after the invasion). also being used: in my museum a 5th century log boat would be used as firewood for any survivors, or using old farm tools. In the UK, Stonehenge could survive with some cathderals; Ely, Lincoln (?), Peterbrough. I'm only mentioning this as the 'Rushmoore argument' and others focuse on America. It is fine discussing about it, but I would like some discussions on a much, broader scope. This does sound like univeristy speack, since i am a student. --WAJJER 19:13, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with walker I think we are ignoring the topic becuse people are focusing on America

I'd imagine the artifacts in Berlin would take on increased value. The Berlin Wall might be a major historic site. Obviously as Switzerland was not attacked the museums and artifacts there would have survived. Same for South America. Perhaps the Great Wall of China as well? And, I'm wondering if it is possible that something survived in the ruins of the Vatican in Rome, perhaps in some kind of underground chamber?--BrianD 23:30, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for my behavior.I was reacting based on personal feelings. You see, one year me and my familiy went on a vacation to South Dakota, and we visited Mount Rushmore. It just became a cherished memory of mine. Everyone has an event,person or item that fills a special place in his or her heart. The sight of Mount Rushmore in the rain, looking like they were crying. That was, and is one of my most cherished memories. Yankovic270 01:49, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

so was Mount Rushmore destroyed? the NAU PAGE SAYS IT WAS. --HAD 13:45, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I added that, it just seemed like something they would do. Maybe they wouldn't be able to "destroy" the entire monument, but they probably deface it enough.  Mitro 00:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

There's a Confederate version of Rushmore in Atlanta. Any speculations as to what might have happened to that? Mr.Xeight 04:33, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Stone Mountain, Georgia. It may have survived the nukes.--BrianD 04:46, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Stone Mountain monument and park are only 14.5 miles east by northeast (74 degrees) from downtown Atlanta. However, it is a monument much larger than Rushmore, made out of granite.  It also has its "back" to Atlanta (or at least its side turned slightly away.  Though the fireball of a large nuclear blast would certainly burn all the buildings and most of the vegetation in the park, the monument would stand.  Unless the shock wave shook the earth enough to cause major seismic activity, then we can't be sure.  It is most certainly closer to a blast than Rushmore would have been.  Vandals, though, would have a harder time at getting to the sculpture, and it is not on "holy ground."


 * By the way, the sculpture who designed Rushmore had first been commissioned to start on Stone Mountain, but broke his contract. He was on the run from the authorities in Georgia when he agreed to do work on Mt. Rushmore! --SouthWriter 05:25, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

So South you are saying that Mount Rushmore is safe from both the event of Doomsday and the people after it? --Yankovic270 16:48, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I was commenting on Stone Mountain. If you are referring to that, yes, the monument at Stone Mountain probably survived and was not accessible to vandalism. --SouthWriter 19:50, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

What would happen to the ceramic plates inscribed the important documents of America (the contistitution, Bill of Rights) that are in a time capsule behind mount Rushmore? --Yankovic270 16:48, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Fairmont Whiskey Company
I have three questions to ask:

1. Is anyone from West Virginia and presumably able to survive Doomsday?

2. Would you like to be the millionaire CEO of a sucessful Post-DD whiskey company?

3. If so, then what is your actual birth name (not username) or a variation of it?

--Yankovic270 23:03, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
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US Military Bases
Do they have the facilities to manufacture their own ammunition if it became necessary to do so?? I only ask cos ammo supplies aren't infinite.

If push came to shove could they create such facilities??

Verence71 20:25, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Happy new year!!!
Happy new year, everyone!--HAD 18:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Grammar nazism in Superior news item
I think it should correctly be "halls of fame", not "hall of fames". Benkarnell 05:27, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

shouldn't is be "hall of fame"? that what we say where i'm from. --HAD 12:14, January 10, 2010 (UTC) I agree whith HAD on this one Halls of theme doesnt make sence--Owen1983 15:42, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ben's right on this one because the item is referring to more than one hall of fame; "hall of fames" was a typo on my part.--BrianD 16:28, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

I agree the s should be removed, but what I would like to know is how does an extra "s" on "fame" equate to nazism?--GOPZACK 17:08, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

thanks for enlightening me, Brian. also, i believe the "nazisim" reference is an attempt at humour. am i right? --HAD 19:33, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

India articles
I added information on Khalistan and Operation Red Blood which was blank before that. Any ratification problem --MC Prank 15:25, November 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 05:56, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/India_(1983:_Doomsday), here. --MC Prank 07:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * See also Republic of Khalistan (1983: Doomsday) and . Mitro 03:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * For Red Blood, why did India attack Arunachal Pradesh first? Wouldn't it make sense to first go after areas that are adjacent to UIP lands? Come to think of it, I thought the UIP was a pretty decentralized body for getting the different areas to agree with each other. How is it finding so much military success all of a sudden?  One success (Sikkim) seems OK.  But this step-by-step reconquest seems to be flying by awfully easily.  Benkarnell 02:58, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

It is easier to conquer Arunachal Pradesh as it borders the UIP from both sides, that is, if you have seen the map. Yeah, I realised my mistake. Now I'll Limit Red Blood to just Arunachal Pradesh and The current UIP members form a federal country. First, it stabilizes over a course of time and then goes on to re-claiming the break-away states. You were right this success was just too easy considering UIP just a provisional body. --MC Prank 16:26, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Even with the changes, it seems to be too much, too fast. That's two national governments completely wiped out in two months.  I'm sure they were far from being stable, modern powers, but then, India's UIP isn't very stable or modern either.  (EDIT) Also, wouldn't Manmohan Singh be a citizen of Khalilstan and not the President of India?   Benkarnell 13:23, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Manmohan Singh was the Governor of RBI, India's central bank in 1982, before that he taught at the Universty of Delhi, and also worked for the Foreign & Finance Ministries so there's a lot of chance that he could try to unify India OTL. And you must be knowing that all sikhs dont live in just Punjab. --MC Prank 16:20, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

LON Authority for Space Operations
To bring forward the issue of spaceflight (and in a larger frame more global themes in 1983: Doomsday) i propose the canonization of the LoN - Authority for Spatial Operations, situated in Kourou and established by the TSAR treaty in January 2009. Aiming at coordinating and supervising spacfaring and realted activities worldwide in the signing and ratifiying states.

A frame I worked out now, some details are needed (site for ANZC launch site... etc. I already tried to refer to what I found in other articles, but not sure if got everything. Harmonizing with League of Nations and other pages will be done if approved.

Thanks for your help and comments.--Xi&#39;Reney 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Before Doomsday the US was a major force in Space exploration but with the US gome the only two countries that have the recourses ar the SSS and ANZC and theres another thing how are these governmants going to justify a space program when people in meny parts ofthe world have medievel living standerds --Owen1983 19:07, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * You know what Owen, this is one of the few times I have to agree with you. Space exploration in all likelihood will be a low priority even among the first world nations.  Mitro 19:15, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * My intention is definitely not bringing any moon mission into DD. Any ambitious space program Would sound like Science fiction. I am mainly thinking about practical focus, e.g. satellite starts for reestablishing communications and/or meteorological/reconaissance purposes, maybe a GPS-like system in a timeframe roughly 2009...more economical than rebuilding vast terrestrial infrastructure once you get a functioning rocket system back to work. --Xi&#39;Reney 22:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is true, we take satellites so much for granted nowadays that we forget just how much the Space Race has benefited society. If you can just get a satellite up there, it is much easier to use it to communicate, instead of building miles and miles of land lines.  nd then there are the public safety benefits that come from being able to see hurricanes and the like when they're still out in the middle of the ocean.  Benkarnell 23:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Satelites make sense, my concern though was for more ambitios space exploration designs I have been seeing pop up on certain articles. One proposal suggested that an American survivor state could make it back to the moon sometimes in the 2010s.  Mitro 00:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is that page? Benkarnell 00:52, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was on the proposal, but Riley has removed it but has kept the space exploration which still seems unlikely IMO for such a nation.  Mitro 03:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I could see Virginia starting a space program. Considering what kind of nation Virginia is, the space prgram could have started as an unexpected side effect of missile research. --Yankovic270 03:21, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

New British elections
British elections coming up! Bob 20:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * See 2009 Realm of New Britain General Election (1983: Doomsday) for the article in question. Mitro 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the Anglo-Africans just continue parties popular among them, such as the Progressive Federal Party, instead of copying British parties for no apparent reason? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:04, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * We've already noted that British people from the UK came to New Britain. Many of these people would have been politicians, with a collapsing government and civil disorder, when an existing stable party community arrives, it only makes sense that they would take root and stabilise political aggravations. Bob 13:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh sure, that make sense. It's the Anglo-Africans I'm talking about however. Why would they conform to a model identical to the one previously used in Britain and forget everything about their own political history? Especially given the fact that they form the majority of the population, that just doesn't make sense to me. Also, given the fact that South Africa used a system of proportional representation and I've never heard of any country that moved from a proportional system to a district system as rigid as the British one (correct me if I'm wrong on this though), my estimate is New Britain would definitely have more than just two to three political parties. You may even want to spice things up by adding an ethnic Xhosan party, openly supportive of KwaXhosa. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 14:38, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is I've put in alot of information into the table but it doesn't come up. Can anyone help? Bob 11:34, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

There would be a large Xhosa population, given NB's location. But Karsten, a couple things: South Africa's state collapsed and there was a lot of population displacement, so it's plausible that NB wouldn't resemble South Africa too closely. Though since most people would be used to a PR government, I would expect them to keep that. Benkarnell 18:23, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

I think kertens got a good point a political parties should reflect the ethnic diversity in NB --Owen1983 18:46, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Bob 16:38, December 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there would be an "Afrikaans National Party" in New Britain. The history suggests that most Afrikaaners were replaced by Anglo-Africans.  Mitro 02:59, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Article on Soviet Alaska created by Vlad. Mitro 03:10, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to be annoying and stubborn, but. As I was re-reading the Authority for Space Operations page, I was reminded of another reason to at least be careful before we reject this page: the idea of a Soviet Alaska - and of some sort of Soviet-ANZUS conflict - has been embedded in the TL for some time.  It's not quite as bad as the Panama issue, but it's still significant.  I'm not sure how many pages we would have to look over and change if we now decide that there are not, and never have been, any Soviets in Alaska.  Benkarnell 17:01, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that you're fighting for the article to stay,I really am and I would be too, it's just that I can't come up with such a solid reason to still have it as canon.--Vladivostok 19:21, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd really rather not think of it that way. This canon issue, really, is what bothered me from the time that Alaska's existence was most recently questioned.  We started having proposals and canon for a reason.  We, as writers, were tired of not knowing what was "real" within the universe of 1983DD.  With a system of canon/QSS, you can be assured that what is written down is a "fact", and write freely based on that assurance.  It's like a pile of bricks, where every new item rests on what came before it.  When we start bringing long-established facts into question, like Panama and now Alaska, it's like reaching into the pile and pulling out a brick that's 4 or 5 rows down.  It doesn't affect just that one item, it also will move the ones resting on top of it.  The details of the Alaskan Autonomous Oblast or Territory or what-have-you were not fleshed out until very recently, but the existence of a Soviet Alaska, and of some kind of ate 80s/early 90s conflict over it, have been part of the body of knowledge for a long time.  The August world map includes it. (Yes, I know I also had a couple of non-canonical bits on that map, especially South Africa.  But the Alaskan situation was not mine; it was based on material that had already been discussed and accepted.)  I'll repeat that I have no idea how many pages that bit of information is currently affecting.  Definitely the George Bush article, for one.  But we are going to make a /lot/ of unpleasant work for ourselves if we get in the habit of debating and changing stuff that we agreed on already.  Benkarnell 19:55, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you Ben. When I came here I was working with previously established data and this removing of Alaska from canon was somewhat surprising to me. But now I seriously have doubts in the plausibility of Alaska. Back when Alaska and Socialist Siberia were made, more than half the articles we have just didn't exist. And Alaska wasn't really an issue, since there were no articles covering the area, except the ones established, it was regarded as the best option. But now, after fleshing out Siberia and the surrounding area, people started to take notice at a few of the flaws associated with the article. And so it had to be changed. I'm not saying we should just go and rewrite everything,I'm just saying that we should try to work out some of the inconsistencies from past articles, as well as be watchful of new articles.--Vladivostok 20:59, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * So Vlad, what do you want specifically to do with the page? Could we have a shrunken A.A.T. - the Alaska Peninsula, the land around Bethel, and the St. Lawrence, Aleutian, and Nunavak Islands, maybe?  Benkarnell 13:39, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well,I'd hate to see all of the page just marked obsolete, a shrunken Autonomous Territory would work best. I just don't know anymore what the reason behind annexing the land could be. Maybe the small skirmishes led to smaller places joining the Socialist Union, that could be plausible.--Vladivostok 21:35, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

I changed a couple of things in the article to maybe make it a bit more palatable, basically making the territory smaller and generally toning it down a bit. Comments are welcome.--Vladivostok 21:09, December 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ben and Vlad... in no way did I want to insult anyone, his work, established canon or defying the QSS out of sheer egoism...sorry if it appeared that way. I was getting a bit fierce in the discussion because I felt Siberia a bit too large for my taste in the situation...

As I am reading back into doomsday once more I seem ro find so many flaws in fundamental, though small things...caused by me or other early contributors writing more "for fun" and not with timeline/canon coherency in mind...and we are now left puzzling what to do..not to tear down not only 3 or for rows of brick but a whole wall of the 83DD house...a dificult issue on the small line between easy-fun-writing and serious-logical alternate-world-building ...--Xi&#39;Reney 00:04, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Created by KingSweden 21:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC) A small survivor community in eastern Washington, presuming the Columbia River Valley wasn't hit too hard.
 * Pretty much all the strategic locations were in the Seattle/Tacoma area so it should be good. I guess this would be a state that developed sometime after Utah kicked Spokane's butt in 93? Likely Spokane's major rival at this point.--Oerwinde 11:52, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, a blurb should be added to the page that acknowledges the known history of Spokane. If Spokane was making raids as far away as Utah in the 90s, probably this area was under their influence as well.  Benkarnell

Dutch Wastelands
An article of mine. It's about the low-lying areas in the Netherlands that have become flooded into swampland Post Doomsday.--ShutUpNavi 20:09, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like it. Mitro 13:44, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd have to agree with Mitro here. And no matter how much I dislike the thought of Groningen being under water, it does make perfect sense. Since this is mostly built up from canon material, I see no objections to canonise this. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 12:23, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, I just checked it on this website and the city of Groningen is actually at an average height of over 6.5 meters above sea-level. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 12:38, December 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a lot of questions about the article. I think we should leave it as a proposal until Navi has a chance to answer a few of them.  Mitro 14:41, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Owen. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article on one of the fictional leaders of an MSP city state. Article created by an anon. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Zeifodd. Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Question: would the UK manage to evacuate 900k to southern Africa? Mitro 17:37, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

answer: they couldnt becuse it would be impossible a more realistic figure would be 200 max becuse with fual souces gone and there would nned space for machinary and crops--Owen1983 17:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

I just started with 900k to provoke debate. I agree that it should be smaller, but 200 is a gross underestimation. Your average British ship houses and provides for men in excess of 300. I think the bar should be set about 300k and we can discuss from there. Bob 16:36, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

200 would be about right due to food been rationed and coal or diesel needed to make the journey--Owen1983 13:11, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Even if you can organise an exodus of about 200k brits to southern Africa (use cruiseliners etc. and it goes okey..) what would you do with the problems in te host nation?? food, shelter, public opinion, neigbour states reaction?? As far as imagine 200.000 of mainly white people of the "Empire" -though long gone- nearing the shore of southerm africa...a HUGE conflict potential IMO.--Xi&#39;Reney 00:32, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Formerly an empty canon article, but an anon has begun to expand on the history. Mitro 17:39, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why are the US Virgini Islands a part of the ECF and not Puerto Rico in this ATL? The US Virgin Islands are practically right next door to Puerto Rico.  Meanwhile both countries have a lot in common being both former American territories.  Mitro 17:09, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. Also, do you think that maybe Puerto Rico would have been attacked on Doomsday? As a US territory, it would be a valid target for at least a nuke on the capital city, if not one or two more. --DarthEinstein 20:36, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

Having been to both the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico I can tell you both have quite different cultures. Their status as US territories would not help unite them after what happened to the US in this TL. While I could see the US VI’s joining Puerto Rico I think it's more likely that they would join the British Virgin Islands and the ECF. They are even closer and almost culturally identical. Plus even in OTL the US VI has more trade and contact with the Anglophone islands than it dose with Puerto Rico.--70.249.158.139 21:27, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well in all honesty I am not an expert of the area, but I assumed that since both places would retain their American governments post-DD, there would be some level of cooperation. Its possible they would even retain contact with Reagan and Bush for as long as they remained on the mainland.  Mitro 00:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * The ECF seems like basically a federation of Afro-Anglo-Caribbean cultures, and the USVI definitely belongs in that category (here's a little descripion of the local creole.) PR's culture is OTOH definitely Hispanic.  My understanding of the ECF's history is that the original members of the West Indies Federation decided to revive it and approached the formerly American islands; the USVI said yes, and PR said no.
 * One thing I've been thinking about lately: some of us, especially Mitro, have been saying for a while that South America should have more places where it has extended its influence - not dependencies exactly, but associated states or observer nations, just like Australia-New Zealand has. It occurred to me that Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are natural allies of the SAC.  Benkarnell 18:23, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe Puerto Rico and other Hispanic states would have observer membership in the SAC. Mitro 23:32, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe eventually, but the SAC is still somewhat new. Wasn't it only established in 2004? They could apply for observer status in the near future, I suppose. --DarthEinstein 02:13, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, that is over 5 years. Enough time to attract observers, I'd think, especially if they already had economic ties with the South American countries. Benkarnell 02:35, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also the SAC is the world's largest economy. Having free access to that market would attract a lot of nations.  Mitro 02:58, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very well. What about the Central American nations too? --DarthEinstein 03:34, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Nicaragua and Costa Rica are spoken for: Nicaragua's more a Soviet ally, and Costa Rica has tried to balance Soviet and South American influences. Belize is an ECF member.  We still have no idea what the hell's going on in Panama, although the eastern end of it was annexed to Colombia.  But El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala are potential SAC clients.  Benkarnell 03:41, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Bentwaters/Woodbridge Military Government
It's been brought to my attention that Mildenhall was such a large base that it would be targetted on Doomsday so I've moved my survivor to another US base in Suffolk.

Verence71 10:32, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * So if the name was condensed would it be.... Bentwood? :P--Oerwinde 11:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Here's a new proposal I cooked up. Are there any problems with this?

--Jnjaycpa 05:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

If you're looking for a handy Romanov this guy was a pretender/claimant to the Russian throne in 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_Vladimir_Kirillovich_of_Russia

Verence71 11:31, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

this artle would clash with the Socialist Siberia (1983: Doomsday) articl but there might be room for it in SW Russia --Owen1983 14:35, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

As long as it stays in southwest Russia only and isn't too big (since this region was nuked fairly badly), I think that this would be fine. I look forward to its continuation. --DarthEinstein 15:21, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Not sure that Armenia and Azerbaijan would be so chummy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian-Azerbaijani_war_(1918%E2%80%931920)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_War

Verence71 19:41, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

No one in the Caucuses is exactly chummy with each other. In fact the region is a tinderbox of ethnic-hatred and violence. Not trying to make the region look bad or anything (I hear the people are friendly and the scenery is breathtaking) but look what happened our timeline. As soon as the Soviet Union collapsed (and in some cases even before) the region immediately descended into war. Literally everyone was fighting with another ethnic group at some point or another. Given this I have to wonder how stable a region like this would be.

Now there are a few people who I could see joining (or at least tolerate) a Russian based state if things got really bad (mainly Abkhazians, Ossetians, and perhaps Armenians). Others would violently oppose such a country (Georgians, Azerbaijanis, and Chechens). Given this I think sutch a state could work out, but it would need to be revised. Also I need to see if there are any major targets in the regon outside the major cities that would get blown up.--ShutUpNavi 02:24, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

It depends how the various elements of the Federation joined. As Shutup said some parts could join of their own free will whereas others, such as Georgia could be forced to join at gunpoint

Verence71 12:48, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

China
Not that I'm volunteering but has anyone created anything about survivor nations in China??

Verence71 20:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only around the edges. There's a page for Tibet, and Siberia controls Xinjiang and Manchuria. --DarthEinstein 20:43, December 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, only a northern part of Manchuria is a part of the USSR. Anyway, what happed to the Republic of China? --Grand Prince Paul II. 22:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

From what I can gather China descended into chaos after Doomsday with elements of the PLA fighting each other so perhaps China had a repeat of the post WWI Warlord Era. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era

Verence71 00:08, December 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Republic of China is the official name of Taiwan, People's Republic of China being mainland communist china. Taiwan wasn't hit, but probably would have gotten a bit of fallout. Other than that I could see it being a major stabilizing force in southern China, stepping in to "claim their right as the true democratic government of China".--Oerwinde 05:24, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

According to a Singapore expedition, the capital of Taiwan was nuked. It can be assumed that the Taiwan government collapsed afterwards. Perhaps if the other cities were spared, it could become a successful survivor nation. --Jnjaycpa 06:02, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * What possible reason could there be for Taiwan to be nuked? An authoritarian government undergoing massive democratic unrest, with much of the world not even recognizing their political independence couldn't be much less of a threat to the soviets or NATO.--Oerwinde 08:35, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be nuked by China, if by anyone. --DarthEinstein 22:42, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I just doubt Taiwan would be more than an afterthought when facing nuclear attack from abroad.--Oerwinde 00:33, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think that just Taipei being nuked that isn't too unreasonable, though. --DarthEinstein 00:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

FYI: Taiwan (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 22:45, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

,, and
Individual articles on the member states of the. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

I JUST saw this while looking through the DD talk page. If the anon author is still around, are you still working on this article? I postulated that Elizabeth City (northwest of Manteo) was a survivor community that had been discovered by Brazil years ago, and recently rediscovered by the LoN. I'd like to discuss your good ideas, so we are not conflicting with one another.--BrianD 16:01, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Formerly empty article expanded on by an anon. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Article created by Owen. Mitro 16:34, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Article I created. --Fero 18:26, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

, &
Three more ANZC Associate States I made GOPZACK 23:31, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Norfolk's still just an infobox, but that 's OK for now. Tuvalu's good: I like that it still has such a "third world" feel, and I like all the cultural details.  The "economy" section mentions Taiwan - I think the consensus has been that there is no Taiwan government anymore, since even if it was not nuked it probably would have been invaded by Chinese at some point.  So the Tuvaluan workers probably didn't get any of those back wages.  Benkarnell 18:34, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You should get in on the discussion on Taiwan. So far its got Taiwan taking some advantage of China's situation and claiming some mainland territory.--Oerwinde 18:47, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions Ben, I have deleted the Taiwan references for now until what exactly happened to Taiwan has been confirmed. My plan is to finish Tuvalu today, then move on to Norfolk island and finally Kiribati. --GOPZACK 21:11, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate only, any objections? --GOPZACK 21:37, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. Mitro 00:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'll add Belau to that list - since I had written so much Palauan/Belauan history in the Micronesia article, I figured I'd create the page. Now the Cook Islands are the only ANZC state without a page, hooray! It's funny that we're learning so much about these Pacific islands, yet most of Australia and New Zealand themselves remains a mystery. I guess it's just a big prject to tackle, since they're so important to the TL. The basic theme for Belau is that it's a somewhat ornery client state, which is reflected in its decision to push the native spelling of its name. Benkarnell 17:46, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate only, any objections? --GOPZACK 22:21, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

The Piedmont Republic
This is where I should have put this discussion in the first place. I am just getting used to this wiki stuff.

In finding the Republic of Blue Ridge, I was elated. That is just north of me (my daughter lives there in OTL). I live in Greenville and wondered what would have happened in the upstate of SC.

The nearest thing to the upstate has been information that Charlotte was nuked, and that Anderson, SC, is an African-American racist city state. Toccoa, GA, turns out to be its white racist counter-part after the fall of the Athens-based provisional government of Georgia.

To the south, Augusta, GA, is gone, as is the SC capital of Columbia. The four uptate SC counties bordering NC - Oconee, Pickens, Greenville, and Spartanburg - form the home of South Carolinian refugees. The Oconee Nuclear Power station has been damaged, but not destroyed, leaving the area mostly "in the dark," literally, though at first some energy may have been coming down from unaffected coal-fired facilities in what became the Republic of Blue Ridge. That disappears as it is re-routed or destroyed by early vandals in that developing republic.

I need some help in setting up a page for the article. Can anyone help me develop the page based on the templates available? --SouthWriter 21:52, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I got you started. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Piedmont_Republic_(1983:_Doomsday) --BrianD 22:56, January 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help. It is well on the way.  When do I get considered for "canonization"? --SouthWriter 20:07, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Once you are finished, say on the main talk page that you are ready for the article to be graduated.--BrianD 20:11, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have finished (for now). I think I have set down a good foundation.  I will flesh out some of the history later.  The Piedmont Republic is ready to graduate!  --SouthWriter 07:08, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone, take a look at the article, give your thoughts. I have no problem with graduating the article as is (though it needs to be completed) nor with the proposal in general. --BrianD 07:52, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

i have no problems with this article being graduated. two things: i like the flag. and 2nd: there seems to be a slight pro-christianity slant to the nation. wwas South Carolina religous enough for this to arise? the Former US Goverment was a secular goverment after all.--HAD 12:12, January 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * South Carolina is part of the "Bible Belt", a socially and religiously conservative (mainly Baptist) region. Greenville, the capital, is home of Bob Jones University, one of the few institutions left that still embraces the label "Fundamentalist".  The university first allowed interracial dating in 2000.  And the president of Piedmont appears to be part of the family that founded and still runs the university.  I know that there has been a growing movement in certain US religious groups to sort of re-combine church and state, and I know it began picking up steam in the 1980s.  In this place, presumably, the events of nuclear war caused the community to rely even more on their religion and make it part of their government, something many of them wanted to do even before.  Benkarnell 16:54, January 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * HAD, the government does indeed in practice act on a principle of separation of church and state, but there has been some debate here in the US for quite awhile now on whether the country's origins are Christian or secular. Even now in 2010, there are many places in the US where a large majority of people call themselves Christians, and would like society and their government to reflect their values. (Conversely, there are also many places in the US that are less religious, more secular and the people want their society and government to reflect those values). The religious right's influence has lessened considerably in the 2000s...but its influence was probably at its height in the 1980s. SouthWriter's observations on the Piedmont area of 1983 in regards to religion is spot on. In fact, without influence from American pop culture and media in the ensuing years, Christianity probably would have strengthened in influence in certain parts of the post-Doomsday US. I assumed this to be the case in West Texas (although there are plenty of rednecks who like to party, and some Baptists who like their beer :) ). Vermont would be either predominantly mainline Protestantism and some Catholicism, or agnostic. --BrianD 17:14, January 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you Ben and Brian. You have a good grasp on the world in which I grew into in the 1980's.  I moved to Greenville after graduating from the University of Georgia in Athens, beginning Grad school at Bob Jones University in the Spring Semester of 1976.  I was married in 1977 and finished grad school in 1980.  I have lived in Greenville ever since.  Though I am not strictly a "fundamentalist," my wife's family (mom and two half-brothers) are.  My late father-in-law was an ordained Fundamentalist Baptist.  My wife and I are conservative Presbyterians in the same denomination as our present Congressman and one of our Senators (the "most conservative politician in Washington"), proving that you don't have to be Baptist to be a conservative Christian.


 * Greenville has been called the "buckle" of the Bible Belt. Conservatives here find it hard to believe those who deny the Christian origins of the USA.  It is admitted that the founding fathers were ambiguous by design (assuring true freedom of religion), but to deny the influence of religion -- Christianity in general -- is considered ridiculous.  Besides, the "silent majority," and even the "Christian Coalition," have sought to establish undeniable "traditional" values as a given.  Though human nature has not changed, the rise of humanism in all its forms seems to have accentuated the bad side of Western civilization.


 * I look forward to fleshing out this article soon. The tension in Anderson (though I have a hard time picturing exactly how that quaint town could have gone the way it did) provides an excellent background for the rise of the secular base in Clemson (less than thirty miles from the city and bordering the county.  Other counties, like Laurens and Union, seem like obvious candidates to join the republic (or cede their lands to Greenville and Spartanburg).  Newberry and Greenwood, down nearer the strike zones, could be the source for either refugees or city-states torn with strife (and thus refugees of another sort).


 * And one more thing, Thank you HAD on your appreciation of the flag. --SouthWriter 06:03, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

The thing to remember is that when the bombs hit, everything changed. Our collective guess here seems to be that things turned upside down in a lot of places. There's no way to really know what would have happened if the bombs had fallen in 1983; Anderson, a quaint town in our timeline, could have gone any number of directions in such a scenario. I can't imagine mob leaders taking over small towns in Oregon and far northern California, but WWIII makes such a scenario sensible.

In reading through your comments, SouthWriter, I think I have come up with a scenario that might work well with your Piedmont proposal: This may work, or it may need work. That's what the talk pages are for, after all.--BrianD 07:28, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the Carolinas, regional governments arise in Asheville and Greenville, forming the origins for two future nations.
 * Athens falls apart; survivors, many of whom either helped spark the violence that destroyed the city or fought violently themselves just to survive, wind up in northeast Georgia.
 * Survivors in the region migrate to where large towns and small cities are known to still be around: Knoxville, Johnson City, Asheville, Greenville...Toccoa...Anderson.
 * At some point, charismatic, racist leaders among the white and African-American survivors in the Toccoa-Anderson region amass enough followers between them to pull together forces that threaten everyone else, including surviving law enforcement.
 * The racist gangs, for lack of a better term, are able to appeal to others of their own skin color and scapegoat the other group (perhaps blaming them for the deplorable state of the world they found themselves surviving in).
 * Despite the best efforts of other survivors, and local law enforcement, the two racist groups, together barely more than half of the total population, possess the most arms and ammunition - in short, they have the means to enforce whatever they want to do.
 * The two groups come into conflict, and go to war. People, both part of the gangs and innocent people, die.
 * The whites settle in Toccoa (a city that pre-DD wouldn't have wanted the racists there) and the blacks in Anderson (again, a city that pre-DD wouldn't have wanted the racists there). Both groups begin to practice slavery and plot war against one another, their mutual hatred almost blinding them from even acknowledging the existence of Piedmont (although they, for a time, accept humanitarian aid from Piedmont).
 * The Piedmont Republic steps into the fray to end the burgeoning. But they're walking into the equivalent of Iraq. Piedmont tries peacekeeping for a short time, but both sides fight a guerrilla war against their "oppressor", even successfully launching terrorist attacks in Piedmont itself.
 * The Republic responds by going to war, one against two who are united only in their hatred for their respective enemy - again, more people die (military and civilian alike).
 * Although the casualties are light, Piedmont leaders and citizens realize that a) Piedmont is going to have to occupy Toccoa/Anderson for the forseeable future, and deal with a populace that doesn't want it there (as well as more guerilla and terrorist attacks) b) Piedmont is going to have to go all-out to destroy the two camps, a strategy that might work only because Piedmont has a huge numerical advantage (and more 'expendable' soldiers) c) Piedmont can hold option b over Toccoa/Anderson's heads to encourage them to stick to an agreement where they leave Piedmont alone in exchange for Piedmont leaving them alone.
 * The population of Piedmont has swelled due to the number of refugees fleeing from Toccoa and Anderson.
 * To this day, Toccoa and Anderson are immersed in a cold war, pulling back from all-out conflict in fear of total destruction - if not from the hands of the other, then from a Piedmont that now boasts an army ten times potentially as big as both cities combined, and is 50 times more powerful than both.


 * Thank you, Brian, I think that scenario sounds about right. I think that the bulk of the forces will be pulled from Clemson and Pickens County.  This is because Clemson has an active ROTC, and a culture of racial diversity (at least in the University community).  Having made great strides in the 70's, they would be aghast at the warring gangs running the two towns.  The Greenville community would support Clemson, though, for both Anderson and Toccoa have Christian Colleges in them which would have had to have been over-run by the racists.  These Christians, if they escaped with their lives and were not part of the slave labor forces, would run to Clemson for refuge.  The word would spread to Central Wesleyan, North Greenville College, Bob Jones University, and Spartanburg Methodist, as students and faculty from Toccoa and Anderson sought places to continue their academic courses.  A large army could be raised to quell the violence and end the slavery in the warring towns.  The scenario of the "occupation" would only have to be maintained until the slaves had been freed.  After that, the cities could be "left alone" in their segregated enclaves.  A demilitarized zone, however, would have to be manned with Piedmont troops along both sides of the Savannah River.


 * I'll get to work on an article about the war of emancipation and the cold war that followed. --SouthWriter 19:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * SouthWriter - the creation of an Evangelical-run state makes sense for the region, but IMO the tone of the page should be more neutral. I'm specifically thinking of the "freedom from religion" part, where it should be clear that this is the opinion of most citizens, not of the "narrator".  Overall the page should reflect an unbiased observer's description of the country.  207.63.140.254 15:25, January 11, 2010 (UTC) (Benkarnell, at work)


 * Hi, Ben, thanks for your input. I need to remember that we are basically building an encyclopedia of this alternate world.  I see where I did insert the air quotes to present my opinion  I will remove that bias to reflect a more neutral position.  However, he leadership is not so much "evangelical" as it is conservative.  Governments even today, at least in South Carolina, do not "do business" on Sundays.  Some services, like postal services, are run on Saturdays, and commercial banks now also are open part or that time as well.  Otherwise, there is a "five day" week for most of the government.  Medical services, in their "regular" hours, are also on a five-day work week.  Most "blue laws" were either still in effect, or just beginning to be abolished in 1983 (it started with Christmas shopping at the Malls, one of which opened in 1980 in Greenville).  These were different in the different counties, Spartanburg having abolished the ban on Sunday openings first.  Commercialism and competition drove the law makers to change the status quo.


 * Concerning divorce and abortion -- important family-oriented laws -- these, too, are as much conservative issues as they are "religious." Traditional values are like that.  I chose to present these laws as having reverted back to the way the populous of the upstate, as a whole, would rather it be.


 * The issues of the drinking and smoking ages being changed, on the other hand, are a reflection of differing views of "Christian liberty." The Fundamentalist community, lead by Bob Jones University, of course, would have both drinking and smoking banned.  The raising of the drinking age to 25 is more of a tip of the hat to liberals than to conservatives, for social conservatives are divided as to the use of alcohol in moderation.  The reduction of the age for smoking, on the other hand, is a pragmatic decision to placate the tobacco industry which saw its base of customers shrinking.  It was thought that with mandatory education, and loss of supply in the foreseeable future, the age for smoking would soon be a moot point. --SouthWriter 19:20, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

THank you for the info, southwriter. and i agree with Bens above point. the article is accurate, if what i've heard is correct and considering whhat i've heard about S.C IN my History course, it probably is, the article should be neutral in tone, whatever it may be describing. and about Humanism, i think thats a good thing, placing human before god. we exsist. i ndon't think god does. (in my opinion, which is why i aviod any article to dop with religions).--HAD 18:33, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Khanate of Aralia
Shouldn't we make this at least an article? NewsHour referred to it, and hence it is automatically valid, right? I just want a "green light" to make the article. :) Edward Hannis 01:56, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing is automatically valid when it comes to 1983: Doomsday. Please read the  for a better explanation.  Also you might want to talk to User:Jpsarmento who was the one who wrote the headline in the first place.  Mitro 01:58, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know that, sorry. I simply made the wrong assumption that NewsHour was only based on things that were true without change (permanent), that hence the Khanate existed for sure. I guess I was wrong. Edward Hannis [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 02:38, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi,answering your question,yes,i think we should make an article on the Khanate of Aralia but i'm new here so i guess i'll need some help Jpsarmento 1:11,January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Created page (Khanate of Aralia (1983: Doomsday)) Edward Hannis  [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 00:05, January 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * CANONIZATION:The khanate is more or less completed, and there is little more to say, taken the fact that it is now part of Socialist Siberia (if canonized). I think it should be canonized. Any objections? Edward Hannis  [[File:CogHammer.gif]] 17:52, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking about creating a country like this in the past. Anyways I like most of what you have so far. Just a few things I would like to sort out. First off there might have been a target here. On Vozrozhdeniya Island (in the middle of the Aral Sea) there was a major bioweapons laboratory located here. This would make it among the highest priority targets in the Soviet Union. However as it was top secret I don’t know if anyone outside the Soviet Union even knew about its existence at the time. As the island is in the middle of nowhere if it got nuked it wouldn’t affect the sounding area that much (although it might irradiate parts of the Aral Sea). If it did survive I wonder what Aralia would do with the bioweapons. Perhaps use them against Siberia?

Also where did you get the name Aralia? Did you make it up or is it a real name? And why isn’t the city of Nukus part of this country? Finally I would like to point out that the region in the south of the sea is called Karakalpakstan. The majority of the people living here aren’t ethnic Uzbeks but Karakalpaks. They have a diferent language and culture than ordanary Uzbeks (infact some say they are closer related to Kazakhs, which makes this page even more beleaveable). I think they should be mentined as they would make up the majority of the population in this courntry.

Overall I like this page. You need to run this page by User:Vladivostok who manages the Soviet Siberia article before anything else just so he knows whats going on. However onece the issues I adressed are taken care of I would press this article for canonization.--ShutUpNavi 23:36, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Quad Cities Alliance
I need to know. What would happen to the Quad Cities area if Clinton, IA (about thirty miles northwest of Davenport) was nuked? Would Davenport still be standing?

--Jnjaycpa 05:02, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't see much to nuke in Clinton, IA. If for some reason Clinton was hit, it would be a small nuke indeed, or maybe even a conventional explosive (Megaton TNT).  Davenport would still stand.  Being between mega-target Chicago and the capital of Des Moines, the quad cities would be an obvious refuge for those fleeing from the still standing suburbs of those targets.--SouthWriter 17:42, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I also decided to nuke Cedar Rapids, IA and Peoria, IL. This would virtually isolate the QCA from the rest of the USA for a while. I think this will work--Owen1983 11:23, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

An article on Haiti that I will expand on in the future. Thoughts and comments appreciated--Vladivostok 21:51, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Federation of Greece
Awhile back I decided to have the CoG host a referendum on whether to tighten the power of the "central" government and make the nations come together into a Federation. Well, it was supposed to be New Year's Eve, 2009, and I suppose the time's come to write an article on the Confederation of Greece becoming the Federation of Greece. Now the CoG's page will become obsolete and I'll create a new article. Though one problem is; will I have to go back and now change every mention of the "Confederation" to "Federation", or only from henceforth when Greece is being mentioned say "Federation"? Mr.Xeight 01:01, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think that you would only need to change things that refer to them in the present. Anything that happened in the past would continue to reference the Confederation, as thats what it was then, mentions in foreign relations and such would need to be changed.--Oerwinde 08:54, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Oer. Mr.Xeight 16:25, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Aragonese Statelet(s)
I don't think I've ever told anyone this before, but I'm a bit of an "Aragonophile", reading most articles pertaining to Aragon and its colonies on the Il Bethisad site, and I've read some article on the kingdom, empire, crown, and language on Wikipedia. I was wondering, would at all be possible to create an Aragonese Statelet somewhere in the Huesca Valley or any other Aragonese speaking area? I'd personally make it a crowned republic, only because I'm partial monarchies, a person can rise to the top in this topsy-turvy world, and because we all know, monarchies are fun! The only thing I'm picturing at the moment is that there would be an upsurge in the Aragonese language and a man who survived the Apocalypse and became the dictator making Aragon into a crowned republic taking power for himself. Is this okay to do? Mr.Xeight 01:01, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

The would suit me perfectly. Mr.Xeight 01:03, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the Spain page, it looks like most of the area is under the control of the Iberian Confederation.--Oerwinde 09:45, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

IMHO the argonese speaking people are going to want there own place and i think Mr.Xeight has a good idea --Owen1983 14:14, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Owen, Aragonese nationalism is almost dead. The Chunta Aragonesista would have to implement Aragonese back into society and eventually their plan of making Aragonese the most widely-spoken language would take awhile. It no doubt have to be forced to be spoken and taught at school, used for business, as a ecclesiastical language, etc until the people in the area who don't use it at home start to. Oer, I noticed that last night. Through the innacurate use of eyeballing, by the looks of it Zaragoza, the Chunta Aragonesista's HQ and the old capital of the Aragonese Empire is not under IC control, fortunately, though a good chunk of northern & western Aragon is, unfortunately. So, I suppose the CA (I'm too lazy to write out Chunta Aragonesista each time) could offer a stable government in Zaragoza, using Aragonese nationalism and the failure of the Castillian Government to take care of its people to get them control. Eventually they'd expand and this is where I can become most useful...
 * Power-struggles make strange bedfellows. You guys can all clearly tell as all-knowing gods of this alt-universe Greece is as land-hungry as Sicily. So, the Greeks could begin to look west for control. Now they see the Aragonese State, in-power, but vulnerable. So a partnership begins: Greeks and Aragonese working together to save Europe and Iberia. Now Aragon would be able to resist becoming a satellite-state of Greece, though Aragon becomes smiliar to Algeria, siding with Greece over Sicily and getting small-scale Greek aid, as well as Greece to recognize it as a sovereign nation, saying Aragon has right to the lands controlled by the IC, helping to stablize its control over any fringe lands, such as the coast, and an upsurg ein Greek merchants in the western port-cities.

Mr.Xeight 16:24, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Another possibility is that the Iberian confederation is an alliance of several Juntas in the region. Maybe an extremely nationalistic Junta joins the confederation, and maneuvers its way into the lead role, instituting some changes to the confederation including Aragonese as the national language. The IC was mainly formed to defend against Basque invasion, and they are less of a threat now, so the IC could be somewhat unstable at this point, nothing much has been written about it after 1997 except that it added a new Aragonese Junta in 2007. So this could be perfect. It looks like almost half of the confederation is Aragonese, so this could be plausible. Tristanbreiker is responsible for the corresponding articles though so you'd have to get his sayso I suppose. Zaragoza was hit according to the spain page so I don't think it would be a major hotbed of Aragonese nationalism, though it would be ripe for reclaimation.--Oerwinde 19:21, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's truly a great idea, Oer. Thanks alot! :) I'll run it by Tristan. A bombing of Zaragoza puts a rather damper on things though. But one of the most important things I need to do is look up the presidents of the Chunta Aragonesista, of course there's no doubt whoever was Pres. of the party at the time was in Zaragoza, what should I do to finda suitable president? Mr.Xeight 00:32, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I normally do is make someone up. The Doomsday situation is going to bring out a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten into a leadership role, so if you can't find someone real, I don't see a big deal with making someone up.--Oerwinde 01:28, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Cooperstown
Upon reading of the plans for a new baseball & football hall of fame it got me thinking about Cooperstown, could a city state there be possible? (I'm not to sure what was nuked in that area so if anyone knows let me know, thanks)--GOPZACK 17:37, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure, Zack. I believe the assumption has been that it would be much harder to establish a surviving city state in the Northeast corridor, because of the massive amount of hits it would have taken in a US-Soviet conflict. But it certainly is open for any editor who can come up with a plausible, and interesting, scenario for New York state (or anywhere else) to do so. --BrianD 15:49, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cooperstown would not have been hit, and conceivably could be a site for a survivor community because it is located on the south end of Ostego Lake. The question is how much of New York state was livable after Doomsday? I postulated that refugees were pouring into Vermont because things got hellish in NY state. --BrianD 15:49, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think that there could be a survivor state even when refugees left the state. In fact I think this would be a blessing in disguise for those who would undoubtably remain. There would be less people in the state, meaning less crime and less strain on food and other resources. The more the population decreases from refugees and casualties, the better chance the remainder has for survival. --Yankovic270 16:15, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

East Tennessee
Article I created for the provisional nation of east Tennessee. East Tennessee (1983: Doomsday) --BrianD 15:53, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hattiesburg
Article I created for the provisional nation of Hattiesburg, in OTL southern Mississippi. Hattiesburg (1983: Doomsday) --BrianD 15:53, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I plan to start on the Hattiesburg and East Tennessee articles, and expand on the Blue Ridge history article, Monday. --BrianD 19:50, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created. Riley.Konner 10:07, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is placed to focus on things covering decisive, vital issues concerning the consistency of 1983: Doomsday as a whole and the Timeline specifically. PLease treat this section with the necessary respect and place things not belonging here below !! Comments of non-registered users will not be tolerated in this Talk section! This TL is not without flaws, and especially in the first time (me myself) a lot of things were inserted out of curiosity or not spending much time on repercussions. And due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now each of these flaws might have world-spanning consequences... I will focus on identifying and eliminating those flaws/inconsistencies to strengthen the basis of the TL and prevent repercussions on the excellent contents written at all fronts. This of course in the established manner of consensus and discussions! I bring this up as a consequence of the "Canal discussion" further below with the intention keeping an eye on above mentioned things.'' Objections? --Xi&#39;Reney 22:14, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Saguenay War
if 1983 Doomsday was real what would you opinion be

here is my opinion Canada started the war not Saguenay it wouldd not surprise me if the assasination was sponsored by these Neo Nazi thugs who call themselves the Canada First Party --Owen1983 23:32, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI, the Canada First party are not "Neo-Nazi thugs" as you claim. They merely support Canadian isolationism.--71.52.245.246 20:43, December 29, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous92


 * If it were real I wouldn’t want either side to fight in this pointless war (if it were real, the war serves a good purpose for this timeline). Now if I had to take sides I would pick Canada. Regardless if the assassination was sponsored by Canada itself, Saguenay is still starting a war over the death of one man. Starting a war is hardly an appropriate response to that, and scores of innocent people are going to die as a result. And we don’t even know if it was just the political party or a lone extremist. The fact that Saguenay is carving out a puppet state out of former Canadian territory seems to prove to me they weren’t starting this war in defense. --ShutUpNavi 00:16, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

after reading this I am not going to take any sides becuse there both been stupid starting a war becuse one guy got shot and we are not sure if this was sponsored by Canada and i think Sagueney have reacted without understanding he fact and canada has acted on them there are no winner or losers in war only stupid poeple--Owen1983 00:58, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The war is being fought over for more than just the assassination, similarly to how the First World War was fought over for more than the death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. However I would not like to take sides. I would prefer to treat this with a neutral point of view. --DarthEinstein 03:10, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Saguenay feels threatened by Canada due to its claim on their territory, which is recognized by the international community, plus Canadian controlled territory surrounded them on 3 sides. Saguenay is the major stronghold of French separatism in Quebec, so there's years of resentment built up. The assassination was the spark on the powder keg, though obviously if they reacted so as quickly as they did they had been planning for it as an inevitability. Superior got on board as a means to solidify their hold on Canadian territory on the great lakes, and Canada is the defender. If I were to choose sides here I would be siding with Canada, but I understand why Saguenay did it. Superior I would see as opportunistic land-grabbers and what we know today as a "Rogue State"--Oerwinde 00:42, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Gathering Order
i think we need to talk about the gathering order. the amount of US kit the CANZ ended up with is quite important. --HAD 18:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to know is why did you remove the ships that you did? What was your reasoning?  Were they in South Pacific at the time, etc.?  Mitro 01:48, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

my reaeasoning is that we know for definate the the nimitz group survived doomsday, but that the other groups were nuked. as for the other ships,, apart from the Benjimmin Frabklin, i dpon't know what happened to them. and if i remember the guidelines: if in doubt, it weas nuked. --HAD 18:56, January 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless the ships were at port, its unlikely they were nuked.--Oerwinde 11:29, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

what if they were attacked from Soviet Submarines? Anyway, i thought from re ading the article reading the artile about the nimitz trhat she was the only surviving she and her battle USN battlegroup. --HAD 13:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

That's right, we've talked quite a bit about the allied ships after Doomsday, what happened to all the Soviet ships? Was there a "Soviet Gathering Order"? Could some of these ships have continued the war several months or years into the post-Doomsday world? --DarthEinstein 17:30, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I did mention some ships getting to safe, Siberian-controlled bases, but that's it. Are you looking for a specific number?--Vladivostok 17:42, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

what we need mis a group consenous on how many ships survied. even if say, 3 USN battlegroups ssurvived, i don't think the CANZ could afford to maintaki all those ships. i still thibnnk those ships we don't know about should not be included on the ,list. what we know is whart we see, in m,my opinion. aftere all, a USN aircraft catrrier/submarine/whatever is a very powerful thing. a single Kidd class destroyer could take out most of thwe BRAZILLIAN NAVY. --HAD 19:46, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because the ANZC couldn't maintain the ships doesn't mean they should be destroyed. If they're more advanced than the Australian navy, its likely Australian ships would be retired in favor of the american ones. The retired vessels could then be sold to other nations, or possibly granted to ANZC associated states. --Oerwinde 21:00, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

your probably right. my point was not if not if the aussies could maintain the ships, but could they afford to? also, the revised gathering order was based on a hypothetical Nimitz carrier battle group as it might have exsisted in 1983.--HAD 23:24, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

I've seen on the Gathering Order page that some UK ships (including the HMS Fearless) responded to it. From an abortive research project into creating a survivor nation in Weymouth I discovered that the Fearless, along with several other ships, was on maneouvres around the area, and would likely have been destroyed as Weymouth/Portsmouth (being the RN HQ) would have been nuked. Exactly what ships were where on Doomsday I'm not sure, though I know for a fact that the Fearless was in proximity to Weymouth on the 23rd of September (or 19th, I'm not sure). --Fegaxeyl 11:56, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

When I wrote the Gathering Order we were not in the stage of well-detailed consensus thinking, not yet. The Nimitz ANZS Commonwealth was canon and said surviving along with the Franklin in the earliest version of the timeline...(btw, a Nimitz Carrier Group indeed existed) So I kept it, even though the NImitz was quite an easy choice as its role in alternate history movie :):) Later on i tink JBALthist entered this huge list of U.S. ships (I didnt know the U.S. Navy was "that" massive..) and we did never really go into depth discussing this...
 * I guess the CANZies would try to maintain what they can, wreck most of their own military hardware. Problem is that the Australiana/Kiwis even together do no bear enormous capacities and resources/ infrastructure to host and maintain all hardware. Not talking about the costs of such things. I guess most would be decomissioned and destroyed (huge shipwreckin industry then) to keep it away from 3rd parties hands...
 * Decisive would be to see if essential know-how can be ke`pt/ transferred. e.g. U.S. specialists, Imagine the difficulties especially with the nuclear-powered submarines and carriers. and then consider the Kiwi attitude towards nuclear fission...

hmm. a lot of thoughts... but given the recent lecture of the OTL 1982 Falkland War and the difficulties even a not-destroyed United Kingdom had to maintain and deploy a fleet capable of reconquering the Falklands... I would really limit the maintained number of vessels... ANZC keeping the nuclear submarines as long-range monitoring scout ships (see the Franklin) commanded by the WCRB Submarine Expedition Corpse or sth alike ? and the Nimitz carrier group, maybe one other large nuclear carrier...Defense vessels protecting the Australian NOth Cost, a transport fleet, protective cruisers7frigates for convoys between the the associated territories...

Maybe the ADC-nations will be ablte o keep up a quite strong navy structure as it is essential for them. Given a strong military coop with he ANZUS, APA...

Also useful could be a Anti-Piracy fleet...o protect essential aid convoys etc...

taking up the Medifleet Idea I could imagine lots of ships, maybe some small carriers even (helicopters e.g.) being maintained jointly by SAC, ANZC, LoN to provide fast crisis intervention and help with recon or international, world wide humanitarian missions. those ships, a LoN-fleet painted in white maybe could be stripped off every offensive weaponry. Would keep the sailors occupied, provide a tes ground for international cooperation etc.

For the moment that´s it... have to read a load of information you guys put here in the past time..--Xi&#39;Reney 23:28, January 11, 2010 (UTC)