Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

Sign Up?
I really want to sign up for this game, seeing how sucessful the last one was. However, I'm afraid I'll screw up the rules (which seem solid but are extensive and complicated) and be a detriment rather than an asset to the game. Should I sign up? CourageousLife (talk) 02:26, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

It will be fairly easy to learn all the rules, especially since many won't come into play until later. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:04, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to sign up for this game. The first one sounded really interesting, but by the time I heard of it, it was already in the 1950s. Ehh... do I sign up here?

The Royal Guns (talk) 13:08, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Is there a rule against copy and pasting moves for turns? If not, there should be it makes the game horridly boring. PM I towards the end got really boring because all you would ever see was "amp up the military." It would be better and more interesting if people varied their posts.AP (talk) 17:18, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Though it is boring, there's no real rule against it. The main trouble with copy-pasting is that often that means the player doesn't read other peoples posts. But that doesn't need a specific punishment, as it usually brings about its own punishment. (see RWG's Persia in the last game)

TBH, I'm starting to get a bit bored with PM1, that's why I can't wait for this one to start. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:56, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Amazing how I feel the same. Right now I'm waiting for 1999, I'm going to create a 9/11-esque Red Claw terrorist attack. Just to spice up the game a little bit.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 19:34, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Erm...are we going to paly this here or is there going to be a page for it (and not Lurk's subpage)? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:29, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to move the page, changing it's title from "User:LurkerLordB/Principia Moderni II" to "Principia Moderni II (Map Game)" when the last turn begins in PM1, with the game beginning 24 hours later as PM1 closes. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:34, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

IKR! The first one has got boring, the only reason why I am not warring over the significant amount of territory lost. :P Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:56, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Moderator-in-chief
Last game we had a moderator-in-chief, Detectivekenny. Though we don't really need one, it did make some things easier. To clarify, the powers a moderator-in-chief would have: I nominate myself to be lead moderator, as I have taken a fairly leading role in developing this game. However, other long-term, active moderators of the last game, such as Collie, Yankovic, or Crimson could be the leader as well, if they wanted. Would people want a leader, and does anyone else want to be the leader? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:31, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) To appoint moderators
 * 2) To moderate other moderation (say whether a mod event/ruling should be valid)
 * 3) Provide basic leadership (sometimes, just having one person to be the leader helped make things easier)

I think we should abolish the post. I believe we should simply have capable moderators (meaning those who are capable to do their assigned jobs) who are also able to balance each other out. If everyone does want a chief, though, you have my vote, Lurk. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:47, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I could have a shot at being a mod once again? Thanks. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 01:27, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

You are still signed up as normal mod, would you want to run for mod in chief? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:45, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Naw, I think you'd make a better 'in chief. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 03:04, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Lurker, you've got my vote. You've done a heck of a lot since Kenny left. However you won't receive any additional powers. I'd also like to ask if I could get the role of PM tutor for new players. I find I am relatively proficient at teaching other people... Scandinator (talk) 06:23, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I vote for Lurker.i ain't focused enough to do this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:56, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Time Zones?
Hey everyone, since there is a lot of attention here I propose to change the start time of a turn from 00:00 UTC to 12:00 UTC. This allows for me to consistantly post the disaster events (which affect the entire spin of the turn) and also allows less confusion since a turn will start on the same date for everyone instead of year x starting today at 10am for me and yesterday at 4pm for LurkerLord. If this happens I will be happy to start off each new turn and post maps at the start of every 5 years since the turn starts at 10 (or 11 during DST) pm which is a much easier time for me to edit than 10am or 11am (I am in class or exams :S). Since I will be graduating in 4 weeks and won't start uni till March its not a major issue atm but will become one after I start university. Scandinator (talk) 06:37, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Actually 0000 UTC is a bad time for several players who live in the UK or far west, like California or the Pacific Coast. I agree in changing it to 1200 UTC. Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:42, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Omg, that would make things SOOO much easier for me (and probably Von) to post!! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 20:58, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Having it start 12 hours earlier makes it so I can't post any moderator events, as I will be in school at 8:00 AM for me, so I would prefer keeping it at 8:00 PM for me, when I can easily edit. However, if more people will prefer to have an earlier start, I can adjust. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:05, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I also wouldn't be able to do those events on lurk's place, as at 12:00 utc, i would be unavailable.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:21, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps another time would work? I would be availible for usually a couple hours before 0:00 UTC, and usually for up to three hours after. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:32, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well then lets see when the mods can post. My times are between 2000 to 2130 and 0600 to 1300 UTC(one hour earlier between October and April). Changing the time will affect several mods and players so we will have to see when is the best time and not everyone will be happy... However the mapmaker and disaster mod need priority and later so will the revolt mod. Since Lurker and Collie live about -5 and me on +10 I suggest a time of 1000 UTC? Scandinator (talk)

To be honest, shifting the time more than a 3 or so hours away from 0:00 won't really help me at all, so if you need it changed, we could probably change it then.

Or, we could do the thing where we make the mod events and the new turn before people can edit it, so we all can post events without having to wait for the new turn to begin. The only problem with this is that people could meta-game and see events coming up that would effect their nation and edit their turn accordingly.

Also, for this game, can we please enforce the rule where you can edit only on one turn at a time? Maybe two hours max grace period where someone can edit the just-ended turn, but we had things like people editing the last turn 9 hours after it ended and stuff. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I think Scan's second idea works better. And come to think of it, if we switched to 12 UTC, I wouldn't be able to post until 17 UTC, my free period.

Argh...oh well, I suppose whatever works best for the mods is best for us.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

So we change it to 21:00 UTC? That way I can update first thing in the morning and LurkerLord as soon as he gets back from school. Collie is this time ok? Scandinator (talk) 05:24, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hrm... I think maybe 20-21 UTC would be the best- it would be 5-6 ish in DC and that's the time I'm most active. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:07, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

20-21 UTC is great. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:44, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

21:00 UTC it is :D Scandinator (talk) 23:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

OK, now that we have settled on a better time, can we establish an end to posting stuff after a turn ends? Exceptions such as replying to something, clarifying something, changing a name, or moderation. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:19, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should keep the times the same... Saamwiil (talk)

@ LurkerLord, one hour at most, I'm sick of these discussions on banning so we delete the post the first time and then ban on the second for three days. Obviously moderation, and minor changes are allowed.

@Saamwill, this decision was made to allow at least four mods to be on at the start time (Lurker, Pita, Collie and I). Therefore I won't miss out on posting the mod event (lol at PM epidemics) and thus it is more fair and consistant. Scandinator (talk) 06:58, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wait...we're starting at 5 or 4 PM eastern time depending on daylight savings... I would rather 12:00 UTC (7 or 8 AM)...so that I can edit at 9 or 10 PM on the next turn...when I am usualy active...but 21 UTC can work.-Lx (leave me a message) 02:15, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

That was the best time for the most moderators to be able to post moderator events and maps, 12:00 UTC is a horrible time for me. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:24, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

TBH I was okay with the old time, but maybe instead if a mod event is planned for the next upcoming turn/year we should just post it while the current turn is going on. E.g. if I wanted to add a mod event about an earthquake happening in Greece in 1451, then I would post the mod event during the 1450 turn. By doing this we stamp out the time zone problem completely and people know for definite what is happening mod event wise during that turn. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:22, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Conquest of Constantinople
In 1453 the Ottomans captured constantinople and dissolved the empire in month and some days. I was wondering if it was such a short war that an algorithm wasn't needed, I wanted to follow some of the empire's early historie. Saamwiil (talk) 22:55, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

The seige lasted for a year. Ottomans have 13 military points in the algorythm if they wish to attack Constantinople. Scandinator

Well from Friday April 6, 1453 to Tuesday May 29, 1453. Saamwiil (talk) 11:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Making algorithm Better
I was just wondering about a few thing that could modify the algorithm to make it more historically accurate: Just some sugestions... Saamwiil (talk) 23:20, August 29, 2012 (UTC) LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:39, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Golden Age, say like a 50 year period where nation gets +15 war score, (can also do other stuff)
 * Tactics, say 1 point for every ten years researching Officers.
 * Navy size, navies have won a lot of wars, say this counts as military research so your military research score doesen't go down (but doesn't go up), but you can say count the navy for the last 20 turns or something.
 * Overall preparedness- the average city wall to a city in your nation is very thick vs. very thin,
 * Best Leader- the best leader a country would ever have, great commander, this could say give a 3 point bonus.
 * If your capital is near the border with another country you could lose 4 points.
 * Being awesome- +500 lol, jk
 * Leader of faith- Like the Papal states, or the Ottoman Empire after they beat Persia.
 * 1) We currently have a system implemented that your score is raised if you have a government change, have an unstable government, and then have a popular revolt (like what happened with Napoleon or Hitler) for about 10 years, as those are small periods of intense military power. Nations that are neither new nor really old already have a bonus
 * 2) Tactics would fall under the preparing the military bonus.
 * 3) Naval power would fall under the preparing the military bonus.
 * 4) Overall preparedness would too.
 * 5) Best leader won't work, as then everyone would always have a great leader arise in their nations before they had any wars.
 * 6) A badly situated capital could be a small factor, but I can't think of any historical scenario where this makes a big difference. If the area is taken or attacked, the government can leave.
 * 7) (joke)
 * 8) This would just encourage more people to join you in any war motivated by religion.

Also, military updating was changed to +2 instead of just +1, so developing your navy and training leaders (which could be part or all of your update) would count more important. You could build up your navy, army, and train leaders all in one turn if you wanted, it would just still count as 1. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:50, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

What I meant for best leader would be like a period of 10 years in your nation history which you could use, like Suleyman the Magnificent or Queen Elizebeth. And for navy, a nation could have a strong army and no navy to support it therefore useless, I personally think they should be two. Btw, thx for telling me about the change! I would've been lost... Saamwiil (talk) 04:28, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Start Date
So, will we start tomorrow? The Royal Guns (talk) 00:43, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Depends what time zone you are in whether it is tomorrow or just later today. Going by Wiki time (UTC) it is later today, going by my time zone it is tomorrow. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:11, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

1450 mod events
Im pretty sure that the description for the Original Principia Moderni was like the Mod events from 1450 but for the nations of the people that joined in the Original PM. what I'm saying is that it would be better if the Description were to be deleted and switched to the Mod events regarding each Nation. And Also, the Russians at that point just paid tribute more like a bribe to the Golden horde just for insurance so that they would not have to deal with war...the states in Russia actualy led their own foreign policy and everything. -unsigned post by someone

If you are equating the 2 lines in the original PM intro about the current state of the world to Scandinator's much more detailed summary, then it should be obvious why we are switching. However, we aren't going to delete the intro of the original game, it is 592 days too late to add moderator events to that turn. The Russian event says nothing about them going to war with the Golden Horde. Also, I would say having to pay a large tribute to prevent yourself from being conquered would fall under being dominated by the Golden Horde. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:26, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Time?
Right then, it is now well past 03:00 UTC. Start?

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:40, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

We start at 21:00 UTC. That means in 18 hours. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:42, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. My bad. I spoke twelve hours early. I incorrectly thought it meatn 2100 EDT, not 2100 UTC.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:44, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really understand the whole UTC, EDT, etc thing. The Royal Guns (talk) 12:51, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

UTC = Universal Time Coordinate

EDT = Eastern Daylight Time

Basiclly it has to do with time zones. -Kogasa 2012年9月04日 21:54:14 (JST)

AHH thank you. The Royal Guns (talk) 14:30, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hype
Just a few hours left until the game starts. Anyone got some good music to listen to for anticipation? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 20:17, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NwP3wes4M8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot9LhcVWF2s

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:18, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HN-SG55F0

Or at least it's mine anyway, lol. -Kogasa 2012年9月05日 05:20:32 (JST)

GANGNAM STYLE! LOL! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0

PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:56, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Atlantic islands
On the map, what about the Atlantic islands? they are shown as not being settled, but in 1451, there already were towns on Madeira being recognized a such (ex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machico), and the Azores (at least the eastern islands) were already being settled by 1450.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:43, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. - how many military points Portugal has on the algorythm?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:46, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Castille

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: Castille (L), Milan (S):6
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 7 (religious)
 * Chance:4
 * Edit count=95
 * 2*1*5*6=30
 * 95/30*pi=9.94
 * Nation Age: 5 (Old nation)
 * Population:17
 * 7 digits in population
 * More than five times larger than Granada +10
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:54

Granada

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Granada (L), Aq Qoyunlu (M), Marinids (M), Zayyanids (M), Mamluks (M):15
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance:5
 * Edit count=335
 * 2*2*1*6=24
 * 335/24*pi=43.85
 * Nation Age: +5 (Old Nation)
 * Population:7
 * 7 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:58

Result
Currently Grandan victory. Granada can take ((58/(58+54)*2)-1=3.57% of Castillan territory or 246 px at most, The war lasted 1 year so Granada gets 123px of territory.

Discussion
First Algorithm! You get to be used as the example algorithm on the rules page! Also, remember, that other nations can still come in and send military aid to Castille or Granada. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:57, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Milan said they supported Castille. It is implausible for them to send military aid, but not implausible for them to send supplies since they are a center of trade, so that is what I put them down as. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:36, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Can I end the war so I can build up my infastructure and economy then attack Castille again when I'm stronger. Will Granada still existing effect the formation of Spain? But if I can still end the war it's over now. And I will not stand for it if Castille immediatly attacks me again. Willster22 (talk) 23:56, September 4, 2012 (UTC) P.S Before the war ends add the Mamluks.

You can end the war in 1451 if you want (it needs to last at least 1 year if you want any territory) LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ok the war ends in 1451. But my question still stands, will Granada surviving effect the formation of Spain? Willster22 (talk) 00:53, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Spain was formed by Aragon and Castille entering dynastic union. As both are player nations, they could either join in union like OTL or not. As for Granada surviving, in OTL they survived until 1492, so this victory does not mean they have won... LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:25, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't this war effect the real-life Granada War as me winning this war would demoralize Castille. If I prepare for a future war I could declare war later and gain more territory then change my name to Andalucia. That would probably stop Spain from forming. Muslim Europe! (: (Well I guess more like Muslim Spain ): Willster22 (talk) 01:35, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

We'll have to see what happens. By the way, the Arabic name for Andalucia was Al-Andalus, so if they remain Muslim they would probably use the Arabic version. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:39, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry forgot so later when I gain more territory in Spain I will be renamed Al-Andalus. Willster22 (talk) 01:40, September 5, 2012 (UTC) P.S and will the war end at the beginning of 1451 or the end?

No, it will be most likely be called Andalucía; yes, the official language of most taifas (including Granada) was Andalusian Arabic, but the main language spoken by the people was a Romance language,. Sure, the ruling elite would officially call it Al-Andalus, but Andalucía would stick rather quickly. Fed (talk) 02:07, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter for territory purposes. You can have it end whenever you want, you won (albeit narrowly). LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:44, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

By the percentage how many pixels can I take from Castille? Willster22 (talk) 01:47, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

So a higher a elite of nobles, generals, and emirs that speak Arabic and lower classes that speak Mozarabic. Now that will change in a few decades as Arabic shall become more enforced and Islam shall be taught in school strictly. Everybody has to know the first half of the Koran in Grade 3 now. Jk!! Mozarabic will still be latinized just so I have something to use for names as finding transliteration for Arabic is impossible but Mozarabic will have more principles of Arabic added to it, including righting from the right to the left. Willster22 (talk) 03:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I have some trouble figuring out how Milan is helping Castille in military or supplies since they don't have a coastline and just got owned by Venice a few years ago .-. Scandinator (talk) 07:06, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm happy with the result and i think that really it feeds more divergence and the future itself with this result in the iberian peninsula. But one thing I would advise is that "Do not get ahead of events," I know this with defeat, but the events and what will happen will not have to determine one, if not several. I from Andalusia (Andalucía is the name in Spanish) and the term of al-Andalus (al-Ándalus in spanish) is of the muslim territories in Iberia, NOT THE SOUTHERN AUTONOMOUS COMUNNITY OF THE SPAIN: ANDALUSIA. Greetings, Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos (talk) 10:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC).

If the war lasts for one year, Granada gains 210 px or 10,500 sqkm of area, if it lasts for two Granada gains 315px or 15750 sqkm. And I cbb going further. The maximum is 419px though. Scandinator (talk) 11:41, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

It will last for 2 years then with me gaining 315px so then I can look much for threatening on the map. Willster22 (talk) 13:14, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Morroco AND THE Marinids are the same people!!!!!!!!! Willster22 (talk) 13:58, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly.The Marinids are just their ruling dynasty.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:55, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Aragon
Hey everyone, a topic of somewhat importance.

AwesomePeruvian is taking a break from the site. It's quite a long one. He's asking me to take care of Aragon for him. I think I should give it to someone else, but he asked me to do so.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:48, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

In 1451 I could post something about Aragon's monarch suddenly dying and having his heir want to marry into another family, which could put it in dynastic union with whichever nation is the nation of the person who will control it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Actually he asked me to get Castille into the HRE somehow. I think if you could do that it would be good.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:45, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Castille into the HRE???? No way is that happening. Only states bordering the HRE that are christian and Frankish, Germanic or Italian can enter. And the Emperor would not let a large state join, they would be a challenge to his power. Scandinator (talk) 06:44, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

To get Castille into the HRE would require them to annex like all of France and Aragon. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:48, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sign Ups
Ok, we have 42 sign ups as of right now. I don't care whether its the Queen of England herself signing up or Obama, but I'm removing anyone from the map and list if they haven't posted by 1455 or told us they are on wiki break. I'm literally out of colours with the map... Scandinator (talk) 07:46, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Missing islands on the map
Hey there are a fair few islands missing off the map completely, can we add these islands onto the map? From what I see we're missing the following:

I will do the following, Scandinator (talk) ​I was unable to find data for these islands, Scandinator (talk)
 * Bermuda-will add 1px
 * St. Helena-will add 2px
 * Tristan da Cunha islands-will add two largest at 2px each
 * Crozet islands-will add three largest 3px, 3px, 1px
 * The Seychelles-will add two largest 3px, 1px
 * The Maldives-will put in a few 1px islands
 * The Cocos islands-too small
 * The Lakshadweep islands-too small
 * The Chagos archipelago-will add largest 1px
 * Palau- will add largest 7px
 * Easter island-will add 3px
 * Caroline islands
 * Northern Mariana islands - will add five largest: 1 px (Agrihan), 1px (Pagan), 2px (Saipan), 2 px (Tinian), 2 px (Rota)
 * Marshall islands - the whole archipelago would only have four pixels. so, the islands will be too small to add.
 * Nauru-too small
 * The Gilbert islands (and the rest of the islands in Kiribati too)
 * Tonga - 15 px.
 * All the small Fijian islands to the east of the main island of Fiji
 * The Cook islands
 * Most of the islands in French polynesia

There are some more of I'm going out soon so I need to cut this list short. Anyway any chance of having these islands added to the map? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:39, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Depends.one pixel is equivalent to 50 sq km. so islands with much less than 50 sq km (i will try to give a margin of error) won't be shown.one example is the Mariana islands. only five of them 15 will be able to be shown: Pagan, Agrihan, Saipan, Tinian and Rota.This rule also is why the island of Corvo, Azores, also can't be shown.it has only 17 sq km, which would mean that it could be represented with 1/3 of a pixel.However, Palau is big enough to be shown.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'll try to add ones that are larger than 30sqkm this weekend. Scandinator (talk) 22:03, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Could we not just have 1 pixel just to represent these islands which are too small? E.g. the total area of the Maldives is 298 km2 but because no one island is bigger than 30 sqkm we don't show it. Therefore I think we just have a few pixels to represent the islands being there in that 50sqkm zone. I don't think its right to just ignore these small islands and act like they aren't there, after all many of them would serve good as strategic naval bases and have natural resources so nations would try to take them over. We'll probably just forget about them if we leave them out the map. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:00, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Maledives I will add since the separate islands are somewhat clustered. I am considering adding significant islands which are too small as 1px... Scandinator (talk) 03:04, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues
I thought I'd create this section to deal with various issues we find on the map (maybe the above section should be moved here). Anyway,

Can a color for Majapahit be added to the map? Perhaps a dark purple.Flagmania (talk) 20:27, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we have any colors left.i will try to get a color for you and your vassals.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:33, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I am considering making a permanent map issues section at the top of the talk page so we don't have a new one of these every five days. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:38, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

The color for Majapahit and its vassals can be the same one. Also, the Ottoman's eastern border is different on the Europe map than on the world maps.Flagmania (talk) 21:16, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, this is because the EWurope map is earlier than the world map, so the Eastern beyliks hadn't been added. and i couldn't edit the Europe map, as i don't have the means to add back those characters..--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:41, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Any color would work, but if you need ideas, here are some:

Flagmania (talk) 22:29, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

China

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: China (L), Dai Vet (MV), Korea (MV), Manchuria (M): 11
 * Military Buildup: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5 (Moral Friend)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count=2,627
 * 2*1*1*7=14
 * 95/30*pi=9.94
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population:+18
 * 8 digits in population
 * Population is between 5-10 times larger than Oirat
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total: 65

Oirat Khanate

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Oirats (L): +4
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance: 4
 * Nation Age: -5 (Ancient Nation)
 * Population:7
 * 7 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:35

Result
Chinese victory. China can annex ((65/(65+35)*2)-1=30% of Oirats territory, depending on how long the war lasts.

Discussion
Korea has pledged help also, in return for some independence form Chinese affairs. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 22:36, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

There is no plausible way China (which was the most populous nation on earth at this time) had over 10,000,000 people! Beijing alone (the largest city in both the world and in China) had just 600,000 people at this time.Flagmania (talk) 20:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC) >>>>>>>

CrimsonAssassin (talk) 22:21, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Please Remember
Please remember that you can't build up your military and expand/fight in a war in the same turn. This is to keep people from constantly updating their military and still expanding and warring. Also, know that if you devote your turn to neither expansion nor military updates, and use it instead to help the economy and infrastructure of your nation multiple times, I might notice and give your nation some sort of reward.

NOTE: Once colonial expansion begins, it won't count as expansion for the algorithm or the turn. See the rules page for more details LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:46, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Discovery of the Americas
So, for the discovery of the Americas, I have a plan: In 1490, I will look back at the last 40 years and see which nations that border the Atlantic and Pacific Oceanshave spent the most time exploring and working on new ships instead of just warring and expanding. This won't be the only factors, others that will apply will be how they border the oceans (for example, Mediterranean nations will have a harder time than nations that border the Atlantic proper), how united and strong they are, and whether they already have strong shipping and exploration (like Portugal, Genoa, or Venice).

Then have some sort of event (such as an explorer wishing to sail across the sea, or coming back from across the sea claiming he accidentaly crashed on a new island) that will give the option to any nations that have fufilled the above paragraph's requirements well, and ask them to fund the venture. Whichever one has the best offer and most plausible chance of doing so can then fund an exploration to the Americas. They then will get 15 years of being exclusively able to colonize the Americas. Then anyone else with a seaport and plausible ability to colonize can begin.

Is this a good plan? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:52, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I think it sound good. However, I feel the need to ask - does the discovery of the Americas by the Old World nations garuntee the destruction of native civilizations (i.e. Maya, Zapotec, etc.)? CourageousLife (talk) 23:12, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Probably- depends on who discovers them. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 23:18, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just gonna say it, that just plain sucks... CourageousLife (talk) 23:19, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

dont worry if i have the luck to be the first in reach america i'll make an alliance with you ok Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:20, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

As long as it's plausible. Thanks Sine CourageousLife (talk) 23:24, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

The American civilizations are severely impacted in the algorithm due to the diseases, but their destruction is not guarenteed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:25, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Too bad we don't have any secret weapons up our sleeves. And it's not like there's a whole lot we can do about it. The Old World players must be salivating over America right about now. CourageousLife (talk) 23:28, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

more than anything in this map game lol Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:30, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Eh? CourageousLife (talk) 23:33, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion to American players would be to concentrate on expanding before the Europeans arrive, then buckle down and focus all resources on defense for the couple centuries. Remember, even if you are conquered, playing as a puppet state of a conquering power (let's say Portugal conquers the Mayans, but gives them semi-independence as long as they are loyal) is possible. If your nation is totally annexed, then you can choose a new one. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:34, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I actually sugested a plan of that sort to Kunarian, but he has yet to get back to me. How can I determine the amount of expansion that is plausible for my nation at this time? CourageousLife (talk) 23:38, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

"The Old World players must be salivating over America right about now." more than anything in this map game lol Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:30, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

and i think it depends on how big is your nation and how stable it is aswell how strong are the tribes nearby and the population inside your nation Sine dei gloriem (talk) 23:42, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Lol :D. I think my decision on wether or not to consolidate the Mayan culture before expansion will have a huge impact on my stability. Hey Lurk, if I was thinking of expansion, say, to the western portion of Cuba, could I plausibly do that this turn, or do I have to develop my navy first in order to be able to sail that far? CourageousLife (talk) 23:47, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

You should develop your navy first for maybe 3-4 years (to go further you would have to develop it longer). You should stabilize your nation first before expanding. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:05, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

I understand that this game will be taking a long time to develop, but is there a way that I (Brittainy) can be able to explore the Americas before next month? Twisty123456789 (talk) 09:01, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. No-one is reaching the Americas till the 1490s. Chances are it will be Portugal, Castille, Florence or Venice to reach the Caribbean first since they have large navies (America was named after Amerigo Vespucci, a Florentine) and Enlgand or Denmark for Newfoundland and the East Coast. Scandinator (talk) 10:38, September 6, 2012 (UTC).

There's really no way that would happen. No exceptions, even for the big players like Lurk or Crim. You're just gonna have to wait it out, like everyone else. CourageousLife (talk) 20:22, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Too bad Zheng He is dead by now or I'd totally pull this off. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 20:28, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Lol forget Columbus CourageousLife (talk) 20:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

End of Hundred Years War
I feel that making an algorithm for this war may be useless, as it has already raged for a hundred years. France's victory was pretty much set by this point, as the moderator event shows. If both players want to have an algorithm I suppose we can make one, but it may be better just for the war to end like it did in OTL (England loses Normandy) or for them to enter negotiations with the French (with the French having the upper hand) versus trying to make an algorithm for a war that has lasted for 114 years. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:02, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah our algorithm isn't particularly suited for wars lasting this long is it lol. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:10, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Technically it was a series of short wars between the two nations. 1337-1348, 1356-1360, 1369-1389, 1415-1453. The first three were stalemates and it was only the last one where England made huge gains and then lost them .-.

Anyways, Normandy will fall to France in PMII, the English are in no position to defend it (if they do then Ireland and Wales will rebel) Scandinator (talk) 12:46, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm currently getting into alliance with the HRE states, the Kalmar Union, Castille and Anjou-Auvergne-Brittany to have an oportunity against France. As soon as I recover the statu quo, I'll ask RWG for a peace treaty. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 16:41, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Most active page ever?
With 36 editors in the past three days, I have never seen a page higher on the active pages list. Does anyone know if it ever got higher on this wiki, or does PMII hold the record? LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:56, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Can't tell you exactly what it was, but I know I've seen ones in at least the upper 40s before. Lordganon (talk) 05:31, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I vaguely remember seeing that too lol- I think it was either a talk page or blog post. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 09:43, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I have a feeling map games are getting a) more organized b) fewer and fewer and c) more popular. Especially the last one. Back then, it was a lot if you had 12 editors on your game. Now PMII has 36 and AvA has 21. :D PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 09:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Heh, this page is now 39 and AvA is 23- Pita

If I'm not mistaken, there would be this firey thing above PMII on the Recent Wiki Activity page if we had beat the record. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 11:51, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Considering how long PM ran, and people looked at it interested, yet due to how far ahead it was decided not to join, decided to all join PM II due to how big it was before, you know, PM is sort-of uhh special I guess. Ianian58 (talk) 20:23, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Korea

 * Location: +3
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: China (L) +4
 * Military Buildup: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5 (Moral Friend?)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count=5,766
 * 9*5*4=180
 * 180/5,766= 0.09807261145
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +8?
 * 6 digits in population
 * Population is between xxx times larger than Taiwan
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total: 45

Taiwan

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Taiwan(L) +4
 * Military Buildup: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance: ?
 * Nation Age: ?
 * Population: 5?
 * 7 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars: +0
 * Total: 30

Result
Korean victory. Korea can annex _____ of Taiwanese territory, depending on how long the war lasts.

Discussion
Did I do this right?

Nope. Taiwan is not a nation. It is unexplored and tribal. Expand into it at will. No algorythm required. Scandinator (talk) 10:30, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, alas, it was good practice lol. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 18:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

DeanSims' Post
Im going to stop expanding into Europe after i take over the Byzantines so my empire can b stronger in the future and expand more into Africa and the middle east, is that ok? Proud Leader of the Althistory Revolution (User talk:DeanSims)

That is fine. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:58, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire

 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: Ottomans (L) +4
 * Military Buildup: 30
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3 (Annexing territory)
 * Chance: 7
 * Edit count=4,049
 * 9*5*4=315
 * 315/4,049= .0 7 7796986910348
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +28
 * +20 if the larger nation is more than ten times the size of the smaller
 * 8 digits in population
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total: 92

Byzantine Empire

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Byzantine Empire (L) +4
 * Military Buildup: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance: 8
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * 6 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars: +0
 * Total: 38

Result
Ottoman victory. Ottomans may take up to ((92/(92+39))*2)-1= 40.45% of Byzantine lands. Since the Byzantines have already lost so much territory to the Ottomans, as long as the war lasts one year they will fall

Discussion
The Ottomans' moderator event gave them an automatic +30 in military buildup. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:03, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Majapahit

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:3 (attacker's advantage+Higher ground)
 * Strength: Majapahit (L), Vjayanagara (M), Ashkiga Shogunate (S), Banajar (MV), Majapahit's 1000 Island Vassals (MV):13
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:-1
 * Motive: 3 (economic)
 * Chance:6
 * Edit count=393
 * 2*2*4=16
 * 393/16*pi=77.16
 * Nation Age:-5 (Ancient Nation)
 * Population:8
 * 6 digits in population
 * Greater Population=+2
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:42

Sunda

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Sunda (L):4
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance:4
 * Nation Age: -5 (Ancient Nation)
 * Population:5
 * 5 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:33

Result
Currently Majapahit victory. ((42/(42+33))*2)-1=.12, So Majapahit can take 12% of Sunda's territory. (12)*(1-1/(2*3))=10%.  You can take 10% of their territory

Discussion
Can someone help me with the second calculations, I'm not sure about them. (1-1=0, regardless of what you multiply or divide it by).Flagmania (talk) 20:48, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

You divide first, so it would be the equivilent of 1-(1/(2x)) I believe CourageousLife (talk) 22:50, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Vassals don't subtract from the strength, the amount of strength they give is just reduced. So for example, a normal nation would give +3 by sending military help, while a vassal gives +2 because of the -1. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:02, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Golden Horde

 * Location:4
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: Golden Horde (L), Nogai Horde (MV), Kazan Horde (MV):8
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:-0
 * Motive: 3 (economic, wants resources)
 * Chance:0 (random)
 * Nation Age:+0 (Average nation, their government collapsed in the last 100 years)
 * Population:17
 * 7 digits in population
 * Greater Population=+10
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:-5 (war with Novgorod)
 * Total:38

Moscow

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:0
 * Strength: Moscow(L)/Novgorod(M):7
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance:4
 * 2*1*2=4
 * Editcount=1853
 * 1853/4*pi=1455.34
 * Nation Age: Old Nation (+5)
 * Population:6
 * 6 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:47

Results
Muscovite Victory. Moscow can take ((44/(44+38))*2)-1=7.31*1.5=10.96% of the Golden Horde at max, depending on how long the war is.

Discussion
'''The Horde doesnt get the *1.5 because its invading, not being invaded. Its moscow and novgorod that get the *1.5 in winnings.-Lx (leave me a message) 00:04, September 7, 2012 (UTC)'''

I thought I had made some additional penalty for having multiple full-on wars at once, other than just the -3 for having a war in the past 15 years. I will assign it a -5 penalty for having 2 full-on wars at once (3 wars would be -10, etc.)LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:33, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Considering that after the mongol invasion the population of russian lands was 7 million(happedn at approx. 1250), I will estimate that the population of Russian lands combined is apporox. 5 million now(minus Ukraine and belarus). That means tver, Rostov,Novgorod, Ryazan, Pskov and Novgorod lands consist that much populace now(giving room for population growth). How to distribute that population, I dont know. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:19, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Novgorod and Moscow would both have at least couple million people if 5 million is the total russian population. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:34, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

There should be a horde bonus. They were the best when it came to military affairs until the end of the 15th century when artillery and light cavalry became commonplace. The Russians also fought mostly on foot compared to the light cavalry the Hordes had which literally rampaged across medieval battlefields. I'd say it would be a +10. Also Nogai would not help them, Kazan would only. Scandinator (talk) 02:59, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with scan. Saamwiil (talk) 03:08, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Golden Horde

 * Location:3
 * Tactical Advantage:1 (attacker's advantage)
 * Strength: Golden Horde (L), Nogai Horde (MV), Kazan Horde (MV):8
 * Military Buildup:0
 * Expansion:-0
 * Motive: 3 (economic, wants resources)
 * Chance:8 (random)
 * Nation Age:+0 (Average Nation)
 * Population:17
 * 7 digits in population
 * Greater Population=+10
 * Participation:+10
 * Recent Wars:-5 (war with Moscow)
 * Total:45

Novgorod

 * Location:5
 * Tactical Advantage:2 (high ground bonus given because to get to them, the Horde is going to have to go through low ground (swamps)
 * Strength: Novgorod(L)/Moscow(M): 7
 * Military Buildup:2
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive: 10 (life or death)
 * Chance:5
 * 2*3*7=42
 * Editcount=2822
 * 2822/42*pi=211.085
 * Nation Age: Ancient Nation (-5)
 * Population:6
 * 6 digits in population
 * Participation:10
 * Recent Wars:+0
 * Total:42

Result
Golden Horde Victory, unless Novgorod gets aid. However, since the Horde is in civil disarray, they can only take resources from Novgorod, no actual land.

Discussion
The horde isn't actually in civil disarray, its just collapsing. This is why the way the map works is confusing... I might propose changes. Also the horde can just rampage through Moscovy right? Scandinator (talk) 08:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sockpuppeting
As you guys may have guessed.... Twisty123456789, Aussie Dude 32, and Physco1234 are the same person, and have received long blocks for sockpuppeting. Figured I'd leave a note here. Lordganon (talk) 00:47, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Shame, the stuff they were posting was of okay quality & didn't do anything else wrong. Ah well, if this fellow comes back again at least now he knows he shouldn't be sockpuppeting. I wonder if he knew about the no-sockpuppet rule & just ignored it or if he was just ignorant to it? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:56, September 7, 2012 (UTC).

Lol, I didn't guess. Saamwiil (talk) 00:57, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter at all, Von. And the blocks were for a year, so.... Lordganon (talk) 01:07, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well if he comes back with a new account and just does what he was doing without all the sockpuppeting, he wouldn't arose any suspicion. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:15, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I have a hard time believing anyone could ever think that "pretending to be multiple people (badly) in order to defy the rules of a game" would be allowed. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse here. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:20, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I spent half an hour last night cleaning up the page... they spammed posts and managed to screw with the indenting... and then edited over me so the mistakes came back... Scandinator (talk) 02:50, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

He has returned as Twisty9876754321 which shows he isn't trying to hide. He has apologized on the page and is asking to continue playing as just Brittany. Should we let him? I'm fine with it. Scandinator (talk) 06:41, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

There is a twist. See what I did there :D. He claims they were editing on their school computers (three different ones). Their time zones agree with that story (they were editing during Australian school times). I think a reprimand for spamming the page is all we should give them. Scandinator

Let me put this bluntly: He is banned permanently from this wiki. He is cheating. No doubt, whatsoever. Lordganon (talk) 07:58, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

He apologized on the page and even started to create a nation page. I'm now not sure what he was or is trying to do. Scandinator (talk) 08:09, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

His "apology" means nothing. Not that one word of it was true. Lordganon (talk) 08:13, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

If you say it like that... ahh well.... I find I'm a little too trusting :S Scandinator (talk) 08:17, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Curious, how do you know Twisty is lying? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:58, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

There's really no way to tell if he is telling the truth or not. We can't tell who is sitting behind the computer(s). LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:47, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Until concrete proof ocurrs for either argument this situation is like the glass half full/half empty expression. It could be that either Scand is too trusting or LordGanon is too harsh. I personally don't care about the user in question, and I will stay indifferent unless the user does something like what Eldwolf did to the last game.

Yank 12:08, September 7, 2012 (UTC)