Talk:Saguenay War (1983: Doomsday)

Archive (Note: I think this is the first Doomsday article that needed an archive besides the portal page.)

Result of the War
Despite my Canadian birth and upbringing, I wish that the Sanguenayans (is that the term?) win. Why? Because I like a good underdog and because of my political views (NDP) and my dislike of pretty much anyone who has recently lead Canada. Besides I don't think it is fair that Sanguenay has in my opinion allready proen itself to be a proper nation, and so the Canadian gov't has to learn the lesson that Sanguenay is here to stay the hard way. Wow! The elusive triple ryhme! Gold medal for me! [Mimics Crowd Cheering] --Yankovic270 19:15, September 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, no offense, but what you want doesn't have as much bearing on this as who is more likely to win. Canada, with modern technology, a larger population, and much more international support? Or Saguenay, a mostly unrecognised state which is mostly cut off from international trade and a smaller population, their only advantage being that of surprise.


 * That aside, I think that the result of the war will not be a victory for either, but rather a draw when the Canadians retake Gaspesie around November, both populations tired of war and other nations pressuring both to keep the peace. Perhaps the LoN will decide to recognise Saguenay in exchange for a cessation of hostilities too. --DarthEinstein 19:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * If the Canada First party enacts conscription and ramps up military production, I don't see Saguenay having much of a chance. Sure, they would give Canada a pretty big bloody nose at first, but I think if they are going to have much of a chance, they need international support. Especially with Canada being a member of the Atlantic Defence Community. With an official declaration of war against Canada, the ADC would either have to renege on its responsibilities, or support Canada. The best outcome I can see in this situation is Saguenay becoming an autonomous region within Canada. Unless Superior fully mobilizes, and then we have a much longer war on our hands with a much more cloudy outcome.--Oerwinde 08:06, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly! So if in October the Canada First Party is voted into office, and they start their uber-militaristic plans, but Superior also mobilises, then a large bloody phase of the war begins. Eventually, Canada takes control of Gaspe and meets hostility internationally in going into Saguenay territory. Having retaken their territory and with international pressure, they work out a peace treaty, probably granting Saguenay LoN recognition if not Canadian recognition. --DarthEinstein 11:57, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * With Saguenay technically being the agressor, and unrecognized internationally, and with Canada having the official claim over the territory, I don't see there being much international pressure to lay off Saguenay. This would be deemed an internal affair. I also realized that as Saguenay is unrecognized, their declaration of war may not bring in the ADC. But if Superior is going to go in, they would need a declaration of war against Canada, which would bring in the ADC. --Oerwinde 18:31, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Superior involvement

 * I have decided that the Republic of Superior is going to war with Canada. Troop commitment, due to its relatively isolated position, is likely going to be from 160,000-240,000. Lahbas 21:50, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * That is an AWFUL lot of troops, to mobilize, to support, or otherwise. For that matter, how is Superior funding all these "peacekeeping" wars they're involved in? They're doing so much nation building that I wonder how their own citizens are faring. Louisiannan 22:44, September 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The RSA (Republic of Superior Army) both has a massive reserve (About 400,000 men and women are able to be called to active duty through a confusing draft; they keep weapons and armor just in this case, after having previously served in the military, and remain on call until they are 35.) Currently, there are probably 140,000-200,000 active soldiers in all branches. In regards to peacekeeping, it is largely within its own soil, the only active one outside of its territory being the establishment of the Republic of Wisconsin. Since that experience, it has not actively pursued nation-building. In the case of war, however, the live hood of citizens goes down, similar to a change in lifestyle from something akin to the Roaring 20’s, to a WWII setting. Rations become a part of daily life in times of actual conflict, as the soldiers get the best of the materials. Also, in regards to equipment, the RSA is as modern as one can get in this day in age. It is not because they receive it by outside means, by the government had procured the manufacturing abilities through Aroostook by way of the League. Government companies such as Periapt (Vehicles), Riaston (Helicopters and Aircraft), and Levlon (Guns and Artillery) have designed and have been in the process of replacing the RSA’s older weaponry. By now, they are about 3/4ths of the way through. In regards to amount, I am leaning toward the former, with more probably being deployed if the ADC intervenes. Lahbas 23:28, September 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are my concerns, Lahbas -- 1) The land that's marked as being the territory of Superior is land that is fairly sparsely populated *here*, which makes me wonder if that land could even support 400,000 people, let alone a standing army of that size AND the wives, children and others who stay at home while this army's away. 2) I find 3.5 million people to be a huge nation -- how is Superior feeding its people? Where did all these people come from?   It's all too optimistic for this TL, in my opinion.  Louisiannan 13:56, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Louis and I have stated my own reasons for why I think Superior's population is too large. Furthermore a 160k-240k sized force that will need to be transported and supplied over a chaotic and damaged area at best.  Also why is Superior willing to commmit such a large force anyway?  As far as I can tell there relations with Canada and Saugenay have been nominal.  Also the vote to go to war wasn't exactly a shut out for the war hawks, there is a significant part of the population of Superior that does not want to go to war and yet the country is sending close to half their army to fight in a war for people they only have minimal contact with.  Mitro 14:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Michigan seems to have a pretty good agriculture, according to Wikipedia, so that would account for some of the population. But even though this region wasn't directly targeted, their agriculture would definitely take a blow from fallout. Numurous coastal cities on the Great Lakes were hit, so fishing would also suffur. --DarthEinstein 16:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

There also MIGHT be a trickling of Virginian volunteers going to fight for Sanguenay via Superior. But the official stance of Virginia is neutrality. Like the colonies that make up Canada in the US Civil War. They were neutral, but that doesn't mean that Canadians didn't fight for either side.--Yankovic270 00:17, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a little concerned about the number of people who are trying to get their creations to join the war in Canada. While some have valid claims to be involved (Superior, Aroostook, the ADC), others don't (Virginia, New Britain).  Considering the number of people wanting to contribute to TL-wide event, I think for the sake of plausibility that we apoint someone to be the final arbitrator on the war.  Since this was originally Darth's idea, I think its only fair that he has the final say on what happens in the war.  Mitro 14:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as ther Virginian government doesn't enter, I could be fine with small - very small - amounts of Virginian volunteers. The situation has a vague similarity to the civil war, but only very vague. --DarthEinstein 16:19, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly what Darth Einstein said. While the land is quite arable, and the fallout has begun to leave the area by around 1995 or so, though it never affected the established farms up in the Canadian territories. These colonies all around the Great Lakes region from the breadbasket of Superior. The fishing industry itself actually is quite prosperous. Though areas like Detroit and Chicago were hit, which woul result in radioactive material leaking into the Great Lakes, it is largely confined to within the coastel area, and maybe 10-20 miles north. Though this would have a deteremental effect on the fishing population, it is far out-paced by the lack of American consumers, and the presence of the Michigan fishing fleet, which would result in an explosion in animal populations within the lake. Kind of like what would happen to the Lobster and Cod populations off New England. As a result, the main source of food is within the Great Lakes themselves. You wonder why the area is so sparsely populated? It just is. There is no reason for it, other than people do not want to move there in our world. It is nice to be for a vacation, but it is not as easy as living in the suburbs or cities. As for the transportation of supplies and men to the conflict, what do you think they did in Burma during World War II? Or Papua New Guinea? It is difficult, but it is possible. In regards to the political and public perception of the war in Superior, a large portion of the population supports it, largely due to the bias of the National Broadcasting Service, which I have forgot to put into the main article. What they are divided on is whether the war is worth risking the international standing of the nation? In other words, will the war lead to their banishment on the international stage? Many hawks say that I will open new avenues of diplomacy for the nation, while doves believe that the war is a flaw in the Republic's foreign policy. Lahbas 00:40, September 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Darth also said "their agriculture would definitely take a blow from fallout" and I have to agree with him. Also while Michigan might have a good farmland as a whole, the Upper Peninsula is actually very difficult to farm at the best of times, and I have heard that first hand from an area farmer (though maybe he was just bitching about his own land).  Also you are leaving out the massive fallout that is effecting the entire northern hemisphere.  The fallout travelling with the weather will effect the Great Lakes and the UP as well.
 * Also to say that more people don't live in the UP just because its not as easy is a gross understatement. The farther north you go in the interior US the smaller the population density becomes.  It takes a high tech level and a strong national infrastructure to sustain a large population in some of these northern latitudes, and Superior is going to lack both of these come doomsday.
 * The analogy of WWII also does not apply here. The ations pushing troops across Burma and New Guenea were large world class empires that could draw upon a huge reserve of manpower and industry.  Superior is a small post-apoc state in the devestated North America.  It is not the British Empire or the United States or the Empire of Japan.
 * Also I wouldn't put that much faith in the NBS. Even Fox News couldn't get a super-majority of America behind the Iraq War, and I bet Superior will have their CNN or MSNBC as well.  Also the large number of nay votes you wrote on the news page is too large to be simply a "we worry about how the world will see us." Superior will have to deal with significant doemestic issues if it tries to put as many soldiers in the field as you suggest.  The 5000 RG force you originally added was more plausible then half the Superior army.
 * Back to the population issue, I'm sorry Lahbas but it just seems too optimistic for the UP and a few surounding counties to have such a population explosion after a nuclear war while every other nation on the continent suffers a drop. 7 million is to high, as is 3 million...but 1 million or 1.5, that I could live with even if I still think its a litle too high.  This TL is a dystopia, even if the world population might be up for discussion, we are still looking at a massive loss of life.  Don't get me wrong, Superior is an excellent article, but its actions in this war are too optimistic to be plauisble.  Mitro 02:59, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Darth! By the way, does anyone know what is the probable result of this war? Recognition or occupation of Sanguenay? Sanguenay annexing Gaspe? --Yankovic270 16:28, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Name

 * Do we have an official name for the war? I want to create a main article for the war so we can have a central location for the info instead of having to search through several articles.  Mitro 17:09, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Sure we do! The Gaspe War. Its on the infobox. It describes the war well.--Yankovic270 23:39, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I wrote the infobox and added that name, but I did that for lack of a better name. Mitro 02:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, whoever made the infobox made up the name. The thing is, wars are usually named in hindsight, not while they're happening. Say we call it the Gaspe war now, but later it ends with Canada annexing Saguenay? Also, though the main action of the war is in Gaspe, there is definitely some fighting going on in the north too. Perhaps the "Canadian Civil War", as most of the world regards Saguenay as a rebellious part of Canada, as do the Canadians themselves. Of course the Saguenayans and Superiorians wouldn't like the name, they would most likely call it something like the "Anti-Canadian War", or somesuch. --DarthEinstein 23:48, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * History is written by the victors. I say for now, with Saguenay's status as part of Canada, and Superior coming on board, call it the Superior-Canadian War, and afterwards depending on the outcome it could be the Canadian Civil War, or the War of Saguenayan Independance.--Oerwinde 07:19, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Canada First party leader
On a different note, I've been trying to find someone to be the new Canada First Party Prime Minister after the election. I decided to look amoung Canadian military officers since they seem like a militaristic sort of party. The best guy I got was Rick Hillier, but I can't figure out where he was on Doomsday. Hopefully Newfoundland, since that was his home, but he could also have been in Ontario or Germany (he was serving with Canadians in Germany). Even if he's in Ontario, I think he could get back to civilisation (ie Canada) as long as he's not in the middle of one of the nuked cities. --DarthEinstein 13:17, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

New Article
Due to the size of the discussion I move it to its own article. I hope this article can act as a central location for all the facts of the war instead of having to read several different articles. Mitro 18:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Military
Lets be realistic. after doomsday, the Candaian military would be more concerned with protecting the country against bandits and providing SAR, transport, etc, not fighting a major war. light infantry transported by helicopters and with CF-5 freedom fighters providing support would take the place of tanks and mass battles, providing a military similar to OTL mexico.--HAD 10:00, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

and what kind of air defence assets does sanguney have? i suppose they would not have jet fighters, would they?--HAD 10:00, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

It seems very likely that Sanguenay could leave the War gaining Gaspe and maybe some international recognition. To be blunt, they seem to be wiping the floor with the Canadians. And I think the Celtic Alliance should keep its nose out of North American affairs. I get seriously steamed every time I read the blatently imperialist statements of the Celts. It doesn't matter that both the Celts and the Canadians are members of the former British Commonwealth, because as far as I can tell they have had as much rason to eenter the war as New Britain: None whatsoever. There was no Maine-style scandal to get them riled up. It is just them putting their collective noses where they don't belong. And the Maine-style refers to the Maine the American vessel whose mysterious sinking in Havana harbor sparked the Spanish-American war. --Yankovic270 13:11, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the Celts are a member of the ADC. They are just honouring there treaty obligations. anyway, how are Sanguenay advancing so fast? surely they would be under air attack every step of the way, as well as attacks by the canadian ground forces?--HAD 13:15, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Canadians weren't expecting an attack on the Gaspe peninsula, some of their army had already moved to North Quebec when the attack began. They had plans for this in the works for a while. --DarthEinstein 13:37, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

True, but like i said, surely the candaian air command would be on the attack? --HAD 13:42, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Apparently not, as it let the Sanguenayans kick Canadian butt over and over and over again. I don't think there has been a battle where airpower is an actual factor. Combat has, in my opinion, reverted to pre-1914 standards for at least the absolte lack of air support. --Yankovic270 16:24, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Canadians have limited air support, but (evidently) not enough to hold back Saguenay at this point. But Canadian forces, in the air, on land, and at sea, are reorganising and preparing to take back the peninsula. And once the Canada First Party wins the next election, pretty much all of the Canadian budget will go into the war and mass conscription will increase. With help from their ADC allies, I think it is possible for Canada to retake the peninsula.


 * Saguenay's victories are due to the element of surprise, as Canada has not fought a full scale war of this time since the Korean War, and that wasn't even in Canada.--DarthEinstein 16:30, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Even a nuclear war wouldn't wipe out 70 years of technological advancement. Canada would still have access to 80s weapons in the Atlatic provinces and could purchase more modern weapons from ANZC and SAC.  Even if you don't think an air force will change anything (which I seriously doubt) Canadian tanks would make trench warfare unlikely.  Mitro 16:40, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Mitro. The Canadians would have armoured superioty (Leopard 1), giving them an advantage.--HAD 15:30, September 24, 2009 (UTC) them

Very well. I still cannot belive that there was a time when our weapons weren't obsolete peices of crap. Anyway, I still believe the Sanguenayans could at least fight the Canadians to a bloody, blody stalemate. I just believe that there is no point to creating an article on a country only to destroy it. --Yankovic270 00:36, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Result of War again

 * The fate of the war, and of Saguenay, has not completely been decided yet. My current thoughts are that Canada will retake Gaspesie sometime in late October/early November, and beyond that I haven't decided. --DarthEinstein 00:46, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * My opinion is that there will at least be 80,000 soldiers from the Republic of Superior deployed in the general area, with about 60,000 of those positioned upon the Gaspe Peninsula, come October 10th. The most to be deployed will be 100,000 until Canada actually starts hitting back. The reason for this is that, though Superior now feels that Canada is rather weak (having been crushed by Saguenay just a couple of weaks ago) they want to be prepared for possible participation by the Celtic Alliance. When the Gaspe peninsula heat up again, they may increase that number. Lahbas 01:11, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Gaspe will be retaken about as quickly as it was lost, maybe a bit longer because Saguenay would obviously be prepared. But due to its suddeness, Superior might not get their reinforcements there in time to help. I do think, however, that Superior reinforcements would be able to defend Saguenay proper, and preserve Saguenay's independance. --DarthEinstein 01:56, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * For one, you are pitting an army of conscripts against a professional army. Conscripts NEVER do well in combat, unless they are vigorously trained. Second, you have to understand that the bill has to be passed first, and it really depends on how many Canada First delegates are in the Parliament as to the speed this would be achieved.

I personally looked up basic training for Canada, which is suprisingly low, but still high. 20 days. That is for a reserve member of the Land Forces, and I do not expect it to go any lower than that. The reason for this is that for one, Canada has to expect a heavily entrenched enemy to be in the Gaspe Peninsula by now. Two, sending men with little to no training into a firefight is suicide. I admit that many will likely know how to handle basic weapons at this stage, BASIC, like hunting rifles. What really needs to be done is phycological training, so that they do not cut and run when they begin to see the bodies drop. Third, the Canada First Party just came from the fringe to the forefront of the Canadian political field. They will NOT want to become part of the fringe again. As a result, they would not launch a rapid invasion of the Gaspe Peninsula, but at the same time would reject any diplomatic approach, so as not to appear weak.

As a result, the Republic of Superior WILL be stationed in Gaspe, when the counter-attack does finally occur. However, will it be a rapid re-conquest? No. If anything, Canada will likely either get another bloody nose, or there will be a stalemate, where Canada is able to hold a beach-head on the Peninsula, but is not able to push inland. Lahbas 03:30, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think that canada will be able to retake the peninsular. they have the advantages of a larger industrial base, a better equiped military and allies on the international scene.--HAD 08:05, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you've read the Canada page, you'll see that the Canada First party is not coming off the sidelines - true, they have never formed the government, but they are the second most powerful party. They're basing their political campaign on decisive action, so they would want to retake the Gaspe peninsula. And what I meant by Superior not having reinforcements there, I meant more reinforcements, as they obviously would have some troops there. Also, sometime the Canadians will find the Saguenay naval base and likely destroy it, cutting Gaspe off from supplies from the mainland.


 * However, I do see what you mean by sending untrained conscipts in. How about we push the retaking of the peninsula to the winter or spring. By that time, their army, even the conscripts, should be trained well enough. --DarthEinstein 12:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Offensives in the Winter never work, unles you have overpowering force, and many wars have actually tried to avoid such offensives. (The Soviet Union is the only time that this would really be the case, but they were taking MILLIONS of extra casualties as a result). This would have to push such an offensive back until the spring. Even then that means that there will likely be more troops stationed on the Peninsula from the Republic of Superior, fortified, dug-in, etc. The Sagueyan Army would be equiped with Superian weapons as well. In my opinion, Saguenay has won the war at this point, just because time in not in Canada's favor.

What could turn it around is if the Celtic Alliance or other Atlantic Treaty nations jump in to support Canada, though I think only the Celtic Alliance at this point will jump in, largely because of the rhetoric coming from it. The reasoning for this is comparable to the War in Afghanistan right now. Though NATO is commited to the conflict, many nations do not want to be involved any longer. This feeling is heightened in the Doomsday world, since some nations still face fierce domestic problems. The Nordic Union military is largely for self-defence just in size, the Confederation of Greece needs to remain in the Meditterranean to protect itself from Sicily, while Portugal and Pais de Oro are only remnents, and are concentrating on reclaiming the Iberian Peninsula.

What probably will happen is that the war expands out of the Gaspe Peninsula into New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, following a refusal of the Canadian Government to acquiese to a peace treaty. These are the main points that I believe that such a treaty would entail:

Saguenay


 * Recognition of its independence from the Canadian Remainder Provinces


 * Transfer of the Gaspe Peninsula to Saguenay


 * The Gulf of St. Lawrenece and the area of former New Brunswick become demilitarized zones

Republic of Superior


 * Canada will drop its claims to the Great Lakes region


 * Canada will allow the Republic of Superior entrance to the League of Nations

Canada


 * Canadian military will at no time consist of more then 10,000 men


 * Most of the Canadian Fleet will be transfered to Saguenay to form its own naval force

Extreme, but I would think this is what they are aiming for. On another note, the road that was proposed to be built to ensure trade to the East for the Republic of Superior will have become a priority, and therefore be completed by the Spring, allowing for the easy movement of troops and supplies to the war front. I write to much :) Lahbas 15:50, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I like this treaty a lot. But I think the Sanguenayans would push for one more condition for Canada: The destruction of the Canada First Party as a legal political party. I think that they blame them for killing their leader and sparking of the whole war. --Yankovic270 16:08, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don’t like the treaty. Things seem to be way to easy for Superior and Saugenay while Canada, one of the world powers of this TL, seems to be falling apart at the seams.  Superior is acting like an aggressive rogue state attempting to deny Canada's claims to territories in the Great Lake region that they have a lawful claim to.  No way will the LoN welcome Superior in after this.  Meanwhile the ADC is apparently going to be useless because of a domestic tension, while Superior who from their legislatures vote only has a slight majority in favor of the war apparently suffers no negative effects on the homefront.  The current suggestions are just implausible.  The original idea to have an LoN negotiated white peace is still the most plausible.  Before and after the creation of the LoN, the nations of the world have worked to maintain the current borders (look at the Sicily crisis).  I can’t see them simply sitting back and allowing Canada to lose its sovereign territory.  I truly think it’s likely that if Saugenay/Superior refuses to leave Gaspe the LoN will get involved.  Mitro 16:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also some of the provisions in this proposed treaty read like the Treaty of Versailles. No way is it plausible for Canada to limit its armies or surrender most of its navy.  Meanwhile Superior is still putting way too many forces to the front.  They have to travel across raider territory without access to good roads or railways.  I’m not even sure how much oil reserves Superior has (oil isn’t that abundant in the Great Lakes) so I doubt that many trucks are being used.  Mitro 16:40, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the treaty on one part: Canada will refuse it. Thats the kind of peace deal that would be signed if Saguenay and Superior advanced and occupied the Canadian capitol, wiped out most of Canada's military, and were at peace with all of Canada's allies. And its a spiteful peace deal, the kind given to agressors in war like Japan and Germany at the end of WW2. Lets not forget that while a member of the CFP gave casus belli, this is a war of Saguenayan agression. With Saguenay being the agressor, and unrecognized internationally, this will be very bad diplomatically for Superior as they are in essence interfering in a civil war, and are fighting against the recognized democratically elected government.--Oerwinde 16:50, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Since I don’t want to be accused of complaining without offering any alternatives, here is my proposed treaty: Mitro 16:54, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Saguenay and Superior forces will evacuate the Gaspe peninsula. LoN peacekeepers will patrol the border.
 * Saguenay is recognized diplomatically, while Saguenay and Superior are given membership in the LoN.
 * Canada drops claims to the former Province of Ontario. LoN will hold referendums in Superior territories in the former province of Ontario to confirm whether they want to continue to remain associated with Superior.
 * A LoN sponsored commission will decide the fate of ownership over the St. Lawrence River area.
 * Can we break this talk page up into something OTHER than a HUGE divisionless monster?
 * I've voiced my repeated opinion on the military capacity of Superior, and their participation in this war. I agree 100% with Mitro that the volume of troops and the distances that they're travelling are, frankly, RIDICULOUS for this timeline.
 * Mitro's suggestions of the alternate treaty are much more reasonable and realistic for the timeline and the zeitgeist of the timeline, something that I fear is not very present in all members of this war.
 * Regardless of my frequently stated misgivings of Superior's military capacity, I still don't see how they're going to support their troops without getting thrown out of Sanguenay, because, frankly, with winter coming, do you REALLY think you're going to continue to get large amounts of supply through hostile and impassable territory? Louisiannan 17:48, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think if the Canadians want to really screw with the Saguenay/Superior alliance, they need to avoid a massive campaign to retake Gaspe. They need to move on Saguenay proper. In order to take Gaspe so quickly, they would have had to commit a lot of forces, and with the discussion showing the RoS forces reinforcing Gaspe, the strategic thing to do would be to take southern Saguenay and blockade the St Lawrence, cutting off supplies and reinforcements to the troops in Gaspe. This would force the troops in Gaspe to either pull out to defend Saguenay, or stay with no supply lines or reinforcements while Canada digs in in Saguenay resupplying and gathering allies to retake Gaspe.--Oerwinde 18:00, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * About Mitro's treaty: I think that would work, however I think instead of Canada retracting claims to all of Ontario, I think it should only be Lake Superior and Lake Huron coastal regions, maybe the other Great Lakes.
 * About breaking the talk page up: Done.
 * About the general shape of the war: Perhaps a reconquista of Gaspe won't happen, and Canada will attack Saguenay proper instead. However, Saguenay will of course also know that this could happen, so troops will not all be concentrated in Gaspesie. It will need more thought.
 * About the upcoming election: If you look up what I said quite a while ago, you'll see that I mentioned a possible candidate for Canada First Party leadership (under its own subdivision on the page). I would still like your opinions about whether he could have survived Doomsday and would be in Canada. If not, then I'll have to get someone else to become the new Prime Minister. --DarthEinstein 19:55, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think, that if the war continues in Sanguenay/Superior's favor the treaty would have one extra condition. The absolute and total banning of the Canada First Party, as the Sangueyans would blame them for the war. --Yankovic270 20:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * The CFP would be the majority party at the time peace would be made, they wouldn’t just give up their power and fade quietly in the night. Also its really hard for a free, democratic nation to just up and ban a political party that from their POV was blameless (there is no evidence that they ordered the assassination, sometimes a lone nut is just a lone nut).  Saguenay can ask for whatever they want when they walk up to the negotiation table, but that is going to be the first thing they will drop.  The best they can get is that anyone who might have been involved is arrested and tried, but that is it.  Mitro 20:37, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Hillier as far as I can see was in Southern Germany in 1983, not too fer from the Swiss Border, so I think its likely he survived, but the question is whether or not he returned, or helped out in southern Germany. I guess that would be up to you.--Oerwinde 22:10, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * So it seems he would be picked up by the Alpine Confed. But the question is would he try to cross the Atlantic and return to his home? I don't think so. If anyone thinks of anyone else I can use, please tell me. --DarthEinstein 22:28, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Will I never make my point clear enough? Huuuuuhhhhh.........Yes, there is going to be domestic tension in the Republic of Superior, I just have not added it yet, something along the lined of the early Vietnam years, before it got really crazy. Again, a large part of this discontent was over the idea that if they intervened, they might lose the chance to get recognized on the international scene as a legitimate player. That, and the many former Canadians that live within the country at this time.

As to points of supply, troop sizes, etc, I only have to say this. I specifically remember at one point there were discussions that Saguenay was possibly allied with the gangs in the St. Lawrenece region, through arms trading in such, sort of like the US and Afghanistan in the 80's. Saguenay could of threatened to end shipments, or increase them with the support of Superior, in return for safe passage of RSA soldiers. This could bite them in the back later, depending on the final treaty, but we'll see. I know that the population of the region in with the Republic of Superior is in has become a hot-issue, which also directly impacts its troop numbers. I still do not agree with the number set by Mitro, having done personnal research myself. A region of around 50 million people would not default to 1 million, even after a nuclear war. That number I believe would be around 2 - 2.5 million. Compared to my original estimation of 7 - 8 million..............enough said. Troop sizes would remain the size that I said of them the second time.

Energy is another issue that I really forgot, and should update into the article. The Great Lakes regions does produce some oil........but not anywhere near enough. As a result, the Republic was through government intervention forced to go green, relying on combinations of Bio-Diesal, Solar Power, Hydro-Power, Wind, and possibly Geothermal. They likely also have made advances, it having been a major government issue, allowing for a push into possibly the nineties, though I have my doubts. Personally, those trucks are run on largely run on Bio-Diesal fuel, with Gasoline vehicles having been phased out over time.

After looking into the issue more, the supply route would not be completed, or at least the land-based one. The St. Lawrence River could easily make up for the lack of a road, at least until the winter kicks in. Use of the Saint Lawrence Seaway could alos be made, where the road should reach by this point. The only major problem would be the amount of time possibly required to repair the locks after years of disuse. In that case, effort might be made, but in the end result in failure just because of enviromental destruction of vital elements. If Saguenay were to convince the gangs to allow the RSA's passage, then this would make for relatively easy movement at leas until the Canadian Winter sets in. At that point, they could possibly use flamethrowers to burn paths through the ice or improvise, but I think they would just try to move as much as possible during the first few months.

And yes, I realized that the treaty was harsh, and it was meant to be so. I hoped to strike up a conversation on the issue. :)

Sorry if I write long, but I want to make sure that all the bases are covered. Lahbas 22:24, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Using the St Lawrence would have to take a little research too. With cities along the St Lawrence being hit, you have to take into account collapsed bridges and their effect on the river. Its possible the river was deep enough that it doesn't make a difference, but it might. I needed to check this when doing Victoria, because the Fraser river is quite shallow, so collapsed bridges made river travel nigh impossible until it was cleared. Also cities along the lakes and river being hit would vaporize some of the water, and depending on the climate change and such, might have lowered the water level.--Oerwinde 23:57, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I just realized that we might have a problem in regard to Canada and its allies. The current status of the policy of the Canada First Party is isolationism in international affairs, and self-sufficeincy. Might this mean a withdrawal from the ADC and the LON? I am not sure, but I thought it could be a valid issue to bring up. Will Canada under the Canada Firsters accept international aid, or prefer to go it alon to keep with their platform? Lahbas 03:45, September 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think they would accept international aid, if grudgingly. After the war, they might try to withdraw from the LoN and the ADC. --DarthEinstein 12:05, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think their withdrawl from the international scene would be dependant on the results of the war. If they win due to international aid and Saguenay becomes part of Canada, then they would look stupid withdrawing and would likely not win the next election. If the ADC is useless and the LoN recognizes Saguenay, that would be cause for withdrawl.--Oerwinde 18:41, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

How about we leave at Sangueny being recognized by the international community? --HAD 12:44, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

this is getting out of hand. how about we leave it at sangueny being recognized, but the Gaspe penisular returning to canada. the Celtic Alliance are starting to deploy. if i were Sangueny, i would do what Japan did in the 1905 war with russia.: seek mediation by the international community. --HAD 15:19, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would agree -- having the international community come in and broker peace would be a good idea. Louisiannan 17:04, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

A protracted war would end in disaster for Sangueny and superiort alike. Blitzgried tatics work if you destroy a cou ntries military or the country itself. Sangueny has only occupied Gaspe and even if superior deploys, they will be outclassed and out numbered by ADC Forces. Is Saab still in buisness? THE EUROPEAN WOULD HAVE TOP quality kit if they are. gentlemen, let us end this with a fair ands just peace. --HAD 10:09, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance
Wow, this one is really kicking off. There are just a couple of things I'd like to add at this stage from the Alliance perspective. Though fully backing its obligations under membership of ADC the is still aware that North America is 5000 miles away; both the tactical and practical issues  of supporting a military campaign will be lengthy and costly given the reduced capcity of the Alliance.


 * Imperialism: Given the history of the former Irish Republic and its opposition to colonial power, war of independence from the British and its neutrality during DD I am some what taken a back that it would be construied as an imperialist act to assit Canada. The majority of the peoples of the Alliance have direct connection to Canada through economic and social movement and therefore family ties with North Americans on all sides. We must also be mindful that the Scots (those who are left) represent a people who were forceably removed from their own country from 1650's - 1900's and sent to Canada as cheap labour by the British State (called the Clearences) and an act of aggression against their allies/family ties would certainly irk the troblesome Scots. Politically, the Alliance government would be under a lot of internal pressure.


 * If the Alliance must act: It would I consider be a slow progress and false war (1939-1941 WWII) to start. Direct military involvment would not happen over night and would be strategically targeted to ensure a early end to the conflict.


 * Outcome: From the Alliance perspective it would be better if all sides agreed terms of ceasefire that would allow the League of Nations to act as arbiter in the demarcation of new boundaries. Otherwise I would agree that a stalemate would exist and that the Alliance say in 2010 -2011 would fully engage on the eastern flank of the Maritimes pushing in from Nova Scotia..? Mjdoch 10:37 September 30 2009 (GMT)

Hopefully this conclusion will be acceptable for everyone
Okay, there are lots of opinions and lots of possibilities. I though, as progenitor of this idea, that I should try to resolve them into one master plan that will (hopefully) be acceptable for everyone.
 * Point 1: After the initial Republican Guard forces that came to aid Saguenay, more Superior armies start arriving about early October, mainly by the St. Lawrence.
 * Point 2: Saguenay's forces are not concentrated in Gaspe; some are in Saguenay proper. Canada also stages raids against Saguenay proper territory. Some are successful, others less so, but the result is that more troops from Gaspe are brought back to Saguenay, and when the Canadians destroy Saguenay's secret naval base, getting troops to Gaspe suddenly becomes a lot harder.
 * Point 3: Saguenay forces also attack north Quebecl; though this is largely just pillaging, and not actually conquering.
 * Point 4: After the election on the 6th, the Canada First Party wins. They introduce military reforms such as mass conscription and convert many factories to military ends.
 * Point 5: Aroostook (which many seem to have forgot about) decides to eventually enter the war on the Canadian side. Their forces aren't that large, but Canada decides to take all the help she can get.
 * Point 6: For their major offensive, the Canadian army decides to wait for Spring. The reason? Their conscripts will be more trained, and ADC reinforcements will probably have arrived by then.
 * The Showdown: Canada begins its invasion in the spring. All winter, Superior reinforcements haven't been able to use the St. Lawrence, so supplies and whatnot are not in abundance. However they are still a match for Canada. When Canada begins its invasion, they are ready. Canada pushes forward to the city of Gaspe, the major city of the region. When they finally get there, they face a battle like Stalingrad; they fight for every building, every street, etc etc. They finally get the enemy forces out of Gaspe (the city), but there are still lots of forces on the peninsula.

However, an armistice is called by the Saguenay. They meet with the Canadians and ask the international community for mediation. ADC nations, obviously not wanting to send more troops, urge Canada to accept mediation. The major parties of the war (Saguenay, Superior, Canada, some ADC nations) meet with LoN representatives. They sign the treaty of Bermuda (they don't have to meet in Bermuda, I just picked somewhere not involved and close by).

This treaty states that Saguenay is recognised by the LoN and may apply for membership, same with Superior. Gaspe is returned to Canada, and Canada must allow LoN agents to investigate the Canada First Party to find out whether they are responsible for the assassination. A group of LoN peacekeepers will be stationed at the border, as well as in Gaspe. Saguenay is granted a corridor of territory in order to have official sea access (sort of like Poland after WWI). Canada drops claims on the coastal regions of Lakes Huron and Superior. Canada is allowed to expand along the St. Lawrence, and Saguenay must stop supplying the Lawrence Raiders. Thus, an uneasy peace comes over the North American region. --DarthEinstein 13:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm supportive of most of the ideas. Mitro 13:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

And I support ALL of them. --Yankovic270 13:57, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I still feel like your optimism for Superior's forces is too high, and your cynicism of Canadian forces too low. But like Mitro, I'm supportive of MOST of the ideas. Louisiannan 14:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Supportive of the principle but worried that we are over optimistic not only about Superior's forces but everyones, including the Celtic Alliance. Given the need for full engagement in food production across the northern hemisphere are we ahead of ourselves in relation to military affairs? Though military conscription is compulsory in the Alliance much of the work undertaken relates to food production, social care, and medicine.Mjdoch 15:49 September 30, 2009 (GMT)


 * I am fine with every part except where Canada gets to expand into the St. Lawrence region, and Aroostook joining the war on the side of Canada. Saguenay would not accept the idea of being surrounded on three-sides by what has become its arch-enemy, and woul argue that its ethnic ties to the region make it rightfully theirs. Aroostook............they just don't seem to really have a real reason to go to war. Unless there was a direct attack against them, or something similar to the reason the United States entered the war in WWI, they probably would prefer to be neutral, and send aid to Canada, or like previously suggested, allow volunteers to fight on both sides similar to the Spanish Civil War.


 * On another note, the minute Superior hears that the ADC is going to deploy, they are going to get as many men (and supplies) up to Gaspe and Saguenay as possible. I forget the numbers that I had listed previously, but at most they would double, possibly an increase in 50%. Supplies can also still reach the troops, it is just not in bulk, or efficent. The methods are similar to how the Germans managed to send supplies during the Winters in Russia throughout WWII. Though it is archaic, it will make sure that there is no extreme shortage, but rather a level that would request moderation. Lahbas 14:59, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Lahbas that Aroostook would not join the war, though they would be more supportive of Canada in the long run and any volunteers Saguenay and Superior get would be a few diehard French-Canadians. I agree that Saguenay would hate to have the St. Lawrence under Canadian control but it seems to be one of those situations they can do little about.  Canada outnumbers them in population by at least 4 to 1, plus Superior could only keep it forces there for a limited time and I doubt the Superior people would support keeping a significant amount of their military there just so another nation can get the land.  Furthermore the LoN is going to be a lot more sympathetic to a nation that existed pre-Doomsday and a nation that is on their high council.  A compromise might be having the area come under LoN jurisdiction with the former combatants working together to clear out the Lawrence Raiders and then putting a LoN sponsored state in the region (similar to the MSP or RZA).
 * I, however, still disagree with you about the size of Superior's population and the forces they can commit to the region. Superior is starting to look similar to some of the early versions of New Britain (no offense Bob), but in this case I'm going to defer to Darth's judgment at least on the case of Superior troop levels.  As I have said before there is just way too many people involved in this idea and since this was originally Darth's idea I think we should all let him have the final word on what goes into the war, unless someone can prove by using a reliable external source that he is wrong.  Mitro 15:30, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, so my conclusion seems to generally accepted, save on the Aroostook issue and the part about Canada expanding into the St. Lawrence. About Aroostook, I was basing its involvment off a recent WCRB news headline (see the main page, saying that Aroostook was angry at Saguenay for their support of the Lawrence Raiders. I don't mind so much about the issue, though, so if others think it should stay neutral I'm fine.


 * About the St. Lawrence, Saguenay and Superior really have no basis to expand there. The successor of the Quebec government is the Gaspe government, which is part of Canada, and Canada was the main player in opposing the Lawrence Raiders (Aroostook helped too).


 * And since no one objected about this point, I take it that the negotiations happening in Bermuda is fine with everyone? And one final thing: We need a Canada First Party leader. I was going to use Rick Hillier, but apparently he's in south Germany at Doomsday so someone else is needed. If we can't find anyone else, then I suppose we can say he returned to Canada (he would have had some incentive, as he is a native Newfoundlander), but someone actually in eastern Canada at Doomsday would be preferable. --DarthEinstein 17:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * But Again, Canada would then surround Saguenay on three sides, which for them I would think would be unexceptable. Possibly make it a demilitarized zone? That or an independent state in its own right, under the administration of the LON, similar to Kosovo before 2007. I don't really to be honest known who that issue would be resolved. Any possible solution seems to me like the Daytona Accords in regards to the Balkans. Lahbas 17:16, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Where is Marcpasquin for all this? Isn't he from OTL Saguenay? I would like to get his perspective on all this. Mitro 17:26, September 30, 2009 (UTC)