Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Colonies and Collapsing Mother Countries
I was wondering if there should be some rule about what happens to a colony when the mother nation collapses. For example, Japan still has a global empire, despite the fact that Joseon and Vietnam are invading it from both sides. Should the colonies be reclaimed by the natives, become idependent, or be snatched up by other colonial powers once the main nation goes down? LurkerLordB 19:46, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should a Mother country collapse like japan, the colonies should break off and depending on whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have not accepted colonists culture (return territory back to original state), whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have accepted colonists culture (and vice versa (become an independant nation either aligned or un-aligned with the mother country)) and whether they are mainly inhabited by colonists with colonists culture (will remain by mother countries side until the end) appropriate dealings should be exacted, for instance a colony heavily populated by japanese with a heavy japanese culture won't suddenly become say dutch again or won't turn back into unpopulated lands. Kunarian 20:05, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

In real life, there was no "rules" about this topic. Usually the colonies just go into limbo. When Napoleon invaded the Netherlands, suprisingly many of the Dutch colonies continued as normal, and the Dutch regained control later. Should Vietnam and Joseon capture Japan, the colonies become independent. Because of colonization's extent during this time (which didn't affect social structure too much, unless the colonies are Spanish style encomienda states, in which they would be fully independent, although this is not the case with Japan), the colonies would probably collapse into weak quasi-independent duchies overlapping with local countries. Or Vietnam/Joseon can capture the colonies, but they have to be allowed to by colonial restrictions. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:31, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Edits
Guys, I thought it was clear enough that anything on the page preceding the actual game is to be kept presentable at all times and in most cases only to be touched by mods, unless you're signing up. Don't post personal comments in the area or remove anything, especially the map. Feel free to upload your own maps as long as they are in the correct format, but don't remove the key or anything. We want to keep the game presentable for possible new recruits, and I can't be on at all times to make sure this is kept. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:19, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, just didn't know where to submit maps. Kunarian 01:21, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

You were right to upload it in the correct name, but you don't need to do anything else. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:10, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I want join
Hellow! I want join this game (as France) but i don't understand the colonisation system. Can somebody explain it to me? Thanks ^^ --Galaguerra1 02:28, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

We already have someone playing as France. Would you like to play as another nation? Just look at the map included at the top of this page and see if you like any of the other, unused nations.

Yank 02:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, in the list of nations in Europe, France's user has been removed due to inactivity, so you can play as France. The map just hasn't been updated. (France and Burgundy both need to be recolored light grey) LurkerLordB 02:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Map problems
OK, when Kunarian uploaded the new map, he forgot to add a bunch of stuff to the map (such as all of Russia's expansion for the past decade, and all of the expansion of Ricasolia on Cuba, the division of Japan, and Hungary's civil war is over now). I don't want to seem insulting to him, but the past two maps are both messed up and now have numerous revisions because he wasn't paying attention to what other people had posted. I think the last two maps he made should be deleted and then recreated so that they are accurate without having to wait more than a week for the wikia images to auto-update themselves. LurkerLordB 16:18, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think he was trying to do the entire map. Rules prohibit non-moderators (or non-mapmakers for that matter) from editing countries other than their own. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:50, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your complaints but as DK said I was just trying to do my Venetian moves. Kunarian 18:57, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't i said that if i missed somtehing you could just point that out?anyway, as LurkerLordB said, you could upload it with other name.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:14, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be a good idea next time to upload it as a different name and not use it as the official map if you are just going to show your parts instead of everything else so no one is confused. LurkerLordB 19:07, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

However, this part of him editing only that and trying to post it as map of the game (he could have gotten a other title, instead of using the template.matter of fact, the color the he puts to venice in the map doesn't even match the key.) without any updates... {C}i talked to him that if i made a mistake in Venice's territory he could talk to me about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

China also captured a fair amount of Guatemala, Honduras, and the southern Yucatan. CrimsonAssassin 16:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * My version of the map has this updates.but the display of the upside of the main page has his map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I just want to point out that we need to remove the colour for the Kelts from the key. What I don't understand is that the Kelts haven't been playing for centuries and they are still mentioned on the key. And the fact that Switzerland/Burgundy is still on the map even though the player quit months ago.

Yank 19:01, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I still say that deleting the map entirely and then uploading a new one will be better due to the horrendous lag that wikia has. LurkerLordB 00:50, September 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Leave it be for now. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:40, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

In-Game Discussion of 1660

 * I have repeatedly said that New Lithuania controls ALL territory south of the Joseon colony. Why does the map maker repeatedly ignore that long thin island to the west of the other Phillipine islands?
 * Calm down. That wasn't Collie or me who uploaded the map. And also, you should really try to learn the name of the island before trying to make your case. Just saying. It makes you seem unworthy of owning it. -DK
 * It's name is Palawan. I think I asked for it by name once, but no one listened.
 * Okay, found it in an earlier post. Sorry about that, it will be on the next map.
 * Fixed it.
 * Also, Sweden annexed East and West Doitsuchou.
 * Also Nippon is the vassal state of Vietnam, not Joseon. Why is it coloured in Joseon's purple instead of Vietnam's blue?
 * Wait.Kunarian made the map, and in my version it is still in gray because i don't know how it is gonna be divided. can somebody inform me what territories go to each country in the division of japan?
 * Actually, in the new map, the southern part of Japan appears to be of a different shard of purple than either Vietnam or Joseon.
 * That's not the point. I look at the map and the colour for Nippon looks more like Joseon's than Vietnam's. Shouldn't a Vietnamese vassal state have a colour simmilar to Vietnam's? It worked that way for New Lithuania, so why not Nippon?
 * Its supposed to be the Nipponese Vassal of Vietnam. However I could not find the map colours and so tried to improvise and came up with something that is almost indistiguishable from Joseon and hard to see as related to Vietnam much to my discontent.
 * Where is located your Nuovo Venetia colony? there are two russian colonies in north america.
 * Its below the most southern north american Russian colony.

(-unsigned)

In-game discussion is okay on the page, even though it breaks the flow, but if you put in on here, make sure that you put whose post it is in reply to, and what year. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * In the archive last time some guy was posting a bunch of the stuff taken from the page onto the talk page to try to clear it up. I just thought that such a large coversation (more than just 1-3 lines) was taking up space. It related to the map problems, so I just moved it under that. BTW, how do you archive a talk page? The little number is there but red, and all the stuff is still on this page. LurkerLordB


 * Yeah, Oerwinde. He's the chief of the map games, but I figured the conversations didn't bother me too much. I appreciate you trying to undertake the work of the mods but for now I would prefer if you would just kind of learn what's going on first. And to answer your question, archiving is done manually via copy/paste. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:15, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Chinese Wars
Excuse me for the delays, but I finally got time to finish the two algorithms for the Chinese wars:

{C}

To CrimsonAssassin, there is a program called ImageJ which is useful for calculating the amount of pixels, to make it easier for you to deal with such a large amount of new territory. Also, out of 2,539 territory gained, Hanthawaddy is going to take 1/4, or 635 pixels as part of the deal, leaving you with 1904. Feel free to use these pixels in any way you want. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:30, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take Guatemala and Honduras. CrimsonAssassin 16:16, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for a treaty. It would make the game more interesting then doling out OTL countries, and it gives you a bit of extra territory if you want it. I have the Mosquito Coast and Panama, so I'm fine. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:55, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that sounds great. CrimsonAssassin 17:35, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Can I Join?
Hey i'am new to this wiki but I know Crimson irl. He will show me around the site. Do you mind if I join as Japan?Eldwolf 16:53, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Go for it, man. CrimsonAssassin 16:55, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

Be aware that Vietnam and Joseon are in a war against Japan and Vietnam installed a vassal state on Southern Japan.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:01, September 19, 2011 (UTC)

new nation?
since I can't be Japan i would like to Spain if thats ok? also i'am not trying to be a dick but your really should show Japan as being owned not as a unused country.Eldwolf 15:42, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Dude don't worry, play spain, its a good and interesting choice. I find it annoying that they didn't even try and roleplay you out but then again at least you can have your way in spain. Kunarian 16:20, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the agreement between Joseon and Vietnam for the division of Japan was made not long ago, and before that, it was in civil disarray.And, the list of nations is largely outdated. {C}P.S. - Spain also is on civil disarray.but this doesn't matter.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:18, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

The reason it is shown as being unused is because of a huge confusion due to a mistake in uploading the map earlier. Hopefully by the next map-time this tiring saga of the map troubles will be over. LurkerLordB 21:35, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Cuban Crusade
So, should an algorithim be made for the Cuban crusade? I assume that the Mamluks would still be in contact with their colony (although they may not be able to supply much aid due to recently being in civil disarray and badly losing a war with the Ottomans. LurkerLordB 23:57, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Basically. I'll do it this weekend if I have time or you can do it. Yeah, some Mamluks would still there but seeing that the Sultanate is now several small states, the numbers might be more limited. Incidentally, does anyone own/have heard of FileMaker Pro? It's something I've been using to make the algorithms easier to calculate. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:10, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

The motive for Naples is religious by the way. The one for the Mamluks will differ depending on whether or not it is Naples vs. Colony or Naples vs. Mamluk empire. Vs colony the Mamluks will fight in self defense, Vs. Empire it will be political or economic wish to retain control over the colony. I can't post again until this war is over, because it has dragged on for too long. LurkerLordB 01:48, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

It will be "Mamluk settlers," not the actual Mamluk Empire fighting. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:10, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

The New Algorithim should be added to the Rules page so it can be more accesable. LurkerLordB 04:18, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

For the sake of posting, I am going to assume that Naples has occupied the Mamluk colony, as there have been no algorithims and this war should have ended several years ago. If the algorithim turns against me, I will state that a revolt broke out later. LurkerLordB 01:31, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm
Could you show me how you do it on a website like that so I can do it for AvAr? Thanks! PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 01:03, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese-Irish War
I've postponed the start of the war until 1686, which is the earliest I can make a new colony anyway. I do believe that the resulting twenty-three years of military expansion would make my victory much more certain than it would if I did it now.

Yank 03:23, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, usually we don't delete talk messages but since it was just you and me I will allow it. Also, Hanthawaddy can offer support via Iceland and nearby places. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:46, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Issues With the New Map
I have a problem with the new map. Nippon is simply not big enough. At least the last map showed that Nippon controlled former Japanese territory up to the Edo line, even if it was in the wrong colour. The Nipponese should have control of the territory up to the Sendai line. It's reasonable, as most of the Japanese people think that Nippon is a Japanese state, and not an invading force like Joseon. So that they will not resist Nippon the same way they do to Joseon.

--Yank 15:57, September 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * in my current edition of the 1665 map (already on the making) i extended yout territory to the Sendai line, but, it is a straight line?i want to make sure that i won't make a mistake giving more territory to Nippon on the east coast.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:02, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

I don't want it to be perfectly straight. I want there to be something of a curve in it, as the line was surveyed human surveyers, and so there's going to be imperfections just like any other border.

Yank 16:14, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

No one conquers half of Japan in 5 years. Not Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and not Minamoto Yoritomo. There isn't that kind of power imbalance. Just spread it out. The Japanese are in civil disarray and they got guns. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:01, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Also sweden has had control of West Doitsuchou for a while but it hasn't been on the map. Scandinator

Try twenty years (or so). The Vietnamese have aided the Nipponese regain their territory on and off since 1641. So it's not so implausible.

Yank 02:33, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm Poland/Hungary vs. Moldavia
I resolved to make one because Poland just left a war with the former government of Hungary. {C}I don't know if it's correct, because they say something about 1.5 if the country isn't in full unity, and i didn't understand how to apply it in a algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:32, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Moldavia
Total:29
 * Next to the location of war:4
 * Strength:3 (Moldavia)
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Life or death:10
 * Chance (random): 7
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5
 * Participating on war:10

Poland
Total:32
 * Close to the location of war: 3
 * Strength: 6 (Poland, Hungary)
 * Greater population: 2
 * Expansion of military:2
 * Expansion:0
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Owned area for 0 years:0
 * Chance: 4
 * Editcount:1793
 * Time: 16:55
 * 1x6x5x5 = 150
 * 1793/150 = 11,953333333333333333333333333333 x pi = 37,5525042
 * Participating on war:10

Result

 * 32/62 = 0,516129032
 * 0,516129032-0,5 = 0,016129032
 * 0,016129032 x2 = 0,032258064 - 2,22%
 * Area of Moldavian territory:1883 px.

Polish victory. Poland is entitled to 3,22% of Moldavian territory, or 60 px (3000 sq km).

Venice's extra Colony
Venice seems to have an extra colony, since according to the External territories page, they have founded three colonies within a couple decades, when the rules say you can only have 2 per 50 years. Where did this colony come from? LurkerLordB 21:39, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

I have already explained this, one was conquered not founded. Terra di Calore was taken from Hungary the other two were esstablished by Venice therefore it is allowed. As the first colony I established was Nuovo Venetia in 1660, I will have to wait until 1710 to establish a new colony. Kunarian 21:43, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, okay then. Sorry, I didn't see the first explanation. LurkerLordB 21:43, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, problem sorted. Besides Venice had no plans beyond these colonies so it would be a while before they set out again anyway. Kunarian 21:48, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Note you can't conquer a colony and expempt it from the 50 year rule. However, everyone is allowed a free colony. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:22, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

How can conquered colonies not be exempt from the 50 year rule? I didn't establish them, I simply took them over. So what does that mean, that someone who established two colonies isn't allowed to conquer colonies? Kunarian 00:11, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

What he is saying is that you can estabilish a new colony already in 1702, and not in 1710, since Terra Di Calore technically was the first colony, although it was conquered from another nation's colony.this means that Terra Di Calore enters within the 50 year rule, so you can estabilish a new colony 50 years after the "founding" (in this case, capture) of Terra Di Calore.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:06, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Altair & HRR
Since Altair, the guy controlling the Holy Roman Republic (at least, I think it was him) has been gone for quite some time, are the former papal states now "open" again to players or expansion within? LurkerLordB 21:59, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

By 1670 if theres no sign of Altair000, the Papal States will reemerge. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Venetian - Vietnamese War
Rolled back.

Venetian - Vietnam war talk (in character)

 * The Vietnamese-Irish War hasn't started yet. I'm delaying the start of the war to 1686 so that I have a better chance of winning. But make no mistake. I intend to capture either all or most of Ireland for their barbaric actions. The fact that you, as good Christians, can support what is effectively government-sanctioned murder is disgusting.
 * Keep in mind that Venice will and can defend its Christian ally, Ireland. It won't matter much more in 1686 due to the fact that by then Venice will be stronger than it is now by an even larger factor and Ireland will be then almost untouchable. Also these times are not ones of moral questioning by far off nations that have no right to be interferring in such distant lands against established nations. The Venetians will defend Irish soveriegnty, tradition and christianity to the last man.
 * Vietnam is Christian as well in this timeline.
 * I know hoever, the Doge believes that Vietnam is not a true christian state as true christian states do not attack other christian states, its also another reason why he looks down upon the invasion of Milan by the last Doge. He also believes that Vietnam should not be recognised as a true christian state as it started practicing recently unlike Ireland or Venice who have done so for more that a millenia.
 * Typical Catholic nonsense. Believing that you are superior simply because your enemy is of a different sect. You over-estimate your power. The Vietnamese will not invade Venice directly, but they will not be cowed by them. Furansuchou, Vietnam's enclave in Europe, is a fortress not so easily penetrated. By the time war occurs their defenses would be so much more formidable. I pray you lose this war, as it would teach you a lesson in humility you clearly need. And I suggest you read up on conflicts such as the Thrity Years War, which was "waged" with Christians on both sides. And why would a "true Christian state" tolerate what Ireland is doing to every shipwrecked sailor discovered on their shores? Even Venetian sailors have become victims of Irish butchery.
 * The Venetians will teach you not to think so highly of yourself. And your statements against the Catholic nations, I hope that they will asist me in our war against you, to prove which are the true nations of God.

'''Remeber, I had no quarell with you. YOU chose to stick your nose where it didn't belong, and intervened in favor of a nation of murderers. They killed your sailors and you still help them. Your doge is either evil or insane.'''

Yank 20:15, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''My people do not judge the morals of a nation by the criminals who abuse its governments leniency and gifts of freedom. We judge it by the governments who act criminal when they are asked to be moral. {C}Kunarian 20:29, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''These aren't just a pack of thugs. They are a pack of murderers sponsored by the Irish government . It's the Irish who are acting criminal, and the Vietnamese who are justified. '''

Yank 20:39, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''There is no evidence that the Irish Government is sponsering them, they simply aren't combating it. And it is silly that you would declare war over a few criminals actions and try and represent them as the entire Irish nation. Also the Doge thinks that this is just a Vietnamese ploy to gain territory in europe. Kunarian 20:46, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Then your doge is an absolute fool. Ireland is a blank nation. That means it can been "filled in" by anyone who wants to do so. And they are a pack of thugs and criminals. You had no business meddling in my affairs. Why can't you stay of of my business? There are plenty of nations that you can ally with. '''

Yank 20:52, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Just because you say one thing doesn't mean its absolute, I like Ireland and can fill it in too with things, just because you said criminal, doesn't mean that there can't be an alternate side to the story. Besides you are and have been meddling in the affairs of europe which the Venetians hate more than anything, especially the Doge. This was never about allies but imperialism and the way that some nations do need oppose it. Kunarian 20:57, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Europe had been imperialist for centuries. I wanted to bring Imperialism back to the continent that spawned it. And you forget that you did not type one single word even implying a relationship between Ireland and Venice. You just stuck your nose where it didn't belong. Your behavior is really starting to piss me off.'''

Yank 21:03, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''I established that there were both Irish Citizens in Venice and Irish Mercenaries in the army, and good ones at that, I also established that we had limited trade with Ireland, clearly the Venetian Government is on good terms with the Irish Government and the Venetian people are on good terms with the Irish people. Venice is involved trade wise with almost every major and minor soveriegn nation it can be, Venice is the trade capital of the world at the moment due to its huge comercial fleet, so Venice naturally wants to defend its interests. Also the Venetian Doge hates the fact that nations he considers non-christian are being given free will to colonise lands they have no natural right to. Kunarian 21:13, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''You're willing to overlook the fact that the Irish government has at least encouraged the murder of Venetian sailors? And for the last time "Non-Catholic" does not mean "Non-Christian"'''

Yank 21:16, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''There may be factions within that encourage it like there are extremist factions within all our governments however the main front of the government does not support it nor look down on it, it is neutral. And Non-Catholic does not mean Non-Christian, however Veitnams actions could hardly be called Christian, the pope would look down on such heavy violence proposed against another Christian nation. As far as Venice is concerned Vietnam should be Excommunicated. Kunarian 21:20, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''How can Vietnam be excommunicated when they aren't even Catholics! They have their own Christian Church to follow. The only non-Christian behavior is done by Ireland. This isn't about religion. It's about you being an oppportunistic greedy idiot who used any half-baked he could get his hands on to steal another user's territory. All over a country that ceased to be a factor in international relations centuries ago!'''

Yank 21:30, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Excommunication is not limited to Catholics and excommunication has other penalties other than simply being shunned by the Church, plus the fact that Vietnam does not follow the Pope is more reason for Venice to fight agianst it in favour of Ireland. This is about a number of factors, not just territory, besides, I would seperate the territory and give some back to natives (eg: South Afica, South America), some to nations (eg: France, Spain) and keep only a little territory for myself (eg: Carribean Islands). Also you made it a major international factor by planning a war agianst it on such a scale. Kunarian 21:37, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''I just wanted to neutralize you, as I had no intentions of actually fighting you. But apparently the best I could do was to get the others to not jump on the "We Hate Vietnam" bandwagon. '''

Yank 21:50, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Then why not let this war go through, then we can rebuild relations between the west and east. Because the Catholic nations don't want anything other than Catholics in Europe preferably and so they haven't jumped on a "We hate Vietnam" bandwagon but a "We prefer Catholics" Bandwagon. Kunarian 21:53, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

'''Besides, I had no interest in Italian territory. Ireland was to be the full extent of Vietnamese imperialism in Europe. '''

Yank 21:54, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

'''Problem is Venice doesn't know that and I don't even know that now. Ireland could have been the final prize or the first stepping stone and still could be either. If you want I can give you the demands and concessions on each side so that you can get a view of what will essentailly happen in the end and whether you want to renegotiate it. Kunarian 21:58, September 24, 2011 (UTC)'''

Algerian War
Putting up a section for a war the Vietnamese and the French have started in the Ziyanid Sultanate in Algeria.

Yank 22:39, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

The war algorithm must be done for a mod or I can do it? --Galaguerra1 17:43, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

if you be impartial and knows how to do it, you can. read the rules in how to make a algorythm on the top of the page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:33, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I prefer that a mod does it :P --Galaguerra1 20:31, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden
Total: 44
 * Location: 3 near the location of the war
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Sweden, Joseon, Venice: 9
 * Military Expansion: 11
 * Territorial Expansion: -1
 * Motive is religious: 7
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 4
 * Has not owned the area: 0

Russia
Total: 30
 * Location: 5 at the location of the war
 * Russia/ Two Vassals, Hanthawaddy, Lithuania, China: 18
 * Greater Population: 2
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Territorial Expansion: -10
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * Participating: 10
 * Chance: 0
 * Has owned the area for 151+ years: -5

Discussion
I made a few changes off the top of my head. Note that if the war includes Swedish soil, which is not up to you, it will change the location up a bit. Wait for him to reply before putting the total. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:07, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I had to change it a bit, since China declared support for Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:21, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden should also have Venetian support btw Kunarian 21:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Can I see the math for whoever did chance? Is Russia's chance 0 or to be determined? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:52, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

More updates to the algorithm
Well, I was waiting for a period of peace but doesn't look like that's coming anytime soon…changes will be effective to all wars that have not yet started:


 * Instead of doing population as simply the greater population getting more points, we could instead take the number of digits in the country's population. This is not too hard to estimate, but when in doubt, halfway in between is always an option. For example, if China (pop 1,300,000,000) today declared war on San Marino (14,000), China would get 10 points and San Marino would only get 5. This is until we can get an effective system of power. I assume most players have between 1,000,000 and 99,999,999 people so it doesn't make too much of a difference. It just seems natural that a small duchy should not go up against a huge superpower. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:43, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Would this be effective for the Ottoman-Hungarian War?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Algoryth: Hungary vs. Ottoman Empire
This will be provisory.if i get allies, or they get allies, it will be changed. {C}The location of the war is on the Hungarian borders and OTL Western Greece.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:08, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary
Total = 40
 * Far from the location of war:2
 * Strength:12 (Hungary, Poland, Venice, France)
 * Military expansion:3
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance:1815/240xpi = 23,7582944 = 8
 * Editcount:1815
 * 6x5x8 = 240
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 0 years:0

Ottoman Empire
Total = 22
 * Close to the location of war:3
 * Strength:3 (Ottoman Empire)
 * Motive - Religious:7
 * Greater population:2
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance (random):2
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5

Result
40/62 = 0,64516129
 * 0,64516129-0.5 = 0,14516129
 * 0,14516129x2 = 0,29032258 = 29%
 * Ottoman area:36564px

Result: Hungarian victory.Hungary may annex 29% of Ottoman territory, or 10,603 px (530,150 sq km).Additional concessions may be made via treaty.

Discussion
Note that the Hungarian motive is political, since the objective is conquer the parts of Europe (Balkans) owned by the Ottoman Empire.not taking all the empire.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

May I join the War however in a "I'm going to also take land style" which will still {C} give you support however I would also like to take back some Venetian lands, displayed in the map here, just say if it causes any problems. Kunarian 15:51, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Venice
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total = 41
 * Far from the location of war: 2
 * Strength: 9 (Hungary, Poland, Venice)
 * Military expansion: 9
 * Motive - Political: 5
 * Expansion: -2
 * Chance: 207/7xpi = 92.9013828: 8
 * Editcount: 207
 * 1x7x0x0 = 7
 * Participating on War: 10
 * Owned area for 0 years:0

Ottoman Empire
<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial;">Total = 29
 * Close to the location of war: 3
 * Strength: 3 (Ottoman Empire)
 * Motive - Religious:7
 * Greater population: 2
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance (random): 9
 * Participating on War:10
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5

Discussion
Minor changes due to the time tht you actually declared war, which influenced on the Venetian chance.i also did the chance for the Ottomans at random.org.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:57, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm:Portugal x Spain
Since Portugal is a player nation, this requires a algorythm.still not complete.waiting for Sevestron to respond to the declaration of war (or not), so we can calculate the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:01, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Spain

 * Next to the location of war:4
 * Strength:6 (Spain, Venice)
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Motive - Political:5
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance:7/30 x pi = 0,733038286 = 6
 * Editcount:7
 * 1x6x5x1 = 30
 * Owned area for 0 years:0
 * Participating on war:10
 * Total = 32

Portugal

 * At the location of war:5
 * Strength:3 (Portugal)
 * Motive - Life or Death:10
 * Military expansion:0
 * Expansion:0
 * Chance:(undefined)
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5
 * Participating on war:10
 * Total = 23

Second Chinese Algorythm
Hey, I don't know if I have the authority to do the chances or not and I don't know if I need the chart used in the previous algorythm for the Chinese conquest of Central America. Anywho, can someone make an algorythm please? CrimsonAssassin 12:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian's potential rule violations
Kunarian has recently begun to violate numerous rules of this game. First, he has added way more vassal states than the current limit (2, according to the rules page), as well as the fact that most are not contiguous to his nation. Once more, for many of those he didn't give any sort of RP reason for the conquerings (He just proclaims that Venice rules over Savoy, without mentioning any dispute, dynastic union, or other reasons for his domination) He has also gone over the current maximum number of allowed colonies per 50 year period, edited the main map without permission (resulting in the huge mix-up that occured earlier), as well as shown unrealistic strength for a nation that just fought for its independence (within a few years of a revolution against the Papal states, he defeated a much larger nation and then began to conquer other Italian states as well. Something must be done. LurkerLordB 21:13, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * About Savoy, these are claims they had ben not made yet.

And, the rules state that is possible to make supernational confederations, and his may be one, (the states on a supernational confederation won't count as vassals).--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Venice would not rule over the other ones, but in this case, Venice controls the other states, even if loosely. LurkerLordB 21:23, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry posted before you two but there was an edit conflict.

I have explained they are not vassal states but you fail to recognise this fact, I asked DK and Collie about it and there was a resounding answer that I had to make a Union like the Holy Roman Empire or have 2 vassals so I made a Union. Also the Union of the northern states is easily likely to happen due to events thanks to the HRR and Naples itself. Also I have only made claim to Savoy not conquered it, I made that clear, DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CLAIM AND A CONQUEST? Also I have conquered one colony and established two the conquered one does not count. I have edited the map as it says in the rules, to give a map detailing my moves, did you read them enough? The algorithm states that I won against Hungary and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conquests. Also I didn't conquer them, you saw how well that went with Milan, I incorporated them into a Union. Something must be done about your lack of understanding of my moves. Kunarian 21:24, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Now for the unpdated post, Venice controls them as a central government and can control them quite well due to the benefits Venice has brought and the security that the northern states have always striven for. Kunarian 21:25, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

A Union would have all the states equal, not Venice ruling over them. Also, you can't just claim nations and not expect them to resist at least some. There is a reason why all the Italian states didn't unite before, and there is a reason that in real life they only united after several foregin invasions, revolutions, and wars. There is absolutely no reason why the northern states would react in response to Naples, because Naples signed a peace treaty with all of them after getting Corsica that they would expand no further into Italy. Yankovic, who is on the moderator list, stated that taking colonies by war is not an exception to the 2 colonies rule. I do not understand "and DK I assume saw the flaw in such a penalty for having a union/vassals so removed it, not my territorial conflicts". Please explain. Also, there is no reason to shout at people with capital letters. LurkerLordB 21:36, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I changed the title and some stuff that I was afraid may have been too confrontational. LurkerLordB 21:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the rules stating that it is okay to have more than 2 colonies if you conquer one. Personally I would love to be able to use conquest to establish/expand colonies. I would finish off the Morrocan Marinid Sultanate and be done with it. Regardless it is still a violation of the rules, and should be punished as such.

Yank 21:45, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Its a confederate union were they have flexibility that gives them contentment to be part of the union, however Venice being the big breadwinner makes the rules so to say, what your saying is like saying that Prussia didn't rule over the states in Germany as key holder during the first decades of the German Empire. The northern states value security and soveriegnty over all things and so being in a Confederate Union is about as far as they would go plus the Papal states tried to conquer them quite violently so too, also Naples ripped up the treaty saying that they would defend the nations of italy and not expand so naturally they are going to be even more drawn to a Union. Also look on DK's talk page and you will see that Yankovic is suspended for the time being of his moderator priviledges. Plus the rules themselves clearly states that ESTABLISHING only counts and conquering is very different to that. Basically about the rule, I can assume that DK thought that the previous war algorithms which made nations with vassals or in personal dynastic unions lose 33% of their warscore was a bit unfair and unrealistic after Venice's crushing victory so removed it in the latest renewment of the rules.

Also thank you for change some things, makes it less of an arguement and more of a debate.

Btw Yank it's not a violation of the rules so lets wait for DK to come along and sort this ok, I think we both got in our points. Kunarian 21:47, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I calmed down and see that I may have overreacted a bit. I didn't see what DK posted on Yank's page, so I will wait for the moderators to decide this policy. I will accept your dominance of the north Italian states as long as you RP the two small ones and South Savoy joining (perhaps with some resistance). I did see your point on the main page about the Mamluk colonies, I got a bit impatient after several years of posting "Naples prepares its forces, if the Mamluks are going to send troops to free their colony", so I just said that they won and if someone ever made an algorithim I lost later I would have them break free. I'll have some general colonial resistance along the line. Just as long as you RP the occupation of Savoy and the two little states well, and perhaps show some problems with disunity, I will drop my claims against you, and will have more colonial dificulties (like that one recession earlier from overexpansion). However, in-game hostilities between Naples and Venice may continue... LurkerLordB 21:59, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have already begun deeply RPing them to join, for instance Milan would not join completely at this time at all. Also Savoy would not join at the moment as it is split into two major zones of influence, French and Italian. Also we need to RP the Venetian troops conflict in Cuba, because we both know why they are there and it has something to do with the words: Claim, Bahamas, Declined, Aggressive and Colonialism. And I understand about tensions so don't worry. Kunarian 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about this, the only known example of this case of colony conquering before Venice was when France bought a Brandenburgian colony in the 1580s.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:49, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in the colonization rules either confirming or refuting that colonies by conquest are immune from the normal rules of colonization. I'm inclined to believe that they aren't, as it would create an all-to-convienient loophole to an imprtant rule of the map game. And my name is still part of the list as the punishment was only until I got a better attitude, and I have. I no longer wish to invade Kunarian's precious Ireland. I still think that Kunarian's actions are still highly hypocritical. Even if we discont his actions in North Italy (and I don't think we should), he still has given Christian Spain support to invade the equally Christian sovreign nation of Portugal. The fact that he stood to prevent my invasion of Ireland and supports of Spain's invasion of Portugal stinks of favoritism and prejudice. He trots out messages of Christian unity only when they serve his purposes. In other words Kunarian has become another Janusary.

Yank 22:04, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

But Yank, loophole or not its how things actually worked OTL and how things should continue to work ATL, maybe a better thing to do would be to say that conquered colonies have penalties for a time such as limited expansion. There is no difference between Portugal and Ireland but the situation that it is occuring under, it could more be seen as a unification of the lands and plus it could be for more logical reasons that the invasion of Ireland. Plus I act as the Doge is supposed to and this new Doge is Christian with a strong sense of Unionism as I have RPed in game. Also no, Janusary did stupid mad things like revive his emperor while talking to his magic cat and firing missiles from the future. I simply have been very sucessful with my resources. Kunarian 22:11, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kunarian may be advancing a little fast, but he is definately not doing the ridiculous stuff that Janusary wasLurkerLordB 22:16, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember when he presented the keys of Delhi to the ghost of Jehoichim? Lol. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 22:19, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Or that time when Jahangir (which was, anyway?) resolved to get from India to Torquay in a rowboat?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:22, September 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I read his stuff and could not stop laughing, they were very entertaining especially the Emperors cat one. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

If you feel I am going too fast then I will slow down but I need to be able to work with nations because when conflict arises you need to move fast and so Venice has had to, It had a war with Hungary then wanted to secure itself against HRR and then moved to stop European expansion by outside powers and now it claims are actively being challenged and violated not even negotiated. Kunarian 22:26, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

From what I see, there's not a real problem, but I'm going to clarify a few rules. Colonies gained by conquest are just like any other colony. I remember stating that explicitly back during the Mughal War. Also, Kunarian, it is okay to have a loose confederation, but you can't simply annex other countries. I can kind of understand that Venice is kind of the liberal of the game, but normal old conquest of nearby nations rarely fails. Another option, a major personal union of Milan and Venice might cause many other nations to become sattelites, and eventually be incorporated after several decades. Be creative. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:41, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Mamluk Cuba War
Next turn I will post that the Venetian aid to the Mamluk resisters caused a conflict. Be warned, the Mamluk Cuba war will be very messy... LurkerLordB 22:34, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Posted about it, I think we should make this conflict slowly evolve to be one of the most bloody proxy wars in history, would be pretty interesting actually. I think we should make it last and make it interesting and entertaining. Kunarian 22:38, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

My main idea is that it won't just be a war between Naples and Venice over that colony, that the native tribes and Mamluks will all revolt turning it into chaos. LurkerLordB 22:52, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Considering Venice supporting all these other wars it would make sense for it to be a Venetian-Mamluk-Native Coalition using both conventional and unconventional warfare Versus Naples and turncoats using conventional warfare primarily. And for there still to be a balance of power that would even out every time a new side joined their rivals joined the other side. Kunarian 22:58, September 27, 2011 (UTC)