Talk:Saguenay War (1983: Doomsday)

Archive (Note: I think this is the first Doomsday article that needed an archive besides the portal page.)

Military
Lets be realistic. after doomsday, the Candaian military would be more concerned with protecting the country against bandits and providing SAR, transport, etc, not fighting a major war. light infantry transported by helicopters and with CF-5 freedom fighters providing support would take the place of tanks and mass battles, providing a military similar to OTL mexico.--HAD 10:00, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

and what kind of air defence assets does sanguney have? i suppose they would not have jet fighters, would they?--HAD 10:00, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

It seems very likely that Sanguenay could leave the War gaining Gaspe and maybe some international recognition. To be blunt, they seem to be wiping the floor with the Canadians. And I think the Celtic Alliance should keep its nose out of North American affairs. I get seriously steamed every time I read the blatently imperialist statements of the Celts. It doesn't matter that both the Celts and the Canadians are members of the former British Commonwealth, because as far as I can tell they have had as much rason to eenter the war as New Britain: None whatsoever. There was no Maine-style scandal to get them riled up. It is just them putting their collective noses where they don't belong. And the Maine-style refers to the Maine the American vessel whose mysterious sinking in Havana harbor sparked the Spanish-American war. --Yankovic270 13:11, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but the Celts are a member of the ADC. They are just honouring there treaty obligations. anyway, how are Sanguenay advancing so fast? surely they would be under air attack every step of the way, as well as attacks by the canadian ground forces?--HAD 13:15, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Canadians weren't expecting an attack on the Gaspe peninsula, some of their army had already moved to North Quebec when the attack began. They had plans for this in the works for a while. --DarthEinstein 13:37, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

True, but like i said, surely the candaian air command would be on the attack? --HAD 13:42, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Apparently not, as it let the Sanguenayans kick Canadian butt over and over and over again. I don't think there has been a battle where airpower is an actual factor. Combat has, in my opinion, reverted to pre-1914 standards for at least the absolte lack of air support. --Yankovic270 16:24, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Canadians have limited air support, but (evidently) not enough to hold back Saguenay at this point. But Canadian forces, in the air, on land, and at sea, are reorganising and preparing to take back the peninsula. And once the Canada First Party wins the next election, pretty much all of the Canadian budget will go into the war and mass conscription will increase. With help from their ADC allies, I think it is possible for Canada to retake the peninsula.


 * Saguenay's victories are due to the element of surprise, as Canada has not fought a full scale war of this time since the Korean War, and that wasn't even in Canada.--DarthEinstein 16:30, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Even a nuclear war wouldn't wipe out 70 years of technological advancement. Canada would still have access to 80s weapons in the Atlatic provinces and could purchase more modern weapons from ANZC and SAC.  Even if you don't think an air force will change anything (which I seriously doubt) Canadian tanks would make trench warfare unlikely.  Mitro 16:40, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Mitro. The Canadians would have armoured superioty (Leopard 1), giving them an advantage.--HAD 15:30, September 24, 2009 (UTC) them

Very well. I still cannot belive that there was a time when our weapons weren't obsolete peices of crap. Anyway, I still believe the Sanguenayans could at least fight the Canadians to a bloody, blody stalemate. I just believe that there is no point to creating an article on a country only to destroy it. --Yankovic270 00:36, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Result of War again

 * The fate of the war, and of Saguenay, has not completely been decided yet. My current thoughts are that Canada will retake Gaspesie sometime in late October/early November, and beyond that I haven't decided. --DarthEinstein 00:46, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * My opinion is that there will at least be 80,000 soldiers from the Republic of Superior deployed in the general area, with about 60,000 of those positioned upon the Gaspe Peninsula, come October 10th. The most to be deployed will be 100,000 until Canada actually starts hitting back. The reason for this is that, though Superior now feels that Canada is rather weak (having been crushed by Saguenay just a couple of weaks ago) they want to be prepared for possible participation by the Celtic Alliance. When the Gaspe peninsula heat up again, they may increase that number. Lahbas 01:11, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Gaspe will be retaken about as quickly as it was lost, maybe a bit longer because Saguenay would obviously be prepared. But due to its suddeness, Superior might not get their reinforcements there in time to help. I do think, however, that Superior reinforcements would be able to defend Saguenay proper, and preserve Saguenay's independance. --DarthEinstein 01:56, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * For one, you are pitting an army of conscripts against a professional army. Conscripts NEVER do well in combat, unless they are vigorously trained. Second, you have to understand that the bill has to be passed first, and it really depends on how many Canada First delegates are in the Parliament as to the speed this would be achieved.

I personally looked up basic training for Canada, which is suprisingly low, but still high. 20 days. That is for a reserve member of the Land Forces, and I do not expect it to go any lower than that. The reason for this is that for one, Canada has to expect a heavily entrenched enemy to be in the Gaspe Peninsula by now. Two, sending men with little to no training into a firefight is suicide. I admit that many will likely know how to handle basic weapons at this stage, BASIC, like hunting rifles. What really needs to be done is phycological training, so that they do not cut and run when they begin to see the bodies drop. Third, the Canada First Party just came from the fringe to the forefront of the Canadian political field. They will NOT want to become part of the fringe again. As a result, they would not launch a rapid invasion of the Gaspe Peninsula, but at the same time would reject any diplomatic approach, so as not to appear weak.

As a result, the Republic of Superior WILL be stationed in Gaspe, when the counter-attack does finally occur. However, will it be a rapid re-conquest? No. If anything, Canada will likely either get another bloody nose, or there will be a stalemate, where Canada is able to hold a beach-head on the Peninsula, but is not able to push inland. Lahbas 03:30, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think that canada will be able to retake the peninsular. they have the advantages of a larger industrial base, a better equiped military and allies on the international scene.--HAD 08:05, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you've read the Canada page, you'll see that the Canada First party is not coming off the sidelines - true, they have never formed the government, but they are the second most powerful party. They're basing their political campaign on decisive action, so they would want to retake the Gaspe peninsula. And what I meant by Superior not having reinforcements there, I meant more reinforcements, as they obviously would have some troops there. Also, sometime the Canadians will find the Saguenay naval base and likely destroy it, cutting Gaspe off from supplies from the mainland.


 * However, I do see what you mean by sending untrained conscipts in. How about we push the retaking of the peninsula to the winter or spring. By that time, their army, even the conscripts, should be trained well enough. --DarthEinstein 12:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Offensives in the Winter never work, unles you have overpowering force, and many wars have actually tried to avoid such offensives. (The Soviet Union is the only time that this would really be the case, but they were taking MILLIONS of extra casualties as a result). This would have to push such an offensive back until the spring. Even then that means that there will likely be more troops stationed on the Peninsula from the Republic of Superior, fortified, dug-in, etc. The Sagueyan Army would be equiped with Superian weapons as well. In my opinion, Saguenay has won the war at this point, just because time in not in Canada's favor.

What could turn it around is if the Celtic Alliance or other Atlantic Treaty nations jump in to support Canada, though I think only the Celtic Alliance at this point will jump in, largely because of the rhetoric coming from it. The reasoning for this is comparable to the War in Afghanistan right now. Though NATO is commited to the conflict, many nations do not want to be involved any longer. This feeling is heightened in the Doomsday world, since some nations still face fierce domestic problems. The Nordic Union military is largely for self-defence just in size, the Confederation of Greece needs to remain in the Meditterranean to protect itself from Sicily, while Portugal and Pais de Oro are only remnents, and are concentrating on reclaiming the Iberian Peninsula.

What probably will happen is that the war expands out of the Gaspe Peninsula into New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, following a refusal of the Canadian Government to acquiese to a peace treaty. These are the main points that I believe that such a treaty would entail:

Saguenay


 * Recognition of its independence from the Canadian Remainder Provinces


 * Transfer of the Gaspe Peninsula to Saguenay


 * The Gulf of St. Lawrenece and the area of former New Brunswick become demilitarized zones

Republic of Superior


 * Canada will drop its claims to the Great Lakes region


 * Canada will allow the Republic of Superior entrance to the League of Nations

Canada


 * Canadian military will at no time consist of more then 10,000 men


 * Most of the Canadian Fleet will be transfered to Saguenay to form its own naval force

Extreme, but I would think this is what they are aiming for. On another note, the road that was proposed to be built to ensure trade to the East for the Republic of Superior will have become a priority, and therefore be completed by the Spring, allowing for the easy movement of troops and supplies to the war front. I write to much :) Lahbas 15:50, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I like this treaty a lot. But I think the Sanguenayans would push for one more condition for Canada: The destruction of the Canada First Party as a legal political party. I think that they blame them for killing their leader and sparking of the whole war. --Yankovic270 16:08, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don’t like the treaty. Things seem to be way to easy for Superior and Saugenay while Canada, one of the world powers of this TL, seems to be falling apart at the seams.  Superior is acting like an aggressive rogue state attempting to deny Canada's claims to territories in the Great Lake region that they have a lawful claim to.  No way will the LoN welcome Superior in after this.  Meanwhile the ADC is apparently going to be useless because of a domestic tension, while Superior who from their legislatures vote only has a slight majority in favor of the war apparently suffers no negative effects on the homefront.  The current suggestions are just implausible.  The original idea to have an LoN negotiated white peace is still the most plausible.  Before and after the creation of the LoN, the nations of the world have worked to maintain the current borders (look at the Sicily crisis).  I can’t see them simply sitting back and allowing Canada to lose its sovereign territory.  I truly think it’s likely that if Saugenay/Superior refuses to leave Gaspe the LoN will get involved.  Mitro 16:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also some of the provisions in this proposed treaty read like the Treaty of Versailles. No way is it plausible for Canada to limit its armies or surrender most of its navy.  Meanwhile Superior is still putting way too many forces to the front.  They have to travel across raider territory without access to good roads or railways.  I’m not even sure how much oil reserves Superior has (oil isn’t that abundant in the Great Lakes) so I doubt that many trucks are being used.  Mitro 16:40, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the treaty on one part: Canada will refuse it. Thats the kind of peace deal that would be signed if Saguenay and Superior advanced and occupied the Canadian capitol, wiped out most of Canada's military, and were at peace with all of Canada's allies. And its a spiteful peace deal, the kind given to agressors in war like Japan and Germany at the end of WW2. Lets not forget that while a member of the CFP gave casus belli, this is a war of Saguenayan agression. With Saguenay being the agressor, and unrecognized internationally, this will be very bad diplomatically for Superior as they are in essence interfering in a civil war, and are fighting against the recognized democratically elected government.--Oerwinde 16:50, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Since I don’t want to be accused of complaining without offering any alternatives, here is my proposed treaty: Mitro 16:54, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Saguenay and Superior forces will evacuate the Gaspe peninsula. LoN peacekeepers will patrol the border.
 * Saguenay is recognized diplomatically, while Saguenay and Superior are given membership in the LoN.
 * Canada drops claims to the former Province of Ontario. LoN will hold referendums in Superior territories in the former province of Ontario to confirm whether they want to continue to remain associated with Superior.
 * A LoN sponsored commission will decide the fate of ownership over the St. Lawrence River area.
 * Can we break this talk page up into something OTHER than a HUGE divisionless monster?
 * I've voiced my repeated opinion on the military capacity of Superior, and their participation in this war. I agree 100% with Mitro that the volume of troops and the distances that they're travelling are, frankly, RIDICULOUS for this timeline.
 * Mitro's suggestions of the alternate treaty are much more reasonable and realistic for the timeline and the zeitgeist of the timeline, something that I fear is not very present in all members of this war.
 * Regardless of my frequently stated misgivings of Superior's military capacity, I still don't see how they're going to support their troops without getting thrown out of Sanguenay, because, frankly, with winter coming, do you REALLY think you're going to continue to get large amounts of supply through hostile and impassable territory? Louisiannan 17:48, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think if the Canadians want to really screw with the Saguenay/Superior alliance, they need to avoid a massive campaign to retake Gaspe. They need to move on Saguenay proper. In order to take Gaspe so quickly, they would have had to commit a lot of forces, and with the discussion showing the RoS forces reinforcing Gaspe, the strategic thing to do would be to take southern Saguenay and blockade the St Lawrence, cutting off supplies and reinforcements to the troops in Gaspe. This would force the troops in Gaspe to either pull out to defend Saguenay, or stay with no supply lines or reinforcements while Canada digs in in Saguenay resupplying and gathering allies to retake Gaspe.--Oerwinde 18:00, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * About Mitro's treaty: I think that would work, however I think instead of Canada retracting claims to all of Ontario, I think it should only be Lake Superior and Lake Huron coastal regions, maybe the other Great Lakes.
 * About breaking the talk page up: Done.
 * About the general shape of the war: Perhaps a reconquista of Gaspe won't happen, and Canada will attack Saguenay proper instead. However, Saguenay will of course also know that this could happen, so troops will not all be concentrated in Gaspesie. It will need more thought.
 * About the upcoming election: If you look up what I said quite a while ago, you'll see that I mentioned a possible candidate for Canada First Party leadership (under its own subdivision on the page). I would still like your opinions about whether he could have survived Doomsday and would be in Canada. If not, then I'll have to get someone else to become the new Prime Minister. --DarthEinstein 19:55, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think, that if the war continues in Sanguenay/Superior's favor the treaty would have one extra condition. The absolute and total banning of the Canada First Party, as the Sangueyans would blame them for the war. --Yankovic270 20:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * The CFP would be the majority party at the time peace would be made, they wouldn’t just give up their power and fade quietly in the night. Also its really hard for a free, democratic nation to just up and ban a political party that from their POV was blameless (there is no evidence that they ordered the assassination, sometimes a lone nut is just a lone nut).  Saguenay can ask for whatever they want when they walk up to the negotiation table, but that is going to be the first thing they will drop.  The best they can get is that anyone who might have been involved is arrested and tried, but that is it.  Mitro 20:37, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Hillier as far as I can see was in Southern Germany in 1983, not too fer from the Swiss Border, so I think its likely he survived, but the question is whether or not he returned, or helped out in southern Germany. I guess that would be up to you.--Oerwinde 22:10, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * So it seems he would be picked up by the Alpine Confed. But the question is would he try to cross the Atlantic and return to his home? I don't think so. If anyone thinks of anyone else I can use, please tell me. --DarthEinstein 22:28, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Will I never make my point clear enough? Huuuuuhhhhh.........Yes, there is going to be domestic tension in the Republic of Superior, I just have not added it yet, something along the lined of the early Vietnam years, before it got really crazy. Again, a large part of this discontent was over the idea that if they intervened, they might lose the chance to get recognized on the international scene as a legitimate player. That, and the many former Canadians that live within the country at this time.

As to points of supply, troop sizes, etc, I only have to say this. I specifically remember at one point there were discussions that Saguenay was possibly allied with the gangs in the St. Lawrenece region, through arms trading in such, sort of like the US and Afghanistan in the 80's. Saguenay could of threatened to end shipments, or increase them with the support of Superior, in return for safe passage of RSA soldiers. This could bite them in the back later, depending on the final treaty, but we'll see. I know that the population of the region in with the Republic of Superior is in has become a hot-issue, which also directly impacts its troop numbers. I still do not agree with the number set by Mitro, having done personnal research myself. A region of around 50 million people would not default to 1 million, even after a nuclear war. That number I believe would be around 2 - 2.5 million. Compared to my original estimation of 7 - 8 million..............enough said. Troop sizes would remain the size that I said of them the second time.

Energy is another issue that I really forgot, and should update into the article. The Great Lakes regions does produce some oil........but not anywhere near enough. As a result, the Republic was through government intervention forced to go green, relying on combinations of Bio-Diesal, Solar Power, Hydro-Power, Wind, and possibly Geothermal. They likely also have made advances, it having been a major government issue, allowing for a push into possibly the nineties, though I have my doubts. Personally, those trucks are run on largely run on Bio-Diesal fuel, with Gasoline vehicles having been phased out over time.

After looking into the issue more, the supply route would not be completed, or at least the land-based one. The St. Lawrence River could easily make up for the lack of a road, at least until the winter kicks in. Use of the Saint Lawrence Seaway could alos be made, where the road should reach by this point. The only major problem would be the amount of time possibly required to repair the locks after years of disuse. In that case, effort might be made, but in the end result in failure just because of enviromental destruction of vital elements. If Saguenay were to convince the gangs to allow the RSA's passage, then this would make for relatively easy movement at leas until the Canadian Winter sets in. At that point, they could possibly use flamethrowers to burn paths through the ice or improvise, but I think they would just try to move as much as possible during the first few months.

And yes, I realized that the treaty was harsh, and it was meant to be so. I hoped to strike up a conversation on the issue. :)

Sorry if I write long, but I want to make sure that all the bases are covered. Lahbas 22:24, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Using the St Lawrence would have to take a little research too. With cities along the St Lawrence being hit, you have to take into account collapsed bridges and their effect on the river. Its possible the river was deep enough that it doesn't make a difference, but it might. I needed to check this when doing Victoria, because the Fraser river is quite shallow, so collapsed bridges made river travel nigh impossible until it was cleared. Also cities along the lakes and river being hit would vaporize some of the water, and depending on the climate change and such, might have lowered the water level.--Oerwinde 23:57, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I just realized that we might have a problem in regard to Canada and its allies. The current status of the policy of the Canada First Party is isolationism in international affairs, and self-sufficeincy. Might this mean a withdrawal from the ADC and the LON? I am not sure, but I thought it could be a valid issue to bring up. Will Canada under the Canada Firsters accept international aid, or prefer to go it alon to keep with their platform? Lahbas 03:45, September 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think they would accept international aid, if grudgingly. After the war, they might try to withdraw from the LoN and the ADC. --DarthEinstein 12:05, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think their withdrawl from the international scene would be dependant on the results of the war. If they win due to international aid and Saguenay becomes part of Canada, then they would look stupid withdrawing and would likely not win the next election. If the ADC is useless and the LoN recognizes Saguenay, that would be cause for withdrawl.--Oerwinde 18:41, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

How about we leave at Sangueny being recognized by the international community? --HAD 12:44, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

this is getting out of hand. how about we leave it at sangueny being recognized, but the Gaspe penisular returning to canada. the Celtic Alliance are starting to deploy. if i were Sangueny, i would do what Japan did in the 1905 war with russia.: seek mediation by the international community. --HAD 15:19, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would agree -- having the international community come in and broker peace would be a good idea. Louisiannan 17:04, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

A protracted war would end in disaster for Sangueny and superiort alike. Blitzgried tatics work if you destroy a cou ntries military or the country itself. Sangueny has only occupied Gaspe and even if superior deploys, they will be outclassed and out numbered by ADC Forces. Is Saab still in buisness? THE EUROPEAN WOULD HAVE TOP quality kit if they are. gentlemen, let us end this with a fair ands just peace. --HAD 10:09, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance
Wow, this one is really kicking off. There are just a couple of things I'd like to add at this stage from the Alliance perspective. Though fully backing its obligations under membership of ADC the is still aware that North America is 5000 miles away; both the tactical and practical issues  of supporting a military campaign will be lengthy and costly given the reduced capcity of the Alliance.


 * Imperialism: Given the history of the former Irish Republic and its opposition to colonial power, war of independence from the British and its neutrality during DD I am some what taken a back that it would be construied as an imperialist act to assit Canada. The majority of the peoples of the Alliance have direct connection to Canada through economic and social movement and therefore family ties with North Americans on all sides. We must also be mindful that the Scots (those who are left) represent a people who were forceably removed from their own country from 1650's - 1900's and sent to Canada as cheap labour by the British State (called the Clearences) and an act of aggression against their allies/family ties would certainly irk the troblesome Scots. Politically, the Alliance government would be under a lot of internal pressure.


 * If the Alliance must act: It would I consider be a slow progress and false war (1939-1941 WWII) to start. Direct military involvment would not happen over night and would be strategically targeted to ensure a early end to the conflict.


 * Outcome: From the Alliance perspective it would be better if all sides agreed terms of ceasefire that would allow the League of Nations to act as arbiter in the demarcation of new boundaries. Otherwise I would agree that a stalemate would exist and that the Alliance say in 2010 -2011 would fully engage on the eastern flank of the Maritimes pushing in from Nova Scotia..? Mjdoch 10:37 September 30 2009 (GMT)

Hopefully this conclusion will be acceptable for everyone
Okay, there are lots of opinions and lots of possibilities. I though, as progenitor of this idea, that I should try to resolve them into one master plan that will (hopefully) be acceptable for everyone.
 * Point 1: After the initial Republican Guard forces that came to aid Saguenay, more Superior armies start arriving about early October, mainly by the St. Lawrence.
 * Point 2: Saguenay's forces are not concentrated in Gaspe; some are in Saguenay proper. Canada also stages raids against Saguenay proper territory. Some are successful, others less so, but the result is that more troops from Gaspe are brought back to Saguenay, and when the Canadians destroy Saguenay's secret naval base, getting troops to Gaspe suddenly becomes a lot harder.
 * Point 3: Saguenay forces also attack north Quebecl; though this is largely just pillaging, and not actually conquering.
 * Point 4: After the election on the 6th, the Canada First Party wins. They introduce military reforms such as mass conscription and convert many factories to military ends.
 * Point 5: Aroostook (which many seem to have forgot about) decides to eventually enter the war on the Canadian side. Their forces aren't that large, but Canada decides to take all the help she can get.
 * Point 6: For their major offensive, the Canadian army decides to wait for Spring. The reason? Their conscripts will be more trained, and ADC reinforcements will probably have arrived by then.
 * The Showdown: Canada begins its invasion in the spring. All winter, Superior reinforcements haven't been able to use the St. Lawrence, so supplies and whatnot are not in abundance. However they are still a match for Canada. When Canada begins its invasion, they are ready. Canada pushes forward to the city of Gaspe, the major city of the region. When they finally get there, they face a battle like Stalingrad; they fight for every building, every street, etc etc. They finally get the enemy forces out of Gaspe (the city), but there are still lots of forces on the peninsula.

However, an armistice is called by the Saguenay. They meet with the Canadians and ask the international community for mediation. ADC nations, obviously not wanting to send more troops, urge Canada to accept mediation. The major parties of the war (Saguenay, Superior, Canada, some ADC nations) meet with LoN representatives. They sign the treaty of Bermuda (they don't have to meet in Bermuda, I just picked somewhere not involved and close by).

This treaty states that Saguenay is recognised by the LoN and may apply for membership, same with Superior. Gaspe is returned to Canada, and Canada must allow LoN agents to investigate the Canada First Party to find out whether they are responsible for the assassination. A group of LoN peacekeepers will be stationed at the border, as well as in Gaspe. Saguenay is granted a corridor of territory in order to have official sea access (sort of like Poland after WWI). Canada drops claims on the coastal regions of Lakes Huron and Superior. Canada is allowed to expand along the St. Lawrence, and Saguenay must stop supplying the Lawrence Raiders. Thus, an uneasy peace comes over the North American region. --DarthEinstein 13:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm supportive of most of the ideas. Mitro 13:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

And I support ALL of them. --Yankovic270 13:57, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I still feel like your optimism for Superior's forces is too high, and your cynicism of Canadian forces too low. But like Mitro, I'm supportive of MOST of the ideas. Louisiannan 14:33, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Supportive of the principle but worried that we are over optimistic not only about Superior's forces but everyones, including the Celtic Alliance. Given the need for full engagement in food production across the northern hemisphere are we ahead of ourselves in relation to military affairs? Though military conscription is compulsory in the Alliance much of the work undertaken relates to food production, social care, and medicine.Mjdoch 15:49 September 30, 2009 (GMT)


 * I am fine with every part except where Canada gets to expand into the St. Lawrence region, and Aroostook joining the war on the side of Canada. Saguenay would not accept the idea of being surrounded on three-sides by what has become its arch-enemy, and woul argue that its ethnic ties to the region make it rightfully theirs. Aroostook............they just don't seem to really have a real reason to go to war. Unless there was a direct attack against them, or something similar to the reason the United States entered the war in WWI, they probably would prefer to be neutral, and send aid to Canada, or like previously suggested, allow volunteers to fight on both sides similar to the Spanish Civil War.


 * On another note, the minute Superior hears that the ADC is going to deploy, they are going to get as many men (and supplies) up to Gaspe and Saguenay as possible. I forget the numbers that I had listed previously, but at most they would double, possibly an increase in 50%. Supplies can also still reach the troops, it is just not in bulk, or efficent. The methods are similar to how the Germans managed to send supplies during the Winters in Russia throughout WWII. Though it is archaic, it will make sure that there is no extreme shortage, but rather a level that would request moderation. Lahbas 14:59, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Lahbas that Aroostook would not join the war, though they would be more supportive of Canada in the long run and any volunteers Saguenay and Superior get would be a few diehard French-Canadians. I agree that Saguenay would hate to have the St. Lawrence under Canadian control but it seems to be one of those situations they can do little about.  Canada outnumbers them in population by at least 4 to 1, plus Superior could only keep it forces there for a limited time and I doubt the Superior people would support keeping a significant amount of their military there just so another nation can get the land.  Furthermore the LoN is going to be a lot more sympathetic to a nation that existed pre-Doomsday and a nation that is on their high council.  A compromise might be having the area come under LoN jurisdiction with the former combatants working together to clear out the Lawrence Raiders and then putting a LoN sponsored state in the region (similar to the MSP or RZA).
 * I, however, still disagree with you about the size of Superior's population and the forces they can commit to the region. Superior is starting to look similar to some of the early versions of New Britain (no offense Bob), but in this case I'm going to defer to Darth's judgment at least on the case of Superior troop levels.  As I have said before there is just way too many people involved in this idea and since this was originally Darth's idea I think we should all let him have the final word on what goes into the war, unless someone can prove by using a reliable external source that he is wrong.  Mitro 15:30, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, so my conclusion seems to generally accepted, save on the Aroostook issue and the part about Canada expanding into the St. Lawrence. About Aroostook, I was basing its involvment off a recent WCRB news headline (see the main page, saying that Aroostook was angry at Saguenay for their support of the Lawrence Raiders. I don't mind so much about the issue, though, so if others think it should stay neutral I'm fine.


 * About the St. Lawrence, Saguenay and Superior really have no basis to expand there. The successor of the Quebec government is the Gaspe government, which is part of Canada, and Canada was the main player in opposing the Lawrence Raiders (Aroostook helped too).


 * And since no one objected about this point, I take it that the negotiations happening in Bermuda is fine with everyone? And one final thing: We need a Canada First Party leader. I was going to use Rick Hillier, but apparently he's in south Germany at Doomsday so someone else is needed. If we can't find anyone else, then I suppose we can say he returned to Canada (he would have had some incentive, as he is a native Newfoundlander), but someone actually in eastern Canada at Doomsday would be preferable. --DarthEinstein 17:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * But Again, Canada would then surround Saguenay on three sides, which for them I would think would be unexceptable. Possibly make it a demilitarized zone? That or an independent state in its own right, under the administration of the LON, similar to Kosovo before 2007. I don't really to be honest known who that issue would be resolved. Any possible solution seems to me like the Daytona Accords in regards to the Balkans. Lahbas 17:16, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Canada already surrounds Saguenay on 3 sides according to the map on the Canada page. While its tentative control rather than the solid control of the maritimes, they still control the area, and with the peace agreement basically establishing the status quo, Canada wouldn't cede part of their territory. They may renounce claims to areas they don't control, but they wouldn't cede anything.--Oerwinde 18:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Where is Marcpasquin for all this? Isn't he from OTL Saguenay? I would like to get his perspective on all this. Mitro 17:26, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Global Map, Canada is almost ready to envelope Saguenay, having already made it half-way around, while much of its established territory is still lawless. I think that it would be in the best interests of those involved if Quebec were givern autonomy from the Canadian government, though not independence, and be jointly administrated by Canada and the LON. This would, in a way, assuage Saguenay from having to deal with pure Canadian forces around its nation. At the same time, Canada would really not be able to complain, because it is simply allowing LON administration of a state that technically "exists", but remains largely ungovernable. The Lawrence Raiders would begin to be cleared out by forces from Superior (most of whom are returning home), the Celtic Alliance, Canada, and Aroostook. Saguenay would be blocked by Canada in any regard, though it would likely end its aid to them.

Can we end this war, please? its getting a bit multinational in sclace, with the ADC deploying. i agree with Darth's ideas for ending this. --HAD 09:59, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Black op
An interesting idea that I had earlier however, is based off of plans I was reading about WWII. Is it possible for the Republican Guard to hop into St. John, capture the leadership of the Canada First Party, and bring them to trial in Saguenay? That, or they are used as a barganing chip in negotiations. Lahbas 20:21, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * That I think is too action movie-ish to be plausible. Yeah I have heard of plans like that before, but I can't think of any time in history that such a plan was successful.  Just too many variables to consider, too many things that can go wrong (I mean come on the Canadian military and security can't be that useless or the RG that good).  And who are the leaders of the CFP?  The Prime Minister, the movers and shakers in Parliment, the head of the party organization, or the financers?  And what evidence does Saguenay and Superior really have that the CFP were behind the assasination, the assasin was just a member of the party.  If a registered Republican killed President Obama today, would that really mean the Republican party was behind the assasination?  With little probable cause if Superior was successful the LoN would explode in outrage and Saguenay would suffer the brunt of it while Superior suffers minimal damage.  Any trial meanwhile would be a farce due to the lack of evidence (plus any "confessions" would assume to be forced).  Let investigations and trials happen after the war.  Mitro 22:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not that fake. This is plan for the British that would have lead to the assasination of Hitler:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Foxley

Such a plan could have succeeded, but the British were fearful of making Hitler a martyr to the Nazi cause, and that anyone who would take his place would run the war better than he.

Thinking on the topic more, I think you are right in regards to my initial proposal. There would be no point kidnapping members of the Canada First Party, since no major connection can be drawn. However, there is the possibility of the Republican Guard being tasked to "remove" high ranking officers in the Canadian Army and Navy, for strategic purposes. Though it may be looked down upon, it could be considered "justified" given that it is war, just like shooting down Yamato's plan was "justified" for the Americans during the Pacific Conflict. Lahbas 01:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said the WWII plan was fake, I said your plan was implausibe and I also said I couldn't think of OTL plans that were ever successful. Also while "all is fair in love and war" intenionally killing high ranking officers won't give Superior any friends in the world.  If Superior really wants to be accepted to the LoN as you suggested before, if such a plan was ever discovered it be a major black eye for them.  Mitro 01:52, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be more interesting if the Canada First Party actually was behind the assassination of Tremblay. Maybe it was orchestrated like the Reichstag Fire to provoke Sanguenay and catapult the CFP to power. There are bound to be people in the CFP ruthless enough to carry this plan out. If the hypothetical commando raid happens it could fail in its main objective, but succeed in finding this information. I think pretty much everyone who jears about it would be outraged. If they found out that the war was started with fraud, the Canadian's allies might turn on them. Just an idea, of course. --Yankovic270 03:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure on whether to support that idea or not. For one, I agree it would be interesting for such a development. Throwing the Canada First Party out of politics and turning them into a pariah would definitely help the images of Saguenay and Superior, and not necessarily hurt that of Canada (since it was done outside of the government). At the same time, it would allow for Canada to remain on the world stage, since it is likely that the CFP will withdraw Canada into isolationism following the conclusion of the conflict.


 * But then there are the opinions of others that I must consider, and I doubt this idea would pass. A commando operation would not be searching through files the same time it is meant to capture five high level politicians. As a compromise, might we have a spy network in St. John that uncovers some dirty connections between the assasin and the CFP? If you guys say no, then fine. Lahbas 03:21, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

That is a big YES on my part. As a left-winger I despise parties founded (at least partially) by the military. That reminds me too much of how the Nazi Party got started up. And this new information may be just the thing to spice up the war. I want the CFP just as dead as the Mexico Primero Party. We could have the leader of the CFP (lets give him the nickname of The General until we figure out who he is) commit suicide before he is captured. --Yankovic270 03:38, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Bias should not be part of the decision making, you should know. Lahbas 03:41, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

The "rabid anti-Canadian" part was a joke. Sorry if it was misunderstood. --Yankovic270 03:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * When did the CFP become founded by the military? Also may I remind you that it was Saguenay that attacked first and Superior that joined the war on their side despite not being attacked or threatened by Canada.  Yankovic, for someone who claims to be "left-wing" you sure picked on odd side to root for.  Mitro 13:13, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * He's referring to Rick Hiller, who Darth Einstein suggested be the creator of the Canada First Party. Anyway, the idea would have to be accepted by Darth Einstein for their to be any foundation, so I wait for his comments on the matter. Lahbas 17:00, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah IC, damn this page is getting too long. Still Darth also found out he would be in Germany in Doomsday which means he can't be the founder, we need a new guy.  Mitro 17:15, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

What about Charles H. Belzile? The Commanding Officer of the Canadian Land Forces Command, the official name for the Canadian Army. --Yankovic270 18:28, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I actually like that choice. He could have survived Doomsday while at St. Hubert in Quebec, though that is questionable. His possible return time to Canada is also very much in line with the establishment of the Canada First Party in 1991. Lahbas 19:55, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Thank You. That means a lot to me. And Belzile, as the previous supreme commander of the army, would have quite a few supporters in the army. Give these people weapons and Voila! Instant enforcers. And in keeping with my theme of comparing the CFP to the Nazis, what would the Swatstika-analog logo be? I allready know what the derogatory term for a CFP member would be. "Firster" or something along those lines. --Yankovic270 20:50, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I did not find out that Hillier was in Germany, that would be Oerwinde. And I did not suggest that he be the creator, though he could be, but I suggested that he be the current leader.


 * About Belzile, I kind of did not want two French Canadian PMs in a row, but if he's the best we got, then I suppose we should go with him. Looking at him, he is a bit old, 76, and with a likely lowering of life expectancy I'm not sure whether he would be alive or in any condition to lead a nation. I decided to look at some chiefs of the Canadian Defence staff. See this page for the whole list. I think Natynczyk and Murray are our most likely candidates. Check it out and tell me your ideas.


 * And let me be clear: the Canada First Party is not the Nazi party. They are not interning French Canadians in concentration camps, or stopping free speech, or laughing manically behind the scenes and plotting to take over the world. Under them, Canada would be more heavily governed, true, and they are right-wing, true, but... they are not Nazi.


 * About the capture of the "General", it seems unlikely. I can think of no major wars in which the leader of one country was actually kidnapped by the enemy. Obviously, there would be spying by both sides, though, but I would like to say this: the assassin of the Saguenay Prime Minister was not following orders of the party, though he was a member.


 * Seems Lahbas isnt the only one who writes a lot. :)--DarthEinstein 21:03, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Very well. I only wanted the CFP to incorperate Nazi-like traits, like the creation of a crisis to get into power, and the overtly militristic themes of the regime. But I also don't think the CFP would create a French Canadian holocaustmfor a simple reason. They did not have time for one. The Nazis needed years of indoctrinating the masses with propaganda. Time is a luxury thusly denied by the pre-existing War. And what would be a worse way to weaken French Canadian ties to the government than to try to round up and kill them. And it would provide the Sanguenayans with ANOTHER justification for the war. --Yankovic270 21:24, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait!!! What would happen is intelligence learned where the Canadian Counter-Attack was going to be lead? That would be another possible twist. Something along the lines of D-Day, without the diversion of German forces to Calais. (Historically, the Allies succeeded in making Hitler believe the invasion was going to be at Calais using dummy fleets. Despite the protests of his generals, the experianced units were moved there. Even as the invasion was ongoing, Hitler refused to allow them to move, believing that D-Day was a diversion for the real invasion at Calais) Lahbas 21:27, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * What if... the Canadians leaked false intelligence of a plan to invade Saguenay proper instead of Gaspesie, leaving less forces there for a strike? That would be like a D-Day with the diversion of German forces to Calais. --DarthEinstein 22:43, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Good idea, but I still think my idea has a shot. Drop all refrences to Nazism, but it wasen't confirmed nor denied that the CFP leadership wasen't involved in the assassination. That was left ambiguous. --Yankovic270 21:32, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * True, it was left ambiguous, intentionally. If Saguenay knew absolutely for sure that the CFP was not involved, then they might not attack, for fear of further isolating themselves from the international community. However, behind the scenes (on the talk pages) I did say that they were not involved. But how about a compromise. How about, there is a certain group of members that are responsible, though not including the leadership. Perhaps this group could even try to overthrow the government of Canada, or do terrorist attacks on Saguenay. The Republican Guard could capture some members of this group, put them to trial in Saguenay courts, and have them executed (is there capital punishment in Saguenay?). --DarthEinstein 22:43, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * That would open a whole can of worms you know? You would have investigations going into the Canada First Party, regardless if they are guilty or not. Lahbas 23:02, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

And what would happen if the coup by the more guilty CFP members suceeded? --Yankovic270 23:34, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I doubt they would succeed, as they do not control the majority of the party. That is evident, because they are not the party leaders. But of course they would not try if they did not have a chance of success. This would probably happen sometime in the winter months, as the radicals would not want to do this while Canada's forces are campaigning, because they want to win the war too. If the government wins, then they would get an increased legitimacy because they can say that they have now eliminated those who actually did carry out the assassination. --DarthEinstein 00:13, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Creator
Before (too late!) this idea gets carried very, very far, I want to ask whether anyone has contacted Marc Pasquin about it. He created Saguenay, and on a very basic level it is "his"; at least, I'd assume his permission would be necessary to add a major war to the canon. This is especially true with Saguenay as the main aggressor in the war; for all we know, the Saguenayan government as he envisioned it would never involve themselves in such an undertaking. Now, a ton of writing on the war already exists, and IMO is quite good. Marc's reasonable and would probably not want to waste all that work. But it's common courtesy to get his permission before messing up his end of the sandbox so thoroughly. Benkarnell 01:51, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I left a message on Marc's page about the war, but haven't heard any opinions from him as of yet. Mitro 14:02, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * All right then, we'll just keep this page a proposal until it gets his approval. I have no objections. --DarthEinstein 16:08, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll try to find him using other channels. Honestly, I think the whole thing is extremely cool, but it would be a shame if it did not fit with what he had in mind for Saugenay.  Benkarnell 21:35, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

ANZC, SAC response
How are the major powers of the world responding to the war? My first thought is that both would be naturally sympathetic to Canada, for reasons already explained. Canada is a founding member of the LoN, and even though the LoN is dominated by Australia-NZ and South America, Canada has weilded enough clout to prevent recognition of Saugenay despite its being a healthy, functioning country. Furthermore, great powers are normally suspicious of any events that rock the boat. Finally, the leaders in both southern continents have been almost desperate in recent years to find common ground; stability in North America is definitely something they agree on. On the other hand, while the leaders in South America would generally support Canada, the rank and file, and populist politicians like Chavez, are likely to see it as just another (relatively) rich Anglo nation. Neither ANZ nor SAC are likely to provide any support more concrete than words and maybe small teams of diplomats. But if the war drags on, both may be persuaded to send material help to Canada. I agree with Dan that Saugenay's best bet is to get the LoN involved as soon as possible and take what it can while it's ahead! Benkarnell 05:52, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

[Edit] I'll add that the Nordic Union shouldn't be underestimated. It's definitely more focused on internal matters than external, certainly, but it's also one of the larger and wealthier power blocs of the world at this point. If it feels that ADF security is being threatened, it could really make things difficult for Saugenay. Eventually. (It would definitely take a while.) Benkarnell 06:01, October 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the most likely outcome of this war is LoN inspired peace. However, there has been implications that a rift is growing between the ANZC and SAC and I think the fact that they have done nothing as of yet (which OTL is because we haven't written anything yet) should be seen as a sign that the rift is starting to become a problem.  In the "Aftermath" section of this article we should mention that the fact that the LoN took so long to intervene was because the two power blocs were unable to work in concert.  Mitro 14:05, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. If you look up and see my conclusion that I wrote, calling for international mediation is exactly what Saguenay will do. However, where the large power blocs are concerned, remember that Canada isn't First World here. I'm not actually sure how interested nations outside of the ADC would be about it. --DarthEinstein 16:12, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's not at all surprising that the SAC and ANZ aren't involved. Canada's not an ally of either one, after all, and it's awfully far away from either one of them.  Is Canada closer to either power in any meaningful way?  The SAC has the advantage of proximity, while the ANZC has a shared culture & language.  If it were established that Canada was a close ally of the South American bloc, for example, It might be possible that the ANZ would be tempted to support Saugenay to increase its power in the region.  But that would really be a whole lot of expense for very little gain.  A more likely scenario would be that each great power would wait it out until one side was definitely winning, and then race to support the winner and thus increase its own influence in the region at the expense of the other.  Barring that, they seem much more likely to be sympathetic to the side that was the non-aggressor, and which will promote greater stability (and thus more reliable future trade): Canada.  Benkarnell 21:43, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Election
Since no one responded to my suggestions about the leader of the Canada First Party, I have decided to use Walter Natynczyk, current OTL Chief of the Defence Staff for Canada. --DarthEinstein 21:36, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Vermont
I just read the Vermont page, and I've decided that it would make a better place for the peace talks after the war than Bermuda as I said earlier. --DarthEinstein 14:45, October 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you use Vermont for the peace talks, it might be worth exploring the diplomatic angle, and how Vermont, as the Switzerland of the region, relates to each of the parties, and whether it merely gives them a place to settle their dispute or plays an active role in resolving it.--BrianD 03:59, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you're the author of that article, what do you think? --DarthEinstein 18:18, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Vermont holds its neutrality, and what it sees as its obligation to help negotiate peace, in the highest importance. It wants to have good relations with all countries, so it can be in a position to talk with any nation about sticky issues and be heard. This does not mean it approves of whatever those countries may do but believes that being on good terms with those countries and keeping lines of communication open will work best when it comes to hashing out difficult and complex situations, like the Saguenay war. Vermont's relations with Saguenay are complicated, given the nation's history with warlords and groups believed to be the Lawrence Raiders or associated with them. But Vermont thinks its interests, and the entire region's interests, are better served by it acting as a neutral party, not picking a side but helping everyone negotiate a peace that they can live with, and that will benefit all of the survivor states in the region. Does that make sense?--BrianD 21:58, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, not every state can be on one side or the other. How about when Saguenay proposes international mediation, several governments, including Vermont, volunteer cities to be used for meeting, negotiating and signing the treaty. Because of its proximity to the nations involved and its neutrality, Vermont is picked and they sign the treaty of ...er, Manchester. --DarthEinstein 23:29, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Vermont would agree to that, and I would go along with it. Might Vermont also be asked to help send peacekeepers into the Gaspe region, or have any such involvement (politely) declined by the LoN as Vermont is not (yet) a member?--BrianD 03:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, does it have troops to spare? If so, then perhaps it would. Also, perhaps it would be allowed in to the LoN because of its efforts in mediating the conflict. --DarthEinstein 04:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it would be able to spare some military troops for peacekeeping purposes, especially since warlords and the Lawrence raiders are no longer a threat.--BrianD 05:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

has the war ended?--HAD 15:43, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, its theres just nothing noteworthy happening at this time. I think it sposed to be ending in the spring.--Oerwinde 16:48, November 3, 2009 (UTC)