Talk:Piedmont Republic (1983: Doomsday)

Toccoa, Anderson
Wow. Great job! The one question I have is regarding painting the black extremists as black Muslims. In my limited knowledge of the 1980s and the south, Islam wasn't really on the radar in the region. Though it's canon here that racial tensions would have exploded in the south, I'm unsure that Islam would have become the face of black extremism. Perhaps the extremists were influenced by their perceptions of groups like the Nation of Islam, that would have been known nationally during the '60s and '70s?--BrianD 03:39, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I knew of the Nation of Islam, but I was not sure if I wanted to bring them in specifically. This group of black Muslims seems to be quite influenced by the NOI, maybe even a "cell group" of the only Black nationalist group in existence in the 1980's. I created the group with NOI in mind, having not thought of their geographic distribution at the time. If it's alright, let's go with this fictional splinter group. I named the related motorcycle gang Allah's Messengers, but I think a more authoritative name ought to be used for this group that is leading over 20,000 citizens in Anderson County. This catastrophe would have been a great opportunity for the Nation of Islam to take over wherever they could. If not the NOI, then a clone.

--SouthWriter 04:48, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wrote the KKK into Athens, then wrote them out. I didn't want to risk attention, plus I figured using generic racists was enough to get my point across. I would change the name of the biker gang, though. I could be wrong, but I am of the understanding that Muslims are very careful about how they refer to their deity, and would not sign off on anything like 'Allah's messengers'. For all we know they might be a biker gang, but some division of the Anderson "military" (for lack of a better term). --BrianD 05:11, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * God point about Allah, but if they are a splinter, or independent clone, of the Nation of Islam, then it is the NOI that Muslims have a problem with, for they are about as radical as you can get. If they were truly Muslim's they might use a name that incorporates Allah with a Arabic word meaning Messenger or something else. My mind is fuzzy as to what to call the bikers, feel free to edit it if you can think of something or just call them a "black motorcycle gang" and leave it at that. Later. --SouthWriter 06:25, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

speaking as a history student and history nut, i think it would have been generic blacks gangs of racists/criminals/unpleasent people, rather then black muslims who would have been the trouble makers. in fact, it probably would have been in areas like whatever is left of the northern cities where NOI would have caused problems.--HAD 20:19, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I decided to go with a fictional false prophet, born in the area, who converts to Islam and gets a cult following in the years leading up to Doomsday. The problem with using generic black gangs is that they could not sustain allegiance long enough -- or be large enough -- to cause the havoc that happens in Anderson. This threat had to be in place before Doomsday to materialize and take over a town the size of Anderson (even after the destruction of half the state below them). You are right about the NOI, the force to deal with in the south was largely liberal protestant African American ministers like Jesse Jackson and Ralph Abernathy. I think Jackson may have been in Chicago on September 25, 1983. --SouthWriter 21:43, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * After studying the NOI, I found an excellent candidate for the false prophet in a break away group that wished to be identified more with the original founder of NOI and less with "traditional" Islam. The man's name is Royall Jenkins. He founded the United Nation of Islam, which in OTL is headquartered in Kansas City. Not only is Jenkins from Greenville originally, his whereabouts in 1983 (after splitting from NOI but before publicly incorporating UNOI) were unknown. He claimed that for over a decade following the split -- 1978 to 1991 -- he was receiving instruction from "angels" in a space craft that showed him the universe AND revealed to him that he was indeed Allah in human form. His success in Kansas City after over a decade there seems to indicate that he can build a following.SouthWriter 19:40, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

What about articles for Anderson and Toccoa?
Having engaged the armies in Anderson and Toccoa, giving short synopses of the takeover of the Christian schools in the towns, I suppose it would be good to create some short articles about them as well. However, it would be better, since they are now canonized, to create them as an extension of this article.

For that to happen, we need to get the Republic of Piedmont up as a recognized article. Do I have to present a snapshot of the present day for this to come about? I haven't seen much in the way of objections since I proposed the article, and now I have tied it in to two city-states that have been recognized already. If so, I will work on it tomorrow (later today) as it just reached midnight where I am.--SouthWriter 05:04, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll raise the issue again on the main talk page. I've never canonized an article before so I want to make sure I go about this right :) --BrianD 05:11, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * And, if you would like to write Anderson and Toccoa, feel free. As the writer of the 2009 WCRB article on the south, I'd like to add this additional bit of information: the WCRB scouts who came across Anderson and Toccoa didn't meet anyone but saw enough to figure out what was going on. When they got to Asheville, the locals filled them in on what they had just left. Asheville I am sure knew of Piedmont (and vice versa), and both have had good relations for years. But Piedmont didn't get mentioned to the LoN until it made a return trip to Asheville. Also, I suspect that the Anderson and Toccoa leaders know of "outsiders", if not where they specifically are from. This might mean that spies are present in the Republic. Rather than being emboldened to attack, Anderson and Toccoa might be scared as heck, thinking the rest of the world is about to finish them off. Leading to who knows what kind of mayhem.--BrianD 05:16, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the update. I have got to get to bed for my "beauty sleep," but I admit that the rogue states would certainly be wise to get some spies behind enemy lines. They have to either pose as refugees, or either sneak in around through Laurens county (assuming the white supremacists can elude the Black Muslims (or whatever we call them). I think posing as refugees would probably be easier. The sooner the rogues give up slavery, of course, the sooner they will be left alone. Or accepted if they can handle that. Until later, then. --SouthWriter 05:31, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Conservative or Evangelical?
In discussing the proposal, one objection was to the "Evangelical" control of the Republic. The perception that conservative Christians cannot rule without "bringing religion into it" is a common mistake. Conservative Christians believe strongly in traditional values -- the so-called Judeo-Christian world view. This foundation has shaped the west ever since the days of John Calvin and the Puritans. Even the Church of England -- which oppressed the Puritans -- was steeped in this world view.

I have listed "Robert R. Jones, IV" as the present governor of the Republic, leading some to assume that he is the heir to the power behind the University and now the Republic. However, Bob Jones, IV, chose a different route in our time line, and he would have if he had been stuck in Greenville upon graduation from BJU. In 1983, he would have been around twelve years old. He actually went away to another school (due to a disciplinary problem!) when he was in high school. And then, after returning and graduating, he became interested in journalism and a career in writing. That is the direction he goes in this ATL as well. I tend to write an article based on this after the main page gets approved as "canon."

Anyway, as a journalist, he begins to work for the local daily paper -- the new Piedmont-News (a merger of the Greenville News and the Greenville Piedmont before the G.P. went under). He would rise to editor, and then become active in politics as a conservative voice. He would have been elected in 2006, and be up for re-election in 2010.

Stay tuned --SouthWriter 05:22, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * With respect to my friends here who have differing views, I'm going to argue for the Piedmont Republic to be as steeped in Christian fundamentalism/evangelicalism as it is. It fits the culture of the time in the south and of South Carolina, and is reflective IMO of a culture that developed without 27 years of influence by U.S. pop culture, education and media. If there's any conflict at all, other than with the racial supremacist groups nearby, it probably would be between the group of fundamentalist Christians represented by Bob Jones and other Christians, including the Presbyterians, southern Baptists, etc. Not to pick on Bob Jones or anyone else, but the various denominations and church groups within American Protestantism can have some quite significant differences between them.--BrianD 05:42, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Archived conversation from main talk page
Found at http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:1983:_Doomsday/Former_Proposals_8#Piedmont_Republic --BrianD 21:24, January 12, 2010 (UTC) ==

First contact
'''when did the piedmont republic make 1st contact? HAD 20:13, January 14, 2010 (UTC)'''


 * And, with whom - Asheville, East Tennessee (Morristown), or perhaps the Outer Banks or Virginia? (btw, I am assuming that the LoN knows of its existence, though the scouts missed them the first time after their experience in Anderson and Toccoa)BrianD 20:25, January 14, 2010 (UT)


 * That is a good question. I haven't worked much passed the war -- in fact, I am trying to side the boundaries of Anderson now. I don't think that Zahur could maintain control over the whole county. I am thinking he "claimed" the county, but had to settle for the city plus the suburbs over to Lake Hartwell and the former state line. He names the new state "the Islamic Republic of Anderson."


 * As far as who and when Piedmont makes contact with friendly neighbors, I can imagine it was before 1990 and probably with Ashville (Blue Ridge). I'll work on it as the next major section of the history.SouthWriter 21:39, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't see a problem with Piedmont meeting survivors from North Carolina and Asheville in the 1990s. BrianD 20:29, January 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just put up the re-election of Bill Workman as governor, after successfully achieving a brokered peace with Anderson. In 1990, there was still a preoccupation with the people to the south and the west, so exploration to the north may have been by individuals rather than any organized efforts. There would not have been any efforts to prevent anyone from trying to contact folks who might be living just over the next hill. The most likely thing keeping people isolated is a matter of being close to people they knew. Some of those near North Carolina probably headed for Asheville anyway, assuming it was safer in the mountains. They would have been right!


 * I can see where it might be a little while later, maybe even after the next election, before any organized connection with the north will be made. Workman would have concentrated on finding any South Carolina survivors down the Savannah and Pacolet Rivers during his second term. That will be my next installation. Perhaps I will have some unofficial explorers heading north out of curiosity. I have a friend that runs a rafting company in North Carolina while living in Greenville. It's guys like that who would seek out the unknown.SouthWriter 05:31, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

That was my thought as well, not just specifically for the Carolinas but the world in general: most exploration early on is done by individuals, looking to see what is out there. They would often be the first to discover other communities and connect their respective nation-states. Also, while you're trying to survive, you don't have the time or means to go traveling and see if other people are around the bend or if you're the only humans in existence for the next 3,000 miles.BrianD 05:50, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Religious Freedom
I understand piedmont is a conservative and christian stae, but you are still allowed freedom of religion, right? your still allowed to be a Hindu or an atheist, for example? is there predudice against non christians? --HAD 09:49, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the state (or republic) of Piedmont is a democratic republic, with it's constitution based on those of the USA and the state of South Carolina. Both those political entities had full freedom of religion. Just because conservatives are running the republic (I see nothing in the Doomsday scenario to change this), does not mean that there would be less freedom of religion. Anyone is allowed any religion or to practice no religion at all. For practical reasons, still widely held, it still is required that the governor at least acknowledge a supreme being. He and his government, though, cannot discriminate against those that do not hold that conviction.
 * If you have been keeping up with the story so far, you see that a conservative court in the republic has held that the neighboring Islamic Republic of Anderson, though ruled by a muslim cleric, is to be accepted as a legitimate state. It is doubtful, though, if any muslims would be welcome in the government of the Republic of Piedmont under the present tension. But the law would not preclude an attempt at a muslim to enter the political system there. In the private realm, there will always be prejudice against religions not ones own. But in housing and employment, for instance, it is illegal to discriminate on these grounds.SouthWriter 17:07, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

i was going to mention a supreme court case where acknowledgement of a supreme being a requesite to political office was struck down as unconstitutional, but the supreme court no longer exsists, does it. and apart from the PUS, neither does the old USA. HAD 17:47, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

That actually fits in with the scenario: the same reasoning that leads the Piedmont Supreme Court to rule that the Islamic Republic of Anderson is a legitimate state also would lead it to rule that the Piedmont Constitution, not the U.S. Constitution, is the law of its land. Therefore, if the Piedmont Constitution has a mandatory 'believe in a supreme being to hold office' clause, it trumps any decision previously handed down by a U.S. court.BrianD 20:21, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Brian. Yes, the new constitution, to maintain the will of the people, did "overthrow" some of the more libertarian Supreme Court interpretations of such laws that had been on the books in SC in the past. Such laws, when they were first made, had not seen any opposition - or at least not enough to reach the courts of the land. When the courts became more liberal, then a vocal minority was able to bring the laws up in court. It is still quite unlikely that any avowed atheist would be elected to the office of head of the state of South Carolina (and probably not any other state in the US) in OTL.SouthWriter 22:19, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

mores the pity! not that i don't agree with you.HAD 20:11, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Blue Ridge
Southwriter, from what i've heard, North Carolina and South Carolina were very different states before doomsday. is unificaction truely realistic?--HAD 11:10, February 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * HAD, I don't know about the Carolinas TTL. In this instance, it was a new (to us, anyway) editor who wrote up unification between Blue Ridge and Piedmont. That's happened to me before, when Owen put an item on the Newshour page about Portland accepting aid from Virginia (Yank was pushing for it, but I wasn't certain at the time where I wanted the scenario to go). It's annoying to say the least when someone makes a change like that instead of first raising the issue on the talk page(s) in question. As far as Blue Ridge and Piedmont, the two countries are not enemies and should be allies, but the idea of a political union seems more to come completely out of nowhere than as something that the two countries are naturally building towards. BrianD 14:14, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've changed it back, but the thought has definitely crossed my mind. I was going to introduce a "Carolina Republic" when I first joined this wiki, but Blue Ridge was put up before I could do it. The size and power of Virgina and Kentucky is rather intimidating, and I have been thinking about a union of not just the Carolinas but including East Tennessee. The three are bound by the backbone of the mountains and together would form a good size union. I am thinking something like the "Alliance of Appalachian States." Personally I think it would have been done a lot earlier, but I can certainly go with a LoN brokered union.SouthWriter 15:07, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

I think that's a very possible scenario, South. I also would say that the size of Kentucky may be intimidating, but the country seems to be portrayed by GOPZACK as a democracy, unlike Virginia, which Yank has portrayed as a militaristic nation looking to aggressively expand by however means it can (and has recently professed to implementing reforms aimed at restoring democracy). Such a union might want to make an alliance w/Kentucky, and more cautiously make an alliance with VIrginia. BrianD 19:55, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ideas for history of region since Doomsday
I've gone back and retroactively mentioned Piedmont in the 2009 WCRB South article. I want to hear your ideas regarding the history of the region assuming Piedmont being an active participant in affairs as opposed to being isolationistic. I'm going to clean up the history articles for Blue Ridge and East Tennessee with this in mind as well. I still want the Knoxville government overthrown by the 'rebels', with a subsequent 2-3-year-war by the resistance (with help from Asheville and presumably Piedmont) to restore order. If the nations are aware of each other, they would have signed some sort of trade agreement or set up an alliance of sorts by the early 1990s (which would mean your proposals on such an alliance would have come true 20 some years ago in this timeline). That brings to mind if they would have more aggressively explored Tennessee, Georgia, and the rest of North Carolina and Virginia; they might have even known of Jackson, and Portland, and vice versa. Outer Banks may have to be written around (the author seems to have been someone who wrote his scenario and has not been seen since). Anyway, that's my initial proposal. I'd like to hear your take. BrianD 23:14, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Uh....I just noticed your idea for an alliance of Appalachian States above. Sorry: one month in Wiki time is like a year in real time - it's hard sometimes to remember conversations you had that long ago. Or it is for me :) BrianD 23:17, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Today I was beginning to work on some of the logistics of Toccoa, seeing as it remains a thorn in Piedmont's side (having recently bombed a river patrol!). However, with exploration to the south -- in hopes of reclaiming South Carolina as much as possible -- I am sure those in the northern parts had already made private expeditions into North Carolina and Tennessee by 1989. Georgia, on the other hand, is left only to the bravest, since that area is patrolled by Toccoan forces. That the government in Greenville had left that to others probably mean that contact with those populations has been made, but with little interactivity due to the peacekeeping forces in Anderson county (soon to be Williamston County). Much of the black population had begun to migrate to Anderson in the 90's, though the devoutly Christian blacks are finding the state religion there to be oppressive to other belief systems. That made things difficult on the southwest border into the new millennium.

I figure that the early nineties -- the next section of the history, will be a time of alliances, as you say. Meanwhile, I am going to work up something to explain the hidden folk of the midlands -- the lost state of Florence, or something like that -- which was reduced to scattered survivors by the hurricane of 1989. When the WCRB found Georgetown and Florence, they found only a remnant that had probably been a flourishing population of survivors. SouthWriter 01:31, March 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, then, contact from Piedmont with the Tennessee and Asheville government would have been made first by civilian explorers in the late 1980s. Once the Tennessee situation was settled and the government reestablished in Morristown, then ambassadors would have been exchanged, followed by meetings between the respective heads of state and the signing of a trade agreement by, say, 1994? With this revision in mind, how do you see Piedmont's relations with the Blue Ridge and East Tennessee states as having developed? Would either nation help Piedmont in sending peacekeepers into the Toccoa region to keep that bunch in check? BrianD 13:16, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the "hill people" of northeast Georgia and southwest North Carolina (Blue Ridge) would have considered themselves neighbors much closer than any governments of the adjacent states could hope to be. These folk tend to be independent minded anyway. Therefore, it would be a good idea for Blue Ridge and Piedmont to work together to connect to these people as friends there for support. Being that the southernmost end of the Blue Ridge mountains is in northeast Georgia, I can see it as being an extension of the Republic of Blue Ridge.

As far as East Tennessee is concerned, it is not adjacent to Piedmont nor to the mountains of northeast Georgia. Their influence would be with the survivors between Signal Mountain, TN, and Atlanta, GA. The refugees from Atlanta and Chattanooga would have undoubtedly swelled the population of Calhoun, GA, and Gordon County, the major population center in the area. Assuming a hardier and more tolerant population than Athens turned out to be, I can see a survivor community thriving there. Since all the action in East Tennessee seems to have been in the northern parts, peacetime explorations "south of the border" may have proven profitable. SouthWriter 17:04, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

367053241_992c4106fd.jpgMarion_Carnell.jpg Shoals SC
I am from this aera, ware shoals (I corrected the spelling on the page) if I can help in anyway with background on people and the surounding aera then le me know. I would be glad to help. Also I've got pics of the aera.Wingman1 06:24, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, Wingman. Good to see someone from South Carolina on board. Thanks for the offer to help. If you could find some history of the area -- mayors, councilmen, state legislatures, especially those around in September of 1983 -- it would be greatly appreciated. My scenario is mostly based on Greenville, Clemson, and Spartanburg because those are the areas I've lived among for the past 33 years. If you can get me some pictures (just insert them on this talk page), we can use them to illustrate a page about Ware Shoals and surrounding area. I have set the area up to be "ruled" by city blocks mostly at odds with each other, but survivors nonetheless. I'm thinking a decade of isolation has made them wary of outsiders. SouthWriter 17:27, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

here is a pic of the powerhouse before it was repainted.Wingman1 18:10, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

just upstream from there, and the powerhouse and damn have been in opreration sence the 1920's. i am thinking that protecting and mantaining these would be a pritority for the locals.Wingman1 18:41, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

i am working on the pic's of the people, mayors and such.

mayor at 1983: Manly Balentine, mayor of ware shoals (no pic).

state legislature (not sure when first elected) at 1983: Marion P. Carnell (pic included) Wingman1 18:41, March 18, 2010 (UTC)