Talk:Sultanate of Turkey (1983: Doomsday)

Initial Notes
Please give suggestions/comments.

And this is mostly for me, but I plan to include:

Expansion to Northern and Western Turkey  done 

Turkish Cyprus (reestablishing contact with the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus) ''' done? '''

War with Greece (sometime in the future over eastern Turkey and Turkish Straits)

Alliance with Sicily

War with Kurdistan (reconquest; Kurdistan's ally Assyria joins?)  Assyria is a de facto Kurdish protectorate 

War with Armenia (if they've expanded into eastern Turkey)

Expeditions into Syria (sort of a conquest)  done 

Caeruleus 22:21, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Updated Caeruleus 01:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Updated Caeruleus 16:02, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cyprus
First off, I'd like to say you did justice to the Federation (formerly a Confederation) of Greece and for that I appalude you. But I do have one minor issue. Cyprus is a bit of a problem-not because you have two warring factions on the island, but because of the Soviet missile attacks. We never really figured out how bad Cyprus was, but we decided that we should leave it alone, with not even Greece touching it. You might want to bring up the status of Cyprus in the talk page, the group might not even approve Southern Cyprus. But other than that, I have to say even I enjoyed reading the article, even though I should be studying for finals :D
 * And just OOC for a moment, I don't know if war with the Federation would be wise; they're a very connected state and the fastest regrowing in Southern Europe and probably the Mediterranean. It might be best for our nations instead to rebuild.

Mr.Xeight 21:39, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for commenting at the expense of your finals.

I just wrote the Cyprus portion, but I'll remove it and post it here for reference until the group approves it. I'll make sure to bring it up on the talk page.

I am trying to position Turkey as a powerful and rapidly growing state. I just wrote the entry on their conquest of Syria. If you think its too unrealistic, please say so. I'm planning to have Turkey become somewhat expansionist due to the influence of nationalits, militarists, and Islamists. Eventually, after further expansion, they'll turn their attention to Greece, unless that is all deemed to unrealistic.

Caeruleus 21:50, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

More Notes
More notes to self, feel free to comment:

Prime Minister will be Ahmet Necdet Sezer

Turkish invade Georgia and Armenia to alleviate eastern provinces

Series of buffer states created in Caucusus (Azerbaijan, Abkhazia, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Adyghea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachai-Cherkessia, North Ossetia & South Ossetia, Krasnodar Krai)

Iran is an ally of Kurdistan. Will intervene during Turkish invasion

Turkey reaches out to Israel and Jordan as allies.

Forms Meditterrean Defense League (MDL) with Israel, Lebanon, and Jordan. Caucusus buffer states later admitted

Sicily joins MDL? Starts Meditterean cold war. MDL vs. Greece/Spain/Egypt/Alpine Confederation?

Caeruleus 01:11, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Turkish intervention in Second Sicily War on Sicilian side.

Caeruleus 01:30, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

French and Italian forces from the MNF in Lebanon headed to Turkey. Turned back by Soviet submarines. Says Cyprus wasn't attacked. From MNF

Caeruleus 20:05, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Operation Damascus
By 2003, all non-Kurdish provinces in Eastern Turkey were under the Sultanate's control. The nation was almost reunited at last. However, in the same year, the New Türkiye Party had come to power. They controlled the Prime Minstership and the Imperial Assembly. They were a high nationalistic and somewhat militarist party. They wished to expand far past Turkey's original borders and enlarge the Turkish nation. Despite the opposition of the Sultan and his allies in the Royalist and Republican People's Parties, the New Turks pushed ahead with their expansion plans.

The first of these expansions plans was Operation Damascus. Due to their association with the Soviet Union, Syria was a victim of the American nuclear strike. Their primary cities of Aleppo and Damascus were destroyed and with it most of the Syrian government. The country was plunged into chaos as people began to flee the fallout zones in search of safety. Many had fled north to Turkey, especially after the rise of the Sultanate. Taking a lesson from the Alpine Confederation, the New Turks decided to conquer and annex as much of Syria as possible and then lockdown their borders to prevent more refugees from flooding the nation. On December 7, 2003, the Turkish Imperial Army launched Operation Damascus, the invasion of Syria. The Turkish forces launched an offensive all along their border with Syria. Army Group A pushed south along the coast all the way to the Lebanese border. Army Group B pushed towards Aleppo and then on to Damascus. Army Group C pushed south and then east towards the Naht al Khabur, after which they moved south towards Damascus.

Once Army Group A reached Tartus and the Lebanese border, they began pushin further inland to solidify their gains and meet up wtih Army Group B. Army Group B had surrounded the nuclear crater that was Aleppo by the end of the first week of the operation. Afterwards, the Army Group split. One half marched towards Hamah, and ultimately Hims. The other half Ar Rusafah to link up with Army Group C. Army Group C reached the Euphrates within two weeks. Next, they marched along the south bank of the river all the way to Abu Kamal on what used to be the Syrian-Iraqi border. The north bank of the Euphrates east of the Naht al Khabur was Kurdish territory. They had orders to avoid a confrontation at all costs. Once all the army groups reached their intial objectives, Turkish High Command gave the order to continue the march towards Damascus. Once they reached Damascus, a quarentine zone was set up arond the destroyed city. Finally, they marched all the way to the Israeli border on the Golan Heights. By the end of the offensive, most of Syria was under Turkish control.

The operation itself was fairly unopposed. Much of the Syrian countryside had been wiped out by bandits or abandoned after the nuclear attacks. Several of the larger towns were in chaos. A few cities, such as Ath Thawrah, Hamah, and Hims, maintained a operating, if struggling, government. The Turkish commanders wanted to avoid conflict when possible, so the independent city-states were offered a self-governing protectorate status within the Sultanate of Turkey in exchange for paying a tax to the Turkish government and allowing Turkish military presence in the city, although it would be confined to certain bases. All the major city-states agreed to these conditions. A few of the smaller ones who had formed distasteful regimes were attacked and quickly conquered. The primary opposition to the Turkish advance were the remaining elements of the Syrian military, which had organized into gangs of bandits who controlled several smaller towns and large swaths of the countryside. However, being deprived of resupply for years, the powerful Turkish Imperial Army was able to easily defeat them, though it did slow their progress.

This offensive demonstrated the might of the Turkish miltary. Within ten weeks, the entire operation was complete. After another ten weeks, all violent resistant remaining in the provinces was dispatched efficiently. The newly gained territory was organized as a series of semi-automous governates. The more violent areas were placed under a provisional military governorship. The independent city states became self-governing protectorates. New governments were formed in the lawless areas and elections were held in six months. None of the newly acquired Syrian territory was admitted as official provinces however. The Turks weren't yet ready to take the step to becoming a multinational nation again. The new territories were given observer representation in the Imperial Assembly and a new body, the Peripheral Council, was formed as a subsidary body of the Imperial Council which represented the territories. While no other nations condemned the assault, because the Turkish government rightfully justified it as a border clearing and stablization action, it worried regional powers, especially the Confederation of Greece and the Republic of Kurdistan.

As another result of Operation Damascus, Lebanon allied with Turkey. Lebanon had grown to be a wealthy state due to having the best ports in the eastern Meditterrean. In addition, they had a powerful navy. Together, Turkey and Lebanon were a potentially powerful alliance.

(Open to alteration depending on the evolution of additions about post-Doomsday Syria)

Strength and Size
I seriously doubt it could manage being either that strong a nation or big a nation after losing its largest two cities like this.

It should likely be cut down to the starting area on your maps and the majority of the first area of expansion. I know this would destroy your history, but it looks like you're forgetting the impact of the strikes, both in and around Turkey, and the refugee crisis that would result.

For this, I'm reminded of the situation put forth for the region in a book I've read, The Last Centurion by John Ringo, in which the local communities of the area, after a global plague disaster, end up banding together in small units after the disintergration of the government. They then turned into raiders and bandits, blocking the roads and keeping out people.

The Turkish people are much less united and open then you seem to think. While it is a legitimate successor government, it would likely have to fight for a large portion of the territory in Turkey - let alone elsewhere as you have done in these wars, for which the logic of them starting - short of empire-building - makes little sense.

Kudos for the choice and place of government, mind ;)

Lordganon 11:32, June 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I didn't even think about the refugees much. So that will definitely have to be edited in. As for the government, it took six months to form and at that point it only controlled Konya province. It took another six years to reach the size they were at according to the first map. It took another 10 years to reach the second map. After that, it only took 3 years to pacify the eastern provinces. I'm not Turkish nor I have I read much about the unity of the Turkish people, but do you not think nearly 20 years would be enough to reunite them? Especially with the military quickly taking charge where it could and many survivor communities joining peacefully.


 * That being said, the Great Caucasian War and the Syrian parts may be a little far out there. Caeruleus 16:00, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the refugees would likely end up destroying everything in maybe a 50 mile radius around the blast zone at Ankara. Then the fallout would go northeast, roughly, leaving refugees fleeing from that.

Six years to reach the first map size would be accurate, I suspect, as long as its six years after the establishment of the new government.

However, due to a combination of the chaos and geography, the northern provinces shown on the second map would be unlikely to reclaimed just yet - not only would access be through the mountains, with the area Ankara is in largely unusable passage would be even harder. The fallout from Istanbul would also fall over the western portion of that area. Taking off a row two provinces deep or so along the coast of the Black Sea may be a good idea. The area highlighted on this map - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkey_black_sea.jpg - plus the area in the bulge on it, is what i mean.

The Aegean Coast is fine - there is lowlands along the coast, eventually passing through Thracian territory, which would make that area accessible, but not the Black Sea Coast due to the Greeks. Another reason to hate them ;)

The tall mountain range in the Northeast of Turkey would prevent expansion in that direction, especially in so short a time span. Much of the Turkish military was located there at the time, both for anti-Kurdish operations and defense against the Soviets, which would mean for well-armed and fortified opponents there. It would also be radiated, which would mean parts would be impassable, meaning that a war in the area would be immensely difficult and expansion would be hard as well.

Look at this map, may help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkey_topo.jpg

As for the wars, the Caucasian War is far, far, far too much. However, The Syrian War would make sense so long as the context is changed a little, and the current concern with clarification is remedied. Call it a combination of defeating bandits, etc. in the border area with Syria that harass Turkish territory and gaining security for the city of Antakya, the main city in the little bit there that extends downward. Maybe a little bit of empire-building too.

Lordganon 17:44, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I didn't think about the topography or the heavy military presence in eastern Turkey. So, based off what you said, Turkey would look like this in 2000:

And this in 2005.

Is that about right?

And a major theme to this new Turkish government is their desire to expand, mainly for nationalistic and security reasons. The Syrian and Caucasian Wars are a result of that. Caeruleus 19:07, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Its a good theme for expansion, but a motive like mentioned may be a good idea, make it seem less aggressive.

I'd use the map you have marked as 2000 as being the present map, honestly.

Maybe take half the territory you have marked as 2000 and that'd be 2000, with the whole thing being the present day. It's just too much damaged territory to digest, even with a loyal population, in that time span.

This Turkey would have the priority of expanding itself to the south side of the mountains and blocking the passes to prevent bandits from attacking, and along the more flat and moist coastal regions.

Lordganon 23:57, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Strikes
I think there would be more than just the two strikes. Diyarbakır and Eskişehir house major air bases, Izmir is the southern naval headquarters as well as housing a major army base. Gölcük naval base would likely have been hit as well. Izmir at least would definitely be hit.Oerwinde 08:16, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm basing the number of nuclear strikes off the map on Maps (1986: Doomsday). It shows only two strikes, so that's what I'm going with. Having only two strikes is easier to work with anyway. Caeruleus 18:36, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The map is inaccurate, and has been argued every time it is used as justification. Izmir is not only a major population center, it is also a major air, navy and army base. It will be nuked. Being a NATO member, a major military power, and being right next door, the Soviets wouldn't let Turkey off with only two nukes while Spain, France, and Canada get annihilated.Oerwinde 09:42, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Turkey got lucky then. They were able to intercept several missiles and others were duds. The result was only two nuclear strikes on Turkey. Caeruleus 06:22, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good luck getting gradutated then.Oerwinde 08:19, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Great Caucasian War
(REMOVED Because its unrealistic. Kept for later reference)

In 2008, shortly after the Mingrelian War, Turkey discovered the presence of an independent Azerbaijan. Building upon long running ethnic and religious connections, Turkey made an effort to reach out to the country. In May 2008, an alliance between the two countries was concluded. With this alliance, Turkey planned to gain access to Azerbaijan's vast oil reserves, however, Armenia and Georgia both refused to allow the construction of pipelines through their territory that would be guarded by Turkish soldiers. As a result, the Turkish Imperial Council began to lay out war plans against both Armenia and Georgia with the intent to subjugate both nations for both the purpose of securing their new oil pipeline and to end the occasionally skirmishes in the more lawless areas of the border.

On Feburary 8, 2009, the Turkish military launched a two-prong assault into Georgia and Armenia with the intent to drive towards the Azerbaijani border. Azerbaijan also used this oppurtunity to move against Armenia to reconquer the territories it lost in the Nagorno-Karabakh War. The vastly more powerful and larger Turkish military had reached the nuclear remains of Yerevan in Armenia and the small town of Samtredia, only 20 miles from the Georgian capital Kutasi, in two weeks. In the process, Turkey quickly overran the independent republic of Adjara, which was of no consequence to the expansionist Turkish government Recent Georgian reforms of their military was slowing them down in the north, but Armenia began to crumble under the two front war between Turkey and Azerbaijan. By June 2009, Turkish forces had surrounded Lake Sevan and reached the Azerbaijani border, thereby cutting Armenia in half. The northern portions of the country were quickly overrun by Turkish forces, but guerilla forces in the south slowed down the Turkish-Azerbaijani advance significantly.

In June 2009, Georgia's ally Abkazia joined the war to assst Georgia. Together, their troops were able to prevent the Turks from capturing Kutasi. However, with northern Armenia taken by Turkey, a massive Turkish-Azerbaijani assault was launched into southern Georgia. Rustavi and most of southeast Georgia was conquered. Finally in August 2009, a final offensive was launched with the objective of crushing the last of Georgia's resistance. By this time, the ruins of T'bilisi had been captured and they had slowly been pushing north. However, Kutasi still held out. A week after the final offensive was launched Kutasi had fallen and the last pocket of Georgian resistance was pushed to the Abkazian border. After this, Abkazia surrendered and Georgia, controlling no more territory, also surrendered. The Great Caucasian was finally ended in December 2009.

As per the terms of the peace treaty, Turkey annexed the western half of Georgia and Azerbaijan the eastern portion. For Armenia, Turkey annexed everything north and west of Lake Sevan and Azerbaijan annexed the rest. All the territory annexed by Turkey was organized into multiple semi-autonomous provinces within the Sultanate. They managed their own internal affairs while submitting to Turkish military and diplomatic control. A guerilla war started in Nagorno-Karabakh, but ended after six months of quarantine and starvation. Once all combat ceased, the contruction of the pipeline began immediately. It stretched from Prisaat, Azerbaijan to Erzurum, Turkey. With only three thousand casualties, the Turkish leadership was now confident in the power of their military. Now fueled by a new source of oil, the Turkish government ordered an immediate rearmament and prepared for the next war. They set their sights south to reclaim Kurdistan. Caeruleus 18:39, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for eliminating the Caucasus War!VENEZUELA 02:56, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

And outright annexation is simply out of the question. I have learned in my time as a contributor to 1983: Doomsday that in order to get your aticles graduated you need to conform to the timeline's canon. Otherwise it gets rejected as obsolete and is removed from the timeline. And I doubt you want that.

Yankovic270 02:59, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think I've removed all the more outlandish portions of my article. Graduation should be coming soon.

Not until you stop pretending you can hold onto Cyprus, accept that more than two cities in Turkey would be bombed, and shrink down your land-claim... Mr.Xeight 03:22, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. You are ignoring most advice given, as well as restrictions held here.

Lordganon 3:32, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

I removed the wars and extended the time span (all of Turkey wasn't reunited until 2009). As for the bombings, what else would be bombed? I'll try to adjust accordingly. And why can't they take northern Cyprus? The southern half is still Greek. Idk if the Federation of Greece controls it or not. I don't really care who does. You even said they haven't touched it Mr Xeight. Pre-Doomsday northern Cyprus was under Turkish control anyway. It wasn't reunited with the rest of Turkey for nearly 10 years, when they were desperate and near starvation. There was no massive invasion either. Contact was established and the Turkish Cypriots petitioned for and received entry into the Sultanate. If any of that wasn't made clear in the article, I'll try to clarify it. Caeruleus 04:44, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Cyprus' Greek population massacred the British and Turkish populations, I've made that clear, besides it was okayed for me to take it over, I even made it known by talking about Cyprus being one of the stars of the flag, or at least it's speculated to be. And with the island being nearly 100%, they'd fight your sultanate until the whole population died or you ran away. So stop going for a Turkey-wank or face a war with Greece. Mr.Xeight 05:32, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again, the Turkish Cypriots have superior firepower. How can you slaughter someone who has more guns than you? You can't. Plus, they're main worry will be how to survive with the lack of imports, so they'll probably be lacking food and other supplies. Caeruleus 18:08, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Greeks outnumber the turks 7:1 thats how.Oerwinde 07:11, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * So...human wave tactics manage to overrun most of the northern half of the island after suffering over 50% casualties because of inferior weapons, lack of ammunition, and a total loss of any foreign support, which didn't particularly help them before Doomsday? Sorry, but I don't see that as a particularly likely scenario either. If the Confederation of Greece invaded some time in the 90s or early 2000s, they could have won. Otherwise, its doubtful at best. Caeruleus 04:12, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well being a member of the Confederation would put the Confederation's military at their disposal, who knows? Plus the turkish soldiers will have lost all contact with command on the mainland with Ankara and Izmir gone, and Iraq and Afghanistan have shown what a small force of ill equipped people who believe in something can do to a larger more advanced force. And the turkish soldiers don't have any national guard reserves to send in to back them up. I'm not saying who would win, just that its not so one sided.Oerwinde 07:29, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Darn you and your counterexamples. So, let's clear something up. Is Greek Cyprus a member of the Confederation of Greece or not? And if it is, when did it join and did it contribute military forces to the Greek Cypriots struggle against the Turkish Cypriots? That pretty much decides how this goes. Btw, someone here should probably write a Cyrpus article after all this discussion. Caeruleus 04:39, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

And when you say the Royal Family of the Sultanate is the House of Osman, are you implying that the current monarch is the OTL pretender to the throne? If you expect him to be living and ruling in Turkey, then you should only be expecting his ashes; he's lived in New York City since 1941. Or do you mean that the Turks are ruling the country in his memory? Mr.Xeight 05:38, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * That was explained in the article. The House of Osman is the imperial dynasty that ruled the Ottoman Empire, the predecessor to the Republic of Turkey, until 1920 when they were dethroned. The family survived and moved to the United States. At the time of Doomsday, they were on vacation on a cruise in the eastern Meditterrean that landed in Turkey after Doomsday. People discovered his identity and chose him to become sultan.Caeruleus 18:08, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

'''I think there would be more than just the two strikes. Diyarbakır and Eskişehir house major air bases, Izmir is the southern naval headquarters as well as housing a major army base. Gölcük naval base would likely have been hit as well. Izmir at least would definitely be hit.Oerwinde 08:16, June 23, 2010 (UTC) '''

What do you mean what else would be bombed? I already have an ENTIRE TOPIC DEVOTED TO THAT. That you responded to no less. Izmir is gone, Diyarbakir and Eskisehir would likely be hit too, they house air commands. Golcuk would be hit, and likely Erzincan and Malatya which house army commands. Those are just the cities that house the command centers of various military branches. I haven't looked up major industrial centers, but Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara are probably the big ones and they're already hit. Adana is a major industrial center, but its mostly textile and food processing so I could let that one slide.Oerwinde 06:09, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

And of course I know the US held (or rather holds) nukes in Turkey, so you know that's going to be bombed. And as for a foodd-processing center, they might want to cripple the supply of edible foods the Capitalist-Turks have, so that may very well be up for nuking. Found it, they're housed at Incirlik Air Base. Wow, that's only ten kilometers from Adana, a major city in Southern Turkey. Southern Turkey may not be the best place to put your Sultanate then. Mr.Xeight 06:23, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fine. Adana gets nuked. Caeruleus 18:08, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Southern Turkey is still the best place to put it. Military targets in the south are pretty much all concentrated in the far east, and the rest are central or northern. So other than Incirlik, there aren't any other places I can think of off the top of my head in the area that makes up the sultanate at first that would be hit.Oerwinde 08:37, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll add some strikes in the east and north then. Caeruleus 18:08, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, here are some important cities on Turkey, which I think will probably be hit.
 * Imagen_1.png
 * Thank you for the map. That'll make this much easier. Caeruleus 02:17, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Imagen_1.png
 * Thank you for the map. That'll make this much easier. Caeruleus 02:17, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

That's the one thing I hate about this site (well not the only one), you people put your comments right undernearth previous comments you're commenting on instead of in a linear way right after the other-makes it impossible for us lazy people to see what's going on. After looking back at old stuff, this is what's happening with Cyprus...
 * They were nuked twice by the Soviets-the British were taken out quickly and loudly.
 * The native-Greeks and Turks fought instead of working together after a nuclear holocaust (I originally had them as friends, but Mr. Hicken dissuaded from that and showed me the two groups would instead fight to kill each other). The island is like 87% Greek and 12% Turkish; guess who won.
 * The various Greek city-states find Cyprus in the late 1990s and Cyprus is let into the union only because of ethnic reasons; it was in terrible condition, utterly terrible (two nukings and an ethnic-cleansing'll do that to you).
 * Their fate from then on in I never wrote because I focused on acquiring North Africa and the Morean Fascism.

So, Cyprus is a member and if Turkey happens to wander over there in the 2000s then they'll find a probably 100% Greek island and will be booted from any attacks and weakened any more. So thanks to me focusing on Cyprus early on (like December of 07 or 08), Cyprus is saved from any Turkish domination. And how do you even know that the Royal Family was on vacation? If you can't find specific examples that they were cruising around the Med, then the group (before all Hell broke loose) assumes they were at home and are currently very crispy critters. Besides, weren't Turkish youths brainwashed into Republicanism and all that? Very few nations in the modern era actually accept their monarch back after decades apart, in fact Spain's the only example that comes to mind. Mr.Xeight 06:10, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

 Mr.Xeight 06:24, July 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * If Greece is claiming Cyprus, then I'll drop that portion. As for the royal family, I made it up. They could have been on vacation. I don't know if they actually were, but it doesn't particularly matter anyway. Gotta be creative with these things. The only reason they accepted the monarchy though was because that was the only compromise the civilian, military, and religious leaders could come up with for a new goverment. And yes, they were sort of brainwashed by republicanism, but that was mainly the military. That was sort of explained in the article when Konya became the capital. Konya is the "citadel of Islam" and is very conservative and somewhat fundamentalist. Since it was the largest surviving city and became the capital, local political elites forced the military to accept a more conservative goverment, which materialized as the Sultanate. However, the military forced the local political elites to accept a largely secular state with constitutional monarchy. So you have elements of both philosophies present. Plus, the New Turkey Party gained power in the late 90s and they were a secular, pro-military party which strengthened the republican nature of the state. Caeruleus 15:19, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Macedonia
Hey I'm making a page for 1983:DD called the Kingdom of Macedonia, I was wondering if you were okay with me mentioning our countries making contact if thats okay with you. Ownerzmcown 1:33, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure. That's fine. Feel free to elaborate on the relationship. I'll read over it and ok it if you do. Caeruleus 02:12, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so here is the basic situation between our countries at the moment, their really close allies and soldier from your country helped my country win a civil war, check it out. Ownerzmcown 22:55, July 2, 2010 (UTC) 10:55, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wrote it into my article. Caeruleus 18:23, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Is it okay that I just say I've made contact with your trading partners too, or do I have to check with their writers first? Ownerzmcown 14:16, July 5, 2010 (UTC) 14:15, July 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * For trade, no. For alliances, yes. Caeruleus 18:17, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Annexation of Northern Cyprus
REMOVED - In conflict with canon

During the same period when Turkey came in contact with Thrace, a naval expedition was sent out to the island of Cyprus. The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus was a breakaway republic formed before Doomsday that controlled most of Northen Cyprus. To the south was the Republic of Cyprus, a Greece-controlled government. Before Doomsday, it was a major point of contention between the two nations. Turkish leaders wished to reestablish contact with the island because a fairly large Turkish military contingent was based there to support the breakaway nation.

When the expedition fleet arrived at the shores of Cyprus, it found, to its surpise, a relative stable, if undersupplied, nation. The Turkish military contingent on the island had seized control of Northern Cyprus. The British bases on the island had been destroyed by small nuclear attacks from a Soviet nuclear submarine in the eastern Meditterrean. Luckily, the yield of the nuclear strike was very small and the fallout cloud quickly blew past the island into the sea. Thanks to this stroke of luck, Northern Cyprus had been able to survive, although in a state of complete isolation. Once they landed on the island, the Turkish Cypriots immediately welcomed those from their mother country. An ambassador who accompanied the expedition presented the Turkish Cypriot leadership with an offer of annexation. They would be given full rights as a province of the Sultanate of Turkey. Knowing the desperation of their situation, Northern Cyprus quickly agreed to become part of the Sultanate. In early 1996, Northern Cyprus had become a Turkish province. The annexation was met by praise among all Turks. However, the Republic of Cyprus, which still controlled the Southern half of the island and was a member of the Confederation of Greece, was infuriated. The annexation served to quickly worsen tensions between the two states.

Thoughts on Article
Caeruleus:Per our recent discussion, I have had an opportunity to review your article on Turkey. Given the recent changes you made since I started this, I went back and took a second look and made some revisions. As such, my apologies for the delay. Having read through it, I have several thoughts. To begin with, I think you made a good start to build upon and your idea on revising the Sultanate is indeed interesting. Although the sultanate idea is not improbable, I would have imagined something more akin to a military junta or dictatorship. I say this given Turkey's military has a habit of stepping in an taking over such as they had done in 1980. I would also closely look at the religous angle. Turkey has prided itself on being a secular state, so I am not sure it would go over to being an Islamic State. This said, I have a number of concerns.

I believe your article is far to optimistic in comparison to what the reality would have been. Turkey was a vital member of NATO and the only member on the border with the USSR. It would have been subject to USSR short and long range weapons as well as bombers. Given all NATO nations such as Britain, France, Italy, and Spain were pummeled, it would stand to reason so would Turkey. Although it is reasonable to hypothesize Turkish/NATO forces would have fought back, I think many weapons would have gotten through. Given they were right on the border, their reaction time would have been far less than say England or the US, no matter how good the radar was. I could see some bombers and perhaps a few warheads being downed, however the nation would still have suffered catastrophic damage between the strikes (which would be multiple in some locations) along with the fallout from these hits and those outside its borders. Although only certain cities were listed originally listed on the strike list, that did not mean they were the only places to be hit. Sometime ago, Turkey was designated as a nation which ceased to exist, in part given the number of strikes it would receive. A few months ago, I started doing research for a short article on the country and what would have occurred. Based on my research, I concluded at least the following targets would have been hit: Istanbul and Ankara and the surrounding area

Incirlik Air Base - NATO - 5 miles from Adana (Note: NATO kept nuclear armed planes on ground)

Izmir Air Force Station (USAF): Located on Turkish western coast, Izmir

Akinci Air Base (Turkish AFB): Located northwest of Ankara

Balikesir Airport, located in city of Balikesir (Note: NATO kept nuclear armed planes on ground)

Bandirma Airport, military and civilian airport located in city of Bandirma

Cigli Turkish military AFB, near Izmir (NATO units based here)

Erhac Airport, also known as Malatya Erhac Airport (Turkish military/civilian) 21 miles Malatya

Erkilet Airport (Turkish military/civilian) 3.1 miles north of Kayseri

Eskisehir Airport (Turkish military): Eskisehir (Note: NATO kept nuclear armed planes on ground)

Pirinçlik Air Base (NATO): Near Diyarbakır (NATO Radar Base)

Konya Airport (Turkish military/civilian): Located near Konya, (used by NATO)

Etimesgut Air Base (Turkish AFB): Ankara

Gaziemir Air Training Command (Turkish AF): Izmir

Merzifon Airport (Turkish AFB): Merzifon

Bartin Naval Base (home to sub pens): 6.1 miles nw of Bartin

Foca Naval Base (home of Turkish Marines): 2.6 miles se of Foca

Golcuk Naval Base (main naval base for logistics): Golcuk

Cengiz Topel NAS (Turkish naval base): east of Izmit (turned over to NATO in 1981) In addition to these targets, the Soviets likely would have struck the ten largest cities as well, some of which are on my list. Attached is a map I created reflecting some of the strikes I have elaborated on.

When you factor in the massive damage from strikes, radioactive fallout, EMP damage, collapse of the infrastructure, outbreaks of disease, and the lack of water and food, I do not honestly see Turkey having the strength to be able to advance politically, economically, or militarily to the lengths you have depicted, even twenty-seven years out from Doomsday. The major focus of any survivor states will be on those elements immediately neccessary to survival, such as food. Industrialization might come over time, but in a limitted capacitiy, probabley by the mid 1990s. I don't logically seen heavy industry occuring, let alone car or electronci manufacturing. Shipbuilding would be relegated to small coastal ships or fishing boats. As for energy, even if the hydropower dams were not destroyed, their systems would have been burned out by EMPs and be useless. Wind might be used on a small scale, such as windmills, but wind turbines or solar would again not make sense. It is also important to note, that in 1983, the population stood at about 47.8 million of which about 44% lived in urban areas. The most densly populated areas of the country were located in those regions which would likely have been targeted. Given these factors, within six months of Doomsday, the population would more than likely have been less than half this number with many suvivors either ill or having fled south by land or boat. Does this mean your country can't exist, no. However, I think it makes more sense that Turkey would divide into several nations. In addition to Kurdistan, I would see a nation arising along the Gulf of Antalya (yours likely), and one in Hatay Province, which at one time was a seperate region. I would recommend creating additional states in the country rather than one.

I believe the likliest scenario for Turkey would be this: Turkey is hit in at least 30 locations. Major NATO and Turkish Air Force and Naval facilities are targeted with a number of the largest cities, including Istanbul and Ankara. The nation suffers a complete meltdown. There is no one government, just a lot of little areas vying for power. Many who are not dying from disease/raditation flee to surviving ports or adjacent nations to escape. The PKK seizes southeastern Turkey in a bloody war. The nation breaks down into several smaller nations. By sometime in 1984 elements of the military still around begin to take control of larger areas and establish a rump nation, likely under military rule. They utilize harsh measures to ensure survival of the people and focus on establishing order, moving it into lawless areas and ensuring the essentials for survival are available. (Given limitted resources any attempt to pacificy warlords and such would indeed last well into the 2000s.) Contact is slowly established with other nations, such as eastern Syria, Lebanon, and the GSU. Industrialization would begin slowly, sometime in the mid-1990s with the assistance of other nations. Its projection of power would be limitted to within the Anatolian Peninsula, no further. By the early 21st Centruy, some areas who are still independent, begin having discussions about reuniting into a new Turkish state.

As I said, I think you have a good start but you definitely need to do rewrites. I noted you have dropped some areas, such as Cyprus, which is good, given they were not realistic. I do ask that you not advance into Syria given I have future plans for my article as I earlier said. I sincerely hope my thoughts have been of help to you in this matter and I look forward to seeing your future revisions. Once this is done, I could see some kind of future interaction between your area and mine in the Middle East. If you have any questions or wish to talk further, let me know. I will try to respond in a timely manner if possible.--Fxgentleman 03:24, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. This is definitely something to think about. Thank you for figuring this all out. But, I do have a few concerns/questions. Do you think a unified Turkey by 2009 is too unrealistic? Also, how many independent nations are you thinking arose from Turkey, just two main ones with a few smaller juntas or something more like Warlord Era China? Caeruleus 03:51, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

The nation is still too large. It would be impossible to have taken control over all that territory again, even in all the time that has passed.

Also, so long as it is written that they possess nukes it will not be graduated.

Lordganon 20:35, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why is possessing nukes a problem? Caeruleus 01:09, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

It's just overkill - empire-building. While it sounds plausible, it really isnt - they'd have been launched.

There's no reason for it. All it is is just a way to arm yourself with nukes.

Lordganon 10:09, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

They probably wouldn't have launched every nuke and would still retain their nuclear artillery since that never had a chance to be reused. But, like you said, it is sort of overkill. I'll remove it. Caeruleus 14:03, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Graduation
For you random followers of this article, does anyone have any final, reasonable objects to this article's graduation? I'd like to see it graduated soon. Caeruleus 01:08, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

The nukes, and the size. It was not very plausible before all the strikes were added, and it definitely is not now.

Of course, I've said it so many times already that its obvious you won't listen. But it still stands - and that wont go away. Others have told you this too.

It is a good article. But the empire-building is too much. It wouldn't be possible to reach so far over the mountains in this period of time.

Lordganon 10:13, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

It's not really empire building since they haven't expanded past Turkish borders. Also, I'm working on further explaining how they expanded so quickly. But to sum it up for you, southern Turkey was taken in the early years entirely by the Sultanate. Northern Turkey was all but abandoned after the nuclear strikes in the area and the few survivors were plagued by famine and diesase. They were all too willing to join the Sultanate with minimal resistance. Southeast Turkey was controlled by the Republic of Hatay, which collapsed midway through their war with the Sultanate due to internal rebellion. I'm still writing the article about that. Northeast Turkey was devestated by Doomsday and Soviet invasions, so the area was divided between relatively weak warlord who were constantly at war with each other. Several allied with the Sultanate and together they were able to conquer the rest. Those who allied with the Sultanate joined it after the rest were conquered. I'll dive into more detail when I complete the associated Republic of Hatay and Eastern Turkish Wasteland articles.

So, it's a plausible divide and conquer scenario. As for the mountains, those only became a major problem in the eastern campaigns when the primary combatants were Sultanate-armed warlords who wouldn't have had to worry about pushing all the way through the mountains. Caeruleus 14:10, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting with the other two articles, but it would likely be better if they still existed independently - maybe have them fighting hatay atm, or conquering parts of the western wastelands. The expansions were believable - if barely - before the additional strikes were added, but with the increased destruction in the western part of the nation, it would be too engaged in rebuilding to really expand into the other areas this much.

Besides, I suspect that as it is right now this state would be far stronger than Greece, lol. And its already been established as being the strongest in this area, so....



Lordganon 06:41, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

My current plan for the Republic of Hatay is to have an internal rebellion in the middle of the war that destablizes their government, and, since it's an oligarchy, it was disasterous. After that, the Sultanate would take another two years to just basically clean up the remaining warlords in the area. I hope it will fit in well with the rest of it.

I haven't focused much on the rebuilding, so I'll have to work on those portions. Currently, I've just assumed that they quarentined all areas that were nuked and the largest problem eminating from the strikes was the massive loss of life, almost a third of the total Turkish population. How would you see their rebuilding going?

Well, in all honesty, the fact that Greece is a regional superpower is laughable at best, however, since it is part of canon I will respect that. I'm attempting to phrase it so that Turkey is a powerful state that threatens Greece, but is still weaker than it, especially navally. Turkey's main advantage over Greece is superior numbers. In the future, Turkey will surpass Greece, as it has OTL. But that won't occur for several years. I'm thinking like 2015 or so. Caeruleus 16:52, July 21, 2010 (UTC)