Board Thread:Timeline Discussions/@comment-7559950-20130911012534/@comment-3428312-20150118211749

Lordganon wrote: Not a "claim" when it is the truth, and your head is too far in the sand to see it.

What part of the amounts and items being irrelevant made no sense to you? Simple English. All not having more ready access to those items does is slow them down. This is long-proven fact. A USSR with a worse supply situation still overruns the Germans, just takes longer as they have to make, repair, and bring up their own supplies. For pete's sake, this is the same as all other Russian wars in that regard.

Wrong. German plan, and German pressure for it to happen. Historical fact. And it not happening had nothing to do with Mannerheim. Easy to figure out if you would bother - I even told you who, ffs. To be quite frank, I believe this is a situation where you refuse to accept when you're wrong and being very disrespectful to myself in the process.

If you're claiming that, for example, 90% of the Soviet's rail lines was Western in origin is irrelevant then you don't understand basic logistics. Not having access to the large amount of supplies Lend Lease provided means the Soviets aren't going to be doing any overruning. This is a fact. No 20th Century mechanized force is going to be able to make an advance without the supplies to even launch one, nevermind sustaining it. Your belief that the Soviets can simply just shrug off the loss of Lend Lease and then make their replacements is simply a fairy tale notion with no basis in reality. It's made even further ridiculous when you have the knowledge that more than a fourth of all factory machinery the Soviets used for their war production was Western in origin as well. Making the comparison to past Russian Wars just confirms to me that you don't truly grasp how modern supplying works, because there is no comparison between the Russians fighting the Mongols and the Wehrmacht for example in terms of the need for logistics.

As to who presented the plan, allow me to provide a link that explictly states that it was the Finns who presented the plan: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-EF-Decision/USA-EF-Decision-11.html

" Mannerheim presented a proposal to the OKW for a winter offensive to be directed against Belomorsk, the Soviet port on the White Sea at which the Murmansk Railroad branched southward toward Leningrad and southeastward via Obozerskaya toward Moscow. He thought that after Leningrad had fallen he would be able to spare eight or nine brigades for such an operation and that the German and Finnish advances toward Kandalaksha and Loukhi could be continued at the same time. 10  Hitler and the OKW took up Mannerheim's proposal immediately."

There, in bold, is exactly what I stated earlier. This is undeniable proof for what I have stated several times now, and confirmation that I am right on this point of contestation.