Talk:Aviva, Florida Española

I officially adopt this page Bobalugee1940 12:05, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

Errr.... Bob, this is impossible. The Spanish agreed to the Treaty in the first place because they didn't have the power to even try and fight the US government over Florida. The Napoleonic Wars and the massive failure of fighting in the rest of the Americas - much more valuable colonies, unlike the definite backwater that was Florida - drained them VERY badly. The only way that they could even try to do something like this is if you had them remove ALL of their forces from the rebellious colonies - which would never be done - and bring them to Florida. But even then, the Americans would be able to defeat them. Maybe not at sea, but definitely on land. Same thing there, and if they really tried, they'd lose everything else and probably parts of Spain itself as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Navy#Decline_of_an_Imperial_Navy for more.

Lordganon 13:54, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Well that sucks, but thanks for pointing that out I shall go back and extend the POV to them not being in the Napoleonic wars or something :-C Bobalugee1940 20:58, March 7, 2011 (UTC) PS i'll change the title thanx JGG for pointing that out as well

Bob, the Spanish, even without the Napoleonic Wars affecting them - which is, quite frankly, impossible, as their king was not only related to the French Kings - even a member of the same dynasty - but the slated goal of the revolutionaries very quickly became the removal of European monarchies, meaning Spain would get involved no matter what - its still impossible.

The Spanish armies in the Americas never actually shrank during the wars, Bob. The locals beat what was there, and the reinforcements that were sent too.

You got the first part of what I said, but not the second. The American military would easily defeat the Spanish forces that landed, and the only place the Spanish would stand a chance of coming out ahead would be at sea, but even that is not possible over more than a very short time.

And, that's besides that if the Spanish were to plan something like this - which is not possible without American knowledge, as you cannot hide that big an operation - there would be no treaty, or anything like it, at all. Nor would Spain, a power with large areas in revolt, a weak military, and no money, be able to even launch something like this. They would lose their colonies that were actually worth something in an attempt to retake a backwater. Florida at this time was worthless.

Heck, the treaty gave Spain in the neighborhood of 5 million dollars - a very large sum at the time - and trading privileges in the new American territory. Far more than it could ever have gotten them in income, especially for a territory that cost far more money to actually control than could possibly be worth it.

Lordganon 09:10, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing I can't just get Chuck Norris to beat down the Americans so I shall think of what I can do to fix this problem Bobalugee1940 23:08, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

The latest possible scenario I could see so that the loss of colonies didn't happen is the non-existence of the Bourbon Reforms in the late XVIII Century. Fed (talk) 23:16, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

Can you see if this scenario works Bobalugee1940 23:38, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

Absolute monarchs, especially ones with a loyal population not holding guns to their heads, do not give up what amounts to all their powers like that. No way it's possible. There were some elements in favor of such moves otl, but they were shot down at the time - very correctly, may I add - because it was thought that such activities would encourage the rebellious parts of these societies, which it did many times after being forced on these places.

You're also missing the point - the reason the Spanish did attack with the coalition was not so much their policies, though that did frighten them - it was what the revolutionaries did to the family of the King of Spain, related to the King of France, that did it.

Pensecola was just a tiny backwoods fort until long after the Americans took over.

Bob, Spain by the Napoleonic Wars had been in decline since the middle of Elizabeth I's reign, in the 1500s. Two hundred years. Their fleet and armies, while still large, were largely worthless, which nothing would fix. This is the whole entire problem with this timeline.

My last set of points till stand. You're done nothing at all to make them go away - quite frankly, you made it worse.

Spanish ships were simply not capable of doing either the New York or New Orleans escapades you have written. And thats besides that neither act would get the American government to give up the territory - these people had just survived three years being blockaded by the Brits with little ill effect. They can take it, and quite honestly, rattling sabers like that would bring British intervention on the Spanish anyways.

Florida itself in 1830 had a population of nearly 35,000 people - largely American settlers - (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida#Population ) and there wouldn't have been more than a quarter of that at annexation, and still mostly Americans. As I said, a backwater costing much more to control than profits arrived from it, and no PoD before 1700 could change that - yet, even changing that would render anything moot, because than none of the other history of the area could happen, either.

Lordganon 08:28, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Is there any way to get the Spanish to a point where this could have happend without involving chuck norris? Bobalugee1940 12:03, March 9, 2011 (UTC) PS @LG the Adams-Onis Treaty was signed in 1819 and just like the last two major changes in the ownership of Florida most of the old population left

Did I once say something that said it wasn't 1819? Nope. And, the population did actually stay, Bob - it was largely American settlers by 1819 living there.

Now, I've given it a bit of thought now that I've got some sleep. West Florida - from Louisiana to the Apalachicola River - was the part the Americans most wanted, and had a real claim to. By 1819, they'd already controlled it on several occasions, and had taken it over once again during negotiations. Stopping these negotiations would have little effect on things. Hate to say it, but not much would keep them out or make them not take over this area.

However, in addition to his destroying the native settlements in West Florida - Jackson's original goal - he also went into the area around what would later become Tallahassee, and burned more villages there. Now, at this time, there was three small garrisons of Spanish troops, at St. Augustine, Pensacola, and St. Marks, all in the north of Florida. The latter two were seized outright, being in West Florida and thus an area that they really wanted. Again, not too much that could be done here - Jackson held no love for the Spanish, and this was his.... style.

Now, in order to keep the Spanish in control of the area, this presents a problem. But, a couple simple changes should keep the east for Spain. Take like 400 soldiers out of.... Mexico, I suppose - and put them in Florida, at some point east of modern Tallahassee (and far enough away so that Jackson ignores it on his march to St. Marks.... call it no natives around this fort), and at the town of Cowford (eventually, Jacksonville). Put them in forts, and all should be well. The Cowford fort slows down issues with the border, and the other one - lets just say that Jackson ignores it for his main objectives west of St. Marks - should keep some measure of Spanish control in the area, which otl did not exist. Put this fort somewhere around the sites that the otl cities of Perry or Madison were built at, which should keep them safe from Jackson distance-wise, so long as there isn't many natives there.

Now, have the diplomats get involved. Since they have already secured West Florida, which they already claimed as theirs, and their is Spanish authority left in the north, the American diplomats severely lower their offers. Otl, it was around 5 million - the full price of debts held by American citizens to Spain - that was given to them for Florida, but with the best part of Florida already secure, and thus in their opinion not for negotiation in the sale, let's have them drop this to like 1 million. This is not good enough for the Spanish, who refuse to cede all of the territory for that low sum. Eventually, they agree to give up the West portion for that sum - this is us making it cleaner - and leave. Same treaty as otl, just slightly different terms and money involved.

In response the incursions, the Spanish crown forces settlers to Florida. Thus, population increase, and that should keep it out of American hands so long as they keep their heads down and try to keep the natives out.

Only outside effects should be a couple hundred less soldiers in Mexico during the revolution, which won't matter one way or the other, and a little more discontent in Spain itself.

Lordganon 14:27, March 9, 2011 (UTC)

Name of timeline
Would it be better to have it has ¡Aviva, Florida española! (plus or minus exclamation marks). Avivar, exists in Spanish and can be translated has arouse, stimulate or to urge. And I agree with Lordganon in being impossible. JorgeGG 18:53, March 7, 2011 (UTC).