Talk:1983: Doomsday

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A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
Archives: Page 1 Page 2 Page 3

Borders of Utah and Sierra Nevada
There is dispute between Louis and Fx over the borders of Utah (a canon article) and Sierra Nevada (a proposal). I believe the jist of the argument can be found here. Mediation has been requested, so please review both articles and the discussion between the two editors and help them come to a resolution. I would also ask that Louis and Fx please leave a short summary of their position here as well. Mitro 16:58, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

First I would like to thank Mitro for setting this up and to reiterate what I have said already in that I am open to discussion. I have tried to lay out my arguments on the SNU discussion page, which I would suggest should be read as well as those on the Cascadia discussion page, where part of this discussion took place, as reference. This said, if I understand Louisianan's point accurately, its that some part of northeastern NV joined with UT at some point for some reason sometime in the post-war world. The problem is though there is nothing written in either UT or its history regarding this. I should note that if you enlarge and study the map of UT, it shows the inclusion of a small part of the state. Since a map in not necessarily canon without something written to support it, I took this to mean it was theoretical. I carefully did my research before writing my article on NV to ground it in reality and especially paid close attention to articles about the surrounding area. Understandably, since I could find nothing if anything, I set my boundaries for the eastern SNU by using the old state borders. Since our discussions began, Louisianan has now informed me of several other NV cities/towns which are part of UT which were not even referenced in his map. I am baffled and confused by the situation. How can one violate something not written? The only changes I can discern which would be made to accept my borders would be for a change to the UT and Cascadia maps. Suffice it to say I feel I have put forth a number of logical points supporting my thoughts and rationale in how I have written my article. I have gotten the distinct impression there is less of a desire to logically discuss the matter with me and more of a "because I told you so, you should do it" approach. I apologize for getting so lengthy is trying to lay out my thoughts.--Fxgentleman 01:34, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Fx, I request that you may change the borders to the Californian part of the nation, because it is encompassing a large portion of my article Commonwealth of California Arstarpool 03:02, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hold your horses their Arstarpool. We first need to work out the Borders of Utah and Sierra Nevada. The we'll deal with the boarders of Nevada and California. --GOPZACK 15:34, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

New London Review
During the New Rome discusion thier was talk and general agreement about the New London part of the celtic alliance being unrealistic, If the comunity agrees i sugest that this paticular part of the celtic alliance be removed from cannonVegas adict 20:25, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I am all for communities popping up in some of the nuked cities, but it's been established that London was hit by 12 missiles. While I could believe a small community could take roots here, I do not see that more than 3 nations have claims to new cities popping up from the ashes of the old ones. Arstarpool 04:15, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

The reason i oppose New London is the same reason i oppose New Rome: bith cities would have been too heavily nuked. I expect resettlement by 2020, at the earliest for Rome and 2030 for London. Also, 12 missiles does not equal 12 impact events. 12 missiles could, due to MIRV technology mean 120 nuclear explosions, each of the 100KT yield. Thats alot. --HAD 14:36, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose there could be small communities on the outskirts of Greater London Verence71 14:57, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't you simply have a "New London" somewhere other than where old London was? BrianD 14:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Presumably the outskirts of West London would be where this 'New London' is designated. I was actually planning to write up an article on London and the fates of the scant survivors of Doomsday; would anyone like me to post up what I saw New London as being? I suppose, depending on the scale of the damage, various survivor communities could exist further in, but logically the further into the city you go the smaller the population, the greater the deformities, and the more they rely on cannibalism to survive. Any survivor states would have to exist on the more fertile outer perimeter, straddling the M25 (New London), or be heavily reliant on external supplies (Essex's communities in East London). I assumed that London was mostly hit by airbursts, but at Westminster (possibly the Docklands) there were groundbursts to scour out and ensure the destruction of the facilities there. The rest of the city would have been engulfed by a firestorm that would last for days, not dying down until perhaps a week after Doomsday, killing off nearly all the city's roughly 7 million inhabitants (as of 1983). The survivors would either have run for the country or have been forced to scrape a living in the ruins. Fegaxeyl 15:39, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Firstly, the M25 as such did not exist in 1983 ( although a majority of sections did...)

It might be better to consider London as the GLC area ( which as such would have existsed in 1983 ) - Of course the GLC itself had it's own Bunker

under County Hall but it's proximity to major strikes in Westminster may rule it out as an effective base of operations for the GLC post Doomesday,

In the run up to the events of this timeline, I also recall the GLC being rathe pro-CND and left-wing...

Elsewhere in the notes for the UK an estimated yield of 8 MT is given for all strikes... this I think may be an underestimate. but is presumably an in-timeline

figure given that accurate records might not exist...

In terms of London, likely targeting may have included : -

- Northwood and/or Bentley Priory ( This depends on whwn Strike Command Relocated...)

- White City (BBC) or Old Oak Common (Major Railway Yards)

- Battersea - (When did the power station close? and also a LOT of railway infrastructure...

- Westminster/Whitehall

- Lea Valley ( Water Storage) - Shepperton area ( Water Storage)

- Heathrow ( Major Airport)

Docklands even by 1983 was in decline, and as such the primary port facilites had already started to move Down river... However that might not have been factored into Soviet targeting...

Kent-

No Dartford Tunnel? - (Which means you have a major headache crossing the Thames, given the inaccessability of crossing points upstream of Dartford),

also possibly no Thames Barrier, which means parts of London are much more vunerbale to a major flood...

- Chatam Naval Dockyard was until the Mid 1980's I think still an active military facility, and may have dealt with subs at some point..

- Dover - Although there would at this date have been a bunker under Dover Castle, it's proximity to any strike on Dover docks would have rendered it useless.)

Bucks - I would call into the question the plausibility of Milton Keynes still being around give Beltchley and Wolverton being major rail centres. However, assuming Milton Keynes exists than I would perhaps consider that the concrete cows are in fact real cows in the Doomesday Timeline... Aylsebury Vale/ North Bucks are probably not affected by events in London but maybe depending on the size of waeopns used will be in respect of

what happened in respect of the Chilterns and South of the county.... High Wycombe is almost certainly affected badly, although this not due to a direct strike

but it's proximity to an RAF Bunker ( hit by a 'massive' ground strike).

None of the scenario notes so far make any mention of what happens to the Buncefield Oil Depot? ( Was this Targetted at all?)

Assuming the 'survival' of Buncefield, there is the possibility that in 2010, following a lack of mantinence for nearly 22 years, there is a minor explosion

close to the site that sets the entire complex ablaze, leading to the rediscovery of the Hundreds...

Prior to the rediscovery there may have been periodic reports of 'willo-the wisp' in certain fringes of Essex/Woodbridge...(Pipelines?)

The southern fringe of The Hundreds (OTL: South Bucks ) is presuambly lawless,

Does anyone here a rough idea what the targetting pattern for NW London was on Doomesday, because it affects how things develop?

If Little Chalfont and Chalnfot St Giles survive then it's possible thet athe Hundreds have at least 18 the century conditions,

(One key issue being a College Campus above one of the Chalfonts... ),

Greenham Common - presumably a major target.... 212.225.120.224 20:34, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Old London would have been obilterated, as would much of Greater London. A survivor state on the very outskirts of Greater London is plausible, i suppose.HAD 16:42, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

What does this mean for New Rome? I would not see it becoming obliterated, seeing that it was not as active in NATO as Britian and France were, but problaby hit by 3 to 6 100 KT Missiles. All post-Doomsday nuked cities have shown to have some sort of population, as the extreme survivalists near D.C., the communities around San Diego, and several others. I suppose though that New London would be smiliar to Mainland Portugal; extremely improvised.Arstarpool 21:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the capitals would be the targets of the higher yield weapons. If Vienna was targeted with a 1 MT bomb, I would think Rome would be targeted with something bigger than a few 100kt ones. Rome was a much higher priority than Vienna, with almost twice the population, so I would see probably 3 1MT strikes. Oerwinde 20:40, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose tiny communities on the outskirts of cities that were hit are possible. However, what about the fires that were caused by the strikes. Surely they would have destroyed a large part of whatever was left standing. And we must bear in mind conditions such avaliability of food, water and such and such. HAD 10:41, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Such a strike would probably not be three 1MT warheads, but 30 100KT warheads. Same overall yield, more damage.HAD 21:41, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * By that logic the USSR would be out of missiles pretty damn fast. They had plenty of warheads, not so many delivery systems. A single 1MT nuke wouldn't cover as much area as 10 100KT nukes, but when the city is burning, people are fleeing, and electronics are wiped out... does it really matter? K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. Why waste those extra 27 missiles when 3 can get the same jobs done? Oerwinde 08:18, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * What about MIRVs? A single missile can carry ten warheads.HAD 08:28, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hrmm, interesting, quick look at MIRVs, seems that smaller warheads produce less radiation, what I mean is 10 100kt nukes produce less radiation than a 1 MT one. So if a MIRV is used, the fallout would be less and th eresidual radiation would die down sooner. Meaning if parts of the city do survive, they can be resettled earlier than if a larger yield missile is used.Oerwinde 02:38, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

ADC membership
I have noticed that the CSTO is expanding alot faster then the ADC. Perhaps it is time for the ADC to expand more? I have the following nations in mind for full membership: 1)Luxembourg 2) North Germany 3) The Commonwealth of East Poland (worried about West Poland/PRP expansion) 4) Bermuda 5) Essex, Woodbridge, Southern England and East Britian I only ask because CSTO now streches from Central America to Asia, which seems a bit much.--HAD 11:03, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * But you have to remember that the CSTO isn't a strong organization. It's mostly Siberia's own personal club of allies. The ADC is much more cohesive in its approach, at least that's what I think. That being said, I think the author of Bermuda expressed his desire for it to enter the alliance. The English states are also fine in by book, but Poland is too far away for such a thing to really matter. It could have a token membership, though.--Vladivostok 11:38, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, besides unlike the ADC, CSTO did not expand. It was just recently formed. All current members are also funding members, while the ADC continued to expand (Rif, Corsica, Luxembourg as a partner). I do not think that any states in Continental Europe will join the ADC in the near future.--Grand Prince Paul II. 15:33, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can easily see Woodbridge applying for membership Verence71 17:43, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, with it's airstrip, it would be a valuable member of the ADC.HAD 18:08, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll probably put in an application after we've sorted out the trouble in West Suffolk Verence71 09:55, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any objections to North Germany joining? It's automobile plants could be put to good use. Arstarpool 18:16, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no objections. I believe it would in fact be a likely occurance, considering North Germany's proximaty to Norway/Denmark.HAD 18:31, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same here. --GOPZACK 18:40, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any objections to North Germany joining? It's automobile plants could be put to good use. Arstarpool 18:16, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no objections. I believe it would in fact be a likely occurance, considering North Germany's proximaty to Norway/Denmark.HAD 18:31, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same here. --GOPZACK 18:40, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Thunder Bay referendum
Thunjnder Bay was supposed to hold a referendujm on joining Canda, Superior or staying independent a few mountsh a go. what would be the result of this?--HAD 18:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously this has been forgotten, just like the war in Saguenay and the war in Europe, just one of many problems I guess. And I think no one can speculate on the outcome other than the author, although I think that the referendum would be directly connected to the outcome of the war--Vladivostok 19:48, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Become a protectorate of Canada Merge with Superior Stay Independent

Status of Cyprus
So, what is the status of Cyprus as of now? In my addition, the Sultanate of Turkey, I had Cyprus as surivivng Doomsday with minimal damage. The British bases on the island were nuked with low-yield weapons and the fallout went into the Meditterrean. Northern Cyprus remained under Turkish control thanks to the military contigent from the Republic of Turkey stationed there. Southern Cyprus remained under Greece control and eventually joined the Confederation of Greece. Later, the Sultanate of Turkey annexes the northern half of the island, hightening tensions with Greece.

From what I can tell, there's been nothing accepted into the canon so far about Cyprus, but can someone clarify its status? Is what I have so far okay?

Caeruleus 22:45, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I think it likely that with Turkey being nuked and out of commission for a while, the Republic of Cyprus would regain control of the whole island, and with no turkish settlement after 83, northern cyprus might remain majority greek, so when it joins the Confederation of Greece, it would be the whole island joining. So with Turkey annexing Northern Cyprus, this would be an act of war against the confederation of Greece.174.1.100.195 17:41, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

I re-read the situation in Cyprus, seems the Greek cypriots were displaced much earlier than I thought. Either way maybe the Republic of Cyprus took the initiative to unify Cyprus in the confusion, what with Greek cyprus having like 6x the population of Turkish Cyprus, and the partition not being legal. Apparently over 100 thousand greek cypriots were displaced by the invasion, maybe they decide to take their homes back. I'm thinking maybe the Greek controlled south retakes much of the Turkish controlled north, reducing North Cyprus from 38% of the island to more like 18%, displacing the Turkish population.Oerwinde 09:58, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

International Drug Trade
What would happen to the trade of illegal drugs after Doomsday? Better yet, what would happen to the lucky few of the drug dealers who managed to survive within or en route to the nuked cities with some of thier "merchandise"? Arstarpool 21:03, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

I had been thinking about this for a small community in Derbyshire, UK. It involves a crafty entrepeneur who, amongst other things, uses his monopoly on drugs such as cannabis to maintain his fortified business enclave. Of course for something like this to be plausible there would need to be a supply of the drugs nearby and the right growing conditions available (I'm no expert on the growth of illegal drugs), both of which would be removed within months of Doomsday as their areas are abandoned, pillaged, or otherwise. Drugs in pill form would probably be hoarded, but most likely exhausted within a few years of Doomsday (again I've little idea how these things work). Fegaxeyl 17:12, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm assuming that somewhere in the Doomsday world, there would be one cocoa plant and one cannabis plant. While I think illegal drugs for the most part would be gone, some local communities might have their own little "stashes". Arstarpool 19:27, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

F, your idea puts me mind of this episode of the original version of Survivors, at least the idea of a settlement manufacturing drug Verence71 20:32, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Sagenuy what do ya call it and st lawrence and all that
SO what was the end result of the recent war, in plain english. Also, what is up with St Lawrence? Does it still exsist? Has it been returned to Canada, or what?--HAD 21:36, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

End result of the war was status quo + Saguenay recognized. Needs to be revamped though due to the revelation that Ontario would have a lot more people, which would change Superior's status, as well as Canada having a presense within Ontario.Oerwinde 05:49, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Southern England Review
There is currently a small dispute on the Southern England talk page that the Isle of Wright would have belonged to New Britain. I personally agree, since that was the place that the British government was stationed, New Britain would have had contact with whoever remained on the Island. Arstarpool 00:56, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the difficulties in communicating between New Britan and the Isle of Wight would have led to "de facto" independence for the Isle.HAD 16:28, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

The New Britain page also says that the nation has 'renounced all claims to the British Isles' (or 'mainland Britain'; I can't remember exactly). That would seem to imply that they have nor claim any territory such as the Isle of Wight, meaning that Southern England is independent. Fegaxeyl 17:31, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

PUSA Constitutional Convention
Wasn't the P.U.S.A supposed to hold a constitutional convention in which it may or may not have declared itself the successor to the United States of America back in Febuary? Arstarpool 15:13, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Currency
Everywhere I look I see little micro-states with the "Ithacan Dollar" or the "Pasco Dollar" or even a city-state having the "Cape Rand". While I created a different currency for my American survivor nation, the Floridian Conch, I had imagined it being a coin thats value went by weight, not something mass produced in factories that would be housed God-knows-where. And even then, the several articles I adopted all use the American dollar, as does South Florida, who continues to use it. How would small city-states and other atrocities be able to manufacture their own currency? Zacks' "Kentucky" article is the perfect image of what Post-Doomsday currencies should be, at least in the former U.S. Arstarpool 14:43, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

New Map Time!
Its about time we got ourselves a new world map. We really need to start replacing our maps on a regular basis.Yankovic270 23:39, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

I have started work on a new map, while pretty much the same base map of the old one, but I have created a more organized Key and removed the colors that show 'powerful' countries (Union Interim Parliament, Cuba, Superior) and added some (MSP, Dixie Alliance, Taiwan). Tell me if I should continue work on this, or should I scrap the entire project in favor of a completely new map. Arstarpool 21:55, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just be sure when your making the Dixie Alliance not to make Kentucky, Cape Girardeau, & Virginia look like they are all apart of the same country. --GOPZACK 15:53, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Updating Maps
Yank raised an interesting point that we should update our maps on a regular basis. Should we have a protocol for replacing them every month of what? --GOPZACK 15:54, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

How about we update it every 15 new nations?HAD 20:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan HAD. I would just amend it slightly so we update it every 15 new nations or major territorial changes. --GOPZACK 01:19, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

So long as no one objects we ought to make this the new rule. --GOPZACK 18:42, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Flooding
I think we should establish a list of areas that were flooded after Doomsday, so that the community can ensure that when they are creating a new survivor nation they aren't accidentally placing it underwater, as well as to aid in future map-making. This could of course extend into a discussion over how nature will have reclaimed abandoned areas of the world after Doomsday, but I'd just like to start of considering areas that would be flooded. I get the ball rolling with areas that have been flooded in the UK: And globally a few more come to mind: Any more suggestions? Fegaxeyl 09:26, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Somerset Levels, located in the Celtic Alliance
 * The Fens, in/near East Britain
 * London, specifically around the River Lea and River Thames
 * The Eonile in Egypt
 * The Dutch Wastelands

Coastal Lousiana and parts of Florida spring to mind.--HAD 14:37, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Norfolk Broads?? Verence71 14:42, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Southern Manitoba along the Red River, the area around Leningrad in Russia, Venice, Sacramento river Valley in Northern California, Paris, the Adige in Northern Italy (an underground canal used to drain off floods, used in 2000), Northern Ireland, along the Daunbe in Europe, Rivers through the Dakotas (floods every year).

Also, a case can be made for many of the rivers in the US to have flooded somewhat, as many have levees of one sort or another.

Areas around some hydroelectric dams are also a possibility - dams may fail, or the water ends up backed up because the dam is closed and floods more areas. --Lordganon 22:58, May 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Canon is that the sea-level hasn't actually risen more than here. Louisiannan 17:19, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, but lots of areas we take for granted as high and dry today are built on easily floodable areas; with the pumps abandoned large areas will be submerged to varying degrees regardless of sea level rise. Fegaxeyl 18:24, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Feg's point. We've seen it with The Neatherlands.HAD 20:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * In regard to dams, Where any directlr targeted ( Hoover Dam for example might have been a major target...)?212.225.120.224 20:26, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt the Hoover Dam would be a target, it would be disabled by the EMP from the strike on the air base in Vegas. A strike would be redundant.Oerwinde 20:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt the Hoover Dam would be a target, it would be disabled by the EMP from the strike on the air base in Vegas. A strike would be redundant.Oerwinde 20:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Map-Making
Curious, but is there some sort of map-making program or something that you guys have been making the nicer maps with? Can't remember the name of the one I've used before, so....

Lordganon 0:25 June 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I use photoshop with the lasso tool. Allows me to make decent looking borders.Oerwinde 06:55, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Extended Wikibreak
Well guys, this is goodbye. I am going on an extended wiki-break and won’t be back until sometime in August. The reason for my leave of absence is because I will be taking the Illinois State Bar on July 27 and the 28. Since 1 out of 10 people fail this test, I am going to have to study hard and will not be able to spend much time here. To prove how serious I am, my fiancé will be changing my password so I cannot log in under my user name if I get tempted. So if I ever do lose control, I will be on only as a faceless anon, unable to access my watchlist or my admin abilities.

There are a few things I would like to say though now that I have the chance:
 * Except for those articles that I have officially opened up to adoption, I delegate the caretaking duties to Ben and Louis for all of my articles until my triumphant return. Any questions or decisions about said articles should be directed to them, unless it is something so important that my input is required. If that is the case you may contact me at mitro85@yahoo.com.
 * I said it before, but remember I am not the official graduator of the timeline. Anyone can graduate an article as long as they follow the . Please, however, follow through on your graduation. There is more to graduating an article than just removing the proposal template. Here is a suggested checklist:
 * Request the article to be graduated on the main talk page.
 * Allow time for people to insert any objections. In fact I would suggest waiting 1 to 3 days before graduating an article. I think we have been graduating articles too quickly, which is partly my fault, and is one of the factors that have led to some of our current issues. Also treat nation articles with a fine tooth comb.
 * If there are no objections or any objections have been satisfied, you can graduate the article. Start by archiving the article’s proposal in the Former Proposal archives.
 * Go to the article’s page and remove the proposal template. Also take the time to add the template and any categories that are needed.
 * Add article’s link at the top of the new content list on the portal page. Also remove the last item on the list.
 * Be respectful to each other. Just because you do not agree with someone does not mean you have to be an ass about it. Also don't fly off the handle because someone is disagreeing with you. A disagreement does not equal a personal attack.
 * There has been a lot of good discussion involving the issues of this TL. Keep it up. Discussion is good.

Finally I just want everyone to know how proud I am of everything that we created. This TL has evolved from its original 2 pages to one of the largest and most active communities on this wiki. I'm going to miss working on this TL with all of you, but my exile is not going to last forever. I'm looking forward to seeing what has been created in my absence. Mitro 17:04, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Good luck!! Verence71 18:54, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I hope you pass the Bar, my American Comrade. Good luck!HAD 19:38, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Best wishes, Mitro. Here's to excellent results!BrianD 22:38, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

All the best sir! GOPZACK 22:41, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Wish you the best of luck! Arstarpool 00:36, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

RV/Trailer Parks & Camp Grounds
How do small communities based in the various recreation parks around the world sound?

Yankovic270 23:12, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * They would be hard-pressed to find/make the necessary food and supplies for themselves. Most people in these parks are retirees, and more likely targets of aggression than survivors. Moreover, this is a very "consumptive" lifestyle. If you don't have a society supporting you, you cannot survive long-term. (I work in the RV industry.) Louisiannan 21:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Then what about the national and state parks, at least the parks that can support vegetation? There are a couple of states created in these parks (New Montgomery, Everglades). I would think that there would be more of these small states in the former US of A.

Yankovic270 20:19, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

It would be cool for some of these RV parks populations to become roving nomadic communities, travelling from place to place.174.1.100.195 17:48, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

1983 Doomsday mod for HOI2 DD/Armagedon
Recently i have began work on a HOI2 mod based around the 1983 DD timeline. I am capable of modding basic things like the country names, flags and number of units. But i am in desperate need of event writers, country descripions, names for tech teams and tech types/technologys and unit names. I would also apeciate it if there is anyone who could help me with the countrys and the regions they control. I would also apreciate anyone who has skills like mine to give me a hand in creating the countrys. Finaly i would apreciate it if theres anyone who can provide me with tech team/minister/technology pictures and unit modelsVegas adict 17:15, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

New Proposal Rules
After the discusion on the problems with the timeline i sugested that we should add some things to the proposal section. Well i thought about that and i sugesst we add these rules to the proposal section, 1) Any nations in the former USA must be suported by two people who arn't the creator before being graduated and secondly if you want to review an artical you should have the suport of a set number of peopleVegas adict 16:08, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I support these proposals. The other members of our group should be consulted, though.HAD 21:44, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, could members indicate there suport or dislike for the ideas i have proposedVegas adict 17:15, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Do you support the new rules? Yes No

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? I, for one, have none. Yankovic270 03:48, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

If you could remove the claims to Californian part of the nation, I will have no problems, but as of now the land you claimed in California is encroaching on my proposal Commonwealth of California. Arstarpool 05:41, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool this article came well before yours. The creator of Sierra Nevada has first dibs on the boarder. --GOPZACK 15:56, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

He's right if you want this to work you must remove the counties of Pulmas, Sierra, Nevada county, Placer, El Dorado, and Alpine from the borders of the California Commonwealth Riley.Konner 14:49, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the raised question over the western border of the SNU, only those portions of El Dorado, Placer, Alpine, and Mono Counties, CA east of the Sierra Nevada Mountains are actually part of the nation. The SNU has no claim or reason to claim any part of these counties west of the mountains, especially since the mountains act as a barricade to the chaos of CA. In that the Sierras are an extremely rugged and formidable natural barrier even in this day and given the overall existence of affairs post-Doomsday (no phones, electricity, etc.), communities east of the mountains might as well be on the moon in relation to those west. With the loss of the CA state government and the closer ties to Nevada (especially the Lake Tahoe region), it would be logical they would accept the offer to work with and join Nevada in the establishment of the SNU. Given the enormous logistical problems such a nation as the COC would have to overcome: the nuclear strikes and heavy fallout of Doomsday; the failure of infrastructure; refugees; and violence (such as illustrated in the nearby MSP) to name a few, any existing government would be more focused on basic survival and not be able to reasonably extend its authority east of the mountains. I should also note in passing, my article does in fact predate the COC. As to graduating my article, as much as I would like to do so, I feel it would not be fair to do this until the disagreement is resolved over the eastern borders with Louisianan. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 17:40, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I still question how a fully developed nation-state could take shape in one of the USA's most inhospitable areas. The New Zealand flyover in the 1990s found absolutely nothing - why is it so difficult for us to respect what's already been written? Benkarnell 21:17, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ben, let me begin by saying when I originally wrote this article it was not my intent in any way shape or form to disrespect anything previously written. In fact, I have always tried to go out of my way to be respectful to others here. I had in fact read the section you reference and did take note of it. It surprised me to some extent given my personal knowledge of the region, having visited it a number of times and developed a feeling for it. When I first started thinking about this idea back in January I decided to do my customary lengthy analysis to see if my idea had any merit. I focused on two thoughts, was there any evidence to support the supposition the region could have become a wasteland/vast desert and that aside, could NV logically survive and exist as a nation. The more I read and researched, I could find nothing to logically support the idea it was a wasteland. I also found substantial evidence supporting the premise of the state surviving and the viability of becoming a survivor nation. I took note for example there was only one primary and one secondary target site in the state. This in turn reflected a northern and central area (with one exception) being free of the same damage we have seen elsewhere. Thus intact roads, rails, etc. The bulk of the fallout would more likely be to the south, with that reaching the north having to make it over the Sierras and the rest coming from Oregon, Washington, or Idaho, which did not strike me as being as severe as that of say, southern CA. Further, Carson City, the state capital, would more than likely have survived since it was not on the strike list (in fact nearby Reno was a third place target). Given this, I felt it was very realistic the governor survived along with the bulk of the state government and as such, there would be an existing framework on which to build on where as most states did not have. I also noted the existence of many farms and ranches throughout the region to help with food production; the existence of water supplies; and even energy deposits. Lastly, given the altered weather patterns, this would have assured rainfall far and above that of the pre-DD period as seen elsewhere and would assured the blooming of plant life and aid the growing of agriculture.

I realize given what the general perception of NV tends to be by most folks, i.e. desert, I can understand the immediate thought would be to simply write it off as being some inhospitable region. But as I have said, I found to much evidence in my research which contradicted this assumption and gave every indication it had more than a better fighting chance at survival. In fact, I would have given NV far better odds than some other nations which have arisen in areas which just seemed...downright odd to me on the survivability scale. The insight I have developed through my own work and everything I have read thus far was when this story first originated, it was a blank slate so to speak and was filled in sporadically at first. With time, many of the grey areas have little by little been filled in and some earlier assumptions have been changed, sometimes in small ways and some big. Last fall for example, I put forward a lengthy examination as to why Israel should be removed from the defunct list. As a result, this was changed and I went on to write the article. It had been my hope from the beginning my article and what I stated would speak for itself as to why the SNU logically could exist without having to go into lengthy dialogues that I seem to have to continually do. Perhaps if I had set aside my zeal in writing this and extensively laid out all these thoughts earlier, these issues could have been avoided. I have observed with some considerable perplexity, no major issues were raised with me regarding my article as to it being unfeasible or its borders until the current disagreement arose.

Lastly, I should point out I did in fact read all the articles dealing with the surrounding areas before I wrote my piece. For example, I did note and include that LV was destroyed, which appeared in the UT article. The reason the problem arose over the border issue was because next to nothing was in fact ever written in any existing articles concerning NV or part of it joining another state/nation. Additionally, the sentence in the Benjamin Franklin article seems confusing. If you read it, it states a pilot flew inland from Tillamook, OR and "reports reaching a vast desert as he approached the old Idaho/Nevada border. Radiation levels were minimal, but the area seemed devoid of plant and animal life." Where did this desert exist, NV or ID? What would have concievability existed in this region to have received such catastropic damage to transform the entire region into a deadzone, especially we have since ascertained there were few major hits in this region. Given the altered weather patterns, where is the presence of the heavy rains and why is the desert not blooming due to them? Even if no one was alive for some reason, water would already begun filling up the ancient endorheic lake flooding the northwestern part of the state. It has alreday been stated people are farming in southern ID and the region was cultivated.

As I have said, I am open to discussion. If my conclusions are so skewed, please show me where my logic is faulty and I would gladly discuss making revisions. Thanks for your time.--Fxgentleman 02:07, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not questioning your research or your conclusions. But I really do not think that North America, particularly the western third of the continent, has room for another large state. There are already four big ones, five if you count the pUSA and pCanada as separate, which they are. Another big one simply pushes the region well beyond the letter and spirit of our established material.
 * Could it be shrunk down? Rather than all of Nevada, could it encompass just the western mountainous area? That would be all the state government would be interested in protecting anyway, during the 80s and 90s and most of the 00s. The desert would be moister by now, but for the first decade it would definitely still be a desert, and those who could would leave for places that could support them. Nowadays, maybe the former desert is starting to be re-peopled by subsistence farmers, and the Nevada republic is doing what it can to bring/keep them under its jurisdiction. That would incidentally solve the Utah border issue.
 * The bottom line, though, is that we no longer have a picture of a society wiped out. It's more of a society where everybody is OK, but they inexplicably split up into little micro-republics. SouthWriter has posed the question before: if so many people and places survived so well, why did they stop caring about the national government? The old answer was that everything was just too devastated for any thought of national institutions. Now, the answer seems to be that everyone spontaneously created local republics and didn't bother communicating with anyone outside their new borders.
 * So I think S.N. would be a perfect addition if we still had a blank slate - to me it's an excellently written and researched page, and it makes more sense than a lot of what we've got - but it's not a blank slate anymore. Another large survivor, large enough to rub against other large survivors, raises new questions of "why didn't they just stick together as the USA". There is literally no way to explain the overall picture in the context of our Doomsday scenario. Benkarnell 16:16, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that interstate communications and transportation was absolutely devestated. And the USA is a big, huge country. I think that even if the various States had tried to hold the USA together, a combination of the distances involved, the devastated communications (Vermont is across the other side of the country form Alaska), the differing needs of each State, as well as their differing infastructures and econimies would have made it impossible for the USA to be held together. Most of the states declared independence around 1984/85, right. I bet that even one or two years after doomsday, it would be impossible to travel from, lets say Odessa to Broken Bow without being killed to death.HAD 20:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that interstate communications and transportation was absolutely devestated. And the USA is a big, huge country. I think that even if the various States had tried to hold the USA together, a combination of the distances involved, the devastated communications (Vermont is across the other side of the country form Alaska), the differing needs of each State, as well as their differing infastructures and econimies would have made it impossible for the USA to be held together. Most of the states declared independence around 1984/85, right. I bet that even one or two years after doomsday, it would be impossible to travel from, lets say Odessa to Broken Bow without being killed to death.HAD 20:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ben, my apologies for not responding sooner. Rather than take up space here, I have opened a new section in the SNU discussion page about rewriting my article. You can find my response to your thoughts there. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 02:59, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

No offense, but MULTIPLE canon articles have proven what a wasteland much of the West is. And while I agree the deserts would be moister, the SNU would starve to death before any crops could be planted. Arstarpool 17:28, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
I just made a proposal about the Republic of Georgia, a breakaway Georgia that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * You make vague mention of military bases in Georgia being hit. Can you be more specific? I think Batumi would be hit. Mitro 16:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Arstarpool 16:21, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not yet its still very vague. --GOPZACK 19:29, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I already change the article (which I din't created) VENEZUELA 02:15, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

May I ask who marked this page obsolete, and for what purpose? Arstarpool 01:02, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I believe it was due to the "Plausibility Singularity" debate we recently had. HAD 15:24, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar, I'm afraid you didn't really get a chance to defend your creation. But I think consensus is that we're rapidly reaching the point (or have already reached the point) where any more nations in North America just keeps it from being true to the timeline. On its own, I think, nobody had any problems with the Commonwealth. But taken together, I think there was just too much near the West Coast. Benkarnell 15:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should graduate it quickly, and place some sort of block on building nations in the West Coast of the United States. It would be a shame to see an otherwise perfectly canonj-worthy nation go to waste.

Yankovic270 16:01, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for speedy graduation. Can we get a show in hands?

P.S:

Ben, when saying the short version of my username, it's said, Ars, not Arstar :) Arstarpool 23:11, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't graduate articles by vote. Furthermore I am with Ben, the west has gotten way to crowded and probably has fallen into the probability singularity. That being said maybe this article could be graduated if it is reconceived as one of the many city-states that ruled over Northern California and Southern Oregon, but managed to avoid coming under the jurisdiction of the MSP. Mitro 23:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know things aren't graduated by vote, but it would be better to see who would support this article becoming canon. And Mitro, the area is not as near to the MSP as seen by alot of you guys, and the location was changed several times to be sure that it would be closer to plausible canon. Arstarpool 20:44, May 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think he means, shrink it down a bit so it's more of a single settlement, or a confederation of small settlements, rather than a modern republic. It could still call itself the Commonwealth of California. IMO North America ought to have a lot more "nations" that are governed at the local level, than modern territorial states. That's how my only contribution to the continent (the Yukon) works, along with the first North American survivor state we discovered (the MSP). Benkarnell 21:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the map the Commonwealth is at the southern border of the MSP, unless that is wrong. Mitro 00:02, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Arstarpool 02:52, May 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Arstarpool 02:52, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to graduate this just yet. Lets wait until Sierra Nevada becomes canon because that will surly effect the history of the Commonwealth of California. --GOPZACK 03:22, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

While I wait for the day that will problably never come, the day Sierra Nevada is graduated, this article sits in the dust. Sierra Nevada has been in a stalemate with Utah over the borders for several months now, and it's obviously not going anywhere. I will happily make some changes if Sierra Nevada ever becomes canon. Arstarpool 05:32, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

A small article associated with the article. --GOPZACK 20:08, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Zach, I clearly said on the Activity Feed page that I claimed the Muscle Shoals CSA:

Confederate States of America (1983: Doomsday) created by BrianD 20 hours ago Waynesboro is in the Muscle Shoals CSA. That said, if you can come up with a proposal for Waynesboro that works with what I come up with for this version of the CSA, I'll work it in...please keep in mind I came up with the proposal for these towns, and I've already made a claim on them for subsequent articles. BrianD 20:23, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm terribly sorry about that, I did not see the original post when it was created. I hope you don't take this article as a slap in the face but rather me failing to read the fine print. In any event I hope it can be incorporated somehow. --GOPZACK 20:34, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * De nada. Take a look at the Muscle SHoals CSA article below.BrianD 00:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm temporarily suspending work on this article until the framework for the "new" CSA is formed then me & Brain will work to make articles for the now independent city states of the CSA. --GOPZACK 19:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to it being graduated? Any issues you may have will be dealt with. I just need to know what they are.

Yankovic270 01:25, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe more information on the geographical area occupied? Also, you may want to take into account the air base at Cold Lake, in northeastern Alberta, which would likely have been hit; even if not the case it would need to be taken into account.

--Lordganon 8:29, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

I can't let this be graduated until Oerwinde's concerns are addressed. --GOPZACK 18:03, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

The area is roughly the portions of Alberta and Saskatchewan not in Provisional Canada control. And is it possible that at least one air base in Canada managed to slip through the cracks? Either way, I doubt it would affect Athabaskan history too much.

Yankovic270 20:25, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt Cold Lake would not have been hit. It was/is the largest CFB, after all.HAD 13:57, June 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree HAD, at best maybe it was hit with a non nuclear ballistic missile. --GOPZACK 19:10, June 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * So Yank has added in that Cold Lake was destroyed by a non-nuclear ballistic missile. I'm fine with that what do the rest of you think? I think this can be graduated if the Athabaskan's are less isolationistic and more willing to consider the NAU or the Provisional Canada.--GOPZACK 20:14, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

More like it. But, given that Northern Saskatchewan is largely uninhabited forestland, it may be a good plan to take that out - the occupied area of provisional Canada according to the map includes virtually all settled regions of the province, so there would be virtually no people there. Kinda hard to have statelets if there's not even any hamlets, lol Either way, no reason to control the area if there's nothing there. Cut back the population to maybe 250-300 thousand too.

--Lordganon 20:52, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Zack. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm holding off on this one until Gainsville is canonized. --GOPZACK 02:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation to a stub? Arstarpool 06:03, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the details of strikes in the area needs to get ironed out first. We need to come to a consensus on whether Florence was hit and what the strikes on Camp Darby, Livorno, and La Spezia would do to the region.Oerwinde 09:48, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * We've already settled out Livorno and La Spezia. As for Camp Darby, I'm going to let it pass. After all, not every U.S. Military base was nuked, as this would certainly effect the Commonwealth of Kentucky and Virginia. Arstarpool 05:51, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not every base was nuked, but the largest US base in Italy most likely would be. Anyway, with La Spezia and Livorno nuked, this would heavily effect outside contact with the major nearby ports destroyed.Oerwinde 07:25, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * La Spezia is not in the Tuscan province, although I'm assuming that there would have been minor radiation traces lingering at the border of Massa-Carrara. weather chart that was posted shows that most of the fallout would go into the Mediterranian. As for Livorno, there's not much to say. The destruction of Camp Darby has been written in, causing minor damage to Pisa. Arstarpool 16:08, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * La Spezia isn't part of Tuscany but its pretty much right on the border. And being a major naval base as well as port, industrial center and the location of Italy's largest military contractor, I think it would warrant a pretty large strike, which would blanket northwestern Tuscany in fallout. Anyway, I think its looking good now.16:46, June 8, 2010 (UTC)Oerwinde
 * What about Florence? Was it hit? --GOPZACK 20:02, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Florence, despite being the capital of the reigon, houses no military or NATO installations. So no, it was not hit. Arstarpool 23:47, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Florence, despite being the capital of the reigon, houses no military or NATO installations. So no, it was not hit. Arstarpool 23:47, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

The problem with saying it on that basis is that the amount of heavy industry in Florence would make it a target, irregardless of the lack of military bases. Lordganon 3:34, June 9, 2010

I doubt the Soviets would have the time or the missiles to nuke every city with some significant commercial buisness. Arstarpool 18:21, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

If Regina, Winnipeg, and Calgary were nuked... Florence is just as important, if not more than those.Oerwinde 18:27, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Both me and Fedelede are showing no interest for the destruction of Florence. We made all the aforementioned changes, but the destruction of Florence will make the entire article implausible. Arstarpool 18:42, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

No one is "interested" in seeing Florence nuked were just arguing that it may in fact be implausible for it not to be hit. --GOPZACK 20:22, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Right. The point you're putting as Florence to have heavy industry is also nonesense because, frankly, the New Venice is also a heavy industry center. If that wasn't hit, Florence wouldn't be hit. Plus, do you think the USSR had enough nukes to nuke EVERY SINGLE LITTLE CITY AND LITTLE MILITARY CAMP OF EUROPE? Europe, ALL OF IT, would be an uninhabitable wasteland. Fedelede 19:56, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

He has a point. As I stated in my argument for "New Rome", when It comes to ones advantage, a city is saved, in the case of Venice. Is it a miracle that almost every Australian city was nuked except for the capital? And as for New Zealand, which was involved in the ANZUS pact, is it also a miracle that Wellington was not nuked? Was it a miracle that so many cities in Israel evaded destruction? As Fedele said, the USSR, or even NATO, did not have enough nuclear missiles, or enough time to plan and destroy every city of significance. If that had been the case, Japan, Australia, and even the USSR would be the radiated trash heaps that so many other nations became. Arstarpool 20:10, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Calm down Fedelede. Seriously.

Now, Venice has not been a center of industry or even a major naval base for at least a hundred years by 1983. Quite frankly, to make a comparison like that is frivolous. Venice is a city with a small population compared to Florence, and is a city of tourists. It fact, NOT hitting it would make things worse for Italy, since it does not generate much of anything and any surviving government would have to feed all those useless people. Florence, however, is a center of industry, which in a war would end up producing things like tanks or guns, the destruction of which would hurt more than not destroying it.

The goal in a counter strike as was first launched would be to both eliminate places from which further retaliation could come, as many places as possible to prevent the launching of a ground assault, and to hurt the war-making capabilities of the enemy.

Now, I know the Doomsday target page is not accurate at all, but comparing Spain and Italy - two countries of roughly the same power - the difference in the amount of targets is large, and Italy was a more active member of NATO!

Looking for Italian targets on the internet, I find that while not a primary target, it looks like it would be a secondary one. On the same token, Venice is not on the map with any kind of indicator like the rest of the strikes.

Taking out Florence would not make the article implausible. You just have to make another city the capital and lower the population, adjusting a few words of the history in the process. The radiation from such a blast would go more northeast than anything, so that's not even really too much a problem.

Make a poll of it or something, maybe. But, you're just dismissing it out of hand. Lordganon 11:57, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

The entire nation was centered around Florence. If that city is lost, then I will have to scrap the idea. Arstarpool 19:30, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Don't be so negative! The cities of Lucca and Siena, at the very least, have equally long histories and culture, and were at some point capitals - they'd work as new ones. Just call it the tuscany head government officals getting out of florence in time, having got a little warning.

Lordganon 00:25 June 11, 2010 (UTC)

How about a non-nuclear option? It's already been shown in multiple articles that the Soviets eventually resorted to using missiles with non-nuclear warheads. Arstarpool 01:21, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

That sounds better already, though a low-yield ground-burst in the industrial district would prolly be more likely, to me anyway. Even a regular strike would likely make Florence a bad capital choice, however, and require editing of the article, though it would mean more people live. Lordganon 21:12, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

An article to document the Somali Civil WarVegas adict 21:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * The vote from the poll above resulted in the war still being ongoing. Mitro 23:11, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * That makes sense as the real Somali Civil War has been going on for nearly 20 years Verence71 14:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Malaysia
Another nation I wrote about in Southeast Asia. Post-DD history is for anyone to fill in, because I don't want to contradict anyone's plan for the nation. --Yankovic270 23:55, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for the island nation of Maldives --GOPZACK 19:35, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Sultanate of Turkey
The Sultanate of Turkey is the successor state of the now defunct Republic of Turkey. I've started to write the article. Commentary and ideas are welcome. Most of the pre-Doomsday history is straight off Wikipedia. And I hope this doesn't conflict with any already accepted nations in this althist. I've accounted for the existence of Kurdistan, the Greek control of Rhodes and the (formerly) Turkish Straits, and the possiblity of an enlarged Armenia in eastern Turkey, though I'm not sure there's an accepted article about Armenia.

Caeruleus 22:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, its pretty awesome. Any objections? Arstarpool 17:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

An article by Yank. --GOPZACK 23:14, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just looked over the article and it is very positive. That doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but I couldn't help thinking as I read it: 'This country is extremely, unrealistically lucky'. Okay, so you have access to a pool of bright, intelligent young people, but that doesn't mean they will all keep their heads on and get down to business as soon as Doomsday passes. Especially given that there will probably be a horde of hostile refugees from New York City and elsewhere who will probably make life hell for anyone in the region for months, even years. And a 'regional economy' reestablishing itself? Pretty much all that that area can offer is food and a rapidly diminishing amount of salvage. I guess my problem with this article is that it seems exceptionally positive; throw in some darkness and tone down the brightness into a more realistic atmosphere and I'll probably be more appreciative. Fegaxeyl 06:59, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome to change the article as you see fit.

Yankovic270 14:38, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yank, this is Mitro, just wanted to stop by and say that is a really terrible attitude to have for this TL. Yes this is a collaborative project, but if you want your article graduated you need to be willing to address people's concerns, not just say "you do it." Actually I remember you had the same bad attitude when you first joined and you wanted your "Washingtonian Empire" graduated, do you remember those events? Seriously Yank don't devolve back into the way you were before. Mitro
 * Yank, go look at the talk page for Prussia. I started it a little too light and worked with the others to make it more believable. The discussion also lead to some pretty cool ideas as well, and if you come up with ideas that bring it more in line then its still your baby.Oerwinde 08:35, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for my immature behavior, but you know me better than anyone else. You Know that I don't "do" dark. It's just simply not my style. I request that anyone reading this puts suggestions on the Ithaca talkpage, so that I can make this article more plausible. I need more than "tone it down". If Fegaxeyl has a problem with the article, he should take it to the talk page and spell it out.

Yankovic270 01:20, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

An article by Yank. --GOPZACK 18:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation?

Yankovic270 20:44, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said on the talk page, I'd like to know if this Estonia is the same as Estland, which is mentioned in the Nordic Union page. If it is, then the name should be changed.--Vladivostok 14:48, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

No it isn't. Estland is another state in OTL Estonia. The flags are different, and it declared independance about a year before the Estonians did. If you want to create an article on it, you could place it in the northeastern part of the country (the part closest to the Karelia region).

Yankovic270 01:06, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

An article by Yank. GOPZACK 18:55, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

An article created by Yank but up for adoption. --GOPZACK 03:56, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

A proposal of a Post-DD Bavaria. --Jnjaycpa 20:46, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Croatia
Article created by me.

Yankovic270 20:56, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Slab City (1983: Doomsday)
Article I created about a very small state in southern California. --Yankovic270 01:18, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

So what do people think of this RV community, does it have any merit? --GOPZACK 04:09, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Somalia
Just a little idea I had for something arising out of the ongoing Somali Civil War Verence71 19:01, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Mauritius
Article I created. Any objections to graduation?

Yankovic270 20:57, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

It would help if you linked up to it. --GOPZACK 23:18, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

One million people on an island nation the size of my thumb?, I'm sorry, but most of those people would probably starve after Doomsday. Not to mention that communications and transportation would problably be cut. Arstarpool 23:14, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Invasion of West Suffolk
A live segment of 1983DD, which will be worked on by me and Verence71. If he agrees. Fegaxeyl 20:32, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me :) Verence71 21:11, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Bohemia
A proposal of a survivor nation in former Czechoslovakia. Jnjaycpa 01:54, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Don Republic
A republic in Don River in former USSR. VENEZUELA 00:10, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Crimea
A Socialist Republic in Crimea, right next to the Don Republic. 01:39, June 8, 2010 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Kuban People's Republic
A country in the caucasus, wich was created by the kuban cossacks

A survivor state in the German state of Hessen. Thoughts? Lordganon 10:09, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I really like this article. :-) --GOPZACK 19:35, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Glad to hear it.Lordganon 10:53, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

A coalition of several nations and city states in the area surounding the Rhein in former west germanyVegas adict 16:52, June 8, 2010 (UTC) Any objections to graduation?Vegas adict 17:25, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Russian Republics
Some proposals for Ex-USSR countries in Europe (if you propose one put your signature) and please NO communist states.

All of above: VENEZUELA 23:56, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

You can't dictate if a state were to be communist or not. This is a collabritive effort.HAD 19:45, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Also, Karelia and Ossetia are already done.Oerwinde 09:11, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

While a lot would be democratic or whatnot, there would definitely be some communist ones not part of Siberia due to distance. Implausible for that not to be the case.

Heck, there's probably even a claimant to the Russian Empire running around somewhere.

Also, a couple of those are included in the Ural territory or could be. Komi for sure, maybe Bashkortostan, Tartarstan, Udmurtia, and Chuvashia too, though if not they would have been conquered by now for sure, given the ability of Siberia to project force as seen by their conquest and control of Aralia.

Lordganon 18:15, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, as you said, Komi for sure, at least parts of it, but the rest are a bit out of reach. The attack of Aralia was a show of force, but I'm not quite sure they would be able to attack more nations, at least not this year.--Vladivostok 21:04, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Bashkortostan and Udmurtia are located in the urals themsleves, and the capital of Tartarstan is Kazan, which would be right next to it, if not part of it. I'll give you Chuvashia, though it's the province west of Tartarstan, about as hard to strike as Aralia.

Lordganon 00:25 June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, what I meant to say is that they are overstretched militarily, range has nothing to do with this. Perhaps air strikes could do some damage, but military obligations in the Caribbean and elsewhere would leave their armies out of supplies in these areas. But, as I said, there's always next year.--Vladivostok 09:43, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Not what I meant - the Ural territory has been in existence since the early 90s, any of those in the urals would be part of Siberia alreadly and at least Tartarstan would have long been annexed, being right against the border.

But anything further away would be safe, due to the overstretching.

Lordganon 21:12, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

I already make Kalmykia. VENEZUELA 03:47, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Azerbaijan
Azerbaijan Republic, any objection to graduation? VENEZUELA 01:34, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

A survivor state in the mountains of Southern Bulgaria which claims to be its successor. Will be fleshed out over the next while. Lordganon 10:53, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Dagestan
Republic in the caucasus. VENEZUELA 22:29, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections? Arstarpool 17:30, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

=== Swabia-Württemberg===

A proposal of a survivor nation in Southern Germany. Jnjaycpa 04:44, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections? Arstarpool 17:30, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

German South West Africa Review
I have recently adopted the article of German South West Africa after completing another article I adopted in the region, Volkstaat. In hopes to have it re-canonized, I essentially re-made the entire article. Rather than going along with the crap of an entire German city moving to Southwest Africa, I concentrated more on the local German population, with a small amount of European Germans emigrating only in recent times. I do hope this article can reach canonization as it would be a nice addition to 1983: Doomsday, as well as the New Union of South Africa.Arstarpool 04:15, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

A city state in Germany, mentioned in the Northeim article.Oerwinde 08:55, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Armenia
Armenia. VENEZUELA 03:07, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Kalmykia
Kalmykia in OTL Russia. VENEZUELA 03:48, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

A proposal for an economic union and former New England. Arstarpool 03:43, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I hate to crush the idea so fast but I believe there is a "New England Confederation" in the works. You could always rename the article to that. --GOPZACK 04:07, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see my comments on my talk page and on the talk page for this proposal. The New England Confederation was proposed, but never got very far. Vermont's independence and neutrality is too important to it for the country to give it up to a larger organization or country. BrianD 14:01, June 17, 2010 (UTC)




 * Furthermore, I made the NAC "loose" enough to fit into Vermont's neutrality. Arstarpool 14:28, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to becoming obsolete, since Brian refuses to let me use Vermont or the Northern townships? Arstarpool 16:29, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to becoming obsolete, since Brian refuses to let me use Vermont or the Northern townships? Arstarpool 16:29, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Science of Radioactive Survivors
Not really a nation proposal, just a thought on a new topic. ProfessorMcG 03:01, June 22, 2010 (UTC)



=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

Original Author Update
First off again, I'd like to say how proud I am to have been the inspiration for this monumental series on my althist. It's really amazing, given I did nothing more than extrapolate a bit based on what happened with Colonel Petrov. It's really amazing how that incident and "how things might have gone" has inspired so much great work and imagination from so many people. I'm glad to have "gotten the ball rolling" so many years ago.

That said, one thing I do find disturbing about all the Post-Doomsday articles and elements....a rather optimistic view of how things turned out the post-holocaust years. The rise of viable, even militarily strong American nation-states...as well as a "Well, wasn't that inconvenient?" attitude about the impact of a nuclear war on the world.

People, such an event would have been catastrophic to humanity. Setting aside America being knocked back to a population level LOWER than what it was before Columbus arrived...and the ensuing lack of agriculture and rise of diseases not seen since the 1600s....the effect on the rest of the world, even the Southern Hemisphere would have been tremendous. Even by 1983, the world was fairly "inter-connected"...the loss of American, Soviet, European, and Japanese industries would have crippled Australia and South America's engineering, construxtion, medical supplies, and more importantly...food production.

I'm sorry, but all this "Mad Max" meets "New World Order based in Canberra" stuff is EXTREMELY rose-colored glasses. The world would be knocked back in time CENTURIES in terms of economics and technology and political organization.

Sorry....just my opinion for what it's worth. 12.169.202.130 18:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Before I address the merits of your argument I have to ask: how do we know you were the original creator? Considering that I already had to deal with one person falsely claiming to be the creator and your IP address does not match with the one the original creator used, I hope you can understand why I am skeptical. Mitro 19:24, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to hear this as well. BrianD 21:42, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I certainly can understand scepticism. Please check my IP address. There is also discussion on previous Doomsday Talk pages dating back to the original posting of it in 2007. Happy to have the webmaster confirm that.12.169.202.130 17:45, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I do not quite understand what you are asking me to do to confirm you are the creator. The original creator used the 70.150.208.34 ip address which is obviously not the one you are using now. Since this is a wiki there is no webmaster (and if there was one I doubt even they could be of help) to confirm that these two seperate addresses are used by the same person. To tell you the truth I am inclined to believe you are the original creator, based on a comparison of edits, but there is no hard evidence to connect both addresses to the same person. Mitro 18:06, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, home vs office....try this IP97.82.131.34 02:00, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Otherwise I don't know how to prove it. Suffice it to say that I heard about Stanislav Petrov on a news magazine show in 2007ish and thought it would make a good althist, using a combo of "The Day After" and a little "On the Beach" (though I noted in my discussion, that it was no rip-off of OTB, but simply logical that Australia would pull through.).


 * Well, I certainly don't see any reason not to believe you... are you interested in joining our collaboration more fully? If you're concerned with where your creation has gone, you'd be better able to change things if you were actively involved. You could even get yourself a username so we had something to call you... Benkarnell 15:27, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does Deus Ex Machina sound good for this guy?HAD 17:10, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have an account...just never log in. This is me. Gblack61 19:33, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, I have a problem with the extrapolation of "Doomsday"...it's just too optimistic. You've got a "League of Nations" and a world in the Southern Hemisphere back to practically 1980s economic and political levels only 20-25 years after nuclea holocaust. Plus some of these "American republics"...which would take CENTURIES to re-form, given the ecological damage and collapse of civilization.Gblack61 19:33, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is that if you are the original creator (Which i will asume for the purposes of the conversations) you never stated how badly the world was nuked. This isn't fallout where every city in the world was nuked, it was a series of co-ordinated military strikes. However i do feel that you have a point with the american republics, certainly in america which would have been the USSR's main target there was no chance of things reaching a stable level. If this was inteaded to be a timeline in which the world was ment to be nuked back to the stone age then you should have made it clearer and i'm sorry if we'v interpreted it wronglyVegas adict 19:57, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, But QSS/QAA (is it that way round?) makes that impossible to change.HAD 20:07, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes and no, HAD. Things can be harmonized or explained on individual articles without affecting the TL as a whole. At the same time we have a review procedure in place for situations when articles that are graduated into canon are objected to. The way I see it, we all make mistakes and as a group we have the added danger of falling into group think. I have been a strong advocate of said procedure and while I know it has inherit dangers with it, I think if used very sparingly it can be helpful in making sure newer articles don't step over older articles. That being said, even I find Gblack61's prediction of the post-Doomsday world to be very pessimistic (and that is saying something from someone who was once asked "ins't this enough of dystopia already for you?"). Mitro 01:57, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes and no, HAD. Things can be harmonized or explained on individual articles without affecting the TL as a whole. At the same time we have a review procedure in place for situations when articles that are graduated into canon are objected to. The way I see it, we all make mistakes and as a group we have the added danger of falling into group think. I have been a strong advocate of said procedure and while I know it has inherit dangers with it, I think if used very sparingly it can be helpful in making sure newer articles don't step over older articles. That being said, even I find Gblack61's prediction of the post-Doomsday world to be very pessimistic (and that is saying something from someone who was once asked "ins't this enough of dystopia already for you?"). Mitro 01:57, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, Gblack - it's nice to know whom to credit, even if it is just an alias. I'll echo HAD and say that it's simply too late to go back to the vision of things you describe. The revived UN idea dates back to before any of us got involved, to when it was just XiReney playing with your source material. And, I'll add, if even the non-targeted nations are incapable of something as simple as creating a forum for dialogue after 25 years, well, there's not a whole lot left to write a story about!
 * You do keep bringing up something that I also repeat often (and I often get ignored). That's the importance of infrastructure. When global trade patterns break down, communities will be left with 18th-century resources, and that means 18th-century population densities and settlement patterns. That, at least, holds as true for the un-bombed 3rd world as it does for the bombed-out 1st and 2nd. However, old technology will still be around; it will just be rare and costly. Typical governments, IMO, ought to have access to gasoline-powered vehicles, even if most people and businesses around the world do not. (To name one example.)
 * Anyway, our guiding principle is (or ought to be) respect for the work of others - and that means those who came after us as well as before us. It would be most un-Wiki to utterly scrap anything. Benkarnell 03:46, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Gblack81's vision is very much in keeping with On the Beach/The Day After....but remember the former was made to show that nuclear war was unwinnable. Perhaps it is closest to the truth of what actually would happen. But I cannot help but think that if there was a fighting chance to survive, people would try their best to do so if they could. BrianD 05:08, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I DID note that it was a full-out deployment of all nuclear weapons...note (paraphrasing) "Reagan gave orders for all forces, including "city buster" missiles launched", plus the Pershing-Is in Europe, as well as Russian strikes and the 30% remaining Chinese nuclear forces....AND a notation of the number of weapons fired and the time it took to fire them all (again paraphrasing) "for over an hour and and half".
 * The "total commitment" doctrine was in full swing in 1982. Fear of Russia taking out launch sites, with a surprise attack or their own SLBMs or a cruise missile, was what prompted the development of the "Minuteman" and the idea of "mobile launchers" or a missiles moviing from one silo to another on rail-tracks. Any reserve forces would have been the nuclear bombers (airborne) or the ballistic missile subs. Given Reagan's rhetoric (pre-Reykjavik) he likely would have "fired everything we had" on advice from civilian and military advisors who would see little point in keeping another "reserve" that risked being destroyed, rather than launched.
 * Secondly, again, I think people are VASTLY underestimating the ecological damage as well as the damage to inter-connected foreign trade. Australia had little manufacturing in 1982, especially for tractors, medical supplies, electronics, spare parts for naval,air, land vehicles. Then there's a HUGE loss in oil supplies.
 * Think "chaos theory"...pull the plug on their farmers getting enough oil for their tractors (as well as spare parts) and food production drops dramatically. Then you've got major shortages, rationing AT BEST for years to come, likely at near-starvation levels. Then the rest of the economy collapses and you've got a LOT of unemployed Aussies. Recently?....think the situation in Greece in 2010...and multiply that by 1000-fold.
 * Sorry, but 21st Century "Doomsday" world...is WAY too optimistic.Gblack61 19:44, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but 21st Century "Doomsday" world...is WAY too optimistic.Gblack61 19:44, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a pretty hard-to-refute argument. Especially about the manufacturing capacity of Australia and New Zealand, a pretty foundational issue to the ATL but not one we've researched thoroughly... still, again, it's too late to throw away everything - everything - that's been written since you opened it for adoption. If we are going to attempt a full review fo the TL, food should be the first issue we focus on. Benkarnell 21:24, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * You certainly put a good argument about food supplys and resources, however the first revision of the 1983:Doomsday and most of the subsequent revisions by you and others stated;

1983: Doomsday postulated the alternative outcome of the Sept. 26, 1983, when Colonel Stanislav Petrov was alerted, in error, to a possible US missile strike against the Soviet Union.

In OTL, Colonel Petrov believed the information to be false and did not alert the Kremlin to the data he was receiving. Given Cold War tensions at the time, such information would likely have convinced the Soviets that the US had launched a first strike attempting to "cut off the head" and launched their forces, in the believe it was a "counter-strike", not a first-strike.

The resulting nuclear exchange would have been close to the forecasts of almost complete destruction and "nuclear winter" predicted by many scientists of the day, resulting in as much as two billion people killed initially, possibly another two billion in the subsequent environmental disaster.
 * That implys that both sides belived that they were being attacked and would have launched a counter strike to destroy military bases and control centers. That doesn't imply it was an attack at all population centers, in counterstrikes you normaly try to stop the enemy attacking you again Not on food centers or population centers without strategic importanceVegas adict 08:27, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

But there is no evidence that the Soviets, seeing an American "first strike" in progress (even though false) would "hold anything back". Again, given Reagan's rhetoric and open discussions by Americans "hawks" of "winning a nuclear war"...the USSR would launch everything it had, to prevent reserves being destroyed. "Limited nuclear war" was theorized, but never policy nor thought to be workable. Gblack61 19:50, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not gonna start the "IP-is-someone-the-founder"-discussion again...I just generally doubt any claims and oppose them as this question is not really vital as No single person could claim ownership of "1983: Doomsday". I a few times acted like I "own" or "supervise" this Timeline... and I am glad I backed away from that as waht we have now would NEVER be possible without the community standing behind it.

So with all respect Gblack, (not finally judging the IP-physical ownership): I oppose your claim mainly because of the way you try to use it to present your opinions about the IYO too optimistic tendency of the TL

But to discuss by reasonable meanings:
 * 1. Yes, I am a convinced optimist and largely believe in the ideals of multi-lateral cooperation and spirit. and


 * Yes, after the very first edits/plays I did with the raw scenario description I found I WANTED the tendency to be optimistic and not too dystopian.


 * The general tendency ( I am gonna make a detailed comment on that below) was consciously (Ben, Mitro others) taken too a quite optimistic scenario (if 900 million death epople can be optmistic. The idea of people-after facing near extinction- finally going to work together (largely) was carried into creating ANZC, Celtic, Alpine, nordic Union etc....

Conclusion: I honour your opinion, I invite you to intensely discussing this and the direction of the TL as you care about what is going on! But do no misuse he founder-claim to increase the impact of your comments. Xi&#39;Reney 23:11, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I admit that very basic issues have not been considered in the beginnings making logical argumentation for "canon" complicated now. But the reason was mainly the fun we had in creating this world rathern being ignorant for means... If I would have thought for a moment in all infrastucutre and transport issues (hey, I studied that:) ..


 * Let me respond with a simple point....history. If we look at a similar but BY COMPARISON much less destructive event, i.e. World War-II, it is true that it gave rise to the United Nations and other co-operative international bodies, like the EU. However, it should also be noted that it did little to eliminate war, and as noted in the ATL, the possibility of even an accidental nuclear holocaust. So why is it that we would believe that human behavior would so completely and radically alter after "Doomsday", given it didn't after WW-2?
 * This seems a bit like the thought behind "Star Trek: First Contact", in which it was presupposed that contact with aliens would "change everything" "eliminating poverty, war, disease" by simple virtue of contact with an extraterrestrial species. Human behavior isn't that simplistic. Nor international bodies or governance that easy.
 * Also, I stand by my claim that a lot of "inter-connectivity" has been ignored. Primarily, the loss of VAST amounts of industrialization in the USA, Europe, the old Soviet Union, Japan, etc. And the loss of that would result in SERIOUS technological (at the least) as well as economic development in Australia and South America.Gblack61 18:48, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Gblack61, may I ask a question? I saw this on Scribd and was wondering if thiswas your original vision for the timeline. BrianD 01:54, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it. Obviously, again, can't prove anything to any satisfaction, but I based my althist on a story I heard on Discovery or History Channel or possibly Dateline (don't remember which) about the "close calls" during the Cold War and Stanislav Petrov.Gblack61 18:33, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Understood. Did the television documentaries postulate how things would have developed after the exchange, or did you have to go elsewhere to help you develop that particular part of the scenario?BrianD 15:00, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Random sources, including obviously "On The Beach" (though not as "end of all life" as Shute's novel and the movies), "The Day After", "By Dawn's Early Light", and general projections of a total nuclear war. One thing I DID miss was Reagan being in New York, not DC on "Doomsday". I also didn't think of he and Bush-41 landing in Hawaii before continueing onto Australia.Gblack61 20:48, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If I recall rightly there was quite a discussion here regarding the On the Beach influence, at least for the voyage of the Benjamin Franklin. Day After was an influence on me, specifically in regards to an article I wrote on a nurse at Kansas University who survived DD. BrianD 21:44, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody over 35 who remembers the original airing of "The Day After" can forget it. It has been theorized that seeing that movie, is what changed Reagan's hawkish stance pre-1984 to a more fervant desire to reduce nuclear weapons. What needs to be remememberd about "On the Beach" is...that the radioactivity that covers the entire Earth and eventually kill the survivors in Australia, was not realistic. Shute had to create "cobalt" bombs that had enormously long half-life and corresponding fall-out. Such is not the case, nor was the case in the late 1950s certainly when he wrote his book. Gblack61




 * 18:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC)







Oregon
According to the Survivalring site listing the primary/secondary/tertiary strikes and such, the only Primary/secondary strike sites are Portland, and two decomissioned air force stations(Mt Hebo was closed in 72, Adair was closed in 69). With only a single strike that would have done any damage, and the state government safe in Salem, I don't see why Oregon would have crumbled. Just bringing it up because the existence of the state of Oregon would likely affect the history of several nearby nations such as the MCP, Utah, Victoria, Pasco, etc.Oerwinde 18:18, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Damm, I was hoping that the two other cities would have been hit, as I was planning for Portland to become (eventually) the NAU's major naval base on the West Coast. But it is not to be. Consulting my atlas, I think that East Oregon would have become independent, then joining the PUSA, while West Oregon (with the exception of those cities that join the MSP) becomes part of the APA for a while (in the space of time they knew of the MSP) before becoming the "Republic of Pacifica" or something. What do you think?HAD 06:24, June 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I personally question why it would split at all. Hence why I brought it up in this section. With the state government surviving, and with the national guard surviving in the state, Oregon would pretty much be the most stable area in all of the continental US. Southern Oregon wouldn't be in the state it was to form the MSP. The MSP likely wouldn't exist, northern California would just be part of Oregon now. They would have easily fought off any Spokane forces with an actual trained military force, which would have affected developments in Utah. Its a pretty big issue.Oerwinde 10:18, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, the MSP could just exist as a stronger union than what it currently is. I'm going to write up a proposal for this "stronger" union between Oregon and Utah, although no names come to mind. Any ideas? Arstarpool 21:09, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oregon and Utah? You mean Oregon and California? I would expect that the authors of Utah would be non to pleased with that, just sayin'. GOPZACK 00:56, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Your assuming that just because Salem was not hit that the state government would be able to survive amid massive famine, spreading diseases, refugee hordes, fallout, no contact with the federal government and the collapse of the global economy. Furthermore the history of the MSP has been part of canon since the beginning. Why is it so hard to believe that people would make the wrong decisions after Doomsday and fail? Also consider the fact that Portland is less than 50 miles from Salem. Is it possible that Salem fell apart due to violence like so many other cities that have been written into canon. Why suddenly must canon change now? Is it really that fundamental an issue that dozens of article must change? -Mitro
 * Yes, it is "Mitro". Wyoming managed to escape disaster even when its' capital was nuked. Other states have managed to do the same. But with Oregon, an area which was only lightly attacked with only one metro area destroyed, it is possible that such said area would become host to the opposite of what happened with the APA attempt in the area. This is, in fact, a MAJOR ISSUE. If already at least 3 states managed to survive with their capitals, then a fourth one may change much of which is established as canon. Arstarpool 04:00, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just figure, if other states survive being nuked into oblivion, why wouldn't Oregon, with only the northernmost point hit with anything thats going to do any real damage, and with a fully functional government and national guard unit, in other words likely the best equipped state to deal with the crisis afterwards, be able to survive? And with the Portland metro area having 2/3rds of the state's population, and the rest of the state being mostly rural, famine shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm not saying its not possible for the state to collapse, its just not as likely as Hawaii or Alaska. Oerwinde 08:18, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * As of now, the states that "survived being nuked to oblivion" are: Vermont, Maine, Wyoming, Alaska, Hawaii, West Virginia, Virginia (disputed), and now Oregon. If you look at where these states are on a map, you will see that all except for Wyoming are near another state, or West Virginia if you don't believe the crap Yank said about Richmond surviving. It is likely that these states would have formed bi-state unions than just collapsing. As for Oregon, the nuking of Portland would problably save the entire state from starvation, since the population drop would leave enough food for almost the entire state. I know that the question has been raised before: "Why didn't they just stay together as the US?" With Oregon relatively near Wyoming, Alaska, and in a way Hawaii, and with Vermont and Maine being only a state apart, that may very well be possible. Arstarpool 17:44, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * As of now, the states that "survived being nuked to oblivion" are: Vermont, Maine, Wyoming, Alaska, Hawaii, West Virginia, Virginia (disputed), and now Oregon. If you look at where these states are on a map, you will see that all except for Wyoming are near another state, or West Virginia if you don't believe the crap Yank said about Richmond surviving. It is likely that these states would have formed bi-state unions than just collapsing. As for Oregon, the nuking of Portland would problably save the entire state from starvation, since the population drop would leave enough food for almost the entire state. I know that the question has been raised before: "Why didn't they just stay together as the US?" With Oregon relatively near Wyoming, Alaska, and in a way Hawaii, and with Vermont and Maine being only a state apart, that may very well be possible. Arstarpool 17:44, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * As of now, the states that "survived being nuked to oblivion" are: Vermont, Maine, Wyoming, Alaska, Hawaii, West Virginia, Virginia (disputed), and now Oregon. If you look at where these states are on a map, you will see that all except for Wyoming are near another state, or West Virginia if you don't believe the crap Yank said about Richmond surviving. It is likely that these states would have formed bi-state unions than just collapsing. As for Oregon, the nuking of Portland would problably save the entire state from starvation, since the population drop would leave enough food for almost the entire state. I know that the question has been raised before: "Why didn't they just stay together as the US?" With Oregon relatively near Wyoming, Alaska, and in a way Hawaii, and with Vermont and Maine being only a state apart, that may very well be possible. Arstarpool 17:44, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

The government of Virginia mentioned in the Jerry Farwell wasn't the pre-DD state government, but a rather weak confederation of city-states in the western part of the state. And as far as I'm concerned, wether Richmond survives or not doesn't affect canon at all. It's a non-issue.

Yankovic270 18:09, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that Yank. Arstarpool 19:09, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

How about more of the State being hit? I mean, perhaps a few Soviet bombers got through and realising their intented targets had been destroyed, they destroyed other cities instead.HAD 19:26, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

The (Soon to be) Death of 1983: Doomsday
Has anyone else noticed that the Map Games have driven out many, if not all of the people that used to edit 1983: Doomsday? It's getting to the point where almost nothing is being edited in relations to this timeline. Arstarpool 23:48, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Tell me what to do and I'll help revive 1983, I've never done it before but I want to try if it's not too late.ProfessorMcG 00:36, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

It's not dead, we're just losing active contributers by the day. It peaked, like the Map Games eventually will. It used to be the number one most edited article, and then Catherine950 wrote about her control over Europe 1430 Map Game and everyone went like "Oh, Map Games!" and now it is only the third most edited article, third to the damn Map Games. Arstarpool 00:51, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

I don`t think we`re really losing that many active contributors to the Map Games. I haven`t been too active outside the discussion pages for a while because I lost my enthusiasm. I do that for everything I do. Yank has still been pretty active. The problem is a lot of the more active guys have disappeared for various reasons, like Mr X, Mitro, etc. And ProfessorMcG, like your science of radioactive survivors idea, more articles that deal with topics other than nations would be awesome.Oerwinde 07:29, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * With me, it has been a couple of other time lines that have taken my attention away from DD, but I still visit occasionally. Divided attention is not good for us "ADD" types! Yesterday, though, I plotted all the listed DD strikes in the USA and posted the map at Doomsday (1983: Doomsday). In OTL, primary elections are setting the stage for November's midterm election. In TTL that means some governorships will be changing in the nation-states. In my main article I made the "governor" to serve concurrent with the former US presidency, so I won't be making major changes just yet. I will, though, have to get to work on the time line leading up to the present.


 * And about the map games -- not for me! I find the scenarios waaayyy too contrived. SouthWriter 13:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I started one map game to see what it was like, and aparently its the most popular one out there. I originally was going to make a 1983: Doomsday map game, but that would be cheesy,so I made a Cold War one. I myself find it pretty boring. All you do is write down implausible gibberish and edit a map. Wheeee...that sounds like fun. Arstarpool 14:25, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Their are still people carrying the flame! And I bet Mitro will come back.HAD 16:14, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Flame Carriers Unite! Mitro will come back in August, but supposedly he still edits around here on an anonymous username. Arstarpool 17:23, June 22, 2010 (UTC)