Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

=Resources=

Archives

 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2

Algorithm Template
Because the current algorithm looks like s***, I've taken it upon myself to do the players a favor and create an algo template that is more becoming of a map game of PMIII's caliber. Enjoy. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:40, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Nation One (Attacker)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Nation Two (Defender)
Total: 0
 * Location: 0
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: 0 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 0
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. ''' Hey, Scan! First, thanks for being an awesome map-maker! I know that it is really tough work, but you do a great job. I just wanted to let you know what to make the Mamluk Sultanate look like, so I will post a picture of all of our vassals and realms, then post explained changes, and finally expansion amounts. Expansion amounts... 32,500 sq km. for Makuria and Alodia (to the east first, then to the south). 50,000 sq km for Ifat (to the east). Mogadishu 30,000 sq km (to the north). Mesopotamia, 10,000 sq km towards Syria. Yemen (when it was under Will) also grew 50,000 sq km (towards Oman, then north).
 * Makuria and Alodia are both vassals.
 * Mombasa and Mogadishu are puppets.
 * Ifat and Socotra (which includes all Red Sea islands) are vassals.
 * Mecca is a vassal, as is Yemen and Oman (after the recent war).
 * Cicilia (Karaman+Ramazan+Tekke) is a vassal.
 * Jalayirid (Mesopotamia) is in a personal union under the Mamluk Sultan. Mosul is a vassal of Mesopotamia, and Baghdad was annexed by mod event.
 * The Levantine states (including Damascus) were added back into the Sultanate by mod event, and Medina was incorporated into the Sultanate proper.

Once again, thank you! 10:47, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

So my expansion into jaffna wasn't added and the wrong vassal was taken. Should be Venad Jbwncster (talk) 18:39, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jaffna is a stable state and thus expansion into it means war. And my apologies about the wrong state. Scandinator (talk) 08:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, Scand. Not near half of my vassals were added to map. In addition, none of my territorial expansion, which has been cleared by mods and trigerred by real migrations and settling of Bedouins, has not been taken into account. I would like it if the map was updated so that it would be considered proper for my nation. To do this, you need to combine Tekke, Karaman, and Ramazan to form Cicilia, annex Medina to the Sultanate, show puppets in Mogadishu and Mombasa (as well as 30k sq km of Mogadishan expansion), add Ifat and its expansion, show the expansion of both Nubian states, and show vassalization/expansion of Mecca and Mosul. Thank you, 21:10, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dean gave me the ok to fix the map, which I did. 21:34, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I (Bavaria) vassalized Ingolstadt as of 1415. Would that apply to this map, or is it only changes from 1410 - 1414? Cookiedamage (talk) 21:41, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No.Since it was in 1415, you have to wait until 1420.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:19, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks! Cookiedamage (talk) 05:30, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Same problems as last time.

21:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't do anything about the colours at the present time. My apologies, there are simply too many nations. Scandinator (talk) 08:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Novgorod's expansion is still wrong, in fact the new map made it even worse. It's supposed to look something like this: (Note I didn't count the number of pixels here, this is just an example. Mscoree (talk) 22:16, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * My apologies I assumed it was via the OTL Finnic border as Finland does not exist at the present time. I shall fix it next map. Scandinator (talk) 08:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

The Kanem look just wrong.The same goes for the Darfur.too many straight lines.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:56, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did what I could :L Scandinator (talk) 08:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

My qeury was not answered. Will the nations of Munster, Ulster, and England share the sam colour now that we are in Union. In PM II Callum and I were two member states of a like union but shared the same colour.Bowties are Cool (talk) 19:48, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * They will not, They can have a red border for territories within the union.

The map is not showing the napolitan anexation of the papal states, and aslo piombino. Dukajini is part of zeta now, and the island controled by bizantium are not in his colours Quashi (talk) 05:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC) The nation of Munster does not have any vassals, but the map shows this. Please remove the lines dividing the old states that Munster now encompasses. Bow To Your Sensei. BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!
 * It will be on the next map. This is for events that occured prior to 1414. Scandinator (talk) 08:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is how must look the lands of Naples and Provence
 * Naples_and_Provence..png

Knights Hospitaller should now control the following territory:



Mscoree (talk) 22:08, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Cultural
This map, made by Reximus, shows the rough cultural divides that make up the Principia Moderni III universe.

Note rough, this image is far from perfect, but attempts (I feel effectively) to convey the different cultures within the PM3 world.


 * Dark Brown - North American
 * Light Brown - South American
 * Dark Red - Central African
 * Red - Southern Africa
 * Light Green - Arab
 * Dark Green - Turkish
 * Light Yellow - Mongol
 * Yellow - East Asian
 * Olive Green - Indian
 * Teal Blue - Indonesian
 * Dark Purple - Greek
 * Light Purple - Slavic
 * Dark Blue - Celtic
 * Light Pink - German
 * Dark Pink - Scandinavian
 * Red-Pink - British
 * Light Blue - Italian
 * Perwinkle - French
 * Blue - Iberian

Why is Bulgaria turkish? They were an indepentent nation with a long history until 1396, only a short time before our start date, surely they are still Bulgarian culturaly? (Yes I get that the balkans are a pain to map because of the different cultural groups, but it is an important distinction)Stephanus rex (talk) 04:11, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Because this map doesn't take into account individual areas, just the countries as a whole.A map with individual cultural areas would be endlessly complicated.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 11:01, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how to classify Mangut Nivkhgu - the base culture is Paleosiberian (Nivkh is a language isolate) - but I'm guiding the Nivkhs to adopt East Asian customs. Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:34, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Religious
Another unofficial map by Reximus, this map shows the primary religion of the state. Again, this is roughly sketched from what I think the world's religions looked like in 1400. Feel free to re-color your state(s), but please do not add colors to the map.

A color key!


 * Red - Animist, Pagan, or Other
 * Green - Islam (No Shiite/Sunni distinction made)
 * Yellow - Catholic
 * Orange - Orthodox
 * Blue - Hindu
 * Purple - Shinto
 * Mustard - Buddhist

Mangut Nivkhgu (Nivkhia) has become Buddhist. -Commandante Lemming (talk) 18:32, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Can we do a catholic politics distiction? like show who follows which pope? Jaumet (talk)

We don't even need a map.only Aragon, Cyprus and Provence follow the Avignon Antipope.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:44, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Ermm, the Middle East is almost entirely Sunni Muslim, save for Azeria/Azerbaijan (Shia), Georgia (Orthodox), and Trebizond and Sinope (Orthodox). It was probably just a mistake. ChrisL123 (talk) 22:07, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Oyo's official religion is Catholicism. Most of the educated population follow the Church, while a considerable portion stick to the older animistic beliefs. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 01:10, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

=General Discussion=

Yemen (Attacker)

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage : 1
 * Nations: Yemen (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 14/14=1
 * Economy: 10/10=1
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 777
 * UTC time: 12:40=8
 * Chance: 777/7*pi=305.127186
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: 3
 * Age: -5
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 7
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * 30*1.25=37.5

Mamluk Sultanate (Defender)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage : 5
 * Nations: Mamluks (L): 4/4 = 1
 * Military: 14/14=1 
 * Economy: 10/10=1+5=6
 * Infrastructure: 6
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 3969
 * UTC time: 12:40=8
 * Chance: 3969/7*pi = = 1558.62266
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 8 (Defend) + 4 (Sipported Gov) +5 (High Morale) = 17
 * Age: 5
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Participation: 10
 * Population: 8+10 = 18
 * Vassals & Puppets: *1.25
 * 87*1.25=108.75

Results
If results stand, the defending Mamlukean army can overthrow the Yemeni government in 2 years. (I have yet to decide what to do with Will. I may just repulse the attack and not carry on.)
 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((137.5/(37.5+137.5))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.5714*(1-1/(2(2))
 * 0.4286

Discussion
Yeah for the sake of not killing people off and the sanity of the middle east not becomming the way the HRE and central europe was, you maintained your honor, you drove them off, i dont see any reason to carry on really.

Yes I agree with Feudal.

01:42, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Can I switch my nation to Cyprus
Oct is threatening mp about killing his nation and stuff and it is getting stupid and annoying. If I can switch my nation to Cyprus then I can stop this and oct can get banned out of the game. - Shadow

What in hell are you trying to say? Oct is trying to kill MP's nation so you want to switch to Cyprus so that Oct will be banned? How does that sequence of event even occur?

17:50, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I believe Genoa was conquered, Oct is playing as a government in exile in Cyprus at the moment, and now he wants to switch to Cyprus itself. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Oct is to implausable and wants to take out mp who is a very good map game player. So by me switching my nation I can kick oct of getting the nation he wants. - Shadow

That's umm, no, that's not fair to Oct. Also, you already have a nation.

20:54, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I want to switch my nation. - Shadow

Nooooooooooo. I keep telling you this.

23:08, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Wow shadow spreading rumors to switch nations, if I was LG I would be like "Two Weeks to think about it". Than ban you. OCT MARIUS, HAIL HIM

Florence

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Florence (L), Siena (LV), Pisa (LV), Modena (LV), Sovana (MV), Roman Empire (L), Naples (L), Swiss Con (L) = 28/19= 1
 * Military: 78/50= 1
 * Florence: 14
 * Siena: 10
 * Pisa: 8
 * Modena: 4
 * Sovana: 0
 * Roman Empire:14
 * Naples:14
 * Swiss con: 14
 * Total: 78
 * Economy: 78/52= 1
 * Florence: 14
 * Siena: 10
 * Pisa: 8
 * Modena: 4
 * Sovana: 0
 * Roman Empire:14
 * Naples:14
 * Swiss Con: 14
 * Total: 78
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: (Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed): + 7 x 8= 56
 * Chance: (2931/15)*pi= 613.8 6 2= 6
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Wars: 0
 * Vassals/Puppets: -4
 * Result: 102

Savoy

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Savoy (L) Piombino (MV) Dodecanese (MV) Provence (L) Anjou (MV), Avignon (S) = 16/24= 0
 * Military: 50/64= 0
 * Savoy: 10
 * Piombino: 8
 * Dodecanese: 4
 * Provence: 14
 * Anjou: 14
 * Avignon: 0
 * Total: 50
 * Economy: 52/64= 0
 * Savoy: 12
 * Piombino: 8
 * Dodecanese: 4
 * Provence: 14
 * Anjou: 14
 * Avignon: 0
 * Total: 52
 * Expansion: -1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack) 9 + (aiding ally) 5 = 14
 * Chance:(53/15)*pi= 11.099966 = 9
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals: -3
 * Result: 65

Results

 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((102/(65+102))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.22155*(1-1/(2(2))
 * 0.165 = 16.5% = 16.5%

Discussion
Corrected the algorythm.Just because you can say you update military and economy in a same turn, does not mean that both will be counted in the algorythm.either one counts or the other.The motive was also done wrong.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:24, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Algo needs to be updated following the entry of the Swiss into the war. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 19:35, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

add me in too. Spartian300 (talk) 20:42, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, since the war appears to be concluded, unless others join in, let us now begin the treaty provisions of the war. Any objections? "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:12, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Fine by me Quashi (talk) 23:25, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Roman Proposal: Other proposals will be considered. If this is too harsh (and I know it can be), let me know proposed changes.
 * Savoy shall yield the Duchy of the Dodecanese to the Roman Empire.
 * Savoy shall yield the Duchy of Piombino to Naples.
 * Savoy shall cease any and all claims on Cyprus or Montferrat, and also Savoyard influence shall not pass into Greece or the Eastern Med.
 * Savoy will not imped Neapolitan diplomats or donations to other nations, save for those that enter Savoyard territory.
 * Savoy will turn over its trade fleet to Naples, its military fleet to the Roman Empire.
 * Savoy will turn over Swiss land to the Confederacy.
 * Florence will receive reparations for damages in the war. Small amounts of territory can also be ceded to Florence, in a way that Florence and Savoy can jointly decide.
 * There will be a 15 year truce between all signers of this treaty.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:54, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I feel like I got ripped off bit time in my own war. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 00:47, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I hate to point out this fact, Crimson, but our victory was not total, and without our help, you would have lost. If you want, I can transfer their naval fleet to you, unless Naples objects. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * The algorithm had been botched. I would have won. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 05:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all Quashi (talk) 00:19, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

None of his vassals would technically be leaders unless he stated that they were leaders in the game. This point was made very clear last game. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 01:06, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I will accept the Roman proposal if all of you give me a 15 years truce. --Zengu (talk) 04:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, knew I was forgetting something. That was part of it. Done deal then. "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 05:02, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Done Quashi (talk) 05:10, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Naples

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Naples (L), Genoa (LV), Corsica (LV), Mantua (LV), Ferrara (LV), Zeta (LV) = 19/4 = 4.75 = 5
 * Military: 74/12= 6
 * Naples: 14
 * Genoa: 10
 * Corsica: 10
 * Mantua: 14
 * Ferrara: 14
 * Zeta: 12
 * Total: 74
 * Economy: 74/12= 6
 * Naples: 14
 * Genoa: 10
 * Corsica: 10
 * Mantua: 14
 * Ferrara: 14
 * Zeta: 12
 * Total: 74
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: (Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed): + 7 x 5 +  (troop morale) 5 x 5= 35 + 25 = 60
 * Chance: (392/64)*pi=19.241 = 4
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Wars: -1
 * Vassals/Puppets: -5
 * Result: 117

Rome

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Rome (L) 4/19 = 0
 * Military: 12/74= 0
 * Economy: 12/74= 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack) 9 (troops morale) - 10 = -1
 * Chance:(428/64)*pi=21.008 = 0
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals: 0
 * Result: 35

Results

 * ((y/(z+y))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * ((117/(35+117))*2)-1*(1-1/(2x))
 * 0.769736*(1-1/(2(1))
 * 0.38 = 38%

Discussion
After 1 year of war, the Pope is held in the Vatican City and forced to abdicate his position. Thus begins the search for a new Pope who is at the level of the post, and to bring all believers to a new church. Quashi (talk) 22:01, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

With the pope(s) deposed, I hope that we can meet at the Council of Constance and elect a sole one. Mscoree (talk) 22:06, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly Quashi (talk) 22:16, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

You're forgetting the vassals of the Papal States, who will undoubtedly help their master. CrimsonAssassin - I have special eyes 00:37, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

This seems flawed to me. Also, ShadowKnight is Naples right? I think he is doing this cause he hates me.Spartian300 (talk) 08:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

No, the last turn he annex all his vassals, so is only Rome Quashi (talk) 00:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Solution to the Russian Question.
Why you Don't Bring a Razor to a Guns Fight

Russia (Attacker)
Total: 39*1.25 ~ 48.75 ~ 49
 * Location: 15
 * Muscovy: 10
 * Novgorod: 20
 * Tver: 10
 * Pskov: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1 (attacker)
 * Nations: Muscovy (L) Novgorod (L), Tver (L), Pskov (L), Ukraine (MV), Pereslavl-Ryazanski (MV) = 20 + 4/6, 20.66/7 ~ 2.9 ~ 3
 * Military Development: 36/14 ~ 2.5 ~ 3
 * Muscovy: 11
 * Novgorod: 13
 * Pskov: 6
 * Tver: 6
 * Economic Development: 40/14 ~  2.8 ~ 3
 * Muscovy: 8
 * Novgorod: 10
 * Pskov: 14
 * Tver: 8
 * Expansion: -8
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 11 (Econ, Support, morale)
 * Chance: 9
 * Edit count: 453
 * UTC: 11:13= 6
 * Total: 453/6*(3.14159265359) = 237.190245346
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Muscovy: Maturing, 0
 * Novgorod: Maturing, 0
 * Pskov: 0
 * Tver: 0
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Moscovy: -4
 * Novgorod: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: 41-2 (Ukraine, Ryazan)*1.25

Golden Horde (Previously UNC) (Defender)
Total: 62
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (capital)
 * Nations: UNC (LW), Golden Horde (L), Schleswig (MVW) Holstein (MVW)  Perm (MV) Bremen (MVW) Lubeck (MVW) = 7 + 0
 * Military Development: 14, 0
 * G-H: 14
 * Economic Development: 14, 0
 * G-H: 14
 * Expansion: -6
 * Infrastructure: 8
 * Motive: 8 (Defending heartland)
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 6804
 * UTC: 11:13 = 6
 * Total: 6804/6*(3.14159265359) = 3562.56606917
 * Nation Age: 5
 * G-H: 5 (mature)
 * Population: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1 (Great Perm)

Result
((62/(49+62))*2)-1 = 0.11711711711

(0.11711711711)*(1-1/(2(6)) = 0.10735735735

Discussion
The UNC will take 15% of Novgorod, including the city itself.

The G-H will take 5% of Muscovy.

PEACE I'M OUT I'M GUNS

23:23, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

No. Guns, you can't just decide unileteraly that you dont like that Russia is fighthing against you and you are now loosing, so you decide to delete them and post them on another algorithm. THat is not how life works. be of going away now, you are not fighting with the golden horde, they are fighting their own war, not yours, you have nothing to do with the G-H, and you cannot just remove them from the algorithm because you want to win. This is very infantile behavior-Lx (leave me a message) 23:55, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

It was actually decided by the moderators that there would be different algorithms for each region, sort of like different theatres of battles, for plausibility reasons. They are all basically part of the same war, just divided into certain areas. I will work to fix this algorithm. Mscoree (talk) 04:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * And we will also let Guns edit. Only to keep it fair. :) [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course. Mscoree (talk) 14:43, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Added all my vassals. Sorry, forgot to yesterday.
 * Anyway, still a victory. By quite a margin. May I enquire how the fuck Tver is leading in this war?
 * 18:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * You guys do realize that by doing this you are esentialy giving Guns an advantage because it is like he is not fighting two fronts, and that one has NO impact WHATSOEVER on the other?-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 20:07, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

So nope. So utterly nope.

Anyway, things to fix: Since 2 nations are on the UNC side, the maximum ammount of Development turns counted should be 30(the total should add to 30), there are 13 and 9 in military and economic, that adds to 22 turns...another 8 for saami expansion...that gets to 30...the maximum...and then you add 7 for infrastructure bringing the total over the limit to 37...Also, we should define "heartland" as I do not believe that Finland, into which Russia is invading the UNC, does not seem like a "heartland". Anyway, pskov was de-facto independant since 1328 anbd even when moscow appointed their Namestnik for like what, one year, the veche still held power, the namestnik was simply the veche did not chose the prince, no real change in the legislative capacity...anyway if that counts as recent change of gov. pskov gets +5, also, why does muscovy and novgorod have odd score is military or economic... since those each turn gives you 2...same with the G-H and UNC scores, they are odd numbers...anyway, TL:DR odd numbers need to be fixed, UNC side development scores need to be fixed(either remove infrastructure or fix the military/economic) and the question: Since there was minimal governement change(in terms of legislative body, the onily change is how the comparatively weak Head of State is chosen) since pskov's de facto independance from Novgorod was in 1328, does 1328(instead of the treaty that formaly recognized and granted Pskov de jure aswell as de facto indpependance in 1348?) count as "Governement change" therefore granting pskov a +5 in age.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:14, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I have just found out today that I'm still in the war with the Golden Horde in this algo. However, I have also noticed that the UNC has collapsed and is in a civil war (Denmark and Norway vs Sweden). Due to their domestic issues, should the UNC be taken out of the algo? I am only asking moderators and players not affiliated in the war due to keep out bias opinions. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Yea for the sake of it all the UNC did collapse and there really isnt any way for them to continue a war as i bet the unified army started killing eachother or would be more worried about going home to their respective countries. Just my two cents but seriously most nations pull out of wars when the collapse.. IE Russian empire in WW1

I agree. The UNC is dead.--Yank 02:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

That is how coalition algos work, apparently.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 02:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

These are my calculations, correct me if I'm wrong. Fed (talk) 03:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

so what does any of this actualy mean? and does Russia get to take UNC/Swedish/Danish/Norwegian territory, considering that Russia started fighting them in the first place?-Lx (leave me a message) 04:44, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kono confussion
The daimyo of Kono dies, and his daughter, who is married to the Hosokawa ruler, is forced to give her lands to her husband, merging the two Daimyos under the Hosokawa.

This is what the mod event states, yet Kono is a vassal according to the nations list.

Kono (Vassal of Hosokawa)

I'm not sure if this is correct, maybe I'm wrong. But I think I'm literally controlling Kono, why can't I integrate into my daimyo?

Don't forget to sign your posts.

Normally, it would take ten turns for a vassal to merge with its liege nation. If this is in fact what the mod event says, and the Kono Daimyo has no heirs, then I guess it wouldn't be too far fetched of an idea.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 15:25, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ulster (Attacker)
Total: 46.25
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Ulster (L), Munster (S), England (S) Wales (S) =
 * Military Development: 15/5=3
 * Economic Development: 15/5=3
 * Expansion: -10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5
 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 1440
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +5, +2 = 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 37*1.25

Breifne (Defender)
Total: 37.5
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Nations: Breifne (L) = 4, 0
 * Military Development: +5. 0
 * Economic Development: +5,0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: +9
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: +
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 30*1.25

Result

 * ((71/(125))*2)-1 = 0.136
 * (13.6)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 6.8

Discussion
Probably wrong. Can someone fix it?

We are all union members so wales, England and Desmond should be thereBowties are Cool (talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Munster (Attacker)
Total: 111
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Munster (L), Ulster (S), England (S) = 8
 * Military Development: +8
 * Economic Development: +18
 * Expansion: +0
 * Infrastructure: +1
 * Motive: Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5, Economic +3
 * Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Troop Morale High + 5
 * Results=17
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 960
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=18 (10:36 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 167.5 5 1608191
 * Chance= +5
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +5, +2 = 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Thomond (Defender)
Total: 85
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (Capital in Central Region)
 * Nations: Thomond (L) = 4
 * Military Development: +8
 * Economic Development: +10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: +5
 * Motive: +9 (Defending heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Non-Dem government supported by people +4
 * Troop Morale low -5
 * Total: +8
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 960
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=18 (10:36 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 167.55 1 608191
 * Chance= 1
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: +0
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result
((111/(85+111))*2)-1=0.13265306122

(0.13265306122)*(1-1/(2*4))

0.11607142856

Discussion
Finished! Finally! Need a mod to review it. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

MS is killing PM3
Thanks to the delusions of grandeur from one MScoree PM3 is going the way of the dodo quicker than PM2, proving that the worst enemy to map games is a corrupt mod.
 * 1) He clearly uses his position as a mod and player to galvanise his nations grip on the HRE and is doing ASB things to try and ensure it is his own little kingdom to rule.
 * 2) He is manipulating algorithms and is making the war with the UNC and its allies and their allies (that's where I come in) biased in his favour all because he is terrified of losing. The whole splitting up the algorithm defeats the point of coalition wars and is coming across (whether it originally was intended or not) as a way for MS to have the HRE fight with their full power three different groups of opponents.
 * 3) He is deliberately manipulating people, telling people lies and making promises he can't keep and is even threatening people. I've been told he has threatened new players such as the player of the Swiss Confederacy.

He has even stooped so low as to force a unification event on the player of Bayern-Landshut (who didn't want nor agree to it but now clearly feel stuck), which is completely ASB, to weaken the UNC side in the coalition war.

All these three things are harming the game. They are harming what should be a map game with minimal conflict, they are harming the community of the map game and just making people argue and they are harming the reputation of moderation concerning the map game. Of course some people are going to have a breakdown over certain things that happen but what is currently happening is threatening to kill PM3 in its crib or severely cripple it into the future.

MS must be removed as a mod. Final. End of.

Giving him a chance has already been done and he has continued to abuse powers.

If there are any mods out there I suggest you deal with this before it really does implode. Kunarian TALK 17:49, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

This very turn we just had a moderator event that weakened the Holy Roman Empire. I'm not terrified of losing, in fact it is clear that we did not win the algorithm and I am fine with that. The splitting up the algorithm was Fed's idea, and agreed upon by several moderators and a bunch of other people. It is done for plausibility since in the early 1400's it makes no sense to have a giant multi-alliance coalition war. Venice has no relations with Scandinavia, except that they are co-belligerents, and so on. It should also be noted that me or the HRE is not even in all of the algorithms, so it' not like we're just dividing one side, but rather we are dividing everyone into a specific theatre of war. Whether or not I'm manipulating people in game is kind of irrelevant since in-game kings and rulers will manipulate eachother. It's not like people didn't threaten each other in real life. Also Switzerland and I are allies who are working together, and Dae isn't exactly new here. I didn't write the unification event for Bavaria, Dean did, who has no interest in this area. I was actually the one who contested all of those events and questioned their plausibility. I hope that helped to clear some things up. Mscoree (talk) 18:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that MS, you are not the one to do such things. And justifying being destructive to the game by saying "in-game kings and rulers will manipulate eachother". IN GAME IS VERY DIFFERENT TO OUT OF GAME. Concerning my war that I am part of with Bavaria and the UNC. How come Bavaria can fight a war in the north but I can't? How come Bavaria called me into the war but I have to fight a separate front? Kunarian TALK 18:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was in the mod page when the event about Bavaria was created.Mscoree wasn't even there when it happened.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:31, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe you are in two wars currently. Mscoree (talk) 18:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. I am in one, you are trying to manipulate things to be your way however. Kunarian TALK 19:40, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Splitting up the algo helped us, in a way.

But we won both regardless. 16% in the HRE, undisputed, and 14% in Russia, not yet confirmed.

18:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

All the things you mentioned tend to help you more than they help ms. Tr0llis (talk) 18:17, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

For

 * Cour *talk* PMII_Mayan_Flag.pngCaborr_Flag.png 20:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC) Sorry to do this, but it is a constant issue. We can't afford to have this kind of leadership in the game.
 * Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 21:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC) Ms is a hell of a guy and I want him on the mod team. I really do. However, the amount of times this has come into question makes me believe that he may not necessarily be the right choice at this time. In my opinion, these mod votes should have been based on unanimous decision anyway.
 * Fed (talk) 14:14, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Stop removing Scraw. He is a mod. This is borderline cheating.

Against
05:22, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sims -The Rainbow Machete Piq 28524 400x400.png
 * Scandinator (talk) 05:37, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 17:28, February 22, 2014 (UTC) Make it stop, for the love of god. End the damn feuds.

Abstain
(Meaning you forefit your right to vote)

Discussion
Scraw, you are not a mod, as it states, you are ONLY A MAPMAKER, therefor you may and cannot vote in the mod section of this impeachment. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Crim, you voted twice.i had to remove one of the duplicates.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. Signed name after the commentary by accident. Thanks for catching that. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 13:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

For

 * Thought I voted already.

Against

 * this is stupid, are you guys that disappointed that you're not world empires?
 * NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 20:41, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Razor (talk) 20:42, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tr0llis (talk) 20:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Teh Squirrel (talk) 21:11, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Millgy (talk) 21:22, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mapd00d (talk) 21:31, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Abstain?

 * 06:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Voting is too mainstream.
 * Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog) I never wanted ms as mod, and all the controversy has been constant from the start, but there is no point voting, as the Msgang dominates. Also, what Rex said.

Discuss
For all the reasons I listed above, plus every other one on this page including practically forcing guns to leave. Kunarian TALK 20:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Who is forcing Guns to do anything? You guys are just showing that you people have a vendetta.

Guns beat me in a war, therefore I am forcing him to leave? Mscoree (talk) 20:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I was not aware that player votes had value in these mod impeachments. Either way, I abstain.

Ms, you would not be banned from the game.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 20:21, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Player votes don't count, we just want to see what the general populace thinks. Cour *talk* 20:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Is he being impeached because you're mad at him? You realize how childish that sounds, right? NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Considering this is the third time this issue has come up, it's not just one person. Ms is very polarizing, and it's causing chaos. Cour *talk* 20:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Does Euc even play the game?

20:42, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

If he isn't, then he can't vote. Cour *talk* 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I play as the Electorate of Trier. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Would like to point out that only the Ms gang is opposed to his impeachering..

20:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

^^^

At Cour, honestly certain people just hate ms personally. As long as he is a mod, people who dislike him will find reasons to complain, but so far every single one has been resolved. Tr0llis (talk) 20:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

^ Totally untrue. Nothing has been resolved.

20:53, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * What issue do you have? I'd be happy to resolve it. Mscoree (talk) 20:56, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that every time some one votes similarly to ms and friends the "ms crew" apparently grows. Tr0llis (talk) 20:55, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

It's a coincidence how the entire "Ms crew" voted against impeachment within half an hour of it being posted. Cour *talk* 20:56, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

It's a coincidence that everyone so far against MS voted within a half an hour too. Tr0llis (talk) 20:58, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Because they were, I don't know, on chat at the time? Besides, Ms magically has internet connection back.

20:59, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I just restarted my router and am able to reconnect again. Earlier I was having trouble loading the site.I am not sure about ms but he might be having similar issues. Tr0llis (talk) 21:01, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I thought Ms was the one having connection problems.Cour *talk* 21:02, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

You just added that last part, distinguishing between you and Ms. What's going on? Cour *talk* 21:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I believe more than one person can have internet connectivity problems. Mscoree (talk) 21:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

That's not untrue, but I find it interesting that Euc, speaking as if he were you, had internet problems right after you had them, and then Trollis magically had them while confusing himself with you.

Also, who in hell is Teh Squirrel?

21:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

He's a new user who joined on the 11th. No connection that I see. Cour *talk* 21:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Things are not looking good.While Kunarian seems to have a personal feud against Ms for some reason, Ms's actions continue instigating controversy, which seems to lead to those feuds, and there is also the sockpuppet issue.i'm not saying that you guys are sockpuppets, but you are acting very suspiciously.The only thing you guys did right now was to reiterate things that Ms has already said, or would say, or try to answer to the suspicions.Nothing was proved last time, but, seriously, you are just attracting suspicion to yourselves and Mscoree by now, notwithstanding the fact that four of you five play as electors of the HRE and you four voted for Austria last election.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:39, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, this is insulting. You think I'm a sock puppet of Ms? Do you realize how incredibly ridiculous that sounds?
 * Who said i was talking about you?And i don't remember saying that i think you (Non Euclidean and the last four) are sockpuppets.i'm saying that in light of Mscoree's past accusations of having sockpuppets, you five act in a way that attracts suspicion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Most of the other players have ignored this section or declined to vote at this point, but the overwhelming majority of those who have voted against. Now why is that? Cour *talk* 22:03, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to note that all those nations voted for my ruler in OTL. Also we're in a skype call right now, as Local, NK, and Crim can vouch for. Mscoree (talk) 22:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

And in any case, those votes don't count. The score is currently 2-0 in favor of impeachment.

22:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we need an abstain section, since not voting is basically abstaining. Mscoree (talk) 23:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference. If you vote to abstain, we can have some form of closure, instead of just blatantly not voting. Cour *talk* 23:55, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

The majority of the mod events in the HRE have been done by mods with no connection to it (aka moi). Ms Has done few, if any of the events. In addition he is absolutely correct with the split algorithms, the two fronts are a world away at the time and thus support to one would take months or years from the other. I'm voting against impeachment since Ms contributes heavily on the mod page in discussion and general organisation. Scandinator (talk) 05:37, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

With the insight from Scand, I vote, as a non-mod, who doesn't count for anything, to abstain. I can see both sides of the issue with equal clarity. Ms is definitely alienating me, and I think, people like me who used to be happy to associate with him, by his newfound association with players under 200 edits who claim to be IRL friends. I am curious - does Ms have any of your accounts' passwords?

I also think Ms is a constant source of controversy and that a great deal of this could be avoided should Ms be relegated to just an important nation. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: Important Players should not be Important Mods. A great example of this would be Collie, who is (almost) always neutral. Another would be Scand, who, while controlling powerful states, is unbiased in most all situations. These are players who have moved beyond conquest. Ms wants to unite the HRE, which is an admirable goal, but would place a great deal of possible God-Modding (which NotLAH was infamous for, in the later years) in his hands.

Now, with all that being said, I am abstaining not because I think Ms should remain as a mod, but because I lack all information. Being a regular player w/o access to the mod page, I cannot comment on the level of activity Ms has put forward to make the game better. I can only imagine he has worked hours to better the game in just the first two or so weeks. As a result of an innate respect for most authority, and a lack of complete understanding, which Scand brought up, I hereby abstain. I would urge all non-mod players to do the same, seeing as we lack all vital knowledge which could make a difference. 06:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, the Player Vote is meaningless, right? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)
 * Yes. Kunarian TALK 23:03, February 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * At this point, I would like to state that this impeachment has failed, as it has only garnered a 60% majority, not the 66.6% supermajority required by the rules.\
 * 23:24, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Never the less, the point is made clear. MS MUST be clear and transparent in his actions as mod and should directly avoid further mishaps by large margins. Otherwise I do not think next time he shall have such a close shave. Kunarian TALK 23:31, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * So can we close this vote for good then? Mscoree (talk) 15:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not over until this is resolved Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Can I point out that the vote is not even close to being over. Most of the Mods have not voted, they either need to vote, or abstain, I think. Also, why does it need a supermajority? A majority of the voting Mods are against him. Shouldn't that be enough? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

We have already had the Scraw discussion, further down the page. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Ms and his total Bull
I'm done. I can't deal with his metagaming anymore. Fuck him, and fuck this game. As Oscar Wilde said, either he goes or I do.

19:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Guns we still have 600 years to go. Plenty of time to achieve greatness. Maybe you didn't collapse all of Germany yet, but you still have plenty of time to do so. You don't have to conquer the whole world in a day. You won the war, and be happy about that. Mscoree (talk) 20:11, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, could you please stop acting like you had nothing to do with this? It's not that he won; it's how he won, and tbh, you kind of screwed around a bit,

20:13, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

A bit, my a$$. You're worse than the Caliphate. In 15 days you did what it took the combined efforts of the entire Caliphate over 100.

20:14, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, it's not your fault. Let me put it this way.

All this game has caused is never-ending arguments that make this wiki a nightmare, for me at least.

And since I'm the one who always calls your bullshit, I'm the one who gets flagged as "Anti-Ms", I get flagged as an a$$hole, and I don't want that. Nor do I want to be involved in continual arguments. I use this wiki as a place to relax is free time; having a screaming match with you is not my idea of relaxing.

If I stay here, I will end up calling your BS, so fuck this. I'm done. I'm out of the game and I don't want to argue with you or anyone else over this.

Call me selfish, call me childish, I don't care. I'm done with you, and I'm done with this fucking map game.

20:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I'm the caliphate, given I haven't expanded at all through war (with algorithms) at all. Also I'm the one who can't even go on chat with out having to deal with all caps yelling cursing at me. If you don't want to be flagged as "Anti-MS" then don't make things like this section where you literally say "Fuck him" and " either he goes or I do". Why can't we just end the war. Relax man. (MS asked me to post that) NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:38, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why is Ms speak though Euc?

20:40, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to add the thing at the end. MS is apparently having connection problems and asked me to post for him. NonEuclidean ツ (Talk) 20:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Mm.

20:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, I think we have already proved that they are not sockpuppets. maybe NE left his account logged in on a computer and Ms edited it? Or maybe NE was telling the truth? Now is not the time for insinuations, methinks.

BYE BYE GUNS, GTFO! Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:26, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

And here we see a shining example of the species known as Optmius maximus modimus or Mod the Best and Greatest.

05:31, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Oh do shut up. This is more of a Guns vs Dean issue, not one which concerns mod powers, just as you and I dont get along. Personally i think you are both so up in your own little egos that you cant stand to lose, no matter if in real life or in a petty little map game such as this. If PM3 dies, its becasue of the likes of you. Sims -The Rainbow Machete  05:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Going to warn you once guys - cut the behavior out. Lordganon (talk) 05:50, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Cr*p, I didn't see this. I'm done then. Last comment at the end of this page was posed when I didn't see this. I'll leave it there for reference.

05:52, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dean, you are not helping. Furthermore, I would like to take a chance to defend Scraw. He lost his nation in PM2, and what did he do? He rebuilt. That is more than what I can say about you, after losing your Turkish state. (Ironically, both of you betrayed me, and then were betrayed within 2 weeks). Anyhow, Guns won the war, but was forced into a massive loss via the Treaty of Danzig.

Calling either of them poor losers is not only a personal attack, but also untrue. 06:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Guns won the war by 1% then agreed to a treaty that was basically white peace, as written by Bavaria (who is on his side), then quit before he had a chance to debate it. I too was destroyed in PM2, at the time a small Atlantic city state of a thousand people, and by Collie of all people. Mscoree (talk) 13:28, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I can't recall you playing in PMII.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I played twice. Once as the island nation of Cape Vert that you conquered, and a second time as Nouvelle France. Mscoree (talk) 22:49, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Roman-Neapolitan Coalition (Attacker)
Total: 75*1.25 = 93.75 = 94
 * Location: (15+20)/2=17
 * Tactical Advantage: Attackers Advantage +1, Capital is in a central region in your nation +2, = 3
 * Nations on Side of War: Roman Empire (L), Naples (L) = 8/4= 2 <this should be 4 and shouldn't there be vassals?
 * Military Development: 24/10= 2
 * Roman Empire: 12
 * Naples:12
 * Economic Development: 22/10= 2 <shouldn't this be 28/10 and therefore 3? you round up
 * Roman Empire: 14
 * Naples: 14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: (Political Hegemony) +7 (Morale) +5 (Supp Gov) +4 (Aiding Ally) +5 (Morale) +5 (Supp Gov) +4 = 30/2 = 15 <you don't divide the motive by the other side either this should be an average of the motives of the Roman Empire and Naples
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 6128
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=15 (0:35 UTC)
 * 6128/15*PI= 1282.7 9 46666
 * Chance= 9
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 7 + 10 = 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -7
 * Naples: -2 (Morocco), -2 (Genoa), -1 (Savoy), -1 (Rome) = -6
 * Byzantium: -1 (Savoy) = -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Cyprus (Defender)
Total: 81*1.25 = 101.25 = 101
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 4 (Capital in Central Region, High Ground)
 * Nations: Cyprus (L) = 4/8=0 <this should be 4
 * Military Development: 10/30=0
 * Economic Development: 10/30=0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 5
 * Motive:
 * 9 (Defending heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Non-Dem government supported by people +4
 * Troop Morale High +5
 * Total: 18
 * Chance:
 * Edit count= 2,206
 * nonzero digit in time*nonzero digit in time=15 (0:35 UTC)
 * 960/18*PI= 461.7 8 933333
 * Chance= 8
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6 This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:51, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so a few things need to be changed. I've gone ahead and made the following changes. Thanks, 00:48, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Defender Tact. Adv. - Need to add 2 for High Ground, Nicosia is on the large Cypriot plateau, and has a high elevation. They are also a freaking island, so you are going from 0m to 220m high in a steep march.
 * Defender Mil/Econ/Infra. Dev. - Since Cyprus was a NPC prior to Oct's take over, they get the NPC development bonuses until the first turn Oct played as them (1414).
 * Attacker's Infrastructure - It sounds funny saying that; only defenders get infrastructure.
 * Defender's Motive - They have higher scores in Infrastructure, so Cyprus has everthing needed for High troop morale.


 * Since when you can change other player algo? You are no Mod Rex Quashi (talk) 03:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't see that one coming.

Shouldn't the fact that cyprus is in the middle of vassalization be taken into account somewhere? Jbwncster (talk) 01:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Wow, I really suck at this.

I didn't realize this was a coalition until now, lol.

I should never do algos again.

St. John's needs to be added.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Who is he? Quashi (talk) 03:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

An ally of mine. Someone joined as them today, and apparently noticed this.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Quashi, I am simply correcting many integral errors in your algo. I am also being considered for possible nomination for algo moderator, so there's that. Anyhow, more errors include: So, with a total of 7 years of war between you two, there are 23 years where you could develop econ/mil scores. This amounts to 46 total points, which we can split 22/24.
 * Attacker's Mil/Econ Scores - If 1 year of development is 2 pts, how did you get 15 points each? It would be 14 and 16, but you cannot develop in a war, so that would reduce Naple's scores.
 * Defender's Mil/Econ Scores - The nation of Cyprus expanded its military/econ/infrastructure every year since 1400. It matters not if a player joins; Cyprus still developed every year prior to (and after) Oct's assumption as the new player.
 * Attacker's Motive - The average of your two nations' motives is what your score should represent. Same with Attacker's Location.

Please do not revert back to the old version without explaining the changes back. As far as my knowledge of the algo goes, this is currently accurate... 07:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

This algo is wrong btw... The nations per side score is not divided by the other side. I've highlighted the issues. Kunarian TALK 08:54, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it is divided. The rules say: "The aid scores for both sides will be completed, then the larger side will be divided by the smaller one. The result, rounded to the nearest whole number, will be the number of points the higher scoring side gets on the algorithm. The lower scoring side gets none."--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:02, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's for military aid and supplies. Not for the leaders. Kunarian TALK 10:11, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This makes no sense.After all, it would only encourage everybody who enters to be a leader to avoid this.I attribute your confusion to bad wording of the rule in itself.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:52, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would think that the head mod would understand the algo. Thanks, though, Kun, for your input. 21:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Someone has changed the result of the algo, and as such I have changed it back. The net result would likely not be different, as the current algo neglects the involvement of the Knights of St. John.
 * "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:38, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Vijaynagar (Attacker)

 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Vijaynagar (L), Venad (LV), Bengali (M) 3
 * Military Development: 3/26 = 0
 * Economic Development: 2/30 = 0
 * Expansion: -7
 * Infrastructure: NA
 * Motive: Economic (Gains land, resources, etc): 3
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit count: 174
 * UTC: 8:42 = 64
 * Total: 174/64*pi (3.14159265359) = 2.7 1 875
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: -1
 * Total: 39

Maldivian Defensive Coalition (Defender)

 * Location: (15+25+10)/3 = 17
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (Coordinated)
 * Nations: Timurid Empire (L), Maldives (L), Mamluks (M) 10/7=1
 * Military Development: 3 (Maldives) + 12 (Timurids)/3 = 5
 * Economic Development: 3 (Maldives) + 14 (Timurids)/2 = 8+7 (City bonuses) =15
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3 (Maldives)
 * Motive: 10+5+5 (Defending, High Morale, Non-Dem Supported) = 20
 * Chance: 8 (NPC as main leader, so thousandths place used)
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 8+2 = 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 196*1.25= 120

Result
In two years, the defensive coalition can overthrow the government of Vijaynagar.
 * ((126.25/(42+126.25))*2)-1 = 0.50074
 * (0.50074)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 0.37555

Discussion
I need help with this algo please, I've never done this before Jbwncster (talk) 01:44, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just a warning, the Timurids and the Mamluks will get involved if you do not withdraw at once. 01:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's implausible for you to even know they exist at this point Jbwncster (talk) 01:23, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yes we do, and were coming for you. Although technically were just going to help fortify the Maldives. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   07:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so here are the Indian state's actions since Jb took over: So, according to the rules, mil/econ development cannot take place in the same year as expansion. Prior to Jb taking over the Indian state, however, there were 10 years, which is the same as 4 years of Infrastructure, 3 years of econ, and 3 years of mil.
 * 1410 - Expansion
 * 1411 - Expansion
 * 1412 - Expansion
 * 1413 - Expansion
 * 1414 - Mil/econ
 * 1415 - Expansion

Yes, and these should be divided by two.The chance is also being done wrong.i don't know how you all are getting into your heads that you are supposed to sum the numbers of the UTC time instead of multiply them.The Maldivian coalition also don't get high ground.The Timurids and Mamluks are invading by sea, and the Maldives are nowhere near getting high ground for themselves.And the Larger Empire refers to Colonial Empires.none of you have them.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:16, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I was told that the timurids can't help them yet by 2 mods but someone erased their post.

Also Bengal is my ally and they sent 1,000 Mercs but I guess you all didn't see that. I am also told that the Timurids don't have a navy right now. Jbwncster (talk) 15:10, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

The Timurids do not have an appropriate navy for such an expedition, although I guess you guys figured that out.

Bengal can do whatever it damn pleases. Jb never said his plan was to kill all the Muslims there, just to stop Islam from expanding in its own nation. If Yemen and the Mamlukes can go to war with each other, then Bengal and the Maldives can as well.

I do think this warrants further consideration by the mods, since two said otherwise, unless there is something I am unaware of. I think Viva may have changed his mind, but I am unsure.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 15:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

My Islamic soldiers were sent to defend Vijaynagar, not to help exterminate Maldivians. They were sent to return the favor of them helping Bengal against Jaunpur. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't going to exterminate anyone besides the casualties of war lol, Just wanted to change the government and take land. Jbwncster (talk) 16:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC) <p class="continued" data-user="Nkbeeching" style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:-15px;padding-right:15px;padding-bottom:16px;padding-left:55px;min-height:0px;position:relative;top:-15px;">
 * Nkbeeching: it had trading ties with most of the islamic world but it was way to out of the way for them to help the islands
 * dean might be able to help though i dont know, but no way rexi can help

<p class="continued" data-user="Nkbeeching" style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:-15px;padding-right:15px;padding-bottom:16px;padding-left:55px;min-height:0px;position:relative;top:-15px;"> I was told I could post this on chat Jbwncster (talk) 19:25, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Collie, we are not invading via sea. As we have been told regularly, we lack a navy able to capable all of our troops, so we are invading via land. Samarkand has a high enough elevation to count for high ground. In addition, we have larger empires (both colonial and otherwise). I am simply sending aid, not going to war, to boot. 21:05, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Explain to me how can you invade a group of ISLANDS by land? Jbwncster (talk) 21:15, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

We are not invading the island. We are invading your nation (however you spell it!) by land in order to stop your invasion of the island. Once we have wiped out your nation and overthrown your government, we can force the cessation of your invasion, at which point we will have successfully defended the Maldives. 21:35, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Still, you do not get high ground.just because you are on the defender's side doesn't mean that nothing you do can be considered a invasion.You youself just said you are invading Vijayanagar.you don't border them, and the Timurids neither, so you'd have to reach them by sea.Vijayanagar is not even attacking you directly, for your high ground to be considered valid.The nation for which high ground would be vaild has its capital on a low spot, if it has any capital at all.And you are not realizing you and the Timurids do not have colonies.You yourself tried to say you did not have colonies when i said it was implausible just three turns or so ago.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:03, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Several issues with what Rex has previously said. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:33, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Samarkand is no longer the capital of the Timurids, since it has been moved.
 * 2) If you claim that you can't attack them by sea, then how can you by land, when there are several large nations in the way. You have at least three or so nations in the way, and that would prevent you from bordering them and invading them.
 * 3) Neither of you have colonial empires. No one in the world does.

So does this mean dean and rex cant attack? Also eip add yourself to my side as military aid. I'll post more after i get off work Jbwncster (talk) 02:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

If you are attacking me and not helping in the Maldives war where is the separate algorithm anyhow? Jbwncster (talk) 04:09, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that there is need for a separate algorythm.The Timurids joined the Maldives in the war as leaders.And,they can attack.the means by which they'll do that is what disqualifies them from high ground.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:38, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Quashi (talk) 02:50, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Razor (talk) 03:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * 06:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbwncster (talk) 15:15, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 21:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Edboy452 [[Image:Flag of Romania.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of German Reich (1935–1945).svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of Israel.svg|25px|border]] [[Image:Flag of the Soviet Union.svg|25px|border]] (talk) 21:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Nay:
Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:33, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Comments:
Examples of my maps Civilizations: The Dawn, New Darkened Ages and Some in the map contest. Sine dei gloriem "Ex Initio Terrae" (talk)

And this one, I missed it Civilizations: The Dawn Geography

While the content of the maps are good, you have been kinda late with CTD maps, so you really have to push yourself to be on time with PMIII. Cookiedamage (talk) 02:44, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

If you actually read our posts and update the map when nations expand, you have my vote. Someone, changed the map several times but neglected expansion in the map updates. Razor (talk) 02:55, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Excuse fucking me, I have not laid a single damn finger on the map because of the unholy shitfest that is known as Europe. Don't even.

02:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Is it a decision for the public, or the mods? And I agree with Scraw, it's a bit of a complicated process. Though, I'm not objected to adding another person to help. Cour *talk* 03:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, then don't work on the map. Razor (talk) 03:06, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I don't. That's what I just said.

03:11, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Then why are you listed as "(Mapmaker only)" on the Main page? Just wondering.Razor (talk) 03:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sine if you promise me to update map whenever nations expand I will vote for you. I trust you, that you will do this. Have my vote. Razor (talk) 03:19, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I am a mapmaker but the map is very complex and I'm not even sure of the identities and locations of some nations.

03:18, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scraw, ah makes sense. I apologize. Razor (talk) 03:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Scan asked Scraw and others not to work on the map as of yet on the moderator page until they had gotten a chance to get used to the job. Also the map is a very difficult job, so I don't blame Scraw for being hesitant to edit in complex areas like Europe. Mscoree (talk) 03:27, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I realized that and I apologized. Razor (talk) 03:28, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Accepted. I also apologize if I came off as too harsh.

04:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Is Scand going to post a map for 1415? Because I feel that it is important that we do not get too far behind. To help, I am happy to vote Sine to the Mapmaker post! 06:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Almost done. I had a migraine yesterday and there is a lot of territorial changes but I'm almost through. Scandinator (talk) 07:48, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

A Thought on the MS Controversy
MS, he has done a magnificent job on this wiki, a great job. He helps, he does great timelines. Yet ever since his clash with LG everyone has treated him like crap, thinking him unfit for much of anything. It is not right for you to treat a person so helpful, its like how all people treat there mothers when growing up, you treat them like shit when all there trying to do is help you do the right thing, or to teach you something. My point is all of us are acting like children here. We need to think, let us not treat MS as a disobedient child treats its parents, lets treat him as a freind treats a freind. Should you not learn to calm down, and treat him with the respect he deserves, I will nominate myself for impeachment and see where it takes us. Sims -The Rainbow Machete  05:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ms, Sr. has spoken. Ms is no parental figure. If anything he is that troublemaker in school who always convinces you to do something wrong and then tucks in his shirt and puts on his scholarly face when you get caught by an authoritative figure. I am not unsure that most people here will agree that you might as well be impeached, considering that you don't do mod things.

/Ye I just saw what LG said. I'll just step out of here now.

05:51, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

LG, i care nothing for your opinion, and your thought of as an ass by a large chunk of this wiki. Step out now. All you do is try and bash someone for sticking up to you. Get out, and make it seem like your tail isnt between your legs. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   05:56, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

And LG, it seems your trying to bash me as well. Dirty there reputation so they cant stand up to you? You would make a fine politician. And since when did you give a damn about map games anyway? Was it when it involved your rival, MS, or when it apeared you could knock him down a few pegs and make yourself look better to the crowd which has tried numerous times to impeach you, an act I would love to see suceed. Sims -The Rainbow Machete   06:03, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Dean, that's enough. LG was trying to calm a fight in a section labeled 'Ms and his shit'. I think we all could use a second or two to catch our breaths here and calm down. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 13:35, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

A formal apology
I feel that after having calmed down after the whole terrible incident that occured over the past days that I have been a little out of hand. I'll make this apology only once, as I'm sure my temprament will get the betterment of me at least one more time over the course of my time in this game. I stand resolute in my belief that MS should not be a mod for his own sake as much as everyone elses. What I do regret is that I simply lost control. I would have followed Guns out of the game had I not just left this alone last night and rested, so I'm still in it for the meantime.

I hope that we can all recuperate and pick up the pieces, as this game should be one of the best ways to make a fun and varied timeline in a way that involves everyone. Rather than a ground for bickering, grudges and upset. Kunarian TALK 09:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I accept your apology. Mscoree (talk) 13:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Not entirely sure it was aimed at you, Ms, but hey. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)
 * Truthfully it was aimed at everyone and anyone. Kunarian TALK 17:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

We need more of this. This is a game, remember, and the point is to write history, not become the strongest nation in the world.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 17:46, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Italian League discussion
In the interests of fleshing this out so that we can properly use it as part of the game, I'm opening this discussion section. I propose setting up a constitution for the league so we can have a methodology for the league

Venice's Proposals
Many of these are taken from the original post and then expanded upon.

Concerning defining the members
 * 1) Florence, Milan, Naples and Venice shall be known as chief members of the Italian League.
 * 2) All vassals of the chief members shall be considered protectorate members of the Italian League.

Concerning defining the methods of the League
 * 1) When border and claim disputes occur, any chief member may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a representative to discuss the issue until it is resolved. Upon resolution of the issue, all respresentatives of the chief members must sign the resolution to make it valid.
 * 2) All chief members must agree to an economic deal between the members of the League. When a chief member wants to make a revision to the economic deal they may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a reprentative to consider revisions. Upon consideration of the revisions, all chief members must sign the new economic deal to make it valid.
 * 3) All chief members must agree to an alliance to defend all other chief members and protectorate members of the League.
 * 4) When concerning other matters, any chief member may call a council of the League. Each chief member will send a representative to discuss the issue until it is resolved. Upon resolution of the issue, a supermajority of the respresentatives of the chief members must sign the resolution to make it valid.
 * 5) All valid resolutions, economic deals and alliances must be defended by all chief members.

Discussion (league players)
Here is a section for the nations that are invited to be part of the Italian League.

This will be a good league, but at this time we lose Florence, and Milan is not very active, so we only have 2 real players here. I hope we can make it work anyway Kun - Quashi
 * We can, technically me and Florence are in the league. But Florence might be joining with me soon properly so we don't have to worry on that front. But we shall make the league work, even with 2 players. Kunarian TALK 18:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion (non-league nations)
Here is a section for the nations that are not invited to be part of the Italian League.

Scandinavia and England
How is it exactly plausible for England to rule the Kalmar. England can't plausibly play as the Kalmar, as they are two whole separate nations with barely any cultural ties. Furthermore it is pretty much meta gaming if a player just leaves the game and says something like: "I quit! Let <Insert Name> play as me." and then proceeds to write in their turn that their king and all their heirs die, so this means <Insert nation name here> can rule over my nation. User:Edboy452    (talk) 22:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed.

23:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I also agree that it is implausible for the UNC to hand its nation to England. Mscoree (talk) 23:19, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It seems odd to me too. I'll gladly assume control of the KU if needed. CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 23:21, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Crim plz. I think it's best for it to become special NPC.

23:22, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No joke, the KU was going to be my first choice before Guns took it. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 00:08, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * But will you drop Florence?


 * 01:36, February 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd have to, but it's not like Italy'll be totally empty without me. We have plenty of good players there. Making the KU an NPC nation seems silly when someone (me) is very willing to play it. Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 01:44, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought you wanted to unite Florence and Kalmar. K that's way better. No objection.
 * 01:47, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Very funny Crim.

The King of England, though not the closest in Line to the individual thrones, was related to Eric of Pomerania- and there would be no other claimants, as Eric himself had no family, save for his adoptive mother, Margaret. Who is dead as of 1412.

And seriously, STOP CALLING IT THE KALMAR. Do you call the USA the Philidelphia Union, because the Constitution was written there?

23:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It was kalled the Kalmar Union in OTL.

23:31, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

No, that's what historians called it, because it's no longer around, so we aren't sure what they actually would call themselves.

23:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

They called it The Youmaycallusthekalmarunioninthefuturebutwecallourselvesomethingdifferentbutwealsomostcertainlydidnotcallourselvestheunitednorsecrownbecausethathasinitialsandwedonotlikeinitialsoracronymization Kingdom.

01:36, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Just like MP and his Romans. Yawgmoth, Lord of the Wastes

Hey now, that is completely different, lol

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:48, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

'''I would like to defend my control over the former UNC, the English Royal family is the only other nation in Europe with ties enough to assume control, also I do not plan on retaining control indefinitely they will eventually be released under the condition that they remain friendly with Albion and maintain alliances. I know I cannot possible hold those regions indefinitely, though when the split does occur( probably within the next 20-30 years) I will retain Iceland and a Crown holding and possibly Denmark, everything else will revert to being independent.'''Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

In OTL the end of Eric of Pomerania's reign ment the start of one of many civil wars in the union. Considering that this event happened twenty years earlier, it seems like this war would start early as well. When you leave the game you can't just hand your nation to someone, even if they are losely related. Mscoree (talk) 13:09, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Then I will let them go, though I do request I at least retain Iceland. I assumed things would still go as otl, just possibly delayed. Unlike the other European nations I have a claim, it was not unusual for other nations to make a royal claim when no other heir is present. I would very much like to hold them for a time then let them rebel away. I didn't plan on keeping them forever.Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:13, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Currently Norwary, Denmark, and Sweden are all rebelling and at war with each other. If you want to swoop in and seize Iceland from Norwar then go ahead. Mscoree (talk) 13:15, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I love how you rebel away all these territories without even deciding to ask me about it. There was nothing terribly implausible about me retaining, then letting them go their merry way, you made a ruling without me being present to defend my side, forgive me for being a little irritated. You go vassalising the HRE and yet I'm the implausible one for holding on to a nation for a short period of time WHO IS RELATED TO MY KING? This is ludicrous. I told you, they will rebel, but I feel like my claim is a legitimate claim, and I'm not done arguing my case( forgiveness if this sounds rough or crass it is quite early hereBowties are Cool (talk) 13:20, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

All three of those nations elected their own king (like OTL) who they hoped could be the sole king. I was under the impression that England never actually acquired the UNC since that was deemed implausible yesterday, as several mods agreed. Just because your king is loosely related to their king does not mean you can take their entire nation when they leave the game. If that was the case I could inherit all of Europe. Even if you did acquire the entire UNC somehow, it is quite clear that none of the three kingdoms would recognize you; some Norman who is just now adopting the use of a Germanic language. For all intents and purposes assume that you never did own the UNC, but now that they are in upheavel you could attack and seize some stuff, like Iceland possibly. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok. I agree that they might not recognise a Norman claimant I forgot about that rid bit of history( pretty big oops if you ask me, must be the morning) is it possible for me to war with Norway then? Also as they are npc and in a civil war, how does one work this? Do I use an algorithm? I'm a bit foggy on the rules at the moment, a long night.Bowties are Cool (talk) 13:30, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yes all three are NPC's that you can declare war on. You still need to use an algorithm, and I think since they were recently a player nation that you use the UNC's score. If not you use one third of your scores for each. Mscoree (talk) 13:44, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

NOVA IS BEING ASB
Nova is being completely ASB with this war she forced her way into. Also in 1411 she went and reditted her post to add herself into the war that Bengal started and I was never added into the algo as helping. Nova has been deleting posts and forcing her way into wars when several mods have told her not to. Is there anything that can be done? Jbwncster (talk) 03:50, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

oh god, not this again...

First things first, keep it damn civil, you two. First person to break civility will suffer my wrath.

Second, i will explore the validity of your claims tomorrow, when I will be able to, unless another unbiased mod wishes to take on this task before hand.

I swear, this game has created more rivalries and feuds than any other...

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:54, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Also, use correct pronouns and name, considering Nova recently came out as transgender. Cookiedamage (talk) 03:56, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

No one officially said you had my land yet either, I'll be on chat if anyone wants to discuss anything civilly as well. Jbwncster (talk) 04:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I will allow the both of you to post your respective arguments here and ONLY here. ONE SINGLE POST EACH. NO INSULTS OR ANYTHING. Lay out why you think you should be allowed to do something or why someone should not be allowed to do something. If I return and find out that there is more than that here, I will not be amused, and actions will be taken that will not be kind.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 04:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Jbw, you were defeated in the war. Writing this in cap locks because you lost the war will not change its outcome, true, it may damage my reputation, but thats neither here nor there. If you have an issue, simply open a new section stating Problems With Sims or whatnot, or message other mods about it. This isnt the way to go. Nova   04:12, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I just wish she'd wait until the disputes are taken into account before I'm wiped from the game. Jbwncster (talk) 04:23, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

In a war you wouldn't have a reason to join. the maldives are a bunch of small islands that are far enough from you to not to care about them you have more issues on your own lands than in there, and Vijaynagar is too far from you to annex it and too big for the Maldives to annex it, I mean, if it was a bigger Muslim state and or closer to you i would see you joining the War, but they are just a puny island in the middle of nowhere that can't be reallistically in any harm to you, You just want to take over india and starting with Vijaynagar is a good choice, but that is Metagaming specially for the implausible alliance part Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 18:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nations have used crazier alliances, its a casus bella and a good one. Nations in OTL have jumped at chances like this, when the enemy launches an attack agaisnt a helpless state, and they attack in order to help "save" the little state, taking spoils of war without much international backlash. Considering how turbulent politics and war are, it makes sense. Nova   18:18, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah,but you are not an ally of them. and Vijaynagar is not a sworn enemy of yours, your sole intention to help someone you didn't care of is implausible, and the maldives is  an example of that. You have no reason outside of metagaming to join the maldives side. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk)

Recent wars had them joining the war against the Timurids vassals, therefor making them an enemy of the Timurids. Nova   19:08, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Technically it didn't count as I wasn't added into the algorithm Jbwncster (talk) 21:57, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I calling BS on this... there is no plausible explanation for you to be involved in the maldives other than you share an overarching religion (as does 95% of europe which still goes to kill eachother). You have no reason and would liek a true mod consensus on whether its plausible. Dean cant even hold the territory if he does take it....

GUESS WHO'S HERE TO RUIN EVERYTHING
I'd like to become more active and play as the kingdom of Georgia, beautiful caucus nation. OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 04:14, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Good Luck Oreo, I have always wanted to see an Empire arise from the Caucasuses. This will be interesting to say the least. Nova   04:25, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Oh... uh, sorry, didn't realize you wanted Georgia before I signed up for it. I'd offer to retract and hand you the spot, but I already input this year's orders and got a response from Muscovy. Please accept my humblest apologies! TankOfMidgets (talk) 02:34, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I have decided to not play... rip  OreoToast555(Talk)(Sandbox) 21:05, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Ashikaga

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Ashikaga (L +4)
 * Military Development:= 14/3 = 5
 * Economic Development: = 16/3 = 5
 * Expansion: -1
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: Economic 12 (Gains land, resources, etc): 3, Pre-emptive Strike against a nation rapidly building military forces: + 5, Non-democratic Government supported by people: + 4
 * Chance: 9
 * Editcount: 363
 * UTC time:21:02
 * 363/4 x pi = 285.099533
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1
 * Vassals and Puppets: x1.25
 * Total: 62x 1.25 = 77

Hatekeyama

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 
 * Nations: Hatekeyama (L +4)
 * Military Development: 3 = 0
 * Economic Development: 3 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 3
 * Motive: Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 9
 * Chance: 0
 * Nation Age: -15
 * Population: = 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: x 1.25
 * Total: 53 x 1.25 = 67

Result

 * ((77/(67+77))*2)-1 = 2,74%
 * (2.74)*(1-1/(2*2)) = 10.965

Discussion
So I win 11% of the Hatekeyama's land right? - Shadow

No.You won only 6,9%.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:19, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Venetian Civil War (1417-14??)
And so the long planned civil war begins. Finally the nobles have had enough and wish to unmake Michiel as Doge, however he has consolidated his power so much that he cannot be removed by traditional systems. His struggles to eliminate dangerous enemies and aim to reform the governments across the Empire have erupted into a full blown conflict. Giovanni Pieromo sits exiled in a hall in Aquilia, masterminding his allies schemes while the Doge sits in his Palace, digging his hands deeper into the Republic one day at a time. Nobles in Venice are divided but side more with Giovanni but the rich city merchants are fully in Michiel's lap. Across the Empire people declare their allegiances and make bold moves to help their allies. But who will win? I don't know. But I do know that it'll be quite the ride.

Here's something to keep track of the conflict. I'll also add people that join in with their nations.


 * Declarants and their allegiances
 * Doge of Venice, Michiel Roscol:
 * Venice
 * Nobles of Venice (minority) - having secured Veneto, they rest in Venice
 * Merchants of Venice - in Corfu, helping to defend it
 * Aegina
 * Rettore of Aegina and Venetian Poténsa of Athens, Frederico Doro - in Athens with an army
 * Rettore of Aegina, Geragio Doro, son of Frederico - with his father in Athens
 * Athens
 * Venetian Poténsa of Athens, Jacopo Dal Sol - killed in the 2nd Battle of Athens
 * Attica
 * Nobles of Attica - in Athens, fortifying the city
 * Kingdom of Candia
 * King of Candia, Egidio Morosini - imprisoned by forces loyal to Pieromo in Candia
 * Epirus
 * Governor General of Epirus, Christofo Roscol, younger brother of Michiel - in western Epirus with an army and forces from Prevezo
 * Epirus Free Ports
 * Nobles of Epirus (majority) - Titani locking down in their city, Preveza staying alert
 * Naxos
 * Duke of Naxos, Giovanni II Crispo - under guard in Naxos
 * Negroponte
 * Gastàldo of Negroponte, Rizardo Lacaris - in Negropont, turning the capital over to Roscol
 * Foreign Support
 * Hamburg - help sent was defeated by the Free Port Saranda
 * Knights of Saint John - 500 knights of the order have captured Naxos, further forces are arriving to assist
 * Hungary - showing support
 * England - showing support
 * Exiled Noble, Giovanni Pieromo - killed in the 2nd Battle of Treviso
 * Exiled Noble, Viti Pieromo:
 * Venice
 * Nobles of Venice (majority) - leaders imprisoned by forces loyal to Roscol in Venice
 * Athens
 * Claimant to Aegina and Poténsa of Athens, Teodor da Vale - killed in the 3rd Battle of Athens
 * Kingdom of Candia
 * Nobles of Candia - ruling through the captured king, waiting to evaluate the situation
 * Epirus
 * Southern Nobles - deafeated and killed or imprisoned
 * Epirus Free Ports
 * Nobles of Epirus (minority) - in Saranda they are fortifying
 * Naxos
 * Duke of Naxos, Giacomo I Crispo - killed in the Battle of Naxos
 * Negroponte
 * King of Negroponte, Nicolo Zorzi - Marching on Negropont
 * Peloponnese territories
 * Nobles of the territories - Fortifying their holdings
 * Foreign Support
 * Naples - sending their fleet to support Pieromo and blockade Venice, a small force has been repelled from Corfu by lies on another nearby island ready to attack
 * Neutral:
 * Athens
 * Roman Poténsa of Athens, Alexios Psellus - freed once more by forces loyal to Roscol
 * Corfu
 * Nobles of Corfu - in Corfu, recovering from another sudden invasion
 * Son of Napolitan noble - imprisoned by forces loyal to Corfu in Corfu
 * Kaffa
 * Governor General of Kaffa, Victor Borozzi - in the town of Kaffa, having crushed the rebels
 * Rebel leader, Grisigon Mamoli - fleeing to Genoa across the Black Sea, hoping to gain support
 * Self-proclaimed Protector of the Crimea, Stephen of Theodoro - protecting Kaffa


 * Battles (in chronological order)
 * 1418
 * 1st Battle of Treviso - decisive Roscol victory
 * 1st Siege of Saranda - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of the Aeginetan Gulf - Pieromo victory
 * Siege of Rethymnon - indecisive
 * Battle of Santi Apostoli - Pieromo victory
 * 1st Battle of Athens - decisive Roscol victory
 * 1419
 * Battle of Pieromo House - decisive Roscol victory
 * 2nd Siege of Saranda - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Corfu - Corfiot victory
 * Seige of Prevezo - Roscol victory
 * 2nd Battle of Athens - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Marathon - Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Candia - decisive Pieromo victory
 * Battle of Naxos - Roscol victory
 * 1420
 * Battle of the Ionian Sea - decisive Corfiot victory
 * Battle of Kaffa - Kaffan victory
 * 2nd Battle of Treviso - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Titani - Roscol victory
 * 3rd Battle of Athens - Roscol victory
 * Battle of Thebes - Pieromo victory
 * 1421
 * Battle of Venice - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Othonoi Island - decisive Roscol victory
 * Battle of Negropont - Roscol victory
 * 3rd Battle of Seranda - indecisive
 * Battle of Sitia - Roscol victory

Discussion
So Michiel. Very Roscol. Wow Venice.

02:05, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Currently I'm gunning for Michiel, although it does concern me that Pieromo is winning many battles. Especially I didn't expect them to conquer Aegina. Currently Pieromo does outweigh the Roscol supporters in sheer military strength however I don't know how long that will last. Btw I am using a randomiser with modifiers to represent the strength of certain forces to decide the battles, so ultimately I don't know who'll win. I'm not just messing with you. :L Kunarian TALK 15:43, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can we have a third candidate? Naples will send support soon! XD Quashi (talk) 18:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who knows, a third may arise. Currently there is only Michiel Roscol and Giovanni Pieromo and they have support of most of the Venetian nobles. Only Corfu and Kaffa remain in the middle, and Corfu is considering becoming seperatist (which may or may not happen depending on whether they think they can get away with it, and its too soon to tell that) but Kaffa is dealing with a rebellion. Where would a third candidate come from? Kunarian TALK 18:29, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure, but remember that corfu was napolitan until 1398... because the internal crisis, but now that the kingdom prospers... who kwnos. From corfu may come the new candidate, but i hope no a separatist one. Pieromo will restore the nobility? left the republic? Quashi (talk) 20:52, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * However Corfu experienced plagues of despair under the rule of Naples and placed itself under the protection of Venice, who knows maybe adventurers will threaten it again now that the eyes of Venice do not watch its children so closely... Giovanni Pieromo is against the lesser nobles (most of whom support the Roscols) and believes in establishing a more hereditary republic, preferably with him at the head. Kunarian TALK 21:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I myself are leaning mostly towards Roscol, only because the Doge has helped out the Empire greatly so far. It is thought by several Roman nobles that joining the war on the side of the Doge will allow the Empire to regain several Pieromo territories in Greece. However, some do find the idea of a "hereditary republic" alluring. While unlikely to cause the Romans to enter a civil war on their own, it may garantee their eventual involvement. And what is the story of the rebellion in Kaffa?
 * "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 00:24, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Roscol has certainly made many friends and many enemies but his treatment of the elder Giovanni Pieromo and the Bastards rebellion shows that he cannot tolerate rivals. In Kaffa, a Genoan noble who was part of the old regime has revealed himself and plans on retaking the colony and is marching on Kaffa itself, he still has support as the colony is freshly Venetian however the good Governor General is fortifying as we speak and so who knows the rebellion may be crushed or Kaffa may be temporarily occupied. Kunarian TALK 08:26, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Concerning the areas Naxos has occupied being considered neutral on the map. We must wait for the various players to declare or not declare allegiance to the new Duke of Naxos. Kunarian TALK 10:31, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have may some Godmodding
Recently, in the 1417 turn, I posted a diplomacy asking for a reply by a mod since it was to NPC nations. For an odd reason, Garjat turned down my alliance offer due to my war with Jaunpur. That however, makes no sense since Garjat AIDED me in my war AGAINST Jaunpur. Next, three relatively small nations declined my alliance proposal, offering trade instead, but I control the trade of two of those nations, and they also said they could "Hold their own" against the Timurids. So I got to checking what mod replied and I was met with a bit of a problem. The person who added the diplomacy was not logged in at the time, and had the IP of 216.157.209.62. By asking around, Scraw comfirmed the IP to be Nova's, and a search on the IP determined it to be from Michigin, the same state Nova lives in, as confirmed by MP, which is considerable evidence already.

Assuming this is Nova who made the edit, I detest it for a number of reasons.
 * 1) Nova has made multiple statements of wanting to conquer India, both publicly and privately to me, offering me a place in Iraq and support in conquest if I was to switch from Bengal to Iraq to favor her preferred conquests.
 * 2) Nova's recent controversial interventions in India against Vjayanagar confirm this suspicion.
 * 3) Depriving Bengal of allies for reasons that make no sense (See above about Garjat especially) further proves the point of wanting to conquer India, as little allies for Bengal would make Bengal a very easy target for Nova's Timurid's.
 * 4) The act of logging out and not posting with username information, and allowing only IP to show only proves guilt and the knowledge of wrongdoing, rather than absent-mindedly forgetting to log in. (Post before the mod diplomacy addition, and Post  that created the diplomacy.) Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 02:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

<p style="margin-top:0.4em;margin-bottom:0.5em;">I have also had several posts, along with other mods, deleted by dean. My 1415 post was removed and dean just removed feds post about not having my nations just yet.

Examples of Deans not so handy work:
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/index.php?title=Principia_Moderni_III_%28Map_Game%29&diff=926388&oldid=926385
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/index.php?title=Principia_Moderni_III_%28Map_Game%29&diff=922902&oldid=922899
 * http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Principia_Moderni_III_(Map_Game)?s=wldiff&diff=0&oldid=926447

Jbwncster (talk) 02:05, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

So deleting posts, posting without a username (aka posting with your ip) attempted or possible godmodding, Implauso invasion of Vijanagar (a Timmie invasion is logistically impossible i did all the factors up and it doesnt equal out to a hospitalble way for the Timmies to plausibly take them) Screwing other players out of their nations by essentially leaving them weak... isnt that the grounds for a certain action to be taken??

Impeachment of Nova
You've seen the evidence. I don't think there's any way you can deny that Nova is not mod material.--Yank 02:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Only mods vote Jbwncster (talk) 02:47, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Aye

 * I see some pretty damning evidence. I must side here I am afraid Bowties are Cool (talk) 03:53, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbw is right. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 07:21, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Stop removing my votes.
 * Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_(1400-1806).svg Labarum.jpg CrimsonAssassin- I have special eyes 04:00, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Nay

 * Scandinator (talk) 04:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:00, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Scraw please move your vote. You technically aren't a moderator. Thanks, Mscoree (talk) 02:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I have voted in other impeachments thus far. I don't see why you're voicing your objection now.

03:24, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Deanova you can't vote. It's about you. Plz.

03:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

You cant vote. Your only a mapmaker. It states so. And jbw is only doing this becasue i destroyed him in a war. Also i was logged out because they were changing my username and my account was locked. And for gods sake its NOT DEAN. Deanova is an even greater insult, its like calling me some half and half beast. -Nova 03:30, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

OK fine, Nova. Jeez, calm the heck down, will you? I have to get used to calling you nova out of the blue. Also, you should've objected to my voting when Ms was on for impeachment. Enough with double standards. Please point out where it states that a mapmaker cannot vote. I would also like to point out that I have access to the mod page and am treated as a mod in all respects save that I cannot make mod events, which I don't want to anyways.

03:45, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

He can vote nuff said, hes on the list under moderators which entitles him to a vote. That is a double standard at its finest if Scraw couldnt vote. and considering neither collie nor scan have said anything about scraw voting before this i think you need to calm it down

I've viewed the evidence and I do not believe it is grounds to remove her as a mod. She has a proper explanation for several of the accusations. However I would ask her to refrain from modding in India due to controversy. Garjat is also a vassal of Orissa and thus that is the real reason of the decline. Posting without a username is due to the current migration of her account. And the examples of her removing posts are most likely due to edit conflicts and attempting to correct your post (Jbw's) changing the page to source mode. Scandinator (talk) 04:42, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

The issue is resolved. All sides have come to an understanding and agreement. Scandinator (talk) 05:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

This is literally the third impeachment of a mod to occur in PMIII (fourth if you count the re-impeachment of Ms) and it hasn't even been a month yet. :/ Cookiedamage (talk) 05:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

My opinion: people are too quick to impeach mods. The problems should be discussed civilly as much as possible with the mod in question.

I agree with I Am That Guy. An effort should at least be made to reconcile the issue, as it appears Scan has done. Mscoree (talk) 11:37, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Resolved? Still haven't gotten a reason on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable", and they "Can hold their own" versus the Timurids. Hold their own, you know, Koch and Aohm, the two nations rely on me just so they get enough food to feed their people? (And just to clarify, I wasn't the one who did this impeachment, I attempted to resolve it by posting on the talk page about why I thought it was unjust of Nova to do mod actions in India, considering it looks very bad when the person that wants to take over all of India starts depriving a person of allies with shoddy reasons through mod powers.) Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 13:16, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I really should take up Orissa again and kick Timurid ass... Imp (Say Hi?!) 18:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

No thanks lol.

04:06, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Aye

 * Jbwncster (talk) 03:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 05:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC) (Still haven't gotten a response on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable". And Nova saying that she deleted Fed's post about crossing out the Vijayanagar vassal posts because "Rex told her Fed was out to get her" doesn't sit right with me as a reason.)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 05:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC) (Still haven't gotten a response on why Ava, Koch and Aohm refused my alliance other than "It's explainable". And Nova saying that she deleted Fed's post about crossing out the Vijayanagar vassal posts because "Rex told her Fed was out to get her" doesn't sit right with me as a reason.)

Nay

 * <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor Nabil.png  03:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Wohoo 2k!
Yeah!

Yey! <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor

Treaty terms

 * The Maldives will remain independent
 * Vijaynagar will pay tribute to the Timurid Empire for 15 years
 * Vijaynagar will recognize the Maldives and Jaffna as sovreign states

Signatories
Timurid Empire Vijaynagar Maldives (MOD-signed)
 * -Nova
 * I will only accept this if nova can behave like a civilized person Jbwncster (talk) 16:58, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Scandinator (talk)

Meta-game Treaty

 * The impeachment of Nova will be removed as it is a) not approved prior by two mods. b) had insufficient and misunderstood evidence
 * Nova will no longer mod in India.

Discussion
I support this treaty. I think it's better to talk out disputes then try to quickly impeach someone. Mscoree (talk) 15:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

It helps in talking out problems with a persons actions when all things are addressed, but instead it seems that only a few things have to be addressed for the whole thing to be resolved. And let me be clear again, nobody who posted about the problems with Nova's actions created the impeachment. Yank created the Impeachment. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:03, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Firstly the Treaty is implausible and its biased towards Nova, Which i can't allow. Last time things like this turned PM2 into a shithole of ASB which was the reason we started this earlier. and he can't gain anything at all from a war he shouldn't have won, because he shouldn't have joined. Laws are for Everyone and Metagaming is Certainly outlawed. Including to us mods. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 17:02, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Scan wrote it all. I didnt write the thing. And how is it biased, I wrecked JBWs nation, the only reason Im not annexing it is becasue I cant hold it. -Nova

I don't think I should lose Jaffna, I won't sign if I do, also nova keeps saying I don't have Venad as a vassal and keeps erasing my claims.Jbwncster (talk) 19:13, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'll do everything else but give up jaffna Jbwncster (talk) 03:35, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

To late now. You wouldnt accept the treaty, so im taking a northern strip of your land. -Nova 03:45, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have been at work since 5pm eastern so I couldn't do anything and I just got home 30 minutes ago Jbwncster (talk) 03:54, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well since you have proven you hate me and are taking it out on me via chat and my nation and you aren't going to stop no matter how many people tell you to or how many things people are willing to compromise on maybe I should just leave the whole wikia and never come back if that's how the community is treating people Jbwncster (talk) 04:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Come on, Jb, don't be like that. We still have Steam Age in the works.

I guess I can't reason with someone who just takes things into his own hands and does what they want. Jbwncster (talk) 05:18, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''since nova won't do any negotiations and has already tried to take land without proper reasoning can we scrap this war and go back and I won't attack them? Jbwncster (talk) 06:03, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''He's going to just take them by force so if any mod wants to do something they can. Jbwncster (talk) 06:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Nova, consider this a first warning. In addition, the treaty terms will hold. Jaffna is a stable state and thus land seized from it would mean war, that term is to smooth out continuity. You should be able to take all of Lanka soon. Just give it a little while. Scandinator (talk) 08:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Nova, you have seen what Scan said, have been warned by LG, and now you just posted a new picture taking even more land... Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 15:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'ii'''

'''i was warned about swearing, not PM3. And as it seems jbw still hasnt signed the treaty. Henceforth I dont have to follow it. I have logs proving i tried to negotate with him and you can ask Andrew and Rex both that i tried to negotiate and he would not. -Nova 15:56, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

It was all one sided, you kept trying to take land and even more land and you won't even consider that you shouldn't have bothered in the first place, now you keep taking everything and won't accept the fact that you can't just take anything until everything is settled Jbwncster (talk) 15:58, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''You wouldnt accept a fair treaty that took nothing. So i had to take land. You continue to insult me and call me ASB instead of offering a reasonable counteroffer. You just say implausible when the mods are split half and half on the war, making it valid. You scream in order to be heard, bashing me and turning the wiki agasint me. Now for all your trouble Im taking you over. -Nova 16:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

Nova,  '''I have logs of Crim telling you to just entertain the idea of his counter-offer, for the sake of negotiations, for at least thirty minutes, and all you said is "No". I also have logs of you harassing Jb to the point of him wanting to quit, to where you in fact encouraged him to leave the wiki. Ask Feud, ask Jb, ask Crim, ask anyone who was on when we all tried to get you to negotiate, but you spent then entirety of the time saying "No, he won't sign." Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 16:05, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''Yeah, i did encourage him to leave. He harrases me as much if not more than i do which i have logs of. He said "i should just leave", rage quitting because he lost. So yes, i said he should leave, ive been told as much in the past, yet no cared then. Why does it matter now. -Nova 16:11, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'(NEW POST) Nova, you threaten to quit the wiki very often, and all people do, is encourage you to stay on, to not feel bad, to not feel sad. All we try to do, is keep you on when you rage so you don't quit. Please, attempt to show the same compassion we show you. I believe I've sent you PM's in chat twice before, to say everything I could to keep you on the wiki when you want to leave it for good. Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 22:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'

Now he won't listen to scan and is saying he's just going to take the land and move on and won't talk more about it Jbwncster (talk) 16:17, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

'''You wouldnt listen to Scan and sign the treaty in which you lost nothing at all. A dumb move on your mark. -Nova 16:20, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

'''I'm fine with the original treaty just not losing my expansion in jaffna, that was the only thing I wasn't ok with and when dean found out he assumed I didn't like the whole thing and wouldn't even negotiate. Now if dean is willing to negotiate on this page for everyone to see and not in chat I'll be willing to continue talks Jbwncster (talk) 16:22, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'''

N'''ow he wants to ban me from the whole game because he can't negotiate. I have posted a screenshot of DEAN banning me because he can't be civil.'''



I knew you were gonna try that. You edited another players post twice. You were warned. Then you did it again. Now your banned. -Nova 16:49, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Dean keeps crossing out posts and saying he's going to take land no matter how and won't even listen to Scan about accepting the treaty Jbwncster (talk) 17:12, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have a suggestion to both of the players. Due to the recent information I have gained whilst observing the argument between Jbwncster and NovaSims I have noticed two important things. Nova's argument is that Jbw took too much time to sign the treaty, which was according to Jbw physically impossible due to him having real life duties. Yet, according to Jbw, he also did not sign the treaty due to him not wanting to lose Jaffna. Now, since Nova is technically the winner of the war, (s)he should be the one who is able to change the treaties. After another discussion with the partakers in the war, I have come up with a reasonable suggestion for both players. All terms that have been decided beforehand remain, and multiple ones are added. First of all, Jbwncster, henceforth known as the loser, will also have to give up Venad, due to the fact that he has lost between a nation multiple times bigger than him and I myself do not believe the leader(s) of Venad would choose to stay. Second of all would be that the loser is forbidden to vassalize nations for the next fifteen years. Thirdly, NovaSims, henceforth known as the winner, will not be able to vassalize or conquer any nation that the loser lost untill the loser pays off his tribute. Last but not least, both the winner and the loser are not allowed to in any way insult eachother on the PMIII map game or its talk page, or they will be punished accordingly by the moderators of said map game. That would be all ladies and gentlemen, I hope you give it a thought or two. Thank you in advance.

Cheers -

Im for it. -Nova 17:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not allowed to have a marriage then this game is over for me, Also if I can't have vassals or anything for 15 turns by then all the europeans will be in india and can destroy me anyhow. Jbwncster (talk) 17:40, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

The comments above have been taken into consideration. Jbwncster's vassalization ban could be lowered to 10 years rather than 15 and marriage has not and shan't be prohibited by the treaty.

If the proposal is accepted, I will also, as its creator make sure its terms are followed.-

Also can we just have a mod decide what to do? Since nova won't reason with me. Jbwncster (talk) 18:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Im trying to reason with you. You wont budge  -Nova 19:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

You don't try to reason, you are trying to halt his expansion by using your mod powers, and Scan doesn't want to slap your hand from doing it because you are a mod, But i believe this treaty and the war should've been retconned from the beginning, and the continuous discussion about this proves my point. IF YOU ANNEX HIM I'LL THUNDERSTORM YOU. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 00:32, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I keep getting my posts crossed out and I feel dean just wants to abuse his mod powers and just cheat all the way. He won't reason with anyone unless they bow down to him and give him everything. Jbwncster (talk) 01:14, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Anti-Godmodding/Bias Rule
I believe we all have seen the recent events involving Nova, previous to that Scan alleged De facto 1-turn vassalage period and Ms Russia's invasion which dragged a Huge part of the HRE. I believe that some of this issues could have been easily solved if the mods were not to meddle in their regions or regions where they show direct pretentions (Saying for an Example that i can't post something like Bourbon collapses and its absorbed by France, nor Bourbon joins the side of france against a war with the Castilians or Aragonese) this would be to avoid any further crisis from coming out of people fighting over implausible events or biased events that for now have given an advantage or influence of the mod nation. In this case the rule could be applied in a fairly simple way. For an instance France cannot be involved in any mod event in the french states and or about the french unification process. the Timurids can't be involved in events relative to persia or northwestern india, the rule also would imply that mods can't use their modhood to like Nova allegedly did halt everyone else expansion within india. To be short
 * 1) Mods can't meddle in the events related to their nations or to nearby nations that are within the claimed area or territory that's targeted to expand.
 * 2) Mod nations can't join wars implausibly to nations historically ignored by most of the nations or a relatively ignored by the nations nor enemies being attacked by Player nations (at least not without previous plausible vassalage attempts)
 * 3) No hyper vassalizations to NPC nations, Interventions are plausible without algorithms if there's is no intention to annex them or vassalize them immediately, or initiating this way the vassalization. a minimum period of vassalization for a nation half of your size would be 5 to 6 turns, However this may change depending if other mods agree.
 * 4) No mod-puppeting. This implies that no nation NPC or Player can be forced by a mod to join a war, and that even if alliance, there has to be an implicit declaration by the player nation for them to be considered in the algo. or a message from itself in the algo discussion to be accepted as part of the algo.

Mods may agree on this and vote if you like to do this and players can ( and please do it) give me their opinion in order to fix and expand this rule. Sine dei gloriem &#34;Ex Initio Terrae&#34; (talk) 17:45, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Good proposal; well thought out.
 * Bowties are Cool (talk) 23:50, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not Bad. Note that this rule may be undone by a mod vote if necessary. Cour *talk* PMII_Mayan_Flag.pngCaborr_Flag.png 00:41, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yay:

 * Quashi (talk) 18:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kunarian  TALK<span style="background-color:rgb(242,242,242);line-height:14px;"> 18:29, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jbwncster (talk) 19:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eiplec - ಠ_ಠ (talk) 21:55, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cookiedamage (talk) 00:40, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * <span style="background-color:silver; border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:2em 0em 0em 0em; padding-left:8px; padding-right:0px;"> ... <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(red), to(aqua));border:6px outset yellow; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> Razor  - the Razor Nabil.png  04:53, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not know why this was not accepted earlier. 05:42, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not know why this was not accepted earlier. 05:42, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
Fun fact, in England, voting is done in Ayes and Noes rather than Yays and Nays. Kunarian TALK 18:34, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

No wonder their Empire fell apart *lamepun*

The HRE has never invaded Russia. Mscoree (talk) 22:02, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese civil war
As we all might know, Shadow has been attacking multiple daimyos since the beginning of the game. Now, due to the fact that he is destabillizing his authority within a region where the local leaders held on to their independence very strongly.

Therefore I suggest a mod event in 1419 that would start the Japanese civil war, and maybe even create alliance between multiple daimyos, for example an alliance of the southern daimyos. Also I'd be happy if mods checked shadows posts more often as nearly every one of his posts contains something ASB.

That would be all, thank you in advance ladies and gentlemen.

i whole heartedly agree with this idea. Nkbeeching (talk) 19:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

im for it. Ill take care of the issue. -Nova 19:41, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

There is no need for a civil war. How else would I get more land without war. Sti this stupidness now. - Shadow

it isnt stupid its the natural result of your bloody expansion. every action has a consequence. Nkbeeching (talk) 23:49, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

massive chinese fleet?
i can understand alot of things in pm iii but you know if its impossible for westerners to reach the orient dont you think it should be the same in reverse. i mean sure the chinese had the money to support a massive fleet at the time, but to make it all the way past the cape of good hope with current tech is a bit impossible dont you think. Nkbeeching (talk) 00:30, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Having the Chinese fleet arrive in Europe might be a bit too much, too soon. Mscoree (talk) 00:46, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. The Ming Dynasty was a huge funder of exploration voyages. Their principle commander, Zheng He, lead the fleets all throughout the Indian and Pacific Oceans. It is even believed he reached North America sometime in otl 1420s. I see no reason why they can't reach Europe.

I find it plausible. As previeouly mentioned, it is believed that Zheng He reached the Americas, Europe is not out of the qeustion.Bowties are Cool (talk) 01:06, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, reaching the americas is not as vast a distance as crossing the Indian ocean, then rounding africa, and then sailing up the same continent, all without ports capable of supplying or supporting such a fleet.

It was difficult for the Portuguese to do it at first, and that was with single ships. Having a massive fleet would have a lot of logistical and supply problems.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:13, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Just going to say, Zheng He did not discover America. The claims that he did all come from one of those "popular history" books and have mostly been debunked IIRC. Fed (talk) 01:18, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Grant, hard evidence supporting a Chinese voyage to North America is scant. Most of it comes from stones found off California congruent with Chinese anchors from the time. But it is believed that the Chinese were more than capable of traversing open ocean to North America.

Treasure ships can have enough supplies to last them a year, if they restock in one of the many ports of the Indian ocean trade network, they may be set for long voyages, however Europeans were attempting to circumnavigate africa since 1425 but only succedded when Vasco de gama did it in 1498...so ya...if they succeded in 1425 then it could have been possible but in 1419...well, treasure ships do have MUCH more supplies, so its'' theoreticaly possible... ''considering Europeans hade MUCH MCUH smaller hulls therefore less supplies(ceveral months max) compared to the YEARS lifespan of Treasure ship food if dried...so maybe but now would be stretching it...but not by much...-Lx (leave me a message) 03:45, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

There is a fleet of over 500 ships, they've failed to circumnavigate Africa twice already but figured out they can get supplies in Mozambique. The supplies there can last a year and the ships are twice the size of European ships in the 16th century that went to the Americas. Massive fleets also mean that they can supply each other. Scandinator (talk)

He did not even make a voyage in the general direction of North America. Quite literally, that "author" is a fraud. So, for that matter, is those "stones."

Zhang He did not reach the Americas. Simple. Even trying to say that he, or any other Chinese explorers, sailed in that direction is an outright lie.

Overall, far too soon for Chinese explorers to be anywhere near Europe.

On the contrary, the Chinese vessels did not have the ability to supply each other. In truth, they consumed far more than their European counterparts.

There is a very good reason why Europeans made it first, even ignoring the Ming shutting down exploration - European ships were far, far, far easier to supply, and resupply. Remember, smaller ships, but also far smaller crews, and far easier to repair/maintain. Sure as heck didn't have to cannibalize ships like the Chinese did on their voyages.

European ships were also much faster, and far more seaworthy. Comparing the Atlantic Ocean to the waters Chinese ships sailed in is like comparing a tiger to a housecat.

Basically, African stops on coastline without ports was feasible with regards to resupplying for the Europeans, but not the Chinese.

Lordganon (talk) 09:52, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

based on what lg stated can we get a rollback on the chinese passing the cape of good hope. Nkbeeching (talk) 18:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Well, uhm, not sure why LG is getting involved in map games, but since he is pretty much the senior historian of the wikia, I assume we shall follow his judgement?

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:16, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how they could not support each other using the smaller boats. In this ATL the Ming have not had to shut down naval exploration and a naval focus, the Mongols have not attacked nor the Timurids. Considering these ships are built to weather typhoons then its not too hard to imagine them sailing the south Atlantic. And supplying in Mozambique which was a Swahilli trading port, for the voyage to Oyo is plausable. The length and difficulty of the voyage means it is unlikely to occur again in the PM3 ATL in its current form but its just a nice shake up of the old Euro-centric POV. Scandinator (talk) 04:10, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I do try to keep half an eye on the big games, if for no other reason than I can have half a clue in advance when problems are coming. Hence, why almost all of my posts on these talk pages are warnings.

This case, could not stand to see people preaching that bull as fact.

Scan, you can't "support" them with smaller boats. All that really does is shift supplies around the fleet, which does nothing. If you're referring to them sending smaller boats to the coast to try and get supplies, it's still the same problem. A question of scale, if you would - just not possible to get the needed supplies. You'd end up consuming more sitting there gathering them than you would get by gathering more.

The Ming not shutting that down is more or less irrelevant. Solves more or less nothing about the problems with the ships and naval methods.

Actually, they weren't really built to weather typhoons, so to speak. What they were built to do is, in that regard, not take too much damage or sink because of them while sitting at anchor in port. Those ships, imo, have a really bad track record when hitting storms/bad weather while at sea. Heck, they didn't really tend to even be out all that much, by comparison, at that time of year.

The ocean that the Chinese ships normally traveled in is also far shallower than what the western Europeans sailed in. Normal conditions out that way are pretty tame. The Atlantic is not.

With regards to Oyo, they would be incapable of supplying a Chinese fleet with more than water (even that somewhat iffy) on a real level. You're also exaggerating the Swahali trading ports - they were small ports, little more than glorified trading posts. On the edge of the world, so to speak. While they could probably get some supplies there, especially water, the amount would be severely limited.

Lordganon (talk) 08:48, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

New event
Hello, recently i'ben notified that soon I will be traveling for work and apparently I'm going to Manaus, so i will not be present to be posting. So I created an event in my last post, it was something that had already been planned some time ago, but it was not going to give in these conditions, but the general idea of the event remains. Provence will pass through a small crisis of succession, where the lower Angevin line will disappear, and a personal Union is created. I hope that through this can consolidate the Angevin family. I already ask Quashi that he post for me, and not destroy my nation XD, i hope i can come back soon. Mawilda (talk) 04:02, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Page of the Week/Month
Hi fellow PMIII'ers! I am just wanting to toss around an old idea which has been incubating in my mind (and I am sure that of others, since I got the idea from them) of having a Page of the Week (or Month)!!! This would operate similarly to the wiki-wide TL of the Month, except we would want to keep on top of it.

We can make pages for our nations, our vassals, our colonies  (later on), our wars, our treaties.... so many pages!!! Now, the page of the week could be determined by the mods, or the players, or both (or we could rotate it).

Now, what would this do, should you have the page of the week? Maybe a couple of good mod events, a "Get out of a Mod Event" -free card, or a bonus in the algorithims. That is all up to you... I just wanted to get the idea out there, in order to help encourage development of pages. 08:22, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like the idea of a page of the month, as it motivates people to develop some cool pages. I don't think it would carry a bonus to get out of a mod event or add points to an algorithm however. More like a honor to have than a bonus. Mscoree (talk) 11:38, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like this idea although I don't think we should reward people with something like that. Maybe only that they have their chance on the max in their next algo, but that should be it. If we give them too useful rewards people will just start making and editing pages in order to get the reward.

I personally like that idea, as some map games have "Pages of the Month", and due to the high amount of pages that spawn off of a Principia Moderni game, I think that there will be no shortage of material. <font color="#29AB87">Bow To Your Sensei. <font color="#002366">BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!!!

Okay so how about we start proposals here? Mscoree (talk) 20:01, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

We are supposed to nominate pages below, are we?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:51, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Proposals

 * Portugal Family Tree (Principia Moderni III Map Game) (perpetually under construction)--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:50, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hesse (Attacker)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 3
 * Nations: Hesse (L) Nassau (LV) Frankfurt (LV) 10/4=3
 * Military Development: 20/3 = 7
 * Economic Development:  16/3 = 5
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 4
 * Editcount:117
 * UTC time: 08:42
 * 117/64 x pi = 5.74322407
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 16
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: -2

Score: 84

Brunswick-Gottingen (Defender)

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Brunswick-Gottingen (L) 4/7=0
 * Military Development: 3/30 = 0
 * Economic Development: 3/30 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure Development: 3
 * Motive: (8-5)=3
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: 0 (1387 - Take over by Burghers)
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals And Puppets: x1.25

Score: 65

Result
74/139 - 0.5 x 2 = 0.064748202

0.064748202 x 1.5 (civil disarray bonus) = 0.097122303

Hesse can take 9% of Gottingen's territory, depending from how much the war lasts.

Discussion
Went ahead and tidied this one up, from both formatting and error standpoints. 08:55, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Other errors corrected.Brunswick-Gottingen must be about half your size, so i'd estimate they have half your population, so your bonus is only a two.And population is not like development, meaning that the smaller side does not get 0.And i had to fix the chance.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 13:56, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

@The half the size part, just wondering if you included Nassau. Also, what do you mean depending on how long the war lasts for the results? Do I get more land if it continues longer, or? Blocky858 (talk) 06:01, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but since Gottingen is in civil disarray, the calculations for war years will be (p)*(1-1/(x)).--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:06, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

So how much land do I get each year? Just add another 9%, or? Also, is it where I need 33.33% land to annex someone or do whatever I want to their government? Or is that a score thing? Blocky858 (talk) 23:34, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

It's like that:If your war lasts 5 years,k the calculations go like;(9)*(1-1/(5))

Which will give out: 7,2%.

The maximum lands you get is 9%, regardless of how much the war lasts.If you want to topple their government, you should declare another war in less than 30 years.Then you join the results of this war with the ones of the other.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:27, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Okay thank you. I just gained a bunch of land so do I will put that in. Blocky858 (talk) 07:38, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

A Question
With Yemen, my former nation, now a part of the Mamluk Sultanate, I'm thinking of choosing a new nation. I wanted to ask if the nation in southern Hokkaido the Ainu nation? If that is so, I've basicly decided between either choosing one of the Rajput states in Northwestern India, the Ainu nation, or the Uesugi clan. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 10:15, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently Yemen is coming free soon. Wait maybe? Up to you.

15:48, February 20, 2014 (UTC)'

I wouldn't bother with india, nova won't let anyone have it and he'll find a way to make your life hell Jbwncster (talk) 16:08, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

If you would wait, you will find that your nation will actually have the revenge of a lifetime...more or less...

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:23, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Another Question
Are there still spaces open in this map game? If so, I would definitely be interested in joining. RevenantAscension (talk) 17:17, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of spaces open. But you should choose your position wisely.

New players are always welcome. Just take a look in the nations list on the main page for a list of still open nations. Mscoree (talk) 20:00, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Go for it. Lots of slots open, expecially if you are inventive. Obviously a lot of the power slots are taken but you could have plenty of room to spread out in, say, Sub-saharan Africa, South America, parts of North America, Oceania. Sky is the limit - although I would caution aginst jumping into Europe at the moment given the situtation. Commandante Lemming (talk) 21:25, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Don't bother with India, Nova can't be reasoned with. I quit if nothing is done to make this game better. I can't even have a nation because someone keeps land grabbing and won't listen to anyone. Jbwncster (talk) 03:11, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

So if someone took Tibet how would they protect themselves? Jbwncster (talk) 03:35, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

60 Editors
What. The. Fux. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 03:32, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

PITA! :D We beat the record, so yay. Jump in if you want to. Fed (talk) 03:35, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Ye we have between 59 to 62 at any given time although it may (read: will) drop down to 20 - 30 range.

03:36, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you should stay a while, lol.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 03:38, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I tried last time but school was too much... I think I will stay this time tho. PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 03:44, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Also I found the mod google doc and requested access... are you guys using it? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 04:09, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Of course.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:14, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I have added you to the document. Mscoree (talk) 15:08, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Mod Response for Bavaria
Hey guys. Can a mod please write up a response to this offer I wrote the NPC Pfalz (copied straight from game):

"In dynastic news, Heinrich XVI sends letters to the various lords of Pfalz (with whom Bavaria is linked via dynastic union), offering them assistance in setting up a government. In return, they would accept Heinrich as their true lord under a personal union. ''' Can a mod respond to this, maybe in the next mod events?" '''

I already asked the past few turns but I don't think any mods saw it, so I decided to put it here. Typing up a mod event for 1421 would be fine too.

Thanks!

Cookiedamage (talk) 05:49, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I already asked on the moderator page. I would accept but I need to make sure everyone else is in agreeance first. Mscoree (talk) 11:41, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for responding! Sorry if I sounded pesky, didn't know you needed wider agreement :P Cookiedamage (talk) 00:53, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Impeached
Mscoree has been. I don't know where people got the "supermajority" thing from, but it is not on the Rules Page. To vote a Mod in needs a Supermajority, but to vote them out mentions nothing of the sort, so I assume it is a straight up Majority. In which case, 3 - 2 is a Majority. Ms has been impeached. So... Shouldn't he not be a Mod now? Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

I was under the impression that it needs a supermajority, just like the TSPTF. Mscoree (talk) 21:23, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

There is no mention of it, so I don't think it does. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)


 * There should be a sufficient number of moderators at all times.
 * Anyone may comment on a post believed to be implausible, but only moderators may roll them back or cross the post out.
 * Moderators are in charge of inducting new members.
 * Moderators should be active often to inspect moves for historical implausibility.
 * Moderators may cause natural events, revolts.etc. Moderators may cause events affecting all players of a certain region or only players who have expanded implausibly.
 * Moderators may have specific roles, which they are in charge of.
 * Inactive moderators may be removed.
 * Moderators may be impeached. The impeachment procedure can be initiated by any player but must be approved by at least two other mods. Only moderators (minus the one being impeached) can vote on whether the impeached mod will or will not be removed.
 * A moderator may propose that an user be banned from the game, either temporarily or permanently. The moderators will vote upon this.
 * The above can be avoided if an user has broken the rules in a severe way (e.g. sockpuppeting), then the said user can be automatically banned by any moderator.

The bolded rule is the relevant one, and as can be seen, does not require a Supermajority.

Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

That would mean Nova would also need removing, since that vote had a majority against her.

Didn't see that. I guess so, then Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Although not specifically stated in the rules I think a supermajority should be necessary for the same reasons it is used by the TSPTF. Mscoree (talk) 22:31, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

We are not the TSPTF.

22:34, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not just saying this because I voted for ms. I have to say that from what LG explained to me, I think that a supermajority is important. If there is no quorum then anyone can just spam through something. Seems like a logical thing to follow. Tr0llis (talk) 22:39, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

These are not the mods you are looking for.

22:38, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Anyone can just spam through something... Because that has never happened on PM3 before. No one got into Modship by Spamming through... Especially not Ms. Not at all. Not even slightly. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Also, LG was explaining why the TSPTF should vote, not why they should have a supermajority.

22:43, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

Guns, he was explaining why it was important for TSPTF votes to be counted separately, not where they should vote at all. Of course they should be able to vote. He talked about a precaution set up, so that TSPTF members had to have a 2/3 vote to ensure that nothing was spammed through. Mscoree (talk) 22:54, February 21, 2014 (UTC)

I think it'd be quite a murky act and one that truly stinks to change the rules resulting in a different result than what was voted for. Kunarian TALK 09:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

This isn't really changing the rules. The rules don't state how the voting must be conducted, so I am just proposing that we use the wiki's rules. Seems that would be a fair thing to do, and so far most of the moderators seem to be in agreeance. Some who even voted against me (such as Scraw) wrote in the discussion that we need a supermajority. Mscoree (talk) 16:10, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

If it does not say that it is a supermajority, it is a majority. That is... pretty obvious, TBH. Local Mafia Boss (Talk) (Blog)

Also, the page states explicitly in the places where it is a supermajority, and it does not do so here, so it is not relevant.

Nova's Gotta Go!
I don't know why we need to continue to go over this, but Nova's recent behavior should make this clear. She's not mod material and everyone should know this. --Yank 00:56, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. It is a shame that our own head mods cannot realize this.

01:06, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Based on what? It's my understanding Nova and Jbw worked out their crap.

The fact that it got that bad to begin with should be a sign that Nova simply does not have what it takes to be mod. Nova's abusing her mod powers to further her personal goals, and that should be absolutely unacceptable. Mods should be above harassing other players to get what they want.--Yank 01:40, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Although I'm a neutral player in this feud, I agree with Yankovic, her mod events are bias. Toţi în unu; Nihil Sine Deo

Can you point them out to me?

we didn't settle anything I just gave up cause you can't reason with an immature person. Jbwncster (talk) 04:53, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I havnt made any mod events recently. If you want me gone Yank, make another impeachment attempt. Otherwise, please stop griping on the talk page, its cluttering it up.And I recently tried reconcling with JBW, I offered my nation to replace his, as a peace offering. It wasnt accepted. -Nova 04:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think he rejected cause that's meta as shit.

05:10, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

For God's sake people, can we stop putting up impeachement attempts because of the most inconsequential reasons? The problem between Jb and Nova is being worked on, and honestly this just works to fuel the flames. Fed (talk) 05:20, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't directly set up an impeachment because at this point those tend to fail regardless of how deserving the recipient is. You do realize that your metagaming is one of the reasons why you get nominated for impeachment. And weren't you quitting anyway? --Yank 05:20, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Im not leaving the game. And honestly, I just want this whole mess to be done with. Its caused more issues than its worth, seeing as I have to give up the spoils anyway. -Nova 05:24, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how giving Jbw his country is meta-gaming. And I'm with Nova, this thing should be done with.

Mod response
can someone respond to tibet 1420? Jbwncster (talk) 06:22, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

I have replied to it. Mscoree (talk) 13:25, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Treaty Terms

 * 1) The Ashikaga clan returns all lands conquered after attacking the Shiba, Toki and Hatekeyama daimyos.
 * 2) In order to stop halt the Shogun from trying to start the war again he will submit his navy to the Shiba Toki and Hatekeyama clans.
 * 3) The Shogun's army mustn't be stationed near the the daimyos border (atleast 5 miles/kilometres?) for the next 15 years

Toki, Shiba, Hatekeyama and Emperor (Mod-signed)

 * -Mscoree (talk) 15:41, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
I will not begivin up my land that I won fair and square! I will not give up my navy. You are out of your mind. This is the worst treaty I have seen in my life. I would rather give you some of my money and some goods instead of land. - Shadow

First of all, if you don't accept you have 3 angry clans around you waiting to attack. Secondly, because of you messing with Vietnam there is now a chance of Ming China sending military to Japan. Finally, if you don't sign it I can easily as Kampaku get not only the daimyos but the Emperor too against you.

Also my treaty isn't the worst you've ever seen and I am surely NOT out of my mind so please don't insult me.

One, I am not in Vietnam so China is not a problem. Two, I can kick you out of your position any time I want. Three, The Emperor is on my side. Four), I am not giving up my land final. - Shadow

shadow, you cant remove sky from his position without instigating a war with him. at that point youll be dragged into a war you can not win its either accept the treaty or face the lose of your position and lands. and the emperor can choose to side with the kampaku should he wish to. Nkbeeching (talk) 21:03, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Knights of St. John
Total: 71
 * Location: +20
 * Tactical Advantage: +3
 * Nations: Knights of St. John (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +4
 * Economic Development: +4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +7
 * Edit count: 27
 * UTC: 0*9*4*9 = 324
 * Total: 27/324*pi (3.14159265359) = 0.2617993877991667
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +8 (180,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Achaea
Total: 63
 * Location: +25
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Nations: Achaea (L) = +4
 * Military Development: +2
 * Economic Development: +2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: +8
 * Chance: +1
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: +6 (100,000)
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: 0

Result

 * ((71/(63+71))*2)-1 = 0.0597014925373134%
 * (0.059)*(1-1/(2*5)) = 0.0531%

Knights of St. John can claim 5.3% of Achaea after five years.

Discussion
Here you go SwankyJ. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 20:59, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

You need to add the motive modifier, and also Roman Empire is joining Quashi (talk) 21:13, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Saved for a later turn, lol. "<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:23, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

Knights Hospitaller (Attacker)
Total: 58+chance x 1.25
 * Location: 20
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Nations: Knights Hospitaller (L), Roman Empire (L), Theodoro (MV), Trebizond (MV) = 12/4 = 3
 * Military Development: 26/10 = 3
 * Knights: 10
 * Roman Empire: 16
 * Economic Development: 14/6= 2
 * Knights: 0
 * Roman Empire: 14
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 5 (Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: +10
 * Knights: +5
 * Romans: +5
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -5
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1/25

Cyrpus (Defender)
Total: 56+chance x 1.25
 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Cyprus (L)  = 4 = 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 10
 * Economic Development: 0
 * Cyprus: 6
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: 9 (Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack)
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25

Result

 * ((Winner/(Loser+Winner))*2)-1 = 0
 * (0)*(1-1/(2*0)) = 0

Discussion
Correcting many mistakes in the algorythm.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:11, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Where in the World...
...is northern Mesopotamia? I mean no offense - I'm just genuinely confused as to where these rebellions my doomed glorious kingdom has apparently inspired are happening. I'm currently guessing that "northern Mesopotamia" means the former Emirate of Mosul, which Mesopotamia annexed in 1419 - which I'm interpreting as the light-gray region wedged between Mamluk-teal Mesopotamia, Timurid-red Persia, and the Timurid-red White Sheep Turks on the 1415 map. Is that an acceptable approximation? If not, please let me know ASAP - my plans for this turn hinge on where northern Mesopotamia is relative to me. TankOfMidgets (talk) 01:28, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured out how to read a map. TankOfMidgets (talk) 03:48, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

...I'm assuming the White Sheeps, right? ChrisL123 (talk) 05:33, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Current State of Affairs in PMIII-ville
So, what's going on in the world? I really don't have to have to read through like 1000+ posts to figure it out, so could someone tell me just a very brief outline of what's happening? Like in Europe and Asia. Also, is China inactive? I keep posting things about China and China isn't posting anything back. Thanks y'all PitaKang- My Life for Aiur!  En Taro Tassadar 04:32, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Also, why did PMII end? PitaKang- My Life for Aiur! En Taro Tassadar 04:35, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

We all voted to end PM2. Generally it was because of ASB and implausibility, which had made the game less fun for many. Mscoree (talk) 04:39, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Ottomans

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Nations: Ottomans (L), Golden Horde (M), Georgia (M)= 8/8 = 1
 * Military Development: 14/28 = 0
 * Economic Development: 16/28 = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: N/A
 * Motive: -7
 * Chance: tbd
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 32*1.25

Mesopotamians

 * Location: 25
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * Nations: Mesopotamia (L), Mamluks (L) = 8/8 = 1
 * Military Development: 28/14 = 2
 * Economic Development: 28/16= 2+9 = 11
 * Expansion: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Motive: 14
 * Chance: tbd
 * Edit count: 0
 * UTC: 0 (0) =
 * Total: 0/0*pi (3.14159265359) =
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Vassals and Puppets: *1.25
 * Total: 94*1.25

Results

 * ((y/(y+x))*2)-1
 * ((119/(119+39))*2)-1
 * 0.5063


 * 0.5063*(1-1/(4))
 * 0.3797

The Mesopotamians can overthrow the Ottoman government in 2 years.

Discussion
Sorry about this going on top of the page. This was done on mobile, so it is probably messed up. Please fix it, if you can. 07:00, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Ottoman are being aided by Georgia (M) and Jochid Ulus (M). The economic development, according to the rules, should only add +4 with those city bonuses for the Mesopotamians (Aleppo, Baghdad, Alexandria). Also, where did the -7 motive come from for the Ottomans? We're fighting for territory of similar culture (+5), fighting for political hegemony (+7), I'm supported by the people (+4), and I'd have high troop morale (+5) if my chance is greater than +4. ChrisL123 (talk) 07:11, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

As this is my first time using this algorithm, I'm not sure I understand the rules correctly, but I get the impression that you have to recalculate the algorithm every time someone actually joins the war directly. Is that correct? TankOfMidgets (talk) 07:55, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Also - and without intending to make any accusations about anyone's character - I think it'd be best if we got a moderator from outside our region to run the numbers on this. That way, regardless of how the war ultimately turns out, no one can complain about the outcome being "biased." TankOfMidgets (talk) 08:07, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

And while I'm at it, how about we wait until the aforementioned mods show up and determine the war's final outcome before we go around dictating the "results" of an unfinished conflict? Because retroactively applying the results of 2 years of war seems a bit much to me. TankOfMidgets (talk) 08:12, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Two things: 1. I am on mobile, so it is kind of difficult for me to get into any real discussions. 2. I fixed the military aid issues, and the economic bonus of 9 comes also from the Red Sea, Mogadishu, and Mombasa bonuses (which my states control, and have been accepted in the past).

As for motive, how can you be popularly supported when you are getting sparked this badly??? Would your people support lengthening of an aggressive war which you are getting DESTROYED in? You have low morale, because you meet that motive's criterion. You also only get one main motive, which is economic (you want land). Finally, I am waging a guerrilla war. 08:27, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I will be tomorrow night. As for the current war, the algo is correct by my full understanding. Until then, 08:34, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I'd contest some of your judgments here - most notably, that it's a bit difficult to fight a guerilla war when you're advancing into enemy territory - but as I'm about to force you to recalculate your algorithm anyway, it seems like overkill. I'll probably add this to my list of orders tomorrow morning (it's past 3 AM here, and I need some sleep), but I'll post this now, before the chance totals are calculated and the outcome of the conflict is actually decided, to demonstrate that I intended to join the war before learning who won:

'''When word of the ongoing Assyrian genocide reaches T'bliisi, a furious King Giorgi immediately mobilizes the entire Georgian army and declares war on Mesopotamia; the Georgian logistical train suffers due to the lack of preparation time, but the King will brook no delays. While there is some doubt as to whether the Ottomans or the Mamluks committed the atrocity, the Georgians decide that securing northern Mesopotamia will stop the slaughter regardless. The Armenians, with whom Georgia has formed a dynastic union, are called into war by the Georgians.'''

Here are these two nations' stats and the motives I intend to use, for the record:

Georgia: Capital close (+15), Attacking (+1), Coordination (+2), High Ground (+2 - debatable, I will try and get heights to justify this tomorrow), Leader (+4), Development (6 military, not counting this turn's as it's canceled by my DoW; 4 economic = +12/+8 to the relevant scores), Motive (liberating oppressed religious kinsmen = +7; non-democratic gov't supported by people = +4, guerilla war -5; total +6), possible High Morale (Georgian infrastructure > Mesopotamian/Mamluk infrastructure; base motive > 5; would add +5); Young Nation (independence from Timurids in 1411 = 11 years old; -5); Population 364,431 (don't know your pop, can't give pts.); no war/expansion penalty (only gave supplies to Venetians, no military aid); no vassal/puppet penalty or bonus (fighting alongside Armenia, not exclusively main nation).

Armenia: Capital close (+15), Attacking (+1), Coordination (+2), High Ground (+2 - debatable, I will try and get heights to justify this tomorrow), Leader (+4), Development (4 military, 4 economic = +8/+8 to the relevant scores), Motive (liberating oppressed religious kinsmen = +7; non-democratic gov't supported by people = +4, guerilla war -5; total +6), possible High Morale (Armenian infrastructure > Mesopotamian/Mamluk infrastructure; base motive > 5; would add +5); Young Nation (independence from Timurids in 1411 = 11 years old; -5); Population 346,209 (don't know your pop, can't give pts.); no war/expansion penalty; no vassal/puppet penalty or bonus.

This post was completed at 09:27 UTC, and was my 27th edit. TankOfMidgets (talk) 09:28, February 23, 2014 (UTC)