Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''

Moderators
AP has raised a valid point. Gala and Pita have left the map game. Crim and Lurker post extremely irregularly. Only Collie, Yank, Von and myself post every turn. Mods are disappearing left right and center and without proper control this game will fall apart. I propose the election of at least one new mod, the removal of Pita and Gala from the mod list and the election of a new mod-in chief. Also Collie, I can start making maps again for the 1585 turn and onwards, no holidays for at least another 6 months :( Scandinator (talk) 05:28, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I dont know how far this will get(with the whole russia fiasco and all), but i propose my candidacy. Well, in any case, you can't get anywhere if you dont try-Lx (leave me a message) 05:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want it to sound like i brought that point up just to run for mod, but I too would like to announce my candidacy. And, I would like to see either Collie or Scan as moderator-in-chief.AP (talk) 05:41, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I propose myself as moderator, as I have given up my country and therefore would be probably the least biased if two mods went head to head (or players). Saamwiil, the Humble 15:09, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to propose myself a moderator too. Despite the Caliphate fiasco I promise to be unbiased (and educate the country and steal its money :P) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

This is a good idea, my interest has simply waned to the point in which I can't act as head mod. I'm glad to have been able to get this very successful game started, but I know that I can't devote enough time to this wiki to act as head moderator anymore. Sorry for the trouble, I'll still post as much as I can remember to. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:30, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Mod Elections
For a Mod to be elected, he must have 5 votes (may vote any number of times). Only one vote for Moderator in Chief. You may also vote against. If you decide to do so, bold your name. Elections for new mods never closes. If one of the candidates for moderator in chief has a 4 vote lead by end of day, he gets the title.

Collie

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) AP (talk) 18:57, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Scan

 * 1) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST)
 * 3) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) --Yank 22:52, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Saamwiil

 * 1) (DeanSims: Talk) 23:02, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Saamwiil

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) AP (talk)
 * 4) Airlinesguy (talk) 00:02, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) (DeanSims: Talk) 21:48, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

AP (mod now)

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 17:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC) (+)
 * 2) --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:44, January 13, 2013 (UTC) (+)
 * 3) Fed (talk) 17:55, January 13, 2013 (UTC)(+)
 * 4) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST) (+)
 * 5) AP (talk) (+)
 * 6)  [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! (-)
 * 7) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) -Lx (leave me a message)
 * 9) The Royal Guns (talk) 20:01, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Fed (mod now)

 * 1) Saamwiil, the Humble 20:11, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2013年1月14日 03:05:36 (JST)
 * 3) Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:26, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:37, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) CourageousLife (talk) 20:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:23, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

LxCaucassus

 * 1) -Lx (leave me a message)
 * 2) [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:16, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) CourageousLife (talk) 00:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Scandinator (talk) 01:04, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Are we allowed to vote for ourselves? ~AP

Saam, you can't vote thrice. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:10, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Read the instructions. And yes, one can vote for himself. Saamwiil, the Humble 19:14, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

You voted THRICE. The rules say TWICE. Take off one of your votes. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:20, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I meant any number of times, but if you want to be a stickler on language, fine, I'll take one off. Also, unless anyone votes against him, AP is a mod.  Saamwiil, the Humble 19:24, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

If you think about it, that makes no sense. If I wanted to be "biased" I would have to be a mod first. I have never been biased in any game, others see it as bias because they don't like it simply put. But it's ok, I get it; I would have done the same(for different reasons) had you run.AP (talk) 19:36, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I get your point, and I assume you understand mine. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:42, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I've taken it upon myself to change it to what I originally meant. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, you wrote the rules for this? Now I understand what you mean. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 20:13, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. I did. I meant any number of time because I thought the modship wouldn't be limited to incoming member because of space limitability but because of their quality, so if people vote for you. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:32, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Somebody forgot to put my name onto the list, so I did it-Lx (leave me a message) 21:13, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Is the voting over? Exactly how many mods are to be admitted?AP (talk) 22:56, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Not limited. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:17, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Voting should have a definate end time. It is the responsibility of the mod-in-chief to identify players that would do well as a mod and ask them to take up the role. Not vote spamming up to 5. Otherwise unworthy or unproven players my take the role of mod. In my opinion Lx, AP, Fed and Kogasa are the best candidates for a new position. Scandinator (talk) 06:05, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I understand this voting is going to end when 24 hours since the adding of this section end.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:34, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, one day has already passed, but what that 4-vote lead that you was talking about means? this means that we have to make another election to elect the mod-in chief (Scan has 4 votes, while i have 2.i understand that for a 4-vote lead to happen, he would have to have 6 votes, and i 2, for example.) or Scan already won?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:40, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

So as I see, Fed, AP and I are mods, the moderator-in-chef will arise, yes when there is a 4 point lead. Currently, it is 5 to 3. A moderator in chief isn't as urgent as new moderators, hence takes longer. People can switch around their vote for the better good if it takes too long. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:13, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Voter bribery? I don't approve of these sort of actions. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:20, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ammendments
Something I propose to you to make the game better: Nations that are close enough to each other in culture and geographival means or in dynastic unions be considered one. Hence, the Caspian states just appear as Caspia, and Scandinavia just appears as Scandinavia, and if Russia ever emerges they are just counted as Russia.

Also, arguing makes games not so fun, especially when you have to do it continuously. I suggest in discussion on a certain topic, you put 2 sections for it, 'argument for' and 'argument against', or whichever names are appropriate for the scenario. Then let the mod(s) decide which case is correct. This saves a lot of time and unnesessary arguing, considering a lot of us just argue the same point over and over and over... again.

Thirdly, the idea of 'Player Consulation'. This is where a mod starts a discussion about a mod event in which he plans to do, say, 2 turns in advance. This would keep gameplay flowing and not be such a shock to players when their nation just gets invaded by mod events, and people will be alot less frustrated. (Algeria, Russia, Caspia, etc.) Let me know what you think. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:19, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

so, wait, the fisrt thing does it mean that if moscow and Novgorod, and other russian states aided each other in a war, it would just be counted as one russia(aka4 points)? if so then I disagree.-Lx (leave me a message) 16:00, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I would propose ammending coalition alogrithms, so that it is harder to take over multiple nations. in other words, The caliphate treated the Russian States as one nation. They got 33%, and decided that it was OK to take over 4+ nations. I suggest using the old system from PMI that used to be used to determine the ammount of territory you need to take over a nation as a function of how many nations are invading.(the one that was originaly used to decide that 33%= win by one natoin.). It should have been formulated by DK during the invasion of the mughal empire. Basicaly, to take over a 2 states with a coalition, it will be harder than to take over one state with a coalition(33% for one, 50% for 2, I think 66% for 3 etc...)-Lx (leave me a message) 16:04, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm saying if Moscow and Novgorod were in a Federation, because of their geographic, cultural, linguistic etc. similarities, they'd be treated as one (Russian Federation). However, if they are not one, then they would still count as different contries. Hence, Scandinavia is one while if Burgudy helped France, they'd be seperate. But Caspia would be one. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:08, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Then you'd just have no one forming federations but large alliances instead. Not to mention alliances of smaller nations would gain an unfair advantage against larger nations. As for the coalition algorithm changes, 33% is fair considering nations in that coalition contribute to that coalition total. Plus it too creates an unfair advantage to alliances of small nations, e.g. if Novogorod tries to invade two small city states who are allied, then why should Novogorod need more of a point total to do the exact same thing which is easier to do with two separate algorithms? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:10, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

1.5?
Can I get a list of states with the 1.5 bonus right now? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:12, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

All states with this bonus haven't 5 years of existence.as such, all states created from 1577 on by popular revolt have this bonus.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:57, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Granada and co
Total: 56 x 1.5 = 84
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Granada (L), Scandinavia (M), Luxembourg (S), Aragon (M), Brandenburg (M), Burgundy (M), Calais (MV), Austria (S), Salzburg (SV), Grissons (SV) = 24/4 = 6
 * Military Development: 26
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 433
 * UTC Time: 1737
 * 1*7*3*7 = 147
 * 433/147 x pi = 9.253...
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Morocco
Total: 25
 * Location: 4 (Rabat is all the way over there)
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: Morocco (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 5/2 = 3
 * Economy: 5/2 = 3
 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = =3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 3
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 4
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
((62/(62+19.5))*2) - 1 = 52.14%

52.14 * (1-(1/(2/3))= 43.45%

Discussion
You have to have a -10 nation age to use this bonus.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:29, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Burgundy
Total:
 * Location: 1
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Burgundy (M), Calais (MV),Friesburg (MV),Munster(MV), = 13/4 = 3
 * Military Development: ??? (you cant upgrade military, economy and infrastructure all in one turn. It's one a turn)
 * Economy: ???
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 2
 * Edit Count: 1951
 * UTC Time: 0119
 * 1*1*2*2 = 4
 * 1951/4 x pi = 1532,266625
 * Nation Age: +5 (I think)
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-4

Inca
Total: 32
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: inca (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 2 = 0
 * Economy: 2 = 0
 * Infrastructure: 2
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance: 6
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
((76/(76+42)*2) - 1 = 28.81%

how much does it last

Discussion
did i do something wrong

This is metagaming and will not happen. You saw all the planning of the Incan invasion and decided to jump in before anyone else could now did you?AP (talk) 01:31, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

You also tried this with the Aztecs, and the answer is the same--not happening.AP (talk) 01:36, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

were you invading the inca's ? i didn't knew, and i've been already planning it from before, but i had to prepare for the conflict, and the Aztecs had a reason, they were isolated, the inca's are at my hand because of that i control Panama so its going to Happen if you want or not Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:32, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

"Scandinavia builds up its military and economy. Infrastructure is built up, connecting provincial capitals with the rest of the country. Nya Danmark expands by 2100 sq km. Expeditions from Africa and Asia return, with news of Japan, the civil disarray in India, and the return of a Christian nation in East Africa."

i thought we could, oh well Sine dei gloriem (talk) 22:40, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Another Resignation
I'm sorry I was gone for a few days, or else I'd have done this sooner. Never mind the shark, this game has jumped the whale, hopped the Kraken, and is currently cartwheeling over a smallish landmass the size of Canada. The formation of the Caliphate (Hence forth referred to as the 'shark), the existence of said Caliphate for 100 years despite various cultural and religious differences within it (Hence forth referred to as the 'whale'), the annexation of- well, of most to Eurasia (Hence forth referred to as the 'Kraken'), these could all have been recovered from. In fact, I'd argue that the shark and whale added some more excitement to the post Great Holy War (Hence forth referred to as 'Yes, it was plausible- ever heard of the crusades?')(just kidding, actually it will be referred to as 'GHW'), just as the Dual Khanate was falling and we were all failing to do anything about that. The Kraken was, I feel, majorly implausible, but again, could have been recovered from.

The subsequent breakup- especially the events around Russia (hence forth referred to as the 'not-so-smallish-landmass' ) the thing that really screwed this game up, for me anyway. I have a feeling that if more mods had been around, the argument wouldn't have resolved itself as it did, with a declaration of God and Alien Space Bats from Von. But I don't want to restart this argument- I don't care any more- and I bear no animosity to those who sided against me.

All metaphors over now.

Russia is hardly a cancer to this game. The true cancer was the breakup of the Mahdiate; not really anyone's fault. To those who disagree with me; kindly shut up.

I'll post the last message in 1581, stating that the Grand Duke of Muscovy now dies, heirless, so the Muscovian government asks for annexation by Novgorod.

I'll be back for PMIII, when it rolls around, sooner or... well, it might be later, though I rather doubt it. Still, the appointment of new mods might get you through this.

In conclusion, ladies, gentlemen, assorted mods, please, do not be too rough on the newly humbled state of Russia. It is a reminder of that long ago (read; a month) time when men were men, war was war, and Principia Moderni II was a plausible map game.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:22, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

Portugal
Total: 69
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Portugal (L+4) = 4
 * Military Development: 12
 * Economy: 10
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 3613
 * UTC Time: 21:06
 * 2*1*0*6 = 12
 * 3613/12 x pi = 945,8811881183269142137942119824
 * Nation Age: +5 (1385)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-1

Castille
Total: 31 or 40
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: Castille (L +4) = 4
 * Military Development: 0/3
 * Economy: 0/3
 * Infrastructure: 0/3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 1
 * Nation Age: -5 (1230)
 * Population: 7+2 = 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
69/109 - 0,5 x 2 = 0,26605504587155963302752293577982

Portugal can take 26,6% of Castillian territory.

Discussion
The 0/3 on the military/economy and infrastructure sections for castille is because i'm not sure if the NPC bonus count, as Castille technically, still has a player.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:13, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

The Mayan empire
I think we need to do something about the Mayan empire. I think it has expanded too rapidly and should be hit with another disease outbreak in which it looses its empire's furthest territories. (e.g. its Calfornian colonies, northern mexico, costa rica, etc.). What do the other mods think? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:59, January 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to make a few Indian Revolts. They are most certainly angry, and they seem almost absent. But I think the Mayans should weaken anyways because of disease. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:14, January 15, 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think "weak because of the plague" is true because, remember, it's been three generations since the Maya were exposed to smallpox. Fed (talk)