Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Algorithms
Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 4]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 5]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 5]

Abbasid Invasion  of Cyprus

 * 1420
 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate
 * Result: 16
 * Population: 7 (3.5 million)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * War exhaustion: -3
 * Kingdom of Cyprus
 * Result: 10.1
 * Population: 0.1 (50,000)
 * Motive: 7 (existential religious)
 * Government: 5 (elective monarchy)
 * War exhaustion: -2
 * Siege of Framagustra
 * Abbasids
 * Result: 4
 * Navy: 3 (100 ships)
 * Location: 4 (major city by sea)
 * Attrition: -3 (enemy coast)
 * Blunder:
 * Cyprus
 * Result: 3.5
 * Navy: 0.06 (2 ships)
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Blunder:
 * Seige of Nicosia
 * Abbasids
 * Result: 14.09
 * Military: 6.09 (20,000)
 * Location: 8 (seige to capital)
 * Blunder:
 * Cyprus
 * Result: 13.8
 * Military: 1.8 (6,000)
 * Location: 12 (seige to capital)
 * Blunder:
 * Final result
 * Cyprus: 9.1 (casualties: 200)
 * Abbasids: 15 (casualties: 350 troops, 6 ships)
 * Result: Abbasids win 164%, taking both cities but not able to annex Cyprus

​Discussion
-You didn't add Cypriot defense and/or stats -Da Kaiser (talk) 02:40, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Nor the naval force of the Hospitallers, Naxos, the Papal materiel aid etc. Callumthered (talk) 03:54, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I believe Famagusta is currently a Genoese property, but I'm not entirely certain. 05:56, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

This algorithm is so wrong. The population of Cyprus is 50k in the algorithm, and I'm going to assume it is a Non-Feudal State. This means it can raise a maximum of 1k troops.

So please explain to me how Cyprus is sending 5k to defend Constantinople and still has 6k left to defend themselves

I was under the assumption that I had a population of 75,000. And I took Fatmagusta from Genoa in the War of 1404. -Da Kaiser (talk) 14:22, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

I personally dont have a clue how much your population is. The algo said 50k so I assumed maybe it is 50k. Anyways, I think you might win this if your allies that Callum mentioned help out.

Does the algo need to be fixed or not? cause Cyprus seems to have surrendered -Nate

In case it isn't clear, the hospitallers, Naxos, and Papacy are all fighting the Ottomans, not protecting Cyprus, although the Ottoman's 60 ships are not in the algo either -Nate

King Janus despaired, however Prince James may not agree. Also I'm fighting the Ottomans in a different war with my navy which is why the Abbasids made it to Cyprus. If my fleet was there even without my army, I could have won. My only real allies are Aragon and Rome. -Da Kaiser (talk) 03:38, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Gurkani Conquest of Gazaria [1420]

 * 1420
 * Pre-War Stage
 * The Gurkani Sultanate = +105
 * Population = +104 [Gurkani Population ~ 52,000,000]
 * War Exhaustion = -3
 * Casus Belli = +1 [No Connection]
 * Government = +3 [Iqta]
 * Republic of Genoa = +4.5
 * Population = +0.5 [Genovese Population ~ 250,000]
 * War Exhaustion = -0
 * Casus Belli = +2 [Non-Existential Threat/Defending Colony]
 * Government = +2 [Merchant Republic]
 * Siege of Theodoro
 * ​The Gurkani Sultanate = +43
 * ​Army/Naval Size = +45 [Gurkani Army ~ 150,000]
 * Location = +4 [Sieging Major City]
 * Great General = +0
 * Blunder = /
 * Attrition = -6 [Mountains]
 * Republic of Genoa = +4.8
 * ​Army/Naval Size = +0.3 [Genovese Army ~ 1000]
 * Location = +12 [Very Well Fortified City]
 * Great General = +0
 * Blunder =/
 * Attrition = +0
 * Casualities
 * ​Gurkani: /
 * Genoa: /
 * Final Score
 * ​Gurkani: /
 * Genoa: /
 * Result

Bruneian War/Bruneian Revolution(1421)

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: 27.3
 * Population: 10.15 million (Total Empire Population); 7,105,252 (Core Empire Population) = + 20.3
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Beli: +2 (Crushing Rebellion)
 * Government: +7 (Theocracy)
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: 12.42
 * Population: 710,525 (Total Population) = + 1.42
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Beli: 2 + 6 = 8 (Patriotic Rebellion/Survival)
 * Government: +3 (Iq'ta)

Java Sea Front

 * 1421
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of the Java Sea
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: -2.4
 * Army/Navy Size: 426 ships (Total Empire); 298 ships (Core Empire); 80 ships (deployed, regular Majapahit); 5 ships (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = + 2.5
 * Location: 0
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: -4.1
 * Army/Navy Size: 30 ships (Total) = +0.9
 * Location: 0
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -5

Borneo Front

 * 1421
 * Battle Stage
 * Fall of Kota Batu
 * Majapahit Empire and Order of the Enlightened
 * Result: +20 (PLACEHOLDER)
 * Army/Navy Size: 203,007 (Total Empire); 142,105 (Core Empire); 45,000 (40,000 deployed, 5,000 reserve, regular Majapahit); 10,000 (deployed, Order of the Enlightened) = +15
 * Location: +8
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: N/A
 * Brunei Sultanate
 * Result: +15.8 (PLACEHOLDER)
 * Army/Navy Size: 19,211 (Total) = +5.7
 * Location: +12
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2


 * Final Stage:
 * Majapihut
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 31.3 (casualties: 7,000 troops, 5 ships)
 * Brunei
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 5.5 (casualties: 16,000 troops, 10 ships)
 * Overall Result: 400% for Majapihut

Discussion
As previously mentioned, these are all placeholder results until a moderator arrives to fix them. Oh and the lack of attrition in Kota Batu is due to the location near the Brunei River, so.........I am unsure if that accounts as coastal attrition or not. I am also unsure about Casus Beli, regarding the Majapahit Empire and the Brunei Sultanate. Any errors? Tell me in here or chat. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:08, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Could another 6 be added to my Causus Belli? I would say this would count as a patriotic revolt; perhaps the title "Bruneian War for Independence" is more fitting. -- Orange (→My wall!←) 18:06, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

The reason it's a patriotic rebellion is because at the current era, Brunei is one of your vassals; this was a plan to gain independence. -- Orange (→My wall!←) 18:15, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

And you are still dead already. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 09:25, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

The Greek Crusade

 * 1422
 * Pre-War stage
 * Crusaders
 * Result: 28.28
 * Population: 8.14 million (Denmark: 800,000, Norway: 600,000, Ragusa: 100,000, Genoa: 500,000, Papacy: 1.5 million, Rhodes: 70,000, Thringen: 40,000, Naxos: 30,000, Aragon: 1.5 million, and Milan: 4.5 million) = 16.28
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Ottoman Empire
 * Result: 27
 * Population: 9.5 million (Ottomans: 6 million, Caliphate: 3.5 million) = 19
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 3 (Sultanate)
 * Battle of Geleta
 * Crusaders
 * Result: 41.15 + blunder = 36.15(see below)
 * Military: 96,500 (Aragon, 40,000, Milan, 10,000 Demnark: 1,000, Norway: 1,000, Thringen: 500, all others: 15,600) = 13.95
 * Note: currently 59% of total military. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
 * Navy: ~390 ships = 11.7
 * Note: currently 86% of total navy. May be lessened as per religious war penalty if necessary
 * Second note: the religious war penalty's size also highly depends on the location. Jerusalem and Constantinople are not equivalent and the technology is also differennt, making longer travels easier.
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Attrition: -3 (coast)
 * Blunder:-5 (until we get official blunder I'm doing the worst case scenario for the winner)
 * Ottomans
 * Result: 43.1
 * Military:  +30  [Ottoman Army ~ 60,000, Caliphate ~40,000]


 * Note: For the record, the Ottoman turn post is actually sending 100,000
 * Navy: 9.6 (Ottomans ~250 ships, Caliphate 70 ships)
 * Location: 3.5 (major city by sea)
 * Blunder: 0
 * Final stage
 * Crusaders: 28.28 - 1.95 = 26.32
 * Ottomans: 27
 * Final result: Ottomans stalemate at 101.2% without blunder added and without Crusader penalty, so the Crusaders keep the city

Discussion
I have a great many issues with this algo but am not currently able to state them all at this time. I will do so shortly, hopefully tonight. I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions here.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:56, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, as I was saying earlier, there are some issues here that I think need to be addressed: That should be it. I await objections.
 * While my first objection was going to be the number of ships the Ottomans possessed, I now see that they have had a naval concentration for the last decade, so I recant that. However, that does bring into focus the issue of why they have such a large army alongside it. If they are a naval concentration and previous mods have said that 110,000 troops is the most the Ottomans could raise under an army concentration, I am skeptical they can maintain a large fleet and army at the same time.
 * Secondly, why is the Ottoman army counted in this algo? This battle takes place in Constantinople/Istanbul, and as Bozi himself said, the Ottoman army is at the Balkan border, all 110,000 or so of it. Not withstanding the previous issue of size, it should be clear that the army isn't where the fighting is.
 * And if someone were to say "well, it counts the entire military of the Ottomans" then I ask why the entire military of the Crusaders is not counted as well? I doubt this will be an actual objection, but it merits a response all the same.
 * I am skeptical of the size of the Crusader's forces regardless of whether they are all counted or not. The current Papal navy is around thirty ships, yet the entire coalition is given a value of 32. This coalition, I might add, includes the Mediterranean nations of Ragusa and Genoa, both of which are at the height of their power and have long naval traditions. And those are just two nations of the nations involved. While I understand that the entire navy of every nation will not necessarily be involved, only 32 ships? Really?
 * The population of the Papal States is definitely not correct. Italy in total has a population of 14 million, and the Papal States owns most of the center, including major cities like Rome, Ancona, and Bologna. Definitely more than the mere 80,000 I am presented with.
 * I believe the Teutonic Order needs to be counted in the algo as well, as I remember Eip saying he would support the crusade. If he said otherwise to someone else, please inform me.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 22:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC) Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:34, August 7, 2016 (UTC) "This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:42, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * The Ottomans have more ability to support troops than the crusaders because it is the one being invaded. That's why we have a Holy War penalty in the first place. It's not reasonable to send most of your military across Europe just to attack Muslims, but it is reasonable to deploy military which is already there due to the Siege of Constantinople. In fact, if Bozi was not navy concnetration he could send much more military, about 130,000. So 100K is actually reasonable. If you don't believe me, check out the OTL Seige of Constantinople, the Ottoman military was usually around 100,000-120,000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
 * I will try to fix the population and troop numbers for the Crusaders, but I don't have information for all of them. Oct has claimed that he has a navy of 3,000 ships, which I find very hard to believe without a source.
 * Keep in mind though, that battle occured when the Ottomans didn't have a fleet of 252 or more ships. As per the concentration system, if one is strong the other must be weaker. Since the Ottomans are naval and have been for more than a decade now, the army must be weaker as a result, otherwise the system is broken. Scraw agrees with me on this. And of course, that is dodging the location issue, which we have currently tabled.
 * Sky says that he has a total fleet of 144 ships, but he's only contributing a hundred. I don't think it would be unreasonable for Genoa and the rest of the coalition to create a fleet comparable to that of the Ottomans, if they chose to do so.

For the next round, please be sure to add the 4.5 million Milanese population, and our contributions o10k men and 50 ships. 03:44, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Also add the 40k men and 30 ships from Aragon please. —  T  I   M  (TSW • AH • MGW • Contribs ) 05:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

My population is 650k not 40k. Also my army stands at 5k not 500. I would like this to be fix to the exact numbers. - Scarlet Outlaw

Whoever finishes this algo, please remember that the rules/algo page has a set limit to the number of troops each nation can commit to a Crusade/Holy War -Nate

How is it that the Ottomans got cut on their navy when they are naval concentration? If you aren't giving them credit for navy then they should have gotten more army. You can't have it both ways. -Nate

Burgundian Invasion of Pomerania

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Burgundy (Attacking)
 * Result: 13.6
 * Population: 9.6
 * War Exhaustion: -2
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government: 3
 * Pomerania (Defending)
 * Result: 7.6
 * Population: 1.6 (Hussite population should count too)
 * War Exhaustion: -4
 * Casus Belli: Defending historical lands: +5 Existential threat +2
 * Government: 3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Burg Stargard
 * Burgundy (Attacking)
 * Result: 10.5
 * Army/Navy Size: 9
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: 0
 * Pomerania (Defending)
 * Result: 1.3
 * Army/Navy Size: 1.8 (Hussite Army should count too)
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: 0
 * Outcome:
 * Naval Battle of Stettin
 * Burgundy
 * Result: 23.1 (+10% Naval Concentration: 25.41)
 * Navy Size: 120 ships = 3.6
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great Admiral: 20 (John de Luxembourg)
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: -3
 * Pomerania:
 * Result: 0.52 (+10% Naval Concentration: 0.572)
 * Navy size: 34 ships = 1.02
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great Admiral:
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: 0
 * Outcome:


 * Final Stage:
 * Pomerania
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Result:
 * Casualties: total (?)
 * Burgundy
 * Cities Occupied: Burg Stagard
 * Result:
 * Casualties:
 * Final result: Unconditional Pomeranian Surrender

Discussion
Promotion of John de Luxembourg to great admiral approved by MPmod. I am that guy (talk) 00:17, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Blunder done by Natemod. I am that guy (talk) 00:22, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I think Hussite rebels count too.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:18, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Result declared by Skyboimod. I am that guy (talk) 16:07, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Pomeranian/Hussite conquest of Brandenburg

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Pomerania/Hussites (Attacking)
 * Result: 13.6
 * Population: ??? (Hussite + Pomeranian pop)
 * War Exhaustion: ???
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government: 3
 * Brandenburg (Defending)
 * Result: 7.6
 * Population: 1.6
 * War Exhaustion: ???
 * Casus Belli: Defending historical lands: +5 Existential threat +2
 * Government: 3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of ???
 * Pomerania/Hussites (Attacking)
 * Result: 10.5
 * Army/Navy Size: ???
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Attrition: 0
 * Brandenburg (Defending)
 * Result: 1.3
 * Army/Navy Size: ???
 * Location: 3.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Attrition: 0
 * Outcome:


 * Final Stage:
 * Brandenburg
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Result:
 * Casualties: total
 * Pomerania/Hussites
 * Cities Occupied: ???
 * Result:
 * Casualties:
 * Final result:

Discussion
my army score would not be that low and the location would be higher for me would it not. With Blood and Iron (talk) 12:37, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Invasion of Epirus

 * 1421
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
 * Result: 8.06
 * Population: +0.06
 * War Exhaustion: +0
 * Casus Belli: +5
 * Government: +3
 * Epirus (Defending)
 * Result: 6.4
 * Population: +0.4
 * War Exhaustion: +0
 * Casus Belli: +3 (Existential threat to land not historically connected to defenders)
 * Government: +3
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Arta
 * Duchy of Naxos (Attacking)
 * Result: 0.62
 * Army/Navy Size: +0.12 (400)
 * Location: +3.5
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: +0
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result: 1.09
 * Army/Navy Size: +0.09 (300)
 * Location: +4
 * Great General: +0
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition: +0
 * Final Stage:
 * Duchy of Naxos
 * Result: 8.68
 * Epirus
 * Result: 7.49
 * Overall Result: Naxos wins with 116%. The Epirote forces retreat and Naxos captures Arta, along with the surrounding land (present day Arta Region, Aktio-Vonitsa Region, and the Amfilochia Region). Naxos loses 50 men and Epirus loses 75 men.

Discussion
NathanialPrice (talk) 01:42, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Can a Mod please add the blunder to the algorithm?

Done.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:33, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Wait, wouldn't the Ottomans become involved in this since Epirus is an Ottoman vassal? —  T  I   M  (TSW • AH • MGW • Contribs ) 23:39, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Bahmanid Conquest of Khandesh [1421]
Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Khandesh Sultanate


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids
 * Result: +37
 * Population: +34 [Bahmanid Population ~16 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -1
 * Casus Belli: +3 [Attacking Historical Enemy]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Khandesh
 * Result: +11
 * Population: +3 [Khandesh Population ~1.5 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +5 [Existential against Historical Enemy]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Asirgarh
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +72.5
 * Army/Navy Size: +72 [Bahmanid Army= 170,000 men and 700 elephants]
 * Location: +4.5 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: -0
 * Khandesh (Defending)
 * Result: +26.38
 * Army/Navy Size: +24.38 [Khandesh Army= 11,250 men and 700 elephants]
 * Location: +6 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -4
 * Attrition: -0
 * Casualties: (difference of 45.62)
 * Bahmanids: 11,220 men, and 46 elephants
 * Khandesh: 2,250 men and 140 elephants
 * Final Score:
 * Khandesh loses w/score of -34.62. Over 200% score difference.
 * Overall Result: Khandesh is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Castillian Reconquest of Morocco [1422]

 * Pre War Stage
 * Castile:17.6
 * Population:8.6
 * War Exhust:0
 * CB:+3
 * Government:+5
 * Berber Morocco: 13.8
 * Population:3.8
 * War Exhust:0
 * Cb:+3+2
 * Government:+5
 * Castile Marches on Fez
 * Castile: 16.5
 * Numbers: 45k men=12
 * Location:+8 (Assault on City)
 * Attrition: -6
 * Blunder:5
 * Morocco:10
 * Numbers:3
 * Location:+12
 * Blunder:5
 * Final Stage
 * Castile
 * 17.6+8.7=26.3
 * Morocco
 * 13.8-6.5=7.3-15 (Capital Occupied)=-7.7+8.7=1
 * Result
 * Castile takes Fez and Morocco collapses.

Are you sure you won't suffer attrition? The city of Fez is surrounded by the Atlas Mountains so I am not sure how you managed to skip over the Mountains. Your algo justifies it by saying "Battle takes place in city" which is quite amusing because for the battle to take place within the city, it would mean your army crossed over the mountains and toppled the city gates to enter the city... neither of which happened. So, as far as I see it, you should suffer -6 in Attrition

I justify it withthis map and this map,both of which place the city of Fez North of the Atlas Mountains, not surrounded by them. I will post further refrence maps at the end of this post. The Wikipedia article for Fez states that it is located in the Atlas Range, however refrencing severalmaps place Fez and the route my forces would march outside of the Atlas Mountains. Now if I was marching from the South or East, I would have to cross them, but not from the Northwest. I can post more reference maps if needed. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I suppose you are a bit right. However, whilst it isn't completely surrounded by the Atlas Range, the ciy is not on flatlands either. The following two maps prove that the city is in fact present on a high-altitude terrain
 * http://www.worldatlas.com/img/areamap/b67449d3efb49bb5a5271592d2505f6b.gif
 * https://nicholasconley.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/morock.gif?w=534

However, to be more close to the truth and how the scenario truly is, I decided to check a satellite image of the area. The result is the following which clearly depicts the terrain North/North West of the city being mountainous
 * http://i63.tinypic.com/5d5sfn.png

Mamma mia, che buona algo! Anyways, blunder -5 and -5 and no attrition. It's a hills/rough terrain at most then, y'see, there's a big difference between those two, atleast that's what I've learnt from my mountaineering years.

SkyGreen24 18:56, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Bahmanid-Malwa War [1422]
Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Malwa Sultanate


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids
 * Result: +62
 * Population: +60 [Bahmanid Population ~30 million*]
 * War Exhaustion: -2
 * Casus Belli: +1 [No Reason]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Malwa
 * Result: +14
 * Population: +5 [Malwa Population ~2.5 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +6 [Existential Defending the crown]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Shadiabad
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +76.5
 * Army/Navy Size: +79.1 [Bahmanid Army= 170,000 men and 700 elephants +10% concenctration]
 * Location: +4.5 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: -0
 * Malwa (Defending)
 * Result: +19.6
 * Army/Navy Size: +14.6 [Malwa Army= 18,750 men and 300 elephants]
 * Location: +6 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: -0
 * Casualties: (difference of 59.5)
 * Bahmanids: 11,220 men, and 46 elephants
 * Malwa: 12,038 men and 20 elephants
 * Final Score:
 * Malwa loses w/score of -44.5. Over 200% score difference.
 * Overall Result: Malwa is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Discussion

 * See my main post for 1422 for my source.The Guardian of Forever (talk) 00:59, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Sino-Japanese War of Korean subjugation [1423] (This has issues)
Bahmanid Sultanate vs. Malwa Sultanate


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Japan /China


 * Result: + 28
 * Population: +21 (Japan) +228 (China)
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +1 (I don't see the connection)
 * Government: +6 [Celestial empire]
 * Korea
 * Result: +23.4
 * Population: +13.4 [Korea Population ~6.7 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +4 [ Existential Defending the crown]
 * Government: +6 [Celestial Empire] -?not sure how this works(Nate)?
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of the Korean Coast
 * Japan (Attacking)
 * Result:  =  5.1
 * Army/Navy Size: (230) = 6.6
 * Location: +4.5 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: -3
 * Korea(Defending)
 * Result: 16
 * Navy: 500 ships =  15
 * Location: +6 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: -0
 * Casualties:
 * Japan
 * Korea:
 * Final Score:
 * Korea: 23.4
 * Japan: 17.1
 * Overall Result: 136.84% in favour of the Korean navy
 * Needs mods to check this but the naval should all be good since Nate is being such a stickler. I stomped Korea off the sea. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)
 * KIM JONG-SEO I CHOOSE YOU!

Discussion
This algo has certain issues: Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  02:09, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Need some help since ive never done this algo before Feud Sig
 * China never said it was invading. It merely allowed Japan to invade
 * China has no intention to annex korea or allow it to be annexed, so it is not existential
 * Invading from an Island obviously needs a naval algo, which is exactly why Japan couldn't invade Korea otl until the 20th century
 * Considering Japan and Korea are both naval concentrations, why is there an army algo in the first place? Did your navies transmute into soldiers?
 * Korea's maximum military is 134,000 by its population (again, how can Korea or Japan use so many land troops with a naval concentration?)
 * I'm leaving Korea as Celestial Empire only because I don't know enough about East Asia to say otherwise

I actually maintain a port city right next to korea... so yeah i dont need a naval algo to transport troops to my own port city right next to Korea. If thats an issue than China allowed me to invade and i went through Chinese Territory. As for my concentration its not about number of troops its about their efficiency. I can field around 200,000 or so. As for navies. As for Korea being annexed, its nominally falling under a complicated Sino-Japanese agreement regarding Korea which will be discussed at length in a treaty between China and Japan. Also when does it say in the concentrations i cant have an Army as well as a Navy. The Focus is to just give precedence for one over the other and give a bonus for doing that focus. Historically the French did have a fleet just not a very good one. While it would be able to compete in its heydey with the Portuguese or Spanish Fleets, the British was out of the question cause the British naval focus made their island impregnable. This also however did not discount the fact the British spent well beyond their means on multiple occassions to fight and wipe out the french the most notable being the napoleonic wars where they continued on funding their allies and fielding relatively large armies to contend with the French. As for the fact of Korea not being invaded til the 20th century thats untrue. Invasions have happened both ways, the 1200's for an invasion into Japan by the mongols, and then the 15th century with a large Japanese invasion force which persisted and was beaten back by Koreans with Chinese support.

Either way ive won and me and China have a pre-existing agreement concerning Koreas jurisdiction post war Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Navy concentration means you can't have as much army as you would be able to given your population. Your population can support 200,000 troops, if you had a small navy, but you declared your concentration on navy instead. If you already have a port city in Korea you have already defeated the purpose of being in this war, as China is only giving you access to the peninsula. All the invasions between Korea and Japan before the 20th century failed because the militaries were defeated at sea. Neither the Mongols nor Japanese ever landed on the coast. England would need a naval algo to invade France, despite being close in the channel, and Korea and Japan are much farther away than them. So no, this isn't official until you have the naval algo. That's my final word, so you will need the consensus of other mods if you disagree. Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  03:52, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah it says that nowhere in the rules. It just says a 10% bonus is applied to the area in which you have a concentration in. Nowhere does it force me to reduce my army size to compensate which in reality doesnt happen in an era like this. That might starting to be true in the 1600's and 1700's when a more proffessional and expensive standing army was the case but i think the lack of applied bonus works enough here.

Besides that i think it goes without saying i would crush Koreas navy since guess what i have navy focus to their Army focus and decidedly beat them on the land as it is. Also you are wrong once again in the success of invasions by sea. The Mongol invasion did in fact touch down at one point (there were multiple invasions) and the Japanese fought them on the coast. And in the case of Japans invasion of korea in the 1500's 200,000 troops arrived with little to no naval molestation to begin with. Besides i have a giant natural port that i own on the coast that i can land troops that is literally within spitting distance of the Border. Also im pretty sure if you are going to cut my army size A FULL 50,000 is more than plenty to be cutting. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Bozi's normal army of 100,000 was cut down to 60,000 due to his navy concentration. Safe to be consistent. Also, while both of those invasions did have some landings the vast cause of their defeat was at sea (the Mongol forces were wiped out in a storm and the Japanese were defeated by the admiral Yi Sun-Sin) Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  04:24, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Please, Feud, lengthening an argument does not affect whether or not you're wrong. I can see already several issues with your algorithm. First it assumes that China allows an invasion of Korea. Firstly, the treaty in which Korea is subjugated as a protectorate specifically states that China is obliged to protect it. If China would want Korea to stay put, it would have to exercise its obligations, which is opposite of your implausible little collaboration (which is really fishy). Second, you stated there's no Great General for Korea. There is. Kim Jong-seo, who co-led an attack against the Jurchens that persisted until the Songhua River, many miles north of the peninsula. Second, there's King Sejong the Great (he had a honorific at the end of his name for a reason), who also co-led the attack against the Jurchens and managed to easily repel wokou pirates and invade Tsushima in 1419 in the Ōei War. Third, despite your naval focus, Korea has a probably stronger (but probably smaller) navy. Korea at the earlier models of panokseon (or turtleships) at this time, which were equipped with gunpowder weapons and had spikes to discourage pirates from setting foot on the ship. Japan meanwhile, has a navy mostly composed of merchant vessels. Fourth, Korea has a way higher population density, especially in the areas you are trying to invade, and thus, resistance is thick. Korea also has gunpowder and the ability to manufacture gunpowder weapons (it has had these since the Goryeo dynasty) whilst Japan has none. I doubt China would give you the secret of gunpowder making. Fifth, why would Korea be a threat to Chinese interests (as stated by his turn). Korea has openly admitted Chinese "superiority" and wish to become a tributary state once again. Meanwhile, Japan treats itself as an equal, pays no tribute, and even subjugated an important Chinese trading partner (the Kingdom of Tondo) as a tributary state. If anything, Japan would be targeted by China. That is all.

I did some stuff after reading the walls of text SkyGreen24 12:26, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

How is my navy smaller when i have a naval concentration and a higher population and merchant marine base. This algo makes absolutely no sense from the naval perspective. Im requesting a Mod other than Nate since there is some fuckery about.
 * Eh, I agree, Korea sent 227 ships against (at least) 300 ships (number of destroyed ships) in the Ōei War. Assuming the ratio will be the same, Korea will send 174 ships. I still think Korea has around 400–500 ships as a whole. -Candies

Also Candies, for future reference, the MODS decide if you get a great General not you. Period end of story If you didnt not request one or had it granted, then you dont have one. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Sejong the Great should count as great general, not admiral -Nate

Yi Jong-mu is a general, yet he's the one who led the Ōei War (successfully won the Japanese), so I think he can be counted as a Great Admiral.

Japan's naval forces were easily defeated by Yi Sun-Sin, thanks to skill and the panokseon (more famously known as the turtle-ship), which only Japanese naval vessels had an ironclad roof, numerous cannons, and other features that deterred pirates from setting foot or gave them an advantage in confrontations. Korea never lost control of the sea. Japan only got far because of Portugese weaponry and tough training, whereas Korea was ill-prepared and faced political strife at the time. In this situation, China is obliged to protect Korea. Korea is not under strife, and is well-prepared. –Candies

Khmer-Champa war (1423)

 * Pre-War Stage
 * Khmer
 * Population: +7
 * War Exhaustion: N/A
 * Casus Belli: +4
 * Government: +5
 * Total: +16
 * Champa
 * Population: +2
 * War Exhaustion: N/A
 * Casus Belli: +6
 * Government: +5
 * Total: +13


 * Battle Stage
 * Khmer
 * Troops: +13.8 (40,000 troops, 60 ships)
 * Location: +4
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod Please
 * Attrition: 0
 * Total: +17.8
 * Champa
 * Troops: +6.6 (10,000 troops, 21 ships)
 * Location: +1
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: Mod please
 * Total: +7.6


 * Final Stage
 * Khmer
 * +33.8
 * Champa-10.2
 * +10.4 (20.6-10.2)
 * Result: Khmer wins, takes Champa in one year.

Mogadishu-Mtwara War

 * 1427


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Mogadishu
 * Result: 98.94
 * Population: +91.94[Mogadishu population ~ 9,700,000 Bahmanis-45 million]
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Attacking historic enemy (Swahili City States) +3
 * Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
 * Mtwara
 * Result: 9.2
 * Population: 0.2 (100,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: Existential Historic enemy +5
 * Government: Oligarchy/Council +4
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Mtwara
 * Mogadishu and Bahmanids
 * Result: 11.91
 * Army Size: 29,000 (20,000 Mogadishu soldiers, 9,000 Bahmani Soldiers= 8.7
 * Navy Size: 145 Ships (120 Mogadishu, 25 Bahmanis Ships)= 3.6*1.1(Naval Focus)+0.75=4.71
 * Location: Near seat of government, along sea +4.5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition:  Naval -3
 * Mtwara


 * Result: 2.46
 * Army Size: 2,000 Soldiers = 0.6
 * Navy Size: 12 Ships = 0.36
 * Location: Defending near seat of government +4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder: -3
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Mogadishu and Bahmanids
 * Mtwara
 * Complete destruction of army, Capital captured
 * Overall Result: 2000% in favor of Mogadishu Bahmanids alliance, Mtwara conquered by Mogadishu
 * Overall Result: 2000% in favor of Mogadishu Bahmanids alliance, Mtwara conquered by Mogadishu

Kuzir Civil War (1428) [Needs to be redone]

 * 1428
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Songhai & Rebels (Attacking)
 * Result: +20
 * Population: +10 (5,000,000)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +6
 * Government: +4
 * Loyalists (Defending)
 * Result: +38
 * Population: +25 (12,456,250)
 * War Exhaustion: 0
 * Casus Belli: +6
 * Government: +7
 * Battle Stage
 * Kuzir Civil War
 * Songhai & Rebels (Attacking)
 * Result: +29
 * Army/Navy Size: +30 (100,000 troops)
 * Location: +5
 * Great General: 0
 * Blunder: -2
 * Attrition: -4 (Jungle)
 * Loyalists (Defending)
 * Result: +155.5
 * Army/Navy Size: +108.5 (300,000 troops/401 ships/+10% army concentration: +6.5)
 * Location: +7
 * Great General: +45 (Mohammad Benkan)
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: 0
 * Final Stage:
 * Songhai & Rebels
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Casualties: 90,000 troops dead
 * Result: 49
 * Loyalists
 * Cities Occupied: 0
 * Casualties: 30,000 troops dead
 * Result: 193.5
 * Overall Result: 394.89% in favor of the loyalists. Songhai and rebels defeated, and the integrity of the Kuzir Empire maintained.

Discussion
Viva, just to be more clear, the civil war in the core of Benin is a separate party from the Songhai rebellion. You can't defeat them both in one battle. Also, with the Songhai independence they take much of the outer vassals/territories outside of the core of Benin, giving them roughly equal or slightly less population than Benin. But that won't matter until the next turn when you send an algo against Songhai itself -Nate

That bit with Songhai is ASB. How did a nation that was largely dominated by a single group manage to take over an entire region that never belonged to them to begin with? To declare independence from Benin would require the old nobles to Songhai to still have support in the region, which they don't. When the Jews rebelled against the Romans, they didn't take all the land from Anatolia to Egypt. They only took the land they had a presence in; Judea. Songhai doesn't control that much land since many of the inhabitants are from Benin's core. And why would lands conquered by Songhai want to rebel and join their conquerors, when life under Benin was safer and freer? None of this is adding up. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 00:46, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

Chimu Alliance-Quzco War (1428)


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Chimu Alliance
 * Result: 17
 * Population: 4,500,000 (9)
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli: 3
 * Government:5
 * Quzco 11.2
 * Result:
 * Population: 600,000 (1.2)
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli: 2+3
 * Government:5
 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of Quzco
 * Chimu Alliance
 * Result: 21
 * Army/Navy Size: 75000 =22.5
 * Location: 4.5
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition: -6
 * Quzco
 * Result: 15.6
 * Army/Navy Size: 12000 = 3.6
 * Location: 12
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Chimu Alliance
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 16
 * Quzco
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result: 11.2-5.4= 5.7
 * Overall Result: Chimu and friends win 275%, completely annexing Cuzco

Discussion
MODS PLEASE CHECK THIS

Made it a bit harder on Chimu by making Cuzco better fortified, but the result is a clear Chimu victory -Nate

Tondo Conquest of Madja-as (OTL Panay)

 * 1428
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Kingdom of Tondo,Huangdom of Ma-I, Huangdom of Pangasinan
 * Result: 21
 * Population: 17 (8.5 million combined)
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: 1 (No connection)
 * Government: +3 (Feudal Monarchy)


 * Madja-as
 * Result: 12.6
 * Population: 1.6 (800,000)
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Bell: +7 (Existential, Defending historic lands)
 * Government: +4 (Oligarchy/Council)


 * Battle Stage
 * Battle of the Sibuyan Sea


 * Tondo, Ma-I, Pangasinan
 * Result: 4.82 (tentative)
 * Army/Navy Size: 4.32 (120 ships+10% naval concentration)
 * Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
 * Great General/Admiral: (none)
 * Attrition: Along enemy coast (-3)
 * Blunder:


 * Madja-as
 * Result: 4.1 (tentative)
 * Army/Navy Size: .6 (20 ships)
 * Location: 3.5 (Near a city)
 * Great General/Admiral: (none)
 * Blunder:


 * Casualties
 * Tondo and Vassals:
 * Madja-as:

=176% in favor of Tondo Navy. Path for naval invasion cleared
 * Final Score:
 * Tondo: 21
 * Madja-as: 11.88

Gujarat War [1428]
Bahmanids vs. Gujarat


 * Pre-War Stage
 * Bahmanids
 * Result: +68
 * Population: +64 [Bahmanid Population ~32 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -1
 * Casus Belli: +2 [Trade War]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Gujarat
 * Result: +11
 * Population: +4 [Gujarat Population ~2 million]
 * War Exhaustion: -0
 * Casus Belli: +4 [Existential in Trade War]
 * Government: +3 [Itqa']
 * Battle Stage
 * Siege of Diu
 * Bahmanids (Attacking)
 * Result: +89.8
 * Army/Navy Size: +82.8 [Bahmanid Army= 180,000 men, 900 elephants and sixty ships]
 * Location: +8 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -1
 * Attrition: -0
 * Gujarat (Defending)
 * Result: +39.25
 * Army/Navy Size: +32.25 [Gujarat Army= 15,500 men, 800 elephants, and 120 ships]
 * Location: +12 [Center of Goverment]
 * Great General: N/A
 * Blunder: -5
 * Attrition: -0
 * Casualties: (difference of 50.55)
 * Bahmanids: 18,000 men, 90 elephants and 6 ships
 * Gujarat: 5,150 men, 240 elephants, and 40 ships
 * Final Score:
 * Gujarat loses w/score of -39.55. Over 200% score difference.
 * Overall Result: Gujarat is conquered by the Bahmanids.

Current Map
1427



Changes to Current Map
'''Add additions, complaints, or changes under here. If your changes were removed, it's because they were added to the next version.'''

I made a mistake in my earlier post here: Gujarat is not a vassal of Delhi, Garjat is. Also, the Bahmanids have conquered Gujarat.The Guardian of Forever (talk) 01:54, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

Leaves of Absence
If you plan on leaving the wiki for a while and will not be able post in the game for a while, please leave a message here telling us for how long you will be leaving and whether or not you have someone else you would like to play as your nation.

I will be leaving today (thursday) and will return on sunday. It will be very nice if someone does my turns for me. - Scarlet Outlaw

AM will be posting as Milan for the next week, as I will be out of town without my laptop or phone. Thank you, Andreas! 22:39, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

I'll be on holiday for 4-5 days, so I'll leave control of Pskov with Thewolvesden for the time being. EDIT: Seems my laptop is breaking down, battery dead and one of the two hinges is destroyed. Unknown when it will be fixed. Supergamer1 (talk) 13:10, July 24, 2016 (UTC)

I have to break off my Pacific Northwest trip due to a bronchitis. I need to fly back to Vienna and I need people to post for me and the guys I promised to post for, Rex and Super. AM, the King of the Banat (talk) 06:45, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

I could do that Andy, just tell me what should i post on chat.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:36, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

I am dealing with some issues IRL and the Past few days have told me that the likelyhood of me being able to post untill at least monday will be hampered significantly.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:48, August 5, 2016 (UTC) I will be gone canping from August 7-August 13, if someone could post as Denmark that would be grest. -KawaiiKame.

Due to my obvious over-involvement in the game (leading to some bad cases of bias), I am taking a week off from the game. Please, someone (probably Rimp, I trust him the most) leave me a message on my talk page if my nation is critically needed at any time -Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:24, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

As it stands today i found out some very bad medical news concerning one of my family memebers and i will be withdrawing from PMIV on these grounds. I will probably not be on as much but might still be around as i work on my TL and such. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Alright, THAT IS IT! I officially quit. I want nothing to do with PMIV and I much less want anything to do with any of the moderators involved and their rubbish. You know that? If you think I am arse, then you NOW made me one. For all I care, this game better be dead by the time I come back. And honestly, hopefully, I avoid this game like the plague and any subsequent games. Now, I am honestly done. D-O-N-E. Done! So, honestly, I can at best give you the mother of all insults if I could come up with one. Lousy wankers! Now, to the rest of you, I suggest you do the same. So, if anyone wants to boycott this game, feel free to. I know I will. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 03:24, August 14, 2016 (UTC)

General Discussion
I just noticed the Roman Empire's post for this year and it seems the player is ignoring what happened when I was the Roman Empire.Such as the fact that in growing fear of Papism we cut funding the Catholic ones when earlier the Romans were reconciliating with the Catholics. Weird. --The Epic Dragon (talk) 17:43, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Still possible to join?
Hi. I missed the start of the game due to injuries (wasn't able to use my PC because of it), so just wanted to know if it was still possible to join the game. Zamarak500 (talk) 02:57, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

It is still possible to join the game! It's never too lae. -KawaiiKame

New Reference Maps?
Can we get some more reference maps, specifically for south america and central america? -Nova

I fully agree on this proposal. Also, on the reference map of India, there seems to be more states than on the signup list for South Asia, and no sign of Delhi? Could we have a more labeled version of that?The Guardian of Forever (talk) 02:57, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, reference maps of Central and South America are dearly needed. Cour *talk* 23:32, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

We need some reference maps over here. [North-Central-South America] <span style="background:-webkit-gradient span style="background-color:black; border:4px ridge red; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;">  <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: red; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Ungern von Sternberg   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: red; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   01:39, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Am I a Vassal?
Ok, can someone tell me if the Duchy of Athens (which I'm playing) is a vassal? Cause I got my post cancelled because I was said to be a vassal. However, when I read the list of nation, the Duchy of Athens is independent, although Athen is a vassal. I'm confuse, so if someone could help me on that, it would be great. Zamarak500 (talk) 07:11, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yes the Duchy of Athens is a Vassal of Genoa, the mods jus haven't updated the nation list so that is why Athens is still on there. -Oct

So Can I still play them or I need to chang esince they are vassals (and I fucked up when chosing my nation)? Zamarak500 (talk) 03:50, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.
 * Benin
 * While I understand West Africa had a history of ship building, I find in highly unlikely that, at this point in time, your nation would allow its Land Based power to take a back seat to Naval based power. ~Edge
 * Burgandy
 * Same situation as above, Burgundy doesn't have really any reason to focus on its navy. I understand Flanders gives you acess to the sea but by the same vein, the bulk of your nation is land locked. ~Edge

Discussion
The reason I made burgundy navy focused is because it's set a new focus on its maritime economy by way of the low country possessions, already wealthy trade cities on their own. It's been expanding its merchant fleet these past few years, and when there's a large merchant fleet, a sizable navy is needed to maintain its merchants safety. Since the income from the low country territories is quite substantial, safeguarding the sources of that income would be a reasonable course of action, hence, naval focus. I am that guy (talk)

Ok I will accept that response. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I decided on the naval focus given that Benin's army is the largest in West Africa and the nation has no major enemies on its borders to contend with. Given that the Oba has the last say on all military affairs, he can easily define the needs of the nation's defenses now that Oyo (Benin's only real enemy) is gone. Benin has jungles on both sides, two weak kingdoms to its north, and nothing but water to its south. As the Oba knows of the wider world around Benin, and does not trust Mali with trade with Morocco and North Africa, using the sea route Benin discovered would have been the most realistic choice for the nation, securing the trade needs of the empire. The army is strong, but not needed for the foreseeable future. Focusing on the sea is the only rational choice for Benin at this time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:55, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain where you got those ship designs from? I looked online for historical West African ships and found nothing of that size.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:50, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

There is a Nigerian forum which pulled together the research on traditional West African ship designs here. I based the designs of the Benin vessels off of that information, as well as the information that states such as Mali and Benin had sailing vessels for trade along the Niger River, while Mali itself had ships not unlike those in North Africa and Iberia. Given Mali used the Niger for trade with the south, Benin would no doubt have routinely witnessed these vessels firsthand coming down the river, and learned from their designs and operation. Further, an excerpt from the Journal of African History states that African war canoes were rather massive at 80 ft in length and 7-8 ft wide and typically had sails for navigation. Also, they had to be deep to carry 100+ men, their food, equipment, sleeping mats, and weapons so as to prevent capsizing ("...sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats." –Journal of African History). Such vessels like these here have been built for ages in West Africa (the latter image showing a traditional shipbuilder), and were typically equal to are larger than vessels such as the caravel, which itself was typically about 40-50 ft long. These vessels here were actually built for deep-water seafearing and are rather large in size, and their designs have not deviated from those of the past. Though these modern designs use motors, in the past sails would have been present on them. Thus, it would not have been to difficult based on the knowledge possessed at the time to increase the vessels in terms of size and depth, as the knowledge was fairly common for the West African kingdoms of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:30, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw those designs on the actual website that you mentioned earlier, but the main question I have is where you are getting the size. You mention yourself that these vessels could manage 100 or so men, but I question the notion that you are able to build ships with five times that number or the motivation to do so. If you could provide some sort of proof in those issues that would be good.

"<font color="#AACC99">This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:57, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Can you add the Chimu Empire, and give us concentration on Army Building? -Nova

I've switched to army since it will be easier to get it passed and less controversial. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:30, July 31, 2016 (UTC)

I've added Mogadishu with naval focus, can some mod approve this? - Fallacyman (talk)

I added the Majapahit with a naval focus. Any moderators to approve? Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:16, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Mod Elections of 8/11/2016
Hi all. We have decided to have mod elections for a new moderator. Now the three canidates in question are Callum, Cour, and Nic, and they where decided from a list of 9 possible canidates selected by the mods.

To Vote, you need a google account. Either make one or use an existing one. If this is a problem reach out to me and we will talk. You will use this link.

The way voting works is simple. You rank the canidates based on your prefrence. Only ONE will be chosen as mod, so you need to rank them as your  first, second, or third choice. If you select two first choices, your vote will be thrown out. Every First choice gets a canidate three points, every second gets a canidate two points, and every third gets a canidate one point. This is to avoid a plurality.

Any questions approch me in chat or on my talk page. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL.

EDIT: We will use STV as it is more accurate. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL