Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Useful Resources:

A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
Archives: Page 1 Page 2 Page 3

Still actual ! :) 1983: Doomsday background story & interview with Col. Stanislaw Petrov (though in German)
SPIEGEL ONLINE (German news magazine) in his story series "One day in history (EinesTages)" this links )Xi&#39;Reney 08:42, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Any chace for a translation?SouthWriter 17:10, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Spanish Republic
I need help. I create a poll about whether the Spanish Republic should be integrated into PdOr or remain independent, in the ATL is planning a referendum to take place shortly, it would be good if the final decision will be decided by the highest number of votes.

The bad thing is not to create a survey, Who can tell me?Tristanbreiker 08:28, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

What should happen to the Spanish Republic Intergate with PdOr Remain independant

Somali Civil War
Its allready been established by me and some other writers that the Somali civil war still took place in this timeline and i'v started and article to detail it. I'd like some ideas on what happened in the war, I.E why it started and what involvement Puntland & Somaliland (The two most organised idependent regions) would have had in it. I'd also like to know how people think it would end out of the options in the poll.Vegas adict 21:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

How would the Somali Civil war end? LoN Intervention Somaliland/Puntland suporting tribes in the region and turning it into a place for wars between their puppet organisations. CAMC Intervention WAU Intervention Joint CAMC/WAU new Somali Federal Government It doesn't end.

The LoN is way too overextended. They are not going to get involved in this war. Also may I suggest another option: why not have the war still be ongoing? Mitro 13:27, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Chaos vs Order
I think that we've reached the tipping point in this timeline - meaning - I think that that we're at the cusp of things starting to get more ordered, with a full "restoration" by the end of 30-50 years' time.

With the LoN and the Southern Hemisphere helping to restore the north, it would seem to me that the various nations will be better able to establish and maintain order. We're not out of the woods, and things could still go wonky, but as far as I'm concerned, I think that we're hitting the point where we should see more restoration continuing, more centers of power exerting control over chaos.

It'll still take 50 years for peace and prosperity to be restored, but by and large, I think things should be on parity with here by 2060 at the latest. Louisiannan 17:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on that issue, my friend. We should at it to the WCRB Future Geopolitical Outlook page, which still needs some work done on it regarding the future of the USSR, SAC and the CANZ.HAD 17:50, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

Unedited Map
I'm verry sorry this is a bit off topic but I would like to know where you found the map you used for your world map and if you could show me where to find it for my own purposes. I've been searching the internet for a few days and have yet to find one so large or detailed than this one. 209.208.106.248 21:01, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It came from Wikipedia. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BlankMap-World-large.png .  This section is in the wrong part of this page, but I'll leave it here for a day so you have a chance to see the response.
 * Moved. Benkarnell 19:46, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

The Plausibility Singularity
I have a theory on the future of the TL. At some point any new nation/survivor state proposal is going to be presumptively obsolete. As more of the map is filled in and as we cancel out the areas that are unlivable, the probability of any new nation proposal being marked as obsolete is going to increase since it will either contradict the already extensive history of the TL or just be implausible. We are already starting to see this with the survivor state proposals for the United Kingdom. I also predict the same thing will begin to happen soon in North America due to that is where the most survivor state proposals are being created. The last place that will be affected by this phenomenon will most likely be Africa, due to the lack of work people have put in on the continent since this TL was created (though thanks to the efforts of Oer and Vegas that has not been the case). South America and Oceania have already crossed this point.

So what happens when it becomes next to impossible to graduate a new nation proposal? Here are some theories I have:


 * We are going to start seeing less nation profiles and more articles on other subjects in the post-Doomsday world.
 * Some editors will find substitutes for nation creation. This could include creating profiles on the subdivisions of the different states (like the individual states of PUSA) and more defunct nations that existed but were absorbed by a present day state (Cape Breton is a good example of this).
 * More articles are going to be put up for review (like how Prussia was) in an effort to free up some space for some plausible nation creation. We already have seen that with the complaints that Superior is unlikely to have gained control of southern Ontario because the likelihood of strong Canadian survivor states arising there.
 * We might even see a drop in new members. I think what is great attraction of this TL is that someone can create their own personal post-apocalyptic nation, and if they can make one that covers their hometown so much the better. Denied that chance we are going to see a lot of new users get discouraged and stop participating.

So that is my theory which I am calling the Plausibility Singularity. So what do you guys think? Am I crazy or am I on to something here? Mitro 16:44, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a very good idea, Mitro. Are you by any chance a maths kind of person? Your style has logic to it. HAD 17:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I am horrible at math, though I like to think I can be logical thanks to my background in law. Mitro 19:00, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well that explains that then.HAD 19:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ha, this "singularity" is a perfect description, in suitably apocalyptic terms, of the life cycle of Ill Bethisad that some of us have seen. When Louisiannan was rather new to that project, it was a time of furious map-making when nobody much knew what the canon was because it changed so quickly. By the time I joined, the map was filled in and activity had slowed down. Most people were concentrating on cultural details. I'll add, though, that even after the map appears to be "filled in", there will be a lot of nations that are still mostly murky, or where the only detailed info is stuff we assumed ("QAA") rather than created. Venezuela is a good example, or Nigeria. The world is big enough that I think we will never reach the point where it's "full", but we will have to start painting with smaller brushes, if that makes sense. Benkarnell 19:11, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ben's right - the focus of many in Ill Bethisad is on refining the details about the countries. I think that there can also be any number of city-states and failed-states in the 1983DD universe. I think that we can and should explore those, and also the smaller, less "notable" aspects of the world, too. Lost journals, and the like. Louisiannan 20:57, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro may have something here. We may need to go over the assumptions upon which we have created this world, but there will be a point in which we will have filled in all the spaces. I am presently looking at the extent of what the accepted targets would have affected the US Southeast - even to the extent of a low level nuke hitting near my folk's homestead (far enough away to wipe out dad's business across the river, but not directly affect them). Fallout can be ruled out as a huge threat where we can assume an airburst, but places like Washington DC and NYC will have to have had a few ground-level blasts to totally devastate them. The trouble with the big targets is that they cannot be too soon after the warning or Reagan and Bush will not escape (resulting in a 'minor' change of the canon! -- workable, but a pain). Well, I hope that is not too far off the 'Plausibility Singularity.' SouthWriter 18:30, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Someone recently posed the question where to go from here, which got me to thinking. As such, I would like to offer a thought. Back in the 1970s there was an alt history novel called "For Want of a Nail" which offered a look at North America in which the American Revolution went a different direction in the tone of a history book. It is a great book to read if you have not already. This said, someone created a website where fans could create short stories which occured in this ATL and gave introspective to events through the eyes of someone who witnessed it, say a battle. How we could do such a thing via wikia I am unsure. But it would give all of us a chance to expand on certain areas of our nations, where we were limited in our respective articles. It is definitely food for thought. --Fxgentleman 17:38, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

There is a consenous forming on the Commonweath of Califormia Talkpage that the Singularity for the North American continent has already been reached. Perhaps a WCRB headline that "Futher North American Nation- States are unlikely to be discovered" is nessacry And i agree with you Fx.HAD 17:38, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should refrain from graduating new North American nations until this is settled. Mitro 21:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that other then a few scattered isolated communities all major US survivor nations have been found however I will say this. Lets graduate the last few on the docket right now like North Florida, The Republic of Indiana, The Dakotas and State College to finish off these (so far) non controversial articles then move on to the other aspects like me and Brain have been doing with the articles on the various public figures in the post doomsday world. GOPZACK 22:47, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Indiana and North Florida are non-controversial. The other articles you mention seem ok, but they are incomplete and I would like to see more info added to them before we graduate them.  Mitro 22:30, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I recently created a nation based out of Laredo, Texas and Laredo, Mexico named Republica de Dos Laredos (I believe that's the correct spelling in espanol!). I could establish that as a decidedly non-pleasant, violent nation state if that would help balance the "nice" republics. I think what happened here is someone said it was totally unrealistic to have vast areas of post-Doomsday America w/o any human presence and civilization, and everyone jumped in and now we have all these nation states. Now, I do believe that 27 years on what was socially the case in any given area in say, 1984 does not have to be the same in 2010. That could be for the better...or for the worse. BrianD 00:44, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal overload
We passed the 60+ proposal line. If you get the chance, please review some of the outstanding proposals and move to graduate them if you think they are ready. Mitro 01:29, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Airships?
This might be a bizarre and perhaps far-fetched idea, but I think airships might have some form of popularity in the post-DD world. Why? Well, from what I've gathered they're capable of carrying decent-sized loads of cargo or passengers, they're more energy-efficient than conventional aircraft, and they can cover more direct routes than ships. Of course, there are downsides; complexity of flying and landing is a significant factor and a problem if they are used for aid transportation to underdeveloped nations with barely-trained ground crews, and the fact they are slower than aircraft (though faster than ships) is another problem. Nonetheless, if they could be built in the early 20th century that means most nations with decent industrial economies should be capable of building airships and blimps; and being less fuel-thirsty and complex than airliners makes them fairly viable for exploration and transportation.

Of course I could just be having a flight of fancy (no pun intended). Am I on to something here, or is this just another bad idea to be ripped apart by the community like Empire of Greater Germania? Fegaxeyl 12:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well there are three main types of Airship, Two of them are easy and quick to make and a third that can carry far more passangers/cargo but takes longer to build and relies on a supply of Helium and Hydrogen. I think the first type (Non rigid airships) would have probabley made the quickest comeback as they are esentialy oversised hot air ballons with some motors mounted on a gondala these would posibly have been used for travel or reconisance in the early days after doomsday but would have fallen out of popularity later as they are un able to carry much weight. The second type (Semi rigid airships) would have also made a comeback quickly after DD as all that is required to build them is a basic metal industry, they have a rigid keel and can either by inflated like a hot air ballon or with Hydrogen/Helium, they would probabley still be used by nations without kerosene or Helium/Hydrogen or those with very little industry. The third type would be the most usefull, these fully rigid airships have a full frame and can carry lots of passangers and cargo but can take nearly two years to build. I think though Fegaxeyl that you are on to a very good idea here, Kerosene (Aviation Fuel) is hard to refine and Airships would provide a good alternative. I do think though that propeller driven aircraft would also have made a large comeback following doomsday as well.Vegas adict 13:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh no...doesn't this TL have enough AH cliches? :-) Mitro 14:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I on the other hand love the idea. Needless to say airships are going to be much more practical than jet aircraft in Virginia.

Yankovic270 14:26, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * We might have to many AH cliches but in a world where the infastructure for jet aircraft doesn't exist (Much) airships do make a logical and sensible choice as passanger and transport vehicles.Vegas adict 14:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of Airships and Piston engined aircraft experiencing a resurgence. Jets are expensive and are the mainstay of 1st world nations like the SAC, USSR and CANZ.HAD 15:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's cliche but it makes sense. Go ahead and write something up, whether a page of its own or a section of the Science-and-Technology page. Just keep them sensible and play up the affordability angle. The idea of ÜBER-airships would not fit this ATL. (Anyone ever play Red Alert II? ;)) Benkarnell 16:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with so-called "Über-airships" being implausible, but roughly 1920's era zeppelins would be well within the technology levels of the timeline. And they would be safe too, because after the post-Hindenburg modifications to its design the sister ship the Graf Zeppelin had a long and illustrious career.

Yankovic270 16:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

So Goddyear Blimp and (mini) Helium Hindenburgs as opposed to Kiriv Airships, right?HAD 16:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I believe helium blimps are more expensive to produce than a hydrogen airship, so a small survivor state stretched to the limit might actually be more interested in a hydrogen model. Hydrogen airships got a bad rep actually after Hindenburg. The fear over them was a little unfounded. Mitro 18:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hydrogen is easier to refine than Helium as wellVegas adict 19:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually had a dream last night that I was in the world of 1983DD and was piloting an airship. The airship, for whatever reason, had no floor, and I kept dropping stuff and worrying that my passengers would fall. I wasn't worried about myself, for some reason. Benkarnell 23:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to dream a better dream Ben, misquoting Les Miserables asides. But its a pretty cool mental image: Commonwealth Air Force F-18s alongside a zepplin, updated Lockheed Constellations (the best piston liner, in my opinion), sharing the skies with SAS 747s.HAD 17:33, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is a good idea, but they would most likley be expensive so nations should have very few.Baconton 23:45, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Request
I have a polite request to ask of you, the 1983: Doomsday community. I ask that you please give me command of a WCRB Division in Indochina. I had no idea of where to place this, so I put it here. --Yankovic270 18:47, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, I would like to request command of the WCRB Division in East Africa seeing as i'm one of the only people to have created in depth articles in that region.Vegas adict 20:39, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * There really is no formal process for this guys. Just go the  page and add your title and name there.  Mitro 20:40, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

Kabylie
Is an article about a countrie wich gain independence from Algeria after it was given to Greece by The League of Nations, then a dictator modernized the small countrie.

VENEZUELA 23:35, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by me. Hoping it will detail the American refugees who fled to other parts of the world after Doomsday. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Rather than taking up additional space by making a new posting here, I am modifying the one I originally posted on March 15 [enclosed below] to incorporate all my work. As part of my work on the Middle East, I posted my article for Saudi Arabia on the 15 and one for the UAE as of today. I will post additional articles this week for Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. Additionally, I posted an article on March 20 concerning the Gulf States Union, a political and economic union between the Arabian nations. My apologies for not being able to post something sooner here on the page regarding it. My apologies for the delay in putting this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy until just recently. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. Fxgentleman 02:52, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

As a follow-up to what I have been discussing for awhile, I have created an article for Saudi Arabia as part of my return to the Middle East. I will be following up with more articles regarding other Arabian nations and for a unified body for the region. Additionally, I will be resuming my work as well for those I am already working on. My apologies for taking a while to put this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy. Fxgentleman 05:06, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * While Saudi Arabia still needs some work, any objections to graduating the UAE and Gulf States Union?Oerwinde 08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Although I still have to do some tweaking to the GSU and UAE articles, I would be grateful to have them graduated. As my article on S. Arabia is still a work in progress I could not recommend it for graduation just yet. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Iran (1983: Doomsday) and some related ideas
Moved to Talk:Iran (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 14:44, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There, I've made an extensive history of early Iranian history post-Doomsday. I'd appreciate any input.--Vladivostok 12:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Baconton. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty empty. The idea's OK in theory, but I think we at least need to clarify the extent of the destruction in Crimea. Two missiles actually seems sort of light for such a strategically important region. Sevastopol was one of the main naval bases in the USSR. Overall I hope this is not the last Russian statelet to appear. We have so many in the US. Benkarnell 22:05, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the part of them colonizing parts of Turkey is pretty weak. There are too many minature empires in this TL already. Furthermore wouldn't the Turks have something to say about Crimean colonies? Mitro 14:40, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * We already know that blown-up Greece has taken pieces of Turkey, so it must be in awfully bad shape. It's actually very consistent if blown-up Crimea takes pieces as well. Benkarnell 19:14, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but I think Greece and Crimea's geography plays a role in that. Greece in many ways had a larger area of survivors to pull from. Crimea itself is relatively compact and even just two nukes can cause major damage and chaos to the small peninsula, preventing any future colonization unless it is part of some plan to flee to a better area.
 * I'm curious about how the Crimean Tatars are doing post-Doomsday. Mitro 19:33, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please edit my article.Baconton 23:49, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed "Lost colony" in the former South Carolina
Following up on the "discovery of two communities in the western part of the state by the WCRB, I have written an article to account for the lack of contact of those people with the larger community in the upstate. Since I have the explorers of from Piedmont "missing" them in 1991 (partly because they only went as far as the outskirts of Columbia on the Broad River), I postulate that they were largely "relocated," if not wiped out by what we called "Hurricane Hugo" in 1989. I call the "colony" the "Peedee Nation" in honor of the almost extent Pee Dee tribe of Native Americans that lived in the area. One of the "borders" of the nation was the Great Pee Dee River.

I need to fill in the details, but it is assumed that the residents in the area between blasts just settled down and lived along the rivers. Unfortunately, few of them recognized the signs of a hurricane bearing down on them. [SouthWriter]

Okay, I have done some work on the rise and fall of this doomed nation. It wasn't the bombs that got them -- It was something a lot bigger -- Hurricane "Hugo" -- and a lot smaller -- influenza carolina. Together these disasters killed more people than were killed in all of Columbia on Doomsday. For South Carolina, at least, Doomsday wasn't the worst thing that could happen! SouthWriter 18:34, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Missouri
A proposal about my home state of Missouri. --Jnjaycpa 05:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
I just made a proposal about the Republic of Georgia, a breakaway Georgia that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * You make vague mention of military bases in Georgia being hit. Can you be more specific? I think Batumi would be hit. Mitro 16:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

&
Me & Southwriter's proposals for the Dakotas. --GOPZACK 19:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduating North Dakota. Mitro 19:56, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the interest of full disclosure I want to add a small section to the North Dakota noting that Bismarck, Fargo and the southeast corner of the state is now a part of the . --GOPZACK 19:58, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Muslim Liberation Army
A proposal for a terrorist organization tied to Iran with a base of operations in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.--Vladivostok 10:37, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Mitro 12:42, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

The article has been expanded by a new user. Check it out. Mitro 22:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not a bad article, I like it. However I don’t see why Indonesia was nuked on DD. As far as I can tell it wasn’t aligned with either side nor had any strategic value. So far I can’t see any reasoning behind the attack.--ShutUpNavi 23:18, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * It has been changed again. This one connects with the 1983: Doomsday more. Tji 12:12, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

A news proposal much like the Riley.Konner 11:26, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Azokoatron. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 22:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any objections to graduation? --GOPZACK 20:01, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've taken over the article with SouthWriter. We've dropped the crap about making the grand "Republic of Florida". I have also acknowledged South Florida in the article. --GOPZACK 15:39, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia (U.S. State)
I put a little bit up for the summary article on my home state of Georgia. I clicked on what looked like a live link at the new article on the former Soviet country of Georgia and got a blank slate! So there you go.

I have some ideas for south Georgia, and I have to build up some of the story for Toccoa. And of course, there is the failed provisional government in Athens to which to link the article. SouthWriter 03:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

I thought you might like to know, that Jimmy Carter was not present in Georgia on DD. During my research I ran across articles which stated his sister, Ruth Carter Stapleton, had died on 9/26/1983 in Fayetteville, NC from cancer. According the articles, Carter had been by his sister's bedside during the two weeks leading up to her death. The WCRB report on the Southern US stated Fayetteville, NC was hit on DD. Of course this does not preclude the chance, as you said, the Secret Service got him out in time. Even so, they would have to get him to GA to establish a new government. Hope this helps. --Fxgentleman 16:50, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Azerbaijan (1983:Doomsday)
An article by me --Fedelede 02:08, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Article originally created due to how long the discussion on how the history of 1983: Doomsday will progress. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've started working on this article. Thoughts are appreciated. Mitro 16:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Brian is trying to revise the history of West Texas. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thoughts appreciated - this is still very much in progress. Some of the history touches more on the south Texas and north Texas states, and would eventually be moved if this is approved.--BrianD 23:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perry. Mitro 15:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Mitro, but Perry doesn't seem to know how this time line works. Even if he begins to put together an idea that goes along with canon, his grammar is not up to par. I suggested to him that he read it aloud after he wrote it, but I don't think it has helped. SouthWriter 05:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with SouthWriter, I'm not very good with grammar, but I think when all the grammar issues can be worked out, it will come out good. I understand the timeline.Perryz101 23:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * A part of me just doesn't think it is plausible to have another large state in the Midwest. Especially when we have 3 other large states (Virginia, Kentucky and Superior) all in the same general location. Mitro 12:43, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * So the cities just get trown to Kentucky and Superior?...With these cities still living they would try and reform some type of nation. I don't understand when you say large, do you mean by area-power- or what?Perryz101 17:43, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

San Diego
Article created by WestVirginiaRebel, where he argues for survivors in the former southern California city. BrianD 01:35, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Does anyone think this article has merit? Should we graduate it, rework it or mark it obsolete? BrianD 15:26, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

The article it's self I have no trouble with but the whole idea of worshiping Lincoln as a deity I have trouble with. I don't see it catching on with 20% of the population. A fringe cult perhaps but not a major religion. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Lincoln the President but I just don't see a religion being formed around him. --GOPZACK 03:08, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

It's just because I realized that from what I got from church that God is a wise and incredibly loving enitity who knows how to be firm. That describes Abraham Lincoln to a T. Lincolnism is basically Christianity with a different face on God. If you ever read the bible you would know that the true face of God is never revealed. I stand by the new faith, as it is the quirk I gave it to make the country unique. And if a country could have a religion worshipping King Arthur, who may or may not have existed, then ol' Abe definitely deserves followers.

Yankovic270 03:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * This smacks of Russian Buddhists that another alt-history group toyed with once-upon-a-time, but they're just so out there - beyond the pale, really, that I don't know if Lincolnists or Arthurians could survive any better than Russian Buddhists did in the other alternate history. As much as you'd like to keep it because of a quirk, I don't know that people would give up their old religion for this new religion just because of Doomsday. I'm not averse to it, given a much stronger explanation - maybe that major religious leaders had visions, what-not - similar to the Jehovah's Witness or something. That would much better explain why it would take off so.


 * I'm more concerned, Yankovic, that you seem so ready to defy group consensus, something that is integral to the proper function of this and other shared timelines. I would hope you would reconsider. Louisiannan 05:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll chime in as the loyal opposition here: I think that strange things can happen to small groups living in isolation. I'm actually surprised there aren't more weird religious cults out there. I agree that a more sophisticated explanation for the origins this one is probably needed. Benkarnell 13:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Danke Schon Ben. I just need a prominent local religious leader to have a vision. I also need some one to write the vision. I'm not one who can write religous material.

Yankovic270 15:17, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for cults popping up after doomsday but not on such a large scale like in Lincoln. & by making Lincoln "god" wouldn't that piss a lot of Christians off who believe God sent down his son Jesus for a time but God himself other wise was never like you said "revealed". That could spark religious tension & such plus I doubt your leader Dave Heineman, a methodist, would drop that faith and become a "Lincolnist". --GOPZACK 19:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem per se with somebody there worshipping Abraham Lincoln as a deity. It's 20 percent of the population that I have a problem with. Personally, Lincolnism as a philosophy, that could be held by anyone of any religion or no religion is more realistic. In fact I could see this as some sort of humanist movement, their argument being no one knows if God exists or not, but everyone knows Lincoln did, and we know what he stood for; and that his principles are ones that everyone can follow and adopt, regardless of humanist or Lutheran or Catholic beliefs. This could still allow for the monuments to Abe Lincoln that Yank's established as being around the city of Lincoln. I would also take issue with Lincoln's hostilities towards PUSA Nebraska - how strange for peaceful people to be so bitter at Scottsbluff for taking their "territory".--BrianD 23:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I can live with the hostilies being removed, but I remain firm on the Lincolnists. I will not remove Lincolnism from my article. I want them to be an actual religion, not a philosophy. What's the largest percentage of people who could be Lincolnist? And I will not accept 5% or lower.

Yankovic270 02:07, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yankovic, you're always doing that! "I will not accept less than..."... this isn't an auction! Brian, I still think that having one's civilization destroyed might lead people to unexpected devotional and cultic practices. This month's National Geographic has an article on the growth of the cult of Santa Muerte in Mexico. Now, most images of people worshipping Santa Muerte simply look... creepy to most people, but it is a real phenomenon that has been expanding rapidly in Mexico as social and economic conditions have taken a turn for the worse. Think of how much more psychologically and spiritually damaging the nuclear war must have been - on everyone in the world, but on Americans especially. That really is a dimension of this ATL that I think we haven't explored enough. Worshipping Abe Lincoln? Hardly implausible, especially for a people craving some piece of the USA to hold on to. If you ask me, Lincolnism ought to be the tip of the iceberg. Benkarnell 03:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ben. I still don't quite get it, but you've helped me understand this a bit more. Maybe the nuclear war made Lincolnists forsake their former faith in God, and Lincolnism filled in the gap? (I wonder what effect this is having on the Protestant and Catholic churches there?). And, I also wonder if there is a (small) humanist/atheist contingent that adopted the Lincolnist principles w/o embracing him as a deity. BrianD 03:09, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the Catholic Church in Mexico has repeatedly condemned Santa Muerte, and according to the article, they've persuaded the Mexican government to revoke her status as a recognized religion. Probably Lincoln has similar tensions.
 * Just as a general thing: I really do think that we have sometimes ignored the psychological side of things. When I look at North America, I'd expect most people over 25 to show some symptoms of depression and PTSD, for example. And this would have serious effects felt throughout society. It might help explain why Americans have been so unwilling to "pick up the pieces", and why Uyghurs and Manchurian Chinese were so nonchalant about the rump Soviet government taking over. Benkarnell 03:29, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * There probably are tensions, but in reading the article it seems as if the government accepts the new religion. The depression/PTSD discussion is worth a thread of its own. BrianD 03:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I agree Brian, depression/PTSD must be discussed in greater depth. However in regards to this article I can not drop my objections without a sharp reduction in Lincolnism, the end of great hostilities with the NAU over territory. Both sides should meet and determine a border and end this "viscous argument" as its called. GOPZACK 15:44, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

I am willing to accept a reduction in Lincolnist ranks of 5%, but no more than that. As I said before I am perfectly fine with the hostilities being at least toned down to a minor dissagreement, if not completely eliminated.

Yankovic270 16:13, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * sigh*... If I may quote Ben "this isn't an auction!" 15% of the population is still too high Yank. This is a fringe religion that should be counted as a part of the "Unknown (14%)" area. GOPZACK 19:47, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am glad that someone gave a psycholgical reason for the religion of Lincolnism to exist. And Louis? Until now "group consensus" was that everyone was basically fine with Lincolnism. I don't know why it became an issue despite being given the green light from the community. By the way, Zack? The demoralizing effects of Doomsday are probbably strong enough to make people flock to the new religion.

Yankovic270 15:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't want to speak for Louis but I think he like me just missed the Licolnsim portion of the article. This seems to happen rather often as I've observed. As for flocking to a new religion I doubt they would make one up based on the worshiping of a former President. Some may but it would not be a major religion. --GOPZACK 20:46, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The idea of a Lincoln religion does not seem that crazy in light of the huge traumatic stress caused by Doomsday, but I also agree that 20% of the population adhering to it is going over the top. Most likely they are a small cult.  Mitro 02:34, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Referendum
While browsing through some random articles, I found myself landing into the Thunder Bay article. While reading through it, I happened to see that it was written that a referendum was supposed to be held on April 10 to decide whether to be incorporated into Canada, Superior, or stay itself. What was the final verdict? This is a classic example of an article falling into neglect. Arstarpool 01:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well these things do happen. We will just need to decide among ourselves what would happen and then write it in. I wonder though with war going on between Superior and Canada that the referendum might have been cancelled. Mitro 00:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone updated the Thunder Bay article rather recently (I messaged Labhas about it but never heard back). It would be good to get hold of Lahbas to see if he approves of the updates before deciding on the referendum. BrianD 01:37, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

WCRB Report on Transportation
A WCRB report on the situation of Transport infastructure across the world including details on AirshipsVegas adict 17:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Here is a proposal for an article for the state of Montana. It references the portions of it that were made new states in TTL, but stands as an article for "the" Montana of OTL as well. --SouthWriter 22:24, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

May I ask who marked this page obsolete, and for what purpose? Arstarpool 01:02, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I believe it was due to the "Plausibility Singularity" debate we recently had. HAD 15:24, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar, I'm afraid you didn't really get a chance to defend your creation. But I think consensus is that we're rapidly reaching the point (or have already reached the point) where any more nations in North America just keeps it from being true to the timeline. On its own, I think, nobody had any problems with the Commonwealth. But taken together, I think there was just too much near the West Coast. Benkarnell 15:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should graduate it quickly, and place some sort of block on building nations in the West Coast of the United States. It would be a shame to see an otherwise perfectly canonj-worthy nation go to waste.

Yankovic270 16:01, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for speedy graduation. Can we get a show in hands?

P.S:

Ben, when saying the short version of my username, it's said, Ars, not Arstar :) Arstarpool 23:11, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't graduate articles by vote. Furthermore I am with Ben, the west has gotten way to crowded and probably has fallen into the probability singularity. That being said maybe this article could be graduated if it is reconceived as one of the many city-states that ruled over Northern California and Southern Oregon, but managed to avoid coming under the jurisdiction of the MSP. Mitro 23:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know things aren't graduated by vote, but it would be better to see who would support this article becoming canon. And Mitro, the area is not as near to the MSP as seen by alot of you guys, and the location was changed several times to be sure that it could be made canon. Arstarpool 20:44, May 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think he means, shrink it down a bit so it's more of a single settlement, or a confederation of small settlements, rather than a modern republic. It could still call itself the Commonwealth of California.  IMO North America ought to have a lot more "nations" that are governed at the local level, than modern territorial states.  That's how my only contribution to the continent (the Yukon) works, along with the first North American survivor state we discovered (the MSP). Benkarnell 21:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the map the Commonwealth is at the southern border of the MSP, unless that is wrong. Mitro 00:02, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Confederate States of America
Intended mainly for historical purposes (although Toccoa is available for development, and I placed some small survivor towns along the Alabama/Tennessee/Mississippi border).BrianD 00:10, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Intercollegiate athletics
College sports in North America post-DD, mainly intended to be an overview of what's currently going on (specifics would be covered in pages created for each conference). This could be fun. I've stuck the Dixie Alliance schools with the rednecks from Blue Ridge, East Tennessee, Piedmont and Florida :-) BrianD 02:15, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good thing you used the smiley face! Yup, we's redneks an' prowd uv it!! :-) SouthWriter 18:05, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

A small article associated with the article. --GOPZACK 20:08, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Zach, I clearly said on the Activity Feed page that I claimed the Muscle Shoals CSA:

Confederate States of America (1983: Doomsday) created by BrianD 20 hours ago Waynesboro is in the Muscle Shoals CSA. That said, if you can come up with a proposal for Waynesboro that works with what I come up with for this version of the CSA, I'll work it in...please keep in mind I came up with the proposal for these towns, and I've already made a claim on them for subsequent articles. BrianD 20:23, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm terribly sorry about that, I did not see the original post when it was created. I hope you don't take this article as a slap in the face but rather me failing to read the fine print. In any event I hope it can be incorporated somehow. --GOPZACK 20:34, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * De nada. Take a look at the Muscle SHoals CSA article below.BrianD 00:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm temporarily suspending work on this article until the framework for the "new" CSA is formed then me & Brain will work to make articles for the now independent city states of the CSA. --GOPZACK 19:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

CSA (Muscle Shoals version)

 * A proposal for a "good" Confederate States, having dissolved in 1999 due to political squabbles (not violent war or racism), and potentially set for a revival as they learn of the outside post-DD world around them. I hope I am understanding the states rights rationale correctly. BrianD 00:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Zack. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering where the Boss was on Doomsday, even I doubt he would be alive. That whole area would be one big death zone and I am not sure he would have made it out in time.  Mitro 23:28, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Blank article created by Kdavis. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objection to marking this article as obsolete until Kdavis has time to work on the article. Mitro 02:57, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

and
Series of Cleveland related articles. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

After a lot of discussion, article was finally created. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking this could be similar to those timelines where after the Americans get independence, the USA promptly breaks up and the newly independent nations expand westwards. Similar idea here with the independent countries on the East coast and expanding westwards. Its just in the British Isles in a post-apocalyptic world not in America post-american revolution. Bob 11:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me although Woodbridge first intends to expand into Norfolk. If/when the OBN becomes canon it could get an entry in the Geopolitics article Verence71 11:21, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Blank article created by new user. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objection to marking this article as obsolete? Mitro 02:58, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Zack. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm holding off on this one until North Florida is canonized. --GOPZACK 02:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Dsiplaced holiday makers
Hi everyone, I am a perpetual traveller, currently living in my 4th year abroard (I am in Japan from Australia).

I have just made a proposal section about displaced holiday makers. It occurred to me that there would have been literally a few million people stranded very far from home. Invariably many would have perished on Doomsday, but a few would have survived - how would they have contributed to the new republics/city states etc? Would they try to go home? How would they react when they find that home no longer exists?

Some particular examples I was thinking of is a teacher abroad, on a school excursion say in Japan.

Or someone simply on holiday, say in Hawaii, Florida or Europe, but not near a major city and survives.

What you all think?


 * I have not been able to find the "proposal section" you mentioned. However, there is already a proposed article called American diaspora (1983: Doomsday).  This is a place to place all those Americans stranded in foreign lands.  I suppose other "diaspora" pages would be appropriate for any and all nations that have populations dispersed around the world, even if only temporarily, on Doomsday.


 * If they are in a bombed nation and survive, their story becomes personal. If they are abroad in a safe country, but find out they can't return (or at least not easily) they become part of the story of that nation and those places to which they can travel from there.  Articles in this wiki do not have to be "encyclopedic," though most are.  We need some personal journals and human interest stories about surviving Doomsday. SouthWriter 02:25, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, I renamed it Displaced holiday travellers (1983: Doomsday). I just didn't think makers made sense.  Mitro 02:39, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

South Carolina
I have started the South Carolina reference page. It is a place to place short descriptions of 1983 DD articles about the state. SouthWriter 02:00, May 5, 2010 (UTC) i found it SouthWriter, i borroed a bit from your page on the Piedmont Republic just to get it started will change latter if ya want. i just wanted to get some sections started. and to go offtopic 4 a bit all you airwolf fans check out the airwolf wikia i am working on. the link is on my talk page here. Wingman1 02:34, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

An article to document the Somali Civil WarVegas adict 21:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Rheghed co-operative
Rheged (1983: Doomsday) a group of inter-trading independant survivor townships based in the former English county of Cumbria--Smoggy80 15:28, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Empire State
My idea for a dictatorship in the former state of New York.

Yankovic270 02:59, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Can you link up to it Yank? --GOPZACK 23:50, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Give you an inch --- :-)

Is rural New York good soil for a dictatorship ??? SouthWriter 21:40, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Kansas
I am presently trying to build up the Provisional United States as it now stands. This is the start of the article on Kansas. SouthWriter 21:40, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Wyoming
And here is the article on Wyoming. I have not necessarily "adopted" the PUSA, but I have started these articles to allow others to fill in the gaps. SouthWriter 02:47, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

&
Any objections to a quick graduation? --GOPZACK 23:49, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

EMP affected areas
When we are writing our articles, we assume a single EMP generated 300 miles above the center of the contiguous US, as well as a similar EMP over the center of the USSR (aka Russia). To the left is the professionally produced map (I extended the circle to completion) and one I did from the Google Earth shot of Eurasia is on the right. Collateral damage in North America includes Havana, Cuba (a friend of Russia) and Finland (a friend of the USA). As you can see, most of Mexico, as well as the big cities of Canada would also be affected. We can see by this that the EMP would have been devestating to Mexico, except that it may have more "antique" electric systems that might survive. And, depending on the accuracy of this map, Aroostook may very well have been the only place in the lower 48 that actually would have working solid state electronics! SouthWriter 18:07, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey South, I was just wondering if you could tell me why the airburst centered so deep into Siberia? I mean, I know that map isn't "official" but I think it would make more sense to airburst over all of the European USSR and even take out a couple of satellite states while they were at it. Or has it already been established where the centre of the EMP was?--Vladivostok 18:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

No, Vlad, it is not the established center for an assumed US EMP over the USSR. I chose a spot that was over the bulk of Russia itself, as it appears on the map today. As I understand it, this "Russian Federation" was the bulk of the USSR anyway. It might work well to center it over the European part of that would leave even more collateral damage on friends in Europe. I am assuming that neither superpower wanted to exspend more that one high orbit missile to deploy a nuke as an EMP generator. With one shot, they would go for as much of the enemy as they could. Disabled electronics would then reduce the effectiveness of both the missiles and the warning systems of both sides.

With that thought, I suppose, we could assume a certain number of the intended targets would have been missed due to tracking problems. A lesser number, I suspect might even fail to explode (not as likely, but if the EMP missile was first up, it could arrive in place before all the missiles reached their targets, effecting those "under" them). Just some thoughts. SouthWriter 21:37, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

If we established the largest ring as canon, it would cause havoc with the Mexico article and cause some revision of the timeline (because how could Reagan contact Mexico if Mexico's electronics didn't work?) It would also establish the Remainder Provnices of Canada; Cuba; Puerto Rico; most of the Caribbean; and upper British Columbia, Yukon, and Alaska, as potentially powerful nations after Doomsday - because EMP would not have affected them at all! I like the middle ring, as it encompasses most of the US and northern Mexico (as the original writer of Mexico apparently envisioned when he wrote that country's history). You could take a second "middle ring" burst over the northeast USA, and a third perhaps over the Oregon coast, to cover the entire US and Canada w/o affecting the Mexico articles and presumably placing all of Canada under some sort of EMP burst.


 * Elsewhere (User talk with one of the editors) I proposed two of the medium blasts at a little over the proposed 120 mile mark of the official report. I didn't do the math, and assumed around 130 miles, I believe. My son, a math major, run the numbers and I realized it must have been a bit higher. [Figuring line of sight from above a sphere is not easy!). Anyway, here is a graphic of proposed blasts over Colorado and Indiana. Note: I used QB instead of QC for Quebec. The relative stability of Victoria and the Remainder states indicate that they had very little EMP damage.  SouthWriter 21:53, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

The Franklin in Mexico
I was editing the voyage of the USS Benjamin Franklin to bring it into line with what we now know about Panama: the Franklin saw that the canal was impassable and instead sailed around Cape Horn, re-establishing contact with the South American coastal states. I was going to have it sail from Brazil to Cape Verde: it's canonical that Brazil and Cape Verde (a federated member of the "new Portugal") were in contact from 1990, so the Brazilians would likely have steered the Franklin in that direction, from which they could go to Europe and complete the voyage as written. However, our recent discoveries relating to Mexico complicate things considerably. The American presence had grown a lot by then, and at the time of the Franklins visit (mid-1991), several cities were engulfed in pro- or anti-American rioting. The Torreon Accords would be signed that September, and GW Bush would be a signatory. Question: the Franklin would surely have informed the Americo-Mexicans about the provisional US government in Canberra. Bush would have learned of his father's survival. What does that do to the dynamics both in Mexico and in Australia and New Zealand? The Franklin definitely would stop: its crew had not encountered any civilization in the western US and would have been eager to know what was happening in the next country they passed. This effects the histories of several nations and key individuals, so I put it in this section of the talk page. Benkarnell 22:42, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * As the overseer of Mexico and the various Texases, the question of their relationship to the APA has been something I've been trying to resolve, because I just can't see the APA letting the Americans in Mexico, and survivor states along the border, go knowing there are survivors in those regions (remember, we already have the APA intervening in MSP, Alaska and Hawaii affairs). Onto the Franklin: it would stop, and it would have to be aware of the survivors before stopping. In regards to Mexico, it is put in a unique position as a relatively stable state in the post-Doomsday world, uber powerful on at least a regional scale, and in the middle between the APA/Australian/New Zealand and South American blocs. That political arrangement might last to this day. BrianD 22:54, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

PS: One possible "way out" would be that the Franklin was intercepted by Mexican ships as soon as it was sighted and identified. The Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs rushed out to the flotilla and begged the ship to sail on, because its arrival, if made public, would cause political turmoil. And to show you we are serious, look at these guns. The Franklin's crew would certainly see this as unreasonable but might decide to avoid trouble and sail on to El Salvador or Costa Rica, where there arrival would cause rumors back in Mexico, but not actual contact between the two American communities. Sort of a cheap retcon, but it could work, and fit with the dystopic tone of those years of the ATL. Benkarnell 22:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * But then you have to explain what was going on with Mexico (the details which still are being worked on). In the previous version of Mexico, the original editor, Guinnesscap, had "thousands of Americans leave for Australia and the Municipal States of the Pacific" after the APA dissolved. If we accept that, then that means Australia and Mexico would have had to know of each other's situations beforehand. I maintain that would be the case in 1995, and that relations between Mexico and the ANZC/APA would either be good or really bad.--BrianD 22:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe this meeting helped show the APA the enormity of their predicament: the US mainland was shot, and the US community in Mexico was much larger than it could hope to provide for. Maybe this rushed it on its way toward dissolution. (Four years isn't so long in Bureaucratic Time.) As for relations between Mexico and the APA, I would vote bad, if only beacuse everything seemingly was bad in the 1990s; I don't see the two governments working happily together. The APA could be an advocate for Americans living in Mexico, but relations with the Mexican government would remain tense. Benkarnell 23:05, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the APA's predicament. There are so many reasons for a bad APA/Mexico relationship; those would need to be hammered out. The distance between the two nations would not help, either. BrianD 23:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think on reflection that the APA would come into conflict with Mexico over the refugee issue. That, combined with trying to hold together a nation streched across thousands of miles would render the APA more and more impotent, as diverging intrests between the disparte parts of it tear the APA apart. Quick question: would West Texas be part of the APA while it existed, along with other states on the US/Mexico border?HAD 13:09, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be a pretty big change to one of our major assumptions so far, but I kind of like the idea anyway. If West Texas did officially join the APA, of course, it would not have meant much in its day-to-day workings, since it was so far from the central government.
 * If that were the case, there would be a few things that need explaining. (1) Why wouldn't the APA move to Texas, part of the mainland USA? It would have had a base in actual US territory from which to expand. Answer: It also would have isolated the APA from its chief remaining resource, the US naval forces in the Pacific still under its jurisdiction. Also, the Mexicans might have objected to it if they were feeling particularly testy, which they undoubtedly were. (2) If W. Texas was in touch with the APA (and through it, the wider world), why does it seem so isolated in 2009, when it discovered the East Texans for the first time? Answer: Most/all of its contact with the wider world was through Mexico. E. Texas may still have been seen as too dangerous to venture into openly. The APA itself was also rather isolated during this time. If it did have nominal authority over Texas, it could not have made official contact more than roughly once a year. (3) Would Texas then have some relationship with Australia-New Zealand? Answer: Not necessarily. It may have felt betrayed and abandoned by the APA, and would not have seen any advantage in associating itself to ANZ, especially given that the Texans wanted to be American. That's why they linked up with the APA to begin with! It may, however, be a reliable ANZ ally in the region today. Benkarnell 13:43, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm rewriting the whole thing to try to get around the isolationism w/o turning the timeline into a Texas wank. Basically, Texas is tied economically to Mexico, which abstained from annexing the entire southwest (out of fear of open rebellion, plus ongoing issues on its southern border and due to the 1985 earthquake). Texas has an independent streak going back to the 1800s, so any issues with the APA never translated into anti-Americanism, nor any grudges against the ANZC. You're right that Mexico was the gateway in and out for many years; probably, Mexico itself only knew what was going on in the southwest and the southeast, plus the Caribbean, Central America and South America and less so in Oceania and the portions of Asia that ANZ was connected to. BrianD 21:06, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

NAU Treaty?
Do we have/should we develop a page for the North American Union Treaty? Louisiannan 20:31, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never actually thought what the treaty would look like, but after seeing South's version of the PUSA constitution I think we should consider what the Treaty would read like. Mitro 21:07, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Might this be of use? Louisiannan  22:25, May 6, 2010 (UTC)