Talk:Celtic Alliance (1983: Doomsday)

Kingdom of Cleveland
Reading on Wikipedia, it seems that the name Cleveland was assigned to the area only in the 1970s, and as of 1983 the area was still Cleveland, not Tees Valley. So there's no need to change the name by vote, since it would have been the current name.

This flag is simplified the county's coat of arms. It would be blazoned Argent, a lion rampant crowned and collared Or incensed gules. How do you like it? Benkarnell 21:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I quite like the flag Owen1983 14:32 21 March 2008

i've added a section about relinking the East Coast Mainline so that you could travel from Yorkshire thru Northumbria to Glasgow and Fife via coal powered steam locomotives, i hope thats ok? --Smoggy80 18:00, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of the steam rail system, and a reason to re-open old coal fields. Mjdoch 13:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Celtic Alliance + Brittany?
As I've thought about France some, I could very easily see Brittany pleading for inclusion in the Celtic Alliance, especially since the lesser irradiated part of Normandy is already part. *Here* the Breton people are very proud of their Celtic heritage, and I think they would gladly cooperate/join the Celtic Alliance given that Paris (and for that matter, France) is virtually dead. -- Louisiannan 17:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a bad idea, especially considering the Celtic Alliance already has some presence in France. Mitro 18:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * would seem like a logical step Louisiannan...though to maintain lingistic differences it may be best to consider a confederation or some form of devolution to retain local control? Mjdoch 13:10, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Barbra (like buttah)
Fantastic addition, if you ask me. But was Barbra actually in Ireland in Sept 1983? If not, I think it's not a good idea to go inventing unlikely whereabouts for all sorts of people. Benkarnell 13:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

...Cheers Benkarnell, had a though to perk up the populace and i think I caused a wee bit of a storm with this one in the TL. Don't really want to add additionl stuff but the idea of a eurovison like competion is very much (I think) part of the Alliance background e.g. Eire winning all of the time and the oral traditions etc Mjdoch 23 September 2009, 09:18 (GMT)

So many mistakes
Firstly, Cornwall would be an uninhabited wasteland-being in prominity to plymouth-the HQ of the royal navy-that would no doubt recieve multiple nukes.

Most of the bits of wales that are marked as part of the Celtic alliance, would also be uninhabitable-Anglesey, the island at the norht of Wales, is given over in large part to a large RAF base-so thats in for a few nukes, as for the South West corner of Wales, you have Swansea, which after Cardiff is Wales most populous area-no doubt bombed.

Then you have much of Scotland marked as part of the celtic alliance, when actually, it would be totally annihilated. The north east coast specifically. That part of the Scotland houses the nexus of the entire British oil industry-those north sea rigs, and their land based installations in Aberdeen, the north east of Scotland in general, and the Shetlands would have been royally ass raped by multiple nulcear bombs.

In reality, the `celtic alliance` would be Ireland and maybe the Isle of man

I just want to point out that this is not what initially survives DD, but rather what has been reclaimed over the last 25 years. Initially the only parts of the Celtic Alliance are Ireland, Isle of Man, Scottish Highlands, the Hebrides, Channel Islands, and maybe Brittany. Over time however the situation would improve and the Celts would begin to bring the rest of the British Isles under control, probably starting with costal areas along the west coast.--ShutUpNavi 18:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Know what you mean ShutUpNavi, I tried to keep the initial Scottish elements only as far west as Glasgow due to failed ICBM's that were to target the city, though much of the lower Clyde estuary is deadlands...as to the east, this seems to have been added without consideration of Scotland immense industrial structures notably Grangemouth refinary, Aberdeen/North Sea oil platforms and Shetland's refinaries...we many need to re-assess the eastern structure of Scotland. As to excluding the Western Isles, I would rather keep them in as the small conventional missile base would / may not have been a target of the Soviets...?Mjdoch 13:56, 23 September 2009 (GMT)


 * We've discussed the idea of failed ICBMs before, and in general consensus says that using them as a plot device is a Bad Thing, since everybody wants the nukes aimed at their own country to fail. Benkarnell 12:52, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Even if this does have 'so many mistakes' it's been a part of canon too long for us to change.--71.52.249.49 02:55, December 23, 2009 (UTC)Anonymous92

military
about the celtic military: i assume they have a strong naval element, particulary in amphibious warfare? also air mobile infantry, and aircraft from Pilatus, in the alpine confed.--HAD 15:13, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

galician diplomacy
I've been working on the article on the republic of Galicia, I commented on this article that relations of this country are friendly with the Celtic Alliance, due to the shared Celtic ancestry of the two nations is a theory that the OTL is discussed but in the ATL is an important argument for the Galician nationalism. Do you agree that the establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries in 1994? Tristanbreiker 18:02, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * For me, spending maybe a little too much time at AlternateHistory.com makes me think at first that pan-celtism is a cliche enjoyed by alternate historians and nobody else... but in 1983DD, with the end of traditional nationalism, pan-celtism has shown itself to be a good ideology for uniting a range of communities. In short, it's a philosophy that works, in the context of 1983DD. I think Galicia and the C.A. will be natural friends, maybe even allies. Benkarnell 21:18, October 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like a natural progression Tristanb; given that Galicia is part of the Atlantic Fringe then I see no difficulty with such relations from 1994. How it evolves would be a matter of looking at how your proposal develops, e.g. democratic or autocratic etc. Benk, you are right about the pan-celtic cliche to a degree. Though in reality pan-celticism under lines many tradtional celtic nationalist parties e.g. common heritage socially, politically and economically. The only difference would be in Breton where it is tinged with a hint of racism during WWII, which is very different from Cornish, Irish, Scottish & Welsh nationalism which is very left wing. Mjdoch 11:18, October 27, 2009 (GMT)

Exploration of England
Is the Celtic Alliance would start exploring a bit deeper into England to see whats left? Liverpool, Cleveland and Northumbiria are the only snapshots of what is happening in England. Other new Nations found communities and later became part of it, like Victoria having recently controlled Washington State. Thinking engalnd surely have small communties barly abled to surivive, unknown to the Celetic Alliance. To cement its claim over the isles, need to contact if any surivous and gain their support, better way for (in the far future) to annex. However, this could produce conflicts. Firstly, growing celtic culture would come to confronation with survious, clinging on what is ment to be english. War could occure like in Cave city. Secoundly, this would enrage New Brit government so worsning realtions, or New Brit expediation to stop the Celtic expedation would result in war. If they hard the resources.--WAJJER 20:43, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Hi WAJJER, I know what you mean. I've been out of it for a while busy and the chickenpox (who would have guessed at my age). The CA has certainly expanded since I started it and I agree that it really needs to pick up on issues like survivor communities. Some aspect of the celtic cultural stuff seem to have over shadowed the political consitutional framework which should protect all communities that are part of the alliance. I can't imagine anyone wanting to go to war as this would be a huge waste of resources such as people and fuel. I wondered if people would want to see some form of consitutinal convention that might focus on creating a confederation. I am also mindful that Eire would probably still have the largest population and access to international NGO's etc, this might give the CA an unfair advantage in setting the political direction for the future. Let me know what you think? --Mjdoch 13:15. April 9, 2010 (UTC)

London
Hi. I just think I should point out that in the section 'London Calling' you say that survivor communities are discovered even in central London/Westminster. Though there are likely to be communities around the city, it is very unlikely that any would exist within the city - London requires constant pumping efforts, and without them it would be flooded (especially in the centre) within around 36 hours. Furthermore, without the Thames Barrier to protect the city (it was not fully completely in 1983) it would have been flooded consistently; there was a massive flood in 2007 OTL, and if this also occured in the timeline then it would mean most of the central London streets are filled with irradiated and stagnant overflow from the Thames. However, survivor communities could still exist if they chose to remain in the buildings and construct bridges across the waters through windows (though this is somewhat unlikely!).

Just some constructive advice!

Fegaxeyl 16:27, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree Fegaxey...seem to have got a wee bit carried away with the London calling bit. I think some folk might have added the bits about Westminster etc as I was more inclined to think along the same lines as you, say going out to Districts like Barking, Slough, etc. would you be willing to do some work on this page to tidy it up and give it some direction? Mjdoch 13:20 9 April 2010 (UTC)

First contact with the Celtic Alliance
I'm currently looking at possibilities of first contact between the Alliance and my nation of Woodbridge which is in the English county of Suffolk.

I've added a bit to the International Relations section of Woodbridge showing how I think it may occur, hope it meets with your approval. Verence71 13:34, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Looking good Verence. Been off line for a while and will get back to you soon Mjdoch 13:45 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I do have one slight problem. I notice that one of the Alliance's Medical Staging Points/End Cycle Centres is in Lowestoft. Does this mean the the Alliance claims that town?? I only cos as it's on the Suffolk coast it would probably be part of Woodbridge. Verence71 16:02, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ulster Protestant exodus
I have problems with the numbers here for the same reason I've had problems with so much of the New Britain stuff all along: it defies realism to have 90% of the Ulster Protestants leave for Africa, at any time. I understand that many would be horrified by a lot of what the C.A. stands for. And I understand the attractiveness of living under the British Crown again. But it's not feasible for more than a few diehards to leave. There's the expense, there's the number of ships required, and honestly there's the trouble of it all. Evacuating would mean uprooting yourself and your family; leaving the homeland for which you fought very hard; heading toward a country that is totally unfamiliar, and about which you only have information that is not always reliable; and sailing through waters that may contain all sorts of brigands and pirates. Faced with all that, I'd suspect that a large majority - certainly not a 10% remnant! - would stay behind. Some would make their peace with the system, some would protest very hard against it all the time, and some probably have resorted to militancy and are engaged in violent campaigns against the C.A. But most are not in Africa; that's just not possible. Benkarnell 00:00, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Ben, though I agree that 90% of Scots-Irishmen wouldn't be able to make the move, it is a very bit pessimistic to say only a few diehards would move. I mean let's use a real example. The Scots-Irish moved to America as early as the 1600s because they despised both the Anglican English and Catholic Natives and because the English were taxing the hell out of their main products (wool cloth and whiskey I believe). They moved to the colonies when they were literally nothing but 12 villagers and millions of miles of nothing but forest and "savages" (ha!). They pioneered North Carolina and fought the natives and even the English tooth-and-nail. Now when you have an established nation already thriving with a familiar Englih crown and even farmland (is South Africa fertile? I only thought so since I've watched Blood Diamond). Though there might be pirates and bad weather, they're not sailing basically the whole length of the Atantic Ocean in wooden caravels. So it might be that 90% stay and fight the new powers of the island, an that the 10% are the immigrants. Mr.Xeight 15:41, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

i don't think any NI protestants would leave. A, because they are able to and B, they wouldn't want to. NI is their home. they'd stay. HAD 18:40, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to be seeing this from the converse perspective. Belfast was bombed, there'd have some refugees. The British crown wants people to come to their land in exile, so they'd be looking for right old loyal WASP (or WAIP in this case) immigrants. And you have an a budding country that probably has loads of opportunities for jobs. So apart from Congoloses pirates on the coast, what exactly is the problem? To say that they're comfortable and Ireland is there home is not a valid arguement to me. Thousands of Germans, Scotsmen, Welshmen, French Swiss, Huguenots, Jews (yes, it seems Jews were in America since the beginning), and Ulster Scots in the 16-1700s, millions more immigrants from a whole slew of other ethnicities would (and) still are joining them. The very first immigrants as I said above came when there was nothing but forest. Mr.Xeight 19:39, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

yes, but those groups were fleeing from persuction and llack of oppetunity. the Alliance isa secular 1st world state. and according to the new britan article, it suffers quite a bit of unemployment. HAD 21:42, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * When in history have you ever heard of 90% (actually, "over 90%" is what the article said) of an entire ethnic group leaving across an ocean? Within less than 20 years? (Before that, it's quite apparent that Ireland and South Africa could have no idea what was happening in one anothers' countries.) Look, like I said, there are lots of reasons that a truly diehard, rather-be-dead-than-Irish Ulster Protestant would have for going to New Britian. But getting in the way of that is the cost of leaving, the danger, the sheer logistics. And there's the fact that the C.A. seems to have one of the highest standards of living in Europe, Asia, or Africa, while New Britain is impoverished and surrounded by enemies. Add to that the fact that the C.A. seems to have gone out of its way to incorporate the Protestants; the fact that Ireland must have seemed like a lifeboat for British culture (more so than South Africa, anyway!), and the fact that the British government (if not the monarch) legally named the C.A. as its successor. I think there's a much better case to be made for Ulster Protestant emigration than English emigration to South Africa. But it's still not going to be a majority of the people, especially when there are no economic factors, only political and ethnic ones. Benkarnell 21:47, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

my arguement exactly. HAD 12:22, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

People talk about the costs of organizing migrations being prohibitive. I think what we have here instead is a booming human transport industry. I'm not saying like big passenger transports, though there would probably be an increase in those, but big cargo ships carring boatloads of immigrants in terrible conditions similar to what we see on the west coast here with shiploads of illegal chinese immigrants. The people operating these ships would be making tons off these people.

Another possibility as well is part of Northern Ireland separating from the CA to join NB as an autonomous territory. While there are definitely downsides due to the distance, NB is imperialist right now and would likely jump at the opportunity. Having a base in the British isles would also make their emmigration efforts more efficient as well.Oerwinde 08:11, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * For that NB would have to find an area where a strong majority are in favor of seceding from their own relatively well-off country and linking their fortunes to Africa. Not impossible, I guess, but you'd need to find a coherent block of land that is really full of diehards. Benkarnell 11:51, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

i don't think this idea is even remotely plausible. Ramdominsanity 19:08, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

It was the 1980's, most protestants were die-hard unionists, I think that at least 1/3 of the ulster unionist population would be desperately trying to get to anywhere, so long as it wasn't Ireland. They hads resisted unification countless times, even when secularism and autnomy was promised. There would definately be migration. South Africa though? Not likely, a better idea would be having that 1/3 moving to Scotland and parts of Britain that the CA had made contact with. Like the BNP dominated Staffordshire for example, restarting the Orange Order and setting up Freedom Parties to rally against the CA referendums Todyo1798 16:45, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, just back on the system and look what I walk into...I just have a few things going on in my head about the going abroad thing and though not opposed to it I just thought that rather than wasting fuel migrating half way around the world the advent of the Apocalypse might have consentrated political and religous minds on survival...actually think most folk would have rejected all of the the religous leaders out of hand? Mjdoch 13:30 April 9 2010 (UTC)

So much going on
sorry folks been off line for sometime and stuff just seesm to get in the way. I'll try and get back on line soon

Cheers Mjdoch

No worries :) Verence71 20:04, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

What happened to the terrorists?
Seriously? 1983 was one of the worst years of the Troubles, why isn't there a UDA bombing campaign for freedom? Why no IRA militia defending Armagh from unionist guerilla fighters? It needs to be addressed, it would add more depth to the story. The CA has come of very well in this TL, having a bit of civil disorder would even things out.Todyo1798 22:15, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Todyo might have a point with that.HAD 20:02, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Todyo, good point. Is there opportunity to noise things up a bit by getting the para-militaries involved with the military or fighting the military as a combined force? Mjdoch 13:40 April 9 (UTC)

Well the IRA wouldn't be a problem for the army, they'd either disband and sign up or work as vigilantes and militias for isolated towns and villages. Unionism was strongest in the east of NI, so they would have been badly affected by the fallout from Belfast. Having it centred in Derry would be the logical move, also moving to Scotland, Wales and Cornwall and continuing the fight there is likely.Todyo1798 14:21, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Popuation
Isn't the pouplation a bit low? even considering how nuked the UK was, surely it should be about 5.5 million?HAD 20:02, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Well their was the decade of fallout, radiation poisoning and the legalization of abortion. That would probably keep the population lowTodyo1798 17:18, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

New London and Loyalists
Firstly, i would like to state that i beleive the exsistence of New London to be inplausible, if not impossible. As the capital of the most important NATO member after the USA, it is described on the UK page as recieving at least "twelve seperate" nuclear denonations. These would probably been 100Kt bombs, oif the type fitted to the "Satan" ICBM. London would have been obliterated.

Secondly, i would like to state that Loyalist terroism would probably be a factor in the Alliance's history. Something like a "Loyalist League" could have caused the Alliance to experiance its own version of the "troubles".HAD 22:09, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Would that include Greater London though?? Verence71 11:03, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

New London is more than likely the biggest refugee camp in Southern England, a population so large that they decided to give them representation in parliament. And maybe it has a few of Londons outer

Two Maps
Which one do we go by?, the blue or yellow one?--Sunkist- 16:37, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Independence movements?
What do you think about some independence movements starting? particularly in Wales and Cornwall as they have strong inependance movements in reality--Smoggy80 17:04, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Are you talking about political parties like Plaid Cymru and Mebyon Kernow or armed separatist groups?? Verence71 18:33, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly both, there could be the political parties (like Plaid Cymru and others) working for independence of their little bits of the country, but there could also be small independent armed groups maybe like the real IRA, maybe the WRA (Wales) or CRA?(Cornwall) who don't want to be any part of the political process.

Wales in particular now has a separate nation along the old English border, once that gets discovered by the Celtic Alliance the people along the Welsh coast may want to join up with their fellow Welsh rather than remain with a basically Irish nation--Smoggy80 10:56, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * You've got Meibion Glyndwr in Wales and An Gof and the Cornish National Liberation Army in Cornwall Verence71 12:00, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

What about Ulster Loyalist groups? This would put the Alliance in an interesting situation. HAD 12:18, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

I would imagine that the Scottish New State would also sponsor armed separatists in the CA's Scottish territories Verence71 16:00, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

From what I can tell the modern day independence movements are to be independent from England, but I am an American so I guess you would know more, but in my opinion I think that Wales and Scotland would be more happy with fellow Celts than an English survivor nation for example. Arstarpool 19:23, September 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're right about the independence movements in OTL but in the Doomsday world I would think that after a while rule from Dublin might be seen as just as cumbersome as rule from London was Verence71 13:38, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

After talking to some of my Welsh friends they're of the opinion that they (the Welsh) would want their own country, separate from Ireland because, as they put it, they have nothing in common with the Irish (even the language is different) and with Wales being under English control for 700 years i think the Welsh would take any opportunity to become independent once the country had become stabilized after DD.--Smoggy80 16:23, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

So why have they stuck with the English for so long? Arstarpool 05:42, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

A lot of them have turned into monarchists - after the Tudors took power, the chance of a revolt became nil - they were, at least in part, welsh.

Otherwise, England alone has always out numbered Wales badly - somewhere in the region of 17:1 today, though it may not have been quite that bad through history.

Would be.... incredibly stupid to revolt, given the circumstances.

But take both out of the equation........ ;)

Lordganon 05:49, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

A new Capital
Guys it doesnt take a genius to know the union is basically an enlarged Ireland, so I am going to have this little competition to see whether or not we should change the capital. Vote below and dont double vote!

Where should the Capital be? Stay in Dublin Isle of Mann A Scottish city A Welsh city

If you chose a Scottish or Welsh city than please list it below. Arstarpool 19:23, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Owen and the provisional UK
Owens set up a page Provisional UK from his description on the map i think he's trying to claim all Celtic Alliance lands in southern Britain as his own--Smoggy80 15:57, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

I hereby cease my claims to Celtic Alliance Lands in southern England IE Devon and Cornwall. --Owen 16:36, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

There weren't claims to begin with. This is and always was Celtic Alliance territory! I am going to make the PUK obsolete now. If all of its territory is that of another nation and we have decided there is no room for states in the UK than it needs to go. Arstar [talk] 16:43, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Shrinking the Celtic Alliance
I've had this idea for a while but I would like to slightly reduce the size of the nations size in England as part of making the current situation in England and the rest of the UK more plausible. If anyone could make a map that would be great. The Celtic Alliance will also create a new territory for any English lands minus Cornwall which would like more independence from the mainly Scottish or Irish Celtic Alliance. This will become the "English Special Commonwealth" which is self-governing within the Celtic Alliance and will unite with Southern England soon or sometime down the road if the author of South England agrees. Arstar [talk] 16:54, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Arstarpool, you can't on the same talk page attack Owen for going against canon and then casually talk about changing the canon of the Celtic Alliance. This is one of the oldest articles in the entire TL, hundreds of articles are affected by it.  This article was written long before I even joined.  This is incredibly wrong.  Mitro 17:10, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

It is very possible that Cornwall could have a referendum about semi-independance, other lands could cede from the Alliance,(as that is effectivly what it is, a group of semi-independant states co-operating to get through the hard times after Doomsday) and form independant nations or join with existing nations. This therefore would not be going against canon, it would be starting a new chapter of the Celtic Alliance--Smoggy80 17:43, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * If this is happening now then there isn't the issue there would be if Arstar is making this retroactive to 1990 or whenever. I agree with Mitro in principle, especially about Owen and canon. Arstar needs to consider how this would affect others articles and the entire TL, not just what he considers to be his.--BrianD 19:51, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

It was just an idea...Do you see any changes to the article regarding this? No. It was an idea. Arstar 20:00, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

If you want to have a referendum about Cornwall (and possibly Devon) cedeing from the Alliance and becoming independant set the date for the Referendum sometime in 2011? that way if you change your mind about them becoming independant in the meantime the vote'll just come back no.--Smoggy80 10:10, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Borderlines between New Scottish State and the Celtic Alliance
I was hoping to set up a borderline between the Celtic Alliance and the New Scottish State.

I was thinking of using the old A714 as the border, but due to the bad history between the New Scottish State and the Celtic Alliance, of possible a de-militarized zone of 5 miles each side? with the A714 being in the valley bottom this would give both sides a good view of each other. What do you think?--Smoggy80 19:08, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

As part of the Ur Alba (old New Scottish State) military expantion, i've moved the border one road over westwards, from the A713 to the A714. I'm going to hold the border there for the rest of the year as Ur Alba has land to take over to the east first. But probably next year Ur Alba may have a fight with the Celtic Alliance over the town of Stranraer--Smoggy80 11:28, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Does the CA control all of Wiltshire?
I ask because I came across one of my old ideas for a survivor community, specifically one based in/around a really, really big bunker near Corsham in Wiltshire (Link) and I was wondering whether or not I could actually put it to use.Tessitore 14:12, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the CA definitely does not control all of Wiltshire. However, the area of that county where Corsham is definitely lying in areas under their control. Could do an article on it in some kind of past tense, however. It's not like the Celts have controlled the area since 1983 or anything. Lordganon 16:09, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Combined Islands in CA?
Your article states that the Isles of Scilly, Channel islands and Isle of Man have been grouped together. Is this likely?

Before DD the Isle of Mann was independant of the UK, having its own government (the Tynwald is actually older than the British Parliment) and Prime Minster (Chief Minister) and it's people are very proud of being seperate nation, so chances are it would be it's own seperate dependancy in the CA.

The same goes for the Channel Islands as they were seperated into two Baliwicks, these being Jersey and Gurnsey (including Alderney and Sark) so I can see them staying as two seats (or possibly three if Alderney got a seat) seperate to anywhere else in their own dependancy.

As for the Isles of Scilly they have traditionally been grouped with the mainland county of Cornwall.

--Smoggy80 18:04, June 17, 2011 (UTC)