Talk:Ninety-Five Theses (Map Game)

= Resources =

Map Issues
 All issues with the current map shall be posted under here.

The Mod Staff has worked hard to give you the best starting map possible, but we acknowledge that it is based upon a 1400 base map with (most) necessary corrections having been made. Please take a minute or two to look over the map sometime this weekend and post any inconstitencies you see so they may be corrected.

Thank You, 17:29, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

I assume you based the starting map off this. There is a unified state in northeastern India, when it should be three.

From :

Consul Ioshua (Talk)  02:29, February 14, 2016 (UTC) As many of you know, I have a lot of SVG maps at my disposal, but it's very difficult to find a format that is easy to share on the wiki. So after a few frustrating hours last night, I was finally able to export a World map of 1517 as a PNG and uploaded it to Imgur (it's too big for the wiki):

World Map 1517

From this map, I'm going to make some alterations to the signups list with Sat's permission I would like to thank Feud  for making Borealia possible  17:47, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Two issues with the Papal States. I own the one state next to the HRE that is to my North, and I also own Avinigon

Regards, Sat (Talk to me!) 00:05, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Map I made so the new map in a few years can know how much i expanded. - Scar



















1518 – While Persia is suffering assault by many powers, Kabulistan has offered the chieftains of Sistan, (the province beneath Kabul) the chance to join the Timurid Empire and raid across the Hindu Kush as equals. Sistan was a tribute of Persia, however reluctantly and the offer of safety   and the chance of doing so during war, thus avoiding conflict, may please them. Simmy1993 (talk) 03:21, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Portugal does not have most of its ports on the map (e.g. Goa, Malacca, the Azores) Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk) 05:41, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

^And Maluku Islands, Muscat (for now) and Hormuz. FP ( Now 10% edgier!!! )



<p class="MsoNormal">Hi for Songhai EMpire in Sub- Saharan africa all the reading I have been doing puts it's size and shape like this in 1500 http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/File:SONGHAI_empire_map.PNG plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire#/media/File:Songhai_Empire_(orthographic_projection).svg

<p class="MsoNormal">there are loads of other maps here https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A7x9UkrVksFW82wAo1x3Bwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsYWhiN2NvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2lyMgR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-iba-1&va=Songhai+Empire&hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-1  Person67 (talk) 16:25, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Technology Table
= General Discussion =

Moderator Applications
An application should be formatted like the following;

* Username & Link

** Games Modded Before

* Date Joined

** Edits

* A couple sentences on why you should be on my mod team.

For example, like this;


 * Saturn1257
 * Second Age of Imperialism (Never started)
 * February 22nd, 2014
 * 4,210
 * I would like to be a moderator for Nintey Five Thesis because this wiki hasn't seem any high-quality map games since the begining of PM. If you select me, I can help with mod events, plausibility modding, and overall make the game better.

Regards, Sat (Talk to me!) 17:05, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

''' Moderator applications are now closed. Thank you for all who applied! However, because of the amount of applicants, not everybody was able to be chosen. I formally apologize if you were not selected. So, without further ado, here is your Ninety Five Theses moderator staff! '''


 * Saturn1257
 * PitaKang
 * Feudalplague
 * Edgeofnight
 * Reximus55
 * CrimsonAssassin
 * Daxus Inferno
 * Krasnoyarsk

Applicants
<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Nathan1123
 * A Whole New world (Map Games Wiki), Dawn of War (Map Game)
 * December 28, 2014
 * 1,300 i think
 * This game involves heavy colonization early on, so I believe the game needs a moderator with a good understanding of that

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * ForsakenPear
 * The Greater Americas
 * November 29, 2011
 * ~1,100
 * I know my stuff on Reformation times and am a strong advocate of brutally realistic mod events so I think I could help keep things in check. Also I need something to do.

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Reximus55
 * Zeitgeist, Alternate Nations 3, Second Age of Imperialism (Never Started)
 * March 29, 2013
 * ~19,500
 * I will bring extensive experience and dedication to the overall functioning of this game. I will work to create a PM3-style set of pages and templates (as I did early on for that game), actively help update the map, and assist in the creation of mod events that fairly create plausibility. Additionally, I have a deep understanding of Early Modern European history, and would be an asset to the moderator team in that sense.

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 8)
 * November, 19, 2010 (get off my lawn)
 * 10,000
 * You know the drill. Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 8)

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Krasnoyarsk
 * Congress of Vienna Reloaded, The Global War (nothing good)
 * March 14, 2014
 * 2,147
 * I'm sane, competent, and playing a fairly small country and so unlikely to have a vested interest in any disputes. Plus I have a fair amount of knowledge about the period.

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Feudalplague (talk)
 * May 12 2013
 * Edits: 7414
 * Took a long break from the wiki but ive modded PMIII, created multiple games, and been mods of multiple successful games (a few of which have only died cause of some circumstances i couldnt help) Ive gotten alot better and grown up a bunch since being a PM Mod and am much more open to criticism and argument. Would love to join this promising Mod Team.


 * Edge
 * Pm3, AvA, A ton on the MGW
 * 12/12/13
 * 2,425
 * I can make maps, I can do algos, I can evaluate argumentation and mediate conflicts. I, unlike most of my fellow applicants, am not playing as a potentially major power or any nation at all. (See Feud, Pita, Nate, Kras, FP), meaning I can do any algo, mod response, etc with not interest because I don't have a nation. I'm also a professional hardass so I can't be bribed or persuaded by emotion. I can help write the rules, design the algo, etc. To continue the me circle jerk, I have a background in early European history,specially the 16-1800s. Edge will make AH great again. #VoteEdge1517

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Crim
 * PMI, PMII, PM III, a few AvA games, all BFE games
 * September 21, 2010 (fite me, Pita)
 * 7,011
 * I have extensive experience with modding before. I have the ability to say what needs to be said and do what needs to be said. As part of the Map Game Committee, I also intend to ensure that this map game doesn't get anywhere near the state of 'hectic.'

<p style="text-align:center;">*  *  *
 * Vivaporius
 * None
 * June 18, 2012
 * ~6,020
 * You all know who I am. I am the darkness in the night, the slippery part of the stairs you avoid, that chilly feeling you get when you eat bad oysters. I am, Viva! But on a more serious note, I have a good understanding of the period the game is taking place in, and a considerable knowledge on sources to check should there be any issues with the plausibility of the nations being played by members of the game. You can trust me. Really. You can.


 * Daxus Inferno
 * Almost, Almost 2, Almost 3, Treaty of Amiens, The 1848 Game, Shattered Stars and Stripes: The New Deal, a few others I forget, and I'm an admin of MGM
 * November 25, 2012
 * 3,640+
 * I think I'm honest enough to be quite unbiased and have just about never used mod powers to grant me benefit. I'm a dutiful map maker and I'm good at creative moderator events. I know a fair amount of history and old technology and demography from all around the world so I think I'd be good at ASB hunting. I'm also an experienced MG moderator and I think I reasonably and fairly intervene during player conflict. I think I could bring quite a lot to this game in terms of both flavor and order.

Map
If it was up to me I would like to go with the PMIII style map. <font color=Purple face="Algerian">OCT MARIUS, Hail Marius  23:01, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

I do not have the resources to make a Prinicpia Moderini style map. However, if a person decides to take the inititave and make such a map, I would automatically let that person choose whatever nation they please, and would also recieve honorary modship status. Sat (Talk to me!) 23:42, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

I agree that a PM-style map will greatly elevate the quality of this game. I don't have the time right to now to do the whole thing, but I have made a substantial start (which can be found here). I used the base PM3 map and made updates to the following regions: All other regions (notable, Africa, Asia, Africa, the HRE) still need updating. I'm using the original image Sat posted as well as other maps (including EUIV in 1517) to update the map. Other users who'd like a PM3-style map, please feel free to pick up where I left off. If not, I'll keep working on it later, but a collaboration would be much more preferable. 19:54, February 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * Iberian Peninsula
 * France
 * British Isles
 * Eastern Mediterranean
 * Persia
 * Japan

Thank you Rex. You'll be rewarded finely for this work. Sat (Talk to me!) 21:48, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

I updated Central Asia, India and Southeast Asia - although I'm a little shaky on some of the india stuff. . Shikata ga nai! 17:31, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Also, here's a (mostly) labelled map of Asia. Shikata ga nai! 16:13, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

Sign-Ups
Now, I am offically allowing sign ups to be opened at 5:00 (EST). Here's how the sign-ups system will work.

If a user wants your nation and is more experience than you, you may be removed and replaced with that player. The entire system will be based off of edits. If you disagree that you should be removed, come to me and I'll decide. I can also remove you from a nation slot that I feel you aren't capable of. Sat (Talk to me!) 02:55, February 3, 2016 (UTC)

Dark Blue Country
What is the dark blue country in Northern France on the map? PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 8)

Are you referring to Brittany? It is in a PU with France, as far as I recall from when I updated the map. 23:38, February 3, 2016 (UTC)

San Marino
There's a country called San Marino existent during this time (and today as well) that isn't in this Map Game yet. Was this left out deliberately? —  The  Tim   Man  (TSW • AH • MGW • <font color="#006400">Contribs ) 13:30, February 6, 2016 (UTC)


 * No, it wasn't left out deliberatley. The signs ups for the Holy Roman Empire and Italy are a little messed up at the moment, and most likely will be fixed soon. Sat (Talk to me!) 14:25, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

Are there any big feudal states in the HRE or Italy that i could sign up as, such as Bavaria or Pommerania? Wrto12 (talk) 13:32, February 6, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are. You just listed them. Like I said above, the sign ups are a bit of a mess, and will be fixed soon. Sat (Talk to me!) 14:25, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

Do NOT let history repeat itseself
I personally think that these are a few things that we can do to prevent the mistakes of the PM series.
 * Have a vasalization algorithm. I remember that there were many ASB vasalizations, and people vasalizatized states 2/3 of their size in three turns.
 * No massive attacks on one person. PMII seemed towards the end people would take turns ganging up a people.
 * Colinazation algorithm? In PMII there was ETHOPIAN CANADA.
 * Have a OTL alliances list. In the beginning of PMIII Poland Lituanina attacked Moscow, and because Ms was best friends with the Moscow player Edboy, he made all of Germany attack PL. I don't think that Moscow and Germany were OTl allies.
 * Limit number of alliances, there was a time where Feud was allied with everyone. Nuff said.
 * Make it about FUN, and remember this rule from I can't remember which map game series. "Not everyone can have a Liberial powerful nation". Have fun making your nation like OTL Monaco, or many other cool unpowerful nations.

Calm your titties Oct. You make it sound like the Ethiopian Canada was implausible. I had the ships, technology, and capability to colonize it. Mind you, let's not be selective here. There was a Chinese Alaska, German Armenia, Japanese West Africa, and Indian Argentina. They all had the ability to colonize and they did it. So you're really shooting yourself in the foot here when is selectively pick points to rationalize your argument, especially when your argument has no real leg to stand on. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 06:48, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Please not this again. Crim de la Crème 09:15, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Poland-Lithuaina stronk! KingSparta300 (talk) 23:54, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I'm all for letting the history be history. I'm just not pleased with Oct dredging this nonsense up again is all. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 04:51, February 8, 2016 (UTC)

Why oh why did we have to bring this mess up again? Cour *talk* 21:06, February 8, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Viva. I do not like these rules as they limit the game's possibilities and restricts them to a similar path as OTL. Just cause European powers colonised the Americas doesn't mean they're the only ones that have the capabilities to do so. ~<font color="Red">There was a candy,  and it said,  "Bruh, I'm coming for you, bruh. Oi, g'day mate you wanna mate?" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Country in the Philippine archipelago
That's the Kingdom of Tondo right? ~Candy

At this point, the Phillipines is highly disorganized and made up of numerous small, competing polities (and, technically, not even yet called the Phillipines). Its therefore coloured dark grey, representing disorganized territory. Much of it is under heavy Bruneian influence; Tondo is effectively a Bruneian puppet state in the early 1500s. Tondo, Maynila and Namayan are the largest of these small states at this point. Shikata ga nai! 13:11, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Contrary to your statement, the Kingdom of Tondo actually comprised that whole grey region. And if the grey region did represent disorganised territory then why not Mindanao, parts of Visayas, and North and Central Luzon coloured grey as well? All of those regions had some kind of tribal/indianised/sinicised/islamicised political entity. (picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Philippines_(pre_1521).jpg) ~<font color="Red">There was a candy,  and it said,  "Bruh, I'm coming for you, bruh. Oi, g'day mate you wanna mate?" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

That's patently false. That map is anachronistic and shows states that definitely didn't exist in 1517; i wouldn't rely on it. At some point in the early 1500s (probably pre-1517), Brunei attacked, defeated and subjugated Tondo, founded the in the area, and placed it under the control of Malay puppet rajahs. At this point, Manila proper and the immediate region around it is ruled by these rajahs (although the old Tondo dynasty possesses some symbolic power) and effectively a Bruneian satellite. The old dynasty retained some power and competed with Maynila for trade and regional dominance. A third, less Islamicized polity,, also held power in the region. Thus, there were three rulers in conflict by the Spaniards after their conquest of the region in 1571; one for each kingdom. All these polities are too small to wield power outside tiny heartlands, and their influence overlaps; therefore, the area is dark gray, since no centralized government holds power. Shikata ga nai! 17:00, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Map Color
If you want a different color for your nation or you don't have a color, post the color hex code you want below and I'll make stuff happen. Crim de la Crème 17:05, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Crim. I'm playing the Teutonic Knights and I'd like the color #666968, if you'd be so kind. -- Constantinus Byzantinus Maximus Talk At Me 18:52, February 9, 2016 (UTC)

Would definitely like this one 235802. Thanks in Advance

I would like #63462D for Benin. Don't know if it would be too dark. Thanks anyway. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 17:22, February 10, 2016 (UTC)

2f00ff for the Lowlands. <font color="Navy">Hail Sean! (Get a free potato here)


 * 1) ff8da1 for Duchy of Milan Please -Tomw1864

(~º•º)~ #FFBAD2 (or Cotton Pink) for Joseon, please~! <font color="Red">There was a candy,  and it said,  "Bruh, I'm coming for you, bruh. Oi, g'day mate you wanna mate?" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ~(º•º~)

Could you change the color of Scotland to #F7E017 please? Thanks. Nicktc 23:28, February 11, 2016 (UTC)

Can you make the color of Ethiopia be #fe9a3d, please? Thanks! :) DCUnited13

If possible could you make Kabul #DF0101 ? Thank you very much! Simmy1993 (talk) 00:06, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Alrighty! Posting map at midnight, EST. Anyone else have a preference on map color? Feel free to speak up! Crim de la Crème 20:46, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Give me a nice, Papal yellow for... *Awaiting intensifies* The Papal States. Sat (Talk to me!)


 * 1) b3b3ff for Genoa please - KawaiiKame

1517 World Map
Hey, just sharing this here in case it might be helpful for the playthrough! Its a 1517 map from the game Europa Universalis IV. Might help people visualise which nations truly owned what. :)

Simmy1993 (talk) 17:07, February 11, 2016 (UTC)

e Europa Universalis IV, the map isn't really detailed enough and misses a lot of stuff in Asia and the Holy Roman Empire. Also tribes in the Americas weren't states like that. Nlenhardt (talk) 20:21, February 12, 2016 (UTC)

I was only suggesting it as an option, perhaps to help people get their heads around some of the trickery borders, the map also comes with a black template showing 'de jure' areas. Was just a thought, sorry if I came off presumptive.

There are versions of the game that allow the filling out of the wastelands which I could grab, as I said I added it more for people to use to keep track of their own realms and other peoples, rather than trying to usurp the actual map.

Simmy1993 (talk) 20:24, February 12, 2016 (UTC)

Large Labeled map
As many of you know, I have a lot of SVG maps at my disposal, but it's very difficult to find a format that is easy to share on the wiki. So after a few frustrating hours last night, I was finally able to export a World map of 1517 as a PNG and uploaded it to Imgur (it's too big for the wiki):

World Map 1517

From this map, I'm going to make some alterations to the signups list with Sat's permission I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  17:47, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Technology Table
I see that the Technology Table (further up on this page) is inspired by EUIV, but we still need a legend or key. What exactly are the ideas to choose from? Tiers? Focusus? Etc... Cookiedamage (talk) 02:21, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Ignore above, I have been directed to the Tech explanations, thanks to Scar. Cookiedamage (talk) 02:42, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Request
Can i change my country from Bavaria to Terra Mariana, since i didn't know which countries where available, due to the mess in the sign ups???? Wrto12 (talk) 14:58, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Thanks http://prntscr.com/a35quf Wrto12 (talk) 16:57, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

1500 World Populations
Just leaving this link here, its a chart of world population distribution in 1500. Might help some work out their populations.

http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map8_ver5.pdf

Simmy1993 (talk) 21:36, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Papal Vassalation of Siena
Total: 75+-42 = 33 Years.
 * Location - Border's Nation = -10
 * Economy - Economic Development = -15
 * Modifiers
 * Cultural Affinity = -3
 * Alliance = -5
 * Technology Group
 * Target - Renisannce Europe = +5
 * Player - Renisannce Europe = +5
 * Chance
 * 286/7 = 40.387
 * 40.387*π = 128.291428571
 * Nation Age - Newborn nation = -10 (Helped get leader on throne)
 * Population - 5x - 10x larger in population = -10

Discussion
I think the vassalation algo needs a bit of work. 100 seems a bit too high. I say bring it down to 75. Sat (Talk to me!) 07:32, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the base of 75; additionaly, since you only border Siena, you only get -10 (not -15). Taken care of for you. 17:34, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. Sat (Talk to me!) 19:54, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Dropped Nations
I'm considering joining, and had a question. Are the rules about nation inactivity the same as PM? 5 turns without activity and another player can claim the nation? Cour *talk* 17:39, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

Algorithm
The current algorithm is fundamentally flawed, placing far too much weight on some categories and completely ignoring others. Here's an example. In OTL, the Ottomans easily crushed the Mamluks with a combination of much superior technology and 3:1 troop numbers. However, with this algo, the Mamuluks successfully drive off the Ottomans. This is in contrast to my algorithm that I used for AvA: Resurrection, which successfully simulated three conflicts in three different eras: the Ottoman-Mamluk War, Napoleon's invasion of Russia, and the Nazi invasion of France.

Ottomans

 * Location: Near = +20
 * Motive: Political hegemony = +7
 * Support: Medium cavalry support = +10
 * Troops: 150,000 = +15
 * Technology: +5%
 * Chance: 5
 * Total: 57 + 5% = 59.85

Mamluks

 * Location: At = +25
 * Motive: Wipe out nation = +10
 * Defensive: Heavy fortification = +20
 * Support: Medium cavalry = +10
 * Troops: 50,000 = +5
 * Chance: 5
 * Total: 75

Thus, I propose that we adopt a new, more comprehensive algorithm instead of the one we have currently.

PitaKang- (Talk to me | Kill count: 8)

I support Pita's algo. When it comes down to it, the algo is all about simulating realistic, real-life conflits. His algo can do that successfully. Cour *talk* 17:57, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

I still have yet to see how they were all that successful. In general the algorithm needs to be on a battle by battle to incur the real depth of it. I refuse to see blanket wars where a single algo decides the fate of an entire empire. Thats ridiculous. In general we can all discuss what needs to be changed but developmental scores that fall off cause someone left for a weekend are another issue i have. Im open to change, but i refuse to budge on battles, and development scores. They cause too many problems and those kinds of algos cause all sorts of problems -Feud

Angan vassalization of Zia
Result: 75-78= -3
 * Next to the nation: -10
 * Part of similar cultures: -5
 * Cultural affinity: -3
 * Recent political marriage: -10
 * Tribe: -10 (Target)
 * Tribe: -10 (Player)
 * Chance: (3804/1*8*2*7)*pi=106.701950484 = 0
 * Newborn nation: -10 (Player)
 * Maturing nation: 0(Target)
 * Population: -20

Which means 5, I'm guessing.