Talk:Europe 1430 (Map Game)

Henry VI
''Henry VI is only 9 years old in 1430, and considered insane. How is he concerned with absolute power?''ProfessorMcG 16:05, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Some inaccuracies
England couldn't sell their french lands because at this time they only controlled them at this time of the 100 years war, they were English occupied French lands that England claimed because of the royal line's origins as Norman noblety. But the French King legally stripped the duke or whatnot of Normandy of his lands and titles in France, so the claims aren't recognized internationally. Also, Genoa is a merchant republic, so its King can't also be King of Ukraine because it has no King. Also, Orkney and Shetland are part of Norway, not independent. Oerwinde 17:44, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

You are right on the first two parts and I was about to post something about it, but the last part is not. Orkney and Shetland were independent. I made the starting map. And as a side note Shetland and Orkney were sold to Scotland in 1468.ProfessorMcG 20:09, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't find any mention of them being independent. The wikipedia articles have both Orkney and Shetland as part of Norway until Christian I put them up as security against the dowry for his daughter when she was engaged to the king of Scotland. When the dowry wasn't paid, the islands became part of Scotland. The closest thing to independence was Orkney at this time was ruled by a scottish Earl who owed fealty to the King of Norway. Oerwinde 08:33, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

How do the Habsburgs lose power in a year when they eventually become the most powerful ruling house in Europe?


 * Also, the HRE isn't a centralized state, it's many duchies, bishoprics, countys, kingdoms, free cities, etc. And in fact Bohemia, Burgundy, Luxembourg, Teutonic Knights, Swiss Confed. Savoy, and Brandenburg are part of the empire. At this point the King of Luxembourg is the Holy Roman Emperor, so if the Habsburg lands are absorbed by the empire (which it already was part of), it actually means the lands were absorbed by the king of Luxembourg. Also, attacking the Teutons is also declaring war on the Holy Roman Emperor, which could bring all the aformentioned nations into the mix.Oerwinde 08:33, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Record!
It's already completely ridiculous and it only took 9 years.ProfessorMcG 00:30, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Its not completely ridiculous. We haven't got colonialism or spaceships and their is no sign of any one country becoming more vastly important than all the others. You are just being picky. Bob 08:46, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Half of this stuff makes no sense.ProfessorMcG 23:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Bohemia
The King of Bohemia is the freaking king of HRE ProfessorMcG 20:39, May 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Holy Roman Emperor had no real power within the various states of the HRE. His only real power until the reforms of the late 1400s to mid 1500s was that he could levy troops to defend or war against agressors to the empire. Once the Habsburgs began to reform the empire creating the imperial courts, imperial circuits, etc. the Emperor got much more prestige and such. Until this time, the Emperor only had any real power over his own lands, which is why at the beginning of this game, the Habsburgs only had some small holdings, but by the time the Margrave of Brandenburg declared himself King in Prussia, they had established real control over much more of the HRE, and after the 30 years war it was mostly known as the Austrian empire rather than the Holy Roman Empire. In this game though, the Bohemian king has reformed the empire slightly earlier, but is still going through the process the Habsburgs did in using marriage and inheritance to build their territory. Oerwinde 08:30, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool ProfessorMcG 01:44, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

Spain + Genoa = What?
Genoa is a republic. How could Spain gain control of it through marriage? Keperry 23:38, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

Its Spain and Naples. Bob 08:34, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Italia!!!!!!?
Naples was part of the Spanish Empire. they don't just leave for no reason!! Destroyanator 03:45, May 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Papal states would also not give up their authority to a secular ruler. VENEZUELA also took two turns. And the USAAR magically eliminating poverty and running around conquering things on the other side of the mediterranean was silly. Spain releasing an independent client state in the holy land only for them to revolt and rejoin Spain didn't make sense either. I'm rolling it back.Oerwinde 04:26, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

USAAR?
This is probably the most implausible thing to happen so far. How does a popular revolution with no previous mention suddenly claim portions of two nations without them doing anything about it, spur a popular revolution in a foreign country that joins the previously created nation, then collect enough troops to invade and annex the most populated area of Europe all in a year? This is about equivalent to Maine, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia all declaring themselves a new nation in January, the Cuban people rising up and handing the country over to this new nation in march, then the combined country invade Washington DC and annex Maryland and Virginia in August. Its stupid.Oerwinde 06:10, May 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is why we have the power to edit. Edit and DESTROY IT!!!!!! I love saying that.ProfessorMcG 13:51, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

USAAR IS POSSIBLE
1. Ukraine and Georgia are not powerful.

2. like communism in east europe the revolution in moldovia might happend.

3. They have weapons and army because they were in a war between genoa and ukraine, you can see that in the map.

4. with the help of Khanate of Golden Horde wich wasn't at war with any other countrie they are more powerful, also with the help of warrichia.

5. it's imposible that the black sea is the most populated part in Europe, they can take it easy specilly with the help of the others members of the golden alliance.

6. Genoa was already weakened because it was invaded by Autana Authenia in 1477 and the "empire" of trebizond is NOT powerful and very small.

7.with the help of the militia of the golden alliance (USAAR, khanate of golden horse, warrichia. plus ex-ukraine ex-trebizond ex-genoa and some ex-georgia) they might defeat Bulgaria.

8. they have been invading since 1479 and the last part they have invade is in 1483, in 5 years.

You forget about the religion factor. at this point in time, the accepted christian doctrine was that kings had a divine right to rule by declaring that kings don't, the USAAR would provoke a crusade from all the surrounding christian nations.

a allied or enemy crusade?

Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldovia aren't very populous. Constantinople is the largest city in Europe with a population of nearly 600 thousand. This is more than the total population of most countries, and is likely more than the total population of the entire USAAR when it invaded. Now with the only holdings being the Anatolian Genoan holdings, and Trebizond, they don't have the manpower to take anything back. The population of Moldavia is Christian, they would not ally with the muslim nomads of the Golden Horde. The dominant forces in the Black Sea are Bulgaria and Genoa, Genoa having the largest navy and a firm hold on much of Greece. A small upstart revolution wouldn't have much of a chance against the dominant navy in the Black and Aegean seas. And being a republic, their anti-royalist doctrine wouldn't have any effect on the populace.

In short. The USAAR cannot defeat Genoa.

The only thing remotely plausible is its possible existence. But it would emerge in some sort of opressive monarchy rather than a republic (which Ukraine is). And it would take a while to build, not suddenly taking the lands of like 9 countries in a year. Oerwinde 20:29, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Ukraine independence?
USAAR annexed Ukraine because the doge united, later someone put that the doge was eliminated and Ukraine gain independence. If the doge is killed Ukraine will remain part of USAAR because it's no more controled by the doge.

Plausibility is a Rule people.
Ok, the ridiculousness of the USAAR is getting bothersome. Its implausible especially considering the nations around the black sea aside from Genoa and Bulgaria at this point are extremely weak and not very populous making mass conquests extremely unlikely. Popular revolutions arising in far off countries almost simultaneously are also ridiculous especially the timeline of the revolutions. Its also turning into a back and forth between VENEZUELA and Catherine who don't play the map games right prefering to take control of one country and ignore the rest of the world, this has caused the religious war in German to pretty much halt for 10-15 years for no reason. I propose rolling back to before the USAAR was created. I apologize to Catherine for this as she has put a lot of work into whats going on with Britain, and it hasn't been disruptive like the USAAR stuff has been.Oerwinde 01:29, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, the USAAR is back and forth because It was normal and for no reason Bulgaria, Hungary, Bohemia, and Genoa attack when it dind't even touch them.


 * Bohemia didn't touch them, they have enough on their plate with this TL's version of the 30 years war going on in Germany. Bulgaria responded to a threat, Genoa was invaded and fought back against the USAAR's far inferior forces along with helping their ally Ukraine, and with the USAAR obviously agressive and beligerent attitude, just letting them establish themselves wasn't an option for Hungary. The main issue I have is with popular rebellions happening in countries with no contact with the USAAR and overtaking the legitimate government almost immediately, the USAAR easily annexing Genoa's holdings on the Black Sea, despite having firm control and it being the richest and most populous area of Europe at this point, and now you have Spain, a Genoan ally, suddenly turning on Genoa and allying with the USAAR over them taking muslim lands. None of it makes any sense. If the USAAR came to this point over 30-100 years I'd be completely ok with it. Like say Ukraine starts implementing reforms making it closer to the USAAR's ideals, and after about 10 years is a full on social republic rather than a merchant republic, then begins putting agents around to spur popular rebellions resulting in a Georgian and Moldovian revolution 10-20 years later. These would be separate republics allied with Ukraine which could form a union many years later, but they would likely be allies. Then they begin building a fleet and army and invade Genoan holdings like 20 years after that. That would be plausible. Bohemia has become a powerhouse, but its taken 60 years to get to this point, not 5 and have basically replaced the Habsburgs.Oerwinde 01:59, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Should we roll back to before the USAAR is created and start over from there. Yes, its silly and makes no sense No, its completely plausible Let it exist but ensure that it remains plausible.

If the poll is still within one vote by tomorrow I'm just going to leave the decision up to ProfessorMcG, the creator of this game on whether he wants to revert it or not.Oerwinde 05:39, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Let us play 1492
Seriously unlock the 1492 section so we can play it!

-Ownerzmcown


 * Its locked until the question of the USAAR is resolved. It would be pointless to have people writing more and more history only to have it all deleted. I should have done it sooner to be honest.Oerwinde 05:12, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Rollback
I'm going to rollback the time and restart before the USAAR. And if your photo is not a .png I am automatically deleting it. ProfessorMcG 18:03, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Start playing again
You guys need to start playing Europe 1430 again!

Ok, its unlocked and reverted go for it. Catherine, sorry the reversion went too far back to really save anything, but if you check the history logs you can still find what you wrote once the years come up again so you don't have to re-write it.Oerwinde 05:44, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Bavaria and the HRE
Bavaria is already part of Bohemia. Make sure you read previous history first. The part on the map that was marked as Bavaria is actually Wurtemburg, Baden, the imperial city of Frankfurt, Elsass, Mainz, part of the Palatinate, Ansbach, and Trier .Oerwinde 17:40, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Also, you can't just arbitrarily cecede from the HRE. Even Bohemia despite its war within the empire is still a part of the empire, it just holds lands outside of it. Prussia is different as it wasn't a traditional part of the empire. Technically the French HRE lands are still a part of the empire.Oerwinde 18:09, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Come one guys, before the whole USAAR problem I had Bavaria on the map and nobody even made a fuss about it when I invaded the HRE, so why can't I own a country that doesn't want to be part of the HRE and just wants to be independent from the whole HRE, I don't see any reason why not.

-Ownerzmcown

You can't 'own a country'. In map games one doesn't own a country. if you want to own a country at least don't play on my map game. If we all owned a country, everyone would be vying for power and we would have non-stop wars for power. No country would ever fall apart and when one country became powerful another would use that to thier advantage to make their country all the more powerful. I don't see how it works.ProfessorMcG 20:47, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't understand that completely and now that I do I look forward to playing completely by the rules.

-Ownerzmcown

Also, when you were dealing with Bavaria before you were editing established history on the archive page. Which is A) Against the rules, and B) is the archive page so most of us weren't even looking at it.Oerwinde 15:37, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well that didn't take long
Ok, so now we have the legally elected pope elected by a conclave of cardinals killed along with all the nobles of Prussia. An assassination plot headed by the church no less. An assassination ploto that large would have been discovered. A dead family becoming the most powerful in the HRE despite half the HRE including Bohemia not even acknowledging the pope. Christopher columbus arrested for something that isn't a crime (Are all the merchants heading to Britain, Portugal, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, etc. arrested as well?)

Also, multiple people editing the same year unless its spelling/grammar correction = against the rules.Oerwinde 08:33, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

The King of Naples is part of Spanish Empire. he certainly would have taken part of the purges Destroyanator 06:03, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Turns
Seems people are having a problem understanding the rules. I already blocked Ownerzmcown for editing other people's turns despite being warned to follow the rules. 1 turn = 1 year. Each person gets a year and can't post again until another year is posted. That doesn"t mean post a year and once someone posts a new one edit their post. The history shows people posting history for 3 years in a row, this is against the rules of the game. Also, pay attention to the established history and stay plausible.

United Kingdom of Great Britain, Navarre, and Habsburg
No. We've already established Navarre as subsurvient to Britain a few times so a unification of Navarre and Great Britain is acceptible. But there is no way such a power hungry person as the King of Habsburg would just hand his kingdom over to Britain. Not going to happen. Britain would have to conquer it, and as they've established that they're allies, not going to happen. And Saxony joining? WTF? Not only are they hostile towards Habsburg, but they're a Hussite nation which would cause problems and are a part of the Brunswick Pact which was formed to counter Habsburg.Oerwinde 20:57, May 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Checking the history and it was the result of someone editing someone else's turn anyway, so its deleted.Oerwinde 21:08, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Spread of Paganism
Scandinavia was notoriously difficult to Christianize and christianization wasn't complete until the 1200s, so with the Catholic scandal Norse Pagans could conceivably make a comeback, but Germany has been christian for like 600 years longer, Paganism was wiped out. Muscovy and Novgorod were Orthodox, they didn't suffer the crisis of faith that the Catholics did, so there would be no plausible reason for them to convert.

Also, the King of Prussia is a protestent. He started the Church of Prussia, similar to the Anglican church, it is a christian church. He is not a pagan. All these rulers converting to Paganism would cause huge unrest as the populace is like 99% christian.Oerwinde 07:06, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Invading Germany
I think that its not plausible that every country in Europe keeps invading Germany and think that something should be done about it!

-Ownerzmcown

Its also implausible that a country that gets bitchslapped as much as Habsburg is able to conquer everything. Anyway, its a MAP GAME, and there are no maps so I'm rolling back to the last map.Oerwinde 19:02, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Ban Catharina950
Who else here thinks Catharina950 should be banned from editing this article?

-Ownerzmcown

Rollback
So I get up this morning and I have calls to ban people, and ridiculous garbage on here. Starting with 1522 and the conversion of the King of Sardinia to Roman Paganism, a religion thats been dead for 1500 years. And with no maps for 30 years it got confusing. So I just rolled it back until people can figure out that a Map game is about the Maps, not trying to outdo each other.Oerwinde 19:10, May 30, 2010 (UTC)