Talk:DME (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

Discussion of the plans
Can we not just have a pact to all support one another against non-Muslim aggressors for the time being? It provides the same benefit of protection plus we retain greater control of our respective nations.

An idea I have for an interesting way to establish this caliphate is we have a rise up and re-establish the great Muslim caliphate. The Mahdi establishes a large caliphate after taking over all of our nations, and then goes on to big himself up with religious feelings after people start thinking its the. As the supposed end of the world draws closer all of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgment occur and the Muslim world gets ready for the end of the world. Then when nothing happens and the world doesn't end, a huge renaissance of liberal thinking takes place as it turns out the Mahdi was a fraud and the world doesn't end. The caliphate then enters a period of civil disarray, which ends up with it either collapsing and we divide the territory up between ourselves or we form a federation like caliphate. For me it seems more likely the Mahdi being caught out as a fraud to throw the caliphate into civil disarray, and then a bunch of local warlords & leaders fight for control, ending up in a series of successor states.

Anyway what you guys think of that? The eschatology has always interested me so I figured using some to create this state would be interesting. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sound intesting for an Althistory! But, I was planning something a small bit more prestigious, say like the Caliphate (as said). But the idea you presented was very similar to what I did at the end of PMI. Saamwiil (talk) 20:23, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to go ahead with this plan you certainly have my support. We could stretch it over a few decades as we have this Mahdi rise to power, and then when his caliphate extends over the entire, we can have that when the Mahdi is in control upon the earth for certain time, seven, nine or nineteen 7, 9, 19 years, after which ensues the death of all civilization just preceding the Judgement. During this period we have the other signs being noticed but then eventually nothing happens and the thing collaspes in on itself.

Just wondering how you intend to make it more prestigious? This plan half includes the Caliphate going super expansionist, trying to take over all of the world. I can't really think how much more prestigious we can get lol. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

For the Mahdi, we could have the 1428 Catalan Earthquake, the 1481 Rhodes Earthquake and 1509 Istambul Earthquake, and some big fire-war for the smokes. The sun rising from the west might be the discovery of the Americas if the Muslims have a part on it, or Granada/Morocco/Mali rising under a ruthless pan-Islamic leader (which can be the Fake Messiah). That or a new Christian Crusade (the Messiah being Jesus). Gog and Magog might be an Uzbek resurgenece seeking to restore Timur's Empire or even more, the Mongol Empire? (in which case Gog and Magog might be the Uzbeks and their leader, the Uzbeks and the Hindu or the Uzbeks and the Mongols). It's the Beast and Jesus which I can't see coming back.

Though if we skip those two we might be in a pretty good position to put a fake Mahdi in and create the DME. Fed (talk) 23:09, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, can there not be a fake Mahdi, maybe something slightly more moderate, like a fake decendant from Muhammad. Saamwiil (talk) 23:14, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

A proper descendant of Muhammad might happen in the, and it'd be cool to have a new Caliph, but a unified nation wouldn't be able to exist because a descendant of Muhammad would make everybody Shi'ite and nobody wants that if you're Sunni. Fed (talk) 23:38, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

True dat man, but Sunnis wouldn't mind, as long as they're not the only choice... Let's see..... How about a slow building, through marriages. Saamwiil (talk) 23:42, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's more likely, and with the three earthquakes and some of the prophesies being fullfilled, we can also have an extremist faction believing that the Hashemites are actually the Mahdi, leading to them to add the title of "Mahdi" to the full title of the Caliph.

I also believe we could do some sort of personal union with maybe some sort of more individual national rights. Fed (talk) 23:49, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Customs Monetary Union Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:50, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I was planning to keep individual national rights. We'd only adopt things a majority of us voted on... Saamwiil (talk) 23:51, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

So we could vote for something like the Geneva Convention except name it the Medina Convention. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:52, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well something less formal. Say I married the Mamluks and the Marininds marry Granada.

Nasrids. not Granada

Hm? Saamwiil (talk) 23:57, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah we can always make up an even worse earthquake if necessary, natural disasters probably won't happen exactly how they did in OTL so I can always do a mod event for 3 large devastating earthquakes. We could use a huge wildfire in southern Sudan for the "Fire from the west of what is now Yemen" and this could be the smoke too. If not we could have a big volcano explosion which is mostly ash.

The beast we could have as people living in the desert claiming to have seen it and maybe even a copycat serial killer? As for Jesus, someone could claim to be him but I'm not too sure if we'd be able to have him do miracles & stuff. TBH if we get the other stuff done then this stuff can just be from misinterpretations of people who are all caught up & flustered with the approaching end of the world. We'd just keep this stuff vage, but not sure how we have Jesus assist the Mahdi in restoring Islam, unless we have a fake Jesus too.

As for a fake descendant from Muhammad, we could include this in with this plan, as in the Shia view of the Mahdi and, has the Mahdi being an infallible male descendant of the founder of Islam, Muhammad, was born but disappeared, Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi. Besides there have been many potential Mahdi in OTL, so if his and his father's names were the same as Muhammad's and his father's, and he had come to Mecca from the north, then they can sort of begin claiming to be Mahdi. Give the Mahdi more success in battle than the potential Mahdi in OTL, and more people will believe & support their divinity.

We can always do other caliphate stuff after this plan, and you'll have my support if you want to do your own caliphate plan later on. But I think this plan is too awesome not to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my point was for a more mild thing if we didn't want to follow all those clues as precisely so that it was somewhat more plausible. But I'm all for the Mahdi, and it being around the 1490s (so that either Granada/Morocco/Mali rises or America is discovered, and thus "the sun rises from the west").

BTW, another coincidence; the Marinid's symbol was a star. Maybe the Mahdi is a Marinid after a Marinid marries a Hashemite? Fed (talk) 00:07, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah he can be. Like you say, yeah we won't be able to have it precisely, but if most the stuff happens and we have all the hype, we can just have much of that stuff as vague gossip which is sensationalized into near-fact. Its just the Jesus helping the Mahdi I'm struggling to work out, I mean we could always make a divergent timeline where Jesus really does come down to Earth and the day of judgement actually happens. Otherwise Jesus not appearing and the world not ending could be the cause of the Mahdi to loose followers, until it slowly just collapses on itself. That coupled with a few battles being lost and the Europeans managing to push us back. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:30, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, for late response had to make Moroccan Tea and eat KusKus with the family. Hmm. All good ideas. Trying to fuse and integrate. Maybe in the same year, there is 3 earthquakes near the capitals of this nation, and they take it as a sign of God, including the death of the heir. And say the daughter of the Mamluk Sultan claims to be a heshimite and the Maranid King marries her. Making him king. Then my heir dies so a daughter marries a Prince of Oman. After 20 years, the same things happen to those unions... Saamwiil (talk) 00:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You can just take over Oman by conquest. It'll be easier, and I wanna get rid of the Nabhan Dynasty and establish a new dynasty anyway. You can simulate wars if both sides agree to the outcome so this should speed things up, otherwise we'll loose the Timurid/Mongol threat VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:12, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So I conquer you. Mamluk makes Granda a semivassel. I have no sons, mary the Mamluks. We'll see about the Maranids. We have to make the DME more contiguos before we include them (Say annexing the Hafsids, which might take time). Saamwiil (talk) 01:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Right then, until then I'll continue to expand into the Bedouin territory. Perhaps the Mamluks start a war against the Hasfids now? Also I think we should re-organise this stuff into a clear time frame plan of what we do, so we all know what we need to be doing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:36, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'm going to post a plan and move all of this to the talk page, fine with you. ~Saamwill

Fine by me.

If y'all still want a Turko-Mongolic threat to arise, I will see what I can do. Do you have a specific time you want? (preferably in the next couple decades before the khanates all start getting crushed by the Chinese and Russians)LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ottomans
Oh and try get DeanSims on-board with this plan could someone? His Ottoman Empire will be an important asset to the caliphate. Anyway I'm going to bed now so you'll have to wait a few hours for anymore output from me VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:45, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we will before colonization.

The plan & rough outline of each stage
I'll conquer some of the Smaller Turksih states after expanding, about another 3 years or so. Saamwiil (talk) 17:26, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I amended a bit because us people in the plan mean we can go for a multiple of plan goals with our individual nations. This will not only arose less suspicion, it also means we don't risk overstretching ourselves. So basically since these things are sure-fire to definitely happen we should pursue the more difficult goals which aren't entirely in our hands (e.g. conquering NPC nations), plus otherwise if you conquer me dead early on, I don't have much to do in the game & I don't wanna get too bored. Plus if I stay allied with you and remain independent you get a higher score in the algorithm from military aid being sent to you from your allies.

Anyway specifically on Aq Qoyunlu conquering Oman, I plan for Oman to continue expanding for a while until border disputes and rivalry ends up with war breaking out. Basically Oman starts to get too cocky with its navy, so You & the Mamluks defeat me on land but Oman's greater naval strength allows Oman to put off an aquatic invasion by your Turks, then you plot with another Omani noble family to have them overthrow the Nabhan Dynasty, and this new Omani noble family who consqired with you stages a coup and overthrows the Nabhan & bows down to Aq Qoyunlu to become a vassal state.

Basically stage 1 is take over the near-by NPCs, expanding into the unclaimed black territory as much as possible. This period should also allow us to build up our infrastructure. E.g. I plan for Oman to become the dominant naval power in Arabia and the Indian Ocean, to give the future caliphate a nice building block to build a strong navy and large trade empire/income/connections. Plus we can use this stage as a building period to make sure we have other Muslim nation players on board with the plan who are yet to declare loyalty in joining the plan.

Stage 2 is when we join together either via marriage, vassalization, puppet states or conquest. The marriage unifying Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks, is the final joining peace. The new Barbarian khanate rises in the east too, perhaps lead by another great military genius like Gengis Khan or Timurlame.

Stage 3 is when the caliphate is formed, a short civil war may break out as this is formed. Then a new caliphate comes to power after he dies, and the future Mahdi comes to become the Caliph. The Mahdi caliph's authority is solidified by great military victories and some of the signs of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgement, to the point he goes and declares himself the Mahdi.

Stage 4 is when the Mahdi now rules over nearly all of the Ummah, and he wages many successful wars against the Barbarians, Europeans, Africans and Indians. This period of super expansionism lasts nine years as foretold by the hadiths, as the muslim armies spurred on by the Mahdi try to conquer the world & make it Muslim, ready for the day of judgement. More hadith signs are noticed and the caliphate goes mental with religious duty, feelings and terrified celebration as the day of judgement is nearly upon them.

Stage 5 is less mental super-expansionism, and the Mahdi begins to loose some support. The caliphate expands more slowly and battles begin to be lost. This will probably be when the Holy Roman Empire ends up unifying, and they push us out of Europe. This period lasts ten more years, and as the 20th year of the Mahdi's rule takes place, most people begin to question whether he really is the true Mahdi as the day of judgement still hasn't occurred. Perhaps a huge natural disaster happens so people think its the day, but it really isn't?

Stage 6 is the downfall of the Mahdi's caliphate, the Mahdi is found to be a fraud (perhaps a fake Jesus who claims to be divine is caught out, and the Mahdi looses his legitimacy). We all split up, as the empire looses even more against its enemies, and factions in the caliphate split it up between themselves, as it all collapses in on itself.

So is this okay with you all? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:52, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So you do want me to make a strong barbarian khanate? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:11, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

When we're just about finished with stage 1, yes please. I'm thinking a new military genius leader likened to Gengis Khan, Atlia or Tamerlane takes over. This could happen as he tries to establish a new great khanate/hoard as the other ones around him seem to be failing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:18, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we're underestimating what the Christian nations will do in the north. We barely held the Muslim foothold in the Iberic Peninsula, and now all the nations in the area noted this, forming alliance and whatnot. Though Christian Nations are no threat right now, France and England and their respective coalition practically dividing the powerful nations of the Christian World, Christian Nations as they grow stronger will take tough action. Ianian58 (talk) 20:32, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but since anti-European expansionism will last ~20 years, then we will most likely take them by surprise. And the conquest will not take long; we'll just take a large swathe of territory then collapse and lose it.

This Mahdi caliphate is a simulated special event like the Mesheryakovist wars in PM1. This plan isn't designed to make an ever lasting caliphate to rule the world, so we will conquer bits of Europe but eventually as the Mahdi is seen not to be the real one then the whole thing looses speed until it collapses in on itself. We already know Europe will win eventually, but this plan will deal them a deadly blow which will put them a couple of years behind such as stopping them collonizing the Americas as easily as many Europeans will die. Plus the players taking part in this plan will be able to carve out larger successor states as the caliphate collapses.

The only way this plan actually lasts forever is if the day of judgement actually happens and the world ends. This plan will lead to much less fundamentalist Islam, as the thing just turns out to be a lie and people start questioning more about the religion (e.g. if that guy really wasn't the Mahdi, how do we know the prophet really was a prophet?). Oman for one is going to be much less conservative & religious for one, and more secular atheist nation, allowing it to be more scientific in the future. Everyone else is free to do whatever they want with their nations, but that is what I'm planning to take from the failure of this caliphate.

It also gives us a better foundation for a EU-esque caliphate in the future. This is not an end-game project, its just a special event to spice things up and make things easier for us Muslim nations in the future. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:06, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, since the leader will probably be an exile from the fallen Oirats Khanate, he would be Buddhist. So you said you wanted there to be two threats to Islam (Gog and Magog), so the two threats would be the Mongols and the Buddhists. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be a redundancy? I mean, the Buddhist would be the Mongols wouldn't they?

Maybe the Uzbeks and the Uyghurs (Oirats) could work... Fed (talk) 01:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, since the Empire is in a bit of tough times with Italy, it's not like they will really be able to field their full strength if we sneak in a few troops into Malta and Sicily. (OF COURSE, this is an entirely "me speaking as Fed" post, not as me "speaking like the Mamluk Sheik", since it's a secret event as of now) Fed (talk) 01:47, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Their should be 2 or 3 Caliphs before the fake MAHDI, the third one not leaving a successor, therefore allowing the fake Mahdi to rise to power due to loyalty of followers against many weak pretenders to the throne. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, while we have the first 2 or 3 Caliphs we assimilate all the other territories into the Caliphate, and then once we get the Mahdi we start a huge war campaign against Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:22, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Then one after, which the Empire would fall apart with. First the farthest Territories, Morocco and Granada, then Oman revolt, then finally the split between the Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu. This would all take about 10 years in my mind.Saamwiil (talk) 07:05, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm thinking the great generals split up the caliphate between themselves too. We'll have a large civil war/power vacuum. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Positions in the caliphate
No semi-vassal. I want to be my own independant country. In this Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks get to go super expansionist and get to have lots of fun conquering while I get stuck as a cruddy vassal. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 22:22, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's why you're a semi-vassal. You can do whatever you want, we just need you to officially be a vassal so that we can have every muslim country apart of it. However, you should focus on your navy, and exploration, so you can get lots of land in the New World. Saamwiil (talk) 04:08, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

The Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu join together to form the caliphate, you as a vassal of the Mamluks then join the caliphate too. If you don't want to become a vassal then be assimilated into the caliphate like that, you could have Granda be conquered by the caliphate or your leader declares loyalty to the caliph and has Granda join the caliphate. Like Sammwill I also recommend you focus on your navy, and exploration, so Granda can get lots of land in the New World. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:17, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

So, I think I (Morocco) should try to counter European Colonism on important costal areas in the sea. Ianian58 (talk) 18:21, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead, the more the merrier, eh? Saamwiil (talk) 07:03, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking perhaps once the caliphate itself is formed, we each post as one of the caliphate's great generals waging war on one of the many fronts of the caliphate. Any other thoughts on what we're going to do individually when we're one big caliphate? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:11, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that could work, but I think more as posting as provinces of the Caliphate, which will slowly increase in number as the end of the Mahdi's rule approaches. So an activity per province, if we post as generals, it would show a lack of support from the other generals, which I don't think would be accurate. Saamwiil (talk) 20:19, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Bit of a problem
Okay guys, we have a bit of a problem for our contiguous DME, which is the Pope has invaded Tunisia. We need to act quickly to make as much of the problem end IMO, so I'm invading Tunisia this turn if there's no objections and advise the Marinids to do the same. Fed (talk) 01:00, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I will send you military aid. However, we must also help Tunisia against the Pope. Making it more of a 3-way war... The pope must not have Muslim lands! Saamwiil (talk) 01:06, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

So we side with the Hafsids and help them throw the Pope out but refuse to return their lands? Fed (talk) 01:43, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, about. And take some if possible. Saamwiil (talk) 01:49, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Be sure to write your support in the war. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that everyone show support for Tunisia, we can begin to weaken European powers. Saamwiil (talk) 02:47, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry but I am not joining this plan. But this does not effect our alliances in-game so no meta-gaming. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 03:01, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Why you not joining this plan then? You realize if your not on board then you'll just have to be conquered as we invade Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:21, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Can't support much, Maranid isn't exactly a peacful, stable, growing kingdom. Ianian58 (talk) 22:32, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay. Just invite some Mamluk advisors, (Aq Qoyunlu is more of a federation), and focus on your navy and exploration.Saamwiil (talk) 03:28, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah once your country is part of the caliphate, Maranid's instability & stuff won't be a problem as the caliphate can just use its vast resources to help you out. Until then just focus on making your country better, a bit of expansion and keeping the Christians at bay! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Titles
So, who like tha Caliph title?Saamwiil (talk) 21:59, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I like it. Also are we going to try push onwards with this plan a bit quicker? Lurk is building up the new Mongolian threat to us so we need to unify fairly soon. Are you & the Mamluks ready to unify soon? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

No. I feel comfortable with 10 years. I need to build up my army. Also note, Georgia might be a problem, they have shown intrest in Trebizond, which is in Anatolia... Saamwiil (talk) 20:46, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is the sort of time length I had in mind so that's fine, I was thinking like we were gonna be another 20 years or something, 10 is okay.

We're going to need to invade Georgia anyway, but the Georgian Kingdom collapsed into anarchy by 1466 and fragmented into three independent Kingdoms and five semi-independent principalities in OTL so they are quite weaker than us so they shall not be a problem. After all in OTL by the beginning of the 16th century, the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire subjugated the eastern and western regions of Georgia, respectively. Anyway just another war for the caliphate to win. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:45, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, should I start souring our relations with you? Saamwiil (talk) 21:10, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:41, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I was planning to wait for you all to get more unified like you wanted, but I was afraid that if I waited, the Chinese would integrate the Oirats faster and then be able to annex all of the central Asians. Godeng and Mamash won't extend their empire that far west until 1470 or later though, it will take them a while to subjugate the Golden Horde and the remains of the Temurids. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:28, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is enough for me; I just have to take as much Marinid and Zayyanid land as possible and marry a Marinid to a Hashemite if possible, as well as land said Hashemite in the throne. Fed (talk) 00:34, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking of making the Zayyanids and the Marinids pledging alliegence to the Caliphate. Both are allies. I think also we should postpone major warfare in Tunisia until '65, when I'll take a lead. I've been working on my military, so we could get more land. Saamwiil (talk) 00:46, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, one of yyou guys should convince the Tutonic order that the pope doesn't care for them anymore, and make them Muslim. I think it is logical, Brandenburg declared war on the Teutonic Knights and the Papal states didn't even show support. Saamwiil (talk) 21:16, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, the Mamluk Sultanete will have to give up 3 cities for the common good of the Calipate. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, each should be an independant state/capital. However this is for the future.

Also, Fed, Muhmmad(pbuh) didn't have any sons that live, he did however have 6 sons that died in infancy. So give me feed back! Saamwiil (talk) 22:37, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I never said he did... Anyways, I really doubt that the Teutonics would become Muslim. And yes, I'm willing to give up Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem. Fed (talk) 22:57, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I was meaning on the long term. Saamwiil (talk) 23:20, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I would replace "Sultan of Sultans" with "Khalifa and Mahdi of Dar al-Islam, Protector of the Holy Cities Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem" or somesuch since _______ of ________s is a Persian term, and Sultan is an Arabian one. Fed (talk) 02:46, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

We're assuming. One of the inicial 3 might be of Persian origins. And I already have Khalifa in its English form, "Calip of the Muslim World"Saamwiil (talk) 10:28, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

It's not that you're adding a Persian title, it's that you're adding a Persian form to an Arabic title, which is a bit anachronistic. Fed (talk) 02:43, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

I see. I was just following the lead of the Ottomans. Saamwiil (talk) 03:03, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

1965 and leta man
Are you planning a revolt lead by Aq Qoyunlu instead of a war? Saamwiil (talk) 23:23, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Government
So hey guys, I thought it was close enough so we should start being more precise about our government I have made the following two pages so that we can refine it:
 * Imperial Courte of Muslims
 * The Constitution

Discussion
Surely the constitution would mostly be just sharia law? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:30, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's the law. The "Constitution" is a mear treaty. Saamwiil (talk) 01:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

HRE expansion
Okay, we've got to start quickening up the unification; the HRE is going all Crusader on the whole world, and Russia is starting to attack the Mongol hordes all around. We'll be up in the middle of a Crusade and thus in a huge disadvantage in our huge expansion frenzy if all of Europe keeps moving around. Fed (talk) 01:53, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, do you want me to marry next year? Saamwiil (talk) 01:56, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Rather in two years' time, so that I can finish the civil war and take Cairo first, as well as a year of consolidation. Fed (talk) 02:05, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Our war with the Hafsids should end in 73.Saamwiil (talk) 02:15, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually in 70. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:23, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Unless there are any other problems, I could once again join in and declare war on the Hafsids, and unify the Maghreb once and for all. Fed (talk) 00:33, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, its fine. I'm able to take 24% of their territory but only take 3 so I can show friendship. Then they pledge alliedgence to the DME. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:38, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I have a question: why are all of you coming in to help the Crimeans of all people, but are letting the Ottomans die? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:11, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I decided to, Oman also did so bcause it's my vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:57, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well I was at war when the Ottoman war started but now I'm free to help them. I'll send some military aid their too, as my forces go to help the Crimeans. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:45, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

The ottoman Empire asked for alliances all muslim nations and for help against the treacherous and backstabbing Christians (Talk)dean

Hm. Can't this war. It would be better to loose this war for your nation to better integrate into the empire. Also, I'd like to take an offensive war, not a defensive one. Later, my military build up will really come in handy. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:41, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

But my question is why did you all decide to defend the Crimeans against the Europeans instead? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:55, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone, check the imperial courte for the latest issues in our new state. Always changing. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:01, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

We've begun
Shall do. Also have the Caliph agree to the demands of Shaybah's Emir. They're not much and its just a formality to make it seem more realistic having Shaybah pledge allegiance as now they have more of a reason to do so. Woo, its all coming together now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:47, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Also shall do. It would be nice/cool if we all posted as "DME province of XXXX", give it a more unified feel. I also volunteer to roleplay the Caliph these first five years, then Von, then Fed, then Dean. I propose this Caliph live 23 years, any objection? Saamwiil, the Humble 01:31, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well rather than DME isn't it "the Hashemite Caliphate province of XXXX"?

Also Dean seems to have left our group. Shall we just conquer the Ottoman's then? He seems quite against the idea of having to share power and being subordinate to the Caliph. We could try to convince him but if he still refuses to join back, then what? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:55, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if he refuses to join the Caliphate and the Mahdinate (we are still having a Mahdi, aren't we?) then we'll have to conquer the Turk by force.

BTW, have all player-controlled Muslim nations but the Ottomans joined the Caliphate? Fed (talk) 20:15, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

the Ottoman Empire will join the caliphate on 1 condition, the condition is that all conquest in Europe are ceded to the Ottoman Empire and that we start a holy war against a Christian nations for revenge. (DeanSims: Talk)

Are we still going to make a Mahdinate or will we stay with the Caliph? If we do, I imagine we'll need to start the events and the "beast" soon (as Alodia I imagine I have the responsibility of reporting a few of those) so that the Mahdi can rise as soon as Marwan dies off. Fed (talk) 22:43, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, we're having 3 caliphs first, this is the first of the three. He will die in about 20 years.

Oh, alright. So three caliphs and then the Mahdi? Fed (talk) 22:46, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Enough time to do Harb ul-Muqadisa, (Holy War)! Von, you should focus on India and Africa, Shaybah expands into Africa while Oman tries to rise Muslims in India convert them to Islam. I and Fed will focus on our military to hold back the Christians, and to spread Islam through Northern and Western Africa and Europe.

We have to have the Hafsids and Zayyanids take over Morocco and Granada first, and try to get Mali or Songhai to join us so we get a good hold in the territory (since they're NPC, whoever holds the Caliphate at the time is also who controls them, right?) While that happens, I believe we should take over Anatolian states as quickly as we can to prepare any attack against the Otts and the Balkans. Fed (talk) 00:00, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

So, I am not an expert on Islamic prophecy, dos the Gog/Magog part require the Dual Khanate to begin the war? If you want them to attack one of you (don't worry, it will happen in six years and they will lose), Aq Qoyonlu is going to be the ones to get attacked I'm afraid. If you don't need them to attack you, I won't. (if it wasn't obvious that the two conquerors, Mamash and Godeng, were supposed to be that part of the prophecy, I don't know what to say...)LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to use Shaybah to expand into the black areas of Arabia. Then a small bit of colonization in Africa but not much. Oman was going to increase its colonies along the East African seaboard and try to get some of those states to convert and join.

Also seeing that Our Brave Old World who controlled Bahmani said he was interested in the DME but now left before actually joining, I think we might be able to get Bahmani to join the DME fairly easy as if the player was still here they would have joined. Then we use Bahmani to expand from in India... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:36, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Made a Caliphate page. Of course, anyone's open to edit and add as they wish, as well as correct mistakes. Fed (talk) 00:56, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The arabic for Hasemite Caliphate is wrong, but I'll fix it.

Perhaps add a map of the Caliphate but with the regional boundaries for each of the provinces in it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Persians and other ethnicities
Hey Von, I was wondering if you could make an event which drives more Turks by mongol horde into Circassia and northern Aq Qoyunlu.

Also, the Muslim world as of now is operating like seperate factions working together. We need to slightly more unify it by encouraging immigration. This would also help bring down the risk of a Iranian revolt. -unsigned post by Saamwiil

Letting a bunch of Turks come charging into Iran and letting them steal the Iranians' land is only going to make the Iranians angrier at your government and make them want to revolt. Anything which could be seen as an outright attempt to annihilate their culture is going to cause them to revolt. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:54, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

What about the Syriacs/Copts/Syrian Turks? They've been moving into Mesopotamia for a while, so it wouldn't look as an attempt to do anything, and they're as civilised as Persians, so they wouldn't be afraid of barbarians around... Fed (talk) 02:58, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I also want Araabs to immigrate... As for the Turkes Persian land, they wouldn't. Generals would be rewarded with territory, soldiers would go to mostly Turkish districts, or become lower class in Persian majority areas. I plan for the same with Arabs. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:02, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Syriacs and whatnot aren't moving into Mesopotamia, that's where they've lived for literally thousands of years. They also are a tiny minority.

Any attempt to destroy the Iranian culture (and yes, spreading them all around the middle east and north Africa so they'll not be a majority in any area is an attempt at destruction) will be met with revolt, the Iranians historically resisted the numerous efforts to destroy their culture for the thousands of years they have existed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:12, September 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean the Syriacs that have been living everywhere, I meant those that have risen in Syria and spread to Mesopotamia. I know the Syriacs have been living there, look at Saint Muhammad for God's sake! xD Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also, historically, immigration failed to destroy the Iranian culture. The Arabs tried moving in when the Caliphate ruled over them for almost three centuries, the Turks tried it when they ruled over them for two and a half hundred years, the Mongols tried in their brief rule when they came in, Timur brought in armies of Turks and massacred entire Iranian cities and he still failed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:16, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't plan on destroying them. Only not make them as dominant. Maybe like 1/3 to each ethnic group, not specifically in any area. Over a long period of time. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:33, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really even want the Turkes to be dominant. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try and reduce the Iranian strong majority areas to a fraction of their OTL areas? Like maybe reduce them to Isfahan, Fars, and the areas to the east. They would revolt trying to take it all, but then you could force them into the smaller area and the rest of the Iranians would immigrate. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

How about we just give the Iranian's their own Province? The Qoyunlu will still rule most of Persia but this way we stop them from revolting. You can still control both nations and it gives us more allies too! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to have the Iranians be independent right now, you can wait about 100 years if you want to drag it out, so they would still be part of the Caliphate until the second half of the sixteenth century. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:57, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Russia
FYI, both Muscovy and Novgorod are behind you. Partially. Somewhat. You don't need to worry about us attacking you. Unless you attack us fiirst.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:14, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

No more wars under Marwan guys, besides the Mongols. I think Qoyunlu will be maxed out. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:07, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Could someone else just not start a war?

Also I think we really need a map of the Caliphate and its current provinces so we can visualize this stuff better (well so I can visualize it better), but I may end up making one later today if I finish my other work for the day.

Also I was thinking since we have each province in the algorithm, what if we split up the bigger provinces? Not only would that please local rulers and make us more democratic but we get more allies in the algorithm. I'm saying this because a war against the HRE is going to be very dependent on the amount of allies we got. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:54, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am fully aware. I was planning on dividing Qoyunlu in th south a small bit. And we could do Hejaz as an independant kingdom. It would be better administratively, smaller revolts, which works well for me. The algorithm also works. Saamwiil, the Humble 11:59, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

There's loopholes that Circassia could use for Islamic law on assimilation. Anyhow, as you guys might now, we have the right to annex Georgia, but haven't done so completely. They'll be joining if thyou guys are okay, and they are okay. Trebizond will become a vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 12:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

For example, Christians are bound to their laws not Islamic laws. This practice was practiced (repitition ;) ) by Muhammad (pbuh) himself, if I got history down right. The Jews betrayed him, and they were subject to their own law, not Islamic.

Well I agree and disagree with the whole genocide thing here, but either way looks like its going to happen. Anyway I'm completely fine with Georgia becoming part of the Caliphate, we won so they should be annexed by us. If he doesn't want to then he could always go and find another country to rule. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:24, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do believe that they should rule themselves internally and have the rights of Muslim provinces except for voting on the Imperial Court, since they're Christian and everything. Also, since the Khans annexed Crimea, that means that they're about to strike on either the Rus' or us pretty soon. Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. Perhaps this is just where we put all of the Christians who refuse to become Muslim? You know and keep the rest of the DME nearly all Muslim. Basically like using Georgia like a "Nazi-Ghetto" state but for the Christians. This way we don't have to kill them and they are put in one place to rule themselves and to not bother the Muslims. This might end up causing more revolts though if we concentrate them all in one place but hey, we can always crush a little revolt. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK, on the subject of splitting up big nations, I don't want you to break the DME nations into a ton of tiny provinces, each giving a +3 to the algorithm so you get a huge bonus. Splitting a few would be fine, but if the number starts getting ridiculous you'll have to go the way of the HRE with only the player ones contributing to wars. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah don't worry, I certainly wasn't planning on going into city state size states. It was more for national groups being able to rule themselves and to split up some of the bigger states like the Mamluk state into more manageable sized provinces. Shaybah and Oman shall not be getting split up for example. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:20, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Secret Novgorod Diplomacy to the DME
[Secret Novgorodian Diplomacy]Yes, Russia(or at least Novgorod) is getting annoyed and find the khanates to be an increasing neusance(and as I understand to the Islamic Caliphate aswell), so lets fight a common foe, just rip them apart, in say a combined war, we can take the north, while you take the south and we singn a non-agression agreement where we will not take sides in wars against each other unless you impede on the rights of Orthodox(NOT CATHOLIC) Christians, and we impede on rights of (insert denomination/all) muslims.(i.e. tolerate that specific faith and allow the members of said faith to be part of the governement and run things...). This agreement will go both ways. Message me or on the novgorod talk page if you are uncertain about something. You know what they say, an enemy of my enemy is my friend Let's end the mongol threat once and for all-Lx (leave me a message) 21:17, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I hope I'm setting a precedent people. When you roleplay the Caliph, don't abuse your power. When you mod other nations, keep what their gov't would actually say in mind. Ex. I voted against myslef (with Georgia). I'm handind it off to Von it 1776. Then in 1751 to Fed. In 1756 to Dean.

Also, someone open up the debate on having an alliance with Novogrod. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:22, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

AHEM Muscovy too. We left a similar message but (:P) you ignored us (maybe because We have the royal pronoun).

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:23, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "handind it off to Von it 1776?" I'm not sure if the caliphate will last until 1776... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:41, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

No, you'll be roleplaying the Caliph. He won't die... Saamwiil, the Humble 15:10, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I get that but I don't think the Caliphate (the nation not the leader) will last until 1776. I thought it was getting broken up after the Mahdi anyway? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:09, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'm so sorry! I meant to write 1476. You get to roleplay next 5 years. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:45, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'd like to declare war on the Mongols while our armies still get the 1.5 bonus. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

The 1.5 bonus for the Mongols is going to go away in 1478, so they will be their weakest after that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:26, September 30, 2012 (UTC

Also, any NPC nation. After the Mongols there should be a period of peace. I want to get the most out of it. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:43, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Your bonus will disappear in 1481, so the best year for you to attack would probably be 1480. Technically, 1479 would be good too, as you would have your bonus but the Khanate would lake theirs, but by 1480 a couple more Kazakh-Mongol territories would break away so the Khanate's population bonus would be much smaller, allowing you to win the war by more. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:25, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Von's reign as Caliph (1476-1481)
Hey I'm just posting here to discuss about what I'm going to do while I'm Caliph:
 * 1) I plan to build the Caliphate a huge navy from which we shall rule the seas. I'm doing this to increase maritime trade, fight our enemies and to allow us to expand overseas easer.
 * 2) I will post a map on how I think we should split up the Caliphate into its provinces. This will be posted later today & I appreciate you guys contributing to that. Once we have agreed on the new provincial borders and who controls which provinces, I'll implement this in game.
 * 3) I want us to intervene in Adal's war against Ethiopia. If we can show Adal that we'll keep them safe from Ethiopia, we will have good enough reasoning for them to join the Caliphate/ become our vassal.
 * 4) The creation of a new Caliphate province for the Nejd. I don't want Shaybah and Oman expanding to take over all of that black area. I also think the Nejd people will want some autonomy, so hence we give them a province.
 * 5) I want those small NPC states in OTL Eastern Turkey to become part of the Caliphate.
 * 6) Expansion into India via the Timurid state, and then getting the Delhi & Bahmani Sultanates to join our Caliphate. Seeing how Bahmani's player was interested in the plan, I think we can make our case for Bahmani becoming part of the Caliphate.
 * 7) War against the Dual Khanate in 1479/80!
 * 8) Support for Malacca to increase our presence in South East Asia
 * 9) Single Caliphate currency?

Thoughts? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:20, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

We sholud invade Moldovia. So then, if we attack Lithuania (later) and win, we can call the black sea "Caliph's Lake". It just sounded cool. And the only one in Anatolia is Independant, and they probably won't join diplomatically, Kara Qoyunlu. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:44, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I mean to say Mongol occupied Lithuania. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:18, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave the invasion of Europe for the next guy, I'm focusing on building up in the easy grounds so we are more prepared for the much harder European campaigns.

Also according to the map Ak/Kara Qoyunlu, Karamanid and Candar are still independent. I'm guessing these states are just going to have to be conquered by you or Dean? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:07, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

True, about Europe. About the Turkish states, they joined the Caliphate after the map was made. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:19, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, so just Kara Qoyunlu remains to be conquered. Anyway, I'll try to have that map of the provinces made by tomorrow or the day after; but its a pretty hectic time for me atm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:49, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Some Ideas for provinces, better administration and help againsts foreigners.: That's all that I think should be done at time period. Otherwise, there might be some administration deficiency. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hejaz
 * Syria-Palestine
 * Tunisia
 * Nejd

Thanks, those provinces where what I was thinking of too. I'm gonna stay up late now & do a quick first draft of the map.

Also thoughts on the idea of a single Caliphate currency? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:07, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The Dinarulislam, maybe? What to peg it to, if at all? Saamwiil, the Humble 00:11, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well it'd be the currency of a leading superpower so I don't think we'd need to peg it. Plus if its the gold dinar, then the gold itself would have plenty of worth to keep it afloat. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:22, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate Provincial map
Right I wanna split up some of the bigger provinces of the Caliphate. Here opposite is my first draft of how I'd split up the current provinces. I would also like to split up the Qoyunlu province, but I'm confused to how the ethnic groups are split up there and I think you Saamwiil would be better positioned to say how we should do this. All I know is a Persian state should be formed in the South. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:22, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Correct, we could probably split off Baghdad, and some Persian states in the south like Lur and some others I can't think if. I however think the boundaries are kinda stick like. Also, I think splitting Hafsids into 3 states is exessive, it'd create a vaccum of power. Try 2. I'm also thinking that Rumelia, due to its newly found inaccessibility to the Ottoman Empire should be split off. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I remember something about East & West Libya being culturally different on the news a while back. Also its stick borders because I rushed it. Feel free to amend. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I've made a new map based on your suggestions and the new addition of Bahmani and Koli. Please bare in mind that on this map, the Ottoman province is split up into its European and Anatolian areas. The Ottoman state in Anatolia is simply known as Ottoman and the European state is Rumelia. You can't really see this on the map due to the sea and the Byzantines being in the way. Qoyunlu is split up into 4 states: Iraq, Persia, East Qoyunlu and West Qoyunlu.

Also thinking we compile a list of all the provinces once the new boundaries have been decided upon, and list them all with the player in control of them. We could also divide up the Non player provinces between us as well by doing this. Anyway is this new map okay with you all? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:11, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mmm. I think the Qoyunlular would revolt by being split into four states. It would be more plausible to do over a long period of time, for right now, I think Iraq should be fine to split of, then maybe East Qoyunlu. Also, let's not divide it all in one year. Let's try 3 or something. The Caliphate would lose control if we do it too quickly. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:19, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

But we're just spreading Qoyunlular control over multiple provinces. Why would they revolt? Qoyunlu would actually get more power because they would have more provinces thus more say in referendums (more Qoyunlu provinces to vote in a bloc), the people would be better represented and more people enter offices of power (i.e. more locals gain regional power). The only people negatively effected are those current rulers of the provinces being split up, who loose their power as they have to share it. But they could always be convinced to accept it as they aren't as many of them.

Everything other than Qoyunlu okay though? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:36, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we should create a list for when these go into affect. I'll start it for you:
 * 1788-
 * 1789-
 * 1790-
 * 1791-

Well I was just going to have post in the next Caliph post that the Caliph meets with all of the regional leaders, and they have a large meeting, eventually deciding upon the new provincial borders. I post the final, labelled map of the new provinces along with it too. Us players then will assume control of all the provinces (splitting up the non-player provinces between us players). I don't see why provincial boundary changes should be so spread out. I really don't see how people would revolt over this, I can only see the people losing some of their power complaining, which is the minority as the everyday person will be treated the same, if not better. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:51, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the sense of being apart of a proud province. Leaders not wanting to let go of power. Et cetera. Also, I am adding to this years actions that I invade the new Cossack Heminate and the Khanate. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:54, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hhmmm, well which ones you thinking will break off into their own province first? I'm thinking Hejaz and Palestine. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:12, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hejaz. And you're completely fine with us warring with the Cossacks, and the Mongols this year? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:16, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm fine with it. Also don't add any more new territories to the Caliphate unless you conquer them via war or the player agrees. If your vassalizing a nation or puppet, then please check it by me that the rules are being followed. Your take-over of Crimea was a bit random and too easy. It is never that easy to take over that much territory. Because other than your takeover of Crimea, all our provinces have been taken over legitimately. We can't have the Caliphate being punished by a bad mod event or else our enemies will jump on board to take advantage of it! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:25, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Russian traitors!
People I have uncovered a plot by the Russians in which they seek to defeat us! Look see, Royal Guns posted it on Andr3w's talk page. You may need to check the page history of Guns & Andr3w's talk pages in case it has been deleted. Here's the convo anyway for those too lazy to check:


 * Andr3w: Just to be clear. What is your intention by attacking Poland? We cannot aid anyside(Bavaria), none the less I am nervous to see a nation so close to HRE borders fall. I will not commit aid either way, I just want to insure that there is no overt(or covert) plan against the HRE. Also, I am confused as to why you appear to be helping the Muslims. We are Christian, regardless of the Schism between the two denominations. Bavaria has a fairly large Orthodox population due to high immigration over the years, we do not harm them.


 * Royal Guns: HAHAH that's the genius part. The 'Muslim Alliance' is just to wait till their advantage ends, then we shall strkie with the HRE together, smashing open the Caliphate. There is only one true religion, and all that.


 * And no, we have no intentions and the HRE. Worry not. We'd die if we tried, anyway, so...

So yeah guys, don't trust the Russians to be neutral! I was wary at the Russian proposal first anyway but this just seals it! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I've known about Russian tretchery before, they said they aid Poland in a war against us. But never this direct. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:58, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

OOHHH... you metagamers. You cannot use that knowledge in game, or I shall accuse you of metagaming and get thoust post stricken.

Yeah, though, guilty.

The Royal Guns (talk) 01:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

What...I wanted to invade poland to get teh coastline and crimea(although before I found out it was a province). Novgorod only wanted to not get attacked by the Caliph. Novgorod had no idea what was going on... I was serious. Novgorod wants neutrality...the same can not be said about moscow. I have no way of knowing what Guns wants.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:14, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm fine with neutrality, but I never thought it was a good idea (or that plausible) for an alliance with you Russians. I was planning to oppose it but now I'll kick and scream against it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

hey, that was novgorod's proposal: we have a temporary alliance to defeat the Khanates(in an enemy of my enemy is my friend way because they are very much annoying us both and after that we have no reason to remain allies), and then agree not to attack each other unless you harm our denomination of christianity(orthodox) and discriminate at a governement level(we can not control the people obviously)or we harm your denomination of(or all) muslims and/or discriminate them. Orthodox will stand equal with denomination x of muslims in both nations(or at least on a governement level, you can have your people purpetrate hate crimes or have massive violence as long as you do show some effort to stop it like policing and "peacekeeping" and do not support the hate and discrimination unilateraly). -Lx (leave me a message) 16:15, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Leave Lx out of it. He had nothing to do with it (sorry). But, anyways... that plan was only if you launch an assault on Europe, more specifically Brandenburg or Bavaria- if not, you're safe as houses.But anyway, ti's really not plausible for that alliance to stand until the Khanates are wiped out.

Besides, before I came you guys were 'worrying about us'. In the sense, we're a threat, so you have to take out Muscovy and Novgorod to attack Europe.

You were wrong. You need only take Muscovy. But now that Bavaria and Brandenburg are in it, you'll have the entrie HRE smashing into your side if you tried. If you don't attack the HRE (or us) you're fine.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:35, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Rule Change
OK, I am really considering making the Caliphate like the HRE, with numerous member states but players only being able to control their player states. Its unfair to have a giant multinational union that can have like +30 on all algorithms because it has so many members. How long is this Caliphate going to last? Because if it is multiple decades, I'm probably going to try and make this rule change. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:51, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

How about an intermezzo stage. Only NPCs that can actually make big difference in a war count, ex. Circassia, Dulkadir and Ramazan are all adept after experiencing multiple wars, while Georgia is not is not, and Yemen probably can't reach a European conflict with any large number of troops. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:57, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Look at the size of our provinces compared to the HRE though; our nation is a huge superpower! We have more troops, people and money! We are also much more unified than the HRE too. Only a grand alliance of nations could stand up against us, otherwise it'd be implausible for an alliance of 10 smaller player states to get a higher nation aid score than 1 huge Caliphate. Remember not every province in the Caliphate is going to contribute to the war, as some are just too far away to send troops. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:03, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Granada
It appears as if Granada wishes to leave. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:32, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Also Von, can you do the algortihm for the Khanate? You can take my algorithm I used with the Cossacks and change it. I need to do some work. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:36, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

They seemed never to be part of it, according to Wilster, but they're attempting to annex the Marinids, and since I'm planning to expand the Caliphate into Africa, that'll be a problem. So I say leave them alone right now (if we don't deal with them, Castile and Aragon will do) but if they take too much of Morocco we invade. Fed (talk) 22:41, October 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Or, what about we invade Morocco right now and not risk anything? Fed (talk) 22:45, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Its quite late and I got an early start 2moz so I can't do the whole thing, also I am very busy 2moz, probably won't get a chance to come on here until Friday.

As for Morocco, we could invade Morocco before they do or at the same time. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:49, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Cossacks
So when are we releasing the Cossacks from under direct control? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:28, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Also, are we going to take back Crimea or the Zayyanids? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:32, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

I believe we should retake Crimea by war as soon as we can and leave the Hetmanate as a puppet. Algiers can wait although we should take it before 1500. Fed (talk) 23:37, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have a plan. How about a semi-canal going through suez. Not like how we know it today, but to have a lot of buildings their and de-desertisation. It would help bring Oman, Yemen, East Yemen, and Shaybah into European conflicts. And we conquered the Hetmanate, we can do anything with the territory, I was wondering when would it be considered stable to put under a regional gov't, since right now, the Caliph andministres it directly. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:45, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Nah I don't think that will be plausible. Supplies can always just be sent instead. Leave Oman, Shaybah, the Yemens and Bahmani & co to deal with the wars in the east and you guys focus on Europe. If the war is big enough, then its perfectly plausible for supplies from the eastern provinces to be sent, so if we need it, we can but don't rely on them too much because it usually won't happen. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:29, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

HoThe Provincial border changes I just did
Hey, basically I went ahead and did the province split up because that way we can't have provinces declaring independence for nationalistic reasons and feelings of misrepresentation. I'll write up a list of all the provinces later today and put the name of the player of who controls the province next to it. If your province is splitting up then you control all of the new provinces it has split up into, meaning that no body is loosing any territory but just getting more provinces to control. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:01, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Okay the province list is complete. All the provinces are listed (going west to east in order) and have the player who control's them name next to it. I have done a similar list for vassals and colonies too. I also did a map of the Caliphate as it stands in 1482 and labelled it so everything is crystal clear. Basically just post as your provinces now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:11, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'd rename East Yemen to, Libya into since it's the only region of Libya it controls and Bahmani into. Looks good otherwise. Fed (talk) 01:20, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

They make much more sense, I'll change them. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:39, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

The Cossacks need to be added. Saamwiil, the Humble 18:20, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, when do you think Cossacks will be stable for regional administration? Saamwiil, the Humble 18:41, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm not sure. Also what we going to call the new Cossack province? Calling it Cossack province doesn't sound right... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:01, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, how about Slavia? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:46, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm declaring war on Crimea next year. Cossack territory is isolated, and that isn't a good thing. Also does the name Slavia work as a province name? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:50, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Slavia is Latin-sounding, you should make it Arabic-sounding, like Al-Slava or something. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:00, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Al-Slava is a bit better. Anyway I'm making the new province map on Friday so please try to come up for some more names. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:36, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ah! No more provinces. The Caliph is running out of children with Hassan's sister to put on Qoyunlular thrones. I'm think about Al-Slaviyye or Al-Slaveit. The first I added the iyye (city, or place) ending, then the second, eit which I think is a diminutive, so it would be like little Slava, in the case we expand more. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:25, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

No new provinces just updating the current map with the 2 new provinces (this cossack one & Nejd) Might also have beaten Sind by then so maybe 3. I think I'll go with Al-Slaveit in case of future expansion in the region like you say. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm probably over-anylising all of this, but do you feel Yank has a secret hatred against us? Saamwiil, the Humble 03:01, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind, he just said quite open;y that he doesn't like the Caliphate. Which is why I'm assuming he is pounding on every possibility to destroy it. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:42, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Well that would be biased mod behaviour then, call him out on it if he does it any more. Abusing your mod events to better your nation or attack other nations is against the rules. Mods are meant to be as neutral as possible.

I will say though, everyone who is not in the Caliphate is annoyed at how good we are. We're following the rules and there is nothing they can do about it. I do notice a lot of hostility towards us. Hence they pull us up on every minor rule violation, most of these stemming from their own ignorance about what we've been doing. Jealousy is an ugly thing. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:25, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Less jealousy, and more fear. You happen to be stronger than every other Bloc and country in the world.

The Royal Guns (talk) 18:58, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Need to add Crimea and Cossack to map. I'm giving them there own government as soon as I become Caliph (next turn). Saamwiil, the Humble 19:32, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Constitution
People, can you please read the constitution, again, and if you haven't read it. We are mentioning stuff in game that has already been created. Such as a court, and Mecca and Medina being controlled by the Caliph. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Muslim_Treaty_(Principia_Moderni_II_Map_Game)

Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Should Jerusalem be added to the map as a province similar to how Mecca & Medina have been then? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:11, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I guess so. My interpretation was that the Caliph ruled the cities them selves, no land around it, but yeah. You can add it. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:40, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

War With Byzantium
So, here are the Provinces I think should be leading (combination of proximity and might): Any objections? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:45, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ramazan
 * West Qoyunlu
 * Rumelia
 * Anatolia

I think just Anatolia and Rumelia. Ramazan is quite small and far away to lead a war like this (perhaps Ramazan lead invasion of Cyprus). West Qoyunlu is also a bit far away to lead this too. If we use 4 nations then we're just going to see a lot of raging over the algorithm once again, being biased towards large alliances. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hm. Neither Ramazan or or West Qoyunlu are that far away. But I'll take Ramazan off. But can you do the research for Rumelia and Anatolia, see how many turns they've been expanding. Also, for a backbone country, I think we should leave West Qoyunlu in. It's the most experienced in war with Christians through-out the Caliphate. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:04, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Military expansion for Rumelia and Anatolia? Ehh, I wanna go bed, its 1:24 am & I gotta be up in the morning you know. Apologises but just immense tiredness kicking in now. Anyway goodnight now. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:24, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

The aftermath of the HRE war
Okay, it seems we have lost this war. I'm also killing off the Caliph Marwan III and having the successor negotiate for peace. I'll post a map soon of how much territory we should loose from this war, as well as some provincial border changes caused by our territory losses/ the new Caliph's plan to prepare the Caliphate to absolutely destroy the Europeans in the next war.

So what should the new Caliph be called then guys? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:08, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Okay here is the map of how the territory will change following the outcome of the war. Note we have gained the Venetian & Papal state's small outposts in Anatolia because I think if this was a real war we'd go for those first and win fairly easy. This map is basically how I think the territory held during this war looks now. I also think this would cause large scale rebellions in non-Muslim majority areas like Wallachia, so I purpose we let a rebellion take place in Wallachia as the Christians try to get Wallachia independent. This would of course be from using a war algorithm to decide if we suppress the rebellion or not. Plus we can test out the new algorithm too.

So yeah is this map okay with you guys? And ideas for names of the new provinces too if you can. Plus what to call the new Caliph? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:00, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliph should be Muhammad ibn Marwan, his eldest son, ruler of West Qoyunlu. I'm planning on him having a son named Muhammad and his son having 2 sons named Muhammad who vie for Caliph. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:22, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't think a Caliph should be named Muhammad. Sounds a bit sacrilegous to me, heh. Maybe an Umayyad name, Ibrahim or Yazid, or if we want a bit of Sunni-Shi'a conflict Hasan or Ali? Fed (talk) 02:52, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nonononono. LOol. It's the opposite. Muslims are encouraged to be named after the prophets. Also, this sets us up to have the Mahdi, and, since the Mahdi is going to be fake, they can always say his brother was supposed to be Mahdi! Saamwiil, the Humble 02:55, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwiil's right, Muhammad is the most common first name in the world because so many Muslims are named Muhammad. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:58, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

sadly my provinces will be crushed :( with Wallachai probably being absorbed. I hate how biased the mods are agaisnt us. (DeanSims: Talk) 11:23, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries we'll get them back yet! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:57, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think we might have actually win. :D Maybe, if nothing changes. Also, how many pixels do our opponents have? Saamwiil, the Humble 17:32, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

'''Most importantly, do you guys agree with the map? Also with Wallachia rebelling and war breaking out with it as we try to stop the rebels. I'll post our proposal for the war's result to the main game's talk page if you do.'''
 * ...I get the Hetmanate and Bulgaria, but you are granting them everything but the desertic parts of Tunisia if you do that Fed (talk) 23:28, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay I updated the map. Better? I also realized Naples never had any land in Crimea so I split their bit between Russia & Venice. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:38, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Also what relation will this new Caliph be to the last one? I don't really know how Caliph succession works. I'm thinking of close advisor & cousin to Marwan III, general to the Caliphate armies in Hejaz, Yazid IV. So is Yazid IV okay with you all? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:57, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, as it would make it easier, the council would have to agree 2/3 on a successor. I propose his eldest son, Muhammad. And in order not to have an interregnum, could we kill him after the council decides out of game. The process should take less than 1 month in game. I also believe we've won, as abovementioned. But as stands, we can gain less than 1% of territory. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:36, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, .49% to be specific. We won, I think we can take Constantinople. I mean atleast, Muscow by itself is 12, 000 pix, we might want to take their coast, if possible. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:09, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I've updated the map to show our victory. Basically we loose some of Rumelia province but we gain all of the HRE's enclaves in Crimea and Anatolia and Tunisia. My reasoning is that we'd loose our weakest territories but we'd gain their weak areas. Thoughts on the new updated end of war map? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:24, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Constantinople. One fo the resons for the war. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:26, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Also, from Russia alone, we should gain atleast the Muscovian coast, maybe some of the Polish one. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:38, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

We didn't win by that much you know, I think asking for that stuff as well is too much. Anyway join the discussion on the talk page, I could do with some more people to argue our case & persuade them to come on board. You might be able to get that stuff as well if you convince the others, I of course don't oppose it, I just think they won't agree. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:52, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agenda
So, I'm putting in this pot the things we want to do in 20 years. Anyone can add to this, I'm adding mine, they are not in order:
 * Expand influence in Arabia (in progress)
 * Become more centralised, as in being able to relay information more quickly, be able to have troops around very quickly and put down revolts if they occur. This would require massive road building, and their'd be no in game benifit, but it would help the empire.
 * Conquer the Timurids
 * Conquer the last Qoyunlu
 * Conquer Algeria
 * Conquer Morocco
 * Conquer Nogai Horde
 * Conquer Moldova

Well Algeria and Morocco are two separate nations, so I split that up into 2 points. But I'm currently using Nejd and Shaybah provinces to expand into Arabia to defeat the Bedouin. I have ordered it in the way I'd approach it too. Which one is the Nogai horde BTW? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:09, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Nogai no longer exist. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:27, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tunisia
The list of provinces says I am controller of the provinces of Tunisia and Tripolitania. While I get Tripolitania, it was Saam who had Tunisia into the Caliphate, so shouldn't it belong to it? Fed (talk) 01:53, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

And Tirpolitani technically. but you should have it. I already have loads of provinces to post for, and with Eastward Expansion. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:06, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

So I think the entries for new Caliph should be closed by 1501, and we kill Marwan in 1503. Also, should we aid Bengal. I think they should join the Caliphate, but I don't know what you guys think. If we did help them, could probably tip the balances well. It would be nice if Imp could join the Caliphate. More PC. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:02, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I've been speaking with the Bengal player a lot, he is pro-caliphate but wants to be indepdent for a bit longer. Once our borders meet, then it shalln't be long till he joins us too. As for Imp joining us, I'm not so certain, he seems to want India to be Hindu in most of his map games. But then again, you never know for sure <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:30, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well it's called Hindustan, after all. The Royal Guns (talk) 18:53, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Russian Proposal
Ok, this war has been seriously damaging to both sides, so hear me out.

Russia won't intervene in the next war if you take no land from Brandenburg or Bavaria, or any of their vassals. Other than that, you'll get a huge amount of italy and good control over the Black Sea, except for the Russian Portions. (Also, of course, you don't attack Russia, that's kind of a given).

I'll have to run this by Lx, but I see no reason why he shouldn't agree. Also, there's no point in wondering if we'll backstab you, because if you agree (or not) Russia will spend the next 15 years building up Infrastructure, which is +3 but only for defensive wars (ie, if you attack us we'll have a 45 point bonus that we didn't have here, according to the new rules). So if we backstab you, then we'll lose, but if you backstab us, then you'll (probably) lose.

Basically, this is a win-win! What's not to like?

The Royal Guns (talk) 18:53, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

The fact that I don't trust you after your last back-stabbing. Also how is it win-win? I understand we don't have to fight as much in wars, but is that what you guys get as well?

Regardless if all it takes is not attacking Brandenburg or Bavaria then I'm okay with it for the time being, since we won't border them for a while yet. If you've looked at our agenda above, you should know another war with the HRE isn't on the cards for some time. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:59, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you guys got attacked, also, If you look at the Original Russia plan it encorporates the Cossacks and Chrimea, and the Oriats, so lets just say that its going to be first come first served for those territories, OK? And also, I would eventualy want to purchase the Cossacks, them being Slavic and orthodox and all that...and the chrimean Peninsula...but that one is realy optional...and by this I am proposing not adding terms to anything...and I say eventualy as in eventualy.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:11, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Lx, I'm pretty sure that we'll get those territories anyway when the Mahdi is exposed as a fraud. But, till then, you (Von) can count on us not to attack you.

It's win win because you don't fight as much (though either way you win), and this WE don't get harmed.

Also, as an optional thing, I'd prefer if you didn't rip the HRE asunder. BUt I'm not sure you could do that, and I won't blame you for doing it if you can.

Right, I know about the agenda. Still, in a month, I don't want to be regreting not making this deal.

When DO you guys collapse, anyway, out of curiosity? I thought it was supposed to be 1500.

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:58, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

We collapse so time from now. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:02, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Once the Mahdi comes to power (should happen in a decade or two) then we have about 20-30 years of his rule, with the Muslim world conquering all, with blind devotion as they think the time of judgement is early upon the world, incensed that the prophecies are coming true. However this day of judgement never happens, and then Mahdi is proved to be a fraud. The huge Caliphate now looses its central authority and collapses into several warring states after a long, bloody civil war. This would also pave the way for more liberal Islam and less religious fundamentalism as we see in the modern middle east, as a whole generation's faith in Islam has just been galvanized by the Mahdi and then that has just been betrayed by his deception. A lot of questions will be asked about the reliability of the faith and then in my nation at least, something like the European Christian reformation (but for the Islamic faith) will happen, and my nation will be much less religious and more secular, than its modern day OTL counterparts. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:43, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, cool. Just, while you go on your Muslim conquers all spree, try not to conquer us.

The Royal Guns (talk) 16:12, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's needless to say that both parties will only uphold this proposal if it is convenient... So why make it? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:55, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

I do believe we should make it; as long as the Russians uphold it, it give us a little breathing room and takes some breathing room from the Western Europeans, as well as it will increase the Empire's prestige among Christians. Fed (talk) 19:02, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwiil
Okay guys. I really really need to be focusing on my scholastic punishments (work) for the next some weeks. I advise that someone post for me, otherwise the Qoyunlu go into civil dissray. It may be just about a month, give or take. I'd like for Von to post, but if you can't that is fine. For Decisions in the council: Georgia will always oppose wars, and won't really agree to much, especially concerning religion (don't want to make their large Christian minority angry...). If Muhammad gets elected, I want him to live till about 70, that'll build the people's trust in the Caliphs (they'll think he's lucky). Well, Bye Guys, For Now. Saamwiil, the Humble 05:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I can post for your provinces. I take it then this includes posting as Caliph as well when its your turn to be Caliph. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:26, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I might check up on weekends, but can't rely on that. Saamwiil, the Humble 16:35, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Colonisation
Since colonisation of Africa is almost around for us (I have like seven years before I can start colonising), I'd like to make a quick check over how and what are we going to colonise.
 * I believe the area we should colonise first is the mouth of the, since a) it is close to the Cape of Good Hope, and thus a good stragetic location, and b) it is crazy rich in natural resources. It's also close to the Zulu and to the Swahili, so we can continue diplomacy, and it is also a good departing point for Patagonia and further beyond.

I'm going to start a post about how the Caliph begins a second Grand Expedition, this time to circumnavigate Africa and then try to reach the Americas, but since I didn't know it was my time as the Caliph I'd like it if the next player would continue it for me as a more minor post. Fed (talk) 18:50, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

I just sent off another grand expedition this turn to circumnavigate Africa. Check my post for Oman in 1503. I'll amend my post to say that Oman was planning for it rather than starting it, and I'll let you do this expedition.

Otherwise I agree with your plans for colonization. We might want to vassalize one or two of the East African city states too, and make them more Muslim. This also allows us to maintain better alliances with the east African city which are currently Muslim like the Sultanate of Zanzibar. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:02, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Random Check-up: Now that we control Constantinople, we should use very large taxes for Christians to use it. This will bring the Caliphate a lot of money, and limit access to the East, so we may make more money by having a monopoly! Saamwiil, the Humble 10:49, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Could do, but I can see something like that causing another war. Its Dean's provinces so let him decide if he wants to use this as a way for raising money for his provincial governments. But other than raising the tension with the Christians and Russians, I don't see many other reasons why not to. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:21, October 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * So who controls Caliph Muhammad from 1505-1510? Fed (talk) 02:32, November 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * See the schedule on the DME page but 1506-1510 it should be DeanSims. Guess I'll message him. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 05:21, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Timurids
The Timurids no longer exist. Instead there are the Dimuratis, who are a peaceful and stable Islamic nation. I've never understood why you are so eager to war with your fellow followers of Islam. Yank 03:34, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Fine then, *Dimurat. And we do it to unify Islam; it's not like sharing a religion=immediate love with the rest of the nations. What is it with your vendetta against the Caliphate, anyways? Fed (talk) 03:59, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

So not Timurids but Dimurats? Okay I'll go and change all my references to the Timurids to Dimurats. Wish someone told me sooner lol.

And like Fed said, we want to expand but not like every state is going to join us peacefully. I mean if we had taken them over peacefully then you'd just complain we'd did it peacefully and then say we should of used a war! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:43, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

It's just that I created Dimurat myself, and I have a soft spot in my heart for them. Yank 02:27, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

Future Plans for the Caliphate
So this is more or less the plans I have for the Caliph.

Muhammad ibn Marwan will live some 10-15 years more, under which I hope most of the Muslim remaints in the fringes (West African states, Funj, Swahilia, et cetera) can be annexed into the Caliphate. I do believe we should have all of the Muslim world under our grasp before Muhammad's death. Also, since Marwan and his advisors were from the generation in which the Great Holy War occurred, I do believe a lot of military and infrastructural improvement should happen under Muhammad.

After Muhammad, his successor will take control, and while his reign will be somewhat long (15-20 years), it won't be very prosperous. The Sunni-Shi'ite-Sufi tensions that some oh-so-annoying players have called on so much will rise, and the westernised provinces (read: Syria, Egypt to a level and Rumelia) will experience a crazy growth of Christianity. Economy will go slightly down and the people will flee to the colonies, New Mecca and the colony I hope Oman (Von) will establish soon. Through this time, the rumours of the Mahdi will start rising; several problems occur that forsee the coming of the Mahdi, and early (Marwanite and Muhammadan) "predictions" considered nothing back then will be recalled.

In this period of relative chaos, the Mahdi will rise in a central province and will be able to take the Caliphate, establishing its "golden age" and the mega-expansion.

So what do y'all think? Fed (talk) 03:25, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

I like it! I plan to help Bengal take over Hindustan and then India will be nearly all Muslim too. Also I have already had Oman establish another colony in the Comoros. I'm thinking maybe a war against the Zulu as well? We take some of their Kingdom and their Madagascar colony. But before all of that, I guess we should work on taking back Algeria. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:54, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Fed (talk) 02:58, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hm. I'm less radical in my views of change right now. Namely saying that Muhammad doesn't have a child, which I thought was the plan, to have his son named Muhammad and his sons are Muhammad. One of them would be high in the military order, but dispised by his father, so that later he becomes the Mahdi after his papa dies, with controversy. Right now, I do believe that Muhammad does not has children... He does however have 2 Orthodox wives from Al-Slaveit, and may have one any day. It would be unwise to have a son rule before 20 years of age, seeing what happened to the Ottoman Empire. So I think Muhammad should die in 25 years, to allow a son, who then is succeeded by a son who is 15 at his accession, hence the unsuccessful period. He rules for 30 years, so that the Mahdi is well versed in military. This is a compromise between my plan and Fed's plan, leaning slightly to Feds side. (Mine = 80 years, Fed = 35). Saamwiil, the Humble 15:08, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think a young leader who proves himself to be a military genius then claims to be the Mahdi seems to go nicely. Sort of like how Alexander the great was. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:32, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Russian Proposal Amendment
Russia would like to add Ethiopia to the incredibly short and restrained list of nations we would prefer you not to destory (note, destroy. Attack, but don't wipe them out. Unlike Bavaria and Brandenburg, where the treaty stands that you do not attack.). We would say hindustan too, but we have not estblished contact. And they are not Christian. ANYHOO... The Royal Guns (talk) 00:22, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Never mind the above actually. Scratch.

Did you agree to the treaty, by the way? Because Saam said something about it being de facto, as in we'll only uphold this until one side has the advantage. The Royal Guns (talk) 01:25, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just no, Russia has no ties to Ethiopia. That's just meta-gaming, Russia's knowledge of this war would be extremely limited. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:14, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Etheopia is the only orthodox nation in africa. That is ties enough for us to ask you not to destroy a nation with our branch of christianity as a dominant religion.-Lx (leave me a message) 03:39, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

No its not the same branch, Ethiopia Orthodox is a entirely different church to Russian orthodox, Ethiopia follows the not the  who the Russians follow (until you make the  separate from Constantinople which happened in OTL in 1589 that is). You are not the same branch of Orthodox Christianity, its like the Catholics helping the hieratic Protestants. Not to mention you've not even made contact with Ethiopia. Russia has no ties to Ethiopia. Besides Ethiopia is no longer attacking Adal so we won't attack them. If they do attack Adal again, we will support our fellow Muslim state, who follows the same religion and we are allied with. This is just you looking for a chance to invade the Caliphate. While we are hear making requests, I'll arrange to your request we don't invade Ethiopia if you promise to never invade any other Muslim nations (e.g. all the Khanates in Central Asia). Its the same grounds & fair is fair right? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:49, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, 'Ethiopian Orthodoxy = Greek Orthodoxy' is a lie caused by Paradox trying to make coding easier. Oriental Orthodoxy split from Rome in 451, while Eastern Orthodoxy split from it in like 1080. There's a HUGE difference between both churches. Fed (talk) 03:55, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You get the feeling Russia & the HRE are just allying with Ethiopia and Hindustan just to hamper the Caliphate's efforts, regardless of any historical accuracy of 1500s geopolitics and communications? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 04:03, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, since Imp tried to get Japan and the Zulu into the war at one point, forming an alliance thousands of kilometres apart and composed of Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Copts, Zulu Pagans, Shinto and Hindu, something completely irrealistic at the time, yes, I do think they're trying to destroy the Caliphate without thinking of plausibility. Fed (talk) 04:19, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope I can count on you to try and combat this implausible behaviour which is inevitably going to happen because they are blinded with rage. Its going to be a big argument in this 2nd Bengal-Hindustan war. We'll win it and then Russia & the HRE will just happen to declare war on us at the same time. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:51, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd like to let you know that Bavaria will not be in this war if it happens. I don't like implausogasms and Bavaria is suffering through a religous civil war.Andr3w777 (talk) 19:55, November 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, A) Russia is obviously going to work against the massive hostile power near us, but B) Russia is currently not going to intervene in this war, unless it's required to protect our allies, or your death is certain anyway (and in that case just to make sure Venice doesn't get the Black Sea). Even though our NA pact has expired. Because it will probably be renewed for another 20 years soon anyway. The Royal Guns (talk) 23:22, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Kappelian Resistance Proposal
So Kappeliansim, a branch of Chritianity that hates the Catholic Church, is increasingly underfire in Europe. Can Bavaria have permission to send Kappelianist refugees into the Caliphate(western more Christianized provences)? Also we would like an assurance that if the HRE falls, that Bavaria will not be targetted. We dont want war and we treat our small Muslim population fairly well.Andr3w777 (talk) 00:35, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

You're covered if the HRE falls, as part of our treaty with the Caliphate.

Assuming, of course, they follow it. But if not, at least, you'll have Russia behind you. The Royal Guns (talk) 00:37, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I could accept some Kappelians in both Syria and New Mecca if you'd like, BTW, and I do believe that Bavaria can perfectly be left alone if the HRE falls. Fed (talk) 02:58, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Are you not just better off keeping them in Bavaria and starting a rebellion against the Catholic church? You can get out of the HRE and stop being dragged into all their unnecessary wars. If you don't help the nations attacking us or don't attack us, then we'll happily leave you be. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:24, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

im toying with lettin gthe rebels win, you needn't worry.Andr3w777 (talk) 19:56, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Long Term renewal and renegotiation of the NA pact with Russia
Here's my proposal: The Royal Guns (talk) 00:30, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Neither Russia nor the Caliphate shall engage in hostile actions aginst each other, including military aid but not including supplies to eneimies of either state.
 * 2) The Caliphate shall not attack the state of Brandenburg (and Bavaria, though I believe they are already covered).
 * 3) Russia shall not attack the state of (insert-state-here).
 * 4) Neither side will persecute the members of the other's faith (in our case, Eastern Orthodox Christians, in your case... Sunnis? Shias? Sufis? Presumably all three, seeing as you control all their lands).
 * 5) This treaty shall come up for renewal and renegotiation in 1550.

I'd also like to point out that Russia would NOT have declared war on you if the HRE-Ethiopia-Hindustan thing came. Well, at least not unless you were sure to collapse, and even then, as I said, just to make sure we get the Black Sea. So... we never backstabbed you.

Actually, what happened the first 'backstabbing'? we never agreed to a N/A pact, so our participation in the Great Holy War can hardly be counted as a 'backstabbing'....

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:35, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

But you did. You sent supplies to Hindustan. It may not be a full on war but that is because you lacked any real reason to do your own war. Anyway that is a minor detail and still does little to change my mind that I don't trust you one bit, especially after reading through your messages with Imp, Scraw, Lx and co. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:40, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Notice anything there?

WHILE I may have *ahem* 'incited' certain anti Caliphial feelings among them, you may notice that Russia would not, and DID not even on those SECRET messages, contemplate entering the war, save for the circumstances above said.

In any case, our original peace treaty stipulated that military aid was allowed- the current one allows for only supplies.

What's more, you sent aid to the Nogai in our war against them.

And I don't NEED a reason. Not to mention, over the last few years, all the sides are stronger, but we have POLAND in addition now, which we didn't have then. SO we'd win this war. And what reason do we need for war? You're muslim, we're christian, that's enough, let's beat the hell out of each other with swords.

Take a dekko at Lx's talkpage and LOOK AT MY REASONING THERE. IT SAYS. It says clearly that we will not repeat not enter into war with you!

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:57, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do have to agree with Guns; while I'm not sure that that would be enough of a cassus belli, nor that Poland would cause your immediate victory (we also have India and east Persia now, mate) but I still wouldn't like troops also streaming southwards into the Caucasus while we're fighting in the Maghreb, Balkania and India. It most likely won't kill us, but it's better not to take any risks, aye? Fed (talk) 01:41, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well just Europe now, India is ours; however they may strike while we fight in the Maghreb though. TBH Russia is more of a threat then Europe in my opinion. The Byzantine player dare not bother after his last disastrous attempt at war against us and the HRE is in turmoil. However Venice, Naples and Castile remain threats; albeit not as much as Russian states. Let it be known I don't trust those Russian dogs one bit! Never have, never will. Opportunists is all they are, with a blatant disregard for plausibility and honour!
 * Hmmmph, its just about being able to take them on, one at a time: all at once and our enemies beat us, but we can take on the individual factions easily. I see this as a way to allow us to take on our enemies individually but it also provides the Russians with the opportunity of us relaxing our defences as we focus on the others, and then bamm! they stab us in our backs while we fight the other Europeans and African nations. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:47, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, well, tell you what. For the next 15 years, if you do accept this, I focus solely on expansion into Central Asia.
 * If you do not.... Well, then, I don't think we need dwell on that. But lets just say, Byzantine failed in that last disaster because noone supported them. And if you fail this N/A pact, then they will.
 * And as for us being opportunists, without plausibility and honor... You're talking about combining the Sufis, Shias, and Sunnis, plausible, my foot.
 * The Royal Guns (talk) 20:15, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I will not allow any of my states to vote yes on this if it passes to the court. If you do not attack the Khanates, I'm fine, otherwise I don't accept this. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:01, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Umm... right, ok, if so, you can vote aginst this. I don't care. We're closer to the Khanates than you. And we have more right to them. We WILL attack them, except for those you currently control. The Royal Guns (talk) 22:45, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * No we are much closer to the Khanates than you in most aspects: geographically, religiously, diplomatically and we are much more friendly with them then you. You have no right to them at all. Likewise we are allied with Khanate of Mangystau so if you invade them, then we'll be forced to attack you to defend our ally. They are nearly all Muslim in that region too, so we are heavily inclined to defend them from an invading infidel nation like Russia. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:01, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * ... Fine, so I won't attack that one, which one is it?
 * Also, if you're more friendly, that's kind of a reason NOT to take them.
 * Although either way I see your argument.
 * Ok, then, fine. NA pact is over. The Royal Guns (talk) 23:14, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes we are not going to take the Khanates over, but we don't want you taking them over and ruining the status quo. ~Von.
 * In my view it never really started. I never really agreed anyways (or disagreed), so that's all fine with me. I still can't trust you after seeing two-faced posts before. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:19, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * look, I only aided Hindustan mainly because Crimea aided the nogai. you can see that in my in-game post. There may be distrust but you can see that without Russia, you will have a much better time taking europe, but then afain, if Russia falls, europe will surely follow. We will expand east, and conquer any nation standing in our way. I realy want this agreement to last...because it would be of mutual intrest as Russia was created for the reason of not crumbling appart.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:25, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * We had 1 nation send supplies against Nogai, you had 8 nations sending aid to Hindustan: so stop saying it like its an eye for an eye when its really an eye for 8 eyes. ~Von
 * What? I only meant for novgood to send supplies, as it is the only plausible ne to send aid, as we have 1. an outpost in south africa, and 2. have the only reliable fleets of Bogatyrs that can hold many supplies on one ship that is part of our South atlantic trade flotilla that is used for trade[of arms] with Hundustan.-Lx (leave me a message) 15:54, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * That isn't how you guys did it in the algorithm see. If you want to have better relations with us in the future I think you need to do something about your loose canon of a partner. You really need to real him in, for Christ sakes he think it's plausible for Russia to control all of central Asia by 1550! I'm going to take that as you saying that the other Russian states (except Novgorod) should be removed from the algorithm then. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:31, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Reel in loose cannon of a partner? First off, the 20 year plan doesn't involve the complete control of Central Asia, as you put it- just parts of it, that were controlled by Russia OTL, and perhaps a little lower. Also, we sent just supplies to Hindustan, excuse me. And finally, I specifically stated in the FIRST DAMN TREATY that it allowed for military aid to be sent- and NEITHER of us broke that side. in fact, we never even sent military aid against you, and on ONE occasion, supplies. Also, I don't think he is saying that- I thik he thought that we sent aid- WHICH WE DID NOT. However, your post IMPLIED THAT. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:24, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * They've made their opinion clear. It's fine. Let's just wait a couple of months. THEN, I think, we'll have more fun renegotiationg. Only not with words, but with swords (that should be a movie line, I don't think it will happen, but it was just too awesome not to say.)
 * The Royal Guns (talk) 23:51, November 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Royal guns, if you wish to take a violent stance on things and continue dichotomy between extreme-hate and lovingly peaceful, we can also do the same. 24.253.221.71 00:12, November 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * We will niot declare war on you, anyway, and hope that you will not reciprocate. And as I said, I don't think that the 'not words but swords' lines will come into play. The Royal Guns (talk) 20:24, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

The Great Caliphate/Bavaria Non Agression Treaty of 1526
The Lord-Regent of the Kingdom of Greater Bavaria's Proposal,

1. Bavaria and her holdings will not Be molested in any event.

2. If war should occur between the HRE and DME, Bavaria will not be involved

3. Bavaria will treat all Muslims in her territories with honor and respect, the DME must therefor lend the same courtesy.

4. The Caliphate may not war on the states of Milan, and Genoa.

5. This treaty is up for renewal in 1536 (10 years)

I have a better reputation with the DME than most of the HRE, if I tell you I will not attack, I won't. A man is nothing without his word.
Any other wishes will be taken into account.



Brandenburgish Treaty of Peace
Brandenburg offers to remain at peace with the Caliphate for ten years in exchange for the Caliphate's zero-tolerance rate of Kappelism (cause I know y'all have some Catholics and Orthodoxers) and the Brandenburgish acceptance of Muslims living in Brandenburg. Luxembourg, Aragon, Courland and other lands ruled by Wilhelm II are involved in this. (If you ask me, it's a pretty good offer. You got the HRE agreeing not to fight with you, since the Chancellor is from Brandenburg, as well as having acccepting that y'all can live in our nations, etc etc, and all you have to do is not recognize Kappelists as people.) Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:18, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well you have the aspect that the Caliphate Islamic law that we must treat people of other religions nicely. This is the sort of thing that the Caliphate would not care about, but would say they agree & then not do anything about it. We have Orthodox & coptic Christians yes, and a tiny amount of Catholics (they hold no sway in our government), so the whole idea of just tolerating Christianity's different sects is already being practised by us. To then activity persecute a branch of Christianity which we don't care about seems daft. The people would give these minority groups a hard time, but making it government policy to do so, doesn't seem like something we'd do. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:44, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

OK then, so wht might we have to do to get the non-agression signed? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 23:20, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

You don't attack any Muslim states and we don't attack any Catholic states? This is as well as our own nations not attacking one another. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:47, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

Europa Stigma
I know we are not allies, but if you want to take on the HRE nows your chance, the Empire has declared war on me over Kappelist doctrine. I ask you to use this to your advantage and wipe out the currupt and intolerable HRE!Andr3w777 (talk) 17:01, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure we could declare war on them right now, but if it's deemed plausible I'd be more than happy to send Syrio-Egyptian-Palestinian aid to you, or inccrease tariffs to the Brademburgish. Fed (talk) 18:57, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I'll accept that. I'm still a little pissed off, I made a mistake thinking I could trust him. Now I'm paying for my foolishness, if I lose I will probably switch to Hungary. I will not make an alliance like that again. Of course I would be compelled to treat Muslims in my new lands well I suppose.Andr3w777 (talk) 19:07, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

It's your own fault. It's obvious that secession = war. If you jsut became Kappelist but remained in the HRE, the whole nation would be forced to tolerate. But alas, you chose the wrong path to freedom. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:29, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seccession=War? . Fed (talk) 19:34, November 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * "A successful independence referendum may or may not result in independence, depending on whether relevant political factors outside of the territory recognize the results." And,.
 * Hm. It does seem like a ripe time we should take advantage of. The HRE would be fighting 3 wars, a war against Kappelist in their own respective countries, a war against Bavarian Kappelist and a war again the DME. Also, I believe Russia is Bavaria's ally, hence the HRE would have to fight a war on another front. Despite the expenses, I think this is a good time to go ahead and declare war on the HRE, if indeed they do keep attacking Bavaria.? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:11, November 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Russia would declare war on us, but that's why we have lots of states allied to them. Brandenburg, etc. And then we could pull in Scandinavia if we needed to, and Brandenburg can quickly pull into Poland before the Russians can get into it. And Russia would not join leagues with you to attack us, so there. Pointless. Besides, we are already negotiating an end to the war. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 21:18, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would like to express that I am not suggesting anything, this is just my take. Lx has control of my nation until saturday afternoon.As an unbiased observer, it would be a good idea. There are too many wars for them to handle (though as a european nation very close to you, i wouldnt reccomend it!). If Bavaria is taken out which is what Brandenburg wants, they will just consolidate Germany under them since Austria is gone. I know that Brandenburg will take that opportunity, now that they will be the last of the big three(austria,bavaria,brandenburg). This was eventually gonna happen, civil war is inevitable for them -- Kappelians and Catholics will be killing each other while the Muslims invade. A lot of states including mine, are trying to resist conversion but in the end its up to the masses. We can kill as many people as we want but they are free to be who they want in the end. I believe that if you help the Kappelians break free from the Catholics, you'll form a lasting bond of friendship that can be helpful when they (kappelian states) stabilize. On an unrelated note, Scandinavia offers the caliphate a 20 year non agression pact similar to that of Russia's. We have good relations with Syria, as we were big importers of their wheat for a few years. AP

Actually, no. You see, Russia (I'm back!) will intervene on Bavaria's side- UNLESS the Caliphate invades. We have our priorities right, thank you, and you're the biggest threat here.? The Royal Guns (talk) 14:52, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

How long is the Caliphate going to last?
Is the Caliphate going to last much longer?? They sort of arose due to a series of lucky events, it seems like they shouldn't last for a very long time... LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:40, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

They'll last 1 more Caliph. The Mahdiate will be 1 Mahdi.? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:44, November 23, 2012 (UTC)

1 Caliph could be anything from 1 year to 35.? ? The Caliphate's recent conquest of the Dimurats and the Hindustanis will be straining their resources to the edge, I doubt they can last more than 20 years at their current size. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:41, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

During the reign of the next Caliph a lot of problems are going to arise, e.g. the Timurids invading, religious tensions reaching boiling point and such. We will come close to collapse because the next Caliph will be a poor ruler over his 15-20 year reign. Check a small civil war will probably break out, then the Mahdi will come and solve all the problems and spread his religious message to the lands of the infidels. But yes I am getting quite inpatient waiting for the Mahdi myself, I just wanna woop some ass already. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:01, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Let this Caliph live for 6 more years so that Muhammad ibn Muhmmad can ascend to the throne at 9. Also, a personality trait for the Mahdi: he should be kinda cruel on dissent, sometimes doesn't follow religious prescriptions, religious extremist. Considering he's going to be a fake, I think these traits will work, what do you think?? Saamwiil, the Humble 16:48, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well if the prophecies come true then it won't matter as he'll be seen as a divine man who is closer to God than the ordinary people of the DME. Plus he'll control the army so he'll be able to deal with any dissent. Perhaps he start's his own cult / making sure everyone follows his Islamic ideals? Basically I just want the Muslims of the world to be so sure that he is the real Mahdi that they'll do anything because they believe it is God's direct will. Regardless the people will be thankful he got rid of the corrupt regent government of Caliph Muhammad ibn Muhmmad.

Could you maybe make a family tree for our DME page Saamwiil so we can show how the Caliph's of the Hashemetie Caliphate are all related to another too please? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:35, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

I've made a page for Marwan. But yeah. I'll try.? Saamwiil, the Humble 22:18, November 24, 2012 (UTC)

Cheers, its just I'm quite a visual thinker so if I can't visualize things I tend to struggle with remembering, thinking & what not. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:09, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

We are attacking the Zayanids and the Moroccans next year?? Saamwiil, the Humble 02:45, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Fed is planning to attack Algeria soon I believe, so when he does, just send him some aid. I meanwhile will be focusing on the last bits of Arabia and dividing India. So it might be next year, maybe the year after. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:54, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ait. I think we should start taxing Christians who want to trade with Asians. We just finished a war, so it would give a gigantic boost to the economy, and slightly slow down the one in Europe which is what the Caliphate want. We have basically total control over the trade if we wish to enforce it.We control the Turkish straits and have South African colonies.? Saamwiil, the Humble 03:37, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

The South African colonies are not going to be that prosperous yet, however we could certainly charge the Christians for using the Bosporus straights. Or heck just cut them off entirely if they annoy us enough. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:59, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

All we have to do is bring some of the Indian fleet, which is already gigantic, and put them around the African colonies.? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:07, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you on about? We'd simply block access to the Black Sea, what does the African colonies got to do about that? Having more ships there is not going to make it more prosperous, more economic development & expansion would do that. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:43, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Um. Please don't.? The Royal Guns (talk) 00:17, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

We should not let the Caliphate collapse, we should at least make a ? post collapse map, or have a peaceful division, otherwise the Christains willl just attack and divide us.? (DeanSims: Talk) 12:29, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliphate is getting very over stretched, I am doubtful they will be able to hold India for more than 20 years, if they take Algeria or Morocco they would become even more overstretched. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:54, November 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * ...Which is why the Caliphate will last 15 years, the Mahdinate like 20 and then we'll collapse. Fed (talk) 00:12, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

Family tree
Marwan III|Muhammad ibn Marwan| Muhammad ibn Muhammad





Muhammad bin Muhamman bin Muhammad (Mahdi) ? ? ? ? ? Muhammad bin Muhammad bin Muhammad II (executed)

It came out a small bit different on the screen than when editing, but this should give you the idea.? Saamwiil, the Humble 02:51, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

So they're just sons and fathers I see. Who are Muhammad bin Muhammad bin Muhammad I and II though? How to they relate to the lineage of the current line? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:03, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Muhammad I(III) and Muhammad II(IV) are going to be brothers, sons of the next Caliph. Muhammad I is going to be hated by his father, but still achieves to get high military rank, hence becoming the next Caliph. There will be a 2 year interregnum were Muhammad I wins.? Saamwiil, the Humble 03:34, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Erm, just thinking that is going to take too long. Muhammad ibn Muhammad is only 9 years old in 1537, so he'll have to be 16 or something to have his twin sons, then they'll have to get old enough to rule. So no, we shall not be doing that, that plan is too long.

The way I see it (this is based on Fed's plan BTW), is that Muhammad ibn Muhammad the child Caliph is Caliph for 10 years, during which because he is too young, various advisers and regents rule instead of him. They get quite corrupt and the Caliphate comes quick to collapse, but the Mahdi rises up to do away with the corrupt, tyranny of the greedy Caliph's regency. After a short civil war / coup, the Mahdi becomes the new Caliph and he leads the Caliphate into its golden Mahdi age. How do you see it exactly BTW Fed?

Alternatively, we could have the Caliph upon reaching adulthood, kill all of the corrupt officials who manipulated him, and he sets about re-establishing the authority of his rule. He is successful and it all goes to his head, and he thinks he is the Mahdi & sets about convincing everyone else. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 03:51, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well if this next Caliph has a baby super young (!0), it is possible for it all to fit in the time frame. But, I like your last alternative the second most.? Saamwiil, the Humble 03:59, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

How on earth can we fit in the timeline of 15 years? Muhammad ibn Muhammad has the twin brothers at age 13, and then we have to wait until they are at least 30 to be a high military rank, and that is really stretching my imagination. No lets just go with my second alternative. Its much quicker. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:35, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Post Caliphate Plans
I suggest we divide in peace and form two or three new Caliphates with an overarching alliance. And why must we collapse, we could simply stop expanding our territories. Or if we must split, lets do it in peace, otherwise the Christians will come ina nd gobble us up. Also we need a post division map of who gets what.? (DeanSims: Talk) 12:32, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well there will be plenty of these small successor states acting as buffers against the Christians and they'll have to conquer each one so they shall not gobble them all up straight away. But war will happen as we break up, albeit mostly simulated war with no algorithms as we control both sides.

For example you could have the Ottoman royal family re-declare the Ottoman empire and you from their main power base in Anatolia seek to take over as much land as possible to build up your mighty empire. However my ideas are focused on Arabia, Asia and India so I shan't be able to help you out due to geographical constraints. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:38, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, so just for reference, I'll have Shimun ibn Yazid (remember Yazid IV?) becomes extremely popular and when the Mahdi dies he is declared Sultan in Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Nubia, Yemen and Iraq, as well as Egypt's colonies on New Mecca and the Spice Isles. Hoping to establish European aid in the Civil War, he declares himself a pro-Western king, and the areas (who have a large Christian proportions and have noticed the prosperity gained in Syria) don't complain. A Levantine Kingdom, drifting closer to the West by the decade, is established. It'll end up as a secular, extremely panreligious state. Fed (talk) 14:18, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking of making my lands into a confederation of states, where the Sultan's power is basically solving disputes between local warlords. Also, after break-up am I getting Afghanistan/ Balochistan and the Indian states? I think also that Iraq would go to Von.

But I am willing to have an alliance with anyone, Dean, I'll probably give you Crimea if you so wish, but if you try giving it away to Christianity, the western states of the confederacy will be forced to declare war on you. Saamwiil, the Humble 16:04, December 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine that parts of the Indian states would go to "Dravidia"/Hindustan and Bengal. But I do imagine you'd keep all of Persia and our surviving provinces eastwards, unless Von has a plan for them.
 * I'd really like to have Iraq because my empire will be a trading one and it'd be nice to have more than one way to bring in stuff from India, so Von, I'm willing to trade you the Hadramaut for Iraq. :P
 * Al-Slaveit is most likely falling to the Russian Federation, as well as most likely a Black Sea route, but not all of the Crimea. Fed (talk) 17:27, December 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Feel free to take Iraq, but I have a plan for India involving a short lived major Sultanate controlling it. I also want a free Persian state too. I plan for the Persian gulf to become full of small trading states which eventually get larger. But I don't want you guys getting these new empires for yourselves straight away, I plan for a lot of successor states to be formed. You're welcome to conquer these states but remember the Caliphate has just descended into anarchy so it isn't going to be united straight away. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:16, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I doubt that the Russian Federation will be able to do much after the Mahdiate falls, that is if they have an  armed conflict with the Mahdi. I'm also planning on splitting the Persian states into about 20 little Sheikhdoms who are all nominally under a Sultan.  Saamwiil, the Humble 01:59, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'll be doing something similar with Oman-Shaybah. A sort of UAE type structure. It'll turn into a major trading and colonial power eventually. But I generally have plans for a few small successor states being made. E.g. a Persian trading state, Shaybah tries to become the dominant Arabian power but fails, a large Indian Sultanate (like the Mogul empire), many small trading states in the Persian gulf, and a few others. I'll post a map of my ideas for the post-Caliphate world sometime next week. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:16, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

This is my plan, I am flexible though and open to suggestions. These number approximately 50, if not exactly. Saamwiil, the Humble 14:57, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

The next Caliph, civil war & the start of the Mahdi's reign!
Okay so this next Caliph is meant to die in 1537 and his 9 year old son Muhammad ibn Muhammad will become the next Caliph. So who exactly is our Mahdi going to be? We've had a few ideas circling around about who exactly it is going to be but we haven't all decided for definte. So who is it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:34, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Muhammad III would become Mahdi at the age of adulthood (21?)  Saamwiil, the Humble 16:06, December 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well he'd become the proper Caliph at 21 and wouldn't need the regents but they aren't going to go away easily. A short civil war to show of Muhammad III's military prowess I think would be a good idea, as well as re-uniting faith in the Caliph rather than the regional warlords and corruption of the regency era. Perhaps at age 18, Muhammad starts getting annoyed with the regent's corruption so the send him off to a military academy to keep him out of the way, but eventually he leaves the academy to march to Mecca to overthrow the corrupt regency. Then after 3 or 4 years of good rule, he has a religious epiphany after he sees some signs that he is the Mahdi. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:16, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

He has to be at the academy for 2 years, I'd say. So he would then be 20. So a 1 year civil war would put him at 21. After reigning for 3-4 years he is 24-25. 25 sounds more magical *tongue and cheek face*. So this is the plan? Saamwiil, the Humble 04:41, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

18-21 in the academy and once he leaves the accademy aged 21 he claims the throne back and tries to get rid of the regents. They however then start a coup/civil war. This lasts 4 years after which all the troubles in the Caliphate have ended and the Caliph thinking he's the greatest, declares that he is the Mahdi because he won so many battles and some of the Mahdi signs appeared. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:10, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mahdiate
The Mahdiate is upon us. *drum roll* Everyone ready for this phase? I am assuming our major focus will be on the Christian in Europe? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:45, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Deccan, then the invading Timurids. Then Europe. Maybe other stuff as we go along but those first two are happening first before he declares himself Mahdi - they give him the confidence in his own ability for him to become so megalomaniac. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:56, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Also, since I don't have the time or energy to give each single little trading Sultanate a name and a dynasty, the naming system I will use for them will be such: The main part of the country name will be a number of a the language I have designated. Priority West then North. Hence, according to my map, the big Sultanate in the middle of Persia would be called Khamsastan. Von, if you wish to control some of the trade in the little Persian states, you can have some of your states marry a few. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:04, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Former Crimean will use Crem- prefix; Turk
 * West Qoyunlu will use Qo- prefrix; Turk
 * East Qoyunlu will use Qo- prefix; Farsi
 * Persia will use -stan suffix; Arabic
 * Balochistan will use -stan suffix; Farsi
 * Afghanistan will use af- prefix; Farsi

Ethiopia just declared war on Adal, that means war with us... Saamwiil, the Humble 05:43, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, we can just sent Adal aid this war and if it isn't enough then Hijaz and Yemen can led a full war effort. This is likely to be the first of many wars... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:08, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

While our armies are down in Ethiopia, do you believe it would be prudent to also get Zulu, and maybe the Swahili states? We could control the traid to India a lot better, that's for sure. But we might over-overextend. Opinions. Saamwiil, the Humble 15:18, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Well I (and Palestine) would be more than glad to annex the Zulu as well ;)

But no really, I'm planning to actually declare war on Ethiopia if the invasion of the Adalese continues for longer. Fed (talk) 15:24, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

We son't really have an option, Adal is our declared ally, and Muslim brothers, we would look really bad if we didn't come to their aid. Saamwiil, the Humble 16:27, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

I would like a war against Ethiopia, mainly because I'm tired of him not doing algorithms, implausible colonisation and then complaining that we're implausible.

I say the Swahili states would be over-extending. Maybe launch an attack against the Zulu from our colony there but I say we should focus more on Europe. We can spread Islam via trade with the Swahili and our Muslim allies the Sultanate of Zanzibar who are the superpower of the region. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:25, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

So I sent half our troops to Ethiopia. I was doing the algorithm and, even at half power, the Caliphate is beast. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:57, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

So, since Viva changed to the Swahili, would I control Ethiopia? Fed (talk) 17:59, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess.

So, we are splitting up the Timurids into 4 peaces, NE, SE, NW, SW, I' guessing. Mangyastu is split North and South while Aqmola emainst the same. Saamwiil, the Humble 18:34, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

I say we divide them something like the map (the names in brackets are the predominant language there) Fed (talk) 18:59, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Where's the map? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:16, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Double file, sorry Fed (talk) 22:46, December 27, 2012 (UTC)