Talk:Principia Moderni/Archive 2

Map


Wasn't Tibet divided up between Hanthawaddy and China? Also, I can't believe I forgot about two Khanates! CrimsonAssassin 20:19, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Claimed, but not fully controlled. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:45, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

New map uploaded 5 August. Contact me if you want to edit it, as it would be very difficult without the original source image. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:45, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

Whats happened to the Itsaygahan client kingdoms. And what about the invasion of Yucatan? Surely the Charter Port Princes should be demarcated in Cuba, under the jurisdiction of Naples. Mumby 15:54, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

War
Okay, so it appears we have our first real conflict between players. Japan vs. Brandenburg. So I have a rough outline of how we determine the outcome. It will be by points. The proportion of points will determine who keeps what territory. For example, Portugal and Nepal go to war (random example). Portugal has 5 points and Nepal has 40. Thus, it is Nepal's victory. Since Portugal got only 5/45 total points, that means it will lose 35/45 (the total number of points minus twice that much) of its territory. Note that if someone invades another country and loses, the defenders do not get to annex the attackers' territory unless it is nearby. If a country is victorious over a colony, it needs to take over 50% of that country's colony, which may be compounded over multiple wars as long as the wars occur within a hundred years. The formula makes more sense once you see how it works. Points will be awarded as follows. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:12, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground (capital is on higher ground than fought-over territory by at least 300m): 2

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Multiply

 * times 2/3 (country has vassals or is in personal union with another country)
 * times 1.5 (country is in civil disarray)

Discussion
Everyone okay with the rules? They should apply until we get into global wars. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:31, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I strongly suggest in wars where the main nation targets a nearby colony of another far away nation that the main nation gets some sort of bonus. Anyone agree? Scandinator 12:59, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

We've had this issue before during the Brandenburg-Japan War. What we decided was that a) faraway countries get lower points, b) if a country causes a colony to lose 50% of its land, the colony is fully annexed. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 16:39, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe we should factor in inactivity??? e.g every five years inactive since the war is -1 point...153.107.33.161 00:33, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Wars?
I was just wondering... If this is going to be a feasible alternative history, shouldn't their be more conflicts? We are all (me included) trying to avoid even minor wars like it is the nuclear age. We have only had (correct me if I'm wrong ) two conflicts which have gone to an algorithm in the entire game! This is far less than would be expected in an actual history!Zagoria 14:23, July 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, Inca is under Chinese occupation (when they took it over, there was no War Algorithm, so I had to use colonization rules. Taking forever to annex though!) -CrimsonAssassin
 * There is a lot of territory not occupied by the chinese, is completely feasible for some user to control the Inca.However, you should estabilish a new colony to expand quicker in Inca territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:23, July 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I attempted to make the Russo-Mughal phony war flame up, but to no avail. I think there will be some conflicts in the future as there certainly seems to be 2 seperate "alliance blocs" and nothing good can ever come from that. I've got some things up my sleeve in terms of radically changing my particular political spectrum, which in turn of course changes my particular alliance structure, but that is still quite a few years away. I also attempted to make the Iberian conflict flare up, but it ended pretty quickly since Emperor Fuiroz was assassinated. I've tried twice to start up a war, but both times the other sides backed down. Eh, hopefully it will happen sooner or later. JonAllenMichael 15:53, July 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I attempted to make the Russo-Mughal phony war flame up, but to no avail. I think there will be some conflicts in the future as there certainly seems to be 2 seperate "alliance blocs" and nothing good can ever come from that. I've got some things up my sleeve in terms of radically changing my particular political spectrum, which in turn of course changes my particular alliance structure, but that is still quite a few years away. I also attempted to make the Iberian conflict flare up, but it ended pretty quickly since Emperor Fuiroz was assassinated. I've tried twice to start up a war, but both times the other sides backed down. Eh, hopefully it will happen sooner or later. JonAllenMichael 15:53, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

I agree but I can't think of a feasible way to carry it out. I don't expect any world wars, it's way too early to do so. Around this time, to my knowledge, wars are mostly limited to a few feuds and the general roar of war in Europe. I may plan to break up the power bloc in Southeast Asia sometime soon but my country is not ready. Also, people should not overlook civil wars as a realistic event. So I'll leave this to the Europeans to create small minor conflicts by invading each other. Part of the problem is our power blocs are too big. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:05, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

I guess a lot of it is my fault, for uniting Germany. Most of the wars of the time came from Germany and Italy. Maybe we should invite any new players to play as a minor Italian nation. Italy seems kind of neglected at this point.Zagoria 15:51, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the wars happened in Germany not just because it's Germany, but around this time they were mostly wars of religion, and Germany was just the melting pot of European religion. Since most nations have Freedom of Religion (which by the way, is a pretty foreign concept pretty much globally at the time) then they also have no real reason to fight religious wars. If a state doesn't endorse a religion, then why bother invading nation "x" because they are persecuting a particular faith? The 1600's was also characterized by Dynastic and Secessionist wars, which were basically just power plays by a major nation to alter the balance of power in their favor by either marrying into and forming a dynastic link with another nation, or by becoming pretenders to a throne. (See the War of Spanish Succession and the War of Austrian Succession.) Honestly, we have done exactly what the powers in Europe and Asia did at the time, we've established a balance of power, and we are maintaining the status quo. What would be interesting is if there was a royal crisis that perhaps divided Europe or Asia and destroyed the balance of power in either of those continents... I couldn't see a World War happening here as Europeans really didn't care what happened in Asia and visa versa at this time. Just a thought. JonAllenMichael 19:33, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

Im pretty sure many countries are avoiding most wars because of the complex net of alliances that are probably more complicated than the ones that started WWI! If one country attacks another half the world is either neutral because of mutual alliances with both combattants or of allies of allies of either side and if they support one ally they are attacking another one that is helping the other side.(btw this is Lx, i cant seem to log on here)85.237.50.123 07:09, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Very true as well. I dunno, maybe having mod created political disasters as well as the enviromental disasters could perhaps change the landscape a little? JonAllenMichael 15:43, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Flag Creation
So I'm attempting to expand the details of my nation, and I was wanting to be able to create some flags instead of reusing and rehashing old flags from the OTL. Is there a "how to" or anything like that for how to go about creating your own flag and coat of arms?? JonAllenMichael 01:22, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

1 2. There are many places online to find resources on making a good flag, but sometimes you just have to improvise. For coats of arms, a good idea to study Heraldry. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:08, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a good place that I can go to that will also teach me how to actually make the flags also, ie Photoshop?? JonAllenMichael 16:04, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Jon's Rant on Rifles
So yeah, I know I'm not a mod, but there is one thing that bugs the heck out of me. I really hope I don't create enemies but... it bugs me that entire armies have been using Rifles since the 1550's. Look, I know that rifles have been around since then, but just because a technology has been around since a certain time period it does NOT mean that in an ATL countries can magically adopt it. First off, the technique to actually produce a rifle during this time period takes MUCH longer than producing a musket. Since everything is handcrafted, it makes it close to impossible to actually equip an entire army of a nation with just a rifle until the Industrial Revolution.

Even if you were able to explain in our ATL how you could manufacture such a complex firing system for an entire army, you would have to take into fact that the quality of gunpowder and metallurgy actually destroyed most rifles after around 50 shots. The residue of the gunpowder in 16th and 17th century rifles would foul the rifle and make it useless. Muskets didn't have to worry about this problem since they didn't have any grooves. Also, the fact that a pointed projectile hasn't been invented (that was invented in the early 18th century) means that ball ammo is absolutely going to destroy the rifling of your weapons.

So let's assume you have found a way to increase industrial production time, created a sufficient metallurgical process, found the secrets to modern black powder, and created a shaped round. Now that your army is completely equipped with rifles, I would honestly still go to war with you and I could probably guarantee that I would win. My army still uses matchlock muskets, so we have a firing rate of about 1 shot per minute, but if I adopt flintlock, I can fire on average about 2 a minute. If you are using a matchlock rifle, it would take about 3 minutes to load a round, and a flintlock rifle would take about 2. It takes this long not only because you have to ram the bullet down a rifled barrel, but also because you have to take extra steps to ensure you aren't fouling your gun. That means I'm sending twice as much lead down the field as you. Your argument then would be "Well, my guns are much more accurate!!" which you would be absolutely correct about, for about the first volley. We are firing 17th century black powder. You know in the movies how the smoke just whips away off the battlefield? Yeah that's because they are using about a hundred actors. Imagine tens of thousands of soldiers, firing their guns for hours on a battlefield. I promise you, you would lose any advantage of accuracy after about a minute, at which point more lead flying down the battlefield becomes all the more important. Why do you think it took so long for armies to adopt the rifle anyways? JonAllenMichael 16:20, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Archive
This talk page is getting pretty big. I think we should archive it.

-CrimsonAssassin

You're right, I was waiting until it reached 100,000 and it has. Do me a favor and create the page Talk:Principia Moderni/Archive 1 and copy-paste everything above "Wars?" into the article but don't delete it from this article. I will do that myself. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:33, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I already did that.-Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:10, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

who messed up the page?

An unregistered user I think. CrimsonAssassin 01:52, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

doesnt matter i fixed itLxCaucassus 02:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm #3 (China/Vietnam/Commonwealth/Sweden vs Hanthawaddy/Russia)
Somebody can do it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'll do China/Hanthawaddy and Sweden/Hanthawaddy. Would you be okay with following suit and doing Russia/China and Vietnam/Hanthawaddy? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 16:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:11, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Hanthawaddy

 * close to the location of war: 3
 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * Hanthawaddy/Russia/Kazakhstan: 9
 * military development: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is religious: 7
 * 1061/336*pi = 992.032682% >3 pts
 * 18:17:32 > 1*8*1*7*3*2=336
 * Editcount: 1061


 * participating in the war: 10
 * country does not rule said area: 0

Total points: 3+1+9+5+0+7+3+10=38 pts

China

 * far from location of the war: 2
 * China/Vietnam/Commonwealth/Sweden: 12
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * 790/160*pi=1551.16137% >6 pts
 * 21:12:58 > 2*1*1*2*5*8=160
 * Editcount: 790


 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

2+12+2+1+10+6+10-5=38 pts

Result
Stalemate: Hanthawaddy is expelled from China, but borders revert to status quo ante bellum, unless additional concessions are made via treaty.

Discussion
kazachstan also was fighting china, does this count as a participant(it was a vassal state) in the algorithm or does it count as the amin country or as part points?(i know they pulled out but for some time they were fighting china they only fully pulled out in 1610 just before the algorithm so I think it should still count, i dont want to be unfair, this is curiosity, if it counts as full nation, then it sould be equal points and it should be status quo ante bellum or unti possedis treaty)

Yeah they count, sorry I missed that. For the sake of simplicity let's just apply it to this war and not the other two. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:56, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam/Hanthawaddy War
Territory in question: OTL Thailand and Laos.

Hanthawaddy

 * close to location of war: 3
 * Russia/Hanthawaddy: 6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5
 * 1067/24*pi=13966.9973% >9 pts
 * 1*6*1*2*1*2=24
 * Editcount: 1067

3+6+2+5+0+10+10-5+9=40

Vietnam

 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * Sweden/China/Commonwealth/Vietnam: 12
 * country has developed military: 0
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is political: 5
 * 3596/54*pi=20920.679967%>7 pts
 * 23:10:45 > 2*3*1*4*5=54
 * Editcount: 3596


 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

3+12+0+0+5+7+10-5=32

No Full Unity: 32 times 2/3 = 21.3333333

Result
40/61.3333333=0.652173913

2(Ans-0.5)=0.304347826

Decisive Mon victory. Hanthawaddy may annex 9,390 px (469,532 sq km) of Vietnamese territory from ante bellum, or arrange additional concessions via treaty. The Kingdom of Singburi is abolished and may be partitioned or fully annexed by Hanthawaddy or Vietnam.

Hanthawaddy

 * other side of the world: 1
 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * Russia/Hanthawaddy: 6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * 1067/24*pi=13966.9973% >9 pts
 * 16:12:12 > 1*6*1*2*1*2=24
 * Editcount: 1067

1+1+6+2+5+0+10+10+10+9 = 54 pts

Sweden

 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * Sweden/China/Commonwealth/Vietnam: 12
 * country has developed military: 1
 * expansion: -3
 * motive is political: 5
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * 90/57*pi = 496.0409% > 4 pts
 * 00:35:32 > 3*5*3*2 = 90
 * Editcount: 57

3+12+1-3+5+10-5+4=27 pts

Result
54/81=0.66666

0.6666-0.5=0.1666666

0.166666*2 = 0.333333

Clear Mon victory. Hanthawaddy may annex 9,895 px (494,766 sq km) of Swedish territory from the point of ante bellum as part of its Toeh Ngoa Nyoing administration, or make additional concessions via treaty.

Can I be Naples?
Can I join the game as Naples? - Wijata Mateusz 14:23 (UTC), August 4, 2011

Of course, they say, "the more the merrier."

BTW Sweden would like an alliance if you join :)

Thanks for message !!! - Wijata Mateusz 14:35 (UTC), August 4, 2011

I changed decision, i wouldn't join the game, because i have no time - Wijata Mateusz 20:52 (UTC), August 24, 2011

Expansion NEEDS to pick up.
It's 1620, when colonialism really picked up. Yet, most territories are tiny circles and the expansion is really slow. I think, at least during the mid to late 1600s, that there should be an increase in expansion. There was a huge landgrab at around this time. -CrimsonAssassin

I like that idea...I agreeLxCaucassus 02:46, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree too. Expansion is way too slow. Also everyone on this map game is also scared shitless by the alliance webs that even involve inactive players. I suggest if a player is inactive and someone declares war on them then noone can support the inactive player. Scandinator 00:17, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

How about we temporarily double expansion rates for the duration of the period?

Yank 01:11, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. but maybe until 1700 or before, if the colonies start declaring independence in 1776--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea!!! Maybe double till the start of the 19th century and then triple until the start of the 1920s (scramble for Africa).Scandinator 03:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now this is exaggerating.all Africa would be conquered in less than 50 years like that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly what happened!!!! Scandinator 14:18, August 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * You can't call something "implausible" when it actually happened. Yank 17:17, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Africa was not colonized by 1850. Again, hardly anyone was colonizing by 1600, and only Spain and Portugal had more than like 3 colonies. Right now, people should focus on creating coastlines, which was the focus of the time period. Don't worry on inland expansion, that comes later. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:13, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Inactivity Vote of '11
As a mod, I would like to propose a vote to open up (make their nations available for entering users to officially claim) the nations of all inactive (has not posted for at least a week unnanounced or a month of announced inactivity) users effective September 1st. This does not mean that alliances are void, it simply means another user can control the nation.

-CrimsonAssassin

Observations
Been gone a little while. Just a few things i thought I would note:

1) No way submarines are going to be used widespread or for anything remotely military until at least the 1620s. Guys, don't jump the gun on technology.

2) Expansion is not going to pick up in the 1600s, because this is still the time when countries are basically colonizing coastlines for trading purposes, not creating entire new societies. I will consider raising expansion in the 1700s, and then in the 1850s, but for now, be patient. The thirteen colonies are still barely taking form, and we perceive it as slow because it is not a fast process like conquering territory, but rather it is mainly an economic deal.

3) As for inactive users, I'm going to wait until mid-September. It's OK that users are taking a break for summer.

4) Sweden may invade Doitsuchihou but they have to use the algorithm.

5) There is no "most/best xxxx in the world" in this game. In fact don't even use the word "world" at all. Think of it as a taboo until at least the 1800s. Even "New World" and "Old World" are highly cautioned.

6) NIE expansion is too fast. In addition to there being a plague there right now, the NIE has neither the resources or military power to expand across the pampas like that. There needs to be an incubation period of military and economic upgrades. For starters, the NIE doesn't even have a port.

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:14, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm #4 (Sweden, Anglo-Germany, Poland vs Japan and China)
Is this correct?? Can someone check it?? And can someone do the chance and result it is too complicated for me to really understandScandinator 12:19, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden

 * close to location of the war:3
 * attackers advantage:1
 * Sweden, Anglo-Germany, Poland: 9
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion:0
 * Motive is religious:7
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * chance: 7

3+1+9+5+0+7+10+0+7=42

Japan

 * other side of the world:1
 * Japn, China:6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 0
 * expansion:0
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * chance: 2

1+6+2+0+0+10+10+4+2=35

Result
42/(42+35)=42/77

42/77-0.5 = 0.045454545

Swedish victory. Sweden annexes 12 pixels of Doitsuchou around Amsterdam.

Discussion
Note I'm using random.org for chance because the declaration of war was really long ago and Japan never really responded to the declaration. If anyone is unhappy with the results, they can feel free to go back and do the chance system the orthodox way. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:26, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I have developed my military for 9 turns in the past 15 years not 5 turns onlyScandinator 21:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I didn't make it clear but it resets back to zero after major conflicts, and military expansion during conflicts doesn't count. Also, turns that said both the military and economy were expanded, I counted as 1/2. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:15, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Ah well we'll just try again in 15 years...153.107.33.161 00:30, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I tried the formula for chance... Sweden got 7 and japan got 2Scandinator 04:43, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

You did everything right it seems (I didn't check the math myself), you probably should show your work next time so there is no question of whether you are lying or not. Also, you haven't fully annexed Doutsuchihou, only about 4.5%, so you can account for that by calculating the number of pixels of Doutsuchihou and finding the percentage. Let me know if you need any help with that; I can perform those calculations relatively quickly. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I would have showed working but my laptop is REALLY slow so I ran out of time. If you wish I'll upload it. Scandinator 06:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

What about the Commonwealth and Poland? Should we do our own algorithm's for territory east of the Dutch-German border?Zagoria 15:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, do so. @Scandinator you may have won, but chances are you're not going to be annexing the capital and largest city at Amsterdam. Probably somewhere marginal like Frisia. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 15:46, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

News
Deansims has asked me, Bobalugee1940, to take control of his nation because he is gone for a week. You may read the message on my talk page. (-unsigned)

Please don't disrupt the format like that. That's what the talk page is for. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:14, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Interested in Joining
I have wanted to join a map game, and this one seems to be the best. I am assuming that all nations in grey are availbable? If that is correct, then I wish to join as Naples. Must I do anything other than mark that I did so in the list, add a color to the map and create a page for the nation? Also, does Naples control Sicily in this? LurkerLordB 22:47, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I will add my name to the list and create the page, but I won't edit the map until I am sure exactly what the borders will be. LurkerLordB 00:37, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Glad to have you here, good sir. Naples controls Sicily, Italy, and the southern half of Sardinia. There's no need to edit any previous maps, but you're just in time so that you can be on the 1635 Map. It is nice to have someone in Italy, as not many people have played as Italian states. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:51, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

You, or whoever makes the map, can pick the color if you wish. The only problem is that there are not many distinct colors left. Perhaps some combo-thing?LurkerLordB 01:56, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

I don't forsee a problem. Since it's harder to edit combo-colours, we use single colours. We have any shade of brown, maroon, some shades of green, some shades of blue, light pink, or the dark teal of Ethiopia that just went inactive. If you have a preference, go ahead. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:14, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Brown would be good. LurkerLordB 02:22, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

The yellow color is even better LurkerLordB 23:18, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Who owns Sardinia? It is not listed as a playable nation, so I assume the northern part is owned by Genoa (as Genoa owned Corsica, it makes since it would be them)LurkerLordB 23:20, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

No, Sardinia is a independent country.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:49, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought Genoa owned Sardinia, but I looked back a bit and I guess it was independent after all. My mistake on the map. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:04, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

May I join? looks interesting and it doesn't yet seem to be over. Kunarian 22:32, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

It's far from over. What nation are you interested in and are you a sockpuppet? CrimsonAssassin 22:35, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not a sock puppet! Detective Kenny can vouch for me there, I also have done some things on the conworlds wiki, so no sockpuppeting here. Nation wise, give me a moment I'm looking over the list. Kunarian 22:39, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to take control of Venice, if you would be so kind Kunarian 22:44, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, we recently banned someone for a week and banned users like to make sockpuppets. It's just something we do. Venice is part of the Holy Roman Republic right now. CrimsonAssassin 22:55, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure, so the grey state between the papals and Austria which is Venice is not independent? Kunarian 22:57, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

If so may I ask the person who controls it if I may take over? Kunarian 22:59, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

It'd be worth a shot. Checking the game, Venice was taken over very recently, so a rebellion would be plausible. CrimsonAssassin 23:02, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

So may I just announce the rebellion? and after that what do I do? or do I have to go and speak to the owner of the papal states? Kunarian 23:10, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

I never accepted the conquering of Venice by Papal States because of plausibility issues. But go ahead, you're cleared for a rebellion. Just declare independence, and if the Papal States complains, don't worry, it will be handled. The issue was it was conquered in a year without any development of the military whatsoever. And glad to have you! <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Good, typing up now, also I need help with turns having trouble understanding it a bit. Glad to be here! thanks! Kunarian 23:28, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Wow, since I joined as Naples, the Italian states have suddenly become very active! Just so you know, due to the Treaty of Italy made in 1638, Naples won't go to war against you unless you defy Catholicism, and is your ally (unless the new government revokes the treaty). Turn Summary: If you are just doing diplomacy with another nation, it doesn't count. If you are upgrading your nation somewhat, such as strengthening the economy, or improving education, then it is half a turn. If you massively overhaul your social structure, or build up your military/go to war, it is a whole turn. LurkerLordB 00:01, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

What can be done one turns
On the rules, it said that diplomacy that is not against another nation counts as a zeroth of a turn, therefore, I assume that stating that I accept the treaty with Vietnam is legit?Previously this turn I did diplomacy with another nation (0) and built up the military (.5 or 1, I am still confused) LurkerLordB 23:18, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

build up the military is a full turn and i think that accepting a treaty counts as "diplomacy not against a player nation"--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:51, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Borders
For expanding, do the pixels that are in the borders count as being owned by you, or you opponent? I need to calculate how long it would take to conquer all of Sardinia (because the war is just going to sort of go on until the time it would take to move in piece by piece happens, then it all joins all at once)LurkerLordB 21:02, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Pixels is only for colonial expansion, and Sardinia is not under that category. Thus I think you could conquer Sardinia relatively quickly, seeing that the kingdom is otherwise pretty weak. In fact you could practically just annex it. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:08, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, that's good. By next turn I should have it, that will be a year and a half war (otherwise it would take like 80 years). LurkerLordB 21:16, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Janusary
Janusary's latest antics are starting to get on my nerves. He has lost all connection to plausibility. There's a line you shouldn't cross, and I think he crossed it with his undead Emperor.

Yank 21:32, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, I was just about to post that, but I found that you had beaten me to the punch. I agree. While he has always been rather implausible, he goes beyond the limits of history when he “deifies” the emperor. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:37, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Not really sure what he is doing, but clearly he is speaking metaphorically. I usually can't understand his posts but as long as it doesn't interfere with the game, I don't see a problem. Delusional emperors happen in history. Also, co-vassalage is theoretically possible. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:43, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

The Pharoahs of Egypt deified their rulers, by proclaiming them gods on earth. If his people believed in reincarnation, then they could think that the same "God"-emperor ruled over them through many different bodies. As long as it is not a real god-on-earth, I don't see that big a problem. LurkerLordB 21:51, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

He hasn't just deified himself. He specifically stated that Jahangir came back to life.Zagoria 13:25, August 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically. He said somewhere that romours of his death were created as propaganda and were false. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:32, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Or, like someone posted, it could be an insane imposter. LurkerLordB 20:38, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Now he came to a new level of implausibility.he now created sidewinder missiles.in 1639.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:09, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe all of the Mughal Empire ought to be annexed by the invaders. LurkerLordB 12:34, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't hate. Chances are, he's losing his government. I did a rough estimate and he will lose about 95% of his land, and keep the area around Delhi or where he wants. But honestly, how would you like it if someone overthrew your government and took 95% of your country? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:02, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * True, I suppose that 95% is good enough. I was looking over previous archives, and it seemed that he used to be a good player. Or was someone else controlling the Mughal Empire before him? Or has he just gone downhill?LurkerLordB 23:49, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

He was prettty much the only one to own the Mughal Empire (besides that one guy's sockpuppet). He hasn't learned anything. I remember him making constant snide replies to anything that harmed his country. At one time he tried to manipulate events to suit his own needs. He hadn't gotten any better in the time between than and now. He just was better at hiding his self-centered attitude during that period. He needs to be defeated in order to learn anything resembilng humility.

Yank 01:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I think he is trying to make things realistic with a crappy leader. There are Francisco Solano Lopezes in history, and with the overthrow of this government he should return to how he used to be. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:26, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Now that the Mughal Empire is on the inevitable road to defeat he feels the need to respond to every post affecting him with an insulting and offensive quip. This guy is digging his grave deeper and deeper.

Yank 15:59, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's gotten worse, his posts are now talking about nuclear weapons, ghosts, and his pet cat. LurkerLordB 14:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I vote ban him. I don't like using the banhammer, but this nail needs to be straightened. CrimsonAssassin 14:43, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Should We Ban Janusary?> Yes No

We don't use polls here, because we don't know who is voting. Especially since this should be a mod vote rather than a community vote. Anyway, I left an ultimatum on his talk page. Depending on his response, he might be seeing as much as a 2-month ban. I understand his posts are starting to look schizophrenic but he has shown dedication to the game and otherwise good conduct. Two months should do it easily, and any further infractions could lead to a permanent ban. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:21, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

OK, now he just retconned the whole war, saying that the invaders lost because they didn't have adequate supply lines and cooperation with the natives, and took back all of the territory he lost except for a small amount of costal colonies. LurkerLordB 21:55, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm in support of one week ban, because clearly he at least heeded my ultimatum, but he still tried to go against the rules by denying losing the war. So we need the approval of three more mods. Mods in favor say aye. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:49, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think it really should be longer, but aye aye. CrimsonAssassin 23:34, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Aye.Yank 23:36, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should be longer.Aye.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:43, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

I was just looking at this and decided to sift through the posts and find his, even though they cause the implausibility side of my brain severe tumors, I have to say that I almost cannot stop laughing at the madness of his posts XD Kunarian 20:36, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Algorhytm: Mughals vs. Hungary/Commonwealth/China/Vietnam/Russia/Sweden
How do we do it? Zagoria suggested making a separate algorythm for each front (Vietnam x Mughals, Hungary x Mughals, as for a expample).

Naples isn't sending anyone to fight, it does not have the power to wage war on the other side of two continents. It is supporting its allies in spirit and "all aid short of war". LurkerLordB 21:17, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

This is gonna be a bit tricky, seeing that none of the said countries actually border the Mughals unless you count Russia. So, the algorithm applies to every country that wishes to take territory or otherwise profit from the Mughals. Everyone else can qualify as a participant, but not have an algorithm. Also, if you cannot create a colony right now, you can't take territory unless you merge it with another colony, or otherwise reduce your number of colonies. Also, since multiple countries will be taking territory, we will use a special formula:

X=Mughal Territory

A=Percent of land taken by first country to invade

B=Percent of land taken by second country to invade

C=Percent of land taken by third country to invade

etc.

Z = (AX+B(X-XA)+C(X-AX-B(X-AX))+D(X-AX-B(X-AX)-C(X-AX-B(X-AX)))…)/(A+B+C+D…)

Territory Yield for A = AZ

Territory Yield for B = BZ

Territory Yield for C = CZ

Territory Yield for D = DZ

etc.

That way the territory distribution is fair without a chance of the entire country being annihilated.

Given that there are 5 players, it will take 72%, or X/(X+2) with X=5, annexation to overthrow the government. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:03, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

dont forget that Kazakhstan(Russian Vassal) is fighting too, although it can count as Russia. Next year I will give Permission to Hungary and the commonwealth to cross into Mughals via the volga-Kazakhstan-Changitistan-Kashmir Route, I dont know what that will do but I hope in improves the territory gained-and it realy reduces the time to get to the capital of Delhi.LxCaucassus 23:21, August 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * That can add another belligerent on your side across the board. So you will have a total of 7 belligerents, and thus need a total of 78% annexation to fully overthrow the government. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:43, August 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ought the war to last longer than one turn? LurkerLordB 00:13, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the algorithm is to determine who wins. You can stretch out the war as long as you see fit. In fact, there may also be multiple algorithms per war. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:56, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Is China withdrawing from the war, now that they are is a civil war?Zagoria 15:52, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, China's out. As long as the invasion went well, just divvy up a small coastal area for me. CrimsonAssassin 20:17, August 28, 2011 (UTC)



Thankfully I am now able to use a program to determine the results of the Mughal Wars. The result is, you guys failed to take the necessary amount of territory to overthrow the government. This is because very few of you actually upgraded your military in the given time, or if you did, you didn't dedicate the whole turn. The only person who lost is Russia. The Anti-Mughal coalition will have to decide whether they are going to accept the loss of significant privileges equal in value to the loss of about 3% of Russia, or otherwise bargain with the Mughals for the privileges back. Momentarily I shall release the full amounts of territory everyone is entitled to. In the mean time, everyone please pick a coastal Indian city to use as the capital city for your colony. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:54, August 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Correction:Russia will not lose territory, it will lose part of its Indian colony, but only a small sliver.

The results:


 * Commonwealth: 61800 sq km (1,236 px)
 * Hungary: 58650 sq km (1,173 px)
 * Vietnam: 144150 sq km (2,883 px)
 * China: 73150 sq km (1,463 px)
 * Sweden: 69750 sq km (1,395 px)
 * Russia: Will lose 200 sq km (4 px) of its Indian/Sri Lankan colony

You guys will be able to cut off the Mughals from the sea moderately well, so I suggest everyone pick an Indian city on the coast and then you guys can divide up the territory. I can help with the specific pixel counting if necessary. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:08, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Do this again in 10 years???Scandinator 06:14, August 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * You guys would be too weak for it to be realistic. Sorry I didn't include you in the algorithm, I didn't know you were participating. I'll add you now. Would you want aid from Hanthawaddy for transportation? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:18, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I already picked my part.here it is. 1173 px.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a slice, only of the coastline centred around OTL Visakhpatnam. Scandinator 08:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

There, Swedish India!!! I think its 1395 px but I could have stuffed upScandinator 08:33, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Matte of fact, 1395px is more than depicted in your map.

Russia has a population of roughly 8 million people, I dont think that the population of the Mughals is higher in this era. Altough I could be wrong.LxCaucassus 18:32, August 29, 2011 (UTC)



I'll just have 48000 sq km of Mughal coastline north of the Swedish colony.Zagoria 13:12, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll get these done. And Lx, I'm pretty sure from my research, at the time, Russia was a relative marginal "wasteland" on the edge of Europe while the Mughal population was similarly dense to how India is today, with probably around 50 million at minimum. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:12, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Russia had a population of 6 million in OTL. Add Kazakhstan, changitistan and Lithuania and it adds up to approx 8 million, but ya, mabe you were right about the population...it was 170 million in 1690(although i gota say mughalistan was bigger than in ATL)LxCaucassus 02:04, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take the portion of Mughal territory in between the Hungarian portion and the Swedish claim.

Yank 02:35, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Papal States to republic
Huy Guys i took the Papal State and i transformed it in a Repubblic....now i've attacked Venice,with religious porpous to slowly eradicate heresy (without force but with economical taxes on non catholics)and economical to conquer the venice's port and acquire their fleet,the Venice's fleet was permitted to continue to act and trade freely and with the economical help of the Pope,but they are subdued to the Pope,also Venice is full of catholics that won't pay taxes,and so there should not be any rebellion against the main power,plus the force of the Holy Roman Repubblic was concentrated on the attack of Venice,leaving one third of the army at home,this should complete the conquere without too much difficult in one year(tomorrow) -User:2.198.167.78

-The Pope is still in charge, at least symbolically, right? Because if not, Benvolio II is going to go crazy... LurkerLordB 00:33, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ehh, maybe hold off, because you've already defeated Genova and eradicated Sardinia, and that would be pretty taxing on a military used to isolation. Also, if you're going to be a republic, make sure you have a good philosophical background this early in the game. According to my reading, early modern Europeans were more interested in constitutional monarchy, and probably less so in Catholic countries such as Naples. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:34, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not the Papal states guy, I don't know who he is. He just didn't sign his post, and I responded first to him, making it look like I replied.. I'll put his IP behind his posts on the talk page so everyone knows what his posts are. LurkerLordB 00:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Situation

 * Could someone explain the current political situation to me? I am still not fully integrated, as you may call it, into the wiki yet, from my long, long wikibreak. Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:37, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Anglo-Germany is Allied with Naples which is allied to Sweden and Vietnam. Vietnam is trying to support the Chinese government due to a civil war, while Hathawaddy is supporting the rebels. The Mamluks and Ethiopians are entering a period of decline. Everyone who can is declaring war on the Mughal Empire due to its King's insane actions recently. The Papal states have united in one "Republic". Joseon is having some sort of dispute wit China recently. The Incas are expanding in South America, Naples and the Papal States/Holy Roman Republic are expanding in Italy, the colonial powers expand everywhere (except Russia has been forced out of part of India). LurkerLordB 01:00, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * LurkerbordB the Pope is still in charge,hw is some kind of king-first minister of the Repubblic,right now i don't know why in the Map'sgame the Holy Roman Repubblic is still gray and Venice is still indipendent....2.198.167.78
 * Sweden and Anglo-Germany control all of Russia's sea trade. Sweden has reunified Scandinavia. Hanthawaddy recently destroyed Vietnam. The Mughals are getting owned. The Ottomans and Mamluks are inactive. Naples and the Papal States are allying. Russia and Hungary crushed Poland. Anglo-Germany unified Germany. Incas have regained their old empire and are taking South America. Russia is expanding into Siberia. China is in a revolution. Japan has just collapsed. Scandinator 10:11, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * AND the Holy Roman Repubblic conquered Venice2.198.167.78
 * Forget about northeast Passage?LxCaucassus 22:57, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Vietnam is still around. CrimsonAssassin 22:06, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * And Russia made a Northeast passage in the Arctic ocean so trade with Asia is faster and basicaly made Asia somewhat dependant on Russia for sea trade to Europe.LxCaucassus 22:57, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Note the northeast passage is difficult, and it would probably fluctuate, and only allow trade during the summer. So I wouldn't say Asia is dependent. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:16, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Koch icebrakers sailing in front of tradeships make the route traversable in the winter, i believe i posted that earlier. look up koch-it is the first ever successful icebraker-made by Russians before the game began. That is one og the reasons that i offered selling koches to hanthawady so the russian navy doesnt have to worry about paying sailors to escort Mon Ships(who are the most frequent in the area).LxCaucassus 01:52, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

China also managed to get on good terms with the Ottomans a long while back and the Silk Road is open. CrimsonAssassin 01:13, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

The route wasn't fully navigated until 1878 IRL. Also, even with today's receding icecaps, the ice latches on to the northernmost part of Russia even in summertime. Note "Icebreakers are needed to keep trade routes open where there are either seasonal or permanent ice conditions. Icebreakers are expensive to build and very expensive to run, whether the icebreaker is powered by gas turbines, diesel-electric powerplant or nuclear energy. They are uncomfortable to travel in on the open sea: almost all of them have thick, rounded keels, and with no protuberances for stability, they can roll even in light seas. They are also uncomfortable to travel in when breaking through continuous thick ice due to constant motion, noise, and vibration." Wikipedia. The northern sea route only cuts off 5,000 miles from Hanthawaddy-Toeh Ngoa Nyoing, probably more from Joseon to Europe, but still it's not dominance. Haha trust me it affects my country too. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:27, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

The Russian ones were wooden i wouldnt say that they were expensive...at all, except mabe feeding and paying crew. Wood and leather are found everywhere. These boats(koches) are a bit different than Modern icebrakers. lets just put it at Russia has one of the most convenient sea routes from Asia to Europe. And this alone means that Anglogermany and Sweeden dont control all of Russia's sea Trade, Just the America/Africa Trade sea trade. The Russians are pretty much independant from sea trade with Asia.LxCaucassus 21:50, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Industrializing
Okay, so here's the deal. I know I have been a bit inactive lately, and i likely not be fully active until summer, but I will do my best to maintainthis game. Within a century, people will start wanting to industrialize and I will probably squarely turn down requests for some reason or other. Most of us are aware that Britain was the initiator of the Industrial Revolution, and it spread throughout the world. What it did not do is spring up independently in multiple places. So I have deliberated and decided to pick a single location for the start of the Industrial Revolution. My choice is - and I hope the mods will agree with me - Russia. User:LxCaucassus has shown an extensive amount of detail and plausibility in his posts and a large amount of research we often overlook. He is active almost every day, and he is an active and friendly participant who can use his vast knowledge of Russia and technology to improve our community game. In character, Russia has already explored many forms of technology, and thus risen to a major power. Russia has a large colonial empire from which to draw resources. And it is undergoing a rapid upheaval which sets the stage for a new order.

If LxCaucassus chooses to accept, Russia will take the following steps:
 * Focus on accumulating territory for resources alone.
 * Make a paced transition from cottage industries to the introduction of mass production.
 * Make small technological innovations over time.

He may begin industrializing by 1700 with a major technological innovation of choice. Other parts of the world will begin industrializing based on a timeframe which I am yet to lay out. Other than that, I give Lx full freedom and creativity to do what he wants. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:48, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Congrats, Lx. You certainly earned it! CrimsonAssassin 17:37, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Its very different from what happened in real life... but still plausible due to the changes in the timeline, so I think i is a good idea. I'd assume it would start in western Russia where there are cities. LurkerLordB 21:05, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

I like this proposition. My first and foremost goal for the time being is to conquersiberia and plase a stable and Russia-friendly governement in Mughal territory. The siberia paret is due to the fact that many Russian Leaders Wanted to control it in OTL and the Fact that siberia is by far the largest forest in the world...wich means Resources Galore! You guys picked a very good time for the industrial Revolution to begin because it is in the time of Peter the Great's Rule-the man that transformed Russia into a Modern European Nation.I will try to incorporate his reforms into the Process of Industrializing, and mabe add a phew as the Russian navy Started with Ivan the Great...starting with the profound study of the classical world that happend around this time. Hero's engine will become the inspiration for the Russian Steam piston engine. Steam started the revolution in OTL... I guess its logical it starts with the same technology in ATL aswell. LxCaucassus 01:01, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute! The only algorithm we had had the Mughals defeating Russia and taking part of their colony! You can't take Delhi and proclaim that you won the war anyway! Plus, Janusary isn't inactive, so you can't exactly make him a puppet state! The only reason I didn't say anything earlier was because I thought you were going to lose the battle of Delhi, as per the results of the algorithm!Zagoria 02:55, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Im not making them a puppet at all. im just making them like russia for restoration, and have nothing to do with them after that. as you would recall, there were 2 russian fronts, the northern and southern the southern was the siege of ivangrad... that fron had much less men and was much more prone to loss... and i never gained any territory... I lost territory in Sri Lanka, not in Changatai or whatnot.LxCaucassus 03:06, September 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * You lost the war, meaning you don't have any power over the Mughals. I kinda gave you a freebie, because you had an existing colony in India, but otherwise you would have been forced to lose territory or otherwise pay for the war. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:20, September 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems unrealistic that the Mughals could divide their forces to fight 6 different nations at once and still be able to defeat any of them. For the population thing, you probably should have divided the Mughal empire 6-ways, instead of having the full might of the empire fight each foe individually. LurkerLordB 16:52, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Not necessary, because each belligerent got 21 or 24 points for strength, and that is a huge advantage. The only reason anyone lost was because no one bothered to update their military. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:02, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Papal States Guy's Question

 * I don't understand why in the official map of Principia Moderni Venice is still indipendent,the Papal states conquered it before that the map was modificated.


 * 1. You need to put your seperate questions on their new section, not just add them on to an unrelated topic
 * 2. You need to sign your talk page posts by adding 4 ~ at the end
 * 3. You can only found two colonies in any 50 years, you are adding three (New Jersey, Tunis, Somalia) when you can only found 2, you need to get rid of one first.
 * 4. A spell checking device may be useful, many browsers have one.
 * LurkerLordB 16:50, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm Updates/Civility
A couple things. First of all, there is no room in this game for rudeness, spite, hatefulness of any sort. I am not going to name names, but seriously, there is no excuse. We are trying to attract people to this game, and anyone who posts rude or hateful comments makes it worse for everyone. That's why we have fair voting, mods, and algorithms to solve conflicts. If you're going to simply write hate to someone, or tell them they're not wanted, etc. do it on their talk page, but don't clog up the game. Understood?

And I'm proposing some amendments to the rules. Seeing as we may be getting into another conflict, I thought I would edit the rules, which might not make full sense. This is not ex post facto, but here:

1) A country in civil disarray cannot take territory from another country, but slows expansion by incoming parties by 2/3. This includes colonial expansion.

2) Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

3) (This is random) A country may loan 50 sq km or 100 sq km of their main territory to another country for use as a colony, per turn, although this factors into the receiver's colonial expansion. I guess we'll do a community vote, and if the rules pass by 2/3 majority, then they're good.

4) We've already partially applied this, so I'm just putting it out there, if X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.

5) As for espionage. All secrets are secrets.  How it's going to work is you can apply for espionage on this page (in a designated Espionage section), and write three or more countries you wish to have espionage into.  One will be selected randomly behind the scenes, and when a country states they have secretly performed an action, you can ask whether your espionage matches the country that had the secret action.  After successful espionage, a new country is chosen out of the three.  You may change your three countries at any time, but it changes the randomly selected country every time a country is changed.
 * For example: Portugal wants to have espionage into Spain, Morocco, and Savoy.  Behind the scenes, it is determined randomly that Morocco is the selected country.  Five years later, Spain has secret troop movements into Portugal.  Portugal asks whether espionage was successful, and the results are negative.  However, Morocco announces secret support for Spain in the upcoming war.  Upon asking the result of the espionage, Portugal finds it is successful, and the new randomly-selected country is Savoy.  However, Portugal asks to change Savoy out for France.  This changes the result, and instead, Spain is selected.

And trust me, these rules, if applied to the next war, would work against me, so no complaining about personal gain. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:19, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Supporters

 * I agreeZagoria 13:19, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:52, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --LurkerLordB 20:48, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 20:50, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sí, señor. CrimsonAssassin 00:47, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Inactivity
How many turns have to be missed to be declared inactive? Because I just restored Altair000 to being active since he only missed 3 turns, which I think is too small a number to be declared inactive, especially declared inactive to the extent that someone can freely take over the nation. LurkerLordB 22:09, September 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, oops, my mistake. I thought he had been gone for months. Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 23:12, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

It's usually pretty subjective, but no shorter than a week. Depends on the circumstances. A week is a pretty good indicator for someone who picked a country and only posted a few times, but many people who post almost daily for several months usually comes back even after weeks. But Pita, make sure I know if someone is marked inactive, because I can decide whether and how civil disarray will be carried out. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:15, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

War of Peguan Sucession
This is for the rapidly unfolding War of Hanthawadian Sucession. NOTE: This comment is here only because I couldn't just create a new section with no content. (~unsigned Yankovic270).

Hey I don't like the word Hanthawaddian. Too forced, and it doesn't preserve the etymology too well. Also, Hanthawaddy is a Burmese word (Hongsawatoi in Mon), so it would be unrealistic for it to appear ATL. Peguan is good. Mon is also good. If you want to be adventurous, you could use Ramania(n), which could be an ATL name for Hanthawaddy, from Portuguese Ramanha which comes from Ramannadesa which comes from Raman which is another name for Mon. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:48, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

I like Ramania.It wouldn't be the first time that an exonym is used to refer to a country. The most well-known example is Japan. The Japanese have never really called their country Japan. They have always called their nation either Nippon of Nihon. Anyway, I started this section to provide a place for the algorithms for the war to be written out.

Yank 22:53, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

How's your progress on the algorithm anyway?

Yank 23:10, September 8, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Nihon and Japan are from the same etymology, which was probably something like Nyih-pon from Old/Middle Chinese, which became Nihon in Japanese, but evolved into more like Jih-buhn in Chinese. Then it went into Malay before it got into some European language as Japan (possibly Portuguese). So really it all comes back to the same Chinese word. Actually, maybe when the war finishes we should get exonyms for everyone. I think for Vietnam maybe Tonkin (from Dong Kinh which comes from Chinese Dong Jing, another name for Hanoi (surprisingly the same Chinese root as "Tokyo"). Or Cochin, which comes from Malay kuchi which is name for Vietnam, and probably comes from Chinese somehow. Also Annam is another name used by the French (all three were used by the French actually) and it comes from An Nam (peaceful south in Chinese), but I guess it's offensive to Vietnamese now. Exonyms would give a more European flavor to the game I guess. But yeah, if we're going to use exonyms, let's be consistent, make everyone rename.

As for the algorithm, the program really simplified it to make it take only like 15 min, so I will do it when we're done fighting. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:36, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

This is a note: there is no name for unified Burma. Burma is split into Uppet Burma, where the Burmans live, and Lower Burma, where the Mons live. Tomorrow I will annouce the result of thr algorithm and we can keep battling for a few more years. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:51, September 9, 2011 (UTC)



Hate to break it to you Yank, but you lost. Jayadeva did win the succession war, but he betrayed you because he found he had an edge over Vietnam. You probably could have upgraded your military more, gain more allies, or bring a religious aspect into this. Or you could have moved your capital to a more strategic location than Hanoi. As it stood when you entered the war, you only had a 15% chance of winning. But as I want to keep the story going, I'm going to put up a deal. I color-coded the map at right. You can gain one color for every one of these you agree to. Taking Pegu (in blue) requires two, and it must be taken after yellow.


 * 1) Disband sathu. It kind of annoys me when you use it as a "god-weapon" and expect to improve your power.  Nothing like this existed at the time, so it is also implausible.  Wait until the 20th century.  Spies are OK, however.  And also, Hanthawaddy would use sathu as a prime target, even if it detracted from other areas of the war. I'm gonna say this is necessary if you want any territory.
 * 2) Subtract 5 from your score in war against Hanthawaddy (that is how much you lost by: 48 to 43). Standard procedure, and could represent shortsighted spending.
 * 3) Recognize Mon language in government, and Theravada Buddhism.
 * 4) Treaty of division of the Americas akin to the Treaty of Tordesillas. If you accept the blue line for North America and the red line for South America, that counts as one.  If you accept the blue line for North America, and the green line for South America, that counts as two.
 * 5) Traditional Mon rulers may retain power in at least 40% of all gained provinces, even though some may have partial loyalty to Hanthawaddy.
 * 6) Allowing ethnic Mon to create major settlements on the Malay Peninsula, although not ruled by Hanthawaddy.
 * 7) Renewing tribute of weapons and Bunga Mas to Hanthawaddy, Mon merchants have rights to settle in Vietnamese colonial ports.
 * 8) Various trade promises: Vietnam is to gain its spices from Hanthawaddy and Bi Hloa.
 * 9) Vietnam has little technological or artistic achievement for the next 25 years due to the war being devastating.

Once you make your decisions, we can determine where the line is that will determine where the war ends. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:32, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

No on all fronts. I want to win. Vietnam wants to win. Why do you have my ally Jayadeva stabbing me in the back? Can you change it? My country spent years preparing and it all came to nothing! Why is god-damned Hanthawaddy so damn strong? Why is it so unfair? You encouraged me to start the damn war when I did. I should have never listened to you. Probably rigged it so you won.

Yank 15:52, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I refuse to cede another square in to your damn Hanthawaddians.

Yank 15:57, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm: Hungary vs. Naples and Venice
Rough cut. especially on the last part, since this is my first algorythm. and i didn't knew well how to make that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:13, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary

 * Close to the location of war:3
 * Attacker's advantage: 1
 * Strength: 3 (Hungary)
 * Population:2
 * Military:2
 * Motive (Political): 5
 * Participating:10
 * Owned area for 0 years:0
 * Chance:4
 * Full Unity: No
 * Civil Disarray: No

Total: 30

Venice

 * At the location of war:5
 * Strength: 9 (Venice, Naples, Sweden)
 * Military:1
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participating:10
 * Chance:9
 * Owned area for 151+ years:-5
 * Full Unity: Yes
 * Civil Disarray: No

Total: 39

Result
39/(30+39)-0.5 = 0.065217391

Venetian victory. Venice is entitled to 6.52%, or 1181 px (59,050 sq km) of Hungary's territory. Any additional concessions may be made by treaty.

Discussion
Note, we changed the rule on full unity. It is no longer factored into the totals for each country, but it is multiplied by the end result if Hungary loses. Also, I am not following your work. What are the totals for each country? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:38, September 9, 2011 (UTC)

Btw, I think you missed out Sweden. And did you also include my continuation of armament in 1651? or does that not count in the war? this is all asuming we do it again. Kunarian 01:27, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I also opened a second front in Prussia/Poland. Can I annex territory??? Scandinator 05:48, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Collie, you got the hang of the algorithm. Just remember to subtract 0.5 at the end so you don't end up giving half your territory. :P <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:05, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Venetian Invasion of Milan
First attempt at this too, so here goes, I apparently need to annex 30% of Milan to overthrow the government.

Venice

 * Close to the location of war: 3
 * Attackers advantage: 1
 * Venice: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 2
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is religious: 7
 * 34/10*pi=10.68141502% >8 pts
 * 01:11:52 > 1*1*1*5*2=10
 * Editcount: 34

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">3+1+3+2+2+7+8+10+0=36 pts
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0

Milan

 * At the location of the war: 5
 * Milan: 3
 * country has developed military: 0
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * ?/?*pi=?% >? pts
 * 01:11:52 > ?=?
 * Editcount: ?

<p style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; ">5+3+0+0+10+?+10-5=23 pts
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Result
36/(36+23)-0.5 = 0.110169491

correction: 2x36/(36+23)-1 =0.220338983

Which means 22% or 178 px

Venetian Victory, it will be in the end even with 9 chance they will loose, however I don't know how to do their random chance, so I need help there. If it stayed like this I would annex 11% of their territory (812 px) or 89 px. I find it strange that other people can simply say they are annexing another nation and do it, is that also possible as an alternative to this due to my victory in the war? Kunarian 11:33, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest preping your military for several years first, then the success ratte will be higher. Scandinator

True, I will have to wait for my chance to defeat Milan completely. Kunarian 12:10, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I Think that this is appropriate. you just got out of a war.it would be really difficult to conquer another nation in that situation.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:29, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

A Message to Anyone who Wishes to Contest the Algorithm
Yank, your recent behavior is not accepted anywhere on the site, let alone in this game. There is no excuse to make rude and hate-filled comments. I stayed up late last night doing many of the calculations for the algorithm, and your heckling on my talk page shows you have no concern or respect for this.

The algorithm is here for a reason. It is to make the game fairer. Sometimes it turns out unexpected results, but as a mod you should swear by it. I never saw you complain when you got that huge chunk of territory in the Mughals. If you disagreed with the algorithm, you should have spoken up before then, and we could have come to an agreement.

Not only that, but I basically gave away territory to you by asking simple requests. I mean, you could have regained basically all your old territory by dismantling the sathu and giving a darn bunga mas tribute to Hanthawaddy.

Rigging? You serious? If I had completely rigged the chance 9-0, not changed the rules shortly before the game, and had your motive as "political" rather than "social/moral," then I would have 37% of your territory and be able to completely overthrow your government.

Not only that, but you expect to get away with contesting the algorithm. That is exactly what you used as an excuse to get rid of Janusary. Thus, your extreme rudeness in regard to this matter (in addition to your rudeness and hate-filled comments against Janusary) makes me want to reconsider your position. I am going to recommend a 1-week block, during which no one will touch your country, but fighting will continue as status quo, until you can prove you are level-headed enough to return to the game. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:04, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Mod vote: Three supporters needed to pass; User:Yankovic270 is not allowed to vote.

Supporters
Sorry Yank, but your comments were a little much. Zagoria 14:20, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Objectors
CrimsonAssassin 20:58, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
(I am typing here because this is almost like questioning the Algorythm but not as aggressively) I am confused about the territory ceding part of the algorithm as I have checked in one of your more recent algorithm wars, the one within Hanthawaddy (war of pegun succession) where the ceding came to 16% of the territory, I tried it out and it only came to 8% on mine, I'm doing it all correctly maybe I am just not factoring in something, because if I have it wrong it would be nice to know for the future, especially after my not so sucessful Milanese war.

here are my calculations in full:

47.5/(47.5+34)-0.5 = 0.0828220858

Kunarian 20:29, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot to multiply by two. Sorry. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:07, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Is that just for that conflict or is that for all conflicts? cause if it is then, I need more of Milan. Kunarian 21:18, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

For all conflicts. 2a/(a+b)-1 is the formula with a being the higher number. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:37, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I need to edit the out come of the Milanese war then. Kunarian 23:22, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I get banned for one incident? I, unlike Janusary, don't make it a habit to explode like that. I try to be a responsible user, and I succeed most of the time. To be treated the same way as Janusary is insulting. I said something along the lines of that on DK's talkpage and he never answered me. I understand, especially after the incident, but it is irritating to have my heartfelt appologies coldly ignored.

Yank 22:24, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Okay you're off the hook this time, but if it happens again there are no more second chances. And I left something on my talk page, maybe you didn't see it. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:52, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

ALIEN SPACE BATS, I CHOOSE YOU!
Okay I have kind of recently noticed there are a few things that are a little, just a little ASB inspired. For instance, submarines somehow keep appearing in posts, I was just wondering, how the f**k did that happen? did the alien space bats drop their plans for the red october into the hands of leonardo da vinci? I just thought I would make this post just for people who found wierd posts where someone has taken ASB juice and proceeded smear it all over their face. Kunarian 21:56, September 10, 2011 (UTC) twas me who wrote this all

This is here so that you can have a chance to share your concerns or prove yourself plausible.

Submarine approved by mods

Put information in here so people new to the game actually get an idea of where they came from and what they are like so I don't keep imagining some wierd renaissance version of Crimson Tide.

There was actualy an ancient oar-powered submersible craft created by the scandinavians. Russia got it through espionage and decided that spetsnaz would benifit from it, and Russia and Sweeden are basicaly the opnly ones that have it, just look at the map they are neighbors!(and PS whoever wrote this please sign next time)LxCaucassus 21:54, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

The Commonwealth has them too. We just haven't really mass produced them. Zagoria 14:22, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, everythings approved and no one really has anything mass produced if its that kind of technology. Kunarian 14:46, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal">'''<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:white;border:none windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in">about fifteen feet. '<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:white;border:none windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in">approved by mods''

<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in; background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">Dutchman <span style="font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif"; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in; padding:0in;background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">CORNELIUS DREBBEL <span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in; background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">, hired in 1603 as "court inventor" for <span style="font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in; background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">James I of England <span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in; background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">, built what seems to have been the first working submarine. According to accounts, some of which may have been written by people who actually saw the submarine, it was a decked-over rowboat, propelled by twelve oarsmen, which made a submerged journey down the Thames River at a depth of about fifteen feet.

<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"; border:none windowtext 1.0pt;mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;padding:0in; background:black;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">Sorry it was my mistake-English invented it but in ATL Sweeden didLxCaucassus 22:34, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Oh hai Leonardo Da Vinci Battle Vehicle Plans dissaproved, Italians only

For Vietnam only at the mo, please explain to me how you managed to get leonardo da vinci's plans when they were most likely stored away where the vietnamese would never have heard of them? I know you turned it down however please don't do anything steam powered until the time comes when its feasable.

The Vietnamese came across the plans whilst on a mission to gain the most important educational texts of Europe. They made experiments with the technology that went nowhere, and have mothballed the technology for a time the technology makes it possible.

Yank 22:04, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Okay but remember that steam technology is only talked about by the most intelligent thinkers and even then it is not on the kind of scale of steam vehicles or anything remotely close. Kunarian 22:16, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

MASS MANUFACTURE THIS! dissaproved, wait until industrialisation

For all the nations who have somehow managed to mass equip your forces with only muskets and have more cannons stretching on for further than the eye can see, please tell me how this is possible. I can say for my army that we use the Venetian armoury which works through the assembly line process and replacible parts process. please do not copy me or say, I HAVE A MILLION CRAFTSMEN! because theres a reason that the armoury is surrounded by a huge wall and theres a reason why Venetian manufacturing sucess was a well guarded secret. (-??)

This post is really disorganized. We already decided Russia would be the first country to be able to industrialize, or use steam power. Submarines are allowed but not in military contexts except reconnaissance. For the da Vinci plans, I'm going to say no. If anyone, the Italians would have had to find them first. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:36, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Venetians were really the first to industrialize in a way but not as you would imagine, heres a link to the Venetian arsenal (keep getting it confused with armoury) wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Arsenal it allowed Venice to mass produce and gave it the comercial empire that made into an economic super power. Kunarian 23:20, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

I guess shipyards are exempt, but they shouldn't get as big as the Venetian arsenal. Common sense applies. It is hard to make standard, across-the-board rules, but generally, no manufacturing of military supplies or consumer goods is permitted. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:14, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

However considering if my nation gets any bigger I could expand the Venetian arsenal or build another, considering that the Venetians were never really touched and managed to develop historically, I assume I can plausibly mass manufacture military supplies or consumer goods considering that the arsenal was able to keep a Venetian fleet of 3000 ships up and running in good maintinance in the year 1450 Kunarian 20:21, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Venice is technically in decline, but I'll let you expand it. No new facilities though outside Venice. In real life, Italy didn't fully industrialize until the late 19th century. But in this game, it looks like you're set to begin industrializing by around 1775, so don't complain. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:20, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry I won't after all, I'm glad that Venice was still in existance. :D Kunarian 21:23, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden's submarine fleet consists of around 1,000 subs. They are used only to rapidly deploy men on coastal areas in the middle of the night. Each sub transports 10 men every half hour so when used in full capacity Sweden can theoretically deploy 100,000 men in one good average night. The are undetectable as unlike open boats no light is seen from the shore. They are only used in rather shallow water too. Scandinator 12:10, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

How may I ask do you build all of these and maintain them? because if you look at historical fleet numbers a large fleet of the time was about 500 strong, so is sweden simply a submarine power or does it have a surface fleet, try and be realistic. 1000 ships is hard to do even if they are small, however give a logical explanation and it would ease everyones plausibility pains.

Also to give you an idea of things 1790's OTL Sweden had at least a fleet of 68 ships of the line, 16 frigates, 116 galleys, 154 gunboats and 44 transports Kunarian 16:09, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

I would limit you to about 5 submarines. I'm not huge on naval technology, but I am pretty sure submarines, if used at all in the 1600s, would be for reconnaissance-type missions. If you wanted to ship large amounts of people, you would use other types of ships. And 100,000 is really excessive, because if you're sending people less than 30 min away by submarine (which would be 5-ish miles given the time it takes to travel), as you seem to suggest (assuming you use every possible submarine simultaneously, which is highly implausible), why not just send people by land? A well-trained army could easily do it in an hour or two. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:48, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Siberian Expansion For Russia
I have been expanding my holdings in SIberia for some time now and, despite me saying in my 1647 post that my armies reached lake baikal, they were not added. I agree that my posts regarding expansion were fairly vague, so here's a proposal for year 1660(note, in OTL this was reached by 1650, and expansion was delayed by wars so I consider it pretty reasonable and I have been sending Cossack expiditions for the last 5 years). At least now people will know what I mean oin therms of expansion.

So here's my proposal, It would be nice to have this or at least I a variation of this map in 1660 LxCaucassus 02:15, September 11, 2011 (UTC)



And also one more question on this topic, Once I reach the Chukotka, will Alaska count as a colony in terms of expansion, or as a contiguous part of Russia ?


 * This looks pretty excessive for a limit of 7 years.It probably won't be reached in 1660, but later.but this is counting that you are expanding east in all directions.if you concentrate all your expansion southeast, you will reach the Baikal earlier.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I was expanding by 2000 sq km a turn and Baja looks barely colonized! It should at least be a lot more full than this! CrimsonAssassin 02:46, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * China has three colonies in Baja California, two in the same region.How would i know which one were you talking about?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound hard. However, I usually pointed out whether or not it was the lower or upper Baja colony. CrimsonAssassin 19:03, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * i know i did the distinction properly between the northern and southern Bajas, but the problem is in the north. there are two Chinese colonies.you say that you have one colony in California and other in Baja, but in the California one, most of its territory is sticking out to Baja California so much that it can't even be considered as California anymore.i suggest that you make a distinction between those.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:22, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

What's that tiny little nations surrounded by Russian Territory just north of Joseon?LurkerLordB 02:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Evenkia--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Lx, it will be a colony, because even OTL there weren't too many settlers and it was extremely difficult to send supplies across Siberia to Alaska. @Crimson, just a note, most countries are focusing on creating a coastline of influence to gain a grip on trade. So if you ignore the inland parts, you will expand faster and you can always come back to the inland parts later. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:35, September 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * How come all of LxCaucassus's new territory has been reverted? LurkerLordB 22:15, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Getting About That Time...
I think it's just about time to make a second archive for this talk page. CrimsonAssassin 21:23, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I've been waiting until 100,000 bytes, but thanks for letting me know. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:27, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, its getting really long. LurkerLordB 00:27, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

Already is in 113,000. i already placed a "Archive 2" there in the top of the page.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:45, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

What conversations should be moved over to the archive? Because some conversations might still be going on. LurkerLordB 17:01, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Maps
I modified the map to take into account the two Italian nations I have unified with in a HRE style, however I would rather be a collection of nations than just one nation or just two nations with vassals. I wonder if this is allowable or do I have to annex them? I would prefer not to however.
 * Excerpt from the rules;

"There are supernational confederations (e.g. the Holy Roman Empire, the Kalmar Union), and they function like alliances. They can be broken (e.g. the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire) and they can be formed (e.g. the unification of Spain)"
 * This means that you can form one of these.but they will be counted as one country on the map.so, the borders of Mantova and Modena won't be seen, but they exist.also, the states of your supernational confederation won't be counted as vassals, so they won't make up for colonial expansion.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:09, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant then. Kunarian 19:25, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

That's the wrong map though, it doesn't have Russia going all the way to the Baikal Lake (now I think they are all the way to Manchuria). Also, Burgundy needs to be colored grey, there person hasn't posted in eons. LurkerLordB 22:00, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I second that thought, I already reached Baikal: why did russia's territory get SMALLER in siberia from 1650?LxCaucassus 13:58, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, in my map (because two were uploaded, one by me and other by the user who plays as Venice) you reached the Baikal and the Pacific, though i think that given a acceptable expansion rate, you would not have reached the Pacific yet.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:50, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Manoa and Onguayal
I was interested in these two nations, because I had never heard of them before, and googled them. Manoa appears to be in Hawaii, and I found no trace of Onguayal on the internet. Is there a link where I could find out more about them? LurkerLordB 23:20, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid Manoa is not an option, as that Joseon has colonized them a LONG, LONG time ago. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 23:29, September 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd find that hard to achieve Pita, as it is in the middle of the Amazon jungle. LurkerLordB 00:17, September 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * ??? I colonized Manoa, in Hawaii, not Onguayal . . . Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:21, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * On the map, there is a nation in the middle of South America also called Manoa. By the way, Hawaii should be added to the map. Poor Hawaii, never on any Map games, but I don't know exactly where it goes so I can't add it. LurkerLordB 00:28, September 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Manoa IS on Hawaii, and Hawaii is on the map- look on the very left. Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:31, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I know it is in Hawaii, but if you look on the map at the top of the talk page, the one with all the names, one of the small, isolated South American nations is labelled that as well. Confusing. LurkerLordB 01:32, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Pita, there's a difference between Kingdom of Manoa and Manoa Valley. They're on different sides of the world.  @LurkerLord, Joseon colonized Hawaii in the 1400s.  But I wouldn't have put it on the list anyway, because Hawaii was under four different chiefs (Oahu, Kauai, Hawaii, Maui) at the time. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  02:55, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, in looking for a good base map back in 1500 when we started using blank countries on the map, I found a forum on alternatehistory.com. The maps included the kingdoms of Manoa, Onguayal, and Tapajoso in the Amazon with a Dorling Kindersley map as a referencr. I put them on the map for variety, even though I don't know much about them. So they're open to players who would probably have to do a lot of improvisation. Later in the game they might compete with colonial powers for control of South America. Idk what happened to Tapajoso, but if I remember I'll add it to the map. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:36, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I added Manoa and Onguayal, but i thought that Tapajoso was too complicated, so i gave up on that.i don't even know if the locations and sizes of Manoa and Onguayal are right.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:16, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

More Updates to the Algorithm
Well, seems that lately the algorithm has been adapted not only on Allies vs Axis Revised, but also on Spanish Althist, which is pretty cool that we have that kind of reputation. The past few wars have made me think of further amendments to the algorithm. I suppose we should work on perfecting the algorithm for use in future map games.

One thing I noticed was interesting was for a motive "reclamations of territory" is worth almost as much as life or death. Also, I was thinking a few updates for "high ground." It seems too complex for the existing definition. So thus, a country qualifies for high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

And also, I have been thinking how little power, stability, and influence is taken into account. It is common that a large country will become overconfident and fail to take over a smaller country, but 2 points doesn't seem like enough for population. Also it doesn't seem to apply to countries that have a large advantage in OTL, like how England didn't lose much in their colonization spree.

So any ideas? I kind of like Crimson's idea in Cras ut Superstes for stability points, but it would be a bit hard to make it objective. Anyway, any ideas? I'm thinking power/stability/influence could be worth 0-5 points. This is to ensure that people aren't forgetting to update their military, which along with strength, are the two single most important factors. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:33, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

I like what you did with the high ground scenario. Here's what I thought of for the stability points.

Each empire will have a stability score that they will factor in. An ideal score is 1500 or greater. Those that keep these scores for decades will see an overall increase in military strength, bonus stability points, a bonus to algorythm outcomes, and other bonus things. If your score is below that, don't worry. However, you will lose at least 20 points for every turn that you don't work on your interior/change something. The weight of invasion, war-time unhappiness, and idiot emperors will increase how many stability points. If your points drop below 1000, you'll lose at least 30 stability points a turn (unless you work on it). If your stability points fall below 500, you have the option of spitting your empire for extra points. Once you hit less than 100, your empire collapses completely. CrimsonAssassin 15:19, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds all good. We should be able to incorporate it every five years. Maybe a couple of edits to the formula:


 * stability*power/50,000, rounded = bonus algorithm points
 * power = log (population)*50 + economic power
 * economic power =
 * urbanization (150 highly urbanized/industrial, 100 somewhat urbanized/commercial, 50 slightly urbanized/nodal, 0 rural society).
 * resources (50 precious metals, 100 widespread fertile soil, 50 some partly fertile soil, 50 cash crops and spices, 50 other non-staple food/mining/guano)
 * funding system (100 effective tax system, 50 weak tax system, 20 each colony)
 * technology (350 digital, 300 radio, 200 telegram, 100 iron/steel, 50 bronze age, 0 stone age)

Stability = Status Quo/(Territory+log(Population))
 * -20 every turn (-30 if stability lower than 500)
 * +25 economic improvement
 * +30 religious/moral revival
 * +25 infrastructure
 * +10 war
 * 100*percent won in a war
 * -500*percent lost in a war


 * Territory (4 large empire such as China, 3.5 medium-large empire/state or kingdom such as Poland, 3 medium kingdom such as Nepal, 2.5 small kingdom or duchy such as Bhutan); note this aspect and governnent are not touched after the new government begins.
 * Stability begins at (Log (Population)/Territory + 1)*500
 * Splitting territory into n parts equates stability to sqrt(n)*stability. You may divide into any plausible amount, but you must wait 100 years before dividing again.
 * Change of government resets stability automatically.
 * A country collapses when stability reaches below 300. The player must at that point create a new government or collapse completely into civil disarray.

Stability will be placed in the key beginning 1700, and implemented the same year. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:44, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

I think we could use more additions or subtractions, like this:

Penalties: Benifits: CrimsonAssassin 01:05, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20
 * Nearby unrest= -10
 * Minor invasion= -50
 * Major invasion= -100
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100
 * War won= +50
 * Improvements= +30
 * Every alliance= +10
 * Every trade route= +5
 * Every vassal= +20
 * Every colony= +20

I want to kind of avoid that becoming too complicated or subjective, but here's my opinions: Benifits:
 * Penalties:
 * Each non-improvement turn= -20 (sure)
 * Wars lasting more than 5 years= -20 (this would encourage people to cut wars short rather than make them plausible) From what I've seen, most wars last around five years, but whatever you think the average war lasts on PM is fine.
 * Nearby unrest= -10 (not sure what you mean) A nearby nation has a civil war or breaks down
 * Minor invasion= -50 (makes sense, but realize expansion already kills you in wars. This interferes with the war algorithm anyway.) By this, I mean a border skirmish that ended up going into your territory.
 * Major invasion= -100 (differece between major and minor?) If a big chunk (maybe more than 15%) is captured or if a major city is captured.
 * Less than 3 trade routes= -100 (would be unfair for smaller countries, and very subjective. Do you mean internal or external?) External. Most countries have a fine network of trade with other countries from what I've seen.
 * War won= +50 (I'd prefer if it depends on how well the war was won. An easily won war would have minimal effect, but a long, dragging war would be damaging even with victory) I guess this could be taken off.
 * Improvements= +30 (sure)
 * Every alliance= +10 (makes sense, but only as a one time thing)
 * Every trade route= +5 (vague. I don't think most people are going to make a list of trade routes and if they do they will probably overestimate. But I agree we need something like this.) Maybe financial alliances or something?
 * Every vassal= +20 (Vassals don't help with stability. This is more of a power issue) Yeah, this is kind of stupid
 * Every colony= +20 (I wouldn't say colonies count as stability, more as power like vassals) So is this

<small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:09, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

Posted clarifications in bold.

If this is too complicated, the mods can always zap countries back in line CrimsonAssassin 04:21, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

This means that we're gonna have to use full turns in each turn to not lose points?And, about economic points, and if you don't have any idea about what are the resources of your country?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:29, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it's no big deal. It simulates most countries' rise and decline. Most European countries don't have that many resources, unfortunately, but if you get a colony you can add the resources. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:17, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

2nd Hungarian War
Has anyone thought about making an algorithm for the war currently being fought in Hungary? It's getting a little out of hand.

Yank 11:38, September 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * No. it will work out, and if somebody makes one, i risk letting Béla (VII, because the VI died.) and Géza's forces win.then i'll have to contest the algorythm.then i'll risk get banned just like happened to you. i planned the outcome of the war since the 1652 turn,and it will end with András winning and being crowned.(Szabolcs is his ally).i made this war because i needed a reason to get rid of Béla VI and make Hungary lose power without having to lose too much territory (i had this idea when i lost the Second Venetian-Hungarian War.).

Clarifying (my main point is underlined); --Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:10, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * the eventual victory of András will not change any foreign relations or alliances.except those with Sweden, Venice and Naples (the alliance with Sweden will be resumed, and peace with Venice and Naples will be resumed, because Béla insisted in warring Venice, Sweden and Naples despite the peace treaty signed.
 * Sweden is Poland's ally, and Poland is allied with the forces led by András, allied with Venice, with the objective of overthrow the king.(obective that did not went quite right).
 * it is not a foreign invasion.it is a civil war with Sweden and Venice helping Poland and András' forces (both are allies).
 * Poland won't get any territory from Hungary, as well as Venice and Sweden.

I didn't get banned. DK let me off the hook, but put me on notice. I just need to keep (much) better control of my temper.

Yank 23:39, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

I am not saying that you got banned.with "i'll risk get banned just like happened to you" i'm saying that you almost got banned, and it would happen to me if somebody made a algorythm for this.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:35, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

You can ignore the algorithm for civil wars, or with agreement by both parties. I just chose to use one for the Peguan Succession. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 14:33, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Colonies and Collapsing Mother Countries
I was wondering if there should be some rule about what happens to a colony when the mother nation collapses. For example, Japan still has a global empire, despite the fact that Joseon and Vietnam are invading it from both sides. Should the colonies be reclaimed by the natives, become idependent, or be snatched up by other colonial powers once the main nation goes down? LurkerLordB 19:46, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should a Mother country collapse like japan, the colonies should break off and depending on whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have not accepted colonists culture (return territory back to original state), whether they are mainly inhabited by natives and have accepted colonists culture (and vice versa (become an independant nation either aligned or un-aligned with the mother country)) and whether they are mainly inhabited by colonists with colonists culture (will remain by mother countries side until the end) appropriate dealings should be exacted, for instance a colony heavily populated by japanese with a heavy japanese culture won't suddenly become say dutch again or won't turn back into unpopulated lands. Kunarian 20:05, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

In real life, there was no "rules" about this topic. Usually the colonies just go into limbo. When Napoleon invaded the Netherlands, suprisingly many of the Dutch colonies continued as normal, and the Dutch regained control later. Should Vietnam and Joseon capture Japan, the colonies become independent. Because of colonization's extent during this time (which didn't affect social structure too much, unless the colonies are Spanish style encomienda states, in which they would be fully independent, although this is not the case with Japan), the colonies would probably collapse into weak quasi-independent duchies overlapping with local countries. Or Vietnam/Joseon can capture the colonies, but they have to be allowed to by colonial restrictions. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 20:31, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Edits
Guys, I thought it was clear enough that anything on the page preceding the actual game is to be kept presentable at all times and in most cases only to be touched by mods, unless you're signing up. Don't post personal comments in the area or remove anything, especially the map. Feel free to upload your own maps as long as they are in the correct format, but don't remove the key or anything. We want to keep the game presentable for possible new recruits, and I can't be on at all times to make sure this is kept. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:19, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, just didn't know where to submit maps. Kunarian 01:21, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

You were right to upload it in the correct name, but you don't need to do anything else. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:10, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I want join
Hellow! I want join this game (as France) but i don't understand the colonisation system. Can somebody explain it to me? Thanks ^^ --Galaguerra1 02:28, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

We already have someone playing as France. Would you like to play as another nation? Just look at the map included at the top of this page and see if you like any of the other, unused nations.

Yank 02:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, in the list of nations in Europe, France's user has been removed due to inactivity, so you can play as France. The map just hasn't been updated. (France and Burgundy both need to be recolored light grey) LurkerLordB 02:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

Map problems
OK, when Kunarian uploaded the new map, he forgot to add a bunch of stuff to the map (such as all of Russia's expansion for the past decade, and all of the expansion of Ricasolia on Cuba, the division of Japan, and Hungary's civil war is over now). I don't want to seem insulting to him, but the past two maps are both messed up and now have numerous revisions because he wasn't paying attention to what other people had posted. I think the last two maps he made should be deleted and then recreated so that they are accurate without having to wait more than a week for the wikia images to auto-update themselves. LurkerLordB 16:18, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think he was trying to do the entire map. Rules prohibit non-moderators (or non-mapmakers for that matter) from editing countries other than their own. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:50, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your complaints but as DK said I was just trying to do my Venetian moves. Kunarian 18:57, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't i said that if i missed somtehing you could just point that out?anyway, as LurkerLordB said, you could upload it with other name.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:14, September 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be a good idea next time to upload it as a different name and not use it as the official map if you are just going to show your parts instead of everything else so no one is confused. LurkerLordB 19:07, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

However, this part of him editing only that and trying to post it as map of the game (he could have gotten a other title, instead of using the template.matter of fact, the color the he puts to venice in the map doesn't even match the key.) without any updates... {C}i talked to him that if i made a mistake in Venice's territory he could talk to me about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

China also captured a fair amount of Guatemala, Honduras, and the southern Yucatan. CrimsonAssassin 16:34, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * My version of the map has this updates.but the display of the upside of the main page has his map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:56, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

I just want to point out that we need to remove the colour for the Kelts from the key. What I don't understand is that the Kelts haven't been playing for centuries and they are still mentioned on the key. And the fact that Switzerland/Burgundy is still on the map even though the player quit months ago.

Yank 19:01, September 18, 2011 (UTC)

In-Game Discussion of 1660

 * I have repeatedly said that New Lithuania controls ALL territory south of the Joseon colony. Why does the map maker repeatedly ignore that long thin island to the west of the other Phillipine islands?
 * Calm down. That wasn't Collie or me who uploaded the map. And also, you should really try to learn the name of the island before trying to make your case. Just saying. It makes you seem unworthy of owning it. -DK
 * It's name is Palawan. I think I asked for it by name once, but no one listened.
 * Okay, found it in an earlier post. Sorry about that, it will be on the next map.
 * Fixed it.
 * Also, Sweden annexed East and West Doitsuchou.
 * Also Nippon is the vassal state of Vietnam, not Joseon. Why is it coloured in Joseon's purple instead of Vietnam's blue?
 * Wait.Kunarian made the map, and in my version it is still in gray because i don't know how it is gonna be divided. can somebody inform me what territories go to each country in the division of japan?
 * Actually, in the new map, the southern part of Japan appears to be of a different shard of purple than either Vietnam or Joseon.
 * That's not the point. I look at the map and the colour for Nippon looks more like Joseon's than Vietnam's. Shouldn't a Vietnamese vassal state have a colour simmilar to Vietnam's? It worked that way for New Lithuania, so why not Nippon?
 * Its supposed to be the Nipponese Vassal of Vietnam. However I could not find the map colours and so tried to improvise and came up with something that is almost indistiguishable from Joseon and hard to see as related to Vietnam much to my discontent.
 * Where is located your Nuovo Venetia colony? there are two russian colonies in north america.
 * Its below the most southern north american Russian colony.

(-unsigned)

In-game discussion is okay on the page, even though it breaks the flow, but if you put in on here, make sure that you put whose post it is in reply to, and what year. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:32, September 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * In the archive last time some guy was posting a bunch of the stuff taken from the page onto the talk page to try to clear it up. I just thought that such a large coversation (more than just 1-3 lines) was taking up space.  It related to the map problems, so I just moved it under that.  BTW, how do you archive a talk page?   The little number is there but red, and all the stuff is still on this page. LurkerLordB