Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't somebody updating that map above? RandomWriterGuy 06:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stage 1

 * Russia main nation + Livonia, Lithuania, Armenia, Kazakhstan
 * Finland main nation
 * Estonia + Sweden - only on Scandinavian peninsula
 * Beijing and surrounds

Stage 2

 * None.

Stage 3

 * None.

Stage 4

 * None

Stability for non-player nations
Just to clarify: from this point on, the population and time ruled factors in the algorithm will be replaced with bonus points for player nations. For non-player nations, it will go as follows:

2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points

Any problems with this system?

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I tweaked it slightly just a second ago, and it is correct as above. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Stability for Player States
Okay, time for the new system. This should be a lot more simple and a lot fairer.

System on Stability
The new system will distinguish government stability score (GSS) from common stability score (CSS). The sum is overall stability score (OSS).

Government stability score is basically the stability curve. The formula is 10*d^1.25/1.2^d where d is the number of decades the government has been in power, rounded to the nearest year. It is rounded to the nearest 0.1.

Common stability score starts at zero, and measures the stability of the common people. This number starts at zero. Economic improvements, propaganda, and religious revivals are +0.5 per year. Expansion and war are -1 per year. Make the most out of your expansion, and choose wisely guys.

When OSS reaches 0, you get a mod rebellion, so you can always change governments before then to keep this from happening.

System on War Algorithms
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm. So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. But you still lose -1 CSS for each turn you take during the war. However, it should be noted that the person who chooses how long the war is going to last is the winner. The winner may not hold the war if their OSS goes to zero. A country fighting on multiple fronts will lose twice as many OSS each turn.

If your OSS reaches zero during a war, you will have a rebellion during the war but it will not affect your overall score.

System on Rebellions
For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Why this works:
 * The stability scores are much lower and much less variable.
 * It actually takes into account usage of resources.
 * It prevents people from accumulating huge stability scores and wielding them against blank player nations who only have the stability curve.
 * It discourages too many changes of government because countries are most vulnerable as soon as they change government.
 * Rebellions have a good chance but they won't necessarily take over the entire country or completely be annihilated.
 * It's possible to keep your stability score artificially just above zero, but if you get invaded, you're screwed.

Discussion
Please discuss here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:28, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

... after all my effort... ah well i understand. Especially since Hungary was going to get 114 points if I updated now Scandinator 06:22, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I like this system much better. The old one would have worked good in theory, but there were too many things which opinion could effect or were complicated. It would work well in a videogame or something though. LurkerLordB 21:59, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

My only question is how drastic does it have to be to be considered a change in government? LurkerLordB 22:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think mod rebellions should be like a civil war. CrimsonAssassin 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well, I can't think of a better way to give rebellions a chance without taking too much territory out of the nation. Got a better idea?

And a change in government would mean that the previous government wouldn't have wanted the change to happen. This is different from say, a new king that is much more well liked than his predecessor. Instead, the way you make your king more well-liked is with propaganda, which adds

One problem I am running into. Take the scenario: someone works on their economy one hundred years straight, and their stability is at 50 by the end of that period. Then, they go on a rampage, and because their stability is so high, they conquer about 20 countries with about 2 years each, and still have about 10 stability left, which makes it hard for them to be invaded. The only solution I can think of is another curve (yay). So when your Common Stability Score gets above 5 or below -5, additional quantities are square rooted. So instead of 8 stability points, it would be 5+√(3), and the person in the example would have 5+√(45) stability, which is about 11.7 instead of 50. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:12, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

If someone was working on their economy for a hundred years straight, they deserve a successful rampage if you ask me. CrimsonAssassin 02:30, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Crimson, both to make it fair to nations that works on their economy for a hundred years straight, and because I am tired of math. LurkerLordB 02:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Independence Movements
in response to some concerns, I'll address the issue of colonial independence here. I'm giving the honor of the first independent colony to Hungary, where possibly Öböl or Újfunlandi could be the first, or he can pass the honor to someone else. This should take place between 1750 and 1800. This will set off a series of rebellions. You are not forced to give up your colonies, but you can still control your independent nations. At that point, having a lasting cultural impact is more important than just having more territory. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:32, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to judge whether or not a colony is old enough to break away. One question: I assume this applies just to colonies, and not to other subjugated territories. LurkerLordB 02:53, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) It needs to be old enough to have a significant amount of people who were born in the colony and identify with it rather than the mother nation
 * 2) It needs to be big enough to pose a credible force capable of breaking away. A 10 px size colony is not going to be capable of breaking away by war, and at this time period, no peaceful break aways will work.

Anyone can have a subjugated territory declare independence at any time. I chose Hungary because they have a long colonial history and extensive settlement in Újfunlandi and Öböl. I am leaning towards Újfunlandi because it is literally the most largely settled colony in the game, but as you said, Lurker, there has to be a good reason for a break, so it is up to Collie. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "you can still control your independent nations."?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I think what he means by that is the player has the option to control what their former colonies do even after they rebel. Question: if we made a colony out of a subjugated territory, (Aztecs, Incans, ect.) what would you say is a good time for them to rebel? CrimsonAssassin 12:34, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I say that for colonies to rebel, they ought to have been old enough for a whole generation to have lived and died in it. LurkerLordB 21:55, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'd say at least a century since the establishment of the colony. CrimsonAssassin 23:33, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Map Problems
Adal belongs to Ethiopia.Scandinator 09:32, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

No, he said on his post that he annexed 13,5% of Adal.not all of it. and Ethioipa led the war, not Sweden.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

And Vietnam has conquered Joseon's colonies in East Asia.

Yank 14:59, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, this was because i added on the original, and i started to edit on other file, and i thought that i'd added it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:46, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

And China puchased Tibet a while ago actually. CrimsonAssassin 16:53, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Another issue is that the new government in Itsaygahi has merged the vassals as autonomous provinces into Itsaygahi. Could this be shown on the map. Also, an autonomous province should exist for the Hurons which were a Itsaygahan protectorate under the Old Kingdom. Thanks. Mumby 14:18, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

How should a autonomous province be depicted?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:38, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Karafuto/Sakhalin
I want to know who founded the outpost on Karafuto, as I want to make a deal with them.

Yank 20:18, December 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Solution A: The island is divided similar to how it was divided between Russia and Japan in OTL. The other nation (presumably Hanthawaddy) gets the northern half, and Nippon gets the southern half.
 * Solution B: Hanthawaddy gets the current area around their enclave, and the Nipponese get the remaining 95%.

I'm fine just to take the two peninsulae on the east of the island. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:02, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

France

 * Location: 2
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France(L)/Burgundy(MV)/Algeria(MV)/:8
 * Expansion:-2
 * Military Expansion:6
 * Stability: TBD
 * Motive: (Political) 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:8
 * Editcount: 417
 * 2*3*4*9=216
 * 417/216xpi =62.3830541
 * Total=33+stability

Wolof

 * At the Location of the War: 5
 * Wolof(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 37.5^1.25/1.25^37.5*2.5*7=0.377095757=0
 * Motive (Life or Death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Total= 37

Result
TBD once French Stability is determined

Discussion
I classified the expansion into Arabia and Inca as being expansion, because it was beyond the normal limits of colonial expansion. You would think that France would need to incorporate the Songhai territory into their own for a while first before any expansion, and that they would have trouble dividing their forces between the Arabian war and this one. I used the stability curve for Wolof, but I need someone else to make the French one (aka Detectivekenny) LurkerLordB 15:31, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Glitch
After I did my edit, a glitch occured. How did that happened? RandomWriterGuy 06:59, December 4, 2011 (UTC)