Talk:New Union/Archive 2

Some more ideas... ура!
"UNICORNS AND GLITTER!!!"

Sorry, guess I am a little hyper at the moment. Anyway, here are a couple of ideas I would like to throw around and get some feedback on, because I personally am stumped on an answer.


 * Decline of NATO?: I have recently reconsidered the expansion of NATO for TTL, and have decided that the Soviets would not allow NATO to expand anymore east. I have come up with an even more interesting idea, what I call the, in which Poland and so on declare their neutrality between NATO and the CSTO, but agree on joint and equal cooperation. With that said and done, I have recently been thinking about France. I never knew this, but France has not been an active part of NATO since the 1960s. NATO forces in France no longer exist, but France continues to work as part of NATO. In fact, it has only been recently (i.e., the Civil War in Libya) that France has openly discussed reintegrating with NATO. Maybe with the USSR continuing to exist, and having friendly relations with the west, and France's importance with European Integration, maybe France would go in a completely different direction. Maybe France would drop their cards and completely leave NATO all together. It doesn't sound so far-fetched to me. Out of all the NATO nations, France has had the closest relations with the USSR during the later years of the Cold War (including French cosmonauts as part of the Intercosmos program). I also have been trying to reinterpret the EU in TTL. While EU membership is taken by Russia as being absolute relations with the west in OTL, the EU would be taken as a more neutral organization, which forms as a means to protect the sovereignty of Europe from the USSR and USA, and France would be a big part in this. Just as in OTL, the EU is growing and growing, possibly going to become a superpower in the following century, so I believe it would have to eventually move towards its own sphere. So in short, with the Cold War over, the end of the Iron Curtain, and the USSR working peacefully with the west, the French would reconsider their involvement in NATO. With Poland, Czechoslovakia, et al. forming what would become the "Neutral Bloc," France considered itself in a similar situation. In fact, France only left NATO command because it too wanted to protect its sovereignty (believing NATO was more in control by the US and UK, while France was on the bottom). In response to the Neutral Bloc, France would declare their secession from NATO, which wouldn't be so much of a problem since NATO forces haven't been in France in decades. France declare to establish equal cooperation with NATO and the USSR. Maybe Germany and other NATO members would follow suit, leaving only the US, UK, and the most loyal members left in NATO. Though still a major military bloc, it would not be as powerful as in OTL (while the Soviet bloc would also be just as loose). France (and maybe Germany, if they too decide to leave) would be the main players in the future of the EU, leading to the rise of "Europeanism," the idea that Europe should be in control of Europeans, not by the Americans or the Soviets. So ironically, the US would also loose their bloc in Europe.
 * Yugoslav Republic of Dardania: In TTL, I have already decided that the Yugoslav-Kosovar relations would be more peaceful. Though not brotherly, it would be peaceful enough to avoid war and the further collapse of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia would elect Milo Đukanović as president in 1997 for is support of a Soviet-like system of sovereignty in Yugoslavia. Unlike Slobodan, Dukanovich (with great support from Gorbachev) would work to bring peace between the Slavic majority and the Albanian minority. In 2000, Kosovar President Ibrahim Rugova (just as in OTL) would propose the creation of "Dardania" (a historic name for Kosovo, used by Albanians in the region). But unlike OTL, this Dardania is larger. Rugova would propose a united republic between the "" (the Serbian controlled region that we all know as Kosovo), and the self proclaimed "Republic of Ilirida" (the Albanian regions in Macedonia). Ironically, Serbs would welcome the idea (primarily because it would keep the region within Yugoslavia, and because Serbia has already expanded to include Srpska), but the Macedonians would be a little bit peeved at the idea. After a minor crises in 2001, the Albanians of Macedonia request to become part of a greater Yugoslav-Albanian republic. In 2002, the Albanians gain their wish. The Republic of Dardania is formed with the unification of Kosova and Ilirida, and now the "Dardanians" gain full sovereignty and equality in Yugoslavia.

I would really appreciate some feedback, get some external opinions before I consider making any of this canon. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:40, April 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * The Dardania concept is a good one. I'm not so sure, mind about the French leaving NATO, however. They haven't left since the collapse of the USSR otl, and enjoy the little "security blanket" it offers them - i.e. they don't have to do anything, but get all the benefits anyways. Here, with the USSR still intact, though not so imperialistic or controlling, I kinda doubt that they would shed this. It's not like they normally listen to NATO anyways, lol. Maybe just have them pull their troops out of Germany like otl, and aid the Soviets in the third world somewhat? Lordganon 19:03, April 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for your feedback, Lordganon. Now that I do think of it, it may be good for France to remain in NATO, but I think it should remain out of the command in any case. I still need to work out the kinks on Dardania, but glad to hear it sounds good.


 * I also came across an interesting find that might be interesting for Japan... maybe. I read that Gorbachev was planning on established better Soviet-Japanese relations, and one of the ways he wanted to do this was to bring and end and work out the . Gorbachev made it clear that the USSR would not hand over all the islands, but would be willing to discuss the Northern Territories (the southernmost islands that are closest to Japan). When the USSR collapsed, Yeltin's government was more defiant on loosing any of the islands, and more worried about internal affairs. Though I can't say how this would turn out, maybe the USSR would agree on the Japanese definition, or vise versa, but there was a proposal to only give the southern most and smallest islands back to Japan. It isn't a bad idea, after all, the USSR was than finalizing border disputes between neighboring China, so why not give Japan back these islands, and make better friends with Japan than the Russo-Japanese relations are now. Also, I came across an article which along with mentioning the visit, Japan offered aid to the Chernobyl tragedy. IRONY! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:22, April 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, even Putin as recently as a few years ago offered the return of the two smallest southern ones in exchange for a permanent peace treaty, which the two have still not signed. By the sounds of that article, if you have the Soviet Union offer the southernmost 4 or so, in exchange for the treaty, the Japanese would do it. With Gorby wanting to work it out, I think that's reasonable. Lordganon 15:00, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. After doing some more reading, I am more eager to have the this work out. I read that Japan was one of the inspirations for perestroika. If Gorby (I love that, but I keep forgetting about it) was really willing to talk about it, I think it could work out in favor for both. Japan gets the Northern Territories (all four islands), in exchange that Japan not militarize the islands (similar to the USSR's position on the German Reunification), the rights of Soviet citizens living on the islands, and opening up aid and economic cooperation between the USSR and Japan. IMHO, I don't think loosing these islands would be as much of a big deal for Gorby, as he live in a nation that would be twice the size of Yeltin's Russia, and the backing of the republics. The USSR also gained portions of Moldova and Gerogia just prior to when this would be made official, and imagine the economic boom that the USSR and Japan (who at the time were both declining [the USSR more than Japan]). I will work it out a little, but I am happy to think about it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:12, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan SAR?
A few weeks ago, an anonymous user created a page for. In the "OTL equivalent," it states that it was China and Taiwan. I don't know if it was a typo, their definition, or whether they had an idea they wanted to propose. I am not an expert on China, but I do know that there are Two Chinas. The People's Republic of China is the communist government for the mainland (which also includes Hong Kong and Macau as SARs), while Taiwan is governed by the democratic (and nationalist) Republic of China. I have been doing some quick reading on the aspect of Chinese reunification, and found out that the policy which would reunite Hong Kong and Macau with the mainland was called. The policy was made by Deng something (Chinese Gorby?), and was maid primarily for the reunification of the mainland and Taiwan. Though the policy would eventually reunite China and two cities, Taiwan is still separate. I read that this was due to more politicians supportive of independence (the formation of a "Republic of Taiwan"), rather than reunification.



But after doing some reading, I think that there could be a possibility that the OCTS could work out in favor of a full reunification of China. I was thinking of a double-edged sword, in which both sides cave in and lead to a (potentially) better atmosphere for both. Here's what I thought of:


 * Gorbachev's openness to its neighbors has begun to scare some people in the PRC. In only a matter of years, the USSR has reopened relations with Japan (by giving back the northern territories), and has established relations with South Korea (a nation which it did not recognize just years earlier). There was growing fear that Gorbachev may try to establish relations with the Republic of China. Though many nations recognize the ROC, the fact that the USSR would made many fear that this would lead to a shift in the region, and would cause the USSR to potentially support Taiwanese independence. Because of this, the PRC would be more determined to reunite the two Chinas, even if it means loosening the proposed polices to do this (i.e., more autonomy for Taiwan?).
 * On the other side of the strait, the reforms of the USSR into a union of sovereign states has spread across Taiwan. Though there would still be a divide, more and more Taiwanese show interest in reunification. The idea would be loved more when the PRC offers changes to its original proposal, which would be somewhat more beneficial for Taiwan.

Some point prior to 1996, the reunification of Taiwan and the mainland would take place. Later, Hong Kong and Macau would become part of the PRC, completing the reunification. Just like OTL HK, Taiwan would gain autonomy (if not more that OTL). The TWD would remain the currency on the island, and capitalism would remain on the island. Taiwan would retain a separate internet sever from the mainland (just as HK and Macau), which would lead to controversy today as Google would work there instead of the mainland. Though the mainland would like to keep it secret, the aspects of Taiwanese independence continues to exist on Taiwan, and would also have support from several in HK and Macau. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:27, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

A good idea in theory, but I have to kinda doubt it would happen unless China reformed its government to be like your USSR did here. Even then, it would probably just stay independent, but with a much more pro-reunification view than otl. Lordganon 01:15, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

Union of Balkania


I was just browsing through the Wikipedia and I dug up an article about a proposed state called "Balkania". It was the name of a proposed state for a reformation of Yugoslavia, It was suggested by a Albanian politician Adem Demaci. I've created a flag for a concept, I've used the Byzantine eagle as the symbol, and the four stars for the 4 republics. Vidboy10 21:20, April 10, 2011 (UTC)




 * Great minds think alike. I actually considered this idea before, but I believe this was too optimistic for Yugoslavia at the time. I decided that it would be better to incorporate the Balkania idea in a different way. The words of Demaci would become big news in Yugoslavia, and would lead to the rise in republican sovereignty in Yugoslavia, and the formation of Dardania. Similar to how Saharov's proposed constitution to the Soviet Union in 1989 was used in some reference for the New Union Treaty, I think the politicians would have to tweak it before it became true. But man, I am amazed you have heard about the idea too. Where did you find the flag? I had to go reading threw Serbian books in order to find even the description that Demaci proposed. Here's what I made a while ago, I can't believe how similar they are. Thank you for bringing this up, you made my day ^_^ --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:49, April 10, 2011 (UTC)