User talk:GOPZACK



President Delay Accuracy
President Delay is extremely inaccurate and in some ways a right-wing fantasy. In Other words Rush Limbaugh would love it but everyone else would hate it.--Emanresu11 02:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC).

For one the Republicans seem to have a ridiculously large majority in the Congress and Senate, World War III happens for unrealistic reasons and the disbanding of the Republican party is unrealisticly likely to collapse. Most nations would not even risk a 'skirimish'--Emanresu11 23:32, September 4, 2009 (UTC) Thats ridiculous. Also Harry Reed as vice President especially after the ridiculous and near impossibmle 85% to 15% defat in a reelection campaign. (Come On !)

Naming Conventions
Hi, this is just a reminder to please follow the naming conventions of this wiki. While the main/portal page of the alternate history may be named after the alternate history (for example "President Delay") we ask that any sub-articles be named like so: Hillary Clinton (President Delay). If you have any questions feel free to message me. Mitro 16:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just click on "Move" at the top of the page and follow the directions there. Also when leaving a message on a talk page, don't forget to sign it by using these: ~ Mitro 23:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent articles
Not to sound like I'm attacking your work, but what is the purpose of some of the recent articles you have created in "President Delay" universe? They seem to be just random American politicians. Are each of them important to the Delay TL? Mitro 23:20, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

Cave City
You and Yankovic have my blessing, if you like, to use Cave City in your respective countries.--BrianD 19:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

On Your "Offer"
Excuse me, but what is the point of Tennesee territory without a solid connection? Virginia barely has any border with the state! Why should I or Virginia listen to such a heavy-handed offer. What on earth is wrong with the new home of the 101st reclaiming their old home base? All I want in Kentucky is the fort (100% of it) and a thin stretch of terrtitory to connect it to Virginia proper. If you want me to accept your "offer", you are going to negotiate like our nations would. This attempt to bully me and my nation is making my blood boil. And it would do the same to pretty much any leader. --Yankovic270 04:03, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Patton Museum
You know the Patton Museum in Fort Knox? Would you allow a few "tourists" from Virginia to visit it? --Yankovic270 14:22, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

I confess. I didn't really want to send tourists to the museum. I wanted to send spies to examine the cut-open King Tiger specimen. Now how on earth am I going to get King Tiger blueprints? Deal. What do you want for the blueprints? --Yankovic270 16:55, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Staus of the Cumberland Plateau
I am sorry but you aren't going to get all of Kentucky. The Kentucky portion of the Cumberland plateau has been Virginian territory for quite a while. They probbably think of temselves more as Virginians than Kentuckians. I even plan to make it a state in Virginia. What would be a good:

1. choice for a capital?

2. choice for a governor?

--Yankovic270 14:36, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

You wanted to know Virginia's teritory, well here it is:

West Virginia: The entire state, of course

Virginia: The Fifth, Sixth, and Ninth Congressional districts (as shown by map)



Kentucky: The coloured portion of Kentucky (and grey is not a colour)



New Deal
I want control of the Fort Campbell facility, the right to use it as a training facility for the 101st, and the right to guard the road leading to the facility with Viginian soldiers. I also want the Kentucky-Virginia alliance. --Yankovic270 04:09, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. I enthusiastically support our armies learning to work together. We could becomne an unstoppable force, because as far as I can tell we are the only mechanized nations in the whole of the United States. --Yankovic270 17:29, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Portland, Tennessee
The Portland article was altered recently to show a fear of our nations preventing them from reestablishing Tennessee as a nation. I think we should give them our full support, and help them reclaim the rest of the state. Whether by diplomatic persuasion or brute military force. Personally I am hoping for the latter, because my army has not had any combat experience since the last gang cell was eradicated in '94. Either way, we gain an ally for the Southern Pact/Dixie Accord. --Yankovic270 17:53, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Zack, please see comments on southern United States/Portland/"Southern Pact/Dixie Accord" under General Discussion on the 1983:DD talk page. There are a ton of ideas here that I think are worth exploring.--BrianD 19:13, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Owen1983's edit led to me deciding to have Portland accept the Virginian Republic's offer, with conditions. Since Portland is willing to work with Virginia I see no reason why it wouldn't work with Kentucky. Check the Portland talk page for my vision on the scenario for the region. By the way, enjoy the sights at Mammoth Cave :)--BrianD 16:41, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

You have to understand Zack that Virginia is not involved in Tennessee for territory's sake. It is involved in Tennessee to gain an ally for the Dixie Alliance, and to make iteslf look good for the LoN. the good publicity is so that Virginia could finally be admitted into the LoN. Yankovic270 17:01, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Title Mistake
Hate to seem to be a knitpicker, but you got the Virginian leaders title wrong. It is still President-General. The Virginians may be more democratic, but they still are the heavily militaristic society they allways were. --Yankovic270 18:51, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Cape Girardeau
GOPZACK, if you want to graduate this article you need to follow the. If there are objections to the article they have to be met before the article can be graduated. I generally like your article but you need to explain the leader before I withdraw my objection. Please see the talk page of the article. Mitro 17:43, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Formal Border
I agree because it was the border I wanted all along. And, by the way, I want you to answer some questions about the Virginian state of Cumberland.

1. Who should be the governor? 2. Where should the capital be?

--Yankovic270 18:13, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Could you add the three easternmost counties of Maryland and the southwest corner of Pennsylvania. And is it excessive for me to take the rest of Virginia? --Yankovic270 01:50, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Would it be excessive to take the rest of Maryland as well? --Yankovic270 03:40, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Would it be OK if I changed the national capital of Virginia and the state capital of East Virginia to Richmond? How long would it take to restore the city so it is inhabitable by a small community of government employees? --Yankovic270 03:45, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

By the way I abandoned the claim to North Carolina. --Yankovic270 03:46, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Are we okay to continue working together? I haven't had a single message from you since that oh-so-unfortunate incident. --Yankovic270 16:51, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

As I said before, I also control the rest of Virginia and the Maryland panhandle. And the North Carolina territory is instead a protectorate that Virginia will turn over to Blue Ridge when the area finishes recovering. --Yankovic270 17:08, November 18, 2009 (UTC)



This is the idea I created for the current situation in Ohio.This is the legend.

Nation - Existing Territory - New Additions - Potential Expansion Virginia - Dark Red - Lighter Red - Pink Kentucky - Dark Blue - Lighter Blue - Aqua

What do you think? --Yankovic270 01:10, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

According to the map you created, Ottawa County is on the Virginian side of the dividing line. That, and Adams county was supposed to be split, but I gave Kentucky the whole county. I do not want to fight about it. What county is Kentucky willing to trade with Virginia for Ottawa? (Mind you, I am not trying to sound like a kid swapping trading cards.) It is very valuable, considering it has access to Lake Erie. --Yankovic270 02:21, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Lets make it a straight swap. All of Adams county for Ottawa County. And each of our nations recognizes the Ohio territory of the other. Yankovic270 03:03, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Virginia-Kentucky Expedition to Washington
I like the idea. If there is anything surviving I would like to reconstruct the more famous buildings (the White House, Capitol Building, etc), and make it effectively a massive museum. Except for the caretakers, there wouldn't be any permanent population. It would be effectively a lage memorial to the defunct United States. It would be appropriate that the capital of the United States would serve as its tombstone after it was gone. It serves as a reminder that, despite what the CRUSA thinks, the US is not going to pull a Lazarus anytime soon. --Yankovic270 18:36, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Virginian Flag Contest
I have a polite request. I ask that you judge the flags posted in the "New Virginian Flag" section of the 83:DD talkpage. There are two things I politely ask of you.

1. That you vote on which flag is best, given explanations of their meanings 2. Given that "None of the Above" is not an option, you may create a flag design of your own. I will only accept a few designs, as space is limited.

The reason I am not doing so myself is that I am consumed with indescision. I cannot make a final descision to save my life.

--Yankovic270 22:31, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. And, as the earlier message stated, you can also try your hand at creating flags. If you do want to, you pretty much have to have only one design, due to limit on the space the flag contest can realistically occupy on the talkpage. --Yankovic270 23:15, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Article List
I might suggest that you add that those articles are from the 1983: Doomsday timeline, just to help folks know where your focus of contribution is, Zack - just a comment, in passing. Louisiannan 22:56, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

A Gift
I have an idea of how the Virginian President-General Rockefeller would react to Kentuckian President Bunning stepping down. Since the Kentuckians are extremely close allys of Virginia (plus I imagined Rockefeller and Bunning being friends) he could give Bunning an estate in Virginian Kentucky. Just something to say thanks to the VR's greatest ally. Is this a good idea or not?

Yankovic270 02:16, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

That is just the arrangement I had devised. While we are on the subject of Virginian-Kentuckian relations, we should start the "Dixie Alliance" that I had imagined. Just so you know, when I hear the word "Dixie" I imagine the down-home country charm of the region, as it is the romantic nickname for the region. I imagine this organization helping the LoN restore stability, and with it prosperity, to the region.

Yankovic270 21:33, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Dixie Alliance
The members, aside from Virginia and Kentucky would include Cape Girardeau, Hot Springs, Joplin, Portland, East Tennessee and Blue Ridge. I imagine it expanding to include every state in the former American Southeast. The goals of the alliance are to restore the region to a semblance of the relative prosperity before Doomsday, and to give the states an international political voice they couldn't on their own. If you have any other questions, I politely request that you outline the specifically to mae answerring them simpler.

Yankovic270 22:35, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

It could be simply described as an American version of NATO. There is nothing EU-ish about it. It is a band of nations grouping together to protect each other against aggressors, both native and afar.

Yankovic270 22:41, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Naturally. Not that they would want to leave it, as the Virginians are sure give enough perks and incentives to make it too lucrative to leave.

Yankovic270 20:02, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Raven Rock
That is such a good idea. How about I have the Virginians launch an exploratory mission roughly the time the Dixie Alliance was founded? I could have the Dixie Alliance temorarily use facilities at either Fort Knox or Fort Campbell while Raven Rock is restored, and have them transfer just in time for the 5th aniversary of the founding of the Dixie Alliance. Something makes me think that if this facility was built to withstand a nuclear war, it can certainly stand the test of time with very little damage. Especially if it was sealed up sometime after Doomsday, like a time capsule. After all, look at the bunkers built by Nazi Germany during WWII. Their tech may have been forty years behind the tech of Doomsday, but most still survive, and relatively intact. If WWII bunkers can still survive to the present day, then Raven Rock will definitely survive. And it would be a simple matter to restore it to fully operating status.

Yankovic270 18:28, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

How about the former Weston Hospital instead housing the Southern Free Trade Agreement, the economic part of the Dixie Alliance.

Yankovic270 22:02, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Collaborating on a Timeline
Dittos GOPZACK,

I loved your 'President DeLay' timeline, I am a big fan of Rush, Tom, Mike Pence, and Michelle Bachmann as well.

I was hoping you might be interested in collaborating on two timelines I have adopted; The Disunited States of America, and President Kemp.

If so please send me as message at your convenience.

Best Regards,

Bill Potter, 11:33(EST), March 15, 2010

Everglades
Sure thing GOPZACK, I would like to work on the Everglades survivor nation. Arstarpool 03:04, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Although I like the idea, I think some major border adjustments should be done to include less of the east coast and more of the Everglades. The Everglades should mainly be on the far Southwest side of the penninsula. Good pic tho. I also think we should change the name to something more suitable, rather than the same old republic. I like Everglades Territory, as someone else suggested, or maybe South Florida Territory. A third option could be: Republic of the Everglades or Municipal Province of the Everglades. I donno, I could use some insight on name recomendations. Arstarpool 03:16, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you're not getting this, but the Everglades is on the WEST side of South Florida, look where the land looks very untouched. Homestead is on the MID-EAST part of Florida. Miami is one the East side. Arstarpool 21:53, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Rome
Hey GOPZACK, I was wondering if you or anyone else on the wiki could help me with a survivor nation I made near Rome. I have titled it New Rome (1983: Doomsday). Please leave me a message if you know of anyone who could help me with this.

Red areas are destroyed areas with high radiation, light red are moderatley radiated and moderatley damaged, while yellow areas could be suitable for habitation. Arstarpool 20:44, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Should we still work on this article? I have found myself occupied with other articles throughout the althist, and I assume the same from you. Arstarpool 00:49, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

I know I have asked this several times, and I am sorry if I sound rude, but, do you still take any interest in the article? If not, then I may resort to throwing it to the wolves in favor of another article. Arstarpool 23:49, May 20, 2010 (UTC) Could you help me in finishing off this article? Originally it was a collaboration, but I ended up doing up almost all the work, haha. I either want to get it in shape for graduation, or scrap it in favor for Tuscany. Arstarpool 17:14, May 23, 2010 (UTC)



Marcus Island
SorryVegas adict 19:11, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

North Florida
Since the "creator" of North Florida has retreated, leaving us to do what we want with the area, what are your plans for the area? I think that Tallahassee is out. Listed as a tertiary target, it is also the capital of arguably the most important state in the deep south. In OTL it is a pivotal connection with the intrenational turmoil in the Carribean.

Perryz has visions of grandeur for the area which seem overly optimistic (to say the least). North Florida needs to be pared back as was South Florida. I am comfortable with the present boundaries, but any further expansion is probably still a long way away. SouthWriter 16:11, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, Zack, I see you're paying attention to the article. Do you think you can that we can work on getting this in shape for graduation?SouthWriter 23:09, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Zack, Perryz gave me the option of pulling the plug. I was actually the person whom he first discussed making the page with, but seeing your part and effort you put in, I'm just going to run it by you. Should he not respond to the most recent message I have left him, It shall be purged within 24 hours. Arstarpool 05:59, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Zack, I don't know if you are getting this. I was given authority of the article from ITS CREATOR. Essentially, I am now the official caretaker. I marked it obsolete because it has outlived its usefulness and purpose. The only way I will allow to go on as a proposal is if you rename it, and no more "North Florida" crap. Arstarpool 16:27, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

I have an idea that will get me to shut up: rename it. Someone had hinted at civilization in the north of Florida called "Appalachiacola". Rather than keeping on working on two identical republics, than a little bit of difference will get me to appreciate the article. I had already had plans to rename "my" Florida the Federation of South Florida, but I wanted to run it by you first. So here are my ideas:

Republic of Appalachiacola (North Florida)

Federation of the Everglades, Federation of South Florida, Republic of South Florida (South Florida)

Get back to me on which one we should change, and remember to write my name back in under North Florida on your userpage.Arstarpool 17:11, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana
Hey GOPZACK I have started a nation just above you, in northern Indiana called Republic Of Indiana, and if we could get some type of diplomatic talks in the future, it would be nice.Perryz101 20:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think they would join some way or another, due to Kentucky being a power house in the area. When Kentucky took Southern Indiana and began guarding the area would of be ok, due to the chaos at the time, but they may want it back, after all the area is still populated by Hoosiers.Perryz101 20:57, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * How are we going to split Indianapolis blast-zone, Is Kentucky getting it or Indiana.?Perryz101 03:51, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, Indiana can join.Perryz101 10:56, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

So, is the Dixie Alliance going to allow Indiana join, or is it being voted on?Perryz101 22:42, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Gainseville
I recently made some changes to the TV and Radio stations section; I highly doubt that a small republic like that would have 9 radio stations and 6 TV stations. Also, what's a population estimate on the area? By adding the abundance of areas Perryz initially claimed I got a number of 500,000, and thats from the 1980 census. Get back to me, because I'm starting to take interest in the article I once so deeply hated. Arstarpool 03:53, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'll be sure to write up a summary next time I edit. I've made up my mind I am going to hop the canonization train on this one, so if you could write me in as a contributer to the article on your userpage that would be good so that I do not have to inform you of every single edit I make. Sorry if I get a bit impatient sometimes, I know I've asked that twice already, but I have a bad habit of wanting to get credit for everything I do. Arstarpool 04:03, May 24, 2010 (UTC)"

We finally got it canonized! Good on ya, mate!Arstarpool 02:50, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

RE, RE:WTF
Thanks for that!--HAD 14:31, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Some Help
I need help putting up a Doomsday article for Swaziland and would like it if you help me get me started and make the page (not write info, just help put up the article) since I dont know how to put the proposal message on the top of the page. BlackSkyEmpire 02:06, June 5, 2010 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Never mind BlackSkyEmpire 02:31, June 5, 2010 (UTC)BlackSkyEmpire

Re: Respect
And what event are you specifically referring to? If you are talking about Ocelot, he has spammed, and more than 3 people have agreed that he should be permantently banned. The guy made 7 articles with the exact same information, only to hope one would get canonized. He blanked out the PUSA, and wrote that the American people had reunited completely within 1 week in Seattle. Even after all of that, I NEVER said anything rude to the guy. If you are talking about Sunkist, we worked things out. I had to explain to him that it was established canon that South Africa had collapsed, with no apparent succesor.

Zack, One thing I would ask of you in the future is DO NOT ACT LIKE AN ADMIN. Do not go around telling people how to treat other people. I can have Brian or Louis do that to me. You are a normal contributor, so do not act like you are one of the more revered members of the wiki in order to gain face with the the newbies. I would understand if this had directly gotten in

the way of something you were doing, but this is just you flaunting the power you do not have. In the future, I will take your advice and be kinder to the newer members. Arstarpool 03:09, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

For one thing, I find it extremely rude to tell someone "they are like Hitler". That is not only rude to me but is an insult to my family's ethnic background, who lost many a brother to making sure that has regime collapsed.

How do I act like an admin again? Do I canonize my own articles? Do I attempt to block other members? Do I blank out other people's work? Have I made an important descision that has changed the fate of the althist? No, I do not canonize my own articles, I make suggestions to "people in higher places" to block other members, I do not blank out other peoples work, I only correct spelling errors they might have left, and no, I have not made any major decisions using solely my own power. So no, I do not act like an admin.

Please tell me how I have handled my California article? Me and Yank sweated bullets on that one, and every error that was brought up was changed.

In the future, leave a message I have left unedited. I chose to edit the message I left because I realized that I had overeacted.

20:17, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Did I ever call you or think you are this "evil administrator"? No, all I said is it is kind of bothering how you take responsibilities that normally belong to the higher members. And as for your claim that I think that things run on "newbies" here, I do not think that. I am not the Perryz or the Sunkist of the Wiki, not that there is anything wrong with them, but I have been here even longer than I have had a Wiki account. And if that still makes me a "newbie" (which by the way, I do not know why you continue to use that word like if I used it all the time"), is there a true difference that separates a "newbie" from a newer member? No, there is not.

Arstarpool 20:45, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

East Carribean Federation
Established canon is that East Florida has been a spot of interest for the ECF. South Florida is its economic ally, not thinking of joining. These are not my ideas, but they are canon. Arstarpool 23:17, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Canada
Certainly, go right ahead. --DarthEinstein 23:12, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Image request
I have a bit of a request to ask of you. Could you please photoshop an image of a civil-war era union soldier holding an AK-47? I don't have the time, skill or tools required for such a task.

Yankovic270 00:50, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Proposals
Right now I am trying to mow down most of the proposals and get them either into canon or into the Recycle Bin. If you have the time, please go through our current proposals and help me sort out which ones are getting into canon and which ones aren't. Arstarpool 01:19, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Would you mind if I made some template corrections to Norfolk Island? Arstarpool 18:13, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Kentucky History
Hey, Zack. I made a couple grammatical changes to the History of Kentucky page, if that's fine with you. Arstarpool 22:08, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

ASAP Mediation
Can you mediate between an argument between me and Vene, fellow TSPTF comrade? I think that if I say one more thing to him I will get myself banned, so please help out or send someone else to help out. Arstarpool 00:11, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

florida
why is it so important to mention the University of Florida and the Devil rays. This is a post appoctolyptic world. Why would it matter?

Well whoever you are, we tend to mention a few small notable things like the University of Florida that are in the area. --GOPZACK 02:13, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Wasteland Europe
Hey, if you can, could you help me out with Wasteland Europe? Feel free to expand it, because it is an open timeline afterall. Arstarpool 21:56, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Central World
Hi could you help me expand Central World, I'm trying to turn it into a community project. Please Answer Me. VENEZUELA 22:38, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

please answer. VENEZUELA 02:30, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

IRC
This is sort of an IM thing that Smallpox and Vegas found, I checked it out and it's pretty cool.

Go to http://webchat.freenode.net/

write your nickname

type "wikia_ah" (remove quotation marks) in the channel box

enter, and party.

Pass it on.

BoredMatt 14:29, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

PS me and EE found the layout a bit confusing, you type in the text bar at the bottom of the screen.

Graduating Articles
I advice you that before you go on a graduation spree, make sure to keep the rest of VENEZUELA's articles on the causcaus on the proposal list because a lot of them may get drastically changed soon. Arstarpool 23:36, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

That was....harsh. Arstarpool 23:44, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

California
What is it with you always marking my works as proposals after they have been graduated? Don't feed me this shit-story of "this is the way we do it around here" because I have only seen this happen one other time since March. My article was graduated. GRADUATED. It does not matter if his came first. Mine is canon and Fx's is not. I am just asking for Californian lands, and me and Yank are only defending that, while Fx is taking up 99% of Nevada and even California. He has gotten into three, yes three arguments over borders. I'm sorry if I am coming across as a douche-bag but I am only defending my canon work. You should have brought it up when it was a proposal. Arstarpool 06:11, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

The reason Prussia was reviewed is because it was an atrocity. This is NOT an atrocity, nor it is a work of art, but how did I sneak it in when nobody was looking? It was on the site when everyone was still active, so that is bull crud on your part. Is this how "Lieutenant Zack" is supposed to act? "Constable Ars" should not act like this either, but I have stated that I am done, not the argument. You in fact, are the prime motivator on my "ego trip", as you have one of the worst goddamn attitudes as well, my friend.

Bloody, infamous article? Show some respect, Lieutenant. This is not the place to have your anger session.

I do not wish to "destroy one of the best articles on the wiki". While I am not a fan of the nation, I only wish my article to remain intact.

I am also at a disatvantage in this argument, with me and Yank on one side, and South, FX, and you,on the other, although your irate personality counts as two people.

I have requested a one-on-one solution between me and Fx. You, Yank, South, and whatever other mammal involved in this matter will stay out, okay? Arstarpool 07:04, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Why do you and South continue to ramble on and on about me? I stated I was done arguing, and you say it is not over, but when Fx requests it, he gets his full respect and the opportunity to get up and out. Arstarpool

So are you done your anger section here? Fx has denied you the one on one solution its in the hands of the brass. If they like the mediation idea I'll see you then. Until then I'm not responding to anything else you have to say regarding this issue. --GOPZACK 16:39, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Alex
This is not "private," so I will be brief. Let us, like FXgentleman, leave constable Ars to his rantings. His request for one-on-one with Fx has been denied anyway, so it is all in the hands of the Brass now. Good luck in your mediation efforts.

If Alex loses, though, what will become of his other work on the wiki? The Brass has authority just on 83DD but all across the wiki. The young man is rather reasonable over at the time line he created (Wasteland Europe), though his POD and consequences thereof are harder to guage there. SouthWriter 15:05, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean if I "lose"? Arstarpool 15:37, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

This is getting a little tedious, Alex. I will put this here, and on Zack's page as well. This is in arbitration, you are not in charge of that arbitration, but only one of the parties of the dispute. If you do not go along, you are in danger of being banned from the whole wiki. It is not hard to settle this if you will work with others. FXgentlelman has stated that he will not communicate directly with you, so the best you can do is go through Zack, who has graciously agreed to mediate an equitable settlement. SouthWriter 03:11, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Who decided that I am so close to being banned? Arstarpool 03:14, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

No one "decided" anything. I was just giving you some advice about how things work in the real world. You are acting childish and I, as an adult, am trying to calmly explain things to you. You have been offered a chance to get a settlement favorable to both sides, but nothing can advance until you "come to the bargaining table" with someone who has agreed to listen to both sides.

You have "lost control" of the situation, and it is in the hands of others now. Accept this and you might just get more than you expect. If not, you might lose what you have worked to obtain. This is not a "warning" from me, for I am not in charge here. Take my advice, or not. I hope to see you at the arbitration. SouthWriter 03:27, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

The Dispute
Me and South are taking care of it real time at http://webchat.freenode.net/. Under the channel put "wikia_ah_dispute". I promise you I will not let my temper go, but please do the same. Arstarpool 17:20, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I went there, and Alex was a no show. However, I pulled up my desktop version of Google earth and made this map following the peaks of the Sierra Nevada mountains. The map doesn't take any of California's valuable farmland but does retain ALL of Lake Tahoe. I think something like these lines would have been established between civilized adults after doomsday. However, an incorporation of the full counties in California would not break the spirit of the Sierra Nevada Union and would actually provide much needed farmland for the large population centered around Lake Tahoe. SouthWriter 21:38, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Look at the map I gave to FX. I gave him all of the disputed lands except for those around Placer and pasts of Alpine. Arstarpool 22:23, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I looked at it. I doubt if FX did, since he unilaterally shut you out until hearing back from the Brass. I'm pretty sure Zack so it as well, and I am sure it will be taken into consideration. I did this map after seeing yours. Though I think a smaller "Nevada" would be fine with his article, it is not necessary. You will need to keep in mind that any encroachment on the shores of Lake Tahoe would probably not happen. The "bulge" into California loops around the mountains surrounding Lake Tahoe. Your map claims the Northwest shore as Californian. SouthWriter 01:33, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

The smaller Nevada would be necessary, since the area is also in a very bad dispute with Utah. And as for the small "encroachment" on the shores of Lake Tahoe, that, and a small portion of Alpine County was all I asked.


 * Indentions tend to disappear, so I'll try a bullet. We'll get to this "around the table" (Yank and I having been invited as support on opposing sides). The discussion will probably begin below this section, so I'll withhold comment until then. SouthWriter 02:59, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

In an unrelated, more "neutral" event, I have made Yank a caretaker to the South Florida article after a series of complications regarding the Keys. Arstarpool 02:14, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I commented over at Yank's talk page on this.SouthWriter 02:59, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

SNU Mediation
Gopzack: I have been offline for a day, taking a break from this craziness. As such, I just saw your message. Let me say upfront, I have no desire whatsoever in arguing with Mr. A. In fact I always thought the business of the SNU western borders was a resolved subject some time ago and the extreme response from him on this has floored me. Thanks for agreeing to mediate and hopefully we can end this silliness.

My basic argument is this. Even in this day and age the Sierra Nevada’s (SN) can be a rugged and formidable barrier. Planes frequently vanish in this area, the few roads can be become easily blocked by heavy snows which occur in fall, winter, and spring (note: DD at the beginning of fall.) In the absence of the modern world as we would see post DD, the region is going to be relegated to the same conditions which existed in the mid-1800s. The most immediate concerns to areas east of the mountains whether they are eastern portions of El Dorado, and Placer Counties, CA and or NV, would be preserving resources and maintaining safety and security, vis-à-vis, establish a secure border. Especially so, given the refugees who would be fleeing from strikes in the Sacramento and San Francisco-Oakland areas and the lawless elements which would arise (i.e. gangs, raiders, escaped criminals from Folsom Prison). It has already been established via the MSP article the chaos and crime which gripped areas of northern CA. As such, I don’t’ think it would be too much a stretch to think the same conditions existed in the central regions. I think it would be only logical the NV government would offer to work with the aforementioned areas and they would acquiesce given the overall situation, working together to share resources and block the few access points through the mountains to protect themselves. Once the chaos died down in the future and someone, say the CR, sent people through the SN to explore, and if SNU troops didn’t turn them around, they would find a region more closely aligned to NV than CA.

As such, those areas of eastern El Dorado and Placer would be vital to the security and safety of the SNU and are fundamental to my article. I have no interest whatsoever in anything regarding these counties west of the SN. I included parts of Alpine and Mono, given I felt SNU troops would move into those areas over time, say 1984-85, in an attempt to patrol the mountains to stop elements getting through and build forts. I feel they would find few people, who would welcome relief from raids. So, I would be willing to acquiesce regarding those areas if it will quell this disagreement. The best way to describe my borders in regards to CA is to imagine an area just north of Highway 80 running west to the SN and along the mountains to around Mono Lake and swinging back to the old NV border. I do need to note two things I discovered when I re-reviewed my article. I inadvertently made my map larger than I meant to in regard to CA and intended to terminate it around Mono Lake. Secondly, I apparently misunderstood a county map of CA when I wrote my article. Both my map and article includes an area, Route 80, which I thought was part of Placer, when in fact it is in Nevada County. Therefore I will need to identify a small part of this country as being part of the SNU and put it in the same category as El Dorado and Placer in its level of importance. I apologize for the verbiage but this is my thoughts on the subject. Please let me know if you need more from me. --Fxgentleman 18:23, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

 My argument: 

As I originally created my nation during a time when the map had not yet been placed on the SNU. I had no idea when I originally created the first version of what is now the CR that there was another nation who had already claimed part of California. However, doing further research, I eventually figured out that Fx had listed the claimed Californian counties on the SNU page, so I am at fault. However, I have stated below why I do not wish to relinquish Californian lands to the Sierra Nevada Union.

My argument to why I would like all but Mono County is that the lands under SNU control are in a close proximity to the Provisional State Government in Placerville, dozens of miles away from the rest of El Dorado County, Placer, and Alpine. With the state roads still functioning, such said mountains would be little an obstacle to traveling from one county to the other. While the closely knit-together counties in California were concentrating on survival, Nevada would be doing such same and would have little to "share". How Nevada currently controls nearly all of their former state today still baffles me. Further more, what would this "border" of the SN mountains protect them from? An established civilization in Placerville? Anyways, the proximity of the "capital" of California is actually at a vantage point to reaching the other sides of the mountains. Why would they use such mountains as barriers when in fact the low population of the area would pose little to no threat to Nevada. Instead, they might reinforce their state borders to prevent any intrusions, whereas one unguarded road in the Sierra Nevada mountains while the SNU is concentrating on the main highway could allow entire caravans of raiders and other rejects of society into Nevada to raise hell. Furthermore, you stated that even in the modern day planes get lost in the area. How would criminals be able to pass through the area without getting lost themselves, or even worse, the Sierra Nevada Army while attempting to establish control in the area? So couldn't they just destroy such roads leading into Nevada?

If Nevada is portrayed as the "Most Arid State in the Union", then why would refugees, criminals, gangs, or other undesirables go waltzing into what could have very well be an arid, radiated desert wasteland? California would in fact take the sword to the chest if they controlled the disputed areas, using their own military to eradicate such criminals before they entered Nevada. Thus, the Sierra Nevadans may rest peacefully in their desert state while the Californians take care of the dirty work on the borders, if, that is, any trouble does make it through the California Republic behind the SN mountains. Their encroaching onto Californian land may one day cause trouble once both nations have established themselves. The Lake Tahoe region may act as a buffer zone between the two, as I intend to keep at least South Lake Tahoe for aviation and economic purposes. Alpine County on the other hand, acts as a barriers within itself, the extreme temperatures in the region, sparse population, and lack of roads essentially saves itself from being taken over by Sierra Nevada.

To say, I am at a loss on what to do. If I must, I am willing to cede all of Mono County, parts of Nevada County, and the Lake Tahoe region except for South Lake Tahoe region immediately, already on the California Republic's map. Arstarpool 22:08, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your arguments FXgentleman and Arstarpool, I will be reviewing your arguments, looking over the maps and such. I will hopefully find a reasonable solution by Tuesday. I'm sorry if this seems like a long time but I want my decision to be as fair and as accurate plus I'll be busy on the weekend so I don't want to rush to judgment. If you have anything you'd like to add to help solidify your respective cases post them here anytime. GOPZACK 23:00, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal

Gopzack: I do wish to offer a limited rebuttal regarding Mr. A's statement. (1) I posted my article on 2/18/2010 to the proposal section, where it has since been. I clearly outlined my western borders at that time in my article. The article for the CR did not appear about 4/27/2010. Mr. A raised no objections anywhere I am aware of until 5/26 when another writer suggested graduation of my article. (2) The situation in central CA would be chaotic at best well into 1984 and would impact the efforts of any government to function, let alone extend its authority over something as large as the SN. The nuclear strikes aside, the situation would not be a pretty one. Radioactive fallout from Sacramento, SF-Oakland, and other targets would be deposited on areas west of the mountains by winds. Placerville I note is only forty some odd miles away from Sacramento and in the path of fallout. Refugees, many sick, would stream from targeted sites and inundate the areas in question, clog roads, and overwhelm the little existing infrastructure. They would bring disease and other health related problems. A breakdown of law and order would be inevitable under these conditions. Electricity would be out and phone service dead. Given these factors would be Herculean to deal with, it seems improbable even if a government managed to arise and stabilize to a point beyond a city or county level, could find time to address all these problems and logically extend control to areas on the other side of the mountains. In the meantime, the Carson-Reno-Lake Tahoe areas would be far more stable (within the confines of what might pass for stable post DD) and more likely to band together to work for survival and to protect themselves from others. (3) From what I gather, Mr. A may not be as familiar with the SN area as I am. Just because the roads would be functioning does not necessarily mean easy access or linkage through the mountains. I have been to the area and seen how easily they can be blocked, especially when it snows. (4) Lastly, I wanted to address the concerns several people have raised in the last few days over the SNU borders and how they felt they were to large. The map I posted was meant to represent suggested or approximate borders as of 2010. I had planned to explain in my history how it got that way but I never got the chance. I never once believed there would be such a thing as firm borders, given they can be such porous things. I have been to NV many times and know from what I have seen the borders I made could not be strictly enforced, which was why I created the military to patrol them. However, mountain ranges make good borders when you block the few key roads going through them. This makes it harder for large groups to move through, although small groups could via trails or small roads. Additionally, I would like to note I have been in discussion with two senior writers about revising my borders (and overall nation size) to the east based on their concerns. This is the main reason my article has been in proposal for so long. Based on our discussions I had already agreed to shrink my borders as they applied to NV specifically. We are working out the details right now. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 03:06, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Counter-Statement

Ah, I see you did not read my entire statement above. I will respond to your statements then.

(1) I clearly stated that I found out that you had posted the borders before you posted the map, so I admit fault on that matter.

(2) As for the radiation issue, you seem to be caught in a Catch 22. If there was a large attack on Sacramento, that would mean more fallout, but less refugees. If there was a smaller attack, the fallout would not reach Placeville, but there would be more refugees. Either way, Placerville is spared of one atrocity, but cursed with another. And contrary to what you may think, Nevada would suffer as well! With the collapse of trade, no working cars, no electricity (all the product of an EMP that eliminated all electricity throughout the 48 mainland states), food would be harder to find except out in the countryside, meaning more chaos in the cities. If you yourself admitted that the Lake Tahoe area was "stable", then why would they bother running off to Sierra Nevada for help when they themselves were going fine? Their distance to Placerville is less than 50 miles as well, so there would be little trouble accessing the "stable" region. I fear that I have check-mated you on that matter, Fx"Gentleman".

(3) As for your statement that I do not know much on the area, this nation is the product of 2 people, remember, both of whom have done research on the area. The freezing over of roads was something that came to my attention, but remember that this would be a problem for Nevada when they are "claiming" the area as well! Remember that many of the disadvantages that apply to California will apply to Nevada, so do not be quick to assume that Carson City is a desert "haven" away from fallout, lack of electricty, violence, etc.

(4) This is not my problem, as all I want is the Californian lands, but I agree that the borders should be shrunk down to a more appropriate size. I posted a picture on your talk page on what I believe to be a good border, but I assume you have yet to see it since you are incommunicado with me.

Arstarpool 04:01, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

State College and Pennsylvania
Can I use State College in the ? Arstarpool 18:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I meant like "contact" and trade and other things like that. Arstarpool 18:47, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I also realized we have the exact same flag, coa, and motto for both of our countries... Arstarpool 19:27, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oh in since you are the caretaker for Canada as well, could I write that Canada fully supports Pennsylvania's decision to return the "temporary" colony in Ontario to Canada once they regain control in the area? Arstarpool 19:32, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hugo and Waynesboro
I have just gotten your message. Does this fit your needs? The red waves at the bottom symbolize the Red River.



I am attempting to come up with something for Waynesboro right now. It is a tad more difficult than the other. Hopefully, I'll have something for you by tonight.