Talk:Soviet Union (New Union)

Member states
I've created the pages on Siberia, Ural and the Far East. Nothing radical, just what was established. If you have something important to add to them by all means do it. I'd like to ask, wether any other countries have expressed interest in joining the union. Would Mongolia be a prime candidate? I also saw that Afghanistan is marked light red on the main map. Does that mean it will bein their sphere of influence once again? Also, is the Manchurian movement canon now? And do you think that the Uyghurs in Xinjiang could start to organize an armed resistance to the Chinese and be in favor of joining the USSR? I now the USSR and China are allies, but nothing is stopping the smaller nationalities to express their desires.--Vladivostok 12:22, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's pretty funny that you mentioned it, because I have been thinking about that too. I am even considering doing a page all about the potential expansion of the USSR. As for the several states you have mentioned, let me tell you what I have in mind.


 * Afghanistan: The Afghan-Soviet relations has been strained since the end of the Soviet-Afghan war. During the Taliban rule, pro-Soviet leaders and rebels emerged promoting the USSR invading Afghanistan once again and creating a Soviet Republic. When the USA invaded the country to eradicate the Taliban, the pro-Soviet sentiment diminished a little with the hopes of democracy. But Afghanistan is still a prime target for Soviet expansion.
 * Mongolia: The region is no longer communist and is considered a Free Country (the same as in OTL). However, the nation continues to have a strong Soviet alliance and cooperation. Mongolia is another likely target for membership.
 * China: There are movements within China which promote the separate nationalities (Manchurs and Uyghurs for example) getting out of the tight, centralized control of the Han Chinese, and gain sovereignty within the Soviet Union. The USSR neither supports or endorses these movements within China, in order to keep a strong relations with the PRC. However, there are several movements in China for it to join the USSR as a whole. Similar to how Russia split apart to equalize its citizens, it could happen to China.


 * I might make a page about it soon. I have several ideas on this. —NuclearVacuum 16:54, March 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I look forward to what you will write. I'd just like to say that Mongolia would probably be the first to join, as it is more stable than Afghanistan and China won't give up its territory that easily, while Mongolia is its own country and stable. And bare in mind, they don't have to be future members. A lot can happen in nearly 20 years.--Vladivostok 17:16, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me guess, you really want Mongolia to be a member, don' you. =P —NuclearVacuum 18:05, March 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blast, I've revealed myself to soon. Your right, but don't forget Uyghuristan.:-D
 * It would be nice to have all the "-stans" in one place.=)--Vladivostok 18:10, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

LOLZ! That's funny. I would love to make Mongolia a republic of the Soviet Union. Just give me a little bit to come up with the background for it, and the will be a Soviet Republic. Also, Uyghuristan? I never knew that there was a name for that region already. I was thinking about calling it Druganestan, after the Soviet term for the people in the region. But either way, this region can't be a part of the USSR, at least not now. But you never know. Also, if you have any radical ideas like that, just let me know. After hearing about Mongolia and Srpska, I think I would like to hear what else you have for me. —NuclearVacuum 18:14, March 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there is this one idea. It involves a monkey, two bananas and a tricycle. Oh, you mean for the TL... Khm, moving on, I refered to the region by the name Uyghuristan as it states on Wikipedia that it is called like that, but it is one of many names. The ideas I spoke of actually come from past experience. As you can see in the following articles:Uyghuristan, Socialist Siberia. I have a few questions regarding the structure of the Union. They obviously have a joint constitution, military, president and joint foreign affairs. But is their a joint Parliament/Assembly/Duma? Are the Ministry of Defense and of Foreign Affairs on a Unionwide level? And where does the Soviet Space Agency fit into the story? Is the Communist Party still a strong component in the Union. I see it is not in power anymore, but is it the principle opposition party? And where does the Union Party lean? Obviously there are no intenal borders between Union members, but is there a Schengen-esque Agreement in place? I don't know much about Viktor Yanukovych, but would he really have such suport from most of the citizens of the Union to become president?
 * Wow, too many questions. But I have a couple of ideas, regarding space exploration. I think that a join NASA-SKA venture could finish the International Space Station faster than in OTL. Maybe even restart manned trips to the Moon. Maybe the Soviets could revive the Buran project or create a different vessel with the same name. And on an unrelated note, are all the inner workings of the European Union exactly the same as OTL?--Vladivostok 19:06, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * WOW... that's a lot of questions. Let's see if I can answer them all. First off, I didn't mean I was planing on naming the region something else, I meant I didn't know it already had a name like that. I swear, I think I have heard of "Uyghuristan" before... *thinks harder* oh well. I do think Uyghuristan would make an excellent republic of the USSR. However, the USSR and the PRC are very close allies. So the USSR's overall involvement in these regions would be minimal. I think they would take a large step back, but would not take their eyes off the prize.


 * To be honest, I am making it up as I go along (the Soviet structure that is). The only way I can describe it is, the USSR is like the EU, but with a more tighter control of federalism. Meaning, it is a single country, but where the republics are allowed several sovereign rights. I like to think of it as there being two kinds of laws in the USSR: "Sovereign laws" and "Union laws." Sovereign laws are laws passed by the republics, which can vary greatly from the others. While Union laws are union wide. The borders between the republics is not too different than in the USA.


 * I am still working on it, but I predict that the USSR would be run by a "Union Assembly" (much like the Federal Assembly in OTL). It is a bicameral legislature, with the lower house being the "State Duma," and the upper house being the "State Soviet." It would form roughly the same way as in OTL.


 * Viktor Yanukovych, excellent question. Well, I came across him by chance, but after reading about him, I think he would make an excellent President of the Soviet Union. You see, I was trying to find out how many years in office the President of the USSR was allowed to serve. I couldn't find it anywhere, no direct answer. So I decided to go through all the former Soviet republics in OTL to find out what the average was. Most of them have a five year term, so I decided to use that. That would make it much easier to determine how long they would stay in office. So that would mean the next presidential election in the USSR (in which Putin would constitutionally obligate to leave) is in 2010. I wanted the President to be non-Russian at the moment (since the USSR is now much more open). Ironically, the elections for Ukrainian President were happening just as I was searching, and it was a large race for them. I decided which one of them would win, would be the USSR president. Yanukovych won, and I think he would make an excellent choice. He has a similar agenda to that of Putin. One of the reasons Medvedev got elected is because Putin backed him up. Well I have confidence that Putin would back Yanukovych up.


 * Buran??? OMFG... why didn't I think of that? I am a huge space enthusiast. I have read a lot about the Buran program, and am reading about the Klipper. That is such a good idea. You aren't reading my mind are you? Yes, I can see it now. Instead of canceling the program in 1993, Gorbachev renewed it and the program would continue. There would be fleet of them (much like the Shuttle program of the US), and the USSR and USA will create the ISS in record time. I still think Columbia should happen, but with the USSR having a shuttle program, the ISS could still be finished maybe a year late (2006). —NuclearVacuum 02:21, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, I know, I have my moments of shear genius. And yes, I am reading your mind. Now, that isn't too awkward for you, is it? The ISS would naturally have the whole shebang. No modules being scrapped for cutting costs. And the Crew Return Vehicle project would bear fruit.
 * So, State Duma and State Soviet, which is which? Which one represents the republics, and which one is directly elected by the people? And I was thinking on creating pages for the various Central Asian states. I'm moving from east to west with the republics and would really like to know do the Communist Party and Unionist Party dominate politics in the republics as they do on a Unionwide level?
 * Wait a second. There are two main political parties, two Assemblies, the territory is cut up into smaller states so it can be ruled more easily... Hmm, where have I seen this before? Or am I reading too much into this?;-D
 * Oh and when I was reading something regarding Finland on Wikipedia, I came across information that stated it was heavily influenced by the Soviet Union(and still is by Russia). I think that this could endanger its involvement in the European Union, as it joined after the USSR fell apart, and might perhaps make Norway join in stead.--Vladivostok 06:43, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have nothing wrong with you reading my mind... just don't read my mind between six o'clock and 7 o'clock, that is my sexy time. =P Anyway, I was thinking about the Buran program lately and I thought about something. TTL has nothing it can do about Challenger, and I believe Columbia should still happen. Should one of the Buran shuttles have an event or accident, even if it were a minor event? I have an idea how it has an accident but comes out of it with the crew alive and well.
 * The State Duma is like the State Duma in OTL, while the State Soviet is the Federation Council. I wanted to do this because in Russia, the Federation Council is called the Federal Soviet (if you read it carefully). As for the political parties (sorry, I forgot to answer that one), the Communist Party is still a major party. But the current leading party is the party (something like the United Russia in OTL), with Putin and Yanukovych being part of it. I still think it is too soon to determine if the USSR is a two party state (like the USA), but these two are very popular.
 * As for Finland, I do believe that the USSR would have strong relations with Finland, but I don't believe it would be strong enough to have Finland back down from gaining EU membership. If Finland gains membership during the Gorbachev administration, than there should be nothing for good ol' Finland to worry about. I think the USSR would have to worry more about the Baltic states and Moldova. The EU would be the exact same in TTL and in OTL. The only differences is that Czechia and Slovakia is one nation (Czechoslovakia) and Moldova (excluding Transnistria) is merged into Romania much like how the two Germanys were merged together. Croatia and Macedonia (along with Turkey) will be the current candidate and may join the EU by the end of the decade.


 * I have also been thinking about what you said about dividing Russia up. I am now considering making those new republics (excluding Caucasia) as autonomous republics within the Russian Federation. I still need to work on it a little, but what do you think? —NuclearVacuum 15:41, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well now, the image of sexy time will forever haunt me now.xD Anyway,you pretty much know where I stand on the issue of dividing Russia into republics. Autonomous republics in a Russian Federation would work better I think. A federation in a bigger confederation, why not? We would also have to list the OTL autonomous oblasts, of course, no reason to have them abolished TTL. But I assume you would leave the pages already written, just change the the names into autonomous republics? As I've said, I am all for a united Russia, I don't see any problem in making the districts into autonomous republics.

I'll be honest about the EU thing, I was really hoping it would have Croatia in it as well, but unfortunately, I doubt the politics of my nation would be so deeply impacted by these global changes.

I see no problem in having an accident with the Buran, but how would these men survive. Oh, and on a side note, the Buran has the capability to carry payloads to the Moon: Would a lunar mission be a possibility? The current Russian plans for the successor to the ISS is the Orbital Piloted Assembly and Experiment Complex. Sure the plans do call for it to leave the ISS around 2015/2020, but still, could they use the existing modules on the bigger and better ISS of this timeline in order to reach the Moon by the end of the past decade?--Vladivostok 19:13, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well as I currently think of it, the federal districts will become autonomous republics. The autonomous republics already located within them will become something like autonomous-autonomous republics (I don't know it there is a name already out for something like that, maybe an "autonomous okrug," but anyway), while the rest would retain their original status. The only difference is that the Caucasus Emirate in OTL will be administered as a full republic (the ). Though I strongly disagree that the USSR would continue to divide the nation based on ethnics, but I do agree that this area may stabilize if it were to gain full sovereignty.


 * I am so sorry, I guess I did miss some of your questions (my bad). Well, I support going back to the Moon (I am the only one in my family that believes the Moon landings were actually done), but I doubt that TTL will have overall resources to get to the Moon any faster than in OTL. But I am open to new ideas. Can you explain your ideas with a little bit more detail? —NuclearVacuum 18:00, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the inner parts of these autonomous repbulics would continue to bare the names they currently have in the districts, so okrugs, krais,oblasts and so on. I forgot to mention that I liked the whole idea of Moscow being a federal town, I'd definately want to role with that idea. As for the Moon, well it was just a thought, and I have a couple of ideas, but they are not based very firmly on anything, but let me give it a go. As Buran could (in theory anyways) carry a 200 ton payload, why not a lunar lander. Unfortunately I don't know if that sort of thing is doable. As I said, it was a thought, since the whole ISS would be done much faster, the Soviets could work on other goals in space. But, I think I'm being too ambitious because, as always, the money and willpower would dissapear too fast for such a project to materialize, at least now. I was going from the presumption that space agencies possess enough practical knowledge to make such a mission possible.--Vladivostok 18:28, March 16, 2010 (UTC


 * Hm... okay. From what I understand (if the Buran has a similar characteristics as the Shuttle), the Buran may have the capacity to lift a payload the size of a LM, but it does not have the power to get itself out of Earth's orbit (even if it were empty). Also the way I see it, the USSR would have a similar (if not a little bit greater) economy to Russia today. So both the USA and the USSR would be limited to the time they can go to the Moon. I do believe the USSR could get to the Moon much sooner than in OTL, but soon would be around 2017. I would rather keep any Moon landings done by the USSR in synchrony with OTL. I have to do some more research on the idea, so I will have to get back to you on that.


 * As for what I said about Russia not being dissolved, I have to say that I need to bring back the idea that it dissolves. If the USSR supports federalism now, than having one huge republic surrounded by smaller ones just seems asinine to me. During the USSR in the Cold War, when it was practically centralized, this was not an issue. But in a TL where sovereignty is part of the USSR, Russia to split apart is inevitably, regardless on whether the entire region is populated by the same people. I am sorry to disappoint you (if I am), but I can't turn back from this idea. So forgive me. —NuclearVacuum 01:23, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the Moon landings were a cool idea to me, but I do think your right. I still feel that a Russian Federation could work in theory in a larger union because, simply put, who would have voiced such a strong opinion as to the size of the Russian Federation that the Russians would willingly carve themselves up? I'm sorry but the idea of being sovereign from your own government for the sake of decentralizing, when they already introduced Federal Districts in OTL to better organize the country, is strange to me and that is why we can't see eye to eye on this one. But "C'est la vie", it was your decision to make and I will of course respect that. Oh, and no new ideas in this post, I'm fresh out, too early to think straight. If anything comes to me, I'll let you know.--Vladivostok 06:39, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Well I am sorry again, but I keep flip flopping back and forth between making them republics, and not making them republics. I think I need more time to work on them, so I think I am going to be putting on a freeze on any changes to the map until I can get my mind straightened out. But you are right, gaining sovereignty on just to show a point. I don't know. Like I said, I keep flip flopping. But either way I go, I am still going to make Moscow become its own entity within the USSR. I am considering that some point in the nineties, the Muscovites and the rest of the USSR believe that the city would be better off as a separate entity, controlled by the people and not a republic (much like how Washington, DC is for the US). —NuclearVacuum 13:20, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, once more, you know where I stand. Personally, I like this flip better.:-) Now, I know that you thought, still think, whatever flippidy-flop it is now, that it would be good to decentralize things. But think of the common Russian man. Would he perceive it the same way? Or would he think that the Russian government was giving in to separatism, even though it isn't. As I said, there needs to be something to bind them within the Union. They can have greater autonomy in the Russian Federation, but this whole being a separate Soviet Republic, that is doubtful. It would be like your country dividing itself into the 50 separate states within a North American Union(I know,its a conspiracy theory, but bear with me). Would the common American say, "ehh,its for the better"?
 * Oh, FYI, I created pages for the Central Asian republics. It's a rough draft for now.--Vladivostok 16:34, March 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well if it makes you happy to hear, I am now flopping back to Russia not splitting up. —NuclearVacuum 17:35, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, thats good to hear, it was my brilliant skill as an orator that persuaded you to stick with this idea, I know, I know, you don't have to say anything.=) Oh, and I wanted to ask, are any other countries or organizations affected by the Soviet Union not falling apart? Other than Czechoslovakia, Romania and the ex-Yugoslavia region. Maybe we should spice up Europe. Do something crazy, like the Lisbon treaty getting ratified sooner, or everyone adopting the euro! Or a European army, as they could perhaps feel threatened by the Soviets? I mean, the Soviets are peaceful but surely they would piss someone off.--Vladivostok 19:55, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Hm... spice up Europe you say. Maybe Norway, Switzerland, and Croatia could join the EU much sooner. I see nothing wrong with having the Treaty of Lisbon signed earlier (but after 2001). A European army? Hm... don't know what to think about that. —NuclearVacuum 00:23, March 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, probably not Switzerland, but Iceland definately. I'm not quite sure about Croatia. The chain of events which happened could make the leadership of Croatia more controlling. Then again, closer involvement of the United States could lead to Croatia joining NATO much sooner, and thus the EU as well. Maybe not in 2004, but rather in 2007, with Bulgaria and Romania. The EU already has some peacekeeping units, while the Western European Union alliance could be integrated into the structure of the EU, along with the European Space Agency. Also, this line from the Lisbon Treaty: "The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. (TEU, Article 42)", could be promising. I thought of a smaller army, 50-80 thousand men tops. There would still be national armies, of course. But there could be a clause something along the lines that, if any country is attacked, the rest would join the fight and put their armies under direct command of a joint task force. An interesting angle worth considering I think.--Vladivostok 14:54, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Mongolia
Oh, I forgot. I think it would be rather easy to sway Mongolia to join the Union. There was a strong relationship between the two countries for almost 70 years. Of course, Gorbachev's reforms did make direct cooperation smaller then it once was, but I believe that there would be some sort of reapproachment and the Mongolians would see the benefits of joining the USSR, maybe some time in the ninties.--Vladivostok 11:54, March 17, 2010 (UTC)