Talk:Gansu (1983: Doomsday)

Lanzhou
Lanzhou was nuked.

Moreover, this proposal lies in a small open area between three nations, two of which would have actively moved against it long ago. Have a look at the China article.

Nor does those boundaries make any sense at all, Guns. There's no way a state is going to look like that.

It's just not plausible, Guns.

Lordganon 00:09, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

... Ok, Lanzhou I guess.

The states bordering it would have been pretty weak immediately post-dd, and Gansu is pretty large anyhoo, I'm sure it could survive. Against the full force of Tibet, maybe not, but it only borders the sphere of influence. Same for the PRC. GunsnadGlory 19:20, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

So wait, would the area be anexxed by the three nations in some form? Oh, the flag and CoA need changing. :D Imperium Guy 19:34, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't find anywhere with a Gansu CoA or flag, and honestly, my efforts on GIMP or Photoshop leave much to be desired. I cannot photoshop a flag for my life, and a CoA will be even harder.

There were more nations, of course, but basically, yeah. Most of inhabitable China would have been annexed by these three countries. GunsnadGlory 19:41, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Flag
I can help for a flag. Tell me what do you think (reasonably) how Gansu's flag would look? :D Imperium Guy 19:43, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Imp, I really owe you one.

As for the flag, I imagine some similarity to China's, so say 12 gold stars in a circle, with a dragon in the center, against a red background.

If you are willing to do the CoA too... 2 tigers and a dragon? GunsnadGlory 19:57, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and Gansu is HUGE. It is way larger than the PRC, way too far from Tibet, and could easily hold off Ugyhur. GunsnadGlory 20:06, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Kind of realised that, you map is VERY misleading!! The flag is under construction, BTW!! :D Imperium Guy 20:11, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Here is the flag, ta da!! The best this is, its editable!! :D Imperium Guy 20:27, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

The main point
...You guys have kinda missed the point.

Not only is those borders not at all plausible, but there's no way on earth that they could hold them.

The PRC would have fought this nation long ago. It may not control much, but it's gone beyond its borders several times, in large numbers.

More than anything, however, is that it is not Ugyhur. The Ugyhurs are actually part of the Soviet Union. Which calls itself the claimant to the PRC's territory, and claims all China. Simply put, there is no way that they would possibly allow such a thing to exist. And it's something that they've shown several times, now, as being something they take very seriously. Sharing a border with them is a deathwish. Heck, in coming years the two closest Chinese states will get roasted by them, even.

This is something that, simply put, there is no way can exist here.

Guns, you've got to remember, that just because there is no state in a spot, does not mean that one can exist there.

Moreover, the PRC remnant is pretty weak, and in all likelihood, will not be around long. China'll be left in far more than three states, in the end, too.

Lordganon 03:14, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Hey LG, its been mentioned a couple times, but I went to look but couldn't find it, could you point me to where it states the USSR considers itself the successor to the PRC? Oerwinde 11:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Then the China map is goung to need changing for the south-western part to be Tibetian Influence, a small northern portion Soviet and a small eastern portion PRC control. Imperium Guy 11:29, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

The PRC can go beyond it's borders whenever. It stands zero chance against Gansu.

Ugyhur might, but that would require a full scale war.

Tibet would worry about the USSR influence right on their borders, and would probably support Gansu.

Love the flag, Imp. GunsnadGlory 19:19, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Guns. Although he needs to go to "great" detail how it was formed, which I might add to and it would definately not control the whole of the region properly, but with firefoms, it is still possible that this state could and would exist. Imperium Guy 19:27, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Re PRC vs Gansu: Keep in mind that Gansu doesn't exist yet, and has to pass community consesus before it does. The PRC remnant is both more populous and more developed, and Gansu had its major transportation and industrial hub nuked, essentially splitting the province in half, which would hinder any growth as a unified state. The area is also where clashes between the PRC and the Imperial Chinese leadership lead to the Imperials fleeing east I believe, I may be wrong on that though. There is a lot to work through before we can grad this.Oerwinde 19:42, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. :D Imperium Guy 19:45, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

To clarify my more populous comment as the article has a wildly inflated population. Lanzhou was the largest population centre and the centre of the province's nuclear power. Nuking it would cast immense clouds of fallout all over the southern part of the province, which was the most densely settled and agriculturally rich. This would essentially kill the food supply and result in millions of deaths due to radiation. The Yellow River would be contamimated affecting water supply for at least the first few months, but likely longer. Also, the population in 1983 was around 20 million, so cutting out about 6-8 million due to the south's annihilation puts that at around 12-14 million, with little food and water that is not going to grow until those supplies can be stabilized. In fact it will drop.Oerwinde 19:56, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Well the one-child policy would be abolished. BTW, I haven't read about the one-child policy on any Chinese article posrt-dd. So we would have starving, then no growth and then slow but steady growth. So it will fall to 12 million then not grow and then grow. That would give us a present population of around 18-20 million. :D Imperium Guy 20:00, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Oer, to answer your question about them claiming to be the successor, you're right, it doesn't say so on the Socialist Siberia page, I'll add that in. It does however state that Taiwan and Siberia are at odds over their claims in China. Also, the map of the USSR has the rest of China outlined gray, signifying their claims. And guys, LG has about it being way to close for comfort to the PRC and the USSR. The territory should be revised a bit.Vladivostok 21:34, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

I have got the territory near the USSR and the PRC as firefoms to make it look like they are no threat while the main territory is inside that. And I have to agree with guns about the Republic being able to hold of the PRC if they ever came, which they haven't. :D Imperium Guy 22:04, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nearly doubling in population in that time would be unrealistic without stable sources of food and fresh water. Not to mention all the cancer without access to decent medical care. The 12 million would be after the immediate bombing and radiation deaths. Starvation and lawlessness would result in even more population decline, lets say another 4 million over the first 10 years. Without food you can't have rapid population growth because that would just cause more starvation so the growth rate won't be like OTL when it was like 15%

Now with the major transportation hub linking north and south destroyed, and no fuel coming in, transportation between north and south is going to make uniting it very difficult. The PRC is going to be much more organized simply because they won't have gone through a revolution establishing a democracy, and their territory is mostly loyal communists. Keep in mind that a lot of the Chinese have been indoctrinated, so a large % of the population truly believes in the communist ideals. Encountering the legitimate remains of the PRC would cause a lot of unrest in a fledgling republic because a large % of the Gansu population would see them as the legitimate government rather than the Gansu government.Oerwinde 09:15, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Another note, Gansu has through history seen hampered growth and development due to common drought, famine, and earthquakes. I didn't see its large population growth until resource extraction began expanding in the region. With no reason to extract these resources with no one to buy them and no local use for them, there would likely be an exodus of people as well to more fertile lands.Oerwinde 09:27, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Vlad's got it, Oer, plus he's said that on talk pages before.

Guys, the one-child policy was only started in 1979. And barely enforced in rural areas, at the time. It had no real effect on this area by the time of Doomsday. The population would not have an increase in rate of growth because of a lack of that policy, as it was barely in existence.

As I've said already, the PRC remnant, while pathetic compared to Siberia, is probably the strongest of the mainland powers, or not far off. It also has a history of large, heavily armed, bodies of troops moving around outside its borders. They'd have fought this thing long ago.

Again, such a state cannot possibly exist so close to Siberia.

Really, this thing has powers that would be hostile to it on three sides. It occupies a tiny strip between them, and one in a very odd shape, at that. No chance at all of defending itself.

You're over-inflating any power anything here would have, Guns and Imp.

Oer is right as well, that this is an area where the Imperials and PRC fought a bit before the Imperials fled east.

Population is more than double what it would have, as well.

Overall, this thing really just isn't possible, guys.

As I said before, every spot on the map isn't going to have a state. This is one of those spots, honestly.

Lordganon 12:22, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Gansu could be made like this as well. The Imperialist fought over 20 years ago, with the PRC not even covering its present area. Fine, another a quarter of the present population gone. Tibet won't be harsh, after it becomes democratic and the PRC is still a bit away, same with Siberia. :D Imperium Guy 12:31, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Whoa, wait a sec, LG. First of all, even with all that population decline, Gansu outnumbers the PRC, 15 million to 18 million. In addition to that, it is sheltered from Siberia (partly) by Tibet- which would actually back it in a fight against Siberia. I agree it would be hard pressed- but that doesn't matter. It would still surive unless a simultaneos invasion from both the PRC and Siberia occured- and I'm not thinking that's likely, since Siberia wants to control ALL of China- including the PRC. They might even support Tibet and Gansu against Ugyhur. GunsnadGlory 19:47, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

The PRC will not support Gansu unless its [PRC] is fighting for survival. I do think Tibet will support Gansu. :D Imperium Guy 21:45, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I meant that if the USSR decided to invade mainly but yeah. Tibet would support Gansu against the PRC, though Gansu has the upper hand anyway. GunsnadGlory 21:47, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

In addition... you may notice that TIBET shelters most of Gansu from Ugyhur, and the fireforms Imp put in place helped a lot too. Tibet supports Gansu against PRC and anyway Gansu has the slight upper hand. I really don't see a problem here, gents. GunsnadGlory 22:04, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

As has been proven to you guys, it would have half the population you have here.

Gansu would not be stronger than the PRC.

Tibet, as Vlad has told and the article says too, is peaceful, and only has claims to the region you're referring to. Nor are they an agricultural place, at all. They are a non-effect in anything. And in the impossible event that they were to support anyone, it'd be the Siberians. No one else.

Guns, what you're missing entirely is that the region of Tibet you refer to is claimed, not controlled, and that Siberia also controls Mongolia. That whole northern border is theirs.

Siberia is far stronger than any Chinese state. Mechanized army, with air power, etc. When it decides to move, it will crush whatever it invades in this area.

As has been said before, you guys need to quit talking about Ugyhar like it's independent. It's part of Siberia.

The PRC has a history of sending large bodies of troops outside of its borders - the article even says this. And this has been the case since the 1980s. Being stronger than anything here could be, they'd have gotten rid of it long before.

Siberia's even worse, in that regard.

And, as before: Trim its size down. This is far larger than anything here could possibly be.

One other thing, too. Had not noticed before how close Nanchung was to this. You do know that they, like the Dragon State, raid and destroy things far beyond their borders, right? There's no way that this could possibly control that southern area.

Plus, that map there is horribly off, and doesn't say a thing about how large those states actually are.

What on earth do you guys mean by "fireforms?" By my guess, you're talking about defense lines. And those would not accomplish anything.

Lordganon 08:16, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Imp, that map change made it worse. Lordganon 14:40, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Map
Okay, here's the map updated again. To clear misconceptions, the lighter areas for Gansu, Tibet and "Siberia" are claimed or influences while for the other countries its just influences. By "firefoms", I meant influences. Gansu has been almost halved, same with the population. I do not want to go smaller or lower for any of them. :P Imperium Guy 16:43, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

...No, Gansu is still the same size. That's not at all a plausible size.

And you've not gotten the majority of the point about the map being off, overall. Compare yours, to the China map.

Lordganon 22:21, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I just did, so I kinda changed it. Gansu is much smaller. :( Imperium Guy 18:19, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Drought
Drought can be negated due to the increase in rainfall in many regions of the planet. You are right about the infrastructure and other topics, so I am trying to incorporate all these into the article to make it more plausible. The resources would be bought by Tibet due to their need for construction due to the immigration happening in their country. They would trade these for fertilizer. I think the final population now shold be around 15 million, no less. :D Imperium Guy 11:11, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

...Except that the rainfall increases don't start for at best, a decade after DD. Lordganon 12:09, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

And does Tibet even produce fertilizer?Oerwinde 18:22, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think in fact 15 million would be a bit low. Lanzhou was a major population center- take off 3-4 million. another million gone due to poor medical aid, another 7 million gone due to starvation and fallout. then 15 years of slow but steady growth. at least another 5 million added. (all this is to current OTL population- this is just the effects.) 18 million (roughly). GunsnadGlory 19:53, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Even if it doesn't, its the gateway to the outside world and through Tibet, fertilizer can be brought in. :P Imperium Guy 21:54, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Wait a sec... Tibet may not produce fertilizer... but Gansu mines various phosphors in addition to others...

Phosphors that can be used in fertilizers. xD GunsnadGlory 22:01, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Oer, now we have demand for resources and fertilizers. Good going guns!! BTW, there's a new CoA on the main page. :D Imperium Guy 22:16, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Imp. BTW, is it you who keeps removing Liu Weiping as Governor? GunsnadGlory 22:19, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Why would I. Might want to check the page's history. Imperium Guy 22:21, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't suspect you, but you, me, and Griffin are the only ones who have edited this page, and I think I fixed all of Griffin's vandalism, besides which he never edited the infobox. GunsnadGlory 22:26, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

How is the population at 18 million? Theres no way that any growth would occur during the eighties and nineties that could counter the number of people being killed for starvation, cancer, cannibalised, etc. Please at the very most it would be like 6 million people.

Also, how would they go into this "Find Fertilizers At All Costs" mode? And who would trade them? Every other area would either be hoarding whatever goods they have for their own use or too depopulated to utilize them.

The one thing I don't get is, and I know this has been brought up already but how has Siberia or the PRC not taken them over already? The PLA organizing around Taiyuan could have easily taken the province under their control without any bloodshed right after Doomsday as the local leaders would have gladly rejoined the "rest" of the country. Arstar 22:53, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the PRC wouldn't because they don't have the strength or the reach to invade them. As for the Siberians, if they were to expand further into China at all, it would either be to capture the remainder of Uyghuristan not under their control so they could encircle and capture Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan later on, or they would focus on capturing or destroying Imperial China so they could create a warm water port. Vladivostok 23:25, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

While the PLA would be too weak to really do the job today, largely due to a lack of fuel, it sure as heck could have done it in the aftermath of DD, and would have.

Guns, Imp, what you're both missing is that there's more than the one ingredient in fertilizer. And that takes factories to make, which are likely inoperable now.

The population would absolutely crash in the 1980s, and hard. Negative growth until the 1990s, and only then will it start to slowly increase. Simply put, unlike India, there's no outside sources of supplies here. You guys are both assuming that the growth rate would be the same as otl, when that is just not going to happen, even today.

Let's put it this way, guys. Hainan, a nation untouched by nukes and radiation, and with some outside contact as well as fishing boats, has half the otl population. You are arguing that this area, with its largest city nuked, virtually no outside trade until the last decade, and significant radiation and fallout problems/deaths, has in the region of three quarters of its otl population.

Simply put, that ain't happening. Just not possible, in the least. Half of what you have it as, at best.

Lordganon 07:55, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Half of the population, 9-10 million. No less, no more. Imperium Guy 10:38, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Nine. And after it gets shrunk down to a plausible size, you take another two or three off of that. Lordganon 14:41, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

What you people are failing to get is this: Gansu has huge amounts of resources. There are huge deposits of rare earths and many others. Tibet, the ANZC, the SAC, they'll all want to exploit these resources- so actually, I think contact a bit earlier. Tibet has the factories capable of making fertilizer, and would happily help Gansu build new ones. Even if Tibet doesn't there is the ANZC and the SAC. Ten million, at least. 165.155.200.73 19:19, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Tibet's economy is based mostly on subsistence agriculture, which isn't industrialised. That means most of the population grow their own food to survive. There isn't going to be much of a demand for resources. The SAC and ANZC have no contact with Gansu so they're out. The only nearby state that would have any use for the resources would be the PRC, and they would likely just attempt to take over.Oerwinde 19:42, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

But they can't though. Can't they just trade, biding their time for a takeover... :/ Imperium Guy 19:48, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

The area of the PRC is also rich in resources, what the PRC needs now is food, and the Gansu region can't supply that. Gansu has nothing the PRC needs, so they likely wouldn't trade with them as the Gansu government they view as illegitimate. Right now they're having trouble because they won't recognize Jiangsu, which has the resources they need. That will likely change though, and once it does, the PRC will start expanding.Oerwinde 19:58, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

O oh. Last stand seems inevitable, or is it? If the PRC has exactly the same resources as Gansu, as you said the won't be needing it. What would Gansu have that the PRC would want, except from the obvious one (population to control over)? And if the PRC does manage to get its act together, it will still take time to get to Gansu, and by then it could have allied itself to Siberia as, seeing through the misconception, Siberia is not going to advance outside Urguyr unless the whole province is theirs. :D Imperium Guy 20:06, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Its mostly that they are the PRC, they see Gansu as rightfully theirs. Its of lower strategic importance though. I think they will likely expand south and east before expanding west. They would want a port and the more fertile lands east before they could take advantage of Gansu's resources.Oerwinde 20:18, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

We have a year. To get to warm ports will take them a long time unless they trade with Jiangsu and from what I've read, those two have a lot of bad blood between them. :D Imperium Guy 20:26, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Guns, you're overstating those resources, big-time. They're basically useless. And the rare earths are unobtainable to these guys.

Tibet would not have fertilizer factories. Such a resource would be utterly useless there.

Again, quit assuming things about Tibet. They're not going to be friends, at all.

Oer is exactly right about everything else.

Again, as stated: The PRC goes beyond its areas of influence in terms of expeditions. And Nanchung raids areas far larger than its territory, killing and destroying everything it can't take with it.

Pretty much, this state would be around half of the size you're assigning it, and quite frankly, given that it's rather implausible, even that's a stretch. Population drops as well, obviously.

That's not an accurate picture of Siberia, either. Their actions overall tell exactly the opposite of that, Imp. Nor would they ever ally with a state like Gansu.

As for what the PRC would want.... well, it's their territory, simply put.

Lordganon 22:30, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Tibet would certainly be 'friends' as you put it. They don't want PRC raids on their borders, and Gansu acts like a buffer.

Much of the state is SoI (Sphere of Influence). But I agree that it wouldn't ocupy the complete state,

THEY might not be able to exploit said resources, but the ANZC and SAC would, and they'd love to- it's necessary in most electronic devices.

And if Siberia invades, ALL Chinese states fall, as you said. Unless, the SAC or ANZC intervene to make sure of no interruption in the supplies of the above...

I don't see a problem here, gents. 98.14.126.83 00:28, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tibet wouldn't be. They are at no danger from raids, and wouldn't be interacting with these guys.

Again: The SAC and ANZC would have not be involved here. And electronics are a bit more than twenty years behind otl. Those elements are more or less useless here. And this place is so far inland, nothing can get here from outside of the region.

Again, the SAC and ANZC would not care. Heck, they both on some level recognize Siberia as the descendant of the PRC. Siberia has shown several times to be very.... willing to reclaim its lands.

Lordganon 00:49, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how Siberia could be recognized as both the successor to the USSR and the successor to the PRC since:

A)The PRC still exists,

B)Taiwanese China is a much more legitimate claimant to the PRC than Siberia is, and

C)The USSR Nuked China.

Claiming to be the successor is fine, if a bit wonky, but I don't see how anyone could recognize those claims.Oerwinde 00:56, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I said nothing about Tibet at all. From what I know, the LoN believe TRC to be the official successor to China, not the USSR. The SAC and ANZC are going to have to abide by it, one way or another. Its different Tibet is too far away from Nanchung or the PRC to be threatened, so it would only be normal trading relations at my best guess, no alliance to speak of as they (sadly) have the USSR to protect them. Siberia is still too far away from Gansu, and with the new map (with Gansu shrunk), the furthest raiding areas of the PRC and Nanchung could only get to its influences, not its main area of control. Any other things you want to shoot down? :/ Imperium Guy 18:33, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Plus, LG, when Siberia starts moving, EVERY state in China is going to fall, except maybe - MAYBE- Tibet. Since the ANZC and SAC acknowledge the TRC, they'd probably object, but unless Siberia attacked it, not actually intervene.

But LG, rare earths are used in practically ALL electronic devices- TV, radio- both of which would probably be common at the time. Even telephones. Even at 1990 tech, they are still used in a HUGE number of things. GunsnadGlory 19:23, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. They had laptops and computers in the early 90s as well. Wonder what happened to apple and microsoft... Aircraft are going to need it and for the ANZC, he's another place to get cheap good, but for Gansu, ANZC buying their goods is life-giving. BTW, I figured out that Tibet, then the UIP could be used as routes for trading of materials. :D Imperium Guy 19:29, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Who did this?
Who is this? Someone just wrote something rather rude on the article, I think his username is Griffin3. ? I've put the WIC template in place. GunsnadGlory 20:54, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

And since he's been banned, I've taken it off. GunsnadGlory 19:38, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Tibet & Uyghur
Well, I'm the caretaker of Tibet and as you might have noticed, I saw the article. In any case, I don't really mind any trade or peaceful cooperation, but the idea of Tibet actively opposing anyone from expanding into China is strange to me. Why would they do that? Why would Gansu do that? Tibet certainly does not claim the entirety of China and does not seek to expand and I didn't see anything about Gansu claiming it either. The whole military aspect between the two countries makes no sense to me, as Tibet is a peaceful, neutral nation that is the only country in former China that is on good terms with Siberia.

On another note, you seem to write about the Uyghur Republic as if it were a separate entity, which it isn't. It is a member of the USSR. So really, the USSR is expanding then. And on that note, why would Tibet and Gansu stop them from expanding into what I assume is the remainder of Xinjiang?Vladivostok 22:20, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, no, that's not what I meant, sorry. I phrased that badly. I meant against Gansu- which LG and Oer seem to think will happen- and not into Xinjiang. I'll fix that. GunsnadGlory 22:23, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Same as guns. It is mainly about trade and not really about war Tibet is talked about really. :D Imperium Guy 22:26, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

To clarify what I did with Tibet in the original china map with Tibet's Sphere of Influence, that I think people are assuming is part of Tibet. When I was doing some research for post DD china when I first did the China article, the area of Qinghai province I had under Tibetan influence because of the large Tibetan minority (OTL 20% of the population) and the fact that there was no other real stable state in the area aside from the USSR and I figured there would be some resentment there because, well the USSR nuked them. Also, theres the idea of "greater Tibet here. Qinghai doesn't really have any sort of central government, that mostly collapsed with the loss of outside food reources. Its all just independent towns that mainly trade with Tibet and tend to align themselves with Tibet in times of crisis. Oerwinde 10:13, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Also Re Uyghur: I think the main misconception stems from the Soviet terminology. In North America, when something is titled "Republic" we immediately associate that with a sovereign state rather than a political subdivision of a larger nation. So most people here would see Uyghur Republic and think its an independent state.Oerwinde 11:18, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I updated the map to show influences and main control areas to remove the main conception of Tibet controlling the whole area it did on the previous map. :D Imperium Guy 13:12, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well Imp, I feel you have some misconceptions regarding Siberian control in Uyghuristan and Manchuria. The Siberians control the entirety of the area firmly, since it is an integral part of the created republic in the area. Uyguristan, on the other hand, doesn't control Kizilsu at all, Kashgar barely at all, while they control slightly more than half of Hotan and three quarters of Bayingolin. The rest is claimed by Siberia though.Vladivostok 13:58, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Imp, that map of yours is even more off now. Lordganon 14:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, okay. I uploaded a new map BTW. :P Imperium Guy 16:45, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

....Imp, the problem remains. Lordganon 22:18, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Imp, that IS true. But it is good enough for our needs, methinks. 98.14.126.83 00:28, February 17, 2012 (UTC)