User talk:Scandinator



Principia Moderni Treaty
From Emperor Pimpisara II of Hanthawaddy and its posessions to King of Sweden:

The current engagement our countries are in is coming to a halt and Hanthawaddy wishes to engage in a fair treaty. Hanthawaddy has captured most of Norway and Iceland, and it does not appear as if Sweden could regain those territories by fighting, so we wish that the territories be returned to Sweden through peace. The territories shown in red, Hanthawaddy wishes to keep. This includes Iceland and Finnmark as far as the Reisa River. Hanthawaddy will ensure that the traditional way of life of the areas are kept, and Sweden will have a say in how they are managed. Hanthawaddy will renounce claim over the area shown in green on the following conditions:


 * 1) Sweden allows Mons to settle islands off the west Norwegian coast, although the immigration is not to exceed 1,000 per year.
 * 2) Sweden favours Mon products in Swedish ports, allowing Hanthawaddy to account for 30% of the spice trade, and giving Mons living in Sweden privileges equal to those of locals.
 * 3) Sweden promises not to incite further violence in the territories of Toeh Ngoa Nyoing, and as a sign that the promise will be kept, Sweden presents three of its finest whales to Hanthawaddy each year via the port of Purongcham. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  19:09, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

American Empire
Greetings,

I was looking at your Imperialist America thing and would like to ask if I could be your other implausibility detector/grammar nazi as I am very OCD and great at both.

Sincerely,

PrinceofPrussia

Sure as long as you take a country and quickly!!

All the players are dividing up the big nonplayer nations and devouring them. But China is still open.

Yeah, I'll take China.

Imperialist America (Map Game)
I think I should be moderator on te map game due to me being its creator and that I should ave the same powers as you, which I acknowledge the fact that you became a mod. I have seen your work on other map games and I like what I see, please get back to me as soon as possible. DeanSims 22:44, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

PS: I also acknowledge the fact that Riley Conner is a mod, se is well knwon in other map games as well. thanks, DeanSims 22:44, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

Imperialist America
Prussia should join, it would be great, please make it official on the game page though. Heres the map of the world after Russia's conquest: DeanSims 15:20, August 10, 2011 (UTC)



A deal is offered to Prussia that if it joins the Southern Powers all of American Africa will become part of Prussia as well as previously agreed upon territories shown in the post-war world map as well as $30 million dollars DeanSims 17:42, August 13, 2011 (UTC) The United States is in need of dire assistance by its allies, if help is given, the below map will become official:



I cannnot hold them off forever, I will need help. DeanSims 00:25, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Imperialist America Han China possibly a new nation
Mabe something could happen where the old Qing governement is pushed firther inland but never disapears like Taiwan(Republic of China) and what we currently call China(People's Republic of China or PRC)-2 chinas could exist-Qing China and Han China if the allies win, and Han china could be open to another player? I will propose a map later today. Qing China could stay its player but with a government-in-exile and mabe Han China could become a new nation? thoughts(respond on my talk page with the same headline please)

Who is this???

sorry i forgot to signLxCaucassus 22:03, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Imperilist America
Hey, I was not here and I left Bobulgee in charge of the USA, and yet he did nothing, and you cant use your mod powers to win the war, I didnt do that, I am creating a second map game that currently is before the war, my country couldnt have been taken that quickly, its not right. DeanSims 19:00, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't use my mod powers to win at all. I merely blocked implausability from Russia, China and Austria. China at one point stated they were marching from the Urals to Oslo in one year!!!! I admit Bobulgee didn't take care of your country properly but your side was against Japan, Russia, France, Britain, Prussia and the Muslim Caliphate. We just hit one country at a time on all sides. Austria first, then China and finally the US. Scandinator 21:38, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

MOD
Did you create the moderator quotes stating that the USA was suffering riots? Because it was only me and my allies who experienced them, if not, ur mod status is restored.

DeanSims 21:55, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oh what the hell, ur a mod again

Mod
You are still a mod, I was being stupid, sorry, your previous powers have been returned.

DeanSims 14:10, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

SC II
Do you play StarCraft II? “as I pretty much live on strategy games.” PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:51, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, in fact I do. I find it a very good game but unfortunatly I can't play online due to a crappy conection... Scandinator 06:16, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Axis vs Allies Revised

 * United Kingdom: The British declare war on the Soviet Union and Poland, and 200,000 thousand troops are sent to help Finland while the British Navy begins attacking ALL Soviet ships and much of its coastline cities. The UK response to the Soiets is that yes you were on the defensive, but how many other nations were on the defensive that you conquered, it is time to teach you communist scum what you deserve. Britain withfraws all penalties from Germany due to the Treaty of Versailes and other treaies thereafter, Germany is given the green light to fully mobilize its entire armed forces and navy to attack Poland asnd the USSR, of which all of European Poland and Russia will be ceded to it, the Baltic States, and Finland. The British Army invades the Soviet Union through Persia, and the army, numbering 200,000 men, begins to destroy the Soviet countryside and cities, hoping that Germany will launch an attack soon though Poland, draining more Soviet-Polish troops to another front.
 * You and I are now allies, I hope you will allow me to use your naval and air bases so I can attack Russia.
 * DeanSims 16:18, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

The Chronicles of the War
Hi, sorry to say this but this wiki is strictly for timeline that take place in the past up to the present. Future history is off limit. Marcpasquin 22:09, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, Sorry didn't know that.

AvA allience
Sure, Thailand shall accept the allience. 9 もりや すわこ 14:20, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

As long as I'm agianst Nazi germany im realy interested...LxCaucassus 16:36, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

From Poland
From Corvin Szabolcs, aka Lech II, King of Poland to the King of Sweden

The engagement between Venice and Hungary is ending, but other is about to begin.I see that you are trying to take over Poland, and i have a offer to make to you.Before the war, you were an ally of Hungary.However, a Civil war (or war of succession, since the objective is simply overthrow him and replace him with me or the crown prince) looks like its about to happen in Hungary.The king is against the already-signed peace treaty between Venice and Hungary and this war proved itself as a disaster, and any more year of fighting would exhaust the remainder of the Hungarian army, and it would end in defeat, since he is terrible with tactics and a somewhat incompetent ruler.Since Hungary will declare war on you anyway, Poland proposes a alliance in trade for your help in overthrow the king of Hungary.Your army can use the Polish cities as a base.However, you won't be allowed any territorial gains on Hungary, but you can make Prussia (a only nominal part of our territory, since it is rebelling against the Polish crown)a vassal state, or part of your territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:24, September 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the alliance only will be resumed after Béla (the current king of Hungary) is overthrown, and the new king (not defined yet. but will be either Szabolcs or the crown prince András) is crowned, because he (Béla) will be at war with you.i suggest that you move your troops (secretly) in the end of 1653 and start to attack in 1654.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:13, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

Shanghai
Even if that were the case it wouldn't help. Between the massive population of the city and the flames, nothing is going to exist within probably 50 miles of the destroyed city. A slightly off airburst would take out the entire city anyways, too. Lordganon 15:13, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Fires, Debris, and Radiation, with refugees worse than anywhere on earth. No survivors.

There is a strike recorded near Ningbo. Have a look at the China page. Not sure what it is, but I assume a naval base.

Not only would Hangzhou get a ton of radiation, but near as I can tell, it would get overwhelmed by refugees, given its proximity to strikes, and get raided by the Dragons, or those fleeing them. Unlikely that there's any real number of survivors.

Have a look at the China map on that article. It'd be your best bet to find anywhere you could manage something.

Lordganon 22:24, September 14, 2011 (UTC)

The area is regularly ravaged by the Dragons, various refugees and warlords, covered in radiation, and suffering from the impacts of three separate strikes. You're still talking about the area around Shanghai, where a nation, or even any large number of survivors, is just impossible.

Look at the map on http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/China_(1983%3A_Doomsday) and think about it.

Lordganon 07:00, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Radiation does not only go in one direction - sure, it is concentrated in one, but it goes everywhere. You're also completely ignoring strikes that will land radiation right smack on that area.

You have completely failed to get my point about the refugees, fires, warlords, starvation, and above all, the Dragons. All four factors mean that millions die.

Again, have a look at the map on the China page. Have a good, hard look at that area. It is too close to those strike zones, and is right in the path of radiation from the strikes on the Southern Coast. Within a year, combined with the other factors, you are looking at more than 95% dead, probably closer to 99%. Hangzhou would be almost entirely depopulated, far worse than the rest of the region. There is no chance of a state existing there.

With major cities, especially ones the size of Shanghai, you need to remember that a massive death zone surrounds them. The blast will level most of the city, and the fires will take care of the rest within hours. Those who survive flee, causing others to flee as they find them. It is a cycle that lasts for weeks, until enough die off to live. The figures from that are never pretty.

Lordganon 09:35, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

About the only area left on the map that another Chinese state could possibly work in is somewhere along the border between Guangxi and Guizhou. The radiation from the strikes on the capitals of those two provinces, as well as the city of Hanoi in Vietnam, would miss almost entirely.

Lordganon 09:44, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

You are still failing to get the point. The radiation is largely irrelevant.

The radiation would be unaffected by that storm, btw. Have a look at the maps. It did not get anywhere near the area in question until the 28th or so, when it was largely burned out, and when it did, the radiation had already set in or had yet to arrive in force.

It is too close to Shanghai, and the other blasts. All there is to it. I have now even gone out of my way to supply you with a location that works 100%.

Lordganon 10:28, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

"New China" doesn't really make much sense. They are still in China, after all. Guangxi is a Autonomous Region for the Zhuang people, it would probably be best to play that card for the name, identity, etc. of the state.

"Most" is definitely out, too. As would any control over parts of Hunan. Some influence outside of their area of control, as virtually all the Chinese states have, would work as going into parts - not most - of the three provinces, but the core territory would need to be along that border.

Lordganon 13:47, September 15, 2011 (UTC)

Probably, it would remain Guangxi. The state would still have a large Chinese population, have to think of them too.

A probable capital, btw, would be Hechi.

Lordganon 00:32, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

(AvAr) It is Time:
It is time to form the Eastern Superpowers. Japan will be given an invitation aswell. It is time to strengthen Asia. Imperium Guy 11:36, September 21, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, you can take it, however you should speak for the betterment of the whole of the Eastern Superpowers (Hindustan, China and Japan). Vetoing decisions will be seen to when there is a need, right now that will be fine. Ta!! :D Imperium Guy 08:01, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Yay!! I have written that constuction begin on a China-Japan bridge, would that be a problem as it has a big amount of Hindustani help and it stops at a Japanese island off the coast of Korea where it would meet up with its Japanese counterpart?? Ta!! :D Imperium Guy 09:38, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Flag of the Eastern Superpowers? :D Imperium Guy 17:01, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Varients 2 and 3, lolrl. Choose your pick. :D Imperium Guy 17:52, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

Afganistan still is British with Hindustani troops defending it, Scan. However, well done for putting the Soviets in their place. I will also begin an offensive into Soviet-Persia. :D Imperium Guy 19:01, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

Hey. I said that the USCA and the DRS are joined with more territory. Hope you don't mind because there is nothing to lose. Ta!! :D Imperium Guy 13:42, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Principia Moderni (Possible Swedish Expansion Offer)
Dear Sweden. We have been watching the rapid Russian expansion and are incredibily concerned. We send an offer to join arms in the period between 1673 to 1682 where we will reveal ourselves. We are a current ally of yours as well. Sweden has the chance to gain huge advantages in land. We are also approaching the nations of Vietnam, Joeson, China (to hit Russia in the east) and Venice and Naples (to help you block Hungary, France and Anglo-Germany if they get involved). You have a vast territory open for possible expansion if you take this deal. Respond on this talk page if you are interested.

I'm interested. However, what happens in the Russian colonies? Scandinator

AvAr
Fancy joining the EASA program? It consists of Eastern Powers, UASR, Venezuala, Yugoslavia and Argentina? What do you think because venezuala is already in? :D Imperium Guy 09:43, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Hey, the ruling in the ICJ was in Hindustani favor!! Therefore, Russian territories will have to be be returned and visa versa. There, war over!! :D Imperium Guy 18:22, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Get 20 men or astronauts ready for the maiden launch of makind into space as well as to go to the moon and possibly Mars!! Also, need any help destroying a few communists?? :D Imperium Guy 20:50, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

Hey you want in on the USSR? they are currently invading me but can be turned back if assistance is given. Kunarian 19:22, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

You need to post. I need to find out if the bride is complete yet or not!! :D Imperium Guy 13:08, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Mamluks
About the Mamluks, i already claimed Egypt first.here is Naples, France and Greece's proposal.Greece would like to get more territory on the French part, but the parts surrounded by French territory are mine.However, i have few interests on Cyrenaica aside of Benghazi.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:57, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

This don't work.Greece wants at least that part surrounded by France.Greece wants Egypt specially because it was present there before the Muslims took over.(even though it was 1000 years ago).Greece taking and retaining Arabia would be next to impossible on geographic and cultural terms. and, about Sinai, Red Sea, and Gulf of Persia, you need to talk about this with France.-Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:47, October 24, 2011 (UTC)



Now, there it goes.a new proposal.the Cyrenaican area is optional.Greece would like it, but i'm in doubt if i give it to you, or Greece gets it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:28, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry.is because i woasn't sure if France conquered all of Algeria.was just 26%.oh, and half of Algeria is Burgundian because France made this deal with Burgundy.Sorry if i made other errors, because i wasn't sure in where is the Hadrian's wall.the Scottish coast isn't so detailed.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:07, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Stability of Non-Player Nations
How do you find the stability of non-player nations? Do they use the stability score? LurkerLordB 22:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I do not think so. That would make my calculations horribilty complicated.Scandinator

Principa Moderni- Scotland
Can I take Scotland and assume semi independence status? Alexanders 00:47, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Trade routes
How a trade route is defined, and Hungary has trade routes with which countries?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:17, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ya, I'm confused, what are the trade routes you "missed" that gained Sweden a 10 point boost in stability? and you are only supposed to count stability every 5 years! not every Turn! So I am resetting the Stability things to their prior positions of 40 and 35 becasue for some reason Sweden ended up with more trade routes than Russia which I find very bizzareLxCaucassus 17:49, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Hungary has 8 trade routes. There are land routes between Hungary and the following, Venice, AGC, Russia (via Lithuania), Russia (via Caucasians), Venice (Crusader States). Sea routes arrive at Naples, Tunisia and Libya.

Also the stabilty bonus for algorythms are calculated on an Excel spreadsheet EVERY year. I upload the full set of data every 5 as it takes a while. However I will input the current data into the algorythms.Scandinator

yes and they only take effect every 5 years when they are updated, so it doesnt change every year! you seem to change it whenever it is conveniant. Change it in 1705, then 1710 and so on, keep calculating it but it only takes effect on the 5th year, not whenever! and please define Russia's Trade routes pleaseLxCaucassus 21:07, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if the last post is bit naggy and if it offended you a bit I didnt mean it but this is what I mean by trade routes: Russia has more than 9 trade routes and i find it strange that sweden has more(no offense), but on my own I could find these for Russia: Russia-Sweden(most probably very closed), Silk road, Russia-china trade, Russia-manchuria, Russia-Turik states, Russia-Kazakhstan, Russia-AGC/rest of europe, Crimea-Rest of europe ,Northeast passage, Oceania-Russia(via pacific), Russia-India(via pacific ocean), Africa-Russia, Canada/Novorossiya-Russia/Lithuania, North America-Africa, Novorossiya-Itsahagi/orthagi, India-Africa,Kazakhstan-India/Persia and so on…that’s more than 9 routes, 15 at least.If I tried I could think of some more.LxCaucassus 21:19, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Nice Destroyer of worlds title BTW(im not being sarcastic, truely)LxCaucassus 22:21, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Russia has 9 trade routes. there are 3 land routes with China, two with Hungary, two with Persia, one with each of the AGC and Hanthawaddians. Trade only occurs between player nations as NPN's are in isolation. Sweden has more due to the strategic economic positions of Scotland, Libya and the Netherlands. The Dutch were essentially the Venice of Northern Europe and with Libya opens many routes across Continental Europe and the Med. Sweden proper has only 5 trade routes with 3 from the Scots and Netherlands each and 4 from Libya.Scandinator

You are still forgetting about sea trade, you cant get to scotland without using a boat, you are only counting land routes you shouldnt count Scotland at all(except one with AGC), and who forgot about trade with Itsahagi? even if they are not in play they are still "Player nations" and if you are not counting sea trade LxCaucassus 11:08, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

you forgot about the Northeast passage, and by you logic of by country you should only have one trade route with each nation so your logic on that is bogus. I have 2 trade routes with Hanthawaddy(the colony and the northeast passage). I also trade alot with Itsahagi via Orthagi and the orthagians are basicaly dependant on trade with Russia for their economy, thats 3 routes right there that you "missed"LxCaucassus 13:30, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Can you draw a map? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:25, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

Truce
I can not believe I'm stuck between LxCaucasus and you. because I can not make my mid about this, I suggest you and LxCaucasus declare a truce. Just keep what you have and try not to attack Russia again. please, I am stuck between the two of you and I just want to get out of it. --RandomWriterGuy 04:32, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Great Northern War PM
In this case, Hungary will revert to neutral, but Greece still will be supporting Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:37, October 31, 2011 (UTC)

Trade Route Map
No seriously can you create a map of list of all trade routes? If possible differentiate between major and minor trade routes (major includes mainly bordering countries), and also include relationships through colonies. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:50, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Take your time. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:41, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Why did you take Australia? :D It didn't receive independence yet anyways :D Doctor261 06:05, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Finally something original ;D Good luck, mate Doctor261 07:28, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know.ColorCounter stopped working in my computer, and now the only way that i can count the pixels is manually.and for Russia, this is madness.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 08:37, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Just propose it to me on your diplomacy turn ;) Doctor261 08:55, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for lightening my up ;) Doctor261 21:10, November 2, 2011 (UTC)

Make me that table. I really want to see how my stability goes ;D And it's very interesting to count all these things. Doctor261 05:57, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear that ^.^ Doctor261 10:07, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Finland
Hate to do this, but that's not my problem. Whoever is right I don't know (and honestly at this point I don't care), but the fact is you guys are slowing down the entire game. If I see progress in the peace effort, meaning no more argument, then you get your territory. If not, Finland. Simple. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:25, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

AvA (r)
Things are heating up and China needs your help. Fancy rejoining the game? It needs new players after several quit.82.11.86.136 18:00, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Persia and Sweden
I want to tell something about the Northern War. I know you have been vital to me and promised to help me invade India, but there was a reason I had to side with Russia. I did not want Russia to invade me if I side with you, which is the reason I had to side with Russia.

Now, I want to ask for amnesty from Sweden for Persia. In exchange, I prmoise never to take sides if Sweden and Russia are in war again.

Can we also economically cooperate?

RandomWriterGuy 23:55, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

How about supporting you in the crusades? France has already started it and I could help you. --RandomWriterGuy 15:13, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Here's little quote from AvA:Revised:

"Soviet Union denies Baltikan offer to conquer China, since most of the chinese leaders are communists. Soviet Union secretely shows China the plan, offered by Baltika." Doctor261 12:06, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Allies vs Axis Revised
"*Soviet representative arrives to your Chinese office.*"

"Dear ruler of China. I have brung you bad news. Baltika and some other countries are onto you, but I am here to defend your rights. Here is the plan *shows the plan*. It was offered by Baltika to split Japan and China into several parts. They offered this to me, but this just seems stupid. And since we have very similar ideologies, I will do everything to defend chinese and your rights.

And a little sidenote. Please keep this meeting as a secret. We don't want anyone to know about it, do we?"

"*Soviet representative awaits for Chinese leader's decision*"

Stability
One problem I have with the system is that most countries shouldn't have an "effective tax system." That means bureaucracy, with specifically appointed government workers sent to every village, field, and town, to collect a uniform value of taxes. This also implies strict punishment on tax enforcement among other things, and should be money and not crops. Just to avoid excessive controversy, I'm going to limit "effective" taxation to after industrialization stage 3 and only for highly centralized states. If I draw the line anywhere else then it would be too controversial. What do you think?

How is the map going? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:25, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

More problems I have:

1) War won in less than 5 years/Wars lasting five years: we don't really have any way of determining how long a war will last. Now that I think of it, winning wars should have 0 points, and lost wars should have 500*percent lost.  The reason you are fighting a war is to achieve a certain ends, and it has nothing to do with stability.  However, you might gain trade routes or other valuable commodities.

2) In general, people's stabilities are just getting bigger and bigger with no end in sight. We need to set a cap, or if you're up to it a curve, like maybe the logarithmic curve.

3) We should also differentiate not posting versus a non-improvement turn. The policy since the beginning of the game has been that not posting implies "minor economic improvement."  Thus, not posting can stay at -20, but expansion, military, etc. is usually very costly and should be at -50 per turn.  Posts that include large amounts of colonial expansion but nothing else will also be -20. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk)  19:21, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Principia Moderni Swedish Civil War
Hey, I was wondering, what if we did a civil war between the Nobles and the Swedish King Karl XI? Mabe have the Danish military as a whole and some Swedish units pledge allegiance to Karl and then the others keep their allegiance to the Nobles? Russia will back Karl as, even if Russian Tsar Peter Has a grudge with Karl due to the previous war and Finland, Peter Despises the Nobles more. how about it, starting the Swedish civil war?-Lx (leave me a message) 22:54, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

RE
But they would have lots of stuff that they would need to buy from Naples to set up their new nation. They might go into debt for it, but they need to support themselves. But in any case, it would be easy just to say it was blocked, as they can't get through the Danish straights.

How does Sweden control all the Baltic? Anglo-Germany and Russia and Finland all possess Baltic Ports. Together, they could probably at least hold a trade route within the Baltic, even if Sweden could stop up the Danish straights.

The picture is from the video game folklore, and it is really cool. LurkerLordB 16:42, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Response
It is very obvious that you are not being neutral with regards to anything on that blasted game that your nation is involved in. You may not think so, but it is obviously the case.

Simply put, your actions and behavior have violated the wikia rules on several occasions. I have warned you, repeatedly, to quit. You have not done so. The extent I have been lenient with you is unprecedented, simply because of your age, and that you think you are doing your "job." As stated before, one more step over the line and you will get a vacation - such behavior will no longer be tolerated. Kenny has had to tell you such things, too.

You are harassing and bullying the users of that game, and I am tired of it. Of that there is absolutely no question.

Those who consider themselves free of "bias" are almost never actually so. This is a proven fact.

If ending trouble on this site means losing a "valued contributor" then so be it.

Lordganon 00:29, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I read what you said to LG too Scandinator. Although I do not regret what I stated (the accusations of bias themselves) I do apoligize if I phrased something in a manner far more harsh than it should have been (as I fear may have been the case). LurkerLordB 01:13, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

All I'm going to say is if we're going to start a huge Wikia-wide controversy, let's at least clear everything up with stability. While Scandinator was probably not completely objective with his stability and algorithms, it is also true that he likely tailored his own country specifically to meet the needs of the algorithm. It is probable that his own actions for his country represent his ideas of stability. So in a sense it is not bias, but appears as so. I'm going to review the stability algorithm once this is over.

@Scandinator, you're not innocent… You probably should not have invaded Finland, and there may be eventual consequences. But overall this thing is a huge headache… so let's not start a controversy. @LG I can handle the conflict as it is on the game, feel free to interject, but we can deal with "harassing and bullying" once this chaos is over with. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:23, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Where are the 1715 stability scores? i want to know how many of stability my nation has.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:58, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Busy Weekends
Hey Samuel, could you take care of Spain on the UTC Friday and Saturday turns. I have too much to do over the weekends... Thanks!!

ManofSteele 02:45, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Fix Stability
You might have missed this, but I did not add that thing saying that we would just be using the stability curve until the algorithm was fixed on a whim Detectivekenny, under the Finnish, war, stated " The stability curve is 100% objective, so for now we're going to use it, until we can get an objective stability system." That means until you can get the stability thing to be objective, we will use the curve. Since it wasn't objective when he posted that (or else he wouldn't have done so) and since it hasn't been modified in any way since then, it is therefore still not objective. I think some ideas to make it more objective might be to remove the soil quality thing, since that doesn't seem like there is any direct scale to say "this place has good soil, this doesn't" and also maybe define the size thing as well. LurkerLordB 00:51, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Incas
I don't think you noticed, but I posted that I wanted a small bit of the Incan Empire as well. Since China's main purpose is to get Argentina, I took a part of OTL Chile that was in the south. Also, I thought it a bit unfair for China not to have a pathway to the Atlantic, so I decided to give them a small amount of Swedish Territory in the south and give Sweden a tiny amount of chinese in the north.LurkerLordB 14:50, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

I haven't made the map yet, but my strategy is to take over the entire empire. The plan is to take the area around Cuzco. Since the area is hard to invade, we'll just have to starve the city. At any rate, I was hoping to have borders with some of the black areas, but I am not entirely unhappy with the map Lurker proposed. CrimsonAssassin 00:41, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would look the best to just give China all of of the Argentine part except the French area, and give Naples the Part right above the "L" bend, and then give Sweden the northern part around Cuzco, but I figured that Sweden wanted a pathway from the Pacific to atlantic LurkerLordB 02:59, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Mamluks
Fine, we'll keep the original division and the land to the yemeni. --Galaguerra1 16:33, November 22, 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back!
I am glad to see that you are back in the game. Both China and Japan faced going grey due to no use the turn after next and Baltika shortly afterwards. At least China won't bite the dust. :-)82.2.77.221 08:59, November 25, 2011 (UTC) AKA Billy.

Just pop in sometimes. Go for it. Could I also post for the CoA when I pop in?? :D Imperium Guy 09:23, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

The colour of the CoA should be yellow, China's colour. Not orange, it looks kinda horrible!! :D Imperium Guy 09:29, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

You are to destroy every area which was formally Hindustan's and who have rebelled. They should be back in the Coalition colour. We have a HUGE army. We should use it to crush and mush all the rebels. :D Imperium Guy 09:32, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Finally, a WORLD power!! :D Imperium Guy 09:45, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Flanders
May we can conquest Flanders together. Yo may have the northern part and I the french-speaking part... Show me your plan to divide it and I'll tell you if I'm agree. --Galaguerra1 23:18, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Jaeden has already given me the control of Burgundy, as vassal. So, I already own that land. I'm agree with your proposal. Let's invade and retake Flanders! --Galaguerra1 03:09, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

West Africa
It would be unrealistic for the borders to have remained the same for so long and then to suddenly change all at once. It would be more realistic for them to have changed during the course of the game. What is concerning me, however, is your constant use of the phrase "leave it to me" in this situation. Every time this is brought up, you say the same thing again and again. This seems to show that you don't want anyone else's imput on what you do (other than Kenny's mandatory imput). Scandinator, it seems unfair for you to just take over what was my idea and not allow any of my ideas or Lx's ideas in. However, just recently you did begin to talk about it on the talk page after I made my remarks there, which I appreciate, but it did seem before as if you wanted to just take over the whole idea, having us all leave it to you, and then just do what you pleased. LurkerLordB 03:40, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Map
Sorry about your pxels on New Sweden, i added them, but it was on the wrong place. when you merged Thoorland and New Scandinavia, you named it New Scandinavia, and i confused New Sweden and New Scandinavia. i'm sure that those 293 px intended for New Sweden went to new Scandinavia instead.i need to transfer them?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:28, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Good on you. The world WILL be yellow!! :D Imperium Guy 09:08, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

New Stability System
I would prefer you to wait to take it over. I appreciate how dedicated you are to the game, but I would prefer if there was a little time where I can see exactly what works and doesn't work in the system. Last time I wasn't exactly on the boat with you and that caused problems. So no. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:12, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

Egypt's deal
Egypt will join the TC as a SAR type region (like Thailand did), but on 1 condition- Baltonordia get a similar deal in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. What they decide to do with it is there business, but Egypt wants them offered it, just in case they also wish to join as a SAR.The River Nile-2 15:07, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Note.
I'm joining the alliance, I'm after Libya, Crete and Chad next turn!The River Nile-2 15:05, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oman-Persian War
I recenlty (and forgot to tell you this so I thought I type it in for you) declared war on Oman. May you kindly please do an alogythm for me? RandomWriterGuy 04:32, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Second Swedish Civil War/ War of Swedish Sucession
I would definitely not want to be in your place right now. It's just shameful that our fellow users have plans to divide Sweden amongst themselves while you are still playing. And while I will not get directly involved in your civil war, let me assure you that you have a near-infinite amount of Vietnamese volunteers to help you defeat the warring factions. Would you be able to accept a Swedish Republic? It would be free of undue Vietnamese influence, which is more than I can say about the rest of the players involved.

Yank 21:34, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

What if the Republicans re-established an independant Scotland in exchange for renouncing their claims to Sweden's government.

Yank 00:25, December 10, 2011 (UTC) Oh wow I thought you quit or something. What can I do to prevent the other nations from carving Sweden up? CrimsonAssassin 01:01, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

AvAr
Mwahhhaa!!!! :D Imperium Guy 10:28, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Scotland
You cannot retake Scotland! That was the agreement, that Scotland would remain totally independent. Remember, you can't do anything now without Galaguerra's approval, as he now controls your government, and his king, who is also king of Sweden, pledged to allow Scotland to remain independent. Furthermore, the Scots are not going to rejoice to be dominated again, they just fought a war for independence. This would be like The American Congress voting to rejoin Britain, totally ASB. That's why I am striking your post down, because it is totally implausible.

This is just like when you abused your moderator powers to attempt to get Prussia to break away from another player nation right after you lost it by a treaty, or when you defied a moderator action to attempt to gain Finland back after being punished by losing it. You need to accept the fact that Sweden will sometimes lose territory, and you need to respect the agreements we reach on the talk page. It's no fun playing the game with someone who just ignores all of our agreements whenever they cause his nation to lose territory. If Sweden just keeps conquering land after land and never loses, it will end up like what you did on Imperial Europe 2. LurkerLordB 22:28, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Axis vs Allies Revised
What is the name of the new timeline?He's Laptop Zombie, he's right here next to you! Send mails to him through his mailbox, and being an admin, here is what he did at this wiki. 04:18, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Africa
This is a good way to disencourage colonialism.However, when exactly Guinea was estabilished?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:10, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

I still don't really like that you've declared yourself master of Africa. I think it would be better for every turn any moderator who wants to just has events occur in Africa & other unclaimed territories and then we can just see what happens, instead of you saying "OK, here's what's going to happen, leave it all to me". LurkerLordB 14:56, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Axis vs Allies Revised
The new page is created at Axis vs Allies Revised.

3rd Shahzrur War
I have recentyl declared the 3rd Shahzrur War. Can I asks you to make a alogythm for it? RandomWriterGuy 03:44, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

American Empire (Map Game)
I want to invite you to join my map game

DeanSims 22:41, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan-Guangxi Relations
What communist nation is this in particular, one thats already made or one that your planning to make? If its based out of Jiangxi or Fujian, especially Fujian, I would have to say that maybe you should look for another area for your nation as canon. Canon dictates that this was pretty much a disaster area and was under some pretty uncivilized regimes. If its a state based further inland in southern China or another SouthEast Asian state I'm interested in your proposal and working with you but Taiwan would definitely be hostile, maybe not physically but this "expedition" would likely get a staredown from the Taiwanese. They claim all of China sans Tibet already, but southern China is definitely their backyard even outside their official borders.

Nevertheless I'd be interested to hear your ideas and please contact me. I will be posting this on both your talkpage and mine but I'd prefer if we talked in this one. Arstar 04:37, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sure, lets discuss it on my page.

LG recommended the location to me. I have started work on my Guangxi article. It is near Yunan and claims five of the Chinese provinces; Gunagxi, Guangdong, Hunan, Guizhou and Sichuan. Its communist but moving away from that, when the supreme leader dies the state will become a technocracy. I have loose control over half of Guangxi and Guizhou and part of Hunan.Scandinator

For the record, Scan, Kenny has no say in Macau's affairs. Lordganon 07:35, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

It's Arstar's article. If he's not around, talk to me about it. Lordganon 08:12, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks LG for offering to help. To Scan, I would size it down quite a bit. Don't build nations by provinces but rather by the towns you are going to have rule the rest. If you could make a map that would be great. Meanwhile I think that all of the Chinese nation editors (including you) should get together to discuss the future of the region since progress on it has been slow moving after 1983DD's recession around January '11. All I'm going to say is that In terms of my two nations in the area "Imperial China" and Taiwanese China" I think that Taiwanese China might get all land-claimy but the Imperialist China might form an uneasy alliance with Guangxi so long as they are anti-Soviet. Arstar 20:45, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Considering I created the nation, and Yank and Arstar built a basic frame article, then Kenny wrote 90% of the content, I think its unfair to say he has no say in the article considering both I and Yank support Kenny.Oerwinde 00:49, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with LG. Just because he wrote a lot of it, he still defied the conditions that I gave him in terms of editing it. Arstar 01:16, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Re:Doomsday Tibet and Yunan relations with Guangxi
Well, I believe that they would not be hostile to them, as they do conduct trade with Nanchung and the Dragon State, so having a fellow communist government next to them wouldn't hurt. They'd probably try and convince them to join their "War with the USSR", though.--Vladivostok 09:18, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I thought I was done with 1983: Doomsday… I have only a narrow band that Arstarpool allowed me to edit within Macau, so you would have to ask him, if he is even active…  But as self-proclaimed Chief of South Chinese exploration, I will take an educated guess. Macau is willing to create relations with the nation, as Macau can provide valuable outlets for trade in return for raw materials and food. The politics would be very interesting, though, given the diverse parties. I leave you to be creative, just don't stray too far off the article. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:31, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Why are you so possessive of the moderator events?
Scandinator, I am recently becoming upset with your behavior once again, but I don't want to start anymore fights, so I want to resolve this peacefully for once. First off, you are not in charge of the moderator events in Principia Moderni, you have no more authority over them than any other moderator. Yet you appear to be very possessive over the moderator events that occur in the game. First, you have now twice changed my posts, without even giving any reason for or even mentioning it beneath it, which should be a common courtesy''. ''Furthermore, you now have recently begun adding them hours in advance to make sure you get to add them first. I'm tired of you doing the vast majority off the moderator events and controlling all of them, and now you control stability and industrialization and the algorithm as well, you just control too much, it seems like you are in charge off everything. That's why you get into so many disputes with other players, it's because anything anyone does is somehow connected to you Can't you please let some other moderators do some things? And at least leave a comment when you change other moderator's posts so it doesn't look like you're doing it for no reason? LurkerLordB 22:03, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Also, the reason Prussia would be seperate would be for cultural reasons. Mazovia was never part of Anglo-Germany, they would have recieved no English culture like the rest of Germany, and any cultural changes that occured Anglo-Germany wide would be lost. Furthermore, the northern part was ruled by Japan for more than a century. Massive Japanese cultural diffusion would have occured, including that entire region being heavily Schmittist. Many other aspects of Japanese culture would have been absorbed as well. Furthermore,  after Japan lost control, Sweden took over, so they then may have absorbed a small amount of Swedish culture from that brief period (not enough to give them any loyalty to Sweden after so many years though). Finally, Anglo-Germany did take over, but by then Prussia would culturally be no closer to the rest of Germany than the Czechs and Swiss would be, perhaps even less so due to the extremely foreign nature of Japanese culture. Neither the Czechs nor the Swiss would be able to control parts of Germany that are not dominated by their culture, especially if the German parts of their nations outnumbered the Czech/Swiss parts. Your current situation has Prussia controlling an area which outnumbers it, yet possesses a culture with vast religious, cultural, and perhaps even language differences (as Prussian may now be a combo of Japanese and German). They would be unable to control that territory, and it would break away and join either Brandenburg or Saxony.

Plus, Brandenburg was Zagoria's nation. If he did come back post break-up, it seems that it would at least be nice to give the nation he controls a seaport so that he isn't totally surrounded and landlocked. Furthermore, having a superlong, skinny Prussia like that just looks ugly in shape. Why would they have that tiny length to the Atlantic Ocean? I can see how you, not considering cultural differences, would have them take over north Brandenburg, but why that narrow strip to the Atlantic? It just seems strange, and it would make more sense for the unique Prussian culture to break away to form their own nation of just them, just like the unique Czech and Swiss cultures did when they broke away. Imagine the Swiss controlling all of Austria and Bavaria. It just doesn't work. LurkerLordB 05:00, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

States of America 4 Algorithm Request
Please make an algorithm for the CSS/American Union War against Michigan and post it on the talk page of the game if you have any time. Thanks,

DeanSims 16:01, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Stability List
I know you said you had trouble with the table formatting (with the visual mode edtting of tables half-broken and the source mode really complicated, I can see why) so you said you weren't going to post the stabilities of the nations, however, this makes it hard to estimate whether or not it is feasible to enter a war, or whether or not your nation is about to collapse into revolts. You don't have to do a table, you can just make something like: Example: Or, you could put them on some other site, but it's invonvenient to be inable to make our own algorithms. I'll even make a table if you want me too and give me the numbers. LurkerLordB 22:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nation-CSS-Algorithm Points
 * Naples-7-25

Naples' current government started after the the 2nd Neapolitan civil war, in 1751. I'll try and get some of the other ones as soon as I can... LurkerLordB 22:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC) These are the only ones I can definitely choose the start date for right now, I'll post an announcement for people to update it as soon as they can. LurkerLordB 23:08, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naples-1751 (Carlo overthrown)
 * Turan-1715 (Ottomans defeated and replaced)
 * Sweden-1747 (union with France)
 * France-1747 (union with Sweden)
 * China- 1732 (government reform & new nobility&provinces after a rebellion)
 * Nippon- 1750 (independent from Vietnam)

Say, what's the Neapolitan current stability (for the algorithm)? I need to see whether or not it would be feasible to attack Malaysia now, or if I should wait until later. LurkerLordB 01:12, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

We really need a list, like 3 wars are currently stalled because no one knows the stability. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:08, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

wait, does the new stability for player-states even include population as a factor at all??????-Lx (leave me a message) 03:30, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Say, what would my stability be in 1801, assuming that every year until then I build up my military and industrialize more due to having to increase production for the buildup and have no more expansion? And can I count on Sweden and its vassals, puppets, and union states to be ready for war by then to honor their agreement with Naples. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:38, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

About Finland and Kola
The new Emperor of France and King of Sweden, August I Harold, asks the Chancellors of Sweden and its colonies for a confirmation of their loyalty. He also questions how will a war with Kola benefit the Parliament and the Crown? He also says that, if the war is fought and Finland is conquest, it must remain as a independent state under the Emperor (who will be Grand Prince), as Sweden. --Galaguerra1 22:48, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I thought so and I diceded I will support you in your campaign to conquest Kola and Finland, but you msut support the campaign of Burgundy to conquest Lombardy and let me conquest Wales for myself. --Galaguerra1 19:39, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Say, how long is Sweden going to remain under the rule of the French King? For it will take some planning as to who gets what new territory gained. LurkerLordB 22:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking about Saarland, or even Hannover. Anyway, I'm ot planning to kep Sweden under my control for ever. Just until Scan considers it necessary. --Galaguerra1 03:00, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

If Sweden&France will promise to help Naples in the war against Malaysia and not get any territory, Naples will help them in this war with no plans to get territory (or, you can give me something in this war and I'll give you something in mine, but I prefer the first offer). Anyways, we should not help Poland in their war, and then wait right afterwards for Russia to beat them, then when Russia has the lowest stability due to the war draining their CSS and their expansion penalty, we attack them at their weakest & take them out. Helping Poland is a lost cause. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:58, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Naples, my 2 vassals, and Israel will all join in the war to help Sweden, that give you +9. My main goal is to take out the Malays. Getting more of the Dravidan-speaking parts of Swedish India would be good too, but getting help with Malaysia is more important. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:46, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

Adopting
You do not need to ask anyone before adopting a page in DD. Go for it.

Most powerful'd be a stretch, imo.

Take into account everything on the ANZC page, and remember that Australia is a member-state of an organization even more unified than the otl EU.

Lordganon 01:35, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Map
Because when you posted the new map, i had already modified the older map.I will see if i can adopt the new map for 1790.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:10, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

I know. but the map of 1785 was so changed that adding the changes of would revert a lot of progress on the map. i copied and pasted some things of the map, because i didn't want to do it all over again, and there were a lot of errors on the European borders (on the old one).Oh, and i will use the new, as i have already updated it. but this ain't a guarantee that the to-be-used version (new map with the progress that was added to the old) is totally fixed. i will look for more errors later.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:55, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Puppet States on Principia Moderni
Hey, can I get a reason why you think the current system is superior to any of my alternatives? Because the current systesm is really unfair, a user with 1 vassal state is penalized as much as a user with 2+3 puppets. Every other factor into war, good or bad (expansion, military buildup, amount of allies, etc.) all depends on how much of the factor there is or has been. The vassal/puppet state negative is the only thing which has absoutely no change based on amount. Plus it is open to abuse. I don't really care what alternative there is, but why is there such a big support for not changing the system? I don't get it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:24, January 29, 2012 (UTC) I don't see why 2 would be so dificult to implement, just for the war (not for the purposes of nation collapse or whatever) subtract the number of vassals/puppets from the total score they get from stability. Or, even better, just not put it with stability at all and have a seperate line in the algorithm for "number of vassals (-1 for each vassal)" which the number would be put (it would have the same effect, and probably be easier to keep track of). Would that change be enough? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:03, January 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Good Point, I hadn't really liked this one after thinking about it.
 * 2) Each puppet adds +2 on military, this subtracts -1 for each puppet. So basically what this does is halve the benefit you get from the puppets.  So I don't see why it would be equating to instantly losing, unless you got so many you had less than 1 stability, and since that would be like 20 puppets, that's the problem I'm trying to fix.
 * 3) The point would be to make people make less puppet nations, so if they wanted territory from the black portion they would have to not have as many puppet states.
 * 4) I agree it is probably unrealistic, it was just a prior way to manage large numbers of puppets so I thought I'd include it.
 * 5) THe one I'm trying to delete.

Behavior
Scan, I've warned you time and time again to be more civil, and to quit making demands. And, you've now passed the extreme tolerance I've been practicing with you.

I have blocked you for a day, as a result. I suggest that you take it to heart, and remember your mistake. You have been allowed the privilege of being able to still edit this talk page. Do not abuse it.

Lordganon 15:47, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Message at Principia Moderni.
Check this out. RandomWriterGuy 22:34, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

I wanted to remind you that I severed relationships to Sweden for its actions against Russia, which is making it now a complete threat to the Russian people. Relationships will be restored if Sweden apoligizes for its actions. You already gained revenge when you lost the first war to Russia by winning the second one. There should be no point in waging a third war!

Also, Vietnam broke relations with me when it heard about my actions. RandomWriterGuy 06:00, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Principia Moderni Talk Page
Did you intend to delete a bunch of stuff from the page? And It doesn't appear to be an archive attempt, as only new stuff was taken away and old stuff was kept. And you deleted the table that you asked for. I didn't want to undo your edit because you'd added some new stuff. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:32, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Australia
Oh, sorry. I did not know that. Sure, you can take it. Enclavehunter 15:11, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed he had let you - but quite frankly, despite your declared intentions, you never adopted the page - he did - so you had nothing to stand on.

Anyhoo....

Yes, I'm aware how large they are - cities in the Americas are the same way. Though the only one of the three that would have much of anything left is Sydney. The other two really aren't that big.

Something in the 400kt range is probably good for all three cities - but don't mention any specific sizes like that. Heck, from what I can remember, the Soviets really didn't have many, if any, that size.

A blast that size would probably eliminate an area about 7-10km on all sides, nearly outright.

There are a few factors you're missing, mind.

First, strikes like that set fires. Tons of them. Much of the remaining city would be burned out. Have a look at maps from Hiroshima and Nagasaki for more on this. This will be made worse by a lack of power, and water, to fight them. Even bringing in outside help will only do so much - they are really going to have to burn themselves out, mostly.

Each strike actually causes EMP damage, though localized. Most of the power, and other wired things, in areas directly adjoining the blast zones are going to be damaged, if not down.

Fallout lasts for weeks, not only one day. And the blasts themselves will screw around with the winds a little, too. Add to that that most fallout is actually deposited by higher altitude winds - at most, you'll be able to find out the surface ones. Plus, there will be large areas on the surface that are radiated through the blast, too.

Far as I can tell, in Perth and Sydney, the wind will blow the majority to sea. Melbourne, it will largely go to the sea too, though areas inland and to its northeast will be effected. Either way, bet on the vast majority of fallout going whichever way the winds normally blow.

Add the impact of people fleeing, too.

Towns like you're talking about just aren't possible, all things told. In addition to the 7-10km, add about the same for the fires and general chaos, though this will vary greatly depending on the territory. Most of the urban areas will burn, even if beyond this, though that is not 100%. And, downwind, you'd have irradiated land that would extend this even further.

For instance, of the two satellite cities you quote, only one would be at real risk of burning, etc. From what I can see, Sutherland is separated from the rest of the urban area, except for a bridge - it would escape the fires, by and large. However Blacktown, while further away, is connected through an urban environment, and thus far more vulnerable to all of these factors.

Lordganon 15:56, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

You've got to remember, though, Scan, that we're talking about 1983, not the present. Roads like that are a fairly new convention.

Doubtful that they would stop the fires, if they'd been built, which as I said, I doubt. Slow down, yes - but not stop, by any means.

Spared the radiation, maybe. But the winds will do nothing to the fires, all things told.

Scan, you're talking about three massive hits to the infrastructure. The entire water system in these areas is going to be more or less gone. You see, fire equipment needs water pressure in the pipes to function. This pressure is going to be largely non-existent in the days after DD, especially closer to the blast zones.

Add to that, the thing that would suffer most from EMP damage is actually the power lines. They will get shorted out far further than any other damage occurs. For instance, during Soviet atmospheric testing in Siberia, EMP damage to electronics only happened inside a certain radius. Yet, power lines got shorted out by current from the blast passing through them in Central Asia.

Now, I'm not saying it'd be remotely that bad, here. But there's going to be damage from that, though by no means even at all, for pretty well the 30-50km radius you describe.

Basically, the few surviving areas of Perth - it's actually small enough so this won't be much of anything - will avoid the fallout, but get the fires. Yes, people will survive. But almost no buildings will remain very habitable.

My estimates for Sydney would have an absolute blast radius - i.e. pretty well nothing left - of about 10km from where the bomb hit. This would remain entirely impassible today. Depending on terrain and surviving infrastructure, the fires will go anywhere from 5-20km beyond that. My guess, the flames will get stopped before Blacktown, but not by much. The evacuation zones around there would more than likely include that particular one.

About the closest I can see them letting people stay are the towns of St. Marys, Prestons, and Sutherland (along with the little towns around them)

And, remember that the ANZC article even talks about these areas being more or less abandoned, with new cities being built to both replace them and house the survivors/evacuees.

Lordganon 03:14, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to respond, was a massive amount of edits to go through, comment on, etc. and was busy last night and yesterday afternoon, lol.

You can find the simulator we use around here at this location.] Fair warning: There are limits on what it can do, and what it shows, which are in sections below the simulator itself, that you need to read first. Last thing I want is another argument with someone over that stuff.

At most, they would have an hour to get to a shelter before the blast - and given all things, probably more like 10-30 mins. You'd be lucky to get a thousand in there, quite frankly, before it hit. And after it hit.... well, there's one aspect of those things most people miss: if there's a direct hit, they are pretty useless. Not only that, but they have to survive until help arrives, and be able to get out - both of which are far harder than you'd think. Add to that that it appears to be right under the region where I'd expect ground zero to be - they're gone.

Looking at a map of that road, in the west it will definitely mark some sort of boundary in some spots - it's about as far as I figure the fires would get, and not even that far in some spots. There's places that it look like it would cross over, too - wooded areas on either side, etc. that would catch from embers, which would be a worry all over, quite frankly. Same goes for any spot it can go over or under (bridges, etc.) In the east, the blast radius itself would go over the road, and the fires spread beyond.

Sydney, and most of its suburbs, would be destroyed. The southernmost, and westernmost of them would have a chance. But the rest, pretty well gone. The government would have evacuated the remaining ones for a couple of weeks, too, minimum. I also expect that this blast would be larger than the other two, as well, given that the city is so much larger.

Melbourne, definitely gone.

Well, the simulator's blast site in Perth - nothing to do with the city, the sites are pretty arbitrary in it, so remember that too - is northeast of where it would have probably went off. Likely, it would have been aimed for the harbor regions, causing waves that make its effects worse. As noted, it's northern areas and suburbs are pretty well gone. To the south.... well, the suburbs are going to get burned out, by and large. Really, 95% in this context... you may as well say 100%, because the answer's basically the same. By my guess, in the region you're not going to see any settlements closer than Rockingham.

Lordganon 02:25, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that'd be assuming that they really got any warning. I can tell you right now that they didn't. And that such things never work as they are planned. 15m down would still be a risk from the ground burst, quite honestly, given the location.

You're missing, however, one of the things I said: that would be more or less ground zero for the blast. The entrances would be blocked off, likely fused shut. Whatever's above, severely irradiated. Even if the entrance is, by some miracle, still unblocked, they'd never be able to leave without dying - and even if they could not die nearly instantly, they'd never get out of the radiated zone. Nor would anyone be able, even in suits, to get to them. Radiation would get them even if they stayed put, too.

It's the biggest problem with such shelters, really. While good in theory.... ones in hit cities like that, if under where ground zero is likely to be, will just kill anyone inside. All that will happen is it takes longer. Those ones are only any real use for actual fallout, not the blasts themselves. It's kinda like that "duck and cover" bit - useless in a blast, good for some of the aftereffects.

There's still enough population to have the states. Moreover, canon has said for a long time that they all still exist.

Lordganon 09:37, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

More so, I'd say the subway station(s) would be fused shut in some form like that, and blocked off with debris besides. Of course, getting into the last little bits of the stations would be lethal, but that's ignoring that aspect.

That area of Sydney is going to be irradiated, even too much for access with suits, for a few decades still. Their story will be a long time coming, I'm afraid.

Lordganon 15:20, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

You can't control other players' nations!
Toeh Ngoa Nyoing and Iceland are both nations controlled by Hanthawaddy, thus they are player nations. Stating that they agree to join with your nation is controlling another player nation to an unnacceptable extent. You can take territory from them through war, but you cannot take them apart by controlling them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:29, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Principia Moderni/Invasion of Brandenberg
Hey there, this is Prussia. I was going to declare war on Brandenburg in hopes of expanding my nation as well as attempting to remove the threat that the current King of Brandenburg currently holds on Central Europe. Since we have a military alliance, I was hoping I could have your support in this war. I will be declaring war in 1806, please let me know your intentions.

Hey, I'm not sure if I should go to your or someone else, but can I get an algorithim check for the Prussian-Brandenburgian war, I'm not sure if we are supposed to do ourselves or if a mod is supposed to do it. I wanted to see how much territory I could take? JonAllenMichael

Me
I'm Laptop Zombie. I've just opened a map game. Here it is.

Map
I would like to ask you where you got the map for Guanxi for? I know you probably cropped it, so that's why I am asking you where did you get the base map from (with the whole of China)? :D Imperium Guy 18:56, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. :D Imperium Guy 10:45, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

South America
Where do you plan to expand with Fjordland? is because i plan to expand more with Uruguay after it becomes independent.At least, i plan to control most of Northern Argentina (Fjordlaaand owns most of the south, along with the Chinese colony), specially San Miguel de Tucumán (unless, obviously, that the Tucumán area is under control of Fjordlaand, which, according to my estimative, may not be.)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:28, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, since right now i'm going to sleep, and i won't be able to correct the map until tomorrow, you can do it.ah, and about France, i wasn't sure if the country in union was France or Russia.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:19, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithim
Hey, I'm not sure if I should go to your or someone else, but can I get an algorithim check for the Prussian-Brandenburgian war, I'm not sure if we are supposed to do ourselves or if a mod is supposed to do it. I wanted to see how much territory I could take? I've been waiting for a response for 2 days now, any way you could help me out? JonAllenMichael 16:24, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Guangxi
I don't really see why it should happen now. The articles do not contradict each other in any way. It has always been standard practice to just add in the required information to other relevant articles after a new one has been graduated. Which I will do. Vladivostok 08:29, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Scan, I have to say that them getting to the sea, as a goal is probably fine. But, as for it actually happening.... no way that would be feasible. That's just too much of an expansion. Lordganon 23:31, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Stability Table
I know that you are really busy, but you promised a completed stability table a week ago and it is barely 1/8 finished. I can respect that you have too much else going on to make it, but we really need this table, and if you are too busy to do it, then you really should either symplify the system or pass it on to someone else, or something, as we need that table LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:39, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much!! :) LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:00, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can you at least fill out Naples' for the current war? LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:48, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwiil's Replies
Turan bought claims to Greenland. Moreover, if I attacked Russia, I should be getting the advantage. Russia attacked me, very simple.All I did was incite revolts. Saamwiil 23:40, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

You obviously don't remember, but, i did.Saamwiil 22:14, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Italy in DD
Well, Sicily does need some work done to it, which I'd let happen, as would Venice. There's also several destroyed cities that one would be nice to have an article on, and the Northern Alpine Areas too.

And, I figure that sometime in the next year most of the IPA-granted Zone will get turned into its own Republic of some sort. I'll let you know when that is, I'd have no problems with working it with you.

Lordganon 07:14, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, as it happens, all three of those fall under my jurisdiction, lol. I'm always willing to listen to ideas, and maybe after I approve them, some contributions. Lordganon 09:12, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Your hypocritical actions towards RWG
You attacked RWG for expanding without the algorithm and for having strange religious combinations in his nation. However, Sweden is by far the worst offender of these two cases in the whole game. Sweden has expanded and vassalized nations without the algorithm numerous times, many without even a few years of build up prior to the vassalization: In addition, for almost all of these nations, there was no civil disarray, and there was precious little in-game build up. RWG only expanded through vassalizing portions (not even the entirety) of nations which had been plunged into civil war for years. He devoted turns and turns in the game to sending aid to these nations. He then devoted turns and turns after he gained them to incorporating them further into his nation (while Sweden just gained the territory then never said anything else). His expansion was much more reasonable than your own. Furthermore, Sweden rules over a hodgepodge of religious minorities as well In conclusion, you have done much, much more annexation and vassalization without the algorithm than RandomWriterGuy has. Sweden has been gobbling up territory this entire game without having one algorithm except for when dealing with player nations. Your religious differences are almost as intense as his as well. You possess no right to start numerous moderator revolts against him, for such actions are nothing short of hypocritical. I hope you can see how RWG has done nothing that you haven't done a hundredfold. Note that I am not stating that I am totally innocent of having strange religious occurences and strange vassalizations, just that you have the greatest extent of such things so it makes no sense for you to attack RWG for it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:59, February 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * The taking of the Japanese European colony.
 * The taking of Oldenburg
 * The taking of Denmark
 * The conquest of Mazovia
 * The vassalization of Estonia
 * The vassalization and eventual annexation of England
 * The vassalization and annexation of part of the territory of Hanover
 * The vassalization of Scotland
 * The failed attempt to take Livonia
 * The failed attempt to take Prussia back from the Germans
 * The failed attempt to get Kurdistan to join Arabia
 * The failed attempt to regain vassalization of Scotland
 * The in-progress attempt to take over Flemland
 * The in-progress attempt to take over Toeh Ngoa-Nyoing
 * The in-progress attempt to take over Iceland
 * They converted from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodox for no apparent reason
 * They reconverted back to Catholicism
 * They have a large Saami Pagan population
 * They possess a large Schmittist population (which is not Christian!)

Also, can we please have the stability chart actually completed? And independent colonies like Ricasolia need to be added to the chart as well, they are not puppet states. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:58, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

The only places where he expanded without the algorithm were in East Yemen and north Brunei. He tried to expand without the algorithm in India, but we made him use the algorithm. He hasn't actually done anything in the UAA areas yet. They are far away, so that is why Collie has them the lighter color on the map, they are puppet states so he'll get -2 on algorithms for them.

Christianity and Islam are converting religions. They believe that their path is the only existing path to heaven and that their goal must be to convert as many people as they can. That is why they convert and destroy so many older belief systems and religions. Buddhists (at least historically) sent missionaries for converts, but Buddhism would merge with the old beliefs and not just replace them. With the exception of the Hare Krishnas, most Hindus do not really convertLurkerLordB (Talk) 12:23, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Really, Persia hasn't gained that much territory without the algorythm. North Brunei only is about the size of Wales, and East Yemen, being mostly desert, probably has the same number of people living in it. The UAA is a thing of the past, Adal is really the only former state in which he has a chance of stabilizing (through siding with the Christian faction there). LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:03, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Lurk is right about everything. I mean LOOK AT THAT LIST: I didn't even vasslaize that much nations! Also, anyone attacking Persia (unless they're pretty close) will still have a hard time trying to invade me. I mean, I'M NOT TRYING TO INVADE! Vassalization is a peaceful process. I haven't declared war (but onyl joined wars) on anyone, and YOU SAID THAT I HAVE A LOW STABILITY SCORE.

My country has religious fredom. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT I DON'T.

Also, any nation can be vassalized regardless of distance, though the bigger the distance, the longer the vassalization process takes.

If this is some sort of vendetta aginst me, you're going to confess! If I feel bullied from trying to play this game, then SHAME ON YOU. RandomWriterGuy 23:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

"You may have vassal states subordinate to your nation, but contiguous to your nation. They are ruled by your first nation's government, but are allowed to keep their own interests. You may have up to two vassal states, and they are in the category of colonies. Size rules do not apply, nor do limits on the number of total colonies, except within plausibility." From the rules page, this means that vassalizing Brunei and Yemen or the UAA is illegal for Persia. Scandinator ( talk ) 05:13, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yemen and Brunei are currently being counted as puppet states, hence their color on the map. Anyways, it would be a lot easier to demonstrate why Persia's stability was so low if we had a table... (Hint hint) LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:06, March 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Vendettas require numerous incidents over time, this is nothing like what Kunarian did to Yank or something like that. You do have a low stability score, on account of your government being really old and you having expanded quite a bit. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:31, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't even trying to expand by war! I was trying to expand peacefully! WHy does that have a toll in my stability?! You didn;t have to face this, and yet you have so many vassals! RandomWriterGuy 01:34, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

The real reason your stability is low is that it has been 150+ years since you last had a government change. Having a government change would allow your stability to start increasing again, and erase expansion prior to the government change. Scandinator doesn't have to face that because his government changes have erased some of the expansion toll. All of yours since you first started playing have been compounded together. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:37, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Any expansion from the main nation and affiliated states (vassals, puppets, clients) count as -1 stability. Only colonial expansion does not count. Scandinator (talk) 04:31, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Stability Table
Scandinator, can we please get the stability table all filled out? You promised you were just double checking it a week ago, but it still isn't up. Can you either put it up or admit that it is too much work for you so we can try and make a simpler system? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:48, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Naundesa
You may not take the Toeh Ngoa Nyoing region without my permission. But I will make a deal with you. You can take over the region including Iceland, and the many many modern factories and cities in the area. However, you must make accomodations in New Hanthawaddy (on the Colombian-Venezuelan border) for the country of Naundesa to literally "move house" to the area. I need the ABC islands, and the territory as far east as OTL Carabobo province. But seriously, I never said you could take the country without my pemission. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:00, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm…OK, I'll take the Colombian colony and the Ecuadorian colony. Thanks. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:54, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

Australia
Hi, Scan, I just wanted to offer a few words of encouragement. It took guts to challenge the established story line on Australia and the resulting ANZC of 1983DD. I did a check on PM Hawkes and September 26th. It is certain that he was indeed in Perth on the 27th (OTL) watching the pre-breakfast coverage of the race of the America's Cup (the sudden death race having been made necessary on the 23rd local time). It is logical to assume that he had been there on holiday, but he is on record as being in Perth that morning. Would he have flown there just to watch the scheduled race on television? He probably flew in the week before, being on vacation like the rest of parliament. This information is crucial and will mean a bit of rewriting, to say the least.

Since Parliament was not sitting, and state assemblymen were not in session then even if the PM had flown on holiday on Monday (OTL), he would have arrived sometime mid-day after the bombs fell in TTL. Assuming he was in route, things would be a lot different even then. In the chaos (assuming for a moment that most of Parliament did not go home on holiday) getting things in order would be a monumental task for the Hawke government -- almost as chaotic as what Bush was facing at the same time. As I write this, I am sure you are working on your defense of your challenge. I will leave you to it, then, and wish you well. SouthWriter 21:23, March 30, 2012 (UTC)

Hi again, Scan. I answered your response to the above over at my talk page (it's a lot simpler for me to keep up). However, I think I will use this space to once again offer you encouragement. I see that Ganon is accusing you of having a bad attitude for just disagreeing with him. He reads your emphasis of words like "major" and "feasibility" as violating some rule about "tone and attitude." I don't see it that way, but I too have been accused of such, and worse. It may be that we cannot notice attitude problems when we have them, but one would think that goes both ways, huh?

At risk that Ganon is reading this, I will say this anyway. He is as capable of making "bad assumptions" as any of us. His degree in history gives him an edge, of course, but his assumptions are just as fallible as any of ours. You will have to back your statements when making claims or they will be batted down as foolishness. With Ganon, his authority stands on its own, but if you want to challenge what has been accepted, you need to have a strong case going in. "Likely" does not get very far in this genre. Sure, the battle cry coming from Ganon has been "when in doubt, nuke it" and its corollary, "if in doubt, they're dead,' but when it messes with canon material, you cannot kill off folk that easily. I found out a few months ago that one of my favorite characters was most probably not safe on Doomsday. I could have "saved" him, but only one of his possible locations was safe. If I had saved him, he would not have been in a place that would have lead to where he was placed, so he's gone.

That being said, it can be stated with some surety that governors would be living in their mansions and those mansions are near the center of the capital cities. Would they be home or at the capital buildings? They might surely escape more easily than the general public. The same goes for the PM and the GG, they would get warnings and get out of town if they could. However, they may not have had more than about 30 minutes warning. What can be stated, though, is that the government would be scattered. This is going to mean some major changes in the story as Brian has built it up at the main "Commonwealth of Australia and New Zealand" page. If the bulk of the leadership can be saved, then I'd say save them. The story, though, will have to get them back to the capital. The storming of the Soviet Embassy there will be a continent away for many of the politicians when this happens. This far along, the less you change, the better. This is what has been established as QSS and QAA. Without really good, even ironclad, evidence, it is better not to change what is written. And the reasons for changing assumptions should be just about as good.

What has been written in this case was probably written on bad assumptions. No thought to spring break was made, for sure, and the coincidence of the America's cup was not dealt with at all. These are big problems, and need to be dealt with. But a total remaking of Australia is probably out of the question. --SouthWriter 03:18, March 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the issue you raised is very interesting and I look forward to seeing what you find. We should always keep an open mind about adjusting or changing canon when it can be shown it is based on inaccurate information or flawed assumptions. That said, I have a suggestion if you have not already pursued it. Go to the library and look at copies of newspapers from September 24-27, 1983 for Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, and Canberra. Likely they would be on microfilm. This should help to plot or narrow down movements of people. I have done the same thing using newspaper archives online and at the Library of Congress in DC near where I live. It can be tedious research but very helpful in working on a article or supporting your thoughts. Good luck.--Fxgentleman 15:32, April 1, 2012 (UTC)

First, I apologise for indenting your comment without your permission, Fx. It makes it easier for me to follow the change in speakers in the string. Microfilm is a pain for most of us, for sure. Microfiche, where available is quite preferred. You are blessed to have access to the Library of Congress, and I, for one, l appreciate your due diligence in research. This is what it's going to take, though, to combat the notion that QSS is sacred. This is especially true since we have established the concept of "canon." In religious circles that is the ultimate in sacred material, and it seems that it is in the DD time line as well. "Heretics" are never welcome when the "gods" have spoken. I speak only partly in jest, but with the consensus of editors, this is the way that the collaborative effort of 1983DD works.

Right after I began editing I conceded that the accepted material seemed "wrong" in places, but I decided that I could work around almost anything in the interest of a good story. I have since tried hard to see things from new editors' points of reference giving preference, as I think about it, to those editors that live in the area being discussed. I even assumed wrongly, in the beginning, that 1983DD was mostly the work of Australians and South Americans. It just made sense to me. I know of two Brits who have contributed heavily to their home region, and Canadians that have dealt well with their nation. There are several South Americans as well, but you are the first Australian to offer your thoughts. I am sure that your knowledge will be quite valuable as we keep this time line alive.

Anyway, to my point, I concur with Fx. We cannot depend on "deals" to fix the time line. If you think Hawke was killed, you have to have him in the path of the bomb or its resulting fire storm by verifiable data. We know where he was on the morning after in OTL, so a schedule of his events on Monday the 26th is crucial. And then, you need to know what early warning he would have that missiles were coming toward Perth. Your research, so far, looks better than what the defender of canon has provided. If you have not contacted Brian yet, he is the caretaker of the ANZC and also a member of the "Brass." Another member of the Brass that worked on it is Ben. Both are open to suggestions and change when necessary. --SouthWriter 03:50, April 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Scan. I'm following closely, but don't want to 'butt in' on the main talk page. Your discussion about advance warning has had me wondering what kind of warning would Hawke have had anyway. Reagan had NORAD, but nothing like that exists for Australia. Here is a discussion in 2003 about whether Australia needed one. They figured even then that a nuclear attack (from China, not the USSR) was unlikely.

The only warning Australians would have had was general news reports coming in from the northern hemisphere. Unless there are tracking stations in the Philippines (likely taken out by attacks on that country, but check) warned them, the tracking station at Nurrungar in South Australia and the Pine Gap facility in Northern Territory are both too far south to take note of an incoming ICBM in to make a difference. If the cities were hit in separate waves, then there would be a general evacuation after the first strike. However, the articles as written state the times assuming a near similtaneous strike.

The Dongara stations northwest of Perth are only about 400 kilometers away. They would surely catch the incoming missile in their scans, but from how far out? Would there be satellite information available in 1983? These stations were available for the Soviet Space Station, but were they able to see over the horizon? And if so, by how much? These questions are necessary to determine how much of a warning officials had. We included the targets because they were on a cold-war era map of possible strikes, so it is possible that just international calls from the US and Britain may have been all that are needed. The picture might not be as bad as you are portraying it, but this information -- one way or the other -- might help. SouthWriter 21:42, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Here is Brian's email address. He said you can contact him there (altered to keep spammers away):

brianwdaugherty AT gmail DOT com

He is willing to work with you, assuming that Hawke escapes. SouthWriter 03:18, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

PM stuff
Hey Scan! I would like to ask you whether it is possible for you to give me the stability of Bharat and/or help fill out the algorithim of the Bharati-Spaniard Colonial War. The war is only over the colonies in Australia, and if Sweden can send in the maximum amount of help you can get, the Spaniard colony next to Nipponese Australia will become yours.

Also, here is a map of how the area which would mostly be OTL Germany should be split up between Prussia and Sweden. FP was going to put this on your talkpage to discuss it with you but I guess he never got round to it. Any discussions about this should be with him, Im just informing you about how it was planned to turn out.

Phew, all done, lol! :D Imperium Guy 21:45, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

To Sweden on PM
From the Kingdom of Dravidia: We are worried by the constant French aggression. The French, unprovoked, have declared war on Vietnam for the sole purpose of conquest. The French advocate against capitalism. Furthermore, Sweden itself is at threat, as the French are trying to force Sweden to grant Finland independence and trading rights, by force if necessary. We must stop the French. They have destroyed Naples. They have destroyed the former Hungarian colony in the Americas. If Vietnam falls, they will be unstoppable. Please, Swedes, aid the Vietnamese. Aid freedom. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:50, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Spain in Principia Moderni
I'm sorry for Manofsteele, and the polite thing to do would be for Imperium Guy not the attack the Spanish colony, but you can't make up a rule saying that people can't be attacked while they are gone. Imperium Guy used an algorithm, won the algorithm, and took the territory he won. You can't revert his map just because you don't want your friend to lose any territory while he's not there. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:39, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Manofsteele's Easter break is very long, is he not back yet? Is he coming back, or is Spain going to have to be rendered an NPC nation? LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:20, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Re-establishing Relations
I would just like to start off with an overdue Sorry for invading Spain's colony (I would message MofS but it seems like you can directly tell him). It was not chivalious but I really needed to have a bit of free space in Australia to expand and well taking over his colony was the only way I'm afraid. But now to the message from the parliament of Bharat:

"We would like to re-establish our wounded relations and would like to apologize on behalf of the former maharaja on his actions. We think that we can build good relations between our two prosperous countries and increase trading as well as the sharing of tech (my steam engine is still there, although we might update it before giving you blueprints).

However, we are able to inform you that we will be able to aid your war efforts in the Americas (and in the main war effort if you want) if you could support our invasion of the Russian colony in South America (ironic that Bharat is invading the same colony that they used as a springboad to launch their campaign in Onguayal). This will mean that we will cut all influence of Russia in South America and possibly NW North America."

What do you think? :/ Imperium Guy 18:00, April 20, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, you did it for the client states! BTW, whose facination are you taking about, mine or Doc's? I think Doc means to unite all the colonies in a Federation, probably post-WWII. I for one would also not give up my colonies. If you were asking me about my fasination, well it was because that it was the first landmass where I established my colonies!

BTW, what would your response be to my previous message? :D Imperium Guy 17:50, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

You have a deal! :D Imperium Guy 22:48, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

The Help you offered
If you really want to help, tell me two things: 1) Do you play Europa Universalis 3? 2) Did you play it before? Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 17:27, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

Also, check out the offers by NPC nations. You've got plenty of alliance offers. I've simulated the situation in Europa Universalis, and that's exactly the alliance requests I received. Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 18:53, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest getting EU3:Chronicles, since it has better gameplay and graphics and possibilities. Also, while you don't have it yet, you could do one little thing: You will have to sync the relations between nations. Like, if I put in Aragon page that its relation with France is 65, then you go to France page and change the relation with Aragon to 65. Could you do it? :) Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 04:01, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't look great. It IS great. Also, it's really easy to learn, but is even more easier if you played other Paradox games(AKA Victoria II which you have played already), which include Hearts of Iron 3, 2, 1 ; EU1 EU2 etc. Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 04:49, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Also, Ottomans may take Athens if you won't protect it. Same with Crete :P Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 04:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Nah. I want to keep it like this actually. If we would make a new page, we would also have to update it frequently too, which means updating Nation Page, that page, and Main page - if you know what I'm talking about. And I also think it looks more professional and clean this way. Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 04:56, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure now, if we really need that treasury system, where everything has specific cost. I think we should change incomes from numbers to High, Medium and Low, to see how many soldiers can they recruit and how many can they maintain. What do you think? Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 14:29, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sweden break-up in Principia Moderni
Sweden is really big in this game, and they rule over a lot of different nations. So, suffice to say, they will not stay a single, united nation forever (neither will many other nations in the game). So, I was wondering if you had a plan to lose some territories in the future? I was thinking about some stipulations this would have. So, by region: If you have a plan to grant some of these areas independence, you can just tell me (don't make it ridiculous though, like keeping them until the very last turn of the game). If you want to dispute these observations I've made above, message me too. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:33, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sweden obviously wouldn't break away from itself, lol.
 * Norway and Denmark are so similar to Sweden, and have been under Swedish control of so long, it would actually be somewhat implausible for them to have micronationalist movements and try to break away.
 * The former Japanese colony which is right next to Denmark is so small semi-autonomy would probably be enough to appease it.
 * England and the German territory, however, would not be so easily stopped. Both are of a different branch of the Germanic languages, both have not been under Swedish rule for that long, and, furthermore, both have a glorious Anglo-German history to look back on and be inspired by, so they are unlikely to stay with Sweden to the end of time. Since they both also have fairly large populations (probably about the population of the OTL parts of Swedish Sweden itself), they would be unlikely to be reduced to semi-autonomy or another arrangement. Perhaps a commonwealth-type thing, or close, formal alliance, but with their own governments, would be most plausible.
 * The Saami areas have so few people, they wouldn't stand on their own. They haven't broken away in OTL, and they've been better treated in PM
 * The former Hanthawaddian colony on the north is between you and Detectivekenny.
 * Finland you have covered already
 * Flanders is most likely to break away. They have a very different religion, some Japanese and French influence lingering, again speak a different sort of Germanic language, and have not been under Swedish rule for that long

OK, good, then I don't have to worry. :) LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:16, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you do that? ;D Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 12:50, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Mod page is what I think ruins the actual view of the map game. Just me knowing who is a mod is enough. I don't want people to focus on taking over mod spots rather than playing their nation roles. I hope you understand? :) When you get a game, let me know. I'll make you a mod and you'll know what kind of actions are there in EU3. Doctor261  (Talk to Doctor261) 13:17, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have already invaded the colony! :/ But I think I might be able to drag a few nations into this war. I have a bit of influence in Nippon and Brunei, but the other nations might be a bit harder to drag into the war. Korea would only be dragged in if we could promise it (Russian) Manchuria and Vietnam, I don't know how. Persia wants Kazakistan but the country is not completely stable. I will try to get Dravidia to join as well, but Bharat is definately involoved!! :D Imperium Guy 13:36, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I got NOMINATED??!! :O Imperium Guy 13:47, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

I have already promised my support!! :D Imperium Guy 10:46, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Why are we going to go to war with Russia again? BTW, could you posepone it 'cause I am about to invade Persia and I would like your support. :D Imperium Guy 13:38, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

Here is a map for the claims I would like to state for the invasion of Russian territory. The map shows how it will be different. :D Imperium Guy 13:27, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Guangxi News
Scan, both these guys are the PRC are known. The thought that they wouldn't know anything about the other, especially a rough location, is ludicrous.

Why on earth would they need info to go through Macaunese reps? Again, international access is something Guangxi has on its own. They can do their own announcements.

And, there's no way that they, as a landlocked state, could send ships anywhere. They have no ports or land borders with anyone, and the Pearl River isn't passable to the ocean.

You need to do some edits, methinks.

Lordganon 03:31, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't really matter if they're the only ones that they have "significant" relations with. Still makes absolutely no sense, and is not plausible.

Hauling boats overland? Sketchy, at best - and something that wouldn't work. Boats designed for inland water don't work on oceans, at all. They'd be reps going to Macau, and then in their ships from there.

Apologies for forgetting about the other note. Area would get fallout really bad - very unlikely a state could possibly exist. Too close to raiders and such places, in my opinion, too.

Still have to say that you're not going to find many, if you find any at all - which I doubt - home locations in Australia.

And the answer to Italy and Egypt is, at this time, no.

Lordganon 06:29, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly why we should close all other map games and play Principia Moderni. Doctor261 ''' (Talk to Doctor261) 09:23, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Fair warning, Scan - any more expansion would be pretty well impossible for Guangxi at this time. Lordganon 06:12, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Even adding influence is too much, Scan. You just doubled the effective size with this invasion, after all. Nor is it going to poaching off another, stronger, state like that. Lordganon 11:45, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Better, but what I'm saying is that any such expansion is really not possible for a while. As I said, you've just doubled the size. That's a lot of space to digest and colonize. Lordganon 08:06, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Manofsteele
I'm sorry for him, but you just can't be gone for three weeks like he is. His nation is going to have to break up soon. If he wasn't your friend, it would have happened already, so its a bit unfair that he can get away with being gone for so long while no one else can because they don't have OTL friends who oppose any attempts to deactivate them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:54, April 28, 2012 (UTC)

PM
Please don't quit, that would be very stupid and I need a strong Sweden in my plan for Asian dominance. If you quit, it will also give Russia an upper hand in world affairs and that would be disasterous. If even this doesn't convince you, then I don't know what will. However, if you don't return could you atleast let Onguayal and Fjordlaand merge and become like so on a map? This will help Bharat stop Russia to some extent in the Americas. :( Imperium Guy 13:28, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * ...Imperium Guy, if you look at the map, you'll see that Russia doesn't own any territory on South America, and they have no interest in doing so, so I don't see how that would limit them in any way. In any case, Fjordlaand is an independent nation, and it would never submit to losing its independence without a war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:06, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I know that. Its what you call propaganda. And Fjordlaand is a vassal of Sweden, that is why I am asking Scan for it. :/ [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 15:09, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sweden no longer exists. Fjordlaand is independent from any other nation, Scandinator no longer controls it as he has quit the game. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:14, May 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fine, Onguayal will either invade it or merge with it (dynastical union). :P [[Image:1.png|23px]] Imperium Guy 18:22, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yes!!
Gansu agrees, extra rice this way please!! :D Imperium Guy 09:16, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Greetings from the NPRC
That's alright. I put on the NPRC's article that contact between the NPRC and Guangxi on June 20th, 2012. 2000 wouldn't have worked, as the government of the NPRC was isolationist. Would a date ranging from 2004-2012 work?

What industrial supplies would be available? The NPRC has a fair amount of rice and wheat, so food isn't really needed. However, the NPRC has access to significant amounts of water, Borax, cotton, tea, copper, iron, garnet, gold, and clean windpower. Do any of those interest you?

How exactly would the NPRC join? Or does 1983 have a page explaining that?

Canuck2012 01:43, June 25, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

What materials do you need the most? The NPRC needs machinery and newer weapons, so we are willing to trade for those items.

Canuck2012 00:32, June 28, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Okay. Copper, iron, tea, and cotton for weapons and machinery? It would be nice to have hydroelectricity aswell.

Canuck2012 16:56, June 28, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Mayan Doomsday
I've moved the Australian discussion to the talk page of that article, where you should have put it.

As for the rest....

Yes, I do use facebook.

...You do realize that the concept of "Mayan end date prophecies" is entirely fake, right? They do not exist.

If Iran blocked the strait, the whole world would force them back within days. The fuel going through there is just a touch too important. Heck, there's even US naval groups devoted to the area which would kill it off within hours if they tried.

Israel would not launch a "first strike" on Iran, especially for that reason, as it wouldn't effect them.

Even otl the Arabs are not able to invade Israel because of the Arab Spring, alongside, of course, the normal factors. If it was going worse in an atl, why on earth would they be able to do it? Simple answer is that they would not be able to.

Besides that, the simple fact is that the Israelis, even without using their nukes, are more powerful than those states combined.

Hezbollah, btw, is militarily insignificant.

Why would they randomly target Lebanon? That makes no sense.

Russia would not nuke in defense of Syria.

NATO would not fire in defense of Israel like that. Even more so, however, they would not fire on China randomly like that.

Basically, such a timeline wouldn't be possible.

As for help shaping it, the answer is no. Too many other things to do already. Advice, sure. But active help, no.

Lordganon 21:23, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I realize the Mayan end date prophecies are fake but an article about it would be pretty good.

Ok, I'll flesh out the POD and other events to make them more realistic closer to the date as I am currently rather busy studying for the University Entrance exams. Scandinator (talk) 23:08, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Glad you know that the idea is false - you'd be surprised at the number of people that believe that bunk. Lordganon 06:08, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Well there's been a million prophcies about the end of the world and there will be a million more. None are going to come true though. I mean there was all that panic about the year 2000 and then nothing happened and the rupture which was a scam. It's amazing what some people will believe... Scandinator (talk) 07:08, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

At least Y2K had some reasoning, lol.

But the Mayan "prophecies" don't even actuslly exist. Even the rapture stuff has that much, lol.

Lordganon 08:26, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

PM Swedish successor state
Hey Scan, I just gave part of Wonderlaand independence and wondered if you wanted to take it over as its a Swedish successor state. Nippon retained the Solomon islands but the rest of Wonderlaand that you gave me has gained independence. You could try to take back the rest of Wonderlaand in the western pacific if you want. Anyway just wondering if you wanted to come back & play VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:29, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you can correct, and i also saw other errors, specially with the African states (bigger than usual [Kanem-Bornu/Benin], and usually, with the wrong shapes[particularly noted on Songhai]).--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:56, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, cya in PM2 then. Good luck with your entrance exams! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:58, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Your sources
Are these sources somehow related to Europa Universalis 3 or Crusader Kings 2? :D:D:D  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 11:48, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I played as Poland too and eventually defeated ottomans with my allies. D:  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 04:05, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

PMII Dynastic Union
I was just going to go off of Principia Moderni, where we just had dynastic union, even though some nations dominated (like Russia dominated Lithuania in their union, even though they were officially equal). Though you do make a good point, so if the union was really unequal, I suppose you could change the weaker to a vassal. We should go to the rules and think of some rule differentiating equal unions with unequal ones. Any idea how to make a solid rule in the game? (let's define this before we change anything actually, so we know what to change) LurkerLordB (Talk) 15:51, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

SOCr
Just to let you know that since SOC declined, there is a new one, Spread of Communism Revised (Map Game). [[User:GunsnadGlory|Guns (talk) 06:55, July 7, 2012 (UTC)]]

Apocalypse 2012
Well, first off, I can't give you an answer like that off the bat. I studied nuclear physics- that mostly stuff like fusion, nuclear energy. I know enough to tell you that NO nuke is going to take 335 years to be not dangerous, but then that's just common sense. Look at Hiroshime, Nagasaki- both now thriving cities. Of course, some of that comes from my personal knowledge, but I have to clarify- is that fission or fusion, what time is it from, and what is the environment? Spillage will be concentrated in an area surrounded by mountains, for instance, but will blow everywhere in a city on a plain...

As for A-2012, is that a map game or a timeline? Either way, the world is going to be far too chaotic for any real countries. The Royal Guns (talk) 13:16, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Principia Moderni II Map
It is not the timing of the map that concerns me, as long as it gets done like you said about a week or so before the game begins (really as long as it is several days before the start) it should be fine. My primary concern is the sign-up list, as I don't want someone to sign-up for something for months only to discovery, a couple days before the game, that their nation is nonexistant or very different from what had originally been presented. Would any changes alter this list? If so, the list should be altered ASAP.

Also, is South East Asia accurate? Because I had found some good maps for that region, and spent a lot of time recently on correcting it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 16:40, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:35, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Naples doesn't exist on the current map, it's part of the Kingdom of Aragon. For Venice, I used this map, and if the Venetian year range encompassed 1450, it was marked off from the bordering nations. The territories that Venice rules in the Adriatic and Greece are not marked, but when they get a color, they will be shown to be Venetian.

The Majapahits I only showed their core territory (from this map), not the vassals. Sunda if anything was smaller than it is on the map, they only directly ruled the west half of their current territory, with the rest being more under their influence. All the maps I can find of the Ternate Sultanate show it controlling the territory on the map, and the only mention of it ruling more is that it was bigger in the late sixteenth century. Atjeh I couldn't find any maps of in 1450, so I used a 1500 map of it because the only other one was in 1600. The Malaccan Sultanate if anything controls less of Sumutra than it could. Brunei is if anything smaller than it currently is on the map. So I don't know what Indonesian states are too small.

All of the southeast asian nations I have their existed in 1450, though their borders may be different. If I didn't mention it, then I assume you are correct. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:46, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

The current kindom of Arakan, under the rulership of the Mrauk-U city, was founded in 1430 and lasted until 1785. Ava was founded in 1364 and didn't fall until 1555. Hanthawaddy was founded in 1287 and did not fall until 1552. The Shan States lasted from 1215 to 1557. Lanna lasted from 1292 to 1775. The Sutiya kingdom lasted until 1673. What nation in Southeast asia did not exist? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:19, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah that's fine. I picked Oman because I wanted a less demanding nation anyway. Also here's a site which may help you. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:02, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well there might be something more useful in the source sites that are being used by that site. Anyway keep up the good work! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:15, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Damn! Oh well, could you upload a new map showing all of those territories distributed then please? And btw, see how nations are allowed to expand 10,000km, is that only for uncivilized lands or for expanding into other states? Or is it 5,000km, because expansion into grey areas in halved? :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:22, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

So some expansion, some vassalization and unions and some wars? :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:31, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, why do you want to be Venice, it is tiny!! :/ Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:47, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Aahh. Well, do expand in mainland Northern Italy as well so you atleast have a larger population and food base. The way you will seem to play the game tells me you will not look to dominate Italy. Well, I'll make sure both our navies make contact, cuase Venice will be a great asset for me as I establish my own empire at home and abroad. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:03, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we could be the ones discovering you! And I mainly plan to have the whole of South and South East Asia, and I will use Crim's help with this. Just don't go to war with the 3 main states as I plan to ally myself with them. Plus, I don't think them losing Italian states would be a big thing. But all the best in trying to unite Italy (its funny hpw we both have to unite a whole nation, lol). :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:28, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

PMII Swahili
Sure, I'll play as someone else. But how hard would it be to unite them in the game? --<FONT COLOR="878787">"Truth fears no questions..."</FONT> 15:59, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

PM II
Thank you Scan, for advising me. I'll gladly play this new one. I'll be England then, as I said ^^. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 20:11, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Off course it's ok with me. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 17:45, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Our Unique Situation...
Hello, I believe that this is my first time speaking to you.

Now I noticed your plans as Venice in PMII. I don't know if you know ours, but it is to unify the Holy Roman Empire, which includes all of Italy, as we see it. Since you want to unify Italy as well, perhaps you could join the HRE, and we conquer Italy together. Then, you not only get what you want, you will also be part of a powerful nation that can pursue your interests.

In case you are worried about balance and power and everything, each player nation will get a say in what the nation does as a whole. So don't worry, you will be represented.

Well, what do you think? Interested?

If you have any doubts, don't be afraid to ask.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:23, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Okay then. I guess I'll go for Ethiopia then. Thanks for the info. --<FONT COLOR="878787">"Truth fears no questions..."</FONT> 22:29, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

PM II Map Question
Hi I am playing as Bavaria, I was wondering if I could perhaps have a light blue colour in keeping with the Bavarian flag and of course the BMW logo. If it is not too much to ask, I would appreciate it. These are not the droids you are looking for. 23:37, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

PMII Map
Being my nosy self, I did know that and as a matter of fact, I knew that was a mistake! Even OTL's states of Brandenburg has no coastline!

Also, join us in PMII in the new Holy Roman Empire. We'll leave the job of keeping Italy under control to you, as they would be less likely to rebel under an Italian master and not a German one.

Also we planned to keep the Ottomans down and leave them alone. After we consolidate the Empire then you can beat the shit out of them.

And you can have Genoa and Lubeck.

Also, Aragon owns OTL Two Sicilies, so after we/you defeat them in Italy, we can go after the rest of Spain!

What do you say?

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 23:55, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Also, we plan to conquer the Indian Subcontinent! Mwahahahaahahahahahaa!

Like I said, give it some time.

Also, Naples/Sicily is part of the Kingdom of Aragon, the most powerful nation in the Spanish Peninsula. Once that goes down, we can go after the rest. And we could even corner France if we tried!

I plan for a super expansionist imperialist Holy Roman Empire until the Mid 1700s! Mwhahahahaaha!

Also, for my color, I'd like ultramarine. The code is #120A8F. If you can't get that, I'll take regular #0000FF blue.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 01:38, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

For my colour, I would like a Orangish Yellow, for whatever state I choose. However, you have not fixed the map yet to I am uncertain!! :/ Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:36, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

The colour I'd like to use for my nation (I'm playing as Japan) is purple. Preferable the purple seen on Satori Komeiji's hair, if it's okay. Thanks. -Kogasa 13:26, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll wait. But a couple of colonies of mine might spring up in Ireland. I just mainly want SE Asia to be influenced by me. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 13:37, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

My main concern is that some of those maps are rather complicated, like the French one and the Ireland one. I was hoping to have a labelled version of the map, and that might require (insets? I think that's the word, where it shows part of the map larger). If the states are really small, it might just be better to have them the "fragmented" color (which isn't just for civil disarray, in case you missed it) instead of having a lot of tiny states on the map. For the borders, I was hoping to keep the borders the dark grey color, except for maybe the HRE one since I didn't know how to portray it (I have the borders between states of the HRE only being 1 pixel in width, in order to show that they are more connected)

Anyways, for the colors, a red bright blue or red would be good for Scotland. I'd prefer that no one have the exact same color as they did in the last game, but if they want to have it, that's fine. LurkerLordB (Talk) 13:49, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well, then I'll take the regular blue, which is Red 0, Green 0, Blue 255.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 21:53, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Where is Bavaria on the map, I do not see my colour (light blue)These are not the droids you are looking for. 22:02, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

I originally planned having a green color. However, since i think that it probably would overlap with Venice's in the same way that Bharat and Naples/Italy are almost overlapping, especially with puppets and former colonies, i decided to go with blue.like this:

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:17, July 26, 2012 (UTC)

Your idea of limited exploration is good, but needs some modification.

For the contact between continents, I don't think that you meant to say that they did not know of east asia until the mid sixteenth century, as they had vague knowledge of each other, they just didn't maintain contact enough to have any alliances. I like your regions idea. I was thinking of limiting the rounding of the south of Africa like limiting the Americas.

Your colonization idea is good, but I think that it is not a good idea to restrict the first colonies to the Caribbean. I would say any of the Caribbean as well as the entire Atlantic coast for the Europeans. Especially Norway, as they already owned Iceland, going from there to Greenland (which they knew existed) and from there to the mainland of North America in Canada (which they had already done) seems much more reasonable than sailing all the way to the Caribbean. Scotland would find that way easier too I think, if they were allied to the Norweigans. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:18, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

The color I want for my nation(Ainu) is bone the hex triplet is <span style="font-family:monospace,Courier;font-size:12px;line-height:17px;text-align:center;">#E3DAC9 and the RGB is: R:227 G:218 B:201. Willster22 (talk)

I'd like to retain my lovely asparagus as China if at all possible. If not, could I have yellow? CrimsonAssassin (talk) 02:33, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

Ok the color I want for my country's hex code is #6499BF and the RGB is: R:100 G:153 B:191. Willster22 (talk)

They only found the Caribbean first because Columbus just so happened to land there. Chance was all that determined that. Newfoundland is actually much closer to all European nations, as is most of the rest of the Atlantic Coast of mainland Europe. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:23, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

About the map, there is that part that roughly corresponds to Ceuta,probably.Ceuta was a part of Portugal during this time (1450), so i don't see no reason to not colour that bit in Portuguese colors.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:36, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't particularly like the color that Scotland had, so how about replacing it with 204 0 255? I just want a brighter color so it stands out more. Thank you. Also, I appointed you to be mapmaker and disaster moderator for PMII. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:48, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

That is a good color, it is bright enough. LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:13, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

What colours are free to use? Although, I'd be happy to have dark green.  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 05:01, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Could Oman be a yellow colour? I'm not super fused the exact type of yellow but something yellow. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:16, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah pale yellow is good <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:15, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sea green? Alright then.  Doctor261  (Talk to me!) 15:41, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

I have now decided on Vijaynagar, if that is fine with you. And could I still get my Orangish Yellow for my nation colour please? :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:31, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Venice
I believe you are Venice in PMII. So Scraw and i(Brandenburg and Aragon respectively) have formulated a plan. I am to enter a dynastic union with you(if you agree) and in exchange we'll help your conquest of what is left of the Italian peninsula(really most of it). And then y'all will help me conquer Iberia and maybe later, France.AP (talk) 00:51, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

BTW Aragon would like to be a bright red or something like that. Don't forget to color in our holdings which include: Athens and surrounding area(known as the Duchy of Athens, i was surprised this existed), All of OTL Kingdom of Two Sicilies, and of course the Aragonese homeland.AP (talk) 01:16, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. Well the holdings now are: Naples+Sicily(OTL Kingdom of Two Sicilies), Corsica, and Sardinia. And if no other shades of red are available, then i'll just take pink.AP (talk) 05:04, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Colour of the Nation
It's possible the yellow of the actually Spanish flag?. Greetings. Jaeden Cuenta Cuentos (talk) 11:19, July 28, 2012 (UTC).

I would like a similar colour for Novgorod...but not exactly the same. Russia isnt going to be moscow-dominated in this new PM! -Lx (leave me a message) 15:57, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

I would have liked dark green or the same blue...but fine. Dark red. Worst case scenario I just change it after the fact when one or more people quit and I can take their colour-Lx (leave me a message) 01:26, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks man! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 22:18, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Pan-Chinese Summit
For the sake of all Chinese nations, the NPRC has cordially invited Guangxi to a summit in the city of Hanyang in regards to the economic, political, and military integrity of China as a whole.

(See Pan-Chinese Summit of 2012 for detalis)

Canuck2012 (talk) 20:05, July 29, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Re: Impact
Thank you for pointing out my inaccuracies. If you spot anymore, please feel free to tell me.

Doctor Evulz (talk) 13:38, July 30, 2012 (UTC)

Re: PMII
Thanks for the warning, but I'm find with an native nation. I actually prefer them. But, can you please explain an few moves that an tribal nation can and cannot do. Enclavehunter (talk) 05:47, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Re: PMII
Thanks for letting me know, but from a map I found (this one), it looks about right. I'll consider a change, though. ChrisL123 (talk) 16:51, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Ainu
The Japanese had not yet moved into Hokkaido, and the Ainu had also inhabited southern Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands at this time. I actually hadn't considered how to portray tribal groups on the map, NPC ones are just a white name in the black areas, for PC ones, perhaps a color, but no border (on the black areas) to represent the way the exact border would be undefined? LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:25, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Re: PMII
Thanks. I'm really looking forward to playing. Nice to officially meet you. CourageousLife (talk) 19:38, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply, but so am I :) PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 18:20, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Those states in the Holy Roman Mess can just be classified as "Small German states" on the sign-ups. As for Ragusa, you might want to ask him if he is sure he wants to play such a tiny city-state. If he still does, I think he should just be given 1 pixel, but told he has less. LurkerLordB (Talk) 19:18, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

The "Fragmented" state on the algorithm makes it so they can't gain territory through wars, but their end score is multiplied by 1.5, so it would actually make the HRE stronger, not weaker.

I really had wanted a labelled map, as there is great confusion in the current game of people not knowing what NPC nation is what. Also, I don't want the Europe sign-ups to have like 100 names just under the Holy Roman Empire grouping. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:29, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria was split? Then yes I suppose I will take Munchen. Thanks for checkingThese are not the droids you are looking for. 14:36, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I use Paint.NET, it has the ability to turn antialiasing on and off, antialiasing blurs small details so when its zoomed out it looks better. You can get it for free. I don't know if normal paint has that ability, but it might. Look for the word antialiasing. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:51, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Quick question- at what point are the Mayan states in PMII? Are they where they are in OTL, begining to collapse, or are they still stable. And do we still have the same technology at this point in OTL? How fast are we allowed to develop? CourageousLife (talk) 15:54, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, in your Europe map, there are some border issues.such as: The only difference as that the Portuguese hadn't reached the area, and Sitawaka didn't exist in 1450.
 * The southern Aragonese-Castillian border around Murcia is a bit too thin, and the extent of Navarra sound a bit bigger.Apparently, Navarra includes Biscay, which in 1450 was already integrated to Castille. link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corona_de_Castilla_1400_en.svg
 * I think that the Teutonic-Polish border is too much like a straight line.
 * The Hungarian border with Austria was rounder on the Hungarian side, not the Austrian.the same for their Bohemian border.
 * If it was you who made the captions, the name of the Kingdom bordering Wallachia is called Moldavia.Moldova(that's how it is on the European map) is how they called themselves, and the present-day country.Novgorod also is spelled wrong.I also thought that that Khanate north of the Timurids was called Chagatai.
 * The Faroe islands were already part of Norway, and thus, the Kalmar union, during this time.in the map, thay apparently are unsettled.
 * There is something akin to a square of pixels in the middle of Naples for some reason.
 * Wasn't the Patrimony of St. Peter part of the Papal States?
 * There is a grey state bordering the Inca, and there's nothing indicating who they are, though i suspect that they must be the Chimu.
 * Ife is too far away from the city of Ife itself.Benin is too big, particularly in a a northern direction.Oyo is a bit more south than it actually was.
 * Songhai and Mali look a bit wrong, but i don't know their borders in 1450, as the maps that i saw are from circa 1350, not 1450.
 * I wouldn't consider the Jaffna Sinhalese.i would try to redo their (the Sri Lankan states') borders myself, but then, i would need a map that zoomed on Sri Lanka specifically.there is a map on 1520: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Lanka_geopolitics,_1520s.png

Those are the mistakes that i could find.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:26, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

I have a question how would me changing my nation in Principia Moderni 2 how would it effect the map? Is it to late? Willster22 (talk) 18:47, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

i I will play principa moderni two, what nation did I choose? Proud Leader of the Althistory Revolution (User talk:DeanSims)

I want to play as the Nilotic people. you can use my existing color from the ainu or choose a random different one. Willster22 (talk) 23:53, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

PMII: Duchy of Rome
Hey, Scandinator. I've noticed you changed the name of the Papal States to the "" on the PMII map. From what I've read, the Duchy of Rome was a Byzantine district that existed only in the 8th century, and had been cut off from the Byzantine Empire in 751. Unless I've missed something. Just letting you know. Regards, ChrisL123 (talk) 16:47, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the Duchy of Rome was the Byzantine Provinces, the Papal States is the generally used term for the area at this time. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:42, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Actually may i be Granada the color i want is #33CC00 Willster22 (talk) 18:23, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

hey, which nation can i choose now, i dont want ragusa and despite i want the byzantines im probably going to be killed of by the ottomans so... help please, and if the incan empire can survive the european invasion in 1490 i'll take it

Moderator events for the first turn
My main question is, should these moderator events be RL things, or PODs to create different situations? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:42, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Also, a lot of Asian nations are the dark grey of fragmented. I'm surprised so many states are fragmented like this, so I'll just check to make sure there are no mistakes. I plan to update the sign-up list this weekend at the latest if I don't have time this week (first week of school) or someone else doesn't either.

You've done a great job with the map, and you probably noticed that I made you a mapmaker and brought back your old position of disaster moderator. However, I just think that for at least a while, it might be a good idea for you to try and restrict yourself from making moderator events affecting nations that your nation may be interacting with, as that is what caused the great scandal last time. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:55, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip.The Royal Guns (talk) 03:30, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Mod-Controlled Nations
Why are some nations marked down as mod-controlled on the Principia Moderni II sign-ups? I never saw any discussion or agreement regarding this. Unless there is a good reason, no nation should be restricted from play. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:58, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, instead of just saying "you can't play as them", we should make some sort of system so people just couldn't come out of civil disarray in one turn. Like saying that to go from tribe to city-states, you have to work on it for 20 years, from city-states or civil disarray you have to work for 10 years to get a small section (maybe the size of Belgium) to stabilize as one nation, and another 5-15 years to stabilize the rest, depending on how large it is? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:06, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ehh... as map maker, could you fill in Muscovy? It isn't on the map and I'm not sure that I should edit the map...

The Royal Guns (talk) 07:38, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

PMII
I've been thinking about changing my nation in PMII again. The choices I have lined up are the Mumluks, the Ottomans (because Dean is apparantly gone) or a native American tribe because of all the elbow room in North America. I don't know which to pick and I want your advice.

Yank 21:58, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

After thinking about it I've decided that I'm going to go with the Manchurians. I just enjoy playing East Asian countries more than any other region. I still need variety though. This is likely going to be my permanent choice for PMII. My choice for PMIII is most definitely going to be Japan. Yank 00:24, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

We and Kogasa have a deal. He gets Japan in PMII and I get it in PMIII. Yank 00:40, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Sure! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:45, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Wow man, its nice! Btw, could you please tell me the latest government change in Vijaynagar and Bahmani Sultanates please? I just want to get underway quite soon when the game starts so I have a large base to leap off into the world with when I begin colonization in large force. :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 19:53, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

About the map, on Sri Lanka, actually, all of Sri Lanka except Jaffna was ruled by the Kotte Kingdom.And Jaffna was conquered in 1450.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:17, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I propose we make a mod event for Kotte's conquest of Jaffna in 1450.Unless somebody chooses Jaffna before the start of the game.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:55, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Someone else proposed to remove the contiguous rules, so I decided to do that already, if I hadn't edited the rules yet, I will do that. I already made a penalty for having your nation or its vassals send military aid to every other war that came up, so that should hopefully keep some of the implausible interference from happening. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:11, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I've officially changed my country to the Jurchens. You should probably change the Vietnamese event to decribe something about them uniting. Yank 00:20, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel that I have 'hogged' China. Nevertheless, it is likely that I will change nations in PMIII, assuming I'm still here by the time it starts. I'll answer with a 'there is a pretty large chance that you can be China in PMIII. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 12:03, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

I thought about changing, but I wanted to do some things with China that I had originally planned to do in PM but never got around to it. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:19, August 21, 2012 (UTC)

PMII
Oh, so the Mamluks? I wanted to play as Florence because I'm a huge Mediciphile, but the Mamluks would also be interesting. Thanks! Fed (talk) 19:57, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I just discovered four Anatolian states that still existed in 1450.All of them on ottoman territory. Karamanoglu, Dulkadir, Ramazanoglu, and Candaroglu.I got only two maps to say where they were roughly located. I also have the locations of their capitals, I will try to update the map, but can you later add the lettering?i can't do it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:46, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

The US has lasted 200 years since the adoption of the constitution, and is still very powerful. That's why I had the age thing be 300 instead of 200, because by using 200 the US would recieve penalties in any wars it fought after 1989, for example, when they are clearly no weaker. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:17, August 28, 2012 (UTC)

Here is the Anatolian map:

--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 14:09, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Finality
The truth is... I have lost interest in Finality, probably because of this site, lol. If you want to take over it, you have my permission, if not, I'll just go ahead and put it in my "unfinished folder." Thanks! PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 00:34, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you can :) PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 13:30, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

The reason is because the truth is, I know my grammar and writing isn't the best, so I'm going to practice a bit more before actually writing a story. Do you understand? Thanks! PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 13:30, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

PM II
Thanks for reminding me to sign up for Principia Moderni II! I chose Majapahit. Which nation are you?

Flagmania (talk) 01:55, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Holy Roman-Venetian Dialouge
The Holy Roman Emperor would like to speak to you at the doge's earliest convienience.

In other words, let's chat.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 20:56, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Hmph, to be fair, with Soms taking Constantinople, my main point of dialogue has been rendered moot. However, there is another thing to discuss.

We propose a deal: We take none of your land, you take none of our land in Italy or elsewhere, and you basically get free roam in (at least) the Eastern Mediterranian. I will try to direct Genoa's trade towards the West.

We also propose a joint alliance should another christian nation be attacked by the Ottomans.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:26, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Try looking here. I was waiting for your response. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 04:38, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

delication?
It's dedication.

I'm like the English professor in the Men's room:

I don't write on the walls. I just correct the spelling and grammar.

EoGuy (talk) 07:12, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

PM II
Hello.

I have a question; is it okay to colonise Kamchatka now (like starting next year) or should I wait until I get Chishima Islands and then expand into Kamchatka that way without colony (though both will take ~120 years, also, I'm not going that fast of expanding, and it will all be very slowly)? -Kogasa 2012年9月06日 21:49:59 (JST)

Manchuria
I'm planning on steadily expanding my nation of Manchuria. I haven't made any explicit mentions on how big it is. And I've only claimed OTL Sakhalin. Actual settlement of the island will begin some time later.

Yank 16:49, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

St Peter
Hey, Scandinator. Yes, I realized it would take a while, I'm not planning to take them over anytime soon.

Though, I'm having trouble finding sufficient evidence that St. Peter (or from what maps I found, the ) even existed as a separate state in the 1450s (or even the early 1400s for that matter), which is why I was kinda trying to speed up the process. But sure, a 40-year span should be fine. Regards, ChrisL123 (talk) 20:15, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria PM II Question
Is it possible for me to peacefully annex the other Bavarias if I send enough gold and propanganda? I have been doing that for a year or two now. Also if war begins can someone make the algorithm? I am not good with it and am really busy with college.These are not the droids you are looking for. 23:47, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

well talk about irony... anyway thanks, what is the name of the larger?These are not the droids you are looking for. 03:06, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, how any pixels is Granada? Would my pixels be with my territory from the war added or without? Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 12:52, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Do I add my 123px from the war or not? Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 13:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

can you give me a larger map of the Bavarias in PM II? Everytime I blow up the default one the names of the areas get really blurred, also how many pixels is my nation?These are not the droids you are looking for. 15:29, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

England PMII
Is there no other choice? Even if a mange to have moer allies? Well, then I'll surrendder Normandy. But, Could I take it back in the future? Or at least part of it?

Also, I'm not getting England itself into the HRE, but the zone of Calais. Many kingdoms have had lands in the HRE not being themselves part of it: Spain had Austria, Great Britain had Hannover, Prussia had Brandenburg prior to its own entrance in the Empire. So, is this possible? --Galaguerra1 (talk) 16:05, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Brandenburg PM
Hey Scan. I know you're the map making man, so I have some questions.

As you probably know, I'm Brandenburg. Being landlocked, I took some territory (not sure how much yet) from the Teutonics. Later I'll go after them when I'm stronger, but right now, I have a coastline, and that's mot important. Now then, I seek somewhere to expand. An island chain, or some tribal area or something. I was think near OTL's Cote d'Ivore. Plausible? Y/N? Anywho, I know as a European nation, there's not many places to go. I mean, the East has all this space and craploads of islands, so I'm just looking for somewhere I can set up a naval base or a launching pad to victory! I'm going to work on my navy a lot because my conquests (if any, probably many) will mostly be naval war. Blockading, sieging, etc etc etc.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:09, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes I am.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 05:46, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

PM II Papal War?
As a member of the HRE I must side with the Empire, though I must say it is odd, what exactly is going on, on the HRE page it said something about attacking Genoa, isn't that HRE territiory? Forgive me for my ignorance my primary field of study was WWII and Post WWII/Cold War. I am not very familiar with the early rennassiance. What exactly is going on? As Bavaria, I am a very religous nation, attack the very seat of my religion is unsettling to say the least, also what about the upcoming Caliphate? Also, I was under the impression that Venice may join the HRE and that we were favourably alligned to the Pope. Is that not so?These are not the droids you are looking for. 05:59, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

What happened was that the HRE did not want its main source of trade to be attacked. Therefore, we had this whole ordeal. We will not attack first until someone attacks us. That is how it goes. Venice attacking Genoa would generally be seen as a reason why it should not join the HRE.

No one is attacking Genoa, Milan is simply going to gain substantial control over it.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 06:01, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Finality
Yeah, that's fine with me. To edit it, it's really complicated actually. You need to make an account on fanfiction.net, then you need to write the story in either a word document or just in the site itself. But, you need to "create" a document, and with that document you can either upload the word document or just type. Then, for every chapter, you have a different chapter. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 15:04, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Just as a curiosity, what exactly is your plan with this insurrection thing? Bavaria is already tied up with our unification war, somebody still needs to help me with that one, and Brandenburg is tied up politically. If Austria falls then wont this weaken the HRE?These are not the droids you are looking for. 04:48, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I listed off who is with me and whether they are military or supply, vassal that kinda thing but I do not know how to give them points or anything

So I just wait for two years?

~ Unsigned comment by someone

Indeed. My fortunes are soaring suddenly.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 20:14, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. Like I said, fortune is in my ball court for now. Let's hope it stays with me for a while. Also, count on my support against Hungary, and also maybe Austrian. Which HRE state (especially Austria) would pass up the chance to screw Hungary, eh?

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 22:10, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Reset of Talks
Alright, look. We got off on the wrong foot. So let us try again.

I thought that your future attack on Genoa was an indication that you had no intention of joining the HRE. AS such, I created precautions. Now that Milan wants to do the same thing, I will have to compromise.

So here is what I propose: Please let me know if these terms are acceptable, and let me know what is not. Thank you for your aid.
 * Venice and the Byzantine Empire join the Holy Roman Empire as full states in two to five years, or when the War of Imperial Succession is over.
 * They will both have full rights as states.
 * Under the Unification Treay on the HRE page, you will abide by its laws, and so will I. Please put forward any issues you might have. 
 * You will have a near-complete monopoly of HRE trade. If anyone external tries to stop you, you will have the might of the HRE to back you. For practical and economic reasons, I cannot let you have all of the trade, but your only competitors in the Empire will be the remains of the Hanseatic League, what's left of Genoa, and the other Italian states.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 23:34, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Zulu and Smallpox
Hey. Does the Zulu Kingdom in PMII have to worry about Old World diseases that killed the Native Americans, such as smallpox. Enclavehunter (talk) 00:34, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

As Bavaria is finally united and Wurttemberg my vassal, may i edit the PMII page to reflect that? Also now that I am a Grand Duchy, and fairly powerful, Can I become an elector?These are not the droids you are looking for. 22:23, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I know I forgot, I have retracted the statement, I looked at the PM II webpage and saw Elector written in bold thing and forgot for a moment

1463 mod events
respectfully, what is going on with the mod events. Savoy leaving the HRE with several other states because of the Unification Treaty is absolutely implausable. All nations are granted freedom and assurances that they woud not be attacked. It is against the treaty to attack a neighboring nation with the exeption of Pomerania and Wurttemberg, as both aqisistions ocuured before the signing of the Treaty. Please help us, here, I do not know if you are in charge of this event or not, but it simply cannot happen. Also in Milan, the D'Artsi and Monferatt etc are WAY too loyal to Milan, they would never thing of betraying them. I respectfully request this be retconned.

Cheers, Andr3w777 (talk) 00:01, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

note- I am not mad per se I am just a little irritated.

That map is no longer valid, it was an old plan. Also bavaria is done all we wanted was traditional Bavaria with the otl state of Baden Wurttemberg. The other nations were agreed upon BEFORE the treaty, expansion is thus limited by treaty. I cannot speak for Milan and Brandenburg, but I know that Bavaria is done with expansion. I understand your concern, that is why we have developed a supreme court and ae working on a fair constitution. I determined that the current way is too authoritarian and the others agreed. I implore you to just observe and maybe add your own valuable input. the Swiss have been heavily reprimanded and we are considering allowing savoy to seize the Swiss. It was this utter foolishness that caused a lot of this. Please understand we by no means want to cut you out. Tat map was before you were in active ingagement with us, back when we had to assume that we each needed to divvy up land. It is no longer, nor will ever be valid. Sorry for the confusion my friend.Andr3w777 (talk) 11:55, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Crimea in PMII
I have a proposal for the Crimea in PMII once this war with Savoy blows over.

Let me know if you are interested in hearing what I have to say.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:18, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

After this war with Savoy ends, we hit the Crimean Khanate together. You get the Crimea and most of the Azov Coast, and I get the large steppe areas. You get what you want (I hope), and I get what I want. We both win, right?

Also, about the unification treaty, Venice would not be vassalised at all, as it is a player nation and one of the strongest. The map you are referring to is either before you joined or before we knew you were into joining the empire.

Really the vasslisation here is just to get those states to sign the treaty and to satisfy the feeling of conquest without actually doing so.

Also, the empire is not going to be based on Austria. That is why a new capital is being created, out of Austrian (or anyone's) reach. The monarchy is as it always was, elected. Play your moves right and one day a Venetian may be on the throne.

Please just consider this before doing anything rash. I don't want another huge misunderstanding.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 19:46, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Savoy question
Well according to the ruling by the Court Savoy is guilty. If you read what I posted, I beleive that Savoy should be re-addmitted and that the Swiss should be punished. What is Venice's idea? I want Bavaria to work with Venice and plan to strengthen our alliance, if you have any reasonable suggestions, I am certainly all ears. Also England looks for war with England. I have chosen to stay nuetral because of the lack of ability to send supplies and this thrice blasted Civil War. We would like Venice to take a more active part in Court proceedings and negotiations. Andr3w777 (talk) 16:52, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Hey, are you still up for that invasion of the Crimea this turn?

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 17:02, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Could you attack them then? Since you are smashing the Ottomans right now, I am sure that some troops is not to much to ask.

Thanks, Monster Pumpkin (talk) 02:19, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Japan PMII
Thanks. ^_^ I made it in create.swf. If you want, I could make one for your Venice page if you want.

Anyway, I'll be willing to help out on your international history page once its established.

As for the Sengoku, I've been planning it out (Mwahaha :] ). I'm planning to have the Satomi clan become the new controller of Japan. Other factions will include Satake, Fujiwara, Takeda, Miyoshi, Suzuki, Yamana, and some others (Toyotomi is also included but they will gain power after last member of Satomi clan dies in ~1630s; similar to like how OTL Tokugawa was after Toyotomi Hideyoshi). I'll make a map of their areas control and such sometimes soon as well. I'm originally planning to start said Era around the ~1520s (~1525) if it's fine.

As for Dejima, it wasn't built until 1634. You can however feel free to stay on OTL for a while until Dejima is built. Then you can use both places (or either one of them) if you like.

I plan of having Japan become bit more friendly and bit more open to foreigners (with little restrictions, but don't worry, it shouldn't affect anything much). -Kogasa 2012年9月26日 03:15:36 (JST)

That can be arranged. I could always take the map of nations from the PMII map and remove everything that borders it and then I can work from there (though for Japan, I will instead have Satori or Koishi represent it, though a map of Japan will also be present in a international comic along with them). Either way I'll help out with international comics, just tell me what's needed and I'll do my best. ^^

I'll be the Satomi clan. At start, they will hold Shikoku, OTL Yamaguchi, Hiroshima, and Okayama Prefectures and go from there. Could I also mention the other clans sometimes, so I could update on how they are doing and stuff?

You can have one of the islands from the OTL. :] -Kogasa 2012年9月26日 19:46:26 (JST)

No problem, and good luck with your exams. Can nations have hats though? If allowed, maybe I'll have Japan wear Koishi's hat or have Reimu's hair ribbons instead (sorry, in case your wondering I'm a huge Touhou fan, and I'd like to have something at least tiny bit related to it, if okay; if not I understand, I can fine with whatever decision comes to be).

The island sounds nice, thanks. :] They did, but I reordered the map and move clans around a bit. Figured that lot would have changed and all. I made a map (seen right) showing all the reordering of the clans (and the map is the otl Prefectures of Japan, was easiest to edit and was originally in png). And I'll think I'll just leave it up to the mod events instead for the other clans. Any strategies you suggest to ensure a possible way for the Satomi clan to be able to unite Japan? -Kogasa 2012年9月26日 22:32:37 (JST)

Deal. :D

And Touhou, is mainly a dōjin game series (meaning made for fun then profit) focused on bullet hell shooters (danmaku). It's basically you choose either Reimu or Marisa (in some games you can choose more than two) and you go up against Youkai and bosses, and the games follows a story line. This wiki can help you understand what it's about (whenever you have the time, though).

Fair enough. :D I'm prepared to deal with the tough times and all as well. -Kogasa 2012年9月26日 23:05:00 (JST)

Constitution of the HRE PMII
I would like you, as a member of the Holy Roman Empire in PMII to formally establish the system of our state by signing this constitution so we can organize the new system as soon as possible, and see if suits to everyone. (also, I have been proposing you alliance since years ago and I still do not know if you ever accepted) --Galaguerra1 (talk) 05:30, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:37, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

on the map, there is a small state just north of Bavaria, and Baden Wurttemberg- What is that state, Anhalt? If so it has no player according to the map. Is it feasable for Bavaria to seize the land?Andr3w777 (talk) 00:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Naples
Hi, I was just wondering if you would prefer me not to engage in trade agreements and the like with Naples, because I think that Naples is in your sphere of influence, and I find agreements with Venice & vassals more important than Naples. Thanks, Cyprus aka Airlinesguy (talk) 00:08, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Since you're the chief mapmaker of PMII, and Islands is set in a similar period to PMII and needs a good mapmaker, would you be interested in being a mapmaker on Islands (Map Game)? 77topaz (talk) 01:15, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay. Considering the time my other map game, Things Can Only Get Worse (Map Game), took to get started, you probably won't be late. :P 77topaz (talk) 01:25, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK cool. It'll be kept. :D Airlinesguy (talk) 07:55, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Is a Hunter Green a good color for Granada now that I'm coming back. The Hex Code is: #50C878 Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 14:34, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hello, using a theme that is already open about me I would diplomatically solve the question of the Balkans. Venice is a great power (and also a major trading partner of Naples) and one of his vassals the Byzantine Empire has a great desire for expansion, your union with Epirus is a fact and there is no way to interfere there I do not wish to interfere, but otherwise serbia can not belong to your sphere of influence, your vassal would be bigger than you. The kingdom of Naples want expand into this realm, without interfering with your policy to the south and east of the Balkans ... In this war that comes between HRE and the Caliphate, the best thing for you would be to expand the Byzantine Empire to the east and recover the territories of the Ottomans. Epirus I think it's yours, in the same way that Albania can be incorporated into your empire I do not know whether or not easily, that's something we might see in the coming shifts. What do you say? Quiari (talk) 15:40, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Look, I understand your position and your intentions. I have no intention to challenge the supremacy of the eastern Mediterranean. I do not want to interfere with your interests, and I think it right to try to restore the Byzantine Empire and hopefully another player can come and take those reins. In black sea you have your territory and I have no problems with you. At this time I have left Serbia: is what you have been claiming all along. I reject the Caliphate and want to join the Holy Roman Empire (still waiting to accept me ...) you propose that I withdraw the Adriatic, but you have to understand that I've spent many turns here. I pledge before the HRE to protect the interests of Byzantium and the interest of the Empire. No territory of them is in danger, as proof of this, I have given Serbia. If you say you do not want those territories to Venice but to Byzantium then you should not see a problem. After the defeat of the Caliphate would please me very much to see the distribution of North Africa, you offer me Tunisia, Libya or Algeria, but until we get to that, not only I will seek those territories. I'm proposing a status quo, you have your area of influence, you get the territories you wanted, I promise not to interfere in the eastern Mediterranean, or black sea, nor in the Byzantine Empire, or any other matter have those places (unless you specify more than one) and you then simply do the equivalent. I remain in the land where I am and I seek my own zones and enclaves, without harming you. No wars between our, Christian nations, only prosperity. If necessary it can be pronounced HRE and the vote ended a dispute that may arise, always in search of peace, justice and balance of powers. Quiari (talk) 19:55, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Spell checker
I'm like the English professor in the Men's room.

I don't write on the walls.

I just correct the spelling and grammar.

It's a dirty job but somone's got to do it.

EoGuy (talk) 14:43, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, you are at war with me as Venice. and you are winning. how many years this war is going to last, and, if isn't you leading this block, then who is so i can ask him?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:19, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

That's all good and well, and I am sure you would be a good emperor, but the emperor is still elected. It cannot be garunteed that you will win.

But it is possible. :)

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 04:03, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

It would be difficult, as originally, i would be using Ceuta to get a foothold on Morocco.(if it wasn't for that event in 1466, i would probabaly have gone to war with them, maybe before Castille).anyway, as i now ain't planning in taking Morocco, i accept this offer.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:11, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Scandinator. First, remember the mods said that another war and we would have peasant revolutions, second, Naples wants to join the Empire, and I'm going to support this. I don't think he wants to go to war against you, so maybe you should try first to negotiate, If we talk to him maybe he will leave the Balearics and make a deal with you about the Balkans. I know he does not want war with us, so maybe we should try to negotiate. Okay, about North Italy the thing that really bothered me was that I was there before, and basically turn ALL those nations against me just a few years after I gave to you most Genoan possessions (I could not give you anything, but I did) and still you acted so hostile with me after that. And it wasn't your only direction to expand, for God's sake Venice is 60.000px while Milan is the half of that, just look Croatia is the same size than I (plus your other 7 vassals). you're just too expansionist near me, and I see that as a hostile attitude Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 20:06, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Your Problem...
Unfortunatly I cannot say whose side I am on at this moment. I can assure you that I will be watching the situation, and act accordingly. I might even create simulations for both possibilities, but as of now I am on no side.

This infighting is going to make the Caliphate's job much easier.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 22:23, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria will remain neutral for right now. I am worried that Lurk will bring the hammer onto the HRE with all of this infighting and war. If things go progressively worse then I will probably side with you. Also could Venice loan the Imperial Trade Fleet some barques? I know we are more or less competing but perhaps we can come to a deal?Andr3w777 (talk) 03:01, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

That seems exceptable, we will allow Venice to do what it does best. Also please see the High Imperial Court page, I have posted something in regards to Naples.Andr3w777 (talk) 03:28, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think we need to take a second look at the Naples situation. I accidentally over read that the caliphate is planning on attacking us either after the war or during the war with Naples. Should we continue. I'd there a peaceful way around this? I am not entirely convinced that we can defeat the caliphate in a weakened state. What do you think, also what do you think mp would say.Andr3w777 (talk) 14:38, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

You got yourself a deal, brother. You grab your vassals and I grab mine, and we'll roll our tanks into Naples in no time! If we get a large victory (which I am sure of), can Aragon get most of the land as revenge for the split about 40 years ago? Thanks, and you're welcome. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 17:53, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

SECRET DIPLOMACY- META GAMERS WILL BE SHOT!!!
If I support a full on war with Naples. Can I have the Eastern Coast of Naples or equivilant? It will be for the use of the Imperial Trade Fleet, which will not hinder Venice, and the formation of a small to mid size Navy so i can colonize in the future. I am the only landlocked Elector in the HRE and need room to expand outside. I ask you to please consider my proposal. You get back Serbia and maybe Croatia, Brandenburg gets its revenge, and Bavaria gets a needed port. Everyone is happy.Andr3w777 (talk) 23:06, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Can you show me your proposal on the map? I am not good with middle age geo-politicsAndr3w777 (talk) 23:25, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, now whos being hard on a new player?

No worries. It's not in Russia's interest to see the Caliphate take advantage of this situation, so If they attack they'll still lose.

But if they attack aftrerwards, just a warning... Russia may not be able to support you. We have our own plans, after all. I recommend you solve this diplomatically, before the HRE gets split up, because if the Caliphate attacks then, you're going to hell in a handbasket.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:42, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Good plan, I'll support you if it comes to anything, but seriously... the only thing I see him guilty of is making treaties with the Caliphate. You war on him, they'll attack you. Never forget.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:03, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">Mm, and also...

<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">''Si el HRE te ataca, te puedo defender, si el Caliphato me da permiso. Digame si ellos te dan mas problemas.Saamwiil, the Humble 22:26, October 10, 2012 (UTC)''

<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">"If the HRE attacks you, we can defend you, if the Caliphate gives me permission. Tell me if they give you more problems."

<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">That's the advantage of taking Spanish, lol.

<p style="border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">anyways...

The Royal Guns (talk) 23:18, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Never mind.

''Gracias por tu intencion, pero yo planeo unirme al sacro imperio, asi que tu y yo seremos enemigos si es que llega a pasar una guerra. Ellos me quieren atacar porque venecia les ha hecho creer que yo tengo una alianza secreta con ustedes para atacar al sacro imperio, jaja, todo eso es por que yo me fui a serbia y el se puso a llorar como una niñita diciendo que ese le pertenecía, llamo a todo el mundo, hasta a su familia creo y les empezó a ofrecer todas mis tierras! lol Ahora yo me salgo de serbia y me voy a bosnia y es capaz de decirme que eso tambien es de él. es el colmo, algunos jugadores piensan que el mapa entero es de ellos, pero en fin que se hace... ustedes mucho repiten sus post, no les diran nada los mod? creo que esa vaina estaba medio prohibida, no? una pregunta: esos territorios que se han separado de ustedes, los de crimea marruecos y argelia, ustedes ya no intervienen ahi no? por que si yo busco una expansion en mi propio contienente no la tengo facil, eso me obliga a irme a lugares un poco más lejanos... Quiari (talk) 23:35, October 10, 2012 (UTC)''

"Thank you for your intention, but I plan to join the Holy Roman Empire, so you and I will be enemies if war comes to pass. They want to attack me because Venice has made them believe that I have a secret alliance with you to attack the Holy Empire, haha, that's all that I went to Serbia and began to mourn as a little girl saying that belonged I call everyone, even his family will think and started offering all my land! lol Now I leave I'm going to Serbia and Bosnia and is able to tell me that he is too. is the height, some players think that the entire map is theirs, but anyway you do ... much you repeat your post, do not say anything the mod? I think that thing was half prohibited, no? a question: those territories that have separated from you, the Crimean Morocco and Algeria, you no longer involved there? that if I seek an expansion of my own I have continent not easy, it requires me to go to places a little farther ... Quiari (talk) 23:35, October 10, 2012 (UTC)"

This one, I used google translate, but... frankly...

Anyways, you can trust him. Now end the bloody warmongering.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:09, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Northern Europe (PMII)
I'm sorry. That was uncalled for and I know it. My ideas for Finland were the only ones I was really planning on following through on. I'm also planning on having it instead be the Danes that the rest tear to shreds.

Yank 15:43, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Curious which universities in Australia are you attending? Because I may in Australia next year for my exchange year. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:57, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah the University of Sydney and the University of New South Wales are both partner universities of my current university (the university of Manchester) so I may end up in Sydney! Which would you say is the best university out of these two btw? I can only pick 6 universities then get to go to which ever of those 6 accept me. But there are a fair few universities I wouldn't mind going to so I wanna keep a options board. The University of Hong Kong and National University of Singapore are my favourite two but I can see them wanting grades higher than the ones I got this year... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:05, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I was quite disappointed when I realized my uni had no partners in Japan, I really wanted to go Japan. But yeah I think I'd enjoy it where ever I go, but I'm trying to just go somewhere where I not been. Finland is also looking a good choice too. But yeah I was just making sure Sydney uni and UNSW were of similar quality. But I'm leaning more towards UNSW out of those two if its more practical, as my uni is currently mostly theory. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:27, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good! Thanks for your help <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Scan, about Apoc: 2012... having two PODs in somewhat implausible... instead though, you could say that butterflies from Gore's foriegn policy would cause the second?

The Royal Guns (talk) 12:40, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Nice. :] What are some of your favourite artists/DJ's may I ask (from the Techno, Electro, Trance)? -Kogasa 2012年10月16日 00:50:51 (JST)

Map Game Wiki
I've been thinking about this idea for a long time.

Basically, it would have four advantages:

A) Map Games would not be restricted to althistory.

B) The reputation of this wiki wouldn't be so downgraded by them a-holes on AH.com.

C) It would have the effect of less clutter on this wiki.

D) It could have rules specifically designed for Map Games, including rules about defunct ones, etc.

What do you think?

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:52, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Not really. Unless you have a really slow computer, the transition between the two sites takes just a couple of seconds. Also, it actually makes it easier to organize. You edit althists on the wiki and map games on the other.

The Royal Guns (talk) 23:10, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Naples and HRE
Naples I suppose we can have some massive revolt in their Slavic territories that causes them to lose them all.

As for the HRE, they're going to have a civil war due to the Reformation, that would be a good time for a bunch of NPC Italian states to decide that its time to leave the empire all at once. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:52, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hey Scan! As you can see, I have taken a renewed interest in PMII and I am playing as Hindustan. I was wondering, since my nation has been taking to the seas, when can we make contact and become allies? I would love to support an imperial Venice which could give me a naval advantage over China and Japan and help my empire building. What dya say? :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:23, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 12:17, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well, things are getting a little desperate, and I have sent out a small fleet to Eurupe (Europe) to make contact with "a powerful naval power (not unlike Korea)"! It will be there next year and will return in the same year. So, what do you say, you up for me finding you? :/ Imp (Say Hi?!) 14:03, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Its not a bad navy though. But yeah, w'll probably make contact with the Portugese. So do I just wait for you to find me and the rest of India or what... :/ Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:12, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

K! :D Imp (Say Hi?!) 15:26, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

What would it take(within reason) for you to vote for Wilhelm Kribt, King of Bavaria for Emperor? I can offer assistance for the loyalists and give you my new wheellock weapons, which fire slightly faster than the old meachanism and works in wet weather.Andr3w777 (talk) 12:02, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, i decided to remain Sweden. If ManofSteele really wanted to keep it, he should have left someone playing as Sweden. It's not my fault. Also, France is hated and it isnt a good choice for me.AP (talk) 05:16, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

I am not changing my nation, in fact i erased my name when i left a few months back. Thus, when i came back and saw a blank slot i signed up for Sweden. Like i said, the guy should have just kept his name on there and asked someone to fill his spot for a while instead of deleting his name and praying someone doesnt take it. That just doesnt make sense.AP (talk) 05:35, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

We'll just see how this plays out. The main reason i wanted to be a different nation was because Aragon, under Scraws supervision, didnt exactly have a good 50 years since 1450. But really MoS should have taken care of that. I want Sweden, but if i have to I'll play Aragon or some other state.AP (talk) 05:44, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

re: Naming Australia
Thank you, good sir. I had typed Southland into the translator rather than South Land. Bad idea.

CrimsonAssassin (talk) 15:05, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Zengu (talk) 04:34, October 28, 2012 (UTC)