Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Useful Resources:

A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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El Venezolazo
a group of big protests, riots, and looting that is happening in Caracas, Maracaibo, Maracay, Ciudad Bolivar, Valencia, and other cities and towns in Venezuela, the cause of the so called Venezolazo ( in english the Great Venezuela Smash) is the take of possesion of the dictadorial goverment of Henrique Salas. The countrie congress have suspended the constitucional rights, and the police and military are using firearms to stop the situation, also civilians are using guns against the police and military. by 11:00 am. , all shops are shut, and public transport is not running, the official number of deaths civilians and not civilians is 37 and is constantly growing, by 12:30 a self coup has start in Venezuela, the goverment know that in the next days there will be chaos, with restrictions, food shortage, militarisation, burglaries, an the persecution and murder of innocent and not innocent people. Then salas is in exile in Brazil, a provisional goverment start for the constitucional period 2007-2012 that salas was going to finish and possible continue being president, the new provisional female president will be Ana Beatriz Perez Osuna ( here on venezuela she is a political character and friend of my mom so i know her very good so i know that she will be a good president if this is canonized) and if you ask if Salas is a dictator why the countrie is going so good (in the story becuse in real life it's completely different), well i'm going to give you an example our dictator president Marco Perez Jimenez he do injustices but also modernize the countrie but he finished in the same end like salas here. So i think that this is a very good idea.

Albania
So what happened to Albania? They were not a member of the Warsaw Pact in 1983, but they were on the Chinese side of the Sino-Soviet split. What do you think happened to this nation? Mitro 16:01, April 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Given that the USSR attacked China, it seems a reasonable guess that some of the Warsaw Pact nations attacked Albania. Gaining position in the Balkans and all that. Do we have any sources on likely Soviet strategy in a nuclear war? Benkarnell 20:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Chumash Republic (rise in population)
I was thinking about raising the population of the to about 200,000 but I would like some form of approval first. Riley.konner 5:04, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Where would these people come from?
 * 2) Why are you asking for a rise in population?
 * 3) What are the current populations of the counties that make up Chumash *here*?

I'd recommend you take the population from here and cut it by 1/2 to 3/4, frankly. There's just not enough food for everyone without mass transit. Louisiannan 00:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are an agricultural community, so they pretty much make there own food, you should elaborate on transit are you talking about trains, palnes, cars etc. I would like to raise the population because there nations even more improbable than this one that have higher populations, and the main reason I am asking if I should is because there would be no explanation, i would just raise the population. Riley.Konner 05:56, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

The OTL population of the areas that make up the Chumash Republic is about 420,000.Oerwinde 01:00, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * So my suggestion seems modest doesn't it? Riley.Konner 06:06, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

OTL pop of 420,000 and received an direct nuclear strike. I'd say the current pop isn't bad. But being the most stable area of the region, it would have high immigration. I would be ok with boosting the pop to around 100k, but 200k would be too much I thinkOerwinde 01:10, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well why I dont make it an 150K would that be acceptable? Riley.Konner 09:39, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I find the original population level to be realistic. California was probably the worst hit out of all the US states.  We are talking massive amounts of fallout.  Furthermore California has a lot of issues with water.  Without a working infrastructure, huge patches of Cali are going to be virtually deserts for the people who live there.  Mitro 00:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

New World Map
I think its about time that we replace the outdated world map. There have been many aditions to the canon of the timeline. After all, how hard is it to add Vietnam? They basically have the same borders as OTL. --Yankovic270 18:02, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

US/Canada Template
Gents (do we have any ladies?),

Here's an updated template for the Former US/Canada Template. I think it's a bit cleaner, and if everything is accepted as currently proposed, we could implement it right away. It would also make editing down the road easier:

Thoughts? Comments? Complaints? Death-threats? Do I need to take a wiki-break? User:Louisiannan 18:15, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * We have at least one, Smoggy is a lady. Mitro 18:17, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I like the look of the ANZC template better. I think removing the national flags would make it look a lot cleaner and more organized.--Oerwinde 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of it but Cape Girardeau is a member of the Dixie Alliance as well. --GOPZACK 19:13, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
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April Article of the Month
I think we can keep this program going. So what do you guys think you should be the next article of the month? Mitro 14:09, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think work should now start on the SAC, that page should show the changes that have happened over the years.--Vladivostok 16:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

So be it. The is this month's article of the month. Mitro 01:04, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to work on the empty articles before the large, developed pages. For instance there are a number of nations in the SAC that do not have proper articles yet.

Yankovic270 17:58, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Which English?
Which type of English should we use? There are small differences between English English and American English that sometimes might cause people to make corrections that are uncessary (organisation vs. organization). Thoughts? Mitro 20:25, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't Sweat the Small Stuff? Wikipedia policy is actually quite useful: for American topics, US spelling makes sense; for Commonwealth topics, Commonwealth spelling make sense; for all else, keep whatever the original writer went with.  And overall, it seems silly to formulate a policy that won't likely be upheld anyway - each writer is going to continue spelling things the way he knows. Benkarnell 19:22, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article Limits?
I'd like to suggest (because we went through something similar in Ill Bethisad) that we limit the number of open articles a particular editor can have. It seems to me that we have a number of editors that are opening 5 and 10 articles (or more) and writing a teeny snippet, and then abandoning them to go and write another snippit of an article.

I'd like to suggest that we make a general rule of articles must be written to a reasonable depth (meaning that the article is essentially complete, or mostly so) and that unless a given user does so, they shouldn't open another article. I think a given user could edit and create 2 or 3 articles reasonably - and that they shouldn't open more than that until one of the articles is graduated. I don't think this should be a rule that is strictly enforced, more of an "on your honor" thing - but I think that would prevent having 60 articles queued up for proposal status. Louisiannan 22:54, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
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Miscellaneous discussion
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Loose Nukes
I know this has just been brought up in the discussion above but it is defiantly worth looking into. Does anyone have any thoughts on which nations may still posses some left over nukes? Should we make a page deciated to the serch for missing/loose nikes? (If so I'll gladly start one up.) --GOPZACK 21:09, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Israel would have a few still. They have already used a couple post-Doomsday. India would also still have nukes post-Doomsday, but since it has balkanized, it might be possible that more than one successor state has one. Mitro 23:06, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about the PUSA or the USSR? --GOPZACK 23:16, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any nuclear weapons in PUSA territory would either already be used on Doomsday or destroyed when the Soviet nukes hit the silos there. The USSR is another story. Mitro 23:32, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Israel would definitely have a full and intact nuclear arsenal. Based on my research, they would have had missiles, bombs, artillery shells, and mines. Two other thoughts though. South Africawas engaged in a nuclear weapons program in 1983, so what would have happened there as the nation fell apart. Also, I think it would stand to reason some smaller nukes would have escaped the USSRinto nearby nations, perhaps ex-military using them as bargaining chips. As I mentioned earlier about Iraq, I think some of these soldiers would head there and logic indicates maybe parlay with Iraq for asylum be giving them give them a couple of artillery shells or something smaller, which they could then use against the Iranians. However, I think it likely they would be squandered quickly and as such, Iraqwould only briefly be a nuke power. Shells, suitcase nukes, mines, and mortars are likely what would be floating around there, Europe, and the old US rather than missiles. It would of course depend on where such items were stored and if a site survived the war. As such, we would have to determine, if possible, where these were in 1983. Fxgentleman 23:42, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

USSR certianly would have them. Israel is a definate possibility. "Pacific France" or whatever its called might have some based around the old Force de Frappe SSBNs, while some European nations might have old tactical nukes such as the SS-20, Pershing and such and such. Prussia, the two Polands and Belarus are likely candidates in this catergory. the PUSA probably has some B61s stashed away somwhere. Scary thought: Scily might have nukes recovered from the nuclear sharing agreemnent storage stations. --HAD 09:43, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Hello? Any readers?HAD 16:25, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Additions to headlines
why do the recent WRCB headlines seem like proposals rather then statments. surely you propose soemeting onb the takpage then create a headline?--HAD 16:26, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Why does Virginia and the Dixie Alliance care about what is going on in California? Mitro 03:30, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * And how do they know? That - while not the topic of your question - brings up the topic of communications in 2010 TTL. How do the various nations know what's going on, unless the Associated Press or UPI (or Reuters) was resurrected? We have to assume some reliable, global press agency is operational and informing people on what's going on...we also have to assume that's how the Dixie Alliance is aware of California and keeping up with it. So the alliance can support whomever they want, but practically, it would do well to concentrate more on the Cannibal Hordes of Nuked Memphis than the Chumash Republic. BrianD 05:40, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, "Cannibal Hordes" -- in 2010? Joking, right? SouthWriter 12:50, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to go with South on this one. I have no doubt that in some places there were outbreaks of cannibalism, but any "bands" would have burned themselves out a long time ago. Mitro 13:13, March 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, I claim Reuters. Someone else can create the WCRB Press Agency or claim UPI or whatever. BrianD 05:40, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

It can be certain that such places as stable as Australia and New Zealand, and parts of South America, would have news agencies that did not depend on the "international" new agencies for their stories. They would have agents around the world covering things and getting the news back home by whatever media was available. The news in the northern hemisphere after DD, though, would depend on the re-establishment of radio broadcasts and relay stations to get the word back to Jarvis Bay, etc. I figure their would be at least two agencies - one in ANZC and one in SAC. The USSR would probably also have one up and running as well. Any group that wanted complete coverage would have to work with all three regional agencies.

By 2010, of course, there would be Reuters (as Brian has established) and probably an American agency working out of a stable area like West Texas. And then there could be "leaks" from intelligence agencies via shortwave broadcasts that could be picked up and judicially shared. SouthWriter 12:50, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to object to this whole Virginia-Chumash union. The current state of North America makes any such organization highly improbable. Furthermore it is unlikely that either state could provide aide to the other in case they are attacked. Mitro 15:58, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Glad to be alive
Sometimes when I am working on this TL I become struck by the enormity of the disaster that was averted. I got this while working on the article. Everyday I add a new city, a new place that thousands or millions of people died in this ATL, and so many who will never be born (including myself). Really makes you feel glad to be alive huh? Mitro 18:21, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. BrianD 05:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Ditto on that. On the record, I must say that nuclear weapons and the whole concept of detterent scares the bejebus out of me.HAD 11:31, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, HAD. I never have figured out what those letters mean, by the way. I guess it shows how we are "divided by a common language." For instance, your sentence above misses the American usage in the first two phrases. We usually say "ditto TO that" and "FOR the record." By the way, the word is not "bejebus," but rather "an aleration of by Jesus." (and thus a 'minced oath').


 * As far as "mutually assured destruction" (aptly known as 'MAD'), more cool heads have called it "peace through strength." The Roman legends had peace because everyone knew they would be annihilated if they crossed the emporer. That was "peace through strength." When "super powers" arise, it becomes within their best interests to assure each other that an attack will bring misery to both sides. Diplomacy, then, becomes the better part of valor. Only a madman (no pun intended on the acronym) would attack an opponent that there is little chance of defeating. 'Detterent,' though, is necessary because otherwise there are those that will 'take advantage' of the weak. That is the nature of mankind. "Madmen" do come to power, and 'passive' defense is not always the best idea. If a madman can direct an army from behind the lines, then he will. If, however, the opponent comes to him, he must show himself stronger or resort to diplomacy. Therefore, if the oppressor is convinced that the victom is stronger, or just as strong and willing to retaliate, he will hold off attacking. That is 'deterrent.' SouthWriter 13:21, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of the nature of deterrent. The problems arise when it fails or accidents happen, as postulated in this scenario. By the by, HAD means nothing. At all. If pressed, i'd say it means "Happiness And Dignitiy". Secondly, i am aware of my admittingly bizzare use of the English language. Any unusual phrase-turns are delibrate, designed to amaze and impress. HAD 13:32, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, you are 'playing with' our language. I have fun reading the likes of FERO, for whom the English is a second language. However, when an Englishman attempts to turn the phrases, it is confusing to say the least. It is like the Masad agent on NCIS in her misuse of American idiom, it is good for a laugh when it happens unintentionally. Intentional misuse, though, needs to be more subtle. Something is indeed "on the record" if it is written down. "For the record" denotes permission to record one's statement. So, saying "on the record" should mean that what you are saying has already been recorded. If so, I guess we'd have to see a reference to verify that, huh? [ Just 'poking your leg,' Hap.]


 * FYI, when I first saw those initials I was reminded of an African Violet plant. I gave it to my wife on our first anniversary. She named the plant "HAD" - short for "Henry and Debbie" (our names). You once challenged your readers on these talk pages to figure out what your use of "HAD" stood for (it's 'on the record,' but I don't know the search terms to easily find it!), so I actually tried to figure it out. Not being up on British idiom, though, I gave up. By the way, flower of the original "HAD" is pressed in an old dictionary of ours - next to the entry for 'had.'


 * I, also, am 'glad to be alive,' for my life is wrapped up in that of the One who holds all that we call 'now' together! (1 Cor. 8:6)

Fair enough, my South Carolinian Friend. From now on, i will stick to "simple english" english, alliteration and all!HAD 14:33, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

I would have lived even if the nukes were launched. Makes me thank god that I was born in a small town in southern Manitoba!

Yankovic270 23:08, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Lucky you. Never clicked on to why you call yourself "Yankovic 270". If i were Canadian, i would be "CF-105" or something. HAD 23:01, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's because I am a hugely obsessed fan of Alfred "Weird Al" Yankovic.

Yankovic270 23:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal overload
Ah! 60+ proposals on the docket. Please take the chance to review some of these articles and state whether you think they are ready to be graduated. Mitro 22:48, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yikes, my attempts at graduating are not keeping pace with the proposals. Again, if you have the chance review some articles and move for them to be graduated. Mitro 17:32, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know this won't solve the current problem, but I was wondering if I could change the name of a recently graduated article. It's the Nanchung article. Why is it called that way, I mean, it is clearly based on the city of Nanchang and I can't find the name Nanchung anywhere. Can I move the article and correct the name?--93.138.118.165 17:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)
 * Well I did find "Nan-ch'ung" which is the Wade-Giles spelling of the city. Mitro 17:55, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if the city could be spelled that way, I guess we could leave it alone, it's just that Nanchang seems to be the more prevalent way of writing the name. Anyway, maybe we really should have designated proposal readers, or at least a limit on how many articles per week until the ones that aren't graduated eventually are because this is getting silly. By trying to quickly graduate articles we run the risk of creating canon content that doesn't fit well with other content. We should at least try and slow down. Oh, and I can't edit for some reason -.---93.138.118.165 18:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)
 * What you say is true. We don't want to rush articles into canon that are not ready. However if you do know of any articles that you think should be graduated, please tell me. That being said we also want to avoid turning this project into work. Appointing people to be proposal readers just sounds like to much bureacracy for an AH timeline built by volunteers. As for limits, well we might be able to lean on veteran editors to finish their current articles before proposing new ones, but how do we prevent new editors from proposing articles when they might not have read our rules? Article limits and reviewers sound good on paper, but I think implementing them will cause to many issues. Mitro 18:10, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realize that, but something needs to be done. I mean, I see around ten articles in the proposals that can be graduated. Some that really talk about already established stuff, some that I don't see the harm of graduating, and I'll say which ones later. But there are others that are practically empty. Did we really need to bring them up here? Shouldn't we wait until there is something to comment on? Sure, this way we bring up articles that couldn't possibly exist before the person takes the time to write it, but this way we just clutter the talk page and create a situation that isn't really that alarming.--93.138.118.165 18:18, April 12, 2010 (UTC)(Vladivostok)
 * Maybe you are right about waiting to create a section on this talk page until the article is a little more substantial. That being said some people get sidetracked and abandon articles. Also some editors might not even know the proposal exists unless its listed on the portal page or here. In a way by listing the proposal here it acts to advertise this to the entire group, which promotes the TL in the long run. All that aside, your right, maybe I have been making this situation more alarming than it really is, but it would be nice to just clear up the Proposal category of anything that doesn't need to be there anymore. Mitro 18:30, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Good points. I'll give my opinion on the articles below now and try and help out with this situation. Which is entirely not alarming! :-) --Vladivostok 18:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I have three sugestions for you Mitro, 1st remove all the articles that have no content (Delete them or leave them its your choice), 2nd is to put a notice at the top of the proposals section that says "Anyone can graduate an article if there is nothing in it that breaks cannon, reasonabley spelled and no one has raised objections in (A certain period of time)". 3rd is to get contributors to list the articles they think can be graduated on a seperate page i.e Talk:1983: Doomsday/Graduation sugestions Vegas adict 18:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I'm going to implement your first two suggestions, restating the wouldn't hurt anybody.  However I don't think we should created a new page for graduating articles.  This page serves that purpose already and creating another page where people will have to go to will just make the whole process that much more formal and more confusing to new users.  Mitro 18:59, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Slow down there Vegas. As much as I appreciate you trying to help, at least lets ask if anyone has any objections to marking those articles as obsolete.  Mitro 19:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

Following the resolution of the Spokane War, and resettlement of southern Idaho by the communities surrounding Boise, and as far out as Burns, Frenchglen, Andrews, Basque, Rome and Jordan Valley, OR, DeLamar, Dewey and Murphy, ID, as far north as Horseshoe Bend, Indian Valley, Cambridge, Heath, ID, and Joseph, Minam, La Grande and Baker City, OR began to work together in a loose cooperative. By 2000 the region had begun referring to itself as Cascadia. By late 2009, letters asking official recognition by Utah and Lincoln as a self-governing entity.


 * Since this was now mentioned in the News Feed, is this up for graduation?Oerwinde 08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because something is mentioned in the news feed does not mean it is canon. Mitro 12:42, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed - it's not canon - but I generally try to make my contributions reasoned and within the zeitgeist of the timeline. Hopefully y'all will agree with me and graduate it at some point in the near future - but I'm content to wait until others graduate my article. No abuse of "powers" here. Louisiannan 15:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about it? Nothing conflicts with existing QSS - it's not going to be a major mover and shaker (at least for now, if ever), and it doesn't really impact anyone, not the MSP, not Pasco, not Lincoln (Idaho). What do ye say, friends? Louisiannan 20:29, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only issue I really have with the article is this line: Idaho was struck with a nuclear bomb at Boise - and that changed everything. Most local cities continued as normal...
 * Seems a tad bit unlikely that things would be "normal" after a nuclear war. Maybe reword that line to showcase some of the post-Doomsday chaos that covered most of North America. I would fully support graduation then. Mitro 02:08, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

My article about a small town in Illinois that survived Doomsday. Mitro 00:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I had been hoping to contribute to this one, since I actually know a lot about it, but I don't think it's going to happen. Graduation time? Benkarnell 16:43, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually could we wait before graduating this. I want a chance to finish writing the history of the city-state first. I realize this has been a proposal for a month now but I am just asking for a little more time. Mitro 17:31, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Life is making it to difficult to write for the TL. Is anyone interested in adopting this article? Mitro 17:23, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take this off your hands if you'd like. Seeing as I have done a decent amount in the area. --GOPZACK 19:46, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I have been thinking about updating this page but I need some help. First off what exactly happened to ? There has been some debate about whether it remained a unified nation or whether it collapsed after Doomsday. A decision on this will help me work out the history of Assyria and also effect this article:. On a side note I changed the article of Jordan a little in response to my edits. The Jordan article stated that Jordan and Assyria share a border which seems unlikely considering the likely location of Assyria in northern Iraq. Mitro 14:49, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Iran has been more or less a unified country in some form for thousands of years. I would keep it that way.Oerwinde 16:42, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I have no issue with the change as if applies to Jordan. At the time, my understanding, based on my reading, was that Iraq was being referenced as the Assyrian Republic. However, I would like to raise a question concerning Iraq. Ever since I first started my work on the Middle East, I have been crafting what I thought would be a sensible scenario for the future. However, I got delayed in putting this out for consideration. Further, it involves several articles I did not create. Since I am getting started again on this region, I wanted to present my scenario for this portion of the Middle East. Iraq and Iran reach a temporary ceasefire following Doomsday in their war, with neither being struck by bombs since it made little sense for this to happen. Iraq emerges from this period of regrouping in earlier 1984 (perhaps enlivened with Soviet military refugees and weapons looking for work), launching a full scale attack against Iran using Scud missiles as they did per OTL, with the difference they heavily bombard Iran and their cities with chemical weapons, since there is no US, USSR, or UN to stop them. An invasion follows with Iraq reaching Tehran and the nation surrendering and Ayatollah Khomeini dying either in the attack or from a heart attack (he died in 1989 OTL). The Kurdish region of Iran breaks off and merges with its parent region from the old Turkey to create Kurdistan. Iraq annexes western Iran along with Kharg Island with the remaining portion of Iran forming a new government. The rest of the Arabian Peninsula does not do anything to stop them, given they don’t care for the Islamic Republic. A few years pass and an emboldened S. Hussein overruns and annexes Kuwait as well and briefly threatens Saudi Arabia, who fights him off with the help of the other nations of the peninsula. He now turns against the survivor nation in eastern Syria (which I am getting ready to add) and invades. This is too much for Israel who orders Hussein to stop his advance. When he refuses, they nuke Bagdad, killing him, as well as dropping a bomb on his advance army. The new Iraq disintegrates and the Saudi’s and their allies take advantage of the chaos and invade, liberating Kuwait. The Kurdish region of Iraq finally breaks free and joins Kurdistan. It is important to note Hussein would never have given this area up while alive and had used repressive measures, including mass killings and chemical weapons, to control them. Under the benevolent influence of the Arabian Union (a coalition of Arabian nations akin to OTL European Union), Iraq regroups under a new name including their captured area of Iran. At this point, smaller sub nations would emerge such as the new Assyrian Republic. I am currently working on several Middle East articles, including one for Saudi Arabia, and would like to use some of this. Understandably, I don’t want to conflict with what someone else is laying out, so please give me your thoughts. --Fxgentleman 16:52, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure if Iran or Iraq would not be attacked. The US Department of Defense suggested in the 1980s that in case of WWIII the Soviet Union would invade the Middle East to deny the US access to the oil. Mitro 17:05, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

My general thought, has been nations firmly in one camp or the other (East vs. West) would make them likely targets of attack in 1983, which is why I argued (and still do) Egypt would have been hit. Iran hated both the US and the USSR. Iraq played both sides, but did tend to lean slightly to the Soviets. This does not put them on the list to likely get nuked. Also, we have to think back as to how this came about. The Soviets are reacting to what they believe is a sneak attack on Doomsday and as such, are going against those elements which immediately threaten it. If this was a thought out plan of conquest, then yeah, I would agree that a strike on Tehran would be a good idea followed by a ground invasion via Russia and Afghanistan. However, the USSR is going to be shattered and will not be thinking ahead towards something like this. This said, your point is good, but I cannot see how it applies in this case. --Fxgentleman 17:18, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by me. Hoping it will detail the American refugees who fled to other parts of the world after Doomsday. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by new user. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. See also. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Graduation time? --GOPZACK 20:09, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Rather than taking up additional space by making a new posting here, I am modifying the one I originally posted on March 15 [enclosed below] to incorporate all my work. As part of my work on the Middle East, I posted my article for Saudi Arabia on the 15 and one for the UAE as of today. I will post additional articles this week for Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. Additionally, I posted an article on March 20 concerning the Gulf States Union, a political and economic union between the Arabian nations. My apologies for not being able to post something sooner here on the page regarding it. My apologies for the delay in putting this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy until just recently. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. Fxgentleman 02:52, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

As a follow-up to what I have been discussing for awhile, I have created an article for Saudi Arabia as part of my return to the Middle East. I will be following up with more articles regarding other Arabian nations and for a unified body for the region. Additionally, I will be resuming my work as well for those I am already working on. My apologies for taking a while to put this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy. Fxgentleman 05:06, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * While Saudi Arabia still needs some work, any objections to graduating the UAE and Gulf States Union?Oerwinde 08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Although I still have to do some tweaking to the GSU and UAE articles, I would be grateful to have them graduated. As my article on S. Arabia is still a work in progress I could not recommend it for graduation just yet. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Essex and History of Essex
A survivor state in Essex, East London and Hertfordshire. The article generates a little conflict with established canon, but I'm fully willing to negotiate. I'm also unsure as to how other users feel my nation should interact with others, so the 'international relations' part is currently blank (as is much of the history, which I will slowly add over the coming days - I don't want to swamp people here). The entire history is extensively researched (it should be - I'm local!) so I would be disappointed if this proposal were rejected; but as I said, I am fully prepared to negotiate issues of canon conflict. Fegaxeyl 14:25, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

It seems okay to me. After a quick glance the only minor problems I can see are East London being being part of the state and the overall size of the state. I was thinking maybe Essex could claim to control East London but not really have any concrete control of the area in the same way that Woodbridge "claims" to control Ipswich. Verence71 16:39, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is effectively the case. Essex does have links with London communities, supplying them with aid and so forth, but much of the East End is unexplored and dangerous due to both hostile groups and radiation. As I post up more history the situation should seem more logical. Fegaxeyl 17:03, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough then :) Verence71 20:00, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Verence71, as Woodbridge is Essex's nearest neighbour, how do you see the two nations interacting? Part of the reason I included the part over wishes to change to a new currency is to have Essex eventually converting to the New Pound, your nation's currency, as I imagine our two states would grow very close politically and economically after discovering each other. The question is, how and when did they discover each other? Fegaxeyl 20:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I had an thought that any first contact between Essex and Woodbridge would come about as a result of a minor military skirmish. Troops from Woodbridge scouting south could "bump into" troops from Essex scouting north. Those troops returning home could tell their respective govts about what happened and then they could try and contact each other by radio. Assuming that all goes well and we both calm down them perhaps the border between Essex and Woodbridge could be fixed at the River Stour. Verence71 21:00, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds appropriate - perhaps one of your 'infrequent raids' in Ipswich could coincide with an Essex expedition? Speaking of which, according to my research the Stour and Ipswich would have received a fairly significant dose of fallout from a bomb over Harwich and Felixstowe. When would be a good time for contact? In my history Essex first begins to look seriously at foreign exploration around 2000. Fegaxeyl 21:12, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would there have been a bomb over Felixstowe?? I only ask cos I was thinking of having Woodbridge turn Felixstowe back into a trading port. As for first contact 2000 seems about right. Perhaps Essex could send a scouting party north as a result of seeing a Woodbridge helicopter flying south towards London in 1999 Verence71 21:27, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Felixstowe was one of the UK's biggest ports in 1983, and Harwich, being just across the river, would have almost certainly been hit too as they represented major parts of the UK economy. A 100kt warhead detonated over the village of Shotley would be enough to flatten both the ports, and I can't imagine the Soviets avoiding a chance to destroy an important part of Britain's industry. And besides, if the ports survived, then wouldn't most of the populations in our nations have leaped at the chance to take the ships there and escape to New England? Fegaxeyl 21:33, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't put anything in concrete yet if I were you as there has been some concern voiced over the recent increase in the number of British survivor states. I'd have a word with Mitro if I were you. Verence71 21:38, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * (Predictable, generic grousing about the map being too big). Overall, yeah, should be fine. I object to the size, not for plausibility reasons, but for reasons of canon. It's pretty much established that there's nothing this big in England. But otherwise, it's good. Benkarnell 17:58, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe if the state was about half as big as it is currently proposed to be?? Verence71 19:53, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

If that were so it wouldn't be the combined communities of Essex, Hertfordshire and London - it would just be Essex. But would we be okay if I were to shave away half of Hertfordshire and most of the claimed part of London? Fegaxeyl 20:41, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't this conflict with the Celtic Alliance? I thought they had a mission in the area. Mitro 20:45, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there's nothing wrong with both Essex and the C.A. having a presence in the London area. Borders are a lot more fluid in this world than in ours. Benkarnell 20:56, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Essex would probably claim up to the series of reserviors along the River Lea (though they would probably be a single large radioactive lake by the 1990s). Provided the CA explore to the west of this area, and Essex to the east, there probably wouldn't be any meetings or conflicts. I'm surprised no one has pointed out the fact that I've said Colchester survives, whilst the CA page (and I think the Cleveland page too) say that it was nuked. How do we feel? In fact, what was the justification for it being hit in the first place? Fegaxeyl 21:09, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Remember gentlemen and possible ladies (i have no idea who any of you are) that London probably recieved 2 SS-18 "Satan" ICBMs carrying 10 500KT warheads each. London is gone. HAD 18:49, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

'''I've just made some changes and additions, and moved the completed history section to its own page. Fegaxeyl 16:17, April 6, 2010 (UTC)'''

State College
GOPZACK's proposal for the OTL home of Penn State University. BrianD 19:47, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for the present day situation in TTL Ohio. --GOPZACK 20:10, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

The proposal is about the people in the Berkshires.CheesyCheese 23:53, March 23, 2010 (UTC)CheesyCheese 19:51, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Iran (1983: Doomsday) and some related ideas
Moved to Talk:Iran (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 14:44, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There, I've made an extensive history of early Iranian history post-Doomsday. I'd appreciate any input.--Vladivostok 12:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Two similar articles created by seperate editors. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any objections to graduation for the Helenese article? Saint Helena needs some work, the population is unrealistic, etc.Oerwinde 08:41, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Potential leader of Virginia. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Baconton. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty empty. The idea's OK in theory, but I think we at least need to clarify the extent of the destruction in Crimea. Two missiles actually seems sort of light for such a strategically important region. Sevastopol was one of the main naval bases in the USSR. Overall I hope this is not the last Russian statelet to appear. We have so many in the US. Benkarnell 22:05, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the part of them colonizing parts of Turkey is pretty weak. There are too many minature empires in this TL already. Furthermore wouldn't the Turks have something to say about Crimean colonies? Mitro 14:40, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Military conflict involving Dixie Alliance and the town of Jackson. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Graduation time? --GOPZACK 20:09, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've commented on it, Zack. Louisiannan 20:30, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think South had some reservations about this war as well. You might want to ask him whether those have been resolved. Mitro 22:29, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

League of Britons
Proposed league of nations in Britain to counteract growing influence of Celtic Alliance and New Britain. Bob 16:49, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Woodbridge could well be interested in signing up Verence71 19:10, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Essex would be very interested in joining too. Fegaxeyl 11:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Whitehorse
My proposal for the current TTL situation in former Yukon.BrianD 21:33, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed "Lost colony" in the former South Carolina
Following up on the "discovery of two communities in the western part of the state by the WCRB, I have written an article to account for the lack of contact of those people with the larger community in the upstate. Since I have the explorers of from Piedmont "missing" them in 1991 (partly because they only went as far as the outskirts of Columbia on the Broad River), I postulate that they were largely "relocated," if not wiped out by what we called "Hurricane Hugo" in 1989. I call the "colony" the "Peedee Nation" in honor of the almost extent Pee Dee tribe of Native Americans that lived in the area. One of the "borders" of the nation was the Great Pee Dee River.

I need to fill in the details, but it is assumed that the residents in the area between blasts just settled down and lived along the rivers. Unfortunately, few of them recognized the signs of a hurricane bearing down on them.

Missouri
A proposal about my home state of Missouri. --Jnjaycpa 05:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
I just made a proposal about the Republic of Georgia, a breakaway Georgia that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Poole, Dorset
Is there any chance of my home town of Poole, Dorset surviving? I ask because there is a Royal Marine Commando base in the town where the SBS are based. Would this be enough to make the town a target?HAD 20:53, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

If anything, I believe Poole (after a quick bit of research) would only be targeted for its harbour, though I have a feeling only a large port there would attract Soviet nukes. I doubt that it would be targeted as an RMC base - I hold that Colchester, a garrison town, wouldn't have been hit - so it would probably be okay. I imagine the only major concern would be the possibility of radiation that may drift towards it from an attack on Portland Harbour, HQ of the Royal Navy as of Doomsday. Fegaxeyl 14:47, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

The Portland/Weymouth area is located in a "dip", as it were. I'm no expert, but surely the radiation/blastwave/heatwave would be contained by these hills, as happened to Nagasaki? Nagasaki and Hiroshima are the unluckest cities in the entire world. HAD 09:50, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

True, but Portland Harbour is a very big target, and if the Soviets wanted to take it out with one bomb then its size, and the height required to detonate it, would probably mean at least some fallout or blast would escape from the depression. (But I won't argue with you over local geography - you live there, after all, I've only visited the town). However, some radiation would probably be driven by currents or winds out of the harbour and along the channel, towards Poole. Fegaxeyl 10:32, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

It is entirly possible that the military base would've been hit by a small tactical nuclear weapon (Under 1 kiloton) as the base is fairly small. Poole harbour could've also been a target, but as Southampton and Portland harbours just round the corner it possible that they would've taken the main hits (or at least been the major targets of the soviets) but then you've got the problem of radioactive fallout.--Smoggy80 18:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ozarkia
A proposal of a survivor nation in southeastern Missouri. Jnjaycpa 06:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

,, &
Me & Southwriter's proposals for the Dakotas. --GOPZACK 19:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Virginian Comics
Article by Yank. Mentioned on the Comics page pretty much from the beginning so I don't see a problem graduating it.Oerwinde 08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where are they getting the paper from - how are they circulating the comics, who's drawing them, how are they publishing them? These should be addressed in the article before graduation. Louisiannan 15:03, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I was going to focus more on the unique characters published by the company, but I'll answer your questions as best as I can. Yankovic270 15:29, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) They do what they do with the metal for their guns and ammo- use recycled paper
 * 2) By pre-doomsday style mailmen in the more developed parts, a more Wild West version in the rural areas.
 * 3) Both surviving employees of the pre-Doomsday major comics companies (don't ask for names- I don't know any) and fresh-faced rookies.
 * 4) In a formerly abandoned newspaper HQ retooled to produce comics.
 * Like I say, work this into the article, and it should be fine...we just need to support these things in the world in which we decide they exist. Louisiannan 15:35, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Muslim Liberation Army
A proposal for a terrorist organization tied to Iran with a base of operations in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.--Vladivostok 10:37, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The article has been expanded by a new user. Check it out. Mitro 22:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not a bad article, I like it. However I don’t see why Indonesia was nuked on DD. As far as I can tell it wasn’t aligned with either side nor had any strategic value. So far I can’t see any reasoning behind the attack.--ShutUpNavi 23:18, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, this is my explanation of why Indonesia was nuked. During the first president (Sukarno)'s reign, Indonesia was an ally of Russia and China. It's relation with the West deteriorated. Indonesia - Russia relations were in the peak." Indonesia received a substantial amount of aid from Russia and East Europe.But then the abortive coup by the Communist Party of Indonesia in 1965 triggered an anti communist sentiment among Indonesian people. The relations of both countries of both countries reached the lowest level but it never cut off. Indonesia was also close with China before 1965 but after 1965,at that time there was violence toward Sukarno-loyalists and Chinese (both Chinese-Indonesian and Chinese expatriates) "Indonesia's friendly diplomatic relations with mainland China were severed, and the Chinese Embassy in Jakarta burnt down by a mob. New legislation included the banning of Chinese language signs on shops and other buildings, and the closure of Chinese language schools, adoption of "Indonesian" sounding names." from wikipedia,transition to new order Tji 13:57, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Southern Texas
A proposal for three small nation-states in TTL southern Texas. BrianD 01:56, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * FYI - an accompanying rewrite of West Texas and eastern Texas is coming this week. BrianD 02:03, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm finished with the article if anyone wants to review, graduate, object, etc. BrianD 23:25, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

A news proposal much like the Riley.Konner 11:26, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Northern Texas and central Texas
A proposal for survivor towns in TTL northern and central Texas. BrianD 22:15, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm finished with the article if anyone wants to review, graduate, object, etc. BrianD 23:25, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Blank article created by Zack. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections as marking this as obsolete until Zack or another editor decides to work on the article again? Mitro 19:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * None from me. Louisiannan 22:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. One of the states of PUSA. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Azokoatron. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 22:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

New York City
Proposal for the status of the New York City region in TTL. BrianD 15:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you ever read Resurrection Day? The main character actually take a trip into the nuked remains of NYC. Granted the book's POD involved the Cuban Missile Crisis. Mitro 15:29, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Never. I did read Warday, where missiles hit in Long Island in a very limited nuclear exchange. Manhattan was being stripped when the main characters reached the city. I'll look for your book on Amazon. BrianD 15:31, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I've read Resurrection Day several times. It is a very good novel. HAD 21:52, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm finished with the article if anyone wants to review, graduate, object, etc. BrianD 23:22, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

North America
Due to its incredible length, this discussion has moved to Talk:North America (1983: Doomsday).

Oil
It seems like every nation and their dog has discovered oil post-doomsday and it has led to economic boom. Problem is, with so many nations discovering oil, and the major markets for it being wiped out, the value would drop astronomically, meaning no economic boom from it. I've been guilty of this as well, but just realized it when reading the St Helena article.Oerwinde 08:38, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I have been examining the oil angle given how it affects the Middle East nations I am working on. At the time of 1983, the world oil market was in a downturn because of an oil glut and as a result prices were dropping. Per our OTL they did not bottom out to 1986. The most immediate effect of DD would be the loss of major customers, which in turn would affect costs. I believe oil was going for about $35 a barrel as of 1983. In my GSU article, I projected a drop to about $5 by early 1984. In the long run, the difference might be how easy is it to get and transport. Over time the big plus for established oil nations is that the necessary infrastructure would already be in place. For the short term smaller nations with access to oil or natural gas deposits would be able to survive but as time moves on and industrialization increases there would be a need for oil and such. I think by 2010, you would see trading having picked up.--Fxgentleman 19:34, April 9, 2010 (UTC)