Talk:German South West Africa (1983: Doomsday)

Welcome to the project, and thanks for contributing! I think this is a good (re-)start to DSWA. I like that it's being re-imagined as a small survivor community. It's not feasable to create a neo-neo-imperialist nation in Namibia, because the number of Germans that it's possible to have there is still so small. I also think a totally new flag is in order. The "Otto Von Bismarck" flag just seems very, very unrealistic in this time period. Benkarnell 16:02, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * To this very day in our very own timeline Otto von Bismarck's tricolour remains in use by the German minority of Namibia, so it appears to me as by far the most appropriate flag for their state, I really don't see what is so unrealistic about it. I think the usage of the word "refugees" is a bit inappropriate in the article, the Deutschnamibier are already present, even in a position of considerable power. I guess they'd just stay in Windhoek. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 18:08, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it? I admit I'm not familiar with that topic, but I'm looking through a number of deutschnamibier sites, and I don't see any pictures of that flag - lots of Namibian flags, a few 1848/BRD German tricolors, and one or two South African flags, but no Imperial German tricolors.  Benkarnell 19:13, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

German Africa
Can I adopt the article relating to the German government in Africa? I have an idea of where to take this, inlcuding possibly reunifying it with the North German government, from where most of the refugees are derived. Lahbas 02:45, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with you adopting it, but I'm not sure that actual unification with a nation so far away would be practical. Perhaps they would create an "Alliance of German States", kind of like la Francophonie? --DarthEinstein 02:49, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Though I have no problem with you adopting it, I agree with Darth that it is unlikely for them to unite with North Germany. They are already members of the New Union of South Africa.  I do forsee close relations and maybe even some sort of international organization tying them together.  Mitro 18:02, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Canon?
I must say I really don't like way this state is established, and it surprises me that this was canonised merely two days after having been written. The article has a shamefully Eurocentric outlook in the fact that it seriously only speaks of a convoy of Germans leaving Bremerhaven that settle in one of the most unlikeliest of places they could possibly go to, and only makes a brief mention of the actual 'Nambibians' as a bunch of lawless insurgents that are eventually given suffrage by the great and tremendously benevolent colonial administration, and then go on to disappear into nothingness. Seriously, just why on earth would a ship full of 'Deutschländer' head for, of all places, the Skeleton coast? The place didn't get that name because it's like Cockaigne or anything. And the very idea of a substantially damaged society that would most likely have degraded into utter chaos, managing to organise this epic scale mass migration strikes me as fanciful and absolutely unlikely. Apparently this society settling in the dust of South West Africa manages to stabilise and consolidate so quickly that it already has fully operational democratic systems in place to elect a new Chancellor (btw. does 'Conservative party' refer to the FDP liberals here?). I'm terribly sorry to say, but to me this version of the DSWA is pure ASB. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 10:23, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * I have marked the article as a proposal until this dispute is cleared up. Mitro 14:49, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with you Karsten. Although I could see a German state in South West Africa, it would be made up of local German descended Namibians living in Windhoek, not actual Germans from Germany. Its territory would also be substantially smaller, likely limited to only the Khomas Region.--ShutUpNavi 19:35, October 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is actually a (no doubt unintentional) rehashing of some of the early, bad versions of New Britain: the whites in the country up and bring hundreds of thousands of countrymen over from Europe with no funding, no resources, and no real reason, either, since presumably they were concerned with issues like how to eat and how to find clean water. The only possible motivation, presumably, is to create a nation of whites in Darkest Africa, something that would be very far down on the "to do" list of any survivors or refugees in Walvis Bay.  Sorry, Lahbas, this one can't happen.
 * There's a much bigger reason to object to the rewrite, however, which is that it was essentially hijacked from a new contributor, Connornics. S/he admittedly slipped in and wrote it without introducing him/herself, and then vanished again, but I think his/her version at least deserves a few days' consideration before being obliterated by something new.
 * I was beginning to regret the day that somebody first mentioned DSWA in an offhand way, and the idea of DSWA gradually seeped its way into the canon; I was afraid it would lead to all sorts of ideas like this one. But Connornics' version, which focused on a small, German-speaking survivor community, had for a moment put those fears to rest.  Now, they're back.  South and Southwest Africa are not going to turn into a white paradise in this TL.  Like Angola, their history should be written mindful of what's actually happening in the region, not on unlikely scenarios of mass migration.
 * Benkarnell 20:45, October 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * I must say that I tried to avoid with what happened in regards to New Britain, having read that original article myself. Also, the Skeleton Coast was not a suggestion I had in mind. However, I had no other good location in mind. Europe, in a large part, would be considered a wasteland by any refugees and the existing administration, and therefore avoided. At the same time, such lawlessness would prevail over a large part of Africa that would be within reach, including independance movements in Angola (which has been canonized into a fractured state). It is for this reason I chose Namibia, which was at the time still under South African occupation, along with the area being described by the page. Democracy is set within the society, but only because of the force of arms of the American and German soldiers who were loyal to those elements. Also, the Namibians were only given equal rights to ethnic Germans following a long fought war with members of the SWAPO. I had originally meant of dividing Namibia in two; however, most of SWAPO was based in Angola at that time, and there were other orginisations fighting for influence, so it is likely that such a union would not have existed, or at least be ineffective.


 * If you have a better location in mind, tell me. I am open to methods of modification regarding the article. Lahbas 00:20, October 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Leaving out the most important part of my argument by accident, I must say they left Europe to do two things. One, to ensure that German culture will not perish entirely. Two, there was a general fear that stability could not be mantained in their current location, due to refugees and other factors; this was determined by the city leaders and those of the military. Lahbas 00:24, October 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * One problem I have is how easily the 2nd load of refugees is integrated. If 160 thousand people suddenly show up, there won't be supplies, jobs, housing, etc. Maybe if the refugee boats are staggered, bringing only 1-2 thousand every couple months it might be more plausible. --Oerwinde 08:13, October 23, 2009 (UTC)