Talk:Vatican (1983: Doomsday)

New Rome
I really think there should be a replacement (even if temporay) for Rome. Someplace for the bishops to gather and discuss Catholic affairs. --Yankovic270 22:08, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

I concur. However, if it would be a real nation or not is up to debate. The idea is that Latin American catholics are very devote, and the destruction of Rome would almost definately cause petitions to be drawn between the various governments for the creation of a Holy See within their respective nations. I have to say though, that Argentina would be the heavy favorite, lie=kely being the most stable of the nations.

The major matter, again, is if they would actually allow the creation of a Holy See, or if it were to become an autonomous region within the South American Federation. In my mind, I think it would become a independent political entity, funded largely by the governments, as a way to raise public morale in a time of darkness. However, there will likely be as many as seven popes in the beginning stages, possibly leading to further schisms. Lahbas 02:22, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Then you need to gather the cardinals and have them decide which is the real pope. Just like in more normal times. --Yankovic270 03:36, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Considering how dispersed the Catholic clergy is - outside the New World - following Doomsday, how would the Cardinals in South America react to the ones in, say, Europe and Southeast Asia? Maybe it would be a good idea to show the course the Church took in those regions before contact was restored. 114.108.192.48 07:29, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Wow
Great stuff folks, really wanted to see this take off. I've already done a bit of work on the Celtic Alliance in the early days, though I will now need to add more i.e. conference on joint Celtic Church formed out of the Catholic Churches in Eire and Scotland with the Church of Scotland (presbyterian) and Episcopalian Church Of Ireland.

On the matter of the creation of a new Vatican, we need to be mindfull that most Bishops and clergy will fing it difficult enough to deal with the aftermath of DD. The creation of an interm-Vatican will be the last thing on their minds. I think it would be better if we agreed a process where the senior clergy notably Cardinal Priests and Metropolitain(Senior Bishops) Archbishops set forth a process to remain loyal to the See of Peter and retain exisiting canon law until a new Pontiff is elected. Only then can a process for an interm-Vatican be set forth?

Really glad that the Asia section is coming on and look forward to seeing something on Christian Orthodoxy in Greece... Mjdoch 23 September 2009, 09:18 (GMT)

WW II precedent
We need to remember that Pope Puis XII had already laid out guidelines for this eventallity during the occupation of Rome by the Nazis during WWII. In the eventallity of the Pope being arrested or incapacitated by the regime, it was taken that he would have resigned automaticaly and authority would move to Rio given that Brazil is the largest Catholic nation on earth and a full conclave would be called Mjdoch 23 September 2009, 09:18 (GMT)

I agree with Mdjoch. If there is any good candidate for the replacement of the Vatican, its Rio de Janeiro. It would be easy to set up a new vatican, considering it was only about one mile squared. It just seems that the Catholic higher-ups need a place to gather, and as I said Rio is perfect. --Yankovic270 18:24, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that South America is the best place for "New Rome" in this TL. Mitro 20:32, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * What do people think about the creation of a semi-active Vatican State rather than a new Rome? The difference is that the Vatican just happens to be in Rome (technically) but could be anywhere, e.g. 1300's Avignon, France. Also, the Camerlengo does not have the authority to re-consitute a new Vatican state without the authority of the Bishop of Rome and I don't think we can have a new Pope until we flesh out more in the other parts of the TL i.e. Asia, Africa etc ...getting ahead of myself, but wondered if we should have the Camerlengo set up an office in the Embassy of the Papal Nuncio to Brazil to co-ordinate the church structure? Mjdoch 24 September 2009, 14:13 (GMT)

I bet when this "Camerlengo" finally manages to co-ordinate church structure, there would be another Pope selection. And it would only make sense that the reward for helping the Catholic Church back up on its feet would be the Papacy. There! We have had the obvious choice for Pope right under our noses all this time. By the way, who is the Camerlengo? --Yankovic270 11:03, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Yankovic, I think you are right though there have been 3 elected to the papacy in its history. Though in this instance I think it would eventully be the only choice. As of September 1983 the position of Camerlengo would be Cardinal Priest Eusebio Oscar Scheid, Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro. --Mjdoch 09:52, September 30, 2009 (GMT)

So we have got the candidate for the pope locked down, but what is he going to call himself? I don't know about you, but Pope Oscar I just sounds wrong. --Yankovic270 23:59, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * All the Popes have chosen regnal names. That's why right now we have Benedict, not Joseph.  Benkarnell

That was not what I asked. My question was what would the chosen regnal name be? --Yankovic270 02:07, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

A Canticle for Leibowitz...
Just realised that this is looking a wee bit like the Walter M. Miller, Jr. novel A Canticle for Leibowitz Mjdoch 24 September 2009, 14:13 (GMT)
 * Good novel. Mitro 13:55, September 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yea, great stuff though "Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman" follow up was a bit crazy! Some other books are coming to mind that might influence things in the TL e.g. Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale...?
 * I admit I have borrowed ideas from other nuclear apocalypse novels when writing articles. Some of the plot for the  is inspired from Doomsday Plus Twelve.  Mitro 15:03, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Folk of the Fringe by Orson Scott Card has been somewhat my inspiration for and, although with the climate article I looked up some scientific papers. Louisiannan 16:05, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

unhelpful comments
Just to remind folks that unhelpful comments such as the one listed under the Celtic Alliance and Europe really are not part of the TL rules..."Today, it offers hope and social welfare that contrasts the nihilism of the few remaining atheist circles". Sorry but if people happen to be athiest so what, it is not our place to judge peoples moral or social parameters. We must be mindful that christians fire atomic bombs too. Mjdoch 30 September 2009, 16:11 (GMT)