Talk:1983: Doomsday

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A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Thunder Bay referendum
Thunjnder Bay was supposed to hold a referendujm on joining Canda, Superior or staying independent a few mountsh a go. what would be the result of this?--HAD 18:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously this has been forgotten, just like the war in Saguenay and the war in Europe, just one of many problems I guess. And I think no one can speculate on the outcome other than the author, although I think that the referendum would be directly connected to the outcome of the war--Vladivostok 19:48, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Become a protectorate of Canada Merge with Superior Stay Independent

Note:My browser had a spasm and marked "Stay Independent" when I meant to mark "Merge With Canada". Arstarpool 19:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as none of the options reached a 50% threshold shall we move the top two vote getters to a runoff? --GOPZACK 01:45, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --Lordganon 10:12, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Stay Independent

Resetting the runoff poll because the "merge with Superior" option officially lost. It had seven votes, the other two had eleven. Yankovic270 15:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

How the hell is Thunder Bay supposed to "Merge With Canada"? Most of Ontario is still outside of Canadian control. For God's sake the Canadians have yet to reclaim southern Quebec, let alone Ontario. I think that Thunder Bay should stay independant until at least 2020, when the Canadian province of Ontario is officially restored.

Yankovic270 22:58, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

So it's a problem with Canada when they are to "merge" with Thunder Bay, but not a problem when the Virginians control eastern Virginia which was ripped to shreds by nukes. I sense hypocracy...Arstarpool 02:48, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Thunder Bay merging with Canada....'''eventually. '''Let's be rational here. It would be much more convienient for both parties if they held off the merging until Canada reclaims the territory between itself and Thunder Bay. Which, at this rate of expansion, is around '''2020. '''And et tu Arstarpool? I defend the Commonwealth of California/Californian Republic and this is the thanks you give me? I try to be rational and you snap at me. All I'm saying is wait until its plausible. Which at the earliest is still ten years from now.

Yankovic270 02:57, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How about we bring back the more plausible possibility of them merging with Superior? Arstarpool 03:09, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I had that on the original runoff poll but Yank cleared it off, in defense of Yank it varies region to region as to who joins who & such. Thunder Bay is different then Virginia & such. GOPZACK 03:12, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You guys need to remember that while dormant, a debate is still going on as to the actual condition of Ontario after Doomsday, and how it was originally made much, much worse sounding than it actually would have been.

Also, Canada does control the Ontario coast of Hudson's Bay - and Thunder Bay is not all THAT far from there.

While it is more plausible for them to join with Superior, it would still make some sense for them to join Canada.

On another note, whoever came up with that date for Ontario in the first place was likely wrong in some regard - sure, southern would be out, but Northern Ontario, except for North Bay, would be fine to establish a minimal territory/province, on the same level as Quebec.

Lordganon 12:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

While they are "not all THAT far" there are no roads to create a viable connection between the two. GOPZACK 04:26, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Erie PA
Was it hit? Arstar contends it survived, what do you guys think of this? In the interest of full disclosure it is listed as a targeted site on the Doomsday page. --GOPZACK 03:23, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

The way I figure it, by what has been hit so far with the Soviet nukes, they were making an effort to take away most if not all of the US steel-making capacity. It would be possible that it escaped being nuked, but by how things look the steel mills would have been hit by something, for sure.

But I see no reason myself for it to have no ability to function as a capital if a missile hits the mills.

Lordganon 04:03, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I would assume that the steel mills may have been spared, since the Soviets were undoubtedly screaming success at the destruction of Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and Pittsburg, they would have forgotten about the little steel mills at Eire. Arstarpool 04:29, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think the Soviets were too busy being incinerated by an American ICBM then to be "screaming with success" at the annihilation of Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and Pittsburg. --GOPZACK 04:54, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm...you're a real positive guy Zack. Arstarpool 05:03, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I usually am but this TL's POD incase you've forgotten is a all out nuclear war man! --GOPZACK 05:16, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

We can't let one steel mill through, though? Come on, man. I'm afraid to ask for a group consensus, since it's just me and LG versus the rest of the bunch...Arstarpool 06:05, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Thats how we do things here, by group consensus, so yes we are going to see what the community has to say. --GOPZACK 16:19, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I would love to support this city surviving, but lets face it. The Soviets are going to attempt to destroy American industry in their attacks, just as the Americans did to them. If they would attack Wheeling they are definitely going to strike Erie. If you can figure out a way that Erie could have survived, I say go for it. If its plausible and not the cliche "malfunctioning ICBM" it should absolutely be used.

Yankovic270 23:05, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, Yank. You seem to want vengance for the destruction of the Virginian steel mills. I will do a poll to see which of the survival scenarios is more plausible:

Option 1: "At 5:30 PM, a missile was detected 170 miles south of Erie. However, since the path of the missile was headed through the mushroom clouds around Pittsburg, the missile malfunctioned and crashed about 50 miles south of Erie, barely sparing the city from total destruction.

Option 2: A missile headed towards Erie was miscalculated when programmed and ended up crashing in Lake Erie.

Option 3: The nuclear missile launch site was hit by a missile launched from West Germany shortly after the missile directed towards Erie, damaging the missile and causing it to crash somewhere in western Poland.

Option 4: Erie itself was not an important target in a nuclear war since the Soviets had no knowledge of the steel mills located there.

Which scenario is more plausible? Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4


 * If the nuke went in Lake Erie there could be a Tsunami & the pristine water mentioned in the Pennsylvania article would be ruined. --GOPZACK 05:26, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

If Option two wins that mean Pittsburgh was nuked not abandoned. --GOPZACK 05:28, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

& finally option three may effect the articles in the area & the exact location of the nuke must be determined, who knows where the devil it will land. --GOPZACK 05:28, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I think a reasonable case could be made for the survival of Erie. At one time or another we have all discussed what might or might not have been targeted in the DD ATL. We have used the FEMA list as well as our own logic in trying to answer these questions. By this time I think we are in agreement 98% of all primary targets and at least 75% of secondary targets were struck. We can also agree it is reasonable to believe tertiary targets, which are normally population and industrial center sites targeted in follow-up attacks, likely escaped given the type of war which occurred, i.e. USSR reacting to assumed sneak attack. Further, both sides would have been exhausted by this point. The PA map shows no primary targets, five secondary targets, and 14 tertiary targets. I think a common misconception has been to assume why some targets were hit, believing one city was hit because it was a state capital or was known for certain industry, such as steel. Look beneath the surface however, and you find a military objective which would make said cities a target in the eyes of an enemy military. I carefully looked over the five secondary targets and found the following:

Harrisburg: Harrisburg IAP Air Guard Station home to 193 Special Operations Wing

Willow Grove: Willow Grove Naval Air Station

Scranton: Scranton Army Ammunition Plant, (US Army Industrial Facility)

Pittsburg: Allegheny County Airport, home to Pittsburgh Air Reserve Station, provides aerial refueling, air mobility and tactical airlift support to USAF & DOD)

Philadelphia: major metropolitan area and home to Philadelphia Naval Shipyards; Defense Industrial Supply Center, Defense Personnel Support Center, Philadelphia Naval Station My thought for DD would be all five areas would be destroyed, with Philadelphia especially being hit by two to three 1+ megaton weapons and the remaining targets 1-2 550 kiloton devices. I would also err on the side of logic and say the tertiary targets in the Harrisburg area might be destroyed or abandoned given their proximity. Strikes on Harrisburg would also likely rupture 3 Mile Island, which while closed because of the 1979 accident would contribute to fallout. The southeast part of the state would be hit extremely hard from fallout caused by the Harrisburg and Philadelphia strikes and those in the DC-Baltimore corridor and the likely rupture of the 3 Mile Island. I would see it being abandoned or become devoid of most human life for many years to come. For good measure I would include areas adjacent to New Jersey and New York getting hit by the fallout from strikes in those regions, maybe not as bad as the se area. I have put together a map to show my thoughts. Erie would not be out of the woods though, given the fallout from places like Canada, Ohio, Indiana, etc. You would definitely see deaths and long term health issues. This is just my thoughts. What do you think?--Fxgentleman 01:41, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I did my research. The only place fallout would be coming from would be Ohio, which has strikes right across the border. Arstarpool 02:21, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Fx I think that is a very reasonable rational explanation for Erie surviving and so long as nobody objects I don't have a problem with it not being hit. GOPZACK 02:31, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine, though Pittsburgh would have been hit with a bigger nuke / more of them than that. If you're going to hit a big city, you may as well get ALL the steel mills too ;)

Also, its not Pittsburg, but PITTSBURGH! Sorry, its bugged me that NONE of you can spell that right.

Lordganon 12:34, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Tuscany
So, I recently noticed that the Tuscany article conflicts with stated events in the Sicily article, which is WAY older. This is something no one noticed until after it was canonized. I brought it up with Arstarpool and his response was that he was going to edit the Sicily article to allow for Tuscany to exist pretty much as is. I disagree with him on that and brought up several ways to make Tuscany fit much better and in a more interesting way. I'd like others to comment on this. The discussion can be found here.Oerwinde 08:33, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Read the "Sicilian Occupation" part under Tuscany. That does not allow it to exist "as is" but still allows it into canon. If I wanted to, I could edit the Sicily article right now to say anything that would keep Tuscany in canon since it is now officially mine, but alas, I will not do that, but will just add this Sicilian Occupation to Sicily as well. Arstarpool 17:27, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I hope your happy now. I made very few changes to Sicily. I made Tuscany conincide perfectly since there are "other revolts" in Sicily, I just made it one of those, and the first one to gain independence in 2004. Arstarpool 18:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Tuscany isn't "yours" you are merely the caretaker of it. That does not entitle you to rewrite canon so another article you created can fit. --GOPZACK 17:59, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Tuscany is his, Sicily is not. I still disagree with the Alpine confederation acting as an agressor. Yes it was for the liberation of a state, but they still claim to be neutral, I can't see them committing troops to an offensive action and breaking the truce, hence why I think it should either be defunct as a state until after the 2nd sicily war, or with like half of the Tuscan territory being outside Sicilian control, have the government moved to the north until the south is liberated after the 2nd sicily war.Oerwinde 18:01, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

What should happen to Tuscany? Alter it to be divided until after the 2nd Sicily war Alter it to be a defunct state until its re-emergence after the 2nd Sicily war Keep the changes to Sicily that have the Alpine Confederation invade and liberate it and New Rome in 2004 Other (state below)

The events portrayed are depicted in all three nations! It does briefly mention of Alpine acting as an agressor in Alpine, it fully mentions it in Sicily and it lists it as well in Tuscany. Arstarpool 18:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yes but you added it all today. The Alpine Confederation article states that the central government honors their devotion to neutrality, and the sicily article stated that they had established defensive lines to halt the Sicilian advance, but never counterattacked, instead sent a ceasefire, leading to the demarcation line through Tuscany. The AC breaking the ceasefire to attack sicily goes against the character the nation has established. Venice isn't strong enough to organize an assault alone. And the entire ADC is wary of entering all out war with Sicily, so I doubt the tuscans would be able to take them alone. Oerwinde 18:30, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

It looks like my choice is winning, and I swear by oath I did not vote twice :D Arstarpool

The Forgotten Texas Unification
As I recall West and East Texas were supposed to unify back in June. I've gone ahead and created the "" since no matter what happens we are going to need this page to document the new nation. Arstarpool 06:50, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * You best speak with the authors of the two Texases before you go any further. --GOPZACK 06:55, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * ::That would be me, Arstarpool. Hands off. This kind of thing takes time in real life, anyway. And I'm not on your timetable. BrianD 23:46, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Astoria Flag Competition
So the Republic of Astoria needs a flag. I usually love doing flags but I'm totally at a loss at what to do here. So I'm opening it up for submissions. It should have some blue and probably something representing the military, but those aren't required.Oerwinde 09:09, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Could it slightly resemble the North Korean Flag? Arstarpool 00:02, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why notOerwinde 20:05, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'll see if I can whip something up tomorrow. JackofSpades 04:43, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

How do you like the flag I put up? Arstarpool 20:11, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well Arstar's flag is better than my own. My own flags are much simpler. It is almost embarressing in comparison. Here are three flags for Astoria. I do hope they fit your needs. Flag 1 Flag 2Flag 3 The large star represents the High Commander in all three, while the smaller star represents the people. In the third flag the second largest star is the General Council JackofSpades 20:22, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Funny as this sounds, I think the colors on yours fit better together, Jack. Flag #3 is the better of the three, fyi.

Lordganon 02:58, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't even think of using green for some reason. I had been working on one trying to figure something out and came up with this. Still not sure what I'll use but figured I'd get some input. The large star represents the High Commander, like Jackofspades said, the three smaller ones within the cross represents the three branches of the armed forces, and the two in the blue represent the people and the state. I don't know why I used a cross, other than I like nordic cross designs.Oerwinde 08:38, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm..... Interesting, but I can't see why they'd use the nordic cross in the design.

Lordganon 10:13, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Which is why I'm still discussing it rather than just making it the flag :POerwinde 18:50, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps they could view it not so much as a Nordic Cross, but as showing how all paths converge on the High Commander. JackofSpades 04:12, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

The principle is sound, but I still doubt that they would use it like this. Besides, too religious. Maybe something along the same lines, but with the corners?

Lordganon 05:21, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

I took out the cross and changed it to a horizontal bar. How's this?Oerwinde 18:14, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Snappy. Very Snappy. =)

Lordganon 10:43, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Niagara Falls Flag Competition
Could somebody make a flag for, please? If you can, try to use any shade of blue and something representing it being a pair of "twin cities". Arstarpool 03:11, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How's this. Red and White are Canada's colors, Red, White, and Blue are the US colors. Star represents the US side, Maple leaf the Canadian side, and the blue bar represents the falls. In two orientations depending on preference.Oerwinde 03:53, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
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Culture / Society
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Miscellaneous discussion
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After Armageddon Wiki
Hi. Sorry to headhunt and spam, but the After Armageddon Wiki is awfully similar to Doomsday (although there are some major differences, see the Wiki Editing Conventions page on the AA wiki) and I thought maybe some of you would like to contribute.

The wiki is here: http://afterarmageddon.wikia.com/wiki/After_Armageddon_WikiMichael Douglas 21:35, July 29, 2010 (UTC) =CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? I, for one, have none. Yankovic270 03:48, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

If you could remove the claims to Californian part of the nation, I will have no problems, but as of now the land you claimed in California is encroaching on my proposal Commonwealth of California. Arstarpool 05:41, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool this article came well before yours. The creator of Sierra Nevada has first dibs on the boarder. --GOPZACK 15:56, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

He's right if you want this to work you must remove the counties of Pulmas, Sierra, Nevada county, Placer, El Dorado, and Alpine from the borders of the California Commonwealth Riley.Konner 14:49, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

In regards to the raised question over the western border of the SNU, only those portions of El Dorado, Placer, Alpine, and Mono Counties, CA east of the Sierra Nevada Mountains are actually part of the nation. The SNU has no claim or reason to claim any part of these counties west of the mountains, especially since the mountains act as a barricade to the chaos of CA. In that the Sierras are an extremely rugged and formidable natural barrier even in this day and given the overall existence of affairs post-Doomsday (no phones, electricity, etc.), communities east of the mountains might as well be on the moon in relation to those west. With the loss of the CA state government and the closer ties to Nevada (especially the Lake Tahoe region), it would be logical they would accept the offer to work with and join Nevada in the establishment of the SNU. Given the enormous logistical problems such a nation as the COC would have to overcome: the nuclear strikes and heavy fallout of Doomsday; the failure of infrastructure; refugees; and violence (such as illustrated in the nearby MSP) to name a few, any existing government would be more focused on basic survival and not be able to reasonably extend its authority east of the mountains. I should also note in passing, my article does in fact predate the COC. As to graduating my article, as much as I would like to do so, I feel it would not be fair to do this until the disagreement is resolved over the eastern borders with Louisianan. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 17:40, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I still question how a fully developed nation-state could take shape in one of the USA's most inhospitable areas. The New Zealand flyover in the 1990s found absolutely nothing - why is it so difficult for us to respect what's already been written? Benkarnell 21:17, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ben, let me begin by saying when I originally wrote this article it was not my intent in any way shape or form to disrespect anything previously written. In fact, I have always tried to go out of my way to be respectful to others here. I had in fact read the section you reference and did take note of it. It surprised me to some extent given my personal knowledge of the region, having visited it a number of times and developed a feeling for it. When I first started thinking about this idea back in January I decided to do my customary lengthy analysis to see if my idea had any merit. I focused on two thoughts, was there any evidence to support the supposition the region could have become a wasteland/vast desert and that aside, could NV logically survive and exist as a nation. The more I read and researched, I could find nothing to logically support the idea it was a wasteland. I also found substantial evidence supporting the premise of the state surviving and the viability of becoming a survivor nation. I took note for example there was only one primary and one secondary target site in the state. This in turn reflected a northern and central area (with one exception) being free of the same damage we have seen elsewhere. Thus intact roads, rails, etc. The bulk of the fallout would more likely be to the south, with that reaching the north having to make it over the Sierras and the rest coming from Oregon, Washington, or Idaho, which did not strike me as being as severe as that of say, southern CA. Further, Carson City, the state capital, would more than likely have survived since it was not on the strike list (in fact nearby Reno was a third place target). Given this, I felt it was very realistic the governor survived along with the bulk of the state government and as such, there would be an existing framework on which to build on where as most states did not have. I also noted the existence of many farms and ranches throughout the region to help with food production; the existence of water supplies; and even energy deposits. Lastly, given the altered weather patterns, this would have assured rainfall far and above that of the pre-DD period as seen elsewhere and would assured the blooming of plant life and aid the growing of agriculture.

I realize given what the general perception of NV tends to be by most folks, i.e. desert, I can understand the immediate thought would be to simply write it off as being some inhospitable region. But as I have said, I found to much evidence in my research which contradicted this assumption and gave every indication it had more than a better fighting chance at survival. In fact, I would have given NV far better odds than some other nations which have arisen in areas which just seemed...downright odd to me on the survivability scale. The insight I have developed through my own work and everything I have read thus far was when this story first originated, it was a blank slate so to speak and was filled in sporadically at first. With time, many of the grey areas have little by little been filled in and some earlier assumptions have been changed, sometimes in small ways and some big. Last fall for example, I put forward a lengthy examination as to why Israel should be removed from the defunct list. As a result, this was changed and I went on to write the article. It had been my hope from the beginning my article and what I stated would speak for itself as to why the SNU logically could exist without having to go into lengthy dialogues that I seem to have to continually do. Perhaps if I had set aside my zeal in writing this and extensively laid out all these thoughts earlier, these issues could have been avoided. I have observed with some considerable perplexity, no major issues were raised with me regarding my article as to it being unfeasible or its borders until the current disagreement arose.

Lastly, I should point out I did in fact read all the articles dealing with the surrounding areas before I wrote my piece. For example, I did note and include that LV was destroyed, which appeared in the UT article. The reason the problem arose over the border issue was because next to nothing was in fact ever written in any existing articles concerning NV or part of it joining another state/nation. Additionally, the sentence in the Benjamin Franklin article seems confusing. If you read it, it states a pilot flew inland from Tillamook, OR and "reports reaching a vast desert as he approached the old Idaho/Nevada border. Radiation levels were minimal, but the area seemed devoid of plant and animal life." Where did this desert exist, NV or ID? What would have concievability existed in this region to have received such catastropic damage to transform the entire region into a deadzone, especially we have since ascertained there were few major hits in this region. Given the altered weather patterns, where is the presence of the heavy rains and why is the desert not blooming due to them? Even if no one was alive for some reason, water would already begun filling up the ancient endorheic lake flooding the northwestern part of the state. It has alreday been stated people are farming in southern ID and the region was cultivated.

As I have said, I am open to discussion. If my conclusions are so skewed, please show me where my logic is faulty and I would gladly discuss making revisions. Thanks for your time.--Fxgentleman 02:07, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not questioning your research or your conclusions. But I really do not think that North America, particularly the western third of the continent, has room for another large state. There are already four big ones, five if you count the pUSA and pCanada as separate, which they are. Another big one simply pushes the region well beyond the letter and spirit of our established material.
 * Could it be shrunk down? Rather than all of Nevada, could it encompass just the western mountainous area? That would be all the state government would be interested in protecting anyway, during the 80s and 90s and most of the 00s. The desert would be moister by now, but for the first decade it would definitely still be a desert, and those who could would leave for places that could support them. Nowadays, maybe the former desert is starting to be re-peopled by subsistence farmers, and the Nevada republic is doing what it can to bring/keep them under its jurisdiction. That would incidentally solve the Utah border issue.
 * The bottom line, though, is that we no longer have a picture of a society wiped out. It's more of a society where everybody is OK, but they inexplicably split up into little micro-republics. SouthWriter has posed the question before: if so many people and places survived so well, why did they stop caring about the national government? The old answer was that everything was just too devastated for any thought of national institutions. Now, the answer seems to be that everyone spontaneously created local republics and didn't bother communicating with anyone outside their new borders.
 * So I think S.N. would be a perfect addition if we still had a blank slate - to me it's an excellently written and researched page, and it makes more sense than a lot of what we've got - but it's not a blank slate anymore. Another large survivor, large enough to rub against other large survivors, raises new questions of "why didn't they just stick together as the USA". There is literally no way to explain the overall picture in the context of our Doomsday scenario. Benkarnell 16:16, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that interstate communications and transportation was absolutely devestated. And the USA is a big, huge country. I think that even if the various States had tried to hold the USA together, a combination of the distances involved, the devastated communications (Vermont is across the other side of the country form Alaska), the differing needs of each State, as well as their differing infastructures and econimies would have made it impossible for the USA to be held together. Most of the states declared independence around 1984/85, right. I bet that even one or two years after doomsday, it would be impossible to travel from, lets say Odessa to Broken Bow without being killed to death.HAD 20:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that interstate communications and transportation was absolutely devestated. And the USA is a big, huge country. I think that even if the various States had tried to hold the USA together, a combination of the distances involved, the devastated communications (Vermont is across the other side of the country form Alaska), the differing needs of each State, as well as their differing infastructures and econimies would have made it impossible for the USA to be held together. Most of the states declared independence around 1984/85, right. I bet that even one or two years after doomsday, it would be impossible to travel from, lets say Odessa to Broken Bow without being killed to death.HAD 20:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ben, my apologies for not responding sooner. Rather than take up space here, I have opened a new section in the SNU discussion page about rewriting my article. You can find my response to your thoughts there. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 02:59, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

No offense, but MULTIPLE canon articles have proven what a wasteland much of the West is. And while I agree the deserts would be moister, the SNU would starve to death before any crops could be planted. Arstarpool 17:28, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

My understanding as to the connotation of the word wasteland has been one which implied an area devoid of life or one which is completely devastated. In the context of this ATL, it has been my impression the use of this word would be used to describe an area devastated directly by a nuclear strike(s) or heavy fallout (i.e. DC, NYC, LA); one affected by an extreme natural catastrophe; or a combination of the two (i.e. Holland Wasteland). When I first read this description alluding to NV (and I am only aware of two articles, although I might have missed one) it puzzled me in that I could not figure what could have caused this wasteland to come about. This was something I actively investigated when looking into the feasibility of NV surviving to become a possible nation. Despite my research, I never found any information whatsoever to substantiate the region becoming a wasteland along the lines of the three scenarios I mentioned. To refer to this area as such is a misnomer and contrary to available evidence. A more logical description would have been to say the pilot flew over and saw abandoned towns and limited people, which would make sense if folks moved away from the NV-ID border and closer to larger centers for protection. While I am all in favor in following canon, I have to say in all honesty this business about the wasteland makes no sense at all since all the evidence points to it being illogical.

While it is indeed true NV is a semi-arid climate with a reduced rainfall and contains regions which are inhospitable to most life, the state's geography includes deserts, mountains, plains, valleys, rivers, and such. Some areas, such as the north, are milder than say the south where Las Vegas Valley is located. As to the issue of food, it is a misconception people as a whole would starve. There obviously would have to be rationing as to such a time when the local food base had been reconfigured and expanded to serve the needs of the population. Keep in mind the following facts: As of 2002, there were 2989 farms in NV. At lest 560 grew wheat, corn, barley, potatoes, onions, fruits and vegetables. There is also extensive raising of livestock in the state, more than half being cattle and sheep. In fact Elko County is the second highest producing counties for cattle nationwide. There is also a dairy industry. Granted this is not as widespread as say other states and some of my figures are representative of the last ten years, I think it gives a reasonable portrait of the state which I am sure is not to far off from 1983. Lastly, since at least 60% of the state died in 1983, including the population center of Las Vegas, there would be about 300,000 folks left, with the bulk around Reno-Carson and the rest scattered. Given this reduced population, I could see them surviving. At to the issue of rainfall, examine what is laid out in the UT article. As Salt Lake is not to far away it is reasonable to assume if it is filling up from rains, then the same rains must be falling in NV and affecting the environment there as well.--Fxgentleman 03:30, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

This article has been kicking around for half a year. I'm assuming it's not going anywhere. Arstarpool 17:02, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the article is still active and my hope is to see it through given the work I have invested. I have been in discussion with Ben and am okay in doing some rewrites to it in order to address the concerns he expressed and those Louis had over the SNU eastern borders. In fact, Louis and I have begun a dialogue on having a Spokane Army force invade the SNU and a battle take place between them and SNU/UT. I am just waiting to get feedback from Ben and or Louis regarding some problems I am encountering in doing the rewrite and what their thoughts might be on how to address it.--Fxgentleman 17:54, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Really! It's dragging down the entire proposal page! Just let it go! If it was plausible it would have been graduated half a year ago. Arstarpool

Its not dragging anything down, Fxgentleman has been working hard on this for a long time. --GOPZACK 02:28, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well California is canon now. So you are going to have to drop those claims of yours. I went through the painstaking process of canonization for the article, so I have the upper hand in the claimed land, even if yours came first. Arstarpool 19:39, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Alex, Mitro is still out there, and your "constable" status can easily be revoked by him or some of the other administrative types. "California" was moved when it was seen to be in conflict with the ongoing SNU project. Leave Fx and Zack alone. SouthWriter 21:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did some checking. The graduation of Arstarpool's article was done BY Arstarpool one month after no further discussion at the end of May. I thought he had moved the boundaries, but he had not. Instead, he ignored all objections and continued with his article as if SNU did not exist. And then, when no one was looking he graduated it himself (once being give authority as a "constable"). The "painstaking" process of his was to wait it out, and then just take the "prop" template off after "no objections" in four weeks. The original objections are still in place. SouthWriter 03:09, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

South I have learned the hard way (through my experiences with my Republic of Lincoln) that nations that have graduated into canon need not bend the knee to proposals. Regardless of the fact that Sierra Nevada was on the talkpage for longer, the California has been graduated first and as far as I and a few other users (including possibly Mitro) are concerned, that secures its territorial claims.

Yankovic270 22:38, July 20, 2010 (UTC)\


 * Yank, you are the only other contributor to the "Californian Republic" article, so you have a conflict of interest here. Of your articles within the bounds of North America, every one of them have a state claiming land across boundaries:
 * The Virginian Republic fought over eastern Kentucky, and tried to take the whole east coast with a 101st Airborne,
 * The Republic of Lincoln holds stubbornly to its claim of the whole state of Nebraska,
 * Assiniboia assumes the "privilege" of grabbing half of North Dakota

And now, when what has to be the best-researched article of the whole time line seeks to maintain its right to QSS, a piece of fanciful fiction is to take precedent. No, Yank, "self-canonization" does not secure the "territorial claims." What do the other "officers" have to say here? --SouthWriter 03:09, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you just center it around the center of the state? No harm will come after that. Arstarpool 22:50, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool: I have done my best to be respectful and civil towards you during our conversations, nevertheless I have grown weary with your behavior towards me especially regarding my SNU article. Given I don't know what the established procedure might be regarding such a matter, since I had not personally witnessed it before, I would err on the side of courteousness and say given I first posted my article (and its borders) in February 2010, where as you did not first post your article until the end of April 2010, mine should stand irregardless if you moved yours through to canon. The fact that you began writing your article after mine, and as such were aware of the borders I had designated and chose to ignore them, indicates as to your mindset on the subject. I would have liked to have moved my article towards canon over two months ago and feel it was more than ready to do so. However, out of respect towards the concerns Louis and Ben raised, I wanted to work with them and resolve their concerns before moving forward and did not anticipate it would take as long as it has. I did not expect in the meantime a fellow writer would do what you have been trying to do to me. This aside for a moment, I pointed out some time ago your insistence that the CR could maintain control over those areas east of the Sierra Nevada Mountains made little sense given post DD conditions and the overall rugged and inhospitable nature of the mountains. Taking these factors into consideration, the CR might as well be on the far side of the moon in comparison to these areas. The eastern region would in fact be closer geographically and have more in common with the Reno-Carson. As such, the issue of the SNU borders should not inhibit you from expanding your article in the future, which I assume you plan to do, beyond what you have written at this time. Since I have invested a serious amount of research and writing into my article, I plan to see it through. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 00:00, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool may not know how things work, but I do. When a canon nation and a proposal fight over borders, the graduated nation always wins. The order in which the nations are posted on this page does not matter. It is the order in whic the nations are graduated that matters. I respectfully ask you to face facts. You have to write the Californian portions of Sierra Nevada out of the article. I have contributed to California as well, and it was me who found that relatively impact-free zone in the state. The Californian Republic, in being graduated first, has won the right to its territory.

Yankovic270 02:54, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

So, if I understand correctly, civility pretty much goes out the window? Given I chose not to ramrod my article through and tried to address the concerns of older contributors I am basically screwed? It doesn't make any sense to me that since I chose the high road in this circumstance I am basically screwed. I think it is only fair to request a ruling from the TSPTF Brass regarding this since it doesn't sound right.--Fxgentleman 03:12, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a member of the Brass pre say but as I understand it Nevada was created first, then the Californian Republic was proposed sometime later on after. From the sounds of it the grounds on which the Californian Republic was graduated was suspect at best. Now then, normally Yank is right the canonized article does have first dibs on the boarder so long as it is within the realm of plausibility. However this is a special circumstance to say the very least.

As South noted above the boarder issue(s) were never rectified! Nevada should have first dibs technically because it came first as a proposal first. The fact that the Californian Republic has been graduated means nothing because the Californian Republic was graduated far to quickly without the objects to it being addressed.

What must be done is this, the Californian Republic must be marked as a proposal until this situation is resolved at the very least. Then someone has to mediate a solution. I'll gladly volunteer for that job if no one objects. Once the boarders are fixed I don't see why both of these articles can't be a part of this TL. Fxgentleman has worked his ass off on this project & has been frankly treated like a Ocelot type spammer. His article has been unfairly shafted and he deserves do process. GOPZACK 03:35, July 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Zack, for stepping up to the plate. You are not "Brass," but you do have authority as a "Lieutenant" which are, in part:
 * "carrying out the consensus of the community on keeping or deleting articles, keeping an eye on new and changed articles to swiftly delete obvious vandalism, and meeting user requests for help that require administrative access."
 * You are the man to not only mediate, but to decide such issues after due process. I have replaced the "proposal" template on the "Californian Republic" (why not "California Republic"? Could it be a reflection of that east coast "superpower"? hmmm). And let me be the first one to nominate SNU for graduation! --SouthWriter 04:10, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for my behavior if it was offensive. I admit that I am biased in favour of California. It is just frustrating that the allready much larger Sierra Nevada gets claims while the smaller California can do nothing about it. No matter what one of the nations gets shafted. So why does Sierra Nevada need its portion of California when the already have about 80% of the state of Nevada? And I thought that the Middle East was Fx's area of expertise, not North America. I feel that we are bending the rules just for Fx's sake. I know we will not see eye to eye on this, but can we please at least try to get along.

Yankovic270 03:53, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Since the Sierra Nevada Union, a nation in the middle of the blasted desert that somehow managed to feed its population for years, and then expanded into California, is so much better than my nation, I must surrender most/almost all of the lands that belong to California. Come on, not once did anyone comment on the Californian talk page that there was something wrong. Either way, I gave the community a week to declare any objections after I asked, and not one person had a complaint!

And now your going to mark mine as a proposal and "be the first to nominate the SNU"? So you are basically going to swap a canon article with a proposal?

I agree with Yank, we are bending everything for Fx, and just because someone worked their "ass" off does not mean an article should be brought into canon. Arstarpool 04:22, July 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I overstepped my authority -- I have none -- when I put the "proposal" template back on your article. However, I was doing it on the word of Zack - a Lieutenant who outranks your "constable" status. I was saving him the trouble. I will let him place the template there as he said it should be. I nominated SNU for graduation because he has done everything he could to rectify objections along the way - while at the same time working hard on his middle east projects. He has not presumed to "graduate" his own article in the midst of a lull in the action.


 * The extensive research that FxGentleman has done does indeed mean that his article is worthy of canonizaiton - through proper channels -- the consensus of the editors. The silence of the group does not constitute a consensus, and a constable does not have the authority to graduate articles on his own. I quote:


 * "Constables are editors who have been granted rollback power to allow for a faster, automated reversion of vandalism. They are the foot soldiers in the ongoing war against vandals and trolls."


 * I therefore confess that you have the right to rollback my insertion of the template. I did indeed overstep my authority there. But I concur with the Lieutenant that it needs to be done. A disagreement as to the status of your article, though, is not an act of vandalism, though, and your article has not been changed by anyone but you and Yank, the other constable.


 * I only "nominated" Fxgentleman's article for graduation, I did not graduate it. And there is no "swapping" going on. Both articles can co-exist, if compromises are made. In reality, boundaries are made in two ways - naturally and by treaty. The mountains west of Reno make an excellent natural boundary, and allow the communities on either side of Lake Tahoe to operate under one government. This sliver of land in no way constitues "most/almost all" of California's land claims. The gentleman's proposal has been well presented, and is due its day in court. If you can show how a ragtag bunch of county officers can cross over the Sierra Nevada mountains and maintain order in a resort area innudated by refugees from desert towns in every direction - and do it better than an established state government fortunate enough NOT to be destroyed by bombs to their southwest (and thus DOWNWIND) - then by all means, that sliver of land should be yours. But the decision is not yours to make. SouthWriter 05:09, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

No problem South & I appreciate your marking California as a proposal once more.

Yank, it doesn't matter if he is the "expert" on the Middle East he can still propose an article thats not in the Middle East. After Doomsday it is perfectly logical that the neighboring counties in California would work in tandem with Nevada to survive.

Arstar, odds are California will return to canon shortly this isn't a straight swap rather a correction of some past injustices. Aso you say "just because someone worked their "ass" off does not mean an article should be brought into canon". While that is true that articles are not graduated on how hard someone worked alone, Fxgentleman has put a lot of sound research into this article & has addressed all legitimate criticisms.

To both you, there is no favoritism here. I to the best of my knowledge have never contributed to any of the two articles in question. I have also never worked with Fxgentleman on anything before where as I have worked with the two of you on numerous occasions. Under your logic I should technically be favoring the two of you in this argument. I do not have a dog in this fight, I'm looking at the facts and calling them as I see them. GOPZACK 04:34, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

It good to know that at least someone is objective in this discussion, unlike SouthWriter and myself. But seriously, there is a rule that basically states that a canon nation need not give concessions to a proposal. I still say it the order in whic the proposals are added to the page matters not.

Yankovic270 04:49, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I, and maybe Yank, should be talking to Fx face to face (or whatever the internet equivalent of face to face is). This is my nation. I am the one that fought it out of becoming obsolete once already.

And why would California band with NEVADA? The desert state? The Nevadans would go running to California, not the other way around!

Just explain this ONE thing to me

How would Nevada, the "most arid state in the Union" be able to feed all those people, even 300,000! I do understand that there are a handful  of potato and onion farms out there, much of those are in the eastern part of the state, and even then the food that comes out of there isn't going to be the healthiest things for them to eat. California on the other hand is responsible for around 10 percent of the entire nations entire agricultural output!

Just face it...a nation in the middle of the desert...not happening. Arstarpool 04:54, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have never asked for the rules to be "bent" for me. Since I became a contributor I have done my best to be cordial and respectful to other writers and work within the guidelines. I have purposefully avoided changing other writers articles even if I thought they walked on the far side of logic. I have done my best to research and write all my articles so they made sense and were grounded in reality. I never intended to claim any specific area and sort of fell into becoming the Middle East caretaker of sorts. But having become so, I have tried to do the best job I could within the confines of my schedule. I am knowledgeable but not an expert on the region and have had to do a lot of research to create what I have done thus far.

However, I never thought it precluded me from contributing anywhere else. I chose to create Delmarva and the SNU only because I was familiar with both regions and wanted to see if they could survive. I often get the feeling that not every one reads what I write and as such miss the logic which drives my decisions. I set the boundaries of the SNU as to what I thought made sense at the time. However, because of discussions with Louis and Ben (if anyone has read our dialogues) I realize I might have inadvertently made my borders in NV to large which we are in the process of addressing. Once resolved I believe the article can move forward to become canon. The story though with CA if far different. Given the SN mountains are a formidable and rugged boundary even in this day and age, it made and still makes sense given post-war conditions those areas east of the mountains would align themselves with a functioning government in NV which was closer both in relations and geography. I believe the CR would have a near to impossible time trying to extend control on the other side of the mountains when they would be dealing with the destruction of nearby areas, fallout, refugees, EMP damage, violence, etc. So its not like I "beat up" on the CR or tried some land grab. As I stated in my earlier remarks I thought civility was the rule and I was not aware of any special rule regarding this area I currently find myself in, which I have to frankly say shocked me. I have never wanted any trouble with anyone and came here to write and contribute. I am always willing to get along, but I grow weary of the hectoring which has been directed at me several times by one of two individuals. I would like to thank South and Gopzack for your remarks, it was appreciated. As for your suggestion, I would be willing to accept it Gopzack. Since I have put in requests to the Brass for their input, I would like to get their thoughts first.

One last thing. Having just read the most recent comments, I highly suggest anyone who has any questions regarding NV's agricultural base, please refer to my past comments on this area as well as extensively research the subject which I did. The data is out there if you want to read up on it. Everything I have written is based on a logical extrapolation of the data I found. Thanks and good night for now. --Fxgentleman 05:19, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here are my arguments:

California would have more food to "share", since agriculture is one of their main outputs. And there is a thing that would connect them to those "impossible barrier of mountains" called roads.

The nearest destroyed city, Sacramento, is nearly 150 miles away from Placerville, so it is logical that the area would have survived.

Please, for the sake of two canon articles, just cut out the lands the canon ones have. This article has started so many arguments that it is in fact the most disputed nation ever to exist in the TL, acording to the archives. Also,so many people have stated that another "big" state in the area would not be plausible. When my article came to the table, the only thing close to touching on the border conflict is a remark made on the original idea for the nation, which resembled your idea.

To South, thank you for your honesty on my rights as a constable. As of now I have not abused of them, and have called them out in the proper line of duty quite often. I have a tendency to "disagree" with Zack for several reasons, but I'll get into that another time. Arstarpool 06:33, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

All I really have to add is this: In regards to the argument that the canon article trumps the proposal article even if the proposal was written first - the issue here is that the California article shouldn't have been graduated in the first place because it violated QSS. The Sierra Nevada article had the claimed land, the California article that was written later should have conformed to that. Because it didn't, and due to this issue others objected to its graduation, it should not have been graduated.Oerwinde 07:18, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here are the main problems that would require massive changes:

1. Carson City and Reno survived. That is way too optimistic, seeing that Carson City is the capital of Nevada.

2. The nation formed very shortly after Doomsday. If the capital survived, why would a nation need to be formed if the state government was functional?

3. How did California get thrown into the bunch? Wouldn't the SNU be focusing on keeping Nevada under control?

4. The biggest problem is that you still haven't filled out the border with Utah either.

5. It pretty much controls all of the state except for two random triangles at the north, and the lands controlled by the obsolete page of. To say, they lost little to nothing in terms of land to the chaos that so every other state did.

I am tired of everyone saying "it is the best researched article on the wiki" when in fact he let the capital and a major city go undamaged, and continued to control around 90 percent of the state. Arstarpool 08:31, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool: For the foreseeable future I am suspending any further dialogue with you regarding my SNU article here, the article discussion page, or my talk page because of your increasingly hostile attitude and behavior. I have no desire in arguing any further and would prefer to spend my time in a more constructive manner, mainly writing. Given I have turned this matter over to the TSPTF Brass I will await their thoughts and have indicated I am willing to allow Gopzack to be a mediator if we reach that point.--Fxgentleman 12:08, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I admit that my cartography skills definitely need work. That is hy I kept the counties under Californian control intact. If the disputed area is the only thing keeping California and Sierra Nevada from becoming full parts of canon, then I respectully ask that you tell me how many people live there and how large the area is. I don't like having to do this, but if it resolves this ugly feud I have no choice.

Yankovic270 16:57, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

This is the only compromise I will make:

South-East El Dorado County

Eastern Alpine County 

Mono County.

Please leave me with the rest of Placer, Alpine and the other lands. Arstarpool 19:58, July 21, 2010 (UTC) Check out the map I put on Fxgentlemens talk page and tell me if If it's good enough. Arstarpool 20:07, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, the fact that the article for "California" was written and graduated by the same person doesn't fly well with me. SNU has been under construction and active work with myself and others for a much longer period, and thus predates any article about California. You're going to have to work out some sort of compromise, where the lands that you're wanting so badly, Arstar, are given back to California under a peace treaty/trade agreement of some kind. That would be the best, most cooperative solution. Louisiannan 01:42, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I am in the process of doing that. If you see the list above, these are the lands that will, err, respectfully be Sierra Nevada's. I asked for a small portion around Lake Tahoe and western Alpine County for the sake of me not having to change massive amounts of canon. Arstarpool 02:10, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Its not as dramatic as that Arstar, "massive amounts of canon" will not be changed in order to make these two articles work. Fx has already accepted my offer of mediation and I would like to know if Arstar is willing to do the same. Then I need both of you to list out what you would like to see happen on my talk page, as to create a neutral ground if you will for the issues to be decided. Then from there I will work with the two of you to find a solution. Yank, I know you helped Arstar with the California article so by all means you can help "argue" his case. South Writer has been supportive of Fx & he is welcome to assist him if he wishes. I'll stand in the middle between you guys. I would just request ahead of time that this debate remain civil and doesn't breakdown into name calling or frivolous insults that get us no where and frankly have brought us to where we are today.--GOPZACK 02:30, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I will solve this with Fx alone. I have sent him a map that gives him exactly 50% of the territories he requested. I given him no land of Placer, part of Alpine, all of Mono, and part/most of Alpine. He also needs to finish the second border argument with Utah. Arstarpool 02:53, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I find that hard to believe, Fx said he was not speaking with you one on one after your "increasingly hostile attitude and behavior". This dispute has moved past that stage and now is in arbitration and mediation. GOPZACK 03:48, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, there is little to be mediated. All I need is a couple of words from Fx regarding my compromise. That will end that. If he can just and talk for 5 minutes, then this dispute will be over and California will return to canon, and he can do whatever he wants with Sierra Nevada. Arstarpool 04:43, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

First of all I want to apologize for taking so long to rule on this I've been rather busy these past few days. Firstly this ruling effects the boarders between the SNU and California and no where else.

Please refer to the two maps I am uploading here as a guide for the decision. The lake Tahoe region shall hereby be ceded to the SNU. All areas to the east of the white line on the general map are hereby SNU territory where as the territory to the west of the said white line are now California's. The map generally follows where the terrain begins to deteriorate and therefore it mist logical that the territory on the eastern side would fall under the SNU's sphere of influence.

Finally Arstarpool's article shall remove references to conflict with the SNU over territory because they were only placed there after this dispute really began to flare up. If there are no other objections and these conditions have been me California may return to Canon.

The SNU still has sone lingering boarder disputes with Utah so until that issue is resolved the SNU article cannot be graduated yet. I am more then willing to broker a deal there as were if necessary. Thank you for your patience in this matter. IIf you need any clarification on anything don't hesitate to let me know but please keep it civil! Regards GOPZACK 21:47, July 29, 2010 (UTC)



Gopzack: Thank you for your ruling on this subject and your time. I was reviewing your maps & was a bit unsure of what your were saying. Does this mean the SNU retains the eastern portions of El Dorado and Placer Counties and the tiny portion of Nevada, with Mono and eastern Alpine going to the CR? If you could clarify I would appreciate it. In regards to the eastern borders I am already working it out with Louis. If you go to the bottom of the snu discussion page for the SNU you will see what I posted. Thank for the offer. I will not request canon until Louis and Ben are okay with it since they raised the original concerns.--Fxgentleman 23:31, July 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * No Problem FX, I appreciate your civility and pertinence throughout this matter. Anything east of the white line is SNU territory so that includes parts of Nevada, Sierra, Placer, El Dorado, Apline, Mono, Lassen counties. I've uploaded another map that should clarify things for you. I just want to note that the boarder on this second map is approximate. GOPZACK 23:56, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have been asked by several people to comment on this dispute. First, I just want to say that I fully support Zack in his mediation of this dispute. He has a better understanding of what has been going on and I will defer to him. That being said, I would like to give my opinion on a few issues that I noticed while reading the above comments:


 * Last time I checked, anyone can put a proposal template on a canon article if they feel it really should not be a part of canon. I am pretty sure the say that.
 * Everyone on 1983: Doomsday is equal, regardless of what position they hold in the TSPTF. I might be part of the Brass but that does not mean I have any significant authority on this TL over anyone else. The Editorial Guidelines and QSS & QAA govern, not the TSPTF.
 * I still stand by my position that a proposal must conform to a canon article, not the other way around. That being said strict compliance with that rule can lead to problems, especially with the current situation. If extraordinary circumstances warrant it, then there may be instances where it can be ignored. Which brings me to my next point…
 * With the large amount of proposals and the fact that anyone can graduate an article, the fact of the matter is a lot of articles get graduated by silence. In a perfect world this would never happen, but this is hardly a perfect world. Nevertheless, it should not be assumed that silence means that the article is perfect. In fact such an article might have a weak claim to being canon and thus should be reviewed if there are problems. This is especially true if the article is graduated over good faith objections.
 * Finally, cut out the rudeness. This wiki used to be one of the few places on the net where one could discuss alternate history without having to deal with troll-like behavior. Now I am not so sure, but since I am back I am going to be a lot more serious about people’s behavior.

Anyway that is my two cents. Mitro 23:56, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

When I joined this site, I did so because I wanted to have fun and challenge myself in writing AltHist, a genre I have loved for over 20 years. I am for the most part an easy going person and was raised (perhaps it is my age talking here), to treat others with respect and decency which I try to do. The last two months or so I have been astonished to find myself on the receiving end of behavior which was ugly and nasty by two specific writers. This has included having my ethics challenged, my article and logic mocked, and being called names. This is not what I expected as a writer. I fully realize we are not always going to agree with each other, but this had gotten ridiculous. I am downright dismayed my article resulted in so much discourse over the last two weeks especially; which at my last count was spread across seven discussion pages including here. If the roles had been reversed, I would have adjusted my article accordingly to respect what the other writer was working on. However, that is just me. Irregardless of the disagreements I have had with Louis & Ben, they were willing to talk with and convince me why I needed to make changes, which I appreciated and would have expected from other writers. As a result, I am confident we will resolve our disagreement and until we do so I will not ask my article to be moved towards canon. I would like to thank the writers who supported me and tried to help during the recent troubles.--Fxgentleman 00:40, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

The Sultanate of Turkey is the successor state of the now defunct Republic of Turkey. I've started to write the article. Commentary and ideas are welcome. Most of the pre-Doomsday history is straight off Wikipedia. And I hope this doesn't conflict with any already accepted nations in this althist. I've accounted for the existence of Kurdistan, the Greek control of Rhodes and the (formerly) Turkish Straits, and the possiblity of an enlarged Armenia in eastern Turkey, though I'm not sure there's an accepted article about Armenia.

Caeruleus 22:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, its pretty awesome. Any objections? Arstarpool 17:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Heh. That Caucasian war bit is impossible, realistically, and the state is still too large.

Lordganon 03:03 June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if it included only southern Turkey, and shared little/no borders with Greece, then it would be acceptable. The Causcausian War crap should be taken out. Sorry, but I didn't read through the whole article, heh. Arstarpool 16:31, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

You have to erase the Georgian and Armenian things. There is a state on Georgia since much before you wrote this article. Fedelede 16:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Bye bye Turkish Empire I guess. Caucasian War portion removed. Caeruleus 18:29, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Still way too big as well as expanding too fast, and he's right about the strikes - dont know why I didn't notice before. You have to remember, the list is only a guideline, not anything definite. Some research is involved in this project, remember.

You need to take the criticism and work with it, not ignore it.

Lordganon 10:50, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Christ! He just gave himself nukes. Not getting graduated with that there, buddy.

Still needs to be smaller and expand less, especially with the new nuclear strikes. No way is that happening now. Add Edirne, in European Turkey, as well, please.

Lordganon 10:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know per our earlier discussion, I have posted my thoughts as you asked on your discussion page for Turkey. Please let me know if you wish to talk further in the future.--Fxgentleman 03:30, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

A coalition of several nations and city states in the area surounding the Rhein in former west germanyVegas adict 16:52, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation?Vegas adict 17:25, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... The name should be in English. I'm believe that our titles should all be in English, unless the author writes it in a different language. The map needs to be worked out. as well.Arstarpool 20:53, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'm seeing alot of nuclear strikes in the area. According to the Luxembourg article, many of these areas were in chaos. Arstarpool 17:07, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Definetly, most of the northern Rhine area would have been totaly destroyed but the south was less industialised so that allows for the creation of a group of states over ten years laterVegas adict 17:09, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Most of the population of the Rhineland is actually Catholic, the map in the army renegade conflict should be clarified so that it matches the map in the info box, and I doubt that the factories would be in shape enough to export that far - maybe to Luxembourg or the alps, but any further is a bit of a stretch.

Lordganon 10:44, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Should we make it obsolete? Arstarpool 23:56, July 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, Arstar, Vegas was working hard to make it work. Ask him, though. I am not much on what's happening in Europe. SouthWriter 01:46, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'v actualy fixed to objections that Lordganon raisedVegas adict 19:21, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Arstarpool 19:29, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

So any objections to grad? --GOPZACK 23:15, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Germany is way too crowded right now, so maybe if you could shrink it down a little bit, that would be fine. Arstarpool 01:37, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

I'v shrunk down the area of control, so can it be graduated?Vegas adict 18:28, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You'll want to make the area around Wiesbaden-Mainz in the southeast of the country that claimed color too - it would not be very habitable after the twin strikes there.

Lordganon 06:55, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I just made a proposal about Georgia, a breakaway state that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * You make vague mention of military bases in Georgia being hit. Can you be more specific? I think Batumi would be hit. Mitro 16:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Arstarpool 16:21, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not yet its still very vague. --GOPZACK 19:29, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Sulnate of Turkey, which claims most of Georgia, has much more merit. I think this one and Ossetia have to go. Arstarpool 19:29, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * This Article exist before Turkey's one and if you read the article of Turkey, you can see that he deleted that part, and the article has been changed is now more complete.
 * I think that all those damn little break-away states that Vene made need to be eliminated, except Ossetia, which has much more merit. Arstarpool 22:34, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 22:15, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 22:15, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I still need to go over this. Could you at least wait until I do that for ven before asking about them? For some of them its even still effectively a copy of the OTL history post DD. Sheesh.

Lordganon 03:52, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I kicked Ven out of the Georgia project. So theres really nothing to be done on your part. Arstarpool 03:01, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

And where on earth did that occur? Haven't seen hide nor hair of that.

Besides, I've been the one going about planning it out so its actually decent - where have you been? No where.

At any rate, the point still holds - the blasted thing is still basically the wikipedia article, but copied to here.

Thus, I still object to it.

Lordganon 10:48, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I returned!!!!!! VENEZUELA 04:21, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

No need to brag Ven. Now, to fix this up, tomorrow.....

Lordganon 11:40, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I already change the article (which I din't created) VENEZUELA 02:15, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * This article conflicts with the Sulnate of Turkey. Arstarpool 19:27, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It conflicts because it was written like 2 months before the Sultanate of Turkey article.Oerwinde 08:05, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmkay. Turkey is still waaay more plausible. Also, there would have been several military bases there. And a Republic called "Both" Ossetias? I don't think so. Arstarpool 16:24, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Article has been changed, any objections to graduation? VENEZUELA 04:04, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I object. The causcauses were obliterated on Doomsday. They were covered in fallout and suffered from starvation. I highly doubt any stable civilization would come up in this or any area of the causcaus. Arstarpool 04:24, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Many Civilizations would appear in the Caucasus because

most of this places in the Caucasus weren't nuked, and the people in the county although they were affected they survive at least some 100 that will create the new nations like their ancestors did millions of years ago, based from what the survivors know and remember and from the remaining technology, like the tribe boys in Mad Max.VENEZUELA 02:57, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Good for changing the name though.

Lordganon 05:47, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lordganon here. VENEZUELA has been creating a lot of articles in and around the region and I'm all for it, but I think he might have gone over the top. Most of the articles are either copied directly from Wikipedia or have poor grammer. The later can be changed easily, but the former means he'd need to scrap entire articles. Furthermore, do we really need to know about the flora and fauna of these countries? Especially since it seems that that was yet again copied from Wikipedia. Perhaps adding something like an Economy or Military section would make more sense.--Vladivostok 07:01, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oerwinde deleted the article and turn it poor, I already change it, and Vladivostok if you want you might add the economy and military. VENEZUELA 17:11, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my bad on that, I hit rollback to revert you graduating it and it reverted all your edits. I should have hit undo.Oerwinde 01:05, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Vladivostok is adding the military and economy on all the Caucasus articles, credit for that parts is for him. VENEZUELA 02:57, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objection? VENEZUELA 00:08, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. As Ganon told you, wait a bit because asking them to be graduated got you in trouble in the first place. Arstarpool 17:00, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 22:17, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'll object until I get the chance to smooth it out for ven a bit as asked.

Lordganon 03:02, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Audrey Hepburn
High guys, VENEZUELA has put up a site in honor of Audrey Hepburn. He has mostly cut and pasted and is having trouble trimming it to standard 1983DD specs. How about commenting over at that talk page to give him some help. SouthWriter 20:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

I would like help, maybe if someone can summarize the article and make a better post-doomsday part. VENEZUELA 21:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

This is all copied from Wikipedia, except you changed the names of the countries. Do we really need a page on Audrey Hepburn??? Arstarpool 22:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you Arstar, for now this ought to be marked as obsolete. --GOPZACK 00:47, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, could you at least wait until I finish going over these articles like Ven asked me to do before you start asking things about them? Sheesh. It can at least wait until I go over it.

Lordganon 03:04, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Much better now, but it definitely needs work as to more of her activities with charity - and her movies as well, honestly - after DD. Definitely better, mind.

Lordganon 14:10, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of Macedonia
Its a small nation in the southern Balkan peninsula, its a constitutional monarchy, based off mostly of the real Macedonia and headed by a real Yugoslav prince, living in Seville in 1983 which wasn't nuked (I checked). Ownerzmcown 02:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

You still dont get it - The list of targets is NOT COMPLETE. Seville is a major port and industrial center and as a result would have been clobbered. Also, you do not state how on earth he could have gotten all the way from there to Yugoslavia in the first place, or gotten all those men. And that's besides the fact that Yugoslavia was not hit at all and survived as a state until 1985.

The state is too large besides, and interferes with too much. Make it the size of modern Macedonia at MOST.

Lordganon 3:41, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Look, I know you're pissed about me saying Macedonia contacted Greece without talking to you, but I apoligized on the talk page. Plus, you operate a lot of countries who are large than Macedonia, and were established later than it. Ownerzmcown 3:47, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ganon, please STAY OUT OF THIS. You are out of place here. Coming from someone who just started, his article is pretty good. Yugoslavia was NOT HIT WHATSOEVER. While I agree the borders should be like modern Macedonia, you cannot diss him and saying that Seville was hit is totally false. Yugoslavia was NON ALIGNED. It would not be destroyed. Arstarpool 05:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Seville is in SPAIN, Not Yugoslavia.

Lordganon 10:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Tehnically, the Croatia article I'm writing has Belgrade nuked and since Yank is doing Serbia and I think he agrees as well it would be nuked. If Vienna was nuked, why not Belgrade? The USSR already had plans to attack both countries in case of a war.--Vladivostok 12:27, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you look on a map of Europe, the Greater Macedonia area is relativley small comapred to other nations. Ownerzmcown 12:50, June 28. 2010 (UTC)

I know where Seville is. And I don't know why a completely neutral, communist country would be hit by the USSR. Arstarpool 13:03, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then you'll have to ask yourself why Vienna was nuked. It was also as neutral as it gets.--Vladivostok 14:12, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, Vienna was nuked because the Soviets assumed NATO would violate the neutrality of Austria and move in for invasion through there. They took it out to neutralize a threat. If a neutral communist country is nuked it will be the allies that nuke it.Oerwinde 16:20, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I never really specifically stated who nuked Belgrade, just that it was obliterated. Now, in a conventional war, the Soviets, or NATO, which ever came first, would try to invade Yugoslavia. Now, that wouldn't happen during Doomsday. I just suspected that perhaps one of the superpowers, if not both, would try to take Yugoslavia out of the equation in Europe during the nuclear exchange.--Vladivostok 16:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

If I recall correctly we had a discussion on whether Yugoslavia was nuked about a year ago; therefore the caretaker of Macedonia and whoever else wants to prove his own opinion is true will have to dig through the Archives to the find it. Though I have to warn the caretaker of Macedonia; generally speaking when a nation is up for debate on whether it was nuked or not, I can't think of a time (remember I'm older and went inactive for months, I can't talk about the recent past) when any nation in question was spared; the council of contributors usually ruled in favor of any sort of bombings, probably based on the idea that NATO or the Warsaw Pact would bomb them "just to be on the safe side". Mr.Xeight 19:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the list of targets is unconfirmed, and needs to be updated. Spain is no exception, and I find it hard to believe that Seville would not be hit. Even it it wasn't, it is not explained how on earth he'd get there in the first place. If he were to somehow survive the hit, it is extremely unlogical for him to have not only made it to the bunker, but also survive with so many followers and gotten there in the first place.

And, as I noticed on the talk page for the article, it is illogical that a bunch of Greeks and former communist subjects would except him as king anyway. The chetniks from the war and the anti-royal propaganda afterwards would argue against it, anyway.

Lordganon 03:37, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

This article currently contradicts an older established article. According to the article on : "The remains of failed survivor states have also been discovered at Dubuque and Waterloo." Having a working survivor states conflicts with this article and thus is a violation of QSS and QAA. This article also contradicts with the info on the article, which states that the former city is under QCA control. Under the Editorial Guidelines I have put this article under review. I don't think this is a major issue. The article only needs content mentioning the failed first state and its annexation into the QCA. -Mitro

It also needs to be taken into account "Mitro" that the QCA article said that it had control over Dubuque, but the map of the territory doesn't show it as part of the territory. That is a very minor fact, I understand, but how about the fact that the Quad Cities would've been nuked? That's never been established either. That needs to be worked out first, when that is worked out I'll add my portion about being 'under QCA control'. ProfessorMcG 02:00, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that a piece of canon has not been explained well is not reason to ignore it. Unless its blatantly implausible it should be respected. There are many articles in this TL that are stubs but that does not mean they should not be taken into account when creating and graduating new articles. As for the Quad Cities not being nuked, I don't remember exactly the reason for why they were spared but I believe it went with the fact that any potential targets were relatively minor enough that it is possible that the area would not be targeted.
 * Either way the article has been canon for 5-6 months now, enough time to be established. I'm actually surprised you missed the fact that Dubuque was mentioned as a part of the QCA since you did mention the state in your article.
 * Also please understand I mean nothing personal by my actions. I only just recently noticed the contradictions. -Mitro
 * Mitro, the QUAD Cities Alliance is a series of FOUR cities and thier IMMEDIATE surroundings. It will be the Quint (Five) Cities Alliance if it controlled the area. Arstarpool 02:14, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. The area could be the specific territory of one member of the QCA. Maybe down the road the caretaker of the QCA should look into new members from surrounding towns. -Mitro
 * Haha, sorry Mitro. I just mini-stalked you and found out you actually are Mitro, I would've been mad if someone had been claiming to be you :P. As for the fact that Quad Cities was not nuked, I mean why should I care? Just because Dubuque is annexed by the QCA it doesn't really hurt my article. And from now on I'll make sure to check if my article goes with canon. Excuse me for being frustrated, as someone who is new to 1983: DD I can tell you it is frustrating trying to get into things and creating an article that actually works. That's why I think a new community project is necessary. ProfessorMcG 02:18, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for trying to defend my article Arstar, but it's not that big of a deal ProfessorMcG 02:18, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Prof, please understand I mean nothing personal by my actions. I also am not trying to "attack" your article, I am only attempting to serve the TL by fixing canon. When you have such a large universe as 1983DD, there comes a point when you start finding a lot of contradictions. I realize how frustrating it can be (think about how frustrating it is for fictional universe where people make money off of!!!) but I always found doing a search of the wiki for instances when a person, place of thing is mention on a 1983DD article can help avoid future contradictions. -Mitro
 * Haha Mitro, don't worry I never thought my article was attacked. Just because I used defend, doesn't necessarily mean I thought my article was attacked. But this is stupid. I know your intentions are right, why do I always have to contradict you? Sorry, for picking a needless fight. I'm wrong in my article but this frustation I think applies to more people and I'm going to crusade my ass off for a new community project. ProfessorMcG 02:34, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish you the best of luck, but IMHO I think you are going about this new community project the wrong way. 1983: Doomsday began as just one individual's work of alternate history. Other editors read it, liked it, and contributed to it. As more editors showed up, many new articles contradicted the established TL or else were so implausible that they did not fit. The most active members banded together and created rules for everyone to follow and thus created a community. I feel you are going backwards. You are trying to create a community without anything to unite yourselves around. I would reccomend trying to create your own works of alternate history first and see if they garner any attention. As for this article, the issues with it are minor and can be solved by a few statements and a couple minor corrections. -Mitro
 * Yea...I'm taking a break Mitro. Nothing soothes you better than writing a paper and turning it in 20 minutes before it is due because you are wasting time on althistory right? =) ProfessorMcG 04:31, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well what are we doing with this? --GOPZACK 22:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * If no one is willing to work on this than it should be marked as obsolete. Mitro 22:03, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Don Republic and Kuban
The poll has been eliminate, so please comment if the page must be obsolete or canon. VENEZUELA 19:57, June 29, 2010 (UTC) Obsolete. Both of them. Arstarpool 20:00, June 29, 2010 (UTC) Why? I wan't to know and here not in my user page. VENEZUELA 20:09, June 29, 2010 (UTC) You yourself wrote that the area was "almost dead". An area with massive nearby strikes, fallout, famine and other things would NOT make this a suitable place to be. In the Socialist Siberian Ural Territory article, it states that people come through there fleeing the chaos from the rest of Russia. The reason that the USSR evacuated to Siberia was that the rest of the USSR was OBLITERATED. Arstarpool 20:14, June 29, 2010 (UTC) It WAS (past) almost dead, and you read that there were survivors, humanity can get out of the ashes like the tribe children in mad max, here they would survive from the surviving technology and the survivors knowledge, and ALSO THERE WERE JUST SOME STRIKES NOT MASSIVE, DID YOU EVEN READ THE PAGE? VENEZUELA 20:19, June 29, 2010 (UTC) Calm down Arstar, please. You too Ven. I've already said I'll help him make them up to spec, you just gotta give me the time to do it, lol. The area (at least in my mind) that they were fleeing would have been Moscow - and the area around/east of it - which would have been chaos. If we can have states like the amount in the former USA, why shouldn't there be a fair number in the USSR too? Both nation-states would have received roughly the same damage, I suspect. There may be too many articles for states in the Caucasus. In fact, I'd say that there definitely is. But it should not be something that was decided verbatim that the articles are completely gone. You're moving the articles without giving them any chance. On another note - the map looks better Ven, I'll have a closer look later tonight. Lordganon 20:24, June 29, 2010 (UTC) Humanity doesn't "rise from the ashes". The best you will get is a small town in the area. Arstarpool 21:34, June 29, 2010 (UTC) :

I agree with Arstarpool. --GOPZACK 00:47, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

No, I think that the best I get will be a country, The OBLITERATED (as you said) USA, has like 70 countries some are even near NYC and Washington D.C. like Delmarva, the Caucasus can have many countries like Lordganon said. It's like if you want just to eliminate them. VENEZUELA 22:38, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Lord Ganon says there are TOO MANY COUNTRIES. There are NO countries near NYC or DC. Don't lie, and these articles were marked obsolete TWICE, once by me, and another time by another person. The thing is, the Siberia article states that these areas are in "complete chaos" and "barren of life". Some small towns might come up here. The U.S. has 25 countries. And there are no countries that are in or near nuked spots, other than a couple military bases in the PUSA. Arstarpool 23:27, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Some are very near, and on Siberia article it says that Russia is in chaos, not the other republics, some places of Siberia were nuked and continue be Siberia, also Vladivostok the creator of Siberia is helping me on my ARTICLES, so if in fact these areas would be in chaos, Vladivostok would not help me. VENEZUELA 23:59, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool. don't talk about nuked countries because you created a micronation in former Rome which was a capital of NATO so if you want to turn this obsolete turn New Rome obsolete too, its like creating a nation in former Moscow, Washington, and NYC. VENEZUELA 00:27, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

If you had altually read the article you would see it is the towns OUTSIDE of Rome. But you know what? I'll take up your offer. I will make New Rome obsolete if you mark these two obsolete as well. Arstarpool 00:53, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

No I don't accept that offer.VENEZUELA 00:58, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

This poll will be just to see who agrees it should be marked obsolete. Arstarpool 00:55, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Arstarpool you said that only you and another user turn them obsolete, but I read their stories and you're the only one who has put it OBSOLETE in Kuban. VENEZUELA 02:58, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I may have said that there may have been too many countries, but that doesn't mean that there should be zero. You're reading too much into the chaos bit on the Siberia page.

Like has been said before, the USSR simply did not have the missiles/time to erase the USA. Why on earth would the USA have the means to do the same? It does not make sense logically for that to be the case.

The USSR leadership would have seen the chaos around their refuge and fled east to the radio signals, much like the USA government did. Makes no sense to be anything else.

Really, to argue that it was obliterated goes against canon itself, for you cannot have a destroyed USSR without a destroyed USA.

The articles may not be quite up to speck atm, but I did say I'd help him with that if he did what I asked. And he did. And he's right, Vlad would not help him at all if he thought it was wrong, and he's the Siberia guy!

Lordganon 03:31, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I've gone over the Kuban article and made it much more... acceptable. Would only really be a stub atm, but much better, no? Others are coming. Lordganon 06:48, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Have gone over the Don as well now. Would be much the same principle, a stub, really, but does seem better. Will be going over the others in a few days as they are not so pressing.

Lordganon 08:47, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Question: Should Don and Kuban be marked Obsolete?

Leave a "yes" or "no" comment below signed with your username.

Yes, they should be marked obsolete. Arstarpool 02:13, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

No, they should not be marked obsolete. VENEZUELA 02:23, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

No, should not be obsolete. I've agreed to help him fix them, though you must not have noticed. Lordganon 03:31, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Can I just add that, although the initial size and all were a implausible, I think these two smaller nations could have survived. Now I don't exactly know which areas would be directly nuked, but come on, how many survivor nations do we have now in the United States and Canada alone? Thirty? And there are currently only around five canon ones in the USSR. Now, although it is true a lot of people fled into Siberia after the attacks, that does not mean that life in other areas is not possible. Small communities could live on, albeit a meager existance.--Vladivostok 07:31, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Me and Sunkist's proposal for a military alliance in Italy. Arstarpool 05:49, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * No mention of the Alpine Confederation? Kind of odd to me, since it has been stated time and time again that it is the principle contributor to North Italian stability in the face of the Sicilians.--Vladivostok 07:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is more of an Italian alliance to combat Sicily within the peninsula. That would be like having Pais del Oro in the Organization of British Nations. Arstarpool 07:08, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I wasn't thinking of them joining, of course not. But perhaps some funding would be in order. I mean the AC is de jure neutral but de facto it actively supports the ADC and northern Italy. Thus, I was thinking something along the lines of them being an observer. Maybe the ADC as a whole could be the same.--Vladivostok 07:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I'll write it in. Arstarpool 15:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 01:31, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for the nation formed after the Pais de Oro and Spanish Republic union. Arstarpool 04:32, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've adopted this article and this name has also won the poll so it can be graduated, albeit as a stub. Any Objections? --GOPZACK 15:21, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Pashtunistan
A country in former Afghanistan! VENEZUELA 17:40, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to graduate it in 2 weeks if no one objects? Any objection? VENEZUELA 17:42, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

There is already a country there, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Arstarpool 18:35, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Actually is in one part of Pashtunistan NOT in all Pashtunistan. VENEZUELA 18:36, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah I see Ven has changed the location of this new state. Originally it was in Kandahar. -Mitro

Balochistan
Another country in Afghanistan. Any objection? VENEZUELA 01:14, July 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just think Afghanistan will be too crowed. Most of the country is not to suitable for life nevermind an organized nation. --GOPZACK 01:46, July 7, 2010 (UTC)\
 * I agree with Zack. Arstarpool 02:37, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objection to marking this as obsolete? --GOPZACK 14:47, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, but knowing Vene, he'll mark it as a proposal again saying that there are too many nations in America so there can be a lot of nations everywhere else. Arstarpool 16:23, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

VENEZUELA 16:13, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll have to tell him that the geography and conditions very by location. If he fails to realize this we can take further action. WE'll just have to wait and see. --GOPZACK 16:52, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * In fact were Balochistan is located no parts were nuked. VENEZUELA 19:00, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh my God, I am about to lose my patience. So four nations will be able to survive in desert lands with little to no trade? Arstarpool 21:33, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * First what 4 nations? and second I never said they doesn't have trade. VENEZUELA 21:35, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is the Northern Alliance, Afghanistan, the other one you made, and Balochistan. It is logical that in a time like this, trade would be cut off. Use your head, Vene. Arstarpool 01:21, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * One nation in Afganistan tops! Pick one you think is most viable then the rest should be marked as obsolete. GOPZACK 01:42, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Zack, has anyone ever told you your right almost all the damn time? Arstarpool 02:17, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha! As a matter of fact yes. Thanks! --GOPZACK 02:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm at my witts end with Vene. Any objections to making this article obsolete? Arstarpool 03:31, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, and wait until other people that are not you or Gopzack writes. VENEZUELA 03:33, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * What's your objection, Vene? Arstarpool 03:38, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair, before we mark this as obsolete lets here what Vene has to say. --GOPZACK 03:41, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting....Arstarpool 15:18, July 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Balochistan is to small, so in fact it can survive and be away from the radiation
 * there is no Northern Alliance (except in Canada)
 * the Baloch had live like in the 1 century for years, so in fact they can survive
 * The Baloch wouldn't care about the deaths because they just want a nation since the 18 Century.

A Baloch nation would be interesting, in that it would likely cause issues in Pakistan and Iran, as parts of them are part of the Balochistan region and have large Baloch populations.Oerwinde 20:07, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

That better guys? If so, any objections to graduation as a stub?

Will be making the other Afghan one more.... workable. It's just no good with that map.

--Lordganon 16:46, July 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I still have my doubts about the viability of another Afgahn survivor nation. Ven points out that "the Baloch had live like in the 1 century for years, so in fact they can survive" but they never had to deal with a nuclear war & the final point Ven makes lets of the impression that the Baloch are pretty heartless, which I doubt is true. --GOPZACK 17:57, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have to admit - I completely disregarded the vast majority of what he said and wrote, and made it realistic. This as written now is essentially an Iranian puppet, honestly.

But, to only leave the area of Afghanistan as the "Northern Alliance" and the Pakistani-supported state being the only "nations" seems like it wouldn't be enough.

Lordganon 10:47, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article I mentioned in the South Florida article. Arstarpool 07:00, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Page to document the fate of Miami. Arstarpool 21:30, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for the north-western corner of the state. Arstarpool 00:29, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I hate to be buzz kill but Erie was hit I believe, but the article could still work. However I think the article could still work, I made mention in my State College article of some survivors in Oil City & that has become canon. I can work with you to fit this in if you'd like. --GOPZACK 00:45, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is where I'm going to apply a theory of mine to counter-attack Eire being hit:

Almost every article has one town standing that should have been destroyed. Virginia has Richmond, Sierra Nevada has Reno, Lincoln has, well, Lincoln, and Kentucky has Fort Knox. Well mine is just going to be Eire. If you don't like that, then you can remove the aforementioned cities from their respective articles and then I'll remove Eire. Arstarpool 02:03, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well Richmond was hit, so that might sweeten the deal some. Nonetheless that theory with do respect is bullshit. We don't swap the nuking of cites so one article or the other can fit. --GOPZACK 02:11, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

According to Yank, Richmond was not hit. If it is "bulls**t", then why do you cling so dearly to Fort Knox, a known target? Remember that the the FEMA list is the FEMA list, and I'm sure the Soviet's had their own map on what they were going to nuke. Arstarpool 02:47, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yank's out to lunch with the Richmond thing and everyone but him knows it. Fort Knox is a secondary target, and it can be argued that it would not be hit in this scenario - it even says in the article that the troops there were surprised to not be hit. Reno is an entertainment town, and a tertiary target - and I think that is overrated myself. Erie is indeed a teritary target, but it IS on the list atm, so...... And its the northWEST corner, fyi.

P.S. I noticed you taking the strike off the tuscany article! Tsk tsk. Lordganon 03:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've opened up the discussion to the whole community above as to whether Erie was hit or not. T'was established many moons ago that Fort Knox was not hit. Arstar you have no Soviet map and your charge causes for unneeded and rather biased speculation. I agree with Lordganon on Reno. Oh & Lordganon whats this about removing the strike on the Tuscany article? --GOPZACK 03:28, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you think that the Soviets were out to destroy every little city in North America? No, and whoever added it to the list just copied every single possible target from the FEMA Target List, including tertiary targets.
 * As for Tuscany, the power went out when I was rewriting the history of Florence, so I lost internet access as well. True Story. Arstarpool 03:40, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright well thats not entirely true, some tertiary targets, secondary targets and even one primary target were not listed on the Doomsday page and were listed as having survived in various articles. --GOPZACK 03:50, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * On what talk page, might I ask? Arstarpool 03:52, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I meant to write the Doomsday page. GOPZACK 04:08, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I meant to write the Doomsday page. GOPZACK 04:08, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

LG, if you would. He'd had the Tuscany article have a non-nuclear strike on the industrial district of Florence, which he removed something during the day today. Nothing big, and I dont care much, to be honest. Did notice, though.

Lordganon 03:59, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

So is Erie safe or not? Arstarpool 04:24, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

We''l wait & se what the community has to say. GOPZACK 05:31, July 23, 2010 (UTC)''

Does anyone have any other objections? Arstarpool 19:22, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

The New York article - and the Doomsday by US Sate one as well - make mention of a survivor state in Westfield, Which is a city in the counties of New York which you've claimed. That'll need to be dealt with one way or the other.

Lordganon 06:54, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

The fact they discovered it just means they found it, not that it is independent as of now. Arstarpool 16:44, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I think contact with London would have come sooner. London is extremely close to the Canadian protectorate, only an hour and 45 minute drive, or 20 hour walk and would likely have contacted them much earlier than 1990, more like 85. So Pennsylvania would have had knowledge of them pretty much immediately following contact.Oerwinde 18:02, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

That can't happen because the Canadian protectorate was created in 1990. Arstarpool 18:14, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying that the communities that make up the protectorate would have had contact with London around 85. They're too close not to. So when Pennsylvania makes contact with the communities that make up the protectorate, they would likely let them know about London surviving less than 2 hours away. At that point London would be working on restoring the railroad to Port Stanley and would be easily contacted. So contact with London and the creation of the protectorate would be about the same time. London was mostly expanding according to its needs rather than building an empire, so Port Stanley was more important than the protectorate communities as it would give access to lake Erie for fishing and such, which would explain why they hadn't been incorporated into London's territory despite being so close.Oerwinde 08:46, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? I really want a quick graduation for this page since I think its done. Arstarpool 16:44, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Toledo Confederation
GOPZack, Caeruleus, a few other contributers and myself are currently working on a proposal for a nation centralized in what was Northwestern Ohio. The article is about half done right now. Help on its construction would be greatly appreciated. If you have any suggestions, or notice any errors please post them either here or in the Toledo talk page. Thank you in advance for your help.

My apologies if anything has been done incorrectly. JackofSpades 03:11, July 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jack your doing everything right so far! I'm sorry I haven't contributed much to the article lately I've been busy as evidenced above but I will take a look at it soon. --GOPZACK 03:21, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

No need to be sorry. I fully realize that you are a very busy person. Today, I took a glance at your talk page and nearly had a fit. You have a lot of work. JackofSpades 03:23, July 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll be gone for about two weeks, beginning tomarrow. While I most likely will have internet access, updates will be... sporadic. Anyone is free to add to the current page if they would like to. Right now, I'm having difficulty with the history. However, a general list of thoughts and ideas are in the Talk page for inspiration. JackofSpades 01:52, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

===Invasion of Southeastern Cambridgeshire, Invasion of Norfolk, and Invasion of the Isle of Eels=== A trio of invasions following up the recent invasion of West Suffolk, written by me, Verence and Bob respectively. Fegaxeyl 09:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

True British Army (1983: Doomsday)
links into Essex and Woodbridge.--Smoggy80 19:51, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Nakchivan
Call it the companion to Armenia and Azerbaijan. Since there's no way for Azerbaijan to control the territory, It'd be independent. Would like it to be graduated, and stubbed, like Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Lordganon 10:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Any object to graduation as a stub?

Lordganon 10:49, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article mentioned on the Pennsylvania talk page. Arstarpool 00:41, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Crap, I had one I was half working on since like noon friday and finally hit submit on what little I had late at night only to find this on the talk page. Anyway, mine was here London, ON (1983: Doomsday)Oerwinde 09:36, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Part of a project me and JackOfSpades are putting together for the Great Lakes region. Before you say "they would have been effected by the strikes on Buffalo, NY", read what I posted on the talk page of the article. Arstarpool 06:09, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for Midland Ontario. I hope to flush it out in the next few days. Ideas are welcome & if anyone would like to write it with me just contact me on my talk page. --GOPZACK 06:23, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Katanga (1983: Doomsday)
My proposal for a breakaway satate in the former Democratic Republic of the Congo (which I'm assuming fell to pieces following Doomsday).

Yankovic270 19:48, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Post-Soviet Union States
Article about nations that arise form the USSR, like China's one, please feel free to do articles about the nations mentioned that do not have an article yet. VENEZUELA 00:52, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Any objection? VENEZUELA 00:57, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Umm... I guess I found my new priority of your stuff, Ven..... I don't think most of that is canon, or even a proposal, especially with the map.

And quit asking for graduation so fast ven!

Lordganon 12:37, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Looks like I missed a few words there - either way, they honestly shouldn't have been put there yet. In retrospect, that looks a bit meaner than I'd thought, though. My apologies, ven.

At any rate, I redid the map for ya - not quite as nice looking, but at least its not full of countries that aren't even proposed yet, and the borders are right now, more or less.

Will fix the page for you right now.

Lordganon 16:23, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How's it look now guys?

Lordganon 10:54, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Me and JackOfSpades' proposal for a international organization in the Great Lakes region. Arstarpool 01:34, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

WWF
OTL organization just that incorpored to LoN. VENEZUELA 23:17, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think in a world that is fighting to survive people have better things to do than worry about pandas and birds. Arstarpool 17:39, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

I think that OTHER creatures are also important, because if the LoN really works, it most protect other creatures. VENEZUELA 17:42, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Given the environmental destruction on Doomsday and the climate change afterwards (as established in the climate and Utah articles, among others) it makes some sense for the LoN to have some sort of agency like this - and why not reunite the surviving regional offices of the WWF to do it? People would remember it, so it would be much better than some new organization.

I've gone over it now, and gave it the name it would have - the name he gave it originally wasn't given to them until 1986 - after DD. So it wouldn't have been changed. but much better now.

Lordganon 14:36, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

An article about someone that died on Doomsday. Do we have a protocol for articles like this? --GOPZACK 00:15, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

PUSA Constitutional Convention and the "Decleration of Suceeding"
We need to talk about the above, guys. The second bit is the document that shows the the Conituaion Act is void and that the Consituion is back in force.--HAD 21:52, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Strikes in Africa
There is a USA military base in Egypt call Cairo West Air Base since 1964 why would the USSR would not touch it and why South Africa was not touched because it had nuclear weapons and was an ally of USA. VENEZUELA 23:57, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

Looking at that base, it seems to be just a refueling base - wouldn't matter too much.

South Africa was not an ally by any means - the apartheid was just something they couldn't overlook. It was nonaligned. As it was, the nukes were unconfirmed at the time as well, though suspected by both sides.

Although, it has been a topic of discussion before about Cairo - and there are those of us that think someone would have hit it before the Israelis.

Lordganon 00:41, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

One of the main hold-ups I have had in moving forward on Israel's history has been what happened to Egypt on DD. Based on everything I know and have read about Egypt makes it seem implausable they would self implode without the help of a few strikes. Egypt was a strong country with what they would have needed to survive, oil, food, etc. DD is not going to bring down the government that easy. Pres. Mubarak had a strong grip on the country along with the military and intelligence people. If he along with Cairo and say two or three key military bases were taken out, then I could see a civil war erupt and the Islamists emerge to takeover and thus lead to Israel nuking them. I am unsure who is the caretaker for Egypt right now. If they could contact me I would appreciate it.--Fxgentleman 03:44, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Louis is the creator. You should talk to him. Mitro 14:49, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Mitro, I wasn't sure. --Fxgentleman 20:14, July 30, 2010 (UTC)