Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Map


Wasn't Tibet divided up between Hanthawaddy and China? Also, I can't believe I forgot about two Khanates! CrimsonAssassin 20:19, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Claimed, but not fully controlled. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:45, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

New map uploaded 5 August. Contact me if you want to edit it, as it would be very difficult without the original source image. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:45, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

War
Okay, so it appears we have our first real conflict between players. Japan vs. Brandenburg. So I have a rough outline of how we determine the outcome. It will be by points. The proportion of points will determine who keeps what territory. For example, Portugal and Nepal go to war (random example). Portugal has 5 points and Nepal has 40. Thus, it is Nepal's victory. Since Portugal got only 5/45 total points, that means it will lose 35/45 (the total number of points minus twice that much) of its territory. Note that if someone invades another country and loses, the defenders do not get to annex the attackers' territory unless it is nearby. If a country is victorious over a colony, it needs to take over 50% of that country's colony, which may be compounded over multiple wars as long as the wars occur within a hundred years. The formula makes more sense once you see how it works. Points will be awarded as follows. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:12, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Location
Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground (capital is on higher ground than fought-over territory by at least 300m): 2

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: 3
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * said country has ruled said area for 6-15 years: 2
 * said country has ruled said area for 16-30 years: 5
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

Multiply

 * times 2/3 (country has vassals or is in personal union with another country)
 * times 1.5 (country is in civil disarray)

Discussion
Everyone okay with the rules? They should apply until we get into global wars. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:31, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

I strongly suggest in wars where the main nation targets a nearby colony of another far away nation that the main nation gets some sort of bonus. Anyone agree? Scandinator 12:59, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

We've had this issue before during the Brandenburg-Japan War. What we decided was that a) faraway countries get lower points, b) if a country causes a colony to lose 50% of its land, the colony is fully annexed. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 16:39, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe we should factor in inactivity??? e.g every five years inactive since the war is -1 point...153.107.33.161 00:33, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Wars?
I was just wondering... If this is going to be a feasible alternative history, shouldn't their be more conflicts? We are all (me included) trying to avoid even minor wars like it is the nuclear age. We have only had (correct me if I'm wrong ) two conflicts which have gone to an algorithm in the entire game! This is far less than would be expected in an actual history!Zagoria 14:23, July 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, Inca is under Chinese occupation (when they took it over, there was no War Algorithm, so I had to use colonization rules. Taking forever to annex though!) -CrimsonAssassin
 * There is a lot of territory not occupied by the chinese, is completely feasible for some user to control the Inca.However, you should estabilish a new colony to expand quicker in Inca territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:23, July 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I attempted to make the Russo-Mughal phony war flame up, but to no avail. I think there will be some conflicts in the future as there certainly seems to be 2 seperate "alliance blocs" and nothing good can ever come from that. I've got some things up my sleeve in terms of radically changing my particular political spectrum, which in turn of course changes my particular alliance structure, but that is still quite a few years away. I also attempted to make the Iberian conflict flare up, but it ended pretty quickly since Emperor Fuiroz was assassinated. I've tried twice to start up a war, but both times the other sides backed down. Eh, hopefully it will happen sooner or later. JonAllenMichael 15:53, July 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I attempted to make the Russo-Mughal phony war flame up, but to no avail. I think there will be some conflicts in the future as there certainly seems to be 2 seperate "alliance blocs" and nothing good can ever come from that. I've got some things up my sleeve in terms of radically changing my particular political spectrum, which in turn of course changes my particular alliance structure, but that is still quite a few years away. I also attempted to make the Iberian conflict flare up, but it ended pretty quickly since Emperor Fuiroz was assassinated. I've tried twice to start up a war, but both times the other sides backed down. Eh, hopefully it will happen sooner or later. JonAllenMichael 15:53, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

I agree but I can't think of a feasible way to carry it out. I don't expect any world wars, it's way too early to do so. Around this time, to my knowledge, wars are mostly limited to a few feuds and the general roar of war in Europe. I may plan to break up the power bloc in Southeast Asia sometime soon but my country is not ready. Also, people should not overlook civil wars as a realistic event. So I'll leave this to the Europeans to create small minor conflicts by invading each other. Part of the problem is our power blocs are too big. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:05, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

I guess a lot of it is my fault, for uniting Germany. Most of the wars of the time came from Germany and Italy. Maybe we should invite any new players to play as a minor Italian nation. Italy seems kind of neglected at this point.Zagoria 15:51, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, the wars happened in Germany not just because it's Germany, but around this time they were mostly wars of religion, and Germany was just the melting pot of European religion. Since most nations have Freedom of Religion (which by the way, is a pretty foreign concept pretty much globally at the time) then they also have no real reason to fight religious wars. If a state doesn't endorse a religion, then why bother invading nation "x" because they are persecuting a particular faith? The 1600's was also characterized by Dynastic and Secessionist wars, which were basically just power plays by a major nation to alter the balance of power in their favor by either marrying into and forming a dynastic link with another nation, or by becoming pretenders to a throne. (See the War of Spanish Succession and the War of Austrian Succession.) Honestly, we have done exactly what the powers in Europe and Asia did at the time, we've established a balance of power, and we are maintaining the status quo. What would be interesting is if there was a royal crisis that perhaps divided Europe or Asia and destroyed the balance of power in either of those continents... I couldn't see a World War happening here as Europeans really didn't care what happened in Asia and visa versa at this time. Just a thought. JonAllenMichael 19:33, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

Im pretty sure many countries are avoiding most wars because of the complex net of alliances that are probably more complicated than the ones that started WWI! If one country attacks another half the world is either neutral because of mutual alliances with both combattants or of allies of allies of either side and if they support one ally they are attacking another one that is helping the other side.(btw this is Lx, i cant seem to log on here)85.237.50.123 07:09, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Very true as well. I dunno, maybe having mod created political disasters as well as the enviromental disasters could perhaps change the landscape a little? JonAllenMichael 15:43, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Flag Creation
So I'm attempting to expand the details of my nation, and I was wanting to be able to create some flags instead of reusing and rehashing old flags from the OTL. Is there a "how to" or anything like that for how to go about creating your own flag and coat of arms?? JonAllenMichael 01:22, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

1 2. There are many places online to find resources on making a good flag, but sometimes you just have to improvise. For coats of arms, a good idea to study Heraldry. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:08, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a good place that I can go to that will also teach me how to actually make the flags also, ie Photoshop?? JonAllenMichael 16:04, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Jon's Rant on Rifles
So yeah, I know I'm not a mod, but there is one thing that bugs the heck out of me. I really hope I don't create enemies but... it bugs me that entire armies have been using Rifles since the 1550's. Look, I know that rifles have been around since then, but just because a technology has been around since a certain time period it does NOT mean that in an ATL countries can magically adopt it. First off, the technique to actually produce a rifle during this time period takes MUCH longer than producing a musket. Since everything is handcrafted, it makes it close to impossible to actually equip an entire army of a nation with just a rifle until the Industrial Revolution.

Even if you were able to explain in our ATL how you could manufacture such a complex firing system for an entire army, you would have to take into fact that the quality of gunpowder and metallurgy actually destroyed most rifles after around 50 shots. The residue of the gunpowder in 16th and 17th century rifles would foul the rifle and make it useless. Muskets didn't have to worry about this problem since they didn't have any grooves. Also, the fact that a pointed projectile hasn't been invented (that was invented in the early 18th century) means that ball ammo is absolutely going to destroy the rifling of your weapons.

So let's assume you have found a way to increase industrial production time, created a sufficient metallurgical process, found the secrets to modern black powder, and created a shaped round. Now that your army is completely equipped with rifles, I would honestly still go to war with you and I could probably guarantee that I would win. My army still uses matchlock muskets, so we have a firing rate of about 1 shot per minute, but if I adopt flintlock, I can fire on average about 2 a minute. If you are using a matchlock rifle, it would take about 3 minutes to load a round, and a flintlock rifle would take about 2. It takes this long not only because you have to ram the bullet down a rifled barrel, but also because you have to take extra steps to ensure you aren't fouling your gun. That means I'm sending twice as much lead down the field as you. Your argument then would be "Well, my guns are much more accurate!!" which you would be absolutely correct about, for about the first volley. We are firing 17th century black powder. You know in the movies how the smoke just whips away off the battlefield? Yeah that's because they are using about a hundred actors. Imagine tens of thousands of soldiers, firing their guns for hours on a battlefield. I promise you, you would lose any advantage of accuracy after about a minute, at which point more lead flying down the battlefield becomes all the more important. Why do you think it took so long for armies to adopt the rifle anyways? JonAllenMichael 16:20, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Archive
This talk page is getting pretty big. I think we should archive it.

-CrimsonAssassin

You're right, I was waiting until it reached 100,000 and it has. Do me a favor and create the page Talk:Principia Moderni/Archive 1 and copy-paste everything above "Wars?" into the article but don't delete it from this article. I will do that myself. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:33, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * I already did that.-Collie Kaltenbrunner 22:10, July 23, 2011 (UTC)

who messed up the page?

An unregistered user I think. CrimsonAssassin 01:52, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

doesnt matter i fixed itLxCaucassus 02:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Algorythm #3 (China/Vietnam/Commonwealth/Sweden vs Hanthawaddy/Russia)
Somebody can do it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:50, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'll do China/Hanthawaddy and Sweden/Hanthawaddy. Would you be okay with following suit and doing Russia/China and Vietnam/Hanthawaddy? Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 16:14, July 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:11, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Hanthawaddy

 * close to the location of war: 3
 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * Hanthawaddy/Russia/Kazakhstan: 9
 * military development: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is religious: 7
 * 1061/336*pi = 992.032682% >3 pts
 * 18:17:32 > 1*8*1*7*3*2=336
 * Editcount: 1061


 * participating in the war: 10
 * country does not rule said area: 0

Total points: 3+1+9+5+0+7+3+10=38 pts

China

 * far from location of the war: 2
 * China/Vietnam/Commonwealth/Sweden: 12
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 1
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * 790/160*pi=1551.16137% >6 pts
 * 21:12:58 > 2*1*1*2*5*8=160
 * Editcount: 790


 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

2+12+2+1+10+6+10-5=38 pts

Result
Stalemate: Hanthawaddy is expelled from China, but borders revert to status quo ante bellum, unless additional concessions are made via treaty.

Discussion
kazachstan also was fighting china, does this count as a participant(it was a vassal state) in the algorithm or does it count as the amin country or as part points?(i know they pulled out but for some time they were fighting china they only fully pulled out in 1610 just before the algorithm so I think it should still count, i dont want to be unfair, this is curiosity, if it counts as full nation, then it sould be equal points and it should be status quo ante bellum or unti possedis treaty)

Yeah they count, sorry I missed that. For the sake of simplicity let's just apply it to this war and not the other two. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:56, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Vietnam/Hanthawaddy War
Territory in question: OTL Thailand and Laos.

Hanthawaddy

 * close to location of war: 3
 * Russia/Hanthawaddy: 6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5
 * 1067/24*pi=13966.9973% >9 pts
 * 1*6*1*2*1*2=24
 * Editcount: 1067

3+6+2+5+0+10+10-5+9=40

Vietnam

 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * Sweden/China/Commonwealth/Vietnam: 12
 * country has developed military: 0
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is political: 5
 * 3596/54*pi=20920.679967%>7 pts
 * 23:10:45 > 2*3*1*4*5=54
 * Editcount: 3596


 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 151+ years: -5

3+12+0+0+5+7+10-5=32

No Full Unity: 32 times 2/3 = 21.3333333

Result
40/61.3333333=0.652173913

2(Ans-0.5)=0.304347826

Decisive Mon victory. Hanthawaddy may annex 9,390 px (469,532 sq km) of Vietnamese territory from ante bellum, or arrange additional concessions via treaty. The Kingdom of Singburi is abolished and may be partitioned or fully annexed by Hanthawaddy or Vietnam.

Hanthawaddy

 * other side of the world: 1
 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * Russia/Hanthawaddy: 6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion: 0
 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 31-80 years: 10
 * 1067/24*pi=13966.9973% >9 pts
 * 16:12:12 > 1*6*1*2*1*2=24
 * Editcount: 1067

1+1+6+2+5+0+10+10+10+9 = 54 pts

Sweden

 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * Sweden/China/Commonwealth/Vietnam: 12
 * country has developed military: 1
 * expansion: -3
 * motive is political: 5
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 0-5 years: -5
 * 90/57*pi = 496.0409% > 4 pts
 * 00:35:32 > 3*5*3*2 = 90
 * Editcount: 57

3+12+1-3+5+10-5+4=27 pts

Result
54/81=0.66666

0.6666-0.5=0.1666666

0.166666*2 = 0.333333

Clear Mon victory. Hanthawaddy may annex 9,895 px (494,766 sq km) of Swedish territory from the point of ante bellum as part of its Toeh Ngoa Nyoing administration, or make additional concessions via treaty.

Can I be Naples?
Can I join the game as Naples? - Wijata Mateusz 14:23 (UTC), August 4, 2011

Of course, they say, "the more the merrier."

BTW Sweden would like an alliance if you join :)

Thanks for message !!! - Wijata Mateusz 14:35 (UTC), August 4, 2011

I changed decision, i wouldn't join the game, because i have no time - Wijata Mateusz 20:52 (UTC), August 24, 2011

Expansion NEEDS to pick up.
It's 1620, when colonialism really picked up. Yet, most territories are tiny circles and the expansion is really slow. I think, at least during the mid to late 1600s, that there should be an increase in expansion. There was a huge landgrab at around this time. -CrimsonAssassin

I like that idea...I agreeLxCaucassus 02:46, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree too. Expansion is way too slow. Also everyone on this map game is also scared shitless by the alliance webs that even involve inactive players. I suggest if a player is inactive and someone declares war on them then noone can support the inactive player. Scandinator 00:17, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

How about we temporarily double expansion rates for the duration of the period?

Yank 01:11, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. but maybe until 1700 or before, if the colonies start declaring independence in 1776--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Good idea!!! Maybe double till the start of the 19th century and then triple until the start of the 1920s (scramble for Africa).Scandinator 03:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Now this is exaggerating.all Africa would be conquered in less than 50 years like that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:01, August 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly what happened!!!! Scandinator 14:18, August 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * You can't call something "implausible" when it actually happened. Yank 17:17, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Africa was not colonized by 1850. Again, hardly anyone was colonizing by 1600, and only Spain and Portugal had more than like 3 colonies. Right now, people should focus on creating coastlines, which was the focus of the time period. Don't worry on inland expansion, that comes later. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:13, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Inactivity Vote of '11
As a mod, I would like to propose a vote to open up (make their nations available for entering users to officially claim) the nations of all inactive (has not posted for at least a week unnanounced or a month of announced inactivity) users effective September 1st. This does not mean that alliances are void, it simply means another user can control the nation.

-CrimsonAssassin

Observations
Been gone a little while. Just a few things i thought I would note:

1) No way submarines are going to be used widespread or for anything remotely military until at least the 1620s. Guys, don't jump the gun on technology.

2) Expansion is not going to pick up in the 1600s, because this is still the time when countries are basically colonizing coastlines for trading purposes, not creating entire new societies. I will consider raising expansion in the 1700s, and then in the 1850s, but for now, be patient. The thirteen colonies are still barely taking form, and we perceive it as slow because it is not a fast process like conquering territory, but rather it is mainly an economic deal.

3) As for inactive users, I'm going to wait until mid-September. It's OK that users are taking a break for summer.

4) Sweden may invade Doitsuchihou but they have to use the algorithm.

5) There is no "most/best xxxx in the world" in this game. In fact don't even use the word "world" at all. Think of it as a taboo until at least the 1800s. Even "New World" and "Old World" are highly cautioned.

6) NIE expansion is too fast. In addition to there being a plague there right now, the NIE has neither the resources or military power to expand across the pampas like that. There needs to be an incubation period of military and economic upgrades. For starters, the NIE doesn't even have a port.

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:14, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm #4 (Sweden, Anglo-Germany, Poland vs Japan and China)
Is this correct?? Can someone check it?? And can someone do the chance and result it is too complicated for me to really understandScandinator 12:19, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Sweden

 * close to location of the war:3
 * attackers advantage:1
 * Sweden, Anglo-Germany, Poland: 9
 * country has developed military: 5
 * expansion:0
 * Motive is religious:7
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country does not rule said area: 0
 * chance: 7

3+1+9+5+0+7+10+0+7=42

Japan

 * other side of the world:1
 * Japn, China:6
 * side with greater population: 2
 * country has developed military: 0
 * expansion:0
 * Motive is life or death: 10
 * participating in the war: 10
 * said country has ruled said area for 81-150 years: 4
 * chance: 2

1+6+2+0+0+10+10+4+2=35

Result
42/(42+35)=42/77

42/77-0.5 = 0.045454545

Swedish victory. Sweden annexes 12 pixels of Doitsuchou around Amsterdam.

Discussion
Note I'm using random.org for chance because the declaration of war was really long ago and Japan never really responded to the declaration. If anyone is unhappy with the results, they can feel free to go back and do the chance system the orthodox way. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 19:26, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I have developed my military for 9 turns in the past 15 years not 5 turns onlyScandinator 21:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry if I didn't make it clear but it resets back to zero after major conflicts, and military expansion during conflicts doesn't count. Also, turns that said both the military and economy were expanded, I counted as 1/2. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:15, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Ah well we'll just try again in 15 years...153.107.33.161 00:30, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I tried the formula for chance... Sweden got 7 and japan got 2Scandinator 04:43, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

You did everything right it seems (I didn't check the math myself), you probably should show your work next time so there is no question of whether you are lying or not. Also, you haven't fully annexed Doutsuchihou, only about 4.5%, so you can account for that by calculating the number of pixels of Doutsuchihou and finding the percentage. Let me know if you need any help with that; I can perform those calculations relatively quickly. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I would have showed working but my laptop is REALLY slow so I ran out of time. If you wish I'll upload it. Scandinator 06:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

What about the Commonwealth and Poland? Should we do our own algorithm's for territory east of the Dutch-German border?Zagoria 15:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, do so. @Scandinator you may have won, but chances are you're not going to be annexing the capital and largest city at Amsterdam. Probably somewhere marginal like Frisia. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 15:46, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

News
Deansims has asked me, Bobalugee1940, to take control of his nation because he is gone for a week. You may read the message on my talk page. (-unsigned)

Please don't disrupt the format like that. That's what the talk page is for. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:14, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Interested in Joining
I have wanted to join a map game, and this one seems to be the best. I am assuming that all nations in grey are availbable? If that is correct, then I wish to join as Naples. Must I do anything other than mark that I did so in the list, add a color to the map and create a page for the nation? Also, does Naples control Sicily in this? LurkerLordB 22:47, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I will add my name to the list and create the page, but I won't edit the map until I am sure exactly what the borders will be. LurkerLordB 00:37, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Glad to have you here, good sir. Naples controls Sicily, Italy, and the southern half of Sardinia. There's no need to edit any previous maps, but you're just in time so that you can be on the 1635 Map. It is nice to have someone in Italy, as not many people have played as Italian states. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:51, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

You, or whoever makes the map, can pick the color if you wish. The only problem is that there are not many distinct colors left. Perhaps some combo-thing?LurkerLordB 01:56, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

I don't forsee a problem. Since it's harder to edit combo-colours, we use single colours. We have any shade of brown, maroon, some shades of green, some shades of blue, light pink, or the dark teal of Ethiopia that just went inactive. If you have a preference, go ahead. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:14, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Brown would be good. LurkerLordB 02:22, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

The yellow color is even better LurkerLordB 23:18, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

Who owns Sardinia? It is not listed as a playable nation, so I assume the northern part is owned by Genoa (as Genoa owned Corsica, it makes since it would be them)LurkerLordB 23:20, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

No, Sardinia is a independent country.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:49, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought Genoa owned Sardinia, but I looked back a bit and I guess it was independent after all. My mistake on the map. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:04, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

May I join? looks interesting and it doesn't yet seem to be over. Kunarian 22:32, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

What can be done one turns
On the rules, it said that diplomacy that is not against another nation counts as a zeroth of a turn, therefore, I assume that stating that I accept the treaty with Vietnam is legit?Previously this turn I did diplomacy with another nation (0) and built up the military (.5 or 1, I am still confused) LurkerLordB 23:18, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

build up the military is a full turn and i think that accepting a treaty counts as "diplomacy not against a player nation"--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:51, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Borders
For expanding, do the pixels that are in the borders count as being owned by you, or you opponent? I need to calculate how long it would take to conquer all of Sardinia (because the war is just going to sort of go on until the time it would take to move in piece by piece happens, then it all joins all at once)LurkerLordB 21:02, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Pixels is only for colonial expansion, and Sardinia is not under that category. Thus I think you could conquer Sardinia relatively quickly, seeing that the kingdom is otherwise pretty weak. In fact you could practically just annex it. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:08, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, that's good. By next turn I should have it, that will be a year and a half war (otherwise it would take like 80 years). LurkerLordB 21:16, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Janusary
Janusary's latest antics are starting to get on my nerves. He has lost all connection to plausibility. There's a line you shouldn't cross, and I think he crossed it with his undead Emperor.

Yank 21:32, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Lol, I was just about to post that, but I found that you had beaten me to the punch. I agree. While he has always been rather implausible, he goes beyond the limits of history when he “deifies” the emperor. PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 21:37, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Not really sure what he is doing, but clearly he is speaking metaphorically. I usually can't understand his posts but as long as it doesn't interfere with the game, I don't see a problem. Delusional emperors happen in history. Also, co-vassalage is theoretically possible. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 21:43, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

The Pharoahs of Egypt deified their rulers, by proclaiming them gods on earth. If his people believed in reincarnation, then they could think that the same "God"-emperor ruled over them through many different bodies. As long as it is not a real god-on-earth, I don't see that big a problem. LurkerLordB 21:51, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

He hasn't just deified himself. He specifically stated that Jahangir came back to life.Zagoria 13:25, August 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure he was speaking metaphorically. He said somewhere that romours of his death were created as propaganda and were false. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:32, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Or, like someone posted, it could be an insane imposter. LurkerLordB 20:38, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

Now he came to a new level of implausibility.he now created sidewinder missiles.in 1639.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:09, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe all of the Mughal Empire ought to be annexed by the invaders. LurkerLordB 12:34, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't hate. Chances are, he's losing his government. I did a rough estimate and he will lose about 95% of his land, and keep the area around Delhi or where he wants. But honestly, how would you like it if someone overthrew your government and took 95% of your country? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:02, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * True, I suppose that 95% is good enough. I was looking over previous archives, and it seemed that he used to be a good player. Or was someone else controlling the Mughal Empire before him? Or has he just gone downhill?LurkerLordB 23:49, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

He was prettty much the only one to own the Mughal Empire (besides that one guy's sockpuppet). He hasn't learned anything. I remember him making constant snide replies to anything that harmed his country. At one time he tried to manipulate events to suit his own needs. He hadn't gotten any better in the time between than and now. He just was better at hiding his self-centered attitude during that period. He needs to be defeated in order to learn anything resembilng humility.

Yank 01:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I think he is trying to make things realistic with a crappy leader. There are Francisco Solano Lopezes in history, and with the overthrow of this government he should return to how he used to be. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 03:26, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Now that the Mughal Empire is on the inevitable road to defeat he feels the need to respond to every post affecting him with an insulting and offensive quip. This guy is digging his grave deeper and deeper.

Yank 15:59, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's gotten worse, his posts are now talking about nuclear weapons, ghosts, and his pet cat. LurkerLordB 14:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I vote ban him. I don't like using the banhammer, but this nail needs to be straightened. CrimsonAssassin 14:43, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Should We Ban Janusary?> Yes No

We don't use polls here, because we don't know who is voting. Especially since this should be a mod vote rather than a community vote. Anyway, I left an ultimatum on his talk page. Depending on his response, he might be seeing as much as a 2-month ban. I understand his posts are starting to look schizophrenic but he has shown dedication to the game and otherwise good conduct. Two months should do it easily, and any further infractions could lead to a permanent ban. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 17:21, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

OK, now he just retconned the whole war, saying that the invaders lost because they didn't have adequate supply lines and cooperation with the natives, and took back all of the territory he lost except for a small amount of costal colonies. LurkerLordB 21:55, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I'm in support of one week ban, because clearly he at least heeded my ultimatum, but he still tried to go against the rules by denying losing the war. So we need the approval of three more mods. Mods in favor say aye. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 22:49, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think it really should be longer, but aye aye. CrimsonAssassin 23:34, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Aye.Yank 23:36, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should be longer.Aye.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:43, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Algorhytm: Mughals vs. Hungary/Commonwealth/China/Vietnam/Russia/Sweden
How do we do it? Zagoria suggested making a separate algorythm for each front (Vietnam x Mughals, Hungary x Mughals, as for a expample).

Naples isn't sending anyone to fight, it does not have the power to wage war on the other side of two continents. It is supporting its allies in spirit and "all aid short of war". LurkerLordB 21:17, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

This is gonna be a bit tricky, seeing that none of the said countries actually border the Mughals unless you count Russia. So, the algorithm applies to every country that wishes to take territory or otherwise profit from the Mughals. Everyone else can qualify as a participant, but not have an algorithm. Also, if you cannot create a colony right now, you can't take territory unless you merge it with another colony, or otherwise reduce your number of colonies. Also, since multiple countries will be taking territory, we will use a special formula:

X=Mughal Territory

A=Percent of land taken by first country to invade

B=Percent of land taken by second country to invade

C=Percent of land taken by third country to invade

etc.

Z = (AX+B(X-XA)+C(X-AX-B(X-AX))+D(X-AX-B(X-AX)-C(X-AX-B(X-AX)))…)/(A+B+C+D…)

Territory Yield for A = AZ

Territory Yield for B = BZ

Territory Yield for C = CZ

Territory Yield for D = DZ

etc.

That way the territory distribution is fair without a chance of the entire country being annihilated.

Given that there are 5 players, it will take 72%, or X/(X+2) with X=5, annexation to overthrow the government. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:03, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

dont forget that Kazakhstan(Russian Vassal) is fighting too, although it can count as Russia. Next year I will give Permission to Hungary and the commonwealth to cross into Mughals via the volga-Kazakhstan-Changitistan-Kashmir Route, I dont know what that will do but I hope in improves the territory gained-and it realy reduces the time to get to the capital of Delhi.LxCaucassus 23:21, August 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * That can add another belligerent on your side across the board. So you will have a total of 7 belligerents, and thus need a total of 78% annexation to fully overthrow the government. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:43, August 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ought the war to last longer than one turn? LurkerLordB 00:13, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the algorithm is to determine who wins. You can stretch out the war as long as you see fit. In fact, there may also be multiple algorithms per war. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:56, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Is China withdrawing from the war, now that they are is a civil war?Zagoria 15:52, August 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, China's out. As long as the invasion went well, just divvy up a small coastal area for me. CrimsonAssassin 20:17, August 28, 2011 (UTC)



Thankfully I am now able to use a program to determine the results of the Mughal Wars. The result is, you guys failed to take the necessary amount of territory to overthrow the government. This is because very few of you actually upgraded your military in the given time, or if you did, you didn't dedicate the whole turn. The only person who lost is Russia. The Anti-Mughal coalition will have to decide whether they are going to accept the loss of significant privileges equal in value to the loss of about 3% of Russia, or otherwise bargain with the Mughals for the privileges back. Momentarily I shall release the full amounts of territory everyone is entitled to. In the mean time, everyone please pick a coastal Indian city to use as the capital city for your colony. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:54, August 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Correction:Russia will not lose territory, it will lose part of its Indian colony, but only a small sliver.

The results:


 * Commonwealth: 61800 sq km (1,236 px)
 * Hungary: 58650 sq km (1,173 px)
 * Vietnam: 144150 sq km (2,883 px)
 * China: 73150 sq km (1,463 px)
 * Sweden: 69750 sq km (1,395 px)
 * Russia: Will lose 200 sq km (4 px) of its Indian/Sri Lankan colony

You guys will be able to cut off the Mughals from the sea moderately well, so I suggest everyone pick an Indian city on the coast and then you guys can divide up the territory. I can help with the specific pixel counting if necessary. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:08, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Do this again in 10 years???Scandinator 06:14, August 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * You guys would be too weak for it to be realistic. Sorry I didn't include you in the algorithm, I didn't know you were participating. I'll add you now. Would you want aid from Hanthawaddy for transportation? <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 06:18, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I already picked my part.here it is. 1173 px.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:54, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a slice, only of the coastline centred around OTL Visakhpatnam. Scandinator 08:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

There, Swedish India!!! I think its 1395 px but I could have stuffed upScandinator 08:33, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Matte of fact, 1395px is more than depicted in your map.

Russia has a population of roughly 8 million people, I dont think that the population of the Mughals is higher in this era. Altough I could be wrong.LxCaucassus 18:32, August 29, 2011 (UTC)



I'll just have 48000 sq km of Mughal coastline north of the Swedish colony.Zagoria 13:12, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'll get these done. And Lx, I'm pretty sure from my research, at the time, Russia was a relative marginal "wasteland" on the edge of Europe while the Mughal population was similarly dense to how India is today, with probably around 50 million at minimum. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:12, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Russia had a population of 6 million in OTL. Add Kazakhstan, changitistan and Lithuania and it adds up to approx 8 million, but ya, mabe you were right about the population...it was 170 million in 1690(although i gota say mughalistan was bigger than in ATL)LxCaucassus 02:04, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I'll take the portion of Mughal territory in between the Hungarian portion and the Swedish claim.

Yank 02:35, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Papal States to republic
Huy Guys i took the Papal State and i transformed it in a Repubblic....now i've attacked Venice,with religious porpous to slowly eradicate heresy (without force but with economical taxes on non catholics)and economical to conquer the venice's port and acquire their fleet,the Venice's fleet was permitted to continue to act and trade freely and with the economical help of the Pope,but they are subdued to the Pope,also Venice is full of catholics that won't pay taxes,and so there should not be any rebellion against the main power,plus the force of the Holy Roman Repubblic was concentrated on the attack of Venice,leaving one third of the army at home,this should complete the conquere without too much difficult in one year(tomorrow) -User:2.198.167.78

-The Pope is still in charge, at least symbolically, right? Because if not, Benvolio II is going to go crazy... LurkerLordB 00:33, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ehh, maybe hold off, because you've already defeated Genova and eradicated Sardinia, and that would be pretty taxing on a military used to isolation. Also, if you're going to be a republic, make sure you have a good philosophical background this early in the game. According to my reading, early modern Europeans were more interested in constitutional monarchy, and probably less so in Catholic countries such as Naples. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:34, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not the Papal states guy, I don't know who he is. He just didn't sign his post, and I responded first to him, making it look like I replied.. I'll put his IP behind his posts on the talk page so everyone knows what his posts are. LurkerLordB 00:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Situation

 * Could someone explain the current political situation to me? I am still not fully integrated, as you may call it, into the wiki yet, from my long, long wikibreak. Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 00:37, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Anglo-Germany is Allied with Naples which is allied to Sweden and Vietnam. Vietnam is trying to support the Chinese government due to a civil war, while Hathawaddy is supporting the rebels. The Mamluks and Ethiopians are entering a period of decline. Everyone who can is declaring war on the Mughal Empire due to its King's insane actions recently. The Papal states have united in one "Republic". Joseon is having some sort of dispute wit China recently. The Incas are expanding in South America, Naples and the Papal States/Holy Roman Republic are expanding in Italy, the colonial powers expand everywhere (except Russia has been forced out of part of India). LurkerLordB 01:00, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * LurkerbordB the Pope is still in charge,hw is some kind of king-first minister of the Repubblic,right now i don't know why in the Map'sgame the Holy Roman Repubblic is still gray and Venice is still indipendent....2.198.167.78
 * Sweden and Anglo-Germany control all of Russia's sea trade. Sweden has reunified Scandinavia. Hanthawaddy recently destroyed Vietnam. The Mughals are getting owned. The Ottomans and Mamluks are inactive. Naples and the Papal States are allying. Russia and Hungary crushed Poland. Anglo-Germany unified Germany. Incas have regained their old empire and are taking South America. Russia is expanding into Siberia. China is in a revolution. Japan has just collapsed. Scandinator 10:11, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * AND the Holy Roman Repubblic conquered Venice2.198.167.78
 * Forget about northeast Passage?LxCaucassus 22:57, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Vietnam is still around. CrimsonAssassin 22:06, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * And Russia made a Northeast passage in the Arctic ocean so trade with Asia is faster and basicaly made Asia somewhat dependant on Russia for sea trade to Europe.LxCaucassus 22:57, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Note the northeast passage is difficult, and it would probably fluctuate, and only allow trade during the summer. So I wouldn't say Asia is dependent. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:16, August 30, 2011 (UTC)

Koch icebrakers sailing in front of tradeships make the route traversable in the winter, i believe i posted that earlier. look up koch-it is the first ever successful icebraker-made by Russians before the game began. That is one og the reasons that i offered selling koches to hanthawady so the russian navy doesnt have to worry about paying sailors to escort Mon Ships(who are the most frequent in the area).LxCaucassus 01:52, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

China also managed to get on good terms with the Ottomans a long while back and the Silk Road is open. CrimsonAssassin 01:13, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

The route wasn't fully navigated until 1878 IRL. Also, even with today's receding icecaps, the ice latches on to the northernmost part of Russia even in summertime. Note "Icebreakers are needed to keep trade routes open where there are either seasonal or permanent ice conditions. Icebreakers are expensive to build and very expensive to run, whether the icebreaker is powered by gas turbines, diesel-electric powerplant or nuclear energy. They are uncomfortable to travel in on the open sea: almost all of them have thick, rounded keels, and with no protuberances for stability, they can roll even in light seas. They are also uncomfortable to travel in when breaking through continuous thick ice due to constant motion, noise, and vibration." Wikipedia. The northern sea route only cuts off 5,000 miles from Hanthawaddy-Toeh Ngoa Nyoing, probably more from Joseon to Europe, but still it's not dominance. Haha trust me it affects my country too. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:27, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

The Russian ones were wooden i wouldnt say that they were expensive...at all, except mabe feeding and paying crew. Wood and leather are found everywhere. These boats(koches) are a bit different than Modern icebrakers. lets just put it at Russia has one of the most convenient sea routes from Asia to Europe. And this alone means that Anglogermany and Sweeden dont control all of Russia's sea Trade, Just the America/Africa Trade sea trade. The Russians are pretty much independant from sea trade with Asia.LxCaucassus 21:50, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Industrializing
Okay, so here's the deal. I know I have been a bit inactive lately, and i likely not be fully active until summer, but I will do my best to maintainthis game. Within a century, people will start wanting to industrialize and I will probably squarely turn down requests for some reason or other. Most of us are aware that Britain was the initiator of the Industrial Revolution, and it spread throughout the world. What it did not do is spring up independently in multiple places. So I have deliberated and decided to pick a single location for the start of the Industrial Revolution. My choice is - and I hope the mods will agree with me - Russia. User:LxCaucassus has shown an extensive amount of detail and plausibility in his posts and a large amount of research we often overlook. He is active almost every day, and he is an active and friendly participant who can use his vast knowledge of Russia and technology to improve our community game. In character, Russia has already explored many forms of technology, and thus risen to a major power. Russia has a large colonial empire from which to draw resources. And it is undergoing a rapid upheaval which sets the stage for a new order.

If LxCaucassus chooses to accept, Russia will take the following steps:
 * Focus on accumulating territory for resources alone.
 * Make a paced transition from cottage industries to the introduction of mass production.
 * Make small technological innovations over time.

He may begin industrializing by 1700 with a major technological innovation of choice. Other parts of the world will begin industrializing based on a timeframe which I am yet to lay out. Other than that, I give Lx full freedom and creativity to do what he wants. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:48, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Congrats, Lx. You certainly earned it! CrimsonAssassin 17:37, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Its very different from what happened in real life... but still plausible due to the changes in the timeline, so I think i is a good idea. I'd assume it would start in western Russia where there are cities. LurkerLordB 21:05, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

I like this proposition. My first and foremost goal for the time being is to conquersiberia and plase a stable and Russia-friendly governement in Mughal territory. The siberia paret is due to the fact that many Russian Leaders Wanted to control it in OTL and the Fact that siberia is by far the largest forest in the world...wich means Resources Galore! You guys picked a very good time for the industrial Revolution to begin because it is in the time of Peter the Great's Rule-the man that transformed Russia into a Modern European Nation.I will try to incorporate his reforms into the Process of Industrializing, and mabe add a phew as the Russian navy Started with Ivan the Great...starting with the profound study of the classical world that happend around this time. Hero's engine will become the inspiration for the Russian Steam piston engine. Steam started the revolution in OTL... I guess its logical it starts with the same technology in ATL aswell. LxCaucassus 01:01, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute! The only algorithm we had had the Mughals defeating Russia and taking part of their colony! You can't take Delhi and proclaim that you won the war anyway! Plus, Janusary isn't inactive, so you can't exactly make him a puppet state! The only reason I didn't say anything earlier was because I thought you were going to lose the battle of Delhi, as per the results of the algorithm!Zagoria 02:55, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Im not making them a puppet at all. im just making them like russia for restoration, and have nothing to do with them after that. as you would recall, there were 2 russian fronts, the northern and southern the southern was the siege of ivangrad... that fron had much less men and was much more prone to loss... and i never gained any territory... I lost territory in Sri Lanka, not in Changatai or whatnot.LxCaucassus 03:06, September 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * You lost the war, meaning you don't have any power over the Mughals. I kinda gave you a freebie, because you had an existing colony in India, but otherwise you would have been forced to lose territory or otherwise pay for the war. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:20, September 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems unrealistic that the Mughals could divide their forces to fight 6 different nations at once and still be able to defeat any of them. For the population thing, you probably should have divided the Mughal empire 6-ways, instead of having the full might of the empire fight each foe individually. LurkerLordB 16:52, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Not necessary, because each belligerent got 21 or 24 points for strength, and that is a huge advantage. The only reason anyone lost was because no one bothered to update their military. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 18:02, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Papal States Guy's Question

 * I don't understand why in the official map of Principia Moderni Venice is still indipendent,the Papal states conquered it before that the map was modificated.


 * 1. You need to put your seperate questions on their new section, not just add them on to an unrelated topic
 * 2. You need to sign your talk page posts by adding 4 ~ at the end
 * 3. You can only found two colonies in any 50 years, you are adding three (New Jersey, Tunis, Somalia) when you can only found 2, you need to get rid of one first.
 * 4. A spell checking device may be useful, many browsers have one.
 * LurkerLordB 16:50, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Algorithm Updates/Civility
A couple things. First of all, there is no room in this game for rudeness, spite, hatefulness of any sort. I am not going to name names, but seriously, there is no excuse. We are trying to attract people to this game, and anyone who posts rude or hateful comments makes it worse for everyone. That's why we have fair voting, mods, and algorithms to solve conflicts. If you're going to simply write hate to someone, or tell them they're not wanted, etc. do it on their talk page, but don't clog up the game. Understood?

And I'm proposing some amendments to the rules. Seeing as we may be getting into another conflict, I thought I would edit the rules, which might not make full sense. This is not ex post facto, but here:

1) A country in civil disarray cannot take territory from another country, but slows expansion by incoming parties by 2/3. This includes colonial expansion.

2) Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.

3) (This is random) A country may loan 50 sq km or 100 sq km of their main territory to another country for use as a colony, per turn, although this factors into the receiver's colonial expansion. I guess we'll do a community vote, and if the rules pass by 2/3 majority, then they're good.

4) We've already partially applied this, so I'm just putting it out there, if X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.

5) As for espionage. All secrets are secrets.  How it's going to work is you can apply for espionage on this page (in a designated Espionage section), and write three or more countries you wish to have espionage into.  One will be selected randomly behind the scenes, and when a country states they have secretly performed an action, you can ask whether your espionage matches the country that had the secret action.  After successful espionage, a new country is chosen out of the three.  You may change your three countries at any time, but it changes the randomly selected country every time a country is changed.
 * For example: Portugal wants to have espionage into Spain, Morocco, and Savoy.  Behind the scenes, it is determined randomly that Morocco is the selected country.  Five years later, Spain has secret troop movements into Portugal.  Portugal asks whether espionage was successful, and the results are negative.  However, Morocco announces secret support for Spain in the upcoming war.  Upon asking the result of the espionage, Portugal finds it is successful, and the new randomly-selected country is Savoy.  However, Portugal asks to change Savoy out for France.  This changes the result, and instead, Spain is selected.

And trust me, these rules, if applied to the next war, would work against me, so no complaining about personal gain. <small style="color:#004400">Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:19, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Supporters

 * I agreeZagoria 13:19, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --Collie Kaltenbrunner 14:52, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --LurkerLordB 20:48, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * --Flag_of_South_Korea.pngang- (Talk | Contribs) 20:50, September 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sí, señor. CrimsonAssassin 00:47, September 7, 2011 (UTC)

Inactivity
How many turns have to be missed to be declared inactive? Because I just restored Altair000 to being active since he only missed 3 turns, which I think is too small a number to be declared inactive, especially declared inactive to the extent that someone can freely take over the nation. LurkerLordB 22:09, September 7, 2011 (UTC)