Forum:Help With "A Violent Peace"

Given that my previous Point of Divergence was too ASB, I am requesting help with my ATL, A Violent Peace. I also would like to delete the articles I had for it. so if someone could tell me how, that would be great. The timeline I want is somewhere in the 1900s, where an incredibly influential person is able to begin a slow, in some cases painful process of changing the way people think, as in racism, sexism, etc. What I am looking for is not Utopia, but improvement on OTL. Also, where the UN is more effective, aswell, but no to the point where no one will vote on the measures.

There could be the Axis winning WWI, but that is all too common, and it was for colonialism, if I'm not mistaken. Napoleonic victories are also common, but I doubt that would lead to advancements in the fields of human rights and such.

What are some suggestions?

Canuck2012 (talk) 22:33, July 18, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Really, there's no way that the UN could be made more effective without infringing on "national rights" - and there's no way that any power would let that happen.

Was the "Central Powers" in WWI, not the Axis.

Really, for it to be faster than otl really isn't possible. Heck, that it happened so fast otl was unlikely - and we are still seeing the impact of that one today.

Lordganon (talk) 23:04, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

As for deleting the articles, just add the template and it'll get done. Lordganon (talk) 23:04, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

That is true. I never really thought about it, but things have moved very quickly, compared to say centuries and millenia.

But what PoDs exist for the early 20th century? The Central Powers winning is overdone, the Axis winning is overdone. I'd like a PoD before 1950.

Could China reforming after the Boxer Rebellion have pretty far-reaching consequences? What about a reformed Russia?

24.222.254.109 00:09, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

For the outcome you desire, there's not really any possible PoD.

The Boxers and Russia in that manner could have far reaching consequences, but... not anywhere near in the manner you desire.

Lordganon (talk) 00:50, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think any PoD could really progress change in a considerable way, unless JFK survived the assassination. ~Can

Without the "boost" his assassination gave to Johnson, it would likely actually hurt things in that direction. Lordganon (talk) 01:02, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting. Most people say had he not been assassinated, there would have been more progress.

How about this for a first PoD:

The Boxers before the PoD had two aims: Destroy the Qing and Banish the Foreigners. After much hesitation, Empress Dowager Cixi decided NOT to support them, and instead backed foreign interests, as a political move.

OTL, after Imperial support, they went solely for ridding China of foreign influence. But without that support, they continued to fight the Empire.

The movement continued to spread and by the midyear, China was in full-out revolt. The Boxers took Beijing, splitting China into two halfs. Fighting continued until 1902, when the Qing fled to Taiwan.

The Boxers set up a republic, but democratic it wasn't. It was super-nationalist and foreigners were rounded up and mass-muredered.

An international force declared war on China, taking over Guangzhou, Shanghai, Hangzhou, and Dagu. The Boxers sued for peace, and apologized for the atrocities, signing yet another Unequal Treaty. The government than began to extend rights to foreigners, and China declined even further.

In 1905, a group of people dissatisfied with the position China was in, began a series of revolts throughout the country.

In Chongqing, the riots escalated, and surprisingly, the army in the region aided the rebels, triggering the Chinese Civil War.

The revolutionaries were led by Sun Yat-sen and Song Jiaoren. The victories in and around Chongqing caused the collapse of the Boxer Regime, and the creation of the Republic of China.

Thoughts?

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:32, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Most of the damage and deaths were because the "Empress" supported the Boxers and had the armies join them. The Imperial Army would likely destroy them here.

The powers at hand would not do such a thing - the "Open Door Policy" - and would not be anywhere nearly that quick.

Boxers were really only in Northern China.

The Qing wouldn't flee to Taiwan - not only is it a "no" in general, but it's also put of Japan by this point. Manchuria, or bust.

Sun and Song would not have survived the Boxers - and they certainly would not have been at that location.

Lordganon (talk) 01:45, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oops. Forgot Japan had Taiwan, cause of the First Sino-Japanese War.

Okay, the Boxer Rebellion is a complete and total failure. Howeve, foreign influence continues to suckle China dry, causing further dissent. Sun and Song form the Tongmenghui earlier, and in uprisings in wherever-they-were, overthrew the Qing in 1905.

Canuck2012 (talk) 01:54, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

No rebellion would be that fast - and foreign powers may well be willing to help suppress it.

Lordganon (talk) 02:08, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

So if the Boxers are defeated in 1900, the Xinhai Revolution will still take place in 1911-1912? Is there any way that the revolution could take place earlier on?

Canuck2012 (talk) 14:25, July 19, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

If the Empress sides with the "foreigners," bet on the revolution occurring even later. Lordganon (talk) 05:38, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

But what could speed up the Xinhai Revolution?

And on another note, if Tsar Nicholas II, following the 1905 Revolution, gave up more power to the State Duma, could the Russian Revolution be prevented? Or is that just something that'll happen inevitably?

Canuck2012 (talk) 17:51, July 20, 2012 (UTC)Canuck2012

Not much could speed it up. Doubt anything, really, could do it.

The Tsar actually did give them a lot of power - in theory. He just took it back within a couple of years.

The Revolution was not inevitable. If he had kept the reforms in place he'd have been fine.

Really, there are many, many factors that if removed from that equation would have prevented the Revolution.

Lordganon (talk) 23:03, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the Russian Revolution could occur, then end swiftly. There were two major points this could have happened:

A: Stalin could have been killed. Anywhere anytime. He was always in the front lines. One lucky shot from the Whites could've ended the Revolution right there.

B: If the train carrying Trotsky to the signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk had crashed, the Central Powers would not cease attacking Russia, and without having the assurance that the combat would only be between Whites and Reds, the Whites and Reds would be fighting each other and the Central Powers, and both sides would be weakened and the Reds would collapse in the end due to having to have so many defenses.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:48, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

...I did say that there was many factors.

And the second wouldn't do it - someone else would go.

Lordganon (talk) 02:50, July 21, 2012 (UTC)