Talk:Principia Moderni IV (Map Game)

Algorithms
Algorithms—the hard part of map games. This is where all of them are placed. It is mandatory to follow all the rules and strictly follow the procedure, rules, and computation of an algorithm, both of which can be seen here. You can see every algorithm below.

It's vital that you use exactly this format when writing or computing an algorithm, as it helps organization tremendously.

Formatting
Name of War (Years of War) [Use Heading 4]

Front Name [Only use this if there is more front in the war] [Heading 5]


 * Year
 * Pre-War Stage
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Population:
 * War Exhaustion:
 * Casus Belli:
 * Government:
 * Battle Stage
 * (Battle or Siege Name)
 * Side I Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Side II Name (Attacking or Defending)
 * Result:
 * Army/Navy Size:
 * Location:
 * Great General:
 * Blunder:
 * Attrition:
 * Final Stage:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Side I Name
 * Cities Occupied:
 * Result:
 * Overall Result:

Discussion [Heading 5]

1430 Coptic Revolt

 * Pre-War
 * Coptic Christians: 9.2
 * Population: 0.2 (100,000)
 * Motive: 6 (rebellion)
 * Government: 3 (warlord)
 * Caliphate: 17
 * Population: 8 (4 million)
 * Motive: 2 (rebellion)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Battle
 * Coptic Christains: 4.6 + bludner
 * Military: 0.6 (2,000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Caliphate: 7 + blunder
 * Military: 3 (10,000)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Results
 * Difference: 2.4
 * Coptics: 6.8 (casualties: 960)
 * Caliphate: 16 (casualties: 800)
 * Result: Caliphate wins 235%, putting down the revolt

Abbasid Invasion of Alwah (1432)

 * Pre-War
 * Abbasid Caliphate: 19.6
 * Population: 7.6 (3,800,000)
 * Motive: 5 (religious)
 * Government: 7 (theocracy)
 * Kingdom of Alwah: 12.5
 * Population: 1.5 (750,000) (just my guess)
 * Motive: 7 (existential historical land)
 * Government: 4 (oligarchy)
 * Battle of Dongola
 * Abbasids: 12.62 + bludner
 * Military: 9.12 (30,000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Alwah: 8.5 + blunder
 * Military: 4.5 (15,000)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder:
 * Results
 * Difference: 4.12
 * Alwah: 8.38 (casualties: 12,000)
 * Caliphate: 16 (casualties: 4,000)
 * Result: Caliphate wins 221%, annexing Alwah

Totonacapan Unification War [1431]

 * Pre-War
 * Pro Unifacation Allies: (Mayapan, Totonacapan) 11,5
 * Population: 4,5 (Mayapan ~ 2.000.000 population, Totonacapan ~250.000 population)
 * Motive: 3 (War for a crown/Historical enemy)
 * Government: 4 (Council)
 * Cempoala: 9,8
 * Population: 0,8 (80.000)
 * Motive: 6 (Existential threat + Defending the Crown)
 * Government: 3 (Tribal)
 * Siege of Cempoala
 * Unificationists: 9,7 + blunder
 * Military: 5,7 (19.000)
 * Location: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Cempoala: 4.45 + blunder
 * Military: 0.45 (1,500)
 * Locaiton: 4 (besieging a city)
 * Blunder: IDK MODS
 * Results
 * Difference: 5.25
 * Cempoala: 4.55 (casualties: decimated)
 * Unificationists: 10,5 (casualties: 350)
 * Result: Unificationists wins 230%, Totonacapan annexes Cempoala

Discussion
Mods pls check this.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   02:12, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

Current Map
1430



Changes to Current Map
'''Add additions, complaints, or changes under here. If your changes were removed, it's because they were added to the next version. '''

Leaves of Absence
If you plan on leaving the wiki for a while and will not be able post in the game for a while, please leave a message here telling us for how long you will be leaving and whether or not you have someone else you would like to play as your nation.

I will be leaving today (thursday) and will return on sunday. It will be very nice if someone does my turns for me. - Scarlet Outlaw

AM will be posting as Milan for the next week, as I will be out of town without my laptop or phone. Thank you, Andreas! 22:39, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

I'll be on holiday for 4-5 days, so I'll leave control of Pskov with Thewolvesden for the time being. EDIT: Seems my laptop is breaking down, battery dead and one of the two hinges is destroyed. Unknown when it will be fixed. Supergamer1 (talk) 13:10, July 24, 2016 (UTC)

I have to break off my Pacific Northwest trip due to a bronchitis. I need to fly back to Vienna and I need people to post for me and the guys I promised to post for, Rex and Super. AM, the King of the Banat (talk) 06:45, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

I could do that Andy, just tell me what should i post on chat.   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   11:36, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

I am dealing with some issues IRL and the Past few days have told me that the likelyhood of me being able to post untill at least monday will be hampered significantly.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:48, August 5, 2016 (UTC) I will be gone canping from August 7-August 13, if someone could post as Denmark that would be grest. -KawaiiKame.

Due to my obvious over-involvement in the game (leading to some bad cases of bias), I am taking a week off from the game. Please, someone (probably Rimp, I trust him the most) leave me a message on my talk page if my nation is critically needed at any time -Oh, I didn't mean to push that button! † Oh, well leave a message I guess  23:24, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

As it stands today i found out some very bad medical news concerning one of my family memebers and i will be withdrawing from PMIV on these grounds. I will probably not be on as much but might still be around as i work on my TL and such. Feudy McPlagueface (talk)

Alright, THAT IS IT! I officially quit. I want nothing to do with PMIV and I much less want anything to do with any of the moderators involved and their rubbish. You know that? If you think I am arse, then you NOW made me one. For all I care, this game better be dead by the time I come back. And honestly, hopefully, I avoid this game like the plague and any subsequent games. Now, I am honestly done. D-O-N-E. Done! So, honestly, I can at best give you the mother of all insults if I could come up with one. Lousy wankers! Now, to the rest of you, I suggest you do the same. So, if anyone wants to boycott this game, feel free to. I know I will. Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 03:24, August 14, 2016 (UTC)

General Discussion
I just noticed the Roman Empire's post for this year and it seems the player is ignoring what happened when I was the Roman Empire.Such as the fact that in growing fear of Papism we cut funding the Catholic ones when earlier the Romans were reconciliating with the Catholics. Weird. --The Epic Dragon (talk) 17:43, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Still possible to join?
Hi. I missed the start of the game due to injuries (wasn't able to use my PC because of it), so just wanted to know if it was still possible to join the game. Zamarak500 (talk) 02:57, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

It is still possible to join the game! It's never too lae. -KawaiiKame

New Reference Maps?
Can we get some more reference maps, specifically for south america and central america? -Nova

I fully agree on this proposal. Also, on the reference map of India, there seems to be more states than on the signup list for South Asia, and no sign of Delhi? Could we have a more labeled version of that?The Guardian of Forever (talk) 02:57, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, reference maps of Central and South America are dearly needed. Cour *talk* 23:32, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

We need some reference maps over here. [North-Central-South America]   Ungern von Sternberg   A man's GREATEST joy is crushing his enemies   01:39, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Am I a Vassal?
Ok, can someone tell me if the Duchy of Athens (which I'm playing) is a vassal? Cause I got my post cancelled because I was said to be a vassal. However, when I read the list of nation, the Duchy of Athens is independent, although Athen is a vassal. I'm confuse, so if someone could help me on that, it would be great. Zamarak500 (talk) 07:11, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yes the Duchy of Athens is a Vassal of Genoa, the mods jus haven't updated the nation list so that is why Athens is still on there. -Oct

So Can I still play them or I need to chang esince they are vassals (and I fucked up when chosing my nation)? Zamarak500 (talk) 03:50, August 13, 2016 (UTC)

Yes I listed some condtions on your tlak page.

Concentrations
The Concentration system is new to Pm4. In this system, nations will either pick a concentration between the Army or the Navy, as no nations, with some extreme exceptions, could afford both at this period in time. How it will work is this:
 * 1) Nations will pick a concentration, assuming they have a choice. Nations that are landlocked can only pick Army, while nations like Genoa or OTL Venice can only pick Navy. You will need to recive mod approval for which ever you pick
 * 2) Your concentration can be officially changed every 30 years, although the mods may change it via event depending on the actions of your nations or wars you get involved in. An example of this would be something along the lines of the Spanish Armada. After a destruction like that, Spain would have to switch from Naval to Army because its prized navy was destroyed. Events like that can and will force changes in your concentraction.
 * 3) Your concentration will give you a 10% boost in the respective algorithim as long as it is changed without mod event.
 * 4) Simply add it to the table below to declare it (Add more rows if needed)
 * 5) If the cell with your concentration is green, that means you are currently getting the bonus. If it is red it was forced to change by a mod event. If it is gray it was never approved in the first place.

EDIT:Since there was some confusion on chat, I will explain. In AP Euro one of the thigns we discussed was what led to the rise of France and England as two of the dominant powers in Europe, and what made the two nations different. One of the things brought up is how even France, which during the rise of nation states, was among the richest and most powerful nations in Europe and the world. However, even they could not afford a powerful army and navy, so they where forced to choose between the two. France picked their army, and England picked their navy. Both nations had capable Armies and Navies, but the French navy was noticably weaker than the English navy and the English army was noticably weaker than the French Army.  This doesn't mean you can't develop both , but at this time, nations focused on one, often at expense of the other.

Explanations of lack of Approval
Feel free to dispute it in a civil manner, and if it gets out of hand you will get a three day game ban.
 * Benin
 * While I understand West Africa had a history of ship building, I find in highly unlikely that, at this point in time, your nation would allow its Land Based power to take a back seat to Naval based power. ~Edge
 * Burgandy
 * Same situation as above, Burgundy doesn't have really any reason to focus on its navy. I understand Flanders gives you acess to the sea but by the same vein, the bulk of your nation is land locked. ~Edge

Discussion
The reason I made burgundy navy focused is because it's set a new focus on its maritime economy by way of the low country possessions, already wealthy trade cities on their own. It's been expanding its merchant fleet these past few years, and when there's a large merchant fleet, a sizable navy is needed to maintain its merchants safety. Since the income from the low country territories is quite substantial, safeguarding the sources of that income would be a reasonable course of action, hence, naval focus. I am that guy (talk)

Ok I will accept that response. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

I decided on the naval focus given that Benin's army is the largest in West Africa and the nation has no major enemies on its borders to contend with. Given that the Oba has the last say on all military affairs, he can easily define the needs of the nation's defenses now that Oyo (Benin's only real enemy) is gone. Benin has jungles on both sides, two weak kingdoms to its north, and nothing but water to its south. As the Oba knows of the wider world around Benin, and does not trust Mali with trade with Morocco and North Africa, using the sea route Benin discovered would have been the most realistic choice for the nation, securing the trade needs of the empire. The army is strong, but not needed for the foreseeable future. Focusing on the sea is the only rational choice for Benin at this time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:55, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Can you explain where you got those ship designs from? I looked online for historical West African ships and found nothing of that size.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:50, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

There is a Nigerian forum which pulled together the research on traditional West African ship designs here. I based the designs of the Benin vessels off of that information, as well as the information that states such as Mali and Benin had sailing vessels for trade along the Niger River, while Mali itself had ships not unlike those in North Africa and Iberia. Given Mali used the Niger for trade with the south, Benin would no doubt have routinely witnessed these vessels firsthand coming down the river, and learned from their designs and operation. Further, an excerpt from the Journal of African History states that African war canoes were rather massive at 80 ft in length and 7-8 ft wide and typically had sails for navigation. Also, they had to be deep to carry 100+ men, their food, equipment, sleeping mats, and weapons so as to prevent capsizing ("...sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats." –Journal of African History). Such vessels like these here have been built for ages in West Africa (the latter image showing a traditional shipbuilder), and were typically equal to are larger than vessels such as the caravel, which itself was typically about 40-50 ft long. These vessels here were actually built for deep-water seafearing and are rather large in size, and their designs have not deviated from those of the past. Though these modern designs use motors, in the past sails would have been present on them. Thus, it would not have been to difficult based on the knowledge possessed at the time to increase the vessels in terms of size and depth, as the knowledge was fairly common for the West African kingdoms of that time. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 03:30, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I saw those designs on the actual website that you mentioned earlier, but the main question I have is where you are getting the size. You mention yourself that these vessels could manage 100 or so men, but I question the notion that you are able to build ships with five times that number or the motivation to do so. If you could provide some sort of proof in those issues that would be good.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 21:57, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

Can you add the Chimu Empire, and give us concentration on Army Building? -Nova

I've switched to army since it will be easier to get it passed and less controversial. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 19:30, July 31, 2016 (UTC)

I've added Mogadishu with naval focus, can some mod approve this? - Fallacyman (talk)

I added the Majapahit with a naval focus. Any moderators to approve? Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 14:16, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Can someone add the Wichita as army focused? -Da Kaiser (talk) 18:56, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

Mod Elections of 8/11/2016
Hi all. We have decided to have mod elections for a new moderator. Now the three canidates in question are Callum, Cour, and Nic, and they where decided from a list of 9 possible canidates selected by the mods.

To Vote, you need a google account. Either make one or use an existing one. If this is a problem reach out to me and we will talk. You will use this link.

The way voting works is simple. You rank the canidates based on your prefrence. Only ONE will be chosen as mod, so you need to rank them as your  first, second, or third choice. If you select two first choices, your vote will be thrown out. Every First choice gets a canidate three points, every second gets a canidate two points, and every third gets a canidate one point. This is to avoid a plurality.

Any questions approch me in chat or on my talk page. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL.

EDIT: We will use STV as it is more accurate. #BRINGBACK THESQUIRREL

String of negative mod events
'''After the last couple of years of Benin's internal instability, lack of charismatic leadership, and crushing military defeat to the Songhai, the Kuzir religion begins to distabilize with 60% of the former empire converting to Islam (mostly under Songhai's control), a remaning 25% staying with the Kuzir religion (making a majority in the core of the empire), and the rest returning to the African traditional polytheism (mixed within the core and northern regions). Fearing the lack of popular support, the clerics among the regency council pressures the adolescent Oba to officially abolish the Kuzir religion and return to absolute rule, in hopes of restoring order.'''

Just make my game a "little difficult" as MP said, huh? Just admit, you are talking out of the bottom half of your body and making up excuses to make these negative events stick. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:22, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) "...Benin's internal instability..." Which you caused. You killed off the young, healthy Oba for no reason, and sparked an unrealistic rebellion during a regency over a 12-year old who wasn't old enough to rule as the source. The people would never rise up over a minor unfit to rule yet. Also, you have a group of people conquered by Songhai decide that the nation that improved their lives was worse than the nation that marched in and violently oppressed them.
 * 2) "...lack of charismatic leadership..." How are Prince Uwaifiokun (the man who opened Benin's view of the world), Okpara Maduka (the man who explored that world), and Mohammed Benken (a great military leader who saved Benin) not popular or charismatic leaders?
 * 3) "...crushing military defeat to the Songhai..." Songhai exploited a rebellion in Benin to declare independence, and was destroyed the following year. How as that a "crushing military defeat"?
 * 4) "Fearing the lack of popular support..." From the people who think God saved them from defeat by multiple enemies, and point to the three aforementioned men as saints for saving them?
 * 5) "...the clerics among the regency council pressure the adolescent Oba to officially abolish the Kuzir religion and return to absolute rule..." Why would the clergy want the religion that sustains them abolished? How did the 16-year old become Oba when he is not yet old enough to rule? What makes you think that Uwaifiokun would allow that when he and the warriors support the religion? Why would the people who see the Oba as the leader of their faith (in OTL and ATL) want him to destroy his own religion? And as a theocracy, the Oba is by default an absolute ruler, making the clergy's reasoning either ignorant or completely retarded.

Not a mod or anything, but to be fair, Viva has made some very good points - it would be very illogical for the Kuzir clergy to demand to the leader of the Kuzir faith to abolish the Kuzir religion. That's utter nonsense. However, it is plausible that several high-ranking people discontent with the ruling family could trigger a succession crisis over an heir too young to rule or to understand the implications of such a conflict. ~Tim

Exactly. Only thing is that those high-ranking naysayers were removed in the modded rebellion two years prior to this nonsense. Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 05:22, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

That rebellion makes absolutely no sense. All of the afformentioned causes have been solved years ago, or just happen out of nowhere Erizium (talk) 10:59, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

All I can say is that Viva is being targeted through Mod Events a lot. Like.. a lot and there isn't even a genuine explanation behind it. Lets see

I can see some valid points in the above complaints. I definitely agree with Tim that the idea of the Kuzir clergy pressuring the Oba to abolish their own religion seems somewhat absurd (I always personally had an issue with the Kuzir religion just literally being made up one day and imposed on a whole state, but that's unrelated and canon anyway). So I think that bit at least needs to be removed. I can see how a religion created from scratch 15 years ago could quickly lose supporters, especially after the death of its charismatic founder and some internal instability. Now, as to the plausibility of past events, keeping in mind Rule 3, anything before 1428 (or 1429, I guess, depending on the construction of the phrase "two turns") should be deemed canonical. I can, however, see how this run of events looks like "targeting" or some such. I can also see how, what with the very fast pace of social change in Benin, some internal division would not be unwarranted. I would like to see the replies to the above complaints. Callumthered (talk) 13:05, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * On Turn 1427, the Mods killed off Viva's Oba for no reason at all, who was seemingly perfectly healthy as Viva has mentioned. The very same Mod Event then established a regency to control the state whilst Ministers and Generals fought to expand their influence at court. A reasonable Mod Event, excluding the shady sudden death of a young ruler.
 * On Turn 1428, officers and priest fearful for their life suddenly staged a revolt because they didn't like the regency and wanted the 12 year old controlling the state. This doesn't even make sense and it sounds almost as if whoever is writing these Events is adamant on destabilizing Vivas Empire by hook or by crook. The previous Mod Event established a regency and promoted infighting amongst nobles. Viva responded by empowering Prince Regent and stamping out on the disloyal nobles in order to restore stability which seems as a smart move. Somehow that resulted in priests and officers becoming fearful that the stability was a threat to them, and somehow this attracted the military and urban classes. Wow.. like .. wow. I wouldn't have complained if the Mod Event had stated something along the lines of "The nobles keen on restoring their influence in the regency council, hoping to remove XYZ Prince Regent stage a revolt" or anything even close to that. But no, the priests want the stable regency removed so that a 12 year old who doesn't have a clue how to govern starts to rule. Tell me, who exactly in Benin gains from a 12 year old ruling the nation? No one but the enemies of Benin and Kuzirism. If only the enemies of Benin benefit from it, why would the urban and military classes revolt? It doesnt add up
 * On Turn 1429, the rebellion turned from one that wanted a 12 year old to govern the state into one with religious and ethnic elements. Good thing the Events are making sense atleast, yet there is so much left out. Lets see, somehow a random local with the name of an otl future Emperor becomes Songhais ruler? What? So basically, all the other major families, religious leaders and military commanders in Songhai just decide to hand control to some most likely lowborn guy named Sonni Ali cause why not? What further makes little sense is that this Sonni Ali is suddenly a great politician and military strategist. Its almost as if they just wanted the rebels to have a +45 in the algo so they decided to magically make a random guy a Great General. Yet surprisingly, Viva isn't allowed to have a Great General and the one that Viva did have awhile ago was killed off prematurely.. I guess we now know why he was killed off so suddenly.
 * On Turn 1430, well Vivas already mentioned that year so I don't have to
 * What he said ^ -Bozistanball
 * I agree with Rimp, Viva recieved multiple events that made less sense year after year and they all were to dismantle Benin. 카와이카매] ([[User talk:|카와이카매talk) 22:04, August 16, 2016 (UTC)

Mod Event Complaint
''' Frustrated by the difficult terrain and slow travel for caravans heading to areas hit by the famine, many in Central Asia begin to seethe with discontent. This only intensifies as bands of riders begin attacking the food caravans, making off with their valuable contents before they can reach the major cities. '''

Now, I would just like to list a few points stating why the Mod Events make little sense.

-First of all, I would like to mention the 'Great Famine' I was given via Mod Event yesterday. The Event supposedly created a famine in Central Asia which stunted my population and threatened thousands of lives. This came as a surprise to me, especially when we consider that Central Asia has rarely ever been hit by a Great Famine throughout its history. Agricultural output has been sufficient to such a degree in Central Asia that the only otl Central Asian state to ever suffer a major famine was Kazakhistan, that too was because it was an artificial famine created by the Soviets. Moreover, when we consider the fact that almost all otl CAR states are agrarian in nature, it completely settles any question or debate in regards to the agricultural sufficiency of Central Asia. When we further consider that my nation controls the Fertile Crescent, the region known for being the most fertile and agriculturally important area in the Middle East; it clearly highlights the fact that my nation cannot be hit by a major famine because I obviously have the resources to feed my people. The reason I never raised the issue was because I assumed that the famine was perhaps similar to the ones European nations suffered every decade or so (which they aren't getting for some reason in PM4) so I decided not to outright criticize it. But after reading the very recent Mod Event, I've come to the conclusion that this is no more than a step by step process to promote unrest and discontent in my nation.. A plan who's very basis doesn't really make sense.

-Moving onto the 1431 Mod Event. I would first like to question what the Event means by "difficult terrain". Given that this Mod Event is centered in Central Asia, the logical conclusion is that it is referring to its terrain which has absolutely no major natural barrier of some sort that could obstruct transport. The area can easily be transvered through so I'm not sure where the difficult terrain part came into being. If the terrain was truly difficult to move through, it would never have served as the epicentre of the silk road. If anything, it would have been impossible for the Mongol armies to pass through this land to move South and West. Clearly, that isn't the case because there is nothing about the terrain that makes it impassable.

-The second part of the Mod Event speaks of slow travel for caravans heading towards area hit by the famine. Once again, this comes as a surprise to me as the area which has been supposedly hit by a famine was the same area that was full of routes that made up the Silk Road. If the area was truly so difficult to pass through, merchants would've utilized a sea route from the port city of Basra to India and onwards. They didn't because clearly, there is nothing wrong with the routes. When we further consider that I've been diverting funds towards developing the routes connecting the major cities of the Empire in order to promote the Compact of Iskenderun, for roughly 20 years now, it leads to further confusion as to how the caravans could supposedly not reach in time.

-Finally, something connected to my very first point. When we go through the list of major famines, the great majority lasted little more than a year. In fact, they ended within the same year. Yet somehow, Central Asia; a region that was never historically touched by major famines has somehow been hit by a famine in PM4.. and somehow the effects of that famine are now extending and stretching on and on. Hmm..?

The travel is slow because it needs to travel from areas such as inner Persia and Iraq to Central Asia. While it can be done, yes, that doesn't change the fact of the matter that it takes time to do so, especially when crossing the Persian mountain ranges. With trade goods like silk and porcelain, time is hardly important. When it comes to food, time is very important, especially to people who may be starving.

Secondly, I think it's important to point out that one, Kazakhstan was not the only place to suffer famine in Central Asia's history, nor were all of them a result of manmade issues. It should be pointed out that the famines in Kazakhstan that you mentioned, as well as the others that you did not, took place in the modern era, when advances such as irrigation should have helped mitigated the droughts that started them. Droughts can still happen, both now and then.

Thirdly, I find it interesting how everyone assumes that because they get one bad event, they are going to suffer major problems. That is not the case and people should know that there are examples of that, even as there are examples that prove otherwise. The point is, a single bad event or two should not be viewed as the disaster that it apparently seems to be viewed as.

Finally, if in the future you get another bad event that you believe to be implausible, by all means provide a feasible alternative that you believe is much more plausible. The mods cannot know every single aspect about every single nation, but as mentioned before, every nation will be smited from time to time. If you agree with that concept but disagree with the means, then provide an alternative.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:56, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

Going On Vacation
Since i will ot be here I would need someone to do my turns for me from Friday to Sunday. - Scarlet Outlaw