Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Useful Resources:

A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Possible Unification of the British Isles in future
The Celtic Alliance is clearly the pre-eminent power in the islands, and will undoubtedly unite the archipelago. Now I've never been happy with the word Celtic because th e idea of modern Celts is a 19th century British invention. And I doubt that the nations in England will be happy about being lumped in with the Irish. And the Irish/Scots won't want to be British. So what do we call the future state? I have a few suggestions.

Britanniae-Britanniae is the old Roman term for all the islands, but 'Britanniaesh' hardly rolls off the tongue.

Albion-Could work very well, but usually refers to only Great Britain and England at that. And it is the name Cleveland and Northumbria will have when they unite.

Brutan-After Brutus, the legendary namesake of the Islands. Could equally appeal to the Celtic revival of old traditions and lore, and to the English states British nationalism.

Prydain-Welsh name for Britain, thus combining Britishness and Celticness.

Brittonica-Very old name for Britain thus combining the same ideals.

Avalon-Implies rebirth, and combines British and Celtic traditions.

Crytain-Old Welsh name for Ireland, bit heavier on the Celts than the Brits, but it does sound very much like Britain.

Aside from that, I was thinking we could call it the United States of _________ to imply a relative looseness of rule to deliver on the regional identities which will have emerged. Mumby 18:41, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have a thing for the name Prydain. Just sayin' - I love that word to bits. And it can be melded with Britain to form 'Pridain', 'Bridain', or 'Prytain' - which would be pretty acceptable for all. Fegaxeyl 18:48, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

....Huh?

The idea that they would merge makes no sense at all.

Lordganon 07:25, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

That's not what Mumby said; he said that the other British states would most likely be united under the Celtic Alliance and brought into it, rather than being equal partners. Fegaxeyl 08:27, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

The words "unite" and "merge" differ in meaning only slightly.

As I said, the idea makes no sense. Heck, his post even says why.

Lordganon 09:48, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

My view is that the British states will not be able to maintain their independence indefinitely. Either the OBN will evntually federate into a United States of Britain with the House of Percy at its head, or they will be subsumed into an altered Celtic Alliance. Considering the prosperity of the Alliance, this is more likely. The Celts have already shown themselves to be moderately successful at integrating Britons, though there is a significant contingent which calls for more autonomy for British provinces. Just extend that, and increase devolution, a Pryttish Federation is perfectly possible. Besides, you are not the whole community and cannot just barge in and veto. Mumby 17:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * LG is not vetoing it, he just said it does not make sense...and frankly I agree with him. Its been almost 28 years since Doomsday. And entire generation has grown up not knowing what the "United Kingdom" was, at least not in a real "this is my nation" sense. Their local leaders are more real to them. They are to ones who pulled them through the hell of Doomsday. Last time I check, the government of the United Kingdom left them for Africa. Mitro 18:38, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not talking about a restoration of the UK. I'm talking about a unification of the British Isles under Irish leadership, and a reasonable degree of local government that allows them to choose their own mode of democratic government. However, I am merely voicing an idea that the community might find interesting. If it isn't plausible it needn't go any further than here. Other than that, the most likely result is a British Federation born out of the OBN. And the OBN states are looking for other avenues for expansion so they may be able to operate independently of the Alliance. Mumby 18:59, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Your own posts, and Mitro's, are exactly why it wouldn't be possible. Something like that with the OBN states, maybe - but not with the CA. Lordganon 09:30, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Northumbria and Cleveland will merge into Albion due to the unification of the crowns of these nations, however this will not happen for many years, they also have no intention of merging with other OBN nations and Cleveland's already voted on joining the CA and the vote came back 'no'--Smoggy80 12:43, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

There is absolutely no chance of this happening, What has happened since DD is that the old divisions in the UK North/South, extra have been exaggerated to such a point that the idea of Britain is probably no more than a distant memory. Yes the celts could absorb the other countries by force but I see no reason why they would want to extend themselves that way. Vegas adict 13:09, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Essaxons, Woodbridgers, and Newollanders have all stated their fond memories of the old country. Besides, its not even been thirty years. And the Celtic Alliance has repeatedly stressed that it is the inheritor of the British and Irish states. If there was no memory of what it is to be British that statement would not be important. I accept that a unification may not happen, but there is still a lingering British identity. The Pryttish Federation may well be more like the German Federation of the 19th century, less of a union more a loose union of states that keep order, peace and prosperity, with the Celts as the Pryttish answer to Prussians. Remember it was just an idea and I didn't mean anything by it. Mumby 13:56, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Just because the Celts say something, does not mean anyone will actually listen. There's a far cry between feeling nostalgic about the old country, and being dominated by the Irish.

Thirty years means than something like half the population, and likely more, only know of Britain through stories. In 10 years, they will be in charge.

And, imo, that is an overly pleasant view of both Prussia, the German Confederation, and how Germany unified.

Lordganon 14:45, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I was simply using Germany as an analogue. I know that unification was hardly pleasant, but here the Celts are in an even more dominant position to Austria since there isnt an Austria to keep them in check. But the Celts are far less militaritistic and far more enlightened than the 19th century Prussians. And does it not occur to you that there are moves in America to recreate the USA with precisely the same issues, if not more because of the distances involved, yet when I suggest a loose confederacy that isn't even a government as simply an idea, I get shot down for simply mooting it? Mumby 15:35, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Germany unified primarily because Napoleon's expeditions through Germanic territory showed the German vulnerability to France. This catalysed efforts to group closer and closer together until the Franco-Prussian War sparked the formation of the German Empire.

A British unification will occur only depending on what the dominant power in the Isles, the Celtic Alliance, does. Or, an external threat could galvanize unification, but no such threat exists. At the current stage, the OBN as it currently exists is most likely, to counter Celtic hegemony in the Isles. If the Celts grew stronger, for example acquired more naval vessels, the OBN would gain a military arm and economic union would occur.

Simply put, the Celts are likely to grow stronger, galvanizing these transformations. In decades to come this TL might see a Celtic Alliance/British Union balance of power that eventually yields to one power controlling the Isles, but this won't occur for a long time. Gatemonger 19:53, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

You need to calm the heck down, Mumby.

The USA movement does have significant resistance. They won't get most of the former US, by a long shot. Think about how that applies to the Isles.

Your idea has not been shot down. We have merely stated that it is not very realistic. The locals have shot down all attempts, with good reasons. To them, it is, I'm sure, something akin to an Irish annexation.

And, there's no outside threats that could realistically harm the area, either.

Lordganon 10:38, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

There is of course the obvious option....Britain, not Great Britain, just Britain. Seeing as there is already a Organisation of British Nations it would make sense that any unification (which is unlikely to happen anyway) would be called Britain--Smoggy80 20:31, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Personally I'm inclined towards thinking that if the various English survivour nations are going to become one with anyone, it'd be Cleveland/ Albion. It's already the biggest and the one with the most economic and military clout, not to mention that technically speaking they can fufil the "until such a time as a true heir to the British Crown arrives to take control of our nation" part of Southern England's constitution. . Plus, when Cleveland and Northumbria unite, they're going to be known as Albion. The weight of fictional tradition is behind them. Although that said, it wouldn't happen for a good long while yet, and even then it'd depend on how things go.Tessitore 17:54, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

True dat. Newolland is quite monarchyish, so to further British unification (which they are very in favour of) they might pledge fealty to Albion to retain their own unique monarchy. The only sticking point are the more republican nations of Woodbridge and Essex. They will be less likely to want to pledge fealty to a Northern kingdom. I can also see Lancaster pledging fealty to Albion, and Southern Scotland might well become some sort of 'Associated Republic'. That could be the solution for Essex and Woodbridge. Mumby 10:08, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Lancaster is a bit complicated. On one hand, they and Cleveland are more or less the best of friends but on the other there is a bit of a rivalry going on (not even Doomsday could erase the legacy of the War of the Roses), partly because the Lancastrians are a tiny bit put out about Yorkshire (which Cleveland pretty much is) outdoing them. Or to put it another way, Lancaster is tsundere for Cleveland. What this would mean with regards to the possibility of them pledging fealty, even I don't know.Tessitore 22:54, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

France/ANZC Deal
I had an idea while reading this article regarding the French overseas territories. In the past, France has often used its colonies as bargaining chips to get concessions from the UK and other powers. I don't see why they wouldn't resort to the same realpolitik tactics here.

What if the French government offers the ANZC a deal in a secret agreement? This deal would trade France's overseas territories for ANZC assistance in reunifying France under its rule. France would obviously gain from this and the ANZC would essentially control trade through the Southern Ocean.

I wanted to put this here first So I don't end up deleting other people's work. Obviously this will be a topic of discussion between the owners of the two pages, but let me know what you think of this proposal. Gatemonger 00:00, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Err.....

Far as I know, the RTFA already has ANZC backing, as well as that of much of the world. And the ANZC is already in the position you describe, too.

Lordganon 00:24, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives:Page 1 {C Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

Alternate Way of Drawing maps
Some of you have probably seen by now the map of Europe that posted on DeviantArt a few days ago (If you have not seen it yet go to the 1983DD Facebook page). That map was also posted on AH.com and after reading the comments, someone actually had issue with how much empty area there is. Now both Ben and I chimed in to explain why, so we do not need to rehash that, but does anyone know what the maps would look like if we included claimed areas along defacto control? Mitro 18:54, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Many overlapping claims. Add to that that a lot of nations claims parts of each other, and many more haven't ever made any claims of that nature. Lordganon 09:34, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I sort of did that with the China map, showing controlled and Sphere of Influence as well as territory in the process of being reclaimed. But yeah, too many overlapping claims to do a map that showed claimed area. Some areas would be fine, but for example with China, where Taiwan, the PRC, and I believe Imperial China all claim all of mainland China, with several other independent states in the area. We could probably do one that shows claims, but it would be incredibly messy.Oerwinde 11:56, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

We could try using a specific color for disputed areas. Or it could be done like OTL maps where it shows the country with the better/recognized claim to the area but has light borders over it from where other countries claim it as well, like Kashmir. Mitro 13:58, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

For local maps, maybe - we already do that often for that. But globally, continentally, etc? Just not workable. Plus, as I said, so many don't even have claims, and just expand their borders slowly outwards. Lordganon 14:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * The best way that I can think of is to draw a "Claims" map from a certain point of view. "The world as viewed by the USSR," for example, might show the claims that the USSR considers valid while excluding competing claims. As it stands now, such a map would be really incomplete and hard to make, since we haven't quite reached that level of depth on world diplomacy. But the results would be interesting and revealing. Benkarnell 19:48, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2;

Essex and exporting labour
Hi all! I'd love for some input on my predicament. Here's the issue:

As you probably know, I'm the caretaker of Essex. As LG and the OBN editors will know, Essex is in the situation where it's in an economic rut. It has no real natural resources. It has very little industrial base; OTL there is light manufacturing but after DD the nation relies on material from up north to supply this industry. It has a very large population (the second largest in Britain, behind the Celtic Alliance) and as such is dedicated almost entirely to farming. Even this isn't great because as the territory surrounds London there is huge amounts of radiation-related crop failure, and the lack of economy means the nation can't afford better farming methods.

In order to address this issue the current administration in-universe is supporting centralisation, trying to capitalise on the creativity and limited resources in the towns. It's also supporting the creation of many 'chartered companies' to seize useful assets throughout the country, but in spite of the incentives to do this (a lot of self-management and exemption from many laws) they still lack the technical knowledge to make this a great scheme. It's also trying to establish itself as a trading centre, since it controls the Thames Estuary, but this isn't going to be great because it lacks the inherent wealth to be good at trading and is outcompeted by other seafaring nations.

Understandably, something must be done to prevent the nation from collapsing. I've been thinking and I think a good way to go about this would be for Essex to export its labour force. What I'm talking about is similar to the economic policies of Yugoslavia, and post-Soviet Poland: the government supporting its people working in foreign countries to bring back money.

The issue is, Essex is a small nation on an island. To the OBN editors, I ask where the best jobs are going locally; and to the wider community, I ask where Essaxon workers could go overseas. Are there any job vacancies for a rugged population which is used to settling in high-radiation areas? Or just a need for a workforce for crappy little jobs, like building and so forth? And crucially, is it plausible - how far could they go using European transportation technology, bearing in mind they have to be able to regularly send their money back home?

I look forward to input.

Fegaxeyl 14:44, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, definitely not anywhere outside of Europe.

Off hand....

The IPA and ADC are doing large reconstruction projects in Southern Europe. The Prussians, Rhodopians, and the URC, are also doing lots of recovery work in former cities, etc.

They could also try their luck in the "frontier" nations in the forests of eastern Europe.

Lordganon 15:06, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

This is interesting because Newolland has the reverse issue. The population is low, so most of the economy is fueled by agriculture. But the economy remains weak despite the relative agricultural wealth present in the area because of dire labour shortages. This has only been exacerbated by recent expansion. Newolland is now a comparatively large nation in the British Isles but only has a few hundred thousand in terms of population. Therefore it makes some economic sense for an overpopulated Essex to send settlers to underpopulated Newolland.

On another point, an interesting question is raised if lots of Essaxons end up living on the wild frontier of Eastern Europe (Wild East?). We could end up with a Texas scenario. Not perfectly obviously. If a high concentration of low-paid foreign workers ends up in a sparsely populated resource rich area is there not a possibility of them attempting to break away and found their own nation? Clusters of English-speaking city-states in the wilds of Eastern Europe is an attractively crazy idea. Mumby 16:30, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

True, Newolland and the other British nations would work. There's going to be a lot of very unpopulated land, after all.

As for the Texas bit.... Northern Mexico, of that era, is basically the only time such things have occurred. For good reason, lol. Nor are these lands that anyone but the Russians or Belerussians would actually want to live in.

Lordganon 00:56, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Lancaster could probably do with more miners since given it's trade arrangement with Novgorod the demand for coal would've gone up a fair bit and the current miners can only do so much. Plus there's the mills (processing bast fibres is pretty labour intensive which is why they were overtaken by cotton in the past), tourism in Blackpool during the summer, construction work and general labouring etc. It doesn't have the same sort of manpower shortage as Newolland  but when the tech level is roughly Edwardian there's always a need for more hands. Plus the extra man power might encourage the expansion of a few industries.Tessitore 23:45, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3

1990 FEMA Nuclear Attack Report
During the course of my research I ran across the following link http://www.ssrsi.org/Onsite/PDFbin/FEMA%20nuke%20annexa.pdf. It took me to an actual copy of the 1990 FEMA Nuclear Attack Planning Report. I don't know if anyone else had seen this, but I thought I would pass it along if you would like to read it for reference. --Fxgentleman 04:50, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't seem to work, Fx. Lordganon 06:38, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Get your own copy by going to this link: Annexa.PDF. That will load the PDF for you to save and reference. It has a lot of statistics, the most significant being that which tells the psi of explosion over the population of the USA (page five). The maps of the states include the same hits that the maps we have been using have. It seems that our assumptions have more killed in the short run. There is no telling how many would die in the aftermath. SouthWriter 04:10, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say that, South. If you look at the later tables the numbers of people at "high-risk" and "very high-risk" and even "medium-risk" from direct effects are higher than the first set of tables.

Adding up those totals, we have 183,630,504 people in those categories. 58,478,645 more are in the "low-risk" category. The US population in 1990 was 248,709,873 or so according to wikipedia. Take away the medium and higher categories, and that leaves us with 65,079,369 people. Subtract the low-risk, and that leaves us with 6,600,724 people unaffected.

If you factor in that the attacks here are, more or less, a complete surprise, all of those groups will be suffering a great deal of casualties. Virtually all of the "very-high-risk," nearly all of the "high-risk" and much of the medium risk are dead, as are some of the low-risk. Factor in chaos and radiation and we're at our levels.

Lordganon 05:21, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

My apologies for the bad link. I ran across it during my recent research and downloaded a copy of the report. Something must have happened after I accessed it. I checked the link South listed and the end result was the same thing, so my thanks to him. I have ran across a great deal of interesting things the last month I hope to share with the rest of the writers if they are interested. --Fxgentleman 12:17, November 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Fx, I look forward to your continued research.


 * LG, Taking the percentages of the 1990 report, 33% would be hit with more than 5 PSI. The charts use a population of 242,102,419 in 1985, but the population in 1980, according to the census, was 226,545,805. The population growth rate for the 1980's was just under 10%, so lets put the population in 1983 at an increase of 3% of 226 million, or up by 6.5 million to 233 million to start with. Of that, then, 77.7 million were hit the hardest, killing say 85% outright. That's 66 million dead. Then, the next group of the population, the Low and Medium (.5 to 2 PSI) make up 40% of the population. Of the total, this is 90.6 million people basically in the suburbs of the targeted cities, leaving about 50% dead from the attacks, or 45.3 miilion. That means about 111.3 million are killed outright in a population of 226.5 millon. The remaining population (with less than .5 psi) would be another 27% or about 61 million "unaffected." Let's say that 20% of that number, over all, die due to the riots and other violence within a few days of the attacks. That's 12.2 million more dead. That means by midweek, let's say, 123.5 million Americans have died, leaving about 103 million survivors (not the 20 million we now assume). If half of these die in the first year, there would be over 50 million left.


 * I did not take the time to check the figures that included the up to 10 psi with the previous chart, but from what I gather, the highest risk (158 million) affected amounts to about 64% of the population (or 150 million, 1983 estimate of 233 million). If we assume 95% of these are dead outright, then that leaves 7.5 million survivors (for how long, we don't know). Of the high risk (between 2 and 5 psi, we see another 4% affected, or 9.7 million. Lets say, just to be especially brutal, that 75% of these die within days -- that's 2.4 million survivors. Then we have the Medium risk areas comprising about 6% of the population (14.4 million). Of these, let's say a full 50% die, leaving 7.2 million more survivors. This means the survivors from in and around nuclear strikes would add up to around 19.3 million to add to the 56.3 million. That leaves a about 77.6 million survivors in all to fight over the resources left over. Even with blood baths everywhere - say a death rate of 50% - you'd have 38.8 million survivors left to meet the challenge of rebuilding.


 * Either way, our assumptions do not add up to those of these projections. We may have assumed right, and so far our populations based on known survivor states are sitting at below 30 million if I remember right, but the figures from the 'experts' seem to indicate we've been a bit hard on the US population. I would say that given what we have now, we can assume that there are quite a few independent city-states that have gone unnoticed or unaccounted for. None of any consequence, mind you, but just waiting for some editor to explore. 98.71.145.11 21:52, November 19, 2011 (UTC) (I had forgotten to log in -- SouthWrtier)

Makes no sense at all for them to have used such out of date figures, but I see that they did. Typical, lol. The 1985 figures given are more than good enough, since that means no arguing over the exact numbers.

The Very-high risk numbers are all dead. Maybe not all instantly, but the result is the same. These would be the residents of major cities large areas or their suburbs, those near bases, and those near the silos. 158.5 million gone.

You will be lucky to get a million out of the high-risk 10.1 million to survive. These would be secondary targets, by my guess.

You'd be about right on the mediums, I think. Another 7.5 million gone.

But, you avoid entirely the low-risk. "Low-risk" does not equal "unharmed." Remove 10 million here.

And, even all of that, that file is only the direct effects - i.e. the blast itself and the pressure waves. Fires, toxins, radiation, etc. are all not factored in. 50% would be an understatement - it would be closer to 75%.

That leaves something around 14,250,000 people.

Probably, the actual number lies between the two.

Now, in the former USA, according to the "Doomsday by US State" list, there is a total of around 34,674,178 people in the former USA. Admittedly, this list is not complete. Incomplete are:


 * States with small populations left that are blank: Arizona, Minnesota, New Jersey
 * States with almost no populations left that are blank: Connecticut, Rhode Island
 * Other states that are blank: Idaho, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Vermont, Virginia

That's probably another 10 million, if not more.

The population we have is more than fine. From 20 million - or something around there - we have more than doubled the population in 28 years. Very reasonable.

Lordganon 07:51, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, you win on that one, I guess. I ran the figures and with a death rate of between 50 and 75 percent (62.5 %) - rather high in my estimation, but the consensus seems to be against me - we come out with about 21 million. The total was a bit higher for the present known populations than I rememembered (I was the one that added them up to begin with!), so thank you for reminding us of the gaps in that chart. The mentioned blanks need attention, but an additional 10 million sounds about right. Besides, it doesn't look like too many folk are interesting in keeping this time line updated and/or expanded. Sad, for it is a very worthy project. SouthWriter 19:53, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Part of it at least has to be because doing it right requires a significant investment in time. Some of it because people simply lose interest. There's been an ebb and flow to this TL in regards to participation over the years; I do hope we're merely in a lull period.

Allow me to guess at population figures for some of the aforementioned states.

Rhode Island - zero

Arizona - 70,000 between Dinetah and the survivor town (towns?) located there

Connecticut - 20,000 or so, mainly in the Vermont-held western portion

BrianD 02:12, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, Brian. I think that we're just in a slow period. Over the last few months we've had a few spurts of activity, just hasn't really stuck. I'm sure it will get going again. Those of us still posting just need to keep on trucking, drawing attention by posting, and the newbies will come eventually. {C Arizona would run slightly less than that - the Navajo are based in former Utah, and do control parts of four states with their roughly 100k population. Prescott has about 20,000 or so, and we've pretty well wrote off everyone else in the state because of the desert. Something like 50k or so, probably. Rhode Island only survives in the form of Block Island, which is about a thousand people. More or less that for Connecticut.

Michigan has something like 750,000 or so today, mostly in Superior/the Upper Peninsula. Minnesota would be just over a hundred thousand, or so, by my guess. New Jersey, whatever the population of AC is plus a few thousand. Couple million in Vermont/New Hampshire. Something like a million each in most of the rest. Lordganon 01:35, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Is this ready to be archived? Arstar 22:58, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

No. Lordganon 09:37, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Secret Plan to Govern US in Event of Nuclear War
I recently ran across a story from 2004 in the Atlantic Monthly regarding a secret plan in effect during the Reagon administration to run the country in the event a nuclear war killed the president and vice president. Although I don't know if it affects this ATL scenario, it is worth reading. I double checked the link and it is good. http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2004/03/mann.htm Enjoy. --Fxgentleman 01:47, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Well, apart from drills each year, the timing of which we cannot predict, it only seems to be activated during nuclear war. I really can't see it being an issue here, given that this was such a shocker.

Probably the biggest flaw I see with that plan is that barring a fluke by which the teams are randomly out on a drill at the time, a surprise nuclear attack is still going to take out such teams, or at the very least prevent them making their destination. The only ones that would at all make it would be the ones that go to the places where Reagan and Bush went, really. Which kinda defeats the purpose, lol.

Lordganon 04:59, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

This makes me wonder who else made it to Mount Weather/Greenbrier and to a proposal I've been brewing over for some time: the urban legend (in the DD world) of Spenatz agents shooting down incoming planes and helicopters carrying Congressmen, Senators, government officials attempting to flee D.C., and therefore only the President, the VP, their staffs and spouses, and some of the Cabinet survived. BrianD 05:44, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with what you are saying Brian. Sometime ago I began reading newspapers from around the US covering the 9/24-27/1983 period to get a feel about who was where and if they could have survived. Been through the W.Post, NY Times, and all the papers availble through the online Newspaper Archives. I have not been able to get back up to the Library of Congress in sometime to continue my work, but I was able to pin down a number of celebrities but unfortunately not many politicians. I figure the DOD Secretary was likely lost since he was Beijing. That said it does beg the question if any top people such as Sec/State, Speaker/House, and S.Court Chief Justice could have been taken to those locales. I have been doing research on Joeseph Biden to see if he could have made it to Delmarva and based on my results plan to do something in the near future. The same for Al Haig and the SNU. The problem I find is that alot of the research to make such determinations can't always be found on the web and you literally have to go to the library to do the hard core research, time allowing. Someday, if I ever get the time (LOL) I will try to put up an article showing what I found so far.--Fxgentleman 20:34, November 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * An excellent article, and though I was not aware of it, I incorporated something of this idea in the 'rebirth' of the United States of America. Speaking of which, I really need to get back to that being that the November elections would put the Dakotas, Neonotia and the USAR on track to become "states" or at least territories. Anyway, I supposed the survival of at least part of congress in a proposed rewrite in trying to get Sunkist's Republic of Indiana (now Obsolete) article graduated. He pasted my suggested scenario directly from the talk page to the article but it didn't get much of a reaction from anyone but Arstar. Fx's research into the days newspaper archives is the best attempt I've seen to decide where congressmen and senators might have been on that Sunday evening. The would not have been in session, so most would have been in their DC area homes or apartments. They would have been on their own in escaping, though they may have known to get to Mt. Weather or the Greenbrier Hotel facility with Bush. I'd think at least the leadership of both houses would have evacuated with Bush (if they could be located quickly enough). It would be good if we could find out where they lived at the time. The Wikipedia article for the 98th Congress lists all the members, with links to their articles. The few that I looked into, though, gave no mention of where they may have been living in the DC area on DD.


 * Keep up the good work, Fx. SouthWriter 04:53, November 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, LG, the fact that they were ongoing each year, means that plans were being formulated in each simulation. Therefore, on the announcement of the incoming weapons, the teams would be dispatched immediately. The fact that the president and the vice president survived makes it a moot point, of course, but their survival is not determined by whether they happened to be in the two places designed for the survival of the government. If anything, the designated 'third team' may have actually headed to a 'safe place' and later contacted Reagan and or Bush. It has never been established who survived other than the top executives, but some of the top ranking members would have been 'spirited away' immediately. And for goodness sake, how wrong is it to "Laugh out loud" concerning a doomsday scenario. :-/


 * Brian, who started that DD urban legend? And where is it discussed? A disturbing scenario for sure. :-(
 * SouthWriter 05:05, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

The reason I established plausibility about Joe Biden was based on something I read a longtime ago. Biden lived in Delaware and commutted back and forth on Amtrak to DC every day. Given it was a Sunday and his home was not in the Dover area, I felt he would be there, survive, and escape with his family and head south. However, he did suffer a major health issue later on which could not as easily be fixed in this ATL that I will have to address. But as its been pointed out it is not normally that easy in deducing where the little fish were as it is for the bigger ones.--Fxgentleman 05:19, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

South, I can't source it at the moment but I have read articles alleging that Soviet agents likely would commit various acts of terrorism in any build-up to a conflict between the US and USSR. While I have seen that idea elsewhere, the idea of the Soviet agents blowing up planes and/or cars filled with Congressmen outside Mount Weather, Greenbrier or DC or wherever, as an urban legend lasting into the present day, is my own. BrianD 06:17, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

FX, I would look forward to such an article.

A question would be who would have gone to the Greenbrier and how they got there. The Greenbrier, as I understand it, would have been the destination for Congressin the event of an exchange, and even had a working replica of the House and Senate chambers. Another would be what happened to the House and Senate members after Bush left. BrianD 06:25, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Not quite what I meant, South. I've no doubt that they would get told to leave, but.... in all of the chaos, and the sudden nature of things, I doubt that most, even the members of these "teams," would be able to get out. Those that do would simply not be able to reach their intended destination, in all likelihood. Without the equipment from the test runs, I'd also guess. I've no doubt that some would make it, but..... as I said, unless they were going to the places nearby, they likely wouldn't arrive. Not necessarily dead, but not at their destination, either. Most Congressional members that make it out would likely, as planned, head to Greenbrier. Not that many would, mind. Biden is probably the one member we can likely say for sure lived though it, though Fx is right about his health problems likely killing him anyways. Yes, I've read about the terrorist stuff, too. Definitely an urban legend that would exist.

Lordganon 02:05, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

How close can you get to a nuked city now?
We've been having discussions on the OBN talk page about exactly how close can you get to a nuked city now.

The majority of nuke hits in the former UK are 100KT and 200KT blasts, but there were a couple of 1MT blasts.

I thought i'd throw it open to the community and see what the concensus is, so what does everyone think? how close do you think is 'Safe', what with it being nearly 30 years after DD. --Smoggy80 16:46, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

From what i gathered when researching for my victoria article, radiation should dissipate enough for travel or cleanup after around 10 years. extended exposure would still be unsafe. for example, nagasaki and hiroshima began reclaimation after 5 years.Oerwinde 19:03, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

And, we all know just how bad cases of cancers, etc. have been from the Japanese moving back into those cities far too soon. And we're talking about nukes far larger.

For fallout, and the edges of blasts, true it would have been made safe by now. But.... the main blast zones are still irradiated. Since the aftereffects of radiation were finally - too late, but it happens - noted, many test zones are even today still off limits, for obvious reasons.

Lordganon 01:37, January 28, 2012 (UTC) I've always assumed that by now say a mile or two from the blast site being total 'no go' radioactive zones. From that zone to about 10 miles for a 100KT and 15-20 miles for a 200KT blast site would be the relativly 'unsafe' zone, no good for living or farming but ok to travel through or mine stuff in (copper, zinc, lead etc). Beyond these areas should be relativley safe (depending on blown fallout)

Does that sound reasonable or far fetched? --Smoggy80 12:43, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

I found this quote from a website about surviving a nuclear blast

''Radioactive fallout from a nuclear explosion, though very dangerous initially, loses its intensity quickly because it is giving off so much energy. For example, fallout emitting gamma ray radiation at a rate over 500 R/hr (fatal with one hour of exposure) shortly after an explosion, weakens to only 1/10th as strong 7 hours later. Two days later, it's only 1/100th as strong, or as deadly, as it was initially.''

--Smoggy80 19:14, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Or this webpage ''A useful rule-of-thumb is the "rule of sevens". This rule states that for every seven-fold increase in time following a fission detonation (starting at or after 1 hour), the radiation intensity decreases by a factor of 10.''

''Thus after 7 hours, the residual fission radioactivity declines 90%, to one-tenth its level of 1 hour. After 7x7 hours (49 hours, approx. 2 days), the level drops again by 90%. After 7x2 days (2 weeks) it drops a further 90%; and so on for 14 weeks. The rule is accurate to 25% for the first two weeks, and is accurate to a factor of two for the first six months. After 6 months, the rate of decline becomes much more rapid. The rule of sevens corresponds to an approximate t^-1.2 scaling relationship. '' --Smoggy80 19:35, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

The first of those only pertains to fallout, and the second only to short-lived-isotopes. Not the long-term radiation from the blasts, but the short-term. Says that in both of those, Smog.

Probably not too far off on the size, overall.

Travelling through the areas that are uninhabitable but outside of the worst zones, has to be shielded. Like the train in Cleveland you have.

As has been pointed out by several of us, however, mining/scavenging means that there must be settlement. It is as bad, or worse, than farming.

Lordganon 20:16, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

What about a penal colony? A bunch of prisoners who dodged the death penalty by the skin of their teeth and a few guards who are either willing to risk their necks for danger money or already have cancer and want to make some extra cash for their families before they get too sick to work?

Also, some of the 'borderline' areas could probably be 'nibbled at' by people who are willing to make the journey from settlements in safe areas, although that'd be more of a sideline then anything else, the sort of thing farm workers might do to make some extra money during quiet periods of the agricultural year.Tessitore 21:26, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

"Nibbling" does not occupation make.

Even if you combined all the OBN nations and such prisoners from them, it's not close to enough to make any such penal move realistic. Nor would that translate into any real level of control, either.

Lordganon 07:58, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

This is something that has to be established (not just for us OBN editors) but for all articles, we can't have new towns being built on the ruins of nuked ones, we went through this with Seoul, it might be best to establish rules regarding nuked cities by yield of bomb dropped on it. Rough distance estimates would be fine.

--Smoggy80 12:51, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe so. There are numerous factors that vary greatly locally which could effect the extent one way or the other.

And, the Seoul case is the only one where anyone's tried to build a new town on top of the old one. Nor was there ever a remote chance it could have graduated in that form, because we all knew it was insanity.

The graduation process is more than fine for keeping such things in check. The idea of a rule is not workable at all, really.

Lordganon 14:40, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Since Doomsday, and the "decrease" in radiation from striked targets, which cities would still be dangerous. Obviously Washington DC, LA, Moscow, etc is, but what about..like the smaller striked zones, like the ones that were dropped on an military base. Would the base still be radioactive. Enclavehunter 21:45, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'd imagine that would depend on the circumstances. In Essex, Colchester was only hit because of its garrison, and as such had only a small bomb. So there would certainly be enough particulates to form fallout from the local area, but perhaps not of a scale comparable to larger cities, and would probably be safe enough by now. A military base in the countryside, however, would probably be safe.

That's not to say the radiation would have gone. The fallout is composed of materials with a variety of half-lives. The most lethal would go rapidly but background radiation would be high for centuries and millennia. The most dangerous ones would be the ones that last 20-200 years. In that case, it's more a matter of 'concentration'.

At least, that's what I remember from the last time I did thorough research into fallout, a year ago!

So yeah, to sum up my points, countryside bases that were airbursted should be fine with only trace amounts of dangerous radiation. Those in towns and cities will probably be a bit worse but habitable if you're cautious or determined enough. Fegaxeyl 22:10, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

It is my understanding that radioactive fallout is caused mostly by irradiated material that is spread by the wind. An airburst produces relatively little in the way of radiactive particles since the irradiation is the result of shortlived particles that strike matter close to the initial explosion. In the air this would be water vapor, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide with the vaporized casing. A groundburst, though irradiates tons of solid matter, vaporizing some and spewing particulates up in the rising mushroom cloud. Any target hit by a groundburst would suffer irradiation that would last for decades, if not centuries. This is my understanding based on what I have read here and there. Any and all links to the contrary are welcome. :-)   SouthWriter 06:47, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Enclave, any bases or cities 100kt or larger in the strike size would be still no-go zones. About the only ones that would be safe would be the 10kt ones. More or less what Feg said, overall.

South, you're right that that is the majority of the fallout. It's very much dependent on the size of the blast, however, and the target. Add the exact height to that. As noted already, the small air-bursts should be fine by now - but everything else is going to be for decades to come, with the largest ground-bursts staying like that for centuries.

Lordganon 07:44, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Airbase nukes
Related to the above point but different enough to merit its own discussion.

Quite simply, airbases and airports: groundburst, airburst, or dependent on the circumstances? Fegaxeyl 22:11, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

When I wrote the UK page I summised that airbases, airports and other military barracks would have been hit with small 'tactical' i.e. low yield nukes (10KT or so, or less than Hiroshima/Nagasaki size) as the Soviets wouldn't have waisted large nukes on small (less than 0.5 mile across) bases, and you can stuff a lot more 10KT warheads into a missile designed for 1MT bomb (I was guessing at 15-20 warheads), plus the blasts from that one mssile would be almost at the same time.

Seeing as the 'tactical' nukes were smaller than 1945 Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs then we can use them as examples, so 30 years later they would be safe, but totally overgrown.

--Smoggy80 10:09, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

....That wasn't really what was asked, Smog.

It would depend on the circumstances which one was used, Feg.

For instance, as smog has noted, tiny more minor ones, probably airbursts, so long as there's no cities, etc. around.

Groundbursts, if there is bunkers, etc. there, or it is larger.

Airports, probably always a ground burst, though again, dependent on the size.

Lordganon 07:36, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I won't mind, really), but would not tactical nukes by design be ground bursts to assure destruction of the target with the least collateral damage? In today's warfare (not TTL) that includes "smart bombs" that go right into a structure before exploding! In 1983, though, hitting a target directly on top of it would eliminate half of the destructive range due to the reduced (by half) fireball and shockwave. The EMP would also be reduced quite a bit, not that it matters to the target! SouthWriter 19:51, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Despite what Smog's saying, those 10kt ones used in the UK wouldn't really be tactical ones in most manners except the size, given the delivery methods.

Yeah, tactical ones would be designed to be ground-bursts, I'm sure, almost entirely. I know that there was a few designed to go off further up, though, to take out waves of aircraft.

Lordganon 02:45, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

I quote direct from wikipedia:

The principal military advantage of an air burst over a ground burst is that the energy from the explosion (as well as any shell fragments) is distributed more evenly over a wider area; however, the peak energy is lower.

Nuclear weapons ''The air burst is usually several hundred to a few thousand feet in the air to allow the shockwave of the fission or fusion driven explosion to destroy the largest possible number of buildings, military units or vehicles, etc. This also minimizes the generation of irradiated soil and other debris (fallout) by keeping the fireball from touching the ground, limiting the amount of additional debris that is vaporized and drawn up in the radioactive debris cloud. For the Hiroshima bomb an air burst 1800 to 2000 feet (550 to 610m) above the ground was chosen "to achieve maximum blast effects, and to minimize residual radiation on the ground as it was hoped U.S. troops would soon occupy the city".''

This shows that an airburst blast would've been the preferable option, (even in cities) max damage, minimum radioactivity left over as fall out. After all, as it states, you usually bomb an area in order to take it over not just destroy it totally.

so air burst, max damage, min radioactivity. Ground burst, prob same amount of damage (roughly) but far more radioactivity.

--Smoggy80 12:56, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS=

Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process). {C

Obsolete article resurrected by Arstar. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question concerning this article, who currently is the caretaker? I ask because amongst my other work I have been studying up on Iceland out of curiosity and feel I could flesh this out more so it would be realistic. However, I don't wish to intrude on someone else's project. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 15:43, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it is Arstar. I think if you ask though he would be willing to let you takeover. I do believe he is trying to shorten his list of proposals. Mitro 19:32, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I spoke with him and he gave me the okay to move forward.--Fxgentleman 03:45, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thought I'd leave this note here - that I left on its talk page quite some time ago - but the strike list on this article isn't plausible. Lordganon 07:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

This page has been sitting here for over a year, and I handed it over to Fx a while back. Is it at least stub suitable, or should it be obsolete? Arstar 07:31, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

No in both cases. There are major issues with it so we cannot graduate it in any form, yet, it is an article on an established nation, so we cannot mark it as obsolete. Lordganon 07:34, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I am still working on the article and intend to complete it along with Greenland. The only issue I am aware of as of this date which was raised had to do with the strike zones I selected. The areas I selected would have been legitimate and logical military targets of a Soviet attack: NAS Keflavik, the Keflavik Airport, and the Distant Early Warning (DEW) radar stations located in Sangerdi and Hofn.

Although the Doomsday scenario does revolve around a Soviet attack based on the assumption they are under a sudden assault, there is nothing to indicate the Soviets would not have followed up with bombers in a secondary attack on targets. The DEW radar system was designed to detect such incoming bombers. This would make it a target by the USSR. Although this aspect of the war to the best of my knowledge has not been explored in any great way, it was established in the history of Victoria that coastal Canada came under attack by Soviet bombers and they were shot down.

The destruction of DEW radar stations in Greenland and Iceland coupled with the effects produced by the HANEs over the continental US would help to punch holes in the network and leave North America vulnerable to any bomber attacks from that direction. I can not explain why other writers never elaborated on the fate of DEW sites in the US, Canada, and the Faroe Islands. It may have been a simple oversight given how many areas there are to cover. The article on Alaska speaks to multiple attacks on the Aleutian Island chain against military targets. Although it did not specifically clarify the exact targets, there were DEW stations in the islands which almost certainly would have been among sites hit. --Fxgentleman 16:33, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

Except for the fact that not a single part of the DEW network was in range of the HANE blasts. By 2,500 miles, at least.

Not a single one of these sites was hit, anywhere. To hit a detection site after its job has been accomplished holds absolutely no point. We've never elaborated about the bombers because whether a site is hit by one or a ICBM doesn't really matter.

And the Alaska article is not referring to them, either. Why? Because those stations in the Aleuts had all been closed in 1969. What it would be referring to is Cold Bay Air Force Station, and likely Unalaska as well.

So, as stated: They were not hit, anywhere.

Lordganon 17:12, December 3, 2011 (UTC)

I stand corrected regarding the stations in the Aleutians. The sources I read gave me the impression they were open in 1983. I went back and checked and you are correct. You are also correct that the DEW system ran across the northern border of Canada and Alaska. I was thinking of the Pine Tree Line and the Mid Canada Line which I mistakenly lumped in with the DEW network. It was these two that I was thinking of when I made a reference to the HANE since some of their stations would fall under the EMP line. So my error on those points.

However, could you elaborate further why you think DEW sites would not be hit?

The DEW radar stations were designed to detect bomber(s) with a certainty of at least 99.9% that by the time they crossed the line the bomber(s) location, track direction, and time of detection had been ascertained and transmitted to NORAD. Once the last of the bombers passed the line then yes, you would be correct that the station's purpose has thus been served and to strike it would be pointless because what it was created to detect has already gone through. The question I would have to ask is since the bombers would have to be launched from the USSR and pass over the Polar Cap to reach Canada and the US how long would they take to reach the radar line?

Lets hypothesize for a moment. We know the Soviets received the warning at about 3:40 GMT+3 and launched their ICBMs roughly five minutes later. Since I don't know how long it would take to scramble Soviet bombers lets say hypothetically the first bombers begin scrambling at the same point the missiles are being launched and are airborne roughly ten minutes later or 3:50 GMT+3. At this point we have different groups of bombers inbound. I suggested the radar sites in Iceland were hit at about 4:05 GMT+3. I do not know how long it takes a bomber to leave its base and reach the radar line. But I don't believe that all the bombers would have already reached and over flown the radar line by that time. So logically until that last bomber goes over their existence creates a viable threat to the effectiveness of the Soviet bombers. Thus an early attack on some or all the stations would be a reasonable action on the part of the Soviets. My suggestion is this, I can reduce the attacks to missiles carrying conventional explosive warheads given they are small targets. This would serve the purpose of neutralizing the target while leaving a insignificant footprint on the area. What do you think, I am open to thoughts?--Fxgentleman 00:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have always understood that this scenario was basically an accidental war fought long-distance by ICBMs and some SLBMs. If there had been scrambled bombers, they would have been sent out by both the USA and the USSR, and perhaps many NATO and some Warsaw Pact nations as well. All of this means planes in place to shoot down each other, and perhaps a few incoming ICBMs and SLBMs. The accidental war would have been over the Arals and Canada as Bombers met each other. We don't have this in any of our story lines. There is some of it, but not over the lower 48 states. The damage was done by the first strike almost exclusively, as I interpret it. There may have been waves, but as I understand it, it was mostly over in a few hours (except for border wars such as that in Alaska). Introducing bombers is too much for the time line as we have it to absorb, in my opinion. SouthWriter 05:24, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Having reviewed and considered South's comments I have gone ahead and removed any mention of the narrative regarding the DEW stations. I have to say though it is indeed very confusing from my point of view. I agree with South in that I always subscribed to the theory of how the war evolved, sudden rather than planned using just missiles in the US and Canada. The Victoria article when I read it a time ago had changed my thoughts regarding the whole business since we now had bombers flying in from Russia to attack. I just took it on faith it was simply another part of the story which had never been addressed. Under those conditions I felt DEW stations could not be ignored for the reasons I addressed earlier since they would just be to much of a threat for the Soviets to not strike. Hopefully, sometime in the future, another writer will take up the challenge of addressing the bomber aspect of what occured so we can square that part of the war. --Fxgentleman 06:39, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Basically, Fx, it's what you said in all of that: By the time the bombers arrive at the line, everything (for all purposes) is known. Their existence, and a lot of the details, would already be known by the destruction of any of them could occur. I figure there'd be a few minutes delay with the bomber launches, but it still stands. Destroying them, in this regard, really doesn't accomplish much of anything.

And, too, the radiation and EMP from such blasts would screw up any future waves a fair amount.

By the time the bombers get to anywhere that they can be harmed, the EMP and many ICBMs have gone off, crippling a lot of them. Same goes for their adversaries, and most people to whom the data would mean much of anything.

It's really a waste, at best. Largely, entirely ineffective. They know about them the entire time, so there is no point in destroying them.

As for Victoria.... really, those ones would have likely flown over the edges of the continent, and survived the EMP, etc. like that. To assume that the bombers would all fly straight is a little off, in my opinion.

Past that, as South said.

Lordganon 10:10, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

One of the things I learned during my recent research was in 1983 there was an active discussion on going about revamping the entire DEW radar line. I was surprised in my reading to find out how bad a shape the network was actually in, reports describing it as decrept. Soviet bombers could fly under 10k feet and avoid it. Apparently the Soviets had a far better and more effective network to stop US bombers. The Reagan administration was discussing as of 4/83 of spending $2 billion to revamp the entire network and trying to force Canada to cover part of the cost. This data was part of the reason my thoughts were finally swayed. Based on all these points, Soviet bombers would have had no real concerns. Nice to find out how well we were protected in 1983. --Fxgentleman 15:31, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

An obsolete article resurrected by myself. Its a brigand group made up of former fraternity guys who banded together shortly after Doomsday when chaos broke out across Central Illinois. Mitro 16:18, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Defunct state, armed faction sans territory, something else? Benkarnell 23:06, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * More like what I am doing with the Chinks in Eureka. Just another group of survivors who became hard cases. Mitro 04:20, November 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello, I have a few ideas that in process that would help expand and grow the Illini Republic area. I may start contributing soon, I just need to finalize how I am going to approach the topic. I am open to discuss, contribute, collaborate, or critique.
 * Jroak 06:48, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Considering our rules, the only thing you're doing is discussing. Lordganon 07:24, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

The history of the Illini Republic can be made in narrative form, with bits and pieces of documentation and documentaitonal clippings chronicalling post-Doomsday events. Based on the Doomsday history of Illinois, a timeline of events can be established chronicaling the evolution of a midwest unversity town into a land of lawlessness. I am approaching this from three lines of ATL historical narrative.

1. At the time of Doomsday, a senior undergraduate student at the University of Illinois, who is originally from Chicago, now finds himself in the role of a student, refugee, graduate student researcher, and later one of the last official administrators of the University. The role of the University during this time, its attempts to stay neutral, and an evacuation of "knowledge," both books and people, to Purdue University in West Lafayette, IN shortly before the local civil government collapsed in 1986.

2. An Illinois Central Gulf railroad engineer whose knowledge of the region's current and former rail routes allows for resource scavenging and for those who want out, a less vulnerable way to travel than staying on the main roads. With help from other surviving Champaign-Urbana (C-U for short) railroad workers, many of whom would have been incapacitated from the strike at Chanute AFB, if they had been on yard duty that night, prove valuable in this capacity. Air Force technicians who were in Champaign at the time also prove helpful to keeping basic machinery usable. But not everyone wants to play nice with this collective knowhow of knowledge.

3. Bulletins and minutes from post-Doomsday news spreads and campus meetings.

Premises (Still formulating details)

The C-U area would have been immensely affected by a strike at Chanute Air Force Base in Rantoul, IL. As a training base for aircraft, ICBM, and eletronics maintainance, its target value would to be deny repair and recovery. I'm going to life hard and say it received two hits in the 100Kt range.

Aside from flash and blast damage, if the winds were from the south, this would blow some of the short term fallout away from C-U. I'll deal with this detail when I find out what weather conditions were like that day.

Any college town (and rural area) for that matter will have more than its fair share of 20 year old vehicles. 1983 C-U will be no different. Vehicles that survived the EMP and can run are highly sought after. Unfortunately this will create some initial problems in post-Doomsday.

Refugees from Decatur would probably find it easier to come to C-U via I-72. Refugees from the Chicago area are few in number and start to die relatively quickly. Refugees from Indianapolis travel west on I-74. Those who settle in Danville have fare better than those in the C-U area.

Any thoughts? Jroak24.1.29.37 07:34, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

The majority of that is things that aren't possible, or are at best logic holes. The three points are not possible.

Past that....

Winds go east-northeast. Meaning that the area gets whacked with radiation from Springfield and Decatur.

Only blast, and likely bigger than that.

No fuel, no vehicles. Simple.

Only survivors from Decatur could get there, at all. And that's kinda doubtful

And you've missed the point of this. These are brigands in the ruins. With little to nothing to do with the previous inhabitants.

See previous statement, too.

Lordganon 07:57, October 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, JR, thank you for your interest. That you have done some work on getting this article - only a place holder for at least a year - on the road to realization is commendable. The proper protocol is to ask to 'adopt' the article, seeing that it has been dormant for so long. Mitro is no longer an active editor, but he does check his messages occasionally, so his permission should be easy to come by.


 * As for the scenario, make sure you read what Mitro wrote on the Eureka page and aim at getting to that point in much the same way as did the "Chinks." As Mitro wrote in February the Illini Republic was founded by "University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign fraternity and sorority members who banded together during the collapse of Urbana–Champaign." There is, therefore a link to the "previous inhabitants." However, the evacuation of Urbana-Champaign and the university may not have been as smooth as you see it.


 * The train and the cars would be available with only what fuel was in their tanks. Fuel out of storage facilities would be accessed only by mechanical pumps that would have to be manually operated - and then only if authorities could keep them out of the hands of bandits and such. That being said, the cars would be used sparingly, and possibly only by whatever emergency governments that arose. However, the evacuation by auto would have been possible in cars with a fair amount of fuel even with low efficiency, for the trip was only 90 miles.


 * Assuming for a moment that a locomotive with adequate fuel had been available, please remember that tracks may not have been clear everywhere. And without communications the engineer would not know of any blocked tracks. Exit during comparitively quiet times would have been possible, though.


 * All that being said, the evacuation would only been nominally successful, given the picture that Mitro draws in his Eureka article. I would not encourage anything like the orderliness that you portray in your notes. SouthWriter 20:38, October 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just a question here, but it seems a bit unlikely that the local government would survive so long as three years. The Japanese government nearly collapsed in WW II despite just two cities (Hiroshima and Nagaski) being nuked. Even then, it still had quite a bit of power, but it was an entire country. Here, most of the authorities would be shocked to the level of the refugees. As long as we are assuming that the air force base was nuked, army support would be very limited. I would estimate a local government collapse at a year at the most.
 * 98.14.126.83 01:16, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 16:42, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is this going anywhere? Lordganon 14:59, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I'd be willing to allow someone to work the kinks out of it. I just have one request. I request that it is not to be annexed by another nation.

Yank 15:05, April 6, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose in light of that, and time passed, would there be objections to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon 05:13, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Put up for adoption. Lordganon 11:44, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Thought I'd leave a note here to say that this page has been adopted by a new user, Martin1983. Note, too, that he, despite the name, seems to have nothing to do with Owen. Lordganon 22:55, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

.....Or not. I undid all of that stuff he put in, as per policy. Lordganon 10:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * So...can we obsolete this? Mitro 19:48, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's still up for adoption. So, no reason to do that, I'd think. Lordganon 01:07, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

This article has been up in the air for a year and a half. Just because it's up for adoption doesn't mean we should keep it. Unless Yank works on it in the next week I think we should obsolete it. Arstar 02:09, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

The article is perfectly valid, and just needs to be completed. So, I have to oppose that idea. Lordganon 11:12, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Article created by Smoggy. Mitro 03:34, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

So what is going on with this article, Smoggy? Lordganon 22:43, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I did put it up for adoption, however the only person interested concerned me with their writing style, and i was warned by other users that it may be a bad idea to give it over to that editor. As far as I'm concerned its still up for adoption?--Smoggy80 18:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Way I figure it, move parts of this to the other page, and turn this one into a redirect. Something I could do later this week. Lordganon 18:26, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

What would you think of that, Smog? Never did it because I never heard back from you. Lordganon 01:26, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Article created by Arstar. Mitro 03:42, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how I can make this work at the current moment as it was one of several dozen projects I started that aren't appropriate to the direction my projects took over the past year. Any objections to me making it obsolete? Arstar 01:12, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It's good, just needs a little work. As with a lot of things you left, it's on my list of things to finish, and I'll get to it at some point. Lordganon 10:15, December 4, 2011 (UTC)T

I'm going to try to make this article work by starting it over from scratch. Arstar 01:51, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Seoul
It is a city proposal by me, PitaKang. PitaKang 01:24, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I think it's ready. Any objections? PitaKang- (Talk|Contribs) 21:51, February 23, 2011 (UTC)

Same one as I've told you several times now with regards to the terrorists. Lordganon 05:08, February 24, 2011 (UTC)

So.... no more objections? PitaKang- (Talk|Contribs) 22:30, March 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * What does LG have to say? Mitro 03:05, March 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * He's fixed it, though sloppily. Lordganon 11:05, March 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you guys have any suggestions to make it better? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:29, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

There's now a whole series of objections to this on its talk page. Lordganon 13:13, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed those objections, so are there any more? PitaKang- (Talk | Contribs) 19:20, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

You have fixed one of those objectives, and smoggy just gave you a couple more. The article is still somewhat unrealistic in its wording and what it seems to say. You also still neglect to mention that the entire region is under military control, and that your presented view of the area is thus too... pleasant, I suppose, is a good word. 

Also, Desert was indeed correct about much of the article being things that should be on the Korea article. They should be removed to that location.

Lordganon 02:25, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

Is this page going to be amalgamated into the Korea page? as it doesn't really add anything that is not already on the Korea page (in fact in places it contradicts the Korea page)--Smoggy80 16:32, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Parts of it are going to have to be, but most of it would form the article still. Pita seems to have dropped off the face of the earth, however. Lordganon 16:59, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

Anyone have any objections to changing this to obsolete? Pita's dropped off the planet and i think everyone apart from Pita realises this should be part of the Korea article--Smoggy80 17:20, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

None. BrianD 02:07, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

Funny enough, I have to oppose making this obsolete. While as it stands this thing is not close to possible, and much of it would go instead on the Korea article, it is still on some level a valid article. Rather than obsolete it, how about we put it up for adoption instead? Lordganon 22:39, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

If the article is viable, then adoption is fine. BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Put it up for adoption. However can I add, that it should be reviewed for parts to be transfered to the Korea page before any more work occurs on it?--Smoggy80 18:11, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I have now marked it as up for adoption. Lordganon 01:00, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I started an article on the actives of the Former Beatles(Paul, Ringo,George) following the 1983 Doomsday Event. I hope to finish it soon. Is this an acceptable topic to write about? If not please let me know. (Jer1818)


 * I've moved this section from the archive page to this one. Let's see where the page goes, since for now it's just a recap of the OTL biographies up to 1983. Benkarnell 04:56, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Welcome, Jer! I've made a few comments on the article's talk page. BrianD 06:49, March 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I updated Paul's and Ringo's Postdoomsday activities...read them and let me know what you think Jer1818 22:16, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Issaquah-Snoqualmie
I made an article stub for a survivor community in the Cascades near where I live. The geography of the area forms a pretty protected valley in Issaquah (It's located between two mountains and home construction on those mountains had yet to begin in earnest in 1983 - they arrived as a result of the Microsoft boom. This also means that the population would be smaller than in OTL, since Issaquah's growth spurt didn't happen until this past decade.) There are a lot of highlands and whatnot in Issaquah proper to protect the city from the shockwaves 25 miles away in Seattle, although some radiation would probably occur there too.

Snoqualmie itself is located further up the mountains, near the town of North Bend. Don't worry, I'm not trying to turn North Bend into a massive empire like *cough* certain people did, but its protected up in the mountains and is far enough away from Seattle to suggest that it would have survived almost completely intact. I propose Issaquah-Snoqualmie as a minor conurbation of small communities stretching through the Snoqualmie pass from up in the mountains to the foothills. Pasco is pretty far from this area but likely enjoys healthy trade with Issaquah-Snoqualmie thanks to their outposts in central Washington (Ellensburg), as is established in canon. Again, to reiterate, I'm not trying to transform the Issaquah-North Bend corridor into a mighty Cascade empire - it would be a self-sufficient, hectic and maybe even wild-west style survivor town in most of the 1980's saddled with refugees from the Seattle/Bellevue area.

On the note of Victoria, I doubt that at least until the mid-2000's or even now, they would have bothered crossing an irradiated wasteland to get to Issaquah, even though the communities between Issaquah and Snoqualmie technically fall within their claimed territory.

Issaquah, culturally, was much more of a rural and exoburban city in the 1980's, even though today it's full of rich assholes (My personal bias. Fuck those guys.)

KingSweden 19:53, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, looking at the much more zoomed in map on the Victoria History article itself I think it could work in some form. Issaquah is on the border line, and the other community is definitely outside of it. Though, that map is a little old, so.... Definitely could have lived through the blasts, etc. mind - radiation would have went to sea. Oer, thoughts? Lordganon 22:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

I've got no problems. Victoria is too busy with the Olympia and Aberdeen areas and bringing the newly aquired south into the fold, along with establishing a border with Astoria to worry about some small mountain towns.Oerwinde 09:54, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

So, what's the plan for this one, guys? King, are you planning on doing anything with it? Lordganon 22:45, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Are there any objections to making this a stub?Arstar 22:43, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. There is no reason at all to even consider it at this time. The article is far from done, and unlike the stubs, has entire sections blank. Lordganon 09:39, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Superior Election Articles

 * 1984 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1986 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)
 * 1994 Republic of Superior Congressional Elections (1983: Doomsday)

Though created by an anon, they allegedly follow canon and were originally red linked. Mitro 17:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

The first two have no basis in canon at all - virtually no reference to numbers and political positions of the two parties or the like with the congress of Superior exist for that era that actually indicate things one way or the other like this. The independent numbers are.... not possible, either. The 1994 one is the only one with some actual accuracy as it currently stands, though even it has to be massively re-written. Lordganon 20:21, March 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well I think we should mark the first two obsolete and put the last up for adoption. Any objections? Mitro 18:31, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure this won't come as a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention to the newsbits and edits with Superior I've been doing lately, but I'm adopting these articles, and am going to be adding many more of them. Lordganon 00:11, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

President ones first, then congress, then governors. Lalalala.... 07:15, August 26, 2011 (UTC)

All right, I believe I'm done with the Presidential elections. The 2012 one is ongoing, obviously, but should be graduated too, I think.

Any objections to their graduation?

Lordganon 14:46, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

All right, they've been graduated. Lordganon 23:00, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Arstar, why on earth did you do that? The articles that I asked about were graduated months ago. Lordganon 11:17, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Article created by Crimson. Mitro 17:25, March 10, 2011 (UTC)

So, where is this going, Crim? Lordganon 22:47, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Article by Sunkist. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

So what are we doing with this? It's pretty obvious that Sun's more or less abandoned it. Should we obsolete it? Or what? Lordganon 22:48, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Anything done with it has to tie into Kentucky. I could adopt this, as part of my proposal to flesh out the DDTL state of Indiana. BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

That would work well, though I'd talk to Zack about it first. Lordganon 05:30, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Article by South. Mitro 19:42, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

I've worked on a few paragraphs. Let me know what you think. SouthWriter 01:46, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

South, you still working on this? BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Brian, since I am no good at creating fictional characters, would you mind adding to this article. You can use the characters that you created for me earlier. I can't get into the evil mindset the way you can. The article can be an extension of your fascinating one on Athens. It will make a great addition to the post DD history of the tri-state area. SouthWriter 04:13, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

This is an article by an ambitious and energetic young man going by the user name "God Bless the United States of America." We call him GB for short. He is very young and just learning the ropes, so let's all try to help him in this first attempt at a full article in 1983DD. This is a small isolated community on the coast of North Carolina. It needs help so as not to run all over what we know about Elizabeth City and the Outer Banks (OB being primarily "mine" so far). SouthWriter 14:07, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks South for getting the word out, well anyone can edit the article, I see it as a chance to be another collabertive article for the senior editors to join in to, and allow us young bloods to help. God Bless the United States of America 03:18, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

So what's going on with this article? Lordganon 22:50, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Is GB even around anymore?BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

LG inadvertantly 'scared' GB away soon at the end of August. He played a map game or two until mid-September, and then, I'm guessing, he went back to school. As for this article, I did some rewriting on it, and he invited everybody to edit as they wished. LG and I once had to save the article from unwanted changes by Outer Banks resident "Alexanders," but I guess the article is "mine" by defalt. What changes or additions do you guys suggest to get it moved to "stub" status? SouthWriter 04:32, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Far as I can remember, all it really needs is to be done to be graduated. For stub status, any history at all would likely make it good for that. Lordganon 05:31, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

The Ipswich Incident
Ongoing article. Semi-collaboration between Verence and I. Fegaxeyl 21:27, May 1, 2011 (UTC)

Feg, Verence, what's the story here? Lordganon 22:52, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Proposal by GB not previously put here. It's got..... major issues, but is indeed a start. Lordganon 11:18, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Is GB still the owner of this article? I have read through it and would like to take it over and expand it based on research I have been doing and also bring it into line with what I am doing for Delmarva. If anyone can let me know, thanks.--Fxgentleman 13:24, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he is. And you are definitely the person who should take over and do the article. Lordganon 14:27, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

What's the progress on this article? FX, you still want to take it over?BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

By my best guess, he's doing some research and will get to it when he's ready. Lordganon 05:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Survivor state in former Slovakia, by Jnjaycpa. Here's hoping that it doesn't end up like all of his other proposals and he actually works on it. Lordganon 08:00, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

....I suppose I'm not shocked to see this, but since I posted that there has only been two days that it has been edited, and virtually all the problems and blankness remain. Yet, Jnjaycpa has been around. So, what should we do with this? It is somewhat valid, so I'm really not of a mind to make it obsolete. Maybe make if ofa? Lordganon 22:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

OFA works for me. It would be good to see Jay return to it and finish it out. BrianD 03:33, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I have now marked it as open for adoption. Lordganon 01:01, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to request this article for adoption. Gatemonger 17:31, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

You don't need to ask if it has the banner. Power to you, Gate. Lordganon 01:41, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Article by Feg and Vegas. Lordganon 11:32, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

It appears to be all finished now, so any objections to graduation?--Smoggy80 14:54, August 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * One thing I noticed: No casualties or losses mentioned or listed on the template. I think it needs to be fleshed out just a bit, but I don't know much about 'battle articles' (the only war I did was incorporated into the main article).


 * Before we graduate this one, and the one below it, I thought I'd point out the irony of the two being adjacent: The Invasion of Kent & Superman! :-)


 * SouthWriter 04:56, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. And, too, the invasion goes from 15th May, 2011 to 2nd June, 2011, but only May 15th-17th is written down. Not even any idea what the consequences/results are, either.

Basically, it is over, but there's no events listed right now. We could probably get away with stubbing it, but... I would really rather avoid that.

Lordganon 06:54, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Well, since then Vegas has added a little to this, but it remains mostly the same. Feg, Vegas, what's happening with it? Lordganon 22:59, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Article by a new user for the Nordic Union member of Denmark. Currently, it is horribly formatted and filled with errors in general. Lordganon 05:00, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

Article by me about post-Doomsday Tanganyika. Caeruleus 20:35, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:08, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

The idea that all of these states would have good relations with the Tanganyika remnant and join that organization makes no sense at all.

Same goes for the situation in most of these states. Have a good, hard, long look at where the economic power in the nation actually is, and where is actually poor: it's not how you show it, at all.

Lordganon 08:29, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * They have good relations with the Republic of Tanganyika for two reasons. First, they have to if they want access to their ports. With Mozambique having a civil war to the south and Kenya allying its export policy with that of Tanganyika's, if they want access to wider markets, they have to be nice to Tanganyika. Second, Tanganyika rejected its goal of reunification in 1990, which removed the immediate threat it presented to the newly indepedent states.


 * Tanganyika controls the ports, the commercial capital, most of the region's industry, and the only operational gold mine. At the very least, Tanganyika would be wealthiest because it could tax any exported through its territory. However, if you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it. Caeruleus 16:32, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you have a good long look at your EAC article. It specifically states that unifying the area is its long-term goal. So no, it has not rejected it.

Ports are overrated whenever you write something. Note the big lake in the northeast? The population around that lake is self-sustaining, and not dependent on the rest of the area or those ports at all. Largest inland fishery in the world. There is no economic pressure that can be done to them, for they have no need to export.

Operational Gold mine? No gold mines were operational at the time. Most only opened in the late 1990s, and the others went out of business by the 1950s. And they would all be in the breakaway states, too.

Commercial Capital means little - and that city would be where most deaths and refugees occur. With exports and imports gone or sharply reduced, the "commercial" aspect goes.

So does industry, which is almost non-existant. Especially since until recently, there was basically nothing in that direction. Most of the exports and agriculture are from the breakaway states. Those on the lake are going to have a higher GNP ratio than Tan~ itself. It's also dependent on them for food, which you failed to notice.

Who's got the economic power? In some regards, Tan~ has some but overall? Not them, by a long shot.

And all that avoids entirely the aspect of relations in general. These states revolted. And you are trying to make them have good relations. That is ridiculous. A few of them, sure. But all? That is just not possible. Each and every time a nation has broken up, especially by force, not all of the parts have been friendly. And yet, you have them all loving each other. That's impossible and makes no sense whatsoever.

Lordganon 02:04, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

Please read through the new updates. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:17, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement, though you missed the point about economic power, and population.

The states on the lake are not dependent on the rest of the nation, in any real way. The population overall fails to include any real number of deaths or refugees.

Lordganon 06:30, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * The economic power portions have been revised. The poulation is fine. It's 10 million less than OTL, which is more than enough to count for the number of deaths and refugees. Caeruleus 07:20, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No. Half the article reads like it is an article on the remnant, the other half reads like an article on the area. If it is overall, that may work as a population. But for the remnant, not in the least. By and large, it appears to be the remnant.

Lordganon 08:01, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the total population of the entirety of Greater Tanganyika. Caeruleus 08:19, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Then you need to re-write the article. That is only about a quarter of what it actually says. Most of it is an article on The remnant. Lordganon 09:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It progresses from talking about the remnant to the survivor states, while remaining somewhat focused on the remnant in the context of the other survivor states. After a certain point, "Tanganyika" stops referring to the remnant and begins referring to the region. I'll go through and change references to the region to Greater Tanganyika" in order to clarify that. Caeruleus 13:34, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better. Lordganon 19:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Article by me about Kenya. Caeruleus 19:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

This article is complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 04:06, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes.

That this remains intact while most of Africa collapses, despite the major drought just after Doomsday, makes no sense. Earlier on, you had a couple of the provinces go. And yet, then you had them re-join. That is not plausible.

Lordganon 08:33, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And, to add, there's several statements in it, such as "largest economy in East Africa" which are suspect, and probably not true at all. Lordganon 08:56, September 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's the largest economy in East Africa OTL and that would hold true here as well.


 * As for the drought, droughts don't necessarily cause a collapse of government. The only thing that is assured to happen is a higher death toll for the duration of the drought. During droughts, Kenya does need food aid, but it still produces enough to feed a majority of its population. At most, only a few million have ever needed food aid and, even without aid, the situation could still be handled by the government. Caeruleus 16:04, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, you don't make statements like that. Ever. And, for the record, it is very likely that they are not the largest economy. With the reformation and such that occurred in Ethiopia, it is likely that it, Mozambique, or Madagascar hold the title anyways. Especially given the economic aspects relied on in Kenya, which would have collapsed the economy quickly.

You'll note that I did not say it collapsed. A dictatorship, with a coup attempt barely a year prior, in a multi-ethnic - very multi-ethnic - state with regional divisions. Otl, with massive relief getting sent to them, half of the herds died, and massive amounts of crops. More than half the country is drought-prone. The blasts are on record as warming the earth slightly, making it a touch worse. And, the drought ran from 1983 until 1985, too, throughout all of East Africa. To boot, after that period there was massive floods to make the effect even worse.

http://worldvisionnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/horn-of-africa-drought-map.png

and

http://writingtowellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/horn-of-africa-drought-map-29-july.jpg

While the two maps are from modern droughts, they show the at-risk areas well, in combination. That has long been the same. Think about it.

You have a few million starving people. And no food to give them. Did you know that the average person is only three meals away from civil disobedience? Do the math. Atl, they are going to have trouble feeding the army. Good luck keeping stability like that.

Collapse outright? Not likely. Remain whole? That's crazy.

Lordganon 05:03, September 13, 2011 (UTC)

I've made some changes. Any remaining objections? Caeruleus 03:18, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A definite improvement. But you fail to actually take the droughts into effect, at all. Lordganon 06:31, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * There's not much to be said about the droughts other than that they happened and had some effects. Caeruleus 07:15, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Not what I mean. You do not go into details about its effects, and mention it in passing, for the most part. Not only that, but a population 2 million lower, only? A fair portion of the area is constantly fought over, a few massive droughts happened, along with general chaos, and only two million lower than otl? Not plausible in any fashion.

Lordganon 08:05, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I made a minor adjustment to the population. Still, nothing really needs to really be elaborated on about the drought. It happened, there was a famine, and obviously some people died and/or suffered because of it, which contributed to political instability. What else would you like included? Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you've not gotten the point. You just mention it. It's like a non-event. That just does not work. Lordganon 09:42, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a drought. They happen. It wasn't some seismic event. What happened and what it did are pretty basic. Do you want me to include specific information about what areas were affected and death tolls and such? Caeruleus 13:38, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

A massive drought, causing many deaths and society-wide problems. And you just mention it. It's not a question of figures - though some sort of those is a must - but actually mentioning more than "it happened." Currently, you fail to do so. Lordganon 19:21, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Much better, but now you've made it sound like droughts never happen again. They will. Lordganon 21:57, October 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * How is it that there can be a blossoming of the Sahara in Egypt based on a proposed increase of rainfall by mere inches a year while insisting that the droughts and desertification in Kenya remain the same? I have been told that we cannot generally expect the weather to be predictable, but here, on the edge of the equatorial rainforest things remain the same!


 * There is no mention at all of this drought, or any since 1983 for that matter, on the Wikipedia page about Kenya. It should not be a requirement for such to be an article on this wiki either. I agree, droughts happen, and people cope. In the case of this drought, with no help from the USA in 1984, there would have been a few thousand more deaths - maybe even a million in the poorer regions. The people affected, though, are not those who would revolt after a few days. They live day by day any way, gladly receiving aid when it comes, coping in other ways when it doesn't.


 * Meanwhile, back in Nairobi, well away from the suffering, life goes on. The army might fight the neighbors who take advantage of the drought, but the government would at the same time reach out to the Indian Ocean community for aid (Malyasia, Indenesia, and Australia, especially) when the emergency of the famine developed.


 * This is a very good article, though it might be improved with mention of coping without US aid in the particular emergency. I am in favor of graduating it in spite of the lack of dealing with the drought. However, I would say more attention should be shown as to how the new connections with New Britain, Australia and New Zealand would come into play when droughts inevitably come. SouthWriter 18:18, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

South, the Sahara has almost nothing to do with the rainfall, and everything to do with redirecting the river partially.

Google "Kenya drought" and either "1983" or "1984." You'll find that there was a drought then that otl, effected 200,000 people greatly even with massive food imports. This drought is referred to as one of "the most severe resulting in loss of human life and livestock, heavy government expenditure to facilitate response and general high economic losses of unprecedented levels." Which, otl, was followed by massive flooding in 1985. These droughts, btw, hit the region every few years, and especially hard every ten years or so - in 1974, 1984, 1994, and 2004, otl. These hit the entire region. 50-75% of cattle died before food aid came otl - and here, it's not coming. There was severe food shortages, too. This drought has even been called the first in the last century by some. Food crops were 50%, in the case of corn, to 70%, in the case of wheat, lost to it in Kenya. This is a drought that killed three million people in the region. Millions in Kenya were dependent on food imports to survive. And here, there isn't any.

Ever hear the addage "The average person is three meals away from civil unrest?" Think about it. The death toll will be on a disturbing level in this case.

Again, no contact with the outside world during the drought. Nor could they help at all, anyways.

And, the climate changes - wetter, etc. - are unlikely to have much impact here overall. Changes otl aren't, so why would this? And, changes here are not happening in the first few years, either. so there's no impact form them.

So, I say again: The article mentions the drought in passing. Yet, this drought has such an impact, that it needs to actually be dealt with. Caer is failing entirely in that regard.

Lordganon 05:49, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * First, I did do a search for the 1984 drought, and it is seen as a border issue. The fact that the Wikipedia article does not even mention it should be taken as a hint that the Kenyans indeed adjust to these seasonal emergencies. In fact, the actions of President Moi, not the US government, are what mitigated the effects of the drought and accompanying famine. Since trade with the US had vanished in TTL, agreements with nations in the southern hemisphere would have been used instead. This response was touted as a model for famine relief. Far from causing conditions for revolt, the Kenyan government was able to mitigate the situation getting the population through.


 * I know this is counter to my suggestions above, for they were just suggestions lacking LG's superior investigative abilities. I would say that Caer should indeed mention the effort since it even if the Wikipedia article in our day did not. It enhances the article to point out the effectiveness of the Moi regime - no matter where it was able to get outside help. If nothing else, help would be available from surplus in Malaysia and Indonesia (sources of year-long exports to the US and other nations of the north pre-DD).


 * One more thing, the deaths in this drought measured two million in the region, not in Kenya. The losses to Kenya were only 200,000 in its northwestern sector. In a nation of 30,000,000 that is hardly a disaster that would topple a strong regime like the one in Kenya.


 * Long story short, I agree that the drought should be 'dealt with,' but not that it is essential in validating the article. The drought would not, in my opinion, have altered the history of Kenya in this time line any more than it would have int our time line. SouthWriter 20:24, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, South, it is not mentioned in the Kenya article because it was not an issue there otl. However, this is not otl.

They imported millions of tons of food. Millions. That is why they were barely effected otl. Not because the government or the people was able to adjust to anything. But because unlike their neighbors, they were able to import massive amounts of food. Which is not happening here.

You say that it was the actions of the President that "mitigated the effects of the drought and accompanying famine." While that is true, you also missed what he did. He imported food. Which, as established, is not happening.

Again: They have no contact with the outside world until after the drought is long over. At best, it will be 1986 before it is restored between this area and the SAC/ANZC to any degree. And the entire matter is long gone by then.

I said in the region three million died otl. Not in Kenya. Most of those were in Ethiopia, which got no imports, and only a small amount of aid. Here, atl, Kenya gets no food imports, or aid. The impact will be worse. Far, far, worse. Half of crops in the country failed, and a large majority of the herds died off, otl, with imports of food and aid. Go from there.

So, we have millions dying. Which is a heck of a lot worse than otl. And as such, the history is drastically altered.

Caer has failed to deal with the drought itself in any degree, and it needs to be rectified before graduation.

Lordganon 23:27, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am keeping this civil, not going into addressing either of you in second person. As mentioned above, I believe there would be communication and trade with Malaysia and maybe even Indonesia, neither of which would have been embroiled in the politics in Australia or South America (neither of which had formed new alliances to any degree in 1984). Unless we are going to assume that geosynchronous satellites directly above were out of commission (see discussion at bottom of this page) and regular cables across the Indian Ocean were disrupted by by the bombs that hit one city in western Australia, then there is no reason why arrangements could not be made with the governments around the Indian Ocean for at least adequate aid, if not in the amount of the US sent in our time line.


 * I see that Indonesia had early contact with Australia and Malaysia but not with the rest of the world (Africa and South America). Malaysia seems a bit more stable than Indonesia because of its smaller population but lost a third of its land to tiny Brunei. So perhaps they would not have been quite as inclined to help an African nation. But I can't see the lack of contact in that direction as a reason. It is enough to lay out options with no need to be dogmatic on these things. This is a community effort and no one editor - not even an administrator - should have the last word on how a small African nation might have fared with the absence of the US in time of crisis. --SouthWriter 03:11, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Simple truth: as I have laid it out is the current fact. Not my opinion, or yours. You need to recognize that fact. You don't like it, fine. But as things stand, it is fact. You need to recognize that.

Past that....

To quote the ANZC history:

"Communications were restored with Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, and most of the Pacific island nations by Christmas of 1983"

Contact obvious

"....met with Indonesian President Suharto in February 1984...... He believed that Indonesia needed to move forward on the assumption that the Australia, New Zealand and Singapore markets would eventually bounce back to near pre-Doomsday levels"

Contact with Malaysia, Singapore, and Brunei

"In February, an unexpected radio message from North America came: the American President, Ronald Reagan, was alive, as was Vice President George Bush and several other staffers and cabinet members, and they were trying to find out who else was alive in this post-Doomsday world."

"No one had been able to establish contact with anyone outside the Mount Weather or Greenbrier regions, and certainly not from Canada, Japan nor Western Europe."

"The one contact other than Australia the U.S. had been able to establish was with Mexican military south of Mexico City; they learned that Mexico had survived Doomsday and was not only functioning but was apparently taking American survivors from the southwest border states."

"Bush arrived in Canberra on Air Force Two on May 6 from Auckland, greeted personally by Hawke only to be told that the RAAF lost contact with Air Force One."

Contact with American Remnants, and Mexico

And, from the Vatican, we have already established, somewhat, that contact between Mexico and the rest of Latin America is up by sometime in 1984. And that contact throughout the south, is, on some level, restored enough by April of 1987 to have most of the Southern Cardinals attend a conclave. Probably, sometime in late 1985 at the latest for contact.

Contact with rest of the Southernmost Hemisphere

Note, too, that this applies to areas from Senegal south in western Africa, and Mozambique south in the east - though, this could be made further north n the east, and probably will be. But it remains: contact and trade are restored with East Africa in the latter half of 1984 at best.

And guess what? The drought has already done its damage by then.

Your "aid" has no effect. The deaths have already happened.

As stated, Caer needs to actually deal with this. He barely mentions it. Yet, it happened. The problem here is pretty big, and obvious.

Lordganon 05:40, October 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * LG, nothing you say is fact until it is established as fact by the community of this TL. That goes for you and everyone else. Also, keep in mind that the issue of communication is under review with a majority of editors so far leaning towards changing it. If it is decided to change it, all the passages you've quoted will be invalidated. Caeruleus 05:55, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Me saying? What I have quoted is the current established fact. Until this article recognizes that or something else changes, there is no reason at all to graduate it.

And, as for the "review"? The info I quote invalidates the entire thing.

Lordganon 06:27, October 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * What LG has cited represents wide-spread utilization of communication in the southern hemisphere and even from the subtropical regions of the northern hemisphere. The communications from North America, though 'unexpected,' prove that they were operative via the communication satellites encircling the equator - one or two above Kenya, in fact. Furthermore, the fact that these particular incidents are mentioned only go to show the view point of the people involved (and the assumptions of the editors of the articles). Though the discussion is not in the "review" section, it does not mean that it is not an official process to which we need to pay serious attention.


 * The 'early warning systems' were well in place for the Kenyan government as the drought began with a failure of the "short rains" that began soon after DD (October - November, 1983). Since the government would be aware of the probable loss of the US and Europe via broadcast during the attacks if not after them, contingency plans would be made. Most of the yellow maize imported came from Thailand and the result of yellow maize being the main import caused those of means within the nation to ration other foodstuffs to compensate.


 * Without due consideration to the drought, though, the article does suffer from a loss of a good study in the alternatives the Kenyan government faced with a loss of both the US and European community. This is what this time line is all about. Though not directly affected by the nuclear war, the contacts that the Moi regime had were drastically reduced. And so, I agree that this article needs to include a paragraph of how the regime 'pulled this off' to remain stable. If that cannot be demonstrated, then the article needs to be revamped before graduation. SouthWriter 15:36, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

And now, we're off-topic. Sigh.....

Widespread? Contact in some form does not mean widespread, at all. The majority of this contact would be by ship, and minimal at best.

Actually South, they don't prove they were operative. Quite literally, there are only 4 places with any sort of contact in NA at that time - and that, with each other: Bush, Reagan, NORAD, and on a very low level the Wyoming remnant. Really, the word "unexpected" would much more so be due to their deaths having been expected. And those satellites would be unlikely - really, there are some EMP hardened sats up there, which both NORAD and the executives would have access on some degree to, though highly fractured by the EMP blasts and the ground/air bursts.

Bush and Reagan, having been airborne and in their EMP hardened planes, have functioning radios, at least to some degree. That's how they can be in contact. Between each other, it's pretty simple. Past that, the military satellites are still going to be functional at that point, at least to some degree. They would also have high-powered radios - though, their performance obviously hindered somewhat - along with, I'm sure, a few other toys we're not aware of.

NORAD is pretty obvious in itself, with the location, the story set up, and the radiation, etc. severely impacting things afterwards. But that is limited, too.

Got nothing for Wyoming, really. Where that is mentioned really needs something like "through NORAD" added to it, as it makes little sense otherwise. Proximity to NORAD, call it.

Really, those are quite reasonable. Contact between the four will be extremely sporadic, and static-filled, with little to no ability to reach beyond the continent. Sure, a few more sources may have heard them - but that means almost nothing, given codes, static, and that the further it gets, the more unintelligible it would be. That they talked to the ANZC at all through that atmosphere is a stretch, quite frankly.

Thailand. Something, as stated, only in contact with in mid to late 1984. And suffering somewhat in its own right.

No matter the plans put into place, you still have a massive food shortage. And no aid until it's more or less over, and even then in much smaller amounts than in otl. Millions will die.

As stated, my issue with this is that the drought gets a mention "in passing." Yet, it has so much more impact than that. Nor is it a "minor famine" like it says right now. It was more or less that otl - that it is going to be far worse here is a given. It's not so much the stability, in my mind, though that gets glanced over badly too, among other things that South has noted. As it stands, it's basically glanced over, being "swept under the rug," so to speak.

And that? We can definitely say is not right.

Lordganon 07:58, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Article by an anon. Only a single sentence, absolutely nothing else. Lordganon 14:34, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

No progress since I added this one. Yet, it's definitely an article to keep. Would there be any objections to putting it up for adoption? Lordganon 23:14, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Put up for adoption. Lordganon 01:05, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Adopted by Godfrey Raphael. Lordganon 01:28, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Article by GB, in the Channel Islands of California. Needs a ton of work, however. Lordganon 03:46, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this needs a ton of work. GB has asked me to oversee the development of this article due to his needing to concentrate on school work. I read the talk page, and the San Nicolas Island article on Wikipedia. The concept is challenging, to say the least. GB's only request is that it remain loyal to the CRUSA and eventually becoming a part of the USA. It seems much too small to pass as a state, much less a 'nation,' so it is going to have to end up 'attached' to some part of a willing Californian nation-state that joins the USA. I'm open to suggestions. SouthWriter 01:46, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Far as I know, the government at Placerville is the only one with any interest in the new USA, though that depends on how factions in the MSP play out. Lordganon 05:34, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's fine. That's the "California" that matters anyway, as far as re-establishing a successor state goes. I have done some work on the article, bringing early contact with Mexico (via a plane out of Baja) and the rescue of about a hundred refugees stranded on uninhabitable Santa Barbara Island. It's going to take a lot of work just to make the island produce crops. Anyway, I am up way too late already. SouthWriter 05:47, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the name of the article to "Pacifica (1983: Doomsday)" and the 'long form' is now "United Islands of Pacifica." As a result of this article, I am creating another article which I am inserting below as a new proposal.

Avalon (1983: Doomsday)
This is an article I created to go along with Pacifica. The town becomes the name of the city-state that encompases the whole island known in our time line as "Santa Catalina Island." This city-state can stand alone if Pacifica fails to be canonized. SouthWriter 18:25, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

An article by myself. Caeruleus 19:12, September 10, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation, if there are no objections. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

It is still ridiculously impossible. Simply put, it is not plausible that a bunch of breakaway states would agree to this when the major power is the one they split from militarily and the eventual goal of the organization is integration.

That is not plausible, at all. Some, maybe. But all, and many for reasons that make no sense locally? Not plausible.

And, you have no authority at all to include Zanzibar in this at all.

Lordganon 08:27, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

And none of that changes with Kenya helping to "convince" them, either. Lordganon 08:30, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

The current goal of the organization is economic integration, which is desirable to all the states in the region. The coastal states want access to the resources of the inland states and the inland states need access to the ports of the coastal states for trade. The ultimate goal of political unification is far off and may never actually happen. Just because it's a stated goal does not mean that's the reason they joined or that they expect it to happen. Plus, the EAC is a regional embodiment of PanAfricanism, an ideology that is strong among the regional elite. Even if the organization is particularly popular, the political elite in several of these countries would push for membership, like with the OTL EAC and other regional supranational organizations in Africa. Caeruleus 16:18, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

Really? Pan-Africanism? Do you have any idea at all how inflated that concept is? It would seem not. And, for the record, the political elite in the area otl do not support the concept - that will remain true here.

No. The stated goal of it, as it says on the article itself is economic and political integration. Which is precisely why many of the little states will avoid it like the plague. Little nation-states, joining a political organization whose eventual stated goal is political integration with a nation that they revolted from - that just doesn't work. At all.

Even without that being the stated goal, that is just not plausible. A few of the remnants, maybe. But all of them? That doesn't work, at all. Have a good look at that type of thing, overall, and you'll find that many of them cannot stand each other. Either they hate the remnant of the nation they revolted from, or one another. End result is the same. Which you have failed to understand or include, at all.

As already established, the inland states have no need for the coast, and vice-versa.

Lordganon 05:36, September 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I went through and made some changes. Any continued objections? Caeruleus 03:16, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Better, but you still fail to get the point about the states on the lakes - more so, Lake Victoria. They have little to no need for the coast, at all.

This also cannot graduate, sensibly, until the nations do.

Lordganon 06:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I edited the portion about the importance of the ports. If there's nothing else, this will graduate when the other articles do. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

No, you removed it. That does not change the fact that they do not need them in any form, and that the article entirely fails to get that concept. Lordganon 09:50, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * The article isn't about the ports of East Africa. Since including them as a reason for Tanganyika's economic superiority was overstated, nothing else needs to be said about them once that portion was removed. Caeruleus 13:40, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

You frequently use words like "inevitable." While the port sections were removed, the article still reads like that is the reason for joining. At the very least, no motive is given. It also still sounds like economic reasons are why things are happening, which as shown is not. the case. Lordganon 19:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Economic reasons are why things are happening. Lowering trade barriers and increasing cooperation will result in accelerated economic growth in the region, regardless of whether or not the ports are particularly important. That's the principle reason most of these states are joining. There are other reasons, like security aid for Kagera and pro-reunification leanings for Ruvuma, but the economic advantages remain a major reason for membership. Caeruleus 18:46, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

You are not getting the point. It still reads like pressure is being applied, yet there is no pressure to apply. And, again, the use of words like "inevitable." Lordganon 01:21, October 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * The inevitable comment is made in specific reference to the future direction of the TFTA, not the EAC. Other than that, there are no references to pressure being applied. Caeruleus 03:26, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what that word is in reference to, at all. You use other words that mean the same blasted thing throughout, as well. The whole thing reeks of it. Lordganon 06:43, October 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you're talking about. It doesn't reak of that, at all. Caeruleus 14:42, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Oblivious, as usual, then. You are continually referring to future things in a definite manner that would be speculation. That doesn't fly. Lordganon 01:11, October 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not. The only future things the article refers to are in the "Future Developments" section, which makes perfect sense. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about. Caeruleus 22:33, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Again, you're failing to get the point. You are referring to things as definite. Doesn't work, or make any sense, especially in the future developments section. Lordganon 07:20, October 9, 2011 (UTC)

An article by myself after the post-Doomsday Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 06:34, September 11, 2011 (UTC)

This article is now complete and ready for graduation. Any objections? Caeruleus 06:47, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

How on earth can an inland nation, more or less cut off from the outside world, especially one this poor, have any real increase in manufacturing abilities, or industry? Simply put, it won't. It would decrease. As in no fuel, or materials to make such things with.

You ignore entirely why the white population was leaving. And what would happen to them, being forced to stay.

That population is 100% unrealistic. Not only is that almost higher than the population of the entire country otl, but also ignores one simple fact: AIDS exists, and would be far worse.

Lordganon 08:22, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Small scale growth in industry, through the replication of existing industry, is possible even in relative isolation, though Zimbabwe still had access to the outside world through Mozambique. While the basic technology wouldn't have advanced much, if at all, since Doomsday. They have access to native and neighboring supplies to expand existing industry. I will clarify that section.


 * Actually, the population is fairly accurate. The OTL population doesn't include refugees that reside outside the country, most of whom fled during the 2000s with the economic chaos in the country. I accounted for the death toll during the two civil wars, kept the White population, and factored in the lack of refugees. I will revisit the figures though.


 * White Zimbabweans left because they lamented their loss of political dominance and feared what could happen. While low-level racism and civil strife existed, the mass, state-driven discrimination they feared didn't occur until the late 1990s OTL with the land seizures, which didn't occur in North Zimbabwe. Being forced to stay, White Zimbabweans would contribute to the nation regardless because their own prosperity depends on the prosperity of the entire nation. I'll also clarify those passages though.


 * As for AIDS, the first case of AIDS in Zimbabwe was in 1985, after Doomsday. With the collapse of global trade and travel, the virus would spread much more slowly. I will investigate more about that first reported case and AIDS's expansion paterns. However, the AIDS epidemic wouldn't be much worse because even in OTL, the problem was largely ignored until the early 2000s and Zimbabwe's health care system collapsed in the mid-2000s. Caeruleus 13:24, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

First reported case. In a time that AIDS cases went unreported, and almost nothing was known about it. By the end of the 1980s, 10% of the population of Zimbabwe had it. I suggest you look into how long these things went unidentified. The first recorded case in Africa - in retrospect, mind, from persevered samples - was in 1959. It's believed that one may have happened in the late 50s, too. I'm sure you can guess how rare preserved samples are. Spread to NA in about 1970, and existed in West African ports at that time.

To think that it was not present in Zimbabwe in 1983 is very foolish on your part. And without campaigns in the area against it and methods - imported methods - to help prevent it, it's going to be as bad or worse.

Your population is horrifically out to lunch.

How on earth do you get the idea that they have contact outside their small area of Africa? Mozambique barely has any in 1987. And you think Zimbabwe has it in 1985? That's not possible. They would literally be lucky to maintain what they have. Expansion just isn't possible on any real level.

And you assume that the white population would be all right? And that there would be no refugees? You have a Civil War. Do the math.

The violence against the white population likely would not get so bad, true, but as I said, they were leaving for a reason. And you, for some reason, think that would just go away. Simply put, it won't. And it will get worse, too, in the aftermath of Doomsday - who do you think will be blamed for it, and will get it by extension?

The idea that they have outside contact in 1985 is not possible, at all. And you should know better than that.

Lordganon 23:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll look into AIDS and add something about it.


 * "...horrificially out to lunch." I've got to say that's definitely a new phrase for me. Care to explain what specific problem you have with the current population numbers rather than making blanket opposition statements with no detail that make no sense, even if they are rather humorous?


 * Zimbabwe had native industrial capacities before Doomsday and had become largely self-driven in terms of industrial growth due to the isolation of Rhodesia. While the technology used would not have progress significantly, physical expansion of existing industry is well within the realm of possibility.


 * I never said the White population was "all right." The article states that they remained within the nation and contributed to economic growth. There would be issues, but the White population would have no where to flee to and would be too small to mount any significant military or political resistance. Ultimately, they would acquiese like the remaining OTL White population in Zimbabwe. And just because Westerners caused Doomsday doesn't mean the White Zimbabwean population would face massive retribution for it, especially since Zimbabwe never got nuked.


 * Like you said, the current Mozambique article makes no sense. They lost contact with everyone, even their neighbors, when they weren't even nuked. While I wait for someone to fix the article, I will continue on the reasonable assumption that regional communication would be minimally affected and communication with other unaffected states, like Nigeria and the Gulf States, would be reignitiated shortly after Doomsday. Caeruleus 00:39, September 30, 2011 (UTC)

I never once said that Mozambique made no sense. How many times to I have to tell you to actually read things, and to not put words into my mouth? Jeez.

You really do fail to get the point. Contact between South America and the ANZC is barely functional in 1987. Nor is either in contact with the Gulf States at the time. And you're trying to say that this inland nation has contact with all of them, plus the Gulf States and Nigeria, in 1985, through a state fighting a massive Civil War? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? That is not remotely plausible, whatsoever. So long as you say things like that, there is no way this can ever graduate.

You have almost an extra three million people in Zimbabwe than in otl. I've already given ample reason why that makes absolutely no sense, but I'll repeat myself: Racial tensions, Civil War, refugees, no medicine, AIDS. As stated, out to lunch.

Expansion of industry? Not happening. An increase in goods made in the home? Maybe. But Industry? Just not possible. You have no fuel but coal, remember. Or any real natural resources besides a little coal, some diamonds, and some agricultural products.

You have a Civil War, to some extent caused by problems stemming from DD, and you think the white population would be not blamed? And that they wouldn't get attacked, even without any blame? Get real. Both would happen. This is a country where they had only just finished a different Civil War in 1980, against whites. And you're saying that they would be contributing? They can still flee south to the Pretoria area, under the remnants of the SA government, or more likely, die. There is a reason why Mugabe was able to do all of the garbage he did otl. And atl, it is still there.

Lordganon 07:08, September 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * I moved back the date of contact/trade with the wider world. That was somewhat implausible. As for the population, you're still not understanding why it's so high. OTL Zimbabwe has a population 12.5 million plus 3.4 million refugees who aren't counted in the national population figures and largely fled after the economy began to collapse. That makes the total number of Zimbabweans about 15.9 million OTL. You also have the white Zimbabweans population, another 300,000 people, who never left the country. Neither the civil war, racial tensions, or HIV/AIDS would cause, even collectively, substantial declines in the population, which is why the population is what it is. I've accounted for everything and the population of North Zimbabwe will stand at 11.1 million.


 * White Zimbabweans are not going to just stop working or work. If Zimbabwe suffers, they suffer, so of course they're going to contribute. As part of the negiotiations with the former Rhodesian government, the early Mugabe government agreed to actively work to maintain racial stability, for the good of the country. Also, state-sponsored racial discrimination didn't begin until the late 1990s when the economy was already declining and most of the Whites had already left. The post-Doomsday Zimbabwean government would have an economic interest in maintaining racial stability because of the skills the White population possess. Additionally, Mugabe was assasinated in 1991, which weakened ZANU and the strong authority figure who was necessary to lead efforts similar to the OTL land grabs and subsequent rise in racial tensions.


 * As for industry, I've clarified what type of industrial expansion would occur, but some type of expansion is assured. Coal is the only fuel source you need for industry in the country and most of their industry is low-tech or labor-based, which doesn't require any technology that was not natively available. Pre-Doomsday Zimbabwe also had one of the best established industrial infrastructures on the continent, whihc would give them a strong base from which to expand. Keep in mind, the level of technology most of Zimbabwe's industry uses is still at the 1980s-level. The resources to physically build the factories and such would also be available, either natively or from their more stable neighbors. 128.135.100.102 21:03, October 4, 2011 (UTC)

Caer, I'm not a bloody idiot. I know about the refugees. You, however, are failing to get the point.

The population is too high. You have a few losses from fighting in a civil war. No refugees from fighting, no AIDS/HIV deaths, no racial tensions, and you're even adding medicines to blunt the impact that would not exist. None of that is possible or reasonable.

The drugs used to deal with that virus were developed in labs, or had the related effects discovered in labs. Largely, these were in nuked areas. At best, that tech will be at about a 1990 level. And, with a global cutoff in contact, its spread outside of Africa has been curtailed, drastically, which when combined with the destruction of cities, where most of those afflicted were, and the likely - rapid, too - fate of anyone surviving the blasts with it in the Northern Hemisphere. Simply put, outside of Africa below the Sahara it's not a major issue.

Those afflicted with it in this area are not going to last even as long as in otl. Deaths are going to be major. And given that the reasons for it spreading in this area in Africa are cultural in nature, there will be just as much problems with changing that as in otl. More hospitals and schools? Maybe a few, but thinking that a large number is possible, or would actually help to the extent you say is just not possible. The number is barely going down otl, with a ton of outside money and aid. Here, that's not happening. And, 1981 recognition of it? Ha.

The SA border guarded? That has no net effect on them leaving, really. They are still going to keep fleeing. And, after the start of the civil war, they are going to flee in droves. They are in a position of wealth. Guess what happens to those people in Civil Wars?

Yeah, Mugabe did say that. And you believe it? He only kept that around for aid. Once that started to slip, so did the policy. Think about it. Note, too I never said state-sponsored.

You also fail to think about a Civil War. Massive fighting, lots of military and civilian dead. But, a ton of refugees too. Those near the front are going to flee. Agricultural production - which goes down overall anyways, lack of fertilizer, etc. - will drop drastically. That is always the case in such a conflict.

Note, I said a little coal. Nor do you at all mention that the industry is virtually the same level as at DD. Expansion past that, not happening. Stability by modern times, somewhat possible.

The majority of this applies to the South as well.

Simply put, you are failing to take into account everything that impacts this area and the people. You have dropped the population by nearly a million, overall. Needs closer to two.

Lordganon 07:32, October 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I will take another look at the population figures, but there won't be any major decrease in the population. The deaths from AIDS won't be that major. The issue was largely ignored until the late 1990s, even with the presence of medicine. Up until that point, the lack of drugs would neither hurt nor help the infected. Also, the total number of infected is about the same as OTL. The only difference is that South Zimbabwe has a higher infection rate while North Zimbabwe has a lower one.


 * White Zimbabweans are not going to flee to a collapsing South Africa where Whites are being slaughtered by Blacks and vice versa. The fact that there's a civil war has little to do with the White population. They are a non-factor in the war and the war actually would make their presence even more beneficial due to their technical skills. The racial tension would be an issue, but racial violence would only occur if the government allowed, even if they didn't sponsor it as you said. The government would have a vested interest in maintaining racial harmony, which even existed OTL despite the White flight.


 * Refugees will exist but they will be internally displaced persons (IDL). ZANU supporters in the south will flee north and ZAPU supporters in the north would flee south. The percentage of the population near the border is fairly small, in the few hundreds of thousands. Most of these would simply flee deeper into their respective countries. They wouldn't have any options to flee anywhere else anyway. Botswana is sealed, Mozambique and South Africa were in a state of civil war, and Zambia is too far away. Very few of the refugees would end up leaving the region.


 * Zimbabwe, before Doomsday, was agriculturally self-sufficient, including with regards to fertilizer due to the isolation of Rhodesia. Also, Zimbabwe produces enough coal to meet all its needs plus it has a hydroelectric power plant. Electricity would not be a problem for the country's industry. I will go into more detail about the state of the country's industry though. Caeruleus 08:54, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Ignored. And with medicine, many died. Here, little to no medicine. Easy math to do. Figures are double, minimum. Same goes for the infected. Without the contraceptive campaigns of otl by aid groups - note, too, that the locals will not do this on their own, culturally - it will be higher than otl.

Collapsing stopping them? Not likely. At all. And, that ignores the Pretoria state. You also failed entirely to understand the point of a civil war. Everyone is fighting, and chaos ensues in any areas with it, especially, and a bit everywhere. They can, and will, be targets. The racial equality stuff was a ploy to get aid. Nothing more. Here, they have no reason to do so except a slight economic reason. And how long will that last? Not long. Especially in a civil war. Seriously, actually look at what happens in those. While the government will likely try to stop them, and denounce them, there will be mobs, etc. Whites will die, and the rest will fear for their lives. They will not sit around. Simple. Many will flee.

Really? You think that will be all that happens, only internal refugees? There is a Civil War. A heck of a lot more will flee elsewhere, being unable to get to the area controlled by their factions and facing death, etc. by staying where they are. Doesn't really matter what the situation elsewhere is, much. The place where they are is bad. No matter what, elsewhere may be better. It's an easy choice, repeated through history. They will leave. Simple. Even the Civil War in Moz~ may be a better situation. Even if not, it beats being killed by your opponents.

Civilian death tolls along fronts are sky-high. But, you never even thought of that.

Isolation? I suggest that you have a better look into that. They were largely isolated. That is one heck of a difference. They were agriculturally self-sufficient, true, but in fertilizer? I doubt it. Everyone can produce some, true enough, but the South African Government was, in fact, still involved with the Rhodesians, and they got supplies from there. You are exaggerating their industry.

That Dam is on the border with Zambia. It may remain operational, true, but not for long. It's called the situation in Zambia, plus parts - or the lack thereof. The coal is in the "south", and the power plant? Not even under construction in 1983. So yeah. One heck of a problem.

As I said, the overall population needs to go down another million. And you need to look at what actually happens in Civil Wars, especially in Africa.

Lordganon 11:07, October 5, 2011 (UTC)

I've split up the Zimbabwe article into the two states, North and South Zimbabwe. Caeruleus 15:25, September 12, 2011 (UTC)

This article is an outgrowth of my ongoing work on Delmarva. Although I adopted the article on Norfolk Naval Base, I got to thinking there should a be a larger article looking at what happened to the entire region of Hampton Roads since it included a number of military sites besides the base. I will be updating the article on the base as well as adding to the ongoing work on Delmarva, New Jersey, and other peices. I have not been able to contribute for a while due to personal reasons, however I am trying to find the time to work once again. --Fxgentleman 05:28, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Martinsson Crime Family
A proposal of a crime family in Sweden. Still updating and working on it, doing my research. But for now it looks good for me for being official. Doctor261 18:48, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

What's the story here, Doc? Lordganon 01:36, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Moravia
An article for another survivor state in the former Czech Republic.

Yank 20:33, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

What's the story here, Yank? It looks more or less done. Would you or anyone else object to graduation? Lordganon 02:09, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Latgalia
A proposal for an article on a Latgalian state in former Latvia.

Yank 20:33, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Indiana
If it is alright, I'd like to develop Indiana somewhat. My proposal is this:

Kentucky controls the south, with Evansville, Bloomington, Madison, Corydon, Richmond, Tell City, Jasper, Paoli, Salem and Columbus being the largest and most important cities

There are two main governments in the north, both split in part due to the extreme localization of affairs that followed in the wake of Doomsday (as it did across the entire U.S.), and in part because of petty political differences.

The first is in the western half, with Lafayette being the capitol. Terre Haute is part of this arrangement. It considers itself the rightful successor to the state of Indiana.

The second is in the eastern half, governed from Muncie. It considers itself the rightful successor to the state of Indiana.

Relations between the two claimants are good, but for various reasons (travel, transportation, political bickering, raiders) a state-wide State of Indiana or Republic of Indiana is still not yet practical.

Indianapolis is a black zone, as are the northeastern cities of Gary and Michigan City.

Valparaiso is home of a clan of raiders (!) which cause problems for Lafayette and Muncie.

Kentucky, and by extension the East American Alliance, has good relations with both Indianas. So does the Toledo Confederation - not all that far from Muncie - and by extension the United Communities.

BrianD 18:12, November 26, 2011 (UTC)

See my comments on the Indiana talk page. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

A proposal by Yank. Seems to be for some sort of state near the Apalachicola National Forest of Florida. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hey Yank, this is my ancestral home. (I lived in Wewahitchca, Blountstown, Bristol AND Hosford. My mom and dad met in Port Saint Joe. What do you have in mind? According to sources in the area, that forrest would have been the safest place in the world to be living in the case of a nuclear war. I won't let just anthing pass on this one. I would really rather adopt it from you, but I am willing to hear what you have in mind. SouthWriter 19:19, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

Deal. I have way too much stuff on my plate. The article is basically my riff on the idea behind New Montgomery. The living-in-a-forest part, not the rascist part.

Yank 19:25, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

I hereby officially adopt this proposal as my own. I will try to be wary of the "home town syndrome." SouthWriter 19:46, December 21, 2011 (UTC)

A proposal for the sub-unit of Denmark and member of the Nordic Union, by Brad30977. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

A proposal for a small state in southern China based in Guangxi Province. By Scandinator. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

A proposal about some recent disturbances in the capital of Cleveland. Seems to be a reflection of some sorts on the recent troubles in the UK. By Smoggy. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

What's the story here, Smog? How's it coming? Lordganon 07:49, January 24, 2012 (UTC)

going to be adding to it this week sometime, been busy with job interviews last week.--Smoggy80 19:06, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yank's proposal - it'd be with Fx and Caer as well, I figure - for the remnant state of the former Iraqi government. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Another article by Godfrey Raphael. It's about a book atl - no relation to Obama's otl one - by someone from Reading. Really, in my opinion, should get a name change, and the PoD in the "book" should change from a reverse of the timeline's PoD. Lordganon 22:32, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually quite a clever idea, having Jon Gosselin seek his moment of fame without the big family and the TV show he had in our time line. Supposing the PoD as being Doomsday would be the obvious choice. It would mean Gosselin would have to assume the politics of Reagan would have succeeded in ending the cold war as we know it did. I'd change the officer's name to not reflect the then name of the American author and his wife, though. On the other hand, how much would a survivor in the US know about pre-Doomsday Russia? It would probably be just as good to assume an American point of view since apparently the real cause of the war does not seem to ever have been discerned. Americans know that they did not fire the first shots, but that's about it. Gosselin was a pre-teen in 1983, so most of what he would write in 2010 would be from research, not memory, concerning the days before the war. --SouthWriter 04:00, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

What I meant, more so, was that this is exactly what happened otl, or nearly so. While it would be possible to be what the PoD is in the "book," I just have to doubt it, you know? Lordganon 05:36, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Second Yugoslav War
The war that me and Owner have been planning for a while. Will be ongoing for quite some time. Lordganon 08:50, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

New Livonian Order (1983: Doomsday)
Finally got around to using an idea I had a while ago. It's very much a work in progress and I'm still ironing out the details so any useful input would be appreciated.Tessitore 00:30, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've added quite a bit to the article, including a few things that I didn't have in mind when I started but later realised might be a good idea. At the moment the Order can be fairly accurately described as a cross between the New York Rangers and the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta Sovereign Military Order of Malta. ] Tessitore 22:01, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Looks near to or done now, Tess. Would you or anyone else object to graduation? Lordganon 02:10, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Jamaica (1983: Doomsday)
I figured as big a nation/state as Jamaica is, it needed a page. Suggestions are welcome. --SouthWriter 22:48, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wait,is Jamaica independent from the ECF, or is this a member-state article? Just wondering, thanks. Arstar 02:51, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

....It says in the first sentence that it's part of the ECF. Lordganon 14:53, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Kivu
A state by me on former eastern Zaire (South Kivu and Maniema to be more exact). Fed (talk) 17:00, December 22, 2011 (UTC)

I wondered when (or if) both articles are canonized, if there would be some meeting between Isiro and Kivu? Based on Isiro, it would probably be in the form of a war of some sort....GunsnadGlory 19:39, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

and isn't Kivu in Zaire? GunsnadGlory 21:26, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Kivu is in Zaire... Fed (talk) 23:11, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Which is east of Kongo... why would Kabila flee INTO his enemies territory, then found a state there? GunsnadGlory 02:03, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Zaire is a Congo - what was called Zaire in 1983 is today the Democratic Republic of the Congo, as compared to the Republic of the Congo you're referring to, Guns. There's two of them. And Kabila operated in the region, by and large, anyways. Lordganon 10:42, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

What LG said. When Kabila lost the first Congo Crisis in the 1960s, he fled to eastern Africa (Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, etc). As a fellow Kivuan, he came back to the region as soon as Doomsday happened. Fed (talk) 12:33, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I knew that... temporary fit of madness, hehe. GunsnadGlory 19:33, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Some expansion work involving Transylvania and Partium. Lordganon 02:55, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

With South's interview and diary on my blog, Chris's Hetalia crossover and some of the works on AH.com, I think it is about time that all of the 1983DD fan fiction links are gathered in one spot. Does anyone know of any other I may have missed? Mitro 16:35, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's an entire group devoted to 1983: Doomsday / Hetalia over on Deviant Art . Most of the fics focus on the Alpines, but there's also one that shows Doomsday from America's perspective, one focusing on Prussia, and a couple featuring the Brits.Tessitore 22:57, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Trying to fill in some gaps, I created this article. It explains how Cuban explorers could make it to Atlanta without much flack from the locals. SouthWriter 03:41, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Looks good, South. Can;t tell if it's done or not, yet.... is it? Lordganon 02:10, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

There isn’t much information about what happen to Zambia after doomsday, so I felt this would be a good topic for me to write my first 1983 doomsday proposal about. ~Goldwind1

Central African republic
Their isn't any information on its history after Doomsday and its pre-doomsday history is more interesting then expected though it would be a good article to make. Brad30977 03:44, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

I (accidently) started an article in the same region. Obviously, if you want, I'lll delete it, but I would prefer a merging or some other arrangement GunsnadGlory 19:21, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Coulee
An small nation between Victoria and Paso. By Enclavehunter

As I'm noted on the talk page for the page, this is not plausible. There is a whole section of history that you have missed of the region. Have a look at the Utah article.

What it amounts to is that this area is so close to Spokane, that the regime there would have destroyed it - especially since the dam would have been a target for them.

Lordganon 02:31, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I know. I changed it around to say it was an destroyed nation, does that still go against plausiblity. Enclavehunter 02:37, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think I fixed, does it still look like its talking about an surviving nation. Enclavehunter 15:28, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

The history, not so much.

Th rest still should get toned down - really, knowledge of this state would only be known from the memories of those few who fled or managed to survive, and what explorers encounter at the site.

Also, somebody needs to find the site to document it. Pasco or the new USA would be the ones likely do it.

Lordganon 21:35, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Tamanrasset
Nation in Southern Algeria/Northern Niger--Smoggy80 11:36, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Open for adoption--Smoggy80 18:25, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Tamahaq
Nation in Southern Algeria/Northern Niger/Southwest Libya--Smoggy80 11:36, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Open for adoption--Smoggy80 18:25, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu
Nation comprising of the former Indian state of Tamil Nadu Imperium Guy 16:10, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Proposal for the African nation of Malawi, by Gold. Lordganon 00:21, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Article by GR about the Filipino President. Lordganon 15:46, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? Lordganon 02:11, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Proposal by Monster. :D Imperium Guy 21:14, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

=CURRENT REVIEWS=

Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the   template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed the proposal template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be mared as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the proposal template will be removed without having to change the article.

Celtic Church
Well, looking at the Vatican stuff, I've noticed some massive issues with this article too. Not a single thing that was taken up on the talk page of the article has been done, nor does it really make much sense overall. Kinda getting the feeling that I should go over all of Mjdoch's articles and have a close look at any of the religion stuff that was written for plausibility, lol. Lordganon 13:58, May 13, 2011 (UTC)

I thought it unusual that the Celtic Church would be the one and only church in Celtic Alliance, but it was Mjdoch's article and figured that Ireland was one place where such things might work out differently post-nuclear war than in most of the Western world. That said, I second your idea of reviewing the religion-related portions of Mjdoch's articles. I'd prefer we stay as close to his ideas as possible, but that does not preclude revisions for plausibility, whether it be on a minor scale or a major scale. BrianD 16:59, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, another project for me to look into, lol. Of course, as little as possible would be changed.

The idea of the Church itself is indeed plausible - it's kinda like the Anglican Church, given what all this says about it. But the idea that the Catholic Church would become part of this thing entirely is a touch ridiculous - some, maybe even many, yes, but not all. And, that is ignoring the extremely valid points that are on its talk page as well.

Lordganon 08:08, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

The biggest concern for me, besides keeping Lahbas's work largely intact, would be to clarify the reason behind the Celtic Church: the government only wanted to deal with one official organization, not hundreds claiming to represent Christianity (especially with the Protestant/Catholic divisions in northern Ireland, and lesser so in Scotland). That actually makes sense to me, as does the government's recognition that not everyone will choose to align themselves with the official state church.

It kind of makes sense to me that initially the various churches might join together, given that the Alliance didn't really know of survivors outside its borders for years. Once it became known that South America had survived largely intact, and that the successor to Rome had established itself in Rio, the issue of Roman Catholicism within the Alliance would have to be raised. Perhaps there is still a Celtic Church today, alongside Roman Catholic parishes, Orthodox churches and however many Protestant churches and denoms would have established themselves in the country.

Since Arstar is caretaker of Celtic Alliance, what does he think about this? BrianD 05:20, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well, there really isn't a religion section to the CA article besides a link to this, and it's more of an independent article than anything. To me, that means it's only part-ways under his caretakership. And, on that note, as per his request, I'm watching his articles anyways, so the net result is that it'll just get changed. He's been on once in the last couple months, so I kinda doubt we'll hear from him anyways.

To a certain extent, that's my opinion on the article as well, though I'd make it more so one primary official organization, instead of two. Even with the government behind it, I find it highly doubtful that more tha half the population would go along with this. After re-connecting with the Pope, what you describe is my opinion too.

Lordganon 08:04, May 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Here again I think we're seeing the effects of changing assumptions. When the CA pages were written it was assumed that the people of Ireland had every reason to believe they were the last people on Earth - or close to it. In that context, the merging of the major churches is more understandable. Benkarnell 15:15, June 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * That more or less sums up what I've been working on doing with regards to the article. Will make a touch more sense in many regards like that. Lordganon 18:28, June 10, 2011 (UTC)

I think I've got about everything, now. Have I missed anything? I'm aware several things are overly simplified, but this type of thing really isn't my strong suit, so it'll have to get pardoned.

Would anyone object to dropping the review, now?

Lordganon 01:20, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

Gathering Order
I do not want to cause a ruckus, since this concept is one of the most entrenched in the time line, but a few things need to be changed to make this article, and mention of it, to be more believable.

First, the date is given as 1984 in some places and 1985 in others. This needs to be standardized.

Second, in light of the fact that the United States is only a member of NATO, it is not proper or even possible for the ANZUS authorities, lead by US (APA) president Bush, to call for the return of all NATO vehicles. Seeing that only US and British vehicles end up being listed, I would think that even the call of British ships would be subject to New Britain's approval. Only US ships (and any ANZUS craft) would be under the recall. The way "and NATO" is added in this article and others seems to indicate every European ship that has survived must leave the Mediterranean and North Atlantic and the beck and call of ANZUS. This is ludicrous, and totally implausible. SouthWriter 06:05, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Articles I find seem to have it more or less split between 1984 and 1985.

From what I can tell, all of the original dates are from 1984 - have a look at the history of the ANZS Commonwealth, Timeline, and Gathering Order articles - but Xi accidentally put it on the timeline under 1985, where it even referred to it as 1984 until it was changed by an anon without checking anywhere else a year later, lol - and no one noticed it after that. That'd be where the error comes from. No biggy, really. 1984 makes more sense, even. Though, I think there's a few references to the flight of Reagan - I know of at least one with Hawaii - that have the flight as 1985, which would need fixing, too - the problem, likely originates from the same place.

As for the NATO stuff.....

In most of Europe, I suspect that the signal would be mostly unintelligible. It's more something meant for the Pacific, and the Indian/South Atlantic Oceans. Any Allied ships would mostly tag along simply for safety and some orders. And, for instance, the British ships we know went, later on, to New Britain when contact was made, so they can leave when ready. The Order's not permanent, just a message of command, and/or safety.

Though, I agree it needs to be reworded, for sure.

Lordganon 06:53, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Picture it. The world has been nuked. As far as you know, both the NATO and the Warsaw pact have been blanket nuked out of existence. The rest of the world has either collapsed or gone down via radiation clouds, like in On the Beach. Suddenly, you recieve a general call for all NATO troops to report to Australia. Australia and the American government have survived.

Would you really not respond bescause it was the Americans, not the British or French or some such? GunsnadGlory 03:15, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Caer's gone and done it. His additions have finally gone against canon, lol.

Basically, he's trying to slip in a bunch of states in the desert of Western Libya.

Egypt, and the Greek state of Cyrenaica, have been expanding into former Libya without any resistance from anyone other than a few tribal nomads. Taking only as much as they could chew at a time, obviously, and even dividing the east up between themselves. Yet, what he's trying to do is change that canon and make it so that they stopped because of these "states." Heck, the more "ethnic" of the ones he's trying to shove on us do not actually live in the regions he's trying to give them.

Now, what he's trying to do is suddenly get these nomads to form states in the desert, along with the large towns forming a pair. Ignoring, of course, that they are nomads, and that the large desert towns are gone.

Basically, the large desert towns have expanded beyond what they could sustain on their own. And, while Libya and neighboring nations were not nuked, virtually all of them collapsed. So, there's not going to be any outside help for these ones - and as a result, they will die, go northwards to fight, or go nomad - which is what canon says they did. Only the small ones, with a few thousand, would survive. Yet, he's ignored this.

Even more so, he's put in states of nomads right against both of the aforementioned nations. Yet, their activities, and the fact that they are nomads means that this is not possible. Drawing artificial lines where none at all exist, which form into states that cannot possibly exist, as per canon.

His goal is simply to stop their expansion, which is very much so in line with the majority of his moves - i.e. making moves that aren't plausible in an attempt to weaken Greece, and any states at all associated with them, thus making his Sultanate and its long-dead Viziers stronger by relation.

His picture of how Egypt expanded is not accurate either, imo.

Now, I've told him all of this, but as is not very shocking for him, given all of the foolishness that went on with his Turkey article, he's not listening, at all.

Now, what will fix this, you may ask. Quite simple, really.

Basically?

Remove the red, orange, and pale blue "states" that violate canon from both the map on that page, as well as the content of the article. The sections about "Politics" also needs to be fixed to actually represent what the Egypt article says, not what this article currently states, which is incorrect.

Simple fix, and one he refuses to make, even when faced with the facts that it does violate canon. So, now I'm forced, after having been quite reasonable, to come here and do this. Beats arguing with him for months about something again, anyways, since I know no one will give an opinion otherwise.

Lordganon 23:11, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

As I told LG on the Libya talk page, none of this is the case. The Greece article clearly states that Greece conquered the Libyan article from various warlords. The Egypt article clearly states that Egypt made several military expeditions into the region and was eventually invited to take over eastern Libya by the tribes living there. Clearly, neither of these things imply that their expansion was without resistance as LG says.

The "states," as LG calls, are more accurately called tribal confederacies, which is what they are labelled in the article and what I told him in our discussion. They are a semi-formal ethnic coalition of the various tribes that live in eastern Libya. These are not states in the formal sense that Greece or Egypt are states. These are states in name only. It's a title their claiming, even if it's not particuarly realistic. The article states as much. As for the borders, they are rough, pourous borders. Nothing concrete or representing anything that violates canon.

The collapse of Libya makes the region chaotic, not cutoff. Desert trade and smuggling routes have existed for centuries and would continue to operate post-Doomsday. In addition, all of these ethnic groups have tribal allies in neighboring states with whom they would cooperate.

As for the depiction of Egyptian expansion, it was written by Smoggie, who wrote the Egypt article. I expanded it when I adopted the article, but everything was taken directly from the article.

Also, these tribes are only semi-nomadic. There are nomadic elements, but most of their population live sedentary lives in the various oasis towns. There are thousands of people who live in western Libya. As I have said, they would suffer somewhat after Doomsday due to the lack of investment and centralized control from coastal Libya. However, the population of this region has never increased significantly and, at the time of Doomsday, was minimally developed. The major development that led to expansion of many towns in this region, such as Sabha, didn't occur until after Doomsday OTL. Therefore, there will be population declines, but nothing catastrophic.

LG, as I said before, nothing everything I do is about Turkey and Greece. Frankly, I stopped caring about my issues with the Greece-Turkey thing a while ago. You need to move on as well. Caeruleus 04:03, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

Caer, where on earth did you get any of that from?

No, there is no mention at all of tribes in the Egypt article. Rather, it is the small surviving desert towns. This is clearly said in that article. There is nothing there about any tribes.

That is not what I said about Greece, you said about Greece, or even exactly what the Greece article says. Not in the least. The Moreans conquered the coastal cities in that regard, true enough, but the zone of control in Libya has been expanding without issue ever since. Again, something I've told him, but he doesn't notice/listen.

Even his statement about the "tribal confederacies" tells us that it does go against canon, as they cannot exist there. Areas where the nomads mostly are? Yeah, that's probably true, except in the case of the Berbers, who live in territory that is part of Greece. But any sort of organized stated, which is exactly what a tribal confederacy is? Not even close to canon. Not even remotely.

Again, Libya and all of its neighbors collapsed in some form, which is something I've told him a few times now - and he has glossed over each and every time. They ain't getting anything.

What Smoggy wrote on the Egypt article, and what is on this one, are, once again, not the same thing. And, Caer is the one who added the false description of these events to this article, not Smog. Don't tarnish her name because you got it wrong, Caer. Everything that has been added to this article that has went against other canon in the last few months has been his doing, not hers.

Again, canon states that they are nomads. Not semi-nomadic, but nomads. That they are semi-nomadic otl, with jobs and an actual government helping and financing them, is irrelevant.

Sabha, along with all the rest of the major cities in the area, has seen a massive increase in its population recent decades. 28,714 in 1973, 70,905 in 1984, and an estimated 96,872 today. Something mirrored in the other desert cities. This is far, far, higher than its historical population, and not at all possible to sustain without outside trade. So, it dies - as will any other cities and large towns, for the same reason.

Caer, you keep saying that it isn't true that everything you do is to try and make your article stronger, but your actions usually speak otherwise. I want to believe you, but then you do something like this.

For the record, this is, as most of them are, indirectly doing it. His goal is to weaken Greece and Egypt and/or put more enemies around them, so he can, against all logic, crush them and make the Turkwank happen. Seen it before, seen it again.

Lordganon 07:20, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

LG, we've been through this and neither of us are agreeing, nor do either of us have the power to unilaterally solve this impasse. How about we just wait for others to chime in? Caeruleus 07:49, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

You have entirely no basis for any of what you're arguing, and that post there reflects that. Though I have to say, it's nice to actually have you say something reasonable for a change. Lordganon 08:51, February 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's take the points one by one.


 * "His additions have finally gone against canon "
 * What do the canonical articles claim? Here's the extent of the Greek Federation's expansion:


 * In 1986 Morean forces landed in Libya, which the lack of international trade and support, and harsh government treatment of the population, had caused it to collapse into many splintered warlords and city states. By 1988 Morean forces had conquered much of Cyrenaica, including the capital of Benghazi. With the stability offered by the Morean occupation, many Libyans actually supported the invaders, and the Morean system of offering full citizenship in exchange for military service caused their ranks to fill with Libyan recruits. In 1990 Michaloliakos fell ill, with his son and his nephew both vying for power. As he didn't want to see a succession crisis tear apart Morea, he instead created the Kingdom of Cyrenaica and installed his nephew as King. 


 * Note: the extent of the occupaton and the new kingdom does not go beyond "much of 83DD-GFAdminMap.pngaica" including the coastal capital of Benghazi. The map makes it clear that this includes only the coastal privinces. Nothing in the Greece article speaks of continuing expansion of Greece beyond the coast. The effort would be counterproductive since, as is admitted, there is not much except desert on the otherside of the Nafusa mountains which are clearly the natural boundary of any coastal nation.


 * The article about Cyrenaica only refers to the above as far as boundaries, but states:


 * Cyrenaica has recently open relations with Egypt over oil fields in the south of former Libya, Egypt will mine the oil and control the land and Egypt will also build an oil line to transport oil to the town of Ras Lanuf which is to the west of the capital city, any oil revenue will go to the Cyrenaican government. 


 * And so, the nation of Cyrenaica works with Egypt over oil fields that are in land now claimed by Egypt. What lands are these? Again, a map and the text:


 * In 2006 army expeditions into the area formally ruled by Libya, finding only small chaotic Egyptian_Expansion.jpgements. After talking to the leaders of these small townships it became apparent that contact with the governement in Tripoli was lost shortly after Doomsday and after several years of raiding by former libyan military forces, a relative peace in the area began in late 1998. Once news of the country of Egypt surviving to the east was discovered by these small townships they asked to become part of Egypt, as they had been in the early twentieth century. The area was been provisionally named Al Kufrah province.


 * Note that Al Kufrah province hardly reaches the tribes in question, barely going beyond the boundaries of the Kufrah District of OTL Libya. though the tentative boundaries of the Libyan "nations" push against this, the only real divining line in the area is where the oil fields may be. This presents a problem with the map, for the oil found in "south Libya" is not included in the original map.


 * "Basically, he's trying to slip in a bunch of states in the desert of Western Libya."


 * As early as Feb. 14 of last year Smoggy saw that a conflict was coming over the oil. Mitro adds mention of the Berber tribes on March 17, concurrent with making the Lybia article canon. LG's map of April (close up seen above) did not reach far enough over to indicate actual acquiring of the oil fields in question. Even so, even then, conflict is not ruled out. The oil, found in 1997 in OTL and 2011 in TTL, is outside the boundaries shown here, requiring an extension of the claims from Egypt. The actual expansion to the oil fields is mentioned in an insertion on August 27 in the Egypt article by Smoggy. Note that the expansion AND the possible tribal resistance are by Smoggy. The resistance, of course will be futile given the strength of Egypt's forces, but the nation would likely make attempts to deal with the natives.


 * So, why should not the tribes work together? It is LG's opinion, and not the articles, that establish them as "nomads" apparently unable to work together. Nomads depend on access to resources to survive. In times of war they would not just wonder into the war zone. They would stay put in the oases around which small towns are built. These towns could very easily form the basis for an organized resistance, if not organized states. Such small city-states are popping up all over the Northern Hemisphere, so why not among the tribes of northern Africa?


 * In short, the seeds of the "nations" were planted in the original article almost a year ago. It is up to the challenger to indicate why these tribes could not form alliances in order to survive the changing political situation. To quote the additions by Caer:


 * "The Berber tribes coalesced into the Amazigh Confederacy, based south of the Nafusa Mountains."


 * The tribes around the Nafusa Mountains, the northern boundary of the Sahara, have long been resistant to the government in Tripoli. They would be quick to take the opportunity to organize at the fall of Qadaffi.


 * "The Tebou tribes formed the state of Murzuq, based around the town of Murzuq."


 * Note, a city-state, not a "nation." There is strength in numbers. The oil is discovered just north of here.


 * "Controlling the largest swath of western Libya, the Arab tribes united to form the Union of Libya, which claims the title of successor state to Gaddafi's Libya."


 * This union is the least plausible of the changes, for it is puts ambition in the Arab population that may not be this far south. But then again, it is only a claim. It is among these tribes that the oil was found. Would Egypt attempt negotiations with the Greek puppet state over land this far the two nations' former borders? Or would they seek peaceful negotiations instead with the residents of the province in question?


 * "The Libyan Touareg joined with their tribal brothers in the nation of Tamahaq, which slowly took control of parts of southwestern Libya in the late 2000s." 


 * This is a slow effort among tribal members to cease the moment. It hardly warrants much fuss as to whether to be recognized on a map. It's desert, for goodness sake.


 * "Egypt, and the Greek state of Cyrenaica, have been expanding into former Libya without any resistance from anyone other than a few tribal nomads. Taking only as much as they could chew at a time, obviously, and even dividing the east up between themselves."
 * This has not been demonstrated in the articles on Greece or Egypt. That LG edited in both a strong military and a monarchy (after discussion) in the article about the Greek Confederation indicates that he is biased in this discussion. To assume the "few tribal nomads" are so insignificant as to not offer any resistance to the invasion is presumptious. But given that, the article itself says nothing about expanding into the desert. Why would they want to any way? The Greek nation had plenty of oil fields in the east end of easily controled coastal areas.


 * Egypt, on the other hand, had to cross a lot of desert to get to the oil in order to discover it in land they had not previously claimed. There is no indication that the land was even claimed by the Cyrenaicans. To bargain for resources based on strength is what built empires in the 1800's, so it would certainly happen here. But, as I pointed out above, the Libya article planted the seed for possible resistance long ago.


 * "Remove the red, orange, and pale blue "states" that violate canon from both the map on that page, as well as the content of the article. The sections about "Politics" also needs to be fixed to actually represent what the Egypt article says, not what this article currently states, which is incorrect."
 * LG's "fix" is to take out the most recent additions entirely. This is based on his opinion that the existence of tribal confederations is a threat to the expansion of Greece into Africa. I never followed the whole Greek expansion saga, though I can appreciate the historixcal friction between Turkey and Greece (OTL division of Crete, for instance) along religious lines.


 * The overthrow of most of Northern Egypt by Greece (or did Egypt just give it away?) is confusing, but now the two are agreeing to split up what's left of Qadaffi's Libya. Fine, but why squabble over some tribal land owned by African Arabs? The new river in Egypt (very interesting invention) seems to have compensated with the loss of the "Lower Nile" and the Suez Canal.


 * Such a "fix" is not the way a collaborative time line works. One man, not even one of the "Brass" can do that. If there is to be a fix, it will have to be some sort of compromise. Reduce the claim of the Arab tribes as the "Union of Libya" if we must, but other than that, leave the changes. None of them "violate canon." The problem, I figure, is in the original contention that oil would even be discovered! Who is going to be nosing around in the hostile desert to find it in the first place? But, that having been written in and graduated, we won't argue over that.


 * That is a lot, and I hope it gives the community a bit to consider. I have other projects "off wiki" that I have to attend to, so I'll leave you to further discussion. SouthWriter 04:07, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to comment SouthWriter. I appreciate it. Caeruleus 04:46, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

As the person who has written the Egypt, Libya and Tamahaq pages i've brought over the map from the Libya page for easier description.


 * Cyrenaica already had control of the coast of Libya when I started writing Libya, so its pre-Libya canon - so it stays - obviously.
 * Egypt - it was written into the page by me that Egypt had taken over the eastern oil fields with the consent and assistance of Cyrenaica (as some of the oil is going to them) theres no major townships in that area, just small oil towns - its canon - so it stays.
 * I've taken over the Algerian survivor nation of Tamahaq, it would've made sense for it to expand over the border (the nation of Libya no longer existed so the border would've been irrelevent) there would be small villages along any camel trade routes that would want to be included in any trading nation so that the trade routes remained through their towns.

The rest of the area I was going to leave blank as it is, was, and will be desert, despite a little bit of rainfall it will remain desert for a long time. All you have to do is look at google earth,

The south is almost pure sand with some big rocky areas. No major nations could possibly set up in there.

To the north theres no way there could be a nation near the Tunisian border (once again all rock and sand) but its more likely Tunisia would've crossed the border and taken the desert area for themselves, but only if there are resources in that area worth taking (like oil) which i don't think there is, so its unlikely Tunisia would expanded.

The desert areas (both north and south) would be in the most uninhabited, maybe with some small trading towns along camel trade routes, but nothing major, its possible that the area could be claimed by a large nearby nation, but not inhabited.

--Smoggy80 12:42, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

South, I've asked you before to not try and arbitrate any disputes such as this, because you have shown yourself to not be neutral with regards to me. Please do so in the future.

As for your points, of which you've ignored something like half of the ones I've stated in above posts...

No, it's not mentioned in the article that it's been expanding inland somewhat. Nor should it have to. Logic dictates it will do so, overall. But, you want some proof? Then look at all of the maps, and their histories. It is expanding inland. And only tiny amounts of resistance are referred to anywhere, except this violation of canon. Nor, as already stated, is that early history anywhere remotely relevant in the atl present. Hell, it furthers the argument that there's nothing but small towns in the south.

If you look at map of oil/gas in Libya, you'd see that not only is there oil at the western edges of the Egyptian territory marked on that map, but also in the long-abandoned areas between Cyrenaica and Egypt, where pretty well any infrastructure is long gone. It's also fairly obvious that this is the oil meant, too. More a rediscovery than anything. And, in the context of Libya, virtually all of the oil is in the "south."

And, that Egypt quote is exactly what I meant when I said that his picture of Egyptian expansion is not in the least bit accurate. This blasted article refers to "tribes" when prior canon already shows that to be false. Virtually that entire paragraph of this article is the same way.

Not only that, but note the reference to "small chaotic settlements" being the only things left in Egyptian Libya? Or, exactly what I've been arguing the situation was? Where all of the large towns and cities die?

Thank you for that map. I'd completely missed/forgotten that in my arguments, and it makes them stronger. A third of the state marked as "Murzuq," including the titular capital city, are Egyptian. As is the southeastern fifth of the one marked "Fezzan," including, as I've established, the ruins of Sabha.

Such a state is not possible anyways. As shown, the population is not remotely sustainable, especially in the context of after DD, and what happened in Libya as a result. And, it's fairly obvious, as I've said and South's quotes show, that it went even further downhill from there in the region. The only other major center in the region, Ubari/Awbari, has tripled in size since 1984, as well - also not in the least bit sustainable. Virtually the same thing can be said for all of the cities in the area, to varying degrees. And, to boot, articles on the region go out of their way to say that it's mostly desert, as well.

There's one hell of a big difference between some tribal resistance by the nomads of the region, and them having a state.

Nor did I say even once that they could not work together in some form. Nor is it my opinion that they are nomads. That part, is a fact.

Add to that that these tribal nomads have never got along.

Again, the Nafusa Mountains are under Greece. And there's no Berbers south of them. So how on earth can they be there in such a form? Simple - they cannot be.

City-states are nations. And, much of Murzuq, including said town, is Egyptian. Not that it would survive, anyways, as established.

Again, there is no one left to form such a "Union of Libya." And, the Arab inhabitants of the region otl are city-dwellers, only living in small areas of the region. The rest is desert.

Notice how I did not say a word about Tamahaq?

"Possible Resistance" is not organized states as Caer is trying to claim. It's been shown to be tribal nomads. That's not my doing, at all.

And, as for bias? Caer's got so much of it that it's actually been a problem on several occasions. This being another.

It is not my opinion. It is an established fact. And one supported by data, and the reality that is is a desert.

Each and every one of Caer's false nations violates canon, in more ways than one. They also defy all logic and common sense about the desert, which he's been unable to grasp.

I've said what needs to be fixed. And a compromise may be workable. But so long as this impossible stuff is allowed to stand, that can't happen.

As for missed things....

Caer is the one that added all of the impossible things, taking the roots into a complete implausible place. The article history shows this. But, he blamed it on Smoggy, which is decidedly false.

Population in the region, from migration, oil production, and the military, has skyrocketed. Without outside aid, it's toast.

No outside aid would be coming to these places. That much, is obvious.

Tribal Confederacies are organized states. Not possible, and there's a very long history that shows exactly why.

Tribes are not what the Egyptians found and talked to in the east. Not even close.

He has also, no doubt, purposely done these "states" for his own goals. Something he has done elsewhere on multiple occasions.

And, despite all evidence to the contrary, he's ignoring the simple fact that it is a desert.

@Smog

Thanks, lol. That's the crux of the argument overall, and it's nice to see someone else say it. Southern Libya, except for oasis towns, is nothing but rocks and deserts. And most of these towns have gotten too large to support themselves whatsoever. All you need to do to support this is, as you say, look at Google Earth. Or even Google Maps. It's pretty obvious, overall.

Tunisia's not been in anywhere near a position to claim territory, either.

Lordganon 10:12, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

So much for letting other people deliberate indepedently. First of all LG, you can't say people can't offer their stance on this. You neither have the power or the right.

Secondly, the problem with both LG and Smoggy's argument is the notion that people can't live in a desert. They can. They have for millenia and they are going to continue to do so. Oasis towns and such would survive between native resources and trading with neighboring states and tribes. Doomsday would limit their growth, not result in their destruction. Everything you've pointed out about the population expansions OTL are true. What would happen to the towns in western Libya is simple: they wouldn't expand. At worst, they'd experience a population decline, which is entirely plausible, however, such a decline would be slow and gradual, not catastrophic or result in the widespread collapse of established towns in the area. The few cities in the region, like Sabha, would experience potentially large population declines, but these towns would not be reduced to "ruin" as you say. They would just be smaller.

As for the borders issue, the map used is originally Smoggy's map and he correctly identified the borders of Greece and Egypt. Neither Murzuq or Sabha are within Egyptian territory. You are simply wrong about that.

In addition, Berbers do live south of the Nafusa mountains. Most of the Libyan Berber population does live in the Nafusa mountains, but a significant portion of them live south of there, concentrated in the regions highlighted in the map, primarily around Ghudamis. Also, the Libyan Arab tribes have, in fact, cooperated with each other when necessary. The fact that they would band together is not at all unfeasible.

There's a fact you and Smoggy are both forgetting. These are not "states" or "nations" as you keep describing them. They are tribal confederacies that claim the mantle of statehood, which is very different from a state or nation. These are essentially indepedent, autonomous tribes that cooperate with each other on major issues, such as external security and trade, but otherwise are totally indepedent. The only exception to this rule would be the Amaizigh Confederacy, which would technically qualify as a nation and many Berbers have long wanted their own Berber state.

Even if the situation in eastern Libya was chaotic, that in no way means the situation in Western Libya would have been the same. The population of Western Libya is larger and more diverse than that of eastern Libya. Interethnic pressures, along with the Greek presence to the immediate north and the more recent Egyptian presence to the east, would force some level of cooperation in the region as the various tribes would be forced to organize in order to attempt to fend off potential threats. Caeruleus 19:42, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

I've asked South before to not attempt to be a mediator, because he isn't capable of being neutral towards me any longer. I am well within my rights to remind of of that fact. Nor did I say anything remotely like that.

Caer, you are entirely missing our point about it being a desert.

Historically, populations here have been tiny. Yet in the past few decades, which even you have admitted, this has more than doubled.

These may be oasis towns - notice how we both said that? - but they have expanded far beyond the amount of people that they can at all support. Except in the case of the tiny towns, there being an oasis is irrelevant.

For a third time: What neighboring states? They are, for all purposes, gone. There is no aid coming from them. And if you think that the tribes could at all help the situation, you are sadly mistaken.

These towns and cities, except for the small oasis towns, are gone. No food for everyone, and maybe enough water to stay alive? And not enough of either in the large cities? Food riots break out within weeks, alongside starvation. They will be entirely depopulated within a few months. And the few survivors will kill off even more areas.

Caer, you really need to learn to look at histories - told you before, and now I'm saying it again. Not only is the Africa map something that predates that Libya map by 10 months, it's also been used by Smog right next to that Libya one, and has even been on the Libya article for that same 10 months. There is no question that the Africa map is the one that is correct. And, btw, Smog is a her.

I am not wrong about that in the least. Without question, you are, Caer.

You're also very wrong about the Berbers. The majority do live in those mountains - which is the entire southern orange area on that blasted demographic map. And the rest? They live on the coast near Tunisia. There is none to the south of them.

You are entirely missing what the North African tribes are like. They never join together long-term. Ever.

Caer, for the... what, fourth time? A tribal confederacy is a state. And, for the third time, the Berbers live in Greek territory.

Western Libya is worse. A larger population, with no food, little water, and no outside contact? It is gone. And as for the tribes, I must respectfully ask you to actually have a look at these tribes, tribes in general and how their relations actually work. The most they would possibly do is stop fighting each other occasionally. And even that is highly unlikely.

Lordganon 10:11, February 13, 2012 (UTC)

First, LG, I did not post as a "mediator," but even if I did, it is not up to you to forbid it. I took the points you brought up and tried to determine if they met they could stand as challenges to canonized material. I attempted to show that the material of related articles does not preclude the new material added. I only added the information as I see it, and it is just my own analysis -- as good as I could make it and not having an interest in the articles otherwise.

I did not take it on as a challenge to LG, though I did note on the article's talk page that I think that his attack on this minor detail is rather "petty" in my opinion. I have laid down all the arguments I am going to offer on this string. LG has as the right to challenge whatever he wants to challenge, but he cannot, and must not, challenge other editors' rights to post at will. SouthWriter 06:23, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

Again, I did not forbid anything. What on earth is wrong with you two?

I have asked you, nicely, in the past to not try and mediate anything else between myself and others, because you are no longer capable of a neutral opinion. I cannot stop you, but I can ask. And, claim you're not being a mediator all you want, but that's what it amounts to.

This is not a minor detail. Nor is it in the least bit petty.

And please, in the future, if you're going to offer an opinion, could you at least comment on everything, instead of half of it?

Lordganon 10:37, February 14, 2012 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1, Archive 2

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