Talk:DME (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

Discussion of the plans
Can we not just have a pact to all support one another against non-Muslim aggressors for the time being? It provides the same benefit of protection plus we retain greater control of our respective nations.

An idea I have for an interesting way to establish this caliphate is we have a rise up and re-establish the great Muslim caliphate. The Mahdi establishes a large caliphate after taking over all of our nations, and then goes on to big himself up with religious feelings after people start thinking its the. As the supposed end of the world draws closer all of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgment occur and the Muslim world gets ready for the end of the world. Then when nothing happens and the world doesn't end, a huge renaissance of liberal thinking takes place as it turns out the Mahdi was a fraud and the world doesn't end. The caliphate then enters a period of civil disarray, which ends up with it either collapsing and we divide the territory up between ourselves or we form a federation like caliphate. For me it seems more likely the Mahdi being caught out as a fraud to throw the caliphate into civil disarray, and then a bunch of local warlords & leaders fight for control, ending up in a series of successor states.

Anyway what you guys think of that? The eschatology has always interested me so I figured using some to create this state would be interesting. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sound intesting for an Althistory! But, I was planning something a small bit more prestigious, say like the Caliphate (as said). But the idea you presented was very similar to what I did at the end of PMI. Saamwiil (talk) 20:23, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to go ahead with this plan you certainly have my support. We could stretch it over a few decades as we have this Mahdi rise to power, and then when his caliphate extends over the entire, we can have that when the Mahdi is in control upon the earth for certain time, seven, nine or nineteen 7, 9, 19 years, after which ensues the death of all civilization just preceding the Judgement. During this period we have the other signs being noticed but then eventually nothing happens and the thing collaspes in on itself.

Just wondering how you intend to make it more prestigious? This plan half includes the Caliphate going super expansionist, trying to take over all of the world. I can't really think how much more prestigious we can get lol. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

For the Mahdi, we could have the 1428 Catalan Earthquake, the 1481 Rhodes Earthquake and 1509 Istambul Earthquake, and some big fire-war for the smokes. The sun rising from the west might be the discovery of the Americas if the Muslims have a part on it, or Granada/Morocco/Mali rising under a ruthless pan-Islamic leader (which can be the Fake Messiah). That or a new Christian Crusade (the Messiah being Jesus). Gog and Magog might be an Uzbek resurgenece seeking to restore Timur's Empire or even more, the Mongol Empire? (in which case Gog and Magog might be the Uzbeks and their leader, the Uzbeks and the Hindu or the Uzbeks and the Mongols). It's the Beast and Jesus which I can't see coming back.

Though if we skip those two we might be in a pretty good position to put a fake Mahdi in and create the DME. Fed (talk) 23:09, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, can there not be a fake Mahdi, maybe something slightly more moderate, like a fake decendant from Muhammad. Saamwiil (talk) 23:14, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

A proper descendant of Muhammad might happen in the, and it'd be cool to have a new Caliph, but a unified nation wouldn't be able to exist because a descendant of Muhammad would make everybody Shi'ite and nobody wants that if you're Sunni. Fed (talk) 23:38, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

True dat man, but Sunnis wouldn't mind, as long as they're not the only choice... Let's see..... How about a slow building, through marriages. Saamwiil (talk) 23:42, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's more likely, and with the three earthquakes and some of the prophesies being fullfilled, we can also have an extremist faction believing that the Hashemites are actually the Mahdi, leading to them to add the title of "Mahdi" to the full title of the Caliph.

I also believe we could do some sort of personal union with maybe some sort of more individual national rights. Fed (talk) 23:49, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Customs Monetary Union Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:50, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I was planning to keep individual national rights. We'd only adopt things a majority of us voted on... Saamwiil (talk) 23:51, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

So we could vote for something like the Geneva Convention except name it the Medina Convention. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:52, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well something less formal. Say I married the Mamluks and the Marininds marry Granada.

Nasrids. not Granada

Hm? Saamwiil (talk) 23:57, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah we can always make up an even worse earthquake if necessary, natural disasters probably won't happen exactly how they did in OTL so I can always do a mod event for 3 large devastating earthquakes. We could use a huge wildfire in southern Sudan for the "Fire from the west of what is now Yemen" and this could be the smoke too. If not we could have a big volcano explosion which is mostly ash.

The beast we could have as people living in the desert claiming to have seen it and maybe even a copycat serial killer? As for Jesus, someone could claim to be him but I'm not too sure if we'd be able to have him do miracles & stuff. TBH if we get the other stuff done then this stuff can just be from misinterpretations of people who are all caught up & flustered with the approaching end of the world. We'd just keep this stuff vage, but not sure how we have Jesus assist the Mahdi in restoring Islam, unless we have a fake Jesus too.

As for a fake descendant from Muhammad, we could include this in with this plan, as in the Shia view of the Mahdi and, has the Mahdi being an infallible male descendant of the founder of Islam, Muhammad, was born but disappeared, Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi. Besides there have been many potential Mahdi in OTL, so if his and his father's names were the same as Muhammad's and his father's, and he had come to Mecca from the north, then they can sort of begin claiming to be Mahdi. Give the Mahdi more success in battle than the potential Mahdi in OTL, and more people will believe & support their divinity.

We can always do other caliphate stuff after this plan, and you'll have my support if you want to do your own caliphate plan later on. But I think this plan is too awesome not to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my point was for a more mild thing if we didn't want to follow all those clues as precisely so that it was somewhat more plausible. But I'm all for the Mahdi, and it being around the 1490s (so that either Granada/Morocco/Mali rises or America is discovered, and thus "the sun rises from the west").

BTW, another coincidence; the Marinid's symbol was a star. Maybe the Mahdi is a Marinid after a Marinid marries a Hashemite? Fed (talk) 00:07, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah he can be. Like you say, yeah we won't be able to have it precisely, but if most the stuff happens and we have all the hype, we can just have much of that stuff as vague gossip which is sensationalized into near-fact. Its just the Jesus helping the Mahdi I'm struggling to work out, I mean we could always make a divergent timeline where Jesus really does come down to Earth and the day of judgement actually happens. Otherwise Jesus not appearing and the world not ending could be the cause of the Mahdi to loose followers, until it slowly just collapses on itself. That coupled with a few battles being lost and the Europeans managing to push us back. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:30, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, for late response had to make Moroccan Tea and eat KusKus with the family. Hmm. All good ideas. Trying to fuse and integrate. Maybe in the same year, there is 3 earthquakes near the capitals of this nation, and they take it as a sign of God, including the death of the heir. And say the daughter of the Mamluk Sultan claims to be a heshimite and the Maranid King marries her. Making him king. Then my heir dies so a daughter marries a Prince of Oman. After 20 years, the same things happen to those unions... Saamwiil (talk) 00:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You can just take over Oman by conquest. It'll be easier, and I wanna get rid of the Nabhan Dynasty and establish a new dynasty anyway. You can simulate wars if both sides agree to the outcome so this should speed things up, otherwise we'll loose the Timurid/Mongol threat VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:12, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So I conquer you. Mamluk makes Granda a semivassel. I have no sons, mary the Mamluks. We'll see about the Maranids. We have to make the DME more contiguos before we include them (Say annexing the Hafsids, which might take time). Saamwiil (talk) 01:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Right then, until then I'll continue to expand into the Bedouin territory. Perhaps the Mamluks start a war against the Hasfids now? Also I think we should re-organise this stuff into a clear time frame plan of what we do, so we all know what we need to be doing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:36, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'm going to post a plan and move all of this to the talk page, fine with you. ~Saamwill

Fine by me.

If y'all still want a Turko-Mongolic threat to arise, I will see what I can do. Do you have a specific time you want? (preferably in the next couple decades before the khanates all start getting crushed by the Chinese and Russians)LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ottomans
Oh and try get DeanSims on-board with this plan could someone? His Ottoman Empire will be an important asset to the caliphate. Anyway I'm going to bed now so you'll have to wait a few hours for anymore output from me VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:45, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we will before colonization.

The plan & rough outline of each stage
I'll conquer some of the Smaller Turksih states after expanding, about another 3 years or so. Saamwiil (talk) 17:26, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I amended a bit because us people in the plan mean we can go for a multiple of plan goals with our individual nations. This will not only arose less suspicion, it also means we don't risk overstretching ourselves. So basically since these things are sure-fire to definitely happen we should pursue the more difficult goals which aren't entirely in our hands (e.g. conquering NPC nations), plus otherwise if you conquer me dead early on, I don't have much to do in the game & I don't wanna get too bored. Plus if I stay allied with you and remain independent you get a higher score in the algorithm from military aid being sent to you from your allies.

Anyway specifically on Aq Qoyunlu conquering Oman, I plan for Oman to continue expanding for a while until border disputes and rivalry ends up with war breaking out. Basically Oman starts to get too cocky with its navy, so You & the Mamluks defeat me on land but Oman's greater naval strength allows Oman to put off an aquatic invasion by your Turks, then you plot with another Omani noble family to have them overthrow the Nabhan Dynasty, and this new Omani noble family who consqired with you stages a coup and overthrows the Nabhan & bows down to Aq Qoyunlu to become a vassal state.

Basically stage 1 is take over the near-by NPCs, expanding into the unclaimed black territory as much as possible. This period should also allow us to build up our infrastructure. E.g. I plan for Oman to become the dominant naval power in Arabia and the Indian Ocean, to give the future caliphate a nice building block to build a strong navy and large trade empire/income/connections. Plus we can use this stage as a building period to make sure we have other Muslim nation players on board with the plan who are yet to declare loyalty in joining the plan.

Stage 2 is when we join together either via marriage, vassalization, puppet states or conquest. The marriage unifying Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks, is the final joining peace. The new Barbarian khanate rises in the east too, perhaps lead by another great military genius like Gengis Khan or Timurlame.

Stage 3 is when the caliphate is formed, a short civil war may break out as this is formed. Then a new caliphate comes to power after he dies, and the future Mahdi comes to become the Caliph. The Mahdi caliph's authority is solidified by great military victories and some of the signs of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgement, to the point he goes and declares himself the Mahdi.

Stage 4 is when the Mahdi now rules over nearly all of the Ummah, and he wages many successful wars against the Barbarians, Europeans, Africans and Indians. This period of super expansionism lasts nine years as foretold by the hadiths, as the muslim armies spurred on by the Mahdi try to conquer the world & make it Muslim, ready for the day of judgement. More hadith signs are noticed and the caliphate goes mental with religious duty, feelings and terrified celebration as the day of judgement is nearly upon them.

Stage 5 is less mental super-expansionism, and the Mahdi begins to loose some support. The caliphate expands more slowly and battles begin to be lost. This will probably be when the Holy Roman Empire ends up unifying, and they push us out of Europe. This period lasts ten more years, and as the 20th year of the Mahdi's rule takes place, most people begin to question whether he really is the true Mahdi as the day of judgement still hasn't occurred. Perhaps a huge natural disaster happens so people think its the day, but it really isn't?

Stage 6 is the downfall of the Mahdi's caliphate, the Mahdi is found to be a fraud (perhaps a fake Jesus who claims to be divine is caught out, and the Mahdi looses his legitimacy). We all split up, as the empire looses even more against its enemies, and factions in the caliphate split it up between themselves, as it all collapses in on itself.

So is this okay with you all? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:52, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So you do want me to make a strong barbarian khanate? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:11, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

When we're just about finished with stage 1, yes please. I'm thinking a new military genius leader likened to Gengis Khan, Atlia or Tamerlane takes over. This could happen as he tries to establish a new great khanate/hoard as the other ones around him seem to be failing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:18, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we're underestimating what the Christian nations will do in the north. We barely held the Muslim foothold in the Iberic Peninsula, and now all the nations in the area noted this, forming alliance and whatnot. Though Christian Nations are no threat right now, France and England and their respective coalition practically dividing the powerful nations of the Christian World, Christian Nations as they grow stronger will take tough action. Ianian58 (talk) 20:32, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but since anti-European expansionism will last ~20 years, then we will most likely take them by surprise. And the conquest will not take long; we'll just take a large swathe of territory then collapse and lose it.

This Mahdi caliphate is a simulated special event like the Mesheryakovist wars in PM1. This plan isn't designed to make an ever lasting caliphate to rule the world, so we will conquer bits of Europe but eventually as the Mahdi is seen not to be the real one then the whole thing looses speed until it collapses in on itself. We already know Europe will win eventually, but this plan will deal them a deadly blow which will put them a couple of years behind such as stopping them collonizing the Americas as easily as many Europeans will die. Plus the players taking part in this plan will be able to carve out larger successor states as the caliphate collapses.

The only way this plan actually lasts forever is if the day of judgement actually happens and the world ends. This plan will lead to much less fundamentalist Islam, as the thing just turns out to be a lie and people start questioning more about the religion (e.g. if that guy really wasn't the Mahdi, how do we know the prophet really was a prophet?). Oman for one is going to be much less conservative & religious for one, and more secular atheist nation, allowing it to be more scientific in the future. Everyone else is free to do whatever they want with their nations, but that is what I'm planning to take from the failure of this caliphate.

It also gives us a better foundation for a EU-esque caliphate in the future. This is not an end-game project, its just a special event to spice things up and make things easier for us Muslim nations in the future. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 21:06, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, since the leader will probably be an exile from the fallen Oirats Khanate, he would be Buddhist. So you said you wanted there to be two threats to Islam (Gog and Magog), so the two threats would be the Mongols and the Buddhists. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be a redundancy? I mean, the Buddhist would be the Mongols wouldn't they?

Maybe the Uzbeks and the Uyghurs (Oirats) could work... Fed (talk) 01:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, since the Empire is in a bit of tough times with Italy, it's not like they will really be able to field their full strength if we sneak in a few troops into Malta and Sicily. (OF COURSE, this is an entirely "me speaking as Fed" post, not as me "speaking like the Mamluk Sheik", since it's a secret event as of now) Fed (talk) 01:47, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Their should be 2 or 3 Caliphs before the fake MAHDI, the third one not leaving a successor, therefore allowing the fake Mahdi to rise to power due to loyalty of followers against many weak pretenders to the throne. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, while we have the first 2 or 3 Caliphs we assimilate all the other territories into the Caliphate, and then once we get the Mahdi we start a huge war campaign against Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:22, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Then one after, which the Empire would fall apart with. First the farthest Territories, Morocco and Granada, then Oman revolt, then finally the split between the Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu. This would all take about 10 years in my mind.Saamwiil (talk) 07:05, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm thinking the great generals split up the caliphate between themselves too. We'll have a large civil war/power vacuum. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Positions in the caliphate
No semi-vassal. I want to be my own independant country. In this Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks get to go super expansionist and get to have lots of fun conquering while I get stuck as a cruddy vassal. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 22:22, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's why you're a semi-vassal. You can do whatever you want, we just need you to officially be a vassal so that we can have every muslim country apart of it. However, you should focus on your navy, and exploration, so you can get lots of land in the New World. Saamwiil (talk) 04:08, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

The Mamluks and Aq Qoyunlu join together to form the caliphate, you as a vassal of the Mamluks then join the caliphate too. If you don't want to become a vassal then be assimilated into the caliphate like that, you could have Granda be conquered by the caliphate or your leader declares loyalty to the caliph and has Granda join the caliphate. Like Sammwill I also recommend you focus on your navy, and exploration, so Granda can get lots of land in the New World. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:17, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

So, I think I (Morocco) should try to counter European Colonism on important costal areas in the sea. Ianian58 (talk) 18:21, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead, the more the merrier, eh? Saamwiil (talk) 07:03, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking perhaps once the caliphate itself is formed, we each post as one of the caliphate's great generals waging war on one of the many fronts of the caliphate. Any other thoughts on what we're going to do individually when we're one big caliphate? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:11, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that could work, but I think more as posting as provinces of the Caliphate, which will slowly increase in number as the end of the Mahdi's rule approaches. So an activity per province, if we post as generals, it would show a lack of support from the other generals, which I don't think would be accurate. Saamwiil (talk) 20:19, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Bit of a problem
Okay guys, we have a bit of a problem for our contiguous DME, which is the Pope has invaded Tunisia. We need to act quickly to make as much of the problem end IMO, so I'm invading Tunisia this turn if there's no objections and advise the Marinids to do the same. Fed (talk) 01:00, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I will send you military aid. However, we must also help Tunisia against the Pope. Making it more of a 3-way war... The pope must not have Muslim lands! Saamwiil (talk) 01:06, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

So we side with the Hafsids and help them throw the Pope out but refuse to return their lands? Fed (talk) 01:43, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, about. And take some if possible. Saamwiil (talk) 01:49, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Be sure to write your support in the war. Saamwiil (talk) 01:51, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that everyone show support for Tunisia, we can begin to weaken European powers. Saamwiil (talk) 02:47, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry but I am not joining this plan. But this does not effect our alliances in-game so no meta-gaming. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 03:01, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Why you not joining this plan then? You realize if your not on board then you'll just have to be conquered as we invade Europe. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:21, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Can't support much, Maranid isn't exactly a peacful, stable, growing kingdom. Ianian58 (talk) 22:32, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

That's okay. Just invite some Mamluk advisors, (Aq Qoyunlu is more of a federation), and focus on your navy and exploration.Saamwiil (talk) 03:28, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah once your country is part of the caliphate, Maranid's instability & stuff won't be a problem as the caliphate can just use its vast resources to help you out. Until then just focus on making your country better, a bit of expansion and keeping the Christians at bay! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:36, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Titles
So, who like tha Caliph title?Saamwiil (talk) 21:59, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I like it. Also are we going to try push onwards with this plan a bit quicker? Lurk is building up the new Mongolian threat to us so we need to unify fairly soon. Are you & the Mamluks ready to unify soon? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

No. I feel comfortable with 10 years. I need to build up my army. Also note, Georgia might be a problem, they have shown intrest in Trebizond, which is in Anatolia... Saamwiil (talk) 20:46, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is the sort of time length I had in mind so that's fine, I was thinking like we were gonna be another 20 years or something, 10 is okay.

We're going to need to invade Georgia anyway, but the Georgian Kingdom collapsed into anarchy by 1466 and fragmented into three independent Kingdoms and five semi-independent principalities in OTL so they are quite weaker than us so they shall not be a problem. After all in OTL by the beginning of the 16th century, the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire subjugated the eastern and western regions of Georgia, respectively. Anyway just another war for the caliphate to win. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:45, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, should I start souring our relations with you? Saamwiil (talk) 21:10, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:41, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I was planning to wait for you all to get more unified like you wanted, but I was afraid that if I waited, the Chinese would integrate the Oirats faster and then be able to annex all of the central Asians. Godeng and Mamash won't extend their empire that far west until 1470 or later though, it will take them a while to subjugate the Golden Horde and the remains of the Temurids. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:28, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

10 years is enough for me; I just have to take as much Marinid and Zayyanid land as possible and marry a Marinid to a Hashemite if possible, as well as land said Hashemite in the throne. Fed (talk) 00:34, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking of making the Zayyanids and the Marinids pledging alliegence to the Caliphate. Both are allies. I think also we should postpone major warfare in Tunisia until '65, when I'll take a lead. I've been working on my military, so we could get more land. Saamwiil (talk) 00:46, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, one of yyou guys should convince the Tutonic order that the pope doesn't care for them anymore, and make them Muslim. I think it is logical, Brandenburg declared war on the Teutonic Knights and the Papal states didn't even show support. Saamwiil (talk) 21:16, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Also, the Mamluk Sultanete will have to give up 3 cities for the common good of the Calipate. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, each should be an independant state/capital. However this is for the future.

Also, Fed, Muhmmad(pbuh) didn't have any sons that live, he did however have 6 sons that died in infancy. So give me feed back! Saamwiil (talk) 22:37, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I never said he did... Anyways, I really doubt that the Teutonics would become Muslim. And yes, I'm willing to give up Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem. Fed (talk) 22:57, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

I was meaning on the long term. Saamwiil (talk) 23:20, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I would replace "Sultan of Sultans" with "Khalifa and Mahdi of Dar al-Islam, Protector of the Holy Cities Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem" or somesuch since _______ of ________s is a Persian term, and Sultan is an Arabian one. Fed (talk) 02:46, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

We're assuming. One of the inicial 3 might be of Persian origins. And I already have Khalifa in its English form, "Calip of the Muslim World"Saamwiil (talk) 10:28, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

It's not that you're adding a Persian title, it's that you're adding a Persian form to an Arabic title, which is a bit anachronistic. Fed (talk) 02:43, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

I see. I was just following the lead of the Ottomans. Saamwiil (talk) 03:03, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

1965 and leta man
Are you planning a revolt lead by Aq Qoyunlu instead of a war? Saamwiil (talk) 23:23, September 18, 2012 (UTC)

Government
So hey guys, I thought it was close enough so we should start being more precise about our government I have made the following two pages so that we can refine it:
 * Imperial Courte of Muslims
 * The Constitution

Discussion
Surely the constitution would mostly be just sharia law? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:30, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

No, that's the law. The "Constitution" is a mear treaty. Saamwiil (talk) 01:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

HRE expansion
Okay, we've got to start quickening up the unification; the HRE is going all Crusader on the whole world, and Russia is starting to attack the Mongol hordes all around. We'll be up in the middle of a Crusade and thus in a huge disadvantage in our huge expansion frenzy if all of Europe keeps moving around. Fed (talk) 01:53, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, do you want me to marry next year? Saamwiil (talk) 01:56, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Rather in two years' time, so that I can finish the civil war and take Cairo first, as well as a year of consolidation. Fed (talk) 02:05, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Our war with the Hafsids should end in 73.Saamwiil (talk) 02:15, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually in 70. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:23, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Unless there are any other problems, I could once again join in and declare war on the Hafsids, and unify the Maghreb once and for all. Fed (talk) 00:33, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, its fine. I'm able to take 24% of their territory but only take 3 so I can show friendship. Then they pledge alliedgence to the DME. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:38, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I have a question: why are all of you coming in to help the Crimeans of all people, but are letting the Ottomans die? LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:11, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

I decided to, Oman also did so bcause it's my vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:57, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Well I was at war when the Ottoman war started but now I'm free to help them. I'll send some military aid their too, as my forces go to help the Crimeans. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:45, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

The ottoman Empire asked for alliances all muslim nations and for help against the treacherous and backstabbing Christians (Talk)dean

Hm. Can't this war. It would be better to loose this war for your nation to better integrate into the empire. Also, I'd like to take an offensive war, not a defensive one. Later, my military build up will really come in handy. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:41, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

But my question is why did you all decide to defend the Crimeans against the Europeans instead? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:55, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Everyone, check the imperial courte for the latest issues in our new state. Always changing. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:01, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

We've begun
Shall do. Also have the Caliph agree to the demands of Shaybah's Emir. They're not much and its just a formality to make it seem more realistic having Shaybah pledge allegiance as now they have more of a reason to do so. Woo, its all coming together now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:47, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Also shall do. It would be nice/cool if we all posted as "DME province of XXXX", give it a more unified feel. I also volunteer to roleplay the Caliph these first five years, then Von, then Fed, then Dean. I propose this Caliph live 23 years, any objection? Saamwiil, the Humble 01:31, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well rather than DME isn't it "the Hashemite Caliphate province of XXXX"?

Also Dean seems to have left our group. Shall we just conquer the Ottoman's then? He seems quite against the idea of having to share power and being subordinate to the Caliph. We could try to convince him but if he still refuses to join back, then what? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:55, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well, if he refuses to join the Caliphate and the Mahdinate (we are still having a Mahdi, aren't we?) then we'll have to conquer the Turk by force.

BTW, have all player-controlled Muslim nations but the Ottomans joined the Caliphate? Fed (talk) 20:15, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

the Ottoman Empire will join the caliphate on 1 condition, the condition is that all conquest in Europe are ceded to the Ottoman Empire and that we start a holy war against a Christian nations for revenge. (DeanSims: Talk)

Are we still going to make a Mahdinate or will we stay with the Caliph? If we do, I imagine we'll need to start the events and the "beast" soon (as Alodia I imagine I have the responsibility of reporting a few of those) so that the Mahdi can rise as soon as Marwan dies off. Fed (talk) 22:43, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, we're having 3 caliphs first, this is the first of the three. He will die in about 20 years.

Oh, alright. So three caliphs and then the Mahdi? Fed (talk) 22:46, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Enough time to do Harb ul-Muqadisa, (Holy War)! Von, you should focus on India and Africa, Shaybah expands into Africa while Oman tries to rise Muslims in India convert them to Islam. I and Fed will focus on our military to hold back the Christians, and to spread Islam through Northern and Western Africa and Europe.

We have to have the Hafsids and Zayyanids take over Morocco and Granada first, and try to get Mali or Songhai to join us so we get a good hold in the territory (since they're NPC, whoever holds the Caliphate at the time is also who controls them, right?) While that happens, I believe we should take over Anatolian states as quickly as we can to prepare any attack against the Otts and the Balkans. Fed (talk) 00:00, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

So, I am not an expert on Islamic prophecy, dos the Gog/Magog part require the Dual Khanate to begin the war? If you want them to attack one of you (don't worry, it will happen in six years and they will lose), Aq Qoyonlu is going to be the ones to get attacked I'm afraid. If you don't need them to attack you, I won't. (if it wasn't obvious that the two conquerors, Mamash and Godeng, were supposed to be that part of the prophecy, I don't know what to say...)LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to use Shaybah to expand into the black areas of Arabia. Then a small bit of colonization in Africa but not much. Oman was going to increase its colonies along the East African seaboard and try to get some of those states to convert and join.

Also seeing that Our Brave Old World who controlled Bahmani said he was interested in the DME but now left before actually joining, I think we might be able to get Bahmani to join the DME fairly easy as if the player was still here they would have joined. Then we use Bahmani to expand from in India... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:36, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Made a Caliphate page. Of course, anyone's open to edit and add as they wish, as well as correct mistakes. Fed (talk) 00:56, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The arabic for Hasemite Caliphate is wrong, but I'll fix it.

Perhaps add a map of the Caliphate but with the regional boundaries for each of the provinces in it? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Persians and other ethnicities
Hey Von, I was wondering if you could make an event which drives more Turks by mongol horde into Circassia and northern Aq Qoyunlu.

Also, the Muslim world as of now is operating like seperate factions working together. We need to slightly more unify it by encouraging immigration. This would also help bring down the risk of a Iranian revolt. -unsigned post by Saamwiil

Letting a bunch of Turks come charging into Iran and letting them steal the Iranians' land is only going to make the Iranians angrier at your government and make them want to revolt. Anything which could be seen as an outright attempt to annihilate their culture is going to cause them to revolt. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:54, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

What about the Syriacs/Copts/Syrian Turks? They've been moving into Mesopotamia for a while, so it wouldn't look as an attempt to do anything, and they're as civilised as Persians, so they wouldn't be afraid of barbarians around... Fed (talk) 02:58, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I also want Araabs to immigrate... As for the Turkes Persian land, they wouldn't. Generals would be rewarded with territory, soldiers would go to mostly Turkish districts, or become lower class in Persian majority areas. I plan for the same with Arabs. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:02, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

The Syriacs and whatnot aren't moving into Mesopotamia, that's where they've lived for literally thousands of years. They also are a tiny minority.

Any attempt to destroy the Iranian culture (and yes, spreading them all around the middle east and north Africa so they'll not be a majority in any area is an attempt at destruction) will be met with revolt, the Iranians historically resisted the numerous efforts to destroy their culture for the thousands of years they have existed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:12, September 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean the Syriacs that have been living everywhere, I meant those that have risen in Syria and spread to Mesopotamia. I know the Syriacs have been living there, look at Saint Muhammad for God's sake! xD Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also, historically, immigration failed to destroy the Iranian culture. The Arabs tried moving in when the Caliphate ruled over them for almost three centuries, the Turks tried it when they ruled over them for two and a half hundred years, the Mongols tried in their brief rule when they came in, Timur brought in armies of Turks and massacred entire Iranian cities and he still failed. LurkerLordB (Talk) 03:16, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't plan on destroying them. Only not make them as dominant. Maybe like 1/3 to each ethnic group, not specifically in any area. Over a long period of time. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:33, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really even want the Turkes to be dominant. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try and reduce the Iranian strong majority areas to a fraction of their OTL areas? Like maybe reduce them to Isfahan, Fars, and the areas to the east. They would revolt trying to take it all, but then you could force them into the smaller area and the rest of the Iranians would immigrate. LurkerLordB (Talk) 10:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

How about we just give the Iranian's their own Province? The Qoyunlu will still rule most of Persia but this way we stop them from revolting. You can still control both nations and it gives us more allies too! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to have the Iranians be independent right now, you can wait about 100 years if you want to drag it out, so they would still be part of the Caliphate until the second half of the sixteenth century. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:57, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Russia
FYI, both Muscovy and Novgorod are behind you. Partially. Somewhat. You don't need to worry about us attacking you. Unless you attack us fiirst.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:14, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

No more wars under Marwan guys, besides the Mongols. I think Qoyunlu will be maxed out. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:07, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Could someone else just not start a war?

Also I think we really need a map of the Caliphate and its current provinces so we can visualize this stuff better (well so I can visualize it better), but I may end up making one later today if I finish my other work for the day.

Also I was thinking since we have each province in the algorithm, what if we split up the bigger provinces? Not only would that please local rulers and make us more democratic but we get more allies in the algorithm. I'm saying this because a war against the HRE is going to be very dependent on the amount of allies we got. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:54, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am fully aware. I was planning on dividing Qoyunlu in th south a small bit. And we could do Hejaz as an independant kingdom. It would be better administratively, smaller revolts, which works well for me. The algorithm also works. Saamwiil, the Humble 11:59, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

There's loopholes that Circassia could use for Islamic law on assimilation. Anyhow, as you guys might now, we have the right to annex Georgia, but haven't done so completely. They'll be joining if thyou guys are okay, and they are okay. Trebizond will become a vassal. Saamwiil, the Humble 12:02, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

For example, Christians are bound to their laws not Islamic laws. This practice was practiced (repitition ;) ) by Muhammad (pbuh) himself, if I got history down right. The Jews betrayed him, and they were subject to their own law, not Islamic.

Well I agree and disagree with the whole genocide thing here, but either way looks like its going to happen. Anyway I'm completely fine with Georgia becoming part of the Caliphate, we won so they should be annexed by us. If he doesn't want to then he could always go and find another country to rule. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:24, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do believe that they should rule themselves internally and have the rights of Muslim provinces except for voting on the Imperial Court, since they're Christian and everything. Also, since the Khans annexed Crimea, that means that they're about to strike on either the Rus' or us pretty soon. Fed (talk) 20:22, September 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. Perhaps this is just where we put all of the Christians who refuse to become Muslim? You know and keep the rest of the DME nearly all Muslim. Basically like using Georgia like a "Nazi-Ghetto" state but for the Christians. This way we don't have to kill them and they are put in one place to rule themselves and to not bother the Muslims. This might end up causing more revolts though if we concentrate them all in one place but hey, we can always crush a little revolt. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK, on the subject of splitting up big nations, I don't want you to break the DME nations into a ton of tiny provinces, each giving a +3 to the algorithm so you get a huge bonus. Splitting a few would be fine, but if the number starts getting ridiculous you'll have to go the way of the HRE with only the player ones contributing to wars. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:56, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah don't worry, I certainly wasn't planning on going into city state size states. It was more for national groups being able to rule themselves and to split up some of the bigger states like the Mamluk state into more manageable sized provinces. Shaybah and Oman shall not be getting split up for example. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:20, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Secret Novgorod Diplomacy to the DME
[Secret Novgorodian Diplomacy]Yes, Russia(or at least Novgorod) is getting annoyed and find the khanates to be an increasing neusance(and as I understand to the Islamic Caliphate aswell), so lets fight a common foe, just rip them apart, in say a combined war, we can take the north, while you take the south and we singn a non-agression agreement where we will not take sides in wars against each other unless you impede on the rights of Orthodox(NOT CATHOLIC) Christians, and we impede on rights of (insert denomination/all) muslims.(i.e. tolerate that specific faith and allow the members of said faith to be part of the governement and run things...). This agreement will go both ways. Message me or on the novgorod talk page if you are uncertain about something. You know what they say, an enemy of my enemy is my friend Let's end the mongol threat once and for all-Lx (leave me a message) 21:17, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I hope I'm setting a precedent people. When you roleplay the Caliph, don't abuse your power. When you mod other nations, keep what their gov't would actually say in mind. Ex. I voted against myslef (with Georgia). I'm handind it off to Von it 1776. Then in 1751 to Fed. In 1756 to Dean.

Also, someone open up the debate on having an alliance with Novogrod. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:22, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

AHEM Muscovy too. We left a similar message but (:P) you ignored us (maybe because We have the royal pronoun).

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:23, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "handind it off to Von it 1776?" I'm not sure if the caliphate will last until 1776... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:41, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

No, you'll be roleplaying the Caliph. He won't die... Saamwiil, the Humble 15:10, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I get that but I don't think the Caliphate (the nation not the leader) will last until 1776. I thought it was getting broken up after the Mahdi anyway? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:09, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'm so sorry! I meant to write 1476. You get to roleplay next 5 years. Saamwiil, the Humble 17:45, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'd like to declare war on the Mongols while our armies still get the 1.5 bonus. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

The 1.5 bonus for the Mongols is going to go away in 1478, so they will be their weakest after that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:26, September 30, 2012 (UTC

Also, any NPC nation. After the Mongols there should be a period of peace. I want to get the most out of it. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:43, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Your bonus will disappear in 1481, so the best year for you to attack would probably be 1480. Technically, 1479 would be good too, as you would have your bonus but the Khanate would lake theirs, but by 1480 a couple more Kazakh-Mongol territories would break away so the Khanate's population bonus would be much smaller, allowing you to win the war by more. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:25, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Von's reign as Caliph (1476-1481)
Hey I'm just posting here to discuss about what I'm going to do while I'm Caliph:
 * 1) I plan to build the Caliphate a huge navy from which we shall rule the seas. I'm doing this to increase maritime trade, fight our enemies and to allow us to expand overseas easer.
 * 2) I will post a map on how I think we should split up the Caliphate into its provinces. This will be posted later today & I appreciate you guys contributing to that. Once we have agreed on the new provincial borders and who controls which provinces, I'll implement this in game.
 * 3) I want us to intervene in Adal's war against Ethiopia. If we can show Adal that we'll keep them safe from Ethiopia, we will have good enough reasoning for them to join the Caliphate/ become our vassal.
 * 4) The creation of a new Caliphate province for the Nejd. I don't want Shaybah and Oman expanding to take over all of that black area. I also think the Nejd people will want some autonomy, so hence we give them a province.
 * 5) I want those small NPC states in OTL Eastern Turkey to become part of the Caliphate.
 * 6) Expansion into India via the Timurid state, and then getting the Delhi & Bahmani Sultanates to join our Caliphate. Seeing how Bahmani's player was interested in the plan, I think we can make our case for Bahmani becoming part of the Caliphate.
 * 7) War against the Dual Khanate in 1479/80!
 * 8) Support for Malacca to increase our presence in South East Asia
 * 9) Single Caliphate currency?

Thoughts? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:20, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

We sholud invade Moldovia. So then, if we attack Lithuania (later) and win, we can call the black sea "Caliph's Lake". It just sounded cool. And the only one in Anatolia is Independant, and they probably won't join diplomatically, Kara Qoyunlu. Saamwiil, the Humble 20:44, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I mean to say Mongol occupied Lithuania. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:18, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave the invasion of Europe for the next guy, I'm focusing on building up in the easy grounds so we are more prepared for the much harder European campaigns.

Also according to the map Ak/Kara Qoyunlu, Karamanid and Candar are still independent. I'm guessing these states are just going to have to be conquered by you or Dean? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:07, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

True, about Europe. About the Turkish states, they joined the Caliphate after the map was made. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:19, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, so just Kara Qoyunlu remains to be conquered. Anyway, I'll try to have that map of the provinces made by tomorrow or the day after; but its a pretty hectic time for me atm. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:49, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Some Ideas for provinces, better administration and help againsts foreigners.: That's all that I think should be done at time period. Otherwise, there might be some administration deficiency. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hejaz
 * Syria-Palestine
 * Tunisia
 * Nejd

Thanks, those provinces where what I was thinking of too. I'm gonna stay up late now & do a quick first draft of the map.

Also thoughts on the idea of a single Caliphate currency? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:07, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The Dinarulislam, maybe? What to peg it to, if at all? Saamwiil, the Humble 00:11, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well it'd be the currency of a leading superpower so I don't think we'd need to peg it. Plus if its the gold dinar, then the gold itself would have plenty of worth to keep it afloat. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:22, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Caliphate Provincial map
Right I wanna split up some of the bigger provinces of the Caliphate. Here opposite is my first draft of how I'd split up the current provinces. I would also like to split up the Qoyunlu province, but I'm confused to how the ethnic groups are split up there and I think you Saamwiil would be better positioned to say how we should do this. All I know is a Persian state should be formed in the South. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:22, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Correct, we could probably split off Baghdad, and some Persian states in the south like Lur and some others I can't think if. I however think the boundaries are kinda stick like. Also, I think splitting Hafsids into 3 states is exessive, it'd create a vaccum of power. Try 2. I'm also thinking that Rumelia, due to its newly found inaccessibility to the Ottoman Empire should be split off. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:34, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I remember something about East & West Libya being culturally different on the news a while back. Also its stick borders because I rushed it. Feel free to amend. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I've made a new map based on your suggestions and the new addition of Bahmani and Koli. Please bare in mind that on this map, the Ottoman province is split up into its European and Anatolian areas. The Ottoman state in Anatolia is simply known as Ottoman and the European state is Rumelia. You can't really see this on the map due to the sea and the Byzantines being in the way. Qoyunlu is split up into 4 states: Iraq, Persia, East Qoyunlu and West Qoyunlu.

Also thinking we compile a list of all the provinces once the new boundaries have been decided upon, and list them all with the player in control of them. We could also divide up the Non player provinces between us as well by doing this. Anyway is this new map okay with you all? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:11, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mmm. I think the Qoyunlular would revolt by being split into four states. It would be more plausible to do over a long period of time, for right now, I think Iraq should be fine to split of, then maybe East Qoyunlu. Also, let's not divide it all in one year. Let's try 3 or something. The Caliphate would lose control if we do it too quickly. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:19, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

But we're just spreading Qoyunlular control over multiple provinces. Why would they revolt? Qoyunlu would actually get more power because they would have more provinces thus more say in referendums (more Qoyunlu provinces to vote in a bloc), the people would be better represented and more people enter offices of power (i.e. more locals gain regional power). The only people negatively effected are those current rulers of the provinces being split up, who loose their power as they have to share it. But they could always be convinced to accept it as they aren't as many of them.

Everything other than Qoyunlu okay though? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:36, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we should create a list for when these go into affect. I'll start it for you:
 * 1788-
 * 1789-
 * 1790-
 * 1791-

Well I was just going to have post in the next Caliph post that the Caliph meets with all of the regional leaders, and they have a large meeting, eventually deciding upon the new provincial borders. I post the final, labelled map of the new provinces along with it too. Us players then will assume control of all the provinces (splitting up the non-player provinces between us players). I don't see why provincial boundary changes should be so spread out. I really don't see how people would revolt over this, I can only see the people losing some of their power complaining, which is the minority as the everyday person will be treated the same, if not better. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:51, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the sense of being apart of a proud province. Leaders not wanting to let go of power. Et cetera. Also, I am adding to this years actions that I invade the new Cossack Heminate and the Khanate. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:54, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hhmmm, well which ones you thinking will break off into their own province first? I'm thinking Hejaz and Palestine. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:12, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hejaz. And you're completely fine with us warring with the Cossacks, and the Mongols this year? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:16, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I'm fine with it. Also don't add any more new territories to the Caliphate unless you conquer them via war or the player agrees. If your vassalizing a nation or puppet, then please check it by me that the rules are being followed. Your take-over of Crimea was a bit random and too easy. It is never that easy to take over that much territory. Because other than your takeover of Crimea, all our provinces have been taken over legitimately. We can't have the Caliphate being punished by a bad mod event or else our enemies will jump on board to take advantage of it! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:25, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Russian traitors!
People I have uncovered a plot by the Russians in which they seek to defeat us! Look see, Royal Guns posted it on Andr3w's talk page. You may need to check the page history of Guns & Andr3w's talk pages in case it has been deleted. Here's the convo anyway for those too lazy to check:


 * Andr3w: Just to be clear. What is your intention by attacking Poland? We cannot aid anyside(Bavaria), none the less I am nervous to see a nation so close to HRE borders fall. I will not commit aid either way, I just want to insure that there is no overt(or covert) plan against the HRE. Also, I am confused as to why you appear to be helping the Muslims. We are Christian, regardless of the Schism between the two denominations. Bavaria has a fairly large Orthodox population due to high immigration over the years, we do not harm them.


 * Royal Guns: HAHAH that's the genius part. The 'Muslim Alliance' is just to wait till their advantage ends, then we shall strkie with the HRE together, smashing open the Caliphate. There is only one true religion, and all that.


 * And no, we have no intentions and the HRE. Worry not. We'd die if we tried, anyway, so...

So yeah guys, don't trust the Russians to be neutral! I was wary at the Russian proposal first anyway but this just seals it! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I've known about Russian tretchery before, they said they aid Poland in a war against us. But never this direct. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:58, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

OOHHH... you metagamers. You cannot use that knowledge in game, or I shall accuse you of metagaming and get thoust post stricken.

Yeah, though, guilty.

The Royal Guns (talk) 01:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

What...I wanted to invade poland to get teh coastline and crimea(although before I found out it was a province). Novgorod only wanted to not get attacked by the Caliph. Novgorod had no idea what was going on... I was serious. Novgorod wants neutrality...the same can not be said about moscow. I have no way of knowing what Guns wants.-Lx (leave me a message) 01:14, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm fine with neutrality, but I never thought it was a good idea (or that plausible) for an alliance with you Russians. I was planning to oppose it but now I'll kick and scream against it. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

hey, that was novgorod's proposal: we have a temporary alliance to defeat the Khanates(in an enemy of my enemy is my friend way because they are very much annoying us both and after that we have no reason to remain allies), and then agree not to attack each other unless you harm our denomination of christianity(orthodox) and discriminate at a governement level(we can not control the people obviously)or we harm your denomination of(or all) muslims and/or discriminate them. Orthodox will stand equal with denomination x of muslims in both nations(or at least on a governement level, you can have your people purpetrate hate crimes or have massive violence as long as you do show some effort to stop it like policing and "peacekeeping" and do not support the hate and discrimination unilateraly). -Lx (leave me a message) 16:15, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Leave Lx out of it. He had nothing to do with it (sorry). But, anyways... that plan was only if you launch an assault on Europe, more specifically Brandenburg or Bavaria- if not, you're safe as houses.But anyway, ti's really not plausible for that alliance to stand until the Khanates are wiped out.

Besides, before I came you guys were 'worrying about us'. In the sense, we're a threat, so you have to take out Muscovy and Novgorod to attack Europe.

You were wrong. You need only take Muscovy. But now that Bavaria and Brandenburg are in it, you'll have the entrie HRE smashing into your side if you tried. If you don't attack the HRE (or us) you're fine.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:35, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Rule Change
OK, I am really considering making the Caliphate like the HRE, with numerous member states but players only being able to control their player states. Its unfair to have a giant multinational union that can have like +30 on all algorithms because it has so many members. How long is this Caliphate going to last? Because if it is multiple decades, I'm probably going to try and make this rule change. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:51, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

How about an intermezzo stage. Only NPCs that can actually make big difference in a war count, ex. Circassia, Dulkadir and Ramazan are all adept after experiencing multiple wars, while Georgia is not is not, and Yemen probably can't reach a European conflict with any large number of troops. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:57, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Look at the size of our provinces compared to the HRE though; our nation is a huge superpower! We have more troops, people and money! We are also much more unified than the HRE too. Only a grand alliance of nations could stand up against us, otherwise it'd be implausible for an alliance of 10 smaller player states to get a higher nation aid score than 1 huge Caliphate. Remember not every province in the Caliphate is going to contribute to the war, as some are just too far away to send troops. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:03, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Granada
It appears as if Granada wishes to leave. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:32, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Also Von, can you do the algortihm for the Khanate? You can take my algorithm I used with the Cossacks and change it. I need to do some work. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:36, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

They seemed never to be part of it, according to Wilster, but they're attempting to annex the Marinids, and since I'm planning to expand the Caliphate into Africa, that'll be a problem. So I say leave them alone right now (if we don't deal with them, Castile and Aragon will do) but if they take too much of Morocco we invade. Fed (talk) 22:41, October 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Or, what about we invade Morocco right now and not risk anything? Fed (talk) 22:45, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Its quite late and I got an early start 2moz so I can't do the whole thing, also I am very busy 2moz, probably won't get a chance to come on here until Friday.

As for Morocco, we could invade Morocco before they do or at the same time. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:49, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Cossacks
So when are we releasing the Cossacks from under direct control? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:28, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Also, are we going to take back Crimea or the Zayyanids? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:32, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

I believe we should retake Crimea by war as soon as we can and leave the Hetmanate as a puppet. Algiers can wait although we should take it before 1500. Fed (talk) 23:37, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have a plan. How about a semi-canal going through suez. Not like how we know it today, but to have a lot of buildings their and de-desertisation. It would help bring Oman, Yemen, East Yemen, and Shaybah into European conflicts. And we conquered the Hetmanate, we can do anything with the territory, I was wondering when would it be considered stable to put under a regional gov't, since right now, the Caliph andministres it directly. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:45, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Nah I don't think that will be plausible. Supplies can always just be sent instead. Leave Oman, Shaybah, the Yemens and Bahmani & co to deal with the wars in the east and you guys focus on Europe. If the war is big enough, then its perfectly plausible for supplies from the eastern provinces to be sent, so if we need it, we can but don't rely on them too much because it usually won't happen. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:29, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

HoThe Provincial border changes I just did
Hey, basically I went ahead and did the province split up because that way we can't have provinces declaring independence for nationalistic reasons and feelings of misrepresentation. I'll write up a list of all the provinces later today and put the name of the player of who controls the province next to it. If your province is splitting up then you control all of the new provinces it has split up into, meaning that no body is loosing any territory but just getting more provinces to control. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:01, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Okay the province list is complete. All the provinces are listed (going west to east in order) and have the player who control's them name next to it. I have done a similar list for vassals and colonies too. I also did a map of the Caliphate as it stands in 1482 and labelled it so everything is crystal clear. Basically just post as your provinces now! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:11, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'd rename East Yemen to, Libya into since it's the only region of Libya it controls and Bahmani into. Looks good otherwise. Fed (talk) 01:20, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

They make much more sense, I'll change them. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:39, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

The Cossacks need to be added. Saamwiil, the Humble 18:20, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also, when do you think Cossacks will be stable for regional administration? Saamwiil, the Humble 18:41, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm not sure. Also what we going to call the new Cossack province? Calling it Cossack province doesn't sound right... <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 09:01, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, how about Slavia? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:46, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

I'm declaring war on Crimea next year. Cossack territory is isolated, and that isn't a good thing. Also does the name Slavia work as a province name? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:50, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Slavia is Latin-sounding, you should make it Arabic-sounding, like Al-Slava or something. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:00, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Al-Slava is a bit better. Anyway I'm making the new province map on Friday so please try to come up for some more names. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 11:36, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Ah! No more provinces. The Caliph is running out of children with Hassan's sister to put on Qoyunlular thrones. I'm think about Al-Slaviyye or Al-Slaveit. The first I added the iyye (city, or place) ending, then the second, eit which I think is a diminutive, so it would be like little Slava, in the case we expand more. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:25, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

No new provinces just updating the current map with the 2 new provinces (this cossack one & Nejd) Might also have beaten Sind by then so maybe 3. I think I'll go with Al-Slaveit in case of future expansion in the region like you say. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm probably over-anylising all of this, but do you feel Yank has a secret hatred against us? Saamwiil, the Humble 03:01, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind, he just said quite open;y that he doesn't like the Caliphate. Which is why I'm assuming he is pounding on every possibility to destroy it. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:42, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Well that would be biased mod behaviour then, call him out on it if he does it any more. Abusing your mod events to better your nation or attack other nations is against the rules. Mods are meant to be as neutral as possible.

I will say though, everyone who is not in the Caliphate is annoyed at how good we are. We're following the rules and there is nothing they can do about it. I do notice a lot of hostility towards us. Hence they pull us up on every minor rule violation, most of these stemming from their own ignorance about what we've been doing. Jealousy is an ugly thing. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 16:25, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Less jealousy, and more fear. You happen to be stronger than every other Bloc and country in the world.

The Royal Guns (talk) 18:58, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Need to add Crimea and Cossack to map. I'm giving them there own government as soon as I become Caliph (next turn). Saamwiil, the Humble 19:32, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Constitution
People, can you please read the constitution, again, and if you haven't read it. We are mentioning stuff in game that has already been created. Such as a court, and Mecca and Medina being controlled by the Caliph. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Muslim_Treaty_(Principia_Moderni_II_Map_Game)

Saamwiil, the Humble 20:10, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Should Jerusalem be added to the map as a province similar to how Mecca & Medina have been then? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:11, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

I guess so. My interpretation was that the Caliph ruled the cities them selves, no land around it, but yeah. You can add it. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:40, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

War With Byzantium
So, here are the Provinces I think should be leading (combination of proximity and might): Any objections? Saamwiil, the Humble 23:45, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ramazan
 * West Qoyunlu
 * Rumelia
 * Anatolia

I think just Anatolia and Rumelia. Ramazan is quite small and far away to lead a war like this (perhaps Ramazan lead invasion of Cyprus). West Qoyunlu is also a bit far away to lead this too. If we use 4 nations then we're just going to see a lot of raging over the algorithm once again, being biased towards large alliances. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hm. Neither Ramazan or or West Qoyunlu are that far away. But I'll take Ramazan off. But can you do the research for Rumelia and Anatolia, see how many turns they've been expanding. Also, for a backbone country, I think we should leave West Qoyunlu in. It's the most experienced in war with Christians through-out the Caliphate. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:04, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Military expansion for Rumelia and Anatolia? Ehh, I wanna go bed, its 1:24 am & I gotta be up in the morning you know. Apologises but just immense tiredness kicking in now. Anyway goodnight now. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:24, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

The aftermath of the HRE war
Okay, it seems we have lost this war. I'm also killing off the Caliph Marwan III and having the successor negotiate for peace. I'll post a map soon of how much territory we should loose from this war, as well as some provincial border changes caused by our territory losses/ the new Caliph's plan to prepare the Caliphate to absolutely destroy the Europeans in the next war.

So what should the new Caliph be called then guys? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:08, October 22, 2012 (UTC)

Okay here is the map of how the territory will change following the outcome of the war. Note we have gained the Venetian & Papal state's small outposts in Anatolia because I think if this was a real war we'd go for those first and win fairly easy. This map is basically how I think the territory held during this war looks now. I also think this would cause large scale rebellions in non-Muslim majority areas like Wallachia, so I purpose we let a rebellion take place in Wallachia as the Christians try to get Wallachia independent. This would of course be from using a war algorithm to decide if we suppress the rebellion or not. Plus we can test out the new algorithm too.

So yeah is this map okay with you guys? And ideas for names of the new provinces too if you can. Plus what to call the new Caliph? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:00, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliph should be Muhammad ibn Marwan, his eldest son, ruler of West Qoyunlu. I'm planning on him having a son named Muhammad and his son having 2 sons named Muhammad who vie for Caliph. Saamwiil, the Humble 02:22, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

I honestly don't think a Caliph should be named Muhammad. Sounds a bit sacrilegous to me, heh. Maybe an Umayyad name, Ibrahim or Yazid, or if we want a bit of Sunni-Shi'a conflict Hasan or Ali? Fed (talk) 02:52, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nonononono. LOol. It's the opposite. Muslims are encouraged to be named after the prophets. Also, this sets us up to have the Mahdi, and, since the Mahdi is going to be fake, they can always say his brother was supposed to be Mahdi! Saamwiil, the Humble 02:55, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Saamwiil's right, Muhammad is the most common first name in the world because so many Muslims are named Muhammad. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:58, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

sadly my provinces will be crushed :( with Wallachai probably being absorbed. I hate how biased the mods are agaisnt us. (DeanSims: Talk) 11:23, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * No worries we'll get them back yet! <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:57, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think we might have actually win. :D Maybe, if nothing changes. Also, how many pixels do our opponents have? Saamwiil, the Humble 17:32, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

'''Most importantly, do you guys agree with the map? Also with Wallachia rebelling and war breaking out with it as we try to stop the rebels. I'll post our proposal for the war's result to the main game's talk page if you do.'''
 * ...I get the Hetmanate and Bulgaria, but you are granting them everything but the desertic parts of Tunisia if you do that Fed (talk) 23:28, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay I updated the map. Better? I also realized Naples never had any land in Crimea so I split their bit between Russia & Venice. <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:38, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Also what relation will this new Caliph be to the last one? I don't really know how Caliph succession works. I'm thinking of close advisor & cousin to Marwan III, general to the Caliphate armies in Hejaz, Yazid IV. So is Yazid IV okay with you all? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:57, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, as it would make it easier, the council would have to agree 2/3 on a successor. I propose his eldest son, Muhammad. And in order not to have an interregnum, could we kill him after the council decides out of game. The process should take less than 1 month in game. I also believe we've won, as abovementioned. But as stands, we can gain less than 1% of territory. Saamwiil, the Humble 03:36, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agenda
So, I'm putting in this pot the things we want to do in 20 years. Anyone can add to this, I'm adding mine, they are not in order:
 * Expand influence in Arabia (in progress)
 * Become more centralised, as in being able to relay information more quickly, be able to have troops around very quickly and put down revolts if they occur. This would require massive road building, and their'd be no in game benifit, but it would help the empire.
 * Conquer the Timurids
 * Conquer the last Qoyunlu
 * Conquer Algeria
 * Conquer Morocco
 * Conquer Nogai Horde
 * Conquer Moldova

Well Algeria and Morocco are two separate nations, so I split that up into 2 points. But I'm currently using Nejd and Shaybah provinces to expand into Arabia to defeat the Bedouin. I have ordered it in the way I'd approach it too. Which one is the Nogai horde BTW? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:09, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Nogai no longer exist. LurkerLordB (Talk) 23:27, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tunisia
The list of provinces says I am controller of the provinces of Tunisia and Tripolitania. While I get Tripolitania, it was Saam who had Tunisia into the Caliphate, so shouldn't it belong to it? Fed (talk) 01:53, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

And Tirpolitani technically. but you should have it. I already have loads of provinces to post for, and with Eastward Expansion. Saamwiil, the Humble 04:06, October 24, 2012 (UTC)