Talk:New Union/Archive 2

Some more ideas... ура!
"UNICORNS AND GLITTER!!!"

Sorry, guess I am a little hyper at the moment. Anyway, here are a couple of ideas I would like to throw around and get some feedback on, because I personally am stumped on an answer.


 * Decline of NATO?: I have recently reconsidered the expansion of NATO for TTL, and have decided that the Soviets would not allow NATO to expand anymore east. I have come up with an even more interesting idea, what I call the, in which Poland and so on declare their neutrality between NATO and the CSTO, but agree on joint and equal cooperation. With that said and done, I have recently been thinking about France. I never knew this, but France has not been an active part of NATO since the 1960s. NATO forces in France no longer exist, but France continues to work as part of NATO. In fact, it has only been recently (i.e., the Civil War in Libya) that France has openly discussed reintegrating with NATO. Maybe with the USSR continuing to exist, and having friendly relations with the west, and France's importance with European Integration, maybe France would go in a completely different direction. Maybe France would drop their cards and completely leave NATO all together. It doesn't sound so far-fetched to me. Out of all the NATO nations, France has had the closest relations with the USSR during the later years of the Cold War (including French cosmonauts as part of the Intercosmos program). I also have been trying to reinterpret the EU in TTL. While EU membership is taken by Russia as being absolute relations with the west in OTL, the EU would be taken as a more neutral organization, which forms as a means to protect the sovereignty of Europe from the USSR and USA, and France would be a big part in this. Just as in OTL, the EU is growing and growing, possibly going to become a superpower in the following century, so I believe it would have to eventually move towards its own sphere. So in short, with the Cold War over, the end of the Iron Curtain, and the USSR working peacefully with the west, the French would reconsider their involvement in NATO. With Poland, Czechoslovakia, et al. forming what would become the "Neutral Bloc," France considered itself in a similar situation. In fact, France only left NATO command because it too wanted to protect its sovereignty (believing NATO was more in control by the US and UK, while France was on the bottom). In response to the Neutral Bloc, France would declare their secession from NATO, which wouldn't be so much of a problem since NATO forces haven't been in France in decades. France declare to establish equal cooperation with NATO and the USSR. Maybe Germany and other NATO members would follow suit, leaving only the US, UK, and the most loyal members left in NATO. Though still a major military bloc, it would not be as powerful as in OTL (while the Soviet bloc would also be just as loose). France (and maybe Germany, if they too decide to leave) would be the main players in the future of the EU, leading to the rise of "Europeanism," the idea that Europe should be in control of Europeans, not by the Americans or the Soviets. So ironically, the US would also loose their bloc in Europe.
 * Yugoslav Republic of Dardania: In TTL, I have already decided that the Yugoslav-Kosovar relations would be more peaceful. Though not brotherly, it would be peaceful enough to avoid war and the further collapse of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia would elect Milo Đukanović as president in 1997 for is support of a Soviet-like system of sovereignty in Yugoslavia. Unlike Slobodan, Dukanovich (with great support from Gorbachev) would work to bring peace between the Slavic majority and the Albanian minority. In 2000, Kosovar President Ibrahim Rugova (just as in OTL) would propose the creation of "Dardania" (a historic name for Kosovo, used by Albanians in the region). But unlike OTL, this Dardania is larger. Rugova would propose a united republic between the "" (the Serbian controlled region that we all know as Kosovo), and the self proclaimed "Republic of Ilirida" (the Albanian regions in Macedonia). Ironically, Serbs would welcome the idea (primarily because it would keep the region within Yugoslavia, and because Serbia has already expanded to include Srpska), but the Macedonians would be a little bit peeved at the idea. After a minor crises in 2001, the Albanians of Macedonia request to become part of a greater Yugoslav-Albanian republic. In 2002, the Albanians gain their wish. The Republic of Dardania is formed with the unification of Kosova and Ilirida, and now the "Dardanians" gain full sovereignty and equality in Yugoslavia.

I would really appreciate some feedback, get some external opinions before I consider making any of this canon. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:40, April 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * The Dardania concept is a good one. I'm not so sure, mind about the French leaving NATO, however. They haven't left since the collapse of the USSR otl, and enjoy the little "security blanket" it offers them - i.e. they don't have to do anything, but get all the benefits anyways. Here, with the USSR still intact, though not so imperialistic or controlling, I kinda doubt that they would shed this. It's not like they normally listen to NATO anyways, lol. Maybe just have them pull their troops out of Germany like otl, and aid the Soviets in the third world somewhat? Lordganon 19:03, April 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much for your feedback, Lordganon. Now that I do think of it, it may be good for France to remain in NATO, but I think it should remain out of the command in any case. I still need to work out the kinks on Dardania, but glad to hear it sounds good.


 * I also came across an interesting find that might be interesting for Japan... maybe. I read that Gorbachev was planning on established better Soviet-Japanese relations, and one of the ways he wanted to do this was to bring and end and work out the . Gorbachev made it clear that the USSR would not hand over all the islands, but would be willing to discuss the Northern Territories (the southernmost islands that are closest to Japan). When the USSR collapsed, Yeltin's government was more defiant on loosing any of the islands, and more worried about internal affairs. Though I can't say how this would turn out, maybe the USSR would agree on the Japanese definition, or vise versa, but there was a proposal to only give the southern most and smallest islands back to Japan. It isn't a bad idea, after all, the USSR was than finalizing border disputes between neighboring China, so why not give Japan back these islands, and make better friends with Japan than the Russo-Japanese relations are now. Also, I came across an article which along with mentioning the visit, Japan offered aid to the Chernobyl tragedy. IRONY! --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:22, April 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, even Putin as recently as a few years ago offered the return of the two smallest southern ones in exchange for a permanent peace treaty, which the two have still not signed. By the sounds of that article, if you have the Soviet Union offer the southernmost 4 or so, in exchange for the treaty, the Japanese would do it. With Gorby wanting to work it out, I think that's reasonable. Lordganon 15:00, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. After doing some more reading, I am more eager to have the this work out. I read that Japan was one of the inspirations for perestroika. If Gorby (I love that, but I keep forgetting about it) was really willing to talk about it, I think it could work out in favor for both. Japan gets the Northern Territories (all four islands), in exchange that Japan not militarize the islands (similar to the USSR's position on the German Reunification), the rights of Soviet citizens living on the islands, and opening up aid and economic cooperation between the USSR and Japan. IMHO, I don't think loosing these islands would be as much of a big deal for Gorby, as he live in a nation that would be twice the size of Yeltin's Russia, and the backing of the republics. The USSR also gained portions of Moldova and Gerogia just prior to when this would be made official, and imagine the economic boom that the USSR and Japan (who at the time were both declining [the USSR more than Japan]). I will work it out a little, but I am happy to think about it. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:12, April 8, 2011 (UTC)

Just don't forget that the peace treaty would have to be part of the arrangement. Past that, sounds great. Lordganon 04:34, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

Taiwan SAR?
A few weeks ago, an anonymous user created a page for. In the "OTL equivalent," it states that it was China and Taiwan. I don't know if it was a typo, their definition, or whether they had an idea they wanted to propose. I am not an expert on China, but I do know that there are Two Chinas. The People's Republic of China is the communist government for the mainland (which also includes Hong Kong and Macau as SARs), while Taiwan is governed by the democratic (and nationalist) Republic of China. I have been doing some quick reading on the aspect of Chinese reunification, and found out that the policy which would reunite Hong Kong and Macau with the mainland was called. The policy was made by Deng something (Chinese Gorby?), and was maid primarily for the reunification of the mainland and Taiwan. Though the policy would eventually reunite China and two cities, Taiwan is still separate. I read that this was due to more politicians supportive of independence (the formation of a "Republic of Taiwan"), rather than reunification.



But after doing some reading, I think that there could be a possibility that the OCTS could work out in favor of a full reunification of China. I was thinking of a double-edged sword, in which both sides cave in and lead to a (potentially) better atmosphere for both. Here's what I thought of:


 * Gorbachev's openness to its neighbors has begun to scare some people in the PRC. In only a matter of years, the USSR has reopened relations with Japan (by giving back the northern territories), and has established relations with South Korea (a nation which it did not recognize just years earlier). There was growing fear that Gorbachev may try to establish relations with the Republic of China. Though many nations recognize the ROC, the fact that the USSR would made many fear that this would lead to a shift in the region, and would cause the USSR to potentially support Taiwanese independence. Because of this, the PRC would be more determined to reunite the two Chinas, even if it means loosening the proposed polices to do this (i.e., more autonomy for Taiwan?).
 * On the other side of the strait, the reforms of the USSR into a union of sovereign states has spread across Taiwan. Though there would still be a divide, more and more Taiwanese show interest in reunification. The idea would be loved more when the PRC offers changes to its original proposal, which would be somewhat more beneficial for Taiwan.

Some point prior to 1996, the reunification of Taiwan and the mainland would take place. Later, Hong Kong and Macau would become part of the PRC, completing the reunification. Just like OTL HK, Taiwan would gain autonomy (if not more that OTL). The TWD would remain the currency on the island, and capitalism would remain on the island. Taiwan would retain a separate internet sever from the mainland (just as HK and Macau), which would lead to controversy today as Google would work there instead of the mainland. Though the mainland would like to keep it secret, the aspects of Taiwanese independence continues to exist on Taiwan, and would also have support from several in HK and Macau. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:27, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

A good idea in theory, but I have to kinda doubt it would happen unless China reformed its government to be like your USSR did here. Even then, it would probably just stay independent, but with a much more pro-reunification view than otl. Lordganon 01:15, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

Union of Balkania


I was just browsing through the Wikipedia and I dug up an article about a proposed state called "Balkania". It was the name of a proposed state for a reformation of Yugoslavia, It was suggested by a Albanian politician Adem Demaci. I've created a flag for a concept, I've used the Byzantine eagle as the symbol, and the four stars for the 4 republics. Vidboy10 21:20, April 10, 2011 (UTC)




 * Great minds think alike. I actually considered this idea before, but I believe this was too optimistic for Yugoslavia at the time. I decided that it would be better to incorporate the Balkania idea in a different way. The words of Demaci would become big news in Yugoslavia, and would lead to the rise in republican sovereignty in Yugoslavia, and the formation of Dardania. Similar to how Saharov's proposed constitution to the Soviet Union in 1989 was used in some reference for the New Union Treaty, I think the politicians would have to tweak it before it became true. But man, I am amazed you have heard about the idea too. Where did you find the flag? I had to go reading threw Serbian books in order to find even the description that Demaci proposed. Here's what I made a while ago, I can't believe how similar they are. Thank you for bringing this up, you made my day ^_^ --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 21:49, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

Libya
Ever since Libya broke out into civil war, it has turned this timeline upside down for me. It is hard to really figure out the situation for the region, because Libya was the biggest Middle Eastern ally of the USSR. Libya would be the first nation to recognize Russia as the successor state of the USSR in OTL, so I believe it would be one of the first to recognize the new government of the USSR.

It is both easy and hard to determine what will become of Libya. If anything, Libya would probably turn out to be just like Egypt. There was not foreign intervention in Egypt, primarily because it was a major US ally. Now with me reading the possibility that Libya may collapse into three or so new nations, it is now getting more confusing. So let me get my ducks in a row. Here's what I want for Libya, that would be possible for TTL.


 * Libya would not break down into several nations. If anything, it may turn out like the USSR, in which it is a federation of sovereign states. This would only be if Gadaffi leaves power. Otherwise, I see nothing against dividing the nation into several states.
 * The USSR would not allow foreign intervention in Libya. So no NATO-led invasion as OTL. However, the USSR would support sanctions against Libya, and would publicly denounce Gadaffi's actions against the Libyan people.
 * Many Libyan rebels would look towards both the USSR and the USA for assistance. While the USA would probably go completely in support for the rebels, the USSR would be more or less "neutral." In most cases, Medvedev and the USSR would be more supportive of a ceasefire rather than a complete victory of one side. The USSR (both politically and demographically) would be divided between pro-Gadaffi and pro-Rebel. Many in the USSR (especially the Islamic republics) would favor democracy for Libya. In fact, many Soviet citizens who remained in Libya would advocate Soviet support for the rebels, possibly with many volunteers from the USSR traveling to Libya (any way they could) to assist in the conflict. There would also be rumors that Medvedev and the Soviet government are aiding the rebels in Libya, though it has not been confirmed.

Still have a lot to work out, but either way, it will be interesting. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 14:25, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry too much about the splitting of Libya just yet, nuke. While it may happen, I personally doubt it. However, it is out there, specifically because of the artificial nature of Libya - the ruler of Cyrenica was given the other thrones in the aftermath of WWII, against quite a few wishes. At most, Libya could go into Tripoliana and Cyrenica. At this point, though, its more so a question of how long things go on than who succeeds. Lordganon 15:44, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

New Republics of the Union
1) About republics of the USSR. Their number should grow much. At first, in 1990-s many ASSR of RSFSR wanted to be transformed in the Union republics, with all the ensuing economic benefits. All ASSR in their new constitutions, taken around 1991, named themselves SSR. This is first.

Some so called “Russian” regions of RSFSR would form SSR too. In August 1991 was formed Cossack republics in the Caucasus region: Batalpashinsk Cossack SSR and Zelenchuk-Urup Cossack SSR. 30 November Union of Cossack republics of southern Russia was proclaimed as Union republic in the New Union. This is second.

New wave of forming the SSR can started in the middle 1990-s. OTL economical troubles prompted some governors to try to equate their region on the status of a national republic (such as Anatoly Efremov and Pomor Republic proposal in Arkhangelsk or Eduard Rossel and Ural Republic proposal in Sverdlovsk) – to more easily manage the budget. In New Union TL this regions also can form SSR. This is third.

I think, that in NU TL such as in OTL economical troubles of 1990-s lead to the rebirth of the communist opposition. In OTL Russia during this times was term “the Red Belt” – regions, where the local power belonged to CPRF. In TTL, this regions also can try to form SSR – where socialist values will preserved and legitimized in constitutions in 1936-style. This is forth.

So, after all of the above, RSFSR in the New Union, I think, will totally disappear. And in the middle 2000-s same thing will be happen with Ukraine. The contradictions between the East and West, which OTL took the form of the struggle between Yushchenko, Tymoshenko and Yanukovich TTL can divide Ukraine into several parts, and Western Ukraine even can secede from the Union.


 * Здравствуйте, 2303. Haven't seen you in a while. Don't know why you made mention that Baltia was a failure, since I said you could work on it. Anyway, time to comment on several of these suggestions^_^

ASSRs like Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Chechnya, and a united Ossetia (just to name a few) would make excellent republics. ASSRs like Komi, Tuva, and Karelia would make bad republics, either because the Russians would rule them more than in other republics, or their population is too sparse. It was because of this that the Karelo-Finnic SSR was a short-lived republic. In many cases, I am sure many of the proclaimed SSRs would have settled for greater sovereignty in their autonomy within Russia, while the others would be welcomed as full republics.
 * The Cossacks declared their own republics? Is this backed by true accounts, or is this an idea you came up with. Either way, I am actually quite fascinated at the idea. If the Circassians can gain their own republic, I would be honored for the Cossacks to also gain a republic. But the question would be whether their republic would be feasible (see 2 below)
 * I am quite aware that pretty much every autonomous republic in the RSFSR (let alone the entire USSR). But the majority of these declarations of sovereignty would not have been feasible, and I believe many of them were only trying to send a message to Moscow. I read somewhere that the USSR has a "criteria" for what defines a SSR. But since it was never official or constitutionally used, I have been quite lenient on it. The three rules were: 1) A Union Republic must have a population no less than a million, to secure the republics militia and economy. I have been very lenient with this, lowering it down to be [more or less] 2/3 a million. 2) The titular peoples of the republic (the main ethnic group) must have a more or less majority in population. Pretty simple, and this rule I follow. 3) The proposed republic is not to be surrounded by other republics of the USSR, to help secure itself in the event of secession. This rule I find total BS, and I don't follow it at all. Both because this would prevent many republics (Tatarstan for one) from gaining republican status, but the idea of secession in any federation seems funny to me.
 * As for the self-proclaimed Republics like the Ural Republic, I feel they were created more out of equality from within the smaller Russian Federation. But just like OTL, I believe these proclaimed republics would not fair too well, and may only stand as a declaration for reforms within Russia itself.
 * As for the economic troubles, I believe they would be much less severe than OTL. In fact, with the USSR remaining in tacked, the standard of living would be much better for the republics during the 90s. Granted, it wouldn't be paradise, but it would be much better than OTL. So again, the ideas of creating more SSRs would not fair too well. I believe the communist party would still play an important role in the USSR. In fact, this "red belt" (which I have never heard about before, but I am going to read more about) may be bigger. But in the end, the USSR continues to be a multi-party state, not a single-party state.
 * As for the Ukraine splitting off, I would hope not and would like to avoid this. Just like for Yeltsin in TTL, his political views would be considered too "radical" in comparison to Gorbachev's reforms. I would believe that the Ukraine would never elect someone like Yushchenko or Tymoshenko, as they would also be considered too "radical." But yes, I have read several timelines where the Ukraine is split, bit I'd prefer to leave the Ukraine as a whole unless it becomes apparent that it would not work.


 * Hope this will help out. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:59, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1)Yes, but only Southern Cossaks. In Cossak Union would be 6 republiks:Batalpashinsk, Zelenchuk-Urup, Armavir, Upper Kuban, Don and Terek (with Sunzha region of Chechnya) all of them was proclaimed till 1991
 * 2) I meen just Tatarstan, Chechnya, Bashcortostan + Saha and Tuva, Chercessya and mb united Karachai-Balkaria
 * 4) In my mind, USSR was multy-party state since 1990.. (CPSU, Democratic Union, CRC, LDPSS...)
 * 5) And what do you think about Crimea?
 * 5) And what do you think about Crimea?

I am really, really interested in adding Cossackia. However, I can't find any links to back your claims. Do you have any links to the proposal, I would love to back the information up for myself. I have already made Yakutia (Sakha) as a republic, because its population is over 900,000, and has a close majority of Yakuts. As for Tuva, it has a good majority of Tuvans, but has a population smaller than Wyoming. Granted, I agree that Tuva should become a republic, but statistically it wouldn't be sound. As for the Crimea, if you are talking about republican status, I think not. Despite the fact that it was once home to the Crimean Tatars, the population is primarily Russian today. Only if all of the Ukraine were to leave the Union would I agree to allow the Crimea to become a republic. But as I mentioned before, I will not agree on splitting up the Ukraine unless it is completely justifiable for this timeline. Even if it were to be split up, the Crimea would be part of an "East Ukrainian State." I believe it gaining the status of autonomous republic (as in OTL) would suit the Crimeans just fine.

Also, thank you so much for the flags. I never saw them before. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 14:49, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

links about Cossakia? Please, at least http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%85%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%8F_%D0%9A%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8C - Верхняя Кубань from Russian Wikipedia.


 * Ooh la la! I am hooked already. Do you know of any maps of this proposed republic, or have any knowledge of their borders? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:07, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but only this variant (photo from Arthur Tsutsiev’s “Atlas of ethno-political history of the Caucasus”). Proposals of that times.
 * Sorry, but only this variant (photo from Arthur Tsutsiev’s “Atlas of ethno-political history of the Caucasus”). Proposals of that times.

1) Nogai autonomy proposal

2) Kabarda (separated from Balkaria) + part of Northen Ossetia

3) Balkaria (separated from Kabarda)

4) Karachay

5) Nothern Ossetia

6) Chechnya

7) Ingushetia (+ part of Nothern Ossetia)

8) Kumyk autonomy proposal

9) Lesser Dagestan (Avar- Dargin authonomy)

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">10) Lezgin autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">11) Cossak Union proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">12) Talish autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">13) Borchalo Armenian autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">14) Javakheti Azerbaijan autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">15) Nagorny Karabah

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">16) Abkhazia

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">17) Southern Ossetia

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">18) Ajaria

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">19) Shapsug autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">20) Circassian- Abaza autonomy proposal

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">21) Adygea

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 54pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">22) Nakhichevan



Wow, thank you so much for the map. It really helped me out. I guess you would call this dumb luck, but I found that same image online. Do you own the book and scanned it? (just curious) But anyway, I have gone threw the borders and ideas, and I think I came up with a border that I can agree with. Here;s what I have:


 * Cossaskia: The proposed border of Cossackia seems to be very bad IMHO. Granted, Kuban Republic still remains in the Krasnodar Krai, and the Don Republic remains in the Rostov Oblast. But the Terek region no longer exists, divided between Stavropol and the many republics in the south. I find that Cossackia gaining all lost territory is impossible, while only gaining such a small stretch of land back is just pointless. Since Rostov and Krasnodar are going to go to the Cossacks, why not just let them have Stavropol as well? History has shown (especially in the USSR) that regions have been moved to other republic, even though it may seem weird. Russia gave the Crimea to the Ukraine and gave its half of Karelia to help form the Karelo-Finnic SSR. So why not let the Cossacks have all of this Krai. I believe I can also justify this for the TL. The Cossacks also claimed regions in Chechnya and Dagestan. I believe this (in the first place) is a bad idea. With the Chechens threatening to declare independence, I think Gorbachev would want to "butter up" the Chechens, preventing war and a second collapse. I still believe Chechnya would be the first new republic to form out of Russia, so the republic itself would have had say in the Supreme Soviet. I dough they would have been willing to give up any part of their land to the Slavs. Though Dagestan wouldn't have been as resistant, I believe it should be left out. So perhaps Moscow would offer all of the Stavropol Krai, in exchange that they drop their claims in Chechnya and Dagestan.


 * Dagestan: I had no idea that the people of Dagestan wanted to divide the region. However, I believe this would not happen. Looking at the population of the many peoples, none of them hold enough to stabilize a new republic on their own. Here is a good example of where the saying "united we stand, divided we fall" applies outside the US. However, I see nothing wrong with these regions gaining autonomy. Maybe Dagestan would go the way as the Transcaucasus did in the early years of the USSR. Dagestan would become a "Federation of Dagestan;" with Kumykia, Lezgia, and Nogaistan becoming autonomous republic. The remaining portions (you call it "Lesser Dagestan") would not gain full autonomy, but would act as the main body within the Dagestani Federation. Azerbaijan may be willing to give over its Lezgi regions in exchange for the Azeri region within Dagestan, and since Stavropol is going to Cossackia, why not give the Nogai region to Nogaistan.


 * Circassia: I still believe there should be a Circassia in TTL. Granted, it would be smaller than my optimistic proposal, but there would still be one. I need to go threw and see what its population would be, but currently it could either become a full republic, or become an "Autonomous Federation" within Cossackia.


 * Karachay-Balkaria: I support the idea of a united Karachay-Balkaria. Do you have any idea if they intended to make a singular name for them as a united people?

Everything else is pretty much self explanatory. Ossetia agrees to hand over its northern regions in exchange to be united with the south, Kabardia would also agree to hand over its parts in the north. What do you think? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 22:30, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

1) About Circassia - I think, united republic can be only Union republic in USSR. Otherwise, why join?

2)Karachay-Balkaria. May be, such as Ossetia change this name to Alania, this republic would named "Kumania" (this people believe polovtsi (kumans) their ancestors.

3) Chechnya. United with Ingushetia only if there will be no Johar Dudayev, with his slogan Татары в Казань, русские в Рязань, ингуши в Назрань! I think new Checheno-Ingushetia can named Vainakhia - so that no one was hurt not.

4) Dagestan. You wariant is really possible. But I can not imagine, how it flag will look like? OTL flag is in reality flag of Russia,only white band, which including symbolizes Orthodoxy, changed to green - colour of Islam.




 * Thank you so much for your feedback. Vainakhia and Kumania? I have never heard those names, but I like them. I know North Ossetia wanted to name themselves Alania, but would the south be into that? Because in TTL, South Ossetia would have been admitted first, with the north being transferred from Russia to the south. Personally, I like the name "Ossetia" better than Alania. And if all these republics are going to be renamed, than that may leave open the possibility of Tatarstan renaming itself "Bulgaristan." Next, I have been rethinking the republics of the USSR. I may be willing to loosen the criteria even more. Here is a map I made to show my opinion of the republics of Russia:


 * Red republics I am firmly denying any republican status. Their populations are primarily Russian. These will remain autonomous republics within Russia (or such)
 * Yellow republics I may be open to allowing. They may have very low populations, but are primarily their titular peoples. Mari El has more Russians, but the divide is almost half. (Russians:47%; Mari:42%)
 * Light blue republics I am semi-open to. Their populations are primarily Russian, but the divide between the Russian population and the titular population is close enough for me.
 * Green republics meet all the criteria for me, and have already been added.
 * The black ones are the regions that are going to need to be recalculated before I can decide what is good for them.

Circassia I am going to have too take a good look at before I make a decision. I agree that what is the point in uniting if they are not a republic. But I personally don't like the idea of having a republic made of enclaves. This was the main reason I made Gagauzia claim more regions of Moldova. But if any of these Circassian enclaves is meet my criteria, than none of them can be an AR. So for me, its either all or none. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:35, April 28, 2011 (UTC)




 * Just making an update. Looking at the Parade of Sovereignties map, it looks like that the proposed "Shapsugsky National District" seemed more unlikely than the other three Circassian regions. Maybe this proposed district would not hold true here, but the other "republics" would unite to form a Circassian Federation. Sorry, I am OCD, and I am not a big fan of enclaves (as said above). And before I forget it again, I have been using the proposed yellow-blue-yellow-blue flag that may or may not have been proposed for Dagestan. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:23, April 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">(from http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/index.htm)
 * <p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">(from http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/index.htm)

<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">Declares SSR status in OTL:

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">1) Mari SSR – Mari EL – October 1990

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">2) Kadarda-Balkaria SSR – January 1991

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">3) Mordvin SSR - December 1990

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">4) Tatar SSR – August 1990

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">5) Altai SSR – July 1991

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">6) Dagestan SSR – May 1991

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">7) Komi SSR – August 1990

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">8) Yakut SSR – September 1990

<p style="text-indent: -18pt; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1">9) Soviet Republic of Tuva - December 1990

<p style="text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">10) Chechen-Ingush Republic – November 1990, Chechen Republic – July 1991

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">11) Bashkir SSR – October 1990

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">12) Karachai-Cherkes SSR – November 1990 (as part of RSFSR)

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">13) Northern Ossetia SSR – July 1990 (as part of RSFSR)

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">14) Chuvash republic – October 1990

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">15)   South Ossetia Soviet Democratic Republic – October 1990

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">16)   Pridnestrovian Moldavian SSR – October 1990

<p style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt 17.85pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; mso-add-space: auto">17)   Gagauz republic – August 1990


 * Well actually, all the ASSRs had some form of declaration of sovereignty (not just the ones you made mention to). I am getting pretty annoyed on trying to make a definition on what is an what isn't a republic. Why not just go all the way. All the autonomous republics will become union republics. The other autonomous enteties would either remain autonomous, or may become republics (depending on their population). I see nothing really wrong with this, and this would be the only way that these regions could really grow. Karelia can also regain its former status as a union republic. I have some interesting ideas, maybe Karelia could re-adopt their former KFSSR flag. Now I am getting excited. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:52, April 29, 2011 (UTC)

Flag and coat of arms proposals
Here is some heraldic proposals of early 1990-s

I have an idea about the State Symbols of the republics. The main image for imitation in the past during the Perestroika times was pre-Stalin USSR of 1920-s. I like an idea that in New Union can be restored some flags and emblems from that times.

Leaders
Really, I can't understand, how VVP (Vladimir Putin) could be USSR president in this TL. OTL he was, eventually, promoted worker from Yeltsin's entourage. He was appointed as successor in 1999, becaurse there was Second Chechen war, and Russia need hard leader to win. But in NU TL was neither Yeltsin no this war.

It may be truism, but the post-Soviet governments passed 3 stages: dissidents - Stanislav Shushkevich, Abulfaz Elchibey, Zviad Gamsakhurdia (in Russia thre was ni this stage, becaurse Andrey Saharov died in 1989); the old Soviet nomenklatura - Yeltsin, Kuchma, Aliyev, Shevardnadze; and new semi-nationalistic leaders - Putin, Yushchenko, Saakashvili. And what would be in NU TL?


 * Hmm... you got me there. I created this timeline with the basic information, and I have not gotten around to looking at the leaders. I guess the USSR would have leaders who are more or less in sync with Gorbachev. Where as people like Yeltsin and Yushchenko would be considered too radical. I always though of Putin being (though nationalist) more or less pro-Soviet and a "Soviet nationalist." If you have any suggestions for new Presidential candidates, I would love to hear the. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 17:16, April 27, 2011 (UTC)

Major updates for May 2011
After days of discussion with 2303, I believe we will be witnessing a major change and updating for the New Union timeline during May 2011. The new changes takes into account 2303s understandings of the and the role of communism and non-nationalism within the Soviet Union.

Here are a list of changes that will be taken into account:


 * New Republics: The Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics is a federated state made up of [about] ~30 republics and one federal city. Each republic runs as a sovereign nation, but have agreed to united under a joint and federal government, legislature, president, currency, and foreign relations. Including the nine republics which remained in the Union after glasnost and perestroika (as well as the already canon republics), several of the new republics include:
 * Circassia: The "Circassian Federation" is a republic made up of three Circassian enclaves. The enclaves include the, the Kabardian regions of , and the Cherkessian region of . The republic may also include the Shapsug regions on the Black Sea, but I have not made a decision as of yet.
 * Alania: The united "Republic of Alania," or better known in OTL as Karachay-Balkaria, is the united republic of the and the . I have gone across the internet, and found many sources claiming "Alania" as a good name for the united republic. It should be noted that  is officially named the "Republic of North Ossetia-Alania." As far as I can tell, Alania is primarily favored by the north Ossetians, and not necessarily the south Ossetians. I have already made canon that South Ossetia would be the center of TTL Republic of Ossetia. SO would have been admitted into the Union first, with the Ossetian unification happening when Russia agrees to transfer the north to the south. So in that case, Alania would be free for the Karachay-Balkars.
 * Vainakhia: The "People's Republic of Vainakhia" is actually the reformed government of the formerly proclaimed Chehen-Ingush SSR. With the August Coup not happening, the radical rise of Chehcen nationalism would not take place. Though Chechnya would not become peaceful over night, it would eventually agree on keeping a united government with the Ingush. It was proposed to rename the republic to "Vainakhia," with comes from a historical group that make up modern day Chehcens and Ingush.
 * Cossackia: The Cossacks have played an important role in Russian history. After years of simply claiming them to be Russians, the USSR agrees to define the Cossacks as their own people, and allowing them their own republic. The Rostov Oblast (Don Cossacks), the Krasnodar Krai (Kuban Oblasts), and the Stavropol Krai (Semi-Terek Cossacks) were transferred to the newly formed "Union of Cossack Republics." I have not made any of the following official, or have I even checked for accuracy, but it may be possible that the Crimea neighboring oblasts of the Ukraine may become part of this new republic. But no promises, so consider this as speculative.
 * Border Changes: I want to make it clear for the definitions above. There will be NO border changes to the Caucasian republics in TTL (as in OTL). The only changes will be that Karachay-Cherkessia and Kabardino-Balkaria will be divided into their basic components. The proposed Cossack region of Karahchay-Cherkessia (as well as other Cossack proposals in the region) would be "dropped" from the proposed Cossack state after Russia agrees to allow full Cossack sovereignty on the Stavropol Krai (which would add more area for Cossackia than would the other proposals put together). Plus this makes it easier for me to map out, and who says life is always fair.
 * Along with the key changes above,, , , , , , , and will be added as republics.  and  are currently in question by me. I may make them republics, but since the two did not gain autonomous republic status until the parade of sovereignties, it may be easier (and more likely) that these two may simply remain autonomous republics within Russia.
 * I am also going to be "fudging" the populations of may of the new republics over the next decades from the POD to now. With these republics now having the right to decide their economies and such, who's to say that OTL censuses would be accurate for TTL. So many of the republics would have population growths in TTL. Though not population BOOMS, but you get the idea.


 * The Communist Party may play a more important role in the USSR than I have been saying prior. I remember reading a quote which describes the differences between Soviet communism and Chinese communism, and their reforms. It was something like... "The Soviets were willing to keep communism, but loose the totalitarianism; while the Chinese were willing to loose the communism, but keep the totalitarianism." Though not exactly correct, it is a good way to summarize it. I still need to think and study, but maybe Gorbachev would remain in the CPSU during his terms as President, allowing more reforms in the party. The next President after Gorbachev (see below) may or may not be a member of the Communist Party. There would be a larger "Red Belt" in the region than OTL. The Red Belt is a term used to describes the primarily communist regions within OTL Russia.


 * 2303 made it clear to me that Putin seemed like a bad idea to be President of the Soviet Union. His ideals are more in line with Russian nationalism. After thinking about it, I agree. Same goes with other politicians in the CIS today, in which there would be a new lineup of Presidents and so on. Though I have no idea at the present, it would be pretty interesting.

None of this has been made canon yet. However, I believe I may begin making many (if not all) of these canon during the first week of May. I want to leave open any corrections or last minute suggestions. Otherwise, I am really looking forward to this. Also, sorry for sounding outright in my speech, I have had a LONG day today, you know what I mean ;P --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 00:52, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Updates


If all of the ASSRs are going to be upgraded to full SSRs (I love abbreviations), than I believe we are going to have to also question on even more republics. With the parade of sovereignties having this kind of affect on Russia, and no Putin or semi-nationalist politicians in power, I believe we may see more autonomous regions declaring upgrading or even full republican status, or even [re]unification of more regions.

Here is a quick map I made to show what I mean. In recent years, Russia has gone threw steps to unify many of the federal subjects into larger (less autonomous) krais (you can read more about that here). But with Gorbachev remaining in power, and the sovereignty movements being successful, how is to say that wouldn't want to have the  and the  reunited into a Greater Buryatia, or  wanting to reunite with the  to create a Greater Komia. I also believe (in possibility) the Chukchi okrugs may unit to form a Chukchia, the Nenets may unite to form a Greater Nenetsia, while Evenkia, Khantia-Mansia, and the Jewish AO may request similar upgrades.

My real question is what would these regions become? Would they remain in Russia as ASSRs, or request full republican status. Not too sure at the percent, but I believe these regions would be more happy to remain in Russia. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 15:34, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

1) Greater Buryatia - very poussible, I think. As SSR. But is one problem - some Buryat nationalists want to unite whis Mongolia...

2) Greater Komi - I don't know any precedent.. but TTL may be.

3)Nenetsia - from Nenetsia+Yamal+Taimyr may create VERY BIG thinly populated but VERY RICH region (oil, nikel...). Economic power will fully provide status SSR.

4) Chukotka+Koryakia? WHY? I think they can't unite by definition....


 * I wouldn't worry to much about Mongolian nationalism. A greater Komia seemed like an interesting idea. Not too sure now if Nenetsia would be allowed republican status, but if it is that rich in resources, than maybe we could see a population boom in TTL. The reason I though about Chukotka and Koryakia uniting into Chukchia is because (ethnically) the two regions are similar. Similar to how the Circassians united, this may be a way for them to gain republican status. I also though about it because of another timeline I read. What do you think about the other regions? --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 16:07, April 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1))In contrast to the Circassians, the Chukchi and Koryak was no such unionist movement. And this people are predominantly assimilated - only third of the Koryak speaks native languages
 * 2)Demographic boom in Nenetsia is hardly possible. It is a country where, except for mushrooms and berries do not grow nothing. So, most of the food products they have brought from Central Russia.
 * 3) Khanty-Mansi - same as Nenetsia
 * 4)Evenkia - poor, thinly populated (17000 in 2006) and cold region. Maximum ASSR.
 * 5)Jewish Autonomous Region - national region only for name (4% Jews in 1989, 1,2% now) Why should they raise their status?
 * And - about first map - Moscow in russian is not Федеральный город, but Город Союзного Подчинения
 * 5)Jewish Autonomous Region - national region only for name (4% Jews in 1989, 1,2% now) Why should they raise their status?
 * And - about first map - Moscow in russian is not Федеральный город, but Город Союзного Подчинения
 * And - about first map - Moscow in russian is not Федеральный город, but Город Союзного Подчинения




 * I think I am now clear and ready to make canon soon. The USSR will be a federated state of 31 republics and one Union City. All of the ASSrs will be upgraded to SSRs, while the other autonomous regions will simply be upgraded to ASSRs (including Altai, Khakassia, and some of areas I made mention above). --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:12, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

India
While looking at Indian politics for annother TL I came across the fact that the Indian Comunist Party (Marxist) has long been the third or fourth major player in Indian politics. I was wondering that in light of the reformation they might stand a better chance at taking power. In 1991 they came fourth in the elections but at the time India was suffering an economic crisis but I was wondering if the example Soviet Communism without Tolatitarianism might swing votes in favour of them and allow them to take power leading to a much closer relationship with the USSR at least as strong as that between India and Russia today. Otherwise I find it unlikely that the relationship would be anywhere close enough for them to conduct military exercises (GOASIE). Thoughts plz?Vegas adict 18:44, April 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well from what I understand, India had a pro-Soviet feel during the Cold War. I can't really see how India would move further away from the Soviet Union in TTL, especially if Pakistan intervenes in Afghanistan. But in the long run, I am not really an expert on Indian politics. But if you feel that the ICP may have a better chance in TTL, than I see no trouble with that at all. As long as it doesn't turn India into a single-party state. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 20:31, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

I could see them getting more votes, but them actually coming to power is unrealistic. Lordganon 23:09, April 30, 2011 (UTC)

Dividing the Ukraine


I have said it time and time again that I loath the idea of the Ukraine being divided up as part of TTL. But after hearing 2303 bring it up again and again, and after doing research on the matter, I think I have to accept the possibility that it may happen. But after doing more reading, I am finding out that the Ukraine was originally divided into two states. I don't want to get into details on history, but I think I am getting more open to the idea. However, I want any divide to be on my terms if anything. But knowing me, here are the main points I must have, or else I may explode:


 * The Crimea and Odessa are to be part of any pro-Moscow Ukrainian state. The Crimea is a given, but I also want Odessa because it would allow a physical connection between Pridnestrovie and Gagauzia with the remainder of the Soviet Union, and because my Ukrainian mentor is from Odessa.
 * The Chernobyl power pant and (if possible) all of the Kiev Oblast should be part of a pro-Moscow Ukraine. Though I am not completely set on this one (as I am with the one above), I would feel better if Chernobyl would remain a Soviet problem.

Here is a quicky map I made. The areas west of the red line were originally part of Austria-Hungary, while the areas west of the yellow line were originally part of Poland (pre-WWII border). The blue are is my proposed border, with the lighter blue being the furthest extent. The red areas are Pridnestrovie and Gagauzia (for reference). There are some other ideas I have in mind for this new nation. Maybe (like the Moldavians/Moldovans) they would move towards calling themselves Ruthenians, leaving the pro-Moscow easterners to preserve the name "Ukraine." Sorry for being so direct, but I need to go to bed now. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 01:14, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Only 1 remark - better will name not Ruthenia, but Galicia. Rusins (Ruthens) from Transcarpathia and Western Ukrainians - 2 different nations. ~2303

What would fly much better would be all Ukrainian-large-majority areas - there is a map showing this on wikipedia, and that data is reflected on political results maps as well - being in the state, and then sticking Chern~ onto Belarus. There is some support for the concept even in otl, so it makes sense, and these are roughly the boundaries thought of (except Chern~, of course) Though, it would get Ukraine and the other part would get something else, then. Crimea still separate, of course.

Namewise, I believe that there's a Ukrainian region that roughly goes with most of the "Pro-Moscow" Zone. Would do nicely for a name.

I just can't see areas with 65+ percent Ukrainians wanting to stick around.

Lordganon 04:40, May 3, 2011 (UTC)




 * Here is my proposed timeline for the division of the Ukraine. In OTL, the Ukraine stated they would not sign the New Union Treaty until studies were done on it. By October 1991, many eastern Ukrainians were now supporting the new union, with many westerners beginning to support the treaty. In late October, the Crimea declared their full support for the treaty, declaring that they would remain in the Union (despite what the remainder of the Ukraine would say). The populations of Odessa, Dnipropetrovsk, and Zaporizhia began to show support for the treaty. By the end of November 1991, practically all of Eastern Ukraine supported the treaty. The western oblasts (such as Lviv) continued to hate the idea, while Kiev seemed to be divided on the issue, but still supportive for independence. In early December, Kiev breaks out into riots by pro-Moscow supporters and pro-Independence supporters. On December 13, pro-Independent politicians would meet in Lviv. Within a few days, the group declare the independence of the Ukraine, with the provisional capital in Lviv. After protests increase in Kiev, the "legitimate" government of the Ukraine evacuate to Odessa. Gorbachev orders troops into Kiev to bring the city into peace. On December 26, 1991, the Odessa government signs the new Union Treaty, declaring "all" the Ukraine to be part of the USSR. The Lviv government does not recognize this, and looks to its neighbors for recognition. Despite have some alliance in Poland and Czechoslovakia, no government recognizes the independence of "West Ukraine." By January 1992, the Lviv government had strong following in the five westernmost oblasts, with semi-support from all the northern oblasts. Leonid Kravchuk is elected as the provisional president of WU. By February 1992, Gorbachev made a visit to Kiev in hopes to end the violence. The eleven westernmost oblasts showed (including Kiev) declared full support for the Lviv government, with the remainder of the oblasts either declared support for the Odessa government or strong dislike of the Lviv government. With war breaking out in Pridnestrovie and Gagauzia, Gorbachev moved to bring peace in the Ukraine before it too broke out into war. The USSR offered to recognize the Lviv government as independent, on the conditions that the Odessa government be recognized by Lviv (and vise versa). By June 1992, the Lviv government was recognized as independent. Despite the Kiev Oblast showing support for the new government, the northernmost raions were transferred to the Odessa-supporting Chernihiv Oblast. The Lviv government shows no discontent for this, as the regions in question contained the Chernobyl power plant, which the Lviv government would be happy to let go of. By August 1992, the Lviv government adopted a new constitution. The people voted in favor of remaining the nation from "West Ukraine" to the "[Federal] Republic of Galicia" ([Федеративна] Республіка Галичина). Despite having Kiev for themselves, the government remains in Lviv, with Kiev becoming a major economic center. The Odessa government also adopts a new constitution, declaring it the "Ukrainian Republic" (Українська Республіка/Украинская Республика), recognizing both Ukrainian and Russia as official languages. Much like Latvia and Lithuania, Galicia would not sign the Neutral Bloc treaty, but would support it. As for whether it would be a part of the EU, maybe not now, but membership is on their agenda.


 * I based the map for the divide on the voting regions of the 1994 elections, but I also added the Cherkasy Oblast because they voted communist in the 1999 elections. --NuclearVacuum (Talk) 18:15, May 3, 2011 (UTC)