Talk:1983: Doomsday

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GENERAL DISCUSSION
The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve artiCle proposals.

Embassies and Religion
I'm exhausted right now, so please excuse any spelling and/or grammar errors. Are there embassies in the 1983 Doomsday? My next question is; what exactly is going on with religion? The major sites of Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Buddhism have been destroyed. I can really only speak for the Eastern Orthodox Church for examples; but how exactly did the world restore the Patriarchs, Popes, Lamas, etc. I suppose an emergency synod could be called amongst any surviving Bishops, or even priests. Though how many Bishops, who they would pick, and at what time this historic Synod would be in I have no idea. As for everyone else; ideas anyone? I also realized that areas like Australia and New Zealand that have a huge Greek population might actually save Orthodoxy. I don't know where the seat of the Patriarch would be. Mr.Xeight 04:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You touched a large issue Xeight:)...Embassies I'd guess still exist somehow, at least in the capitals not nuked. But I do not think they fare better then any other institutions after nuclear fallout, famine and diseases. Not sure if many can manage to evac their embassadors or recall them. In General I think the diplomatic network will have to be rebuilt from the ground. And many new nations emerging will have had further consequences in the years 1983 to mid-90ties at least. We already have a lot of diplomatic elements in the TL... maybe the worldwide WCRB bases may be recognized as sth. like diplomatic corpse bases as in many regions they might be the only reliable more or less neutral institution. I propose the WCRB Platforms of Diplomacy (1983: Doomsday) or sth. similar serving as regional neutral contact bases and diplomatic missions as a worldwide infrastructure of embassies and consulates will be hard to maintain for most nations. A League of Nations Resolution might be legitimating this.--93.212.13.3 07:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, even without heads, these religions aren't just going to disappear. Islam is still around, obviously, as we've mentioned several Muslim states (Indonesia for example). Catholicism might survive in the Celtic Union, or at least the Irish part. Eventually the world religions would reorganise, get popes and Lamas, etc. Similarly for embassies. Say we have an Australian Embassy in Dublin. Obviouly they can't contact their government or represent a government they can't assure the existance of, so either the ambassadors would die of cancer, starvation, etc or integrate into society. But eventually embassadies would reorganise, though I think that each country would send ambassadors rather than just have the WRCB bases. DarthEinstein 12:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A bigger question might be: what effects did the Doomsday event have on theology and religious thought? A lot of changes no doubt happened as a response to it.  Benkarnell

Post WW II in Europe the percentages of religious people plummeted; we can all only imagine how much more it's gone down here. Of course people could be drawn closer to religion after such shocking events, my guess is that Xi'Reney might have to decide on if Atheism in 1983DD either sky-rocketed or is less than in our world. Mr.Xeight 13:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would depend on the country, ie how much it was hit, how important religion was before Doomsday, etc. DarthEinstein 13:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * i think Catholic church elect a independent Pope by South America where people is live and almost of them are catholict, add of catholicnot nuclear attack to south america like a god bendition, how care about 2 million of catholic in Irelan when we have 130 millions in Brazil, same numbers in all latin america Roman Catholicism by country Archivo:Mapamundi católico (2005).png --Fero 15:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fero -- I think that's a bit away from the norm, though. I don't think that the Catholics there would just up and decide to elect a pope, especially since the rules of the Catholic Church state that all the cardinals have to gather to elect a new pope.  And do we know where JPII was at that time?  Otherwise, you've got an Anti-Pope for South America. --Louisiannan 16:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Wikipedia, John Paul II travelled a lot, and in 1983, the last place he visited was Austria, from Sept 10 to 13. I think its likely that he was in Europe at the time of Doomsday. See Pope John Paul II. DarthEinstein 16:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd sort of like expect an epic scale schism resulting from the lack of communication possibilities immediately post-DD, with self-proclaimed popes arising all over the world. Guess the only place where a pope would actually be able to gather a substantial following would indeed be South America. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 16:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There may be some anti-popes, but in the long run the church would be reunited under a pope chosen by the cardinals. The Roman Catholic church does have procedures in place in case contact is lost with Rome (for example 3 bishops can create other bishops thus allowing for more priests).  I would give it a year or two and then someone is going to call a conclave to choose a new pope, that is assuming that John Paul II is actually dead.  I also could see a "New Rome" being set up in South America because of its Catholic population and being missed by Doomsday.  Mitro 17:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * i was choise Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Brasília to a new vatican city base and her Leadership


 * Archbishops of Brasília (Roman rite)
 * Archbishop João Bráz de Aviz (2004.01.28 – present)
 * Cardinal José Freire Falcão (1984.02.15 – 2004.01.28)
 * Archbishop José Newton de Almeida Baptista (1966.10.11 – 1984.02.15) like heavy popular new pope--Fero 17:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that if the South American (and Mexican and possibly Central American) cardinals were to elect a poe, he would be the de facto pontiff even if some Catholics elsewhere disapproved. The facts are that South America likely contains an overwhelming majority of the world's Catholics now.  If there was a Brasilian coclave in the late 80s or so, my bet would be that the rest of worldwide Catholicism has either accepted it, or else formed small splinter groups dedicated to the memory of Rome, saying that true Popes may only be elected there.  Probably the split was deep and painful - it actually reminds me of the Sunnis and Shi'ites.  But whatever the changes to Catholicism, they must have been profound.  The church is so deeply tied to that place - it is the Roman Catholic Church, after all, and that name is more than just a nice tradition.  It makes me think of the Jews after they lost Jerusalem, or the Greek Orthodox when they lost Constantinople.  Benkarnell
 * "the Jews after they lost Jerusalem, or the Greek Orthodox when they lost Constantinople", totally agree, and even more so, since Rome is now totally destroyed. Perhaps to keep the tradition alive they would make a city called New Rome (or Portuguese/Spanish equivalent) or else rename a city to New Rome. DarthEinstein 22:31, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't rule out the rest of the world's participation in the election of a new pope. 1/4 of Australia's population is Catholic.  Whether that would have a major impact on the selection I don't know but it is something to consider.  Also don't forget the prestige that goes with having the Holy Father in your country.  We may see a lot of South American nations falling over each other to get "New Rome." Mitro 01:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Australia might actually be the saviour for the Eastern Orthodox Church. Australasia has Archbishops, Bishops, and Priests (who could be invited because Doomsday has the habit of making drastic changes) from many of the Orthodox Churches. Now there is a small (and I stress that) group of Eastern Orthodox people in South America, Asia, Africa, and the survivors of Europe, though they would be so small they would most likely be Kenothronists, with the clergy and laity remembering the Patriarchs with honor. Of course with Greece taking mandateship over North Africa, great strides could be made in Africa, maybe in some missionaries making it into Sub-Saharan Africa. Mr.Xeight 17:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

i think somone like Micheal jackson would be viewed as a prophet and would attract a fallowing which would be viewed as a religion--Owen1983 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

#3
1983: Doomsday is now #3 on the editor's pick. Mitro 15:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hurrah! By the way, who picks it anyway? DarthEinstein 15:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong but I think it involves how often it is edited. Hence, editors choice.  Mitro 01:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Where were you? Where are you?
My own birth did not occur until almost exactly a year after Doomsday was averted in Our Timeline. It's safe to assume that my parents, in suburban Chicago, would not have survived to create me or anyone similar to me in This ATL. But some of you are older than I am. Where would you have been on Doomsday? Are you a likely survivor? Where are you living now? It's a fair thing to include in the TL, if you ask me, since we've already tapped so many rather average figures for major roles! Benkarnell 21:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Alas, I was also born after Doomsday and I am double unlucky because my parents lived in the city of Chicago. If they did avoid being turned into radioactive dust, my guess is there likelihood of survival is small.  Kind of depressing to think about, I'd rather they both survive unharmed and lead a group of bad ass refugees across cannibal infested Wisconsin until they set up a homestead in Upper Penninsula Michigan (which might have survived intact).  Mitro 21:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be in Utah, and would likely be a survivor, possibly a veteran of the Spokane War. I definitely wouldn't be a linguist, or do much else of what I've done in my life, that's for sure. Louisiannan 21:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I was not born to 1983, but my parents was (how tha fack i say that in englsih?)in a Romantic friendship in Buenos Aires, that mind they was not died, that is good. (time to diner, i back later)--Fero 01:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't born before Doomsday, so my likelihood of birth would be low. It's safe to say that I don't exist in the timeline, as both my parents were either in an American or Canadian major city. DarthEinstein 01:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

My whole family would be dead in southern Chicago :( Mr.Xeight 13:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

My family live in rural Lincolnshire so I don't think my parents would have been killed. Unfotunately my parents hadn't met yet so I wouldn't exist. However I may have many "half-siblings". Bob 18:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No me around yet either. But since my parents live in the rare truly rural part of The Netherlands I guess they'd have a fair chance at survival. Whether they'd meet is a much different matter though. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I lived about half an hour drive from Montreal so I might have survived and being one of the

many refugees going to the Saguenay (part of my familly is from there).

I would have survived becuse my perants well my mum lived in the Algarve at the point of DD I live in Bury a small town in Mancunia--Owen1983 14:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Absence
Just a heads up to everyone: I'll be gone until the sixth of July. Farewell. DarthEinstein 04:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Bye! If it's a vacation, I hope you have fun. If it's job related-I hope the conferences aren't too boring :) Mr.Xeight 13:26, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and by the way I miscalculated, make that 13th of July. Farewell again! DarthEinstein 15:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What are you still doing here? You'll miss your flight - get going!  Benkarnell

The Best
What do you think are the best articles on this TL (note: don't name your creations or anything you made major contributions too)? Mitro 13:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head, I'm a big fan of the Netherlands Antilles. Benkarnell 15:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

the world in 2009
Climate change this has had an odvious effect on the world and is a major concern

Disease the rsate of a lot of cancers has increased

Europe with the braek up of SSR last year things are looking hopeful

Technology since DD all technology ceased but this restarted 9 years ago

Transportation this is back to pre doomday levels thanks to a huge effort to kickstart automotve production

Willdlife has suffered due to radiation but this is getting better

--Owen1983 16:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarification
User :86.156.70.49 is actually User:Mumby but my computer has been a tad funny of late. 86.156.70.49 16:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

2009
i think there would be major differences between are 2009 ant this ATLs 2009 for instence major world events aftere 1983 never ocured oor happened differently --Owen1983 19:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * First off please put topics under the right headings, this is the second time I had to do this for you. Second off, I don't think anyone doubts that the world would be a different place after a nuclear war in 1983.  What exactly are you getting at?  Mitro 19:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS
Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

French Foreign Legion (1983: Doomsday)
This article is very confusing. I'm not sure if even the nation's mentioned are a part of this TL. Still the article may be rewritten to better fit what info is known about France. Mitro 02:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Most particularly, I would like commentary on this map:

My idea is that with the recent arrival of a LoN envoy in Monaco, France might be more inclined to move toward setting up a new capital, etc, in cooperation with the G.I.E. that currently resides in the South Pacific. What say ye? --Louisiannan 17:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are the various shades for some nations stand for actually administered and claimed territory? Mitro 17:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Mitro, that's exactly it. The lighter color is the territory they claim to administer, gray territory is claimed by more than one, and the more rich color is actually held territory.  Louisiannan 22:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * wikipedia quote British Isles:There are about 136 permanently inhabited islands in the group, the largest two being Great Britain and Ireland.


 * Great Britain is to the east and covers 216,777 km2 (83,698 square miles), over half of the total landmass of the group.


 * Ireland is to the west and covers 84,406 km2 (32,589 square miles).

end of wikipedia quote and many people survival in that island and nation up in there, I think somebod, most that 1 million people must survival in the nuked France, not counting Monaco--Fero 18:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure that a lot more than 1 million people will survive in France. While the population centers of Paris, Lyon and Marseille were hit, that would still leave approximately 25-30 million French to survive and fight it out from 1983 to today.  I'm betting the population would be in the 10-15 million range after all's said and done. --Louisiannan 18:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 10-15 million seems a lot. First are we sure those are the only cities/military bases likely to be hit? Second how urban is France, would it be urbanized enough that the indirect effects of a nuclear war would lead to even more deaths?  Not trying to rain on your parade, just concerned about the number of survivors.  Mitro 23:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * France has 30 million communes for its 60 million inhabitants, right now -- and I don't think the number of communes has changed since 1983 -- just the population. While much of France is urbanized, I know that the big centralizing of cities and agriculture saw an uptick in the late 20th century. If we based the nuclear strikes on the initial map proposed by whomever it was, then I think that an initial survivorship of 20 million is acceptable -- it would definitely wane, and the current population may just be reaching into the 10-15 million range after dipping lower.  That's my take on it. Louisiannan 14:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I like the map, it's well made and such small survivor communities forming small states are exactly how I envision the northern hemisphere to look like. Only thing that bothers me is that the Basque state stops precisely at what used to be the Spanish border. I don't think these newly arisen states would care where the pre-Doomsday borders where much, is there a reasoning behind the fact that the Franco-Spanish border is retained? --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 18:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've subsequently changed that -- I just wasn't sure where was nuked in Spain before I drew up the map. I've made those adjustments at this point. --Louisiannan 19:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Alors What's the vote on the layout I've proposed for France by those who wish to say anything? --Louisiannan 17:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I pretty much accept it, my only concern is the suggested population levels, but I would like to see the articles you plan to write for this map first. Mitro 18:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as the population is the only sticking point, I have no problems writing the articles, I just don't want to put in huge efforts if the whole thing were only to end up rejected, you know? I'll write some up, then and see what y'all think. --Louisiannan 18:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I accept your detailed and well-thouhgt proposals for France and the map is logical! But i would like to know or read what you have in mind for things like international context with the Alpine Confed, Monaco, French Colonies, Pais del Oro, etc. !! --Xi&#39;Reney 21:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that the France pages can safely be graduated. Dan, I think that any new material you write on France can probably pass straight into QSS without going through the Proposal process, since your overall plan is accepted by everyone.  Benkarnell 16:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

This is more-or-less finished. Thoughts? I've put dovetails into the Alpine Confederation, Monaco and (soon) Auvergne. I look forward to your feedback. Louisiannan 18:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just read it, and it seems fine to me. DarthEinstein 19:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

This is more or less done, for now -- just updating to current events. Louisiannan

This is more or less done. Louisiannan 18:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Sports: International Olympic Committee (1983: Doomsday), Football/Soccer Clubs (1983: Doomsday), 2010 FIFA World Cup (1983: Doomsday)
With the World Cup articles somewhat popular, I've been thinking about other sports in the TL and came upon too barely formed ideas.

The first I found while scrolling through the News page. Apparently some editor suggested the first Olympic games since DD would happen in 2010 at Auckland. Now whether that it would take so long for that to happen I will leave to you, but I did create a International Olympic Committee (1983: Doomsday), which was at the time a red link on the news page.

Second is this article: Football/Soccer Clubs (1983: Doomsday). This was made by whoever made that incredibly implausible Mancunia nation, but I think it might still be salvaged. It could be a list of football/soccer clubs from across the world.

As for the 2010 World Cup, I guess the main question is would it be held in the Celtic Alliance and who is playing?Mitro 23:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Rhodesia (1983: Doomsday), Raleizia (1983: Doomsday), New Britannia (1983: Doomsday) and
How about a successor state to the UK, set up as a British homeland underground.
 * Underground? Underground from what?  The Celtic Alliance?  Mitro 20:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Literally underground? A semi-discussion started up at .  I'm not sure which is a higher priority for Mumby: an Anglo state in Africa or a UK survivors' state (since a UK survivors' state in Africa - at least, one on the scale that he wants - seems to be ixnayed).  Either way, I think that, , and  should be considered provisional pages/proposals for now.  Benkarnell 20:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have to agree. --Louisiannan 21:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree as well, also if it meant literally underground how would this technology come about? I mean the thought of moving 98% of the population by boat was mildly out there but this is bigger. Unless if you mean sort of underground bunkers around the country that somehow keep in contact, but even this is still a stretch to me, just my opinion though. --Gamb1993 21:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I added to South Africa articles into this discussion because they seem to be linked. Actually there were (are) plans to get the Royal Family out of Britain in case of a nuclear war. I have not read them myself, but I have seem vague mentions of them in other works. So the idea of some of the Royal Family surviving and making it to a new refuge is probably plausible. Still the large amount of people who apparently went with them seems highly implausible and seems eerily similar to SM Stirling's The Peshawar Lancers. No matter what all three of these articles need to be consolidated. I realize that to some it appears that African nations have a habit of changing their names but the current setup seems unlikely. Mitro 01:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added the actual South Africa page to this section, since Bob wrote it to harmonize with his other pages. Benkarnell
 * I never wrote the South Africa page.It was just there when I came across it.Bob 12:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I’m sorry but the UK article is completely implausible. Do you know how many years it would take to dig the tunnels and make them able to support human habitation when there wasn’t a NUCLEAR war? With the radiation poisoning, starvation, disease and brigands roaming the countryside the only idea the surviving British had was to dig underground bunkers? No this article should not be canon as it is. Mitro 14:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My research on the Bermuda article did establish that Prince Andrew likely survived Doomsday since he was serving in the Royal Navy at the time and was most likely somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere. He’d probably be the next King at that point.  Something to consider if we ever decide what to do with these articles.  Mitro 14:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Andrew could end up in Port Elizabeth, where a population of Anglo Africans has gathered from South Africa and Zimbabwe. I'v said for a long time that the idea of Rhodesia would work if it were scaled back.  But Bob has continued to put out ideas of millions of English persons surviving and doing just fine in a stable and organized nation somewhere... which is not going to happen.  Bob, consensus is pretty clear: we're willing to work with your ideas, but you need to adjust them so they fit with the rest of the project.   I'm personally growing a little imatient.  Benkarnell 18:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Almost forgot about these, but we really need to figure theses out. I think our first move should be to delete Ralezia. Its really not necessary. Anyone opposed? Mitro 23:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't ever like the idea of deleting anyone's work. At most tag it as a rejected proposal - if Bob is indeed unwillinng to make any further changes.

Alright I finally tried to start wiriting what I think is a plausible history for the region. The following includes info from all sources that talked about the region, plus some things I added:

While not directly attacked, the climate changes and other damage done to the Earth by Doomsday had a horrible effect on South Africa. Meanwhile the loss foreign trade caused the South African economy to collapses.

By 1984 as chaos grows throughout the country, large numbers of Afrikaners begin fleeing to the region around the Afrikaner-only town of Orania, Northern Cape. These refugees begin organizing into militias to secure control of the area using harsh forms of punishments to maintain order. Meanwhile a convoy of ships is organized for Europe to save as many people as they can from the Netherlands and Germany.

Despite martial law being declared in 1985 rioting runs rampant and the government is forced to abandon several cities to anarchy. As it becomes apparent that the white minority is shunting food and fuel rations to primarily whites, black South Africans explode into open rebellion. When guards abandon the Robben Island prison, members of the ANC rescue (August 17th) Nelson Mandela, but the joy is short-lived as Mandela dies in a bombing raid by the South African Air Force on a Pretorian black neighborhood.

In 1986, the few people evacuated from Britain by the RAF and Navy, gather around Port Elizabeth after the city was secured by remnants of the British military. The refugees found the new Anglo-African state of New Britain after promising elements of the ANC working with them that they would have equal representation in the new state. Prince Andrew is transported by the Royal Navy and is crowned King in Port Elizabeth. Meanwhile the last ship from Europe arrives bearing refugees for Orania.

By 1987 the last remnants of the South African government had ceased to exist and the state had degenerated into various warring factions and warlords. Orania, Griqualand, Deutsche Suid West Afrika (DSWA), Mapungubwe, Boputhatswana, the Orange Free State and KwaXhosa all declared independence. Pieter Botha flees to the newly established Republic of Orania where he is welcomed and eventually elevated to President in 1988, however he suffered a stroke a year later and was forced to step down.

The Zulus also declared independence, but almost immediately fell into civil war between the Zulus the Inkatha Freedom Party and the monarchists.

The late 1980s saw the alliance of Orania and the DSWA becoming a major power in the region and both expanding their territory at the expense of other warlords and factions in the area. However the elevation of Frederik Willem de Klerk to President of Orania ended the short-lived alliance as the new president attempted to end the near-genocidal policies he felt his nation was implementing on black Africans inside and outside of Orania. His actions only led to war in 1990 when Helmut Schmidt of DSWA ordered an invasion of disputed territory between the two nations. The war between the two states would continue on and off again throughout the 90s, until an official peace treaty was signed in 2000.

In 1991, chaos in India causes a large number of refugees from there to flee to South Africa, causing further strain on the war torn area. Many head for New Britain but others try other places in the area.

In 2006, a joint ANZC and SAC military force captures Cape Town to depose the horrifying warlord regime the ruled the city. The new RZA Provisional Government is set up but is merely able to secure a small region around Capetown with the support of a small joint SAC/ANZC garrison. Still the mission was the first multilateral peacekeeping mission since Doomsday. Gradually the RZA expands into the de facto lawless warlord-ruled territory.

In support of the SAC/ANZC invasion, New Britain launched an invasion into KwaXhosa and the Orange Free State. KwaXhosa fell quickly but the Orange Free State put up a stiff resistance against New Britain’s invasion.

The ANZC/SAC had an interesting effect on the region. By 2007 both sides in the Zulu civil war had declared a cease fire fearing they would be the next New Britain target once. In 2008 negotiations between Republic of Orania, Griqualand, the DSWA, Mapungubwe and Boputhatswana succeeded in creating the New Union of South Africa that united the nations. One of the first acts of its new Prime Minister, Angela Merkel, was to condemn New Britain’s invasion of KwaXhosa and the Orange Free State and demand that they return to their original borders. Fearing that they had united all of former South Africa against them, New Britain pulled its troops back from the Orange Free State but refused to leave KwaXhosa.

In 2009, New Britain proposed the “African Economic Community” in an effort to unite the economies of all the states in the region, but so far only the RZA has become a member.

What do yoiu huys, think? Feel free to edit it.Mitro 20:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I still wonder why Afrikaners are going to Germany and the netherlands in the first place. And why one of the most war-torn places in the world would be the chosen destination of so many refugees at different times.  As for specifics, I think the new take on Anglo-African expansion makes sense, though I think it would make sense for them to expand due north and bypass KwaXhosa, or at least only hold it temporarily.  I see KX, assuming it exists, as one of the more viable states in a fragmented South Africa.
 * Just to clarify a slight nuance in my idea of a Zulu civil war: in OTL, the Inkatha Freedom Party and the Zulu monarchy were allies. I just see their alliance falling apart in a post-DD world.  Benkarnell 16:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to make changes to it. I feel if we can make a group effort to come up with a general guideline about what happens in South Africa we can bring this proposal to a close finally.  Mitro 19:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Literature
Hold on-I'd like to keep this; as a fictional novel for the DD universe. With JK Rowling either a pile of ash or a 3-eyed cannibal, the world's young adults probably have no huge almost cultlike novel. I'd propose someone maybe from ANZC would write this novel, combining real facts of Britain with this fantastical idea. It gives some variety and a hint of realism for us to delve into fun things like books, or technology. Mr.Xeight 02:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Don’t be so quick to rule out Rowling. My research puts her possibly in Devon County in Southwest England in 1983, and the Celtic Alliance apparently controls that area according to the World Map.  It’s possible that she might have survived and went on to write a novel, though one that would be incredibly influenced by Doomsday.


 * Still I like your idea about fictional works in Doomsday, it really is a good way to get creative with the TL without just focusing on politics. I wonder whether some author might write an alternate history where Doomsday doesn’t happen, from our perspective a double-blind what if.  How would the people of Doomsday envision a world without World War III?  Mitro 13:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure they would be overly-optimistic to make themselves feel better. Maybe it would be a world where the US and NATO and the USSR and Warsaw Pact go into extreme isolation, sealing off the borders (which would present a problem with Berlin, there might need to be a war to save it). If it's written by someone in Australia the world might be filled with no toxin emmitting cars, and each house having a white picket fence and a garden. Of course where the conflict will fit in, I have no idea. As for the FotB novel we can call it "UnderBritain". Well that might be a working title :) Mr.Xeight 15:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of the alternate history novel, it could be written by the Australian alternate history author John Birmingham. He would most likely not be in any of the Australian cities nuked in 1983.  Mitro 15:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Would he still write his other two real-world novels and then our fictional ones? Five novels in his writing career doesn't sound too unrealistic to me. Not that I know much about the creative process of course. Mr.Xeight 15:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Wildlife
I've also been meaning to ask about technology and wildlife. How many years has our modern world's joys been set back? And what about animal-life throughout the world. Any survivors might actually flourish without humans to interfere. Another sort of thing that might might be; the radioactivity causes them to evolved. Any surviving dogs would no doubt interbreed causing a new species; maybe even breeding with wolves. Problems such as hairloss might result from radiation. Do we have anything on DD wildlife? Mr.Xeight 02:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen anything on DD wildlife, apart from a small thing I wrote on radioactivity affecting Newfoundland's cod fisheries. Mutation is likely; however be aware that most mutations are not beneficial for the organism. As for technology, I think that things like iPods wouldn't exist, but as far as I can tell cell phone technology is already on its way by 1983. DarthEinstein 13:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wildlife, I would compare to the wildlife in the exclusion zone around Chernobyl. Technology -- I think we'll be lucky to see 1980's technology before 2020. Louisiannan 21:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Confederation of Greece (1983: Doomsday)
With the Unity League being not-so-realistic I've thought of other plans for Greece. Greece would revert back to various city-states such as in the Pre-Roman times. Mr.Xeight 17:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * For most of the Aegean Islands I'd like to return to my previous idea of the Delian League. The nation would be a direct democracy with the capital at Ermoúpoli.
 * Corfu would go into isolation (maybe trading w/ Albania in the first few years) & become a self-sufficient Republic. Sicilian & Albanian immigrants mainly chose this island to flee to. A roman catholic church and mosque are there, but Eastern Orthodoxy is by far the leading religion.
 * Cyprus was saved by any sort of nuclear explosions, and is perfectly fine as of '09. The Greeks, Turks, British, & Americans have coexisted relatively fine now, and this was the first nation to give aid to the Greek governments.
 * In Crete we have the provisional Republic of Greece which is a continuation of pre 1983 Greece. Nothing much more to say about them.
 * The Dodecanese Islands became a republic. They have recently set up small colonies on the Turkish coast.
 * The Pelopónnisos did well and surprisingly began a Despotate, with a prominent Greek residing on the island setting up his own dynasty. They tend to try to stay out of other nations' affairs, with the exception of the Greek States.
 * Both the Delian League and Despotate of the Peloponnisos have pooled their efforts together to set up a small farming colony on the ruins of Old Constantinople, which they hope to eventually become an urban city again.
 * Agion Oros (Mount Athos) was saved by storms which blew the nuclear debris and clouds in the opposite direction from where they exist, and they became an entirely self-sufficient Theocracy, though they have allowed refugees to live around the base of the mountain, though they must not interact with the monks.
 * I'd also like to propose under the watchful eye of Cyprus, in the 1990s the nations formed a loose confederacy, which over time gradually tightened.


 * That's a major change to contributions of yours that are more-or-less accepted as canon. Are you sure?  Benkarnell 18:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It has been pointed out in both rude and polite ways it won't exactly work. I mean my dreams of mandates and such can still happen, it's just you'd have 5-6 governments all claiming protection over it. I've looked back at my ideas even I have to admit some of my ideas go off the deep-end. Mr.Xeight 18:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I must agree with Ben that this is a major revision, but I'm glad to see the direction you're taking, and I wouldn't be at all against the gradually tighenting confederation of Greek states, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some sort of unity with Cyprus. I think you've captured the feel of 1983: Doomsday's ATL quite well in this proposal.
 * Keep in mind, too that weather patterns are suggested to have changed, so it could be possible that the Sahara may be greening up, if people treat it right...and Greek colonies in the otherwise unclaimed land wouldn't be something I'd argue against. Louisiannan 18:24, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Greek colonies in the Sahara? What about the African countries claiming those areas, what happened to them?  Mitro 18:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Given the fact that many of them were barely surviving as is in the 1980s, and given the likelihood of the major centers of government (Cairo, Tunis, etc.) being extinguished in the nuclear exchanges, I don't know that this would be a problem. (IMHO the Middle East and North Africa have had the populated areas turned essentially into radioactive slag-heaps between the Jews and the Arabs duking (or should I say nuking) it out with no International community to stop them.) --Louisiannan 18:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * True, though we have only touched on that lightly. That may be another project coming down the pipe soon.  If I were Israel I would also target the Aswan Dam, think how much damage that would do when a nuclear bomb releases Lake Nasser and floods the Nile Valley. I wonder though if the lake would be large enough in whenever the Israeli-Arab war happens to cause significant damage?  (Birmingham’s “Without Warning” had a similar attack)  Mitro 18:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that Nasser's 132 km3 of water, full, I could see Israel nuking Cairo and other major hubs, then nuking the dam to wash it all out to sea. --Louisiannan 19:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Israel gained nukes in 1979 and have today and estimated 80 nuclear bombs. How many would they have in 1983?  [Edit] Never mind, found a source that puts their arsenal around 12-31 in 1984.  Mitro 19:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I think apart from the Peloponnesos, the Greek city States would be strong enough to combat Sicily. Some of the smaller republics as soon as the Italian problem is taken care of would happily honoring the soliders that gave their lives and then go back to regular life. Some nations (such as The Despotate of the Peloponnesos) if given a carrot at the end of stick in the form of mandates would love to invade Italy. Lastly others (Agion Oros) would never even dream of sending any sort of resources other than chaplains.

Colonies in the Sahara is a wonderful idea! Perfect enough to shut up everyone from the Imperialistic Peloponnesians who want land, the Holy Mountain who'd want converts, and everyone else who wants farms for survival. Which part of Western Africa were you thinking of, Bo?

I'd also like to propose I make pages for each of the city-states, as well as a page for he Confederation. Mr.Xeight 18:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, as long as you're sure... I think this sounds really cool. And a lot of the material on the UL fighting Sicily can be salvaged.  Do you have anything to report on what's going on in Turkey in this scenario?  Benkarnell 19:14, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Depending on the amount of information you create, I don't know that it will be worthwhile -- especially if they're all coming together eventually into New Greece. (I'm just trying to avoid the situation that was given us with Rhodesia-Raleizia-WhatEverTheNameChangedToNext, where it was three pages that essentially could've been ONE.  So, if you're going to have a great deal of information, I say, yes.  If you're going to have barely a page's worth of information (if you use lots of headers, etc.) I would say find a way to combine it down.)
 * 2) I was thinking anywhere from Libya to Sinai, really. Anywhere that could be colonized and supported, essentially.  Why not a recreation of Alexandria where a new library is being built under LoN auspices to gather the disparate knowledge post 1983DD? --Louisiannan 19:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

That is one of the best ideas I've heard since Ben's Suez idea, you truly are a 1983DD Visionary :). Taking the coast of Libya and Egypt with the capital of Alexandria for the new Egypt and Berenice for Libya, would you all mind that. Tunisia which would be wrestled from the Sicilians might be a possibility as well. Speaking of Ben's Suez Proposal, could we keep that as well? Mr.Xeight 19:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know about visionary -- but doing alt-hist stuff with Ill Bethisad for 10 years doesn't hurt! I haven't seen the Suez proposal -- link?  And as for the coasts, I do point out that there will be Berbers and such, and so the Sicilians/Greeks will have to contend with them for the land area, but I think that the Greeks may choose to offer the hand of friendship to the Berbers as a "join us and help us improve your lands and get rid of those mean old Sicilians!" kind of treatment, and get better behavior.  At the same time, if you want conflict, come in with the good ol' European, "Hey barbarian, you need civilization!  Have ours!"
 * And as any proposal, make sure you've done your research and get your ground legs first. But I don't see a problem, especially if you get the locals in cooperation (which, if you guarantee them quality water and good food and aren't oppressive (like I get the feel the Sicilians might be), you'll have no problems. Louisiannan 19:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ben's Suez Proposal was archived. It's under the subsection "More Lands for the Hungry UL". I'm definately going to extend a hand of friendsip to the natives and stir more anti-Italian bias, sort of to stir salt in the wounds. As for info, I'm going to have to lookup who was in charge in each of these places and most definately will the monks and missionaries of Agion Oros be setting up a missionary route startign with the natives of N Africa, and maybe even going as far to Sub-Sharan Africa. I also forgot to explain about Turkey. I thought everyone would conveniently forgot about the Peninsula; but a good writer never leaves loose-ends. I'm sure with the advent of their great cities of Constantinople and Ankara burnt to a crisp; the void of power might be taken by a faction much on par with today's Iran and Afghanistan. Conservatives who turned their backs on secularism and diplomacy with the outside world. They want a purely Islamic Fundamentalist, Fascist level IF. Whether they would go communist or capitalist is a problem; both the nations that doomed them were shining examples of such. I'm sure they would also be too busy fighting the Communist Kurds and Assyrian Avengers to notice the tiny colonies set up by the Dodecanese Republic or the joint Greco-Morean colony of New Constantinople which I'm sure would try to take the Asian half of the city located on the Turkish Penninsula.

I was wondering if someone could design a flag for me. I was thinking that the colors of our world's Hellenic Republic would be used, but instead of 9 stripes and a cross, the main part of the flag would be Saint Andrew's Cross (hidden message?). Much like the Confederate Flag had, I was envisioning a gold star in the center of the Cross, with 2 stars in each of the 4 arms of the Cross. This is optional; in between the stars I was thinking a word could be enscribed in Greek. Things like "Unity, Equality, Liberty, Piety" could be between each of the stars. However if makes the flag too busy-looking, kindly disregard any sort of text. Mr.Xeight 22:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still not convinced that there would be a strong presence near Constantinople. Also where is New Athens located?  Mitro 00:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

New Athens is located over the ruins of regular Athens. As for Constantinople, I'll let the grou vote on it. Mr.Xeight 01:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to believe that the survivors of Greece would waste money and resources on rebuilding a nuked city. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen eventually, but considering the scale of Doomsday there just has to be more pressing projects that rebuilding one destroyed, radiated city (or two if they are rebuilding Constantinople too).  Mitro 01:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I haven't given a time as to when the cities were rebuilt. Athens was rebuilt as a city for the politicans of the Confederacy to meet at and deo what every Senate does. I'm not saying either of these cities were rebuilt in 1984 with the help of magic, but the advent of the 2nd millennia CE might seem like a significant time to do it. Other than polticians and some archaeologists, there's not much other people. As for Constantinople; Thrace is considered good for farming, and the Moreans are hungry for land and the Greeks want to restore the Republic set it up. Once again it's not as if Constantinople is once again a huge metropolis of 2500 years of history; I'm sure the only people there are farmers and Morean representatives. All in all I envision New Athens and New Constantinople as very small cities, mostly being supported by the other city-states. Mr.Xeight 02:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would remove the new cities from their original foundations. Despite how quickly Hiroshima was rebuilt, the nukes of 1983 will be worse then 1945 and there will be significant health concerns.  Using the suburbs or a nearby small town/city as the core of a new metro would be the best.  Also even if Athens is built as a Washington DC, there will still be a significant support population to support the politicians and themselves so it will be rather large.  Mitro 02:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * just say reconstruction of a nuked city is not easy in 1983, see Milestone nuclear explosions

Flag
Is this what you had in mind? It's kind of neat looking, but there's nothing particularly Greek about it, if you know what I mean. Benkarnell 17:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Greek flag obviously must feature the Greek cross. Truth be told I am not sure why it should be different from the OTL one. But if you want it different, just choose one of the older designs. — Hellerick [[Image:Flag of Divnogorsk.svg|20px]] 08:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

No Hellerick, I was not going for the Byzantine Cross. Saint Andrew's cross was referencin (big surprise) St. Andrew, founder of the Eastern Orthodox Church. White and blue are already the colors of Greece, and gold was no stranger in the Byzantine Empire. The "official" successor state to the Hellenic Republic on Crete would already be using our world Greece's flag. Thanks Ben. I here by dub thee "Betsy Ross of the Confederation of Greece". I think we might need to change it to "Benny" though :) Mr.Xeight 15:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

If you didn't necessarily want the "Photo-Negative" CSA flag, you could always put the stars on the white fields in clusters of three... Louisiannan 16:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure the Confederate States of America won't mind. Besides the creator of the flag, Venedithiktos Karnellos might have admired the Confederacy :) Mr.Xeight 16:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Is Venedithiktos really the Greek form of Benjamin? What a mouthful!  Anyway, although Cypus seems to be up in the air, I move that Greece be graduated.  Benkarnell 16:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The Mandates
I know I was given the go ahead for LoN sanctioned Greek mandates on North Africa; but how far do they extend? I'm not dreaming for mandates that extend from the Suez, across Libya, onto Barbary, and into Morrocco (one "R"?), but maybe only Egypt and the area around the Pentapolis. I'd also wonder if they're flags would be Greek inspired. Mr.Xeight 22:17, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I've designed flags for the two nations. The first is of Egypt. The top red stripe of the flag was replaced by the bright blue of the new Saltire. Next I changed the Eagle; his wing feathers are the same blue, as well as the left and right stripes of the crest on his chest. The middle stripe is the same color gold the eagle is drawn from. The scroll the eagle is holding no longer says "The Arab Republic of Egypt" instead I've changed it to "The Kingdom of Egypt" (I'll explain that, but I doubt anyone will read this). As for the Libyan flag, I decided to use the Flag from the Kingdom of Libya, but I change the green stripe to blue. This sort of makes the flags look a bit dreary, maybe someone else has ideas? Maybe a different shade of blue, or avoiding blue altogether? Mr.Xeight 23:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Bo Arthur is right-unity between the different peoples in undeniably unrealistic. So I propose a new story... I was thinking that when Akrotiri and Dhekelia lost contact with England, they put the bases under martial law, and decided for the good of the island to take over the whole of Cyprus and do the same. Their plan was to make division between the native Greeks and non-native Turks even worse. However, with a 3-way war on the island; odds are the Greeks would win. So right around the late '80s I propose conscripts from the Dodecanese and Hellenic Republic (the Cretan exile government, not the official nation of Greece) help the Cypriots defeat the Turks and British once and for all. Any survivors of the war might find themselves on the former British bases, which could be turned into concentration camps and/or prisons. Mr.Xeight 18:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I had no real problems with an eventually unified Cyprus, after perhaps a period of fighting. With British forces there to act as heavily armed mediators, they really hold the balance of power and could (1) mediate the coflict, or (2) side with the Greeks.  The biggest problem with Cyprus now seems to be that it may have been a nuclear target.  Benkarnell 12:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I was added a new nuked map File:1983nuked2.PNG, with The Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia are two UK-administered areas on the island of Cyprus that comprise the Sovereign Base Areas military bases of the United Kingdom. The bases were retained by the UK following the granting of independence and the eventual transition of Cyprus from a crown colony to an independent sovereign state. The United Kingdom demanded and succeeded in continuing to occupy a portion of Cyprus in the form of military bases because of the strategic location of Cyprus in the Mediterranean Sea in pursuit of UK interests, nuked and Berlin too, if you like we can change her name to the classic File:1983Nukes.png --Fero 23:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

How many times do we have to tell you the British military bases in Cyprus were SPARED, they were not bombed, so let it go damnit! Stay away from my field of work, I don't want any of your opinions. Mr.Xeight 01:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In all fairness, are we positive about that? Are we sure Cyprus was not hit?  Mitro 02:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I warned the group in some thread that if Cyprus were to be bombed; that would blow all my work to hell. No one objected and since then that's how it will stay. Fero is just being a jackass because he knows I despise him. Maybe the Soviets didn't have enough time to bomb the city before they were bombed or something, either way; all my work will be ruined. Mr.Xeight 02:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the guidance systems of the nuke targeting Cyprus malfunctioned, landed in the Black Sea or something. Or something like that, I don't know how nukes work. DarthEinstein 02:35, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Thanks, Darth. Anyone mind if I add that to Cyprus' page? Mr.Xeight 03:05, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Darth: That would set a dangerous precedent. While it may be likely that there would be some malfunctions, we don't have the information to make a good educated guess about where that would be.  Furthermore it would allow people to carve out nations from areas that would logically have been nuked using the argument "Hey it malfunctioned too, why can't I have my way".  I think its best to assume Worst Case Scenario.
 * Mr.X: Correct me if I'm wrong but the necessity of Cyprus was important for the Unity League (which is obsolete), but not for the Confederation of Greece so the fate of Cyprus could change without affecting your current work. It might actually be probable that the bases were hit and though no one said anything before...well man I admit we can't get to every topic and I apologize for missing it if it happened after I became active.  I still think we should really look at whether Cyprus would be targeted and I would also ask that you stop with the personal attacks against Fero.  I'm not asking you to like him but we should all try to be civil.  Mitro 03:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How large and important are those Cyprus bases? I knew about them but have been assuming they were not targets - though I admit I know nothing about them other than they're there and they are British territory.  Benkarnell 12:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus is too small to withstand 2 military bases being bombed, no Greek, Turk, or Brit would survive. The bases I read are practicly empty, nothing has happened there since the Suez Crisis. They take up 3% of the island's area. Mr.Xeight 14:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, my point is that it had never occurred to me that those bases might have ben USSR or Warsaw Pact targets, but now on second thought it seems at least somewhat likely - they re rather in the middle of everything down there in Cyprus. My question is: were they really "practically" empty in 1983?  Were they nothing more than colonial-era holdovers that nobody really cared about, or were they really worth the Russians' while to launch missiles at?
 * Since your concept for the Greek survivors has moved beyond the idea of Greco-Turkish cooperation, I think that the Confederation idea could still work if Cyprus goes down. The Delians in the Aegean could be instrumental in evacuating Cypriot survivors in such a scenario.  Benkarnell 17:25, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Though I'm rather-upset at the proposal, if it would be a target for the USSR, then we may need to see. I was thinking maybe instead Turkish or Greek terrorists could simply bomb the bases instead. I think we need to delve in this more. Mr.Xeight 19:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My comment:


 * 1st: I also see the danger of a "malfunctioning ICBM" being used as a universal plot device... I have to admit I already did it to legitimate the survival of the Nimitz Battle Group a while ago...("apparently malfunctioning ICMS") and will rethink that.

I honestly do not believe the USSR wants to spare an ICBM on those minor bases (compared to so many strategic targets in Continental Europe. If I were Soviet Commander I would guess my Black Sea Fleet or an airborne division can take care of Cyprus at a later time, after the capitals of the NATO-allies Turkey and Greece been obliterated. I could even imagine Cyprus being intentionally NOT nuked to ahve some base of operation to secure the Eastern Mediterranean, Levante and Dardanel strait, access to the Black Sea. This would outweigh the strategical significance of the two bases. BTW, they do not have any sufficient port facilities for larger NATO battleships, so marine importance can not be so high. Open for all objections, but I would guess we can keep Cyprus not being nuked, keeping the general work of Mr.Xeight.--Xi&#39;Reney 21:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 2nd: Military tactics discussions, The, Sovereign Base Areas (SBA) of Akrotiri und Dekelia...together some 230sqkm... after some research saying these bases only having some SAR-helicopters, a few recon aircraft, one RAF airbase, and 1500 soldiers...today


 * i back, and okey 7000 military british society of Cyprus was not nuked, but can we agree they was attacked in some way for soviet forces in the Mediterranean region?, maybe hardly attacked--Fero 00:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Such as a naval attack? Or perhaps conventional bombing (ie not nukes)? Though, if its not nuked, I doubt the Soviets would send anything, what with imminent total destruction. Turkey might invade though. DarthEinstein 01:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking communists in the Levant could sail over under the USSR's permission. The Greeks, British, and Turks who aren't commmunist would defend it; though not working together. Yeah I have no problem with a seige or lesser bombings. Mr.Xeight 02:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

For sake of argument (I really am not held up about Cyprus) the Soviet Union would have thousands of nukes to use against NATO. Even factoring in all of the capitols and major cities, plus important military bases, you would still have a lot of ammo left for other targets. Mitro 12:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I was going over what info there is available on Cuba in the TL, and it is not much. Pretty much Santiago and Havana were hit and the Castro brothers are presumed dead. The military and remnants of the Communist government takes control and suggest that everyone should get off the island. Pretty much everything I just said comes straight from the, afterward there is mentions of Cuba being self-sufficient and still stable. My question to you is, what do you think happened to Cuba? Mitro 23:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would assume that at least some of the world leaders would have made it to the nuclear bunkers so even if the capital gets hit, there is the possibility of the leader surviving.--114.73.19.16 20:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While true, the info on the Castro bros comes from the Timeline itself and I am hesistant to change that. Mitro 12:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a major question about Cuba is Is it still communist? If so, then it would want to cooperate with Siberia. If not, though, it would want to get involved with the other Carribian countries. This is just general stuff, though, I don't know enough about Cuba to get into specifics. DarthEinstein 22:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if it's Communist, it will still work with its neighbors. The need to survive trumps ideology, I think, for both sides.  Benkarnell

I've added some content on the Cuba article and would like some feedback. Mitro 16:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

okey Spain was nuked, mabe heavly and we have Pais de Oro en nortwester Africa, but i think something survivol in older Spain, cab we create that page? if we have France, Ireland and South Italy, something must be in Iberian peninsule--Fero 00:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point, it looks like it wasn't any more heavily nuked than France. If anyone wants to write a proposal page for it that's fine.DarthEinstein 01:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't the fact that Pais del Oro is so close to Spain that if there are any survivor communities they would be a part of that nation? I mean on the world map Pais del Oro already claims/controls Spain.  Mitro 12:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless their are objections I think this article should be merged with Pais del Oro. Mitro 21:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I have bucked up my ideas a bit and have created this page. Rather than Rhodesia, Raleizia or New Britannia, New Britain is supposed to be the ethnically fair democracy from the beginning.
 * I’m a little concerned about the slash and burn approach you’ve taken to your old articles. This means that a lot of content already established throughout this shared universe will have to be changed, including stuff written for the Timeline and the News Page.  Mumby/Bob, consensus to me seems to says that most people are ok with your original idea for Rhodesia, as long as it was scaled back to make it more plausible.  Is rewriting the entire history from the beginning and renaming the article really the proper course?  Mitro 17:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You may be pleased with a fascistic racist state existing in Africa, but I don't. After I had read what I had written about Rhodesia, I was sickened. How could my mind spawn this hate? How dare I write about the systematic destruction of a race as if it is everyday. The British are already the only nation in the history of the planet to successfully carry out a genocide. I am not about to let it happen again. As an aside, how do you like the flag? Bob 18:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bob/Mumby: It is not a matter of being “pleased” about a fascist state. I assure you as a descendent of resistance fighters against Nazi occupation I have no love for genocidal dictatorships. This is a “fictional” universe in post-apocalyptic setting.  A nuclear war on this scale will lead people in most targeted nation to do at best morally questionable and at worst downright horrifying things just to survive.  In this world we would see people resorts to all kinds of violence, even cannibalism, just to get enough food to hold off starvation.  There is going to be anarchy on an unprecedented scale as nations collapse because of the strain Doomsday has caused them both directly and indirectly.  Some nations will even abandon people in parts of their territory just because they don’t have enough to give to everyone (you can kind of assume that in the way  came out) and will do their best to keep them away (like the MSP).


 * I find your proposed article to be overly optimistic. South Africa would still be in the midst of apartheid and I don’t find that changing simply because of the arrival of some British refugees.  If anything the survivors of Britain are going to adopt a “British first” policy in an effort to survive.  Furthermore what about the native Africans, white and black alike?  In the midst of the worst catastrophe in human history are they just going to share their limited resources with thousands of refugees who just happened to decide to set up shop there?  According to the TL South Africa is already in anarchy shortly after Doomsday, so I don’t expect an organized response to their arrival.  How else would the British refugees take control if not by force?


 * Bob/Mumby, if you don’t want to write about genocide, then don’t put the British refugees in some former colony where they are a racial/ethnic/etc. minority. You mentioned St. Helena?  Why not put them there?  Mitro 19:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Please just call me Bob. The British at this point in time (in 1983) ere inviting people from all over the former Empire to come to Britain. That is what crated the ethnic melting pot Britain is today. In 1983, the British were condemning apartheid and racism in general. What makes you think that they would turn to the actions that they traditionally despise? Also I was thinking that they would still be inviting people from the Empire to come to New Britain resulting in an even greater ethnic mixing. I was also inspired by a news article that I was listening to on Radio 4 this morning. The British were thinking about evacuating the island if it came to nuclear war anyway. Why ever not South Africa, one of its most important white settler colonies. I also factored in various civil wars and the starvation, disease and radiation that the Africans would suffer before the British got there. That would put white people at roughly one third of the poulation which is not by anyones standards a small minority. Bob 19:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It’s really easy to do the right thing when a nuclear war is not happening. Any nation that attempts to invite large numbers of refugees and support them is going to suffer a huge strain on their resources.  You are having a nation of refugees who have settled in a land none of them are native too inviting other refugees to come live with them.  If I were in charge of feeding all of these refugees in a hostile country, the last thing I would do would be to call for more, it would be a logistical nightmare and people would die because of it.  Furthermore, I’m pretty sure I gave you my reason on why they would do a 180 on apartheid: simple desperation.  Their nation was just destroyed and most don’t know if they will even make it in their new land.  People are going to hoarde and this will breed hate on both sides.


 * You also did not address my point about the natives, why would they even allow this to happen peacefully? The country is already in turmoil and now they have armed refugees carving out a new nation in their sovereign territory.  People are going to be displaced to make room for these new arrivals and they won’t be happy about it especially since they are all foreigners, regardless of their past history.


 * As for important white colonies, why not Ireland? They are right next door and only Belfast got hit and since they are further west they won’t have a high rad count. Canada can also apply, at least the Atlantic provinces, and so can Australia/NZ who according to the TL already have Royal Navy ships that showed up to help there and are doing pretty well.   They are all good spots for the refugees, some even better then South Africa.  Also why does it have to be a former British colony?  If some South American nation is opening its doors wide and promises everyone a home and food, why would the British prefer a chaos-ridden former colony they apparently had a problem with the last few decades?


 * I do agree with you about the British plans to evacuate the island. In fact if you actually read my statements under the collection of South African proposals on this talk page you would see that I specifically said that.  I even had no problem at first with South Africa as the destination, until you began changing it to be overly optimistic.


 * One question: where did you come up with 1/3 of the population? South Africa white’s make up 1/10 of the population OTL.  How many British do you realistically think are going to make it to South Africa?  My best estimate puts it around 200,000 British refugees that could be taken over successfully, but that is optimistic. Mitro 19:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I shall answer easch of your questions in turn. My idea was that the at the time banned ANC invites the British to settle their refugees on the condition that they destroy every last remnant of apartheid. The British considers this and accepts.


 * Your question about resources and hoarding could be easily settled by rationing. This worked in Britain when we were clashing with the evil of Nazi Germany so why not now? There would of course be a black market but I'm sue the government would do everything they could do to stop it.


 * As for other important white colonies, if the British moved to Australia they would be part of the ANZC population. If they went to live in Ireland, they would become Celts. And why would they want to move to South America where Hugo Chavez would eave his arms in the air and claim that this is English imperialism forcing itself on the free nations of South America.


 * You also have to remember that New Britain doesn't take up all of South Africa. They control KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape and Free State. I judged that about half of the populations of these areas would die, mostly blacks before the British got there due to lack of regulation of food leading to the whites shunting enough to themselves to keep themselves alive whilst the blacks starve and die in their millions. When the British get there demographics have altered considerably and it takes years to reverse the damage the whites have done. Eventually population ratios even out at 30% white, 60% black and 10% Asian.


 * I hope this has answered all your questions. Adieu. Bob 20:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to believe that the ANC would invite in the same people who once ruled South Africa, or that the British would accept knowing there is much more peaceful areas they could settle. I would even wager that the blacks can overthrow the white government in this scenario without foreign help.  Even if they do accept British help, why would they name the nation New Britain?  If you are trying to make a state in where everyone is equal then why a name that furthers the assumption that white's are still in control?  Still I like how you now agree that there would be some violence with the arrival of the British.


 * Rationing might work, but comparing it to WWII is a weak argument since Britain's homeland wasn't nuked at the time. What limited resources that would be available in Britain and South Africa in this ATL would mean that even less British refugees would survive the trip then I originally estimated.  I would also seriously recalculate the demographics of your state as the percentages still seem to high for whites.  I do like how you used Prince Andrew as the new king though


 * Hugo Chavez, meanwhile, didn't get any serious political power in OTL until the late 90s. In 1983 he would only be a soldier and I doubt his complaints would matter to most of South America at the time.  Its not unheard of that stable nations will take in refugees during crisis.  Plus any South American nation will benefit from British knowledge and expertise.


 * Based on your comments you really want Britain to survive as a nation and not be absorbed into the population of another, which is fine. I still find that your current setup is too optimistic, but you do seem to be trying to improve it.  I would highly recommend finding these plans we both know exist and read them and see what a British evacuation of the island would entail.  Mitro 20:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mitro, it's not a matter of rationing, nor is it a matter of resettlement -- the changes you propose are very optimistic for this pessimistic ATL. And while you want Britain to survive in some form, I don't know that as it's proposed it would work. Louisiannan 21:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You mention creating a British State in South America. However all land in South America is accounted for. Where would a British State go?
 * I never said they would create a state in South America, only said they would go their as refugees and be accepted by the governments there. Mitro 21:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

China or Chinas
just to start The Population of China’s Provinces Compared with countries population. i am Fero good loock--201.255.54.35 06:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt there would be a united China, but a Third East Turkestan Republic is a possibility. Mitro 12:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way I mentioned this on some other page but I think that Tibet would grab the chance to form an independant state. DarthEinstein 13:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Before we get further into this I want to point out something that has bothered me from the beginning about this timeline. Why was China nuked in the first place? I know that relations between China and the Soviets were pretty bad in the 1980s, but I don't think it was so bad that they would nuke each other. It doesn't make any since to me. If the Russians are so freaked out about the ICBMs that (they think) are about to slam into there country, I doubt they would risk getting hit with more by attacking another nuclear power unprovoked.

Now I think I can accept it getting nuked but only if there is a really go explanation for this. Otherwise I think it would be more realistic to have China survive doomsday. Maybe not as a great power like OTL, but as unstable state barley heeled together. I know it might be a major change, but I can't see much sense in how its set up right now.--ShutUpNavi 21:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Call me crazy; but America could be looking out for itself in this situation. Nukings across the world could bring these 2 communist nations together; or at least in the paranoid minds the men who have the keys to the "eject nuke" button. I don't actually know the real name for said button, so don't laugh at me too hard :) Mr.Xeight 22:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * To be reasonable i think China was nuked by USA, not by URSS, that way should be in the timeline; a accept a new free tibet, or try to free; and i say China is a 1/5 of OTL world populaion today and in 1983 too, we must talk about them, time to take a desition, they are dead, live? in China, in the west, in the south, in the moon? --Fero 00:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In 1987, the US Department of Defense came up with projected paths that Soviet armed forces would use in case of World War III. Their maps not only showed invasions of Europe, the Middle East and Alaska, but also showed a Soviet invasion of China through Manchuria and Xinjiang.  My guess is the DoD analysts thought that the Sino-Soviet split was severe enough that if the USSR ever started WWIII they would attack the Chinese as well because they thought the Chinese might stab them in the back.  As a side note the guys who made the film Red Dawn thought so as well, and I do believe they had some retired generals help with the story, though not a great persuasive source IMO.  Just some stuff to add to the discussion.  Mitro 14:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Was it established the nukes dropped on China were American? Who's to say those nukes didn't say "Made in Moscow"? Mr.Xeight 19:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Mitro explained why the USSR was likely to attack China. They were getting on far worse with the Chinese than the US was, I believe.  MItro, why was the USSR thought to be planning attacks in the Middle East?  Do you know any likely targets?  That would certainly help us get started on that region - our work so far has been us sitting around going, "What?  Israel... Gulf War... Arafat... what?"  Benkarnell 21:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it was to get control of the oil there and deny it to the west. Here is the link where I found the info: http://techconex.com/tcblog/2008/04/05/mapping-world-war-iii-soviet-global-invasion-routes/ Mitro 14:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

What insired me to propose this was the site, or rather proposal of the Union situated in the Former American West. The only reason why I believe that Maine might survive as a functioning goverment, is that it is largely self-suffecient duw to low population, and any nulcear weapons that would fall upon it would be aimed at the Bath Iron Works Shipyard, or the area around Portland. To me, Augusta would probably not be a high-profile target for a Soviet nuke. Remenants of the Vermont and New Hampshire goverments, along with portions of Massachussetts and Canada would be under its juristiction. This would become a continuing crisis with the Canadian Remainder provinces, especially in areas formerlly controled by New Brunswick, Quebec, and Ontario. Lahbas 20:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would read the article because your current proposal conflicts with what has been established there.  Also I find it unlikely that there would be a “Greater Maine.” The indirect effects of the war would make only the northern areas of the state civilized and they would be too concerned with survival than establishing colonies as far away as Ontario.  Still the idea has merit; maybe you could call it the “Aroostook Republic.”  Mitro 20:12, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not mind any change of the name. If you want to call it that, fine. I only it called it the "Republic of Greater Maine because I couldn't think of anything better. Also, the only reason why tehir control would extend into former Canada is because those areas would have been cut off from the Canadian Remainder goverment immediately following Doomsday. Also, those states have not been reconsituted I believe, as stated in the article. Aroostook would also make a natural ally for the Republic of Sanguey. Acadia would have been the main zone of any diplomatic conflict, as elements of the former Maine National Guard, and any militia, would have entered the area before Canada could recover. The Republic also could extend into portions of Upstate New York, depending on how badly it is hit. Lahbas 20:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are expanding Maine/Aroostook to far. Post-Doomsday Northern Maine won't be in a condition to move its border toward New York, but maybe parts of NH could work.  The Canadian gov does though have some contact with the NB survivor communities and Nova Scotia is right there so I doubt there would be Aroostook territory there in that area.  IMO, a small nation centered on a few surviving communities is more plausible then the large expanding state you suggest.  I like the idea though and I did suggest something similar before but it got little interest, but I am interested in collaborating on an article.Mitro 20:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not so much that Aroostok is expanding, but rather remaining towns are joining either for aid, survival, or protection from the gangs that are mentioned to roam within Southern Former Quebec. Maine is the only area that would be able to give it with relative ease. Also, the large French-Canadian community in Maine, made larger after the war, would demand that aid be set outside of Maine-Proper into Canada. Later, Anglo-Canadians within these areas would probably wish to rejoin with Canada, while Franco-Canadians would wish to remain members of the Aroostok Republic. I now admit that New York is probably to far a reach, but surviving communities in Vermont and New Hampshire would likely join. Lahbas 20:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * True about mutual survival (and I'm glad your lessening the scope) but there is also the possibility that survivor communities in Vermont and NH would create their own "nations" separate of Aroostok. Still there is the possibility of the extreme northern parts of those states entering into some sort of union with Aroostock.  Mitro 01:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I can imagine Aroostook as a confederation based upon the American Constitution around the surviving communities in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Maybe after the first couple years, after having failed to establish communications with any successor government, except maybe Canada, they would hold a referendum on the establishment of some sort of confederation, or independence. Maine and New Hampshire would support it heavily, while Vermont would be a comfortable, though noticeably more narrow victory. In the case of expansion into Canada, Maine would reclaim the territory it had claims on in the early 19th Century, along with most of New Brunswick, parts of Nova Scotia, and virtually all of Quebec south of the St. Lawrence River. In 2006, referendums are held within the former Canadian regions on whether to rejoin Canada or not. The communities in Nova Scotia vote to join with the recently reestablished state of the same name, while most of the districts in East New Brunswick leave as well. Due to heavy immigration of Franco-Canadians, along with two decades within Aroostook, most of West New Brunswick stays in the union, to the chagrin of Canada, along with the districts in Quebec. Another noticeably shaky point was that those districts annexed into Maine were not allowed to participate in the referendum. However, Aroostook will be the closest thing to the former United States you are going to get. The Republican and Democratic Parties are still active, as are the local third parties. However, electoral votes are distributed by district, rather than state. If you tell me how to make a map of that region, I could better represent it than through words. More so were to find the map than how to make it, as I have some experience with Inkscape. Lahbas 21:45, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of the areas around the St. Lawrence are gang controlled and I don't see them holding votes to join Aroostook. If anything I could see Aroostook joining Canada for sake of survival.  Canada is larger with a better agriculture/industrial base, plus its connected to the outside world.  On another note, I wonder if the New England practice of "town meetings" might not have an effect on how the new nation is governed.  Mitro 15:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Those areas South of the St. Lawrence were rid of the gangs by what remained of the Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine National Guard. Also, French Canadians have become more important, having formed a significant chunk of the new electorate with the destruction of Portland and the area around Bath, even being declared a national language along with English. Because of this, Franco-Canadians are more drawn to Aroostook than the primarily English Canada. However, Anglo-Canadians will still wish to rejoin with Canada itself. For another matter, I would think that Aroostook would be in a better postion than the Canadian Remainder Provinces. A large part of the Maine fishing fleet would remain operational, much of the farmland would still be able to yield substainable results, and the relatively low population would ensure no food crisis would erupt before a working solution could be found. Canada would be in largely the same position, but would have the trouble of trying to communicate with all of its broken provinces, and transporting material from one to the next. Lahbas 20:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Coastal Maine (and coastal NE in general) would be too destablized for effective control. The effects of the war plus the refugees caused this.  Aroostock would logically lay across only the northern parts of Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont.  I'm also concerned about how easy the remants of the three states national guards are able to work together to defeat local gangs, especially since Canada can not and the Timeline has suggested that the National Guards fell apart across the US shortly after Doomsday.  Furthermoe even a small population doesn't mean there won't be food problems as fallout will effect this region as well. Also Canada never tried to reunite the whole nation, they are focussing only on the immediate Atlantic provinces (specifically Newfoundland and PEI) while leaving the rest of the country on their own, until they are gradually reabsorbed.  They would also be able to rely on the remnants of their fleet and any merchant ships in the area.  Mitro 21:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is what I believe would be the extent of Aroostook. I know the map is bad, but I could not find an SVG file for that region which I could edit, nor one with any details I could change. The dark green areas are in full control of the government, and there is no foreign dispute. The southern green region is the area that has not been fully reclaimed, due to nuclear destruction of the urban areas and military bases within that area. The light green region to the north is the area claimed by both Aroostook and Canada. Concerning the National Guard, I only have to assume that it did not disband as there was still a functioning government within Maine proper. About 2,000 Guardsmen, taking those out who would likely have died in the nuclear attack, would form the main Army. Likely, at least half would be used to train militia from the surviving civilians, while the rest kept out the gangs from Quebec. They may also pursue them into Quebec, allying with surviving towns to drive the gangs out of the area. Another good note is that we could have the Bush family move back to the former Continental United States, though their summer home in Kennebunkport would now be ashes. Also, in terms of the fishing fleet, Maine no longer is a major in the fishing industry, but those fishing fleets operating out of Gloscester and the New England area in general, along with some maybe out of Nova Scotia, might head for Maine, based on the idea that it was “safe” territory. That way, Aroostook would have a nice fishing industry based out of Western Maine, while helping with any food shortages that might occur.Lahbas 03:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Maine’s territory is still too large. You mentioned the probability of nuclear strikes on Portland and the Bath Iron Works and looking at both places I find that likely.  The strikes are going to cause refugees from around those areas to head north along the Maine coast destabilizing the region and make it difficult for anyone to control.  Furthermore I don’t know how likely it is for Augusta to remain stable, it appears to large to remain peaceful when the supplies run out.  I also think the fishermen of Nova Scotia are more likely to head for their own country’s waters since both PEI and Newfoundland made it out alright.  As for the Bush family, well I’m not sure how many of the others would survive, but I doubt H.W. would give up civilized and world power class ANZC for a third world survivor country on the radiated continent of North America.  Still I think we really do have a good foundation for an article, though I would like to hear other’s opinions on this, where is everyone?  Mitro 12:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, you know, just popping around to Lla Dafern for a pint of Jovian ale, that sort of thing. Watch out for that Helvetian mince-loaf, mind.  But speaking of Aroostook, I agree, it's too big.  The only reason I feel comfortable imagining Utah so big is the already strong control that the LDS Church has on the region.  I'm not being critical, mind, I'm just saying that the LDS church is very regimented, very organized, and has means of communication between the different levels of organization that Aroostook and others would NOT have.  Moreover, there's a certain level of adherence among the members of the church that would allow Utah to be as big as it was without descending into utter anarchy.
 * I might accept the size of Aroostook as it is NOW, but that would be something that would've had to grow into. Louisiannan 14:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I overestimated the distance between Augusta and the Portland-Bath Nuclear wasteland. For Augusta, refugees would become a problem, but not a serious one. Most people would be killed in the initial blasts, while others would die of radiation poisoning while attempting to get out. The main refugees would come from outlying towns close to the blast area. Augusta would likely be abandoned due to its proximity to the blasts. At the same time, there is a chance it might not be. If there is a necessity for its abandonment, the capitol could move to Bangor. It might move there in due time anyway, due to its central location, and being nearer the undamaged part of the state. I have trouble thinking of the entire coast being choked up with refugees. Rather, I think they would go inland. Even if the coast is in trouble, I would imagine the area from Eastport to Bar Harbor would be fine, or at least could house the beginnings of the reborn fishing industry. Also, how far would the EMP reach over Maine? Maine actually has a nice electronics industry going, and could easily replace a good piece of its lost tech, unless it was hit by those waves or the nuke itself. On another note, I do not believe that the nation is that big any more, that is actually rather small, especially considering my original estimations. What would you see as the extension of Aroostook? Lahbas 21:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The effects of the two nuclear strikes, the resulting radiation, the lack of food and clean water, the spreading of disease will all make life in the urban zones of Maine unbearable. Most major cities (and you don't need millions of people to be a major city in this case, its all relative) will be abandoned as refugees find places to feed themselves and their families.  This will not be a peaceful, organized march into rural Maine as people will fight to get what food, medicine and shelter they can.  With the US dead and Maine cut off from contact with the rest of the world, there is no one to send humanitarian supplies to help out.  This violence, coupled with starvation and disease, will means lots of people die.  Any survivors along the Maine coast, where most of the population seems to be congregated, will be only the most successful bands of hard cases who survived after adopting a policy of killing (and maybe even eating) any extra mouths to feed.  It may be possible for some of the state government to reform in the lightly populated area known as Aroostook and maybe even gather together what is left of the national guard (except for those units who went rogue to provide for themselves and their families).  It would be slow going for them for a while and I doubt they would be all that interested in pouring resources into electronics when their very survival could be at stake (when did Maine's electronics industry get up and running, was it before or after 1983?).  Eventually contact could be made with other isolated Maine communities and survivor communities in NH and Vermont and a confederation could come into being, but its implausible to think that all Maine would pull through relatively intact despite being hit by two nuclear weapons.  Thus I would generally limit my extent of Maine to Aroostook county at first and eventually expand down Central Maine as contact is made.
 * We have been discussing this for a while, how about we create the article and try to work in some of the things we discussed that we do agree on and take it from there? We will start with Year 1 and just work slowly from that point.  Mitro 21:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Philippines (1983: Doomsday) and List of Presidents of Republic of the Philippines (1983 Doomsday)
Considering how little is mentioned of South East Asia, apart from Indonesia, it's interesting to see how the Philippines fares in this timeline. It is largely spared from direct nuclear attacks, although being an ally of the United States. The exceptions were the US-controlled Clark Air Base,Subic Port, and Camp John Hay, all north of Manila. The fallout becomes the main crisis in the years ahead; until 1996, New Baguio and Cebu become the center of most of the government. "Metro Manila" itself is forced to become a planned city to compensate the refugees and the existing chaos; in time becoming Manila-NCR. Mind that it's still a work in progress.

I'd like to propose:


 * 1) Because of climate changes the Sahara is beginning to flower. See  for more about the changes anticipated.
 * 2) The Toshka Lakes have formed because of the rain and are creating a river toward the sea to rival the Nile.
 * 3) The Oases of Egypt are spreading, and a surviving Egyptian culture is centered around the Kharga Oasis, at least for the time being.

Louisiannan 20:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

An Egyptian Interism Government centered on the Kharga Oasis you say.... Would this government continue the ultra-Arab, PRO-Muslim Republic, would they be more of a rag-tag government trying to piece back their civilization, or something else? Another thing to ponder is exactly how would this government react to the Greeks on the coast? Would they be openly-hostile, a strictly business-survival relationship, or would they try to be friendly? Mr.Xeight 03:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In my mind there would be a faction that is ultra-Arab, pro-muslim -- but the overarching survivor groups would be more concerned about survival at this point, and when the extremists get uppity there's probably political reprisals and arrests to get them out of reach of the general population so they don't cause trouble. That's my thoughts. And I would imagine that at this point the Greeks are the least of their worries. Louisiannan 14:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Middle East
I'd actually propose that instead of the Middle East getting nuked by East or West, I'd suggest that they nuked themselves into oblivion, so that most of the Levant is a slag-heap.

I'd like to say that as far as Libya and Tunisia is concerned they're "countries that time forgot."

And Mr. Xeight and I are working up Egypt as I type this. Louisiannan 21:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Specifically, who nuked whom? Israel was the only Middle Eastern country to actually have nuclear weapons, and it's safe to assume they attacked somebody.  Iran and Iraq certainly had chemical WMDs and were busily using them against one another, and possibly their neighbors.  I agree that a regional plan is probably needed for the Mideast, as opposed to our normal country-by-country process.  Benkarnell 15:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, here’s what I had in mind for what I wrote on my Middle East pages.

With most of Turkey blown up, the Kurds in the southeast manage to establish an independent Kurdistan without much resistance. Wanting to reunite with the rest of the Kurdish populated areas they join in the Iran-Iraq war (which in this timeline is still called the gulf war) on Iran’s side. Although reluctant because of its own Kurdish population, Iran decides to help them in exchange for dropping its claims on Iranian Kurdistan. Iraq eventually collapses because of the now 2 front war, as well as lack of foreign support from the US and Soviet Union. Saddam becomes unpopular because of his use of Scorched Earth tactics in Iraq and is eventually overthrown by an extremist Shia dictator. Like OTL Iraq decides to invade and annex Kuwait, but with none to stop them they soon invade Saudi Arabia and capture the oil fields there. I haven’t worked out what happens from here, but I would imagine things would go south from here and that another war would soon break out.

But this was just my idea of what could happen. Fell free to change what ever you need to with it, because I won’t be working on these pages for awhile.--ShutUpNavi 22:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a good beginning, I think. Chemical weapons were probably used more indisriminately, right?  And what about that Assyria place?  What is that?  Benkarnell 22:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

If I may; I have another problem to add to this mix. We both have pages on Kurdistan and an Assyrian Republic. The problem; the areas they respectably claim are exactly the same. Plus, I don't the Shi'a dictator of Iraq would last long. Mr.Xeight 01:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I figured I would bring this up because Yugoslavia (or what became of it) is going to have a large impact on the countries left in Southern Europe. Being a leading member of the Non-Aligned Movement it’s unlikely to be nuked, but all of its blown up neighbors are sure to cause trouble. There are a lot of things that could have happened here. Instead of trying to map out what happens to it all at once, let’s start from the immediate effects of the disaster and work ourselves from there. I just wrote down what the likely effects of the fallout would be as well as the government’s response. Lets try to figure out what happens from here.--ShutUpNavi 16:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

WORLD MAP WORK IN PROGRESS
Alright, i started to work on a proposal for a new world map. As this will be more than just an overhaul but a complete new design this will take some time to have a final version (which means an actual version). A few things concerning this:


 * I would like to take this work in my hand to avoid week-long discussions and dozens of versions being edited from three different persons with different programs, different formats etc.
 * This does not mean I want to dictate anything!!! EACH AND EVERY objection, suggestion, creative idea will be talked about.
 * My ideas is to propose several ideas on designing the map (color key, several amrkings etc.) and let the group decide.

A question: For the time being my idea is to remove the current world map from at least the front page as is it is irritating and far from being actual to the canon.

If this idea is against anyone's feelings tell me.

or if all of you now think: 'Xi is just trying to keep up with the changes and trying to reinstate control over TL'...this is wrong. I just want to keep up 1983: Doomsday as all of you!!!

'''Please sort your remarks! so it is easier to find!! thx --Xi&#39;Reney 07:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)'''

General Opinion

 * Having worked in a similar environment for years, I know this is not a power-grab, but rather the work of a cartographer doing his best. Ill Bethisad has about 3 regular map-makers, but there are a number (Ben included) who make up maps now and again.--Louisiannan 22:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just started doing this myself yesterday! I guess I'll stop.  I'll let you do the work :-P  Benkarnell 13:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Content/information issues

 * Good idea! I too think this needs to be done. Be sure to include the proper territory of Canada and Saguenay. See Canada Doomsday.png and Saguenay-geo (DD1983).png DarthEinstein 22:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A major recommendation of mine is to only show actually administered territory and not claimed territory. I think showing claimed territory will give off the wrong impression of what the world is like.  For example the current world map shows Canada controlling all of its territory despite the fact its been limited (even before the changes I and Darth have been doing) to the few small provinces along its east coast.  Mitro 00:03, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Question: should the map depict territory only

or all of it? Or completely different? A definition consensus would be helpful! Because IMO depicting ONLY controlled territory would leave large parts in the nondescribed grey status and lead to irritation...so a fainter colouring, striped illustration if disputed (e.g. currently alaska) is what I would pledge for...--Xi&#39;Reney 08:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "under effective, functioning control"(administered)
 * 2) "internationally acknowledged" (sovereign territory) or
 * 3) "undisputed control"
 * But having administered and claimed territory the same color would make people think the nation survived better then how it really did, though I would be fine with different shades or stripes. Mitro 13:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also Alaska though isn't just disputed, its split in too. Mitro 13:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Visual/Design issues

 * In my opinion it should show claimed territory. There's nothing wrong with empty space, if you ask me, since it is a nuclear war timeline.  And empty space leaves more room for flags and things on the map.
 * AH.com uses a "universal color scheme" in which certain colors always go with certain countries. The version I began was using it, and it was helpful.  I used "US teal" for South American states, "Australia brown" for the ANZ, and "English pink" for the East Caribbean Federation.  The UCS also has a bright red for the USSR (Siberia), a dark red for Canada, a Portuguese green, Spanish olive, Dutch orange, different blues for France and Indonesia, a burgundy color for Austria/Alps, and a purple for Greece.  There's even a Celtic green for the CA.  I'm finding the color scheme helpful, especially in the Caribbean to distinguish between the different island groups.  Benkarnell 13:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * First do not paint all South America in the same color, there is 10 countries, not a only unite nation--Fero 23:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Cyprus Discussion moved upwards... !!! @Fero: could you please pay a bit more attention where you put in your discussions!
 * Ben... :P lol
 * colour scheme I will use for a guidance, thanks.!!

--Xi&#39;Reney 20:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - a suggested map
I'm really sorry that this is being done in such an obnoxious way. I was planning on uploading this only after you shared yours (XiReney's), as a way to share ideas and comments. But it's been almost a month since I made it, and with nothing really going on in DD at the moment I decided to share it now. Here are my main ideas for it:
 * OTL borders are white. This was a current map, but I tried to change it to reflect borders in 1983.  East Germany still loks kind of funny.  1983DD borders are black.  They show actual zones of control as much as possible, so there are many instances where countries claim much larger areas than this map shows.
 * I use special colors where appropriate - they don't necessarily indicate strong nations, only that a color is nessecary to distinguish a country from its neighbors. All other states are grey.
 * When a country is known to exist based on its presence on a list, I show the name and, where known, the flag, but not the borders. This is the case for the entire Middle East, Algeria, Somaliland, Angola, Afghanistan, and Japan.
 * I use colors to show partial control and disputes in a few places. The violet color of the Alpine Confederation extends south of the border, since it is occupying parts of northern Italy that it does not claim.  Peninsular Italy is striped with Alpine violet, Sicilian brown, and unoccupied pale green to show that both countries exercise some power in the area.  Central Sumatra is similarly striped with Aceh's grey and Indonesia's blue.
 * The Celts' influence has been growing in England, and "free Alaska" is increasingly active in the Yukon and British Columbia. This spreading influence is indicated with little dots.
 * The Nordic, South American, and ANZC asociated states are shown as independent nations, but they are colored the same to show their association. The key labels them "international blocs", which I hope explains their status.  For some ANZC states, there was not enough land area to clearly color them tan, so I underlined the country name instead.
 * I had to get creative in Africa. Rhodesia probably no longer exists, so that will have to change.  The "New Union of South Africa" more or less reflects the alliance described on the South Africa page.  Other countries I simply added based on guesswork; they are subjectto change and maybe should be removed.  I decided to show the Zulus split three ways betweensupporters of the New Union, supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party, and supporters of the monarchy, which at some point split with  the IFP.  A rump Orange Free State, presumably white-ruled, is listed somewhere.  I made up "KwaXhosa" comprising the Trans- and Ciskei regions, just because it seems logical.
 * I also pulled Cabinda out of thin air. It was fighting for independence in 1983, so that also felt right.
 * For many of the small states in W. Europe, I did not show flags because of space constraints.
 * Benkarnell 17:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the green blob around Taiwan is a mistake. I'll fix it later.
 * Nice map! I like how you just used the zones of control instead of claimed territory, this reflects the theme of the TL nicely.  A few comments/questions:


 * 1) I wonder if we should just drop the flags. There is just so many of them on the maps it looks crowded.
 * 2) Lakotah is technically a part of the NAU, though in all honesty I have yet to finish working out how that area turned out. Do you think it would make more sense to have them be independent?
 * 3) I think Taiwan might have been targeted during the war due to its close relation with the US.

Mitro 18:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll definitely get rid of the green blob for the next version. Like I said, I have no idea what it is or why it's there, and I didn't notice it until after the upload.
 * I kinda like the flags :-/. Let's see what others think.
 * I can color Lakota as an autonomous part of the NAU. Or just wait until we know for sure what it is exactly.
 * Almost forgot: two other nations I included without evidence, as it were, are Jordan and Sikkim. Jordan's not on any list, but there seems no reason for it not to exist.  And Sikkim was left off the India map, but IMO belongs there.  It had only been part of India for less than a decade, after all.  Benkarnell 18:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I like the map, I like the ZOC's, although the ones for France are a bit smaller than actual. Given that they're in flux, somewhat, I don't think that's a problem.  I'll also respond to Mitro.


 * 1) I like the flags, personally.  Something unique to this TL.
 * 2) I think Lakotah should be captured/absorbed/unified, but semi-autonomous to keep the locals happy, but prevent another war.
 * 3) Taiwan, yes, China, yes, Japan, yes, Koreas, yes.  I think there would have been a nuke at Vladivostok, among others, and I think that the surviving Japanese if they DIDN'T get hit would make a hurried grab of Sakhalin, since they already claimed it at that time, *here*.
 * 4) I think the whole of the Middle East will be glowing still by 2009, IMHO.


 * Louisiannan 18:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I Like it --Owen1983 15:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to ask this, but when exactly did the FSSR's borders become so different? The old maps show them claiming everything east of the Urals, even Mongolia; but now, the hold E. Siberia, Kamchatka, and tiny bits of Manchuria and Outer Mongolia. Mr.Xeight 16:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Map looks good. Friesland is too big though, on your map it stretches on into Groningen and East Frisia in Germany. Its territory however remains largely confined to the former province of Friesland. --Karsten&#160;vK (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

with a little alterations this would be good --Owen1983 16:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * @MrX8, the map shows zones of control, not claims. That area seemed likely to me to be Siberia's de facto extent.  It's 100% my own, though, and would be changed if Siberia's creator (who is it?) asked me to.

For the next version
I'll be starting work on a new version soon, taking in all those ideas. My changes: I disagree with Navi's change to Canada, coloring the "middle red" zone on the File:Canada Doomsday.png map. This world map shows regions actually under a country's control, which is why I colored in the dark red (claimed and controlled) and the light pink (controlled, not claimed). AIUI, the middle red areas have provincial governments set up and are under some sort of Canadian influence, but remain largely lawless - as evidenced by the ability of Saugenay (and possibly other independent states) to function right in the middle of them. If you like, Navi, those provinces could get red stripes or dots to show partial control. Benkarnell 15:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Slightly bigger French bits
 * 2) Slightly smaller Frisian bit
 * 3) Erase the inexplicable Taiwanese color
 * 4) Remove most country names from Middle East pending more info on the region
 * 5) Get rid of Iran's borders until they are known
 * 6) Add Egypt
 * 7) Soften the NAU/Lakota border to show their true relationship
 * 8) Change Rhodesia to New UK or New Britain.
 * 9) Get rid of that orange, since now the New Union is being re-imagined as encompassing all the fragments of the former South Africa.
 * 10) Show Cuba possessing Havana, since I believe the land has at least been re-occupied.
 * There seems to be a stray orange mark in the upper left hand corner of the file (off the map). You might want to erase that.  Mitro 15:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's also a stray green patch below South Africa. It will be removed in the next round of changes - Version 3.3, if I'm not mistaken.  The orange mark is actually  a template for making the stripe pattern indicating a territorial dispute.  It actually is there to help edit the file in MSPaint.  Benkarnell 16:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)