Talk:1983: Doomsday

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A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Somali Civil War
Its allready been established by me and some other writers that the Somali civil war still took place in this timeline and i'v started and article to detail it. I'd like some ideas on what happened in the war, I.E why it started and what involvement Puntland & Somaliland (The two most organised idependent regions) would have had in it. I'd also like to know how people think it would end out of the options in the poll.Vegas adict 21:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

How would the Somali Civil war end? LoN Intervention Somaliland/Puntland suporting tribes in the region and turning it into a place for wars between their puppet organisations. CAMC Intervention WAU Intervention Joint CAMC/WAU new Somali Federal Government It doesn't end.

The LoN is way too overextended. They are not going to get involved in this war. Also may I suggest another option: why not have the war still be ongoing? Mitro 13:27, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Chaos vs Order
I think that we've reached the tipping point in this timeline - meaning - I think that that we're at the cusp of things starting to get more ordered, with a full "restoration" by the end of 30-50 years' time.

With the LoN and the Southern Hemisphere helping to restore the north, it would seem to me that the various nations will be better able to establish and maintain order. We're not out of the woods, and things could still go wonky, but as far as I'm concerned, I think that we're hitting the point where we should see more restoration continuing, more centers of power exerting control over chaos.

It'll still take 50 years for peace and prosperity to be restored, but by and large, I think things should be on parity with here by 2060 at the latest. Louisiannan 17:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on that issue, my friend. We should at it to the WCRB Future Geopolitical Outlook page, which still needs some work done on it regarding the future of the USSR, SAC and the CANZ.HAD 17:50, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Borders of Utah and Sierra Nevada
There is dispute between Louis and Fx over the borders of Utah (a canon article) and Sierra Nevada (a proposal). I believe the jist of the argument can be found here. Mediation has been requested, so please review both articles and the discussion between the two editors and help them come to a resolution. I would also ask that Louis and Fx please leave a short summary of their position here as well. Mitro 16:58, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

First I would like to thank Mitro for setting this up and to reiterate what I have said already in that I am open to discussion. I have tried to lay out my arguments on the SNU discussion page, which I would suggest should be read as well as those on the Cascadia discussion page, where part of this discussion took place, as reference. This said, if I understand Louisianan's point accurately, its that some part of northeastern NV joined with UT at some point for some reason sometime in the post-war world. The problem is though there is nothing written in either UT or its history regarding this. I should note that if you enlarge and study the map of UT, it shows the inclusion of a small part of the state. Since a map in not necessarily canon without something written to support it, I took this to mean it was theoretical. I carefully did my research before writing my article on NV to ground it in reality and especially paid close attention to articles about the surrounding area. Understandably, since I could find nothing if anything, I set my boundaries for the eastern SNU by using the old state borders. Since our discussions began, Louisianan has now informed me of several other NV cities/towns which are part of UT which were not even referenced in his map. I am baffled and confused by the situation. How can one violate something not written? The only changes I can discern which would be made to accept my borders would be for a change to the UT and Cascadia maps. Suffice it to say I feel I have put forth a number of logical points supporting my thoughts and rationale in how I have written my article. I have gotten the distinct impression there is less of a desire to logically discuss the matter with me and more of a "because I told you so, you should do it" approach. I apologize for getting so lengthy is trying to lay out my thoughts.--Fxgentleman 01:34, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
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Proposal overload
We passed the 60+ proposal line. If you get the chance, please review some of the outstanding proposals and move to graduate them if you think they are ready. Mitro 01:29, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
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Miscellaneous discussion
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Airships?
This might be a bizarre and perhaps far-fetched idea, but I think airships might have some form of popularity in the post-DD world. Why? Well, from what I've gathered they're capable of carrying decent-sized loads of cargo or passengers, they're more energy-efficient than conventional aircraft, and they can cover more direct routes than ships. Of course, there are downsides; complexity of flying and landing is a significant factor and a problem if they are used for aid transportation to underdeveloped nations with barely-trained ground crews, and the fact they are slower than aircraft (though faster than ships) is another problem. Nonetheless, if they could be built in the early 20th century that means most nations with decent industrial economies should be capable of building airships and blimps; and being less fuel-thirsty and complex than airliners makes them fairly viable for exploration and transportation.

Of course I could just be having a flight of fancy (no pun intended). Am I on to something here, or is this just another bad idea to be ripped apart by the community like Empire of Greater Germania? Fegaxeyl 12:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well there are three main types of Airship, Two of them are easy and quick to make and a third that can carry far more passangers/cargo but takes longer to build and relies on a supply of Helium and Hydrogen. I think the first type (Non rigid airships) would have probabley made the quickest comeback as they are esentialy oversised hot air ballons with some motors mounted on a gondala these would posibly have been used for travel or reconisance in the early days after doomsday but would have fallen out of popularity later as they are un able to carry much weight. The second type (Semi rigid airships) would have also made a comeback quickly after DD as all that is required to build them is a basic metal industry, they have a rigid keel and can either by inflated like a hot air ballon or with Hydrogen/Helium, they would probabley still be used by nations without kerosene or Helium/Hydrogen or those with very little industry. The third type would be the most usefull, these fully rigid airships have a full frame and can carry lots of passangers and cargo but can take nearly two years to build. I think though Fegaxeyl that you are on to a very good idea here, Kerosene (Aviation Fuel) is hard to refine and Airships would provide a good alternative. I do think though that propeller driven aircraft would also have made a large comeback following doomsday as well.Vegas adict 13:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh no...doesn't this TL have enough AH cliches? :-) Mitro 14:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I on the other hand love the idea. Needless to say airships are going to be much more practical than jet aircraft in Virginia.

Yankovic270 14:26, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * We might have to many AH cliches but in a world where the infastructure for jet aircraft doesn't exist (Much) airships do make a logical and sensible choice as passanger and transport vehicles.Vegas adict 14:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of Airships and Piston engined aircraft experiencing a resurgence. Jets are expensive and are the mainstay of 1st world nations like the SAC, USSR and CANZ.HAD 15:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's cliche but it makes sense. Go ahead and write something up, whether a page of its own or a section of the Science-and-Technology page. Just keep them sensible and play up the affordability angle. The idea of ÜBER-airships would not fit this ATL. (Anyone ever play Red Alert II? ;)) Benkarnell 16:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with so-called "Über-airships" being implausible, but roughly 1920's era zeppelins would be well within the technology levels of the timeline. And they would be safe too, because after the post-Hindenburg modifications to its design the sister ship the Graf Zeppelin had a long and illustrious career.

Yankovic270 16:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

So Goddyear Blimp and (mini) Helium Hindenburgs as opposed to Kiriv Airships, right?HAD 16:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I believe helium blimps are more expensive to produce than a hydrogen airship, so a small survivor state stretched to the limit might actually be more interested in a hydrogen model. Hydrogen airships got a bad rep actually after Hindenburg. The fear over them was a little unfounded. Mitro 18:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hydrogen is easier to refine than Helium as wellVegas adict 19:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually had a dream last night that I was in the world of 1983DD and was piloting an airship. The airship, for whatever reason, had no floor, and I kept dropping stuff and worrying that my passengers would fall. I wasn't worried about myself, for some reason. Benkarnell 23:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to dream a better dream Ben, misquoting Les Miserables asides. But its a pretty cool mental image: Commonwealth Air Force F-18s alongside a zepplin, updated Lockheed Constellations (the best piston liner, in my opinion), sharing the skies with SAS 747s.HAD 17:33, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is a good idea, but they would most likley be expensive so nations should have very few.Baconton 23:45, May 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, having that dream was my signal to take a couple days off from work here. But I'm ready to get back in the swing of things again. I'm not an aviation expert, but intuitively it seems easier to build an airship from scratch than an airplane - a benefit for small, isolated communities cut off from their old sources of manufactured goods. And actually, it would be next to impossible to make new planes without bauxite. This map shows the score there. ANZ, South America, the Caribbean, the WAU, and Greece have decent access to bauxite among the world's major powers. The need for bauxite could help explain Siberia's push into Manchuria and the Uralian frontier. For the North American and Middle Eastern powers, airships might make better sense than new planes, for which aluminum is difficult to obtain.
 * Also, airships are one of the only AH cliches] we haven't incorporated yet ;). We may as well embrace them. Benkarnell 04:24, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Another 1983: DD mention
Towards the bottom of this page from tvropes.org - BrianD 05:07, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's very cool.--Vladivostok 06:04, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, yeah that was me. I also added to two other articles. Mitro 12:08, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

Kabylie
Is an article about a countrie wich gain independence from Algeria after it was given to Greece by The League of Nations, then a dictator modernized the small countrie.

VENEZUELA 23:35, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by me. Hoping it will detail the American refugees who fled to other parts of the world after Doomsday. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just do not have the time to give to this article. If anyone wishes to adopt it from me I would be cool with that. Mitro 16:54, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Baconton. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty empty. The idea's OK in theory, but I think we at least need to clarify the extent of the destruction in Crimea. Two missiles actually seems sort of light for such a strategically important region. Sevastopol was one of the main naval bases in the USSR. Overall I hope this is not the last Russian statelet to appear. We have so many in the US. Benkarnell 22:05, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the part of them colonizing parts of Turkey is pretty weak. There are too many minature empires in this TL already. Furthermore wouldn't the Turks have something to say about Crimean colonies? Mitro 14:40, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * We already know that blown-up Greece has taken pieces of Turkey, so it must be in awfully bad shape. It's actually very consistent if blown-up Crimea takes pieces as well. Benkarnell 19:14, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but I think Greece and Crimea's geography plays a role in that. Greece in many ways had a larger area of survivors to pull from. Crimea itself is relatively compact and even just two nukes can cause major damage and chaos to the small peninsula, preventing any future colonization unless it is part of some plan to flee to a better area.
 * I'm curious about how the Crimean Tatars are doing post-Doomsday. Mitro 19:33, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please edit my article.Baconton 23:49, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed "Lost colony" in the former South Carolina
Following up on the "discovery of two communities in the western part of the state by the WCRB, I have written an article to account for the lack of contact of those people with the larger community in the upstate. Since I have the explorers of from Piedmont "missing" them in 1991 (partly because they only went as far as the outskirts of Columbia on the Broad River), I postulate that they were largely "relocated," if not wiped out by what we called "Hurricane Hugo" in 1989. I call the "colony" the "Peedee Nation" in honor of the almost extent Pee Dee tribe of Native Americans that lived in the area. One of the "borders" of the nation was the Great Pee Dee River.

I need to fill in the details, but it is assumed that the residents in the area between blasts just settled down and lived along the rivers. Unfortunately, few of them recognized the signs of a hurricane bearing down on them. [SouthWriter]

Okay, I have done some work on the rise and fall of this doomed nation. It wasn't the bombs that got them -- It was something a lot bigger -- Hurricane "Hugo" -- and a lot smaller -- influenza carolina. Together these disasters killed more people than were killed in all of Columbia on Doomsday. For South Carolina, at least, Doomsday wasn't the worst thing that could happen! SouthWriter 18:34, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Missouri
A proposal about my home state of Missouri. --Jnjaycpa 05:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
I just made a proposal about the Republic of Georgia, a breakaway Georgia that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * You make vague mention of military bases in Georgia being hit. Can you be more specific? I think Batumi would be hit. Mitro 16:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

&
Me & Southwriter's proposals for the Dakotas. --GOPZACK 19:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduating North Dakota. Mitro 19:56, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the interest of full disclosure I want to add a small section to the North Dakota noting that Bismarck, Fargo and the southeast corner of the state is now a part of the . --GOPZACK 19:58, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Azokoatron. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 22:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any objections to graduation? --GOPZACK 20:01, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've taken over the article with SouthWriter. We've dropped the crap about making the grand "Republic of Florida". I have also acknowledged South Florida in the article. --GOPZACK 15:39, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia (U.S. State)
I put a little bit up for the summary article on my home state of Georgia. I clicked on what looked like a live link at the new article on the former Soviet country of Georgia and got a blank slate! So there you go.

I have some ideas for south Georgia, and I have to build up some of the story for Toccoa. And of course, there is the failed provisional government in Athens to which to link the article. SouthWriter 03:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

I thought you might like to know, that Jimmy Carter was not present in Georgia on DD. During my research I ran across articles which stated his sister, Ruth Carter Stapleton, had died on 9/26/1983 in Fayetteville, NC from cancer. According the articles, Carter had been by his sister's bedside during the two weeks leading up to her death. The WCRB report on the Southern US stated Fayetteville, NC was hit on DD. Of course this does not preclude the chance, as you said, the Secret Service got him out in time. Even so, they would have to get him to GA to establish a new government. Hope this helps. --Fxgentleman 16:50, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Azerbaijan (1983:Doomsday)
An article by me --Fedelede 02:08, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Article originally created due to how long the discussion on how the history of 1983: Doomsday will progress. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've started working on this article. Thoughts are appreciated. Mitro 16:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Brian is trying to revise the history of West Texas. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thoughts appreciated - this is still very much in progress. Some of the history touches more on the south Texas and north Texas states, and would eventually be moved if this is approved.--BrianD 23:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm done - pending any further reviews and revisions by the community. BrianD 19:33, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perry. Mitro 15:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Mitro, but Perry doesn't seem to know how this time line works. Even if he begins to put together an idea that goes along with canon, his grammar is not up to par. I suggested to him that he read it aloud after he wrote it, but I don't think it has helped. SouthWriter 05:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with SouthWriter, I'm not very good with grammar, but I think when all the grammar issues can be worked out, it will come out good. I understand the timeline.Perryz101 23:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * A part of me just doesn't think it is plausible to have another large state in the Midwest. Especially when we have 3 other large states (Virginia, Kentucky and Superior) all in the same general location. Mitro 12:43, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * So the cities just get trown to Kentucky and Superior?...With these cities still living they would try and reform some type of nation. I don't understand when you say large, do you mean by area-power- or what?Perryz101 17:43, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I feel that we have reached the limit of large, organized nation-states on the North American continent. Creating anymore would be optimistic in the extreme. I also think this article conflicts with the assumption that the are between Superior and Kentucky is a wasteland populated by small isolated towns and nomads. Mitro 16:53, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just rereading the article I'm araid I am going to drop my support for it. The best that Indiana can do IMO is mayube a few city-states in places like Lafayette or something. --GOPZACK 18:44, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

San Diego
Article created by WestVirginiaRebel, where he argues for survivors in the former southern California city. BrianD 01:35, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Does anyone think this article has merit? Should we graduate it, rework it or mark it obsolete? BrianD 15:26, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

The article it's self I have no trouble with but the whole idea of worshiping Lincoln as a deity I have trouble with. I don't see it catching on with 20% of the population. A fringe cult perhaps but not a major religion. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Lincoln the President but I just don't see a religion being formed around him. --GOPZACK 03:08, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

It's just because I realized that from what I got from church that God is a wise and incredibly loving enitity who knows how to be firm. That describes Abraham Lincoln to a T. Lincolnism is basically Christianity with a different face on God. If you ever read the bible you would know that the true face of God is never revealed. I stand by the new faith, as it is the quirk I gave it to make the country unique. And if a country could have a religion worshipping King Arthur, who may or may not have existed, then ol' Abe definitely deserves followers.

Yankovic270 03:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * This smacks of Russian Buddhists that another alt-history group toyed with once-upon-a-time, but they're just so out there - beyond the pale, really, that I don't know if Lincolnists or Arthurians could survive any better than Russian Buddhists did in the other alternate history. As much as you'd like to keep it because of a quirk, I don't know that people would give up their old religion for this new religion just because of Doomsday. I'm not averse to it, given a much stronger explanation - maybe that major religious leaders had visions, what-not - similar to the Jehovah's Witness or something. That would much better explain why it would take off so.


 * I'm more concerned, Yankovic, that you seem so ready to defy group consensus, something that is integral to the proper function of this and other shared timelines. I would hope you would reconsider. Louisiannan 05:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll chime in as the loyal opposition here: I think that strange things can happen to small groups living in isolation. I'm actually surprised there aren't more weird religious cults out there. I agree that a more sophisticated explanation for the origins this one is probably needed. Benkarnell 13:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Danke Schon Ben. I just need a prominent local religious leader to have a vision. I also need some one to write the vision. I'm not one who can write religous material.

Yankovic270 15:17, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for cults popping up after doomsday but not on such a large scale like in Lincoln. & by making Lincoln "god" wouldn't that piss a lot of Christians off who believe God sent down his son Jesus for a time but God himself other wise was never like you said "revealed". That could spark religious tension & such plus I doubt your leader Dave Heineman, a methodist, would drop that faith and become a "Lincolnist". --GOPZACK 19:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem per se with somebody there worshipping Abraham Lincoln as a deity. It's 20 percent of the population that I have a problem with. Personally, Lincolnism as a philosophy, that could be held by anyone of any religion or no religion is more realistic. In fact I could see this as some sort of humanist movement, their argument being no one knows if God exists or not, but everyone knows Lincoln did, and we know what he stood for; and that his principles are ones that everyone can follow and adopt, regardless of humanist or Lutheran or Catholic beliefs. This could still allow for the monuments to Abe Lincoln that Yank's established as being around the city of Lincoln. I would also take issue with Lincoln's hostilities towards PUSA Nebraska - how strange for peaceful people to be so bitter at Scottsbluff for taking their "territory".--BrianD 23:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I can live with the hostilies being removed, but I remain firm on the Lincolnists. I will not remove Lincolnism from my article. I want them to be an actual religion, not a philosophy. What's the largest percentage of people who could be Lincolnist? And I will not accept 5% or lower.

Yankovic270 02:07, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yankovic, you're always doing that! "I will not accept less than..."... this isn't an auction! Brian, I still think that having one's civilization destroyed might lead people to unexpected devotional and cultic practices. This month's National Geographic has an article on the growth of the cult of Santa Muerte in Mexico. Now, most images of people worshipping Santa Muerte simply look... creepy to most people, but it is a real phenomenon that has been expanding rapidly in Mexico as social and economic conditions have taken a turn for the worse. Think of how much more psychologically and spiritually damaging the nuclear war must have been - on everyone in the world, but on Americans especially. That really is a dimension of this ATL that I think we haven't explored enough. Worshipping Abe Lincoln? Hardly implausible, especially for a people craving some piece of the USA to hold on to. If you ask me, Lincolnism ought to be the tip of the iceberg. Benkarnell 03:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ben. I still don't quite get it, but you've helped me understand this a bit more. Maybe the nuclear war made Lincolnists forsake their former faith in God, and Lincolnism filled in the gap? (I wonder what effect this is having on the Protestant and Catholic churches there?). And, I also wonder if there is a (small) humanist/atheist contingent that adopted the Lincolnist principles w/o embracing him as a deity. BrianD 03:09, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the Catholic Church in Mexico has repeatedly condemned Santa Muerte, and according to the article, they've persuaded the Mexican government to revoke her status as a recognized religion. Probably Lincoln has similar tensions.
 * Just as a general thing: I really do think that we have sometimes ignored the psychological side of things. When I look at North America, I'd expect most people over 25 to show some symptoms of depression and PTSD, for example. And this would have serious effects felt throughout society. It might help explain why Americans have been so unwilling to "pick up the pieces", and why Uyghurs and Manchurian Chinese were so nonchalant about the rump Soviet government taking over. Benkarnell 03:29, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * There probably are tensions, but in reading the article it seems as if the government accepts the new religion. The depression/PTSD discussion is worth a thread of its own. BrianD 03:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I agree Brian, depression/PTSD must be discussed in greater depth. However in regards to this article I can not drop my objections without a sharp reduction in Lincolnism, the end of great hostilities with the NAU over territory. Both sides should meet and determine a border and end this "viscous argument" as its called. GOPZACK 15:44, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

I am willing to accept a reduction in Lincolnist ranks of 5%, but no more than that. As I said before I am perfectly fine with the hostilities being at least toned down to a minor dissagreement, if not completely eliminated.

Yankovic270 16:13, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * sigh*... If I may quote Ben "this isn't an auction!" 15% of the population is still too high Yank. This is a fringe religion that should be counted as a part of the "Unknown (14%)" area. GOPZACK 19:47, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am glad that someone gave a psycholgical reason for the religion of Lincolnism to exist. And Louis? Until now "group consensus" was that everyone was basically fine with Lincolnism. I don't know why it became an issue despite being given the green light from the community. By the way, Zack? The demoralizing effects of Doomsday are probbably strong enough to make people flock to the new religion.

Yankovic270 15:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't want to speak for Louis but I think he like me just missed the Licolnsim portion of the article. This seems to happen rather often as I've observed. As for flocking to a new religion I doubt they would make one up based on the worshiping of a former President. Some may but it would not be a major religion. --GOPZACK 20:46, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The idea of a Lincoln religion does not seem that crazy in light of the huge traumatic stress caused by Doomsday, but I also agree that 20% of the population adhering to it is going over the top. Most likely they are a small cult. Mitro 02:34, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree Mitro. --GOPZACK 19:45, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hey Yank, making it a philosphy doesn't necessarily mean it can't also be a religion. Look at Buddhism. Its nontheistic, Buddha was a guy who did awesome stuff and should be emulated, and the whole religion is based on achieving the things Buddha did. Buddha isn't a god. Altering Lincolnism to make it a similarly nontheistic religion would make it more realistic and possibly more acceptible.Oerwinde 07:33, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Oer. Its nice to see that someone gets wanat I was trying to get across in Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln is an American Buddha in this timeline. Does that answer the naysayers questions?

Yankovic270 20:31, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really. That still doesn't address why 20% of the population would follow it and as far as I can tell you have not altered the section on Lincolnism to conform with Oer's suggestion. Mitro 20:41, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like Oerwinde's suggestion: make Lincolnism philosophical, not deistic. I have to side with Mitro on the percentages. BrianD 20:48, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still agree with Mitro 20% is to high whether it be a philosophical or deistic. GOPZACK 23:45, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

WCRB Report on Transportation
A WCRB report on the situation of Transport infastructure across the world including details on AirshipsVegas adict 17:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

May I ask who marked this page obsolete, and for what purpose? Arstarpool 01:02, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

I believe it was due to the "Plausibility Singularity" debate we recently had. HAD 15:24, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar, I'm afraid you didn't really get a chance to defend your creation. But I think consensus is that we're rapidly reaching the point (or have already reached the point) where any more nations in North America just keeps it from being true to the timeline. On its own, I think, nobody had any problems with the Commonwealth. But taken together, I think there was just too much near the West Coast. Benkarnell 15:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I think we should graduate it quickly, and place some sort of block on building nations in the West Coast of the United States. It would be a shame to see an otherwise perfectly canonj-worthy nation go to waste.

Yankovic270 16:01, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for speedy graduation. Can we get a show in hands?

P.S:

Ben, when saying the short version of my username, it's said, Ars, not Arstar :) Arstarpool 23:11, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't graduate articles by vote. Furthermore I am with Ben, the west has gotten way to crowded and probably has fallen into the probability singularity. That being said maybe this article could be graduated if it is reconceived as one of the many city-states that ruled over Northern California and Southern Oregon, but managed to avoid coming under the jurisdiction of the MSP. Mitro 23:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know things aren't graduated by vote, but it would be better to see who would support this article becoming canon. And Mitro, the area is not as near to the MSP as seen by alot of you guys, and the location was changed several times to be sure that it could be made canon. Arstarpool 20:44, May 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think he means, shrink it down a bit so it's more of a single settlement, or a confederation of small settlements, rather than a modern republic. It could still call itself the Commonwealth of California. IMO North America ought to have a lot more "nations" that are governed at the local level, than modern territorial states. That's how my only contribution to the continent (the Yukon) works, along with the first North American survivor state we discovered (the MSP). Benkarnell 21:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the map the Commonwealth is at the southern border of the MSP, unless that is wrong. Mitro 00:02, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Confederate States of America
Intended mainly for historical purposes (although Toccoa is available for development, and I placed some small survivor towns along the Alabama/Tennessee/Mississippi border).BrianD 00:10, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

A small article associated with the article. --GOPZACK 20:08, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Zach, I clearly said on the Activity Feed page that I claimed the Muscle Shoals CSA:

Confederate States of America (1983: Doomsday) created by BrianD 20 hours ago Waynesboro is in the Muscle Shoals CSA. That said, if you can come up with a proposal for Waynesboro that works with what I come up with for this version of the CSA, I'll work it in...please keep in mind I came up with the proposal for these towns, and I've already made a claim on them for subsequent articles. BrianD 20:23, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm terribly sorry about that, I did not see the original post when it was created. I hope you don't take this article as a slap in the face but rather me failing to read the fine print. In any event I hope it can be incorporated somehow. --GOPZACK 20:34, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * De nada. Take a look at the Muscle SHoals CSA article below.BrianD 00:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm temporarily suspending work on this article until the framework for the "new" CSA is formed then me & Brain will work to make articles for the now independent city states of the CSA. --GOPZACK 19:43, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

CSA (Muscle Shoals version)

 * A proposal for a "good" Confederate States, having dissolved in 1999 due to political squabbles (not violent war or racism), and potentially set for a revival as they learn of the outside post-DD world around them. I hope I am understanding the states rights rationale correctly. BrianD 00:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Added a constitution for the country. BrianD 15:44, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Zack. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering where the Boss was on Doomsday, even I doubt he would be alive. That whole area would be one big death zone and I am not sure he would have made it out in time. Mitro 23:28, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe your right. Feel free to mark this as obsolete when you get a chance. --GOPZACK 23:57, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

and
Series of Cleveland related articles. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

After a lot of discussion, article was finally created. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking this could be similar to those timelines where after the Americans get independence, the USA promptly breaks up and the newly independent nations expand westwards. Similar idea here with the independent countries on the East coast and expanding westwards. Its just in the British Isles in a post-apocalyptic world not in America post-american revolution. Bob 11:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense to me although Woodbridge first intends to expand into Norfolk. If/when the OBN becomes canon it could get an entry in the Geopolitics article Verence71 11:21, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Vegas. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Zack. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm holding off on this one until North Florida is canonized. --GOPZACK 02:15, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 20:06, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Dsiplaced holiday makers
Hi everyone, I am a perpetual traveller, currently living in my 4th year abroard (I am in Japan from Australia).

I have just made a proposal section about displaced holiday makers. It occurred to me that there would have been literally a few million people stranded very far from home. Invariably many would have perished on Doomsday, but a few would have survived - how would they have contributed to the new republics/city states etc? Would they try to go home? How would they react when they find that home no longer exists?

Some particular examples I was thinking of is a teacher abroad, on a school excursion say in Japan.

Or someone simply on holiday, say in Hawaii, Florida or Europe, but not near a major city and survives.

What you all think?


 * I have not been able to find the "proposal section" you mentioned. However, there is already a proposed article called American diaspora (1983: Doomsday). This is a place to place all those Americans stranded in foreign lands. I suppose other "diaspora" pages would be appropriate for any and all nations that have populations dispersed around the world, even if only temporarily, on Doomsday.


 * If they are in a bombed nation and survive, their story becomes personal. If they are abroad in a safe country, but find out they can't return (or at least not easily) they become part of the story of that nation and those places to which they can travel from there. Articles in this wiki do not have to be "encyclopedic," though most are. We need some personal journals and human interest stories about surviving Doomsday. SouthWriter 02:25, May 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, I renamed it Displaced holiday travellers (1983: Doomsday). I just didn't think makers made sense. Mitro 02:39, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

South Carolina
I have started the South Carolina reference page. It is a place to place short descriptions of 1983 DD articles about the state. SouthWriter 02:00, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ii found it SouthWriter, I borroed a bit from your page on the Piedmont Republic just to get it started will change latter if ya want. i just wanted to get some sections started. and to go offtopic 4 a bit all you airwolf fans check out the airwolf wikia i am working on. the link is on my talk page here. Wingman1 02:34, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

An article to document the Somali Civil WarVegas adict 21:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Rheghed co-operative
Rheged (1983: Doomsday) a group of inter-trading independant survivor townships based in the former English county of Cumbria--Smoggy80 15:28, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Empire State
My idea for a dictatorship in the former state of New York.

Yankovic270 02:59, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Can you link up to it Yank? --GOPZACK 23:50, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

Give you an inch --- :-)

Is rural New York good soil for a dictatorship ??? SouthWriter 21:40, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Kansas
I am presently trying to build up the Provisional United States as it now stands. This is the start of the article on Kansas. SouthWriter 21:40, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Wyoming
And here is the article on Wyoming. I have not necessarily "adopted" the PUSA, but I have started these articles to allow others to fill in the gaps. SouthWriter 02:47, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Kootenai
Here is one of the "Hunkins' states." I decided to go with the "appease the natives" approach. The creation of the two states is designed to reduce the chances of another "Indian War" like that with the Lakota. --SouthWriter 23:33, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Absaroka
Here is the other Hunkins' state. This one involved relocating the "reservation" from near Billings to the border with the Republic of Lakota, but it was deemed necessary to assure peace with that nation. --SouthWriter 17:11, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to a quick graduation? --GOPZACK 19:48, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Northwest Alliance
A survivor state in the Canadian Northwest Territories. Will be fleshing it out over the next few days. --Lordganon 3:13, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

A small article on a city state set in Hugo, Oklahoma. I believe small communities like this will be the only "new" survivor states found in North America. --GOPZACK 20:10, May 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * The incompetence of the WCRB, or to be fair, the inadequacy of the WCRB, might be "finding" North American towns for a long time. We need to take a good look at those FEMA maps, discount the tertiary targets, and see what we've missed. The Dakotas were surely neglected for quite a while. Lower Minnesota (south of the Missouri) could easily survive along with northern Iowa. There is some hope for Northern California outside of the MSP. I think that most of Oklahoma is salvagable, and not as little isolated "states" (By the way, why does "Hugo" get a whole county, while Broken Bow is relegated to the district around the lake by the same name?) - It's bed time -- if I'm getting up for Bible Study in the morning! SouthWriter 05:04, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you South, I'm going to revise the map so Broken Bow has the whole county. --GOPZACK 17:32, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

: Your Opinion?
what do you think about it? please do not lie, be honest. BlackSkyEmpire

Really? Socialism in Georgia? Thats as realistic as a secular Iran or something. It's not a sensible or plausible idea.HAD 18:28, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

A state based around my home county of sussex and the Isle of WightVegas adict 18:04, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

A newly discovered city state in central Germany.Oerwinde 06:40, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

The Franklin in Mexico
I was editing the voyage of the USS Benjamin Franklin to bring it into line with what we now know about Panama: the Franklin saw that the canal was impassable and instead sailed around Cape Horn, re-establishing contact with the South American coastal states. I was going to have it sail from Brazil to Cape Verde: it's canonical that Brazil and Cape Verde (a federated member of the "new Portugal") were in contact from 1990, so the Brazilians would likely have steered the Franklin in that direction, from which they could go to Europe and complete the voyage as written. However, our recent discoveries relating to Mexico complicate things considerably. The American presence had grown a lot by then, and at the time of the Franklins visit (mid-1991), several cities were engulfed in pro- or anti-American rioting. The Torreon Accords would be signed that September, and GW Bush would be a signatory. Question: the Franklin would surely have informed the Americo-Mexicans about the provisional US government in Canberra. Bush would have learned of his father's survival. What does that do to the dynamics both in Mexico and in Australia and New Zealand? The Franklin definitely would stop: its crew had not encountered any civilization in the western US and would have been eager to know what was happening in the next country they passed. This effects the histories of several nations and key individuals, so I put it in this section of the talk page. Benkarnell 22:42, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * As the overseer of Mexico and the various Texases, the question of their relationship to the APA has been something I've been trying to resolve, because I just can't see the APA letting the Americans in Mexico, and survivor states along the border, go knowing there are survivors in those regions (remember, we already have the APA intervening in MSP, Alaska and Hawaii affairs). Onto the Franklin: it would stop, and it would have to be aware of the survivors before stopping. In regards to Mexico, it is put in a unique position as a relatively stable state in the post-Doomsday world, uber powerful on at least a regional scale, and in the middle between the APA/Australian/New Zealand and South American blocs. That political arrangement might last to this day. BrianD 22:54, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

PS: One possible "way out" would be that the Franklin was intercepted by Mexican ships as soon as it was sighted and identified. The Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs rushed out to the flotilla and begged the ship to sail on, because its arrival, if made public, would cause political turmoil. And to show you we are serious, look at these guns. The Franklin's crew would certainly see this as unreasonable but might decide to avoid trouble and sail on to El Salvador or Costa Rica, where there arrival would cause rumors back in Mexico, but not actual contact between the two American communities. Sort of a cheap retcon, but it could work, and fit with the dystopic tone of those years of the ATL. Benkarnell 22:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * But then you have to explain what was going on with Mexico (the details which still are being worked on). In the previous version of Mexico, the original editor, Guinnesscap, had "thousands of Americans leave for Australia and the Municipal States of the Pacific" after the APA dissolved. If we accept that, then that means Australia and Mexico would have had to know of each other's situations beforehand. I maintain that would be the case in 1995, and that relations between Mexico and the ANZC/APA would either be good or really bad.--BrianD 22:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe this meeting helped show the APA the enormity of their predicament: the US mainland was shot, and the US community in Mexico was much larger than it could hope to provide for. Maybe this rushed it on its way toward dissolution. (Four years isn't so long in Bureaucratic Time.) As for relations between Mexico and the APA, I would vote bad, if only beacuse everything seemingly was bad in the 1990s; I don't see the two governments working happily together. The APA could be an advocate for Americans living in Mexico, but relations with the Mexican government would remain tense. Benkarnell 23:05, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the APA's predicament. There are so many reasons for a bad APA/Mexico relationship; those would need to be hammered out. The distance between the two nations would not help, either. BrianD 23:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think on reflection that the APA would come into conflict with Mexico over the refugee issue. That, combined with trying to hold together a nation streched across thousands of miles would render the APA more and more impotent, as diverging intrests between the disparte parts of it tear the APA apart. Quick question: would West Texas be part of the APA while it existed, along with other states on the US/Mexico border?HAD 13:09, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * That would be a pretty big change to one of our major assumptions so far, but I kind of like the idea anyway. If West Texas did officially join the APA, of course, it would not have meant much in its day-to-day workings, since it was so far from the central government.
 * If that were the case, there would be a few things that need explaining. (1) Why wouldn't the APA move to Texas, part of the mainland USA? It would have had a base in actual US territory from which to expand. Answer: It also would have isolated the APA from its chief remaining resource, the US naval forces in the Pacific still under its jurisdiction. Also, the Mexicans might have objected to it if they were feeling particularly testy, which they undoubtedly were. (2) If W. Texas was in touch with the APA (and through it, the wider world), why does it seem so isolated in 2009, when it discovered the East Texans for the first time? Answer: Most/all of its contact with the wider world was through Mexico. E. Texas may still have been seen as too dangerous to venture into openly. The APA itself was also rather isolated during this time. If it did have nominal authority over Texas, it could not have made official contact more than roughly once a year. (3) Would Texas then have some relationship with Australia-New Zealand? Answer: Not necessarily. It may have felt betrayed and abandoned by the APA, and would not have seen any advantage in associating itself to ANZ, especially given that the Texans wanted to be American. That's why they linked up with the APA to begin with! It may, however, be a reliable ANZ ally in the region today. Benkarnell 13:43, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm rewriting the whole thing to try to get around the isolationism w/o turning the timeline into a Texas wank. Basically, Texas is tied economically to Mexico, which abstained from annexing the entire southwest (out of fear of open rebellion, plus ongoing issues on its southern border and due to the 1985 earthquake). Texas has an independent streak going back to the 1800s, so any issues with the APA never translated into anti-Americanism, nor any grudges against the ANZC. You're right that Mexico was the gateway in and out for many years; probably, Mexico itself only knew what was going on in the southwest and the southeast, plus the Caribbean, Central America and South America and less so in Oceania and the portions of Asia that ANZ was connected to. BrianD 21:06, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Original Author Update
First off again, I'd like to say how proud I am to have been the inspiration for this monumental series on my althist. It's really amazing, given I did nothing more than extrapolate a bit based on what happened with Colonel Petrov. It's really amazing how that incident and "how things might have gone" has inspired so much great work and imagination from so many people. I'm glad to have "gotten the ball rolling" so many years ago.

That said, one thing I do find disturbing about all the Post-Doomsday articles and elements....a rather optimistic view of how things turned out the post-holocaust years. The rise of viable, even militarily strong American nation-states...as well as a "Well, wasn't that inconvenient?" attitude about the impact of a nuclear war on the world.

People, such an event would have been catastrophic to humanity. Setting aside America being knocked back to a population level LOWER than what it was before Columbus arrived...and the ensuing lack of agriculture and rise of diseases not seen since the 1600s....the effect on the rest of the world, even the Southern Hemisphere would have been tremendous. Even by 1983, the world was fairly "inter-connected"...the loss of American, Soviet, European, and Japanese industries would have crippled Australia and South America's engineering, construxtion, medical supplies, and more importantly...food production.

I'm sorry, but all this "Mad Max" meets "New World Order based in Canberra" stuff is EXTREMELY rose-colored glasses. The world would be knocked back in time CENTURIES in terms of economics and technology and political organization.

Sorry....just my opinion for what it's worth. 12.169.202.130 18:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Before I address the merits of your argument I have to ask: how do we know you were the original creator? Considering that I already had to deal with one person falsely claiming to be the creator and your IP address does not match with the one the original creator used, I hope you can understand why I am skeptical. Mitro 19:24, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to hear this as well. BrianD 21:42, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

NAU Treaty?
Do we have/should we develop a page for the North American Union Treaty? Louisiannan 20:31, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I never actually thought what the treaty would look like, but after seeing South's version of the PUSA constitution I think we should consider what the Treaty would read like. Mitro 21:07, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Might this be of use? Louisiannan 22:25, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Disregard for the Cooperative Nature of the Timeline
More and more it seems to me that contributors to this timeline are taking a "this is mine, screw you and your suggestions" attitude. If this is how the timeline is developing, I'm just about ready to pull out. This doesn't jive with QSS and QAA - and I don't want any part of it if that's where we're heading. Louisiannan 19:57, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Louis what exactly has happened that makes you think this way? Mitro 20:09, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * The debacle between me and Fxgentleman about Utah and Sierra Nevada, the snit between GOPZack and Black Sky Empire about creating the "Socialist States of Georgia", the whole issue of Superior and its 100,000 man army, and so on. It just seems to be getting worse - everyone's carving out their own little sphere of influence and giving the finger (or two if you're British) to those who have any sort of comment on the subject to the contrary of the author's imagining. It was all I could do to stop myself from destroying Utah under a massive earthquake and subsequent flood of radioactive water, and France capitulating to a sneak attack of the Sicilians for the last few days. Louisiannan 22:11, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear Louisianan feels our current disagreement over the eastern border between the SNU and Utah is a disaster. I have been patiently waiting since the request was made for mediation and had not said anything further since. I realize I have only been a contributor since last September, but I have always done my best to conduct myself in accordance with the decorum of the room and I believe my writings support that. As to our difference of opinion, I have already laid out my arguments on the SNU discussion page in a logical manner. I must confess surprise when another writer implies I am being uncooperative and trying to subvert canon history to ensure the storyline I envision. Especially, given I read said relevant articles before penning my own and did not find any written reference to the history I am informed I am not adhering to. As I have stated before, if I have missed something, please show me where it is and I will do my best to try and adjust my article. Having said this, I don't know what more to say in response. --Fxgentleman 22:58, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

I to am sorry Louis that me and Black Sky Empire's disagreement over the viability of socialism in Georgia has been a contributing factor in making you feel this way. With that said I am baffled that a discussion about socialism in Georgia would make you feel the way you do. I do not have object to the idea of a city state of some kind in Georgia its the embrace of socialism and communism, (the ideology of the nation that destroyed them) that troubles me. There are a few other sections in the article itself I would object to but I would hardly call that giving the finger. After all we do ask before an article is graduated something along the lines of "Any objections to graduation?" You have raised objections, I have raised objections and I'd hardly call 95% of these debates "snits" or "debacles" or "giving the finger". --GOPZACK 23:27, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Louis and Fx, I have started a discussion near the top of this page about your dispute over the borders of Utah and SN. I feel that bringing this to the group's attention and letting them decide is the proper way to resolve your dispute.
 * That being said, there are a few comments I wish to make regarding what Louis has said. One of the reasons I prefer this wiki in discussing alternate history instead of the larger forum of AH.com, is that I like the way people treat each other here. Generally there is an atmosphere of cooperation, probably brought upon by the nature of "anyone can edit" idea that is inherit in any wiki. This cooperation has attractted people who are more likely to be polite and respectful of others when disagreements and dispute arise.
 * Recently I too have felt that this has not been the case. I hate to bring up my pet theory, but this probably is the result of the inevitable plausibilty singularity, especially in regards to North America. As more nations are entered into canon, arguments over implausibility/plausibility or the TL being a dystopia become more heated.
 * This brings me to my next point, which is that I feel that the TL has become to optimistic. Correct me if I am wrong Louis, but I think this fear was also present in your comments (especially in regards to your comment about Superior's military). Part of this may be that people are inadvertedly treating the TL as an RPG and want their pet nation to be as strong as possible, even if it means stepping over the limits of plausibility. I first noticed this when discussion of the Saguenay War was still popular. It seemed that everyone wanted their nation to be involved in it, without even considering whether it was plausible.
 * That probably is not the only reason, however, that has caused this problem. I think Ben put it best when he said that we are no longer looking at the TL as whole when we graduate individual articles. We spend so much time trying to make sure each individual article is perfect that we don't stop to think whether it fits into the general themes of the TL itself. We now have someone claiming to be the creator of this TL saying that it is to optimistic, and though the jury is still out on whether he/she really is the creator, a comparison of their writing styles makes me feel that he/she may be telling the truth.
 * I have no substantive suggestions to make to correct some of these issues. Since I am going to be gone most of the summer I realize I won't be much help. The only thing I can suggest is that we remember the cooperative nature of this TL and work as a group to discuss our issues. Since this project owes alot to its "parent" the Ill Bethisad project, I reccomend checking out the The June Revolt article, which shows that every issue that arises in a project can be solved by group discussion and consensus. Mitro 17:26, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at that June Revolt artical actualy shows me how things can go badly wrong in a colabarative project. The best thing about 1983 Doomsday is that anyone can come along and make an artical about somthing, Im my opinion the main problem is this obsesion with creating things neer where you live or in the same country. To me part of the chalange of writing an AltHist (Or Artical for one) is going out and researching what your writing about, I had only visited Ethiopia once and had never visited Eritrea, Somalia or Sudan and to me that makes an AltHist more fun.Vegas adict 18:43, May 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, all. I have more-or-less been on the sidelines the last two to three weeks, largely because I wanted to form my thoughts as this "crisis" began to brew. I told Louisianan via e-mail that I'd get involved in the Sierra Nevada dispute but never did, and I apoligize for that. It's pretty clear this project is at a major juncture, and there are a whole lot of factors pulling it in different directions. To wit:


 * Firstly, everyone should read MeatballWiki's short page "Crossing the Tipping Point", which describes a moment of crisis in a community in which oldtimers and newcomers are at odds over the future of the project. This happens to all communities that reach A Certain Size, both online and in Real Life. And note that while that page appears to be a decade old, nobody has been able to give a good solution to the problem. Ill Bethisad decided to go with "HardSecurity" - its Wiki has not been open to the public since the "Revolt". And clearly, it's less chaotic, less busy, and people are more able to take time to get things right, rather than try keeping up with constant growth. On the other hand, it's a lot less lively than it once was, and there are lots of areas that probably need work, but have lain untouched for several years.


 * Here, there is a clear "generational" conflict between (roughly) 2008-9ers and 2009-10ers. The 8-9ers, broadly, do not like seeing the formerly barren world of 83DD fill up with thriving, verdant states. As the third or fourth contributor to this project, and as somebody who still wishes Prussia and the new USSR were not so big, I'm clearly in that camp myself. The 9-10ers, meanwhile, are fine seeing new states in just about any place not actually inside a blast zone. We have different ideas on not only what is possible for 83DD, but also on what is desirable. It's a fundamental disagreement, and you can see it toward the bottom of, where SouthWriter razzes me a little for being so gloom-and-doom.


 * Both the 8-9ers and the 9-10ers have truly legitimate feelings and motivations. We who joined early had a completely blank slate with which to work. You who came later wanted the same creative freedom. In a sense it's not fair that a democratic republic in one random corner of the US (say, Upper Michigan) would be accepted easily, while a republic in another random corner (say, Nevada) would be slammed by the Establishment, simply because one of them came along first. And once a new page is created, it's very hard to say no to somebody who has put a lot of work into their creation. I have to admit that my first inclination upon seeing the Sierra Nevada page was to say, "No way, it's empty woods and deserts" - but seeing just how much time and energy FXG had put into it made me back away without saying anything.


 * In the other direction, we early writers naturally feel upset when things we created are called into question. A month or so ago someone floated the idea of de-canonizing my Panama Canal page, and I admit I became positively pissy about it. But it's not just our words that we feel protective of - it's also our unwritten assumptions and ideas about the shape of the 83DD world. The self-identified creator above expressed dismay at the high populations of the US and Europe not necessarily becasue they contradict his/her original words exactly, but because they are so contrary to his/her underlying concept for the setting. The US was originally described as a wasteland, and we've had to add a whole lot of "except for"s to that description.


 * Showing my own bias, I'll echo Vegas's concern about a "hometown syndrome" affecting some of the newer pages: everyone wants his or her own backyard to be part of a happy, stable community. But I think our conflicts are much deeper than that, see above.


 * I think we, as a collective, have done our best to try and keep up with 83DD's growth. We started the system of formal proposals quite early as a way of putting up an additional gate before adding something to the project officially. But a look at our enormous backlog shows that even this system is no longer ideal. I mean, I haven't read most of the pages on that list. Have you?


 * So what now? We have put a number of possible solutions out there, none of them very pleasant. Louisianan has said he considered dropping from the project and taking his creations with him. Mitro's much-discussed postulation of a "plausibility singularity" was an attempt to slow down or stop growth... one that IMO would never succeed because we'd still have a proposal for a new American republic every two days, only this time we'd respond to each with "Plausibility Singularity, goodbye", making both the newcomers and ourselves rather upset. I don't think any of us joined up so we could slam newcomers with barrages of pentasyllabic words, all the while sitting on the proverbial front porches of our own creations ready to shoot anyone who comes too close.


 * Another solution often proposed would be to pick up and move to a different site where traffic would be lower and we could take time to sort through the TL a little better. I have a feeling that we would lose a large part of our contributors if that happened. I was part of an alt-history project that relocated (twice), and it died pretty fast after the relocation. Notice that nobody's done a thing since March, and even then we were down to maybe five users from an original group of a few dozen.


 * So I really don't know where we should go from here. 1983DD, as it is, is definitely not what anyone wants. "We" wish the newer re[publics would wither up and go back to being lawless wasteland, and "You" wish "We" would stop hampering your creativity with constant whining about refugees and bandits and infrastructure. I honestly can't think of how to resolve the impasse. I just hope we can come up with something better when we're done - and do it without getting emotional about it.


 * Sincerely, Benkarnell 16:33, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have observed this conversation, and several others, and have interacted (and been questioned by) members of both camps! This project is beginning to be frustrating, in regards to the two camps that Ben has so well defined beginning to conflict with one another, and trying to keep both in mind while creating articles.
 * It's also frustrating when you call for feedback, and one camp responds and you hear next-to-nothing from another camp. So when I create, say, the former CSA as a country that fell apart in the late '90s due to political squabbling, and the latter camp is enthusiastic, and I hear nothing from the veterans, I'm thinking 'when is the shoe going to drop' or 'hey, the vets don't really care, or this is fine with them'. Then the shoe drops, and you have people saying we've gone too far and been too optimistic. I probably went too far in the optimistic direction, rewriting Texas after SouthWriter said the two Texases should have reunited in the mid-90s...and now I've put Texas on pause because I'm not sure if that really fits the vision of the timeline or if it's gone too far. And while I would love to get feedback on the various Texases and the CSA and other articles I've created, I'm not sure if doing anything more is even worth it until all this is resolved. I might change my mind tomorrow and work on more articles, but my frustration will still be there.
 * This is something that may be served by having one person, or one group of people, clearly define the guidelines. Because if you go with group consensus, I'm afraid there never will be consensus. It's hard enough as is, especially since the originator nor the early editors ever laid specific guidelines beyond 'everything in Europe and the USSR and the US is desolate'. I'm not sure what the answer is...maybe we should split the timeline? With one timeline going back to the original vision, and another a less severe version of it? One with a balkanized North America with a militaristic Virginia on one side and an outlaw groups of city states overseen by the ANZC and SAC on another - and another timeline with 3,000 miles of dead cannibals and radioactive dead zones between the MSP and the Atlantic.--BrianD 17:23, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Forking and nominating "benevolent dictators" are other suggestions in the Meatball Wiki article, and I don't think either is very satisfactory. Forking the project would firstly be a very drastic move that can't but end in mutual resentment. And secondly, it would be horrendously artificial, since it would be quite clear that both forks diverged from the same world. Would people be allowed to participate in both? No, there are a lot of reasons why forking the project would not go well.
 * In theory, we appointed some leaders a long time ago. I'm one, and so is Mitro. But newcomers naturally question why certain people get official rights, and in the end there's either a return to consensus, or the imposition of harsher, most un-wiki-like leadership - something that runs counter to both me and Mitro's style, certainly.
 * The best thing might be a mandatory pause - no new ideas until we get some serious things sorted out. There must be a way to forge consensus on, for example, the population and industrial capacity of affected areas. If we can nail down some of those parameters, we can be much stricter in enforcing the rule of QSS - if it's written, abide by it. If we had followed that from the beginning there would be less talk about "Why did the explorers miss so much when they wrote their reports" and so on. Benkarnell 17:37, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

If I may clarify my pet theory, the “plausibility singularity” was never meant to be a solution to some of the issues affecting the community, though it appears to have evolved that way. Originally it was just a prediction of an upcoming event where more articles would be marked as obsolete instead of being graduated due to conflicts with canon and plausibility. Now the term is used, and I am partially at fault, as an excuse to mark an article as obsolete because some people feel it contradicts the assumptions of the TL. Again that was never my intention, but it has happened and I apologize.

Brian, if I may address your comments, I do not thinking splitting the TL is the right thing to do. For one thing it will hurt both communities and would no doubt lead to bad blood between everyone. IMO, we need to be uniting the factions, not separating them if we want to keep this TL alive. I also want to say that the veterans don’t feel that the former US should be empty. We always assumed that there were nations and communities that might have formed out of the old US (and Canada for that matter), but no one had written about them yet. I think our greatest concern is there just too many of them now, especially ones that are highly advanced, to be plausible.

In the spirit of brainstorming, where any wild idea can be heard, I do have a suggestion that might solve the issues between the factions. I think every canon article should be considered “under review” by the community. With a process that might take months, the members of the community will review each and every canon article and revise and update them. Though canon will be respected, it will be viewed as being more flexible in the spirit of cooperation. This will allow the 8-9ers to prune or remove elements of the TL they find to be too optimistic, while allowing 09-10ers the chance to prune or remove elements they find to be overly pessimistic. As the discussion continues, the Timeline itself will be rebuilt from the ground up and be the main point of canon. Through discussion both sides can build and revise the themes of the TL (such as the status of the infrastructure in targeted states, affect of EMPs, population levels, etc.), making them acceptable to everyone. Meanwhile the Editorial Guidelines will be revised during this when issues come up. Of course during this time all current and new proposals will remain proposals until the majority of the canon articles have been removed.

A major problem I forsee with this suggestion is that no ones wants to see their hard work torn to pieces by others. During the reviews, people may become upset by how their work is being treated and leave, or get revenge by being unnecessarily judgmental when someone else’s article is being reviewed.

Also the most important element of this TL that keeps us here and attracts new people is that it is fun. Reviewing each and every article and arguing with other editors instead of creating new content might quickly turn into work and cause people to leave, or repulse new contributors.

Anyway, this is just a suggestion. Mitro 18:00, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Typical. I go on holiday for a weekend and civil war looms :p. More seriously, i agree with Mitros proposals on reveiwing all are articles and bringing those that are not up to our standards and/or inplausible in for editting.HAD 18:20, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ben & Mitro, splitting the TL is not the way to go at least for now. As for this review I'm not sure whether such a thing is a good idea. We are already fractured as it is and to go through each article in such a fashion would only create more fighting and bad blood. I know Mitro you mentioned this already but I just want to echo your concerns. So far none of these options so far are desierable. Such a review would lead to as HAD put it, a civil war. GOPZACK 18:42, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as a a 09-10er this discussion seems to be getting a bit too heavy for something that was meant to be fun Verence71 18:47, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I certainly didn't mean to create rigid categories within our community, only to try and define the problems that have been lurking here and there. I think that most people aren't totally happy with where we're at, and what we need is a way to get back on track, so to speak. Benkarnell 19:04, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that and I realise that my article on Woodbridge could be percieved as a bit optimistic and I'd have no objection to having it put under review. It wouldn't take that long as as it is fairly basic compared to some of the detail on other articles. I think your idea of a moratorium on new articles is probably the best way to go for now. Verence71 19:15, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't want to do anything to divide or bring more bad blood into the community. The dividing idea was one thought to please both sides, to give them opportunities to create. Collaboration and discussion would be beneficial, as would remembering that no one here is an evil ogre bent on destroying your hard work. We're all human beings, who have different ideas. We won't agree on everything but together, perhaps, we can come up with some really great concepts. BrianD 19:22, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * If I may, I'd just like to give my two cents on this issue. I am the creator of much of what is being written about Siberia and of course I am not going to pretend that there hasn't been some disagreement on the entire article and maybe that is my fault. I'm pretty certain that there will come a day when there will be some sort of revision of the country, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
 * However, I do feel the main source of arguments has been North America. FYI, I have been on this wiki for quite some time, but mostly in the form of a reader and I have enjoyed all of the work done to it before I arrived. But just around the time I started contributing there has been a tidal wave of new articles, mostly in America, which I haven't hade a chance to read, even though I'd really like to. It's only natural that with 90% of the contributors of this TL being from either the US or the UK that this trend would arise. Thus, I believe that it would be best if some sort of project to revise some aspects of the TL started in North America. I admire everyones work and mean to disrespect no one, but since most work that could possibly conflict with the TL is in America, it is only logical to start there. Then we can move on to Europe and Asia and anywhere else that the nukes would have fallen.--Vladivostok 19:23, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * May I suggest a qualifier: No new nations until futher notice.We should, until such a time as is deemed appropriate, focus on more specific issues, such as updating maps and images, Creating pages on things like the "Soviet Armed Forces" for example, updating pages like "Science and Technology" and on finally deciding on a plausible and sensible conclusion to the 2nd Scilly War and the Sangueny War. I also believe we should NOT split the timeline from the wiki, or in any shape or form. And their are still Nations from the very beginnings of this timeline that need updating, finishing or even beginning, the Alpine Confederation being a prime example, Transylvania being anotherHAD 19:30, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think instead we should say no new proposals for nations and try to finish looking at all of the curent proposals carefully. Also Ben i don't think the Backyard Syndrome (As i call it) is a new thing. People will allways try to make things neer where they live before looking further afieldVegas adict 20:32, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

After reviewing the most recent posts, I have come up with a new proposal that I think includes the suggestions that have been made:


 * All proposals on new nations carved out of the former United States or new article proposals dealing specifically with a current former US survivor states are to be put on hold. This will allow people to continue to create new articles that do not have anything to do with the former United States. Also we should still be able to move to make articles obsolete, even ones dealing with the US, because we should not allow unacceptable articles to remain with the other proposals for long periods of time.


 * All current national profiles for nations carved out of the former US, and any article(s) specifically related to them (i.e. List of Presidents of…) should be considered under review as per the Editorial Guidelines. They will be welcomed back into canon or removed from canon once the members of the community have a chance to weigh in on them.


 * While no other national profiles will be under review, editors are highly encouraged to bring up any other nations for review to resolve any lingering disputes that might still be simmering under the surface.

I also would like to make two new proposals that might be somewhat controversial:


 * The creation of a Nation Guidelines (1983: Doomsday) article. This article will supplement the current Editorial Guidelines and will act as a general checklist for graduating any new nation. It will be built by the community after discussion of various elements that usually cause contention among members (such as territorial size, population size, surviving infrastructure, energy concerns, etc.). Since the world is varied these guidelines would need to be general, but hopefully it could be used to preserve the overriding themes of the timeline.


 * A new rule to the Editorial Guidelines that bars editors from creating nations that encompass their hometown. This will hopefully prevent the “Backyard Syndrome” which might cause some editors to create nations that are not plausible because they tend to have everything go right for their nation. This does not prevent, however, these editors from working on articles that encompass their hometown that were created by others or teaming up with another editor in creating a nation that encompasses their hometown. Thus their expertise in the area can still be used while the other editor(s) will provide a safeguard for over-optimistic articles.

Thoughts, concerns, comments? Mitro 21:04, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with everything except for the view of all American survivor nations and their associate articles. That would just further divide and disillusion contributors, present and future.


 * As for the "Nation Guidelines" I need to see that in more detail before I decide whether I'm for or against it. I love the idea of a ban on the so called "Backyard Syndrome" and I believe Mitro (If it was someone else I apologize), you had an idea that the WCRB would issue a report stating something to the extent of "No new North American survivor nations are expected to be found" thus closing the gate on large survivor nations while at the same tim keeping the dorr open to small city states and farm communities. I agree we have to cap the growing number of large establish survivor nations (hence why I now oppose the Indiana article). GOPZACK 23:54, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

When I chose to become a contributor, the last thing I envisioned was ending up in heated arguments with anyone. As I believe I stated to Louisianan, I am by nature analytical, which basically means I research, contemplate, and research some more long before I chose to write to see if my idea has merit or feasibility. I work in an atmosphere where this is an intricate part of how my colleagues and I perform our jobs. We debate our thoughts on a given assignment and make changes accordingly as a result of this interaction. I guess I tend to forget not everyone is like that. Even though I enjoy althistory, I have been disappointed at many of the stories I have seen on both the web and in print which included some fairly farfetched divergences and stories. I decided to join here after reading the site for 6 months because of what I saw as a genuine effort by writers and managers to ground these articles in reality.

I try my best to make sure what I write makes sense. I have never thought my articles were upbeat, such as saying 60% of a state died. I think Mitro made an excellent point sometime ago in that it becomes overwhelming at times when you stop and realize you are mapping out how people, albeit fictional, perished. It tends to get to me, especially since I was living outside of Washington in 1983. I have noted with some surprise though over the past months how some articles have become a walk on the far side of reality. There are just some parts of the world I would not have logically seen the war as leaving survivors, let alone being able to sustain a nation. Yet, I have continued to see nations pop up in these areas regularly. Another subject which I have found fascinating, has been the restoration of factories, electricity, telephones, TV stations, and even cinema in some regions at what struck me was an amazing pace. Heck, I am still trying to figure out how the loss of electricity would affect water and sewage treatment and if the telegraph would be better replacement for phones. I realize these are just my thoughts, so I am not saying I am right or wrong. I have made it a personal policy of mine to not change other writers article's, but to offer suggestions.

All of us, whether old or new contributors, have spent a great deal of time and effort in trying to write our articles and flesh out this ATL. Even though I am having a disagreement with Louisianan at the moment, I still think his article on Utah is pretty good. It would be a shame and a disservice to everyone's hard efforts if some kind of consensus could not be reached. Even though I put a lot of effort into my articles, I have no problem with someone's honest thoughts on what I have written. All I ask is if they feel there is a genuine concern over what I have written, they show me the civility of explaining what they feel the problem is and allow me to present my thoughts in rebuttal. If need be, I am not adverse to making changes if someone can show me my error logically. Hey, lets face it, none of us are perfect.--Fxgentleman 02:33, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

In principle I agree with trying to deal with the Backyard Syndrome even if it would cause me some problems. My home village is now part of Woodbridge so if I were to ret-con things so a plane crashed on the village on Doomsday causing massive damage and forcing the village to be evacuated would that be acceptable?? Verence71 09:08, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

I think there are two reasons people write Backyard Syndrome articles. One is that they would like to see their hometown surviving and preferably doing well. But there is another reason for creating 'hometown states' - you have a far better idea at how people will react. I could write an article about some central African survivor nation if I wished, but I have no idea how they would have reacted to Doomsday, and if I don't know that I can't be as realistic as I would like. I wrote about Essex mostly because I know pretty well how people would have reacted and coped, even if it did turn out fairly optimistic.

By the sound of some of the arguments here we want the entire world outside of a precious few nations to be doom, gloom and cannibals. That's cool, but not very realistic: OTL Africa isn't all poverty and poachers; there are pockets of wealth, and liberty, and happiness, despite what all the charity adverts might tell you. If we're taking the approach of 'everything north of the equator is glow-in-the-dark wasteland' then I think we're being less realistic than we should be. People will survive, and people will build nations, some good and some bad. If I have any opposition at all to the number of survivor states we have it's only that we have a lot of 'Republic of...' countries. Fegaxeyl 09:30, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Saying "doom, gloom and cannibals" is over simplifying the other side's argument. Myself and others have never claimed that the entire world would be a scene from Road Warrior.  I think Fx summed it up best that there are contributors on this site who feel that recent creations are on the "far side of reality."  Nations are gaining abilities and tech with no explanation of how it is possible.  We are not trying to turn the whole world into a post-apocalyptoic wasteland, I don't think anyone has ever assumed that Africa is nothing but "poverty and poachers," but we do believe however that places that were hit hardest on doomsday would not places of wealth, liberty and happiness.  I really am starting to feel that this is the major issue between the two sides.  Everyone is making assumptions about what everyone else wants and no one has asked them personally what their opinion is.  It really is frustrating to have to constantly say "No, I never said that."  Mitro 13:16, May 17, 2010 (UTC)