Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Archive 1

Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps


Maps will be updated every 50 years.

Siam
Total:
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Siam (L), Sukhothai (MV): 6
 * Military Development:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive: 7
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Recent Wars: 0

Khmer/Cambodia
Total:
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Khmer (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Cbb chance Scandinator (talk)

Austria
Total: 68
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Austria (L), Venice (M), Byzantine Empire (MV), Bavaria-Munchen(S), Bavaria-Straubing (SV), Bavaria-Landshut (SV), England (M), Brandenburg (SV), Aragon (M), Milan (M): 23
 * Military Development: 8
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count: 2103
 * UTC Time: 3:51
 * 2103/15*pi= 440.45129
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Participating in another war: -5

Albert VI's Rebels
Total: 49*1.5=73.5
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Albert VI's Rebels (L), Bohemian Rebels (M), Istrian Rebels (M), Croatian Rebels (M), Hungary (M), Luxembourg(S), Palatinate (S): 20
 * Military Development: 8
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit Count: 2103
 * UTC Time: 3:51
 * 2103/15*pi= 440.45129
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 6
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
The rebels can annex at most (73.5/(73.5+68)*2)-1=3.8% of Austria's remaining territory. Upper Austria (Tirol) remains independant, Aquelia forms.

Discussion
When did Luxembourg support Albert? I have to interest to support the hated Albert and fight against Austria. I refuse to fight Austria in a form. If Luxembourg will help, I shall not in any form and I will even declare independence from Luxembourg and throw off vassalization. Does Luxembourg even have a player? Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:12, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I side with Austria ... Bavaria These are not the droids you are looking for. 04:19, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Bavaria cant send military supplies since then it would be fighting three wars at a time and lose the reunification war. Brandenburg is a vassal of Luxembourg which wants the HRE throne and will do anthing to claim it. If you declare independence then you will be fighting another war. Scandinator (talk) 04:25, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Very well, I will still try to send some basic help to my emperor. Also I thought I was only fighting one war, the war of unification?These are not the droids you are looking for. 04:38, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

England will support Austria, but the anglo-irish lordships won't be capable to send help for obvious reasons. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 04:27, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I certainly shan't fight Austria. **** off, Luxembourg.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:31, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

I thought Byzantium was Conquered? Saamwiil (talk) 04:36, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Also, why isn't Burgundy there if Luxembourg is? How can the rebels have military development? Isn't their population limited to their armed forces? They aren't a nation, they're just rebels.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:41, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

The rebels were trained by Hungary, Venice resuced the Greek remanents of Byzantium. Burgundy and Luxembourg have nothing in common. They have seized part of Austria already and that area is their population base. If you wish not to supply or fight Austria's enemy with your 1 point then declare independence and have a proxy war with Luxembourg. Scandinator (talk) 04:44, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well, and I am smarter than that. I just got out of a war. I shall wait, meanwhile engaging in a diplomatic war with Luxembourg. And I thought Burgundy is also a Luxmebourgish vassal.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 04:48, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry MP old chap, but apparently Bavaria is not allowed to directly help you. Gott in Hemmel!!!! Das ist Sehr sclecht!!These are not the droids you are looking for. 04:51, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

But remnants isn't a whole state. You might get some military build up, but they wouldn't be a major factor in the war. Byzantine's army wasn't even that large at its demise. Saamwiil (talk) 04:56, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Wait! Milan is also helping Austria, I just haven't post yet. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 05:05, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

It's been three years since venice took over the Greek parts of Byzantium. Somethings got done and they have an official army which Venice transported to Austria. Scandinator (talk) 06:39, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

Where did DeanSims say Venice could annex the Greek parts of the Byzantine Empire? He was able to annex it all, unless he gave the rest of Venice they can't take it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:43, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

He said that the Ottomans annexted the Byzantine Empire, which presumably means all of it. LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:52, September 9, 2012 (UTC)

OTL The Ottomans took Athens in 1458 and the rest of Greece in 1460. The Greeks also declared independence as the short-lived Despotate of Morea in this time period. Venice with it's holdings on the Peninsula ATL stepped in and offer the Greeks protection from the Ottomans. Also the Ottomans could not take Constantinople and Greece in a year. To dismantle the seige equipment and march south straight away would kill morale. Scandinator (talk) 12:11, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

According to Florence's player, they are now supporting Austria. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 01:30, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Algorithm
Another suggestion I might make is to give people a slight bonus, perhaps plus 3 or 4 for having a nation page. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 01:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

>.> This is a joke, right? If yes, I fail to see where the funny is.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 02:03, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. I'm being totally serious here. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 10:12, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I actually agree with Pita. This forces the "conquerers and tyrants" of map games to put effort into this one. Scandinator (talk) 12:27, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I agree and disagree. Yes I want people to put a lot of effort in, but I think making someone loose a war isn't the fairest way. Hmmm, I'm not too sure on this. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:41, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

What about player vs. NPC wars? That could mess the algorithms up. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 14:38, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think I'm with Von. It's a good idea to reward people for working hard, but that might be a little too much of a reward. Maybe instead a nation page automatically counts for one year of military and economic buildup . CourageousLife (talk) 20:24, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just have revolts in the nations of people who refuse to make any nation pages after 10 days of playing the game. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:51, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Holy....

Hang on, I'm making one now. The Royal Guns (talk) 21:58, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Far too hard to punish people for not making pages. I agree with the revolt proposal of LLB. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 22:08, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

The revolt is still a punishment albeit a much less serious one. Perhaps a famine or economic disaster instead too? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 10:16, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think if the first ten years after joining pass and not page is created the player should have a revolt, if he has a vassal or colony, then it should gain independence, being annexed by other state or become savage (black) territory. After that, if a page is still not created, every six or seven years, periodical disaster would happen, such as famines, minor revolts, economical crisis, &c...

If a page for colonies is not created, then revolts, and, after much time, independence, despopulation or foreign annexation. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 00:24, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Making a section for your vassals and colonies on your country's page is okay? i mean, it is difficult to create a page if you don't know how the cities are going to be called. that's why i never created pages for my colonies when i played as Hungary on the original game. i didn't had any idea of how they would name a colony.since i live in a former Portuguese colony, naming them will be easier, but what if i create a colony in a place that Portugal never colonized.How am i going to have a idea of how they would name it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:14, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Then you make your best guess. I tend to go with the native language of the colonizer to describe the area. Florida was a spanish word 'Flowery Land'. The english tended to name places after people, such as Virginia, a reference to Queen Elizabeth I, the 'Virgin Queen'. Heck, all of america was named for Amerigo Vespucci (I think that's how you spell his name). Many people named the place after the people who lived there. Quebec was an Algonquin word 'Kebec', for 'where the river shortens'. There's all kinds of ways to name a place, and as long as it's plausible, it'll be fine. CourageousLife (talk) 21:29, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Portuguese also did it (native language) sometimes.that's why we have cities with names like Itaquaquecetuba, Pindamonhagaba, Araraquara, Guarapari, Paranaguá, Itamaracá, etc... --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:29, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

The name doesn't have to be related with the OTL name. The spaniards (I'm form a former spanish colony) used to call towns in native names (for example, 'Tucumán, Neuquén', in mapudungun), after saints ('San Luis, San Juan' that mean 'Saint Louis, Saint John'), after an already existing place in Spain that they associated with this enw palce ('La Rioja' is an argentinan province, naemd after an already existing spanish one, other example will be New York named after York, in England), after an explorer (America after Americo Vespucci) or even after the territory itself for a particualr characteristic. The river in which the cities of Buenos Aires ('Fair Winds') and Montevideo (I don't know the ethymology and it has no meaning in spanish) were palced was names Río de la Plata ('Silver River'), as the spanish thought they could find silver on it.

The portugueses basicly did the same, don't worry for have some cities in different colonies with the same name, and other minor details.--186.60.17.13 17:00, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Venice
Total: 69
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Venice (L), Byzanite Empire (MV), Bavaria (S), Bavaria-Straubing (SV), Bavaria-Landshut (SV), Croatian Rebels (M), Papal States (S), Aragon (MV), Brandenburg (M), Epirus (S), Sweden (MV), Norway (MV), Denmark (M): 29
 * Military Development: 10
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count: 1260
 * UTC Time: 21:29
 * 1260/36*pi= 109.9557428
 * Nation Age: -5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Hungary
Total: 42
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Hungary (L): 4
 * Military Development: 8
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 5
 * Edit Count: 1260
 * UTC Time: 21:29
 * 1260/36*pi= 109.9557428
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -2

Result
Crushing Venetian victory. Venice can at most annex (69/(69+42)*2)-1=24.3243% of Hungarian territory.

Reminds me of the Hungarian World War from Imperial Europe I. :( PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 21:54, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Scaring people into submisison
I was wondering, since the only real reson why the Russian states are fragmented is becayuse a long time ago brothers warred to become the Grande Prince of Kiev, and then settle with their cities but with sovreignty, with culture, faith and basicaly the same dynasties, would it be possible if we annex one due to war we could scare the rest into being annexed with our military power(in an either you join us and have our military protect you or we do the same thing we did to the other guy type of way). Would that be allowed as long as its plausible? or would we have to stick with them being vassals or have a war with Each of them to get their territory-Lx (leave me a message) 21:57, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

lol. Well, I'm getting Tver, Rostov, and Yaroslavl. But, yeah, I suppose that is true.

How about the Samoyeds and etc? ]

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:28, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

They're tribes, its just normal expansion for them...no war required...after all ,there is no central governement and they are nomads. you don't need war to expand into black areas...at least not in the original PM you didnt.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:34, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense to be able to annex a vassal that has been vassalized for a while. It would be a transition from independence to annexation, first you scare them or bribe them into vassalization, then you increase your influence over a decade or too, until you have total control over them and they can't resist being annexed.

However, I have been considering making individual city-states (like in the HRE) able to be annexed without an algorithm. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:49, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Also on the subject of vassals, I want to establish that using a RNG to determine if it is realistic to vassalize a nation or not is unrealistic. Unless you have totally surrounded the nation and have an incredible advantage, you should spend multiple turns (4-5 at least) using diplomacy to threaten, bribe, or persuade that vassal to join your main nation. I'm just going to get rid of any limit on the number of vassals a nation can have, as in OTL they didn't have any limits, but I will say that the combined area/population of the vassal states gained through methods other than algorithmic war should not be more than half of the area of the main nation LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:12, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

The Russian States of Tver, Yaroslavl and Rostov are surrounded by either muscovy or muscovy/novgorod

NO. I called them. Muscovy doesn't have a lot of options for expansion.

The Royal Guns (talk) 22:34, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

May be you should make a aprtition, struggle for the domain of those states or just create a joint federation with both your countries. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 00:27, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

I think its totally ridiculous, but I did create one that I am working on. Anywho, Moscow is going to collapse soon with all its wars and whatnot. You really should cut down on the expansion a bit. Work on the inside for a while. Then when you think you're ready, go after everyone.

Syngraféas Enallaktikí̱ Istoría, Dic mihi lingua Anglorum. 00:20, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Protestant Reformation
I am currently consulting with LordGanon as to plausible places for it to begin, so please don't try and start one before I can bring back some more info. I think nothing major should occur until 1510 at the earliest. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:06, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Tibet
So, can it get a colour on the 1460 map?

Also, what happened to the labelled maps? I need to know what the names of the states around me are... 77topaz (talk) 06:59, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

About vassalizing and unifying
Ok, I'm getting tired. I have seen to far historical and political mistakes by many players, such as: I wanna to say that, I think we should stop this vassalization thing, specially on the HRE. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 17:37, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Vassalizing. Many have said that you have to brib or threaten a country to make it a vassal. That's fine, but many people takes it just as it is written. To vassalize a state, you must have do something more than just saying "I'm start to brib this one so I get to make him my vassal in a few turns". You have to do stuff, sending ambassadors, offering royal marriages, giving the government or the people gifts, send ultimatums, instigate rebellions, &c...
 * Dynastical union. Who was the one who wrote that a dynastical union is a unin of two state with the same dynasty? History is full with states of the same dynasty that had different governments (such as Spain and Austria after Charles I's abdication). What's the political meaning of having the same dynasty? Two states in that condition usually are allied with each other, but their government are totaly independent from the other one's.
 * Personal union. I say again, you don't just ask another country to join you in a union. For that to happen, you must be allies, arrange a royal marriage between the heirs, making a rebellion to put some state's ruler as ruler of the other one. A country is not going to just accept your leader as their own, replacing the other, after a few turns of diplomatical relations, not even well described in most cases.

Instigating rebellions is a way to vassalize that I forgot to mention. It is assumed that ambassadors would be sent bringing the bribes (AKA gifts to the government or people) or sending the threats/ultimatums. Royal marriages would fall under Dynastic union (which I don't really understand your complaints about?)  True, for the personal union you need to either marry the existing monarch  or topple them. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:02, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Muscovy

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Muscovy (L), Novogorod (S) (I could be wrong here): 6
 * Military Development: 8
 * Expansion: -3
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 1933
 * UTC Time: 2144
 * Nation Age: Old Nation (+5)
 * Population: 16
 * 6 digits in population
 * 5-10 times larger +10
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Total: 63
 * Total: 63

Rostov

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Rosotv (L): 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit Count: 1933
 * UTC Time: 2144
 * Nation Age: Ancient Nation (-5)
 * Population: 6
 * 5 digits in population
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Total: 32
 * Total: 32

Result
(((63/(32+63))*2)-1) = 32.63%, which is the maximum that can be taken. The war, as of Sept 14th, has lasted 3 years. The Royal Guns (talk) 21:57, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
So, How badly did I screw up? The Royal Guns (talk) 21:57, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, population also takes the number of digist in account. this means that Rostov would have roughly 5, or 6 of population. yours also must be taken into account.judging by your territory, i would say that you have 6 or 7 of population.Rostov's population also must be 5, as you are invading them, and the places where the battles take place are too close to the city of Rostov to be a 4.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 10:12, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Map Issues 1460
Bavaria is united completely, and Wurttemberg is it's vassalAndr3w777 (talk) 01:01, September 15, 2012 (UTC) Austria only conceded Tyrolian independence, not Slovenia's. Also, I thought the rebel Bohemian territory would go back to Bohemia. Furthermore, the situation in the Black sea was resolved, Scan. There is no need to purchase anything, you already have it. Monster Pumpkin (talk) 03:06, September 15, 2012 (UTC) What about my island in the Aegean Sea? --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC) Tyrol demanded it's and Aquelia's independence in return for ending the war. The rebel Bohemian terriotory was actually Austria's but wished to rejoin Bohemia. I'll fix the Black Sea. England will get their island. Scandinator (talk) 07:01, September 15, 2012 (UTC) The Moscow people got all the territory. It was a coalition war(note the same war name).-Lx (leave me a message) 14:25, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

If those Rebels are going to revolt again, then I don't want them. They can go to Bohemia.

As for Aquelia, I made it clear that their independence was not acceptable. I counteracted that request by giving Albert V a high position in government.

Monster Pumpkin (talk) 15:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

@Lx, 50/50 then right?

@Pumpkin, will fix. Scandinator (talk) 16:05, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think there's an issue with the map - when I asked Khandesh and Berar to be vassalised, Berar accepted and Khandesh declined. However it shows Khandesh instead of Berar in my colour. Am I missing something, or is it a mistake? Our Brave Old World (talk) 20:45, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks OBOW! It's fixed. Scandinator (talk) 00:01, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Naval Expansion
So, I've expanded the navy of Chichen Itza for the past 9 years. Considering that it had almost no sailing technology before 1450 and the rapid rate of upgrades, what would my sailing capabilites be? How far could I plausibly hope to sail? CourageousLife (talk) 13:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say rowing boats are your max level of naval tech at the moment. If determined enough you could reach nearby islands but to find them there will be numerous failed expeditions and ones that have to return. Scandinator (talk) 15:58, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I developed sails a couple years back, was that ASB? Nothing as big as Eurasian sails, but still sails. CourageousLife (talk) 16:47, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Sails are fine. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. I'd check prevailing wind patterns in the Gulf to see where the sail boats end up. And the boats would hold only a few people at a time. So you would be unviable for and major colonization or trade for a while, exploring is fine though and I might and an event about a failed expedition... Scandinator (talk) 23:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps a lot! CourageousLife (talk) 23:57, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Bahmani Invasion of Koli
Can a mod do this for me? Thanks.

Aragon

 * Location: 4


 * Tactical Advantage: +1


 * Strength: Aragon (L), Navarre (S), Brandenburg (S), Luxemborug (SV), Pomerania (SV), Austria (S), England (S), Tyrol (SV): 15


 * Military Development: 4


 * Expansion: 0


 * Motive: 3


 * Chance: 6
 * Edit count: 6774
 * Time: 1709
 * 6783/63*pi = 337.796........


 * Nation Age: +5


 * Population: 9


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: -3

Total: 54

Bearn

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2


 * Strength: Bearn (L), France(M), Valois (M): 10


 * Motive: 10


 * Chance: 6


 * Nation Age: +5


 * Population: 6


 * Participation: 10

Total: 54
 * Recent Wars:

Result

Draw. The Aragonese armies are defeated in the harsh mountains.

Labelled maps
What happened to the labelled maps? I need to know what the names of the states around me are... 77topaz (talk) 08:25, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'll post up the ones from 1450. But I'll only update them every 50 years. Scandinator (talk) 09:23, September 16, 2012 (UTC)