Talk:Republic of Superior (1983: Doomsday)

It's the pictures that really make this. Where do they all come from? Benkarnell 22:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Most seem to be circa WWII. Mitro 03:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Population
Don't you think the population of Superior is a bit high? 7 million in this region, which according to this page, would be a hundredth of the world's population? For a nuked region, this is a bit high. --DarthEinstein 02:41, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes that is incredibly high, especially since the OTL population of the region is only 308,319. Even factoring in refugees, there is only so much the area can support.  Mitro 02:44, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand if you believe it is to high, but 300,000?! The area's population was 240,000 when the bombs hit, and it wasn't seriously affected. Therefore, you are saying that 60,000 refugees entered the country during that time. I'll settle for a number between 4 million, but nothing else, or you remove the realism. For one, this included ALL settlements under the control of Superior, not just Territories and States. At the same time, refugees came from everywhere in the Great Lakes region, except the extreme Eastern portion. At the same time, I explained that the country is currently going through a baby boom, in large part due to the restriction, or rather discouragement, of abortion by the Republican Congress. Lahbas 03:07, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so there are 240 000 when the bombs hit. After Doomsday, refugees start arriving, perhaps boosting the population to 600 000? Remember, not all refugees are heading to Superior. Also death rates are higher, so population is slow to increase. Thus a modern population of about 700 000 or 800 000 seems more likely to me. --DarthEinstein 03:33, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how anything below 4 million is unrealistic. For one thing many of the territories controlled by Superior are areas that OTL are lightly populated as well.  Also lets just look at the numbers: in 2009 there is roughly one billion people alive in the post-Doomsday world.  That means 5 out of 6 people who should have been alive today aren't, and that ratio will be even higher in Superior and the rest of Northern Hemisphere.  Even factoring in the light damage, there is still radiation clouds from the west, disease, famine and social disorder that will take a significant percentage of life.  The infant mortality rate will also be high for a long time even if a baby boom happens later.  Refugees themselves might help keep the population level, but they are even more likely to die then Superior citizens, as refugees usually are prone to in history.  Also can the area that Superior control even logically support a population of 7 or even 4 million?  I doubt it.  Mitro 03:43, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it can support that many. Fishing is the main source of food, which does lead to problems with mercury within the blood early on. That is removed by the territories, which serve as the breadbaskets for the Republic, some upon land that is arable, and not heavily affected by any remaining fallout. Also, you have to remember the mindset of the refugees, who would know a lot about the general areas of nuclear placement. Silo's are to the West in unpopulated areas, so that is off limits. East is self-explainitory. South, also a no, because of military installations, oil, space centres, any major industrial sites, etc. So what does that leave? North, toward Canada, where it would be assumed that there the land should be largely untainted. The major result, however, is that many come across the Republic of Superior before-hand. Word spreads that American troops are somewhere in Michigan, a safe haven, the goverment remnent, whatever you want to call it. Anyway, refugees come from the entire Great Lakes Basin, though most from Ohio, Lower Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ontario. Famine is a threat, but was eliminated before it could become realized. Social disorder itself only existed in the refugee camps such as Mackinaw City, and even there until it became organized into a territory and then state (including the emmigration back around the Basin). I agree though that infant mortality rates would be a problem, as medicine would likely have moved back for a while until contact can be made with the outside world. There were about 40 million Americans living in Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio, making 4 million in the Republic of Superior a realistic number, including some matter of growth by itself. If you still disagree, I suggest 3.6 million.

I might suggest 4 million total among Superior, Thunder Bay and Wisconsin as a compromise. I see no problems per se with 4 million in the region listed for Superior; Chicago and New York cities support nearly that many in a much smaller area. --BrianD 04:04, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but if Superiors population could grow so much why didn't other states like Canada or Victoria get such a boost? I find it hard to believe that upper Michigan is 4 times more populated than the entire country of Canada this TL--74.191.76.105 14:38, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

I'm estimating 3 million for Superior. Look at it this way: There are a quarter million people in the Upper Peninsula on Doomsday. Most of the surrounding cities are hit, but the Northern Midwest isn't ultra-urbanized. And people are going to know that there was nothing worth hitting in the Upper Peninsula. That means that you probably get 1 million refugees from the rest of Michigan, and another 1 million from Wisconsin and Minnesota. Most who make it there survive, as the local government starts to fish, ALOT. They know that they can't do that forever, but they can certainly get away with it until they can get some real agriculture going. By 2-3 years in, Superior is more or less a stable country with a growing population. Over the next decade quarter million trickle in from the areas to the south as people move towards lightly populated (and probably lightly hit) Western Canada. The remaining half million is mostly natural population growth.

As for why Canada can't have this large a population... Well, there are two problems. First, Canada is big. People won't migrate all the way from the Plains provinces to find what's left of their government. Most found the NAU first. Second, Canada holds roughly 60% of its population in its largest 15 or so cities, all of which would have been destroyed on Doomsday. Ontario is just GONE, as is Southern Quebec and Vancouver. This means that, at most, 9 million people survive the primary effects of Doomsday. Well over half starve to death that winter, because Canada can't distribute food from where it is grown to where most of the people still are. That leaves 4 million at the outside, most of whom live outside the remainder provinces. The remainder provinces probably end up with 1-1.5 million of them. Saguenay has another 250,000. The NAU winds up holding much of the Plains provinces and another million people. The rest are in survivor communities and Alaskan/ANZC satellite states on the west coast.--Loughery111 18:09, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it hard to believe that Superior can feed a few million people by just fishing the great lakes but Canada can't when it tries to fish the Atlantic Ocean. First off radiation is going to kill off a lot of fish in the Great Lakes and these people who are not used to roughing it are going to die quickly.  Disease will speard throughout the hastily built refugee camps, killing more.  Fights over supplies between refugees and UPers will cause more deaths.  Also there is reason that places like the UP are lightly populated, it is incredibly hard to sustain a large population the farther north you go.  You can do it if you have a large infrastructure like the US does, but post-Doomsday that is gone.  Furthermore the UP is heavily forested, so farming is weak as well.  Finally Superior was hit by a nuclear strike, it might have been small but it still happened.  Mitro 23:28, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Well, Superior and Canada are two different situations. In Superior's case, I believe that its location really does mean that it will have more trouble feeding people than finding them. For Canada, I think there just aren't that many people left alive in close proximity to the Remainder Provinces. They probably could feed the people they had, but let's face it, Ontario and Quebec both got all but blown from the face of the earth, because between them they have two thirds of the population. That means that few survivors are headed east in Canada, whereas I think a good number head north from the rest of the US. Also, as to food, the problem never really is getting enough. Quite a few famines occurred because country lacked the infrastructure to get food from where it was to where it needed to be. Canada, being as huge as it is, would have a problem with this. Superior is much smaller and much more lightly hit. It's infrastructure was smaller, but it would still have transport capability, especially if the local government secured gasoline supplies early on as a necessary public stockpile. I think that, in the short run, it could manage to support 2 million or so people through fishing, hunting, and agriculture. As to the farming problems... I think of it this way: Much of England was never more than marginal for farming, yet the UK around the beginning of the industrial ages held 18 million people and legally prohibited the importation of foodstuffs. If they're willing to cultivate intensively enough, they can feed 3 million even with their tech base. I do know quite a bit about agriculture, and one of the presumptions in talking about how difficult it is to farm in cold weather is that you're trying to create a modern-day standard of living. You can grow food with lower yields and much higher areas under cultivation, and still come up with enough to feed this kind of population. The expertise would be a mixture of local and migrant. This is the Midwest we're dealing with, there are farmers, and they would be among the most likely to survive.--Loughery111 03:36, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Semi-related note, is there anything keeping Superior from occupying good agricultural land in Wisconsin early on? I know the map doesn't reflect that but I can't see any real reason not to expand in that direction early. Overland transport is admittedly more difficult than by water but if they can keep an mechanized army running they can build rail.--Loughery111 03:49, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Motto
The motto of this country looks like it was translated by a bad internet translator. I'm not a Latin expert, but I know that "cinis" and "cineris" are the same word, and "orior oriri ortus" is definitely not a first person plural present verb, as they all end in -mus. --DarthEinstein 03:37, September 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Proposed orginasation by the National Republican Party, who is a major supporter of CRUSA. The proposal I plan on being put forth and passed by the Superian Congress, whereafter nations that make up the former United States meet to draft a League constitution. It will be of a similar structure to the European Union, but this is something that will be developed over a LONG time. Lahbas 18:42, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking that due to huge geographic distances and the generation that has grown only hearing stories about the old US of A, this would gain little traction with most of the survivors. Still, Superior is welcome to try. --DarthEinstein 20:49, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Space Program

 * Decided to add in a very meagre space program using both a native base and (for a time) the spaceport in French Guinea. Lahbas 03:09, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Population
What is with the 300k rise in the population for Superior? Mitro 03:09, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't sure of the amount. I did this because, according to the contamination maps, Superior was not hit relatively hard, and even then the wind was for the most part dead, being in the middle of gusts blowing to the West from the West, and the East from the East. I just wasn't sure what to do. Plus you know how I am with this country's population. :) Lahbas 03:20, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

hj
 * I realize you think Superior's population should be higher and I you know I respectfully, but completely, disagree with you. I think we should try settling this once and for all so I am going to leave a message on the main talk page and see what the group thinks.  Mitro 15:23, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

2 things
1st. why does the seal of superior shown as obvere as US seal on main page. 2nd. how could a post DD natiuon devolp hydrogen cars? there justc oming into servcice OTL!?!--HAD 11:00, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

1 when the RoS was formed the government and people wanted to keep some sense of the USA in the new nation

2 the oil boom led to new economic capabilities and the government has a commitment to enviromentally friendle sources of fuelOwen1983 16:49, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

okay, but its just a white disk. it looks silly, in my oinion. also, hydrogen cars are just as safe as normal cars, just a damsite more expensive. HAD 20:04, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Refurbishment
I am not sure when I am ever going to get around to doing this, but it is important I believe due to recent developments. With the realization that the population of Ontario would not suffer as nearly as much damage as originally thought and I must come to the following conclusions:

1) The Republic of Superior would be larger, encompassing additional populated areas around Ontario, which would be states, having made entrance even before Mackinaw (Controversial, yes, I know, but considering that communications would likely have been lost with the Canadian Remainder Provinces, and the Republic of Superior at least having a small military capacity [dealing with the raiders likely attacking from the St. Lawrence Valley], they might have joined. This brings up further points of discussion however.

1a) The political situation in Superior would be radically altered, included remnant parties from the old Canadian Parliamentary system, a less Americo-Centric way of thinking, and a more neutral stance in world affairs. This includes failure to involve itself militarily in the Saguenay War (though possibly the Republican Guard would have, being under the direction of the President) due to divided public opinion on who to support.

1b) Ontario likely would have been divided into five to eight separate states, so as to prevent a disruption of power during Presidential elections (If the electoral system was still to be used is up for debate), and grant it additional power in the Senate.

1c) When would they have joined with Superior? In my mind, they would have begun as a Commonwealth, while maintaining relative independence, and then became separate states by the late 1980’s.

1d) Would they have sought secession and the ability to rejoin Canada by the turn of the Millennia? Again, this is up to debate. Of course, a significant portion of the population would support such a measure. But a majority? Unlikely. The reason for this is that the new generations that are coming to power have been citizens of the Republic of Superior, and would feel a stronger loyalty to it than to Canada. At the same time, secession in the Western, more American states would be viewed as an illegal act. At the same time, there still would not be any direct, easily accessible line of communication between these areas and St. John, so until such a time, the point would be moot.

Now, on to other things:

2) The Republican Guard will be renamed the Wolverines (I feel better with that name anyway)

That is all I have right now. Lahbas 13:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the Canadian states would likely be independent. I don't think Upper Peninsula Michigan has any greater advantages over western Ontario that they would join Superior as states. Though I would not give up on some sort of political union/confederation like the NAU.


 * As for changing the Republican Guard to the Wolverines...have you been watching Red Dawn recently ;-) Mitro 14:03, April 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * That was why I did not suggest that they join immediately. At the same time, I think they would benefit more as a type of Union then as two independent nations, which is why the political situation right now is hard for me to determine. And yes, I got the idea from Red Dawn, but you have to admit the name itself is better than the Republican Guard. I feel bad, though, because that page was supposed to have so much more information in it, and it never got past the initial stages. Well, it isn't exactly integral though. Anyway, we need to figure out exactly the nature of Ontario before we can accurately determine what may or may not happen. Lahbas 15:25, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * IMHO, I like the Republican Guard as a name, but maybe you can have both. Their official name is the RG but their nickname are the Wolverines. Mitro 15:33, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Canadian areas would remain independent. Sault St Marie due to its proximity would likely join Superior early on but the Southern Ontario areas in Barrie, London, Midland, etc. would have been long established by the time Superior gets to them. Canadians put a lot of pride in the fact that they aren't Americans. So joining an American survivor nation wouldn't be incredibly likely.Oerwinde 07:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I use to live in Southern Ontario, I know the area rather well. With Toronto Ottawa, Windsor (near Detroit) and North Bay being hit I would think that communities of survivors would pop up in London, Barrie, Midland, Collingwood, Belleville, Trenton, Brampton, Ajax, Oshawa, Guelph, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, Goderich, Own Sound, Orilla, Parry Sound, Huntsvile, St. Thomas, Peterbrough, Kingston (maybe) & in many other areas. The whole area out side of Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor (near Detroit) and North Bay would be largely unaffected. With your respective blessings I would love to help in any way I can with the area that pertains to Southern Ontario. GOPZACK 22:54, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Lost States
There's a blog called Lost States and apparently a book of the same name. Today's post was on the "lost state" of Superior. http://loststates.blogspot.com/2010/04/superior-review.html BrianD 02:57, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Question
Why was the section "There are plans to establish a guarded road to Aroostook by way of Riker, but the costs are enormous, and the road would not be finished until sometime in 2011. Even then, there would have to be a large guard to prevent raids by rogue elements." removed? --GOPZACK 03:56, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally that line doesn't make sense. Aroostook has bad relations with Superior since information was leaked that Superior was arming the Lawrence Raiders in the war. Mitro 18:24, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Review?
What specifically is under review in regards to Superior? --BrianD 16:19, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Its Canadian territories and the history regarding them are the most part. A while back we realized that southern Ontario wasn't the devastated wasteland the article assumed it to be, and would be heavily populated (relatively speaking) and would likely have its own survivor states considering its the location of the majority of the good agricultural land in Ontario. Superior annexing the cannibal infested wasteland didn't make any sense once this was realized. Its needed revision for a while, Someone got around to removing the cannibal reference, but the territory in the map and the lack of encountering said survivor states while settling their territory is what needs to be addressed.Oerwinde 17:11, September 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * In all fairness to Superior, this is a long standing canon article and we are talking about massive changes to it. While its assumptions on Ontario might be implausible, we should not rewrite most of this article to allow people to create new survivor states. Consider the fact that even with the best circumstances, humans could still make bad decisions. There might not be any survivor states in the region because incompetent leadership and infighting led to their collapse, allowing Superior to move into the region. Mitro 21:21, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the exact reason that California was put under review. Because it came after an older article and claimed the older article's lands. Except now we have a bunch of smaller communities claiming lands that have been part of a nation that has been canon for over a year or two now. This is by far the most extensive article in North America, and next to Macedonia and Turkey it is the third most extensive nation state article (including sub-articles) in the TL. I just feel kind of upset because when the California-Nevada dispute happened everyone was stating the older article gets the right and now you guys are putting it up for review simply to let a nation made by Zack to remain canon. Arstar [talk] 22:10, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the exact reason that California was put under review. Because it came after an older article and claimed the older article's lands. Except now we have a bunch of smaller communities claiming lands that have been part of a nation that has been canon for over a year or two now. This is by far the most extensive article in North America, and next to Macedonia and Turkey it is the third most extensive nation state article (including sub-articles) in the TL. I just feel kind of upset because when the California-Nevada dispute happened everyone was stating the older article gets the right and now you guys are putting it up for review simply to let a nation made by Zack to remain canon. Arstar [talk] 22:10, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Horrid examples, as both have major flaws with them still.

Much of the Superior article is based on an inaccurate assumption that Ontario around the Great Lakes was almost completely depopulated. Yet, we all acknowledge that this was not the case, so something must be done about it.

This is the problem here, and Midland has little to do with it at all.

Lordganon 22:37, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Right you are Lordganon. I can assure all that this is not grand scheme to keep Midland in canon but something we all knew was coming down the road and had to be dealt with. I'm glad Oerwinde has stepped up and got the ball rolling. --GOPZACK 22:46, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

If we are changing some of this, could we add some text about the Republic Of Indiana, I've been trying to pass that for a while. We should also add something about Toledo, simply an ideal.---Sunkist- 03:17, September 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Guys we are not just changing one article by reviewing Superior, we are changing probably a dozen. Maybe Superior was unrealistic in its assumption about Ontario, but canon for so many article should not be massively changed.  Maybe the Canadian survivor communities opted to join Superior.  Maybe there were more strikes in Canada than we at first realized.  All of these are IMO better reasons than simply removing Superior altogether from southern Ontario.  Mitro 22:26, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Just add a few references to correct the situation in Ontario. Other than that, I see nothing wrong with this article. And Mitro is right, any drastic changes would required changing most of the articles about nations in the American Midwest and eastern Canada. Don't make an excessive amount of work for yourselves and massive headaches for others. Caeruleus 00:55, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Not really, guys. It wouldn't actually be that much work, all things considered - far less articles than that would need editing.

The population/area/territory on the map need to be edited - as well as some of the language used to referred to Southern Ontario - but other than that, only adjustments to the war itself and a mention of the survivor states in Ontario - and the discussed vestiges of Canadian authority around Kingston - only really have to be added to this.

Other than that, the war, saq~, St. Lawrence, and Canada articles need editing. Canada needs the states mentioned as well, with the Kingston part added too. The War is being edited already for this, so that's ok. Edits to the other two articles would be minor.

Really, the only two other places I can think of where a strike could have occurred are London and Hamilton - Hamilton doesn't change anything (though given all the steel mills it should have been hit), given the situation in Toronto (which should really have been hit more than once), and London gets a bye because of the already canonized article and lack of a reason to hit it.

Lordganon 00:57, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

All the target lists I've seen have never showed Hamilton or London as possible targets, but that's just what I've seen. --ZACK 01:04, September 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's more work than you're letting on. There's no reason the population/area/territory need to be changed. Referrences to Ontario need to be changed, but that's relatively easy. Once you start adding strikes, changing key facts about Superior, and changing wars, you'll have to change every reference and map of Superior in every article because it will no longer apply (in the Toledo article for example). Not to mention the major changes to the Canada articles. Let's just go with Mitro's suggesting that survivor communities chose to join Superior and large states failed to form in Ontario due to incompetent leadership and infighting. Caeruleus 01:07, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Actually its not that much.

If removing any territory from Superior, all three of those have to be adjusted. Easy.

Like I said, London would not have been hit. Though I don't get why Hamilton would not have been, given the steel industry there - it's called the steel capital of Canada for a reason ;)

It is all minor edits to these articles and maps. We don't need to add any strikes to anything.

Very little needs to be changed about Superior at all:


 * a slight adjustment on the map of territory on Georgian Bay
 * mentioning the survivor states in Ontario
 * improving the language used to refer to Ontario

Really, it means adding things, not taking them away.

As far as I have ever seen, outside of the Superior article itself, and a glace on the Thunder Bay and Canada pages, nothing is really mentioned about Ontario. And outside of Superior, the situation there is up to the imagination.

No mention of superior in any of the area articles makes mention of their control of Ontario, or even the situation there, so there is no editing needed. As a matter of fact, the maps on those articles are still being edited in relation to other disputes, and removing a smudge of territory wouldn't be hard to do.

Changing the war has long been discussed as being something we have to do. It just hasn't been done yet. Read the War and Canada talk pages for more.

No changes to the Canada article itself are really needed, outside of taking out the line about areas where chaos reigns (heck, that line has already been invalidated by work in BC, let alone Ontario). Like Superior, it is mostly things needing to be added, not removed. You can also look at the discussions on the War talk page and the Canada talk page for how the situation in Ontario should play out.

A few lines do need to be added to the history of Canada, adding some sort of presence in Ontario and contact with Superior.

The History of Superior needs to have the eastern explorers finding these states, and mentions of the situation in Ontario need to be edited slightly to show reality. No mention of contact with the Canadian government actually exists, and it is known that the St.Lawrence Raiders prevented contact between St.Johns and Ontario by the late 1980s.

As a matter of fact, looking at that history, the raiders told of the Saq~ state - but not Canada, which they would have known of too. That makes no sense.

Really, to have no states - even city-states like Thunder Bay - emerging in Ontario makes no sense. Neither does the Canadian government, fleeing through Kingston eastward, not leaving some sort of authority in the region. Given all of the non-irradiated farmland in southern Ontario, it makes no sense for no city/nation-states to be there.

Surviving communities around the western Great Lakes would join up - they are small and insignificant, needing outside resources to survive. But the larger cities which survived would not have. Contrary to what you guys may think, Canadians do have nationalism, and would not join up with an American nation so willingly.

Really, the only reduction in Superior territory would be a removal of most of their territory around Georgian Bay, in the vicinity of Simcoe County. Minor at best.

All other edits are inaccuracies - and not very believable ones at that, all things considered. They need to be fixed.

I don't think its that much work at all - you guys just don't want to do it. Heck, I'll fix them if you guys are unwilling to do it yourselves.

Lordganon 02:18, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I like Lordganon's suggestion. The contention here stems from the original TL's assumption that wide swaths of North America remained radioactive ruin. In THIS TL, survivor states in Ontario to me make as much sense as anything else. The tricky thing is going to be explaining why those states haven't (yet) reunited with Canada, but the Superior part should be able to be explained with little changes to canon. --BrianD 02:42, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Knock yourself out, LG. I'm going to start making changes and whatever I forget feel free to FIY. But the map is harder to edit than it looks without making it look ugly, because Lahbas made it an damn .svg file! Arstar [talk] 02:56, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

You guys wanna help me out? The only thing I ask of all of you is to make a list of the territories that would be implausible for Superior to control. Arstar [talk] 02:56, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much the areas I've shaded in Teal, at least for Southern Ontario. The rest of it makes sense for Superior to occupy. --Zack 03:04, September 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Many of these issues could have been avoided if editors read the Superior articles first before creating new articles. I admit I should share some of the blame because no doubt I had a part in creating these inconsistencies, but to late now.  I don't want to start marking people's work as obsolete, so the only thing I can do is hopefully be a part of the group that comes up with the compromise.


 * Actually I support a revision of Superior's population. I always thought it was to high for the region so revising that would not be a problem for me.  Also I think we should take a look at the Canadian target list again.  I always felt that to many targets might have been missed, but I do not know enough about Canada to begin saying what else should have been nuked.  By the way LG, you say at one point that London could have been hit, but than shortly thereafter retracted the statement, why is that?


 * The fact that Canada has not reunified by a greater extent is not difficult to believe. Besides being slowed down by Saguenay and the Lawrence Raiders, there could be any other reasons to explain the slowness.  Maybe those eastern provinces don't have the resources to unite the country.  Maybe the leaders of Canada are not respected or even liked by the leaders of the western survivor communities/nations.


 * That brings me to my next point: I'm worried by the attitude in this TL that just because a place was not nuked, that means it would thrive and become a prosperous and enlightened nations. We have to many champions in this TL and not enough losers, something that does not make sense considering our OTL history.  So Ontario seems to be a great place to carve up some survivor states, that still is no guarantee they will be there.  Read Dies the Fire and its sequels, Stirling details a rural "survivor community" that was better off than most of its neighbors in terms of food and other supplies, but still collapsed due to humans acting like humans.  Not only that but things like disease and famine are also rarely factors used in many articles.


 * Also while I agree there is such a thing as Canadian nationalism, I can't help but look at the world map and see the three Canadian nations with American territory under their control. Canadian nationalism might exist, but not American nationalism apparently.  I'm not saying those articles should be altered as well, I only use them as an example to prove my point that Superior's presence in Canada is not that hard to believe.  Actually considering the similarities between American/Canadian culture, our shared history and long friendship, American and Canadians survivors are more likely to work together post-dd than many other nations.


 * Finally I have another plea to respect canon. Superior and its sub articles have long been canon.  Info on Saguenay War, though only recently finished, has long since been assumed by many articles.  I don't share LG's belief that the affect on other articles will be minimal.  These are both old canon articles, a lot of edits are going to happen to a lot of articles, including the news archives.  That being said, even if there are some implausibilities, any changes made should be as minor as possible.  In fact the newer canon articles should be the first to change before the older canon articles change.  That is what QSS and QAA is supposed to prevent from happening.  Mitro 03:58, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well this should be fun. And, for the record, there's no reason why Superior can't control all the territory it currently controls. Caeruleus 04:40, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I'm the caretaker and I think it should control less. Arstar [talk] 04:55, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

What I said was that besides the nuked cities in Ontario, and the city of Hamilton, London is the only very large city left in the area, meaning it is the only target left, but there really isn't much of anything there worth hitting as far as I know - most people there work with agriculture, medicine, education, or other food industries.

I agree with Zack on the territory. That's more or less what I was saying. Pretty much anywhere in those zones there would be survivor states of some sort. But this would also mean a reduction in the population size as well. I would make it slightly less in the far south, closest to Detroit, as well.

Three? Should only be Victoria and Assiniboia - what would be a third? Besides, there is also three American states with Canadian territory already - Arastok~, International Falls, and Superior.

This really isn't about the newer canon articles, in the end. It's about the inaccuracies in Superior that shouldn't be there being fixed.

With what has been discussed on the other talk pages, I believe a Canadian outpost of some sort in Kingston would be likely - why would they abandon the area completely, when it survived the immediate chaos of Doomsday? With much of the St. Lawrence river valley destroyed in some way, it would only have intermittent land contact with St. Johns - and the increase in raider activity would kill that off. Superior would hear of the surviving Canadian government through the remnant government here, but only get confirmation of its survival from the raiders later on.

As a matter of fact, I have read those books by Stirling - and the events there are far worse than anything here. Losing anything above the medieval era - and losing gunpowder too - will do that to you. With all the info I've read about that in the past, 90%+ die there - but I think we can all agree its not quite that bad here.

With Superior involvement in the war, there should be a nice large swath of largely abandoned territory between Sudbury and Midland, centered by the remains of North Bay. This would be the territory their explorers would go through in order to explore points eastward for contact with the outside, eventually leading to the contact with Arastok~

As for why they haven't reunited, the chaos in the river valley, and the raiders there, would cover it, along with the wilderness of Northern Ontario between the Lakes and the Bay. We can even say that the raiders have been supported by Superior since contact to get the southern Ontario nations to go along with them.

As for territories, these ones would not be part of Superior:


 * Muskoka
 * I have no idea where Weston is - all sites in the area with that name are far outside Superior territory
 * Nipissing

Also, looking at the capitals - many of these places don't seem to exist - I have to wonder where they are from. Those really should be changed too.

As for strikes in Canada, I really only have 3 issues:


 * Both Toronto and Montreal would have been hit by more than one strike.
 * Hamilton should have been hit too.
 * Edmonton would have been hit - but given the size of the city, and the size of the Edmonton Garrison on the northern edge, to adequately take out both would have either needed a big nuke - or hits on both.

Thank you, Arstar. I must also apologize for my earlier reaction to that comment - but it was highly insulting, though some would have not cared a lick.

If you guys will let me, I'll go between the Superior, Canada, Ontario (and others if needed) articles and fix things up. Not like I have anything better to do atm (sigh......)

P.S.

Mitro, please uses spaces between paragraphs, lol. Was a touch hard to get all that.

Lordganon 09:55, September 29, 2010 (UTC)