Talk:Imperial Europe (Map Game)

BTW, if we don't get enough players, does anyone have a problem with sock-puppetting? We'd all get an equal ammount of pawns...Michael Douglas 00:31, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that, if its kept reasonable, but let's try to get more players first. Flaradonia 00:33, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

May I make the starting map? I have particular knowledge of Europe's exact political situation at about 1400 and some experience in creating maps for map games.--Emperor of Trebizond 00:48, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys qrfbsca is in the house Qrfbsca 16:49, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I found this map of the eastern hemisphere in 1400. However, I don't think it will work for the main map. Oh, and also, it only has "Holy Roman Empire" in the territory of the HRE, which in fact was hundreds of nations. Fedelede 21:18, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ok. If we get the main map up, we should be able to get started in a bit. 24.36.110.61 21:35, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I have a question: Will the map be only Europe or will it include the Middle East (known by Europeans) too? Fedelede 21:41, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

It will be both. I'm working on one that was inspired by your Renaissance map. --Emperor of Trebizond 21:44, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

You mean the European Renaissance Map Game? I only corrected some frontiers on that one. Fedelede 21:58, October 13, 2010 (UTC) Here is the map:



Grey represents minor or other nations. Sorry, but an unusual problem occurred with my paint program before I could label all of the nations. Here is a list of unlabelled nations:


 * Empire of Trebizond
 * Kingdom of Naples
 * Kingdom of Sicily
 * Arborea (in Sardinia)
 * Knights of St. John (in Rhodes)
 * Emirate of Karaman (in Southern Anatolia)
 * Kingdom of Cyprus
 * Byzantine Empire
 * Granada
 * Republic of Novogrod
 * Kalmar Union

If someone would be kind enough to help me by properly labeling them, I would be most grateful.

P.S.: If you signed up for a nation not on the map, my sincere apologies.--Emperor of Trebizond 23:18, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't Iceland part of the KU? Also, the French kingdoms that I had put up were all quite independent of France proper. Also, it would be more realistic if the HRE is divided into its various member states, as I doubt they would be able to be united into a single cohesive nation, even by force. BoredMatt 00:04, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

I was planning to elaborate more on that like introducing Saxony and Holland and many of those independent German states, but I had to stop where I was because my paint program had a really unusual error of some sort.

It closed unexpectedly just after I saved the current map, and it won't let me open it again.--Emperor of Trebizond 00:11, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

I've added some more states, but all the credible maps that I could find online didn't have much on the southern and central HRE, which is conviently enough the one area of history which I don't know about. BoredMatt 00:47, October 14, 2010 (UTC)



May somebody please add the Jalayirids? My pixlr blocked. The Jalayirids are in Mesopotamia. Fedelede 12:38, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lets get this thing started! We almost have enough people, if you want ask some more to join. The first turn begins on Oct 16th.Michael Douglas 20:50, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

BoredMatt, the quality of your image is not up to standards. Do you think you could make it better quality so we can actually read the labels of the German states?--Emperor of Trebizond 23:58, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

I have this new map, which has more nations on some parts and some corrected names and boundaries but doesn't have some of BoredMatt's French and German states. Fedelede 02:27, October 16, 2010 (UTC)



meone has commented on my post about Scotland invading Iceland/Orkney/Shetland/Faroes by saying that Scotland was in union with the KU at that time, as far as I know the only major alliance that Scotland had at that time was with France (the Auld Alliance) + in the new map Orkney and Shetland are part of Scotland,which is false Yours truly. Qrfbsca 07:19, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Qrfbsca, the Orkney and Shetland islands were Norwegian at the time until 1468 and 1469, respectively. Fedelede 12:31, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Burgundy's lands weren't connected. Their territories in France were separated from their lands in the Netherlands by the Duchy of Lorraine and France.

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1400/entity_2515.html

Wow... thats a find... just did a google image search. Has all sorts of HRE states and such too...Oerwinde 08:17, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I confused "Burgundian sphere of influence" with Burgundy proper. thanks for pointing that out, Oerwinde.

As for the hundreds upon hundreds of states that composed the Holy Roman Empire, I only put the most important ones. The rest recieve the name of "Small States". Fedelede 12:28, October 16, 2010 (UTC)



I finally solved the problem I was having with paint and labeled the unlabeled nations.--Emperor of Trebizond 14:12, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

So, have we started the game already? Fedelede 15:44, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

The Crimean Khanate didn't exist. It was called the Golden Horde. Fedelede 16:23, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * This map is in JPG format. That isn't that handy when it comes to changing borders. I suggest we make a PNG map. SjorskingmaWikistad 07:26, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Turns
How long does a turn take? The rules say one day. Does that mean that we go a year further every day, or only when everyone has had his or her turn? Because we are already started for two days, so we should go to the next year. SjorskingmaWikistad 10:52, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was a turn a day, otherwise the game might get a bit stagnant. Still, seing as it just started, I'd prefer that we let everyone take a turn for the first few turns. Later, nations are going to start to be eliminated by warfare, so we can expect the more dedicated players to stick with it. Michael Douglas 21:10, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I checked the rules and it says 1 day per turn, so we should start the next turn, we're begining to look inactive.Michael Douglas 20:03, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Yea. I think everybody who is going to be contributing regularly to this has gone; all the other people that joined but haven't posted haven't been active at all for a while. BoredMatt 20:13, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

I'm here. I won't be active tomorrow or Sunday, though. It is a shame. When can we discover America?CrimsonAssassin 13:39, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Negotiation Page
Enjoy!

May I play as a diffrent nation now that Navarre has been conqured?? I would like to to now become the White Sheep Turks instead of a defeated nation with no other choices. Duchland 23:47, October 19, 2010 (UTC)Duchland

The White Sheep have already been conquered too. What about if you try Castille? Fedelede 23:48, October 19, 2010 (UTC)

Novogorod is open as well if you want it, might be a better choicce than Spain. BoredMatt 00:11, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

New Players
I think we should encourage new player to join. Right now, the only active nations (sorry if I mised you but I don't think I missed anyone) are Brittany, the KU, Scotland and the Crimean Empire. The KU and Scotland are allies, Brittany, Scotland and Aragon are allies, and Aragon has economic ties ot the KU and Crimea. The KU may be building new ties to Crimea. Not only this mean that everybody if friendly (Utopia! Its a Utopia!) but it is a small player base. There are plenty of new nations, so I think we should invite some new people to join. Do you think we should do this, and when do we stop accepting new players? If they drop out later, at least they stirred things up a tiny bit. Michael Douglas 02:11, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Venice
I want to discuss some of my ideas for Venice. I want to know something. Is anyone still using the various Italian states? I have the idea of Venice eventally furfilling the goal of uniting the Italian peninsula. I also planned on their colony of Nuova Venezia to eventually assume control over most of the territory of the OTL New Spain colony. Yank 06:21, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Would you be opposed to an alliance with Scotland Qrfbsca 16:24, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Venice probably needs some expansion back in Europe if it wants to expand majorly in the Americas. Might I suggest a dynastic union with Naples, and perhaps a war of conquest against Florence? This would go far towards creating a united italy. Michael Douglas 22:26, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

I might consider an alliance to Scotland. We should have an agreement to the division of OTL Mexico. Scotland gets the Yucatan (plus anthing south of it), I get the rest. I was planning to expand in Europe. I was planning to annex the territory on the east coast of the Balkan Peninsula that is uncontrolled by any of the major players. Eventually I wanted to seize the Byzantine Empire's territory in Greece. I have also been eying Bosnia and parts of Hungary. I could have a war with Florence after some perceived slight, but I cannot have a dynastic union with Naples. Let me remind you that by Italian definitions of the day, Venice was a Republic. The Doge was more of a President or Prime Minister than a King.

Yank 18:28, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

My nation is at your service, but could you aid with our colonisation of africa and India. Qrfbsca 11:56, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible to recruit you as an ally in my recent (and very much unintended) war with Aragon and the Ottomons? I already said I was going to annex Byzantine Greece, but no one listened to me. The fact that 1000Monkeys and Mr Douglas both ignored that announcement does not bode well for their intelligence.

Yank 21:38, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

I never saw the post, I didn't declare war on you, I requested an alliance with the Ottomans and they did. I do object to you seizing the Byzantine territory, but I wasn't going to do anything about it. They actually declared war while I was asleep, I posted the alliance proposal early because I wouldn't be able to post later.

Qrfbsca, you have an alliance with Aragon, I'm not going to pressure you into joining the war, but don't join Venice please. This war should never have started anyway, and if you join the KU joins, and everything will get all screwed up.

Also Yank why are you talking about our intelligence? I noticed the post but didn't do anything. I don't know about 1000monkeys, but not noticing something doesn't mean your stupid. You are way to quick to anger and way to easy to piss off. Its a game. The real issue is your expansion, and the fact that the Ottomans where friendly with the Byzantines back when they where active. It strikes me as odd that you are taking this so personally. Michael Douglas 23:38, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

And now he's declaring war on me because I won't give him a third of my territory. As they say, everything is bigger in Briton Texas, so he'd better watch out.

All I really wanted was your portion of New Mexico and a small portion of Texas. As I said before I gave you control of how much you wanted. I gave you the option of chosing the Pecos river as a border, which only included a small portion of Texas.

Yank 20:15, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I am very intent on keeping my colonies. There's plenty of land in Mexico left and there's plenty of land other than North America, by the way. Get out there and explore.

Fine. All I want then is for you to recognize Nuova Grecia.

Yank 20:30, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

I'll recognize Nuova Grecia, when Venice and Brittany agree.

Also Yank, we're technically at war again, because of my alliance with Brittany...but this dispute is really between them and you, so I won't do anything unless either of you starts posting that you took over everything for miles around. Try to end this peacefully, please, both of you? My economy is already in bad shape. Michael Douglas 22:14, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Aztec Empire
What I think happens is that the Empire collapses into chaos and infighting after visitors from Europe bring deadly diseases. These diseases may have been intentionally spread by the Venetians to help the spread of their colony, like how English colonists gave Smallpox-infected blankets to the local Natives.

Yank 21:09, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Aztecs are deep within south america. Do you mean Mayans, who are closser to Neuva Venice? If so, Scotland and Aragon wil probably take a piece of the pie. Scotland has a bit of territory on the Yucatan peninsula, and Aragon took Panama. Venice could take most of it, seing as they are more prepared, but the other countries would likely take a piece of the pie.Michael Douglas 22:29, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

I 'm guessing the history of the pre-Columbian Americas isn't your area of expertise? None of that statement is correct. It was the Incan civilization that was in South America (specifically Peru), not the Aztecs. There are three distinct regions of Mexico: Northern Mexico, Central Mexico and Southern Mexico. The Aztecs were mostly in Central Mexico, but they had a small enclave at the base of the Yucatan. Which is far from Scotland's territory so far. And the Colony's name is Nuova Venexia.

Yank 17:46, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ya, my areas of expertise (well, relatively( is WWI and the 1400s, not the Pre-Columbian Americas (although that may change in the future, I'm kind of interested in creating a timeline in which the Maya priests didn't suppress technology, leading to their technological supperiority over the Spanish, and they become almost the Roman Empire of the Americas, but back to the point) is it really such a big deal that I got the names wrong, its not like I used the mistake in a post, just I mixed the two up in the discussion. I'm glad that I was corrected, and that new nations are being added. Michael Douglas 02:56, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

Ottomans
Ok, first of all the user who is controling the ottomans declare the mamluks going to civil war, he can't do that, the mamluks are my country, second, why he invaded the Kingdom of Jerusalem, as the Mamluks renamed after transform into christianity if both are christians in the game? VENEZUELA 22:02, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea what is going on here...I left this morning and suddenly I'm at war with Venice. I didn't think the Malmuks were active, forgot that they where christian, sorry for helping the Ottomans invading Jerusalem thenMichael Douglas 23:31, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

If you try to help foster a truce in the current war I'll se what I can do about getting your territories back.Michael Douglas 23:47, November 21, 2010 (UTC)

The War is OVER
Whoever made the post about the sides during the war, please note that the war is over. And besides, I had no idea that the Mamluks were Christian. If I can get everyone's word on this, I will stop the crusade immediately. BUT PLEASE REMEMBER: THE WAR IN VENICE IS OVER.

Thanks!

Awwwwwwwwww but it was about to get fun Qrfbsca 16:13, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry Qrfbsca, we can always subjugate Ethiopia, now that it's so hostile.

Not rearly, demanding to be recognized as soverign of Ethiopia (which is his country anyway) is not rearly that hostile Vegas adict 21:53, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Just kidding Vegas. I recognie Ethiopia anyway. Michael Douglas 15:34, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Map
Haha.....sorry CA, I deleted the map, not Yank. could you add Ku's control of Palawan, Sulu, and the mainland part of Malaysia to the map? And the sale of Virginia hasn't gon through yet. Wait one more hour. BoredMatt 20:22, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Let me remind everyone that Venice's colonies have expanded to roughly New Mexico and Arizona. While I am willing to let one half of New Mexico stay in Briton hands, that is all I am willing to take.

Yank 21:33, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that Brittany's colonies seem to be more to the north of Venice's. I'd think that Brittany probably would take northern NM and Az, and Venice the southern half. It is oversimplified, but both of you keeep arguing using the same exact point in support of both your cases, that is, plausibility (which is a very vague statement, to be honest). Geography does come into play here, and Brittany has a better advantage taking the northern part by following what would be Route 84 into NM and heading up and then around the southern Rockies through one of the innumerable E-W passes of the Great Basin. Due to them wanting to encapsulate the Venitians through driving straight to the Pacific, I'd say this is the most plausible option. BoredMatt 21:49, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm doing on the map. It's a compromise. I hope he'll be okay with it.

I'm perfectly fine with it. I wish I could have gained San Fran Bay, but it was not to be.

Yank 15:45, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

"Serpent" liscences!?
Why on earth did Brittany start making Muslim citizens to have a liscence to practice their religion? This move stinks of the special passorts South Africa gave blacks during Apartheid, or even (god forbid) the yellow stars the Nazis forced Jews to wear before the Holocaust. Does CrimsonAssassin want their Muslim population to start fleeing their country in droves?

Yank 15:54, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Just saying, but it's far better than outright prosecution and killing that goes on in many European realms at this point. It's technically quite progressive for this time period. Also, Brittany (being Brittany) doesn't really have that many muslims. Not that I don't think it's immoral, but you can't expect a nation in 1433 AD to give complete freedom of religion and actually enforce it enough so that it's more than just am empty gesture. I don't know if CA really thought about this that much, but it also has some quite positive effects (from an objective point of veiw). If all openly practicing Muslims are required to have some sort of special ID on hand, then those people with the ID are going to be hunted down and strung up in the streets by some more reactionary followers of Christ. Thus, (nominal) conversion to Christianity becomes a very viable option for Muslims, and more faithful worshippers would at least keep their prectice to themselves and not cause any trouble. The Muslims would support the Briton's nominal support of religious freedom, while the clergy and/or the Inquisition would have a constant crop of rather unintelligent followers of Islam to execute (thus satisfying the more radical of the clergy). BoredMatt 20:05, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

The fact is that any catholic nation in Europe around this time period would have invaded Ethiopia and the Crimean Empire just for being muslim. The muslims would have attacked europe too. Your right about how its immoral, but really, its the 1430s. People didn't even start to seriously consider tolerance until at least the 1800s. Whats happening in Brittany is monstrous by todays standards, but it is completely plausible, and better then whats happening in the rest of Europe. BTW, in Venice the muslims and christians are probably killing each other in the streets, the rest of Europe hates you, and the pope is going to excommunicate you...good thing we aren't really that plausible, or it wouldn't be fun, it would just be a repeat of history. 24.36.110.61 22:12, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

That's the point. The map game isn't history! So why are we acting like it is? As you said, it wouldn't really be a game that way. Events that occur in our countries happen only if the controlling User wants them to. And as far as I'm concerned Muslims and Christians live in relative peace (At least in Venice). Even if the Pope would excommunicate us (which is unlikely, as no user has chosen the Papal States yet) I wouldn't let that get in my way. I'd take a page from Henry VIII's book and seperate from the Roman Catholic Church. I might even puppet the Papal States to do just that. It'd remove a foreign power's influence on my nation.

Yank 23:20, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, lemme get a word in here! First off, I felt generous giving Muslims freedom. It gives our tiny muslim population more leeway than most others. However, something made me mad and I took it away. Practicing Islam is now punishable by imprisonment. Secondly, why is Islam still big? WE DESTROYED MECCA and that would cause schisms and loss of faith among Muslims. Lastly, you'd better not change the Catholic bible.

CrimsonAssassin 00:58, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Naturally. The interpretation may be different, but the book itself stays the same.

Yank 01:42, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Are you keeping it in Latin or translating it to Italian? BoredMatt 01:43, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Probably going to translate it into Italian, but only for the express purpose of making the words of God more easily acessed by the populace. It's only logical. What is the point of keep religious services and texts in a language that has been dead for about a thousand years? I find the prospect of anyone finding God when the priest is effectively droning gibberish highly unlikely. But the text of the Bible is as intact as possible, given a certain margin for errors in the translation.

Yank 01:51, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Since the Great Schism happened in 1054, then shouldn't the Ottomons be Eastern Orthodox instead of Roman Catholic? After all, if they were such good friends wtith the Byzantines it stands to reason that they would adopt their religion.

Yank 00:06, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Its really a question of historical innertia. Around the time of Venice's heresy, people like Martin Luther where preparing to do it anyway. It just started in italy instead of Germany or England. Also, it happened to snatch our pope, but whatever.

If we want to redirect how these things are happening, grant people rights, then it has to be over a period of a few years. I mean, look at how plausible we are already. Ironclads in 1435! Almost all of North America colonized in almost 30 years, despite the fact that it took hundreds of years OTL to do that! I don't have a problem with what you do with your own countries to much, but for me the game is much more enjoyable when its more plausible. You may dissagree, but because of how Aragon would have really reacted, I'll keep the Granada Blockade up. Actually, Aragon probably would have invaded Venice...but I'm not that plausible.

Yah, the Ottomans should be East Orthodox...but considering the fact that we magically turned them into Christians and burned Mecca, I'm willing to have them as Roman Catholics. Michael Douglas 02:21, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Aragon
I wish to ask the Aragonians to keep their nose out of Venetian business. The Venetian CHurch was founded out of necessity. The Pope had kicked us out of the Catholic Church. What were we supposed to do? Besides, the religion of Venice is by no way part of Aragon's business. You could have create a form of toll that the Venetian shipping would have to pay, but nooooo. You just had to blockade. First the Ottomons and now the Aragonians. Every time I look there's another powerful asshole trying to impose their will on Venice.

Yank 23:08, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

How come the pope kicked you out, then fled and joined you? You declared independance!

I'm just trying to be plausible. You can still get your colonists out through the Crimean Empire. Besides, I'm out of patience with you. How old are you? You come and join this game, and the second someone does something you don't like you just snap. I'm pretty sure the only asshole here is you. Do you realise that nobody has ever acted like this to you in the whole map game?

Why should I make a toll? Doing this would get you excommunicated. Meaning as a loyal subject of the Catholic Church, I don't do business with you. Its rich of you to talk about how I'm interfering with Venice's affairs, and about how your religion is none of my business. Who complained about the Serpent Liscenses? Who insisted that Brittany couldn't be catholic? You. I'm actually protestant. I would be on your side, if this was the real world. But in the real world, people don't put up with people like you. When you're ready to seriously and plausibly contribute, I'll think about doing business with you again. Michael Douglas 02:28, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Venetian Church
Just so that we can congregate all the comments and discussions relating to the recent schism in the Church.

BoredMatt 01:24, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Just to remind everyone, but the Catholic and Venetian Churches aren't that different. Like the early Anglican Church (which I based the Venetian Church on) they Venetian Church still uses the traditional Catholic rites and traditions. Other than a few cosmetic changes (like the language used in sermons) there is no difference between the Venetian and Catholic Churchs.

Yank 03:26, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Sven
Am I reading this right? A twelve-year-old ascended to the KU throne? I only have a passing knowlege of how a monarchy of th day worked, but I thought they had something called "regents". These people would be advisors that would effectively rule in the king/queen's place until he/she reached a certain age (usually 18). This is due to the fact that during puberty people are usually stupid.And why is this seemingly unsupervized pre-teen king attacking Venetians instead of trying to root out disloyal elements in his own government? The last time I checked, the KU had made themselves effectively neutral in the Cold War. What the hell happened?

Yank 02:21, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and the Catholic pope suddenly betrayed his religion and became the head of the Venetian Church? People in europe around this time where considered adults at 13. Its not that implausible. Michael Douglas 02:30, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

He didn't just leave. He was forced to flee due to his Venetian heritage. I bet that if he didn't flee he would have been tried, and quickly executed. Then sometime later his bones would have been dug up and put on trial again.

Yank 02:38, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Allow me to explain this in full. When Eric (Margeret's adopted son and her heir, as well as Svens father) was adopted, it was because Marge had no living relatives other than a daughter of questionable mental faculties and needed an heir who would be outside the traditional boundaries in place in Scandinavian politics, she found the recently-orphaned Boguslaw (the young duke of Pomerania) and married him to her daughter. She soon died after a quite unfortunate plunge to her death from a balcony, and Eric married a pretty and sharp-witted Finno-Swedish noblewoman. On his death, none of the nobles dared accept a Finn as Queen Regent with a war with Novrogrod (who would invariably try to ensue rebellion among the Finns and Balts). His son, on the other hand, was at the threshold of manhood and intelligent to boot. For as to the reason why he's killing Venetians? Well, using my logic, he's attacking them because he is a devout Catholic and wants to be seen as having no qualms about killing powerful and influential people to attain his goals (a not-so-subtle sign to the more disloyal elements of the nobility. Actually killing them would destabilize the government far more.). However, your logic seems invariably better suited to this argument. He's an 11-year-old boy who's father died because of Venetian ideas. Who better to go around on a rampage executing law-abiding merchants than an infuriated and vengeful child? BoredMatt 02:49, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

PS And what I think Michael Douglas is trying to say is why did the Pope excommunicate Venice and then flee to it?

Thats precisely it. The pope is the most Catholic person in Europe, why was he so quick to betray his Catholic beliefs? Michael Douglas 02:53, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

I'll replace it with him being either replaced or lynched by an angry mob. Anyway, Sven's rampage is a recipe for some frustrated noble or aide poisoning, stabbing or otherwise killing the spoiled brat. Here's hoping the replacement is more level-headed than the infantile Sven.

Yank 03:07, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Council of Nations
In order to prevent problems such as the presen cold war from happening again, I propose a Council of Nations. This body will act like the OTL UN and will (hopefully) prevent such issues before they arise.

Yank 03:47, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

It's called the Catholic Church. Every Catholic nation is at good terms with eachother. CrimsonAssassin 12:09, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, Yank, any sort of international board that would mediate conflicts is horridly implausible at this time. I'd doubt the ability for most rulers of europe to just sit down at a table with their rivals, let alone have an intelligent discussion over touchy subjects (namely heresy/reform within the Church itself). It's more likely to cause a conflict rather than mediate one. BoredMatt 19:54, November 29, 2010 (UTC)

How about a broader non-agression pact, and immunity for diplomats? This treaty could be extended from the Catholic church to the muslims and the Church of Venice. Michael Douglas 00:20, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

You've got a deal!

Yank 00:46, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

No CrimsonAssassin 01:06, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think good ol' Sven would be willing to go for it if you grant his missionaries a free hand in Venice. Long-term, I would like to see the Church eclipsed by Protestant forces. I just kinda played Sven in there to get your SE Asian colonies in case of war. BoredMatt 01:10, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I made a similar deal with Aragon. I accept, as long as tribute stops. If the KU wants Venetian goods, its only fair that you pay for them. How about you have the beginings of Protestantism (either Venetian or a home-grown version) start right now (circa 1436)?

Yank 02:37, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well first of all, I will be your main opposition in trying to eclipse the church. Secondly, I killed Martin Luther's anscestors, postponing Protestantism.

So? Let me remind you that this is not history. All you have done is changed who begins the movement. You haven't slowed it one bit. It might have been different if you killed Martin Luther himself, but you didn't. Besides, the KU is a massive economic and military power. I doubt you will get BoredMatt to back down. Plus I doubt Roman Catholicism will be eliminated in the KU. It has too many folowers for persecution to truely be viable. What I do not get is why you are being so difficult. Mr. Douglas proved that he was willing to negotiate, so I ask this: Why are you so incapable to sit down and negotiate? As Mr. Douglas said "you have to give to get".

Yank 03:27, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, I don't have any illusions about creating some Protestant World Empire in which Catholicism is extinct, Yank. And CA, who's to say that Protestantism would never have existed (or even been postponed) in a world where ML never lived? Maybe some more popular variation on the Cathar faith springs up in Aragon, or the Hussites become more popular (in fact, the Hussites literally just signed the Compacta if events in Eastern Europe are more-or-less the same as in OTL, garunteeing freedom of religion in Bohemia). Possibly Joe Schmoe the Irish pimp decides to expiate his old ways and creates his own little branch of Christianity, Joeism. You can't stop the growth of a movement like Protestantism with the death of a single man, or a hundred of them.

But I can postpone it for a while. I refuse to back down. Besides, I gave you some land in North America. You have to give to get? I gave. What do I get?

You may have momentarilly frozen the movement, but it'll b be back in otion before you know it. And don't get mistaken. It was you who got more territory in North America. You purchased the KU's mid-atlantic colony. So in my mind that means you have yet to give, so you cannot get just yet. And could you please sign your posts please?

Yank 15:07, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Never! CrimsonAssassin 16:52, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I just made something similar to your Council of Nations! The new Holy Roman Empire is really just a council of our empires! I hope you enjoy this, guys! TheRing999 22:19, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Wallachia
Would it be allright if I would control a restored Wallachia?

Yank 03:00, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I can see Wallachia within your "sphere of Influence". I've been kindof informall having Portugal in mine, since I had an alliance with portugal before they ceased activity... it would really have to just be the same as if you conquered and annexed Wallachia, though. You wouldn't get any bigger bonuses than if you annexed it, its just that Wallachia has a more interesting backstory. Michael Douglas 21:08, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

PitaKang
It it just me or does anyone else think that PitaKang is becoming quite a pest?

Yank 23:25, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree. He seems to believe that he can just kill various figures at will, and IMO it's a pretty cheap way to go about playing this game. BoredMatt 23:30, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I have had a grudge with him ever since he annexed Bosnia. I have itched for an excuse to invade, and the fool gave the perfect excuse when he invaded me. I have decided to that not only should Hungary be defeated, it should be dismembered. It should be divided between Wallachia (who gets the rest of OTL Romania), Venice, Austria, Bohemia, Poland-Lithuainia, and the Ottomons. Since he played the cheesy assassination card first, that made it perfectly fine for me to counteract it. Besides, I know too much about Vlad III (aka "The Impaler") to allow him to die. A man that wickedly clever would be a great ally. He once killed a pair of Ottomon envoys who refused to take off their turbans by nailing their turbans to their heads! He then sent their bodies back to the Ottomons as a message (which amounted to "Don't f*ck with me"). That's a serious badass.

Yank 23:52, November 30, 2010 (UTC) My God! Luckily, we don't wear turbans anymore!

1000Monkeys 00:15, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, sure sounds like it. On the subject of Pitakang, however, he is a relatively new player and doesn't seem to know how the Map Games work (ie it's not some mad free-for-all in which nations try to top others with hugely implausible acts such as setting up a colony thousands of miles away whilst in a war with two (soon to be three ;) ) nations who together have more-or-less 2/3's of the world's military forces). I think that he needs a bit of a slap on the wrist. BoredMatt 00:03, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Dude, he should have done his research. Now, we have to gang up on him. 1000Monkeys 00:15, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Yup. Just like the dumb robber who tried to rob a gun store, he really needed to do the research. He unintentionally pissed off a nation that is very much capable of defending itself. Also like th aforementioned robber, he will not live to regret his mistake.

Yank 00:35, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone here opposed to me resorting to my only real power, blockading Granada? Damnit, I was trying to get a treaty with hungary before this whole thing started...

If they want edit war, I'll give them edit war! "Suddenly, alien space bats nuke Hungary. Also, Aragon suddenly en masse ascends to godhood" Michael Douglas 00:49, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Be reasonable Mike. The Hungarians brought this upon themselves. They made the mistake of attacking the Venetians, who are a very strong military power. In their insane land grab they doomed the very existance of their nation. If you need someone to blame, blame Pitakang.

Yank 01:10, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, don't get so worked up, Yank. If Michael wants to go, then he'll go, bitch. "Flaming n00b sauce reigns down from the heavens into the gullets of the noble Scandinavians. They then utilize this drink of the gods as a digestive supplement, alowing them to literally eat north Africa and Aragonese Canada with little more than some temporary heartburn. The North Atlantic is seeded with plasma mines introduced by a Grey-Reptilian trading consortium." Top that if you will, Michael Douglas. BoredMatt 01:19, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

I surrender to your supperior spamming powers. Just please, please stop this rain of sauce that is contaminating our cities!

BTW I was talking about cutting off Hungary's communication with their colony... oh well. XD Michael Douglas 22:46, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Consider it cut. I don't think Hunngary even has any port facilities anymore!

Yank 23:03, December 1, 2010 (UTC)