Talk:DME (Principia Moderni II Map Game)

Discussion of the plans
Can we not just have a pact to all support one another against non-Muslim aggressors for the time being? It provides the same benefit of protection plus we retain greater control of our respective nations.

An idea I have for an interesting way to establish this caliphate is we have a rise up and re-establish the great Muslim caliphate. The Mahdi establishes a large caliphate after taking over all of our nations, and then goes on to big himself up with religious feelings after people start thinking its the. As the supposed end of the world draws closer all of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgment occur and the Muslim world gets ready for the end of the world. Then when nothing happens and the world doesn't end, a huge renaissance of liberal thinking takes place as it turns out the Mahdi was a fraud and the world doesn't end. The caliphate then enters a period of civil disarray, which ends up with it either collapsing and we divide the territory up between ourselves or we form a federation like caliphate. For me it seems more likely the Mahdi being caught out as a fraud to throw the caliphate into civil disarray, and then a bunch of local warlords & leaders fight for control, ending up in a series of successor states.

Anyway what you guys think of that? The eschatology has always interested me so I figured using some to create this state would be interesting. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sound intesting for an Althistory! But, I was planning something a small bit more prestigious, say like the Caliphate (as said). But the idea you presented was very similar to what I did at the end of PMI. Saamwiil (talk) 20:23, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well if you want to go ahead with this plan you certainly have my support. We could stretch it over a few decades as we have this Mahdi rise to power, and then when his caliphate extends over the entire, we can have that when the Mahdi is in control upon the earth for certain time, seven, nine or nineteen 7, 9, 19 years, after which ensues the death of all civilization just preceding the Judgement. During this period we have the other signs being noticed but then eventually nothing happens and the thing collaspes in on itself.

Just wondering how you intend to make it more prestigious? This plan half includes the Caliphate going super expansionist, trying to take over all of the world. I can't really think how much more prestigious we can get lol. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:55, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

For the Mahdi, we could have the 1428 Catalan Earthquake, the 1481 Rhodes Earthquake and 1509 Istambul Earthquake, and some big fire-war for the smokes. The sun rising from the west might be the discovery of the Americas if the Muslims have a part on it, or Granada/Morocco/Mali rising under a ruthless pan-Islamic leader (which can be the Fake Messiah). That or a new Christian Crusade (the Messiah being Jesus). Gog and Magog might be an Uzbek resurgenece seeking to restore Timur's Empire or even more, the Mongol Empire? (in which case Gog and Magog might be the Uzbeks and their leader, the Uzbeks and the Hindu or the Uzbeks and the Mongols). It's the Beast and Jesus which I can't see coming back.

Though if we skip those two we might be in a pretty good position to put a fake Mahdi in and create the DME. Fed (talk) 23:09, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, can there not be a fake Mahdi, maybe something slightly more moderate, like a fake decendant from Muhammad. Saamwiil (talk) 23:14, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

A proper descendant of Muhammad might happen in the, and it'd be cool to have a new Caliph, but a unified nation wouldn't be able to exist because a descendant of Muhammad would make everybody Shi'ite and nobody wants that if you're Sunni. Fed (talk) 23:38, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

True dat man, but Sunnis wouldn't mind, as long as they're not the only choice... Let's see..... How about a slow building, through marriages. Saamwiil (talk) 23:42, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's more likely, and with the three earthquakes and some of the prophesies being fullfilled, we can also have an extremist faction believing that the Hashemites are actually the Mahdi, leading to them to add the title of "Mahdi" to the full title of the Caliph.

I also believe we could do some sort of personal union with maybe some sort of more individual national rights. Fed (talk) 23:49, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Customs Monetary Union Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:50, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I was planning to keep individual national rights. We'd only adopt things a majority of us voted on... Saamwiil (talk) 23:51, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

So we could vote for something like the Geneva Convention except name it the Medina Convention. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 23:52, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well something less formal. Say I married the Mamluks and the Marininds marry Granada.

Nasrids. not Granada

Hm? Saamwiil (talk) 23:57, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah we can always make up an even worse earthquake if necessary, natural disasters probably won't happen exactly how they did in OTL so I can always do a mod event for 3 large devastating earthquakes. We could use a huge wildfire in southern Sudan for the "Fire from the west of what is now Yemen" and this could be the smoke too. If not we could have a big volcano explosion which is mostly ash.

The beast we could have as people living in the desert claiming to have seen it and maybe even a copycat serial killer? As for Jesus, someone could claim to be him but I'm not too sure if we'd be able to have him do miracles & stuff. TBH if we get the other stuff done then this stuff can just be from misinterpretations of people who are all caught up & flustered with the approaching end of the world. We'd just keep this stuff vage, but not sure how we have Jesus assist the Mahdi in restoring Islam, unless we have a fake Jesus too.

As for a fake descendant from Muhammad, we could include this in with this plan, as in the Shia view of the Mahdi and, has the Mahdi being an infallible male descendant of the founder of Islam, Muhammad, was born but disappeared, Twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi. Besides there have been many potential Mahdi in OTL, so if his and his father's names were the same as Muhammad's and his father's, and he had come to Mecca from the north, then they can sort of begin claiming to be Mahdi. Give the Mahdi more success in battle than the potential Mahdi in OTL, and more people will believe & support their divinity.

We can always do other caliphate stuff after this plan, and you'll have my support if you want to do your own caliphate plan later on. But I think this plan is too awesome not to be done. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:58, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my point was for a more mild thing if we didn't want to follow all those clues as precisely so that it was somewhat more plausible. But I'm all for the Mahdi, and it being around the 1490s (so that either Granada/Morocco/Mali rises or America is discovered, and thus "the sun rises from the west").

BTW, another coincidence; the Marinid's symbol was a star. Maybe the Mahdi is a Marinid after a Marinid marries a Hashemite? Fed (talk) 00:07, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah he can be. Like you say, yeah we won't be able to have it precisely, but if most the stuff happens and we have all the hype, we can just have much of that stuff as vague gossip which is sensationalized into near-fact. Its just the Jesus helping the Mahdi I'm struggling to work out, I mean we could always make a divergent timeline where Jesus really does come down to Earth and the day of judgement actually happens. Otherwise Jesus not appearing and the world not ending could be the cause of the Mahdi to loose followers, until it slowly just collapses on itself. That coupled with a few battles being lost and the Europeans managing to push us back. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:30, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, for late response had to make Moroccan Tea and eat KusKus with the family. Hmm. All good ideas. Trying to fuse and integrate. Maybe in the same year, there is 3 earthquakes near the capitals of this nation, and they take it as a sign of God, including the death of the heir. And say the daughter of the Mamluk Sultan claims to be a heshimite and the Maranid King marries her. Making him king. Then my heir dies so a daughter marries a Prince of Oman. After 20 years, the same things happen to those unions... Saamwiil (talk) 00:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You can just take over Oman by conquest. It'll be easier, and I wanna get rid of the Nabhan Dynasty and establish a new dynasty anyway. You can simulate wars if both sides agree to the outcome so this should speed things up, otherwise we'll loose the Timurid/Mongol threat VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:12, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So I conquer you. Mamluk makes Granda a semivassel. I have no sons, mary the Mamluks. We'll see about the Maranids. We have to make the DME more contiguos before we include them (Say annexing the Hafsids, which might take time). Saamwiil (talk) 01:23, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Right then, until then I'll continue to expand into the Bedouin territory. Perhaps the Mamluks start a war against the Hasfids now? Also I think we should re-organise this stuff into a clear time frame plan of what we do, so we all know what we need to be doing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:36, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So, I'm going to post a plan and move all of this to the talk page, fine with you. ~Saamwill

Fine by me.

If y'all still want a Turko-Mongolic threat to arise, I will see what I can do. Do you have a specific time you want? (preferably in the next couple decades before the khanates all start getting crushed by the Chinese and Russians)LurkerLordB (Talk) 01:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Ottomans
Oh and try get DeanSims on-board with this plan could someone? His Ottoman Empire will be an important asset to the caliphate. Anyway I'm going to bed now so you'll have to wait a few hours for anymore output from me VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 01:45, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we will before colonization.

The plan & rough outline of each stage
I'll conquer some of the Smaller Turksih states after expanding, about another 3 years or so. Saamwiil (talk) 17:26, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I amended a bit because us people in the plan mean we can go for a multiple of plan goals with our individual nations. This will not only arose less suspicion, it also means we don't risk overstretching ourselves. So basically since these things are sure-fire to definitely happen we should pursue the more difficult goals which aren't entirely in our hands (e.g. conquering NPC nations), plus otherwise if you conquer me dead early on, I don't have much to do in the game & I don't wanna get too bored. Plus if I stay allied with you and remain independent you get a higher score in the algorithm from military aid being sent to you from your allies.

Anyway specifically on Aq Qoyunlu conquering Oman, I plan for Oman to continue expanding for a while until border disputes and rivalry ends up with war breaking out. Basically Oman starts to get too cocky with its navy, so You & the Mamluks defeat me on land but Oman's greater naval strength allows Oman to put off an aquatic invasion by your Turks, then you plot with another Omani noble family to have them overthrow the Nabhan Dynasty, and this new Omani noble family who consqired with you stages a coup and overthrows the Nabhan & bows down to Aq Qoyunlu to become a vassal state.

Basically stage 1 is take over the near-by NPCs, expanding into the unclaimed black territory as much as possible. This period should also allow us to build up our infrastructure. E.g. I plan for Oman to become the dominant naval power in Arabia and the Indian Ocean, to give the future caliphate a nice building block to build a strong navy and large trade empire/income/connections. Plus we can use this stage as a building period to make sure we have other Muslim nation players on board with the plan who are yet to declare loyalty in joining the plan.

Stage 2 is when we join together either via marriage, vassalization, puppet states or conquest. The marriage unifying Aq Qoyunlu and the Mamluks, is the final joining peace. The new Barbarian khanate rises in the east too, perhaps lead by another great military genius like Gengis Khan or Timurlame.

Stage 3 is when the caliphate is formed, a short civil war may break out as this is formed. Then a new caliphate comes to power after he dies, and the future Mahdi comes to become the Caliph. The Mahdi caliph's authority is solidified by great military victories and some of the signs of the Hadith signs of the supposed day of judgement, to the point he goes and declares himself the Mahdi.

Stage 4 is when the Mahdi now rules over nearly all of the Ummah, and he wages many successful wars against the Barbarians, Europeans, Africans and Indians. This period of super expansionism lasts nine years as foretold by the hadiths, as the muslim armies spurred on by the Mahdi try to conquer the world & make it Muslim, ready for the day of judgement. More hadith signs are noticed and the caliphate goes mental with religious duty, feelings and terrified celebration as the day of judgement is nearly upon them.

Stage 5 is less mental super-expansionism, and the Mahdi begins to loose some support. The caliphate expands more slowly and battles begin to be lost. This will probably be when the Holy Roman Empire ends up unifying, and they push us out of Europe. This period lasts ten more years, and as the 20th year of the Mahdi's rule takes place, most people begin to question whether he really is the true Mahdi as the day of judgement still hasn't occurred. Perhaps a huge natural disaster happens so people think its the day, but it really isn't?

Stage 6 is the downfall of the Mahdi's caliphate, the Mahdi is found to be a fraud (perhaps a fake Jesus who claims to be divine is caught out, and the Mahdi looses his legitimacy). We all split up, as the empire looses even more against its enemies, and factions in the caliphate split it up between themselves, as it all collapses in on itself.

So is this okay with you all? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:52, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

So you do want me to make a strong barbarian khanate? LurkerLordB (Talk) 20:11, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

When we're just about finished with stage 1, yes please. I'm thinking a new military genius leader likened to Gengis Khan, Atlia or Tamerlane takes over. This could happen as he tries to establish a new great khanate/hoard as the other ones around him seem to be failing. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:18, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we're underestimating what the Christian nations will do in the north. We barely held the Muslim foothold in the Iberic Peninsula, and now all the nations in the area noted this, forming alliance and whatnot. Though Christian Nations are no threat right now, France and England and their respective coalition practically dividing the powerful nations of the Christian World, Christian Nations as they grow stronger will take tough action. Ianian58 (talk) 20:32, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but since anti-European expansionism will last ~20 years, then we will most likely take them by surprise. And the conquest will not take long; we'll just take a large swathe of territory then collapse and lose it.