Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Economy:
 * Infrastructure:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 5 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''
 * How in the world did Dakota get so big so fast?
 * They attacked and annexed Ute lands. Scandinator (talk) 23:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * I still think that this Ute conquest is unrealistic.even up to the 19th century, the Northern american tribes never subjugated each other to that extent.or, couple that with the fact that there are no traction animals on the area, so managing a empire becomes more difficult.or the fact that the Lakota have no centralized government.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:23, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * My genoan colony in east Cuba is missing. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 21:01, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 *  Isn't it is East Hispanola??Scandinator (talk) 23:37, December 16, 2012 (UTC) 
 * The outpost in East Hispaniola was a failure​, most people left and went to Cuba, so the big one is the cuban, the one in East Hispaniola still exists but its smaller than the map shows, and in the game is little more than a town with a few slave plantations. Bauglir Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All (talk) 20:32, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alodia is a full-fledged part of the Caliphate now, not a vassal state. Fed (talk) 23:39, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Before you point this out today or tomorrow, i forgot it too for 1555.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:24, December 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Collie why didn't you use the map I uploaded for 1550 then? Why do you always do this and never use the maps which other people have uploaded and made? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 02:25, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because i always forget to check them.Ah, and your rendition of Akmola on the latest map fixing doesn't seem right, as according with this map, Akmola doesn't control its own capital.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:03, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay I expanded Akmola a bit more. Also did Vinland and Sumatra changes too. Note I just added the Vinland expansion event because the last time I did it, it seemed to be forgotten so I've just done it again, that's why I went back & added the mod event. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:34, December 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are the two light gray states in OTL Mexico? CourageousLife (talk) 20:35, December 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but they are independent states created by event.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:02, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where's Manchuria's New Harbin colony? The Manchurians should have a dot of territory in OTL Sonora based around the port of Guaymas. Yank 20:37, December 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't know where this Guaymas was, so i put the colony on Baja California.Ah, and the 1000 sq km figure is to be divided among the colonies, not to be used simultanously by two colonies.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd still like it placed where it's supposed to be on the next map. Also there should be another Native Antillian country roughly in northern Indiana. Yank 05:03, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I ddn't add this country because i didn't know where was Indiana, as i'm not American.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 12:51, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You do know that both of those problems could be fixed by simply looking at a map? Yank 15:33, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither Nuovo Brescia (accidentally called Nuovo Padua a couple times) or Nuovo Firenze are shown on the map. One is on the East Coast of Lake Nicaragua the other is in West Papua (whereever in Papua, I don't care) Scandinator (talk) 09:20, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I added the one in West Papua but Lake Nicaragua is surrounded at all sides so I can't add that other colony of your's ~Von.
 * Did algorithm but was too lazy to calculate how long the war would take, but I had taken 37% at max. Enough time has elapsed in the game for me to annex it anyway. Please merge the Khosut Khanate with China. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 15:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed this ~Von.
 * I don't seem to find the (revamped) colony of New Alexandria; it's on eastern Sulawesi. Fed (talk) 05:20, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Its there, I've added some more expansion. You may need to zoom in a fair bit to see the colony. ~Von

1565 Map Issues


 * The Satomi clan annexed the Ōtomo clan back in 1561. The Ōtomo clan was located in Northern Kyushu. -Kogasa [[Image:Symbol of Natori, Miyagi.png|23px|border]][[Image:宮城県.png|23px|border]][[Image:Flag of Japan.png|23px|border]] 2012年12月29日 06:42:24 (JST)
 * I've included a link to the wikipedia article on Guaymas here. now there should be no exucuse to get the location of my New Harbin colony wrong. Yank 19:53, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Iroquois and Mecklenburg conquered by Brandenburg. Altmark by Saxony. Austria in personal union with Brandenburg.

Brandenburg
Total: 78
 * Location: 2
 * Tactical Advantage: 5 (larger colonial empire), 1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Scandinavia (M), Luxembourg (S), Saxony (M), Magdeburg (S) = 14/4 = 3.5 ~ 4
 * Military Development: 26
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 6
 * Edit Count: 8751
 * UTC Time: 16:35
 * 1*6*3*5 = 90
 * 8751/90 x pi = 305.4675...
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Population: 16
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: - 1

Erokees
Total: 46/51
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: none
 * Strength: Erokees (L +4) = 0
 * Military Development: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Economy: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Infrastructure: 5/2 = 2.5 = 3
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5/10
 * Chance: 7
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:

Result
((78/(78+38))*2) - 1 = 34.48%

Discussion
Infrastructure doesn't count for your score unless you are the defender.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:40, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:49, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yes.it's even on the rules.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:07, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

And plus, your capital is pretty much in the other side of the world, the chance for NPC's isn't random (is the number right after your number), and your score can only be 3 on motive, because you aren't defending your ownteritory, and fighting to help an ethnicity on their nation is pretty much implausible, since it is an native nation, after all.their motive is 10, as you already had shown pretensions of annexing them before, and all the other motives that give 7 do not apply.and, your ages are pretty much the same, as the formation of the Haudenosaunee and the last government change of Brandenburg happened on the same timeframe.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 07:28, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK. I'll fix the math in the morning; I'm going to sleep now. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 07:17, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

OK I'm doing this all over again. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 23:18, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Again, you did the economy wrong, the Haudenosaunee appeared in 1458, so it was more than 100 years ago.And there ain't no way their motive can't be 10, counting the precendents.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 06:44, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

No, it's five. I'm trying to get as much as possible, not all of it. And these advantages are becoming really implausible. How on earth can native tribes fight back armed Europeans? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 07:26, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in OTL, the Haudenosaunee themselves survived until the 18th century.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 09:39, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Notification
I might be a bit inactive the next week or so (I already was a bit) because of the holidays. 77topaz (talk) 03:03, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I also might be absent from today until tuesday, or it is thursday? i always confuse these the day before wednesday.but don't worry, the map will be ready before 1570 ends, and i already told AP to take my place on posting in case that i can't access the internet there.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:53, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The day before wednesday is tuesday. Also I can do the map if you want. You'll probably want to update your colonies yourself mind you, so take the current updated map for 1565 and upload it for 1570 with your colonial expansion on it and I'll do the rest. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:46, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Mahdiate
Total: 64*1.5 = 96
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (larger colonial empire, attacker) +6
 * Strength: Wallachia (M), Rumelia (L), Anatolia (L), Candar (M), Karaman (M), Cilesia (M), Trbizond (M), Al-Slaveit (M), Crimea (M), Georgia (M), Circassia (M), West Qoyunlu (M), East Qoyunlu (M), Iraq (M) Persia (M), Afghanistan (M), Balochistan (M), Koli (M), Gujurat (M), Deccan (M), Mangyastau (M), Dimurats (M), Bukhara (M), Xwarezm (M), Turkistan (M), Aqmola (M), Oman (M), Shaybah (M), Nejd (M), Hadramut (M), Yemen (M), Ehthiopia (M), Nubia (M), Hijaz (M), Egypt (M), Palesine (M), Syria (M), Tripolitania (M), Tunisia (M), Algeria (M): 122/22 -- 5.545 ~ +6
 * Military Development: +4
 * Economy: +4
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +3
 * Chance: +8
 * Edit Count: 5,961
 * UTC Time: 21:32 - 2*1*3*2 = 12
 * 5,961/12*pi= 1560.58615067
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 9 +20 = +29
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Byzantium
Total: 32
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Byzantium (L), Venice (M), Scandinavia (S), Papal States (M), Austria (M), Tyrolia (MV), Salzburg (MV), Cyprus = 22 -- 0
 * Military Development: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: 0
 * Edit Count: 34
 * UTC Time: 21:32 - 2*1*3*2 = 12
 * 34/12*pi= 8.90117918517
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Population: +7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
((96/(32+96))*2)-1 = 0.5

(50)*(1-1/(2*2)=37.5

The Caliphate wins 37.5% following a 2 year war meaning that they can annex the Byzantine empire.

Discussions
I think you need a leader, else the military development scores and the economy scores can't be done.i assume the leader would be likely Rumelia, ain't it?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:39, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say Rumelia would be the leader. Fed (talk) 17:51, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Rumelia makes the most sense.

Also wouldn't relgion be the reason? The Mahdi wants to spread Islam rather than gaining economic resources.

Also thank you very much for making the algorithm I was dreading doing it. --VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:42, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The HRE states are missing. I'll add them. And can all the Caliphate states always give M or S in a war? Sounds kind of ridiculous... Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 18:55, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

That is a bit ridiculous, considering that most of the turns by the Caliphate in 1566 are "builds up its economy/military", with no word of being involved in the war, yet their names are still in the algorithm. ChrisL123 (talk) 19:21, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

What he said. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 19:34, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The Byzantium side has a larger colonial empire(Scandinavia, Venice, etc). Not to mention the penalties for recent wars on the side of the Caliphate. Isn't there penalties for having 3+ wars at once(Byzantium, Morocco, Adal, etc).AP (talk) 19:46, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

No you misunderstand the algorithm, its colonial empire of the countries which are fighting in the war only. So only the colonial empires of Byzantium and Caliphate are considered.

And the wars being waged at the same time are being done by different provinces of the caliphate so that stuff don't apply. Its the same as penalizing Venice for a war fought by Brandenburg just because they both in the HRE. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:22, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about the leaders here. And you guys don't have a colonial empire, just an empire. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:25, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * No you fool, we have colonies in Africa, 4 colonies to be exact. Socotora, Chomellak and two in South Africa. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

How are Ethiopia and Nubia going help you in this war with crossing masses of land and water? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 22:26, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The same can be said for Scandinivia, Austria, etc. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Cyprus supports Byzantium BTW. Airlinesguy (talk) 01:08, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Military aid I take it? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. Airlinesguy (talk) 00:16, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

On the other algorithms, the coalition's colonial empire was considered. The penalties make no sense because there should be a hefty penalty for fighting a 3 front war. Wouldn't that be a bit difficult for anyone? And that example made no sense because the Caliphate is a single entity with provinces while the HRE is a loose federation of sovereign states.AP (talk) 01:17, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Byzantium are not fighting in a coalition. And my example makes perfect sense if that is how we've been treating the caliphate for the past 100 years. Please read the rules and check past examples properly before applying them to this case. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 14:11, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliphate gets 20% of Byzantium. Yank 14:24, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

Mahdiate
Total: 63*1.5 =95
 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6 (attacking, larger colonial)
 * Strength: Wallachia (M), Rumelia (M), Anatolia (M), Candar (M), Karaman (M), Cilesia (M), Trbizond (M), Al-Slaveit (L), Crimea (L), Georgia (M), Circassia (M), West Qoyunlu (L), East Qoyunlu (M), Iraq (M) Persia (M), Afghanistan (M), Balochistan (M), Koli (M), Gujurat (M), Deccan (M), Mangyastau (M), Dimurats (M), Bukhara (M), Xwarezm (M), Turkistan (M), Aqmola (M), Oman (M), Shaybah (M), Nejd (M), Hadramut (M), Yemen (M), Ehthiopia (M), Nubia (M), Hijaz (M), Egypt (M), Palesine (M), Syria (M), Tripolitania (M), Tunisia (M), Algeria (M), Byzantium (M) 126/15 --- 3.93 -> 4
 * Military Development: 73/8 -- 9.125 -> 9
 * Economy: 2/2 --0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 1447
 * UTC Time: 11:34 --> 374
 * 1447/374*2.1415926535 = 8.285
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 9 + 20 = 29
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Muscovy
Total: 35
 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Muscovy (L), Novogrod (L), Poland (L), Scandinavia (M), Lithuania (M), Psokov (MV), Rostov (MV), Ruhenia (MV), Ryazyan(MV), Ukraine (MV), Moldova (MV), Sibir (MV)  32 -- 0
 * Military Development: 8 -- 0
 * Economy: 2 -- 0
 * Infrastructure: 0
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 3
 * Edit Count: 2780
 * UTC Time:11:40 440
 * 2780/440*3.14 = 19.839
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
((95/(35+95))*2)-1 = 46.15

(46.15)*(1-1/(2(3))) = 38.45

The will last 3 years, and Russia is to be annexed. It will be explained how it will be divided. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:54, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
Should we do the war algorithms for the invasions of Adal and Morocco first? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:46, December 31, 2012 (UTC)

You can. My hand will be full with European algorithms. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:52, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

You need to add the other russian states to the allies list. They're being invaded so they'll be fighting too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:58, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

(German) Kappelist League
Total: 25
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (attacker) +1
 * Strength: Mecklenburg (L, mentioned thrice ), Hesse-Wolfenbuttel (L, mentioned twice ), Munster (L, mentioned twice ), Brunswick (M), Lauenburg (M), Paderborn (M), Nassau (M), Strassburg (M), Breman (M), Altmark (M): 33 --> 0
 * Military Development: 2 (Meck 3/2), 2 (Hesse 3/2), 2 (Munster 3/2) = 6 -- 0
 * Economy: 2 (Meck 4/2), 3 (Hesse 5/2), 3 (Munster 5/2) = 8/2 = +4
 * Infrastructure: 3 (Meck 5/2), 3 (Hesse 5/2), 3 (Munster 5/2) 9 -- 0
 * Expansion: 0 (Meck), 0 (Hesse), 0 (Munster)
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +3 (using German chance)
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

(German) Catholic League
Total: 52
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (larger colonial empires)
 * Strength: Brandenburg (L), Burgundy (L), Saxony (L), Luxembourg (M), Calais (M), Magdeburg (MV), Aragon (M), France (M), Austria (M), Tyrolia (MV), Salzburg (MV), Mecklenburg (SW), Anhalt (MVW): 35/33 = 1.06 = +1
 * Military Development: 26 (Brandenburg), 6 (Burgundy), 14 (Saxony) = 46/6 = 7.666 = +8
 * Economy: +2 (Brandenburg), +0 (Burgundy), +0 (Saxony) = 2 – 0
 * Infrastructure: +12 (Brandenburg), +0 (Burgundy), +0 (Saxony) = 12/9 = 1.333 = +1
 * Expansion: -1 (Brandenburg War in New World), -5 (Burgundy onto Munster) = -6
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: (Using Imperial government numbers) = +8
 * Edit Count: 8813
 * UTC Time: 1439
 * 1*4*3*9 = 108
 * (8831/108)*pi = 256.883...
 * Nation Age: [+5 (Brandenburg), +5 (Burgundy), +5 (Burgundy), ]/3 = +5
 * Population: +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Results
Crushing (German) Catholic League victory, ((52/(52+25))*2)-1 = 35.06%.

If the war lasts 4 years, (35.06)*(1-1/(2(4))) = 30.67% can be taken.

(Italian) Catholic League
Total: 59
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: (attacker) +1
 * Strength: Venice (L), Papal States (L): 8/6 = 1.333 = +1
 * Military Development: 10 (Venice), 28 (Papal States): 38/12 = 3.166 = +3
 * Economy: 4 (Venice), 10 (Papal States) = +14
 * Infrastructure: -- 1 (Venice), 0 (Pope): +1
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +7
 * Edits: 5654
 * UTC: 3:15
 * 3*1*5 = 9
 * (5654/15)*pi = 1184.17099089
 * Nation Age: [+5 (Venice), +5 (Papal States)] = +5
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2 (Venice-Papal war in Naples)

(Italian) Kappelist League
Total: 21
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Milan (L), Genoa (MV): 6 --> 0
 * Military Development: 12 -- 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +1
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +7
 * Chance: +3
 * Edits: 796
 * UTC: 3:15
 * 3*1*5
 * (796/15)*pi= 166.71385015
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +6
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Result
Crushing (Italian) Catholic League victory. ((59/(59+21))*2)-1 = 47.5%.

If the war ends next year, (47.5)*(1-1/(2(4)))= 41.56% can be taken. ChrisL123 (talk) 03:19, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Bavaria
Total: (19*1.5) = 28.5 = 29
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength: Bavaria (L): 4 --> 0
 * Military Development: +12 -- 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Infrastructure: +4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +5
 * Edits: 2053
 * Time: 09:14
 * 9*1*4= 36
 * (2053/36)*pi= 179.158047717
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +10
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Imperials
Total: 38
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 (larger empire: Austria (including vassals and the such)), +1 (attacker)
 * Strength: Saxony (L), Austria (L), Tyrolia (M), Salzburg (MV), Magdeburg (M), Altmark (MV), Switzerland (M), Croatia (MV) = 23/4 = 2.75 = +3
 * Military Development: 16 (Saxony) = 16/12 = 1.33 = 1
 * Economy: 0 (Saxony), 0 (Austria) = 0
 * Infrastructure: 0 (Saxony), 0 (Austria) = 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5
 * Chance: +1
 * Edits: 8882
 * Time: 1457 (1*4*5*7 = 140)
 * 8882/140*pi = 199.311...
 * Nation Age: +5 (Saxony), +0 (Austria) = +5
 * Population: +5
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -1

Results
Imperial victory. If the leaders want land from Bavaria, they get ((38/(38+29))*2)-1 = 13.43%, and the length of the war will need to be determined.

Discussion
Bavaria's government did not change, many reichstag members, as well as the royal family, were secretly Kappelist. (thank you for setting up the algorithm scraw, i'm not good at it.)

i should have a plus for infrastructure as I built it up too, it wasn't just the militaryAndr3w777 (talk) 01:01, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

can somebody please add my infrastructure years and figure our chance??Andr3w777 (talk) 20:40, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

my motive should be +10 not +7, i am fihting for my life.

No, you were fighting to leave the HRE, and they're fighting to stop you. Not sure what that would mean in terms of motive scores, though. ChrisL123 (talk) 22:29, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

The reason is immaterial it is still a fight for my life, as per rules it should be a 10 I've not broken law in succession, it is in the treaty and our constitution if they refuse, I've not done anythingAndr3w777 (talk) 22:43, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Similar to what I said above, leaving the HRE and becoming part of the Kappelist league would be a change in a government but it'd be a popular revolt so you have to multiply your final score by 1.5. Therefore it'd be life or death because your new non-HRE government is fighting to stay out of the HRE and retain its current kappelist independent government. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:56, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

The Imperial's motive isn't to destroy their nation though. Their purpose is to stop the Bavarian government from leaving the HRE. Likewise, Bavaria's motive is an independence war. I believe the right motive is Defending (fighting to defend territory you already own, +5).

i suppose for the ske of arguement it can be anywhere between a 5 and a 7. Since it is merely a protectionist war, this succession to be clear, has been planned, and does not directly involve Kappelianism as of yet.Andr3w777 (talk) 01:45, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone count the Bavarian pixels? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 02:34, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

As I am losing, how much will this make Bavaria suffer, am i still indepednent or forced back into the HRE?Andr3w777 (talk) 05:18, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

You're in limbo currently. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:20, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Back at last
I am back at last, after being gone much longer than expected. Sorry for the prolonged absence. What happened involving Scotland while I was gone? LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:14, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Not much in Scotland but England has broken up. Elsewhere the Mahdi expansion wars has started as has the HRE break-up wars. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!)

Northumbria
Total: 27
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: Attacker, +1
 * Strength: Northumbria (L): 4/4 = +1
 * Military Development: +4
 * Economy: +0
 * Infrastructure: +0
 * Expansion: +0
 * Motive: Religion? +7
 * Chance: +4
 * Edits: 365
 * UTC time: 12:00
 * 1*2 = 2
 * (365/2)*pi = 573.3406
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +8
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: 0

Mercia

 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Mercia (L): 4 -- 0
 * Military: 0
 * Economy: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +10
 * Chance: +0
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: +6
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Total: 10, plus perhaps NPC bonuses??

Result
Northumbrian Victory (tentatively).

((27/(27+10))*2)-1 = 0.45945 = 46%.

The Caliphate
Let me make something perfectly clear. I don't think the Caliphate's recent actions qualify as jumping the shark. Thatt happened a long time ago. To refrence the Nostalgia Critic the Caliphate jumped the shark then went back to shoot it in the balls, raping it, eating it's flessh, consuming it's soul mounting it's head on the wall and then doing the same to twelve more sharks just to be sure. When the hell are we going to decide that enough is enough? When the entire European continent is worshipping Allah? I would get off their backs if they just stopped doing implausible things. At this point they've become serious competition with the Mongol Empire at it's prime for the largest land empire. It just pisses me off how bloated the dammned Caliphate is getting. It was to big ecades ago, and it's definitely too big now. There need to be consequences.Yank 03:48, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

What he said. All the way.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 03:50, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I have enough with this nonesense. I've been posting the same thing aagain and again since the damned Great Holy War and you're still calling us the progenitor of all implausibility. We have been planning this for ages, and it'll be "enough" when the Mahdi falls down and the Muslim armies die or flee to their area in chaos.

You would get off our backs when we were 2 square kilometre enclaves in Crusader land because for some reason you have a huge bias against everything Muslim.

Nothing at all close to "competing with the Mongol Empire", since, as you could see if you opened a map of the time, we're barely larger than the damned Umayyads but you still call us a source of implausibility even though you have a HRE that can actually unite, and (this is especially ironic), a group of what at the time was a bunch of barbaric tribes worse than the Mongols at their worst colonising America. Fed (talk) 04:20, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, the HRE had everything planned since the NINETEEN SIXTIES of Principia Moderni. Also you guys expanded at the same rate you are now before this "Mahdi" came.

Hell, I had no problems whatsoever with the original Caliphate. The you guys gallioned into the Balkans, Persia, India, and Central Asia.

You're way larger than the original Umayyad Empire. Look how far you people moved into India and Central Asia.

The HRE could have united OTL. Problem was, there were several problems that happened OTL along the way that didn't happen ATL. Also, who else is going to colonize Europe? Venice had capabilities. That said, they used them in this game. Brandenburg? That's the might of Spain kicking in. Nothing else to say, because we're the ONLY ONES colonizes in the Americas. (Oh, Burgundy? That's your OTL France in South America.)

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:29, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

The Caliphate cannot last more than a decade without a major collapse. You all gave me an estimate of 35 more years about 35 turns ago, so they need to start collapsing now. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:30, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

What Yank said basically sums up what's wrong with the Caliphate(graphic, but effective). Fed, look at the next map and you'll see the implausibility of the Caliphate's actions(IE CONQUERING RUSSIA, Adal, Morocco, half the damn Indian subcontinent, almost all of Central Asia. You guys are so implausible that you guys are going to border the German states and Scandinavia! If this was real history, you guys would have lost-- hands down. BUT since their isn't any penalty for having a 4-FRONT war and the fact that an algorithm decides the fate of a nation, you guys get away with it. All your planning is a thinly-veiled way of getting away with straight-up implausibility.AP (talk) 04:36, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

The only people to historically conquer Russia were the Mongols. You are not in any way, shape, or form, the Mongols, nor do you resemble them and their sheer power. End of story. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 04:42, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and not to mention that they like to divide areas into smaller and smaller provinces in order to get more military strength on algorithms. For example, Dulkadir, Trebizond, Karaman, and Candar could all be amalgamated into the Anatolia province but they keep them separate to get that extra +3. The list goes on and on...AP (talk) 04:43, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Russia, the Indian provinces, and the Anatolian ones will all revolt the next turn. Remember, if the result of the algorithm is implausible, it can be blocked- what should have happened with Russia. The Caliphate is going to collapse into a bloody mess for the next ten years because they are overextended like crazy. LurkerLordB (Talk) 04:52, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

For heaven's sake. 'Do you even read what I write? or do you pass it off as "oh those crazy Moslems are being evil and writing implausibilities again"?!'

The DME has also have everything planned since the start of PM2. Hell, I proposed the Mahdi to happen before 1500.

The wars in the Balkans are OTTOMAN, India is partly an inheritance of sorts of somebody who left the game and partly due to helping our ally. If you notice, Bengal won more land than us, but sure, because they can be influenced by Europe they are perfectly fine.

The Umayyad Emirate also controlled Central Asia, and it doesn't matter since Yankovic, complaining as hard as he possibly can, told us we were starting to beat the bloody MONGOL EMPIRE. Which is not at all the case. But sure, as you said, either we aren't the Mongols or we are, and since Yankovic says we are the Mongols, then I guess we can take over bloody Russia. And plenty of countries have BEAT Russia in their own land. Do "Poland", "Sweden" and "Crimea" ring any bells?

I don't mind Europe colonising America. I mind the Incas converting to Christianity and the Manchu tribes randomly becoming an empire more organised than China and colonising America. That is as implausible as the Caliphate, but since it either a) didn't affect European players or b) helped them, OF COURSE nobody complained. Since we're complaining about the Balkans and India, I feel I can complain about this too.

The HRE could have united in OTL? sure, with a 1170 AD POD and no Reformation.

I gave you an estimate of 35 more years 35 turns ago. I gave Von an estimate of 1500 in 1470. I'm lousy at math.

We are expanding tenfold because, y'know, we're in a short phase of mad expansion that follows collapse. In OTL we've lost? Really? because as far as I can see,         .

Dulakdir, Karaman and Candar are not part of the Anatolia province because in-game they have their own dynasty and out of game it leaves Dean with less provinces than the rest of us. Trebizond's separtae because 1 it's Von's and 2 it's mostly Greek.

And I get Russia and India, but the Anatolian provinces revolting make no fucking sense at all. But sure, that point of view comes from somebody who plays a Muslim nation, so it surely costs a tenth of yours.

Fed (talk) 05:00, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I am neither George W. Bush or another racist white person. I have no bias against you guys just because you're Muslim.

That said, Bengal is in India. For Pete's sake man, the damn Caliphate is based out of Turkey and Arabia. India? Funny. Over 50%? Hysterical.

The Umayyad Caliphate DID NOT  PLACE ITS NORTHERN BORDER IN KAZAKHSTAN . They hardly made it past Uzbekistan.

Also, you guys are larger than the Umayyads. The lack of Spain is made up by Turkey, the Balkan, Transcaucasia, and oh, what's that? Oh yes, ' KAZAKHSTAN. '

Also, your revolution is not like the ones listed. (And checking all those links was very annoying. Try to avoid that in the future.) The Mahdi was the existing Caliph. Do not name Alexander the Great. That psychopath did inherit his throne, yes, but he got stopped in India and Central Asia. And Africa. (No Ethiopia, see.)

Also, I think just because it's Von's is no excuse for it to stay apart.

Anatolian revolts? I have to agree on this one. A little farfetched. Less farfetched than the sheer size of the Caliphate, though.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:14, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I meant Balkan, not Anatolian, for the revolting provinces, sorry.

The Caliphate's expansion, other than Russia, is not super-implausible more tham standard map game fare. However, they've had their expansion, and now its time for their collapse. Yes, you gave me an estimate of 35 years 35 years ago. Now those years are up, and it is time for the Caliphate to implode. The higher the pedastal, the harder the fall... LurkerLordB (Talk) 05:24, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be George Bush, since you all seem to be perfectly free to be as implausible as you damn well wish but we can't do anything.

That said, the Caliphate is based out of Turkey and Arabia. Alexander's Empire was based out of Pella. Trajan's Empire was based out of Rome. Charles V's Empire was based out of Vienna. Persia? Egypt? America? Funny. Over 50&? Hysterical.


 * sighs*. AGAIN. We ARE larger than the Umayyads, but YANKOVIC. TOLD. US. WE. WERE. OF. THE. SIZE. OF. THE. MONGOLS*

I'm not avoiding something I use to prove my point, thank you very much. Alexander the Great got stopped where he stopped having knowledge of the world. Was his army not scared, tired, and going into lands they didn't know, they would've gone farther. The Mahdi's army is not scared, is not tired, and knows Europe.

No, but dynasties and being of a different culture are.

Less farfetched than the Soviet Union. Or the British Empire. Or the modern United States. Or Napoleon's Empire. Or Charles V's Empire. Or Charlemagne's Empire. Or Belisarius' Empire. Need I go on?

The Balkans also make no sense. LIKE A THIRD OF THE ARMY IS PLACED THERE. Another proof that people don't pay attention at what the Muslim provinces post.

AGAIN. I gave you a standard of 35 years 35 years ago. It went wrong because I am lousy at math. My previous estimates? 1489, 1492, 1500, 1511. Does that mean that the Mahdi should've rosen in any of that dates? Because I'll be glad to edit him in. Fed (talk) 05:27, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not Yank. That alone derails your entire argument. The Soviet Union rose from the Russian Empire. Less territories, in fact. US today? What about it? Napoleon's Empire? Puppet states, not direct annexation. Besilarius? Wait, who? Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:32, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

You're on Yank's argument. Just because you're not him doesn't derail his argument. You agree with his argument, and we apparently being larger than the Mongol Empire even when somebody that is not blind and can see a map can show you its not the case.

Fine then the Russian Empire. the US today is a HUGE state that arose out of lucky accidents and events in which it did the right choices at the right time. Napoleon's Empire still hugely spread. You know you can search on Wikipedia for stuff? Belisarius was a general who almost restored the Byzantine Empire to the Roman Empire's extension. Is he implausible too? Fed (talk) 05:37, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

All of those examples grew either far less rapidly and as much as the Caliphate has, and several of them have had far more advanced technology as well. Your previous estimates have shown that you've delayed the collapse for about 80 years. It's time for the Caliphate to go.

And stop making baseless racism accusations against anyone who questions you. LurkerLordB (Talk) 05:38, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I said you're not the same size as the Mongol Empire. What's wrong with you?

And what Lurk said is exactly the rest of my argument. Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:40, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me? What's wrong with me? and the "fuck them" in Andrew's chat? Don't talk like that to me again.

And YANK said I was. I was replying to Yank. I have repeatedly stated that we are larger than the damned Umayyads and that the Mongol post was adressed at Yankovic.

I'm not making baseless racism accusations, I'm stating that since in the game we are "evil moslems" you don't read my comment.

Far less rapidly? Is Alexander's Empire, or Napoleon's, or Hitler's or Belisarius', all of which lasted twenty years, risen more slowly than the Caliphate? Did a two year conquest of the Aztec and the Inca, itself only thirty years away from the discovery of America, last more than an 80-year process? the math doesn't make up to me.

And I've delayed the collapse 80 years? No, all those estimates show I don't know how long would the Caliphate take. Because really, otherwise it would've been a 5-year thing with no sense. We told you something and know you're clinging on to it even though I've told you again and again that was not an estimate and was wrong since our math was off.

Fed (talk) 05:45, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Fuck them also being let them get screwed; aka Russia. You're getting a little confused here...

And who said you were "evil Moslems" other than yourself?

Also, we are not counting the present Mahdiate, as it is simply a direct extension of the Caliphate formed however-long-ago it was.

Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein! 05:49, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well, since context is not the easiest thing to get out of a text, fine.

Nobody I grant, but you are still not reading my post. I assume it's because I'm arguing for the Mahdinate. If that's not the correct thing, fine.

And I am also counting it. The Caliphate has lasted about 80 years, so it's taken a lot more to reach its current form than any of the empires have.

I'm going to sleep now, but could you all please take a look at my argument and read the whole point? Because I've been repeating some things since in-game decades ago and that's what's been annoying me to no edge. Fed (talk) 05:53, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Like all of those 20-year empires, the Caliphate will fall. Furthermore, you cannot equate a Spanish conquest of a native nation with those of the Caliphate. You fail to realize the severity of your implausibility. Think about it. Russia is enough to convict you; then you add in Adal, Morocco, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Central Asia, India, the Syriac plot to invade Cyprus, the Algerian plot to "invade Europe,ETC and you get the grand prize for most implausible map game move. My point being that the Caliphate is way overdue for collapse.AP (talk) 05:55, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I am going to say this ONCE.

Cut the arguing.

And, for the record? SS is correct.

Lordganon (talk) 05:55, January 2, 2013 (UTC)