Talk:Principia Moderni II (Map Game)

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Algorithm Format
This is to make things easy for everyone since I find myself doing a heap of algorythms and its a pain in the ass to flp back and forth with the rules.

Nation X
Total:
 * Location:
 * Tactical Advantage:
 * Strength:
 * Military Development:
 * Expansion:
 * Motive:
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age:
 * Population:
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Maps
Maps will be updated every 50 years.

Map Issues
''' Please address any map issues here. They will be wiped at the start of each turn the map is updated. '''


 * The Caliphate should be the same colour as Qoyunlu, as they are not vassals of it.
 * Georgia should be annexed to the Circassia, with the exeption of a 2 pixel diametre, which should also be coloured green.
 * Trebizond should be the light green colour that you've put as the rest of the Caliphate.
 * Egyptian Yemen should be a different country, as it was agreed to upon the entrance of Yemen.
 * Alodia should be left with the light green.
 * Ometlacatl is still on Jamacia. Please change it to Hispaniola, at Port-au-Prince -.-
 * All fixed.
 * Whatever, close enough CourageousLife (talk) 00:56, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Grissoms is not a vassal of Tyrolia. Tyrolia simply ended the civil disorder there, nothing more.
 * MAP ISSUES WITH THE 1480 MAP (do not wipe)
 * Kashmir and Nepal are vassals of Tibet; they should be the same colour as it.
 * The results of the Muscovy-Novgorod-Poland conflict are not shown.

Colonization Order
Tada! Here is a list of nations and the year they can start colonizing away from this main continent. Australia and Oceanic islands are not open to colonies yet.


 * European nations (including Moscovy and Novgorod) can establish colonies in the Americas from the first date, then can start colonizing in the rest of Africa and Asia 30 years later
 * Middle Eastern nations + Ethiopia & India can establish colonies across the rest of Africa and Asia from the first date, then they can start colonizing the Americas 40 years later.
 * Asian nations can colonize the West Coast of America, New Guinea and the East Coast of Africa from their first date, the rest of the world is opened 40 years later.
 * Tribal nations can colonize other continents after naval tech reaches a suitable level.
 * No coastline? Bad luck. DEAL WITH IT!

Europe

 * Austria 1535 (tiny navy, terrible position)
 * Bavaria
 * Brandenburg 1512 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Burgundy 1509 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Castille 1503 (large navy, good position)
 * Cyprus (too small a navy and a bad position to boot)
 * Denmark 1504 (large navy, ok position)
 * England 1502 (large navy, good position)
 * Florence 1510 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Georgia (about to get owned)
 * Milan 1520 (vassal navy, bad position)
 * Moscovy
 * Naples 1508 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Novgorod 1525 (mid navy, terrible position)
 * Ottomans 1550 (mid navy, worst ever possible position ever)
 * Papal States 1525 (small navy, bad position)
 * Poland 1515 (mid navy, bad position)
 * Portugal 1499 (large navy, prime position)
 * Saxony
 * Scotland 1506 (small navy, good position)
 * Switzerland
 * Venice 1507 (large navy, bad position)

Middle East

 * Ag Qoyunlu 1522 (mid navy, ok position)
 * Ethiopia 1536 (small navy, good postion)
 * Mamluks 1511 (mid navy, good position)
 * Oman 1515 (mid navy, good position)
 * Vijayanagar 1532 (mid navy, ok position)

Asia

 * China 1527 (mid navy, ok position, retarded naval growth thanks to emperor's land focus)
 * Japan 1502 (large navy, prime position in Asia)
 * Korea 1514 (mid navy, ok postion)
 * Majapahit 1518 (large navy, ok position)
 * Manchuria 1533 (small navy, good position but new nation)
 * Siam 1528 (mid navy, bad position)

Discussion

 * And América? aztec, chiche itza, inca? we have navy too Zetsura (talk) 17:31, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * YTour navies are rowboats, sailboats with very small sail, and rowboats. No colonial power there.[[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * im not sure about aztec and mayas, but the incas have ships, and they go to polynesia, acording the spanish cronist in 1460 aprox, the inca Tupac Yupanqui make a trip with 10,000 man to polynesia, and the Kon tiki voyague make in 1960 (in not sure the year) is an expample the this is totally real.Zetsura (talk) 20:51, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And what about the Zulu?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 17:56, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria can colonize sooner than the Papal States, despite the fact that the States have been improving military on both sides of the peninsula, have been establishing territories through with the encouragement of the navy, while Austria has a tiny sliver of coastal land and would have to go around an entire peninsula to get to the Americas? Other than that, perhaps we should make a sort of algorithm so we have a bit more reliability, not just mod assumptions. ChrisL123 (talk) 18:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anybody have noticed how all complaints until now have started with the letter A?--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 18:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Austria, America, Aragon. XD [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * And Aragon? Isn't Aragon in a good position to colonize Africa as well as in an insanely perfect place to colonize America? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aragon would be in a good position, but Portugal is still the best by far. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, but where is Aragon on the list? [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 18:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that it would be somewhere around 1505 and 1510.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyways, I changed the Papal States and Austrians around, because the Austrian position is worse than the Ottomans really, and the Papal states would have a bietter military. On the subject of having an algorithm, that seems a bit hard to make, one of the major factors is location, and that is hard to create any algorithm for. This is making me think that the position of having the first sailor to arrive in the Americas from Europe should be Portugal. Not only are they currently the ones with the earliest possible date, but Collie has had the Portugese to quite a bit of exploring already, more than many other nations with early dates. LurkerLordB (Talk) 18:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I could try to make an algorithm, with all the key factors needed. Just note that tallying the results would probably be like golf, where a lower score means they get to start earlier. Sounds confusing, but hopefully I'll make it work. Stay tuned! ChrisL123 (talk) 19:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, but then again, most of the time, i'm just repeating here what the Portuguese explorers actually did during this period of time, and when it come to explorers, Colombo presented his exploration project to Portugal twice.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 19:48, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * well he did but i think you should make that colombus is represented by an rng with all the nations in western europe, the one with the highest score and the best points in the system in here can get being the first in reaching americas, after all i think it should be like in OTL, just a random lucky guy and a random lucky nation like spain Sine dei gloriem (talk) 19:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Few European nations are powerful enough to get Columbus to come to them. Moreso there was nothing lucky or random about it in OTL. [[Image:IMPERIAL NY-SPQR 1.png|25px]][[Image:Regen Flag.png|30px|border]] Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 19:57, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * i say lucky because as far as every european the world was flat and as it seems to happen in otl colombus was rejected a few times, because no one would pay for something they didn't thought possible such as this travel, and he was lucky enough to have convinced the kings of spain of doing it as far as i know Sine dei gloriem (talk) 20:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the first time that Colombo presented his project to Portugal, João II refused it after consulting experts, who told him that the travel distance that Colombo had planned was too low.in the second time, in 1488, he refused because a way to India (arond Africa) had already been discovered.Then, even the Castillian experts also told their monarch, when Colombo presented his proposal there, that the distance planned was too low.However, to keep Colombo from taking his ideas elsewhere, and perhaps to keep their options open, the Catholic Monarchs gave him an annual allowance of 12,000 maravedis and in 1489 furnished him with a letter ordering all cities and towns under their domain to provide him food and lodging at no cost.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:07, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought China had a large navy. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 21:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * HAD is the crucial word. Thanks to your emperor's idea that naval exploration is a waste of time after Zheng He's voyage, the Chinese navy has suffered to the point where Japanese pirates could shut down most Chinese shipping.Scandinator (talk) 00:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about the Zulu. We have a coastline and have developed are Navy from the beginning. Enclavehunter (talk) 21:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Developing a navy from scratch=shitty tiny naval with no capacity even after 20 years. Your best chance is to reverse engineer a modern ship. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Muscovy gets a coastline, it can colonize, right? (hint, hint) The Royal Guns (talk) 22:42, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * look, you wont have to worry about not having colonies as long as the the Commonwealth of Great, Little, and White Russia(Commonwealth/Confederation of All the Russias)[hint-hint invasion of poland]-Lx (leave me a message) 23:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes you can but I would recommend via Poland, You would have to beat and take over all of Poland and Lithuania... Go through the Crimea if you can. (hinthint, nudgenudge) Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well Novgorod has control over most of the baltic via the hanseatic league, and has de-facto control over the Hanseatic Navy, and the navy will be built up continuously as long as there are people that sign up, we will build more ships...although we do need to broker an alliance with Danemark or Sweden to pass through the baltic with warships, but we have no problem passing through the baltic with explorers or traders, all we need to do is install Hanseatic trade posts along the Kattegat strait, and we have de facto free passage, so long as the league has interest, and resources of a new continent are a strong motivator and I believe that the hasea will help a novgorodian expidition leave the baltic.-Lx (leave me a message) 23:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * You and what league? Burgundy has no wish to be in a trade league considering they have the largest port on the Atlantic, Friesland is Burgundian now, Denmark trades through Stockholm, Brandenburg through Venice, Poland through Venice. All you have is Prussia trading through you. Even Scotland and England with their Novgorodian trade posts still send most of their goods to Antwerp. Scandinator (talk) 00:57, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Stockholm is a member of the Hansa, the hansa has an actual navy that patrols the baltic sea, Burgundy has trade agreements with novgorod and is still part of the league, and In northern germany, it is not venice who holds influence(eh-hem how can you control trade that far away eh?) in northern germany, but the New Hansa controled by Novgorod and the Imperial Trade Guild of the HRE(I think that is what it is called), that was formed because of the apparent demise of the Hansa...an oportunity novgorod took to take control of it. I think it was Lurker that said that it was impossible for venice's influence to reach that far north if novgorod was keeping the league alive, not to mention i spent the last 10 years at least trying to undo the dammage you did aswell as reorgonize the Hansa-Lx (leave me a message) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I now have Manchuria, do we get the "good position" perk? Thanks. Flag_of_South_Korea.png PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 12:22, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You didn't take enough of Manchuria to make a difference. LurkerLordB (Talk) 17:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Surely Korea is in a better position than Manchuria, Manchuria has very few warm water ports... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:10, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * We Muscovians now have a coastline. Uncross us please. (We have one on the baltic as part of the Poland treaty, and have a treaty with Novgorod allowing us to put our ships through their ports (and vice versa)). The Royal Guns (talk) 20:16, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Siamese-Malaccan War
can someone do the algorithm

Colonization Order Algorithm (Proposal)
As promised, I have written up an algorithm proposal that lists several key factors needed in order to successfully colonize. While it is mostly for American colonization, I have included some for south Asian nations. The algorithm works by tallying numbers that can be found through common sense, geographical details and player's turns. Unlike most algorithms, I'd assume players would want a lower score, because the algorithm determines the year by tallying up the results and adding 1500 to the total. I have included an example for Portugal and the Papal States.

Location
Add all that apply (e.g., Southern Europe and Central Mediterranean)
 * In Southern Europe (i.e., below the ): -3
 * In Eastern Asia: -2
 * In the western Mediterranean: -1
 * In Northern Europe (i.e., above the ): 0
 * In the center of the Mediterranean: +1
 * In Southern Asia: +2
 * In the eastern Mediterranean: +3
 * In Northern Africa: +4
 * In Western Asia: +5
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Touching the Pacific: *1.5

Travel

 * Traveling to Eastern Africa: +5
 * Traveling across the Indian Ocean: +8
 * Traveling across the Atlantic: +10
 * Traveling across the Pacific: +12
 * Traveling to Southern Africa: +15

Availability
Add all that apply
 * Ships must travel through a straight (e.g Gibraltar, Bosphorus): +5
 * Nations rely on a vassal for navy (e.g. Milan): +6
 * Ships must travel around a peninsula to colonize: +7
 * e.g., Novgorod around Scandinavia, Venice around Italy, Brandenburg around Denmark
 * Amount of coastland:
 * Miniscule coast (e.g. Austria) : +10
 * Little coast (e.g. Poland): +7
 * Nation's border halfly consists of a coast (e.g., Portugal, Papal States): +3
 * Majority coastal (e.g. England): -1

Naval establishment

 * Navy was created __ years ago:
 * 1-10: +40
 * 10-20: +30
 * 20-50: +15
 * 50-100: +5
 * 100-400: -3
 * More than 400 years: -4
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*x), where x is the number of turns of naval expansion
 * New to colonialism: +8
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Vassals/territories: (-0.5(x)), where x represents the number of vassals/territories
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(x)), where x represents the number of islands (on the map?)

Navy size

 * Tiny navy: +15
 * Small navy: +10
 * Medium navy: +5
 * Large navy: -3

Motive
Add all that apply:
 * For exploration: +2
 * Religious reasons: +3
 * For profit: +3
 * For land: +4

Other
Add all that apply
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2
 * In economic ruin: +8
 * Lack of funding due to wars: +5
 * Economically stable: -2

Examples
Note that these examples are for colonizing the Americas, as shown by +10.


 * Portugal: 1500-(3*1.5)+10+3-3+(-0.5*8)-1+(-0.25(9))-3+3-2 = 1496.25 or 1496
 * Aragon: 1498 to 1507
 * England: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.
 * Venice:  1500-3+1+10+5+7+3-3+(-0.5*10)+1+(-0.5*3)-3+3-1-2 = 1511.5 or 1512
 * Papal States: 1500-3+1+10+5+3+(-0.5*10)+(-0.5*3 territories)+1+10+3-1+5 = 1523.5 or 1524
 * Refer to this for a better detailed analysis.

Must say, it works out pretty well. But it's always opened to other factors. ChrisL123 (talk) 00:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
This needs some tweaking, We have Middle Eastern and Asian nations that need their own little algorithm for travel. Those numbers also have to separate for even the Europeans. Suggestion: BTW this is for reaching, NOT establishing colonies, you can establish a colony in an area after 40% of the number for the region in years has passed. e.g. For Europe: 4 years after reaching America, 10 years after crossing the Pacific. Rough numbers still. Scandinator (talk) 01:11, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * You're right, I never considered the other continents for that. Very nice. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

For Aragon, using this, I get -3.5 plus whatever the motive is, so earliest would be 1499.5 and latest would be 1501.5 for the Americas. Fascinating. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 01:20, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not quite, by my calculations it's 1500-3*1.5+3+10+6 (unless you want to the ships to go through Gibraltar) +3-4+(-0.5*9)+5-1-2 = 1511 for the Americas, plus the motive. Might be confusing, but if we get to accepting the algorithm, I could make a page for each nation for us to know the justification of the numbers. ChrisL123 (talk) 01:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do touching the Altantic and Pacific have *1.5 modifiers, if the lowest score is the best? Also, the straights and peninsulas should compound. For example, Moldova would have to go through the Bosporous, and through Gibraltar.
 * Also, I should really hope no one would get early than Portugal for Europe, with Norway and Castille's players being pretty much gone (I'm going to actually remove them from the list soon), there really isn't any serious competition. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is what I calculate for Aragon:


 * Location: (-3)+(-1)*1.5 = -4.5
 * Travel: Across the Atlantic: +10
 * Availability: Amount of coastland: +3 (Aragon's entire southern coast is longer in pixels than the border with France and Bearn, but the puny northern coast which borders Navarre (Navarre is NOT a vassal, it is a STATE of the Crown of Aragon, just like Aragon and formerly Naples and the such, which borders the Atlantic.)
 * Naval establishment: -3 (Navy was established in the late 12th Century, although comparable to the current Chichen Itzan navy then.)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*9) = -4.5
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3))= -1 (The islands off the coast.)
 * Navy size: Medium? +5 (Navy was pretty big, conquering half of the Mediterranean coastline countries, but I'll go with 5)
 * Motive: Depends. In most cases it would be 2 or the second three.
 * Other: Economically stable, -2; have a territory in the same continent; +1
 * The "won a war with the navy" one only counts in-game. ChrisL123 (talk)
 * Total: (Motive is 2, Navy size is 5) = 1506 (Motive is 2, Navy size is large) = 1498 (Motive is three, navy size is medium) = 1507 (Motive is 3, Navy size is large) = 1499

So at best, 1498, and at worst, 1507. Not bad. Hasta la vista, baby. (I'll be back.) 03:26, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoops, I did say military expansion, it should say naval expansion. And I counted 9 turns of naval expansion by Aragon, so (-0.5*9). I also fixed your calculations. Not bad indeed. ChrisL123 (talk) 03:54, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Those *1.5 are multiplying numbers that are negative, so it would increase their value negatively, which would benefit them. (e.g., southern Europe [-3] touching the Atlantic [*1.5] means [-2*1.5] = -4.5) As for Portugal, they should still be the winner. I've done Venice and Aragon, two big players that I could think of, and they're over, though England will still have to be calculated. ChrisL123 (talk) 02:52, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Note that I was referring to Portugal, assuming they don't get devestated by some war. LurkerLordB (Talk) 02:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

England would have...

England = 1500 + (0 x 1.5) + 10 - 1 - 4 - (1.5 x 11) - (0.25 x 3) - 3 + 3 - 1 + 2 - 2 =

1500 - 0 + 13 + 17 - 1 - 1 = 1528 I consider this algorithm brilliant, thoguh some things may be should be changed (something to make me reach America first, if possible ^^) in somethings, but I think is fair enough. --Galaguerra1 (talk) 03:59, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I expand my navy almost everyturn, I suppose it would be around 11 to 13 in the last 15 years... I calculate 11.
 * 2) I count Ireland, Man and the Dodecanesian Islands as colonized, that's 3.
 * 3) I expand for profit, to find a way to India.
 * 4) All my wars I have won with the navy, thoguh also every one that I've lost.
 * 5) I consider myself as economically stable.
 * 6) I round 16.5 (1.5 x 11) to 17.
 * 7) I round 0.75 (0.25 x 3) to 1.

You did a few things wrong. I'll show you:
 * In Northern Europe: 0
 * Touching the Atlantic: *1.5
 * Crossing Atlantic: +10
 * Majority coastal: -1
 * Naval origin: -4 (More than 400 years)
 * Naval expansion: (-0.5*11) = -5.5
 * Have a territory in the same continent: +1
 * Islands colonized: (-0.25(3)) = -0.75
 * Large navy: -3
 * For profit: +3
 * Won a war using the navy: -1
 * Lost a war using the navy: +2 (I think the English-Scottish incident counts as a loss?)
 * Economically stable: -2

-unsigned post by someone
 * Total: 1500+(0*1.5)+10-1-4+(-0.5*11)+1+(-0.25*3)-3+3-1+2-2= 1498.75 or 1499.

The English-Scottish incident never turned into a full on war. However, I wouldn't know if the English navy should be counted as lasting for more than 400 years, they didn't have a full-on, modern navy until the reign of Henry VIII in OTL. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also, I think we might want to change the islands colonized thing to specify that it is islands a significant distance away from the mainland, like at least the north-south-length of Italy away, islands just off the coast shouldn't count. LurkerLordB (Talk) 12:51, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, If you control an island a few km from your main nation, its not a colony. England for example can only claim that Greek isle. Scandinator (talk) 13:36, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Also for the Venetian calculation, Venice is a coastal state, the entire nation is based off an archipelago off the Italian Peninsula. The navy has been around since the 9th century where it was used against Dalmatian pirates. We also have vassals and islands which a located far away from the main section of Venice.. Scandinator (talk) 13:49, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I still don't really see the need for this algorithm, the people who are going to be leading the list either way are going to be the same really. Also, I think that both this algorithm and the other list might be accelerating the process too much, this would have all of Europe colonizing the New World by 1540 or so, when historically only a handful of nations were able to colonize at all. LurkerLordB (Talk) 14:55, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. look at Courland.they were pretty much as well-located as Novgorod, and only were able to colonize in the mid 17th century.and this having a large merchant fleet.and they failed eventually.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 16:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is if we forced players to wait months and months to expand they would not be happy. Scandinator (talk) 04:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Why me?
Why are the mods targetting me with their events? This isn't fair as I shouldn't have to deal with unfair targetting while I am so busy with school. AgentMars (talk) 11:55, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if you feel this way, but it is simply luck of the draw. We're doing a Khanate-like thing and they're invading Europe. Your nation happens to be in Europe. Don't think we're unfairly targeting you. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 13:23, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

You also never told anyone if you were still playing. Inactive nations can cause a lot of problems so we're not just going to leave your nation alone while you're away cause that isn't fair to everyone else & can make things get implausible. Please let us know if you are not able to play. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 15:56, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

You were gone for 17 days, we have explicit rules stating that people gone for more than a week are counted as inactive. You got 10 days exta time when we could have been tearing your nation apart. If you can't post once a week, then I am sorry, but you are too busy to play this game. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

LLB, we can't collapse every nation that a player leaves behind for 7 days. We left Zagoria alone for 100+ years before collapsing the AGC and even longer for DetectiveKenny and even DeanSims. I think we should give AgentMars a bit of a break with the Khanates and the Russians. I respect the fact that he is busy, we can't all have perfect lives of bliss and free time and someother users post very irregularly for no reason, and just continue to find whole intact nations. He also did in fact tell us that he was very busy: "Sorry I haven't posted much. I've been rather busy." as posted in 1461. That is better than what a lot of other players have left us.

Now since you demonstrated what could happen so kindly on Poland, I might not be able to post regularly over the next 5 weeks thanks to university examinations for entry. Collie is taking over as mapmaker over that period of time. I expect to see a whole intact Venice by the end of that period and I will be doing random posts here and there. Scandinator (talk) 04:30, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

It's to late now, we can't retcon 2 whole years of posts by him and the Russian states. He was much less active than Detective Kenny, Zagoria, and even DeanSims, all of whom had played the game for months, before his break, and a semi-warning isn't enough. Detectivekenny and Zagoria both left explicit warnings that they would be gone for an extended period of time as well. We can't declare every new player who joins for the first time, plays for 2-3 turns, then disappears as active. The Russians were planing to attack him for years before the Mongol attack, and you can't force players to leave people alone. I had been planning for the Mongols to attack Lithuania anyways, whether they had a player or not, as attacking anywhere else would have pit them against a much more dedicated player or the Dimurats. Since Yankovic explicitly asked me not to have the Dimurats invaded, that left only 1 place for the Mongols to attack without going against a player who had been active every turn. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:11, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

True, however I believe we should leave him a way to regain some of the lost areas IF he posts more often. Scandinator (talk) 11:17, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Poland itself hasn't been hit by the Mongols, and though they've lost the war with the Russians, they aren't going to be totally annexed. Lithuania is going to be in chaos for quite some time, easy enough to pick up large pieces. LurkerLordB (Talk) 11:24, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Scandi and LLB, I can give no guarantees that I will post more with my exam period for uni entrance so soon (I am in the same grade as Scandi IRL and he brought me here after a shit-ton of persuasion lol) but I will try to post each day. AgentMars (talk) 12:36, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

There's going to be no more invasions of that nature that you would have to worry about, so now the only threat your nation would face if inactive would be other player-nations (which I can't control). Your nation won't break apart in revolts unless you are gone for like a month. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:52, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Muscovy

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Muscovy (L), Rostov (MV), Yaroslavl (MV). Brandenburg (S), Aragon (S), Navarre (S) : 14
 * Development: 26 (didn't realize it was *2!)
 * Expansion: -5
 * Motive: 4
 * Chance: 2083/1835 * 3.1415


 * hundredth digit = 6
 * Age: Old (+5)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -6
 * Total: 65

Novogorod

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 1
 * Strength: Novgorod (L) Brandenburg (S), Aragon (S), Navarre (S)/Pskov(MV): 12
 * Development: (9*2)=18 or (12*2)=24(if pre-kazan counts)
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 4
 * Chance: 2935/1836 * 3.1415


 * hundredth digit = 9
 * Age: Ancient (-5)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: -3
 * Total: 56-62(if pre-kazan counts)

Poland-Lithuiania

 * Location: 5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Poland (L +4), Lithuania (MV +2), Venice (S), Modena, (SV), Ferrara (SV), Mantua (SV), Siena (SV), Lacques (SV): 13
 * Development: 4
 * Expansion: -1
 * Motive: 10
 * Chance: 8
 * Edit Count: 8
 * Time: 01:07 = 7
 * 8/7*3.14 = 3.58857142857
 * Age: Average: 0 (1386)
 * Population: 9
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:-5
 * -5 (Mongol Invasion)
 * Total: 53

Result
The allies can seize ((135/188)*2)-1 = 43.61% of P-L territory. The war will last three years: ((43.61)*(1-1/6)) = 36.34, allowing us to seize 36.34% of their territory, toppling their government and spliting it down the middle (I call coastline).

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:25, October 2, 2012 (UTC)y

That would be veru awkward and bad for novgorod trade...you can get the coastline if the Russian league is formed anyways. Poland may be a part of the Russian Confederation and there would be one naval force for the entire pact, but different fleets commanded by diffeerent nations(the Neva fleet-me, the Polish(agent's) and Moscovian(your) fleets...whatever you decide to name it) It would be much more lausible if we do a north-south split or even just have a joint occupation before reforming the state into the confederation of great russia and the poles.-Lx (leave me a message) 13:15, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, actually, Lithuania (as Grand Duchy) could be counted as Russian, som it would just be Federation of the Russias... See my proposal on Mars' talkpage too.

The Royal Guns (talk) 19:28, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Novgorod is involved in this war; Lx and I had a prior agreement over that. And guys... hot damn. Does this mean we get more land outside P-L? The Royal Guns (talk) 18:55, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I think you did the math wrong... Using Google, ((112/(123))*2)-1 = 0.82113.. or 82%. Not sure how you got over 200%. ChrisL123 (talk) 20:08, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, 67+45+21 = 133..so, it would be approximately 69% of territory.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 20:28, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

But Poland isn't helping the Muscovite/Novgorod coalition..... Aren't they? ChrisL123 (talk) 20:44, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

How about novgorod has over 2 million population at least since teh additon of Kazan and has worked on its land army or navy every year except the ones where I did not post. and developement is x2 for each turn. and ok fine I vassalized pskov with an ultimatum and bribes that and my war with kazan should be my only negatives, and much more positive...and I think that it is my algorithm result+your algorithm result to be teh total area, not both combined. And moscow does not have 10x the population of poland, at most maybe no 2x all the russian naitons and 4x Russia+kazan max population factor,-Lx (leave me a message) 20:31, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Poland has a population of 8 million. The Russian states combined had barely 5 million. Get your numbers straight traitor. Yes I'm talking to you Lx, you posted that we had an alliance (which we do not) to get to Crimea and subvert the Venetian trade league of which Poland is a part of. Its a jolly nice surprize to get back online to PMII after working your butt off for a week and a half to finish all your homework so I can use the computer to find my nation under attack by one nation. So I ask Novgorod for help... and get invaded again. Lovely game this is.AgentMars (talk) 23:32, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

You don't even control a quarter of your nation! Just a tiny bit near Belarus! You have a population of 5 digits tops! The Royal Guns (talk) 23:57, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Also, there was nothing wrong with my first chance calculation.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:00, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, he still controls Poland...

His population is still decimated. The Khanates attacked the WHOLE nation, and left it in ruins.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:17, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

No... The mod event said Lithuania. I'm taking the neutral stance here people, and you guys are making the algorithm a lot lower for him than what it should be...

Also, do not omit the calculations for  anything. It makes me suspicious of cheating.

A) your algorithm has no mathematical basis I can see, and B) as shown here, attack Lithuania and you ARE attacking Poland. Attack Yaroslavl (kinda hard, yes) and you are attacking Muscovy. Attack the Falklands, and you are attacking Britain. C) I did not omit them. D) Muscovy has 67, not Novgorod. The Royal Guns (talk) 00:25, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Stop putting in the wrong algorithm! We don't use that in Principia Moderni. And you're ommiting the calculations for chance. I can see how you'd think it's just taking percentages, but that isn't so. Otherwise there would be a historical implausibility with nations annexing each other all the time. And they attacked the whole country, but never invaded it. I invade Falkland islands, does that mean I'm invading the British Isles?

WE DO USE THAT IN PM, dude. Check the rules. And sign your posts, please.

Good point. It's more like invading Scotland- still attacking England.

In anycase, the mod event says that they only now control a small corner of Poland.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:42, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I've seen the rules plenty of times. I see them very often, just to see if I'm right. I suggest you check the rules. Algorithm = ((y/(z+y))*2)-1.

We have a new coalition algorithm, where two nations can combine their scores against one. The algorithm results are correct. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:57, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Uhh.. that's what I did, Saam. Confusion be occuring, methinks.

The Royal Guns (talk) 00:58, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

For a coalition algorithm, all of the nations that have declared full-on war would have their own algorithm section (with them being the leader, their nation age and military buildup, etc.). The real change is for the results. Then, all the nations on each side would be added up together, and the winning side gets to take territory from each nation. However, the nations that do better on each side would get more, while nations that did really bad may be temporarily occupied. Saamwiil, the Humble 01:04, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Since Poland and Lithuania are in personal union meaning they are ruled by the same king, the resources and population of Poland AND Lithuania should therefore be used in the algorythm. Since Lithuania has hit the dust, Poland's population will be used and the total population of Poland at this time is about 7 million which is more than the two Russian states combined. However annexing the entirety of Poland-Lithuania even in its weakened state is implausable, there will be no splitting down the middle and Poland itself is too far away for the Russian states to control at the time being. Scandinator (talk) 04:15, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

novgorod system of goernement is esentialy a direct democracy...I think we migh be able to keep some control purely because of that fact...but with some changes.-Lx (leave me a message) 12:57, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Saxony has stated they are sending military aid to Poland. 77topaz (talk) 20:23, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think that if that's how the algroithm is done for coalitions, that they should be redone. Say someone has war score of 60 but this guy gets 10 people whose nations are a dot compared to the other nation, they could win on participation points only, excluding everything else.

When I read the rules, I thought it would just be an adding of the percentages. Saamwiil, the Humble 21:39, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The whole point of the coalition algorithm was to differentiate between the participation aid, which is just a few spare troops being sent, and full-on war. The coalition algorithm is totally realistic: two nations on the same side in a war combine their strength versus the combined strength of the nations on the other side of the war. How can any representation be more realistic? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:45, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The example I gave, a lot of very small nations (Like OTL San Marino) taking on one huge powerful nation (Say like OTL China) and win.This wouldn't be very realistic, I do not think. Saamwiil, the Humble 23:56, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mongols
Do not worry everyone, the Mongol Khanates are collapsing for good now, so you won't have to worry about any of them again. I just wanted to give the Central Asian Turks and Mongols one last conquest, unlike in OTL. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:50, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Where they not meant to attack the Caliphate? I mean we could always have someone rise to power similar in Timurid as the Caliphate try to annex Timurid. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:17, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

It was slightly short lived, no? Shouldn't it last like a decade more at least. Saamwiil, the Humble 22:35, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Oh god please no...they annoy me to no end!!!!!-Lx (leave me a message) 22:41, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but I mean. It lasted less than a decade, no. Isn't that slightly implausible? Wouldn't it last at least say 20 years, then a break up? Saamwiil, the Humble 22:44, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

They did attack the Caliphate, they took over the Crimean Khanate and drove a some Turkic tribes into Circassia I think causing them trouble. That type of empire was inherently unstable, after the death of its leaders its bound to collapse. I also asked you on the Caliphate talk page if you wanted them to invade you, and I got no response at all so I assumed no. They also lasted for about 16 years as the Dual Khanate, with the individual Neo-Oirats and Kazakh Khanates lasting a few years before that. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:45, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I see, but since we're player nations, should they attack us formal before getting Crimea? Saamwiil, the Humble 22:49, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Really, the NPC members of the DME should have been treated like the NPC members of the HRE from the beginning, I think it was a mistake you let a giant multinational union like that give people control over a ton of multiple nations so easily. LurkerLordB (Talk) 22:57, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

We are much more centralized than the HRE and all the provinces in it are either player nations or have been conquered/vassalized by a player nation. What is the problem? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 23:06, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

So you are saying saamwill has 8 vassals? I recalled that as also against the rules Scandinator (talk) 23:59, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

No. The rules were changed. You just can't split off nations in times of war. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:00, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

No the vassals rule never changed. 2 vassals at most. Scandinator (talk) 00:38, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should just say that the total area and population of all vassals should not exceed more than 50% of your main nation, and then make it unlimited. Then simplify all the turn business to just say that you can either build up your military or non-colonial expand in your main nation and its vassals per turn, without this +.5 turns thing that no one really follows anyways. LurkerLordB (Talk) 00:41, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

They aren't even my current vassals, due realise. Having vassals within the empire is illegal. They are former vassals, and conquered territories. In some cases they just broke away for better administration purposes, like Circassia. Dulkadir, another example was a former vassal, but joined because it was my vassal at the time. Saamwiil, the Humble 00:44, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Keep 'em around one more year. They've got until this turn is over where their 1.5x multiplier in wars is still valid. Huh huh. CrimsonAssassin (talk) 00:57, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah Saamwiil just had his vassals join the Caliphate as provinces. Think of it how a player nation will sometimes merge with its vassals (this was done several times last game). You are also allowed to have parts of your nation break away, which we are going to do because some of the provinces in the Caliphate are much to large (e.g. Mamluk Egypt and Qoyunlu) and some parts are separated by a fair distance too (e.g. Ottomans in OTL Turkey & Bulgaria). VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:39, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

How this system works? from what i'm noticing, it would be necessary for this Caliphate to be extremely decentralized.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 15:59, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well regional governance is enforced by the ruler of each province and their provincial government, but they are all below the general law of the Caliphate. We have to have some decentralization because the technology doesn't exist to control such a large empire with a single government yet. Plus it gives everyone a say in how their homeland is run rather than being told what to do by a bureaucrat hundreds of miles away. Have a look at the Imperial Muslim Treaty which is basically our constitution if you want to know more. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:48, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Granada?
Where is my beautiful Granada? I see no wars that conquered me and I technicly am still playing just taking an extended break(school). Also never agreed with the Caliphate. I think it will be more interesting if there is at least one muslim nation that isnt part of the caliphate. Right! Right!! Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 01:02, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Granada is still up, but you gave no warning that you was not going to play for a along time, we needed to save up colors, and, we ended up declaring you as a NPC.but you were not conquered.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 08:29, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

If your going on an extended break then leave a message so we know where you have gone. Otherwise we will have to assume your inactive & give control of your nation away. Crim's post below is a perfect example of this. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:41, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

K here is my post: Taking extended break have school so I will post when I can but if I don't post for a while I am not inactive. Hockey is coming up soon aswell so I will post when posibble. Willster22 (User talk:Willster22)

The Caliphate was going around annexing Muslim nations with no algorithms all over the place. I'll hit them with something. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:40, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

That makes me oh so happy. (: Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 21:43, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Head's Up
I'm headed to New York City over the weekend and may be unable to post until I get back on Tuesday. Right after I watch the damn weeping angels episode of Doctor Who ;_;

CrimsonAssassin (talk) 01:03, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Kingdoms on the list
Hey i like to know if is possible that you can put your manes on the list of countrys to know what belong to who, if you have a vassal you put your name there or if you have a part of that country Quiari (talk) 04:07, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether I understand your post correctly, but if I do, that's what the list is supposed to do and is doing. 77topaz (talk) 05:20, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah put your name next to the nations you control. Also put in (brackets) whether they are a vassal, puppet, dynastic union, etc. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:43, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for my writing, what I meant is that the map shows that certain regions are the color of a country, but in the list of countries these regions are empty, no name of who they belong to, or if are vassals of someone. So I say it would be nice if everyone put their names there to know who belongs. And also if anyone has part of a country such as Portugal in Morocco, or Venice in Crimea, etc. Just my idea... Quiari (talk) 14:20, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah that is already a rule that you have to put your name next to your nation, vassals and puppets on the list. However we don't have any such rule for colonies being listed on the sign-up list. If we did list colonies, then the list would be very large so instead we just shown them on the map in the same colour as ruling nation's colour and they are also then listed on the territories page. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:42, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Portugal

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 6 (greater colonial empire [5]/Attacker's adavantage) (1)
 * Strength: Portugal (L), Granada (M), Naples (M):10
 * Development: 26
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 3
 * Chance: 1
 * Edit Count: 3001
 * Time: 18:06 = 48
 * 3001/48*pi = 196.414991
 * Age: Average: 0 (1385)
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:0
 * Total: 67

Castille

 * Location: 4
 * Tactical Advantage: 2 (high ground)
 * Strength: Castille (L):4
 * Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: 5
 * Chance: 4
 * 3001/48*pi = 196.414991
 * Age: Old: 5 (1369 or 1230)
 * Population: 9
 * Population:7
 * Population less than five times bigger: 2
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars:0
 * Total: 43

Discussion
Questions: --Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 21:17, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) There is a 5 point bonus for having a larger colonial empire, but i t can be used in this situation?

Yes, Portugal has a larger colonial empire. LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:54, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

The part about 1230 or 1369 is because as i see it, the change of dynasty from the Burgundians to the Trastámaras in 1369 might count as a government change, but it says on the territory page that the last govenment change was in 1230.--Collie Kaltenbrunner (talk) 22:13, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Caliphate (Led by Qoyunlu)
Total: 79*1.5 118.5
 * Location: +4
 * Tactical Advantage: +1
 * Strength: Qoyunlu (L +4), Circassia (MV +2), Dulkadir (MV +2), Ramazan (MV +2), Oman (M +3), Shaybah (MV +2), Crimea (SV +1), Ottoman Empire (M +3), Wallachia (MV +2), Egypt (M +3), Hafisids (MV +2), Zayyanids (MV +2) 28
 * Military Development: +30
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5 (Defending Claims on Crimea)
 * Chance:
 * Edit Count: 943
 * UTC Time: 4:29 2*9 = 8
 * 943/8*3.14 = 16.8775
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 7 +10 17
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: (Hafsids -8) (Crimea -1) (Georgia -3), (Epirus -1) -13

Cossacks
Total: 23
 * Location: +5
 * Tactical Advantage: 0
 * Strength: Cossacks (L +4) 4
 * Military Development: 0
 * Expansion: 0
 * Motive: +5 (Defending the mainland)
 * Chance: 2 (random.org)
 * Edit Count:
 * UTC Time:
 * Nation Age: -10
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Recent Wars: 0

Results
((118.5/(23+118.5))*2)-1 is 67.49%. The war will last one year (if nothing changes) (67.49)*(1-1/(2(1))) yields 33.745% allowing us to topple their government. Former Cossack land will be administred directly by the Caliphate, until stable.

Discussion
I didn't add: Granada, Yemen, Bahmani Sultanate, Koli, possibly Gujurati, Yemen and East Yemen, as I deemed them to be too far. To be involved in a minor conflict like this... Saamwiil, the Humble 21:42, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Moderator event was changed, the Cossack's didn't take any of the Crimean land. Are you still going to carry this out? LurkerLordB (Talk) 21:47, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I did all of the algorithm to the war, so yeah. Also, I declared war on the Dual Khanate before their collapse, how do I treat it? Saamwiil, the Humble 21:49, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Oh I see you did it yourself. Thanks, less work for me! I'm bloody tired, its been a busy day... VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:55, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Russia still occupuies the cossack land, we just conquered Poland-Lithunia. you will be declaring war on Russia. We want kiev back!

No, I declare war on the Cossacks before you tried occupying their land. However, depending on how loyal you are to non-agression/help against orthodox, and how much land in White Russia, I might cede you a part. Saamwiil, the Humble 12:02, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hahah. Funny. Not happening. Muscovy + Novgorod + (possibly) Poland adds up to well over 150. We'll piss over you if you do this. Plus, we have trade pacts with Bavaria and Brandenburg. That's another +10. We have the Cossack land, and we aren't giving it back. We will not declare war on you (until you collapse or look like you're about to smash through Europe) unless you try and defeat us.

The Royal Guns (talk) 20:13, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion from main page about Khanate successors

 * I renamed the Neo-Oirats the Western Oirats because it sounds more like the way the various Khanates and Chinese dynasties were named. Also, I was tired of having all the same names, so I switched the Nogai with the Xacitarxin Khanate, since historically Astrakhan was the state that took over much of the Nogai Territory, and I just used the Turkic spelling for more exoticness. (Somebody)
 * How about the Uzbek Khanate, which was on the first versions of the PMII map (see here)? (77topaz (me))
 * The Uzbeks would replace the Khivans if they arose (LurkerLordB)
 * There could be a "civil war". Another possibility would be for the Caliphate to attempt to establish a Turkmen Khanate (Turkmen being the most Muslim out of the Central Asian races, if I remember correctly?) (77topaz (me))

77topaz (talk) 00:44, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

A question I have, related to this, is: which of the Central Asian races (Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kyrgyz, Tajiks) was/is the most Buddhism-acceptant? 77topaz (talk) 01:11, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Siamese-Malaccan War
can someone please do the algorithm ive been asking for more 4 turns. if i do it i might be biased Nkbeeching

Discussion
Sorry but I'm not that well-versed in PM algorithms to do it :( One thing I suggest that you guys do is have an excel spreadsheet where you have to just plug in numbers and all the math is done for you. I have that for AvARe PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:53, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Just letting you guys know for the next map I have 26.37% of Manchuria. Also, Yank, when you saw these headers, did you get a heart attack? :D PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:51, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

In case anyone's confused, there is no second war. PitaKang- (But here's my number | So call me maybe) 20:51, October 4, 2012 (UTC)