Talk:1983: Doomsday

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A website showing potential nuclear strikes within the US can be found here. A map showing likely fallout patterns across the USA.

=GENERAL DISCUSSION= The following is for general discussion to improve the TL that does not involve article proposals Structured into rough sections for easier navigation.

Countries/Regions/Politics
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Still actual ! :) 1983: Doomsday background story & interview with Col. Stanislaw Petrov (though in German)
SPIEGEL ONLINE (German news magazine) in his story series "One day in history (EinesTages)" this links )Xi&#39;Reney 08:42, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Chumash Republic (rise in population)
I was thinking about raising the population of the to about 200,000 but I would like some form of approval first. Riley.konner 5:04, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Where would these people come from?
 * 2) Why are you asking for a rise in population?
 * 3) What are the current populations of the counties that make up Chumash *here*?

I'd recommend you take the population from here and cut it by 1/2 to 3/4, frankly. There's just not enough food for everyone without mass transit. Louisiannan 00:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are an agricultural community, so they pretty much make there own food, you should elaborate on transit are you talking about trains, palnes, cars etc. I would like to raise the population because there nations even more improbable than this one that have higher populations, and the main reason I am asking if I should is because there would be no explanation, i would just raise the population. Riley.Konner 05:56, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

The OTL population of the areas that make up the Chumash Republic is about 420,000.Oerwinde 01:00, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * So my suggestion seems modest doesn't it? Riley.Konner 06:06, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

OTL pop of 420,000 and received an direct nuclear strike. I'd say the current pop isn't bad. But being the most stable area of the region, it would have high immigration. I would be ok with boosting the pop to around 100k, but 200k would be too much I thinkOerwinde 01:10, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well why I dont make it an 150K would that be acceptable? Riley.Konner 09:39, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I find the original population level to be realistic. California was probably the worst hit out of all the US states. We are talking massive amounts of fallout. Furthermore California has a lot of issues with water. Without a working infrastructure, huge patches of Cali are going to be virtually deserts for the people who live there. Mitro 00:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Much of California's water is piped from Utah, Nevada and Colorado. Without that water, it'd revert to a deserty-type of place. Louisiannan 16:23, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

It's a Red, Red, Red, Red world
Maybe it was the recent Ethiopian deal that did it for me, but I think that the Siberians' expansion across the globe is starting to get out of hand, and turning this nuclear war scenario into a "Communist paradise". It was enough that the USSR emerged from the war intact, while every other combatant was erased from existence. I wasn't overjoyed that we went that route, but the articles were well written, and in general the new USSR includes only the poorest and most desolate parts of the old USSR. And the Siberians' growing collection of allies in the Caribbean made sense, too: that whole region is rapidly getting caught up in a new cold war. But Africa? And (it turns out) Pakistan and Tibet? None of the other powers are meddling in areas so far from home. And what possible reason would these African countries have for linking up with the Siberians? They really are in no position to lend concrete aid (as they were in the 60s and 70s and early 80s). And, lest we forget, the Soviets helped destroy civilization, and everyone know it; they have no reason to blame them any less than the Americans, at the very least. Why are they suddenly the most popular, powerful country on earth? The trend happened gradually enough that I'm only now saying something - I apologize if it's too late and I sound like I'm grousing without justified cause. But the tone of the TL is radically different with the Siberians running about everywhere, creating this new empire of theirs. This world's setup, as I understand it, is supposed to be one with three largish blocs, yes, but no superpowers. Siberia is quickly turning into the only one, and on the whole I think it's a bad direction for the ATL. Benkarnell 02:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ben, I'll have to agree with you - I was okay with the USSR as it exists in this timeline having some minor influence on states immediately bordering it, but this culutral colonialism is indeed above and beyond what I understood for this timeline. I think we need to reassess Siberia and its influence in the wider world. And I apologize, too, that I'm now only noticing the trend. And given that you and Xi'Reney were chosen at one point as the "leaders" of the timeline, I think we honestly need to give your suggestion due consideration.Louisiannan 05:16, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * It is worth considering though that these states aren't part of siberia, they are close allies nothing more. Personaly i belive ideology would have the greatest impact, Ethiopia and the resistance groups in South Sudan and Eritrea were already communist as were several countries around the world yet because so many of them were in deprived areas they wern't nuked thus as the USSR was still a large power it would be logical for them to side with the largest surviving communist government.Besides there is no reason there couldn't be ex USA backed governments that affiliate themselves with the ANZC its just that no one has created them yet, how many post doomsday countries recive backing from the SAC or ANZC, they could be considered afiliated states or allies its just that they arn't classed as such.Vegas adict 10:40, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Ben. The USSR is becoming to powerful.--HAD 11:38, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Although I do agree with you Ben that Siberian expansion is getting a bit out of hand, you do have to agree that most of these places, if not all, were once communist states. None of the mentioned allies haven't had absolutely no communist influence. And FYI Tibet is only a regional partner and no country that is one needs to be communist, it just shows that there is coordination between the CSTO and that particular country on matters of regional importance. Tibet is neutral, as far as any blocs go. I don't know why exactly you're referring to Pakistan, it isn't part of the bloc. Neither is Korea, for the exact same reason as Tibet. Siberians aren't running around anywhere, all the countries created were communist to begin with.
 * Now I'm not saying that the ANZC and the SAC aren't a bit underrepresented, but that is just, as Vegas said, because no one has taken the time to create strong allies for the two. Now for the Caribbean socialist countries, I admit that I had a great part in the rampant socialist movements in the region, but I do also plan to make San Salvador an ANZC ally, as well as make Honduras a SAC member.
 * I think the main problem is that we haven't focused enough on the two remaining powers. Since I joined the project, I haven't seen anyone really stating what was best for these two blocs to actually accomplish in the next ten years.--Vladivostok 13:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand, but I don't think it's an automatic progression from "Communist" to "Siberian satellite" - or even Siberian ally. Since the USSR shares the guilt for WW3, I can imagine Communist parties around the world trying to distance themselves from the Soviet Union - "Were Communists, just not that kind of Communist". Besides this, the CSTO is clearly more than a club for Marxist ideologues and cultural exchange. It's a military alliance, and clearly only the USSR is capable of intervening militarily across such a wide range. Ethiopian troops aren't going to be fighting Contras in Nicaragua anytime soon. Clearly it's an organization for Siberian dependencies. Overall, through the CSTO Siberia has been behaving like a superpower, not a nation still struggling with the wounds of nuclear war. Benkarnell 14:42, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * So your objection is to the CSTO acting as a military alliance rather than a political or cultural one?. PS dependecies is the wrong word as it implys that the countries need Siberia but in actual fact they are all independent and capable of defending themselves.Vegas adict 14:50, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think that at least the Africa countries recently added to the CSTO should be dropped. They have their own military alliance and in terms of distance they are to far away from Siberia to be that close. Mitro 14:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Posibly i'l give consideration to removing them from the CSTO, but geographicly the Carribean is further away from the USSRVegas adict 15:06, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes and No. I am assuming that the Communist states of the Carribean and Central America are being supported by Siberia through ports in the Pacific, where Siberia's ports are. In that sense they are closer since it pretty much is a straight line. Meanwhile with Africa not only do they need to curve around East Asia and pass through the Indian ocean, but pirate activity is no doubt greater in those waters than the Pacific, making any trade with Siberia from there costly. Mitro 15:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologize if the CSTO article gave the wrong impression, it was never my intent to make it a "Club for Siberian dependencies", and I'm sorry you guys feel it is. The only real dependency is Aralia. As I said, Korea and Tibet don't have anything to do with the ideology, they are simply being practical. I feel that both nations are in fact neutral and their own master.
 * The Caribbean, although a strong Siberian ally, is also not in any way dependent on the USSR, they are simply accepting aid from a like-minded country.
 * Now for Africa, well there is room to talk about that. Clearly Africa is closer to the USSR, but it is somewhat impractical to get to, since going by land is not an option and the closest port cities are in the Primorskaya Territory, which isn't fit to do anything at the moment. Now the cultural exchange idea got me thinking. Maybe a new organization with exactly that agenda should arise, perhaps a Fifth international, or a name similar in connotation?--Vladivostok 15:31, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * In a certain sense, the Caribbean members are dependencies in that they "depend" on help from the USSR. Or at least, they have selfish motives for joining and believe that alligning themselves to the USSR will be the best way to maintain their independence in such a volatile region. And the Caribbean is much closer to the USSR's only coastline. It is much more difficult to go all the way around southeast Asia to enter the Indian Ocean and get to Africa, India, etc.
 * My main objection, again, is that the CSTO is quite clearly an organization the USSR started to create a network of client states. And this would be just fine IMO if it were limited to Siberia's immediate neighbors and/or a limited group of Caribbean satellites. If you envision it as a "Fifth Communist International" for all Marxists in the world, it would have to look and feel a lot different. ANd it definitely would be less Russo-centric.
 * And just a note on Tibet - they seem like the last nation on earth that would want to link with the USSR, even as a "regional partner". THey are not Marxist, and in fact, despite fighting a number of wars of necessity since independence, their underlying ideology is still basically pacifistic - quite different from Communism, which by definition is based on militancy. And again, lest we forget - the Soviet Union destroyed the Tibetan capital, and all the history and culture that was kept there! Why would they want to form a partnership with a nation like that? Benkarnell 15:37, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ben on Tibet. Furthermore if Korea is just being practical, than they could do a lot better than Siberia. Even though the US attacked North Korea, the Soviets attacked South Korea, giving united Korea just as much reason to distrust the successor states of those former superpowers. Korea meanwhile could get aid and supplies from ANZC and South America, who would no doubt have more to offer them than Siberia and it would likely be better quality. Mitro 15:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Tibet situation happened out of necessity, I mean, who would want to help Tibet develop, would the ANZC and SAC really have anything to gain from them bein allies? Other than making the USSR angry, of course. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel that the Dalai Lama is the type of person who would leave the past in the past and do what is best for his people now, since they are really in a really unforgiving part of the world, as far as geography and climate is concerned.
 * The Fifth International would be an entirely separate organization, which I will elaborate on, as soon as I create a worthwhile proposal. Now maybe I was a bit hasty when I added the African nations to the CSTO. Perhaps they could be dialogue partners with the Marxist organization in Africa.
 * Who said Korea isn't getting aid from the ANZC or the SAC? They are neutral like Tibet. I feel that both nations would try and be friendly with all three of them, as I got that feeling when I was discussing the issue with the creator of the Korean article.--Vladivostok 16:05, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Having good relations doesn't always equal joining their sponsored organization/military alliance, even if they are not full members. If they are both neutral than they could do so without having to join any organizations. Furthermore how much money does Siberia have to throw away nation-building? They are already trying to rebuild and reclaim most of the Soviet Union and China. Plus they are spending money helping communists in Central America. I don't think its plausible for Siberia to be supporting anyone outside of that. Mitro 16:30, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, you make good points. However, I don't really see any point in chaning the African communist countries, so what do you propose the future of these relations to be? I view regional partnership to be a step up from being just an observer, because in my mind, knowing what an organization like the CSTO, as well as the country of Siberia, will do on your doorstep is a good thing and coordinating help for the Chinese in the region, or perhaps defending against incursions, would lead to at least some form of cooperation, so why not write it down on paper?--Vladivostok 16:36, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Individual agreements between Siberia and Korea/Tibet IMO are plausible and probably likely since even neutral countries being so close to Siberia would have to have some contact with them. That being I don't see its necessary for them to be a part of CSTO for that to happen and I feel that both should have zero affiliation with the organization. Furthermore the African countries should be removed as well as full members but I don't see problem with having the CMC remain as a regional partner with CSTO. I think it goes about what Ben was saying about some communist countries keeping their distance from the USSR. Of course I would like to hear Ben's opinion on this as well. Mitro 16:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

IMO, your ideas are very reasonable. If Ben likes it, as well as Vegas, as that are his countries we would be removing from the organization, I see no reason why these changes wouldn't be made.--Vladivostok 16:53, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'v edited the news page and the CSTO article to make it so that the three CAMC are only regional partners but you would have to talk to the guy who created the Angola article about what he wants done with his county, I'l create the Fifth Communist Interational page later today if thats ok?Vegas adict 16:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Overall, yes, toning it down will probably be good. I think that the issue, for me, is less about specifics than about the overall tone. The new USSR is behaving as though it had as much power and influence as the old one - which it does not, not even close. Tulkeyev jetting around the world picking up allies feels so much like Khrushchev meeting with Nasser, and all the rest - a benevolent patron bestowing his clients with gifts. Since Marxism is such a force in Africa, maybe the 5th International, or some other pan-Marx organization, could be the brainchild of the African nations, not Siberia.
 * I'll echo what Mitro said and point to the question of resources. Siberia recently fought a long-distance war with Aralia, and has to keep enough forces at the ready to act as a real deterrent, should Aralia want to go fully independent again. It's apparently fighting a war in Primorye as we speak; it's got troops in the Mosquito Coast; it's got troops assisting in the relief work in Haiti; it's got a very long and unsafe border to defend; it has to deal with uncooperative Americans in Alaska; and it's creating a new space program. It has to be stretched as thin as watered-down borscht at the moment, and likely as not, countries half a world away can see that it doesn't have much to give in the way of defensive aid. Benkarnell 22:25, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course I see your point. In a strange way, I was going for that whole "stretched to the limit" feel. Just FYI, the Primorye Krai isn't a violent place as most people already either joined up with Siberia or simply left, there were few remaining people. But it is costly to build up and recolonize the place so yeah, that's draining money. Anyway, the Fifth International is being done by Vegas and I think he was going for the organization to be centered around the African states. Vegas does raise a good point. What about the People's Republic of Angola? It has been a member from the start, however looking back, its involvement would be somewhat lacking at best. Perhaps it too should be a partner in Africa?--Vladivostok 05:02, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

So we've reached a conclusion that the CSTO needs to be toned downed a bit and that the USSR is overstreched. Thats ironic, considering whats happening to the OTL USA right now.HAD 06:23, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ironic's not quite the word. That's just what happens. Notice that the USA has refrained from additional military action because of its two wars, and now we're likely to scale back the space program as well. If the USSR is similarly overstretched, it also must start "making tough choices", as politicians like to say. Anyway, thank you for listening and for taking some of my ideas. Benkarnell 15:46, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ben I agree with you, I think the y should be not so powerful and the reunification of USA and Europe, USA balkanization is too false, I think that the provisional USA goverment should invade Utah and Lakotah, later Dinetah and West Texas and the Victoria part of USA, later the small states like Pasco and Spokane, and more invasions finally reunificating The United States of America that would include non-soviet Alaska and some lawless zones in Canada.VENEZUELA 01:07, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * That does not make any sense. Mitro 12:55, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Fifth Communist International
Could someone please tell me which countries/political parties would probabley join the Fifth Communist International?Vegas adict 12:31, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1

US/Canada Template
Gents (do we have any ladies?),

Here's an updated template for the Former US/Canada Template. I think it's a bit cleaner, and if everything is accepted as currently proposed, we could implement it right away. It would also make editing down the road easier:

Thoughts? Comments? Complaints? Death-threats? Do I need to take a wiki-break? User:Louisiannan 18:15, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * We have at least one, Smoggy is a lady. Mitro 18:17, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I like the look of the ANZC template better. I think removing the national flags would make it look a lot cleaner and more organized.--Oerwinde 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is, though, the flags are somewhat a signature of this timeline. That's why I've left them. Louisiannan 17:22, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that the US/Canada template is the only one that includes the flags. --Oerwinde 17:56, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of it but Cape Girardeau is a member of the Dixie Alliance as well. --GOPZACK 19:13, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The flag free template looks a lot less cluttered, and thus less distracting as an addition to the bottom of the page of an article. About the Dixie Alliance - isn't "Cave City" defunct, having been annexed to Kentucky. It would have dissolved even as a city-state when that happened, wouldn't it? --SouthWriter 18:14, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that as the number of "countries" continues to increase, we'll be glad we don't have to add flags to this template. I think SouthWriter's version should be kept.

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

April Article of the Month
I think we can keep this program going. So what do you guys think you should be the next article of the month? Mitro 14:09, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think work should now start on the SAC, that page should show the changes that have happened over the years.--Vladivostok 16:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

So be it. The is this month's article of the month. Mitro 01:04, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to work on the empty articles before the large, developed pages. For instance there are a number of nations in the SAC that do not have proper articles yet.

Yankovic270 17:58, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Yank on this one. HAD 18:07, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

The Plausibility Singularity
I have a theory on the future of the TL. At some point any new nation/survivor state proposal is going to be presumptively obsolete. As more of the map is filled in and as we cancel out the areas that are unlivable, the probability of any new nation proposal being marked as obsolete is going to increase since it will either contradict the already extensive history of the TL or just be implausible. We are already starting to see this with the survivor state proposals for the United Kingdom. I also predict the same thing will begin to happen soon in North America due to that is where the most survivor state proposals are being created. The last place that will be affected by this phenomenon will most likely be Africa, due to the lack of work people have put in on the continent since this TL was created (though thanks to the efforts of Oer and Vegas that has not been the case). South America and Oceania have already crossed this point.

So what happens when it becomes next to impossible to graduate a new nation proposal? Here are some theories I have:


 * We are going to start seeing less nation profiles and more articles on other subjects in the post-Doomsday world.
 * Some editors will find substitutes for nation creation. This could include creating profiles on the subdivisions of the different states (like the individual states of PUSA) and more defunct nations that existed but were absorbed by a present day state (Cape Breton is a good example of this).
 * More articles are going to be put up for review (like how Prussia was) in an effort to free up some space for some plausible nation creation. We already have seen that with the complaints that Superior is unlikely to have gained control of southern Ontario because the likelihood of strong Canadian survivor states arising there.
 * We might even see a drop in new members. I think what is great attraction of this TL is that someone can create their own personal post-apocalyptic nation, and if they can make one that covers their hometown so much the better. Denied that chance we are going to see a lot of new users get discouraged and stop participating.

So that is my theory which I am calling the Plausibility Singularity. So what do you guys think? Am I crazy or am I on to something here? Mitro 16:44, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a very good idea, Mitro. Are you by any chance a maths kind of person? Your style has logic to it. HAD 17:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I am horrible at math, though I like to think I can be logical thanks to my background in law. Mitro 19:00, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well that explains that then.HAD 19:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ha, this "singularity" is a perfect description, in suitably apocalyptic terms, of the life cycle of Ill Bethisad that some of us have seen. When Louisiannan was rather new to that project, it was a time of furious map-making when nobody much knew what the canon was because it changed so quickly. By the time I joined, the map was filled in and activity had slowed down. Most people were concentrating on cultural details. I'll add, though, that even after the map appears to be "filled in", there will be a lot of nations that are still mostly murky, or where the only detailed info is stuff we assumed ("QAA") rather than created. Venezuela is a good example, or Nigeria. The world is big enough that I think we will never reach the point where it's "full", but we will have to start painting with smaller brushes, if that makes sense. Benkarnell 19:11, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ben's right - the focus of many in Ill Bethisad is on refining the details about the countries. I think that there can also be any number of city-states and failed-states in the 1983DD universe. I think that we can and should explore those, and also the smaller, less "notable" aspects of the world, too. Lost journals, and the like. Louisiannan 20:57, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro may have something here. We may need to go over the assumptions upon which we have created this world, but there will be a point in which we will have filled in all the spaces. I am presently looking at the extent of what the accepted targets would have affected the US Southeast - even to the extent of a low level nuke hitting near my folk's homestead (far enough away to wipe out dad's business across the river, but not directly affect them). Fallout can be ruled out as a huge threat where we can assume an airburst, but places like Washington DC and NYC will have to have had a few ground-level blasts to totally devastate them. The trouble with the big targets is that they cannot be too soon after the warning or Reagan and Bush will not escape (resulting in a 'minor' change of the canon! -- workable, but a pain). Well, I hope that is not too far off the 'Plausibility Singularity.' SouthWriter 18:30, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Someone recently posed the question where to go from here, which got me to thinking. As such, I would like to offer a thought. Back in the 1970s there was an alt history novel called "For Want of a Nail" which offered a look at North America in which the American Revolution went a different direction in the tone of a history book. It is a great book to read if you have not already. This said, someone created a website where fans could create short stories which occured in this ATL and gave introspective to events through the eyes of someone who witnessed it, say a battle. How we could do such a thing via wikia I am unsure. But it would give all of us a chance to expand on certain areas of our nations, where we were limited in our respective articles. It is definitely food for thought. --Fxgentleman 17:38, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

There is a consenous forming on the Commonweath of Califormia Talkpage that the Singularity for the North American continent has already been reached. Perhaps a WCRB headline that "Futher North American Nation- States are unlikely to be discovered" is nessacry And i agree with you Fx.HAD 17:38, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should refrain from graduating new North American nations until this is settled. Mitro 21:59, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that other then a few scattered isolated communities all major US survivor nations have been found however I will say this. Lets graduate the last few on the docket right now like North Florida, The Republic of Indiana, The Dakotas and State College to finish off these (so far) non controversial articles then move on to the other aspects like me and Brain have been doing with the articles on the various public figures in the post doomsday world. GOPZACK 22:47, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I recently created a nation based out of Laredo, Texas and Laredo, Mexico named Republica de Dos Laredos (I believe that's the correct spelling in espanol!). I could establish that as a decidedly non-pleasant, violent nation state if that would help balance the "nice" republics. I think what happened here is someone said it was totally unrealistic to have vast areas of post-Doomsday America w/o any human presence and civilization, and everyone jumped in and now we have all these nation states. Now, I do believe that 27 years on what was socially the case in any given area in say, 1984 does not have to be the same in 2010. That could be for the better...or for the worse. BrianD 00:44, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Additions to Editorial Guidelines
I added some guidelines to the. It is nothing new, I just added some content about already established procedures: marking articles as obsolete and reviewing articles already in canon in case they are implausible/contradictory. Please check out and make any corrections you think are important. Mitro 16:35, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like that you cite precedents. How very common-law of you. Benkarnell 23:32, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Welcome Template
I have created a new template: Template:Welcome83. I think we can use it to "welcome" new members to the TL. Please feel free to edit it. I want to make it look nicer but I really do not have the time or wiki code knowledge for that. Mitro 03:21, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1

Revision of History of West Texas
I'm revising history of West Texas to eliminate the isolationist history I gave it when I created the nation and to allow for more survivalist communities in the region. It's kind of a mess right now but won't be (hopefully) when I'm done. I will also be doing a similar revision of eastern Texas in the next few weeks. Your thoughts and suggestions and constructive criticism are definitely welcomed. BrianD 01:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Airships?
This might be a bizarre and perhaps far-fetched idea, but I think airships might have some form of popularity in the post-DD world. Why? Well, from what I've gathered they're capable of carrying decent-sized loads of cargo or passengers, they're more energy-efficient than conventional aircraft, and they can cover more direct routes than ships. Of course, there are downsides; complexity of flying and landing is a significant factor and a problem if they are used for aid transportation to underdeveloped nations with barely-trained ground crews, and the fact they are slower than aircraft (though faster than ships) is another problem. Nonetheless, if they could be built in the early 20th century that means most nations with decent industrial economies should be capable of building airships and blimps; and being less fuel-thirsty and complex than airliners makes them fairly viable for exploration and transportation.

Of course I could just be having a flight of fancy (no pun intended). Am I on to something here, or is this just another bad idea to be ripped apart by the community like Empire of Greater Germania? Fegaxeyl 12:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well there are three main types of Airship, Two of them are easy and quick to make and a third that can carry far more passangers/cargo but takes longer to build and relies on a supply of Helium and Hydrogen. I think the first type (Non rigid airships) would have probabley made the quickest comeback as they are esentialy oversised hot air ballons with some motors mounted on a gondala these would posibly have been used for travel or reconisance in the early days after doomsday but would have fallen out of popularity later as they are un able to carry much weight. The second type (Semi rigid airships) would have also made a comeback quickly after DD as all that is required to build them is a basic metal industry, they have a rigid keel and can either by inflated like a hot air ballon or with Hydrogen/Helium, they would probabley still be used by nations without kerosene or Helium/Hydrogen or those with very little industry. The third type would be the most usefull, these fully rigid airships have a full frame and can carry lots of passangers and cargo but can take nearly two years to build. I think though Fegaxeyl that you are on to a very good idea here, Kerosene (Aviation Fuel) is hard to refine and Airships would provide a good alternative. I do think though that propeller driven aircraft would also have made a large comeback following doomsday as well.Vegas adict 13:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh no...doesn't this TL have enough AH cliches? :-) Mitro 14:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I on the other hand love the idea. Needless to say airships are going to be much more practical than jet aircraft in Virginia.

Yankovic270 14:26, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * We might have to many AH cliches but in a world where the infastructure for jet aircraft doesn't exist (Much) airships do make a logical and sensible choice as passanger and transport vehicles.Vegas adict 14:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of Airships and Piston engined aircraft experiencing a resurgence. Jets are expensive and are the mainstay of 1st world nations like the SAC, USSR and CANZ.HAD 15:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's cliche but it makes sense. Go ahead and write something up, whether a page of its own or a section of the Science-and-Technology page. Just keep them sensible and play up the affordability angle. The idea of ÜBER-airships would not fit this ATL. (Anyone ever play Red Alert II? ;)) Benkarnell 16:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with so-called "Über-airships" being implausible, but roughly 1920's era zeppelins would be well within the technology levels of the timeline. And they would be safe too, because after the post-Hindenburg modifications to its design the sister ship the Graf Zeppelin had a long and illustrious career.

Yankovic270 16:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

So Goddyear Blimp and (mini) Helium Hindenburgs as opposed to Kiriv Airships, right?HAD 16:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I believe helium blimps are more expensive to produce than a hydrogen airship, so a small survivor state stretched to the limit might actually be more interested in a hydrogen model. Hydrogen airships got a bad rep actually after Hindenburg. The fear over them was a little unfounded. Mitro 18:25, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hydrogen is easier to refine than Helium as wellVegas adict 19:24, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually had a dream last night that I was in the world of 1983DD and was piloting an airship. The airship, for whatever reason, had no floor, and I kept dropping stuff and worrying that my passengers would fall. I wasn't worried about myself, for some reason. Benkarnell 23:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to dream a better dream Ben, misquoting Les Miserables asides. But its a pretty cool mental image: Commonwealth Air Force F-18s alongside a zepplin, updated Lockheed Constellations (the best piston liner, in my opinion), sharing the skies with SAS 747s.HAD 17:33, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles.

Kabylie
Is an article about a countrie wich gain independence from Algeria after it was invaded by Greece, then a dictator modernized the small countrie. I don't know how to put a link but the article exist
 * Greece never invaded . Did you actually ever read the article?  Mitro 12:56, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Per the scenario I listed earlier on the New Vegas discussion page, this is a nation consisting of parts of Nevada and adjacent California which I have been working on. I hope to proivde a map soon. However, I don't want to accidently encroach on New Vegas in regards to borders. When I originally envisioned this, I had loosely used Route Six to define the southern border, imagining everything south of there was of little concern to this nation. I welcome comments on this article, which I will add more to as time allows. Thanks..Fxgentleman 05:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you link to the page? Benkarnell 16:25, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I have been thinking about updating this page but I need some help. First off what exactly happened to ? There has been some debate about whether it remained a unified nation or whether it collapsed after Doomsday. A decision on this will help me work out the history of Assyria and also effect this article:. On a side note I changed the article of Jordan a little in response to my edits. The Jordan article stated that Jordan and Assyria share a border which seems unlikely considering the likely location of Assyria in northern Iraq. Mitro 14:49, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Iran has been more or less a unified country in some form for thousands of years. I would keep it that way.Oerwinde 16:42, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I have no issue with the change as if applies to Jordan. At the time, my understanding, based on my reading, was that Iraq was being referenced as the Assyrian Republic. However, I would like to raise a question concerning Iraq. Ever since I first started my work on the Middle East, I have been crafting what I thought would be a sensible scenario for the future. However, I got delayed in putting this out for consideration. Further, it involves several articles I did not create. Since I am getting started again on this region, I wanted to present my scenario for this portion of the Middle East. Iraq and Iran reach a temporary ceasefire following Doomsday in their war, with neither being struck by bombs since it made little sense for this to happen. Iraq emerges from this period of regrouping in earlier 1984 (perhaps enlivened with Soviet military refugees and weapons looking for work), launching a full scale attack against Iran using Scud missiles as they did per OTL, with the difference they heavily bombard Iran and their cities with chemical weapons, since there is no US, USSR, or UN to stop them. An invasion follows with Iraq reaching Tehran and the nation surrendering and Ayatollah Khomeini dying either in the attack or from a heart attack (he died in 1989 OTL). The Kurdish region of Iran breaks off and merges with its parent region from the old Turkey to create Kurdistan. Iraq annexes western Iran along with Kharg Island with the remaining portion of Iran forming a new government. The rest of the Arabian Peninsula does not do anything to stop them, given they don’t care for the Islamic Republic. A few years pass and an emboldened S. Hussein overruns and annexes Kuwait as well and briefly threatens Saudi Arabia, who fights him off with the help of the other nations of the peninsula. He now turns against the survivor nation in eastern Syria (which I am getting ready to add) and invades. This is too much for Israel who orders Hussein to stop his advance. When he refuses, they nuke Bagdad, killing him, as well as dropping a bomb on his advance army. The new Iraq disintegrates and the Saudi’s and their allies take advantage of the chaos and invade, liberating Kuwait. The Kurdish region of Iraq finally breaks free and joins Kurdistan. It is important to note Hussein would never have given this area up while alive and had used repressive measures, including mass killings and chemical weapons, to control them. Under the benevolent influence of the Arabian Union (a coalition of Arabian nations akin to OTL European Union), Iraq regroups under a new name including their captured area of Iran. At this point, smaller sub nations would emerge such as the new Assyrian Republic. I am currently working on several Middle East articles, including one for Saudi Arabia, and would like to use some of this. Understandably, I don’t want to conflict with what someone else is laying out, so please give me your thoughts. --Fxgentleman 16:52, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure if Iran or Iraq would not be attacked. The US Department of Defense suggested in the 1980s that in case of WWIII the Soviet Union would invade the Middle East to deny the US access to the oil. Mitro 17:05, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

My general thought, has been nations firmly in one camp or the other (East vs. West) would make them likely targets of attack in 1983, which is why I argued (and still do) Egypt would have been hit. Iran hated both the US and the USSR. Iraq played both sides, but did tend to lean slightly to the Soviets. This does not put them on the list to likely get nuked. Also, we have to think back as to how this came about. The Soviets are reacting to what they believe is a sneak attack on Doomsday and as such, are going against those elements which immediately threaten it. If this was a thought out plan of conquest, then yeah, I would agree that a strike on Tehran would be a good idea followed by a ground invasion via Russia and Afghanistan. However, the USSR is going to be shattered and will not be thinking ahead towards something like this. This said, your point is good, but I cannot see how it applies in this case. --Fxgentleman 17:18, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * FXG, I think that's a great scenario and would be a wonderful addition to this althist. I don't think Iraq would have a different name, though, any more than Spain or Italy took new names when they underwent regime change. "Iraq" is simply what that country is called. I like the idea of Assyria emerging later, though. Benkarnell 15:43, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by me. Hoping it will detail the American refugees who fled to other parts of the world after Doomsday. Mitro 16:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Rather than taking up additional space by making a new posting here, I am modifying the one I originally posted on March 15 [enclosed below] to incorporate all my work. As part of my work on the Middle East, I posted my article for Saudi Arabia on the 15 and one for the UAE as of today. I will post additional articles this week for Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. Additionally, I posted an article on March 20 concerning the Gulf States Union, a political and economic union between the Arabian nations. My apologies for not being able to post something sooner here on the page regarding it. My apologies for the delay in putting this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy until just recently. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. Fxgentleman 02:52, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

As a follow-up to what I have been discussing for awhile, I have created an article for Saudi Arabia as part of my return to the Middle East. I will be following up with more articles regarding other Arabian nations and for a unified body for the region. Additionally, I will be resuming my work as well for those I am already working on. My apologies for taking a while to put this up, my job takes alot of my time and as such, I have been really busy. Fxgentleman 05:06, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * While Saudi Arabia still needs some work, any objections to graduating the UAE and Gulf States Union?Oerwinde 08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Although I still have to do some tweaking to the GSU and UAE articles, I would be grateful to have them graduated. As my article on S. Arabia is still a work in progress I could not recommend it for graduation just yet. Thanks. --Fxgentleman 19:05, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

State College
GOPZACK's proposal for the OTL home of Penn State University. BrianD 19:47, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for the present day situation in TTL Ohio. --GOPZACK 20:10, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Iran (1983: Doomsday) and some related ideas
Moved to Talk:Iran (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 14:44, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There, I've made an extensive history of early Iranian history post-Doomsday. I'd appreciate any input.--Vladivostok 12:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Two similar articles created by seperate editors. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any objections to graduation for the Helenese article? Saint Helena needs some work, the population is unrealistic, etc.Oerwinde 08:41, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Im rewriting the parts of the that are implausible. --GOPZACK 19:19, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * A minor thing, can we cut down on the pre-Doomsday history? That info really isn't important compared to the alternate history elements of the article. Mitro 15:59, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation. Mitro 17:31, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Baconton. Mitro 14:30, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty empty. The idea's OK in theory, but I think we at least need to clarify the extent of the destruction in Crimea. Two missiles actually seems sort of light for such a strategically important region. Sevastopol was one of the main naval bases in the USSR. Overall I hope this is not the last Russian statelet to appear. We have so many in the US. Benkarnell 22:05, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the part of them colonizing parts of Turkey is pretty weak. There are too many minature empires in this TL already. Furthermore wouldn't the Turks have something to say about Crimean colonies? Mitro 14:40, April 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * We already know that blown-up Greece has taken pieces of Turkey, so it must be in awfully bad shape. It's actually very consistent if blown-up Crimea takes pieces as well. Benkarnell 19:14, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but I think Greece and Crimea's geography plays a role in that. Greece in many ways had a larger area of survivors to pull from. Crimea itself is relatively compact and even just two nukes can cause major damage and chaos to the small peninsula, preventing any future colonization unless it is part of some plan to flee to a better area.
 * I'm curious about how the Crimean Tatars are doing post-Doomsday. Mitro 19:33, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Proposed "Lost colony" in the former South Carolina
Following up on the "discovery of two communities in the western part of the state by the WCRB, I have written an article to account for the lack of contact of those people with the larger community in the upstate. Since I have the explorers of from Piedmont "missing" them in 1991 (partly because they only went as far as the outskirts of Columbia on the Broad River), I postulate that they were largely "relocated," if not wiped out by what we called "Hurricane Hugo" in 1989. I call the "colony" the "Peedee Nation" in honor of the almost extent Pee Dee tribe of Native Americans that lived in the area. One of the "borders" of the nation was the Great Pee Dee River.

I need to fill in the details, but it is assumed that the residents in the area between blasts just settled down and lived along the rivers. Unfortunately, few of them recognized the signs of a hurricane bearing down on them.

Missouri
A proposal about my home state of Missouri. --Jnjaycpa 05:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia
I just made a proposal about the Republic of Georgia, a breakaway Georgia that got independence from the Soviet Union on Doomesday. Fedelede 19:41, April 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would rename it to distinguish it from the former U.S. state of Georgia TTL. Georgia (Europe) (1983: Doomsday)?BrianD 02:16, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or when someone creates an article on the state of Georgia they could title in Georgia (U.S. state) (1983: Doomsday). We can also put a little blurb on the top of both pages telling people that there is also another Georgia in case they are confused. Mitro 14:19, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

OK, I did a blurb as I don't know how to rename a page. Fedelede 21:22, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * You make vague mention of military bases in Georgia being hit. Can you be more specific? I think Batumi would be hit. Mitro 16:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Both Ossetias
This is a proposal about the Republic of Both Ossetias, a republic that comprises all of Ossetia and got independence from Georgia in 1998. Fedelede 20:07, April 4, 2010 (UTC) Wouldn't they simply call themselves the Republic of Ossetia? Is there really a need to stress that it includes both South and Nort Ossetia?--Vladivostok 16:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few things need to be taken into account. First off although I can’t pinpoint its location I believe that there was a nuclear bomber airbase somewhere in North Ossetia. Secondly I think it’s quite likely that more of the caucuses was hit as there were a few big cities and bases in the region.--ShutUpNavi 17:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

,, &
Me & Southwriter's proposals for the Dakotas. --GOPZACK 19:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Muslim Liberation Army
A proposal for a terrorist organization tied to Iran with a base of operations in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.--Vladivostok 10:37, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The article has been expanded by a new user. Check it out. Mitro 22:43, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not a bad article, I like it. However I don’t see why Indonesia was nuked on DD. As far as I can tell it wasn’t aligned with either side nor had any strategic value. So far I can’t see any reasoning behind the attack.--ShutUpNavi 23:18, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, this is my explanation of why Indonesia was nuked. During the first president (Sukarno)'s reign, Indonesia was an ally of Russia and China. It's relation with the West deteriorated. Indonesia - Russia relations were in the peak." Indonesia received a substantial amount of aid from Russia and East Europe.But then the abortive coup by the Communist Party of Indonesia in 1965 triggered an anti communist sentiment among Indonesian people. The relations of both countries of both countries reached the lowest level but it never cut off. Indonesia was also close with China before 1965 but after 1965,at that time there was violence toward Sukarno-loyalists and Chinese (both Chinese-Indonesian and Chinese expatriates) "Indonesia's friendly diplomatic relations with mainland China were severed, and the Chinese Embassy in Jakarta burnt down by a mob. New legislation included the banning of Chinese language signs on shops and other buildings, and the closure of Chinese language schools, adoption of "Indonesian" sounding names." from wikipedia,transition to new order Tji 13:57, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

A news proposal much like the Riley.Konner 11:26, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Azokoatron. Mitro 22:35, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Arstarpool. Mitro 22:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Any objections to graduation? --GOPZACK 20:01, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I really think this guy Perryz is taking this althist as a joke. He has stated multiple times the only reason he made it is because he wants to
 * create "one big republic" in Florida. I for one do not see why this nation would name itself "North Florida" if it had no knowledge of the republic in South Florida. And besides, he has already abandoned the article. I for one do not see it fit to graduate. Arstarpool 03:40, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perryz101. Mitro 22:41, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Isn't this nation part of the East Caribbean Federation? BrianD 13:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'll try to change the page so that it's more clearly a part of the federation. Benkarnell 19:12, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation and marking this as a stub? Mitro 17:33, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Georgia (U.S. State)
I put a little bit up for the summary article on my home state of Georgia. I clicked on what looked like a live link at the new article on the former Soviet country of Georgia and got a blank slate! So there you go.

I have some ideas for south Georgia, and I have to build up some of the story for Toccoa. And of course, there is the failed provisional government in Athens to which to link the article. SouthWriter 03:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Azerbaijan (1983:Doomsday)
An article by me --Fedelede 02:08, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Article originally created due to how long the discussion on how the history of 1983: Doomsday will progress. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've started working on this article. Thoughts are appreciated. Mitro 16:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Brian is trying to revise the history of West Texas. Mitro 14:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thoughts appreciated - this is still very much in progress. Some of the history touches more on the south Texas and north Texas states, and would eventually be moved if this is approved.--BrianD 23:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for an economic and poltical union in Britain to allow for the British independent states solidarity in the face of the Celtic Alliance and the influence of New Britain.

The idea is good but the name could perhaps do with some work. The Celtic Alliance could claim to be more like "Britons" than the English are. How about something along the lines of the Organisation of English States (OES) or Organisation of English Nations (OEN)?? Verence71 19:27, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

The thing is that would go against the spirit of the organisation. The idea is to bring a voice to the small survivor states. That would mean ones in Scotland (improbable) and Wales as well. The founding nations may well be all based in England and therefore English but their national identities are new and vibrant and any expansion westwards to Wales would mean they would have to be British or Britons anyway just to include the Welsh identity let alone their individual states. How a bout the Organisation of British Nations. Its not as if the Celtic Alliance can claim to be British. Bob 16:13, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

OBN sounds ok. Would the workings of the organisation be similar to any similar real-life organisation?? Verence71 18:46, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking similar to the European Union. But a bit less tight. More as a kind of forum to solve problems like food supply and dangerous groups of raiders. Bob 17:34, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

So the head of goverment of each nation could take it in turn to be the chairman of the OBN much like member states of the EU take it in turn to hold the EU presidency?? Verence71 19:27, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

How would these nations be able to keep up with one another? Road, rail, ship, or perhaps even aircraft to create a method of communication and transport? Radio is all well and good, but if we're looking at an economic union then the nations need to be able to integrate their markets and industries, something only possible through solid trade routes. This isn't much of a problem for the immediate future, though, as all of the current survivor nations are located on the coast and can use ships (which I believe Cleveland or Northumbria is planning, by laying out a trade route along the coast). The alternatives are airports, which would also allow the OBN (a name I dislike) to welcome foreign travelers quicker, or a rail link between the nations to create a conduit for fairly fast movement and create some form of ideological link through cooperation. As for politics I'm not overly concerned as to structure, provided all nations get either a fair share of recognition or proportional representation. Fegaxeyl 15:47, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

In order for there to be closer contact between the nations it might be an idea to have embassies in each other's nation. I was thinking that perhaps this organisation, whatever it ends being called might work along similar lines to the Hanseatic League Verence71 18:30, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

A small country on Namibia's coastline, including the cities of Walvis Bay and Swakopmund. I'm not sure how plausible it is: GSWA and the Map give conflicting descriptions of this area (what countries exist in the area, how big they are, etc.). If GSWA is correct, then this idea should be scrapped; but if the Map is correct, and there are no other issues, then I'll continue with it. - Mister Sheen 14:04, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think GSWA is cannon.HAD 14:10, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's canon in that we know it exists and should try to preserve most of what's written, but consensus was that a German-only state probably won't encompass all of Namibia. Benkarnell 14:37, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * So it is possible for a Walvis Bay-Swakopmund city-state to exist? - Mister Sheen 14:39, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I had another idea for German Southwest Africa, but I'm guessing no one was watching the talk page since no one commented. Talk:German_South_West_Africa_(1983:_Doomsday)Oerwinde 23:46, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? Mitro 17:34, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article I created about Myanmar/Burma. Yankovic270 17:54, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation?

Yankovic270 15:06, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 15:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Perry. Mitro 15:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Mitro, but Perry doesn't seem to know how this time line works. Even if he begins to put together an idea that goes along with canon, his grammar is not up to par. I suggested to him that he read it aloud after he wrote it, but I don't think it has helped. SouthWriter 05:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with SouthWriter, I'm not very good with grammar, but I think when all the grammar issues can be worked out, it will come out good. I understand the timeline.Perryz101 23:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Smoggy. Mitro 15:57, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections to graduation? Mitro 17:35, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

San Diego
Article created by WestVirginiaRebel, where he argues for survivors in the former southern California city. BrianD 01:35, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Does anyone think this article has merit? Should we graduate it, rework it or mark it obsolete? BrianD 15:26, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

The article it's self I have no trouble with but the whole idea of worshiping Lincoln as a deity I have trouble with. I don't see it catching on with 20% of the population. A fringe cult perhaps but not a major religion. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Lincoln the President but I just don't see a religion being formed around him. --GOPZACK 03:08, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

It's just because I realized that from what I got from church that God is a wise and incredibly loving enitity who knows how to be firm. That describes Abraham Lincoln to a T. Lincolnism is basically Christianity with a different face on God. If you ever read the bible you would know that the true face of God is never revealed. I stand by the new faith, as it is the quirk I gave it to make the country unique. And if a country could have a religion worshipping King Arthur, who may or may not have existed, then ol' Abe definitely deserves followers.

Yankovic270 03:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * This smacks of Russian Buddhists that another alt-history group toyed with once-upon-a-time, but they're just so out there - beyond the pale, really, that I don't know if Lincolnists or Arthurians could survive any better than Russian Buddhists did in the other alternate history. As much as you'd like to keep it because of a quirk, I don't know that people would give up their old religion for this new religion just because of Doomsday. I'm not averse to it, given a much stronger explanation - maybe that major religious leaders had visions, what-not - similar to the Jehovah's Witness or something. That would much better explain why it would take off so.


 * I'm more concerned, Yankovic, that you seem so ready to defy group consensus, something that is integral to the proper function of this and other shared timelines. I would hope you would reconsider. Louisiannan 05:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll chime in as the loyal opposition here: I think that strange things can happen to small groups living in isolation. I'm actually surprised there aren't more weird religious cults out there. I agree that a more sophisticated explanation for the origins this one is probably needed. Benkarnell 13:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Danke Schon Ben. I just need a prominent local religious leader to have a vision. I also need some one to write the vision. I'm not one who can write religous material.

Yankovic270 15:17, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for cults popping up after doomsday but not on such a large scale like in Lincoln. & by making Lincoln "god" wouldn't that piss a lot of Christians off who believe God sent down his son Jesus for a time but God himself other wise was never like you said "revealed". That could spark religious tension & such plus I doubt your leader Dave Heineman, a methodist, would drop that faith and become a "Lincolnist". --GOPZACK 19:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem per se with somebody there worshipping Abraham Lincoln as a deity. It's 20 percent of the population that I have a problem with. Personally, Lincolnism as a philosophy, that could be held by anyone of any religion or no religion is more realistic. In fact I could see this as some sort of humanist movement, their argument being no one knows if God exists or not, but everyone knows Lincoln did, and we know what he stood for; and that his principles are ones that everyone can follow and adopt, regardless of humanist or Lutheran or Catholic beliefs. This could still allow for the monuments to Abe Lincoln that Yank's established as being around the city of Lincoln. I would also take issue with Lincoln's hostilities towards PUSA Nebraska - how strange for peaceful people to be so bitter at Scottsbluff for taking their "territory".--BrianD 23:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

I can live with the hostilies being removed, but I remain firm on the Lincolnists. I will not remove Lincolnism from my article. I want them to be an actual religion, not a philosophy. What's the largest percentage of people who could be Lincolnist? And I will not accept 5% or lower.

Yankovic270 02:07, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yankovic, you're always doing that! "I will not accept less than..."... this isn't an auction! Brian, I still think that having one's civilization destroyed might lead people to unexpected devotional and cultic practices. This month's National Geographic has an article on the growth of the cult of Santa Muerte in Mexico. Now, most images of people worshipping Santa Muerte simply look... creepy to most people, but it is a real phenomenon that has been expanding rapidly in Mexico as social and economic conditions have taken a turn for the worse. Think of how much more psychologically and spiritually damaging the nuclear war must have been - on everyone in the world, but on Americans especially. That really is a dimension of this ATL that I think we haven't explored enough. Worshipping Abe Lincoln? Hardly implausible, especially for a people craving some piece of the USA to hold on to. If you ask me, Lincolnism ought to be the tip of the iceberg. Benkarnell 03:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ben. I still don't quite get it, but you've helped me understand this a bit more. Maybe the nuclear war made Lincolnists forsake their former faith in God, and Lincolnism filled in the gap? (I wonder what effect this is having on the Protestant and Catholic churches there?). And, I also wonder if there is a (small) humanist/atheist contingent that adopted the Lincolnist principles w/o embracing him as a deity. BrianD 03:09, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the Catholic Church in Mexico has repeatedly condemned Santa Muerte, and according to the article, they've persuaded the Mexican government to revoke her status as a recognized religion. Probably Lincoln has similar tensions.
 * Just as a general thing: I really do think that we have sometimes ignored the psychological side of things. When I look at North America, I'd expect most people over 25 to show some symptoms of depression and PTSD, for example. And this would have serious effects felt throughout society. It might help explain why Americans have been so unwilling to "pick up the pieces", and why Uyghurs and Manchurian Chinese were so nonchalant about the rump Soviet government taking over. Benkarnell 03:29, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * There probably are tensions, but in reading the article it seems as if the government accepts the new religion. The depression/PTSD discussion is worth a thread of its own. BrianD 03:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

The last part of my work in the Horn of AfricaVegas adict 16:43, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Referendum
While browsing through some random articles, I found myself landing into the Thunder Bay article. While reading through it, I happened to see that it was written that a referendum was supposed to be held on April 10 to decide whether to be incorporated into Canada, Superior, or stay itself. What was the final verdict? This is a classic example of an article falling into neglect. Arstarpool 01:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well these things do happen. We will just need to decide among ourselves what would happen and then write it in. I wonder though with war going on between Superior and Canada that the referendum might have been cancelled. Mitro 00:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone updated the Thunder Bay article rather recently (I messaged Labhas about it but never heard back). It would be good to get hold of Lahbas to see if he approves of the updates before deciding on the referendum. BrianD 01:37, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Norway
Since I am working on updating the Nordic Union page, I thought that I could also work on a more detailed article for Norway and, later on, the other members of the union. Realismadder 01:05, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

The Nordic Union article has Greenland and the Faroe Islands as part of Norway whereas pre-Doomsday they were part of Denmark. Was this a mistake or will it be explained at a later date?? Verence71 19:14, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * A small mistake, which has been sorted out now. They are of course a part of the Kingdom of Denmark through Rigsfællesskabet. - Realismadder 21:32, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, then the Monarchs page should change, too. Now I had been under the impression that the former dependencies (Faroes, Greenland, Aaland) are now fully independent countries and represent themselves, for example, in the League of Nations. The LoN page reflects that belief. Is it mistaken? Benkarnell 21:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to graduation? Mitro 17:35, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Jerry Falwell
My proposal for the post-Doomsday history of one Jerry Falwell, in TTL as an pre-Doomsday evangelist and political activist and post-Doomsday political leader and, in his later years, a pastor and college president. BrianD 15:25, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

WCRB Report on Transportation
A WCRB report on the situation of Transport infastructure across the world including details on AirshipsVegas adict 17:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for a blues musician named "Taj Mahal" who was in Hawaii on Doomsday & survived. --GOPZACK 20:11, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

My proposal for a survivor nation stretching from the Californian mountains to the coastline. Any one who has any knowledge of this region please leave me a message on my talk page. Arstarpool 23:59, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Doesn't this article conflict with Sierra Nevada?BrianD 01:55, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems like there is a lot of argument on this article's talk page that this country is implausible. Am I wrong to move to mark this as obsolete? Mitro 17:36, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope --GOPZACK 23:06, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Keith Urban
Inspired by GOPZACK's excellent Taj Mahal article; a proposal for someone I've already mentioned somewhere on the wiki as being a major pop star in the ANZC and, IMO, probably would be a huge mega star in the 1983:DD world. BrianD 00:14, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

Billy Graham
A BIG thanks and shoutout to Jnjaycpa for the idea for this proposal. Through Google Jnjaycpa found that Billy Graham was at his home near Asheville when Doomsday hit. As an important religious and cultural leader in America pre-Doomsday, Graham is too important to simply ignore. This page is the start of a proposal designed to flesh out what happened to the man after DD. I started the page, but Jnjaycpa deserves credit for the idea. BrianD 01:55, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

EMP affected areas
When we are writing our articles, we assume a single EMP generated 300 miles above the center of the contiguous US, as well as a similar EMP over the center of the USSR (aka Russia). To the left is the professionally produced map (I extended the circle to completion) and one I did from the Google Earth shot of Eurasia is on the right. Collateral damage in North America includes Havana, Cuba (a friend of Russia) and Finland (a friend of the USA). As you can see, most of Mexico, as well as the big cities of Canada would also be affected. We can see by this that the EMP would have been devestating to Mexico, except that it may have more "antique" electric systems that might survive. And, depending on the accuracy of this map, Aroostook may very well have been the only place in the lower 48 that actually would have working solid state electronics! SouthWriter 18:07, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey South, I was just wondering if you could tell me why the airburst centered so deep into Siberia? I mean, I know that map isn't "official" but I think it would make more sense to airburst over all of the European USSR and even take out a couple of satellite states while they were at it. Or has it already been established where the centre of the EMP was?--Vladivostok 18:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

No, Vlad, it is not the established center for an assumed US EMP over the USSR. I chose a spot that was over the bulk of Russia itself, as it appears on the map today. As I understand it, this "Russian Federation" was the bulk of the USSR anyway. It might work well to center it over the European part of that would leave even more collateral damage on friends in Europe. I am assuming that neither superpower wanted to exspend more that one high orbit missile to deploy a nuke as an EMP generator. With one shot, they would go for as much of the enemy as they could. Disabled electronics would then reduce the effectiveness of both the missiles and the warning systems of both sides.

With that thought, I suppose, we could assume a certain number of the intended targets would have been missed due to tracking problems. A lesser number, I suspect might even fail to explode (not as likely, but if the EMP missile was first up, it could arrive in place before all the missiles reached their targets, effecting those "under" them). Just some thoughts. SouthWriter 21:37, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

If we established the largest ring as canon, it would cause havoc with the Mexico article and cause some revision of the timeline (because how could Reagan contact Mexico if Mexico's electronics didn't work?) It would also establish the Remainder Provnices of Canada; Cuba; Puerto Rico; most of the Caribbean; and upper British Columbia, Yukon, and Alaska, as potentially powerful nations after Doomsday - because EMP would not have affected them at all! I like the middle ring, as it encompasses most of the US and northern Mexico (as the original writer of Mexico apparently envisioned when he wrote that country's history). You could take a second "middle ring" burst over the northeast USA, and a third perhaps over the Oregon coast, to cover the entire US and Canada w/o affecting the Mexico articles and presumably placing all of Canada under some sort of EMP burst.

The Franklin in Mexico
I was editing the voyage of the USS Benjamin Franklin to bring it into line with what we now know about Panama: the Franklin saw that the canal was impassable and instead sailed around Cape Horn, re-establishing contact with the South American coastal states. I was going to have it sail from Brazil to Cape Verde: it's canonical that Brazil and Cape Verde (a federated member of the "new Portugal") were in contact from 1990, so the Brazilians would likely have steered the Franklin in that direction, from which they could go to Europe and complete the voyage as written. However, our recent discoveries relating to Mexico complicate things considerably. The American presence had grown a lot by then, and at the time of the Franklins visit (mid-1991), several cities were engulfed in pro- or anti-American rioting. The Torreon Accords would be signed that September, and GW Bush would be a signatory. Question: the Franklin would surely have informed the Americo-Mexicans about the provisional US government in Canberra. Bush would have learned of his father's survival. What does that do to the dynamics both in Mexico and in Australia and New Zealand? The Franklin definitely would stop: its crew had not encountered any civilization in the western US and would have been eager to know what was happening in the next country they passed. This effects the histories of several nations and key individuals, so I put it in this section of the talk page. Benkarnell 22:42, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * As the overseer of Mexico and the various Texases, the question of their relationship to the APA has been something I've been trying to resolve, because I just can't see the APA letting the Americans in Mexico, and survivor states along the border, go knowing there are survivors in those regions (remember, we already have the APA intervening in MSP, Alaska and Hawaii affairs). Onto the Franklin: it would stop, and it would have to be aware of the survivors before stopping. In regards to Mexico, it is put in a unique position as a relatively stable state in the post-Doomsday world, uber powerful on at least a regional scale, and in the middle between the APA/Australian/New Zealand and South American blocs. That political arrangement might last to this day. BrianD 22:54, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

PS: One possible "way out" would be that the Franklin was intercepted by Mexican ships as soon as it was sighted and identified. The Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs rushed out to the flotilla and begged the ship to sail on, because its arrival, if made public, would cause political turmoil. And to show you we are serious, look at these guns. The Franklin's crew would certainly see this as unreasonable but might decide to avoid trouble and sail on to El Salvador or Costa Rica, where there arrival would cause rumors back in Mexico, but not actual contact between the two American communities. Sort of a cheap retcon, but it could work, and fit with the dystopic tone of those years of the ATL. Benkarnell 22:49, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * But then you have to explain what was going on with Mexico (the details which still are being worked on). In the previous version of Mexico, the original editor, Guinnesscap, had "thousands of Americans leave for Australia and the Municipal States of the Pacific" after the APA dissolved. If we accept that, then that means Australia and Mexico would have had to know of each other's situations beforehand. I maintain that would be the case in 1995, and that relations between Mexico and the ANZC/APA would either be good or really bad.--BrianD 22:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe this meeting helped show the APA the enormity of their predicament: the US mainland was shot, and the US community in Mexico was much larger than it could hope to provide for. Maybe this rushed it on its way toward dissolution. (Four years isn't so long in Bureaucratic Time.) As for relations between Mexico and the APA, I would vote bad, if only beacuse everything seemingly was bad in the 1990s; I don't see the two governments working happily together. The APA could be an advocate for Americans living in Mexico, but relations with the Mexican government would remain tense. Benkarnell 23:05, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the APA's predicament. There are so many reasons for a bad APA/Mexico relationship; those would need to be hammered out. The distance between the two nations would not help, either. BrianD 23:47, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Unedited Map
I'm verry sorry this is a bit off topic but I would like to know where you found the map you used for your world map and if you could show me where to find it for my own purposes. I've been searching the internet for a few days and have yet to find one so large or detailed than this one. 209.208.106.248 21:01, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It came from Wikipedia. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BlankMap-World-large.png .  This section is in the wrong part of this page, but I'll leave it here for a day so you have a chance to see the response.