Talk:Principia Moderni (Map Game)

Labeled Map


The map will only be up-to-date for five years at a time, and I'm not planning on doing it more than every few decades. This is just a guideline to help people understand the situation of the countries. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 04:16, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't somebody updating that map above? RandomWriterGuy 06:51, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

I tried to do it, but is impossible to add those letters.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:34, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

War Algorithm
An updated algorithm can be found on the rules page

Location goes by capital city.
 * at the location of the war: 5
 * next to the location of the war: 4
 * close to the location of the war: 3
 * far from location of the war: 2
 * other side of the world: 1
 * Antarctica: 0

Tactical Advantage

 * attacker's advantage: 1
 * high ground: 2
 * Note: A country receives high ground if:

1) Its capital has a high topographical prominence, meaning it is surrounded by areas of significantly lower elevation. Even plateaus count, but it must be so that the enemy has to climb the mountain to capture the capital.

2) For countries being invaded from the coast, they get high ground if their capital is 300 m or higher.

3) A country invading via sea does not get high ground.

4) A country gets high ground if their capital is more than 300 m higher than the capitals of the neighboring countries.

5) A country invaded from a bordering country, and its capital is 500 m higher or more.

Strength

 * each country on a side of the war: L for leader (+4), M for military aid (+3), S for supplies (+2), V for vassalization or subordination (-1) and then W for withdrawal (-1). So a list of belligerents read like China (L), Zhuang Warlords (MVW), Japan (M), Korea (MW), Hawaiian rebels (MV), Mali (SW), creating a score of 13
 * country has developed military: 1 for each turn dedicated to military or military technology in the last 15 years
 * expansion: -1 for every turn used for expansion in the past 10 years

Motive

 * motive is life or death (country's sovereign existence is threatened): 10
 * motive is religious: 7
 * motive is social or moral: 6
 * motive is political: 5
 * motive is economic: 3

If there are multiple motives, the one told to the army will be selected.

Chance
0 to 9 points will be awarded to each person based on chance. Factors will be the opponent's edit count (on Althist's main articles) and the precise time when the country declares war or acknowledges the other's declaration of war. The product of the non-zero digits of the time by UTC (0:00 yields 1) will be written as a percentage of the opponent's edit count at the exact time of the declaration. If the resulting number is less than one hundred percent, the reciprocal is taken. The result is multiplied by pi and the hundredths digit is the amount of points that person gets (e.g. 123.8377% yields 3). The algorithm is online for fairness, but I will be the moderator.

Other

 * Countries in civil disarray are able to resist invasion by a factor of 1.5. However, they may not take territory in another country.
 * If X countries attack another country, they have to take 100X/(X+2)% of their opponents' territory to facilitate a full government transplant.
 * Expansion into countries not fully united is multiplied by 1.5, but it does not affect how well the country fares in war if it wins the war.
 * Stability bonus points as calculated by the stability moderator.

Discussion
Vassals no longer have an effect on war? Kunarian 20:46, September 23, 2011 (UTC)

They do. They may be used as combatants, but expansion in countries with vassals is multiplied by 1.5. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:20, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

Stage 1

 * AGC
 * Hungary & Greece + colonies
 * France + colonies
 * Persia + colonies
 * Hanthawaddy + colonies
 * Rest of Sweden + colonies
 * Naples
 * Joseon
 * Itsaygahi
 * Turan
 * Finnish home territories + colonies

Stage 2

 * All of Russian territory + colonies
 * Swedish Scandinavian territories
 * China + colonies

Stage 3

 * None.

Stage 4

 * None

Discussion

 * Don't nations have to mention something about the expansion of industry to be able to get it? Because Persia never posted anything to do with them building up any industry or anything, so I think Kenny said they get -10 years if they never post anything/are NPC. LurkerLordB 23:27, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * No its player nations/areas that can industrializeScandinator
 * So they can industrialize up the point on the map, but if they don't post that they do so then they don't get the benefits until later? LurkerLordB 03:32, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly!Scandinator
 * Naples is the same color as France on the map, so ought't they to industrialize the same time? LurkerLordB 22:09, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aren't you confusing Sweden with Naples?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:44, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, see the most recent map:Industrializations2.png France is the color of Naples, but it is now put on the same level as Anglo-Germany. LurkerLordB 22:04, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that you was talking about the conventional map, not the industrialization map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 16:52, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * That is because of their occupation of Sweden. Scandinator

Stability for non-player nations
Just to clarify: from this point on, the population and time ruled factors in the algorithm will be replaced with bonus points for player nations. For non-player nations, it will go as follows:

2.5*Number of digits of population*Time

Time is:


 * 1) Number of years ruled / 10.
 * 2) Plug into: x^1.25/1.25^x.

So take the current United States: 9 digits in population. Ruled for 235 years. Thus:23.5^1.25/1.25^23.5*2.5*9 = 6 points

Any problems with this system?

Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 23:25, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I tweaked it slightly just a second ago, and it is correct as above. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:16, October 31, 2011 (UTC)



Graphical representation. Red is 6 digit in population, green is 7 digits, blue is 8 digits, and yellow is 9 digits. The horizontal axis is years and the vertical is bonus points. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:36, October 31, 2011 (UTC) {C}{C When you archive the page again,please don't remove this section. i need to remind how the stability curve is done.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 20:15, November 25, 2011 (UTC)

Stability for Player States
Okay, time for the new system. This should be a lot more simple and a lot fairer.

System on Stability
The new system will distinguish government stability score (GSS) from common stability score (CSS). The sum is overall stability score (OSS).

Government stability score is basically the stability curve. The formula is 10*d^1.25/1.2^d where d is the number of decades the government has been in power, rounded to the nearest year. It is rounded to the nearest 0.1.

Common stability score starts at zero, and measures the stability of the common people. This number starts at zero. Economic improvements, propaganda, and religious revivals are +0.5 per year. Expansion and war are -1 per year. Make the most out of your expansion, and choose wisely guys.

When OSS reaches 0, you get a mod rebellion, so you can always change governments before then to keep this from happening.

System on War Algorithms
The new equation for gains from war algorithms is (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x is the number of the years the war goes on and p is the amount of territory determined by the algorithm ((y/z+y)*2)-1 where y is the winner's score and z is the losers). So if your war lasts one year, you only get 50% of the territory, but if you let the war last five years, you get 90% of the territory. But you still lose -1 CSS for each turn you take during the war. However, it should be noted that the person who chooses how long the war is going to last is the winner. The winner may not hold the war if their OSS goes to zero. A country fighting on multiple fronts will lose twice as many OSS each turn.

If your OSS reaches zero during a war, you will have a rebellion during the war but it will not affect your overall score.

System on Rebellions
For mod rebellions or rebellions for new players who want to join, a specific area will be selected. For new players, it has to be a specific ethnic, regional, or national area, but for mod rebellions it will depend on the situation (i.e. for homogenous countries). The algorithm will continue normally, except the territory "owned" by the rebellion will equal half the disputed territory. If the war is a tie, the rebellious country may choose territory from 1/2 of the disputed area.

Why this works:
 * The stability scores are much lower and much less variable.
 * It actually takes into account usage of resources.
 * It prevents people from accumulating huge stability scores and wielding them against blank player nations who only have the stability curve.
 * It discourages too many changes of government because countries are most vulnerable as soon as they change government.
 * Rebellions have a good chance but they won't necessarily take over the entire country or completely be annihilated.
 * It's possible to keep your stability score artificially just above zero, but if you get invaded, you're screwed.

Discussion
Please discuss here. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 05:28, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

... after all my effort... ah well i understand. Especially since Hungary was going to get 114 points if I updated now Scandinator 06:22, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I like this system much better. The old one would have worked good in theory, but there were too many things which opinion could effect or were complicated. It would work well in a videogame or something though. LurkerLordB 21:59, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

My only question is how drastic does it have to be to be considered a change in government? LurkerLordB 22:14, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think mod rebellions should be like a civil war. CrimsonAssassin 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Ah, well, I can't think of a better way to give rebellions a chance without taking too much territory out of the nation. Got a better idea?

And a change in government would mean that the previous government wouldn't have wanted the change to happen. This is different from say, a new king that is much more well liked than his predecessor. Instead, the way you make your king more well-liked is with propaganda, which adds

One problem I am running into. Take the scenario: someone works on their economy one hundred years straight, and their stability is at 50 by the end of that period. Then, they go on a rampage, and because their stability is so high, they conquer about 20 countries with about 2 years each, and still have about 10 stability left, which makes it hard for them to be invaded. The only solution I can think of is another curve (yay). So when your Common Stability Score gets above 5 or below -5, additional quantities are square rooted. So instead of 8 stability points, it would be 5+√(3), and the person in the example would have 5+√(45) stability, which is about 11.7 instead of 50. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 02:12, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

If someone was working on their economy for a hundred years straight, they deserve a successful rampage if you ask me. CrimsonAssassin 02:30, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Crimson, both to make it fair to nations that works on their economy for a hundred years straight, and because I am tired of math. LurkerLordB 02:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I have found a problem: the new results algorithm says that the winner determines how long the war occurs. However, what happens if an NPC nation beats a player in a war? It's happened in-game, so it stands to reason it could occur again. However, the NPC (obviously) cannot post to say how long they are keeping it. So do we generate a number for how long it will take? Or generate a number in what percentage of their potential gained territory they could take? Or if that is too much RNG, we could make a second chance formula perhaps for how long it would take. LurkerLordB 22:06, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

World Religions in Principia Moderni
I'm planning on making a map of World Religions for the year 1750. I know some differances (like Schmittism) but what are the other major differances I should know about? Are the largest religions in China Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism? Has much of the middle east converted to Christianity (since Persia is christian, and Europeans are controlling parts of it)? Has chritianity splintered in different ways?

Wow. That was a lot of questions....Flagmania 21:45, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm making a map of religions in France. I'm gonna put it on the page soon. --Galaguerra1 22:02, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Confucianism is prevalent in Canton and West China. Buddhism is prevalent in central China. Small parts of Eastern China have large Taoist populations. Christianity is somewhat prevalent, especially East Asian Christianity. Good question. CrimsonAssassin 22:32, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

I imagine that it will be hard to graph China, as there people could be Taoist, Buddhist, and Confucian, or any combination, at the same time! I guess you could choose what would be their top preference.

Schmittism will be the largest in Doitmania (the small little part of Denmark that sticks out to the side) the Netherlands and Prussia, due to all being former Japanese colonies, and they will have many in some French Colonies (I don't know which) and perhaps a group in South France?. And Istoias.

Meanwhile, by then Hussite Christianity will dominate the rest of Eastern Germany, Austria, Poland, and the northern parts of Hungary. Waldensian Christianity will be in the non-Neapolitan controlled parts of Italy and perhaps Burgundy. Eastern Orthodox Christianity will be in Russia & Colonies and Greece and Sweden, Roman Catholicism in Spain & colony, Portugal, Naples & Colonies, France & some colonies Scotland, the rest of Hungary, the Rest of Anglo-Germany, Belgium (or whatever its called) and maybe Ukraine? (because Lx mentioned there being some Eastern RIte of Catholicism there). Ethiopian orthodox would be in Ethiopia competing with Schmitttism. East Asian Christianity-Vietnam and Colonies. I believe Joseon would be part Christian.

Judaism-only in Israel.

Shinto-only in Japan, competing with Buddhism and Schmittism

Buddhism-Need to ask China how to depict China & Colonies, Mahayana competing with Christianity in Korea, Theravada in Hanthawaddy and Sri-Lanka and the free nation east of Hanthawaddy and possibly the parts of Vietnam taken from Hantawaddy in the war (ask Yank), TIbetan in Tibet.

Sunni Islam would be primarily in the north Africa (competing with Catholicism in Tunisia and Eastern Orthodoxy in Egypt and Tripolia) and Turkey, Kurdistan, French Songhai, most west African nations, and Arabia (ask France for French Crusader states). Sunni and Shia would compete in Shahzur and Assyria and Yemen. Shia would still probably lead in Persia, the merging faith just began. Shia also leads in Itsaygahi.

Hinduism in the Free parts of India, Chinese India, competing with Christianity in the colonies, ask Hanthawaddy for the statistics in Hanthawaddian India.

Tribal religions in the black areas (except for the black areas in north Africa, those would be Sunni Islam). Tribal religions may also have large sway in recently colonized areas and Siberian Russia, and they will dominate the Independent nations of South America and in the non-western or northern Africa. LurkerLordB 22:46, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the imputs so far! I'm making a map now....I'm going to post it in 1750.Flagmania 23:15, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

The nation of New Lithuania, though a Vietnamese vassal state, has a majority of it's population practicing Eastern Orthodox Christianity. This is due to the fact that a majority of the population is descended from pro-independance refugees from (where else?) Lithuania. The purity of ancestry varies wildly, of course.

Yank 00:45, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

About Hungary: Othodoxism is big on parts of Ultraylvania, Serbia and Southern Balkans.Islam is the bigger religion on Tripolitania and Egypt.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:28, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Russia is very difficult, sunni islam would dominate in Kazakhstan and Armenia, and rpobably around Kazan, probably the size of OTL Tatarstan. um...I think that in the russian colonies it would be a mix of orthodox amongst russians and converts and paganism. The Russian siberia, once again, mostly around populated areas like the coasts and around major rivers would be orthodox, and lithuania prodominately orthodox except for mabe the border with Poland and Some parts in OTL West lithuania and Livonia might be catholic where the 13% would reside...Otherwise all unmentioned regions of Russia are orthodox and FInland in the parts that used to be russia orthodox and used to be sweden catholic except for the large cities witch would be mixed by this point. -Lx (leave me a message) 17:32, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Armenia is primarily Armenian Orthodox Christian, not Sunni Muslim. LurkerLordB 22:04, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Update
Well, I'm back for a day, I am very glad to see that everything is still in proper order, as far as I can tell. I regret to say that I am extending my Wikibreak another month in order to deal with school and other things. I will be back in the second week of February. If you have any immediate concerns, I can address them now please… Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 00:34, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

The new stability system for Player-states with the OSS and The CSS and the GSS is it in place?-Lx (leave me a message) 00:43, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes please, I didn't think we should start using it until you officially said the system was complete, but currently the curve is sometimes yeilding,.. strange results (like Poland beating Russia in a war almost!) LurkerLordB 00:46, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

It would add a bit of realism, as sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. Fiction has the need to make cohesive sense plot-wise, but reality doesn't have that restraint.

Yank 00:49, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Well if it's unanimous, I can't argue. Although I might take it over once I get back. Scandinator showed interest, so is there any objection to him controlling it? Yank, I was thinking the same thing when I saw the map that had a large portion that was green and blue, and most of the map is only of a small collection of colors. But didn't the same thing happen in OTL around the same time, as Britain and France started gaining huge empires? That doesn't seem to cause huge problems, as any empire could be destroyed with a large enough coalition.

And as for industrialization, I'm sorry if I never got around to saying this, but I want everyone from now on to declare themselves going into different stages, because not everyone necessarily will want to industrialize. And another thing, if a country declares independence, it's still yours (see rules), that's what lighter colors are for. Gray countries mean only mods can choose what happens to them. Detectivekenny (Info; Talk) 01:14, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

So the Hungarian colony needs to be shown as the lighter color. Speaking of that, Collie ought to start saying what's going on there. LurkerLordB 01:46, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Where you mean there?if you mean Newfoundland/Újfundlandi, i'm posting about it.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and, if one colony becomes independent, and you still has six colonies and two vassals, your maximum expansion is 3500 or 3800 sq km in a half turn?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 06:44, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

I see, I thought that they would be in a seperate bullet point, but I guess not. Would that be better to do? LurkerLordB 03:52, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

French-Lombard War (1766)
Can somebody make a algorythm?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 19:08, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

As this was made way before the new stability was implemented, we'll use the old one. LurkerLordB 22:40, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

France

 * Close to the location of the War: 4
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * France(L)/Burgundy(MV)/Algeria(MV)/Arabia(MV)/Sweden(M)/Estonia(MV)/Flanders(MV)/Arabia(Swedish)(MV)Hungary (S): 21
 * Expansion: -2
 * Military Expansion: 5
 * Stability: 23.7^1.25/1.25^23.7*2.5*8=5.2
 * Motive (Political): 5
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 3
 * Editcount:562
 * Time:1*8*4*9=288
 * (562/288)*pi=6.13
 * Total= 52

Lombardy

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * Lombardy(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 0.2^1.25/1.25^0.2*2.5*7=2
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:5
 * Total=36

Result
42/78 = 0.538461538 - 0.5 = 0.038461538 0.038461538 x 2 = 0.076923076 = 7.69%

French Victory.France has right to 7,69% of Lombard territory.

Discussion
I assume that the Lombard portion will be somewhat independent, or at least will be after another war when they get more territory? Because Naples will side with them if they think France is going to destroy the Italian language and culture. LurkerLordB 01:44, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hungary is only joining because they want to reestabilish Verona.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:55, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned the Lombard Confederation was founded to act as a political counterweight to the powerful nation of Naples, and were not the expansionalist warmongers that Kunarian turned the Venetians into. The event describing Lombardy's expansion suggest that the expansion into the neighboring states was bloodless, again unlike Venice. For all we know the residents of Verona were absorbed into Lombardy without local resistance.

Yank 23:38, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Future of AGC
With Zagoria probably not returning. I was wondering what we shou.d do with the AGC. Everyone please vote mod votes are worth two. If you vote to divide the AGC please put it in the correct area

Split Prussia, England, Czech, Austria from Brandenburg

 * 1) CrimsonAssassin 22:26, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Total split with at least 10 German States and England

 * 1) VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:35, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Yank 05:07, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) Scandinator 11:46, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) LurkerLordB 01:23, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) Flagmania 03:29, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I don't know. in case that he returns in spring, i will vote for only England to be separated. if is definitive that he won't come back, i will vote for the 10-state option.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 11:25, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

When is the spring brreak in the US? We could have the German states separating instead of uniting in OTL. Scandinator

Sincerely, i don't know, i'm brazilian. but in the northern hemisphere, spring extends from March to June.But, if the 10-state wins, which wll be the states formed?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:18, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

The states would be Saxony, Brandenburg, Rhinish-Walienstein, Austria, Czechland, Prussia, Bavaria, Heveltic Confederation, Rhinland-Saarland, Flemland and maybe more. I will post a map when I get home. Scandinator 11:35, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Austria is already independent. Also, Switzerland should be independent (it is the sort of corner-area that borders Burgundy and Lombardy) LurkerLordB 01:14, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Spring break in Quebec is 5-9 or 5-16 of march depending if your school has alot of ped days or decides to use them to prolong breaks-Lx (leave me a message) 01:50, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Also, this had better not turn into some sort of giant power-grab for Sweden. LurkerLordB 02:14, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

If Austria is already independant, why isn't the nation on the map? The 1775 flag clearly has the Austrian region under Anglo-German control. I believe that Anglo-Germany should be "balkanized" for precedent's sake, at least. The last time a major user went away and never came back was the Ottoman Empire, and we mercilessly cut them to shreds. Why should Zagoria get special treatment?

Yank 05:32, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Austria is not independent. Moravia is.Oh, and he mentioned the Heveltic Confederation (ie Switzerland)--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:16, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Collie is right. Austria is not independant. And the Helvetic Confederation is the offical name for Switzerland. Here are the maps.Scandinator 11:35, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Two to seven. It looks like at least Enlgland will go and the process will begin in 1777 and end within two decades.Scandinator 11:47, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that prussia and brandenburg need to be united...prussia was the dominant state before...although if you dont want it like that its fine.-Lx (leave me a message) 11:58, January 12, 2012 (UTC)



I'm going to call for Welsh independence too, if the Welsh nationalists saw all of those German states gaining independence from England, then the Welsh would want independence too. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 12:07, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I am with VonGlusenberg on the Wales issue.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 12:14, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I like the name Bohemia better than the "Czechland" label given for it.

Yank 16:49, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I'd thought that independent nation had been Austria. It seems strange for Prussia and Brandenburg to stay together. Remember, in this timeline most of Prussia was taken by Japan, then Sweden, then Anglo-Germany, so it wouldn't be the dominant state like in OTL. Czechland sounds fine to me, but I don't really care. I agree on the Wales issue. My only question is why are there two nations with long panhandles just to border France? I'd break the two panhandles aqay to be independent. Also, that map is very old, what year did you use it from? (I'm still voting for it to remain together, as my nation is sending so much aid). LurkerLordB 22:27, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Here is my proposal for the division (which also has an updated surrounding map with the new states being Wales, England, Hanover, Brandenburg, Prussia, Rhineland, Westphalia, Saxony, Flemland,Helvetic Confederation, Austria,Bavaria, and Czechland. The colonies can be divided among the four with coastlines. LurkerLordB 23:04, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Explication of my changes: I had Wales break away (because many people requested it, and in-game it is getting the most support. I had the Rhine areas break away and united to form one nation to make it look prettier, and I had the rest of the merge to form Westphalia. I had hanover break away from Saxony, I had Bavaria shrink a little as Saxony made up for lost space, and I had Brandenburg bigger as they are the most powerful area (the seat of power of Anglo-Germany, there's no way tiny weak Prussia would take so much of them. Other than that, the changes are just me not being able to perfectly recreate the old borders. LurkerLordB 00:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Fun facts: religions of my map: I assume the Freedom of Religion policy was kept. LurkerLordB 00:20, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wales, England, Rhineland, Flemland-Solid Catholic
 * Westphalia-Mostly Catholic, Waldensian Minority
 * Bavaria-Mostly Catholic, Hussite Minority
 * Helvetic C.-Solid Waldensian
 * Austria-Catholic/Hussite Mix, small Waldensian minority
 * Czechland-Solid Hussite
 * Hanover, Saxony,-Mostly Catholic, Schmittist Minority
 * Brandenburg-Mostly Catholic, Schmittist & Hussite Minorities
 * Prussia-Mostly Schmittist, Hussite Minority

Naples has changed it's postion, and I change mine, under the condition that we use my map. LurkerLordB 01:23, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I vote for using Lurker's map.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:09, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Prussia is that large as while AGC disintergreated the Southern and Western states occupieed Brandenburg's attention. Prussia launched a surprize attack and with Saxony beat the last remanents of the Brandenburgs. Brandenburg should not have a coastline as should be much smaller as it is the main state right now that controls the AGC and the others would be attacking it.Scandinator

Prussia is so weak, and Brandenburg is so strong, it just doesn't make any sense for them to be able to take so much power. Plus, most of the land isn't even Prussian. Brandenburg is still very strong, the strongest area of Anglo-Germany. Prussia, on the other hand, was conquered first by Japan and then later by Sweden, then broke away in a war fought primarily in it. Also, the Prussian culture, a mixture of German and Japanese, is only strong in the part which I have as Prussia, your map has it like the Swiss rule large portions of Germany, two different cultures. It makes sense that the Prussian culture group would be trying to break away, in your map they become a minority despite the seat of power being in their nation. It makes no sense for Prussia expand so much, only to have themselves be in the minority and ruled over by pure Germans. It's a strange design for a nation anyways, with it being stretched so far across like that. There's no reason they would want to be designed like that. The area north of Brandenburg would probably break away and join Brandenburg right after as Brandenburg is culturally, lingually, and religiously far more similar. LurkerLordB 21:57, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

But what will happen with Brandenburg's colonies?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 07:14, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

England takes the ones in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Prussia and Brandenburg split the one in South America. Is that ok with everyone?Scandinator 22:18, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Who get's the AGC's Californian colony? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:16, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, good question. Maybe China or Japan could have it?Scandinator

While I wouldn't mind Nippon gaining a colony in the Americas, I'm not too sure if it would be plausible for a colony full of Germans wanting to join Nippon or China. Maybe they gain independence as New Germania or something. Depends what nationality of colonists are the majority. VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 00:34, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

And I thought it was impossble that Sweden could annex a de facto independant country full of a people with a Dutch/Japanese hybrid culture and keep it peaceful. I was proven wrong by centuries of nothing happening in the former Japanese colony of Doitsuchou which, regardless of popular belief, did control the territory of the Netherlands.

Yank 01:44, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

I think that the German side of the Union is getting short-changed, perhaps Hanover should get the New Zealand one, and Brandenburg gets the South African one, and Prussia gets the Californian one, and England gets the South American one and Wales gets the Australian one? Then it is divided among all of the splinter nations with seaports each getting a single colony, that seems the easiest to do.LurkerLordB 02:39, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

My plan for the Union of Cymbria under Itsaygahan rule, if that alright with everyone. Also shows Itsaygahan Isle of Man. Mumby 17:26, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Since you devoted so much time to getting Wales independent, giving Itsagahi Wales as a puppet state is reasonable. LurkerLordB 17:31, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Stability
As according to DK and with no objection I will take over stability again and start from this turn (1775). I will be using the new system that is there and keep track of the CSS off the website as it is too much of a pain to update with my computer disagreeing with the wiki format. The new system including the new war algorythm will be fully implemented with me keeping track of the years. Scandinator

Can't you just have a list of nations, so we can see whether it would be practical to go to war with another nation? Just like so we can estimate if victory is achievable. LurkerLordB 01:25, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naples-30 algorithm points

The thing I must protest about in the CSS counting is that Expansion is -1. THis is becasue we aleady have a -1 point for expanison in the last 10 years. this will extend that expansion to perhaps a long time and put russia, for one in the negative numbers for a good while. and, how far back does the CSS go? to the begining of the Governement, the past century? I propose we get rid of the expansion becasue A. It realy gives the incentive NOT to expand into unclaimed territories bordering your nation becasue you will have to work on economy like 200 years later just to get your OSS to 0 and we already have a -1 point for the past 10 year penalty in the algorithm. -Lx (leave me a message) 21:30, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

True, we already have a negative for expansion already, but maybe you should have brought this up earlier. LurkerLordB 16:02, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

One is wiped in 10 turns the other lasts forever.Scandinator 21:58, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

And you actualy think that expansion 100 years ago into uninhabited areas will affect the stability 150 years don the line? I think not. -Lx (leave me a message) 01:14, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Siberia is not unhabitated. is just too sparsely inhabitated. imagine the population density of the island of Newfoundland in 1500, smething like that, 0,05 persons for square kilometer (5000 persons in 100,000 square kilometers.).Siberia's density should be less than that, or something like that.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:42, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thats basicaly what I meant...its too sparsely populated for those people that inhabit it to make any sort of fuss and threated the stability of a nation that has a population of 80 000 000.-Lx (leave me a message) 18:46, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, does expansion penalties and such carry over after a government change? Because aren't government changes supposed to wipe everything clean? Also, is there a list somewhere we can access so we can see our stability? To make sure a. we can get in a war and not be crushed and b. to make sure our government isn't about to fall. LurkerLordB 18:48, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, the algoryth one stays, but i think that the one of the stability score is reseted, along with the score.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 21:11, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I meant, I am pretty sure all stability modifiers should reset after government changes (except for things like population or number of colonies or things like that) LurkerLordB 21:16, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

The expansion penalty makes no sense...I dont feel like working on my economy for 60 years just so I can fix the -30 for my 20 years of siberian expansion! We need to get rid of one of the penalties, the algorithm one, or the Stability one becasue having both just makes no sense whatsoever. -Lx (leave me a message) 21:48, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I say as long as it resets after a change of government, it should be OK. LurkerLordB 21:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

France's inactivity
Hello! Sorry for not advise before, but I'm on vacations, and the wireless of my hotel is not very good. Anyway, France will be inactive until my return in sunday. So, when I come back I will read the posts and all the stuff. Bye --Galaguerra1 23:54, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialization Update
Industrialization and its perks beyond Stage 1 will not be given unless an announcement of stage upgrade is made. I will post another update of the industrialization map and Collie - I will send a pure copy of the PM map from 1775 (no minor colour variations) on Sunday so colour counter will work.Scandinator 11:44, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Naples will get to stage 1 in about 1780, and then will stay on schedule. LurkerLordB 01:26, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

But How we are going to announce this?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:21, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Here is a proposal for the Stage Upgrade Plan.
 * To be eligable for Stage 2 you must announce the start of industrialization (stage 1).
 * To start Stage 3 you must open a rail link during Stage 2.
 * To be allowed to enter Stage 4 you must implement the assembly line at the end of Stage 3.Scandinator 09:54, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

And i qualify to the first point?--Collie Kaltenbrunner 10:21, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Stage 1 is automatic by area colour code. If the above is not reached by the time your colour progresses to Stages 2, 3 & 4; you are devalued to the colour below you (e.g. yellow to green)Scandinator 11:48, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

No, i was trying to ask if i announced the start of industrialization.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 15:54, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Still, having to post exactly that the country reached stage II of industrialization is too artificial, as those divisions were estabilished after those events had long taken place.I support your new Stage Upgrade Plan, specially because is the best way of doing those stage upgrades, without making the posts sounding like: a "Level Up!"--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:24, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Also you are qualified for Stage 2 in 1790.Scandinator 22:09, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

When does Nippon reach stage one? I ask cause Nippon is in all different colours and I don't know which one I should refer to. :P VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 22:49, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

1800.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:47, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 13:31, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

China is now in Stage 2. CrimsonAssassin 21:42, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Update II
I moved some of the already-finished threads to the Archive.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:21, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

AGC Inactivity
may I take over the Anglo-German Commowealth until Zagoria comes back, and if he doesnt, switch to it permanently? DeanSims 16:03, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

No. you would have to ask his permission first, and he probably won't respond until he comes back.if he comes back.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 17:13, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

What happens if he does come back now that the AGC has split up? <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 17:20, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

That's why i didn't vote for the 10-state option.if he comes back, i would vote for the division of Prussia, Wales, England, Bohemia, Austria and Bavaria.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:09, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless, he has still lost loads of territory. I'd personally think giving him a less prominent/important country if he comes back would be best in case he doesn't return again for a while, <font color="#000000">VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 18:30, January 14, 2012 (UTC).

so can I take over? DeanSims 18:38, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

You're going to have to choose one of the successor states, as the Anglo-German Commonwealth is well on it's way to total collapse. Zagoria might return to Brandenburg, so that leaves a grand total of twelve nations to choose from when all is said and done.

Yank 18:44, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

which one is more powerful? DeanSims 18:51, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

But, as far as i know, switching nations is not allowed.Roguejedi was a isolate case, and it is nothing like thi case.DeanSims still is playing as Inca, so by switching nations, he would be opening a precedent.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 18:58, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, you shouldn't be able to switch your nation for no reason. Why do you want to switch anyways? LurkerLordB 01:31, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Because DeanSims pops in every few weeks and sees that Zagoria is gone and the AGC looks so good on the map and therefore, not content with his nation which he deserted and came back as it was being destroyed wants a new one the drop and pick up once a fortnight. Scandinator 02:48, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

It would actually be somewhat funny for him to take over the AGC, and then the moment he starts with that it gets destroyed into 15 pieces as well. But I digress, it's really pointless to take a new nation (and don't post something saying that the ICR asks Russia to take it over so that you can say that your only nation got taken over and that's why you are getting a new one) LurkerLordB 16:01, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Turan-Bulgaria War (1779)
Without the stability numbers, I can't complete this. LurkerLordB 22:55, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Turan

 * Location: 3 (they are fairly close, but their seaports are further, having to go all around Anatolia, through straights and islands and whatnot)
 * Attacker's Advantage: 1
 * Turan(L)Ottomans(MV)/Mesopotamia(MV): 8
 * Expansion: -0
 * Military Expansion: 6
 * Stability: 32+0
 * Motive (Religious): 7
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance: 9
 * Editcount:284
 * Time:1*7*5*1=35
 * (284/35)*pi=25.49
 * Total= 76

Bulgaria

 * At the location of the War: 5
 * High ground: 2
 * Bulgaria(L): 4
 * Expansion: 0
 * Military Expansion: 0
 * Stability: 3.1^1.25/1.25^3.1*2.5*7=36
 * Motive (Life or death): 10
 * Participation: 10
 * Chance:0
 * Total=67

Result
Victory for Turan. Turan could ideally take (76/(67+76)*2)-1=6.23% (p) of Bulgaria, This must be plugged into the  equation (p)*(1-1/(2x)), where x will be number of years of the war and p will be amount gained from the original algorithm. Saamwiil can determine how long it will be.

Discussion
Can the stability for Turan at least be made now? We really shouldn't have declared it to have begun if it wasn't ready to be implemented yet, we should have waited. LurkerLordB 22:00, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

ATTENTION: Add your nation's government origin to the list
We need a list of when each nation's government has begun for stability. Here is a list so far: If your nation is not on the list, or if the information for your nation is wrong, please change/add to the list right now (that means go into my posts behind Nippon, click enter and add your own info, you can edit the list itself). Please post a brief description of the government change as well. LurkerLordB 23:12, January 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naples-1751 (Carlo overthrown)
 * Turan-1715 (Ottomans defeated and replaced)
 * Sweden-1747 (union with France)
 * France-1747 (union with Sweden)
 * China- 1732 (government reform & new nobility & provinces after a rebellion)
 * Nippon- 1750 (independent from Vietnam)
 * Hungary - 1733 (Erdődy dynasty comes into power, replacing the Hunyádi dynasty)
 * Russia - 1689 (Czarina overthrown, new reforms implemented)
 * Spain - 1710 (monarchy restores full order over nation in civil disorder for centuries)
 * Vietnam - 1750 (pure guess. Open to adjustment)
 * Finland- 1714 (Union with Russia)

I honestly don't remember the last date aplicable for Vietnam.

Yank 05:16, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised that Russia isn't on the list. Last time I went to war it was under heated debate, and I think that we decided on 1689, the beginning of reforms of Peter that introduced new nobility, completely redecorated the Russian system if governrment, and tha was also the year that Sophia was overthrown. I don't think that france-Sweden union affects Sweden more than France, so France has to have a different start date. This was the same argument to discredit the Russia-Finland union as a start date for Russia in 1710 or 1714 because it really didn't affect Russia as much as Finland. -Lx from iPhone

I'd forgotten what date we had decided on. YOU CAN ADD YOUR NATION TO THE LIST! I don't want to be shouting, but I want it to be clear that you can edit my post to add your name to the list like Collie did, I didn't want people to post "I started in 1702, can you add me???" and I have to do all the work. LurkerLordB

My point was that Fance and Sweden's dates shouldnt be the same because it affects sweden and not france at all. this was the exact same argument that shot down russia and finland's union in 1714 as Russia's date but secured it as Finland's date.-Lx (leave me a message) 22:06, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Find a better date for France then. Using the older date helped you in that war, if you had used 1714 you would have lost the war. LurkerLordB 22:15, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Also if I could get the non player nations that would help in doing much faster war algorythms.Scandinator (talk) 10:13, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

OCD Attack
Hey everyone, I must announce I had a major OCD attack yesterday and ... FULLY STANDARDIZED THE MAP. Ever get tried of inconsistent borders? Annoying nation colour changes? ColourCounter freezing? FRET NO MORE!!Scandinator (talk) 22:21, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Only problem-Neapolitan Tunisia is part of the main nation now, not a colony, so it should have the dark border. LurkerLordB 00:06, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

The UAA has a darker uglier color now.....Flagmania 02:11, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Probably to differentiate it from Nippon. LurkerLordB 02:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

But this is good for me, as my map overall has a darker color than the others.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 05:34, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Industrialism
NEW MAP!!!

Why is Naples green? When 2 of my colonies of Ricasolia and Tamilia and my puppet state of Israel are yellow, when I am closer to Russia than Spain is? Why am I at the same level as Ethiopia, on the same level as Darfur, on the same level as Benin? When on the original map I was yellow, and I have lost nothing which would make me move down a level on the industrialization? I can see no logical reason for Naples not being yellow. LurkerLordB

Oops. I knew I'd made a mistake somewhere.Scandinator (talk)

Thank you! LurkerLordB 01:21, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

This will soon need correction. first for the new German states borders. then for overall errors.--Collie Kaltenbrunner 09:01, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I know...Scandinator (talk) 10:59, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Wait? What overall errors?Scandinator (talk) 05:20, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

--Collie Kaltenbrunner 13:00, January 20, 2012 (UTC) There fixed the mapScandinator (talk) 22:17, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Sharzur borders only Green [Kurdistan, Assyria], orange [Persia] or red nations [Russia/Armenia], so it does not make sense that Sharzur is Green, when it should be yellow.
 * 2) Mesopotamia should be Green, as it does not border any orange nation.
 * 3) Florence and Siena are yellow, when, due to them being Napolitan vassals, they should be green.The same can be applied to Ricasolia amd Tamilia, while Istoias is light blue.
 * 4) Tripolitania is a Greek theme, not a colony, so it should be onn the same color as Greece.
 * 5) The aforementioned German states.But with this one, wait until i post the new map.
 * 6) New Vietnam is yellow, and Vietnam is green.
 * 1) Sharzur had three wars against Persia and are in no shape to industrialize. (Note there will be nations that can industrialize but choose not to for various reasons resulting in demotion - Finland)
 * 2) Mesopotamia borders a yellow nation it can go in the green phase
 * 3) Ok good point.
 * 4) Didn't know that
 * 5) The German states can all industrialize in the yellow phase
 * 6) New Vietnam borders an orange colony. Meanwhile Vietnam itself borders only yellow nations.

Stability implemented too soon?
It appears that we officially declared the beginning of the new stability system too soon, as we have no stability scores of any nation, several important questions by me and Lx have not been totally addressed, and the Turan-Bulgaria war is going to damage Turan's stability due to lasting really long, when the only reason it has been so long is because Scandinator is not ready yet. I think it was a mistake to implement stability before any of the new system was set up, and I say we should go back to the stability curve for Turan's current conflict and any future conflicts until the new system is all the way set up, because now it is not set up at all. LurkerLordB 01:13, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I can give Turan's stability score right now. At 1779 it was 32 and it has stayed at that plus the war has only lasted for 4 years Turan can gain more of Bulgaria if they drag it on. But I still need the start dates of Hanthawaddy, Vietnam and Itsaygahi as the war algorythms for them are not attainable.Scandinator (talk) 04:29, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

My question has not been answered still: how do we determine how long the war will last if the winner is an NPC nation? Random.org, or maybe a new chance equation (like using the 10s place instead of the 100s or something, with 0 meaning they take no territory) ? LurkerLordB 21:48, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I dunno Chance, a pertcentage of the stability converted to years or until they drop?? LETS VOTE. Mod votes are two. Add your own ranges if you are a mod and vote under them.

1 to 9

 * 1) LurkerLordB 22:00, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

50%

 * 1) Scandinator (talk) 21:57, January 20, 2012 (UTC)

I'm Sorry
I had another OCD attack all over the nations page...... Africa took a whileScandinator (talk) 11:48, January 20, 2012 (UTC)