Talk:Provisional Indiana (1983: Doomsday)

Guys remember the. All new articles must be marked with the proposal template. Mitro 12:03, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Doomsday
This section has a lot of issues. First, Dan Quayle wasn't VP until 1989, six years after Doomsday. Second, I can't find any information that even hints that he said such a thing to Orr. The whole section contradicts the already established POD of the TL and really needs to be removed or revised. Mitro 12:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you removed the references to Quayle, but the stuff on Orr is still an issue. You seem to suggest he knew Doomsday was coming and he planned for it. Again this is unlikely and I have not found anything to suggest that Orr was preparing for a nuclear war OTL. If this is the case than this article contradicts the POD still. Mitro 18:27, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I fixed it and it seems that most of the state goes in chaos, and the attack would of also killed Orr and most of the Goverment. I'm sorry I dont understand this, "POD", what is that?

Perryz101 03:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * POD is short for "point of divergence". Its the point where all history as we know it changes, in this case there is a nuclear war on September 26, 1983. That being said, everything before that point has to happen exactly as it did in our history. Mitro 03:35, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana (1983: Doomsday)
Hi, Perryz. I suggest that you read this article before doing anything else on this new republic. This time line is a group effort, and we need to check what has been written about an area first before we jump into an article. The information so far is mostly based on this map, though exceptions have been made. Any utilization of Dan Quayle has to assume he was not in Washington DC or was one of those that escaped somehow. If he was with George Bush, for instance, he would have ended up in Australia! SouthWriter 05:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yes I understand Southwriter and I fixed my mistakes with Dan Quayle and Orr, Perryz101 20:45, April 22, 2010 (UTC)



I was also thinking of a new map, that alot of the cities might of lived, and could of maybe made contact by 2010,the cities of West Lafeyette, Lafeyette, Richmond,Kokomo,Frankfort, Muncie,Wabash,Marion,Warsaw,Logansport,Monticello,Delphi,Flora,Crawfordsville,Winchester,Portland,Rochester,Anderson and that Terre Haute with Brazil might of lived, but I am thinking about the Indiana National Guard, and the 181st Intel wing and that it could of been a target, Peru also could of been destroyed.Perryz101 21:16, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Rep_of_Indiana_damage.png, again, Perry. You have done some great homework! Your list of towns (looking to be county seats, it seems) is fabulous. However, I looked up their locations on Google Earth and produced the map to the left based on the FEMA map overlaid with your map. I added some counties, and noted the damage to some of the cities you suppose could have survived. Of the ones listed, only Kokomo looks to have taken a direct hit (if we go by the FEMA map). I am not sure about what the map makers were thinking with an off center hit with Terre Haut, but the way they made the map, the southwestern part of the city is in the 50% damage (orange) ring. However the center of the blast seems to have been in the northeastern quarter, putting Brazil inside of the 25% ring. Therefore, I'd say Terre Haut was 75%-80% destroyed.


 * The other cities your mentioned are marked without comment. A good spread across the state!


 * I was not criticizing on Dan Quayle, by the way, but commenting that as a prominent Indianian he might be useful in the development of this republic -- IF he survived. SouthWriter 16:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

I really like the map you gave me, and the the nuclear strikes look good, and the counties also do too, but I think we should talk a little more about Dan Quayle and Terre Haute/Brazil and hold off until we can prove that it wasn't a direct hit and that Dan Quayle lived.

The matter of getting fuel to the people is large, and if we could get Trenton Gas Field, located in easten-central Indiana it would mean fuel to the people, Power is provided by wind mills, with about 531 wind towers. Perryz101 19:41, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * [I changed the format on your reply to more easily repond.]


 * The creators of this timeline left things unclear about who escaped Washington, DC. There was at most two hours warning before most communications were wiped out and the bombs started exploding. Reagan and Bush escaped from the two most bombed cities in the world (logistics of it were left unexplained), and Bush ended up in the bunker meant for the Congress (who apparently didn't make it there). Nothing is said about choice Senators and/or Representatives meeting Bush at the bunker. Apparently no bunker inside the beltway would have been safe enough, so anyone who escaped had to have found deep shelter within an hour's drive of the capitol. Dan Quayle may not have been in Washington that weekend, so some investigation would be need to find this out.


 * It doesn't matter too much about Terre Haute, unless you want to spare it totally. The FEMA maps are just a guide anyway. The Indiana page doesn't even list Indianapolis, but the capitol would be an obvious target (FEMA has three or four blasts over the city!).


 * I checked to see what I could find on the Trenton Gas Field. It seems that there is a lot of oil there, but since the natural gas was depleted so quickly from the 1880's to about 1910, there is no easy way to get the oil out of the ground. Usually, the natural gas is used to push the oil up from underneath, so it might take as much energy to pull it out of the ground as it would provide in petrolium products. Perhaps the windmills could be used to pump oil. Then, there would be the problem of refining the oil. Natural gas needs very little treatment to be used. But crude oil is almost useless! SouthWriter 05:09, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Back to the map. Kokomo has to go, the hit upon it is almost direct. Nearby Peru would have survived a direct hit, but would have been abandoned due to it's closeness to the blast and immediate fallout. You need to remove Kokomo from the list of "other cities." SouthWriter 15:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Alright,I'm thinking that Terre Haute is got to go due to the Intel and Newport Chemical Depot.


 * Well, Terre Haute does seem to be a target in the 1999 maps. However, was Intel even in Indiana in 1983? They had been in buisiness for over a decade, but they did not really get to be so influencial until they, like Microsoft, made a deal with IBM and brought "PC's" into just about every home in America. And that was after 1983. I agree with NCD, that is the explosion above Terre Haute on the map. SouthWriter 15:41, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Indiana National Guard had a 181st Tactical Fighter Group (1962–1992) and it says it also had fighters they're too.Perryz101 16:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Potential
Though I agree further research is needed, I think the idea has potential. Indiana has a smaller population than most of the rust belt, and a more spread out one. I wouldn't be surprised to see enough infrastructure and agricultural base, along with a core of National Guard or regular Army forces, in existence following Doomsday to hammer together a regional republic in a ring around the Indianapolis and central IN strikes, more or less. Possibility of some kind of association with Superior and later function as a bridge between Superior and Kentucky/Virginia when contact is reestablished, maybe.--Loughery111 16:07, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's poorly developed as is, but with some development could easily become a very viable proposal. I honestly don't see any "Republic" encompassing the entire state but several small-to-medium city states within its borders as of TTL 2010; that was my idea when I wrote the Indiana 1983: Doomsday article. I also wrote that as a jumping off point for other editors, so just as I told Loughery that my South Bend-is-abandoned blurb is not written in stone, neither is it written in stone that there is no "Republic of Indiana". If you can make it plausible, then it should be given strong consideration for canonization. Best of luck to you!BrianD 17:53, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Government
First, why change from the established and familiar representative democracy, headed by a single person (a proven formula in times of crisis where a quick decision is often needed)? It is not clear why this republic has changed so drastically. Is this because the counties have developed their own systems and do not wish to work as one - thus a "confederation" among them is needed instead? [By the way, "county" and "canton" are virtually the same thing, sort of like "Republic" and "Commonwealth" - different original languages, but same meaning.]

Second, when bouncing between the known (republican) and the hypothetical, you seem to be mixing terms. A Chancellor becomes a President a paragraph later, for instance. If you are going to use the newmodel, use the terms consistently. SouthWriter 16:53, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

The counties did have they're own systems, and then joined together and liked the Swiss ran they're nation so they basicly just copyed, the President and Chancellor are very diffrent Lucas Alexander Schad is the President and the Chancellor is being voted on.Perryz101 19:21, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * And so, what we have here is the several counties (ten presently, as I understand you line up) send two delegates each to the capital, and the national council has 100 members drawn at large based on population. This corresponds with OTL Senate and House of Representatives. It then is up to these two bodies to chose the Federal Council (I would suppose from among themselves) which corresponds to our President, Vice President and cabinet. I took the liberty of looking up "Chancellor" in wikipedia::


 * "In Switzerland, the Federal Chancellor (Bundeskanzler, Chancelier fédéral, Cancelliere della Confederazione) is elected by the Swiss parliament. He or she heads the Federal Chancellery, the general staff of the seven-member executive Federal Council, the Swiss government. The Chancellor participates in the meetings of the seven Federal Councilors with a consultative vote and prepares the reports on policy and activities of the council to parliament. The chancellery is responsible for the publication of all federal laws." 'Chancellor - Wikipedia'


 * So, in Switzerland, the chancellor is at the same time "moderator" of the meeting, and "secretary" of the group of seven. This title, then, would take the role of the President in cabinet meetings, and afterwards the role of the federal printing office in getting the laws decided in council to the courts and law enforcement agencies. This whole system is far from a "direct democracy." I find it hard to imagine a population of struggling counties deciding to do away with the representative government they had lived with since statehood for a foreign system such as this. It may seem quaint and "neat" to you, but it seems rather unnatural for a bunch of farmers in the midwest to decide to do when they "start over." SouthWriter 20:20, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Mhm...I can see what your coming from, but these arnt just "A bunch of Farmers", clearly thats what its too you, to me its my fellow hoosiers, I will consider to turn it into a republic.Perryz101 20:44, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Alright I think Indiana is better off as a Republic, your right Hoosiers woulden go that far from they're old goverment.Perryz101 21:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Littles
Hmm.... One family -- with the women prominent! Anyone you know, or are they just made-up? SouthWriter 15:46, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the last name, first name.. no, most of the family is women and not really political, so mostly made up...I just liked the last name, so I used it.Perryz101 01:42, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Nation Infobox
Everytime I try to improve your nation infobox, your next revision changes it back. I use the source code to change it the appearance so that it reads something like this:

Republic of Indiana

Timeline: 1983: Doomsday

_______ _________


 * ______| |________|

flag of Ind CoA of Ind

Instead of the awkward

Republic of Indiana (1983:

Doomsday)

_______ _________


 * ______| |________|

flag of RoI CoA of RoI

(1983:DD) (1983:DD)

All I am doing is trying to make your infobox conform to the others. Are you switching it back, or is it the templte reverting on its own?

[It actually took me longer to make those facsimles than to take a couple of screen shots! SouthWriter 22:22, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Nope, Ive havent done anything.Perryz101 22:37, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Turn off rich text editor. Anytime you try to edit an infobox with it on it removes the name. Mitro 22:40, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I always edit info boxes with the rich text editor turned off. The templates are notoriously unreliable. For some reason, when Perry makes a change in the text of the article, the changes I make to the info box disappear when he saves the changes. Perhaps he is using the "Edit this page" feature instead of editing sections individually. --SouthWriter 23:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

What are you trying to do?Perryz101 19:17, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just spent an hour or so debugging the infobox on your article. While I was there I tweeked the formatting to make the site look a little better. I tried not to change any of your essensial information in the process. I ended up "replacing" the infobox with one configured a little bit differently, but still maintaining the information there. SouthWriter 21:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Republic_of_Indiana_Counties.pngd we add a map to the information box?Perryz101 22:26, April 25, 2010 (UTC)Republic_Of_Indiana.png
 * Sure. Fill in any additional counties on your map that you think are justified. Post the map here and I'll post it to the infobox. I'll run any edit of the map by you if I see any discrepancies. --SouthWriter 15:12, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, heres the map, I have added some counties, mostly less-populated areas, Perryz101 21:43, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

To the left is what I came up with. There was a area between the Kokomo and Indianapolis destuction into which I added a corridor. Otherwise ther would be little communication between the west (Lafayette) and the East (Muncie). I'm feeling that the nuke that took out Ft. Wayne would have left the NE corner as undesirable as the area around Chicago in the NW. The SW corner is Terre Haute, which we decided had taken a hit.

However, I think the red counties near Indianapolis could be clamed as the corridor between east and west. We might also recolor the center (where my map is white, as red counties as well. Much of the area was destroyed and might have some residual radioactivity, but it could be at managed by the government (and thus be "part of" the nation. SouthWriter 22:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, GOPZACK has offerd Indiana in the Dixie Alliance, hes making a border map, I'm waiting for his map frist. Do you think Indiana would join?Perryz101 04:01, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally, I don't think the Dixie Alliance is "good" for the Republic of Indiana. I assume that southern Indiana, though, will be called the "state of Indiana" as part of the Commonwealth of Kentucky. That is what is happening with the Virginian Republic, anyway. SouthWriter 16:12, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Here's the map (I hope) GOPZACK 04:44, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Dident work GOPZACK.Perryz101 06:08, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Try this, & you can just call me, Zack. --GOPZACK 15:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I made some changes to the Indiana map to reflect the difference between territory Kentucky claims and what they actually control. I based this map roughly off from the Kentucky map on its article. [EDIT] I'm not a great map maker so I apoligize for the crudity of the model. I also tried to work in South's map. Mitro 16:46, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think the map can work and Indiana can join the Dixie Alliance.Perryz101 23:17, April 27, 2010 (UTC)



South Bend
Did South Bend live? and If it did ,would it join its old state?Perryz101 19:18, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Canon says that South Bend was abandoned. Mitro 19:26, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * So an entire town vanish?, I have a problem with that, did they leave to local citys like Wabash or what?Perryz101 19:31, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is it hard to believe a town would be abandoned? There are plenty of precedents in our own history. Furthermore in this AH we have entire sections of the globe being cut of from trade and having their governments collapsing. South Bend is large enough that they are going to have incredible trouble providing its citizens with food, water, medical supplies, clothing, etc. If people can't get it in South Bend, they are going to leave to find it somewhere else. As for where that might be I have no idea. Mitro 19:34, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I understand them leaving, but the where too is a big part, and if the town was abandoned, it could be re-built and move in a population, It would take time, but It could be done.Perryz101 19:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess the next question is, why? Considering the great die off after Doomsday (for many of the same reasons stated above along with fallout, famine, disease, social disorder, etc.) would there be people even willing to rebuild a dilapitated ghost town when there are living towns that need people for other things? What benefit does anyone get for resettling South Bend? Also remember that for at least two decades there wouldn't be anyone around to fight fires. Large parts of the town could already have been burned to the ground. This makes any rebuilding expensive, so whatever benefit people get from rebuilding the town it has to be something that covers those costs. Mitro 20:07, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the area is still farms and South Bend could become a center for farmers in the area, and could bring back the city.Perryz101 20:11, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * But there are also farms in a lot of other areas that you are claiming under the Republic. Since oil is going to be scarce, I'm assuming that farming is going to be a lot more labor intensive since tractors and other types of farming equipment are going to be unavailable. As Lou said on Talk:Navajo Nation (1983: Doomsday), we can expect that every able-bodied citizen will be needed for things like farming, road-building, military duty, and every cottage industry that supports them. Does the Republic have the time, people and resources to reestablish farming in the area? Mitro 20:16, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Biodissel would take the place of fuel like in much of the Republic. It would take time to rebuild the area, but people would be drawn to the area for land and wealth, South Bend wouldent be as close as the size as its former self, but would be a center for the local farmers.Perryz101 20:23, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would the republic even have the resources to make that? Even then its only be a little more than 2 decades, would they even be producing the stuff enough that they could supply even the poorest farmer with it? IMO, I don't think so. Only the government and the very rich will have access to the fuel necessary to run vehicles. [EDIT] Also consider the fact that the Republic is going to be living by the skin of its teeth for a long time. How do you convince hungry farmers that they should give up some of their acres so people can use it for fuel. From that POV it is probably more efficient just to use human labor. Mitro 20:33, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can see where your coming from, but people would most likly go to the area around South Bend for land.They would farm by human labor.Perryz101 20:48, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Religion
Earlier in the week, I wrote a note here, but for some reason forgot to save it! Anyway, a couple of things:

First, I was wondering if you are basing the large Catholic population on your own community. The official word from Wikipedia has Catholics at around 20% -- and that would include the larger populations in cities where Catholics tend to gather. I think rural populations, and small cities, would tend to have fewer Catholics (but I may be wrong). That same article indicates that Protestants of all types outnumber Catholics about two to one, though the Catholics are the largest single religious group.

Second, is the Lafayette Baptist Church supposed to be the official name for the collective Baptists churches of the Republic, or is it supposed to be the First Babptist Church of Fayetteville (OTL - about 400 members)?

I suggest going to the Wikipedia article on Indiana. Keeping these pages close to reality takes research. I thought the paragraph on the number of national headquarters for religious groups was very interesting. Many had chosen smaller towns and thus were spared in TTL.SouthWriter 04:18, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well around the area in Northern Indiana is a very large population of Catholics, Prude, Notro dame and alot of Catholic schools populate the area. Around Evansville is a very large amount of Babtists, and around Southern Indiana. And around Laffayette, maybe in the more African American community would the Babtist church rise in numbers. The Mormons have also been trying to get into Indiana for awhile but havent been getting very good with results. Also The Laffayette Babtist Church was founded by the local Babtist churches in the area. But if you feel as if somthing dosent look right, please change it to your liking.Perryz101 05:01, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I checked in Wikipedia articles for Purdue (not a religious school) in West Lafayette. It would have survived. Notre Dame, though, would have been destroyed or greatly damaged, with the destruction of nearby South Bend. Evansville is in the far south and not part of your Republic. I don't think the Baptists would start up a new denomination, but would remain part of the existing State Convention of Baptists. If the state headquarters of that organization had been destroyed, they would have formed another group much like it. I don't think it would be called "Lafayette Baptist Church" for that would be too regionalized. Perhaps renaming it something like the "Indiana Baptist Convention" would work well.

As far as the Mormons are concerned, the story of this time line has all Mormons that can travel heading to Utah - which is now enlarged and officially a Mormon "nation." If you want conflict, you might look into a Muslim presense. The Islamic Society of North America is in Plainfield. In OTL, there are over 250,000 Muslims in Indiana. That figure would be lower, of course, in TTL due to the bombing of the main population centers to which most alternative religions would gather.

I don't want to just change your article. You need to do your research and make this proposal up to standards which will get it past the rest of the editors. Otherwise, it will remain just a proposal for the forseeable future. SouthWriter 05:25, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perry, I must say, you're getting pretty creative. It would be interesting to know where you come up with your ideas. However, if there is such religious intolerance among a minority of Christians as to lead to genocide, I don't think Indiana is going to grow into a respected nation able to join even the Dixie Alliance. That sort of unrest is not condusive to international relations at all. SouthWriter 20:54, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

These arnt real Christians. These groups are all over America, the KKK is still large in Indiana to this day, if this world could have religions that dident fight at all, this world would be great. This was about 10 years ago around the southern portion of The Republic Of Indiana. The Baptists have be getting better at getting along with the other religions. And I don't understand this "I would like to know were you get your ideas." thing, these problems are being taken care by Indiana. Indiana does not support any of the extreamists.Perryz101 22:21, April 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did not say "I would like to know" but instead "it would be interesting to know." But the point is that these accounts seem to be putting your present opinions into this alternate world. It would be interesting to know why you think that radical groups would rise up in such large numbers to descend upon those of different religious and ethnic groups. Are your own private ideas of the strife you see around you being projected onto the screen of the story in front of us? To me, such campaigns of violence based on prejudice and hate just could not happen on the scale that you think it could. I may be wrong, and there other editors that love this kind of stuff. SouthWriter 23:01, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

The world has alot of hate, and after somthing so bad, people will begin to fight. I don't want this in Indiana but..this is really how it is with the KKK.Perryz101 23:11, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

I've also lowerd the deaths.Perryz101 23:33, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Canon
I would really like to get this Canon. I think it looks good and that its finished.Perryz101 02:14, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry I have not been able to work on the page much. Though you have worked hard, I'm afraid I cannot recommend this article to canonization just yet.  Most of your sections are very sketchy, and the timeline is uncertain as to just what happened when.  Things seem to have got together way too fast after the state had been split in half by nukes down the middle, along the top and along the bottom.


 * You were very innovative, though, in adding videos and a gallery. We don't see many of those in the articles.  However, for my taste I would have rather seen more attempt to actually extrapolate from the "what if" of huge loss into a future almost 30 years into the present.  You have demonstated a rudimentary knowledge of some trends, only to exaggerate them into major problems (the past influence of the KKK, for example).


 * I would suggest reading as many of the articles of 1983: Doomsday as you can to see how this time line works. Some are disasters, some are stories of hope, but all of them take time and come out far different than what they are today in our time line.  SouthWriter 04:30, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Adoption
I'm from Indiana, could I maybe try and work on this?, I don't see much wrong with it OR Wasbash Union.--Sunkist- 12:23, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

I like it perry--Owen1983 10:09, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, really?--Sunkist- 12:18, August 19, 2010 (UTC)