Talk:1983: Doomsday

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Countries/Regions/Politics
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2010 Toledo Confederation Presidential Election
So as mentioned on both the Toledo Confederation article and in the news, the Toledo Confederation is having an election. For about twenty years, the Democratic Party has had complete control over the government. Over the past few years however, their grasp has been slipping, especially after two schisms, resulting in the Labor Party and Liberal Party. Combined with the growth of the New Republicans (who are being backed by the Conservative Union, a libertarian organization, to displace the Democrats) this is a very real opportunity to end the Democratic oiligarchy. If the Democrats win, it will resecure their control and give them quite some time to regroup and attack their opponents.

The result of the election will also change how the nation is played for the forseeable future. I posted a poll on the Toledo Confederation discussion article, but it did not gather much attention. So, anyways, here is a poll. Please vote. You decide the fate of the Toledo Confederation. Minor parties have not been included in the poll for obvious reasons.

Who should win the 2010 Toledan Presidential Election? New Republican Party: Represenative Micheal R. Turner Democratic Party: President Micheal Bell Liberal Party: Senator Kristina Keneally

Please post any questions or comments here. Some discussion is already on the Toledo Confederation talk page. JackofSpades 02:00, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay, I was out of town for about two days. Looks like the Republicans are going to win this round. I'll try to get a news update up soon. JackofSpades 18:50, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Thunder Bay referendum
Thunjnder Bay was supposed to hold a referendujm on joining Canda, Superior or staying independent a few mountsh a go. what would be the result of this?--HAD 18:38, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously this has been forgotten, just like the war in Saguenay and the war in Europe, just one of many problems I guess. And I think no one can speculate on the outcome other than the author, although I think that the referendum would be directly connected to the outcome of the war--Vladivostok 19:48, June 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.
 * Let's take a poll so we can get it updated.

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Become a protectorate of Canada Merge with Superior Stay Independent

Note:My browser had a spasm and marked "Stay Independent" when I meant to mark "Merge With Canada". Arstarpool 19:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as none of the options reached a 50% threshold shall we move the top two vote getters to a runoff? --GOPZACK 01:45, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --Lordganon 10:12, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

What should happen to Thunder Bay? Merge with Canada Stay Independent

Resetting the runoff poll because the "merge with Superior" option officially lost. It had seven votes, the other two had eleven. Yankovic270 15:12, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

How the hell is Thunder Bay supposed to "Merge With Canada"? Most of Ontario is still outside of Canadian control. For God's sake the Canadians have yet to reclaim southern Quebec, let alone Ontario. I think that Thunder Bay should stay independant until at least 2020, when the Canadian province of Ontario is officially restored.

Yankovic270 22:58, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

So it's a problem with Canada when they are to "merge" with Thunder Bay, but not a problem when the Virginians control eastern Virginia which was ripped to shreds by nukes. I sense hypocracy...Arstarpool 02:48, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Thunder Bay merging with Canada....'''eventually. '''Let's be rational here. It would be much more convienient for both parties if they held off the merging until Canada reclaims the territory between itself and Thunder Bay. Which, at this rate of expansion, is around '''2020. '''And et tu Arstarpool? I defend the Commonwealth of California/Californian Republic and this is the thanks you give me? I try to be rational and you snap at me. All I'm saying is wait until its plausible. Which at the earliest is still ten years from now.

Yankovic270 02:57, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

How about we bring back the more plausible possibility of them merging with Superior? Arstarpool 03:09, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I had that on the original runoff poll but Yank cleared it off, in defense of Yank it varies region to region as to who joins who & such. Thunder Bay is different then Virginia & such. GOPZACK 03:12, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

You guys need to remember that while dormant, a debate is still going on as to the actual condition of Ontario after Doomsday, and how it was originally made much, much worse sounding than it actually would have been.

Also, Canada does control the Ontario coast of Hudson's Bay - and Thunder Bay is not all THAT far from there.

While it is more plausible for them to join with Superior, it would still make some sense for them to join Canada.

On another note, whoever came up with that date for Ontario in the first place was likely wrong in some regard - sure, southern would be out, but Northern Ontario, except for North Bay, would be fine to establish a minimal territory/province, on the same level as Quebec.

Lordganon 12:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

While they are "not all THAT far" there are no roads to create a viable connection between the two. GOPZACK 04:26, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. I think we should delay the vote until Canada actually controls the area in between itself and Thunder Bay. Until then, more practical voices will prevail over the blindly patriotic. Thunder Bay should remain independant, at least for now. I'm basically the practical person of the discussion, who noone listens to because the truth hurts. Thunder Bay can't and shouldn't rejoin Canada now. How many times to I have to say that it isn't practical at the moment?

Yankovic270 03:36, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be a tie, chaps.HAD 08:11, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

It is? I'm seeing 13-12 in favor of Canada (and I just voted in favor of Canada - however, the vote tally didn't change to reflect that). BrianD 15:23, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Never mind...the tally just changed. When are we cutting off the voting? BrianD 15:24, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no idea, but the vote is too close for this to be called a consensus. Also we must debate which is plausible. Yank makes a very valid point that there are no roads of use that would connect Canada's holdings along Hudson's bay with Thunder Bay. GOPZACK 06:11, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well, way I figure it there's gotta be a way we can combine the two - without it being something that happens in 2020.

Something along the lines of what the deal was with B.C. and the railroad when it joined Confederation?

Lordganon 07:08, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Any thoughts about what I said? Sheesh.

Lordganon 13:00, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

We've been busy. We'll get to it soon. --GOPZACK 23:26, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

East British expansion into Lincolnshire
I have written it down on the page. But I wanted confirmation as to whether this would be a sensible course of action. As East Britain is mostly based in Lincolnshire with some areas of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk, as well as Hull, it only seems natural for East Britain to take control of Lincolnshire. Bob 10:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

It could be done, but you'd need to make sure you do a good job with the locals. East Britain has only a population of 40,000, and would be incredibly thinly spread across Lincolnshire - unless you make sure the locals agree to become citizens of East Britain, you will have major issues in maximising the effectiveness of the land you've colonised. Fegaxeyl 08:44, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I've updated it and East Britain has a population of 230000. Bob 11:07, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

That figure seems a little high to me; is it the population before or after expansion? Fegaxeyl 12:09, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Before expansion. I altered the numbers to include populations from South Holland in Lincolnshire, Hull and the occupied Cambridgeshire areas, all reduced by a considerable margin to produce this number. Bob 18:30, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

A More Conservative America?
I've had this thought percolating in my mind for a while now but the recent discussion surrounding the Toledo election got me thinking about it again. With most urban more Liberal areas in America destroyed on Doomsday, leaving the rural, more conservative areas and mid sized cites (those swing districts you never hear the end of if you watch American TV in OTL) to fend for themselves. Most Democratic American survivor nations are run by Republicans/Conservative politicians. As I've done some research for some articles I've found that most are heavily Republican leaning or are home to those Conservative Democrats. Anyway I was wonder what you guys thought of this. --GOPZACK 02:30, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, that's pretty much it. With the urban areas gone, the rural conservatives would dominate most North American nations. Also, liberal ideas mostly center around stronger government and more expansive social policies. Post-Doomsday, almost all governments would become heavily centralized and powerful, but social programs would be disregarded, if they existed at all. The only exceptions to this would be areas like Toledo, the West Coast nations, and the northeast nations where more of the non-urban population was liberal/Democratic. Caeruleus 03:14, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think both of you pretty much nailed it. You also may want to consider the absence of American pop culture, which (IMO) is strongly influenced by those with a more liberal, non-religious mindset. Pop music, movies, TV, not to mention the internet....all butterflied away by Doomsday. Caeruleus I believe is accurate regarding the areas of North America TTL that would be more liberal, and I'd add Midland from Texas to that list....Midland is a place where conservatives and Baptists mix with liberals (who produce much of the art that comes out of that city). I would guess Yankovic's Republic of Lincoln would be liberal as well. Blue Ridge has a dynamic where the capital (Asheville) is more liberal, in keeping with its OTL equivalent, and the rest of the nation is more conservative. BrianD 04:17, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * A look at the county map for the US 1984 election may reflect this better than anything else. Of course, 800px-1984prescountymap2.png was the year that a very popular conservative (Reagan) won re-election, but it is the America as it was constituted (in OTL) soon after Doomsday. The blue counties are either in the urban areas or in areas where "minorities" are in the majority. It looks like Yank's Assiniboia was a hotbed of liberalism, as was the area of eastern Kentucky and West Virgina that becam his Virginian Republic. The Nebraska he transforms into a liberal utopia, though, seems to have voted for Reagan.
 * Interestingly, much of what Zack has as the failed "non-racist" CSA is populated by liberal voting blocks in the major cities! South Texas, with its heavy Hispanic population, votes Democratic though I doubt if they are "liberal" in the traditional sense (no irony intended). The "black belt" (original for the soil, but also came to apply to the African-Americans) in the south (AL-GA) includes Selma as well as my proposed (only on Georgia page) "New South." Toledo, indeed is liberal, Nuke-overlay-1984.png is Natchez, MS (!). I took the liberty of overlaying the US Nuclear strike map (as I had originally stored it on my computer) That map is to the right -- open it in a new tab to see the strikes (black dots). A look at the county maps for the 2000 (OTL) election gives a truer picture of the American dichotomy between urban and rural voting patterns. The population centers are shown to be the the most liberal -- and that election was a 50-50 in popular vote. SouthWriter 14:59, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use the 1984 elections as a measure for the location of liberals and conservatives in the country. 1984 was a realignment year where almost everyone voted Republican (remember, Reagan Democrats?), so many moderates and liberals who would have normally voted Democrat voted Republican. Otherwise, you are correct. Caeruleus 16:50, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Graphics / Visualization /Cartography
Section Archives: Page 1 Be sure to update the map for every 10 new nations or major territorial changes

New Chumash Flag
Im thinking of changing the flag for the Chumash Republic here is what I came up with

New ideas Option 1 Option 2 Option 3

In addition I will also let people submit there designs Riley.Konner 01:38 August 28 2010 (UTC)

Here's my submission. Basically just the same flag only cleaner.Oerwinde 06:31, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Is it just me, or do any other users think the browns and tans of the flag make it look dull and unnapealing? What do the Chumash have against vibrant colour? Don't get me wron, the tribal logo is grest, it's just that the flag looks altogether boring.

Yankovic270 23:34, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well for some reason the images on the poll aren't appearing, but Yank option one is very colorful. Also Oerwinde you must add your option under "option 3 on the poll and give a description. Riley.Konner 07:29 August 29 2010 (UTC)

Maybe post the other ones on here separately so we can see them? Just call them Option 1/2.

Lordganon 05:37, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Quad Cities Flag
So I have been working on the article and I realized it does not have a flag. So I am opening up a contest for some of our more graphically inclined editors to design a flag for the article. Best one will be selected for the article, most likely by vote. Mitro 04:18, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Option 1, red white and blue for america, the red representing the two states the cities come from, the blue represents the mississippi, the stars the four cities. Option 2 the same thing but the stars are oriented to represent the states the cities hail from.Oerwinde 06:44, August 30, 2010 (UTC)



Looking at the Illinois and Iowa flags, I saw both had eagles on them. Ran from there.

Lordganon 10:46, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually the Quad Cities area is a geographic area that is used to describe five cities. So there would probably be 5 stars on the flag not 4.  Mitro 13:59, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Wiki/Timeline/Article Technicals
Section archives: Page 1

Culture / Society
Archives: Page 1 • Page 2;

Food
Given that it's undoubtably a major issue in post-DD world, it might be interesting to look at it in more detail. Which countries are still suffering the most from shortages, which ones are doing okay, rationing and the extent thereof, national staples, changes in diet since before DD, which foods have almost vanished from many countries (eg, chocolate, coffee, tea, cane sugar, ect). Food production has probably changed in a few places as well, due to a combination of isolation, limited farmland, and climate change. What do you think?Tessitore 23:59, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

the Celtic allience and ANZ are doing okOwen1983 14:58, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have a brief section in the Toledo Confederation article on how food had been effected by Doomsday. A large portion of the population starved to death between 1984 and 1989 despite a quick response by local governments. Most farmland and livestock were destroyed by fallout resulting in government takeover. In the modern day, the federal government and most states have set up emergency stockpiles in case of another food shortage. I was considering adding something about the average Toledan's diet but was unsure where it would go or what it would be. JackofSpades 15:08, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've started a page on this as a Proposal (see below). Input would be appreciated.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've started a page on this as a Proposal (see below). Input would be appreciated.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion
Archives: Page 1 | Page 2

Atlantic/Carribean American Authority for US Territories
I would like to make a page for the US's Atlantic and Carribean territories and a government they could form. This proposed "" would govern Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Navassa Island, Gitmo, Serranilla Bank, and any other territories for a certain period of time until little by little the organization was diminished to only a small area of control where they would remain to the present day. Please if anybody would like to work on this with me list your name below. Arstarpool 00:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your proposal conflicts with the Puerto Rico article somewhat. It pretty much states that the Commonwealth government was running itself up to 1984 when they established their independence. Also it has already been established on the South Florida article and talk page that the Cubans would control Gitmo. Mitro 04:24, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is some wiggle room here seeing as the Caribbean Federation is fairly vague. Also I think it should be a member of the East Caribbean Federation seeing at it has adopted its currency. Also I'd like to see what territories the controls now or has controlled in the past. --GOPZACK 18:05, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Zack, there were indeed quite a few territories in the western Atlantic and/or Eastern Caribbean. Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, working with the Consulate office in the Bahamas perhaps, could easily have established control over the islands in question almost immediately. Reagan's office could have had some contact with as many consulates as possible (though from reading this time line that is not so clear). These territories should have been very active in the days immediately following DD - receiving east coast refugees, sending relief ships (cruise ships that had off-loaded their passengers before returning to ports on the continental US, etc.
 * I will volunteer to help Arstar on this. If the article on Puerto Rico has to be changed, we will have to tread carefully because of QSS, but it is always possible that the original editor(s) did not take all pertinent things into account. --SouthWriter 20:02, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * So here is a loose history of the USAR, then:
 * It takes its roots in the Gitmo situation. Regardless of what happens with Gitmo, the US Navy will send some troops out to the Carribean to check on the islands.
 * Navassa Island is as always, quietly empty.
 * The US Virgin Islands are, well, in confusion and in water and food shortages, but have reached a level of stability.
 * Puerto Rico is in chaos because they actually were hit on Doomsday, but not in disarray.
 * By the 1980's, Puerto Rico will probably leave the remnant, or possibly even fracture into an American side and a Hispanic side.
 * Eventually the organization will join the ECF under, well, unique conditions regarding their soverignity (representation, political autonomy, etc.)
 * Ultimatley the Remnant will serve as a service to keep America alive (in a way) in the Atlantic/Carribean and to help refugees and stragglers that didn't make it to the Gathering Order (which would be almost all of the Navywith the Panama Canal closed they wouldn't want to trek aroung South America to get to Australia.)
 * If you are gonna work on it please do, as I can rarely log on these days and I need someone to help me work on my articles.
 * If you are gonna work on it please do, as I can rarely log on these days and I need someone to help me work on my articles.


 * Oh, and at the moment it controls Navassa Island, which would probably be repopulated by now at Lulu Town, Gitmo, assuming the Americans defeat the relatively weak Cuban army and others who made it through the Cactus Curtain and the Mine Curtain, and the USVI, assuming the ECF is modified to include the USAR under special conditions. Arstarpool 21:37, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT ARTICLE PROPOSALS= Please list any and all current article proposals and their discussion here. If the proposals only involves a specific section of the article, please state that. Also remember to use  when reviewing new articles. To graduate an article, move to have the article graduated and if no one objects the article will be considered canon (see the for more information on this process).

The Sultanate of Turkey is the successor state of the now defunct Republic of Turkey. I've started to write the article. Commentary and ideas are welcome. Most of the pre-Doomsday history is straight off Wikipedia. And I hope this doesn't conflict with any already accepted nations in this althist. I've accounted for the existence of Kurdistan, the Greek control of Rhodes and the (formerly) Turkish Straits, and the possiblity of an enlarged Armenia in eastern Turkey, though I'm not sure there's an accepted article about Armenia.

Caeruleus 22:17, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

In fact, its pretty awesome. Any objections? Arstarpool 17:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Heh. That Caucasian war bit is impossible, realistically, and the state is still too large.

Lordganon 03:03 June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe if it included only southern Turkey, and shared little/no borders with Greece, then it would be acceptable. The Causcausian War crap should be taken out. Sorry, but I didn't read through the whole article, heh. Arstarpool 16:31, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

You have to erase the Georgian and Armenian things. There is a state on Georgia since much before you wrote this article. Fedelede 16:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Bye bye Turkish Empire I guess. Caucasian War portion removed. Caeruleus 18:29, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Still way too big as well as expanding too fast, and he's right about the strikes - dont know why I didn't notice before. You have to remember, the list is only a guideline, not anything definite. Some research is involved in this project, remember.

You need to take the criticism and work with it, not ignore it.

Lordganon 10:50, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Christ! He just gave himself nukes. Not getting graduated with that there, buddy.

Still needs to be smaller and expand less, especially with the new nuclear strikes. No way is that happening now. Add Edirne, in European Turkey, as well, please.

Lordganon 10:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know per our earlier discussion, I have posted my thoughts as you asked on your discussion page for Turkey. Please let me know if you wish to talk further in the future.--Fxgentleman 03:30, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Any other objections to its graduation? I believe I have fixed most of the previous issues. Caeruleus 15:42, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Um..... no, you haven't. It's still illogical for it to be that size. If I'd been the only one to say so, I'd let it slide, but I'm not the only one. Thus, I do object.

Lordganon 05:176, August 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * But it's not illogical for it to be that size. It makes sense and is explained in the article... Caeruleus 23:15, August 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * LG, you're the only one left who has signaled any opposition. So, last call, can it be graduated now? Caeruleus 20:19, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just think it seems too optimistic. Every rival just seems to fall over and submit.Oerwinde 11:44, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * And...? There are lots of optimistic articles in this TL. There is also always one state that always wins their battles to unite their nation (i.e. Genghis Khan and the Mongols, Red Army in China and Russia, etc.). Caeruleus 19:51, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well, you're always complaining that Greece is ASB, so then why are you sinking to its level? Just because more than a couple of nations here are optimistic doesn't mean you have to make yours bigger than it should be out of spite or because you want your nation to bloody recreate the Ottoman Empire; ever heard of the "Would you jump off a bridge if..." saying? Mr.Xeight 21:59, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unlike Greece, I'm not creating an international empire and an entirely unrealistic Mediterranean superpower in a country that would probably revert to a Peloponnesian War-like state. Also, to clarify, my main problem with Greece was not that it was unrealistic (lots of things in althists are), but that there was no detail on to how everything happen so it seemed as if it became a superpower from nothing. Now the article is much more detailed and I thank you, and the others who assisted you, for that.
 * The only reason this article is may seem optimistic, in my opinion, is because I didn't dwell very much on the famine, disease, death, and general destruction post-Doomsday. I also assume that Turkish nationalism remains relatively strong post-Doomsday, which is not unreasonable to assume. Between nationalism and pre-Doomsday preparations, I crafted Turkey to be reunited in a relatively short amount of time, which happened previously during post-WWI Turkey and during the initial Ottoman unification of the Turkish peoples of Anatolia in similar timeframes. Plus, Turkey isn't a particularly large nation, so unification can occur in a much shorter time period than it can in other nations. Caeruleus 22:09, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Are you still on about that? The only reason they got anything in North Africa at all was because the ADC either gave it to them to hold onto, or they nipped off pieces from lawless Libya. I didn't even want Greece's influence to extend past Tripoli; it was Mr. Hicken and Venezuela that has Greece puppetifying the Barbary. And you have no room to talk about implausibility either; you bloody have all those eastern-Anatolian states practically fawning over some neo-Sultanate to become annexed by being defeated in a mere months. Greece wouldn't revert back to Ancient Times; literally no one in Greece sees themselves as "Peloponnesian" or "Athenian" like philhellenes would have you think. The only reason their are facturated states now is because the ruling parties of each won't relinquish power-a very human theme. Greece is gradually unifying anyway-by 2012 it'll become one state due to the neo-conservancy, Byzantine-recreationism, all part of the "return to the Glory Years" mentality of post-Doomsday Greeks, mostly barely out of college and learned about East Rome in their studies and how in the early-mid Byzantine Empire things were good and they'll want their politicians to represent them on that and when they get older some will become politicians ride the band-wagon and use unity to make themselves look good. Mr.Xeight 22:23, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're the one who brought it up, so don't complain when I mention it. And your explanation for why that happened still doesn't explain how that's even possible, but whatever. Now that I've discovered where you actually mention all those tiny details, I don't particularly care to oppose the plausibility of the FoG anymore. Also, please learn to recognize historical analogies. The Peloponnesian War was an ancient war between Greek city-states. I was refering to my belief that post-Doomsday Greece would enter into a similar state of civil war between many small Greek states. But, once again, Greece is canon, so I can't change it. My current focus is this article. This isn't the place to argue the feasibility of Greece anyway.
 * And if you actually bothered to read the entire article, you would know it takes seven years for the Sultanate to conquer eastern Turkey, which involved direct warfare, proxy warfare, and difficult gunboat diplomacy. Not "mere months" as you put it. Caeruleus 22:30, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

I believe Mr.Xeight has been satisfied. Any other objections? Caeruleus 19:00, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Some of the diplomatic contact dates need to be changed to those established in Rhodope, or afterwards.

Lordganon 08:14, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Easy enough. Anything else? Caeruleus 15:36, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

The size...I'm sorry but it is way too big, if not almost bigger than pre-Doomsday Turkey. Arstarpool 22:19, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not bigger than pre-Doomsday Turkey. And why is it too big? Caeruleus 22:35, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Well when you first made the article, people were already arguing on the size, and then you made it bigger, so maybe you should return it to the original size and map. If you want, I will help you get it wrapped up for graduation even if it means toning it down a little. Arstarpool 22:40, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * You need to reread the article. It's much smaller than when I first started it, back when it was outrageously large. I never increased the size. It's borders are all firmly within the boundaries of pre-Doomsday Turkey, except for a few minor Syrian border provinces. And if it is the map that is confusing you on its size, it's because the map emphasizes the size of Turkey in comparison to the other countries around it. But that's just a feature of the map I used. Caeruleus 22:54, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

See? I'm not the only one that feels that way.

The dates are a bit better now, but you have the Greeks telling you of Rhodope before they even found the nation.

And I've noticed that you have the Greeks in Thrace being found and encountered for the first time in both 1995 and 1990.

The Macedonian dates should likely be held back a bit too, depending on the Greek date, but it shouldn't make too much difference.

Lordganon 00:52, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well you weren't when I initially mentioned it a week ago.
 * Where does it mention Thrace being encountered in 1990? I'll move that back, then I'll edit the Macedonia and Rhodope dates accordingly. Caeruleus 01:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

In the international relations part. And the eastern med. map is also wrong, fyi.

Lordganon 01:43, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed the dates. What's wrong with the map? Caeruleus 03:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you just made it bigger. I mostly take issue that Turkey seems to be the only country nuked to hell that is unified. While it doesn't break any rules, it goes against the spirit of the TL. The territory in the north that was until recently believed to be Greek I don't think should have been added, maybe create another Republic there, as Turkey having rejected a monarch being entirely unified by one seems suspect to me. There should be more republics in Turkey. And not just Republics in Name Only like Hatay that are prime targets for Sultanate imperialist expansionism. Oerwinde 05:28, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

That sums up my feelings nicely.

It's the borders in the Balkans, Caer. Make them like the Macedonia map~

Lordganon 05:58, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I made it slightly bigger to adjust it to accommodate the actual borders of Greece. I assumed that they had more territory than they actually have and are claiming.
 * Well, I'm sorry if it violates the "spirit" of the timeline, but like you said, it breaks no rules. Unless you have a problem with the actual substance of the article, I see no reason why it can't graduate.
 * I'll fix the map LG. Caeruleus 01:12, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Btw, there are a handful of real democratic republics in eastern Turkey. I just haven't gotten around to writing articles on them yet, or found a volunteer willing to do so for me. Caeruleus 01:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rules? Listen we have marked articles as obsolete for being overly optimistic, like Rhodesia (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 01:18, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well it isn't too optimistic, or at least no one has proven it to be so thus far. Caeruleus 01:36, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be a lot of people who feel it is to large or else they wouldn't still be objecting. Have you thought about reqriting the history a bit to allow some of those Turkey survivor states you also created remain independent to cut back on the size?  Mitro 14:05, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of Macedonia
Its a small nation in the southern Balkan peninsula, its a constitutional monarchy, based off mostly of the real Macedonia and headed by a real Yugoslav prince, living in Seville in 1983 which wasn't nuked (I checked). Ownerzmcown 02:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

You still dont get it - The list of targets is NOT COMPLETE. Seville is a major port and industrial center and as a result would have been clobbered. Also, you do not state how on earth he could have gotten all the way from there to Yugoslavia in the first place, or gotten all those men. And that's besides the fact that Yugoslavia was not hit at all and survived as a state until 1985.

The state is too large besides, and interferes with too much. Make it the size of modern Macedonia at MOST.

Lordganon 3:41, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Look, I know you're pissed about me saying Macedonia contacted Greece without talking to you, but I apoligized on the talk page. Plus, you operate a lot of countries who are large than Macedonia, and were established later than it. Ownerzmcown 3:47, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ganon, please STAY OUT OF THIS. You are out of place here. Coming from someone who just started, his article is pretty good. Yugoslavia was NOT HIT WHATSOEVER. While I agree the borders should be like modern Macedonia, you cannot diss him and saying that Seville was hit is totally false. Yugoslavia was NON ALIGNED. It would not be destroyed. Arstarpool 05:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Seville is in SPAIN, Not Yugoslavia.

Lordganon 10:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Tehnically, the Croatia article I'm writing has Belgrade nuked and since Yank is doing Serbia and I think he agrees as well it would be nuked. If Vienna was nuked, why not Belgrade? The USSR already had plans to attack both countries in case of a war.--Vladivostok 12:27, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, if you look on a map of Europe, the Greater Macedonia area is relativley small comapred to other nations. Ownerzmcown 12:50, June 28. 2010 (UTC)

I know where Seville is. And I don't know why a completely neutral, communist country would be hit by the USSR. Arstarpool 13:03, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then you'll have to ask yourself why Vienna was nuked. It was also as neutral as it gets.--Vladivostok 14:12, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, Vienna was nuked because the Soviets assumed NATO would violate the neutrality of Austria and move in for invasion through there. They took it out to neutralize a threat. If a neutral communist country is nuked it will be the allies that nuke it.Oerwinde 16:20, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I never really specifically stated who nuked Belgrade, just that it was obliterated. Now, in a conventional war, the Soviets, or NATO, which ever came first, would try to invade Yugoslavia. Now, that wouldn't happen during Doomsday. I just suspected that perhaps one of the superpowers, if not both, would try to take Yugoslavia out of the equation in Europe during the nuclear exchange.--Vladivostok 16:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

If I recall correctly we had a discussion on whether Yugoslavia was nuked about a year ago; therefore the caretaker of Macedonia and whoever else wants to prove his own opinion is true will have to dig through the Archives to the find it. Though I have to warn the caretaker of Macedonia; generally speaking when a nation is up for debate on whether it was nuked or not, I can't think of a time (remember I'm older and went inactive for months, I can't talk about the recent past) when any nation in question was spared; the council of contributors usually ruled in favor of any sort of bombings, probably based on the idea that NATO or the Warsaw Pact would bomb them "just to be on the safe side". Mr.Xeight 19:17, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

My point is that the list of targets is unconfirmed, and needs to be updated. Spain is no exception, and I find it hard to believe that Seville would not be hit. Even it it wasn't, it is not explained how on earth he'd get there in the first place. If he were to somehow survive the hit, it is extremely unlogical for him to have not only made it to the bunker, but also survive with so many followers and gotten there in the first place.

And, as I noticed on the talk page for the article, it is illogical that a bunch of Greeks and former communist subjects would except him as king anyway. The chetniks from the war and the anti-royal propaganda afterwards would argue against it, anyway.

Lordganon 03:37, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think that I've got most questions answered in the article and that the major points of the article are finished, so I believe my article should be read over now and considered for the canon. Ownerzmcown 02:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This "bunker" seems a little fanciful. Did Alexander actually have one in Spain? Can you provide a source to prove it? Mitro 02:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I can in fact, not provide a source as of yet, but good reasoning, Alexander was and is a very important person in society, he is the Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, which although isn't a country anymore, he still is a high-ranking member of a historical society and would easily be given permission and money to build a bunker. Ownerzmcown 02:49, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * We can't just assume he would have a resources to build it even though he is a VIP. There were a lot of VIPs during the Cold War who had the resources to build nuclear bunkers and didn't. Assuming that this exiled royal did have a bunker without any source is too ASB. Mitro 02:55, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

You can't keep track of everything in history, Alexander lived in Spain, I believe as a guest of the King of Spain, and there is a distinct possibility he had hereditary connections to the Spanish Royal Family, the Spanish Royal Family was very important at the time, and probably had bunkers for multiple members, maybe even Alexander, I can't say exactly, besides the only way I'll really ever know is if I asked Alexander himself, besides, one, that will never happen, and two, it is in my opinion an interesting part of the story that makes sense in multiple ways. Ownerzmcown 21:31, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This TL is supposed to be as realistic as possible. Thus we try to keep it as plausible as possible. Article have been marked obsolete that assumed that a person or place would be overly-prepared for Doomsday when they were not. When Yank proposed a new Germany article he had the founder of Aldi apparently buy land in Saudi Arabia before Doomsday, even though there was no proof of this. An early version of the Republic of Indiana had Dan Quayle apparently knowing that Doomsday was going to happen and thus warn the Governor of Indiana to prepare for it. Again no proof that this happened, these were guesses and in my opinion bad guesses. With your assumption about Alexander you admit yourself that you have almost no way to prove that he had a fallout shelter/bunker. To just assume might be interesting, but it is not plausible. Mitro 02:56, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm ust saying, even today we know that everything in history was never written down, thats why we know what we do about Ancient Egypt and such, their are the parts of history we can prove, like Alexander was from Yugoslavia, and the parts we can't prove due to no documentation and have to assume, like Alexander, a crown prince, having a bunker. Ownerzmcown 07:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We make assumptions about ancient history for a reason, because it was really long ago. The year 1983 is not ancient history. Ben once found the names and location of the daughters of the governor of the governor of Bermuda. We don't just assume someone was somewhere or had something just because they were an important person. By 1983 the bunker craze was already long gone and if we assume one VIP had a bunker than we have to assume that every VIP has one, which does not make sense. If you can prove he had a bunker than great, but if you can't than its logical to assume that he did not have a bunker. Mitro 16:04, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Alexander was a member of the British Royal Family until 1972 when he married a Catholic dutchess from Brazil/Spain (not sure on that one) because he was a descendant of Victoria and Alfred, her second son, in the 1950's from fear of a Soviet nuclear threat, the British royal family built large underground cities and bunkers for each member of the royal family. If by 1972 he was living in Spain, he would still have an estate where he had access to a bunker because as a partial descendant of both the Spanish and British royal family, he would be given a bunker as both royal families thought important that all members have one. Ownerzmcown 13:45, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I've changed it so now it says he was having a bunker constructed prior to DD due to rising tensions between east and west and had it expanded upon days before DD and after it, too. Ownerzmcown 12:12, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still not convinced that Alexander would have a bunker. Where exactly do you draw the line on the British Royal Family? Most of the royals on the continent are related to them, would the British government shell out cash for all of their relatives, even those who are not even citizens of Britain? Mitro 21:21, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Look at an ancestry family tree for Alexander and he has ancestors who are British royals, and, although he wasn't a real king, he was a high-ranking member of society to many people, and was inevitably connected personally to members of the British Royal family, they would likely have given him a bunker, and if you read the article you'd see that I changed it to say he had one under construction due to recent tensions between the US and the USSR, and had it finished before DD. Ownerzmcown 22:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw that, but since it is information pertaining to pre-Doomsday it needs to be 100% factual, or else it becomes the POD of the TL if it predates the current POD. So again, do you have any source that states he had such a bunker? If not we are making assumptions. Mitro 22:21, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Look Mitro, many people don't know who Alexander is, I didn't know him until just a few months ago, I doubt with the resources I have that I could find out much about the bunkers of Europe's royal families, presidents have tons of bunkers that we probably don't know about, is that an asumption, yes, but is it true, its very likely, and its the same with Alexander, and people still do this with modern, history, we don't exactly know, so we must assume. Besides the timeline has hundreds of PODs, every country from this TL is made by a POD which makes mine insignifigant in my opinion. Ownerzmcown 00:26, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know history on every article remains the same until the ultimate POD of this TL. All other changes to history are based from that point. If that is not the case please point it out to me. As for your proposal, Alexander might not be that well known, but I have seen people find information on some pretty obscure topics on this wiki. If you have made a good faith attempt to find out whether Alexander prepared for some future nuclear conflict and did not find anything, then the most logicial assumption is that he did not have one. I'm not sure why its more logical to believe he did have one. Presidents have bunkers, but sitting presidents are different from exiled-heads of royal houses. Now we can continue this back and forth, but I would like to hear what the other editors have to say? Mitro 02:14, August 10, 2010 (UTC)'
 * Before I could write my article on the Piedmont region of South Carolina, I had to deal with a fictional uprising of African Americans that took Anglo Americans as slaves. While I was trying my best to use real people, a city-state in my "back yard" had been created that was rather implausible. I first created a character to take over Anderson, SC, but then was able to find a real person that who rose in importance AFTER 1983 but fit the need quite well (he was unaccounted for in 1983 and was from South Carolina originally). I say this to defend the survival of Prince Alexander. If he was in Seville, Spain, and it was not on a list of nuked cities, then QSS over-rules the more nebulous QAA. We should not assume an important European city was a primary target unless it has NATO or US troups stationed there. Spain was not a strategic threat to the USSR at the time, so Seville should be assumed safe. How Alexander got to Macedonia, and whether the Yugoslavs would accept him, are different questions. But I don't see any reason why he need have been in a bunker to have survived. SouthWriter 03:33, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Before I could write my article on the Piedmont region of South Carolina, I had to deal with a fictional uprising of African Americans that took Anglo Americans as slaves. While I was trying my best to use real people, a city-state in my "back yard" had been created that was rather implausible. I first created a character to take over Anderson, SC, but then was able to find a real person that who rose in importance AFTER 1983 but fit the need quite well (he was unaccounted for in 1983 and was from South Carolina originally). I say this to defend the survival of Prince Alexander. If he was in Seville, Spain, and it was not on a list of nuked cities, then QSS over-rules the more nebulous QAA. We should not assume an important European city was a primary target unless it has NATO or US troups stationed there. Spain was not a strategic threat to the USSR at the time, so Seville should be assumed safe. How Alexander got to Macedonia, and whether the Yugoslavs would accept him, are different questions. But I don't see any reason why he need have been in a bunker to have survived. SouthWriter 03:33, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

The Jordan article has the King return from Thailand to resume leadership of his country. If the Jordanian King can return from a country in another region, then it is plausible that Alexander could have returned from Spain.

Yankovic270 06:20, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm very sure I've got all points covered and that my article is ready to be graduated. Ownerzmcown 18:15, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we please drop the part about the bunker. If we assume South is right that he would have likely survived without it, why is it so necessary that he have it? The fact that it is in the article and there is no proof he owned such a building is very implausible. Mitro 18:40, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Me and Sunkist's proposal for a military alliance in Italy. Arstarpool 05:49, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * No mention of the Alpine Confederation? Kind of odd to me, since it has been stated time and time again that it is the principle contributor to North Italian stability in the face of the Sicilians.--Vladivostok 07:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is more of an Italian alliance to combat Sicily within the peninsula. That would be like having Pais del Oro in the Organization of British Nations. Arstarpool 07:08, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I wasn't thinking of them joining, of course not. But perhaps some funding would be in order. I mean the AC is de jure neutral but de facto it actively supports the ADC and northern Italy. Thus, I was thinking something along the lines of them being an observer. Maybe the ADC as a whole could be the same.--Vladivostok 07:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I'll write it in. Arstarpool 15:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any objections? Arstarpool 01:31, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was re-reading the sicily article and it had some stuff that contradicts the existence of Tuscany as a state. I posted it in the Tuscany talk page.Oerwinde 09:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

With Tuscany re-written to fit with canon, are there still any objections? Arstarpool 04:48, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * None here. --GOPZACK 05:19, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * For some reason..San Marino is a proposal...--Sunkist- 05:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion on whether San Marino was in Sicily, but I think its safe since canon makes no mention of San Marino at all. Besides, as caretaker of Sicily I would never add something in that would cancel out San Marino's existince.

Any other objections? Arstarpool 06:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

There's a simple solution to eliminate any troubles - change the Adriatic city that is on the Sicilian border in the Sicily article to one further south on the coast. Ancona or Fano would work nicely.

Lordganon 06:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be better to just maintain San Marino in its OTL borders as an enclave within Sicily. Makes it hard to be a full time member of the IPA but still. Also, objection to the article: New Rome is deep within Sicilian territory, the IPA likely has no contact. We need to iron out the Genoese state mentioned in the Sicily article, that would likely be a member of the IPA as well.Oerwinde 09:27, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I believe the Federation of Greece, which it seems from the little I've perused of goings-on from Italy hasn't been talked about a lot (doesn't surprise me-it seems I scare a lot of people, unfortunately), would want to be part of this alliance and work with both the anti-fascistic Italians and Alpinians who are also giving their men and other resources to the cause. Mr.Xeight 17:21, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections? Arstarpool 23:00, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the Venice article, the country is both a de jure protectorate of the AC and is occupied by them, and yet Venice gets membership immediately in the IA and the Alpines don't? Unlikely, the AC should be a full member along with Venice. Also the whole part about the IA joining the ADC is unworable. An alliance joining another alliance? This should be just a small regional alliance that often works with ADC members, but not a full member in itself. Mitro 01:30, August 30, 2010
 * Okay, thats fine. If you can, add the stuff if you want. Arstarpool 01:36, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I made my suggested changes, anymore objections? Mitro 14:10, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I am going to revamp the article when I have access to a computer on a regular basis, so please refrain from editing until I do so. Arstarpool 05:11, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hows it looking? Better than before? Please do not leave a long comment because it is hard for me to view on the current device I am using but just tell me if you may. Arstarpool 22:27, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Better, I think, but Erie is still listed as the capital, which is a problem.

Lordganon 23:31, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

How about now? Any objections to graduation? If it is something regarding Erie please don't take it into account because when I have the time I will revamp the Erie part of the article. Arstarpool 23:38, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * We take everything into account when graduating. As for Erie, the part of rebuilidng it makes as much sense as Richmond being rebuilt by Virginia. WP is a small survivor state. They do not have the time or resources to commit to rebuilding a city destroyed by a nuclear bomb. Such energy could be spent doing a number of other more important projects. Mitro 18:32, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

With the destruction of Erie, why would WP still be reaching out to Norfolk County across Lake Erie. Also there are still a TON of references that need to be removed. --GOPZACK 18:38, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

You are acting strange, Zack. First you posted a map that supported my claim that eastern Erie would survive, and then you speak against it.

As for Norfolk County, I will have that still happen, but instead it will happen a couple years later. Arstarpool 23:24, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

I said that some of the outskirts are viable for resettlement in the future because they were not blown away to smithereens.As for Norfolk, if it happens a few years later London will have gotten there first. --GOPZACK 04:38, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Invasion of Norfolk
A trio of invasions following up the recent invasion of West Suffolk, written by me, Verence and Bob respectively. Fegaxeyl 09:17, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Southeastern Cambridgeshire is completed. Objections to graduation? Fegaxeyl 11:55, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Isle of Eels looks done. Graduated. Fegaxeyl 10:05, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Mitro reverted it to non-graduated. I got ahead of myself. Any objections to graduation? Fegaxeyl 16:21, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I graduated it. Mitro 16:10, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Invasion of Norfolk is also completed. Objections to graduation? Fegaxeyl 12:12, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

True British Army (1983: Doomsday)
links into Essex and Woodbridge.--Smoggy80 19:51, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Katanga (1983: Doomsday)
My proposal for a breakaway satate in the former Democratic Republic of the Congo (which I'm assuming fell to pieces following Doomsday).

Yankovic270 19:48, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Me and JackOfSpades' proposal for a international organization in the Great Lakes region. Arstarpool 01:34, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to passing as a stub? Arstarpool 00:13, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we get a list of members, that way people don't have to consult the map. Mitro 15:02, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also London, Pennsylvania and Toledo should become canon first before this is graduated. --GOPZACK 19:00, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this proposal might actually conflict with this article: League of the United American States (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 16:03, August 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it does. The League of the United American States (1983: Doomsday) was a proposed idea as I recall and hadn't even been foramlly voted on by Superior's Congress. --GOPZACK 16:26, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that is my point though. The LUAS is a canon article and pretty much seems similar to this current proposal. If the proposal is graduated, than why would this organization even be proposed if Superior was already a member of the UC in 2007? Mitro 21:28, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * yeah but, LUAS does not even exist yet its a bill purposed by Harold Duke some right-winger in the Congress of Superior. With that said, I really don't know Superior would be a member now that I think about it. In fact I don't know why the other members would want Superior in it. Superior would dominate all decisions made in the UC. --GOPZACK 03:17, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arstar became caretaker of Superior, but he may not have been aware of the LUAS (which if I recall correctly was Lahbas' proposal). BrianD 03:49, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are their any articles he's not a caretaker of? ;) I think your right Lahbas did write that article. --GOPZACK 03:55, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

How does one become a "caretaker" of an article he has not edited? Arstar was appointed to look out for vandalism and "trolls" (which I assume are obnoxious articles offensive and totally irrelevant). I am hard-pressed to keep my own articles updated, much less hop around fixing elements of other folks' articles.

Apart from that, the UC seems workable. It is not the grand scheme to bring the USA back under a new umbrella (an idea I like, by the way). The UC is a locally based organization, and probably would have been founded some time before anyone knew of the LoN. --SouthWriter 04:36, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * He asked Lahbas for permission to adopt Superior (and Wisconsin). BrianD 14:57, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did Lahbas grant him permission? GOPZACK 01:19, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Zack, yes on Wisconsin, no on Superior. The latter was my misunderstanding. I got Lahbas and Superior mixed up with Mjdoch and Celtic Alliance. Lahbas did give Arstar permission to be caretaker of Wisconsin (with a couple of conditions), and Arstar did in fact ask him for Superior. According to their talk pages Lahbas never responded back in regards to Superior. So as far as I can tell, Lahbas is still caretaker for Superior.

Ah, I don't see any radical edits by Arstar on the Superior article so we need not worry about that for now. I still think this alliance can't work with Superior in it. Pennsylvania (if graduated) will be weaker then Arstar's original article, Toledo is in decent shape, Niagara Falls is small and London doesn't have much of an army so Superior would basically run that show with an iron fist. GOPZACK 01:22, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Waitasecond. Oerwinde makes reference to Arstar being caretaker of Superior. http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Arstarpool#Superior.2FOntario.2FCanada.2FSaguenay_War BrianD 18:03, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the adoption rules somebody must ask somebody who hasn't edited in three months or more to adopt a page. If the editor does not respond in a week the article is theirs. Other than a few talk page related edits within the three months Lahbas did not edit, meaning that I am the current caretaker of Superior. However I will return it to Lahbas should he request for it to be returned. Arstarpool 03:37, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you plan to do with Superior? BrianD 20:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * While it is true that someone can adopt an unedited article the article cannot be changed based on QSS. However, it can be continued in a different direction from the last chronological reference (new item in "real time" in most cases). It will have to confirm with the histories of other related articles in order to stay viable as well. I suspect that Arstar has no real drastic changes in mind, though. SouthWriter 15:39, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * While it is true that someone can adopt an unedited article the article cannot be changed based on QSS. However, it can be continued in a different direction from the last chronological reference (new item in "real time" in most cases). It will have to confirm with the histories of other related articles in order to stay viable as well. I suspect that Arstar has no real drastic changes in mind, though. SouthWriter 15:39, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Rhodope-Vidin War
Call it the Bulgarian finale. Will be ongoing through the month.

Lordganon 02:20, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank and expanded by Ven. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Jnjaycpa. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Caeruleus. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Oer. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

List articles


I have a concern regarding the article dealing with National Historic Landmarks in Virginia. Several of those listed were located in Richmond, VA and likely destroyed along with the city on Doomsday. I mentioned it previously, but I noted they are still there. When this article is canonized, I believe this part should be accordingly adjusted. --Fxgentleman 04:46, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

So do I. I like Yank, but his insistence on Richmond having survived is almost as bad as Owen's perpetual attempts to retroactively save Manchester, England. BrianD 01:36, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I adjusted it so that Richmond was struck, but with a non-nuclear ICBM. I altered the page to make the landmarks in Richmond reconstructions of the originals.

Yankovic270 14:52, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Richmond is too important of a target to not be nuked. We have been over this almost as much as Manchester with Owen. Mitro 04:03, August 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * At least Owen's proposals are amusing. Can we by any chance add that Richmond VA & Manchester UK were hit by nukes to the QSS and QAA and the . --GOPZACK 04:08, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Caeruleus. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Former obsolete article revived by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Former stub expanded on by Yank. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by BSE. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by Bob. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I did my research, and this is actually Bob's grandfather who died in OTL, but somehow managed to survive irridation and starvation. Arstarpool 23:39, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Admit it, Arstarpool, the "research" was the talk page where Bob revealed to Mitro who William had been. As long as William was alive on Doomsday, his life could have gone any number of ways. This could include escaping whatever it was that killed him in OTL. If William died of heart disease, then the more austere life after DD may have improved his diet and excercise. If he died of cancer, life style changes might have prevented the cancer from developing as well. The fact that anyone escaped destruction means that it could be just that, ANY ONE


 * I say develope it, Bob. You've got the start of it on the East Britain page. SouthWriter 01:25, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Because this man is my grandfather, I know the intimacies of the causes of his death. He was a farmer and a successful one at that. He died because of a combination of a tumour which developed in his face because of long term chemical use and a small stroke. My idea was that due to Doomsday, he continued to farm, providing for his community. As East Britain expanded, it took control of farms and made them state controlled. At this point my Grandad stood up for farmer's rights and moved from the agricultural field to the political one, all the time calling out for farmers rights. He grew to be a prominent politician and helped form the Agricultural Party. Because of this move from the fields to the political battlefield, the exposure to chemicals that would one day kill him is dramatically reduced, though small cancers would trouble him for the rest of his life. I know that toward the end he may have appeared pathetic but this was just the drugs. He was a strong man with a strong will to fight. Also as you say South, the more austere life leads to his heart being healthier, rendering the stroke that would be the slippery slope to death null. This means he still a fit and strong man now, in fact even more so. Though not leader of the Agricultural Party, he was a strong voice on the National Council and his political ideas about agricultural redistribution lead to a proliferation of jobs as young mean and women served their 'National Service' not in the Guardsmen but in the fields. His popularity as food became an exportable product and wealth flowed into East Britains coffers ultimately lead to his election as King of East Britain. Bob 11:01, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * With all that information, you need only move it to the article in an organized fashion and the article can be on its way to graduation. --SouthWriter 15:58, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Article created by BSE. Mitro 17:17, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Kola
Article I'm going to make about a survivor nation in the Kola Peninsula.

Sorry, forgot to sign. CheesyCheese 00:27, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Great idea. It seems that we have one former Soviet state for every five former Americans. That is an exagguration, but it is still great to have the region be fleshed out more.

Yankovic270 06:25, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

The First Coast
A new survivor nation in Florida.--Sunkist- 06:11, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Anything look out of place or something I need to change? Trying to get it canonized as fast as possible.--Sunkist- 20:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

If nobody objects I say we get it graduated pretty quickly because without this article graduated the Republic of Florida will have to wait a bit more. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, this article was just created a couple of days ago and IMO all North American survivor states should not be graduated quickly due to the huge debate that happened a few months ago. Lets give it some time for people to review. Mitro 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * How 'bout now, any objections to passing as stub? Arstarpool (August 21)


 * I agree that the First Coast would have arisen as some sort of community, but that it should be a new "nation" with which the two other Floridas reunite is still not proven. Just as likely, the governments in the larger states would combine and then admit the east coast communities. As for the Republic of Florida, there is no need to graduate that article before the details are worked out. --SouthWriter 23:39, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, can we graduate this now?--Sunkist- 19:30, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Daytona Beach is listed as a potential nuclear target. Besides its famous beaches, it also has some manufacturing and is a foreign trade hot spot. Mitro 01:40, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Article by me and Sunkist and Zack. It will be the result of a unification between First Coast, South Florida and Gainesville. Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Any objections to stubby-ness? Arstarpool 20:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much I'm restating the same reasons that I had above. Mitro 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The nation-state of First Coast (East Florida) is itself still a proposal, not having proven its own viability. The date you give for South Florida joining up is in 1996. I am pretty sure you mean 2010. Before you run headlong into this reunification, let's see if you can make First Coast work first. Meanwhile, let's change "Gainseville" back to "North Florida" (Sunkist - formerly known as Perryz - is back and he's the reason Zack changed the name).
 * I haven't researched East Florida, though it looks okay in concept. A balkanized Florida, like a balkanized Texas, does not make sense. Therefore, once we have established "East Florida," we can work on pulling them together, but I think the capital should be in Gainesville (a split capital really isn't necessary). SouthWriter 02:04, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that a balkanized Texas does make sense, at least in the aftermath of Doomsday. The size of Texas, combined with the number of nuclear strikes on State, makes it likely that Texas would split.HAD 18:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that a balkanized Texas does make sense, at least in the aftermath of Doomsday. The size of Texas, combined with the number of nuclear strikes on State, makes it likely that Texas would split.HAD 18:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Alabama (Florence)
A proposal for a small state in north Alabama also part of the Muscle Shoals CSA. BrianD 04:34, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Mississippi (Corinth)
Another state that was part of the Muscle Shoals CSA, based in northeast Mississippi. BrianD 04:34, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Texas
A placeholder for the planned reunificiation of the various nation-states currently in former Texas, with an article that gives a brief overview of how the unification would happen, and potential political alliances, as of mid-August 2010. This is the article that Arstarpool started on his own initiative, but as it is dealing with articles I am the caretaker of, I have gone ahead and filled in the details. BrianD 20:24, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

How is it looking? Any objections? Arstarpool 04:43, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

2012 Summer Olympics
About the Olympics. VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Guyana Esequiba War
War mentioned at the Guyana Co-Operativa article

any objection to graduation ? VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why so soon, is there really no plans to expand on it? Mitro 02:24, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Surely this condtricts canon? The borders of the Co-Operative have been set for along time. I know that Venezuela has a claim on Guyana territory, but I doubt they would act in the immediate aftermath of Doomsday.HAD 19:16, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

It has actually long been canon that this attack occurred, just not advertised much. Check out the article of the co-operative.

Lordganon 08:18, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Caucasus Emirate
About crazy, Islamic state in the Caucasus, tiny but claims many lands that are not from them. VENEZUELA 17:09, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * We need more ideas like these. Although it's not yet filled in I like it so far. Arstarpool 04:53, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * So Ven would you say this is a theocratic city state? --GOPZACK 16:26, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes. VENEZUELA 17:31, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Duchy of Lancaster
An English survivour nation in the county of Lancashire. Just an introduction so far, I'll add more once I'm sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes.Tessitore 17:48, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I am glad to see another survivor community in Lancashire in my article it was originally thought Manchester was hit by 2 nukes but the nukes malfunctioned saving the city--Owen1983 23:07, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Owen, I believe that you've already been informed on a number of occassions that Manchester is toast in this timeline. Learn to take a hint will you. Tessitore 23:16, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Owen, Manchester is gone. G.O.N.E. H-Bombs tend to do that to cities. HAD 08:20, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

I plan it to be a sort of rump state comprised of the remnants of the US Military and initially the US's Atlantic territories until eventually it begins to deteriorate until it is comprised of two or three small islands in the present day. It will be kind of a mix between the APA and the CRUSA. Arstarpool 02:08, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I left my comments on the talk page. Mitro 04:18, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Food
I've started a page on this, since if there's a page on what people are drinking then there should really be one on what they're eating.Tessitore 20:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

International Health Organization
Page about WHO after Doomsday, based in Geneva.--Sunkist- 22:21, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Baron Hill
Page about Baron Hill's and political life after DD, and his role in Kentuckys Gov.--Sunkist- 22:21, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Neonotia (New South)
SouthWriter's proposal for a nation-state in OTL southern Alabama and Georgia, with former President Carter involved. BrianD 17:41, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

The name is kind of wierd, kind of something you would see in the original Map Games, but the details are okay I guess. Arstarpool 23:19, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Wales
A survivor republic based in southeast Wales. Jnjaycpa 17:53, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Second Empire of Trabzon
I have just completed an article on the Second Empire of Trabzon, a now-extinct monarchy in post-Doomsday Turkey that was extinguished by the Sultanate of Turkey in 2009. It claims to be the (nominal) successor to the original Greek Empire of Trebizond based in modern Trabzon, Turkey. --Emperor of Trebizond 19:44, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Looks fine, but graduation will have to wait until the Sultanate is graduated.

Lordganon 00:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Greek Revival
So with Mr. Xeight's permission me and Lordganon have been filling out Greece including doing some articles on the various states that made up the confederation before it was unified at the end of last year.
 * Flag of Greece (1983: Doomsday)
 * Agion Oros (1983: Doomsday)
 * Cyprus (1983: Doomsday)
 * Heptanesa (1983: Doomsday)
 * Dodecanese Republic (1983: Doomsday)
 * Morea (1983: Doomsday)
 * Hellenic Republic (1983: Doomsday)
 * Cyrenaica (1983: Doomsday)
 * Delian League (1983: Doomsday)
 * Thrace Reclamation Zone (1983: Doomsday)

We'll be filling these out for the next little while as well as expanding on the existing greece article. I'll put up the article for greek egypt once I get it started.Oerwinde 23:06, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Can I work on Cyprus and Hellenic Republic? Arstarpool 23:10, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

They're both already being worked on. Mr.Xeight 01:21, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Me, Oer, and Xeight have them all covered. This includes Thrace as well, even if I didn't end up making it last night.

(edit - that's made now too)

Lordganon 05:46, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

The Republic of Indiana
Nation located in the former state of Indiana. Thanks to all who helped .--Sunkist- 04:39, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Imperial Chinese State
Can anybody help me find an heir to the Chinese throne that I can use in an article I am going to make? Arstarpool 00:12, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I did some digging earlier when trying to come up with a Chinese revival of the monarchy. I believe the current heir was a member of the People's Liberation Army stationed in what becomes the Uyghur Socialist Republic.Oerwinde 00:45, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Would it be ok if I wrote that he was banished into the Chinese wastelands, since the Soviets aren't the biggest fans of monarchy, and managed to establish a small control sphere or an empire-in-exile? Arstarpool 00:53, August 30, 2010 (UTC)+

He was a communist. I doubt he would want to. He was also a technician in the army, so he probably doesn't even have the leadership or combat ability to carve himself an empire.Oerwinde 01:00, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he could be part of the People's Kingdom! Heres my idea: Him and some PLAs could try to revolt against the Soviets and get banished, and get picked up on the other side of China by Jiangsu. If not I could use him for Taiwan-China as a political figure or a supporter of "The One China".Arstarpool 01:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * You could definately have some banished PLA members going from Uyghuristan, as that is already a part of the history of that former country.--Vladivostok 08:53, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Bosnia
A continuation of my work in the Balkans.--Vladivostok 08:53, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Article describing the history of the state of Maine after Doomsday. Created by Arstar but I have written most of it due to being caretaker of Aroostook. Mitro 17:24, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

=CURRENT REVIEWS= Review Archive

Sometimes articles are graduated into canon even though they contradict current canon or are so improbable that they are damaging to the timeline. If you feel an article should not be in canon, mark it with the   template and give your reasons why on the article's talk page and here. If consensus is that you are correct, the article will need to be changed in order to remain in canon. If it is changed the proposal template is removed once someone moves to graduate it back into canon. If the article is not changed in 30 days, the article will be mared as obsolete. If consensus is that you are wrong, however, the proposal template will be removed without having to change the article.

Outer Banks
This article, created by an anonymous editor and graduated by Mitro, has been dormant. Recent concerns about plausibility lead me to add it back to the proposal list. If anonymous would reveal himself, or someone would adopt the article, these problems could be cleared up. SouthWriter 01:07, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

If the original writer does not come forward, I would be willing to take a stab at the article since the area is near Delmarva and the two areas would likely have contact. I will not do anything however until someone gives me the okay to proceed. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 04:52, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

=FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES= Archive 1, Archive 2

''This subsection is for decisive and vital issues concerning the 1983: Doomsday Timeline. Due to the complexity level we have reached with 1983: Doomsday now, each of these issues might have world-spanning consequences that affect dozens of articles. Please treat this section with the necessary respect and do not place discussions that do not belong here.''

Time for Cleaning WRCB Divisions
It's time to clean the WRCB divisions, some users like the one that have the Asia division has never create and article and has not enter the page like since 2008. It's time to eliminate this divisions because they are not controled. VENEZUELA 20:13, August 17, 2010 (UTC) THis are the changes I propose: VENEZUELA 20:27, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

WCRB Centroamerican Command - Mexíca Guinesscap = WRCB Mexican Command-Mexica Guinesscap

WCRB Asia Command - Bela Exvoxmachina = deleted

WCRB Rocky Mountains Expeditionary Division - Billings Loughery111 =deleted

Nobody should have the right to delete people's positions as it is there positions and not ours. Even if they did not create an article there are no requirements for a post that say you need to make a nation.


 * ...Yes they should, if they haven't contributed. Would you like it if someone was on your sports team but never did anything? Remember what the page says: "But It also serves us, the regular contributors, as a form of representation. The "WCRB" represents/acknowledges faithful and good contributors and assigns them an "identity" in between the organisation and also some special rights/functions." Fegaxeyl 11:22, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

But Where?
On approximately April 6th-10th, 2010 I professed my love for all-things Aragon and proposed an Aragonese statelet, and Mr. Carnehl proposed that that Aragonese statelet angle itself to become head of the Iberian Confederation and some nationalist party within the Confederation as such began to re-Aragonify the area, even having Aragonese become the official language of the state(s?) and having Aragonese become the administrative language and encouraged to become the vernacular. I checked both of the old archives and looked for any articles I wrote in April, but I could not find anything. Now, since the caretaker of Iberia is back, I'd like to find him the old proposal and show him the ideas Mr. Carnehl and I worked on. Does anyone know where I can find it? I remember the day Mitro archived it, I just don't remember what that day was, just that I was present when it happened... Mr.Xeight 22:11, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry buddy, I would just check the proposal archives it has to be there somewhere. Mitro 14:23, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Nordic Union Admissions
Having checked the page on the Nordic Union, it says that Karelia and Estonia were due to be annexed on August 10th. It's now August 26th... and no mention of this pretty important geopolitical event has been made. As well as politely requesting the curator of the Nordic Union article makes the necessary additions to reflect this news, could I make a recommendation that we have a page where future events that are set in stone (i.e. known annexations and sports events, not idle speculation) be placed, like a calendar? Fegaxeyl 16:45, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, he has actually added them to the page and I have added history to the pages in question regarding their admission. But, there hasn't been all that much added to the economy section or history section regarding the issue.--Vladivostok 17:38, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

US Congress
Early on in the timeline it was stated no evacuation was possible but by my calculations September 26 was a Monday and congressmen or women would be informed but with the general chaos they would be on their own its a fair assumption thay would make it out of the capitol to either Maryland or Virginia --Owen1983 17:19, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The attack occurred Sunday evening Eastern Time in America. BrianD 17:37, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've covered this elsewhere with Owen "in attendance," I believe. It seems he is just raising questions to get credit for doing so. However, it is true that the legistators would have been informed - perhaps by some form of telephone link (we could hope there was some such system in place) - before the general public. If not, though, they would certainly not hesitate to head out away from Washington when they heard the news. At most they would have had an hour. Though it is written that they weren't evacuated as such, we can assume that they knew of Greenbrier and that some of them made it there.
 * In a way, it would probably have worked better with there NOT being "at work" that day. SouthWriter 16:28, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * In a way, it would probably have worked better with there NOT being "at work" that day. SouthWriter 16:28, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

South American and Australian Colonies
Although the world is slowly stabalizing, most of the world is still in chaos. I can very easily picturing some less devestated countries in South America establishing colonies or protectorates in the former United States and Asia. Although there would most definately be an outcry from several survivor states, these nations would be almost unchallenged. This would be a new age of imperialism, and the irony is delicous. I can even picture Australia taking over land. Is it plausible for modern day colonies to form? JackofSpades 20:55, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. This probably wouldn't happen. The SAC has made their hatred of imperialism clear and, since they're former colonies, they know what it feels like. ANZC has no reason, be it economic, military, territorial, or political, to establish colonies. OTL Australia and New Zealand aren't into anything related to any form of imperialism. The only thing they've done so far is admit English-speaking survivor states as associates. Caeruleus 22:26, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually the might fit under this category since it is jointly administered by both blocs. Mitro 22:48, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that technically a colony though? I believe its existence is due only to the fact that a safe harbor was needed in southern Africa and the LoN mandated it. I view it as more of a peacekeeping mission than anything else. Caeruleus 23:41, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * RZA is a special case - an old remnant of South Africa that had become a tragic shell of itself. International intervention was necessary to stop its total collapse. I would hope that New Britain will one day be allowed to administer that area, giving the transplanted British a decent chance to rise back to a place of influence in world politics. --SouthWriter 16:51, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

governments are focused on feeding there populations and as radiation is still a problem they would be focusing there resources on humanitarian research like new farming methods and combating radiation sickness --Owen1983 01:27, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Owen, the ANZC and SAC are the two most powerful nations on the planet. And they're also amongst the least affected by radiation. If they have the resources to establish a global community (the LoN) and explore the planet with a fleet of former NATO vessels, then the issues you're describing (while valid in a handful of nations in the world) do not affect the nations in question. Fegaxeyl 08:52, August 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Owen has a point, though, Feg. The "global" nature of the LoN does give these power blocks should have been working toward solutions in the devastated areas. The fact that the LoN was so long in forming reflects a decades long deficiency in their efforts in learning the true state of the world above the equator.


 * However, we have to work within the framework of the time line as created so far. Left on their own for so long, many survivor nations did not have the resources to even rebuild communications networks. With the loss of readily available fuel imports (processed and unprocessed oil), these nations would be "self contained" for decades. The coming of the new superpowers from the south after a quarter of a century can only be in a humanitarian role, for interventionism is not to their best interests. --SouthWriter 16:51, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Organizations
Should there be a separate Doomsday category for organizations in the post-Doomsday world?--Emperor of Trebizond 12:10, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is Category:Organizations (1983: Doomsday). Mitro 23:04, August 29, 2010 (UTC)