Talk:Principia Moderni III (Map Game)

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Algo Template (WIP)
This algo template is being worked on in order to standardize algos, which will make it simpler for mods to check them and fix them. Once this algo template is declared official, a mod (probably me) will declare that at the start of the turn following the declaration, all algos must follow this format and if not, they will not be regarded as valid.

Feel free to comment about the algo template, suggest something that would increase it's effectivity, ask questions, or even suggest changes to the algo. Note that no matter what, nothing but the hundreth/thousandth digit of the Edit Count / UTC time * pi will be bolded in the algo.

Cheers, SkyGreen24 17:33, January 28, 2015 (UTC)

===Attacker=== *Location: **Location Bonus: *Tactical Advantage: *Nations Per Side: *Military Development: *Economic Development: *Expansion: *Motive: **Modifiers: *Chance: **Edits: **UTC (ABCD) = A * B * C * D = ** /  * pi = *Nation Age: *Population: *Participation: *Number of Troops: *Theaters of War: *Concurrent Wars: Total: ===Defender=== *Location: **Location Bonus: *Tactical Advantage: *Nations per side: *Military Development: *Economy Development: *Infrastructure: *Expansion: *Motive: **Modifiers: *Chance: **Edits: **UTC (ABCD) = A * B * C * D = ** /  * pi = *Nation Age: *Population: *Participation: *Recent Wars: *Troops strength: *Theaters of War: *Concurrent Wars: Total: ===Result=== ===Discussion===

Industrial algo update
Due to us beginning to drive into the industrial age, the algo needs to be updated accordingly, With this having happened in PMII with decent success (and one of our redeeming qualities that someone always updates the maps usually) we will be replicating this here (support was shown by multiple mods a few of which were PMII veterans.) This will be represented on a map much like the Game map, but with the colors replaced to represent differing industrial levels and when they started. A Chart to represent will go below this post and just above that a map (currently in progress) will be posted to represented our first industrializers. In extenuating circumstances the chart can be superceded to show a change in industrial development quicker than represented on the chart but this will only be for Meiji, or rapid German industrialization efforts.

In the algo a n algorythm multiplier would be applied to all wars with the side with a higher stage gaining 10% extra for each stage higher they are. an example would be in a war between Britain and France, the British are 3 stages ahead of the French in terms of industrial development (for whatever circumstance caused this) the British would multiple their ending score by 1.3.

If anyone is wondering, currently industrialization will be mostly in europe with a select few nations outside of the continent it would be currently taking place (nations with a realistic reason to adopt it as such such as asian nations with a extremely anti-colonial attitude, or something along the lines of Japan.) Industrialization in the Americas (when stuff goes independent) will depend on how the territory is when it gains independence and will more than likely have to be handled on a case by case basis like the outside of Europe industrializers. Stage 1= Stage 2​= Stage 3= Stage 4​= Stage 5= Stage 6​= Stage 7=
 * The Air Furnace is developed
 * Agriculture begins to rapidly shift with fertilizers and rest years for the fields
 * Chemistry develops in leaps and bounds
 * Steam Power is developed and water wheels are heavily utilized
 * Various chemicals are produced in large amounts
 * Health care and anatomic understanding improve, birth rates still high but death rates on a massive decline
 * Urbanisation begins on a significant scale
 * Paper mills develop with the tech to produce large reels of paper
 * Cloth factories begin using machines and steam power to increase productivity massively to keep up with population boom's clothing demand
 * Some revolutionary rumbles appear
 * Experimental Railways begin to crop up
 * Stronger cements are produced
 * Steel and Glass are avaliable
 * A few colonies and nations will have rebellions in this period
 * Ironclads and Artillery become widely used in combat
 * Revolutions by poorer citizens in cities become frequent
 * Wide use of civilian and military purpose use railways
 * Tanks and planes appear
 * Total War emerges with populations also targetted
 * Nationalism appears in larger multicultural nations
 * Atomic age begins a decade before the start of this age with certain nations able to make nuclear weapons
 * Wars between atomic powers CEASE, due to the threat and consequences of nuclear war
 * Colonies rebel for independence

Discussion
As Said Above, Industrialization aside from a few cases (and a case by case evaluation of tier jumps such as a US/German rapid industrialization, or a Japan Meiji or an Asian anti colonial reasoning) will be mostly within Europe and the Americas initially. As a relatively new person to the industrial tier buisiness i will be consulting PMII vets on how it was implemented but for right now due to ease the only two current industrializing states are France and Spain (and the other particulars will be worked out before another one joins the mix). Please bear with us while i gather the needed information to implement this properly.

The intended purpose of this is to prevent an unindustrialized state such as a disorganized tribe being able to deal a true and terrible blow to the Great industrial powers since this rarely happened, (and when it did it was usually due to vast numerical superiority, and even then it only happened once or twice). This is also to simulate a war and the vast advantages provided by industry in this case.

In the case of colonies, that can/will be handled by the mother nation. Plausibly most nations did not let directly owned colonies to industrialize (which is in fact represented by the fact that most colonies will be represented by the mother nations industrial colors). Colonies, under certain circumstances will be allowed to industrialize independently, and due to the access to technology and depending on their terms of industrialization (if they fought a 15 year war of independence like most of Spain OTL colonies) then industrialization will be a rather tough thing to propose to a new nation that would be essentially bankrupt right off the bat. Colonies that Gain Self rule or co-opting rule of any kind will also be able to industrialize in most cases due to the relatively open nature in which its being done. However a problem with this is how will you as a Colonial power manage your self ruling colonies industrial policy without inciting revolt.

This Era must be played carefully while the pertinent information is being discussed please be patient, but for now play on, enioy the game, and plan your moves Carefully

Map Issues
''' The issues of the previous map shall be cleared after each map to save up space, unless a discussion is still going on. '''


 * Algonquia should control the whole Bahamas, Hispaniola (bought from Brittannia a while back), and the black territory in OTL Nunavut. Shikata ga nai! 16:01, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Labelled


These great and wonderful maps have been made and labelled by Scandinator. Please be sure to thank him for his intense dedication and deep-level research that he put into these maps.

Cultural


Now, I will attempt to list the myriad of cultures that are represented on the map. To do so, I will go by continent.

It is finished! 01:34, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Religious Map
Alright, added another religion map. Map is based off of the 1655 Map. Same rules apply: List all changes below in the Notes section.

18:46, October 17, 2014 (UTC)

Color Key

All regions are shown according to their plurality religion.

Catholicism is yellow; the Western Church nations are shown in dark gold, and Catholic states whose churches function independently of the Roman Church are shown in pale yellow. Ludwigism is shown in bright gold. Eastern Orthodoxy is orange; Oriental Orthodox sub-branches are burnt orange. *Reformism is red. Sunni Islam is lime green, Shia Islam is forest green; Ibadiyya Islam is dark green, Assafi Islam is bright green, and Paganistic Islam is mint green. The Mastorava is teal blue, Hinduism is sky blue, and Buddhism is dark blue; the Bon religion is pale blue, and Mongolian Buddhism is grey-blue. Confucianism is purple, while Shintoism is violet. Other "pagan" religions are pink; the Mesoamerican pantheon is light pink, the South American pantheon is hot pink, the North American pantheon is fuchsia, and the African pantheons are all dark pink. Other religions will be added as needed.

Notes
 * Added Charismatic Christianity and Mogul Khanate is now Charismatic king Trevor 1 of wales (talk) 12:38, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Added Lutherism for HollandDrPepperisbetter (talk) 22:27, June 2, 2015 (UTC)

Mod Event Grievances
Just so that it doesn't clutter the page, please post your mod event questions, comments and grievances here. This -should- be archived every five years.

=General Discussion=

Intro
As we all know, the PMIII algo is seriously biased towards the number of nations participating. And so, the mods (mostly me, Crimmyboo and MP) set forth to find a solution. And Pita suggested his new algo for AvA, which I decided to look into.

So I did. Since Pita is Asian, his mathematical skills are unsurpassed, which allowed me to more or less take the algo, with minor tweaks and adjustments. I hope you all read it through and give me your opinion on it.

Note: The industrial update will have a heavy impact on the algo, since we lack tiers. Second note: I'm using tabbers now, tabbers are cool. EDIT: Tr0ll doesn't like my tabbers. Third note: Numbers are not rounded up/down anymore. Everything stays the way it is.

Location
Location is a tricky one, since it usually only factors in the distance, while I also want to factor in the speed of transport etc.

Mostly, location goes by capital city, however I disagree with that. It will also include locations that are militarized (i.e. Rhein area pre-WW2). As you might've noticed, all but the 'at' locations are italicized. Why? Well, because the infrastructure and industrial development of a nation highly impact its ability to mobilize and get to a location in a set time period. Which is why each of the 7 stages will be given a multiplier that will affect the location.
 * At the location of war: +15
 * Next to the location of war: +8
 * Close to the location of war: +4
 * Far from the location of war: -4
 * Other side of the world: -8

Tactical advantage
This one will not be impacted by industrial stages, atleast not until modern times.
 * Attacker’s advantage: +2
 * Defender’s advantage: +5
 * Surprise attack: Attackers +6
 * Home is island: Defenders +4
 * Home is desert: Defenders +6
 * Home is jungle/tropical: Defenders +8
 * Home is tundra/arctic: Defenders +10 in winter, +12 in spring
 * Amphibious landing: Defenders +6

Strength
I decided to stay true to the ol' PMIII algo and thus, strength won't be that similar to AvA. Instead, a system similar to PM's Nation-per-side will be used.
 * L - +Industrial stage
 * M - +0.75 Industrial stage
 * S - +0.5 Industrial stage
 * V - -0.25 Industrial stage
 * 3 or more V and PU (PU=L) - -0.25 per extra V/PU (starting from the third one)
 * Much larger economy - +5
 * Larger economy - +3
 * Better military (weapons, armour, training, number etc.) - +3
 * Fully mobilized - +3
 * Naval dominance: +5

Motive
Motive was obviously going to be more PMIII-akin than Ava-akin, however I also decided to add a Sky twist to it. Vassal motive:
 * Economic (Gains land, resources, etc): + 3
 * Aiding Ally: + 3
 * Defending territory not held for more than 20 years: + 4
 * Defending territory not part of heartland but held for more than 20 years: + 5
 * Taking territory of similar culture but not part of nation: + 5
 * Pre-emptive Strike against a nation rapidly building military forces: + 5
 * Taking back territory recently held by nation but since lost: + 6
 * Aiding Social/Moral/Ideological/Religious Kinsmen who are being oppressed: + 7
 * Attacking to enforce political hegemony: +7
 * Defending Heartland from attack that will not cripple/ destroy nation: + 5
 * Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack + 9
 * Defending from attack that will wipe out nation and culture: + 10 (pre-nuclear era), + 15 (post-nuclear era)
 * Defending from nuclear armed nation that has a motive over 5 and has not yet used their weaponry: + 10
 * Defending from nuclear armed nation, regardless of motive, that has used said weaponry: + 15
 * If a vassal that is fighting has revolted within the last 30 years, its motive is multiplied by 0.75

Motive is averaged

Morale
Morale is now separated from motive, as motive only affects the soldiers, while morale affects the whole population of a nation. Total morale is calculated in the same way as motive
 * Non-democratic Government: -2
 * Democratic government: +3
 * Government not supported by people: -10
 * WAR not supported by people (democratic) : -3
 * WAR not supported by people (non-democratic): -2
 * Troop Morale high (requires motive over or equal to 5, chance over 4, and larger strength: +5
 * Troop Morale low (any of the following: chance below 1, srength less or equal to 50% of opponents, recent war penalty over 8): - 5
 * Fighting Guerrilla War: -5 attacker, + 1 defender
 * Multiple concurrent wars: -10 (per nation and its vassals and PUs)
 * Defeat suffered within the previous two years: -2 per defeat

Chance
Good ol' chance. This one stays the same For NPCs, the chance will be defined as the thousandth place of z, using the exact same algorithm as the player nation.
 * Edit number = x
 * War declaration time digits multiplied (0s are treated as 1s) = y
 * x/y*pi = z
 * Chance = Hundredth place of z

Population

 * The population score is the number of digits in the population + the additional bonus, which is below:
 * +2 to the larger nation that is less than five times the population of the smaller.
 * +10 if the larger nation is between five and ten times the population of the smaller.
 * +20 if the larger nation is more than ten times the population.

Nation age
Goes by the last major change in the system of government.
 * Newborn nation (less than 5 years since gov change; 3 years if popular revolt) = -10
 * Young nation (5–25 years since government change) = -5
 * Maturing nation (25–75 years) = +0
 * Mature nation (75–200 years) = +5
 * Old nation (200–300 years) = +0
 * Ancient nation (300–500 years) = -5
 * Antique nation (more than 500 years) = -15

Recent wars

 * -2 for Leadership in any war in the past 15 years.
 * -1 for and Military or supply support in the past 15 years

Troop number
Same as old algo, the larger gets divided by the smaller.

Other stuff

 * Participation: +10
 * Treaty breaking: -5
 * Alliance breaking: -10
 * -1 per turn you have expanded.
 * If your nation has recently had a popular revolt soon after a new weak government was formed (like Adolf Hitler or Napoleon Bonaparte) your score is multiplied by 1.5 for all wars in the next ten years. However, you cannot have multiple popular revolts of this nature in a row without government changes in between.
 * City-states get a *0.5 modifier for the amount of territory they lose in the initial results algorithm and can take territory so long as the nation they take it from has territory to take close enough for the city-states to rule without it being considered a colony.
 * If you take 33.33% of your opponent's territory or more, you can topple their government and do whatever is plausible to their nation that you wish.
 * It may be implausible for a nation to take or lose the full amount of territory listed in the algorithm.
 * You can add together winning percentage scores in order to total 33.33% if all of the wars happened within a 30 year period.
 * A popular revolt requires over 33.33% to be put down, while one that isn't popular only requires a victory.
 * Small ports (e.g. Shanghai, Hong Kong), cannot be a nation in a war unless that port specifically is being attacked.
 * For measuring the length of wars, the turn war is declared counts as the first year if fighting takes place in it. So for example, if the algo says the war lasts three years, then the turn the war was declared counts as the first IF the target was also invaded. It is possible to not invade the turn war is declared, although this gives the enemy the possibility of mobilizing.

Result
The same as before.

(x/(x+y))*2-1=z

z*(1-1/(2*t))=%

Post your opinions below, hopefully with constructive criticism.

Algo reform discussion
Can we remove the tabs? All they're doing is hiding the content and making it harder to read. Also what does this reform do to address the actual problems that led to it? What does it do for vassals, for example? Also with this system an independent Gotland would probably repulse the entire Empire of Scandinavia, since they'd get +29 in tactical advantage alone. Tr0llis (talk) 16:25, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Here's what I'd rather see, instead of basically all of this (EDIT: When I said all of this I meant location and tactical advantage. Sky has since edited to add more, which I have yet to read). Note I did not write this, and it is not finished. it's just a snippet I found: {{Hidden|snippet|

Location
Location goes by attacker's closest territory and defender's targeted territory, in which fighting actively takes place.

Attacker


 * 20 - Borders territory of enemy where fighting is actively taking place, in same continent
 * 15 - Attacking territory on the same continent, traveling primarily by land.
 * 10 - Attacking distant territory on the same continent or across major bodies of water; attacking neighboring subcontinents or regions (France to Russia, United Kingdom to Denmark, Germany to Syria).
 * 5 - Attacking territory on a distant continent (United States to Germany, Spain to Mexico).

Defender


 * 25 - Defending territory is part of core territory/homeland; area under attack is near capital or in easily accessible area from it.
 * 20 - Defending neighboring territory within home continent.
 * 15 - Defending distant territory or important/large territory on another continent (United Kingdom defending Canada or India).
 * 10 - Defending vastly distant or minor possession (United Kingdom defending Singapore).

Each nation or possession involved in combat gets a location, and each location is added up then divided by number of nations per that side.

Supply Lines
Attacker
 * 10 - Attacking an area that borders core sections of nation; easily accessible to troops and supplies.
 * 5 - Attacking distant area on continent, or via amphibious landing.
 * 0 - Attacking on the other side of the world, and/or with amphibious landing.

Modifiers
 * Added to each nation that is less than ten for supply lines:
 * 2 - Attacker has major empire at least twice as large as home nation.
 * 2 - Attacker has supporting fleet connecting their home nation to battlefield.
 * 2 - Attacker has intermediary territory between their home nation and the battlefield that can be used to supply or safe guard ships.
 * Added once:
 * -10 - Subjected to scorched earth retreat.
 * -10 - Blockade completely cutting off supplies to front lines.

Defender
 * 10 - Defending home territory or neighboring/nearby areas.
 * 5 - Defending disconnected or distant territory.

Modifiers
 * Added to each nation that is less than ten for supply lines:
 * 2 - Defender has major empire at least twice as large as home nation.
 * 2 - Defender has supporting fleet connecting their home nation to battlefield.
 * 2 - Defender has intermediary territory between their home nation and the battlefield that can be used to supply or safe guard ships.
 * Added once:
 * -10 - Subjected to scorched earth retreat.
 * -10 - Blockade completely cutting off supplies to front lines.

Tactical Advantage
Attacker
 * 25 - Utilizes blitzkrieg or rapid overpowering by advanced technology or superior numbers (WW2 Germany, Revolutionary France, European Subjugation of natives).
 * 20 - Is on equal footing to defender in terms of technology.
 * 15 - Amphibious landing or distant invasion; charge against superior defenses.
 * 10 - Raid or low quality attack.

Modifiers (Once per side)
 * Superior Numbers: 5
 * Siege weapons or artillery: 5

Defender
 * 20 - Defending

Modifiers (Once per side) }}
 * Superior Numbers: 5
 * High quality fortifications: 5

Tr0llis (talk) 16:30, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Could've atleast waited till I finish it. However I will look into it. SkyGreen24 16:47, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: I tried to implement the snippet version in previous algos, and it just doesn't cut it (note: I used 1 on 1 algos, to avoid the issues of the previous algo). I'm going to use the initial one, but with an adapted tactical advantage. SkyGreen24 18:17, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Just a question, could we have a mock war with multiple nations per side just to see how its implemented for future reference?-Lx (leave me a message) 20:23, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but I need ideas for participants, if you could help mayhaps? SkyGreen24 16:34, April 6, 2015 (UTC)


 * A war with multiple indian states perhaps? that area of the world is both fractured and devoid of player-states it seems.-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 19:48, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

World War II (Locked to Non-Mods and Beligerents)
Borealian Invasion of Burma Pacific Protection Sphere
 * Location: -4 * .75 = -3


 * Tactical Advantage: +2 +6


 * Strength: +6 +5 +5 +3.75 +3 +3 +5


 * Motive: +7


 * Morale: +3


 * Chance:


 * Nation Age: +5


 * Population: +8


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: 0


 * Total: 68.75 + chance

India

 * Location: 15


 * Tactical Advantage: +5


 * Strength: +6 +3


 * Motive: 5


 * Morale: 3


 * Chance:


 * Nation Age: 0


 * Population: +19


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: -6


 * Number of Troops: 4 million/2 million = 2


 * Multiple Fronts: -10
 * Total: 52 + chance

Results
about 14% for PPS

after three years of war, 11.56%

Spain

 * Location: -4 * .75 = -3


 * Tactical Advantage: +2


 * Strength: +6 +6 +5 +3.75 +4.5 +4.5 +5 +3 +3 +3


 * Motive: +5


 * Morale: +3


 * Chance: chance


 * Nation Age: 0


 * Population: +8


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Total: 69 + chance

India

 * Location: 15


 * Tactical Advantage: +5


 * Strength: +6 +3


 * Motive: 5


 * Morale: 3


 * Chance:


 * Nation Age: 0


 * Population: +19


 * Participation: 10


 * Recent Wars: -6


 * Number of Troops: 4 million/2 million = 2

Total: 52 + chance
 * Multiple Fronts: -10

Results
12% for Spain or thereabouts

after 3 years of war, 10.35%

Holy League

 * Location: 8*1.125 = 9
 * Tactical Advantage: +2 +6
 * Strength: +6 +4 (Assyria) +4 (Georgia) +3 (Transylvania) +3 (Vlachia) +5 +5 +3 +3
 * Motive: +7
 * Morale: +5
 * Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 9173/12 * pi = 2401.49 = 9
 * Population: +8 +2
 * Nation Age: 0
 * Troop number: 4mil/2mil? = 2
 * Other stuff: +10
 * Total: 96

Caliphate

 * Location: 15*1.125 = 16.875
 * Tactical Advantage: +5
 * Strength: +6+3
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: -7
 * Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
 * Population: +8
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Other stuff: +10
 * Other fronts: -10
 * Total: 51.875

Results
[(96/147.875 * 2 - 1)*100] * [1-(1/(2*3))] = 24.86%

Tartary (Holy League)

 * Location: 8*1.125 = 9
 * Tactical Advantage: +2 +6
 * Strength: +6 +3 +3 +3
 * Motive: +7
 * Morale: +3
 * Chance:  (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
 * Population: +8
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Troop number: 1mil/1mil? = 0
 * Other stuff: +10
 * Total: 71

Caliphate

 * Location: 15*1.125 = 16.875
 * Tactical Advantage: +5
 * Strength: +6+3
 * Motive: +5
 * Morale: -2
 * Chance: (Time: 10:43=12, Edits: ) 4027/12 * pi = 1054.266 = 6
 * Population: +8
 * Nation Age: +5
 * Other stuff: +10
 * Other fronts: -10
 * Total: 52.875

Results
[(71/123.875 * 2 - 1)*100] * [1-(1/(2*3))] = 12.19%

Discussion
So I appreciate any possible algo check and please do post concerns here, but I think this is open and shut. For people to be aware of, there is a third algo, of Ethiopia invading Somalia, but since two algos already add up to more than 33%, I was lazy and didn't do it. If that changes and it needs to be done, I will.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 01:16, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rhine Front
France and Netherlands


 * Location: 9+9-6 (Andea's location is debatable for the reasons I will leave below, but it will be left as is for now)+9+4.5=5.1
 * Tactical: 2 +6 (Attack isn't exactly a suprise, yes, but the German side was demilitarized and I found no mention of Remilitarization, meaning France was completly ready for war and Germany had no defences)
 * Strength: +6 +6 +6 +6 +4.5 +3 +3 +4.5 (France, Andea, Netherlands, England, Erie, Boreliea, Algonquia, Sudafrica (Last three are just supporting the war)) +3 (Spain limited) +5 (Naval Superiority (Conceded Blockade)) +3 (Fully moblized) +5 (Much Larger Economy (Coaltion consists of some of the largest economies on the planet. Andea alone would match or be slightly behind or ahead of Germany, with the other memebers the Germany economy would be outmatched) +3 (Better Military) (At this point Germany is facing what is probably more than (or close to) double their population, Germany doesn't have the industrial ablity to arm enough men to match the coaltion especially where they are fighting on 3 fronts across the planet.)=55
 * Motive: +7+3+3+3+3 = 3.8
 * Morale: -2+3+3+3 = 1.75
 * Chance:
 * Population: +9+2
 * Troops: Wildly different
 * Age: -10 -5 +0+5+5= -1
 * Participation: +10
 * Total:96.65+chance+troops

Germany

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 5
 * Strength: 6
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: +3-5 (even taking out the arguable bonuses would leave them with well under 50%)=-2
 * Chance:
 * Population: +8
 * Age: 0
 * Multiple Fronts: -15
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 36+chance+troops

Result
45% maximum as of now.

Disscussion
Reasons why Andea shouldn't be otherside of the world but instead be far from war
 * Brazil (Which if I remeber correctly) was given -4 by Guy in the New Rugia. The Distance between New Rugia and Brazil, even with Panama and the Straight of Magellan, is far greater than the distance between Andea and Germany
 * Andea has free use of British Ports in Hispanolia in accordance with the treaty of Pagatonia. This becomes relevent when you consider my next point.
 * Hamburg Got Far From war as apposed to other side of the war during the anti hamburg war when every nearby friendly territory was under invasion. Andea now has Operation of the Panama Canal, meaning the distance from Chan Chan to Germany would be fairly similar to the distance from Kuba to Hamburg. This is further parrelleed when you consider my last point
 * Netherlands got the same location during the Dutch Wars.

I have removed non-nation sections in strength until sides are solidified and clear.  #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:18, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I have removed non-nation sections in strength until sides are solidified and clear. This goes for both sides. Also, location for +15 does not get multiplied. #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:48, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

France at least needs the revolutionary modifier, so I believe with precident that's a 1.2 multiplier for the Coalition.

Further updates will follow.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:12, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

The Poland player (Survivor) just said on chat he's dropping out of the war. Also, what's the 1.2 for?

I am that guy (talk) 23:38, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

As MP said above. Also if Survivor could confirm that in-game, then the algo will be corrected appropriately.

I thought that it doesn't apply if there's three other states that don't get it.

I am that guy (talk) 23:46, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Also, why is Scraw in charge of the Rhine front algo if he is in the war against me? Yeah... definitely a neutral mod there... I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:48, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

The troops numbers are wrong. Germany sent 11.5 million troops to fight on the Rhine Front, yet this algo doesn't even have a spot for German troops numbers. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:49, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Who said Scraw is in charge? He's not even a mod. Also everyone knows that there are errors in the algorithm, but when Edge tried to fix them Guy undid them and threatened to ban him. Fritzmet (talk) 23:56, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

I was on chat when MP told Scraw he was in charge of the algos. And secondly, I was on facebook when both Crim and Sky told Guy that Edge was out of line. I highly doubt Guy threatened to ban Edge, but was most likely relaying the words of Crim and/or Sky. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 23:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Isn't location averaged, like France (next to), Netherlands (next to), and then Andea (pretty sure it other side of the world)?

I am that guy (talk) 01:03, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

Spanish/Brazilian Dominions

 * Location: (9+4.5-3)/3=3.5
 * Tactical: 2+6
 * Strength: 6 [Brazil] + 6 (Spanish Africa) + 6 (Brazilian Africa)
 * Motive: 7+5+3 = 5
 * Morale: +3+5
 * Population: +9+20 [~110 million]
 * Age: 5
 * Troops: 1,000,000/40,000 = 25
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 111.5

German West Africa [Cameroon]

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 6
 * Strength: 6 [Cameroon]
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: -2 +3 = 1
 * Population: +8
 * Troops: 40,000
 * Age: -5
 * Participation: +10
 * Multiple Fronts: (seeing as Germany itself isn't involved, the multiple fronts penalty doesn't apply
 * Total: 50

Discussion
You do know that every vassal gets a -2, and then every vassal after two get and extra -2. Plus, I doubt that vassals can go on an offensive war separately from their liege. I also doubt you could field an army of a million into a country that's mostly jungle. Kameroon would also be able to field a larger army, say around 350 - 450,000

Also, why the hell are you invading? You can get cookie to verify this, but him and I were discussing the decolonization timeframe for German Africa. Basically, everything was to be released by 1955. If you guys really wanted them, I'm sure we could've worked something out, like what we did with Japan over indochina. But seriously, we'll be forced to give up our colonies in less than ten years, so what's the point?

I am that guy (talk) 04:09, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

For the glory of victory of course.

04:19, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

According to the moderators, the rule on the rules page applies; you are allowed to use your entire empire in a world war without the penalty. And I'm only using the older and larger ones anyway.

"I also doubt you could field an army of a million into a country that's mostly jungle."

That makes no sense, don't give me the recycled argument you give Crim each time haha. You may think Brazil, West Africa, and South Africa is "mostly Jungle", but even at a conservative peace-time value of 1% of population, like the Brazil in 2015, in 1945 that's 600,000 men. During OTL WW2 South Africa fielded 334,000 volunteers. With just those two nations alone you're already almost at 1,000,000 men, and that's not even factoring in all the other colonies, which collectively total 40-50% of Africa.

"Plus, I doubt that vassals can go on an offensive war separately from their liege"

Guy, it's not 1400 anymore. Replace "vassal" with dominion and "liege" with ally. I don't see why nations like South Africa can't participate in WW2, it wouldn't be a first.

And if you're not holding on to Cameroon that adamantly as you say, you could always surrender the West African front.

EDIT: Also at max Cameroon is only about 4,000,000 people, and you didn't even control 90% of the nation until this most recent map. I doubt you'd even have the maximum population when you only started to control the nation a few years ago. Also you never mention your colony of Cameroon really, never expanded its military or anything. Would your colony really be so patriot at that point, as to field five, ten, or even twenty percent of its population for a war?

Fritzmet (talk) 05:02, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I can sell it to you on the condition the now largely German-speaking populace is treated fairly, how's that sound? I am that guy (talk) 05:06, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

You have until later today to accept these terms. If you fail to accept in any way, the war will continue, and these terms will be included in the treaty dismantling Germany at the end of the war. Fritzmet (talk) 05:18, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

We'll agree to all portions relating to Africa and indemnities. All portions not related to Africa (Borelia, East Indies, New Rugia) cannot be agreed to, as this was a conflict specifically within Africa. I am that guy (talk) 05:23, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

^^ Agreed. This was an African front, and since Germany was sorely beaten in Africa, you all can take whatever German lands in Africa you want. Emphasis on African land. Any German lands in Borealia, Asia, or New Zealand are not up for grabs. At all. And there's a whole bunch of crap in this treaty that is unagreeable to as well. I was Normandy in PM2. It was great. (talk) 14:44, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

If I may say something, if German West Africa is part of Germany like New Rugia and Cuba, then if it collapses, Germany collapses. of course this only applies to areas that are part of Germany Proper. #PraiseRoosevelt.

West Africa isn't however, it's all colonies. I am that guy (talk) 18:15, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Vassal spam is still in effect, and it's clear that you should include it here.

"This is not your grave  but you are welcome in it. " 23:14, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Brazil

 * Location: -4*.75 Can't find Brazlian Polynesia and Samoa on the map so not doing this for now
 * Tactical: 2 (Suprise attack is too iffy to give.)
 * Strength: 6 [Brazil] + 6 [Amazonas] +  6 [Guiana, No idea why this was +7 in the offical algo] + 6 [Polynesia] + 6 [Samoa]  (couldn't find where Japan Declared war. if they are bound by treaty to do so then please inform me) +6 (Emeraldie. Emeraldie is techniqully bombing kuba but seeing as nothing else is happening there, safe to say this is the only front to add them too) +6 (Brazilian Africa. I object to lumping colonial empires into one nation but what ever) +4.5 (Andea) +5 (Let me Explain something Nate Explained to me: Barring the Suez Canal, I controll European Acsess to the Pacfic. South Africa is Andean and Brazlian. Straights of magellean are mine, and panama is mine/Emeraldies. Unless Germany is somehow teleporting ships here, naval dominance is out of the question for Germany. (Naval Dominance)+3 (Better Military in terms of Man Power)+3 (Larger Economy. Brazil has a smaller eco than Andea, but would still be able to, with Emeraldie and Guyana involved and Support from Andea, out do the German Eco)+3 (Fully moblized. Only a fool would not be fully moblized by now)
 * Motive: 7+5+3+3+3+3+3=3.8
 * Morale: +3*7/7=3
 * Population: +8 [~80 million] )(Kinda low balling Emeraldie's population, but 20 million was a stretch IMO)
 * Age: 0 for the first 5 and Brazlian Africa (AFAIK) and +5 for Emeraldie, so 5/6, or .83
 * Troops: 500,000/300,000 = 1.66 (Probably way higher for Allies seeing as this war is still developing)
 * Participation: +10
 * Multiple Fronts: -2 (?)
 * Total: 84.79

New Rugia

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 6+6+4
 * Strength: 6+3 (Order of events from my POV. 1. France Decalares War. 2. Andea Declares, enacts Cuzco-Santa Cruz accords and asks Brazil to declare war. 3. Brazilain suprise attack in Africa 4. New Rugia. Areas of Germany Proper would have been moblized after part 2 at the latest. (Fully Moblized)
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: +3 = 3-5 (same as above)
 * Population: +8 +2 [~85 million]
 * Troops: 0
 * Age: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Multiple fronts: -15 (New Rugia is part of Germany proper. They can't have it both ways)
 * Total: 50+Chance

Discussion
I am going to call the implausablity of Germany mantaining 300,000 men. Consider the following:
 * there are 5 main ways a European State Can Acsess the Pacfic Ocean/Indian Ocean
 * Panama Canal
 * Straights of Magellan
 * Around Africa
 * Suez Canal
 * Around South America
 * Andea controls 4 of the 5. So Germany is either trying to out muscle the Andean and Brazilian and Emereldie navies or they are shipping 100% of their supplies through the suez
 * Fighting in Venice, the only med port Germany owns, would prevent heavy shipping to the med and Suez
 * Other Germany ships couldn't enter the med unless they out fought Spain's navy and attacked Gibraltar, which would have to be another front in some way.
 * So right now, Germany is having minimal shipping to the Med Sea, molested by an invasion of Venice and various naval powers
 * So with these in mind, New Rugia has to be fighting using Local Industry and Supplies on the island. When have you heard of an Massivly industrial New Zealand?
 * Even assuming we accept Guy's "Germany was aware of New Rugia's isolation", which is a 100% fair response, Does New Rugia have the supplies to keep fighting, well lets continue
 * So New Rugia is 100% moblized. all 300,000 troops are fighting, all the men are active. Now it's a war. Stockpiles are being bombed. Bases are under attack. Supplies are being expanded to continue fighting. New Rugia's isolation would mean that there would be a fair stockpile, but New Rugia would run out. Without the Industrial Support from home, New Rugia would run out of supplies. Are they using the bones of their Enemies to fashion bows and arrows to continue fighting? I would assume no but that would be alpha as fuck. So New Rugians are either using their fists to fight and capture enemy supplies (Not a viable war strat btw) or they are Surrendering. Even if the Allies lose this Front, as long as they keep attacking it over and over again, and the war continues as it is now in all fronts, New Rugia would have to surrender within a few years or face extinction. No matter how Nationalistic they are, it makes no sense to fight a war with no Bullets. Because New Rugia is part of Germany Proper, is a New Rugian Surrender the same as a German Surrender? If Germany is going to use it's homeland as the main actor in the war, then a New Rugian Collapse is a German Collapse. This is Something that Guy CONCEDED during the Anti Hamburg war.

#PraiseRoosevelt. 14:36, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

You forget that not only has New Rugia been settled by non-Moari for a hundred years more than otl, but it's also a constituent state of Germany, and as such has a lot more troops and ships stationed there as part of an old program to "protect German citizens wherever in the world". I am that guy (talk) 16:04, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

1. You get the "far from war zone" because your nearest base is, well, far way.

2. No surprise bonus, after your invasion of the African colonies, you can't claim that.

3. Remember that New Rugia is a constituent territory of Germany, so the population of Germany as a whole is counted. Seeing as Germany has more than 65 million, that gives us the larger population.

4. Since New Rugia is a constituent territory, more military power is stationed in New Rugia than in colonies like Kameroon. Part of the driving force is that the isolation of New Rugia is recognized, so it has a large on-site military force.

5. Defenders advantage + Amphibious assault + attacked territory is island.

6. Germany is a democratic supporting nation, so it doesn't get the non-democratic penalty.

7. Again, Germany has a larger population.

8. Multiple fronts is self explanatory I am that guy (talk) 16:51, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

My nearest naval base is in New Zealand.

There is still a surprise bonus. After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor places like the Philippines were still taken by surprise, plus these attacks happened at the same time.

Number three is a well documented bullshit loophole lol.

Although it's kind of ironic that more isolated would equal more military presence (see the Falkland Islands War), I can acknowledge that New Rugia has a greater population probably than OTL, but not something crazy.

Germany has a monarchy. Also if you get democratic, by that logic so does all the nations on my side.

Fritzmet (talk) 16:33, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

You also specifically said in your post that this pacific attack happened after the African front. And monarchies can have democratic-supporting government, which is what Germany is. And about half of Germany's states are true republics. I am that guy (talk) 16:55, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say it happened after. Albeit I wrote it after the other int he turn, but they happened at the same time. Also half your edits aren't even right, Edge is saying as much in chat. And how did you get Sky who hasn't been here in days, and Crim of all people, to approve this? Fritzmet (talk) 16:57, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

The location not only needs to be averaged, but adjusted for the fact that I am attacking from OTL New Zealand, and Germany if participating is attacking from Europe.

Brazil should still have the surprise bonus, since the attacks were at the same time, and how exactly would New Rugia even expect an attack from Brazil.

I just checked the age of the nations would be +5 for Brazil and -3 for Germany.

Fine I'll boost the troop numbers, I was using basically only Pacific Islanders for myself.

Add the democratic bonuses to Brazil, if that's what Guy ants.

Fritzmet (talk) 17:08, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

From where in New Zealand are you attacking from? Every piece of land up until Australia is owned by either myself or Scandinavia. I am that guy (talk) 17:10, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I own some islands in the Pacific off the coast of New Zealand that are owned by New Zealand in OTL. Fritzmet (talk) 17:13, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, no. Every island off the coast until Australia or the Solomons are owned by either myself or Scandinavia, and have been for well over a century by this point. I am that guy (talk) 17:15, August 3, 2015 (UTC).

Was told to do the following by Fritz:
 * Basically in the Cameroon algo remove Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe. Add Mbandaka, Centro-Africana, Congo, and Tanzânia. Then add all the ones you removed from Cameroon and add to New Rugia. And then change 100,000 soldiers to 3,500,000 also add 30 million to my side in population in New Rugia

Verify (and argue) with him. #PraiseRoosevelt. 17:43, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Same as the rhine, I have removed the Non-Nation sections of strengh until sides are clearer, which should be soon. #PraiseRoosevelt.

How does New Rugia have a population of over 80 million? New Zealand has a population of 4 million in 2015 OTL.Nathan1123 (talk) 18:26, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Since New Rugia is a constituent part of Germany, like Prussia or Hamburg, Germany's total population is counted. I am that guy (talk) 18:38, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

But as the moderators on chat already noted that loophole is henceforth banned, for the same reason why you couldn't invade Brazilian Antarctica and all forty of its citizens, only for me to claim you are attacking 100 million people. It just doesn't make practical sense.

Guy, I assume you are fighting so adamantly in this front because you believe that since New Rugia is a state of Germany, if I win I topple Germany. But I am telling you right now, I do not intend that at all. Whatever the outcome of this front, you have my word that it does not mean Germany proper is toppled, only New Rugia itself. So with that said please end this edit warring and such, and just let Edge fix the algorithm.

Again, even though New Rugia is a state of Germany, I forfeit my right to topple Germany proper with this algorithm. That said let Edge edit it, he actually fixed things that were wrong. Fritzmet (talk) 20:08, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

I would just like to point out the implausibility of Germany (specifically Bavaria) getting so many troops all the way to New Zealand when Bavaria proper is being invaded by Lombardy. Surely the entire military wouldn't abandon Venezia to save some island half-way around the world. Nathan1123 (talk) 21:36, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Spanish East Indies

 * Location: 4*1.125-4*0.625=1
 * Tactical: 2+6
 * Strength: 3 (M) [East Indies] + 7 [Guiana] + 6 (Brazilian Pacific)
 * Motive: 3+3=3
 * Morale: +3+5
 * Population: +9+20 [~13 million]
 * Age: 0
 * Troops: 700,000/4,000 = 175
 * Participation: +10
 * Multiple Fronts: -2
 * Total: 248

Brunei

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 5+6+4+8
 * Strength: 6 [New Rugia]
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: -2 +3 = 1
 * Population: +5 [~45,000]
 * Troops: 4,000
 * Age: 0
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 69

Lombardy

 * Location: 9-6/2=1.5
 * Tactical: 2+6
 * Strength: 6 [Lombardy] + 6 [Brazil] +4.5 (Andea) +3 (Moblized. See above) (Economies on par i would say.To say either way would be to over or under estiamte one nation or the others)+3 (More men)
 * Motive: 7+5=6
 * Morale: +3+5
 * Population: +9+2 [125 million]
 * Age: 5
 * Chance:
 * Troops: 6,000,000/500,000 = 12 ( I doubt Brazil and lombardy could field 5,950,000 men if they want to keep numbers high else where, but I will wait and hear Scar and Fritz out)
 * Participation: +10
 * Multiple Fronts: -7 (why -7?)
 * Total:69

Germany

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 5
 * Strength: 6 [Germany]  (No Naval Dominace to either side. As stated, but not contested. Brazilain Navy~Andean Navy~Spanish Navy~ German Navy, I am assuming Lombardy has little to no naval capablites, meaning they are on par for the moment) +3 (Moblized)
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: +3-5=-2
 * Population: +8
 * Chance:
 * Troops: 0
 * Age: 0
 * Multiple Fronts: -10
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 44

Slavic League and Wendish Union

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 2+6
 * Strength: 6 [Poland] + 6 [Lithuania] + 6 [Kashubia] + 6 [Carpathia]
 * Motive: 6
 * Morale: +3+5
 * Population: +8
 * Age: 5
 * Chance:
 * Troops: 1,500,000/250,000 = 6
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 102

Germany

 * Location: 15
 * Tactical: 6
 * Strength: 6 [Germany]
 * Motive: +9
 * Morale: 3
 * Population: +8+2
 * Chance:
 * Troops: 250,000
 * Age: -5
 * Multiple Fronts: -12
 * Participation: +10
 * Total: 42

Discussion
What the actual fuck? How the hell did the Wendish Union do anything without Croatia's permission. This'd be a massive treaty breaking. I'm removing Slovakia and Sorbia from the algo since Croatia still leads the Slavic League and also the Wendish Union. I'm also probably soon going to be adding myself to Germany's side since this is an abomination of implausogasms. Kashubia and Poland would quite probably not be working together even if they broke away from the Wendish Union since they both have to fight for power in Poland (region).

Just going to point out Sky that if you "add" yourself to Germany's side, then there will be 0 people capable of doing the algos because every active mod will have a stake in the war. #PraiseRoosevelt.

Edge, even if Sky intervened, I doubt the result of this war may change. Just look at it now..

Borealia, Algonquia, Reme Emeraldie, Brazil, Andea, Britannia, Spain, Morocco, Netherlands, France, Lombardy, Roman Empire, Vlachia, Transylvania, Assyria, Georgia, Tartary, Ethiopia, Carpathia, Poland, Lithuania, Kashubia, Russia, The Republic, China and Australia vs India, Germany and the Caliphate.

And this list doesn't include the 10-15 African vassal spam and his "+6 Polynesia, +6 Samoa" Island spam that Brazil has got.

It is a fair war, isn't it? We can't have PvP Wars here unless we have a 9:1 ratio between nations on each side. God bless these gangbang wars.

World War II complaints
I think it's fairly obvious that algo is sadly incomplete. Only half of the fronts are listed (Lombardy, etc.), and those fronts that are listed only have half the belligerents (Japan and Emereldie in New Rugia, Britannia in the Rhine, etc.). Not to mention several implausibilities created by exaggerated populations and military strength on both sides. Therefore, I am creating this section to list complaints only. This is not the place to defend the way the algorithm currently is, but a place to simply list issues not yet addressed without any debate or discussion. I think this is a good idea, but as I'm not a mod, feel free to delete this if I'm stepping out of line. Nathan1123 (talk) 02:29, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Fronts Missing/Incomplete

 * The New Rugia front is missing several nations. Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe should be added as leaders (industry level six).
 * Nearly every front is incomplete because of mistakes.
 * Sudafrica, Boreliea, and Algonquia need to be added in various degrees to the Rhine. Algonquia also needs to be added to India
 * Lombardy. idiots. or is venice a freebee?
 * Britannia should be added to the Rhine
 * Poland opens a Prussian front?
 * Borealian/Spanish invasion of India isn't even complete
 * Japan + vassals? should be added to New Rugia
 * Eastern front: Poland, Silesia, Romania?, Lithuania?
 * Emereldie should be added to New Rugia
 * "The Republic" sending mercenaries to attack India

Issues within Fronts

 * The New Rugia front should have 3,500,000 soldiers on the Brazil side (for now). Since it is essentially functioning as the Pacific Front at large, I am using that amount for now, since that's about the amount of Americans in the OTL Pacific War.
 * Porto Natal, Suazilândia, Nyasalândia, Rodésia, Solumbuso, and Zimbabwe aren't supposed to be in the West Africa front, but rather Mbandaka, Centro-Africana, Congo, Sao Tome, Walvis Bay, and Tanzânia should be added. The West African front is done anyway, this is just an example of a naming error.
 * Every front with Brazil participating should have a population of 90 million from Brazil. So the West African front should be at 115 million, and the New Rugia and Brunei front updated.
 * Brazil's age in the New Rugia front should be a 5, whereas New Rugia's is -5 if alone.
 * The New Rugia front should have a surprise modifier to Brazil's side. These attacks took place at the same time, plus how would New Zealand anticipate an attack from Brazil of all places.
 * The locations of the New Rugia front are wrong. Brazil should have a +8 at least, since it is invading from OTL New Zealand. Additionally the other nations in the war are Pacific nations only a few hundred miles away.
 * The population of New Rugia is at most 600,000, even when accounting for Germany's extra immigration. As such it's very implausible for it to raise half its population for war. It's even more implausible for Germany to send soldiers to New Rugia, not when Germany itself is at threat. That would be like France sending a large portion of its force from the border with Germany to defend Vietnam during WW2.

There are multiple mistakes with the algorithm involving the India. minorities to revolt. So yes, my existence is at threat and I could possibly be wiped out. ~ Rimp, I think
 * The Commonwealth of Borealia introduced its navy into the Indian Ocean on Turn 1944, and the Indians immediately responded by expelling Borealian Scientists on the Andaman Islands. Naturally, this heightened tensions between India and Borealia, and with the Borealians adamant on keeping their navy in the Indian Ocean, war was expected. Hence, the Borealian Invasion would in no case or scenario be a surprise attack and the +6 should be removed since the crisis was taking place prior to the Invasion.
 * The Commonwealth of Borealia and the Empire of Spain do not share any border with India. The only possible way for them to invade me is through an Amphibious Landing which leads one to question why India did not receive "Amphibious Landing: Defenders +6" bonus. In case of Spain, their 1948 turn even explicitly mentions how they establish beachheads on Southern India.
 * The Geography of India is diverse and varies from area to area. It would only be logical to take into account the geography of the area being invaded. That leads to the question as to why India did not receive "Home is jungle/tropical: Defenders +8" despite the fact that Southern India is mostly a tropical zone with tropical moist forests throughout the coast.
 * I would like to question why Spain is being allowed to use 'vassals' in this war whilst I was told by SkyGreen24 to annex all of my vassals.
 * The Indian economy is much larger and stronger than that of Spain. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to discard their "Asians can't be stronger than Europeans" ideology and look into History. Even as late as 1700s in otl, the Indian economy had a 24.4% share of world income. In 1700, India was in a major war with wars between the Mughals and Marathas and states like Deccan and Bengal attempting independence. Then, when we look into atl, Spain never recovered from the War of the Grand Coalition. In fact, Spain remained disunited till the Mid-19th Century when it was united by the Catalan minority. In comparison, India remained united almost throughout the Game with India being in a balkanised state only from 1790 - 1870. Moreover, when we take into account the raw products produced by India, the hegemony of India over jute and muslin trade, then it isn't hard to understand that the Spanish economy cannot even compare with that of India.
 * The Motive of India would be "Defending Core/heartland from possibly fatal attack +9". It's not difficult to realise that giving me +5 was just a cheap move to increase the score difference. Why should India receive +9? I'll explain. The Indian Coast is being blockaded by the Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire and the Commonwealth of Borealia, the Empire of Japan has outright refused to help, the Caliphate has been conquered by the Roman Empire which has practically led to the dismemberment of the Pact, the Republic of China has declared war upon India, the Algonquian Sachemate has sent supplies and a military force to fight in India, the Commonwealth of Borealia and Spanish Empire have invaded India with the latter openly asking the
 * In Recent Wars, India would receive only -4 not -6. Should be fixed in Spanish and Borealian fronts.

Amphibious I always understood to mean by both land and sea, ie one part invading by land and one part invading by sea. The whole invasion is by sea. Also, you're not defending core/heartland, you're defending Burma and the south, neither of which is your core/heartland. As for economy, I assumed the combined economy of all participating nations would outweigh the Indian economy by itself. I don't know anything about that vassals stuff.

18:36, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
I am that guy (talk) 15:50, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * I find it extremely implausible for Brazil's African colonies to be able to send an expeditionary force halfway around the world to the far side of the Pacific, especially when all but two are landlocked.
 * Again, you even said in your post that the New Rugian attack took place after the end of the African invasion, due to "breakdown of negotiations", so you've lost the element of surprise.
 * You're not invading from New Zealand, because you own no land in New Zealand. I told you before, every price of island around New Zealand up until Australia or the Solomons has been owned by either Hamburg or Scandinavia for at least a century now. As a result, that means you get "far from warzone". You say "only" a few hundred miles, but you seem to forget that that's hundreds of miles across empty ocean.
 * The population should be the entirety of Germany, because whenever the players main nation is involved, the main nations' population is used, even if it's in the Pacific. Everyone to Britannia, France, Spain, even Croatia have used the total population going to war in the Pacific. When Crim and I had a front of the 1790-1795 war going on in the New Zealand islands, guess what, we used our total populations, even though back then they were only colonies.

In OTL WW1 and WW2 African countries sent forces overseas, and many of those were landlocked too.

I didn't say that they attacks took place after, and despite your emphasis, the word "after" does not appear in that section of the post.

The Treaty of Midway, Treaty of Porto Vila, and various other treaties establish that Kermadec, New Zealand; Chatham, New Zealand; Norfolk, Australia, and various other territories are owned by Brazil or her allies in this war against you. So we are invading from parts of OTL New Zealand and Australia.

"every price of island around New Zealand up until Australia or the Solomons has been owned by either Hamburg or Scandinavia"

That is completely false, unless you are declaring that most of the Borealian colonies; Fiji, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna, Emeraldie Tonga, Brazilian Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Samoa, etc are now owned by Scandinavia.

"You say "only" a few hundred miles, but you seem to forget that that's hundreds of miles across empty ocean."

Exactly, it's across empty ocean, making it easy to travel across by ship. Not to mention that countries in WW2 traveled thousands of miles more than this. And not to mention that the distance from my main colony to New Zealand is the distance from southern New Zealand to northern New Zealand. By your logic you should have a hard time traveling from Stewart Island in the south to Wellington.

"The population should be the entirety of Germany, because whenever the players main nation is involved, the main nations' population is used, even if it's in the Pacific."

Yeah but the point is it's implausible for Germany to get involved. As I said above it would make no sense for France to abandon the war against Germany in OTL to defend Vietnam. It would make no sense for Britain to abandon the British Isles to defend Hong Kong, etc. And if we do allow that, it would be nice if you'd allow Brazil to do the same; right now you have it so that rule only applies to you.

Also isn't it a bit ironic that you're insisting South Africa can't assist in the Pacific Front, but Germany proper can?

Fritzmet (talk) 16:41, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Without a doubt, Germany should not have naval superioriety on either New Rugia or the Rhine. the Rhine, imho, should not have naval superiorety to either side seeing as the bulk of the fighting is happening inland, but I digress. Even if it will have it, it should be for the allies for the following reasons: #PraiseRoosevelt.
 * Andea has been expanding her navy since independece, so her navy isn't behind Germany by that much (if at all)
 * Girbaltar would be closed to Germany, meaning the only way out of the med would be through the Suez
 * Venice is being invaded, one of Bavaria major ports
 * German navy is spread around the world. Even if Andea and Brazil's navies aren't enough to match the German Navy on their own (unlikely, but for the sake of argument lets say they can't), when Germany is fighting all across the world, the German navy would be spread so thin that it would be enough for Andea and Brazil to have Naval Superioriety

To add on after discussing in chat, it's basically impossible for Germany to aid New Rugia in any way whatsoever. Germany is completely blockaded in Europe; France, Netherlands, Britain, and Andea (which alone may have a fleet comparable to Germany) is blockading the North Sea, Spain controls Gibraltar, Venice is being seized, and Guy already surrendered in Africa. So there's now way Germany could send troops to New Zealand, nor is it plausible for them to do so when Germany proper is under siege. Fritzmet (talk) 18:07, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

I own Gibraltar and Malacca. Britannia, France, and the Netherlands are all in open conflict with you. Lombardy is attacking your Mediterranean coastline. Good luck getting anywhere.

18:03, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

First of all Scraw, Britannia isn't at war with us, and Bavaria and Hamburg have plenty of Northern ports that we can use. Scandinavia is still firendly with us, so we can certainly use their own ports for safe usage. Also, Britannia hasn't posted in ages and hasn't declared any war on us, so that means Britannian waters are safe for us too. So yeah, Scraw, we can certainly send troops to New Rugia. - Cookie

Britannia is supposed to have declared war, but regardless you're still fairly blockaded without them. Scandinavia may be friendly with you, but there's a difference between being friendly, and actively breaking your neutrality and letting your troops march all over their borders. Also Scandinavia doesn't exactly get you much closer. The German surrender/withdraw in Africa particularly leaves the Atlantic Ocean practically unusable. And regardless it's still implausible to send troops from Germany proper when Germany is under attack itself. Fritzmet (talk) 19:29, August 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, for one, I'm sure Germany's Mediterranean squadrons can defeat the Lombard fleet. Anyone who wishes to challenge that may do so.


 * As for Germany's fleet itself, (provided Crim or Mp hasn't boosted their fleet numbers over time) it is probably the largest and most advanced fleet. There's definitely around 35 (post-WWI) battleships and battlecruisers, along with eight carriers. It was naval building programs that helped stave off the worst of the Depression. Yes, initially the fleet would've been dispersed, but as the war dragged on, those in unthreatened areas, or those who disengaged from areas under attack (like Borneo or Africa) would concentrate in areas that are under attack, such as Germany proper or New Rugia, thereby helping attain naval superiority.


 * Again, New Rugia is a part of Germany, not a separate entity. You also have to remember that Europeans have been settled there for a hundred years earlier than otl. Its population on its own would probably be around 1.5 million by this time. And given that the local economy would go to hell anyway in a situation like this, emergency conscription could add a lot more regular troops, not including Home Guard-like units of women, or those too old or too young for the regular army. You also should remember that every person there, the ethnic Germans and the native Maori alike, would be fighting for their homes against invaders.


 * Fritz, no way in hell you own any island within five hundred miles of New Rugia (Norfolk Island is something like over a thousand miles away from New Zealand). I specifically said when I was colonizing the area that all islands owned by New Zealand otl are incorporated into New Rugia. The Midway treaty was drafted whilst I was away working at summer camp, with access to Internet few and far between, so I wasn't able to inform you guys then.


 * As I've said several time before, New Rugia is a part of Germany, so it is involved one way or another. Therefore, Germany's entire population is counted, as it has been in every war in the pacific involving any European country, even when they had no land around.

I am that guy (talk) 20:04, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

So your navy is basically on par with Andea, Brazil, and Spain. Good luck against all of them at once and more.

New Rugia may technically be a part of Germany, but I think it's fairly obvious that for simplicity's sake when people in this discussion say Germany they are talking about Germany proper. And it's irrelevant anyway since the mods already said that loophole is banned. It makes zero sense for an attack on an island in the Pacific to mean attacking all of Germany, nor does it make any sense that toppling an island in the Pacific topples all of Germany. It works both ways, and was banned.

Also it's fairly well agreed upon on the official map that you don't own those particular islands. It wouldn't be the first time a nation claimed an area but then someone else colonized it. And regardless there's still a ton more just north that are indisputably owned by Brazil and its allies.

And regardless you said it was implausible for the Pacific states to travel "hundreds of miles of empty ocean", even though if the ocean is unprotected that should be really easy; by your own logic Japan couldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor because of all the ocean in between, and you claimed South Africa couldn't travel to New Zealand, but then you claim Germany can easily travel to New Zealand. Germany is on the other side of the planet.

Not to mention that Germany wouldn't send any forces anyway, because Germany itself is under siege. Fritzmet (talk) 20:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Which mods banned it? Scraw and Edge?

Thing is, they simply weren't claimed, some of them had settlers on them, they were incorporated into New Rugia as municipalities or part of municipalities.

You also seem to be forgeting about one small matter: logistics. You claim to be landing 3.5 million troops, the same number as what the United States (at this point in history, with twice your population) deployed to the Pacific during the entirety of WWII. On average, troopships carry 550 troops plus their equipment and supplies. In order to drop them all off at once, you would need over 6,300 troopships. No navy on earth has enough ships to properly escort them, so talk about a turkey shoot for subs and fighters. And that doesn't even mention how they're all going to deploy their troops coming landing time. If you're taking them in waves, with weeks between landings, you would have to detach ships to escort them back, or else subs pick off the unprotected troopships. But every ship you detach takes it away from the front, meaning any naval advantage would shrink with it. Put simply, landing 3.5 million troops on a single island is impossible.

I am that guy (talk) 21:22, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

If New Rugia can be part of Germany, then Indonesia and West Africa can be a part of Spain. This essentially doubles my population and puts me above you giving me a population score of +10.

21:35, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

You could, but you'd need a minimum population of 425 million in order to get a +10 score.

I am that guy (talk) 21:46, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

8 digit population + 2 bonus = 10

What are you talking about?

21:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Guy the number of soldiers is the number of the entire Pacific Front during the entire war, which is being represented here by the New Rugia algo. And by that argument, how do you plan to ship your soldiers there? If you're going to give me a hard time about the logistics of moving an army, why not look at your own troop movements. They make even less sense.

Also I should mention that you are making the argument that you weren't here for Midway and it therefore shouldn't be valid, meanwhile are declaring that Germany is in the Fourth Treaty of Chan Chan, even though Edge wasn't there for that. Fritzmet (talk) 22:01, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

@Fritz, I told you before, the troops are already there. All units have a New Rugian deployment before being rotated back to Germany, same with Kuba. Those 300,000 are those that happened to be stationed there at the time of your invasion. Also, I'm not saying the Treaty of Midway isn't valid, you can make claims to islands all you want. It's just that those islands have been claimed, settled, and politically incorporated long before you made those claims

@Scraw, my bad, I thought you were talking just about the population bonus.

I am that guy (talk) 22:10, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

If Sky isn't back and Mp hasn't done these by tommorow, I am doing the algos. At the rate we are going we will be in the Space Race by the end of this war. #PraiseRoosevelt.

Just pointing out, as Rimp and Sky agreed during the Anti-Hamburg War, Location between Kuba, Belize, and Hamburg was averaged. So intstead of +15, they got +5.75 in Kuba. I belive the same train of thought would apply here, Meaning location is still wrong on most of the fronts. #PraiseRoosevelt.

List of Nations that need to be added to various fronts
Sky wanted it

New Rugia

 * Emeraldie
 * Andea (Military Support)
 * A ton of Brazilian Colonies are sending men and Supporting, which is at least M if not L, or possibly (MV)/(LV)
 * Japan and Vassals

Rhine

 * Brittania and Vassals/Colonies (I am assuming)
 * Sudafrica is Sending men (M)
 * Boreliea is Sending Supplies (S)
 * Algonquia is sending supplies (S)

Lombardy

 * Andea (M)

Indian
New Bruswick There are more mistakes within the fronts than just missing nations, but that's all I have the energy for tonight. #PraiseRoosevelt. 05:40, August 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * Algonquia (M)
 * Caliphate (??? if it exists still) (L)
 * China (i don't know)
 * "The Republic?" (Don't know what it is) (M)
 * Reme (L)

There's already a list but ok Nathan1123 (talk) 14:37, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Republic of Britannia
Total: 98.5
 * Location: 4*1.125 = +4.5
 * Tactical Advantage: +2 [Invaders Advantage] +6 [Surprise Attack] = +10
 * Strength: +6 [Britannia] +5 [Naval Dominance] +5 [Much Larger Economy] +3 [Better Military] +3 [Fully Mobilized] = +22
 * Motive: +3 [Economic]
 * Morale: +3 [Democratic] +5 [High Morale] = +8
 * Chance: +9
 * Edits: 14
 * UTC (07:30): 0*7*3*0 = 21
 * (14/21)*pi: 2.0943
 * Population: +9 [Population] +20 [10 Times Larger Population] = +29
 * Nation Age: +5 [Mature Nation]
 * Recent Wars: +0
 * Number of Troops: 60,000/7,500 = +8
 * Participation: +10

Kingdom of Mali
Total: 53
 * Location: +15
 * Tactical Advantage: +5 [Defenders Advantage] +5 [Amphibious Landing] +6 [Desert] = +16
 * Strength: +6 [Mali]
 * Motive: +9 [Fatal Attack]
 * Morale: -2 [Non-Democratic] -5 [Low Morale] = -7
 * Chance: +4
 * Edits: 14
 * UTC (07:30): 0*7*3*0 = 21
 * (14/21)*pi: 2.0943
 * Population: +7
 * Nation Age: -5 [Young Nation]
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Number of Troops: 7,500/60,000 = +0
 * Participation: +10

Result
(98.5/(98.5+53))*2-1 = 30.00

(30.00*(1-1/(2*2)) = 22.5

22.5% in a two years.

Discussion
Can anyone complete the algorithm for me? Qarth (talk) 06:02, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

I've put the British troops at 60,000. If you want to increase it, then just edit the algo. Judging by your turns, you ended the war on Turn 1952 so I am keeping the results are currently for two years.

Leaving
I'm leaving the game. Awesome history 28 (talk) 16:12, August 17, 2015 (UTC)

And as an FYI which I should of posted last February when I said I'd have come back by, I have also left the game & wiki. Not that it matters now as it seems the Cherokee have been taken over by some huge nation now. What has happened to my Cherokee since I left anyways? Hope you are all well! VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 19:43, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

It got Reme'd Crim de la Crème 22:17, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

What does that mean? VonGlusenburg (talk to Von!) 20:26, September 2, 2015 (UTC)

Going on Vacation
Could someone post for me, I come back on wensday thanks. - Scarlet Outlaw

Tartary
Total: 99.5
 * Location: 8.5
 * Tactical Advantage: 2+6
 * Strength: 5+5+5+3+3
 * Motive: 7
 * Morale: +8
 * Chance: 6
 * Edits: 8845
 * UTC (19:37) = 1*9*4*4= 144
 * 8845/144 * pi = 192.962
 * Nation Age: 5
 * Population: 8+20
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 400,000/100,000=3
 * Theaters of War:
 * Concurrent Wars:
 * Recent Wars:

Mongolia
Total: 39
 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 5
 * Strength: 5
 * Motive: 9
 * Morale -2
 * Chance: 2
 * Edits: 8845
 * UTC (19:37) = 1*9*4*4= 144
 * 8845/144 * pi = 192.962
 * Nation Age: -0
 * Population: 7
 * Participation: +10
 * Recent Wars: -2
 * Troops strength: 0
 * Theaters of War:
 * Concurrent Wars:

Result
(99.5/(99.5+39))*2-1= .4368 = .3688

Toppled in 3 years.

British Isles

 * Aileach (PU with Tyrone)
 * Connaught --LightningLynx89 (talk) 00:47, September 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Desmond
 * Kingdom of England* - Scraw 05:40, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Principality of Wales
 * Leinster
 * Meath
 * Uriel
 * Kingdom of Scotland (About to revolt)* - Upvote the best person
 * Thumond
 * Ulster

Scandinavia

 * Kingdom of Sweden - Sithlent (talk) 15:25, September 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Denmark
 * kingdom of Norway-Tao64
 * Iceland-Toa
 * Greenland-Toa
 * Faroe Islands-Toa
 * Isle of Man-Toa
 * Northern Isles -Toa

Western Europe

 * Kingdom of Aragon* (At war with Naples) - There is a god... And his name is FIRES
 * Kingdom of Castille* - Saturn120 11:56, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of France* - -Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 03:09, September 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Duchy of Brittany -
 * Duchy of Burgundy -
 * Duchy of Normandy -
 * County of Flanders -
 * County of Auvergne -
 * Kingdom of Granada -
 * Duchy of Guyenne (English) -
 * Kingdom of Majorca -
 * Kingdom of Navarra -
 * Kingdom of Portugal* - Sine
 * Duchy of Aquitaine -

Italy & Southern Europe

 * Giudicato di Arboréa -
 * Duchy of Urbino -
 * Republic of Arezzo -
 * Lordship of Este -
 * Republic of Florence -
 * Republic of Genoa (At war with Venice)* -
 * Corsica
 * Visconti of Milan - Spartian300 (talk) 08:23, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Marquisate of Montferrat -
 * Kingdom of Naples (At war with Sicily)* - Cookiedamage (talk) 18:07, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Papal States* - KawaiiKame (talk) 23:49, September 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Republic of Pisa* -
 * Kingdom of Sicily (At war with Naples) - (WILD seems to be playing as Champa; Sicily is open now)
 * Republic of Sienna -
 * County of Savoy -
 * Republic of Venice- (At war with Genoa)* - Crim de la Crème 02:20, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Candia
 * County of Vienne -

Central Europe/Holy Roman Empire
Literally any other HRE state is fair game. Will post list tomorrow.
 * Duchy of Austria*
 * Duchy of Bavaria*
 * County of Luxembourg- User:I am that guy
 * County of Tyrol - Tr0llis (talk)
 * Kingdom of Bohemia - Scarlet Outlaw
 * Kingdom of Arles
 * County of Bar
 * March Electorate of Brandenburg -  Flippedlion.png NicDonalds, Beginning Editor  Talk Lionsymbol.png

Eastern Europe
00:29, September 6, 2015 (UTC)'''
 * Duchy of Athens - Willster22 (User talk:Willster22)
 * Kingdom of Bulgaria Revolution 9
 * Grand Duchy of Chernigov
 * Grand Duchy of Ryazan
 * Eastern Roman Empire*  - Roman-spqr-flag.png Consul Ioshua'''  (Talk) SPQR_EMBLEM.jpg
 * Kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia
 * Golden Horde (I hope you like mod events)* -            Reichsadler_der_Deutsches_Reich_(1933–1945).svg     The night is dark   and full of terrors   
 * Kingdom of Hungary* - Wrto12 (talk) 06:03, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Principality of Kiev
 * Kingdom of Lithuania Dreamcaster1 (talk) 20:52, September 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Grand Duchy of Moscow Awesome history 28 (talk) 16:46, September 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Moldavia  Andreas.martonosy (asked me to post for him)
 * Nogai Khanate
 * Republic of Novgorod
 * Kingdom of Poland
 * Republic of Pskov
 * Kingdom of Raska
 * Kingdom of Riga
 * Teutonic Knights Kirbs01 (talk) 18:12, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Grand Duchy of Vladmir-Suzdal
 * Knights Templar (Exiled on Cyprus):
 * Knights Hospitaller (Exiled on Cyprus): Callumthered (talk) 23:37, September 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Serbia - Toby2: THEY CALL ME Mr. Awesome!!!
 * Kingdom of Albania
 * Banate of Bosnia: Yank 22:32, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

Levant & Arabia

 * Il-Khanate* With Blood and Iron (talk) 02:11, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Armenian Kingdom of Cilia -
 * Sultanate of Oman -  FP ( Hand of the Imp ) 19:48, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sultanate of Yemen
 * Sultanate of Rum - Bozistanball
 * Kingdom of Trebizond
 * Kingdom of Armenia
 * Kingdom of Georgia
 * Kingdom of Kastamonu
 * Principality of Hamamshen

India

 * Delhi Sultanate - Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 18:39, September 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * Zamorin of Calicut
 * Kingdom of Gujarat
 * Kingdom of Hoysalas
 * Kingdom of Kakatiyas
 * Kingdom of Paramaras
 * Kingdom of Pandyas
 * Kingdom of Yadavas
 * Kingdom of the Eastern Ganges
 * Kingdom of Chandellas

Central Asia

 * Chagatai Khanate*

East Asia

 * Kingdom of Arakan
 * Ahom Kingdom -
 * Kachari Kingdom -
 * Chutiya Kingdom -
 * Lan Na -
 * Deva Dynasty (Bengal) -
 * Kingdom of Champa Kaori, The New Tokyo Native (talk) 00:32, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Dai Viet- Jbwncster (talk) 00:58, September 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Shogunate of Japan* User:Seiga Miyako
 * Khmer Empire #PraiseRoosevelt. 03:16, September 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kingdom of Pegu
 * Sukhotai -
 * Lavo -
 * Tambralinga -
 * Kedeh -
 * Langkasuka -
 * Kelantan -
 * Trangganu -
 * Nepal -
 * Yuan China (Otherwise known as Modeventlandia) ~Candiesrgood
 * Kingdom of Goryeo (Vassal of Yuan China)

Asian Islands

 * Kingdom of Majapahit
 * Lamuri
 * Samudrai Pasai
 * Perlak
 * Panai
 * Palembang
 * Rajahnate of Butuan
 * Kingdom of Tondo
 * Rajahnate of Cebu

North Africa

 * Bougie Sultanate -
 * Egypt (Mamlukes) -
 * Hafsids -
 * Tunis -
 * Temlecen -
 * Morocco (Marinids) - Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk) 00:55, September 6, 2015 (UTC)

West Africa

 * Empire of Mali- Nathan1123 (talk) 17:54, September 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Empire of Bornu -
 * Walo -
 * Gobir -
 * Daura -
 * Katsina -
 * Zamfara -
 * Kano -
 * Zaria -
 * Ife -

East Africa

 * Alodia -
 * Dongola -
 * Alwah -
 * Empire of Ethiopia -
 * Sultanate of Ifat -
 * Mogadishu -

Australia and Oceania

 * Kukukuku Tribe- SkyGreen24
 * Tu'i Tongan Empire

Mesoamerica

 * League of Mayapan - Cour *talk* 19:01, September 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Culiacan -
 * Tarascan State -
 * Atzcapotzalco -
 * Cholula -
 * Coatzacualco -
 * Yahualulco -
 * Potonchan -
 * Chiapan -
 * Tayasal -
 * Chicomuceltec -
 * Comitan -
 * Zapotecs (semi-urban) -
 * Mixtecs (semi-urban) -
 * Cueva

North America

 * Cahokie (semi-urban) -

South America
ADDING MORE
 * Amyara-
 * Chancay -
 * Chimu -
 * Chiribaya -
 * Ica-Nazca -
 * Sanuma - Shikata ga nai! 21:29, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sican -
 * Kingdom of Cuzco (predynastic) -
 * Wanka -

Discussion
If there's to be any American nations, I would like some kind of place there. Mayans, Aztec, Zapotec, etc. Cour *talk* 19:52, September 6, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think Scar can have France.

19:54, September 6, 2015 (UTC)

Hi Scraw. Maybe the mods of the new game can veto certain dibs? Cour *talk* 21:07, September 6, 2015 (UTC)

Even though I'm not a mod, I'm really tempted to just add all the remaining nations myself, being that I have maps of that time. What do you think, mods? I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  02:34, September 7, 2015 (UTC)

Oh lawdy. Yeah, scar's not getting France. @nate if you're up for that, go for it. I'm swamped with making that map. Crim de la Crème 22:08, September 7, 2015 (UTC)

I used my map of 1295 to add everything I could to Africa, the Americas, and Asia. Hopefully that should be everything.I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  00:00, September 8, 2015 (UTC)

Can I be the Tu'i Tongan Empire ? <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)   19:29, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The Hawai'ian Islands were separate chiefdoms at this time. Someone edited my additions. <span style="background:-webkit-gradient(linear, left top, right top, from(#B8860B), to(#DEB887)); border:4px ridge grey; -webkit-border-radius:0em 0em 0em 0em;"> <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.5em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">Jbwncster   <span style="text-shadow: 1px 1px 2px brown, 0 0 1em #000, 0 0 0.2em #0FF; color: white; font: 1.0em Cambria, serif; text-align: center; font-variant: small-caps;">(Talk)   02:57, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

throwing my hat in the Ring as Cuzco

to be honest i don't think scar should get bohemia it is a very important country in this period and scar is well scar. With Blood and Iron (talk) 13:24, September 22, 2015 (UTC)rr

Round 1

 * Annales Mundi
 * Medieval Land Fun Time World
 * Awesome history 28 (talk) 15:21, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * Merveilles du Monde - Marvels of the World (French)
 * Merveilles du Monde - Marvels of the World (French)


 * ​I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  17:39, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * KawaiiKame (talk) 17:42, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * 17:30, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Cookiedamage (talk) 19:33, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * -Seiga [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|30px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|25px|border]] 2015 September 13, 21:38 (CET)
 * Saturn120 22:45, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 00:02, September 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * Toby2: THEY CALL ME Mr. Awesome!!!
 * <font color="Purple">There is a god... <font color="Purple">And his name is <font color="Red">FIRES
 * <font color="Red">With Blood and Iron (talk) 14:07, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Historia - History (Latin)
 * Aevum Historiae - Age of History (Latin)
 * Aeva Historiae - Ages of History (Latin)
 * Aurora Mundi - Dawn of the World (Latin)
 * Aurora Aevorum - Dawn of the Ages (Latin)
 * Aurora Hominis - Dawn of Man (Latin)
 * Renascentia - Renaissance (Latin)
 * Aevum Illuminationis - Age of Illumination (Latin)
 * Corona et Crux - Crown and Cross (Latin)
 * Flippedlion.png NicDonalds, Beginning Editor  Talk Lionsymbol.png 22:52, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bivia - Crossroads (Latin)
 * Bivia Historiae - Crossroads of History (Latin)
 * Tr0llis (talk) 17:38, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 17:41, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sithlent (talk) 17:50, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Fritzmet (talk)
 * Shikata ga nai! 22:30, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk) 22:44, September 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * -Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 13:53, September 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * Harvenard2 (talk)
 * Aeviternity - midpoint between time and eternity (English)
 * Feudal Plague- because that's what Feudalism is, a plague
 * User:WILDSTARSKAORI
 * Principia Moderni IV
 * Cour *talk*
 * Scarlet Outlaw
 * Scarlet Outlaw

Round 2
Bivia Historiae - Crossroads of History (Latin) Merveilles du Monde - Marvels of the World (French)
 * 1) -Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 00:47, September 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Through Stars We Rise. (Welcome to the Universe). 15:30, September 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Fritzmet (talk) 15:13, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) Tr0llis (talk)
 * 5) Scarlet Outlaw
 * 1) Willster22 (User talk:Willster22) 09:26, September 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * 17:13, September 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) -Seiga [[Image:Miko THPW2.png|30px]] [[Image:Flag of Europe.svg|25px|border]] 2015 September 19, 19:16 (CET)
 * 2) Saturn120 21:33, September 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Toby2: THEY CALL ME Mr. Awesome!!!
 * 4) FP(Hand of the Imp) 20:11, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * 5) <font color="Purple">There is a god... <font color="Purple">And his name is <font color="Red">FIRES
 * 6) Cour *talk* 23:12, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * 7) Cookiedamage (talk) 23:18, September 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * 8) I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  04:29, September 21, 2015 (UTC)]
 * 9) Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk) 23:57, September 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * 10) With Blood and Iron (talk) 20:12, September 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) With Blood and Iron (talk) 20:12, September 22, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
All the things with Aev- and Bivia sound stupid. Crown and Cross places too much emphasis on the wrong things. Annales Mundi is just Anal World. This is not the Dawn of anything.

I also have another name: Merveilles du Monde (Marvels of the World), taken from the name of Marco Polo's book.

17:33, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

A game called "medieval" anything is destined to become a misnomer after 1500. I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  17:37, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

Anything with anal in the title is a joke before it even begins.

17:40, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

A game called "Annales Mundi" is destined to distort the mind of the young children that play a great role in our wonderful little community. We must refrain from using the term 'anal' at all as it is a derogative term. In comparison, "Medieval Land Fun Time World" is a nice and creative name that would receive parental approval and would naturally attract more users to join the Map Game. <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px;text-align:center;">( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Somehow I doubt James Ussher had any anal in mind when he wrote Annales Mundi I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  20:07, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

Can't we just keep it as PMIV? I think it's pretty classy. The Principia Moderni series is the biggest on the wiki, and I don't think we need an extra name. Cour *talk* 21:28, September 13, 2015 (UTC)

Essentially we all hate the Principia Moderni franchise, and we're trying to recreate/reboot the series, although nothing is really different. Tr0llis (talk) 12:06, September 14, 2015 (UTC)

I think we should remove all of the choices that no one has voted for so far, and not allow anymore new suggestions, in order to limit the field.

16:24, September 15, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the name should be in French when Latin is a far superior option. Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk) 04:48, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Round 2 between Bivida Historiae and Merveilles du Monde?-Lx (leave me a message) 18:38, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Lx. Also, Latin is boring and overused, and in this particular case sounds bad. Merveilles du Monde is also the title of Marco Polo's historical world, and Crim originally posited 1295 as a starting date because of Marco Polo, which is why I think it's especially fitting.

21:24, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Since I have seen no objections, I will move to create a "round 2" section for voting.-Lx (leave me a message) 00:47, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

I suppose a referance to Marco Polo would make a good title, it's way better than the initially-proposed Annales Mundi. Daxus the Harbinger of Lameness (talk)

Well, I guess the people have spoken, the winner is pretty clear at this point : Merveilles du Monde!-Lx (leave me a message) 14:15, September 22, 2015 (UTC)

Britannia
Seeing as Qarth isn't contributing any more can I be Britannia?

Awesome history 28 (talk) 19:27, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

If a user has been inactive for at least 15 turns, that users nation becomes open. Seeing that he hasn't been active, you are free to post as Britannia. Saturn120 12:05, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

In retrospect this was a bad decision. Also, Sat isn't even a mod.

21:03, September 20, 2015 (UTC)

I was just quoting from the rules. I didn't know he was gonna send the gays to Jersey :/. Saturn120 23:02, September 20, 2015 (UTC)

Reman-Led Axis of Freedom Coalition
Total: 100.59
 * Location: -8+-4+4+4-8+8= -4/6 = -0.66
 * Tactical Advantage: 2
 * Strength: 7 (Reme)+7 (Algoquonia)+5.25 (Roman Empire)+5.25 (Spain)+5.25 (Kuba)+5.25 (Netherlands)+5+3+3+5 = 49.25
 * Motive: 7+7+7+7+7+7 = 42/6 = 7
 * Morale: 3+5 = 8
 * Chance: 7
 * Edits: 3769
 * UTC (12:39) = 1*2*3*9 = 54
 * 3769/54 * pi = 219.271
 * Nation Age: 5+5+5 = 15/3 = 5
 * Population: 9+2 = 11
 * Participation: +10
 * Number of Troops: 7,500,000/1,500,000= 5
 * Theaters of War: 0
 * Concurrent Wars: 0
 * Recent Wars: -2+-1 = -3

Britannia
Total: 44
 * Location: 15
 * Tactical Advantage: 5+6
 * Strength: 7
 * Motive: 9
 * Morale -2+-10+-5= -17
 * Chance: 1
 * Edits: 3769
 * UTC (12:39) = 1*2*3*9 = 54
 * 3769/54 * pi = 219.271
 * Nation Age: -0
 * Population: 8
 * Participation: 10
 * Recent Wars: 0
 * Troops strength: 1,500,000/4,500,000 = 0
 * Theaters of War: 0
 * Concurrent Wars: 0

Result
(100.59/(100.59+44))*2-1= 0.39138252991

0.39138252991*(1-1/(2*3)) = 0.34245971367

Britannia collapses in 4 years.

Discussion
Anyone else who wants to help out in the Coalition, just add yourselves to the algorithm. Saturn120 13:56, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Count me in

18:46, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

Added Spain. Saturn120 19:41, September 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'm in~Tao64

PM3 IS ALMOST OVER
Guys, instead of segwaying into the next mmo map game in the middle of a semester, can we take a short break? I think I speak for everyone when I say I have other things that I want to do on the wiki / life without having to get sucked into another intense match. I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  05:12, September 27, 2015 (UTC)

War of Russian Liberation
If we made a war to get rid of Brittania's homophobic government there should be a war to get rid of Russia's heterophobic government. We should rescue the Russian people from their government's suicidally stupid actions. Yank 09:11, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. Under normal circumstances, Russia would never make the decisions that Wrto made. Moreover, Wrto himself mentioned in his turn that he merely sought to 'have fun' as Russia. Now I'm not sure what kind of a sick mind thought the following was funny, but Wrto apparently thinks they're.


 * "He decided to fuck a mule that he saw nearby, but the mule kicked him in the head and killed him."


 * "All churches were burned down with the priests being forced to suck dicks and then fed to sharks."


 * " The Jews are again made soap in large quantities, filthy people of Lesga use this soap to bathe."


 * "A national effort to bastardise the Russian people was made from the government by bringing the Tatar people in Russia in thousands promising them huge payment from bastardising/raping all Russian people by that offering every person an "amazing" experience. Pedo's gangs were organized raping children"

In any case, my personal view is that Wrto should be punished from Principia Moderni III for voluntarily creating disturbance, and promoting sexually disturbing content. He never took the Game seriously, I mean I'm not asking him to take a Map Game seriously, but this was just too much. Immature behaviour like this should never be taken leniently, and I believe action should be taken.

Ok i know that i have kind of gone too far and i am sorry but again it wasn't meant as an offense and i write it when i was high Wrto12 (talk) 15:43, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Also i meant to kill off Russia(or any country that i had), to finish off the game(Whjich was super inactive/dead),i am sorry if that offended anyone. Wrto12 (talk) 15:48, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of whether the game is inactive or not, it has been one of the most successful Map Games, and each nation has a rich history. You're no one to suddenly join in, and start killing off nations. Maybe this is what you do in other Map Games, but you're not allowed to do it here.

But you see, your attempt to kill Russia wasn't what triggered my harsh respond. The provocative and galling turn of yours was what crossed the line. As far as it wasn't meant as an offense and i write it when i was high is concerned, that is your own personal problem, and definitely not something that can be used to justify what you said. As far as offending people is concerned, you mocked Christianity [priests being forced to suck dicks], the Holocaust [The Jews are again made soap] and sexual abuse victims '''[Pedo's gangs were organized raping children]. '''

I'm not quite sure how you thought all of this wasn't offensive. I mean, how can anyone take this as a joke. It's not funny, it is horrible.

Probably the absurdity of it all, combining with extreme exageration and carricaturing of current events might have given it away as not-all-that-serious. Poe's law was even invoked in the first sentance of his russia, I paraphrase "since I can't change countries I'll just screw around with russia". Partialy a satirization of what is happening currently in russia (reduction of LGBT rights, with people on russian TV actively saying "we all know that all gays are pedos! We should lock them up") but in reverse and exagerated, and the resurgance of the Russian Orthodox church. Also, in case you didnt notice, the center of the ROC changed from Moscow to Pskov in the 18th century. so as to respond to how "anybody can take it as a joke" : its so absurd it can't be serious, even invoking poe's law by stating intent in the first sentance of the first post. It may be horrible, but it isn't as black as lots of russian humour. Turst me, russians laught at themselves and do so in the darkest ways possible. Humour can be used as a coping mechanism, to make the taboo less taboo, and it doesnt lose its value because it is "horrible". yes, some forms of humour are dark and sometimes disturbing as hell, but just because racists laught at racist jokes, and sexists laught at sexist jokes, the logic does not work in reverse. Not everyone that laughs at racist jokes is a racist, not everyone that laughs at sexist jokes are sexists, because most people can realize that humour is an exageration  of reality, stereotypes, prejudices, events etc... You might not find it funny, but other people do, which is why offensive jokes do exist, and you dont get to say that "this humour should be banned/uttered in front of me/censored becayse I dont find it funny."

Now, that being said, it was still inappropriate to post this in a map game post, where the whole point is that people actualy take their countries at least minimally seriously, and don't post exagerated things in order to spite people (right now i'm thinking of PM1 and India nuking people in the 1600s, and yes, the guy got banned because apart from trying to make the game into a joke, he was a sockpuppeter). In an environment like map games, sure, it can be cool to fool around sometimes, like with things like Batman, and references to events, and be humourous in some ways, but the difference there is that the people doing that still take the game seriously and want to improve the game, they want to inject some constructively humourous events that everyone can laught at when they get the references, and lighten up people's moods (and again, those can be taken too far and become repetitive, thus why we put a stop to them). They are not intended, as the new Russia posts suggest the purpose was, to make a mockery of the PMIII map game near the end, which is exactly why its perfectly OK for the Russia posts to be crossed, and a lot less OK for the events I described to be crossed. Just my 2 cents.-Lx (leave me a message) 19:23, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

His actions were crossed out. They do not exist with in this game. Do not acknowledge them, Pay to attention to fools or they will make a fool of you.

20:07, September 30, 2015 (UTC)

A Good Game
Being that PM3 will be over in less than a week, I would like to take the time now to say that I greatly enjoyed myself. Yes, it had it's problems. Every game does. But the reason I and so many other people kept coming back is because the entire concept is intriguing, the integrated universe is fascinating, and every moment of participaiton, good or bad, was ultimately a contribution to the fun. So GG everyone, you all played a good role.

In all honesty, I must say there were many aspects of the PM3 timeline that were quite enjoyable to read of and experience. If we can retain the good aspects of this game, and fix the mistakes, MdM will prove to be even more amazing. This includes:
 * The Great Western Schism escalating into two different Catholic churches for some time
 * The Tartary defeating Moscow and continuing to the modern day as an industrialized nation
 * The Byzantine Empire defeating the Ottomans and restoring the Eastern Roman Empire
 * The Hindu states of India forming a league to drive off the Mughal Empire, later united under the Empire of Urdustan
 * The Kalmar Union fully integrating Scandinavia as a single nation
 * The British Isles uniting their governments in 1420
 * The Mississippian Civilization forming into an urbanized nation and adopting culture and religion from the Byzantines
 * Croatia uniting the Balkans and becoming a superpower in Eastern Europe
 * The County of Oldenburg being the first colonising nation in Europe
 * America being discovered first by a group of enterprising Jews
 * The Ming Dynasty collapsing fifty years early, leading to a "Four Kingdom" period until the industrialized Shun Dynasty
 * The Sultanate of Timor colonizing Australia and converting the Aboriginals to Islam
 * Two small tribal states in Siberia and Alaska establishing trade contact
 * A Napolean-esque coalition war against the Spanish Empire
 * A Neo-Spanish Empire forming in the 19th century, to prove that their not completely washed up
 * Japan restoring the Emperor as a theocracy in the 18th century
 * The Incan Empire lasting to the modern day as a global superpower
 * The Hashemite Caliphate breifly reuniting the Middle East
 * France turning into a Communist State after a much longer Valois Dynasty
 * Poland leading the Communist coalition
 * Communism mostly destroyed in World War I
 * All axis nations destroyed by World War II, leading to a more successful Space Race
 * I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  23:56, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Most of the stuff you listed (especially in the beginning) also functions as a list of implausibilities/problems with the game, albeit incomplete. Tr0llis (talk) 00:05, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Shhh ignore the implausablites and focus on the #Andeanmasterrace #PraiseRoosevelt.

Yeah, I have to agree with Trollis. Back then, things such as the Muscovy and Tartary war (which has its roots in literally the first day of the game) were seen as examples of metagaming, implausibility, and game-damaging events. The Great Schism was totally irrelevant in PM3 after we briefly dealt with it in the 1400s. In fact, MP himself made a mod event stating that the Western Church and Roman Catholic church were once more united, since there basically was no difference between the two and the entire existence of the Western Church was largely ASB.

Don't even get me started on the Mississipian civilization. Some people truly hated what Rex was doing with Mississipia, and saw it as ASB when he began urbanizing the civilization, so much that a mod event basically caused a hugely devastating flood in the region.

And of course, the War on Spain... The only reason we all banded together to take down Spain was not because we wanted to destroy a Napoleonic-esque empire, but because we all agreed on chat that Feud was totally ASB in how he handled Spain and therefore must go. The only reason you, me, and all the mods have a facebook chat is because we needed a secure place to discuss warring on feud. In hindsight, the war on Spain was a terrible, metagaming disaster which set precedents for all the other "gangbang" wars in PM3, including how you all ganged up on me, Guy, and Cal, and got away with it (so keep patting yourselves on the back I guess, lol).

" All axis nations destroyed by World War II" Erm.... I'm pretty sure Germany still stands but okay...

A few of the points you mentioned were valid, such as Communism losing its validity and legitimacy after WWI, as well as the Croatian and Oldenburger rises to power, but other than that, almost all the posts you mentioned '''are hugely contentious. '''And like Trollis said, people use the above points as evidence for metagaming and implausibility as opposed to the fruits of a good map game.

Cookiedamage (talk) 00:45, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Don't think I'm not aware of those problems. I see you ignored most of the list and zeroed in on the stuff you were upset about. Really, in most situations (there were some totally ASB stuff I left out) there was always a different side of the event that wasn't necessarily ASB, and was in fact an interesting divergence of history. The problem is that, because the ASB aspect of those events caused the most grief, they are the only things people remember.

For example, I'm fully aware that Feud's empire was taken down because it was ASB (that was my first post on the wiki). However, notice that the product of that war was a series of beautiful articles viviedly depicting the battles and campaigns of this war, with perfectly believable in-game rationale. It's true that, in reality, the war came because the empire was ASB, but we don't have to always see it that way.

If you want to hate your own game (in which you caused quite a lot, Cookie), then fine. But for me, this was a most worth-while experience, and I can only hope the future on the wiki will have more content like (the good aspects of) PM3. I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  04:12, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Zeroed in on things I was "upset about"? What are you even talking about? I was bringing up valuable criticisms of your list, which you claimed as "good aspects", which I argued against. I argued that these "good aspects" were not as good as we like to reminisce, and they made the game quite difficult for a lot of people. And of course you have to act like a passive-aggressive instigator and claim I'm only focusing on things that upset me. Newsflash Nate: These things don't upset me, more so they reminded me of the crummy aspects of PM3 that a lot of people also did not like.

And I literally mentioned in my original post that you were right about some things being good, such as the Croatian rise and Oldenburger colonization, fall of Communism, etc..., but of course you ignored me agreeing with you just so you can paint me as a whiny pessimist (while simultaneously accusing me of ignoring your original argument... so... hypocrite much???)

What are you even trying to get at with your whole "even though the war on Spain was ASB, we don't have to look at it like that". Okay, fair enough.... But you actually have to look at the situation before summarizing its effect. The War on Spain happened in the 1730s-ish when a bunch of European nations warred on Spain. We know that much. However, all these allied nations were barely friendly before the war. For example, I wasn't too friendly with Croatia or Rome, and moderately friendly with Hamburg, for instance. Yet of course, since we all got together on chat and decided we were done with Feud, we randomly allied each other within a year or two and warred on him. That's obviously metagaming. So there really was no Napoleon-esque coalition, because the OTL Coalitions were crafted over years of diplomacy and diplomatic precedence. Sure, some nations fighting France were former enemies, but I think you get the drift. Then, the way we dismantled the Spanish empire really verged on complete ASBness. They wanted to literally split mainland Iberia into numerous Kingdoms, and of course, we showed Feud no mercy with his colonies. So, completely ASB there. '''In summary, the entire war on Spain was completely ASB and I personally regret it very much. And basically you're saying that we don't have to see it as ASB.... But.... What else do we see it as??? '''Oh "but the war produced pretty pages and beautiful articles with beautiful pictures" (which weren't original, btw). Yeah I really don't see the logic in that.

"If you want to hate on your own game (in which you caused quite a lot, Cookie) then fine" You. Are. So. Petty!!! I'm hating on my own game because I '''criticized some aspects of it that YOU and you only stated were good? '''Really? First of all, the only reason that list you made represents the "good" of PM3 is because you said so and you perceived them as good. As Trollis said, a lot of people would take the same list and say they were the "bad" elements of PM3.

I'm not hating on my own game. I love PM3 and am proud of some of the things I did as Bavaria. Also remember that I have been in the game longer, have experienced first-hand the list of events you described, and transformed Bayern-Landshut from a tiny fractured Duchy into to a united Germany. Now, whether or not you think it was a good-thing, or whether or not you hate me, you have to admit it was an accomplish. Or don't admit that, fine. You can certainly not say that A.) you went through all the things you describe in that list; nor can you B.) claim that you built Borealia from the ground. As your signature says, Feud was the one who made Borealia possible (not you). He built the colony, he established the infrastructure, he founded the society. I then took it over briefly, before '''I handed you Borealia on a silver platter. '''I wanted to give a new player a chance at learning PM3 and getting established in an already-established, mostly developed country. Clearly that has come back and bitten me on the ass.

TL;DR: To be frank, Nate, you have little experience or authority to compile a list of major events in PM3 and claim that as "good aspects" that need to be carried over into MdM, especially when A.) you weren't around first hand when all these things were happening, so you really can't claim whether they were 'good' or 'bad'; and B.) As Trollis and I have pointed out, so many people would feel that your list epitomizes the 'bad' of PM3, rather than the good.

P.S. I'm still bothered that you accuse of me hating on PM3 by criticizing it... Like... that's juvenile behaviour coming from you. I say this in a completely honest manner as well. It's like someone legitimately complaining about their work-place in a job they more-or-less like, and a manager just popping in and being like "why do you hate it so much!!??"... Like, no, I wouldn't be working a job I like if I actually hated it... I'm just criticizing parts that haven't sit well with me. Don't tell me you're one of those people who accuse others of hating America when they complain about healthcare, racism, etc. Because it really is the same concept.

Cookiedamage (talk) 04:52, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

A few great highlights from PM3:


 * On turn one an ASB/implausible "coincidental" alliance of the Golden Horde, the Kalmar Union, and Poland-Lithuania attack and annex (to Poland) the nation of Moscow (because they disliked the "ms crony" Edboy).
 * Seemingly ASB coalition of mostly German states against Poland that liberates Moscow; sudden Austrian support of the Teutonic Order.
 * England and France abruptly decide to just settle their differences diplomatically.
 * The War of the Roses is prevented mostly through laziness.
 * England gets to keep mainland territory in France and begins to turn Brittany into Briton culture.
 * The fact that the Roman Empire prevailed (mostly because the Ottoman player was absent and because all of Europe made a giant coalition to save them).
 * The fact that the Kalmar Union had no major problems or revolts, and just unified into the UNC.
 * Rex's giant Egypt, which stretched from Libya to Madagascar.
 * The rapid Christianization and modernization of Madagascar.
 * Madagascar colonies in west Africa.
 * Saam's entire nation essentially, and the fact that it expanded one pixel deep across a large amount of territory, often through deserts.
 * Giant coalition to destroy Genoa because it was played by Oct.
 * The fact that the mods punished Austria for letting Genoa get destroyed even though Austria's player was absent at the time, and Austria wasn't even the emperor, Palatinate (NPC) was.
 * The fact that the mods tried to make a mod event saying the HRE dissolved because of the stress of one or two wars in the last two decades.
 * Naples conquered all of Italy by the 1420s.
 * The fact that the players in central Europe (Austria, Bavaria, Hesse, Hamburg, etc) were able to conquer dozens and dozens of other German states through vassalization in their turns.
 * The fact that Scandinavia was able to avoid most problems by saying they wanted an "arc" instead of a bad mod event.
 * The fact that Spain was able to avoid most problems by removing them.
 * England simply vassalizes Scotland and forms a United Kingdom.
 * England conquers Ireland thanks to its players ASB-ly agreeing to join England.

And that brings us to 1450. I will add the rest later. Fritzmet (talk) 10:50, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

I do things I enjoy. If I don't enjoy myself, it's not worth doing. Clearly some people in this game are more masochistic. The reason I didn't list the things I did not like about the game (as Fritz seems anxious to do), is because I know you all are quite well aware of what they are.

As to your various insults and accusaitons, Cookie, there is nothing worth responding to. I would like to thank Feud for making Borealia possible  15:35, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Nate, you need to start seeing things the way we see them. '''We're not saying you can't enjoy the game. We're not saying you have to feel ashamed for playing PM3, and we're not saying this game is worthless.''' All me, fritz, and Trollis are saying is that some of the things you said were good were actually quite bad in our eyes.... We tell you this... and you attack us and claim as being masochistic??? Are you  that  sensitive to criticism?

And um, if you don't want to be called a hypocrite, petty, naive, or unexperienced, don't come onto this talk page and publish a list of "good aspects" of pm3 when you weren't even there for most of these events, and don't come at us accusing us of being "masochistic" and hating the game when we criticize your list.

Honestly, you could have launched a much better discussion of whether or not these aspects of pm3 were truly good or bad. To do this, you would have actually responded to things me, trollis, and fritz have said instead of being a child and claiming us of hating the game. You did a bit of a good job in addressing my first comment, but then you went on this weird tangent about how I hate the game and how the War on Spain "doesn't have to be seen as ASB".

Grow up, Nate. You're accusing us of being masochistic because we dislike parts of a game '''we firsthand experienced. You DID NOT experience all these events you speak of, so don't come at us claiming we hate the game because we have authority to speak on these issues when you do not.'''

Cookiedamage (talk) 15:48, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

This has gone on far enough. Nate's allowed to like the game and find things interesting. There is absolutely 'zero' reason to make an issue out of this. Fritz, you're out of line as usual. Cookie, I expect better from you. End the debate or I will. Crim de la Crème 16:40, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

IM still a tad bit salty about being the sacrificial lamb for the downfall of communism. But that same event allowed me and Yank to finaly settle our differences after 3 PM games, so all's well that ends well I guess. Also a bit surprised that there weren't any Pskovian independance movements, but I left the game before that anyway. Time to move west: to France, and soon I will have the maid of Orleans (or equivelant) leading my armies of pikemen and crossbowmen...We will see who finishes with the most wonders of the world.-Lx (leave me a message) 19:19, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

How am I out of line? You just said Nathan is allowed to like parts of the game and he has made highlights, just like I did. If anything the only thing out of line is the argument seemingly escalating between Nathan and Cookie. Fritzmet (talk) 19:23, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

More MdM Stuff!
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for renaming the game. I wasn't that comfortable with the word 'anus' anywhere in the title and I really like the new name, so kudos to all.

Secondly,

Start thinking about what color you want for your nation (dibs on Venetian dark green because Venice). I'll be posting the labelled map soon. If there is anything wrong with the map, feel free to point it out. Keep in mind that I can't make the image any bigger. Wikia seems to have issues with images over 5000 px in any dimension. This is not the final map! Crim de la Crème 19:18, October 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * Right, Normandy was absorbed into the french King's holdings in 1204, so were toulouse and champagne, in 1274 and 1281 respectively. New peerages were not created untill 1297 (brittany, Artois, Anjou) and just a question, what is the french peerage in Aquitane, just curous If it's Aquitaine, you should put that instead of Brittany in the sign ups.-Lx (leave me a message)Azarath Flag.png 19:44, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

I would like a nice French Blue, {{legend|#0072BB|Hex Code: #0072BB. Vive la France!}}-Lx (leave me a message) 19:24, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

An excellent choice. Crim de la Crème 19:28, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

For Naples, I'd like to use this shade of dark pinkish red {{legend|#B40725|Hex Code: #B40725. Is it Magenta, Cherise, Burgundy, Amaranth?}}

Could I have this lovely sandy beige for Oman please? FP ( Hand of the Imp ) 20:48, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

I wouldnt mind a Indigo {{legend|#4B0082|Hex Code: #4B0082}}' Dreamcaster1 (talk) 21:00, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

I wanted some of that English red to complement the French blue but the Neapolitan color is too near to it. I would still like it though: <font color=#cf0f2b>#cf0f2b (RGB 207, 15, 43). The only proper color for England is red and France is blue. This is a fact. 21:08, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

A fabulous color for Fabulous Serbia {{legend|#F3E5AB|Hex Code:#F3E5AB}} Toby2: THEY CALL ME Mr. Awesome!!!