Talk:Sierra Nevada (1983: Doomsday)/Archive

Borders
When I originally envisioned this nation a number of weeks ago, I was unsure as to what its borders might be given it would encompass areas of desert. Until I can work up a map per se, I generally see the borders as approximating the northern and eastern borders of the former Nevada with the south defined by Route Six. As for California, the region around Lake Tahoe and parts of the Sierra Nevada. In essence holding the relevant mountain passes to prevent enemies from crossing into the nation. As I don't want to accidently encroach the borders of New Vegas, I want to be certain where they would interact with me. Since I am still working on where I wish to take this story, I will add more as soon as time allows. Fxgentleman 05:31, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Way to go, Fx, pulverize the poor folk in Las Vegas while letting BOTH Reno and Carson City off scott free! :-)


 * Actually I see Tahoe as being a great hub for a survivor state, but either Reno or Carson City would have certainly been a target, if not both. And you want to take out Area 51? Where's the adventure in that? :-)


 * If you need help on that map, let me know. I have more time than sense! SouthWriter 05:56, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I like it so far but I wish Area 51 didn't get hit I'd like to see some kind of exploration there sometime. --GOPZACK 17:15, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that since this whole state was basically started by politicians from the existing state of Nevada, it would stand to reason that the eventual land would be the "sucessor" of the original "Nevada" with the right to be recognized as such. Carson was good enough for Nevada - and it has the government buildings to prove it! SouthWriter 05:39, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is my suggested map for the borders (drawn in dark green), it centers in what is mostly forest and mountain in
 * California, and mainly desert in Nevada. Plus another suggestion, since Carson City (the capital of Nevada wasn't hit) it could be the potential capital for this nation.[Riley]
 * California, and mainly desert in Nevada. Plus another suggestion, since Carson City (the capital of Nevada wasn't hit) it could be the potential capital for this nation.[Riley]

I have to confess that I am getting a bit frustrated regarding this business over Sierra Nevada's borders. I am currently rewriting the article to address a few things I neglected to earlier, as such I have not updated further. However, what I don't understand is this desire as expressed by some writers that the state government is going to abandon the rest of the state is utterly totally, ridiculous. Several things to consider. First, the govenrment of NV survived along with the state capital and governor, as such there is a working apparatus in place as opposed to other states. Second, strikes were contained to the souther tip of the state, primarily Clark County. The rest of the state was not touched except for fallout. This means, among other things, intact roads and rail lines, agricultural assets, oil fields and refining capability; and a number of surving cities and towns. Third, the governor would not abandon the rest of his state and would do everything in his power to make the citizens aware their government existed and was there for them and work with the existing political leaders to do what could be done to keep the state intact. This business about Carson City being to far away is silly, given it only takes about six hours to drive to the UT border. I know this for a fact because I have family who live in NV. Also, any intelligent person is going to want to preserve the state as best as they could, given such resources as agriculture, livestock, oil, and minerals. Lastly, this whole concept of the rest of state, or part of it, jumping ship and going over to another area would only be logicial in the absence of a state government and heavier attacks as we have seen elsewhere. As I said, I am working on my article now and hopefully will post soon.Fxgentleman 01:10, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm enjoying this article, and especially the feature-type aspects. It really humanizes the timeline, and I commend you for it. For the record, if Reno survived and granted that no one died of radiation or starvation, I see no reason for Sierra Nevada not to have the old Nevada borders. BrianD 04:26, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * My thoughts when I wrote the Utah Article in the first place was that there was no government in Reno - that it had fallen with the waves of refugees from devastated California. It's fine that it didn't - and I think the way you've dealt with the article, largely, is very much in keeping with the timeline. What we need to do is just accept that for whatever reason the cities nearest Utah slipped over to the seeming stability of Utah, when they didn't hear from Carson/Reno. I always saw that Reno/Carson and the like would've been fighting for their survival much more than worrying about their "hinterland". Remember that the MSP were until recently a very real threat to Reno - very bellicose, and within striking distance.


 * Having driven through Nevada more times than I care to count, and having spent most of my life in Utah, I can say that the state of Nevada is largely a blighted waste. It wouldn't lend itself to foragers and raiders like the California border would - Reno/Carson's front porch, as it were.


 * Because of that, I should expect Reno/Carson would go with a laissez-faire attitude when it came to their "hinterland" to the East-they likely knew of Utah's existence without Utah knowing of them. They likely figured they could sort out any territorial concerns later, with a civilized neighbor - if they survived the attacks from the West. Knowing that they wouldn't be facing attack from that quarter, they focused on the west, and survival.


 * Now that the threat to the West has subsided, the MSP a virtual non-threat, they can once again turn their attention to asserting their territorial claims - something which Utah's government at Fillmore has been preparing for. They are planning on conducting a vote to allow those cities that were historically part of Nevada to "return to the fold." I can understand your frustration, and wanting things to be as you envisage them, but, point of fact, we all accept QSS and QAA as part of this timeline - so we can either look at changing QSS (something to very much avoid), or we tailor your information about Sierra Nevada to take into account this temporary defection of cities to Utah. With a few changes in the near future, you can have Nevada as hale and hearty as you'd like it - we just need to wait for the political apparatus of Utah to run its course - I was thinking it'd be Early to Mid-June. - Louisiannan 05:25, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate input and am willing to make adjustments if the need arises. I approach things from a very analytical point of view. I carefully research and think them out before writing. Like the other contributors here, I have always tried to work within the framework of what is canon. However, as has been pointed out many times previously, some articles were written when certain areas of the map were blank. As those areas have filled in over time, it presents a situation far different than that which was earlier envisioned by previous writers. As we have seen, articles which were once canon, have been modified (albeit slightly in most cases) to reflect changes. Prior to writing this article, I did read the history of Utah, MSP, and NAU and I saw nothing concerning areas of Nevada being part of Utah. As such, this was the main reason in my first version, I noted my borders as I did. In light of recent conversations here and Cascadia, I sat down and reread the Utah history again several times. With the exception of the map (which I noted the smaller version gives a different look than the larger one) there was nothing I observed concrete. My impression, was and still is, the issue was more theoretical versus canon. The sudden appearance of the Cascadia map, with a massive chunk of Nevada having gone over to Utah, left me in shock given what I had already seen on Utah and written on the SNU. In working on Delmarva I outlined my national boundaries in the article before creating a map. If I am missing something, please show me because I don't see it.

As I said, I am very analytical and do my research. In addition to reviewing other DD articles, I have studied maps; population density figures; the structure of the state government; key political figures in 1983; agricultural breakdown by county; the National Guard; military facilities; oil, natural gas, and mining maps and statistics; and key cities to name just a few. This is why I have expressed frustration in regards to the situation. Although I have tried to lay out my logic before, I feel I must do so once more.

According to the FEMA map, Nellis AFB was the only primary target in the state; Hawthorne secondary; and Reno and Fallon, tertiary. This is why I chose only Vegas and Hawthorne to be hit, along with one or two other places tossed in. As such, this presents a situation in which strike damage in relegated for the most part to the southern areas. Granted there was still fallout statewide, but the worst I feel would be carried over the south versus north.

With the northern and central part of the state intact, this sets up a unique situation which doesn't appear to often in the post war US. The state capital is intact along with for the most part the state government, including the governor. At this point, the argument seems to be that Carson ignores the rest of the state and concentrates only in its own area. This defies common sense. The governor is going to want to contact the rest of the state and marshal resources to keep it intact. In the total absence of any contact, say the loss of the capital, I would honestly accept the concept of border communities going over. However, this is not the case here.

Another argument has been why would the governor want to keep the state's borders intact? First and foremost, as governor, he would want to keep his state together. Second, the state would want to gather together and hold resources which would be valuable to survival, including land to grow crops and raise animals and valuable assets as oil and natural gas fields. Having studied where these are, it seems surprising the governor would just allow them to fall into someone else's hands. Another issue is distance. I have family who live in Nevada and have visited the state many times over the last twenty years. I know for a fact you can drive from Carson to the Utah border in about five to six hours. Logically, the southern part of the state would take longer to reach than its eastern borders. Which is why I chose to abandon it, along with the strikes, fallout, and previous nuclear bomb testing. Sure, Nevada is not Vermont, but it is not like driving say north to south in CA. Also keep in mind, you have an intact road network which would provide quick transit routes.

Lastly, I have not tried to picture an ideal situation in the state, but one based on logic. I still have to fill in more of the states history to include refugee rioting, border incursions and massacres; and instability. The other article sections represent the nation's development over the last 27 years. All this said, I am more than willing to engage in dialogue and modify if need be. I would like to understand the logic of the changes and how they are grounded in reality. No matter how many ways I look at it, I can not see it. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 12:08, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Then I'm going to ask that this be put to arbitration by Ben Karnell or Mitro - because I feel that Utah's "claims" are QSS although current political changes can lead to a view better aligned with what you originally saw for the area. The only cities that Utah's truly claiming are Caliente, Ely, and Wells, and the highway corridor through that area. Ben, Mitro - please adjudicate the situation. If I should change the data I've put forward for Utah, let me know - if we can find a compromise, or create one, so much the better. Louisiannan 23:10, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I am open to arbitration on the subject Louisiannan. As I said I am a reasonable person open to discussion. In fact I incorporated your suggestion on trade when I rewrote my article. But having read the articles of all neighboring states, especially Utah and its history, I can not find anything in canon text which would have to be changed except for two maps or so regarding the fixing of borders. The absorption of southern Idaho by Utah settlers appears to be what was canon. From my point of view it seems sort of downright strange that the state government, especially the governor, in Carson is going to either forget all about northeastern NV or just ignore it given it is only six hours away by driving. The same would go for people in this area, such as Wells. Are they going to not wonder about Carson? Is not somebody going to check on the situation by driving along the undamaged roads to inquire? What about the Highway Patrol and National Guard investigating the state per the governor's request. Are they going to go to places like Alamo and Beatty, but not Ely, Wells, and Caliente? What about the oil fields in these areas, is the governor not going to want to hold these since they area energy vital? As I said, the whole subject defies logic to me.

My thought has been, based on my reading, was the SNU secures it borders with Utah in 1983, but there is no direct contact for years (per your history) as the SNU concentrates on its own affairs. I was planning on making the SNU aware of Utah via refugees who leave to escape what they view as a Mormon religious state. I wanted to discuss with you the possibility that some time around 1987 to 1989 first contact takes place when a Utah patrol inadvertently crosses the SNU border and a small clash takes place with SNU cavalry, who mistake them for raiders. Mediation resolves the situation and the SNU offers to open relations but Utah declines at the time but acknowledges the SNU borders. I do plan to incorporate your Spokane War into my article by having a portion of their army invading the SNU to get to Utah setting up a fierce clash. Even without the first contact I have suggested (which seems again logical to me given the advancement of Utah north) this preserves the current canon history of Utah. Thanks.--Fxgentleman 00:30, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Economy
I realize some of what I have posted regarding the SNU economy might seem unusual given the general perception that Nevada is just desert. However, having done my research, I can confirm the state does have a very active agriculture and animal raising community. The items I quoted are indeed raised there in addition to other crops. I believe in the aftermath of Doomsday, these areas could be utilized to expand growing and animal raising. Also, I could see recreation areas, such as Tahoe, being turned over to growing with the loss of tourism. This would be enough over time to support the population. If anyone has questions, let me know. Fxgentleman 03:28, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that what you suggest here is fine - exports is out of the scale at this point. Who would the SNU be exporting to? Who would have interest to buy at this point? With extension of the railroad and negotiations that seem necessary between and the SNU, trade might begin there, but prior to now, I don't know that there would've been anyone to trade with, not even the MSP. My two cents. Louisiannan 20:38, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well, you do make an interesting point as to exports. My thought has generally been this, for the first ten years at least American survivor nations would focus on their own internal economies, basically developing a system by which they would be able to survive. After that or even earlier in some cases, I would think nations would start to to trade amongst themselves since it only seems logical given some might have something others do not. Given the agricultural base in the SNU and the ability to can, as well as the raising of animals, I could see potential trade emerging say with the MSP or other likewise nations such as Utah. The same goes for minerals which would be valuable in manufacturing. To use a loose analogy, think of the old west cattle drives. I do agree the SNU would have to enter into trade agreements, which is only logical. Worth noting, is the key pass through the Sierra Nevada Mountains goes right through the SNU and as such there would more than likely have to be horse trading between the SNU, MSP, and Utah, which when you think about it, makes sense. Supplies could be shipped by rail or vehicle from the the coast inland putting all parties in a valuable location for trade. Especially, since they, as established states could offer a secure route and such for outside traders hoping to reach internal markets. This is something I would very much like to talk about with you soon since if I understand, you are the writer of Utah, and whoever is doing the MSP. Unfortunately, I had wanted to fill in more about the SNU before bothering anyone. The research takes time as I am sure you know and I have to work it in along with the writing and my job. You would not believe the research I did on agriculture and oil drilling in NV before just doing the economy. If I came on a bit strong in my earlier remarks, it was not my intention. I was just trying to make an observation and figured everyone had forgotten about the SNU since it is still in proposal as I work on it. All this said, I appreciate the feedback and would like to have have talks with you about trade in the future. Fxgentleman 00:41, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

History section
Pre-Doomsday history can be really short - since the POD was in 1983, we all know the history of areas relatively well. Louisiannan 18:14, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Refugees
There wouldn't be too many refugees from Utah - some, but probably not many. Most would've moved South to the other population centers.

As for the level of the government, I would expect this to be much less stratified than most county governments, just because of its relative isolation. Louisiannan 15:42, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

In doing some of my research, I studied the various road networks in the region and noted that Route 80 ran from Salt Lake across northern Nevada and into Sacramento, CA. I hypothesized some people would flee north from Salt Lake into Nevada along this route, more than likely moved along by National Guard and militias towards the Reno-Carson City region, where they would end up in refugee camps. The same for Sacramento, with survivors/refugees traveling east along Route 80 into Nevada. Refugees from the southern part of the state, at least those who survived the journey, would likely travel along 95 and head north. As for other survivors say from Oregon or Idaho, I think there would be some over time. In regards to the government, I had not expanded further on it or other aspects of the SNU because I was pondering what to do. Given the state capital, most legislators, and the governor survived, there would be a basic structure to work off, i.e. the state constitution. I am leaning towards an emergency government working off this system for several years, before something formal is done for the SNU. --Fxgentleman 16:34, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Spokane War Spilling Over into SNU
Louisiannan: I had not given the subject a great deal of thought yet, however your suggestion is not bad. I have been trying to get a feel for what warfare might be in the post-war America and have imagined it as a cross between the Civil War and World Wars One and Two. As in those clashes, existing transportation links would be vital in helping an invading force move throughout the area. It would make sense the SA would cross into the SNU via Jackpot and move south down Route 93 towards Ely, which is over 200 miles, with the intention of then turning east to connect up with Route 50 in order to cross into Utah and carry out a surprise attack on Fillmore. Under this thought, Jackpot, Wells, and McGill, as well as any homes, farms, ranches etc. along the way, would be destroyed. I have studied my maps and pretty much everything else along the route appears to be ghost towns or tiny unincorporated townships. I omitted Wendover from this list only because I think it would be off the beaten path for them (a 61 mile detour from Wells) and would be viewed as a distraction. Anything closer might be considered worthwhile. My other thought is by going farther south than using Route 80, it would put them closer to their target instead of having to fight south through UT.

Understandably, the size and strength of the force would be key in whether or not they could easily punch their way through resistance or would it take time to overcome an enemy. The mode of transport would also be key as to their speed of movement. Horses and feet; trucks and jeeps; or a combo. I had hoped the SA might be a 2000 person force, splitting in half to attack. A larger group would mean greater problems for the SNU. If you could give me some basic parameters to work with it would help me gauge in how to set this up. My thought at this time is to possibly do this as a separate article and reference it in the SNU history. Another thought which has crossed my mind is this. As to your history, UT avoided contact with outside neighbors until their intervention in ID. I had kind of thought as I think I stated earlier the SNU and UT would have had some kind of contact by this time. If there had been, the SNU might be able to warn UT to take precautions. However, that aside though, the only other way I can immediately think UT would be aware would be via the monitoring of radio traffic. Again, any thoughts you can offer would be helpful in pointing the direction I would need to go.

My hypothetical scenario the for SNU phase of the war would go roughly like this. A SA force crosses over at Jackpot and engages a company of the 2nd SNU Cavalry stationed nearby, defeats them, and sacks the town. A few survivors escape and either call for help by radio or telegraph. They quickly move towards Wells, which is 68 miles away, pillaging any farms or ranches they encounter. This gives the SNU enough time to evacuate civilians out of the zone by railroad to Elko and bring in some more forces, but not much. The SA arrives and following an intense battle, takes the town forcing the surviving SNU forces and civilian guard units to pull back by rail, destroying the tracks of the Northern NV RR behind them. All these delaying actions by the SNU army and citizen guards buys enough time for the SNU to assemble a large force to attack and defeat the SA on the outskirts of Ely. A small group, maybe 50-100 escape into the interior and raise havoc for awhile until defeated. I am thinking, again based on what your parameters are, four to six weeks for the invasion and war and say 2-3 months for the mop up off stragglers. What do you think? --Fxgentleman 03:59, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that the force that moved on Fillmore from the west would be about 500 men. I would also suggest that Wendover send some of their regulars. They're somewhat the bastion of civilization on the west of Utah's territory - and so they would be supporting Wells and the northern towns. McGill, Ely would quite likely be in close contact with Utah, since Delta is much closer to them (1.5 hours or so) according to my coworker who hails from them. My mental thought for the region would be that there are telegraph lines running along the future lakeshore of the Mormon Sea down toward Delta and Fillmore and connecting the closely aligned cities, like Wells, McGill and Ely.
 * It could be that this war brought the contact between the SNU and Utah. I'm fine to revise this historical contact because when I wrote this orginally, I didn't think there would be a stable government in Nevada, being overrun by refugees from California.
 * Thus, what I'd suggest is that the SA be defeated by a joint Wendover Regulars/SNU army force that meets and routs the SA somewhere near the junction of 93 and 93 (just north of the 893 junction).
 * My mental image for the whole area was that with the increased rains refugees and entreprenurial Mormons had spread out to cultivate and develop what had once been barren lands, but which had been greened up by the Monsoon moisture with the change of weather. What do you think? Louisiannan 21:42, May 28, 2010 (UTC)