User talk:Hlanus

Re: Lee's Malaysia
Hello, Hlanus, long time not see you :D

I'm live in Indonesia, you know?. BTW, I like the name of town where you live: Tempe.

Okay, let's discuss about your question:


 * Yes, if G 30 S movement never happened, there was a little possibility for Suharto to take over the power. By 1960s, Suharto was not even a top general. He was leading the General Offensive in Yogyakarta in 1949 and West Irian Campaign in 1962-1963, but still he is not so popular among the commoners. Sukarno only appointed Suharo and other generals that seemed loyal to him, such as Ahmad Yani, to avoid the possible hidden coup by more popular generals, such as Abdul Haris Nasution.


 * Nasution was the possible successor of Sukarno if the latter died because Nasution already at the top of military command and other generals would backed him into power to counter the influences of PKI on Indonesian politics. But, Sukarno, who afraid of any bloody power struggle after his death, viewed Nasution for being uncooperative toward any left-wing movements, not just PKI, but also Murba and Socialist Party. Sukarno predicted if the balance of power cannot achieved, that would be a civil war occured in Indonesia, the situation that already hampered Vietnam and Laos in 1960s. Not only Sukarno who did that, King Norodom Sihanouk also did a similar move in Cambodia, but unfortunately, Cambodia cannot avoid the civil war.


 * Unlike Sukarno, Suharto viewed Nasution would unwilling to steer Indonesia into more "pro-Western" and open the country's market to foreign investors. So, there are some issues that Suharto tried "to eliminate" him during the coup. Nasution successfully escaped the assassination during the coup, but the supports from the army already turned to Suharto who mobilized the army "to counter" the "communist rebellion" on the night of September 30.


 * You must know, the Indonesian Islamic parties already weakened in late 1950s and 1960s and the Islamists already lost their place in the power struggle and preferred to cooperate with the Army, instead to have the communists took over the power. And not only the Islamists, the traditional nationalists (mainly from Sundanese and Javanese ancestry), socialists (PSI) and non-PKI communists (Murba) already torn apart by communist infiltrations within their organisations. As result, only PKI and the Army there were left for "battle for power" in 1965.


 * So, the conclusion is:


 * 1) Without G 30 S movement, there will be Nasution on power
 * 2) With Nasution on power, the communists will attack first
 * 3) With the communists attack first, Indonesia will have a civil war
 * 4) With Indonesia in a civil war, a power struggles between Communists and non-Communists will spread across the region of Southeast Asia...including your ATL Malaysia
 * 5) In the end, all of Southeast Asia will succumbed into unrest and political instability for next 20 years.


 * Well, if you want Malaysia being a regional power under Lee, you must change the situation in Indonesia first with POD as early as in 1945 and as late as in 1958.

Hope that helps. (Sorry, if my English is so bad...)

FirstStooge (talk) 05:18, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

You must make sure the coup attempt of October 17, 1952 in Jakarta never happened. The effect of the coup attempt was everlasting and developed Sukarno negative view on parliamentary democracy. If the coup never happened, Sukarno will more positively looked upon the parliamentary system and the Masyumi Party, as the largest political group in Indonesia will simply have their position on the government cemented even when the Constitutional Assembly (Konstituante) failed to create new Indonesian constitution like happened in OTL. Sukarno will never dare to appoint the communists to the cabinet and PKI will stayed as largest opposition party in the Parliament, similarly with Japanese Communist Party during the Cold War. The Indonesian government that dominated mostly by the Islamist politician surely had more tolerant stance over Malaysia, even with Lee as its prime minister.

Hope that helps again

FirstStooge (talk) 06:05, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

POD in Malaya or POD in Indonesia? FirstStooge (talk) 06:27, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

You don't need to bother about Nasution if you want to make the coup never happened. The coup happened because the fall of Sukiman Wiryosanjoyo administration due the signing of Mutual Security Act with the U.S government. The Sukiman administration supported by Masyumi and Socialist Party (PSI). After Sukiman resigned, new administration under Wilopo supported by Nationalist Party (PNI) while the Ministry of Defense and the Army still dominated by pro-PSI officers. The opposition of the Army over PNI-dominated government and its policy over military that triggered the coup. Nasution was a leading general at the time and he only behaved like in OTL when the pride of Army hurted by the government.

Just have Tungku Abdul Rahman never took over the leadership of UMNO and get the Malay Nationalist Party (PKMM) or Hizbul Muslimin grew bigger in Malaya, Malaysia (or maybe Malaya) will governed by more progressive figures, such as Dr. Burhanuddin Hilmy and it was possible for Lee to get the position as the Malaysian prime minister.

Thank you and I am expect more about your timeline

FirstStooge (talk) 07:14, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...I see you already did that. Nevermind, keep writing, comrade... FirstStooge (talk) 01:34, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

Ming Dynasty Family
Hey, I'm afraid I can't be of much help when it comes to Ming dynasty history. Although I have a general overview of Ancient and Imperial China and the key events of the times, my fields of expertise lie mostly in late-Qing, revolutionary and present Chinese history. Since I don't want to make guesstimations, I hope you find someone else to help you out with Zheng China. Good luck with your althist! --XterrorX (talk) 16:28, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Zheng China
I cannot posting it to the page you are directed, beacuse there is no any page named "Colonization and Conquest (Zheng China), only page I found is "Colonization and Conflict (Zheng China)" instead...

Of course they are not going around those time, they are a still part of Majapahit tributaries around early 1400. Malacca only named after mid-1400s.

I agree with our superior on this wiki (Lordganon), you are too bit exaggerating about China in this timeline. As I said before, China is a society that never has any colonial motives and its expedition is merely about to getting richer and wealthier. The Chinese loved to trade and collect the money (a little bit of stereotype, you know?), instead exploiting the land and conquered its neighbor, or even search for another lands to live.

The Empire of China is the empire of wealth, not the empire of land. They believed they are a civilized nation and a military and brutal conquer considered as a barbaric way that only do by barbaric nations too (Mongols, Manchus, Japanese...) They believing to be choose by the gods to live in the middle of the world (China) and live outside their homeland considered low and only for the poor people who seeking work that they being getting rejected in their own homeland.

FirstStooge (talk) 02:59, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Then how do I make this more plausible? Hlanus (talk) 03:05, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I have made some changes to the page "Colonization and Conflict", and I will try to incorporate all your suggestions. But remember, while China offically distained the idea of colonization and preferred trade and tribute for her power, her people still established colonies through the area, as Singapore and various colonies in Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia have proved. Here, I had the Chinese Empire expand its commerce to pay for the Yongle Emperor's extravagent projects, as well as forge a more merchant-friendly interpretation, like during the Southern Song Dynasty, which was one of the more commercially active times in Chinese history. In a sense, this is China that is more dependent on vibrant trade than in our timeline, because trade is (or as far as I know) the fastest way to make a quick buck, which is exactly why the Confucians scorned merchants, who lived off the labor of others and did not produce anything themselves. To protect trade, a strong navy is required, as the fastest transport routes are overseas, which means that the ships should have a strong logistics base.

I hope this shows where I think the timeline is going. Hlanus (talk) 04:44, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

It is good to retain your concept of Chinese colonization. The Chinese (not China) DID colonized Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia, even they established the Lanfang Republic in Western Borneo in 18th century which was a tributary state of Qing Dynasty. They DID has the idea of colonization, but it was not same with the colonization in European concept.

If you want the Empire to protect the merchants, change their traditional belief first, especially the Confucianism FirstStooge (talk) 11:41, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

I thought I already did that in the page "China's Accension". 14:01, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus (talk)Hlanus

Yes..but it was absolutely an ASB... FirstStooge (talk) 14:51, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

How so? Anyway, I edited the page with the Emperor trying to cut costs and increase profits through an experiment with empowering the merchants. If it works, then it should help the Empire promote and protect the merchants in the way I envisioned. Also, I put off the campaign against the Mongols, figuring it would take roughly 25-30 years for China to develop the military and economic might to take them on. Hlanus (talk) 21:43, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

How?

"On September 7, 1424, Zhu Gaoxi is crowned the Hongxi Emperor. His first order is to cease the voyages of the Treasure Ships and let them rot, despite the pleas of the court eunuchs. That night, a strange phenomena (most likely ball lightning) strikes the Emperor's quarters and sets it aflame. The Emperor, his Empress and virtually all his sons, perish in the flames, alongside key Confucian scholars." (China's Ascension. Heaven Judgement: 1:1-4)

That's what we called as an ASB...

What page it is? FirstStooge (talk) 00:58, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well how else do I explain the persistence of the Treasure Ships? Zhu Gaoxi is at this point pretty hell bent on ceasing the voyages, and the Confucians are well-behind him. The Treasure Fleet voyages also cost a lot and the coincidence of several natural disasters, like floods and famine, have convinced the Chinese that Heaven wants the fleets to cease. With all this in mind, I see no reason why Zhu Gaoxi would suddenly change his mind and allow them to persist. The only thing I could come up with that was even slightly plausible was if he died in a freak accident right after his order, which would appear to be Heaven's judgement on him. The onyl other thing would have been if his half-brother launched a coup, but that would have led to civil war and China would have been weakened, not strengthened.

The only other thing I have is if the Yongle Emperor invested in the fleet only and not his other projects, which were part of his plan to bloster his legitimacy, seeing as he took the throne from his nephew with the help of the eunuchs, for which he awarded them tremendous, even unprecedented, influence, which the Confucians resented. With all this in mind, it seemed the only thing that would convince the court to keep them was if the most vocal critics were killed in a freak accident that could be interpreted as Heaven's intervention.

That's my reasoning. 68.231.174.243 03:04, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Content
LG, please.

As a regular user, you hold no powers for deletion, etc. The most you can do is "undo" the changes he does, or edit them out manually.

You've also told him to stop already.

At this point, I would suggest leaving a note on his talk page to stop doing it. If that doesn't work, let me know, and I'll tell him.

Past that... The only things I can do are block him, or "protect" the page (which also bars you from editing it), or you can tell him to not edit it any longer.

If you have any questions or anything about your timeline or anything, don't hesitate to send me a note.

Lordganon (talk) 01:58, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

No, you are not wasting time.

Your PoD, actually, is very good. Not something to worry about. Only thing there is that you overstate the impact of his death slightly - but even that to some extent is good.

An accident is the way you have to go - you are very right about the effects of a coup.

Lordganon (talk) 03:33, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Here's what I have in mind instead. The next Emperor decides to keep the fleet, but cuts down on spending by restricting it to trade and coastal defence, and the ships bring back money instead of exotica. The Emperor also ends the war in Vietnam, allowing him to pull out his troops and recycle them to shore up the northern frontier as well as put men back to work on farms and workshops, allowing China to produce more trade goods. He also stops the construction of the capital of Beijing, prefering Nanjing for its access to trade and keeps Beiping as a military post, which is what it was under the Yongle Emperor decided to move, both to deter the Mongols as well as preserve his life (after a few assassination attempts). On the fleet's voyages, which do not occur for several years afterward, as China reinvigorates her economy, they bring merchants to gather economic info as well as use their skills to maximize the profits. These voyages, however, while produce enough of a profit to impress the Confucians and allow them to give more leeway to the merchants, will not in one trip pay for an all-out invasion of Mongolia or Manchuria, so the Emperor is resigned to a long preparatory term, perhaps 20-30 years, to build up his cavalry and treasury.

Any further exploration or colonization will probably have to be done under his successors, if they are under the right influence and if the Mongols are sufficiently pacified. Is this more plausible? Or is more required? 68.231.174.243 03:43, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Slightly rude to respond on one's own talk page.

Entirely stopping the construction of Beijing is a bit far - he'd just scale it back some. A city there would still be useful for the stated purposes, but him moving the capital makes less sense, so it would not need to be so big.

Profits are not going to change the minds of the Confucians. It's a religious and cultural thing, remember. All the profits are going to do is have moderates and everyone else be less inclined to agree with such opinions.

Actually, sending fleets further afield - though far smaller than the treasure voyage fleets - would still be possible in his reign. Even getting to Europe, for that matter. Just needs toning down overall.

Lordganon (talk) 04:15, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

No worries. Now sign in, lol.

The Song also were forced by events to do that - it was the only way to afford their existence. Didn't mean they liked it.

I really cannot see it reverting back to that previous ideal.

Lordganon (talk) 04:56, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Around the Cape.

You have to remember China was well aware about Europe and its desires. Just as much, in fact, as the nations between the two. They just have no ability to do anything about it. Your changes help with that, to some degree.

Yes, Egypt is about as close as you can get. But they definitely would not be able to establish a base there. Same reasons as why trade was lessening over the Silk Road. I could see some sort of trading posts in NW India, maybe - that would shorten the trip for trading.

In Easternized World, it's expansion by land for the sake of expansion. That would go over far better. And if you look at the furthest reaches of the Chinese Empire, not as much of a stretch as you'd think. Remember, too, that a lot of it would be tribes submitting to Chinese rule, not so much China actually occupying it. The opposition is not on a rough parity with them, either. Look at the long-term effects for China in that timeline, too.

Lordganon (talk) 05:51, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

The Cape is probably too far away for it to be sustainable. That it took the Europeans two centuries of going past the Cape to establish a post there is pretty telling.

You're talking about northern India. NW India is more so the present state of Gujarat.

Moves to try to secure more of the Silk Road would not be impossible either.

As you have argued yourself, they couldn't afford such expansion in your timeline.

Calvary are just not something China used all that much - and they expanded westwards into Central Asia reasonably enough without it a few times in Chinese history. Just need to be able to afford it.

Lordganon (talk) 08:37, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the clarification. I know I need to make this plausible, but there is one little thing I want to do: in otl, Zhu Gaoxi, the Yongle Emperor's second son, was noted to be a brilliant tactical thinker and military man, and I want to give him a chance to shine in my timeline. I figure the Chinese shore up their treasury, reform their army (perhaps incorporating the policies of Yue Fei or someone like him), and launch a campaign to end the Mongol threat, probably not now but much later. I figure that if they cut spending to the minimum and conduct trade overseas with multiple partners, they should have enough within 30 years or so. Would that be a reasonable amount of time? 68.231.174.243 08:50, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

The Mongol threat really would not go away - more like they pacify it for a period of time. Just not possible to conquer a people of that nature easily. Besides, as you've noted, the Mongols were severely divided at that point, and likely to remain that way.

Sooner than 30 years. They did launch attacks over the wall pretty often, remember. You're just talking about it being on a larger scale than usual.

Lordganon (talk) 08:59, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

I kinda figure that if the Chinese can incorporate the Mongols somehow, as they did in "Easternized World", then they would have a tremendous advantage as they would have the Mongols working WITH them instead of AGAINST them. Also, when I look at the map, the only real solution to the Ming's northern frontier is conquest. I doubt they can withdraw any further without risking a resurrection of the Golden Horde (Genghis Khan's army), and the maintenance of the border was a constant financial drain. How did the Manchus win over the Mongols, besides waiting for them and the Ming to wear each other down that is? Perhaps the Chinese could implement their methods as well? 68.231.174.243 09:04, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

The man choose prudence otl several times - and the difference in the oceans would be noticeable. He'd turn back.

The Manchu vassalized the Mongols, and kept them in line though alliances and marriages - basically playing the tribes against each other. Along with this, they established a few military positions, and over centuries put more authority in the area slowly. In the process they put themselves in a position of economic advantage.

It's basically the only way to do it - and the work more or less gets reset as soon as the dynasty falls, which will happen eventually. That's what happened more or less when the Manchu fell otl. About what happened in Easternized World too.

The northern defenses are expensive, true - but cheaper than having to defend the territory, in many ways, north of it. With a finished wall, so long as no one is let in things should be ok. Because after the Mongols, you have more and more tribes, needing the same process. Impossible? No. Very hard? Yes.

Lordganon (talk) 09:20, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Not a realistic plan for the most part - most they could do is get the Mongols to "accept" Chinese authority. Which means that so long as the dynasty is stable, they won't attack... much.

The Manchu were far from the first to employ that strategy. The various rulers of China before them did the same thing.

Arabs won't know anything about the Portuguese or what they are up to. Even more so they would not know anything about their ships. Different oceans, remember.

Most people in China would barely have noticed anything about the new developments, other than that it ran against their beliefs. It would be several generations before their opinions started to reverse.

The sons of his sons, nothing to worry about. And as for any surviving sons - likely minors somewhere - easy enough to dispose of.

Truthfully, I would not expect much opposition in that regard, especially in light of how his brother died. They do take the "Mandate of Heaven" bit seriously, remember.

He'd be emperor. And surviving descendants of his brother would make for, as you've written, a good attempted coup.

Lordganon (talk) 08:39, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Good enough way to deal with the crisis.

His father being removed of his mandate in such a manner would more or less mean that his sons have no right to it.

No one would argue against rebels being put to death in that era.

You have the situation with his nephew correct. They do have many descendants still alive today, for that matter.

They would not fear it the "end of the world." That concept is a myth - not a soul at the time believed that. Same goes for that "world is flat" nonsense.

The capital of Gujarat was Ahmedabad, not Surat. The Sultan was also far too old by that time to travel - he would die in 1442.

The Chinease would not establish a post on the mainland - you put the reasons against it, which are very solid and were used otl, further up the page - but on an island of some sort.

The island of Diu, which the Portuguese gained for that purpose otl in 1535, would be very likely. Go with it. They would be able to have a fort, a garrison, and effective control over the island. Far more secure.

Paying off the local ruler to allow a presence would go over better than that. Even in the east such an arrangement was common.

You miss in all of this that Zheng would have died in 1433, not over ten years later.

Mongol raids would not have stopped during talks. Best it would manage there is that the government doesn't sanction them for a while. That'd resume a few weeks after the talks fall through. Don't forget that the Mongols have gunpowder too.

Lordganon (talk) 03:40, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

The man was in his 60s and died of old age by most accounts - he'd die in 1433 either way. In this era, no way to change that one. Have his nephew do his deeds after that point.

The government of the Sultanate would not have went to Surat to talk to them - the Chinese would have had to go to the capital. I realize they would have wanted to stay on the coast, but they would not have much choice here.

Sounds about right with the Mongols.

The Europeans are probably going to start hearing rumors right about now, about the Chinese fleets. Expect their exploration to be slightly ahead of otl.

Lordganon (talk) 08:56, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

They really aren't going to even think of building a town there. If Europeans, who commonly did such things, took centuries to do it, why on earth would the Chinese, who didn't really do those things, do it?

Chimps and Orangutans are quite obviously different - they would not get named that.

Not at all possible for them to get inland and find, or even hear, of gorillas.

Portugal would not be "determined to face the Ming Dynasty on equal footing" - as I've pointed out, they were, and even were ahead in some areas. You've got the base concept right - they would put more effort into their improvements - but not the reasons.

Lordganon (talk) 08:56, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but these Chinese aren't the otl ones that "discovered" them - and they are first seeing them for themselves here without others doing so first. The names would change.

I was only partially correct about the gorillas - there is no way possible for them to find them inland. It's simply impossible for them to get that far inland. However, there is a population in Africa closer to the coast. It's unlikely, given where they live, that the explorers would encounter them though.

I'm saying that the concept of a port, town, or whatever wouldn't even occur to them. It's just not so much the Chinese way to outright colonize.

The Europeans didn't really even know that Zheng He explored like he did - rumors is even a stretch in many ways. About the only very solid info Europe had on China is from Polo. No one in Portugal traveled there overland. Basically, they are going to hear tales of some Chinese merchants arriving in ports - nothing more, and even that may be pushing it.

Yes, otl the first European coming from around the Cape came to the Indian Ocean in 1488, though went no further than otl Eastern Cape Province - De Gama was the first to go further, in 1497. Starting in the 1480s the Portuguese also had many active spies working in East Africa and India, investigating the situation and preparing for the eventual arrival of their ships.

Yes, Jorge Alvares in 1513 was the first.

The Chinese actions are definitely going to accelerate this, however.

Prior to Polo, no one had really made that trip since Roman times.

No, he'd have to turn back. Even if his repair ships were undamaged, he would not be able to manage it. With half of them gone, they have to turn back - if half of your resources are gone, after all, logic dictates that it would take that same amount to get back, more or less.

You've got the right king of Benin.

The Swahili would be utterly useless for any language north of the Kongo on that side of Africa.

That's too far for the scouts to have gone - any contact with European sailors on this voyage is probably too much. Would only be expeditions that far south at that time anyways - not ordinary merchants.

Portuguese, and any other Europeans, would not have given up their charts. The idea that any would do that is entirely unheard of.

Chinese aren't going to hear any rumors of Portuguese naval expansion. Nor are they at all likely to care - the attitude of later dynasties about anyone not China being inferior did not come out of nowhere, remember.

Dakar still did not exist at that date.

Portuguese are not going to be near as fearful of the Chinese as you have them. Would not think a large gap exists, either.

You have the fighting in Albania right - for more, look here.

The leader of Oyo would most likely not have been Shango - he was some sort of temporary ursurper. They also had six rulers between 1400 and 1500. At a guess, the King was probably Aganju at that time.

Using the native terms, some sort of word for "Great" may be the likely name for the Niger.

Lordganon (talk) 07:15, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

The difference between the two languages is something akin to the difference in the Indo-European language family between Nepali and Spanish. Essentially, mutually unintelligible without a very long period of time learning the new language. Definitely not going to get it in your timeframe.

That's a mild exaggeration of what Polo reported.

No gap would be perceived. Most you're going to get is them being jumpier, but that may even be too much.

Even getting Arab maps of the Med. is unlikely. The Arab sailors the Chinese trade with, and the ones the Europeans trade with, are not the same.

I would expect more voyages, though smaller. More for trade than exploration, and not going past the African kingdoms until they encounter Portuguese going south.

They would not bypass the Oho.

A transliteration is likely.

Portuguese and other western powers did just that otl with the Ottoman wars. Little to no change.

That Turkish "crusade" was a official Portuguese addition to the Venetian war, rather than the informal ones prior to that.

More the third option with the Mongols than anything. Probably try to make the fighting last longer. After all, if they fight each other, than they aren't a problem for China. Enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing. They'd still supply him, but not enough for him to easily win.

The Sahelian kingdoms are just as far from Portugal as China is from the Indies.

China would barely enter the "radar" of the Portuguese.

They are well aware of just how far the distances are - Columbus was more or less the only one who did not have a real clue. Anyone who claimed otherwise would be ignored, as Columbus largely was.

The other Muslim states would not do that.

Portuguese would not be able to send that many ships - heck, they may well be more ships than they have total. More or less right about what the troops would do after finding out things in the east.

Lordganon (talk) 07:54, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

They would be neutral - i.e. they don't help either side. Benefits them to have both fighting each other.

Exaggerate all they want, if they do it with distance not a soul will believe them. I cannot even begin to emphasize just how little attention anyone who does that will get. There is a very good reason why Columbus was thought to be a "loon."

Change the word "values" to something more indicative of it being trading items, too.

Let's just say that the Portuguese had a significant naval advantage otl - they are going to tear up Castile even worse atl.

Italian states would not agree to help them, by and large, either. Competition, remember.

Yes, "Oyo."

1500s sounds about right. I would expect an encounter somewhere in the Indian Ocean prior to then, however.

Lordganon (talk) 11:12, May 7, 2013 (UTC)

Castille's navy was heavily damaged compared to the Portuguese navy in the otl war - Portuguese improvements would merely make their ships take less damage in a couple battles. Most, if not all, losses the Portuguese had were either from being vastly outnumbered, or fire backfiring on them in one battle.

Those improvements, however, and the need for Castille to implement their own, should make it so they cannot afford Columbus. Really could not otl - this would be mildly worse.

England was, by some accounts, close to coming to an agreement with his brother otl when the Spanish Kingdoms agreed to finance him. I suspect that Columbus would sail for England slightly later than in otl, on a track more in line with Cabot's otl route.

Yes, him getting Spanish backing definitely got help from their desire to make him go away, lol. Both their knowledge, and that of their advisers, saying he was horribly wrong, and that he would probably die out there, didn't hurt that one. They never expected to see him again after he left.

As an fyi - no matter the naval changes, Portugal won't win that war. Just outnumbered overall on land.

Lordganon (talk) 05:21, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

A bit too long to rebuild their fleet.

Yes, Portuguese getting there slightly earlier makes sense - they have a touch more motivation.

The Reconquista would not be delayed.

Columbus would continue to try to press the Spanish monarchs - his brother would succeed with talks elsewhere. Heck, Columbus didn't press anyone outside of Italy or Iberia - his brother worked elsewhere.

Voyage west in 1493 or 1494, probably 1493. Granada falls as otl.

Large amounts already known, have read too many historical texts to say exactly where. Wikipedia and Google for some details.

Lordganon (talk) 06:43, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Thought I would leave you a note that Alexlee8991 has been permanently blocked for sockpuppeting - you don't have to worry about him again, lol. Lordganon (talk) 11:11, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

...You're going to want to go over the battle that new user added with a fine-tooth comb, H. Defies military logic a few times. Lordganon (talk) 02:26, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Far too effective. Without rifling and longer barrels, the effect would be minimal. Something noticeable, but not worth a ton of effort to change to.

That was more or less what I thought of the battle too.

Lordganon (talk) 03:22, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, they wouldn't really look into it until then.

Matchlocks didn't get further east than Persia overland for a variety of reasons, but mostly that the trade overland was very minimal by that point, again for several reasons. Atl, it'd be slightly better, but still not good - they won't see any of those guns overland. It'll still be through the Portuguese that they get them.

Lordganon (talk) 03:56, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Probably the best outcome of the Mongol conflict for the Chinese.

At latest, early 1488. I'd imagine it would be more so when John II comes to the throne in 1481, if not earlier, but Dias' voyage in early 1488 would be the absolute latest.

Lordganon (talk) 09:00, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

...You misunderstand me. I did not mention Bartholomew as the discoverer - that role falls to his brother.

Bartholomew was looking for financing to so that his brother could make the voyage. Bartholomew wasn't really even a sailor, but a mapmaker - calling him an "explorer" is a stretch, at best. He'd accompany his brother if a more northern kingdom finances it, but no more than that.

The Netherlands was still more or less independent, though ruled by a Hapsburg, until Duke Charles II ascended to the HRE throne as Charles V in 1519. But they were in no shape whatsoever, or at all desired, to launch such a voyage. Their ambitions were more or less confined to the HRE.

King Henry VII of England would pay for the voyage, for reasons noted previously.

Lordganon (talk) 02:49, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct.

Sounds about right for the Portuguese, though they would not go to Diu, but to southern India. There'd be more interest in their goods than you lead on, as well - only China would not be interested in them.

China would barely register them as a treat - and rightly so. Only their Navy would have any sort of advantage at that time, and they are limited in number at that point. Reasons for that should be obvious, I imagine.

They'd buy them direct.

That would not motivate them to sail east. News of the discovery of the continent, however, might be more motivating, but I have to even doubt that. That'd be taking the exploration and blowing it out or proportion, I think.

Lordganon (talk) 04:19, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

You'd have the same problems with silver mines in the new world. Silver mines in the Americas during that era were few and far between, as well. Could see them sailing over there to buy silver directly from those in power, after they are discovered, however.

European merchants would just sell to them directly.

There's a big difference between India, and Southeast Asia. So long as the outpost at Diu is not attacked, they'd have no problems west of Malacca.

Remember, Malacca and other Southeast Asian states were, in Chinese eyes, "vassals" of the Emperor. That's why China hated it. The Indian nations, nothing of the sort.

Lordganon (talk) 07:32, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Both. And when the silver comes into play in the Americas, they'll start trading with whoever controls it.

...None of the above are why they "hated it." The Portuguese conquest of Malacca was "hated" because the Chinese considered it subservient to them, though realistically the vassal bit was only in name. And that's why so long as Diu is left alone, they won't care about India too much.

Lordganon (talk) 07:51, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

With most of the Imperial Court opposed, if Zheng Jun and his cohorts were to do that, it would be borderline treason. They'd not take the risk. Especially so with aiding them to establish a means to compete with the Chinese merchants. Lordganon (talk) 12:09, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

There would be no "confrontation." The Chinese relationship with their "vassals" would hold more meaning here, and they would have some naval power to actually back it up. The Portuguese aren't fools, they would not push it. Otl Indonesia, however... they'd have free reign for the most part.

The Emperor and his court have declared it unnecessary - making any moves to the contrary to be treason. They simply would not do it, in any form. Even if - and especially - they are are correct, they would be executed. You've already established him as being intelligent, so they'd would not be foolish enough to do it.

That new user that added to your page.... his addition is bull, quite honestly. Columbus would not go south, Spain wouldn't give him the time of day and the Portuguese would be chilly about it at best, the ships would not have those names... it goes on.

You still haven't improved that earlier battle with the Mongols, fyi.

Lordganon (talk) 10:40, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Exploring for England, such a route is more or less impossible. He'd have some winds to the north, much like Cabot, to use. Not as much, but still some.

The merchants of Bristol, whom Columbus had been in communication with, knew a great deal about the North Atlantic. There was also an old legend of an island there, based on Norse explorations and observations of the seamounts (the fabled Hy-Brasil) at Porcupine Bank, which would offer further encouragement.

While not perfect with his own ideas, between them, those who would be the backers of the expedition, and the conditions in the Atlantic, he'd go a more northern route. Picture a route like Cabot's.

The fishermen knew of the Grand Banks by that point as well, and the idea that some of them may have seen North America, while unlikely, is not impossible.

The ships he used otl were named by their owners. Nor are the names that are remembered their actual names - those are mere nicknames given to them by their owners, based on the names of the owners and/or religion. The actual names, while largely lost to history, would have been that of Spanish saints, like the vast majority of Spanish ships at the time.

Can't really guess the names - all I can say for sure is that they would definitely not be the same as his otl ships.

If you don't care for that, you'd have to have Cabot go - if it helps, he'd leave early atl.

The numbers and gunpowder weren't my problem with that battle - my problem is that the tactics of both sides are, quite honestly, idiotic. Poor military strategy, at best.

No one in his crew would know any Hindi, let alone Chinese. These were not languages known in Europe at the time, even with your changes. Arabic, not impossible, but still very much so a stretch.

Lordganon (talk) 10:19, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Greek and Latin are just as unlikely as Arabic, and both would be utterly useless in Asia. Remember, as well, with Greek, that Asia had been exposed to Ancient Greek, not the modern Greek that had arose by that point. Not that even Ancient Greek got to East Asia, mind.

He wanted to find Asia - the Spice Islands were part of the goal, but not the goal itself. Remember, far more to Asia than those islands. Even with Columbus' version of the distance to Asia, sailing southwest from England to there would have been suicidal. Even taking North America into account that is the case. For that matter, it would mean sailing right into currents, not even cutting across them.

If England has Columbus sail, Cabot would not follow him - he'd explore somewhere else. His otl third voyage would be the first he'd do atl.

Anyone sailing for England would go west, not south in any form. If you think that means Columbus would not do it - I believe he would do it, myself - then have Cabot sail instead.

Common practice in western Europe at the time was to name ships after their sponsors, monarchs, or religious icons. The former two were more popular in England at the time. That being said, it was far more common in England than elsewhere to name them after other things - Cabot's ship, for instance, is believed to have been named after his wife.

"Mary Rose," for instance, was named for the Virgin Mary and the Tudor house (i.e. the King)

Yes, I'm aware it's not your battle. Nor am I disputing the overall outcome. But the "flow" of the battle... most of it is just horrid tactics. Rewrite it - you don't have a bad mind for it, overall.

Lordganon (talk) 05:52, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Cabot would sail later and explore otl New England. That's what he aimed for on that voyage.

Fishermen in the British Isles, Western France, Iceland, Navarra, and NW Spain knew about it. Columbus wouldn't know about it on his own, as it was kept fairly secretive - he may find out after arrival in Bristol, however. Same goes for Vinland.

Stopping in Iceland would be counter-productive, at best - and with ice, very dangerous. The population is also so small at this point that it would not be very useful for supplies.

Vinland at this time is just legends - no one is sure if they are real. The settlements in North America are also long gone, with the ones in Greenland little better. They also have no idea where these could possibly be. Wood and food would be long rotted into dust.

Columbus took a Jew who spoke Arabic with him otl - didn't do any good, and the very idea was flawed, but he did. He thought that he could communicate in Hebrew with Jewish merchants in East Asia - not that there was any, or had ever been any. Man had some odd ideas about the lost tribes of Israel. Not happening here - not going to find Jews in England at this date.

The Portuguese would have had people who spoke Arab with them - would have done them a lot of good.

But, explorers going west more or less just took shots in the dark. Until they captured the natives, they had no way of good communication, and didn't even try. Columbus was the only one who actually attempted to take an interpreter, and it was a piss-poor one at that.

Picture would not need replacing. Still works, so long as the Mongols charge at all. That change means a far better tactic, as well.

Cabot would not have supported anything - the Bristol merchants had the ear of the King, not him. King would likely not have had an audience with him.

Would not be newly-built ships. Remove anything in brackets as well.

Columbus' ideas about the east mesh with the northern route. The base logic of why Cabot sailed west still applies, even with Columbus' horribly wrong worldview - he'd not really need convincing.

Lordganon (talk) 08:18, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Fishermen sailed west just like that all the time, and that is exactly what John Cabot did as well. Sailing west like that happened often. Sailing to Iceland is the thing no one did.

Greenland had been out of any contact for longer than that, though they were well aware of what had happened there.

The Greenlanders did nothing of the sort.

So, there'd be nothing to really find out. And what could be found out would have already been known, as the English were well aware of those parts.

Only thing about Vinland known was through legends. Nothing other than a legend of some sort of island to the west existed - nothing about what it contained was included.

Not quite an accurate statement about Greenland's trees, either. Not that they would have clue, even remotely, where the trees or the ruins of settlements would be, and they'd be full of hostile Dorset anyway.

Come to think of it, Columbus would probably assume that Vinland was Asia anyway, since that would fit his theories about the distance to Asia rather nicely, and the legend would even back up his claims somewhat.

The English had caravels well prior to that date, which were better for exploration than carracks, and more advanced. Only advantage carracks had on them was cargo capacity. You also really can't rebuild the older ships into carracks - more expensive and time-consuming than just building a new one outright. Not that "rebuilt" was the word you used at all, mind.

The English Navy is irrelevant - no vessels from it would go anywhere. None of Columbus' ships otl were part of the Spanish navies, remember. Private ships only.

Lordganon (talk) 05:31, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Did not dispute their trade in Walrus - just the locations. They got their walrus ivory from around their colonies, no further.

By a date prior to 1400, there was little to no trade, and within a few decades, everything ceased permanently.

Fair point - while the Dorset are the ones that did most of the damage to the colonies, the Inuit are the ones that finished things.

Columbus would believe the Banks to be near Asia, not Asia itself. And they would not see mountains, let alone snow-capped ones.

Lordganon (talk) 06:41, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

Grand Banks. It's an area of seabed east and southeast of Newfoundland, very large in size, that was, and still is to some extent, filled with fish. It's said that when John Cabot first sailed though it, there was so many cod in the water that it actually slowed down his ship. It is something that English sailors, especially those from Bristol, knew about prior to the 1490s.

The island of Newfoundland is lightly forested, and has no tundra whatsoever. You are mistaking the island for the Canadian province, which are different things - the province has a large mainland area that is like you describe, but the island is nothing like that.

The new version of that battle is far better - though do not forget to remove the old battle. As to the Mongols retreat... think about what happens to infantry that try to attack cavalry out in the open. It's not pretty.

Lordganon (talk) 09:31, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

The "shame" from failing, along with the increased Chinese supplies to Amasanj and Khan no doubt losing more men out of the deal than Amasanj, would mean they stay roughly the same in power.

Columbus would find land, and sail back soon thereafter, having "proved" his theory. On his next two voyages, likely the only others he makes like in otl, he would sail south along the coast, and into the Gulf of Saint Lawrence.

He would likely encounter the Beothuk.

There would still be interest in colonization - fishermen wanting better access to the cod, people wanting farms, people hunting for gold.... list goes on. I would even expect that the otl Maritimes get settled sooner than otl here. The English were far more into actually settling than the rest of Europe, remember.

They would know somewhat of the extent within a couple years. Between Columbus' other two voyages, Cabot, and others they have some idea by 1500 at the latest.

I would anticipate Brazil getting found by the Portuguese around 1500, like otl, as well.

Wholly different names would not be shocking for the two continents. Would not be shocked if the name "Vinland" got resurrected in some form, too.

Soon as Columbus returned otl, the news spread by ship, person, and horse. There is literally no way to stop it.

Treaty of Tordesillas would not exist. The English and Portuguese, as allies to some extent, would also not need such a document. The mere discovery of the New World did far more to encourage exploration than the treaty ever did - heck, that document discouraged it.

China would not hear of it for a couple years, at best. Be a few more years before they caught wind that it wasn't somewhere in Asia, too.

Spain would have no rights. The treaty only existed because of the events of 1492 otl.

I'd imagine that Spain would find the Caribbean, mind.

Columbus would try for a dialogue with the natives, and abduct some like otl.

Lordganon (talk) 06:15, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

With the North and South being discovered before the middle, two entirely different names would be likely. Columbia or some sort of adaptation of "Vinland" for the north, and either Brazil or something based on the name of Pedro Álvares Cabral, who like otl is the likely Portuguese discoverer of Brazil.

The continents being named more or less the same thing otl is an oddity, and a different pattern of exploration should change that.

Agreed on the English - fishing colonies started around that date in northeastern North America would be where they start, much like otl Newfoundland.

There is very ample room for profit in Brazil - though their preoccupation with the east would mean a couple of decades with only de jure occupation and rule, not de facto.

The Aztec ruling family seems to have been resilient, age-wise - Moctezuma would likely still be alive even a few years later.

Disease would have more time to wreak havoc - I'd actually guess the conquest would be easier, as the diseases hit prior to the first attacks, not the second.

No way the Aztecs get such a boost. Really, I doubt the Chinese government would even believe the news of the New World for a while.

Columbus would not find out the name of the native tribe on the first go-around.

Lordganon (talk) 08:42, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Rodrigo de Bastidas would be the first Spanish explorer - Leon was not the sailing type, more of a "land" explorer, so while he would be en explorer atl, he would not be the one to do this.

I honestly doubt China would do any colonizing. It rubs against their attitudes in so many ways, even with your changes. Some trading posts, akin to Russians in North America otl, would be probable however.

Brazil and a more English version of Vinland would work.

Native tribes, outside of North America, weren't armed by the rival states.

I would guess that the French end up with the otl Gulf Coast, and Florida - not just Louisiana, thought I'd wager the colony would still have that name, lol. More of a split in the Caribbean than otl, too.

Columbus would not name the bay after himself, nor would his crew. It would be named for a religious figure, or something to do with the crown. I figure that naming it for the Tudor house would work. The next explorers to arrive naming the river after him would not be impossible, however, since the only way to explore it means going overland unless you have the right ships. Even on his third voyage it is unlikely he would have such a ship - he'd go no further than otl Quebec City.

They would see the natives. This era is prior to the "abandonment" phase - disease had not forced them to abandon their homes yet. They would make contact on many occasions with the natives. The next voyages, however... not so much.

Word would spread as soon as the first voyage returns, not the second batch.

That Ninja guy added a bunch of stuff, fyi - and it's bad again. Might want to just tell him to leave it alone, lol.

Lordganon (talk) 23:03, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

All bad. Basically ignores what you've written, and discussed.

The Micmac were not on the Maine coast - they only ever were in a very tiny part of Northern Maine.

They didn't abandon the coast outright - they moved into the woods, yes, but they still used the coast. They'd have been found.

More or less what I meant by the otl site of Quebec City - it is past that point where it starts to be problematic, though not impassable.

You need to remember, though that those "colonies" had nothing to do with government, and were far more so Chinese merchants moving around. And in China, the only way to establish something like this would be with government support - which would not come.

It would take them a long time to find any valuable minerals in western North America.

With how your story reads right now, it sounds like no one found anything out after the first voyage. It needs re-wording.

Lordganon (talk) 02:03, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that they would have a different attitude in that regard - but I could see more posts like Diu getting established in south/east Asia with a new dynasty.

Bigger trading posts, probable, though I doubt there would be prospectors.

Given Chinese arrangements in Asia, I would guess that they would work out some sort of vassal arrangement with tribes on/near the coast.

All of this probably concentrated in otl Oregon and California.

There are massive differences here - aside from the obvious ones with European colonization.

China won't go into the "shell" of otl - they will maintain power and influence. For instance, they would not give up Macau or Hong Kong here.

Nor would they get dominated by Europe. Aside from the turnover between dynasties, their power will be too much for any such shenanigans, and they will advance technologically. Not as fast as Europe, and probably toward a different end, since most of their fighting would be against "hordes," and not fighting like in Europe, but it would still advance.

As in China today, with forces on land, quantity has a quality all its own. Their navy would be more on par with Europe in the end, though unless they switch from the big ships they will eventually be at a large disadvantage.

Come to think of it, wouldn't be surprised if tech advanced slightly faster in this world.

Expect European encroachment on their "vassals" during the turnover. The actual posts like Diu would be fine, mind.

There is indeed a point to this.

The King wouldn't tell them not to take people. And you have it right - far as anyone today can determine, the Beothuk language was not all that similar to the languages spoken on the mainland to the south. Far as I understand it, the difference would be like the one between modern Latin and Romanian at best, and more like the difference between Welsh and Latin in all likelihood.

The Portuguese would need more justification than that to go southwest - while the trade winds would help them go south, it would also take them away from India. Remember, they do know where it is, and would not buy the English claims of world size or having found Asia.

Lordganon (talk) 04:29, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Re:Borneo
Luckily I am a Banjarese and I live in Banjarmasin now.

At that time, there are only one influential Hindu kingdom in Borneo: Kingdom of Kutai Kartanegara, the oldest kingdom in Indonesia in the area that known as East Kalimantan. Kutai was already established a trade link with China since the start of century. But, Kutai was not the only kingdom in Southern Borneo, there are also Negara Dipa and Negara Daha in the region that known as South Kalimantan (my province) and Tanjungpura in today area of West Kalimantan. Brunei only ruled the northern half, while Kutai in eastern half, Tanjungpura in southwestern half, Negara Dipa (and Negara Daha) in southeastern half, and independent Dayak tribes at the heart of the island and many left unconquered by those kingdoms. All of these kingdoms is the Malay ones and also traded with the Chinese even before Hinduism entered Nusantara.

Cirebon never involved in any competition with Majapahit...they established in 1552, not in 1400s.

FirstStooge (talk) 02:57, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, yes. Majapahit remained strong in Java although Islam already bloomed in its northern coast.

Your welcome :) FirstStooge (talk) 03:21, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Hitler and Aliens
I'm playing around with esoteric Nazism and Nazi occultism and have the first close encounter taking place between the Germans and so-called Pleiadians, who pose as the mythical Hyperborean Gods and win instant favor. The Nazis are indeed intimidated by the clash of civilizations and technology, but eager to serve and learn from their alien Gods. After the "end war", the victorious Axis powers engage in a race to establish themselves on the intergalactic scene and alliances are forged with an array of alien races (amongst them the Zeta Reticulan pictured). OTL shows that if the situation required it, Hitler was willing to cut deals with races originally perceived as "sub-Aryan" or plain different, judging from his liberal application of the title Ehrenarier and the roles his non-Germanic collaborators played in the Second World War. In my timeline this opportunism simply extends to a select number of extraterrestrials, once the initial shock of extraterrestrial/divine contact has subsided. --XterrorX (talk) 02:26, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

in·de·ci·pher·a·ble
Not un.

EoGuy (talk) 06:09, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Zheng China
What do you think about China contacing Europe and started some diplomatic relations with some of them?Alexlee8991 (talk) 12:47, April 22, 2013 (UTC) I think it will depend on the individual nations. Portugal and Spain will probably be resistant due to their claims to exclusive rights to all lands by order of Pope Nicholas. France, Britain, and the Dutch, on the other hand, will probably be more open because they want greater freedom of the seas, which China can provide for them. Another big player will be Russia, who will probably be antagonistic as well due to expansionist plans into Asia and the memory of the Tatars and the Golden Horde. Right now I'm stuck on what the Chinese will do in the Americas because as it is Yishiha and his fleet are off the coast of Peru in the early days of the Inca Empire, and I am not sure how they will proceed.--Hlanus (talk) 15:27, April 22, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

When do you go on alt history normally, so we can chat and I can ask you about Zheng China?Alexlee8991 (talk) 11:21, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

How about China returning to Europe and made an alliance with England and Dutch?Alexlee8991 (talk) 11:21, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

Do you think it will be plausible that the empeor organized a second expedition to mesoamerica with Shen Jun and Shen Lin and they went up the coast to California and found gold there, prompting a small colony?Alexlee8991 (talk) 11:21, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think those are quite plausible, especially if Spain and Portugal decided to try and form an alliance or even a national unity to increase their strength against China. If the British and the Dutch saw that as a threat, they could form an alliance with China to protect themselves and promote their own interests. I think it would also be plausible if the Emperor organized a second expedition to California to do a survey and perhaps form colonies. But, that all depends on what is going on elsewhere. As far as I know, China feels secure enough to undergo a second expedition, as all the other powers are either too distant, in the case of Muscovy, Portugal, and Spain, or too divided, in the case of the Timurid Dynasty, India, and Indonesia. In the case of Spain and Portugal, I am thinking of having them forge an alliance, which other nations might find threatening, meaning they invest more energy in preparing for war than anything else, perhaps a precursor to the 30 Years War. This war may or may not encompass Europe, so Muscovy may escape unscathed and go on to take advantage of Europe's divided state. In Persia, however, the Timurid Civil Wars are closing down, so they may also look to Europe for further expansion, perhaps colluding or colliding with the Ottomans. At the same time, the Timurids may look eastward to take a bite out of China or the weakened khanates composing Central Asia, either one of which could be seen as a threat to China, so they may not launch the second expedition. If you were in the shoes of the Timurids, which way would you go, north or west? This may determine the course of history. Hlanus (talk) 16:03, April 23, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I think we should let Amansaji beat Dayan Khan and China have another voyage to the West and East like in the original Yishiha's Ocean and Exploration and Cosolidation, but more plausible. Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 4:09,May 11, 2013 (UTC)Ninjasvswarriors

I guess Columbus may never be given the chance due to Castille's threat on land posed by Portugal and the monopoly of the sea beside North and West Africa, which will sink most, if not all Castille ships. Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 08:33, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

Can I make a page on literature and paste severla excerpts of some literary work from the era that I have in mind?Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 07:10, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Now, I will let England to begin naval improvements and begin sending warships to the Americas from 1505. China will send another fleet at 1490 and it will go to South Africa, cross the strait of Tiangfei, and meet the Portuguese, which have known and have a good relationship with China from their traders in India. Some firearms will be bought and they will return to China in about 1495. The emperor will begin some drills, perhaps testing the power, accuracy and loading time between muskets and hand cannons. Chinese mechanics may start studying muskets and build replicas. Also, the emperor will recognize the Portuguese superiority in North Africa, as well as hearing about the Americas from traders. By 1505, another Chinese fleet may go East, the place of the alleged Americas. They will meet the Incans and I guess we would copy some parts from the old "Exploration and Consolidation" and fix some of the ASB. The Incans may get some firarms and wouldn't lose to Pizarro or any similar Europeans in OTL. The sailors may continue North, drawing a rudimentary map and perhaps stop at a few places. They may land in OTL California and find gold, prompting a settlement there. Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 09:15, May 18, 2013 (UTC)

What do you think I should be working on in Zheng China and what do you think will be plausible new events?Ninjasvswarriors (talk) 13:48, May 19, 2013 (UTC)