User talk:Hlanus



Re: Lee's Malaysia
Hello, Hlanus, long time not see you :D

I'm live in Indonesia, you know?. BTW, I like the name of town where you live: Tempe.

Okay, let's discuss about your question:


 * Yes, if G 30 S movement never happened, there was a little possibility for Suharto to take over the power. By 1960s, Suharto was not even a top general. He was leading the General Offensive in Yogyakarta in 1949 and West Irian Campaign in 1962-1963, but still he is not so popular among the commoners. Sukarno only appointed Suharo and other generals that seemed loyal to him, such as Ahmad Yani, to avoid the possible hidden coup by more popular generals, such as Abdul Haris Nasution.


 * Nasution was the possible successor of Sukarno if the latter died because Nasution already at the top of military command and other generals would backed him into power to counter the influences of PKI on Indonesian politics. But, Sukarno, who afraid of any bloody power struggle after his death, viewed Nasution for being uncooperative toward any left-wing movements, not just PKI, but also Murba and Socialist Party. Sukarno predicted if the balance of power cannot achieved, that would be a civil war occured in Indonesia, the situation that already hampered Vietnam and Laos in 1960s. Not only Sukarno who did that, King Norodom Sihanouk also did a similar move in Cambodia, but unfortunately, Cambodia cannot avoid the civil war.


 * Unlike Sukarno, Suharto viewed Nasution would unwilling to steer Indonesia into more "pro-Western" and open the country's market to foreign investors. So, there are some issues that Suharto tried "to eliminate" him during the coup. Nasution successfully escaped the assassination during the coup, but the supports from the army already turned to Suharto who mobilized the army "to counter" the "communist rebellion" on the night of September 30.


 * You must know, the Indonesian Islamic parties already weakened in late 1950s and 1960s and the Islamists already lost their place in the power struggle and preferred to cooperate with the Army, instead to have the communists took over the power. And not only the Islamists, the traditional nationalists (mainly from Sundanese and Javanese ancestry), socialists (PSI) and non-PKI communists (Murba) already torn apart by communist infiltrations within their organisations. As result, only PKI and the Army there were left for "battle for power" in 1965.


 * So, the conclusion is:


 * 1) Without G 30 S movement, there will be Nasution on power
 * 2) With Nasution on power, the communists will attack first
 * 3) With the communists attack first, Indonesia will have a civil war
 * 4) With Indonesia in a civil war, a power struggles between Communists and non-Communists will spread across the region of Southeast Asia...including your ATL Malaysia
 * 5) In the end, all of Southeast Asia will succumbed into unrest and political instability for next 20 years.


 * Well, if you want Malaysia being a regional power under Lee, you must change the situation in Indonesia first with POD as early as in 1945 and as late as in 1958.

Hope that helps. (Sorry, if my English is so bad...)

FirstStooge (talk) 05:18, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

You must make sure the coup attempt of October 17, 1952 in Jakarta never happened. The effect of the coup attempt was everlasting and developed Sukarno negative view on parliamentary democracy. If the coup never happened, Sukarno will more positively looked upon the parliamentary system and the Masyumi Party, as the largest political group in Indonesia will simply have their position on the government cemented even when the Constitutional Assembly (Konstituante) failed to create new Indonesian constitution like happened in OTL. Sukarno will never dare to appoint the communists to the cabinet and PKI will stayed as largest opposition party in the Parliament, similarly with Japanese Communist Party during the Cold War. The Indonesian government that dominated mostly by the Islamist politician surely had more tolerant stance over Malaysia, even with Lee as its prime minister.

Hope that helps again

FirstStooge (talk) 06:05, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

POD in Malaya or POD in Indonesia? FirstStooge (talk) 06:27, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

You don't need to bother about Nasution if you want to make the coup never happened. The coup happened because the fall of Sukiman Wiryosanjoyo administration due the signing of Mutual Security Act with the U.S government. The Sukiman administration supported by Masyumi and Socialist Party (PSI). After Sukiman resigned, new administration under Wilopo supported by Nationalist Party (PNI) while the Ministry of Defense and the Army still dominated by pro-PSI officers. The opposition of the Army over PNI-dominated government and its policy over military that triggered the coup. Nasution was a leading general at the time and he only behaved like in OTL when the pride of Army hurted by the government.

Just have Tungku Abdul Rahman never took over the leadership of UMNO and get the Malay Nationalist Party (PKMM) or Hizbul Muslimin grew bigger in Malaya, Malaysia (or maybe Malaya) will governed by more progressive figures, such as Dr. Burhanuddin Hilmy and it was possible for Lee to get the position as the Malaysian prime minister.

Thank you and I am expect more about your timeline

FirstStooge (talk) 07:14, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...I see you already did that. Nevermind, keep writing, comrade... FirstStooge (talk) 01:34, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

Ming Dynasty Family
Hey, I'm afraid I can't be of much help when it comes to Ming dynasty history. Although I have a general overview of Ancient and Imperial China and the key events of the times, my fields of expertise lie mostly in late-Qing, revolutionary and present Chinese history. Since I don't want to make guesstimations, I hope you find someone else to help you out with Zheng China. Good luck with your althist! --XterrorX (talk) 16:28, April 23, 2013 (UTC)

Re: Zheng China
I cannot posting it to the page you are directed, beacuse there is no any page named "Colonization and Conquest (Zheng China), only page I found is "Colonization and Conflict (Zheng China)" instead...

Of course they are not going around those time, they are a still part of Majapahit tributaries around early 1400. Malacca only named after mid-1400s.

I agree with our superior on this wiki (Lordganon), you are too bit exaggerating about China in this timeline. As I said before, China is a society that never has any colonial motives and its expedition is merely about to getting richer and wealthier. The Chinese loved to trade and collect the money (a little bit of stereotype, you know?), instead exploiting the land and conquered its neighbor, or even search for another lands to live.

The Empire of China is the empire of wealth, not the empire of land. They believed they are a civilized nation and a military and brutal conquer considered as a barbaric way that only do by barbaric nations too (Mongols, Manchus, Japanese...) They believing to be choose by the gods to live in the middle of the world (China) and live outside their homeland considered low and only for the poor people who seeking work that they being getting rejected in their own homeland.

FirstStooge (talk) 02:59, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Then how do I make this more plausible? Hlanus (talk) 03:05, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

I have made some changes to the page "Colonization and Conflict", and I will try to incorporate all your suggestions. But remember, while China offically distained the idea of colonization and preferred trade and tribute for her power, her people still established colonies through the area, as Singapore and various colonies in Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia have proved. Here, I had the Chinese Empire expand its commerce to pay for the Yongle Emperor's extravagent projects, as well as forge a more merchant-friendly interpretation, like during the Southern Song Dynasty, which was one of the more commercially active times in Chinese history. In a sense, this is China that is more dependent on vibrant trade than in our timeline, because trade is (or as far as I know) the fastest way to make a quick buck, which is exactly why the Confucians scorned merchants, who lived off the labor of others and did not produce anything themselves. To protect trade, a strong navy is required, as the fastest transport routes are overseas, which means that the ships should have a strong logistics base.

I hope this shows where I think the timeline is going. Hlanus (talk) 04:44, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

It is good to retain your concept of Chinese colonization. The Chinese (not China) DID colonized Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia, even they established the Lanfang Republic in Western Borneo in 18th century which was a tributary state of Qing Dynasty. They DID has the idea of colonization, but it was not same with the colonization in European concept.

If you want the Empire to protect the merchants, change their traditional belief first, especially the Confucianism FirstStooge (talk) 11:41, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

I thought I already did that in the page "China's Accension". 14:01, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus (talk)Hlanus

Yes..but it was absolutely an ASB... FirstStooge (talk) 14:51, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

How so? Anyway, I edited the page with the Emperor trying to cut costs and increase profits through an experiment with empowering the merchants. If it works, then it should help the Empire promote and protect the merchants in the way I envisioned. Also, I put off the campaign against the Mongols, figuring it would take roughly 25-30 years for China to develop the military and economic might to take them on. Hlanus (talk) 21:43, April 26, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

How?

"On September 7, 1424, Zhu Gaoxi is crowned the Hongxi Emperor. His first order is to cease the voyages of the Treasure Ships and let them rot, despite the pleas of the court eunuchs. That night, a strange phenomena (most likely ball lightning) strikes the Emperor's quarters and sets it aflame. The Emperor, his Empress and virtually all his sons, perish in the flames, alongside key Confucian scholars." (China's Ascension. Heaven Judgement: 1:1-4)

That's what we called as an ASB...

What page it is? FirstStooge (talk) 00:58, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well how else do I explain the persistence of the Treasure Ships? Zhu Gaoxi is at this point pretty hell bent on ceasing the voyages, and the Confucians are well-behind him. The Treasure Fleet voyages also cost a lot and the coincidence of several natural disasters, like floods and famine, have convinced the Chinese that Heaven wants the fleets to cease. With all this in mind, I see no reason why Zhu Gaoxi would suddenly change his mind and allow them to persist. The only thing I could come up with that was even slightly plausible was if he died in a freak accident right after his order, which would appear to be Heaven's judgement on him. The onyl other thing would have been if his half-brother launched a coup, but that would have led to civil war and China would have been weakened, not strengthened.

The only other thing I have is if the Yongle Emperor invested in the fleet only and not his other projects, which were part of his plan to bloster his legitimacy, seeing as he took the throne from his nephew with the help of the eunuchs, for which he awarded them tremendous, even unprecedented, influence, which the Confucians resented. With all this in mind, it seemed the only thing that would convince the court to keep them was if the most vocal critics were killed in a freak accident that could be interpreted as Heaven's intervention.

That's my reasoning. 68.231.174.243 03:04, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Content
LG, please.

As a regular user, you hold no powers for deletion, etc. The most you can do is "undo" the changes he does, or edit them out manually.

You've also told him to stop already.

At this point, I would suggest leaving a note on his talk page to stop doing it. If that doesn't work, let me know, and I'll tell him.

Past that... The only things I can do are block him, or "protect" the page (which also bars you from editing it), or you can tell him to not edit it any longer.

If you have any questions or anything about your timeline or anything, don't hesitate to send me a note.

Lordganon (talk) 01:58, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

No, you are not wasting time.

Your PoD, actually, is very good. Not something to worry about. Only thing there is that you overstate the impact of his death slightly - but even that to some extent is good.

An accident is the way you have to go - you are very right about the effects of a coup.

Lordganon (talk) 03:33, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Here's what I have in mind instead. The next Emperor decides to keep the fleet, but cuts down on spending by restricting it to trade and coastal defence, and the ships bring back money instead of exotica. The Emperor also ends the war in Vietnam, allowing him to pull out his troops and recycle them to shore up the northern frontier as well as put men back to work on farms and workshops, allowing China to produce more trade goods. He also stops the construction of the capital of Beijing, prefering Nanjing for its access to trade and keeps Beiping as a military post, which is what it was under the Yongle Emperor decided to move, both to deter the Mongols as well as preserve his life (after a few assassination attempts). On the fleet's voyages, which do not occur for several years afterward, as China reinvigorates her economy, they bring merchants to gather economic info as well as use their skills to maximize the profits. These voyages, however, while produce enough of a profit to impress the Confucians and allow them to give more leeway to the merchants, will not in one trip pay for an all-out invasion of Mongolia or Manchuria, so the Emperor is resigned to a long preparatory term, perhaps 20-30 years, to build up his cavalry and treasury.

Any further exploration or colonization will probably have to be done under his successors, if they are under the right influence and if the Mongols are sufficiently pacified. Is this more plausible? Or is more required? 68.231.174.243 03:43, April 27, 2013 (UTC)Hlanus

Slightly rude to respond on one's own talk page.

Entirely stopping the construction of Beijing is a bit far - he'd just scale it back some. A city there would still be useful for the stated purposes, but him moving the capital makes less sense, so it would not need to be so big.

Profits are not going to change the minds of the Confucians. It's a religious and cultural thing, remember. All the profits are going to do is have moderates and everyone else be less inclined to agree with such opinions.

Actually, sending fleets further afield - though far smaller than the treasure voyage fleets - would still be possible in his reign. Even getting to Europe, for that matter. Just needs toning down overall.

Lordganon (talk) 04:15, April 27, 2013 (UTC)