Talk:Sultanate of Turkey (1983: Doomsday)/Archive

Initial Notes
Please give suggestions/comments.

And this is mostly for me, but I plan to include:

Expansion to Northern and Western Turkey  done 

Turkish Cyprus (reestablishing contact with the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus) ''' done? '''

War with Greece (sometime in the future over eastern Turkey and Turkish Straits)

Alliance with Sicily

War with Kurdistan (reconquest; Kurdistan's ally Assyria joins?)  Assyria is a de facto Kurdish protectorate 

War with Armenia (if they've expanded into eastern Turkey)

Expeditions into Syria (sort of a conquest)  done 

Caeruleus 22:21, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Updated Caeruleus 01:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Updated Caeruleus 16:02, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cyprus
First off, I'd like to say you did justice to the Federation (formerly a Confederation) of Greece and for that I appalude you. But I do have one minor issue. Cyprus is a bit of a problem-not because you have two warring factions on the island, but because of the Soviet missile attacks. We never really figured out how bad Cyprus was, but we decided that we should leave it alone, with not even Greece touching it. You might want to bring up the status of Cyprus in the talk page, the group might not even approve Southern Cyprus. But other than that, I have to say even I enjoyed reading the article, even though I should be studying for finals :D
 * And just OOC for a moment, I don't know if war with the Federation would be wise; they're a very connected state and the fastest regrowing in Southern Europe and probably the Mediterranean. It might be best for our nations instead to rebuild.

Mr.Xeight 21:39, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for commenting at the expense of your finals.

I just wrote the Cyprus portion, but I'll remove it and post it here for reference until the group approves it. I'll make sure to bring it up on the talk page.

I am trying to position Turkey as a powerful and rapidly growing state. I just wrote the entry on their conquest of Syria. If you think its too unrealistic, please say so. I'm planning to have Turkey become somewhat expansionist due to the influence of nationalits, militarists, and Islamists. Eventually, after further expansion, they'll turn their attention to Greece, unless that is all deemed to unrealistic.

Caeruleus 21:50, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

More Notes
More notes to self, feel free to comment:

Prime Minister will be Ahmet Necdet Sezer

Turkish invade Georgia and Armenia to alleviate eastern provinces

Series of buffer states created in Caucusus (Azerbaijan, Abkhazia, Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Adyghea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachai-Cherkessia, North Ossetia & South Ossetia, Krasnodar Krai)

Iran is an ally of Kurdistan. Will intervene during Turkish invasion

Turkey reaches out to Israel and Jordan as allies.

Forms Meditterrean Defense League (MDL) with Israel, Lebanon, and Jordan. Caucusus buffer states later admitted

Sicily joins MDL? Starts Meditterean cold war. MDL vs. Greece/Spain/Egypt/Alpine Confederation?

Caeruleus 01:11, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Turkish intervention in Second Sicily War on Sicilian side.

Caeruleus 01:30, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

French and Italian forces from the MNF in Lebanon headed to Turkey. Turned back by Soviet submarines. Says Cyprus wasn't attacked. From MNF

Caeruleus 20:05, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Operation Damascus
By 2003, all non-Kurdish provinces in Eastern Turkey were under the Sultanate's control. The nation was almost reunited at last. However, in the same year, the New Türkiye Party had come to power. They controlled the Prime Minstership and the Imperial Assembly. They were a high nationalistic and somewhat militarist party. They wished to expand far past Turkey's original borders and enlarge the Turkish nation. Despite the opposition of the Sultan and his allies in the Royalist and Republican People's Parties, the New Turks pushed ahead with their expansion plans.

The first of these expansions plans was Operation Damascus. Due to their association with the Soviet Union, Syria was a victim of the American nuclear strike. Their primary cities of Aleppo and Damascus were destroyed and with it most of the Syrian government. The country was plunged into chaos as people began to flee the fallout zones in search of safety. Many had fled north to Turkey, especially after the rise of the Sultanate. Taking a lesson from the Alpine Confederation, the New Turks decided to conquer and annex as much of Syria as possible and then lockdown their borders to prevent more refugees from flooding the nation. On December 7, 2003, the Turkish Imperial Army launched Operation Damascus, the invasion of Syria. The Turkish forces launched an offensive all along their border with Syria. Army Group A pushed south along the coast all the way to the Lebanese border. Army Group B pushed towards Aleppo and then on to Damascus. Army Group C pushed south and then east towards the Naht al Khabur, after which they moved south towards Damascus.

Once Army Group A reached Tartus and the Lebanese border, they began pushin further inland to solidify their gains and meet up wtih Army Group B. Army Group B had surrounded the nuclear crater that was Aleppo by the end of the first week of the operation. Afterwards, the Army Group split. One half marched towards Hamah, and ultimately Hims. The other half Ar Rusafah to link up with Army Group C. Army Group C reached the Euphrates within two weeks. Next, they marched along the south bank of the river all the way to Abu Kamal on what used to be the Syrian-Iraqi border. The north bank of the Euphrates east of the Naht al Khabur was Kurdish territory. They had orders to avoid a confrontation at all costs. Once all the army groups reached their intial objectives, Turkish High Command gave the order to continue the march towards Damascus. Once they reached Damascus, a quarentine zone was set up arond the destroyed city. Finally, they marched all the way to the Israeli border on the Golan Heights. By the end of the offensive, most of Syria was under Turkish control.

The operation itself was fairly unopposed. Much of the Syrian countryside had been wiped out by bandits or abandoned after the nuclear attacks. Several of the larger towns were in chaos. A few cities, such as Ath Thawrah, Hamah, and Hims, maintained a operating, if struggling, government. The Turkish commanders wanted to avoid conflict when possible, so the independent city-states were offered a self-governing protectorate status within the Sultanate of Turkey in exchange for paying a tax to the Turkish government and allowing Turkish military presence in the city, although it would be confined to certain bases. All the major city-states agreed to these conditions. A few of the smaller ones who had formed distasteful regimes were attacked and quickly conquered. The primary opposition to the Turkish advance were the remaining elements of the Syrian military, which had organized into gangs of bandits who controlled several smaller towns and large swaths of the countryside. However, being deprived of resupply for years, the powerful Turkish Imperial Army was able to easily defeat them, though it did slow their progress.

This offensive demonstrated the might of the Turkish miltary. Within ten weeks, the entire operation was complete. After another ten weeks, all violent resistant remaining in the provinces was dispatched efficiently. The newly gained territory was organized as a series of semi-automous governates. The more violent areas were placed under a provisional military governorship. The independent city states became self-governing protectorates. New governments were formed in the lawless areas and elections were held in six months. None of the newly acquired Syrian territory was admitted as official provinces however. The Turks weren't yet ready to take the step to becoming a multinational nation again. The new territories were given observer representation in the Imperial Assembly and a new body, the Peripheral Council, was formed as a subsidary body of the Imperial Council which represented the territories. While no other nations condemned the assault, because the Turkish government rightfully justified it as a border clearing and stablization action, it worried regional powers, especially the Confederation of Greece and the Republic of Kurdistan.

As another result of Operation Damascus, Lebanon allied with Turkey. Lebanon had grown to be a wealthy state due to having the best ports in the eastern Meditterrean. In addition, they had a powerful navy. Together, Turkey and Lebanon were a potentially powerful alliance.

(Open to alteration depending on the evolution of additions about post-Doomsday Syria)

Strength and Size
I seriously doubt it could manage being either that strong a nation or big a nation after losing its largest two cities like this.

It should likely be cut down to the starting area on your maps and the majority of the first area of expansion. I know this would destroy your history, but it looks like you're forgetting the impact of the strikes, both in and around Turkey, and the refugee crisis that would result.

For this, I'm reminded of the situation put forth for the region in a book I've read, The Last Centurion by John Ringo, in which the local communities of the area, after a global plague disaster, end up banding together in small units after the disintergration of the government. They then turned into raiders and bandits, blocking the roads and keeping out people.

The Turkish people are much less united and open then you seem to think. While it is a legitimate successor government, it would likely have to fight for a large portion of the territory in Turkey - let alone elsewhere as you have done in these wars, for which the logic of them starting - short of empire-building - makes little sense.

Kudos for the choice and place of government, mind ;)

Lordganon 11:32, June 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I didn't even think about the refugees much. So that will definitely have to be edited in. As for the government, it took six months to form and at that point it only controlled Konya province. It took another six years to reach the size they were at according to the first map. It took another 10 years to reach the second map. After that, it only took 3 years to pacify the eastern provinces. I'm not Turkish nor I have I read much about the unity of the Turkish people, but do you not think nearly 20 years would be enough to reunite them? Especially with the military quickly taking charge where it could and many survivor communities joining peacefully.


 * That being said, the Great Caucasian War and the Syrian parts may be a little far out there. Caeruleus 16:00, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the refugees would likely end up destroying everything in maybe a 50 mile radius around the blast zone at Ankara. Then the fallout would go northeast, roughly, leaving refugees fleeing from that.

Six years to reach the first map size would be accurate, I suspect, as long as its six years after the establishment of the new government.

However, due to a combination of the chaos and geography, the northern provinces shown on the second map would be unlikely to reclaimed just yet - not only would access be through the mountains, with the area Ankara is in largely unusable passage would be even harder. The fallout from Istanbul would also fall over the western portion of that area. Taking off a row two provinces deep or so along the coast of the Black Sea may be a good idea. The area highlighted on this map - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkey_black_sea.jpg - plus the area in the bulge on it, is what i mean.

The Aegean Coast is fine - there is lowlands along the coast, eventually passing through Thracian territory, which would make that area accessible, but not the Black Sea Coast due to the Greeks. Another reason to hate them ;)

The tall mountain range in the Northeast of Turkey would prevent expansion in that direction, especially in so short a time span. Much of the Turkish military was located there at the time, both for anti-Kurdish operations and defense against the Soviets, which would mean for well-armed and fortified opponents there. It would also be radiated, which would mean parts would be impassable, meaning that a war in the area would be immensely difficult and expansion would be hard as well.

Look at this map, may help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkey_topo.jpg

As for the wars, the Caucasian War is far, far, far too much. However, The Syrian War would make sense so long as the context is changed a little, and the current concern with clarification is remedied. Call it a combination of defeating bandits, etc. in the border area with Syria that harass Turkish territory and gaining security for the city of Antakya, the main city in the little bit there that extends downward. Maybe a little bit of empire-building too.

Lordganon 17:44, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I didn't think about the topography or the heavy military presence in eastern Turkey. So, based off what you said, Turkey would look like this in 2000:

And this in 2005.

Is that about right?

And a major theme to this new Turkish government is their desire to expand, mainly for nationalistic and security reasons. The Syrian and Caucasian Wars are a result of that. Caeruleus 19:07, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Its a good theme for expansion, but a motive like mentioned may be a good idea, make it seem less aggressive.

I'd use the map you have marked as 2000 as being the present map, honestly.

Maybe take half the territory you have marked as 2000 and that'd be 2000, with the whole thing being the present day. It's just too much damaged territory to digest, even with a loyal population, in that time span.

This Turkey would have the priority of expanding itself to the south side of the mountains and blocking the passes to prevent bandits from attacking, and along the more flat and moist coastal regions.

Lordganon 23:57, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Strikes
I think there would be more than just the two strikes. Diyarbakır and Eskişehir house major air bases, Izmir is the southern naval headquarters as well as housing a major army base. Gölcük naval base would likely have been hit as well. Izmir at least would definitely be hit.Oerwinde 08:16, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm basing the number of nuclear strikes off the map on Maps (1986: Doomsday). It shows only two strikes, so that's what I'm going with. Having only two strikes is easier to work with anyway. Caeruleus 18:36, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The map is inaccurate, and has been argued every time it is used as justification. Izmir is not only a major population center, it is also a major air, navy and army base. It will be nuked. Being a NATO member, a major military power, and being right next door, the Soviets wouldn't let Turkey off with only two nukes while Spain, France, and Canada get annihilated.Oerwinde 09:42, June 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Turkey got lucky then. They were able to intercept several missiles and others were duds. The result was only two nuclear strikes on Turkey. Caeruleus 06:22, June 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good luck getting gradutated then.Oerwinde 08:19, June 26, 2010 (UTC)