Talk:2009 Saguenay War (1983: Doomsday)/Archive

War!
Hi everyone. I was wondering what the community thinks about a war between Saguenay and Canada soon, probably around a week from now because that's when I'll be most available to work on it. Here's a partial timeline that I thought up in my head: Eventually (I'm not sure when) the Canadians will have an election and the Canada First Party will be voted in. They introduce mass conscription and significantly increase military production. Eventually a large invasion of Gaspe will bring it back into Canadian hands, but the Canadian army is worn out. Invasion of Saguenay proper is not feasible, and Canadians open up negotiations with Saguenay in about October or November.
 * 1) Sept 9: Saguenay Premier is assassinated by a member of the Canada First Party (not by the government, and by his (or her?) own volition. This person is captured by Saguenay officials and they learn he is from the Canada Remainder Provinces.
 * 2) Sept 10: An official declaration of war is sent by radio to St. John's.
 * 3) Sept 11: Saguenay troops mobilise and begin marching to the Gaspe peninsula.
 * 4) Sept 13: The first fighting begins on the Gaspe peninsula. The Canadian troops are unprepared as they have just recently learned that war was declared.
 * 5) Sept 16: The Gaspe peninsula falls to the invading army. Canadians are shocked that it was taken so easily. The Canadian government loses many supporters.
 * 6) Sept 24: The Canadians launch an attack on the Gaspe peninsula, which fails. From this time on, the war consists mostly of both sides using hit and run tactics against the other, the Canadians based in a fort somewhere in northwest New Brunswick.

This is all subject to change, of course. --DarthEinstein 14:52, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

seems a good idea I was thinking We could send LoN peacekeepers to the Zone and am LoN mandate to order seguerney to withdraw there forces fom cabadian soil--Owen1983 15:36, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea -- though Saguenay isn't recognised by LoN so they probably wouldn't comply. And any LoN peacekeepers wouldn't arrive immediately- I'm thinking sometime in early October. --DarthEinstein 16:41, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering that this war would effect both nations histories, I'm wondering if a seperate article covering the war is more appropriate, with a short summary on each nation article with a link to the war article. What do you think?  Mitro 17:18, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for a good war ;). Benkarnell 18:52, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Mitro: Good idea! --DarthEinstein 21:27, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Aroostook/Superior involvement

 * In my opinion, it is likely that Aroostook would enter the war on the side of Sagueney against Canada, due to the large Franco-Canadian minority, and political activism revolving around the question on annexation. However, this would be just as divisive as the War of 1812 for the United States. The Republic of Superior would send weapons and advisors to Sagueney, though not actual military units. This position is taken in order to possibly weaken Canada’s influence in the League will be marginalized, so as to allow their entry. In regards to Peacekeepers, only those from either the Celtic Union, Portugal, or the Nordic Union would be able to respond effectively, and with any speed. There is no way to ensure equality, without taking away equality. 23:10, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem with Aroostook is that it still is in the proposal stage. But assuming Aroostook does exist, I would think that they would not join right away, but would only join after a few weeks of debate. Their attacks would be concentrated on the Canadian portions of New Brunswick and also the province of Nova Scotia.--DarthEinstein 23:38, September 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * I take that back, the Republic of Superior would likely have sent Republican Guard previously to support the government of Sagueney, when in reality they are already fighting the Canadians. This is no small part due to the Republican Administration and Congress. They will likely take part in the war as an expeditionary force. However, if this were the case, Saguney would not be driven back, having been given the time to fortify, along with being equipped with “modern” weapons and training. In regards to Aroostook, they should already be canon. I thought I explained that the blast would moderately damage the area at worst, with fallout not being a major issue.Lahbas 00:48, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets not forget that there would also be non-French Canadians in Aroostook from New Brunswick (some NB territory is under Aroostook control). I think that would be enough to keep Aroostook out of the war or possibly tear the nation apart into sectional fighting.  Mitro 01:19, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey check it out I added a rough draft for the infobox we can use for the war. Mitro 02:21, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Lahbas: Why would Superior have modern weapons and training, and Canada wouldn't? Canada has had contact with the world at large for far longer. Canada, I think, outnumbers Saguenay. --DarthEinstein 02:38, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would assume that the Canadian Army would be rather small, with funds being spent in fields other than the military. I made a mistake about them not having modern weapons, but it could be that the obsolete weapons from one or two decades ago are still widely in use (due to much easier production). Sagueney, in the meantime, likely has a professional army, and devotes a large part of their budget toward the military. That, and both foreign and military aid from the Republic of Superior, and possibly from Aroostook, makes it at least equal in strength to Canada. Basically, it could be America’s version of the Russo-Japanese War. Lahbas 02:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the only one who has modern weapons at this point is Canada. As a member of the ruling council of the LoN and one of the founding members of the, I think they would have access to the best ANZC and SAC weapons that money could buy.  Meanwhile Superior and Saugenay are relatively small and isolated from world trade.  They won't have access to the markets necessary to support an advanced arms industry, at least one more advanced then Canada.  They may have a better trained military (Saugenay fearing Canadian annexation and Superior fighting to establish superiority around the Great Lakes) and that may make up for the tech advantage the Canadians will have.  Speaking of the ADC, I wounder if they would be involved in the fighting at all?  Mitro 03:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Republican Guard Companies never number lower than 800. Therefore, I would assume that there are 856 Personnel within the company at the start of hostilities. Additional forces may be sent by Superior, but it would likely be limited to Republican Guard, who are under the direct command of the President. As a result, there may be as many as five or six companies involved in the fighting by the time of the Canadian Counter-Offensive (Therefore, about 5,000). As for Aroostook, you are right on the mark; sectional differences between refugees would rip apart the confederation. However, the American and Franco-Canadian camps, who would tend to favor Sagueney (largely due to media campaigns similar as in the US during WWI), while the small Anglo-Canadian bloc favors Canada (Remember, a lot will have likely traveled back to Canada over the years, or at least into the newly established Nova Scotia). As a result, the government will likely be pressured into war much like the US was during the Spanish American War (Just without the Maine, ironically). A brief Civil War with Pro-Canadian areas would likely result, continued with an invasion of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Lahbas 02:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether the ethnic Americans would be fully behind Saugenay. I think they would be split as well and probably a slight majority closer to Canada. Honestly I think the division is deep enough that Aroostook will sit out the war, but "volunteers" for both side may cross the border to fight.  [EDIT] Also I'm not so sure about how many Anglo-Canadians will leave for Canada when French Canadians don't leave for Saugenay.  Some territory of Aroostook was formerly Canadian territory, and those Canadians could have lived there for generations.  Even then some of the refugees could have already established roots in Aroostook and it is really difficult to rip them out to go to Newfoundland or Prince Edward Island.  Many would already have an investment in Aroostook, maybe even some power.  Mitro 03:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Retaking Gaspe
I think it might be feasible for Canada to retake Gaspe. First of all, Canada begins military production at the beginning of the war, and after the election in which the Canada First party comes to power, they start mass conscription and increase war production even more. Also a revolt in Quebec in support of the liberating army could distract the Saguenayans and Superiorians. And unlike with Saguenay and Superior, Canadian relations with Aroostook are fine, though individuals would obviously support one side or the other and go fight, as Mitro said. --DarthEinstein 04:02, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Why would there be a revolt in Quebec, when most of it is not even under the effective control of the government? In my mind, Franco-Canadians would volunteer to aid Sangueney rather than fight against them, and be used as a policing force against the Anglo-Canadian minority. The very battle-ground you are speaking of is where partisans are going to become a problem. Lahbas 04:10, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * A major point we have to make is if the Republic of Superior is going to send the regular army in or not. The Republican Guard is a definite, but the Armed Forces in general can only be forced into a combat zone with the authorization of Congress. There is a high chance it would be authorized, in which case 150,000-200,000 RSA soldiers enter Quebec. If not, the results are rather unpredictable, though a Canadian tactical victory is likely. Lahbas 04:30, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Language isn't everything. The people in Gaspe have grown up in Canada, and the Prime Minister himself is from Gaspe. And what I meant by a revolt in Quebec was a revolt in Gaspe. --DarthEinstein 04:42, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * A question I have is why invade gaspesie and not nouveau quebec since it is closer and thus easier to access by the saguenayan forces?--Marcpasquin 13:51, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Gaspesie is more populated and the main bulk of the army on the continent is there. On the northern borders there would be small skirmishes, but the main movement of the war is in Gaspesie. --DarthEinstein 15:54, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact that gaspesie is so heavily defended makes it all the more likely that saguenay would *not* attack it but would go after a better target. Also, nouveau-quebec has hydro-electricity dams which would make it a better target. --114.73.1.198 21:02, September 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * My reason for an attack on Gaspe is so that they could smash the large army in Gaspesie before they were ready. They would have to deal with the army eventually, so they wanted to do it when the enemies are unprepared. Though, you are correct - they probably wouldn't ignore Nouveau Quebec. I think that an army sent there would not conquer though, but merely pillage. They would want to destroy those dams you mentioned and cause general unrest, but the area is too large for an occupying army. --DarthEinstein 22:18, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Guerrilla warfare
Even with the war ending two months approx. after it started, I would still put my hypothetical money on the Saguenayans. The reasons are in the history books. The Americans were able to defeat the Brits after the Yanks adopted modern Guerrilla tactics. They were able to slaughter a large force of Brits and then sneak of into the woods to strike again. Transplant these highly effective tactics to this senario, and the Canadians don't have a chance. I don't want to seem unpatriotic, but the US military was better armed even in

And then there was the declaration of war from the CoG to Sicily, so there might be a war afterall. Mr.Xeight 02:05, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * The power of the American guerilla during the Revolution is a myth. The American Revolution was won primarily by set peice battles, specifically by the French.  If France had not supported the Americans during the war its likely that there would not be a USA.
 * As for this universe, if Saguenay has to resort to guerrila tactics, that means Canada has control over most of the country. No nation ever defends itself by using guerrial tactics, those tactics are only used after you lost the war and you are trying to drive out an occupying power.  Mitro 03:38, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

The Premier of Sagueney is supposed to be shot today. Just a heads up. In regards to guerilla tactics, that could easily be used by the Sagueyens against the Canadians in the Gaspe Peninsula. Even without popular support, Sagueney could operate a few supply bases outside of the peninsula, while the bulk of its forces take control of the country side, besieging the Canadians within the cities, and attacking them and their supply routes. The Republican Guard itself is trained in guerilla warfare, and may very well have passed this knowledge on. Lahbas 14:47, September 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll get to work on writing about the war soon, probably this afternoon. Guerilla-wise, once Saguenay has captured the Gaspe peninsula, taking the cities and driving Canada out, they can no longer use guerilla tactics as they become based in the cities, not in a moveable base. --DarthEinstein 16:32, September 9, 2009 (UTC)